Pages 1 to 46 "Notes of Readings and Addresses, Indianapolis", 1907 (Volume 5).

THE DAY OF ATONEMENT

Leviticus 16

Substance of a reading⁺

Ques. Will you indicate the contents of the earlier chapters of this book?

Exodus closes with the tabernacle set up and filled with the glory of Jehovah. Wonderful scene! God, as dwelling there, would be approached and worshipped by man. This is the ground on which the teaching of Leviticus stands. The priesthood, although recognised as there, is not brought forward at the outset: it is God placing Himself in such a position as to be approached by those who loved Him. The priesthood had been instituted in connection with the construction of the tabernacle: this is assumed here, for without the priests the various offerings brought by the people could not be presented to Jehovah. It is God as in His abode ready (every requisite provided) to receive men according to their appreciation of Christ in the various lights in which He is viewed as walking here on earth, and offering Himself in death in devotedness to God. Later on Aaron and his sons are formally consecrated.

The fourfold view of the sacrifice of Christ, seen here in type, as set forth in the offerings, presents it in its completeness as before God; but each phase has to be apprehended in detail by us. The relative value of any given offering is according to the spiritual stature of the offerer. For example, a bullock offered as a burnt offering indicates a large appreciation, on

⁺Shorthand notes not being available, longhand notes, which were necessarily not so full, and in which the initials of the different speakers were not taken down, have been used.

the part of the offerer, of Christ as devoted unto death to God's will. The man who offered the bullock, however, was not accepted to any greater extent than he who brought a turtle dove or a young pigeon, only the bullock was cut up into parts, and being so large, it would afford more sweet savour than the turtle dove or pigeon. The latter were not divided asunder. The man who has a large appreciation of Christ affords more pleasure to God practically than he who has a small one, although both are on the same footing before Him. The sacrifice of Christ is always the ground of man's acceptance, and be our apprehension of this ever so small, faith in it gives title to draw near to God.

In the sin offerings the various animals set forth in type the responsibility of those who offered; these were not freewill offerings -- they were specified; but this, of course, assumed ability to comply with the requirement. When a trespass offering was required, provision was made for extreme poverty.

Leviticus 8 sets forth the consecration of Aaron and his sons. It is Christ and the church viewed in relation to the testimony. They were to "abide in the door of the tabernacle of the congregation day and night seven days, and keep the charge of the Lord". (Leviticus 8:35) This refers to the present time.

Leviticus 9 speaks of what occurs on the "eighth day": it is a new departure -- Christ in relation to Israel. On this day the glory will appear to Israel. Now it is hidden from them; Stephen saw it in heaven. We see it by the Spirit in the face of Jesus in the holiest of all. When Christ re-appears as King and Priest, typified in Moses and Aaron when they come out, verse 23, the glory will be seen by the congregation of Israel: "When all the people saw, they shouted, and fell on their faces". Leviticus 9:24. I think this prefigures the highest point reached by them.

Leviticus 10 records the failure of the priesthood. It is human responsibility as seen in this high office; in this, as in every other phase of it, it ends in failure. The house of Aaron, however, was not set aside until the days of Eli. Then there was a change: the priest was to walk before the Anointed, 1 Samuel 2:35. The king would take precedence of the priest.

Chapters 11 to 15 furnish instruction which was to regulate the everyday walk of a people brought into relationship with God in His sanctuary. They were to be holy because He was holy, Leviticus 11:45. Chapter 11 is the discrimination of food. Persons we commune with in an individual way, and books we read, would come in under this heading. Chapter 12 is the birth of man; nature renders unclean. Chapters 13 and 14 deal with the discerning of leprosy and its cleansing.

Chapter 16 before us now stands alone. It is wider in its bearing, perhaps, than any other chapter in the Old Testament, except Exodus 25. It sets forth typically the ground, the blood being on the mercy seat, upon which God places Himself in relation to the whole universe in grace. In Exodus 25 the ark of the covenant refers to Christ personally, He by whom God effects everything; while in Leviticus 16 it is the efficacy of His death that is in view. It is universal in its bearing.

The gospel refers not only to man, but also to the creation. The Lord commissioned the apostles to "preach the glad tidings to all the creation". Mark 16:15. Paul said it had been "proclaimed in the whole creation which is under heaven". Colossians 1:23. In preaching the gospel, Paul presented the mercy seat. We should learn how to preach from the example set by the apostles; the Lord taught them how to preach. The more you advance spiritually the more you get into sympathy with God. His grace goes out to the whole creation.

He made a covenant not only with man, but also with the beasts and the earth itself, Genesis 9. The rainbow was the token of this covenant, and it reappears in Revelation 4. When the throne of God resumes its public connection with the earth, the creation, as represented in its four active heads, "the living creatures", is seen identified with it. They are living creatures; this fact coincides with the covenant, and are replete with divine instinct. They are in full sympathy with Him who sits upon the throne, and speak His praise day and night. The enthroned elders celebrate His creatorial rights in regard to all things.

Romans 8 looks on to the final deliverance of the creation: it is a wonderful thing to be imbued with what God has in His heart. This marks the evangelist; he feels for every part of the creation as groaning under the influence and effects of sin. He is sensible of man's misery, and his effort is to enlighten him with the knowledge of God, for it is in this way alone that he can be relieved.

The blood on the mercy seat presents a very different thought to the blood of the paschal lamb on the door of the Israelite in Egypt. In the latter the individual is sheltered from the universal judgment: the blood marks off the believer in God's eye from the world. The Red Sea prefigures God's judgment of the world; the world was judged morally in the death of Christ. Baptism marks the believer off before man's eye as apart from the evil system in which Satan rules and the flesh lives, and in its moral import is the believer's acceptance of God's judgment of the world, and is thus a testimony to the world that it is judged; but this can have moral force only as the believer walks in the Spirit. The Spirit brings demonstration to the world "of judgment". What is in view in the early part of Exodus is to deliver man from the influence of Satan, and to put him into relationship with God on the ground of righteousness;

but in Leviticus 16 God is seen not only in relation to man, but to the whole universe, through the blood on the mercy seat.

As to the order of His ways in Exodus, the people were dealt with in pure grace up to chapter 19. God may intervene for our deliverance apart from any thought of state in us, but He will not own us as in relationship to Him as His people unless we judge the world and separate from it: "Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing: and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty". 2 Corinthians 6:17. Whatever God's thoughts were as to Israel, the people were not His congregation properly till they had crossed the sea. Baptism severs us publicly from the world; we cannot be regarded as in God's congregation until baptised. Baptism in its moral force is "the washing of regeneration", and it corresponds to the cleansing judgments which will usher in the world to come; the order of things which will be according to God, and with which He will identify Himself. He will be God of that world.

Salvation takes place here on earth: it is in Christ, and has become effective for man through elements which God has introduced down here, and which operate subjectively. The elements are "the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost" Titus 3:5. In Titus 2 the grace of God has brought salvation to all men, and in chapter 3 we learn how it is effected practically. "According to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour". Titus 3:5. The pouring out of the Spirit refers to Pentecost -- "Poured out on us". It is collective, and it is through Jesus Christ our Saviour. The same thing will take place, in principle, in the millennium, Joel 2:28, 29.

Chapter 16 stands alone. It is God, as it were, upon His throne as supreme in the universal order of things which He has created, and the infinite value of the sacrifice of Christ as meeting Him there in respect of sin in the creation. Man as such could have no possible footing in His presence apart from what spoke of the death of Christ -- the blood, and His personal excellence -- the sweet incense. Aaron could not enter into the holiest "at all times" to enter without the blood and the sweet incense would involve certain death. "That he die not" indicates God's holy judgment of man in the flesh. He who was made in the likeness of God, a creature in which the Creator could take pleasure, has become, through sin, so utterly unfit for the divine presence that judgment only is his portion there. This chapter shows that God would give man a footing before Him, but only as in Christ, whose blood witnesses to the removal, according to God's holy judgment, of the man that had offended. The blood was sprinkled upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat. The majesty of God had been offended: this is the first great fact to recognise. The blood of Christ being placed before God, He has become propitious toward man and toward the whole creation. The throne is rendered favourable to men. In preaching, this should be made clear. The blood on the mercy seat speaks of the death of Christ: the veil was rent when Christ died.

I should not like to limit the force of the gospel to man; its immediate application is to him, but it refers to the whole creation. We are the firstfruits of the creation. Here we have the universal effect of the death of Christ; and to be an evangelist according to God one must understand the teaching of this chapter. The scope of it is seen in verse 33, "he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the

congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation". Leviticus 16:33. We cannot set forth all the truth at once, but we should seek, in ministering, to indicate it in its entirety, for the object in preaching ought to be to set the soul of man in the light of God, and of all that vast system of things which He has before Him. Hence, as it is in Christ God shines out, and as it is in Him that every divine thought is taken up and maintained immutably in Man, He becomes, of necessity, the subject of all testimony.

Reconciliation refers to all things being taken up in Christ as Man on the ground of redemption. God is complacent in all. Propitiation is in the death of Christ; it refers to God as offended and dishonoured by man's sin. But reconciliation has reference to His affections; He had lost man, and now He has recovered him in Christ. We are before Him in Christ in all His acceptability. The headship of Christ involves reconciliation. Headship is asserted by love. Christ, having died for all, has established an incontestable claim over all. He is Head by God's appointment, but He is also Head in virtue of what He is in His own Person, and He recovers everything for God subjectively by the mighty influence of His love. As Head He makes known the love He bears to us, as having died for us, so that we become captured by Him in our affections, and led in triumph by Him to the Father.

Aaron here, as clothed in these holy linen garments, represents Christ as viewed in that infinite personal purity and dignity which qualified Him for the mighty work to be accomplished. He is not here clad in His garments of glory and beauty which speak of the varied excellences and glories which shine in Him as Man, and in which He appears before God in the service of the sanctuary; and in which others are associated with Him, they being clad also in garments

of glory and beauty. But in the chapter before us it is the great work of atonement that is in view, and in this He is alone. "And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place", Leviticus 16:17.

Aaron's house, as we know, represents the assembly. It is not, however, seen as associated with Him in service, Aaron's sons set forth this side as His house, the assembly is that which is the first interest of His heart. A man's house, or household, is his chief interest. The bullock accords with this: it speaks of the largeness, or greatness, of the offering of Christ. He gave Himself for the church, Ephesians 5. In result there will be a full reciprocation on the part of the church to the love thus shown. The goat for the sin offering represents the sacrifice of Christ in regard to Israel. There can be no change in Christ, of course, but a goat is not of the same value as a bullock, therefore, I think, Israel's relative place in the Lord's heart is indicated.

It is very noticeable that there is no scape bullock. This gives rise to a very important distinction between the position of Christians now and that of Israel in the future. They will know forgiveness only when they see Jesus; that is, when He reappears to them. Their sins have been put away, as our own, in His death, but they will not know this until He returns. We know forgiveness by the Spirit. "The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us". Hebrews 10:15. Indeed, it is not only so, but we, by the Spirit, are enabled to "see Jesus crowned with glory and honour". Hebrews 2:9.

Verse 2, "I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat". Leviticus 16:2. God takes a public place in the creation as its eternal centre. It is not the appearing of the glory at the door of the tabernacle: this will be to Israel. God appears in Christ; His glory shines in the face of Jesus. Now the glory is attractive: it is in the

face of the lowliest Man that ever trod the earth, The smallest child would be attracted by the face of Jesus. The glory is really the spirit of the new covenant: the Lord is that Spirit, and we are privileged to behold His glory. The new covenant speaks of God's love, and God's glory is the shining out of Himself in Christ. It is in the face of Jesus Christ, and the knowledge of it is to shine forth in the saints down here -- at least it shone forth in Paul.

LEVITICAL SERVICE

READING: Numbers 4

I think that when God numbers His people He indicates that He is taking account of them in connection with some given relation. It is a wonderful thing to be taken account of by God. "Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee". John 1:48. God takes account of us in our need, so as to relieve us, Exodus 3; but after we are delivered from Egypt and brought to God, we are regarded in another connection, i.e., in relation to the testimony. In chapter 1 the whole congregation is numbered save the Levites: and in chapter 2 each tribe is assigned a divinely given place in relation to the tabernacle.

Moses and Aaron combined represent authority and spiritual discernment. These are perfectly combined in Christ. The heads of the tribes would suggest certain responsibility in leadership among the saints. These things all appear in antitype in the early chapters of Acts.

Eligibility for a place in the ranks involved two requirements -- pedigree and a certain age, Numbers 1:18. Had these things been sedulously attended to in the church so many "false brethren" would not have been "brought in unawares". Galatians 2:4. At the outset, there was discrimination, as to those who should be recognised as in the fellowship. Peter said to Simon Magus, "Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter". Acts 8:21. In this chapter God is taking account of His people, and placing them in relation to His own interests. Pedigree refers, I judge, to genuineness; it is not a question, as in the case of Aaron's sons, of being derived from a certain parent-stock.

"Twenty years old" being the age of manhood, would refer to the believer as possessing the Spirit. Possessing the Spirit in a normal way, we give up

"childish things". Thus are we accounted of by God, and placed in the ranks of His warriors, so as to maintain and defend His testimony. This is to be learnt by the believer after he has believed on Christ and received the Holy Ghost. It is of the very greatest importance that we should learn this lesson, and, as having learnt it, to regard ourselves as not only taken up for blessing, but as placed down here in relation to the testimony of God.

The next consideration is the position we are to occupy. This is a further lesson, but quite as important as the first. Chapter 2 deals with this subject. "Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch", Numbers 2:2. Each one has to discover his given place, and he has to occupy that place, otherwise he is disregarding the Lord's arrangements. The place may seem uncongenial, and our neighbours may not be desirable, but nevertheless we must abide there. We have, of course, to get the Lord's mind as to it; assured of this, no other considerations must be allowed any place. I am not making much of the locality: the point is to discover the Lord's mind as to your path, and not to deviate from it. According to this chapter the Israelite had no choice. It is here the defectiveness of the 'popular gospel' is most manifest; it does not carry with it the thought of God's testimony, and that the convert is henceforth to be identified with it. The tabernacle prefigures the testimony really, it sets forth what is in God's mind in regard to the whole universe. It is not a question of work here, that is Levitical, and comes in later; evidently we cannot take the testimony up until we discover our place. You have to find out from the Lord what your place is; this will be a secret between Him and you. The Lord is jealous as to His own rights, and the ordering of our position

is entirely with Him. "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" John 21:22.

If these things were admitted by Christians generally, there would be a break-up in Christendom. People would see that the testimony is utterly at variance with human organisations, and hence, that in order to be in relation to the former, positions in the latter must be abandoned. Independency, too, is struck at the root, for the Lord's authority is involved in this side of the truth; therefore our wills and predilections have to be surrendered.

In chapter 3 the Levites, as a class, are claimed by God as His. God asserts His redemption rights over His people. All believers are included, and they are numbered without regard to spiritual growth or capacity -- "from a month old and upward". So far it is not the service of the Levites in detail that is in view: service from their side begins in chapter 8. In this section of the book we have the ordering of things from the divine side. "These also are the generations of Aaron and Moses". Numbers 3:1. Moses' sons are not mentioned. They were simply Levites, while here the object is to identify the priesthood, those to whom the Levites were to be given. The Levites are given to Aaron first, verse 6, and then to Aaron and his sons, verse 9. Christ and the saints viewed as priests are ministered to by the Levites. But the first great lesson to learn in connection with service, is God's right to us on the ground of redemption.

It is not a question of what you are to do, but that you recognise God's right to hold you for His service. It is not right to set young converts to work at once; no one would set a child of a month old to work, but God would impress all with His claim over them, and that He holds them for His service. The actual work you are to do will be indicated to you in due time. For this, the believer must not only have the Spirit, but he must be formed by the Spirit; he must,

as in the type, be not only twenty, but thirty years old. Service requires mature manhood. The Lord, in time, will give you something to do, and also grace to do it; and then woe to you if you do not fulfil your mission. Levitical service is not voluntary, it is conscriptional; "necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel!" 1 Corinthians 9:16.

In Numbers the word that indicates the character of Levitical service is bear. The priests typify the saints in their spiritual capacity, as ministering in the immediate presence of God in connection with divine things; the congregation, or tribes, represent us as identified publicly with the claims of Christ -- His standard; but the Levites prefigure those who bear the burden and drudgery involved in the maintenance of the testimony in this world. In 2 Corinthians 11 the apostle is forced, on account of the state of matters at Corinth, to speak of his experience as a servant. "Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches". 2 Corinthians 11:28. Paul was an exemplary Levite! He bore the saints of God in his heart. Levitical service is not limited to brothers; it is seen in the Scriptures in sisters as well. Phoebe was a "servant of the church", Romans 16:1, and Paul speaks of "women which laboured with me in the gospel", Philippians 4:3. There are many sisters now who are bearing things in prayer before God, and power and blessing in public ministry are, no doubt, often the fruit of this.

Although Levitical service is obligatory on all, yet it is carried out in love. The Levite is entirely dependent upon the priest for his work. The priest is the believer, viewed as having the Spirit, as spiritual, and so capable of understanding the mind of God; he sees what is needed to be done, and thus, as Levite, he, the same person, undertakes to do the work. As one of the congregation, the believer is viewed in his every-day circumstances; but here he

is identified with the standard of Christ, so to speak, and this will bring him into reproach and conflict. But the common circumstances of the wilderness path involve exercises, which enhance spiritual growth: thus, in a sense, priesthood is sustained by the members of the congregation, or common people, and, in turn, the priests augment Levitical service. You cannot have Levitical service apart from the priestly state. Ministers who have not a secular occupation are in some respects at a disadvantage; not being in practical contact with the world without, they miss the exercises connected therewith, which, as we said, tend to promote spiritual growth. As things are at present, servants are thrown almost entirely either with their own families or with the saints, and these do not constitute the wilderness. Still, entire occupation in the things of Christ is sanctioned by the Lord, and if the responsibility of such a position is fully accepted, there will be abundant cause for that exercise by which priestly growth is promoted, and this will make up for the loss of the experiences which are normal to the common person.

In chapter 4 the actual work of each family of the Levites is allotted to it. If we recognise obligation as to service, our work will be indicated in due time. Saul accepted the obligation to serve: he said, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" Acts 22:10. The Lord gave him his commission, but when he actually entered upon his service in the regular course, the fellowship of the saints in it was also an element of importance. The Holy Ghost said, "Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away". Acts 13:2,3. This principle is, I think, foreshadowed here in the relation of Aaron's sons to the Levites. Eleazar had the oversight of the Kohathites, while the Gershonites and the Merarites were under the supervision of Ithamar.

In the land the work of the Levites became less strenuous. This is easily understood, as the ark had reached its resting place -- the temple being built -- and therefore there was no further need to carry the tabernacle, 1 Chronicles 23:26. As serving in the temple, the Levite commenced work at the age of twenty years, 1 Chronicles 23:24 & 27. There is a certain connection between the land and the assembly as convened. One feature of the temple was that it was a resting place for the ark. David and Solomon both say, "Arise, O Lord God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength", 2 Chronicles 6:41; Psalm 132:8. In the wilderness the ark of the covenant went before to seek a resting place for the people; in the land they prepare a resting place for it. The resting-place now for the ark is the assembly. Where do you think Christ rests now? He can rest only in the affections of His own. It is true that He rests in the Father's affection, but this is not what is typified in the temple. "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith" (Ephesians 3:17) gives the thought. John 20 would suggest the idea of a resting place for Christ. Those in the upper room had been formed by His ministry, and they loved Him. When He came into Jerusalem and went into the temple, those there, the priests, who should have received Him were found to be His enemies, Matthew 21:12 - 17. Hence He went out to Bethany.

1 Corinthians 12 speaks of "distinctions of services", and this corresponds with Numbers 4. Some parts of service are, so to speak, more sacred than others. The ark and other furniture, vessels, etc., of the tabernacle were carried exclusively by the Kohathites, being previously carefully covered by the priests. These things refer to the Person of Christ and certain things which are in intimate relation to Him in a spiritual way. Evidently, therefore, to minister publicly, as a Levite, in connection with the

doctrine of the Person of the Lord, it is essential that we be in the priestly state, and under the immediate direction of the High Priest within. A state, formed entirely by the Holy Spirit, is requisite to capacitate us to handle what has reference directly to divine Persons. "The stranger that cometh nigh shalt be put to death". Numbers 3:10. "The stranger" has reference to the natural mind of man intruding itself into the things of God. The Kohathites carried their burden on their shoulders, but the sons of Gershon and Merari had wagons assigned to them. This indicates that the service typified in the two latter families was less sacred than that prefigured in Kohath.

In a general way the priest typifies a spiritual person, morally of the same order as Christ. But I think that priesthood always involves responsibility; that is, he is always (day and night seven days) under a charge, Leviticus 8:35. As in association with Christ in the assembly we are not exactly under a charge, it is entirely privilege; it is sonship, and in Canaan; but in the tabernacle, and the priest at the door of it, under a charge, testimony in the wilderness is in view. In Canaan we have entered, in the power of the Spirit, into association with Christ as the heavenly Man. We share the Father's love, which rests upon the Son. It is privilege and enjoyment.

THE WATER OF SEPARATION

Reading: Numbers 19.

Ques. Will you give an outline of what intervenes between chapter 4 and this chapter?

Ans. Up to chapter 10 things are presented in the order of regular sequence. What is in view, as we have seen, is the testimony of God in this world; the saints seen in relation to this; and then we get the service of the Levites, the Levites being given to the high priest and his sons. While, as we have been saying, the Levites are claimed by God as His on the ground of redemption, yet they are offered to Him. "Aaron shall offer the Levites before the Lord for an offering of the children of Israel", Numbers 8:11. The whole congregation identified themselves with the Levites, and then the Levites offered themselves to the Lord. Thus all the saints are figuratively seen devoting themselves to the Lord for service. Identified with the burnt offering and the sin offering, the Levites are set before Aaron and his sons, and they are offered "for an offering unto the Lord". Thus are we claimed by God for His service as redeemed by the blood of Christ, and also as offering ourselves up to Him in love. The Lord says, "The Levites shall be mine"; "I have taken them for myself". Numbers 8:14,16. Precious ground to be on in service!

Chapters 5 and 6 contain searching and wholesome instruction. The camp is to be kept pure. Then trespass against a brother; which, of course, is also against the Lord, must not pass unconfessed. The effective operation of the truth amongst the saints will be nullified unless impurity of every kind is judged; also trespass against the brethren. Note that where personal trespass occurs, reparation alone does not suffice, a fifth part has to be added. And if the aggrieved party is not there to receive the recompense; a Christian should not expect it, he should

think only of the restoration of the offender, yet it is to be given, it is given to God.

Next comes what the Lord only could detect, diversion from Him in our affections. This has reference to the church. He says to Ephesus, "I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love", Revelation 2:4. This arouses the Lord's jealousy, and there is a test. If unfaithfulness is proved, drinking death is the penalty. The dust from the floor of the tabernacle is put into the water, and the water is to be drunk. The dust has been said to be death in God's presence. "The priest shall write these curses in a hook, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water". Numbers 5:23. What had the effect of cancelling the curse, became itself a curse, where unfaithfulness was found. I think the result of this test is seen in Thyatira. The curse is executed in Jezebel. "I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts", Revelation 2:23.

Chapter 6 treats of Nazariteship. The Nazarite has the testimony before him. He surrenders all earthly joys, and disregards what would be a reproach to him in this world, long hair, because of the exigencies of the testimony. All Christians should be Nazarites, but as a matter of fact Nazariteship represents a special energy of the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 9 shows how this was manifested in Paul. The apostle waived his rights, not only as a man, but as a servant of Christ: "that we may put no hindrance", he says, "in the way of the glad tidings of the Christ". 1 Corinthians 9:12. The Nazarite comes into prominence when things are on the wane, or when they have gone to the bad among God's people. The blessing is, no doubt, preserved through the Nazarite; and God's name remains upon His people, Numbers 6:22 - 27.

In chapter 2 we have foreshadowed in the offerings of the princes the bounty of the saints towards God,

their reciprocation of His love made known in Christ. Twelve being the number of human perfection, this response on the part of the people is presented as perfect -- humanly so. At the beginning there was a complete answer in the church, by the Spirit, to the revelation of God. The offerings to the princes being the same throughout, indicates unity; perfect unity marked the saints after Pentecost. Unity then was not by formal agreement; it was the result of individual appreciation of Christ. The same object occupied and filled each one. Here the whole congregation, as represented in their princes, are seen as perfectly united in their gifts for the tabernacle. The wagons and bullocks do not refer to the same thing in Christianity as do the gifts for the dedication of the altar. The former, I think, refer to temporal things; they were useful for the Levites -- Gershon and Merari. The offerings for the dedication of the altar refer to what is spiritual. God signified His acceptance of all by speaking to Moses "from off the mercy seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two cherubims", verse 89. It is not a question of what was said, but that there was divine speaking under the conditions stated. It is in this way we are guided in our path in relation to the testimony.

In chapter 9 the people kept the feast of the passover; and the tabernacle is very prominent as that with which guidance in the wilderness stood connected. In chapter 10 we get instruction as to the trumpets, there is the sounding of the testimony, and the movement of the people in connection with this. The testimony also gathers the people, verse 3.

Chapters 11 - 21 record the breakdown of the people in the varied features in which this was seen, and the gracious provisions ordained by God in view of all this. The terrible character of the flesh, as inveterately opposed to everything that is of God revealed in Christ, manifests itself in two distinct forms, in

despising the heavenly land, Numbers 14, and rebellion against the authority and priesthood of Christ, Numbers 16. The answer to the first lies in the purpose of God. The earth should be filled with His glory; His elect should inherit Canaan, verses 21, 24. Numbers 15 shows the ground of this. The answer to Korah's rebellion is resurrection power in Christ (Numbers 17, the rod that budded). Christ risen is an irrefutable testimony against all fleshly pretensions to priesthood. A most encouraging feature for the man of God is the repeated appearance of "the glory of the Lord" on the tabernacle on occasions of the outbreak of evil in the congregation. God has His own way of indicating His approval, or disapproval, of the ways of His people.

Now we come to chapter 19 which contemplates the believer as passing through a scene which is essentially defiling, and it sets forth God's gracious provision for him in view of this, so that as contracting defilement in a world of corruption, he should not thereby defile the sanctuary of Jehovah. What is in view here is not the working of sin in the believer: that is dealt with in Leviticus 13 and 14, in the cases of leprosy. Here, chapter 19, it is the world without that is in view, that which we have no control over, and yet have to do with. It is polluted in every phase of it.

The red heifer was for a sin offering, but a unique one. The characteristics of the heifer indicate the instruction contained in the chapter. Her colour suggests distinctiveness. The Lord Jesus was here absolutely alone He was different from all others in the world. There was not another like Him. It is the death of such an One that is in view here. Besides being without blemish, the heifer was never under the yoke. The Lord never came under man's yoke. He was never affected by human influence. It is the death of one marked by these features that is before

us, and the cleansing is from defilement contracted by being in a scene in which there is the very opposite of those features.

Although the red heifer was a sin offering, its blood was not taken within the veil; neither was any part of it burnt on the altar. The blood was to be sprinkled directly before the tabernacle of the congregation. God dwelt there, and His people were to be maintained in purity as placed in relation to it. The blood was the basis of their communion with God in His sanctuary. Atonement is not in view; we get that in Leviticus 16; nor is it service in the sanctuary; but here it is that side of the sacrifice of Christ which affords a gracious provision for the maintenance of our souls in happy communion with God and His sanctuary, notwithstanding our having to pass through a corrupted world.

"The priest shall take cedar wood, and hyssop, and scarlet, and cast them into the midst of the burning of the heifer". Numbers 19:6. Man after the flesh is not only judged in the death of Christ, but also the whole system, from top to bottom, which he has built here. This is to be reverted to when defilement takes place. The ashes of the offering give testimony that the judgment of God has been executed on the first man and his world. This testimony is undoubtedly preserved by the Spirit in the church, It is kept in a "clean place", verse 9.

What God had in mind for Israel was that they were to be a peculiar people. We are to be this; we are to maintain a peculiar distinctiveness on the earth. The Lord maintained this throughout, and we are to be like Him. He says, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me". Matthew 11:29. Partaking of His character we are not to lose it. We lose it when we become like other men. The Corinthians "walked as men", 1 Corinthians 3:3. We are always in danger of partaking of the character of the country in which we live.

This is seen in the Corinthians, and the apostle mentions it as to the Cretans, quoting their own prophet. The influence on Christians of the peculiar character of a country like this is easily perceived. "He that toucheth the dead body of any man shall be unclean", Numbers 19:11. Unconverted people are "dead", and contact with them causes defilement. Our wills are not engaged, and therefore such defilement is not regarded as sin, but we become sinful if we do not avail ourselves of the water of cleansing. "That soul shall be cut off from Israel; for the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him: he shall be unclean", Numbers 19:13. And, "the man that is unclean, and doth not purify himself, that soul shall be cut off from the midst of the congregation; for he hath defiled the sanctuary of Jehovah", Numbers 19:20.

Ques. Does becoming unclean produce distance from the Lord in the soul?

Ans. Yes, and dullness. A man is not responsible for a dead body or any of the things mentioned being there; these give character to the scene through which we have to pass, but he is responsible to avail himself of the means of purification. Failing of this he is unclean, and so unfit for the fellowship of God's people. Persons of this kind conform outwardly to a certain standard of rectitude; there are no overt acts of evil; still the character of Christ is not there, they "walk like men". The application of the water of separation here means that as having come under the influence of men, we have become like them, and so are unsuitable to God; and that the character of Christ upon us is that alone which renders us practically acceptable to Him. A person may have been bright once, but may have got under some influence. What constitutes him unfit for the congregation is that he has not applied the water of separation. He has not judged himself in reverting to the fact that such an One as is indicated in the heifer

had to undergo the judgment of God on account of the very thing which has influenced him, and to which he has become assimilated. I think the ashes mean that the man after the flesh has been removed in judgment, the blood sprinkled before the tabernacle witnessing to this before God. It is important to note that the heifer was burnt in its entirety. This indicates God's holy abhorrence of the man after the flesh; he has been consumed root and branch in judgment in the death of Christ. How then can he be countenanced by the believer? To do so renders us unclean, and we have to revert to the ashes and the running water. The ashes are for the conscience, and the running water, I think, for the affections. It might be translated "living water". It is energetic, and refers to the Spirit. By the ashes our consciences are set at ease, and by the Spirit we are relieved in our affections, and are not only lifted above the defilement itself, but are made morally greater than that by which the defilement was caused.

