Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 2:11, 12

J.T. The thought is to consider living with Christ. It says, "They lived and reigned with the Christ", living and reigning. In the passage in 2 Timothy we have how the living is reached, "For if we have died together with him, we shall also live together"; and how the reigning is reached: "If we endure, we shall also reign together". The dying is in view of living, and the enduring in view of reigning. The word 'endure' points to experience of a peculiar kind, and we are told in the note that it has a double sense in English, 'to last', and 'to go through suffering patiently'; it is the latter here. Reigning will thus apply to those who have endured down here. The hope is that while these passages have a prophetic bearing they may also have a practical, experimental bearing for us as we realise that if we are to administer in a governing sense, we must first learn how to live, to live with Christ, and then how to reign, to reign in the sense of influence and government in the assembly.

A.R. Are the things set out in these scriptures a reward for being faithful here?

J.T. Well, it is put that way: "They lived and reigned with the Christ". But what precedes that is, "And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years", Revelation 20:4. It is clearly put in the sense of reward, that they are worthy of this honour.

A.R. The overcomer in Smyrna is given a crown of life. Would that be a reward?

J.T. The word is, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life" (chapter 2: 10). The lesson to us would be that what we go on with now in time in a moral way fits us to enter on official dignity; that is viewed or conferred as a reward. The apostle says, "Henceforth the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will render to me in that day; but not only to me, but also to all who love his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:8); so we are not coming into anything in this respect that is not already known in some sense. There may be, and doubtless will be, some surprises to us, but what we are coming into is already known normally. Living and reigning are already known.

Ques. Would the mighty men of David's reign who were given places in the kingdom of Solomon correspond with this?

J.T. I would think so.

Ques. It says of one that he was afflicted in all that in which David was afflicted. That would be like suffering with Christ.

J.T. Quite so; they had already experienced things with David that perhaps they could not have experienced fully with Solomon, but with Solomon they would be confirmed; and in the antitype, at least, we are in glory with Christ, glorified together with Him. There is a certain peacefulness with Solomon that the mighty men could not have had with David. The Lord says, "But ye are they who have persevered with me in my temptations", Luke 22:28.

C.A.M. The second clause in verse 4 says, "They sat upon them, and judgment was given to them"; that is one sentence, and then the next sentence speaks of "the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony". Would it be right to apply that first sentence to the saints in the present dispensation, and the second to those beheaded after we are gone?

J.T. I think so; it is a classified position. "And

I saw thrones"; that is a general position; "and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them", that is a certain class; then "the souls of those beheaded ...", that is another set or class but linked up with the former; then another group, "and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their fore head and hand". It looks as if the Spirit has put them down here in a classified way, but all as one whole on the thrones. Some come in later. The first set would include, I understand, this present time. But it is the living and the reigning that is in mind to be stressed, how we are to learn to live so that we are not surprised, having already known something of it, when we come into the fulness of living and reigning with Christ.

A.A.T. Are these the same ones that are mentioned in the end of verse 6, "they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years"?

J.T. It goes on to say in verse 5, "The rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This is the first resurrection". That all fits in with what we have just read. And then, "Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years". This is a further statement governing the previous passage, that is verses 4 and 5. I would say they are the same general class only they are said to be priests, priests of God and of the Christ; not simply priests unto God but of God, as if it is a sort of office they have, not simply a priestly service Godward, but priests of God and of the Christ as a general position of service. It may extend in help to others in the millennium. In chapter 1 it is that He has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father".

F.S.C. Would it show here that not all those in the first resurrection are raised simultaneously?

J.T. Well, that is a wonderful thing. It is all classed as one thing, indeed it is all one thing, but it is clear from the facts stated that it begins with ourselves according to 1 Thessalonians, although according to Matthew it had already begun as a testimony after the Lord rose from the dead. "Many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many", Matthew 27:52, 53. They had part in the first resurrection although they had part in it hundreds of years before ourselves. Then there are those who are raised according to 1 Thessalonians 4, including, I suppose, all the sleeping saints up to that time. But then others will die through persecutions, as we learn here; they will be beheaded: "The souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand". These come in literally later, however short the time, but it is all one thing, nevertheless. The first resurrection covers them all. The rest of the dead are held in abeyance for one thousand years; they do not come into the liberty and glory of resurrection.

A.R. Will those that die be greater than those that go through the persecution? They will be reigning with Christ in that sense.

J.T. They have all part in the first resurrection. Of course there are those who are quickened; they do not die at all.

J.R. Would quickening in Ephesians 2 help us to know how to live?

J.T. We will refer to that scripture: "You, being dead in your offences and sins ... God, being rich in

mercy, ... (we too being dead in offences,) has quickened us with the Christ, (ye are saved by grace,) and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". Your thought is that the quickening here and the raising enter into the idea of living with Christ?

J.R. Yes; living now.

J.T. Just so. We have also a passage in 1 Thessalonians: "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who has died for us, that whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him" (chapter 5:9, 10). So that it is a strong thought in the Scriptures. Colossians has it too: "You ... he has quickened together with him"; and then there is this side of the position in 2 Timothy, that dying precedes the idea of living; I think the passage really amplifies that in Revelation, "The word is faithful; for if we have died together with him, we shall also live together"; it is not only that we are "dead in trespasses and sins", as in Ephesians, but we do it as an act of our own, dying with Him having a moral force to it.

W.W.M. Is that the meaning in Romans 6"For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of His resurrection"?

J.T. That is the same thought. We have the word 'if' in these various scriptures. "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him". "If", so that it is a sort of hypothesis for us to face. It is open to us to die and the question is whether we have taken it up. "The word is faithful; for if we have died together with him ...".

It is a state reached. We have reached that. "If we have died"-that is our side; it is our action.

C.A.M. It would not be merely the solution of the moral question, but that we are going to enter into life because Christ has died, and that we pass through

death to do it. It is a sort of moral necessity, but there is also the idea of affection for Christ.

J.T. Quite so, "Where thou diest, will I die". It is your action.

C.N. Would it be right to say that life is involved in the idea of being beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and in not doing homage to the beast, and so on? Would the kind of life they lived necessitate these things?

J.T. Yes; they are honoured because in time they have stood out against the evil even unto death, because beheading is a very positive idea of death. The allusion would be, I suppose, to antichrist or the man of sin, getting rid of them, getting rid of persons like that who had such intelligence. Beheading is to remove the intelligence that would be in the enemy's way. We know that Goliath was beheaded. It alludes to Satan's resentment of any whom God has used in intelligence in the testimony. Such a man knows what he is doing and he is, dying for it.

W.W.M. It is important to see that the 'if' is connected with identification with Him in the likeness of His death, but it says, "So also we shall be of his resurrection". There is no 'if' about the latter statement.

J.T. The 'if' is what you have taken on, whether you have died with Him deliberately, because the idea of dying of yourself is very strongly pronounced in the Scriptures. We have learned to lay down our lives. We lay down our lives for the brethren as He has laid down His life for us. But here it is, "If we have died together with him". The "together", I suppose, would allude to us and Christ.

A.R. Paul says, "I die daily".

J.T. That shows how he used the commodity of death. He tells us elsewhere that death is ours. But what good is it if we do not use it? So that David says of Goliath's sword, "There is none like that".

It is the kind of sword to use; that is, it is real death; but it is not to be wrapped up behind the ephod, it is to be used. David said he could use it, and in the government of God he was forced to use it, but he knew what its value was.

R.W.S. Do the 'if' here and the several 'ifs' in Colossians suggest that there may not be many who are prepared to go this way? "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him", Romans 6:8.

J.T. It is open to us. It would have no force at all unless the opportunity of dying is open to us. In that scripture in Colossians it is already done, "If ye have died". That is already done, so that we are in that status, that class of people who have reached a point through dying. And then we go on into living with Christ, so that it is not a new thing; it will be no surprise that we have such distinction, because we have already gone through the process.

F.H.L. Is the practical working out of it seen in "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus", 2 Corinthians 4:10?

J.T. Quite so; it would be that kind of thing, the dying of Jesus. It is not simply to see Him as dead, as in John 6, as food, but He is dying. It is the dying of Jesus, "that the life also of Jesus may be manifested". That is the way it works out.

A.B.P. Is it distinct from the idea of putting him to death?

J.T. I think it is; that is, putting to death the body of sin. It is something that is deserving of that at your hands; is that what you mean? It deserves it at your hands because you know the thing you are dealing with, how provocative it is and how obnoxious to God. It ought to be dealt with by your hands.

A.B.P. Is this dying more in relation to the order of man, not necessarily a question of the active

opposition against what is of God, but the character of man that has been ended in the death of Christ?

J.T. Yes; he deserves to be put to death; the word is, "Put to death therefore".

A.B.P. "Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth, fornication, uncleanness, vile passions, evil lust, and unbridled desire, which is idolatry", Colossians 3:5.

J.T. They are very deserving of it! The word 'therefore' shows it is a sequential thing, the chapter begins with it: "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ" (that refers to chapter 2), "seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God ... . Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth", that is, the moral features of the natural in us that we are well aware of in their character and offensiveness to God, and in the damage they do. There ought to be no hesitation about it; there is even a certain amount of happiness in doing it according to Psalm 137; even the little ones of Babylon are put to death. It is a sort of pleasure, if one may use the word, to terminate the thing that is so awful, that is so disturbing, so objectionable to God.

F.S.C. Do you think the Lord's teaching on the mount laid the basis for the apostles' teaching?

J.T. Do you mean Matthew 5? Just so. It is a long chapter, in fact there are three chapters, authoritative words; you might call it the Mount of Legislation, but it is legislation against things that are so offensive and the establishment of what is right as over against them.

Ques. Is it right to say that in David's reign Joab, Shimei and Abiathar never learned to live and reign with David, because they allowed certain features of the flesh they did not judge?

J.T. That is good. He would have put them to death himself, and rightly, and perhaps have had a

certain satisfaction in doing it, but in the government of God he had to leave it for Solomon to do. You can see that in his mind they were deserving of death, that they could not five and reign with him. They might in a certain sense outwardly five and reign, but not in the true sense, because living involves affection.

D.P. Would Abraham in circumcising himself and his household go as far as that of which you are speaking?

J.T. That is the idea, I am sure. Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before thee!" (Genesis 17:18); but that is putting a man in the presence of God that God did not care for. Ishmael was circumcised like the rest; circumcision goes a certain way to it, but Colossians makes the thing thorough. It is the circumcision of Christ; it is the real thing, what He endured in the way of suffering.

C.A.M. I was thinking of Jacob somewhat in that connection. It says in Genesis 49:28, 29, "Every one according to his blessing he blessed them. And he charged them, and said to them, I am gathered to my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave". He must have faced an immensity in that as he thought of all those sons. Was he not stressing to them the necessity of burial, the great meaning there was in it? There was a history really that went into burial.

J.T. He wanted to be buried himself and to be buried in a certain place, where resurrection would take place; so that we can well afford to accept burial in view of resurrection, "For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death, so also we shall be of his resurrection". I am not sure that I would connect Jacob's instructions as to his burial with any evil-doing. What we are speaking of now in Colossians, the putting to death and the putting off, is dealing with evil-doing. But then there is such a thing as dying by the will of God in the light of resurrection, and there is nothing attached to that,

nothing blameworthy. It is a question of Machpelah, a burial ground that belongs to the Lord, a place in which He keeps His own, "the dead in Christ", until the time of the resurrection.

C.A.M. That is just what I thought. Would it be right to say it was not so much a moral question as a matter of privilege?

J.T. Yes. It was at the threshing-floor of Atad that they stopped as they came round into Canaan to bury Jacob. It is a place of fruitfulness, like the threshing of the corn. 1 Corinthians 15:44 links with it. Whatever it is, it is all in the light of resurrection, of sowing to be raised. "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body". So that I think our burials in that way become precious. Our baptisms, of course, are too, but usually baptism comes in to deal with what was objectionable. "Why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name", Acts 22:16. It is burial in both cases but Jacob's burial was according to the will of God; burial to be raised.

R.W.S. Is there not a peculiar sweetness about this word 'together' in 2 Timothy? All that believed were together in the pristine days, but as we move on these moral lines that thought is not lost, is it?

J.T. I think not. Ephesians, as we have already said, points to our being raised up together, not with Christ, but with one another. God has raised us up together, not with Christ but in Christ. But "together" refers to one another which, as you say, began at Pentecost and is going on to eternity. Here it is together with Christ that is in mind, I think. It seems to be the teaching of the word; not that we are raised with one another but with Christ. We, together, are unitedly raised with Christ, that is the force of the word. "The word is faithful; for if we have died together with him", that is, all of us viewed

as taking on the thing; what Ruth took on, "Where thou diest will I die". We have all taken that on, and the Lord is telling us it will be that way always: 'You are to be living with Me, going all of you together, all of you with Me together'. That is the force of the passage, because there is a moral bearing to it. The "if" is hypothetical, and it reverts back to me personally, whether I have faced that matter; whether I have accepted with the brethren this great thought of dying with Christ, dying together with Him. These meetings ought to lead to that. We are speaking to one another unitedly and we are enjoying something, but have we faced this matter together of Christ's death? If we have, the word is, "We shall also live together". It is a precious thought, all of us, every one of us. We are here together now today, but we want that "together" to go on for ever, and it really does in our unitedly coming to the point of dying, laying down our lives in the testimony for Him, the kind of way He laid down His life.

A.B.P. Does this synchronise with the apostle's judgment when he says, "Having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died", 2 Corinthians 5:14? Is that the process of arriving at this?

J.T. That is good. We judge; it is a judgment. "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died". That is a fact as before God, but I think this goes a bit further. It is a decision to which we have come unitedly, all together, the brethren in fellowship. I think that being in the fellowship we ought to come to this, doing things together. It is our time to die, it is a time of dying for the Lord Jesus. He has done it and we are deciding to do it together.

A.B.P. Does it refer to His death, not as under guilt, but as the One who in every movement was pleasurable to God, for the purpose of terminating one order of man to bring in another?

J.T. Just so. And you feel that in joining in with this as in these meetings and in our fellowship, it is something to come to, to unite in together. It settles everything, really, if you unite in this point: to die together with Christ; you and I and all of us to join in this. The "if" leads on to the fact that we shall live together too. There will be no separation.

Ques. One of the apostles had this in mind, do you think? Thomas said, "Let us also go, that we may die with him", John 11:16.

J.T. That is good. That is one of the assets he has to his credit. He has some debits, but that one is mentioned in John ii, when they were going to Judaea, as if he felt there was opposition to the Lord in Judaea, and he was taking it on himself, and he was ready to die. He was going to join in. I believe that is the idea.

Rem. He says, "Let us also go". The "us" is emphatic. It is remarkable.

J.T. Yes, the "us" is emphatic, so that Thomas is seeking to draw them all into it.

C.N. Does verse 10 of our chapter show that the apostle is labouring to this very end, to bring the saints into the truth of what we are speaking about?

J.T. Yes, I think so. It is what Paul could say, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things. Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead, of the seed of David, according to my glad tidings, in which I suffer even unto bonds as an evil-doer" (verses 7 - 9). Then he says, "For this cause I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain", showing how near he was to Christ in this matter and how his mind was running along the Lord's way as He entered into death for the elects' sake. Why should we not all join in this matter, not simply in the fellowship, but in this great matter of identification with Christ in death? Because it is a time of danger, just as Thomas

said, "Let us ... die with him". It is a time when we are called upon for that sort of thing.

F.N.W. Is there a certain leverage toward going this way in "Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead"?

J.T. That is good; it is something to have in your mind. There is a title in the Psalms we have often noted, "To bring to remembrance"; and of course the Lord's supper involves it.

C.A.M. I suppose it would help us in our viewpoint as to those that are suffering on the continent of Europe and our young brothers. You really face the thing with them. You do not just hope there will be some turn that will bring in peaceful conditions, you face what it really means.

J.T. That has often come up during the past four years, what our brethren have been suffering. "Remember prisoners, as bound with them", Hebrews 13:3. The Spirit of God would draw us into what is going on. We are immune to it in actuality because of certain physical and political conditions, but the thing is there, and if you are not there physically, at any rate you want to be in it thoroughly in your heart and mind. It is the time for this, that we are to die and then proceed into life.

J.S. Do you think the Lord is stressing the fact of making the assembly ready to cross over?

J.T. It looks that way. It seems as if the Jordan stresses that. There is so much detail in the book of Joshua so that they should go into the land in a suitable spirit and way. The ark has gone in before us, as it were for us. It is there holding the judgment back, holding death back, and we want to join in that rightly, not in any disorganised way when we cross the Jordan, but in order.

Ques. What is the meaning of the word in Matthew 16:24, 25: "If any one desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow

me. For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it"?

J.T. It is not the Lord's cross there, it is your own cross; that is, God in His way has put in your way the means of dying, and it is really a painful thing. As it was to Christ, so it is to us, but it is your matter; it is your death; it is your cross. It is a painful thing as Christ's was. I think that is what is meant, so that if you lose your life you will save it; that is the way it works out.

A.A.T. Does this suffering qualify one for reigning? This verse also speaks of reigning together.

J.T. That is the point we should now go on to. We have already dealt with the word, "If we have died together with him, we shall also live together". The next thing is, "If we endure, we shall also reign together". As already remarked, the word 'endure' means that you go through, go to the end of the war, for the duration, as we say, and do the best possible, but that you really go through it triumphantly. The word is that. 'Endure' has a double sense in English. 'To last' is the first idea, that whatever may come, you do your best to go through. Ungodly men have to do that and they are doing it. But the other meaning is that you go through suffering patiently; that is, you go through according to heaven, according to the example set by the Lord, and that qualifies you for reigning; "If we endure, we shall also reign together".

A.A.T. Job is a sample of endurance.

J.T. James says, "Ye have heard of the endurance of Job, and seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is full of tender compassion and pitiful", James 5:11. Job helps us, but you really want Christ for the example of endurance. Take a man like Jonah: he endured too, but he made rather a poor hand of it, though he did fairly well in being cast into the depths.

"Cast me forth", he says; that meant that he was going to face the thing because others were suffering on account of him.

A.R. How do we get the benefits Paul speaks of? He says, "For this cause I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory". Are we getting the benefits of somebody else's enduring? That is how Paul puts it here.

J.T. That is how Paul acted. What a noble thing that was! that they might obtain something because of what he does, that they might gain something from what he endures. Now that is brought down to ourselves in verse 12: "If we endure, we shall also reign together". It is not just as Paul endured but as Christ endured, the way the thing was gone through by Him.

F.N.W. Would you say something about the matter of boasting according to Romans 5? "We boast in hope of the glory of God. And not only that, but we also boast in tribulations, knowing that tribulation works endurance" (verses 2, 3).

J.T. Just so; "Tribulation works endurance", so that experience is stretched out for you. There are many things you have to go through, but you are learning through them. There are certain things that work out results, and the thing that works endurance in you makes you a man like this, that you go through the thing according to God.

J.R. Have we not the power of God to do it "Strengthened with all power according to the might of his glory unto all endurance and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father", Colossians 1:11, 12?

J.T. That is a very good word. I hope the brethren will notice it. It is a Colossian touch. It is divine power that is needed for going through things in this way as Christ did.

F.H.L. Would not the apostle have been affected by Stephen's ministry and martyrdom?

J.T. Just so; it would be a lesson to him that was never to be forgotten. He was bearing the clothes of them that stoned him, and he afterward called Stephen, a martyr. He tells the Lord he was His martyr, as if he was the representative of martyrdom.

F.H.L. It says in Acts 9:31, "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit". Would that not be in measure an outflowing of the result seen in Stephen?

J.T. Just so; I think God had greatly advantaged the testimony at that time in bringing in a man like Stephen. It is the idea of the acacia wood, the humanity of Christ expressed in Stephen, so like the Lord Jesus.

A.B.P. The sisters will be included in this reigning, will they not? The brothers have the most active part in administrative matters now, but it would not be right to exclude the sisters from having part in the reigning in the day to come.

J.T. So that they can ask their husbands at home what happened in the care meeting, so that they can join in and carry things in prayer. Not that one would suggest that the care meeting is a reigning time; it is really more agonising, so as to reach an end in due time in assembly authority. But it certainly needs this endurance.

D.P. Would the difficulties we encounter every day all be used of God to help us, to bring out this feature of endurance?

J.T. I think so. We have already referred to it in Romans 5; we might look at it again so as to have it clearly in our minds. There are certain workers that God gives us in verses 3 - 5: "Knowing that tribulation works endurance; and endurance, experience;

and experience, hope; and hope does not make ashamed". The idea of the workers runs through all these things, that is, the idea of what works, meaning what helps us. Peter enlarges on this, showing how one christian quality works out another christian quality, so that there is a continual sequence: that in our faith we are to have virtue, and in our virtue knowledge, and so forth (2 Peter 1:5).

W.W.M. Is that why James suggests this line? He says, "Count it all joy, my brethren, when ye fall into various temptations" (chapter 1: 2).

J.T. That is just what he means-all joy. That is, he triumphs. If a depressing thing is gone through in this way it is triumph. It is really the exhibiting of christianity, Christ's life in adversity.

W.W.M. In Romans 8 it says, "We are more than conquerors".

J.T. Quite so, "Through him that has loved us".

R.W.S. The disciples at the Supper have reigning in mind. Then the Lord in the garden a little later on, being in conflict, prays more earnestly; and then there is the awful pressure, sweat as great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Then He goes to the disciples and speaks to them, saying, "Why sleep ye? rise up and pray", Luke 22:46. I wondered if that would help as to what we are saying now, the way the Lord comes to them and is so tender with them.

J.T. There you really reach the acme of the Lord's path of suffering. The cross, of course, is the fulness of it, Gethsemane being the place of pressure. The Lord made disposition of the disciples in that place so that they might be fully in the position and get the gain of it. He was pressed; the devil was there to do it; he was a sort of servant to do it, and to work the thing out in the winepress of Gethsemane, and the disciples were to be brought into it. We know how they felt, how they came short, but still, in due

time, they were all brought into it. The Lord says to Peter, Some day you will come into it. "When thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire", John 21:18. So that we do not go through anything very well. That is what is meant in the awkwardness of the disciples with the Lord, but the Spirit brought them into it in due time.

W.W.M. Do you think that shows us the difference between Joshua and Caleb and the mass of the people going through the wilderness? The others rebel at it, but they had the joy of what was on the other side. They really would represent life in that way.

J.T. They had much better times than the others. Caleb said he had not lost anything; I am just as strong, he said, as I was forty-five years ago. He had lost nothing; he had gained.

A.R. He said he had wholly followed the Lord.

A.A.T. Did you say reigning is influence?

J.T. It is. A brother has just remarked about the sisters coming into this: it is an open door to go into. It is a time of suffering, and if we have died with Him, we shall live with Him, together; it is all of us coming into it together. At the care meeting we will say we have agonising things and we go through them together on the Saturday night, and the Lord's day is the time of living together with Him. Then when the time of action comes in assembly dignity it is a sort of reigning. Things are done in heavenly dignity, and the assembly is really reigning with Christ in the thing. Everything is to be done in order, but there is dignity attaching to it. I believe it works out just that way. That is, those that live with Him are glorified to reign with Him.

C.A.M. It puts a great meaning on what we are doing now in a small way.

J.T. I am sure it does. It is right that we should have it in our minds that things are great. Assembly

action will be fully displayed in the millennium, but it is taken on now with a measure of understanding. Then we shall have the rule over certain cities, but really we have already come to it now.

Ques. Does this reigning time you are speaking about apply now, or has it only a future bearing?

J.T. It has a future bearing; but we are just trying to apply this passage in Timothy at the present time in a moral way.

Rem. We need strength to endure. A child cannot endure much; the thought of endurance involves strength.

J.R. It says, "Strengthened with all power according to the might of his glory unto all endurance and longsuffering with joy; giving thanks to the Father", Colossians 1:11, 12.

J.T. That is it; it is how you go through it according to Colossians. That is not a child's way. Children do not come into this; it is men. Colossians contemplates that.

Ques. Is the writer of the Hebrews stressing that when he says they were not able to take meat? They were like children in a way, and yet he tells them to call to mind what they had endured earlier.

J.T. Just so. They had dropped, I should think.

A.Pf. Speaking of the care meetings, are they more exercising to you than other meetings?

J.T. I do not know; they certainly should be exercising to us all, because so many things have to be dealt with, and it is agonising really as to how to get through them and maintain the rights of God in them, so many things arise to cause real sorrow. They do not come up at the readings or the prayer meetings, and you have to go through them at the time of care. We are to care with genuine feeling how the brethren get on.

Ques. Solomon must have agonised in 1 Kings 3 over those two women with the child. Do you not

think that is the way it should be? The queen of Sheba suggests the happy side, but there is that agonising side.

J.T. I am sure that is right. Solomon must have had real anxiety and sorrow that he should have to exercise such action on Joab and others, but he had real joy when the queen of Sheba came up. It was a time of joy and victory, the way he went up to the house of the Lord. That was not the care meeting; it was how he went up.

F.H.L. Is there instruction in the Lord's endurance for forty days in the wilderness, with the climax of endurance in the garden at the end of Luke?

J.T. Yes. In Luke it is said He was led in the wilderness by the Spirit-not into. It might appear that He was led into it, but He is led in it. That is the way Luke presents it, showing that He was in victory in it by the Spirit. Luke does not mention the name Gethsemane, He does not enlarge on the sufferings of the Lord so much, but still you can see what was there-how the Lord felt things. He was led of the Spirit in the wilderness, that is, He is presented as moving there by the Spirit, or rather the Spirit is taking the lead, as it should be with us "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14. That is what marked the Lord. So when you come to Gethsemane-although in Luke it is not mentioned by name-the same principle was there and the Lord went through it in that sense, that He was led by the Spirit. The Spirit had to do with Gethsemane and with the cross too "Who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God", Hebrews 9:14.

F.H.L. I was thinking of assembly exercises worked out in the wilderness as seen in Luke 4, corresponding to the Lord's experience there; and then the exercise at the close of the church's history. It speaks in Luke of the Lord's going to the mount

of Olives, that He endured the pressure there. It is in the garden in Matthew and Mark, but it is at the mount of Olives in Luke. I was wondering whether that is the type or character of exercise the assembly is passing through at the present time.

J.T. Quite so; there is something in that, in the mount of Olives, and the Spirit being linked up with it. It is a time for us to come to this matter of the Spirit and doing things by the Spirit, that the Spirit is doing things by us, for that is what is seen really in Luke 4.

Ques. Is the thought of reigning entirely future?

J.T. It is a prophetic thought, of course. In our scripture it says, "If we endure, we shall also reign together". That is a future thought, but there can be no doubt that there is a present bearing to it. The actual prophetic thought is fully in Revelation 20.

R.W.S. There are gradations in reigning, are there not, according to the number of cities? Is that just for the thousand years?

J.T. A thousand years, that is the word there; they live and reign a thousand years.

R.W.S. Is this reigning with Him in Timothy more than a thousand years? Does it apply to the millennium only or does it go into the eternal state?

J.T. It is a question whether it does. We would have to work that out through other scriptures. Here the great point is that you do reign as a consequence of knowing how to suffer now in patience and endurance. That is what accrues. It will be no surprise because you have been through the thing already.

A.R. The twenty-four elders are reigning before this.

J.T. They are seated on thrones around the throne in relation to the course of things in the book; they are throned elders and crowned elders. There is a good deal that we could work out on these lines; but living and reigning a thousand years is remarkable, as

if it were singled out as a time when these things will be seen peculiarly, the time for seeing the thing and working it out. I would not make much of the thousand years except that it is a time period. We are still in time, a long time of course, but still it is in time, and it is to bring out certain things in a practical or concrete way, what God can reach in the millennium.

C.A.M. With the Lord it is one triumphal day.

J.T. Quite; God has picked out these years, as it were, and put them away for a purpose, to work out some thing or things, so that it shall be fully seen as worked out.

A.R. There is a time period after the millennium, too, is there not?

J.T. According to this chapter there is. Whatever there may be after or before, God would say, I want these thousand years for a purpose. So they are a very important thousand years; they have to be measured and taken as they are, the thousand working something out. There are a great many, periods of time that Scripture contemplates in the numerical way of dealing with things. This matter is a great point with God, and He has ordained the idea of numbers and the use of them. They show how He works out certain things. This is the longest period He has ordained for that purpose. These people in verse 4 are greatly honoured as to what they are, and how God signalises what they are by causing them to live and reign with Christ a thousand years! God has singled out these thousand years to bring about certain things, and these people are involved. In verse 6 we have an addition to the matter: "They shall be priests of God and of the Christ", not to God, but of; that the whole universe may see that God has these people for priests. It will be a great priestly time with such men as these. God will use them in a priestly sense.

TIME

Luke 22:14; Mark 16:19

The link one had in mind in reading these scriptures is the great thought of time. Abroad in the world, there is a great shortage of manpower, but this is governed by shortage of time; and shortage of time is evident in our gatherings, so that we are enjoined to redeem the time. One feels that considerable time is lost in our gatherings for want of readiness, for want of preparation. The first scripture contemplates that the Lord, when the hour was come, placed Himself at table, the twelve apostles with Him. "And when the hour was come, he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him" (verse 14)- It is clear enough that there was no time lost. The Lord being on time, those who might join with Him administratively were also there. They are with Him. We are together with each other, and each is to function as opportunity affords, but the time is not to wait for us. So the hour was come, and what an hour it was! It could not but be the beginning of the hour, clearly. The scripture implies this, that the hour was there and that this is the very beginning of it. They did not have to remain idle. The Lord placed Himself, we are told. That was an action entering into the service.

It belonged to the service. The idea of place enters into assembly matters as well as time, but time is mentioned first. It did not have to wait. The Lord is active in placing Himself. He was not placed or directed to His place. It was an action that belonged to the service; otherwise, the seat and the time would remain idle, but neither happened, and what thoughts for us, dear brethren, entered into the meaning of the hour and the place, in view of Him who now moved in the service. He had acted Himself in placing

Himself at table. It was the passover, but it was a great matter involving these points which enter into what has come down to us, what belongs to assembly activity or service; so, dear brethren, what I am remarking cannot fail to have some effect upon us in regard to lateness and irregularity in assembly matters.

The assembly is the greatest thing in the universe outside of divine Persons. They are, of course, Persons, but the assembly is the greatest thing and has the first place in the universe; so that it is to be observed by those who are of it, and they will not fail to observe what belongs to it; so it should not be interfered with, for each person in it, included in it, is to function, and if we are absent or late, we fail; so, dear brethren, I need not enlarge on what I have said. These remarks have no hidden meaning, but they bear on us here particularly in this great city where there is considerable want of observation of what is proper to assembly order in service. So the Lord is in His place, and the twelve apostles are with Him. He selected them, and they were selected by Him in view of this very position, as were other disciples like them, in view of the greatest position in the whole universe. They were selected in view of that, and it is said they, the twelve apostles, were with Him. It is just the apostles, in the original, and the twelve are implied evidently, because even Judas is said to be there. They were with Him, and the hour, the functioning time had arrived; it arrived here some minutes ago, a good few minutes ago, and they wait for us. Others who were here on time had to wait, too, and maybe, I may say, the Lord had to wait, for we are not exactly in assembly as when we are assembled at the Supper, for He then comes to us as the bread is broken. Here we are more conscious that He is with us on the principle of where "two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". So that an assembly position

such as this implies that the Lord is here and here as we are here, however few it is. I do not say He comes first. He makes His presence known in the midst of them, not in the midst of chairs but in the midst of persons, and being in the midst, it is to do something or influence those who do something. It is a time of functioning, and the Lord is ready to support us in what we do, a very precious suggestion. Those who take part as I am seeking to do now would count on the Lord to support them. He said, "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you" (verse 15). No one surely would want to arrive after that, for he or she would be late or miss it. Clearly He could not have done it by Himself, nor is any assembly function done by any person by himself; I mean, he is doing it in relation to others. So here the Lord says, "With you". The apostles were with Him, but now He says, 'I desire to eat this passover with you' -- what a thought!

Well now, Mark enlarges on the way of this. Administration was in mind in the position in Luke; the twelve are with Him. They were there in relation to Him, and what He says applies to those with whom He is in relation: "With you", He says. And I may say, dear brethren, that those two words in the verses read, imply the whole dispensation, what the Lord has in mind, what things were in His mind, what feelings! How soon He gave expression to them, to His desires and to His own inward feelings. We cannot miss any of these; they go down the ages. The twelve apostles, indicating the administrative principle, were in His mind. They would carry on, and they did carry on. The opening chapters of the Acts show they did, and how well they did it, too, and how they would call for others coming after them.

Now Mark says, "The Lord therefore, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat at the right hand of God". The writer of the Hebrews tells us that He entered in, but this is a levitical matter

and He is taken up. We are told elsewhere that He was received up in glory. Luke says of Him, "And it came to pass as he was blessing them, he was separated from them and was carried up into heaven" (chapter 24: 51). He had spoken but Mark says He was taken up into heaven and as there He acted, "and sat at the right hand of God". There is no suggestion of an invitation extended, dear brethren. We have to learn how to think of divine Persons and their relation to One Another, but it is clear enough that the Lord had personal liberty in entering the place. He was taken up. That was one thing, but He sat at the right hand of God. There is no suggestion of any aid extended to Him, or proposal or invitation. It is the liberty He had too, but the taking of this position is another thing. It is not His own position. He had a position, and had it there no doubt, His throne would be there. The Lord knew what seat to take. He is going to take another seat later-His own throne, but He is now on His Father's throne. We are not told that here: we are told that He took a place at the right hand. He sat at the right hand of God. Its very meaning is that the position is a fixed one. It is not merely a temporary one, although it would be in another sense, but it is now unoccupied for centuries -- His own throne. We cannot assume anything in a material way, but we cannot assume that it was not there. The Lord knew exactly the position there, and He knew the seat He should take. It was at the right hand. He understood perfectly as He entered there that the service henceforth would be the very best. The young man was at the right hand, too, and the Lord takes the right-hand position, and that is the position that anyone that says anything here tonight is to understand; that he is to take the right-hand position. It is an out-and-out matter. It is not a weak matter, it is in power, and the speaker is to be at the right hand, wholly conscious of power, in what

is said, and in whatever is said or done afterwards. They are not called apostles here. "And they, going forth, preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs following upon it" (verse 20). Only a few words that enter into the position of the next speaker (and I hope there will be one or two, not more) but the position is opened as one sits down, or even if he does not, the Holy Spirit may anticipate his sitting down and give a word to another. This enters into the position, and the position views us as being ready, so that the thing goes on, "the Lord working with them". It is now a question of another time, and the Lord had spoken to them. "And they, going forth, preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs following upon it". The word is to be confirmed. I hope the few words I am venturing to say will be confirmed, because it is urgent, and this thought should have a place with us, that the assembly should function as the time comes, and we should be respectful as to it and all that enters into it, that no time is lost, for it is very scarce. Assembly time is very scarce, so I trust the Lord will confirm and help.

THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (1)

Revelation 1:1 - 20

J.T. This chapter is suggested because of its preliminary and introductory relation to our subject. It is thought that we should first consider the personnel used of the Spirit in the inauguration of the assembly, and then the particular servant, John, who is used in connection with it in this book. The idea of the persons employed will perhaps help us to compare the early chapters of Acts with the gospels as to the inauguration of the assembly. Then we should take account of the breakdown and of the parting of the ways between what is real and what is unreal in the profession, and, in view of that, consider why John should be the one taken up and stressed throughout the book of Revelation. Finally we might see how we come into and remain in assembly service and testimony, the moral basis of it being seen in this book, namely that of overcoming.

Therefore we should think first of Acts 1, 2 and 3 as presenting the persons more particularly used in the inauguration of the assembly. Then we might refer to the person employed to write the assembly gospel, as we may call it, that is Matthew, comparing him with John. It is thought that we should specially consider this because the cleavage in the history of the assembly requires stringency. We must see that the burden of maintaining assembly service has been increased, and Matthew suggests this. He speaks of distances to be covered in view of having part in it, for instance, the distance that the magi had to come in order to worship at Jerusalem, and that in the end of the gospel the disciples had to go to Galilee to meet the Lord. Then the callings of the servants are

mentioned. Peter was a fisherman; so were John and James, and the Lord spoke of making them fishers of men. Matthew was a publican; there is no doubt his calling, too, would make demands. The suggestion is that of demand in maintaining assembly service, that we must give up the idea of ease. If we have to do with the Lord and His administration we must learn to travel and to suffer. Even in the exercise of local responsibility we must learn to suffer to maintain principles. What is in mind involves that the Lord is calling us to suffer, not so much in the sense of persecution but through physical demand and physical endurance.

C.H.H. You said that we have arrived at the parting of the ways. Just what do you refer to?

J.T. The idea of separation. The change occurs in the addresses to the assemblies in Revelation 2 and 3, in the idea of overcoming, because in Thyatira overcoming comes in as a necessity for hearing what the Spirit says. There is a change. In order to hear what the Spirit is saying we have to be overcomers, and that would include physical difficulties.

H.H. These last four assemblies are extant at the present time.

J.T. Quite so; therefore there is the necessity for laying ourselves out to suffer in the sense of endurance and labour. Paul enlarges on travel and the like.

W.F.K. You spoke of the personnel of the assembly. Peter was given the keys of the kingdom, not of the assembly, yet it was on Peter's confession that the assembly was to be built. Do you see a difference between Peter and John in that?

J.T. Matthew must be kept in mind too in contrast to John; but, as you say, Peter had the keys, he represents administration. John is a man that loves and is loved; but in his own gospel he is not said to have a distinctive commission. He was an apostle, of course, but the Lord refers to him in a mysterious

sense, to be kept under His own hand to be used as exigencies require: "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me", John 21:22. I think this book of the Revelation illustrates what the Lord meant, that John is a man who is under His hand at any time for an emergency.

R.W.S. When the Lord says in Matthew 18:19, "Again I say to you", does that allude to what you are speaking of as the parting of the ways?

J.T. That is what I thought. Matthew 18 will, I hope, come into the matter. The first part of that particular section which commences at verse 15 refers to what existed at the beginning, the inaugural constitution of the assembly. Verse 16 has regard to the witnesses, two or three, and verse 18 to the assembly which represents God on earth, so that it is to be told things: "Tell it to the assembly". Verse 18, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven", also refers to the primary position, but verse 19, "Again I say to you", refers to fresh conditions that had arisen and had to be met, the "again" meaning that there is a change in circumstances, and the Lord brings down the responsibility to two: "two of you", not any two, for persons nominally in the assembly have to be weighed. It is "two of you", they are particular ones. So the Lord says, "if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". It is "my Father", not yours. "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them" (verses 19, 20). This latter part, after the word 'again', alludes to the time when there would be a parting of the ways, a reduction in numbers of the persons able to meet the difficulties, coming down to "two of you", and what heaven would do for them.

-.C. The book opens with the words, "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen ..."; so that there is evidently something additional in mind. Then in Matthew 18:19 it is, "Again I say to you". Are they similar lines of thought?

J.T. That is what is in mind, that this book contemplates the time of the parting of the ways, as we take the liberty of saying. You can see that it is a new position altogether opened up: It is the "Revelation [or apocalypse] of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John". It does not say, His apostle John. You might say, His prophet, but it is "His bondman John". All the other apostles are omitted, although some of them must have been alive at the time. We may be guided as to time by historical mention. This book was written after Paul's service had taken wide effect. The seven assemblies were really, you might say, Paul's assemblies, because they were all in the province of Asia, where Paul had laboured. Luke tells us that "all that inhabited Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks",

Acts 19:10. That was what Paul was ministering, particularly at Ephesus. So we have there the historical facts as to the time that this revelation was made to John. There is no allusion to the assembly at Jerusalem; it is a matter of the seven assemblies in Asia; therefore it is Paul's assembly that is in mind particularly, but John is the one called upon under the Lord's hand in the emergency, evidently because he is a loved and trusted one.

H.H. Does the thought enter into it that "all who are in Asia, of whom is Phygellus and Hermogenes, have turned away from me", 2 Timothy 1:15?

J.T. It does enter in because it shows how early the defection began, even in Timothy's time.

A.A.T. Would you distinguish between John's personal love for the Lord and the love of the assembly for the Lord? He seems to be singled out as a servant, and distinguished.

J.T. What is stressed in regard to John is not his personal love for Christ, but Christ's personal love for him. But surely his personal love for Christ is included, and the Lord can trust him. So this book illustrates what the Lord said to Peter, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?". He is a man held in reserve, and the secret is that the Lord loved him. His own name is not mentioned in John, his own gospel, it is just "the disciple whom Jesus loved". But his own personal name is here, meaning that he has a history as to what his character is. His character is known historically. He is a reliable man; that is the point. It is reliability that is needed; we have light, but reliability is needed and readiness to suffer, even if it be physically, to maintain the principles of the assembly.

S.J.H. Would you say a little more as to what is involved in the parting of the ways? Then there is an angel mentioned here. Is it on account of all Asia having left him?

J.T. That is right. 2 Timothy shows what the facts were. Paul mentions certain ones specifically, but all Asia had turned away; not forsaken exactly, but turned away, which would not mean an open schism but rather a secret condition. So that when we come to the examination of Ephesus and the other assemblies we find there was more or less loyalty to Christ in all of them; but the disloyalty began early, even in Timothy's time.

H.B. It appears that the turning away would be in the leadership; Paul mentions Phygellus and Hermogenes, who were doubtless leaders. Is this the way the Lord acts in recovery, through these qualities seen in John?

J.T. Demas is spoken of too among those who had deflected. No doubt the Lord will help us as we proceed with the account of each church; in chapters 2 and 3 we shall see that leadership is at fault.

R.H. You alluded to the link between Matthew and John, the way John is presented in Revelation. Would you say a little more about that?

J.T. Well, I thought that as John is taken up here by the Lord as a bondman he would link on with Matthew. He stresses the idea of obedience right through, of overcoming on that principle. Matthew's line would be that too, stressing the idea of a command. So that the Lord says to the women, "Go, bring word to my brethren that they go into Galilee",

Matthew 28:10. The angel had said the same thing, "Go quickly and say to his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and behold, he goes before you into Galilee, there shall ye see him. Behold, I have told you", Matthew 28:7. I stress that point; they have been told to do something and they do it. "Going out quickly ... they ran to bring his disciples word", we are told, pointing to the suggestion that we must lay ourselves out to serve and serve quickly and well, for it is a command. "As they went to bring his disciples word"-notice it is not now a 'command' but a 'word'-"behold also, Jesus met them, saying, Hail!", meaning that He is respectful to them. He looks to them to be respectful too, as if to encourage them. "And they coming up took him by the feet", which is not a good thought. They would hold Him back, and that is not to be admitted; there is to be no holding back when a command is involved. Now in order to make the truth clear it is said in verse 16, "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them". There again it is a command or authority; they had to go there, to Galilee, to where Jesus had appointed them. "And when they saw him, they did homage to him

but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth". Now He is speaking to them in Galilee. He continues, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations"-this is a command again, 'Go and do it'-"baptising them to the name Of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you" (verses 18 - 20). I thought we should have these verses before us to make the position clear, that Matthew links on with John, or rather, that in the Apocalypse John links On with Matthew really in stressing these principles: that things have to be done, and that overcoming implies that they are done. And so the Lord says to Philadelphia, "Thou ... hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name", Revelation 3:8. The women had gone out quickly from the tomb, but when the Lord meets them He does not say, "Behold, I have told you", but "Go, bring word to my brethren", bring them word.

J.J. What is the distinction between 'command' and 'word'?

J.T. Well, 'word' conveys what is in the mind. A command may be anything in the sense of authority, but 'word' conveys intelligence in what is being said. There is a reason for it, a good reason for it, a thought which always goes with the idea Of 'the word' or 'logos'. It is not only what is said, but that behind it there is good reason for it.

R.W.S. So that this whole matter Of ordering and enjoining would militate against the independence which might mark us On this continent, and which we need to overcome to be assembly persons.

J.T. I think the Lord has helped us there too in the parting of the ways, to withdraw from iniquity "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19. Naming

the name of the Lord would be authority, but withdrawing or departing from iniquity is doing something more; it is the positive side. I think in view of the assembly the Lord has greatly helped the brethren all these years not to carry the leaven with us as withdrawing from iniquity. What is said about it in Matthew 16:4 greatly helps: "He left them and went away"; that is, He left the Pharisees. Then He enjoins His disciples about the leaven of the Pharisees, not only to leave them but to leave their leaven; that we are to judge it and not to carry it with us, and in judging it we are able to carry something positive with us.

R.H. Do these thoughts of the parting of the ways and of suffering link On with the Lord's charge to the disciples in Matthew as to the sword and the cross? As He sends out the twelve it says (chapter 10: 5), "When he had charged them", and then in verse 34, "Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth I have not come to send peace, but a sword".

J.T. Just so, and then in His leaving those who are disloyal, war is implied. So the sword is used in the sense Of "the word of God" which is "sharper than any two-edged sword". With the great volume of ministry that we have on paper, and also what there is in the hearts and intelligences Of the brethren it is a question of the word of God being used in warfare.

R.H. I was struck by the difference between the Lord's charge in Matthew and in Luke. In Luke it is the idea of a son of peace, but in Matthew it is worthy persons and a worthy house; and then He speaks of the idea of a sword and of accepting the cross.

J.T. I think all that is apropos Of what we are saying in linking On Matthew with John, John being the lover and the one whom Jesus loved. He is now called a bondman; that is what he is characteristically.

He is one ready to do what he is told to do. I think that is what is meant in the word 'bondman', and

the first great Bondman represented in Scripture is a lover. So that bondmen are lovers, as the Lord says in John's gospel, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (chapter 14: 15). So the link between Matthew and John is seen, I think, in that John here in Revelation is working out the idea, especially in what he says to the assemblies; he is working out the principles of obedience and overcoming, and overcoming involves keeping the Lord's word and not denying His name.

H.H. Do you get the lover in John 13, in His bosom and on His breast?

J.T. Just so; I think that is where the link lies between Matthew and John. Matthew makes a good deal of obedience. The change-over in chapter 18 is, "Again I say to you", and it brings in two of the assembly; they pray about things, there is the burden of prayer. Then two or three are gathered together, the power of gathering being recognised, so that independence is simply shut out.

W.F.K. Must we be subjects in the kingdom before we can be assembly material? I was thinking that here in Matthew they would do Him homage; that would be as the King.

J.T. Just so; that is the point with the women and the apostles; they both did him homage; but the kingdom hardly carries with it the deity of the Lord, I mean it is not stressed. The kingdom is a question of authority, but the idea of worshipping Him involves His Person. So the first mention in Matthew as to worshippers is when the magi came a long way to worship and do homage to Jesus.

W.F.K. The chapter we read brings in a kingdom of priests unto God. I was thinking that we have to come into the kingdom before becoming assembly material.

R.W.S. Is there anything in the occupations of these two apostles? You alluded to one being a tax-gatherer and the other a fisherman.

J.T. I think the government of God enters into the matter of our calling. We are enjoined to continue in it whatever it be. Undoubtedly in the government of God our calling is calculated to affect us as taken up in God's kingdom. The Lord may use it in the sense in which it has trained you and affected you in a constitutional way. After all, as persons born into the world we all need ordinary education. But God oversees everything and knows everything beforehand and He intends that there shall be something in our calling that will affect us and be useful in His service. Hence He says to Peter and Andrew, "I will make you fishers of men". The Lord used the word 'fishers' there to link on with their natural occupation. That thought was to attach to them in what they were to be spiritually.

A.R.C. If I understood you rightly, you said it was wrong for the women to hold the feet of Jesus. Would you point out the defect?

J.T. I should not want to hold the Lord's feet. He is on a journey. Why should my wife or my children hold my feet if I have to go and serve the Lord? That is what enters into it.

A.R.C. I suppose the joy and the affection they felt at seeing the Lord risen was more on natural lines.

J.T. It might be an Israelitish thought. They sought to hold Him for their own purpose. Not that you would limit them exactly, but they held Him by the feet when He was on a journey to go into Galilee.

S.J.H. You spoke about physical suffering: do you think that is one way our affection is shown in overcoming? The Lord helps us in long journeys and other taxing matters.

J.T. Just so; you lay yourself out to suffer. It is remarkable how many journeys are being made now, how much application has to be made to the railroads for transportation and for gas to drive our cars, all in faith, so as to attend these meetings. I am sure God

has great regard for that. But to refer again to our brother's remark as to our calling, and how much it may enter into our usefulness in the divine service, I would say that Matthew was a tax-gatherer and we know what that means-much that is objectionable; but at the same time it had something to do with Matthew's education and how he would view things, not in a wrong sense but in a right sense, and undoubtedly God has that in mind in what persons are called to do in working with their hands.

J. W. Paul was a bondman. Would he represent a journeying brother and John be more stationary?

J.T. I think that is good. The Lord in His parabolic teaching spoke about a man on a journey, how he would get all the loaves he needed by prayer. Paul had a circuit of journeyings: "In journeyings often", he says; and again in Romans 15:19 he speaks of travelling "from Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum", which was a very very long journey, involving much territory to be crossed. He says, "I ... have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ"; that is, he did not diminish his skill and zeal and workman's ability because of the journey.

"I ... have fully preached": the thing was well done, however great the journey he had to make.

W.W.M. Might we sacrifice to make a journey to a meeting such as this, yet be careless in attending our local meeting if we are tired, and not be prepared to sacrifice to be there?

J.T. I am sure that is a good thing to suggest. We have spoken of it before in our locality. Many brethren are ready for a journey to preach or to give an address at a distance, but the question is whether the local position is taken care of in my journeyings.

Am I neglecting my local responsibility? Because, after all, local positions are involved in the Apocalypse; several local positions are mentioned. Ephesus is one. There are seven of them, and they have to be

attended to. Take the matter of the Nicolaitanes, for instance, persons who bring in bad doctrine and teaching and influence: if those who have the truth and love it are away all the time we are exposing our local gatherings to these Nicolaitanes. So that I believe the Lord would help the brothers who have gift not to make everything of it, because leadership is also important. Teaching and leadership generally go together, and if I am away all the time, or most of the time, I cannot be a leader locally.

R.W.S. The bride in the Canticles says, "Mine own vineyard have I not kept" (chapter 1: 6); but when the exercise has been gone through she says at the end of the book, "My vineyard, which is mine, is before me" (chapter 8: 12).

J.T. That helps. In our section there is great weakness, because most of the brothers cannot preach, and the few brothers who are gifted are invited to preach so constantly that the local positions are in danger of being neglected. So I think Matthew's gospel would say, 'Look after the vineyard, look after the administration as well as the preaching'. In fact Matthew does not stress the preaching, though Mark does. It is administration and building that he would stress and the order of the assembly; that is, if there is a difficulty that we should "tell it to the assembly"; is there anybody there to speak to? We have to look out for brethren who can be told and who should be told about the thing.

A.A.T. How do you regard Paul in this connection? Did he have a local position? I know that he had a universal position and that he travelled oft; but how would these remarks apply to him?

J.T. They do apply to him. According to Acts 14 he and Barnabas went to Antioch of Pisidia and elsewhere and when they had fulfilled their mission they returned to Antioch and were there certain days "Having arrived, and having brought together the

assembly, they related to them all that God had done with them, and that he had opened a door of faith to the nations. And they stayed no little time with the disciples" (verses 27, 28). That is, they were for a while local men: "They stayed no little time". We are told, in chapter 11, "that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd" (verse 26). This was at Antioch, and then he tells us himself that for the space of three years he laboured at Ephesus, and for eighteen months he worked at Corinth. So in those instances the saints certainly had a local brother in Paul.

Ques. It says in Mark 2:1, "He entered again into Capernaum after several days, and it was reported that he was at the house". The note says, 'At home', in the sense of 'not away on a journey'. Is that anticipative of local conditions?

J.T. Just so. The Lord Himself clearly had a central position in Capernaum. He deliberately went down from Nazareth and dwelt at Capernaum. That would mean that He would be there as a local Person. It is called, "His own city", Matthew 9:1.

R.H. It says in Matthew 2, "Having been divinely instructed in a dream, he went away into the parts of Galilee, and came and dwelt in a town called Nazareth; so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazaraean".

J.T. There is the local idea in that. It also says, "He came to Nazareth, where he was brought up" (Luke 4:16), and that "He went and dwelt at Capernaum" (Matthew 4:13), so that He could be found there. I think this is a matter of importance, because the Lord is concerned about what there is to be seen in the way of testimony. It is not simply what is to be heard, but what is to be seen. If a brother is often away preaching, you do not see him much at his local meeting; that is a weakness. What is to be seen in the local position is part of the testimony.

E.A.L. What you are saying is making evangelism much broader than one's being merely a speaker. A more important thing is to be a model.

J.T. Just so; it is what the example may be. So the first two who acted in moving together in the service were Peter and John, seen in Acts 3, and the word is, "Look on us"; not simply, Listen to what we are saying, but "Look on us". And so in John's gospel the two who are seeking the Lord call Him 'Rabbi' and say, "Rabbi (which, being interpreted, signifies Teacher), where abidest thou? He says to them, Come and see"; not,'Come and hear'. "They went therefore, and saw where he abode". They would see that the Lord had a home.

H.B. Paul says, "Corinthians" (2 Corinthians 6:11); and "O Philippians", Philippians 4:15. Does that show that our locality should mark us?

J.T. If you look at the persons that accompanied Paul in Acts 20 you will see how they are called according to the places they come from. It says in verse 4, "And there accompanied him as far as Asia, Sopater ... a Berean"; notice that-he belonged to the place; "and of Thessalonians, Aristarchus and Secundus"; they belonged to the place; "and Gaius and Timotheus of Derbe, and of Asia, Tychicus and Trophimus". They are all referred to in relation to their localities. It seems as if this is a point of importance, that the testimony is not simply what is heard by mouth from a gifted person in preaching and teaching, but that it is also what is seen in him, and that involves his position in his house and in his local gathering.

Ques. Does Samuel illustrate that? It says of him, "He went from year to year in circuit to Bethel, and Gilgal, and Mizpah ... and his return was to Ramah; for there was his house", 1 Samuel 7:16, 17.

J.T. That is right.

S.J.H. What would you say about brethren in a foreign country who cannot return home on account of war and the like; are they local there?

J.T. It is a question of getting the principle and seeing how it can be worked out. Under the present circumstances, of course, many of the Lord's servants cannot get to their local positions and others have to stay at home. Then there are brothers who are held as prisoners of war. All these are counting on a change in the circumstances and their prayers are going up constantly for this. God is hearing them, too, and presently He will make a change.

S.J.H. But for the time being are they local somewhere in the country where they are?

J.T. That is so. Some of us are a poor testimony to that. It is a question of whether in travelling you can be a local man as effectively as you can be a preacher.

Ques. Is the question of inviting a brother important? How are his local responsibilities taken care of?

J.T. That is a matter I am sure that requires attention, as to what is to be seen as the testimony is developed; whether it is neglected or whether it has been cared for. What is there to be seen in this city?

J.L.P. Would it be in the apostle's mind that the saints at Philippi were to take that on? "What ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, these things do; and the God of peace shall be with you", Philippians 4:9.

J.T. That is true; so he sent Timotheus to Corinth, as has been often remarked: "For this reason I have sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ", 1 Corinthians 4:17. Timothy would read this to the Corinthians. Paul kept in mind that they still needed to have him before them as a model.

C.H.H. Would the exercise of David enter into this as having a keeper for the sheep? He would not leave them unattended.

J.T. Just so. So in the beginning of Acts we have reference to "All things which Jesus began both to do and to teach", Acts 1:1. The doing is what is at home, what is local, what is in one's walk.

Ques. As to the other side, the servant's side, is there any principle involved in 1 Corinthians 16:12? "Now concerning the brother Apollos, I begged him much that he would go to you with the brethren; but it was not at all his will to go now; but he will come when he shall have good opportunity". It would not be right to say, No, would it?

J.T. The apostle did not condemn the attitude of Apollos. I judge it lay in the state of the saints there. An element adverse to Paul existed there and Apollos sympathised with the apostle and would evade any appearance otherwise. But as to the point we are considering, the danger of neglecting local responsibility, if you are invited to go a long way to serve the saints, you must calculate as to the time needed and whether local needs admit of it, and decide before the Lord accordingly.

R.H. You referred to doing and teaching. In Matthew 4 and 9 the Lord is seen preaching first, and then teaching and then healing. What would you say about that?

J.T. I was thinking of that. Matthew itemises what the Lord did in chapter 4 and again in chapter 9, to show what a Minister He was: "Behold my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!", Isaiah 42:1. Heaven was thinking of His general service, not of what He was locally as in Luke 4. Matthew has come to the time of enlarging on what the Lord did, the immensity of what He did, and all the kinds of things that He did are mentioned. In Matthew you have even lunacy.

But now returning to our subject as to Matthew and John, we get John in this first chapter of Revelation in a peculiar and special way. We are told, "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ". John is here called a "bondman", and the angel is sent to him, and then we are told what he did: he "testified the word of God"; the word 'testified' here would mean the way in which he brought the word of God to bear in this book, "The testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw". The Lord signified what He received from His Father, "sending by his angel, to his bondman John". That is, certain signs had been used to indicate the revelation to John who testified the word of God. It continues, "John to the seven assemblies which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth". This is John's address to the seven assemblies. Then he says, "To him who loves us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father: to him be the glory and the might to the ages of ages. Amen". That is what John says to the seven assemblies, what the Spirit of God is now saying. This introduction indicates what a servant he was, and the moral power he has to address the seven assemblies. Had he been in each of them? It would appear so. It would look as though he had some knowledge of them. He had not been used to form the assemblies; apparently that was Paul's work. But he evidently knew them and knew what to say; and what he says involves the peculiar character of this book, that the Lord "loves

us, and has washed us from our sins in his blood, and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father". Then in verse 9 he tells us, "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". What an experience he had had! a "fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". These features, as the note tells us, 'are intimately connected, being brought together under one head by one article in the Greek'. John was a thoroughly balanced brother in his experience. The brethren will have noticed, no doubt, that these qualities, "tribulation", "kingdom" and "patience", are intimately connected; that is, the brother John is presented to us as marked by partaking in the tribulation and kingdom and patience in Jesus. The preposition used indicates being in these things in power, that is, he was affected by them. Then he goes on to say that he "was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus". He then says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet". What he heard was about the assembly under seven heads. Then he says, "And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps"; that is, he speaks of seeing the assembly before he saw Christ; "And in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man". It is well to note what he sees, because it brings out the character of the work of the brother or minister; and then he is able to describe the Lord, not as by Himself, but in the midst of the seven golden lamps; that is to say, it is the Lord in relation to the assembly and it is an assembly man speaking about it with feeling. We can see the Lord is setting out the situation fully about the assemblies, and He is seen in their midst.

A.R.C. Is that why the official side is not seen here? John is a bondman.

J.T. He is not mentioned as an apostle, but as a bondman, and then as a brother.

A.R.C. He is a valued brother.

J.T. Quite so; he is a bondman, and what underlies bondmanship according to the type in Exodus is love. The bondman loves his master, his wife and his children, three features of love. He is balanced in his love. And so here John is balanced in his character. Of course, that is inspired; but nevertheless it is important to see that the assembly is kept in mind from the very beginning and mentioned here even before the Lord, who is mentioned then as seen in the midst of it. Therefore the dispensation is Christ in the midst of the assembly, and it goes right on to the end.

H.B. At the end He says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", Revelation 22:16. Have you that in mind?

J.T. Quite so; the last reference is that. We have hardly covered the ground as intended, but I think there is some idea of what was in mind, that is, to bring out John as over against Matthew and the others, that he is the only one of the assembly servants that is seen operating in this book, and doing so to the end. The assemblies are kept in mind right through according to what they were when the Lord was in their midst.

C.H.H. Would you say that the positions in which John had been relative to the Lord when He was here are carried along in their meaning into this book? Only one who had been in the bosom of Jesus and on His breast could occupy this position at Patmos. Would that be so?

J.T. Quite so. How much more there is in all this if we only had time to go into it! I am sure the Lord would have us keep in mind the position in which John sees Him. He is seen in the midst of the seven golden lamps. Those who have love are still viewed

as light-bearers in God's kingdom to keep that functioning. The Lord is in the midst of them and in judicial robes, so that everything is discerned and dealt with. That is our position.

Rem. It says that John saw the voice.

J.T. That is remarkable, that the voice is identified with the Person.

THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (2)

Revelation 2:1 - 29

J.T. To complete the introduction to our subject a few remarks are required on verses 17 to 20 of the first chapter of Revelation. John says, "And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades", Revelation 1:17, 18. And then the Lord says, "Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these. The mystery of the seven stars which thou hast seen on my right hand, and the seven golden lamps. -- The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies; and the seven lamps are seven assemblies". The adjustment that the servant needed is indicated here, an important matter as to service and those who are bondmen. John is affected by what he saw. The Lord brings certain facts before him with a view to his complete adjustment for the service. So He says, "Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades". So that the Lord sets him up in view of the service He was committing to him and tells him the order in which he is to write, which is applicable in principle to what we say as well as to what we write, that is, the order in which we set out our subject matter. First, He says, "What thou hast seen", then "The things that are", and then "The things that are about to be after these". The order of the writing is made plain, as if the Spirit of God would have the truth ministered in a certain order

the order of one, two, three. And then there is this matter of the mystery (verse 20); if one is to be initiated into that, it would be number one. The seven stars are the angels of the assemblies, and the seven lamps are the seven assemblies, so that the servant is now set up in view of his service. The book bears in mind too, that as servants we are just creatures and liable to error or failure, even though commissioned. A very solemn thing! At the end of what he saw in chapter 22: 8, John says, "And when I heard and saw, I fell down to do homage before the feet of the angel who shewed me these things", showing how one may be mistaken in one's understanding and outlook even although commissioned and in actual service; therefore we are reminded that we are to be in constant dependence. Even in the exercise of our service we may begin well and get through well and yet finish ill. The book contemplates the perfect Servant, which Mark also presents, but it warns us of our creature limitations and creature liabilities, so at the end of chapter 1 John is set out on his service to write messages to the seven assemblies severally.

C.H.H. Would this dependence be secured in the knowledge that the Lord holds the seven stars in His right hand? Would that be our security?

J.T. That is a good suggestion. In the danger attaching to us it is establishing to know that we are held in the Lord's right hand. It says, "These things says he that holds the seven stars in his right hand"; it is not simply that they are under control, though He has them under control, but that He maintains them, too.

H.H. How would the thought of His having the stars in His right hand fit in with decline in the assemblies?

J.T. In the general position of man if the servant were upheld absolutely it would mean almost complete disregard of responsibility, that is, if he were held in

immaculateness. The Pope, for instance, is held to be infallible under certain circumstances; that is, if he takes a certain attitude. He does not assume to be infallible absolutely; it is only under certain circumstances. But that is going beyond creature liabilities, because a creature is liable to fail at any time; although there is the side, for instance, of the inspiration of the Scriptures which is infallible. Then too in the ministry of certain persons like the apostles, servants have been preserved; yet there is in all of them the evidence of liability to fail, for "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us", 1 John 1:8. We shall be in a state of perfection ultimately, and that is what God has in mind, that abstractly the saints are in a state of perfection now because Scripture says, "We know that every one begotten of God does not sin", 1 John 5:18. But that is abstract, assuming what will be, and what can be in a certain relation even now; but whilst we are in a state of flesh and blood there is no guarantee against failure, even though it be only in a small sense. Yet the holding of the seven stars implies that that is the general position of the dispensation; the Lord has taken up this attitude of holding. Later, in chapter 3, He says that He has the seven stars "These things saith he that has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars" (verse 1). The word 'has' there is not 'holds'. Holding them is more active and definite. Having them is just the fact of possession, and I suppose when we come to the conditions of Sardis there will even be the suggestion that ministry is not being preserved and supported.

S.J.H. Is it a good indication that at the start, having seen the Lord in this way, John falls at His feet as dead?

J.T. The Lord does not reprove it, but He says to John, "Fear not". You could hardly think of John in his ordinary service as taking up this attitude.

I think while it is not reproved exactly, yet it is a little out of accord with the position of the servant as set up in the Spirit. In fact he says he was "in the Spirit", "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

S.J.H. I wondered if it was in the presence of what is judicial.

J.T. Quite; I would not like to say much, but the Lord says, "Fear not", which might be interpreted that he might be justified in fearing; but really I think the Lord meant there was nothing to fear. He intended that John should know Him. John's own gospel shows how the truth of life works out, as the Lord says to Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die", John 11:25, 26. I mean to say, the truth of life in Christ implies that there is really nothing to fear; the full apprehension of the truth would lead to that.

C.H.H. Is it an essential thing in the servant to feel his weakness in the presence of this? David says in Psalm 39:4, "Make me to know, Jehovah, mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is: I shall know how frail I am". Would that be a wholesome exercise?

J.T. Well, you get illustrations of commendable lowly attitudes. Daniel, for instance, was very weak in the presence of the angel or minister from God; he describes his gradual recovery and finally he is made to stand by the angel, who says, "Fear not, Daniel". Later he says, "Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me", Daniel 10:19. But christianity certainly supposes a perfect condition, that is, that on the principle of life in Christ one is made perfect.

S.J.H. And the knowledge that "perfect love casts out fear", 1 John 4:18.

J.T. Quite so, and chapter 1:7 of the same epistle says, "But if we walk in the light as he is in

the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin". It is admitted that we are weak, but we know the priesthood of Christ preserves us. At the same time christianity involves what is perfect, abstractly anyway.

A.A.T. Would you make a distinction in your mind between John's failure and that of Barnabas and Mark, in that the two latter acted in self-will? They did not go on with Paul in the service.

J.T. At the juncture you refer to Barnabas and Mark were morally wrong. They were acting somewhat on partisan lines. But that is not the same as a brother like John in the presence of such a vision. You may say you cannot wonder at his being affected. It is true you cannot attach any wrong moral element to John here; at the same time the question is whether he is in the full sense of what christianity implies. Abraham had a vision and he was not in this state, and others too had visions. But John is recording what happened to him and the Lord said, "Fear not". It is therefore for us to judge, and I would say that the full thought of christianity should have supported him. The Lord intended to support him in the presence of the vision.

C.H.H. Would Mary's attitude in the presence of the angel be a good example?

J.T. Quite so; she was not abashed at all. That is a good illustration.

H.H. John had never seen the Lord in this attitude before.

J.T. Did he not see Him when He took a whip of small cords and drove the sheep-dealers out of the temple? What would he have seen in the Lord then? He would have been in similar garb then, would He not?

H.H. I had not thought of that; this is a very full-sized picture, is it not?

J.T. Quite so; at the same time christianity is involved, it implies a perfect state. John knew what it was to be in the power that is available to the believer; he says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

C.H.H. So he would have seen the Lord in both aspects: on the mount of transfiguration he would have seen Him as glorified, and then as acting judicially in the temple.

J.T. Just so; the Lord would have been seen by the apostles in many ways, so that in some sense this garb would have been seen in His dealing with evil, and with good too. It is very beautiful, as if the Lord would say to John, There is nothing to cause you fear. There was much to cause others to fear in their delinquencies that He was about to speak of; He spoke only to make them fear, but I think the Lord meant that for John there was nothing to fear. Surely christianity implies that!

H.B. Is there a suggestion of all that in Daniel, where it is one like to the appearance of a man who touches him and says, "Fear not"?

J.T. Just so, Daniel had a similar experience, as we have already noted.

C.H.H. It would link on with the angel's words, "Fear not ye, for I know that ye seek Jesus the crucified one", Matthew 28:5.

H.H. Is the thought in your mind that we need not fear in seeking to go on with the testimony in these days?

J.T. That is what we should gather. The Lord knows how to approve and He knows how to disapprove. If a person is not going on well and comes into the Lord's presence, the Lord would not say to him, There is nothing to fear! But with John it was different, he was going on well. In fact the description he gives of himself would show he was fully in accord with the truth.

M.W.A. John himself says in his epistle that "perfect love casts out fear; for fear has torment, and he that fears has not been made perfect in love". Does that have a bearing?

J.T. It does indeed. I think God would perfect the apostle in all that christianity means. Christianity is absolutely perfect in the abstract; when we can eliminate all else we have an absolutely perfect thing; and the Holy Spirit is capable of maintaining us now in that abstract state.

R.H. Is there a link between the emphatic "I" here and the "I" in the end of Matthew? "And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. Would the perfection of the position you are speaking of be linked with that?

J.T. You have the emphatic "I" here, you mean, in verse 17. Quite so; "I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades". That comes in after He says, "Fear not". All that is really to emphasise the idea that there is nothing to fear at all in John's case.

S.J.H. Is there a suggestion that if any one will take up these issues which the Lord is taking up with the seven assemblies, the Lord will hold him in His right hand and support him?

J.T. I think that is His attitude, the attitude of holding the seven stars, and any one under commission should be strengthened by it. John is actually under commission and the Lord is saying to him, There is nothing in this position to fear. It will not do if I am capable of cowering before anything; if I am under commission I must be strong, as was said to Joshua, "Only be strong and very courageous", Joshua 1:7. So when the man with the drawn sword appeared to him he did not cower, but he said, "Art thou for us, or for our enemies?", Joshua 5:13. He carried on the partisan idea in the presence of the Lord and the

Lord has to adjust that. When Joshua asked, "Art thou for us, or for our enemies?", He said, "No; for as captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come".

