Pages 1 - 199 -- "Readings on Hebrews". New York, 1923 (Volume 61).
B.T.F. Would you think that the commencement of the epistle to the Hebrews connects with the scene on the mount of Transfiguration when the Father said: "This is my beloved Son: hear him". Mark 9:7?
J.T. It would connect with it, the Speaker is before us here.
Would you mind giving us some idea of what the object was in this epistle being written?
J.T. To call out the people of God from an order of things which was about to be judged. Their safety lay in getting out. Lot's safety lay in getting out of Sodom; but he had no object presented to his heart. He was to flee; but the point of this book is to present an object great enough to control the minds and hearts of the saints; so that in going out it should be with no uncertain step.
C.B. I suppose when such an One speaks there is something very definite in view.
J.T. It is the Speaker first, because it is a principle with God that we are to know who speaks.
F.L. The emphasis at the beginning is that "God ... has spoken to us in ... Son". Does not that suggest that we have come to finality? No voice to be heard after that.
A.N.W. Is the title of the epistle inspired?
"Has spoken to us in Son". You will observe the unusual form of the passage -- the article is omitted -- "in Son"; so as to throw into greater relief that the Person Himself is divine -- it is none less than God Himself.
J.C.H. Would it be, in that connection, the reason why the writer of the epistle omitted making any reference to himself?
J.T. It is to throw into full evidence the One who is the Speaker. The writer speaks as one of themselves, "spoken unto us". He wishes to put all possible emphasis upon what he has in mind, that is, that the One who speaks is none less than God Himself; but, nevertheless, a Man so as to be in direct communication with men.
F.L. I suppose it is only by inference that we understand it to be an epistle to Israel, that is, "God having spoken in ... many ways formerly to the fathers", now speaks to us in Son. So the whole framework of the epistle is formed around the Jewish system -- assuming the light of God as known in it.
J.T. And all is to give force to the word at the end: "Therefore let us go forth to him without the camp", Hebrews 13:13. If He has acquired a place, through the instruction of this chapter, in our hearts, a certain foundation is laid for the final appeal; because it is that believers should go forth to a Person.
B.T.F. Would you say that attention is called, not only to the voice, but to the gracious Person of the Son?
J.T. Yes. As just remarked, in the end of this book you have One to whom to go: "Therefore, let us go forth to him", Hebrews 13:13.
F.L. In chapter 6 the Lord is presented in the thought of a city of refuge; and as the epistle proceeds, the greatness of Christ is opened out as that place of refuge.
A.F.M. Corresponding with that, is there not a ministry in the epistle to build up what is spiritual -- a spiritual order of man in the people addressed, so that their state toward God was relative to their place outside the camp?
J.T. So you have a great spiritual system evolved
in connection with the great Speaker; hence the saints are rendered wholly independent of all human organisations; indeed, it is intended to call the saints out of a system of things which had had divine approval -- there could be nothing better than that on this earth -- but the epistle is intended to set the saints up here independent even of that. They now have in a spiritual way all that which formerly was suggested in a material way. As formed by this epistle, there would be a company of people governed by heavenly principles, wholly outside of man's organisation. So it is directly adapted to our own time.
F.L. Does it not make a very powerful appeal? That in which the Hebrew saints found themselves enmeshed, we find our brethren, very generally, enmeshed in like manner. Whilst the light did originally come from God, now they are entangled and held; so this epistle is very helpful today.
J.T. If you had lived in Jerusalem in the day in which this epistle was circulated there, and met a Jewish Christian (one who had accepted Christianity but had not definitely left Judaism), he would have said to you: What are you going to do; are you going to withdraw from the temple and all with which we have been going on? You would have answered: See the Person we have presented to us! He is the Builder of the universe; "By whom also he made the worlds". And you would have gone through this chapter and pointed out to him that there could be no lack if we have Him. And, moreover, He is the great antitype of Solomon. Solomon built the material structure, but He built the spiritual structure, and we are going in for that. Indeed, everything they had materially we are going to have spiritually. It matters not whether we are living in Judaea, Greece, Italy or any other place, we have got Him, and we have a spiritual order of things which
is going to subsist. That is how one would have spoken to such an one in that day and, I think, it all applies now. People do not understand how you can get on without an organisation; therefore, the first great thing is to get an apprehension in your soul of the greatness of the Person who addresses you.
A.N.W. You spoke of human organisations; but this letter would lead us to see that what was divinely appointed is superseded.
J.T. Yes. Stephen says, quoting from the prophet, "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is the footstool of my feet: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord, or where is the place of my rest? Has not my hand made all these things?" Acts 7:49,50. This epistle says: "He who has built all things is God" (Hebrews 3:4); but then, the Builder is the Son. He who builds the house is greater than the house. The first thing is to get the greater; that is, the Person.
F.L. So we get: "Consider how great this personage was"; who was "assimilated to the Son of God", Hebrews 7:3,4.
D.M.R. In speaking of the greatness of the Person in this way, would it set forth that He was competent to inaugurate a system according to God?
J.T. That is what comes out. This chapter lays the basis for all that. If you get into your soul the greatness of this Person, then all the other things become simple. The saints are not going to be left at any disadvantage: they have everything in a spiritual way that others may claim to have in a material way. But the first thing to be sure about is the Person who is speaking.
C.A.M. God's system will fill the universe in that way: by whom also He made the universe.
C.A.M. The tabernacle system was a picture of this -- the universal system.
J.T. We have it in a spiritual way. That is the thing to get hold of. "By whom also he made the worlds", refers to the universe. Some of us were recently remarking that there is so little time. Time is the scarcest thing one knows of. One who was a great astronomer remarked that the waste of time in teaching music was intolerable to him, although he had been a great musician, because he had begun to see the greatness of the physical universe -- of what God had in a material way; but this is spiritual, and the question with us should be: When shall I get hold of all this? When you come to this epistle it is the spiritual thing. As you said, the tabernacle was a pattern of the universal system, and it is for us to explore that.
D.M.R. It brings in the truth of Ephesians; "that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge", Ephesians 3:18,19.
J.T. The thing is so vast. If you look into the universe that now is (of course, one knows very little about it), even with the naked eye, you are lost in the contemplation of it; but think of the spiritual order of things, evolved by the One who built the universe in which we are to have part!
C.A.M. In the beginning of Leviticus it says: "The Lord ... spoke ... out of the tabernacle of the congregation": out of the tabernacle condition of things; but here it is in the Person of the Son, speaking out of the universe.
J.T. You come to that later. It is only touched on here, but the expression "the worlds" undoubtedly is the universe. The tabernacle is a figure of that in a spiritual way; and what one feels is the little time there is to go in for that.
B.T.F. Would you say that the chapter shows, in a remarkable way, divine wisdom, by unfolding in
a peculiar manner the glories of the Son so that souls might be attracted?
J.T. That is the thought, I am sure. The first great feature of the epistle is to bring into our souls the knowledge of the Son.
A.N.W. Is the suggestion of relationship wholly absent from that title, "in Son"? John's way of putting it is that if you have the Son you have the Father also.
J.T. Of course, you have the Son here; but inasmuch as the article is omitted, which is usually present in designating the Lord in that way, it is to throw into greater relief the Person as being Himself God; that is, it is God speaking, only in the Person of the Son.
F.L. It refers to Deity here. God is speaking but "in Son".
A.F.M. But as Man. Whilst it is God, it is One in manhood; otherwise the voice would not be intelligible to us.
F.L. The great point here is, He speaks "in Son" -- Deity.
J.T. The first thing is a divine Person speaking. He is no less than that.
O.S. What do "the worlds" mean?
J.T. It is a form of expression which conveys what we call the universe. It is not simply the world; but "the worlds", the whole physical system.
F.L. The heavens, the earth and all the families. In other words, everything that is materially created is embraced in the universe.
J.T. The whole system. It brings God to you; what He is. The book of Job helps you in an educational way. It makes one feel very small it has the effect of humbling one; see Job 33 to Job 42:6.
A.P. What does "being made so much better than the angels" mean?
J.T. The correct reading is, "taking a place by
so much better than the angels". It is the position He takes.
F.L. In Jeremiah 51:15, we have, "He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding", Jeremiah 51:15. I suppose the introduction of these things here, in connection with the greatness of Christ, is to show that He who evolved the material universe has now undertaken to bring to pass a spiritual universe which is instinct with life.
J.T. Great as the thought of creation is, the next statement is really greater, that is, He is "the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance". The material worlds are in themselves far beyond our apprehension, therefore, that in itself establishes the Lord as divine; but then, "the effulgence of his glory". Think of that! Think of the Man on the well of Sychar being that -- the shining out of the glory, the effulgence of God.
J.S. This enhances the greatness of His Person.
B. It is very wonderful when you come to look at a scripture like this. If you are brought into touch with divine Persons, and you take account of their movements, you see a divine system being formed and in that system a divine Centre; then the necessity of listening to the instructions to attach you to that Centre.
A.N.W. Establishing the greatness of His Person would give ample authority to come out from this divinely appointed material system.
J.T. Yes. The sciences are quite right, as far as they go, investigating what is; but this third verse speaks about "the effulgence". Scientists miss all that.
A.F.M. What is "the effulgence"?
J.T. It is the complete shining out of God. There is not a ray of light that has not found full expression in Christ. You take the greatest astronomer or
geologist, supposing he should read this and providing he were born again he would put aside all his explorations, for his heart would be touched -- this would appeal to the moral part of his being -- that is what God is seeking to do.
D.M.R. You were speaking of the Lord sitting on the well of Sychar. Would the dignity of His Person shine out there on that occasion?
J.T. "If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water", John 4:10. That is the effulgence. If you know that! She knew about the well; perhaps others knew even more; they possibly had made an analysis of the water and the rocks, but the Lord said, "If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is", John 4:10. That is what John brings in in his gospel -- the effulgence.
F.L. The thought of effulgence would carry with it that everything which can be known of God shines out through the Son. In 2 Corinthians 4 we get: "Because it is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts, for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". That would not be effulgence exactly, it would be a shining forth; but the word'effulgence'carries with it the completeness of the light of God shining out in the Person of Jesus.
J.T. You are brought into the midst of this vast system called "the worlds" here; but you are also brought to what is moral -- what commands your mind and affections: this is what God is seeking to do. So it says: "who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance". Now the mind goes back to the gospels. The gospels control your mind and affections.
F.L. "No one hath seen God at any time; the
only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18. Every revelation of God finds its expression in Christ.
J.S. So apart from the understanding of the gospels, you would hardly understand this.
J.T. In the gospels God begins at the top. The gospels seem simple; but they are only understood by those who understand the epistles. God begins at the top; He presents what is final from the outset. The gospels are really the explanation of this -- "the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance". What a field for your soul in that!
T.A. The glory which the apostles beheld -- "we beheld his glory" -- was really this.
J.T. The word should be contemplated. "We have contemplated his glory", showing that they valued the thing. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". They valued what had come so near to them. Then he adds: "and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only begotten with a father". It was not a passing look; but contemplation. It reminds you of Moses who turned aside to see the great sight. The apostles did that; they contemplated His glory.
F.L. The epistle being based on this speaking by God in Son, makes the holiest of Hebrews 10 essential, for we could never reach this had we not access there.
B.T.F. Does this statement, "the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance", give a clue to the line developed in Hebrews, that is, it leads away at once from all that is material to what is moral and spiritual?
J.T. Quite. Then we have, "having made [by Himself] the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high". It is thus that the way is clear for the establishment of a new system; but, before you have that, you have a further reference to certain sections of the Old Testament,
which would have weight with the Jewish mind, to re-enforce this. So it says: "taking a place by so much better than the angels, as he inherits a name more excellent than they. For to which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him for Father, and he shall be to me for Son? and again, when he brings in the Firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him. And as to the angels He says, Who makes his angels spirits and his ministers a flame of fire; but, as to the Son, Thy throne, O God [is] to the age of the age, and a sceptre of uprightness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom". These scriptures indicate the inheritance -- the name He inherited. What you get first is a name -- He inherits a name.
O.S. Why is He contrasted to the angels?
J.T. Because they were recognised by the Jews as the greatest beings. It was through them the law came. The prophets show that the ministry that attended Israel was largely through them; and we know there will be angels in the heavenly city. The comparison would be readily understood by a Jew.
A.F.M. Was man then not inferior to angels; but now in the Person of Christ superior to them?
J.T. Quite. The first verses stand alone in regard to creation and the shining out of God; but, the Scriptures had their place, and they unfolded a name which some one inherited, and this is the One He had before Him. It did not refer to angels, therefore it enhances the greatness of the Person who speaks. All these expressions of relationship and dignity awaited the incoming of the Son: that the Jews could not deny. "For to which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee?" The question would silence them. "And again, I would be to him for Father, and he shall be to me for Son?"This all referred to One who had not
appeared in Old Testament times; but now has appeared.
C.A.M. "Who have received the law by the disposition of angels", Acts 7:53.
J.T. That is what you get here.
C.A.M. What made the old system of such dignity was that it was received by the disposition of angels.
F.L. Referring to the name. In verse 12 we have, "Thou art the same". That is a title which the Lord assumes in the prophets and in the Psalms, that is, "The Same", or, "I am". It is an inherent name of Deity in the Old Testament. It is beautiful the way it is introduced here in contrast to everything perishing and passing away.
A.F.M. In Psalm 102 that is emphasised. There is a break in the middle of verse 24, and God addresses Christ as having years from generation to generation; and in verse 27 He says, "but thou art the Same, and thy years shall have no end".
J.T. It is a well-known term referring to absolute Deity. It was really unfolded to Moses in the wilderness -- "I AM ... this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations", Exodus 3:14, 15. The expressions used in the Psalms answer to that, for the Psalmist says: "Thy name, O Lord, endureth forever; and thy memorial, O Lord, throughout all generations", Psalm 135:13. Experience with God proved that. So in Nehemiah 9, the children of Israel in deep contrition of heart twice express: "Thou art the Same". God honoured Christ previously by addressing Him in well known terms; as if you were to say, 'Your Majesty', an expression universally understood. God addressed Him in that way in Psalm 102, "Thou art the Same".
F.L. The way in which nearly all this first chapter is built up on the Psalms greatly dignifies the Psalms in one's eyes in that respect. One sees how the book is full of the glory of the Person of Christ.
A.F.M. There is a quotation from each book of the Psalms in this first chapter.
J.T. In the Pentateuch you have the truth presented from the divine side [although the book of Deuteronomy is included in the Pentateuch and is more on the experimental side]; but the five books in a general way present the divine side. The remaining part of the Old Testament was to bring believers in their experience with God to that standard. And, as I was remarking, the saints in Nehemiah's time were equal to it, and they recognised that God was "the Same" yesterday, today and for ever. Think of God Himself, taking up the thing so universally known, and, applying it to Christ! Who could question Who He is after that Moses wrote psalms too (he wrote one at any rate). Moses was forty years with God alone, that is, he had an experience which perhaps no other man had -- forty years in a desert alone with God; then, forty years with God and the people in the desert. An experience built up on eighty years spent thus is worth something, and that experience is all put into the book of Deuteronomy. He impresses on the people what God was -- the God he had known. If you are to be with Him in His own land, you must be with Him suitably: that is the burden of the book.
F.L. That reference to Moses is very helpful. The way in which those of known experience are used of the Spirit in this way is very instructive. It conveys the suggestion that every ray of light, that had been developed in the Old Testament, is made to bear upon the Person of Christ in this opening of Hebrews, and we may well consider how great that Person is.
J.T. The name inherited being brought out from the experimental side of Scripture, presents what Christ is amongst the saints. You have what He is in creation, and after that what He is as "the effulgence
of his [God's] glory and the expression of his substance"; but, what is He among the saints?
A.N.W. You do not wonder that the Psalms end with "Hallelujah!"
A.F.M. "Let all the angels of God worship him". If He has this place amongst the angels, could we do less than that?
O.S. What is the name inherited?
J.T. The name inherited is brought out from the experimental side of Scripture, referring to what Christ is to the saints. Not only does it refer to what God was in the wilderness; but what Moses was in the wilderness, who was prophetically Christ, the Mediator. He came down from the mount with the two tables in his hands: he could not preserve them; but he was prepared to be blotted out of the book for the saints -- he was Christ -- and from that point on he comes into greater prominence with God. God speaks to him face to face.
What is Moses with the people? If you read Deuteronomy you get that. It is what Moses said. It is his own exercises, his own affections; so in Deuteronomy 10 he ends with this: "And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all His ways, and to love Him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul, to keep the commandments of the Lord, and His statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?" Deuteronomy 10:12,13. We see there what he is among the saints, bringing in the rights of God. Then he says: "Behold, the heaven, and the heaven of heavens, is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day. Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiff-necked. For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of
lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward; he doth execute the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger in giving him food and raiment. Love ye therefore the stranger; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God; him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. He is thy praise, and he is thy God, that hath done for thee these great and terrible things which thine eyes have seen. Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the Lord thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude". That is Moses amongst the saints. And so you get in the Psalms the Spirit of Christ among the saints, and it is there He is addressed as "The Same", as at the end of this chapter. It is what Christ is amongst the saints.
A.F.M. So He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His fellows.
J.T. That is what the Lord is amongst the saints because it is in that connection that He inherits the name. That is where the inherited name is. What have we found Him to be?
F.L. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come", Hebrews 13:8.
J.E.H. Why an inherited name here, but a given name in Philippians?
J.T. The point is what the Old Testament had predicated of Him; but in these Old Testament passages the Holy Spirit has in view the Lord amongst the saints -- what He is as known amongst them. As regards the angels, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" But, what is this Person amongst us? He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His fellows.
F.L. The epistle develops it very beautifully. We
are to consider the conversation, and the manner of life of those who have been before us: "Considering the issue of their conversation, Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come". What you have been leading us through in Deuteronomy, we come to in the end of this epistle.
J.T. "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come", Hebrews 13:7. That is the secret of the present recovery. That is what the Lord has effected for us in view of His near return. He is at the end what He was at the beginning.
You work things out from your own knowledge of the Lord: What have you found Him to be?
B.T.F. When you say, "among the saints", do you mean how He is known among the saints? Actually, He is that in connection with all creation.
J.T. It is a great thing to find the thing out yourself. Moses said at the end, "Yea, he loved the people", Deuteronomy 33:3 He found that out himself.
A.F.M. Do you connect these four opening verses with chapter 1?
J.T. Yes, the word 'Therefore' would suggest that. "If the word which spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape if we have been negligent of so great salvation, which, having had its commencement in being spoken [of] by the Lord, has been confirmed to us by those who have heard". There is the greatness of the Speaker and the speaking, which latter is final.
F.L. That was His speaking when here upon earth, and then the continuance of it through those that heard Him, in connection with the presence of the Holy Spirit; would that be so? I suppose it would be of all importance that each one should listen in this age to the speaking.
J.T. The speaking had its commencement in the ministry of the Lord, and was confirmed to the Jews by the ministry of the twelve, God had also borne witness with them by signs, wonders and acts of power. This was evidently special, and added peculiar force to the writer's warning.
A.R.S. It is not contemplated here that these saints were in ignorance of what was said, they had heard. I suppose the trouble with us is that we are not in ignorance of what is said, but we need to heed it.
J.T. In view of possible apostasy, "Lest ... we should slip away", he says.
A.N.W. What is the force of all that had been said being condensed in the word 'salvation', or am I right in saying it is condensed in that?
J.T. I think the reference is to Israel under Moses. The Jews were very intimate with the idea of salvation. All that the Lord spoke is summed up in that word.
F.L. In that connection it is important to see that it is, "Lest in any way we should slip away"; the heeding is emphasised, lest we should drift away.
A.R.S. Are "the things we have heard" here, the same as His "word" in Revelation -- keeping His word and not denying His name; Revelation 3:8.
J.T. There is correspondence. The things spoken are taken up according to their true value; they were final, and hence the warning to take heed to them.
A.F.M. How does the end of chapter 1 agree with what we have been saying: the angels are sent out as ministering spirits for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation; then you have the thought of slipping away. How do you reconcile the two ideas?
J.T. Slipping away refers to the position taken up. The Hebrews were regarded as having taken up a position answering to what was spoken, hence you have possible apostasy before the writer throughout the whole book.