THE BRAZEN SERPENT AND THE SPRINGING WELL

Reading: Numbers 21

I think it is clear that what comes out till the end of Numbers 20 has reference to the wilderness position and the tabernacle. Aaron was essential to that order of things, and his death indicates that it had terminated. What is in view from this chapter onward is life, to the end that there should be a people suitable to Canaan. The inhabitants of that land were not only to be justified; they were to be a living people.

In this chapter we have fully proved that the man after the flesh is hostile to God; essentially and utterly incorrigible. "The people spake against God, and against Moses". Numbers 21:5. God did not need this proof, but it is recorded for our learning. He "needed not that any should testify of man for he knew what was in man". John 2:25. Numbers records the believer's experience; that is, after a certain period he discovers that the flesh in him is opposed to God, and this becomes of great concern to him. This discovery by the believer is answered by the teachings of this chapter. There are two main parts in the gospel, namely, righteousness and life. The first is in Leviticus 16. God vindicates Himself in the mercy seat (the blood being there) in respect of the justification of man. The second is seen in Numbers 21. The serpent of brass was lifted up, so that man might look thereon and live. Life, like justification, is obtained on the principle of faith, but it is faith in Christ as bearing the condemnation of sin in the flesh. The serpent of brass is in view both in John 3 and Romans 8. In the former, eternal life is the result for the believer; but in the latter, life in the sense of power to live is contemplated. "The Spirit is life because of righteousness". Romans 8:10. This is life subjectively in the wilderness.

Righteousness does not settle the question of state: it speaks of God's attitude towards all men, as we see in Romans 3, but man needs power subjectively, and this is also announced in the gospel. Then there is the blessing which God purposed for man; this is eternal life. This is God's act of favour in Christ. In order that God should have that response which He looks for in His creatures, there must be a vital principle introduced. The Lord is a quickening Spirit, and so has power to introduce the spirit of life into the creation, and it is in this that God will be glorified. God is praised by those who live Hezekiah says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee". Isaiah 38:19. Eternal life is spoken of in Romans 5 and 6, but chapter 8 presents the subjective side; life in the Spirit in the believer as enabling him to fulfil righteousness in the wilderness. The law is now fulfilled where, so to speak, it fell to the ground as in the hands of the first man. "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". Romans 8:4.

Romans 3 sets forth the righteousness of God. In Christ -- the mercy seat -- God addresses Himself to all men as the Justifier of him that believeth on Jesus. This is for the conscience, but in order that there should be fruit for God the vital principle must be introduced. Revelation 4 speaks of living creatures: God is glorified in a sphere of life. The created sphere will become instinct with life, and hence there will be a universal response to God. The declaration of God's righteousness does not in itself produce this: there must be the introduction of life in a subjective way. Righteousness and eternal life are objective, and the Spirit forms the believer subjectively. What we have to see is that God in the mercy seat puts Himself in touch with the whole created sphere; but He would have a response, and this depends on the Spirit as life. "Let everything that has breath

praise the Lord". Psalm 150:6. Christ, as the last Adam, breathes the breath of life into all, and in virtue of this there will be universal praise.

Numbers 21 foreshadows the conditions, under which the believer discovers the terrible character of the flesh. "The people spake against God, and against Moses". Numbers 21:5. We find experimentally that the flesh is opposed to God and His authority in Christ, and this discovery baffles many a soul. There is the consciousness of hard thoughts against God, and, for want of light, we regard these thoughts as our own, instead of seeing that they spring from the flesh, which is ever at enmity with God. Thus Satan gets the advantage, and suggests to us that we have never been converted at all! It is here that the light of Christ, as typified in the serpent of brass, comes in for the relief of the believer. "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh". Romans 8:3. God, knowing the flesh perfectly, has condemned it and set it aside judicially in the death of Christ, and He does not any longer regard it as the state of the believer. So far this affords precious relief; but man must have a state or source of thought and affection. God affords us this in the gift of the Spirit. "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you". Romans 8:9. "Beer" -- the well that sprang up, denotes this side of the truth. "Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it". Numbers 21:17. The Christian is now happily clear of that which troubled him, being independent of it in the new and energetic source of affection and thought which he has in the Spirit. The sense of rebellion is displaced by a happy liberty before God in the realisation of His complacency in us as in Christ, and of that spring within which enables us to respond to this.

"The princes digged the well, the nobles of the people digged it, by the direction of the lawgiver

with their staves" Numbers 21:18. Neither the rod of authority, that of Moses, nor the rod of priesthood, that of Aaron, are the features here; it is what the people themselves do as represented in the leaders. The "lawgiver" for us would, I suppose, refer to the authority of Christ, which is always characteristic of the wilderness position, but what is prominent in the digging of the well and the singing, is the energy of the Spirit in the saints, as distinct from the official help of Christ, as having discovered this wonderful spring which we have in the Spirit dwelling within.

In John 4 eternal life is objective: the well springs up into it. John's epistle deals with eternal life as realised practically here among the saints. The Spirit forms the saints in a collective way so as to produce the conditions which constitute the sphere of eternal life. In Numbers and Romans 8 we have life viewed subjectively as in the individual but this has eternal life in prospect. In the main, life in Scripture is power to live. "The Spirit is life because of righteousness". Romans 8:10. This refers to the wilderness. Eternal life is blessing and is always in Canaan.

Romans 8 is what the Spirit is to the individual. We have to discover in detail what the Spirit is to us, and thus we set forward. You first receive, as a matter of light, what we have been speaking of as to the brazen serpent; then you receive the Spirit and give Him His place. You ignore the flesh, and turn to the Spirit. There is a point where the Spirit becomes in a way an object, not of course as Christ is, but according to what we get here -- the song is to the Spirit. "Spring up, O well!" In Romans 5 the Spirit comes through Christ, but in chapter 8 He is spoken of as characterising the state of the believer, and also as making intercession for us according to God. The Spirit is a subject of testimony, concerning which the believer has to be enlightened. It is most

essential that he should become instructed as to the blessed Spirit of God who indwells him.

John 4:10 shows that God was on the line of giving, and what He gives is living water. If you knew God as a Giver, you would ask. I have great belief in encouraging people to pray. People suffer dreadfully from want of light, but they suffer, too, from want of confidence in God. I would say to any one who has not the Spirit, If you ask you will get Him, Luke 11:13.

Ques. In Ephesians 1:13 it says, "In whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise".

J.T. "After" may involve a day or a week or a month. Those who primarily composed the assembly at Ephesus did not get the Spirit immediately on believing; see Acts 19. It is true that they had not heard a full gospel, but even after Paul's instruction they received the Spirit only through the laying on of the apostle's hands. The Samaritans also had believed some time before they got the Spirit, Acts 8. Then on the other hand, Cornelius and his company received the Spirit before they were baptised, or had made any profession of faith. He fell upon them while Peter was speaking. There is, no doubt, special dispensational teaching in these cases, but they show, at any rate, that there is no uniform rule as to how and when the believer receives the Holy Spirit. The fact that the Spirit may be received in answer to prayer in no way trenches on God's sovereignty in giving Him. All that God has for man is on the principle of sovereign gift, and yet, though He gives freely, He encourages us to pray for things. He does give freely, He gives above all we can ask or think. "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?" Romans 8:32. The Holy Spirit had been promised in the Old Testament. He would be given

consequent on Jesus being glorified, yet the Lord says, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter". John 14:16. Indeed, we may say, that all that the Lord prays for in John 17 the Father would of Himself do of necessity. Christ is a life-giving Spirit, and yet He asks life of God: "He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever". Psalm 21:4. Further, the Lord is Heir of all things, and yet we get, "Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession". Psalm 2:8. All this serves to show the immense importance of prayer, that while God gives freely to His people, yet He delights to hear us ask for things.

Ques. What is the difference between the giving of the Spirit in John 20 and in Acts 2?

J.T. In John 20 the Lord is seen as the last Adam; He is breathing the breath of life into man. What is prominent in John's gospel is the Person of Christ. Chapter 20 presents Him in His greatness as a life-giving Spirit. He infuses life into the creation of God. Acts 2 speaks of Christ according to what He is officially; He is made Lord and Christ. Thus He receives the Spirit from the Father and sheds Him forth. It is one thing to dwell on the Person of Christ, and it is another thing to dwell on what He gives. What He gives is more prominent in Acts 2. In Acts 2 the Spirit comes personally and forms the house of God here on earth. It is the baptism of the Spirit once for all; the definite act of Christ. There is no such thing as a double pouring out of the Spirit. Acts 10:44 does not say that He fell from heaven; it is the active force of the Spirit taking possession of the Gentiles that is implied.

Ques. What is the meaning of Romans 8:9?

J.T. It is a very solemn scripture. Persons might be in the assembly at Rome and not have the Spirit of Christ. Of course, the Spirit of God and the Spirit

of Christ refer to the Holy Ghost, but it is noticeable that the expression changes. The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of that Man: the Spirit that characterised Him here on earth. Devoid of this a man is not a Christian, whatever his profession. Colossians gives us the traits of Christ, and these are now to be produced in the saints. We need to refer to the gospels to see fully what the Spirit of Christ is, and that is the Spirit that is to obtain. It is for us to see that it obtains in us. The Lord never sought promotion. Satan would have given it to Him, and the Jews would have made Him King, John 6:15. Promotion in God's world involves going down in this world. The Lord said, "I am among you as he that serveth". Luke 22:27. "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9) is a solemn word for all who are numbered among Christians.

Strong enemies come into view in Numbers 21; but they are all easily overcome. When we give the Spirit His place our march becomes victorious: "we are more than conquerors through him that loved us". Romans 8:37. Strictly speaking, the wilderness was over; the people of Israel were already taking possession of divinely given territory, although it was not Canaan. Canaan was God's place for them, They were not to stop short of the promised land, but, as dwelling there, they were to control and enjoy all the territory promised to Abraham. The Christian is not to stop short of enjoying his heavenly portion, and it is as realising this that he is enabled to value rightly, and take advantage of, every other spiritual blessing.

READING JOSHUA 5

Ques. Will you explain a little as to what comes in between what we read this morning and what is before us this afternoon?

J.T. It is important to see that the types generally represent the truth from the side of the experience of the believer. Take the brazen serpent. Many have presented it as representing the atoning side of the death of Christ, but that is not so; the believer is not concerned at that stage of his experience as to sins, or God's attitude toward him but he is concerned as to his own state, which he finds to be contrary to God. The side presented, therefore, is just what he requires; he requires to see that God has set that state aside. If bad, there is no use in expecting from it; it is a great thing to see that God has set it aside so that the believer is not to be distressed or defiled by it. There he discovers that he has a new vital element within him, whereby he is able to live above that state. Next, having recognised the Spirit, we become conscious of what we are in the eye of God. Balaam's prophecies represent the vision of the Almighty; the prophet had his eyes open to see things from God's point of view. So the believer takes account of things as God sees them; that is, God takes account of you not as in the flesh, but as in the Spirit. The second numbering of the people is that, as thus suitable to God, they might find their place in His own land -- in Canaan. Thus the Scriptures meet the believer at every stage of the way, and furnish him with light, as he needs it. Jordan, the existence of death as Satan's power, is the last great barrier between our souls and the region of God's purpose. The Spirit enables you to take account of Christ as the Ark of the covenant going into death to set it aside.

The two numberings of the people give the distinction between the two parts of the book of Numbers. The first was in relation to the tabernacle and to the wilderness, the second in relation to God's purpose. In this chapter they are all over the river and in the land, and the first thing mentioned is the effect of this upon certain occupants of the territory.

Ques. What answers to the territory that fell to Israel east of Jordan?

J.T. I think Romans 8 answers to it. It is not Canaan, yet it is divinely given territory. I think that all conflict and territory acquired outside of Canaan have reference to the work of the Spirit in the individual believer. This does not go beyond the teaching of Romans.

Ques. What answers to the Amorite now, verse 1?

J.T. The Amorite here is in Canaan. He is represented by what we get in Ephesians 6. Conflict in Canaan refers to the saints collectively as risen with Christ, and in the power of the Spirit taking heavenly ground in the apprehension of their souls and in testimony.

Ques. What was the character of the opposition they met with before they passed over Jordan?

J.T. Sihon and Og typify certain formidable obstacles to our progress after the Spirit is recognised, and the overthrow of these means distinct gain, for their lands are possessed. Then the Moabites appear. These are, perhaps, the most dangerous of all enemies and there are but few who are not more or less overcome by them. The king of Moab hired Balaam to curse Israel. This is one phase of Moabitish opposition. Satan attacks us in our consciences so as to prevent us from entering into the enjoyment of God's blessing. The truth of Romans 8:28 to 39 meets this. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?" Romans 8:33. The believer knows now that he is one of God's elect, and that God will not admit of any charge

against him. Further, Christ is at the right hand of God, and makes intercession for us. Now if the enemy has failed on that side, if he cannot overcome on the line of accusation, he turns to another, that is, seduction. In Pergamos there were those who taught the doctrine of Balaam. It is very important that we should see how the enemy, after failing on the side of accusation, then tries seduction. The daughters of Moab represent the seductive character of the world. The exhortation to the young men in 1 John 2:15 was, "Love not the world". The daughters of Moab little knew that they were the instruments of Balaam's subtlety. A friend of yours may unconsciously be an instrument in Satan's hands of making things attractive to you, so that you may be ensnared by them- We see this working at Corinth; the Christians there were affected by the world around them. From Numbers 21 the tabernacle is not the prominent feature: it is a question of the work of God in our souls in virtue of which we enter on divine territory. In Canaan we get what is collective. In this chapter, Joshua 5, you get the Lord's host. Now the saints are on new ground in connection with Christ. It is now the Lord's battle; on the wilderness side of Jordan Israel spoke in the first person singular, "If I and my cattle drink of the water, then I will pay for it". Numbers 20:19. Here, Joshua says to the man with the drawn sword "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" The answer is, "Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come". Joshua 5:13,14. Conflict in Canaan has reference to the Lord's interests -- the testimony.

Ques. What are the Edomites?

J.T. They are not viewed as enemies: they represent those who are of the same outward origin as ourselves, and are so far owned of God. So we are not to make war with them, although they are marked by inward jealousy. There are a good many

who know about warfare in Canaan who do not live in Canaan; that is very sad. We see these in the two and a half tribes. They were away from home when in Canaan. They had much cattle, and thought the land of Gilead a good place for cattle, and so desired to have their inheritance there. Seemingly they had more regard for their cattle than for themselves. Moses accedes to their wish on condition that they go over Jordan and fight. They are perfectly willing to go over provided they could return.

In this chapter the believer is no longer occupied with himself: the difficulties are over; death itself disappears; he now accounts himself as risen with Christ, and is entirely on the Lord's side. He sees now that the Lord has a set of interests. He is the Lord of the whole earth; it is all His. This is seen at the passage of Jordan. In delivering His people from Egypt what is prominent is the Lord's claim over them. They were His, and they and all their belongings must leave Egypt. Moses said he would not go alone; he would take all out of Egypt: the children and their cattle, not a hoof was to be left behind. I think the meaning of it is, that when you become a believer you accept baptism. If you have a household you accept it for yourself and for your household: all must be brought over. But in going into Canaan you cannot take anybody with you, you have to go in yourself. That is a question of the work of the Spirit in the believer, a question of state. The children and cattle do not appear at Jordan. It is of great importance to see that Numbers 21 prepares us for Canaan. The instruction up to that had reference to the wilderness position. From chapter 21 onward it is the question of the effect of the Spirit in the Christian. In circumcision the believer disowns all connection with Egypt. What might distinguish us in the world is a reproach in the sphere of the Spirit. On this new ground anything of the world is a

reproach, for everything is new and of God here: "Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new". 2 Corinthians 5:17. They ate the old corn of the land. The manna is Christ according to what He was as a man among men: all His ways were marked by a new and heavenly grace. The shewbread is the way He acted in relation to the testimony. The manna was for every one in the camp; it was there for all. We have to learn Christ thus. There is nothing here for the believer, so he has to discover that he has to live on Christ viewed in that light. Then we have to find what He was here in relation to the testimony, or we shall not be sustained, as identified with it. The old corn of the land is the heavenly Man in His own sphere. The believer wants to discover how Christ is at home; that is, in the assembly. Canaan is the sphere in which believers come to know Christ, and enjoy Him, in relation to His people. In our daily circumstances our souls are sustained by the manna. The gospels are where we find the manna; it is, as has been said, Christ as He was here. He lived in dependence on God here. In the christian circle we get another kind of food. There we get Christ as the old corn of the land. The shewbread is Christ in relation to God's testimony; so the priests alone ate it. The apostle speaks of Jesus Christ witnessing a good confession. In conflict you would revert to Christ as to how He met the enemy. Mark's gospel presents Christ in relation to the testimony. What He did and what He said are made prominent: "He hath done all things well". Mark 7:37. It is important to consider Mark in that light. As identified with the testimony we thus learn how to conduct ourselves, and how we are to be sustained. I have no doubt that Luke specially gives us the manna; although, of course, it is found in all the gospels, the human side is more prominent in Luke. In Mark we see Christ as the shewbread; he omits what relates to the birth of the Lord,

and introduces Him at once as the Vessel of the testimony. "Jesus came into Galilee preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom of God", Mark 1:13. John gives the old corn of the land. His narrative ends properly with Christ, as the risen heavenly One, outside of all here in the circle of His brethren.

In chapter 1 John's two disciples ask the Lord, "Where abidest thou?" John 1:38. The answer to that is really seen in chapter 20. John 20 is the heavenly One; He is not only risen, but heavenly. "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father". John 20:17. In the assembly He is known as the heavenly Man. As such we have part with Him. John 6:27 presents the Son here on earth to give food to man. The bread He gives is His flesh. It is a world of death that is in view, and He Himself will become the bread of life. The believer has to appropriate the death of Christ in order to live. "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you". John 6:53. There is no life in man here. The old corn of the land is strictly Christ in resurrection: He is known in relation to those risen with Him. This food is in Canaan. You have in spirit passed out of the world altogether, when you have passed through Jordan. What you feed on is the blessed heavenly Man. "The manna ceased". Joshua 5:12. In our case the wilderness side continues, but the manna and the old corn of the land belong to different spheres: the first belongs to the wilderness, the second belongs exclusively to the land.

There are two aspects in which Canaan is to be viewed. First, it represents the sphere of heavenly privilege and enjoyment, that in which we enjoy the Father's affections, which rest on the Son. John 20 and Colossians are on this line. Being risen with Christ is a question of faith, but we must be quickened in our affections in order to appreciate the great privilege of association with Christ which is accorded to us. But the church witnesses to the claim of Christ,

and her place in the heavenlies in association with Him. The place of Christ and the church in the counsels of God has to be taken possession of now in the power of the Spirit, and it is this that answers to conflict in the land. This is the other aspect in which Canaan is to be viewed. It is the point of view taken in the epistle to the Ephesians. Joshua represents Christ as the spiritual Leader of His people. Moses represents the authority of Christ and the Word, hence as a typical character he could not lead the people into Canaan; authority does not take us into Canaan; this is effected by the Spirit through the affections. Christ becomes known to us as Head: we see that He has gone through death, and we follow. It is an entirely new experience, but the One we have learned to love has gone before, and we follow Him; on reaching the banks of Jordan we find that the waters are all gone, and we pass over dryshod. What we get in Joshua is what is least understood. The circumstances were very extraordinary; they had not passed that way before. It was an entirely new thing. The ark went before them two thousand cubits. What the believer encounters here in the journey of his soul is death as the last great barrier to his entering on the ground of divine purpose. To have to say to it apart from Christ would mean eternal engulfment, but on coming to it, the Ark of the covenant having entered into Jordan, the believer finds its power completely annulled. When the ark touched the waters they disappeared. It was the time Jordan overflowed all its banks; when death exercised its greatest strength and authority over man. In John 19 we get, so to speak, the waters rolling at their very highest, but in chapter 20 they are exhausted and have disappeared. When Mary comes into contact with Christ there is no indication of the existence of death. When the people came to Jordan there was no water in sight, the bed of Jordan

was perfectly dry. Christ has "annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings". 2 Timothy 1:10.

The twelve stones in Jordan witness to the fact that Christ has been actually into death for us; those taken out of Jordan and placed at Gilgal are a testimony that He has been in it and has come out of it in resurrection. We have to go into Canaan to get the benefit of this testimony. The gospel announces to us that Christ is risen. Mary Magdalene crossed over in her soul. The "two disciples" were, for the moment, like the two and a half tribes; they go to their own home. It is only affection that will lead you over. Mary was over when the Lord discovered Himself to her; she was in contact with a risen Man. The twelve stones at Gilgal point to Christ risen. When He made Himself known to Mary, death could not enter into her mind. A person risen suggests an entirely new line of thought. "He showed unto them his hands and his side". John 20:20. This would answer to the twelve stones in Jordan. The marks in His hands and His side were witness that He had been into death.

THE RESTING PLACE OF THE GLORY

1 Samuel 4:19 - 22; 1 Samuel 5:1 - 6; Psalm 78:59 - 69;

Revelation 21:10,11

I desire To say a word to you in regard to the present and eternal resting place, or location, of the divine glory. I assume that every believer would be interested in the glory of God. It is that which is most attractive as the end of all His ways. We are told that the God of glory appeared to Abraham, and I take it that Abraham's faith would connect itself with the glory of Him that appeared to him, and as Abraham is the father of all them that believe, all believers would, normally, be interested in the divine glory. Therefore, as interested in the glory, we would naturally be concerned as to the location of it.

I think we can see a true child of Abraham in the wife of Phinehas; there was in her an appreciation of the glory. She was the wife of a priest who, though a custodian of the ark of the covenant, had little or no concern as to it; but in her we can discern the faith that appreciates the divine glory, and she felt its departure. It had departed, and she missed it. We might all inquire as to whether we have missed the glory.

I would endeavour to explain what I mean by the glory departing. The thing to see is that the glory of God was connected with the world-system that then was: it was primarily connected with the responsibility of man. Joseph was the leading tribe; the birthright was his. The glory was set up in connection with Joseph; that is, in the tent in Shiloh, which God placed among men. The Lord Jesus Christ is the strength and glory of God. He is the true Ark of the covenant who voluntarily came among men. He came here in connection with the

world-system which then existed, and of which Israel was the centre. But it is not so now; you can find nothing of God in connection with the world at the present time. For that you have to revert to the time when the glory was in the tent which God placed among men. I do not know of anything more affecting than the position of Christ here among men. The Lord Jesus Christ was a Man here, and thus among men was the strength and glory of God; therefore the glory was connected with this world, not morally but outwardly, and in testimony. But you could not find a trace of it today anywhere in the world.

One would scarcely desire to leave an order of things where the divine glory was. If I had been here when the Lord Jesus was here I should not have cared to leave. There was nothing in common between Christ and the world-system; but nevertheless He was here, and the glory of God was never more among men than when Christ was here, but it was in connection with an order of things uncongenial to it.

I do not know whether that is clear to you, but if it is, it will enable you to discover the change, now that the glory has departed. I could understand souls having hopes in regard to a world in connection with which the glory of God was; that would be perfectly right, but it has departed. It is not that there is not glory in connection with this world; it were folly to deny this, and all men are set for it, but it is human glory. The Spirit of God speaks of the glory of this world. Satan took the Lord up into a high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. The Spirit of God records for us that the kingdoms of the world and their glory were made to pass before the Son of God. But it was not God's glory, but glory built up by the genius and energy of men in connection with men. You could

not have a kingdom without men. It began with Nimrod. There is glory in connection with this world, and all men of every class have ever been bent upon advancement in the world; but its glory is the glory of man. The enemy would bring this world's glory to your attention, but it has to come under the judgment of God. Do you know why the enemy brings forward the glory of the world? It is in order to enthrone himself in the minds and affections of men as their god. His power is subservient to his desire to become the god of this world. He says, "All this power will I give thee ... If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine". Luke 4:6,7. That is the condition. I do not say that he offers so much to all, but he offers something to each. His political power is subservient to his ambition to become god; he wishes to be god. It is very solemn, because any recognition in you of the glory of this world is a recognition of the authority of its prince.

Satan was not always prince of this world, nor god either. He has become both. He became god in virtue of having become prince. He was not prince, for instance, when David ruled. When David ruled he was the prince of this world; and so with Solomon. While their kingdoms lasted the God of Israel was supreme. God was owned and worshipped at Jerusalem, and this, too, even by the nations. The kingdom establishes God's authority in men, and this makes room for Him in our hearts, so that He is worshipped as the one true God. But when the Lord came to this world what came to light was that its throne was in Satan's hands. Against Christ were gathered together Herod, Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel. Satan had marshalled them all against the Anointed of God. The Lord called him the "prince of this world". He says, "The prince of this world cometh and hath nothing in me". John 14:30. Later, he is called "the god of this

world". 2 Corinthians 4:4. As prince of this world Satan crucified Him who was the true God, and so enthroned himself as god. The Lord said that Satan had nothing in Him, and we need to watch that he has nothing in us. "He that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not". 1 John 5:18. Among true Christians Christ is owned as the true God, while all outside lies in the wicked one. Satan is god there, hence the exhortation to the children to keep themselves from idols. But when Satan was seen as prince of this world, the glory of God departed from it. The world has refused Christ, but He has also refused it. He could not remain identified with an order of things which had proved itself to be under the domination of the enemy. The Lord's withdrawal was judicial: the world should see Him no more: He had left it for ever. The favour of His presence would not again be accorded to it. But this was not all. His departure meant the judgment of the world and the casting out of its prince.

I turn now to 1 Samuel 5 to enlarge on this a little. The ark of the covenant fell into the enemy's hand, and was unprotected. There was no priestly hand there to protect it. It speaks to us of Christ. All forsook Him and fled. He was the Ark alone in the enemy's hand. Does it not touch your heart to think that the Ark of the covenant came voluntarily among men? The divine glory was here; there was no reproof from it, no demand; it shone resplendent among men. But there was no response to it, no appreciation of it, and at the end God "delivered his strength into captivity, and his glory into the enemy's hand". Psalm 78:61. Is it not affecting to see that blessed One delivered into the hands of His enemies? Those who should have been the protectors of the ark (the priests) were in hostility to Christ. You will remember how the ark was to be carefully covered by the priests, and delivered into the hands of the Kohathites

to carry, but there was no one to put forth a hand to care for Christ.

Now I want you to dwell upon the mode of its departure. It was not such as is seen in Ezekiel, that is, the glory ascending from the house. The Lord might have ascended to heaven from the mount of transfiguration: the glory would have been departing thus; but the mode of His departure was quite different from that. From the mount the Lord went to Jerusalem to die; He would go out by the cross; by Gethsemane, Pilate's judgment hall and Golgotha. But while all this involved humiliation and outward defeat, the Lord in His exit from this world accomplished the overthrow of the god of it. Dagon is a figure of the god of this world, and he was the first to fall after the ark fell into the Philistines' hands, and the Philistines also came under the judgment of God. The captivity of the ark meant the destruction of God's enemies. The Lord went down; suffered death, but He arose triumphant. There was no priestly hand there, but the Father was there. Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father. That indicates the expression of the Father's affections. There was no one else interested there. "The Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach". Psalm 78:65. What an intervention, beloved friends, on the part of God! What does resurrection involve? The destruction, morally, of the god of this world, and the judgment of this world itself. "Now is the judgment of this world now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all unto me". John 12:31,32. Who is left? The prince is gone, and the world is gone, but the Ark is left. The glory of God in the face of Jesus remains, and He becomes the central gathering point for all. Is not that victory? That is the victory of the Son of God.

I have endeavoured to dwell upon the departure of the Ark, and what it accomplished in departing; but now I would seek to show where the glory is established. The passage I read in Psalm 78 helps us here. I think the first point is to see that God will never again set up His glory in connection with the present order of things, in connection with man in the flesh. "He refused the tabernacle of Joseph". Psalm 78:67. Joseph here represents Israel in responsibility: the tabernacle was in connection with this tribe, which now is refused. "But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved". Psalm 78:68. I desire to make clear that the glory is henceforth connected with an order of things which is entirely after God. Its resting place eternally is in that which is the fruit of sovereign counsel and mercy. God will never commit His glory again to the responsibility of man. It is no longer a question of birthright; it is a question of sovereign counsel. He "chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved". Psalm 78:68. There the glory is established for ever. The choice of Judah and Zion speaks of sovereign counsel and love. But Judah and Zion are not all; there must be a building. God will prepare a place for the glory. "He built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever". Psalm 78:69. Is not stability there? That verse indicates the greatness and stability of the structure. Of old the sanctuary was the resting place of the ark. "Arise, O Lord, into thy rest: thou, and the ark of thy strength". 2 Chronicles 6:41. In Psalm 78 God secured a permanent resting place and suitable abode for His own glory. Hence He built His sanctuary like high palaces; but that is not all: "Like the earth which he hath established for ever", Psalm 78:69. That is to be the receptacle for the divine glory. It is well to see how entirely different the new location is from the old. The old was "the tent which he placed among men" (Psalm 78:60) but the glory left it. The new is based upon divine

counsel, divine mercy, and is a divine structure. That is the present location of the divine glory. Now in Revelation 21 it is easy to see the connection. In Acts 7:48 we read, "The most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands". A temple of stone and mortar is no receptacle for the glory of God. The glory of God, it is true, filled the tabernacle and the temple, but these were but figures of the true dwelling-place. They were "made with hands", and so could not contain the glory of God. God is love, and wherein could His glory rest save in affection formed by the Spirit? This is to be found in the assembly, which, as the passage I read in Revelation shows, is the true abode of God's glory. "Having the glory of God", She has it. The glory was not partially there: it dwells there. The wall of the city has twelve foundations. Did you ever see a city with twelve foundations? There is stability in this wonderful structure. Revelation speaks not only of the heavenly city, but of the world in which it is to shine. "The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ" Revelation 11:15. Our Lord will have a world: He is going to have a world of His own. Is that scene in which His glory is to be reflected in this marvellous structure in your heart? Phinehas' wife felt that the glory had departed, and she died. If she had lived she would have seen it reinstated by David. We can see the glory reinstated, but it is in connection with another kingdom and another world. The effect on the believer of seeing this is very great. What would have been the effect on this woman had she lived to see the ark established in Zion?

