Pages 1 to 94 "The More Excellent Way". Edinburgh, June 1924 (Volume 64).

THE MORE EXCELLENT WAY (1)

John 11:1 - 46

J.T. My thought was that we might see in these chapters 11 to 20, what corresponds with the movements of the ark, as having the passage of the Jordan in view. The ark had moved from the outset (after it had been constructed) in leading the way in the wilderness, and in finding resting places for the people. It had moved to indicate the way for the people through the wilderness, as we learn from Numbers 10. But as we are brought to the end of the journey towards the passage of the Jordan there are peculiar stipulations; particularly that the people were to follow about 2,000 cubits behind. They remained three days at the Jordan before passing over, preparing victuals and sanctifying themselves. It was said, "For ye have not passed this way heretofore". Joshua 3:4. It was on my mind that the consideration of the later chapters in John's gospel with that in view would enable us to follow the movements of the Lord as actuated by love for His people, so that we might be brought into correspondence with Him as following at a distance of 2,000 cubits behind; for the instruction that He gives had in view that the disciples should be brought into correspondence with Him. It is only thus that the glory is a known thing amongst us, and shines amongst us. There is really no testimony according to God apart from that -- the shining of the glory. We cannot but be impressed with the prominence given to glory in this connection. The Person who was about to move was Himself glorious, and the movements, and all that accompanied the movements, involved the shining out of His glory.

In chapter 10 we see that His service to the nation is ended. He is definitely rejected, not only by the leaders of the people but by the Jews. You will observe the recurrence of the word "Jews" in chapter 10. The Jews surrounded Him in Solomon's porch; they had taken definite account of what He was amongst them and what He had done; then they challenged Him, and He meets their challenge by calling attention to His works and what He was amongst them, with the result that they took up stones to stone Him. The Jews as such thus committed themselves to His definite rejection, so at the close of that chapter He goes over the Jordan to the place where John baptised at the first and abode there -- not yet with His disciples, as He did later (John 11:54), but He abode there; He is alone. It is from that point that He proposes to go back into Judaea, which had already declared itself in murderous opposition, so that He is now definitely facing death. Jerusalem and Judaea were to be the scene of it, and hence this movement has a known murderous hostility in view. He is going to meet death, but He is not here entering as a victim. He is entering it by way of challenge. He is not the Victim here at all; chapter 10 shows that He is free. He says, "I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again". John 10:17. He had received this commandment of His Father. It was a movement of His own, a movement involving His meeting death and His disposing of it. But in moving to meet death to dispose of it, what comes up first is a loved one. He says, "Let us go to him". He thinks of the saints. He goes in His personal dignity and power, for the point was that God should be glorified, and that the Son of God should be glorified. He was entering the domain of death. He does it of Himself,

but in doing it He has the loved one first before Him.

H.D'A.C. It is really a divine Person walking through death.

E.M. Do you connect every movement with the outshining of His glory?

J.T. That is what is in view.

L.M. You said that it was not the victim side so much here.

J.T. The ark going into Jordan does not present the victim. It is not a type of the victim, but of the power of God and the glory of God. John presents a divine Person dealing with death, and that is not the thought of a victim, and hence it is --"What ailed thee, O sea, that thou fleddest, and thou Jordan that thou wast driven back?" Psalm 114:5. It is the presence of the Lord as the power of God. Chapter 10 shows that all that power is available for the sheep; that power is supreme right through. "No one shall seize them out of my hand". John 10:28. But now, there is one in death; that is what we get in this chapter. There was a certain man sick, Lazarus of Bethany. Death was about to lay claim to this loved one, and hence the Lord enters the field to overthrow this power. We get His feelings in regard of death in John more than we get elsewhere.

P.L. He groans in spirit at the grave.

J.T. Yes. 'Groan' is a strong word; it is He is deeply moved. The words "deeply moved in spirit, and was troubled", might be rendered, "He groaned and shuddered".

J.McI. You were saying that they had not gone that way before. Is that the thought here also?

J.T. They had not gone this way. Peter said to the Lord, "Why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thee". That was a mistake. He would do it later; but he could not do it then. We all have to learn what the 2,000 cubits mean. Thomas also says here -- "Let us also go that we

may die with him". The Lord says nothing about that, but it is quite obvious from what comes out later about Thomas that he was not prepared for it.

Ques. Is Lazarus a sample case of one who is relieved to follow Him?

J.T. Well, Lazarus was in death himself. I think it is as knowing Christ risen -- knowing the truth of Colossians -- that we follow. Lazarus is let go; as risen, he represents the liberty and dignity of the saints viewed as risen.

Ques. Is that headship?

J.T. It is more that you see you are risen with Christ. "In which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead", Colossians. 2:12. It is in the light of that that you accept death.

F.W. What is your thought as to the three days in which they were to prepare victuals at this point?

J.T. I think it indicates an exercise befitting this great movement. You need support for it; you need food for it. They were also to hallow themselves.

H.E.F. Do you mean that the considering of the Lord in His movements in these chapters would prepare us for following; hence the thought of following in chapter 12?

J.T. That is what they are intended for.

H.E.F. So that Peter does follow Him at the end.

J.T. Quite.

A.N. Where would you put this chapter in the epistles?

J.T. It really comes in with the first chapter of Romans. He is "marked out Son of God in power ... by resurrection of the dead". Romans 1:4.

A.N. I thought that you had in your mind "risen with Christ", and that you connected it with Colossians.

J.T. I was going to say that the germ of it is introduced in the gospel. The gospel is the power of

God; it involves the power of God; God's Son marked out in power by resurrection of the dead. The gospel is concerning His Son, and it brings into the soul the knowledge of God -- the knowledge of God in power; but the Son is the power of God, and so the gospel is about Him. In the working out of the details in Romans there must be righteousness as a basis, but nevertheless it is the gospel of God concerning His Son, which, as received into the soul, carries with it the germ of all that follows; so that in Colossians one has come to it -- "in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead", Colossians 2:12. It is a faith position, and it is only in the light of the power of God seen thus that we can undertake to follow.

J.McI. I suppose it would be spirit-wise in Colossians 1 But here it seems spirit, soul, and body.

J.T. It is faith in Colossians, faith in the working of God. We are not raised literally; it is a question of the light we have got. It is in the faith of the operation of God that one follows. We have to remain 2,000 cubits behind, but we see what has happened. As the priests' feet touched the waters they receded -- they disappeared; that is what Colossians means. It is not what is done in me; it is what Christ has effected in His death. Risen with Christ is a question of faith -- what God has effected.

E.M. Would you say it is not only what He was going to effect, but His feelings in presence of the death of a loved one?

J.T. That is it. He is going to deal with something that affects the saints in this dreadful way.

P.L. Do you get the follower in the glory way in Paul, when he says, "I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly"? Colossians 1:24. He is following behind.

J.T. Quite. I think these chapters give us what you might call the dying of Jesus; but it is the Son of God. Paul desired to bear about in his body the dying of Jesus. This chapter begins the movement which involved His death. It is not the death of Jesus, but the dying of Jesus. He is going to die, and it is how. With what feelings! With what sympathies! With what considerations!

J.M. Is it not His movements in that way that attract the affections of the saints?

J.T. That is so. We are taught how to move here. The saints are before us. He says, "Let us go to him". Whatever stands between us and Him has to be removed. Death in this instance stood between the Lord and the loved one, but He does not say, Let us go to the tomb; but, "Let us go to him". That is the exercise. Can you meet that? The Son of God met it. The question, therefore, is what power one has with regard to the saints.

J.F. Do you apply the dying of Jesus to the whole journey when He set His face as a flint to go to Jerusalem?

J.T. Quite. That is what I understand. It is not His death, but the dying. We read in the next chapter of His being lifted up, signifying by what death He was about to die; and then it is said of Peter "by what death he should glorify God", John 21:19. But in regard of Lazarus He says, "Let us go to him".

H.D'A.C. He would reach the dead -- His loved ones -- and to reach them He Himself must go through death. Is that your thought?

J.T. Quite. Whatever lay between Him and a loved one must go. There was a serious barrier. Abraham said to the rich man, "between us and you a great chasm is fixed". Luke 16:26. That was impassable. The Lord arrived here at the tomb and He groaned. The thing was not ordinary. He measured divinely what

He had to deal with. What lay between Him and Lazarus was not impassable to Him.

A.G. As being the One who was superior to death, in what way did He become subject to death?

J.T. By laying down His life. He had to lay it down. But to what do you refer when you say subject?

A.G. When He Himself died.

J.T. It is "obedient unto death"; but He lay dead three days; the pangs of death were loosed, for He could not be holden of death, but He died.

A.G. "As the Father hath given me commandment, even so I do".

J.T. Yes, it was in the pathway of obedience. No one took His life from Him. Here you have the Son of God, and as such He is superior to every barrier. But He is going to meet death, and He knows what death meant. The groan here signifies His estimate of it. It lay between Him and Lazarus.

E.J.McB. Do you understand by that that death would have closed up the loved ones for ever?

J.T. It would.

E.J.McB. They could never have come to Him.

J.T. David says in reference to the death of his child, "I shall go to him; he will not return to me" 2 Samuel 12:23. But then the Lord in saying "Let us go to him" meant that whatever stood in the way must go. He was going to remove what lay between Him and Lazarus.

E.J.McB. So that as one understands the purport of this education we should be able to get near to one another whatever the barrier may be.

J.T. I think that is the desire one would have here.

A.N. The outstanding point would be that it is the assembly that is the objective. Whatever stands in the way to hinder our reaching the assembly the Lord removes it by His power.

J.T. Exactly; here it is those who form the assembly. Then if you want to reach a brother, you want to go to him and the question is what power have you? John's ministry is intended to bring in power into our souls, so that we move towards Christ and then towards the saints.

Rem. In that respect there will be power to stay away as well as power to go.

J.T. You see the deliberation here. Jesus stays two days in the place where He was. Everything is measured in John. It is remarkable the reference to the measure of time.

R.B. Is your thought that we have power, as we see what the ark has accomplished 2,000 cubits ahead?

J.T. Paul said to the Corinthians, Christ lives by the power of God; and then he adds, "we shall live with him by God's power towards you" 2 Corinthians 13:4; you will know He lives in me to you in that way. He was dealing with them in power. They would know that. His letter had in view to reach them. "I have power", he said, "when your obedience is fulfilled, to deal with those who are disobedient"; "and having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled". 2 Corinthians 10:6.

P.L. "Ye are in our hearts to die and live with you". 2 Corinthians 7:3. Is that glory?

J.T. That is glory; exactly.

P.L. And Paul travailed, he agonised, for the Colossians. Would that be to get to them, removing everything that separated him from them?

J.T. That is the principle. The Lord goes in the dignity of being the Son; there is nothing to hinder Him going. It is His own determination. He is free, but He remained two days in the place where He was. He knew Lazarus was sick. He now says, "He is asleep, and I go to awake him out of sleep". Then

He says, "But let us go to him". The movement is one of glory -- a movement of love.

P.B. Is it not important that the Lord says, "Let us go to him" before they had to move?

J.T. Yes.

H.D'A.C. Why does it say, Let us go to him? Why is it not the singular number?

J.T. I think the Lord would bring us into it. It is a family matter.

R.G. Does this action on the part of the Lord involve His death?

J.T. It does. He says, I am the resurrection. I am.

R.G. What is in my mind is that He had power to remove death in the case of this loved one before He actually removed it before God for us. How does that come in?

J.T. I think that is what is referred to in Romans 1, "by resurrection of the dead". I think the dead there is plural. It is not simply His own resurrection; it is the resurrection of others. He is declared to be the Son of God -- that is the great testimony that comes out in this movement. He is declared to be the Son of God with power by resurrection of the dead.

R.G. That is a proof that He was the Son of God. Do all the miracles He wrought for the deliverance of man anticipate His death?

J.T. Well, they would have no meaning were it not that He was going to dispose of the whole question of righteousness, and that involved His death. But then there is the testimony clearly set out in this chapter as to His Person by the resurrection of Lazarus. Hence later God says, "I have both glorified it and will glorify it again".

Ques. Are things in relation to the glory of God carried out by the Son of God?

J.T. Quite.

P.L. Would you get in the ark the power in which He deals with death, and then in the priests carrying it those sensibilities of love which He would form in our hearts?

J.T. I think the priests carrying it would represent the holiness in which the Lord definitely acted in going into death. As it says, "according to the Spirit of holiness".

W.S.L. Have you any thought as to why the Lord allowed death to supervene before He moved?

J.T. Is it not to bring out that He intended to become endeared to this family? He intended to have a place with them that He never had had before. It is a wonderful result. They knew Him in a new way. "Did I not say to thee that if thou shouldest believe thou shouldest see the glory of God?" It is a movement in which the glory was manifested. It is a wonderful scene in Bethany, as one might say, "filled with the glory". Numbers 14:21.

W.S.L. Did He have in view chapter 12?

J.T. Yes; He had that in view. He came to Bethany. Chapter 11 begins with the wonderful result that had been reached. It says, "It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick". That was the result He had in view.

W.C.G. Would chapter 12 bring in Colossians?

J.T. I think it does. The Lord had that end before Him.

W.S.L. The opening of chapter 12 is a scene of glory, and every movement that led up to it manifests His glory.

J.T. If the glory is not seen in our circumstances, what is there? We are either filled with ourselves or with Christ. They made Him a supper, but He came there before they made the supper. He was before them.

H.E.F. Why does it say that "Jesus six days before the passover"?

J.T. He was on the way. These chapters indicate the way, hence His feet are anointed. His feet are carrying Him but it was six days before that that He had this refreshment. Mary's action is the result of chapter 11. He was refreshed; as it says in Psalm 110:7, "He shall drink of the brook in the way". He was on the way to death, and Mary understood from the previous experience where He was going. She had discernment by spiritual intelligence that He was going to die. That was the way He was on.

J.J. Would the fact that Mary sat still in the house indicate that she understood the 2,000 cubits?

J.T. I think so. You see a certain spiritual state in her that is not in Martha. She stands out in that way. In chapter 11 she sat still in the house; then she gets the message, "The master has come and calleth for thee". He knows what is in Mary's soul.

It is the personal touches you get here. "He calleth for thee". And then she has the favour of walking with Him to the sepulchre. He remained where Martha met Him until Mary came. Martha did not lead Him to enquire for the grave.

J.B.C. Would the character of John 11 suggest the constraining love of Christ. I had in mind what you referred to earlier in regard to the way that every previous movement may be on the line of knowing Him after the flesh. While the thing they saw in Him was divine, still the Lord's position has to be changed. It is power but in such fashion and expression of His feelings that it becomes the constraining love of Christ.

J.T. Just so. I think it is most affecting to take account of the Lord's own feelings. It was an immense thing for them that He could raise Lazarus

from the dead, but that they should know what His, feelings were in the act is most affecting.

P.B. The Lord would lead them into the way of love

J.T. Yes. We ought to see that it is the way of love. Paul says, "Yet show I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence", 1 Corinthians 12:31 and this chapter I think outlines it. We have the Son of God dealing with this awful thing and dealing with it feelingly, knowing what it involved

A.G. Would His tears be a manifestation of His love? It says, "Behold, how he loved him".

J.T. "Jesus wept". He is affected by the scene. "Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping, and the Jews, who came with her weeping, was deeply moved in spirit, and was troubled, and said, Where have ye put him? They say to him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept". That stands out in its own majesty. It is the Son of God, but nevertheless a real Man here with human feelings and sympathies. He saw her weeping, and saw the Jews weeping, and He was not indifferent to that. But then He took account of the occasion of all this and contemplated what it meant for Himself. He was deeply moved and He groaned.

H.D'A.C. The glory of His Person did not mitigate His suffering, would you say?

J.T. Quite.

E.P. The Lord expresses in this chapter the very soul of heaven in connection with a scene of death.

A.N. There would be two spiritual steps; on the one hand you might be acquainted with the power of Christ, which brings deliverance, but on the other hand if there be not the knowledge of what it cost Him and His feelings in connection with it, the affection, might he defective.

J.T. I think if there is anything the grace of Christ will produce in us it is right feelings and

sympathies. There are sympathies for those in sorrow and for those in joy; "rejoice with those that rejoice, weep with those that weep". Romans 12:15. We are so little accustomed to spiritual emotions, emotions such as we see here. He was "deeply moved".

J.J. Would you say Mary was in sympathy with Him?

J.T. I think there was a link there that was special. She was the one He had specially in mind, because the passage begins with, "It was the Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair". This is what He had specially at heart.

Rem. Holy affections moved the Lord at the death of Lazarus.

Rem. Would you say that when the Lord dies as the Victim, the result is that the waters become a wall on the right hand and on the left, but when it is to set a loved one free there is no water at all; it is annulled? The latter is what we have here.

J.T. Quite. That is what is in view here. So that the passage of the Jordan means that one is set free. There are no more barriers. "Loose him and let him go". I think it is characteristic of John that the man can be trusted. He is not delivered back to his mother -- he is let go; he is free. Death has dominion over him no longer.

E.P. Is all this education that we might be free from natural emotions like Martha, and get spiritual emotions like Mary?

J.T. That is the thing. I have no doubt she began to acquire the precious ointment here; she began to fill the box from this point.

W.S.L. You spoke of the sympathies that came out in the Lord in entering the scene of death and touching it. Is there any connection between that and the feet of the priests touching the water?

J.T. Yes, but I do not know that the priests

carrying the ark signifies anything beyond the holiness which characterised Christ in going into death. The Levites carried the ark, but in Joshua they are called priests, "the priests the Levites".

A.G. Was the grief of Mary the prospect of the loss of her brother? I was thinking of how it might affect us in relation to a brother.

J.T. She had lost him.

H.D'A.C. What about the loud voice? "He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth".

J.T. I think it denotes the power that He had as the Son. You have it referred to in chapter 5, "The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". John 5:25.

H.D'A.C. Is it the power of love -- very penetrating?

J.B.C-l. Is it in your mind that the feelings of the Lord are opened out in John's gospel in this peculiar way? They are spread out over certain incidents. If we think of Him as the Victim, His feelings would be concentrated, but in John's gospel we get the expression of them in various incidents. Would that bear out what you are saying as to the various exercises in which the question of His power is raised?

J.T. Yes, there is a peculiar fulness and finality in this gospel, and the place the saints have in His heart is prominent in John.

J.J. What about the corrupt state that had actually come in?

J.T. You mean as to what Martha said. Christ has brought to light life and incorruptibility. It was true that Lazarus was dead and that it had gone beyond the third day. Corruption no doubt had set in, but the Son of God had power to take him out of that state. The Lord had said, "Thy brother shall rise again". The family was composed of two sisters and one brother. There is no head in that family; the parents are not in evidence -- gone, I suppose.

And now the brother had gone, so that the desolation, as you might say, is complete. The Lord took account of that and said, "Thy brother shall rise again". The circle is set up again in the brother, so that He comes to Bethany in relation to him. "Jesus, therefore, six days before the passover came to Bethany, where was the dead man Lazarus whom Jesus raised from among the dead". John 12:1. That is to say, the Lord recognises a circle of three -- one brother and two sisters.

R.B. Why do you think the Lord spoke of Lazarus as "our friend"?

J.T. It was the place he had with the Lord. I suppose the Lord was accustomed to open up His heart to them there. In His visits He would open up His mind to that circle in Bethany. It is an immense thing to have a friend in a spiritual way.

R.B. I wondered if he had some special place of trustworthiness with the Lord, and on that account he was specially dear.

J.McI. Do we not all come under that head in John? "I call you not servants, but friends".

J.T. You have the circle set out with the brother, and with a brother risen from the dead. It is, I think, how John indicates the way of recovery.

J.F. Were you connecting on our part the bearing about the dying of Jesus with the manifestation of the glory?

J.T. Yes; you are brought into correspondence with that. Paul was aiming at that.

P.L. Is this glory "increasing with the increase of God"?

J.T. Quite.

J.H. Is this in accordance with 2 Timothy where He has brought life and incorruptibility to light?

J.T. Quite. That refers to His own death; that is what is in view there, and the result is that life and incorruptibility are brought to light.

THE MORE EXCELLENT WAY (2)

John 13

J.T. There are certain features entering into the pathway of the Lord in chapter 12 that should be noticed. A certain result is reached in the beginning of that chapter which affords a basis for chapters 13 and 14, indeed we may say for all the succeeding chapters till the end of chapter 17. The conditions among those at Bethany formed a basis, but the reception that the Lord received on entering Jerusalem and the presence of the Greeks desiring to see Him, brought into view His glory as the Messiah -- the King of Israel, and as the Son of man. These two incidents in principle suggest the testimony. If we are to be brought into accord with Christ in this way of love the testimony of God necessarily has its place. The Lord began by referring to a loved one; but then all the thoughts of God must have their place. Whilst the Lord reached results in Bethany which ministered to His own heart, and found a circle of affection there, there also enters into this way of love all the thoughts of God. The testimony to Him as the Messiah -- the King of Israel -- rendered on His way to Jerusalem, and then the presence of the Greeks desiring to see Him in Jerusalem, brought a wide range of things into view, representing in principle the testimony of God as regards the earth -- not yet the heavenly side, but what had reference to the earth. And this is an important feature in the way.

E.M. In what way do you connect this with what we had this morning?

J.T. Just in what I have been saying. The beginning of chapter 12 sets before us the results of chapter 11. The Lord has results for Himself. But then there are other things: God's thoughts as regards Israel, His thoughts as regards the whole

race of men -- these taken together afford a great expansion or enlargement of the testimony which must enter into this way of love; otherwise we should be narrow and limited.

H.D'A.C. Then you have the assembly, Jew, and Gentile?

J.T. Well, in the principle of it.

J.B. Would you say He waives His right to Messiahship and what is universal?

J.T. He not only waives His right for the moment, but He had to die. It is in the presence of these two testimonies to His earthly glory that He says -- "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die it abideth alone". John 12:24. His death comes in immediately as a necessity.

W.S.L. That is the testimony connected with the thought of the ark of the Lord of all the earth.

J.T. Yes. The ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth is moving forward.

W.S.L. These testimonies would bear on that point?

J.T. They would. In this way of love you cannot omit these thoughts. They enter into the position. Every thought of God, every testimony of God necessarily enters into this position. The question is whether we have these thoughts; whether we cherish every testimony of God. They have a great place with Christ; He is "the faithful and true witness". Revelation 3:14.

P.L. Is "part with me" having a place with Him in those thoughts?

J.T. Yes; certainly. He has all these things before Him; He cherishes them all.

A.N. The same principle would come in Ephesians 3:15 where the apostle enlarges upon the administration of the mystery. He goes on to say, "of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named". The assembly would hardly be a suitable companion for Christ apart from being in sympathy

with Him in connection with Israel and with what is universally His in the kingdom.

J.T. That is good. The Father has all the families. It is a poor wife who does not enter into her husband's interests.

E.J.McB. Do you not think that the assembly, being the vessel of the glory, would essentially hold every interest of Christ?

J.T. That is what comes out in the heavenly city. We have all the previous agencies of government -- the twelve tribes of Israel and the angels -- connected with the city; they are all there. But then the assembly includes them all. What I think the Lord would do for us is to bring in now the glory that is to characterise the city. John does not relate the actual ascension. The Lord says, "I ascend", which is to be taken in spiritually; but he does relate the coming out or the coming down of the city. The going in or the going up is more a spiritual matter. The city when it comes down will be invested with the glory. That is really what the city is for -- "having the glory of God". Revelation 21:10. But the Lord is really investing the assembly now with the glory in bringing in the love of God, so that she will come out with it. It is not that she gets it in heaven; I do not apprehend that at all. She is being invested with it here and now in the Holy Spirit's presence on earth under the administration of Christ; there is a wonderful service being carried on which involves that the city is to be invested with the glory. The glory is to reside there; it is to find its home in it, and I think that this is brought about by the vessels -- the persons who form the assembly being brought into the good of the covenant -- the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts. We are said to be "vessels of mercy which he had before prepared for glory" -- a wonderful statement. I think what the Lord is doing is that He is filling us with the glory; 1 Peter 1:8.

J.F. Would you say that the investiture is not future?

J.T. No, it is present; glory has come in. Glory came in with the Spirit being given.

E.J.McB. In that way the assembly, so to speak, "shall be received up in glory".

J.T. Yes, and so it shall be manifested in glory.

R.G. Is that the meaning of the scripture in Romans, "whom he has justified these also he has glorified"? Romans 8:30.

J.T. That is what it means. It has been remarked that the gift of the Spirit, the reception of the Spirit, involves the glory -- that we are glorified in having received the Spirit.

J.J. It says, "The, spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you". 1 Peter 4:14.

J.T. Quite.

E.M. "The glory thou hast given me I have given them". Does that refer to the Spirit?

J.T. I suppose it would involve it.

R.G. Would it not include the future -- the glorified body?

J.T. I think it refers to the present time. Of course the Lord is speaking anticipatively. Unity, too, is brought in in that connection. "That they may be all one" is now. "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one" -- one in glory. See John 17:21,22. The difference between saints is the difference in glory. There are no two strictly alike. In one sense all are alike -- all are like Christ; but in another sense each has a distinctiveness, as the apostle says, "for star differs from another star in glory". 1 Corinthians 15:41. It is in glory; that is what we are being formed in now.

S.McA. Is your thought that the glory is discovered in the way of love?

J.T. That is where it is seen -- seen in the way of love, really the way of glory. Glory is moral now;

no doubt there will be the actual shining in the future which is difficult to define perhaps, but this is the way of it. We are brought into accord with the Lord; we cherish every testimony. I think that is why we have these two incidents brought together here.

J.B.C-l. You get Lazarus being invested with the glory in that way. The Spirit calls attention to the fact that he was a dead man whom Jesus had raised. Then you get the affections that centre in the Lord personally, and the anointing of His feet gives the kind of affection that takes up all the testimonies and carries them through for the pleasure of Christ and the glory of God. Is that your thought?

J.T. Yes; it was a circle of glory that ministered to the Lord. His thought was that the thing should be perpetuated. These chapters are largely to bring out the provisions by which that may be perpetuated in this world whilst He remains away. He had tasted it; it was a precious moment for Him. And the service of feet washing and the instruction that follows is to fortify us so that a circle of glory should be continued here. Lazarus was one of those that sat at the table with Him, meaning that he distinguished or gave character to the company, as seated with the Lord.

E.J.McB. It is rather interesting that the character of the scene around is declared by the prophecy of Isaiah and it is connected with his seeing the glory.

J.T. These things said Esaias because he saw His glory and spoke of Him. The combination of Isaiah 53 and 6 is very beautiful; see verses John 12:38 - 41.

F.F. It also says there that "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne ... and one cried unto another ... the whole earth is full of his glory", Isaiah 6:1 - 3. Glory comes into the view of the prophet.

J.T. Yes. In John 12, Isaiah 53 is mentioned

first, "Lord who hath believed our report"; then chapter 6 is quoted, "he hath blinded their eyes". John 12:38 - 41. The first glory is what you might call the moral glory of the humbled Jesus -- a path which affected the eunuch. It was Philip's theme too in preaching to the eunuch, "his life was taken from the earth". Acts 8:33. The other refers to the judicial blinding of the nation, but what Isaiah saw was the glory. In the year that king Uzziah died he saw the Lord high and lifted up and his train filled the temple. By the seraphim there was the announcement as to His holiness, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts". Isaiah 6:3. It is a wonderful combination of glory, fully qualifying Isaiah to speak; in fact, the suggestion I think is that no one can speak of Christ rightly who has not seen His glory.

H.D'A.C. Is chapter 53 hidden in chapter 6? The live coal taken from off the altar?

J.T. I should say so. The sixth chapter is really reached by chapter 53, the humbled Man here. The moral precedes the official.

P.B. Is not that glory set forth in John 11 and 12; the ointment suggesting, perhaps, His train filling the temple, but the Lord Himself the object of everything?

J.T. You mean the glory of Isaiah 6. I think the effect of what we are considering is that the saints come in as the Lord's train, filling the temple.

P.L. It is a question of God receiving glory from man, and man receiving glory from God.

J.T. Yes. He announces that He has to die to bring forth much fruit. Then He says, "He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour". John 12:32. This is the way now to honour.

F.W. In chapter 11 we have the Son of God glorified. In this chapter it is the Son of man. How would you distinguish?

J.T. It does not say He is glorified here. The hour had come that He should be, that the Son of man should, meaning that the presence of the Greeks brought to His attention that He had right to humanity as the Son of man. But in chapter 13, "Now is the Son of man glorified" -- that is a different glory from the glory He spoke of in chapter 12. The latter is His place in relation to the habitable earth; He has got a right there -- the habitable earth to come; but the glory in chapter 13 is the glory that He has acquired in dying, and is present.

F.W. Are you connecting that with Isaiah 53?

J.T. Yes; it is in keeping with Isaiah 53; that is what Isaiah saw, he saw Him die.

J.J. "I, if I be lifted up from the earth". John 12:32. Does that go beyond the earth in chapter 12?

J.T. The point there is that He dies an ignominious death. What a death! It was a spectacle to angels and to men. And in that way He becomes the gathering centre. You must come to Him there; not as the King of Israel or as the Son of man ruling in the habitable earth, but as the One lifted up on a gibbet ignominiously.

S.McA. "The Son of man which is in heaven". Is that what you mean?

J.T. No, not quite. In chapter 13 when Judas went out He said, "Now is the Son of man glorified", meaning that a halo of moral glory should surround Him as dying. As a matter of fact all moral glory centres there. It is what was there when Judas went out; his going out was the sign that the end had come and the Lord felt it. He says, "Now is the Son of man glorified".

H.D'A.C. Was it not the culmination of glory, the whole pathway ending in that way?

J.T. Quite. Instead of entering on the glory that was proper to Him as Heir of all things, He covered Himself as it were with moral glory in dying. He was not yet to enter on His Messianic glory, or His glory as the Son of man in relation to the habitable earth, but He was going into death for the glory of God, that God might be glorified in Him. Hence he says -- "And God is glorified in him". There again it is moral glory. And then -- "If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him". "Glorify him immediately". That is the thing. Before His official glories which are now secured are entered upon He has got an immediate glory in God Himself. It is not deferred; it is immediate.