A.F.M. It does not alter the fact of inheriting salvation. That would be the complete thing, would it not?
J.T. Yes, and it is the sovereign side. Those who inherit are those brought in sovereignly like Isaac.
A.F.M. How about chapter 9, "Christ ... shall appear to those that look for him the second time without sin for salvation", Hebrews 9:28?
J.T. That would be a question for the Hebrew Christians to answer, as to whether they were looking for Him or not.
J.E.H. Their attitude of looking would be a proof that they were in the good of His sacrifice.
J.T. Yes, it is a sort of reward for looking. It is "to those that look for him" (Hebrews 9:28) He appears. It is an immense thing to have Christ before you in this character. The reward includes what the remnant will get at the Lord's appearing.
F.L. All through there are warnings addressed to those who have taken a certain public position in connection with the name of Christ; no one is sifted out; they have taken that position, and there are certain warnings all through the epistle, and only those that are real could value them.
J.T. Isaac was an inheritor, this would bring in the sovereign side; Jacob also inherited, but Esau did not, and so he is brought in at the end as typical. The inheritance was there, but he slipped away, so to speak, he sold his birthright for a mess of pottage, proving he did not value it, and then lost the blessing.
A.R.S. The epistle to the Hebrews is one of contrasts. With Israel many did not get into the land, and so did not come into God's full purpose. They knew what deliverance from Egypt was, but never got into the land. So with us, the "great salvation" is not only shelter by blood, but includes our entering the land.
J.T. Yes. Not only is there deliverance from Egypt, but also from the earth. The "great salvation" would involve both.
J.McD. What would you understand by the land?
J.T. It is the heavenly thing: God's purpose for us in Christ.
B.T.F. "Confirmed to us by those who have heard"; are the things spoken found in Christianity?
J.T. All that the great salvation involved is included in Christianity. It was what the Lord had spoken, and was confirmed by the Spirit, through those who were with Him. At Pentecost the Holy Spirit confirmed. Peter said, "to you is the promise and to your children", Acts 2:39.
B.T.F. it is not the old dispensation, but the Lord's voice introducing what is now.
J.T. "Which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him". It was the ministry of the Lord and of the twelve, so the Jews had a full testimony; it was for them to appropriate it, otherwise they would drift away and become apostate, and that is what is happening in the Christian profession now. The apostle warned the Gentiles that they stood by faith, and "If thou shalt abide in goodness, since otherwise thou also wilt be cut away", Romans 11:22. It is looked for among the Gentiles.
A.F.M. There was no escape for the Jew, and there is none for the Gentiles.
J.T. There is no escape from the judgment of God. "Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish", Acts 13:41. The judgment rests on the Jews, but it will also rest on the Gentiles.
F.L. As the gospel is universal, so is the consequence of apostasy, upon Jew and Gentile alike.
A.F.M. In chapter 12 it says, "If they did not escape ... much more we", Hebrews 12:25. This, I suppose, would be parallel with "How shall we escape?" Then there is the solemn statement: "Our God is a consuming fire", Hebrews 12:29.
J.T. Yes. We are so accustomed to the gospel that we forget that feature of God.
F.L. The second epistle to Thessalonians affords abundant warning of all that is around us. God leaves us under no delusion; it pictures in a most earnest and insistent manner the consequence of not knowing God, and obeying not the glad tidings.
J.T. Here, "we should give heed more abundantly to the things we have heard". There are the things we are hearing, but our responsibility also is in regard to what we have heard. We read later in the epistle of "those who have spoken to you the word
of God", Hebrews 13:7. Speaking of the present time, we are responsible for what we have heard. A wonderful ministry has been raised up by God during the past century, which has placed great responsibility on the people of God at the present time so that we do well to take heed to what we have heard.
B.T.F. There is what is alluded to as "distributions of the Holy Spirit". We do not have the power of apostolic days now, but the distributions of the Holy Spirit go on.
J.T. Yes. We were speaking of what we have heard, past ministry, and what we are hearing now. We must accept the responsibility of this. In chapter 4 it says, "whose carcases fell in the wilderness", (Hebrews 3:17) etc., because they did not hearken to the word; "the word" is the test.
A.N.W. Is there nothing between negligence and treading under foot?
J.T. Negligence would mark the initial stage of apostasy, treading under foot the final one; other things might come between such as, "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together", Hebrews 10:25,26.
A.N.W. One is struck with the severity of the opening words of our chapter they are not expressive of grace.
J.T. The stronger the language the better in order to effectually warn them. That would be the point here. He wants to warn them of approaching danger. The Jews were on the verge of a precipice. We, too, should see the danger, and heed the warning.
W.L.P. If they kept on that course, they would be eternally lost. The beginning of the course is neglect. We may not fully apprehend the force of that word 'neglect'.
J.T. When you begin to neglect you are on the road to destruction, so that the more pronounced the warning, the more the grace exhibited in seeking to save those in danger.
D.M.R. "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men", 2 Corinthians 5:11.
C.A.M. It is put in the form of a question here; people are asked where they are going to; you could hardly have it put in a more powerful way; hence you see the divine wisdom of it.
J.T. And hence, "If the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution, how shall we escape?"
A.F.M. What you were emphasising earlier is very important. The value, not only of present but past ministry. It is salutary that we should be exercised in respect to that which has been given.
J.T. Many have not only neglected that which has been given, but criticised and positively rejected it. It is the result of a course, and God will doubtless come in governmentally regarding such.
W.L.P. Is there a phase of apostasy in that?
J.T. It is on the road to it; any rejecting is the sad fruit of neglecting.
F.L. Error is made to look very plausible and attractive at times. Materialism leads to treading under foot the Son of God. Christian Scientists are an example of what we are speaking of. There is urgent need of warning lest there be the neglecting, which leads on to despising, which is apostasy; so that the Spirit of God warns us in this way.
W.L.P. This comes before chapters 6 and 10.
J.T. This is the first danger signal. If this is ignored the others will probably be also. The warnings are intended to arouse from indifference.
B.T.F. Give us an outline of the chapter; a certain object is before the writer.
J.T. In chapter 1 it is the Speaker and the name He inherits. In our chapter, the first four verses are a warning, and the instruction proper comes in at
verse 5, by calling attention to the place God has given Christ.
B.T.F. Then we have praise to God. What is your thought about that?
J.T. The writer begins at verse 5 by saying, "He has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak". Then he goes to the Psalms to show that all things are subjected to the Son of man. This chapter shows that Christ was God, and that in becoming Man He was made some little inferior to angels, having in view the position of being our Leader and High Priest in resurrection.
F.L. So that really the thing immediately before us is the new world and the Man of glory that gives it character, the great theme of the whole epistle is found in this chapter.
J.T. Chapter 1 is on God's side, but this chapter is on our side, so that we might see with what a great system we are connected. Psalm 8 is brought in to show the unique place this Man has who came from God.
C.A.M. To show what centres around Him as Son of man.
J.T. Yes. It is the place that God has given Him as such, so it says, "What is man, that thou rememberest him, or son of man that thou visitest him? Thou hast made him some little inferior to the angels; Thou hast crowned him with glory and honour, and has set him over the works of thy hands. Thou hast subjected all things under his feet".
Now we see the mind of God clearly, that everything is in subjection to Christ, but that is not what he is going to develop. He just brings that in. What the writer desires to advance is the new system God has built up, and these Hebrew Christians had part in that system; so that he wants to lead them outside
of what they had formerly been connected with into the reality of Christianity.
A.F.M. The priestly place He occupies before God is of moment, as that in which we are represented.
J.T. We do not see the position described in Psalm 8 yet, so he is going to enlarge on what we have now. In chapter 1 of our epistle it is the inauguration of the system; in chapter 2 we are linked with Him in it, so that He is the Leader of praise in the midst of His brethren, and we are also the children. This is what he is bringing in; he wants to develop this great system, and to show that the saints have part in it.
A.N.W. He presents the Person, without whom their writings as well as the position spoken of would be empty.
F.L. The Jewish mind was so habituated to angels, and the ministration of angels, but God ever had man in mind.
J.T. "We see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; so that by the grace of God he should taste death for everything. For it became him for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory". At the present moment this is what God is doing: "Bringing many sons to glory". That is what was in the mind of God. The One who inherits the name will effect all this for God.
B.T.F. Would you say that when that touch is given "to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings", that it really takes in the thought of priesthood -- that the Captain of our salvation and the Priest are connected?
J.T. That would come out later. It is the great fact that He is the Leader. The word is "Leader", He is made perfect through sufferings.
B.T.F. That perfecting came about through
suffering. I thought perhaps the suffering was alluded to in a reverential way, the Lord entered into all that through which we pass.
J.T. Well, it is. As brethren, His identification is with us in this chapter, so that we might see that we have a place in the new system and be in it; the sons are marked by suffering, and in order that He should be our Leader He is perfected through suffering.
A.F.M. In our chapter it is what became God. In chapter 7, it is "Such a High Priest became us", Hebrews 7:26. It is striking that it became God to do this.
J.T. It shows the position in which we are and what it entails. In Ephesians we are taken up to heaven by one stroke of divine power; chapter 2:4 - 7. But in Hebrews, we are brought into accord with Him through suffering. No one can escape it. It is God's way of bringing the many sons to glory.
A.F.M. He is the Leader of salvation and we are the followers, but in suffering.
A.R.S. God made the Leader perfect through sufferings and is bringing many sons to glory by the same way.
J.T. We are connected with Christ the Leader, and so must be subject to this leading, the purpose of God is to bring the many sons to glory through suffering; so Christ had to go that way, and we have to go the same way. He has gone through the sufferings, so that His perfection, in this sense, is that He was the Sufferer.
A.R.S. We are brought to glory here as sons. In 1 Thessalonians the Lord Himself takes the saints there; here it is God bringing the many sons.
J.T. The apostle had delivered the gospel to the Thessalonians through much tribulation. The Thessalonians also suffered, imitating those in Judaea in Christ Jesus. The rapture does not involve suffering,
but all those who will be caught up must have suffered -- no one can escape it.
T.H. How do we suffer, in spirit or in body?
J.T. In both. Looking at a great Old Testament example of one brought through, namely, Jacob, he says, "God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God who fed me all my life long unto this day, the Angel which redeemed me from all evil", Genesis 48:15,16. God takes a man up as he is, like Jacob, and adjusts him. To bring this about a set of workers is brought in -- "tribulation worketh patience; and patience experience; and experience, hope", Romans 5:3,4. We are brought to know God as our Justifier, then sufferings come in immediately; in chapter 8 we find that "All things work together for good", so that the adjustment leads on to purpose.
F.L. What you speak of has in view the world to come in manifestation; that answers to suffering on this side -- glory in the world to come. Christ has been that way, and the sons have also to go by the same.
J.T. No one can escape it. It is as much God's way that we should suffer, as it was His pleasure to save us out of Egypt.
C.A.M. It is God's way; it did not come about by accident. Referring to Israel in Exodus 3, it was a marvellous descent, on Jehovah's part, "I am come down to deliver them", Exodus 3:8.
D.M.R. Speaking of perfection, Jacob had reached it according to the mind of God, for he worshipped, leaning on the top of his staff.
J.T. God came down to deliver them out of Egypt, and led them out that He might bring them in. After forty years of discipline, Moses was equal to being Israel's leader. God showed him a bush burning; it was really a bramble, and yet it did not consume. That, I suppose, refers to a people in despicableness and suffering; but God was in the
midst of that people, and they are not consumed. The fire burned in their midst; also for forty years in the wilderness.
J.T. It prefigured the discipline of God. He could not go on with them without discipline. Think of what came upon Paul in Asia; "we despaired even of life", (2 Corinthians 1:8) he says. That was not for nothing. Paul meant to convey to the Corinthians that he himself was in the school of discipline, and could write to them now as a disciplined man, that is the "forty years". At the end of Israel's forty years, God speaks through Balaam, and the word was, "according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought!" Numbers 23:23. Jacob typifies the Christian as in Romans, and Israel the Christian as in Ephesians, but in either case it is what God has wrought.
F.L. The burning bush answers to the suffering through which we pass, so that the discipline of God, and what comes in, is never withdrawn. In passing through these things we are not consumed, and one has the knowledge that He is with one.
J.T. "In all their affliction he was afflicted", Isaiah 63:9. It became God that our Leader must go through suffering, in view of bringing the many sons to glory; normal Christianity supposes that you are suffering all the time.
J.S. Because of what we are and the character of the world.
J.T. The more the suffering the fuller and fresher ministry you give.
A.P. You brought in bodily suffering as well?
J.T. We have to learn things from Paul. In the epistle to the Philippians, already referred to, you get Christianity worked out practically in the saints in its effects and results; see chapter 1:27 - 30.
D.M.R. "I will leave in the midst of thee an
afflicted and poor people" (Zephaniah 3:12); that suggests suffering.
J.T. The Lord also discriminates in certain instances: He says to the remnant in Thyatira, "I will put upon you none other burden" (Revelation 2:24); at the same time, He will see to it that you have your share of suffering.
T.H. "Whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it", 1 Corinthians 12:26.
C.A.M. If you do not suffer, it is questionable whether you are a son.
J.T. We get the truth, not from our own experience, but from the Scriptures. In 2 Corinthians Paul recounts his sufferings; they probably go beyond those of any other man; and if you look at that epistle you will be struck by the number of references he makes to himself; he set himself before them as a model of those who followed the Lord; so if you want to see normal Christianity in a man, you look at Paul.
W.L.P. Suffering is always connected with a godly life; 2 Timothy 3:12.
F.L. There is "the fellowship of his sufferings", Philippians 3:10. Think of the preciousness of Christ to God! How could we go through this scene and not realise pain and sorrow? There is the losing of our life in this world for Christ. We may be endowed with things here from which we gladly withdraw for the companionship of Christ.
A.N.W. Would you make a distinction here, as Peter does in his first epistle, between suffering for righteousness and suffering for sin?
J.T. No, in this scripture it is just suffering -- the thing itself. Verses 11 and 12 show how He is identified with us. They are well known to us, and come in in a forceful way as laying the basis for the assembly; they show what He is to us in the assembly.
A.N.W. I suppose there would be no song at all
if there were no suffering. The greater the suffering the sweeter the song.
A.F.M. This section supposes His rejection by Israel, from verses 11 to 13, does it not? He had lost Israel, but God gave Him the assembly. He has brethren and they are the children.
D.M.R. In speaking of the Lord's identification with His brethren, I suppose it is complete in declaring the Father's name.
J.T. It is a wonderful word; "he is not ashamed to call them brethren". In the gospels we get the characteristic of the brethren, but here it is, the Sanctifier and the sanctified are all of one, which places us on a very high plane -- the same as that on which Christ is.
B.T.F. It is an immense point that the children should be set as free as the Captain of their salvation; through His death they are delivered from the bondage of death, and brought into liberty.
J.T. Quite so. In view of which He took hold of the seed of Abraham, but before that you have the sons and the brethren and the children. Sons refer to what we are for God -- purpose; the brethren are for Christ -- His companions; the children are for His comfort. "Behold, I and the children which God has given me". In the time of His rejection He had them. The Lord has His comfort in those that God gave Him in the time of His affliction outwardly.
A.N.W. A further view in which the Lord sees that company, is that of "the assembly".
J.T. That I think is what He has for God. God is pleased to take the children. Joseph's children were a comfort to him; Genesis 41:50 - 52. Jacob later said of them; "thy two sons ... are mine" (Genesis 48:5) showing undoubtedly that the sons share in what is their father's so that the children here merge into what is for God, but are given to Christ at the time of His affliction. Jacob gave them their place, not
Joseph; so while we are a comfort to Christ, we get our place sovereignly from God. The assembly is a present comfort to Christ, but it all leads up to God and His purpose.
C.A.M. The way we are brought in in these relationships all contributes to the greatness of Christ.
J.T. Yes, and issues in what He has for God.
C.A.M. Our position is not so much in view, but what God gets.
A.N.W. We often put emphasis on the children, but the word is "Behold, I and the children which God has given me".
D.M.R. There is a difference between this scripture and what we have in Ephesians. Here it is, praises in the assembly; in Ephesians, glory in the assembly.
J.T. In verse 16 we see it is the seed of Abraham of which He takes hold. He is fully identified with us in so doing, having in view His complete service for us, as verses 17 and 18 show.
A.F.M. He did not take hold of angels by the hand, but man in view of purpose.
J.E.H. It is a remarkable expression. Would you say that God took Israel by the hand when He led them out of Egypt?
J.T. Yes, He led them out by the hand of Moses and in by the hand of Joshua. It is "the seed of Abraham" -- flesh and blood in contrast to angels. He is thus identified with all the families the Father names.
J.S. This is not a slight on angels.
A.F.M. They are higher in order than man, some had fallen, but He did not take them by the hand.
F.L. The ways of God are perfect; we can only take account of man having fallen. He took hold of the seed of Abraham. As to fallen angels, we know little; all this would sober us.
A.F.M. The allusion to angels in both chapters is to bring forward their greatness, I suppose, rather
than that they fell. In becoming Man He has, through redemption, raised us to a position so much greater than that of angels.
J.T. This would enhance man's place, especially in the Jewish mind. The Lord became Man in connection with that people.
D.M.R. Is there any difference between this opening remark, "Holy brethren", and what the Lord said after His resurrection, "Go to my brethren" John 20:17? Would it be an advance?
J.T. I think the emphasis is on "holy" here. The thought of brethren was quite familiar in Jewish relations. They were accustomed to regard each other as brethren. Both Paul and Peter addressed them as such, too, in the Acts; but here the relationship is spiritual, and the emphasis is on "holy" -- "holy brethren".
J.S. Are they viewed as "holy brethren" being sanctified and set apart for Himself?
A.T.M. Is the thought to elevate them?
J.T. I think so. The Spirit sought to lead the Hebrew Christians to lay hold of their heavenly relations, and the word 'holy' applied would strengthen the heart. Many Christians are afraid to take up the place the Holy Spirit accords them. This is what you might call abstract, that is, it refers to all true Christians.
B.T.F. Do you think it is based on, "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren", Hebrews 2:11.
J.T. I doubt if it goes as far as that. I think they were taken upon the ground of their profession.
D.M.R. They had accepted that position.
A.F.M. This would put a leverage in their souls.
J.T. It strengthens the heart to know what the mind of God is -- what is expressed about us. It is not a question of the state of the saints; but the mind
of God about them. To be addressed in this way by the Spirit of God as "holy brethren" is very stimulating; and it encourages you to take hold of what is predicated of the saints. "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling". They have part in the heavenly calling, which is a contrast to an earthly calling, which the Jews had.
A.R.S. While the Holy Spirit calls them "holy brethren", should we say that of each other?
J.T. I think we should in the sense in which it is used here. You could hardly take account of Christians in any other way. This, as I said, is abstract -- how God takes account of us. As the apostle says in the epistle to the Corinthians in enjoining them to cast out the old leaven, "as ye are unleavened", 1 Corinthians 5:7. Not, As ye ought to be; but "as ye are".
A.N.W. At the outset of the same epistle it says they are saints by calling.
A.F.M. In the divine mind, this would be true of all saints.
J.T. Quite. How could we be partakers of the heavenly calling, except as thus viewed? Otherwise you would have those who were unholy having part in the heavenly calling, which would be thoroughly out of accord with the mind of God.
C.A.M. You could not consider the greatness of this Person in such conditions.
J.T. The expression stimulates and encourages the heart to take hold of what is presented.
A.F.M. Thus the expression, "heavenly calling", involves the call of God to heaven. Like Israel of old, they were called to Canaan.
A.F.M. All the education of the wilderness was in view of the land.
J.T. The call, primarily, was to Abraham, and they would all have it -- it would be handed down --
but God Himself appears to Moses and indicates that He is about to take the children of Israel out of Egypt, and lead them into the land of Canaan; that is, the call is confirmed in God's address to Moses. Then you have, as the record stands in Exodus, the genealogy, or generations, of Jacob's children. You get an account of the tribes until you arrive at Levi. It does not go beyond Levi because it is a question of bringing forward the apostle and High Priest in Exodus 6. So the genealogy, or generations, of Jacob's children are given; Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and then Levi's posterity, until you come down to Moses' father and mother, and then: "This is that Aaron and Moses", Exodus 6:26. The Apostle and High Priest are authenticated in their family link -- "This is that Aaron and Moses", Exodus 6:26. And I think there is the suggestion here that our calling is assured to us, it is confirmed, and, as having it confirmed, you consider in the dignity of it the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. "Our confession", not our calling; that is to say, we come down to the thought of the confession in all the dignity and power of the calling. The confession is dignified by those who are in it. The calling is higher than the confession; for the confession is what I am down here; but I dignify it by the calling.