I would just add a word as to the present moment. In the future the glory will be in the assembly, but it is to be there morally now. I would refer to Ephesians 3. The apostle's prayer was that the saints should be strengthened with power by the Father's Spirit in the inner man, that Christ should

dwell in their hearts by faith. The saints are formed inwardly by the Father's Spirit, and hence Christ has a dwelling place in their affections. Thus, although cast out by the world, the Lord has a resting place in the assembly. The Father loves the Son; He raised Him from among the dead, and not only so, but He has formed for Christ here on earth, where He suffered and died, an abode in the affections of His people.

Well, it is the Lord's thought that we should be intelligent as to this great subject, and one's prayer is that He may help us in regard to it.

Pages 47 to 128 "Notes of Readings and Addresses, Toronto", 1908 (Volume 6).

SONSHIP

Galatians 4

J.T. I suppose sonship is that state in which man is recovered for God permanently. It is a state in which man is to God's pleasure, and in which he yields that affection which God appreciates.

W.H.F. Sonship is connected with His counsels.

J.T. Yes. I was thinking of the liberty of affection which sonship involves on our side, and as sons we are sympathetic with God in all that is before Him and we are admitted into all His counsels; so that man in the state of sonship accords with God's mind in regard to humanity.

W.H.F. There is the response of affection.

J.T. Yes. It is the affection of those who are in liberty with God. It was said of the creation, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy". Job 38:7. I think that gives the idea of what sonship is. It indicates that, in that state man is sympathetic with God and rejoices in all the works of His hands; so that evidently if the saints are to be in that state they must be delivered from selfish interests.

A.H. That will be true in the world to come.

J.T. That is what will characterise the age to come. Man will be recovered in sonship, so that the spirit of bondage no longer exists. Therefore, the allusion to Hagar and Sarah, and Ishmael and Isaac, in this chapter, helps us considerably in the apprehension of sonship.

F.L. I think in that line it is helpful to see the way in which sonship is connected with hove. Love is first mentioned in Genesis 22:2, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac whom thou lovest". That is one

cardinal idea attached to it, and then the next point is in connection with the deliverance of Israel: "Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. Affection and service. But then it is the service of free men. They must be set free to serve.

R.S.S. What would you say was the original thought of sonship? Where is it first brought in?

J.T. I suppose the passage I alluded to in the book of Job. The sons of God are mentioned in the Scriptures before, but Job 38 refers to something anterior. Job refers to the foundation of the earth,

R.S.S. Would that passage in Job refer to angelic beings?

J.T. Doubtless; but it speaks of sons, and I think it suggests the thought of sonship. They were in full sympathy with what God was doing.

W.L.P. You mean that what is said of them shows what sonship is?

J.T. I think the fact that they shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were laid, shows that they were in full sympathy with God in what He had before Him; for in laying the foundations of the earth, God had in view the establishment of all that was in His mind. The earth was to be the theatre of His ways, and His sons were in sympathy with Him in what He was doing, so that now, as our brother says, it is as sons we enter into God's counsels, and they occasion joy to us.

R.S.S. It is remarkable that these angelic beings were in sympathy with God in connection with an order of beings that should take precedence of themselves -- mankind.

J.T. For the earth was not made for angels, but to be inhabited by man.

F.L. Do you not think the underlying thought of sonship is really the place that Christ was pleased to take up in incarnation? When He comes in incarnation He takes up a certain position towards God,

and that gives the whole tone and character to sonship.

J.T. I do not suppose sonship had any real existence in man till Christ became Man.

F.L. So you can only understand it as you see it in Christ,

J.T. Therefore the gospel of Matthew is the most helpful of the New Testament Scriptures as to showing historically the development of the truth of sonship. That is, it is seen in Christ, who answers to what Israel ought to have been. As you were saying, in Exodus 4:23 it is, "Let my son go that he may serve me". Israel never touched that, never could have. Therefore when the Lord appears in manhood He goes down into Egypt so that it could be said, "Out of Egypt have I called my Son". Matthew 2:15. There it was no mere figure, but the reality of it in Christ; and it is as in the land of Israel, that the heavens are opened and the public declaration is made, "This is my beloved Son". Matthew 3:17. So that I think in Christ you have the beginning of sonship in man.

R.S.S. According to God.

J.T. You could not have sonship in man before Christ, save in figure.

F.L. I suppose it would be in that same line that Matthew 16:16 comes in -- the confession of Peter, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". And then I was thinking that in chapter 17 we get the freedom of the house for the sons.

J.T. That is where the Christian is admitted.

F.L. That is the principle of what we get here in Galatians -- the children free.

J.T. Quite so. The tax, or tribute, had reference to the temple, and the temple belonged to God; that was recognised even by the Jews. And I fancy that is where the application of sonship is little understood now, because we have to do with God's house. The

question is, whether believers are on the footing of strangers, or sons in God's house.

R.S.S. Will you open up that a little?

J.T. I think by the behaviour of many of God's people in the assembly you are forced to the conclusion that they are in the spirit of strangers. They feel strangers there, and if not that, they feel that at any rate there is some tribute laid upon them.

R.S.S. How does that come out?

J.T. They act as if something were expected of them, which should never mark a Christian, for in the assembly there is nothing to be exacted from you.

F.L. You are accorded the liberty of the house.

A.A.T. Would you simplify it by explaining what the house is?

J.T. The house is formed of believers who have the Spirit. "Whose house are we". Hebrews 3:6. Christians are the house of God now, but you will find in individuals that they act as if they were under tribute. They are not in liberty. A very little thing may show it.

A.A.T. The Lord has pre-eminence: "Son over God's house".

J.T. But I speak of the attitude souls assume there. People may assume humility; it may he honest enough, but it indicates a certain humbleness of mind which is of no value. On the contrary, it is objectionable, for the assembly is God's house and is the home of the believer. Every believer should feel he is a son, and as such has full title to that place. Of course there is no liberty for the flesh. It is under a tax there.

Rem. The believer should not take the place of a servant.

J.T. Not in the assembly.

G.A.T. If I am in the good of the assembly, am I a son?

J.T. It is sonship that capacitates you for the assembly. If we are not in the light of sonship we could not act but as strangers.

G.A.T. Where does service come in?

J.T. That is individual; as a servant you go below the saints to serve them, but as sons we are all on the same platform. As a servant you are on lower ground than the person you serve.

Rem. A son continues free.

J.T. That is important. God has taken up man in sonship, and in permanency. God is never going to lose man again. God had taken up man in sonship and he abides in the house for ever.

Rem. That is on the ground of resurrection.

J.T. On no other ground could it be for us. Christ was in sonship before resurrection; that must be recognised.

F.L. That is what I meant when I said we must get the underlying thought in Christ, the object being to recover manhood for God; we are brought in on the ground of resurrection.

J.T. We should seek to get at the moral value of God's public announcement at the baptism of Christ. "This is my beloved Son". Matthew 3:17. Every man who has had children knows what it is to have a son, or a child at any rate. God would announce that He has a Son, and as God's Son He abides in God's house for ever; so that in sonship God has recovered men in perpetuity.

W.H.F. There cannot be any breakdown in it. God can never lose man again.

Rem. Adam was only a figure.

Ques How are we to understand Genesis 6:2?

J.T. It is an allusion, I think, to angels. Some have thought it alludes to the sons of Seth, and there cannot be too much objection if Seth be taken account of as a figurative person, but I think it alludes to angels.

A.A.T. Do you think that, inasmuch as sonship is God's thought for us, we should have affections suitable to it?

J.T. Yes, but the first thing is to get into our souls the light of the believer's position now before God. That is the point in Galatians.

F.L. I suppose the one point to get hold of is that it is not a matter of attainment. We are all sons of God.

J.T. That is a great point. It is not a question of the state in which Christians are.

G.A.T. Is the position from our side or God's side?

F.L. It is what is absolutely true. That is, if you have a link with God it is true of you, but this light having entered your soul, there is a great deal built upon it. As to this latter, we are especially defective.

J.T. The apostle, addressing the saints at Galatia, whose state was a poor one, says: "ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:26.

C.DeB. Is it not put in a collective way generally?

J.T. Yes, but each one is a son. "Thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir". Galatians 4:7.

A.N.W. I had thought intelligence was connected with sonship.

J.T. I think it is. When all the sons of God shouted for joy it indicated great intelligence as to what was being accomplished.

F.L. You do not mean that intelligence is the ground, but rather a consequence, of relationship.

A.N.W. I was wondering as to what was said, that while the Scripture says that we are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus, yet is there not a state called for to enable us to speak of ourselves as being such?

J.T. You can speak of yourself as being a son apart from a corresponding state, but as was intimated,

intelligence is the result of that. God takes you into His confidence as a son.

E.H.T. Would "by faith" indicate state?

J.T. Yes, but you might be on the legal line and have faith, as the Galatians. But as sons, God takes us into His confidence. He makes known everything in His heart to His sons. Therefore intelligence in the fullest sense of the word depends on our being in the light of sonship.

W.C.R.. While they were only children, they were not in the light of His counsels.

J.T. Precisely. Whereas when you are in full age you are admitted to the table, and the counsels of the head of the house. They all belong to you. "The period fixed by the father" (Galatians 4:2) has arrived, so that all believers now are sons.

F.L. The time fixed would be the time when the Spirit was sent forth into our hearts whereby we cry, "Abba, Father".

J.T. I think the time fixed involved redemption, and so has reference to the death and resurrection of Christ. "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". Galatians 4:6.

F.L. This is the day when that is true. Till the coming of Christ that was not the day.

W.H.F. You get the position first; that is a question of light.

F.L. I think it is helpful to see that the light of the assembly comes in in Matthew in connection with the Son of God, and the liberty of the house. It helps in connection with what goes before. When Peter came into the house, Matthew 17:25, he was instructed as to sonship.

J.T. We are not to come in as if we were strangers. But there is no liberty for the flesh in God's house. The Spirit of God puts a restriction on the flesh.

There is no place in the assembly for it. The tax upon it there is prohibitive.

W.C.R. Isaac had liberty in the house, but Ishmael is put out.

J.T. Ishmael is the man born after the flesh.

W.C.R. You get in Romans 8:14, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God". How do you fit that in with what we are having here?

J.T. That is a question of character. They are marked off as God's sons because they are led by the Spirit. The great point in Romans 8 is the Spirit, and what He is to the believer; whereas that is not the point in Galatians. In Galatians it is a question of faith. "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:26. Faith in contrast to law. And then: "Because ye are sons, God hath sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba Father". Galatians 4:6. Whereas in Romans, we are known to be sons because led by the Spirit.

R.S.S. So that during the age of law sonship was not known. Now the age of law is passed, and it has given place to the age of sonship.

J.T. That is what I understand by the time, or period, fixed by the Father; and it seems to me it is very important while it is very simple. Directly that light enters the soul of the believer, it is a new day for him; but he cannot answer to the truth of sonship without the Spirit.

R.S.S. The way in which it is presented here in Galatians, it is a question of a person being in their minority, or having reached full age.

F.L. I suppose in the Old Testament the intention of sonship is declared, but the thing itself had not arrived till Christ.

J.T. You get the thought at the beginning, when the foundations of the earth were laid; and what the son is to God is seen typically in Abraham and Isaac.

F.L. And you get affection and service in the Old Testament.

J.T. It is the service of those who are in the intelligence of the mind of the Person whom they are serving.

F.L. So it is, "Let my son go that he may serve me". Exodus 4:23. He must be out of the house of bondage so as to serve.

J.T. I think the apostle is labouring to deliver the Galatians from a false state which they had got into by the legal teaching that had come in.

W.C.R. He says, "Be as I am, for I am as ye are".

J.T. Exactly. He was a son and so were they. All believers are on the same footing in that respect.

J.N.H. A believer has some light. Is that a good definition of faith -- light?

J.T. Of course it may be very limited light, simply that Christ has borne his sins away; but even believing that, God takes account of him as a son. But then, entering into sonship is another matter, and that is where the Spirit comes in.

F.L. I doubt if we can be intelligently here as children unless we are enlightened as to sonship.

J.T. I think not, because children has reference to us as in a world of adversity as under the Father's care and affection; so that sons are all children, that is, as viewed in this world.

F.L. And in that way they are to be representative of their Father; and if they do not know sonship, I doubt if they can set forth the characteristics of God in adversity and opposition.

J.T. John 15 shows that the disciples were friends and no longer servants "The servant knoweth not what his lord doeth; but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you". John 15:15. That shows that they were admitted into all the counsels that

existed between the Father and the Son. Then He goes on in the chapter and speaks of them as in the presence of man, and that, as the world had hated and persecuted Him, it would hate and persecute them. They would be in His place before men. That indicates the position of the children.

R.S.S. What you are saying now throws a good deal of light on that Scripture which used to he rather difficult to understand. "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts". Galatians 4:6. I connected it with what our brother was saying as to Romans 8, in regard to having God's Spirit -- we cry, "Abba, Father". I used to find it difficult to see how a person could be a son and not have the Spirit.

J.T. I think it clear enough here. You would not separate sonship from the Spirit, but I think the thought of sonship precedes the reception of the Spirit. It is a son who receives the Spirit.

F.L. The ultimate end with God is the bringing of many sons to glory, all formed after the image of His Son; so that as soon as the work of God is in evidence, the ground of sonship is taken. In the future, sonship will be manifested.

J.T. So it is in the sons that God has all His pleasure. Sonship is that state in which humanity is taken up by God and therefore it is that God has man in permanency. There is no end to it. Christians should not be restful short of sonship. It is the happy liberty accorded to us in the assembly. One thought of children is that they are the subjects of parental affection. A child needs care. So that God has taken up the place of a Father, and has given us the place of His children, and the thought in it is that we are under His care; and we are, as our brother was saying, to bear His character in the presence of the world.

F.L. That comes out in the Lord's sermon on the

mount and in Philippians. Those who are formed under the care of God as children are to show forth the character of God. "In the midst of a crooked and perverse generation among whom ye shine as lights in the world", Philippians 2:15.

J.T. So John says, "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed on us that we should be called the children of God"; then he adds, "therefore the world knoweth us not because it knew him not". 1 John 3:1.

F.L. And so in the sermon on the mount "that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven". Matthew 5:16.

J.T. It is the same thought; and I would suggest that the book of Deuteronomy is essential to a proper understanding of the thought of sonship and children. It treats of the relationship in which God stands to His people. So we read, "Ye are the children of the Lord your God ... thou art a holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself" Deuteronomy 14:1 - 2. Later on it says, "Yea, he loved the people". The relationship in which God stands to us, and we to Him, is a side of truth of the very greatest importance. Deuteronomy enlarges on the land as that sphere which God had destined for them. They were to bear the character of God there.

W.C.H. You touched on verse 6: "because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". I think you said that sonship existed before they received the Spirit.

J.T. I think it does. You must be a believer before you receive the Spirit, and as a believer the truth of sonship applies to you. Every person that believes in Christ is a son in God's account. There is no lower relationship now for God's people, because

the time of majority has arrived. There is no other relationship now at all, but that of sons. Therefore, the believer in Christ is a son and it is in that connection God gives him the Spirit of His Son. Of course the Spirit may be taken account of in other ways, as the seal.

Rem. It is not that there is a protracted period between believing and receiving the Spirit.

J.T. Not necessarily.

W.L.P. You must be a son before you receive the Spirit.

J.T. Manifestly so. He gives the Spirit of His Son "because ye are sons".

Ques. What is the outcome of sonship?

J.T. That is a very good question. God delights in man. He had set His affection on him, but He did not receive any return from man as in Adam; but we are taken up in Christ now as sons. As sons we refer, in our affections, to God. We cry, "Abba, Father". There is no utterance in a sense that can give God greater pleasure than "Abba, Father". You do not say that only because you have light, but because you have the Spirit. The cry, "Abba, Father", goes up from the heart that has the Spirit.

J.N.H. If we have the Spirit, we shall have affection more or less.

J.T. The Spirit answers to God in the capacity in which He has taken up His place in our hearts. He is the Spirit of God's Son. In regard to what we are speaking of now He comes into us as the Spirit of God's Son.

J.N.H. You were speaking of affection: having received the Spirit, would you have affection?

J.T. We have the same kind of affection that Christ had because we have His Spirit. The affection that God found in Christ is reproduced in believers, because they have received the Spirit of God's Son.

Rem. But then Christ did the will of God.

J.T. Yes; you, as knowing sonship, begin to think of God, and what He has before Him, and you are sympathetic with Him. Just as I was saying, "the sons of God shouted for joy". Job 38:7.

W.C.R. Would Luke 15 help us? The father's delight in the one who desired to do his will, and his disapproval of the other one.

J.T. The prodigal, as restored, may be taken as a figure of sonship. The father had his son recovered to him in permanency. That son would not wander again.

F.L. As taken into the house the prodigal comes out again, and he comes out with an affectionate knowledge of God, and so represents God worthily; and as here under the eye of God, and for His pleasure, God is known in those who are in the place of sonship; such are sustained as His children.

J.T. Whereas the elder brother proved that he never had the spirit of a son, because he had no sympathy with his father at all.

F.L. It is what we learn inside the house in which we come out characteristically.

R.S.S. The elder son was very distinctly under the age of law. "Neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment". Luke 15:29.

J.T. And, moreover, he had no sympathy at all with his father.

R.S.S. I think it is very helpful to notice that what we are speaking of is not exactly an arbitrary thing in the mind of God. God has found such delight in His Son revealed in manhood, that nothing else will suit Him than a generation like that; and so, no matter what will content us, nothing less will content God than sons.

J.T. Therefore when a brother comes in and sits by the door, what is there in that for God? God loves His people to come up and take their place as in happy relation with Him. For we must bear in

mind that no man rules in the assembly; it is God's house, and as a son I have as much liberty as anybody else. God has no pleasure in mock modesty. It is not sonship.

E.H.T. Would you say that sonship is just one step higher than children?

J.T. No, there is nothing higher than children as far as the thought goes, but the idea of children is that we are in a world of adversity, where we need care. The thought will be dropped in eternity, because we shall not need parental interest and care there; we do here, and therefore God takes that wonderful attitude towards us: "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us that we should be called the children of God". 1 John 3:1. That is what we are as having to do with the world, but in the assembly we are sons.

G.A.T. As children, have we responsibility?

J.T. I think you have distinct responsibility. You must not discredit your Father.

F.L. The actual goodness of God is to be read in His children. Matthew 5 brings that out. Children have to learn His character, and so be expressive of the actual goodness of God in this scene towards man. That is showing forth your light in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation.

J.T. So that God's children would act now in a magnanimous way towards all men. God is good to man aside from Christianity. He is the Creator of man, and as an illustration of His goodness, we may refer to the fact that He has opened up this great continent of America. It is God's mercy to man and we are His children and so we should be like Him in it.

F.L. So the simple facts are brought in by the Lord. Rain and sunshine show the attitude of God, and if you are in the intelligence of what it is to be

of His children, you will act towards men in the same way, and God will be praised in you.

J.T. "Sons (children) of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation among whom ye shine as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life". Philippians 2:15,16.

Ques. You might refer to 1 John 2in what way does the apostle differentiate the children?

J.T. Chapter 3 refers to all Christians. All are alike in the presence of the world. They are all children of God. It has reference to the position of believers in the presence of the world that the Father has bestowed such love on them that they are His children. Whereas in chapter 2 you get the relative growth of Christians referred to. It has no reference to what we are in the presence of the world but what we are in God's family. Just as in any man's family there are different grades.

F.L. Our translators, in many instances, give a mistranslation. In Philippians it is sons where it should be children, and in 1 John 3 we have sons instead of children. So that the truth is really obscured by the mistakes in translation.

J.N.H. Do you not think it is strange that they have just inverted the terms?

J.T. It is strange, because in ordinary conversation a man distinguishes between his son and his children. Strictly speaking,son refers to a person on an equality with his parent as to intelligence.

E.H.T. Would you indicate what would be the characteristic of the sons?

J.T. I would judge by their behaviour among the saints. That is, as our brother was saying, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God". Romans 8:14. When we speak of sonship as a matter of light, it is the ground you take before God; but when you begin to move you discover yourself. If your movements are not by the Spirit you are not

marked off as God's sons. God's sons have a dignified bearing about them. What they do is marked by intelligence and grace.

Ques. When you speak of the assembly, do you refer to the morning meeting, or our attitude towards the saints?

J.T. It would be the general way you act towards God's people. But when you come into the assembly as convened you feel you are on new ground. I take the assembly as convened to be distinct ground from the wilderness. It is different ground entirely, and I think that sons are the only ones qualified to have a place there.

G.A.T. Is that true of a meeting like this?

J.T. In principle it is. So that speaking in a general way, intelligence and affection give character to God's sons.

Rem.. There might be some sons more intelligent than others.

J.T. That might be so, but still if we are subject and simple our part would be always according to our measure, so that it would be always the part of sons.

Ques. Would you say intelligence would come through affection?

J.T. In divine things intelligence and affection are intimately connected, still they have to be taken account of separately.

Ques. Would not true intelligence increase your affection?

J.T. God puts His laws in your heart and writes them in your mind.

F.L. In Hebrews 8 it is put one way and in chapter 10 in the other.

J.T. There can be no doubt that the affections and the mind are to be correlative.

G.A.T. Is not the work of the Spirit of God first applied to a man's affections?

J.T. It is difficult to say. The Spirit works on

the man, and so mind and affections are affected together. When a man is born again he needs light. He believes the gospel before he receives the Spirit, but all affection Godward is by the Spirit in the Christian.

F.L. We want to see how very closely these things are connected. "God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness hath shined in our hearts". 2 Corinthians 4:6. The light does come first, but the place where the light is placed is in the heart.

J.T. Yes. Saul had to be enlightened individually as to his state. Light from the face of Christ shone into his heart.

F.L. Light always comes first, but it is so closely related to affection that you will always find it alongside.

Rem. The light broke in on Peter when he said "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, O Lord". Luke 5:8.

Ques. Do you make any difference between the house and the assembly?

J.T. The idea of an assembly is easily taken in. The assembly consists of a company of intelligent persons. They have something before them. The Jews and Greeks were accustomed to it. It was the place where questions were settled. Now the point is, that Christ has an assembly. The point in 1 Corinthians was that God had an assembly, "the assembly of God". It was not man's, but God's. But when you come to a house, I think we can readily distinguish that the thought is not that. The thought in a house is more one of affection.

Rem. Christ is Son over God's house.

J.T. The assembly is a place where things are decided and where divine intelligence is.

G.A.T. In the assembly He leads: "In the midst of the assembly;" Hebrews 2:12.

J.T. But the thought of a house is different

from that. There are certain things that are to regulate God's assembly, and there are certain rules to regulate God's house; but the two things are distinct. You get in 1 Timothy 3:15: "that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the assembly of the living God".

Rem. That is the link.

J.T. The house is one thought and the assembly is another. Suppose you have children and there is to be a family council, you would call those together who were intelligent. The father would take the place of head in all the deliberations, but if it is a question of the parent he rules all. He does not deal with the grown-up children in that way. He influences them; he is in precedence, but not as a lord.

W.C.R. So judgment begins at the house of God.

J.T. The Lord is Head to the assembly. In the United States the President is not king. He is there as one of the people. The idea of a king is not that he is one of the people, but above them as of another order, and his will is absolute. Now as head of his house a father is absolute whereas a chairman of a committee, or president of an assembly, is on the same footing as the others, but he is acting in a different capacity from them.

W.C.R. It is a question of wisdom.

J.T. It is necessary that one should be there to guide, and the Lord takes that place in the assembly.

F.L. But the idea of precedence is always maintained in connection with Christ and the assembly.

J.T. And yet He is pleased to call all members of the assembly His brethren.

F.L. And it is the assembly of the firstborn ones.

J.T. Yes.

W.L.P. You said that what the Lord's people need is light to make them free. Light is a large

thought and it comes to people by degrees, does it not?

J.T. It refers to man in every state in which he may be found. If a man requires to know about righteousness, he sees it in the death of Christ. If a man is in bondage he wants to he enlightened in regard to sonship, and I think that is as much needed as anything at the present time.

F.L. It is really Ephesians that brings out the full light of sonship, and looks forward to the time when we all come into that.

J.T. Whereas in Galatians we get the elementary principles of sonship, and therefore it presents what is more needful to Christians at the present time.

E.H.T. I am not at all clear as to the thoughts that have been spoken of as to the assembly and the house.

J.T. I think if you take into account the relative meaning of each word that you cannot fail to distinguish between them, and if you take account of the way in which each word is used in Scripture, you will find that a different set of thoughts is connected with each.

F.L. I think perhaps it helps to see that as pertaining to the same company of people there are many different thoughts. John brings before us "one flock"; Peter the "living stones"; then you get the body, and the assembly, and the house of God, but in all these things we are considering the same material, but in different aspects.

E.H.T. My thought was to try to distinguish between the assembly and the house.

Ques. When you think of the house, do you think of the dwelling place of God?

J.T. Quite so. And then it is a wonderful thing to be a member of that assembly, presided over by the Son of God.

G.A.T. The simplest believer belongs to that assembly.

J.T. That is the reason why light is so essential at the present time.

R.S.S. Would you say when we come together in assembly it is a question of hearing what the Lord has to say?

J.T. It is a question, first of all, of the presidency of Christ.

G.A.T. I thought it was more what we have for Him, as in John 12.

J.T. I think the assembly is that wherein Christ moves and directs. I do not know much about parliamentary rules, but I think the speaker opens the session and there is an indication of what is to be proceeded with. That shows the importance of giving Christ His place. He is Head.

G.H. When you speak of the service of the assembly, is it Godward or manward?

J.T. It all depends on what is going to be proceeded with.

E.L. Are there not two broad aspects of the assembly; one in connection with the revelation given to Paul, and the other the side of administration as it comes out in Matthew? In Matthew it is a question of the administration of things here on earth; in Paul's writings it is the mystery more from the aspect of the body of Christ.

J.T. Undoubtedly, and therefore Paul gives us what it will be in full display.

F.L. And it brings in in Paul's writings a character of things we do not find in Matthew at all.

J.T. It is a wonderful thought that that Man who was here in reproach and despised, should have an assembly of intelligent persons, and that He should take a place of pre-eminence amongst them. Therefore, in the assembly in its proper character it is a question of what He is going to do. If it is a question

of the breaking of bread, He does not do that. We do that. But when the Lord has got us on His line, then He moves; and you want to wait for His movement, too.

W.H.F. In the house of God, Christ is pre-eminent as Son, and in the assembly He is the Head, and as such He gives impulse.

J.T. Yes. Therefore you want to know what He is going to do. No doubt in political circles they arrange it beforehand. The speaker is more or less the appeal; whereas Christ is not that. He has infinite intelligence and therefore things have to proceed from Him.

W.H.F. Therefore He is to be waited on for guidance.

E.H.T. Do I get indication in the assembly as to my behaviour?

J.T. Yes. We learn from certain Scriptures what part the Lord takes in the assembly. He leads the praises; that is one thing. Then there are decisions to be rendered, and conclusions arrived at, and all these things are to be settled by the assembly.

W.C.R. Do you think we give sufficient deference to the Lord's presence?

J.T. I think not. His presence and authority have to be recognised. A primary thought in connection with the assembly was that the Lord's commandments were to be adhered to. "Tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high". Luke 24:49. He puts on them the test of obedience at the outset. Had they not tarried they would have shown themselves utterly unsuitable to administer in the kingdom. Saul could not tarry more than seven days, and he lost his kingdom. He waited for Samuel, and when Samuel tarried he forced himself arid offered a burnt offering. Samuel said, "Thou hast done foolishly". 1 Samuel 13:13. I take it that the assembly is founded on the principle of obedience.

If we cannot wait for God we are disqualified. Even though He may put us to the test and we may wonder why He tarries, yet faith absolutely declines to do anything without God.

R.S.S. In the breaking of bread are we on any different ground from what we are in that which follows in the meeting?

J.T. We are on different ground in this respect, that what is done in that part of the meeting, we do, We are enjoined, we may say, to do it. The Lord is known in the breaking of bread, and when He enters we must wait on Him for direction. Then the assembly is, so to speak, in function.

R.S.S. Are we in the wilderness in the breaking of bread?

J.T. I think so.

R.S.S. In the latter part of the meeting are we in the wilderness?

J.T. No. I think when Christ comes in, the ground is changed.

R.S.S. When would you say the Lord comes in?

J.T. I think it is at the breaking of bread. I think there is a movement of the saints. I do not know whether we have observed it. When the Lord comes in there is a stir in the affections of the saints.

W.C.R. Would that be seen in connection with the disciples whom He overtook on the way to Emmaus: He was known to them in the breaking of bread?

J.T. That simple act in the breaking of bread is the suggestion to our hearts of Christ.

G.A.T. Would you say the Lord takes His place in the meeting before the breaking of bread?

J.T. Not exactly, although He always helps us.

Ques. Is He there in the breaking of bread?

J.T. He is always with us in a sense, but we should accustom ourselves to the thought of the

assembly viewed as risen with Christ, over this Christ presides as Head. His presence hushes every voice, and we wait now on His pleasure.