H.E.F. Do you distinguish between those two glories you have just spoken of -- "Now is the Son of man glorified" and "God shall straightway glorify him"?

J.T. Oh yes. The one is moral and the other is actual. The glory into which He has entered immediately is the present glory He has in heaven, exalted to God's right hand. God does that immediately. It is a provisional position He gets, and it involves grace for us. But He was to be personally glorified forthwith.

H.E.F. So you have three glories in your mind. You have spoken of Messianic glory, then "now is the Son of man glorified", and again "God shall straightway glorify him".

J.T. Yes. The two former are still future. He has not entered upon them. But the moral has brought His present exaltation. God has delight in Him personally as having glorified Him in death, and has given Him a place in heaven. He is in it for the moment pending the time of His entering on His official glory.

J.B.C-l. You mean that it is essential for us to understand the present position of Christ as glorified.

Our connection with the testimony of God must result from the fact that we know the glory of the Lord; otherwise the position would be dark and uncertain for us.

J.T. Quite. I think we ought to dwell on the glory of the Son of man because it involves what man is to God in Christ; what God has found in Christ as Man. His glory as the Son of God is that He raises the dead, involving the question of affection bringing about the assembly, and serving it; but then there is the question between man and God, and as having become man He glorifies God.

A.A.T. What connection has that word 'now' with Judas going out?

J.T. Because Judas was the agent of the devil -- "That thou doest, do quickly". Judas going out meant that His death would be immediate, and so it was. "Now" means that it is not deferred. "Now is the Son of man glorified ... and shall glorify him immediately". Immediately is the point there.

P.B. Does "Now is the Son of man glorified" refer to the Lord's death?

J.T. Yes; it refers to His death -- His moral glory.

J.J. What does it mean -- "glorifying him in himself"?

J.T. It means that it was personal between the Father and the Son. It is not a question of inherited glory, or of the glory He had with Him before the world was. It is the glory He has as having glorified God in death as Man.

W.C.G. The effect of that is that He ministers the covenant to us? "We all with open face, beholding ... the glory of the Lord". 2 Corinthians 3:18.

J.T. I suppose that God glorifying Him in Himself may involve the assembly, and what He is and has in the assembly. But the point is that God does it in Himself, and does it at once.

A.G. The ultimate issue of the sickness of Lazarus was not death but the glory of God?

J.T. Quite. Not only the ultimate, but really the immediate result. Whatever the result for the creation or the universe the immediate result is the glory of God in that death.

A.G. Is it connected in any way with what is in the beginning of the chapter -- "Having loved his own"?

J.T. I think that has reference to His service to us. There are the two things in the chapter -- what He is to us, the service that He renders to His people; but then there is what He is to God, "God is glorified in him".

E.J.McB. Is there not the thought that He has secured in that small company that which has no element of Satan in it, in that Judas had gone out? The 'now' seems to be connected with the fact that Judas had gone out and that the dying of Jesus was going to take place immediately. The moral consequence of both was there in that company.

J.T. Quite.

A.N. It would be akin to Jordan overflowing all its banks -- the power of Satan now coming out. But it would only be an opportunity for the display of His glory. It was at that time the ark went through.

J.T. I think that is good. Judas represents the power of Satan that was being brought to bear upon Him now.

J.J. But Peter in the end of the chapter is an element of failure. What about that? Judas is a different feature?

J.T. Peter is not an instrument of the devil. He is not so regarded. Peter represents failure truly enough, but it is remediable; it comes within the range of love. There is that which is outside the pale of love, outside the range of it -- "Behold, I

will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds". Revelation 2:22. I think that Judas is a type of that feature in the history of the assembly that would betray the Lord. It is outside the pale of the service of love. He waited on her in patience, and then He says -- "she repented not". Revelation 2:21. And He knows that; we may accept that as final. But Peter is more a type of Protestantism as being a denial of the Lord, but not without remedy. There is hope in it, and I think that that ought to stimulate us in the way of recovery -- I do not say the recovery of every one, but there is in that domain, in that sphere, those who love the Lord; so let us hope. They may have denied Him by using other names, but there is remedy.

J.B. Judas goes out in the face of the very greatest service.

J.F. He goes out in the presence of the greatest possible light -- the light of love.

A.A.T. Was the glory that Stephen saw the same glory as is spoken of in this connection?

J.T. That was the glory of God, referring back to Abraham -- "the God of glory appeared" Acts 7:2 to Abraham. God intended to work out things in taking up Abraham for His own glory, and they are all secured now. Stephen had that in mind. His address is the summing up of the whole testimony of God and He sees it all secured in heaven.

A.A.T. "He saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God". Acts 7:55.

J.T. That is it. The glory is all secured there. The chapter begins with the God of glory. You cannot limit that. It is the God of glory. Whatever glory there is He is the God of it, and it is all secured in Jesus. I have no doubt the present dispensation is worked out from that. It is worked out from the glory, the special glory He has received from God.

J.B.C-I. Do you connect the service of feet washing with the dignity of the Lord in chapter 13? The chapter opens with the fact that everything is in the Lord's hands. He has the supremacy -- "knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands ...".

J.T. That is how the matter stands -- a very wonderful position. And he lays aside His garment, meaning that in the consciousness of all that dignity He becomes a servant. He was conscious of all the dignity involved in what is stated -- "knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God and went to God". In the consciousness of all that, He laid aside His garments, girded Himself with a linen towel (the word 'linen' should be noted) and having poured water into a basin He began to wash His disciples' feet. He does everything.

F.W. Is all that connected with His glory as the Son of man?

J.T. Well, it is the glory of a "Lord and Master". It is the glory of one in an official position to lay that aside and take a servant's place. It is descending love. There is ascending love, of which He speaks later, but this is descending love.

F.W. Would the glory of the Son of man be on that line?

J.T. It would, no doubt. He is Administrator. The Father has given all things into His hands; He was come from God and went to God. The reference is, I think, to the hierarchical and clerical system developed in the history of the assembly. The Holy Spirit foresaw all that, and He set this down as a model. All the official dignity in which the so-called servants of Christ carry on their service is incompatible with the example of the Lord. They talk about Him as their Lord and Master but what about these robes of office? The Holy Spirit in this chapter anticipates

that in the history of the assembly, and the Lord sets the example which undermines this whole hierarchical system that the people of God suffer from; it disposes of it. The principle is laying all that aside and girding yourself with a towel and getting down to the feet of the saints.

H.D'A.C. That hierarchical system simply means that I must have a place.

J.T. It is remarkable how quickly we get the cloth on -- an indication of official place in the service of God. The Lord's moral glory is the descending glory. It is the way of love. "Yet shew I unto you -- shew I unto you -- a way of more surpassing excellence". 1 Corinthians 12:31. The apostle could do it because he had the love; he could shew that way. The Lord is shewing that way.

A.N. In Hebrews 2, while we get His glory as the Son of man, immediately after that we have the thought of many sons being brought to glory and the Captain of their salvation being made perfect through suffering. His coming down was to lead us into privilege.

J.T. That is the thing; it is the descending love. Presently the assembly will come down -- "I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God". Revelation 21:10. It is the glory descending and that in liberty -- coming down. There is dignity inwardly, but it comes down in the grace of that dignity. The Lord washing the disciples' feet is the means by which He maintains us to have part with Him.

P.B. Part with Him in what?

J.T. Everything that He is going on with now -- everything. Whatever He is going on with you want to be with Him, and He lays down the rule here which is the principle of having part with Him. You cannot have it without it. The great thing that the glory may be resident among us is the example that

He sets for us. "Hereby shall all men know that ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another" -- "love among yourselves".

P.L. Would 2 Corinthians 8:23 suggest the thought of glory being resident in the assembly?

J.T. I have often thought of that passage, "messengers of assemblies, Christ's glory".

Ques. How are we to deal with a brother like Peter? His opposition raised the question. He says, "Thou shalt never wash my feet". How are we to meet that condition of things?

J.T. It is a question of appealing to his affections. That is how the Lord met it. "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me". The only hope for a brother is, Has he got any love? If he has no love you can do nothing; you can have no part with the Lord unless this is dealt with. If he love the Lord then he will submit. He may raise a question as Peter did, but nevertheless He will submit.

F.W. I suppose it is the way of surpassing excellence -- the path available for us.

J.T. That is the thing. That is what the apostle brought to the Corinthians; he showed it to them. How he showed the way of surpassing excellence is worth considering. The Lord girded Himself with a linen towel and I think the apostle carefully thought over the fabric he would use in writing his second epistle to the Corinthians. There is a great use now of cotton and even paper, instead of linen, but they are very poor substitutes. I think the second epistle is his towel; the first epistle is the water. He was in much exercise as to what he would use, that which would be most absorbent, and would effectively remove what may have irritated in the first letter.

Ques. It is constraining love brought in?

J.T. That is what it was; that is the linen.

J.J. Linen was the fabric the priest had to wear.

J.T. The priest should know the meaning of it.

Rem. I suppose the hierarchical officials have not got that towel.

J.T. I do not think they have.

F.W.B. What do you say the linen is?

J.T. The linen is the second letter to the Corinthians. We have to understand the way. Paul says, "Yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence". 2 Corinthians 12:31. We must understand the way of love.

H.D'A.C. That shows that righteousness is connected with love. There is a tender way of dealing which is only right.

Rem. The apostle says, "Our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged". 2 Corinthians 6:11. Is that the thought of the linen?

J.T. That enters into it. Before the apostle wrote the second letter he had been to the gates of death himself. God had brought him down; he had had new experiences, experiences that drew out more tender compassions, so that he speaks about the God of all encouragement. He had had the sentence of death in himself and had had to do with the God who raiseth the dead and who delivered him from so great a death; so that he brings in the ministry of the covenant and the ministry of reconciliation. I think these two ministries set us down in ease. Whatever may have happened, as they are received into our souls they set us down in perfect liberty of spirit in the presence of God.

Ques. Would you help us as to His girding Himself?

J.T. It means that He took a servant's place; as has often been referred to in Exodus 21, the servant there loved his master, his wife, and his children and would not go out free, but would remain a servant for ever.

J.B. Do you think the Lord intends that His own should take account of His movements here, that moral dignity may be produced in them?

J.T. That is the thing, to get into this way of surpassing excellence. Exercise of gift is, of course, undoubtedly of great value, especially as Paul says, the gift of prophecy; but this way of more surpassing excellence is the thing to follow after. "Follow after love". 1 Corinthians 14:1.

F.F. In John 11 the Lord refers to the twelve hours of the day. Would that be the full day of glory? And this way is carried out in the light of that? He speaks of walking in the light, and stumbling if we walk in the night.

J.T. I think that the day -- twelve hours -- would be the day in which the glory shines; we are to walk in the light of that. Chapter 11 is the shining out of the glory, and chapter 12 sets before us the results of that. The light of the glory of Christ shines in the circle of the saints, as seen in principle in the company at Bethany.

F.F. I was thinking of the Corinthian epistle and the apostle bringing in the way of more surpassing excellence in the light of that glory.

J.T. Quite. The light of the glory had shone into his heart, and so it shone there for others. It is in the assembly, the Spirit dwelling there.

J.B.C-l. Is it not glory that influences the heart in taking up the attitude of feet-washing, not merely meeting conditions displeasing, but a sense of the valuation connected with the saints. The disciples' feet in His eyes had a definite glory apart from a human standpoint. It would be the investing of the saints with thoughts according to the divine pleasure.

J.T. Some of us were speaking the other evening on the last chapter of Leviticus. Every bit of the divine nature is to be taken account of in the saints. Everything of God is to be gathered up. The chapter provides for every little bit that is of God being valued. Even if a man were poorer than the valuation

placed upon him by Moses, his case was to be looked into. If there is something there, the priest discerns it. The spiritual discernment among the people of God discovers there is something of God there. Well then, you clothe the person with that something. You want to get that, and get it in relation to Christ.

P.L. "Every good thing", Paul says to Philemon 1:6

J.T. Every good thing that is in the brother. It gives a wide range, for there is a good deal more in the people of God than we are apt to think. The last chapter of Leviticus shows every brother is to be taken account of. There is a wide range for service. What an opportunity there is to bring all into evidence for Christ!

H.D'A.C. A man might waste time. A man after sixty is not of the same value as the man of twenty. He cannot make up for the past.

J.T. That is true. After he is sixty he is only worth fifteen shekels, but nevertheless he is worth that much. Rem. Do you mean that John 13 is the way of entrance into all spiritual blessing in our day?

J.T. Quite. Entrance into things from our side.

J.J. Is that why it is connected with the Supper?

J.T. It is not the Lord's supper, it is the passover, but we know that the Lord's supper was instituted at that time. John, however, deals with the spirit of the thing, that which shines there, so that this chapter necessarily enters into our position at the Lord's supper. He gives the spirit that accompanied its institution; he enlarges on that so that we might be there in a right spirit.

W.S.L. Did you say John 13 was the passover supper?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. "There they made him a supper". John 12:2. Would that answer to the Lord's supper?

J.T. I do not think so. We do not make the

Lord's supper; neither do we make it to Him. He has instituted the Supper. It is His institution.

W.S.L. The Lord's supper is what He has made for us.

J.T. Exactly.

J.J. We could not think of John leaving out the spirit of the Supper.

J.T. No; but he leaves the thought of the Lord's supper to the synoptic gospels, because it is connected with the previous testimony. It is connected with the public testimony.

Ques. Is it because the Lord is with them in John?

J.T. I think John in his gospel avoids official things. The Lord's supper, baptism, the word "assembly" --these are terms that belong to the candlestick, to the public position of the assembly. He does not deal with that; but deals with what supports it. He deals really with recovery. His is a ministry that brings us into accord with these public things. What is the use of knowing the public things if we are not secretly with God?

W.S.L. Would "part with him" involve our having part with Him in all His interests here in connection with the testimony?

J.T. That is what He has in view. It is not a question of our entering on heavenly privilege exactly; the Father had given all things into His hand, and He had come from God and was going to God, and thus the administration of everything is in His hands. That is the position rather.

W.S.L. I thought that from the fact of what you have mentioned in chapter 12, the glory of the kingdom, and of the Son of man.

J.T. Well, I think that enters into it, as we have said.

J.J. Where would you go for the heavenly side?

J.T. To chapter 20.

E.M. The spirit in which we carry out service -- would that be the leading thought?

J.T. Yes. I would connect this passage with the covenant more. While John does not mention it formally, it falls into accord with it. "He came out from God and was going to God". But in chapter 20 He says, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". John 20:17.

F.W. Is the passover connected with descending love and the Lord's supper with ascending love?

J.T. I think the Lord's supper is connected with His descending love.

F.W. "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer". Luke 22:15.

J.T. But then He institutes His own Supper there, and says, "This is my body which is given for you". Luke 22:19

F.W. The love in the Supper seems to carry us further than the passover.

J.T. But then it is a question of Him coming in that carries us further. It is His obtaining a place in the assembly that makes room for the ascent. It is His leadership; hence the memorial brings Him in.

L.M. Would it be that the Lord introduces His own Supper after Judas has gone out?

J.T. I do not know about that; according to Luke Judas was there.

F.F. At the close of this chapter the Lord refers to children and a new commandment.

J.T. Yes, that is the parental thought which is enlarged on in John's epistle. He was here representative of the Father; the parental idea was there. I think that is what is meant by "has been begotten of God". 1 John 2:29. In John's epistle it is "begotten of him", and you cannot always be sure if the reference is to the Father or the Son. The parental thought necessarily

entered into the Lord's position here, and I think that is where the idea begins of the children of God.

J.B. The Lord intends us to be here in correspondence with Himself in the service of love.

J.T. Yes; and in speaking to His disciples as children, He is bringing in a word that belongs to a parent. It tends to strengthen the position and the teaching if we take on His own character -- that of a parent -- in any part we may have in the service of love.

P.L. Would it embody the ideals of love in His parental love for them?

J.T. Yes; it would.

J.B.C-l. Do you think the fact that John wrote his epistle at the time of apostasy raises the question as to how far we have part with Him in these things?

J.T. Quite. I think that John's epistle somewhat grows out of the teaching of this chapter. "They went out from us". 1 John 2:19. There were those who had gone out. Judas went out. And then he brings out the features of the children of God. "Ye know that everyone that practises righteousness is begotten of him". 1 John 2:29. The knowledge that God is righteous has come out in Christ. The parental thought necessarily enters into the Lord's way here, for that is where God is known.

THE MORE EXCELLENT WAY (3)

John 18:1 - 11

J.T. Our thought has been to connect these chapters with the movements of the ark, having the crossing of the Jordan in view and regarding the ark in the language of Psalm 78 as "His glory" -- the glory of God; and also that we might, as recognising that 2,000 cubits were to separate the ark from the people, know how to follow, and in the following to take on the glory -- to be brought into correspondence with Christ. We referred to the apostle's desire that he might bear about in his body the dying of Jesus. The glory had already shone into his heart, "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ", 2 Corinthians 4:6 and it would work out in the bearing about in his body the dying of Jesus. We saw that the Lord had finished His service among the Jews, resulting in His definite rejection by them. It says that they surrounded Him in the temple in Solomon's porch, and challenged Him as to His being the Christ and His testimony that He was, and they took up stones to stone Him, so that, having His testimony they deliberately rejected Him. Then He goes, as it says, beyond Jordan to the place where John baptised at the first, and it is from that point that He moves back into Judaea, knowing now what awaited Him there; so that the movement has reference to the passage of the Jordan, that is, to His meeting death. But what comes into evidence first is a loved one, and He says, "Let us go to him". John 11:15. John 11 brings out the first great feature of the movement, which had in view the saints, those who were loved. He would "go to him". Lazarus being raised, the Lord, six days before the passover, comes to Bethany where Lazarus was, and there He finds

a circle in which there is correspondence with the glory that had shone. It was thought that that circle formed the basis of the subsequent instruction, so that the varied testimonies of God come into view; first, in the reception He receives as He entered Jerusalem being recognised as the King of Israel, and second, in the Greeks desiring to see Him. The testimony of God regarding the earth comes into view. Necessarily it enters into the education of the saints in these chapters.

Then chapter 13 brings out His well-known service in washing the feet of His disciples. Thereafter it says when Judas was gone out the Lord said, "Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself, and shall glorify him immediately ..". John 13:31,32. Then He tells them that where He was going they could not come; He indicates that the 2,000 cubits have to be recognised. The principle of following is recognised, but it is to be in the recognition of the "distance between". Joshua 3:4. He says to Peter, "Thou canst not follow me now, but thou shalt follow me after", John 13:36, which he did, and glorified God in his death. Peter indeed might be taken as an example of the education that there is for us, so that we might come into correspondence with Christ eventually, as we read in chapter 21: "But he said this, signifying by what death he should glorify God". John 21:19. The Lord had spoken of His own death, "This he said signifying by what death he was about to die" -- that is, by lifting up. I think that the Lord is investing His people with the glory -- first, in the way of love in chapter 13; and then in chapter 14 by the Holy Spirit coming in. Christ is on high to be an Object of faith, and the chapter is to fill our minds with the advantages accruing to us from this during the period of His absence.

H.D'A.C. "Thou shalt follow me afterwards". John 13:36.

Christ must go first, but later on we find in Joshua that the people were much nearer the ark in following than 2,000 cubits. In going round Jericho, for instance; it is not said that there was that space between the ark and the rest of the host then.

J.T. Oh no. It was only while the Jordan had to be crossed. "Ye have not passed this way heretofore". Joshua 3:4. The reference is to the Lord going into death. We have to see how He went into death, and how He dealt with it.

J.M. The Lord said to Peter -- "Thou canst not follow me now". John 13:36. Would that indicate the present teaching of the Lord in a moral way for us?

J.T. That is what we are at -- what there is now in the teaching. We have to contemplate the Lord in His divine dignity going into death. We know now that there is no water in the Jordan for faith, but nevertheless death has to be accepted.

J.F. What is the force of there being no water?

J.T. Well, the Lord has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light through the gospel. That is for faith. But crossing the Jordan is more for us than a matter of faith; one can only go over by the Spirit; it is the normal counterpart of the recognition of the Spirit in Numbers 21. The flesh does not go into Canaan.

C.A.P. Is it not significant that there is no mention of the crossing of the Jordan in Hebrews 11?

J.T. There is mention of the crossing of the Red Sea, but not of the Jordan.

C.A.P. It was not faith.

J.T. No; it is by the Spirit. "But by faith they passed through the Red Sea". Hebrews 11:29.

J.B.C-l. Does the presentation of the truth connected with the Holy Spirit's coming, as in chapter 14 take the same place in a way as the transfiguration in the other gospels? What is in my mind is that in the other gospels their being in

the way with the Lord on the line of suffering follows the transfiguration. You seem to suggest that their being in the way according to John's gospel is dependent on the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. That is right. I think, however, that chapter 11 would correspond with the mount of transfiguration from John's point of view. The glory shone on the mount; He was declared to be the Son from heaven, but from John's point of view He is declared to be the Son by resurrection. That was for them. "Did I not say unto thee that if thou shouldest believe thou shouldest see the glory of God?" John 11:30. The movement, I think, begins with the glory.

J.B.C-I. That helps me. I was thinking whether the Spirit would be the seal of that to us, but I am glad you go back to chapter 11 and connect it with the glory.

J.T. Instead of Peter, James, and John -- the leading apostles -- being the witnesses, the testimony to the glory is maintained in a circle in which two women shine. John has a way of reflecting on those in an official position. In chapter 4 a woman shines when they who should have shone had gone into the city to buy meat. In chapter 12 Martha serves; Lazarus is there, but rather as the subject of His power in resurrection; it is not exactly the subjective side in Lazarus, but in the two women we have that. That is in keeping, I think, with John; the glory found a residence in the circle at Bethany. And in chapter 20 again a woman shines. Whatever the failure may be of those who have the official place, John secures a residence for the glory.

J.F. What is the point in connection with the prominence given to the women in John?

J.T. It is a feature with him. Instead of Peter and James and John on the mount of transfiguration with the Lord as in the synoptic gospels we have a

circle in Bethany affording a residence for the glory; and it is marked by the service of two women.

P.B. A circle brought together by love for the Lord.

J.T. That is the thing. Now these chapters bear on the close, they contemplate the failure of the official vessel, and they show that God secures a place for the glory notwithstanding. It was a question of those whom He loved and who loved Him.

P.B. Is that question raised again in regard of the coming of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes; in chapter 14, "If ye love me". John 14:15.

E.J.McB. I think your thought in emphasising the women is that the glory is secured on moral lines, not on official lines.

J.T. Quite. It aptly fits in with the present position. They were loved ones, but then the Lord did not have His place. He loved them, but Lazarus was more to the sisters than the Lord was. The Lord was a known friend of the family -- recognised to be a friend, but He would have a greater place than that. That is the point for the moment. There are many whom He loves, but He would have His own place in their hearts. He would come in Himself as head, and that is the proper result of chapter 11.

E.M. He could only be glorified in those who loved Him.

J.T. Quite. He was glorified at Bethany. In chapter 17 He refers to the men whom the Father had given Him out of the world. We have to come to that -- we have to come to the men. Although we begin with the women, they do not suggest the divine thought. God has men in His mind, and when the Lord prays, He prays about the men. "The men which thou gavest me". John 17:6. We have to come to manhood. God does not surrender any thought. If He does recognise women, He has the masculine side before Him.

Rem. Where there is the spirit of appreciation of the true ark the glory is secured.

J.T. Yes.

S.McA. You referred to Him more as dying than as dead -- "the dying of Jesus". 2 Corinthians 4:10.

J.T. It goes on to His actual death. The principle is that He is dying from chapter 11 onwards. Mary recognised that. Her spiritual instinct enabled her to discern that He was going to die.

S.McA. So that it is a new departure from the point beyond Jordan where John baptised at the first.

J.T. That is right. It is an entirely new movement, having death immediately in view. In chapter 14 the Lord is going on high, and we learn there the provision made for us throughout the whole period of His absence. There is provision made for those who love Him and keep His commandments. That goes right on to the end, because chapter 14 not only provides for the saints as the Lord loved them here, as they appeared at Pentecost, but it provides also for the individual who loves Him and keeps His commandments. Then in the next chapter the position is collateral with that. There is that which is public, involving the failure of that which the apostles inaugurated -- a provisional position on earth into which the Gentiles have come. We have to know how we are to be sustained in these two relations; what He is to those who love Him viewed by themselves, and what we are to be in a state of things where unreality is contemplated.

J.F. Do we get the provisional public position in chapter 15?

J.T. Yes. That chapter is the history of the public thing inaugurated by the twelve, and then in chapter 16 we get the service of the Spirit -- the ministry of the Spirit in relation to the testimony. Chapter 14 is the Spirit as provision for those who love the Lord; chapter 16 is the Spirit come directly

from the Lord Himself in relation to the testimony -- the whole testimony.

J.B. Would chapter 16 in that way give us ability to take up the interests of the Lord intelligently and affectionately!

J.T. Yes, and confidently There is One here who is infinitely greater than the whole power of evil in the world. But chapter 14 is what the Lord is mediately; He is a Mediator there, and He shows what He would do in His love for us; He begs the Father for the Spirit; He solicits for us.

A.G. What position is the ark in there?

J.T. All this comes in anticipatively. Chapter 14 was spoken at the Supper -- during the passover It is all to bring in the place that they had in His heart. The lesson for you and for me is that we do all we can for the saints. He had done all possible on earth; He served them on earth; now, He says, I will be solicitous in heaven for you, and you can ask Me even there; you can reckon on Me; you can have every confidence in Me there; "believe also on me" John 14:1.

Ques. Is the Spirit not given for the service of bringing us into the full knowledge of His mind for us?

J.T. He is here, in John, as the Spirit of truth "I am the way, the truth, and the life" John 14:5 is a question of their knowing Him It enters into what we are considering.

J.J. There are three questions asked in chapter 14. Do they sum up the whole position? The first question is about the way -- Thomas says to Him, "and how can we know the way?" John 14:5. Then Philip says to Him -- "Lord show us the Father and it sufficeth us" John 14:8. Then Judas, not Iscariot says, "How is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?" John 14:22. Would that be the present movement?

J.T. It shows it is a good thing to ask questions.

The writer in Proverbs 30 asks questions, and he observes, but he knows. It is a fine chapter as a model for questioning. The writer raises questions. He humbly admits his ignorance. Nevertheless he knows, but he raises questions.

H.D'A.C. Is not that the way to learn?

J.T. That is what I was thinking.

E.J.McB. How does our present chapter, John 18, stand in relation to the thoughts you have suggested?

J.T. I think it sets out the movement of the ark. The Lord is definitely moving again. The preceding chapters prepared the disciples for this move; they are with Him. "Jesus went out with his disciples". That is what we want to get at. In order to be with Him as seen here we have to understand the chapters

that precede.

R.B. Will you say a word on chapter 17, following on what you have said as to chapter 16?

J.T. I feel that we ought perhaps to consider a little more the bearing of chapters 14, 15, and 16, so that, having the thoughts of God before us as disclosed in these chapters, we might see the bearing of the prayer in chapter 17. The Lord prays for men, and I think the teaching of these chapters is to bring them in, for God's thought is men. In the eternal state the tabernacle of God will be with men. The thought in men is the intelligence that God intended to set forth in them; the idea is intelligence. A man is the image of God. "Quit yourselves like men". 1 Corinthians 16:13. I think the divine thought is brought about in the race as seen in Christ, but it is necessarily seen first in Christ personally.

Ques. Do you mean in contrast to babes?

J.T. More than that; involving the teaching of the chapters that precede.

J.J. In chapter 17 He says, "I have manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world". John 17:6. Would that be something similar to

Paul in 2 Corinthians: "I know a man in Christ"? 2 Corinthians 12:2

J.T. Well; somewhat. The queen of Sheba referred to Solomon's men: "Happy are thy men". 1 Kings 10:8

Ques. Do you mean that the men are produced by the education of these chapters?

J.T. How could it be otherwise? We have to learn the divine thought in Christ; the thought of God is seen in Him. We have to learn what man is in the mind of God from Christ.

A.N. Would you get the two set forth in Proverbs? You come under the mother, "tender and only beloved", Proverbs 4:3 and then you get the father. Is it in view of manhood? You enter into the father's intentions?

J.T. Yes. Solomon I think represents the thought. "I was a son unto my father, tender and an only one in the sight of my mother". Proverbs 4:3. He came under the counsel of the mother, and grew up into manhood as in the knowledge and culture of his father. I think that typically Solomon is the man. Wisdom said, "My delights were with the sons of men". Proverbs 8:31.

A.N. "In understanding be men".

J.T. Proverbs opens up what is becoming in men. I think Solomon is typically the man, beginning with the desire for wisdom, acknowledging his ignorance, and growing up by divine tuition into manhood.

J.McI. Is that the thought in Ephesians 4? The gifts are to that end -- until we all arrive at manhood.

J.T. Yes, the full-grown man.

J.B.C-I. The situation of chapter 18 seems to correspond with the position of David when he went up by the brook Cedron. What came out at that time was great solicitude for the ark and for the people. Is there a similar thought here? We get what the Lord is as the ark, and in His feelings as expressed we see His great solicitude for every thought connected with the glory of God.

J.T. Quite. Now, His disciples are with Him. I think that their identification with Him in the garden, now that the closing moments have come, involves the teaching of the previous chapters.

W.S.L. Would you say that the disciples were brought at that time into correspondence with the ark?

J.T. That is what I thought. Then you have further disclosures. "If, therefore, ye seek me", He says, "let these go away".

W.S.L. What do you gather from that?

J.T. The Lord's consideration for us. He has to go before us, and He gives Himself up to the band who came with lanterns and torches and weapons; but He would not have the disciples arrested. The time had not come for that; they would be later, but that time was not yet. It involves the 2,000 cubits.