Ques. Why is the appellation, "Son of man" used here?

J.T. It is another element in the position; it is what He is in His universal attitude, what belongs to christianity as over against judaism in this book. Although it recognises Israel in many ways, yet it is in the midst of christianity. Its setting is in the time of christianity, just as the wrath that came out at the fall of Jerusalem happened in the period of christianity. We are never to forget that we are here in christianity, and that it is a perfect state that God has set up.

C.H.H. What would Paul mean when he says, "I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling", 1 Corinthians 2:3?

J.T. That is a question of the state he had to deal with, and the Lord made him realise that he had such a state to deal with. It was really governmental. The persons he had to deal with were the cause of it. He had not the same fear with others, it was the state he was in the midst of. And so it is in ministry, if you are dealing with unspiritual people God in faithfulness will have to deal with them as unspiritual, and you may not get the same support because of their state.

C.H.H. Would it depend on you to define the assembly state before you in ministry?

J.T. Quite so; and you have to be faithful, and bow to what God may do in view of persons who are unspiritual.

W.F.K. "I am ... the living one"; is that a statement to encourage the servant?

J.T. First he hears the statement, "Fear not". That is a clause in the sentence and what follows is to

strengthen the exhortation conveyed in those two words. It goes on, "I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades". Well, what is there to fear? If John has a good conscience-and he has according to what comes out here-what is there to fear? The Lord is not against a man like John, He is against evil. The Man that supports a man like John has the keys of death and of hades.

R.H. Was Timothy needing adjustment on this line when Paul wrote to him, "For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion", 2 Timothy 1:7?

J.T. Just so; he was likely to be nervous in his service, as often young brothers are, and that word is just to strengthen such, to strengthen Timothy.

Now these verses in the end of chapter 1 are necessary to complete what we are saying about John, because we are comparing John with Matthew in affecting the personnel at the inauguration of the assembly. These verses give the full position of John as set up in himself. There is nothing morally out of the way with him, evidently, but he needed strengthening; he needed to be reassured that all was well in his dealings with the Lord. There is nothing in His appearing to cause John fear. And now he is set up at the end of chapter 1 for his service; but as we were saying, the order of his writing is emphasised. It is not only that I am to be set free and in power, but that I am to minister according to order and as governed by the primary apprehension I may have of the mind of God in any given circumstance. If I have that apprehension I am to proceed according to order; and the order is one, two, three. If it be only one, keep to it; or two, keep to two, but in the order of one and two, because God, even in ministry, is the God of order, and of measure too.

Ques. In chapter 1: 20 the Lord speaks of the seven stars as on His right hand; and in verse 1 of the next chapter, He speaks of them as in His right hand. Would there be any difference?

J.T. The first would be, you might say, the ornamental position of the stars; the second is that He is dealing with them, using them: "He that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps". They are actually in function in the second instance.

R.W.S. The right hand is a very comforting thought in apostate days. The stars are on it and they are in it. John also says, "And he laid his right hand upon me" (verse 17).

J.T. As in it they are more immediately functioning, in fact they are in function. They are available to Him in that sense; they are actually there.

W.W.M. Would that represent the responsible element in the assembly?

J.T. Yes; that is what is meant, I think.

A.A.T. If I get your thought, you do not recommend that a brother giving an address should present six or seven points, but just one, two or three in order?

J.T. I should much prefer to keep it to one, two, three, than to go to six. In prophecy it is also very important. I think brevity is one important matter in ministry but one would not limit or criticise any. But the Lord's order here is very significant; it is one, two, three.

R.W.S. Would that apply to the number of scriptures read?

J.T. I think so. You want to make things clear, to be concise. The Lord has given you your thoughts and now He is telling you how to use them, how to subdivide them. Do not put number three first; begin with what you are seeing, as He says here, "Write therefore what thou hast seen". He begins with that. Then, "The things that are, and the

things that are about to be after these". So "what thou hast seen" is first.

Ques. Are you suggesting John as a pattern to be followed under present conditions assembly-wise in view of the public breakdown, but now in regard to recovery?

J.T. I think so. He is the one servant before us, a commissioned one, and he certainly is a model, particularly in the use of Scripture and the subdivision of the subject that you wish to present. You do not make it any more difficult than necessary for your audience. Of course if you are speaking parabolically, you might be hiding the truth; that would be judicially. But the principle of ministry generally is to open up the truth, "opening and laying down", it is said of Paul. You bring the thing out, and then lay it down so that the saints can take it in.

C.H.H. If you had the order of one, two, three, definitely before you, these points might be sub divided to bring in other scriptures.

J.T. Well, we do too much of it. I shall probably be under fire myself this evening.

C.H.H. It used to be said that you could have four points, having a universal bearing on the subject.

J.T. Quite so, but the use of the numeral three is more frequent in Scripture.

Rem. In chapter 1 this morning you referred to "the tribulation and kingdom and patience", all three under one head; then the numeral three is emphasised again in these closing verses of the first chapter; and you connected it also with Exodus 21:5, "I love my master, my wife, and my children". You have the order of one, two, three, there too. I was wondering whether that in itself does not cover the whole divine scheme.

J.T. Very likely, because things emanate from God, really from the Trinity, we might say. There is

much more in the Scriptures than we think in that respect, the voice of God being heard, not always spoken in words, but very often implied.

R.H. The Lord refers to the law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms.

J.T. He spoke of only two divisions, you remember, when He talked with the two disciples on the way to Emmaus; He brought up just the law of Moses and the prophets. But when He is speaking in the assembly He adds the Psalms, the completion of the divine way in the Scriptures.

W.F.K. Are these first three churches past history?

J.T. Yes. The four others, the second division of the seven referred to, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea run concurrently and exist today. But first it is a question of Ephesus, then Smyrna and then Pergamos. In Ephesus what is stressed is the fall. She fell; not absolutely, as Satan fell or as Babylon falls; the word 'fallen' does not imply that it is absolute, that there is not some hope of recovery. It is relative: "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen", that is, Remember the extent of the fall; that is what is stressed in the word to Ephesus. And the Lord says, "but if not", if you do not remember that and do the first works and repent, "I am coming to thee, and I will remove thy lamp out of its place, except thou shalt repent". Then He adds, "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate". The Lord brings that in as reducing somewhat what He had against her. So the position is that there is hope of Ephesus, not for a complete recovery, but there is hope on the ground of repentance and doing the first works; otherwise the fight, the candlestick, is to be removed, that is, she is to cease even having the commission to shine. She is not regarded as any more usable for shining. This would happen unless she repents.

W.F.K. Is love the only thing for us today, love among the brethren? I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 13 and that Ephesus had fallen from love.

J.T. Yes, the first love. You can hardly say that she had left love altogether, but she had left her first love, which was the greatest. The idea of grade is very important in Scripture, and she has left the highest grade here, first love.

W.F.K. Is that love for the Lord as well as for the brethren?

J.T. It is love for Christ by the assembly. It is collective love responding to His love. It is really the greatest presentation of love in the sense of what is indicated here.

C.H.H. Would there be any indication of this in the fall of the young man at Troas? There is no suggestion that he had love but there is restoration from the fall.

J.T. There is the suggestion I think, but of course the thing was yet in prospect; it had not yet happened. That chapter does not say it had happened at all, because it is a great love chapter. It begins with love, love is in the middle of it and it ends with love, how the elders fell upon the neck of the apostle and kissed him. Nevertheless the apostle is indicating the possibility of it, as he tells the elders, but there is no sign that it had yet happened. If the danger or the reason of it was immediate, as suggested in Eutychus, well, it is curable, it is remediable, because the boy is alive and is taken away by the saints; they have not lost. They are better off I would say.

H.H. Do you connect that incident with church recovery as under Paul?

J.T. I would think so. I think that is what is suggested and it is complete so far as it goes. It is a successful action because Paul went down; it is the love in him that is stressed. Paul's position is in mind, how far he was ready to go: if a young person

is tripped up and falls, he is ready to go that distance. As the Lord goes after two, Paul is ready to go after one, to go down from the third floor and enfold him in his arms. And he is able to say, not as Elijah said of the child whom he restored, that the life had gone out of him, but that "his life is in him", showing that he was in some sense in christianity. Life was there, the condition was remediable, and in fact was restored. The boy is said to have been taken away; he is worthwhile, "They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted", Acts 20:12. It is all in connection with the Lord's supper.

F.K.C. Do you think the effect would be to turn their minds to Paul's teaching, especially to the words he said when he called the elders over to Miletus?

J.T. They were affected by the fact that they should see his face no more, you mean? Quite so. The chapter is devoted to active affection in the saints, especially in Paul himself, the peculiar kind of affection he had and how he himself was the object of affection.

R.W.S. Paul says in writing to Timothy, "Even as I begged thee to remain in Ephesus, when I was going to Macedonia, that thou mightest enjoin some not to teach other doctrines", 1 Timothy 1:3. I was wondering whether he was living when this epistle reached the assembly at Ephesus. He was to enjoin some not to teach wrong doctrine.

J.T. Just so; he was left there to set things in order, so that there would be a perfecting of the work through him, which is remarkable. Order is the thought. Paul left him there to attend to that.

A.A.T. In speaking to Ephesus the Lord says many good things about them before He speaks of what He has against them. Is there a principle in that?

J.T. Quite so; that is very evident. Say all the good things you can. See what Paul said of the

Corinthians, "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men", 2 Corinthians 3:2. What was it that was "known and read of all men"? It was the good things that Paul was saying about them. He says, You are my letter; when I am among the saints I delight to talk about you Corinthians, because you are my letter. So they were. Who, that knew Corinth, could question his apostolic commission? That is what he means. "Examine your own selves if ye be in the faith", he says (2 Corinthians 13:5), so that his apostleship is attested in them. If I do not speak well of the saints my ministry is questionable; not what I am saying but what I am personally. I am not entitled to minister unless I can speak well of the saints.

E.I.E. The Spirit of God seems to stress the idea of repentance in every instance here.

J.T. Quite so; christianity is therefore the basis of much joy in heaven. The question arises how much repentance there is. Every one of us is to repent; surely none of us but would say, That is true, I have to learn to repent and to cause joy in heaven. There is one of whom the Lord says, "She will not repent", Revelation 2:21. Her will is in it! That is a terrible thing: if one is not repentant when there is a cause for it. The Lord has to say of Jezebel, "She will not repent". But here it is, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; but if not, I am coming to thee, and I will remove thy lamp out of its place, except thou shalt repent". He repeats the need for repentance. Then He adds the word, "Thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitanes". It is "works" here, not the doctrine, that had not come in yet, the destructive doctrine of Rome, the great feature of Babylon. They had not begun to promulgate their doctrine yet, showing that the Nicolaitanes may have works among the brethren even without the statement of doctrine. The doctrine

appears in the third church; they had it and that is really where the evil is entrenched. If you have the doctrine of an evil, if it has turned into doctrine, then it is positive wickedness.

A.A.T. Is it clericalism?

J.T. Well, that sort of thing, and it is legalised by doctrine. That is what has built up christendom. They had not the doctrine at Ephesus and they hated the works, showing that they were in a comparatively good state, and that explains these things we are saying of them. But when we come to Pergamos it is said, "So thou also hast those who hold the doctrine of Nicolaitanes in like manner".

Now in verse 8 we come to the second assembly, that is, Smyrna. We can look only at the main features of it and how they may be brought into our own times. This is an assembly affected by tribulation, and in our own times, at this very moment, certain conditions of tribulation which God has manifestly ordered have arisen on certain saints. It is no accident; it is to bring out what there is of the work of God. What has been transpiring in the last four or five years is to test out the work of God in His people, especially in certain parts of the earth. How much can you stand? What is needed? Why is it needed? So it says, "I know thy tribulation and thy poverty; but thou art rich; and the railing of those who say that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but a synagogue of Satan. Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life" (verses 9, 10). It seems to me that God in His governmental ways with us in our own times has allowed this to come about. It is speaking here of ten persecutions and how the devil directly was ordering these persecutions; but what we are dealing with today is

actually what God has permitted, and we may say, ordered. Certain conditions have arisen in certain sections of the earth where there are more of His people than in any other section of the same size, and it is not simply that they are persecuted in a spiritual sense but they are suffering physically to bring out what the work of God in them is capable of. It is to show the extent of His work, and to purify the saints and make them fit for more testimony. I believe that is the present moment.

W.W.M. Is that the meaning of the words, "That ye may be tried"?

J.T. That is the divine thought. Satan is the instrument. Notice the word 'Satan' in verse 9 is changed to "devil" in verse 10. There it is, "Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life". "That ye may be tried" is in the government of God. The devil is working as if he would overpower the brethren; I believe that is his aim. He would just overpower the brethren with trial, but they have not been overpowered, and that is the triumph, the work of God triumphing in such circumstances. It is the direct aim of the devil to crush the saints by the terrible physical attacks that have been made.

C.H.H. What a testimony to the triumph of the work of God we have in Daniel! How Satan worked so that he should be cast into the lions' den! Yet that act became a testimony, as also with the three in the fiery furnace.

J.T. Daniel brings out clearly what the work of God is capable of standing in the most distressing and trying circumstances.

W.W.M. Do the ten days give us encouragement in seeing that there is to be an end to the trial?

J.T. Just so; it is only for a certain number of days. Satan has not a free hand and he has not a very long time in which to act. Still, God may use him and does use him though his own furious attitude against the saints comes out. He says, as it were, If all these bombings keep on they will be overwhelmed; but they are not overwhelmed. It is a question of God and His work in His people.

H.B. Why should all this apply to an assembly for which the Lord does not seem to have any reproach?

J.T. It is a remarkable thing that the present extraordinary effort of the devil should take place. In truth a wonderful thing is happening to the people of God before our eyes. But nevertheless they meet together to worship God and to carry on His service in a general way. The trial goes on and on, and yet they are there, and they go on with the service of God.

I think it is a wonderful triumph. But to God be all the praise! Without Him who could stand?

R.W.S. You spoke of a further testimony as a result of this purging. Just what have you in mind?

J.T. The Lord may do something, something in the way of freshness perhaps, bringing about freshness and a little more light and clarity; but above all a little more love for God and for Christ and for one another. Satan is the adversary. "The devil" is accuser-he is called "the accuser of our brethren", Revelation 12:10.

H.H. It is important that God orders things, He does not just allow them, and He uses Satan (1 Corinthians 5:5).

J.T. That is very solemn indeed, and yet it is limited. Yet we often quote, "If those days had not been cut short, no flesh had been saved; but on account of the elect those days shall be cut short".

R.W.S. Is the testimony more in your mind than the rapture?

J.T. Yes, I would think that the amount of youth coming along, the number of persons, young brothers and young sisters too, would mean that another generation is in view and the Lord will be in it.

J.L.P. He will utilise those who have been faithful in these conditions in our day.

J.T. Yes; it is to bring out the work of God in its moral features; including what the saints are developing in the way of loyalty to Christ and care for one another.

Ques. Would Habakkuk fit in? God would make him to walk upon his high places.

J.T. Yes. He would continue on although certain things should happen that were adverse (Habakkuk 3:17 - 19).

R.H. Would "the crown of life" answer to Samson's hair growing again at the end?

J.T. You mean his hair beginning to grow: it was not a matter of grey hairs. Grey hairs would be a sign of old age, but hair beginning to grow would be an evidence of life. White hair is a guide in determining the beginning of leprosy, it is a sign of decline in life. But the recovery of Samson's hair-whatever his age, he would not have been very old when he died -- would look like the suggestion of life.

C.H.H. Would you say that God does not test His work until it is established that the work is there? In Abraham's case it was not until he had recovered from denying his wife that it says God would prove him.

J.T. I think that is good. It comes out in God's way with His people Israel. He did not lead them in the way of the Philistines because they had not known war and He would not have them exposed to it at first. I think that is very touching! God is considerate of us; He does not allow us to be tempted beyond our capability.

S.J.H. Does the fact that the Lord is causing the breaking of bread to continue even in Europe and the occupied countries lead you to expect to see results in this way?

J.T. I am sure all that is very encouraging. We do receive some letters from northern Europe, Switzer land and Italy. It is remarkable how the brethren go on. I am sure that is what God is aiming at, that at the end there will be something answering to the beginning, able to go on even in suffering.

Rem. The ministry of verse 8 seems suggestive, "These things says the first and the last, who became dead, and lived". That would be something special for the brethren at Smyrna. I suppose that idea would enter into our services too, the ability to touch a note that would apply to the particular need of the brethren at the moment. Then one notices that to every one of these assemblies we have the word, "Write". That service is still open, to minister to the brethren by writing, bringing in Christ in that way.

C.H.H. Though historically these three churches have passed away, yet the divine principles involved would still remain good for us.

J.T. Quite so; none of such things are just for a moment. It involves the matter of contributions, the collections among the brethren for the saints. Sometimes it is said the "special" one mentioned in a Corinthians was for a special occasion, whereas the principle governing that special occasion applies to special collections under any circumstances. It is a question of love working out and that cannot be limited at all. In fact these letters contemplate not only what is local either in time or place, but what is universal both in time and in place, that the principles that refer to Ephesus, for instance, can be applied universally wherever you have like circumstances. So if it is a matter of persecution, as we have here in Smyrna, we can transfer that thought to today. There

are ten days of persecution, and the Spirit of God enables us to face them. It may be more physical than religious, but nevertheless it is Satan's work and it is his effort to overwhelm the brethren. But God is saying, I have ordered this to bring out what the brethren are capable of. It is His own work and so we do not say, 'What has the devil wrought', but "What hath God wrought!". It is what He is doing to overcome what the devil is doing.

A.A.T. So do we give support financially?

J.T. Quite so; it is to aid what God is doing.

J.L.P. I understand that these expressions that come in earlier in this book, "the word of God" and "the testimony of Jesus", relate to John's commission. Are they two governing features that run right through the seven assemblies?

J.T. Just so, I am sure that is right; even the use of the seven assemblies of Asia is for convenience sake, to bring out other things, not simply to confine what is said to the province of Asia Minor. It is to govern the whole dispensation from that time onwards. "The scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation", 2 Peter 1:20.

R.D.G. Is the expression, "The synagogue of Satan", a suggestion that the opposition is combined, something organised? It is not something incidental.

J.T. I would say that. Organised opposition is the most potent; therefore a well-known religion, so prevalent in this very province, is organised first, last, and all the time. It is the very acme of organisation, probably sixteen centuries old. There is nothing else like it at all.

C.H.H. Is that what is spoken of in Ephesians as "systematized error"?

J.T. That is just what it is. The assembly at Ephesus would know that.

R.W.S. Is the synagogue a local thought as over against the assembly?

J.T. It would be, I think, to stress the idea of religion. It is a local thought but universal in its bearing. Of course Rome talks about the universal holy Catholic church, but it is not that, it is a local idea spread abroad. The Vatican is an organisation locally but its tentacles are gone abroad; it governs the Catholic system.

Ques. What about the next church, Pergamos, "where the throne of Satan is", and "where Satan dwells"? And then the next one, Thyatira, which speaks of "the depths of Satan"?

J.T. It is remarkable the way Satan is brought into these churches; the depths are in Thyatira, but the throne and the dwelling place are in Pergamos. Both of them refer to what was just mentioned, that it is a local idea only become universal. It cannot in itself, in its essential position, become universal, because the essential thing is in a locality; otherwise the Pope might live in Montreal or New York. There is something in the local idea: his throne and dwelling place are in Pergamos. That is what the Lord refers to as to the saints there, that they are peculiarly exposed. "I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells" (verse 13). It is a local position but became spread out and out on the principle of organisation, but not to strengthen the outer edges but the centre. It is a matter of the centre and circumference. The circumference may be weak in some cases, very weak, but the centre is always kept strong; that is the point: keep it strong. Hence the last great effort was to strengthen the central position by according infallibility to the Pope under certain conditions.

C.H.H. Would that indicate progressive evil, against which Timothy is to be strong in the faith?

J.T. Just so; the progressive iniquity begins, that is, the mystery of iniquity. I believe it can be traced in these letters. We are to understand mysteries, but we are not to dig into the depths of Satan; we are not capable of that; besides, there is danger in it. We know it is there and can name things without prying into them. The Colossians were in danger of entering into things they had not seen in the worship of angels; things that are beyond us. The devil works on these lines and we are to keep out of it, but at the same time we are to name things, even if evil; and in a certain way we can know them afar off.

Rem. Isaiah helps when he says, "Ye shall not say, Conspiracy, of everything of which this people saith, Conspiracy; and fear ye not their fear, and be not in dread", Isaiah 8:12.

J.T. Just so.

C.H.H. Would Ephesians 6 help us to contend against these powers of darkness?

J.T. "Against the universal lords of this darkness"; it is a spiritual matter. The devil is not concerned about mere local positions; he is aiming at the whole world. He is the god of this world, and he is the prince of it too. He is not concerned about leading men as such, he is concerned about himself, but he would support certain things and persons. He supports the beast, for instance. The dragon is the devil; he is only using other creatures for his own ends, nothing else.

W.W.M. Would it be necessary to be an overcomer at Ephesus in order to become an overcomer in Smyrna? In other words, is it requisite to return to first love in order to stand in Smyrna against the terrible onslaughts of Satan?

J.T. I think it is cumulative; that is, the overcomer in Ephesus ought to be able to go through. The same principles ought to go through in all the overcomers, only different features arise; but I would

say the overcomer in Ephesus would be equal to any combination of the devil.

H.H. Does Pergamos represent the idea of worldliness instead of tribulation?

J.T. Clearly; so we have the thought of Satan's throne and Satan's dwelling, and of the saints there too. They are in that position. Well now, what will the devil do if the saints are there? One of them is out-and-out, he is Antipas. He is thoroughly against the thing that the devil is working in and he is killed. He is not a young man, you may be sure. I mean that the devil cannot overcome him by worldliness. John says to the young men, "Love not the world, nor the things in the world. If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him", 1 John 2:15. So the devil would endeavour to overcome young people by the world. He is the god and prince of it and he has the means if he dwells there and his throne is there. He has all the means to bring in pleasures, plenty of arenas and plenty of things to keep young people going. He would aim to draw the young into the cinemas and theatres. He aims at that, he has the means of doing it in the various sources of pleasure in the world, as indeed the prodigal experienced. If possible the devil will overcome our youth by the world. He wants them; he does not want them to be slain but he wants them under the influence of the world. But Antipas, he did not want him! Antipas is against the father. Who is the father? Well, it is a fatherly system of wickedness and that thing has come into the locality, the idea of the father; and because Antipas is against it they put him to death. So the Lord says in regard to that: "Thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith". Notice that: My name and My faith. "Even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells". Satan would not tolerate an Antipas. Satan represents the father, the

father of the system, and if there is anyone against him, as Antipas was, he must die! That is the devil's way: he will either corrupt us or destroy us. So the Lord is speaking here of Antipas as being out-and-out, representing what He is looking for.

C.H.H. You mean he was against the devil in the sense of father?

J.T. Yes, whatever he would be in a fatherly sense.

C.H.H. I was thinking of Barabbas; is that the same thing?

J.T. Quite so.

R.H. Why does it say, "Slain among you"? Has it any connection with the Lamb in chapter S?

J.T. "Slain among you", I should think it is a reflection on them. Why should he be there? It looks as if they were under those circumstances themselves. "Slain among you, where Satan dwells"; it is a suspicious combination of words, "Among you", and "Where Satan dwells".

M.W.A. It speaks of those "who hold the doctrine of Nicolaitanes"; do you think that would stand in contrast to "Antipas my faithful witness"?

J.T. Quite so, and "the doctrine of Balaam", these two go together. What Balaam would bring in would be out-and-out worldliness, of the worst kind. "Who taught Balak to cast a snare before the sons of Israel, to eat of idol sacrifices and commit fornication". That is out-and-out wickedness. It is the doctrine, not simply that the thing is there. It was there at Corinth but it was not taught as a doctrine; here it is taught as a doctrine. Then the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes would be the clerical system as doctrinising and allowing these things as running along with the doctrine of Balaam.

W.W.W. Would 2 Timothy be the outlet from this? "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity" (chapter 2: 19).

J.T. It would be, because the Lord speaks here of the sword He had, that it was the sword of His mouth (verse 16). It is not simply what was written but what had been said against the evil. It is the word of God spoken in the mouth, ministry, not simply writing but in the mouth; and that is what He would use: faithful men like Antipas to speak to people. Antipas had stood as a faithful witness.

C.H.H. Would you say that people who hold bad doctrine will ultimately teach it? Do you not think when people seek fellowship amongst us they should be challenged as to certain things: for instance, household baptism and sonship? I have known people seeking the fellowship who do not hold the truth as to household baptism. Do you think it should be a test of the fellowship to challenge people as to what they hold?

J.T. I am sure that is right. If we find one who refuses household baptism it is very questionable if he is in fellowship. If he is 'in' formally you would allow him to be there as in it; but the truth of that matter has been clear for years and years and has been followed generally by the brethren. How could you regard anyone refusing it as suitable for fellowship? But the word, "With the sword of my mouth" is very important. Let us have the thing clear ourselves by our mouths; the things we speak of. That is what is spoken, that is the sure antidote to all this that is described in verses 12 to 16.

R.W.S. It speaks in verse 12 of the "two-edged sword". Would the minister use that on himself first? He will examine himself.

R.H. Would this work out in a ministry meeting?

J.T. I think that is right. The Lord is helping us on these lines. Since ministry meetings became customary, God has used them to call attention to current things that are wrong, bringing in the positive truth to correct what is not right.

C.H.H. Would not these addresses to the churches be a true indication of what the prophetic subject is? "The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus", Revelation 19:10. It is what Jesus has to say to conditions that are abnormal.

J.T. It is really illustrative of ministry meetings. The Lord is blessing them in the meetings.

J.L.P. The Lord constantly says here, "I know". Following up our brother's remark, what we know would help us in ministering a word to the saints.

J.T. Just so.

R.D.G. Is there any significance in the fact that Balaam's activities in the Old Testament are made so clear in this scripture? We do not get so definitely there that he was as evil as the New Testament points him out to be.

J.T. It shows that the New Testament is essential to the right understanding of the Old. But they slew Balaam. He was found in the last battle with the Midianites; he was slain, showing he had links with them. The New Testament explains it; that he taught them what to do. The Old Testament tells us what they did, the outcome of his doctrine, and also that he was slain in the battle.

R.H. Do you make a difference between going on with a man who is not fully with us on every point and receiving one into fellowship in the same position?

J.T. I do. If we receive such an one we are allowing in through the gates someone we know is not right and that is not commendable. If he is already inside the gates, that is another matter. Then we have to be sure as to what he holds, whether it is a root condition or a leprous condition in him. That would all have to come up. Certainly if the thing is there at all before he is inside it will never do to let him in, because the wrong doctrine he holds is coming through the gates. No gate-keepers who are gate

keepers according to the figure in this book of Revelation will let a man in unless he is in accord with what is inside. He could not eat of the tree of life unless he has washed his robes, and that applies to what he holds in doctrine.

THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (3)

Revelation 3:1 - 22

J.T. The address to the assembly at Thyatira must be included in what comes before us at this time, beginning with verse 18 of chapter 2. That address was read yesterday afternoon but not touched in our remarks, so that we have four assemblies to consider now. We shall have to be more or less brief in our remarks so that all may be covered. The assemblies especially before us now are Thyatira and Philadelphia. The errors in Thyatira may be counteracted by the virtues indicated in Philadelphia, for the two assemblies run together; they are prophetically contemporary. There is a peculiar kind of responsibility attached to angels in Thyatira, as indicated in what is said to the angel there. The Lord says, "But I have against thee that thou permittest the woman Jezebel, she who calls herself prophetess, and she teaches and leads astray my servants", Revelation 2:20. The brethren no doubt have noticed that the word 'woman' may be translated 'wife', so that we are reminded of a household situation in Thyatira, in which there is the wife and the one who is responsible in regard of her. Her conduct is terrible, but still it is a household situation that is in mind. It shows what christendom has become, a sort of administration contemplating a household, and the responsible element, that is, the angel, is neglectful. The Lord says, "Thou permittest the woman Jezebel", as if her husband were ignoring the officious conduct of his wife. He knew it, he was there and responsible, but he failed to check it, to have it corrected. He permitted it, the allusion being, as the teaching shows, to the situation in the reign of Ahab in which Elijah ministered. It was a

situation marked by conduct which was dreadful, Jezebel being the wife of the king who was responsible and who, to some extent, was amenable to reproof; indeed at one time he humbled himself and God owned it, but still negatively, and he went on to ruin, showing that where there is a neglect of household responsibility and restraint the end is sure to be ruinous.

C.H.H. It says in Kings that she urged Ahab on to sin. I was wondering whether she would be in contrast to Abigail, the true wife you might say. Does this woman really develop into Babylon?

J.T. That is what the teaching of the book brings out. She is seen more in a political relation later, that is, in chapters 16, 17 and 18, especially in 17, where she rides the beast. Then she is spoken of as saying in her heart that she sits a queen, not a wife, but a queen (chapter 18:7). Of course the queen Jezebel was a wife, but what is said is that she said in her heart, "I sit a queen, and I am not a widow; and I shall in no wise see grief". Here it is the household position, hardly a kingdom position, but the household.

H.H. What do you mean as to the household?

J.T. A husband and wife and the children: they are all alluded to. Then there are those in the setting, the religious position, that are responsible as Ahab was. They are responsible for the house. It is not as the wife is responsible in Proverbs, one who is viewed as faithful, her husband being known in the gates. Jezebel is over against this; her husband is simply unable to deal with the situation, and this person or wife pursues her wicked ways unhindered.

Ques. Would John's second epistle indicate the right conditions prevailing in the elect lady and her children? She is found walking in the truth.

J.T. I think that is good; she is called the "elect lady", and she was faithful over against this wicked person. Peter has a similar expression: "She that

is elected with you in Babylon salutes you", 1 Peter 5:13. The allusion would be either to his wife or to an assembly there, but in either case it is a matter of the husband's sense of responsibility.

R.W.S. Is the believer's household like an antechamber to the assembly? If Satan can secure something in the household he is attacking God's assembly.

J.T. I am sure that is the truth. Satan attacks our houses. He attacks the local assemblies, too, and the leaders, the brethren or elders who are responsible. The masculine side would be in the leaders, those who attend the care meetings or wherever rule is maintained. 1 Timothy 5 helps on this line, and indeed the whole teaching of Timothy helps as to how rule is maintained and how it bears on the assembly. So that as the sisters grow older they are not to be put on the list until they are sixty, showing that the assembly is not to be damaged in any way by persons for whom it cares financially. It shows too that youth is not an asset; it is a liability really. Younger women are enjoined to marry so that there should be children to be brought up for the Lord. Children are a sort of check in households, a sort of balance, a responsibility that helps to balance the position.

A.A.T. You were calling attention to the Nicolaitanes and the difference between their works and their doctrine. I notice here that Jezebel teaches; that would take in doctrine.

J.T. It is well to bring that up. It is said, "She teaches and leads astray my servants"; and then we are told in verse 24, "But to you I say, the rest" (that is, the remnant) "who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine ...". The allusion is to what she teaches, so that we have to watch the feminine power rising, attempting to teach in the profession and acquiring pre-eminence above the masculine feature. That is what has developed in Rome, because this paragraph in chapter 2 is early in the history of

the assembly. The later chapters deal with later conditions, more political conditions, but this is somewhat earlier in the history when she took root, not as a queen, but as a wife. She took root and acquired power and corrupted; she became the great corruptress of the earth.

W.F.K. She calls herself a prophetess. That is a false position, is it not?

J.T. Quite so; that is what the system we are alluding to does.

W.F.K. Jezebel had false prophets and maintained them.

J.T. She slew the prophets of the Lord. The following queen, Athaliah, would have slain and did slay the seed royal as far as she could; that is to say, the royalty of Christ and the prophetic ministry of Christ. These two women represent Satan's instruments to overcome by evil.

A.B. "She ... leads astray my servants", that is on the masculine side. The note says, 'bondmen'. They were led astray.

J.T. Quite so. It shows it was at an early stage of the history of the assembly, but that the system had already taken effect, and in a very subtle and powerful way that the masculine had failed to restrain. The corruption was allowed to go on.

A.B. Was that seen in Jezebel's writing a letter in the king's name and using his seal on it, taking the matter entirely out of Ahab's hand?

J.T. Just so, that helps. He was weak in all that. What develops in that section of z Kings is that God had great regard for royalty at the moment. Bad as Ahab was, the prophet had already come and spoken to him, and God says to him, You are going to lead Israel. And he did lead Israel and led victoriously, so that there is no excuse for him. He is man enough on those lines, man enough to make war, but not man enough on household lines to correct his wife and

children. So that here in Revelation Jezebel in the character of a wife becomes the great corruptress; and in later chapters branches out in a queenly way, a more royal way, you may say, bringing down the wrath of heaven. There is more exultation over her overthrow than over anything else in the book.

H.H. What you are saying is an important word for the home circle now.

J.T. The devil gets in in that way. He gets in with the fashions of the world and its pleasures, and the lack of restraint from the masculine side is what he is counting on. His ideas are positively operating in the feminine side, in the mothers and the sisters.

C.H.H. The prophet Ezekiel complained in chapter 43: 8 that there was only a wall between the houses of the kings and the temple, and that they were corrupting God's house by what was going on in their houses.

J.T. There is a great deal made in Ezekiel of Jehovah's love for Israel. That is, for Jerusalem really, because Jerusalem is taken up in the time of David. How God regarded her! what she was like when He found her, and how she developed in beauty and then failed Him utterly.

R.W.S. In the promise to the rest: "To you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I do not cast upon you any other burden", who are "they" in the words, "they say"?

J.T. That is Rome, I would think. Rome would aver that the real ones were influenced by the devil; that is what I think is meant. The speakers were the enemy's instruments: "As many as .. have not known the depths of Satan, as they say". It is the kind of language that the professional people would use as to any work of God, because the time had come for the real separation. The remnant had begun to take form, and the enemy, through the leaders in

Rome, would attribute to them what really was attributable to the official class, the Jezebel class. That class began at Pergamos where Antipas was slain; it is on the lines of which we are speaking now. The opposition to what was of God was there. The remnant is not spoken of there; it is spoken of first in Thyatira, and the enemy is given to know that God is moving.

A.B. Is that like the great cry of heresy that Rome raised?

J.T. The word 'heresy' became emblazoned in their vocabulary, whereas Paul was the one who introduced it. Throughout the history it is applied to the real people of God and of course at the time of the Reformation it became a very far-flung thought. Heresy against the truth was charged against the christians, whereas in truth the heresy was in the public and leading class.

