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Pages 1 - 164 -- "God's Dispensation". Melbourne and Adelaide, May, 1925 (Volume 73).

THE PREACHING OF THE SON OF GOD

Romans 1:1 - 4,9; Romans 5:10; Romans 8:3,4,14,15,29

I wish, with the Lord's help, to speak about the preaching of the Son of God, and the result for God intended to be accomplished thereby. Paul writes that God had revealed His Son in him, that he might announce Him as glad tidings among the nations.

The Son of God is on God's side, and has in view results for God -- both for time and eternity; whilst the Son of Man is on man's side. As becoming Man, He is available for man, and may be appropriated by men; and so in the gospel of Luke we have Him from this latter point of view, and He is seen in the weakness of a babe; He is seen in that gospel as in the temple of God having been brought there to fulfil the requirement of the law. Arriving in the temple, He is taken into the arms of one who had gone into the temple by the Spirit. He is held, as it were, by the race representatively, but nevertheless suitably, in a spiritual way -- in a priestly way. We have there God revealed on man's behalf. He should be a light, as it is said, for the revelation of the Gentiles.

Think, beloved brethren, of the immense service rendered by Him who at that time was held in the arms of a man -- held on the side of man -- that He should remove the veil that lay upon us -- that He should bring us under the eye of God, and that He should secure for us God's thought for man. How much is in that blessed Man for us, and how wonderful that even tonight we can claim Him in all the infinite depths that are in His heart. As Mary sat at His feet and listened to His word -- what disclosures there would be of what was in the heart of God for

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man; and He undertook to secure for man what He knew was in that heart, so that men were not only brought under the eye of God, but through Him we have secured all that is in the heart of God for man.

But in the Son of God we have One who is here representatively for God -- He is concerned for God -- He is concerned to bring about the plan of God for God's pleasure; and so I wish, as I said, to bring out from these scriptures the manner in which the great preacher of the Son of God in his preaching (whilst announcing other things necessary for men) introduces the golden thread, as I may call it, of the light of the knowledge of the Son of God, so that there should be, as the passage that I read indicated, sons of God; that these sons conformed to the image of God's Son, should be representative of God in this world, and at the same time be those amongst whom the Son of God is "the first-born among many brethren".

Now I wish to show that this thought of sonship was indicated in the Old Testament, and was worked out there, even in persons not in Abraham's line. I want to show by references to the Old Testament that from the very outset of God's operations, the principle of sonship was in evidence. It shone particularly in connection with the two great lines of testimony -- namely, the testimony connected with written records and the testimony connected with the creation. These two collateral testimonies stand out, working the one in relation to the other, and each indicating that God intended the result of His testimony to be in man -- sonship. And in that connection one is encouraged to look at the ministry of Melchisedec, together with the ministry of Elihu and of Jehovah Himself in the book of Job. What we find in Melchisedec is that at a time when men generally had turned away from God, not liking to have Him in their knowledge, he appears in the service of God.

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As representing the Son of God, it is said of him, that he was without father, without mother, without beginning of days or end of life. He was assimilated to the Son of God; being thus assimilated to the Son of God, he represents in his own person the features of the testimony whereby God will secure His great end. And so we find that he is presented to us as King of Righteousness, King of Peace, and Priest of the Most High God.

In this remarkable personage (appearing suddenly without explanation) is seen the whole testimony, or means for the accomplishment of the whole testimony of God. It is to remind us that God is never taken by surprise, and that He has, in the face of general apostasy -- of a general turning away -- one who maintains His testimony in the very highest possible dignity and power.

For we have not only a righteous man, as in Abraham, but the King of Righteousness, who can be King of Peace, and being King of Peace, he can undisturbedly minister to the people of God, for he was a priest of the Most High God. So that we have there, standing out in solitary dignity, one who is assimilated to the Son of God. In the hands of the Son of God not one iota of the testimony can slip; every thread of it is held with a view to the great results which the Son knows are cherished in the heart of God.

And so in the book of Job, corresponding with this great independent witness of whom I have spoken, you have sons of God coming up on certain days to appear before Him. Who these sons of God were, I am not prepared to say; but I am prepared, on the authority of Scripture, to say that they were sons of God, and that they came up according to the instinct of sons to appear before Him.

It is not a mere incident, beloved, that the Spirit of God records for us, that in those ancient days when

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the mass of men had turned away from God, there were those who came up before Him. They came up to present themselves before Him, and so, as He undertakes to reach His great end in Job -- which was no less than sonship -- He calls Job's attention, at the very outset, to the fact that when He began His operations upon earth, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy". It is not a mere incident. It had a great place in the dealings of God which led to Job's collapse.

The fact is that God intended that He should be seen by Job. And so He intended in the incarnation that He should be seen by men. The great thought in sonship, therefore -- in the Son becoming Man from this point of view -- is that there should be adequate divine representation upon earth -- in other words, that God should be seen. Scripture tells us "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). He dwelleth in light unapproachable, whom no man hath seen. But the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

So that the great representation on earth was through the Son, and we are told, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). Hence Job says, "Mine eye seeth thee" (Job 42:5).

Can we doubt, beloved, as to the representation presented to the eye of Job? What God presents to our eyes He intends to produce in us.

And so, in presenting the Son in the preaching, He intends to produce sons, and He does it. Hence Job says, "Now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:5,6). Is that all? No, beloved, that is not all. God intended that that man should represent Him, and immediately He called upon the three friends of Job who had misrepresented Him.

How many are misrepresenting God at the present time, whilst professing to represent Him? Better

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no representation at all than that God should be misrepresented -- falsely represented. So God immediately arraigns those who misrepresented Him in their speech. He says, you have not spoken rightly of Me like my servant Job. You see God now recognises His servant, and more than a servant. He says, you are a priest; the three men have to go to Job with their sacrifices.

You see God had something in view for Himself in all that wonderful service He rendered to Job. He did not intend merely to give the lie to Satan, to bring to our attention the shame of Job, and the folly of his speeches. His great thought was to bring Job out a representative -- one to whom He could send even sinners. He was in his place like Melchisedec. He was a priest, he has seen God, and it is said that God accepted the face of Job. Who can deny that there was in his face a reflection of the face of God? He prayed for his friends -- and God accepted the face of Job, and then God ornamented him and set him up in suitable dignity as His representative in this world. He enriched him. He gave him seven sons and three daughters, and Job continued for many years seeing, it says, his sons' sons, even unto the fourth generation. What a great result in one man, beloved!

It reminds us that God is working with every one of us with as many pains, with as much interest, with as much affection as He did with that man. For He has in view that there should be conformity to the image of His Son, for His Son is the image of Himself. He is the image of the invisible God. We have a perfect image of the invisible God in the Son of God, and the great thought of God is to extend that image so that there might be extended representation of Himself. Hence, as I said, we see all the skill with which this great preacher of the Son of God interweaves the blessed truth of it in his gospel; for

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the preaching of the Son of God is not merely the announcement of the historical fact that He was proclaimed the Son of God from heaven. It involves that demonstration has come about, for it is said that He was declared to be the Son. It is such an One that Paul preaches. One who is declared to be the Son of God. That is to say, there is a moral element for the soul of man in the great fact of the resurrection. So, as I said, it is not merely an announcement of doctrine. There is in the preaching of the Son of God, as declared to be such by the resurrection from amongst the dead, a moral element which, entering by light into our souls, received by faith into our souls, has its own effect -- an effect which, built into us in relation to other things, renders us impregnable.

And so the apostle begins by saying he was separated unto this great gospel. It was the gospel of God concerning His Son -- One, as he proceeds to say, declared to be Son of God. I would emphasise that, so that we might have the light of the declaration of the Son in our souls, so as to banish all fear of death and Satan's power from us. And so the apostle brings out clearly his position as a preacher of this gospel. How one is impressed by coming into contact with this great feature of the testimony which is introduced by this great servant, for it was not only when he actually preached that he served; he served always in his spirit. Coming into contact with his spirit, one would be impressed by the Son of God. He could say, "who loved me and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). He would overwhelm you with the sense he had of that great Person, and of His love! How he served, as he says, in his spirit! It was the controlling force of his life, and I venture to say he was personally representative of Christ in his life. He would convey to one's soul constantly his estimate -- his vision of the Son of God. He could say, "who loved me, and gave himself for me".

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And so he refers in writing to the Corinthians to the Son of God, "Who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), etc". He could say, "In him is the yea, and in him the amen for glory to God by us" (2 Corinthians 1:20). How identified he was in his spirit with this great preaching committed to him.

So I go on to show the links in this epistle, which lead up to chapter 8, where we find the great result.

In chapter 5 he says we are reconciled by the death of His Son. It is as if God would lay special stress on reconciliation as leading up to what He had in His mind. How can we arrive, dear brethren, at sonship without reconciliation? We cannot. And in order that we should be reconciled there was the death of His Son -- that expression of love. Think, beloved, of the death of His Son; think of what God had in view in the death of His Son. He intended that we should be reconciled -- that there should not be one shade of distance; and, moreover, as reconciled (for the chapter contemplates that we have received it -- it is something to be received, as sonship is to be received), it is said, "Much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life". How many of us understand what it is to be saved by the life of the Son of God! He lives in relation to us as the Son of God, but in order that we should live for God. That is what should be going on at the present time; the sons are to live and be saved by the life of His Son. These things are leading up to the great result. There are many other things in the book, I need not say. There are many details, but they are all involved in working out what I am speaking of, what I believe is in the mind of God. How He looks at the work! What it cost Him to bring about the result!

There is for us at the present the life of Christ. How many of us understand it? It is one thing to be reconciled, it is another to be saved from day to

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day in the sense of which I am speaking of it. Every reconciled soul will ultimately be saved, but what about today? God lives today as He shall live a million years hence. He wishes you to live, He wishes me to live. He is the living God. The thought is that we should be living, and be saved by the life of His Son. Think of being brought into the sphere of life. As He said "He that followeth me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12). But there is not only the light of life, there is the thing itself, and that thing, as it says here, is no less than the life of the Son of God. "We shall be saved by his life".

Now let us go to chapter 8, from which I wish to show how this life works. God intends that the flesh shall have no place in us. There can be no representation of God in the flesh. It had its day. One marvels at the wonderful patience of God with man in the flesh. He had every possible opportunity to represent God, and there was no representation of God -- the very opposite.

We find God sends His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Wonderful words! Were it not that the Holy Spirit uses them, one would dread to use them. Remember that God sent His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, so as to condemn sin in the flesh. It is condemned. And by no less means than the incarnation of the Son of God when He took on Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. God has dealt with it, and it need not trouble anyone. It is condemned. I have nothing more to do with it. And it is to the end, dear brethren, that we shall pay our debts, for we cannot represent God here as in debt. There has to be a complete discharge of all moral obligations if we are to represent God. See how He has done it; "That the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us". Just as in the well-known figure in 2 Kings, one paid her debts and lived

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of the rest. It is a question of the Spirit, beloved. In the life of God's Son, every moral obligation of His people on earth is discharged, every obligation is fully met -- more than met.

These are all constructive references. So we read "As many as are led by the Spirit of God these are sons of God". You say: "What is it to be led by the Spirit of God?" The simplest way I can put it is you are led by the Spirit in the discharge of your moral obligations. In loving your brethren, for example, you are led by the Spirit of God. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". We are now emboldened, as we are led by the Spirit. As so dignified, as led by the Spirit of God, we are like the Son of God. We are told these are the sons of God, marked off as the sons of God. It is no longer a question of life; we are marked off as the sons of God, as led by the Spirit. So we have not the spirit of bondage, but we have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, "Abba, Father".

Now you see the result for God. You have come along the shining way, commencing with the discharge of every moral obligation, led by the Spirit of God, not by the flesh, and you have reached God Himself. Think of reaching God Himself in our souls! Think of the road He took to reach us, and think of the road we must take! We cannot reach God in our souls in any conscious way except by the Spirit. We may use language others use, or sing hymns others have composed in the Spirit, and yet not reach God in our own souls. We may substitute mere terms for worship, but we cannot reach God consciously except by the Spirit. He has not given us the spirit of bondage, but the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, "Abba, Father" -- the spirit of sonship -- the spirit by which all fear is cast out. We cry by that spirit, "Abba, Father". We have reached God.

I would ask young people here: 'Have you reached

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God in your souls?' I do not mean do you know the doctrine of it, not that I would make light of doctrines, which are quite right in their place. But the thing is to reach Him! We cry: "Abba, Father", by the Spirit, and that cry is real. It is delightful to the heart of God, beloved. He gave up His only Son, and has received what delights Him.

Well now, I just want to say a word about the last verse I read. You see we are now on the mountain top. We read in Psalm 104:8,10, "The mountains rose, the valleys sank, ... He sendeth the springs into the valleys: they run among the mountains". What an atmosphere we live in! We breathe an atmosphere which is marked by the knowledge that we were predestinated and foreknown, even before the foundation of the earth. What an atmosphere to breathe! And so these verses deal with the hilltops of purpose, where we are by predestination. We read we were foreknown to be conformed to the image of His Son.

We have now come to what was in the heart of God in eternal purpose, and what actuated Him when speaking to Job, what He had in His mind as He laid the foundations of the earth -- sons of God. We were foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. I wish every one of us could take home with us the idea of the image. There can be no doubt that the idea will be carried on in the future period in which we shall be called upon to represent the Son of God in the administration of the world. I have no doubt about it. How shall we administer the affairs of a city or of ten cities, save as we know the Son of God? We shall be there in the image of the Son of God. Beloved, I would that the saints of God at the present time might be conscious of this coming day. Is that all? No. There is the present time, a time of representation, as that will be, and these constructive things in our souls enable us to be in true representation now.

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Then there is the further thought that He should be the First-born among many brethren. Here, you see, we reach what is entirely of God. He has His family, not merely a son of God, as Job was, but One in pre-eminenee amongst many. All are to be like Him -- all like the sons of the King -- all like Jesus. So that in being conformed to the image of His Son we are called His brethren, amongst whom He is the First-born. You see how God thus reaches His great thought. He has a family of sons after the image of His Son. Every one is seen, in whatever capacity, representing the Son of God; and as representing the Son, we represent God.

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EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (1)

2 Kings 1:2; 2 Kings 2:1 - 25

J.T. The Lord may help us to see from these scriptures the initial features of the dispensation.

One's thought is not to call attention to what is merely historical, but to show that the initial features were intended to run right through. What may be noted at the outset is the fall of one man, and the exaltation of another, that is, Christianity is displacement. There is the definite fall of what had a place, and then in chapter 2 the exaltation of another.

We read: "And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease".

Then we have in chapter 2, "And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal, etc".

A.H.C. Do you take Elijah as being a type of Christ?

J.T. Yes. One who was tested here. Elijah had come out suddenly unannounced, to assert the rights of God, and he did assert them, God owning him in a most striking way, and then follows a comparatively long period of patience. Ahab and Jezebel represented a state of things that called for immediate judgment. Yet there is long patience, but Ahaziah, notwithstanding all the patience and consideration shown to his father, is wholly apostate. He is turned to Baal-zebub, and hence the fall. He fell, whereas Elijah represents the Lord Jesus, or the great principle of what God approves. We may regard him as representing the Lord personally, in whom there was

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that which was absolutely for the approval and pleasure of God. I think Elijah also represents what God approves right through.

J.A.B. Then Ahaziah illustrates a condition of unbelief?

J.T. I think he does; a peculiar kind of unbelief. In the presence of demonstrated sin in his parents, and of all the long patience with them, he was doubly guilty. It is said of him in 1 Kings 22:52, "And he did evil in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the way of his father, and in the way of his mother, and in the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin: for he served Baal, and worshipped him, and provoked to anger the Lord God of Israel, according to all that his father had done", so that the arraignment is convicting. He is convicted. Before the judgment of God there is conviction.

W.J.Y. Do you suggest that the exaltation of Elijah implies that the man who came before him had to go?

J.T. I do.

J.A.B. Is not that principle of unbelief existent in Christendom today?

J.T. That is what I wanted to reach, and the importance of conviction. It is God's way to convict before He judges, so that the Lord said that when the Spirit was come He would bring demonstration into the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment. "Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father ... of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged" (John 16:9 - 11). There was to be in this world a means of conviction. The Lord had in principle convicted this world, but the presence of the Spirit would be that in a subjective way. There would be a demonstration in this world, an obvious evidence of the guilt of it, so that its removal in due course is

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justifiable -- "That he might be justified", as it says.

R.G.D. Would you say that Ahaziah resisted the conviction of the Spirit when he sent a company to apprehend Elijah on the hill?

J.T. That is right. He was resisting the testimony of Elijah.

G.H.McK. Could you tell us who Ahaziah stands for today?

J.T. The principle covers any person or power having an official place.

J.A.B. Exalting itself, and yet in unbelief?

J.T. Yes.

J.A.B. Do we all have to come to a judgment as to that, before there is positive movement in the power of the Spirit?

J.T. I think so. I think that in coming to that, he that nameth the name of the Lord would withdraw from iniquity. In naming the name of the Lord you are withdrawing from something that God must remove, and will remove. You have come to a judgment about it; that is, our position is established on moral grounds.

W.J.Y. To use your expression, would you say that this conviction is one of the initial features of the day in which we live?

J.T. That is what I hope to come to, that every Christian today should come to this conviction. He should have an estimate or judgment of what there is here that is outwardly in relation to God.

J.A.B. So our souls would recognise the breakdown, and the ruin?

J.T. Yes, and concurrently with the conviction to which you come, there will be governmental action on the part of God. Great Babylon, for instance, is fallen. That was a governmental action on the part of God, in order to make way for what we are enjoying now, but there was a conviction as to it -- conviction had come in -- the thing was convicted. The

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address to Thyatira shows that Jezebel was exposed, what she was doing was exposed. A way is made for the remnant, to whom the Lord addresses Himself, "To you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira" (Revelation 2:24), and what is in view is exaltation.

R.G.D. Would you say in that sense that great Babylon is judged typically in Ahaziah?

J.T. That is the principle of it. The governmental action of God has brought her down, and she has become a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. She is a cage.

G.H.McK. Would you say that is the case now, morally?

J.T. That is what exists, exactly.

A.L.M. Where does the conviction take place?

J.T. In the people of God. The point is that there is such a thing as conviction. It does not appear that Ahaziah was in any way convicted, but the conviction is here. The evidence is against him.

W.J.Y. Do you think that it is fundamental for our souls to enter into it?

J.T. I do not see how we can be representative in any way now, save as in that conviction. What comes to light in 2 Timothy is that we have got a seal, which I apprehend signifies the power of representation.

J.A.B. Does the third captain that presents himself before Elijah represent a man who has got some light as to what God is doing?

J.T. I think that is important to notice, showing that grace was available where there was self-judgment. No doubt, in the history of the assembly this very feature has come out where the mind of God has been seized in any measure, even though one is in the employ, or officially identified with, the man who is fallen; grace is operative, and it saves. The Reformation, as we call it, in Christendom, may illustrate this. Grace was operative.

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J.A.B. So that mercy really shines through God's government?

J.T. That is it, I think. It is most important to see that the government of God acts concurrently with His operations in His people, so that the way is made for us. We can reckon on that.

J.N.B. Then we can take notice of every public action of God of that character?

J.T. Yes. And you pray for those in authority, because God uses them, whether they may be aware of it or not. God uses them.

W.J.Y. Might we not be a good deal separated from all that is official around us, and yet be very weak in the conviction you are speaking of?

J.T. That is what I thought. You get at something which establishes a great moral foundation when you have the seal, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". Then the other side is, "The Lord knows those that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19).

W.J.Y. So that, in coming to a judgment and withdrawing, you get a sense of the Lord; and His power supports you.

J.T. Yes, and also that He will in due time deal with that from which you have had to withdraw, because if you have to withdraw it means that God has to deal with it, otherwise you would not withdraw from it.

R.G.D. Is that illustrated in Moses when he says, "Get ye up"?

J.T. Just so. God was going to destroy them. As withdrawn, I think we may hope to be in some sense representative, because the seal involves representation. That is, you are representative on moral grounds.

J.N.B. Of what are we representative?

J.T. Of God, in those altered conditions.

J.A.B. So, as our brother suggests, the two sides

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would be withdrawing from evil, marked by separation, and that which is positive, marking the people who have come to that judgment.

J.T. Quite. There is amongst them, or in each of them, the conviction of this world as it stands, especially as to what pretends or professes to represent the Lord.

R.G.D. Would you say that we are in the midst of that which is withstanding the testimony all the time?

J.T. That which claims to represent the Lord is really the opposing element now.

G.A.v.S. Would you say that there is a great deal of acquiescence without conviction among God's people; that they acquiesce in the thought of God's judgment of things without having really received the conviction of the Spirit, and until there is that conviction wrought in the souls of the people of God there is no room left for God to come in governmentally?

J.T. That is right. Hence, one who is really convicted of the conditions around keeps clear of them. He holds himself free of them, and thus he has got moral power. He knows that God's people are in these things, and he knows that the Lord knows them, too. But his power of representation lies in his rigid separation.

A.H.C. Like Abraham and Lot?

J.T. Quite. Lot had no power, whereas Abraham had.

T.R.Y. Would you say that conviction is continuous?

J.T. It has to be maintained. Abraham, it says, dwelt by the oaks of Mamre. That was where he dwelt. Lot was captured. Abraham was available to rescue his brother, but, on returning after the rescue, he steadily refused to take anything from the king of Sodom.

J.S.B. Has not conviction always to do with the conscience? If so, where does the heart come in?

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J.T. The heart is the seat of the higher affections, and it leads you to seek after your brother. It was the heart that was active in Abraham's case, and he undertook, and was in readiness, to rescue his brother. He had three hundred and eighteen trained servants in his house, and he took his life in his hands with these men, and pursued the enemy to Damascus, a long way from Hebron, and rescued his brother.

A.L.M. Does Rahab suggest the kind of spirit you are thinking of?

J.T. Yes. She had the flax spread out on her roof. It is the same thing. It is the principle of purity, so that it is, "Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness" (2 Timothy 2:22). Because in the pursuit of righteousness, as in the position of judgment of the official systems around, one has moral power, and, in some sense, there is a representation of God in these days.

G.H.McK. With regard to this question of conviction, Ahaziah had a fall, but he did not immediately die.

J.T. I think that is how matters stand today. Everything is put off. The government of God is going on, but the final act of judgment is yet future.

G.H.McK. Ahaziah was suffering from the fall; he knew something was wrong.

J.T. I do not think that Babylon has taken any notice. No doubt, they are well aware of their changed circumstances, and they are making every effort to recover lost ground, but they cannot. The fall is irretrievable.

J.A.B. Does Elisha represent soul movement that follows conviction?

J.T. I think he understands what is imminent. He understands that the Lord is about to take up Elijah. That is, he is in the full light of the one who is exalted. The great thing is the principle of exaltation, what is going up. With everything in the world

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now the trend is down, no matter how you look at it, down, down! Whereas the testimony of God is up. That is the principle. That is how matters stand now. I believe the Lord would encourage us on these lines to see that the principle is elevation or exaltation. We are waiting for it, and the expectation should be reflected.

A.H.C. In Revelation 4, it says, "Come up hither". Is that the viewpoint we should have?

J.T. I think so. John had gone through the experience recorded in the earlier chapters, and now it is "Come up".

W.J.Y. Does that which you have before you as to exaltation come out fully in 1 Corinthians 15, that without the understanding of the resurrection of Christ, and the raising up of Christ, everything was gone in Christianity?

J.T. They were denying the resurrection. Here the sons of the prophets would deny the ascension. That was the great effort of Satan through them.

E.S.W. Do the sons of the prophets in any way represent Christendom today?

J.T. Yes, I think they do. They represent those who have inherited light. It is not light that has been reached by one's own experience or exercises, it has come down. It is a common heritage, but that does not help. It may be turned into the most insidious opposition. You see, they knew about the exaltation of Elijah, but then they did not follow him, and, finally, when it came to the Jordan, they were fifty men strong. There is a worldly touch with that; they were in keeping with the principles of Ahaziah, and these fifty men are employed to set aside, if possible, the great truth of the ascension of Christ. It shows that we may be doctrinally right -- many may have the doctrine of the coming of the Lord and the rapture -- yet really not believe it in heart.

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A.L.M. Whatever they knew did not constitute them followers of Elijah.

J.T. No. Moreover, Elisha knew better. There are those who make much of these things -- the coming of the Lord and other truths -- but there are those who know better. "I also know it: be silent!" He had it first-hand.

R.M.Y. He knew the moral reason for it.

J.T. Quite.

A.L.M. They did not believe it, or else they would not have sent the men to look for Elijah afterwards.

J.T. No, they did not. So I think we are warned of the danger of holding things merely as crystallised doctrine.

J.A.B. And yet that place of inherited light is a place of privilege in a sense, is it not? Because, later on in the book, we find certain movement and exercises, movement in position. To have a place of light is a privilege.

J.T. Surely. They come out later, the sons of the prophets. Some of them came into accord with Elisha, but I think these fifty represent the worldly features of those who profess to hold the fundamental principles, as a creed, as a doctrine, without really believing them, without being characterised by them.

W.J.Y. Would it suggest what is Laodicean?

J.T. I think it contributed very largely to Laodicea, because Laodicea is just what is around us today. It is enriched by borrowed things. What comes out later in the sons of the prophets is that they borrowed. One of the wives was in debt, and another had borrowed a hatchet. They live on borrowed things. So that Laodicea is enriched by what she has taken over, borrowed from others. There are seminaries now in which the writings of those whom the Lord has used are recognised text-books; but that only adorns the professing system.

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A.H.C. They get light by it, but not life.

J.T. They get light, but it is not their own, not having obtained it through the ordered way, that is, through Jordan. You have to go through Jordan for permanent light from God. Christ had to go through Jordan for it, and He is not going to clothe the flesh with the thing that He had to die for. He had to die in order that the light should be available. You have got to follow Elijah like Elisha. You see, these men did not deny the Spirit, they recognised that the Spirit of Elijah was on Elisha. They did not deny the Spirit, but then they denied what gives the lustre and power to Christianity, that is, the ascension of Christ. They would nullify that.

W.J.Y. Are we not in this day peculiarly liable to that line of things?

J.T. I think the word is to go through Jordan particularly. Elisha followed Elijah from Gilgal to Bethel, from Bethel to Jericho, and from Jericho to Jordan. When they come to Jordan there are fifty that stand opposite. The same thing is to be seen now. Elisha is the model to be followed: "As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee". It is the tenacity of faith and appreciation of what one knows to be there, that follows all the way.

J.A.B. The principle of committal is seen in Ruth, is it not?

J.T. Just so. She would go all the way, even to death, with Naomi.

R.G.D. Where does baptism come in there?

J.T. Well, I think our baptism enters into it, only it is a question of being true to it. That is really Colossian ground, that we are buried with Him and risen with Him. You are attached to Christ in your baptism; it is not a mere ordinance to you.

P.D.S. When would you say Elisha was true to his baptism?

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J.T. When Elijah cast his mantle on him he slew the oxen, and cooked them on the ploughing implements, and gave them to the people. He then followed Elijah, and ministered to him. That is to say, he had full respect for the great vessel that God was then using. He ministered to him, and so, later, he poured water on his hands. That is to say, he was entirely with the Lord. It is the spirit of a Christian who is entirely with the Lord.

J.A.B. Do these four places that Elisha touched in the company of Elijah suggest necessary exercises before he comes to the light of the ascension of Christ?

J.T. I think so. They doubtless represent different features of the testimony of God. Each one of them represents some feature of the testimony, and we have to go that way if we are to be in the testimony, because it is a question, not only of being saved, but of being in the testimony, which involves being representative of Christ here. So that we begin with Gilgal. Gilgal, as we know, would be the judgment of the flesh. Really, it is the putting off of the body of the flesh, in circumcision, so that we have no confidence in the flesh.

J.A.B. I have to learn that I cannot be in the testimony in any power belonging to flesh and blood.

J.T. That is the thing to come to; you begin with that. Gilgal means that I have no confidence in flesh. The most cultivated, the most learned flesh, is of no account at all now. That is what you have to begin with if you are to be in the testimony. And Elisha had the great advantage of being in these positions in the company of Elijah, and clung to him, so that, as he reached Bethel, he would be made conscious of Elijah's appreciation of that place. Think of how the Lord would appreciate the things of God as He was in the temple, for instance. If you were with Him you would have a sense of how

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He regarded the temple of God. As He says, "My Father's house".

A.H.C. That would be Bethel, would it?

J.T. Quite. So that it is a great thing to apprehend Christ in any of these positions. He gives you a sense of what these positions are, and you get consciously into these things.

A.L.M. Does the journey of Elisha with Elijah suggest our entering sympathetically into the pathway of the Lord, and His sufferings, and the object of His death?

J.T. I think that is it. As you accompany Him, I think you come into the consciousness of these things. How blessed to be in the company of the Lord in all these positions, and to realise in your soul through His influence what they really mean.

J.N.B. What does Jericho stand for?

J.T. I think it is the testimony of the power of God in overthrowing the world. He has power to deal with the world system. The Lord said that if they had faith they would say to this mountain, "Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done" (Matthew 21:21). That is to say the Jewish system, representing the world system, would be removed by the faith of the disciples.

T.R.Y. What do we learn from the double passage of the Jordan by Elisha?

J.T. It is our death with Christ. That is, you are going through it now in faith by the Spirit. The first, I think, is that you go through it with Him; the second, that you go through it in His power by yourself. That is a question of the power you have in your soul.

J.N.B. In the first place it was his own experience, and the second time it was his coming back to the land for service.

J.T. I think that he is coming into it now in the power that he had in himself. He went over first

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in the company of Elijah, now he smites the river himself.

J.A.B. I suppose the test of the sons of the prophets, as applied to ourselves, is that we might get light as to these things, and be content with that, and not really know what it is to reach the Lord in the power of His glory, so that there is that which is positive marking us.

J.T. That is the thing, to get into the consciousness of what these things really mean. Has one ever been conscious that the flesh, however cultured or educated, is of no value in itself in the things of God?

G.A.v.S. I suppose the absence of that really constitutes you one of the sons of the prophets, does it not? Really what characterised the sons of the prophets was that there was very little soul exercise very little conviction wrought in their hearts. The consequence was that they took up things merely in their minds, without having passed through those soul exercises, which involved the appropriation of the real thing in their souls. Is not that the case?

J.T. Quite. And then when we come to Bethel, it is a question of consciousness. One wants to be conscious of the house of God, what it is to be where God is. How Elijah would impart to Elisha the sense of that. With Jacob, in the first mention of the house we have in Scripture, there is the recognition of the presence of God in it. Although He was above the ladder, nevertheless, He was standing there in relation to His house, and the second mention shows that God had actually come down and stood in a certain position, and spoken to Jacob, so that Jacob rears up the altar in the place where God had stood. He had the consciousness of being in the house of God, and in it to the pleasure of God, because the drink offering is put on the pillar. If we are in the consciousness of that, we want every saint upon earth to be in it. It is worth being there, and it gives us

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immense power in dealing with souls, to be conscious of such a place as that.

A.L.M. Would you say it is the great end to which God is moving, to have everything for His own pleasure? Is that the thought that is suggested to us in the house of God?

J.T. I think so. We would love to get the ear of every one of the Lord's people, and tell him that there is such a place. It is not mere doctrine, we have been there in the company of Elijah, and we speak of such a place and the way to it. Then in regard to Jericho, I suppose one would be made conscious of the power of God to overthrow it. What seems insuperable opposition may be easily disposed of if we understand the power of God.

R.G.D. Bethel is inside, I suppose, and Jericho outside.

J.A.B. So that to reach Jericho is really the end of that which began with conviction. We find that God's power is evident against everything that is unreal, everything that Satan uses to hinder that which is living.

J.T. Philadelphia has a little of that. "Thou hast a little power" (Revelation 3:8), that is the thing is there, not simply the light of the power of God.

A.H.C. I suppose we see how God works in regard to Jericho, that faith acts, there is nothing done by man in regard to the fall of Jericho.

J.T. It is the power of God, so that the ministry at Ephesus was the word of the Lord. In the ministry at Corinth, it was the word of God. Because the point at Corinth is to bring in the mind of God, setting up the tabernacle, but the point at Ephesus is the overthrow, everything is down at Ephesus. Nothing can stand against the testimony of Paul. It is the word of the Lord, what it is to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. At Corinth it is the word of God, because it is the unfolding of the mind of God.

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A.L.M. In opposition to idolatry.

J.T. You have, therefore, order emphasised at Corinth, but in Ephesus it is the word of the Lord; and then the love and counsels of God, and so forth. The world's power is disposed of by faith.

W.J.Y. Would you say something about the double portion of the spirit?

J.T. Well, I think it indicates the character of the dispensation. That is, the first-born's portion, which distinguishes our dispensation from all others. It is the very best that there is; what we may call adequate testimony here through the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, being here. Hence, there is plenty, abundance. No one can pursue these chapters, concerning the ministry of Elisha, without being profoundly impressed with the power that there was in one man, the power of God in grace. It is a question of the ministry of grace. This chapter is to show the way of it, the secret of it, how we may be in the possession of all the wealth of heaven.

W.J.Y. The spirit of the Man who has gone up.

A.H.C. Is that why the Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptised with" (Luke 12:50)? He could not give the Spirit to others until He had gone up.

J.T. The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified, so that, "If thou see me when I am taken", is a question of the mind in that way being elevated. Christianity is something come down from an ascended Man. It belongs to heaven, as the sheet in Acts 10 indicates, and comes down and goes up. So that, it is the testimony at the present time against the trend of this world, which is down. Governments are falling, all institutions are falling, however ancient. The most ancient one is about to fall entirely and be destroyed.

R.G.D. Would you say that the double portion involves sonship?

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J.T. It is the portion of the first-born; it refers to the Spirit as we have it.

J.A.B. Why is it spoken of as a hard thing?

J.T. I suppose it points to what it cost to establish this dispensation.

A.L.M. He could not have asked for a more wonderful or blessed thing.

J.T. No. God values our appreciation of what has been made available.

J.A.B. Does it suggest the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow?

J.T. I think so.

P.D.S. The Lord says, "Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son" (John 14:13).

J.T. I think that passage emphasises how God appreciates our desires. "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him" (Luke 11:13). God values the desire, we see the need and we ask. It is, therefore, to those who ask. It seems to me that Elisha was fully seized with what was needed. He knew it was available, and went in for it fully.

J.N.B. Does not the acceptance of the Spirit involve displacement, and that is rather hard for most of us?

J.T. I do not think that is what it meant there. It involves so much; it is no light matter that the Holy Spirit is here upon earth. We think of it now and speak of it lightly sometimes. Think of what was involved, before it could be possible.

W.J.Y. Is there not a tendency for us to underestimate the presence of the Spirit here?

J.T. Now, that is the point. Think of the cost -- the cost to God, and to Christ, ere it were possible.

G.H.McK. It suggests the smitten rock. The rock had to be smitten before the water could come out.

J.T. That is very good. The rock had to be smitten.

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W.J.Y. "Greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father" (John 14:12) suggests what is involved in the Spirit being here.

J.T. It is a greater day in that sense than even the day in which the Lord was here, but we ought to take to heart what is involved, and what it has cost.

J.A.B. How does the testimony operate? Is it suggested in the incidents that follow?

J.T. I think so. Elisha comes to Jericho, so that, instead of judgment in Jericho there is grace. That is our attitude still. We do not want anything else than that. We know the power that there is to overthrow the world, but instead of that, it is the new cruse, and the salt, so that the waters are healed. Grace flows out.

A.J.L. What is involved in the garment? Elijah's garment fell from him.

J.T. I think that we give up all that we have got ourselves, whatever it may be that is not effective. The garment of Elijah is effective; it stands for the measure. There is a standard of service, which must never be lowered, so that it is the garment of Elijah that he takes up. We do not want to take up anything else. If we cannot fill that mantle, then we pray and seek to make room for the Spirit in us. That was the sign to Elisha at the beginning; he cast that mantle on him. It was a sign to him that that was the principle of service. Elisha would just be concerned as to how he could fill that mantle. So the presence of the Holy Spirit here is sufficient to enable us to correspond with Christ. It is, therefore, incumbent upon us to rend our own garments, whatever they may be. They have to be discarded. I think that Colossians is the discarding of the garments, but Ephesians is the complete putting on.

J.A.B. Do the children manifest the spirit of apostasy which was seen in Ahaziah, and therefore nothing could remain for that spirit but judgment?

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J.T. I think that is right. They could be regarded as another generation descending from the sons of the prophets. We see how mere light without heart degenerates into open opposition. It is a generation now, there were forty-two destroyed. What do you say?

J.A.B. I thought that they showed the continuity of the spirit of opposition and unbelief. It had been in the parents, and finds full expression in the children, and could only go on to judgment.

J.T. It is no longer veneered in the children. Children are just what they are, you know; here, perverse.

A.L.M. I think it could not be little children. It is not exactly an infantile condition, it is the outcome of the generation.

J.T. Their will is active, they are old enough to have wills. I think it refers to a generation with these characteristics, they are opposed to the testimony of the ascension. "Go up, thou bald head". It was ridicule, the worst kind of opposition. It is well to see as to inherited light that in itself it does not save us from the keenest opposition, as to what may be pre-eminent for the moment, as the ascension here.

J.S.T. It seems such a serious thing that that should have been at Bethel.

J.T. But then what comes out is that, notwithstanding this opposition, Elisha goes on his way. "And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria". He is not deterred by the opposition. He goes on; he goes to mount Carmel, which is, I suppose, an additional feature, the place of pleasure, spiritual elevation, and then he goes down to where the opposition was, as you might say, set up officially -- Samaria, where the power of evil was recognised officially.

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EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (2)

2 Kings 2 to 5

J.T. We shall be helped if we see that the privilege of testimony or witness for Christ is within the range of all. In the little maid in chapter 5 it will be seen how every saint may be effective in testimony for Christ. Having this in view, we may see in the preceding chapters how we are to be developed in the light and spirit of the dispensation, so that any witness rendered may be effective. Elisha is a model for us as to the place the Lord must have, if we are to understand different features of the testimony, and if we are to understand how the testimony of God is become possible. All should understand the cost, and be able to render that which is due to God in the way of dignity and power. As the Lord said, "I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued (or clothed) with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). It is due to God that we should understand what these requirements are, so that as vessels, as knowing the testimony, we may be in keeping with it. To be suitable we should be clothed in dignity and power.

W.J.Y. Is your thought that the features of this chapter would follow on what we had last night?

J.T. Yes, including the intervening chapters, particularly chapter 4, which I think develops for us how the Holy Spirit being now here (for we are in the double portion of Elisha) a believer, having the possession of the Spirit, comes into the appreciation of Christ risen, as that chapter indicates, and then also partakes of the heavenly supply. Thus he is qualified to rightly represent God. He is beyond all thought of aspiring to a place among the saints,

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because his calling is too great for that -- he is set up in heavenly power. He is too great for any such aspiration or distinction that might come to him in the testimony, because of his gift. The little maid, I think, is a type of the witness thus formed.

W.J.Y. Although she was small and youthful, there was divine intelligence behind her testimony?

J.T. Yes, and her remark to her master was an exclamation. It was not a mere reference to a fact -- she was impressed -- it was an exclamation!

W.J.Y. Do you think our gospel preaching should be exclamatory?

J.T. I think it is a feature -- one is impressed with the greatness of the thing. I only say that to indicate what was before one. Chapter 4 is linked on with chapter 2, if we are to be effective witnesses.

G.H.McK. You refer to the intervening chapters -- what about chapter 3?

J.T. I think it refers to the importance of any good that there may be; grace being established, we should take account of any good even although it may be in questionable associations. The good should be taken account of -- there was good in Jehoshaphat. Elisha was very reluctant, and rightly so, to have anything to do with the circumstances but he acceded because of Jehoshaphat. Besides, there is a slight improvement in the king of Israel compared with his father. Grace takes account of every bit of good that there may be. It is the possession of grace, and the sense of the understanding of the magnitude of the reign of grace that enables one to take account of every bit of good there is.

J.A.B. Does Naaman typify a soul in exercise that becomes an object of the testimony?

J.T. Quite.

G.H.McK. I was wondering what is the meaning of the water being in abundance at the end of chapter 3.

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J.T. I think it refers to the supply of grace, which rises above the objectionable confederation of the king of Israel, the king of Edom, and the king of Judah, and takes account of Jehoshaphat. There was something good there. God does not ignore evil, but he recognises the good, "Were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, etc". So that, we should take account of whatever good there is in the world, whatever the surroundings, for, as the Lord says, "He that is not against you is for you" (Luke 9:50). When you come to test it out, he may be against you if it is a question of the truth of the assembly, but if it is a question of the gospel, he may be with you, and we can leave it at that.

W.McK. Could you tell us the significance of Elisha asking for a minstrel?

J.T. There was no help in the environment, I think. It was a difficult matter to bring in ministry under such circumstances. The minstrel, I think, would take account of that. It takes peculiar grace to witness in such surroundings, but grace is never wanting, you are never at a loss, the minstrel will supply what the servant needs. So that power came in thus, and a remarkable intervention it was.

G.A.v.S. Do you think the presence of Jehoshaphat in that company, in that association, is in any way analogous to the assembly in its broken state upon this earth; that, notwithstanding the conditions, divine grace is towards men?

J.T. Yes, and there is recognition of the good that there may be around us in these associations.

A.L.M. Taking account of them and identifying oneself with them are two different things, are they not?

J.T. Yes. I think we ought to go with them in our prayers. It is good to be well established in the apprehension of the position which this book indicates. It is the reign of grace, and according to Luke

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the preaching must begin at Jerusalem. God rising above evil, it must begin there. Then chapter 4 is the important chapter for every one of us, because it is there that we are furnished. So that one is impressed with what there is, and out of the abundance of his heart he speaks. It would be the epistle to the Romans, and the epistles to the Colossians and the Ephesians, so that it covers a wide field.

W.J.Y. Would you develop your reference to these three?

J.T. Chapter 4 gives you the whole three. I mean you have the oil -- the woman pays her debts and lives of the rest -- and then you have the great woman, the Shunammite, who is the continuation of the woman who pays her debts and lives, she comes to appreciate the vessel of the testimony. She had no previous knowledge of Elisha, it was a question of discernment. It is one thing to hear about the Lord historically, but it is another to discern who He is. She said to her husband that she discerned that this was a holy man of God. That is an important point to reach, you discern the Lord. And not only that, but she makes provision for him, and her provision is suitable. The room in the wall, the bed, the table, the stool, and the candlestick, are all suitable, so the man of God, as he passes by, turns in. He passes by, it says there; that is what comes out as the truth is understood. The Lord passes by, because now it is a question of coming to know Him. You must come to know Christ. I think in the passing by you should know Him, and it gives you an opportunity to think of Him and provide for Him.

A.L.M. How would you connect this with the epistles you mentioned? Would meeting the debts signify Romans?

J.T. Yes, the great woman herself is a Roman Christian. She was great in a spiritual way. Then she has the power of discernment, which is of immense

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importance. He passes by your door. The Lord puts Himself in evidence, "Who do ye say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15). It is a question of your discernment, and not only that, but now you begin to make provision for Christ. He cannot turn in if you have not got everything ready at His disposal.

W.J.Y. And all that is suggestive of the work of the Spirit in your soul, and makes us understand what is available in Christ before there is any thought of testimony.

J.T. Yes. The woman perceives that Elisha is a holy man of God, connected with God. Then the understanding of the Lord in this way as connected with God leads to another thing; the woman had no children, which suggests that you have not produced anything yet. You have paid your debts, and you are living, but what about the continuation of the testimony? She had a husband, but no children. And the man of God inquired what was to be done for her.

G.A.v.S. I was thinking what a solemn thing it is for the saints to get to a certain position, and then overlook the importance of being productive, so that there could be that which can take account of the testimony and carry it on in increased power and fulness -- that is where the resurrection comes in.

J.T. She gets a child, but she qualifies beforehand. She qualifies by saying that she dwelt amongst her own people, she did not want to be spoken for to the king. She had her own people, but no children. It is one thing to be among the brethren and to stick to them, but if the testimony is to be continued you must have children. So that she gets the child, but she has got to learn that the testimony is not to be continued on the line of nature. It is to be continued on the line of resurrection.

W.J.Y. Is that Colossians?

J.T. I think so. It is not Christ as He was here

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after the flesh, it is Christ risen. We have got to learn that.

J.A.B. What is signified by her turning away from Gehazi? She seems to realise that he could not help her in a spiritual way.

J.T. I think that is spiritual intelligence. Elisha has to come himself. "He stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm". The thought carried through in this chapter, I think, is complete identification with Christ in death. If there is to be representation, there must be identification with Christ. Colossians brings that out -- correspondence with Christ in us.

J.A.B. I suppose in the child she had an object for her affections, an answer to her desires that could be carried on in spiritual power?

J.T. All the exercises she went through and the sorrow were only to qualify her the more. Things after the flesh have to go, so it says, "The child is not awaked". Gehazi's effort was not enough. It was not a question of experience, which the staff would suggest; more than that was needed. It continues, "And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes". It was a remarkable operation.

R.G.D. Does it speak to us of the travailing exercises of the apostle? "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" (Galatians 4:19).

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J.T. I think it goes deeper than that, because it is a type, I think, of the Lord's complete identification with us.

A.L.M. Is Elisha here a type of the Lord?

J.T. I think he is. It shows us how real everything was to the Lord in bringing us into life; how the Lord had to take account of every detail. It is a picture of the Lord taking account of what we were in, and what He went through.

J.H. Do you say that this is Colossians?

J.T. I think so. I think it is Christ apprehended as risen, and we risen with Him, "Wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" (Colossians 212).

J.H. You were speaking just now of children, is it not right for a gospel preacher to look for children and desire them?

J.T. Surely. Every Christian should have it before him that the testimony has to be continued, and it is only continued in the power of resurrection. It is not to be continued on the line of nature. You train up your children with that in view, not on the line of nature, and you would obtain children through ministry.

J.A.B. Gehazi seems to have an official position, and a place of nearness, and yet is unable to accomplish anything. Do you think that might be amongst us? There might be desires to produce something, and yet while acting in the light of experience there is no power to bring the child to life.

J.T. I am sure that is so; it was very humiliating to Gehazi to have to admit that the child was yet dead.

G.A.v.S. I suppose all this comes under the character of spiritual experience with a view to being efficient in the testimony?

J.T. Yes, so that now she has got a child; that is another step in the progress of the soul, to apprehend

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Christ risen from the dead, and you risen with Him.

The next thing is "the great pot", here the sons of the prophets are again in evidence.

J.N.B. Will you make a little plainer what you mean by believers having children?

J.T. It is just that you have in view that the testimony is to be continued. If one is not prolific for God, there is something wrong. It should always be kept in mind that the testimony is to be continued.

J.N.B. And you think every believer should be interested, therefore, in this fruitfulness for God.

J.T. I do indeed, and this chapter is to show you how it comes about. It is not on the line of nature, but on the line of resurrection. Children are to be on the line of resurrection. This chapter is formation, so that the experience of this woman all culminated in the little maid, and qualified her. She was effective, yet obscure.

J.A.B. Paul had a son in Timothy to carry on the testimony effectively.

J.T. Quite. The difficulty is to hide your identity when you become effective, to retain your obscurity. Effectiveness brings you into prominence in spite of yourself, but to be able to hold yourself in obscurity is the great thing. It requires skill.

Ques. That seems to be an important point, will you enlarge a little upon it?

J.T. I think the secret of it is in this chapter. It is the way God leads you into the life of Christ through His death. You get prominence in His service. No man can be continually effective in the service of God unless he is greater than his service. If he is greater than his service then he is content to be obscure. The Levites are all first-born ones, their greatness is assured. We should get the light of that in our souls. It does not rest on our effectiveness.

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It rests on our calling. Even the apostle Paul's service could not add to that.

J.D.U. Is it from that position that this exclamation bursts forth?

J.T. I think so. You see how Paul, even in Romans, is moved emotionally. Perhaps the thing we know least about is spiritual emotion. Even in Romans you get it; you also get it in Ephesians.

Ques. Were you going to say something about the great pot before you went on to the next chapter?

J.T. With reference to the great pot, it is a question now of what we have in common. It refers, I think, to what comes into evidence as we go on, but it is a mutual state of things in which we all contribute. The danger with young people, and with all of us, it may be, is of introducing something wild.

A.H.C. Letting our imagination come in, and bringing in things that are not according to the mind of God?

J.T. Quite so, and we all have to admit our part in that; with the very best intentions you allow your mind to act a bit, and that is bringing in the wild gourds. Anything outside of the Spirit is wild.

J.A.B. The man who brought in the wild gourd desired to help, but he was not intelligent.

J.T. I suppose if he had listened to Solomon he would have known that it was poisonous. To use it for food was poisonous. Solomon would tell you all about botany, so that you would not be deceived by anything. Apparently, he had good intentions, but the thing was wild. The encouraging feature is that it is not beyond remedy; hence, the great importance of conference among the saints of God, readings, etc. God has blessed them because they give opportunity for correction. Scripture which is inspired of God is profitable for correction, so that the wild gourd is corrected, and you discern the evil in it.

W.J.Y. Would it be a practical application of

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gathering what is wild, the question of our private reading? If we read what is merely interesting to our minds, it might come into the common pot, and have an insidious influence that we little suspect.

J.T. Brothers who are studious and have access to books are in danger of admitting the principle of philosophy; Colossians deals with this very thing. Philosophy is wild. It may seem plausible, but it is wild and poisonous, so that we have to be on our guard against the activities of our minds. In the book of Proverbs there is training for us, and Solomon reminds us of the man that speaks froward things, and the woman that flatters; and these two are to be avoided. The man that speaks froward things has authority, he speaks philosophically; Colossians urges that that man has to be watched, and a guard set against him. The woman that flatters with her mouth represents the light side of things in the world.

J.A.B. The reading meeting forms an important part preparatory to proper representation.

J.T. I think it does. It enables us to adjust one another.

W.J.Y. If you were asked for a scripture for reading meetings what would you say?

J.T. I should quote Acts 20:11. Paul conversed after the breaking of bread. Before that there is discourse. Conversation means that others speak besides yourself. So, also, I think John takes account of interchange in his second epistle (verse 12). He was not going to say it all. Mouth to mouth seems to signify mutual contribution. Do you agree with that?

W.J.Y. Yes.

J.T. Acts 20 says that after the breaking of bread they conversed until daybreak. So that the present meeting should be a time of mutual contribution.

Ques. What does meal typify here?

J.T. I think it is the ministry of Christ which is

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corrective. As Paul says, "Not according to Christ" (Colossians 2:8), and "as therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him" (Colossians 2:6). What is in the great pot corrects and builds up. The man from Baal-shalisha comes in with what is excess. You have not only meal, you have got the "bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof". We are now in the presence of the fresh supply -- freshness. We all know what there is about the early yield -- there is a relish about it that people seek after. Cold storage things are not to be desired when you can get the fresh things. There is a great deal of cold storage stuff. First comes the bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley. You are impressed with what is fresh, the very beginning of things, you know. The barley is the first cereal that comes up. It ripens first. It refers to Christ personally, I think. It involves Ephesians.

J.A.B. Does the barley suggest all the strength there is for us in Christ?

J.T. I think it is the suggestion of starting over again from another spot. From another point of view you really begin in Romans. We begin in Romans from our side, but from God's side we begin in Ephesians.

R.G.D. Does it include "every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies" (Ephesians 1:2)?

J.T. I think so. It is brought from there. It says of the virtuous woman that "she bringeth her food from afar" (Proverbs 31:14).

A.H.C. Ruth gleaned in the field of Boaz to get the barley.

J.T. And she continued until the wheat harvest. The wheat is the saints, I think. The twenty loaves is the abundance of supply. It is not the administrative thought, which is twelve, but twenty. It is more what Christ is Himself. Ephesians is really God's

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starting point. Our starting point is Romans. So that the testimony as set out in this world is fully furnished. God sets great store by right furnishing in those who serve -- we are to be thoroughly furnished.

A.L.M. Would you say that in Ephesians it is what God has found in Christ; in Romans, what God has found in us, that which has to be removed?

J.T. Yes, so that in Ephesians it is "the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ" (Ephesians 3:8). Ephesians is a letter written from the standpoint of divine counsel. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).

G.A.v.S. I was wondering in regard to Ephesians -- there we have the Lord brought before us as brought out of death in the power of God. Would that express the thought of the barley loaves?

J.T. That is right, and we are to know, "What is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:19,20). He is in heaven, and one goes out in the fulness of that.

W.J.Y. You seem to imply that very much spiritual formation is needed in those who serve.

J.T. That is exactly what we have to learn, and I believe that if the saints of God had learned it many years ago it would have saved us from very much sorrow. Many undertook service before they really knew Romans. Those who were effective in their service were men who continued on in their toil until they knew Ephesians. Without that furnishing you simply expose yourself to the enemy, because you are sure to fall back on the prominence that your service gives you.

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R.M.Y. When you speak of furnishing, you are not speaking of gift, are you?

J.T. It is not that yet, but Ephesians gives you that, too. That is where you get it. Ephesians renders you greater than your gift. Thus you use it according to its relative value, and you see that it is for the edification of the saints.

J.D.U. You said near the beginning that all of us can have a part in this.

J.T. That is what we see in the little maid.

A.L.M. What you were saying just now about service is borne out in Mark 3, where it says the Lord called unto Him whom He would, and of them He chose twelve that they might be with Him, that He might send them to preach.

Ques. Would it be right to say that before service, lessons must be learned through following Christ?

J.T. That is what Elisha sets out. We have to receive the Spirit and then see the relation of the Spirit to that. Chapter 4 shows you what the Spirit is to you. You are furnished and sustained now from heaven.

J.A.B. I often wonder why this little maid so completely disappears: she had been formed for the purpose of testimony for God, and speaks in power, and then nothing more is recorded of her.

J.T. She is brought in here to represent the result of chapter 4. The Scriptures are always constructive; incidents are not thrown together promiscuously. So chapter 4 is to form us for effective service. The little maid was effective in obscurity. There is not the slightest evidence of any national resentment in her because of her captivity. If I am governed by national influence or feelings, I cannot represent heaven.

G.A.v.S. I suppose she shows in that way that she is one of the family of God, because she has those characteristics.

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J.S.B. We can think of the little maid as one who had no gift, but who had an impression.

J.T. It is not a question of preaching here, but of speaking, the outcome of being impressed.

R.G.D. Where do the servants come in who subsequently speak to Naaman?

J.T. As the work of God proceeds all that is necessary for its completion comes into evidence. It is wonderful how things come in to help us where God is working.

A.J.L. What do you call service? What this little maid did here?

J.T. She was impressed by the greatness of the position. She knew what Elisha could do, and she did not keep it to herself.

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EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (3)

2 Kings 5:15 - 27; 2 Kings 6:1 - 23

J.T. On Saturday evening it came before us that the little maid of chapter 5 represents the normal result in all believers of the teaching of the previous chapters, particularly chapter 4, in which we have the use the believer makes of the Spirit graciously given to him according to Romans 8; so that he pays his debts; that is, discharges his moral obligations, and lives off the rest. He fulfils the righteous requirement of the law as walking after the Spirit, and the Spirit in him is life. So that the Shunammite woman, who is said to be a great woman, is the continuation, spiritually, of the wife of one of the sons of the prophets who is said to live. Living by the Spirit we become spiritually great or wealthy. Then the Shunammite, it says, discerned that Elisha was a holy man of God. As one recognises the Spirit thus, he discerns Christ, not only as come to meet his need, but as related to God -- He is characterised by what is of God. And then she makes provision for him. The believer makes provision for the testimony -- for Christ is the Vessel of the testimony -- and also for those whom He uses. Then, being childless, she receives a child, and has to learn that she is to have him on the principle of resurrection, not according to nature. So the child dies, and is raised by Elisha. Thus the believer advances in his soul on to the truth developed in the epistle to the Colossians, where we apprehend Christ risen from the dead, and that we are risen with Him. Then, in the end of the chapter, there is a further thought, namely, that the man from Baal-shalisha brings barley loaves of the first fruits, meaning, as it came before us, the truth of Ephesians, that which comes from heaven;

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so that the believer -- reaching the full thought of God in Christ the first-fruits in heaven, and the unsearchable riches of Christ, knowing his calling -- is enabled to be effective in his ministry or testimony in obscurity. He needs not to rely on his official place, or the place his ministry may give him, but is content to be obscure; nevertheless, he is effective. So the little maid witnesses in a feeling way in regard to Elisha to her mistress, and desires that her master should see or stand before, the prophet that was in Samaria. Thus we reached chapter 5, which is before us tonight, and a further thought that came out was that Naaman had to act on the word. All his own innovations or additions, such as the talents of silver, the shekels of gold, and the changes of raiment, and the letter to the king of Israel from the king of Syria, were extraneous, and had no bearing on the great problem of his healing. He had to act on the word that came to him from the little maid. That word directed him to Elisha, and not to the king of Israel, and so when he comes to Elisha, Elisha sends him a further word, and he has to act on that. Elisha does not show himself to him at first -- he sends him a word. That is, our attention is called to the authority of the word of God. If a man is to come into blessing he has to abandon all thought of his own additions; they are of no value at all, but the contrary; he has to go entirely by the word of God.