A.G. Would this be the movement of the ark in spite of any movement of the enemy? "Knowing that the hour had come".

J.T. Yes. They went backwards and fell to the ground.

P.L. We have the challenge here. You spoke of the challenge yesterday -- the Lord going into death in that character.

J.T. Quite. The people really had been accustomed to the power of the ark through the wilderness. "Rise up, Lord, and let thine enemies be scattered". Numbers 10:35. That was so when the ark moved at any time, but when it came to the Jordan we hear nothing of that. Moses was not there; it is the feet of the priests now. But the people had been accustomed -- and it was the divine intent that they should be -- to the effects of the movements of the ark. Now the enemies went backwards. This is for the disciples. We have to see the bearing that there is in the

movements. "Let these go their way". I think the service of prayer in chapter 17 is there as a model. One following the instruction would clothe the saints with divine thoughts, because it is a question of what is available to God. God has not given up any of His thoughts, and what is available to God now, you clothe in your prayers with the divine thoughts. You have nothing less in your heart for them. Chapter 18 is the enemy's power. Think of what there is here -- a band with Judas, and lanterns and torches and weapons! What are they after? They are avowedly against Christ. These conditions exist, and they have to be faced. Hence the importance of the instruction of the previous chapters and of the prayer of chapter 17. I am not now speaking of its value in detail as the prayer of the Lord Jesus, but as you might say, as the golden altar for us. You turn your eyes away for a moment from the saints and you look to God. He "lifted up his eyes to heaven". John 17:1. You are engaged with God in prayer, clothing those that are available with the thoughts of God, and what He can make them.

W.C.G. Another desire of the Lord is that He would have them sanctified; He would build His sanctuary. Is not that the object in view when He says, "Let these go their way" -- that they might be a sanctuary?

J.T. No doubt. In the meantime He goes forward. But there is reserve. Isaiah had seen His glory. Well, what glory was it? He says, "I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple". Isaiah 6:1. I think "these" are His train; let these go their way, they would become that. The train is filled with glory. "In his temple doth everyone speak of his glory". Psalm 29:9

W.C.G. Peter was not disposed to accept the public situation. He would have entered into conflict to set aside the activity of the enemy.

J.T. As was usual, the disciples never entered into His thoughts. All is anticipative. You get in John that when He was raised from the dead they understood, when He was glorified they remembered. These things are anticipating the resurrection and the glory of Jesus. They should become vessels in the temple, where everyone doth say glory. It says His train filled the temple and the seraphim, attending of themselves, helped to bring about that. I think John brings in the seraph service. Matthew is the cherubim. "Seraphim were standing above him", Isaiah 6:2 it says; that is what the Lord is going on to. And one cried unto another (they each had six wings) and said, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts, the whole earth is full of his glory". Isaiah 6:3. That is what they have in mind, and that is what these chapters bring about -- the holy character of the brethren, so that they are associated with the Lord in the temple. What God is aiming at now is to bring about the latter glory of the house -- all that which will culminate in the heavenly city. It is not that it is going to be filled with the glory up there -- that would not be victory. The glory is now; the assembly is invested now with it. The disciples did not understand; but the principle throughout John is that you will understand later; "thou shalt know hereafter". John 13:7

H.D'A.C. It is an amazing sight for them. Judas does not draw near to kiss Him. It is too glorious for them to lay hold of Him at that moment.

J.T. The thing to lay hold of is the power of Christ for us now. Look at the combination of evil there is. In John Judas represents the power of Satan against Christ, beginning with betrayal. He is now coming back. "They went out from us". 1 John 2:19 Now they come back. Satan brought about a combination of evil that never existed before. They have the band and the lanterns and the torches and the weapons.

J.F. Have these their counterpart at the present time?

J.T. They have. They refer, I think, to the gropings of men, the darkness in which they are moving in opposition to Christ.

Ques. Does the being with God in chapter 17 show how they are to be met?

J.T. That is the thing. If we are to profit by way of example we go to God. If it be a question of what is available, it is no use referring back to what there has been, the point is what is available at the present time, and clothing what is available with the thoughts of God. What can God not do?

R.B. Does what the Lord secures here for the disciples answer to the opened door in Philadelphia?

J.T. That is exactly what it does.

P.L. Does that go with the last verse of the chapter you were referring to in Isaiah 6 -- the tenth part?

J.T. "Yet in it shall be a tenth". Isaiah 6:13 Yes, quite.

A.N. Would chapter 18 answer to Numbers 10 -- the forward movement of the ark? "Rise up, Lord, let thine enemies be scattered". Numbers 10:35

J.T. That is what you get here.

J.B.C-l. You spoke of the power of Christ as covering His own. Is that in view of their being free to follow? What comes out in Peter almost immediately after is the readiness to intercept the Lord's way. Do you not think at times there is that with us, we would get into the way of the Lord in regard to these movements?

J.T. I am sure that is so. These different ones whose names are given in John's gospel are intended, I think, to teach us the features that may come out. You get Andrew and Philip, and Thomas and Peter. All those are brothers -- disciples -- representing in one way or another the conditions that arise amongst us as the Lord is seeking to teach us, and I think the

Lord's way with them would help us as to how patient we are to be with one another.

W.C.G. In Psalm 68 already quoted, it shows how the enemies flee-"Kings of armies flee apace ... though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver and her feathers with yellow gold". Psalm 68:12,13

J.T. "The chariots of God are twenty thousand ... the Lord is among them". Psalm 68:17 They went backwards. They have no power if the Lord is pleased to act against them.

J.J. What would you say about the disciples being with Him in the education of the previous chapter? Does that refer to our having part with Him.

J.T. I think so. In the garden it is not the victim character. The other gospels give us the Lord's feelings as regards the cup and the power of Satan, but here He is supreme. John has in view that we can move on; there is the power available to move on according to Christ in this glorious way, the way of glory.

J.B.C-l. It is very encouraging.

F.W. Do we get the glory of His holiness here? "The whole earth is filled with his glory", Isaiah 6:3

J.T. There is indication of it here.

F.W. Would you say a word as to the seraph?

J.T. I think John brings in the seraph feature of the truth. Matthew, as I have said, is the cherubim. The Lord says to the disciples, "Will ye also go away?" and Peter says, "Lord to whom shall we go; thou hast words of eternal life, and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". John 6:67 - 69. -- the Holy One. That is what He was -- "The holy one of God". That was the conception of the Lord that got into Peter's soul, and John records that if you have got an ideal that ideal is sure to give

character to you later, and that is what is in view in John. He is the holy and the true.

F.W. Are the cherubim more connected with righteousness?

J.T. I think the enforcement of the will, of the government of God, begins in the garden -- the cherubim with the flaming sword, and it had a great place in the tabernacle and in the temple. But one can understand the force of the seraph feature in John, because we have to do with such evil in the Jews, among those who professedly were the people of God. Holiness is essential. Hence the Lord speaks to the assembly at Philadelphia as "the holy, the true". Revelation 3:7

Rem. The live coal from off the altar touching the lips of Isaiah would correspond with John -- "Ye have the unction from the holy one"? 1 John 2:20

J.T. Quite. One called to the other and said, "Holy, holy, holy, Jehovah of hosts" Isaiah 6:3 we see in that the kind of mutuality that John would bring about. The saints, as apprehending Christ in the gospel of John are, so to speak, occupied with this -- with His holiness.

P.L. So John says to the elect lady, "but hope to come to you, and to speak mouth to mouth". 2 John 1:12

J.T. Exactly.

J.J. Do you mean that it was the work of the seraphim that the band and officers went backward and fell to the ground?

J.T. No. Not quite that, but the glory shone there. There was something there that forced them back. The power of God was there. See Psalm 114.

P.B. The moral glory of the ark at the crossing of the Jordan caused the waters to recede out of sight. This is the beginning of it.

J.T. What God is bringing about now is a state of holy love amongst His people answering to the seraphim calling one to another, saying, "Holy, holy,

holy ... the whole earth is full of his glory". Isaiah 6:3 That is their converse. It is an immense result if God bring that about amongst His people.

J.F. As a present result.

J.T. That is the thought -- a present result.

H.D'A.C. "Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness".

J.B.C-l. Would this help us in bearing the reproach together? You remarked earlier as to the peculiar combination of evil that is brought about here, and one of the most solemn features of apostasy is that those who go out know the place and the persons and consequently of their failure and this adds a peculiar feature to the reproach, so that such a consideration as this would help us in bearing the reproach together.

J.T. I think that you will find that those who go out will come back with their band, lanterns, torches and weapons; one has seen it often. They are sure to come back.

H.D'A.C. But they are still powerless.

J.T. That is the thing to see.

J.B.C-l. I was thinking rather of the way in which they might affect the position of those from whom they have separated.

J.T. I think departure from the truth began with Judas, in his apostasy. Now, the only hope for those who move in that direction is to give up the band. The lanterns and torches denote the miserable darkness in which they move, as compared with the light there is in the circle in which Christ is.

G.F.M. What do you mean by 'they came back'?

J.T. They do come back. They go out; they move away out of feeling -- one natural feeling or another, influenced by Satan, but they will not let you alone. They are hostile to the truth and they are sure to come back. But they come back in this despicable way as a band with lanterns, etc. The

position in regard to the Lord, however, is magnificent. The Lord says, "I am he". It is like the ark. It is the testimony to His Person. They went backwards and fell to the ground; that is the position.

Rem. They come back to attack the position.

J.T. They do.

Rem. The Lord went out to meet them.

J.T. Yes; we can reckon on that now.

A.N. Syria was confederate with Israel, but the Lord comes in a special way. "God is with us". Isaiah 8:10 There is combined opposition, but it only serves to bring out the glory as acting for the saints.

J.T. And Jehovah says to Ahaz, "Ask thee a sign of the Lord thy God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above". Isaiah 7:11 You may go as high as ever you like for God has infinite resources. Whatever you ask it is all there. The combination would be easily shattered if Ahaz simply asked. That is the position. As we had it last night, the ultimate result is seen mainly in Hezekiah; in Isaiah he answers to the glory. What can the Assyrian do? "The daughter of Zion hath despised thee and laughed thee to scorn". 2 Kings 19:21 God was there. The Assyrian had come up reaching even to the neck, but only to be broken in pieces, for God is with us.

H.D'A.C. "They have slept their sleep; and none of the men of might have found their hands", Psalm 76:5

F.W. Do you think the close of Isaiah 6 comes out here -- the "holy seed"? Isaiah 6:13

J.T. That is what our brother was remarking. It encourages us as to the day of small things. The tenth was there -- the holy seed. One was noticing in the book of Genesis what care there was in the selection of wives for the patriarchs to secure family equality, to ensure a wholly right seed. The principle begins in Genesis 1; "whose seed is in itself". Genesis 1:12 The seed must be right, and I think John brings out the

right seed. "Everyone who practises righteousness is begotten of him". 1 John 2:29 The seed is marked by righteousness, and love, and holiness. John's epistle leads us up to Him that is holy and Him that is true.

J.J. What is the point in Peter's cutting off the servant's ear; what feature is that?

J.T. We are often disposed to do that, are we not? To cut off the right ear of a man means that you deprive him of the avenue for the thoughts of God to enter into his mind.

H.D'A.C. It shows that Peter was not under the influence of the glory at the moment.

J.M. "If ... ye seek me let these go their way". How does that apply at the moment?

J.T. It is that the Lord shows His interest, His unselfish care for us. He goes into the conflict before us; we can reckon on that. But I was thinking of the ear; in Psalm 40 we read "ears hast thou prepared me". Psalm 40:6 John brings out the Lord as devoting Himself to the will of God. He came to carry out the will of God, and His ears were opened; He took the place of obedience. The mind of God enters through the ear, and to cut off a man's right ear is to run counter to the thought of the Lord for the moment. His thought is to bring about in us what is becoming in men, to hear what God has to say.

H.D'A.C. The first time we hear of Jesus doing anything is that He was hearing and asking questions. Swift to hear is an important word. It is a great point to hear today.

P.L. Do things at this point answer to the synagogue of Satan? The Lord will deal with that.

J.T. "I will make them to come and worship before thy feet". Revelation 3:9 I think the address to Philadelphia corresponds with what we are speaking of -- the supremacy of Christ in the way He acts for the saints -- in what He does.

P.L. And as following the way of glory does He not assure us of a sphere of glory?

J.T. Quite. The overcomer is to be made a pillar in the temple of His God.

J.B.C-I. This would help us to discard the sword in this connection. It was an instrument neither a shepherd nor a fisherman needed.

THE MORE EXCELLENT WAY (4)

John 20

J.T. It may be well to remark that the object in these readings is not to attempt to unfold the great truths that are conveyed in this gospel, but rather to seek to show the bearing of them as formative, having the last days in view, so that we should be in correspondence with Christ. I think that a clearer understanding of the bearing of chapters 14, 15, 16 and 17 is necessary, so as to understand this chapter, which is the crowning one. Those chapters are not rightly understood unless we see that the Lord has the whole history of the assembly in His mind, and that provision is made in them for His people to the end.

E.M. Do you view chapter 20 as the climax?

J.T. Yes; those we have considered culminate in it.

F.W. What is the outstanding glory in this chapter?

J.T. The ascension of Christ and our relationship with Him as His brethren; that gives the great moral elevation that is intended to characterise the saints of this period. There were in the pattern of the house given by the Spirit to David, upper chambers and inner chambers, treasuries, and the house of the mercy- seat; these accord with John's point of view. We have to look for these features, and I think that this chapter would correspond with the "upper" and "inner" chambers. To shine in the courts we have to understand the upper and inner chambers, and the house of the mercy-seat. The treasuries refer to the depositories of the precious dedicated things of God.

P.B. These privileges are what God intended them to have part with Him in?

J.T. Whatever the Lord is going on with now is in view in chapter 13. What He has to say in chapter 14 is peculiarly touching; it is what He is to be to us, not exactly what we are to Him; He speaks of the things that are available for us throughout the whole history of the saints in this dispensation. He is seen there more as a Mediator using all His influence, so to speak, on high for us. His name is established there in that God has glorified Him in Himself, and the Holy Spirit is here also, as sent in His name.

P.B. He knows all about the upper and inner chambers.

J.T. He does, and He searches into the depths of God. The Holy Spirit is here as begged for by Christ; He is here as sent by the Father in His name; so that all that He is is brought in to us, and all for us; that is chapter 14.

P.B. Then He has to wash our feet to bring us to that.

J.T. What a precious thing that is! There is too the presence of the Spirit as another Comforter, not as meeting our individual state exactly, but with us as a divine Person, so that the door is opened in a positive way from heaven to us; there is direct spiritual access from heaven for the Father and the Son to come in, and that at all times. Then chapter 15 is a mixed state of things where branches are supposed to exist that do not bear fruit, and the Father is dealing in that sphere in a disciplinary way to remove them. That phase also runs down to the end; we can reckon on the government of God in that connection; it has to say to that. Then in chapter 16 the Holy Spirit is known as bringing demonstration of certain things to the world -- a demonstration of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment. All moral things

are adjusted in the testimony that the presence of the Holy Spirit here brings. There is the conviction present of sin, righteousness, and judgment; these moral things are all adjusted in the presence of the Spirit. The Spirit Himself is besides an immense moral support to the people of God.

H.D'A.C. How does He demonstrate these things?

J.T. Well, the Lord says, "of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father, and ye behold me no longer; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged". John 16:9 - 11. I understand that the presence of the Spirit in Jerusalem in the disciples of Jesus was God's answer to the judgment of the Jews.

H.D'A.C. Do you mean the very fact of the Spirit having come?

J.T. Having come to the followers of Jesus -- the Lord's disciples; they had been identified with Him. The superscription on the cross was: "Jesus the Nazaraean, the king of the Jews". John 19:19 It was written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin. It was a public committal, we may say. It was written by the Roman governor as the crime for which He was put to death. I suppose, if there were criminal annals in Jerusalem that would be the record. There is no question about it, the world has committed itself to that. Now they professed to be acting for God in that. The matter, therefore, is in God's hands. What will the issue be? God raised Christ; that was private, the world did not see it, but when the Holy Spirit came to the followers of the Nazaraean (for that was the superscription) He was there undeniably and it was no private matter, it was a public thing. When the Spirit came down there had come from heaven a sound as of a rushing, mighty wind, and there appeared cloven tongues as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. It was undeniable that the Holy Spirit had come in to those Nazaraeans from Jesus in

heaven; God decided the matter. Jesus had said, "I go to the Father", John 14:12 and the Holy Spirit had come in from the Father. The Father is supreme, and if Jesus went to the Father, then the Jews had committed a dreadful crime, and God made them to know it.

H.D'A.C. The Supreme Court of Appeal declared itself then!

J.T. Quite; that I think is just what it was, because it was a question of righteousness -- whether the courts were righteous or otherwise. God has decided it was a crime to put Him to death. Righteousness is in favour of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit has brought the testimony of that to this world.

H.E.F. "Of judgment", John 16:11 what is your thought of that here?

J.T. The prince of this world is judged. It was he who brought all this about; he was the instigator of all, but God is the sovereign Ruler, Lord of the heaven and of the earth; Satan was only the prince of this world. God has jurisdiction over both. The prince of this world committed a crime; he is guilty, and he is judged.

H.E.F. Do you mean that the saints are brought to the apprehension of all these things?

J.T. That is what I understand. It is not a question of the world itself being convicted subjectively, but the thing is brought in here as a testimony.

Rem. So that the world is fully exposed to us.

J.T. That is it. The testimony is in those who have the Spirit.

A.N. The demonstration is in view of the position being clear to the disciples, is it not? It is not so much the effect toward the world.

J.T. No; we, as having the Spirit, understand how matters are; so that the testimony is here.

P.L. Does this go with the "witness" in John's first epistle?

J.T. I think so -- "God has given to us eternal life", 1 John 5:11. This (John 16) is the basis on which all punitive judgment will be administered. God's case is clear. He overcomes when in judgment. It is now out morally, for He establishes the thing morally before He acts.

H.E.F. We see, therefore, that God's judgment is morally right.

J.T. That is it, and all shall see it. He is bearing witness to it now, so that when He executes the judgment it is known to be right.

J.B.C-l. What is the object in the Lord's way in chapter 20? Is it to relieve the spirits of His own from the pressure of death? What came as pressure on the Lord's spirit and how He bore it, seems to have been set before us much in the other scriptures you have dealt with, but the Lord, free from all that pressure, seems to be solicitous as to the pressure upon the spirits of His own.

J.T. You mean that He is free now, and He would bring them into that liberty? In chapters 18 and 19 we have what may be regarded as the altar. Before coming to chapter 20 there must be something for us by way of pattern in those two chapters. I have noticed that in the anointing of the tabernacle, in Leviticus 8:11, before the sacrifices are brought in, the altar was anointed seven times.

H.D'A.C. What do you gather from that?

J.T. Well, it seems as if the Holy Spirit would call special attention to the altar in the divine system. If it were anointed, as it is said to have been, seven times, special attention is called to it -- not the sacrifices as yet that were offered on it, but the thing itself. I believe it refers to the closing chapters of the Lord's life, that is, after He was arrested.

E.J.McB. Do you look upon the seven times as governing the whole period here outwardly?

J.T. It would seem that the Holy Spirit as the

anointing enters into that feature of our position in a peculiar way. Perhaps more has been made, and is being made, of the sacrifice than of the altar.

E.J.McB. Do you look then upon the altar as indicating the conditions of approach?

J.T. I think it refers to the moral power that marked the Lord, particularly when taken by the Jews in the garden. He has no support outwardly at all, He is alone, and the moral power that shines commands your attention. How dignified He was! Satan had designed all these circumstances to humiliate the Lord in the last degree. He had power in Himself to extricate Himself, but He was there in obedience to the will of God; He was laying down His life -- "I lay it down of myself" John 10:18 -- and it had to be laid down in this way. So it is the moral dignity and power of the Lord that shine in these two chapters -- "who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God". Hebrews 9:14

H.D'A.C. That is very fine, but I do not quite understand why you call that an altar.

J.T. Because I understand it is in that connection that sacrifice is actually made. The altar was three cubits high and five square; three indicates there was power, and five that there was weakness -- "He has been crucified in weakness". 2 Corinthians 13:4. I do not say that this is exclusively in these chapters, indeed it is included in the other gospels.

H.D'A.C. John would be more the "three" size, would it not?

J.T. That is what I thought.

P.L. Would the altar be more what He is in the sense of how He bore the suffering?

J.T. It is that which sustains the offering. Many might offer and be out of keeping with the offering. The second letter to the Corinthians is to bring about a state suitable to the offering -- "the Lord loveth a cheerful giver"; it is the spirit of the thing.

H.D'A.C. Then does the brass of the altar come out in this part?

J.T. The brass, I suppose, denoted God's thought of sin; that would come out in the other gospels more -- it became God. The metal of the altar represented what is suitable to God.

H.E.F. Do you mean that the appreciation of Christ as the altar would produce a moral element in us answering to it?

J.T. That is the reason why I mentioned it by way of analogy. In the second letter to Corinthians 2 Corinthians 9:5 the apostle speaks of their gift "not as got out of you". In your gift you are to have the spirit that becomes it. Whatever you do by way of sacrifice, the thing is to be in keeping with it; there is to be that moral dignity underneath.

Ques. Is that the thought in "the altar that sanctifieth the gift" -- "whether is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifieth the gift"? Matthew 23:19

J.T. Quite.

Ques. In the book of Numbers the altar was to be covered with a purple cloth when the camp set forward. Is there any connection between that and what you have in your mind?

J.T. There is; purple denoted royalty, but the answer to royalty now is suffering. The anointing oil indicated that; myrrh, which signifies suffering, was one of the principal ingredients in it.

P.L. So that "the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, it is more blessed to give than to receive", Acts 20:35 would confirm what you are speaking of?

J.T. I think so, suffering is necessarily connected with the altar.

Ques. Does suffering produce this state in us, bringing us to cheerfulness in giving?

J.T. I think the principle of the altar is that in making sacrifices you are in keeping with them.

A.N. Abraham built an altar, but the burnt

offering was distinct from the altar. With Abraham there was the principle of surrender, and he bound Isaac upon the altar.

J.H. Would the principle be in the apostle when he says, "thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life"? 2 Timothy 3:10

J.T. Quite. As you look into these chapters, you are bound to admire the moral dignity and the majesty with which the Lord met the forces of evil. He is ever Himself, never ruffled, never a word out of place and His silence speaks.

J.B. Would it be preparatory in that way to what comes out in chapter 20; the saints taking their place with Christ as the ascended One giving them dignity to be associated with Him in the knowledge of His Father as their Father, His God as their God?

J.T. Suffering has a great effect on us; it is given to us to suffer for His sake.

E.J.McB. Your suggestion of connecting the peculiar dignity of Christ in these circumstances with the altar makes it very evident that no one could take His life from Him.

J.T. He was laying down His life of Himself, and He was supreme in it. The enemy was allowed to bring his most wicked devices to bear upon the Lord, for it became God "in bringing many sons to glory to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings". Hebrews 2:10

J.F. Why do you get that in connection with bringing many sons to glory?

J.T. It is by way of suffering -- by way of the crucible.

H.E.F. "Bringing many sons to glory". Hebrews 2:10 Is that the glory you have in your mind -- what the saints are being invested with now?

J.T. Yes, it does not say "bringing many sons to heaven", but "to glory". In the passage we had

yesterday, Proverbs 25, we read, "The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable. Take away the dross from the silver, and there cometh forth a vessel for the refiner". Proverbs 25:3,4. I think the consideration of this feature of suffering in regard of what we have before us has that effect -- you have a vessel, a vessel fitted for glory. We are vessels of mercy, fitted for glory, as it says. Well, the dross has to be removed. I do not say that that is all that is in the suffering, because if the dross is removed, the suffering may be still there, e.g., Paul says, "I rejoice in sufferings for you, and I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh". Colossians 1:24. It is a divine design that we should go the way of suffering, and we do so as following our Leader.

J.J. So you regard these chapters more as a pattern?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. They are much more than that, but our thought now is to see the pattern there.

P.L. Stephen followed his great Leader in that way. "Having said this he fell asleep". Acts 7:60

J.J. I suppose that explains the fact that the forsaking of the Lord is not found in John's gospel.

J.T. We do not get the actual fact, but this thought of suffering, and being in correspondence in the suffering with the sacrifice we make, is of immense value to us, as forming the vessel.

H.D'A.C. Solomon's altar was too small to receive the offerings, was it not? That is in great contrast with Christ.

Rem. Will you say a little more about correspondence in the suffering with the sacrifice?

J.T. That is what the chapter would help us in, for it all refers to the investiture with the glory. Peter says in chapter 1 of his first epistle: "Wherein ye exult for a little while at present, if needed, put to

grief by various trials, that the proving of your faith, much more precious than of gold which perishes, though it be proved by fire, be found to praise and glory and honour in the revelation of Jesus Christ; whom, having not seen, ye love; on whom, though not now looking but believing, ye exult with joy unspeakable and filled with the glory". 1 Peter 1:6 - 8 Notice that: "filled with the glory"; that is a present thing, and it comes in in connection with present suffering.

W.H. Would that be seen in the fact that Solomon's altar was the same size as the oracle in length and breadth; 2 Chronicles 3:8; 2 Chronicles 4:1? There is a correspondence.

J.T. That is very suggestive. Our brother just remarked that Solomon's altar was not great enough to receive all the sacrifices, which would be another thought.

J.B.C-l. We read of the offering being bound to the altar, and I thought the sufferings of Christ really preserved the offering in keeping with the altar.

Ques. Would that be the altar sanctifying the gift?

J.B.C-l. I thought so. It is the manner of His exit we have in John's gospel. He has no helpers, He bore His own cross. It is the dignity of His Person in the accomplishment of His work for the glory of God.

Ques. Would suffering bring us nearer to the heart of Christ so that we might be formed in His love?

J.T. Well, you feel that you are with Him in a peculiar way in suffering, and you want to be in it in moral dignity, in power, so that you are not chafed or irritated, nor show resentment, nor seek relief from it. The principle is entire and unqualified submission to the will of God.

G.E. What does that verse mean: "Sacrifice and offering thou willedst not, but thou hast prepared me a body"? Hebrews 10:5

J.T. I think that is what the Lord had in mind. The principle of the altar is, "Lo, I come to do thy will". Hebrews 10:9 Whatever that will involved, He was prepared for it.

A.N. All suffering would not have this character, would it? It is special. Is it suffering at the hand of man?

J.T. Quite; so Peter says, "The Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you" 1 Peter 4:14 in that connection.

A.N. Is that what Peter speaks of as suffering for righteousness' sake? Or would it go further?

J.T. I do not think John goes beyond that; he does not bring in suffering from the hand of God.

A.N. It would be in direct relation to the testimony then.

P.L. "The disciple standing by whom he loved" John 19:26 -- would there be any connection in that?

J.T. "By the cross of Jesus stood his mother, and the sister of his mother, Mary, the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. Jesus, therefore, seeing his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved" John 19:25,26 -- they were there; they represented the extreme of affection.

Rem. If we do not learn to suffer there is misrepresentation. Peter misrepresented things; he had not learnt to suffer.

J.T. He misrepresented things by cutting off the ear of the bondman of the high priest; he missed the great feature of the moment.

R.B. God brings many sons to glory by allowing us to suffer.

J.T. I think suffering is a refining process; it gives you a lustre; you are in keeping with your Leader.

R.B. You have in mind the ultimate investiture of the glory.

J.D. Do we find at the close of chapter 19 two

timid ones prepared for the suffering in Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus? They are prepared to come out into the light now, and are ready for suffering.

J.T. Yes; John would bring in every little bit of the work of God. That is a point of importance.

J.B. Do you think that the teaching of the nineteenth chapter would in that way add dignity to the saints?

J.T. I think it does. Wisdom's house is built on seven pillars; it involves that every bit of the work of God is taken account of. You cannot build on one man. One man may lead, and may deliver a city; he may by laying down his life work out deliverance, but in building a house we must have "seven"; wisdom requires that, and therefore we cannot leave out Nicodemus. We have Mary Magdalene shining in lustre, but both Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus shine, too.

A.G. I was going to ask if, in chapter 19, we view the ark going down into the Jordan and we stand two thousand cubits off.

J.T. That is it. He is in the enemies' hands first. They do not know what they are dealing with, but it means their overthrow, like Dagon of the Philistines. He actually goes down into death. The article of death was touched, not here as a victim, but as invading the domain of Satan -- overthrowing him in his own stronghold. That is what is in view here. By observing the 2,000 cubits we may follow after Him. There were men in David's day who went over the Jordan when it overflowed its banks, and the waters were not dried up at all; 1 Chronicles 12:15. It is a question, as Jeremiah says, "how wilt thou do in the swelling of Jordan?" Jeremiah 12:5 That is what we might learn in these chapters. Stephen is an example of a man in the swelling of Jordan. The waters were dried up for him by faith: but then there were the

forces of Satan there with their weapons and stones, and it is the superiority which marks that man that enables us to see what it is to be here in correspondence with the altar.

F.W. The feet of the priests touched the water -- that was in the swelling of Jordan.

J.T. That was the Lord touching it -- the waters fled. The fame thereof was heard; it was the destruction of death. The Lord invaded that domain and overthrew Satan in it by his own weapons; He annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light. Psalm 114 brings that out more than any of the Old Testament scriptures: "The sea saw it and fled: the Jordan turned back .... What ailed thee, thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou turnedst back?" Psalm 114:3,5 Well, it was the presence of the Lord; God was there. I think it agrees with the truth in John. He turns the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters. That is what He has done. The sea is overthrown, people are brought through it, and the Jordan is driven back. But there is more than that: there is the flint, and the rock, and John shows how you get the pool and fountain of water; "who turned the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters". Psalm 114:8 I think that is John's ministry.

J.B.C-I. Referring to the place that suffering has in this, does John 20 raise a question as to how far our suffering centres in Christ?