H.H. Would the attack be made on the overcomer by this class?

J.T. Just so. And therefore you would need to be an overcomer in view of this in order to make room for the Spirit. So the word is, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". The word to the assemblies comes in after that to the overcomer, so that no one will hear the Spirit's word unless he overcomes these things, these conditions.

F.K.C. In relation to, "her children will I kill with death"-is that a kind of doctrinal thing, such as the doctrine of transubstantiation and the worship of images, which Satan has introduced?

J.T. Just so. Possibly the Eastern elements are in mind and had something to do with the dead condition that ensued; but it spread over the whole of christendom and her children. The Lord says, I will kill them "with death". It would be moral death, not literal death. Satan would kill the saints in Smyrna with literal death, but now the Lord takes that weapon

over and uses it against the children of Jezebel. That is, they die morally; the doctrine is so deadly that they cease to have any life at all. Let anyone travel through Europe, southern Europe particularly, and he will be impressed with the deadness that there is.

A.A.T. I think you would be impressed with it in Montreal.

J.T. Well, there is probably more virus here; they are in touch more with Protestantism here, as in Ireland. The thing is kept going. But where you have masses of people without any opposition, without anything but the sort of thing that Jezebel has, there is lust deadness. And of course Rome flourishes in that darkness.

E.A.L. How far would you go in placing the responsibility of these false doctrines? Would you link them entirely with clericalism?

J.T. These elements that flourish in Thyatira are seen in the previous church: the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes and the doctrine of Balaam are there, and now we have Jezebel's doctrine: "She who calls herself prophetess, and she teaches and leads astray my servants to commit fornication and eat of idol sacrifices". This has to be taken as pure out-and-out worldliness, shameful conduct. "And I gave her time that she should repent, and she will not repent of her fornication". Then follows the statement of the legal judicial action: "Behold, I cast her into a bed, and those that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and her children will I kill with death; and all the assemblies shall know ...". It had not happened yet at this writing; the teaching was current but the penalty had not yet been enforced. It has been since.

Ques. What is the thought of the bed?

J.T. Well, it is the close association with evil, idolatry brought in, heathen practices brought in;

not only judaism, but heathendom taken on and practised.

-.M. What is the thought in "I will give to you each according to your works"?

J.T. It is to stress what He had against the main body, the whole body, as He said earlier: "I have against thee that thou permittest the woman Jezebel ...". Then comes, "I will give to you each according to your works"; that is, the Lord will deal with each one of them according to their works, to each one in the public body. Then verse 24 says, "But to you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine"; this is where we get the real parting of the ways; the rest involves the remnant; the rest is over against the main body"who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I do not cast upon you any other burden; but what ye have hold fast till I shall come". So now the Lord is speaking to a class or a part of the whole body of believers, and He is marking them off as spoken to separately. He is marking them off as if He is leaving to the main body these words as to Jezebel, that "she will not repent", and what He will do to her and her children. It is true there is a word as to repentance, but it says, "She will not repent", so there is no hope at all for her. The book tells us later that she is to be destroyed root and branch, and the judgment will go on eternally, showing what heaven thinks about it, but the remnant is spoken of by itself, and the overcomer is put before the hearing of the Spirit, as if He is saying, I am not going to minister to the public body; I am going to minister to those who have overcome or who are in principle overcomers.

Ques. Did the parting of the ways take place in the Reformation?

J.T. It did historically; that is what happened.

C.H.H. Would you suggest that now there is no "rest", as referred to, in Thyatira?

J.T. No, unless you take the word Thyatira as a divisional word, as one of the seven divisions; in that case it involves the public body, which is yet responsible. But the Spirit of God has in mind that there is a system, and that the matter is settled in their case. In principle, the whole system is judged. It is only a matter of time till God will bring it up to remembrance for destruction.

F.C. Why does the Lord connect repentance at all with such a system?

J.T. It shows God's attitude; it is still the christian dispensation, and the Lord is true to that. That helps us, too, in our souls.

A.A.T. As to verse 21, "And I gave her time that she should repent", is there a principle in that that in connection with our handling of evil we should give time for repentance?

J.T. I think so; I think we ought to make the thing clear and then give time for repentance, because that gives time for the Spirit of God to operate. The dispensation may be said to be the dispensation of the Spirit, and that means that time must be given for Him to operate. But then, the Lord has said here authoritatively that she will not repent, so the system is doomed.

H.H. Is that not characteristic of persons who, so to say, secede from right fellowship, that you seldom hear of repentance? The thing goes on.

J.T. Usually when the system is connected with it, it becomes a systematised matter; there is judicial doom attached to it.

M.W.A. Does it suggest here that there is ministry that should bring about repentance when He says, "I gave her time that she should repent", ministry brought before them but not taken in and acted upon?

J.T. That usually goes with such circumstances. God never leaves Himself without a witness, and certainly there has been witness even up to the present

time. There has been testimony to this situation and the remnant is in mind, for the Lord has the remnant in mind. But this refusal to repent morally finishes the matter as far as the system is concerned; the general position is settled when the Lord says, "She will not repent". He continues, I will do so-and-so, and so-and-so, and when that begins to take place the matter is settled. But the idea of the remnant runs on, and we shall see it in Philadelphia.

R.H. What is the idea of "all the assemblies" in verse 23? "And all the assemblies shall know that I am he that searches the reins and the hearts".

J.T. I would take that to be just the general position of the profession. The Lord sees to it that the matter is closed. I suppose historically that came out at the Reformation; the whole general position became aware of what was current. Of course that period in church history is most interesting as to what the Spirit was doing, and what evidences there were of His work; also the principle of the whole becoming acquainted with the actual situation.

C.H.H. Would previous history enter into this matter of repentance, as in Esau's case? You were speaking in your address as to a certain fixity that would arise where one is already doomed.

J.T. That is true. It came about with the Amorites and with Esau. God did not say at the beginning that He hated Esau, He says it in Malachi, meaning that it was when the conduct of Esau became public. The time comes when God says, It is finished.

S.R.McC. God's dealings with Thyatira are to turn our eyes inward to see the kind of God we have, who searches the reins and the hearts.

J.T. "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies". What the Spirit says is much wider than what the Lord says. What the Lord says is only the text of your address, but the address itself is much wider. Therefore it would mean

that in the address, in the full bearing of what He says, He searches the reins and hearts. The reins are the lower organs of the person; the heart is the upper and intelligent organ. The Lord does not deal with these any more simply in externals. That is what came out at the Reformation: the thoughts of many hearts were revealed. What a revelation there was of the state of christendom!

R.H. Why is it that the first feature of the remnant is connected with doctrine rather than with practice? "As many as have not this doctrine", it says.

J.T. It would be a question of whether they were really clear of the system. The Lord could hardly recognise them as a remnant unless they were clear of the system. People began to judge of it even down in Italy and in France; and in Bohemia too the Spirit of God raised exercises and they began to judge it. They judged the doctrine on which the system was built up.

C.DeB. Is this the first time the coming of the Lord is mentioned? In chapter 22 it says, "I come quickly". Is not this different?

J.T. Well, what it says in verse 25, "But what ye have hold fast till I shall come", is said to the remnant, not to the whole public system. It continues, "And he that overcomes"; as much as to say the Holy Spirit will keep on ministering, though on smaller lines, no doubt; but He will keep on ministering, and if He is doing that, then there must be overcomers. He is not going to keep on ministering to that system, He has dealt with it. So that He says, "And he that overcomes, and he that keeps unto the end my works, to him will I give authority over the nations, and he shall shepherd them with an iron rod; as vessels of pottery are they broken in pieces, as I also have received from my Father; and I will give to him the morning star". That is the position. Then verse 29 shows that the ministry is going on but it is those

that are overcoming who will get the good of it. Hence there is the renewal of things, a change-over, the ministry continuing on, but on smaller lines. Nevertheless it is real, and in view, not of the past but of the future, the future kingdom when the Lord will come and rule the nations with a rod of iron. These devoted ones are under His eye and they will join Him and rule with Him. In the meantime they will get ministry. "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies"; not to one, but to all of them, so that the general position of the dispensation is maintained in the Spirit; for it is the dispensation of the Spirit.

W.F.K. The Roman system goes in for rule and authority, but here it is the overcomer that will rule and shepherd.

J.T. The overcomer has the light of that, that he is going to rule. Rome says she is still ruling, but in view of the continuance of the ministry, which is the last verse, I believe history shows that Rome set itself up in opposition to the Holy Spirit. Then the Bull of Infallibility was intended to check or overcome the actual ministry of the dispensation, which is that of the Spirit of God. We are coming under that at the present time.

Rem. She calls herself a prophetess.

J.T. She has done that. Of course, the Bull of Infallibility is the full expression of that. The Pope is said to be infallible under certain circumstances, a terrible thing. But we are finding out today, as the brethren have been doing for many years, that the dispensation of the Spirit still holds.

J.R.H. Is the searching of the reins and the hearts to fit us into the conditions of transparency found in the end of the book, as over against the secret side seen in the bed and the existence of holy orders and all that kind of thing?

J.T. Transparency is a word which applies to what we are saying; the system we are dealing with does not know it at all. They ignore it. It is darkness they maintain; they flourish in darkness. Our dispensation is a dispensation of light, but that means the dispensation of the Spirit. It is the day of the Spirit.

E.A.L. It is interesting to see the distinctions here. Jezebel calls herself a prophetess, a title for which she has no authority. Then the overcomer is on the masculine side. Is that right? There is no recognition of headship in her calling herself a prophetess.

J.T. She assumes that role of feminine rule; so that finally she becomes a queen. She moves over from the title of prophetess to become a queen: "I sit a queen, and am no widow". She has no felt need whether her husband be dead or alive. She is not a widow. It is a political position she has acquired, so that she is, as it were, self-contained. She came into very close quarters recently with destruction, because anyone can see how easily it could happen if God so ordered. She thinks she has a permanent tenure of life, but she has not.

Rem. "As I also have received from my Father". Is that not interesting as being the Lord's second mention in this book of the Father in relation to the assembly? There seems to be a suggestion of the way this system is set up, how the head of it receives this title, which is so foreign to it.

J.T. He is called 'Holy Father'. The Lord used that designation in addressing His Father. He refers to Him here: the overcomer "shall shepherd them with an iron rod; as vessels of pottery are they broken in pieces, as I also have received from my Father". That is the kingdom that He has received from His Father. We shall see more of it later; He will say to Laodicea that "he that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as I also have

overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne". That is His present position, that He has sat down with His Father in His throne. But presently He is going to sit on His own throne, and He is telling the overcomer here that he is going to sit with Him on His throne, as He has received from His Father; that is to say, the Lord takes everything from His Father. He is going to have a throne of His own, and the overcomer will sit with Him there; so that all this is in prospect.

A.R.C. Why does the allusion to hearing the Spirit's voice precede that to the overcomer in the earlier assemblies, while in the latter ones you have the overcoming first and then the ear to hear?

J.T. It is to show that if you are in Rome and stay there you will not get the ministry of the Spirit; you have not an ear or you would not stay there. If you have an ear you will come out of it, you will be an overcomer and then you will hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. "Let him hear"; the responsibility still attaches to you, but you are to hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies. So we are on very wide ground, the dispensation of the Spirit.

W.W.W. Would the morning star bring us into the light of another day?

J.T. Quite so; it is another day coming in. We have to wait for that. It is a dark world around us, and no one can be conscious really of that coming day unless he sees that we are in darkness all around politically and religiously.

A.B. Would "the depths of God" be set over against "the depths of Satan"? An apprehension of them would have a great consolidating effect in our souls.

J.T. Quite so; the Spirit of God searches the depths of God and brings them into our souls.

A.B. Is the morning star connected with the principle of rule?

J.T. It refers to the coming day of glory. It is a gift-Christ Himself in this connection as said in chapter 22: 16.

C.H.H. Would the iron rod indicate the inflexibility of God's principles while on the other hand Thyatira has broken down all restraint?

J.T. Quite so; as applied to the nations it is inflexibility. In the coming day a sinner of a hundred years will be cut off, there is no hope; whereas today God is allowing things to go on because it is a dispensation of grace. So Isaiah 26:9 says that "when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness", that is, when they are shepherded with an iron rod. They are not learning it now.

C.H.H. Would you say that in the assembly there should be the recognition in a moral way of this iron rod, the maintaining of divine principles without any flexibility at all?

J.T. You need to be inflexible in order to use the rod. In our local positions today we have to learn to be patient, but in the millennium there will be the rule of Christ on His own throne. Of course Satan will be bound. It is the time in which God is setting out certain things, and He is going to take a long time to set them out, a thousand years. It will be a wonderful kingdom because it is the final issue, when God will show how He can control men in flesh and blood conditions. It has never been thus demonstrated in any dispensation. This is the dispensation of grace, and God is bearing with people, but He is not going to continue it indefinitely. He would say, as it were, I am going to have a time for Myself, one thousand years, in which I will show how principles can be set up by which men may be controlled. Then there will be no allowance of man's will; a sinner of

one hundred years will be cut off. But then it comes out when Satan is loosed that the flesh is still un changed. It had been held in check by the wonderful principles of Christ's kingdom. But the nations under Satan's leadership will come up on the breadth of the earth, and then fire comes down from heaven and destroys them all (Revelation 20:7 - 9).

H.H. The thought of recovery goes a long way in connection with what you have just been saying as to the millennium. I suppose you would allow that it is not new creation, but the recovery of things for God on earth under the rule of Christ.

J.T. It is recovery, not on the principle of new creation but on the principle of the old. The new principles that God will set up in that day will control sin, even although it be there; for it is there and will show itself when Satan is let loose. But during the millennium it is held in check. I think it is a great test, a great final exhibition of what God can do, an answer, as it were, to the suggestion that God cannot control man in the flesh. He can do it, He has means of doing it, and those means will be in the hands of Christ. But the matter will be terminated according to chapter 20; the nations will go up on the breadth of the earth, as if Satan acquires a free hand with no longer any international restrictions; as if he can interfere with any territory. God allows that, but only that he might come to his utter ruin and all that are with him.

W.W.W. Is it not a great victory that God has at the present moment those who are governed by divine principles before Satan is chained?

J.T. Quite; divine principles are being maintained in the assembly. It is the same thing now in the assembly as it will be in the millennium; it is a very great matter. We should see to it in our care meetings, in eldership, that things are searched out and dealt with according to these principles. It was

in accordance with this that the man in Corinth was handed over to Satan; the power of God did it: "I ... have already judged ... (ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ), him that has so wrought this: to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan". It will be the same thing in the millennium only in a more public and extended way.

But to go on, we cannot spend much time on Sardis, which is just Protestantism. There is not much in it, the Lord does not indicate anything much in that period. Nevertheless He has the seven Spirits of God, meaning that He has the same power as before; the seven Spirits allude to that. And He has the seven stars. It does not say He holds them but He has them. "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things that remain, which are about to die, for I have not found thy works complete before my God". So that there is nothing there, you might say, nothing that we can rest in. They are dead or about to die, but still He goes on at the end and says, "I will come upon thee as a thief". It is a distressing thing and ought to arouse anxiety that He will come as a thief. And then it says, "But thou hast a few names in Sardis which have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white, because they are worthy". So that there is not much to say. I suppose historically it would be the Reformation and what followed in the servants the Lord used before the idea of the assembly was thoroughly revived and began to function.

R.H. Why is the thought of watching stressed in Sardis?

J.T. I suppose the Lord would have whatever there is in that period kept alive by watchfulness. There were individuals. There is hardly anything you can speak of as the assembly, so that there is not

much in the account to rest in; still there were a few, which in itself has a peculiar voice: "a few names in Sardis".

H.H. I was noticing the footnote to verse 2: it reads, instead of "Be watchful", 'Become so'.

R.W.S. We have a few hymns from those few names.

J.T. We have a good many. One has noticed of late the number of hymns that we have from that period, though since the revival by the Spirit of the truth of the assembly one would not take on any hymns that disregard it. You will not find any such taken on after the Bethesda matter arose, after the truth of the assembly came out and was refused in Bethesda. We have some hymns by brethren that were with Bethesda, but written before they went there. I do not think any were accepted, or should be, from such authorship, or from any who remain outwardly in Thyatira. We have a great many from previous centuries and from the last century, up until about 1830, before the truth of the assembly came out; we have had none since from sources not in the truth, nor shall we have any more.

S.R.McC. Would you bring that exercise into the household: not to have hymn books in the house other than those in keeping with the truth?

J.T. It is a household matter in the true sense, that is, in the sense in which the Holy Spirit has part in it.

S.R.McC. I was thinking of such hymns as Moody's and Sankey's.

J.T. Well, of course, Moody and Sankey brought forward many of those earlier hymns of which we were speaking, but none of our own that I know of, because they came in after the truth was revived. But those who wrote hymns that were right, we will say, before that, were accepted, such as Charles Wesley's and others like them. What I am saying is,

I think, right, and the Lord's hand was over it too. These extraneous hymns will never be permitted if the Lord has His way.

W.W.W. Those hymns that we have from past centuries were written in the light that existed at that time.

J.T. The authors wrote simply in the light they had, but things changed after the Spirit began to function in the assembly. A person's product now must be tested by whether the Spirit of God has had His way with the author.

J.S. Do you think that those not walking in the truth could write hymns suitable for the assembly?

J.T. I do not think they could. They might write them verbally, but I do not think they would be in keeping with the idea of this dispensation. It is the dispensation of the Spirit. Of course it is the Lord's dispensation, but it is the dispensation of the Spirit and the dispensation of grace.

H.H. We have hymns in our book written by brethren who at one time walked with us but do not now.

J.T. Some by Tregelles are very good; he was with us when he wrote those hymns, but he did not remain with us. Many earlier hymns that were verbally right are being used.

Rem. Those words of a hymn in our previous book: 'Thy death has brought to light the Father's heart' sound very plausible, but they are not in line with the truth as taught by the Holy Spirit.

J.T. That was written by James Boyd, a brother in fellowship when he wrote it. The hymn would have been accepted but for that very line.

C.H.H. What about literature written by people who are not walking in the truth, children's books and the like?

J.T. I do not think they should be taken on at all. We have to bear in mind the honour due to the Spirit of God. The Lord says that anyone who says a word

against the Spirit of God shall never be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come.

W.W.M. Do you not think if we took on more the ministry of those that were walking in the truth at any time in question, we should have very little time to read other ministry?

J.T. Quite so; there is plenty of food. The Lord thought of the matter of food when He said of those providing it, "Blessed is that bondman whom his lord on coming shall find doing thus", Matthew 24:46.

L.R. What has been said would include such works as the Schofield Bible?

J.T. Quite so; that is a work that has come in since the Holy Spirit has been disregarded. I could not take on that. Of course you might take on things for the sake of examination; there are things you might learn from many by comparison; but as regards positive things that belong to the saints we must recognise the Spirit.

C.H.H. Would that apply to the mothers in connection with the religious books they buy for their children from other sources than our tract depot?

J.T. I know there is likely to be a good deal of looseness in that line and what we are saying now is intended to check it, that we are to honour the Spirit of God. The Lord stresses it that if any one shall say a word against the Spirit, it shall never be forgiven either in this age or in that which is to come.

R.H. What about those words of hymn 234: 'Who, by His wondrous dying, Revealed, O God, thy heart'? That statement is addressed to the Father.

J.T. You do not think that is incorrect, do you? The heart of the Father was revealed in the Son before He died, but it is the heart of God that was revealed in the death of Christ. The revelation of the Father was before that.

R.H. It is a little ambiguous, for the hymn is praise to the Father.

J.T. What has been said clarifies it. The revelation is said to be of God's heart. I think the hymn was examined carefully before insertion.

W.W.M. Should we not make ourselves more familiar with the New Translation as we think of the service of the brother that put it into our hands? There are his hymns too in the book we have been speaking of, the help he has given us in this way in the service of God.

J.T. The Spirit of God raised up that brother in a special way. He spent many years in translating the Bible into German, French and English, and it is the best translation unquestionably that there is in any of these languages. He spent much time in Elberfeld, Germany, in France, and of course in England, so that we have the best there is in those three languages and in Italian, too, I think. And alongside of that are his hymns. They stand alongside of the Scriptures, not of course on the same level, but I believe they stand alongside for enhancing the ministry that God gave. We have all that and recently we have a concordance of this translation which is very useful to any who wish to get the truth. The Lord would, I am sure, lay it upon us that there is plenty for us directly from the Spirit to carry us through.

Rem. The Lord says to Philadelphia, "Hold fast what thou hast". The Lord has given us much.

J.T. Quite so. We have to look now at Philadelphia and Laodicea, and then tomorrow at the assembly as coming down out of heaven as a bride. That will be on more positive lines than these two chapters but Philadelphia leads on to it. Really we might say that what has developed spiritually during the last one hundred and twenty years is what is alluded to in Philadelphia, and we are in it now. It will go on to the end. Laodicea is a sort of outlet for the effort of the devil over against that, but Philadelphia

is very close to the ministry of the Spirit in this dispensation of the Spirit.

R.H. Is the Laodicean condition what we are peculiarly exposed to now?

J.T. That is what I would think, that is the thing to watch now. Sardis is running on, you might say, but it is a dead thing, there is not much to say about it. What is there today that you can find of any value in the merely external profession of christendom? What you get by the Spirit is the only thing of value and that stands connected with Philadelphia. Laodicea is a sort of pretension that has arisen in that connection.

C.H.H. Would you place the companies that have seceded from the truth in that class?

J.T. I think in principle they are there. If you get a systematised thing, as in all these bodies to which we often allude, it has to be watched and refused. I believe the Lord is helping us to refuse these imitations. Sardis is not a form of imitation; Laodicea is.

R.H. In connection with what you say as to what is systematised, J.N.D. refers to Bethesda in that way.

H.H. I suppose you could not quite understand the true nature of Laodicea if there were not a Philadelphian side also.

J.T. I think that is true. God has graciously given us the positive, and the dispensation as revived involves Christ in heaven and the Spirit here with the assembly formed and functioning. Therefore the dispensation in principle stands. Laodicea in its characteristics is an effort of the enemy on the principle of imitation. So in a Timothy Jannes and Jambres are brought down to us from the Old Testament. Their names had not been spoken of before; they are imitators and they withstood Moses on that principle.

Rem. These features of Laodicea may be amongst us.

J.T. Only that what you have amongst people that are in the main right is not systematised, whereas they are systematised, and the systematisation is where the evil lies.

R.W.S. Where do you see it systematised? Have you in mind something special?

J.T. It is systematised error, that is the phrase in Ephesians 4:14.

H.B. In Philadelphia the Lord speaks of the synagogue of Satan. Would that not be a system?

J.T. Quite so; it is a local suggestion. The synagogue is a local thought. I think Rome is never anything else but local.

C.H.H. Systematised error is in connection with teaching: "In unprincipled cunning, with a view to systematized error", Ephesians 4:14.

J.T. That is the thing that we have to deal with all around us. All the sects are systematised, but we are now dealing, not simply with ordinary Protestant sects, but with imitations of the truth, of the true thing; the name of 'brethren' attaching to them all.

F.K.C. Would you say that the Lord's words to Laodicea, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot", express the position Bethesda took as regards the Person of Christ?

J.T. That sort of thing has spread wider too, in Protestantism. But our subject now is what is said about Philadelphia. The Lord says, "And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia write: These things saith the holy, the true; he that has the key of David, he who opens and no one shall shut, and shuts and no one shall open: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name". Then He goes on to say, "I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet". That is remarkable, that is, before the assembly's feet. "And shall know that I

have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". Well, these are the things we are to take on and understand and develop in ourselves. And then what the overcomer comes into-for there must be overcomers in Philadelphia or there will be no ministry, no hearing of the word, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". This surely would all allude in the main to ministry that has come out particularly in the past thirty to forty years. I do not say the past one hundred years, but more recently, what has come out in the ministry bearing on the service of God, such as the matter of the temple and the assembly itself; the assembly being "the temple of my God". Then too the relation of Christ to God: "My Father and your Father ... my God and your God". I believe the Lord has honoured all that ministry and the results of it, and He is telling us that as overcoming He will write on us these wonderful things.

A.A.T. What does that mean, to write on us?

J.T. It shows that we are writing material; we are capable of being written upon. The apostle Paul alludes to the Corinthians as being his epistle, "Known and read of all men", "written", he says, by "the Spirit of the living God". 2 Corinthians 3 helps as to this matter of writing: "Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or do we need, as some, commendatory letters to you, or commendatory from you? Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men, being manifested to be Christ's

epistle ministered by us, written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God; not on stone tables, but on fleshy tables of the heart" (verses 1 - 3). I think we get there clearly the clue to the matter of writing material and how the writing proceeds. Paul is alluding to the place the saints had with him, "written in our hearts". But then, they were written on too; they were manifestly "Christ's epistle ... written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God; not on stone tables, but on fleshy tables of the heart". That is Christ's writing.

R.W.S. Is this the crowning promise of all the promises to the seven churches?

J.T. It would seem to be. What a place these thoughts should have with us; how they should become indelibly stamped on us! We are known to be thus. So that Matthew helps us when he says, "two of you"; that is, persons of that kind.

Ques. Would you connect what comes out in verse 12 in regard of Christ, with what God says at the close of the previous dispensation in Malachi 3:16? "Then they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another; and Jehovah observed it, and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared Jehovah, and that thought upon his name". Is there a connection, do you think?

J.T. The book of remembrance was written, just so, and He speaks of them as "mine". "They shall be unto me a peculiar treasure, saith Jehovah of hosts, in the day that I prepare" (verse 17).

Ques. What would be the thought of "my new name"?

J.T. I think if we understand John 20 we shall understand what the Lord is speaking of here. How intimately He links the message through Mary with Himself: "my brethren", "my Father" and "my God"; and then the addition of "your"-"my Father and your Father ... my God and your God".

I think John 20 really helps us to understand what is promised here to the overcomer. What we have had all these years, to which we have been alluding is, I believe, bound up with John's ministry, especially in chapter 20, the message through Mary.

C.DeB. "Thou hast a little power". How would that be manifested?

J.T. Maybe what we have here today. These meetings are growing in importance and likability. The brethren seem to like them, and the Lord likes them; I believe He sees that there is a little power. They are growing in value. They began in the early movement of perhaps one hundred and twenty years ago, but they have grown. These so-called 'readings' have grown in importance and likability and the Lord has definitely taken them on.

A.A.T. Is it not remarkable that this type of meeting is found only among the brethren with whom we walk? They are the only ones who hold readings like this.

J.T. Others could hardly do it. That in itself shows that they have drifted away from the dispensation because it is bound up with this sort of thing. We have often alluded to Acts 20, the love chapter; in the middle of it Eutychus is raised up by love; he is called a "boy", and is "brought away", representing the youthful work of the Spirit that is brought away, by which the brethren are comforted. But after Eutychus' recovery there was a conversation until daybreak. It is conversation. It is not like the clerical system, depending on discourses, but it is reading and conversational intercourse so that personality comes into view and we speak to each other on personal lines. They carried on this sort of thing until the break of day. And so Paul went away and the brethren were comforted.

S.R.McC. "The temple of my God" becomes

prominent in Philadelphia. Would that link on with meetings such as these?

J.T. I believe John 20 is a sort of basic chapter as to all that has come out in these years, so that the Spirit of God has effected better conditions in the service of God, for we know what to do; we know the conditions in which the glory shines; we may say, "from glory to glory".

F.C. Do you think the words, "He shall go no more at all out" would refer to the position we have taken up, that it is never to be given up to the end; God helping us to maintain it?

J.T. Yes, I would connect it with what is said in chapter 21, which is really an eternal thought. "Go no more ... out". There is a great deal of going out now! If anything is to be effected ministerially we have to go out and travel, and suffer in travelling, too. The devil has been allowed to succeed in closing our way to some extent, but the going out implies that the Lord is taking account of suffering more or less; "journeyings often", as Paul said. Now I would take this word, "Go no more ... out", and link it up with eternal conditions. Chapter 21:3 - 7 says, "And God himself shall be with them, their God. And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away. And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he says to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And he said to me, It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to him that thirsts of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son". I would link on that word in chapter 3 with this as a part of our eternal position, that we go no more out.

C.H.H. That would be confirmed by the use of

the term, "new Jerusalem", which occurs in those two places only. It is a question of eternal conditions.

T.L.S. Is it right to think of both David and Solomon in the matter of Philadelphia? I was thinking of the expansion of what is proposed to the overcomer, how he receives an expansion in the way of service to God.

J.T. Quite so; Solomon, of course, is a counterpart of David. David represents refinement and excellency in this book and Solomon is just an expansion of David, so you might connect the idea of pillar with Solomon, and all that enters into the new Jerusalem in the way of glory; it is what the queen of Sheba saw, the ascent by which he went up into the house of the Lord. I think that would be quite admissible. Solomon is there because it is a question of David expanding, Christ at the present time in that light in the grandeur of the system of new creation.

THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (4)

Revelation 19:6 - 9; Revelation 21:1 - 3

J.T. It is thought that we should finish today with these closing chapters, 19, 21 and 22, so as to see the assembly as it shall be. These passages that we have read belong to "the things that are about to be after" what we have been considering, the third phase of the book as the Lord divided it in chapter 1: 19

"What thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these". The assembly is, of course, the same, whether in the early or the closing chapters of the book, only that it is the heavenly side in these latter chapters. The first passage read involves more the moral side of the assembly; it records what has been, that is, the righteousnesses of the saints. These are in mind as seen here: the clothing in which the Lamb's wife is arrayed. But in order to have a clear view we should perhaps look a little at the earlier part of the chapter which tells of the judgment of the corrupted professing system. We noted earlier that, in chapter 2, "the woman Jezebel" may be rendered, 'the wife Jezebel', involving a household situation; whereas the view we get of her in the end of the book, in chapters 17, 18 and the early verses of 19, involves more what is political, the idea of her relation with the responsible element. It is said in chapter 16: "And the great city was divided into three parts; and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon was remembered before God to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath".

Then chapter 17 says, "And one of the seven angels, which had the seven bowls, came and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the

sentence of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication; and they that dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication". So we have there the description of her in political relations. The passage goes on, "And he carried me away in spirit to a desert; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and had ornaments of gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication; and upon her forehead a name written, Mystery, great Babylon, the mother of the harlots, and of the abominations of the earth. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I wondered, seeing her, with great wonder. And the angel said to me, Why hast thou wondered? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast which carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present. Here is the mind that has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, whereon the woman sits. And there are seven kings five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes he must remain only a little while. And the beast that was and is not, he also is an eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into destruction. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have not yet received a kingdom, but receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their power and authority to the beast".

Then verses 15 to 18 say, "And he says to me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire; for God has given to their hearts to do his mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the words of God shall be fulfilled. And the woman which thou sawest is the great city, which has kingship over the kings of the earth". Then chapter 18 is her destruction and the beginning of chapter 19 is the celebration of the event "After these things I heard as a loud voice of a great multitude in the heaven, saying, Hallelujah: the salvation and the glory and the power of our God for true and righteous are his judgments; for he has judged the great harlot which corrupted the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the blood of his bondmen at her hand. And a second time they said, Hallelujah. And her smoke goes up to the ages of ages. And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and did homage to God who sits upon the throne, saying, Amen, Hallelujah. And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his bondmen, and ye that fear him, small and great". I thought we should have these facts before us, dear brethren, in considering the assembly in its heavenly relations, and how the wisdom of God and the righteousness of God require that the false assembly or church should be destroyed, and destroyed in such a way that the bearing of her destruction is eternal; it goes on for ever and ever.

C.H.H. Is it instructive that the first exposure of Babylon and the announcement of its fall occurs in chapter 14 immediately after the securing of the one hundred and forty-four thousand?

J.T. Just so, that is important too.

They would

represent a company on earth in the millennium, the Jewish position indeed; so that the bearing of her destruction is seen in relation to them too. We ought to become accustomed to the divine system. "God has judged your judgment upon her", we are told in chapter 18, it is the judgment of the brethren. We ought to have a right estimate of that system, its antiquity and its character and relations down the ages, and how heaven has taken account of it as its sins are mounting up to heaven.

Rem. In view of the evidence of this great system in this city where we are meeting, we are clear in our minds as to God's judgment and our judgment upon it. We see what God's thought of it all is and we are restful and content that it will all be brought down in time.

J.T. The grandeur of it comes out in detail, and the wealth of it, and then the description of its destruction. Chapter 17 brings out its political setting, how it has grasped after a universal status and yet in spite of itself it has to be local. It cannot afford to spread itself out: as to its essential existence it has to be local. So it is shrouded with darkness to conceal the wickedness.

R.W.S. Does Babylon primarily allude to a certain system, or to the christian profession?

J.T. Well, it says "the mother", she is "the mother of the harlots". I think it would mean that the whole christian profession as corrupted is in mind, and the whole system is corrupted now.

R.W.S. Is it just the Romish system or would it embrace Protestantism, as we had yesterday in Sardis?

J.T. I would think that the expression, "the mother of the harlots, and of the abominations of the earth", includes the whole profession as corrupted. What we had as to the dispensation of the Spirit bears on all that, that we must refuse all that belongs to

this system and maintain what belongs to the realm of the Spirit. If the Spirit's dispensation is to be maintained, that system has to be judged, and we have to learn to regard it as an eternal judgment: not simply in time, but an eternal matter because it says that "her smoke goes up to the ages of ages", as if God is telling us how to judge sin and how He judges sin; how the lake of fire stands in relation to His judgment. That is, the judgment of God about certain persons and things is eternal. There are judgments that are local in time and place, but there are also judgments that are eternal.

H.H. Babylon in Nebuchadnezzar's day was imperial, and yet in the ways of God it was allowed to capture Judah. Would you say a word as to the military side and the capturing of the people of God?

J.T. Well, that is what happened historically. Babylon captured what God had as it were publicly, so that the movement as Christ came into the world was to deliver from that. What we are dealing with now is future yet, but the deliverance from it in a moral sense is in christianity.

H.H. "Come out of her, my people" would apply to the present time.

J.T. It would. Joshua would have that in mind too; the garment taken by Achan was Babylonish, it refers to christendom in antitype.

C.H.H. Would it have its root in Nimrod in Genesis 10?

J.T. Quite so. He, however, was from Ham. The beginning of his kingdom was Babel, which is confusion; that is the beginning of Babylon and it has come down to us in the moral sense in christendom. The world has taken that form, the Babylonish garment alludes to it, and the wickedness of anyone wishing to have it. These chapters refer to what is yet future in her history-Babylon in its coming, future character again taking on the political.

A.A.T. To whom do the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures refer? They seem to be in accord with God.