Rem. Christ gave the supper.

J.T. But He expressed what they were to do while He was away. "This do for a remembrance of me". Luke 22:19. Therefore, in the Lord being present it is no question of remembrance; this is because He is not present. It is "till he come" 1 Corinthians 11:26.

A.H. You get an illustration of it in John 20. He was present there.

J.T. He is present with us individually, and when gathered together, and you would not think of doing anything without His support. But that is another matter. When He takes His place as Head of the assembly we are on other ground, and if you are not on the alert you do not get any guidance. That is where state counts, state formed by the Spirit. When the Lord takes His place as the Head of the assembly, if we are not in trim, we miss the great blessedness of it.

R.S.S. Would not that be brought out in Luke? It was when He broke bread that they recognised Him. It was there a question of simple intelligence. In the last chapter of John, Peter did not recognise Him, but John did. John said, "It is the Lord", (John 21:7) and then Peter casts himself into the sea.

J.T. You can understand that Peter was not in accord with the moment. He had said "I go a fishing". John 21:3. If a man has the interests of this world at heart he is not likely to recognise the Lord in resurrection. State formed by the Spirit is what counts when it becomes a question of Christ's assembly. We need to become accustomed to His voice.

R.S.S. So that in the breaking of bread the only one who is qualified to break the bread is the one who can suggest Christ to you.

J.T. That is very important because the breaking of bread should not be dissociated from the Spirit. It is only by the Spirit that you can suggest Christ. One would not draw lines as to those who should break the bread, but the need of some appreciation of Christ and how He did it should be recognised.

G.A.T. Do you attach more value to the actual breaking of the bread than to the giving of thanks?

J.T. Of course the Lord gave thanks and so do we. He was made known to them in the breaking of bread.

R.S.S. Was it because they had been accustomed to hear Him give thanks and address God that when He blessed and broke the bread on that occasion they recognised Him?

J.T. Yes. They recognised the way He did it.

F.L. Their eyes were holden, and then they were opened when those particular acts were performed.

J.T. And when that took place there was a movement; they went back to Jerusalem. I have no doubt there is often that which is analogous in ourselves. When Christ is seen amongst us there is a stir in the affections of the saints.

G.A.T. I can see now why the last part of the meeting is always spoken of as the best, because then the Lord is made known in the midst.

J.T. There we prove the reality of being quickened with Christ. Many who partake of the supper enjoy it in measure, and that is the end of it; whereas if you are exercised you wait for the sequel.

A.A.T. Is it there that, as saints, we appreciate the Lord?

J.T. It is there that saints who are formed by the Spirit come more into prominence. As apprehending Christ in this way, we are pretty certain to get some new thought of Him at that moment. The Lord always suggests something new to you.

J.N.H. Then there is something on our side. It

has been said that, rightly carried out, there would be something going up to God; the wealthy man having brought a bullock. Now you are saying that after the breaking of bread we wait for the Lord to indicate His mind.

J.T. I think that if Christ comes in He is to be pre-eminent, and He gives character to things. It is a question of what He does, not what we do.

Ques. Does the Lord get anything in the breaking of bread?

J.T. He takes account of our affection.

Rem. It is a moment that brings the Lord and His people very closely together. There are the outgoings of the affections of His people to Him.

J.N.H. You spoke of the Lord directing. Take the morning meeting after the breaking of bread, He takes His place there, in leading the praise.

J.T. It is an occasion for each to be on the alert to see what is going to happen; and the Lord would use someone to strike the right note, and you will be waiting for that and not striking a counter note.

R.S.S. And I suppose if one has a large appreciation of Christ and of God, it would be expressed in the one that the Lord thus led to take part, and in that way would answer to what our brother was saying as to the bullock.

J.T. Therefore what would take place would not be beyond the state of the meeting. The Lord is very gracious; He can get down to our level. What He would do in any given company would be according to the state of that company.

A.A.T. Did I understand you to say that if some brother was in advance of the others, spiritually, it would be wrong for him to go beyond them?

J.T. No. I think the Lord will always lead according, so to speak, to the greatest state in the meeting. He will always lead upwards. The Lord is considerate, but He would like to lead us on and

would take account of the highest state in the meeting.

F.L. Summing it all up, I suppose after an interesting discussion like this we need to avoid going to the Lord's supper with any set of rules, making ourselves miserable if our state of order is not observed. We must allow for liberty in that respect, and a certain adaptability in our souls or else we shall bring ourselves into bondage.

J.T. I think one great object in teaching is that the saints should be brought to apprehend the truth of the assembly. It is a wonderful thing that we are called to it, and we ought to seek to be equal to the light vouchsafed as to it.

W.L.P. What would you say in regard to any address that might be given after the breaking of bread? Should there not be a peculiar character to that?

J.T. Yes. It is not lecturing exactly. I think we are on different ground. A word of ministry in the assembly ought to be in the grace of the Head. You are not a Levite there; you would act more in the dignity of a priest.

R.S.S. I think I heard Mr. Raven say, on one occasion, in that connection, that he would only be free to take part in the morning meeting, as having the sense that the Lord had a word for His people.

J.T. And that word is gathered for the moment. You do not come with it. That would be out of keeping in the assembly. Now I would not come to give an address to God's people without something, but if it is a question of the assembly Christ must give something, and you are acting in concert with Him.

G.A.T. If you knew the condition of the saints would you think it wrong to look at a few Scriptures before you came?

J.T. The Lord knows the state of the meeting

better than anyone, and if we give Him His place we shall get what is needed.

Ques. Would that scripture, "he is not ashamed to call us brethren" (Hebrews 2:11) have special reference to us in the assembly?

J.T. It comes out in the assembly. He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions.

R.S.S. I think what you said is very suggestive in regard to each time we come together on the Lord's day morning that we should be prepared for a fresh impression of Christ. Christ presenting Himself to us in some fresh aspect, what we have not seen before.

J.T. And then that is the beginning of the week for you. So that all the meetings that follow should take character from the first day. We start out with Christ afresh on every first day of the week. The Spirit is always in the assembly, but there is a distinct thing and that is that the Lord comes into the company personally. It may be trifled with, but it is true. The Lord appears to His own, and that is to give character to us during the week.

W.C.R. You mean the meetings of the week are to take character from that?

J.T. I think so. The Lord gives an indication that day of what should characterise the week. If you are with the Lord and have caught a fresh thought of Him it is wonderful how that appears in the next meeting. No matter what you are reading what is in your heart comes out. After all, our readings are not exactly to find out what this or that scripture means, but to speak of the things of Christ.

Ques. Could you explain any difference between being Christ's brethren and sons?

J.T. They are the same people but sons are sons of God. It is our relationship to God. Whereas as

His brethren it is a question of our relationship to Him. He is pleased to call us brethren.

F.L. We get both in Romans 8; the thought of sonship and brethren in connection with divine purpose.

J.T. Quite so. "That he might be the firstborn among many brethren". Romans 8:29.

Ques. In coming together, do you remember Him in His death or in His life?

J.T. You remember the Person who is absent, "This do for a remembrance of me". Luke 22:19. That One is not here, so that you call Him to mind by that act.

THE ORDER MARKING THE CHURCH AT THE OUTSET

Acts 2

J.T. The chapter is suggested in connection with the second epistle to Timothy, which the brethren had on their minds. It may seem singular that we should read a chapter that presents to us the formation of the church originally, whilst what is in the mind of the brethren is a day of ruin, and what should govern us in a day of ruin. But in order to be for God in a day of ruin we have to see the order which marked the church as established at the outset.

A.H. I suppose your idea is to show what was God's thought in the beginning; and when we get to God's principles it shows us how to act in a day of ruin. It has been said often that it is a great thing to trace things to their source.

J.T. A remark in the last chapter of the Old Testament is, I think, helpful in this connection, as it was uttered in a day of small things. The people are called upon to remember the law of Moses which was, with the statutes and judgments, commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel I think it is very suggestive that it should be there; such a reminder in the last chapter of the Old Testament.

F.L. Do you not think that that line of things comes out very much in the Old Testament? I was thinking with regard to the remnant in Ezra, they could not have rebuilt the house if they had not known what Solomon's house was. They must have had the divine thought of what it was. And, too, in Nehemiah when they kept the feast of tabernacles there was no such feast since the days of Joshua. It is rather on the line of what you were indicating.

J.T. Quite so. The passage in Malachi is, "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which

I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments". Malachi 4:4. I think it is very suggestive that it appears there. It might be said the conditions to which the law applied had passed away. Yet the saints are called upon to remember it.

J.N.H. Does that mean the law given at Sinai?

J.T. That is what is said. It is not a specific law given for remnant days, but the law given for all Israel.

G.A.T. The church having become broken up has not changed the thoughts of God.

J.T. If there is any building now it is in relation to the original structure as indicated in this chapter.

A.A.T. What are the points that we, in this day, should practically remember took place in that day?

J.T. I think one great point in connection with the formation of the church was that the saints were to adhere sedulously to the commandments of Christ. In chapter 1 He commanded them to tarry at Jerusalem until they were endued with power from on high. That is to say, they were placed under obligations by His commandments. Following on the stress the Lord laid on His commandments in the gospel of John, I think it is important to note that the church was formed in that connection. It was really formed by those who knew how to keep Christ's commandments, and undoubtedly that is the thought of God in the church -- the assembly. It was to be regulated by Christ's commandments.

W.H.F. And the material was suitable and prepared by the Lord Himself when He was there.

J.T. I think its suitability is shown in chapter 1. That is, they abode by His commandments and acting on a specific commandment in relation to the selection of an apostle, they recognised what had already been written. There is no need for repetition in the things of God. They recognised what had been

written in regard to the selection of an apostle. That was an acknowledgment of the authority of Scripture.

A.H. And that apart from the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Apart from what the New Testament discloses. It brings out the authority of the Old Testament Scriptures in the church. I think it shows the place that the Old Testament should have amongst us. But the great governing principle in the church is the commandments of Christ. Therefore the epistle to the Corinthians is of such value to us, because it is specially said there, "If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:37.

G.A.T. What are they?

J.T. The epistle to the Corinthians might be taken as setting forth the commandments of the Lord in regard to the order of the church.

J.N.H. It is said so in chapter 14.

W.H.F. You were saying that in Acts 2 you get the positive thing, the foundation, and that it is well for us to be thoroughly grounded in that, in order to carry out what we get in 2 Timothy.

J.T. And indeed the principles are the same, because you have to obey. Whatever the conditions may be in which you may be found, the obligation to obey exists.

W.H.F. You would say, that after the church is formed by the Spirit, then the Spirit is the operating power; whereas now in the condition of things in which we find ourselves it is more the Lord's authority. There was the liberty of the Spirit unhindered in the assembly then.

J.T. And where the Lord's authority is not recognised you cannot have that. The authority of Christ and the activity of the Spirit go together. Therefore in 2 Timothy 2 the point is the authority of

Christ. "Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from iniquity". 2 Timothy 2:19. It is as we recognise that which is due to Christ that we come again to the activity of the Spirit.

A.N.W. The case of Ananias would seem to bear out what you say. They lied against the Holy Spirit.

W.H.F. The authority of Christ and the activity of the Spirit go together. You cannot have the latter without the former.

J.T. I think the place of the Holy Spirit in the earlier chapters was a great point of testimony, that He had come into the midst of Israel. That is, they had put Christ to death and now the Spirit comes in; so that all that happens is viewed as bearing upon the Spirit. Therefore Stephen's address sums up the whole history. They had always resisted the Holy Spirit, and now they were resisting Him, so that it was sin against the Holy Spirit.

J.N.H. What is the significance of that in the statement where it says, "thou hast not lied unto men but unto God"? (Acts 5:4)

J.T. I think the enemy was attempting to attack the Spirit at that time, because His presence in Israel involved the great testimony of God for the moment. The enemy was endeavouring to make out that the Spirit was not there. If the sin of Ananias had been successful he would have so far succeeded, but the power of the Spirit was too manifest.

W.H.F. That was one of the conditions indicated through Haggai -- "my spirit remaineth among you, fear ye not". Haggai 2:5.

G.A.T. Is Acts 2 the foundation of the church laid by God?

J.T. I think so; of what I might call the historic church. It is the church that appears in the book of Revelation. For the moment it was the vessel of the administration of God's bounty in the midst of Israel.

The first six chapters of the Acts present the church in relation to Israel; the activity of the Spirit in the church as showing God's long-suffering to Israel.

Ques. Does "Repent and be baptised ... for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) show it is different from what we have today?

J.T. The great force of baptism is just in that connection. God was delivering from that system, and baptism was the outward confession on the part of the one baptised that he was withdrawing from it. But, nevertheless, God was, in patience, bearing witness to Israel in the church by the activities of the Spirit.

F.L. And that is the connection of the reference to the prophet Joel.

J.T. I think so; that the prophecy of Joel was actually fulfilled in their midst.

F.L. The fulness waits for a coming day, but so far as God was concerned there was a fulfilment of what was promised in Joel.

J.T. So the testimony of Peter's sermon in chapter 3. In chapter 2 Peter says that Christ is ascended to heaven and the result is good for Israel; "he hath shed forth this which ye now see and hear". Acts 2:33. That is for Israel. "The promise is unto you and to your children". Acts 2:39. So the exaltation of Christ at the right hand of God was good for Israel. Then in chapter 3 Peter tells the people further, that Christ is waiting in the heavens till they repent, to come back to them. Chapter 4 shows us the result as to the leaders; that all is hopeless. That wonderful overture of God is rejected; the leaders are banded together against the testimony. In chapter 7 Stephen charges the elders that they had always resisted the Spirit; as their fathers did, so did they. Then you get the world-wide testimony through Paul, and the church in its present form.

R.S.S. I suppose the latter is indicated in the

statement of Peter: "the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". Acts 2:39.

J.T. Yes. That passage shows God's order in regard to things on earth: the Jew first, and then the Gentile. But the present moment is not marked by the Jew first. The fact is, it is not the Jew at all now. Things have changed. God has definitely turned away from the Jew. "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles". Acts 28:28. The testimony is to the Gentiles now.

F.L. It is very interesting to see that when the Lord came He took things up in connection with the promises and the testimony of the prophets, and when He is exalted and the Holy Spirit has come, the same line is pursued, as the early chapters in Acts show, after the death of Stephen there is a change. The fulness of the blessing flowing out from the One who is exalted comes out in connection with the Gentiles.

J.T. It is the Jew first all through the Acts; that is, God patiently follows the Jew into every part of the empire with the testimony. I think this brings out His long-suffering, which is a very affecting thing.

F.L. In going through the Acts we find that in all the places the apostles visit they preserve that order till Paul reaches Rome. God had gone to the full length, and here the testimony of the apostle is rejected.

J.T. And then, the significant thing is that Isaiah 6 is quoted. It had been quoted in John 12. In both chapters God is dealing judicially with the people of Israel as having rejected the testimony; in the former, the testimony of the Lord, and in the latter that of the Spirit. God patiently visited the different colonies of the Jews and invariably His testimony was rejected by them. In Rome they reasoned in regard to it, and the apostle quotes

Isaiah 6 and says, "The salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles and they will hear it". Acts 28:28. So today it is not the gospel to the Jew first nor, in a sense, to the Jew and Gentile strictly, it is to the Gentiles only. The Jews, as Jews, are under wrath, although as men every blessing in Christ is available to them.

W.C.R. Although the church is in ruins, and so, according to 2 Timothy, the testimony is entrusted to faithful men, yet church order is not given up

J.T. No. I think, as we were saying, when 2 Timothy days arrived, and separation took place, evidently those who, in faithfulness to Christ, withdrew from iniquity, would fall back on the commandments of the Lord, which were given, as it were, "in Horeb for all Israel". Malachi 4:4. You do not let any of them go. You seek to walk in the light of them all; and I think that is what is so important now, inasmuch as the commandments of Christ have been violated. We have to fall back on what He commanded for the whole church, and see to it that nothing is violated; because you will not have the activities of the Spirit if the commandments of Christ are not adhered to; and I do not think any Christian can do without the Spirit.

Rem. You do not say corporate testimony is in the church now.

J.T. The question is whether there is any church testimony now; the candlestick is removed. Any Christian with light rejoices in the order of God's house, and seeks to walk in the light given as regards it; but he has to admit that the corporate body which once had the light of the testimony has become a dark body. If you were to stand outside and view it, you would not view one ray of light, whereas at the outset it was the reflection of Christ.

R.S.S. When was the candlestick removed?

J.T. I think it was lost in Thyatira. It was threatened in Ephesus, but where apostasy is definitely

admitted you could not think the Lord would regard it as any longer His testimony. In Thyatira apostasy is admitted as a ruling principle; the elements were there in Pergamos, but the influence of that had not yet prevailed. In Thyatira it prevailed, so that a remnant is recognised for the first time; and when the remnant is recognised by Christ, the corporate body is given up morally.

B. Would you make clear what the testimony is?

J.T. It has often been alluded to. It is a very large thought, because it takes in all that God is in His nature and all that He would effect in His counsels. We have in 2 Timothy 1:8, the testimony of our Lord. His authority is in question.

B. But you do not say it applies especially to the lordship of Christ.

J.T. I think that is the beginning of it. Peter's address in this chapter so far as it goes indicates what was in God's mind. That is, that Christ should be exalted, and the result is blessing here upon earth for men. But then there is a good deal that came out subsequently to that; that is, the truth of the assembly, the mystery.

B. It all comes in in relation to the lordship of Christ.

J.T. I think everything centres around Christ's present position of exaltation.

W.H.F. The subject of the testimony would be Christ.

J.T. Yes. He is the great subject of all testimony on the part of God; and the cloven tongues here have allusion to the fact that God would spread the testimony. The testimony would be announced to every creature. God would speak of that Man.

F.L. I suppose the testimony has one definite line running all through it, but it assumes different aspects according to the day in which it is spoken of. The testimony continues from Abel down, and,

at you say, always had Christ in view in one aspect or another.

J.T. Yes. God had His testimony in view from the outset, and so spoke of it.

F.L. So you can see the importance of being on the line of the Spirit.

J.T. God was speaking all along from the outset. So the tongues here. "God who at sundry times ... hath in these last days spoken to us by his Son". Hebrews 1:1,2. The Son is the last, and now the only Speaker. The tongues here are really Christ's; they are under His control. Christ is speaking to men, and the speaking is universal. Therefore you get a universal language. Christ speaks to all, so that you get a perfect testimony now because of the presence of the Spirit here. The Lord has all tongues under His control, and they are to announce what is in heaven. The Spirit is the mode of expression. He came upon the disciples in the character of cloven tongues, showing that there was to be speaking.

G.A.T. If you speak it should be by the Spirit.

J.T. But really Christ is the Speaker. Of course the Spirit also speaks: "Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, To-day if ye will hear his voice". Hebrews 3:7. He speaks continuously in the house of God.

R.S.S. The Lord seems to make a distinction in the addresses to the seven churches. "To the rest I say", and then, "he that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith". Revelation 2:24,29.

J.T. I am sure He does. What Christ says is a question of His authority. That is represented in what He says; whereas what the Spirit says refers to what is subjective and continues here amongst us. But primarily the great thought to impress on the assembly was the authority of Christ. Divine Persons are distinguished, and the Spirit speaks as a divine Person, but He speaks in a subjective way; that is, as dwelling in the church.

R.S.S. What He says has regard to the authority of the Lord.

J.T. What Christ says is in the way of authority; He speaks in the dignity of a Judge. It is not communications from the Father. In the addresses to the seven churches the Lord's authority is impressed upon us; but there is also the continued speaking of the Spirit, which we are to hear.

R.S.S. We are not told what the Spirit said in that day. That comes out now.

G.A.T. I suppose walking in the Spirit we shall be the testimony.

J.T. I was saying that it is very doubtful that we can speak of testimony in the way in which it was spoken of primarily, though God always gave a light in Jerusalem. God always has a light here, but if you were to stand outside the great professing body you would not see that light. I think that the heathen cannot see any light. We have to come in amongst Christians to find a flickering flame. You could not see it outside. At the beginning you could not fail to see it.

F.L. I suppose that at the beginning, the testimony was in connection with Israel, although in the church: that is, up to the seventh chapter then the testimony was in the church as the body -- Paul's testimony.

J.T. Yes, and 1 Timothy shows the form which that testimony took; the saints were to be marked by the character and nature of God; their attitude towards men was to be in accord with God's attitude toward them.

F.L. And now it is "the testimony of our Lord", the character of which is seen in our withdrawing from iniquity and going on with righteousness.

J.T. Yes, and you are waiting the time when it shall be openly disclosed.

A.A.T. It will not be testimony then?

J.T. It will be; only, as when the ark reached its resting place, conflict will be past. The world to come will be testimony. It will be the setting forth of what God is able to do.

J.N.H. Why does it say, "Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of the Lord, nor of me his prisoner"? (2 Timothy 1:8) What is the special way that he might be ashamed of it?

J.T. I think what the apostle Paul was standing for: the truth of the mystery, brought him into reproach, not only among the heathen, but among his brethren. Doubtless, in some cases, because they misunderstood him. A man who is in prison is under reproach, and unless you are walking with the Lord, you will be ashamed of him. So he says of Onesiphorus, being in Rome, he sought me out diligently and found me. The apostle's remark as to this brother has a peculiar touch: he "was not ashamed of my chain". 2 Timothy 1:16. Onesiphorus might have gone back and said he could not find Paul.

J.N.H. How does "the prisoner of the Lord" Ephesians 4:1, apply to us at this time?

J.T. What is under reproach now is the testimony. The prisoner is not here, although there are those who, in measure, are suffering with the testimony. The apostle was so wholly identified with it that he was suffering with it.

J.N.H. "Be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God". 2 Timothy 1:8.

G.A.T. What do you mean by saying the testimony is in reproach now?

J.T. Whatever God is making specially prominent at any given moment is in reproach. Now the reproach is in connection with those who profess to be the Lord's, not among the heathen. Christ when here was under the greatest reproach. He was the Nazarene. In these chapters in Acts it is

in the name of Him who was regarded as the Nazarene that the testimony is announced, and accordingly the apostles suffered reproach on account of His name: chapter 4. They did not suffer it from the people in general, for they were more or less interested, but from the leaders. The priestly family and the elders were pronounced in their hatred to Christ, and therefore the apostles suffered. The world being what it is, such a One as Christ is bound to be under reproach, and when the spirit of the world obtains amongst God's people the same thing appears, so that Paul really suffered from the same element, only it was then amongst professed Christians.

A.N.W. Would you say in the days of our Lord here, when the testimony was maintained in Him personally, that the disciples shared with Him in it?

J.T. I think so. When you become acquainted with Christ you feel He must be in reproach. The natural man does not like Christ.

J.N.H. Eventually they seemed to have been well formed for it, because it says in Acts 5 that they rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for His name.

R.S.S. "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus, shall suffer persecution". 2 Timothy 3:12. I imagine that in Old Testament times there was not much of that. I think the point in 2 Timothy is, "in Christ Jesus".

J.T. Still I suppose wherever faith was, it laid hold of Christ from the outset, and it is Christ that arouses the hostility of the natural man. Now it is remarkable that, while sentence of death was passed upon Adam, the first man that died was one of God's people. Viewed in a physical way, Satan used death first. Satan used death against God in killing Abel, who represented Christ. It was Christ Satan was hostile to. There was a ray of Christ there in Abel.

R.S.S. I suppose that in Old Testament times,

just in so far as Christ was brought in, there was reproach.

J.T. Look at the persecution alluded to in Hebrews 11. It was Christ that incurred all that. Moses suffered "the reproach of Christ". Hebrews 11:26.

W.C.R. And then in Stephen's address: "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers". Acts 7:52.

J.T. Their righteousness and faithfulness incurred the suffering, but it was really Christ that the enemy persecuted.

J.N.H. Abel suffered more than reproach. Paul says, "suffer evil along with the glad tidings according to the power of God", 2 Timothy 1:8.

J.T. Now what is in reproach is not Paul, he is not here, but the testimony.

A.C. Is it not normal that we should suffer? "Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake". Philippians 1:29.

J.T. I think the tabernacle in the wilderness suggests to us that the saints should come into suffering. Certain colours in the covering, such as the scarlet and the purple, indicated that there should be reproach, because reproach now corresponds to glory in the future. A man that lives godly in Christ Jesus suffers persecution. A man might be godly in a certain legal sense, but the apostle speaks of a man godly in Christ Jesus.

B. Would you not say that the godly man is characterised by maintaining, in the face of all opposition, all that has come in from God from the beginning?

R.S.S. Persecution comes in in connection with another Man; that is Christ. If you go on with the first man and his things and recognise him in

any degree there is no persecution. It is when another Man comes in that the opposition is raised.

J.T. Satan cannot tolerate Christ in this world.

F.L. It is very striking how that came out in Mark 10. That young man would listen with a great deal of interest to what the Lord was saying about houses and lands, but then there are the "persecutions" if you identify yourself with Him.

J.T. And it is for His sake and the gospel's.

R.S.S. Was it not the persecution that the Lord Himself endured? It was not in regard to what He was personally, but in regard to the testimony.

J.T. As an illustration of that in Luke 4, in the synagogue, He reads, and He speaks, and it says: "all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words that proceeded out of his mouth". Luke 4:22. There was no persecution there. It was His own city, and I dare say they would be glad of such a One there. It would be an honour to any city to have One like that. But then He says, "I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land but unto none of them was Elias sent, save into Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian". Luke 4:25 - 27. Then it says they "were filled with wrath, and rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong". Luke 4:28,29. When He began to witness for God there was persecution. Still, while that was true, I think the leaders, as animated by Satan, really hated Him personally. "Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father". John 15:24.

A.H. That comes out, too, in the statement, "Away with him": "not this man, but Barabbas".

J.T. The very sight of Him seemed to draw out their hatred.

F.L. "They hated me without a cause". John 15:25.

A.C. It was because of His being here for God that He suffered; as you see in Psalm 69 "the reproaches of them that reproached thee, are fallen upon me".

R.S.S. It says, "Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and man". Luke 2:52. That was as in His boyhood, but when He came to manhood and came out in testimony, it was then the hatred began.

G.A.T. Why is it you do not get that hatred in the last verses of this chapter?

J.T. Because as yet the leaders had not been called into activity. These things were wonderful. It was no small thing that three thousand people should be converted even in a large city like Jerusalem. That was a very great number of people; and the power was evident and could not be denied. It was power for good, and unprejudiced people do not object to this; but when the man in chapter 3 is healed in the name of the Nazarene, the priestly family are set in movement. It means that their day has come. It means, that if God was acting in the name of another than themselves, they were out of commission. They ought to have been the channels of blessing to the people; they sat in Moses' seat. Now it was evident God had passed them.

A.H. Does not that come out in John 9:30 "Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes".

J.T. And then they cast him out of the synagogue. The tabernacle is a foreshadowing of the order of things which God has in His mind, and the tabernacle witnessed to degrees of privilege and blessing. But it was to be one tabernacle. The idea of unity was

to pervade throughout. So that there will be the absence of all rivalry and envy and strife. There will be infinite variety and degrees of privilege and blessing, and yet all will be marked by unity; and I think that every part will be in touch with the others.

W.C.R. If that is to be seen in the world to come and the church is the first item and the present item, ought not unity to be seen in it now?

J.T. That is the thing that is of the greatest importance for the moment. Everything is witnessed to now in the church. The whole scheme finds some answer at the present time livingly in the church, so that it is not only that God speaks as in the prophets, announcing things, but the peculiar feature of this day is that the thing has taken form in life. It is presented livingly; so, in a sense, all may be said to have come in already. Now we have the substance of things.

W.C.R. You see in Acts 2 men's wills are subdued, and then the believers had all things in common. It shows that what they were as natural men had been set aside; so that although we have not the church as presented in the beginning, yet its features ought to be here.

J.T. And I think you have in this chapter the power by which the world is overthrown. The book of Joshua shows the power of God active for the overthrow of the world, and I think the testimony of the apostles has brought that to pass morally. Every feature of the world was overthrown by their testimony. This chapter shows clearly that every principle of the world lost its hold on those who believed. It is in that way a unique chapter: every element of the world was completely effaced in these people. A new order of things, taking character from Christ, had been inaugurated.

G.A.T. They knew what it was to go through the eye of the needle.

J.T. They had gone through the death of Christ in their spirits; the three thousand went through it in accepting baptism. So that what we see here is really a world out of death in principle.

B. What do you think is meant by the foundation of God standing sure? 2 Timothy 2:19.

J.T. God's power. That nothing that God has in mind can fail. That ought to be a settled thing with every believer and then, moreover, in the midst of the confusion the Lord knows accurately every one who is His, and that gives you great rest in regard to your brethren. Although you cannot do much for them the Lord knows them and can help them. There are two sides to the seal. The first side is, "The Lord knoweth them that are his"; the second, "Let every one that nameth the name of the Lord depart from iniquity" 2 Timothy 2:19.

B. So that we need not have fear at any time.

W.H.F. The foundation of God is connected with His eternal counsels.

J.T. I think so, and the believer knows that they stand. No work can stand against or affect that.

R.S.S. Is there any connection with the work of God in the soul in the expression, "the foundation of God"? 2 Timothy 2:19.

J.T. I think "the foundation of God" primarily refers to the sockets of the tabernacle. The foundation of God is laid in righteousness and that cannot be destroyed; that is immutable. It is laid in the death of Christ, and that maintained here in souls is the basis of things. The apostle in writing to Corinth says, "other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ"; (1 Corinthians 3:11) but then evidently it was Jesus Christ as having died and risen. It is Christ as risen who is the foundation in souls. Had He not died you would be unsettled; but He has died and risen, and having Him in the faith of your soul in that character, nothing can shake you.

F.L. I rather regard that statement as a statement of objective truth; and it is followed on by what is subjective, the effect produced in our souls in consequence.

J.T. I think so; only as a matter of fact the foundation of things is in the souls of God's people; that is, Christ is laid there.