J.E.H. "The Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus", does that mean that you have a link with that One?
J.T. Confession is what comes out here in the way of testimony. The Apostle and High Priest is Christ in this office, and stands in relation to what we are down here.
B.T.F. Are they described in the first two chapters?
J.T. The first two chapters are like Exodus 6 -- the genealogy of the Apostle and High Priest, "This
is that Aaron and Moses", Exodus 6:26. We have them in one Person here.
B.T.F. "For, in that himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to help those that are being tempted", (Hebrews 2:18 ) bringing before us the wonderful sympathy he has, and ability as Priest to support His own.
J.T. Chapter 1 is the Apostle, that is to say, this is that Moses. Chapter 2 is the High Priest: this is that Aaron. As you said, the High Priest in chapter 2 is able to sympathise.
C.A.M. Writing to these Hebrew saints in this way, it would carry their thoughts back to what was said in Exodus 6, and would enhance the greatness of this Person to their hearts.
J.T. The people would have a knowledge of their leaders. There is much said about Moses and Aaron, especially about Moses, in the opening chapters of Exodus before you have the exodus itself, so the people would have confidence in them. It is a great thing to have confidence in our leaders.
D.M.R. Referring to Moses and Aaron being brethren in the flesh, would that bring before us how closely linked the Apostle was with the High Priest?
J.T. I think it would establish confidence in the people. It would assure a certain amount of unity and agreement. We know, in detail, it did not; there was a certain amount of disagreement and a measure of rivalry with Aaron, for he and Miriam rebelled against Moses at one point; but here we have "that Moses and Aaron" (Exodus 6:26) in one Person.
A.F.M. In this case a perfect answer to the true Moses is found in the true Aaron.
J.T. The High Priest is equal to the Apostle.
A.F.M. In going back to Exodus, what have we there which answers to the "confession" here?
J.T. First of all the passover: the blood of the passover lamb on their side posts and lintels was a confession. Anyone could read that. It distinguished
them from the world. Then their moving out in military array under divine leadership. The confession there is, typically, that Jesus Christ is Lord. So that the passover lamb would be the confession of His death, and their movement out of Egypt would be the confession of His lordship. They were in the kingdom as they began to move, and came under His leadership and protection, which Exodus 13 and 14 show. As they were subject they were protected; this was their confession.
B.T.F. What you say shows the suitability of the word in contrast to profession. Confession would really come from the heart.
J.T. Confession is akin to martyrdom. They witnessed a good confession. They "confessed that they were strangers and sojourners on the earth", Hebrews 11:13.
A.P. It says, "Moses indeed was faithful in all his house". Did his confession embrace the time when he refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction with God's people?
J.T. It did; but when Moses is brought in here, it is not a question of his confession, but rather of his faithfulness in service in God's house. The first thing is the confession, and the Apostle and High Priest of it. Many have the thought of confession, but do not see there is an Apostle connected with it, and a High Priest. In that way you are connected with a system, and supported and protected in the confession.
A.P. What is the thought in the Apostle?
J.T. One who comes out from God as having been with Him. The High Priest goes in. In chapter 1 we have, "God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us
in ... Son", Hebrews 1:1,2. That is the Apostle. One who comes out to speak. There are many who confess the Lord who do not see that there is an Apostle and a High Priest connected with that confession; therefore are not sustained in it. If you have the conscious support of the Apostle and High Priest, you are not only sustained individually but co-ordinated -- your confession is linked with that of others.
A.N.W. "And Israel ... believed the Lord, and his servant Moses", Exodus 14:31.
J.T. That leads to the next thing: "Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord", Exodus 15:1. Moses now acquires a place as a song leader -- there is co-ordination. It is your confession, mine, and that of all Christians: there is only one confession, really. The idea is not that there should be so many individuals confessing the Lord, but co-ordination.
A.F.M. Take Romans 10:9: "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved", Romans 10:9. Does it imply that there is One who is now endeared to your heart, whom you own, a Person with whom you have a link? Is not the title one of endearment to those who know Him?
J.T. No doubt, but "Lord Jesus" involves His authority, which Satan will never recognise. You will find he will never recognise the lordship of Christ. He will recognise the name Jesus; but the lordship of Christ never. That is where the test comes -- it is confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus. That is the thing, and in doing that you come under His protection, and get His support.
J.T. It is confessing Him publicly; the children of Israel went out of Egypt in the sight of all the Egyptians -- the Egyptians saw them go out. It will
not do to hold allegiance to the Lord silently: there must be a public recognition of the Lord.
J.T. Yes. It says, "with an high hand", Exodus 14:8.
A.P. Is the confession amongst the Lord's people?
J.T. More publicly; where the enemy's power is -- in the sight of the Egyptians. We go to heaven privately, not in the sight of all the Egyptians. We are not told that any one saw Enoch go up, nor Elijah, save Elisha. The translation of the assembly is a private matter. On the mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elias spake of His decease, which meant His departure out of this world, that was to be public; and baptism corresponds with it. He went out of the gate, which was the place of publicity, bearing His cross -- every one saw Him. The confession is not a private matter; but the Lord supports us in it. By avoiding a public confession, we miss the Lord's support -- the great gain of the Apostle and High Priest, and He is that in connection with the system, and the system involves confession.
W.L.P. What is it that brings about public confession?
J.T. It takes various forms; but the great thing is that you are not ashamed to confess Him.
W.L.P. I was thinking of the martyrs.
J.T. The thought of confession involves martyrdom. Whatever it costs you, you confess the Lord. Your everyday life is in accord with your confession.
C.A.M. Speaking about going to heaven being private, as far as this world is concerned they will not say, They have gone to heaven; but, They never belonged here.
J.T. There is great opposition to any thought of going to heaven. Even when Elijah went up, Elisha was persuaded by the sons of the prophets that, after all, it might be a mistake and they might find him
somewhere, whereas, Elisha saw him go up. But the testimony is that Enoch was translated, it says in chapter 11, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God", Hebrews 11:5. Those who please God will be translated.
A.F.M. One title to go to heaven is that we are called, but it is of all moment to have the testimony that we please God.
J.S. "Our confession" goes beyond the individual confession.
J.S. The system over which He presides.
D.M.R. You were speaking of the Lord going out publicly by the way of the gate. When He ascended up to heaven, would that be private?
J.T. He said, "The world sees me no longer", John 14:19.
J.S. "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before", John 6:62?
J.T. That is abstract. It does not mean that every one saw Him; but He would be seen. Some of their own number would see Him. It is abstract; for, as a matter of fact, Peter and others saw Him.
A.R.S. What is involved in considering Jesus? "Consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Jesus".
J.T. It is a good thing to sit down and consider Him; because everything in the system with which we are connected emanates from Him, and has to be learnt from Him. If you sit down beside this blessed Man, and contrast all the great dignitaries of Christendom with Him, beginning with the Pope, right down to the most ordinary curate, what place could they have with you? See the difference! Jesus is the Official of the system. Think of Him! The name Jesus implies that He is a Man. If you view the situation in that way, you see at once the importance
of considering Him, and as you do so, you say to yourself, Am I like Him in what I am doing amongst the saints? Because He is leading on to the thought of the house and you measure yourself with Him in relation to it.
A.R.S. Is Mary an illustration?
J.T. She would be. It is from that point in Luke you get the thought of priesthood developed. "As he was in a certain place praying", Luke 11:1. There is the idea -- a Man is there. They saw Him praying and if Mary were present, she would say, I would like to pray in that way. So, "one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray", Luke 11:1. Whatever you do in the house of God, you have to learn to do it from Christ.
W.L.P. Would considering Him be studying His life?
J.T. Considering Him would be taking into account the Man; and the next thing is, How do I compare with that Man?
A.J.D. In considering Him, you consider Him in relation to the system, do you not?
J.T. It is Jesus. You consider the Man. Most young believers see men as trees walking. They see this and that big brother (I say "big" because the Lord may be using them), and these are magnified in their eyes. Now, the Lord asked the man at Bethsaida, "If he beheld anything", Mark 8:23. And he looked up, and said, "I behold men, for I see [them] as trees walking", Mark 8:24. After that the Lord put His hands again upon his eyes (He touched him twice), and he then saw every man clearly. So men do not assume undue proportions in your mind. Then the Lord goes on to say to His disciples, "Who do men say that I am?" Mark 8:27. He wants to draw out from them what they had arrived at in companying with Him. What had they found in Christ? Peter here says, "Thou art the Christ", Mark 8:29. His answer is given in the three synoptic
evangelists, and his confession in each one is distinctive. He had seen the Lord; he had been with Him, and had discovered something in Him -- he had considered. And, I can well understand what Peter confesses he would afterwards, as well as all the others, be exercised to be in keeping with. They would never again be unduly influenced by any other man than this Man.
D.M.R. The Lord's own words to the disciples were, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls", Matthew 11:29. It could be said of Moses, although he was the one who inaugurated the tabernacle system, that he "Was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth", Numbers 12:3.
J.T. It is really "Learn from me", (Matthew 11:29) which fits in with this.
A.F.M. Would you cite those three confessions of Peter?
J.T. In Matthew 16 it is, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", Matthew 16:16. In Matthew He is the Builder of the assembly.
In Mark 8, "Thou art the Christ", Mark 8:29. The One who does everything for God, the Anointed. There was One here who would do everything for God. In Luke 9, "The Christ of God", Luke 9:20. The One who not only does everything for God, but brings God forward, making Him everything.
A.F.M. Our apprehension of the greatness of the system depends upon our knowledge and appreciation of this One.
J.T. It dignifies you greatly. When you come on to chapter 8, it is not only the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, but: "A summary of the things of which we are speaking [is], We have such a one High Priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of [the] greatness in the heavens", Hebrews 8:1. We
have such a One. It is what we have. That makes you fully independent of the world. Take the Roman hierarchy and set it down alongside what we have. What is that worth in comparison with what we have? When we speak about what we have, it is what all Christians have, and the thought is emancipating -- it enables you to leave all human organisations.
J.S. To see "all things clearly" Mark 8:25, is that to see men, or things, in their relative position in regard to Christ?
J.T. You never see them rightly until you see them in relation to Christ. The first touch did not effect that. He saw something; but he saw men, as trees, walking. 1 Corinthians 2 shows that "the spiritual discerns all things" 1 Corinthians 2:15. He sees everything as it is.
W.L.P. Why did not the blind man get his full sight at first?
J.T. Some people think we get everything at the start, but they make a mistake. In this instance it needed a second touch. It is typically the gift of the Spirit. The gift of the Spirit is to be distinguished from new birth or redemption.
J.S. In new birth you have title to everything; but to come into the practical good of Christianity you require the Spirit.
J.T. There are believers and believers. We read of the Lord's disciples in the gospel of John believing on Him; but they were already believers.
C.A.M. And in John 20 we get confirmed believers.
J.T. In Acts 19 we have: "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Acts 19:2 They were believers, but they had not yet received the Spirit.
Rem. In Ephesians: "Having believed, ye have been sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise" Ephesians 1:13.
J.E.H. Here we have something about the house.
J.T. It is a question of contrast. "Who is faithful to him that has constituted him, as Moses
also in all his house". Then he touches on the house; but it is to bring out that the One who built the house is greater than the house. The Lord Jesus is greater than Moses in the measure in which He who has built the house has more honour than the house. Moses did not build the house, Christ is the Builder.
B.T.F. Is it not remarkable that it should say, "Jesus, who is faithful to him that has constituted him, as Moses also in all his house"?
J.T. It was that kind of faithfulness -- a question of kind. It goes on immediately to say, "For he has been counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, by how much he that has built it has more honour than the house. For every house is built by some one; but he who has built all things is God". The Holy Spirit passes on immediately to the superiority or pre-eminence of Christ.
A.F.M. That is, He is God, the Creator.
A.N.W. In chapter 1, the Son is God; but here Jesus is God, "he who has built all things is God".
J.T. Wonderful weaving of the truth! In the building of the house it is God Himself, no less.
C.A.M. According to chapter 1, God, in the Person of the Son, was the Creator of all things: this is really based on that.
J.T. Quite. "All things" refers to the universe.
A.F.M. The book really enlarges upon the truth presented in chapters 1 and 2.
J.S. Why is the house introduced here?
J.T. The place in which our faithfulness is seen. There is nothing tests you more than the house in that respect; because the saints form it: "Whose house are we". The saints forming it, necessitates that you have to take account of every one of them. Not only is there a great variety of states in the house, but you may find a good deal of hostility in some, and
of indifference in others, and you will be tested, if you are a servant, in that very thing.
The history of Moses helps very much, because in that forty years in the wilderness with the people, you see what a variety of states he had to deal with. What jealousy! What rivalry! Even his brother Aaron and his sister Miriam, spoke against him; then Korah and his company, but he bore with them all. You are encouraged thus to bear with the Lord's people; your faithfulness is seen in the way you bear with them.
You cannot touch on a more important subject than faithfulness in the house, we are so apt to get weary and discouraged with the ungratefulness of the Lord's people. Take the apostle Paul in regard to Asia, where his greatest service was rendered -- his three years' ministry at Ephesus -- and yet he had to say, "All they which are in Asia be turned away from me", 2 Timothy 1:15. What a test that was! Again, the Corinthians, amongst whom he wrought for eighteen months, he says in substance to them: Wherever I go, I speak well of you; I bring you forward, because you are in my heart, you are my letter. Yet they were allowing direct opposers of Paul to flourish in their midst. So he has to say, "If even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved", 2 Corinthians 12:15.
J.E.H. Paul was a faithful man.
J.T. You have to make up your mind to be that. For it is in the house you will be tested. Moses was tested for forty years, and the book of Deuteronomy shows how successful he was. Moses wrote that book at the end of his life, and it abounds with his love for the people. He would not give them up because he loved them.
A.F.M. What is the relation of Christ as Son over God's house?
J.T. Moses was a servant in the house; Christ a
Son over His house to accord liberty to all who are of it. The One who is over the house is the Son, and that accords liberty to us, "Whose house are we".
J.T. It would hardly be right to say it is earthly. It is a heavenly institution, taken up and placed on earth provisionally. The idea of the house belongs to the earth; but the assembly is it for the moment. It came to light in connection with Jacob, was with Israel, and will be prominent in the millennium; but not in heaven. It is a great privilege now to be brought to the recognition of the house.
The writer does not in this epistle enlarge on the truth of the house; but shows Christ's place in it -- that He is Son over it. So it says, "Christ, as Son over his house, whose house are we". The "we" is emphatic. All Christians are included in the "we". You may tell any Christian that he is of the house.
A.N.W. The "great house"(2 Timothy 2:20) condition in Timothy does not conflict with this.
J.T. The word 'great' shows that the professing thing had become conspicuous in the world. The true idea of the house is lost now -- it is not visible at the present time, but was when this epistle was written.
A.N.W. The house over which Christ is Son, has it not vessels to honour rather than to dishonour?
J.T. You have to view is abstractly now. All real Christians belong to it.
J.T. Yes. I think the spiritual mind understands the use of the word 'great' in this connection, and it affords room for vessels to dishonour. Such a mind understands that "a great house" refers to what took the place of the house of God -- that which had been the subject in 1 Timothy; but it ceased to be that, so he introduces the word 'great'. Timothy would
understand that it had become that. We do not say it is God's house.
C.A.M. We would not say that Christ is Son over that house.
J.T. The only thing to be said is, that the great house includes publicly the house of God. It is not outside of it. The great house includes the vital thing.
A.F.M. Here we are said to be God's house if; and companions of the Christ if; but, normally speaking we are God's house and companions of the Christ.
J.T. You do not apply the "if" where the saints are in the power of the thing. It refers to our public position. All profession, at the time in which this epistle was written, would be included in the "we". "Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end". The "if" supposed the possibility of it discontinuing and becoming the great house.
W.L.P. In the great house there is not the exercise of discipline, or the purging out of evil in a general way.
J.T. There is not. So you have, "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the Master's use, and prepared unto every good work", 2 Timothy 2:21. You separate from "these", the vessels to dishonour, not from the great house. You cannot leave it; that is, the profession; but you can separate yourself from vessels to dishonour. Strictly speaking, the house of God always refers to real believers, "Whose house are we". And, "judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us; what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.
A.R.S. Coming to the second paragraph, what about the speaking in the house?
J.T. That is where it is. The ground work is laid for the Holy Spirit. The reference is to Psalm 95 -- "Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit". It is not, As the Holy Spirit said. Historically it had been said hundreds of years before, but it is a present speaking -- a present application of the Psalm. It throws light on how the Old Testament is to be used. "Wherefore, even as says the Holy Spirit". It is what He is saying. As I remarked, He said it hundreds of years before, but it is the present application of the thing to the subject in hand.
A.F.M. So in chapter 10 the Holy Spirit witnesses.
J.T. That is another example. It is a citation from Jeremiah: "and their sins and their lawlessnesses I will never remember any more", Hebrews 10:17. It is the present application of what Jeremiah said to what the Spirit is saying in chapter 10.
A.N.W. The Son hardly speaks in the house.
J.T. That brings in another consideration. In the addresses to the seven assemblies the Lord speaks personally to the angel of each assembly: "These things says the Son of God", (Revelation 2:18) that is the Lord's own word. He asserts His rights. So we say, It is the Lord's voice. But, then, there is the Spirit's voice: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", Revelation 2:7. Not now what the Lord says, but what the Spirit says. The Holy Spirit is here in the humble position of a Servant, and He must be recognised and listened to. The Lord, Himself, said: "Whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one", Matthew 12:32. The Lord is in heaven but the Holy Spirit is here, and it being a time of apostasy, the word for us is, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says unto the assemblies" Revelation 2:18; see Revelation 2 and 3.
A.F.M. The letters to the seven assemblies are specific and complete, but the Spirit speaking to the assemblies would be continuous as occasion necessitated.
J.T. We are not told what the Spirit says. The point is to listen to what He says, whatever it is. But we are formally given what the Lord says to each assembly.
J.S. So, "To-day, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts", Hebrews 4:7.
J.T. "If ye will hear his voice", (Hebrews 4:7) that is the first thing. Have you learned to listen to the Spirit's voice? If you have learned that you will hear it.
J.T. Something that he who "has an ear" hears -- it is distinctive. There is a living voice speaking through one and another. The Holy Spirit has His own way of emphasising certain things, and I think we may learn from this passage -- "If ye will hear his voice", Hebrews 4:7. That is, have I been accustomed to listening to and hearing His voice? I have listened to preachers, and I can talk about great gifts -- men who have been distinguished in preaching, etc., but have I listened to the Spirit's voice? He may take up an insignificant person through whom to speak; but I am not occupied with the vessel, but with what is spoken. "He shall bear witness concerning me", John 15:26. And, "he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you", John 16:13,14.
J.S. Is it in view of recovery that He is speaking? The Holy Spirit has been so disregarded.
J.T. There are very few Christians who have accustomed themselves to listening to the Spirit. He has His own way of speaking. Have I a trained ear to hear what the Spirit says?
C.A.M. You prove that in reading a scripture. I may read the same scripture that you do, but the Spirit's voice would make those words mean far more to you than to me.
J.T. You may hear something in a meeting that I do not. Why is that? Paul distinguished between himself and those who travelled with him: he heard and saw what they did not; Acts 22:9. Why was that?
A.N.W. At the end of Revelation the bride would appear to hear what the Spirit says: "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:17.
J.T. It is very nice to see that the bride, with the Spirit, is saying, Come. She is now brought to it.