J.T. Well, they come down through the course of time. They are all a part of what we are saying. They are not simply christianity, the twenty-four elders include a previous dispensation. They refer to eldership, that is, experience with God. God's mind was understood, for instance, by Abraham of whom God said, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him ... to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him". That is the principle of the twenty-four. As to actual number, they refer to the regularity of David's kingdom in view of Solomon, and they culminate here. They run through these chapters as sympathetic with God in His government of the world from the very beginning; because the twenty-four extend back to the beginning of God's government and come down to christianity and to this position. So God has had sympathy from the beginning. There have been experienced persons with Him throughout and they celebrate here. It says in verse 4, "And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and did homage to God who sits upon the throne". The throne would refer to God's government: the thing itself is essentially in this matter. The bearing of it runs on; it is eternal. We are now coming to have the mind of God in judgment, the eternal bearing of His judgment.

A.B. Is there any import in the order here in relation to the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures? In the early chapters, from chapter 4 onward, the living creatures take the precedence, but here it is taken by the twenty-four elders.

J.T. I suppose the living creatures represent God's testimony in the creation, what He has in the creation.

The twenty-four elders refer to what He has in experience, companionship with Himself; so the precedence of the living creatures would mean that they are properly subordinate to the elders but the elders wait until they make a move. In chapter 4 it says, "And the four living creatures, each one of them having respectively six wings; round and within they are full of eyes; and they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come. And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanksgiving to him that sits upon the throne, who lives to the ages of ages, the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages; and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created". That is, the elders have precedence because they have intelligence as being with God and coming down, as it were, through David; representing the best of the old dispensation. They include this dispensation too. So that when the living creatures give glory and thanksgiving, it is said the twenty-four elders shall fall before Him. They act consequent upon the action of the living creatures, as if to give fulness to what they do. There is, therefore, in the ways of God the principle of grade throughout, and the twenty-four elders represent the most exalted grade in the sense of intelligence in the government of God.

C.H.H. That would be marked by the way they speak with feeling: "O our Lord and our God".

H.H. It says, "In the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures", Revelation 4:6. That is not said of the elders, is it?

J.T. No; the elders are seen in verse 4. First it

speaks of the One who is on the throne and then that around the throne there are "twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones twenty-four elders sitting, clothed with white garments; and on their heads golden crowns", meaning that they are intelligent in their position in the government of God. Then in verse 6, "And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind". So that they are in a sort of subordinate position, whereas the twenty-four elders are supreme in relation to God, the Supreme. So we have in the general ordering, culminating here in their presence in this celebration, supreme intelligence in relation to God in His government, and then the living creatures representing the energy of life that is in God's creation.

R.H. Have you in mind that generally the more spiritual part of the service of God should be taken on by those with experience?

J.T. That seems to be the position in the introduction here in this remarkable way in chapter 4. The matter comes down through David, because the reference really is to David's regime in the great stress on the number twenty-four and the different offices and functions mentioned. It would seem as if David's part in this last book of the Bible, as we call it, is to stress excellence and grade. The word 'grade' is a good one, I think, in the government and ways of God, and the elders represent the highest grade. The book of Psalms should be connected with the Pentateuch, which is the historical working out of the creation, and of the position of Israel in the government of God. The nations were all arranged in relation to Israel; they were bound to stand in relation to Israel; and David comes in in that setting in the book of Psalms, which expresses the highest order of intelligence and feeling and spirituality in the Old Testament. The highest order of intelligence in all the dispensations is represented there, of course involving experience

with God, because the Psalms are expressions of experience with God. Hence I would think that David's part in this book is to convey supreme excellence and special experience with God; as though the wealth that He has coming down with Him through the ages is now enthroned and crowned in relation to Him-because it is God's throne; that is in mind in chapter 4, and it is God that is celebrated here. Then again we have in verse 6 of the passage we read, "I heard as a voice ... saying, Hallelujah"; so that God is in view here and then the Lamb.

R.H. Would you say a word as to the thought of worshipping God? I feel very defective in the matter. We seem to have much more liberty in relation to the Father.

J.T. Well, clearly the idea of God is stressed in this book, especially here; and so it is said in the last chapter, "And I, John, was he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to do homage before the feet of the angel who shewed me these things. And he says to me, See thou do it not. I am thy fellow-bondman, and the fellow-bondman of thy brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Do homage to God", Revelation 22:8, 9. That is a leading thought and it must point to the great ultimate in the ways of God, that God may be all in all. God is the great end, and ought to be the great end in our services now.

R.H. Does it go beyond what is historical? In chapter 19 the phrase "Our God" is in relation to the judgment, is it not? Have you in mind that chapter 22 would go further?

J.T. Well, I think the whole book places God before us, that is, God in His essential being, as He "who is". God in His essential being is in the mind of the Spirit throughout the whole book. We have the historical side in chapter 4 where, you will notice,

the living creatures say, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come". "Who was", that is historical, and then "Who is"; that is, the historical is put before the essential thought, whereas in chapter 1: 8 the order is reversed. There it says, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty". That is the Spirit's way, you might say, of placing the Deity in this book. He is first seen, in chapter 1, in what He is essentially "Who is". But the living creatures, who have come into things in creation, recognise the historical God first; that is, the Creator God is historical. He is known historically, and as I understand it, they celebrate Him in this way in chapter 4. They say, "Who was, and who is, and who is to come". "Who was" is the historical God; that is a somewhat lower thought of course, but it has the first place there because the God of history is much better known than the God of eternity, of whom it is said: "From eternity to eternity thou art God". That is, He is better known in what He is and where He is operating in the dip down into time than in eternity. Still, "He is", and when we come to Moses we have that abstract idea. We have it for the first time in Exodus 15 where "Jah" is used, the title, according to those who should know, that refers to God in the abstract, less known obviously than the historical God. Still, the more spiritual we are the more we shall value God in the abstract.

H.H. In this connection there are three designations of God that come into one's mind: "The Alpha and the Omega", "The beginning and the end", and "The first and the last". They are very striking expressions, and I thought that perhaps they are shared by more than one divine Person. Is there not a very plain relation or connection between God and the Lord Jesus as presented in the Revelation?

J.T. Quite. John has a way of linking them together without making it formal at times. Therefore "He who is" would at times refer to Jesus: the Deity is there.

Ques. Does all this enhance the thought we had in the first reading, of one, two, three? Does that come into this also-"Who is, and who was, and who is to come"?

J.T. Very good. As to these three distinctions that have been pointed out: the Alpha and the Omega would allude to the speaking, which came out, of course, in Christ, because He is the Word, the Logos; still, God is in it too, He speaks; He must have the first and the last word. Then "The first and the last" would mean the Deity personally; the Deity must be first and must be last.

H.H. In regard to "the beginning and the end" it is said in Genesis 1, "In the beginning", and in 1 Corinthians 15, "That God may be all in all". That is the end, is it not?

J.T. Just so. "Then cometh the end": God must be that end, and He must be the beginning too,

R.H. When addressing God in this setting, have you in mind the three Persons?

J.T. I would never think of addressing the three Persons at one time.

R.H. Is that not in mind in the exhortation, "Do homage to God"? Would that not involve the three Persons of the Deity?

J.T. Well, it is always in the singular when you have to do with God. When the three Persons are seen they are viewed as in the economy, not involving absolute equality. Baptism is "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". The Father must be first, before the other two Persons in what we commonly call the economy: "To us there is one God, the Father, ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ". That is the mediatorial position. When we

have to speak to divine Persons it is all on the mediatorial ground, and that implies that They are not seen as equal. We know They are equal; John's gospel, which stresses the idea of the mediatorial economy, makes it plain that the Son is equal with the Father and that we must honour the Son as we honour the Father; but nevertheless, in addressing the Deity, that is the Persons, it is as turning to one of Them and addressing Him by the title by which He is set before us in the economy. I doubt whether the Spirit contemplates that as creatures we are equal to addressing the three Persons at one time, because it says that "To us there is one God, the Father". So that if you wish to speak to the Father, you address God as such; if you wish to speak to the Son, you speak to Him as such; or you have the Spirit in mind as such. The economy is intended for us, to make God available to us; so that we shall be intelligent in what we are saying and doing.

C.H.H. Would the highest form of worship include two Persons? "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father", Ephesians 2:18.

J.T. That is the economy; but the Father is the end; either the Father or God: but God is the great ultimate in all that we do or say.

S.J.H. Would that be higher than Revelation 5, where it says they did homage "To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb"?

J.T. Well, of course that would be to One at a time. You speak to One at a time. Therefore our hymns are somewhat difficult when they are mixed as to that.

C.H.H. "Endless praise and adoration, To the Father and the Son"-that would hardly be in order, would it?

J.T. Hardly. It has become a doxology through usage of the brethren. It was never intended to be

sung to close the meeting when the service of God is before us; we are to go out on the highest level. But the dear brethren will understand that we are on a subject that is the supreme of all subjects, and we cannot hope to deal with it now beyond what we have said. We cannot afford to spend the whole hour on it, although it is worthy of it. But to come to the position of the assembly as we are considering it in this reading: this passage in chapter 19 is where we find it properly introduced again after chapter 3. Before it is introduced we have the other person, the wicked wife, not only set aside but destroyed. The true wife is not even introduced until the false one is destroyed, and that in an eternal sense; understood to be destroyed eternally. I think it is intended, brethren, that we should know that. The twenty-four elders would know it.

W.W.M. Would it be right to apply this judgment to any imitation of what is real, so that we might be kept constantly in self-judgment lest we become religious without vitality?

J.T. Very good; religious without vitality, that is Sardis. She had a name to live and was dead. But now we are in the presence of the wife, the Lamb's wife. She is introduced here, but not before we have this wonderful celebration of the destruction of this thing that has been a blot really on the creation. The whole history of God's testimony has been, as it were, affected by this monstrosity, by its antiquity and its learning and its greatness according to man; all that the world is finds a place there in opposition to God, organised opposition to God, so that before He introduces the true wife He gives us the judgment of this system and the celebration of that judgment. There is nothing else that affords so much occasion of celebration as this happening: there is again the second time, "Hallelujah". It is an addition to what might be ordinarily, it is greater than anything that

has been, so that it is celebrated the second time with "Hallelujah".

W.F.K. Does the appellation, "the Lamb's wife", suggest that she has passed through reproach and suffering?

J.T. It would have in mind that she is in accord with the Lamb's position, which is that of suffering. She is not yet introduced as heavenly, although historically she has already been translated to heaven according to chapter 19, but in chapter 21 we have the heavenly side; she is coming down from heaven.

W.F.K. She has "made herself ready"; what would that imply?

J.T. She is fitted in that way. She knows what she is doing, she knows she has come to the time of this event; she knows how to provide her glorious attire and what it should be. It is not her own choosing, it is granted that she should wear this attire; she is allowed to wear it.

S.J.H. You were saying that Satan is cast out of heaven before the saints go up. Is this something similar, that the ground is absolutely clear of this false wife?

J.T. That is right. Chapter 12 shows that heaven is cleared through war; whatever adverse thing there is in heaven is dealt with. But the false wife is never seen as there, only there is an analogy. The angels of the devil were there, and although she was not there, she was affected by what was in heaven. The earth is cleared of her too before the Lamb's wife is brought in.

H.H. Would not true assembly features show themselves now as the false system is judged in our souls and in our associations?

J.T. That is the idea I am sure, as we were saying at the beginning. The parting of the ways means that everyone that names the name of the Lord withdraws from iniquity. We judge it and leave it. It is

no use saying we judge it unless we leave it; it is in the leaving of the thing that we show we judge it; and in doing that according to 2 Timothy we come back to the pristine position of the assembly where we can carry on the service of God.

H.H. One feels it is very important as we near the end that there should be no halting between two opinions.

J.T. That is right. If we are to have part in the divine service, as indeed we have through grace, it must not only be that God has judged our judgment upon the system that is, that we have judged it in our minds as a judge would do, but we must abandon the thing, leave it definitely. So that the exhortation to "Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins", really enters into our separation as in 2 Timothy.

Ques. Does that all link on with the nuptial garments here, the righteousnesses of the saints? The note says that they are not imputed righteousnesses here, they are actual.

J.T. Just so. "The righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit", Romans 8:4. It is not simply what our judgment is, but our walk and ways; that is all implied in the garments she is to wear. But the Lord would help us now to think of this great personage as realising in some little way by the Spirit that we are really part of it ourselves, and already, as it were, providing the material for the final nuptials. Psalm 45 says, "All glorious is the king's daughter within; her clothing is of wrought gold", according to the footnote, "within" is 'in the royal apartments'. That is the idea. It is what is being wrought out day by day and minute by minute, that is what is going to come out presently in display. She is allowed to use this material for the great display on the marriage occasion, the righteousnesses of the

saints, the fine linen, said to be bright and pure. "It was given to her that she should be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints".

R.W.S. It seems a greater thing to rejoice over the marriage of the Lamb than over a negative condition when the false wife is destroyed. There ought to be some reflection of that in us now as forming part of the rejoicing and exulting.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord has helped us to bring the thought of the marriage into our service. Psalm 45 has been much used in that connection, and the Spirit has helped us to prolong the time allowed for occupation with the marital relations between Christ and the assembly.

S.J.H. Why does it emphasise in verse 9 that these are the true words of God?

J.T. "He says to me, Write, Blessed are they who are called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb. And he says to me, These are the true words of God". It would look as if the idea of variety is stressed in relation to this marital matter. The direction to write is important. In some cases John is not to write, but he is to write here. It seems as if this paragraph should come into our assembly service, especially the marital side coming in after the actual partaking of the Lord's supper.

S.J.H. Do you think we should not hurry too much? Sometimes there has been haste in the desire to get on to the Father and to God. Should this matter be dwelt on more definitely and be quite clear in our minds before we move on in our service?

J.T. Quite so; and there is the word 'write', too. We have to compare it a little with other features in John's writings. We get the expressions, "I write unto you, little children", "I write unto you, young men", and "I write unto you, fathers": all that is our point of view, but here it is the direct word of

God to John. It says, "These are the true sayings of God", as if we ought to be very sure of what we are doing in celebrating in the Lord's supper the marital relations between Christ and the assembly.

C.H.H. In verse 9 where it says, "Blessed are they", would that refer to the bride herself, or to another company?

J.T. I would connect it myself with us, for present purposes, according to what we are trying to stress now. It is blessed to be in this part of the service and give the Lord His place in it, in the assembly, as to what she is to Him; not that we can exactly say she is the wife, because that word is used here designedly after the profession has been destroyed, after the one who had that place outwardly is destroyed. But inasmuch as the word "wife" is used, we are entitled to bring it spiritually into the service of God. I believe the statement that "These are the true words of God" ought to have a great place in that section of the service, that is, after we partake of the emblems and come under the Lord's influence and into the discernment of being in assembly. It is a question of what we are ourselves, the true words of God apply to us.

Ques. Would that be in contrast to what is false and not true?

J.T. It would indeed. The whole profession has much that is not true, but we want to be sure that what we celebrate in relation to the Lord's supper is a true matter, and that there are no additions to it either in word or in form.

H.B. Is it something like what Paul says, "I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you"?

J.T. That is good and confirms what we are saying. The apostle was confirming that it was a real thing. He did not simply carry down the thought of the Supper from the twelve, but he heard it from the

Lord Himself directly; it was directly received from the Lord, so that it is Paul's matter.

S.J.H. We have been anxious that the Father should have His place in the service; but do you think we need to be quite sure of this marital matter being reached before we move on?

J.T. I have no doubt that the Spirit of God had in mind the controversy there would be over the Lord's supper, and the terrible thing that Rome would make out of it; making it idolatrous as to the bread. Hence this phrase, that "these are the true words of God". These words are written, so that there is no use in going back to church history; because while the early fathers will give the Romish advocates enough to support their contentions, these true words of God that have come to us in the epistle to the Corinthians are what Paul received directly from the Lord. It is not simply what he heard from the twelve, but what he received directly from the Lord.

A.B. Yesterday you made reference to Philadelphia in relation to the overcomer and the writing on him. Ought we to have in mind that this writing is personified, these true words of God? Is that what you have in mind?

J.T. Quite so; and how the letter of commendation comes into the Lord's supper, into the new covenant. We had it yesterday and it comes home with force to one now as to the words of the apostle, "I received from the Lord". Then the writing in the second epistle, how he speaks of his affection for the Corinthians, bringing them forward because of his love for them. Wherever he was he spoke of them. And then the Spirit of the living God had written on them; they were declared to be the epistle of Christ, making the Lord's supper so real in word and letter.

A.A.T. But in connection with Paul's visit to Corinth, he delivered the truth of the Supper to them

before he wrote it down: "That which also I delivered to you", he says.

J.T. Well, Luther wrote down about it too. That is what one feels just now as to this terrible thing we are dealing with, that is judged; how even Luther was detained, really held in darkness, on this point of the bread. "This is my body": he wrote that down on the table-cloth, and he never got rid of that error; whereas the Spirit of God would make us rid of all these darkening things that would come down to us. The bride never ceases to be a bride, and there is no such thing as transition or transubstantiation either. It is a memorial in a spiritual sense, and I only refer to that to show the importance of the true words of God as applying to the marital relations between Christ and the assembly.

R.H. Would that link on with Jethro bringing Moses' wife to him in the wilderness and his kissing his father-in-law, the legality of the relation established?

J.T. Very good. In the words 'wife' and 'father-in-law' the idea would be that the thing is confirmed legally, that she is the real wife; and that comes out here. The real wife is seen in those who remember the Lord, who keep Him in their hearts. She does not forget Him, and her Husband is known in the gates. So that the whole thing, that which is called the sacrament, is stripped of all additions, inclusive of what Rome has added. We have the simple thing, the original thing, as in 1 Corinthians 11:23, "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you this do in remembrance of me".

S.R.McC. So that the real issue is Naboth's vineyard. Jezebel wrote in regard to that.

J.T. That comes into it. Jezebel dealt with that in her wicked ways. Naboth died on account of the

inheritance; and what we are speaking of is really the inheritance because it is the truth of the Lord's supper as it has come down by the Spirit of God; not by the early fathers, nor by church history, but through the word of God, using actual Scripture.

T.S. So in the challenge of the daughters of Jerusalem to the bride in Canticles, when they say, "What is thy beloved more than another beloved ... ?", she is able to speak in a living way, saying, "My beloved is white and ruddy", and so on with the description of Him.

J.T. She could give a true account of Him; she could tell what He looked like. That enters into what we are saying, that we have the real thing. The word 'memorial' enters into all that.

R.W.S. So what the Father gets and what God gets really become contingent upon the recovery of the Lord's supper?

J.T. We get on to a right basis; we are set up in transparency and the true words of God are fundamental for us. Having dwelt so long on this passage there is little time to touch on the beginning of chapter 21, where we have the assembly in relation to new creation. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more". This is the basis for what he is now going to say: "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God". Now we have come on to what we might call the divine service, making application to current practice amongst the brethren. We come on to God and the assembly, that holy city, new Jerusalem, comes down out of heaven from God. That is, she is

already what these words express, making the application to what is current amongst us. This passage links on with chapter 19. It is the wife there, but here it is the bride coming down from God out of heaven and adorned for her husband. She is ready for the great occasion. But then immediately after we have the tabernacle of God; God has a place and He is known there.

C.H.H. Would this furnish material for the worship of God, entering into the service?

J.T. Yes, it links on with what we have been saying. We have the wife, the marital side, as we partake of the emblems, and then we are ready for the tabernacle. It is the same assembly. We may speak of the brethren of the Lord, His brethren, but presently the Spirit of God is apprehended in another way. He is the Spirit of God, but He is also the Spirit of adoption, becoming in us the power of sonship, the power of it in speaking to God; and the fact that the tabernacle of God is with men fits in now. God is with us in that position in the tabernacle.

W.F.K. Is the tabernacle system carried right through to this?

J.T. Yes, I think that is the thought. It is an eternal thought. Our services are rightly regarded as leading into eternity.

F.K.C. Is that what is in mind in the end of Ephesians 3"To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen"?

J.T. That is right; that is what I understand. We have reached that point, and then the bearing is eternity. It is the assembly in Christ Jesus. In Christ involves the power, it is in that power. The "in" is suggestive of the power of Christ there, maintaining the position, so that God's glory is there throughout all generations of the age of ages. It is

not from age to age, it is one great thought that leads into the eternal state of things.

W.F.K. She is no longer the Lamb's wife; she is the holy city.

J.T. You get the wife again in verse 9, but it refers to millennial conditions. Here you do not get it. It is the eternal state of things that is in mind here.

H.H. Why have you the holy city, new Jerusalem, brought in in verse 2? What is the relation of that to what you have been saying?

J.T. The word 'city' is the system of things, involving still the mediatorial state of things, but with a capital, the holy city. It is suggestive of being the chief thought in the system. But then the question arises whether the emphasis is on the word 'holy' as fitting us for our entrance into eternal relations. "Be ye holy, for I am holy", holiness must be there.

H.H. How far would you carry the word 'city' in relation to eternity?

J.T. I do not know that you can go very far, because it is changed here immediately to tabernacle. It is stressed in verse 10 as the capital of the millennial day but the character seems to be dropped here.

H.H. It is an identification, more or less?

J.T. Yes. The city does not stress the thought of love so much as the thought of administration; but a tabernacle is where God is near to us and we to Him.

H.H. Would you carry the thought of administration into eternity?

J.T. I do not know. There must be something. The Son Himself is to be subject there. In the universe of God there must be law, governing principles; I would say that love involves that state of things.

C.H.H. In the light of what we have here, would you be free with a hymn such as No. 97 (Hymns and Spiritual Songs, 1932), 'At length the state eternal', in the worship at the end of our meeting?

J.T. Yes, quite so. We have not very many such. I think that as we count our hymns we shall see that we have not many that carry us through very far. J.N.D. was greatly exercised because there were so few hymns to God as the Father.

J.W. Does this scripture imply that we never lose the thought of the bride or wife in the eternal state?

J.T. I think so. It is a primary thought with God, and primary thoughts go through. They come into time and are worked out in time, but they go through.

R.W.S. In this eternal setting allusion is made to tears and death and sorrow. Does that have a bearing on our service in the assembly now?

J.T. Well, that is for ourselves. In these scriptures the negatives are especially helpful. We often quote that very passage for comfort. Verse 3 says, "And I heard a loud voice out of the heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God". It is a voice you will notice. We can work all that out in the truth of the epistles, especially in Ephesians, as to how we arrive at God in our service.

Rem. There seems to be a remarkable coalescing here with the thought you were suggesting in chapter 19: "And he says to me, These are the true words of God". Here we have at the end of verse s, "Write, for these words are true and faithful". It is preceded by, "Behold, I make all things new".

J.T. That is very interesting; so we are on sure footing right through.

H.H. In regard to J.N.D.'s hymns, it has been said that he put into them what apparently the brethren were not ready for at that time; most of these hymns to the Father were written when he was very near the end.

J.H. In regard to the expression that "the former

things have passed away", would it be permissible at this point of the service to sing, 'O bright and blessed scenes, Where sin can never come', or would the thought of sin be an intrusion?

J.T. Of course it is only spoken of negatively; that is, it involves the positive. There is no sin there, which is a comforting thing. In fact it almost fits with certain things that are said here: "He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes"; well, that suggests that there has been sin which caused the tears. "And death shall not exist any more", that is another negative, but it is only a negative to assert a positive. "For the former things have passed away". I think that hymn is quite in order; it is precious anyway, as confirming us, because we do not forget that we are still in the body. We are in the body in all our service, we can never assume that we are out of it. Paul says he did not know whether he was in the body or out of it, but we can never say we are out of the body.

J.L.P. Hymn 97 (Hymns and Spiritual Songs, 1932) brings in the same thought: 'No breath of sin to wither'.

C.H.H. Would you say these negatives that imply a positive enhance the service?

J.T. Yes; the whole passage is of that character. God says, "He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son. But to the fearful and unbelieving, and sinners, and those who make themselves abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone; which is the second death". So that it seems that these verses are for us at the present time as confirmatory, and comforting us in a negative way.

Ques. Would it be right to say that God has

reached His purpose that He had in mind at the beginning, "Let us make man in our image"?

J.T. Yes. God Himself is here, He is with men "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God. And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, nor grief, nor cry, nor distress shall exist any more, for the former things have passed away". The whole passage is both comforting and confirmatory, although largely negative.

R.W.S. And if we scrutinise the hymns too much, and publicly criticise the hymn a brother gives out, we may be put under bondage and really hinder the service of God.

J.T. Yes. So what comes in between chapter 19 and this passage involves the complete clearance of the universe from sin. The whole matter of sin is dealt with and settled in the lake of fire. The very thought of the lake of fire is admitted: they shall have their part in the lake which burns. It is the eternal judgment of sin which enters into this matter, the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is "the second death". That hymn is quite in keeping with the language we use in the divine service, because we are still here and we value the thought of eternal judgment, that is, the final settlement of things which are causing so many tears and so much sorrow.

S.J.H. In Isaiah 65:17 it says, "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind"; but in the last chapter (verse 24), it says, "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence unto all flesh". That is in connection with verse 22 which says, "For as the

new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before me ...".

J.T. Isaiah gives the application of the new heavens and the new earth to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is made a joy, showing that at the present time the things that are spoken of here are already realisable by the Spirit. We are able to speak of them as confirmatory of the situation. How sure it all is! But what comes in here in chapter 20 should be looked into to get what good we might from the introduction of the lake of fire, and of all that is said about it as basic now down here. It is basic as to the service of God that we are conscious by the Spirit that there is a final solution to all wickedness and evil. It is not simply that it is destroyed, but it is there as a testimony eternally as to what God thinks of sin, and how it is dealt with. It is limited, but it is there. There is no suggestion of the lake of fire ever terminating; it is known to be there.

S.J.H. Why should they go and look upon it?

J.T. That is the prophetic way of speaking. The idea of the new heavens and the new earth is brought down to practicableness in the millennium. Jerusalem is made a joy, that is by the Spirit, and even in christianity it comes to us in the joy we have in the assembly. But all is in view of the eternal state of things when matters are settled finally.

C.H.H. Would there be a present connection in Hebrews where it is said that we have come "to the city of the living God"?

J.T. That present thought applies to all these things: we have come to them really; and that only brings in again the importance of maintaining the liberty of the Spirit by which we realise these things.

Ques. "The tabernacle of God is with men": would that include God's tabernacle with Israel as well as with the church?

J.T. The allusion is to that. God's primary

thought is the tabernacle, not the temple. The temple came in with David and Solomon as a matter of greatness and glory, but the primary thought was that God would be near His people and He would have them near Him. So in Exodus 24 He brought them up to the height, and they ate and drank before Him and He did not lay His hand on them, as if to say, You can be free and happy with Me, you have nothing to fear. That comes in here.

T.S. We spoke previously about joy and exulting; I was wondering whether what God does here would indicate something of the peculiar joy He would have in all this?

J.T. That is what these words imply; He is having more out of it than we are. In having His tabernacle with men His thought was to have a people near unto Him. That is in His mind now. He has them near Him eternally in the tabernacle. The tabernacle is the saints, the assembly, that in which God will dwell eternally.

C.H.H. Would the tabernacle exclude all else but the body of Christ?

J.T. I would think so: "the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". All the operations are carried on there in the eternal state of things. "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages".

C.H.H. The earthly bride would have no part in that?

J.T. I think not. I do not know if she will continue really. Whether she will continue or whether she will merge is a matter to be understood.

R.H. Do we ever touch in our service a point that is beyond the mediatorial idea, or is it always through the Lord?

J.T. I do not think we could be with God at all except on a mediatorial basis.

C.H.H. Eternally?

J.T. Yes.

THE ASSEMBLY AS SEEN IN THE REVELATION (5)

Revelation 21:9 - 27; Revelation 22:1 - 5, 16, 17

J.T. We saw in our last reading that verses 6 to 9 of chapter 19 again introduce the assembly as leading us to the final state of things, and that in the subsequent part of the book we have a return to the millennial state, with administration stamped on the instruction in the record. We finished with the thought of the service of God, and the application of chapter 19 as read and chapter 21 as read to that service. That is, we linked it on with these scriptures in line with what we have observed as the Spirit's teaching in recent times, namely that the service leads us on to the eternal state of things, ending with the tabernacle. The city is alluded to, but the finish is the tabernacle, as we should expect; that is, that God would come in finality to love conditions between Himself and His people. There will be no more sea; both nearness and movability are involved. Administration is not stressed, though the Spirit as returning to millennial conditions in verse 9 of chapter 21 has administration in mind; and we come back through that way, in chapter 22: 16, to the assemblies as we have them in the early part of the book. In that passage the Lord does not return to millennial conditions, but to present current conditions. He says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come". So that we finish, as we may say, with the Lord's relations with us as we are now, seen in this message to us and the response that He looks for in us: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come".

Ques. Do I understand that the millennial period runs collaterally with the eternal state?

J.T. I think that, as applied to the assembly, the eternal state, as we call it, begins as she is translated to heaven, and therefore runs on collaterally with the millennium on the earth. But the millennial conditions are not properly eternal, they are in relation to the earth. There are nations existing, and Israel existing as a nation in the great period of administration, the great period of rule and blessing on the earth; as if God would show what He can do with man in the flesh, Satan being limited or in prison, so that there is no incentive to sin; although sin is supposed to exist and will be dealt with. Chapter 20 deals with that. So that the eternal state of things begins for us as we are translated, and that is contemplated in chapter 19.

H.H. Would there also be the work of the Spirit on the line of new creation now?

J.T. Quite so, it is going on now, as Paul says, "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:17. That is the principle of our dispensation, at least one of the principles. It is in view of eternity, in view of eternal conditions which may take place at any time. It is no earthly matter, it is a heavenly matter, a heavenly movement to take the saints up where eternal conditions will at once begin. Chapter 19 contemplates the first transaction and our being translated.

R.W.S. The great purge of chapter 19 immediately precedes the millennium.

J.T. You mean the Lord's incoming militarily in chapter 19? Quite so. He is seen coming out "And I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, called Faithful and True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness. And his eyes are a flame of fire". That chapter ends with the destruction of the beast and the false prophet. That clearly is pre-millennial, but introduces millennial conditions. Then chapter 20 gives us what takes

place as the angel descends from heaven and binds Satan, putting him into the abyss; then the thrones are set in verse 4 and the judgment given. This is inclusive of the raised and glorified saints; not only is the assembly there, but, as I understand it, all that are raised. Then after the millennium the rest of the dead are all raised and all have part in this scene in the end of chapter 20, running on to the final settlement of things in the lake of fire. The beginning of chapter 21 has application to the service of God as continuing on in principle from the Lord's supper to eternal conditions. Then in verse 9 we come back to millennial conditions. So that we know that the assembly's position now is to continue on in the service of God as inaugurated by the Spirit, leading on to eternal conditions. The millennial state of things begins at verse 9 and brings out what God can do with men as we are now in national conditions and the like, the heavenly city being in touch with the earth as ruling. So that eternal conditions are already there in the assembly, which is in touch with the millennial earth, although these conditions are not eternal. However, there will doubtless be a merging here, for flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore the millennium is limited, one might say, provisional, but will bring out what God can do with men in flesh and blood conditions.

C.H.H. Are millennial conditions anticipated in their moral features today in the church?

J.T. I think so; new creation, too, has already begun, so that we link on already with eternal conditions; with the so-called bridge of the millennium. The millennium is a matter treated by itself, a special matter with God in which He works out certain things in men and nations as they are in the flesh, with Satan bound.

H.H. There is a kingdom now on earth, the kingdom of God established in connection with the

Holy Spirit and the saints; a kingdom which cannot be moved.

J.T. Oh, yes. The word 'kingdom' is used variably. It is used to refer to Christ's own kingdom, which is not of this world; and then too as to the formal conditions here, the Spirit being present. Matthew speaks of it as the kingdom of heaven; Luke and John as the kingdom of God. It has a moral bearing; it is the power that is operative for deliverance out of the world, while the world remains as it is.

C.H.H. Would Paul's designation of "the kingdom of the Son of his love" have an eternal bearing?

J.T. I suppose it would. We are translated into that already, I suppose for educational purposes, because the Son of the Father's love contemplates the book of Proverbs. He is not yet on His own throne, but on the Father's throne, I would say for educational purposes; so that we are brought up in the rule of love itself in the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. It is a kingdom to make it effective, but love is the idea of it. There is rule there, but it is to work out in love at the present time.

-.E. Would you make a distinction between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the Father?

J.T. Well, there is a difference. There are varied references to the use of the word 'kingdom'; even we ourselves are said to be made a kingdom at the present time, that Christ has made us a kingdom (Revelation 1:6). The saints themselves are a kingdom; I think the principle of rule is set up amongst them by themselves. And so it says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. But it is on the principle of kingdom, that it is intolerant of wickedness.

H.H. You said some time ago that the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love in Colossians went over the Jordan; that it is not a wilderness condition.

J.T. I think that is right. It is a spiritual state of things in which the Son is known in that peculiar character as the Son of the Father's love; and you are delivered from the authority of darkness and translated into that; showing that it is at the present time in christianity because the book of Proverbs really is in mind. Solomon is the Son of the Father's love, and it is Solomon who can teach us, who can tell us of the Father and show us what the Father is to him. Hence in Matthew 11 the Lord says, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls". I believe that is where the matter lies: it is the Son in the presence of the Father, and an Object for us, an educational Object for us. What a state! "Ye shall find rest to your souls".

H.H. And that in a chapter in which everything is going the wrong way, John the baptist in prison and the Lord's works not accepted.

J.T. Yes; everything had gone wrong. It was a critical time in the Lord's path here and things were brought to an issue. It was a time of crisis when things had gone against Him outwardly. But it is the Son in the presence of the Father, and the Lord says, "I praise thee, Father ... that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes", Matthew 11:25. That is to say, it is Himself and the babes, and henceforward it is an educational time; so that it is a kingdom in a very attractive form. Now we have come to the millennial kingdom, and it is said, "And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from

God, having the glory of God. Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb". So that we have now come to the idea of the personnel, as we already had it in the beginning of the book. But here it is a question of the angels, creatures in the service in the divine system, and of the sons of Israel, and of the apostles of the Lamb; so that we have a great range of administrative personnel. We have come to that now, seen working out on this present earth; not in the new earth but in the present one. God is going to show what He can cause to happen on this earth.

H.B. Is the beginning of this scene in the upper room in Acts?

J.T. Well, Acts introduces christianity, and christianity is in mind. We have in the book of Acts the inauguration and the personnel of the present dispensation. It is not a question there of the millennial dispensation but of the christian dispensation, and so we have the personnel of that, the twelve apostles, and certain women, among them the mother of Jesus and His brethren. These are set there as if God is going to work out there a nucleus of what has developed during all these centuries, as God brings out the fulness of the nations. We are now in the time of the fulness of the nations coming in, and the personnel used is seen in the first of Acts.