W.J.Y. That scripture in 2 Timothy 3:17 would fit in there, "throughly furnished unto all good works".

J.T. Just so. Every Scripture is inspired of God. Do you not think thus, that we, at the outset of our service, learn to rely on the word?

J.A.B. So that the servant has a sense that the word is greater than his own service?

J.T. Quite. And then Naaman, acting on it, as he finally does through the persuasion of his servants,

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gets the blessing. He plunges into Jordan seven times, and his flesh becomes as the flesh of a little child. That is, he is brought lower than the little maid. He is now, as you might say, in correspondence with the vessel through whom, primarily, the message or light came to him. So that he, being as a little child, is prepared now to receive further light or ordering, and is qualified for the fellowship of the people of God. In order to be qualified for the fellowship of the people of God one has to be brought into correspondence with them in some measure at least. It is obvious that the great military leader of Syria, viewed in that light, was in no sense in correspondence with the little captive maid in his household, so that there was no basis of fellowship; but now it is different. He is no longer to be viewed in that light, but in the light in which he came up out of Jordan. Viewed in the light in which he came up out of Jordan, he is, in a measure at least, in correspondence with the little maid. I think that there is an important point there for all persons who would be in the fellowship of God's people. That is, there must be correspondence with Christ, and with the people of God. Otherwise there can be no link of fellowship.

W.J.Y. That is very far-reaching.

J.T. It brings it down within everybody's range, because we are speaking of a "little child".

A.L.M. Does Matthew 11:25 bear upon it? "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes".

J.T. Yes, I think so. And so the Lord, in Matthew 18, leading up to the assembly, calls a little child to him, and sets him in the midst as if he were to be a model, so that unless one is converted and becomes as this little child, he will in nowise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

G.H.McK. Does it correspond with 1 Corinthians 1

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where it speaks of God using the weak things of this world to confound the mighty?

J.T. Yes. This little child is material which can be used. You can start afresh. All the sophistication of this world is discarded, it is worse than useless. You can begin from the bottom with a little child; it is impressionable. So that the most learned or the most dignified in the community, if he is to come into fellowship, must leave all that outside -- he comes in on the basis of a little child.

W.J.Y. So that on that line we never lose the little child characteristics. No matter how we grow, or how much we learn, we would always remain, in our spirits, in that character.

J.T. We read, "As new-born babes" (1 Peter 2:2). There you have Peter taking up the same thought. It is, of course, a reproach to be a babe from another point of view, if it be a question of spiritual stature, but what we are speaking of now is a babe in contrast to what a man may be through the world's culture and education.

G.A.v.S. Would you say that Naaman had to turn his back even upon himself as the man by whom God had vouchsafed deliverance to Syria?

J.T. All that had to go. What God may do with him in His government, does not enter into the assembly.

A.L.M. Would you go so far as to say that he did go into the waters of Jordan in the spirit of his mind?

J.T. Well, that is the principle, exactly.

W.J.Y. I have sometimes thought that we may turn our backs on personal greatness for the purpose of entering the kingdom, but then we take it up again.

J.T. We bring it in surreptitiously.

H.W. What is going to meet that?

J.T. The great thing is transparency. I think a little child suggests simplicity, transparency, he hides nothing. There are those that you have to do with,

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against whom there could be no specific charge, and yet the body is not luminous; there is a part dark. "If ... thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light" (Matthew 6:22). The saints have no difficulty about you, if you are luminous; but if there is a part dark, there is reserve; and if that exists, you have to wait because the little child stage is not there.

A.H.C. Peter had to be exposed by the Lord when He said, "Lovest thou me?" (John 21:16) to show the reserve that he had.

J.T. Quite.

G.A.v.S. I suppose the openness and unreserve of a little child, as seen in the saints, beginning their Christian course, is really what gives favour in the eyes of God. They begin as those who have had every possibility of reserve removed from their souls, so that they can afford to be perfectly open, because there is nothing to hide.

J.T. Quite. And the little child is easily loved. I suppose that in the whole of God's creation there is no being on earth so universally attractive as a little child. So the saints can begin with one coming in, in freshness and liberty, and we grow up together in those circumstances.

G.A.v.S. How the interest of that little maid would have been intensified in receiving Naaman back! She had an interest in him in the first instance, but I suppose that interest must have taken form and become intensified when she found him coming back as a little child.

J.T. I think that they would have an enjoyable time spiritually as he returned. But then, you see, he is not thinking of her for the moment, he is thinking of the mule's burden of earth. He is thinking of God, which surely is the first thing.

G.H.McK. Would you say how he arrives at that, because Elisha had not spoken to him of God, nor had the little maid?

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J.T. He must have had some knowledge of God; we have here only a type, of course, but it is a type of the believer at the present time, he is a subject of the gospel. He has heard the gospel; the great thought in the gospel is to present God -- God in Christ.

J.S.B. The Lord took little children in His arms and put His hands upon them, and blessed them; if there is that character of transparency, blessing will follow.

J.T. Yes. And as laying His hands upon them He meant to put His own impress there. He identifies Himself with them.

But "this earth", as it reads here, has fellowship in view. He says, "Then let there, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of [this] earth".

J.W. Would it be Naaman's instinct concerning God that made him desire the earth?

J.T. I think the gospel, rightly presented, conveys every element that is to be developed in the Christian later. It presents God. It is God in Christ. So that, as the death of Christ is apprehended, which is involved in Jordan, the believer thinks of the earth. It corresponds with the divine requirements, as God said, "An altar of earth shalt thou make unto me" (Exodus 20:24). Naaman, in desiring this earth, two mules' burden of it, which would be a goodly quantity, would have that whereby he could bear witness in his relations with God to his estimate of himself, and not only so, but to his estimate of Christ as having become Man.

When we come to approaching God, which enters into this passage, we are reminded of what we were, but also of what man is in Christ; for there could be no altar, there could be nothing whereby we could approach God, apart from the fact that the Lord became a man, and took His place as a man on our side.

P.D.S. You would say that the altar of earth really brought before us the Lord as having come as

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a man down here, and constituting in that way an order of approach to God, which could only find in Him a channel and an object.

J.T. That is so. There could be no altar at all, otherwise. In Exodus 20 the altar of earth is imperative. The altar of stone is not said to be imperative, it is "if" -- "If thou make me an altar of stone".

W.J.Y. Do you think, in taking this earth from where Elisha was, that it would be a link between himself and Elisha?

J.T. I think that helps. I have no doubt that the New Translation conveys the sense, it is "This earth". That is, the earth on which he stood.

J.A.B. Would it not preserve him from any greatness in himself in the future?

J.T. Yes.

J.H. Would it not also be a link between him and the little maid?

J.T. I think it would link up Elisha, the little maid, and Naaman. They would be bound up in this altar of earth.

G.A.v.S. How did Naaman know about that altar of earth? He would not know the Scripture, would he?

J.T. That only shows that the light present is the result of the gospel; we have here only a type, we have to connect it with the New Testament, that the gospel conveys light to my soul. It is the light of God, and raises questions as to what is suitable to God.

G.A.v.S. It awakens a spiritual instinct.

J.T. Quite.

J.D.U. God comes out without any reserve whatever in all the fulness of His grace, and produces the desire to respond.

J.T. I think it is very beautiful to see here the evidence of right instincts in a soul that is newly brought to God. He considers for God, and what is suitable. Where these instincts exist, fellowship

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becomes an extremely simple matter. But where they do not exist, then we are compelled to wait.

J.A.B. How wisely Elisha seemed to foster the impressions that Naaman got; you see in Elisha everything that would make for development. Is that not what you have been pressing in these meetings, that there should be a condition amongst us that represents Christ?

J.T. Yes.

A.H.C. Gehazi, as a servant of Elisha, was out of touch with these three who had so much in common. What would that speak to us of today?

J.T. He goes right against the feature of the truth that had been emphasised, and that always brings in, or leads to, the will of the flesh. Satan working through the will of the flesh will always oppose what is specially emphasised, and Elisha had emphasised in his replies to Naaman that he would take nothing from him. That meant something. Now Gehazi ignores it, and goes straight against it, and in doing so, he lies; but the most serious part of it is that he misrepresents Elisha. Our fellowship is intended to represent God, to represent Christ, so that one can easily see how the precious thought was marred, that Naaman had received into his soul of Elisha. He would be glad to give what was asked, but then the obvious impression left on him would be that Elisha had changed his mind -- that he was changeable.

P.D.S. Would you say Gehazi did not know what it was to stand before Jehovah?

J.T. Just so.

A.J.L. Would that be the enemy seeking to destroy the fellowship?

J.T. Exactly. It marred the whole circumstance in the mind of Naaman. The whole position was beclouded, showing how any one of us, through allowing lust, or desire, or pride, may mar the whole

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position, because it is a question of partnership, and what one does, involves all.

G.A.v.S. The fellowship depends upon the recognition of Jesus Christ -- the same yesterday, today, and for ever.

J.T. Yes, that is it.

W.J.Y. The fellowship involves the knowledge of God.

J.T. Yes. It is in the light, as God is in the light.

R.G.D. Did Ananias and Sapphira mar the fellowship?

J.T. They did, indeed.

J.N.B. I suppose we have another example in Peter's mistake at Antioch. It was very damaging to others.

J.T. Yes.

A.H.C. Would you say that in the fellowship we are so enriched that we are able to ignore any other offers that come in?

J.T. At this stage in the history of a believer you do not wish him to expect that he has to pay for anything -- that things are on the principle of reward. At this stage everything is from God. It is gift on the principle of faith; it is the reign of grace.

J.H. Why do you say, "at this stage"?

J.T. Because we are dealing here with the young believer. He has not even begun to worship yet. You are not going to take from him at this stage.

J.A.B. Gehazi seemed to demand a recognition of persons.

J.T. You see what he brings in, "from mount Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets"! He is on the line of the flesh, the first-born, Ephraim. He had already been rejected. God had chosen Judah and mount Zion. Gehazi is thinking of mount Ephraim. It is always so; the flesh always run on those lines.

W.J.Y. Every spiritual instinct rebels against the

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thought of connecting gain with the grace of God.

J.T. Simon Magus thought he could purchase the Spirit with money! It is most important that a young believer should understand that divine things are on the principle of pure grace.

H.W. Would Gehazi represent an official line developing among the saints?

J.T. I am sure he does -- those who regard gain as the end of godliness.

G.H.McK. Would you say that it was a very wrong impression to give Naaman that Elisha had changed his mind?

J.T. I am sure it was; it was a complete misrepresentation. There is no change in the dispensation. We want to keep clear, as our brother said, that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8).

Now when we come to chapter 6, we have another side of the truth, and that is the question of expansion. The desire for expansion is right, but is very likely to be taken up by us on the line of the flesh, or fleshly energy. "Behold now" (the sons of the prophets say) "the place where we dwell before thee is too straight for us".

Ques. It is all a question of what prompts the desire?

J.T. I think expansion is a right thought, but if it takes the form of big meetings, or increased numbers, then we are on dangerous lines.

W.J.Y. That is, if we are working for these things?

J.T. Yes, you are delighted if they come on the lines indicated in this chapter. That is, if they come on the principle of life out of death. The great truth that comes out is in the iron being made to swim. That is to say, the demonstration of the Son of God. He is "declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection

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from the dead" (Romans 1:4). Expansion must be on those lines in that connection.

J.A.B. The thought of expansion seems to be given expression to first by the sons of the prophets in company. Do you think the one who desired that E]isha should go with them, suggests a man really taking it up in exercise?

J.T. I think so. The sons of the prophets here are more in accord with the truth than we have yet seen them, but there was still adjustment needed.

A.H.C. You said the other evening, in regard to the sons of the prophets, that they borrowed things, and that there was that characteristic today.

J.T. I think that borrowing is a very common practice, spiritually, at the present time. We take up what others have said and use it without, as it were, going through Jordan with it. You see, Elisha gives us a lead in this book, he goes all the way with Elijah -- all the way over Jordan. The sons of the prophets did not go that way, and this is the exposure of it. You may preach a good sermon, and the Lord may bless it even -- for they were cutting down trees -- they were actually doing it -- but presently something will happen, and it will come to light that you have been working with a borrowed tool, and that is a humiliating thing.

G.A.v.S. To adopt even the spiritual idea without a spiritual soil for its development must stunt the soul without in any way enlarging or causing expansion of spiritual perceptions.

J.T. Yes. It is not that ministry is in any way to be despised, because it is given of God. I think that John's gospel gives us the idea of ministry now. It is of great importance for all who seek to serve, to study John's gospel from the levitical standpoint, and then study Mark from the same standpoint. Now John gives you the idea of ministry at the outset. John the baptist looks on Jesus as He walked, and

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he says, "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29). John stood -- he was impressed with the walk of Christ, and he expressed his impression, and it says two of his disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. That is to say, they came into the line of Elisha. They followed Jesus; that is the lead that Elisha gives in this book, he clings to Elijah. Now those two go right through in the following of Jesus, and, necessarily, have to come to Jordan. So that ministry, therefore, is of immense value, but it simply directs you to Christ. It is a suggestion of Christ, but in order to come into it, and get something yourself, you have to follow Jesus.

G.A.v.S. And you would say that the people of God are expected individually to pursue the same journey in the history of their souls, and to come to that point of Jordan, before they get in any way the appropriation of things in their own souls; then they would be able to unfold things in a more living way?

J.T. That is so. You may take up some line of thought, but you have gone through the thing, and it is effective in you; unless you do that (and it is well for young brothers to take note of this) sooner or later it will come to light that you are using borrowed tools, and it will be exposed.

E.H. Do you suggest that the borrowed tools are connected with Laodicea?

J.T. Very much. I think that all her riches, in which she boasts, are really borrowed.

W.J.Y. You would not limit the thought of borrowing to that of a brother who had borrowed a thought from another one. I suppose if he got the thought from the Scriptures, but did not get it into his heart, it would still be borrowed.

A.L.M. What did you mean when you were speaking of our using what we have received through ministry without taking it through Jordan?

J.T. One has to learn the way things come.

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God's way is that everything comes to us through Jordan. Everything comes out of death.

J.D.U. I suppose if the heart is really attached to the Lord, as Elisha's was to Elijah, every bit of ministry we get we would gladly take to Him and review it in His presence, and let it have its full weight with us.

J.T. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (2 Corinthians 10:4). They are tested by death. Everything that does not swim is borrowed, so to speak. The word here is 'iron', meaning it is something that sinks. So that the power of resurrection is apparent in its swimming.

Ques. The inherent power of life was in the stick cast into the waters?

J.T. Quite.

R.G.D. Does it bring in the abolition of death, and that life and immortality have been brought to light through the gospel?

J.T. I think it does. 2 Timothy enlarges upon life.

J.A.B. There was a very gracious help afforded to this one. There must have been real desire with him.

J.T. They have advanced. They are living before the prophet now, and the prophet goes with them. Notice, he does not suggest it; because God will allow you to take your own initiative. He knows what you mean -- you mean well, doubtless -- but there is something that has to be exposed, and therefore, He says nothing, but goes on to expose you, because that is a service. It is the best service that can be rendered to me that I should be exposed. If we are to be effective, we have got to understand life out of death.

R.G.D. Would you say a word about the stick cast into Jordan?

J.T. I think it is just a reference to the Lord Jesus. We are dealing with types, but they are wonderfully suggestive. We are dealing with the

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death of Christ now in its bearing on levitical work. It is not a question of salvation -- that is chapter 5 -- but a question of levitical service. If you have been saved by the power of the life of Christ, your levitical service must be in that same power, or not at all. You cannot stand up and preach, and say that it is all done, and propose something on that principle, and yet carry on in service under another principle. And yet that is being done. Men are relying on their own ability and the culture of this world for efficiency in the service of God. This chapter is to rebuke all that. It is to show us that the power for service must come out of death. It is on the principle of life out of death. That is the appreciation of the Son of God declared to be such by resurrection from among the dead.

A.H.C. Would you say that, typically, Elisha had come from a heavenly position, conscious of that position, and it is in the power of that that he is able to carry on his service?

J.T. It is the power of life out of death.

J.D.U. This exposure we naturally shrink from, but where the Spirit of God is operative with us, I suppose we are really glad to have anything that is not in keeping with God's thoughts exposed.

J.T. Quite. In some of us the need of it may be more apparent, but I doubt whether any of us is free from it. The Lord is concerned in a special way about those who serve. We see what pains He took with Peter, so that he might be an efficient servant.

R.G.D. What would you say is the teaching of the Spirit in the remaining part of the chapter?

J.T. What comes out is, that there is power to discern the workings of this world; that which is opposed to the truth. We are progressing here, you see. If you arrive at the power of God in the Son of God raised from the dead, there is spiritual discernment. So that the world is exposed to us. As Paul says, "We are not ignorant of his thoughts" (2 Corinthians 2:11) -- a

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remarkable thing that he could say he was not ignorant of the thoughts of Satan. What an immense advantage that was, and what an advantage it is in service (because we are constantly opposed by Satan) to have insight into his very thoughts!

J.D.U. Then comes the consciousness that we have One that is greater with us.

J.T. Yes, that is what comes out. There are two "alas's" in this chapter, the first in regard to the borrowed instrument, and the second in regard to the Syrian host, but they only suggest our unbelief, and now it comes out that "Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4). So that the young man has his eyes opened, and he sees the chariots of God all round about him, for "The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him" (Psalm 34:7), and therefore, our service is carried on in peace, in conscious victory and security.

W.J.Y. Does the first instance suggest what we discern in ourselves, and the latter one, what we learn as to what is outside ourselves? First, the spirit of the world, and then the power of the enemy?

J.T. Yes, and then you have the conditions for the great features of the dispensation to shine out. For that is a great thing with God, that the dispensation should not be misrepresented. He works with us so that we should be in accord with the working of the dispensation, so that instead of all these Syrians being smitten with the sword, they receive bread and water. This is the triumph of grace -- the triumph of good over evil. "So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel".

J.A.B. This smiting them with blindness was an act of mercy, was it not?

J.T. It was, indeed. One is conscious in oneself how easily one misrepresents the dispensation, whereas God is jealously guarding it that it might shine out as it did in the beginning. It is a day that God

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has made. There is very much that provokes us to misrepresent things if we are not on our guard.

Ques. Would you say the king of Israel is on the same line as Gehazi in chapter 5?

J.T. Just so, and I think these bands of the Syrians invading Israel may have some counterpart in all partisan movements. These partisan movements amongst the people of God are opposed to the truth. Partisanship is met and dissolved by the spirit of grace.

W.J.Y. In the beginning of chapter 5 grace shines out for one man, and now grace goes out to a large company.

J.T. It is an immense thing if we have grace enough to dissolve a band -- overpowering it with good. Here it is overpowering evil with good, so that there is a dissolution of the band. What changed men they were, as they went back to their master!

J.D.U. You do not meet these troubles by regulations and prohibitions, but by the manifestations of grace?

J.T. That is so.

J.A.B. God seems to meet the position when Gehazi fails. Elisha has a young man as a servant. Does it suggest the thought of continuity and education in these things, so that what is of God is maintained here in power?

J.T. Quite. You stress the thought of the young man. This section of the word, I think, has that young man in view.

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THE ASSEMBLY

1 Corinthians 11; Matthew 26:6 - 13; Ezekiel 43:1 - 6

J.T. As it is the first day of the week, it occurred to me that it was due to the Lord that we should be occupied with the assembly.

My thought is that we may see it, as governed by a law; in this chapter in Ezekiel (lower down), he speaks about the law of the house upon the top of the mountain. That is the idea of the assembly. The assembly comes out of heaven, and the law that governs it comes out of heaven. It is set up on the top of the mountain, and what comes out, I think, in the law of the house -- which may be taken to be 1 Corinthians -- is that the activities which should mark it are those of fully developed men, men -- not children. In Ezekiel, where we have more minute detail given of the house of God than in any other part of Scripture, the idea of a man runs throughout -- indeed, the book contemplates the Son of man. The term, Son of man, is perhaps found in Ezekiel more frequently than in all the other books of the Bible combined, and the thought links up with the house. "The man", he says, "stood by me". The assembly, therefore, is not to be marked by undeveloped activities -- it is the intelligence of the man, the affections of the man. Every stage of spiritual growth, of course, is recognised there -- but it is to be characterised by men, so that it says, "in your minds be grown men". And for that reason I suggested the earlier part of 1 Corinthians 11 in connection with the passage in Matthew, because it gives man his place as the representative of God. The anointing in Matthew is the fullest recognition of this. Matthew and Mark record for us the action of this woman, and the Lord directs that what she did was to be mentioned

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as a memorial of her wherever the gospel would be preached. He says nothing in these two gospels about the memorial of Himself. It is the woman who is to be remembered, because unless there is the memorial of the woman, I doubt if there will be the conditions for the memorial of Christ; so that He says nothing about remembering Himself in regard to His Supper in Matthew and Mark, but He does say that the woman is to be remembered, and I think it is because of the place she gives Him. If her memorial is rightly apprehended I think the conditions will exist for the memorial of Christ, which Luke mentions.

R.G.D. In the woman's anointing of Him, is there a giving place to the counsels of God, on the line of intelligence?

J.T. I think in Matthew it would recognise the government of God -- that Man to her represented government. She would not look elsewhere for regulation. In Mark, I suppose the anointing represents what is levitical.

J.A.B. Is the thought in your mind that in the three scriptures read there is progressive development in our apprehension of what there is in the assembly?

J.T. Well, I thought the passage in Matthew fits in with the early part of 1 Corinthians 11, because it shows how the woman took her place, and not only took her place in relation to the man, but recognised by anointing His head, that at least He was her ideal; she would recognise Him, she would have a sign of authority on her head henceforth.

A.H.C. Does she represent the assembly in that way?

J.T. I think she represents what should mark the assembly, that is, subjection to Christ. The assembly is subject to Christ.

W.J.Y. Is it that the conditions of the assembly

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must be according to God before we can have a memorial of Himself?

J.T. That is exactly what I thought, and so the anointing in Matthew fits in with 1 Corinthians. It would save believers from turning to any other authority than Christ for their regulation.

A.H.C. Is it the recognition of Christ as being the head of the assembly?

J.T. Yes. The woman in anointing the Lord, I think, avows her entire recognition of where authority is, and so the early part of chapter 11 prepares for the assembly. It gives man his place. The order is from God to Christ, and from Christ to man, and from man to woman.

J.D.U. So that the whole principle of subjection would come in there, not just in connection with what we would speak of as to the sisters.

J.T. I think the whole principle of subjection in the assembly is involved, but it begins with the women. There is to be a sign of it because Corinthians deals with what is orderly and comely, and the sign brings into evidence the place that man has. It is in the assembly that God's idea of man is to shine, the idea of the assembly really involves intelligence.

J.D.U. You were speaking of full development. I was thinking it is in that way that subjection comes in on our part.

J.T. The great principle of the divine idea in man is worked out family-wise. The exercises on the household side lead to material for the assembly, so that man merges into the assembly from his house; his place is recognised according to God.

R.G.D. It says in 1 Corinthians 10:15 "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say". Is that connected with order?

J.T. Yes. "I speak as to intelligent persons", is the strict interpretation, and bears out what we are

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saying, that God is aiming at intelligence in the assembly.

W.J.Y. Do you suggest that the conditions of our households have an application to the law of the house of God?

J.T. I do, and you cannot have divine order in the assembly unless it first exists in the households; hence the selection of elders is contingent on the condition of the households. I do not say that it is a question in 1 Corinthians 11 exclusively of husband and wife, because it is not. It is man and woman, because God would educate the saints into His own idea in the man and the woman, so that it should shine in the assembly. Hence it is not only married sisters, but all sisters, all women as in relation to men, whoever the men may be; because when we come to the assembly, it is no longer a question of husband and wife, but man and woman; hence it is not 'Let your wives be silent', but "Let your women be silent".

J.A.B. So that before you have that which is the expression of our appreciation of Christ, you must have that which manifests our subjection to Him as Head?

J.T. Yes, and the memorial of this woman ever present would involve that, so that wherever the gospel is preached, it is to be mentioned. The preaching of the gospel would gather out souls, and the assembly is formed historically by the preaching of the gospel; and as the gospel is preached, this that the woman did is mentioned, so that those who are gathered should be rightly regulated. It would save them from looking to any other authority than Christ, or taking any other pattern than that woman, and as she is recognised, there are conditions for the memorial of Christ; that is, His Supper.

J.A.B. Is that suggested when Paul gives it to them; he says, "I received from the Lord", and then

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he speaks of the Lord Jesus. There is a recognition of His authority and His place as Lord, and then there is that which touches our hearts in connection with the love of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Quite. "Lord Jesus", I think, is a term of affectionate respect, but it is a great thing to have a model, and I think the woman is a model for us. The memorial is to keep in view what she did; you will notice it speaks of "what this woman has done", so that it is what every woman, and indeed, in effect, what every Christian should do.

A.H.C. The woman, apparently, had great intelligence, because it was in regard to His burial that she did it. If we had the sense of the death of Christ, and all that it meant, it would mean that a sweet savour would go up from the hearts of His people.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Does the memorial represent the truth of headship?

J.T. I think that it leads to that. Anointing Him on the head, I think, means that He was qualified, from her point of view, as indeed He had been from God's, for the office. All government must come from Him.

J.A.B. You said that the assembly was produced by the preaching of the gospel. As we have responded to that testimony, are there certain exercises of soul before we reach the woman as a model?

J.T. No doubt, but we are soon confronted with the idea of government, that we are not so many units. We are to be regulated by a law -- and the "Law-Giver". "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be" (Genesis 49:10). We are confronted with the necessity of rule in the kingdom, and then in the assembly, and we are to look to Christ for that rule, for the directions; so that the apostle here praises them,

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because they kept his directions, and he adds further directions in regard to the woman; but when it comes to the assembly, the actual convening, he could not praise them, and I have no doubt it was largely on account of the state of the households; because if parties, or coteries, exist amongst the saints, it is, you may be sure, the outcome of certain family conditions, where subjection is not present.

W.J.Y. There was a time, I think, when we regarded our households and what we may call our private lives, as something quite distinct from the assembly; that is, as having very little relationship to it.

J.T. But the Lord has greatly helped us in the way the believer's household has come into evidence, and how it contributes to the assembly, so that you see here that they had kept his directions; but he would add more directions, and what he adds has reference to the order of God in regard to the man and the woman, and this is before he goes on to the assembly.

J.A.B. Would you say that what is characteristic of the day in which we live is insubjection and lawlessness in these relations that have been established by God?

J.T. I think it is very important to take account of that. It is a noticeable fact, historically, that the truth of the assembly made little or no progress in the East, in Asia, in places that observed, or practised polygamy. It develops where there are household conditions according to what was at the beginning, as the Lord says, "From the beginning it was not so". That is, in the assembly we come back to the primary thoughts of God. There is deliverance from all that has intervened, and this chapter contemplates the relation in which, in the creation, God set the man and the woman. Now that Christ has come in, He is there mediatorially. The idea of man's headship is

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known, and carried out because of Christ having come in as the Head of every man, so that every man learns the divine thought in headship from Christ, and hence it flows out in his relationships on earth.

I have no doubt that the conditions that he refers to, in which parties were in evidence -- eating before others, rich and poor distinguished, etc. -- were largely attributable to the deranged household conditions, so that the entry of the gospel into Europe is connected with the households. We do not get the assembly spoken of at Philippi (Acts 16); of course it was there, but what is emphasised is households.

R.G.D. And yet, when we are in the assembly, family relationships are not recognised, are they? They give place to the spiritual.

J.T. As we enter the threshold of the assembly, family relationships drop. But we are adjusted family-wise before we enter.

J.A.B. It is very important to have the right conditions existing. "Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat". That would take account of the exercises in connection with the conditions outside.

J.T. Quite.

H.C. Do you make a distinction between the authority of the Lord and the recognition of the Head?

J.T. Yes, I do. It does not say here that the Lord is Head of every man. The Head of every man is Christ. It is a question really of intelligence, more than of the kingdom. Headship is more that you get direction, and one can understand how this principle has come into evidence, in its perfection, in Christ. You see, now that Christ has come in, you have the idea set out perfectly, the idea of getting direction from the Head. But there can be no such thing as that, without subjection.

H.C. You must recognise Him as Lord before you can recognise Him as Head.

J.T. Just so.

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J.D.U. And, being perfect, there is nothing arbitrary or harsh about the position He takes up, is there? One feels that in connection with our own exercises as heads of families, in the households, how much we need to take our lead from our Head.

J.T. That only brings into evidence the place that Christ has now in this divine order in creation. In Eden, of course, it was that the head of every man was God, so to say; Christ was not there, but now Christ has come in, so that the divine idea is fully expressed, and hence every man has to learn that from Christ; and, therefore, order is complete. He maintains in his house what he has learned from Christ.

J.D.U. Many of us are feeling it a very great exercise on that line, in connection with growing families, how necessary it is to rightly exercise the control that should be evidenced in headship.

W.J.Y. I suppose your thought is that we cannot approach assembly privilege, and disregard these evident laws that God has appointed?

J.T. It would surely be a poor thing if the assembly came short of the order in creation. There should be an advance on the order of creation. We must have first settled the order of creation before we reach the assembly, in which the all-various wisdom of God is to be displayed. We must leave nothing behind us unsettled, hence the order of creation should be seen in all family relationships, and that is what God is looking for. He is looking for His order to take form in His people here on earth, so that we approach the assembly on that line, and the assembly takes form under the eye of Christ in comeliness. One has been struck by the references to hair in the Song of Songs. How the bridegroom speaks of the hair of the bride, because it has reference to what is distinctly feminine. It has reference to what is wrought out subjectively in the way of affection and order. The hair is said to

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be like a "flock of goats, on the slopes of mount Gilead" (Song of Songs 4:1), and again it speaks about the ringlets by which the king is held (Song of Songs 7:5), referring spiritually to the feminine attractiveness of the assembly, as it is formed according to Christ. So that the order of creation must first be respected, and then we approach the assembly.

W.J.Y. So that a feature of Christianity is that that which was orderly in creation has been recovered.

J.T. That is right, so that in Genesis 4 we have the dominance of the woman. The children were named by Eve. It is a chapter of disaster really, but when we come to Seth, we have recovery, because he calls the name of his son Enosh -- he respected the actual judgment of God on man, and then it says, "began men to call upon the name of the Lord". Light had broken in, and then we have God reverting to His primary thought. "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man ... male and female created he them ... and called their name Adam" (Genesis 5:1,2). There you have recovery, and then Adam begets a son, in his own likeness, after his own image, so that for the continuance of the testimony of God, there has to be the recognition of the departure and the recovery. You begin over again, and that shines out in our houses, so that the children continue. Seth was after Adam's own image and likeness.

H.W. Recovery is connected with the recognition of headship?

J.T. Quite.

J.A.B. The scripture you read in Ezekiel would show the results, the privileges, when God's order is maintained.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. There are conditions now with which God can identify Himself, and I think that chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14 of this

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epistle (1 Corinthians), correspond with Ezekiel. God comes in from the east gate, from the east.

A.H.C. That is the point where the light arises.

J.T. Quite.

J.A.B. Do we have the light of the east continually before us? If we take account of the conditions around us, we have to acknowledge ruin and breakdown, but we can take up our privileges in the light of that which is coming in.

J.T. Yes. The reference, I suppose, is to the sun rising, dispelling all darkness and doubt. God is in the light. Now if these conditions, of which we have spoken, exist, we have a memorial of Christ, which brings Him in. "This do in remembrance of me". If the Lord is thus remembered, conditions being suitable, you have a Man by you. Ezekiel says, "A man stood by me". I think that all that follows in the assembly is dependent on Christ. The Man stands by you.

G.H.McK. You mean that the Lord would be revealed to all as a Man at the present time?

J.T. Yes, that is how He comes in. The memorial is of Him in that way, so the part that you take in the assembly, in apprehending Him thus, is not childish. You do not act as a child. The apostle says, in chapter 13, that when he was a child he acted as a child, but when he became a man, he put away childish things. The "Man standing by" rebukes all childish things. They are unsuitable.

W.J.Y. Do you link the thought of the Supper with the light from the east?

J.T. Well, I think that you may. The Supper is not only what Christ is to us, it is what God is in the covenant. I think that the covenant establishes confidence in one's heart, which coincides with the thought of the rising sun. So that there is room for God. The Lord's supper opens up the way for "the

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Man" in the memorial, and for God. God is there. It says, "the earth shined with his glory".

G.H.McK. How do you connect the thought of confidence with the rising of the sun?

J.T. It is universal that the whole race of man, from the outset, was accustomed to look in the eastern direction for the rising of the sun. But it is right to connect this with the glory; the glory is the shining out of God in His love, and Ezekiel sees that coming in; the God of Israel comes in, and the earth shines as He comes, and the glory fills the house; but then alongside that, you have the Man standing by you, and I think that it is the sense of Christ as Man in the assembly that enables one to be there.

Ques. Do childish things set forth what is undeveloped?

J.T. I think so. You take these chapters in Ezekiel, from chapter 40 -- they are extremely complex. I doubt whether any of us has followed them fully, and that fact alone ought to warn us not to be too assumptive that we understand everything about the assembly, dividing it up into two compartments, when there may be more. You look at these chapters, and you see what a variety of things there is; the measurements of the cells, and the broad ways, the courts and the gates and the porches, all divinely measured. As you look at these things, you say, 'Well, I know very little of the assembly', and you are dependent, and you are glad to have a Man by you. You see the need of cultivating the senses, so that one should be, as it were, a man in the assembly.

J.A.B. It is very comforting to get the thought that there is One there to support you in these conditions.

J.T. Yes. He stands by Ezekiel right through with a measuring line, so that everything should be known.

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W.J.Y. Do you desire to run over chapters 11 to 14 (1 Corinthians)?

J.T. No. I am only suggesting that the thought of a man runs through them, especially in chapter 14. Chapter 13 refers to the child, and points out that when one becomes a man, one puts away childish things, and so he proceeds to what he calls the more excellent way, or the way of surpassing excellence, and the first great thing after this is prophecy. Can you bring in the mind of God? It is an immense thing to be able to suggest something of the mind of God, because that belongs to the assembly. The assembly is where God would reveal His mind.

J.S.B. How are the childish things put away?

J.T. I think you judge them and lay them aside. You see how unbefitting they are; the assembly is the place for the mind of God. Ezekiel says that a voice spoke to him out of the house, and a man stood by him. Now we would expect that in the assembly. If I expect God to speak to me in the assembly, I am prepared for it. I have got my bible, and I can refer to it if reference is made.

W.J.Y. Do you consider that the prophesying in chapter 14 is linked with the same meeting as we speak, as chapter 11?

J.T. I think so. There is only one convening of the assembly. The idea runs through. So that, provided we are prepared for the idea that it is God's assembly, we leave with God what may come about. There are things that we do, as it says, "This is not to eat the Lord's supper". It should have been that they assembled to eat the Lord's supper. They should begin with that, but, having done that, the way is open, for if Christ has come in, God has come in, and, according to Ezekiel, the glory shines. God may speak to us as He did to Ezekiel, and we want to know, because He speaks through someone (God does everything now mediately, and if anyone speaks,

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he speaks as the oracles of God), and I want to know this, and my bible is the test. I should have my bible.

W.J.Y. I think there has been a thought that our morning meeting, as we speak, corresponded with the ministry of Aaron and his sons in the holy place; that is, it is an occasion in which the consideration was wholly God-ward, and that God's speaking to us was reserved for other occasions.

J.T. But I think you will find in Exodus that God proposed to speak to the people from the mercy-seat. He said, "There will I speak with thee".

R.G.D. Do you suggest that the wideness of the things connected with the name of God may come before us when we meet together to remember the Lord?

J.T. You see we come together as in assembly, according to this chapter, and that is God's assembly; and if it is God's assembly, God must have full rights in it. We cannot prescribe, we must leave it with Him.

R.M.Y. Do you regard God speaking to us as being greater than worship?

J.T. I do. It must be. It must be a greater thing for God to speak than for you to speak.

C.B. Would you say that all speaking to the saints in the assembly should be the giving forth of the mind of God?

J.T. I think if anyone speak, he should speak representatively; of course, there is what we may call conversational ministry, such as readings, but the general principle of ministry is authoritative. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God". It is not that he is immune from judgment, because the others are to judge, as it says, "let the others judge"; but from his point of view, he is speaking as the oracles of God, and his thought is to bring in the mind of God, and to edify the assembly.

J.A.B. Would it have a specific character at such a time?

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J.T. I think where there is worship that you should be very careful. He says, "This is ... the place of the soles of my feet". That is to say, God Himself is there, in nearness, as we see in Genesis 35, where He speaks to Jacob. If one speaks in those circumstances, God is very near to him. He is very near to all, so that in these circumstances it is not merely a question of teaching, or exhortation, but the word, fresh for the moment.

J.A.B. It would not be the occasion for what we might have in our reading meeting, or even in an "open" meeting?

J.T. No. Ezekiel says here he heard one speaking to him out of the house. He was in the house. I think that is the kind of speaking. "I heard one speaking unto me out of the house".

G.H.McK. Would such ministry take account of the needs of the saints?

J.T. God would take account of their needs, and that is what I mean in seeking to emphasise that it is God's assembly, and He takes account of what exists. If saints are worldly, you may depend the word will have something to say to them.

We cannot ignore the state of the saints. There is no use in having a theoretic condition. The saints are the house, you know; it is a question of the state of the saints. If there are worldly, or low, conditions, then God has to speak accordingly. The question is whether God is there, whether He has actually come in at all -- if there is a low state.

In such conditions, God would speak in another way to you; there would be more distance in it. Here you see, "I heard one speaking unto me out of the house". That is very near, for he was right in the house.

W.J.Y. Do you look on an open meeting as a convening of the assembly?

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J.T. Yes. I think 1 Corinthians contemplates that.

W.J.Y. What about a reading meeting?

J.T. Well, a reading meeting is conversational. I would not be sure but that a meeting such as the present makes room for the Lord in a peculiar way. I do not think that I should suggest anything, were it not that I felt it represented the mind of the Lord; and, therefore, in these circumstances, there is a certain reference to authority. In an open meeting, if a brother stands up, it is not conversational; it is as the oracles of God, and thus he is supposed to represent the Lord; and, therefore, it makes it a very serious matter to say anything.

Ques. What of the Spirit in the inner court?

J.T. That indicates what is possible in the Spirit. In our assemblies, if we are equal to it, the Holy Spirit takes us into the most sacred spot. As the hymn says, "The Spirit's power has ope'd the heavenly door". It is a question of the Spirit.

J.D.U. Would it be out of place to ask you to say a word about the cup, and the exercises that there have been recently in regard to one cup?

J.T. There is only one cup in the institution. "In like manner also the cup", as it says. In chapter 12 it says, "We ... have all been given to drink of one Spirit", which I think is an allusion to the cup; so that it should convey the idea of unity.

J.D.U. What do you think, then, of subdividing it at the Supper?

J.T. It is an acknowledgment of weakness, I think. It seems to me as if the Lord might suggest that the cup should regulate the size of the company. In Mark it says that, "all drank out of it"; and the containing vessel, of course, maintains that, because we all do really drink out of the same vessel, only for convenience we use two or more. The Lord had used

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a drinking vessel. I think the idea of unity is maintained in one vessel, but if the company were regulated by the size of the cup, or drinking vessel, we should have more assemblies -- more meetings -- and I believe that is what the Lord is aiming at -- the increase of meetings.

J.D.U. In regard to that, the exercise, of course, is as to whether there is the power for such meetings.

J.T. That is the next thing. I believe there is something in that. The idea is that we all drink out of the same vessel, which makes it very familiar; the Lord breathed into the disciples, which is a very familiar action; and drinking out of the one cup involves familiar relationships, and intimacy; and so, if the size of the cup, as we said, was allowed to regulate the size of the meeting, the meetings would increase, and the income of the Lord would increase.

A.J.L. Do you mean more would take part?

J.T. Yes. There would be more exercise, more development of men.

J.D.U. You would not look for fully developed men at first -- elders, I mean?

J.T. We do not need elders until we have the assembly. Elders are not the first thought, they are the second thought. The elders were ordained after the assembly was formed; the question is whether there is material for an assembly. I use the word 'assembly' merely for convenience, but the great thing to begin with is whether for an assembly there are enough saints who love the Lord, and then the question of elders arises. I think it is quite obvious that you do not need a king unless you have a nation to rule, and you do not need elders unless you have an assembly. So the first thing is to get the saints for an assembly. It is wonderful how God provides when we move on right lines; how development takes place.

J.A.B. So, although we are surrounded by broken

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conditions, if the order of God is recognised, as under the headship of Christ, we are brought to the fulness of God's thought and the shining of His glory.

J.T. It is a very wonderful possibility in days such as ours, that we may come back to the primary thought of God in the assembly. And what strikes one particularly is the importance of development of manhood; that we should be no longer babes, but men; and, in taking part in the assembly, you do so as intelligent persons, not as children.

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FAITH

Matthew 15:21 - 28; Matthew 8:5 - 13; 2 Kings 13:14 - 21

It occurred to me that a word about faith would serve us at this time, having in view that we are living in the dispensation of faith -- as it is said, "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4). The tendency with us, to speak simply, is to drift from a position taken up by faith into one marked by sight, and thus we may retain only the outward forms accompanying faith and the dispensation of faith, and we come short of their power, for we can only have to say to God by faith. It is said, "he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and that "without faith it is impossible to please him" (Hebrew 11:6). That is a very sweeping, solemn word. And so, in speaking of faith, what one suggests is not that we have not faith, for I have no such thought. I seek to speak to you as to those who have faith. Indeed, no ministry can be of any value, or have any effect, save as addressed to faith -- save there be faith in the hearers. But then this word of all words admits of degrees of comparison, and what I have particularly in view is to call attention, as I proceed, to that which marks all of us, and that is, failure to go the whole way. The disposition to proceed to half measures is perhaps realised in every one of us, and as it is according to our faith so be it to us, the measure of our faith is the measure of our blessing subjectively -- not objectively; for what God has got for us is not measured by our faith, but by His own love. We can rest in that, and that ultimately He will accomplish in us His purpose is also assured. But things are enjoyed now on the principle

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of faith, and, as I said, it is according to our faith so be it to us.

And so I ventured to read these two passages in Matthew, because they speak of "great" faith -- a degree of comparison which doubtless each one here would refrain from appropriating to one's self. We are not living in the time of "great" faith, but it is well to have a standard, because these things are recorded for us so that we might have them in view, that we might have these two personages in our minds as spoken of in this way by the Lord.

The first, the Syro-Phoenician woman, was outside the range of religious privilege in that day, and this very fact brought out, through the Lord's gracious dealings with her, the benefit of the work of God in her soul, showing that the mere enjoyment of outward religious privilege in itself may not conduce to the work of God. For, as the Lord says of the centurion, "Not even in Israel have I found so great faith".

Now in regard to the Syro-Phoenician woman -- a personage well known to most of us, doubtless, as oft presented in the gospel -- all I wanted to say is that her faith enabled her to take account of the circumstances in which the government of God had placed her. The government of God has to say to us. It has to say to every person in the world, and to every nation, but it has to say, particularly, to the people of God, and what we may remark is that we are suffering among other things under the government of God in three distinct connections. Notwithstanding that we have faith, and have come into the benefits of faith, we are outwardly suffering, with all mankind, in three distinct connections. We are suffering, with all mankind, on account of Adam's sin. These may be very simple remarks, but they are practical, and it is well to have them in view, in order that the position may be clear. We are suffering

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under the government of God on account of Adam's guilt. All the outward circumstances and consequences of that guilt have come down to us, and it is our wisdom not to look for miracles. Faith accepts these circumstances, whatever they be. Faith accepts our conflicts, and goes through them with God.

And, then, we are suffering on account of the sin of the race in the rebellion against God at Shinar. We are suffering on account of the national situation in the world. We know that God, having sent his angels out to minister on account of the heirs of salvation, is modifying these national conditions; but, nevertheless, they exist, and the national conditions entail suffering. They entail inconvenience and suffering, irritation of all kinds, to men. We pray for the powers that be, because they are mercies, but they cannot set aside these conditions which have come down to us, and we as believers accept them. We do not ally ourselves with any nation; as we understand our calling we are outside of them; but, nevertheless, we are subject to the powers that be, and we are thankful for those powers. But the national conditions into which mankind has been plunged involve suffering.

And then there is that which comes home to us more keenly than all -- the failure of the assembly. After we understand it aright, we understand it entails untold spiritual suffering, as well as other sufferings. The addresses to the assemblies show what an overcomer has to contend with. But an overcomer accepts the conditions humbly, and acknowledges his own share in them. He accepts them from God, and the sufferings entailed. His faith enables him to regard them in the light of the government of God, and he suffers accordingly.

Now this woman in Matthew 15 is a model for us in that respect. That is, she is set down here as one who has great faith, and it is great faith shown in her

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being enabled, through the Lord's gracious dealings with her, to accept her position. She accepted the situation created by the government of God, and if we are to be with God, if we are to come in for the latter day gain of the Spirit's administration, we shall have to learn how to accept intelligently our position in the governmental conditions which exist consequent upon the failure of the assembly. It means much. It means ridicule. It means that one has to abandon that which is held in honour in this world religiously. It means self-abnegation. It means the abandonment of pretension. It means the non-claiming of ecclesiastical position. It means acknowledging that all that is forfeited, and that we are cast entirely on the mercy of God at the present time, and that as we humble ourselves before Him, He makes a way for us, and He recognises the greatness of our faith, for it is great to be able to adjust ourselves in regard to the Lord according to the light in which He is presented at the present time.

And then in the case of the centurion, that is a faith which enables us to say that, notwithstanding these conditions, the Lord Jesus is in heaven, and He is as "a man under authority". That is, He has received from the Father the administration of everything. The centurion says, "I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof". I think that could be rightly said of every one of us religiously. As we take conditions into account, as we take our own actual conditions and circumstances religiously into account, it seems to me that this word fits. We are not "worthy". But then, in acknowledging our own unworthiness -- and how meet it is that we should -- we say that He has power in heaven and upon earth, and that He does not need to come. He proposes to come, but He does not need to come. All He has to do is to say the word.

Now there is immense light in that for our souls,

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dear brethren. As one reviews the field in which the Lord is operating, and as one considers the awful history of that to which His Name is attached, how comforting that He has only to say the word. One often thinks of Asia, and its millions, comprising half the population of the world. One is comforted in the thought that the Lord only has to say a word of blessing for them, and He will, for their day is coming. And as one thinks of the Christianised world, and what has come about in it, conditions wholly unfit for the Lord, unfit notwithstanding that His name is called upon them, how comforting to know that He can say the word. As we think of our brethren who are in these associations which are wholly out of keeping with the Lord's name -- names, indeed taken other than His, unfaithfulness thus acknowledged -- how comforting that He can say the word. The results are according to our faith. If we are concerned about our brethren the Lord can say the word. He is under authority. That is to say, He is a Mediator in the exercise of divine authority, and He can say the word. How great, therefore, is the range opened up to us! If we are concerned about our brethren, we can intercede with Him. He says to the centurion, "Go, and as thou hast believed, be it to thee". "And his servant was healed". It is according to your faith. It is a faith position, and faith induces prayer. These two things go together. We see universal authority in the Lord, and that He need not come. He can simply speak, and effect deliverance by speaking. And so the centurion s servant is healed, as the centurion believed. "As thou hast believed". He was healed from that hour. Would that the Lord would lay it upon us to think of the many there are throughout Christendom! The Lord knows those that are His, and, although the conditions are such that He cannot come, He can speak the word, and healing comes about, deliverance

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comes about. And so the Lord says here, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel". He signalises these two events, and I mention them as standards for us. He signalises them as "great". The faith was "great". In the first instance he speaks of it feelingly. He says, "O woman, great is thy faith".

I wanted to enlarge on these two or three thoughts in 2 Kings 13, because I find it is the Lord's way to use the Old Testament for the elucidation in detail of what is stated in the New Testament. The Old is Scripture as much as the New. It has the same authority. It was written in view of the New; the New now being in our hands comes first, so that the believer brings out of his treasures things new and old. I hope you see in this passage that the whole thing shines by its very age. Its very age enhances its beauty, for it is but a picture of what I am saying, only in a collective sense. In this passage you see how great results are missed because of our resorting to half measures instead of whole measures. Instead of great faith you have little faith. Instead of great consequences you have little consequences -- consequences of great value, surely, but not such as are available, and we want all that is available.

Now the king of Israel comes down to Elisha, and what you observe is that, although his reign, as the context shows, was other than according to God's mind, yet grace was available. This picture is to impress us with the reign of grace, and how it overrules and overrides even our crookedness and unfaithfulness, and asserts itself, because God ever holds to the principle of the dispensation. The Christ is still on the Father's throne, and grace still rules, and God maintains throughout the principle of the dispensation.

And so the king of Israel weeps upon the prophet's face. There was some respect for Elisha. And then he says, "My father! my father! the chariot of Israel

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and the horsemen thereof". How poorly this fine expression sits on the lips of this unbelieving king, but nevertheless, it was a fine expression. It was an expression first used by Elisha. It was an expression which entered into the dispensation, and characterised it. And God loves to have us go back to the beginning. We are now in a time of the most abject weakness. Elisha is sick of the sickness whereof he died. What a dark day! What a prospect! But he had not died. I have no doubt his sickness may be taken as a suggestion of the weakness that marks our own time. Let us accept it. We are living in a day of extremely small things -- outward weakness -- but Elisha still lives, and the reminder of his early ejaculation as he saw Elijah ascend brings out the latent strength that is there, and that is what I want to impress upon us, that there is latent strength. The Holy Spirit is still here. That does not mean that we can count on Pentecostal days, because the Holy Spirit is necessarily limited on account of the state of the vessel. You understand that I am not speaking of the Person of the Spirit of God, for He is God Himself; but the state of the vessel is so extremely paralysed and weak that the operations of the Spirit are necessarily limited; but, nevertheless, the blessed Spirit of God remains, and everything now hinges on our faith.

And so as King Joash says, "My father! my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof", Elisha says, "Take bow and arrows". It is through you that the power of these horsemen and the chariot is to be expressed. I take it to myself. If I speak of the Spirit, if I speak of Pentecost, and of the power of God that shone there, I take it to myself. It is for each of us to say to himself, "This power is to be exercised through me". It is thus we come into the power of God. And so the prophet says, "Take bow and arrows", these being the symbols in

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that day of the chariots of Israel -- of the power of the chariots of Israel and the horsemen. He says, "Open the window", and "shoot". "Open the window eastward". What light enters into the soul as one contemplates what the east denotes! How one can look away from the dark history of the public assembly, and think of the coming of the Lord! What hope fills the breast as one thinks of the past coming of the Lord. As John says, "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding" (1 John 5:20). But then He is coming. As the sun rises in the east, with all its benign power, dispelling the mists of darkness in this world, so Jesus shall arise, and faith knows it. And so as one looks toward the east, opens a window and shoots, one's arm is empowered by the sense of the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. For how can one pull the bow and let the arrow fly, except in that power? It stimulates us as we think of it. The king shot.

I want now to come to what is very searching, because whilst he shot that one arrow towards the east, the prophet's hands steadied him. It was not then a question of the king's power, because he had not any. It was a question of the power of Elisha, weak though he was in the sickness whereof he died. But there was power there. The apostle Paul realised that power as no one else -- "since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3) -- and moreover he preached the gospel by that power, by the power of Christ speaking in Him. From Jerusalem and round about Illyricum he preached it fully. He realised it more than anyone. Now we have come to a day of weakness. We cannot look for Pauline strength. What we can hope for now in humility is the hands of Elisha in his sickness. I hope that you will be able, spiritually, to understand that it refers not to the weakness of Christ, but to the weakness of the vessel. It refers to the limited conditions that

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mark the people of God. But, nevertheless, the power is there. That one shot towards the east was by the power of Elisha. As one might say, the coming of the dawn, and the sense for the moment of the support of Christ, notwithstanding the weakness of the vessel, enabled him to shoot, and he shot. If anyone here is aspiring to serve the Lord, this is a most valuable lesson. You begin with the power of Pentecost and accept the weakness of the present time, and you see that you are dependent on the support of the Lord.

But now he says, "Smite upon the ground". We now come, as I said, to what is searching. This smiting of the ground is another matter. From the use of the word 'ground' in Scripture, there cannot be a doubt but that it refers to one's own self. One has to learn to disallow the flesh, and that the flesh profits nothing. It was as though Elisha said, 'The next shooting is to be in your own strength'. You have to learn to shoot in your own strength, and how can I shoot, that is, exercise the power of God, unless I disallow the flesh? For God will not use the flesh; however cultured, however acceptable it may appear to men, God will not use it. And so the king smites thrice -- half measures. The thing is to go all the way, and disregard the flesh in toto. Elisha began thus. Elijah went up, and the mantle of Elijah fell from him and Elisha took it. He had rent his own garments in two pieces, and he crossed the Jordan by the power of Elijah's mantle. He disallowed the flesh from the very outset, and hence the wonderful ministry of Elisha, the wonderful grace and miracles that flowed in his strength. And so the king smites but thrice, and the prophet was wroth with him. You say, 'Well, he did well', but could he not have done better? There is a good meeting in this district. Could it not be better? Could it not be more spiritual? Can there not be more results from testimony? You say, 'Anyway, he smote thrice instead of twice, or

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once', but why not "five or six times", and then a complete victory -- not half measures? If we go the whole length we come to first conditions, in the principle of them. We come back to the Spirit, and in coming back to the Spirit, in the total disregard and setting aside of the flesh, we come into the assembly in all its blessedness -- not in the outward power that marked the beginning, but as it was said to Philadelphia, "Thou hast a little strength" (Revelation 3:8). The Lord does not say, 'I have a little strength'. He has all power. It was what Philadelphia had. How did she get it? By self-judgment, by disallowing the flesh in toto. And so we come into the good of the Spirit, so that there is the thing which the assembly had at the outset, not in quantity surely, but in quality. And so the prophet was wroth. He says, "Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it". This is what God would lay upon us. Not to settle down to half measures, but to go on to the full limit of what is available. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live", (Romans 8:13). We come into the gain of the Spirit in the disallowance, by the Spirit, of the flesh.

I just go on to the burial, because you see the shooting five or six times means we have such power as to overcome the enemy. There would be complete victory. But there was more needed.

The king failed, and now what comes out is that Elisha died, and he was buried. You will observe that it does not tell us where he was buried. It is not here a question of distinction in burial, as in the case of the kings of Israel and Judah. Usually we are told where they were buried. But in the case of Elisha it is not where he was buried, but the fact that he was buried. Now, if there is failure on the side of our responsibility, God comes in. That is, we are brought face to face with the fact that Christ

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died, and was buried. It is a question of testimony here. God is now asserting that if we are on the line of half measures, He is not. He began with the death and burial of Christ. The gospel preached to the Corinthians was that "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried" (1 Corinthians 15:3). So that God is now asserting His way. It is a question of testimony, and as we come to see it, we begin to look to God, because on this line God must act. It is not a question of shooting with bow and arrows, but rather a question of burying. I see now that God has His way, and that He must have His way, and that His principle is not only death, but burial. The man has to go completely, so that what we find is that Elisha died, and was buried. That is God's testimony -- death and burial. Can we think for a moment that present conditions in Christendom conform in the least degree with the mind of God? Some of us may be in the mind of God, but take the public thing as it is. In what way does it conform with the mind of God? In no way. God does not give up His line. He began with death and burial, and He continues on that line. I am on that line when I get to burial. It does not say where Elisha was buried, it is just stated as a testimony that he was buried. Let us see what the secret of that is.

"They were burying a man", it says. I have no doubt that that is baptism. "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (Romans 6:3). Many assume that as baptised we can live here in this world, but we are baptised "unto his death", and so "we are buried with him by baptism into death": seeing that burying is involved in death. It is a part of it. These men were in line with God. They were burying a man. I wonder how much we are occupied with this? Instead of dressing ourselves up, and seeking to

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commend ourselves to one another and to men, and to put on a good front, the occupation now is burying. It is a burying time. The first burial in Scripture is that of Sarah, and it is in the light of resurrection. Isaac is raised, and Christ is raised figuratively, in Genesis 22, and Sarah is buried in Genesis 23. The first burial is in the light of resurrection, and it is the burial of a believer. The believer buries in the light of resurrection. He does not bury dolefully, but in the light of resurrection, and this particularly applies to our baptism. Baptism is burial, and one raises the question as to how many of us are occupied in this service of burying. "They were burying a man". It is a time of putting ourselves under the water, and not only that, but remaining in accord with that by walking in newness of life. But we have to be buried. They were burying a man, but on account of the Moabites they could not do it. They did not complete their work. I have no doubt but that this refers to the divisions of Christendom. There had been Syrian bands which had been overpowered by Elisha. The Syrian band seeks to invade the land of Canaan. Here is a Moabitish band, and on account of the invasion of the land by this band, they could not bury the man. The work was unfinished.