R.S.S. And how is that connected with what was spoken of in connection with the purposes of God?

J.T. It is on that immutable foundation everything stands.

R.S.S. And that the purpose of God has been brought to pass in connection with that foundation.

J.T. Yes. You see the tabernacle rested on that, It is the pattern of the whole scheme. It rested in redemption in sockets of silver; silver sets forth redemption. Now that is really in the anti-type Christ risen. Christ is redemption; He is made unto us redemption.

J.N.H. In connection with the power of God, is it right to designate resurrection as the greatest expression of it?

J.T. Yes, certainly; Christ is the wisdom and the power of God.

B. Would you say that in the first place the purpose of God was immutable, and then given effect to in the death of Christ?

J.T. The foundation is laid and laid for ever; nothing can touch it. Men may say and do many things and overthrow the faith of some, but Scripture never contemplates the complete overturning of faith. While faith is here, the foundation is here.

Rem Has the seal any reference to the foreknowledge of God?

J.T. The Lord knows each of His people. You have the assurance that the Lord knows them that are His, and you have great rest of spirit in regard

to your brethren. You may be doubtful as to their identification, but you do not lose your affection for them.

F.L. The question is sometimes asked, Why cannot we have the condition of things today that was found in Acts 2? Because we cannot find the company. We might be glad to do as they did if we could be in that same moral conformity to Christ.

J.T. You do not look for all the things that you find in Acts 2 in order to have those to walk with, or you would have none to walk with. You look now for those walking in righteousness, faith, love and peace. There they went beyond these things, selling their lands, etc.

G.A.T. Would you say we think too much of our possessions now?

J.T. You cannot make the absence of such surrender a test in any way.

F.L. I think that if there was the company that had the characteristics of Acts 2, we would be glad to join in the spirit of what was done at the beginning, but it is impossible to find that now.

G.A.H. Does the unity of Acts 2 exist today?

J.T. Not in the practical and concrete way manifested then, because there are many that are not with us. We miss them for they are not in that unity manifestly; still the unity of the Spirit is maintained.

A.N.W. It is remarkable that they were not severed from the temple in Acts 2.

J.T. God was still witnessing to Israel. The outward breach had not yet come.

G.A.H. But the unity of the Spirit remains and cannot be broken. That is what we should seek to be in.

J.T. You endeavour to keep it.

W.C.R. You do nothing to break it.

J.T. The body remains.

J.N.H. I was struck with what you said in regard to our having the substance. Did you think of Hebrews 11 and that faith is the substance of things hoped for?

J.T. Yes; we have come to the substance. Our faith is in regard to things that have now taken form, whereas they had faith in regard to things that did not exist at all as yet.

G.A.H. Would you state what produces unity?

J.T. I think unity is formed in the main by Christ being brought to your attention; that is, men unite on Christ. The excellency of the work and Person of Christ make Him an object, thus all who are interested in Christ are united. I think that Christ in that way brings unity to pass among men. The Spirit is the subjective power that effects it in us. The saints in Acts 1 were agreed with one accord; it was the fruit of Christ's ministry in them. Now, unity is brought to pass amongst the Gentiles by the Spirit leading us to appreciate Christ.

B. Do you distinguish between the thought of unity and union?

J.T. Union is as between a man and his wife. Adam and Eve represent union, whereas unity contemplates a number of persons, two or more, united in mind and affection. The unity of the Spirit ought to be a concrete thing. It is the unity of affections centred in Christ. The Spirit bringing Christ to our attention, He becomes the Object to us, and we are united in that way, and in that way only. If our unity is based on anything other than that, it is not of God.

R.S.S. David is a good illustration of what you say. It was on him that the twelve tribes united. For seven years he was king over only a part of Israel, and then they all united to make David king.

B. Would you not say unity is the result of union?

J.T. Unity existed before the truth of union was

known. I do not think the Lord would unite with Himself what was not united in itself.

F.L. I think unity is an outcome of the calling. "Called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". 1 Corinthians 1:9. Those who are true to the calling are united.

R.S.S. Unity no doubt preceded union. Union would come in when God has brought something into existence here.

J.T. When the man is formed the thought of union appears there. There could not be union with God.

Rem According to the end of John 17, the world will see unity by and by.

J.T. Quite so. When man appears, then the woman appears, and then you have materials for union; "twain shall be one flesh". Genesis 2:24. That contemplates only two; but unity contemplates any number of people.

L.K.M. Is not unity effected by the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, by having our minds and hearts centred on Christ. The Spirit engages saints with Christ.

Rem But the believer is united to Christ by the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit". 1 Corinthians 6:17.

R.S.S. I think what you see in the religious world is the outcome of not understanding what you are speaking of. The great aim is for union and getting the sections of churches into one. But God's great thought is unity.

A.C. Would you say it comes out where it is said, "and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me", John 12:32.

J.T. Yes. He becomes the gathering centre for all.

B. Unity would be the effect of the power of divine affection in the soul.

J.T. Unity is a very practical thing amongst us.

F.L. And where it exists there is pretty sure to be prosperity.

J.T. Where unity exists there you get the ark of the covenant installed in its place. That is the thing that follows on united Israel. Christ gets His place in our hearts, in a corporate way, in connection with God's counsels: according to Ephesians 3:17; "that Christ may dwell in your hearts". That is corporate.

W.F.H. Blessing follows unity.

J.T. Always. Unity first, then Christ in His place, dwelling there, and then you have blessing. The Spirit is then free.

F.L. And then the final thing: glory to God throughout all ages.

A.H.. As in Psalm 133, there God commanded the blessing.

G.H. What did David do after the ark was restored?

J.T. He distributed blessing to the people, and then the psalm was sung. The thought of unity is a very wonderful one, because the Lord delights in it. At the dedication of the temple, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound in praising and thanking the Lord, the glory entered.

R.S.S. That is a beautiful chain beginning with their uniting to make David king, and then bringing up the ark, and then the administration of blessing, and the glory.

Rem Do not the heavenly bodies in relation to the sun suggest the thought of what we are considering?

J.T. They set forth more righteousness.

Rem. I was thinking of the attractive power which is manifested by the sun in keeping and holding them.

J.T. Each retains his appointed place, which I think does not go beyond the thought of righteousness.

F.L. Everything is regulated and kept in order by the sun.

Rem. That is what we are considering in regard to the thought of unity.

J.T. Unity goes beyond righteousness. Unity is really in affection.

Rem. That is what is set forth in the thought of a centre power: the power of attraction.

J.T. Yes, but each star must retain its place, and that is an important part of the truth for us, but I think unity is in advance of that.

J.N.H. Righteousness is important to consider.

R.S.S. But righteousness does not necessarily bring us nearer together. It is affection that does that.

B. It will be seen in the company all delighting to give Christ the supreme place.

WHERE CHRIST'S NAME IS ABHORRED AND WHERE HE IS CHERISHED

Acts 4

J.T. I thought it would be well to see the effect of the testimony, as rendered by the apostles, on the leaders of the world; and then I think another important point in the chapter is that Christians now have that which they regard as their own company, which is marked off from the world.

F.L. I think that principle is one of the greatest value, perhaps of greater value in the last days than at any other time.

J.T. That is, Christians have that which they regard as their own.

F.L. Yes; their own company.

J.T. One may be justified in dividing the chapter into two distinct parts: the earlier part indicating the sphere in which the name of Christ is abhorred, and the other that in which Christ and His interests are cherished.

F.L. It seems to me that one very important reason why this should be of value to us now is, that there has grown up a kind of neutral ground and neutral state of mind; a circle where the name of Christ is not exactly abhorred, and yet it is not the home of the saints; so that it becomes of great value to go back to this in order that we do not drift into the camp that is outside, and that we keep true to our own company.

J.T. One safeguard for us is to be true to the testimony. That may be putting things on low ground, because it is making the believer's safety of more importance than the testimony, but it is true that as faithful to the testimony we are protected. We shall find that the influence of the world will be against us in the measure in which we are true to the testimony of Christ. The rank and file of men as a rule are not

exactly hostile to God; not that there is anything in nature that appreciates God, but the rank and file of the people listened to the apostles, and many believed. What is important to note is that the testimony of what was being accomplished in the name of the Nazarene stirred up the animosity of the leaders. Verse 5 says, "And it came to pass on the morrow, that their rulers, and elders, and scribes, and Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas, and John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. And when they had set them in the midst, they asked".

The whole circle of the leaders and their relatives were in commotion, because they evidently felt that this that was being done compromised and endangered their position. Therefore I think the importance of making clear that what is of God now for men is administered in this One who, in man's account, is nothing -- the Nazarene. Yet everything of God now is in His name. Then comes the importance of what was effected through Him. They preached through Jesus the resurrection. Not that He was risen simply, but that the resurrection came in through Jesus. That is, in a sense, the leading feature of the testimony; the power of God on behalf of man has come in through the One whom the leaders despised.

F.L. And so there was the introduction of a completely new order of things.

J.T. That is what the resurrection means.

F.L. So they had discernment of a certain kind. They saw the doom of their line if this were to gain ground.

J.T. Just so; as they had said in John 11:48: All men would believe on Him, and the Romans would come and take away both their place and nation.

F.L. One can understand the extraordinary energy and consuming zeal in a man like Saul of Tarsus who was a leader amongst men. At the outset of his life

everything that he stood for and valued, was imperilled if this new thing was to gain ground.

J.T. These men evidently felt that the ground was slipping from under their feet. They were the leaders of the people.

W.C.R. You find in Acts 19 the hostility of the world, to the testimony of Paul, in Demetrius the silversmith and others. They saw their craft was in danger.

J.T. Just so; and the truth of the resurrection is so sweeping that it involves the total displacement of the man that exists literally.

F.L. I think that is an interesting point our brother mentions. Here we get the undermining of Judaism, and at Ephesus it was the undermining of the world of arts and idolatry. The testimony of the risen Man at the right hand of God was undermining every principle.

J.T. So that it is helpful in that connection to examine the book of Joshua, because it corresponds with the testimony of the apostles. The book of Joshua, I think, gives us the leading features of the world, the strength of the world system: the political centre, and the centre of literature: the city of the giant and the city of the book. Both were taken possession of by Caleb. That is, the energy of the Spirit in the testimony of the apostles overthrew all these great centres by which men are held. The politics of the world, and the literature and culture of the world were set aside. These are things by which Satan holds men, and the testimony of the apostles overthrew them. That is to say, it overthrew them for those who believed. So that in the Christian company there was not one single element of the world system remaining. All were overthrown.

Rem. It was in connection with the healing of this lame man that all this was brought about.

J.T. Yes. He was the standing witness to the

power wielded in the name of Jesus and the leaders say, "we cannot deny it".

A.N.W. What character of enmity do you see in Herod at the birth of Christ?

J.T. I think Herod's hatred was the antichristian hatred. I think he stands for the antichrist in that respect, because it was a question of the King. The testimony of the wise men was, that there was a King born: "Where is he that is born King of the Jews?" Matthew 2:2. Now if a King was born to the Jews, Herod was superseded. So that virtually his hostility was to the King.

F.L. They are both united here in the prayer of the Christian company - Herod and Pontius Pilate - not that Herod, indeed, but his son. He was the anti-christian element, and Pilate represented the empire.

J.T. I think the earlier part of this chapter shows the sphere in which the testimony is rendered; and, moreover, it gives an idea of what is presented; that is to say, the resurrection. The power of God is presented in the name of Jesus. Things on God's part are brought to pass by Jesus.

G.A.T. Did he have a reason for putting in Jesus of Nazareth here; verse 10?

J.T. Yes; and so all through these chapters. "Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?" John 1:46. It was a term of reproach, and God accepts the term but He shows that however little men may have thought of His Son, it was in that name that things were being done here upon earth. Not through the priests and elders, but in that Man's name; so the point Peter makes is, "neither is there salvation in any other". "There is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" Acts 4:12. -- a most sweeping statement. Christians have been accustomed for twenty centuries to honour Christ, but in those days Christ was regarded popularly as an

impostor, and of little or no account, so far as the world saw; so that it was a most sweeping statement to make, that salvation was in no other name under heaven. That meant that the priests' names went for nothing. These men had names; but now it was evident that in God's account their names and offices went for nothing. If their position meant anything, it meant that they were there on God's behalf. They were the high priests and now if God was acting in another name, their offices went for nothing.

G.A.T. The lame man was a proof of what was being done. Does that speak to us at all?

J.T. I have often thought that there ought to be a witness to the testimony of the gospel. Would you not say that?

F.L. I think so most fully. I think it is a most important point to bear in mind and one should be careful in regard to the testimony of the gospel to see what there is supporting it, and if there is nothing, cry to God about it. It seems evident here that the point was the energy and vitality in the man, in the standing and leaping and walking and praising.

A.H. Do you mean, if you do not see any fruits?

F.L. I was not thinking of that, but rather the question of what God has wrought as being the support and evidence in connection with the testimony that is being given.

J.T. Yes. Peter's testimony here is supported by the man. The man was an evidence of God's power.

G.A.T. Is it not right that he stuck to them? He kept their company, he did not join himself to anybody else.

J.T. But the faithfulness of Peter is very remarkable, and the way in which he makes it so clear that there is not any other; because the question here is not of what Christ is personally, but of what He is officially. They were officials, and therefore they could well understand the force of what he was saying.

J.N.H. His name Jesus would attach to Him officially.

J.T. He is not here, He is in heaven but His name is under heaven.

A.N.W. What were these people the builders of?

J.T. It is a question of the ground they occupied. As a matter of fact they were not building anything for God. But God gives them credit for building, and He presents Christ to them as a stone. It seems to me to be wonderful condescension on the part of God to present His Son to the builders in that way for their acceptance or rejection, but He did it, and they rejected Him; that is, they were at issue with God, because God had a different mind from theirs in regard to the stone. His mind was so different that God gave Him the most conspicuous place in the building, showing this intrinsic worth of the stone in God's account.

F.L. I would like to emphasise that by reading this: "to whom coming a living stone, cast away indeed as worthless by men" - a very strong expression -- "but with God, precious ... To you therefore who believe is the preciousness". 1 Peter 2:4,5 & 7. I think the issue is drawn there in very strong lines.

J.T. That is a very strong expression, "cast away as worthless by men". Here he is dealing with the leaders of Israel, and gives them full credit as being builders, but as builders they were poor judges of stone.

G.A.T. Pilate was not sure what to do with Christ.

J.T. The priests had no hesitation. They said, "Away with him". John 19:15. So that this section of the chapter is important. We were seeking this morning to dwell on the testimony, and this scripture helps us to see the features of the testimony. The things that the apostles presented were, resurrection as having come in through Christ, and that salvation was in His

name here upon earth. There was active power for good in the name of Christ here.

R.S.S. The question was asked this morning as to what the important features were in connection with the establishment of the church, in the first instance, to which now, in a day of failure, we have to go back. What should engage our attention the most? I think you mentioned in that connection the commandments of the Lord.

J.T. And then I think as recognising His authority in that way, the next thing would be unity amongst us; for any unity that does not recognise the authority of Christ is evidently spurious. Therefore the commandments of Christ are of so much importance. I think the object of the enemy at the present time is not so much to scatter God's people; his object is rather to corrupt them. That is, to set aside the authority of Christ amongst them. The maintaining of unity at the cost of the authority of Christ would serve Satan's ends.

W.L.P. Would you say Christ's words are the same as Christ's commandments?

J.T. Not quite. Christ's commandments are specific. You value His words because they are His. It is not exactly what the words may be, but rather that they are His words. You keep His words.

R.S.S. As expressing His mind rather than His distinct commandments. Commandment carries with it the thought of obedience.

J.T. Yes, it is specific whereas word may not be a commandment, but a communication or revelation. For instance, Mary sat at the Lord's feet and heard His word. It is not a question of the things that He said. The point is rather, that she was listening to that Person.

F.L. The word of the Lord would include all that He has spoken, all that He has opened up of the counsels of God; while a commandment would be

illustrated in this: "A new commandment I give unto you that ye love one another as I have loved you" John 15:12.

J.T. Yes; and the commandments were intended to regulate us in His absence. In giving a commandment the thought is largely that you are not there yourself, and the commandment is to take your place. One that kept Christ's word would gladly recognise His commandment, but the commandments precede the word in the history of our souls. You must submit to Christ's authority.

B. Would the one speak of authority and the other of affection?

J.T. Yes, more that. The Lord would open up His heart to us; that is His word.

J.N.H. In view of this question that we are discussing, where would you place, "this do in remembrance of me"? Luke 22:19.

J.T. That is scarcely a commandment, but more a request. Commandments are specific and there are no modifications There is no release from the obligation the Lord's commandments lay upon us.

R.S.S. But the Lord's expressed desire that we should break bread in remembrance of Him does not involve obligation in the same sense.

F.L. I think where it is a question of a wish or a known desire on the part of one we love, it takes the force of a command, but it is not the same thing as a specific commandment.

A.A.T. What are some of His specific commandments?

J.T. I take the whole of 1 Corinthians as conveying to us the commandments of the Lord.

W.H.F. Have you the two thoughts in John 14:21 & 23, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me", and "If a man love me he will keep my words"?

J.T. Yes. In that chapter He speaks of sending

the Comforter on the ground of their loving Him and keeping His commandments. He contemplates the whole company of the saints as loving Him; but as He proceeds in the passage I think He takes into account the history of the assembly: some would not love Him and therefore they would break His commandments, and so to keep His commandments in those days would be the proof of love; hence, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me", John 14:21.

R.S.S. Is that the reason why, in that part of the chapter, he speaks of the individual -- he?

J.T. Yes. In a day like ours our love for Christ is tested by adherence to His commandments.

W.H.F. "If a man love me, he will keep my words". John 14:23.

G.A.T. Would the new commandment cover it all?

J.T. Not quite, because you require specific commandments for conditions arising, and conditions arose at Corinth which served as an occasion for the Lord to give certain rules by which the assembly is to be controlled. You need light about certain things, and the apostle gave it to the Corinthians. The test of a man's spirituality would be that he recognised what the apostle wrote as the commandment of the Lord; 1 Corinthians 14:37.

W.L.P. We find Christ's commandments in the epistles as well, do we not?

J.T. I think so. Maybe if we inquired into it we should be able to locate them.

F.L. I think we get support in that, because the apostle, in writing to the Corinthians, distinguishes between his own judgment and the commandments of the Lord. I hope we shall take this very much to heart, because I am sure that the trouble amongst us is very much the kind of looseness that if we think we have a right motive we are justified, although transgressing the Lord's commandments. We can go

anywhere, or do anything, and trouble and confusion come in because we are not paying attention to His commandments.

J.T. As to John 14, what is so precious to the believer in days such as these is that the Lord contemplates that there should be some who would love him, and all the blessedness of the assembly in its original days would be made good to such. Some would not love Him, and hence the force of what He says as to those who would.

R.S.S. Would the individual have the Father and the Son abiding with him?

J.T. I do not say that he would have it as isolated, but he would enjoy it. Where he would have it is another matter; the passage does not indicate this. All it indicates is that the person, on account of his state, would enjoy the divine presence. I have no doubt at all that it is amongst the saints; you would enjoy it in the assembly, though there might be others about you who do not love Him and do not keep His commandments. It would be guaranteed to you because of your state.

F.L. You must not lose the value of the personal pronoun, and its singular number.

W.L.P. It is individual in Revelation 3:20: "If any man hear my voice and open the door".

J.T. Yes. "I will come in to him and sup with him and he with me". You may have a company of Christians gathered, and only a very few get the benefit of the divine visitation, because the enjoyment of the presence of a divine Person depends on your state.

Rem. Then the proof of your love is in keeping His commandments.

J.T. Yes. You often hear brethren say, 'I have the best motive, and the Lord knows my heart', but what we have to go by is what the Lord has enjoined, not what is in people's hearts.

R.S.S. That is where David broke down in connection with the bringing up of the ark. The motive was all right, but he did not do it "after the due order". 1 Chronicles 15:13. The consequence was that God expressed His displeasure by the death of Uzzah.

J.T. And the same comes out in Saul the king. I think he had the most plausible excuses in not waiting for Samuel, but then he had broken the Lord's commandments. Samuel says, "Thou hast done foolishly". He said he could not help it, that the Philistines were upon him. His excuses were very plausible, but Samuel says, "But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought him a man after his own heart". 1 Samuel 13:14.

W.C.R. You see the same thing when Moses smote the rock.

F.L. Things which are very much exercising us at the present time have this character: that men, honestly moved by kindly sentiments and by well meaning motives, are ignoring divine principles and divine precepts and that is why there is confusion. Just as soon as we regard what we are now speaking of, confusion disappears.

J.T. Yes. It is said, 'It was not sufficient to cause any trouble'; but that is making little of sin.

R.S.S. And of the commandments of the Lord.

J.T. Yes. As Samuel says further to Saul, "stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry". 1 Samuel 15:23.

F.L. It is a common enough saying in the world, that the sin in the garden of Eden was not sufficient cause to bring all this suffering into the world. It was an injunction, a commandment, and it was the breaking of it that has brought all the trouble into the world. And that remains true all through. So long as we give God His rights, we are right and safe from confusion, but the moment we get the impression that anything in the way of a precept is of minor importance we land into trouble.

J.T. I think it is most encouraging, that whilst we are responsible to keep His commandments, yet the result is that, as doing so, the Lord manifests Himself to us.

R.S.S. And I rather think we have an impression connected with commandments as being something hard and difficult, whereas they are not. We are, if we love Him, very anxious to know what the Lord would have us to do under certain conditions, and it is an immense gain to us to have His commandments; thus we are not left without definite instructions. They are not burdensome or grievous; they are the expression of the Lord's direct mind and will, and to one who loves Him, it is a great relief to find that.

G.A.T. Supposing you are in a meeting, and you notice the commandments of the Lord are broken, perhaps in a small way, would it be better to leave it alone or take it up and divide the saints over it?

J.T. I think the rights of Christ must be the first consideration with every one that loves Him. That is a cardinal principle in the assembly. It is on that principle we are gathered, and if not we are not gathered aright.

A.A.T. It would be unrighteousness, would it not?

J.T. Yes, and worse.

R.S.S. Because it is rebellion in a way.

J.T. It is, and that is the worst thing in God's account, it is what Satan was guilty of.

G.A.T. So you stand for the rights of Christ, and not for the feelings of your brethren?

W.H.F. Did not that come out in connection with Korah? It was rebellion.

J.T. Yes. Rebellion against the priest and king.

A.A.T. Do I understand that ordinary sins committed by saints are not so grievous to the Lord as ignoring His authority?

J.T. You would not like to modify sin in any way, but the Scriptures speak of rebellion as the leading

feature of sin and that is the reason why I regard the condition of Christendom as so serious. The authority of Christ is wholly disregarded, and you cannot have anything in God's account more serious than that.

A.A.T. That brings us back to what was said concerning the authority of the Lord and the Lord's supper.

J.T. Yes. There is the error of Balaam, who sought reward; and the gainsaying of Core. God would strike at rebellion; the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up Core and his company.

W.H.F. Do you not think that is the question at issue at the present moment?

J.T. Yes. It was the same thing in Bethesda. The rights of the Lord, and the order and holiness of the house of God were compromised.

L.K.M. Would it not be a help to us to recognise that the Lord's commandments are in connection with resurrection?

J.T. I think that His commandments, in a way, take His place till He returns. In leaving this world He has left certain commandments whereby his people are regulated till He returns.

W.H.F. He "commanded the porter to watch" (Mark 13:34): would not watching be regarding the commandments of Christ?

J.T. Yes. I think there is great need of porters just now, because what the enemy would do is to introduce evil elements. The work of the porters is largely to look after the door so that the right kind of people are admitted.

W.L.P. What would you say in regard to one who might be breaking bread with us and yet practically identified with others that are loose?

J.T. You would have to tell him that you could not walk with him.

R.S.S. That is in connection with any overt act.

J.T. Exactly. You cannot judge a man by what

he may intend to do. God waits for overt acts before He intervenes in judgment.

G.A.T. Suppose a man is going on contrary to what you believe, and opposes it?

J.T. I think you would have to wait for an overt act of rebellion before he should be refused.

R.S.S. That is what the Lord did in connection with Judas.

G.A.T. I suppose if a meeting was in a good spiritual condition he would be exposed quickly.

J.T. But it is evident we have to leave people in regard to their state; we must wait till they do something wrong before resorting to discipline.

R.S.S. As to John 14:21 -- "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them ... I will love him and will manifest myself to him". I was wondering if that has not a connection with what we were speaking about a good deal on a former occasion in connection with the Lord's supper: to break bread in remembrance of Him, because He is absent. But then this verse assures us that those who keep His commandments love Him, and to those who love Him, He will manifest Himself; and, therefore, while we are there we may expect Him to come and manifest Himself to us.

J.T. And therefore those who enjoy the manifestation are those who love Him. It does not follow that those who are there -- that every person literally in the meeting - will enjoy His presence. I think His presence is known to those who love Him.

R.S.S. And it is exceedingly encouraging to think of ourselves as coming together as those who love Him and have a claim on Him in that very way. You think of yourselves as a company into the midst of which the Lord can come.

Rem That being true, you could not keep Him waiting till the bread was broken.

J.T. The point that we have sought to make clear

is that the Lord comes in in connection with the breaking of bread. In that connection He is made known to us. The act of breaking bread is that through which He is brought to our affections.

W.C.R. That is the reason why it has been pressed by Mr. Raven that the bread should be broken early in the meeting.

J.T. Because you come to do that; but then you want to get what follows, that is, the divine presence; and I think you may reasonably expect it as conscious of loving the Lord.

R.S.S. Quite so. John 14:21 is a very great help to me in connection with the morning meeting, and in connection with the brethren. You like to take account of them as those who love the Lord, and you like to be in the company of those who do, and those who love Him have a claim on Him, and He recognises it. I was going to ask as to verse 18 which also occurs in that chapter: "I will not leave you comfortless, I am coming to you", not exactly 'I will come'. "I am coming" suggests His attitude, not exactly that He has come.

J.T. I think these verses, John 14:15 - 20, contemplate the assembly as we have been dwelling on it in the early chapters of Acts. The Lord contemplates the saints as in order, and loving Him, and the Spirit comes to them as such; that is evidently Acts 2. Of the Holy Spirit, He says, "that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you". John 14:16,17. Now all that is clearly fulfilled in Acts 2. Then He goes on to say, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you"; John 14:18. I think He simply views the church normally. After the Spirit has come, He says, as it were, 'I will come, too, I will not leave you orphans'. Undoubtedly they expected Him, and I am certain the Lord came

to them. He goes on to say, "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me; because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". John 14:19,20. Now I take that to be in the order of regular sequence, coming after the Spirit was given. The Lord would come personally to them, and they would live because He lives, and the world knew nothing of all this. But when He raises the question of the individual loving Him, I think He contemplates the breakdown, because they all loved Him at the beginning. You could not think of anybody in that company in Acts 2 not loving Him. But when He comes to verse 21 it is, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them ... I ... will manifest myself to him". John 14:21. I think He contemplates the possibility of some not loving Him, therefore I think it may apply to our own day.

B. Do you not think we come together as individuals in affection?

J.T. As individuals in the wilderness. We miss the Lord, knowing He is not here. We want to see Him. Now He has appointed a means whereby we may see Him, and we come together to break bread, and He is made known to us in the breaking of bread. It seems to me as simple and clear as possible. So the breaking of bread ought to suggest Christ to you. Who could do that but one who has the Spirit and who knows Christ? And as Christ is suggested to your affections, I think you discover that He is there. It is a real thing. The real Presence is there for all those who are equal to it.

R.S.S. And one likes to think it is of the Lord's devising, the means by which we call Him to mind; and for that reason there could not be anything better devised.

J.T. Because there is one thing that all do, and we have to do individually and often; that is, we have to eat. The disciples would eat three meals a day or

more, and the Lord evidently always broke the bread; so that it was a thing that He had done often, and so the way He did it must have been very familiar to them. It seems to me He leaves with them something that was intensely familiar to them. Thus the Lord leaves that simple reminder.

Ques. Is that the reason He was known by the two disciples going to Emmaus?

J.T. I think so. They could not fail to recognise Him.

G.A.T. As to manifestation, would that be some fresh impression every Lord's day?

J.T. I think that is what we were seeking to show the other day. If Christ comes in you always get something new, and it gives character to all you have to say the rest of the week. You may say the same things you said before; you may use the same texts, and the same thoughts, but you give a new turn to them.

W.H.F. Is it not in the way of communications, His coming in? I "will manifest myself to him". John 14:21.

J.T. No doubt, but I think He manifests Himself. You say, "It is the Lord". You arrive at it in that way; you feel it could not be any other than He.

G.A.T. Is it a right thing to say you come together to meet the Lord?

J.T. I think you come together to break bread.

F.L. Can you explain this, there is evidently some deep principle underlying it: When we get together in meetings of this kind, no matter what subject we take up, almost invariably we come to the Lord's supper? I think we might also say, invariably with great profit and with new light. I have been struck with it on this and other occasions.

J.T. It would look as though there was some special interest in it. I understand Mr. Darby used to say that brethren always got into Romans 7 at a reading, and I suppose it indicated where they were

at that time, and in that way what you say is encouraging.

W.H.F. I think I can bear witness to that; years ago Mr. Darby said it in this country.

J.T. I think the Lord delivered His people from that through the G. controversy. God always brings in something through these controversies, and the truth involved in Romans 7 was the issue at that time.

W.H.F. I think that whatever scriptures we take up, the Lord directs to the very point we need.

J.T. I think that what is before us at the present time is the house of God, and in this connection, undoubtedly, the Lord's supper has a great place.

R.S.S. Do you not think that perhaps we have found that it is at that point we touch the Lord in a special way, and He touches us? There is something exceedingly attractive to the soul in the supper, and for that reason there is perhaps a desire to get help, and to understand better what our privilege is in that connection.

F.L. I would like that we should get the thought in the second section of the chapter.