Our attention has recently been drawn to the ten virgins. They all went forth to meet the bridegroom; but "Now the bridegroom tarrying, they all grew heavy and slept" Matthew 25:5; but there was an awakening, and they arose and trimmed their torches, five had the oil -- they were ready; and "the ones that were ready went in with him" Matthew 25:10; that would synchronise with the bride in Revelation 22. The awakening cry was, "Behold, the bridegroom; go forth to meet him", Matthew 25:6. The word 'cometh' should not be there, it is a presentation of Himself. So, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the Root and Offspring of David, the bright [and] morning Star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:16. The way it reads is very beautiful. The conjunction is to show that the desired result is already there. The Lord is there in faithfulness presenting Himself as He was at the beginning. What He was at the outset of the assembly, He is at the end; but the conjunction shows that the assembly is in full response to the presentation of Himself; "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:17. The result is complete.
B.T.F. Is the point in this chapter the present enjoyment of the rest of God?
J.T. I think it is that we should enter into it: "Let us therefore use diligence to enter into that rest, that no one may fall after the same example of not hearkening to the word". It is more that we should go on to the end. We have in verse 6 of chapter 3, "Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end", Hebrews 3:6. And again, in verse 14, "For we are become companions of the Christ if indeed we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end", Hebrews 3:14.
The reference is to that which was presented to the children of Israel at Kadesh in order that they might enter into the land. It would show that God's objective for us is, that we should go on to His full purpose for us; not only as a matter of present enjoyment, but that we should go on to the end. We must see to it that we do not come short of it.
C.B. That would mean more than the forgiveness of sins.
J.T. It says: "We have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also".
A.F.M. Those glad tidings would include the thought of rest.
J.T. They refer here to the report the spies brought back from the land.
A.F.M. I wondered if the glad tidings included the thought of their deliverance from Egypt -- their being brought out and in -- but it may refer to what you say: to the word the spies brought back of the land itself.
A.N.W. They were all supposed to be in the good of forgiveness of sins; and the overthrow of Pharaoh was accomplished.
C.B. There are so many who stop short and do not go on to God's thoughts.
J.T. The glad tidings we have here refer to the purpose of God for us after we have known deliverance from the world. It was at the end of the eleven days' journey from Horeb to Kadesh that the glad tidings of the land were presented to them, not only by Caleb and Joshua, but by all the spies. None of them denied the fruitfulness of the land; so the question was, whether the people would hearken to the word.
F.L. That is very clear. Not only did they have the word of the spies as to the fruitfulness of the land and the promise of God to bear it out; but there was also fruitfulness itself seen in the bunch of grapes that was brought back by the spies, speaking of the exceeding riches of the land. So that lack of faith was the only thing that prevented their entering in. It was not a question of their coming out but of their going in.
J.T. Yes. They were shown the fruit of the land. The name given to the valley of Eshcol inferred that the grapes which grew there gave character to it. It was a valley of grapes: "that place was called the valley of the bunch of grapes, because of the grapes which the children of Israel had cut down there", Numbers 13:24. See Numbers 13:24, and footnote in New Translation.
Beside grapes, they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs. There was variety of fruit in the land, and the testimony of this was brought back to them: so the point was whether they would hearken.
F.L. Whether they would go in. What was presented to them in Egypt was, whether they would come out. As far as the purpose of God was concerned He brought them out and in; but faith was operative
in those who embraced the purpose of God, and no farther. So it held good that they were brought out and in; but those who fell in the wilderness, fell because they lacked faith, and that is the point before us.
J.McD. How does this apply to us now?
J.T. The point is, that the Holy Spirit says, "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts". It reads: "As says the Holy Spirit". It is not that He said, but He says. Although some one who wrote the Psalm long before said it, it has a present voice to us, so we should not turn away and harden our hearts, but embrace all that God presents to us in the way of glad tidings. Not only that which we have already, but what there is in the way of purpose for us -- what God has for us in His love -- that which "eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God hath revealed to us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:9,10. The question is, Am I mixing that with faith?
A.F.M. So the rest of God (reached by faith) would have reference to the consummation of God's purpose in regard to us, the land being its sphere.
J.T. Yes. It is cessation from labour.
A.R.S. Joshua's and Caleb's report was one that would establish confidence in the hearts of the people to go into the land.
J.T. All the spies joined in the testimony as to the fruitfulness of the land, which put the people under responsibility. Then, "Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up boldly, and possess it; for we are well able to do it", Numbers 13:30. But the ten join in with the voice of the people and call attention to the size of the inhabitants, and the whole assembly lifted up their voices and cried and
wept. Then Joshua and Caleb come forward. It was a crisis, and the Holy Spirit raised up a standard against the tide of evil that was coming in. Joshua and Caleb rent their garments and said unitedly: "The land, which we passed through to search it out, is a very, very good land. If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land, and give it to us, a land that flows with milk and honey", Numbers 14:7,8. That was a beautiful word for them. There was, on the one hand, what they all agreed to, namely, the fruitfulness of the land; but there was added this testimony: "If Jehovah delight in us, he will bring us into this land, and give it to us", Numbers 14:8. Joshua and Caleb presented this to the people but it was refused. It was not simply Moses speaking authoritatively; it is the testimony of those who had been there and had taken account of things by faith; hence, the people were now placed under serious responsibility as to whether they would accept it. We know they did not. Numbers 14 shows us what is referred to here, and that God was wrath with the people; but in chapter 15 He says, "When ye come into the land of your dwellings, which I give unto you", Numbers 15:2. Then He says, "When ye come into the land whither I bring you", Numbers 15:18. Meaning that, on the one hand, they would come into it by faith; but, on the other hand, they would be brought into it by power. On the line of purpose we are brought into it; but, on the line of faith and exercise we come into it. The bringing in agrees with the testimony of Joshua and Caleb. God has undertaken to bring us in and He will do it.
F.L. The light they had when they first came out, as expressed in Exodus 15, is spoken of as a thing accomplished. It does not permit of the idea of failure; but, when it comes to experimentally passing through the thing, it is said in 1 Corinthians 10, "yet God was not pleased with the most of them for they were strewed in the desert", 1 Corinthians 10:5.
Would you not emphasise the importance of listening to the voice of the Spirit? One is impressed that in the confused state of things existing in Christendom the only possible hope of recovery is to take heed to the present voice of the Holy Spirit: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", Revelation 2. It is what the Spirit says.
J.T. In the addresses to the assemblies, there is what the Lord says, which is given to us. The actual things are recorded. His authority is asserted in the assemblies; but what the Spirit says is not recorded because, I apprehend, it would depend upon conditions. The injunction there is not to hear what the Lord says -- of this we are told, but "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", Revelation 2:11. The Spirit has taken up a very lowly place here: The Lord said, "Whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come", Matthew 12:32. Implying, amongst other things, I think, that the Holy Spirit having taken up this very lowly place, would be exposed to insult in taking up, as He does, persons of humble origin, and altogether different from what man might expect. The Holy Spirit is therefore exposed to peculiar reproach and insult, hence the exhortation is especially important. We are to hear what He has to say. What the Lord says in Revelation 2 and 3 is official, and we are told what He says; but with the Spirit it is not exactly official, and you can never say just how He may cause His voice to be heard. One has often been encouraged by the word in Zechariah: "So the poor of the flock that gave heed to me knew that it was the word of Jehovah", Zechariah 11:11. The voice of the Spirit will be discerned by those who are in that position, characteristically -- "the poor of the flock".
F.L. We have the poor of the flock in Zechariah, and also the "sons of oil". The gold is ministered through these sons of oil. It is not that the Holy Spirit will give new revelations -- the revelation is complete -- but as to what He will do, or whom He will take up, as suited to the moment, that is His prerogative, and sovereignty. We cannot be led aright unless we attend to what the Spirit says.
J.T. The Psalms give us the experience of those who respond to the revelation of the Pentateuch. The five books of the Psalms correspond in that way to the five books of Moses which are authoritative; the Psalms are experimental. It is not a question in them of the person who speaks (that is necessary where the communication is official), but of the experience he has. So it is the voice of the Spirit you get here in Psalm 95, and it is a question of the experience of the one who speaks.
A.F.M. It was a serious thing for the people to refuse to hearken to the voice of Joshua and Caleb. It says they did not hearken to the word.
J.T. Joshua and Caleb came in on the same line as Psalm 95 -- that of experience. They had been into the land. The Holy Spirit is never at a loss for a vessel. If there is experience with God, He uses such an one through whom to speak.
F.L. Referring again to Zechariah, the "sons of oil" are suggestive of the Holy Spirit working through men.
J.T. The use of the word 'sons' there is suggestive. "Sons of oil" would suggest that the vessels are intelligent and sympathetic in the thing. They are not simply pipes.
F.L. About this rest, will you give it a present application?
J.T. It refers to what God has reached in Christ. He has reached finality -- the end of His labour in Christ. It is in that way we arrive at it in our souls.
It is the apprehension of Christ before God as the One who accomplished all His will.
F.L. The sabbath, as we are brought to know and appreciate it, is really Christ, is it not? I was thinking in that connection of the end of Matthew 11. The Lord turns to the Father in the deep and precious understanding which existed between them, and then turns to the disciples and says: "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest", Matthew 11:28. Then at the beginning of chapter 12, He takes the place of "Lord of the Sabbath", Matthew 12:8. We now reach the sabbath in Christ.
J.T. God rested in Christ. It could safely be said that God's sabbath was Christ. In the unfolding of the pattern of the tabernacle on the mount, we have at the end, the injunction that they should keep the sabbath, for it was the day in which God rested and was refreshed, referring to what had been disclosed. There were unfolded on the mount the varied glories of Christ, as the One who would carry out the will of God here, the end of which would yield refreshment for God.
B.T.F. Where would you place the people who turned back today?
J.T. I think their position is that of Christendom; it has turned back. In chapter 2 of our epistle you get a slipping away from what is presented in the "great salvation"(Hebrews 2:3); but here the danger was, of not going in -- they do not go on.
B.T.F. Many souls enjoy the gospel, but go no further than that.
J.T. That is so. This chapter is for such: indeed, for all of us in that way. "We which have believed (that is, Christians characteristically) do enter into rest". It is not that we should; but we do. "We which have believed do enter into rest".
J.McD. "We which have believed", does not include every believer, does it?
J.T. It is characteristic. "We enter into the
rest who have believed", that is, we are enterers. Believers are characteristically such.
F.L. One might point out that the name Jesus in verse 8, should read, Joshua. It had reference to what Joshua did in going across the Jordan.
J.McD. There was great danger of some of these believers not entering into the rest.
J.T. He is dealing here with the great Christian profession. Everyone who professes to be a Christian is included in this address. All believers do not enter in; but, then, the question arises, What is a believer? Believers enter in -- that is a thing to lay hold of. There are many who are nominally believers, when the Lord was here many believed on Him because of His miracles, but He did not commit Himself to them; see John 2. They were not believers in the sense in which the word is used here. Joshua and Caleb represent the idea perfectly. A believer, characteristically, is one who believes the testimony in whatever way it may be presented. He does not restrict himself to any set of doctrines, he is ready to believe all that God says. Like the man at Capernaum recorded in John 4, who believed -- he was a characteristic believer. If Paul, although not one of the twelve, had gone to Capernaum, he would have believed his testimony. He would not confine himself to the twelve, but would accept whatever feature of the testimony was being presented.
D.M.R. A believer would be one who would give attention to the Spirit.
J.T. He is open to receive the word.
J.E.H. The New Translation renders it: "Who had not hearkened to the word", Hebrews 3:18
J.T. That is the whole point. What is God saying? The characteristic believer will hearken to what God says, "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed on him", John 2:11.
F.L. The principle on which we are brought to God -- that of faith -- is the principle which applies in equal power to every day. So the word is, "Today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts". Not that you believed something a number of years ago, or even yesterday, but the word specifically is, "Today". What day? This day. A believer is not one who is reputed to have believed something at some time, abandoned it and gone adrift; he is a believer today, and goes on to the end.
J.T. The thing is not to be an unbeliever in not hearkening to the word. That was what brought about the destruction of the Israelites in the wilderness. Hearkening to the word would be going in for what is presented.
A.N.W. As long as we are receptive there is hope, no matter if we have not gone very far. There may yet be Sihon and Og to overcome, but such an one would not be classed as an unbeliever as long as his heart is hearkening.
J.T. An unbeliever is one who continues to refuse the word; he may refuse it because of some secondary consideration. God is looking at his heart, sees it is being hardened and is warning him with a view to recovery. That is the point here.
B.T.F. Could you properly introduce the two and a half tribes here?
J.T. It does not refer to that period of the people's history, but to Kadesh-barnea, to their being brought up to where the spies brought back the testimony of the land. The two and a half tribes fell short in a measure; but they did not fall in the wilderness. They were regarded as God's people and under His protection, and three of the cities of refuge were appointed in their territory; but this is a definite hardening of the heart.
F.L. If one tries to get the present application of it, do you not think that it begins by our becoming
selective in our belief? Take Christendom, they will select, in the midst of the confusion, that this should be observed and the other be dropped out; that leads to a hardening of the conscience and they do not enter in, for they do not hearken to the word. The word must be authoritative with us, and must do its work, for it is "living and operative, and sharper than any two edged sword".
J.T. Take the Romish system, which maintains that the church speaks; there are councils, etc., convened to determine what shall, or shall not be effected. Then with the Reformation there were set doctrines or principles laid down, that were selective. Whereas the truth of Christianity is that the Holy Spirit speaks and continues speaking, and those who believe listen to what He says. They turn away from Romish pretensions, and also from selective creeds, and are open in mind, like the believing man of Capernaum in John 4.
F.L. The shipwreck of Protestantism really came about by selecting doctrines, applying reasonings, and not listening to the present voice of the Spirit. It has a name to live but is dead because of this.
A.F.M. In contrast to that we have "the confession" here. That would embrace all that is in the mind of the Lord and of the Spirit to present.
J.T. Not the Westminster Confession -- that is not comprehensive enough! "The Apostle and High Priest of our confession", Hebrews 3:1. "Our confession" involves the whole revelation of God, nothing less than that, and those who believe are prepared for all of it. One does not assume that one has it all; we have scarcely touched it; but the thing is to be prepared for the wonderful things contained in it.
A.N.W. The first day I committed my soul to Christ, in principle, I reached God's rest.
J.T. God has reached His rest in Christ, and in principle the believer has.
A.N.W. If that is maintained in the soul, your ear is ready for further glad tidings -- you hearken to the word.
F.L. The way in which verse 12 comes in is significant, is it not? That is in its supremacy and vitality. It merges from "the word" to the Person -- a divine Person.
J.T. I was thinking of the two things that predominate: the word of God and the priesthood of Christ. We have been referring to what happened historically -- there was the church of Rome, then the different Protestant bodies. Christians were in bondage in one way or another, and no progress was made toward the final end. Well, the word of God came in. It was sharper than any two-edged sword. It penetrated to the very core of Christendom. Now the question is, How are we to stand in regard to it? It exposes everything as it is. We are made to stand by the priesthood of Christ; and so Christians do not need the support of the State. His priesthood is all you need -- He stands by you. "Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession". It is in the knowledge of the Priest you can do that.
B.T.F. Why does it bring in "who has passed through the heavens"?
J.T. To emphasise His personal greatness.
B.T.F. He is there administering and exercising His priestly office in regard to us in the wilderness.
J.T. Quite. One has noticed that at the end of the book of Judges, chapter 18, you have Jehonathan, the grandson of Moses, ministering in an idolatrous system in the tribe of Dan -- that is one position. Then in chapter 20 you have Phinehas in the house of God, that is another position. It says, "And the children of Israel inquired of Jehovah (and the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, and Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, stood
before it in those days)", Judges 20:27,28. Now these are the two positions: the public profession had degenerated into idolatry, and the grandson of Moses was supporting it. Whereas, in Phinehas you have the man who was standing for God before the ark. This Phinehas was pointed out in Exodus 6, and by his personal devotedness he secured the priesthood for ever. Before you have the deliverance of the people out of Egypt this remarkable man, is brought to light, and later, in a crisis through his personal devotedness to God, he secured the everlasting priesthood. Many years later, when things had degenerated, and the grandson of Moses was ministering in Dan, this man was standing before the ark of God in the house of God. Phinehas typifies what you have here. It is such a Priest as that, Jesus, the Son of God, who has passed through the heavens; so you hold fast the confession, for He will support you in it.
A.F.M. Our great High Priest has been tried in like manner -- "tempted in all things in like manner". We are empowered by Him to stand because "he is able to succour them that are tempted", Hebrews 2:18.
F.L. What is called "the faith" in Timothy and Jude is the same as "the confession" here. We get it in chapter 3, "The Apostle and High Priest of our confession",(Hebrews 3:1); and in our chapter, "Let us hold fast the confession". There is the idea of Christ, personally, as the great Apostle and Priest, and you confess Him; confessing Him, you confess the whole system which is inherent in Him and which He brings to pass.
J.T. The "Apostle" is dropped after being introduced in chapter 3. What we need is the Priest to enable us to stand. That is what is so beautiful about Phinehas -- he stood before the ark of God in those dreadful days.
F.L. In the days of Malachi that was not forgotten.
In the closing of the Old Testament that is what shines out; Malachi 2:4 - 7.
D.M.R. That would have a bearing on us today, would it not?
J.T. I think the two things have come into prominence. The word of God has been brought to bear on all this darkness. It is bad enough to be in darkness; but when it holds your conscience how terrible! "Who has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love", Colossians 1:13. There are those who are held by the authority of it. When false teaching is accepted it has a hold on one; but He delivers from the authority of darkness. The word of God having been brought to bear on all these things has exposed them, and the people of God have been delivered from them; but how am I to stand? The next thing is the priesthood of Christ.
A.F.M. The word of God coming being presented after the Sardis phase of things had failed, would take specific form in men, would you not think? It was not simply an open Bible.
J.T. I think it would be in those who ministered it. "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God",(Hebrews 13:7) -- the Hebrew leaders. We have leaders too -- those who have spoken to us the word of God, and it has exposed everything for us, so we have escaped the authority of darkness. But the question now is, how are we to stand in the maintenance of the light that has come to us? The priesthood of Christ enables us to do it.
F.L. The fact that the word is living and operative is proved in that it produces life and vitality.
J.T. The living character of it is in the Person from whom it comes.
A.N.W. "Jesus, the Son of God".
J.T. "Having therefore a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of
God, let us hold fast the confession. For we have not a High Priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart. Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help". That is, instead of the support of the state, or whatever it may be that people rest in, you "find grace for seasonable help".
J.T. Yes. You come to the throne of grace for seasonable help.
D.M.R. As to the support you get from the Lord, what did you imply was set forth in Phinehas?
J.T. He secured the priesthood because he took the javelin at a critical time (Numbers 25:7, 8), he thought for God -- he was faithful. I suppose that it should come home to each of us as to whether we have learned to use the javelin, or the sword.
When the golden calf was made Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, "Who is on the Lord's side? let him come unto me", Exodus 32:26. And all the sons of Levi came to Moses, and each man took his sword and slew his brother. In that way he was sanctified. Levi knew not his father or his mother -- he disowned natural claims for the Lord's sake. I think Levi represents that in the fullest possible way. So in a day of decline you see Phinehas standing before the ark in the house of God which, it seems to me, corresponds in a striking way with the present moment. The truth of the house of God has come to light, which involves that the Holy Spirit speaks, and the priesthood supports us in it.
F.L. Did I understand someone to say that the throne of grace was a question of prayer? I thought it was wider than prayer.
J.T. Here we are encouraged to come to it.
J.E.H. Why is it, "Jesus, the Son of God" here, not Christ.
J.T. The Man is more in evidence when you come to priesthood -- His personal sympathies and affections.
F.L. How the thought of the Priest magnifies and expands in one's mind! It is Jesus; but it is the Son of God, and as the Son of God it embraces every expression of His fulness and glory, and the Priest is such an One. The One who made the universe and will fill the world by and by; He is the Priest. You go out and experience His sympathy and support.
J.T. We are naturally timid. The Hebrew Christians would be particularly exposed to legal fear, and the epistle is to remove that and give a sense that they had a link with this great One who had "passed through the heavens".
F.L. It removes all sense of disparity also: "for both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren", Hebrews 2:11. So, if you are delivered from legality and all carnality, and have no sense of disparity, you come with a holy boldness.
J.T. The position here is what we should take up in our meetings for prayer, as well as individually. The confession has to be held through the support which comes to us through prayer. The confession is the full truth, the whole range of it: you hold it fast and do not let it go. The enemy seeks to deprive us of certain features of the truth, but you hold all of it fast, in the light of this wonderful throne and the wonderful Person who is there.