The divisions of Christendom have really interfered with the burying process. Instead of the burial, you have huge organisations with the name of the Lord Jesus attached to them, and cathedrals, and all the pomp of Babylonish powers and wealth displayed in them -- the very opposite to burial. And so the work was interfered with. It is only as we emerge from these things that we are enabled to begin the work of burying, and I hope the Lord will help us to keep on burying, because it is in keeping, among other things, with the dispensation. Elisha died, and was buried. That is the divine testimony. Christ died and was buried, and if He died vicariously, which He did --

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He would not have died otherwise -- we have all to come to that position. Our baptism involves that we are buried, "buried with him by baptism into death". And so the Lord would lay it upon us to bury, and to finish the work.

But what you see here is that, notwithstanding the interference of this Moabitish band that came into the land, the man "went down" (see New Translation). It does not say he was let down. He went down. I apprehend it is what he did himself. Certainly if it applies to baptism, which it surely does, it is for every one of us to see today that whether the band interferes or otherwise, we go down. They cast him into the grave of Elisha. He went down, and touched the bones of the prophet. You see we come down into accord with the mind of God. It says he revived, and stood up on his feet. Now we have come into direct accord with the mind of God, because He will not give up His mind. His principle is death, burial, resurrection. That is His principle, and I believe He is working it out at the present time, and hence the importance of burying, because in burying you place yourself in the hands of God.

I have no doubt that Israel in the future will come up in this way, as having touched Christ in death, and stand upon their feet, as Ezekiel says, "an exceeding great army" (Ezekiel 37:10).

This great principle of life is worthy of our deepest consideration. It is life out of death. I place myself where God can touch me, and he touches me in relation to the death of His Son. So that as the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived, and stood on his feet. This is what God wants. The man is a Colossian saint. He is raised -- he knows that he is raised -- on the principle of faith. We are buried with Him by baptism, we are raised by faith. In the power of God we walk in Christ (Colossians 2:6). We are raised by faith in the power of God, who "raised

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him from among the dead", so that the Colossian Christian is a witness of the divine thought. He is standing on his feet, and that is the divine answer to all that there is at the present time. One risen man is a testimony for God. God is leading us to that, and as I said, it is a question of faith. It is a question of placing ourselves, as it were, in relation to the death of Christ unreservedly; burying, and then God comes in. We take the ground of being risen on the principle of faith of the working of God, who "raised him from among the dead", and then we are quickened with Him, which is a present thing. It is not a question of faith, but it is a present thing, by the Spirit.

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LIFE

John 3:1 - 17; John 4:7 - 14; Hosea 12:3 - 6,12,13

J.T. It occurred to me that a consideration of life in its initial features in these chapters would be profitable, and the passage in Hosea serves to illustrate how life develops in the believer. Jacob may be regarded as a type of the Lord Jesus in certain respects, but in others he is a type of the believer, and I think he serves as a type of a believer from the time that a believer is born again, because we see him acting at his birth in the way of supplanting the man born after the flesh. His action in supplanting Esau at that early stage in his history I think corresponds with the initial movements and instincts of one born again -- merely born again. Then later he wrestles with God, and has power, as it is said, over the angel. He wrestled with God. In his strength he wrestled with God. It does not say that in his strength he took hold of his brother by the heel, but when he wrestled with God he had strength. The instinctive sensibilities of one born again, are to displace what is born after the flesh.

W.J.Y. That is what comes out in John 3.

J.T. I think it corresponds with John 3. There is a clear distinction or line of demarcation made between that which is born of the flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit. They are not to be mixed. What is born of the Spirit is necessarily stronger. At the outset it may be a very little, but it is there.

Rem. Would you say one born of the Spirit had life?

J.T. No, I should not say he had life in a scriptural sense. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"; it does not say it is life. It is of that character. There is the foundation laid in the soul of what John

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intends to develop. He intends to develop in us what corresponds with God.

Rem. There is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being sealed with the Spirit?

J.T. A very great difference. The latter is after we believe the gospel. Jacob did not get the Spirit typically until he wrestled with God. Then he had his name changed.

Rem. Further on, in John 3, John the baptist says, "He must increase, but I must decrease". Would you say he had learnt something more of the necessity for the flesh to be displaced?

J.T. Yes. It is a great thing to see that John's point of view here is taken up in relation to God. John has what is for God before him. He presents the Son of God, and the Son of God is concerned about what is for God, so that the foundation laid in our souls has God in view. Not simply our blessing. It should be for God. God is a Spirit, and hence the initial work is spirit. That is the name Scripture gives it. Being spirit, it has instincts, and these instincts work out in the displacement of the flesh.

W.J.Y. So that there is nothing for Him until He moves.

J.T. That is right. It is the sovereign act of God. He is acting with Himself in view.

H.W. New birth is God's sovereign work, but the further development of things in the soul is dependent on the exercises of the believer.

J.T. That is why I thought Jacob would help us, especially the young people. The Old Testament is of such value because it affords illustrations of what we get in the New, so that we have in Jacob the exercise at this very early age. He is already concerned about the displacement of Esau. Jacob's name signified a supplanter. That is what being born of the Spirit will result in.

H.W. Every believer ought to be a supplanter?

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J.T. That is the way it begins. It becomes more and more definite and pronounced when there is the displacement of what is born after the flesh, so that any person can tell in himself from this point of view whether he be born again or not. If he is born again, he will have something corresponding with Jacob, because it is presented here as the evidence of spiritual energy.

W.J.Y. You mean he would be conscious of something within himself that moved Godwards?

J.T. That is quite so. It may be only in a very little way, as that you have an interest in the company of the Lord's people, or in reading the Scriptures, or abstaining from earthly things. It may be very little, but a very little will show.

H.W. You do not think of that exactly as life?

J.T. No, because it is very mixed, and very spasmodic, until you get the Spirit. The Spirit coming into a believer sets everything in order, and, as the fourth chapter of John says, it is a well, it is a constant spring, and it springs up. That is the idea of what prevails. The power of the spring is well known. It may take time, but it works its way, so that there is something definite and pure for God. It springs up into everlasting life.

W.W. There is a distinction between being born again, and being born of the Spirit?

J.T. Being born again is that the first birth does not count. It is not of any value. The explanation that the Lord gives of the second makes it more definite. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Then one is born of water, which is a suggestion of purification. Being born of God is a fuller thing. It involves having the Spirit.

H.W. What is the thought lying behind new birth? Is it that you begin afresh, that God has completely set aside the old, and has taken up a new line?

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J.T. Yes! God acts sovereignly! The flesh has proved itself untrustworthy, as the previous chapter states. "Many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did but Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus" (chapters 2:23 - 25, 3:1). He is distinct from among all others. The fact that he comes to the Lord shows that God is working in him. God has to work sovereignly now. It reminds me of the chaotic conditions which existed in the first chapter of Genesis. The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the deep. That is, He was waiting to operate. The Spirit is operating now.

W.J.Y. I have sometimes thought that the book of Job illustrates the truth of the third chapter of John. He had to learn that in man naturally, and in all that was said of himself, there was nothing for God. He had to reach that in his soul, and then there is a new beginning for him.

J.T. Just so. God loves to see you develop in a spiritual way, and see that there are great things with Him. The gospel brings to light the great things there are with God. These great things are not going begging -- they are offered to all, but God maintains them in their dignity according to their worth. Hence they are available to those who value them. The actual reception of things for God is by those who value them.

Rem. Is new birth a need created in the soul which can only be met by God?

J.T. Yes, so that in Genesis 1 the first thing God says is, "Let there be light". The soul needs light, and the light brings out what is made available in Christ.

Rem. Unless you are born anew you cannot see the kingdom of God.

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J.T. It gives you power to see what God is presenting in the gospel. The Spirit in this operation gives a certain moral power in the soul. Water is cleansing -- moral cleansing. The two things go together -- moral power and moral cleansing. These do not in themselves involve the possession of the Spirit, but in virtue of them you begin to see what great things there are. The gospel discloses what great things God has got for man. Hence you go in for them. That is what Jacob symbolises. In his strength he wrestled with God. I take that to be moral strength. He had gone through much in his soul. He had been to Syria, and had had a great deal of adverse experience, or experience with adverse things, but through all that, he acquired moral power.

H.W. Do you suggest that, in connection with the soul entering into enjoyment of eternal life?

J.T. I think so, but first it is the Spirit. The fourth chapter comes in as the counterpart of the third chapter. The third is from the divine side, and the fourth is the gift. It is still from the divine side, but it is something which is to be in you.

C.S.S. You would say there is a difference between desiring and wrestling?

J.T. Yes, I would. Many have the desire for things, but they do not go in definitely for them. God loves you to go in for things definitely.

C.S.S. The slothful man desireth and hath not.

J.T. Just so.

Rem. Would you say the Syro-Phoenician woman was wrestling?

J.T. Yes, in a way. She was wrestling for her daughter. Jacob is wrestling definitely for something for himself. He says, "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me" (Genesis 32:26), and I doubt whether any of us progress until we arrive at that stage, where we definitely turn to God for blessing. We have to distinguish between that which is inherited

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and that which we get. As born again we are born into inheritance. Inherited things will not suffice. There is a definite blessing, and we must go in for it. Jacob secured the inheritance for a mess of meal, but after that there was the blessing that he wanted from his father Isaac. Many are content with the inheritance. I mean what we have inherited through our predecessors, but in addition to that, there is the blessing that Jacob got through his subtlety. He got it definitely, and took it away from Esau. Jacob valued the blessing.

Ques. Would that illustrate eternal life?

J.T. Yes. Eternal life is definitely the blessing of God. One has to get it. Jacob shows you how you get it. He wrestled with God. I am referring now to Genesis 32. The blessing is spoken of in Genesis 32.

W.C. Would you say a man who is born again is responsible to answer to the light?

J.T. Quite. He is prepared now to listen to the gospel, and then he wants to enter into the kingdom. There is more than the kingdom. There is a definite blessing that one gets by turning to God himself.

H.W. In John 4 the woman was told to ask. "Ask of me".

J.T. That is the line. The Lord unfolds that there is the gift.

W.M. "Lay hold of eternal life" (1 Timothy 6:12). Would that apply to what you are saying?

J.T. That is a further thought, but it is all on the same line of energy.

C.S.S. I think it was seen in the case of Timothy. Timothy was a young man.

J.T. Yes.

W.J.Y. I notice in the third chapter of John, that the thought of eternal life, as linked with the journeyings of the children of Israel, was not connected with other than the brazen serpent. That would indicate

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they had travelled a good way before they really entered into that.

J.T. That is helpful. It is in the mind of God for us at the outset, but it is brought in in the types when you are prepared for it.

W.J.Y. I suppose at that stage the springing well would indicate that they came under the influence of the Spirit leading them.

J.T. That is very helpful. "Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it" (Numbers 21:17). The great form of weakness among the people of God is on this line. We are not energetic enough. Seeing the wonderful things God has for us, we are not energetic enough in going in for them. Some do, thank God, and through their energy the saints get things, but getting things from others is not getting them yourself, so that Jacob illustrates the believer as going in definitely from the very outset for what is available. First he supplants the man born of the flesh, and then he gets the inheritance. He goes in for that, and then he gets his blessing, so that the man born after the flesh is shut out automatically by the energy of soul of the believer.

C.S.S. Have we not had a false impression in relation to Jacob as a supplanter, taking it up in a human way, and not seeing the divine import?

J.T. I do not think he took it up in a human way when he was born. It may be said, as to the way he took away the blessing from Esau, that it was discreditable to Jacob, although he valued what he got; but, at the outset, when he took his brother by the heel, you cannot say it was the action of mature will. It was instinct. It represents more for us than for him. It was miraculous that a babe of that age should do that. Even before he was born there was energy. It refers to one that is born again, and he has these instincts and these energies. He perhaps could not tell you why, for a babe cannot tell you why, but a babe has instincts and acts on those

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instincts, and we gather from what he does that he is born of God.

W.C. When Jacob's thigh was put out, what do we learn from that?

J.T. He was crippled after the flesh. Having the Holy Spirit you are not to allow for the flesh.

W.J.Y. The instinct Jacob had corresponded with the thought of God. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Romans 9:13).

J.T. That brings out what was in his mind. From the very outset, what is born of the Spirit corresponds with God. It may be very mixed, but still it is there; so that, if a young person finds himself happily with the people of God, that is not the flesh. It is something else.

L.B.B. I suppose one born of the Spirit values that which is of God?

J.T. These instincts are developed. When you come to wrestling with God, it says, "In his strength he wrestled with God". There you have moral power in his soul, meaning that there has been exercise going on. There has been progress in a moral way, not as possessing the Spirit, but in judging one's self and judging the world. You turn to God definitely now. You want power; you have not got enough.

H.W. Is the Spirit given in answer to asking?

J.T. According to chapter 4 it is. Of course it is the gift of God. In the case of Cornelius, the Holy Spirit was given while Peter preached. God knew what He was doing, and the state of soul they were in, and He gave them the Spirit accordingly.

Ques. Would you say the work was first operative in Jacob when he had the vision of the ladder going from earth to heaven?

J.T. The work of God was in Jacob from the very beginning. He "was a plain man". Esau was a man of the field. A mark of a Christian is that he is

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not a man of the field, that is of the world. Jacob was a plain man who lived in tents. Abraham dwelt in tents. That brings in the thought of parents -- older ones -- living with younger ones. Jacob obeyed his father and mother, but then you see another thing in Genesis 27. Isaac smells him, and says, "See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed". That is another thing. The Christian has a fruitful smell, a smell of a field which the Lord has blessed. There you see the potentiality of a Christian. The field is to be cultivated. It may yield this crop, or that crop, but the fruitfulness is there. The potentiality of the field is indicated in Isaac's remark. You look at a young Christian, and you say, 'What potentialities!' All these possibilities are contingent on one's laying hold of the thing, laying hold of the mind of God, and going in for it. Isaac asks that corn and wine might sustain him. God not only conveys His mind to you, but he sustains you in the pathway.

Rem. The Lord says, "As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me" (John 6:57). Is not that the means of being sustained?

J.T. Quite. The sixth chapter of John is the food. The third is the mind of God, the fourth the Spirit, the fifth the work and power of Christ. The sixth chapter is the food, sustenance. The seventh is the Spirit going out. You are built up now for the testimony. You are standing on your feet and sustained, and the Holy Spirit comes down for the sake of the testimony. It is a question now of being energetic.

C.S.S. What is the thought of prevailing with the angel?

J.T. First it says, "In his strength he wrestled with God. Yea, he wrestled with the Angel, and prevailed". In the prophet's mind, God was there,

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but He was there, representatively, in the angel. It was a man, according to the book of Genesis. It says there that a man wrestled with him.

C.S.S. He stood the test.

J.T. It is very remarkable that he was allowed to prevail. I think God encouraged him to overcome. It suggests, I think, how God encourages a young Christian as he attempts to pray and turn to God about things.

C.S.S. Would you say he is one that is especially loved? I mean the overcomer, in the language of the prophet: "Jacob have I loved".

J.T. That is right. We have little idea how delightful it is to God as we insist on getting things from Him.

W.J.Y. Do you think if we allowed these spiritual instincts to prevail within us that development would be much more rapid than it really is?

J.T. I think so. The meetings are relied upon almost entirely, and the home, and what is obtained in the home readings and family worship, whereas these scriptures show that each individual believer has to turn to God himself if he is to come into things definitely. He has to follow the line of Jacob in wrestling with God.

Rem. We get the way in which he prevailed, "He wept and made supplication".

J.T. That is a condition. We do not get that in Genesis, showing that there is more than is recorded in Genesis. And then it says that God found him in Bethel. God found him. That is, your wrestling and energies and supplication and weeping bring you under the notice of God in a special way, and in no less a place than in His house. You really find yourself in the house on this line. It is a reference to Genesis 35.

W.J.Y. I think that question of personal and private exercise is a very searching one today, with

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such busy lives as most people lead. We are very apt to depend on the meetings for everything.

J.T. And then we enjoy the written ministry. All these things are provided for us, but they are only really helpful as we have individual intercourse with God, and go in for things definitely.

L.B.B. They are not much use to us unless there is the wrestling?

J.T. It is wrestling that makes you a prince, because you come into the nobility that way. That is how we come to belong to the nobility. God alone can ennoble man, but He does not ennoble you formally until you are equal to it spiritually; that is, you are great enough to belong to the 'peerage'. God changed his name. "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Genesis 32:28).

W.W. What would you say is implied in the blessing of Esau in Genesis 27?

J.T. That is concerning things to come. It would refer to the place that the nations will be in, subordinate to Israel in the future. It is referred to in Hebrews 11:20. "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come". It brings out the richness of Christ in blessing. Even Esau is blessed.

W.M. Is there any help for us here in the first chapter of Ephesians, "After that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"? The people of God spoken of there, had in a kind of a way believed; but when there was a whole-hearted committal to God, and a resting upon what God had said, there was the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. That is so. It comes in in the order of one, two, three. "After that ye believed". One would say, How long after? So long as you have that before you, I think it is right. Really it reads, "In whom

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also, having believed", but the tense would show that it is in the order of believing, and then receiving. As a matter of fact, historically, the Ephesian Christians had believed in John's ministry. They believed on Christ, but through imperfect teaching; Paul preached the gospel to them, but even then they did not get the Spirit. They got it by the laying on of his hands. We have to notice these things, because we have to leave it to God as to when He gives the Spirit. We must not make Him act automatically. It is His sovereign gift. In the Acts we have instances of that. The Samaritans did not get the Spirit until Peter and John came down. Cornelius got the Spirit while Peter was preaching. Those at Ephesus got the Spirit after they were baptised, and Paul laid his hands on them. But the gift is given to all those who obey Christ.

H.W. That puts a great responsibility on the gospel preacher, to bring the mind of God before people, and produce desire, so that people ask.

J.T. Quite. You want to make Christ attractive to souls, so that they go in for what Christ has got for them.

W.J.Y. Where do you put the fourth chapter of John, in connection with Jacob?

J.T. I think it would be in Genesis 32 where he wrestles. He gets the blessing there definitely.

W.J.Y. That is what he gets after he wrestles. Does not John convey the thought not only of something within us, but a link with what is of God without us? We are brought into an environment of blessing. The woman had had an environment that did not satisfy her, but God provides an environment that will perfectly satisfy her.

J.T. That is very good, so that the power in the soul springs up into that.

H.W. What is the sun rising upon him when he went over the brook?

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J.T. He is now in the unqualified favour of God. The sun is a symbol of divine favour. Think of what it is to the Christian. What would the Christian be without it?

Ques. Why was it that the One who wrestled with Jacob declined to tell him His name?

J.T. Because He wanted to tell him His name where it could be enhanced. He reserved that for Bethel. The disclosure of His name is in His house. In Bethel He reveals His name to Jacob, because He had come right down to where he was. We read of his feet resting in a certain place, so that Jacob was entirely to God's satisfaction. In chapter 35 He comes right down to Jacob where he is. He is in His house, there by him.

Ques. Is it that after the wrestling the desire to know God was produced in Jacob?

J.T. I think so. Certain things happened afterwards that were very discreditable, but nevertheless God would have him come to Bethel, and dwell there. You will find two histories of the event in chapter 35. One is the historic account from previous records. The other is on the divine side. In chapter 35:1 we read "And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother". In verse 9, God appeared to Jacob again -- an additional record. There God gives him his name. "Thy name is Jacob; thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God almighty" (verses 10,11). "And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel" (verse 15). That is a divine record of what God did. It includes really all that happened in chapter 32, but it is all brought in here as belonging to Bethel.

Ques. Why did he call it a dreadful place?

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J.T. Because he was not equal to it, like numbers of believers at the present time. They are not equal to the place.

Ques. Would you say he was not converted?

J.T. I think he was converted, he had light in his soul. He was in obedience to his father and his mother, but he was not fit for the house.

Ques. Was he saved?

J.T. Not in the sense of being saved from the world, because he was going to Syria and he remained there for twenty years. He was not saved from that.

H.W. He had not found God yet?

J.T. God found him at Bethel.

H.W. I think we find God when we get there in our souls.

J.T. That is quite true, but the reading of this passage is, "He wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; even the Lord God of hosts". I think it is God who found Jacob in Bethel.

Ques. What would you say about the twenty years after?

J.T. It is like many of us after we get light, we go in for natural things, and leave an accumulation to our families, but God never gives us up, never! He will come round and order things in His government which will force us to move, and what we find is, that when Joseph was born, Jacob feels that he must move and get out of the place. Christ came into his considerations typically.

W.M. It was the great plight Jacob was in that led to this exercise.

J.T. Yes, but God had ordered the circumstances because all the wives and children and cattle had gone over the brook. He was alone. It was definitely arranged. It brings out the importance of having to do with God personally.

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Ques. Is it affection for the Lord Jesus which enables us to prevail?

J.T. I think so. You get to appreciate what He has secured and you go in for it.

Ques. As a prince he gets before God.

J.T. Yes, he belongs to the nobility. "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16). He goes to God about things, and God answers him. And then you have power with men. If you are praying for a brother, you are sure to get power with him.

C.S.S. It is not only fervent, but effectual.

Rem. I suppose believers have to overcome the world before they come into the enjoyment of eternal life.

J.T. These chapters show that eternal life is the gift of His love, and the Spirit is the gift of God. God gave His Son in order that we might have eternal life, and gives His Spirit to us in order that we might enjoy it. You want the knowledge of God. As was pointed out, and it is most important, the woman had had to do with an order of things, and she thirsted again, but now she is to be brought into another order of things, and the well in her would lead her to it effectively. The well springs up into everlasting life. You are in that way delivered from the world of sin by the Spirit in you.

Ques. Is not the key to the position, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink"?

J.T. If you only knew, "the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink" -- the light of that would encourage you to ask Him, and He would give you living water.

Ques. Would you say eternal life is where Christ lives?

J.T. It is a sphere and order of things in contrast with what you have here. She had drunk of the

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springs of this world, and she thirsted again. But now she had come into an order of things where there was satisfaction. That is a wonderful presentation of the truth, and yet most practical, because the provision of the Spirit lets you into it. Jacob illustrates it by his energy. She left her water pot. She saw the thing was to be in herself.

Ques. If He is the eternal life, we have to reach Him before we can enjoy it? That is, the other side of death.

J.T. Quite so. The question of burying is most important, because the flesh has no part in this at all. The thought of baptism comes in in the third chapter, and in the fourth, and there is no doubt that it has a meaning, because of the spiritual structure that is being built up in you.

L.B.B. Would the well of water springing up be the outcome of wrestling?

J.T. I think so. "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me". It is remarkable that in Romans 6 we have baptism, and in chapter 5:21 "grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life". Chapter 5 is administration. Life is administered. It comes through our Lord Jesus Christ through righteousness. Grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life. Chapter 6 begins with our being baptised. "So many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ were baptised into his death". "As Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (verses 3,4). It is a new thing entirely. The old is buried. The chapter goes on to "the wages of sin is death". It is through Him in the fifth chapter, but it is in Him, as to position, in the sixth chapter. It is an act of favour of God, the gift of God -- eternal life in Christ Jesus (verse 23).

H.W. Would you say God brings the believer into

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divine things before he understands the terms of the things?

J.T. No doubt. You understand the things by having them. You must have them before you can understand them.

Rem. If it is the result of energy, we will value what is hard, and not easy to get.

J.T. It is those that come into it in this way that value it. If you simply accept it as an inheritance you will not value it in the same way. Of course the inheritance is to be valued, because it is on the divine side; but you have to get the individual blessing before you enter into the thing. It is remarkable in the book of Genesis how much of that there is; how the patriarchs were kept waiting for things. Hence Abraham had to wait for a son, and Isaac had to wait for a son, and Jacob had to go into Syria for a wife. They had to go after things, and thus show that they valued them.

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THE ENERGY OF LIFE

Acts 1:1 - 5; Acts 9:32 - 43; Acts 20:8 - 12

J.T. I thought we might say a little more about life this afternoon. Last evening we began with the work of God in our souls, the initial work of God in new birth. I was pointing out that that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, and that it shows itself at the beginning in certain instincts, which disallow the flesh, as Jacob supplanted Esau. As it develops, the believer acquires moral strength, so that he wrestles with God, and sees what God has made available, through the death of Christ, by the gospel, and he values it, and seeks it from God, and obtains it; so that, as spiritual life develops in us, it is marked by energy and appreciation of what God makes available to us in the gospel. The Spirit is in John 4. He becomes in the believer a well of water, springing up into an entirely new order of things, which is called eternal life.

This afternoon I thought we might begin at the top, and see the thing in Christ, because that is how God begins dispensationally. He begins with Christ, and everything is worked out according to that pattern. Hence, I thought that in reading the first chapter of this book we might see something of Christ alive from the dead. It is said, "He presented himself living to them". God has that high standard before Him in the development of life, and His thought is to bring us into accord with that. So that the book of Acts is not from the standpoint of the believer's need, but from the standpoint of the divine requirements and testimony. We begin at the top. We begin with Christ alive after He suffered. I thought that it would be a fitting theme for us on the first day of the week, because it is the day in

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which we are free to enter into the land, to apprehend Christ as He is presented in the sheaf of first-fruits. "Christ the first-fruits" (1 Corinthians 15:23). It is really life out of death; there could be no profit for God in man simply dying under penalty. In man dying under penalty there is only the great white throne, and the dead, small and great, stand before Him, but in the sowing of Christ there is a crop for God, a yield for God. That is, I think, what is in view in presenting Christ alive. He is the first-fruits, and the crop comes in in connection with Him. We have part with Him as the first-fruits.

W.J.Y. Would it be right to say on this line the object is Christ risen, and not Christ ascended?

J.T. That is what I think. His forty days on earth after He rose, presenting Himself alive, afford us a view of life, and, as you were saying last night, the Spirit in us leads up to that.

W.J.Y. New conditions down here upon earth.

J.T. Yes. He was seen by them during forty days. That is not recorded in the gospels -- that is, the number of days. It is recorded here because this is the complete form on which things are worked out, in the Acts. So that those who formed the nucleus of the dispensation had an opportunity of witnessing Him for that period of time. They would gather up a remarkable apprehension of Christ in the variety of ways in which He was seen of them during the whole period of forty days.

W.J.Y. I think it has been a difficulty for many that it has been stated that the truth of eternal life is connected with earth, whereas they, in their minds, have connected it with their heavenly position.

J.T. It appears that it is what God brings into the scene where death has been, and in John's epistle, where I do not think the word 'heaven' appears, we have the life worked out in relation to the saints. He says that the Son of God has come, but He came

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by water and blood, "not by water only, but by water and blood" (1 John 5:6). "And it is the Spirit that beareth witness". So that in connection with His coming we have the thought of purification -- moral and judicial cleansing. The water is put first, because what is more prominent is the removal of the man who brought in death. The water is that aspect of the death of Christ which sets the man aside from us. The blood sets him aside judicially from before God.

H.W. Why is He presented in that way, when the water sets forth the removal of the man after the flesh?

J.T. Because water is not for God. Water is for us. It is not atonement. Blood is atonement. Blood comes first in John's gospel -- "blood and water". It is a question of what is due to God there. God is considering for us, and our coming into the thing in the epistle of John, and so the water is placed first, because we need to apprehend how thoroughly the man that brought in the guilt and death is disposed of. The water effects complete cleansing in our souls from sin -- from all that has polluted. The blood is atonement. It is the judicial side. It will work out in millennial times in the practical purification of the earth by judgment. Now it works out in our judging ourselves, so that we are "born of water and of the Spirit". The element of water in the birth is, I think, that you learn at the outset to cleanse yourself. It is the idea of purification from what is natural.

Ques. Where would the washing of regeneration come in in that connection?

J.T. It is the same thought. It is an expression used just twice; once in Matthew, referring to the millennial world, where there will be practical purification. The pollution of the world will be washed away by judgment. Now it is by our judging ourselves. Baptism is a symbol of it, I think. But to refer to our brother's suggestion, the epistle of John

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works out the great truth of life in connection with the Son of God having come. It does not say that He has come and gone -- come and ascended to heaven. It is that the Son of God has come, and come by water and blood. There is no thought of His going, in John's epistle. It is that He has come into the sphere of testimony, to bring in life, and life is brought in and presented as in Him. "This life is in his Son" (1 John 5:11).

W.J.Y. It does not mean that what we enjoy here on earth we lose in any way when the time of ascension comes. We do not lose it.

J.T. It is the victory over death; life in the Son where death has been, is the great thing God had before Him in regard to man, but it works out in the assembly. In fact, He works out all His thoughts on the ground of eternal life, because if men are to live for ever acceptably to God, He works out His thoughts in them. In this chapter we have Christ seen alive. He presented Himself alive to His disciples during forty days so that they might apprehend what the divine thought was. They would see it there in a concrete way in Him, and the coming of the Spirit would enable them to live in that in a spiritual way, even whilst down here.

H.W. Is it what John speaks of in the epistles, "Which thing is true in him and in you" (1 John 2:8)? You see the thing set forth in Christ first.

J.T. Quite so. It is important to note that in John's epistle it is not what ascended to heaven, but it is the Son of God having come. There is nothing said about His going. We are in a faith system. We apprehend Him as having come in. He is apprehended by faith, and the life is in Him, and we have got it in Him. "This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 John 5:11).

W.J.Y. Your suggestion is that the forty days He lived upon earth a Man in resurrection under the eye

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of God are a pattern to us of what eternal life truly is.

J.T. That is what I thought. The ten days that ensued until the Holy Spirit came down bring about the exercises of the fifty days spoken of in the book of Leviticus. They were to number fifty days from the time of the offering up of the sheaf. No doubt the forty days would enter into it, too, but for ten days the Lord would place them on their own resources. They would work out in their own exercises what they had seen, and in the coming in of the Spirit and His taking that up -- you have the two wave loaves. There is correspondence with Christ in us. Even whilst we are still in the flesh, provision is made so that we should correspond with Christ.

E.B. The Lord having presented Himself alive in this connection, was it really for the assembly period, for the present moment?

J.T. That is it. He was setting before them what God would lead them to in a spiritual way by the Spirit. So that the epistle gives us an authentic account of the thing. "That ... which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" (1 John 1:1). The thing was there, and they were witnesses of it, and John sought to bring the believers into that.

H.W. "That ... which we have seen" and "handled" -- would that refer to the Lord as known in resurrection?

J.T. Yes. It was true of Him before, too. I think what is presented in the gospel is that Christ, as He is risen from the dead, has eternal life. What is presented in the gospel preached, I mean. The apostle is working it out. We have to understand how he came into the land, to lay hold of Christ, and apprehend Him as He is out of death. He could be here for forty days unseen by the world outside. He could go in and out, notwithstanding closed doors.

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And yet it was Himself. There were many proofs that it was Himself.

L.B.B. So that eternal life is not something you can take account of outwardly?

J.T. The effects of it you can take account of outwardly, but the thing itself is outside the range of men in this world. The apostle saw it.

W.J.Y. Is your thought that during the forty days a perfect example was before them, and then there were ten days of soul exercise on their part, and then the Spirit comes to give them power to carry out their exercise?

J.T. That is what I thought, so that they could bring out of their dwellings what would correspond with Christ. There is no leaven to deal with when we are translated to heaven; it refers to us as we are now. By the Spirit the flesh is so effectively dealt with that it has no entrance.

C.S.S. Do you connect baking with the laying hold?

J.T. You cannot be in the enjoyment of this, which is so perfectly seen in Christ in this passage, and allow the flesh. Some of us are like dough -- not baked at all, and some of us are half-baked. That is, the fire has not become wholly effective. We have not applied the fire. The Spirit came in the character of cloven tongues and of fire. The fire is the power that one has of effectively disallowing the flesh, so that, although it is admitted to be present, it is not active.

H.W. Are you referring to the two wave loaves?

J.T. Yes.

H.W. You suggest that answers to the assembly position?

J.T. Yes, it answers to the individual exercises of each one in the light of the sheaf of first-fruits. The sheaf is offered up by the priests. The next thing is, how may I be brought into accord with that? It is

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because I am left down here as I am that the fire is necessary, so that, notwithstanding the sin in me, I am brought into accord with Christ.

J.S. Does the epistle to the Colossians come in in connection with the forty days?

J.T. It is on that line. We are said there to be "risen with him through the faith of the operation of God" (Colossians 2:12), so that we are brought into correspondence with Christ in Colossians in the sense that we are circumcised in His circumcision, and baptised with Him in baptism, and raised with Him by faith. Notice the words 'by faith'. We are not circumcised by faith, or baptised by faith, but risen by faith. It is the faith of the operation of God, meaning that I apprehend the power of God. It is effective in Christ, and it is to be effective in me. The thing is already done for faith, and I take account of it that way. Then we are quickened with Him. This is not by faith, because it is actual. Circumcision is actual, and burial is actual, and quickening is actual, but resurrection is on the principle of faith, and that maintains the dispensation, because it is in faith: I have power in my soul to enter into the position because I am quickened.

Ques. Is there a distinction between resurrection and quickening?

J.T. The only person out of death is Christ, but the power of God in Christ -- I believe in it. It is not the faith that He is risen, it is faith in the operation of God. I believe in the power; not merely in the historical fact that Christ is risen, but in the power that raised Him. So that God can regard things that be not as though they were, and so can I. The quickening is an Æactual thing, which is effective in my soul by the Spirit, and what is so precious in Colossians is that everything is of Christ. If you love Him, you value that. So that faith and the Spirit's work go together. Now that power is operative

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in your soul to quicken you. Presently the body will be quickened as well as the soul.

W.J.Y. If faith is really operative, I suppose we would submit ourselves to the Spirit?

J.T. That gives the Spirit His range.

W.J.Y. We should sow to the Spirit?

J.T. Quite. In the measure of our faith the Spirit has range in us, and no more than that. I thought that chapter 9 helps us as to life in its bearing on the testimony practically. It is not only that I live for my own enjoyment. God satisfies the desire of every living thing. Every desire I have is satisfied as I apprehend my place in Christ. He satisfies the desire of every living thing, but then there is more than that; in my being satisfied spiritually, I am available in testimony. "The trees of the Lord are satisfied", or "full of sap", and, being full of sap, they are ornamental, and they afford shelter, and there is fruit and greenness, and all that which delights the eye of God, and man, too.

C.S.S. Is that in Psalm 1?

J.T. Yes, and in Psalm 104 particularly. The Psalm develops the bountifulness of God in the creation. There is plenty of nourishment for the trees, and they afford shelter for the birds -- in a good sense here. The stork has a house for herself there. Peter, discerning what God is about to do in Paul's ministry, accepts it, because the thought of life is to mark every local company for testimony. We have the idea in the Scriptures, not only of life in persons, but life in localities. Peter, I think, anticipated what God intended to effect in the Gentile world, and so he went to "all quarters", and he intimates in the case of Æneas that grace was acting now in connection with a new order of things. He says to Æneas, "Jesus, the Christ heals thee". He had the testimony in view, so he says, "Rise up, and make thy couch for thyself". That is, he intimates that,

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in the new line of things God was bringing in, in Paul's ministry, the local companies everywhere should learn to do things for themselves. There should be that sense of obligation, not depending on Jerusalem, so to speak, but learning to do things for themselves. And then, consequent on that, there is a living woman, a woman raised from the dead. Peter presents this woman living. We have a man making his bed for himself, and then the living woman.

W.J.Y. On both occasions the power of Christ operated first?

J.T. Quite.

W.J.Y. Would it correspond in measure with John 7 -- "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"?

J.T. I thought so. In a man that can make his bed for himself, and a woman living, you have the testimony of John 7, because that is the effect of life, the Spirit being here.

Rem. Man making his bed for himself would involve that he not only has life, but power.

J.T. Quite. He is not dependent on a visiting person. He values him when he comes, but he sees that what is to be done is done locally, and then the living woman is like a green fir tree. That is what Ephraim says he is, "I am like a green fir tree" (Hosea 14:8). He stands the test of all weathers. A fir is, I apprehend, an evergreen, and, therefore, if you come to the locality where spiritual life is (the living woman) you have the greenness in all weathers -- however trying things may be. Life is there in evidence, whatever happens. I do not suggest that the fir is a fruit tree. It serves that one thought, that it stands out in its greenness, whatever happens. God says, "From me is thy fruit found" (Hosea 14:8). That is another thought.

W.C. The fir tree withstands the elements.

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C.S.S. Are you speaking of individuals, or companies?

J.T. It is individual. You may apply it to an individual or to a company.

C.S.S. "How good and how pleasant it is" (Psalm 133:1) -- is that the thought?

J.T. Yes; the woman gives character subjectively. She is presented to the saints and to the widows living. You had her making garments, but now it is a living person. That would exercise all these saints and these widows, because now they have a person out of death -- an immense testimony!

C.S.S. In the working out of life, is it the same idea as eternal life, or would there be a distinction?

J.T. This is more the form it takes in the testimony. The Lord, in chapter 1. presents the idea of what is for God. You enter into that for enjoyment, but then there is the testimony -- the effect of that. God being the living God, you find the reference to what is living generally in scriptures that refer to the Jews; and it was important that Peter, being an apostle of the circumcision, should exercise the idea of life, in view of what was coming in among the Gentiles. The conditions in Judaea should correspond with those about to be set up among the Gentiles. From Jerusalem, round about Illyricum (which was an immense tract of territory), the gospel was to be announced by Paul, and, in the announcing of it, a number of assemblies were formed, and these assemblies would all be marked by these two things -- making their beds for themselves, and living. Peter anticipates all that, guided by the Spirit, and prepares for exchange between Paul's assemblies and what was in Judaea, so that the assembly at Thessalonica imitated the assemblies of God which were in Judaea. They could do so, because Peter's ministry had laid the foundation for what was universal.

W.J.Y. Would it bear the application that in

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Peter we see how one spiritual man could be used to improve local conditions?

J.T. I am sure that is right. The Lord appeared to Cephas, and He appeared to the twelve; and He appeared to five hundred brethren at once; and He appeared to James. In appearing to James, He meant to impress James in a special way, so that He might set out what one man can do -- how much one man can do. Five hundred brethren, of course, would be five hundred impressions of Christ, but one man gets an appearing by himself, and there would be, therefore, a remarkable impression made on his soul, and I take this to indicate what one man can effect in the things of God; like Elias, whom James speaks of. One man shut up the heavens for three and a half years by prayer, and again he prayed and the heaven gave rain; (James 5:17,18). It is a most important side in connection with the testimony. Peter, in this movement, going into all quarters, and anticipating the work coming in through Paul, laid a gauge of railway, so to speak, which would correspond with the gauge of the Gentile world. You do not have to change trains, so to speak. You could start from Illyricum, on the shores of the Adriatic, and proceed eastward in the same carriage, because the principles of Peter, and those of Paul, agreed. The assemblies in Judaea and the churches in the Gentile world were now governed by the same principles. It was no longer a metropolitan influence. Each had learnt to make its bed for itself, and there was life locally, so that brethren going from Illyricum or Rome to an assembly in Judaea would be quite at home. They were all governed by the same principles. That is an immense thought in connection with the working out of the testimony of God, that the same principles should rule everywhere. We should not admit of local customs or national customs. Peter, later in his epistle, confirms Paul's doctrine in saying

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they were "living stones" (1 Peter 2:5). As coming to Him they were living stones, and that would divert them from Jerusalem. "Ye ... are built up a spiritual house". That all confirms Paul's universal principles. The Corinthians were the temple of God.

Ques. Was the evidence of life in making the bed, for themselves, or for those outside as well?

J.T. It is a principle of doing things that are to be done. If you want to be comfortable, you need to make your own bed. You must not expect others to do it. Peter and John went down to Samaria. That was right then, but the time was coming when that had to cease, and they had to learn to do things themselves.

Oues. You see the Spirit coming in an independent way?

J.T. It is autonomy. You are not exactly independent. You are inter-dependent, but you are not looking to any centre like London or Melbourne for help. You learn to do things yourselves in every locality.

W.J.Y. The principles of life are active in every place.

H.W. There would be exercise in doing things for ourselves to be in line with the features of the house of God.

J.T. That is it; so that the train can start from here and go right through. One has observed, in going about, local customs in connection with things of God -- particularly in other countries -- and it is a thing to be avoided.

E.B. God has wrought sovereignly in connection with new birth in every locality, so that He might bring these conditions about.

J.T. That is it. Life is of its own kind.

W.W. If things are not running on these lines, as suggested in that part of the chapter, there is the danger of specialising.

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J.T. She was "full of good works and alms-deeds which she did".

W.W. She had one line before her mind. When she was raised to life again it would be on different lines. It would not be on a narrow gauge.

J.T. To come to chapter 20, I think there we have resuscitated life. I suppose the reference would be to assembly history. It may be, therefore, regarded as life, such as we have it now, brought in after failure. It is brought in through affection. "Enfolding him in his arms", it says. It does not appear that he was wholly dead. He was capable of resuscitation. "They brought away the boy alive". The living boy is youthful life. In some gatherings there is more of the life of experience with God than of the youthful feature. We need both, to have things according to God. And I think what you get here is a suggestion of life in those who are young. "They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted".

J.S. He was a youth before he fell, and when he was "come up again" he was a boy.

J.T. When it says a youth it means a young person. A boy is more than that. There is responsibility. You hold a boy of twelve, or fifteen, or eighteen years as responsible in some sense. He is responsible. There is nothing so attractive, naturally, as youthful life. How much more so in a spiritual way, as young people are budding out and showing the evidence of spiritual life. There is a certain freshness about them.

C.S.S. They are going through the baking.

J.T. Quite. There is a freshness about youth. It is a great loss if we have not got it.

C.S.S. Speaking of restored life, is that why the Spirit of God has been bringing the question of life so much before us of late?

J.T. It is a great feature in John. It shows that

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it comes in at the end of the dispensation. It is the secret of recovery. God has resuscitated His people. He has made us to live. Paul enfolded him in his arms. It is the principle of Philadelphia -- love of the brethren. We do not love at a distance from one another. We drink out of the same cup. It is the principle of family interests and affection.

W.B.P. Do you think things had really died, and God is bringing life amongst the saints as a whole?

J.T. Yes. The people of God ceased to listen to Paul. You see here how serious it was with Eutychus. If it were not for Paul's intervention he would have died.

W.W. In that sense can we administer Paul's caress now?

J.T. I think you know. How do you deal with the young people here?

W.W. I should like to deal with them on these lines. The assembly was "not a little comforted".

J.T. The Lord is reviving this spirit of affection among the brethren, so that there is care and interest shown.

W.J.Y. Do you refer in a practical way to the last ten years? There has been a very evident movement in connection with the young people of our meetings.

J.T. One is struck with it. It is most encouraging. A boy has to be controlled, of course, and guided, but there is a freshness and vigour in a young person which does not mark an old one.

W.C. You say the thing is essential to the life of an assembly?

J.T. Quite.

W.C. Is that on the ground of restored life?

J.T. It is. Dispensationally, I think it is what our brother has referred to -- that which God, having come in, has brought about. The thought of the Lord's supper being made prominent, and that He is coming to us, brought about affection that marked

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the assembly at the beginning. I think Paul represents the fulness of Christian affection. It is there presented as in no other person. He knew the love of Christ more than anyone else, I judge, because he says, "who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). And, knowing the love of Christ, he could express it to others. I think the Lord is reviving that thought, and bringing about affection like that, and, further, there has been great concern about young people. They are given to know that they are cared for and loved, loved into life.

L.B.B. What would be indicated by this youth being overpowered by sleep -- that there was indifference?

J.T. Yes, indifference to Paul's ministry.

Ques. Is there anything in the fact that in chapter 10 Peter descends to the saints, and in chapter 20 Paul descends to the youth?

J.T. It is descending love. When you descend you do it of yourself. The New Jerusalem descends from God out of heaven. It is the liberty of love, I think.

W.J.Y. I think that last thought in connection with what is youthful is very encouraging. There was a time when it seemed as if what was youthful was being stifled by mere doctrine. One is thankful for the brotherliness which has recovered the youthful element among us.

J.T. It marks the brethren. The principles governing the believer's household have been emphasised, and, I think, accepted. The people of God accept the principles that govern the believer's household. The gospel was announced in Europe to the gaoler, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31). There is no doubt that the Lord intended that the households of His people should contribute to the assemblies in Europe, and it has come to pass.

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C.S.S. Is there the suggestion that the youth had got above his brethren?

J.T. I think he had an eye on the world. Paul was discoursing a long time.

E.B. The recovery here was in connection with the saints being together in the light of breaking bread. Is that largely how recovery is going on at the present moment?

J.T. The Lord has emphasised the thought of the truth of His supper, and I think it has promoted affection such as Paul had. We count on affection. It has led to consideration for young people. So that you have, that they break bread and take the boy away alive. That is how the matter stands.

J.W. The window seat is not a good place for the young people. They want to get into the warmth of the circle.

J.T. Yes. This young man was sitting in the window opening.

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SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY

Ephesians 4:1 - 6; Proverbs 31:10 - 31

J.T. In considering these scriptures I thought that we might be led to see that the divine thought is that all the saints should be active. I had in mind, particularly, verses 15 and 16 of Ephesians 4, which contemplate an organism. The earlier part of the chapter indicates what corresponds with the natural or physical creation; there is an order of things established: "One body and one Spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". We have an order of things indicated corresponding with the physical order of things. That is, God has provided from His side what we may speak of as light, and heat, and atmosphere -- everything that is necessary -- but these conditions have to be taken up, and each one has to become industrious in order that there should be growth and progression; in a word, spiritual independency. It is in utilising what God has so bountifully provided in nature that men live and provide for themselves what is necessary, and so I think in the spiritual order of things it is in utilising what God has made available so bountifully that we develop and become spiritually rich and independent. It says, "To each one of us has been given grace" (Ephesians 4:7).

H.W. In view of our finding our place in relation to the whole?

J.T. Yes.

Ques. When you speak of being independent, you do not mean independent of one another?

J.T. No, it is an independent organism. There is absolute mutual dependence in an organism, but

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verses 15 and 16 indicate that there is independence of what is outside -- what is in this world.

H.W. Is grace given to us in order that we might act in connection with these three circles of blessing, which are mentioned here?

J.T. Yes, I think these three circles of blessing may be taken to represent the general conditions in which we may become successfully industrious. There is every prospect of success. We all know that in prospecting in colonial life we take into account all the conditions, the heat, and the possible rain, the fertility of the soil, etc., so that, taking account of all these things as favourable, you reasonably decide that by application and industry you are sure to be successful. I think these things which are mentioned, these three circles and the grace given to every one of us, furnish conditions that ensure success if we are at all industrious. Then in addition to these general conditions, you have the gifts as additional helps.

W.J.Y. I think we need to be stirred up as to spiritual energy. The lack of balance in the presentation of the gospel, the insisting on the pure grace of the gospel, has led us, perhaps, to think that energy was never required. We say, "Cast your deadly doing down" and we go on these lines for the rest of our lives.

J.T. That means we are parasites spiritually, of whom there are a great many. And perhaps we are parasites, with the assumption that it is according to God to be a parasite, but the divine intent is that we should be industrious, and contribute to the general prosperity of the assembly.

H.W. The book of Proverbs will help on that line.

J.T. That is the reason I turned to it, because it works up to what we get in the last chapter. It points out the sluggard, the lazy man, and then over against that, the faithful, industrious man.

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Ques. Would you say the industrious man gets spiritual support -- he learns to stand alone?

J.T. Yes. You have so much in your favour. See how bountifully God has provided for us in the physical system. There is the sun rising every morning, with its light and heat, reaching everywhere. There is nothing hid from the heat of it. And then there is an atmosphere so fresh and health-giving. It is all provided in the most infinite bounty. And then the rain comes down unsolicited, and the earth is fertile. God has created conditions on the earth with which we have had nothing to do. All the conditions are there, but man is to be on the scene, and it is for him to utilise them, and, of course, he does. But how about it spiritually? There is not one of us but has some employment. One of the first things a person capable of working wants to know is what he is going to do, what is to be his work. It is as natural as anything. But does it work this way spiritually?

L.B.B. I suppose if we were industrious we would become contributors?

J.T. A young believer asks, "What is my employment to be?" that is the first thing. Then the second is that he turns to the Lord about it, and it soon appears that there is plenty of work for him, and that grace is provided, because it says, "To each one of us has been given grace" (verse 7). And then you see how bountifully God has provided spiritual things, corresponding to the things which are in the physical creation: light, heat, atmosphere, and even soil, because one can begin with oneself. If one is to produce a crop, one has to begin with oneself, and begin sowing to the Spirit. As the believer learns to sow in himself, he learns to cast his seed a little further out, and so he becomes productive. General productiveness leads to riches in the "Commonwealth".

H.W. We have been led to believe that activity

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with a young soul recently brought into blessing has sometimes been injurious as to the work of God in the soul.

J.T. I think one begins in oneself, because that is a bit of territory which no one can dispute. You have your own self or body. That is, according to Romans 12:1, the first thing that you are to surrender. "Present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable". One begins with one's own self, and if you cultivate that little bit, more ground will be available. You see here that the virtuous woman acquires a field. She extends her industry. If I develop the little bit that no one can dispute, then it will soon become apparent that I am able to develop more, that I have some farming ability, so to speak. It says in Isaiah 28:26 of the farmer, that "his God doth instruct him".

H.W. Do you suggest that our activities in connection with industry in divine things should be with a view to accumulating wealth for ourselves?

J.T. Yes. It all leads up to verses 15 and 16, where you have the body in its automatic activity, self-acting.

W.C. Before we enter into the activities, the last phrase of verse 1 would come in, "Walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called".

J.T. Quite. In fact the apostle Paul's position, as a prisoner in the Lord, is a help, because it suggests that however limited we may be in the government of God, we may still be productive. He was a prisoner. He was a prisoner in the Lord. One may be in circumstances that are extremely trying, as his were, but it is "in the Lord", and one can reckon that if it is "in the Lord", the Lord will come in. So that, however trying the circumstances may be, I may still be productive, as Paul was.

W.J.Y. The illustration of nature is very helpful, because all the activities of man are connected with

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the gifts of God. There is no activity of man in manufacturing or commerce but what is directly in connection with the gifts of God; even the very breath he breathes.

C.S.S. If there was not this spiritual industry you would say we are on losing ground? "Taken even that which he seemeth to have" (Luke 8:18).

J.T. Just so, and we are obliged to live on others.

E.B. Is not this where the wrestling we were speaking of in a previous reading comes to light? The one who has wrestled is prepared to take up the interests of Christ in the assembly.

J.T. Then there is a word in 2 Thessalonians 3:10, "If any man does not like to work, neither let him eat". That is literal, but there is this in it, that everyone should be employed. There is something for everyone to do, and if one is not doing it, then he is remiss. Let him admit that, anyway.

J.W. What would be the general indications of what the Lord had fitted us to do? Some of us spend nearly all our lives in trying to find out what our special line is. We aspire to the showy things. Will you give some indications as to how the ordinary believer can find out what he is fitted for?

J.T. The first thing would be to get a hold in our souls of the general divine conditions which are indicated in these three circles: "One body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". There you are set in relation to a universal order of things -- an ever-widening circle, and in the very widest sense -- a circle connected with the Father who is said to be in us all. I am, therefore, in connection with the universal order of things, and the Father is over it. There is a universal circle over which the Father is,

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and He pervades it, just as Paul said in connection with the physical world, "In him we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28). That was said to unbelievers. But this, I apprehend, has reference to believers. The Father is not connected with unbelievers. God is, and everyone in the world lives and moves, and has his being in God. What a testimony that is! It is brought in in connection with the gospel, but this is not to unbelievers. It is for believers. We are connected with a universal order of things over which the Father is, and through which He is, and He is in us all, so that He is thus brought near to us, and within that there is the kingdom -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism, meaning that things are in the hand of the Lord administratively, and baptism introduces me into that. I am in that, in active faith, and then within that there is the hope of the calling, and the one body, and the one Spirit. That is what you are coming to. The two external circles will go on into the world to come. But what he is coming to, is the one body and the one Spirit, and one hope. The other two subserve the inner thing, because that is what gives character at the present time; "the one body and the one Spirit, and the one hope of our calling". We are brought thus into the midst of these circles that are all serving us. I draw upon them all, the Father and the Lord; and then I draw upon the brethren -- the body. God administers these things in infinite freedom and richness, so that I do not need to do anything for them. It is all there, and as to light, it is there. I do not have to do anything for them, but when I come to the brethren, I see that there is much that I can do. The one body involves that I am bound up with the brethren organically, and if I default, I am damaging the whole, so that it is a serious matter. I am depriving them of my little bit, which could be compared to a screw missing in a piece of machinery.

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H.W. Is Barnabas an example of what you are speaking of?

J.T. He came in at a remarkable time, when two great apostles, the most distinguished ones, Peter and John, had been serving, and they went to their own company. All that they were doing was to subserve the company. They went to their own company, and hence, great and distinguished as they were, they were merged as they went into the company, so that they all prayed. They all prayed, and the place was shaken where they were assembled (Acts 4:31). There was one mind and perfect unity, and all they had was in common. It was in entire accord with the principles we have here. There was a circle of unity. And then it says Barnabas sold his land and brought the price and laid it at the apostles' feet, and was named by the apostles, "The son of consolation" (Acts 4:36,37).

W.J.Y. Is your thought here that we should be intelligent in what God is working for, and the resources that we have in connection with what He has provided, before our activities start?

J.T. I thought that. We see we have plenty of material to use in a general way, and not only that, but each one of us has got grace.

W.G. What is the measure of the gift of Christ?

J.T. There should be no cause of complaint, because it is the measure of His giving. He gives liberally. So that we come to what our brother suggests, the thought of each one finding his work.

W.B.P. Does the thought of what our hands find to do come in?

J.T. I think it does. We soon discover what we can do effectively. The Lord indicates that.

W.J.Y. So that intelligence would be a large factor in guiding us as to what we can do?

J.T. Yes. I am sure you have found that. You

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discover what you are most effective in, and the saints usually afford a place to you.

T.P. With regard to that Scripture about the hand finding something to do, would you say that what the hand findeth to do would not be beyond the reach of that person?

J.T. Yes, it is at your hand.

J.W. It is the idea of the member and the body functioning easily. My feet could not do what my hand could do. In a certain way you do it naturally and easily.

J.T. It is not forced. The function of the eye is not forced. There is no competitor. That is how it works in the body of Christ. There is no competition. There is no need of competition, for one cannot do another's work.

W.J.Y. No person in building a house would do his work properly unless he had the whole house in view, to change the illustration.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Would you say the moral conditions in us should be such that we are available for use?

J.T. Yes. Take an instance in the gospels. Peter's wife's mother was sick of a fever and the Lord touched her hand, meaning, that he intended as the fever left her, that she should be active. He touched her hand. I do not suppose it is a medical suggestion. The thought is that as the fever leaves she is to do something. The hand is a symbol of the power to work, so that as the fever left her she arose and ministered to them (Luke 4:39). "To them". Not only to the Lord Himself, but to those who were with Him. In other words, she is ready to do anything for the saints without discrimination. She ministered to them.

H.D. Verses 15 and 16 say we hold the truth in love, and grow up into Him in all things. There

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must be a link upwards before there can be the link downwards.

J.T. In order to see the full bearing of the passage here, as the question of gift arises the Spirit immediately brings in the Lord as ascending and descending, because we should all have a model before us. Think of what it cost Him to bring all this about! And as you apprehend that, you see that love will serve; it is the very essence of love to serve.

Ques. Do you think Peter's wife's mother was on wrong lines?

J.T. She describes a state of restlessness and complaining, a complaining person amongst the saints; whereas the thought is that we are to serve one another -- "by love serve one another" (Galatians 5:13). And she served them all.

W.W. The moral conditions which are a matter of exhortation in this chapter were expressed in Acts 4. They were all of one mind, and endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit. If these conditions prevailed at the beginning, we should expect to see the same conditions in evidence at the end.

J.T. They were well-off spiritually, and otherwise, too.

Ques. This would be in contrast to Martha being cumbered with much serving?

J.T. You mean encumbered with much serving, to the exclusion of drawing from the Lord. If one is encumbered with much serving, he is not drawing from the Head. What you get here is the supply from Christ, from whom the whole body gets increase (Ephesians 4:16). One has to be intelligent as to one's place and function, and thus there is a continual flow from the Head.

C.S.S. If we were connected in that way, with the Head, and there was intelligence, there would not be the feverish activity you have drawn our attention to.

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J.T. No; you know what you should do, and you do it.

W.J.Y. I like that thought as to no competition. If each one of us is doing his part, the part God has given him to do, there is no thought of anyone else being able to do it.

J.T. No; so that when we come to Proverbs, we have the aggregate of the saints in type acting, and I do not suppose you could get any such illustration anywhere of collective activity in dignity and liberty, and with results. She acts in intelligence and dignity, and yet with industry, not recoiling from the most menial thing, and yet her dignity is there, and the results are there.

H.W. She has her husband's interests at heart. Is that the secret of it?

J.T. Yes, she is a woman of worth. The assembly develops in this way in its members, as it were. As we fall in, and know our niche, and fulfil our function, there then appears this feature of worth, which has no peer. She is without an equal, showing that the assembly, from this point of view, in the way of industry, is employing materials that are available.

T.P. Would you say that she was working up to her full measure, but not beyond it? Should we not all know our own measure, and never seek to go beyond it?