J.T. I think Mary Magdalene presents the result of all this. She was at the cross. John in his way brings out the subjective in the woman; the brightest things are seen in women in John; Mary was morally equal to be the messenger to carry the message; but in regard to the chapter itself, it involves the inlet into eternity. This gospel prepares us for eternal things, not simply things relating to the promises of God, or His purpose regarding the earth, but things

that existed before the world. By careful comparison, it will be noticed that there is no reference to the Sabbath in this chapter, whereas Matthew and Mark and Luke link on what is said about the resurrection with the Sabbath.

F.I. So being of an eternal character it is connected with the first day of the week.

J.T. Yes. "The first day of the week" is the new beginning -- there is nothing before it. The Lord by His remarks throughout this gospel had been preparing the disciples for this. He says, "No one has gone up to heaven save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven"; John 3:13 and again, "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" John 6:62 He also says, "Father, I will that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world"; John 17:24 and, "Glorify thou me ... with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". John 17:5 They heard all that and the way is now open for it. He is, as it were, a hind let loose, and He is now prepared to introduce His loved ones into what is eternal.

W.S.L. Does the first day of the week suggest the bringing in of a new order of things?

J.T. Not only a new order of things, but an order before which there was nothing; for Adam was only a figure of Him that was to come. It was no afterthought. The Word became flesh in John. "In the beginning was the Word". John 1:1

E.J.McB. Morally there was no week before this.

J.T. Exactly.

W.S.L. It is an eternal order of things.

J.T. The Sabbath being referred to in the synoptic gospels means, as far as I can see, that the previous week is recognised.

J.F. Is that implied in His words, "I ascend"?

J.T. I think so, and His Father is ours, and His God is ours.

J.B.C-I. Would the eighth day suppose the gathering up of all the results of the Spirit's work, and the eternal union of the heavens and the earth for the divine pleasure?

J.T. No doubt. Thomas being there would, I suppose, represent the Jewish side.

L.D.M. Say a word as to the breaking of bread in that connection.

J.T. The breaking of bread is connected with the first day of the week, but the Lord's supper is more connected with the Lord's day, which would have reference to the testimony of God. The breaking of bread brings in the Lord as Head.

A.N. What is the distinct thought connected with each?

J.T. The breaking of bread is more often spoken of than the Lord's supper. The latter is mentioned only once, and where the expression is used, we read, "For as often as ye shall eat this bread and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord until he come". 1 Corinthians 11:26 It has reference to the public testimony of God. Anyone present could see us eating, but the memorial is another thing. The memorial of Christ is the breaking of bread: "This do in remembrance of me". Luke 22:19, 1 Corinthians 11:24. That makes room for Him, and hence it is, in Acts 20, formally connected with the first day of the week, and what is more important still is that in that chapter you have the truth of the assembly in its heavenly -- I may say, its eternal -- relation; the whole counsel of God, which goes back before the foundation of the world, is involved in that.

J.J. Why does John omit the breaking of bread?

J.T. He does not refer to the Lord's supper at all; Luke does. The latter refers to it in his gospel,

supporting Paul, and he refers to it in Acts 2 and 20. In chapter 20 he formally connects it with the first day of the week.

F.I. What is the significance with regard to John in the Revelation when he speaks of being in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and not on the first day of the week?

J.T. The Lord's day there would have in view all that was about to be unfolded -- the rights of the Lord, His authority on earth.

F.W.B. Did you say that the Supper is connected with the Lord's day? What do you mean by the Lord's day in that connection?

J.T. It is the dominical day; He has got authority over your soul, therefore it fits in with the public testimony of God. In the synoptic gospels the resurrection is connected with the Sabbath, that is to say, there was a previous week in which God had been witnessing. The assembly comes into that as in the type of Rebekah; she comes into Sarah's tent. But Eve is the primary thought of the assembly, she does not come into any other tent, she is just the counterpart of Adam; all the others are provisional types. God reverts to the primary thought in the assembly.

J.M. The Supper is the public side, and the memorial would be more the inward.

J.T. So here you have the first day of the week.

P.L. Would the Supper suggest more what the assembly is for Him, and the memorial be more what the assembly is to Him?

J.T. Quite.

A.N. Is the memorial side connected with our entrance into privilege?

J.T. It is; He is called to mind and gets His place as Head.

Ques. Why do we so often refer to John's ministry when partaking of the Supper?

J.T. It is to bring in the spirit that is becoming to it.

J.J. Do you refer to the Lord's side as suggesting the rib taken out of Adam?

J.T. That is what we have here -- "He showed to them his hands and his side", what He had done for them and His love to them. I think the allusion is to Adam's rib.

J.B.C-I. Does John give us the love that lies behind the Supper more? That would explain why it is essential we should get over to John's side if the Lord is to manifest Himself to us.

H.E.F. Is the ark over Jordan here?

J.T. Yes. "The hind of the morning" suggests resurrection; the Lord is free now, that is the end in view in all this. Love sees Him coming in, as in the Canticles; "the voice of my beloved! Behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills". Song of Songs 2:8 It is the freedom with which the Lord moves about in His love visits, and He stands behind our wall, showing Himself through the lattice. All that means He is gathering up the loved ones.

W.S.L. Does the Supper bring the Lord in, in that way answering to chapter 14?

J.T. I think so. He comes in according to chapter 14 by way of manifestation; it is not there as Leader; chapter 14 does not go so far as that. The headship of Christ involves that He carries you to the highest place.

H.E.F. Say a word as to the "breathing", and "as the Father sent me forth, I also send you".

J.T. That is the great end of the testimony -- that we should correspond with Him. As He came out fully representative of the Father, so those who have His breath are to be like Him. I think that "the house of the mercy-seat" 1 Chronicles 28:12, understood would enable us to come out in the spirit of forgiveness. "Having said this, he breathed into

them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit", as if to qualify them for this service to forgive and to retain.

J.B.C-l. Would this be bound up with the thought in chapter 6: "He that eateth me even he shall live by me" John 6:57 -- the affections of the saints centred in Christ personally? Their support in connection with the Lord Himself would be in the measure in which they fed on Him.

J.T. Quite; so there is representation. The thought of God is that the spirit of forgiveness as it shone in Christ should be in us: "Whose soever sins ye remit they are remitted to them".

H.D'A.C. He does not here send them forth to preach as He does in the other gospels; it is more that the spirit, the breath of Christ, is to characterise them.

J.T. It is largely a question now of remitting sins.

H.D'A.C. How would you help on that line?

J.T. My impression is that it is assembly sins we have to remit -- sins committed in the circle in which the Lord's name is nominally owned. This spirit must underlie the principle of gathering now. Believers mixed up with human organisations are ignorant of the evil they are guilty of; but they are sinning nevertheless, and when conviction of this is brought home, there is to be evidence that there is forgiveness.

R.G. Has the breathing reference to God breathing into Adam?

J.T. I think it has; it exalts Christ in that, instead of God breathing into Him, He breathes into them. The last Adam is a life-giving Spirit, and I think this is the proof of it.

R.G. Then it shows that there is a new generation with His life and His Spirit.

J.T. I think that is what God is bringing about now. That is the spirit you look for.

J.J. It supposes having followed Him all through, and gone up, and come out again.

J.T. That is it. Not only have you the life of a Man who has ascended, but you have it in this most intimate way. He breathed into them.

W.S.L. You referred to retention of sins.

J.T. That would refer to nominal Christians who refuse to bow to the truth and who take up an apostate attitude; for instance, Jezebel is outside the pale of forgiveness; she will not repent.

J.B. There would be a certain correspondence with Christ in the spirit of forgiveness in us.

J.T. That is the attitude you take up with all Christians.

F.I. Does the breathing come in as the result of the appreciation of the ascension glory you were speaking of?

J.T. I think the Lord is now regarding them as brought to this. Mary is the link subjectively. I do not think the disciples themselves were equal to it.

F.I. I wonder if they showed their appreciation, because it says the doors were shut for fear of the Jews.

J.B.C-l. In the Lord dealing with Peter in the last chapter, has that to do with the character of remission, since it follows the fact that he had gone fishing and the others with him?

J.T. The Lord probed him to the bottom, and apparently the others were present.

J.B.C-l. Had there been retention, there would have been a hindrance to their going together in the way of testimony.

J.T. John says, "It is the Lord". John 21:7 They were not afraid of Him, they knew there was forgiveness with Him.

REPRESENTATION

2 Timothy 2:19; Revelation 3:7,8; John 20:19 - 23

What I have before me is to speak of representation. It being God's thought to be represented, His thought can never be relinquished, even when, as in our own times, that in which He was represented here, now grossly misrepresents Him. There is the most gross misrepresentation possible of God and of Christ in that which claims the place of divine representation in this world; and my desire, dear brethren, is to show, with the Lord's help, how God would bring us to the divine thought in regard of this, fitting us for it and maintaining us in it. It was said, "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" Psalm 11:3. But the foundation is not destroyed, and hence the way is open for the righteous. And not only so, but as the passage in 2 Timothy shows, the righteous has in his possession the seal of representation -- a most important provision for a day in which, as I said, God is grossly misrepresented, Christ is grossly misrepresented, and the truth concerning the vessel in which the representation should be seen, is wholly given up. We have in our possession a seal; it is not, as you will observe, that we are sealed, true as that is, for He who has anointed us and sealed us, and given us the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts, is God; 2 Corinthians 1:21. That is not what is alluded to here, but rather a mandate from God for the righteous. Behind it must lie the great truth of the vessel in which the divine mandate, as I may say, was primarily vested.

Now that leads one to think of the place the assembly was intended to fill in relation to Christ. He is Himself, as we read, the "image of the invisible God". Colossians 1:15 Wonderful fact! -- that in a Man here in this

world, coming in in the lowliest, most unpretentious way, there should be the image of the invisible God!

He represented God, beloved, in His creation, and then, as it is said, He is the "Firstborn of all creation", Colossians 1:15. But He is the image of God. Adam presents to us the first great feature of representation of God. "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. In the representation of God here, it was His thought that Christ should have the assembly, and God has not relinquished that. All the service of Christ and of the Spirit in our day is to bring us back to the assembly's place and function in relation to Christ who is the image of God; for the full representation of God here, according to the early chapters of Genesis, involved the woman. "In the day when they were created", we are told, "He called their name Adam", Genesis 5:2. It was not only that the man should not be alone, but in the day they were created, He called their name Adam. They represented one great divine thought; they were to be the representatives -- or jointly the representative -- of God in the creation. And God has not surrendered that thought. The assembly was here at the outset in that way. She stood out as in relation to Christ in the primary thought of God; she also stood out in relation to Him as meeting conditions that arose consequent on sin; but it is of all importance to recognise that she was here in the light of Ephesians as the companion of Christ, answering to the divine thought before the worlds. The first great type of the assembly has nothing to do with sin, and unless we understand what that is -- what the upper and inner chambers of the house represent 1 Chronicles 28:11 -- we shall not understand how to shine in the provisional relation to Christ.

But then in meeting the consequences of sin God develops typically His testimony; and so we have

to distinguish John's presentation of the resurrection and the ascension of Christ from that presented by the other evangelists. Matthew, Mark and Luke present the resurrection of Christ in relation to previous dealings of God; you will find the link with the Sabbath maintained, whereas John emphasises the first day of the week, signifying that Christ will have the assembly, or the saints who form it, first of all in relation to eternal thoughts. John begins, not with previous dates in the development of God's ways, but he goes back before the foundation of the world: "In the beginning". John 1:1 We have to understand the assembly as belonging to eternity, and that is what John presents to us. We have access in that light to the eternal thoughts of God, where we see the glory that Christ had with the Father before the world began.

But then there were the subsequent things. And so Rebekah comes in in type as a companion for Christ in view of Israel's decease; for the moment Israel is gone, and dear brethren, the assembly is to be the companion of Christ for His comfort in the tent of Sarah. I think the synoptic gospels have in view "Sarah's tent". Genesis 24:67 They contemplate it as empty, but they provide in the assembly an occupant for that tent; she is now occupying Israel's place and the Lord would have us to remember that. No true believer, no true lover of Christ, can forget or disregard the place that Israel had with Christ. We cannot but feel, we cannot but be moved, beloved, by the tears of Christ, as He saw Jerusalem. We are often touched by the tears of Christ at the grave of Lazarus, but He wept as He beheld the city. Was it nothing to Christ that His city should be indifferent to Him? Ah, beloved, how he loved it, as Moses said of Jehovah, "Yea, he loved the people!" Deuteronomy 33:3. "How often", He says, "would I have gathered thee!" Luke 13:34 No love of Christ.

had been effective in His dealings with regard to Israel. He needs comfort (speaking reverently); God will bring us to that. Receiving Rebekah, Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother.

But then He has the assembly, as I said, outside of all that, for it was not an afterthought; it was a primary thought. It were degrading to the assembly to assume that it was an afterthought; it was a primary thought. And so as glorified among the Gentiles, Joseph says, "God has made me to forget all my toil and all my father's house"; so in regard of Christ, He forgets in this wonderful relation of the assembly; Genesis 41:51. Then we get fruitfulness in Ephraim, denoting that he has got a wholly new generation. How great a thought it is, that Christ is among us. "Christ among you", the apostle says, "the hope of glory". Colossians 1:27.

But then there is the testimony of God, and all that it involves; Moses represents that. He forsook Egypt. He did not share the glory of Joseph for another king had arisen who knew not Joseph; "by faith he forsook Egypt". Hebrews 11:27. We are now in the presence of the testimony of God, the faithful and true witness, and so in Moses' wife we have a companion for Christ as the vessel of God's testimony. This latter involves not only Israel, but every divine thought. No lover of Christ in this relation will despise the very least of the testimonies of God; whether the sun, moon or stars, everything is of interest in the testimony of Christ. It is Moses who brings in the great truth of creation, dispelling all the mists of heathen darkness from our minds. We have the true God; we have Him in all His testimonies in the heavens and upon the earth. The assembly is linked up with Christ in that way. We are the companion of Him who unfolds the mind of God, who is the Word, the faithful and true Witness, the Alpha and Omega. Wonderful place! The more

you understand the relation of Moses' wife to him, the more you will cherish every thought of God, even in nature. As it says, "Doth not even nature itself teach you". 1 Corinthians 11:14 Some of us are very cramped in regard of these things, but Moses would unfold to us the whole testimony of God.

And then we have what is an integral part of all this, and that is, the battles -- the wars of the Lord. David was anointed in regard to the enemies of God. He was anointed in regard to the ark, that it should have its place. He says, "We heard of it at Ephratah; we found it in the fields of the wood ... I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob", Psalm 132:4 - 6. What an undertaking! If he did not fully grasp it, God knew; and in the anointing of David we have the divine challenge to every foe in heaven and upon earth. Satan quickly comes forward with his mightiest instrument, but David brings him down. We see one now in the conflict, fighting the battles of the Lord. "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?" 1 Samuel 17:26 And then Abigail, representing the assembly, comes to light, "My lord", she says, "fights the battles of Jehovah". 1 Samuel 25:28. Do we apprehend the Lord in that light? Are we prepared to forsake our Nabals, and become part of that which is His companion? "The woman", it says, "was of good understanding, and withal of a beautiful countenance". 1 Samuel 25:3 That, I think, is what God is bringing about today in a peculiar way -- the good understanding and the beautiful countenance. "I speak", says the apostle, "as to intelligent persons". 1 Corinthians 10:15 The Lord's supper is introduced in that connection; it is a test to our intelligence. The effect is that it builds up a constitution which is seen, which is manifest in the countenance. David himself was "beautiful-eyed" we are told. We are now coming

to personal distinctions, personal distinctiveness. As he appeared in the midst of his brethren it is said he was ruddy, lovely eyed, and of a beautiful appearance. And so Abigail is a fit companion for him. He is fighting the battles of the Lord. Let us not assume for a moment that these battles are over. It is one after another, and for David one battle after another meant one victory after another, one triumph after another; there was nothing to fear. Abigail recognised that he was fighting the battles of the Lord, that "the souls of thine enemies them shall he sling out as out of the middle of a sling", and that the soul of her lord would be "bound in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God", 1 Samuel 25:29.

Now all these thoughts underlie this remarkable mandate in 2 Timothy, for Timothy was well acquainted with Paul's doctrine. "Thou hast fully known", he says, "my doctrine and manner of life". 2 Timothy 3:10 He understood the assembly and the assembly's place, and he understood the manner of life of the great apostle. And so, as the foundations were not destroyed, he was to go forth with a mandate, as it were. And what is that? You say, I thought we were in days not marked by officialism, and yet you are speaking about a seal of office. But God never relinquishes any thought of His, and in the darkest day He intends representation. It is, however, on moral grounds and not formally official. I can go forth to those who call on His name professedly, and say, I have a mandate. I have authority from God -- here is the seal written on both sides as it were, "the Lord knoweth them that are his". How many of us carry this seal about? It was in the power of it that the great revival came about from which we are all benefiting now, and it remains. "The Lord knoweth them that are his". There is not one of them in the whole world who is not perfectly known

to Christ; and if the Lord know those that are His, He never withdraws His eyes from one of them. He makes His circuit, as we read of Samuel -- "he went from year to year in circuit to Bethel and Gilgal and Mizpeh", 1 Samuel 7:16. Let us be assured of it, beloved, that the Lord in His circuit pays attention to everyone. But He does it mediately, He does it, in the main, through His servants; He would employ us. As walking in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks, He is judging what you do for Him, what I do for Him; this is what the Lord is doing. "The Lord knoweth them that are his". We cannot forget them; we cannot shut our hearts against them. They belong to us; they belong to the Lord. We are entitled to claim them.

Then the other side is, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". We have this seal in our possession on moral grounds -- the power of representation. Although God is falsified on every hand, there is in those who hold the seal and act on it, a representation of God, and it means deliverance, for a true witness delivereth souls. There is no other way out, it is a divinely appointed representation of God, in a day of general departure. He has opened up the way, and so the Lord says, "I have set before thee an opened door" Revelation 3:8 -- not an open one, but an opened one; the Lord has done it. He has the key of David; as He says, He opens and no one shuts, and He shuts and no one opens; and so "I have set before thee an opened door". How it became opened I think is explained by the seal. We have the way opened for what I may call a little bit of collective representation. I think the Lord has great delight in the return to the collective thought; hence He says, "I have set before thee an opened door, and no man can shut it". So that there is a way open to us, dear friends, a door opened by the Lord in which we, having a little strength as He says,

may represent Him. He says, thou "hast kept my word (it is in that that representation lies) and hast not denied my name". Revelation 3:8 How can those who take on another name represent Christ? It is misrepresentation; whereas this assembly -- Philadelphia -- affording a green spot for Christ, had not misrepresented Him; she had kept the word of His patience, and not denied His name. She had a little power. The Lord appreciates a little collective power, and I think the fact that He does so should be treasured in the keenest way by us. There is no pretension attached to it; it is what the Lord sees and treasures. No misrepresentation; she keeps the word of His patience and does not deny His name.

What I read in John 20 I believe gives the secret of all this; that is, we must apprehend the inner place with Christ. John comes in at the last, as we often remark. He gives the likeness of God; he brings in what is like God. You will remember in Genesis 1 man was to be made in God's image and likeness; but in chapter 5, which involves recovery from departure, we are told that Adam begat a son in his own likeness, after his own image; likeness comes first. You cannot have representation now without likeness. It would be incongruous for God to put His seal to anything to represent Him, apart from His likeness. But John brings in the likeness of God. In John we read "a man come from God", and of Jesus it says, "knowing that he came from God and went to God", John 13:3 those who saw Him saw the Father. You have the likeness of God. Hence Adam begat a son in his own likeness after his own image. God will not have image-representation now without likeness; hence the great service of John's ministry is to bring in likeness; and so we have in this passage the exaltation of Christ, the ascension. "I ascend", He says, "to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God". Dear brethren,

what a precious link for our souls is that well-known message, a message which never wears out; it retains its brilliancy and freshness the more we enter into it. It is constantly living, and links our souls with Christ as ascended to His Father. It is what I may call the "upper and the inner chambers". 1 Chronicles 28:11 You remember when David gave the plan of the house to Solomon we read of its upper and inner chambers. We must understand the upper and inner in order to shine here for God, as Luke presents it. Luke gives us what is representative of God in external moral comeliness and beauty, but John gives the spirit of the thing; he brings in the likeness of God. And so the Lord having spoken to the disciples, breathed into them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you". There is nothing less than that, dear brethren- persons sent out with the Spirit of Christ; as the Father sent Him, so He sent them.

Then He says, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them". That is divine representation. We have in these words as I may say, a warrant for forgiving. How could we be together in the light of the assembly, save on the principle of forgiveness? We have all had to do with the sin of the world and the church, and how could we be together except on the principle of mutual forgiveness. But then there is also the retention of sins -- a most important warrant. We could not preserve what is of God without it. Divine representation involves that you must put limitations on sin. In Matthew it was, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven". Matthew 18:18 That refers to the beginning of the dispensation. The Jews were bound by the apostles, and so in that measure the saints were released -- a very happy release from the influence of Judaism, but now at the end of the dispensation,

representation of God involves that we should begin with remission. Our attitude as knowing God is remission; the way is open for it; we have a warrant to remit. I cannot understand how we can be gathered together unless that is true; the principle of remission is a divine principle. But then there is the principle of retention. A solemn fact, but we could not be together in the light of the house of God without it. There must be the principle of retaining sin. If men will be sinners, if men harden their hearts and refuse the light of God -- the great principles that have been recovered for us -- then the sins are not remitted. There is the judicial principle going on. If Samuel judges in Bethel, he insists upon the principles of the house of God, and we must refuse people -- those with whom we cannot walk. "Holiness becometh thy house, O Jehovah, for ever". Psalm 93:5 But the love of our hearts, as having the Spirit of God, leads us to forgive. The way is opened for every one, every lover of Christ, to this position, but the principle of it is forgiveness; if the heart be hardened and there is refusal of light, then the sins must be retained, for the Lord is amongst His people, and He judges; it says of Samuel that he "judged Israel all the days of his life" 1 Samuel 7:15 -- what is due to the holiness of God's house goes on to the end. May the Lord bless the word.

SPIRITUAL DIGNITY

Matthew 26:6 - 13 Mark 14:3 - 9; Luke 7:36 - 38 John 12:3; 1 Corinthians 12:12, 13

I have it before me on this occasion to speak about spiritual dignity, the dignity which God intends to mark His people, both severally and collectively. With this in view, I hope to call attention to the anointing, particularly of that vessel spoken of in the passage in 1 Corinthians as "the Christ". "So also", it says, "is the Christ" -- referring to the saints as baptised in the power of one Spirit into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, and as having all been given to drink of one Spirit. That is what I have in view. The idea of this dignity is not what you might call new. It is not one of the things that a scribe discipled in the kingdom of the heavens would bring forth as new; but it is one of the things that, although old, retains its freshness, and is applicable now as when it was first mentioned.

You will all remember how Jacob had the idea as God appeared to him in that remarkable dream of his, in which he saw a ladder reaching up into heaven, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon it; when he awoke he said, "Surely God is in this place, and I knew it not". Genesis 28:16. He got a conception of the character that belonged to that place where God was; and so he takes the stone and sets it up for a pillar, and pours oil upon it, as if to express the initial conception he had of the dignity of that place -- God's house. God did not forget that, nor would He have Jacob forget it. It was the beginning, as one might say, of his spiritual history in the house of God. A very small beginning indeed, and yet morally a very great beginning. How he got the idea of anointing I am not prepared to say, but he was the

offspring of an anointed family. We are told in the Psalms that God protected the patriarchs, saying, "Touch not mine anointed ones and do my prophets no harm". Psalm 105:15. The idea was evidently connected with his family education, and if it had application to the patriarchs it certainly had application to the house of the God of the patriarchs. And so Jacob anoints the pillar. It is well to make a beginning like that, dear brethren. God takes account of it, and He sees to it that Jacob remembers it, for twenty years later He says, "I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar". Genesis 31:13 God took account of Jacob's conception of the dignity, the honour that belonged to the house of God. And God had respect to that, and He was with Jacob until he returned to that spot, where he not only anoints the pillar, but pours a drink offering upon it. His regard for the house of God has grown, has developed into a state of soul that is now pleasing to God.

And so, beloved brethren, I wish to show from these four anointings in the gospels, that we have an expansion of Jacob's act. I desire to show that these women represent a fourfold conception of Christ as here in this world on behalf of God. He was the Anointed of God in a fourfold way; and the blending of these four conceptions, I hope to show, is that which, as in the assembly, qualifies it to be anointed; for God will not now anoint a vessel like Saul, where the moral conditions are not in agreement with the anointing. In his case, David respected the oil, but deplored and suffered from the sad disparity between the vessel and the oil upon it. God will never again anoint a vessel out of keeping with His holy oil. He needs not, beloved friends, for in His beloved Son undertaking to do His will, emptying Himself, as we are told, taking a servant's form, becoming flesh, He has got One wholly according to His own thought. "This is my beloved Son, in

whom I have found my delight". Matthew 3:17 He has found it. He is no longer obliged, as one may say, to take up man in the flesh, nor will He. He has got in Christ One wholly according to His own thoughts. In the long thirty years of His private life, there was constant delight for God in that Man. He is now, so to speak, wholly independent of man in the flesh. Even although one may be head and shoulders above one's brethren, or like Eliab, have the right of the firstborn, God is not obliged to commit Himself to you in any way, nor will He; He has got His Man. And so we have presented here in the four gospels that which, as received into the souls of God's people on the principle of appreciation and adoration, and blended, becomes a vessel which God can anoint.

In Matthew we have the divine thought in government presented in Christ; in Mark we have set forth in Him the divine thought in prophetic service; in Luke in Christ as anointed, it is the vessel for the presentation of grace to man; and in John the Son is presented -- One great enough in His own Person, being the Son, to reveal God, and to make the love of God known in this world. Now all these facts were known to God in anointing Christ at His baptism, but these women (as I may speak of them, although in three of the gospels it may be only one, but I speak of them as three, inasmuch as there are no names given except in John) these women came to conceive of these divine thoughts as presented in the ministry of Christ. What God knew divinely, they learnt to discover in their measure by experience, by coming into the benefit and under the influence of the ministry of Christ; so that the woman who anointed the Lord in Matthew virtually says, He is the One to govern.

No one can be in his place in the house of God, according to God, without a right conception of government, and that conception can only be seen

in Christ; we have to learn it in Him. And as we learn it in Matthew, all other claimants to the place of rule are dismissed from our minds; not that we do not observe the indirect government of God at the present time in this world, we are thankful for those in authority, and we pray for them as we are enjoined; but they do not correspond with our ideal. As having come under the influence of Christ, having become, as Paul says, "legitimately subject to Christ", 1 Corinthians 9:21 we say in effect, There is no other ruler; the government is on His shoulder, He alone is fit to exercise it, and we anoint Him. Our ideal is there; we are in agreement with God -- He has anointed the King, and we have come under His rule. He has taught us to judge ourselves, to rule our own spirits, and no one can rule in the house of God who cannot rule his own spirit. The one who rules his own spirit is greater than he, it says, who takes a city; and no one can do that who has not come under the rule of Christ, who has not taken His yoke upon him and learned from Him. As thus taught, we have our conception of rule, and we express it as this woman did; she anointed Him on the head. With divine intelligence she recognised His official glory -- God's King.

And so with Mark -- you will understand that I do not at all purpose to make comparisons of these records, interesting as that is -- Mark records what is almost identical with Matthew; he says of the woman, however, "she hath done what she could". What a suggestion there is in that! You may say, I am not called to serve; you may have in your mind that the service of God rests with a few who are specially gifted; but the statement that the Lord makes of this woman should come home to everyone, old and young. "She has done what she could". How about that, dear brethren? How many things there are that we can do, and we leave them undone!

It is a question of what you can do, for God is not an "austere man", Luke 19:21. He does not expect nor exact beyond our ability; as He says elsewhere, "What thy hand finds to do, do it with thy might". Ecclesiastes 9:10. And I need not remind you of how much there is to be done. But what this woman did had direct reference to Christ, and it expressed her appreciation of the divine Servant; it expressed her conception of the service of God rightly rendered; as recorded in the earlier part of Mark, "He hath done all things well". Mark 7:37 That was her conception.

Now in Luke, the woman that was a sinner of the city is a fit person, as forgiven by Christ, to anoint Him. She knew, we are told, that He was in Simon the Pharisee's house -- an uncongenial place, a house as cold and frigid spiritually as the polar regions; and yet she went in there, for she knew He was there. She had a conception in her soul of what He presented. Those beautiful feet had brought to her the grace of God. We cannot, beloved brethren, be in the house of God rightly, unless we have a sense of that grace in our souls -- the grace of God rightly presented to us. The Lord says, "Seest thou this woman?" He calls attention to her. He deigns to do so, even to the cold Pharisee. He says, You did not anoint my head, you gave me no water to wash my feet, but she has washed my feet with her tears, wiped them with her hair, and has anointed them with myrrh. She represents, as I said, that element in the house of God which indeed is to give character to the dispensation, and that is, the grace of God. It is a wonderful thing, dear brethren, to be imbued in our souls with the sense of the grace of God, as come to us in that precious Man whose feet had carried Him to her; whose feet had carried the grace to her and to us. Paul says, in writing to Titus, even in regard to slaves, to "adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour", for it says, "the grace of God,

which carries with it salvation for all men hath appeared". Titus 2:10,11 Even a slave, as I remarked, is regarded as in a position to adorn that by his behaviour. But how could he do it, save as having a conception of it in his soul as presented in Christ?