A.F.M. All the power of the enemy was arrayed against the Lord when here; but He used the throne, so to say -- He was marked by prayer. Now He has gone on high and we can approach the throne with boldness in view of His support. He will enable us to stand so that we "hold fast the confession".
B.T.F. Would you say a word more about the prayer meeting?
J.T. Here we have the word of God and the Priest; but, in order to get the good of the Priest, you have to bring in prayer. So you go boldly to the throne of grace to obtain mercy and find grace. The throne is universal, and the administration is universal, but I have to get the things, and so I pray. "Ask and ye shall receive", John 16:24.
J.T. Surely. It is the light in which we are together, too.
B.T.F. You were speaking of the throne, and in that connection we have: "perfect love casts out fear", 1 John 4:18. Then you get in Paul an instance of individual prayer when he besought the Lord thrice, and received the answer. "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness", 2 Corinthians 12:8, 9.
J.T. You get also in Paul the Lord standing by him. "The Lord stood by him", Acts 23:11. That is the thing.
F.L. That gives the thought I had, that the throne of grace was a wider thought than prayer. Paul got into the position he was in, to a certain extent because he did not heed the voice of the Spirit, but such is the meaning of the throne of grace that, when he was suffering the consequences of that, the Lord comes and stands by him, and everything is adjusted and set right in Paul's spirit -- he can go through everything now.
J.T. The throne is available through prayer. Whatever discrepancy there was in Paul, he was set for the testimony. "As thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome", Acts 23:11.
Ques. Why is the word 'throne' used?
J.T. The Jews were well acquainted with the thought of a throne. They knew what the throne of
David meant, and what the mercy seat in the holiest meant; this is an allusion to that. The Christian economy centres in a throne of grace and it is unlimited -- it is absolute. Think of grace being absolute, it is without any restrictions.
A.N.W. Who is for you when you approach the throne?
J.T. God; but I approach in the light of the Priest being there. We must dismiss natural thoughts. I think the throne strengthens the heart inasmuch as it is absolute, but I draw near in the sense that there is that which is in my favour, grace. Even though I may have failed, it does not alter the throne. So you draw near in the light of that and obtain help.
J.S. "That we may receive mercy".
F.L. Would you say a word as to mercy and grace?
J.T. One has often felt that mercy comes as a surprise sometimes -- you do not expect that which happens. Mercy is shown in connection with our circumstances, and one is agreeably surprised by the way God comes in as we traverse the path of faith. You may ask for certain things; but mercy is what God devises.
J.McD. God showed Israel great grace; but He is going to bring them in by and by on the ground of mercy.
J.T. One has seen it exemplified in the history of God's people. David was raised up in mercy; but I would refer particularly to Saul of Tarsus. In his case it was quite unexpected; it was what God had devised.
F.L. "I obtained mercy", (1 Timothy 1:13) Paul said afterwards.
J.T. He had no claim on it. Certainly the saints at Jerusalem would never think of, nor expect, a man like Saul to come in as he did amongst them. Mercy is that which springs from God's own mind and heart.
P. Is it generally individual?
J.T. It is equally collective. God acts in His own sovereign way; and things happen which one would never imagine. There are certain things you know you need, and feel you must have; but God says, I will give you something you never thought of.
D.M.R. Paul and Silas experienced mercy in the prison at Philippi.
J.T. They did not expect that; but think of what happened! At midnight an earthquake -- the prison doors opened; the jailor himself secured for God, and his whole house! That is what God can do. Those who know God, although they do not know what He will do, expect He will do just such things as that.
A.F.M. Paul, in another connection, did not lose the thorn, but got the grace.
J.T. It was grace there. Mercy might have removed the thorn; but grace supported him with it. Mercy comes out particularly after failure: the responsible element having broken down. It is brought in in Exodus 33, and pre-eminently in David, who stands out as a striking example of the mercy of God.
These things which occur help us immensely. God always has something in reserve and, I think, mercy covers that. There are things which you do not expect. Jesus "himself knew what he would do" (John 6:6); they did not know, and you go to God in the knowledge that He knows well what He will do. This applies individually, or in view of the collective position. Such things become a great help. See how this was exemplified in Saul, afterwards Paul! The saints had not expected his conversion evidently, but the Lord brought him in.
J.S. They might have asked for his removal.
J.T. See what an asset he was afterwards!
F.L. "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ [by grace ye are saved]" Ephesians 2:4,5.
J.T. You will notice that, whilst we are enjoined to consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, the epistle deals mainly with the High Priest.
A.F.M. Chapter 1 gives practically all the instruction we have of the Apostle; what follows is an opening up of the Priest until we come to chapter 10.
C.B. Would it convey the thought that the system was now to be maintained after being inaugurated?
J.T. Yes. Much is made of the priesthood in view of the maintenance of what is inaugurated by the Apostle.
F.L. Does not the Apostle go on to some extent into chapter 2? Then the thought of the Priest comes in.
J.T. Yes. The first four verses of chapter 2 and the early verses of chapter 3.
A.N.W. What is there in the Old Testament that suggests apostleship? One can easily trace priesthood; what is there besides Moses as the apostle?
J.T. An apostle is one sent out from God. In Exodus 3 it says, "Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt ... Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses. Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: ... Go, and gather the children of Israel together, and say unto them, The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you
in Egypt: And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of Canaanites", Exodus 3. I think there you have his apostolic commission, and what may be observed is that God, in commissioning Moses says in verse 6 of this chapter, "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" -- "thy father", meaning that he had a personal link with the patriarch. And further, that fresh communications (what He was about to say, involving "I AM" which was a present thought), were linked with what had been given to the fathers. "I AM", expressing what God is at the present time, involves present ministry. "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", refer to past ministry, or testimony, but all is linked together in the fresh ministry that is now given to Moses.
F.L. Would the thought of the apostle in the Old Testament go as far as the unfolding of that aspect of the house of God over which Moses was set, and therefore go on to resurrection ground? To Exodus 15, for instance, where we get the expression of divine purpose. Would we find apostleship there?
A.N.W. The idea in apostleship is one sent direct with fresh communications.
J.T. Paul said: "Am I not an apostle? ... Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1. There we have: "that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you", 1 John 1:3. That, I think, conveys the thought of apostleship.
F.L. Would the attitude of Moses in Leviticus 1, be an example of his apostleship? "The Lord called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel", Leviticus 1:1.
J.T. Yes. John's gospel emphasises that: "there was a man sent from God, his name John", John 1:6
That was the idea, although John was not called an apostle; but what the Lord cites of Himself is: "I came forth from God; ... for neither am I come of myself, but he has sent me", John 8:42. So that the relation between Him and Moses seems to be very intimate. Exodus 3 is the beginning of it.
D.M.R. Would Exodus 39 indicate that the people accepted him as the apostle? They were to make everything according to all that the Lord commanded Moses, and it says: "And Moses did look upon all the work, and behold, they had done it as the Lord had commanded, even so had they done it: and Moses blessed them", Exodus 39:43.
J.T. You have it in Exodus 14"The people feared the Lord, and believed the Lord, and his servant Moses", Exodus 14:31.
W.H.C. So an apostle is one who comes out from God with the mind of God in connection with the inauguration of something new.
J.T. The Name, "I AM" was new. It suggests God as ever existing and present. It might be said, How can you connect what is past with that, because the patriarchs are dead? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead. This is where the great truth of resurrection comes in -- the past is linked with the present -- because God is "not the God of the dead, but the God of the living", Mark 12:27. We are not supposed to be dead, nor is it contemplated that we should die. Christianity is set up in life, and all is linked with the past because God is "the God of the living". This was cited to the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection. The present is "I AM"; but there is the past, that is brought in because God is "the God of the living"; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob live to God on the principle of resurrection.
F.L. Take the thought of the prophet. Prophetic ministry is light from God brought to bear on what
already exists, exercising the conscience. It is distinct from the apostle, or the priest.
J.T. It invariably contemplates departure.
F.L. Therefore recovery and revival. The exercise of the conscience is with the prophet.
D.M.R. You were saying there is more detail in this epistle about the Priest than the Apostle. Would that be because the subject of the holiest is in view?
J.T. That we are to approach God. So Exodus 28 introduces the great subject of priesthood. Earlier God had said to Moses: "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh", Exodus 7:1. It was a remarkable thing that a man on earth should be constituted a god. "And Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet", Exodus 7:1. It was a wonderful thing that God should take up a shepherd in the wilderness, and make him a god!
F.L. What does that convey to you?
J.T. He represented God in the power that he used, and the words he spoke. God was there representatively before Pharaoh's eyes: "And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to show in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth", Exodus 9:16.
When Moses stood before Pharaoh he had the prophet by his side. Aaron acted with him in that capacity; but Aaron in Exodus 28 is constituted formally a priest: the prophet becomes the priest, and the point was, "that he may serve me as a priest", Exodus 28:1. His service in Egypt was over at that particular time, there was no longer need for that; but there was need for the sustaining of what was set up by Moses.
D.M.R. The word is: "Aaron ... and his sons with him", Exodus 28:1.
J.T. His sons are with him. There were no sons with him in his prophetic ministry; but sons are necessary in the service of priesthood.
F.L. The Lord in the gospel of John quotes from
Psalm 82 when He said: "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came", John 10:35. I was wondering if the Lord brought that in in the same connection, and with the same moral import as Moses when sent to Pharaoh with Aaron.
J.T. That is the point in John's gospel. So he says in his first epistle, "he is the true God", 1 John 5:20. The gospel sets before us that it was God Himself. "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father", John 14:9. But the position of Aaron as priest comes in, in Exodus 28, with the thought in view that he should minister unto God in that office. So in the genealogy given in chapter 6 both Moses and Aaron are connected, "This is that Aaron and Moses", Exodus 6:26. But then, it goes beyond that in Aaron's case for we have Eleazar and Phinehas; but nothing is said there about Moses' posterity because Moses is the apostle but the priesthood goes beyond Aaron, so that there is adequate testimony to the extension of that side. And the last-named son, Phinehas, has the priesthood forever; he secures it because of his personal devoted-ness, and not because of his being Aaron's grandson. It is said in the book of Judges that he stood before the ark in those days -- days of apostasy -- this one priest stood and supported the testimony; chapter 20:27,28.
A.F.M. Moses' grandson stood at the same time!
J.T. Yes, but as an apostate priest.
F.L. With Phinehas, the priest, there is a suggestion of his carrying right through to Christ. Something like John at the end of his gospel: "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" John 21:22,23. He is an abiding one right through. So Phinehas is brought into view and is seen, in moral characteristics in Malachi and I suppose, can be perceived in Zacharias in Luke 1, and so comes through up to Christ.
A.F.M. In the opening verses of our chapter the
great point about the priest is that he should be taken from amongst men -- men are in view Godward.
J.T. Taken by a definite calling: "No one takes the honour to himself but as called by God". What came out, in the apostasy of the priest who ministered in Dan was, that the man Jehonathan, took the honour upon himself; Judges 18:30. That is like the modern clerical system: men have taken the honour upon themselves.
A.F.M. I suppose, according to verse 5 of this chapter, there is what is prior to the priesthood. The Lord in Psalm 2 is addressed by Jehovah as "Son" -- "Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee", Psalm 2:7. Then in Psalm 110"Thou art priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec", Psalm 110:4. He must have links with God in sonship in view of priesthood.
J.T. Priesthood is in the Son. God addresses Him as Son in chapter 1, and then here: "Thou art a priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedec". He is addressed by God as High Priest according to that order.
B.T.F. Have you two orders of priesthood here -- the Aaronic and that of Melchisedec?
J.T. Aaron represents the function that the Lord exercises today. He is brought in here to show that the Lord recognised the principle of the priest being called. "And no one takes the honour to himself but as called by God, even as Aaron also. Thus the Christ also has not glorified himself to be made a High Priest; but he who had said to him, Thou art my Son, I have today begotten thee. Even as also in another place he says, Thou art a Priest forever according to the order of Melchisedec". The Lord did not constitute Himself a High Priest -- He was called to it.
D.M.R. Did not Korah, Dathan and Abiram fail in not apprehending the truth contained in these first four verses? They rose up, with others, against Moses
and Aaron, and said to them, "Ye take too much upon you, ... wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?" Numbers 16:2,3.
J.T. "Ye take too much upon you", Numbers 16:2,3. Their error lay in desiring to assume the priesthood because they were Levites. We are priests because we are sons, not because we are servants. Because they were Levites they assumed to be priests; but our passage says: "No one takes the honour to himself but as called by God, even as Aaron also". Korah and his company were disregarding the fact that Aaron was called by God.
A.F.M. The attestation of the priesthood was made in connection with the twelve rods being laid up in the tabernacle; by this means it was established by God who the true priest was. Aaron's rod budded, bloomed blossoms and yielded almonds.
J.T. So that the bulwark against such an uprising is life. To make the murmurings of the children of Israel to cease, God says. And further: "Bring Aaron's staff again before the testimony, to be kept as a token for the sons of rebellion, that thou mayest put an end to their murmurings before me, that they may not die", Numbers 17.
W.L.P. What is the honour which goes beyond our being Christians? We are called with such a holy calling. What is necessary beyond that to be a priest?
F.L. It gives us an insight into the beautiful spirit of subjection which was in Christ. When here upon earth He well knew He was indicated as the great High Priest; yet He allows all His days to pass and never claims the priesthood. When He came to the temple, which He habituated, He went only into the outer courts, never into the holy place nor holiest of all. What subjection of spirit! What patience! Until the moment when God should call Him.
J.T. "Thus the Christ also has not glorified himself to be made a High Priest".
A.R.S. Would His waiting for the call of God be another example of His dependence?
J.T. It was the recognition that it was for God to select His Priest, and to designate the order also. The order involved the divinity of the Lord. Aaron was called, but not according to the order of Melchisedec. Melchisedec is typically a divine Person, as chapter 7 of this epistle shows.
B.T.F. Would you say a word regarding the force of the Apostle and High Priest being in one glorious Person?
J.T. It insures against any possibility of disagreement or disintegration, if you have both in one Person. Even with Aaron and Moses there was a serious disagreement, such indeed as might have brought about the dissolution of the system had God not come in. Miriam and Aaron had rebelled against Moses, and said: "Has Jehovah indeed spoken only to Moses? Has he not also spoken to us?" Numbers 12:2. Here it was not the priesthood, but the apostleship they were claiming. It should be noticed that in this connection the Spirit does not speak of the official, or servant Moses, but of "the man Moses". The point was that these two persons should have known that man. Others might have known him officially as he sat judging the people, etc., but Miriam and Aaron should have known the man. Miriam was considerably older, and Aaron was two years older than Moses; so that they both knew him from his infancy. The Spirit, therefore, adds what is so beautiful about him: "But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth" Numbers 12:3; and God vindicated him. See Numbers 12.
A.F.M. Was not the Lord's ministry on earth priestly in character, as, for instance, the parable of Luke 10?
J.T. That was moral. He came where the man was, but He had no official place. It says, "A certain Samaritan", Luke 10:33. He was just a Samaritan; but what He did was priestly work. Indeed, throughout Luke's gospel His service is of that character, which shows that you must have the moral before you can have the official.
F.L. That is true from Genesis 4. There we see the priesthood in its moral aspect of approach to God in Abel. Then in Abram rescuing his brother Lot. Morally the priesthood existed before the priest himself was brought into view. So in the gospel. The blessed Lord fulfilled almost every function of the priest, even of the great priest; but the calling was not yet made evident.
J.T. He qualified before He was officially recognised.
A.N.W. When would you say the Lord's personal apostleship started?
J.T. In Luke 4"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings to the poor; he has sent me to preach to captives deliverance, and to the blind sight, to send forth the crushed delivered, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord", Luke 4:18.
J.T. Before that He was recognised.
F.L. I suppose His recognition at His baptism would cover all the moral glories of His Person, Prophet, Priest and King -- all that He was in the fulness of His Person was covered in His baptism and anointing; but then, the separate characteristics are afterwards unfolded, for instance, the apostleship in Luke 4, and the Priest in His ministrations.
C.A.M. Would you say that His having this place accorded Him by God was in answer to what He was morally here?
J.T. It was due to God that the moral should be
there. What we have here would refer to Him in resurrection. "If then indeed he were here upon earth, he would not even be a priest" (Hebrews 8:4), so the word is a strong one, "Addressed by God", or "saluted of God as High Priest according to the order of Melchisedec". God well knew what was there; but the salutation on His part is, "Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedec". That would be to Christ as risen.
A.F.M. The title conferred by God showed there was in Him all that was morally great to support it.
J.T. It is well to notice that not only is He recognised as High Priest, but His order is designated -- the order in which He is to appear -- that also is God's doing. He designates Him as High Priest, but also as of the order of Melchisedec. Chapter 7 will disclose to us what God had in mind in that designation.
A.R.S. In the ordinary course of events the priest was taken from the tribe of Levi, but did not continue; the High Priest after the order of Melchisedec continues forever, showing, I suppose, the greatness of His Person.
J.T. What comes out in this chapter is not so much the greatness of His Person as the moral side. Chapter 7 brings before us His greatness; but here it is the moral side; "who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears (and having been heard because of his piety); though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered; and having been perfected, became to all them that obey him, Author of eternal salvation". It is as having been perfected; but prior to that, there is the moral perfection of Christ here upon earth.
F.L. There is something beautiful and very precious about this. "In the days of his flesh", etc., He entered into the depths of suffering, and all that was
involved in His humiliation; but He still waits, and God waits; then resurrection having come in, He is saluted of God. It is as though the King of England might set some personage in the highest position in his Empire; and then in public salute him as put into that position, being qualified and fitted for it by moral worth. There is something beautiful in the contrast: "strong crying and tears" and "saluted of God" in His resurrection.
J.T. It is a wonderful position. In chapter 7 you have fully opened up the personal dignity of "this Melchisedec"; but here you have the mention of the Melchisedec order, and then immediately the moral greatness of Christ in His obedience, and His becoming the Author of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him. So that we are supported by the priesthood for salvation as obedient.
Can anything be more wonderful than that it should be said He learned anything? It brings out the wonderful stoop He made. He who had always commanded, "he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast", Psalm 33:9. He is now found in the position of obedience. It was His moral perfection that led Him to do the bidding of another. "He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned", Isaiah 1:4. It was His daily experience with God. As having taken man's place, He would retain it, and dignify the manhood He had assumed. He dignified it morally. It will be dignified officially, because the race is dignified in its Head being the Son of God; but before that moment, you have displayed in Christ all that man should be to God. That is the force of the word 'found' at His baptism. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (Matthew 3:17); meaning that God had been looking for His delight in others, but did not find it; but He now had found it in Christ. All this was seen in the days of His flesh; but being
perfected, and risen from the dead, He is saluted of God as High Priest, according to the order of Melchisedec.
B.T.F. What you have said is brought out in the Psalms. God's Man was found in Psalm 16 -- the dependent Man.
J.T. That is so. The moral side precedes the official side. Man is reinstated before God in Christ in this moral way.
F.L. Hence the beauty of the choice of the word here that He becomes "The Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him". Those He saves are like Himself. In chapter 2 He is "bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the Leader of their salvation through sufferings", Hebrews 2:10. But here He becomes Author of eternal salvation to all them that obey Him. I think the choice of the word is worthy of note.
A.F.M. "Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up both supplications and entreaties to him who was able to save him out of death, with strong crying and tears (and having been heard because of his piety); though he was Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered". The obedience was complete.
J.T. It would not have been complete unless He had passed all through that! He was heard because of His piety. We could only hope to be heard through another; but He is heard on account of His moral qualifications.
C.A.M. Would you say that He came into this position of obedience to experience what obedience was, in order that we might come into this place through obedience?
J.T. It is so morally that those who are obedient get the good of this great salvation, and of the support of the Priest. You do not get it if you are rebellious. We are sanctified unto the obedience of Christ. That
is the standard God has before Him, and we are sanctified to no less than that.
C.A.M. What impresses me is that we come morally into the good of this through His taking this wonderful place of piety -- the moral glories that come out in Him we come into the good of.
J.T. We are sanctified unto the obedience of Christ. The only One who was ever heard in His own right was Christ -- He was heard on account of His piety. We are heard in virtue of the merits of another who gives us place and standing.