J.T. That is what should be before us. If we have this before us we have arrived collectively in some measure at correspondence with this picture in Proverbs. The Lord is looking for something in the saints collectively to suggest it. He says, "Who can find a woman of worth?" The Lord scans the whole baptised profession to see this thing working out. This is what He is looking for. He has provided all the material, and all the conditions, but now the thing has to be worked out. The woman is the counterpart

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of the man. It is Christ femininely, as it were. All this came out in Him on earth, and now, "Who can find a woman of worth?"

W.J.Y. The natural illustration is that a wife's activities are in connection with what her husband has provided.

J.T. Just so.

W.G. "Her husband also, and he praiseth her".

J.T. "Her price is far above rubies". There is nothing to compare with her, and that, I think, helps us to see that in a little meeting, however small it is, in the Lord's eye where saints are working together in the things he has provided, there is some little suggestion of this woman of worth. He is looking for this. In the addresses to the assemblies He finds something like it in Philadelphia. There is the suggestion of it there.

H.D. In Ephesians grace is given according to the measure of the gift of Christ, and in Romans it works out in detail according to the measure.

J.T. Yes, "the measure of faith" there. It says, "The heart of her husband confideth in her". It seems to me that these conditions being present in any locality, the Lord would commit something. There would be something committed. I have no doubt we should have more light and development of truth if the Lord had more confidence in us. In John's gospel it says that the Lord did not commit Himself to certain people. There are those to whom He cannot commit Himself, but the assembly normally is the confidante of the Lord, and wherever we correspond, we come into His secrets. "The heart of her husband confideth in her". What an immense thing it is to be in the secrets of the Lord! He can give you something to keep for Him.

Ques. Would you say the activities of this woman illustrate affection for her husband?

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J.T. That is the thought of the assembly. She is a woman of worth, and this works out in localities.

W.J.Y. It would imply that our exercises and thoughts are towards the Lord -- not on selfish lines.

J.T. Quite.

Ques. Does He give something to each individual to keep?

J.T. Here it is the assembly itself. It works out through individuals, but I think that wherever the person is who has the thing, He would accredit it to the company. The address to Philadelphia would prove that.

Ques. Would this reflect what is in the Lord's mind?

J.T. Quite. The heart of her husband safely trusts in her. You do not hold anything back from your wife. "The heart of her husband". If you take the Romish system, it has proved faithless to Christ. The most precious things that were committed have been allied with idolatry. She had been trusted, but she betrayed the trust. The most precious thought, i.e., the Lord's supper, is allied with the most idolatrous practices. She has not kept her trust. Many other things, too, which are strictly right in the abstract, are connected with what is bad.

W.J.Y. Do you think the root of that lies in the lack of general exercise?

J.T. I am sure it does.

W.J.Y. I think everywhere we feel the need of stressing that. There is such a readiness for some to think they have not much to do, and to look to a few to keep things going.

J.T. What is suggested in the woman of worth is that it is the company moving as one person; as the Lord addresses Philadelphia, all is accredited to the company. "She doeth him good, and not evil, all the days of her life". It is a very great challenge to us here as to whether we have been always doing

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good to the Lord, or whether we have done Him any damage. Whether we have dishonoured His name, or interfered with the work of God in the company we are connected with. It challenges our hearts. "She doeth him good, and not evil, all the days of her life".

E.B. That exercise should be in connection with every movement in the different spheres in which we live.

J.T. Quite. You may do Him harm in your business, and in the family.

Ques.. Is that why the apostle Paul used the words, "I beseech you" (Romans 12:1)?

J.T. You are to present your bodies. You are given up unqualifiedly. How easily we may do Him harm by not falling into line with what He is doing in the company! The most fruitful source of harm lies in insubjection. It is quite impossible to have an organism spiritually without subjection, so that we are enjoined to be subject one to another in the fear of Christ. Not only subject to the Lord, but to one another in His fear, otherwise we are not in the organism. We are deranging things.

Ques. Is that where authority comes in in connection with what you were saying on Saturday? The twelve were with the Lord.

J.T. Yes. It says the assembly is subjected to Christ. That is the normal position of the assembly -- she is subject to Christ. Without subjection all these things are impossible.

Ques. Supposing a brother makes a demand on me that I do not feel happy in fulfilling. I may think the demand is not right, and I might not be free to do it?

J.T. It would become apparent if a suggestion is made, or a demand as to your personal work, whether it is of God or otherwise.

W.J.Y. Brethren, as such, are not often wrong.

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J.T. No. They usually have the mind of God, and, therefore, in this epistle much is made of subjection. In fact, the whole book of Proverbs is worked out on that line, because it is really "the kingdom of the Son of his love" (Colossians 1:13). It is worked out in one in whom the love of God is, so that authority is placed in the book of Proverbs, where it is least irritating. It is placed in One who addresses us as "sons". He has the affection of the Father. But there must be subjection.

E.B. The thought of subjection is connected with the figure of the woman in Proverbs. All that she does is in the light of what her husband is here.

J.T. Yes. In Ephesians those in a position of subjection -- wives and children and servants -- are especially taken account of, because those who are in subjection are most likely to be acted upon by the devil. So the husband is to love the wife, and the father is not to provoke the child, or the master the servant. They are to be considerate, so as to bring about subjection, and shut out the enemy. Where subjection is required the one who is to be subject is apt to be provoked, so that the utmost care is to be exercised in order to avoid undue provocation.

W.C. What is the spiritual meaning of verse 23? "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land".

J.T. That is the general result. "When he sits among the elders of the land" is a millennial suggestion. That is the general result of her virtue and industry. Christ is known. He is known in the assembly, but in the details you have what is most practical. "She seeketh wool and flax". Things that may be needed may not be just available. They are somewhere, however. They may not be right to hand, so that special exertions are needed, and she seeketh them. If a certain commodity is needed she is not content -- she will get it.

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J.W. Barnabas did that when he went to find Paul. He felt there was a need at Antioch. Did Barnabas recognise that Paul was in advance of him in spirituality?

J.T. I think he knew that Paul was the man for what was needed at Antioch.

J.W. The outcome of Paul's work was that they were called "Christians" there on account of the heavenly teaching.

J.T. Yes, they took on the Lord's name there. There they were called Christians. Her husband was known in the gate there. The wool and the flax would be 'raw material'. Saul had to labour a year in Antioch before he was commissioned.

J.S. Is the wool to produce the warmth amongst the saints?

J.T. Yes, and the flax produces sobriety. Too much wool would produce too much heat, and too much flax would produce too much cold, but a combination maintains a right atmosphere. You are not unduly exhilarated, and you are not unduly depressed. These are two commodities which are of great importance in the mind of the virtuous woman. She seeks for them. In the assembly there is that which takes account of raw material. All young Christians are raw material. They might as well accept it. They have to go through the processes, in order to be of value to the Lord's people. Then it says, "She ... worketh willingly with her hands", etc. She knows how to develop these two commodities.

H.W. There is a tendency with a local company, whilst we are all very much alive to the conditions and the lack, to be occupied with the conditions instead of putting our hands to it.

J.T. The first thing is to get the raw material. You may have the most skilled spinner and weaver, but a meeting will necessarily die out and disappear unless the raw material is available. Raw material

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is found by evangelisation. You go out and get souls, and then you get them set to work, so that there is the product which is needed.

H.D. "She is like the merchants' ships: she bringeth her food from afar".

J.T. The raw material is what every meeting needs, otherwise there can be no continuance, because, in ordinary circumstances, old people pass away -- the Lord takes them; and I think a good illustration of raw material is Saul of Tarsus. I do not know of a better. The Lord took him up, knowing him before, and He sought him. She sought out the wool and the flax. He was subject to the Lord. He was what you might call potentially what the saints needed just then. The twelve had worked, and Stephen had done his work, and Philip was working, and others were working, but this one was needed, so that the Lord brings him down. He is not really raw material fitted for the process until the Lord has to do with him. It is a sovereign act of the Lord's. The Lord does no more; He brings him down; he falls to the earth. He is subject. He says, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?" The Lord did not tell him. He had to learn from the brethren first, so that Ananias says, "Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). He gets the Spirit, but he needs more than that. He has to wait for a considerable time before he is actually employed in a formal way, because he had to go through the needed education.

W.J.Y. Would you say the Lord makes the raw material, and we have to seek it?

J.T. Yes.

H.W. Is the seeking done by the evangelist?

J.T. Yes.

H.W. And the other part of the work is in the assembly?

J.T. Yes. Isaac smells Jacob, and he says, "See,

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the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed" (Genesis 27:27). That is the potentiality of a young brother or a young sister. The crop is not there yet, but you discern the possibility of it.

Ques. Does not the fine linen come from the flax?

J.T. As a fabric, linen is intended as a type of what is sobering, because it is cooling. The priests had to wear linen fabric next their flesh, as they were not to be excited naturally. A priest has to be very careful that he does not allow natural excitement. The use of linen in the house of God is a type of that which sobers us. He was not to wear a woollen garment.

H.W. It would encourage us to take account of the young people as so much raw material for the assembly.

J.T. Yes, and "She is like the merchants' ship: she bringeth her food from afar". She goes further away. I suppose it is what comes from heaven. The bringing in of the food is by prayer. You get things from a long way by asking for them. Ministry may be had by praying for it. "She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens". Everyone is provided for. There is no one omitted. The maidens know what they are to do for the whole day. They get the prospectus for the day. You are struck with the order and vigilance of it. Everything is in order. "She planteth a vineyard". There is something now for God.

C.S.S. Do we get that in John 15?

J.T. That is the suggestion. It is for God. A vineyard. She acquires a wider sphere of operation, and it is for God. She planteth a vineyard. The wine is to make glad the heart of God and the heart of man.

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W.G. The wool and the flax was for the household and the company, but this is for God.

J.T. God does not need the wool and the flax. We do, but He needs the wine of joy which gladdens the heart -- the yield of worship from our hearts by the Spirit.

W.J.Y. And He cannot get it apart from spiritual energy on the part of the saints.

J.T. And her candle never goeth out. She is a light always. The assembly is always a light here.

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A NAIL IN A SURE PLACE

2 Corinthians 1:19,20; 1 Chronicles 22:3; 2 Chronicles 3:9; Isaiah 22:23,24; Ecclesiastes 12:11

You will observe in these passages in the Old Testament the occurrence of the word 'nail', or 'nails' and, no doubt, you will assume I have in mind to connect the thought expressed in them with the passage in the letter to the Corinthians, which I read, because I would seek to show how the things of God are secured and held together divinely.

I wish to say at the outset that the idea of the nails enters into the truth of resurrection. There can be no holding things, save on that principle, and so I read from the second epistle to the Corinthians because the apostle speaks there of having preached among the Corinthians the Son of God. There had been, indeed, a threefold presentation of the Son of God to the Corinthians by Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus, suggesting to us that the apostle and the other preachers were concerned that the truth of the Son of God should be firmly in their souls, and Paul's preaching of the Son of God was on the principle, as we read in Romans 1:4, that He had been "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead" as it should read. Not simply His own resurrection. The declaration began to take form in His ministry in the raising of the widow's son at the gate of Nain, in Luke, and in the raising of Lazarus, in John. In these instances we have witnesses of His power as the Son of God. But then He invaded death Himself. We see in His emotions, His groan, at the grave of Lazarus, His deep resentment of death in its sway over the people of God, and so, in order to follow up that deep groan, and those tears at Bethany, He invaded death, and, as we read, "annulled" it. He came out of it. He

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came out of it in such triumph that He has led captivity captive (Ephesians 4:8). He holds in His hand that power now. He has wrested it from Satan, who had it, and He holds it in His hand. So, if any one of the family of God die now, as we speak, he is put to sleep "through Jesus", so that the people of God, knowing the Son of God by the preaching to which Paul refers, are no longer in dread of death, or in dread of him who had the power of it. The Lord Jesus, having come out of death, is in supreme control of the forces of evil. He presents Himself to us, indeed, as "he that has the key of David" (Revelation 3:7) and again as he who has "the keys of death and of hades" (Revelation 1:18).

And so you have at the outset in these passages the suggestion of a nail; that is, One great enough to sustain in His own Person every divine weight. In the Old Testament you have the thought in the book of Zechariah that from God comes the nail; (Zechariah 10:4). The corner-stone, and the nail, and the battle-axe, and the ruler, all proceed from God. But I will confine myself to the nail, so that we may see how divine purposes, and divine thoughts and principles, are all gathered up and secured in Christ risen from the dead. It is impossible that one of them can slip. Not an iota, as He says, of the law can pass away unfulfilled. Not a counsel of God can remain unfulfilled. Not a promise of God can remain unfulfilled. Whatever promises there have been "in him are yea, and in him Amen", as we read in 2 Corinthians 1:20. And then, beloved friends, not only these abstract things, but all the persons that have been in divine counsel are hung on Christ, so to say. He is great enough to sustain every one of us. A]l vessels, great and small, as we read in Isaiah 22, are hanging on this great Person, whom God has fastened as a nail in a sure place (Isaiah 22:25). All the glory of His Father's house, whatever thought came out in David, whatever came out in Jacob, Isaac or Abraham,

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is secured infallibly in that Person. And then, as I said, every vessel is hanging on this great Person. And we are all vessels. The youngest believer here is a vessel -- as we read in Romans, a vessel of mercy (Romans 9:23). Every one of us, whether great or small, old or young, is a vessel of mercy fitted for glory. Think of that! Think of the fact that God has taken us up in mercy -- "according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). And He has fitted us for glory. Each one of us will shine in that day, when God displays His vessels. There will be none to dishonour. They will be all pure gold. The dross having been removed, there are vessels for the refiner, so that every one of us will be there as the fruit of the sovereign mercy of God, fitted, as it says, for glory. We shall not be in the least degree out of place, nor shall we feel ourselves out of place. We shall shine as fitted for glory.

And so that great vessel, the aggregate of us all, the Holy City, New Jerusalem, comes down from God out of heaven, having His glory. Great as she is, corresponding in every way with divine requirements, even she hangs on Christ. We would not have it otherwise. He who upholds all things by the word of His power, upholds us, and He upholds us in the aggregate. Every vessel is hung on Christ, as it says in this passage in Isaiah. So we see, dear brethren, what a wonderful Nail Christ is. What a Nail from God! In due time the Son became a Nail. One appears who is capable of taking up all these things and bringing in the yea of God, and the Amen of God, in regard to every one of them.

I wanted to show how God intends that there should be correspondence with this great Nail in every one of us. One of the greatest things in the Scriptures is the principle of correspondence with Christ. But before that principle is taken up, we are impressed with His personal ability to hold everything.

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I speak in considerable measure for the young, because, unless young people get this thought into their souls, they will not be equal to the process of which I intend to speak. You understand from the very outset (indeed, the gospel presents it to us), that God has got this great Nail in view, and that, in virtue of His power, every divine thought and every person purposed for blessing is sustained by Him. Every thought of God, as I said, and every person in the purpose of divine love, hangs on Christ. So that we start with the assurance in our souls of the security of everything as hung on this great divine Nail, which is "in a sure place".

The world has its nails. I speak of them just for a moment, for the principle of a nail appears, according to Scripture, in the world. This principle of binding things so that they should be held securely is in the world. But what can be held securely when the nail is not in a sure place? However great a man may be -- and the world accords its honours according to man's estimate -- if he be a man who can conquer and bind together countries into an empire, and hold them, yet if he is not in a sure place, what of it? Take any of them -- they seem marvellous as they stalk about the earth, but presently they are gone. Death overwhelms every one of them, and their great structures necessarily come down, for the obvious reason that they are not in a sure place. How can any mortal man be sure? Uncertainty marks man from the very outset, to say the least, and so every great structure that has been reared up by man has come down. He himself comes down. In our own times we have seen empires come down. You see there is nothing sure, whereas the Nail in the sure p]ace, that is, Christ the Son of God, declared to be such by resurrection, is beyond the power of any disintegrating thing, of any corrupting thing, of any thing that causes decay or weakness, and,

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hence, the immense importance of having the light of the Son of God in our souls. Pilate says to the Jews, "Go your way, make it as sure as ye can" (Matthew 27:65). So they made the sepulchre as sure as they could. They sealed the stone, but next morning the stone was rolled away, and the sepulchre was empty. Such is the irony of God when man pretends to secure things. They had to make it good by a lie. The world seeks to hide its shame and weakness by falsehood. The guards were corrupted. They were bribed to tell a lie, and the lie became circulated among the Jews that the disciples stole the Lord away, and it became current, so that the world, in its effort at securing things, has had to have recourse to falsehood to save its respectability. But what a sham! Think of an effort to set aside this momentous fact -- the resurrection of the Son of God! Think of the endeavour to set that aside by a lie! It cannot be set aside. It stands out. It is preached among the Gentiles, and it stands in the souls of thousands of people. Every thought of God is secured in that Nail in the sure place -- Christ risen from among the dead.

I wanted to show the principle of correspondence with this Nail, because the divine thought is, as we see in the tabernacle and in the temple, and, indeed, in the physical creation, that things are to be held together. It is marvellous how the physical system is held. We know little or nothing of it. The cleverest scientists know little or nothing of it. I am not pretentious in saying that. I know it is so, that the physical system, which we call the universe, and what in Scripture is designated as "the worlds", was framed by the word of God. No one understands it, except those who have faith. By faith we apprehend that the "worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3). There they stand; these bodies move with precision, perfectly held together, having come from the divine hand. And so, in connection with

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the tabernacle, which, indeed, is a figure of the universe -- there was one tabernacle, for God is one, and He works on that principle, and His thought is to work out in His people that principle, and if I am to be in that, obviously I must be subject. "He spoke", it says, "and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast" (Psalm 33:9). I suppose the speaking conveys the wisdom in which everything was made, and the commanding is the authority of God, in which everything is held. So that, if I am to be in this great system which is in mind, this great moral system, obviously I must be governed by those two things -- the word and the commandment. If I am not subject, I shall miss the word, for the word is the unfolding of the mind of God. The commandment is the authority, and we are all obligated to submit to the authority of God. There can be no working out of the thoughts of God, save as we are subject to the authority of God. And so our Lord Jesus Christ is the great Pattern in this respect. He had the law in His heart. The law represents the authority of God, and He had it in His heart. He delighted to do the will of God, and, in doing the will of God, He unfolded to us the mind of God. He spoke. So, as I said, God intends to bring every one of us into accord with Christ. I confine myself to the thought of the nail, because my purpose is that we may seek to hold things together according to God. Every one of us has a function in that respect. "Every wise woman buildeth her house, but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands" (Proverbs 14:1). We are either building or we are plucking down -- "Every wise woman buildeth her house". So the great thing is to be in accord with wisdom. Wisdom has come out in Christ, and we are to be the children of wisdom, and in regard to holding things together I want just to show how God works to bring us into accord with Christ as the Nail.

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As to the passage in 1 Chronicles, by comparing it with 2 Chronicles 3:1, what you will see is that David had the site of the house shown him. David bought the place. He bought land, not only large enough for the site of the temple, but he bought the "place". He secured plenty of room for the work, and, having the site shown him, he says, "This is the house of the Lord", this is where the house of the Lord is to be. And so he provides iron in abundance for the nails. He did not make the nails; it was for Solomon to do that. David represents the kingdom. The kingdom is contributory to the house. The raw material comes in through the kingdom, and in the kingdom the processes proceed which prepare us for the house. I only wish to draw attention to David's great thought here. He prepared iron in abundance for the nails -- nails for the doors and the gate, and nails for the joinings.

You see how the Spirit of God suggests things to us. In that which God is building, as it is here in testimony at the present time, doors and gates are most important, and these should be firmly bound and held. Not on human principles, but on divine principles. So that, in admitting persons, we understand that the end of all flesh has come before God, and we do not respect persons in admitting believers to the house of God. They are confronted with what is stable, and, as one is admitted, there is discrimination, for we are not to admit anything inconsistent with the house. 1 Chronicles 21 shows what it cost to acquire this site. The sword of Jehovah was sheathed there. It can only be sheathed through a sacrifice, and that sacrifice was Christ. There can be nothing in the house inconsistent with the death of Christ, and so, on entering, there was in evidence the stability of things as set up in Christ in resurrection.

I believe every young person should be impressed with the stability of things. The house of God is

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not common, it is dignified. If you come into it, you are coming into a place of privilege -- a place of dignity, where power is, and where love is; but the doors of the gates were well supplied with nails.

And then the "joists". I suppose they were the things by which the whole house was held together, and made one. These also were supplied, so that, as one enters the house, one is impressed with the stability of everything -- that we are not holding things on human principles, or on partisan lines, or on lines of personal preference. We are in the house on the ground of the death and resurrection of Christ. Worldly principles are out of place, and everything impresses you with the idea of security. And how can there be security except on the ground of resurrection, whence man, after the flesh, is repudiated altogether? The Corinthians were not recognising these doors and these joists in admitting foreign elements -- elements of evil and disintegration, which they were doing. And so the apostle brings in this great Nail. He says, "My preaching was of the Son of God". They were not in accord with that preaching; they were recognising men they were acting by men. There were parties, and preferences, and these things showed that leaven was working.

In the second book of Chronicles we come to Solomon. The first book is David. He made provision for the house; not only the provision, not only the site of the house -- the provision for it in the raw -- but the pattern of the house. David had everything by the Spirit, he says, and he gave to Solomon the pattern of the house, of the porch, of the treasuries, of the upper chambers, of the inner chambers, and of the place of the mercy-seat. He gave him the pattern, and so, in preparing the inner house, the house of the mercy-seat (what was called the Holy of Holies), gold is in great evidence.

But I want to speak about the nails only. It says,

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"The weight of the nails was fifty shekels of gold". Now, in iron, you have strength. David prepared iron in abundance for the nails, and what is more needed, beloved brethren, than strength in seeking to maintain the house of God -- its principles -- in an adverse world? David knew that the power of evil had to be contended with, and he prepared iron in abundance, so that the doors and the gates and the joists should be firmly held, and that they should stand. The people of God should stand against the admission of evil principles. How one could enlarge on this, even in occurrences of our own times, but the time does not admit of it. I want to come to the gold. Solomon is in control of abundance of gold, so that even the nails are of gold. How one would covet being one of those nails! It is quite obvious that we have not here exactly a type of Christ, but, rather, a type of the saints. It is not only now a question of strength (which is of immense importance, surely), but of the intrinsic value of each saint as under the eye of God holding the truth in love, as we had this afternoon. That, I apprehend, is the gold. It is the product of heaven. It is of God. Love is of God. Gold, I apprehend, suggests what is of God. We have known love, beloved friends, "because he laid down his life for us" (1 John 3:16). It is as if the thing were not really known until Christ died. That precious metal has come out and shone in the death of Christ, and hence the formation of the saints in love. We are taught of God to love one another. How delightful under the eye of God, as His people are seen, not only loving one another, but holding the truth in love! We may love at the expense of truth, but, as born of God, we hold the truth in love.

That, I apprehend, refers to the nails of gold; God would bring us into correspondence with Christ in that way. The love of God is set out in Christ,

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in that He laid down His life for us, and hence the pattern, so that every saint is conformed to Christ. Another thing about divine love is that it goes beyond what is local. Indeed, the house is a pattern, not of what is local, but of what is general. The house of God is never connected with the local assembly. It is a general thought, and if I am to be in it as a nail, my outlook must be universal; so that, in all lowliness, and meekness, and long-suffering, I endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. There, I think, you have the nail of gold. The unity of the Spirit is not a local idea, it is a general idea. There is one body and one Spirit, and maintaining the unity of the Spirit is a nail of gold; it is holding things for God. It is in the Spirit that things are held according to God, and so you find the advanced Christians that are contemplated in Colossians and Ephesians, are said to love all saints. The Colossians had loved in the Spirit. The only mention of the word 'Spirit' in Colossians is just there; Colossians 1:8. To love in the Spirit is to love like God. You are wholly outside the range of national or local feeling, or personal preference. You love all the saints. You love those begotten of God because you love God, and it is in this way, as I understand it, that the nails of gold are holding things for God at the present time. How great a thing to be formed out of gold! Formed of divine love -- forged, as I may say, in the death of Christ, for these nails issue forth in that way, and thus we hold things for God. We are as concerned about the interests of Christ in Europe as we are about them in Australasia. We love all the saints, because we know that all are essential to what God is doing.

There is just the one thought more, and that is the nail of Ecclesiastes. It says, "The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters

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of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd", Ecclesiastes 12:11. Now we are not dealing with persons, but with words, and I need not enlarge on this, because it is obvious to all how words as received universally, words coming from the wise, principles set out in right words, bind the saints together, and hence we hold the truth, as it is said, "until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man" (Ephesians 4:13).

There are a variety of gifts, according to the chapter in Ephesians (chapter 4). They are all given of one Shepherd, and they have all got their words of wisdom. The Lord knows those to whom He gives gifts. The vessels are prepared. There is but one Shepherd, and He thinks of the sheep, and He has ascended on high, having led captivity captive. He gives gifts. He gives "some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers ... with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith" (Ephesians 4:11 - 13). That is, we have the unity of the Spirit, and we also have the unity of the faith, because the words of the wise do not conflict. They are all from one Shepherd. They are all wise. They all have words of wisdom, and, taken together, they present the truth, and so the unity of the faith. We have the whole truth. Let us see to that, for the unity of the faith involves agreement in regard to the truth. It was never the Lord's intent that His people should agree to differ. It is a false principle. It is not according to God. It is a human principle. The principle of God is agreement in the Spirit, and the unity of the faith, for there is only one faith -- as it says, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:5). There are not two faiths, and so God intends, by the words of the wise, to hold His people in the truth. We love the persons, but we love the truth, and we hold the truth

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in relation to the persons. So that, as it says, they are "nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one Shepherd". The masters of assemblies, I suppose, are those who form local companies, who would be responsible for them. Indeed, the word 'preacher' in this book is a former of assemblies, for every preacher has in view that assemblies should be formed. His work is not finished until assemblies are formed, but, when formed, assemblies have to be guided and controlled by wise principles, and hence the words of the wise are as goads. I believe the goad touches the conscience, which is a most important service, for if our consciences are not touched by the words, they do not become nails -- they are not fixed in our souls. As the Lord says to Saul. "It is hard for thee to kick against goads" (Acts 26:14). Our consciences must come into action. Saul's conscience was evidently aroused, but he was kicking. How often it is that, as the word comes to our consciences, we resist it. If we refuse it, it does not become a nail; we cannot hang our thoughts on it, and rest in it. Thus the saints are held together by right words and principles.

And so, dear brethren, the ministry that the Lord gives is so important. Not that we are to swallow it without chewing the cud; we are to be like the Bereans, who searched the scriptures diligently to see whether these things are so, and if they are so, hold them as nails. You can hang your thoughts and affections on them, and rest securely in them; so that you know where you are. You are no longer a babe tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine; you are a man, and able to hold the truth in love.

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THE FAMILY OF GOD

Proverbs 30:4,11 - 14; John 1:11 - 13

I have in mind to speak about the family of God, which, as you will see by the passage in the first chapter of John, is composed of those who receive Christ. God makes Christ the test in every connection, and those who receive Him belong to His family. It was in His mind from the beginning to have a family, and so with that family in view, as the descendants of Noah had decided to turn away from Him, He blessed Shem. He curses one family in the announcement of Noah, and He blesses Shem, because in Shem there should arise a family suitable to Him, Abraham being in the direct line of Shem; so God blesses Shem, and in calling out Abraham (whose name signifies, Father), He speaks of him later as "a wholly right seed". God intending to have a family wholly according to His own mind, He appeared to Abraham, we are told, which was a very great distinction, and subsequent developments bring to light the import of that appearing, for we have in Abraham a reflection of the heart of God in regard to his family. He, we are told, dwelt with Isaac and Jacob in tents, the heirs with him of the same promise. We have thus an indication, beloved friends, that God intends to dwell with His family. Hence how great a thing it is to belong to the family of God!

Now the book of Proverbs, in the passages I read, brings out the thought of a divine generation. It brings it out in the form of an enquiry, and then it calls attention to other generations that are very far from being divine. The Lord Jesus, when here, as you remember, in addressing the Jews, spoke of them as of their father, the devil -- a terrible word, as employed by Him who knew. He, indeed, speaks in

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spirit here in classifying the generations of mankind. He heads them up in four connections -- four characteristics -- and in dwelling on these it is for each of us to determine whether we belong to these four generations, or whether we, as receiving Christ, belong to the divine generation.

You see the writer of this chapter has the peculiarity of being an enquirer. The book is generally authoritative, but an honest enquirer is a man that is sure to get light. And so in enquiring as to who ascended and who descended, and who his son is -- what his name is -- he is led to take account of things on the earth among men as they are. It is well that we should, as it were, look into the result of this remarkable man's observations, for he goes beneath the veneer of society. He looks down below the ordinary civilities and amenities that mark the society of this world, and he gets to the root of things, and classifies his observations under four distinct heads. For these generations are not compatible with Him who ascended and who descended -- He it says, gathers the wind in His fists and binds the waters in a garment. If such a one as this has a generation, that generation must be in accord with Him; and we believers in Christ, we receivers of Christ, have come into the family of Him who ascended. It is a question, beloved friends, of the revelation of God, and that is what I want to present for a moment, for no word can be regarded as a gospel address which fails in bringing out in some sense God, as revealed in Christ. As we apprehend Him thus revealed, we have some understanding of the family that He brings into existence and recognises. So the word is, "Who has ascended up into heaven?" Is there any of the sons of Adam that can do that? And is there any who can descend, and who can bind the wind in his fists, as it says, who can bind the waters in a garment! Not one of all

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the sons of Adam's race correspond with this. We are in the presence here, beloved friends, of God -- of God in Christ. He who said, "I ascend", and, again, "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Ephesians 4:9).

God has come out in Christ. The One who ascended, descended. The ascension denotes His power -- His dignity; His descending denotes His love. Would that I could speak to you of the love, beloved friends, that led Him to descend! How far did He descend? Into the lower parts of the earth, we are told. How low? To the very centre of the earth. You say, 'Impossible: geologically impossible!' Let no one speak thus: as the Lord Jesus Himse]f says, "As Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). Into the very heart of the earth He went -- to the very lowest point, in His love. Would that I could convey, as I said, to you, the love that led Him to descend! Not only to express His own love for us, but the love of God! For we read, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son" (John 3:16). In giving Him up, you see, He gave Him up to go down to the depths. Think of what it was to give His beloved Son -- His only beloved Son -- that He should go into the heart of the earth. Well might the sun cease to shine! Well might darkness cover the face of the earth as Jesus suffered, in His love, the full penalty of sin! "It became God", we read, "in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10). Think of those atoning sufferings! He went down to the heart of the earth. No one can go lower.

But then not only did He descend, but He "gathered the wind in his fists". I wish you to dwell for a moment on this remarkable figure. It refers to the power of Satan. The wind is a symbol of Satanic

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influence (not always, I admit). But it is so used. You remember in the lifetime of our Lord Jesus Christ here, as He was asleep in the boat, the wind arose and the sea became agitated. It refers to Satanic power, which would fain have engulfed Him and the boat and all in the waters. He arose, we are told, and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, "Silence;" and those who witnessed the occurrence said, "Who then is this?" (Mark 4:39,41). Think of the power of the Son of God, as it is said here, He "gathered the wind in his fists". As one may say, He can control and hold firmly the power of Satan, and not only the power of Satan but the power of death. In regard to Satan, we read, He has annulled him through death, who had the power of death.

And then as it says here, "who hath bound the waters in a garment?" All this refers to what the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished. He has exhausted the judgment of God, beloved friends, in descending. As a consequence He has limited the power of Satan, and He gathers the waters in a garment. Death itself is controlled. And so now the gospel is appearing, and standing here tonight I am, thank God, in the light of all these things. I know that the Lord holds Satan's power in His fists, or we should not be here tonight; and, moreover, I know that He has death in His hand, so that it cannot be used against His people, save at His pleasure. We who belong to the family of God, die in the Lord. We are put to sleep, if we die ere He comes, through Jesus. It is a remarkable fact that, whilst the immediate descendants of Adam are all said to have died, however long one lived, even to 969 years, it says, "he died -- he died". Yet, when we come to the generation of Shem, we read of the longevity of each patriarch, but the expression, "he died", is omitted. The Spirit of God does not emphasise death in the line of the family. In John 11, where death occurs with a

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member of the family, Jesus proceeds to render it null and void. There is no death, beloved friends, in the family of God. Death has no power there. If we die, as we speak of it, we are put to sleep "through Jesus". How precious for us! We can well understand it. He in His love went down to the very heart of the earth for us -- where destruction and death were; yea, where, as we are told, the Jordan was driven back. "What ailed thee, O thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou wast driven back?" (Psalm 114:5). All the power that disposed of these enemies is available to the family, and, as I said, if one of the family die, like Lazarus, Jesus is available. He is at the graveside. He first places Himself beside the mourners, and then He is at the graveside, and He calls Lazarus out.

Well now, you see it goes on to say, "what is his name, and his son's name?" Now we arrive at the Son, for that is what comes to light, beloved friends. He is declared -- Jesus is declared to be Son of God, with power by resurrection from among the dead. God's name has been fully vindicated in all that; but now we have the Son. We can tell now: it is no longer a question of mystery, the Son of God has come to light, beloved friends, through resurrection. He is declared to be the Son of God, with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from among the dead. That is His Son's name. And the Son brings in the family.

Jesus would say to you tonight -- He would impress upon you tonight -- that He thought of you when He died. The Son of God, beloved friends, is come on God's account, and His purpose is to bring in a family according to God. Are you prepared tonight for the proposal that He would make to you? He wants you. You see it is said in Genesis 14:21 that the king of Sodom wanted the persons. He says to Abraham, "Give me the persons, and take the

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goods to thyself". That will not do at all, beloved friends. The Son of God is come and He wants persons. He has given Himself for you and He wants you. He intends to bring you into the family of God. What an immense thing -- what an immense proposal! But then, as I said, these other generations must be exposed. For God does not intend that His family should be found perpetually in relation to these other generations. And so the prophet here proceeds (this is a prophecy) to call attention to four distinct generations, and these generations, as we shall see, I hope, are not of God. They are not of God. Look at the first of them.

There is a generation, it says, that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. Is there the least suggestion of a divine generation -- a divine family -- of divine traits in that? Disobedience to parents is a mark of the present time. Are there children here tonight who are in any way marked by this? It says, they curse their father and do not bless their mother. We have arrived at apostasy -- apostasy has set in, and one of the marks of it is disregard of parents.

I would speak to young people here, for God has placed authority where it is least felt. It is least felt in those who love you. It is easier to recognise authority in your parents than in others, for they love you. Hence the action of the will in cursing the father and not blessing the mother. But then, he proceeds, "A generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness". These are not children. These comprise, alas! millions. A generation pure in their own eyes and not washed from their filthiness -- pure in your own eyes -- of what value is that? Do you know that you have to meet God's eyes? Do you know that in the final analysis you have to meet God? And He is of purer eyes, we are told, than to behold iniquity. How, then, do

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you hope to stand before those eyes? We read of the eyes of the Son of God as a flame of fire. How shall you stand that gaze? You are pure in your own eyes, and you are not washed from your filthiness. Oh! I say, if there is such an one here, let me speak to you. You have filthiness, and you see amiss. You are blinded by your own self-importance and religiousness. You do not see as God sees, that all your righteousnesses are as filthy rags, as the prophet says. As Job said when he heard God, "I am vile" (Job 40:4). When he heard Him speak even, he said he was vile; and when he saw Him, he said, "I abhor myself" (Job 42:6).

I call upon you tonight, in the name of God, to abhor yourself. God calls upon you to abhor yourself -- to be foolish no longer. You are vile, and yet you are pure in your own eyes. You are not cleansed from your filthiness. God calls upon you to judge yourself. He has the means of cleansing. He has opened a fountain of cleansing for you in the blood of Jesus, which cleanseth us from all sin.

And then, again, it says, "There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up". They are full of pride -- they are not on the level of ordinary men and women. Pride is perhaps the most prominent feature of our nature. We all have to admit it. The pride of life, the little bit of family, the little bit of education, the little bit of money, the little bit of intellect -- we wrap ourselves in all these things, and we look lofty. Oh! how small in the divine eye -- worms really of the dust. Think of the degradation of that word, "Dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 3:19)! Where, then, is the occasion for pride?

And with this generation you have another, as it says, "whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men". You may be sure, where this loftiness exists, that there is lust, and your

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lust will lead you to take away the lives of others. You say, 'Never'. If you get the opportunity, you will not be any different from those who have risen to power in this world on the dead bodies of their fellow men. There is no difference, beloved friends; we are all alike. There is a generation full of pride, and their eyes are lofty, and their teeth as swords, and they would take away the poor from among men -- they have no respect for their fellow men -- they are not in accordance with the Mediator who gave Himself a ransom for all. Jesus gave Himself for the poor whom you are destroying.

You may think I am very scathing, beloved friends, but I am quoting Scripture, and the Spirit of God here exposes to us what we are as born after the flesh, so that we might judge ourselves, and see how we can be right with God, and how we can come into the family of God.

Well now I go on to the gospel of John, just to show you how the family of God came to light. It says that Jesus came unto His own, and His own received Him not. In that statement you see of what little value mere religion is. Unless one is really born again, one will not receive Christ. You say, 'Well, I cannot effect this'. No, God has to work in you. But if you are a Christ rejecter until this present time, then I say you are not born again, and that is a most serious thing. The Lord said to Nicodemus "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7) Do you accept it? If you see these four generations of which I have spoken as wholly unsuitable to God, then you will say something must happen. Yes, beloved friends, something must happen. As the Lord says, ye must be born again. There is to be a wholly new start, and God has to begin, and He does begin.

And so, as I said, He came unto His own -- to the most cultured people on earth -- the most religious people on earth -- the most favoured nation on earth,

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according to the flesh -- sons of Abraham's race -- the Messiah came to them, and walked amongst them -- He performed miracles amongst them -- He made God known amongst them -- never a man spake like Him amongst them, and yet they received Him not.

It may be there are those here who have had like opportunities. You have heard about Christ -- you have heard the gospel, but you have not received Him. I challenge you tonight -- Have you received Him? He is the test. Of what value is all your training -- of what value is all your privilege -- if you are a Christ rejecter? He came to His own, and His own received Him not.

But then it goes on to say, "As many as received him". Most of us here tonight have received Christ. Do we take any credit for it? No. We should never have received Him were it not that we were the subjects of the work of God; but nevertheless we have received Him, and we have come into the family, and we want you to come. There is only one way, and that is by receiving Christ. God presents Christ. He is the test. If you refuse to receive Christ, you do not belong to the family of God. You are outside the family of God.

Let me appeal to you tonight to receive Him. He is presented to you to be received. It says, "As many as received him". We are not told how many. There is plenty of room. There are no limitations. "As many as received him" -- are you prepared to decide now? Is He not worth your consideration?

Most of us, as I said, have received Christ, and we have had the right to take the place of children of God; so that now we belong to a fifth generation, and this generation is to supplant all the others. Not one of the others is to remain on this earth. They are brought to light so as to be condemned -- so as to be convicted and condemned, and room is thus made for the family of God. There is to be no other.

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I am not overlooking that there will be families in God's world. I am speaking now of the one family of which John speaks -- the children of God. They have come to light by receiving Christ. The family has been added to by millions since that day, and, as I said, most of us here tonight belong to it, and we belong to it because we have received Christ.

And so the Spirit of God goes on to say -- to explain -- "which were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God". As having received Christ, it has come to light that we are born of God, so that you can see what a family we belong to! What a family, beloved! And it is open to you tonight to receive Christ, and to believe on His name. And God gives you the right to belong to that family, and we who belong to it already shall greet you. We shall quickly recognise you as worthy members of the family of God. It is simply on the ground of receiving Christ, believing on His name, as it says here. God accords to you the right to belong to the family, and so you escape the consequences of the guilt of these other generations to one of which you surely belong, if not to all.

And so, dear friends, I leave the matter with you. As Jesus came to His own, and His own received Him not, so those who received Him had the right accorded to them of being in the family as the children of God.

Then the same writer says later, "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God" (1 John 3:1) We are known in heaven by that distinctive name as the children of God. It doth not yet appear or is not yet manifested what we shall be, but when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. How will you see Him, sinner? Every eye, we are told, shall see Him. If you die in your sins, you will see Him as a Judge -- you will not be

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like Him, as you are not like Him now. As belonging to these four generations, you will not be like Him then, and all your lofty looks will be dissipated. You will have to take your place, for it says that the small and great will stand before God, and you will see Him.

Our hope is that we shall see Him as He is. You will see Him as He shall be, that is, as a Judge. He is not that yet. We shall see Him as He is -- in all that represents the love of God, and the glory of God -- and we shall be like Him. What a prospect!

May God help you to receive Christ, and thus come into this family!

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Pages 165 - 195 -- "Peter's Service Preparing for Paul's Ministry". Scotland, August, 1925 (Volume 75)

FELLOWSHIP

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3; 2 Corinthians 1:1,2; Galatians 1:1,2; Acts 9:32 - 43; Acts 10:1 - 18

J.T. I think these scriptures would indicate how Peter's ministry prepared the way for Paul's economy; I refer to the action of Peter in going down to Lydda of his own voluntary will, as it would appear he did. It is said that he, passing through all quarters, came down to the saints there and raised up Æneas, saying, "Rise up, and make thy couch for thyself". He anticipated what was to come about through Paul's ministry, namely, that there were to be assemblies formed, and these were to be so constituted that they could make, as it were, their own beds, and he indicates, I think, how the work of God was to proceed. He goes to Lydda as "passing through all quarters"; that is to say, it was in a universal way, but when he goes to Joppa it is as sent for, and the Spirit of God mentions that Lydda was near to Joppa.

In the last incident, his visit to Caesarea, he is sent for by order of heaven, but he also goes under personal direction from heaven. He goes to Lydda; he is sent for from Joppa on account of need there, and he is sent for from Caesarea by order of heaven, and in the latter case he is also prepared by heaven, as I have said, to respond to the invitation accorded to him. He goes to Caesarea, as it were, by way of heaven; he is not called up to heaven like Paul; heaven comes down to him, so he goes to Caesarea, as we may say, by way of heaven, for he is to convey there the mind of heaven, and it seems to me that this section in the Acts which we have read furnishes us with that which underlies the present economy of local assemblies,

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linked up universally on the one hand by such an influence as Peter's, as far as ministry goes, and on the other hand by Paul's ministry.

Paul's first letter to Corinth has a wider bearing than the second. The first is to the "assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". The second is "to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia". Then the letter to the Galatians is addressed, not to the 'saints' in Galatia, but to the assemblies of Galatia, meaning in every instance that what was to exercise authority -- the authority of the Lord -- was the assembly. Others addressed with the assembly would indicate that they should be governed in their localities by the principles set out in the epistles. The apostle distinguishes between what is general and what is local by the pronouns 'we' and 'ye'. "The bread which we break" (1 Corinthians 10:16) is the general thought. Peter's work, I believe, in these chapters indicates what underlies the whole system. Each company is to be able to make its own bed for itself, and if help be needed, the indication is plain enough that it is to be from the neighbourhood of need. They sent for Peter because Lydda was near to Joppa; and if help be needed at a distance, it is by the order of heaven and that has to be made plain. Peter did not claim liberty to go of himself; and he was very explicit in explaining his service at Caesarea when he went to Jerusalem; he showed that the movement was God's, not his. It was a long distance from Joppa to Caesarea, but these distances are of no moment to heaven; the point is whether heaven orders them, and if heaven orders them, this must make it plain. So Peter is very explicit; at Jerusalem he says, "What was I, that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:17). It is God's doing, and if it be God's doing, the saints bow.

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Ques. In what character does he go to Caesarea, as apostle, or brother, or as a man?

J.T. Simply as "Simon, whose surname is Peter". He is sent for. It is one thing to be sent for, but it is another thing to be sent. The idea of an apostle is that he is sent; the idea of being sent for is that I am needed.

G.N. Is it the thought that the ministry given through Peter and Paul would produce right spiritual conditions locally?

J.T. Undoubtedly. In passing through all quarters Peter was, no doubt, guided of the Lord, but it does not say so. He was in accord with what God was about to do -- he was in line with it. He was not standing up for what God had been doing in Jerusalem; there was now a new movement and he discerned it. Saul had been converted and Peter's service was to make way for that, and there was hearty co-operation. At the end of his ministry in the second letter, Peter indicates that he is with the Lord in all that He is doing; so he speaks of "our beloved brother Paul" (2 Peter 3:15). And Paul's writings brought out the assembly's heavenly character and its universal bearing. Peter in the first epistle he writes says, "She that is elected with you in Babylon salutes you" (1 Peter 5:13). He was writing from the east to the dispersion in Asia Minor and he links them all up.

J.B. Regarding what is local, I suppose making your own bed means that there is material there that can adjust its own circumstances?

J.T. Yes, that is the thought; and if help be needed, the universal principle makes every brother available. But Peter is sent for and the Spirit makes it plain that Joppa was near to Lydda.

J.B. How would you recognise a local company as to boundary? I mean as to its position geographically?

J.T. I would look for "two of you", as within

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boundaries actually existing. They would be material God could recognise in the "place"; and heaven is at their disposal. "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:19). Heaven is at their disposal and the Lord is with them.

Ques. If there were two or three in another place, would that constitute another company?

J.T. Yes, that would be another place; but the places are not determined by the saints, they are determined under the government of God.

G.F.M. What would be a man's local responsibility primarily, or where would it be?

J.T. In the place where he lives.

G.F.M. But in the broken state of the church, people have to leave their own place and go to another.

J.T. Well, that would come under the head of general fellowship, but it is quite obvious that the responsibility of such is attached to the company where they break bread.

Ques. Suppose he does not dwell in that place, would he be free to take up the responsibility in another locality?

J.T. "All that in every place". If in any of the places adjacent to Corinth there was a brother, all the injunctions specially directed to Corinth would be taken up by him, and he would be amenable to them as belonging to the assembly there; but if an assembly were formed where he lived, his local responsibility would be in it.

Ques. With regard to what you said about being sent for by a local company where there is need, could that be done now?

J.T. Yes, surely. We ought to be available. It

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is a great matter to balance things rightly, so that we should be preserved from independency -- from congregationalism.

G.F.M. I thought that what you suggested just now was very good, that the regulation comes from the top.

J.T. Yes. In the first instance they sent two men; observe the care. Two men were sent from Joppa to Lydda, and then from Caesarea the angel directed that men were to be sent, and Cornelius seeks out two of his household and a pious soldier. He takes them into his confidence and unfolds to them what has occurred, so that they are able to unfold to Peter the cause of their coming. And when Peter explained to the saints at Jerusalem he tells them that there were six brethren there: "Moreover ... six brethren accompanied me"; so that no stone is left unturned to maintain confidence, to carry conviction and to promote unity. Everything is on the principle of adequate testimony. It is very fine to see this, because it says after Peter's explanation, "And when they heard these things, they held their peace and glorified God, saying, Then indeed God has to the nations also granted repentance to life" (Acts 11: 12,18).

A.R. Did you say that when help was needed at Caesarea, which was a distant place, that it was then there was direction from heaven; but when it was the place that was near it was not a case of necessity for that?

J.T. Well, that is how it is put. It says Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and they sent two men to Peter.

Ques. Does that mean that the meeting nearest to another has a particular interest in it and responsibility in regard to it?

J.T. I think that is suggested. One would not say too much of that as to this particular passage, but there are other passages which show conclusively

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that the principle on which we stand is that of "love thy neighbour as thyself". The direct responsibility is on those that are nearest obviously. In Deuteronomy 21 when a man is found dead in the field, the responsibility attaches to all; then "thy elders" -- the elders of Israel -- are to come forth and "measure unto the cities which are round about him that is slain". Nothing is done until the measurement between the dead man and the nearest city is made, and then the elders of the nearest city take it up. In that passage we get too that the priests are called in, and that shows conclusively that the responsibility attaches to all the saints; we are not congregationalists, we are ready to help. The priestly side is for all the saints, but we operate through the city that is nearest to the place of difficulty.

G.F.M. What would answer today to the man found slain in the field?

J.T. I suppose that primarily it has reference to the Lord. It is the responsibility for the death of the Lord. It would be anything that occurs through violence or hatred. The neck of the heifer has to be broken; it is man's self-will and it has to be met because the land has to be kept pure.

W.R. What is the thought in the field?

J.T. The primary thought is that of the land; the field means that the sin did not actually occur in the city.

W.R. Do you mean it is not in a locality?

J.T. It is near the city, not in the city. There has to be a sacrifice -- the heifer, which has not drawn in the yoke, has to be taken to a rough valley, or watercourse, which was not tilled or sown, and its neck broken. But all these things come within the responsibility of the elders of the city. It is for them to clear the land. All the saints are involved in anything that happens, but divine wisdom places the dealing with the matter in the hands of those near.

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G.F.M. You are not suggesting that one locality can take up and settle the affairs of another?

J.T. By no means. It is in the measurement the obligation of saints generally rests.

J.B. The elders of Israel would have a care over difficulties that might prevail in any city.

J.T. Yes, they would, in a general way.

F.R.B. But their responsibility would be more in the line of defining where the direct responsibility should lie.

J.T. Well, their responsibility remained after they located the city. It is still "in Israel", although now placed in the hands of a certain city. General interest, especially prayer, would continue.

Ques. Would the function of the servant be distinct from the function of the local assembly?

J.T. Surely. General fellowship involves that each one should be available, but the principles in these chapters (Acts 9, 10) should govern us.

J.B. I suppose it would show great weakness for any locality not to be able to make its own bed?

J.T. Yes, but it is right to seek help elsewhere. Here at Joppa they did it in a way that was commendable. They sent two men, and Peter went with them. He did not put them off, but went in their company.

E.C. Would you say that the apostle was called in at Corinth?

J.T. I do not know. He really writes his letter as an apostle. An apostle is not one sent for, he is sent, that is, he goes directly from God.

W.H. So that he has in himself authority apart from any need or condition in the locality.

G.M. Peter's journey would be general; to be sent for would be specific.

A.T. Would it be right for an assembly not able to adjust things itself to send for one?

J.T. I think it is quite right, as I said. If Peter

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has just raised up Æneas he has power; he is a man who can bring in Christ, a man in whom Christ operates, and that is the kind of man to send for. You want a man who can help you. Why should we not be sent for?

Ques. Would it be right to go before you are sent for?

J.T. That would be more apostolic -- more on the line of authority. But wisdom enters into all this, and the Lord guides and makes all plain as we look to Him.

G.F.M. It always involves more exercise to take the initiative.

J.T. In Deuteronomy 21 what is said is, "Thy elders and thy judges shall come forth, and they shall measure unto the cities which are round about him that is slain; and it shall be, that the city which is next unto the slain man, even the elders of that city shall take an heifer", etc. The elders of the city would not act under the direction of the elders of Israel, but on the authority of the word.

T.T. That is dealing with a person whose locality is unknown.

J.T. Yes.

Ques. Was the locality not known when the measurement was made?

J.T. Yes, it was determined when the measurement was made.

J.W. The man who did the deed was not known, but the locality was known.

J.T. There is an element of grace in it, in that the land was cleared even if he is not known. The elders of Israel are not told to tell the elders of the locality what to do; their responsibility is the measurement. The purity of the land is of prime importance, and this is the responsibility of all.

Rem. The elders of the city have a responsibility to act on the word.

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G.F.M. The elders of Israel would lay that on their conscience.

J.T. No doubt they would, but it is not so put; the law was there for both. This chapter (Deuteronomy 21) is the law governing the position. This would be read on such an occasion. The action of the elders of the city would be consequent upon the action of "thy elders" in measuring. They had fixed the responsibility; in doing so, they were acting on the word of God, and that equally applies to the city.

Ques. Would the elders of the city be competent to deal with the moral question?

J.T. According to Corinthians the assembly is formally addressed, and I think it means that it is constituted with authority to deal with local matters, and that that is why it is so addressed. The saints at Corinth are called "the assembly of God" there. Those in every place are listening, as it were, and in listening, they would apply these instructions to their localities.

G.F.M. You do not take from that that the measurement would be to the neighbouring meeting, do you? Suppose the dead man were in one meeting the measurement would not be to another?

J.T. It is a question of fixing the responsibility; if it be a question of leprosy in a house, we immediately look to the man that owns the house. He is the one, and it is he and the priest who deal with that. There is nothing about measurement in Leviticus 14.

Rem. The thing is located there.

J.T. There is no question there of a dead man, but of leprosy. In the first letter to the Corinthians the bearing is universal, but in the second it is provincial -- it is the whole of Achaia. I suppose the saints near would be more affected by the evil than those at a distance.

J.B. Do you suggest that if there be difficulty in a locality, and they are not able to make their own

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bed, the meetings that surround it would take up the matter?

J.T. I think that is right. With confidence we can allow much latitude. But what impresses one in these cases in Acts 9 and 10 is the care taken that everything is done with order. There are two men from Joppa, three men and six men connected with Peter's visit to Caesarea; and all are acquainted, too, with what is going on.

Ques. Is there any great significance in the soldier?

J.T. I think it shows that God can take up men in all professions. Cornelius himself was a soldier.

Ques. Would it suggest training?

J.T. I would not like to bring in that there. It is not a "soldier of Jesus Christ" (2 Timothy 2:3). It is his ordinary profession.

J.McE. Cornelius would have confidence in him.

J.T. Yes, he was a pious soldier. They would have had times together in prayer no doubt. The great thing is to have everything clear. There is something about "men" that is reliable; it says, "Quit yourselves like men" (1 Corinthians 16:13). When you come to matters in the house of God, to difficulties, it is extraordinary how much that is erroneous comes in. You hear this and that reported which are not as stated. It seems to me that the Spirit of God would emphasise the importance of adequate testimony. Peter went back with them to Joppa. He went also with three others to Cornelius.

J.C. The report of the house of Chloe could not be gainsaid.

J.T. Evidently the apostle accepted it.

G.N. What principle does Tabitha represent?

J.T. She was wanting in life.

Ques. Would you say Æneas would be negative and Tabitha positive?

J.T. As to Tabitha, they washed her and put

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her in "the upper room". I think that this indicates that she is found in an environment suitable for spiritual life. Peter puts all out; those affected merely by natural sentiment are put out, and after kneeling and praying, he said, Tabitha, arise, and she sat up and he gave her his hand. He links her with himself. What was in Joppa was linked up with what God was doing. He took her hand. There is a link, a living link, with the divine work. That bears, too, on what was about to happen among the Gentiles. How beautifully these companies are linked up livingly! It is a great thing to covet that. There should be no distance.

G.M. I would like to be clear as to the thought of being sent for. Is the local idea still maintained in that?

J.T. Certainly. You will observe that when Peter was at Joppa, he was in the house of a man called Simon, a tanner. When the emissaries of Cornelius come to him, he invites them in and lodges them; he is acting in the capacity of a local person. It does not say his host lodged them, but that Peter did it as if he were merged in the local company. It is not a question of being a visiting brother; it is a living state of things.

J.McE. A partnership is a very real thing.

J.T. It is indeed.

Ques. Being sent for was a very personal matter, was it not?

J.T. Yes.

G.F.M. The cry from Macedonia would be on the same line?

J.T. Yes.

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LIGHT

Acts 26:15 - 20; Romans 13:12; Colossians 1:12; Ephesians 5:8,9; Philippians 2:14 - 16

These passages, as you will observe, treat of light. The apostle Paul says much about light, and I wish to draw attention particularly to the qualities of the light of which he speaks. John speaks much of light also, connecting it with the Person of Christ -- Son of God -- the Word become flesh and dwelling amongst men, but Paul speaks of it rather in connection with the place whence it came; so that we have in the first passage read his full estimate of the light that shone round him and those who were journeying with him, as he drew near to the city of Damascus whither he was going. The Holy Spirit tells us in chapter 9:3 that it was a "light from heaven", while the apostle himself, speaking to the Jews later (chapter 22:6), says it was "a great light" from heaven, but in speaking to king Agrippa and those with him on the occasion of which we have a record in this chapter, his heart seems moved, and it expresses itself with emphasis in the form of an exclamation. Wherever you have this in scriptural writers, you have movement of heart indicated. Exclamations mean that one is peculiarly touched by the matter in hand, so that we have here, "At midday, O king", and again, "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision". His heart was in it, hence he says it was "a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me". It exceeded all known light in brightness.

Now, I make these remarks, because I intend them to be the basis of all I have to say at this time. The light that shone round about Paul and his fellow-travellers was intended to convey to him, and to us,

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the character of the light that has come to us from Christ in heaven. It exceeds all other light, and it is what may be called 'our' light. Indeed, the quotation in Ephesians 5:14 refers undoubtedly to that remarkable chapter in Isaiah which speaks about Israel's light. The apostle speaks of what is written, "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee". In Old Testament language it is, "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee" (Isaiah 60:1). That word will be spoken to Israel in a coming day; she will be called upon to arise and shine for her light has come -- note, her light -- "thy light is come".