And so in John 12 we have again anointing on the feet. It is not now appreciation of Him in government, or in service, or even in grace, although one cannot eliminate these, but the point is that He loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. It is a question, dear brethren, of love. "Hereby we have known love". 1 John 3:16 Mary had come to know love. It is not said of her, as was said of the woman in Luke, that she loved much; it is rather that Christ loved her. Divine love had come to her in the Son of God. He was on the way to give a full expression of it to God, and to man, and indeed to the whole universe. He was on the way; there were six days yet ahead of Him. But she expressed her conception of what was there; a murderous condition existed outside, but she had the box. Through His frequent visits to Bethany, He had proved to her the depths of the love that was in His heart, for God Himself had come down. With John it is "God so loved"; it is the revelation of Himself, and that by One who as we are told is in the bosom of the Father. Think of being visited, dear brethren, and that frequently, and in the most intimate way, by One who is in the bosom of the Father. Think of the infinite springs of affection that were present on the occasions of these visits. We are not told, as I said, as to her love earlier, but we are told that Jesus loved her; He loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. He had been at the tomb, where Lazarus lay in death; He had groaned at that tomb; He had wept at that tomb; He had called Lazarus by name out of it, and now He is in that circle, what we may call a circle of glory, for it is the circle where the light of the glory of the

Son of God has shone -- the love of God come near. The power of God had come near in raising Lazarus, and now the One in whom all this is resident is in the house, and Mary is equal to the occasion; she knows love. It is a wonderful thing, beloved brethren, to know love. "Hereby", says John, "we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us, and we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives". 1 John 3:16 It is the crowning feature, as I may say, in the whole blend of the assembly.

Now when the apostle wrote to the Corinthians they were very undignified, for they were allowing man in the flesh. They were allowing their Sauls, whom God had rejected; men of parts, maybe men of means, men of local Corinthian importance were obtaining recognition amongst them on account of these things. They were correspondingly undignified; they were out of accord with this wonderful blend of which I have spoken. And so the apostle brings in, not what existed amongst them, but what existed elsewhere. He refers to the human body, and he says by way of comparison, even as it has many members, so also is the Christ. He does, I admit, say later on that "Ye are Christ's body", 1 Corinthians 12:27 but it was characteristic and not absolute. Here we have "the Christ" -- the most dignified body of persons ever known on the earth. The patriarchs had been anointed, as I said; Aaron had been anointed as priest, David as king, and Elisha as prophet; but there never had been a body of persons linked up, from all nations, Jews and Gentiles, as he says, into one body. For "in the power of one Spirit", he says, "we have all been baptised (not ye all, but we all) into one body". It is really an Ephesian company of brethren that he is referring to, not a Corinthian company. It is a company such as the epistle to the Ephesians contemplates -- Jews and Greeks, who had all been baptised in the power of one Spirit into one

body. I understand by that that there has been a merging; our wills being gone and replaced by the will of God by the Spirit, we are merged, as in the appreciation, as I said, of Christ presented in the gospels. Our several relative importances disappear.

In the power of one Spirit we are merged in the baptism into one body. A wonderful achievement of God; He has done it by the Spirit. He has reconciled both, we are told, in one body to God by the cross. The cross and the world are always contrary. The Corinthian company needed the ministry of the cross, hence he could not speak of them as "the Christ". Therefore it is, as I said, an Ephesian company that is in view. They had been reconciled to God by the cross in one body, and had access jointly by one Spirit to the Father; they had been baptised in the power of one Spirit; their nationality, their several national proclivities had disappeared. We are "fitted together", Ephesians 4:16 as we read in Ephesians, and through the ministry of the gifts, the edifying of the body of Christ goes on, "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ; in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of that teaching ... ..but holding the truth in love". Ephesians 4:13,14. The joints and bands working, the body edifies itself. Think of the wonderful achievement of God through the death of Christ, bringing in a company merged in this way, in the power of one Spirit!

And further the apostle says, "and have all been given to drink of one Spirit". 1 Corinthians 12:13 May I not suggest, dear brethren, that these women, of whom we have spoken, had drunk into one spirit, not indeed the Holy Spirit, but into the wonderful spirit of the gospels. Let us learn to drink into that too. I do not say that is what is referred to here; this is the Holy Spirit. And then we have an explanation of

"the Christ", how it is that there is a company here marked off by the qualities of Christ in this fourfold way, as indwelt by the Spirit, which is dignified by the anointing of God to be the vessel of testimony in this world.

Now all that I have said, dear brethren, is that we might come into this. It is not intended to pretend to any public evidence, but to come into the light of the mind of God, how that He requires spiritual dignity. The house of God is no place for our wits; there is no dignity in human wit. What we need in this respect is the anointing, not that which is put upon us, but that which dwells in us; 1 John 2. It makes up for all that which the world relies on, even the religious world. The religious world of the day relies upon human wit, human ability. We are independent of these in the anointing that dwells in us. "Ye have not need", it says, "that anyone should teach you", 1 John 2:27 meaning a cultured man. To the man who has got the Spirit, worldly culture is of no value; it is of no value in the house of God; it is, to say the least, undignified; it is out of keeping with the anointing. Think of the power of the Spirit of God in a man! What impetus it gives to his renewed mind, what impetus to his affections, to his feelings, to his sentiments, and to his ministry!

We are independent, dear brethren, of cultivated flesh; let us beware of it -- of relying partly on the Spirit and partly on the cultivation of flesh; the latter is a dangerous, insidious snare among the people of God. God would have us to recognise the anointing; it is a reality. He has not left us here without support. We have in the Spirit -- the anointing -- the means of knowing everything; it is a question of applying ourselves, in dependence on God, in the recognition of the Spirit, to get the mind of God. It is an immense thing to have the anointing. "Ye need not that any man should teach you". 1 John 2:27 If

we recognise man, we shall soon find the end of the Christ, "Christ shall profit you nothing". Galatians 2:2 "Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ". Galatians 2:4 Hence the importance, beloved, of recognising the anointing, that heavenly power that is come down, by which we know all things. Someone would say, Then we do not need gift? Gift is included in that -- the anointing includes the gifts. They are all come down from Christ in heaven -- from Him who has ascended up -- so as to render the assembly independent of man and of cultured flesh.

So dear brethren, what I had in mind in calling attention to all this is not to lead to any pretentious thing like a public anointed vessel now; but what I wish to have before us is the light as to the mind of God. You say, But things have changed; you cannot have the same dignity. God has not changed, He has not lowered His standard! When Elijah says to God at Horeb, I have come here to resign my commission, it is hopeless to continue service, "They have thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left". 1 Kings 19:14. God says, "I have reserved to myself seven thousand". 1 Kings 19:18. He says, Elijah, if you have given up, I have not; and moreover, I intend to carry on my service in the original dignity in which I began it; go and anoint Hazael king over Syria, and Jehu king over Israel, and anoint Elisha to be prophet in thy stead. Note the word 'anoint'. It is God asserting His right to dignity. No lowering of the standard; a day of small things does not change God, He remains what He ever was. "The word that I covenanted with you when ye came out of Egypt and my Spirit", He says, "remaineth among you", Haggai 2:5. God asserts His dignity and what is due to Him, and so if we cannot serve with dignity it is better not to serve. And so in regard to rule; better not attempt it unless you can rule in a dignified way. But we

learn by ruling ourselves, and then by ruling ourselves we are qualified to rule in the house of God. So with grace, and so with love, for it is not love in word, but in deed and in truth. As Paul says, "Yet show I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence". 1 Corinthians 12:31. That is within our reach; all these things, dear brethren, are within our reach, and God would have them in us, in the dignity, in measure, in which they shone in Christ.

GOD'S RIGHTS IN GOVERNMENT AND SERVICE

Matthew 28; Mark 16

J.T. It was on my mind, as the Lord might help us, to see how matters stood at the beginning, for the gospels were obviously written to confirm what the apostles had witnessed to, introduced and established. There are four features, among others of course, which characterise the revelation and intervention of God in Christ. They are: His rights in government, His rights in service, His rights in grace, and His rights in love. If these four features were understood, it would enable us to be here at the end according to the mind of God. Matthew, giving us the rights of God in government, ends his narrative with the Lord's commission to the eleven to make disciples of all nations, that is, the nations viewed as the political divisions of the earth. Mark records that they were commissioned to preach "to all the creation". Luke also mentions the nations, but obviously his gospel has in view the race of mankind, not so much the political divisions; he presents the "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". 1 Timothy 2:5 And then John has in view the testimony to the world.

R.B. In what way do the rights of God in government affect the present aspect of the testimony here?

J.T. Well, the recognition of these would enable us to see that the happenings among the nations are under divine control, and can but further the testimony. No one can serve in the gospel in the sense of security without a knowledge of God in government.

J.S. Is that why Matthew begins with the King, the son of David?

J.T. Yes.

J.S. And also why the administrative vessel comes in in Matthew?

J.T. Well, yes; the assembly.

A.M.H. Would you view all the political divisions on the earth as coming under the hand of Christ in the sense of all power given to Him?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth".

A.M.H. Would you connect Matthew in any way with the Ephesian thought of the assembly as the vessel of administration here, how she influences, and would you look to Ephesians for that to be developed?

J.T. I think what we need perhaps to cultivate is a little more elevation of thought. Ephesians furnishes us with that in a supreme degree. The Lord is said to have "ascended up above all the heavens", Ephesians 4:10 and thence He has given the gifts -- the evidence of His power. If we think of the temple porch, which was one hundred and twenty cubits high, we see that the elevation dominated the other dimensions. In order to understand the vessel in which the government is set here, we have to apprehend it as having come down. We have to take account of the elevated place it has been given, otherwise in our service we shall not rise above the level of ordinary Christendom around us, which is, alas, what often marks us -- we are on the level of men. It is right to be on the level of men if we seek them individually (1 Corinthians 9:19 - 22), but not in our ordinary walk and testimony.

P.L. Would that go with the thought, "Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, gone into heaven"? 1 Peter 3:22

J.T. That is it, "Gone into heaven". In Luke the Lord comes down (Luke 6:17); the principle is

you come down. He spent all night in prayer, appointed the twelve, and then descended with them and stood in the plain in grace.

Ques. Why do you go to the end of the gospels for the point of view?

J.T. Because we want to see how the truth works out, and that is what we get in the end of the gospels. Hence Matthew speaks of one angel whose countenance is as lightning, and he refers to the Lord in Galilee maintaining the dignity that belongs to royalty -- He maintains distance -- and there is no reference to Jerusalem; that was governmental. We have to see how God deals with men governmentally, and then how He deals with them in grace. Luke in chapter Luke 24:47, begins at Jerusalem, because he gives the side of grace, but Matthew ignores Jerusalem and shows us the Lord in Galilee commissioning His disciples there, saying that all power is given unto Him. Power is no longer vested in Jerusalem; it is vested in Him; and the apostles are to make disciples of all the nations from Galilee. Thus we see how God works governmentally among the nations today.

A.H. W. Does the repeated reference to the mountain in Matthew give the thought of elevation?

J.T. It does.

C.H.W. Is that what is in your mind, that movement begins from heaven in Matthew?

J.T. Yes; the gospel begins with what is seen in heaven. The wise men in the east saw His star; the movement was in heaven. If I am in the light of the government of God, then I see that He discriminates; some nations are much more favoured than others. That is what Matthew teaches.

A.M.H. Do you mean then by government that God follows certain lines suitable to His government, notwithstanding the introduction of the day of grace?

J.T. Quite. An Asiatic is a man as much as a European, but nevertheless in the light of the government

of God one sees that Europe has been much more favoured than Asia. On the other hand, if you are in the light of what Luke presents, one God and one Mediator, you are prepared to speak of Christ to every man and reckon on God to help you in it. Hence you pray for the governments of the world, because you see that God works through them for the furtherance of the testimony.

Ques. Then do you link the whole together in 1 Timothy? You pray for governments, and then, too, for all men.

J.T. Yes; he brings down the governors, those in authority, and merges them all in one class. God will have all men to be saved; so that you reckon on the angel relatively as you reckon on the Spirit of God. It were folly to ignore the angel, for angels are sent out to minister "on account of those who shall inherit salvation"; Hebrews 1:14 their service is on account of us. Whatever that service may be, it is on account of us.

P.L. But the angel descends out of heaven, does he not?

J.T. He does. I think it is very important to take note of that, that the angel is here. He has come down from heaven, and he is here on account of us. "Are they not all ministering spirits [every one of them] sent out for service?" Hebrews 1:14 Sent out -- they are all under commission.

A.H.W. Are you suggesting that they are here in support of the testimony?

J.T. They are here on account of us, and on account of the testimony, but they are "sent out".

Ques. Do you bring in the angel in connection with the government of God?

J.T. Yes, and all is in view of the saints.

Ques. Do the angels serve in a circumstantial way?

J.T. Well, they are providential, as we speak, but they are actually here in service, under commission.

They are here in their relative place as the Holy Spirit is here, hence you get this one angel sitting on the stone, his countenance as lightning.

W.C.G. Is your thought that the saints get the advantage of the providential happenings of God in that way?

J.T. Certainly. Angels are all under Christ, all subject to Christ (1 Peter 3:22), but sent out. So you get both the angel and the Spirit acting in connection with the Ethiopian eunuch. Angelic service had much to do with the subdivisions of the earth, but now the angel is interested in the eunuch, in this man going down from Jerusalem to Gaza.

H.F.N. What is the connection in the last chapter of Revelation, "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies"? Revelation 22:16 How would that link on with what you are saying?

J.T. The Revelation contemplates distance, which the failure of the assembly has occasioned, so that the Lord is dealing through a representative. It is, so to say, indirect. I think that there the angel is a representative of the Lord. The Roman seal had been put on the stone of the sepulchre, and it was as if God were to say, "One angel is enough to deal with that".

R.B. Then what do the myriads of angels refer to?

J.T. The universal gathering. It is a reference, I understand, to the states of Greece, as you might say, the Congress. The angels, I suppose, would have been widely dispersed in their service, but they are seen together-the universal gathering. We have come to that; we see the myriads of angels, occupied as they have been in the government of God, a united company, witnessing to the foundations of the earth being laid, and following sympathetically since that time all the movements of God. We may be assured they represent an enormous company.

They represent wonderful wisdom and above all they represent subjection to the will of God (Psalm 103:20); not like a modern parliament, where every man has his own opinion, but all in subjection to God. We have come to that. Manna was the food of the mighty, "angels' food". The universal gathering of angels is of wonderful interest to those who know God.

R.B. You mean the object lesson would be a great help in government?

J.T. Well, quite; and it would help us too in our comings together -- a company who know God and are in subjection to God seen together. We read in the book of Job, which affords considerable insight into angelic feelings, "The morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy". Job 38:7 There we get an insight into their affections and feelings, and their interest in what God is doing. Then there was a time, too, when the sons of God came up before God.

J.S. You mean we should learn from that?

J.T. Yes; we have come to that. It is a great thing to learn subjection.

Ques. What is the thought in Matthew 18, where it says, "See that ye do not despise one of these little ones; for I say unto you that their angels in the heavens continually behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens"? Matthew 18:10

J.T. It is representation.

Ques. You have spoken of the rights of God in love coming out in John. You get the angels there too. Why are they there?

J.T. Their presence there is to indicate the dignity of the Person. They are not there to announce the power of God against all opposition, but to denote the dignity of the Person who lay there.

E.R. Is not one important point there that they are sitting, they were not standing; they are seen.

so to speak, in divine repose? I thought that was the greatest of all in John.

J.T. "Sitting ... one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain". John 20:12

E.R. I think sometimes we have passed that by.

J.T. The angels are available to God for His will. It is a great thing to have the sense that the government of God is running collaterally with the work of the Spirit; they go together.

P.L. Would you say that government in that way relieves of burdens externally and makes way for the assembly, while the Spirit of God would work in priestly hearts to place there the burden of the testimony? If in providence burdens are lifted, it is that we may carry burdens in a priestly way.

J.T. "Who art thou, O great mountain 1 before Zerubbabel thou dost become a plain". Zechariah 4:7. That makes room for him to "bring forth the headstone with shoutings: Grace, grace unto it". Zechariah 4:7. No one can serve with the sense of security who does not understand the government of God. Hence Matthew is so important.

H.F.N. Is that why in the heavenly city the twelve gates have twelve angels?

J.T. I think so; they are the agencies God has employed. We have the angels and the names of the twelve tribes all gathered up in the assembly.

J.J. Would you say that Romans is the epistle that goes with Matthew? Do you think the government of God is developed in that way? I mean, the son of Abraham and the son of David; they are both brought in?

J.T. Yes, exactly. The gospel is concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. He is come of David's seed according to flesh.

H.F.N. How does what you are speaking of bear on Matthew's peculiar presentation of the assembly?

Has Matthew in view the forming of the heavenly city?

J.T. I think you would be entitled to connect it with the heavenly city, but Matthew has more in view the government of God in this provisional period.

A.M.H. Is that in view of holding the ground that God had secured in Israel first, and afterwards when Israel and Jerusalem are set aside, in the assembly provisionally?

J.T. That is what I thought. It is a great subject, because the assembly must be very great to sustain such a government as this. Angels had it, Israel had it, and now the assembly has it. It is in the assembly as unfolded and spoken of by the Lord when He was on earth.

Ques. In that way does Acts follow Matthew administratively? The angel in Acts is very largely connected with Peter's ministry, but the Spirit more connected with Paul's.

J.T. I think that is right.

Rem. Speaking of subjection, it is wonderful to see that the Son Himself will be subject, and God will be all in all.

J.T. Perhaps our greatest need is to learn to be subject, for no one can rule unless he learns to be subject.

P.L. Does the sovereignty of God as seen in Matthew particularly, test us as to our subjection to Him?

J.T. Yes; God asserts His rights in government. In Matthew the Lord says, "I say unto you". You have to submit to that.

Ques. Why is it that the Spirit of Jesus did not suffer Paul to go into Bithynia? Was that in line with Matthew?

J.T. I think that has more the antichrist in view; I think the antichrist was to arise in Europe,

and the Spirit of Jesus would have the full testimony of Jesus presented there. "The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus". Revelation 19:10 That spirit has been tested in Europe prominently because Paul's ministry was largely developed there. The Spirit of Jesus would have him go there; and the antichrist appears in opposition to that. We see the development now.

Ques. It is recorded of Stephen that his face shone as the face of an angel. What is the idea in that?

J.T. The heavenly thought is reflected in him.

J.J. You were saying that the assembly has this government now, and yet the assembly does not govern. What would you say about that?

J.T. The assembly has it in the way of testimony -- the direct government of God. There is also the indirect government of God which is providential, through angelic ministry. We have nothing to do with the governments of this world save praying for them, but the direct government of God is in the assembly.

J.J. That is for testimony.

J.T. It is for testimony. The only part we have in the indirect government of God is we see God is in it through angelic ministry and we pray for kings in that light, but we do not deal with it directly at all. We should seek, however, to maintain the government of God within the circle of the saints; that is, where God governs directly; He is greatly to be feared in the assembly of His saints. There is a court of appeal which the saints can take up.

F.W.J. There is no delegated government in the assembly.

J.T. I think it is direct.

F.W.J. Would it be by the Spirit?

J.T. Quite. The Holy Spirit maintains the rights of God in the assembly; the conditions at Antioch would develop this. In Acts 11 we are told that Barnabas and Saul had ministered for a whole year

in the assembly at Antioch, and the disciples were first called Christians there; there was complete identification with Christ. And then it says, "Now in these days prophets went down from Jerusalem to Antioch; and one from among them, by name Agabus, rose up and signified by the Spirit that there was going to be a great famine over all the inhabited earth, which also came to pass under Claudius". Acts 11:27,28. Now that is governmental action. The dearth is not an action of the Spirit; it is a governmental action and it was intended to promote assembly or house conditions, which it did, so that those that were "well off" at Antioch determined they would send to the saints at Jerusalem, and they did so by the hand of Barnabas and Saul. So we see that the governmental action of God served to promote the direct action of the Spirit amongst the saints, that is, it drew out the sympathies of the saints at Antioch for those in Judaea. In result it bound up the Jew and Gentile together in a practical way, and therefore in chapter 13 the Holy Spirit is free to speak to the assembly. He says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". Acts 13:2 He is here personally to maintain the government and the service of God in this world, so that He asserts His rights. Levitical service is not carried on by angels but by the Spirit. It is a wonderful thing to see the direct government of God in the presence of the Spirit here in the Christian company.

Ques. That is bound up with the development of affection, is it not?

J.T. My thought was that we should not be on the level of ordinary Christendom, of the current accredited religions in the world. The temple was twenty cubits wide, sixty cubits long, but the porch was one hundred and twenty cubits high, and that maintains the elevated thought that was to give character to all. Looking at that structure one

would be impressed with its wonderful elevation. As to its position, it was "beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth", Psalm 48:2 but think of the elevation of it as crowning mount Moriah!

R.B. Will not the sense of elevation give the saints the qualification to judge angels?

J.T. I think so. We have to see that Christ has gone above all the heavens, and that we are linked up with Him.

Ques. Is that elevation suggested in Saul's conversion?

J.T. Well, there was a light from heaven and a voice from heaven, and these had their effect upon Saul; he was to be the vessel for the forming of the assembly in its heavenly character; so that the calling of the vessel would give fitness for the service; he was to serve in that exalted way. He speaks of Jerusalem above.

A.M.H. So your thought is that all this would preserve us from diplomacy -- the human way of handling things. You have been speaking of administration on the line of carrying out divine principles amongst ourselves, but is there not something further suggested in Ephesians, where the influence of what is heavenly is felt in regard of movement here?

J.T. I am sure that is so. I have been interested in the way in which Luke would bring in the heavenly -- that which is elevated. The angel says to Mary, "The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee"; Luke 1:35 not the power of God, but the power of the Highest; and then in chapter 2 it says, "Glory to God in the highest". Luke 2:14. And again in chapter 10, "Rejoice, because your names are written in heaven" Luke 10:20 and in chapter 19, "I Glory in the highest". Luke 19:38 Then in Acts, which is the counterpart of Luke, it is what is coming out of heaven that is in view, hence, "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into

heaven". Acts 1:11 Then we have a light from heaven, and a voice from heaven in chapter 9, and a sheet let down from heaven in chapter 10. It is what comes out from heaven, and all that enters into the truth of the house, the vessel of testimony here, and must necessarily lend a wonderful dignity to it.

P.L. Then there is power from on high in the end of Luke.

J.J. The Lord is definitely seen on an elevated position in Matthew, Matthew 5:1; Matthew 28:16.

J.T. Quite.

F.W.J. What are the extraordinary occurrences you were speaking of?

J.T. Well, what has happened in our own times; the war, for example, which has become a means of drawing together the people of God. It has become a means of lifting saints who were sunk in national feelings out of such things, and leading them to discern that their brethren in other nations love them. This shows the importance of understanding the government of God; we see how it helps in our service.

F.W.J. Would the government of God in the assembly be purely moral government, and the government of God outside more what is external?

J.T. I think, as I said, what goes on outside is indirect. If it were direct, God would have to deal with things and set them aside, but He is dealing with them indirectly without committing Himself. He does commit Himself, however, to what is in the assembly, because the Holy Spirit is here; hence in the Acts when a man and woman come and lie to the Spirit they are impugning God. They might have gone to the Sanhedrim or to the emperor and done so and nothing might have happened, but they lie to the Spirit; that is, Satan is endeavouring to set aside the direct government of God in the assembly,

and God would not have it. So Ananias and Sapphira were smitten.

J.J. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego would not bow to the external authority and they get deliverance.

J.T. The Son of God joins them and that changes the whole position.

Ques. Do you attach importance to the way the Lord meets the disciples in Matthew and changes the message of the angel, saying, "my brethren", instead of "his disciples", in view of the direct government of God in the assembly?

J.T. Well, quite. He meets them not in the same intimate way that you get in John, but more as a king would meet his parliament. Word is sent to them to go to Galilee and meet Him there. They go and they worship Him, and He says, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations".

P.L. Do you see the principle in the scattering of the Jews from Rome under the emperor's decree? Aquila and Priscilla are brought down to Corinth in result.

J.T. And you get it in Jerusalem at the persecution after Stephen's death, when all were scattered; the gospel was announced by those who were scattered.

P.L. We get it also with the Lord Himself in connection with the Roman census when Joseph and Mary went up to Bethlehem.

J.J. In Matthew the nations maintain their distinctive character, do they not?

J.T. I think you have there the political divisions of the world, and God takes account of them. "Baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". They were to be baptised into the full light of God revealed in the three Persons.

Ques. How would you view the Spirit of God in relation to the rights of God in service?

J.T. God has a right in service, and surely nothing could be more touching than that He should take up that attitude. Mark begins with the "gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God"; Mark 1:1 the Son has come in in service, and what comes out in the last chapter is, instead of an angel with a countenance like lightning we see a young man clothed in a white robe, and the gospel is to be announced to all the creation.

F.W.P. How do you distinguish between the nations and the whole creation?

J.T. The more we know God the more we see that He could omit nothing. If He has come in in service to bring the knowledge of Himself to men, He omits nothing. Even a sparrow does not fall without Him. So that the gospel was to be announced to all the creation, and Paul says, speaking of the glad tidings, "which have been proclaimed in the whole creation", Colossians 1:23.

F.W.P. That would go beyond the intelligent creation?

J.T. I think so. Your very beast is affected if you become a Christian; you know how to use the creatures of God. "The whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now". Romans 8:22 "For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God". Romans 8:19 I suppose that the creation will come in in that way, as it does in principle mediately. The sons of God would not rest without everything being in accord with God. The more you understand sonship, the more you are sympathetic with God.

Rem. The wild beasts are in the wilderness in Mark.

J.T. The whole creation is in the mind of God. He has not created anything for nothing; He created things for a purpose and for His glory: "For thy

pleasure they are and were created". Revelation 4:11 I only refer to it because it enters so much into the purpose of God. Then Luke has men, the whole race in view, and the remarkable thing is that when you have the three branches of the race set together in order, the African is placed first, that is the eunuch, then the Asiatic in Saul, and the European, or Japhethite, in Cornelius. That is how God looks at things; He reverses the order of history. The black man comes first because God would show that it is men that He has in mind, and He does not take man's way of looking at them.

R.B. Then Luke would encourage you to evangelise the Africans?

J.T. Exactly. Having the knowledge of the government of God, you may discriminate. You know that the African has not been of special value in the house of God, but at the same time he is a man and so an object of the grace of God.

Rem. It shows how necessary it is to have the truth of Matthew before we are ready to consider the truth of Mark and Luke.

J.T. I think so. The young man in white is Mark's ideal of service. You have the energy of youth and the purity which should go with the service of God. The great thing in service is what one's motives are. How easily our motives may be mixed. We are to have no double or personal motives. As Paul says, "We preach ... Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake". 2 Corinthians 4:5 He had only one thing in view, that is, to serve the saints and to present Christ the Lord.

J.J. Is that why we know less of Matthew and Mark than we do of Luke and John?

J.T. I dare say it is. I think that perhaps we have not made sufficient allowance for the government of God and the advantage which accrues to us from it on the one hand, and then from the peculiar

kind of service which emanates from God Himself on the other. "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God". Mark 1:1 The Son has taken on the service and God comes in, in that way, in the Son to serve, so that everything is done perfectly. He serves in the same skill and wisdom as He made the world, and even in greater skill and wisdom than was seen in the making of the world.

T.R. In Luke and John we have all the sweet savour offerings, but no forsaking.

J.T. The man in the flesh is dealt with unsparingly in the forsaking of Christ in Matthew and Mark.

Ques. What about the transfiguration?

J.T. Purity is seen in the whiteness in Mark's account. I think the young man is the ideal. God takes up young men. They may have grown old in service, but God takes up men when they are young and the point is to be pure in your motives in taking up service. You do not wish to become anything in the eyes of men; you simply want to serve; as the Lord Himself said, "I am among you as he that serveth". Luke 22:27. So that God came in in service -- a wonderful fact for us -- He had a right to do that, and He shows the way; hence the young man at the tomb is clothed in the white robe. Earlier he had just a piece of linen cast about his naked body, which was snatched away from him and he was left exposed, but now he is clothed in a white robe.

Ques. Does the Lord take account of their under- standing in connection with service? "How is it that ye do not understand?" Mark 8:21.

J.T. You find in the end of Mark the Lord upbraids them with their unbelief; there is more emphasis there on the unbelief of the disciples than in the other gospels. We must believe if we are to be effective in service. The principle is, "I have believed, therefore have I spoken", Psalm 116:10.

You must believe things, otherwise you become a mere clergyman giving out things for a salary: "He that believeth and is baptised shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be condemned". So He joins the eleven disciples while they sat at meat, and He upbraids them with their unbelief and hardness of heart.

J.J. What is the difference between the Lord remaining in Matthew and going up in Mark? Does that illustrate the two points of government and service?

J.T. I think as remaining with us He supports us in the government. The government is said to be on His shoulder. It is not a simple thing to undertake government, so in Matthew 18 it says, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". Matthew 18:20 The maintaining of government is in view in that sense. He is with us always. So at the care meetings, where we come together to consider the interests of the Lord connected with the saints, I think the Lord is specially there to maintain government.

A.M.H. Will you say a little more as to the thought of the rights of God in service?

J.T. He came in in Himself to serve. The gospels show how the Lord came in. "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Son of God"; Mark 1:1 not son of David. He came in immediately from God as Son. The Son serves; so that He carries out divine service before God here on man's behalf. God had a right to do that. He had a right to come in in that way, and it is very touching that He did come in in that way. The subject is taken up in Isaiah 42; "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth". Isaiah 42:1 Then it is not only what you preach or teach, but how the thing is done, the purity, particularly the purity of motive, as in the white

robe; that one is characterised all around by purity, so that the servant is to keep himself pure. One has really more need to look after oneself than to look after others.

P.L. Is the evidence of purity seen in the expression, "profitable to me for the ministry"? 2 Timothy 4:11.

J.T. Quite; Mark now had the "white robe".

GOD'S RIGHTS IN GRACE AND LOVE

Matthew 16

J.T. I thought we might proceed with the chapter in Matthew and perhaps touch a little on Luke and John, linking it all up together. What we have had can easily be linked up with the teaching of this chapter, for all must converge on the assembly; the different features of the gospels must necessarily converge there. We might touch on Luke and John.