A.N.W. Could a little more be said about His being heard? Gethsemane might suggest He was heard; would Calvary also?
J.T. "Thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns" (Psalm 22:21); that would be when on the cross, but the being heard is also found earlier in John 11. The Lord says, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always; but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me", John 11:41. Then in John 12"Father, glorify thy name", John 12:28. Immediately the word comes, "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again", John 12:28. I think the first glorification was in taking Lazarus out of the grave; and the second was in the taking of Christ out of it.
A.N.W. Is that after Psalm 22:1 was fulfilled?
J.T. After the forsaking He is heard; "from the horns of the buffaloes thou hast answered me", Psalm 22:21 It is there He commits His Spirit to the Father.
A.F.M. Do you connect the hearing in Psalm 22 with what He went through on the cross?
F.L. Gethsemane and the suffering of Christ on the cross were, in a sense, all one.
A.F.M. You would support your remark about the Lord being heard after the forsaking by Luke's gospel?
J.T. Yes. He spoke to the Father after the forsaking in that gospel. It is a subject that opens up a vast field as to the Man who is our Head racially -- not as of the church, but as having taken the place of Head of the race. The more you look into it, the more wonderful it is, since it brings in a race before God on moral grounds first, and then dignifies it in the fact that He is the Son of God. Our part in it, of course, could only be on the ground of redemption.
A.N.W. "Concerning whom we have much to say, and hard to be interpreted in speaking of it, since ye are become dull in hearing".
J.T. It is the full millennial glory the writer has in view. Think of the vast system of glory, and of Christ in His personal dignity, exercising the office of Priest! Think how much could be said about that, and about the Lord Himself in that relation! But few are able to listen, having "become dull in hearing".
A.N.W. Is it ever stated what the writer had to say as referred to in verse 11?
J.T. I think that in chapter 7 the writer returns to the subject; but here he has to rebuke them; he says: "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again, which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness; for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil". They could not, therefore, take in the moral side of what we are speaking. There are those who can speak of the coming glories of Christ; but the first thing is to be able to take in what is moral, which suggests that we have our senses exercised to discern between good and evil. Malachi refers to that: "Then shall ye ... discern between the
righteous and the wicked", Malachi 3:18. If you cannot do that, you can not understand the first principles of the Priest.
F.L. You get the same thing in 1 Corinthians. The apostle could only speak to them as to babes. He was pent up. But then, he brings them under exercise, and in the second epistle He unfolds the things of which He could not speak in the first. So here in our chapter he is pent up; but he brings in a line of exercise, and in chapter 7 turns to the greatness of Christ and goes onward to the way into the holiest in chapter 10. It is not that he does not speak of it.
J.T. But he had to rebuke them, as he would us, if we have not our senses exercised to discern between good and evil. Many take up the book of Revelation, for instance, in a mental way; but the moral must come in before you can take in the meaning of the things it contains. How could any one rightly go through the book without being able to discern between good and evil beforehand?
C.A.M. What you are saying places great value on the whole question of good and evil.
J.T. "The word of righteousness" is the first thing, which, I suppose, we find in the epistle to the Romans. The word of righteousness is that which in Christ disentangles everything here. It is the first thing we need to be skilled in. So that this question of righteousness -- of having our senses exercised -- is of all importance. There is no hope at all of any Christian getting on without it -- having what answers to the five senses and all in full exercise.
A.F.M. It is the habit of a full-grown man, really.
F.L. I suppose, when they take a recruit they exercise him, not only physically, but mentally. Romans is very much on that line. The individual is taken up and put through every necessary training to make him fit for his place in the body. He is then
ready for Colossians. The apostle here says, in principle, you have not got as far as that.
C.A.M. If we had not to start in this way, as unskilled, we could start with the gospels.
F.L. Take Saul of Tarsus -- Paul. He was so wholly surrendered, and subject to the Man in glory, that it was a very short process with him and a very thorough one, whereas, we may take many long years, and never reach but a dim conception of what he reached in a few days.
J.T. Here you have, "solid food belongs to full-grown men". Speaking of the gospels, they present what full-grown men delight in.
Rem. You could not think of anything being left out in this epistle that ought to be in.
J.T. There is nothing left unsaid. You may be sure of that. Although the apostle says he can not say it here, you may be sure everything that should have been said about this Person has been said. The gospels unfold to us the varied glories of Christ; and I think, as we go on a little in the truth, they become more to us. They are written not from the side of our learning -- though abundantly instructive -- but from God's standpoint. If you would have the thing perfectly, He says, you must let Me present it from My own side. The gospels give you that. The epistles present our side, and the full-grown man is the great end to be reached by us in them.
A.F.M. One has observed that young believers love to turn to the gospels. In what order would you suggest that the Scriptures should be taken up in view of becoming full grown?
J.T. First of all, we should heed the word in 2 Timothy 3:16: "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness", 2 Timothy 3:16. Every scripture is, therefore, available to the youngest believer for these things. If the order is described in
detail, I would say the first scripture to read is Romans. That epistle is for adjustment. It takes account of the believer as in the world, and adjusts him in relation to God, and then in relation to his brethren. It incidentally gives light as to the faithfulness of God in regard to His ways with Israel; and also gives an inkling of His purposes. The next epistles would be 1 and 2 Corinthians, having assembly training and order in view. These do not take one out of the wilderness, so that Colossians follows, showing how I am to enter the land. Lastly Ephesians, where the land is opened up to us, and we are made to sit down and contemplate. The gospels present to us the Man who is in the land, Christ, "The old corn of the land" (Joshua 5:12), the One indigenous to that place -- "The Son of man, which is in heaven", John 3:13. The gospels furnish this, and present also the glories of His Person. The field opened up in the gospels is so great it is infinite!
F.L. A most helpful outline. One would point out that it supposes more or less of an acquaintance with the Old Testament scriptures. They were the only scriptures which Timothy knew from a child.
J.T. Luke 24 gives the Lord's division of the Old Testament -- "Law of Moses and prophets and psalms" (Luke 24:44) -- and the great subject matter: "Concerning me".
B.T.F. Would you say that chapter 6 contemplated that some of the Hebrews might slip back again into Judaism?
J.T. I should think some of them had. It says, "and have fallen away".
F.L. They did that with their eyes open, as we would say. They were not ignorant as to the light that had come out in the Person and death of Christ. So to speak, they had acted in that light, and then had turned from it.
J.T. "Once enlightened", it says.
A.F.M. So the chapter is to encourage the going on. It is either going on or going back.
J.T. He carefully distinguishes between the two classes -- the "once enlightened" and the "you". He says: "but we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation".
F.L. There had evidently been a great movement in the light of Christianity. The power of it had affected some intellectually, but not vitally; so the Hebrews that had come into the light of Christianity were divided: those who "have fallen away" and those whom the writer was "persuaded ... better things".
J.T. They had gone a good way. They were "once enlightened" and had "tasted of the heavenly gift". Tasting was an act of their own; not merely that they had heard the gospel, they had tasted the thing. There it says, "have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come". They had tasted all these things.
A.F.M. It shows how far one may go with the
thing outwardly, without the conscience being reached and the heart affected.
J.T. That is what is before us here. In tasting there is opportunity of proving a thing.
F.L. You taste the thing, you like it, and appropriate it; or, you dislike it, and reject it. They were putting Christ in the place of having been tested and then repudiated. It is most solemn.
J.T. They had tasted the new wine; but virtually said, "the old is better", Luke 5:39. They made themselves judges.
A.N.W. "Crucifying for themselves ... the Son of God" is more serious than the historical fact, is it not?
J.T. It is. After they had been enlightened and tasted the thing spoken of as "the heavenly gift" -- not simply the truth of the gospel, but "the heavenly gift" -- it is no longer a sin of ignorance, but one of wilfulness.
D.M.R. There would be no city of refuge for such.
J.T. They were virtually leaving the city of refuge and coming out into the open field.
A.F.M. They do it for themselves; "crucifying for themselves (as they do) the Son of God, and making a show of him". It was not the national thing, as when He was actually crucified, but their individual act now.
F.L. Speaking of the city of refuge, they, in effect, say they have no necessity for such protection, and put themselves outside of its scope, so there is no hope. I was wondering if we do not see a terrible development of this kind of thing in the present day, that is, there has been great enlightenment, but there has developed a vast movement in Christendom repudiating the divinity of Christ, and the necessity
of the atonement, and the like. It is done with their eyes open, and it is ensnaring great numbers.
J.T. I have been thinking much of late of the word in 1 John 2"It is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time", 1 John 2:18. What marks the movement is the "many". "The antichrist", he says, "denies the Father and the Son". He was to be known by that. The numerous antichrists we have to contend with do not come out boldly and deny the Father and the Son; they work insidiously in denying the truth. So we have to discern what is against Christ, not simply worldliness, but what is against Christ. "Now are there many antichrists", he says. Various things have arisen, are developing, and have been developed that are against Christ. It is all very striking.
W.W.M. Would the man in Matthew 22, who was without the wedding garment, be a picture of this?
J.T. Quite. Only these have renounced the truth of Christianity altogether. That man had not done so. He had come in with the guests but disregarded the necessary requirements. He would refer more to those who in Christendom take their places with the true guests but disregard the divine requirements whereas the persons referred to here renounce the thing entirely. They would have said: I have been to your meetings and have heard Peter preach; I have been to your feasts of love, and have read the Scriptures. The apostles' letters, too, I am familiar with, but there is nothing in all this for me.
C.B. "Depart from me, all ye that work iniquity", Matthew 7:23.
J.T. These named in our chapter do not belong to that class, but to those who have renounced the thing. We have to distinguish between those who profess to know the Lord, and recognise His people outwardly, and those who renounce Christianity.
A.F.M. Would you distinguish for us between two forms of evil cited in 1 John? You referred to one -- denying the Father and the Son; but in chapter 4 we have: "Every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that power of the antichrist, of which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world" 1 John 4:3.
J.T. I think the spirits that have gone out into the world in 1 John 4 are not openly opposed. Their aim is to corrupt the truth by denying Jesus Christ come in flesh. They do not deny He has come; but deny that He has come in flesh. They deny the real humanity of the Lord Jesus -- that He was a real Man, as real a Man as any, although ever God in Person.
F.L. That which is referred to by Paul in 1 Timothy 3"Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" 1 Timothy 3. It takes either the side of denying His deity, or that of denying Him come in flesh. The varied aspects of it are very great. What Paul rebuked in Philippi would be another form of it: "these men are the servants of the most high God" (Acts 16:17), ignoring Christ.
C.A.M. Peter alludes, in his second epistle, to this kind of men: "It were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them", 1 Peter 2:21.
J.T. "The dog has turned back to his own vomit; and, The washed sow to her rolling in mud", 2 Peter 2:22. What is to be observed in all this -- "those once enlightened, and who have tasted of the heavenly gift, and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come" -- is that it describes
how far a man can go in the things of God and yet be unregenerate. A most solemn thing!
B.T.F. Would you say a word regarding the details of the first two verses? "Let us go on to what belongs to full growth".
J.T. The subject really arises in the end of chapter 5, where the writer says that he had much to say concerning Melchisedec, but they were dull of hearing. Then he says, they were as babes when they ought to have been teachers. They were in the infantile state for the want of exercise of their senses. They were unskilled in the word of righteousness. Then, in chapter 6, he says, "Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on to what belongs to full growth, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God, of the doctrine of washings, and of imposition of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment". These were features that attached to Christ as among the Jews which did not, in themselves, take them out of the nursery, so to say. They were still in Old Testament settings -- "under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father", Galatians 4:2. The coming in of Jesus, as Messiah, did not alter that state of things, though it added greatly to the light that was there, of course; but it did not take them out of the state characterising the babe. They were still under the principles of the law, in fact, the Lord Himself came under those principles: "God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law", Galatians 4:4. He in no way abrogated the law; but fulfilled, and in every way magnified it. "He will magnify the law, and make it honourable", Isaiah 42:21. There was the living of it out in Him; but it could not take them out of their infantile state. These features attached to the Messiah and no doubt will be taken up again by Israel. They are carried over into Christianity, only (as connected with the
Spirit on the ground of redemption) they have a fuller meaning. "The beginning of the Christ" connected them with Judaism; but we are to go on to perfection; in Christ risen we have the new thing. Christ in heaven is the fulness of the divine thought for man.
F.L. Will you say a few words as to just how we may understand being enlightened, tasting of the heavenly gift, partaking of the Holy Spirit, tasting of the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come, without there being a real work of God in the soul? It goes so far that one can hardly imagine that there is no genuine work of God there, yet we know there is not. Doubtless we see the same things around us today, and it is necessary that we should be able to discern as to them. We may see these things even amongst those with whom we are in contact; it is very solemn.
J.T. We can travel a long way with the things of God, especially if there is power. The ministry of the apostles at Jerusalem was a wonderful ministry, and these people would have been present at the meetings there, indeed they would have identified themselves with them because they were made partners in the thing. I think they had an outward part in it -- a sort of partnership. They would partake of the Holy Spirit, for instance, if they were in a meeting where Peter or John addressed the saints. Think of the power that was there! Simon Magus would give money for it. He valued the thing but in a natural way, for he had never repented. Peter said: "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity;" Acts 8:22, 23. Yet he discerned the power of the Spirit of God and seeing its value would gladly have bought it. If that power could be bought and
attached to the religion and politics of this world, what a world it would be! In fact, they would have made the Lord a king, because He could feed the multitude; John 6. It contemplates not only that the thing was felt but appreciated. The natural man can appreciate spiritual as well as temporal benefits.
A.F.M. Yet the ground was barren. The rain had fallen upon it, but instead of fruit it brought forth thorns and briars.
Rem. Would such an one be like the person who would fall down and say, "God is in you of a truth", 1 Corinthians 14:25?
J.T. That man falls down. It contemplates a man genuinely affected. One who would fall down and say, "God is indeed amongst you", (1 Corinthians 14:25) is affected in his soul. There is a great difference between him and those referred to in John 6. This man is born again, his eyes are open: "Except a man be born again", the Lord says, "he can not see the kingdom of God", John 3:3. When a man says, "God is indeed amongst you", (1 Corinthians 14:25) he sees the kingdom, for the moral element is there. To see and feel power does not go as far as that. The Lord said: "When ye see a cloud rising out of the west, straightway ye say, A shower is coming; and so it happens. And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it happens", Luke 12:54, 55. It is remarkable how clever men are. He says, "and so it happens", it is just as they say; but he adds "Hypocrites, ye know how to judge of the appearance of the earth and of the heaven; how is it then that ye do not discern this time"? There was no moral discernment in them; but with the man who fell down, the element of discernment was in him.
B.T.F. It is more the intellect.
J.T. There is that in man which is beyond one at times. The power of discernment and of appreciation
of what is present, whether in the physical, or even the spiritual system; so we are often carried away by it. Some are deceived because men can go so far in the things of God. Take the antichrist, it says, "he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth", Revelation 13:13. I cannot understand that. It looks like the supernatural, and it is, in a way; but it shows what man is capable of, and makes the danger or deception all the more serious. So you have phenomena about us today that almost deceive even the elect. It requires great nearness to God to discern what is at work.
F.L. In reference to the barren ground, it is something worse than that. "He sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust", Matthew 5:45. It is the prosperity and blessing of heaven coming upon the earth; but the greater it is the more the thorns and briars. The ground is not barren in the sense that it produces nothing; but the greater the blessing from heaven the more the evidence of man's independence and forgetfulness of God. The answer on man's part to all God's goodness is the fruit of the curse -- thorns and briars.
J.T. It does strike one that this passage indicates what man is capable of -- what wonderful powers the natural man has -- how far he can go and yet be short of new birth. It is new birth that underlies discerning the kingdom. The Lord says, "If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not", Matthew 24:23. The kingdom of God was in their midst and they could not discern it; but they could discern the face of the sky. They would say, "A shower is coming; and so it happens". Such is man's accuracy. It is the outcome of man's enormous natural ability to penetrate into what is of God. Yet, he does not see that God has come in in Christ, and that it is not a question of utilising man in the flesh again.
A.F.M. Would not such an one ultimately give up?
J.T. That is what is happening. There is a great amount of apostasy in evidence and hatred of Christ. Satan is at work and they do not know it; he moves them to attack Christ. So out of this is developed the "many antichrists".
A.J.D. Would Judas be an example?
J.T. He had the most wonderful privileges of any man, yet sold the Lord for thirty pieces of silver. The One through whom all the wealth of God had come in Judas sold for that base amount.
F.L. "Yea, mine own familiar friend!" Psalm 41:9.
W.B-w. When Christianity was established, I can understand these people existed, and that they deliberately refused the testimony of the Spirit; but, do you think you would find this class today?
J.T. Certainly. The heavenly gift, the Holy Spirit, the good word of God, and the works of power of the age to come are here today. They may not be so apparent now in all their reality and power as in apostolic days; yet, nevertheless, these things are enjoyed. There is a testimony here, and there are those who have tasted these things, and no longer walk with the saints. Where are they? They may not be openly apostate; but they virtually say, I see nothing in all that.
W.B-w. I thought a case of this kind was hopeless.
J.T. Just so. "It is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened", verse 4 says.
W.B-w. Would you not say there is hope for every man today?
F.L. We are not entitled to say there is any hope for those who are openly apostate.
J.T. There are those who prove themselves to be lost.
C.A.M. This comes very close to us. One could do a great deal and still be without Christ.
J.T. Quite. The terrible thing here is that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. While a man has never repented, there is hope for him; but, if he has been once enlightened, it is impossible to renew him again.
W.B-w. It makes it very solemn if there are those for whom there is no hope.
J.T. Indeed! Yet, here it is, "for it is impossible to renew again to repentance those once enlightened".
A.N.W. It does say: "nigh to a curse". The curse is not revealed.
Rem. Would it be like the sin against the Holy Spirit?
J.T. That section of Scripture makes the Holy Spirit prominent; but here it is, "Crucifying for themselves (as they do) the Son of God". The Lord is in view here, as the One who has brought in Christianity.
F.L. I do not think we can minimise the danger of the position of those who, in the full light of Christianity (the revelation of God in Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit), deliberately reject the deity and atonement of Christ, and all that hinges upon it. They have deliberately, with their eyes wide open, rejected all that God has presented in Christ.
J.T. It is very noticeable that the enemy is shrewd enough to see how far he can go whilst the Holy Spirit is still here. He discerns that he cannot hold the whole field, and you do not find men succeeding very much who openly throw off all profession of Christianity, so they attack certain features of the truth. We may classify all such as "many antichrists". There are many of them.
F.L. The great object of the chapter is, not only
to point out those who turn back, but to lead us on to that which is established in Christ.
J.T. He digressed, although it is not a digression, to call attention to the infantile state of things, and further, certain were apostatising. There he goes on to say, "but we are persuaded concerning you, beloved, better things, and connected with salvation, even if we speak this". That would lead a believer to inquire whether he is marked by these "better things" which accompany salvation.
A.N.W. I would like to go back to the first verse: Is there anything a Christian has to leave that he has properly learned?
J.T. He refers to the things spoken of as connected with the Messiah; that is, with Christ as among the Jews. The Jewish believers were linking Christianity with that, whereas he wanted to get them on to Christian ground proper and then have them go on to what belongs to full growth, which is Christ as He is.
C.A.M. "And this will we do if God permit".
J.T. He has in view the going on. That did not mean the leaving of anything that was properly Christian; but these doctrines which belong to "the beginning of the Christ", we might say, were connected with the Messiah and the Jews, and his desire was that they should learn which it was to get out of that setting and to apprehend Christ as He is, redemption being accomplished.
A.F.M. A great difference between "leaving" and "have fallen away". To leave was right; but to have fallen away was hopeless.
A.N.W. The apostle said to Timothy, "continue thou in the things which thou hast learned", 2 Timothy 3:14.
J.T. The things which he here exhorts them to leave were connected with the Messiah, which were right as far as the truth stood in relation to Israel; but it stood there no longer. The Lord came in by
the door; but He had gone out. The things named were perfectly right when Christ was here in the flesh; but the Jewish Christians were being held by them. They were right in their day, but whatever of them are carried into Christianity should be seen in that connection and setting. They now have a fuller bearing. You do not leave the initial form of Christianity. The things to be left are those connected with the Jewish system.