C.H.H. Would this in any way refer to the masculine and feminine side in Genesis 1? He says, "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle,

and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth ... male and female created he them". Would millennial conditions on the earth show the male and female side?

J.T. Quite so; intelligence comes into that as to the male and female side of things, because the government of God requires both. There is hardly enough time to go into that, but it is worked out concretely in the book of Esther, and of course in other books too. God is showing in the creation of man that He had in mind the two sexes, and that they were both necessary, not only in the populating of the earth but in the rule that God has in mind. "Let them have dominion", He says-a most interesting line of things. But I was thinking how the inauguration of the present dispensation in the book of Acts can be profitably compared with the inauguration of the millennial dispensation. They are two distinct things, and we have the latter here. The numeral 'twelve' is stamped on the whole construction, as if God were saying to us, I am going to show something special. It says in 1 Timothy 6:15, "Which in its own time the blessed and only Ruler shall shew". God is going to show what He can do. Man has failed utterly, and all kinds of government have failed, but God is going to show in the millennium what He can do and how He can govern.

W.W.M. The Lord says in Acts 1 that it was not for them to know the times and seasons. Would this be in His mind, too, do you think, this time of the millennium?

J.T. Yes. The apostles wanted to go too fast; they wanted to go on to the millennium, not to the eternal state. They had not that in their minds; they wanted to know about times and seasons. "Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons". That is remarkable. But He says,

as it were, The Spirit will come, and that is a greater thing for you; you wait for Him, and you will get everything. There is not a thing that He does not bring in. It is the day of the Spirit, and so John enlarges on that: "Ye have not need that any one should teach you", 1 John 2:27. That is our dispensation and there is no other like it.

But now we are dealing with the millennial dispensation, and the saints who form the present dispensation are already in heaven. They are not going through the millennium first; they go by themselves, so to speak. Others go too; but the assembly has already gone into heaven when we reach the millennium. The end of the matter is in the verses we had this morning, in the holy city coming down out of heaven. She is called "the holy city", but she is a bride adorned for her husband, that is, there is the idea of freshness. It is a question of what is for Christ. But now, beginning with verse 9, He is going to use her in the millennium.

H.H. Do the saints come out with Christ in chapter 19?

J.T. Quite so; they come out militarily. They come out on white horses in chapter 19, but they are seen on the thrones in chapter 20. They are in an effectual position on thrones. The whole vista is here to look into. We have already seen our destination in the beginning of chapter 21; but now the Spirit of God is turning round to the millennium, and He would say, This is the point now; it is the administrative period that the Lord has in His mind now, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

R.W.S. What would you say about the white horses and the thrones in connection with the assembly?

J.T. Well, the white horses of course are military. It says, "I saw the heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and one sitting on it, called Faithful and

True, and he judges and makes war in righteousness. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head many diadems, having a name written which no one knows but himself; and he is clothed with a garment dipped in blood; and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen", Revelation 19:11 - 14. That is a military position. Then in chapter 20 we have Satan bound, and the thrones: "And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them". That is one group. "And the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God": that is another company; they suffered and died after the assembly is taken up into heaven, but now they are seen on the thrones. Then it goes on "And those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years". That is the position we are looking at now; the assembly is included, but it is not exclusively the assembly; evidently there are others living and reigning with Christ.

-.E. Do you think the preaching of the glad tidings would be intended to bring men into millennial conditions before the day of display, as well as into assembly conditions?

J.T. You mean evangelical work, the angel flying in mid-heaven with the everlasting gospel? Of course the result of all that will be brought into the millennial state of things. So in chapter 7, the great crowd which no one can number is brought into it.

-.E. I mean now-not only for the future but for the present moment.

J.T. Of course we have part in the millennial state of things, but only on the principle of ruling in it. The heavenly side is just rule and influence; the

thousand years of blessing is for the people on the earth. The principle for us is to influence it.

T.L.S. Is the assembly seen in a militant attitude prior to the millennium being ushered in?

J.T. I think she is included there in chapter 19. It is not like chapter 12 where you have Michael fighting with the devil. This is the Lord Himself, and the saints coming out with Him in military array to destroy His enemies, inclusive of and led by the beast and the false prophet. This greatest array of power, as you might say, the Lord Himself destroys. And now we come to verse 9, to the assembly, the Lamb's wife, coming out in the sense of administration. She is seen as the great metropolis of the universe, really the heavenly metropolis of what is on earth; and she is going to influence all that happens.

J. W. It seems that the Lamb is prominent in this section, but not in the previous one, where the assembly is seen as a bride adorned for her husband. Here she is spoken of as the Lamb's wife; the Lamb is particularly mentioned.

J.T. The millennium, beginning with verse 9 of this section and running into the next chapter, has the Lamb in mind. The saints would, as it were, come back to earth again; not that the heavenly city is on the earth, but it is in relation to the earth, and the Lamb is in mind. It is to bring out how the assembly as having gone through experience is qualified to be associated with the Lord in His administrative services, and even in the military services.

S.J.H. Is this what the apostle was telling the Corinthians they were to be prepared for? They were not prepared for it in wifely feelings.

J.T. Paul said he had espoused them as a chaste virgin to Christ. He told them that they would have to judge angels, and all that is in view in what we have been speaking of. We are to be prepared for heavenly administration.

Ques. Is the thought of the Lamb based on the sufferings of Christ?

J.T. Yes; the Lamb usually carries that thought; and we have here the Lamb's wife: "Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". She is a bride adorned earlier in the chapter, but that is in view of eternal relations with Christ. Now it is "the bride, the Lamb's wife".

H.H. The millennium fills in one thousand years before you get what we had this morning as to the bride in relation to the eternal state. Is that right? I mean that after one thousand years of millennial administration she is just as fresh and beautiful as at the beginning.

J.T. Just so; only the question is whether the two do not synchronise, carrying the thought through from chapter 19. The Lamb's wife in chapter 19 is seen as married, united to Him officially. It is a scene of marriage. But then the Spirit takes us on to the end, to what is eternal, and that is involved in the beginning of chapter 21. Then He comes back again to the millennial scene, but the two may synchronise. However, we have to view the beginning of chapter 21 in relation to what is eternal: that is, what the assembly is to Christ, a bride adorned for her husband; while in this section it is the bride, the Lamb's wife. She has the glory of God, and "her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall". As you will see, she is already in relation to the millennium, but she is the Lamb's wife nevertheless.

R.W.S. How do you view those who are not today walking in the light of the assembly? How would they be able to function in the heavenly city in relation to the millennium on earth?

J.T. Well, it is a question of what God can do in a short time. He can raise us in the twinkling of an eye; so quickly can He change us, change myriads.

It is a question of what He can do. If they are really God's people, the subjects of the work of the Spirit at the present time, then we have to come back to what God can do, to God's sovereign power. How quickly He can do things to complete all the work of the present dispensation, and to make the assembly fit for its eternal purpose!

R.W.S. Will there be gradations in rule?

J.T. You mean in those who rule? We are not all alike.

R.W.S. I was thinking what a great advantage one who lived in the light of the assembly and understood something of assembly administration would have over one who was just caught up, having the Spirit but not knowing much about the assembly.

J.T. Suppose we put it this way: everything is going to be right; the great Operator is infinitely right. He has infinite power and can do things quickly if necessary. So we rest in that. We shall not get all our questions answered. If you were to ask me how babes are going to be saved, I do not know in detail, but I know they are going to be. That is, there is so much we just have to leave. Why can we not do that? If the Operator is infinite in wisdom and in power and in purpose, then everything must fit, and we can just say, That is all right; we do not need to be anxious about that. I do not mean that if it is in Scripture we should not look into it; but if God can raise a man out of the grave, or a million men, in the twinkling of an eye, the shortest conception of time, why can He not take a brother, or any number of brothers or sisters who are poorly educated, poorly trained, and do all the work in a moment?

That is how I look at matters of this kind. Today I see believers in the Presbyterian church singing in the choir; but in a moment I see the thing turned around and I see them in heaven. What has happened in between? Whatever it is, God has done it.

Rem. The Lord said, "To-day".

A.B. This morning you referred to verse 6 in connection with the eternal state: "And he said to me, It is done". The whole work is accomplished. There may be difficulty in regard to questions and inquiries, but the great thing is that it is done.

J.T. So if you take Genesis 1six days and it is done; the work is done. God rests on the seventh.

H.H. Could we not add the transaction at the cross, the comparatively short time in which the whole question of sin was dealt with? And the Lord said, "It is finished".

J.T. Quite so.

C.H.H. Would the Thessalonians be an example of how quickly things can be done in the souls of people? It says the word sounded out from them when they had been converted only two or three weeks; still they were a testimony all over the country.

S.J.H. I thought that reward and the position in that day were dependent on our education and formation now. Is that wrong? If it is not a matter of formation through exercise now, we could sit back and it would be all right in the day to come.

J.T. You cannot reason that way. We have been speaking of the six days of the creation, and that on the sixth day all was done, even the creation of Adam and Eve, and God rested and was refreshed, meaning it had been a real matter of toil. He waited to create Adam and Eve till the last day for a special reason; all that He says about them took place on the sixth day. In chapter 1 God says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth". When we come to chapter 2 it is said, "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of

life; and Man became a living soul" (verse 7). That happened on the sixth day. Well, how much more He could have done! How many minutes did His operations take? How much time did it take to fill out the expanse on the second day? He took the earth out of the sea and set it up in life in a day. How much more He could have done! That is the way to arrive at the truth. If the scripture is silent you come back to God and what He can do, and rest in that. We have a lot of things in our minds and we are apt to get confused. We are now on the idea of how christians in the different sects, hardly educated at all spiritually, are to come out when this millennial day arrives.

How will they have part in it at all? How awkward they must be! And we are trying to think of what God can do in view of education-how much He can effect in view of His own eternal purpose. What we are saying is, I think, important, that God can do everything. Job says, "I know that thou canst do everything", Job 42:2. He had needed great adjustments, but he arrives at that, and that is what we have to arrive at, to understand and know Him, what He can do. We have to follow the creative line and what God can do, and what He can do in educating christians; the thousand ways we may arrive at things by bringing God in.

W.F.K. Is that the idea when Abraham says, "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?", Genesis 18:25?

J.T. Just so; that is another thing. You look at all this war, the atrocities, but God can deal with these things in every detail; He will not overlook one. Every one will be dealt with.

C.H.H. The man at the Beautiful gate was a beggar one minute and the next minute he was a worshipper.

H.H. Is there not in all that the thought that the Holy Spirit is here? And it can never be said of the

Holy Spirit that He did not complete His work in every detail.

J.T. I would say that. But I was thinking of the material creation, the vegetable kingdom. A man says, "How are the dead raised? and with what body do they come?". That is simply a natural question. It is an act of God. The apostle says, "Fool". Take wheat, or corn, or any cereal: put any number of them into the ground: well, God gives them all bodies as it pleases Him. Apply that now to all the brethren, christians in the different sects, uneducated spiritually, what cannot God do in view of translation, overnight?

R.W.S. I am getting great help. I had never thought of it in this way.

J.T. I think it would turn us to God to see what may happen overnight. And yet we are praying about what may happen. Take our children turning aside into the world; we know they are the Lord's; what may God not do in a moment with them?

T.L.S. In Ezekiel 37 there is an exceeding great army that comes suddenly into life.

J.T. Even the skin comes upon them; they are brought into being. It is a real thing. There is ornamentation in the skin.

T.L.S. Would you say that in John 12 there was quick adjustment by divine power? I have in mind the adjustment of the family, of Martha serving more intelligently, and of Lazarus the dead man being there, and Christ supreme in their hearts. It happened in a very short period of time.

E.A.L. Do you mean that we are to be careful not to question the right of God to be magnanimous, as those did who worked through the heat of the day for a penny?

J.T. Yes; God has a right to be magnanimous. But if you apply the thing to the vegetable world or the fish of the sea, you see what can be done by God.

Take the Lord in the incident of the fish in Matthew 17; He says to Peter, Cast a hook into the sea. There is to be one fish and in that one fish's mouth one piece of silver. That all happened. The Lord must have been operating there before. When Jonah says, Cast me into the sea, the fish came and swallowed him up; it says Jehovah had prepared that fish. That was quick work.

Rem. And then the gourd; it came up overnight.

J.T. Quite so; various things were quickly prepared in Jonah's case. So when we come to the bodies of the saints it says in Matthew that "many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many" (chapter 27: 52, 53). Well now, suppose they had all arisen at that time, how many would there be? Who can tell, from Adam down? They will all come out in the twinkling of an eye, and those who are alive here will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. It throws us back on God and the knowledge of God. The Holy Spirit is working in us to that end, that we might know God.

H.B. "Can a land be made to bring forth in one day? shall a nation be born at once?", Isaiah 66:8.

J.T. Quite so. In our inquiry now it all resolves itself into a question of the knowledge of God. Paul says, "Some are ignorant of God"; not simply 'about' God but ignorant 'of' God. We are now looking at this great subject of the millennium, the great administrative matter, and it is for us to proceed in our inquiry in the light of the knowledge of God which He has given to us, and to see how all this can come about. We must see how the number twelve is the great numeral for our education; how it enters into the measurements. One of the features we must understand is that God is the God of measure; the knowledge of God implies knowing Him as the God of measure. He is the God of glory, but He is the

God of measure too, and we have to apply that here. We are in the presence of God in our inquiry, but it is as the God of measure. So it is said that she has the glory of God, the heavenly city has that; and "Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. On the east three gates; and on the north three gates; and on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb". So that now we are, as it were, brought up to this city. It is not a bride adorned for her husband exactly; it is a great administrative city, and there are persons' names involved in it. That is, there are certain classes of persons, angels, and the sons of Israel, and the twelve apostles of the Lamb. We are bound now to consider what all this means, and how it is going to work out. Then the next thing is, "And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its wall. And the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed-twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal. And he measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits, a man's measure, that is, the angel's". Now we are, as it were, there. What are we to make out of this? Are we able to take in these measurements, and these persons mentioned? Then we have its foundations: "And the building of its wall was jasper; and the city pure gold, like pure glass: the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: the first foundation, jasper ...". We have to take into our minds the idea of the twelve foundations, that it is a great structure. Twelve foundations! So that it is a question

of our power of absorption, whether we can take in these measurements; and then to see that we are being educated to have part in this structure when it begins to function.

H.H. I would like to ask about the measurement according to the angel.

J.T. It is a man's measurement, it is brought down to our compass. It is not infinite. We are in the presence, not of infinity, but of man's measure; it is what God has wrought in man. That is the point. The measurement is according to man, within our range.

H.H. Why does it say "the angel's"?

J.T. It is instrumentality, clearly. That has a great place in this book. But it is a man's measurement.

C.H.H. Would the fact that it is an angel infer that man has arrived at heavenly ability to measure things?

J.T. Yes. I suppose then we shall know a little more about angels than we do now; but we are not to enquire too much into it, because God has intimated to us that families are to be kept distinct. The light that shines for us in Jesus is not for angels; it is for us. He is the Light of men.

C.H.H. A man's measurement here would be no different from the angel's?

J.T. No. Man's measurement would mean it is finite. It is intelligible to us who are men. It is very hard to take this in with the natural mind because the city is a cube. How can you get persons, an untold number of persons, formed into a city, and that a cube? It is humanly incomprehensible. We have, therefore, to go back again to God as to how the thing can be; how it works out. It is a solemn and substantial matter and yet it is formed of persons.

-.M. What is the difference between this city and the one that Ezekiel sees?

J.T. Well, this is the heavenly city, formed of ourselves, to be simple and practical. We are being formed for it now and put into it even now. But Ezekiel is an earthly state of things; it is what will be set up in Israel presently according to God's purpose on earth. But we are now occupied with the heavenly; and to pursue the subject, we are told that these twelve foundations are the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The precious stones are brought in to show how intrinsically precious the thing is, and how strong the foundational idea, that it will stand eternally.

A.B. Things seem much clearer as considering your reference to Genesis in connection with what you have been saying: God working at the outset and bringing man in, and then Babel coming in, the result of man's mind as away from God. And now we have what is set over against that. Would you say it is most interesting that God held man in relation to Himself, and now we have a city composed of men, persons? There is no difference. He says, "Come here, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife": it is a city.

J.T. Showing that God has in His mind to stress the administrative idea as worked out millennially: Then as to the effect of it: when all these things are stated we have the moral question. He says, "And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon, that they should shine for it". It is a heavenly, spiritual matter. The lights were set up in Genesis and were needed, but no natural lights are needed here, for "The Lord God shall shine upon them". Yet we have terms here that belong to the beginning of Genesis; really the allusion is to Jehovah Elohim, showing the extent of this matter, that it extends back to the beginning of creation and is now workable in relation to men in flesh and blood here, in the nations, through the heavenly city. There they are, even the nations. God says, I am going to rule in these circumstances, but this is a heavenly thing through which

I am ruling. It needs no natural light. No statesmanship or education or politics or business will be of any avail here. We are being made now and educated on these lines. How are we getting on? Let us challenge ourselves: How can I get on without the sun or moon or electricity? I have to challenge myself, and that brings up the question of spiritual constitution in us, and of what we are as spiritually formed. So it is said that Christ is a quickening Spirit, the last Adam is a quickening Spirit. He has quickened us and made us for this purpose, so that we do not need these natural lights. And we are told what the effect is in this new state of things: "And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon, that they should shine for it; for the glory of God has enlightened it, and the lamp thereof is the Lamb. And the nations shall walk by its light". That is, they have learned now to walk by light that is not merely the product of man's mind. It is another kind of light. "The kings of the earth bring their glory to it". It is showing itself to be superior. What God has provided in view of all this is superior to everything else, there is nothing like it. Then, "And its gates shall not be shut at all by day, for night shall not be there". In Genesis 1 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night, but these two ideas stop here, they are finished. We are now dealing with another order of things, so that there is no night here, and the light is not from the sun or from the moon but from something else: the Lamb is the light thereof, the Lord God and the Lamb. And then we are told, "The nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it ... . And nothing common, nor that maketh an abomination and a lie, shall at all enter into it; but those only who are written in the book of life of the Lamb". I think we are challenged as to whether we can take these things in, whether we can carry the thoughts away, whether we are capable of absorbing

spiritual thoughts. How can we have light without any sun or moon or stars?

C.H.H. Would there be anything akin in Colossians where it says as to the assembly, "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge", Colossians 2:3? According to that you need no natural light whatever.

J.T. That comes into what we are saying. We do not have to go outside for light. The Colossians were in danger of natural lights, philosophy and vain deceit, but the apostle says these are not needed; they are not right and they are not needed.

A.A.T. Is it moral light you are speaking of?

J.T. Yes; it is light in the sense in which you say, My soul was enlightened, and enlightened by what is said. You might be in a dark cellar, and yet say that; you are enlightened by what is said.

S.J.H. Paul and Silas in prison were not affected by their circumstances; they had light.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would it be like "God is fight"?

J.T. Just so. Now as regards the effect of the city, the verses read in the next chapter show how benign, how enriching it is; that the whole scene below is refreshed and invigorated by it. All the effects of sin that have been working are removed by the healing power of the leaves of the tree of life. Chapter 22 brings out the healing effect of this wonderful tree on the nations and all below. And surely there is some moral connection now as to its effect in the conditions among the brethren; as to whether this matter is not practical so that we might be healed today. Let us be healed! Why should there be a laceration amongst us?

C.H.H. Would Philippians 2:15, 16 in any way correspond with her shining? "Among whom ye appear as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life".

J.T. Quite; it is clearly applicable because it shows that what we are now is to work out then in this wonderful system; the tree of life in the midst of the street, and this river, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb. We can only touch it, but if we are at all able to take the thing in spiritually we shall see what an effect it will all have. When what we are now is turned to account by the power of God, what an effect it will have on all below! And so God is going to change this present earth and its woes benignly through the assembly, through the heavenly city, to bring about a state of recovery all working out from the heavenly city above.

H.H. As to the producing of the twelve fruits, in each month its fruit, what would be the relation of the fruit to the month?

J.T. I think it is to show that we are still in time. We have been dealing with an eternal state of things in chapter 21, but now we are dealing with time, and assembly time is most precious and should not be wasted. We were speaking of that lately in connection with Luke 22:14: "And when the hour was come, he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him". It is an administrative position that the Lord was in. The Lord's supper was instituted in administrative conditions.

H. H. Who benefits by this fruit? Who eats it?

J.T. It is for the inhabitants of the city, for the elite -- not for the nations or the Jews; they get the leaves. Israel may get some of the fruit because they are at the gates, but the inhabitants of the city are the assembly, or those raised from the dead at the same time, and the fruit of the tree of life is entirely for the celestial residents of the heavenly city. It is their fruit.

C.H.H. Would the twelve fruits refer to variety in ministry, like the produce of Solomon's twelve

superintendents? The provision would not only be fresh, but would have variety in it.

J.T. Just so; every month something different. That ought to affect us too.

C.H.H. Would you apply it in any sense to our monthly meetings?

J.T. They are numerous now. We had about twenty meetings last year lasting for three days each; and we need freshness for these. In addition I do not know how many weekly meetings, so-called special meetings, we had. What you suggest is well worth considering, as to how we are going to maintain freshness; because we are learning how to be fresh now. The bride begins with freshness. After one thousand years she is still fresh. Well, these celestial people that are contemplated in the heavenly city are maintained in freshness by these twelve kinds of fruit. But then, that is not the eternal state of things; eternity is not in mind. What is in mind is time. God made time and used it first, and He shows us how to use it. We should learn to use it, and not come late to the meetings, for we are dealing now with assembly time; not with factory time, but with assembly time. "And when the hour was come", it says, "he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him". It is a question of administration, and time is precious so as to get everything done. Things are not to be left undone.

H.H. He must have been there early in order to sit down at the right time.

Ques. A good deal of sleeping goes on in assembly time. It is not the time for that, is it?

J.T. Jonah learned something about sleeping at the wrong time!

S.J.H. Inasmuch as it is the holy city, and heavenly, and comes down from God, why does it need a high wall?

J.T. Because of conditions below. We have already said that the millennium has to do with conditions on the earth; the remedy is from heaven. The remedy does not arise from conditions on the earth but from conditions in heaven; it is to bring out and establish the precedence of heaven in everything. So that is the point here, that she comes down from God out of heaven with conditions made to meet earthly conditions. That is not what you get in chapter 21; at the beginning of that chapter she comes down in relation to new creation, a new heaven and a new earth. But here she comes down in relation to men in the flesh, the nations and Israel as a nation.

S.J.H. The wall is not for our protection, for holiness would take the place of that; but it is needed for the earth.

J.T. The idea of the wall is to educate our minds that there is no admission of evil there at all. The heavenly city is proof against anything of that kind, and that would be conveyed in the idea of the height of the wall.

Rem. In the beginning of chapter 21 there is no clock, but at the end of the chapter there is the clock.

J.T. In the city it is administrative time, and therefore very precious. Of course factory time is precious too, and the scale of wages is very high; but it is not so high as that with which we are dealing now, the value of assembly time. It is in view of what is here below. The holy city has come into time as the Lord came into time, as God came into time. The first part of chapter 21 leads us into eternity, where time is no more; but time is stressed here, and that we should be kept free in time. If we are late for the meeting, we are very apt to be flustered if the brethren start to sing a hymn and we are not just in the state to join in. We need to be adjusted. We all, perhaps, transgress in this sense, but it is well to keep it before us. Assembly time is precious and when the

hour was come the Lord was there. He did not just come in to take His place; He was already there.

R.H. Verse 10 of chapter 22 says; "The time is near".

J.T. Just so. The meaning of that is seen in what follows: "Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still". There is no time for setting up anything new, to introduce any new ways or principles; the time is near. God would say that what you are you must remain, as it were, judicially; if you are filthy there is no time to change. It is to impress us with the seriousness of being filthy, I think that is what is meant. God would say that if you are in that state there is no time left; adjustment must take place at once or not at all.

R.W.S. Does all this bear on the fact that God seems to be going on with what He has already in hand without enlarging things greatly? The additions are not so frequent as they were in the past. Does the wall appear to be higher because of the various tests coming up?

J.T. Yes; the need for the height of the wall is being stressed, and the measuring of it too. As has been remarked, Let him that is filthy be filthy still, a most solemn thing. But it must be ironical with God. The nearness of the time when God will say that all is over is to impress us with the seriousness of not settling matters. Then the final thought in mind is in verse 16 -- the way in which the Lord comes back to us after carrying us to such heights, as it were, in this book, carrying us into the heavenlies, and then back to the wonderful administration on earth for one thousand years, with this wonderful structure functioning, enlightening the universe. It

is not simply that things are shown in a general way, but the assembly is like a temple; the nations inquire there to get light; those below get light and instruction from it. But after all the instruction of that is over, the Lord comes back to ordinary conditions such as we have here in Montreal, and He says, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". The Lord would say just that to us: "I Jesus". Because after all, in the government of God we may continue on here a little longer, and if so it is Jesus; as on the mount of transfiguration they looked around after all the glory, and it was Jesus alone with themselves. That is the position. His angel has been sent to testify these things to us in our localities, in the assemblies, and then the response: "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come". We are to be active on those lines; the Lord would say to us right now, Go on with those lines. It is "I Jesus".

He is going to keep on as "I Jesus". And the angels are subject, they are sent out as ministers; and we are to go on telling people about the living water. We are not to enlarge so much on the river that flows out of the throne as to point out that the living water is available. It is really the living water, the Spirit, that is in mind in the gospel in the present dispensation. It is not a millennial matter, but a matter of the present dispensation, God presenting Himself in the gospel and in the presence of the Holy Spirit here below in the assembly, to save men. That is what these verses mean, I believe. So that it says, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come; he that will, let him take the water of life freely". So that we can move on maybe for a few weeks more on Sunday evenings, and the Lord will say, I am going to be with you.

C.H.H. It is not the missionary aspect, but more what is just here.

J.T. What "I Jesus" will do. What He was there in Palestine He is here now to His people, to the everyday man and woman. We have Him as the truth and the Spirit as the water of life.

Ques. What about "The Spirit and the bride say, Come"?

J.T. I think that is to stress how the Spirit is personally amongst us. The question often comes up as to whether we speak to the Spirit; but here He Himself is viewed as speaking, that He is affected Himself in regard of the coming of the Lord Jesus. And then the bride also says, "Come". It is a beautiful response given with that of the Spirit, which will be infinite for the coming of the Lord.

FULNESS

Genesis 15:16 (last clause); Romans 11as (last two clauses); Ephesians 1:22, 23

I have in mind to speak about fulness. It may be spoken of under three heads: first, fulness in connection with the Amorites, for though the word is not actually used in Genesis 15:16, the word 'full' gives the same sense: "the iniquity ... is not yet full"; then the fulness of the gentiles, referring to ourselves as part of the race; and thirdly, the fulness of Christ, alluding to the assembly of which we, as christians, form part.

My first scripture, being of a negative character, will not detain me beyond the measure proper to it. It refers to sin becoming exceedingly sinful. The law has this effect, "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful", Romans 7:13. But the Amorites had no law to effect this. Sin was working in them without it, and it is working now without the aid of the law in many parts; but instead of things becoming in any sense better and better on the earth they are becoming worse and worse, and this is not to be changed from within. It will be changed from without; that is, it will be changed by God's judicial action, a sorry contemplation for men without God, as there is no hope of a millennium working out of present conditions in the race, no Utopia or other change of that kind. There will be a wonderful time on earth, but it will not be by what works out from within, but by God coming in and removing sin. It will be effected by God. He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness, that is in the sense of physical judgment. But preceding the physical judgment, and including it, there will be a terrible dealing with actual sin, that is, sin according to its true meaning, which is lawlessness; men doing

their own wills, whether as nations, tribes, families or individuals. God will produce ways and means by which sin will be effectively dealt with and removed. A little evidence of it will remain for a thousand years, but it will be ultimately judicially removed, removed thoroughly and for ever. It is not that sin essentially is destroyed, it remains, but in God's own wise ways it will be relegated to its own place and allowed to continue in some sense but entirely under divine regulation.

Now this scripture in Genesis does not contemplate that. It contemplates something in the form of sin progressing and coming to the full. God Himself says to Abraham, I am waiting for that, and you will have to wait too, and while you are waiting things will become better in your family. God had taken up Abraham and his family, indeed the word 'fulness' attaches to it, and the fulness of Israel is coming in too. It is not fulness in the sense of wickedness but in the sense of what is law-abiding, for God says of Abraham, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:19. He intimates in that chapter by the expression "after him" that he would die and be buried, but not cease to exist, for Abraham was held in the divine mind from the outset as essential to the divine purposes. And things were to go well with his family: "They shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him". So that Abraham was not to fear in this announcement of God, that the iniquity of the Amorites had not yet come to the full. Abraham might say, I am here where they are, for he was a stranger there for the moment, a pilgrim and a stranger. The Amorites were not pilgrims and strangers, they belonged to the place according to their own reckoning, and as sin continued developing among them God was saying, It is going to be that way until

it comes to the full. This is a most serious thing for anyone who is admitting of any of this world's lawlessness, admitting of it either by word, gesture, walk or conduct, for God says, This must come to an end! It is going to come to an end but it must come to the full first-a most serious matter! He will wait, will give plenty of time, so to speak, until it comes to the full. Sometimes we question why current occurrences are happening, why God allows them, but that is God's prerogative, it is His way. If He intends that sin should go on after Adam and Eve transgressed, intends that it should go on and on as it has done for all these years, centuries, millenniums, that is His prerogative. If God wills that sin is to work out to its fulness, then He will do something drastic, something final.

So it is that if in any way our relations, public or private, are on the principle of sin, that is lawlessness, for that is the meaning of the word 'sin'. It is something that has no law; law in the true sense of the word is not admitted. Perhaps we admit it in some matters but not in everything, but God will bring everything to pass in the believer. There must be an end to lawlessness in him, and if it does not cease God may have to say to us, 'It has gone on too long'. The Amorites' sin went on too long and therefore the Amorites, as a whole, were not saved. The Israelites had no commission to convert the Amorites. Whatever commission they had as to them was for their destruction-a most solemn thing! God indicated that from the time He was speaking to Abraham until that should come about, approximately four hundred years should elapse. The Israelites should go down to Egypt themselves, and the principle of their stay in Egypt would be that lawlessness in them should come to an end. Hence the law made sin exceeding sinful.

Sin was never more sinful than it was in Israel, that is the Israel of the flesh, and the law helped that. So

it is now that christendom has taken that same place. The Lord said to the scribes and Pharisees, "Ye, fill ye up the measure of your fathers", Matthew 23:32. That is, their measure was sin in the sense of murder, and that measure is brought into the history of Israel. Even Cain's murder comes into that, and the example set by their fathers is filled up. A converted man is not going to pursue his father's ways. His father was unconverted and died unconverted, and he is not going to fill out his father's sins if he is converted. Yet the Jews were doing that. But the time of conversion has come and the Lord says, 'There will be no hope for them unless they repent'. Then He acts judicially to prevent their conversion. It is a terrible thing to continue in a course of lawlessness in any degree, because God is saying, 'It must stop'. He has fixed the day and the moment for it to stop, and there is no hope for you after that. Take advantage of the converting time!

In Isaiah 6:10 it says, "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and blind their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and healed". And in 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12 we read, "For this reason God sends to them a working of error, that they should believe what is false, that all might be judged who have not believed the truth, but have found pleasure in unrighteousness". How solemn it is that God should act in this way, allowing sin to go on and on until He Himself stops it! He has fixed a day when it is going to be stopped, and then it will be stopped. But the point is for you to stop now. It is your opportunity now to stop, your opportunity to be converted; not so when the Lord says in Isaiah, "Lest they ... be converted, and healed". So it is that the apostle Paul says of the Jews, "That they may fill up their sins always", 1 Thessalonians 2:16.

Even in a christian community, like the assembly of Corinth, there are these warnings. The apostle Paul says, for instance, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says", 1 Corinthians 14:34. And no doubt they were. 1 Corinthians thus is full of directions. We may say, 'They are only trifles'; but not one of them is a trifle. So the apostle goes on to say, "But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant" (verse 38). Do not say, What is the matter with God? I am speaking from the word of God, and God says, "But if any be ignorant, let him be ignorant". And so elsewhere the Lord says, "Let the filthy make himself filthy still", Revelation 22:11. You may say, That does not comport with the gospel, but I reply, It comports with the word of God. God is saying that to a christian company some of whom are lawless, and He may be saying it ironically, but it might help some who are standing in their own light to see what they are doing. The principle is that if people will be that, and they show that they are going to be that, God says, I am determined they shall be that; I have fixed the day, let them be it, let them be filthy! It says also in the same verse, "And he that is holy, let him be sanctified still". That statement is perfectly suitable and logical, but for God to say, 'If a man be filthy, let him be filthy', should arrest us.

What past history is involved? Matters have been neglected and are still being neglected, and they may stand like that.

So it was with the Amorites, their condition was fixed; it was only a matter of years, four hundred years. God showed remarkable longsuffering in allowing the Amorites to go on for that four hundred years. No wonder that when Joshua crossed the Jordan, and Israel with him bearing the ark, the symbol of divine power, so that the waters of Jordan rolled back to the city Adam and were cut off toward

the Dead Sea, the Amorites began to quake and fear! The time had come, the four hundred years had spent themselves, and there was nothing for the Amorites but destruction. So it is now, for we are living in times of this kind when sin is mounting up to heaven. Why is God not striking? Why does He allow the things that are happening? The best answer to that is that He is doing it. If God did not allow these things to go on as they are, they could not go on; God is ordering it. But let those who have part in the light, outwardly at least, take notice that we may be drawn into that whirlwind of things. We may be drawn into it although christians, or at least nominal christians, and it may happen that the iniquity will come to the full and God will strike and it will be finished! I cannot say too much about the negative side but it is a solemn thing. Sin at the present time is becoming exceedingly sinful, not so much in China, India or South Africa, for there it is no question of the Lord, but it is in christendom where sin in its nakedness is working, and God is allowing it.