The truth written to the Ephesians corresponds, as developed in the saints, to this great light of which Paul speaks to Agrippa. Ephesians is, as developed by the Spirit in us, a light above the brightness of the sun. The heavenly city will not need the light of the sun or of the moon. God and the Lamb will be there, and they shall be the light thereof. In the interior of that city there will be immediate contact with the Father and the Son, so that the light will exceed all known light. The epistle to the Ephesians, as rightly understood by us, involves that we are already in that light that exceeds all known light -- a light which he mentions shone at midday, meaning that the sun was in its zenith, shining down in its eastern power and brilliancy upon him. Yet the light which shone out of heaven was brighter than that, so that the light that shines, works out in the epistle to the Ephesians as a light for our souls.

I want to show further that when the apostle says, "When we were all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul", we are reminded that we cannot stand upon our feet as natural men and women in the presence of this light. No one then living, perhaps, had more

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light according to man than Saul had, having had every possible educational advantage; advantages, too, from training and from an honourable ancestry. No one in his day, perhaps, possessed more that would qualify to stand upon his own ground, but as the light shone from heaven he says, "We were all fallen to the ground", as if it were what is becoming. It was becoming that he and those with him should fall to the ground in the presence of that light. It is thus, indeed, that we begin to take on the light; but it appears and shines round about those who do not fall to the ground, but who stand up and seek to maintain themselves in the presence of it. John speaks of this, "And the light appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not" (John 1:5).

If I am unmoved in the presence of that light, I expose myself as dark, as it says, "Ye were sometimes darkness"; it is not only that men are dark in their minds, but they are darkness. Every man that refuses to bow to this light is simply darkness. We are either radiating this light, or we are darkness; and standing up in the presence of it, whatever we may be, we are simply darkness. So that the first radiation of that light is in our humbling ourselves as in the presence of it. The Spirit of God makes a point of this, for it lies at the beginning of true progress to Ephesians. We begin by falling down in the presence of the light; all the fancied light I may have had disappears; it is darkness. The more active a man is in his mind apart from the Spirit of God, the more darkening he is. He is not only dark, but darkening. And so Paul says, "When we were all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul". He is now recognised. Heaven takes note of Saul as he takes this attitude.

And then he gets his commission; not indeed yet, save in the principle of it, for he had to go through

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those five years of levitical training, as we all have to, ere he is commissioned formally and sent out in the service. But he says, "Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision". This is an entirely new thing -- a man obedient to the heavenly vision. It is not simply a command, it is a vision -- a vision in the light, beloved. What a scene it was! All fallen! What a spectacle for heaven! Hence a voice in the Hebrew tongue -- his own mother tongue, as we may say -- addressing him by his own name, "Saul. Saul".

Where you find the name repeated twice, heaven is signifying its intense interest in the person, such as "Abraham, Abraham", when he offered up Isaac; "Jacob, Jacob", when he sacrificed to the God of his father Isaac; "Moses, Moses", when he turned to see the burning bush and so "Samuel, Samuel"; and "Saul, Saul". Heaven is intensely interested in this man. He is moving with the light, and as he moves with the light, he receives verbal communications, for the shining of the light is one thing, and verbal communications are another; and these communications had in view that he should be a vessel -- an elect vessel -- to bring others into this great light. And that is what the Holy Spirit is aiming at, to bring us into accord with that light. It takes us outside the range of ordinary religious light in this world. It is above and beyond it; its brilliancy eclipses it. It is scarcely a candle in the presence of the noonday sun, as compared with Ephesians, and all Ephesian light, let me say to the youngest here, is your light. Will you claim your heritage? It is our light.

But then we have to begin on the ground, as I said. And so Romans corresponds with that, and hence the apostle ere closing the epistle calls upon the Roman Christian to take up the armour of light. Armour would be well understood in that great

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military centre. Satan dwelt there; it was the home of darkness, as it is today, and the people of God in the metropolis of the world in that day needed armour. It refers particularly to young believers. Armour is for defence. The young believer is not called upon to attack; he is called upon in this epistle to confess the Lord Jesus Christ. In confessing Him you put on the Lord Jesus Christ; as he says, "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh" (chapter 13:14). Young beginners are extremely apt to compromise, that is, to make some provision for the flesh, but the apostle says, "Make not provision for the flesh", "Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ".

Romans is "the word of righteousness", and one skilled in it has his senses exercised to discern between good and evil -- a most important point for young believers; but we must all begin on the ground. Romans disposes summarily of all our pretensions and it does so with authority, for it is "the word of righteousness". "Therein is the righteousness of God revealed" (Romans 1:17). It is a question of what is right in the sight of God, and it summarily, and with authority, disposes of all human pretension as a matter of right. There is nothing arbitrary about it; it is right. It is the word of righteousness, and young believers as guided by it readily see what is right and what is wrong, and they refuse what is wrong and choose what is right.

These are things that are practical, and in the carrying of them out you put on the armour of light. It is not yet a question of spiritual stature it is more attitude of mind, for God makes allowance for the babe, for the young man, and for the father; He discriminates; so in Romans it is a question of the attitude of your mind. Darkness encircles you in this world. The epistle contemplates you in that scene. It comes to you at every moment, and the

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attitude of your mind is to be your choosing what is right and refusing what is wrong, because you have light and you are protected, for the armour is impenetrable -- darkness has no power against it. You learn what is right and what is wrong, and you choose what is right; you have your armour on, and hence it says, "Let us put on the armour of light". "The night is far spent, the day is at hand"; that is an encouragement. We are to cast off the works of darkness, but to put on in the darkness, in the night, the armour of light.

Now, when we come to Colossians, what we find is not the armour of light, but a transfer from the authority of darkness into the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. I do not need the armour of light there, and so he says, "Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light". You are now brought into the circle and there you partake of the inheritance in light. Think of the brilliancy of the light that shines in the circle where Christ is supreme, the Son of the Father's love, where there is no part dark in any one, but where all are made meet for the partaking of the inheritance of the saints in light! The apostle Paul in mentioning the appearings of Christ after He rose again says, "He appeared to above five hundred brethren at once". What a scene of light! What brilliancy! How wonderful to be made meet for that! And who does it? The Father! The Father operates in connection with the gospel, so as to make us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.

In that circle I am brought into touch with heaven. Colossians develops a circle of light, a circle on earth in entire correspondence with Christ in heaven; so that Christ is everything. I connect it in my own mind with that scene where He appeared to over five hundred brethren at once. A wonderful scene!

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They were all in correspondence with Christ. If there had been one person like Simon Magus whose heart was in the bond of iniquity, how soon it would have been discerned. The power of that light would have forced him out. They were brethren, and brethren, as so mentioned, are according to Christ. They were made fit for sharing the inheritance of the saints in light, and the greatest part of the inheritance is that Christ appears and manifests Himself in the circle of His own. Wonderful thing! That is Colossians.

Now Ephesians is an advance on Colossians. The apostle says, "Ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord". We are now "in the Lord". We apprehend Him where He is in heaven; for if you will recall in the book of Acts, the ministry of the apostle Paul at Ephesus was marked by the word of the Lord (see chapter 19). It was a question of bringing in the Lord, not simply for their subjugation, as in Romans, where it is our Lord Jesus Christ, but for the bringing down of strongholds, and of every high thing that opposes and exalts itself against the knowledge of God. That is the point of Ephesians; the saints are viewed as light in the Lord -- light radiated in the saints viewed as in Ephesians -- according to their position in heaven.

The Lord says, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18). Think of the rapidity of the fall! It refers to the power that was there to eject him, and to deal effectually with the universal lords of the darkness of this world. As apprehending the Lord in heaven I am light, I reflect that light, I see that this world is to come down, that there is power in heaven to bring it down, and that there is nothing in it able to bring me down as I have light in the Lord. Light in the Lord! What a wonderful position! He who upholds the universe is behind me. You are in Him. The article is not there in the

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original. It is "light in Lord". As Lord, He is the embodiment of all authority and deals effectively with the power of darkness. People may think little of Christians, but we are light in the Lord, if we apprehend Ephesians. If we have this light in our souls, we look with scorn at the world and its boasted powers, knowing that in Christ there is power vested to bring it all down. "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27). What can man do with lightning? The coming of the Son of man is in that form and the believer understands it; he is light in the Lord.

Now, in Ephesians you get the aggressive feature; so that we have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. "but rather reprove them". It is no small matter to undertake to reprove the darkness of this world. No one can safely undertake it save the Ephesian Christian, for you must first understand the power that is for you. You may mistake the power that is against you, unless you understand the power that is for you, and you may meet with defeat. There are very few who can rebuke this world, nevertheless there is the testimony; "rather", he says, "reprove them". But then there is the fruit of the light which is in all goodness and righteousness and truth. Whilst we are aggressive and resent the darkness, knowing there is power to deal with it, we are marked by the fruits of the light, that is, we bring in goodness and righteousness and truth.

Now you will have observed that the apostle is so concerned about light in Ephesus that he says more about it in this epistle than in any of the other epistles. It is because he is dealing with the great light. He wants all to be in it. It is the first light that came into his own soul, so he says, "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee" (Ephesians 5:14). If

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there be one here turning his back upon God, and upon Christ, and the saints, this is a word for you. "The Christ shall shine upon thee". The greatest light in the whole universe of God shines upon you. It is all for you; it is your inheritance; you awake into it. Such is Ephesians; we have often sung: "And heavenly light makes all things bright, Seen in that blissful gaze". (hymn).

Now Philippians has a peculiar charm, not that it exceeds Ephesians. It is addressed to the saints in Christ Jesus with the bishops and deacons. The apostle, doubtless, had in his heart his first experience amongst them, and so he speaks of them as "children of God", blameless and harmless, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye shine as lights. He would doubtless remember that his great convert, the jailor, as he was smitten and convicted called for lights -- "having asked for lights", we read (Acts 16:29). I have no doubt that he received the light of the truth in Romans; in due course he was baptised and was moved to show kindness to the apostle; and then he speedily came to the Colossian truth of the Christian circle -- the Father having made him meet to be a partaker of the inheritance of the saints in light, and I have no doubt he came on also into the Ephesian feature of the light. He had called for lights and he got them. He moved in the light, he moved immediately in the light. He spoke respectfully to his prisoners, calling them "sirs", he washed their stripes and set meat before them in his house.

The Philippian company is marked by household light, the light of God reflected in the houses of the saints, and so Paul on leaving went to the house of Lydia. What light would shine in that house! for she had had her heart opened to the things spoken by Paul. All this, well known to the apostle, would be in his heart when he spoke of them as blameless

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and harmless children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world. The word 'shine' is indeed 'appear', "among whom ye appear", and thus is an advance on anything we have had. You will recall the word 'appear' in connection with Christ's star that shone for the wise men of the east. Herod would know when it was appearing. It was His star -- "we have seen his star" (Matthew 2:2) -- and it became a guide to those men from the east. They were wise; not disobedient to the heavenly vision. They moved with heavenly light -- with the star. It was His star and Herod would know when it was appearing. May I ask you as to whether we are appearing?

One can appear now without shame; one is blameless and harmless -- a child of God. One can appear before men in heavenly dress as one of God's children, appearing as a light. I call attention to that word, although 'shine' is a good word. I have no doubt the word 'appear' may be astronomical; it refers to one coming out as a light in the world, not to give out that he is some great one like Simon Magus, but to appear and shine as a blameless and harmless child of God, holding forth the word of life. It is a question of children of God here. In Ephesians we are children of light, in Thessalonians sons of light, as also in John's gospel, but in Philippians it is children of God. "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever" (Daniel 12:3). We are to appear in this dark world as the stars reflecting Christ, and so he says, "holding forth the word of life", and I am sure that that is what the Lord would have us do -- appearing as lights, and holding forth the word of life.

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PEACE

Ephesians 2:14 - 17; Luke 9:51 - 53; Luke 10:5 - 8,20; Luke 11:13

I believe it laid on my mind of the Lord to speak about peace, and to show that it is of heaven, and that its product, a son of peace, is consequently of heaven. You will remember that Luke in recording the circumstances of the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ speaks about a multitude of the heavenly host; they were praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace" (Luke 2:14). They indicated that peace on earth was in the mind of God, and the Babe of whom they spoke and whose birth they celebrated was the guarantee of that peace. But later in his gospel as the Lord at the close of His life here was entering into Jerusalem, it was said, "Peace in heaven" (Luke 19:38). Peace on earth was therefore deferred, for, indeed, the Lord in the meantime had said that He was not come to give peace on earth but rather division; but His entrance into Jerusalem was accompanied by the prophetic statement, for such it was, "Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". He had already said that He beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. His fall would not promote peace on earth, but it would make room for peace in heaven. Peace on earth is deferred. It will come about in due course, but the establishment of peace in heaven precedes it, for God operates out of heaven beginning thence. And so I read from Ephesians because it refers to the position in heaven. It contemplates Christ there and the assembly there.

This chapter speaks about the saints being quickened with Christ, raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. The position is therefore fixed; our place is assured,

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and nothing steadies one more here than the sense of an assured place in heaven. From the standpoint of Ephesians our position is assured; it is not in prospect; it is accomplished. It is not that we shall be raised up together, but it is that He has raised us up together; so that our place is no longer in question, not even a matter of hope, it is already accomplished. And so the introduction, lower down in the chapter, of the idea of peace amongst us is the normal setting of the truth, for sons of peace are heavenly products. The Lord Himself, it says, is our peace, and He has established peace amongst His people by the making of twain one new man. He has brought down, in other words, what is established in heaven unalterably, and made it effective here. The Spirit shews that having done everything through redemption to accomplish it, He came Himself to preach peace. Note that, dear brethren. He came Himself and announced glad tidings of peace to us afar off, that is, Gentiles, and to those that were nigh. His thought was to bring in peace, to bring in here what was already established in heaven, and to cause a state of peace to be effective amongst His people on earth.

Now I wish to show how this truth in Ephesians is to work out in local companies of the people of God at the present time. So I read from that section in Luke because, as I hope we shall see, it treats of local furnishings, and local furnishings are of a piece with general furnishings, for the economy of the assembly requires that there be no variations, hence the word is, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies". One heard recently in visiting a certain place that there was a custom there, a very simple thing, a mere item, but it was a local custom, and a local custom is simply an innovation, and an innovation is foreign to the assembly. The assembly is out of heaven morally, its furnishings are out of heaven,

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and uniformity and universality are what mark it; so that there is no idea of local customs. Whatever marks one locality should mark all, or in other words, all are to take character from heaven, and each local company should be in some sense a representation of what is in heaven, otherwise it can afford no congenial place for the Lord Jesus -- for divine Persons. We must in some sense have in view that we are to have divine visitations, and in view of that, the local furnishings are to be out of heaven and therefore in accord with heaven.

A son of peace, as having received the gospel, is one who has an understanding of what is in heaven. He has received the gospel preached by the Lord Himself -- glad tidings of peace. He is a son of peace, which means that he is developed in the idea of it; he will not give way to disturbance, but holds to that which rules in heaven and maintains it at all costs. The emissaries of Christ as entering into a town or place should look for such an one "If a son of peace be there".

I pass on now to chapter 9 to show how the Lord had in view on His way to heaven (for He was about to be received up) that there should be suitable furnishings for Him in all places He would visit; He sent messengers "before his face", we read. The time of His receiving up had come. I need not speak of the kind of reception He had in heaven -- of the reception that awaited Him. At the end of this gospel He is said to be carried up into heaven. Not only was the Father Himself supremely interested, but in all the history of heaven there never had been such an event, so that as He was carried up all the intelligences in heaven would be interested; they would all, indeed, add to the glory and the splendour of the reception. He was received up "in glory". One can understand how that all that God is in affection would shine upon Him, and the angels and archangels

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in that scene would add their part to the wonderful glory of that scene.

And so in this chapter it is said the time of His receiving up had come, but what moral history entered in in the interim! He sends messengers before His face into a village of the Samaritans to make ready for Him. Heaven was quite well known to Him, as He says elsewhere, "The Son of man who is in heaven" (John 3:13), and again, "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:62). Heaven was known to Him, and if He sent messengers before His face to make ready for Him, He would have in mind some heavenly condition. But what do we find in the village of the Samaritans? They did not receive Him. They were not in accord with heaven. Do you see what the position is? It is a question of being in accord with heaven. The Samaritans were entirely out of accord with heaven; they had pursued a national history of rivalry. Rivalry with Jerusalem was stamped on the national history of Samaria, and its village was of a piece with the nation; the character of the nation enters into the smallest village of it, and even characterises the most insignificant citizen of it. What is national is not heavenly, and any fostering of what is national is contrary to heaven. They did not receive Him because His face was set towards Jerusalem; it was set towards that city which was their rival. How can the son of peace be where national rivalry exists? Impossible! And so they did not receive Him. There could be no son of peace there. His face was set to go to Jerusalem, and Samaria, even the smallest village in it, would not receive One whose face was in that direction. There was no son of peace there.

But the Lord is not going to be diverted from His thought. If one village rejects Him, another would receive Him, and that is what He is doing now. He takes up seventy. The matter is of supreme importance.

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Are there to be localities in which Christ is received? There are; and so the Lord appoints seventy. I wish we might take this in, for it is of immense importance. The seventy are sent "two and two before his face into every city and place where he himself was about to come"; and He directs them, for He is bent on the success of their service. He goes into details as to how they were to be governed in this mission; He says, "and into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace to this house. And if a son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it". The mission was to take account of houses, and as they enter into the house, they were to inquire if a son of peace were there.

Now this is a very practical matter. Are we sons of peace? If local meetings do not begin with sons of peace, trouble will soon arise; as the Psalmist says, "I am for peace; ... they are for war" (Psalm 120:7). So one must look into one's heart and see if one is formed out of heaven -- a son of peace. The son of peace corresponds with one of the assembly. "If two of you"; there it is two of the assembly, and what I would say about that passage in Matthew 18 is that administration is in the assembly. Heaven has committed itself to the assembly. Administration is not in the hands of the elders of the assembly, it is in the hands of the assembly. "Tell it to the assembly", it says, not to the elders, "and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer". And then later, "Again I say to you", the Lord says, "If two of you", that is, two of the assembly. That calls up the question of responsibility. In the Old Testament the idea of eldership is intended to convey the idea of responsibility. The types have their own language and they convey the idea of responsibility in those who are the elders, but to carry that out literally now, would be to set aside the assembly

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and to assume that all administration is in the hands of elders, which is not true; whereas the truth of the New Testament is that administration is in the hands of the assembly.

So the Lord in addressing the assemblies addresses the angel, not the angels. "To the angel of the assembly in Ephesus write" (Revelation 2:1). That is not simply one person in Ephesus. It is spiritual language, for Scripture has its own vocabulary, and it means to convey that Ephesus had its own responsibility, and that that responsibility included every Christian in Ephesus. If any one disclaim it he is not of the assembly. He does not belong to "two of you"; but he who accepts it belongs to the assembly characteristically. He may say, I am very weak, but "If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven". The whole power of heaven is available to two of us, however weak; and again, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". Is there not power for administration in such a company? It is not a question of elders there, but of those gathered to His name; He is there.

Hence, Peter, in order to make way for Paul's ministry, in visiting Lydda, says to Æneas, "Jesus Christ maketh thee whole". Jesus Christ is here to provide material for the assembly, "Rise up and make thy couch for thyself" (Acts 9:34). So Æneas is able to make his bed for himself, and that is the principle that underlies every local company. The Lord is with them; they face the problem; heaven is available to them; they can pray; and the Lord Jesus, in whose hands all power in heaven and on earth is vested, is with them. That is the position. That is the position of the assembly economy at the present time, and anything that sets that aside is against the truth. The Lord is with local companies, and He

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enables them to administer and to carry out the will of heaven upon earth. Any such local companies must be sons of peace. They must be formed of sons of peace, for the Lord is sure to come. He sends these seventy persons two and two into every place to which He intended to come; He is sure to come.

Well now, if a son of peace be in the house into which ye enter, let your peace rest upon it. You have a house. Is it owned by a son of peace? If so, the peace of Christ, through His missionaries, will rest upon that house. We see thus that our houses have more to do with the peace or trouble of the assembly than we are apt to think, hence the importance of having peace reigning in our houses. The Lord is sure to come, and as He comes He finds not only a son of peace, but his house possessed of peace, and thus he represents the material for the local company.

But there is more that follows in the chapter to establish all this. As the seventy returned to Him and spoke of the power that was operative in them over what was evil, the Lord says, "In this rejoice not ... but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven"; He is dealing really with material for the local assemblies, and whilst the overthrow of Satanic power is of great importance, what is greater is that their names are written in heaven. In other words the idea is introduced that we really belong to heaven, and are thus ennobled and fitted to receive Christ as He visits us, "every city and place, whither he himself would come".

Now I want to show, just in passing, a very practical illustration of all I am saying. In the end of the chapter the Lord visits a certain village. Its name is not given, but it was the village of Mary and Martha. Martha had a house and she received the Lord into it, but what was the state of her soul? It were well indeed to receive Him, but what was the state of her soul? Was she a son of peace?

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Let the word itself answer. She complained about her sister; she complained that her sister was allowing her to serve alone. Who was her sister? She was a son of peace. Mary sat at the feet of Jesus. She knew how to sit. One of the greatest lessons to be learned by us is to learn how to sit. Many of us live in our service, others in the meetings, in the whirl of things; that is not sitting, beloved. If you were to enter into heaven, you would find no turmoil or disturbance there, no running hither and thither. Mary was one of those who had learned to sit at the feet of Jesus. We find her again in John sitting in the house. Martha ran out to meet Him, but Mary sat still in the house. Presently the Master calls and she moves at His call. She had learned to sit in the house; she had learned not to be governed by turmoil and excitement; she had learned to sit, and she sat still in the house until the Master came and called for her.

So Martha is complaining against a son of peace. I do not say Martha was not one at bottom, for she was; she was one whom the Lord could rebuke effectively, and He says, "Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: but one thing is needful" -- and a son of peace knows what that is -- "and Mary hath chosen that good part". It was not a mere accident; she chose to sit at His feet. It is a fine tribute to Mary that she chose something which should not be taken away from her. She was in accord with heaven. Heaven was interested in Jesus and she was in accord with heaven. A son of peace is the product of heaven, maintaining heavenly conditions upon earth, conditions that Jesus appreciates. How He valued that son of peace as she sat at His feet. It was a genuine pleasure to Him -- a delight to His heart.

Referring now to the next chapter, we find the Lord was praying in a certain place; "when he

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ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray ... and he said unto them, When ye pray, say", meaning that He would teach the sons of peace. Not going into what follows, I just want to call attention to the reference to the Father as of heaven. If we are sons of peace on earth and desirous of having heavenly conditions for Christ in our localities, we may be sure that the Father who is of heaven (for that is how it ought to be read) will be with us. In Matthew 18:19 it is, "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". Matthew is "in heaven", because it is a question of the Father's administration in that gospel, but Luke is "of heaven"; it is the character. And so He says, "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" The Father answers the prayers of the sons of peace. They wish heavenly conditions here, and they ask the Father, and He gives according to the wealth of heaven; He gives in no niggardly way, but according to the bounty of heaven. He is of heaven, and what He gives is heaven's best gift, and it is only by the possession of the Spirit in our localities that we can have collective conditions according to heaven.

I do not add more, but I would urge the thought of sons of peace and the result of their desires -- the Father acting with them to have conditions suitable to Christ. The conditions that are entirely suitable to Christ are in heaven; He is the Son of man which is in heaven. Paul brings out our correspondence with Him; "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Corinthians 15:48). Our heavenly status is assured -- an assured heavenly status -- not a prospect, but a fact, so that we are in accord with heaven, and we seek conditions suitable to Christ in the meantime. The time of His receiving up is come, the Lord is

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moving on, and He would have conditions to which He can come. So, as in the possession of the Spirit from the Father who is of heaven, we have the means of providing, to some extent at least, these conditions for Christ; and that is the point of supreme importance in His mind at the present time.

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Pages 196 - 226 -- "How Living Conditions are Promoted.." Manchester, September, 1925. (Volume 76).

HOW LIVING CONDITIONS ARE PROMOTED

John 7:32 - 53; John 8:1,2

J.T. This scripture helps as to moral power, something we shall all, no doubt, admit we are greatly in need of. They sent officers to take Him; they had official power to arrest Him, but no moral power. The officers report that "Never man spake like this man". It occurred to me that it would help us to see how the Lord rises morally above the opposing and conflicting circumstances in which He was, so that the opposition is baffled and rendered impotent. The chapter shows that whilst the Lord refused to go up to the feast officially, He nevertheless went up; and, being there unofficially, He is marked by superiority to all that is there. The chapter, too, seems to me to present a picture of our own time, in which there are those who are official, whose time is always ready, and there is also division of thought as to Christ: "So there was a division among the people because of him". Some think this, and some that; amongst other things they were puzzled that, not having learned, He knew letters. There is a state of uncertainty and confusion, and, amid all this, direct opposition which showed itself in sending officers to take Him. We see how the Lord shines out in these circumstances, and triumphs, as we may say, on moral grounds; then He brings out how a believer may do the same. The secret of all this for us is the presence of the Spirit from Christ in heaven -- from Jesus glorified. "This spake he of the Spirit". It is a remarkable passage in that way. The Lord is speaking of the Spirit in believers.

J.McM. It is said by Him in this chapter, "He

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that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory".

J.T. Just so. The Lord was here as sent, and as He heard, He spoke.

J.McM. The Spirit always glorifies Christ.

J.W. Was the moral power which was lacking in the feast found in Him?

J.T. Yes; there was no moral power attached to it -- no satisfaction.

H.E.S. Is your thought, then, that this chapter presents the contrast between what is official and what is moral?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. The manner in which the Holy Spirit is brought in here is very striking, because the Lord is speaking about Him as in the believer, not exactly as in chapter 14 -- another Comforter, but as in the believer. Another thing to be noted is, He is speaking in reference to the Scriptures -- "as the scripture hath said". This would lead to diligent inquiry, because He does not give chapter and verse, nor even the book. It is a wholesome reminder of the importance of reading Scripture. It is a very striking fact that John brings in the Scriptures in view of the last times; he emphasises in a most striking way the importance of the Scriptures; as it says in chapter 2:22, "When therefore he was risen from the dead ... they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said". Many of us, I fear, are very deficient in regard to Scripture; unless we read it we cannot believe it, and, again, we are cast on the Lord as to understanding. Reading in itself is of little use; Philip said to the eunuch, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" (Acts 8:30).

F.W.B. Why do you think John gives such a large place to the Scriptures?

J.T. I think it is with a view to meeting moral conditions. The enemy has been endeavouring to discredit the Scriptures, if not to dispose of them entirely,

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and John brings them in in his own way. He builds the thought of the importance of the Scriptures into their souls as he proceeds.

J.B. There is no moral power in the believer apart from the indwelling of a divine Person, is there?

J.T. I think the work of God in John tells us so in a moral way from the beginning. Nicodemus evidences the work in the believer, in that he comes to Jesus by night and says, "We know that thou art a teacher come from God" (John 3:2). John has a way of giving his thoughts informally. Here is a man who knows something. It is a very important thought in the beginning of a Christian's career, that he knows something; and what Nicodemus knew he knew on moral grounds; he is enabled to discern where God is.

E.L.M. I suppose faith would not lean upon the official recognition of what the Lord is saying. I was thinking of the inquiry in verse 48, "Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?" If there is faith, we would not lean upon an official recognition.

J.T. No. And what we find here is that the work of God is always true; we may rely upon it. Nicodemus had shown that the work of God was in him, and he is the only one whose voice is lifted up in this chapter according to God. He makes an undeniable remark: "Doth our law judge any man before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" That is the one voice lifted up in the midst of this confusion -- a very feeble voice, indeed, for Nicodemus was one of them, like many a Christian at the present time.

E.T.S. What do you mean by "one of them"?

J.T. One of the councillors; he was a member of the Jewish Council.

E.T.S. What do you mean by saying 'like many a Christian at the present time'?

J.T. A Christian who is in the council -- it may be in the town council, or Parliament, or any such place.

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E.T. Would you indicate something that would help us to understand verse 38, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"?

J.T. Well, I think the thought is that a Christian becomes influential for good. The idea of rivers in Scripture generally is influence for good. The first mention of a river is in Genesis 2, and its influence was for good; it went out to water the garden, and from thence it was parted and became four main streams, so that the Lord alludes here in a general way to the meaning of rivers. That thought should appear pre-eminently in those who believe on Christ.

A.G. Would that be the evidence of moral power, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"?

J.T. Yes, I think that is the thing. The inward parts are those in which the lower affections are developed. Man became a living soul, in contra-distinction to all other creatures, by the breath of God. He received his life from God.

E.T. Would you say that there is the thought in it of another Man, who was always before God, and to whom Scripture is ever pointing from the very beginning? It is out of your believing on that Man that rivers of living water flow.

J.T. One can understand that a very great change must come about in man, if living water is to flow out of him, considering that his affections had become corrupt; so that it could only be by receiving the Spirit as from Jesus glorified.

J.McM. Is this dependent upon apprehending Him where He is gone? Faith would lay hold of that.

J.T. I think that what has been suggested that another Man has come in with the elements of cleansing is most important. John tells us elsewhere that He came by water and blood; the water, I think, deals with the inner part of man, as the blood disposes of his guilt and meets his conscience. In the gospel the blood comes first, in the epistle the water comes

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first; it is to cleanse man inwardly, so that he may be a suitable vessel. The woman in chapter 4 may be taken as a representative of corruption, and yet the Lord says to her, "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life"; that implies that there must be cleansing. I think Proverbs 5:15,16, helps us as to this scripture: "Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well. Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets". There I think you have something that corresponds with chapter 4. You have your own fountain to drink out of, and then it is poured forth; that corresponds with chapter 7.

A.G. Is this all consequent upon our being the subjects of a divine work?

J.T. The early chapters in John are constructive. Chapter 2 shows that there is no confidence at all to be placed in a faith in that which is external, but chapter 3 shows a man judging of things on moral grounds. He comes to Jesus by night. Then you have the uplifted Son of man, which has direct reference to Numbers 21, and Numbers 21 refers to Genesis 3. It is a dealing with the source of evil in the uplifted Son of man. That the believer understands, so that a way is made for the living water.

Ques. Would you say that in chapter 2 the water comes down, in chapter 4 the water comes up, and in chapter 7 the water flows out?

J.T. Yes, that is right.

W.S.S. You were referring to the rivers in Genesis. They were to flow out universally in blessing, I take it. Would you say that, in John 7, God's thought is thus secured?

J.T. Yes. Jesus is the source; but we read, "the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified". We have the rivers flowing out from Jesus through the believer, as

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having received the Spirit. The believer in John is regarded as a trustworthy vessel, not again to be corrupted.

Ques. Are the vessels purified in John?

J.T. I think chapter 3 deals with the state in which they were -- with the source, hence it is dealt with thoroughly in the uplifted Son of man, so that the woman in chapter 4 supposes the light of the previous chapter. Then you have the source of evil and then the source of all good: "God so loved the world". The Spirit is the testimony to that here -- to what is in the heart of God; so that we have the source of evil dealt with effectively, and then the source of good opened up, so that all that is of God flows out. You can then understand how a corrupt woman can become a vessel. She left her waterpot she was to be the vessel -- that is the idea. The believer is to be a vessel. She "went her way into the city and saith to the men, Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did". She is a vessel for the communication of light.

H.E.S. Is your thought that John always deals with things from the source, and if the source is right, the outflow will be right?

J.T. That is how it works, I think. So now you have the vessel typically in the woman; she is true to the light. She says, too, "Come, see a man". That is another principle with John; you "come and see". By coming, the men of the city discovered that He was the Saviour of the world. That vessel is set up, too, in quickening; "The Son quickeneth whom he will" (chapter 5:21); the person is made to live; he is a living vessel; then chapter 6 is to show how we are to be sustained here by the principle of the Son of man coming down, because the principle with God is coming down. He came down and died, gave His flesh for the life of the world. Thus the vessel is sustained with suitable food, hence in chapter 7

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we have moral power. It is a hint as to how all the difficulties arising among the saints are to be met; it is a question of moral power, not of official power. We cannot rely on the official; it is what is moral that prevails.

Ques. Was there not moral power evident in the life of John?

J.T. You see it working out in him.

J.C. What is the thought of Jesus being glorified?

J.T. I think it is that a Man glorified God on earth, so that He received glory in heaven in return.

Ques. Were you suggesting that there should be moral and spiritual conditions found in the saints that correspond with what was here in Jesus?

J.T. That is exactly the position today; what power have you got if evil arises in a meeting; how are you going to meet it? It is not a question of a man's age, but of what power he has acquired.

A.E.C. And would you lay emphasis on the "he that seeketh his glory that sent him" in connection with this moral power?

J.T. I would indeed.

F.W.B. It is remarkable that in John believing is not in the past tense, that you have believed, but you do believe -- "believeth".

J.T. Yes, it is the kind of person. They would make little of Christ, but He points out that even a believer in Him would be greater than the feast of tabernacles.

J.McM. Is it in Him as the Son? John does not speak of Him as the Lord Jesus Christ (it is the same Person), but in that way.

J.T. When the Jews said to Him, Who art thou, Jesus said to them, "Altogether that which I also say unto you" (John 8:25). It is entirely a question of moral power here.

Rem. The Lord says, "Whither I go, ye cannot come" (chapter 8:21). Is not that so today? It was impossible

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to go where He is in the position these people were. What is official has no life and power to reach it.

J.T. Just so.

J.H.T. Would that moral power have already been presented in the Old Testament?

J.T. Yes; quite.

H.E.S. Do we get experience of God on these lines?

J.T. Yes, that is the thing. The Lord was what He said. What you see here is that every man went to his own home; this was how matters stood. But there was one Man who did not go to any home on earth, He went to the mount of Olives. We see how one Man in the crisis can be effective by maintaining a link with heaven; that is what the mount of Olives stands for. And early in the morning He comes again into the temple. Then we have the working out of the exercises of this chapter in the next. The Lord comes in and teaches; "All the people came to him; and he sat down and taught them". What appeals to me is that in the midst of this confusion the people of God are to be taught, and that not according to the education of a university, but with thoughts that are like the Teacher Himself. What is needed is one coming from the mount of Olives, and that suggests a heavenly Teacher; the Holy Spirit is the prominent feature. The secret is that we have access to heaven by the Spirit.

H.E.S. Then is your thought that John maintains the link with heaven by the Spirit?

J.T. I think the mount of Olives here is to carry on the thought of the Spirit. Now the Lord comes in, into the midst of all the confusion, and you have teaching from heaven.

E.T.S. Would you say that the fact that we have received the Spirit does not necessarily imply that there will be "rivers of living water"?

J.T. It is the characteristic believer here -- those

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who are marked by faith in Christ in a characteristic way are the vessels out of whom the rivers flow.

E.T.S. When it is said, "This spake he of the Spirit", is that the thing worked out in the believer as it comes out in moral power?

J.T. That is what I understood -- "the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive". I think we should note the word 'receive'. It is my reception here, not exactly those to whom He is given.

C.C. Do the activities of the Spirit in us depend on our knowing the Lord in the place where He is glorified?

J.T. I think so. That is what the mount of Olives suggests. The Holy Spirit, though here, operates on the basis of our dependence on God and prayer.

E.L.M. Do we not see the thought you suggested of the link with heaven being maintained unbroken, in the blessed Lord? At the very end, He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and would not that be the secret of moral power with us?

J.T. I think so. It is a wonderful thing that there is a living link with heaven.

J.P. Do you think there is any connection with the last chapter of Zechariah? The mount of Olives is spoken of there, and the living water.

J.T. Yes. To understand this I would read all the scriptures that speak of rivers in a good sense. Ezekiel speaks of water issuing from the house, from underneath the altar.

J.P. There was healing for the salt sea, was there not, in Ezekiel?

J.T. Quite.

W.S.S. Is your thought that the flowing of a river is irresistible?

J.T. Yes. What can you do with a river? It is a power. The source of all good is the heart of God

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(chapter 3), and the source of all evil is met in the death of Christ; now God is free to let His heart come out. Chapter 7 is to show how believers may become vessels for what is in the heart of God.

W.S.S. I thought in that way, referring again to Genesis, that, whatever we may see around us officially at the present moment, we see that God's purposes of blessing are being secured.

J.T. Yes, that is what John brings out. Think of what one believer may be!

Ques. How would you connect that with the beginning of Revelation 22 -- with the river of water of life clear as crystal?

J.T. I think it is the same idea; the clearness of it is spoken of, and stands over against the streams of this world, which are corrupt. Governments are maintained by manipulation; there is darkness, whereas in the throne of God everything is open; there is nothing to disturb it at all. The water is clear, bright as crystal, and on every side of the river, on this side and on that side, is the tree of life.

Ques. Is your thought that if there is moral power in the Spirit, we shall not only be superior to opposition, as in chapter 7, but able to teach as in chapter 8?

J.T. Yes. Now you have the key, not only for heavenly influence, but for positive teaching; He sat down, and taught them in the temple.

R.W. Is that the moral result of retirement from the people?

J.T. He is isolated by the fact that every man goes unto his own home.

Rem. That teaching stands out in very sharp contrast to the confused thoughts to which you have already drawn attention.

J.T. Yes. In Ecclesiastes 12:11 the preacher sought out acceptable words; "The words of the wise are as goads, and the collections of them as nails fastened in". Something to carry both the

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conscience and mind is wanted. All ministry should be authoritative. John is concerned about a man who knows; "We speak that we do know", the Lord says, "and testify that we have seen" (John 3:11).

H.E.S. Do I understand that you are suggesting that what is presented in the Lord should be an exercise in regard of ourselves? The Lord taught as One who had authority.

J.T. That is the thing -- to know what you are speaking about. In chapter 8 they bring to Him a woman taken in adultery; well, what is He going to do now? They say, we are going to baffle Him. They could baffle a man who was ignorant, but not one who knows. The Lord stoops down, and writes on the ground, then He lifts up Himself. "He that is without sin among you", He says, "let him first cast a stone at her". What had they got to show? Nothing is a greater work than to get people's consciences active against themselves. They went out one by one.

Ques. What does writing suggest?

J.T. I think the first writing would suggest the tables of the covenant, the second would be His own death. The accusers need not have gone out, they might have stayed, for all the grace of heaven was there, but they did not stay; being convicted, they went out one by one. The second writing involved the new covenant -- forgiveness, and the writing in the heart. The multitude are not affected at all, but there are a few here and there who are consciously affected for God.

H.E.S. Would it be right to say that John suggests to us that it is rather a question of quality than of quantity?

J.T. That is true; he is concerned about quality.

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VICTORY BY OVERCOMING

1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 5:4,5; 2 Kings 13:14 - 19

I wish to speak about victory -- a word that enters into our present circumstances in a peculiar way, for the history of the assembly, given us in Revelation, contemplates that in every age there should be victors or overcomers; and, in the last four addresses, an ear to hear what the Spirit has to say is made to depend on personal victory or overcoming. And so it is in my mind to show how provision is made, even in a day of weakness, for victory.

First you will observe that it is said, in Corinthians, that God gives it to us. It is not put as a matter of the future; it is given now. "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ". And what is thus given is within our range. It does not imply that the Corinthians had it; had they had it, in a characteristic way, there would have been no need for this long, instructive chapter, a chapter which carries rebuke, for some of them said there was no resurrection. "How say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?" he says, and when the scripture uses such language, "Some among you", it means to convey that all are responsible, even as the Lord said to His disciples, "One of you". The obligation would come to all of us, and so if there be any, in any of our companies, denying any part of the truth, the onus belongs to all in it, and each has to see to it that he clears himself.

But although the resurrection was being denied at Corinth, nevertheless God would give them the victory. Other assemblies, doubtless, were in possession of it; certainly many believers were, and what they were in possession of was God-given.

Now John speaks of it from the other side; not as

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God-given exactly, but as acquired, and so he mentions three things. The first has reference to every true Christian: "Whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world". It is its character. It is not 'whosoever', but "whatsoever", and if that "whatsoever" does not apply to any of us, then we are not Christians, for every true Christian is born of God, and there is that in him which overcomes the world in the principle of it. Then what follows upon that is "our faith". If there be any one who has not this he cannot be regarded as a Christian. You will observe that the better translation reads, "This is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith". There is that which has been brought in by Christ, a system of teaching established in this world, held in the souls of the people of God, which has overcome the world. I apprehend that the apostles brought in that system of truth which was received into the souls of believers, and which overcame the world. There were systems before -- the Jewish system, many Oriental systems, and some Western ones, but they were essentially of the world. I know that the Old Testament system was typical, and in that sense was heavenly and of God, but as it existed in Jerusalem when the Lord Jesus taught there, it was worldly. It had deteriorated, so that it became a tradition, and rose no higher morally than any other Oriental system; whereas the Lord introduces a system of teaching, confirming it by the ministry of the apostles in the power of the Spirit, which in the very essence of it overcame the world. It brought down the world in the souls of those who received it, as seen in the ministry of Paul at Ephesus; there were no minds capable of standing against the teaching of Paul there, for the world was brought down; it was overthrown in the minds and hearts of those who received the testimony.

And so John here speaks about that -- "our faith".

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Christians had something that rendered them different from any other system, religious or philosophical. They had something that overcame the world. The superiority of the system had been set out and displayed for all those who came into it. Those of us who have come into it have proved it; we have proved that it overthrows in our souls and in our minds every element of the intellectual and religious world, and all other features of the world. It is incomparable. The system that we have, beloved friends, is incomparable, to such an extent that it has overcome the world, and the world knows that it is overcome by that which is superior, and it can never lift up its head again in the presence of those who are in the faith.

But then there is another thing, put in the form of a question: "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Here we have another thing. I would appeal to every one, especially to young people, for young ones must not assume that the thought of the Son of God is beyond them. The great gospel epistle, the epistle to the Romans, begins with the truth that Jesus is the Son of God: "God's glad tidings, ... concerning his Son ( ... marked out Son of God in power ... . by resurrection of the dead) Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 1:1 - 4). The gospel preached to us is concerning the Son of God, as the apostle says, "The Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you". The Son of God had been preached among the Corinthians by a threefold testimony -- by Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus, so that the thought of the Son of God is not beyond the youngest, but it is great enough for the oldest. The knowledge of the Son of God is the very acme of truth, and so John says, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" The Son of God is on God's side. God approaches men in His Son, and He

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invades the domain of death; He overthrows death, and in overthrowing it He brings in another world. By resurrection He is declared to be the Son of God. The declaration is not from heaven, as in the gospels "This is my beloved Son"; it is not a question here of the Father's voice, but of what He Himself did in raising the dead. The Person upon whom you believe raises the dead. As He says, "All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth". So that, apprehending Him as Son of God, I apprehend one who has overthrown death, and who, in doing that, has brought in another order of things. John presents Him thus, and also shows that He takes up isolated ones; chapter 9 introduces an isolated one -- isolated on account of his testimony. It is a wonderful thing to be isolated on account of your testimony to Christ. When the Lord heard that they had cast him out, it says, He found him, for it is of such that He proposes to set up another world -- of those whom this world casts out. This world has a way of casting out, of isolating those who are true to Christ; and when the Lord hears that they are cast out, He finds them wherever they are. There is not a thing that occurs in our lives or in the history of our souls that He does not notice. It is of such that He proposes to set up a world for God. There was correspondence between them, for He had been cast out, so we have two outcasts -- the blessed Son of God and one who was a poor blind man. He takes him up and says, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" A wonderful question, proposed to one by the Lord! He has His own way of speaking to our souls, and He spoke to that man, who says in answer, "Who is he, Lord?" The epistle to the Romans answers that question for us; the declaration is the answer for our faith. The Lord says to him, "Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped

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him" (John 9:35 - 38). Such a one, beloved, gets the victory over the world. Could you tempt him with the world? Never! You could not draw him away by any attraction from the Son of God.

Well, now I want to show you from 2 Kings how these things are worked out, because there it was a day of extreme weakness, such as we find ourselves in. Elisha was sick, and it was the sickness of which he died. He represents here the declining state of the assembly. He had not yet died, nor have things died amongst us. The king of Israel was the responsible one, and I desire to press the element of responsibility. No one shines in the testimony until he begins to accept obligations, and he who refuses obligations disqualifies himself for the fellowship of the people of God. And so the king comes down to Elisha and weeps over his face, for Elisha's ministry had taught personal contact. You will remember how Elisha in his day had stretched himself on the child of the Shunammite, putting his eyes upon his eyes and his mouth upon his mouth. The truth of the assembly involves personal contact. The Lord, according to John, breathed into His disciples. Intimacy is a great feature of our position; and so this king is representative of obligation; he learned something of it. He wept on the face of the prophet, and said, "My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof!" These words came with burning power from Elisha when he had crossed the Jordan, as Elijah talked with him and Elisha saw him go up. He said, "My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof!" How different in the mouth of the poor king! And may I not make such a comparison with ourselves, in the coldness and hardness in which we use precious expressions? Nevertheless it was right; the chariot of Israel and the horsemen were still available, but oh, how different! Where was the mantle of Elijah

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by which the Jordan was divided? The poor king knew nothing of that, like many of us. It is well, dear brethren, to humble ourselves, and to see the greatness of an earlier day as compared with our own. Nevertheless victory is available, and so the king is directed to take a bow and arrows, and the prophet in his weakness placed his hands upon the king's hands. For what latent strength was there in the poor king? The strength was in Elisha; nevertheless it was happy for the king that he placed himself so near the vessel of power. He had come to the source of power; he humbly submitted to the guidance of the prophet, and hence possible victory. It is well to understand the potentialities. What is not possible to us as we are subject to, and as we submit to be connected with, the vessel of power? There is such -- wavering power, it is true, because of the state of the vessel -- the state of the assembly; nevertheless it is the only vessel of power. There is none elsewhere. The Holy Spirit still remains, and He acts through vessels, and those vessels are believers who belong to the assembly. The power is available through them.

So Elisha says, "Take bow and arrows ... Put thine hand upon the bow. And he put his hand upon it; and Elisha put his hands upon the king's hands. And he said, Open the window eastward ... Then Elisha said, Shoot". You see the king is so far entirely subject to the prophet. Otherwise victory would have been impossible; but in subjection to the prophet, complete victory is possible. God presents what is possible, and complete victory is possible.

The window being opened eastward, means, I apprehend, that you look in the direction of the coming of the Lord. The east represents what is from God; it is the point of the rising sun. It refers to Christ coming up in His benign power, and then victory is certain. And so he says "Shoot",

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and he shot an arrow of Jehovah's deliverance. What can any of us do, beloved, save in the light of what Christ has done and is doing? The addresses to the assemblies show that He is active at the present time; it is continuous service, and hence the arrow of Jehovah's deliverance; deliverance is certain from that point of view. The book of Revelation shows certain victory, but it is victory from God. The assembly is seen coming down from God -- not from us -- out of heaven; we are, therefore, in the light of this wonderful arrow shot towards the east, assured of victory.

But how many of us have part in it? How many of us are overcomers? That is the question for each of us. So the prophet says now, "Take the arrows". He says nothing about the bow; the bow has reference to what God has done in Christ, and to what He will do. God can act everywhere, and He does; but when you come to the arrow, I am dealing with myself. "Smite upon the ground", he says. That is another matter. It is another matter, beloved brethren, when I discover that the difficulty lies in my own breast. You will remember how one smote upon his breast, and said, "O God, have compassion on me, the sinner" (Luke 18:13). So Paul says, "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell" (Romans 7:18). Then abandon it. Refuse to use it in your service. Have no confidence in it. It has proved a broken reed to millions, and it will prove that to you. Whatever form of the flesh you employ in the testimony, it will fail you, and not only fail you, but fail those who are trusting you, for we are all more or less influential. We are either influential for good or for evil, and if others lean upon me, and I lean upon the flesh, what will the end be but a reed piercing through us, to our sorrow? The apostle went through untold agony to discover the flesh, and he arrives at a definite conclusion; he has no hesitation whatever:

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he says, "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell".

So the prophet says, "Smite upon the ground", and the king smites three times. How descriptive! Three surely is ample testimony, but when you are dealing with an inveterate enemy, you are not content with what seems to be enough: you want to be sure. You want to be sure that the thief is dealt with; that if he enter your house, he is ejected and dealt with so effectively as to be wholly incapable of doing his evil work. So the prophet was wroth with him. May I not suggest, beloved, that wrath has existed against us on account of the allowance of the flesh? You will remember how the Lord sought to slay Moses, great man though he was, because of the circumcision. Was it a sham that He sought to slay him? God meant it, and He meant Moses to know that He meant it. Circumcision had to be accepted, that is the complete cutting off of the flesh; God will not have it in any of us.

The prophet was wroth with the king when he stayed, having smitten but thrice; he says, you should have smitten five or six times, then the victory would have been complete. I suppose man's measure is six at his greatest, so that, however powerful the flesh may be, it is dealt with in the five or six times. Now, the prophet says, the victory will be incomplete, but we must not be satisfied with an incomplete victory; we want a complete one. I have no doubt that there was something like this after the great revival called the Reformation; there was a certain disallowance of the flesh. I never read the Authorised Version of the Scriptures without the sense that God was with the translators in that work; but there is not the evidence of the smiting five or six times. During that great revival there had been a certain judgment of the flesh, and it continued, but what you find in the address to Sardis is, "I have not

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found thy works complete before my God" (Revelation 3:2), and incomplete works are not acceptable to God. He looks for a finish. The Lord had led the way in this; He said, "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do" (John 17:4). And so, when you come to Philadelphia, you have evidence of subjection to Christ. He says, "And hast kept my word" (Revelation 3:8). It comes to one with peculiar sweetness. I do not suppose anything is so pleasing to the Lord as the keeping of His word -- that we are concerned about every word that comes from Him -- that the mind of the Lord is precious to us; we do not want to miss anything. Some live in the past; we hear oftentimes of the intelligence and spirituality of those who have passed away, and we believe it. I am glad to hear of it. I love to hear the recital of the work of God in those through whom the word of God came to us. But, beloved, we do not live in reminiscences, and if I speak of the piety and spirituality of those through whom the word of God came, the question arises, Am I continuing these things? Is it a mere matter of history, or am I carrying forward to the present generation what these men brought in? If not, it is to my shame. Do not speak of it, unless you can convey the thing to me, otherwise it is mere history. You want the thing carried forward, and so the word is, "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith" (Hebrews 13:7). That is the thing. If you are following their faith, then you have something to show, otherwise do not speak of it. We must not bring up these things to becloud what the Lord may say now. Can He not speak now? Yes, beloved, and He is speaking to this one and that one, and so the word is to the overcomer, "Let him hear what the Spirit says" -- not what He said, but what He says. Thank God for what He said, and if we have not the living ministers, we have their writings; but

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we are to hear what He says. What does He say now? He says, you have kept my word. "If any one love me, he will keep my word"(John 14:23). Then further He says, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation". It is not, If thou keep, but "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience" (Revelation 3:10). So we see that in Philadelphia there is something that goes on to this day that the Lord approves. "I have set before thee an opened door". There is something now in the possession of a little power that will come in by the opened door, and do something, and finish it for Christ, so as to be in accord with Him. John emphasises the idea of finishing things. "To finish his work", that was His meat. "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do", and again, "It is finished" (John 19:30). In Philadelphia the work goes on to completion; the arrows are used five or six times. The big 'I' -- how large it is! the flesh in Romans 7 is dealt with effectively in the five or six times, by the Spirit. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13).

From the divine side all things are possible, but from our side, how much? It is a question of the use of the arrows -- how much room there is made for the Spirit by the disallowance of the flesh; then and then only shall we have something finished for Christ.

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RESURRECTION POWER KNOWN

2 Kings 2:8 - 14; 2 Kings 4:18 - 21,32 - 37; 2 Kings 6:4 - 6; 2 Kings 13:20,21

These scriptures speak about resurrection, and so I have read them in order to seek to show, by the Lord's help, how resurrection is seen in the history of God's people, pending the coming of the Lord, when it will be applied in a literal way; as it is said, "Christ the first-fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

This book foreshadows, not the actual resurrection of the saints, as seen in 1 Corinthians 15, but the truth and power of it realised here for the testimony and for the enjoyment of our souls. And so these scriptures correspond rather with the epistle to the Colossians -- at least, it is in the light of that epistle that I desire to speak, for there it is said that we are "raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead" (Colossians 2:12).

Now I wish, as I said, to work out the truth set out in Colossians from these scriptures. And first I desire to speak of what marked the beginning of this era or dispensation, so that we may see how God intends that the testimony of His people now should be in correspondence with what marked the beginning. His thought is to bring us back to what marked the beginning, and so I finished with the incident we read in chapter 13, because it presents to us a man standing up in the power of resurrection, having touched the bones of Elisha. The bones of Elisha retained the virtue or living power that marked the prophet in the height of his ministry. In chapter 2 we have the resurrection of Christ foreshadowed, and not only the resurrection of Christ, but the ascension of Christ, for Christianity is not based only on resurrection. It is a heavenly thing, so that Elisha is said to

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have returned in the spirit of Elijah: "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha"; indeed, he had, by his own request and under the conditions described by Elijah, a double portion of Elijah's spirit.

Now it will be observed that in the beginning of the book, one man falls; the king of Israel fell down, and another man is taken up into heaven; so that Christianity, foreshadowed in Elisha, is set up here in that which, although outwardly retaining its power to oppose, is nevertheless known to be fallen. The foundations of the world were sapped in the death of Christ. The Lord said, as He was about to die, "Now is the judgment of this world ... And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:31,32). It is on this ground that the testimony went out; the death of Christ settled the question of righteousness, and the resurrection of Christ demonstrated the superiority of divine power over this world and the prince of it; it involved the fall of the world. The Lord in Luke anticipates all that, for He says, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18). The Lord, entering in as having accomplished righteousness, must displace him who is there; so Satan falls as lightning; he is effectively displaced, and the powers of evil have been dealt with, and spoiled.

So that the foundations of the world are broken up, and Elisha has returned across the Jordan in that power. It was in that power that the testimony was set up in the Acts. Elisha had said to Elijah, "My father, my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof!". For the prophet went up in a chariot of fire with horses of fire. Could all the power of the world combined interfere with that ascent? The poor sons of the prophets would attempt to deny the great fact that Elijah went up, as many have sought to deny the great antitype; but Elijah could not be found; he had gone up, and Elisha was clothed with the spirit and power of Elijah. He set

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aside all human power in the rending of his own garments, and he takes the garment of Elijah which had fallen from him, and says, "Where is the Lord God of Elijah?" And when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither, and Elisha went over. He returned into the scene of testimony in the same power by which Elijah had gone up into heaven.

And so he proceeds from one point to another, indicating the various features of the testimony, in that power. I would that I could convey to you, beloved friends, the power in which the gospel was announced on the day of Pentecost, and the power that possessed believers on that day. It was a wonderful day; in Christianity grace is connected with power, and that is what runs through this section of 2 Kings. There is the power of God on the one hand, and grace connected with it on the other; in other words, it is the power of God acting in grace.

Now I want to show how we are brought into accord with this, because God does not intend that the testimony should be carried on otherwise. As the Lord said to Philadelphia, "Thou hast a little power" (Revelation 3:8). There may be a diminution of quantity, but not of quality, and I wish to point out from chapter 4 how we come into correspondence with Christ. The chapter deals with the saints viewed as in possession of the Spirit; first there is the widow who becomes possessed of wealth, and then the married woman who has means, but is childless. Unless there be children, there can be no continuance of the testimony. So the prophet, through the aid of his servant Gehazi, discerned the need. The woman had means; she provided for the prophet, prepared a room for him; she behaved herself nobly. She was a spiritual person typically, she had the Spirit in that sense. She made room for Christ as the vessel of testimony. She discerned that Elisha

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was a holy man of God, for the possession of the Spirit enables us to discern holy men of God. We attach importance to none other. She had prepared for him, but there was a great need, and that need is met in a son.

You will notice, dear brethren, that whilst she is the wife, the initiative is all hers; the husband is in the background. We are therefore reminded of the saints in their exercises as having the Spirit; the subjective side is in view here. And so, when the lad becomes ill, he goes to his father, but his father immediately sends him back to his mother, and she takes him on her knees. I wish we had more maternal solicitude in regard to the young ones. We all know that young believers' minds travel much more rapidly than their feet -- and indeed that may be so with all of us; but with the young especially it is so, and they are apt to speak freely of things of which they know nothing spiritually. It is well, however, that they should speak of the things of God, and the people of God, rather than of the things of this world. The lad goes to his father at the time of harvest, and as they were reaping he says, "My head, my head". The trouble was in the head, and notwithstanding the nursing of the mother -- for the father discerned that it was a matter for the mother -- he died. His last words, so far as we know, were "my head, my head". You will recollect how, in Deuteronomy, the priest's portion from the sacrifices was the jawbone and the maw -- the stomach -- meaning that we have to live upon the truth; it is not merely food for the head, but it is to be assimilated in the system, so that I become, not in my head, but in my spirit, soul and body, characterised by the word of God; I am formed and nourished by it. But this young man had trouble in the head. It is important, surely, to have a mind, but the Holy Spirit, in Romans, brings about a renewal of the mind, and in Ephesians in the

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spirit of the mind, so that the whole man is taken account of. It is always well to be studious, and to take advantage of every possible help that the Lord gives; but let us see that the food is not only masticated, but digested and assimilated, otherwise there will be an abnormal condition -- spiritual disease and death; there is no escape from it.