A.F.M. Those four words, "Let us go on" are forceful.
J.T. "Let us go on to what belongs to full growth", which is simply Christianity -- what Christ is now. Go on to the things which belong to you. It is, really, as if the writer said, Get out of Jewish settings into Christian ones. So now we want to go on in the same way. What belongs to full growth is sonship. They were kept "under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ", Galatians 4:2 - 7. One of the great things which belong to full growth is sonship. In writing to these Hebrew Christians the writer does not disregard what is there: "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation". There were these things and he had taken account of them. So one would inquire, as a true Christian, whether the things which accompany salvation mark one.
A.F.M. Is not one of the things accompanying
salvation seen in verse 10? "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed towards his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister". Is not that a strong element of preservation? You know love and reciprocate it.
J.T. "Still ministering". It is what they were then doing, not only what they had done. That is one of the greatest features of Christianity, you are going on with the thing. What you did is taken into account, but it is what you are now doing that God values and recognises.
F.L. "We know that we have passed from death unto life because we love the brethren", 1 John 3:14.
A.R.S. One of the great troubles with professing Christians is that they mix Judaism and Christianity together.
J.T. There are a great many of the Lord's people who are in human settings religiously; they are occupied with ceremonialism, etc., and do not go on to full growth. They read the same scripture on a given Sunday that was read three hundred years ago on the same Sunday. There is no thought of movement, hence a state of stagnation. This epistle is invaluable for such, for, until they get out of those settings, they will not go on to full growth.
A.F.M. They are not practically saved otherwise. "Better things, and connected with salvation", are a present reality, and involve spiritual environments.
J.T. Some people can do all sorts of things with a good conscience because of bad teaching; things that are wicked in the way of associations, etc. Then the promise and the oath coming in are most touching. Not that God even needed, from His own side, to either promise or swear. If we know God, we neither look for a promise nor an oath; but He graciously takes account of our smallness of stature, and promises something to encourage our hearts.
He knows you do not know Him well enough to be without a promise, so He gives you one as a stay for your heart. But you may not be satisfied with the promise alone, even though His word is His bond, you may not be sure; so He says, I will go farther than that, I will swear. Paul called God to witness upon his soul in speaking to the Corinthians. Had they known Paul, they would have known that if he said he was coming to them, he meant it. He did not use lightness in the matter. He says, "I call God to witness upon my soul that to spare you I have not yet come to Corinth", 2 Corinthians 1:23. It was because they did not have confidence in him he did this. So God says, you may not have confidence in what I promise, so to make it doubly certain, I take an oath. "That by two unchangeable things, in which it was impossible that God should lie, we might have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us".
C.A.M. It seems a wonderful thing that God should take account of our weakness in that way.
J.T. It is a leverage whereby God lifts the saints out of the state of childhood into that of manhood. He has thus given us a strong consolation.
Ques. What are the promise and oath made to Abraham?
J.T. You have them in verse 14. God confirmed the promise to Abraham after he offered up Isaac, but Abraham had to be assured, hence the oath. Then Abraham went to Beersheba and dwelt there. Abraham virtually said to God, You have sworn, and now I am going to live on the oath. Beersheba means "well of the oath", see Genesis 22. God says, you can live on the oath; but I would rather live in His love than on His oath.
C.A.M. Some are anxious lest they should be numbered amongst those who come short. I suppose there is no better way, in dealing with that state of
soul, than to present to them what is found at the end of this chapter.
J.T. To give Christians assurance these two things are given: the promise and the oath; but when you enter into that within the veil where Jesus is you would not think of asking for a promise, or an oath.
F.L. Paul had the sense that there was something better than living on an oath, for he said: "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his", 2 Timothy 2:19.
J.E.H. Speaking of the promise and the oath, where would they come in in Christianity?
J.T. They do not exactly belong to Christianity; but they have their application to us in the way of confirmation and establishment. It does not belong to full growth. A grown-up son knows his father -- he does not ask for a promise or an oath -- he knows he is to be trusted. It is the little child that demands a promise, or a guarantee, because a child does not fully know its parent. The promise and the oath refer to smallness of stature; but God considers it, and meets it in this chapter.
C.A.M. A babe is not really beyond circumstances; is not inside the veil.
J.T. A babe is outside in the sphere of providences where uncertainty is found; but there is no uncertainty inside: "where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us". It is what He is, as Man, on one side. Think of the One who represents us, having gone in! "Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God", 1 Peter 1:21. If He has raised your Representative up, you have both faith and hope in God.
F.L. Peter beautifully presents that thought. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God", 1 Peter 3:18. As much as to say, I can leave you there.
J.T. "Entering into that within the veil, where Jesus is entered as forerunner for us", and then it adds: "Become for ever a high priest according to the order of Melchisedec". That is, He is there in the dignity of His own Person as Priest. The next chapter gives the greatness of this Person. "Jesus is entered as forerunner for us", He is on our side. The most feeble believer may be conducted there. The knowledge of Jesus in the brightest spot in the glory detains the heart. If you see Him there in that supreme place your heart is detained, and you know that you have a place there with him.
A.N.W. Referring to chapter 7, the writer says he could not speak of many things he wished to, because they were hard of interpretation. Are the things in this chapter regarding Melchisedec easy of interpretation?
J.T. I think he refers to the things spoken of in this chapter. He had digressed from that point to speak a word to them as to their practical state; but now he returns to the subject in this chapter.
A.F.M. He is more free, you would say, after clearing the ground in chapter 6, to return to his theme in chapter 7.
A.N.W. Their hearing was better.
J.T. The word in chapter 6 would have the effect of bringing about better hearing. Then, having touched on the Priest who has gone in, he cannot refrain from calling attention to His personal greatness. He enlarges on it in order to bring out the greatness of the people of whom He is Priest. So he says, "such a High Priest became us". This chapter is not only to call attention to the personal greatness of Christ (chapter 1 does that, to emphasise the speaking; and how great the word is!) but to the greatness of the company. So it says, "such a High Priest became us".
In chapter 1 it is the Son: "God ... has spoken to us in Son", Hebrews 1:1,2. The Son in His personal greatness is dwelt upon, but here it is the Priest. So the chapter begins: "For this Melchisedec, King of Salem, priest of the most high God". The greatness of the Priest is brought before us.
A.N.W. Did you say the great thought of the
chapter was to set forth the greatness of those for whom He is Priest?
J.T. That is the point. He says in verse 26, "For such a High Priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens: who has not day by day need, as the high priests, first to offer up sacrifices for his own sins, then for those of the people; for this he did once for all in having offered up himself. For the law constitutes men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of the swearing of the oath which is after the law, a Son perfected for ever". So the greatness of the Priest indicates the greatness of the company. We should probably put it the other way: such a people becomes such a High Priest; but the Holy Spirit puts it in such a way as to elevate us in our apprehension of our great place.
J.T. "First being interpreted king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace". I suppose one thing follows the other: peace follows righteousness.
A.F.M. I suppose those titles will have their bearing in the world to come, strictly speaking. He will establish righteousness publicly, and then bring in peace.
J.T. "He ... shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a Priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both", Zechariah 6:13. The King and the Priest in one. The Lord will be known as a Priest on His throne; but a Priest as having established righteousness. The King of righteousness brings forward the great question of righteousness, that is to say, the rights of God.
J.S. He is that now; not King simply of a certain country, or nation; but King of righteousness.
J.T. He is described as the righteous One; but "King of righteousness" involves more, not only
that He is personally righteous; but He is in full control of righteousness.
A.F.M. In its application to us, would that be seen in His position as Lord?
J.T. I think so, as having accomplished righteousness. We were dwelling last evening on the constituent features of the gospel. Paul said: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith", Romans 1:16,17. Now the King of righteousness has control, and is available for faith. He is presented "on the principle of faith to faith", Romans 1:17. So the repentant sinner today comes unto the righteousness of God. That righteousness is revealed in the gospel, in fact, it is in Christ. The repentant sinner knows it, as we see in Peter, who fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, "Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord" (Luke 5:8), showing he recognised that righteousness was there. There was power there also to give a draught of fishes; but the moral element is in righteousness, that is, God's rights in mercy. The righteousness of God is attractive to the repentant soul, even though conscious of its unfitness for the divine presence.
D.M.R. Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness. As a righteous man he rescued Lot, and Melchisedec came forth and blessed him.
J.T. I think Abraham would appreciate the King of righteousness. He was accounted righteous -- he was a righteous man.
A.F.M. The Lord's word to Peter was: "Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men", Luke 5:10.
J.T. Those words breathed the grace and mercy that were there, and Peter would be made conscious of that. So the leper, who is the next character in
the chapter, says, "Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And he put forth his hand and touched him, saying, I will: be thou clean", Luke 5:12. That was righteousness.
J.S. Being able to deal with the case.
J.T. He was disposed to deal with it. "I will", He says.
A.R.S. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other", Psalm 85:10.
J.T. All were combined in Christ. Righteousness is the first great thought. Without it you can have nothing; but think of having the King of it! He can control it and make it effective. Just as Solomon: "I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem" (Ecclesiastes 1:12), meaning, he had means of making right of way for the preaching.
D.M.R. That is the reason why there is so much made of righteousness in Romans.
J.T. I think so: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith", Romans 1:17. The moral element is there.
A.F.M. In Romans 14 it says, "for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit", Romans 14:17. It is the practical result in us of God's righteousness being known.
W.B-w. In that war, when Abram came forward and delivered Lot, neither the four kings nor the five were right.
J.T. It was four against five, and a real war, so to say. Neither side was right; but Abram the Hebrew was right. He dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, outside of all the conflict. He was of another world, but had trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen; that is to say, he had the means by him of rescuing his brother. It would
not have been right to have joined either side; but it was right to rescue his brother, and he did so.
A.F.M. Why do you think that Melchisedec, king of Salem, intercepted him?
J.T. It was to bring into evidence what God approved: "Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth", Genesis 14:19 Melchisedec recognised Abram.
A.F.M. It is very striking that it is before the king of Sodom comes up with his offer. I was wondering whether God saw that Abram might yield, and that he needed support in order to be superior to the offer of the king of Sodom.
J.T. He supported him in the presence of the test, you mean.
C.B. God brings in righteousness in Melchisedec as typifying the One who is able to control the universe.
J.T. And also that what was right was recognised. He recognised Abram.
A.F.M. Is not the point in this chapter, that there was some one greater than Abraham to whom Abraham gave the tenth portion of all?
J.T. That is the point. Only it is very interesting to see that the King of righteousness comes in at a juncture where there had been conflict, and recognises Abram's rescuing his brother Lot as right.
A.N.W. This scripture does not refer to his rescuing his brother; but to the smiting of the kings.
J.T. The Old Testament furnishes the details. Abram's interference recovered the brother; but then, he refused to take anything from the king of Sodom. I think Melchisedec recognised all that.
A.R.S. What is Abram a type of, in smiting these kings?
J.T. He represents the Lord as rescuing the brethren -- Israel in the last days.
J.F. Melchisedec is also called "King of peace".
J.T. Peace is consequent on righteousness.
J.F. The Lord comes in and supports us previous to a trial that He knows is coming upon us. The Lord said in regard to Peter, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not", Luke 22:32.
A.N.W. Is that not one of the points that the Spirit presses here? One would question if Abram would have been supported as he was had the king of Sodom appeared before he was blessed and refreshed by Melchisedec.
J.T. The point here is to bring out the greatness of Christ, as prefigured in Melchisedec. "The inferior is blessed by the better". He was greater than Abraham.
A.N.W. Another point the Spirit brings out is that the great patriarch rendered tithes to Melchisedec. One questions if he would have rendered tithes if he had not been made superior.
A.F.M. Is it not Melchisedec's service rendered in two ways, he blesses Abraham and also God?
J.T. Yes. In Genesis 14 it says: "And Melchisedec, king of Salem, brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, Possessor of heaven and earth; and blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all", Genesis 14:18 - 20.
A.N.W. What I meant was, the giving on the part of Abram immediately follows his having been blessed by Melchisedec.
J.T. The priesthood of Christ induces giving. "And he gave him tithes of all". "Now consider how great this personage was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth out of the spoils". The Spirit of God in referring to Abraham as a patriarch suggests that the great progenitor of the greatest family on earth was not as great as Melchisedec. It is not only that Abraham was a righteous man; but, in regard to the Jew, he was their great
progenitor -- "the patriarch Abraham" -- the great head of the family.
A.N.W. So, if the Lord excels the greatest heavenly beings in chapter 1, He excels the greatest earthly people in chapter 8.
J.T. Even though one might pride oneself in being of the stock of Abraham, like Saul did, for example, one is brought into something greater than that in this chapter.
J.F. It would be a tremendous thing for the Jew to learn that the lowly Jesus was a Priest after the order of Melchisedec.
J.T. That was the thing for the Jewish believer to get hold of.
A.N.W. I suppose you would not care to refer to the greatness of any man unless it suggested the greatness of Christ.
J.T. "The patriarch Abraham" had an undisputed place. There were other nations who would not dispute the place "the patriarch Abraham" had; but, what he was as a righteous man would only be understood spiritually. As the patriarch he would be recognised because he was the progenitor, not only of the Jewish nation, but of other nations. That he should be exceeded by our Priest shows our greatness, and lifts us above the greatest family on earth.
A.N.W. In being called to consider how great this personage was, it is that we might see the greatness of Christ.
J.T. He is brought in here as coming in outside of the ordinary course of nature, not viewed as born of a woman: "without father, without mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning of days nor end of life". There never has been another such
person. Such statements could only typify One who is divine.
Rem. Looking at priesthood in that light, it eclipses the Aaronic priesthood.
J.T. One is taken out of the ordinary settings of life, however distinguished a man may be. "For such a High Priest became us, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, and become higher than the heavens". You are elevated as having such a High Priest, because 'Like people, like priest', applies here. "Such a High Priest became us". What an exalted people the saints of this dispensation are! This is what the Jewish believers needed to get hold of, because they naturally prided themselves in their relation with Abraham and the Aaronic priesthood; but this is to lift them outside of that into heavenly relationships and associations.
J.F. "Without father, without mother, without genealogy; having neither beginning of days nor end of life", was that to emphasise the eternal existence of Christ?
J.T. I think so. The thought of having such a High Priest as that was intended to lift the saints out of ordinary relations.
We are apt to attach much to our family relations, this was especially so with the Jews in being able to trace their line back to Abraham -- that was what Saul could do -- but this ministry would lift one out of that, and connect one with the order of priesthood that had neither father, nor mother, without genealogy, nor beginning of days nor end of life.
A.F.M. The object of all this is to bring us to the Lord's side of things, that we might with Him as our High Priest minister to God. That service is rendered, as you say, by a heavenly people.
Rem. Little is said in Scripture as to who Melchisedec was.
J.T. Whoever Melchisedec was historically, the
Scriptures introduce him in this way, so that God might have a great type of Christ to refer to later. In Psalm 110 He refers to this great personage and swears: "Thou art Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec", Psalm 110. Therefore it is that the saints might contemplate. This personage appeared on the scene at an extraordinary time, and disappears again; but God resumes His way with Abram, who was the immediate object with God. Then in David's day, or the day of the Psalms, God introduces Melchisedec afresh. He was, as it were, a heavenly visitor in Abram's day; but it was the divine thought at the very outset that he should be a type of Christ, and in the Psalms you have him brought in as such.
A.F.M. Why the long silence regarding him until Psalm 110? Is it because Christ is brought before us very prominently in the Psalms?
J.T. The Psalms work out in man's experience what is according to God. The Aaronic priesthood would not do; the godly would discern that. The Psalms go to show what was discerned by faith. The psalmist refers to God as addressing Christ as a Priest after the order of Melchisedec.
J.T. Although Christ is Priest after the order of Melchisedec, yet He exercises priesthood according to the Aaronic order now.
J.T. When you come to the function of the Priest it is Aaronic.
A.N.W. Alluding to Aaron, the Spirit of God speaks of him as the son of Levi here, rather setting him aside in view of this heavenly priest, "without father, without mother, with genealogy".
J.T. It is rather a question of the tribe to which priesthood belonged. So Juda is brought in, and it says: "For it is clear that our Lord has sprung out of Juda, as to which tribe Moses spake nothing as to priests". "If then indeed he were upon earth, he would not even be a Priest", (Hebrews 8:4)hence the thought of Melchisedec refers to
Him, not as on earth, but as in heaven. It is one of the most interesting things to consider: First, his appearance in Genesis; then the long interval until his order is announced in the Psalms, as that after which Christ is Priest; it is as the final choice of God. "Thou art Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec", Psalm 110. Others were hindered from continuing by death; but with Him there is no variation or alteration.
A.F.M. In Psalm 110, He is saluted in resurrection.
A.N.W. Was God waiting for kingship?
J.T. The old order of priesthood disappeared in Eli. Samuel is brought in, not to introduce a new order of priesthood, for he was a Levite; but, strictly speaking, he was a prophet. He asserted the rights of God when the priesthood broke down, and that made room for the king. "I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will", Acts 13:22. That is the king.
A.F.M. The king was to go before the priest forthwith.
J.T. The priesthood would henceforth be subordinated to the king. "He shall walk before mine anointed continually", 1 Samuel 2:35. So the Lord sits as a Priest upon His throne. After the breakdown of the priesthood, everything hinged on royalty. Not on the royalty that man selected in Saul, but on the one God selected, hence you have, "I have set my King upon my holy hill of Zion", Psalm 2:6.
A.F.M. David wore the linen ephod in 2 Samuel 6:14.
J.T. You have the two things combined in David, and exercised at the same time: the king and the priest. But the word is, "he shall walk before mine anointed continually", 1 Samuel 2:35. Psalm 2 gives us the King: "my King", and Psalm 110 the Priest.
J.F. Prophet, Priest and King.
J.T. That is the correct combination. Samuel,
the prophet; David, king and priest. The priest comes in, historically, before the king. It was a priestly theocracy. God ruled the people, but through the priest, and in that state of things it says of the ark: "Phinehas ... stood before it in those days", Judges 20:28. The one with whom the covenant had been made of an everlasting priesthood because of his devotedness. It was therefore the priestly state of things which broke down under Eli. So that in David you have a new order of things, and the priest comes in subordinate to the king. Zadok and Abiathar were subordinate to David.
A.F.M. Would you say a word about the swearing? The new order of priesthood was introduced with an oath in contrast to the other priesthood.
J.T. The swearing made it permanent. We had the oath in chapter 6, making things sure to us; but this chapter gives the establishment of the priesthood in permanency. You cannot think for a moment of God going back on His oath: "The word of the swearing of the oath which is after the law, a Son perfected forever". I think we should be very happy in the sense that the priesthood is set up irrevocably, and the believer, who knows the greatness of the thing, should be supremely happy in it.
A.F.M. The same Priest takes us right through.
J.T. The priests of the Aaronic order were hindered from continuing by death; but now we have a system set up in the Son in the power of an indissoluble life: "For the law constitutes men high priests, having infirmity; but the word of the swearing of the oath, which is after the law, a Son perfected forever". The believer may rest in that -- there is to be no change.
Christians generally have very little conception of the greatness of their position. It is so great that it requires such a High Priest as this to be our Priest. You see, the office of priesthood in itself would make
a man great. Aaron was made great by the office, not by his personality; whereas, Christ makes the office great and the company great also.
J.F. Is it the dignity or the weakness of the company that requires such a Priest?
J.T. The side of weakness would come out earlier: "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same ... that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered, being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted", Hebrews 2:14 - 18. That is one side of the priesthood, and of our position -- we are going through the wilderness in weakness. The other side is, that we are a heavenly, and therefore a great company, because "such a High Priest became us".
A.F.M. Would you apply verse 26 to us?
J.T. You would make allowance for what is personal to Christ; but the saints, viewed as related to Him, must be in accord with Him. There must be correspondence.
A.N.W. Chapter 2 puts it very beautifully: "for both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one", Hebrews 2:11.
J.T. Quite. The description of the Priest comes in; afterwards he says, "for such a High Priest became us". The greatness of the company is indicated in the Person who "became us".
W.B-w. Was the "setting aside of the commandment going before" to make room for the new covenant?