Now over against that we have "the fulness of the nations" coming in. It is not the fulness of time for the nations, though that also is found in the Scriptures. The fulness of time for the nations is measured by years, God having allotted a certain time to work out something with the nations as nations. But the verse I read in Romans 11 is not the fulness of times for the nations but "the fulness of the nations", or the gentiles, and that is not a matter of wickedness. You might say it is if you looked around, but God is not dealing with it like that in this scripture. He is not leaving the human race for the devil altogether, for He is saying, I am working out something according to My purpose in the nations, and their fulness will be that. That is what these readings mean and others like them, and what the gospel implies. Consider the remarkable meeting at Jerusalem in Acts 15, what we

may call a church council, perhaps the only one ever held that was owned of God. There were many afterwards but we cannot say God owned them, yet we can say God owned that council, and it was a remarkable time. Paul and Barnabas went there from Antioch because of certain teachings that had come down from Jerusalem. The apostles were there and Barnabas and Paul went there from Antioch to see about this matter. It was a matter of administration, a matter of adjustment of doctrine. It is a very important matter that doctrine be right. We have already been speaking today of the doctrine of Balaam, an awful thing! It takes form at certain times when some unrighteous conduct is condoned in a place and presently it is legalised and formulated into doctrine. Balaam's sin was that, "the doctrine of Balaam" it is called. Then, too, there was "the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes".

Now this may be going on with us in certain communities, as it went on at Jerusalem in some sense. There were those there of the Pharisees suggesting Pharisaic conditions, and others, perhaps Sadducees, who worked out judicial reasons for certain evil conduct, requiring that the christians who had been liberated by the death of Christ be brought into bondage. Christ had set them free, He had said that Himself, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free", John 8:36. Hence the wickedness of persons formulating the doctrine that saints must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses, which is what they were saying at Jerusalem. It was wickedness. So Paul and Barnabas went up from Antioch and were received by the apostles. The apostles were not infected by the doctrine, thank God; they were kept throughout. But others had been infected, though not the mass of the people. They came together and Paul and Barnabas told them about the wonderful works of God among the nations. It exhilarated them

to hear how the Spirit of God was working abroad among the nations. Idolatry was overthrown, for many hundreds, I suppose thousands, were converted in Asia Minor, as Paul says elsewhere, "So that I, from Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum, have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ", Romans 15:19. I do not suppose he had gone all the way at that time. Thus they had a very encouraging and profitable time at Jerusalem at that first great council. We speak of it more properly today as an assembly meeting. Peter got up at the end of the discussions and said, "Brethren, ye know that from the earliest days God amongst you chose that the nations by my mouth should hear the word of the glad tidings and believe", Acts 15:7. He says, "by my mouth", not 'by my writings'. The gospel was not spread abroad among the heathen by writings, writings came in after that. The testimony was by word of mouth, which is usual, and the confirmation is by writing. The writing is to endure but the testimony is from man's mouth. Peter says, By my mouth the gentiles were to hear. Then James gets up immediately, or at least, shortly afterwards, and says, "Simon has related how God first visited to take out of the nations a people for his name".

Now that is what is meant by "the fulness of the nations". It has been going on, and it is going on tonight in this very hall in a little way. The intent is that as we sit here these three days and talk together the Spirit of God may do something, and that something is to separate us from the world, to take us out from among the nations for Himself. You get nothing of it in the newspapers. You may get religious notices, some of them announcing the preaching of the gospel too, but this matter is not public news, it is the news of heaven-of what God is doing. He is doing it even on the battlefields. All this helps to make it clear that the fulness of the nations refers to the saints,

ourselves, and all the saints that have been gathered out from among the nations, including those from among the Jews, since Pentecost until now, and those who are yet to come. This verse implies that the work is going to continue on until the last soul is secured for God. May God grant that something of a separating character may go on in the heart of every one of us here, something of a sanctifying character that will make us usable by God and pleasing to Him! The fulness of the nations, what a time it is! The very suggestion implies that God is taking out of the nations a people for Himself, to dwell among them. That is going on, and it will go on too, for though the time left may not be very long there will be completion. It really synchronises with the completion of the assembly.

I want to come to the assembly in verse 22 of Ephesians 1. Ephesians is the assembly epistle par excellence in the sense of blessing, not exactly in the sense of order, government or administration, but in the sense of blessing. The Spirit of God has singled out that assembly for the apostle Paul, that he might write to it the fulness of heaven's mind and heart in regard to the gospel and the ministry in which it culminates. It involves the gathering out of the assembly and forming it into one body; as is said here, "The assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". What a thought that is! We can think of it by itself, so to speak, abstractly, but how blessed and how great it is too that we should be able to think of it as inclusive of ourselves at this very minute; for the work that is going on at this very minute in relation to it all is in view of translation. So the Lord is said here to be given to be "Head over all things to the assembly"; not here Head of the assembly, it is said elsewhere that He is "head of the body, the assembly". We get that idea in Colossians, and in Ephesians too, but here He is given to be

"Head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all".

I would encourage the brethren to transfer their minds from the fulness of the gentiles to this thought of the assembly, which is the same thing only viewed in another way. How patiently God has gone on with the nations and raised up governments century after century to keep order, to police the world, keep down evil, restrain it, so that this precious thing should be brought out, the fulness of the nations. I do not say that organised government has had anything to do directly with that, though used of God; it is the Spirit of God who has done it through the influence of the teaching from above. Then we transfer our minds from that to the great thought of the assembly, Christ's body. It is "the fulness of him who fills all in all". Paul prays "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him, being enlightened in the eyes of your heart, so that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints", Ephesians 1:17, 18. This is all a prayer on our behalf, and it goes on: "and what the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength, in which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead, and he set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies, above every principality, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in that to come; and has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:19 - 23. Dear brethren, I have read those verses because of their magnificent richness. And they are all applicable to us. They are not written about the Jews or any other nation, tribe or kingdom, they are

written about the saints that form the assembly, the people of Christ at the present time. Such have received the Spirit on the principle of faith, as it is said in this chapter, "In whom ye also have trusted, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory" (verses 13, 14).

So that what I have read is one of the most magnificent passages that applies to us, to our very selves, though not to us exclusively. It applies to myriads, extending back for over nineteen centuries, and it applies to our very selves at this present time. What is going on here in this small way is the continuance of this work of God, so that there should be what is called "the assembly" over which Christ is Head; it is great enough to be His body, the expression of Himself, the fulness of Himself. It is marvellous "the fulness", and yet that is spoken of creatures. The assembly is not divine, yet it is said to be the fulness of a divine Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, "the fulness of him who fills all in all". That expression could only apply to God. Christ is God, the One who fills all in all is God. Indeed it is said in 1 Corinthians 15, "That God may be all in all". That is the great ultimate of all the operations of God and it enters into what I am saying, for we ourselves here, a few christians in this city of Montreal, gathered from many parts, we belong to that. These meetings have in mind that heaven has had to do with us, and that being so we would like to know what is in the mind of God concerning this wonderful formation called the assembly, which is Christ's body, His fulness. It is not stated as being simply the fulness of Christ, but the fulness of Him who fills all in all, suggesting God; for that Person is God; Deity is

there, and yet the assembly is the fulness of that! In Colossians the fulness of Deity is Christ, "For in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell" (chapter 1: 19); and so in chapter 2: 9. The fulness of the Deity is undoubtedly in Christ personally, and the fulness of Christ is the assembly.

I cannot say much more, I have arrived at the limit of the matter. The great ultimate of God, in that sense, is Christ, "Head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". There we have Deity-God. It is God in Christ, of course, but nevertheless it is God. We would not alter that, and, dear brethren, we belong to that. Is it not enough to move us, to make us see what we are missing if we are not practically in it? How can I afford to be out of it, to say nothing of the danger! If it is mine according to divine light I want to be in it, otherwise I can hardly be classified as a responsible person. This is what is within our reach, that those who are real christians according to divine light are the fulness of Christ, "who fills all in all". How marvellous! That is really what the epistle to the Ephesians is throughout the book, wherein christianity in its fulness is set out. It is applied mainly to the gentiles, though there are some Jews; but now it is almost exclusively gentiles. And it covers this wonderful inheritance that has been brought down to us while we are still here on earth, but about to be translated to heaven; meanwhile we are being purified by current conditions so as to be fit for translation, suitable for the pleasure of God.

PURIFICATION (1)

John 3:1 - 12; Ezekiel 36:24 - 32

J.T. The thought is that we might trace a little the idea of purification. The third chapter of John, which is no doubt well known by most of us, leads in our subject in a basic sense. The Lord evidently selected the man to open up the subject to him, and he represents a class. He remained in the Sanhedrim after his conversation. He never openly identified himself with Christ until the Lord died. There are many like that now, and so we should have open minds as to the setting of this subject, to include in them persons who are not separate outwardly, and yet are genuine to some extent. The Lord may be working with them, and we have to keep those people in mind as well as those we know who are in the truth. There are many undoubtedly in mind in 2 Timothy 2:19, "The Lord knows those that are his", and there are some marks which they bear and, although carrying worldliness, when put to the test they show that they have some regard for the Lord and secretly are indeed His. Nicodemus represents this class. Therefore, it is said, "There was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; he came to him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art come a teacher from God, for none can do these signs that thou doest unless God be with him". This was his speech. The Lord did not accost him first. He accosted the Lord. He came to Jesus by night and addressed Him as "Rabbi" which shows he recognised Him as a teacher; he himself was a teacher. It goes on to show that he links the Lord with God, which is a great matter "We know that thou art come a teacher from God, for none can do these signs that thou doest unless

God be with him". Therefore, the Lord has a basis to work on and proceeds to use one of the double 'verilies', "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". That is the Lord's first remark, and if we bear it in mind, it will help us throughout. One has to be born anew. The Lord does not say to him that personally he had to be, for he had been born anew. Hence, the true persons of this type have something, some discernment, and the Lord's first remark shows that they have got to face this fact that new birth has to be known and felt, so He proceeds further to open up the next remarks.

C.H.H. Would you say that the fact that he uses "we" indicates that he represents a class? Would that bring the whole class that he represents under the responsibility of the present day?

J.T. I suppose so. This light the Lord furnishes, this teaching, is for them especially, in fact, wholly, for already the Lord had discriminated against others.

The "but" of the first verse discriminates. Others, we are told, the Lord had no confidence in. It says in chapter 2: 24, "But Jesus himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man". Therefore, the Lord Jesus is regarded here as come from heaven, having discriminative feelings amongst men. They are different in His eyes. There is a difference between those that can be trusted and those who cannot. He knew. We might as well just eliminate them if we only knew, but of course, the gospel includes them. This is not exactly a gospel address. It is a teaching address and they are excluded in the Lord's mind. Men like Nicodemus are included in what He has to say.

S.McC. It is interesting that over against what Nicodemus says, "We know", the Lord says, "We

speak that which we know". He does not say, 'I speak that which I know', but "we speak that which we know". What do you think the Lord has in mind in that "we" there over against the "I say unto thee"?

J.T. I think it would be the 'we' of authority, one who knows. "We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness". The "ye" there addressed to Nicodemus is, I would think, the Pharisees, those who did not receive the Lord's witness. What would you say?

S.McC. I was wanting to know about the use of the word 'we'. He had been speaking about "I" all through. Then he says in this verse, "We speak". Is He including the disciples?

J.T. I think it is more authority. They are not yet in the picture as to teaching in John, because John the baptist had not yet been cast into prison. The Lord had not formally started His ministry yet. The "we" would be in authority. As regards the "we" Nicodemus used, "we know", that would be probably his own class, persons he knew who had formed a judgment as he had about the Lord Jesus that He had come from God. He was basing it on signs. But the other "we", I think, is the "we" of authority. The Lord might have included others. He might have included John the baptist, but it would seem that what He had to say was referring to Himself because He says, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?". His mind turns to those who did not believe and He uses the singular, referring to Himself personally. So it seems as if at the outset we should learn to speak in the same way, with some measure of authority if we know, and if the persons we are speaking to show that they are against the truth, we have to tell them.

A.A.T. I was wondering whether "we know" is knowledge in the matter of growth?

J.T. It is a question of whether Nicodemus' "we know" is a matter of knowledge of some persons like himself who by the signs that the Lord performed concluded that He came from God. You might call that growth. I should think there is some sense that Nicodemus implies that he had thought of what the Lord had been doing. So we have to judge every one of these 'we knows' by itself, as to what it may mean. Now what is before us is that Nicodemus is an interested man. The Lord acknowledges that in the way He speaks to him. There were others that He would not speak to in that way.

J.W.B. Would "Rabbi", as Nicodemus calls Him, involve the thought of seeing? In the first chapter, we have the two disciples of John who say "Rabbi ... where abidest thou?", and He says, "Come and see". Then Nathanael calls him "Rabbi" at the end of the first chapter, and the Lord tells him that he shall "see greater things than these".

J.T. He says to Him, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God". That "Rabbi" is of great value. It enters into John's line, John's way. It is a title that is much used in John. It ends in the word "Rabboni" used by Mary Magdalene, "My Teacher", which shows that it runs through John and it ought to appeal to us in our present inquiry as to whether we are ready to be taught, because John implies that the christian ought to be taught. John says that they shall be all taught of God. There is a great amount of teaching if we listen and profit by it. Nathanael is with the Lord and he is a quick learner, too. He is a much quicker learner than Nicodemus. Nicodemus is a slow learner, but still he learned. The point is to be learners, take in the right teaching.

S.W.P. Would Nicodemus present himself as willing for adjustment?

J.T. I do not know whether he is willing to go the whole way. The sequel would hardly show that he was immediately ready to go the whole way with the Lord, because he stayed in the council. Nathanael is a quick learner. The Lord called him, "An Israelite, in whom there is no guile". So it is said, "Philip finds Nathanael, and says to him, We have found him of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth". Rather than speaking roughly, He gave a heavy dose of the truth, but He did not give that same dose to Nicodemus. Nathanael was a quick learner. He says, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Philip says to him, Come and see. Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and says of him, Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". He is very different from Nicodemus. No honours at all are paid to Nicodemus, but there is a great deal paid to Nathanael because he is a quick learner. "An Israelite in whom there is no guile". The Lord does not say that of Nicodemus. Then "Nathanael says to him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". That is to say, he is a quick learner, and the Lord knows that because he quotes from the Psalms, and the Lord further says, "Because I said to thee, I saw thee under the fig-tree, believest thou? Thou shalt see greater things than these. And he says to him, Verily, verily, I say to you, Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man". We can see in Nathanael we have a quick learner which the Lord values. It would seem as though Nathanael became an apostle, although his name is not mentioned. Bartholomew is probably the same person.

C.H.H. Would you think that Nicodemus was never quite purified from associations?

J.T. Just as Jonathan remained as he was in his father's house and died with his father, Nicodemus, you might say, denied the Lord in a sense. You may say that he came out in time. Joseph of Arimathaea came out as the Lord died. I would say that they are a class that come out in the end. The real thing is there and so it was in John's time. It is a sorrowful thing that they are not associated with the Lord until He died. We cannot say how far they went.

S.W.P. The Lord spends much more time with Nicodemus than with Nathanael unfolding what He has in His mind.

J.T. I think the Lord would consider him a man of influence who might, as far as he could go in the council, make some seed be fruitful, because what he says in chapter 7 shows that he was a genuine person and he really suffered: "Art thou also of Galilee? Search and look, that no prophet arises out of Galilee". He is under reproach there and yet he had not left the council. I am sure there are many like that and we must have our eyes open to it.

A.S.B. Is there something in the fact that Nathanael is singled out? The Lord says of him, "An Israelite", but Nicodemus, "The teacher of Israel", is in the system and great responsibility lies with him.

J.T. The Lord would imply in His remarks in that sense that Nicodemus was in His mind and possibly usable to spread the seed of the truth. Any person like that should be. He is what would be called an honest man. Although he was not separate, he is usable to some extent. I think if we follow the line of ministry, the revival, we see that that is exactly what happened. The truth is presented to persons who might take it in and who might spread it, but who did not all come out. Nicodemus was on the right

line, but although very slow he came out in time, and brought an offering of spices.

E.C. Would you say something about the necessity of new birth as the basis for purification?

J.T. That is the thought we had. We have now finished what came up-which was very important -- with regard to Nicodemus and Nathanael, and we have this matter of purification which the Lord does not mention at the first. The Lord's first remark is, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". Now that is not purification. It is the Lord's second remark that unfolds the idea of purification. Nicodemus says, "How can a man be born being old?", showing that he is governed by natural thoughts; yet he has other thoughts which are good. "Can he enter a second time into the womb of his mother and be born?" is a purely natural inquiry which shows how his mind is running, and the Lord answers, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee ...". These 'verilies' are the insertions of special truths. There are about twenty four of them in the whole book. This one is "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit". That is an addition. The Lord is not repeating. He is adding another thought, namely, water. He is adding to the idea of being born. Being born is not so much stressed as the word 'anew'. That is another time. The Lord is stressing that more than the idea of water, but He is stressing water, too.

C.H.H. Is it a continuity of the stone water vessels of purification going right through John?

J.T. There is probably something in that. I think, however, the Lord is opening up a wholly new matter with Nicodemus, and He is bringing in the idea of the water which was for the purification of the Jews. That is being used. That is turned into wine, and, therefore, finished, as it were, that idea. What the

Lord says about the water in verse 5 is, I think, another thing. He has much more on His mind which could be opened up in the earlier chapter which refers to the millennium. Here is what refers to christianity, I would say. "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit"-water is put before the Spirit-"he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". The kingdom of God is not the millennium exactly. It is what is going to take form and would take form in John as christianity.

S.McC. What would you say refers to the millennium?

J.T. The second chapter, "According to the purification of the Jews". They were empty and the Lord says, "Fill the water-vessels with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he says to them, Draw out now", and the result is what typifies Israel in the future, I would say, but this chapter refers to christianity. The Lord has christianity in mind, heavenly things. He is teaching purification here, at once introducing the idea of water in connection with new birth, that you are to be born not only of the Spirit, but of water.

S.McC. Is this being born of water and of Spirit an automatic process consequent upon the new birth, or is it an intelligent moral process in the believer?

J.T. It is an additional thought. It is an application of the idea of new birth because He says, "Except any one be born of water". Notice it is "born of"; 'born of' is not an idea of cleansing, but water is. The water is used in the process of birth the same as the water of the "washing of regeneration". Regeneration is not cleansing by itself, neither is new birth cleansing by itself. The water is additional and is jointly used in the process. It is the cleansing element, the idea of purification inserted basically in the new beginning. It is a new beginning.

G.McP. Does it represent the power of the truth

working in our souls to bring us into the heavenly side of the truth?

J.T. It is too soon to say heavenly. In saying these things the Lord says, "If I have said the earthly things to you". New birth belongs to the earthly. It is an earthly term. We are not born in heaven. We are born on earth. Nor is new birth introducing us into sonship, or even the position of children. It is less than that. We have to be careful in the use of terms, only that the word 'water' is here before the word 'Spirit' in this operation of the Spirit called new birth.

S.McC. The general thought is that new birth has to do with children. Sonship is on the line of gift, but children are in connection with birth.

J.T. This word goes that far. When the word 'children' is used in chapter 1, the idea of this teaching in chapter 3 is included. It is said, "As many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God", John 1:12, 13. Now new birth in chapter 3 is included in that but it does not go so far as the idea of being born of God. I think it is important to bear this in mind, otherwise we lump things, you know, and the Lord does not. He calls this matter in chapter 3 new birth, something that is earthly. He says, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?". Therefore, I remarked that the Lord has not gone on to the heavenly yet, nor to the idea of children. He is dealing basically with both. The idea of children brings us into a new status correlative with sonship but sonship takes us to heaven.

S.W.P. Would this be the basis on which we could receive the testimony in order to become children?

J.T. I think that Nicodemus shows in his history

that he was capable of receiving testimony. In fact, his opening remarks show this; He says, "We know that thou art come a teacher from God". He is very definite about that and he bases it on the signs. He is not an ordinary man and these are men we have to be watchful of and follow them up.

C.H.H. So that the seed of the word in Peter would be in advance of this.

J.T. Exactly. It is in advance of this; it is "The living and abiding word of God".

H.B. It speaks of being called "By glory and virtue". Would the thought of the virtue fit in somewhere in the earlier thought?

J.T. It would fit in the gospel. "Called us by glory and virtue". Peter has a great way of speaking in his epistles of one thing working on another thing and that working still on something else. We are getting the idea of new birth here. Something must flow out of that. The idea of virtue enters into the teaching set before Nicodemus. Nicodemus is himself a virtuous man.

C.DeB. This remark draws him out and causes him to think, not understanding what he was saying.

J.T. He would not get very far if he remained in the council. The council is not great enough for this man and he stayed too long in it.

S.McC. Would you help us on the difference between born of water and of Spirit and begotten of God?

J.T. We have not got so far in this chapter as the term begotten of God which John uses in chapter 2 of his epistle. We have to learn to come to a point, because John has in mind that we are to be learners or disciples and to address the Lord as "Rabbi".

Ques. The word 'born' is mentioned eight times here. Is that the teaching of this?

J.T. That is the thing to keep your eye open for. It is a teaching word and we are in a teaching section

and we are in the presence of the Teacher, the Lord Jesus, the heavenly Teacher, God Himself come down, who teaches, because it says, "And they shall be all taught of God" (John 6:45) and we are also in the presence of a man who is also a teacher, according to man, and there is something to be acknowledged in him. He is the teacher of Israel. The Lord calls him that and He says, You should know these things. It is a matter of importance that we have a man to deal with. Although he is in the council he may be talked to this way. You should know so-and-so. You know the Bible. He appealed to him in that way. So it is a teaching time. It is a teaching section.

C.H.H. Would "born" here go so far as to involve a new personality?

J.T. I do not think it goes so far, because you have got a person, then you have an individuality on new ground, and Nicodemus is not really that yet, because he is still in the council and he is still a teacher in Israel. You could hardly say that to any man in the Roman Catholic Church or Presbyterian. You can hardly go so far as to say that he is the teacher of Israel or of the Jews. He is hardly entitled to such an epithet as that, whereas Nicodemus was. The Lord recognises him as a teacher of Israel.

E.C. Would you say that entering the kingdom of God is a more practical matter than just seeing it? The water and the Spirit are required for purification to enter.

J.T. We have just got to that point. The Lord's first remark is plain enough: "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". Then the next answer is "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". Well now, did Nicodemus do that? Did he ever move, because the word 'enter' means movement; seeing does not except in the eye. Did he come into the kingdom when he put

the Lord in the tomb? What did he have in his mind when he put the Lord in the tomb? He did all honours to the Lord as far as you could speak of honours in burial, but the Lord is going to rise in three days, as He had already said, and Nicodemus, even in chapter 19, did not seem to know that. Therefore, did he really enter into the kingdom? We have to come to what happened in Nicodemus. He remained in the council.

E.C. We have to understand the bearing of the water on purification before we can enter?

J.T. Yes, whether we made a movement in that respect. He should have left the council and joined the disciples. The Lord says to them, "He that is washed all over needs not to wash save his feet". Could that be said to Nicodemus? I do not think so.

Not yet. He was not washed all over.

G.McP. Would it suggest the truth of baptism? I was thinking of what was said to Paul, "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away".

J.T. That is another thing, washing away your sins. It is important to bring that in here because it would show that he was very like Nicodemus in that sense; he was tarrying, he was not going the whole way in Damascus, but he was going faster than Nicodemus, but he was not going fast enough for Ananias. He says, "Arise ... and have thy sins washed away", as much as to say, 'You are not going fast enough'.

Ques. Would this be one who would see the kingdom? He says there, "We know that thou art come a teacher from God". Did he see the kingdom of God?

J.T. I should not like to say that he did. He stayed in the Jewish system. He had no exercise as far as we can see, although he spoke nicely about the Lord, but then he is not leaving. The point is that the time had come for leaving, to be a disciple of

Jesus, and Nicodemus was not moving in relation to that because he did not leave the system that he was in.

Ques. You would say that he was born anew?

J.T. We said that in the beginning. He is not moving in relation to it.

S.W.P. Your thought of purification is primarily to be clear of what is accredited as religious.

J.T. You mean that purification implies that you can move? That is what Paul understood when Ananias said, "And now why lingerest thou? Arise".

Nicodemus was very slow. Paul was not just so slow, but he was too slow for Ananias. There are many tarrying today. They come just so far, and no further.

Ananias says to Paul, 'You are too slow. You should be a disciple and wash away your sins'. "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away", because that is a symbol of what we are talking about, the purification of the Jewish system.

Rem. His sins were more ecclesiastical.

J.T. Just so. He was not a thief or robber. He was an ecclesiastical sinner.

W.L. I was wondering if what you have in mind is in line with 2 Timothy, "If therefore one shall have purified himself from these, in separating himself from them, he shall be a vessel ... serviceable to the Master", 2 Timothy 2:21.

J.T. That is the idea that we are at now. That requires separation and Nicodemus was not ready for that. Ananias is pointing that out to Saul: "And now why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away", meaning that you become a disciple of Jesus and no longer a Jewish disciple.

J.W.B. So that in Revelation 22 it says, "Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have right to the tree of life, and that they should go in by the gates into the city". The movement is there, is it not?

J.T. We come to that later. We touch on all these things, to bring the whole thing, that is, the full thought of entering, not into fellowship only, but into the city, partaking of the tree of life, showing that it is a real thing there.

J.W.B. I was thinking of the movement.

J.T. Exactly. That is the thing to look for in any man we meet. Not simply what he says, but what movement is there with him? That is the reason the Lord uses the word 'water' in the second answer.

F.F. Would the form of water be something?

J.T. Yes, it is. It is the water of purification.

Ques. Are you suggesting that we should be on the look-out for such persons?

J.T. There are many of them. You cannot go very far with them. The Lord did not go very far with Nicodemus. He immediately went on with heavenly things. He implied to Nicodemus that 'You really do not believe what I am saying', but still he was born anew as the sequel shows. We cannot spend too much time with them. Apparently when the test comes they do not go all the way.

C.H.H. This water is not to be repeated? It is once and for all?

J.T. That is what the Lord says in chapter 13 "He that is washed all over". I do not think that Nicodemus was ready to be washed all over.

Ques. What would be looked for in our children to show that being born of water and the Spirit was taking place?

J.T. You have the whole thought before you. You have not anything less in baptising than that they should be clear of the world. Alas! They go in for the world. You have the whole thought before you. The Lord had whole thoughts here, but Nicodemus did not. He was holding back.

J.K. It says of Nicodemus that he knew He was come from God and that God was with Him. The

thought in verse 7 is that it is needful that movement should take place, not just knowing.

J.T. It says, "It is needful that ye should be born anew", meaning that the Pharisees or Israelites needed this. This second time that the Lord uses these words would mean that water is included in the word 'born anew'.

A.S.B. Is there something in the fact that Nicodemus initially recognises the Lord as teacher, Rabbi, but he does not travel very far in regard to seeing the kingdom? He sees the Lord personally as the Teacher, but he fails to recognise the fulness of the system of the kingdom of God.

J.T. Well, that is it. He was not ready for whole thoughts. "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him". They had whole thoughts. Nicodemus was not among them. He was not ready for that. That is in the second chapter. The time of discipleship had come and Nicodemus was not ready for it. Thousands are not ready for it. They are ready to read our writings but they are not leaving the place where they are. They are not leaving the council, as it were. That is the real test that we have. How far can you go in talking with a man like that? The question is how far is he ready to go with you.

C.H.H. Would following up the current ministry be the secret?

J.T. Therefore, the Lord challenges Nicodemus as to the Old Testament, saying as it were, What scripture are you studying? Where have you been brought up, in a seminary or college? You ought to know these things. You appeal to them on those lines as far as you can, all with a view to their moving, because the second answer of the Lord here is that he enters, and that is not the Presbyterian Church. He enters the kingdom of God; if he does not, what point is there in talking any more?

S.McC. Would you say something about the water and the Spirit, the difference between the two? Born of water seems to be a positive element: "Born of water and of Spirit".

J.T. I think it is a positive element, but it is not in itself positive. The positive thing is in the word 'birth' or regeneration, and therefore the Spirit given to him is not suggested here. In Titus we have, "Which he poured out on us richly". We have to wait for that until next time-this matter of the Spirit poured out. The Lord does not hint at that really, although we do get it in the passage in Ezekiel that we read: "I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you", but then the next word is, "I will put my Spirit within you". John 3 does not allude to that in the instruction. The Lord does not mean to convey that one who has gone so far as new birth gets the Holy Spirit, because the blood has to be brought in afterward, and, therefore, the whole truth of the gospel must be brought in so as to set a man up in christianity.

S.McC. In a spiritual way, what does the water convey to your mind?

J.T. A negative way, what has cleansed the person in the making, you or me. I have got to be cleansed, or you. The water means that. It is negative. The positive thing remains.

S.McC. I think it is helpful, because some have tried to put into it the idea of the word.

J.T. We must learn to stop, because we are, so to say, learning scientifically. We must learn to stop at certain points and be clear about all up to that before you proceed further. The word in Titus is, "Which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour", but the Lord does not touch that here. He does not touch the idea of giving the Spirit yet. It is what the Spirit does. The Spirit is connected with both, the actual birth which is positive, and the water

which is a negative idea, because the positive thing is being cleansed. That is what is meant. Water is basic because we have got to maintain that cleansing.

G.McP. Does "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit", suggest the Spirit connected with water?

J.T. The first word is the Holy Spirit, but the second which is written with a small 's' means that the thing is spirit. It means that the thing taking place in him is spirit. He gives it a name, just spirit, not flesh. What we are speaking of requires the brethren to be teachable, to be pupils, to get things, you know. What do these words mean? Why does the Lord use one word that has to be spelt with the capital? He is speaking about the Holy Spirit. He is speaking of Him as an Operator, whereas the result of the operation is the thing called spirit.

G.McP. Ezekiel 36 speaks of a "new spirit" and in verse 27 "my Spirit": "I will put my Spirit within you".

J.T. You do not get that in John 3. The Lord does not go so far as that in John 3.

Ques. Is John 3 more the classroom, getting the thing?

J.T. That is what it is. If the brethren would only learn to stay there and learn that. That is what?

He is stopping short of the gift of the Spirit. He wants to insert the idea of the positive work by the Spirit in us which He calls spirit, and then He adds to that the idea of cleansing, the process, or element and that is the whole thought as far as He goes. He does not say that we are to have the Spirit as a gift in this passage so far.

A.L. Does a sense of this challenge us as to whether we have the Spirit?

J.T. There is time enough to say something about that as the apostle Paul said to the Ephesians, "Did

ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?". He does not say, 'Have you been born again?'. We have not come to that yet in our passage, but the Lord alludes to it in Ezekiel 36. It says, first of all, "I will give you a new heart", that is the new birth, "and I will put a new spirit within you". That is the spirit, your own spirit, the kind of spirit you get, and then He says, "I will put my Spirit within you" that is the gift of the Holy Spirit, but the Lord does not reach that point in John 3.

A.S.B. Your reference to the scientific side is rather interesting because in that line we have to do with what is basic. You used the word at the outset as though in relation to Nicodemus there are apparently two systems, the system connected with God which he recognises in the Lord, and the system of Israel; does not the principle of analysis enter into this section, determining what is basic?

J.T. Yes, and there is the general idea of God. Nicodemus, as it were, is as pronounced about it as the Lord would be. "Thou art come a teacher from God", but then there was teaching about God that he did not believe. We can go so far with the man, that he believed God and that he believes in Him, and we do, too, but there are things he cannot admit, that he is not ready for, and I believe that that is why we should learn to be pupils or disciples in order to get the things as in a classroom and get them by terms, see what the term means, so that when Paul came to Ephesus he did not speak about new birth because they were disciples anyway. They did not need to be born again. They were John's disciples, but they needed to be taught about the Holy Spirit as a gift. Therefore, he says, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?". That is what we have to come to, to learn things, and discriminate between them.

C.H.H. Would it lead you to the conclusions

arrived at in Romans 7, the flesh and the inward man? Would it lead as far as that?

J.T. I think it would. We begin to learn anyway the difference between flesh and spirit because you have all these things to call upon, all that is within you to praise God, but then you must label them and be sure you do not call on something that is corrupt or impure; it is pure things you call on and you have to label things and call them by their right names and that is what is being touched on here. Nicodemus, if he were only ready, would have got much more from the Lord than he did. The Lord named something and He named it new birth and He named the water included in it.

J.W.B. The woman in chapter 4 gets more, does she not?

J.T. Yes, because she was ready.

J.W.B. I was thinking about the word 'spirit' (chapter 4:24). The small 's' is used there.

J.T. She gets nothing about new birth, but she gets about the gift of the Spirit, the well of water springing up, which is important to bear in mind. She is further on than Nicodemus. She gets more than he does. So that the passage in Ezekiel distinguishes first the water as clean water, that they should be clean. "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your uncleannesses and from all your idols will I cleanse you". Then in verse 26, "And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh". We have to understand this. The word 'flesh' here is something that is impression able-a heart of flesh and not of stone. That is, the christian is impressionable. I do not think Nicodemus was to any great extent, but I think the woman of Sychar was impressionable. She got more. "And I

will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and keep mine ordinances". That is the next thing. I thought we might add that, that we might carry something with us at the end of this meeting in the way of a lesson, what the Lord is teaching Nicodemus here.

PURIFICATION (2)

Titus 1:12 - 16; Titus 3:1 - 7

J.T. It is thought that consideration of the persons and the circumstances in the scriptures we have looked into and are going to look into now and later will give help as to the understanding of them. We have had Nicodemus before us, also Nathanael. These persons are presented in the Scriptures regarding the truth before us; that is, new birth. And we should also remark that John's writings were before us this morning, John's gospel in which our subject is particularly found. Now we have Paul and Titus and the Cretans, the inhabitants of Crete. These later circumstances direct our minds to a somewhat lower state of human society as seen identified with them. Timothy is seen identified with what we may call the upper classes at Ephesus, presenting the higher features of the truth. He was left, we are told, at Ephesus. And our subject was touched on in that connection as pointing out that instead of new birth Paul referred to the reception of the Spirit. Instead of the operations of the Spirit, he referred to the Spirit Himself, the gift of God to be received. The truth in that way becomes somewhat elucidated for us, if our minds are involved in the ministry as the subjects also of the ministry. In Titus, however, we have the lower strata of humanity with a peculiar characteristic, for they are said to be always liars: "Cretans are always liars, evil wild beasts, lazy gluttons". And in connection with this statement we have, "All things are pure to the pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure". Their minds and consciences are defiled. Then we have to discriminate, as we were saying this morning, with regard to the characteristics of the persons that we have to deal with, in seeking to serve.

The need of purification is especially in mind in the epistle to Titus, for his ministry tells us in chapter 3 what we might call the modus operandi of salvation "But when the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God appeared, not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness which we had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour"; for the gospel is in mind in the epistle, the whole thoughts of the gospel. Full thoughts are in mind. No question now of new birth but of what is needed for salvation. So what lies alongside the truth of salvation which is in mind, is the idea of eternal life, as an adjunct to what we are saved by. It involves eternal life, not that eternal life is presented here in the epistle as we hope to look into in the next reading, in what it is in itself essentially, but as part of the gospel. And it is therefore the elements of the glad tidings which are in mind in Titus. So it is said, "But when the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God appeared, not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness which we had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". So that in reading these sections the hope is that we may learn, in what may come before us, the truth of the gospel involving the need of purification and purity.