God coming in in His rights in grace in Luke has all men in view. The preaching was to begin at Jerusalem, but to extend to all. In His rights in government as set forth in Matthew's gospel, He did not begin at Jerusalem, He began in Galilee. What we may not do in government we may do in grace, so the Lord directed that the preaching should begin at Jerusalem, but that the apostles should wait the promise of the Spirit from the Father; then the Lord is parted from them as He is blessing them and is carried up into heaven, and they worship; Him and return to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. That is, they are there in the full sense of grace. It was God's right to take up that attitude towards the guilty city.

A.M.H. Would you say in that way that grace is operative now in Luke to deliver individuals from the governmental position? In Acts 2 we read, "The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved". Acts 2:47 I suppose, saved from that position?

J.T. Yes. God had a right to intervene in grace, so that as Jonathan sent the lad back into the city with his weapons, "David arose", it says, "from the side of the south" (1 Samuel 20:41); that is, that notwithstanding the actual wickedness in the city

and in the house of Saul, the attitude was favourable. It was not merited, far from it, but God had a right to resort to grace, which He did. "David arose from the side of the south" suggests that things were favourable. In Luke 24 the divine attitude is seen as favourable in the disciples going back into the city and being there in the temple, full of joy, praising and blessing God. There was thus a testimony present in the city, and any who came into the temple could profit by it. And so, later on, after the incident recorded, David said, "Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God to him?" 2 Samuel 9:3 That is the attitude of grace.

A.M.H. Is your thought that we should take account of governmental dealings?

J.T. That was my thought. It greatly helps in the service of God to take account of His governmental ways; they cannot be altered. It is beautiful to see how David refused to touch Saul when he hunted him like a partridge on the mountains. He knew that Saul would die somehow, that God's hand would reach him, but his hand would not be upon him. I believe the Lord would teach us in that way how to be gracious and take account of those who may be under the governmental dealings of God. We cannot alter them; God's rights in government cannot be altered, but at the same time they are compatible with His rights in grace and His rights in service, so that David refuses to touch Saul and is enabled to pay a wonderful tribute to him and to Jonathan after they fell on mount Gilboa. In like manner we are enabled to take account of those who may be under the government of God, and to maintain an attitude of grace towards them. We have a right to -- God has given us the right to act in grace.

Ques. Is that contemplated in the first seven chapters of Acts?

J.T. Yes, up till the rejection of Stephen the southern aspect is maintained. "David arose from the side of the south". 1 Samuel 20:41 God maintains it until Stephen is rejected, and it is maintained in principle throughout Paul's ministry.

Ques. Would the rejection of Stephen be the sin against the Holy Spirit?

J.T. It was, but the spirit of grace pursues the Jew in Paul's ministry right to the end, even at Rome. Then there are, too, the rights of God in love, which is the most wonderful thing of all. "God so loved the world". John 3:16 We have come to the Son revealing the Father, to the Father giving the Son, and the saints -- the disciples -- receiving from the Lord His breath, "He breathed into them". John 20:22. And it is no longer a question of government, or grace exactly, or service, but of Persons -- "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you" John 20:21 -- the Father sent the Son and there are those sent out as the Son was sent out, that is, sent out in love. That is the most wonderful position of all, to be in this world actuated by love.

T.R. Do you regard the world as the people in it?

J.T. It is the world as God made it, I think. He made it and ornamented it; it is wonderfully made. "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God", Hebrews 11:3 but then there is one world we have to do with in which man was set, and God thinks of that. It would be of little account without man in it. But it is wonderfully ornamented, made in divine wisdom, and God has that world before Him.

T.R. Will the result of it be seen in the future day when everything is brought under the influence of divine love?

J.T. Yes; there is not a mountain, or a hill, or a lake, or a river that God does not take account of. All is there in divine skill, and He set man up in that scene. He will have that; He will have the world.

A.M.H. You mean the world in the sense of an

ordered system of things; it is "all men" in Luke, but it is having men in relation to an ordered system of things, I suppose, in John.

J.T. That is it, an ordered system of things in which He has set man.

A.M.H. He has set His heart on that, and His affections are bound up with it.

J.T. Quite.

T.R. So it is the same world; it is not another world, but new conditions are brought in.

J.T. Quite, entirely new conditions. God never gives up a thought. If He has formed the world and set man up in it, He has not relinquished that thought; He is going to revert to it.

A.M.H. When He says, "Now is the judgment of this world", John 12:31 that is the ordered condition of things in the state to which it had fallen.

J.T. That is it. Sin had brought that about, but we cannot conceive for a moment that God will relinquish His thought as to the world. God unfolded the pattern of it to Moses on the mount, and He has never given that up. Compare Hebrews 9:1 - 5.

Ques. Is that the thought reached at the end of the Psalms, "everything that hath breath"? Psalm 150:6

J.T. Quite. It would be of little account without man, because it is all one piece, the ornamented and ordered scene and man set in it.

M.W.B. Is that why love is brought in in relation to the world and grace in relation to man?

J.T. I think so. "God so loved the world". John 3:16

Ques. Is His purpose in view then in "God so loved the world"?

J.T. I think so. He will bring about a world entirely suitable to Himself.

J.J. If you speak of the assembly in relation to this system, it cannot be from a natural standpoint.

J.T. You have to take account of the assembly on the principle of the house, as His dwelling-place.

Then it is a place of rule -- government. Matthew presents it in this connection. That is a great feature of the testimony of God, and all this that we have had before us necessarily converges on what we have in this chapter. We come here to the foundation. As we have in 2 Chronicles 3:3, in the best rendering- "This was Solomon's foundation"; that is to say, now we have arrived at the thought of the house and these things necessarily are in view, but we have got to begin with the foundation. "This was Solomon's foundation for the construction of the house of God". 2 Chronicles 3:3. You have to examine carefully the foundation because an these wonderful things are going to enter into this, and we must begin right.

R.B. Then with regard to what you were saying this afternoon as to the rights of God in love, are they preserved in the assembly by our being here with the same outlook on the world as God had?

J.T. That is it. John takes that up in his epistle. "He that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him". 1 John 4:16 "We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world". 1 John 4:14 That is love, the Father sending the Son. We have seen that and testify to it, so all these thoughts converge on the assembly because "Solomon's foundation for the construction of the house" 2 Chronicles 3:3 had in view all that preceded it, and included the light that came in in 1 Chronicles. David was shown the site of the house, and he had the pattern of it by the Spirit, and all is in view in this chapter.

M.W.B. The way you have been speaking of the world gives expansion to the thought in the way John uses the term.

J.T. John begins, "He was in the world, and the world was made by him". John 1:10 There it is the creation, but what it had become morally through sin is seen in the fact that it knew Him not.

M.W.B. So you used the expression, "as God made it".

J.T. It knew Him not, because of the conditions that had come in.

P.L. So that the Son making the world would give an indication as to the conception that God had; this came out fully in the presence of His Son here?

J.T. Yes; we read of "The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come". Revelation 11:15 The world of our Lord is yet to come.

Ques. Is the thought in John 1, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world", John 1:29 that God will have it according to His thought?

J.T. Yes, sin is to be removed from it.

T.R. The death of Christ is the foundation of it all.

J.T. If we apprehend the foundation, we are on our way to understand the structure, because it was Solomon's foundation. The pattern was shown to David, but Solomon is the builder.

J.J. You refer to Solomon as the son?

J.T. Yes; it is the son who builds the house.

A.H.W. Do you refer to the foundation as seen in Peter's vision in this chapter, and does Peter refuse the foundation in the death of Christ at the end of the chapter?

J.T. He did not see what was necessary to all this; he did not see that, as with David, things had to be bought. David paid a great price for the site of the house. We are told in Samuel that he bought it for fifty shekels of silver, but in Chronicles he gave the weight of six hundred shekels of gold. He gave it for the place. If one is going to build a house, plenty of room is wanted, he does not want to be limited for the want of space. David gave that amount in shekels of gold for the place. We have to

think of what the Lord Jesus paid from His own point of view. If He has got the treasure, He buys the whole field; He must secure right of way.

M.W.B. Is it on that line that the assembly is brought in in this chapter?

J.T. I think so. "The Son of man must suffer"; Mark 8:31 that is the cost. He is going to have a free hand in the building.

Ques. Do you think it is in resurrection He builds?

J.T. He builds in resurrection. He has bought the space; it is a wide area. Ornan the Jebusite did not fix that price. David was acting, I judge, from his own standpoint, so that he would have the right of way there. It was what he gave for it.

F.W.P. Are you distinguishing between the cost and the foundation?

J.T. Oh, yes. The site was evidently of wide area. God has secured a wide area for His house through the death of Christ.

P.L. Would you say the site was bought in the death of Christ, and He builds in resurrection?

J.T. Yes; it was Solomon's foundation.

J.J. So the wide area would embrace all the things in the end of the chapter?

J.T. There is plenty of room for building. The site of the foundation has to be distinguished from the foundation; there was no foundation there when David bought the place.

W.C.G. "He gave himself a ransom for all"; 1 Timothy 2:6 is that the thought?

J.T. Yes. He has a free hand, having the right of redemption over all.

J.J. Does it not make it all the more interesting that it was in the place where Abraham and Isaac were that Solomon began to build, "on mount Moriah". I refer to 2 Chronicles 3:1.

J.T. It was to "the land of Moriah" Genesis 22:2 that Abraham

was directed to go, referring to the mount being shown. "One of the mountains which I will tell thee of" (Genesis 22:2); and so David was shown the site (1 Chronicles 21).

T.R. As regards David, looking at him not now as a figure of Christ in buying the site, he moves on in great enlargement from that time forward.

J.T. He prepares a quantity of iron for nails among the other necessary things for the house. Things are to be held securely. That is in resurrection. The nails are in resurrection and are very important in the building.

M.W.B. How would you apply that?

J.T. Well, I think they refer to the security in which things are set up in resurrection; they are beyond the reach of the ravages of time and Satan's power. "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". Matthew 16:18.

Ques. Like the "nail in a sure place" Isaiah 22:23?

J.T. Just so.

F.W.P. Will you say a little more about the foundation? I think we can understand about the cost -- what it was to the Lord to make the purchase.

J.T. What comes out in the early part of the chapter is that the Lord would deliver us from worldly religiousness -- the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees -- the two forms that religion has taken; and then the bread -- the sense that the Lord is sufficient -- comes in. These things relieve the mind; we have learnt their character, so that when we come to the foundation, it does not refer to what is objective. The Lord had walked on the water, cast out demons, had raised the dead and declared Himself to be the Son of God. But that is not what is referred to here. The gospel is presented on that ground. It is the "gospel of God ... concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to

be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead". Romans 1:1 - 4. But that is not referred to here; it is a question of being shown; that is, we are on spiritual lines. It is not what is presented in the way of testimony, it is what is apprehended spiritually, it was a revelation.

T.R. David had received the pattern of things by the Spirit.

J.T. Exactly. It says, "And Solomon began to build the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem on mount Moriah, where he appeared to David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite", 2 Chronicles 3:1. That is the idea. The thing was shown, and so it is here. "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens".

T.R. Would you say that Matthew's view in regard of the kingdom of heaven would be in the main objective, but when you come to the assembly here it is more on the subjective line, what is built in?

J.T. It is that; hence we have to be prepared to be shown things -- not taught or preached to, but shown. It is a spiritual thing.

C.H.W. You mean the foundation was shown to Peter in regard to the Person of Christ, and so to every one -- the foundation is shown to all the saints.

J.T. We have to come in our spiritual apprehension into that which was revealed to Peter.

A.M.H. Would you think that coming into that apprehension indicates that the work of God is there and the kind of material comes to light?

J.T. "Thou art Peter", you mean? He does not open much up to Peter about it. To him the Lord says, "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens".

Ques. One would like to get the teaching a little more clearly; we have a good deal in Matthew about the kingdom of heaven and then in this chapter the

assembly is brought in, and further on the kingdom is returned to. Why?

J.T. In chapter 18 the kingdom is taken up in connection with the assembly. In speaking to Peter here, the Lord does not open up the truth of the assembly; He just suggests the foundation and the material, because really He is thinking of Paul; "He himself knew what he would do". John 6:6. He said to Peter in effect, Your function will be to open the kingdom to others; but in regard of what would result from that -- the wonderful development under Paul's ministry -- the Lord maintained a reserve.

Ques. Why is it brought in at all?

J.T. Because it fits in with the teaching in this gospel as it develops. The kingdom of the heavens was to work out through the assembly. In chapter 18 the assembly is to be appealed to here, it is simply brought in as corresponding with "Solomon's foundation", but we do not get the building. The Lord says, "I will build", and this involves Paul's ministry.

F.W.J. You get Peter here as a sample stone; he had no function in connection with the assembly.

J.T. No, not here. His commission here refers to the kingdom. In opening the door to the Gentiles he made room for Paul, who, "as a wise architect ... laid the foundation". 1 Corinthians 3:10.

F.W.J. There is no builder but Christ in connection with the structure?

J.T. Except that you or I build according to 1 Corinthians 3. We are responsible as to what we put into it.

F.W.J. That would be more doctrine, would it not?

J.T. There is what is in keeping with the foundation, which remains as part of the building; thus what we build in is included in God's building. Hence, "I will build" included Paul. It was in his ministry the truth of the assembly was opened up.

H.F.N. How do you distinguish between the foundation spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3 -- "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" 1 Corinthians 3:11 -- and the foundation spoken of in this chapter?

J.T. Well, I think this is Solomon's foundation; it is Christ's foundation in other words; that is, He is building on this. But this would include Paul's. Paul had the order of man in view -- Jesus Christ -- so as to shut out the man after the flesh.

H.F.N. Is there any link between the way David built and the reference in Corinthians? It is said of David that he built inwards. I wondered whether the reference in Corinthians was more to David's building and this more linked up with Solomon's building.

J.T. David did not build the house; building inwards had reference to the city. Paul said, "Other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ". 1 Corinthians 3:11 The Lord said to him at Corinth, "I have much people in this city". Acts 18:10. If we look at men and women as they are, we have to bring in Jesus Christ, because souls have to be led to the order of man that has been tested here, and who has answered in every way to God. That is what Paul had in mind. Hence He says, "Let each see how he builds upon it". 1 Corinthians 3:10. We may all have part in that building, that is to say, in helping souls and serving in various ways, but Solomon's foundation is what we have here. In the midst of all this service, the Lord is building continuously and He is building on the sure foundation of the revelation of Himself as the Son of the living God in our souls.

H.F.N. With regard to the first reference in Scripture to building -- the building of the woman -- might I ask how you view that in relation to the thought of building?

J.T. It is very remarkable that is the first mention of building. The word is not employed in regard to the framing of the world. But He builded the woman. There is, of course, a link between Genesis 2 and this chapter, only there it is a companion for Christ; here it is His assembly, having administration in view. "On this rock I will build my assembly". It is not human instrumentality here, but it all works together. The assembly here has the kingdom in view.

Ques. This is outside of flesh and blood conditions?

J.T. Yes, it is outside; but 1 Corinthians 3 contemplates the conditions in which we are, and hence we must bring in the order of man that was here. The responsibility of the builders is in view.

F.W.J. You do not look at this from an individual point of view, but as exclusively the work of God?

J.T. Exactly; Christ is the Builder.

Ques. Do you connect "Jesus Christ" with the moral side, and is the "Son of God" the spiritual side?

J.T. Of course the spiritual element enters into the moral side as well, but what the Lord builds is absolutely spiritual and we arrive at it by being shown. Compare 2 Chronicles 3:1 and notes in New Translation. We must arrive at "Solomon's foundation".

Rem. So the Lord refers to "My Father" in that connection.

J.T. Yes, it was revelation. Already in chapter 14 He is acknowledged to be the Son of God, but that is by the miracles. This is another matter. This is one of the most difficult points in the whole of the New Testament -- to arrive at Christ's foundation.

P.W. Would you say that the Lord builds on what the Father was revealing to Peter? Does the Lord build on what the Father was doing?

J.T. Well, what was in Peter's soul the Father had placed there and the Lord discerns it at once. There is the foundation.

J.S. Would you connect the foundation with John's gospel?

J.T. It necessarily enters into it, but here it is the Father revealing to Peter; "to thee", as it says. In John's gospel we have the revelation of God by the Son, but here it is the Son revealed by the Father to Peter. It is not based on what came out in the Lord's service; it is entirely on what the Father made known in Peter's soul.

Ques. Is it on that account that the gates of hades cannot prevail against it?

J.T. God has reached a position that cannot be overthrown. Government is now fixed.

J.J. In Matthew the kingdom is a necessity for the assembly; I mean the kingdom exists for the sake of the assembly.

J.T. And then the assembly is the capital whence all the light radiates. Whilst government in the assembly is not arbitrary, it is right.

H.H. What do you understand by the kingdom of the heavens?

J.T. It is the rule of the heavens, and means now that Christ is in heaven; and things are carried on here in the assembly on His account now.

H.H. Why is there nothing said at the end of the gospel about His going up? He says, "I am with you all the days". Matthew 28:20.

J.T. But the Father is ever referred to as there. We know Christ is with us, but the fact that it is not said He goes into heaven does not mean that He has not gone into heaven. The point is He is here to support us; it does not mean He is here personally. He is here in the way of support.

Ques. What do you mean by support?

J.T. At the care meetings is where you realise it.

I was at a meeting here once when I realised it in a very distinct way. That is the idea; He is with us for the maintenance of the government of God and the discipline of God here, and indeed for the maintenance of the testimony. But how essential if they are to go and make disciples of all the nations that He should be with them: "I am with you alway".

Ques. Are you thinking of "my assembly" in the light of the four anointings you mentioned?

J.T. The Lord has "my assembly" here, and all these features necessarily converge there.

C.H.W. What is the thought underlying that expression, "my assembly"?

J.T. That He would have it; He would not have Jerusalem.

C.H.W. In a personal way, like the pearl?

J.T. It is available to Him for the maintenance of the government of God here, pending the public display of things.

W.C.G. Where would Paul help us in regard of Solomon's foundation?

J.T. In Damascus he began to speak it. "And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God". Acts 9:20. God had revealed His Son in him. There was the basis for a new order of things.

M.W.B. You said the foundation was a subjective idea. Is it that which is laid in persons' souls? That work would not be going on today as the foundation, would it?

J.T. I think you come into it. The thing is already there since the revelation was made to Peter, but you come into it on the same line. The Holy Spirit is here and He works in your soul. You receive things objectively in relation to what you hear and see, but then the Holy Spirit works in you. There is such a thing as the "spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him". Ephesians 1:17.

M.W.B. You would not link the foundation exclusively with God's work in Peter's soul?

J.T. That was the principle of it. It is what is here in the souls of the saints; that is what it is -- the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

A.S.L. Is it right to think of Christ as the Son of the living God, still building the assembly?

J.T. Certainly; it is a question of what is known in our souls by revelation.

Ques. Is that a different thought from what we get in Timothy, "The firm foundation of God stands"? 2 Timothy 2:19.

J.T. Oh! well, it would be the same thing, but here it is something you have got on to, so to speak. You have got on to something that is fixed, that nothing can shake. You are on a spiritual rock; whatever happens here, there you are. That is a thing to lay hold of.

T.R. Does that give us the ability to take account of the assembly in its administrative capacity?

J.T. I think it does; you know the ground you are on now. Chapter 18 really hinges on this.

Ques. Does the Lord in John show how we come into the apprehension of it, speaking of the Spirit, "he shall receive of mine, and announce it to you"? John 16:14

J.T. Well, yes; there is the suggestion there. It is what the Holy Spirit does in us really.

Ques. Is not the discerning of the truth of the assembly a matter of divine revelation now as ever?

J.T. Of course, what we have here was very special; it was the beginning of a new order of things and the Father took the initiative. It is not the Son's work; it is the Father's work. The Lord proceeds on new lines from this point.

Ques. Did the Lord greatly appreciate that this point had arrived?

J.T. It was a wonderful moment. In chapter 11

He looked up and gave thanks to the Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that He had hid these things from the wise and prudent and had revealed them to babes. Now here He does not tell us what the things were, but you have a definite revelation by the Father in Peter's soul, and I am sure it was a wonderful moment for the Lord -- the beginning of the new Jerusalem.

Rem. The administration would not break down in the assembly as it did in Israel.

J.T. That is it.

A.S.L. The activity of living grace in heaven is connecting the living stones together now.

H.F.N. Would you contrast the Lord's word to Peter in John 1, "Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas: thou shalt be called Cephas", John 1:42 with what we have here? Would you say what the difference is between the two?

J.T. The Lord looked on him, it says, and said, "Thou shalt be called Peter". The Lord is giving names there; that is to say, the saints are distinguished by their movements of life in John, because there it is the Last Adam naming us, and Peter gets his name. But here it is, "Thou art Peter"; not, Thou shalt be called Peter, but "Thou art Peter", meaning that he is qualified as material for the building.

H.F.N. Are there in that way three phases in Peter's history -- his relation to the Lord Himself in John 1, then in relation to the Father in Matthew 16, and then the Spirit in Acts 2; is that the completion of his education?

J.T. Well, quite.

J.J. You feel in thinking of the Father the necessity for John's ministry; you feel it is left for John to bring out.

J.T. I have no doubt.

P.L. So there is what the Father does as revelation, and what Peter does in confession, and what Christ does in building.

J.T. That puts it very well together. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ... Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". This refers to the light that had come into his soul, and the Lord says, "Thou art Peter".

Ques. Now, will you distinguish between that and what we are in the presence of today -- the breakdown of the responsible vessel?

J.T. That is on the line of 1 Corinthians 3; it is because the truth of Jesus Christ has not been held to by the builders.

C.H.W. What attitude was the Lord taking when He said, "I also, I say unto thee"?

J.T. That of another divine Person -- the Father had revealed something to Peter and He recognised it. The moral side must always be kept in view because of what you have to contend with. The moral side began in figure in mount Lebanon. The timber was cut down and carried over the sea and delivered to Solomon. That all refers to the moral side.

W.C.G. Are we weak sometimes on the moral side?

J.T. I think so; that is where we are defective.

A.S.L. Would you expound a little the difference between moral and spiritual?

J.T. "Moral" involves I am dealing with mixed material and I have to refuse what is evil. One has to discriminate between good and evil; that is a great thing in dealing with souls. You are not admitting any evil; that has to go.

A.S.L. What is spiritual is beyond that?

J.T. Of course, you are working by the Spirit in all that, but there is a time when the thing is delivered over to Solomon, as it were, and he puts it into the building.

A.S.L. Then there are things wholly spiritual, which is a different thought from what is moral.

J.T. I think so. You do not get the moral thought here, "On this rock I will build my assembly", but there is a great deal preceding the actual putting in of the material.

Ques. Would the blind man in John 9 help us in that regard?

J.T. There is a process of disentanglement till the man is outside. What is noticeable in this chapter is the Lord left the Pharisees and Sadducees; He has done with them.

R.B. Then "being shown", as you speak of it, is more a process on the line of the work wrought in the man in John 9.

J.T. I think you come into it; it is a spiritual apprehension.

Rem. The Lord says, "A sign shall not be given to it, save the sign of Jonas". He left them with that sign; that is the moral side.

J.T. "He left them, and went away". And then the disciples were warned to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. That is where the moral side comes in.

M.W.B. What is the connection between this and 1 Peter 2, "To whom coming ... yourselves also as living stones"? 1 Peter 2:4,5.

J.T. In the whole realm of nature there is no such idea as living stones. It shows how unique it is, and what the nature of the building is.

THE LIGHT OF SONSHIP

Matthew 18

J.T. This question on the part of the disciples would rather indicate that they were not in the enjoyment of the light of the previous chapter. It says, "in that hour". In the preceding incident the Lord had brought out the great thought of sonship, associating Peter with Himself in the most intimate way; He says, "Take that and give it to them for me and thee". Matthew 17:27. The truth of sonship and our association with the Lord in that relation had been introduced, and yet it says, "In that hour the disciples came to Jesus saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?"

H.H. How does the truth of sonship affect us?

J.T. Well, no position in the kingdom of the heavens is equal to sonship, but any position given in the kingdom of the heavens would be occupied in the light, and grace, and dignity of sonship. True greatness lies in the relationship indicated -- that of sons. The Lord says, "For me and thee". Matthew 17:27 It is the apprehension of the relation into which we are brought as sons that will enable us to occupy our positions in the kingdom according to God, for we are personally greater than any office we may hold. That the disciples should have asked "in that hour" showed it had not been taken in at all.

A.J.H.B. Would the apprehension of sonship lead one to take the place of a little child?

J.T. It is only in the light of sonship you can do it. Their question had in view the place they would occupy before men, but the knowledge of our relation to God as sons enables us to take any relation to the will of God here. It is a matter of little consequence

whether we are in the place of prominence or otherwise; hence the Lord calls a little child in order to convey His mind as to what is becoming to us in our public capacity. But a little child does not indicate our place as sons.

P.L. Do you see this in Solomon taking the place of a little child in his prayer to God?

J.T. He said, "I am but a little child; I know not how to go out or come in", 1 Kings 3:7. He shines in the kingdom, but he was a son before that. It was undoubtedly in the knowledge he had of his personal dignity that he could take the place he did in the kingdom. He says, "I was my father's son". No one perhaps in the Old Testament illustrates the truth of sonship as to how it works out in the kingdom more fully than he. He had a tender place in the affections of his father and mother (Proverbs 4:3), and God had named him because He loved him; indeed God had taken him to be His son. It is the light of this great relationship that enables us to fulfil any function in what may come out in the public position of the kingdom where God's will is carried out.

T.R. The question of trespass can only be taken up in the sense of sonship.

J.T. Well, I thought that.

T.R. It is a serious question, and it seems to be put here in this chapter on the side of recovery -- our responsibility to recover -- whereas chapter 5 puts the responsibility on the person who trespasses.

J.T. Hence it is a question here of what we are with God to have power with men. Sonship indicates what we are with God. I think the little child in the public position corresponds with the son as before God. One comes in to fulfil any function here in assurance as being in the dignity and liberty of a son. The chapters from 14 onwards have a bearing on this chapter, but particularly chapters 16 and 17; they bring out the light of Christ's dignity as the

Son and then the wonderful fact that "then are the sons free". Matthew 17:26. It is a precious thought.

E.J.McB. The sense of dignity with God would enable us to take the most menial place here in a creditable manner.

J.T. And in taking the lowly place, the place of a little child, we come under the protection of heaven -- wonderful protection! The son does not need that; it is the little one that calls forth all the interest of heaven. The chapter sets out the ground on which things are as we approach administration -- as we take up administration here.

E.J.McB. Do you think the hour of privilege leads to the disclosure of the moral state of the soul? "In that hour"; the disclosure comes out at that time.

J.T. We rightly speak a great deal of privilege, but the question is what effect has it on us? What effect had the hour in which these wonderful things were disclosed on the disciples? One feels for oneself how little one is affected by the magnitude of the things presented to us -- God's thoughts for us. It was in the presence of all these wonderful things which divine love had brought to light -- sonship and our companionship with Christ -- and in that hour, too, that this question of who should be greatest in the kingdom comes out.

W.C.G. You said they had not entered into their privilege. How would people enter into the reality of it?

J.T. The occurrence at the end of chapter 17 took place in the house. It was one of a series of occurrences in the house, the import of which would enable us, as we follow them and enter into them, to take up administration in the house, for that is where administration is -- the dispensation of God which is in faith -- it is house-wise. The incident is, one might

say, the climax of occurrences that this gospel presents in the house -- instances in which the Lord served in the house. This may be taken as perhaps the last and the greatest. It was when Peter came into the house that the Lord anticipated him and raised the question as to the position of sons. Thus we see that the way we come into this is house-wise; it is not a public thing, it is in the house, like one who had the desire to dwell in the house to behold the beauty of the Lord. We come to see what a great thing sonship is, "Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever; the son abides for ever" John 8:35; we have the liberty of the house -- liberty with God. He has no less a thought for us, and in the liberty of that position we are supported by divine resources-the sons are free. "Go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up" Matthew 17:27 and you will find a piece of money there. So the resources of God sustain us there, and it is in the light of that that we take up our service here. Hence we come into it in dignity and there is no need to be added to by it. Our place in the kingdom will disappear, but sonship will remain.

J.J. In Luke 22, when the hour was come, and the Lord sat at table with the disciples, a strife arose amongst them as to who should be the greatest. Is that the hour of privilege?

J.T. Yes; it was so.

Ques. Do we not see perfectly expressed in the Lord Himself that in the consciousness of His place with the Father, He could surrender everything here and go down to the lowest place?

J.T. I think so. John sees Him at the outset as with the Father, an only One with the Father. That is the beginning of the thing. Then those who begin to follow are invited to come and see where He abides. I think John's writings fit in now, and thus we learn

to take things up in the knowledge of our place with God.

W.C.G. On the mount of Transfiguration they had already heard Him saluted as the Son.

J.T. How wonderful that He should have said, "the sons", and then "me and thee"! Matthew 17:27

Rem. And to be associated with the One in whom it was so perfectly expressed.

J.T. Quite; and the occurrences in the house rightly understood, ending with this occurrence, qualify us to enter on chapter 18, because administration is in the house -- the dispensation of God according to the house -- and we are to have part in the administration and it is to be in the dignity in which the Lord acted in the house.

T.R. So you would be enabled to answer to the supreme test, seventy times seven.

J.T. Well, I think that is the way; you have to go after the brother. It is the test of your power whether you can gain your brother.

Ques. "Unless ye are converted and become as little children"; why should that come in?

J.T. Well, it is quite evident they needed conversion; they could not see sonship "in that hour". You could not see the great thought of God -- this wonderful place that was being unfolded, and begin to ask about being great outwardly.

Rem. In that way our reading may be helpful to that end, that some of us may be converted.

J.T. Yes; converted to see the great thing there is for us before God. It is greater than anything we can have here before men.

Rem. For conversion would give one to look at God's thoughts according to their divine presentation.

J.T. I think that is what conversion would imply. To turn round, to come to see what there is. The point is what place we take outwardly. The Lord calls to Him a little child -- the one available.

P.L. Would you get the thought of conversion in Mary Magdalene, in her turning round?

J.T. That is very good. She turned round to this same thing; the Lord pointed out to her this very thing.