So the mother knew what was needed, and she went to the prophet. The prophet himself seemed to be below the mark at the time. She had laid the child on the bed of the man of God, for she recognised where the power was; and it is a great thing for us, dear brethren, to know just where to go. I believe this scripture indicates a disease common among the people of God, but the saints are to know where the remedy lies.

And so Gehazi is sent, with the prophet's staff, which he laid on the face of the lad, as Elisha had said, but that did not suffice. Experience will not do. There are old brothers amongst us; experience is most valuable, experience with God, none other. A man might live a thousand years twice told, but it is experience with God that counts. But even that suffices not, for the staff was laid upon the face of the child, but there was "neither voice nor hearing".

Then Elisha comes, and sees the child dead, laid upon his bed. Elisha had rights there; he could shut the door, and he did it. You will recall how Peter shut out the widows in order to raise up Dorcas. The prophet's bed was his, and the room was his; it had been given to him, and he had rights in that chamber. Is there a place amongst us, beloved, where the Lord has absolute rights to do as He wills? He looks for such a condition. He Himself put out the crowd when He raised the daughter of Jairus.

Then you get the individual touch; the prophet lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth and his eyes upon his eyes. The young man's

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mouth now is to be formed to the mouth of Christ. He had been saying a great deal, saying things that others said, repeating them; now he will say things for himself. The Lord could say to the Jews, when they asked Him, "Who art thou?" "Altogether that which I also say to you" (John 8:25). What He said, He was. And so the prophet's mouth is placed upon the lad's mouth. It is said of the mouth of Jesus that it is "most sweet" (Song of Songs 5:16), and we read also that they marvelled at the gracious words that proceeded out of His mouth. So with the eyes of the lad -- they would be conformed to Christ's eyes. We could dwell on His eyes, for many references are made to them -- how He looked up to heaven when He prayed; "lifted up his eyes to heaven" (John 17:1). The prophet, too, put his hands upon the lad's hands, but what covers it all is this -- we have the mind of Christ. That is not simply that you know His mind; it refers to the faculty, His way of thinking. You do not think naturally, according to the flesh; you think as He thinks, you look as He looks, you speak as He spake, and work as He worked. It is all a question of correspondence with Christ.

Then the flesh of the child waxed warm, and he sneezed seven times; he has full lung power. There is room now for the Spirit in that sense, not as water, but as breath, for it is a question of life in the upper regions. What comes in lower down, living water, follows at once when the person is set up in relation to God, as Christ is, quickened together with Him, and quickened like Him.

Then the mother is called and told to take up her son. The prophet does not take him and hand him to her, as we get in the New Testament; when the widow of Nain had her son raised to life, we read, "He gave him to his mother" (Luke 7:15). What a son, we may say, taken into the bosom of the assembly! How like Christ he will be! Henceforth he will not merely

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repeat things that others say, but he desires to speak as Christ speaks, and his mother has him -- the saints, so to say, have such an one. Is it not worth all the maternal exercises to have a young man like that? As the apostle John says, "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you". This passage is the secret of that.

Now the sixth chapter refers to our service. In chapter 4 the lad is brought into correspondence to Christ and he is in the bosom of the saints; the mother is invited to come and take him, and she worships; she is thankful; she values the son brought back in this way. He will never again die from disease in the head. In chapter 6 it is, as I have already said, a question of service, but here, again, we have what corresponds to a diseased head, that is, losing something morally. Christianity is not made up of borrowed things; it is what belongs to us -- what is our own. Christ has restored everything; He has gone up on high, passed through the heavens, and given gifts unto men. The Holy Spirit here is not borrowed; we have untold wealth of our own, but this axe was borrowed, and hence it fell into the water. They were cutting down wood; they had the best intentions; they were governed by right principles, because they had come to Jordan, but they have to learn that the enlargement must be with instruments out of death, not with borrowed ones. We have to understand that we have infinite wealth, but it has all to be used on the principle of life out of death. The instruments are for those who understand resurrection power, and in such wise as to be superior to death, because it says, the iron swam, in response to the wood. The figure refers to the death and resurrection of Christ. We can only cope with the power of death as understanding the power of life in Christ, so that the weapons of our warfare

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are not carnal but mighty through God, and our teaching is not according to man, but in demonstration of the Spirit and in the power of God.

Now I want to make a few comments on chapter 13. We have seen in chapter 4 a young man made to live according to Christ, which illustrates the truth in Colossians; then in chapter 6 we have the power of resurrection, in the iron being made to swim, but now we have in this chapter a man raised. So far the principle of burial has not been brought in. It says in verse 20 that Elisha died, and they buried him. From the resurrection of Isaac, typically, the principle of burial is prominent in Scripture; burial is thus in the light of resurrection. "Elisha died, and they buried him", we read; he may be taken to typify the saints, but he also represents the Lord Jesus, and he does so here, for Paul says Christ died, and was buried. It is part of the gospel; and if He were buried, it is obvious that all must be buried if there is to be correspondence with Him, so that our baptism is into His death. "So many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ were baptised into his death ... that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:3,4).

Now that is Romans. Then in Colossians we are buried with Him by baptism, and raised with Him by the faith of the working of God, who raised Christ from the dead.

Now I want to make a few remarks on burial. Elisha died and was buried, and it says they were burying a man. I believe that at the beginning the moral import of burial was what marked the people of God; they had recourse to burial, that is to say, they were exercised to be true to their baptism. But the bands of the Moabites invaded the land, and I have no doubt that the bands of the Moabites have invaded all Christendom, and these bands hinder

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burial. It is not that they do not baptise, but it has become a mere religious rite, with no spiritual significance. It is not burial. Baptism is burial, and, at the beginning they were burying a man, to bring him into accord with the gospel. Christ died and was buried, and so the apostle says, we are baptised for the dead. There is no point in baptism unless it is burial. The Moabitish bands interfered, and they have interfered; but what comes out here is that they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha -- fortunately for him. Whether it was by mistake or accident we cannot say, but they cast him into the sepulchre of Elisha. Things are done very irregularly now, but the man went down. I have no doubt that this refers to the fact that they cast him in and he went down literally, but spiritually it may refer to what is available to us; notwithstanding Moabitish bands we may go down, and in going down, touch the bones of Elisha, that is to say, we come into contact with the power of God that wrought in Christ. He went into the lower parts of the earth, and, in going down we touch the power of God. The remnant takes root downward. The principle of this world is upward, but the principle of Scripture is to take root downward, and then you bear fruit upward. So this man touched the bones of Elisha, then it says he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Now I think that is what God is bringing about. The thing was done irregularly; there are a great many things current amongst us that are irregular; let us accept it, dear brethren. Why should they not bury a man? They cast him into a grave; nevertheless he got into the right one. God is overruling everything, and so with us. He touched the bones of Elisha, and the result was he became alive and stood on his feet. What can the Moabitish bands do now? You have got a risen man -- for that is what has happened

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here, and he stands up, as you see in Ezekiel later, when the dry bones took on flesh, received breath and stood up, an exceeding great army. What can the world do with a man out of death, a man that can stand up on his feet as having gone down? You take root downward; that is, you touch the power of God. The power of God has wrought in Christ; it is that which works in believers in Ephesians, the power that worketh in us. I believe God is bringing us to that. If you get one man risen from the dead, the Moabitish bands cannot overcome him; he stands true to the testimony.

Well, dear brethren, I hope you will see how God is working to bring about a living state of things, things that may come to life in our souls.

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Pages 227 - 353 -- "Readings at Indianapolis". December, 1925 (Volume 77)

READING (1)

Romans 5:5; Romans 8:1 - 17; Exodus 17:1 - 8; Numbers 21:16 - 25

R.S.S. The exercise of the local brethren here was that we might have something on the truth of the assembly, leading into the first two chapters of Colossians and Ephesians.

G.W.H-n. Colossians is intermediate, lying between the marvellous truth of reconciliation and the glory of Christ in the first chapter, and reconciliation and all that follows upon it would greatly help the entering into the purpose of God in Ephesians; and I am sure every one of us would greatly desire not only to be intelligent, but to answer at the present time to the mind of God in the purposes of His love. It would seem that in Colossians it is Christ all in all -- the wonderful provision for the believer in passing from earth to heaven entering into his heavenly privilege. We will never be afforded the privilege again, as we have been hearing in our brother's prayer, of answering to the mind of God in a hostile scene, and I am sure we all greatly desire to answer to that now.

R.S.S. You wished to say a word on the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, to link on the epistle to the Romans with what has been suggested. The Spirit is only mentioned once in Colossians, and not to call attention to Himself, but to say that there was love in the Spirit; chapter 1:8. In order to understand Colossians and Ephesians we have to learn how to acquire territory. The Israelites began to acquire territory before they actually entered into Canaan. As we see in this chapter they took the

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cities and dwelt in them. Otherwise, these scriptures, great as they are, will only be light to us, presenting what is in the mind of God for us, but we have not acquired anything subjectively.

R.S.S. 'These scriptures' -- to which do you refer?

J.T. Colossians and Ephesians. Romans involves acquirement of territory -- not indeed territory that one has to live in permanently, but nevertheless there is the principle of acquiring and living in what you have acquired, which is more than simply having the light of the thing.

W.M. Would the acquirement be seen in Romans 8, and the enjoyment in Romans 5:5?

J.T. I think Romans 5 is from the side of administration. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Spirit and becomes the basis, I think, of what follows. So there are those who love God in chapter 8. There I have acquired something. The love has become active in the believer -- he loves God.

W.M. You view chapter 5 from the divine side and chapter 8 from our side?

G.W.H-n. Yes, In the fifth administratively the love of God is shed abroad in your heart (chapter 5:5); in chapter 8:28, "All things work together for good to them that love God".

J.T. Yes, the love of God has become active in them, and I think that would correspond somewhat with Numbers 21.

W.M. Do you mean we come into life before we reach actual heavenly territory?

J.T. Just so. We have to learn to live, and to live in acquired territory. They lived, as you will observe, "Israel took all these cities, and Israel dwelt in all the cities of the Amorites".

W.M. That is, while they were still in the wilderness.

J.T. Before they actually entered Canaan. Before we come to Colossians we have to learn war, and in

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learning war to overcome, and in overcoming to take possession, and in taking possession to dwell in the thing that we acquire by our own prowess.

A.F.M. Would that be life in connection with power rather than in connection with privilege? They acquired territory on the wilderness side of the Jordan.

J.T. Quite. The Spirit is life -- power in the soul.

G.W.H-n. So that in possessing territory the believer would say here upon the earth, "What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Romans 8:31). He has already possessed.

J.T. Just so. There is the sense of victory. In Romans 8 there is no thought of defeat, so that the believer is in that way prepared for what Colossians opens up, and particularly Ephesians, because Ephesians is conflict.

A.M.H. What is territory?

J.T. It largely lies in love. Romans 8 opens up the purpose of God for the individual believer, and entering into this by the Spirit is the acquirement of territory.

A.M.H. So that the territory suggested in Romans is the mind and love of God towards you.

J.T. And that one answers to them. Romans is not Canaan; it is what takes place in the believer -- the displacement of the flesh by the Spirit. By the Spirit he says, Abba, Father, and he loves God. Formation has taken place. Where the difficulty lies with most believers is in the want of formation.

Ques. What is set forth in the digging of the well?

J.T. Fleshly hindrances are removed, and the Spirit is formally recognised; from that point there is a going forward. There had been a going forward earlier in the chapter and there is reference to the wars of the Lord, but no acquired territory -- no conflict and therefore no acquired territory, and hence no dwelling.

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A.F.M. Would you just say a word about the connection between Romans 5 and Exodus 17?

J.T. Well, the early part of Romans contemplates the judgment of God. Exodus 17 is the Spirit given from the standpoint of the judgment of God on man, borne vicariously by Christ. God said that He would be there at the rock Himself and Moses was to have the rod with him. It is a question of divine authority. I look at the Holy Spirit as the wealth of heaven come administratively, but then I ought to look at Him too as come, and only come, on the ground of the sufferings of Christ -- that it cost Him the smiting of God.

Rem. The smitten rock was the type of this.

J.T. Numbers 20 speaks of the rock also, but there should have been no smiting. It was rather the question of the character of the dispensation. The Holy Spirit is given in answer to speaking -- it is a question of speaking, but we have to learn before that that it cost the sufferings of Christ. He was smitten.

Rem. "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ" (1 Corinthians 10:4).

J.T. Just so. What is emphasised in this chapter (Exodus 17) is smiting. Even in the conflict later the rod of God is in the hand of Moses. It is a question of the authority of God.

J.B-t. Is there not a connection between the Red Sea and the smiting of the rock?

J.T. Yes, it is all a question of divine authority, and what is due to God. The Red Sea is death dealt with, but the smiting of the rock is more Christ Himself. The smiting of the Red Sea is God disposing of death in the resurrection of Christ; but the smitten rock involves the sufferings of Christ and hence it touches the heart -- that the Lord had to be smitten. If I have the Spirit, the Lord had to be smitten.

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A.M.H. It appeals to one's affections -- that the Lord has not only suffered to extricate us from Egypt, but He had to suffer in order that the Spirit might be given, the Spirit which would lead us into what is of God. He stands upon the rock here.

J.T. Going out of Egypt was not a question of thirst. Here it is thirst; they murmured and complained against Moses because they thirsted. Of course the dividing of the Red Sea typifies the death and resurrection of Christ, but it was to destroy him who had the power of death and to deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Ques. Has a believer to know the love of God come into his soul and filling it before he can make any headway?

J.T. Yes, "Tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope; and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us" (Romans 5:3 - 5). All that, I think, corresponds with Exodus 15, 16 and 17, but Numbers 21 has to do with chapters 7 and 8. Chapters 6, 7 and 8 present the truth from our side. Chapter 8 shows the believer taking possession of divinely-given territory.

Ques. Is it important to apprehend in the beginning in some measure the sufferings of Christ as the ground on which the Spirit is given

J.T. It is. It touches the heart to know that He had to be smitten. It was to meet the need of the soul, but then, the need of the soul being met by the Spirit, brings in another thing, and that is the enemy attacks. Satan attacks now through the flesh, so that the young believer begins to learn war. This is where he begins to learn it. God would not lead the Israelites by the way of the Philistines because they had not learned war, but now they have got to learn

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it; they can not escape doing so. That is a most important thing for young believers -- that you cannot escape learning war, but you begin it in yourself.

A.F.M. That is Amalek. That is very important. There is no outside attack until what is inside is overcome.

G.A.T. When do I get the Spirit and the power to meet this as a young believer?

J.T. It is when you get the Spirit that the attack comes. It was after the rock was smitten and the people drank that Amalek attacked. You are already furnished, but the thing is to see the power and to know the combination of circumstances under which it is used; first, Moses takes the rod and goes to the top of the hill. It is still the rod of God.

G.W.H. Reference here is to the rod with which he smote the river. That is not the sea, because it does not appear that he smote the sea, but he went out and smote the river. "Behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river" (Exodus 7:17), and that is the allusion, I thought, here. I wondered what was the significance in alluding to it that way.

J.T. I think it is a question of divine authority.

G.W.H. Exercised over the river in the first case.

A.M.H. The death of Christ changes the whole aspect and now the people thirst. They had been brought by the same rod through the Red Sea, but now the supplies no longer meet the requirements.

E.G.McA. Is that because we are on new territory? It needs a different kind of supply.

A.M.H. You have got the beginning of another life to satisfy.

A.L. Is Numbers 21 connected with life in the believer?

J.T. It is. The thought of life is introduced earlier in the chapter. He who looks lives.

A.L. He is not said to be cured.

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J.T. No, he lives, and then he moves forward and we have a reference to the book of the wars of the Lord (verse 14), meaning that there is a book in which military records are kept, exploits recorded. It is an encouragement to the believer that note is taken of the war. And then Beer comes into evidence and the Holy Spirit is, in type, formally recognised by a song.

A.L. It is striking that both in Romans and in Numbers 'springing' is the thought. There seems to be the springing up of life -- the springing up to eternal life in Romans, and here "Spring up, O well", so that immediately they begin to move toward the land.

J.T. That is a great point, I think. The life is taken account of earlier in the chapter and then the principle of the springing up, and a song; now the believer sees that he has a power whereby he may cope with all comers.

A.L. And that power is said to be in him.

W.M. Turning back to Exodus 17 again, do you think the introduction of Joshua would correspond with Galatians -- that it is hardly the normal work of the Spirit, but a necessity work -- the Spirit is against the flesh?

J.T. Yes, I think that there you come in contact with Christ for the first time as the Leader into Canaan. You are becoming accustomed to what will develop later into more extensive warfare. The knowledge of Joshua from this point of view has to be acquired early.

W.M. At the very beginning evidently.

J.T. It is a great thing, Christ known as the spiritual Leader, so that, although Galatians is not a normal condition, you have got sight of Joshua and that leads to what is normal.

W.M. He appears very briefly on the scene here.

J.T. If you get a sight of Joshua an element is introduced that serves you later. It will come in later, because Joshua is the hidden leader -- Christ

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known in a hidden way as the spiritual Leader of His people to put them into possession of their divine inheritance.

A.F.M. I notice there is a book in connection with Exodus 17. It says, "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua, for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven" (verse 14).

J.T. These are the elements that enter into the beginning of conflict in the believer. He has got his eye on Joshua, but then there is Moses with the rod. He has got the rod of God in his hand on high. There is Aaron and there is Hur. These all enter into the beginning of conflict in the believer. He learns war under the most favourable circumstances.

Rem. You were saying that the Spirit sheds the love of God abroad in our hearts. He shows you that God is for you.

J.T. You see the believer is learning. Joshua has come into his view and then the announcement of what is recorded in the book. That is a permanent thing to be referred to later. Anything recorded in a book is to be referred to later; it remains and the record is that Jehovah will make war with Amalek from generation to generation (verse 16). There the believer is set up on the principle of warfare, and there is to be no cessation of it. War with Amaek is to go on and God is doing it, so that there is no possibility of defeat; hence "Joshua discomfited Amalek"; then the altar is reared up, meaning, "The Lord my banner" (verse 15). Therefore, I fight on those lines and there is victory.

W.M. Evidently the Galatians were tired of the conflict and wanted a quicker way out of it.

E.G.McA. Who do you say Amalek represents?

J.T. I think it is Satan attacking me through the flesh.

A.F.M. My flesh or that of somebody else?

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J.T. My own flesh. The conflict begins in the believer.

R.S.S. Is that Galatians 5?

J.T. Galatians indicates, as our brother remarked, an abnormal state. They should have gone on to heavenly conflict. There it is "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Galatians 5:17). That is a poor state if it continues. Note, the flesh lusteth -- it is active; this does not mark a spiritual person; he puts to death his members which are on the earth -- he has it done.

R.S.S. But is Galatians 5:17 not true of us?

J.T. No doubt, but it is not a victorious state of things; it does not indicate the thing as it is in this chapter. A banner is set up. The Galatians had not the banner up. They were admitting the flesh; they were allowing it and making provision for it, and that was not the banner. God was warring with that thing from generation to generation and they were not warring with it.

W.M. Reducing the energy of the Spirit to the lowest possible place.

J.B-t. There was no sense of victory.

J.T. They were recognising the flesh instead of warring against it. The Spirit was against it, so that they should not do the things they desired. It was a question of living and walking by the Spirit.

J.B-t. You were speaking about Satan being behind the flesh. Sometimes one is apt to look at the flesh without the enemy who is behind it -- the power of Satan, would you say?

J.T. Just so.

E.G.McA. You remarked earlier that the rod with which Moses smote the rock represented the authority of God. How do you connect that with the Spirit being given to me? I would like to get hold of how

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I recognise the authority of God over me before I come to the place where I begin to follow voluntarily.

J.T. That is most important, because there is a sense of wholesome fear in the soul as you recognise the authority of God. It preserves us from looseness and lawlessness; that it is not simply that the Holy Spirit in me is endeavouring to check the flesh, but I am responsible to God that the flesh should be checked and I have got a fear if it is not.

A.L. So that in Numbers they were digging and singing. There was power and joy in it.

J.T. And it was at the direction of the lawgiver. The principle of law or authority is always there.

A.L. That scripture quoted in Galatians is not normal Christianity, is it?

J.T. That is what I thought. It is an abnormally low state of things. The apostle says, "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts" (Galatians 5:24). That is normal Christianity. What I have crucified has no power to act.

A.L. We have to recognise that "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4). If we have to meet Amalek, he is a weak person compared with the Spirit of God. We want to be in the digging line as well as in the singing line.

J.T. There is the authority of God in Moses' rod, but then there is alongside of that the uplifted hands of Moses, and with that the grace of the priest. There is intercession and the grace of the priest in Aaron, and then there is personal purity in Hur. All these things combined set the believer out in the most favourable circumstances in war.

A.F.M. And Joshua as leader.

J.T. Yes. He has come in as the spiritual leader of the people.

A.M.H. Aaron and Hur suggest our laying hold of what is found in the Lord. There the saints begin to apprehend what can be received from the Lord.

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J.T. Aaron would no doubt suggest the grace that the soul is conscious of in all this, but with all that, you need personal purity.

A.M.H. "Lifting up holy hands" (1 Timothy 2:8) and all that sort of thing. I like what you said about fear. It is an element we perhaps do not give enough attention to. His authority and power are exercised in government. Apart from that, we would drift into thinking that the Spirit is going to carry us through things without exercise on our side.

J.T. I think it brings a moral element into the soul.

G.A.T. A great many are very clear as to forgiveness of sins, but not so many are clear about this question. If you raise the question as to whether they have got the Spirit, they are not just so clear in answering. Why is that?

J.T. I think very few understand conflict. No doubt there is the working of the flesh, but the combination of things that God has instituted whereby I am to meet all this is not understood, so that Exodus 17 is most important for young Christians.

A.M.H. No doubt this conflict also comes to some extent from without, that is, the enemy manoeuvres things to appeal to us, or to bring about a state of fear and discouragement. Especially would he cause us to fear, perhaps, to confess the Lord. Then we do not find salvation; we do not get the help of the Spirit.

A.F.M. It would help the older ones of us, too, if we saw that this warfare does not cease.

J.T. I think the banner that is reared up would mean that I am on that line of warfare. God will make war with Amalek -- it is God announcing that He will not admit of Amalek. He will help the saint at all times against Satan working through his flesh. You can count on God. Even the oldest of us have to humbly admit that the thing is there; that Satan

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attacks us through the flesh. Well, God says, I will help you.

A.L. Is Amalek not rather different from the flesh in us? Is it not in connection with the children of Israel in their progress toward the land? Is Amalek not God's enemy?

J.T. He is, but he represents that feature of Satan's operations -- he works through the flesh.

A.L. I see that, only I thought the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh, was rather different from Amalek.

J.T. In the type it is Satan acting through the flesh. He comes in early in the believer's history. Many do not admit it, you know. Many of us do not admit the constant conflict there is and the defeats, not seeing that God has provided a combination of things which insure victory if they are adhered to. The first is the authority of God as we have in Romans 7:25: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord". It is through Jesus Christ our Lord. Deliverance is in that way.

H.B.W. Do you think that it is the mind of the Lord that we should be educated in warfare in this way -- not an offensive, but defensive warfare, so that we might learn the resources? Then do you think we would go on, perhaps, to offensive warfare?

J.T. That is the thing, I am sure, so that the young believer graduates into "A good soldier of Jesus Christ" (2 Timothy 2:3).

H.B.W. I thought perhaps the Lord allowed the enemy to come up so that we could prove all He could be for us.

J.T. Obviously. Then you discover all these things -- the authority of God over your soul that keeps you in His fear. You say, It is the flesh, but nevertheless I am responsible and I may suffer if I do not judge it. But then there is the priestly grace of Christ, and I think Hur would be purity. The

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element of purity, or holiness, is always present, so that you begin to abhor the thing that is there.

R.S.S. Prayer is frequently connected in Scripture with that condition of soul. "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" (Psalm 66:18). Is it not rather remarkable that Exodus 17 and Numbers 21 both come in answer to murmuring? They chided with Moses because they had not water to drink, and then Numbers 21 begins much in the same way. They were discouraged, and God's answer to all that was the gift of the Spirit.

J.T. So that when you come to Numbers 21 the discouragement by the way brings out speaking against God and against Moses. This is a most serious situation and comes in at the end of the wilderness. It shows how incorrigible the flesh is after all this experience of warfare with it. It nevertheless is there and we have to see that it is dealt with -- not only that I have power to compete with it, but that it is dealt with judicially. The thing itself is dealt with by God. Not simply is He warring with it; He is dealing with the thing effectively and finally in the uplifting -- not now of His rod, but the uplifting of the Son of man. He reminds us in Numbers 21 that the thing has to be dealt with in relation to the source whence sin originated, not simply what man is, but the source, because the allusion is to Genesis 3. Now we are going back to the beginning. You see, in Numbers 21 we are going back to the beginning of things. "The devil sinneth from the beginning", John says (1 John 3:8). We have got to go back to the source of the thing and see whence it has come.

A.F.M. What are these fiery serpents? "The Lord sent fiery serpents among the people" (Numbers 21:6).

J.T. I suppose they would represent the power of Satan in a most effective way, to bring home to the people what sin is. How few of us have any idea of

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what sin is! I do something -- well, I have done that and it is right that I should own it, but what is sin, and whence is it? These are questions that have to be faced.

A.F.M. Here it is that Israel is bitten. I suppose it is an important time in our histories when we realise what that bite is.

J.T. And whence it is.

W.M. It is more the origin of it.

E.G.McA. Would you say that in Exodus 17 I might be occupied by overcoming things in myself, but when I come to Numbers 21 I begin to see what sin is from God's side?

J.T. You gradually come to see it in relation to God.

W.M. Do you not think that the point in question is the assurance of complete victory? The conditions of victory are established by the death of Christ, and with the priesthood of Aaron, the purity of Hur, and the power of Joshua on the scene, conditions are established to insure victory. In Numbers it is more experimental.

J.T. Just so. They realise what sin is -- a most important thing -- so the Lord in John brings this in, because He would have the believer clear as to everything. He is born anew, but then He says, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up" (John 3:14). That takes up this passage here and Genesis 3. He groups these things together in teaching Nicodemus. Nicodemus ought to have known, of course, but he did not, and the Lord is grouping things together to show how God has dealt with sin in its source. The thing is dealt with not only in what I may have proved in myself, but what it is in itself. God has dealt with sin according to what it is in itself, you see, going back to the source of it.

W.M. The whole element is dealt with.

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A.L. You say that this refers to the serpent?

J.T. That is the reference. It is to take you back to Genesis 3.

A.L. Moses in the wilderness lifted up the serpent. We get back to the source of sin and the one in whom it existed.

J.T. So that the believer now, you see, has come into the light of the Spirit in Numbers 21. He has arrived, typically, at an understanding of what sin is in its enormity -- God taking it back to its source -- and that it is dealt with effectively in the Son of man lifted up.

A.L. And the striking thing is that the one who lived is the one who looked. First of all they were bitten. We have to be bitten, have we not? We have to know what the serpent's bite is.

J.T. You have to feel the thing in its terribleness. When Moses spoke to the Lord of the people not believing him (Exodus 4:1), the Lord said, "What is that in thine hand?" "Cast it on the ground" (Exodus 4:2,3). Moses released his hold on the rod; it went on the ground and it became a serpent -- a terrible thing. There the thing is; it is before your eyes in its enormity. It is not simply that man is wicked; the thing is there in its nakedness. The thing that I am tempted by is there before my eyes in its awfulness.

A.M.H. That is the thing that has been condemned so that all our activity might be found in divine things.

J.T. That was what I was thinking; when we come to see what sin is in itself and that we have been an instrument of it, we loathe ourselves. 1 Timothy 1:13 shows how Paul judged himself in this way.

W.M. And so freedom from it lies in the Spirit.

A.F.M. If you follow the type further, the next thing is, "Put now thine hand into thy bosom" (Exodus 4:6).

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J.T. There you get the other thing. You get at the heart of God, for the Spirit of God does not leave us simply with what is negative, so then the next thing is, "Put now thine hand into thy bosom". Well, he puts it into his bosom and he pulls it out. It is leprous -- a most hideous thing. God shows us what sin is in its activity in the serpent and in its hideousness and uncleanliness in leprosy.

W.M. It comes out in a leprous hand.

J.T. Yes, think what an awful thing it is -- God presenting it before your eyes in its worst features!

W.M. A serpent and a leper are two of the worst things you can think of.

J.T. The next thing is he puts it in again and takes it out and "It was turned again as his other flesh" (Exodus 4:7). The bosom would speak of love. John's gospel brings out the heart of God. God is the source of all that is good and blessed, whereas Satan is the source of all that is wicked, so we see the two things in their workings.

A.M.H. God wants us to have a hand. We ought to have power here, but the power of the Spirit -- not the power that is directed by Satan. In regard to activities, we are not to be influenced by evil. God has judged the whole state of sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3).

J.T. It comes out here. As you say, if I take my hand out of the bosom, that hand is to be an evidence of what is within. I know God now; I know his heart; I love Him, and my hand is used accordingly.

A.M.H. In sending His Son, the love of God is expressed.

J.T. John says, "The only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (John 1:18). That is the heart of God; the Son has declared Him as in His bosom.

A.M.H. Do you think we have these two elements to help us? First, the authority of God operative in

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your conscience. If the conscience is not regulated, a man would go wrong, but we are not all conscience. We have a heart, and there you need the love of God to take possession. Do you think those two things would be a safeguard -- authority bearing on the conscience and the love of God satisfying the heart?

J.T. So here it is, "God sending his own Son"; very touching!

A.M.H. "In the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh".

J.T. The Spirit is the power henceforth. You have the heart of God now. He has dealt with sin in its source -- "sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh". It is condemned in the flesh, and now the Spirit is brought out in Romans 8 as the power -- like the hand brought out of the bosom. Then He works in that relation, bringing out what is good and blessed.

A.M.H. So you exercise in relation to God what is produced in the Spirit.

E.G.McA. Then is it not this power that I become occupied with and so take territory?

J.T. That was what I was thinking. In the passage we read it says, "Ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father". That is what the believer is saying. Now that involves that I have acquired territory; I have come into relationship with God and I know it. It is not simply light to me; I am crying "Abba, Father". In Galatians 4:6 it says, "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father". The Spirit Himself says it there, but in Romans we say it by the Spirit. It is from our side, and that is what I take to be acquired territory. I am now dwelling in the thing I have come into subjectively.

H.D. The Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of adoption; (chapter 5:15).

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Having the Spirit involves that you are like Christ and you enjoy divine love in the relationship of sons to the Father.

J.T. In Romans 8 I not only see that God is my Father, but by the Spirit of adoption I am crying, "Abba, Father".

W.M. It is stupendous.

A.L. That is also connected with life.

J.T. Well, you are brought into the family; you are consciously in family relationships.

G.A.T. Does this refer to those who are advanced or does it refer to young Christians?

J.T. I think this is the normal way in which the believer as a believer comes into the truth, comes into acquired territory. He learns to acquire territory.

J.B-t. The soul would begin with the love of God shed abroad in the heart.

J.T. That is the basis subjectively of what follows.

A.F.M. Do we have to go through Romans 5 to 8 before we are conscious that we have the Spirit?

J.T. Yes; we are thus characterised by Him. Chapter 7 is very important, because it is where we learn to deal with things inside of us.

Rem. The difficulty with young believers would come in there.

J.T. The seventh is perhaps the most complex of all Scripture, but it is intelligible because of the things that are within me. Understanding this chapter, I deal with sin in my members with authority; I know what it is, and that God has condemned it. Deliverance is through Jesus Christ our Lord.

E.G.McA. Do we not get help in chapter 8 in the word 'we'? As a young Christian I might be occupied with my struggle as an individual, but "We cry Abba, Father". It was the children of Israel who took possession of the cities. God brings me in His love in touch with those where His love is known and enjoyed.

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A.M.H. The young believer draws his support from that source; the Spirit is given and he is replenished. I mean in that way he is able to go into the conflict, knowing there is both food and water here before him.

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READING (2)

Colossians 1

A.F.M. Would you give the connecting link between the epistle to the Romans and that to the Colossians?

J.T. It lies in the Spirit. As we had it already, the Holy Spirit comes in administratively, that is, under the Lord, and sheds abroad the love of God in our hearts. That becomes a basis for formation. Souls usually never get on to the line of God's purpose save as they understand spiritual formation, and that involves inward conflict.

G.A.T. What do you mean by inward conflict?

J.T. What we had this morning. Satan operates in the flesh, and as we understand the provision made, as typified in Exodus 17, we shall overcome by the Spirit, and in the process formation begins to take place, so that there is the acquirement of territory. We have to dismiss material thoughts (geographical territory) from our minds, but we have to understand the acquirement of territory -- not exactly final, not Canaan, but nevertheless territory in which we can dwell, which implies that we love God.

A.F.M. Was there not more territory acquired than what we were looking at this morning?

J.T. Yes, a very large extent of territory, which the book of Judges in a very forcible way outlines as having been in possession of Israel for hundreds of years (Judges 11:12,13). The enemy was disputing it and seeking to recover it, but Jephthah outlines it as acquired by Israel and in their possession.

E.H.T. Is there a distinction between formation and possession of divine territory?

J.T. Formation really involves that we have taken possession of certain territory in which we may

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dwell, and I think that the verses read this morning (Romans 8:1 - 17) indicate that territory, that is, we cry "Abba, Father", by the Spirit. We are in conscious relationship with God as our Father.

Ques. Is this territory past the wilderness?

J.T. No, it is at the confines of the land, but in the wilderness, because Romans does not take us out of the wilderness, but it is controlled from the land and never surrendered. Canaan is the final thought (inheritance), but this is territory which is of great importance to control. Young people come into it, so that in the early part of Numbers 21 they destroyed certain cities, but in the latter part they take possession of them and dwell in them, so they have a footing. They have a dwelling place, and then the Holy Spirit, having brought us to that point, where we have a dwelling-place spiritually, gives us in the three succeeding chapters (Numbers 22, 23 and 24) a divine view of the saints as possessing the Spirit and as possessing this dwelling-place. First, they are seen as dwelling alone, which is an important thing for young believers. They are to dwell alone; they are not to be numbered among the nations (Numbers 23:9). That is a point that comes in here, and then the shout of a king is amongst them (Numbers 23:21). There is power there. Their king is "higher than Agag" (Numbers 24:7), meaning that there is power subjectively greater than the power of Satan in the flesh. These are all spiritual thoughts that enter into the experience of the believer at this juncture, so that he becomes consciously superior to what is around him. He is separate and the shout of a king is there, and, mark, it is not God's king here. Everything is from the standpoint of the people, because they have begun to exercise power, having become conscious of it; and this power gradually develops into what is superior and higher than the power of the flesh -- Agag. And then the Star and the Sceptre in the last prophecy of

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Balaam (Numbers 24:17) stretches on to the millennial day. All that, I think, in these three chapters of Numbers, is of great moment as setting us up in conscious power, which I think corresponds with the second part of Romans 8. There is conscious victory not only from the standpoint of what God has done, but what we are conscious of in ourselves, and the epistle to the Colossians is based, I think, on that. It is based on the work of God in the saints. What Paul writes has reference to his knowledge of their love to all the saints, and their faith and their love in the Spirit, and that the gospel was fruitful in them. The gospel had borne fruit in them.

A.F.M. According to Romans 8, we are in the enjoyment of the love of God, and now this is an advance -- the Colossians loved all the saints. Is that the point?

J.T. Yes, they loved all saints, not merely those local to Colosse. They were not marked by localism. Many of our meetings are marked by extreme localism, which is not in keeping with the work of God, because the work of God is one whole and has relation to all. The apostle notes that they had love, not only for saints, but all saints, and furthermore, the love was in the Spirit. The only mention of the Spirit is with reference to the love they had -- it was that kind of love.

W.M. I suppose the Spirit loves to hide Himself behind His work.

J.T. Therefore it is the work of God we have before us in the saints.

A.F.M. Does that connect with the land somewhat -- the thought of loving all the saints?

J.T. It leads up to it. It is a matter of great moment that we should be delivered from localism. One who loves all the saints is not more concerned about his own district than about other districts, because all are under the eye of the Lord, and this

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epistle is to lead up to that -- to what is universal.

W.M. He has not the same responsibility toward others, but he has love for them all.

J.T. Yes, and he is concerned about them all. The nearer we get to the Lord the more we will love like the apostle. He was concerned about all the assemblies.

E.H.T. But you would be concerned about your local assembly first?

J.T. You are, but as you advance in spiritual power and restrict yourself to a locality, you are apt to dominate it, whereas the whole assembly is the outlet for increased spiritual power. You gradually leave the local things with others, because it is the mind of the Lord that as we increase in spiritual power our responsibility should increase, and we should take on the whole assembly. This epistle is not so extensive as Ephesians. The spirit of Ephesians is universal; it is not a question of what is local. Colossians is local, but it is not local like Corinthians. The letter to Colosse was to be read at Laodicea, and the letter to Laodicea was to be read at Colosse (Colossians 4:16), meaning, I judge, that it had a bearing toward the district.

A.F.M. We qualify in our own locality first, but with the idea of spreading out to the whole assembly.

J.T. I think that is the way the truth works with us.

E.H.T. The evidence would come out in the prayer meeting.

J.T. Yes, and it comes out in the distribution of material means too. Where the saints were first called Christians (Antioch, Acts 11:26), there was a universal thought -- they began to distribute for the need of the brethren elsewhere. The need at Jerusalem was brought to their attention. "Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul" (Acts 11:30).

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G.A.T. I agree that what you say is perfectly right, but somehow I feel better over the prosperity of Chicago than I might over other places.

J.T. That is right, but if a man confines himself to a locality, as he increases in spiritual power, he is almost sure to exercise undue influence -- an influence which should be exercised in a wider sphere.

A.M.H. It is almost impossible to avoid that unless there is the embracing of what is wider. Would not love in the Spirit wipe away all sorts of distinctions, natural and social, for instance? There is a good deal of the social tie and appreciation of one another naturally, as well as of what is spiritual, but love in the Spirit would take us out of what is national as well as what is natural.

E.A.S. At the Lord's supper we have the loaf, and yet how often we prove at the prayer meeting that we are very local. It is not a piece of bread -- it is a loaf.

J.T. And it specifically says "The bread which we break" (1 Corinthians 10:16), meaning all the saints -- one loaf. "We being many are one bread, and one body" (1 Corinthians 10:17). It does not say the bread which ye break. That would be local, but "The bread which we break, ... we being many".

Ques. Does not your own local meeting come first?

J.T. No doubt you begin there. I was speaking particularly of the work of God in a man. Love to all the saints will lead to care for them all, and, as our brother remarked, we have the breaking of bread, which involves all the saints, that is, the whole assembly. The meeting for prayer should correspond with that -- all should be embraced, and so also should the distribution of any means that we have. Anything that we have should be held in that way.

H.D. If we are formed by the Spirit of God in divine love, our hearts would take in what divine love has taken in.

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E.G.McA. How would this undue influence be prevented by one who is making spiritual progress?

J.T. His increased energy would find scope and therefore he goes farther afield.

E.H.T. Does not the Lord open up the way for the person who reaches that point, so that the influence he has accrued flows out?

J.T. Quite. Epaphras is an example of that enlargement. He carried the Colossians in his heart, but he was with the apostle Paul and laboured with him. He was a Colossian, but "a bondman of Christ". Onesimus was also a Colossian -- "a faithful and beloved brother".

G.W.H-n. Having heard of their faith and love, Paul now proceeds to pray for them, that they might be qualified for the position in which they were set.

J.T. Yes, that they should be, as he says, "Filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing", and then "Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness". This is all with a view to the saints taking on what is distinctly heavenly.

A.L. Does it work up to Christ?

J.T. I think that is what he had on his mind. One great feature of Colossians is to bring us into correspondence with Christ.

A.L. In regard to formation, would you allow one to use the illustration of the lilies -- how they grow? We should not be like little boys who are growing plants and who pull them up to look at them. In Colossians, one judges, the object is Christ in you and Christ everything; one has been struck with that scripture of the Lord's, "Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these" (Luke 12:27). I have

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connected that thought with the growth and formation in Colossians.

J.S. You would put the subject of prayer alongside of that, and you might speak of meditation or rumination. The apostle turns to prayer relative to his ministry.

A.L. I was a little hindered in regard to what was really meant by formation until I saw that it is Christ that is to be everything, and if Christ is not everything I do not see how the lily would grow.

J.T. The word formation is a good one; it is distinct from creation. Creation is making something out of nothing, but formation is according to a model, I think. We have the two words in the beginning of Genesis. Creation is God acting of Himself to bring in something, but formation has reference to what is there, to what exists.

A.L. "The worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3).

J.T. Well, that is "framed", but the man was said to be formed. He was formed out of the clay, but the clay was there -- the material was there. Of course, he was created too, because the word 'created' is used more in regard to man than it is in regard to anything else, but the word 'formed' is also used and I think that it has reference to a model.

G.A.T. Would the model be "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26)?

J.T. Yes, God had Christ in His mind. Now His thought is to bring us into correspondence with Christ.

A.F.M. Speaking of Genesis again, would the thought of likeness and image come in in this epistle, as in the opening of Genesis 5?

J.T. I think so. The idea of image now must depend on likeness -- on our being formed like Christ.

R.S.S. You get that in Romans 8:29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the

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first born among many brethren". Is that the thought of formation?

J.T. I think so. There is a model. There is that in the mind of God which He would bring us to, and so here the Lord is said to be "The image of the invisible God". You have God perfectly represented.

A.F.M. "Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2). Would that fit in here?

J.T. It precedes this really, but, of course, leads up to it.

W.M. We are not in the wilderness here.

J.T. No, we are over Jordan.

W.M. We are risen with Christ.

G.W.H-n. Where do you bring in likeness here?

J.T. I think it would come in in chapter 3. These remarks are preliminary, showing what existed at Colosse and what existed in the mind of the apostle for them -- his own exercises for them. It is to be observed that they were not, as far as the evidence goes, an apostolic church. They were not formed by his ministry, that is, directly. They were, I suppose, formed by it indirectly, but he had not been there apparently. He is going on a report that he had heard of them and so he has his own exercises about them, and he gives expression to these exercises in his prayer "Giving thanks unto the Father ... Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son".

E.H.T. Would you say that up to this point there has been a work in them to a certain extent, and now they were ready for something else?

J.T. Yes; and there must have been present in his thoughts the danger that exists at this point, because we are very apt to settle down in a certain state reached, but he wished them to go further; so, having arrived at the thought of the Father, who

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had made them meet to be partakers of the inheritance and who had translated them into the kingdom of His dear Son, he speaks of the Son; he presents the Person in all His greatness to us, so that we might have before us an object great enough to command us in mind and heart and draw us over to Himself.

A.M.H. All this would suppose a certain capacity, which has now been reached; the Colossians were capable of apprehending what he was going to unfold. Do you not think that in Romans there is more the making room for growth? The apostle supposes that the Spirit has place with us and we have now sufficient capacity to apprehend Christ. I think that growth in its proper sense begins there -- where we can begin to take hold of positive elements. One thought that is pressed very much is that of endurance, and the bringing in of the Person before their hearts would be really an incentive to them to move forward. Would you agree with that?

J.T. Yes, indeed, so you have the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. We might introduce the book of Proverbs here -- for the education of believers (young believers particularly), it is a book of immense importance. The kingdom of the Son of the Father's love is undoubtedly a reference to Solomon, who was nurtured in the affections of his father and his mother. We are nourished in an authoritative way and yet in an affectionate way, which brings about a condition that is befitting to all these great things that God intends to bring us into.

A.M.H. So that we should appreciate the name that Jehovah gave Solomon. I suppose under David we perhaps find it a little irksome, but here all is fully appreciated and we see how beneficial it is; the king is the One who is loved of the Father. We delight in His kingdom.

J.T. What a kingdom it is!

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E.H.T. Would you say it is brought into view by conflict, where divine affections for one another are?

J.T. What is before us now is the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love, that is to say, we are under a rule that is most benign. It is a rule of affection; but, nevertheless, there is authority. There is little or nothing about war in Solomon's kingdom, but nevertheless the kingdom was there and all under him would enjoy the blessings of his kingdom, but they would never lose sight of the fact that Solomon was king.

W.M. It is significant, too, that Solomon had great largeness of heart and spiritual wisdom and understanding, and those are the things spoken of here that the apostle desires for these saints in connection with the kingdom.

A.F.M. I think that what follows would be an incentive to be under this blessed rule of the Son of the Father's love -- the opening out of the greatness of His Person. It is prefaced by verse 14: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins". Such an One died for us.

J.T. There is every incentive to recognise Him in whom we have these things. You can understand how every true Israelite would regard Solomon. What wealth Solomon had brought into the kingdom! Every one in the kingdom would benefit from that. It was a wonderful kingdom.

A.L. We get the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God, but the form here is the kingdom of the Son of His love.

J.T. I think it comes in here thus because subjection is already effected. David had brought about subjection; he was a king against whom there was no rising up. That is the idea of the kingdom as in David, so in the genealogy in Matthew, as the Spirit arrives at David, it is "David the king" (Matthew 1:6); the point in the kingdom is subjection, but here it is

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the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love. We are under His influence now, and things are brought in immediately which should form an immense incentive to us to love Him. We have redemption and the forgiveness of sins, and then he goes on to speak about the wonderful things that attach to Him. He is the Image of the invisible God, the Head of all principality and power, and Head of the body; that is to say, every dignity belongs to Christ.

E.H.T. Would it be right to say that here it is a question of what Christ is to God, not so much what He is to us?

J.T. It is what He is Himself. The apostle is bringing forward the Person now and the things that attach to Him.

A.M.H. I suppose we are really coming to headship. The Lord is Head to us and we delight to be guided by His affections, His love. Nevertheless there are the elements you were speaking of. It is still a kingdom, and authority is still to be recognised there.

J.T. It becomes, so to speak, easy for the soul to come in for headship when you see the wonderful things that attach to the Lord.

G.A.T. I like what you said about loving Him. It takes me on farther in my thoughts.

J.T. Yes, it is the greatness of the Person here. When it is a question of going into Canaan, God would bring in every possible incentive so that we might go in by attraction, because that is really how we go in -- we follow the ark.

H.D. "Partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light" -- is that linked up with Romans 8:17, "Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ"?

J.T. Yes, only here you are made fit; the emphasis here is on your being made meet for that in light.

Ques. Is not the word 'translated' here unusual?

J.T. At this point you see the importance of being

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delivered from the authority of darkness. Many are held by darkness, it having authority in their consciences. Things that are antiquated and that have a great reputation among men have weight on the consciences of saints and they are held by them. Now, the Father delivers from all that, so that we can see how the thought is to set us free so that we might be entirely under the influence of the Son of His love.

E.H.T. The dignity and greatness of the Person attracts us and leads us on.

J.T. There are two sides to the kingdom -- that connected with the Lord, which has a bearing on the conscience, and that connected with the Son, which has a bearing on the affections. Colossians has reference to the affections -- the Son of the Father's love. As we remarked about Solomon, David brought in subjugation, but Solomon held sway by his influence, and so his teaching is addressed to us as in known relationship. He addresses us as sons in the book of Proverbs, so that in this teaching we become accustomed to family relationships and the things that belong to these relationships. Wisdom is entwined in all the instruction that you get and so we gradually come to take our places in that in which is to be displayed the all-various wisdom of God (Ephesians 3:10). That is what we are being led up to here.

Ques. Why is it that we do not have much of the Spirit at this point?

J.T. Because it is His work that is in view. It is a question now of the work of God in you, having brought you to a point where the Person of Christ can be taken account of and where you are prepared to come under His influence and teaching.

A.M.H. He supposes here that the teaching has become pleasant to us. It has entered into the heart and we are attracted by it. I think that what was said about the Proverbs is extremely attractive. He

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addresses us as sons with all the affection that a father would.

A.F.M. Does the book of Proverbs bring about a son, is that the idea?

J.T. It assumes that you are a son, I think, and teaches you on that line. Therefore it is family instruction.

A.L. Would you not say it brings about a wise son? "A wise son maketh a glad father" (Proverbs 15:20). The wise son has, to use a human expression, taken colour from his father.

J.T. I think that we have in the gospel of Matthew the paternal side emphasised, and in the gospel of Luke we have the maternal side emphasised; and I think that Mark fits in as a sort of product of the two gospels. You have a Son in Mark -- no genealogy of Christ, no royal line nor human line. In Matthew we have the royal line and in Luke the human line, but in Mark 1:1 it is not either, but "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God". -- "Jesus Christ, Son of God"; not as in John. -- "In the beginning". Applying it to us, Christ has in Mark a place as Model, as one comes to the age of service; and I think Proverbs, rightly understood, brings about such a man -- it brings about in us a state of development and maturity that can be employed in the testimony.

A.F.M. The idea of one being fully in the good of sonship, which I think what you have said beautifully explains.

J.T. Yes, no one really is efficient in the testimony unless he understands, I think, that the bearing of Mark in that sense is the instruction of one brought up under the paternal affections and the maternal affections. "For I was my father's son, tender and only beloved in the sight of my mother" (Proverbs 4:3), so that he is qualified to bring forward the Father and the truth that is intended to develop us into

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sonship and maturity, so that we should be efficient in the testimony.

A.F.M. To be associated with such an One as that.

J.T. The Lord selected certain ones (twelve) that they might be with Him and that He might send them forth to preach. You can understand that the influence of a "greater than Solomon" would be exercised over them as they were with Him.

W.M. The efficiency of the sons comes in in the last chapter of Proverbs.

J.T. In the "virtuous woman"?

W.M. Where the virtuous woman is magnified and the husband gets the credit.

J.T. So that the great problem of knowledge is by a man who pretends to know nothing, but he raises questions, "What is his name, and what is his son s name?" (Proverbs 30:4). That is Agur. He felt he knew less than anybody, but he could speak about what God could do. He could gather the wind in His fists and bind the waters in a garment. He knew that and he raises questions as to God -- "What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?" That is the thing, what can you tell about God and about His Son?

A.M.H. At the beginning of this line Agur says, "I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the Holy". He had not the knowledge of putting things together on divine lines, but it is not the thought of a lawless man. He has come to the point in his soul that everything has to be of a different pattern and he wants to put things together on that line. The end of the chapter works it out.

G.A.T. Would you say, in going out in service, that we go out in the highest character?

J.T. I think what has been noticed in Mark is very important. It is "The beginning of the gospel of

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Jesus Christ, the Son of God". We go out as sons. Do you agree with that?

A.M.H. It is extremely attractive; how the thought of the Son of God holds the soul! It brings the Lord in in an altogether different line, an altogether different kind of Man, different affections, different way of speaking, different outlook. I was thinking of Him here as set above all principality and power -- what a world you are introduced to! You immediately feel everything has to be done for another kind of world, not a pattern of things here.

G.W.H-n. Is that why Christ is presented here in this light, to attract us and to move us and form us in relation to that world?

J.T. I think so. The greatest things are presented: "By him to reconcile all things unto himself". All the fulness was pleased to dwell there. It is not simply His relation to the saints, but to all things; that is, you have the full presentation of Christ to the heart, and that surely is enough to control us. We can take Him to be Head. If He has created this great universe that runs on for thousands of years, surely we can take Him to be Head.

Rem. Should we not try to know the Lord here from a priestly standpoint? We have Him to minister to us, as in Romans, but "The image of the invisible God" suggests something that God has waited for. Do we want to take character from Him?

J.T. You see how, having spoken of the divine thought to reconcile all things to Himself, things in heaven and things in earth, he had the state of the saints in Colosse particularly in view, and perhaps all Gentile believers, when he says "And you ... hath he reconciled".

A.M.H. It is put stronger here than in 2 Corinthians 5:18. There it is "reconciled us". It is not quite so personal as 'You ... hath He reconciled'. It suggests those who can appreciate it. You

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come to that side of the truth. As was remarked, the Christian position, would you say?

J.T. Yes. In Ephesians 2:16 you have reconciliation of both Jew and Gentile in one body, but here the apostle is evidently speaking either to a local company or a certain section of the saints, so that, as you said, it comes home to us -- "You ... hath he reconciled".

A.F.M. It is already accomplished. What is the thought of bringing it in here?

J.T. I think because it is necessary to the truth in view, the truth in the mind of the Spirit to bring out. The great fact of reconciliation should have its place and the way it occurred -- "In the body of his flesh through death". Again you have, I think, an incentive to love Him. We are not told how all things are to be reconciled, but we know, of course, that it is through death, but when He is making a local application he brings in "The body of his flesh through death".

G.W.H-n. "To present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight" -- marvellous setting of reconciliation, is it not?

J.T. It is indeed.

Rem. If it is reconciliation in His body through death, it is something He does.

J.T. Oh, yes, it is what is effected in the death of Christ.

J.B-t. Is there not a great lack of desire to learn the things where Christ is, and these things are given so that we might be drawn in a wonderful way in our desires to enter there?

J.T. All through these statements it seems as if the Spirit of God would bring in incentives to affection.

A.L. And Christ is presented, in a sense, in a higher way in this epistle than in Ephesians, is it not so? There is more spoken of His own personal glory.

J.T. Yes, in that sense. What you will observe in

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these two epistles, that is, Colossians and Ephesians, is that God is presented as the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the gospels He is not spoken of as His God save on the cross and in the message through Mary, as far as I remember. He addresses God as "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46), but He usually refers -- indeed always refers -- to the Father, but in the message to Mary it is "My Father and your Father, my God and your God" (John 20:17). In these two epistles He is taken account of as Man. God is His God and Father, but nevertheless Deity is attributed to Him, particularly in this epistle. When it is a question of incentive to the saints to follow Christ, the Holy Spirit brings in divine attributes so that the Person should control the mind and heart.

E.H.T. You made the remark that following Christ up to this point is formation.

J.T. It is a question of following Him over Jordan -- not in the wilderness, but over Jordan, because you come now to the last great barrier between the soul and the divine territory, and many draw back at it, many do not go over. This epistle is to the end that we should go over.

A.F.M. Follow the ark, as you were saying. This section presents the greatness and glory of Christ in every sphere, whether in heaven or on earth, or in death. He is pre-eminent in every respect. Is that the thought?

J.T. That is the idea, I think.

E.G.McA. If I do not follow the ark, Christ, I shall not know anything about the administration of this kind of kingdom, shall I?

J.T. No, but I think the administration of the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love is largely to prepare you for what is beyond, for what is over Jordan; having brought the thing down to our being presented, as it says, "Holy and unblameable and

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unreproveable in his sight", he comes to an 'if', so that you can see we are on corrective ground. The epistle is corrective and also preventive.

G.A.T. Would you give the marks of a Christian who has not gone over after the ark?

J.T. He is occupied, if he has come up to this point, with his cattle, etc., would you say?

A.M.H. I thought that was what detained us. If we go in for what is heavenly, it means giving up what is earthly. The earthly thing is so plausible that we are inclined to settle down after we have arrived at a certain point of deliverance, pious, but not going on to the divine thought.

J.T. Such believers have acquired certain territory and you have regard for them.

W.M. Three things deter people. They are mentioned by the woman at the well -- "himself, and his children and his cattle" (John 4:12). That is also a description of Job at the beginning: himself, children and cattle, that describes man. That is what detains them on the wilderness side of the Jordan.

E.G.McA. "Who mind earthly things" (Philippians 3:19), is that it?

J.T. Quite so.

A.L. The woman at the well of Sychar discovered the right source. We are making no movement in any direction unless this is what we are absorbed by in our affections, and I am not prepared to go into death unless in the divinely prepared way -- following the ark, Christ as Head. As the eunuch said, "Here is water" (Acts 8:36), he would follow the Lord through death.

J.T. The 'if' here becomes very solemn, because it shows you that God may have wrought with us, yet there is the possibility of not holding the truth in its entirety and in its full bearing. "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have

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heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven". There is the danger, you see, notwithstanding that we have come to this point, of not holding the thing in its entirety.

A.M.H. Jonathan would illustrate that. He was moved greatly by David up to a point, but when it is a question of things appearing weak in the kingdom he falls away. Shimei enters into the kingdom of Solomon; his heart is not really there, and the result is he comes under the judicial dealings of Solomon.

G.W.H-n. Then there is Barzillai.

J.T. Yes, I think he had affection for David, but would not go over. He was too old he thought, and this, of course, has a spiritual significance.

W.M. Was there a moral state at Colosse that gives rise to these statements?

J.T. There must have been. The exercises of Epaphras (chapter 4:12,13) indicate this. There was a danger of not holding the Head. That is what we will see, I think, in chapter 2. In this chapter we see the great correspondence there was in Paul to the Lord; that is, you have one known amongst the saints, ministering on earth, who corresponded to the Lord, even in regard to sufferings for the assembly. You have Christ brought in in that way in Paul as he goes on to say, "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake". You see how they were reconciled in the body of Christ through death, the body of His flesh, and Paul is following on, so that they had the thing brought near.

A.M.H. How do you mean the thing was there?

J.T. What marked the Lord and His love for them, "Reconciled in the body of his flesh through death". The apostle Paul was following on that line, he rejoiced in sufferings for them.