J.T. In regard to the first part, the elders enjoined the apostles "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" Acts 4:18. In the sphere which is indicated in the early part of the chapter you have the hostility of the leaders of the world against that name. I think every believer discovers that the spirit of the world is positively hostile to Christ, and that His name is refused. They were told "not to speak at all nor to teach". It was not that they were to renounce what they believed, but they were not to speak nor teach in the name of Jesus. That is, the enemy is content if you keep silence. But when you come to the second part (verse 23) you get your own company, and in that sphere of things that name is everything. That name is cherished, and the things of God are cherished there.

F.L. That is very good; the contrast is very suggestive, and what comes out in that circle is the manifest power of the Holy Spirit. The whole circle is engaged with the counsels of God concerning Jesus; and the identification of the Holy Spirit comes in by shaking the house with power; and then there is the moral conformity that comes out in the concluding verses, and especially as seen in Barnabas, who shows the spirit of a true Levite. He becomes a son of consolation; he devotes himself and his substance to the saints. It would all seem to run in a nice order there.

J.T. So the question would be, and it is a searching question, especially for young believers, as to whether that is the kind of company you would cultivate; a company in which the rights of God are maintained and cherished. God had anointed Christ, and the world was against Christ, and so the issue was really between God and the world; therefore the prayers uttered in the assembly take that into account. They speak of Herod and Pilate and the people being arrayed against Christ, whereas those in the assembly are wholly in sympathy with God in regard to the place He had given Christ.

F.L. I think we older ones would be disposed to say to the younger: Do not be so long in finding out the value of that place and company as some of us have been. I think we can look with a great deal of sympathy and affection and interest on those who are young in the way, and have a sincere desire of heart to be identified with that company.

J.T. I feel it is very serious as to those to whom God has given light, because if God continues His testimony for some years, we who have it now will be removed and another generation will have to take our place; so it is a very serious question for us as to whether we are going to hand down to them what we have had handed down to us. We should see to it

that in handling things that have come down to us we do not adulterate them; that we pass them on to those who follow us as we have received them. And, then, on the other hand, it is serious for the younger generation that are to follow, because in their day they will have to take up these things and stand for them.

B. Is it not a good thing to press on saints that they have to surrender their own interests?

J.T. That is the point. This company were wholly taken up with God's interests. God's rights were in question. The kings of the earth set themselves against God's rights, and these people were standing for them. In the case of Barnabas, he surrendered all he had here on account of the interests of God. That is what marks those who are standing for the truth. In our day it is a question of 2 Timothy days; the truth has been passed down from one faithful man to another, so that it is a very serious matter as regards ourselves as to whether we are going to be faithful and pass it on to others.

F.L. Jude wrote in view of the last days, and his exhortation is to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints". Jude 3. I understand that is the whole scope of what is "in Christ Jesus"; and it is that we should contend for.

J.T. We cannot deny that the testimony has been handed down to us, and our obligation is to hand it down to others.

Ques Did Mr. Darby do that?

J.T. Yes, he and others handed it down to us.

CHRIST AS SPEAKER

Matthew 17:35; John 17:26

What I desire is to seek to engage your hearts with Christ as Speaker. It is evident that God intended to communicate His thoughts by means of speaking, and therefore He took up different vessels from time to time in order to communicate His mind through them. So you find in the ways of God there were many speakers, as we are told, "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets". Hebrews 1:1. What I wish to make clear is, that now all speaking is by the Son. As we were saying this afternoon, God has recovered man in sonship, and all that He accomplishes now through man is through him as in sonship, so you will find in the New Testament that all that which God undertook to accomplish before is now taken up afresh and accomplished in permanency by the Son. There were many things that God undertook to do, such as speaking, writing and building; but, because of the character of the instruments used, imperfection marked everything that had been done, So that you find in the New Testament that God undertakes to do all these things now by the Son. Whether it be speaking or writing or building or ruling, all is by the Son. And all that the Son does is done in permanency and perfection.

So I wish to engage you with the Son as the Speaker. He is now the One through whom all communications from God to us are made, and hence I brought the passage in Matthew 17 to your attention. The Father's voice is heard from the cloud. The cloud indicates the Father's house, and it comes into view for the specific purpose of calling attention to the Son as a Speaker. Moses and Elias (great speakers) were there, but they are withdrawn,

and the Father's voice is heard from the cloud, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him". Matthew 17:5. So the Speaker is One in whom the Father's pleasure is. And it is He who is to be heard.

I wish, if I can, to show you that in the Old Testament in the typical part you get foreshadowings of Christ as Speaker; but what I wish especially to show is, that each man of faith in his closing word to men, set forth some feature of the testimony, and that feature of the testimony was the feature for which he in the ways of God stood personally. Therefore I shall refer to certain men of faith to show you that that which comes out now fully and perfectly in Christ had been set forth in individuals in the Old Testament. Now all is established permanently in Christ. When I choose to speak of the closing addresses of these men, I do so because I believe that the last words of any man embody substantially that which he represented in regard to the testimony of God.

I begin with Noah. In referring to him one must admit that the last words of Noah recorded were uttered long before his death. Nevertheless, his last speech, according to Scripture, is in Genesis 9, and it indicates what he stood for personally in the development of the testimony. That is to say, Noah stood for government. Noah is a type of Christ in other respects, but he is a type of Him in relation to government, and his pronouncement as to his sons conveys to us what he stood for; he stood for government, and his last recorded statement indicates what came to pass in the government of God in connection with his posterity. I do not dwell upon Noah, only to indicate that as a speaker he foreshadowed Christ. He had something to say which had reference to Christ. He blessed Shem and Japheth and he cursed the posterity of Ham. The speech is brief, but it

indicate that which, in the government of God, befell his posterity.

Now I proceed to call attention to Isaac. One cannot but refer to Isaac with pleasure. His name signifies laughter. Isaac stands for Christ as the One in whom the blessing of God became effectuated. He superseded his father Abraham. He was conscious that he was qualified to bless. I take his utterance in the blessing of Jacob; he was, in type, the vessel of the blessing. This may be taken as his closing word, for it was spoken in view of his death, and it conveys to us that feature of the testimony which he represented personally. He was conscious of being the vessel of God's blessing, and he passed it on to Jacob. So that he was a speaker, and his words conveyed what he stood for. He stood for the blessing of God. Isaac is Christ, the heavenly man in resurrection.

Now I pass on to Jacob. Jacob is the Jew: he is typical of Christ in relation to God's earthly people, in all the trials and vicissitudes of their history. In all their sorrows and their joys Jacob represents them. When we come to Jacob as a type we descend to the level of God's people here on earth in their responsibility, Christ with them; the Lord took a place in relation to Israel. He descended to where they were. "In all their afflictions he was afflicted". Isaiah 63:9. Jacob represents the Israel of responsibility.

Now when you come to the closing words of Jacob that is exactly what you find. In Genesis 49 we have recorded from his lips an outline of the history of God's people. He calls his sons together and he says, "Gather yourselves together that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days". Genesis 49:1. And he faithfully outlines, in a prophetic way, from beginning to end, the history of the people. There was much wickedness; that, for instance, of Reuben; and as to Simeon and Levi, instruments of cruelty

were in their habitations, and in their anger they slew a man. Then you get apostasy in Dan; and Issachar was a strong ass, couching down between two burdens. Now these things communicate to us what the people were as in responsibility, but there are the relieving features, especially seen in Judah and Joseph. Judah had the royal sceptre, and Joseph was a fruitful bough whose branches went over the wall; so that, whilst it is the people in responsibility, they are not without hope. Christ is contemplated. Shiloh should be the gathering centre, and in speaking of Joseph, Jacob says, "from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel". Genesis 49:24. There are bright gleams of hope in the outline of responsibility, but nevertheless it is the responsible people.

We come to Moses next. With him it is not the responsible people. He did have to do with the people as in responsibility, of course, but the great end of his ministry was the deliverance and blessing of Israel. In this respect he represents Christ. He also typifies Christ as over the house of God. Here his personal greatness shines. He was the man who had to do with the house of God. If there is anything that puts us to the test, it is the house of God. And what came to light in regard to Moses is this, that although he had to do with the perverseness of the flesh, he was the meekest man in all the earth. I think he may be said to be the greatest man in the Old Testament.

He rises to the full height of God's thought in Deuteronomy 33. I can only touch upon it. It is his closing utterance. The chapter records the dying words of Moses. I judge that a man's deathbed is the moment of his weakness, but you will find with men of faith that their dying words are most pregnant with victory. So it was with Isaac and Jacob. And so it is with Moses. The man of faith is never

discouraged. The darker the day the brighter he shines. Moses began to speak of blessing when he was about to die. It is only in the light of Christ that he could thus speak. He is not now dealing with the people he had led through the wilderness. That people had departed in the brazen serpent. The brazen serpent had terminated that people for ever. A new generation had appeared as the effect of the Holy Spirit (the springing well), having come in typically, and that generation was blessed. So that you will find as Moses takes up each of the tribes he has nothing to say about any of them but what indicates blessing. He begins with Reuben: "Let Reuben live and not die". Deuteronomy 33:6. He was worthy of death, but death had come in already. It must be remembered that Moses' last words were spoken in the land of Moab. They were not spoken in Egypt, nor strictly in the wilderness, but in the confines of Canaan, after the brazen serpent and the springing well. Therefore this chapter has reference to a people who have the Spirit. God loves such a people -- "Yea, he loved the people". Deuteronomy 33:3.

Next I come to David. His closing words are recorded for us in 2 Samuel 23"these be the last words of David". I take it that the few words recorded from David's lips here convey to us what he stood for in his testimony. Jacob had spoken of the people in responsibility. Moses has blessed them. David does not speak of the people at all, but of the King. David's closing words therefore embody what he stood for. What did he stand for? He stood for the kingdom. Things had gone to the bad in Israel. The ark of the covenant had been taken captive; David comes forth, the anointed of the God of Israel, and he recovers the ark and establishes it in Zion. So he speaks of the King: "And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds as the tender grass springing

out of the earth by clear shining after rain". 2 Samuel 23:4. I desire that your hearts should be engaged with the King. God told David that the Man that ruled among men should be just and that He should rule in the fear of God. Who is that One? That is Christ. I think that every Christian heart can testify to the justness of Christ. Every one that has come into contact with Christ as a Ruler, and we must come in contact with Him as a Ruler, can say, He is a just Ruler. He rules in the fear of God. We may well commit ourselves into His hands. I have no hesitation in committing myself into the hands of Christ. He rules with perfect discrimination. That comes to light in His rule. It is a serious question for each Christian as to whether you are directly under the rule of Christ; and to be under the rule of Christ is to be happy. He is as a morning without clouds. I only speak of these things because David speaks of the King. Thank God, there is such a Ruler among men. Now what is He to you? Is He as a morning without clouds? If you want the sunshine to beam into your soul bow to that Ruler. Did you ever bask in the sunshine of a morning without clouds? that is, in the presence of Christ. Submitting unqualifiedly to the authority of Christ, you discover a morning without clouds. It is genuine and abiding happiness to be under the rule of Christ. I do not enlarge on what David says, but it certainly bears examination. He proceeds to speak of what is the effect in our souls when subject to Christ: "As the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain". 2 Samuel 23:4. I only speak of the King, and the importance of being subject to Christ as the Ruler among men.

All these testimonies pointed to Him personally. Noah spoke, Isaac spoke, Jacob spoke, Moses spoke, and David spoke, but none of them spoke about the Father. You get testimony rendered to many things,

but the appearance of the Son was needed so that men should hear about the Father.

I just wish to dwell upon that for a moment in closing. The Father was there in the cloud in Matthew 17, indicating that He had a place of abode. He calls attention to the Son: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him" Matthew 17:5. Now all I would hope for is that your heart would be interested in the Son. One finds that believers are interested if you speak of government, or blessing, or responsibility, or the kingdom, but when you come to the ground of divine relationships, and the abode of divine Persons, one has to admit that the interest weakens. But these last mentioned should interest us most, for they involve the peculiar privileges of the assembly. What these men of faith had to say they had to say to a people that did not belong to heaven. Now it seems to me that the Spirit of God would speak to our hearts as to the full height of the calling of the assembly. It remained for the appearing of the Son so that the full thought of God should be made known. The Father says, Hear Him. "This is my beloved Son ... . hear him". Matthew 17:5. Now Moses had said a great deal, and also Elias; they were both great men, but the Father indicated that there was a greater Speaker, and hence that there was more to say, and that is what I would endeavour to impress upon you.

The Holy Spirit would lead us to listen to Christ, and therefore I read the closing verse of John 17, because I take it as conveying to us the very highest part of what the Lord had to say. Beginning to speak publicly, the Lord said, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me". Luke 4:18. He stood up in the synagogue to read, and having read the roll from the prophet Esaias He gave it the minister, and the eyes of all that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him. There was the Man of God's pleasure. The

Spirit of God was upon Him, and He was about to speak on the part of God. He proceeds: "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears". Luke 4:21. And what do you get next? It says, "They wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth". Luke 4:22. That gives you an idea of the kind of Speaker that Christ was. They marvelled. Not exactly at what He said, but at the way He said it. He was the Speaker. What is recorded in John 17 was spoken to His Father. In the chapters immediately preceding He had been breathing out His closing words to the disciples, and now He turns to the Father about them, and in His closing sentence to Him He discloses substantially all that gave character to His life. In that closing sentence to His Father He gives expression substantially to what, in a sense, marked the whole of His ministry: "I have declared unto them thy name". John 17:26. How much does that cover? It covers, we may say, that ministry of which the apostle John tells us. He says, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written". John 21:25. The infinite magnitude of the ministry of Christ is traced by the beloved disciple in these words. He had listened to Christ and had seen His deeds, and his estimate is, that if all were written the world itself could not contain the books. Have you such an estimate of Christ? It is the estimate of one who loved Him and had witnessed His words and works. It was not a revelation, but John's own estimate of Christ and His ministry. There was one man that had a true estimate of Christ's ministry. That ministry could not be other than infinite, for in it the Father's name was declared. "I have declared unto them thy name". John 17:26. The name of the Father! Is not that infinite? Yet it is

declared so as to be apprehended and enjoyed by us. In coming out to speak the Lord took up every moral question, and nothing could be added to what He had to say on any point; but the declaration of the Father's name was in a special way to the disciples. Here it is covered in one sentence. I spoke about others; their whole ministry and all that they stood for being contained in their last words. Here Christ's ministry is put into that short sentence, and yet it was infinite! Now who could do that but the Son? The Lord had brought the Father into the light. The Son had made the Father known. Moses and David spoke according to their apprehension. No one could go beyond that. But the Lord is a divine Person, and He speaks in all the infinite knowledge that He possesses of the Father.

Now what was it that characterised Christ here upon earth? He says, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father". John 14:9. He had brought into evidence what God was. He had presented Him here before men in His words and works. He presented Him so perfectly that He could speak of Himself in that way -- "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father". John 14:9. The testimony was perfectly presented. But then He had instructed the disciples. The testimony of the Father was public. He was publicly the presentation of the Father to Israel, and the result was that He had to say, "Now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father". John 15:24. That was their estimate of Him. But then there were the disciples, and I trust that we are all in that position. We are disciples of Christ, and it is to disciples He makes known the Father's name. Now I do not know whether you have dwelt on the Father's name, but it signifies what the Father cherishes, what His renown is. That which specially represents the Father's heart is embodied in His name. All that was opened out and made known to the disciples. Christ

opened it up in His ministry to the disciples. They listened to Him. I think Mary of Bethany may be taken to be representative of the disciples. Whatever else may have marked them, they were attentive to Christ. I would press on everybody here the importance of paying attention to Christ. We are living in days when the commandments of Christ are being transgressed. They are being transgressed by His people and therefore the importance of paying attention to what He has to say, and I take it that Mary of Bethany represents that element in the disciples. She sat at His feet and heard His word. What do you think He told her?

Suppose you open your ear to Christ, what will He speak to you about? He will speak about the very greatest things. If you require forgiveness He will tell you all about that, if you need the Spirit He will give you the Spirit, but when your responsibility is met and you are free, He will tell you about the Father. He will open up the Father's heart and the Father's things to you. He will tell you all about what is inside that bright cloud. That is what He did for the disciples. "I have declared unto them thy name". What for? "That the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them". John 17:26. How little Peter understood that on the mount. To think that what was in God's mind was that that voice should actually have application in the principle of it to Peter. That Peter should be to the pleasure of God as in identification with Christ. Still there was nothing less in God's mind. God had expressed His delight in His beloved Son; and Peter and the others were sons, and so they were to be for God's pleasure. The love wherewith the Father loved Him should be in them, and He in them. Did it ever occur to you that the Lord Jesus seeks to have a place in your heart? He does. It may be the world has got a place there -- some ideal, some object,

but the Lord wants a place in your heart, and to that end He opens up to you the Father's name. The Father's name made known, the love of the Father is known in the heart, and the next thing is, that there will be a place in your heart for the Son. Then you will become a speaker -- you will speak of Christ

I refer for a moment to Psalm 45. The psalmist says, "My heart is inditing a good matter". Psalm 45:1. I do not know whether you have considered the word that is here translated, "inditing". It is a remarkable word. It means to spring or bubble, as you will notice in the margin. The heart was spontaneously welling up a good matter. Now what was the good matter? "I will speak of the things which I have made touching the king". Psalm 45:1. And then he proceeds to enlarge on the beauty of the King. So I think as we apprehend Christ in that light, as the Speaker, we cannot fail to speak about Him. He is not here on earth now to speak, but I think we should bear in mind that the Holy Spirit came in the character of cloven tongues. What I understand by that is that the Lord Jesus Christ intended to speak. He intended to speak everywhere. I think we should bear in mind that if God has given to us a tongue He has given it to us for a purpose, and that purpose is to speak of Christ. The psalmist says, "My tongue is the pen of a ready writer". Psalm 45:1. It was the ready member to convey that which the heart welled up by the Spirit. God grant that as the subject of divine speaking has been engaging us, we may not be slow to speak about divine Persons and divine things. As unconverted, you remember what your tongue was engaged in: "With their tongues they have used deceit". Romans 3:13. But now as under the power of the Spirit, these members are converted into vehicles for making known Christ, and the things of Christ. May God use these thoughts in that direction!

Pages 129 to 262 "Notes of Readings and Addresses, Indianapolis" 1908 (Volume 7).

CHRIST'S EXALTATION IN RELATION TO THE ASSEMBLY

Ephesians 4:1 - 16

E.J.W. The principal thought in my mind in suggesting this scripture is in connection with the position in which Christ is here presented, as having gone far above all heavens, and the divine object in this. It appears to me that in this epistle Christ is presented as the Man of divine purpose, the One in whom God will bring about the whole system of His purposes, which means an intelligent moral universe that will be suitable in every way to God. I take it that this is what is involved in Christ filling all things. What is very affecting to us is that before going up to His present position far above all heavens, He goes into the lower parts of the earth, because that is man's place; it was our place as having turned away from God into sin.

R.S.S. What do you understand "the lower parts of the earth" to mean?

E.J.W. I take it to refer to the grave. Man has to disappear from the earth proper because of having become lawless in regard to God. It is not man's proper place according to the divine ordering; this was in the upper parts of the earth, where he could live and enjoy the conditions established there by divine goodness, and in the light and good of the heavens, and the blessing of God as seen in Genesis 1 and 2; but sin having come in, he now has to disappear into the lower parts of the earth, as being unfit to remain under the eye of God in the place and system of things in which he had been set. Christ, in divine love, goes into the lower parts of the earth; He goes into death and takes upon Himself all that

under which the creation, represented in man, was lying, in order that, having effected redemption, He might become the great Head of all. He has now gone up far above all heavens, to the supreme point in the universe, in order that He might be in a position from which He can affect everything by His power, for God's pleasure and joy and the good of the universe.

R.S.S. You get what is parallel to this in Philippians 2, only that there it is more personal, bringing out the Lord's remarkable humility, and then the supreme name of glory given Him by the Father.

E.J.W. It is undoubtedly a matter of great importance that the Spirit can now engage us with an absolutely perfect Man, who is great enough, in every way, to fill with His influence every part and to affect every detail of the whole universe, that the whole system may be established and maintained in suitability to God.

J.T. It is especially interesting in a practical way because Christ is already able, from that point of exaltation, to bring to pass perfection here in the assembly; Ephesians 4:12 - 13.

E.J.W. It appears to be a point of the teaching of the chapter that there is already one circle, or family, filled from Him; that is, the assembly, viewed in its normal character in relation to Christ. The divine purpose regarding the universe is to find its anticipation, or first-fruits, there.

J.T. That is to say, He is now able to bring to pass perfection in the saints; "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" Ephesians 4:13. The divine thought is that the assembly should be fully qualified to set forth Christ.

W.H.C. Is there the thought that He goes down

into death in order that He might fill the universe with the light of God?

J.T. The thought of Christ ascending and descending is suggested by the gifts. Psalm 68 is quoted, and verses 9 and 10 are introduced parenthetically to enlarge on the bearing of the descending and ascending of Christ. The apostle states that which shows how occupied he was with Christ personally, and in verse 10 he shows the present place of Christ, and how He is acting from thence through the gifts for the perfecting of the saints prior to the time of display. We see the present expression of His power in the gifts and what is effected through them in the saints. What is of immense importance to us is that the gospels present to us perfection in man; that is, in Christ; then in the epistles, speaking in a general way, what is in view is the reproducing of that in the saints; what Christ is accomplishing at the present moment. He is working out the reflex of Himself. Before the assembly can be understood, Christ must be understood, because the assembly is a reflex of Christ. Adam said "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man", Genesis 2:23. The assembly is "the Christ", but Christ in that character which is suggested in the woman. The name he gave to each animal was characteristic, but when the woman is presented, he recognises her at once, because he knew himself. The formation of the assembly is now going on, and the gifts are to that end.

R.S.S. You would connect it with the deep sleep of Adam, and as you remarked you cannot understand the assembly except as you know Christ.

J.T. A man said to me the other day that you could not see the assembly in the holy city in the Revelation. Knowing Christ, we readily recognise the assembly in the heavenly city.

G.A.T. It is right then to look for perfection in the assembly.

J.T. We read here that the gifts are for the perfecting of the saints. It is important to be acquainted with the gospels and thus to come to know Christ as He was here. It is in this way we apprehend what God is seeking to bring to pass in the assembly now. After perfection is once here in Man, nothing else will do for God.

W.H.F. The work spoken of here would reach to the glory.

J.T. It is all brought to pass here by the Spirit. This is the time of building; there is no formation in the future.

J.S.G. The object in view in the gifts is that we should be no longer babes.

J.T. It is painful to note the babe state that marks the people of God. The exercise of anyone having to do with the things of God would be that babyhood should cease.

J.S.G. The church in the Revelation is seen as that in which perfection and finality are reached, and therefore that which will abide.

J.T. It is all that which came out in Christ. The assembly does not present anything that is new but what had already been manifested in Christ. It is His fulness,

E.J.W. The assembly is to be the fulness of Him who will fill all in all. It will be through the assembly that He will fill all things; it is, therefore, a necessity that the saints who compose the assembly should be formed in divine intelligence (verse 13) and love (verses 15 and 16) in order to be capable for their place and function, as the body of Christ; to be His fulness in God's world.

J.T. If we were able to analyse, we would find that all the qualities of Christ are there as the result of the Spirit's work; there is nothing lacking. The

Lord has supplied the assembly with all that will reproduce His qualities in it.

E.J.W. He will thus be set forth and known in that which is in process of spiritual formation at the present time. It is in view of this that saints are now being formed in intelligence and divine affections, and are to be full-grown, in order that in the coming day Christ may be admired in all them that believe.

W.H.F. The Head gives impulse to the members.

J.T. Yes, but in the preceding verses it is the gifts that build; there the body builds itself in relation to Christ. The joints are one and another of us, all standing in relation to Christ. Each saint has a certain function to perform, and the growth of the whole is dependent on each holding his place; that is, holding the truth, which regulates us. The truth is the perfect measure of everything. Christ, as come into the world, is the perfect measure of everything. It is that truth that regulates us.

K. The whole body takes character from the Head.

J.T. The Lord places us in relation to one another, and we are to hold the truth in love. There is to be activity in affection, and in that connection there is growth. We are not to remain babes. With babes there is not ability to rightly discern, and adjust themselves. The apostle says: "in malice be babes; but in your minds be grown men", 1 Corinthians 14:20.

E.J.W. The Scriptures give us certain marks of a man in Christianity as distinguished from a babe. I think it is helpful to recognise them. They speak, for instance, of love in 1 Corinthians 13; moral discernment and discrimination in Hebrews 5; and intelligence in Ephesians 4, as characteristics of a man.

H.G. There is courage also. "Quit you like men, be strong", 1 Corinthians 16:13, is another mark of a man in Christianity.

J.T. A man knows how to conduct himself among the saints.

E.J.W. The very things exhorted in verses 2 and 3 are indications of the divine thought, that there is to be on the earth at the present time a circle filled morally from Christ. Lowliness, meekness, longsuffering and bearing with one another in love do not find their origin here, but are the qualities and traits of Christ.

J.T. Yes, if the conditions here spoken of are fulfilled, Christ would be there morally.

J.S.G. In connection with the gifts, is not the thought that when Christ was here all the mind of God came out, and as gone up on high He bestows gifts in order that all the purpose of God may be kept before the saints?

E.J.W. It appears to me that underlying what we have here regarding the saints is God's great purpose concerning the universe -- all things. He will "gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth" Ephesians 1:10.

J.T. Yes. One feature of the divine purpose regarding the universe is unity. This had been established among the saints at Ephesus, and now this is to be maintained for there is one body. The idea would be to maintain here a testimony to God as being one.

R.S.S. And that is very important. I suppose the best characteristic that could be found in a meeting would be unity according to God, and it would be that which would involve its prosperity and blessing.

J.T. The tabernacle sets forth typically God's testimony. There is great variety in the order of things it represents, but unity is seen throughout. There were different parts, but all bound together so as to be one tabernacle. In the future there will be distinctions of privilege, but unity will pervade all.

R.S.S. One of the most prominent thoughts in Scripture is the establishment of unity. In the world to come there will be infinite variety, but no rivalry. Ephraim will not vex Judah, nor Judah Ephraim; all will be maintained in divine order in unity.

J.S.G. They will learn from the assembly, and the assembly learns from Christ. It is God's present intention that unity should be seen in the assembly.

J.T. Where there is unity the greatness of the provision which Christ has made for us in the Spirit is discovered. I believe that where the conditions spoken of in this chapter obtain there will be the evidence of gift.

W.H.F. There can be no blessing apart from unity and order.

J.S.G. The exhortations here have unity in view, and then if there is unity there will be the disclosure of the wonderful provision Christ has made for us.

J.T. He gives grace to every one of us. Every believer has received grace from Christ for the good of all, "to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ", Ephesians 4:7.

E.J.W. The grace given is, I take it, grace suited to the place and function of the individual in the body. Do you think it is so?

J.T. Yes. I may think I have a very difficult place to fill and that someone else has an easier one, but the difficulties will not exceed the grace. The grace supplied is according to the measure of Christ's gift. This measure is infinite.

J.S.G. Saints are viewed in this epistle as God's habitation, Christ's body, and God's family; and grace is needed and given for each of these.

J.T. I find myself among the Lord's people, and in whatever connection I have to do with them, I need

grace for the practical working out of things, and the word is -- "he gives more grace". James 4:6.

W.H.C. Would the measure of the grace which is impressed on all be what Christ is to you?

J.T. Grace is the help which flows to you from Christ through the Spirit; and this is in connection with the maintenance of unity which has been established among saints. There may be no gift in a meeting, but if the conditions indicated in the first few verses are present, there will be unity and then there will be gift. Unity forms the conditions for the disclosure of what Christ can do for us, and so the gift will come. The power of Christ will be there for the perfecting of the saints, in order that they may come to full growth.

R.J.W. The prominence which is given to unity among saints in the Scriptures is significant and ought to arrest our attention and exercise us. It appears to have been one of the principal burdens of Paul's heart and writings. It is that which the Spirit of God constantly works to maintain and Satan to destroy.

R.S.S. How is unity practically brought about and maintained?

E.J.W. I should say that it is by our being individually in the appreciation of Christ as the Head, and thus coming under His influence. The headship of Christ is a great spiritual reality. If in the good of it, we shall be under the influence of Christ in such a way as to be formed by it, and unity will be the practical result. I think the divine principle for the maintenance of unity is seen in Psalm 133. That which was personal to Aaron was upon his head and flowed down to the skirts of his garments. Aaron, no doubt, represents Christ as the Head, and the skirts of His garments the saints on earth; these become redolent with that which in the first instance was found with the Head alone.

No doubt it refers to the affections and qualities of Christ.

W.H.F. That would bring in the Spirit. Unity can only be maintained as we keep near Christ, and lowliness, meekness, longsuffering, etc., are found with us. Then we shall be able to keep that which has been established in the Spirit.

J.S.G. The obligation rests upon us all to use diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace; Ephesians 4:3.

J.T. There is the responsibility. The unity was once for all brought to pass by Christ and our responsibility is to keep it.

J.S.G. An illustration of how unity is brought about is found in Luke 15. There was music. Music is perfect harmony of sound, by sounds being perfectly blended. It is brought about by the appreciation of all that Christ is.

J.T. The unity of the Spirit is a practical thing. It is the witness of spiritual affections being present among us. In Acts 2 the unity and witness were established, and everyone has to come into that which is established, and to keep it. In Ezekiel 37 Judah and Joseph had been divided, but they became one stick in the hand of the prophet, indicating that God's purpose regarding Israel is unity. The same thing is true in the assembly. Of twain one new man is made. What caused the division is abolished in the death of Christ. The point is that there is to be a testimony for God. The gospel rightly presented brings about unity.