J.J. You mean, "My Father and your Father ... my God and your God"? John 20:17.

J.T. Quite.

D.L.H. But do we not get a little touch of the public line that we ought to pursue, even in the Lord's word about the dignity and giving for Me and thee, "lest we should offend them"? Matthew 17:27. That seems to indicate the line we are to take publicly before men. We do not parade anything of our sonship, but we take the lowly place and seek to avoid all offences. Is that not so?

J.T. I think the reference to the fish is that the resources of God which we have save us from coming under outward influences, and save us from compromising our position; we know our dignity.

D.L.H. But you do not tell the outside people anything about your dignity.

J.T. But you show it.

D.L.H. But you show it in littleness, and in taking your place of nothingness here.

J.T. You can relinquish things here in the light of your dignity.

D.L.H. Yes.

Ques. Is it in the spirit of sonship that this can be carried out?

J.T. I think it is; the resources of God are indicated in the fish.

R.B. Why is it in the singular?

J.T. It is one hook, one fish, one piece of money. He did not need to cast a net out. It seems to indicate how divine resources are available at once; they are there. I think that the knowledge of sonship enables you to ask for just what you need.

Ques. So would you say it leads up to agreement on the earth?

J.T. Oh! I only meant asking as indicating we have access to divine resources. I think the sea indicates the sphere of divine resources, and these are available as we need them.

Ques. And the hand and foot and eye cast from thee, would that fit in with Colossians? "Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth". Colossians 3:5.

J.T. Yes, I think it would.

Ques. Paul had his name changed, "Saul who also is Paul". Acts 13:9. Is that suggestive? He came to it.

J.T. I think he did.

J.J. I suppose Timothy would set forth the spirit of a little child in serving in the house.

J.T. Yes; he was Paul's child.

J.J. What is the meaning of bringing in offences and offending these little ones?

J.T. Anything by which they might be misled, by way of example.

H.F.N. Will you say a word in regard to what you referred to in connection with the Lord's movements in the house, in the previous part of Matthew? I think you said it led up to this. Would you indicate what you had in mind?

J.T. Well, Matthew presents the official side of the Lord's service here, as Mark also does; hence He was anointed by the woman in the house of Simon the leper, meaning that she virtually said in her anointing, This is the nature, the kind of administration in divine hands -- this is the Vessel, the Administrator. She would upset by her act, if accepted by the people of God, the whole hierarchical fabric of Christendom; she anointed His head, signifying that she recognised the suitability in the Vessel that had come in, and that God had already anointed an Administrator for that which He was administering.

The wise men had begun the thing by coming to the house and falling down and worshipping Him, and in bringing out of their treasures gold, frankincense, and myrrh, and presenting them. They did not do that from experience; they did it instinctively as having light. The King was before them. The King had not entered on His administration, but He was to them the King; but at the end of the gospel the woman recognised it by anointing His head, and the Lord says, "Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her". Matthew 26:13. It was to come down with the gospel, reminding us of what that woman did. She had a true estimate of the kind of vessel that was suitable for this great administration.

Now the wise men had set out the idea in recognising the King, but this woman had come to it by observation, by experience. I think that the consideration of the occurrences throughout the gospel would enable us to see the rightness of her act, which was also in the house -- in the house of Simon the leper. The Lord, for instance, begins in the house of Peter, and Peter's wife's mother is sick of a fever. He touches her, and the fever left her and she arose and served Him; Matthew 8:14, 15. Then He is in the house of Matthew the publican and sits down with publicans and sinners; that is, the company there would bring Him into reproach; Matthew 9:10. One must accept that -- that those whom God brings in are of God's selection, and may bring us under reproach. And so on right through; you get Jairus's daughter in the house. The Lord comes into the house and there are flute players there and people making a noise. That is not suitable to the house; administration in the house cannot be carried on under such conditions -- things that appeal to men's senses. So He puts them all out and He takes certain

ones in -- those who are spiritual; then He took the maid by the hand and she arose; there is power there. Later in chapter 9 two men come to Him who are blind. They come into the house and they get their eyes opened and see things as they should be seen. So also in chapter 13, He comes again into the house, we read, and the disciples come to Him and say, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares",: Matthew 13:36 and He expounds it to them in the house.

But He goes further and brings out the truth of the assembly as the treasure, and teaches that we are to understand it as hidden. He also speaks of the preciousness of the pearl; there are things hidden and things which are seen. Then He opens up the parable of the net cast into the sea so that we may understand that the good are to be gathered into vessels, but the bad cast away; souls are to be received with deliberation; the fishermen are to sit down and select. Then He graciously said to them, "Have ye understood all these things?" They say unto Him, "Yea, Lord". Then He adds, "every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old"; Matthew 13:52 that is to say, we learn to be householders by observing these things. Then we have this further instance, which I think is the crowning one in the house, where we are brought into the knowledge of our relation with the Lord as sons. That is what I had in mind, and if we approach this chapter in the light of these things, we shall know how to do things. The brother who has offended is treated accordingly.

A.M.H. I should like to know a little more as to administration -- the adjustment of things in the house. Is there not the administration in the house of the goodness of God and what flows out manward?

J.T. Quite. It is an immense thing to lay hold of what we are in the house and to see how the Lord

moved in that sphere, because it is in the house that we get our training, our family feelings and affections.

A.M.H. So the first serving in the incident you referred to in Peter's house would be liberation to serve Him?

J.T. Quite; we have to be relieved of feverish conditions.

A.M.H. A question has been raised as to the relation between the kingdom of the heavens and the assembly. I suppose they are not the same. Would the kingdom of the heavens be rather wider?

J.T. I think it is wider; I suppose it is the rule of the heavens here, and would extend to the whole profession. Then the great fact is God has something here that can be appealed to, that is formed of those in the light of these things, and that is outside the world and greater than the world. We are consciously greater and superior to the world in the light of what has preceded this chapter. So we deal with things administratively from that consciousness, knowing our place with God.

P.L. Do you find the truth of sonship in Isaac when he retires before the Philistines in a lowly spirit such as a little child, finally retiring into the position where the world cannot pursue him?

J.T. Quite.

A.J.H.B. Does the expression here, "enter", give the thought of being in the kingdom as having become as a little child?

J.T. I think entering here is as you might say subjective. You enter; you see now how things are and you see you have part in this wonderful thing -- the kingdom. You have to become as a little child, and you are consciously under the care of heaven. Woe be to anyone who interferes with you. So personally you are great in the knowledge of your place with God, but you are under the care and protection of heaven as having become as a little

child, and woe be to any person or system that interferes.

W.C.G. Do you think that verses 12 - 14 would be suitable for administration in the assembly?

J.T. I think so. It is a question whether we approach divine things from the standpoint of current religions around us, that is, working ourselves up to it, preparing ourselves for it, or whether we approach them from the standpoint of Matthew's gospel, coming into them in dignity; that is what we have to get hold of. If we do there is no danger, we are just content. Our personal dignity is taken care of. The first great test is how I can save my brother if he has offended me; what I can do to help him.

T.R. To seek the one that has gone astray.

J.T. Quite.

T.R. In connection with the trespass offering Leviticus 6:16 it is interesting to notice that it is the only occasion in which the ram was connected with the sin offering. "So it is not the will of your Father which is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish". It is a beautiful incentive to go in the spirit of forgiveness.

J.T. I suppose the ram would denote the full development of a Christian; so you act from that level. It would be Christ as seen in this gospel in the fulness of manhood before God.

T.R. So whether you trespass or whether you are trespassed against, that is the ideal and the standard.

J.T. Quite.

Ques. Are you suggesting that we learn to recover our brother before we become preachers according to Mark?

J.T. The question of preaching does not enter into this; it is more administration in the house, that is, how we get on together first of all, and because offences will come, whether we are great

enough to gain our brother. If we have lost our brother, we want to gain him. If we fail in that personally, "between thee and him alone", then we are told to "take with thee one or two more", which I am sure many of us have proved and learnt the wisdom of, and failing that, we finally have recourse to the assembly. "Tell it to the assembly".

D.L.H. Is not the assembly the vessel in which divine grace finds its perfect expression at the present time?

J.T. I thought so. God's thought was that there should be that here which might be appealed to as corresponding to heaven. Hence He says, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven". That is the assembly. The next verse is, "Again I say to you", which I think contemplates our own times, but verses 17 and 18 have reference to the assembly as it was set up. There was that on earth set up in this precious light, set up in the light, and dignity, and grace of sonship, that was in accord with heaven, and it was a very wonderful conception. But when it says, "Again I say to you", it seems to indicate changed conditions, so it is brought down to two or three, that is, God would in that way provide for the maintenance of the light and truth of the assembly right to the end. "Again I say to you .... For where two or three are gathered unto my name".

A.M.H. You mean in principle this can still be carried out?

J.T. That is what I thought.

A.M.H. I was wondering as to the kind of offences in question in this chapter.

J.T. It means that a brother is lost and you want to gain him. It is a question of gaining the brother.

R.B. How do you regard the binding and loosing here as compared with what the Lord said to Peter? Matthew 16:19.

J.T. This is the assembly, and was worked out at Corinth. The epistles to the Corinthians teach us how it would work out in a local assembly.

R.B. And how would it work out as far as Peter was concerned?

J.T. That was apostolic; he bound the sin on the Jews and released the Gentiles.

A.M.H. When you refer to Corinthians, do you get the binding in the first epistle, and the loosing in the second?

J.T. The second epistle to the Corinthians would bring in the grace that should mark us in releasing -- when the year of release comes.

A.M.H. Would Peter's act be more dispensational in character? This would be administrative in the present dispensation.

J.T. It is the assembly here.

A.M.H. Is the loosing the idea of receiving into the family?

J.T. Yes, I should say so. What has marked the late revival, when a number of Christians were led to come along, was that there was no hard and fast rule laid down. Love was active, and the brethren were ready to receive their brethren freely as brethren. There was no need for binding. God did act judicially later, but loosing or remitting marked the movement. Here binding comes first, but in John remitting comes first. He breathed into them. "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them". John 20:23 John's ministry is intended for the end to effect recovery, and so remission is first.

P.L. Does Ananias do the loosing: "brother Saul"? Acts 9:17

J.T. Quite. This "again I say to you" seems to meet the case. First there are the resources we have;

if there are only two of us that agree concerning any matter, whatever we ask it shall be done -- an immense thought -- and then "where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I". He is there to support them in maintaining the truth of the assembly.

T.R. I suppose we could only speak of ourselves as "two or three" today.

J.T. That is the ground we are on, I think.

Ques. Is there anything special in the way the Lord gives the word "my Father" here: "It shall be done for them of my Father"?

J.T. It is what marks this gospel.

J.J. Would you say a little more about verse 20, because it has been rather limited to one kind of meeting: "Where two or three are gathered together"?

J.T. It is important to note that it is prefaced by, "Again I say to you", and then follows, "for where two or three are gathered together unto my name". It is worked out in the support that we get from heaven. We get it in the Lord's presence with us as we seek to maintain what is due to Him, and walk together in the light of the assembly.

J.J. You were saying on the last occasion that when we are in the care meeting it would be a very great thing to recognise the Lord with us.

J.T. I think it applies peculiarly to that. It is not limited to that, but it applies in endeavouring to deal with evil; it is the presence of the Lord. "There am I"; it is the presence of the Lord with the two or three. I think God has great regard for the assembly and He intends it should be maintained to the end; so there is power available.

Ques. Does the verse go further than the prayer meeting?

J.T. The prayer meeting might be included in it, but the Lord is bringing the thing down to the

narrowest possible limits, so that it is within the range of the very fewest.

H.H. What is the force of the word "gathered"?

J.T. It is a question of being gathered together, and supposes that we have the light of the assembly. "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them".

D.L.H. It refers to the actual convening or coming together of people who are in the light of the assembly of God.

J.T. I thought that; quite.

D.L.H. It does not refer to people being rightly gathered, as though it were an action of the Spirit. I have noticed there has been a thought of that kind in some people's minds.

J.T. We are concerned about things that affect the house of God; we have a sense of having to do with the things of God. If there be a serious matter, we are burdened, and we pray and come together in the Lord's name; we have to deal with it, and the Lord is there. He will be there, and so the thing is dealt with; there is power to deal with it.

Ques. Is it in the dignity of the position; and the spirit of a little child that the thing is possible.

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. Does not John in writing of Diotrephes refer to binding there?

J.T. I thought the second epistle of John is the thought of the sister. A sister, or sisters, may maintain discipline -- that is, sin must be dealt with. We must be free of evil, and the Lord will not allow us to be baffled. He will sustain us and support us in refusing it. Of course sisters alone cannot act in assembly character, nevertheless 2 John places upon one the obligation of dealing with a certain evil, if it came to her.

What this chapter presents is a question of offences that have to be dealt with -- really a question of

discipline. The Lord indicates that right down to the end He is with His people with a view to maintaining what is due to the house of God. The passage is really parallel in principle to John 14, "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me ... . and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him". John 14:21 The Lord comes to one there; here it is to two or "two or three", because it is a question of the assembly. You must have at least two for the assembly.

T.R. John is outside dispensation and brings in what is spiritual.

J.T. Just so; and so He speaks of coming to one.

Ques. Would you connect the thought of His presence in any way with chapter 16, "Hades' gates shall not prevail against it"? Matthew 16:18 In this way there is support.

J.T. Quite.

THE ANOINTING OF CHRIST

Matthew 26:1 - 35

J.T. I think the thought is to review the chapters from chapter 20 in connection with this one.

The anointing by the woman in Simon the leper's house serves as an indication of what those who love the Lord may come to by appreciating Him as presented in this gospel. Evidently she anoints Him in relation to the feature of the truth presented in the gospel; and inasmuch as it is in the house it seems a fitting response to what the Holy Spirit presents in the ministry of the Lord, for the idea of a householder is prominent in this gospel. The institution of the Lord's supper following in this chapter, and being also in the house, indicates, I think, that those who partake should know what householding denotes spiritually. It says in the Psalms, "He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children" Psalm 113:9, and I think this gospel teaches us how to keep house spiritually so that in result there should be a generation according to God.

A.M.H. Would you say a word as to how this gospel in general bears on the thought of keeping house?

J.T. You will agree that government has a great deal to do with housekeeping. We have the idea of householding here, as we have already mentioned, also in chapter 13, and then again in chapter 20, where the householder is brought in in connection with service; and later still in chapter 21, the same idea is again introduced. It is a feature of the truth that perhaps the Lord would emphasise, if there is to be further gathering. It is said in the prophet that those who joined themselves to the Lord God.

who took hold of His covenant, and kept His sabbaths, should be made joyful in His house of prayer; He would accept their sacrifices and their burnt offerings, and then it is added, "The Lord God which gathereth ... ..saith, Yet will I gather others besides those that are gathered", Isaiah 56:8. I thought perhaps the Lord might help us on that line because there are many being gathered, but in order that others may be gathered, God looks for house conditions, and it is quite evident that house conditions are largely dependent on the government of the house -- on the rule that is there.

In the anointing here the woman's name is not given, nor is it given in Mark, and yet the memorial of her is to be kept, so that it is not so much the person herself, inasmuch as her name is not given, but rather what she represents, and in these two gospels the memorial of her is to be continued. Evidently it cannot be continued unless there are present the principles that she recognised, for she anointed the head. The head was anointed in both gospels. Matthew refers to the administration of the Lord.

A.M.H. Do you think that would be the Lord getting His place in the house as Administrator amongst the saints?

J.T. Yes.

A.M.H. So there would be room in that way for what He would bring in of God?

J.T. If conditions which God can recognise exist amongst us, He would gather others; because I think the word in the prophet is to faith, "Yet will I gather others to him besides those that are gathered". Isaiah 56:8. There are many to be gathered, but the great thing is to have the conditions.

Ques. What are the conditions?

J.T. That is a large question, but an understanding of this gospel would help. There are other features

of course that enter into the house, but certainly the will of God is a great feature to be recognised. The Lord insists that those who are to be recognised as His brother, or sister, or mother must do the "will of my Father which is in heaven". Matthew 12:50

Rem. I think you suggested last time that those conditions began to express themselves in chapter 2.

J.T. Well, I think the wise men from the east begin the line of instruction by way of example, they find the Lord in the house.

Ques. Is the anointing here the climax on that line?

J.T. I think so; and then the Lord intends it to be continued in the institution of the Supper, which is also in a prepared house. We have nothing like that really in the gospel; we have many houses mentioned and the Lord serving in houses, but nothing of this character.

E.R. Do you consider that the anointing precedes the Supper in that way?

J.T. The anointing signified that she appreciated the Person through whom the principle of rule came in. This woman would be a good housekeeper; she represents the result of the teaching. She committed herself to Him, and the memorial of her throughout the dispensation is intended to maintain the principle of rule, so that the memorial precedes the Lord's supper, hence 1 Corinthians was written to assert the rights of the Lord in connection with His supper.

M.W.B. How would the thought of the house in Matthew support the thought of the house in Luke?

J.T. What predominates in Matthew is the truth regarding the kingdom of the heavens: "the will of my Father which is in heaven". Matthew 12:50. I think he emphasises the rule of the house, so that in his gospel it is a king made a marriage for his son, but in Luke it is a certain man made a great supper. Matthew emphasises the rule and the authority of the kingdom.

Luke has the house in view, but it is rather that it should be full; all things are ready, but there is nothing about the king's discrimination. Matthew carries the thought of government right to the end, so we see in chapter 25 the completion of it in regard of the nations -- the goats go away into everlasting punishment and the righteous into life eternal. He pursues the thought of rule to its final end. Luke is more concerned about bringing in souls; God would have His house full.

P.L. God's majesty and glory are referred to at the beginning of chapter 2, "We have seen his star in the east and are come to worship him". Matthew 2:3. Would that be what the woman appreciated in the Lord?

J.T. I think that is very suggestive.

E.R. The appreciation of the woman showed that the end -- the object -- of that gospel had been reached.

J.T. Yes. If you take the four anointings in the gospels, you get the complete thought of Christ femininely --the thoughts presented in Christ reproduced in the woman. There are four anointings, one in each gospel, and taken together they represent a blend which God can anoint -- the Christ. "So also is the Christ". 1 Corinthians 12:12 There is that brought out subjectively in the saints to which God can commit Himself.

Ques. How do you take the thought of "she has done it for my burying", in regard of what you are saying?

J.T. He was on His way to die and she indicates divine instinct as to the situation.

A.M.H. Do you think the effect of this kind of action is what you get in Corinthians, one coming amongst us and saying, "God is in you of a truth"? 1 Corinthians 14:25.

J.T. I think that is right. What the apostle is aiming at in the first letter is to bring about conditions necessary to the Christ -- the anointed vessel. They were not there as yet, but he is aiming at it, and the second letter would show that he has reached it,

because he speaks about the communion of the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Would you say what you had in mind with regard to the four anointings?

J.T. This anointing refers to the kingdom of God in the house -- the house of God. I do not say exclusively so, because other features necessarily enter into Matthew, but in anointing His head the woman intimated that she recognised that He was the Vessel whom God had anointed for government. Anyone corresponding to her would not submit to a bishop or archbishop or anything of that sort, and thus deliverance would be realised from the hierarchical system; they cannot exist together. The memorial of this woman is a rebuke to all that, and delivers the people of God from it.

Ques. Do you mean that if we are to take part in rule in the house of God, we have to be formed according to the model set before us in Christ in Matthew?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, and this woman indicates that she has apprehended the thought because she anoints the head. In Luke and John it is the feet that are anointed, but this refers to His initial function in the house of God. There is for her no other person able to exercise rule save this Man. Of course, elders and those who take part in the rule of the house of God would reflect this.

Titus was to ordain elders in every city, but he would require to know the teaching of Matthew in order to determine the qualifications of an elder.

A.M.H. Receiving direction from Christ would work out in great unity amongst the saints.

J.T. It would indeed. Do you not think the need for elders is very great?

A.M.H. Yes, I do; and to recognise what the Lord might raise up in that way.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Do you suggest they have their place today?

J.T. Elders as formed by this gospel are greatly needed in the house of God. "Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars". Proverbs 9:1. Now an elder would be according to that; he would be wise. The elders in Revelation 4, I suppose, are symbolical of what all elders should be. They are around the throne; there are twenty-four of them with golden crowns. That would indicate a knowledge of God and divine approval. Then when the living creatures praise and say, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come", Revelation 4:8 the elders fall down and worship; that is, they see that the creation is secured for God and they give a reason for their worship. They say, too, that God is entitled to this because for His pleasure they are and were created. So that elders among the people of God involves the intelligence acquired by experience with God, and God knows how to give the golden crowns indicating divine approval. It is not what one takes on or assumes, but what God provides and the saints recognise that; they recognise these crowns as of God.

S.J.B.C. It is remarkable the intelligence the elders display in Revelation.

J.T. Yes. Then the elders give an account of things; they always have intelligence. Who are they? Whence came they? The elder knows: "My lord, thou knowest". Revelation 7:14.

H.F.N. Is that why so much is made of the elders in Acts 20? Paul sent for them and they fall on Paul's neck and kiss him.

J.T. They evidently represented there the affection of the assembly.

R.B. Do you mean that the memorial is preserved in the house of God by persons who are morally like this woman, and they would answer to the elders?

J.T. I think that is how it works out.

Rem. So the woman and what she had are not separated. It is not something she had to get. It is a "woman having".

J.T. What she had is not separated from her; I think that is right. I do not see how we can have the memorial of the woman without the conditions.

J.J. Do you mean that each gospel would produce the kind of person you have indicated?

J.T. Mark also records this incident, and he also says that the woman anointed His head. There I think she refers to service -- levitical work as set forth in perfection in Christ. Of course, the rule of the assembly and the levitical service are combined in one Person, but in Mark the memorial is also to be continued and would refer to efficiency in service.

M.W.B. Would you link Matthew with what is local and administrative, and Mark with that which is levitical and therefore universal?

J.T. Yes, I think that is right.

S.J.B.C. I thought the anointing in Mark is put in connection with His prophetical character. Mark

presents Him in the prophet's character, does he not?

J.T. Well, that is so; in Mark it is the Servant-prophet; it is the Levite's gospel. The Lord did things well and promptly. We get things combined both as to government in the house of God and service carried on there. These two features were to be carried down by memorial to us. Matthew and Mark bear largely on the public course of things in the house of God.

Ques. Would you connect the idea in Matthew with the end of chapter 11, "Learn from me"? Matthew 11:29.

J.T. That is a most important passage as introducing the new thing. That which relates to the assembly begins there. We have to learn everything from Him.

Ques. I was thinking of the way He ordered things among the disciples. Would that be His rule and headship?

J.T. Yes, and now we have in chapter 20 the householder employing servants. We have to take account of the principle set out there, that things are not to be entered upon on the line of a bargain. Those who come in at the last obtain the same as those who came in at the outset, and the householder says that he had a right to do what he pleased with his own. "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will in my own affairs?" Matthew 20:15 It is a question of the Lord's rights amongst His people.

Ques. Although outwardly a day of ruin, would you look for eldership amongst the saints today?

J.T. Certainly.

Ques. And recognise it?

J.T. I would look for the "golden crowns". Revelation 4:4.

J.J. The qualifications must be moral.

J.T. You do not want anyone recognised officially; it is a question of what is moral.

J.J. Would it be right to say that the kingdom and the house are interwoven in Matthew?

J.T. The kingdom of the heavens is worked out in the assembly, but the public history of the church is taken account of in Matthew in the parables, and those of us who are acquainted with Matthew will never ignore the public history of the assembly, because the Lord is judging now in the midst of the assemblies as He was at the beginning, and His judgment extends to the whole area of profession.

Ques. Is that why it is Simon the leper's house?

J.T. I think the house here would involve a certain reproach. There is no reproach attaching to a cathedral, but there would be to a leper's house. One has to accept that; we have to accept the conditions in which the Lord is pleased to be found. He was in the house of Simon the leper.

Ques. Would you say that that was like Micah in the prison?

J.T. Well, quite. The kings of Israel and Judah were each on his throne in the open space; it was a show day, and Micah was sent for to prophesy concerning the Syrians, and he says, "I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him", 1 Kings 22:19 and that really is Matthew. The prophet was put into prison for his testimony, but he was in the light of the position. The government of God goes on, but what is to be observed in regard to the present position of Christ in heaven involves that all the dispositions of God in connection with the nations have reference to the testimony. There is no other concern with God now. There is the gospel and there is the assembly, and these are the chief interests of God today, and all His dispositions on the earth (and He is in supreme control of everything) have the furtherance of the testimony in view. Evil is allowed to go on, and it is coming to a head, but it is allowed on God's terms, within the divine limitations, as I think these parables show. The kingdom of the heavens implies that God is in supreme control of things and that He carries them to an issue. Hence we see in the parables in chapter 22 not only the destruction of Jerusalem, but that the one unsuited to the marriage scene is cast out into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth; that is, what is unsuitable in Christendom is dealt with finally. The parables pursue things to their final issue, so the more we understand Matthew the more stayed and restful we can be, knowing that everything reaches its final issue under God's hand.

Rem. So Jezebel is eaten by the dogs in Jizreel.

J.T. Exactly; the ten horns shall eat the harlot's flesh and burn her with fire.

J.J. What is the meaning of the king of Babylon taking king Jehoiachin out of the prison and giving

him a portion at his table? What is the idea of that kind of government?

J.T. That would show divine consideration for one who had had a place among the people of God. You will find that often in Scripture; God comes in at the end of a man's days, even although he may have turned aside, and signifies His mercy. He does not turn him aside on the dungheap. He is very considerate of those who have served Him. Some of us were dwelling on the last chapter of Leviticus. A man might not be worth fifty shekels, but he is worth something. We have to determine the value of people; it would save us from being too severe or harsh in dealing with brethren.

A.M.H. Do you think all these parables which precede this have a bearing on present conditions?

J.T. I think they have. There are parables which deal directly with Jewish conditions, and then there are others which deal both with them and also with the history of Christendom. Parables that are specially called similitudes of the kingdom of the heavens take account of the history of the assembly, and chapter 20 is of great importance, showing that the Lord will hold to His rights to do what He will with His own. So if you come in at the last He will make no bargain with you, but you will get the same amount as those who came in at the beginning.

Ques. Does chapter 25 deal specially with Christendom?

J.T. The virgins do. Chapter 22 is the king making a marriage for his son; it is God asserting His dignity in the gospel invitation. Then chapter 23 deals almost entirely with conditions at Jerusalem; chapter 24 is the Lord's mind about Jerusalem and its destruction, and the testimony that will go on after the assembly is taken away; and in chapter 25 the parable of the ten virgins refers entirely to the assembly -- and the talents too; but the parable of

the sheep and the goats is evidently the future thing having reference to the final judgment of the nations in regard of the testimony that will go out to them through the Jewish remnant. We are in possession of all that light, and the issue of the judgment of the Son of man -- the goats going away into everlasting punishment and the righteous into everlasting life. Conditions on earth are fixed, and thus we see the history of the kingdom finished. And now we come to intelligent affection. How do we regard all this light as to Christ? What is all this to you? The normal effect of it all would be that all is carried down in connection with love. These verses suggest first the anointing of the woman and then the prepared house where the Lord's supper is partaken of.

M.W.B. The Lord, being brought before us as you have indicated, would make Him have a very large place in our hearts as the One who can take entire control of everything. We would anoint Him in that sense.

J.T. Yes; everything is made of those who have affectionate regard for Christ. That is the great end of it all.

Ques. I should like to ask why the Lord's burial is brought in in connection with the anointing.

J.T. It emphasises the affection shown. If a loved one is going to die, you have that immediately before you.

Rem. Because anointing as a rule was for a course of service here on the earth.

J.T. Yes; but she discerned He was going to die, and the bearing of her act would be taken up by the Spirit and applied to us. The Lord is not going to die now, but He is on His way in another sense -- He is on a journey -- for His present position is really a provisional one; it is a question, therefore, of how we regard Him. He greatly valued this action of

hers. Her act stands over against the hatred and folly of those who put Him to death.

P.L. Would it not suggest the bearing and conduct of such an one in the house of God?

J.T. Yes. She was not yet in the light of resurrection: "she hath done what she could", the Lord said. She acted according to the intelligence she had, but she acted in love.

Ques. Is it the same thought in Psalm 45:1 "I speak of the things which I have made touching the king"? The woman here had learned to appreciate the King.

J.T. That is right; she expressed her own estimate of Him. She is in agreement with God. God had already anointed Him. Now, in regard of Luke, he records the anointing at the beginning almost of the Lord's ministry, and it is the feet of the Lord that the woman there anointed, meaning that she discerned in those feet that grace had been carried to her. She anoints Him in regard of what He had brought into the world, in the sense of the grace of God in Christ. She loved the One who had brought it to her.

W.C.G. Is this the service of the Son of God who is the minister of the true tabernacle? Is it expressive of the character of the last days?

J.T. Surely. And then John records also that the feet were anointed. Mary had discerned that He had come in in life, and those feet were carrying Him to death. He was going to death Himself; He was laying down His life of Himself. He was not being carried. He was going to die.

Ques. Would the anointing in John touch the thought in Joshua, when the priests' feet touch the water?

J.T. I think it does.

M.W.B. In the gospel of John would it be our appreciation of Christ in the way we express that towards the saints?

J.T. It would work out in the way we act toward: the Lord's people. If He laid down His life for us we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. That act of His is really the foundation of the position. So that strictly we begin with that; we begin with John because it is only in life that all these other features are sustained.

Ques. Would all these features be available to the Lord at the Supper?

J.T. I think so; He would look for them. These four anointings really represent the beautiful blend that God anoints; as we get in 1 Corinthians 12:13 "for also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body, and ... have all been given to drink of one Spirit". One is what the Spirit does for us, and the other our committal to it.

R.B. Is your thought that what God anoints goes on to the world to come?

J.T. I think so; God would anoint what is according to Christ.

J.J. You were speaking about the Lord's supper in Matthew. Would you say a little about the feature of it in that gospel?