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A.M.H. Paul in that way would become an incentive to their love.

J.T. That is what I thought.

W.M. Do you think this goes as far as the acceptance of reconciliation by the Colossians, or simply the statement that it has been effected?

J.T. It is more that it has been effected, I think. It is what God had effected so that they might be presented before Him according to His nature.

A.F.M. It has a present purpose in view that they perhaps, and ourselves, have not fully apprehended nor answered to.

A.L. Where does all this come in in connection with our subject -- the present truth in connection with the assembly?

J.T. This chapter is from the divine side. Christ is presented in His personal greatness and work, and then what marked the great minister of the assembly. The thing is brought near to your view when it is seen in a man actually living amongst us.

A.M.H. What form would this suffering take -- "In my flesh for his body's sake"?

J.T. I think the daily sufferings that he endured because of the saints, because of the assembly, Christ's body. He had before him the assembly, so that the basis is laid here clearly for the truth which we have before us. Paul is simply bringing out what a place the body had in his affections, and how he suffered for it and for the truth referring to it.

R.S.S. That is, the Lord as here in His flesh and blood condition suffered for the assembly, and now Paul, being in this condition, went through similar suffering, also for the assembly.

J.T. That is the idea.

W.M. The body is looked at here in a Gentile aspect, and the persecution was from the Jews.

J.T. The Acts would show historically what all this meant, but the point is that it is a further

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incentive for the saints to be interested, that the minister of the assembly is in accord with Christ Himself. He is filling out the sufferings for His body's sake in his own flesh.

Rem. The time for these sufferings is past, though.

J.T. Not at all, this is the time for them. Christ's sufferings are past, but there is still suffering in the flesh, and every one of us is privileged to have part in these sufferings.

A.M.H. That is the line upon which we would particularly experience suffering -- furthering the body of Christ. If I understand it right, the body is something here pleasurable to God. He brings in Christ as Head of the body; all the glories he has spoken of show how great the body is in his mind.

J.T. One feature of His glory is that He is head of the body, the assembly.

R.S.S. With Paul there was the daily care of all the assemblies.

J.T. That would show how much the body was to him, how much he endured, but sufferings are painful things, things that would come upon him. The enemy inspired hostility to him, positive bodily sufferings of which the Acts would give us a record to some extent.

W.M. He says, "I bear in my body the stigmata of the Lord Jesus" (Galatians 6:17).

E.G.McA. That rehearsal of his sufferings: shipwreck, thrice beaten, etc. (2 Corinthians 11:23). Is that it?

J.T. All that would enter into it.

J.B-t. "Why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4) -- would that be on that line? The apostle Paul had a great sense afterward of the sufferings of the members of the body of Christ.

J.T. Only it is not suffering as in the body. I think it is for His body. He regards himself as a vessel having the body in view. Suffering comes upon him on account of it.

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J.B-t. One might say that he took up the persecution which was against the body of Christ.

J.T. Every member of the body of Christ suffers, but his was special; he suffered for it.

E.H.T. Would you say that the body was the vessel where the expression of Christ was, and his whole heart was set for that?

J.T. That is it. And then he goes on to say, "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God, which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; even the mystery". So he was a minister of it and in that way he comes in for special sufferings.

G.A.T. In 2 Corinthians 1:5 he says, "The sufferings of Christ abound in us". He connects the saints and himself with that.

J.T. It abounded in him so that life might abound in the saints. He stood out before them, as it were, and bore the brunt of things.

E.H.T. To bring it down to a present application, if you are set for the care of the body, that is, if your interests are that way, you would suffer, too, in your measure.

J.T. You would indeed. Of course, the form of persecution is not what it used to be, persecution exists because any one who is set for Him whom Satan is against must suffer. Every one will suffer in the measure in which he has got the body before him.

Rem. I would like that made clear about the sufferings of the apostle Paul. He has been beaten, picked up for dead -- where are your sufferings in this way?

J.T. For instance, if you are standing out specially for the truth, you come in for opposition. Physical sufferings are sometimes much easier to bear than spiritual.

E.A.S. "Present your bodies a living sacrifice" (Romans 12:1).

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G.A.T. Is this different from "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12)?

J.T. It is the same thing, only that he is there pointing out what the body is to one who shows correspondence with Christ; that is the point.

G.W.H-n. He has great concern about the Colossians; it is not himself here. "If ye continue". The danger with them was not to hold the Head and go all the way.

J.T. You see, in Romans we have the apostle saying that he was willing to be accursed from Christ for his brethren, the Jews (Romans 9:3). "I have wished", it says. I do not think it was a constant wish; he had wished, but here it is a constant thing. He had gone to Jerusalem and suffered for his brethren, the Jews. He had them before him, but he is speaking here of what he endured for the Gentiles -- "For you", it says, for the body, showing that he was in accord with Christ. It would be an additional incentive so that we might be attracted to Christ.

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READING (3)

Colossians 2; Colossians 3:1 - 4; Joshua 3:1 - 6; Joshua 5:1 - 9

R.S.S. For the benefit of those who were not with us yesterday, as well as for the benefit of those who were, I think several would be very glad to have you give an outline of what we had in connection with the first chapter of Colossians.

J.T. It was thought that at the beginning a word on the Spirit would enable the younger ones to follow more intelligently our consideration of the epistle to the Colossians, so we looked at Exodus 17 and Numbers 21 in connection with Romans 5 and 8. We saw that the Spirit is given in answer to the sufferings of Christ. Not only is He given administratively, as expressing the wealth of heaven, the divine gift as at Pentecost, but He is given in answer to the sufferings of Christ (the Rock was smitten), and as so given and recognised by the believer, formation takes place and the believer progresses and acquires territory -- spiritual territory. He learns to acquire territory, as illustrated in Numbers 21 in the Israelites taking the cities of the Amorites and dwelling in them. It was thought that Romans 8 answers to that and that the believer, having the Spirit, has begun to use the Spirit and by the Spirit to acquire things; he cries "Abba, Father", by the Spirit. He consciously knows relationship with God as his Father. And then we dwelt on the first chapter of the epistle to the Colossians, in which we saw that the Father delivers us from the authority of darkness and translates us into the kingdom of the Son of His love.

We saw also that the Spirit is mentioned but once, and this in connection with love, the saints having love in the Spirit, so that the work of the Spirit is more in

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evidence than the Spirit Himself. As translated into the kingdom of the Son of the Father's love, we are prepared for His benign rule and influence, so that He becomes all to us; He becomes attractive. The Spirit of God enlarges on His personal greatness, and then we are brought into correspondence in that we are reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, so that God should present us holy, unblameable and unreproveable in His sight; and I think that a word from Joshua helps here because in the verse following that with which we finished in chapter 5 it is said that they encamped at Gilgal. The encampments of the people, beginning in Exodus, signified spiritual stages. God usually bound up some special phase of the truth in each encampment. I think that Colossians contemplates an encampment -- a point reached. Certain lessons are learned, for what is presented is impressed on us daily during the period of the encampment.

G.A.T. Would you say we encamp in the territory we have taken?

J.T. Yes, although the idea of taking territory does not appear until we come to Numbers 21. There were many encampments before that, but this encampment at Gilgal, which was of long duration, was an important one. The saints, having entered Canaan, were to learn daily the meaning of the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt. It is a lesson hard to learn.

G.W.H. And even though they proceeded from Gilgal, yet they returned.

J.T. They returned after their conflicts so that they might ever learn that the flesh profits nothing.

J.B-t. Did they encamp there all the days of Joshua? I thought they went further.

J.T. Yes, they set up the tabernacle at Shiloh; but after Joshua's death the angel of the Lord went from Gilgal to Bochim. It was after they lost the meaning of Gilgal that the angel removed from Gilgal

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and went to Bochim (Judges 2:1); there had been a breakdown.

A.F.M. I suppose after Gilgal, in contrast with an encampment, you have a dwelling.

J.T. Quite. They had reached a land of promise; Caleb, who was the first to claim it, refers to his lot as a possession for ever; (Joshua 14:9).

A.F.M. You might speak of Romans as being an encampment; possibly that which we considered yesterday morning, that is, Colossians, another one. I mean Gilgal as suggested by Colossians.

J.T. Yes, I think so. Jephthah speaking to the king of Ammon, outlining the territory acquired by Israel as having come out of Egypt, would indicate, I think, what was recovered during the Reformation. It was territory outside of Canaan, but nevertheless territory acquired; Jephthah outlined the extent of that territory, pointing out that it was taken from the Amorites -- not from Ammon and Moab; (Judges 11:15 - 22).

A.F.M. Do you think that the truth of the presence and operation of the Spirit was recovered during the Reformation?

J.T. I think Romans in a general way.

A.F.M. Justification by faith.

J.T. I do not suppose that Romans 8 was understood, but later the heavenly territory has been acquired, and that involves Colossians. I think the word may be regarded to mean correction. It is so given. It would be, therefore, Gilgal in a general way. It would be a point reached which involves constant correction or discipline. "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth" (Colossians 3:5).

R.S.S. What is meant exactly by rolling away the reproach of Egypt?

J.T. It is the putting off of the body of the flesh in the death of Christ; the flesh, as marking Egypt, is a reproach now. It must not be brought into service

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in relation to the things of God. We know how extensively it is seen in the religious world around us, how Egyptian ways and principles are employed. They are employed almost generally, and without any sense of shame at all, in the religious systems around us, whereas circumcision implies that all that is rolled away. God has done it.

A.F.M. Are the things in chapter 2 what you refer to -- the things that are in the world?

J.T. Yes, Colossians 2 deals with them. What may distinguish one in the world is a reproach in the assembly.

G.A.T. So that if the parents were taking account of it in the way you are speaking now, they would have circumcised them while in the wilderness. They were careless about it.

J.T. They were careless about that, exactly, whereas when you arrive at Gilgal, the Canaan side of Jordan, the question is raised. God impresses it upon them. The Canaanitish kings become terrorised and that, of course, would tend to elate the flesh and give the flesh further opportunity of exalting itself. God immediately brought in this principle -- there must be circumcision; that is to say, the flesh is not to clothe itself with the results of divine power; it must get no credit at all.

A.M.H. In Romans it would be more what the conscience would have to say, but here, do you not think, it is a question of circumcision as a result of affection working in us, that what is not according to the new pattern is unseemly in our eyes?

J.T. That is it. Perhaps you might have something to say about it.

A.M.H. It is more elegant things, things that man might approve of. In Romans 7 it is things you must disapprove. They are contrary to the enlightened conscience and become offensive on that ground, but the things that have been brought in, as you were

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saying, in regard to divine things are more what is elegant in the eyes of the world. The apostle refers to them -- a Hebrew of the Hebrews, things that men might boast in, but not boasting in what is in relation to Christ.

J.T. Just so, so that in this chapter he brings in the mystery -- not as it is in Ephesians, the mystery of God's will (Ephesians 1:9), but the mystery "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (verse 3). He says, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit". Having in the mystery all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, they did not need philosophy and vain deceit.

J.B-t. Is there not reference to the reproach of Egypt in these -- the wisdom of the Egyptians?

J.T. Yes, all that which attaches to Egyptian ways, what marked the Egyptians. We are exposed to what would pass in the world of refinement, the world of literature, the world of learning -- philosophy and vain deceit would hold there.

A.M.H. Is not what precedes this in chapter 1:27, "This mystery ... Christ in you, the hope of glory", the displacing power, as you might say -- the Lord and all that marks Him, having a place in our affections, would not that have a displacing effect and prepare us for recognising the other as reproach?

J.T. Quite so. One has often thought of the Lord as He came into the company of His disciples after He rose from the dead, if one were to bring Mary Magdalene, for instance, a book of science or philosophy, and say, Now, this is a very good book, what would she think about it? She would think of the Lord and say, All is here -- not only the wisdom seen in the physical system, the wisdom which all the sciences professedly seek after, the science of astronomy or geology, or whatever else, they all professedly seek after the wisdom in the physical creation. Doubtless later she would understand that there was

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not only that, but the hidden wisdom which had not been brought into action in the physical system, which God before the world prepared "unto our glory" (1 Corinthians 2:7). Christ was this among the Gentiles, particularly in the Greek world, I think; because, as a matter of fact, Paul's personal ministry was generally confined to the Greek world, from Jerusalem to Illyricum (Romans 15:19). His active apostolic labours were mainly confined, as far as Scripture goes, to the original Greek world, and he would bring there, not only what wisdom was employed in the physical creation of the world and the formation of the universe, but the hidden wisdom. The word 'hid' is prominent in this epistle. God has been most lavish in the physical system, in what He has displayed, but He has reserved something.

W.M. It is now hidden in the mystery.

J.T. It was hid before the world. It was prepared for us -- "which God ordained before the world unto our glory". It is a very wonderful thought that there is wisdom which God prepared before the world for our glory.

W.M. It was like the introduction of a new library into the Greek world. The believer did not need to consult any other books.

J.T. And so the testimony, as Paul presented it in its full height in Ephesus, brought down the books of this world. They went down before it, for what were they in the presence of the wisdom brought in by the Spirit and the unfolding of the mystery of God?

A.F.M. They were just books of "curious art" and "charms".

J.T. Just so, and those who had them brought them and burnt them (Acts 19:19). It is a striking testimony to the power of the truth in the saints. The books were not ordinary, but such as had especial power over men's minds.

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G.W.H. It says, "So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed" (Acts 19:20).

W.M. I suppose the Greek mind was the most cultured that has ever existed in the world, before or since.

J.T. It was known to be that. It had that place, and has it today.

G.A.T. Why did they burn the books?

J.T. That they did so shows how completely the truth had laid hold of the saints. The books were not only useless and damaging to them, but to all others.

E.H.T. What connection is there with the physical world and the mystery?

J.T. Well, Proverbs 8:30 says, "Then I was by him, as one brought up with him", as the physical system developed, but then in Proverbs 9:1 it says, "Wisdom hath builded her house"; that is another thing, and it is an allusion to the assembly. If Wisdom builds her house, you have that in which is displayed the "all-various wisdom of God".

A.M.H. Do you think the "seven pillars" suggest the spiritual character of everything there, including the thought of spiritual beauty? Our tendency is to be attracted by something that strikes the mind. There is spiritual excellence and beauty in everything that is introduced by Christ.

J.T. One is reminded of Paul's labours at Corinth, which was renowned for its architecture. Corinthian architecture is famed even now, and what is so remarkable is that the 'architect' of the assembly, as he calls himself in that letter, dwelt there as a tent-maker. He was actually labouring in that city as a tent-maker, that is, he had no thought at all of corresponding with what was in Corinth, or vying with them in any way. He was just a tent-maker. The word 'craft' is used. He was of the same craft as a man and his wife, and yet in his soul, or, as I should say, in his mind, by the Spirit of God, there

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was the full design of the assembly -- a greater thing than is spoken of in Proverbs 9. The physical system is not comparable with Wisdom's house. Chapter 9 is Wisdom's house, and Paul was the architect, or the master-builder, of that. He had all the light of God in his soul, as you may say, while working as tent-maker in the reputed city of architecture!

A.F.M. I think the connection there is very beautiful. In coming to Corinth he was in the truth of Gilgal. He said, "I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). His power lay in that.

A.L. Is it not important in that connection that the name of the place was called Gilgal "unto this day"? Paul kept it up, and I presume "unto this day" would bring it down to our day, would it not?

J.T. Well, it brought it down to the day of the writer. That often appears in Scripture. But it is sorrowful to note the discontinuance of the principle in later days, as you get in Amos 5:5: "Seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal". These places had lost their spiritual meaning. "Seek ye me", God says, instead of these places; but while they retain their spiritual force let us abide in them.

A.L. So that Paul maintained the truth of circumcision, not only in his soul, but in his testimony in the face of all the learning and philosophy, and do you not think that we would get rid of a great deal if we burned a lot of our books -- I mean morally, burned the thought and idea of having in our minds any trace of what is human? For instance, Samuel, in connection with Agag, the king was a desirable person, evidently, in Saul's mind, but Samuel hewed him to pieces before the Lord in Gilgal (1 Samuel 15:33).

J.T. Very good. He came to him 'delicately', that is, he had the marks of refinement about him.

A.L. And he said, "Surely the bitterness of death is past" (1 Samuel 15:32).

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J.T. You can see how in Paul, according to the way he presents himself in this epistle, we have before our eyes a model -- a man who had every means of acquiring the wisdom of this world; he had access to the princes of this world; the princes would be the leaders; he had every means of acquiring all that they had. He was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, he said, and yet see him at Corinth, he abode at Gilgal and maintained that outward lowliness -- outwardly "a simple person". As he says, he came "not with excellency of speech or of wisdom" (1 Corinthians 2:1), but maintained his relations with Gilgal. But it was not that he had not got the hidden wisdom: "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought, but ... the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" (1 Corinthians 2:6,7). Now, that is what he would open up to us in this epistle; with this in view we get what you may call negative ministry, stressing what Gilgal represents.

G.A.T. Do you connect that with baptism?

J.T. It precedes baptism here. Circumcision is the leading feature, I think, of the negative teaching of this chapter.

A.M.H. That is, you mean it is viewed here as done in Christ.

J.T. We are circumcised in the circumcision of Christ in the putting off of the body of the flesh, that is to say, the whole thing. That is what I understand; the whole thing has been dealt with effectually in Christ.

A.M.H. We are taken back to the cross, and I suppose if we could feel it more, the shame there is in clinging to anything of the flesh, in our ministry or in our conduct with one other, it would make room for increase of power, and the apprehension of the mystery.

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A.F.M. Would you tell us the difference between concision and circumcision?

J.T. I suppose concision was a kind of half measure; it was not the whole thing.

A.F.M. It was more like an appearance or a show, and so was deceptive; the saints were warned against it (Philippians 3:2).

J.T. 'Circum' is the whole thing; it goes all the way.

W.M. Concision would retain the religious flesh.

E.G.McA. Now that we are not supposed to go to Gilgal nor Bethel, where do we go? Is it to the Person?

J.T. Well, where there is general departure we have got to begin over again, and that is what Amos 5:4 insists on: "Seek ye me". You will have observed that in Amos.

A.M.H. I was thinking in connection with that how everything is revived in Christ personally. I was thinking of Elijah's journey, how he leads Elisha through all that series of places in which breakdown had occurred, to recover the principles of them in vitality in himself.

J.T. That is the thing. Elijah would represent the Lord and, as in the company of Elijah, Elisha would understand what each place signified. It would be a new start for him, and so I think in our own times the ministry of John begins with the Person of Christ, not what He was genealogically, nor humanly, nor ministerially, but what He was personally -- "In the beginning was the Word" (John 1:1). He establishes a basis on which every true Christian can stand. A man is not a Christian at all unless he is interested in the Person of Christ. John is like Amos in that way -- "Seek ye me". That is the thing, not Gilgal, nor these religious things. They had a place, but departure has robbed them of their force and we have got to begin over again. Hence the Lord gives no name

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to the dwelling-place when John's disciples, who followed Him, inquired where He dwelt (John 1:38).

A.M.H. They were attracted to the Person. They were leaving Gilgal. All had broken down and John calls attention to Him, and they were attracted to the One in whom everything was embodied. I was interested in Elisha, that the first step Elijah went with Elisha was from Gilgal; afterwards, Elisha goes with Elijah. Where there is any movement on this line, recovery of what God has introduced, God is immediately with you. He (Elijah) went with Elisha from Gilgal and then touches all these places, that Elisha might be enlarged, and he crosses Jordan. Do you think that is right?

J.T. Very beautiful indeed, very suggestive; so, in going over Jordan with Elijah, walking and talking with him, and seeing him go up, Elisha, coming back with a double portion of his spirit, would visit these places with intelligence. There was therefore a new start for himself and for the people.

A.M.H. A new cruse is introduced, an entirely new one.

G.A.T. Would you mind repeating what you said about how I get on?

J.T. Well, just to see the Person of Christ as brought in in John. The Person of Christ is brought in, and if one is not ready to listen to Him, what is there? If I am not interested in the Person of Christ Himself, as presented in John 1, I am not born of God.

G.A.T. So, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maran-atha" (1 Corinthians 16:22).

J.T. Just so, John therefore, instead of bringing in doctrine, brings in the Person. There is a new beginning. "Seek ye me", it says in Amos. "As many as received him" (John 1:12). If the Person is received there will be following; therefore, as you

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said, Elijah tested Elisha. He would go further, but Elisha would follow -- even through death itself.

A.M.H. It might be well to refer to that scripture in Amos 5:4 - 8. "Seek ye me and ye shall live: but seek not Bethel, nor enter into Gilgal, and pass not to Beer-Sheba; for Gilgal shall surely go into captivity and Bethel shall come to nought". Then the passage runs on to the creatorial questions of Jehovah, who is to be sought.

E.G.McA. Is the secret of the lost significance of Bethel and Gilgal found in verse 4 of the previous chapter?

J.T. Quite: "Come to Bethel, and transgress", etc. People take up these religious things and pursue their own will, so that there is need for a new start. John, I think, contemplated the departure and began over again. He begins with Christ, with His Person. He is the test to everybody.

A.M.H. He begins by the contemplation of His glory.

A.F.M. John seems to drop names and terms that are used in the epistles. It is the Person Himself.

J.T. That is it. Things are to be learned afresh in Him. The temple, for instance, was His body.

A.F.M. He infers the house of God, but does not call it by name.

J.T. Quite. The Son -- Himself again -- abides in the house for ever.

A.L. It is very remarkable that in our difficulties in the present day the presentation of Christ meets them all.

J.T. "As many as received him", it says. One is tested by Him. "He came unto his own and his own received him not" (John 1:11). That is the line on which John works. There must be a work of God in us, for "The flesh profits nothing" (John 6:63)

W.M. John does not enlarge on His relative titles so much; I mean he does not call Him Priest nor

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Head; the titles he uses are generally personal.

J.T. Quite. So in John's ministry we have a new beginning, and everyone that loves Christ is sure to be affected by a right presentation of His Person.

Now, the next thing is there are those who have contemplated Him -- whoever they may be, thank God for them. "We have contemplated his glory"; those who have affection for Him, and speak about Him. Then we got the testimony of the baptist; John 1:15. Here is a man who comes from God; what has he to say about this Person? "There standeth one among you ... who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose" (John 1:26,27), and he goes on to call attention to Christ, and how he became acquainted with Him: "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (John 1:34). So that competent witnesses are brought forward to call attention to Christ, persons who have contemplated Him and "a man sent from God".

Now, that is the way that recovery is brought about at the present time -- the presentation of the Person of Christ. The next thing is, therefore, who will follow Him? The ministry of the baptist is so effective, so free from himself that his disciples turn away from him and follow Jesus, and they want to know where He dwells. There is no raising of questions about the Old Testament; it is simply a question of the Person. Later on the disciples of John and a Jew were disputing about purification (John 3:25), but there is nothing like that in the true followers of Jesus. They are not occupied with questions; they are occupied with the Person, and where the Person dwells.

E.G.McA. Is that the force of the expression, "As therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord"?

J.T. There it is. The Colossians had received Him.

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E.H.T. I was wondering why the title "Christ" was brought in so prominently.

J.T. Through the Christ God effects everything and sets out His pleasure. The Colossians had received Him and they were to move on accordingly; "walk in him".

A.F.M. If you leave it entirely with Him, He will lead you aright.

J.T. Walking in Him implies that you disallow all that is contrary to Him. As our brother pointed out, the movements of Elijah tested Elisha. But he was equal to the test: "As Jehovah liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee" (2 Kings 2:2); and then there are the sons of the prophets at a distance intruding, as if they knew better than Elisha. We have to contend with the sons of the prophets, but the great point is to cleave to Elijah -- "I will not leave thee".

J.B-t. Speaking of the Lord, John says, "And I knew him not" (John 1:31), there was that which was hidden, but made manifest to faith.

J.T. Yes. The point as to John here is 'sent' -- "a man sent from God". "He that sent me ... the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptiseth with the Holy Spirit. And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God" (John 1:33,34). So you have a competent witness.

G.W.H-n. In this 'encampment' there are some very positive lessons: "In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead"; Paul was greatly concerned that the Colossians should not be diverted from this of which they were in danger.

J.T. It is now 'bodily'. We have to distinguish this from the mystery "In which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge". This refers to the assembly, Christ's body here, but all the fulness

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of the Godhead dwells in Christ bodily, so that we have all that now brought within our range. The Godhead was pleased to dwell in Him (chapter 1), but here it is in Him bodily, meaning that it is within our range.

A.L. It is in a glorified and unlimited condition now.

J.T. Yes, but the thing is the Godhead is in Him bodily. You can understand it.

A.F.M. Was not the truth of the first chapter true of Him here as a Man on earth? It was there; that is, as Man here.

J.T. Oh, I think that was true always.

J.B-t. His personal greatness.

A.F.M. He was personally God.

J.T. Yes, only I think He occupied a mediatorial place even before: "By whom also He made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:2). I mean Colossians 1 is a question of His Person, who He was. He is spoken of as creating everything. It is a question of the Person, but in the second chapter He is brought within our range; it is in Him bodily. The first chapter is not so much the condition He took (although this is stated) but the greatness of the Lord's Person whether as Man or before.

A.M.H. "Bodily", that is, it has taken form. Would you connect it with "The image of the invisible God"? It is all that God has given in a Man for our apprehension and appropriation. That is 'bodily', I think.

J.T. The thought in the second chapter is that He has brought it all there, available to us. The point in the first chapter is to stress His Person, and so many glories are predicated of Him, but in this chapter it is a question of things being in Him bodily. He is a real Man in whom God in all that He is, dwells, and through whom He makes Himself known.

A.F.M. Is not the viewpoint of chapter 1 from

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His manhood, that this Person whom we know was Creator, etc., and as Man here, all these qualities are found in Him?

J.T. Yes, it is the Son of the Father's love, but it is very like John 1. It is the Person, because all that He was divinely is necessarily in Him as a Person presented to my affections; but when it is a question of my participating in the things then it is what is in Him bodily.

A.M.H. It is very important to see that the fulness dwells in Him personally. That is one of His glories contemplated. The fulness of the Godhead dwelt there.

J.T. If I think of the Person, I think of Him, whether in the body or before, but if I think of what is brought within my range for my appropriation now, it is what is in Him bodily.

A.M.H. As we already touched upon, "In the beginning was the Word", but there is no appropriation of Him, or life brought to us, until He comes in flesh. "The Word became flesh", it says, but we like to contemplate Him as "In the beginning". That produces adoration.

W.M. Do you not think there was a mediatorial thought from all eternity?

J.T. Well, I think it is quite right to say that, because it says "By whom".

W.M. In Philippians 2:5 it says, "Let this mind". The mind was there when He was in the form of God.

H.D. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily, and then follows, "Ye are complete in him". The complete thought as to us is suggested in that all fulness dwells in Christ bodily.

J.T. There are two thoughts there. "In him dwells all the fulness", and then "Ye are complete", or "filled full" in Him who is the Head of all principality and power. The first is what He is to me from God; the second is what I am in Him towards God.

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H.D. One is consequent upon the other. One comes to me in all His fulness, and I am presented Godward in completeness.

J.T. And so He is Head from our side, which is a very great thing. As it says, "Which is the head of all principality and power, in whom also ye are circumcised". As "complete in him", all the things are stated to show how we correspond with Him, that is to say, in circumcision and in baptism. These are negative things. Quickening is positive. "With him" has to be noted here all through.

J.B-t. Circumcision and burial would be negative.

J.T. Yes.

A.F.M. Raised with Him is positive -- raised and quickened.

E.H.T. Do you want to say something about the opening verse of chapter 3 before we close?

J.T. Well, it is based on this chapter. "If ye then be risen with Christ". It is important to see that, inasmuch as we are brought into correspondence with Christ through circumcision and baptism, and resurrection and quickening, there were certain things in our way, such as "The law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15). These things were in the way, and they are taken out of it by God. Men have brought them back again in the religious world.

W.M. Do you think that the word 'us' here would confine these obstructions to the Jewish believers particularly?

J.T. I think it would. They would suffer most, but also some of the Gentiles; they knew law. Men have brought these things back, and that is the thing to notice. Men are going contrary to God. God took them out of the way, nailing them to the cross -- a most remarkable statement -- and men have set them up again in the most prominent and pretentious way.

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A.M.H. What would be the difference in practical effect (just to go back a moment) between circumcision and baptism? Frequently in the death of Christ baptism is presented as buried with Him.

J.T. I suppose circumcision has to do with the state in which we are, the flesh -- "In his flesh", therefore. Baptism has more to do with what is outside of us, with the world. One thus disappears out of the world.

A.M.H. 'Risen', what is that?

J.T. Well, I think it is to take us beyond the domain of death -- into God's world indeed. It is not here dead to the world, as in Romans ("Reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin" Romans 6:11), but I am taken out of it altogether, because Colossians is looking on to our going into the inheritance. This chapter is crucial; it is the chapter by which adjustments take place; I gradually pass out of the world and death altogether into the wide region of life.

A.M.H. "Through the faith of the operation of God" would be the laying hold of the power of God. Does that mean something which we enter into here -- not that which is effected in His death merely, but faith is in operation?

J.T. I think so. It is faith in the work of God, but now you are in the light of what God is doing for you, leading up to Ephesians 1:19, "The exceeding greatness of his power".

J.B-t. Is not there the thought that there is something buried here that never will be raised?

J.T. I think the thing is to see that it is "with him", that you have been in the company, so to say, of Elijah all the way through. You are moving with Him; He has become an object to the affections. It is "buried with him", "raised with him". Faith is spoken of here once, because it is a question of being

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in the light of the operation of God, as seen in the resurrection of Christ.

R.S.S. It is not that we are actually raised, but we are raised by faith.

W.M. That includes all Christians, whether advanced or not.

J.T. Certainly, from the divine side all is done, but it is said here of those who had faith in the power of God.

A.F.M. Is not this the Jordan? Is not "buried with him" here the passage of the Jordan?

J.T. Oh, it is. It is not the Red Sea that is in view. As has often been remarked, the Red Sea and Jordan are one thing, only in Jordan we are occupied with going into the land, not simply walking "in newness of life" and living before the world in testimony; going in, I am in company with the One I love and He knows where He is taking me.

A.M.H. Going over Jordan suggests a deliberate act. It is true of all Christians on the divine side, but it supposes a certain state arrived at and which can appreciate this feature of the truth.

J.T. The work of God, as you intimate, lies underneath it. There is appreciation, or the ability to appreciate what is presented.

H.D. I was thinking of the eunuch. Was he buried in baptism at the death of Christ or at the time he was baptised?

J.T. He could not be buried in baptism until he was baptised. As Elisha (2 Kings 13:20) died the subject of burying came into evidence. They were burying a man; now, burying is a great thing, because if a man have no burial he is worse off than if he had not been born at all (Ecclesiastes 6:3); and so, as Elisha died, they were burying a man, and the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at that time, and those who were burying him cast him into the sepulchre of Elisha. It was a very irregular thing, as if to point

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out that burial according to God had been interfered with by the Moabitish bands. I think the religious systems have interfered with the idea of burial according to God. Nevertheless, the man was cast into the sepulchre of Elisha and he went down. It was real burial.

A.M.H. Touching the bones of Elisha brought him to life.

J.T. That is it. He went down and touched the bones of Elisha and that is where life came in. I think that here in Colossians you have the true idea of burial; that is, we are buried with Him in order that we should be raised with Him. It is a real thing. This is the divine idea and then, alongside of that, you have quickening, that the man who is buried and raised is actually living. He is a living person. The man touched the bones of Elisha and he stood on his feet.

H.D. When does that actually take place, when I am actually baptized -- buried with Christ, I mean?

J.T. You see, we are contemplating burial through baptism as it is in the mind of God, and it involves faith. It is not the mere ceremony; it is the faith that is in it, the faith of the work of God in which I come to my baptism. I may have been baptised when I was young, as most of us have been, but I come to it. God brings me back to it, because it is not real burial to me until I am brought back to it. It is a matter of faith, and faith in the work of God. I have been really buried with Christ, and as He has been raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so shall I. I have got faith about that, but in the meantime I am quickened, like the man in Kings, I am standing on my feet in living affections with Christ. I am quickened with Christ. Correspondence with Christ is the great feature in this chapter.

E.H.T. Would you say that the acceptance is by

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faith, but the consciousness of it is in the quickening?

J.T. Yes; they go together.

A.M.H. So in the scripture you referred to in Joshua 3:4, everything was secured when the ark went over Jordan; and you have to go two thousand cubits behind. You recognise the greatness of the Lord as going before; and then it says, "Ye have not passed this way heretofore". That is a matter for us to take up in divine energy, in a right spiritual state and love for Christ.

J.T. Then there were things that stood in the way. Naaman says to Elisha, "Then let there ... be given to thy servant two mules' burden of earth" (2 Kings 5:17). It is really "Of this earth", the earth on which Elisha stood. Now, that would save Naaman, as he went back to Syria, from mere religious ceremonies. He would be in the light of Elisha's God and (the earth) the sense of what man is according to the testimony of Elisha. Now here death, burial, resurrection and quickening have fitted me for a new order of things entirely. But there were things that God had ordained, "The law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15). These stood against us, and it is a very remarkable thing here that these are also disposed of. I could not get rid of them, of course. The high priest at Jerusalem might bring them to bear on my conscience and say God has ordained these, but this passage says that God Himself has nailed them to the cross. He has taken them out of the way and all principality and power, religious or otherwise, they are all dealt with, so that the believer is free to enter into an entirely new order of things. His conscience is not troubled and his affections are released, so that he might be with God in association with Christ.

R.S.S. You said that burial has become irregular. What was your thought in regard to that?

J.T. Well, things have become very irregular in

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the sphere of Christian profession. But what comes out is that the man got down to the bones of Elisha in spite of that.

R.S.S. Is that an illustration of what is true of Christians, that in baptism, accepted by faith, we are brought into touch with Christ and resurrection ensues?

J.T. Yes, even if things have become very irregular, as they are. The man went down; it is a question of being with Christ. He went down.

H.D. He went down because Christ went down.

W.M. And he was quickened by touching the bones of Elisha.

A.F.M. The form is all around us. They all baptise, but there is no power with the form. I was thinking of verse 18 for a moment -- that would characterise what belonged to the unburied.

J.T. Just so. I do not think that the religious systems around us, although they baptise, understand it, nor mean it to be burial at all. But what you get here is that all these things release us. This chapter releases us in mind and affections, and consciously, so that we hold the Head. We "hold fast the head from whom all the body ... increases with the increase of God".

A.M.H. Do you think that burial would free us from what is authoritative? Circumcision frees us more from what has become a reproach. I was thinking of John 12, how they were free from the natural relationships which to a certain extent excluded the Lord, but they make Him a Supper, and these relationships are no longer mentioned, though each person is there. Lazarus sits at the table, Martha serves, and Mary fills the house with the odour of the ointment. Every one has his place, but in relation to Him now. Do you think burial would make room for that?

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J.T. That is very good. The relationships of nature do not enter into resurrection; they terminate in death.

A.F.M. In Genesis 22 Christ is raised in figure. In chapter 23 Sarah is buried, and in chapter 24 the assembly comes into view. I thought all the natural relationships are buried with Sarah.

J.T. Sarah's is the first burial we get in Scripture and I think there is a divine principle in it. Being the progenitress of the family of faith, it was right that her burial should be mentioned as in the light of resurrection.

W.M. And Sarah is the only woman whose age when she died is told in Scripture. This is, no doubt, an additional honour.

J.T. Indicating, perhaps, what her life had been to God.

The beginning of chapter 3 is based on chapter 2, "If ye then be risen with Christ ... Set your affection on things above". I am released; there is not a thing in my way now, not a thing against me. The flesh is disposed of, the world is disposed of, and the religious law that stood out against me is disposed of. I am free to enter on my heavenly portion where Christ is.

W.M. Nothing but heavenly things now; we are ready for Ephesians.

A.M.H. "The Christ" here suggests that He stands out as the only One before the heart, that particular One.

A.F.M. Does that suggest "The old corn of the land" (Joshua 5:11) being brought in?

J.T. Quite, that is where we get it; we begin to live on the food of heaven; what is indigenous to heaven. How many of us know what that is, that which belongs to heaven?

Rem. It says they "kept the passover" and "They did eat of the old corn of the land on the

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morrow after the passover ... And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land" (Joshua 5:11,12).

J.T. Yes, the manna does not end on the wilderness side of the Jordan. God supports us right over with the food we have been accustomed to, because you must have food. He says, "Prepare you victuals" (Joshua 1:11). You cannot pass over Jordan without support; you must have food. He supports you right to Gilgal, and then you begin to partake of the old corn of the land. The manna ceases. To be heavenly I have to live on what belongs to heaven. Thus I begin to realise that I am heavenly; for "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Corinthians 15:48).

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READING (4)

Ephesians 1

J.T. It helps in the understanding of this epistle to read it in relation to the facts recorded in the Acts. That is so, of course, in regard to other epistles, but in none is it so important as in this one, I think.

A.F.M. Do you refer to particular chapters in the Acts?

J.T. Yes, chapters 19 and 20, particularly chapter 20, because it brings out the result of the testimony in the saints in the way of affection. We need hardly think of understanding this epistle without affection.

A.F.M. Do you refer to the three embracings in that chapter?

J.T. Yes; Paul embracing the Ephesians, the embracing of Eutychus, and the elders embracing Paul, because he has to be taken as representative of God and of Christ. He is said here to be an apostle by the will of God, and they would so regard him.

W.M. Do you not think this is a higher form of address than in the case of Colossians? I mean, he does not address them as brethren, he just addresses them in connection with what they are as come from God.

J.T. Yes, "saints" and "faithful in Christ Jesus". In the Acts (chapter 20) it says that Paul, after the tumult, "called unto him the disciples, and embraced them, and departed" (verse 1); and then at the end it says (verse 37), "They all wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck, and kissed him"; so that there was reciprocal affection. Paul has to be taken there, I think, as representative of Christ, so that their feelings and affections are of all the greater importance. "They ardently kissed him", so that one can understand the liberty with

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which he would unfold these wonderful things from the divine standpoint, not as meeting man's need, but as meeting the requirements of the love of God -- the greatest possible platform; so that he is moved at the outset, saying, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ".

A.L. I suppose we have here the love of God in its own movements and its own sphere, rather than meeting our need, what love would do for its own satisfaction.

J.T. That is what it is, and so it requires love in us to appreciate what is presented.

You have in the address to the elders an expression that perhaps may be regarded as unique: "The assembly ... which he has purchased with the blood of his own" (Acts 20:28); possibly the strongest expression of divine love that you can get, "The blood of his own". And so here: "He has taken us into favour in the Beloved".

A.F.M. What comes before us in this epistle is rather God Himself, whereas in Colossians it is Christ.

J.T. Yes. Perhaps what is least known amongst us is love. It is spoken of most and known least; but it marked the Ephesians saints.

Rem. Would you say that was what they failed in at the last?

J.T. They left it. "Thou hast left thy first love" (Revelation 2:4). I am not saying that it is a question of what one observes in the brethren, but what one is conscious of: how little one knows of love as it is in God! The Colossians had "love in the Spirit" (Colossians 1:8) which is near to it.

A.F.M. Why were the Israelites detained on the plains of Moab? Was it that they might be qualified through the covenant so as to go over in perfect suitability to God?

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J.T. I think so. Moses in that encampment opened up to them his own affections for them. It was a very notable period. Deuteronomy is the opening up of the personal affections of Moses, and he calls attention, in the last chapter but one, to the love that God had for the people. "He loved the people" (chapter 33:3). I suppose He loved them in their tribal, or family relations. That is the testimony of Deuteronomy, and one feels the importance of it, because the understanding of Ephesians is contingent on love in the saints. Colossians, therefore, represents a state in the saints that leads to Ephesians, because they had love for all saints and they had "love in the Spirit". But the facts in Acts show that the Ephesian saints loved God in His representative. They loved Paul ardently.

G.A.T. It is very nice to see the spirit shown. They were sorry to see him leave.

J.T. They wept sore, and were pained that they should see his face no more. I think he expressed what God was to them. There was a wonderful display in him of the power of God and the love of God as he laboured amongst them.

G.W.H. He says that he had not shunned to declare unto them the whole counsel of God (verse 27), which perhaps had led them into the place that they had in divine affections.

J.T. Quite; there is significance in the time he spent there, affording a complete testimony, three years. Undoubtedly there were new features enlarged on in the letter, but the time he spent there was adequate to unfold not only the doctrine, the truth, as he did in the school of Tyrannus daily (Acts 19:9), but to make himself known as the representative of God. This would be specially in the house-to-house work.

G.W.H. In the Spirit of the Lord Himself he

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went about commending the truth in his own deportment.

J.T. He was expressive of God in Christ, coming down and entering into the circumstances of His people in their houses, unfolding the heart of God, and the counsels of God, and the place they had in the heart of God; so that one can understand how their affections would take account of all that.

G.W.H. They were especially pained that they would see his face no more.

A.F.M. This house-to-house work would bring Paul near the saints, and the saints near to Paul, so that what had been given publicly would be helped on privately.

J.T. One finds that in house-to-house work in visiting a locality you get at the saints in their everyday circumstances. You feel that in visiting the saints thus, they are in your heart, each of them, as you are doubtless in theirs.

A.M.H. Do you think in that there is more opportunity of really bringing before the saints what is of God in anything one may have? Ministry conveys it in words and has the support of the Spirit, but in what you are referring to there is more opportunity of explaining it. You see it livingly in Paul.

J.T. Quite. The Lord came eating and drinking (Luke 7:34); He did not come in the arbitrary way in which John the baptist came. The Lord came eating and drinking, and was ready to accept invitations. They would see Him as He was; He "dwelt among us" (John 1:14). It could hardly be said of John that he dwelt among them. The Lord did, and so: "We beheld his glory, the glory of the only begotten of the Father" (John 1:14). I have noticed, in this house-to-house work of Paul at Ephesus, that the assembly was built and developed in the souls of the saints in a way that perhaps it was not elsewhere.

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W.M. This affection of Paul's was much more than brotherly love.

J.T. That was what I was thinking. He was a brother, of course, but he was representative of Christ.

G.W.H. While in Philippians he speaks of their being in his heart, that was perhaps more connected with the gospel.

J.T. Well, Philippians is a sort of counterpart of Ephesians. They had fellowship with him in the gospel from the first day until the day on which he wrote. His presence in their houses during his service at Philippi was a marked feature.

G.W.H. At the start, do you mean Lydia's house?

J.T. Yes, and the house of the jailor.

H.D. Is there not an indication, in his visiting from house to house, that our houses would be a preparation for us for the house of God -- a sort of representation of it?

J.T. Quite.

A.L. It is remarkable in this epistle, is it not, that it is addressed to the saints and not to the assembly?

J.T. I think that is important, because it is not a question of principles governing a locality in this epistle. Evidently it was intended to be of universal bearing, although addressed to those at Ephesus, because it really has in mind all the saints, the Jews and the Gentiles.

A.F.M. He says in verse 15, "Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints". He knew their faith, while it might take the character of that which is general.

J.T. I think he alluded to what was there with them. He alluded to what was local, undoubtedly, but it would apply generally -- characteristically.

G.W.H. Would it not be in view of the character of his labours at Ephesus, a kind of crowning work in connection with the assembly?

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J.T. Yes; the assembly at Ephesus was his crowning work.

Ques. As to this house-to-house work, is it much done nowadays, or is it possible?

J.T. It is very important that it should come to our attention, because I am sure it is the most effective service that can be rendered; that is, visiting the saints in their houses in the endeavour to bring God to them, to bring God in as He is in Christ.

J.S. I think the apostle finished his course, perhaps, in this connection; that is, receiving all that came in to him. Was not that the thing at the close of his course?

J.T. "In his own hired house" (Acts 28:30).

J.S. I thought they went to his house and proved the things that he had spoken.

J.T. There was not the full apostolic energy in the Latin world. There is nothing of the planting of assemblies that you get earlier; he is there as a prisoner. It is more a question of his being available to anybody that sought him, but in his apostolic labours it was not coming to him, but he going to them. That is the idea of an apostle -- one that comes from God in a representative and authoritative way.

Ques. Would the seeking of him in his own house correspond to the present moment? I was thinking of Timothy. He speaks of one who sought him out very diligently and found him (2 Timothy 1:17).

J.T. Yes, just so. He was a prisoner, of course, but nevertheless he was available to all who sought him. It says, "Received all". It was not only that he was compelled to open the door to them and give them an audience in courtesy, but he received them.

A.M.H. Would you say that dispensationally Paul has to be found, everything having become clouded by the break-up in Christendom? Those who need the truth have to seek it to find it. On the other hand, in our dealings with one another we can still

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carry on this house-to-house work. It is available to us.

J.S. I think that when it is a question of seeking out a servant, souls can go when they are ready, whereas when it is a question of looking people up today, you find saints do not always find it convenient for you to go and see them.

A.M.H. They would be peculiar saints.

J.S. Well, the circumstances under which they live make it difficult. At any rate I thought there was a peculiar dignity about a servant as available for the saints when they were ready to wait on him.

A.F.M. I believe there are plenty of doors open if we had the energy to go in. I have found that myself.

J.S. I would like to have my own door open.

J.B-t. Is there a way by which we can locate the apostle now and seek him out?

J.T. No doubt. The principle in John's ministry is, I think, that we come to God. The principle in Luke is that God comes to us.

E.G.McA. May we not find Paul today, in Colossians and Ephesians?

J.T. Oh, yes; these epistles specially present his ministry.

G.A.T. Do you not think it is a poor testimony if I am seeking Paul? I ought to be with him.

J.T. Yes, you should be of his 'company', but then many are not.

G.W.H-n. Speaking of the love that was found in the Ephesians, how is that produced?

J.T. There was the full presentation of God in Christ, but he arrived at Ephesus by the "upper coasts"; there is the idea of elevation in his approach, that is, the truth presented from the heavenly level, I think. He comes into Corinth more on the lower level. There are two levels, I think, that run together. The one is meeting man's need here -- Romans is that. He comes to Corinth, more on the lower level, but,

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passing through the upper quarters, he arrives at Ephesus, and then it was while Apollos was at Corinth. Apollos was holding the ground, I apprehend, on the lower level, that is, the adjustment of the saints in regard to the public assembly. There is that which is here before man's eye which has to be maintained -- "While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul ... came to Ephesus" (Acts 19:1). Apollos, I apprehend, was holding the ground in relation to the public body on earth -- a man mighty in the Scriptures. Paul arrives at Ephesus, finds twelve men, and the point he raises is the Spirit, because the heavenly system of things depends on that. "Have ye received the Holy Spirit?" (Acts 19:2); they say, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Spirit. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptised? And they said, Unto John's baptism". And so they all receive the Spirit at one time. They had therefore an excellent start; it was the Spirit as come in in a collective way amongst them.

A.L. When you speak of the upper quarters, is that in keeping with what is in our scripture about the heavenlies?

J.T. That is what I was endeavouring to get at. The question was raised how the love that they had was developed. The truth of God in Christ was presented to them on a high level. Of course, the gospel was preached there and the world was brought down by it, but what is to be observed is that it is "The word of the Lord" -- that is, the Lord, I think, as presented typically in Canaan, because it is a question of bringing down high things -- Jericho, and the like. He is thus presented in relation to the purpose of God. Their affections would be formed on the highest possible platform.

A.F.M. Do you think the fact that there were twelve, and that they were men, had some ulterior end in view, not the knowledge of God which would

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characterise this work, but the thought of administration?

J.T. I think so. Without mentioning it formally, there should be that which is heavenly here in testimony.

A.L. Would you tell us where the heavenlies are? It is not heaven, is it?

J.T. No, it is the heavenlies in Ephesians. I have no doubt one point is to show that He has gone beyond them all. He has gone beyond all the heavens. There is what we may call the atmospheric heavens, and then the sidereal heavens. Beyond that there is evidently what is called "the third heaven", which would be a spiritual realm. The first two are evidently material; the third is evidently a spiritual realm, into which Paul went (2 Corinthians 12:2).

W.M. But you would not call that the heavenlies?

J.T. It was in the sense that that was one of them. The word 'heavenlies', I think, would be general, covering them all. Where we are actually blessed is probably the third; I am not prepared to say much beyond that. Certainly it is not a question of what is atmospheric or sidereal; it is a spiritual realm.

G.W.H. It says we are made to sit down there. Clearly, that is spiritual.

G.A.T. Is the third heaven God's immediate presence?

J.T. Oh, I do not know that you can say much about it.

G.A.T. Paul was caught up there; he is our apostle, and it would show the limit, would it not?

J.T. Well, it would, so that is what he would consider. There are the two thoughts -- elevation, the third heaven; and the other is that it is a place of blessedness, that is to say, paradise. He uses two words.

W.M. I suppose we sometimes limit the extent of

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the heavenlies, because it speaks of combat being with wicked spirits in the heavenlies.

J.T. That shows that it is a general term. It is a general term, I have no doubt. Satan is said to be the prince of the power of the air. The atmospheric heavens appear there.

R.S.S. But he would not have access beyond that?

J.T. I should not like to think so, but the point is that it is in that realm; not on the earth.

G.A.T. "Where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God", would that be the same thought?

J.T. He is said in this epistle to have gone beyond all the heavens. Where that is we cannot say much; it is a question of supreme elevation, where God Himself is.

A.M.H. Referring to holding things at Corinth, do you mean that it is essential to have what is local in order, before there is the readiness for the reception of this truth? If there is not love working, if divine principles are not recognised, it is impossible to introduce this line of things. That is why we know so little about it, perhaps.

J.T. So that the Old Testament does not help you much in Ephesians, though there are, of course, references to it. The Old Testament helps enormously in the ordering of things down here, Corinthians and Romans, so Apollos, being mighty in the Scriptures, was of great value at Corinth.

A.M.H. When you come to love you cannot expect the Old Testament to help you. Now, God is revealed; we know the Son of God has come. The Old Testament could not unfold that.

J.T. What we have here was hidden; it was a mystery.

G.A.T. Would you say that Joshua gives us a good bit of Ephesians?

J.T. I am not denying that there are types, but

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Ephesians is from the standpoint of the love and counsels of God before the foundation of the world. Romans and Corinthians correspond with the previous ways of God, sin having come in; Ephesians treats of what is outside all this, what is eternal and heavenly.

G.W.H-n. In coming from the upper regions, it is God moving of His own volition, to secure for Himself that which He had set His thought upon.

J.T. And so he proceeds to speak about the eternal thought of God, as he says here, "According to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved". He immediately proceeds to the eternal thought of God for us; it all originated there before the foundation of the world; so we are dealing with that which the Old Testament did not treat of. There are types, of course, as we said.

A.M.H. Here we have divine choosing; God has chosen. Think of God selecting! What kind of selection? He would have us, holy and unblameable before Him in love. It is the movements of divine love before the world.

J.T. "In love", that is what one would wish to get hold of -- "Holy and without blame before him in love".

G.W.H-n. We are creatures of nature and spend a great deal of time in thinking of ourselves, but is it not a helpful occupation to stand aside and to contemplate God in movements like this?

J.T. Yes; it lifts us out of the realm into eternity.

J.B-t. Everything is for God here.

J.T. It is for Himself; and so, that being laid down as a general basis, we have His will, "The good pleasure of his will", "The mystery of his will", and "The counsel of his will". Now, God is having His way, as in the material creation, when "He spake and it was done, he commanded and it stood fast" (Psalm 33:9). Otherwise, you could not have had a

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system such as we have. Here it is the "good pleasure of his will". Think of what that must be! Then there are the "mystery of his will" and the "counsel of his will".

A.M.H. Would 'will' be the way in which love would take form?

J.T. That is what I was thinking; He says virtually, 'I have got the very best thing there is; I am going to unfold that and nothing can stand in the way'. His will means that everything must give way. Is that what you think?

A.M.H. Yes, though I feel very weak on Ephesians. Blessed in the heavenlies, I suppose that is, in a sense, to be outside of ourselves, in the place where He has secured the blessing for us. Spiritual awakening to the position in which we are set would enable us, when it comes to our side, to meet every obstacle.

E.G.McA. Would you tell us the difference between His will in Colossians 1:9, "That ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will", and in Ephesians? Here it is "The good pleasure of his will".

J.T. There it is simply that the saints should have the knowledge of it, but here it is working according to it. It is not a question of our side; it is what He is doing. It is an immense thing to get it into your mind that the thing that He is going to unfold and establish permanently (His will) will break down everything contrary. "He spake and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast" (Psalm 33:9).

W.M. This was before the principle of responsibility entered; there was no human responsibility when this counsel was taken.

J.T. God is acting from Himself here for the satisfaction of His love, and the result in blessing must correspond; and nothing can prevent it.

A.F.M. Just cite those three things again, please. Would you mind applying them?

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J.T. The first is the good pleasure of His will in verse 5, "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved". This is where the good pleasure is seen. It is an eternal thing; the saints are brought in before Him in the Beloved, holy and without blame in love. That is the good pleasure of His will, the delight that He has in us as set up before Him in Christ.

A.F.M. In sonship, I suppose?

J.T. Yes.

W.M. Is it not astonishing how brief the presentation of it is? The whole thing is summed up in six verses.

J.T. It is indeed, the greatest possible things being unfolded.

Well, the next thing is the "mystery of his will". It is on a lower plane, I think, but essential, because it has reference to the coming day on earth. Then the third thing is the "counsel of his will", according to which everything is worked out. But the "good pleasure of his will" is the prominent thing.

J.B-t. The full result?

J.T. Yes.

W.M. The others are a matter of working it out.

J.T. I think the other two are subordinate to the first. 'Counsel' would involve the wisdom underlying it all.

Ques. How does that connect with the scripture in Hebrews 10:10, which says, "By the which will we are sanctified, through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all"?

J.T. There it is in contrast to the offerings. It is a reference to the Old Testament system -- "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first that he may establish the second, by the which will

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we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ".

A.L. It seems to set forth the sovereignty of God's will here: "After the counsel of his own will".

J.T. It is very strengthening to the heart to rest in what God is doing. He is acting for Himself. I like to go back to the physical creation. There was no one to interfere; there is not a word said as to any opposition to God then. The thing was done by His word and by His commandment. Well, now He is operating in a spiritual sense; there is opposition, but everything must be brushed aside for this. It is a question of His will.

W.M. The material creation was for His pleasure also.

E.G.McA. The wonderful thing for our hearts is that He works according to the counsels of His own will that we might be brought to the highest place of blessing.

J.T. Is not that wonderful? All is subordinate to the first main thought; that is, what He purposed in Himself before the foundation of the world. That is final; it is to abide. It is the good pleasure of His will to have us before Him in sonship, holy and without blame in love. He has got that before Him, and now all else must be subordinate.

A.M.H. That gives you great confidence in your conflict and your exercises for the saints in prayer. Would it not be what gives you great stability there? God's will, as you say, must go through. Whatever obstacle you see, you are content to wait; you know you have got the mind of God, and what is of God will stand. Is that why he goes on to the thought of conflict at the end of the book?

J.T. I have no doubt; we are fully furnished, because it is a question of the whole armour of God. That is the manner in which God comes out to fulfil

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His counsels. He is clothed with a certain armour, as it were, and we take that on.

R.S.S. Would you say that that is the ark? It had such a place in the book of Joshua.

J.T. I think so. It represented Christ, first of all, as an attractive object, but when you come to Joshua 6 it is carried around Jericho. It is the beauty and power of Christ carried by the priests, and the testimony of the priests blowing the trumpets.

A.M.H. How do you mean that? Do you mean that it is a place He gets in the hearts of His saints in a priestly way?

J.T. That is what I think. It is first going on through the Jordan. He is the object to draw us over, but then in Canaan we are delighted with Him. He is without a peer; the ark was carried by the priests, and seven priests blowing the trumpets. It is Christ as in heaven presented in testimony in complete spiritual power.

H.D. The people are now in the land, and God tells them that He planned this for them long before the foundation of the world for the satisfaction of His own heart.

J.T. So at Jericho the saints are contemplated as following the ark around. Typically, they would be delighted, as we see in Philippians 3. As you look at the perfection and beauty of Christ as in the land, you are delighted with Him. He becomes all to you, as we see in Paul in Philippians. And you see that you are apprehended to be like Him as in heaven.

A.L. I would like to get a little help on the difference between Colossians and here. In Colossians the Godhead works; here it is "After the counsel of his own will". What is the difference in the presentation?

J.T. This is on a higher plane than Colossians 1:19 - 22; it is "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". Of course, it is the same in Colossians as it is here, only the Godhead is presented in Colossians

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as coming out in Christ, and to reconcile everything to itself. It does not go this far. Here you have God the Father Himself moving for the accomplishment of His eternal thought.

J.B-t. Speaking of counsel, would it bring in all the Godhead -- I mean, Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

J.T. It would when you think of counsel, but I think it is the Father here. It is not so much the three Persons acting as the Father.

J.B-t. "Let us make man", that is what I thought.

E.G.McA. He has taken us into favour in the Beloved. That would express the thought.

A.F.M. When Paul starts the doxology, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ", that would give the setting to it.

J.T. Yes, it is God and man in this epistle, what God has purposed to bring about in man for His pleasure.