J.T. Quite. The "commandment" refers to the old order of things which had grown old, had become aged, and was near disappearing. There are many people who are old but do not look old; but when you grow old and become aged, you are both old and
look old. The instruction at the end of chapter 8 is remarkable. A Jew at that time might have gone to Jerusalem and looked at the temple, and admired the wonderful appearance of it, etc., but to the spiritual eye the system had grown old, had become aged, and was soon to pass away.
A.N.W. "He is able also to save them to the uttermost".
J.T. It is the ability of Christ. He is able to save. You need this to the very end of the chapter, and it is a great thing to have the assurance that He is able to do this. Whatever may come in your path, or circumstances, He is able to carry you through it.
A.N.W. Why only those "that come unto God"?
J.T. It is the wilderness position in view here, and would refer to the people in that position. They had a long journey before them, but then, they had God, to whom to come, in the wilderness. Saving refers to what is opposed. Those who approach God by Christ can reckon on salvation to the uttermost. He has "the priesthood unchangeable", or intransmissible. "Whence also he is able to save completely those who approach by him to God, always living to intercede for them". He lives to intercede for us, and will carry us through; that is to say, we are brought into the mediatorial system, and the Priest we have has the priesthood intransmissible. The Israelites, no doubt said, What will the next priest be like when Phinehas dies? There was his successor and so on, until Eli came. What kind of a man was Eli? What could he do for them? The book of Samuel shows that he could not save to the uttermost! but here you have One who has the priesthood intransmissible, and you come to Him whom you can trust, so that the salvation is complete. "He is able to save completely, ... always living to intercede for them". Think of that! As if His whole life on high was devoted to the maintenance of the saints
down here. Presently, He will be ruling the world; but for the moment He is "always living to intercede". A most comforting thought. So, "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous", 1 John 2:1. We have not to engage one.
The next chapter opens, "Now a summary of the things of which we are speaking is, We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man", Hebrews 8:1,2. Think of what the saints, as a company, have! Judaism had its high priest; Rome has its great bishop, etc., but, "We have such a one high priest". It does not say that God has Him, although that is true; but we have Him.
A.F.M. Would the value to us of our reading be in that we appropriate this blessed One as presented to us in this section, including the opening verse of chapter 8?
J.T. Yes. See what "we have". How well off we are The "we" refers to all Christians.
What Christians ought to see is, that we have all that is requisite to carry us through the world, and for the maintenance of the service of God. If Christians saw this, they would refuse all that exists today in Christendom. We do not need all these great dignitaries. We have a Priest who has the priesthood intransmissible, and "according to power of indissoluble life". The testimony is, that He lives and is in heaven, as it says in chapter 8, "who is set on the right hand of the throne of the majesty in the heavens", Hebrews 8:1. This light received into our souls lifts us out of what exists in the religious systems around us, for it brings us into the gain of what we have got.
If a Jew and a Greek had met before Christ came, and composed notes, the Jew could have said: We
have the temple, and its priestly service as inaugurated by Moses, direct from God Himself; and we have wonderful privileges as the people of God. The Greek would reply: We have our beautiful temples, and worship of the gods; our learning and mythology. Now when we come to Christianity, men are grouped under three heads by Paul: Jews, Greeks and the assembly of God. Had a Jew, or a Greek asked Paul what he had got, this is one of the first things he could have told them. "We have such a one High Priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens", Hebrews 8:1. And he could have gone on to unfold the greatness of the Christian's position, advantages and privileges. Where would Judaism, or what the Greek had, be beside that? Apply the foregoing to our day; set an enlightened Christian beside a religionist and let the latter say what he has got. What has he got? Nothing! Now the Christian knows that he has got what Paul had; and can unfold it, where there is an opening.
A.F.M. What would be the moral effect upon us of our coming to this blessed conclusion that "we have such a one High Priest"? Hebrews 8:1.
J.T. The first effect would be, that if connected with any other system, one would abandon it as not any better than Judaism, which is said to have grown old, become aged and is near disappearing. The next thing is, you are independent of man's systems. You are consciously independent of them because of the wonderful supply we have in Christ. "We have such a one High Priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens", Hebrews 8:1.
B.T.F. Would you say the chapter had in view the remarkable change that had taken place?
J.T. Change of priesthood, do you mean?
B.T.F. I mean the change of the whole system and the new being introduced.
A.F.M. So that the idea of a summary is very important to notice.
J.T. Christians generally do not know what we have; the "we" includes all Christians. What we have as indicated here would deliver us from human organisations and church dignitaries. The greatest dignitary is eclipsed by the High Priest we have. He is not presented here from God's side, but from ours. In the earlier chapters we get what helps a Christian in the detail of his experience, but this summary is that all might know what we Christians have; it says, "We have such a one High Priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched, and not man". We have Him, and He has sat down in heaven in relation to all this. And it says, "Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord has pitched".
A.R.S. I notice our High Priest has sat down. In the Jewish order the priest had to stand up.
J.T. Denoting an unfinished service; there was always something ahead.
A.F.M. This would include the dignity of His Person. He has sat Himself down -- no place is too high or too great for Him.
A.N.W. We have here almost the identical words
found in the opening of the epistle, but not so much in relation to us there, but in relation to God.
J.T. Yes, the position in chapter 1 is viewed from God's side. What believers need to know is what they have.
A.F.M. His service in this priestly character is not exercised from the standpoint of God's throne, but as before God.
J.T. His service as Priest is towards God. His position on God's throne implies authority.
C.A.M. He is "Minister of the holy places".
J.T. What was foreshadowed in Aaron. One on whose shoulders rests the great burden of the service of God in the holy places. Today many dignitaries are recognised, but their service is not in relation to holy places.
H.G. Are the holy places and tabernacle all one?
A.N.W. Why holy places? Does the expression include the holiest?
J.T. Yes. The holiest and holy place. Christianity is connected with the holiest.
A.F.M. Do you think the holy places and true tabernacle would include the court?
J.T. He is Minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle; the court is included; His service extends outward.
A.N.W. You do not mean to include the court in the holy places?
J.T. No. I think the allusion would be to the tabernacle proper. We know from chapter 9 that "Christ is not entered into holy places made with hand ... but into heaven itself", Hebrews 9:24
B.T.F. What is your thought about the true tabernacle?
J.T. It is that which the Lord has pitched -- it would refer to the things unfolded by Christ. Leviticus 8 links up the tabernacle typically in relation to Christ personally. It is a question of things
unfolded, and includes all that the Lord Jesus spoke here. He unfolded the mind of God; it is all those things put together. They took a different form after He went on high in that they were put together in the saints; but the tabernacle represented the things spoken. He spoke the mind of God, and was anointed in relation to that.
C.A.M. It is tabernacle conditions in Hebrews, not temple ones?
J.T. It is the wilderness position. I think the tabernacle "which the Lord pitched" refers to what the Lord unfolded in His ministry. He was anointed by the Spirit in relation to that. Compare Leviticus 8:1 - 12. Peter said, "Let us make three tabernacles" (Luke 9:33); but the voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, hear him", Luke 9:35. He was the tabernacle.
A.F.M. He was the expression of all He spoke.
J.T. Exactly, He was all that He spoke.
A.F.M. So that the tabernacle of old was a pattern of the Man, the Lord Jesus Himself.
J.T. Every feature in the tabernacle might be traced in the Lord personally; but Hebrews contemplated Him in heaven and things set up here; therefore, it refers to Christianity as it was set up at Pentecost. Christ is Minister of that.
H.G. "The Word became flesh and dwelt [tabernacled] among us", John 1:14.
J.T. Yes, "Word" there would denote what He was the expression of.
H.G. Coming out from God Himself He is the expression of God and His will.
J.T. Moses is "the man of God". He says, "Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations", Psalm 90:1. The next Psalm opens with: "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty", Psalm 91:1. Moses got the pattern of the tabernacle and set it up, but he does not say in that prayer that the tabernacle
was our dwelling place, but "Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations", Psalm 90:1. So "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty", Psalm 91:1. I suppose the secret place would apply to the holiest, where the wings of the cherubim would extend. The dwelling in the secret place came out perfectly in the Lord. In fact, Psalm 91 refers to Him -- "because he hath set his love upon me", (Psalm 91:14) God says in verse 14, "therefore will I deliver him", Psalm 91:14. Hence the declaration of God, "the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18. That is, the declaration brings out the thoughts of God, and He through whom they were brought out, dwelt in the bosom, fully answering to Moses' reference. Jehovah was His dwelling in all generations.
J.S. The heart that knows God would find a dwelling place there.
J.T. This dwelling in the secret place brings in the thought of God being the abode. In John we have the same idea. Jesus said: "What seek ye?" (John 1:38); they say, "Where abidest thou?" (John 1:38); nothing is said about the temple or tabernacle; He says, "Come and see ... and they abode with him that day", John 1:39.
H.G. Exodus chapters 25 - 27 present typically the coming out of God; chapters 28 and 29 bring in the priests, their garments and consecration for service to God; all finding its fulfilment in the Lord, and in the saints.
J.T. Just so; all was the result of the knowledge that Moses had of God. He was on the mount with God when those communications were made. We know of his experience before that at Horeb, he turned aside to see the bush that burned with fire and was not consumed, for God was there, and he inquired as to God's name, and He said "I AM". What He had been to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
This ever present God, known to those who love Him; and Moses, I think, referred to that in saying "thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations", Psalm 90:1.
A.F.M. At the end of that Psalm reference is made to the "work of our hands" (Psalm 90:17); Moses says, "establish thou it", Psalm 90:17. Do you think it has any reference to the tabernacle structure?
J.T. I think so. The abode of the Lord had been there; but it could not be on the ground of man, as he was -- mortal man. It is on the ground of God's work in His people: "Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children. And let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us; and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it", Psalm 90:16,17. Think of all that would underlie the truth of these verses!
B.T.F. You connect the dwelling place of God with the assembly?
J.T. It is connected, but it is the work of the Lord -- "Let thy work appear unto thy servants, and thy glory unto their children", Psalm 90:16. It is what God is to the saints, and what He does in them.
H.G. John helps as to the dwelling, he says, "God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him", l @John 4:16.
J.T. Yes, it all works out as based upon the knowledge of God revealed, the knowledge we have of Him. God being declared in Christ, we have the true tabernacle.
J.S. It is wonderful that it is brought in now, before the eternal day.
A.F.M. The new covenant is very suggestive as coming in here: "all shall know me in themselves".
J.T. Yes, it underlies the truth of the pitching of the tabernacle; as in Exodus the covenant is made before the tabernacle was constructed.
H.G. It shows the necessity of the covenant in order to be in accord with Christ in view of approach.
W.B-w. Do the holy places refer to what is private, and the true tabernacle to what is public?
J.T. The holy places are heaven itself; the tabernacle would refer to what is here on earth. The Mosaic structure helps, but that is not the point here. What we need is to see the great change which Christianity brings in.
J.S. To transfer the mind from the earthly to the heavenly.
J.T. And also to free us from material things in order to get an apprehension of the dwelling; "No one has seen God at any time", 1 John 4:12 It is not what you have seen with your eyes, but what is spiritual.
W.B-w. How does this ministration go on at the present time?
J.T. The Lord is over it, as Aaron was over all in the Mosaic system; the Lord, although in heaven, is over all here. The saints on earth are all known to Him, and in the measure in which they are walking in or governed by the light of the tabernacle they come into direct benefit of the Lord's ministry.
A.F.M. Does it not also revert to God? Ministry as well as being valuable for believers, brings about results for God.
J.T. You might introduce the first book of Chronicles here if you wish to enlarge on the great subject touched on. The writer herein Hebrews 9 is touching on things and cannot go into them in detail. The service of God is introduced and enlarged on in 1 Chronicles. Moses' ministry is recognised, but David introduces a new order of service. The king is priest; he is clothed with a linen ephod. David recognised what was due to God, not because of commandment, but because of his spiritual stature and intelligence; he was properly a head. I think the apostle Paul is aiming at the very thing in 1 Corinthians. All the features of the service of God are touched on in chapters 10 to 15,
and even including chapter 16, which suggests the sentiments which should govern the hearts of the singers. No one sings better than when he is touched by sentiment. In chapter 15 the strings of the instrument are tightened by the truth of resurrection. Chapter 16 is what you do at home on the first day of the week you "put by" as prospered; so that there is a sentiment attached to that day. Think of all that Christ is to the assembly on that particular day! So that, like Habakkuk, we walk on our high places and we have our stringed instruments; which I think is chapter 15 of that epistle.
A.F.M. Will you connect the chapters to show how this is obtained?
J.T. Chapter 10 separates from the world; it treats of consistency, which is a great thing in an instrument. Chapter 11 brings in the love of Christ, and love for Him as the Ark, and the ritual which governs the saints -- what is comely amongst us. Chapter 12 is unity. Chapter 13 you might say is very testing and practical, it is what should actuate us all -- love. In chapter 14 the sounds are harmonious.
B.T.F. Could you speak of sentimentality in a spiritual way?
H.G. There is a difference between sentiment and sentimentality.
J.T. Chapter 15 tightens the strings, so to say, and would save us from sentimentality. In the systems of men there is a large preparation made of the vehicle; but the different vehicles or modes of so-called worship are spurious in that way; there is so much human sentiment in the hymns and forms of prayer; and I think 1 Corinthians 15 would be a corrective of that. You are brought into new thoughts. Poetry, or hymns written in the spirit of that chapter, would be free from natural sentimentality, and would belong to high places to be sung with the stringed instruments. "I will sing with the spirit, but I will
sing also with the understanding",(1 Corinthians 14:15) is the language of chapter 14; that is, what you sing is intelligent, it is in keeping with the "high places".
C.A.M. Good manners come in chapter 15; things are regulated.
J.T. In reading Mr. Darby's hymns you are struck that you are outside the range of natural sentimentality; there is that which appeals to you spiritually in every word and line.
A.N.W. "Where, O death, is thy sting? Where, O death, thy victory?" That is sentiment of the right kind.
J.T. That is a noteworthy verse in that chapter, illustrating what we were saying. All these things are present with us on the first day of the week. Chapter 15 is an unfolding of the great truth of resurrection, and it is only as on resurrection ground that you can join in with Paul and say: "Where, O death, is thy sting? Where, O grave, thy victory?" You are moved in your affections; it is a very real thing to be able to say that. Now we have the Minister of the sanctuary, the covenant next. The writer has to come back to the saints. He touches high things, as the High Priest sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; but he has to come back to the saints -- what we are, and the need of the covenant. I think he touches the kernel here which leads up to chapter 10, where he again touches on the new covenant, and then passes on to the holy places. In this chapter Christ is Minister of them; in chapter 10 we learn the way into them.
D.M.R. In speaking of the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary, it would be His service Godward; like Aaron's God said, "that he may serve me as priest", Exodus 28:1.
J.T. It is, but this is more His general service, I think. How is He going to get the sons in? It is by
the ministry of the covenant. The new covenant is the great burden from this chapter to chapter 10.
Ques. Is the Lord sitting or standing now?
J.T. He has sat Himself down, in the right of His Person; but John 20 helps us as to what is going on now, the Lord is seen standing; "Jesus came and stood in the midst", John 20:19.
C.A.M. Mark shows Him sitting and working.
J.T. It is the same thing in principle. Having finished His work, He sat; but as regards His position among the saints, He is active.
W.L.P. Is that why Stephen sees Him standing?
J.T. That has a Jewish reference, and is a striking testimony to the Lord's love to His murderers; He was ready to return to them upon their repentance. This is His present service. Our great High Priest has perfect right to sit down, and we know He comes to us.
H.G. The new covenant is brought in that there might be no disparity on our side; what Christ as Man enjoys in the presence of God, He would have us share.
J.T. He is Minister of the holy places. Chapter 10 shows we have access there, the word is "Let us approach", Hebrews 10:22. The great thing is to get the saints in accord with that, so that chapter 10 is introduced to set us at liberty.
A.F.M. What does He offer? "Every high priest is constituted for the offering both of gifts and sacrifices; whence it is needful that this One also should have something which he may offer".
J.T. I suppose it is the offering of Himself. There is a sense in which the saints are brought in, and possibly the ministry of the new covenant effects that. He brings the saints in as well.
W.B-w. Is the Minister at the present moment preparing the saints for service?
J.T. The first great thing is the covenant: "Now
he has got a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is mediator of a better covenant, which is established on the footing of better promises". Having the covenant, He would make it effective; He has laid the foundation, for He established it in dying, but His great service now is to make it effective this is the more excellent ministry.
A.F.M. In offering Himself He lays the basis, and now as risen He is the Mediator to make it effectual.
J.T. Yes, so we should look for effective ministry amongst us, so that we should not be worldly Christians; the system is heavenly and He would have us to take part in it.
D.M.R. The children of Israel were not to make any covenant with the nations around; Deuteronomy 7:1,2.
A.R.S. Where the Lord is in the midst of the assembly there will be the singing of praises to God.
J.T. That, I suppose, is the highest point reached in His people.
H.G. Man is recovered to God in mind and heart. The whole man is morally intelligent in affection: "Giving my laws into their mind, I will write them also upon their hearts". In chapter 8 the mind comes first, in chapter 10 the heart comes first. It is an important thing that we should be intelligent in love.
J.T. When the laws are in the mind the saints know what to do.
H.G. When the mind governs us it is not a question of sentimentality, but of doing things intelligently.
A.N.W. I suppose the heart would suggest something more responsive than the mind. He gives the law into their minds, but writes it in their hearts.
J.T. The love of God could never become effective in the soul of man without the service of the Mediator;
there must be the writing through ministry, which is based on mercy; hence the word; "their sins and their lawlessnesses I will never remember any more".
W.L.P. How do we come into the true knowledge of God?
J.T. The Lord gives you true knowledge of God. He has revealed Him; but then there is not only revelation, but teaching, and hence the great importance of not only looking at things in their grand total features, but the teaching of them in detail. We all know in natural affairs how slow the process of learning is. The Lord Himself said, prophetically, "he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned", Isaiah 50:4. The process is tedious with us, but we have to be brought into the knowledge of God, and the Lord is patiently bringing that about.
H.G. In a sense the covenant is set forth objectively; God's love is commended to us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. It is in connection with the action of the Spirit that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts.
J.T. In Old Testament times things were slow. There was formation, but in a man like Enoch three hundred years would not bring about what the work of the Spirit brings about in a much shorter time now. Things are done more speedily, the Holy Spirit being here and Christ having been glorified. Things are done methodically, too, but the whole thing is worked out in a man in a comparatively short span of time. Men do not live three hundred years now. Look at the effects of the Spirit's work in a man like Paul, whom we take as an example; how quickly he matured as the Holy Spirit had liberty with him. But we all have to learn, and many do not begin at the bottom. Paul says, "Ye have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which ye were instructed", Romans 6:17.
A.F.M. At the end of Matthew 11 we find that the Son who knows the Father is pleased to reveal Him; and then the exhortation follows: "Come to me", and "learn from me", Matthew 11:28,29.
J.T. There it is the Model; at the end of Luke 10 it is the Teacher. Mary sat at His feet and heard what He was saying. In the next chapter He is seen praying, and one of His disciples says, "Lord, teach us to pray". We shall never be effective priests unless taught how to pray by the Lord; that is one example of learning from Him.
A.F.M. Do you not think we have taken too much for granted? There is no limit to God's love, and the Holy Spirit is given to shed it abroad in our hearts, this is from the divine side; but there is the subjective work on our side by which room is made for the Spirit to carry on His work.
J.T. The knowledge of God is to be sought after by us, and is the result of divine teaching. We need to be in school for this, and we learn much better in class than at home; so that the circle of the saints is the place to learn this great lesson.
H.G. There are many agencies active in connection with it; in 2 Corinthians 3, where the ministry of the new covenants is enlarged upon, the Lord is said to be the Writer, and with the Spirit of the living God, this would be effected by the ministry of the apostles, no doubt, but prior to that there had to be the preparation of heart and a broken will. What hinders very largely is the unbroken will.
J.T. A great thing has come to us when the light of God enters the soul. The next thing is to be on the lookout for teaching. In 1 Corinthians 11, it says that even nature itself teaches. Are we prepared to be learners? In the ordinary affairs of life we learn from things around us. Spiritual intelligence is that which God would bring about in us.READINGS ON HEBREWS (2)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (3)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (4)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (5)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (6)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (7)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (8)