E.J.W. What happened at Babel was the confounding of language, which caused general division and scattering. But God's intention regarding men is unity, and the moment the true Head is in His place as glorified (Acts 1) the gift of tongues is introduced (Acts 2). In this way, in the Spirit's presence and power, and based on the cross of Christ, there is

a point and a principle of recovery from Babel; that is, from this world in its confusion in evil.

R.S.S. It is interesting and assuring to see that God will not allow unity in that which is evil. He prevents it for the good of His people. In a coming day there will be a trinity of evil in unity -- the dragon, the beast and the false prophet (Revelation 13). But God does not permit any general unity of evil while the saints are here. An anarchist once said, 'If we were only united we could turn the world upside down'. We can thank God that He does not allow unity of the forces of evil to be effected.

J.T. What has really come to pass in Christendom is that there is a point of return to Babel, for the different nations do not understand each other's language. It may be judicial. Understanding is found only among those who recognise the Spirit of God.

R.S.S. The idea of God giving a testimony to what He is in Himself is important. It is a prominent thought in Ephesians that God is forming the assembly in order that what He is in Himself may be set forth in the coming day.

READING MATTHEW 11

J.T. In comparing the different gospels I think Matthew may be said to be the assembly gospel. The prominent feature of this gospel is the introduction of the assembly as that which should supersede Israel here in connection with the government of God. There is a certain analogy between Matthew and Hebrews. Hebrews shows how the new system of things in Christ should supersede Judaism; this was most important for Jewish Christians to understand. Matthew does not present the assembly in relation to God's purposes exactly, but in its present formation as set here on earth in support of God's testimony.

R.S.S. It is singular that the gospel which presents the Lord as the Messiah to Israel is the gospel in which the assembly is found. The truth of the assembly, however, was consequent on Christ's rejection.

J.T. You not only have His rejection here; you have the rejection of the Spirit as well; Matthew 12:24 - 32.

J.S.G. In this chapter the Lord is rejected, but in chapter 12 He rejects them.

J.T. It was difficult for Jewish Christians to dissociate themselves from the earthly system. Matthew's gospel was intended to instruct them in regard to Christ; to show historically that He was rejected, and that the assembly was built by Him as that which should supersede Israel, so that they might associate themselves absolutely with it.

J.S.G. In Hebrews they were taught that their place was inside the veil, and so outside the camp on earth.

J.T. Everything now is connected with Christ in the heavens, and the heavenly order of things supersedes the earthly.

J.S.O. Do you think that in this chapter the Lord takes the place of being God's centre?

J.T. Things now in that way turn on Christ. I think the presence of Christ among the people was the testimony. His presence amongst them, as in the earlier chapters, brought out what was there. If there was any good, it would have been brought out by the presence of such an One. Woe is pronounced on the cities. They should have repented, but the state of things in Israel was worse than in Sodom and Gomorrha. The Spirit shows that it was impossible that that system could remain. Here was the Ark of the covenant amongst them, and there was no appreciation of it and no protection for it. But God's testimony must be preserved here on earth. Hence the necessity for the assembly as seen in chapter 16; the gates of hell should not prevail against it.

Neither Matthew nor John presents the historical fact of the Lord's ascension, whereas Mark and Luke do. In Mark He goes to the right hand of God in connection with the testimony. He "sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following", Mark 16:19,20. The Lord on the right hand of God was the guarantee that the preaching should be universal "to all the creation". In Luke the Lord is received up into heaven. He goes up in the attitude of blessing. Luke presents God coming out for man's good and blessing. It is not only that men should be relieved on earth, but there is a place in heaven for them. "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven", Luke 10:20. Our triumph is not only that we have power on earth over evil, but our names are written in heaven. The excess of God's grace is seen in taking us up and giving us a place in heaven, Ephesians 2. The exceeding riches of His grace are that

there should be a place for us in heaven. In John the point is that we should know the Person. Seven signs are recorded to the end that the saints should believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing they might have life through His name. Turning the water into wine is a characteristic sign. It manifested His glory and His disciples believed on Him.

Matthew, as we have been saying, is the ecclesiastical gospel. It presents the Lord as the Messiah in the midst of Israel and rejected as such; then He is revealed to be the Son of the living God, and consequent on this the assembly is introduced. The character and position of the assembly, as taking the place of Israel, and indeed of the Lord Himself, is the leading feature of this gospel.

R.S.S. In John they should believe that Christ is the Son of God. Matthew presents Him as the Christ.

E.J.W. In John the signs were given that His greatness might be known.

J.T. His disciples believed on Him. The faith of the multitude was of no value; see John 2:24, 25.

E.J.W. It is significant that the first sign that is given is in connection with His glory, to manifest His greatness, and this indicates, no doubt, the character of the other signs in this gospel.

J.T. It was a remarkable sign, performed in connection with man in his brightest day.

J.S.G. The signs are to show who He is. In Matthew it is to show that God is amongst His people. "God with us". Matthew 1:23. The key to this chapter is that He takes the point of being God's centre. He is the gathering point for God's people.

J.T. His ministry, although so perfectly rendered, had effected nothing in the nation; as to it, all was hopeless. The greatest born of women fails; how, then, can the testimony be maintained by man in

the flesh? But the Lord retires into the sense of what the Father is and what He would accomplish; "thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes", Matthew 11:25. He shows that God was acting on judicial grounds in hiding His things from those who assumed to be wise, but He discloses them to the babes. The character of the babe qualifies us for divine disclosures. God's sovereign rights over heaven and earth; His being revealed as Father; the babes, and Christ as the gathering centre, engage us here; Israel being rejected for the moment. This is the groundwork of what follows in this gospel.

R.S.S. What are the characteristics of a babe in this connection?

J.T. A babe stands here in contrast to a wise man in this world. It pretends to nothing. A little child represents a person of no importance in this world. The reception of such a person into your house would not distinguish you in the eyes of men.

J.S.G. They found everything in Christ, and He promoted confidence in Himself. They received Him. The idea of a babe is most touching in Scripture as showing that which should mark those in the kingdom.

W.H.C. They were of a new generation.

R.S.S. In the gospels little children are contrasted with men of this world; but in the epistles, viewed in the graded relationship involved in a family, they are contrasted with young men and fathers.

E.J.W. In the gospels a babe is one who possesses a certain spiritual character, such as God can value. He is one whose eyes are open to the true character of the world, its wisdom, culture, honour, etc., as being morally worthless. He has grown up in this order of things, but is ready to turn away and disappear from it in order to start, and grow up afresh, in the new and divine system of things which is of God and in Christ.

J.T. It is to the babes that the disclosures are made. In the kingdom the least is greater than John the Baptist, who was the greatest of those born of women. A place in the kingdom necessitated another birth. Psalm 8 is interesting in connection with the babes. "Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger". Psalm 8:2. "Enemies" here refers to those hostile to Christ inside Judaism; "the enemy" is one outside; see Note in New Translation. That which God established in the babes should meet both enemies.

W.H.F. The babes would correspond with wisdom's children. Wisdom was, so to speak, begetting children, and she would be justified of all of them.

Rem. The Lord said, "Behold I and the children which God hath given me", Hebrews 2:13.

J.T. Israel had rejected Him, but God compensated Him by giving Him children; and then the children should be for signs and wonders in Israel. Israel proving reprobate, the babes are necessary to the accomplishment of God's counsels. All the working out and development of God's ways should come out in connection with the babes.

E.J.W. The babes are seen to be very important in the divine estimation at this juncture, for it is in this connection that God says, "the sheep shall be scattered, and I will turn my hand upon the little ones", Zechariah 13:7. The nation is proved to be hopelessly unbelieving and morally worthless; then the "little ones" become the objects of the divine interest, and the centre of God's activities and ways in the earth.

J.S.G. It was important that the disciples should know that the Father was Lord of heaven and earth. "Lord" here is in the sense of controller of everything. The Father was just carrying out His own will. The babes were let into the secret of the

Father's thoughts, how that everything should revolve around Christ.

R.S.S. If you are a babe in the true sense, you will be like the Lord -- meek and lowly in heart. You learn that from Him. Simon in Acts 8 gave out that he was some great one. The babe assumes to be nobody, and is absolutely dependent.

J.T. It is important to see that this group of babes should be taken up by the Father and formed after the pattern of the Son, and should become the nucleus of God's universe. Christ is the model; "Learn from me". Matthew 11:29. There should be nothing in the new order of things that is not morally like Christ. This is brought about by taking Christ as our model. These babes ultimately formed the assembly.

R.S.S. Why is the revelation of the Father made prominent here?

J.T. Matthew touches John here. The utter failure of Israel, as shown in the earlier part of the gospel, necessitated the revelation of God. His counsels were in question, and the accomplishment of these required a full manifestation of what He is. To come out in this way was ever in God's heart, but the breakdown of Israel afforded the opportunity for it. Stupendous truths are grouped together here. God's sovereign right to heaven and earth; the revelation of the things the Lord had spoken of to babes; all things being delivered by the Father into the hands of the Son; the Father revealed by the Son; and Christ as the One who is centre and model for all. The whole moral system which God had designed is evolved from what is presented here.

E.J.W. This was a sorrowful moment in the course of the Lord's service here, when He had to pronounce woes upon the localities in which most of His mighty works had been done. No doubt these cities represent the order and system of things which

subsist in connection with man in responsibility and the world. The Lord describes them as a generation wholly incapable of appreciating the greatest testimony possible for God to give. From this generation and order of things the Lord now turns away, and, in spirit, retires into an order of things entirely new and different in character, in which all proceeds from and depends upon divine Persons instead of upon what man is.

J.S.G. The chapter brings before us an exceedingly solemn moment and state of things. There is, first, the breakdown of John; next, the unbelief of the nation; and then the woes pronounced by the Lord upon it.

E.J.W. And the Lord retires into another order of things, one which subsists upon entirely different principles. It is not now a question if Israel or man, as such, will receive and appreciate the divine thoughts presented in Christ or not, but of the Father's sovereignty in grace in revealing these things to the "babes"; next, all things being given into the hands of the Son, and the Son revealing the Father to whom He will; and then a generation coming into view to whom Christ is attractive, who leave the old order of things to come to Him, and participate in His rest in the new, and who learn from Him, and thus are formed morally after Him in the will of God, so as to be a wholly new generation, deriving its character from Christ.

READING MATTHEW 14:14 - 36

J.B. You were speaking of the greatness of Christ as coming out in chapter 12.

J.T. Yes; as naturally following on the position the Lord takes up in chapter 11. In chapter 12 He occupies the position David occupied as rejected by Saul, and the various occurrences and signs bring out what He was in His greatness. He was Lord of the sabbath, and a greater than Jonas or Solomon; and yet both in the case of Jonas and Solomon the Gentiles had been affected. The Ninevites had repented at the preaching of Jonas, and the queen of the south had come to hear Solomon's wisdom. These facts would only throw more into evidence the thorough blindness of Israel. And another thing helps in regard to chapter 12; the Lord brings forward the relative value of man; not now of Israel as such, but of man. "How much then is a man better than a sheep?" Matthew 12:12. In view of what God was about to establish in connection with man, I think we can see the importance of that.

E.J.W. It is noticeable that the Spirit comes prominently into view in chapter 12 in connection with the kingdom of God being there; verse 28.

J.T. That is in keeping with His position at that time. There was the demonstration by power of the presence of the kingdom among them.

G.F.W. It is usually the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and there must be a point why it is the kingdom of God here.

J.T. The kingdom of God is ever the exercise of divine power here on earth for man; whereas the kingdom of heaven has reference to the presence of Christ in heaven as ruling those below. The power of the kingdom was exercised here on earth by Christ amidst Israel.

E.J.W. It is helpful to see the way the kingdom has been introduced first in testimony; its great power and its character were set forth in testimony by the Lord Himself in His ministry.

R.S.S. In verse 26 the kingdom of Satan is spoken of and in verse 28 the kingdom of God.

J.T. The kingdom of God is, according to this passage, as we have been saying, the exercise of divine power in man for the good of men, as against what is adverse to them. I suppose the kingdom of Satan is that which is recognisable by all of us as present here on earth, a sphere dominated by him.

J.S.G. Does the Lord not only show the foolishness of what they have said, but the wonderful fact that God had come in and was delivering man out of the condition in which he had placed himself?

J.T. And the fact that the Lord cast out demons proved the superiority of the kingdom of God; that is, it was greater than the kingdom of Satan, as He goes on to show. "How can anyone enter into the house of the strong man and plunder his goods, unless first he bind the strong man? and then he will plunder his house", Matthew 12:29. That is, the testimony of this chapter is that the Lord was in the midst of Israel in the exercise of the power of the kingdom, and that it was such a power as was superior to the power of Satan's kingdom, in which the Jews really were. There was not only the presence of the Messiah personally amongst them, but also the presence and activity of the kingdom in the power of the Spirit, and they rejected both. The Lord adds, "whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one", Matthew 12:32. What has struck me lately is the inveterate activity of the enemy to set aside, in

one way or another, the presence and power of the Spirit here on earth.

J.S.G. Speaking against the Spirit rendered them hopeless. Morally speaking, God, having sent the Spirit, can do nothing more.

J.T. So that the attack on the Spirit is all the more serious. The Lord distinguishes between speaking a word against the Son of man and speaking against the Spirit. The Spirit has been pleased to come into the lowliest of circumstances in connection with the testimony of God's goodness to man, and so is exposed to the attack of the enemy, but there is no forgiveness for those who speak against Him.

J.S.G. Even though man placed himself under Satan's power, God could come in; but if man refuses that, he renders himself hopeless.

J.T. Following on this, the Lord deliberately refuses all natural relationships. His mother and brethren come; "Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren are standing without, seeking to speak to thee. But he answering said to him that spoke to him, Who is my mother, and who are my brethren? And, stretching out his hand to his disciples, he said, Behold my mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother", Matthew 12:47 - 50. That defines the position very clearly, that those whom the Lord owns now as in relation to Him are those who do the will of His Father.

.J.S.G. A moral link. The chapter starts with the sabbath, and that was an important thing in connection with God's covenant, and it ends with the Lord refusing to recognise any natural link. There must be now a moral link, and He would recognise nothing else.

J.T. Then that gives rise to chapter 13. He has

to produce something for God where there was nothing.

J.S.G. Really the Lord's ministry was not to seek to find anything in man, but to sow seed for the glory of God.

J.T. He came in testimony among men so that it might be brought to light that there was nothing there. The earlier chapters bring this before us. There was nothing for God, and so He takes the place of a Sower so as to produce something.

J.S.G. I think the presentation of the Lord in the chapter as a Sower is a very important point. A prophet came to recall the people, but the Lord takes the place of a Sower. There was seed to sow which would produce fruit that would be for God's pleasure and glory.

J.T. I have heretofore wondered why the kingdom in Matthew is presented first in chapter 13, and again developed after chapter 16, and it occurs to me that the kingdom in chapter 13 is connected with the Lord directly; it is what He brings to pass, and the corruption that ensues is the result of the antagonism of the enemy to the Lord personally. The Lord's enemy sows the tares, and the result is corruption. Whereas the parables of the kingdom after chapter 16 connect it with human administration. In chapter 16 the assembly being introduced, the Lord says to Peter, "I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven". Matthew 16:19. Peter could not administer the kingdom here unless he had the assembly, that against which the gates of hell could not prevail, as it were, to support it.

Ques. What is the connection between the church and the kingdom?

J.T. The connection, as I see it, is that the kingdom in its present form depends on the presence of the assembly here. In a sense, the relation of the assembly to the kingdom is analogous to the Lord's

relation to it when He was down here. The existence of the kingdom depended on His presence here. Now the Spirit is here in the assembly, and so we have the kingdom.

J.S.G. And would you not say that while that is true morally the assembly is inside the kingdom?

J.T. Yes. It is a narrower circle, but the Spirit's power is in it. The kingdom is dependent on the assembly in a way, in the sense in which a kingdom is dependent on its capital. Take Rome the empire began with the city, and that may be taken as a figure. Things work out from the capital. Looking at it from the opposite point of view, the capital is supported by the power of the kingdom, but at the same time vitality is in the city -- the assembly.

J.S.G. That will be the principle throughout the world to come. Everything will go out from the centre. But while everything will go out from the centre, of course all will revert to the centre.

J.T. The presence of the kingdom here depends on the presence of the assembly here. The assembly is the vessel of the Spirit. It is built by the Lord on a sure foundation (Himself), and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

R.S.S. Why is the expression "kingdom of heaven" found exclusively in Matthew?

J.T. In most of the writings to the Jewish Christians heaven is prominent, and for the reason that naturally their affections would be centred on what had been established in relation to the earth.

R.S.S. The idea was to draw them away from that.

J.T. Yes.

E.J.W. In that connection it is significant that in Luke, which is written for Gentiles, it is the kingdom of God. Gentiles needed specially to be led into the knowledge of God.

J.T. Take the light in Genesis 1:3, "And God

said, Let there be light and there was light". It does not say there what the light was, or whence it came. The necessity for the light existed, and God commanded the light. Christ here on earth was the light. When a man is in darkness, he needs light; what kind of light it may be is not the point for the moment. But on the fourth day of Genesis 1 two great lights are made and placed in the heavens; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser to rule the night; showing, I think, that when God has established His order, the source of light and rule is in the heavens. I think that corresponds with the teaching of the kingdom in Matthew.

J.B. You take that in a moral way.

J.T. I have no doubt at all that Genesis 1 indicates the work of God in man's soul; so that on the fourth day in the experience of your soul you come to recognise a great light in the heavens, and it regulates everything. The lights were to be for signs and for seasons. I think that points to Christ in heaven. We must look to Him for the introduction of eras and seasons, not to developments here on earth. What is in the heavens regulates everything. You can never understand prophecy by developments existing at the present moment.

J.B. Is there not more thought of the Spirit of God in the kingdom of God than in the kingdom of heaven?

J.T. As we have been saying, in this gospel the kingdom of God is connected with the activity of the Spirit -- the kingdom of heaven clearly points to rule being established in heaven.

E.J.W. It is interesting to see that when the Spirit of God presents the truth to people He presents it as adapted to their state of mind and soul. The Jew needed the truth of the kingdom presented to him in a certain form adapted to his form of thought. He was attached to the earth, but God would elevate

his thoughts to heaven and what was to be exercised and administered by Christ from heaven. But the Gentile was sunk in darkness and ignorance of God, and the gospel by Luke is written especially for the Gentile; what becomes prominent there is the kingdom of God. God came near to man so that He might be known by man.

J.S.G. Which is necessary for us to learn first?

J.T. I think it is the kingdom of God, because that is what man requires primarily. He is suffering from the power of evil, and the kingdom of God delivers him. It is subsequent to that that he discovers that he has need of a guiding light in heaven.

J.S.G. That is clear. The first thing he must know is deliverance from the kingdom of darkness.

R.S.S. I suppose the reason the kingdom is established at all is in view of the satanic power that exists.

J .T. I think so. The passage quoted in chapter 12 shows clearly that it is the Stronger than he that enters into the strong man's house to spoil his goods. That shows it was because of the presence of the power of Satan that the necessity for the kingdom arose.

E.J.W. When you see that, it is easy to understand that the announcement of the kingdom is gospel -- it is good news.

J.B. God coming out in grace and power.

E.J.W. What came out was not only that there was grace, but there was power in activity corresponding to the grace, to set aside the power of evil by which man was dominated.

J.B. I was thinking of the Acts; the Lord spoke to the disciples the things concerning the kingdom of God.

J.S.G. To return to the parable of the sower; there you get largely the ministry of Christ here on earth.

J.T. I think so; the first three parables connect the introduction of the kingdom with the Lord's work. The three closing parables (these were spoken in the house to the disciples) have reference to the assembly.

J.S.G. Leaving out the parable of the sower, the Lord, in the next three, gives a sketch of what the kingdom would be outwardly; and then in the next two, what the Lord finds dear to His heart; and in the last parable, what is the great service at the present time. The servant has to get the good fish out from the bad, and to prepare them for shipment as it were. They have no place in this present world.

J.T. Leaving aside for the moment the corrupting influence of the devil, the production of such a thing as the kingdom in this chapter is a wonderful thing. The Son of man sows and all this comes to pass as the result.

J.S.G. People often say what is the good of the subject of the kingdom? That is because there is undue occupation with the way it is presented in the first four parables here; and forgetting that there is the true thing, as seen in the last three, which is dear to the heart of Christ. The important point of the chapter is the last three parables.

J.T. If you did not have the last three you would be hopeless, because you have a leavened mass, and an overshadowing tree which could not be of God. The last three are the secret; they were spoken only to the disciples.

J.S.G. In connection with the leavened mass, is not important to remember that leaven is not necessarily what men would look upon as something wicked? It is largely the thought of the human element working. What has really corrupted God's things is not what is outwardly so bad, but the mind of man working in divine things, giving a human colour to what is of God.

E.J.W. One set of parables here gives us what is under man's eye, and the other what is under God's eye, and the important thing is to have before us what is under God's eye. What is under man's eye is a great formal system, but what is under God's eye is that which is of Himself.

J.T. And that is where the encouragement lies. The disciples would be the interested ones, and we can only hope that there are disciples at the present time who are interested; by such, the ministry of the truth of the assembly is always appreciated. There are a great many amongst God's people who have very little ear for it, but the encouraging point of the chapter is that there is the vital and valuable thing, and the Lord speaks of that to the disciples in the house.

W.H.F. Does not that constitute the kingdom under the eye of God? The genuine thing exists at the present moment.

J.T. Yes. Mr. Stoney used to dwell on these three closing parables; I recall reading his remarks as to how little they were understood. It is only interested souls that get light about the assembly.

G.F.W. Is there any way in which these three closing parables typify the remnant of the Jews, or is it the present period?

J.T. It is the present period. This chapter is the beginning of the new order of things which the Lord has inaugurated by sowing; but what He sowed resulted in a huge public thing in which there is nothing outwardly to indicate that it is of God. In the beginning of the chapter it says, "And great crowds were gathered together to him, so that going on board ship himself he sat down, and the whole crowd stood on the shore", Matthew 13:2, Taking up a position on the sea would indicate that He was having to do with the whole of humanity.

G.F.W. Would the last three parables indicate

that the kingdom goes on to the end, including the remnant of Israel?

J.T. It is the history of the kingdom during the time of the Lord's absence that is in view, but the results lead on to "the completion of the age", and hence the remnant is involved. Those who select the fish taken in the net are concerned only with the good; the angels deal with the wicked. The Son of man sends His angels, and they take out of His kingdom things which offend. The kingdom goes on, but the offending things are removed.

J.S.G. The period goes on to the public manifestation in more than one instance in the chapter, but those that form the assembly are really the saints ("the righteous") that are spoken of. The explanation of the parable of the net has reference to the future, but the parable itself is for the present, and contains a word for us. We are to be occupied with the good.

J.T. It would not be characteristic of Matthew to introduce the heavenly side, because with him it is a question of the continuance of the government of God here in the absence of Christ. We know from other scriptures that the assembly will actually be removed before the Lord appears; and so, the kingdom out of which the wicked are taken, is connected with others. The kingdom is established in Christ in heaven; His being made Lord has reference to all the earth; and His rule, once inaugurated, does not cease until its end is reached. So the Revelation may be inserted here as showing how the scene is cleared of evil when the kingdom appears publicly. What God sets up never passes away, although it may change its character.

J.S.G. The kingdom here is spoken of like the world in John; what is not of God goes out. Christ must become the centre for all, or else they must disappear.

J.T. In Revelation 10 Christ claims all below. At the present time men claim the earth, but the testimony is that all is Christ's, and the assembly bears testimony to this fact at the present moment.

J.S.G. We bear testimony by not being overcome by the world, but by overcoming. The world is ours, but the danger is of our being possessed by the world.

R.S.S. I suppose the beginning of the next chapter would show that someone else than Christ was in authority; that is, Herod.

J.T. It was a sign to the Lord, "And Jesus, having heard it, went away thence by ship to a desert place apart", Matthew 14:13. It is not the nation here, but the power of Herod, the false king.

Before we pass from chapter 13, we might look at what the Lord said about the scribe instructed into the kingdom of heaven; "every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old", Matthew 13:52. One feels one would like to be that. A man of this kind is very interesting. If you have any taste for "things new and old" he can interest you from his treasure.

R.S.S. What are old things?

J.T. Things that have relation to Israel. All are now found in a man that, is discipled to the kingdom of the heavens.

W.H.F. "New" would refer to Christianity.

J.S.G. In chapter 14 we are taught that they find everything in the Person of Christ.

J.T. It is a question of education in view of chapter 16. No believer is equal to the truth of the assembly unless he goes through, in his experience, chapters 14 and 15. I think that the first thing we learn is the sufficiency of Christ; that is important if you are going to be here in testimony. The disciples say, "send the multitude away", but the Lord says, "They need not depart; give ye them

to eat" Matthew 14:16. So in result it comes out that the Lord is able to make the loaves and fishes suffice for the multitude.

J.S.G. "Give ye them".

G.F.W. What is the significance of the five loaves -- human weakness?

J.T. I think five is symbolical of what is small; "I had rather speak five words with my understanding ... than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue", 1 Corinthians 14:19 The Lord puts the obligation on them. The Lord is anticipating. As if He were saying. 'I am going away, and you are going to be here, and you have to learn that you are to help men'.

J.S.G. There was abundance because God was with them, though they were weak as far as they were concerned.

J.T. This gospel insists on what the saints should be, and what they should do, in the absence of Christ. This miracle was to instruct them as to how they might depend on Him in seeking to administer for Him in His absence. However little we may have, the Lord is able to make it abound. They had five loaves and two fishes, and the five thousand were fed, and there were twelve baskets left over.

T.A. Do the twelve baskets set forth the twelve tribes?

J.T. I suppose they set forth the abundance of administration. I take twelve as symbolic of administrative power in man.

J.S.G. It is well to compare the two feedings, here and in chapter 15. I have taken the first to refer more to the beginning, to the twelve apostles. I have thought that the second feeding sets forth how the Lord can come in in a divine way, though everything in connection with man may break up. The seven baskets in chapter 15 were larger baskets. In the early days there were twelve apostles; a wonderful

moment! Now we have none, but the Lord shows in the second feeding that there is no change with Him. He comes in and cares for men's souls.

J.T. And I have no doubt that the seven baskets in chapter 15 point to the perfection of the Spirit's power remaining here.

I suppose the next lesson that comes to light in this chapter is the Lord going on high. "And immediately he compelled the disciples to go on board ship, and to go on before him to the ether side, until he should have dismissed the crowds. And having dismissed the crowds, he went up into the mountain apart to pray", Matthew 14:22. It is a very great thing to see that the Lord is on high for us, for we must bear in mind that all the way through it is a matter of souls being fitted for the testimony. It is not a matter of feeding the disciples, but rather that they should learn how to feed others. Now they are going to encounter rough seas. The Lord says as it were, 'This is what you will meet with when I am not here. You will have to do things when I leave and I want to show you how to do them. Now you are going to encounter rough seas, and I am going on high and I shall be praying for you'. The mountain indicates the Lord's present position in relation to those who are contending with the winds and waves.

J.S.G. The secret of their success would be unseen.

J.T. Yes. This chapter is not simply for ministers and preachers, but for those who are to form the assembly as the pillar and base of the truth.

J.S.G. In Scripture are not all God's people spoken of as servants? Speaking of certain people as servants exclusively has done a lot of harm amongst us.

J.T. I never feel free to call myself one as distinct from other saints.

W.H.F. The fourth watch indicates His coming to Israel.

J.T. And what comes to light is that He is recognised by them. In chapter 11 He speaks of Himself as the Son, but now they recognise Him. "Truly thou art God's Son". Matthew 14:33.

G.F.W. Do those in the boat typify the remnant?

J.T. Yes. The boat was fitted for the water; that was Judaism; but the Lord was in a new position. He was outside of Israel, but superior to all the power of evil. He is outside the whole order of things in connection with this world, and Peter joins Him there. Peter represents the affection in which the assembly is formed.

W.H.F. I was thinking that the fourth watch is connected with Israel. The third watch would be the one in which the Morning Star appears, and is more connected with Christ coming for the assembly. The Lord divided the present period into four watches -- even, midnight, cock crowing and morning; so the fourth watch evidently refers to Christ's public coming.

G.F.W. Would it be that Peter going to the Lord on the water represents the moral action of the saints at the present time?

J.T. It represents the soul who has affection for Christ, and as seeing Him outside of everything here, but superior to it, wishes to be with Him. "Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee". Matthew 14:28. The Lord going into the ship, no doubt, refers to His coming to the remnant, so that at the end He is known to them as Son of God. But Peter had an experience which those who remained in the ship did not have.

R.S.S. What would be in their mind when they said, "Of a truth thou art the Son of God"? Matthew 14:33.

J.T. I suppose what had been indicated in the Old Testament that Messiah should be God's Son. Nathanael recognised Him as Son of God. The

confession is not -- 'Thou art the Son of the living God' (that was a distinctive revelation from the Father), but "Thou art the Son of God". John 1:49. Seeing Him superior to the elements of opposition induced the confession.

E.J.W. That was one idea connected with the title Son of God -- His absolute superiority to all the powers of evil here. In Romans 1:4 He is "marked out Son of God in power ... by resurrection of the dead".

G.W.H. Was it the thought of Peter that he wished to be superior to everything here?

J.T. What we see in Peter is affection for Christ, and that is what one would like to see in everyone. "Bid me come unto thee". Matthew 14:28. There was affection and there was confidence. Peter felt the Lord could support him. Be the circumstances what they may, you want to be with Him.

R.S.S. What do the waters signify?

J.T. I think they signify men dominated by the powers of evil. I think the boat is in the midst of that which is unfriendly, and is capable of being affected by what is against Christ -- the winds. The winds suggest satanic power; they were contrary. Who was contrary to Christ? Chapter 13 shows that Satan is: "An enemy hath done this". Matthew 13:28. He does something to nullify what Christ does. And those in the ship were Christ's disciples, and He was praying for them; but Satan was against them, and so the boat was tossed by the waves.