Ques. Verse 13 reads, "This testimony is true". Is that the thought in relation to teaching how conditions are such as needing this line of ministry?

J.T. The testimony he alludes to is what a prophet of their own said: "Cretans are always liars, evil wild beasts, lazy gluttons". So that evidently in seeking to

serve men, we have got to pay attention to what is public historically and what characterises them in their various sections. For instance, the Cretans are said to be liars here. The Galatians were fickle, uncertain, changeable. The Corinthians, on the other hand, were loose and worldly, instructed people but using their intelligence to penetrate the depths of wickedness. So that we have to learn as in the world what the world affords in the way of information, what history affords in the way of people, that the gospel meets every condition, but each condition has been located and observed.

S.McC. In line with what you are saying it is important to have a right judgment of things where we are, understanding the conditions that prevail, taking account of them and seeking to be saved from them. Do you have that in mind?

J.T. Yes, I thought of that. For instance, this city is a great industrial city. We have in Acts 4:27 the idea of "this city", whatever it may be, the one we are in, for instance, whatever the characteristics are, because we have to meet them, not only in the preaching of the gospel but in the ministry of the truth regularly amongst ourselves, because we have these conditions to contend with.

H.B. Is that seen in the Acts in relation to the Bereans? "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, receiving the word with all readiness of mind, daily searching the scriptures if these things were so", Acts 17:11.

J.T. Yes, very good. What is to be particularly kept in mind is the gospel, which Titus was to keep in mind too. In the chapter we had in John this morning we sought to confine it to just the facts presented, as to what the Lord calls "earthly things". He had in mind, however, to speak of heavenly things and to leave Nicodemus. He is part of the personnel, no doubt, but is left. The Lord launches out to

wider territory in the reference to Numbers 21, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". That is, He goes along and leaves Nicodemus, and proceeds into the full truth of eternal life; we find the same thing in this epistle. We find eternal life. "Paul, bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of God's elect, and knowledge of the truth which is according to piety; in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time, but has manifested in its own due season his word, in the proclamation with which I have been entrusted, according to the commandment of our Saviour God", Titus 1:1 - 3. Now then there are these verses in chapter 3, "Having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". Now it seems to me that we should clearly have in mind the distinction that is to be made between this epistle and John 3. They are linked together very closely, but in John 3 the Lord confines Himself after new birth to the subject of eternal life and its fulness in the gift of eternal life, that God so loved that He gave it. Whereas here eternal life is to augment the great truth of the gospel generally, of what is needed at Crete for salvation to these people that are characterised, as we have already seen, with the lying disposition and other features that go with that, sort of underworld conditions, the conditions of large cities such as this. The low conditions of large cities were to be known in order to be free from these conditions, and purity is essential. That is the whole idea of the gospel. It presents God's thoughts meeting the conditions, eternal life being included.

C.H.H. Do you think that eternal life as presented in John's writings brings you into the realm of attributed love, whereas eternal life in this epistle is in

view of being in the good of deliverance and salvation?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking. It is part of the gospel, but in a limited way, not rising to the full thought of eternal life and its heavenly relations.

S.McC. Say a little more about eternal fife in connection with its heavenly relations. What do you mean Ly it?

J.T. The Lord says to Nicodemus, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?". And then He goes on, "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". The Lord rises in His speaking from the level of the earth. Now in the millennial world the thought of eternal life will be largely linked up with the earth, but in christianity, which John's gospel touches very quickly, the idea is elevated from earthly things and linked with heavenly things.

C.H.H. In John 4 the thought is the springing up into eternal life.

J.T. That shows that it is an elevated thought; whereas in the conditions contemplated in the epistle to Titus it is rather what you have to do with directly in a collateral way. It is not a heavenly line but what belongs to the gospel. Believers need eternal fife for deliverance from the conditions in which they are found.

S.McC. What you have said as to eternal life gives a touch to it that we have not had before. It has generally been suggested that sonship is linked with

heaven, and eternal life with the earth, whereas you are giving it a heavenly touch in the ministry now.

J.T. I think it is right to do that because we are not really dealing with the millennial world yet in John. John 2 deals with it. The marriage at Cana of Galilee has it in mind and there the Lord begins to manifest His glory. "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him", John 2:11. What is the relation? The relation is christianity, what we come into, what eternal fife is in relation to christianity. Another thing that we ought to notice is that the minister here is a deputy. Titus is a deputy minister. The ministry is not his. It is Paul's. He says, "Eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time, but has manifested in its own due season his word, in the proclamation with which I have been entrusted, according to the commandment of our Saviour God". That is, Titus is just a deputy, an apostolic appointee for carrying out his orders. I do not know if that is very clear to the brethren, but it is a fact nevertheless that both Timothy and Titus were apostolic deputies. They are not commissioned men. We have to learn to make allowance for that and learn in a way to carry on such a ministry; that is, that we have not a commission. We do not say we have a commission, but still we have the truth and it is going to be carried out. It is to be kept and preached and taught.

A.S.B. Does verse 5 confirm that-"For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou mightest go on to set right what remained unordered, and establish elders in each city, as I had ordered thee". Establish them -- delegated authority.

J.T. That is important. I do not suppose we know anything about that in any personal sense today, but it is important to keep it in mind as an element of truth that there is such a thing as that.

C.H.H. Would that be continued in 2 Timothy 2:1, 2? "Thou therefore, my child, be strong in the grace which is in Christ Jesus. And the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also".

J.T. The ministry is carried down to us on that same principle. It has often been called attention to that four generations are involved in this deputy ministry. "The things thou hast heard of me" Paul is number one; Timothy is number two. "Many witnesses" are number three. And then faithful men are number four: "Faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also". So you see the line of transmission from Paul down to the persons who can instruct others also. So that it is something we ought to observe and profit by. Where are we in these matters? Are we in the latitude of Timothy himself, or in the presence of witnesses of what Timothy learned, or faithful men, or the others who are instructed?

S.McC. In regard of the ministry, is the authority in the ministry discerned on the basis of Scripture, or how is it discerned?

J.T. Well, it is what may be called oral services. It is not writing. Timotheus had learned them from Paul. He says, "In the presence of many witnesses". That is, this would all bear back on Timothy, what he learned from Paul and then, "These entrust to faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also". There is nothing said about writings but, of course, we would bring writings in now, but it seems as if the idea is of a personal transmission of the truth from Paul down, as if the middle ages and all that is simply omitted, because those in public authority and responsibility had departed from the truth. So we have to watch the thing working out, how the line of witnesses has come down to us and how faithful we

are at this end, the end which finishes the thing.

S.W.P. Why does Paul add competency to faithful men, "Such as shall be competent"?

J.T. That is important, too. It came into our minds this morning, the thought of competency. We read in 1 Corinthians 12:28, "God has set certain in the assembly: first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers; then miraculous powers; then gifts of healings; helps; governments; kinds of tongues". And Titus implies competency. Evangelists are not mentioned in Corinthians but apostles and prophets and then others such as those who can govern and other such things as that. But all these titles such as this, as well as those in Ephesians 4, involve competency. If I ask a brother to preach, is he competent? And that competency must be of God. The idea of the ministry is on the basis of competency. Timothy was competent. Of course gifts were given to them by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. He not only received the light of Paul's doctrine but he had himself direct gift from God and it was through the presbytery or by the episcopacy. Either the one or the other. The words 'episcopacy' and 'presbyterianism' really relate to competency, a means of imparting or passing on gift. The Episcopal church have in their minds that a bishop can pass on gift to a curate and others, whereas the Presbyterian Church have a committee, a special group, known as the presbytery, who pass it on. That is, Paul himself passed on gift. He reminds Timothy of it, "For which cause I put thee in mind to rekindle the gift of God which is in thee by the putting on of my hands",

2 Timothy 1:6. All that brings out what we are as in the midst of a living state of things that directly has to do with God.

C.H.H. Would there be a present bearing of that in the thought of the brethren committing themselves to any one? Would the laying on of the hands of the

presbytery have a present bearing in that way?

J.T. No, I think that times are too small for that. The presbytery would be just the elders, you know, and God had put moral responsibility on the elders as to their hands laid on a brother like Timotheus. God would use that, their identification, to give him some thing that he needed for a special purpose. I do not know what you have to say about that.

C.H.H. I was wondering if competency would come out in those who are spiritual today in committing themselves definitely to those who might serve.

J.T. I would be afraid of that. Take Barnabas and Saul at Antioch: the Spirit says to the assembly there-we cannot tell how He said it, it must have been through some brother-"Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", Acts 13:2. That was all they were asked to do, to separate. This incident at Antioch is helpful; they were not asked to do anything to these two brothers save to separate them for the work, so they laid their hands upon them and let them go. You cannot say anything more. There is nothing inferred as to whether there was any transmission of power to Paul and Barnabas. I do not think there was. But the presbytery did transmit power. I think it would be very unsafe for any brethren today to undertake anything like that now, or even the calling of the elders to pray over a sick person, anointing him with oil; you would be very much afraid. Unless you have a particularly spiritual set of brethren, there is great danger in anything like that. I hope I am not speaking riddles to people, but it is important that we should know these things.

Ques. In 2 Chronicles 15:3 it is said, "Now for a long while Israel was without the true God, and without a teaching priest, and without law". The whole condition there was bad. "And when Asa heard these words and the prophecy of Oded the prophet,

he took courage". Would there be some analogy as to the way things are done today in a priestly way?

J.T. It expresses the value of spiritual persons or spiritual brethren. For instance, "If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted". The stress is on the word 'spiritual', that spiritual persons have a certain power in such a case to restore an erring brother or sister, but nothing more than that; whereas James says, "Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he be one who has committed sins, it shall be forgiven him", James 5:14, 15. That would suppose a primary state of things where elders were recognised as in this epistle and he would call them and they lay hands on him and pray for him and anoint him with oil, and it says, "the prayer of faith shall heal the sick", but it is in that connection.

A.S.B. I think your reference to Acts 13 is very helpful because of the engagement of the brethren in ministering to the Lord and fasting, and the Spirit having His place. What to do is not by commandment. It is more by instinct under the power of the Spirit, and then "They therefore, having been sent forth by the Holy Spirit" are in full accord with the Spirit's movements.

J.T. So the brethren at Antioch had no right, nor power, nor authority over the two apostles, Paul and Barnabas, to control their movements. It is a mistake for brethren to control, or attempt to control, ministering brethren.

C.H.H. Would "Trophimus I left behind in Miletus sick" (2 Timothy 4:20) imply that the condition that had come in would weaken the position as to elders?

J.T. It would seem as though nothing was done to help Trophimus. He was just left with God. It is a remarkable thing. Why did not Paul himself do it? He would not attempt to do it. He left him with God. It would indicate that there was some condition that would hinder.

G.McP. Does Paul have that in mind as speaking to the elders in Acts 20? He says, "And now I commit you to God, and to the word of his grace". He would link their souls directly with God.

J.T. Quite so. You mean Paul commended the elders to God? There is no idea of transmission of power in that chapter at all. It is a question of the elders at Ephesus and they are responsible and they are apt to stray, some of them. The whole position is put on that footing so that you feel you are dealing there with Paul's great work, his final work. Ephesus was a final great work and Christianity was set going in that way and left, commended to God and His grace and then Paul departs. That is the condition at Ephesus. So in Revelation, Ephesus is viewed as the summit of christianity and is the first assembly referred to.

H.B. I would like some help as to the Lord's word to Saul of Tarsus, "Rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". How far would that go today?

J.T. Well, it is a very simple matter. The Lord is telling Saul, or Paul, that He has some representation in Damascus, and they are not persons of great distinction, but persons who are just there in Damascus. He direct him to the city to a few men in it. He would as it were humble Paul, I think, like Naaman, the Syrian, for Elisha did not do anything very great. Naaman says, "Behold, I thought, He will certainly come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of Jehovah his God, and wave his hand over the place, and cure the leper", 2 Kings 5:11. I think servants

need to begin that way, that inconspicuous brothers in the name of the Lord are to do the needful. "It shall be told thee what thou must do". The Lord had to prepare Ananias for the service. He had to prepare him immediately. He needed a little replenishing himself to do the needful for Paul, the young convert.

T.L.S. Elisha called one of the young prophets and told him to go and anoint Jehu, and so on. Does that enter into what we are speaking of now?

J.T. Yes. Elijah was to anoint Hazael, Jehu and Elisha. He was to anoint three persons, meaning that the coming generations were to be on the basis of anointing through Elisha honouring Elijah. I do not think we are ever allowed to be in a sort of static condition. Brethren are always being moved. There is someone to be distinguished and we are to be in movement in regard to him, respect him and God is with us.

T.L.S. In connection with the matter of Titus and that it is Paul's ministry, we would hardly say that Titus was passing on something second-hand, would we?

J.T. Well, there is a difference between Paul and Titus, but there is no such difference between Paul and Apollos. Apollos was not a delegate at all but Titus and Timothy have that peculiar place and it carries with it something in the way of what you call 'second-hand' work. For instance, Paul sent Timothy to Corinth. There was no assumption of Timothy's having any special ministry because of it. He was not to go there and give out what he liked but he was to go there and represent Paul. Paul says, "For this reason I have sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ, according as I teach everywhere in every assembly". It is not Timothy's ways, but Paul's ways. All these things are most important to bring out what Christianity

really means, how we are always to be on the move. Here is Timotheus. What is going to happen? Where is Apollos? He is not here. Timothy is here to represent Paul; therefore, the Corinthians are somewhat on low ground at that time.

C.H.H. The disciples would have that thought in their minds, when the Lord told them, after they had done certain things, that they were unprofitable servants and had done what was their duty to do.

Ques. What would you say about Paul's desire to go to Rome? "Having great desire to come to you these many years", Romans 15:23.

J.T. He would do that himself. He had not gone as yet. He had not been to Rome. He wished to go and as a matter of fact he became a prisoner, but we may be sure that a gift was imparted. When Phoebe went to Rome she would convey something of Paul. She no doubt brought a letter to them and they would read that letter doubtless in her presence and she would be there; she is highly commended. She would be highly exercised as the letter was being read. Why should I be singled out thus? Well, it was an honour and she would doubtless impart something to the Romans as a sister. It is a poor thing if any of us does not impart something.

Rem. "I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase. So that neither the planter is anything, nor the waterer; but God the giver of the increase. But the planter and the waterer are one", 1 Corinthians 3:6 - 8. That indicates that Apollos was not delegated; it bears that out.

J.T. No, and he would not go to Corinth at one time; it was not his mind to go, showing that he was not like Titus or Timothy.

Now in Titus 3:4 we read, "But when the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God appeared, not on the principle of works which have been done

in righteousness which we had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". Now we began this time to call attention to the fact that what was said about new birth in John 3 was not a full thought. The first refers to what would enable a person to see the kingdom, and the second statement of the Lord's would enable a person to enter into the kingdom. It is only the entering in. It is not the full thought of possessing or enjoying the full kingdom. It is partial. We make a point of that but in this chapter we have complete thoughts. The truth here runs on to the Spirit: "Renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". It is the modus operandi of the gospel as stated here in full terms. And the great thought is what is poured out on us richly, and then the result "That, having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". It is a question of the modus operandi of the gospel, whoever might preach it-Paul in this case-and the result that one is saved. The terms of salvation are employed and eternal life is included.

S.McC. Would the thought of regeneration help as to Nicodemus? He did not seem to leave the old state of things, whereas regeneration involves a new state of things.

J.T. Quite so. It is really a new order as the note shows. The note is, '"Regeneration" is not the same word as "being born again", nor is it used so in scripture. The force of the word is a change of position; a new state of things. The word is only used here, and in Matthew 19:28 for the Saviour's coming kingdom'. Here it is used in relation to christianity. It is used in Matthew 19:28 as a change of position in a sense of the millennium: "In the

regeneration", the Lord says, such-and-such will happen. Well, that is the millennium but here the regeneration is connected with christianity, a complete changeover from judaism and particularly from heathendom.

Ques. Does the "washing of regeneration" involve experience or is it an immediate matter?

J.T. It is attributed to God. It takes place, you might say, simultaneously with regeneration, although they are two thoughts. The word for washing is a bath. You have the washing, and there is plenty of water. It is just a bath in water to wash yourself but it is God that does it. Regeneration is a positive thing and it denotes your coming into a new state of things. For instance, if immigrants came from Bohemia to this country in the old times, consideration would be given to their fives, the other countries, and the low conditions that existed. They would get citizenship. They would get education. It would be a point that their children had to go to school. Everything must be right, so to speak, and in keeping with the Constitution. The immigrant would be herded into a position down at Ellis Island, as we used to call it, and then they would be allotted something else a step higher and the idea would be that they had to be purified from the old conditions. You must not live in this country in these conditions. It is a weak illustration but it is the truth. I know well enough how it is worked out. You must be educated to the conditions of this country and live accordingly. The idea is that it is a new order of things. The Americans like a new world to live in these days. And that is what christianity is, a new world. Regeneration alludes to that. It is not new birth. It is a new order of things and you must come into that. You must learn to be in it and be in the good of it.

Rem. The "evil wild beasts" would be changed entirely by the renewal of the Holy Spirit. They were

characterised by being always liars and lazy gluttons, but now conditions would be entirely changed in their character and the Jewish mind and judaism that was prevailing in Crete would be discontinued and christianity entered into.

J.T. Quite so. He pictured christians just as the immigrants came into things here. In the second verse he says, "To speak evil of no one, not to be contentious, to be mild, shewing all meekness". This is the education they are coming into. "For we were once ourselves also without intelligence". That is the natural man. And we ourselves are in this this afternoon. We have to come into a new order of things spiritually, so that it says, "For we were once ourselves also without intelligence, disobedient, wandering in error, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But when the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God appeared, not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness which we had done, but according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". Well, now that is what everyone here today can say: that we are changed, that the washing has changed us. But regeneration, that is the schooling, the education-I am using a symbol-that this country affords fits us for a new order of things, that we know how to live in this great and rich country as people call it, know how to live in this new order of things. That is exactly what christianity is.

Ques. How does the pouring out of the Holy Spirit fit in here?

J.T. The pouring out of the Holy Spirit abundantly is a full thought. It is a greater thought than the millennial regeneration. They will not be indwelt by the Spirit but we are, as we have in Romans 5:5,

"because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us".

C.H.H. Would the education be anything like that of the woman in John 4 who left her waterpot?

J.T. Yes, after she left the waterpot. The waterpot was the whole thing. That was the drudgery she was in. That is what she was herself. It is a good illustration of the way into the new order of things. We are introduced into it by the washing. The washing is distinct from regeneration but both thoughts run together in it.

G.McP. Do you see that in Acts 10:47? "Can any one forbid water that these should not be baptised, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did?". I was wondering if Cornelius would come into this principle of regeneration.

J.T. Well, there it is. We have to regard him not as an ordinary heathen because he was already in touch with God. He prayed and gave alms and certain other things were said about him but still he had to come into the Spirit's realm, as it were. But the Spirit is shed abroad immediately as Peter is unfolding these things to the company.

A.S.B. In Titus 3, would verse 3 be the thought of degeneration, and regeneration would stand over against that?

J.T. Very good. So the word 'regeneration', as has already been noted in J.N.D.'s footnote, points out a new order of things that we have come into.

C.DeB. What is meant by "the kindness ... of our Saviour God"?

J.T. The footnote gives the word as meaning 'philanthropy'. It is used of God. The philanthropy of God. The word 'philanthropy' is well known in the world. It is used here to show what the terms of the gospel convey, how rich they are, how magnificent they are and what they bring us into.

Ques. Would you say a little about the idea of heirship? You have alluded to ourselves in the negative sense, but it says, "We should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life".

J.T. That is another thing. There is no probate tax on our property. The taxes are going to be very heavy on property here, but there is no tax on this. It is the richness of the thing and the bounty of it and the freedom of it that is unimpaired. We come into an inheritance that is entirely free. There is no mortgage on it. This country is highly mortgaged. The generations for long enough are mortgaged whereas in these words, we are "heirs according to the hope of eternal life"; there is no mortgage on that. We are clear as risen from the dead unto eternal life.

Rem. "Poured out on us richly". That is the idea, is it not? Whereas taxation is being poured on us every minute.

J.T. It is to understand that in the new order of things in Christianity there are no taxes. Everything is free, abundantly free.

J.W.B. "If I open not to you the windows of the heavens, and pour you out a blessing, till there be no place for it", Malachi 3:10. How does that fit in there in regard to the pouring out here, the pouring out of the blessing there?

J.T. Well, the terms are mentioned that the tithes are brought into the storehouse. "Bring the whole tithe into the treasure-house, that there may be food in my house, and prove me now herewith, saith Jehovah of hosts, if I open not to you the windows of the heavens, and pour you out a blessing, till there be no place for it". It is something like this, but there is no idea of a tithe here. The word is really 'the philanthropy of God'. That is the word in verse 4. Philanthropy does not imply any taxes at all. The thing is given outright. What you do is given outright and liberally. Well, that time had come, Paul

says, and it was not on the principle of works, but "According to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". This is the principle. We were considering this morning the operations of the Spirit and only in a limited way. There is nothing said about Himself as being a gift to the believer. "The renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". It is the richness of it, the magnificence of it that is in mind. It is not tainted in any way and the hope is eternal life.

G.McP. Would Acts z help us? "And there came suddenly a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting". And then in verse 4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit".

J.T. This is very much like Pentecost. The gentiles come into it in Acts 10 when Peter opens the way. Peter is reminded of that when he sees what happens because he was preaching when that happened.

S.McC. What is meant by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I think that is what is involved in the new order of things which they were brought into. I think it is the newness and freshness and vigour and power marking the incoming of the Spirit falling on the gentile believers. I think that is what is meant. Peter was amazed at what he saw, because he was preaching while it happened and he was reminded of what happened at Pentecost. The word 'renewal' is strong. Acts 2 enlarges on what happened, the rich breathing that was heard. It was breathing and the whole house is filled with the sound of the breathing, as if the very depths of God were involved in the gift.

The depths of God were in the idea of breathing. As the note says it is not 'wind' exactly, but it is 'breath', the thought of divine Persons breathing. The Lord breathed into the disciples. The thing is conveyed in its greatness and essence. It is Pentecost that is reserved for that.

Ques. Does the word 'holy' link on with the word 'purification'?

J.T. That is just it. The whole epistle to Titus stresses the thought of purification. "All things are pure to the pure". That is to say that divine purity brought about by this transaction creates a condition in men and women that forbids the occupation with impure things. There are things that are pure and are to be regarded as pure and to be spoken of without fear or thought of indecency. God has made them pure. "All things are pure to the pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving", that is an unregenerate person, "nothing is pure". Even the pure things which a christian deals with are not pure to them. They are impure in their very mouths. The very words that they use are impure to them. They cannot be otherwise.

C.H.H. "But the wisdom from above first is pure", James 3:17.

J.T. That fits here.

A.S.B. In Acts 2 Peter says, "And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your elders shall dream dreams; yea, even upon my bondmen and upon my bondwomen in those days will I pour out of my Spirit, and they shall prophesy". God claims them in that way.

J.T. Well, what a rich pouring out in the millennium that will be! It is brought in here, but it does not go the whole way. What goes farther is what is

stated in the beginning of Acts 2, the breathing of God. Then Peter is reminded of it by what he saw at Cornelius' house. So that he immediately commands baptism. He commands it.

J.McK. Why is it justified by His grace and saved according to His mercy? What would you say the grace of God operating testifies?

J.T. You are asking the difference between the word mercy and grace? Mercy is a sovereign thought. "According to his own mercy he saved us". Ephesians says, "Being rich in mercy". Here it is "His own mercy": "According to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, having been justified by his grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". It is all governed by the idea of mercy. "Justified by his grace", that is, God graciously justifies us. The idea of grace surmounts evil, overcomes evil so that the subject is made righteous. God makes it righteous. Not only forgiven, but justified, made fit for the new order. Nothing can be laid to our charge. It is to bring out what christianity is. There is no charge to be laid at our doors at all. We are justified.

What a people we are! God would have us to glory in what His mercy has made us and how grace rises above our guilt and justifies us. "We should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life". Heirship goes with it. We know from another scripture that the Spirit is the earnest of the inheritance, that is to say, eternal life is available to us on the principle of the Spirit, the earnest of the Spirit.

C.H.H. In Titus 2:13 we have "Our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ". In Titus 3:6 we have "Jesus Christ our Saviour", then in verse 4 there is a difference-it is "Our Saviour God".

J.T. Generally it is the word 'Saviour'. It is a question of salvation in this epistle, that is, God being a Saviour. Eternal life is only an adjunct to the great idea of salvation. "Awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ". That is to say, Jesus Christ is the great God and Saviour, which is a great tribute to the Lord.

PURIFICATION (3)

1 John 5:6 - 15

J.T. The truth concerning eternal life has been before us in our readings so far but only in a secondary way, whereas this section of scripture treats of it in the absolute; in one sense it treats of it as a finished matter, a finished subject. The passage reads, "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one". So we see by this introduction that the matter is treated in a full or absolute sense. The immediate means of reaching eternal life has been stated. It would be the water and blood, all that came by water and blood. The Lord had it in mind in becoming man, as it were, basically, so that it was the prime thought in His mind. He came by these things. We looked at the subject in Titus which is augmentary, in a sense filling out the idea of salvation. In Matthew eternal life is treated as belonging to the earth; not only persons but the nations themselves are viewed as going into it. In no sense do they go to heaven. It is a question of a sphere of blessing on earth, whereas John treats of it, as we said, in a basic sense of entering into christianity. So that he begins or continues the subject of new birth running into the matter of eternal life as a gift. In John 3 the great thought of gift is in the gospel, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". It is a gift in the full sense and the gospel continues to treat of it in chapter 4 on the principle of the Spirit springing up into it, not something on the level of the nations

here but something to be reached as belonging to elevation. The Spirit or well of water springs up into eternal life and the subject of worship is continued on that, showing that it leads upward. So we should use these thoughts before us now in looking into this passage. It treats of the truth of eternal life, as it were, in the Lord's mind in the beginning in becoming Man. "This is he that came by water and blood" involves that the idea of washing and purification is in view in entering into this great subject.

S.McC. I should like to ask if you regard the thought of eternal life as bearing on the saints down here and linked with the ways of God on earth. Is it entirely linked with the provisional side of things or does it have any bearing on the position in glory?

J.T. I think it does. As we are indicating, it is an upward trend in John's writings in view of eternal life. It is not the life on the earth as in Matthew where the nations are brought into it. John views it as leading up to heaven.

S.McC. In the world to come, in the assembly, what would be the bearing of eternal life there? What would be the bearing on the saints?

J.T. I think it would be the tree of life which is the prime thought. It is said to be in the midst of the paradise of God. It is the highest level of it and those that wash according to Revelation 22 have a right to the tree of life and to enter by the gates into the city. The tree of life belongs to the paradise of God, which is identified with the assembly, the heavenly city.

S.McC. Then would you regard the thought of eternal life as going through into eternal conditions?

J.T. I think it does. It is essential, for we are there as linked with Him in the city. What do you think?

S.McC. What you have said of late helped much on the subject because the general trend of our apprehension

of the subject has been to entirely limit it to the provisional side of our position.

J.T. Well, it is treated as a matter of purpose, as we saw yesterday in Titus, "The hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time". And in 2 Timothy the apostle says, "Paul, apostle of Jesus Christ by God's will, according to promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus"; and the Lord Himself speaks of it in John 17, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". The Lord there speaks of it as being administered, that the Lord should administer it. "Thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal". That is, He would administer it to all that came to Him. Then He proceeds to say what it is, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". This is in His mind and these are remarkable circumstances; it was in His mind to be administered.

C.H.H. So that "He is the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20) is an eternal thought.

J.T. I think so. It is in Himself.

S.McC. Is it the thought that eternal life in eternal conditions is linked with the great general thought of life? It is a relative term over against the pressure of death, is it not? The word 'eternal' life would hardly have force in eternity, would it? Does it merge into the great idea of life generally as we have it now?

J.T. Well, it would hardly be stressed when there is nothing else to challenge it, but while we are here

there is, and therefore the importance of the relative term. "In the coming age life eternal" shows that it has a beginning on earth but continues; the idea of eternity would drop but the thing is there. It is continued. I think that John's epistle is intended to treat it in an absolute and complete sense. The words alluded to earlier, "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness", would mean it is a complete, full, and important subject. The idea of the truth supports this because it is added, "the Spirit is the truth". It is a reciprocal term that could be turned around and say the truth is the Spirit. The truth is viewed as important as the Spirit in that sense. It is an eternal thought, an integral part of God, as it were, the Spirit being the truth. So we are forced into it in John's writings particularly as a prime subject, a full, complete one. The Spirit Himself being the truth treats of it as a witness.

Ques. Would eternal life be in the words of the Lord Jesus when He said, "Because I live ye also shall live"?

J.T. It would be that in John 14. The subject of life is treated in John up to chapter 12 in a formal way, and chapter 12 ends with the Lord saying that the Father's commandment is eternal life.

Ques. Would that help us to understand how the idea is continued? We live in that sense.

J.T. Well, He is life; but it says because He lives we live also. That brings our life up to His. We have part in it. But the matter is formally treated up to chapter 12, and you might say completed there, because the Father's commandment, the Lord says, is eternal life-a very remarkable statement. The Father's commandment would mean that that must go through. "For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father

who sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak; and I know that his commandment is life eternal". So that finality is to be reached on the subject in John although it is touched on afterwards. What is before us now is to understand the means by which it is intended to be reached and finalised, fixed as blessing in the divine scheme.

Ques. Is eternal life a sphere or quality in the soul?

J.T. It is both. It is a thing that can be entered into according to what we quoted already, "These shall go away into ... life eternal". They go away into it; therefore it is a sphere to be entered into. Now that is future. The nations will go into it. But as to the christian period the apostle says to Timothy, "Lay hold of eternal life", and then again John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in him". Negatively that would mean that it abides in some who are not murderers. It is in christians, in believers. It is a thing in us.

G.McP. Have you in mind in suggesting the thought of eternal life that while the assembly is here it is to be enjoyed now?

J.T. That is the suggestion. The believer is to lay hold of it. It is a sphere of things. J.N.D. said that it is an out-of-the-world order of things.

C.H.H. What is the distinction between the terms 'eternal' and 'for ever and ever'? In Ezekiel 37 you get the idea of an eternal covenant established for ever. It is the covenant made with the house of Israel. "My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever".

J.T. Well, that is to be understood contextually, as a blessing belonging to Israel. We have, for instance, the term 'eternal Spirit', what is eternal attached to the Holy Spirit, but we have to look into the context to see whether the blessing may refer to Israel as a nation; whether that is a primary thought

or whether it is just a limited thought. Those who form the nation of Israel will be brought into another setting in a merging sense. That is, they will have part in the heavenly. All who form the Israelitish nation will enjoy the position in flesh and blood but that will not continue. God's thought is that men should be spiritual and I apprehend that those who form the Israelitish nation in the coming day will merge into higher thoughts. There is much that is not written or said on those points, but what is of Israel and even flesh and blood will be blessed on earth but not in the final sense for they are to pass into eternal conditions. Flesh and blood is not to continue in the eternal state. That is clear, although it does in the millennium. So that the entry into eternal conditions is as persons, not as a nation. You cannot imagine that the nation of Israel would go to heaven and have part in the heavens in a literal sense, because old things are passing away.

Ques. Why does the apostle say, "Not by water only, but by water and blood"?

J.T. That is to bring out the full thought of death, in the terminating sense as well as in the purifying sense. The blood was necessary as a witness that the condition of flesh and blood really was terminated in the death of Christ, though it is continued now in christians, and in the millennium, but that is only provisional. God has reached a new condition in manhood, while we are in flesh and blood; that is our place now, and all who are His are to conform to that new condition.

The regeneration will take place in the millennium and then we will be passing into a new heaven and a new earth wherein righteousness dwells. It is not only that righteousness reigns but dwells, and the new heavens and the new earth are a matter of new creation. The old is intelligently terminated and the means of the termination of it are water and blood. He came

by water and blood, meaning that He came in connection with these things that were necessary to finish up the old condition and bring in the new.

C.H.H. The term itself is not used in John 3 and 4 or in Titus although implied.

J.T. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, and therefore the Lord came by these things. That is, He took manhood to die in it. He took the conditions in which He could die. He died to terminate the old flesh and blood condition and bring in the new. He appears to the brethren saying, "A spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having", Luke 24:39. He does not say blood; it is flesh and bones, a new condition which abides and that is what we are brought into. We are brought into that and that is what is meant in eternal life. We are dealing with the purifying side, the water and blood. These two elements are essential to purification in order that we enter into eternal life.

C.H.H. Would you say there is anything more conveyed than in the Son of man being lifted up or as Titus speaks of Christ giving Himself? Is there some significance in bringing in this word 'blood'?

J.T. It is because of what the judgment of God required. The idea of blood is promulgated from the outset. Water is there in type but blood is insisted upon. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore the blood alludes to flesh and blood condition, to humanity. The Lord had to come that way so as to terminate it. "On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again", John 10:17. The Father loved Him for that, because He laid down that condition and took another condition. Taking it again means life in another condition, because He did not take up what He laid down. He came here to lay down His life and the Father loved Him for that.

C.H.H. I think you said on one occasion that the blood removed man from before the eye of God and the water removed man from his own eyes. Is that right?

J.T. It is a question of state whereas blood deals with sin.

Ques. It is only in John's gospel that we get "blood and water". Is not that another line of teaching?

J.T. Quite so. There is a witness to those two things. "There came out blood and water", and here he says, "He that came by water and blood". He transposes them, but for a purpose, because of the actual state they were in, a peculiar condition rather than sin.

J.B. Why does the witness come in immediately after this statement in 1 John 5?

J.T. "It is the Spirit that bears witness". That is to say, the Spirit is competent to do this. John himself says in his gospel that he is a witness. The Spirit Himself is a witness, as already remarked. The idea of truth is as prominent as the Spirit so that there is no doubt as to what eternal conditions are to be. It is not to be flesh and blood but it is to be spiritual. The Spirit is a witness to that. Flesh and blood conditions are terminated because the Lord came in connection with these two things. The Spirit is a perfect, complete witness to that fact. It is terminated and the new heavens and the new earth cannot contain it. If it is continued on now, it is because God needs a witness. It is God's divine purpose that He is able to carry on His testimony with men in flesh and blood. What is continued is the position that Christ is in now and that is involved in the term 'eternal life'.