W.M. In Colossians, where reconciliation is brought in, it is on a lower level. Here it is the purpose of the Father before the principle of responsibility entered, or reconciliation was needed. It is higher in that way.

Rem. We had this morning about being risen, but this is farther on -- to be in the heavenlies.

J.T. Yes, this supposes that we are risen, of course, but being in the heavenlies is farther on. But what we were saying about the ark in Canaan appeals to one, that He now comes before us in His personal, heavenly greatness, so that the seven days' marching round would give every Israelite a view of Him typically. You are being impressed at the outset with the greatness of Christ in His own realm, in the heavenlies. It is an important thing to see that -- the difference between the going forward through the Jordan and the ark carried for seven days, and on the seventh day seven times, so that every Israelite

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would be impressed with the greatness of that, and then the walls of Jericho falling -- what a testimony!

G.A.T. Will you say a word in connection with the different positions that each one had going round the city?

J.T. Well, the priestly element is what predominates, and in connection with this Christ fully before the eye. His beauty and power command the saints now. It is a military position in which Christ is supreme.

Rem. David had the spirit of it in Psalm 132:8.

G.W.H. There the thought is rest for the ark, is it not? Affection would long for that.

J.T. Yes, but we are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus; that is, it is in Him, so that it is of all moment at the outset to get a clear view of Christ in that relation. It is not what He is as coming out, or the work of God through Christ, but what He is there -- "Blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ".

Ques. Would it be right to say that in Colossians we become extinct, and in Ephesians we are merged into one mind, "Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all"?

J.T. Quite, the body is for the expression of Him.

Rem. His complement.

J.T. We come down to that at the end of this chapter. He is Head to His body, the assembly, the fulness, but, first of all, there is this thought of getting hold of Christ as He is in heaven, apprehending Him as He is in heaven, and I have no doubt that this was the point in the Israelites following the ark round Jericho. They would get a wonderful view of it.

A.F.M. This marching round Jericho was a military exercise, yet your attention is drawn to this Person as supreme.

J.T. Yes, that is what is important. The Old Testament never gives you the very image of the

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thing. You do not get the transaction at Jericho repeated; it is for one purpose, that Christ may come into prominence in the minds and hearts of the saints; that He may come into prominence as He is in heaven; and that is what you get in John 20:17, "I ascend". The emphasis is on that. "Say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father".

A.F.M. There were seven days, and seven times on the seventh day.

J.T. So you can see what an opportunity they would have to get a view of Christ, day after day, and then seven times. How a true Israelite would be impressed with that! It would bear on him ever afterwards. It would enter into all that followed. What do you think about that?

A.M.H. I thought it would in that way identify the people in their state with the ark, what is made good in the Spirit down here; that is, in affection in the saints. Apprehending what is set forth here in a measure, going round the city with the ark, would be the continual fresh impression of Christ in that character.

J.T. Joshua at the end of chapter 5 says, "Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?" But that is not the thought at all. This book is what Christ is in relation to the purpose of God -- that is a different matter altogether.

Rem. In Philippians 3 Paul is pressing forward to the calling.

J.T. That is the thing. He was aiming at "The calling on high of God in Christ Jesus".

A.L. This thought of the heavenlies in Christ seems to unfold. We could not enter into it unless we had the second chapter. It involves resurrection; it is not on earth, it is in the heavenlies. It has been pointed out that you must be in the heavenlies first.

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J.T. The point is the place of the blessings, to show the greatness of the thing. It is what God purposed in Christ before the foundation of the world for Himself. That is the important point in Ephesians.

We must get hold of what the Spirit would emphasise in this consideration. Joshua was told, "Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy" (Joshua 5:15). You are impressed with having to do with heavenly things, and so in the next chapter the city was shut up on account of the children of Israel. They were to take possession, so the ark has to be carried by the priests, because the thing is to get a view of Christ as He is in heaven.

G.W.H. Would not the transfiguration help?

J.T. Somewhat; it is the power and glory of our Lord Jesus Christ, but this really goes beyond anything else -- what He is in heaven.

W.M. Do you not think that this is manifested by the fact that the testimony of the Ephesians was not to men on earth? It was to principalities and powers in the heavenlies.

J.T. That is the thing. You see the elevation we are on, that it is "To the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies".

W.M. In Corinthians it was to men.

J.T. Quite, what is down here, but in Ephesians what is to be displayed is the assembly, "In order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God" (Ephesians 3:10). How can we come into that save as we apprehend Christ there, and I think that in the seven days in which the ark is carried around, the saints are impressed with the greatness of Christ.

Rem. These two words we have here are suggestive, "the beloved".

J.T. You are now dealing with expressions that

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belong really to heaven. We are dealing with wonderful things, and one feels how important it is to, as it were, take off one's shoes and follow the ark, so as to be impressed with the greatness of Christ.

A.M.H. That expression very much gives you the difference between Colossians and Ephesians. It is the beloved One in whom God finds His delight and satisfaction. The kingdom of the Son of His love is more the way in which He has come out to us down here, but this is what God is doing up there and bringing us into it.

J.T. That is the thing; the difference is just there between the Son of the Father's love, in relation to the kingdom, and the Beloved.

W.M. I suppose that this is the moral reason why there is no mention of the rapture in Ephesians.

J.T. We are already in heaven according to chapter 2. Our blessings are all in the heavenlies; then we are raised up. It is not resurrection in the ordinary sense; it is elevation -- "Raised us up together and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus".

E.G.McA. Then in this seven days' march the children of Israel would be occupied, not with Jericho, but with the movements of the ark.

J.T. The movements of the ark, that is the thing.

G.W.H. And the overthrow of Jericho gives occasion to display His greatness.

J.T. And it makes very little of one; they do not have to strike a blow. The thought is to get into your soul what He is in the heavenlies, that is the thing.

R.S.S. We get that, and it perhaps accounts for what follows in verse 12, etc., where it says, "That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ ... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until

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the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory". Is not the Spirit introduced here as the power by which we may enter into these things?

J.T. Just so, and the earnest of our inheritance would be that we have the thing already. You know you have the thing already, in principle, in the earnest.

W.M. It is much easier to understand Apollos than Paul.

J.T. Very much easier. It is very much easier to see Apollos at Corinth, because most of us have not advanced further. You feel that. Of course, we are glad to have the saints even there, and I suppose it is almost entirely the service at the present time to keep the saints at Corinth; there is not much apprehension of ascension.

Rem. We must know Him there to get power.

J.T. What comes out now is what our brother has called attention to -- the Spirit. He is presented as "The earnest of our inheritance". We have the thing in principle, but, knowing certain things, the apostle says, "I also ... cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him". There are the three things that we have often dwelt upon, "The hope of his calling", and "The riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints", and "The exceeding greatness of his power". These are the three things that are essential to what we have been dealing with.

G.W.H. It refers to "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory". What is the thought in connection with the Father of glory -- the source of glory?

J.T. The source of glory, I think it is.

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W.M. James calls Him the "Father of lights" (James 1:17) where all the light comes from.

E.H.T. God has got Christ where He intended to have Him, and He is occupied with Him there, whether we are or not.

J.T. "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him". It is not simply now a question of studying Christ, but the "spirit of wisdom and revelation". That is something given, not acquired. God gives it.

W.M. Ministry does not impart this.

J.T. No, it is a question of God giving it to us.

W.M. So that Paul, after all this ministry, has to pray that this may be effected.

A.F.M. Is that the fruit of knowing God, or is it to help us to know God -- the spirit of revelation?

J.T. It is in the full knowledge of the Son that you have it; that is to say, it is a collateral thing. The knowledge of God is presented in Paul's ministry in Ephesians; God is presented to me in Christ in the fulness of the revelation of Himself, in His nature and His counsels. The spirit of wisdom and revelation in me is collateral to that. I have got the spirit of it, that is, I have a way of taking things in, not merely by the study of Scripture; I have got a way of taking things in that is beyond what is natural.

G.W.H-n. Here it is the capacity to take in revelation.

J.T. The spirit of wisdom and revelation enables you to understand everything. "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God" (Hebrews 11:3). Now, the spirit of wisdom and revelation enters into that. The man who has got the spirit of wisdom and revelation knows very much more about the physical system than the scientists do, but then he goes beyond that, and he has got the

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"hidden wisdom". He has got access to the hidden wisdom. He understands God in His secret thoughts and counsels, which goes far beyond what is displayed in the physical creation.

W.M. He has the mind of Christ, that is, the thinking faculty of Christ.

E.G.McA. Why are the "eyes of the heart" brought in here?

J.T. Oh, I think to keep the affections in accord with the mind. He is dealing, not with man's lower affections, the soul, but with the higher affections, the heart.

A.F.M. What is there for God, is that the thought? "What the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints".

J.T. That is a question of what God has. He would have you to know what God has in the saints.

W.M. The inheritance is below. Is it what God inherits in the saints?

J.T. I think that the saints are the inheritance, for, after all, what would be an inheritance to God save what is set up in living affections? And then "the exceeding greatness of his power". That corresponds with His will. The will of God is carried out because of His power. There is no power to compete with the power of God as wrought in Christ.

G.W.H-n. You mean that the power is at the command of His will, to give effect to the counsels and will?

J.T. Just so, and it "worketh in us"; and so the Spirit in the apostle, whose heart is filled up with the truth of these wonderful things, runs on to where God has set Christ, "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the

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assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all".

G.W.H. It says that He "set him down at his right hand in the heavenlies".

J.T. That has reference, I think, to what God is doing. His "right hand" signifies what He is doing.

G.W.H. His hand being that by which He works; and in the heavenlies, referring to the sphere of the operations. He is above everything.

E.G.McA. In Colossians we find Him the Creator of all principalities and powers, etc. Now He is set down here above them. Would you say a word on that?

J.T. Well, this is to show the elevation to which He has gone, and the means God has thus of carrying out His divine thoughts, His eternal thoughts. His operations are carried on from the highest point.

A.F.M. The thought of the assembly being brought in at the end is to add lustre to His glory; He is given to be "head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all".

J.T. God has brought her in for Him. The divine thought was expressed in Adam and Eve. The fulness of Christ is in the assembly, so that we can see what a vessel, what a wonderful thing it is.

J.B-t. We see Him in the vessel.

J.T. One feels that one hardly knows anything of it; what a wonderful vessel it is! Consider all of this, the elevation of it, and that He is set over all things in relation to the assembly, that there should be the shining out in her!

E.A.S. "In whom we have redemption", that would touch our affections.

J.T. Just so, coming down to the needs of our souls. That is taken in incidentally.

J.B-t. Noticing the assembly in this way, as the

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vessel of display throughout all eternity, is not that the reason why He does not speak of the assembly locally at all?

J.T. It is the whole thing that is presented here.

W.M. He does not go beyond the world to come in this chapter, but in chapter 3 he goes into eternity.

J.T. Here the assembly is Christ's body; but in chapter 3 it is for God; it is "Unto him (God) be glory in the assembly by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end".

G.W.H. It is in chapter 3 also that the assembly is the vessel here in which is manifested to principalities and powers "The all-various wisdom of God", (chapter 3:10).

Rem. Will you say a word on the difference between the power for us here and "in us"in chapter 3?

J.T. I think it is the same power; it is no less. The power that "worketh in us" is the power that wrought in Christ. It is the "exceeding greatness of his power". That could not be said about the power used in the material creation. It was power, of course, "his eternal power" (Romans 1:20), it says, but here it is "the exceeding greatness". It exceeds all other power; it is working silently and obscurely in this world to bring about the divine counsels.

Rem. It is a little like the end of Psalm 72, going further, of course: "The prayers of David, the son of Jesse, are ended". He has no need to ask for anything more.

J.T. There is prayer and bowing of the knees, but it ends in a doxology, the apostle being moved in his feelings, which is befitting in the presence of such a subject as this.

G.W.H. Is it that he recognises that there is reached now, and will be perpetually, the glory of God in this vessel, the assembly?

J.T. Yes; therefore, at the end of chapter 2 it is what we are down here provisionally, but at the end

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of chapter 3 it is what we shall be eternally, so it says, "Unto him be glory in the assembly by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end". That is final.

A.L. That is like the psalm our brother has quoted, "Blessed be his glorious name forever" (Psalm 72:19). He can well get glory throughout all generations through the ages of ages in the assembly.

J.T. This "Amen" has to do with eternity.

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READING (5)

Ephesians 2; Ephesians 3:14 - 21

G.W.H-n. Going back for a moment to what we had yesterday morning from Colossians 2, namely, that we are filled full in Him in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily, and circumcised, buried, and quickened -- does that give us moral suitability to enter into what we have in Ephesians?

J.T. I think it does. The 'therefores' of Scripture are very interesting. Colossians 3 begins "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ". Chapter 2 has, in the main, a negative bearing; chapter 3 is the positive based on that, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above". Colossians qualifies us, sets us free, for what is above, where the Christ is sitting and Ephesians develops what is above. Colossians is intended to release us in mind and affection, so that we may enter into the things above.

A.F.M. Would you enlarge on the difference between Colossians 2 and 3?

J.T. Well, it says, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is sitting at the right hand of God ... for ye have died"; it is a hypothetic statement, being dead being dependent on being risen, as in John 12, "where was the dead (man) Lazarus", as we read, "whom Jesus raised from among the dead"; that is, Lazarus is taken account of as having died. As risen, he has passed out of this world, but he is now ready for another world; so Colossians 3 is that we are dead, "If ye then be risen". It is not that we are risen simply, but if ye are risen.

W.M. In this sense you could not be dead unless you were risen.

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J.T. That is it, you are not practically free from this world. You cannot be dead to this world, and all that makes it up, except as you are risen with Christ.

Then, to go on, he says, "Your life is hid with Christ in God". We have the positive thing, outside of what we are here altogether. It is hidden and "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory". There is the most positive thing, you might say, that we have -- life. We are dead as regards all here, but we have a life hidden with Christ.

A.F.M. Following that, "And have put on the new man". Is that also positive? The qualities of the new man are then dwelt upon.

J.T. That is what we are as down here; he turns to the sphere of testimony. The new man, I suppose, is for the sphere of testimony here, but the opening verses of chapter 3 are really to make room for Ephesians.

A.F.M. The "putting on" is positive.

J.T. Yes; and there is the putting off also.

A.L. Do I understand, in connection with your question, that your thought runs back to Luke 15?

G.W.H-n. I thought there was an analogy, that the result of Colossians 1 is chapter 2. The saints are clothed, or vested, in chapter 2. Then the lovely fitness found there is the qualification, or suitability, to enter what is heavenly.

A.F.M. The illustration you gave us of Lazarus, I think, is good. It helps us to understand the opening of Colossians 3.

J.T. Yes, the door is open into heaven, but then another thing arises there, and that is that what goes into heaven came out of heaven.

Ques. You mean in the Person of Christ?

J.T. Yes, viewed as in Ephesians. Ephesians gives us the full divine thought of a Man in heaven.

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J.B-t. Is that what you get in chapter 4:10: "He that descended is the same also that ascended"?

J.T. Yes.

Rem. We get in Colossians 1:27 what came out of heaven, "Christ in you".

J.T. Yes, but Ephesians gives us more fully what came out of heaven: "He that descended is the same also that ascended". I think we have to understand that what goes into heaven came out of heaven morally.

W.M. You do not apply that exclusively to the Lord? It is true of the saints as well.

J.T. It is true of the saints also.

W.M. There is a general thought about believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and getting to heaven when you die, but that is not the thought.

J.T. No, it is that which comes out of heaven. Redemption sets us up before God, clears us, but the eternal thought of God was, "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Corinthians 15:48). "Such are they" -- there is no discrepancy between Christ and the assembly; that is to say, it is not exactly the Colossian believer that goes in. It is the same believer, but he has to be adjusted; he is hindered on the way. The full thought in Ephesians is that "He that descended is the same also that ascended"; resurrection is not formally mentioned in Ephesians 2. It is mentioned in chapter 1, but by the one stroke of divine power Christ is taken out of death and set in heaven, and the assembly with Him.

It is not a question of His being brought back here, raised simply, but God "Set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" (Ephesians 1:20,21); and then in chapter 2 we are quickened with Him and then raised up together. It is the same stroke of power; the

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saints are raised up together and set down in the heavenlies in Christ.

A.F.M. The first two words in chapter 2 really link it with the first. I mean the little words, "And you".

E.H.T. Is that the full assembly position, sitting down together?

J.T. Yes. You have the whole thought of God in Ephesians.

G.W.H. Having reference, would you say, to the testimony in the coming day; that is, the display of the surpassing riches of His grace and His kindness toward us (Ephesians 2:7)?

J.T. Yes, having that testimony in view, but principally in the age to come. Then, in the end of the chapter, it is what we are now as a habitation of God through the Spirit. These two things hinge on our being set down in heaven. What is to be observed is that Colossians is a corrective epistle. Romans adjusts us on earth in regard to God. In Ephesians the Spirit of God is free to develop the assembly as really of Christ. It is of Him; that is, as Eve was of Adam. Her origin was there, so she is morally on the same level. The assembly is on the same level in that sense as Christ.

R.S.S. Would the message to Mary in John 20 involve that?

J.T. Yes, I think John 20 is parallel.

J.B-t. Is there any difference between the body of Christ and the assembly you are speaking of?

J.T. No difference. The body is of Christ, only there I think it is more in the sense of the substance. In Colossians the body is mentioned; it is set over against shadows (Colossians 2:17).

A.F.M. In Colossians it is of Christ.

J.T. There the prevention of ceremonialism is in view, not the heavenly side, as here.

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It is to be noted that in John 20:17 it is not that we are simply the brethren of a risen Christ. We are the brethren of an ascended Christ: "Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God". It is on the ground of ascension.

G.W.H. Thus we are in special relationship, are we not?

J.T. Quite; Ephesians is the enlargement of this great truth.

G.W.H-n. "Raised up", in chapter 2, is that more the thought of ascension?

J.T. I think it is -- elevation.

R.S.S. You were saying that we are not only brought into association with a risen Christ, but an ascended One. What is the difference in your thought?

J.T. Well, resurrection does not take us off the earth. This has often been remarked, and it is an important remark; it is very wonderful that we should be the brethren of a risen Christ, but John 20 contemplates the brethren of One who is ascended. It is as One who is ascended that He comes into their midst.

G.W.H. It is a further thought, is it?

J.T. Yes; it shows the greatness of our position.

R.S.S. It connects us with what is heavenly. I think that expression is but little understood. I do not know that I have had very clearly in my mind just what is the import of "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended".

J.T. There were to be no relations with Him save as ascended.

R.S.S. And so He was not going to resume earthly relationships.

J.T. If it were a matter of Israel's blessings Mary could have touched Him, for these will be on the ground of resurrection on the earth. See Ezekiel 37.

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G.W.H. In point of time, when did He ascend? Is the account given in the end of Luke and the beginning of the Acts?

J.T. Luke gives us the ascension in his gospel and in the second treatise. Mark 16:19 also states it, "He was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God". Mark and Luke speak of His being "carried" or "taken up", but John quotes the Lord as saying, "I ascend".

A.L. I understood you to say before that John 12 - 16, inclusive, were in connection with resurrection, and then chapter 20 came in on the line of ascension. I thought that was the distinction you made then; is that what you are making now? I thought you were bringing out that "part with me", in connection with Christ in the place He had with the disciples here on earth, was in resurrection; I thought you drew the distinction that in chapter 20 it was the ascended One who came into their midst.

J.T. I do not remember. What I understand is that the assembly is a heavenly vessel here. It begins in heaven, and if you take up John 13, "part with me", it would include what the Lord is going on with here now in testimony.

A.L. That was the way I understood it, but perhaps did not express it properly.

J.T. Well, I think that should be made clear. The ground of the assembly is not only resurrection; it is ascension. We begin with that, but then we are left here in testimony and all the instruction that you get in John 13 and 14 to the end of chapter 16, would fit us to be here in His absence, not simply on the ground of resurrection -- involving that, of course, but we are never less than heavenly here. He is going on with that which is here in the way of testimony, and we have part with Him in it. Even in John 13 the ground is not that the Lord should die and rise

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again (although included, of course), but that He should depart out of this world to the Father.

J.B-t. Is it not noteworthy that the Lord does not speak of His resurrection in John 20, but connects Himself with His brethren as ascended?

J.T. That is the whole point, and so Luke 15:22 speaks of the "best robe": "Bring forth the best robe and put it on him"; it is out of heaven. We must go to heaven for the best.

Rem. Luke 10:20 says, "Rejoice because your names are written in heaven".

E.A.S. They could not touch Him until they had the Spirit; it needed the ascension for the Spirit to come.

W.M. The origin of the assembly is heaven.

J.T. Certainly. When it is to be developed by Paul, Peter is instructed by the sheet coming down. The time now had arrived for the full setting out of the assembly according to divine purpose, and so Peter is thus instructed, because he had the keys, that he might open the door with grace and intelligence; so the sheet comes down. This took place thrice, and all went up again into heaven; that is, it came down and went up again.

W.M. How do you connect that with the responsible assembly on earth?

J.T. This is to give character to it. Our part in what is heavenly is known to ourselves, and it gives colour to the public assembly; as we see in the tabernacle -- the blue always spoke of the heavenly. Outwardly, it was small; it was insignificant, and marked by badger skins, an altar, and sacrifices. All these things were public, but inside it spoke of what was heavenly. And indeed Numbers 15 shows that the heavenly was to mark the people of God publicly.

W.M. When you think of the assembly as in the purpose of God, every national and natural distinction

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is abolished, but in the actual assembly on earth there are men and women.

J.T. Just so, it is quite intelligible. We are here before the world to represent the order of God, and so what we are is in evidence, but inwardly we know we are heavenly, and so before Paul finishes his first letter to the Corinthians he brings in the great truth of resurrection, but in dealing with that he says, "As is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Corinthians 15:48) -- not that shall be heavenly, but "are heavenly". "The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven" (verse 47).

W.M. That is the most difficult thing to maintain.

J.T. Quite; but without it there is no clear testimony according to the dispensation. Without the heavenly, the testimony is not according to the mind of God.

G.W.H. The testimony seen here in the Lord Himself was the testimony in a heavenly Man, and there was to be a perpetuation of that here.

J.T. That is what he says: "He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13); and "What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:62).

Rem. The testimony is that we are heavenly.

J.T. Yes, and that God would set out the best in this dispensation. He sets out the best, so the prodigal is clothed with the best robe.

A.F.M. Is the thought of the house that follows, that in which the testimony is seen?

J.T. Yes, it is a qualified vessel as come down from heaven; it is qualified to set out what is in heaven. Because it is heavenly, it is fitted to set out what is in heaven.

W.M. The Lord, being here in flesh and blood, was not hindered in presenting Himself as a heavenly Man.

J.T. Not at all, the 'blue' was always there.

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G.W.H. It seems very essential that the vessel in which the testimony is found is a heavenly vessel.

J.T. Certainly, you cannot have the heavenly without a heavenly vessel, and so Peter is instructed in what is heavenly; things come out of heaven and go back into heaven. Then the prodigal comes into evidence in Acts 10. I mean that the actual thing that corresponds with the prodigal is in that chapter.

G.W.H. The Gentiles received, you mean?

W.M. I have often thought of that, because God gives them the Spirit before Peter could receive them by baptism. He "ran" to meet them.

J.T. Just so, and the same word ('fell') is used as in Luke 15, "The Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word"; it was God embracing the Gentiles. That is what is meant; the Gentiles were embraced by God, as it were.

W.M. It was indeed the reception of the prodigal.

G.W.H. Then there is the vessel here, Cornelius and his company composing this heavenly vessel. Is that what is in chapter 3 -- "fellow heirs, and of the same body"?

J.T. Yes, we are reconciled; He has reconciled "both unto God in one body by the cross". It is of great moment, I think, to understand what is best. Luke 15 corresponds with Acts 10 because Cornelius and his company represent the Gentiles embraced. They had not come into what was set up at Jerusalem; what was set up at Jerusalem was in keeping with the Old Testament. It was, of course, the assembly, but it was in a Jewish setting. In chapter 9 you have a light from heaven and the announcement, "Why persecutest thou me?" It was a light from heaven, and then the sheet from heaven, so that the prodigal is introduced into what is heavenly; he is not exactly introduced into what was at Jerusalem.

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A.L. Do you mean that the prodigal himself becomes the house?

J.T. In principle he did. It does not say he went in. The prodigal becomes the house, as it says here, "In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit".

A.L. We want some help on that particular verse this afternoon, because of what is involved in such a marvellous statement in regard to God and the assembly.

J.T. Well, it is well to see that the thing is heavenly, at any rate, as symbolised in the sheet -- something that has come down from heaven. You must see the dignity of it so as to understand how God can dwell in it.

W.M. It is the prodigal that is seen here: "In whom ye also".

J.T. He was the house himself, in principle, as I remarked, so that immediately after the elder brother comes up, the house is there, and the music and dancing inside.

G.W.H. You get the two thoughts. Christ is glorified in the Gentiles, and then there is the dwelling of God in this company brought out from the nations.

E.H.T. Where does the change take place in connection with the prodigal? You speak of that only going into heaven which comes out of heaven. The prodigal in the far country had rags on, but there was a change took place, but you still speak of him as the prodigal.

J.T. That is just for convenience. He is not a prodigal now; he is a habitation for God by the Spirit.

W.M. "This my son". The "prodigal" was left outside.

J.T. That is right; he is a son now, and owned to be such.

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G.W.H. And then he is fit for the testimony of heavenly things.

J.T. He now represents a fit vessel in which God will display His thoughts and love, and in which He lives. You can understand how God can live with people whom He can kiss.

G.A.T. It is not very easy to take in how this man has become a house. I want to get it right.

J.T. The thing is to get hold of the principle. It does not say that the prodigal was brought into the house, because the idea is that he is the house. Historically, you have God coming out to the Gentiles; that is, Cornelius and his company; He could live with them. You can live with people whom you love.

G.W.H. The word to Peter was, "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common" (Acts 10:15).

J.T. Well, that precedes it, but to live with persons you must love them.

W.M. You really live in love.

J.T. That is the idea, He dwells in love. God kissed them, as it were. It was the love of God, the Holy Spirit laying hold of them. It was the Father's kiss to the prodigal; there was the expression of affection. Well, God can live with those whom He loves.

W.M. That was what made the elder brother so angry. The younger was so hungry he could not stay out, and the elder was so angry he would not go in.

A.L. As I understand it, this last verse of chapter 2 informs us spiritually as to how God can be with us, and we with Him, because if God had remained in His own dwelling-place I presume we should not have had this verse. We have God's dwelling-place here among men, and it is public, is it not?

W.M. But it is not permanent.

J.T. This is a provisional house, but the thing to get hold of in all this inquiry is love. The Father loved the prodigal and He kissed him, consequently

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He could easily live with him. He could easily live with one He loves, but then He says, virtually, If I live with you, it is that you are to be clothed with what is of heaven; you are to be made in every way heavenly. So Paul's ministry was to take up Cornelius and his company (the principle I am speaking of) and clothe them with divine thoughts and form them through the Spirit in the very state of heaven; that is what this epistle means.

W.M. He really takes them out of Peter's hands and gives them things "hard to be understood"(2 Peter 3:16).

J.T. Well, he was bringing in the heavenly thoughts. Paul invests us with the mind of God, with the dignity and blessedness of heaven, so that we might be here the habitation of God. Paul's ministry invests the Gentiles with what fits them to be the habitation of God.

E.H.T. What did you mean when you spoke of the state suitable for the habitation of God in Cornelius?

J.T. This epistle explains it. It points out what we were ('you' meaning Gentiles) and where we were, and how God has come in on account of being "rich in mercy"and "for his great love wherewith he loved us". That has to be laid hold of, because love underlies it. And now the investiture: He has quickened us with Christ and He has raised us up together -- that means all of us, because if love is in us we want all the saints with us. We want all the saints to go up, and so God raises us up together and makes us to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. Now, we are invested; we are set up in heaven according to God, and it is on this that the following things are based, that we are qualified to be "an habitation of God" down here.

W.M. In connection with that, have we not got to view ourselves in an abstract way?

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J.T. We have to view ourselves in relation to the work of God, and this chapter contemplates it -- not historically, but in its completeness. The work of God is contemplated in the first ten verses of this chapter; that is to say, it contemplates the whole assembly from Pentecost to the rapture; the whole assembly of God is contemplated in that which is set down in the heavenlies. We are not set down there piecemeal, so to speak; it is the work of God in the assembly in its entirety.

W.M. Nothing less would satisfy love.

J.T. No, every member of the assembly is set down there.

A.F.M. Speaking of the house, would there be two thoughts in it? For instance, in verse 18 we have the words "Through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father". Would that be one feature of the house, and then another that the character of God is to be displayed here, as we have in chapter 4?

J.T. Just so. How great a thing it is for God to have an institution here that is great enough for Him to dwell in! The Gentiles were to understand that they were equal to that, "Ye are no more strangers ... but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone".

W.M. I wanted to ask about that. Do you think that the foundation of the apostles and prophets is the foundation they laid, or are they the foundation?

J.T. It is their testimony, I think, therefore the foundation they laid.

R.S.S. Going back to Luke 15, is the best robe Christ formed subjectively in us?

J.T. I think it is, but it is the Christ that is in heaven. That is the thing, I think, that we should get hold of, that it is Christ as He is in heaven.

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R.S.S. Would not that answer our brother's question?

J.T. This epistle is to show how we are invested so as to be a habitation of God by the Spirit now and the vessel for His glory in the future.

Rem. So that it is no longer a house made with hands, but a house built with heavenly material.

G.W.H. As a matter of fact there is one Man in heaven now -- that is Christ. But we look for the elevation of the assembly when the complete company will be there. That represents the completion of the divine thought.

J.T. It does. This passage is anticipative of that. Mark you, it is not what He will do here; it is what He has done. It is what God has done.

R.S.S. Then how can it be anticipative?

J.T. Because God "calleth those things which be not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

G.W.H-n. It is necessary for one to apprehend what God has done. Then does the work of God in you fit you to correspond with that?

J.T. Quite so, you are thus in accord with the mind of God.

A.F.M. In that sense Christ has not to wait for His pleasure; the whole thing is there.

J.T. That is right, and so when we come together in assembly we ought to be in the light of this. We are not simply a company on earth, but the assembly is brought to Christ, where He is, as Rebekah was brought to Isaac.

W.M. In assembly we ought to be at our best.

J.T. We ought to understand what the best robe is; there is nothing better in the whole universe of God than that in which we are invested.

A.L. And it was always there.

J.T. Well, it is there in that Christ is there. It is Christ having gone in there -- that is the idea, I think.

A.L. How touching it is to think, in regard to

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the bringing in of the Gentiles, as we have touched on, that God should prepare this habitation for Himself in order that He might be approached and worshipped! I am bowed in the presence of that divine Being in that structure.

J.T. Then there is the Spirit's power opening the heavenly door, where we are with God according to His eternal thought, the purpose of His love, as Christ is, "Accepted in the beloved" -- a most wonderful thought.

G.W.H. Holy and blameless before Him in love.

W.M. You can see the necessity for Colossians here, where everything has been set aside -- every dignitary, philosophy, worship of angels, every element that would intrude.

J.T. So I think it would help if we note how all this came out historically. First, the light out of heaven shining round about Saul, and then the sheet out of heaven to Peter. All that preceded the reception of Cornelius and his company. You see how they are received, not simply into the kingdom nor into the system set up at Jerusalem, but into the heavenly thing. They were introduced into that, but then it required the ministry of Paul to make all that plain, because he was the minister of the assembly, as he tells us in Colossians, and indeed here; it was to him the ministration of the thing was committed.

W.M. The service of Peter came to an end in this respect.

J.T. There was little or nothing said about him in the Acts after that. Indeed, what you get of Peter after that is in confirmation of what God was doing in Paul. His epistles make for the confirmation of Paul's ministry.

Rem. Cornelius and his company are still here in principle.

J.T. You are one of them. We are all of that company: "In whom ye also are builded together,

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for an habitation of God through the Spirit". The Gentiles are not a mere appendage, "Ye also are builded". We are built by ourselves, not independently of the Jew, of course, but nevertheless we are built. There is a Gentile structure.

A.F.M. Do you view this expression here "habitation of God through the Spirit" as that which is principally for God in this epistle?

J.T. Well, this epistle is what is for God now and eternally.

A.F.M. We were speaking of it being heavenly in character, but it is on earth, and that is for God.

J.T. The first statement is the whole building. That would include all, but so as to emphasise the Gentiles' part in it he changes the thought ("ye also are builded") because really, historically, the main building was among the Gentiles. The assembly really came out among the Gentiles; there are very few Jews in the building now.

W.M. The temple will come out in the millennium in its fulness.

J.T. I think the rule of Christ in the millennium will be intelligible. It will not be arbitrary. Things that are done will be known. It is a holy temple in the Lord, but the rule is not arbitrary. It is an autocratic rule, an imperial rule, but nevertheless people will understand the meaning of things, that everything is done in wisdom. The "temple in the Lord" will involve light as to the kingdom.

A.F.M. Do you think it refers to the inner shrine of the city?

J.T. Oh, I think the city itself will be the temple. You or any of us, as we shall be functioning in that day, will be able to give an account of things. You have the principle of inquiry in Revelation: "What are these?" Well, the elder knows (Revelation 7:13,14).

W.M. "Sir, thou knowest".

J.T. That is it, and he says, "These are they",

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etc. The assembly will know what the meaning of these things is. We are learning now, I hope, so that in that day we shall be able to give an account of anything that arises.

A.L. I understood you to say on another occasion that the temple leads to the house.

J.T. That would be the Corinthian aspect of it, where you inquire, but Ephesians contemplates things in their completeness in view of the future. That is what you get all through Ephesians, and so we have the temple, not in its local character as in Corinthians, but in its completeness in relation to the coming kingdom of Christ.

W.M. Any person in the light of the temple today could answer inquiries from saints who were anxious to know these things.

J.T. It is a very rare thing to find a man who knows, and so John meets that because he presents the Lord as saying, "We speak that we do know" (John 3:11). That is the principle, and so in his epistle, "We know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding" (1 John 5:20). A believer according to John knows the mind of God about the things he has to do with.

W.M. It is very important to meet inquiries in the light of the temple, to be able to tell what is right.

J.T. I think in the millennial day members of the assembly will be distributed throughout the world and they will give account of things according to the mind of God.

W.M. We will be sent to enlighten people, I suppose.

J.T. I think so, so that you see how important it is to be instructed now for that day.

A.F.M. The increase goes on. I suppose that is the idea that should be seen amongst us.

R.S.S. But chapter 2:21,22 refers to what is here on earth now, does it not, to what is spiritual?

J.T. It does, and it is growing, that is to say,

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growing in spiritual intelligence, growing in the knowledge of the mind of God.

W.M. The habitation is not presented as such as growing.

J.T. No, the thing is growing to a holy temple.

W.M. But in the meantime there is the habitation for God.

J.T. And that, I think, hinges on the best robe; God loves His sons. You cannot have Him dwelling without love. He dwells with those He loves.

Rem. There are some strong statements here in view of what they were. Their former connections are brought up in verse 11.

J.T. It is a balancing thing to remember what you were. It humbles you, then it enhances the richness of divine mercy and the greatness of divine love that took you out of death and put you into heaven.

Rem. Do you think the prodigal would ever forget what he was?

J.T. Not in his position down here. I am not so sure about that when we are above.

W.M. We will not have the same kind of memories there. We shall think by the Spirit then.

J.T. Yes, old things will be no more, all things will be new and of God.

Ques. What about the elder brother?

J.T. He is outside. His father came out and entreated him to come in. That means, I think, the ministry of Paul. Great emphasis is laid on the fact that he went to the Jews first and that he went up to Jerusalem to suffer for his brethren's sake. It was the divine entreaty, the Spirit of God operating on the affections of Paul in relation to the Jew. He says, "I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren" (Romans 9:3). Could anything express love more effectively? But they would not be entreated. They would not go in, and so in the

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next chapter, Luke 16:23, the "rich man", I suppose, is the elder brother; "And in hell he lifted up his eyes". That is the only alternative to refusing to go into this wonderful thing that Paul presented in his ministry.

E.G.McA. In principle he could not go in because he had not dwelt in love.

J.T. No, there was no love at all. It is important to see the place love has in all this.

Ques. Are the assembly and the house the same thing?

J.T. They are the same, only viewed in different aspects. The idea of the assembly, I think, is that it is formed in intelligence. The house suggests love and family relationship.

W.M. Do you think the house is presented more in the form of a household?

J.T. Well, it is here, but then you have a further thought -- "habitation".

E.G.McA. You lay great stress on the best robe. Do we find in the assembly all the best that is of God?

J.T. Yes. As we had yesterday, I suppose the best thoughts are in chapter 1, what He had before Him before the foundation of the world. What were His thoughts then? The thoughts of His love.

H.P.W. Would the gift of the ring to the prodigal indicate that?

J.T. Yes, that is the token of love, that the love is to continue, I suppose. The kiss conveyed to the prodigal the Father's love, but then the ring is a seal that it is to remain.

A.F.M. Do you think the thought of the best robe would suggest that the assembly has the first and the best?

J.T. Undoubtedly. Now going on to the end of the next chapter, in the light of all this, the apostle bows his knees to the Father, because it is now a question of the saints coming into it; that the "Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole

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family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man". It is a question now, not so much of the spirit of wisdom and revelation, but power -- power in the soul, in the inner man, that we might be able to fully comprehend "what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God".

G.W.H. He says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith". Would you say something about Christ dwelling in the heart by faith?

J.T. I think it is apprehending Him as presented in this epistle; He dwells thus in your heart by faith.

E.G.McA. Does the "fatted calf" come in here at all?

J.T. In that there is again the thought of something special. It is a 'fatted' one, not an ordinary one. This is in keeping with Ephesians.

A.L. Does what we have in chapter 3 refer to the mystery, or is there a difference between the mystery and the assembly?

J.T. The mystery involves the assembly; this is what he speaks of in chapter 3:4 - 6, that "ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body". He is treating of the Jews and Gentiles being brought together in this remarkable way; that is, he is treating of what comes out, as has been remarked, from Acts 10 onward, but then in chapter 1 the mystery of His will is to head up all things in Christ, things in heaven and things on earth, "even in him". It is more of a political nature, so to speak, whereas

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the saints by themselves are brought together in one body in this chapter.

A.F.M. This comprehending seems to be a most marvellous thing -- "comprehend with all saints" these wonderful things. What does all this involve?

J.T. It is well to look at the verses following those I read. He says: "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: to the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the assembly the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Ephesians 3:9 - 11). That is what He is working out here, what God has brought about, and I again refer to the Acts, because it is well to see how the thing works out historically, what God has brought about in the body that He has formed by the glad tidings. It has all come about by the glad tidings Paul preached. He preached the Son of God, and in the preaching of the glad tidings, he gathers out a company from among the Jews and among the Gentiles, that God formed here in intelligence, in such intelligence that the all-various wisdom of God was seen in it by principalities and powers in the heavens.

W.M. God's masterpiece.

J.T. Exactly, and so it reminds you incidentally of what early Christians were, what Paul's converts were, as at Antioch and all the other companies formed by Paul; how instructed they were, and what love they had! So the example is given as in Acts 20, for there we see the full height of Paul's ministry. The point was that they loved. They had intelligence, for they had the whole counsel of God declared to them; but they loved.

W.M. Do you not think that the apprehension of

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the great universe of bliss depends upon the Head dwelling in our hearts?

J.T. That is what Paul is coming to, because he would have this continued. I have no doubt that what he contemplates here already existed through his own personal ministry, but the thing is that it should continue. For this cause Paul wished Timothy to "abide still at Ephesus" (1 Timothy 1:3). There was need that Timothy should be there so that the thing should be continued. It was a great thing; it was, as has been remarked, the masterpiece of God. Paul brought it about under God. Well, now, thinking of all this, as we have it in these verses, he says, "I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". What could he do more than enlighten them? God alone could work in them, and so he prays to the Father; I do not think "our Lord Jesus Christ" should be there, because it is a question of the Father -- of whom every family is named.

Ques. Does this wonderful work of God and faith go hand in hand, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith"?

J.T. Just so. The apostle now shows that all he could do was to pray, and, of course, we can do that even now. We can all do it as having the light, because this epistle teaches us that God does "exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think", and therefore Paul gives us a lead in that direction. He says, "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye

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might be filled with all the fulness of God". His prayer was very comprehensive, and I think God greatly values prayers that are comprehensive, that make great demands on Him. He loves to have great demands made on Him, and Paul bowed his knees, which is a very peculiar thing -- I mean, it is unusual.

A.F.M. Was it excessive exercise?

J.T. I think so.

A.F.M. It was work that only God could do.

J.T. All Paul could do now was to bow his knees and pray.

W.M. He wanted this family to be in the fulness of blessing. There are many families in heaven.

J.T. The prayer was that they should be subjectively equal to their position.

E.G.McA. In regard to "All the fulness of God", is it that God's thought for the assembly might be fully seen in the assembly now?

J.T. It is the only way that I understand how we shall be in eternity, because as finite beings we could not be there save as filled "to all the fulness of God". There is no room for speculation or anxiety. We cannot comprehend what He does; that is beyond us. Only God can take in eternity, or even ordinary space -- physical space, we cannot take that in -- so that, being filled unto all the fulness of God, there is no room for any speculation. You are filled, and there is nothing more needed.

W.M. Simply a vessel for the display of God.

J.T. And a full vessel, "filled to all the fulness of God". That, I think, is the solution; it is the only way I can understand how we shall be with God eternally. There will be one Person there whom we can love, whose love we know, the love of Christ, a Man. We know a Man's love, the love of Christ. We know that and then "filled to all the fulness of

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God" we are steadied. There will be nothing to cause speculation or unrest.

A.L. And that leads to the doxology.

J.T. That is it. Paul has come to that here. It is now a question of God with him. He is moved to worship in the contemplation of what God is in the accomplishment of His counsel in Christ.

A.F.M. It is like the verse "And filled with Thee, the constant mind, Eternally is blest". (Hymn)

J.T. That expresses it perfectly -- the "constant mind".

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THE JUDGE OF ISRAEL

John 18:19 - 24; Micah 5:1; Judges 8:18,19

In reading these scriptures I have in mind to enlarge on the idea of judgment; not judgment as conveying what is punitive, but authoritative discrimination amongst the people of God. We have the announcement in the gospel that, "He hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead" (Acts 17:31). The world will thus have an authoritative, discriminative rule, under which men will be in peace and prosperity. The Lord Jesus, I need not say, is that Man; and that God has approved Him in that He has raised Him from the dead. The divine approbation thus expressed has reference to His ability for this service -- ability which shone in Him in the days of His rejection.

And so the Judge of Israel, as we read in the prophet, was smitten upon the cheek. In introducing among men what is befitting to a judge in the way of testimony, our Lord Jesus Christ incurred this ignominious persecution; a fact which should appeal to us as we do not want to be behind Him in anything. And if we have to bear testimony to the principles of judgment among the people of God, we must be prepared to be smitten on the cheek. And so the Lord, as before the high priest, bears witness to this great principle. It is wonderful to think that in these moments of supreme trial, the prince of this world having come and having succeeded in arresting Him and arraigning Him before the high priest in Jerusalem, He should bear witness to the principles that should govern a judge. He was the Judge, not Caiaphas! But the latter being as yet in Moses' seat,

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our Lord in beautiful humility would recognise him; and yet call attention in His own way to the principles that should govern a judge. And so He says, "I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. Why askest thou me? Ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold they know what I said". And the Judge of Israel, who knew the law perfectly, and who was announcing it in His own perfect way, is smitten upon the cheek. Is that to pass? He could well afford to let it pass, if it were only a personal question, for He had taught that if one were to smite thee on one cheek, he should turn to him the other. It was not a matter of personal vindication. It was a matter of setting out the fundamental principle of judgment. "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why smitest thou me?" It is a question of righteousness in judgment. The Judge of Israel was setting out in the presence of the greatest opposition the principles of judgment, and He was smitten upon the cheek. I mention all these things about the Lord Jesus because they contain what I intended to present, and also because one loves to begin with Him in regard to every subject.

So I proceed to the passage in Judges, because I wish to show that Gideon, undoubtedly a type of Christ as a judge in Israel, had brethren. And these brethren bore his marks. And so as we are called upon to judge and to exercise influence amongst the people of God, it is of great moment that we should be like the Judge of Israel. Gideon had brethren, and these brethren, by the testimony of their slayers, were like Gideon, and by his own testimony they were the sons of his mother. On the one hand, they had a royal resemblance, and on the other, they had the training of a true mother. Now having these brethren of

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Gideon in mind, as we are the brethren of Christ, and thus qualified for judgment, I wish to briefly review the judges of Israel up to Gideon. Before proceeding to that task, I would be very direct, without having reference to anything special, but to the general state of things among the people of God. One of the crying needs of the moment is the expression of judgment, of righteous discrimination. So the apostle in writing to the Corinthians, who were misjudging him in the most ungrateful manner, says, "Now I pray to God ... that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates" (2 Corinthians 13:7). And again in treating of the people of God appealing to the law of the land, he says, "Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you?" (1 Corinthians 6:5). As it were, one of the royal lineage, one of the culture of the mother, who could adjudicate between his brethren according to God? You see how essential therefore in our gatherings it is that there should be at least a wise man, and if not a wise man, a wise woman; for how much good a wise woman can do! It was a wise woman, as recorded in the second book of Samuel, who saved the city of Abel. Sheba, the son of Bichri, had revolted against David and said, "We have no part of David, neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: every man to his tents, O Israel" (2 Samuel 20:1). There was open revolt against the authority of God in Christ, typically. He drew men after him, and he fled northward and Joab pursued him and besieged him in the city of Abel. Now there was a wise woman in that city, and by her wisdom she delivered it. You see she went to the men in the city in her wisdom. Joab was pressing the siege as an able general would (how often, with the best intentions, we press things!) the issue being that the inheritance of the Lord is destroyed. He would destroy a whole city in order to get Sheba. And it says, "Then the woman went unto all the people in her wisdom: and they cut off

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the head of Sheba the son of Bichri, and cast it out to Joab" (chapter 20:22). And Abel was saved. You see, therefore, how important it is, how absolutely essential it is, if the saints, the inheritance of the Lord, are to be saved, that there should be wise men amongst us. Even one wise woman in a meeting under these circumstances may save it from damage. In her wisdom this woman carried the people with her and reached the offender, the root of the difficulty thus reached, the city was saved.

Now I proceed to review the judges of Israel so that we may see the features that are essential to judgment. Most of us doubtless know that the effect of good judgment among the people of God is that they rest. The first judge was Othniel. I wish to dwell on him, because unless we understand what Othniel represents, we shall scarcely be able to judge intelligently in Israel. He was the son of Caleb's younger brother, thus of excellent family connection. He belonged to the family of faith. And so when Caleb offered his daughter as a prize to him who should take Kirjath-sepher, Othniel takes it -- the city of the book. No one can exercise influence according to God among the saints until he has come to the overthrow of the books of this world. A man who lives in the religious or secular literature of the day cannot rule the people of God. We have to be on our guard as to the things by which we are influenced, and what can be more influential than the literature of the day? How steeped in darkness and confusion men are! And by such influence we become unfit to rule or sway the saints according to heaven. Othniel gets Achsah, a type of the assembly. He is in relation in a sense, typically, with the assembly. We have got to apprehend the assembly according to what it is to Christ in order to exercise right influence. We are reminded of one who rejoiced in his sufferings for the body of Christ. We have to see its intrinsic worth.

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"Christ also loved the assembly, and gave himself for it" (Ephesians 5:25). If I am to rule in it, I must be in accord with it, and know something of its preciousness to Christ. And so Othniel obtains the prize. She was worth having and he knew it. Her worth soon manifests itself; as she meets him she would have him ask her father for springs. This is of the greatest importance. We must have springs. There must be resources. The initial energy I may have will soon fail me. There must be springs. "And she said unto him, Give me a blessing: for thou hast given me a south land; give me also springs of water". She had a favourable position spiritually, a south land is favourable -- but that did not suffice. The light of Colossians and Ephesians combined will not suffice; we must have springs. How we need the Spirit! "And she lighted from off her ass; and Caleb said unto her, What wilt thou? And she said unto him, Give me a blessing: for thou hast given me a south land; give me also springs of water". And so her father gives her "the upper springs and the nether springs" (Judges 1:14,15). Now this is Othniel's wife. You see how enriched he is. An impoverished man, spiritually, cannot influence the people of God. The idea begins with Othniel. He is a man of affluence spiritually, and his wife is a woman of affluence. They belong to Caleb's family of faith. And so Othniel is the first judge of Israel. And what a judge he is, as I have been showing! I only mention it that we might seek to emulate him; our attitude toward our brethren must be in grace and patience. "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war". He is one of the few of whom it is said, "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him" (Judges 3:10). God would see that the judgment of His people was by the Spirit. And so we find that he judged Israel and made war. Now the enemy was Chushan-rishathaim, king of Mesopotamia. He was a man of earthly resources,

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the "land of the two rivers", as the name signifies. Rivers are resources, and sometimes, as here, they are sources of influence in an earthly way. And so a man of earthly resources had power over the people of God for eight years. But the Spirit of God comes upon Othniel and he judged Israel and went to war. What weapons he used it does not say; but would not rely on material resources. "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he judged Israel, and went out to war: and the Lord delivered Chushan-rishathaim, king of Mesopotamia into his hand; and his hand prevailed against Chushan-rishathaim". And then the land had rest. How one longs to see that! The saints having rest, particularly in certain localities, as the outcome of right rule and judgment.

The next judge was Ehud. He was a left-handed man. He had to do with the king of Moab, a fat man, who having resources, is engrossed in his fat, is occupied with what he has got, a man of pride -- the fat signifies pride. How much of that we have to contend with! One knows it in one's own heart. Pride is ever ready to show itself. I have to deal with it in myself, if I am to deal with it in others. And so Ehud makes a dagger. He is a man of personal resourcefulness. He is not presented to us as a man of means, but a man of skill. He is out of the ordinary -- a left-handed man, but he knows what is needed. You see I have to know what is needed, because the enemy is ever changing his mode of attack. If he comes now with a man of great earthly resources, another time he comes with a man full of pride, who by means of his forceful rule, would captivate the people of God. What is needed is a man of divine skill. He makes a dagger with two edges. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrews 4:12).

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We have to do with the underlying condition. Men have to be exposed. Pride has to be exposed. And so this second judge has a dagger of a cubit length and he uses it dexterously, and overthrows the enemy and the land had rest eighty years -- a remarkable result. How God may use one man who sees what the enemy is doing! How God may use a man who is skilled in the word, in the word of righteousness! Untrue things may be passed from lip to lip -- Satan thus works. Whereas a man spiritually developed is skilled in the word of righteousness and he will search the thing out, bringing the word of God to bear on it. Ten thousand men, all fat, and all men of valour were slain. And the land had rest eighty years.

The next judge is Shamgar, a man of experience. He slew six hundred Philistines with an ox-goad. The ox-goad refers, I judge, to discipline and experience. He had been in the school of God. We need men of experience. We need men of spiritual resources; we need men skilled in the word of righteousness; but we need men of experience, who have been in the school of God, who have been held in check themselves. The apostle began with a goad: "It is hard for thee to kick against goads". And what an effective man he was later, on account of his experience! This appears in the letter written to Philemon. In this epistle he is, "Paul the aged", not the apostle. He was a disciplined man. He knew how to keep his body under. We know what goads do, how they check the ox, even the most independent. Shamgar used one with the greatest skill, and slew six hundred Philistines. You will readily see how the features of these three judges enter into judgment according to God.

The next judge is a woman, Deborah. She brought in a most important element. It is said of her that she "judged Israel at that time". And it is said that "She dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah". (Judges 4:5). She

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was a woman of personal victory. And she dwelt between Ramah and Beth-el, in spiritual surroundings. It says, "And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment". There was no self-assertion about her. It was a question of moral weight amongst the saints. In fact she says, "Until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel" (Judges 5:7). You cannot resist the influence of a true mother. She arose a mother in Israel. How young believers need the influence and care and the tender attention of the mother! These are the features that enter into judgment amongst us. The mother was there, and Israel came to her for judgment. They knew it was there. They knew where the tender care was. She is the only judge, as I recall, that speaks about love to God. And those who love God, love the children of God. "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments" (1 John 5:2). Then immediately it says, "And the land had rest forty years" (Judges 5:31). Deborah can speak of love in that she appeals to the commandments. She says to Barak, "Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded ... ?" (chapter 4:6). Nicodemus appeals to the law in protection of the Lord Jesus; although in the counsel of the Jews, he appealed to the law: "Doth our law judge any man before it hear him and know what he doeth?" (John 7:51). A fine note in the midst of national lawlessness! He loved God though in a wrong position. But Deborah was not among the counsels of this world. She dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah, a token of personal victory. And she dwelt in the vicinity of the house of God and Ramah. And now she says to Barak, "Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded ... ?"

Now let me dwell for a little on the importance of the law in regard to judgment; and when I speak of the law I am not speaking of legal requirements or rules, I am speaking of the divine principles that

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should govern us. For no circumstance can arise among us for which there is not a principle to govern it in Scripture. "Hath not the Lord God of Israel commanded ... ?" "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" (John 14:21). Deborah was a lover and she appealed to divine commandments. And the result is the land had rest forty years, and in that period there was a song, a tribute to God. You see how judgment rightly exercised amongst the people of God leads to a tribute to God. "Then sang Deborah and Barak the son of Abinoam on that day, saying, Praise ye the Lord for the avenging of Israel, when the people willingly offered themselves" (chapter 5:1,2). You see thus the good results of judgment Godward.

Now Gideon is the next judge, and the greatest of them, we may say, a distinct type of the Lord Jesus. He is threshing wheat to hide it from the Midianites, and Jehovah looked on him. How delightful to have God looking on one approvingly! "And the Lord looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?" (chapter 6:14). The angel had come and sat under the terebinth. As it were, God would come to look over the situation, to survey it. What met His eye was this valiant young man. "And there came an angel of the Lord, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abi-ezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the wine-press, to hide it from the Midianites" (chapter 6:11). How delightful to God that what the people needed was being carefully threshed and hid so that they should have it! It says, "Gideon threshed wheat by the wine-press, to hide it from the Midianites. And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him". It refers to any young man or woman who would take account of things and resolve in his or her heart to seek to meet the conditions. And so Gideon said he would bring him a

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present. The Lord waited for him to bring his present, and he offers his offering and it is accepted; so that we have one who is under God's eye as delightful, his present is accepted. He has the sense of divine approval. And so Gideon is enjoined to take the bullock, the second one of seven years old. This man's service is to be on spiritual lines, and not simply a question of law, it is a question of spirituality, of being developed spiritually. "The second bullock of seven years old" (chapter 6:25), indicates the spiritual stature that is to mark this man. Seven here suggests a complete spiritual result in growth. May we not look for spiritual development? May we not expect God to come in and bring forth men like Gideon? The second bullock represents sovereignty, and the fact that it was seven years old would indicate spiritual growth.

Now Gideon is tested. Such must be tested. He has to learn that his services in Israel are to be carried on in a spiritual way, and not by the arm of flesh. And so he must be reduced to three hundred. He begins by the spring in Harod (note the spring here), but the army is too large and it has to be tested. We have to learn to be reduced. God is pleased to add to us, and may we have a hundred times more! as one said; but then numbers inflate and in the government of God we have to go through reduction of numbers, to be brought down and to learn that conflict is not by numbers, but by spiritual power, indeed by the total break-up of the outer vessel. As we see in the apostle Paul, "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus" (2 Corinthians 4:10). One has to come to nothing instead of a large army, that the precious light developed by the Spirit should shine, and thus the victory. All the features of Gideon are spiritual. The cake of barley bread tumbling into the camp is a reference to the Person of Christ. It is a question of the power of Christ. It tumbled in. It

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is a question of resources, not regularity; and Midian is overthrown. The issue was food; Christ is the bread of God.

And now, just to come back, you see he has brethren, and they resembled him. One is exercised as to whether he is like Gideon. In figure he answers to Christ, I believe. And now he challenges the kings of Midian, "What manner of men were they whom ye slew at Tabor?" Think of it, God had others like Gideon, what an immense thing in these days! But they are destroyed. And again his own family is destroyed, a most remarkable thing, save Jotham, who calls attention to the kind of a person who serves God, one who will not aspire to rule over the people of God, but rather bring in divine judgment that the land may have rest. Gideon says, "I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the Lord shall rule over you" (chapter 8:23). It is a question of divine rule. Let that prevail amongst us, and if it does, we shall have rest. Gideon's altar is very fine: Jehovah-shalom, Jehovah of peace. God is set upon peace among His people, but there must be conditions first: holy discrimination, judgment, and then peace. And hence his altar, Jehovah-shalom. How the Lord emphasises this when risen! He says, "Peace be unto you" (John 20:19). And so in sending the seventy missionaries He said, "And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it" (Luke 10:6). The assembly is conscious of a sense of peace. The whole end of rule amongst us is that there should be rest and peace. May God grant it to His people at the present time!