R.S.S. Then the wind acts on the water; that is, on man, on people.

J.T. Through them opposition comes. The beasts of the field do not harm the people of God specially.

R.S.S. The question has been asked as to what was the character of the distance between Peter and the Lord.

J.T. I think the Lord left the disciples in the

boat. He did not take them out of Judaism in His dying; but in the power of the Spirit they should leave it afterwards to join Him in resurrection. I doubt not but that the boat was the order of things that had been established, that fitted into the mass of humanity, but the Lord had left that through death and took up a new place in resurrection as superior to satanic power, and the disciples had to learn that they were to join Him there. Historically this never came out fully till Acts 9.

R.S.S. Was not the Lord there figuratively superior to death, and have we not to join Him beyond death?

J.T. That is true, but the question is what the water symbolises; I think it is that which Satan can act on, and what we have to overcome.

J.S.G. It is important to notice that at first Peter did not look at the water but at Christ. When he looks at the water he begins to sink.

T.A. If you look at Christ, you can walk on the water.

J.T. The apprehension of Christ as Son of God enables us to abandon whatever we may have been depending upon in this world. Henceforth we live by faith, the faith of the Son of God.

W.H.C. In the thought of the ship and the Lord walking on the water, do you get the idea of the old order and the new?

J.T. I think so. Judaism was the old order, but Jesus was leaving this to take up a new position in resurrection. Judaism was an enclosure that fitted in among the nations, but these could be influenced and used against the saints. The Acts show this clearly.

E.J.W. Judaism afforded a measure of protection for those who were in it, against certain evils practised among the heathen: idolatry, depravity, etc.

L.T.F. Does the boat represent that for the Jew?

J.S.G. I think the boat is connected with the remnant.

A.C. Supposing one left the boat and went forward to join Christ, would not all the power of the enemy used against us mean death to us, unless He put forth His hand and drew us to His side?

J.T. It would, no doubt.

E.J.W. Moral death, as represented in masses of men capable, as apart from Christ, of being influenced by the enemy.

R.S.S. The Lord becomes the attracting power that draws us, and that is the main point. According to what is natural, we gravitate downward, but we have found another attraction which counteracts that.

J.T. How complete the deliverance was in the case of Saul of Tarsus when the Son of God was revealed to him! He never went back to the boat afterwards.

L.T.F. Is that like going forth to Him without the camp?

J.T. In a way, "bearing his reproach". Hebrews 13:13. But I think the point to be learned in this chapter is that the Lord is outside of all here, and He has become of interest to your soul. You may not be outside of all, but you would like to be with Christ. The consequences may be terrible, but affection says, "If it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water"; and the Lord says, "Come". Matthew 14:28,29.

W.H.F. It is like the two disciples in John 1. "Where dwellest thou?" They want to be with Him.

E.J.W. On the other hand the consequences set forth in Peter are very blessed. Peter enters into the sense of victory and supremacy with Christ. This sets forth Christianity in a very wonderful way, and in a way we do not know much about.

J.T. I do not know that there is any experience

so precious as the experience of knowing Christ as sustaining you in superiority to every adverse power.

W.H.C. Is it priesthood?

J.T. That is what it is.

G.F.W. Would walking in separation today answer to that in a practical way?

J.T. Yes. You find the antagonism of Satan all the time if you are true to Christ. Affection induces separation. The heart is separate on account of Christ being away. You must be separate from that from which He is separated. The real point here is, "Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water". Matthew 14:28. Then the Lord shows how you will be supported. You can hardly explain how it happens, but it does happen.

R.S.S. "There hath one object been disclosed on earth that might commend the place; but now 'tis gone: Jesus is with the Father".

READING MATTHEW 16:13 - 28

R.S.S. Did you say yesterday that in these chapters we have been considering that the greatness of the Person is made prominent first of all, and then in the later chapters, which you mentioned, it was rather what He accomplishes?

J.T. Yes. His greatness is seen in the things which He accomplishes, and it seems as if too much stress cannot be laid on the importance of the education that is needed on our part, so as to take our place in that which the Lord intended should supersede Israel here on earth, till the introduction of the kingdom in a public way. I think any thoughtful person will recognise that it requires very great divine training to fit us to occupy such a position, for all the power of evil would necessarily be against us, even as it was against Christ. I think chapters 14 and 15 give us the education.

W.H.C. Did you say the first thing was to be with Him?

J.T. Peter says, "Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water". Matthew 14:28. This indicates affection. Affection in that way is the moral starting-point. You desire to maintain things for One whom you love. But then He knows what you will have to contend with, and He prepares you for it.

R.S.S. And that is not simply in view of the purpose of God in a coming day, but for the present day.

J.T. I think Matthew presents it more for the present; that is, to prepare the disciples for the maintenance of the testimony during His absence.

W.H.C. He called them "that they might be with him and that he might send them to preach". Mark 3:14.

J.T. That was in Mark, showing that the education in Mark is to make preachers of them, but in Matthew

it is to make stones of them, that which is capable of supporting. The allusion to David in chapter 12 is instructive, as showing the place the Lord occupies as rejected by Israel; those that followed David became the mightiest warriors of which any account is given in the annals of war. There is no such account recorded anywhere as that of the mighty men of David.

R.S.S. That is the result of being "with him".

J.T. Yes. They were a despicable lot and nothing in themselves, but they came to David in the hold and he became their captain, and the result was that they became the greatest warriors of any in history. Safety lay with David, showing how that henceforth the power of God was with him. There was no protection with Saul. Protection was with the rejected king. See 1 Samuel 22:23.

P.A.E.S. Was the education then in view of something being accomplished, but now in view of something already accomplished, but to be sustained? What have you in your mind when you speak of education?

J.T. See the Lord's works, and how He performs them as recorded in these chapters. The disciples were to do these things. The Lord knew they could not do them then, but He intimates that they would have to do them subsequently, and He shows them how.

R.S.S. He walks on the water, and we are to do the same.

J.T. Yes.

W.H.C. I suppose Stephen walked on the water and crossed it; he did not fall as Peter did on looking at the winds and waves.

J.T. A very good instance, because the power of Satan was there acting in man against a witness for Christ, and he does not flinch for a moment. He is

superior to it. I suppose Stephen is the characteristic witness in Christianity.

L.D.T. What does feeding the multitude refer to now?

J.T. I think the thought is that there should be that in the assembly which would meet the need of man. The Lord says: "Give ye them to eat". Matthew 14:16. The house of God was to be a place of plenty, which should he administered to others.

L.T.F. Did He multiply the loaves and fishes in their hands?

J.T. They had that much, and the Lord takes them and increases them. He gave to the disciples, and they to the multitude.

J.S.G. What they gave had passed through His hands.

J.T. Quite so. He gave the food to the disciples and they to the multitude. What the disciples had could not meet the need of the multitude: they said as to the loaves and fishes, "What are they among so many?" John 6:9. It is only as Christ takes things up that they become enlarged.

J.S.G. All the blessedness that God has brought in reaches man through the saints.

J.T. That is what comes out in Acts; the administration of the divine bounty is through the saints. That is what Matthew prepares us for. The disciples were to be the administrators of divine bounty here in the absence of Christ. The multiplication of the five loaves and two fishes really points to the coming of the Spirit. His coming in amongst the saints involved an infinite supply. There is no limit to it. Looking at it in that light and comparing our present position with what existed at Pentecost, you can see the poverty of the present moment, so that you are concerned about it and humbled before God.

J.S.G. I suppose the point in Luke in the same connection as we have had is more how they are able to bring it in. In Luke 9 they return and tell the Lord all that they have done, and the Lord at once takes them aside in the wilderness and there is a multitude, and He says: "Give ye them to eat". Luke 9:13. At once they feel they cannot possibly do it. Is not that an important point? They had done a great deal, but they are not able to do what the Lord wanted them to do, and that is to dispense all the blessedness of God here; the Lord shows how that is brought about. What they have is passed through His hands and there is abundance.

J.T. And it may be a further help if we look at the way Mark presents it. See Mark 6:30,31. "And the apostles are gathered together to Jesus. And they related to him all things, both what they had done and what they had taught. And he said to them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place and rest a little". It seems to me, that they had been successful in their service, and were engaged with it, and now the Lord puts them to the test as to what they could do for men. He says, "Give ye them to eat. And they say to him, Shall we go and buy two hundred denarii worth of bread and give them to eat?" And then (verse 46) He sends the crowd away: "And, having dismissed them, he departed into the mountain to pray. And when evening was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone upon the land". I think in both of these cases the Lord puts them to the test. Having assumed to be successful ministers, He now tells them to feed the multitude; and then He puts them to the test as to whether they can cross this stormy world in their own strength, and in both cases they discover their utter inability. They find it is through His aid that both things are accomplished. That is an important thing for a minister. It is for the apostles

here, but, in principle, it is also aid for ministers and preachers.

J.B. Are not these two things the principal things: the opposition of the enemy and the feeding of the multitude?

J.T. I think there are two main points: that the saints should know how they are to be here on earth in the administration of divine bounty to meet man's need, and then they are to know how they are to be sustained in the presence of antagonism.

R.S.S. The one is negative and the other positive.

J.T. And as a matter of fact we can easily recognise that the assembly has failed in both these points.

E.H.T. Would you not say that the most important point at the present time is to get what you have from the Lord?

J.T. But we should see that while it comes from His hands, yet it was to be administered through men here on earth.

W.H.C. Does the apostle not speak of the two things in Galatians 3:5: "He therefore who ministers to you the Spirit, and works miracles among you, is it on the principle of works of law, or of the report of faith?"

J.T. There was the ministration of the Spirit in connection with his ministry, and the overthrowing of evil at the same time.

P.A.E.S. Do we understand that Christ was not only competent to put out evil, but to introduce what was of God by the Spirit?

J.T. I think it is a very helpful thought that our brother points out. Greater things should be done by the apostles than Christ Himself had done, because of His going to the Father.

J.B. They were taken up for this great purpose.

J.T. That covers what has been exercising many of us -- what is the divine mode of administering things

here? It is through the saints, and to refuse it is only setting aside the truth of the Scriptures.

P.A.E.S. The fact of administering it through the saints does not minimise the fact that it is divine administration.

J.T. Everything depends on Christ. Here He takes the loaves and fishes and looks up to heaven and blesses. In His hands it is sufficient to feed the multitude, but the food reaches them actually through the hands of the disciples.

J.S.G. It is impossible for it to come in any other way. Of course every person would regard the Lord as the source, but clearly it comes through the saints. But if you consider what goes out to men now, I think there is nothing more humbling. Nevertheless, the saints are here so that all the blessedness of heaven may be brought before men.

J.T. And this principle is sedulously adhered to in the course of the testimony in the Acts. When Philip went to Samaria, and preached Christ, many believed, but they did not get the Spirit apart from Peter and John. Then in chapter 9 the Lord appears to Saul of Tarsus in the way of light, but He immediately sends Ananias to Saul, and the same thing takes place. The Holy Spirit is given to Saul in connection with Ananias. Then in chapter 10 although Cornelius was a pious man and had light, yet the angel directs him to send to Joppa to Simon, who, he says, "shall tell thee words whereby thou shalt be saved". Acts 11:14. And as Peter was preaching the Spirit fell upon them. So that all through, the divine mode is adhered to.

W.C.R. You can see that also in Acts 19, when Paul went to Ephesus.

J.T. There were twelve men at Ephesus who, although they had not a full gospel, had believed on Christ. After the apostle preached to them they received the Spirit in connection with Paul.

E.J.W. Is there any instance recorded in Scripture of a departure from this; that is, the grace of God being received through the saints?

J.S.G. It appears to me it is important to remember that God gives principles, or rules, which are for us to observe, but you can never in any way bind God. God is sovereign.

J.T. No, and we are to adhere to the rules, whatever He may do.

J.S.G. I have often referred to the Old Testament times. God took up the people of Israel. They were placed in the most wonderful grace. They were God's centre here on earth, but you see continually how God stepped outside. God wrought in a sovereign way, but His people must always respect the principles or rules that He has been pleased to establish.

E.J.W. I am not aware of any instance recorded in the Acts or epistles of a person receiving the grace of God apart from human administration.

J.T. Apart from those who formed the assembly.

W.H.C. When a certain brother was in this country, he was opposed to this thought, and I asked him if he could recall any instance when anyone had received the Spirit apart from coming in contact with Christians where the Spirit dwelt, and he admitted that he did not know of an instance.

P.A.E.S. Do you not think that the failure on the part of the saints to apprehend God's method of administration would account, in a large measure, for the disastrous state of things today?

J.T. It does, so I feel encouraged to turn to Matthew as the ecclesiastical gospel. It shows what the Lord intended to leave here till His return, and He did not intend that this should be departed from. He knew it would be, but the responsibility remains with us of adhering to it.

P.A.E.S. The passage in Philippians 4:13 is very

encouraging, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power".

J.T. No true Christian would care to act independently of Christ even if he could; one who loved Him would not.

E.J.W. Nor in the least to obscure His personal glory.

R.S.S. I think a mistake people have made is that they have assumed that material distance alters things. They would have no difficulty in seeing that the disciples fed the multitude. Everybody accepts that; but now that the Lord is in heaven, not on earth, many think there is a difference in the mode of administration, as though a change has taken place because the Lord is in heaven.

E.J.W. As I understand things, there is, underlying this question the great principle and fact that all that was here in Christ for men when He was on earth is now here in the company that He formed and left. All the great principles of divine grace that came in and were active, and the power, too, in Him then, are here now, though not in exactly the same form. I think we find this principle in 1 John 4:12 - 14, "No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world". It has often been pointed out that in John's epistle there is seen in Christians that which is the answer to what we get in John's gospel in Christ personally. In John 1:18 it is, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". The passage I allude to in the epistle opens with the same statement, but what meets it now is His dwelling morally in those who have received "of

his Spirit". The divine idea is that what was here in Christ personally is now to be reproduced and continued here in His own, and then to go out from them in the way of testimony of grace to men, "we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world". 1 John 4:14. The Lord's words in John 20:21 - 23 are, I think, on the same principle.

J.T. The Lord said, "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father". John 14:9. What the Father is characteristically shone out in the works and ways of Christ, and so what Christ was here on earth is seen now in a company described in those verses in the epistle of John.

P.A.E.S. You do not exclude the thought that Christ is here?

J.T. No. But it is in that way that He is here. Christ is seen here in His characteristic features; that is, in public testimony in the activities of love and grace amongst us.

J.S.G. Thus the assembly is called "the Christ".

W.H.F. In Colossians 2:3 it speaks of the mystery, "in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge". It is not in whom.

J.T. That confirms the thought, too, because Christ is the wisdom of God; and when here wisdom was active in Him and the children of wisdom came to light; wisdom was justified of her children but now all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in the assembly.

D.B. Although ministry comes through the saints, yet we are not taught in any way to look to them.

J.T. The gospel announcement would not direct you to the saints, because the gospel is presented to man on the principle of faith. If it directed you to the saints it would be on the principle of sight, because you can see them; but it is presented to man on the principle of faith. But after you believe on Christ risen and glorified, you should be made

acquainted with the fact that the saints are here, and all the bounty of God is before us and administered in connection with them.

J.S.G. The humbling thing is that it is so little seen.

J.T. I suppose that when you announce the gospel now, you not only have to speak of Christ on the principle of faith, but the truth of the assembly has to be presented on the same principle, because there is no visible expression of it; whereas there was such at the outset.

J.S.G. That is where so many people have a difficulty. When the assembly is spoken of, they have so much thought about meetings, and what can be seen, and therefore they get into confusion.

J.T. If I had lived at Jerusalem in the days of the early chapters of the Acts, I should have had no difficulty in directing souls to that company.

J.S.G. Everything was there livingly.

J.T. The assembly was there as God had ordained it; but this cannot be said now.

J.B. Here in Matthew, do we not get God's thought and purpose in the assembly? You cannot set them aside.

J.T. Yes. Chapter 16 indicates the power that should be in it; "the gates of hades shall not prevail against it". Matthew 16:18. And when you come to chapter 18 it is the place of government -- Tell it to the church. The Lord does not say, 'Tell it to me'. This does not in any way detract from the Lord's glory, because He set the assembly here on earth for that purpose.

J.S.G. Mr. Stoney used to say to a person who wanted to break bread, 'Have you faith?' This was because of the state of things. It needs a special faith to go on in the light of the assembly.

J.T. Whereas at the outset, according to Acts 2:47, "the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved"; that is, there was the circle

there that He could add to, where there should be protection. There is not that now to be pointed to. In principle, however, it may be found among a few who seek to walk in righteousness together.

J.S.G. It exists today, in principle, as much as ever, but it needs that people should look upon it according to God and go on in the light of it.

E.J.W. I suppose the rule that now applies generally to what is connected with the assembly in its responsibility and practical form here would apply to this; that is, that in the state in which the assembly now is you can only take up things in principle, though none the less really.

P.A.E.S. I heard Mr. Raven once say that there was the assembly of God and that must be taken account of in an abstract way, but the path was distinctly individual.

J.T. Directly I meet a Christian I can fall back on the light of the assembly. Matthew 18:20 speaks of "two or three".

R.S.S. And if you meet one, you are two?

G.F.W. When you speak of anything being in the assembly you mean administratively, not vitally.

J.T. But it is here vitally.

G.F.W. What I mean by "vitally" is inherently. It does not have its origin here.

J.T. Quite so; but we must remember that the Spirit of God is a divine Person, and acts as a divine Person here on earth.

W.C.R. The Spirit administers the gifts.

J.S.G. All that is in heaven is here in the power of the Spirit.

W.H.C. The gospel is preached with the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

E.J.W. Yes, through human vessels. But I think we ought to be on our guard against taking up the assembly apart from Christ personally. You cannot do this really; that is to say, according to

God; but it can be done in the way in which we do things.

J.T. It can be done after the manner of Rome, and we are all liable to it. But so long as Christ is kept before souls as the Object of faith, you are perfectly safe in enlarging on the position of the assembly here as placed in administration. I regard the presence of the Holy Spirit here on earth as that which the enemy is endeavouring to obscure and set aside. If His presence cannot be denied, the effort will be to ignore His sovereign activities.

L.T.F. Is the assembly as seen in chapter 16 "the pillar and base of the truth"?

J.T. It is. But in regard to the Spirit, His dwelling here is marked by such obscure circumstances, so menial, so to speak, that He is exposed to the attack of the enemy. The Lord warned specially regarding sin against Him. Anyone speaking against the Spirit should never be forgiven.

W.C.R. The Spirit will bring all things to the remembrance of the disciples.

J.T. I think there is further education in chapter 15 and also in the first part of chapter 16 for those whom the Lord intended to occupy a place in the assembly. Chapter 14 is, perhaps, more important, but there is certainly education in chapter 15, that is also important, and further, there is instruction in the early part of chapter 16 which is necessary if we are to be here in the truth of the assembly.

R.S.S. What have you in your mind in chapter 16?

J.T. Certain things have come out in regard to defilement. It is not from without, but from within. The saints should be sensitive to this, they were to learn to distrust their own hearts. Then the case of the Syrophenician woman shows that the assembly should not be in any restricted way, but

the Gentile was to be included. In chapter 16 the question of leaven is important.

J.S.G. Is not the planting of the Father in chapter 15 also important?

J.T. Yes. "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up", Matthew 15:13.

J.S.G. Very necessary for the disciples to see that all this outward thing that men thought so much of was really nothing.

W.H.C. Do you say that in this way the disciples were to be fitted in order to stand?

J.T. That is what I think. It is so with us. We must go through this class of education, not to fit us for heaven, though divine education is necessary for that, but that we should occupy the most important position in the whole universe of God. The assembly is designed for that. If you are to occupy a place in the cabinet of any country special education is necessary. The saints really were to be the centre of government. The responsibility was to rest on them in the absence of Christ.

J.N.H. To live at the capital.

P.A.E.S. You mentioned three different stages of education -- chapters 14, 15 and 16.

J.T. In chapter 14 the feeding of the multitude and the walking on the water. In chapter 15 there is the question of defilement, and, as our brother pointed out, every plant not planted by the Father, should be rooted up. You need not fear human activity and pretension. Everything that is not of God shall be rooted up. And then you are to recognise the place of the Gentile. God is sovereign, and will include the Gentile. The Syrophenician woman comes into blessing on the ground of faith. In chapter 16 there is the question of leaven. We are not to be leavened by the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. We are to be frank and open with one another. Evidently the truth of the

assembly cannot he developed where there is hypocrisy.

P.A.E.S. And the Christian has to learn these now.

J.T. Yes, if he is to be in the assembly according to Christ.

W.H.C. For all that, it is necessary to know the Lord.

J.T. Therefore you can see how the Spirit presents the Lord in His personal greatness in chapters 11 and 12, and in chapter 14 you get Peter's affection for Him.

R.S.S. Therefore you get the question raised as to who He is. In chapter 12 "Is not this the Son of David?" Matthew 12:23. In chapter 13 "Is not this the carpenter's son?" Matthew 13:55. But the Lord Himself raised the question in chapter 16 as to who He was.

J.T. Yes, it is very striking that the Lord should raise the question. It is not a public question, but for the disciples. "Whom say ye that I am?" Matthew 16:15.

P.A.E.S. If they were properly educated they would recognise Him as the Son of the living God.

J.T. I think every person has to come to that point, not because the Scriptures record it, but because they have discovered it.

E.J.W. The way in which the Lord pronounces on certain people is very interesting. For instance, in chapter 11 He pronounced very solemnly on the cities where He had done His mighty works, and in John 6:36, He says, He has had certain things to say as to certain people. Here He pronounces on Peter, and says, "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven". Matthew 16:17. Peter being a representative man, it should come home to us as something exceedingly precious in connection with ourselves.

T.A. Would you not say that when the Lord says to the disciples, "Give ye them to eat", that He had

in His mind especially all that should be put under the authority of the apostles?

J.T. In the next chapter, where it is a question of the seven loaves and seven baskets, the feeding of the multitude would cover the present period. It refers to the fulness of the Spirit in the assembly.

The Lord says to Peter, "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven". Matthew 16:17. The Son of the living God involves a new system of things which would be characterised by life.

E.J.W. It is a climax of the soul's spiritual progress to come to know Him as Son of God. In John 9 the blind man was led on step by step until he reached the Son of God, as outside of man's world, but as the beginning and Head of the new divine system which comes into view in chapter 10.

J.T. It constitutes you a living stone when you reach that point.

W.H.C. So we understand that Peter would come into the new system?

J.T. He would be a part of the building. The assembly spoken of here is that which shall appear in the future as the heavenly city. What I would like to get clear is the greatness of the position. Anyone can see that the capital of any country is the prominent feature there, and if one is to shine, and occupy a place there in relation to the kingdom, he must, of necessity, be educated.

E.H.T. You realise the greatness of the person you represent.

J.T. And the greatness of the responsibility resting upon you, and upon that with which you are connected.

R.S.S. So that in England they always speak of going up to London.

P.A.E.S. By-and-by it will be "Jerusalem, the joy of the whole earth". Psalm 48:2.

R.S.S. People in Great Britain are educated for

statesmanship, whereas in this country people who develop certain abilities as they advance in life enter politics. There they are educated with the object in view of becoming statesmen. In regard to the assembly now, the Lord would educate us to fill the position we are to occupy.

J.T. That is, the Lord was the King when here, and He administered things. Now He says virtually to them, I am not going to remain, but the government has to go on. I can understand Peter and the others saying, 'How can we act for Christ?' And what that leads to is, "Learn from me". Matthew 11:29. Whatever it is that you are to do you must learn how to do it from Christ. In Mark it would be to know how to preach, but in Matthew it is to know how to administer. People attempt to administer in connection with discipline and the like, just when they are converted, but they cannot. They must learn from Christ.

R.S.S. And the first thing to learn from Christ is how to be "meek and lowly in heart". Matthew 11:29.

J.T. There is nothing that tests us so much as a case of discipline, and no one can deal with a case of that kind except a humble and broken man, that is, one who knows himself. "Lest thou also be tempted". Galatians 6:1. I think it is in seeing the function the Lord intended the assembly to fulfil during His absence that you can see the force of these chapters.

J.B. Is not the force of the revelation to us the same as to Peter, as to who Christ is?

J.T. As someone was saying, it is when you arrive at that point that the Lord pronounces you "blessed". Have we got there?

E.J.W. In connection with this education I think we might say there is such a thing as a point in the soul's history when the Lord can say to you, 'You are a stone', that is to say, when one receives from Christ the consciousness of being of the same order

spiritually as Himself; and, therefore, spiritually suitable to be a part of that building which is formed on Him.

J.T. It is noticeable that in John's gospel, where the Lord gives Peter a name, it is simply, "thou shalt be called Cephas". John 1:42. It was no question of what Peter was intrinsically. It is a question of the Lord as last Adam having title to give names. But here it is, "thou art Peter". Matthew 16:18. He was that in virtue of his confession.

W.H.C. The revelation constituted him that.

P.A.E.S. What are we to understand by that?

J.T. Peter means stone, as you know. The Lord does not say, 'Thy name shall be called Peter'. That is John's line. Here it is the Lord recognising what the Father had done. What had taken place in Peter was the Father's work; "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven". Matthew 16:17.

P.A.E.S. Is that continued? I refer to 1 Peter 2:4, "To whom coming, as unto a living stone".

J.T. That is designated of those who grow up to salvation. It is important to see that there is a new starting point in this chapter and this starting point does not originate with Christ, but with the Father. I think the Lord was here in perfect dependence, and now that Peter makes this confession the Lord accepts it as a new point of departure; henceforth they were not to speak to anyone of Him as the Christ. He must die.

E.J.W. The fact of a new beginning and order of things coming in seems to be indicated in the way in which various localities come into view in these chapters. In chapter 15 it is first Jerusalem, then Tyre and Sidon, and lastly Galilee. The thought occurs to me that this indicates the course of God's public ways in connection with Christ. Then in this chapter the Lord goes to Caesarea Philippi; a place

distinct from those in view in chapter 15, and outside the boundaries of Israel proper. It is here that the first full and clear light regarding the assembly is given.

J.T. And that coincides with the historical development of the assembly. The foundation feature of the truth of the assembly, in its full worldwide character, as including the Jew and the Gentile, is seen in Acts 9. The Lord appeared to Saul outside of Jewish territory; not at Jerusalem, but outside of Damascus, and it resulted in Saul apprehending Him as Son of God. From that point you can date the assembly as presented in Matthew.

E.J.W. Acts 9 is also the commencement, as far as Scripture records, I think, of the preaching of the Son of God.

R.S.S. The question was raised as to whether the way in which Peter was constituted a stone, that is, by the Father's revelation to him, is continued?

J.T. Do you mean that the Father makes a revelation to each Christian? I would not be prepared to say that. I think this is the distinctive starting point of the assembly, and the Lord accepts it as such; but there is that which is analogous to it with each of us. Each Christian must come to the point where he recognises Christ as the living Stone, One outside of everything here, and the One on whom all that is for God rests. You are not resting your hopes on anything in this world. There is no moral foundation to anything we see here.

P.A.E.S. How is he brought to that point?

J.T. According to 1 Peter 2:2 - 5, he is exhorted, as a new-born babe, to desire the pure mental milk of the word that he might grow up unto salvation. "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men hut chosen of God, and precious, ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house,

an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ". I think that is the order of the development of the truth in the Christian at the present time. It is by the Spirit we apprehend Christ as the Son of God.

W.H.C. Do you think anybody could have any vital connection with the assembly apart from the knowledge of Christ as Son of God by the Spirit?

J.T. Of course directly a man receives the Spirit he is in the assembly looked at from the divine side, but it is another thing to be in it in his affections.

E.J.W. There is such a thing recognised in Scripture as being in divine things consciously; indeed this is constantly in view in Scripture.

J.T. And for that you must have grown. A Christian grows up into things.

J.S.G. I think so. Do you not make a difference between the intelligence of the mind and the intelligence of the soul?

J.T. I think that coming to Christ as the living Stone is the result of affection. You have tasted that He is good, and you are drawn to Him.

J.S.G. That is, many people have divine things in their souls and they could not speak clearly of them, but you could say they are in the enjoyment of them.

J.T. That is abnormal. That was allowable in the case of Mary of Magdala at the tomb, and in her case even it was scarcely so, for she should have known that the Lord would arise.

J.S.G. I would have quoted Mary of Bethany as an example. She had intelligence in her soul beyond where her mind was at the time.

J.T. The question is whether her mind was not in it. "Against the day of my burying hath she kept this", John 12:7. I think in the full development of a Christian that intelligence has its seat in the heart. You would not be an intelligent being

without a mind, but, according to Ephesians, Christian intelligence has its seat in the heart. In chapter 1 it is, that "the eyes of your heart" (Ephesians 1:18) may be enlightened; and in chapter 3 it is, that you may be strengthened by the Father's Spirit in the inner man, "that ye, being rooted and founded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints", etc. Ephesians 3:16 - 18. It is all connected with the activity of your affections.

E.J.W. Does not the work of God in us involve our having both a new heart and a new mind, so that we become capable, morally and intelligently and in our affections, for the reception and appreciation, and enjoyment also, of all that lies in the purpose of God regarding us? Both are important as being essential parts of man as God's creation.

J.T. Yes. We get the mind of Christ in contrast to the natural mind.

J.S.G. "We have the mind of Christ", 1 Corinthians 2:16, means that Christians have the thinking faculty of Christ.

J.T. But to return to the subject. "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". Matthew 16:18. The Lord is going to establish something impregnable. How can you have the maintenance of divine testimony apart from this? How is it that Satan has not obliterated everything that is of God? This passage explains it.

J.B. Someone said Peter was a representative stone, so the other stones could be just as blessed of the Father as Peter.

R.S.S. When you think of a stone, it is there for a purpose; that is, to form part of the building; it brings you to the thought of association, and what this is in a practical way.

J.T. That is where Peter in the chapter we have been alluding to is so in keeping with this passage, because there we are being built up a spiritual house.