J.T. There you have a prepared house. The other gospels make more of the furniture, but here it is, "Where wilt thou that we prepare?" It says, "Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?" It is the thought of preparation. Now Luke tells us that the Lord sent Peter and John to prepare, meaning that Luke has more in view the furnishings than Matthew has. The Lord took the initiative in Luke and He sent Peter and John to prepare, because I think He intended that the features represented in these two -- in the one the rule of God, and in the other family affection -- should be the furnishings. But Matthew does not go into that, he simply records

that the disciples thought of the preparation and that it should be in the house.

S.J.B.C. What about the man bearing the pitcher of water?

J.T. Matthew does not emphasise the thought of ministry so much. Luke brings in the furnishings and Mark introduces the thought of the man with the pitcher of water because he is concerned about ministry. Luke tells us that the Lord sent Peter and John; he is supporting Paul's ministry.

M.W.B. Will you say a little more about the distinction between the furnishing in Luke and the house being prepared in Matthew?

J.T. I think Luke has in view what we are going on with now, that is, what the Gentiles are to have, and hence he does not say anything about the evening; the others do, they speak about the evening. The time is not so defined. Luke says, "When the hour was come", Luke 22:14 which, I think, means that the time is left for what Paul prescribed, that is, that the Lord's supper is not added on to a meal; "When the hour was come"; and then Peter and John represent, as I have said, the one, the government of the house of God, and the other family affection.

A.M.H. Do you mean that Luke gives the preparing?

J.T. I think Luke gives the furnishing more. Here it is, "Where wilt thou that we prepare?"

M.W.B. And then is the moral position suggested in the woman's action, the state or preparedness that Matthew brings before us?

J.T. I think that is it, and supposes that all is gathered up in those who partake of the Lord's supper.

M.W.B. You would have no difficulty in speaking of the Supper in connection with Matthew.

J.T. Not in one sense, but in Matthew it is the woman that is to be remembered; he is concerned

that the woman's act should be remembered; "told for a memorial of her". There is nothing said of memorial in the Lord's supper in Matthew.

J.J. Would the Supper here be something like in the early chapters of Acts?

J.T. It corresponds with that.

P.L. And the fact that not the two are mentioned but the disciples, "And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them", would that suggest the element of response as bearing upon all?

J.T. I think it does, and the memorial of the woman is what Bethesda ignored -- that is, the order and government of the house of God. That is the important thing to have before we have the Lord's supper.

P.L. It says in regard of Jehoiada, every man stood to his guard, and then there is the crowning of the king, answering to Matthew, and then the testimony is to be announced. Would that answer to the memorial in character? And then Athaliah is slain; that would come in in regard to the final issue.

J.T. And then another thing that comes out in Matthew and Mark -- the hymn at the exit. It is a very beautiful finish. They went to the mount of Olives. That is what is available to love -- the outlet. There is a connection with heaven in the mount of Olives.

Ques. Does that suggest an upward movement?

J.T. I think it does; they sang a hymn. In both gospels that touch is recorded. There is the outlet. The point is, the outlet is in the Spirit. It is the Spirit that is the outlet -- the mount of Olives.

THE LORD'S COMING IN AND GOING OUT

Matthew 13:26 - 52

J.T. Some of us have been noticing the reference made by Peter, when speaking in the upper room, as to the Lord coming in and going out among them: "All the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us". Acts 1:21. We were noting that, and that the qualification of a nominee for the vacant apostleship was that such an one had assembled with the others during that time: "It is necessary therefore that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us, one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection", Acts 1:21,22. It occurred to me that the Lord in the house from that point of view becomes peculiarly interesting, for the coming in and going out would apply to His being in the house; and in connection with that, the unfolding of what is spoken outside is in the house. I think it would be of interest for us to look at this subject, connecting it with the house of God, where only His coming in and going out are to be known now.

Ques. Have you in your mind such a meeting as this, as well as at the Supper?

J.T. Well, the house of God is a general thought; it is that over which the Lord is as having built it. He is Son over it, and He is a great Priest over it.

P.L. Would this connect with Timothy: "Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit", etc.? 1 Timothy 3:16. What is in mystery is now made known to the initiated.

J.T. Quite so. To apprehend these movements one has to understand the house and to be in it intelligently, which is wholly a spiritual matter. Whilst the saints are said to be the house of God in a provisional way, yet it is a spiritual house, and it has to be apprehended spiritually; one has to begin at the foundation, and take account of the material, as well as of the architecture. I refer to it particularly as corresponding with what the disciples had in the days of His flesh and after He rose from the dead, for the period was from the time of His baptism until He ascended. It says, "beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us". Acts 1:22. The house today is that which corresponds with what they had when the Lord Jesus came in and went out among them between these two events.

A.S.L. How do you speak of the coming in and going out now?

J.T. The Lord has the door open to come in here; He has arranged for that. It ties in the fact that He said, "The world seeth me no more; but ye see me", John 14:19. It is a spiritual matter. Judas wanted to know how it was that He would manifest Himself to them and not to the world, and the Lord began in His explanation with love. "If a man love me". The door is left open in that way so that He comes in and goes out; that is, He is free. It depends on the Holy Spirit being here in the assembly.

A.S.L. Yes, He is free. Have you in your mind the thought of saints gathered together?

J.T. No, it is more extended than that.

A.S.L. Because the house of God could not be gathered together exactly; it is too vast, it is all over the earth.

J.T. The house is never connected with a local company. It is always a catholic thought and one has often connected it with Psalm 113:3: "From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the

same the Lord's name is to be praised". On the first day of the week, the morning meetings, as we speak of them, start literally on our Saturday night, because they begin in New Zealand and extend westward to the Pacific coast. I refer to that, not to be geographical or literal, but to show that the house of God is a wide thought, and the Lord has all that; from the rising of the sun to the going down of it His name is praised.

A.S.L. Yes. Is not the house of God, perhaps, the widest thought of all as presented in Scripture; it embraces everything?

J.T. It does. "He that built all things is God", Hebrews 3:4. The "all things" are referred to as the house.

A.S.L. So in full result the whole universe will be God's house, but we are provisionally the house.

J.T. Yes, provisionally.

F.I. Do you mean that we can only be in the value of administration in the house of God as we are able to apprehend the Lord's present movements in relation to the house?

J.T. I think so; we have to apprehend His movements, His coming in and going out.

Ques. Do you mean His movements in the way of ministry or bringing about exercises in regard of an issue?

J.T. All of these.

A.S.L. Would you include in your thought manifestations of His love to individuals?

J.T. Yes, I would. That is what John 14 expressly states. Then Hebrews 12:14 comes in, because it is a question of seeing the Lord: "holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord". Hebrews 12:14. You see what He is doing; you are not misled in any way; you know where He is.

A.S.L. Seeing the Lord in that sense indicates that you discern His actual presence.

J.T. Exactly; it is a question of spiritual apprehension.

P.L. The house in John is linked up with an open door in the hearts of the saints. It matters little what happens here so long as an open door is kept for Christ.

J.T. He has got access here. The Holy Spirit maintains things livingly for Him. The Holy Spirit is here abidingly; the Lord comes.

Ques. Would it embrace what you get in Hebrews as to divine service? You get the house spoken of there in the beginning of the book.

J.T. Yes, quite. He is recognised as Son over it, and the Spirit speaks in it in chapter 3. He is a great Priest over it in chapter 10, so that you can "draw near"; it is available in that way.

P.L. Would you connect His movements in Matthew with power and support, and in John with love?

J.T. Well, I think that is just. In Matthew He is with us always in the way of support, mainly, I apprehend, in connection with the maintenance of the government of God here, so that in seeing His movements -- His coming in and going out -- you learn how things are in the house of God. Everything has to be learned from Him; He built it and He is over it.

A.S.L. So that the coming in and going out is not over, it is continuous.

J.T. Yes, it makes the house of God a most wonderful place; one needs to be spiritual and holy so as to be there, and to see what goes on there.

A.S.L. One peculiar feature in regard of the house of God is its being catholic. But it is open to even two or three who are in the truth of God to taste something of the fatness of it. The fact of our being reduced numerically to a very small number does not

in any way preclude the enjoyment of the proper portion of the whole house.

J.T. Is not that the point of John 14? First He comes to one who loves Him, knowing His commandments and keeping them, and then to one who keeps His word the Father and the Son come, and make their abode with him. See verses 21, 23. John 14:21,23.

A.S.L. These verses 21 and 23 of chapter 14 are very wonderful; they are intensely individual. The whole of the chapter otherwise is collective; it is the whole company.

J.T. Yes; in Matthew the wise men find the Lord in the house; the star did not guide them to Jerusalem, because the Lord was not there, but the star, "went before them until it came and stood over the place where the little child was", Matthew 2:9. They went to the house, that is where the little child was, it was not in a manger in Matthew. See verse 11. I refer to that as significant. So here it says, "having dismissed the crowds, he went into the house". Then the next thing is, "his disciples came to him", and that suggests that the opportunity is open to us to come to Him there.

A.S.L. And there He speaks quite differently from the way He does by the sea-shore.

J.T. Yes.

Rem. In the history of our souls we have to reach Christ for ourselves. No one can do that for us, we each have to move in that direction so as to have spiritual perceptions and sensibilities.

A.S.L. In connection with what has been said, I suppose the practical difficulty with regard to the truth of the house of God is that it is purely and entirely spiritual, so that it is only as we are controlled and taught of the Spirit that we can conceive the thing at all.

J.T. Yes. In Acts, in speaking of the Lord's ascension, the fact is recorded that those who saw

Him go up went to the upper room. That is a spiritual movement, because that place had been discovered earlier to them on spiritual lines. They did not need the man bearing a pitcher of water to direct them to the temple. At the end of the gospel of Luke when He was carried up into heaven they returned to Jerusalem and went to the temple, that is, they were there as witnesses -- they were God's witnesses there; but in the Acts after they saw Him go up they go to the upper room, meaning, I apprehend, that that had been discovered to them earlier on spiritual lines; they had found the upper room by following the man who had the pitcher of water, according to the Lord's own directions.

Ques. Would that suggest the Spirit?

J.T. I think the ministry of the Spirit. It seems to be a spiritual reference in the Acts as leading up to the great truth of the house, the assembly, because it is discovered on spiritual lines.

P.L. That spot would become fragrant to them in the unfolding of the desires of the heart of Christ for them. And we are safe, are we not, only as we pursue what engages His heart, that is, the whole assembly?

J.T. The Lord said, "There shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house", Luke 22:10. It is a word for anyone spiritually desirous of knowing the place. It is a divine provision. That preceded this, and so did the institution of the Lord's supper, and these precious memories of that place had the effect, according to the Acts, that they sought it out after He ascended, "where were staying both Peter and John, and James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James son of Alphaeus, and Simon the zealot, and Jude the brother of James. These gave themselves all with one accord to continual prayer, with several women, and Mary the mother

of Jesus, and with his brethren". Acts 1:13,14. They really, as we might say, went into the house where the rights of Christ, at any rate where those who represented the rights of Christ, were.

Ques. Would you say a little more as to Matthew 2, where the Lord is found in the house?

J.T. Well, I thought it is in keeping with Matthew's account; it is the dignity of the King. In Luke He is in the manger. I quite recognise that Matthew is later historically, nevertheless there is a distinction to be made between the manger and the house. We are on the line of the government of God in Matthew, and so it is the little child and its mother there; the mother was a divine provision for Him. But it was in the house that the wise men found Him and brought forth the evidence of their regard and reverence for Him.

Rem. You said that the Lord's coming in and going out suggested His having liberty. I suppose you would say that He must be allowed to exercise His rights?

J.T. Well, that enters into it. It should exercise us as to whether the conditions of John 14 exist amongst us.

Rem. We get His service -- the benefits of His service -- but as Son over God's house His rights must be recognised.

J.T. Yes, in referring to those who were in the upper room, the apostles, I had that in mind. The apostles represented His authority, and that is where they went.

Rem. Speaking generally that is why His services are missed today in Christendom, because His rights are not acknowledged.

Ques. Will you say how you view the upper room in relation to the house?

J.T. Well, it is what is discovered on spiritual lines. The Lord could have easily given them the

exact street and number, as we may say, but He did not do that. He knew well enough where the house was. He knew where Saul was; He told Ananias where to go to find him. He did not tell the man bearing the pitcher of water to show them the way, and He did not tell them the number of the room, as we speak; He simply says, "a man shall meet you ... follow him into the house", Luke 22:10.

Ques. Do I understand that in the movements in the opening of the Acts they were governed by spiritual instinct?

J.T. That is what I was thinking.

Ques. Their spiritual instincts were in exercise to find it. Is it not the same today?

J.T. Yes; that is how the house is to be found out, it is a spiritual institution.

Ques. You view the saints in connection with the house of God and you discover them on spiritual lines, would you say?

J.T. Well, I would have more the thought of the house abstractly first; I should have the idea of a spiritual house, and I think John helps us in regard of that, in that when the disciples asked the Lord where He dwelt He did not tell them.

Rem. I was thinking of "whose house are we". Hebrews 3:6.

J.T. Well, saints are the house of God provisionally. The thought of the house of God is a very wide one. Peter calls it a spiritual house, that is the thing to take in at the moment. When the two disciples had followed the Lord, according to John's record, and desired to know where He dwelt, He did not tell them; that is intended to throw us on our spiritual understanding; He says, "Come and see". Now, what do I make of that? I have got to look at it and see what it means. It is not recorded merely as of historical interest, it is something for us; and "they came and saw where he dwelt", John 1:38,39. He did not say to them. "Come and see"

until He turned round and saw them following Him; they had been moved already by the ministry of John, they were touched by it and they followed Jesus, and He turned round and saw them following. It is one thing after another. He says to them, "What seek ye?" And they say, "Rabbi, where dwellest thou? He saith unto them, Come and see". John 1:38, 39. That is the principle of John 1, it lays a spiritual basis in your soul. The house must be taken up first of all abstractly, and then you come to it that the saints are it now. You come to it in that way and you begin to look at the saints as spiritual, because Peter will have it so, "Ye also as lively [living] stones". You never heard of such a thing in the whole realm of creation; it is not in keeping with nature that a stone should be living. Well, I have to take hold of that; hence he says, "Yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house", 1 Peter 2:5.

H.F.N. You have alluded to the first reference to the house in Matthew; the last reference is in relation to the house of Simon the leper; it says the Lord went into the house and there the woman anoints him. Is Matthew 2 the beginning of the instruction, and would the completion of the thought be reached in chapter 26?

J.T. I think that is very good; she anointed His head, too.

Ques. What do you refer particularly to in His head being anointed in Matthew?

J.T. Well, it is so in Mark also, whereas in John it is His feet. I think in the anointing of His head the Lord is recognised in His official dignity. In anointing His feet He is recognised in His love; those feet were going to carry Him out through death, "Six days before the passover" John 12:1. Mary anointed Him for His burial. It was as if she said, These feet are going to carry you into death for me.

I think the woman in Luke 7 anointed His feet because she had learned grace, He had carried the grace of God to her, "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace", Romans 10:15; Isaiah 52:7. It was not for His burial there, whereas the anointing inside in Bethany by Mary had reference to the Lord going the full length; it was for His burial; she knew He was going to die; but I understand Matthew and Mark have in view the official dignity of Christ, and so the anointing is on the head. But your reference is very interesting because it is the end of the thought of the house; He is owned fully.

H.F.N. What Matthew gives us, as you were saying, is the rights of God in government, and the anointing would indicate the full recognition of that.

J.T. Yes. There is the full recognition of His official rights. The fact that it occurs in the house is instructive, and ought to have an effect upon us as to how we regard the Lord in the assembly.

H.F.N. So the wise men give us the first movements in regard of the house; they brought out of their treasures gold, and frankincense and myrrh; and the woman represents in that way the development of the education that Matthew brings about.

J.T. In reference to the Lord in the house, I think we see in chapter 13 how you get the unfolding of the mind of God there; those who know the house, and the Lord in it, are never puzzled.

Exposition is the first thing, and then He adds to that. First it says that His disciples came to Him, saying, "Expound to us the parable of the darnel of the field", Matthew 13:36. Well, He expounds that, but He does not stop there. That is a thing we might note. We may desire to know certain things, but the Lord knows more than what we ask about, and He will add more than we ask; the unfolding of the truth of the assembly comes out first in verse 44:

"A treasure hid in the field ... goes and sells all whatever he has, and buys that field". That is a further thought, it is more than the exposition they asked for; it is a new thought -- a thought which should be taken note of, because it indicates that the Lord has acquired rights of the whole world through redemption. This gives great room for movement in service in the gospel. He has bought the field because of the treasure that was in it. There is nothing in the way; He moves to get the treasure. First we get the purchase of the field because of what was in it, and then the purchase of the pearl itself. There are the two thoughts. And then He adds another thing, that is, the net; of these three things He gives instruction in the house, as suggestive of what He may do for us where there is inquiry.

P.W.D. Why is it called the kingdom of the heavens -- in the plural -- and not the kingdom of heaven?

J.T. I think it is because all the ordinances of the heavens have got part in the rule of the heavens, as some of us were noticing. Jehovah speaks of these in Job 38:31 - 33; they all have their part in the rule.

Ques. In suggesting that the house is a provisional thought, have you in mind that it is in view of the education of the saints?

J.T. Well, it is; so wonderful things will be opened up to us. The house is that over which Christ is as having built it as the Son. The Son is over the house, and the Son sets us free in it, that is, He gives us to understand that as being sons we have liberty in it and we see His comings in and goings out; then we have here opened up to us the mind of God. There is the full answer to the inquiry of the disciples and more; we need not inquire elsewhere.

A.S.L. It is important practically to see that the assembly is the house of God only provisionally. It keeps in view the other families that are to be introduced

in their various places in relationship in the house. You often hear the expression that God has secured for Himself a company that can worship in His presence; that is very true, but He has secured for Himself a variety of companies. We want to get hold of that. It is not simply and only the assembly, blessed as it is above all families.

J.T. The Father names every family. The assembly is the house now, pending Israel's reinstatement; then God's house will be in Jerusalem again. The assembly will be the tabernacle of God in the eternal state of things; Revelation 21. In the light that the Lord is pleased to vouchsafe here we get more than we ask for; we have the light of the assembly opened up. We get the principle of it in Acts 1. One thing we should notice is the room there is in regard of service -- testimony. The Lord has clear rights, universal rights. He has bought the field for the sake of the treasure in it, so that He has the right of way everywhere. Abraham bought the field; he secured it, and the cave and the trees that were in the field. And so, too, David bought the site for the house; he gave so much for the place. I think it is a principle with God that there must be ample scope, a free hand in the service; and He discloses that here in speaking about the intrinsic value of the assembly, the field and the treasure in it.

A.S.L. He buys the field, and then the net is cast into the sea; that is a universal thought. There is plenty of room there for service in the gospel; the sea is the whole vast expanse.

J.T. I think the sitting down and selecting the good is a present feature of the kingdom of the heavens, for certainly a mixed lot has been drawn in in the net, and it tests us as to whether we can discern the good. David said to Abigail, "Blessed be thy discernment", 1 Samuel 25:33. "Every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like ... a

householder". We are to be on that line. The thing is to be a householder, one who can bring out of his treasure things new and old. He has got things new and old, and he brings them out of his treasure.

P.L. Nothing would make us more discriminative and contributive than to be near Christ in His feelings of love for the assembly.

J.T. And then to be a householder. It is a remarkable place that the house has in Scripture; and the responsibility in the house, whether it is your own house or God's house, is to learn to be a householder.

P.L. You move householdly as a son in Matthew.

J.T. And then you have a treasure and out of it you bring things new and old. As discipled into the kingdom of the heavens you see how God has been moving in government from the very beginning; that is, you have the things old, but you have the new ones as well. Things are not old in the sense of being effete or useless, but more as being antique; they are valuable for their very age. Some of the things we now learn in Christ had been spoken of and exemplified indeed from the outset. To be instructed in the kingdom of the heavens means that we see the principles of rule from the very outset. God set the great lights in heaven at the beginning.

Ques. Do you not think that we sometimes look at the expression "rule" as something harsh? It is really the rule of divine love; there is love in connection with all God's governmental ways.

J.T. I think the ordinances of heaven, as some of us were seeing, are most beneficial, even physically. Everything in the world, we might say, depends on the ordinances of the heavens physically -- the existence of life, and guidance for men moving about. God has mercifully provided for the human race. All these things depend on the ordinances of the

heavens; how could men traverse the seas without them?

Rem. "Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion". Amos 5:8. There is order there.

J.T. Quite. Job refers perhaps more than any book to the testimony of creation -- the heavens and the earth and all the living creatures of the earth and the sea. Everything depends on the ordinances God mercifully placed in the heavens. They are not harsh; they are merciful.

A.S.L. The reason why we think them harsh is because we have got away from God; we are lawless. But what a terrible thing if there were no rule; we could not live without rule: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Genesis 1:1. That is the order.

J.T. Yes, that is the order; and He has set ordinances in the heavens and they have application to the earth. There are ordinances governing heaven itself for its own maintenance, and there are ordinances which have application to the earth. They are not arbitrary, they are benign, even physically; how much more so spiritually. The old things here which the householder has in his treasure are what he has seen in creation; and there are things, too, that God had already communicated, but now, he says, I see them all in Christ; they are connected with the new things.

Ques. What were the old things?

J.T. I think the things of the Old Testament; the beginning of Genesis 1 for instance, and we view them in the light of the new. We begin with new things. The householder brings out of his treasure things new. He shows them first, but now, he says, this is something one thousand years old, look how beautiful it is! You see it now as it referred to Christ.

P.L. So the Lord is filling their treasures at the end of Luke: "Beginning at Moses and an the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures

the things concerning himself". Luke 24:27. And then Peter in Acts 1 brings them out of his treasure.

Ques. Would you say a little more as to the scribe being discipled? What does that mean; is it that he has to be instructed, disciplined?

J.T. It means "taught". You are subject to the person who teaches you.

Ques. Is the thought of the house that you are governed by divine principles?

J.T. That is one thought of it; you recognise "the law of the house". Ezekiel 43:12.

Ques. You referred to David buying the threshing-floor of Ornan. In one place it speaks of fifty pieces of silver and in the other of six hundred shekels of gold being paid. What is the difference?

J.T. The writer of Chronicles refers to what David gave for the place.

Rem. I was thinking of the silver in contrast to the gold.

J.T. I think the silver would have reference to redemption, and possibly have regard to the price Oman would have put on the threshing-floor, but Chronicles would record the larger view of what David gave for it; he would have the place. We are not told how much territory he secured, but you may depend upon it he had in view that there should be no claim on the house of God afterwards. No one would have any right to say, I own that property, or part of it. He purchased it with gold. He gave gold for it because it is a question of the intrinsic value of the purchase by Christ.

BRETHREN

Matthew 12:46 - 50; Mark 3:31 - 35; Luke 8:19 - 21; John 20:17, 18; 1 Thessalonians 1:2 - 4

J.T. I thought we might consider the subject of brethren, and how we are to be in that relationship according to God. The passage in Thessalonians should read, "brethren beloved by God". I mention that because it points out what the brethren are to God, "brethren beloved by God". That is a point to have in view in our reading. We have to think of what the brethren are in relation to Christ, in the main that is the thought; but we have also to think of what we are to one another, and of what the brethren are to God. Hence the rendering is, as I understand, "brethren beloved by God". I thought it would be of interest to us all to look at this subject of practical import, because in the recovery to the truth of it we should look for the end God had in view originally; and among the many features that appear, the thought of brethren is one of the most interesting and practical.

It has occurred to one lately that the Lord is working now to bring about such brotherly relations as will enable us to walk together; and in order to determine where we are as to this, we may look at the features of the brethren as indicated in the passages read. There is a ministry, I believe, proceeding corresponding with that of Joseph, who is said to have had a house into which the brethren came, and in which they were tested and adjusted. Samuel also is said to have had a house in which he judged Israel, and Solomon, too. I refer to his own house, not to the temple -- the house of God. Where anyone who typifies Christ is said to have had a house, it points, I think, to what is personal to Him,

and what refers to the immediate sphere of His affections; so there is that at the present time. There are general interests, the kingdom and the house of God, but there is that which is the immediate sphere of the Lord's affections, and I think that His brethren represent that sphere; and if we are not consciously in it, there is a ministry proceeding to bring us into it. If we come under the influence of that ministry, we shall come into that sphere -- the sphere of the immediate affections of the Lord. John 20 gives the highest thought connected with brethren: "Go tell my brethren", and presents the immediate sphere of His affections. We may be in the wider, more extensive and more general sphere of His interests, but the Lord is aiming at bringing us all into the more immediate sphere of His affections.

Ques. Is your thought that Matthew, Mark and Luke present the ministry needful for us in taking this up?

J.T. I think Matthew insists on the will of God, which would be a wider thought. Those who do the will of God are recognised as His brethren. In Mark there is a circle sitting round Him and listening; they come nearer to Him; then we have in Luke the word of God, those who hear it, and do it, meaning that now we have the thoughts of God unfolded; and then in John the formal intimation on the part of the Lord, on His own side, of the brethren as in direct family relationship with Himself and His Father and His God. The last presents the full thought, which none of us should stop short of, but many do. The greater number of us, perhaps, are short of that; and being short of that proves that we have not come definitely under the ministry of Joseph, or under the ministry of Samuel, so to speak.

Ques. Would you say what you have in mind in that regard?

J.T. Samuel, we are told, judged Israel in a

circuit every year "all the days of his life". 1 Samuel 7:15. He judged Israel in Bethel, in Gilgal, and in Mizpah, and then his return was to Ramah, where was his house, where he also judged Israel, and where he set up his altar to Jehovah.

Ques. Have you a thought in regard to the judging in those places?

J.T. I think the judging in those places represents some divine principle which the Lord would enforce. The first thing to see is that Samuel went in circuit. Bethel, Gilgal and Mizpah was his circuit, and in those places he judged Israel all the days of his life. Notwithstanding that a king had been asked for and granted, Samuel retained his service in Israel all the days of his life. That fact is typical of the Lord's present, patient service to His people, even though the many have selected a king, that which is in agreement with the nations around, in other words, are bound up with the present clerical system -- that which involves the rejection of the Lord in this light -- not a murderous rejection, for they were not intending to put Samuel to death, but they rejected him. Samuel said, "God forbid that I should sin against the Lord in ceasing to pray for you", 1 Samuel 12:23 so the testimony in regard of him is, he continued to judge Israel in these places all the days of his life. It meant he continued to judge Israel even while Saul reigned. Notwithstanding that the mass of the people of God today have selected that which is in agreement with the nations -- the clerical system is really in agreement with national religious customs -- the Lord continues to serve, and intends to do so. The Lord is continuing to judge His people everywhere; every denomination comes under His eye, and He carries on, and maintains His judicial attitude towards them. His judgment is according to certain principles; He does not accommodate His judgment to them. In Bethel He would judge in the light of the house of

God, which Bethel means, and so if He judges in Gilgal, He would judge in the light of the condemnation of man in the flesh, that which is a reproach to the people of God -- the reproach of Egypt.

Rem. Would you mind just continuing Mizpah and Ramah?

J.T. Mizpah is not so clear, but apparently has reference to the covenant, which is an outward witness, a witness between two, a witness between Laban and Jacob; and evidently the Spirit of God takes up the town with this name in Samuel, and gives it a place of prominence. The kingdom was renewed there, or set up there. It was there, too, that God gave the victory to His people, when by the command of Samuel they were gathered together there, and drew water and poured it out before the Lord and fasted in humble acknowledgement of their weakness and inability to meet the Philistines. It would stand for the faithfulness of God: "Hitherto hath the Lord helped us". He never relinquishes His love for His people. The Lord's supper would be the sign of that to us; the unchanging love of Christ is witnessed there; He is "the same yesterday, and today, and for ever". Hebrews 13:8. In His own house you come to a more immediate sphere, the sphere of His direct affections; and judgment carried on there would mean that the family relationships would be adjusted. I think that is what is going on now. The Lord would remove all that hinders the reality of our place as brethren, so that we should not be using the word without having the character of the thing.

Rem. It was on the occasion of the second visit to Joseph that they came into the house.

J.T. That is interesting; he spoke roughly to them at first.

Ques. I was just going to ask as to the connection between what immediately precedes the passages we

read in Matthew and Mark -- the evidence of His rejection.

J.T. The natural relationship is given up. His rejection had brought out that the relationship after the flesh is disowned, so one is to forget one's own kindred and father's house, "so shall the king greatly desire thy beauty". Psalm 45:11. We have to begin by disallowing the natural.

Rem. So the relationship would be of a spiritual character. It would rather suggest that it is a new generation in John.

J.T. Yes, it does; the position of children of God is given to those who have received Him; but then they have been born of God, "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man". John 1:13.

Ques. Would Psalm 133 suggest the relationship enjoyed?

J.T. I think it would -- the goodness and pleasantness of it, and what it is like; it would agree with Thessalonians, "brethren beloved by God". It is a most beautiful statement, as though God would look down on this Thessalonian company, marked by these things that are mentioned, and would see in them what His heart could take pleasure in. They were brethren, but such as were beloved by God.

Ques. Is it a relationship that particularly belongs to this life, while we are here?

J.T. I think it goes into eternity, "Firstborn of many brethren". Romans 8:29. I think it is a relationship that abides.

Ques. Does it give you the idea of kindredship?

J.T. I think it does.

Ques. Do you make a distinction between doing the will of God in Matthew and Mark, and hearing and doing the word of God in Luke?

J.T. I think there is progress in it. Matthew is doing the will of God; in Mark He looks round on them that surrounded Him, but Luke brings in the

word. The word of God is that which declares to us the mind of God, and in keeping that we are recognised as the brethren of Christ.

Ques. Why is it the "will of my Father" in Matthew, and the "will of God" in Mark?

J.T. I think in Matthew it is usually, "My Father which is in heaven". It is the rule of heaven. The question often arises, what is involved in the kingdom of heaven? It is not only Christ there as Man, but the Father rules in heaven.