Pages 1 - 164 -- "God's Dispensation". Melbourne and Adelaide, May, 1925 (Volume 73).
Romans 1:1 - 4,9; Romans 5:10; Romans 8:3,4,14,15,29
I wish, with the Lord's help, to speak about the preaching of the Son of God, and the result for God intended to be accomplished thereby. Paul writes that God had revealed His Son in him, that he might announce Him as glad tidings among the nations.
The Son of God is on God's side, and has in view results for God -- both for time and eternity; whilst the Son of Man is on man's side. As becoming Man, He is available for man, and may be appropriated by men; and so in the gospel of Luke we have Him from this latter point of view, and He is seen in the weakness of a babe; He is seen in that gospel as in the temple of God having been brought there to fulfil the requirement of the law. Arriving in the temple, He is taken into the arms of one who had gone into the temple by the Spirit. He is held, as it were, by the race representatively, but nevertheless suitably, in a spiritual way -- in a priestly way. We have there God revealed on man's behalf. He should be a light, as it is said, for the revelation of the Gentiles.
Think, beloved brethren, of the immense service rendered by Him who at that time was held in the arms of a man -- held on the side of man -- that He should remove the veil that lay upon us -- that He should bring us under the eye of God, and that He should secure for us God's thought for man. How much is in that blessed Man for us, and how wonderful that even tonight we can claim Him in all the infinite depths that are in His heart. As Mary sat at His feet and listened to His word -- what disclosures there would be of what was in the heart of God for
man; and He undertook to secure for man what He knew was in that heart, so that men were not only brought under the eye of God, but through Him we have secured all that is in the heart of God for man.
But in the Son of God we have One who is here representatively for God -- He is concerned for God -- He is concerned to bring about the plan of God for God's pleasure; and so I wish, as I said, to bring out from these scriptures the manner in which the great preacher of the Son of God in his preaching (whilst announcing other things necessary for men) introduces the golden thread, as I may call it, of the light of the knowledge of the Son of God, so that there should be, as the passage that I read indicated, sons of God; that these sons conformed to the image of God's Son, should be representative of God in this world, and at the same time be those amongst whom the Son of God is "the first-born among many brethren".
Now I wish to show that this thought of sonship was indicated in the Old Testament, and was worked out there, even in persons not in Abraham's line. I want to show by references to the Old Testament that from the very outset of God's operations, the principle of sonship was in evidence. It shone particularly in connection with the two great lines of testimony -- namely, the testimony connected with written records and the testimony connected with the creation. These two collateral testimonies stand out, working the one in relation to the other, and each indicating that God intended the result of His testimony to be in man -- sonship. And in that connection one is encouraged to look at the ministry of Melchisedec, together with the ministry of Elihu and of Jehovah Himself in the book of Job. What we find in Melchisedec is that at a time when men generally had turned away from God, not liking to have Him in their knowledge, he appears in the service of God.
As representing the Son of God, it is said of him, that he was without father, without mother, without beginning of days or end of life. He was assimilated to the Son of God; being thus assimilated to the Son of God, he represents in his own person the features of the testimony whereby God will secure His great end. And so we find that he is presented to us as King of Righteousness, King of Peace, and Priest of the Most High God.
In this remarkable personage (appearing suddenly without explanation) is seen the whole testimony, or means for the accomplishment of the whole testimony of God. It is to remind us that God is never taken by surprise, and that He has, in the face of general apostasy -- of a general turning away -- one who maintains His testimony in the very highest possible dignity and power.
For we have not only a righteous man, as in Abraham, but the King of Righteousness, who can be King of Peace, and being King of Peace, he can undisturbedly minister to the people of God, for he was a priest of the Most High God. So that we have there, standing out in solitary dignity, one who is assimilated to the Son of God. In the hands of the Son of God not one iota of the testimony can slip; every thread of it is held with a view to the great results which the Son knows are cherished in the heart of God.
And so in the book of Job, corresponding with this great independent witness of whom I have spoken, you have sons of God coming up on certain days to appear before Him. Who these sons of God were, I am not prepared to say; but I am prepared, on the authority of Scripture, to say that they were sons of God, and that they came up according to the instinct of sons to appear before Him.
It is not a mere incident, beloved, that the Spirit of God records for us, that in those ancient days when
the mass of men had turned away from God, there were those who came up before Him. They came up to present themselves before Him, and so, as He undertakes to reach His great end in Job -- which was no less than sonship -- He calls Job's attention, at the very outset, to the fact that when He began His operations upon earth, "the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy". It is not a mere incident. It had a great place in the dealings of God which led to Job's collapse.
The fact is that God intended that He should be seen by Job. And so He intended in the incarnation that He should be seen by men. The great thought in sonship, therefore -- in the Son becoming Man from this point of view -- is that there should be adequate divine representation upon earth -- in other words, that God should be seen. Scripture tells us "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18). He dwelleth in light unapproachable, whom no man hath seen. But the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.
So that the great representation on earth was through the Son, and we are told, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9). Hence Job says, "Mine eye seeth thee" (Job 42:5).
Can we doubt, beloved, as to the representation presented to the eye of Job? What God presents to our eyes He intends to produce in us.
And so, in presenting the Son in the preaching, He intends to produce sons, and He does it. Hence Job says, "Now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:5,6). Is that all? No, beloved, that is not all. God intended that that man should represent Him, and immediately He called upon the three friends of Job who had misrepresented Him.
How many are misrepresenting God at the present time, whilst professing to represent Him? Better
no representation at all than that God should be misrepresented -- falsely represented. So God immediately arraigns those who misrepresented Him in their speech. He says, you have not spoken rightly of Me like my servant Job. You see God now recognises His servant, and more than a servant. He says, you are a priest; the three men have to go to Job with their sacrifices.
You see God had something in view for Himself in all that wonderful service He rendered to Job. He did not intend merely to give the lie to Satan, to bring to our attention the shame of Job, and the folly of his speeches. His great thought was to bring Job out a representative -- one to whom He could send even sinners. He was in his place like Melchisedec. He was a priest, he has seen God, and it is said that God accepted the face of Job. Who can deny that there was in his face a reflection of the face of God? He prayed for his friends -- and God accepted the face of Job, and then God ornamented him and set him up in suitable dignity as His representative in this world. He enriched him. He gave him seven sons and three daughters, and Job continued for many years seeing, it says, his sons' sons, even unto the fourth generation. What a great result in one man, beloved!
It reminds us that God is working with every one of us with as many pains, with as much interest, with as much affection as He did with that man. For He has in view that there should be conformity to the image of His Son, for His Son is the image of Himself. He is the image of the invisible God. We have a perfect image of the invisible God in the Son of God, and the great thought of God is to extend that image so that there might be extended representation of Himself. Hence, as I said, we see all the skill with which this great preacher of the Son of God interweaves the blessed truth of it in his gospel; for
the preaching of the Son of God is not merely the announcement of the historical fact that He was proclaimed the Son of God from heaven. It involves that demonstration has come about, for it is said that He was declared to be the Son. It is such an One that Paul preaches. One who is declared to be the Son of God. That is to say, there is a moral element for the soul of man in the great fact of the resurrection. So, as I said, it is not merely an announcement of doctrine. There is in the preaching of the Son of God, as declared to be such by the resurrection from amongst the dead, a moral element which, entering by light into our souls, received by faith into our souls, has its own effect -- an effect which, built into us in relation to other things, renders us impregnable.
And so the apostle begins by saying he was separated unto this great gospel. It was the gospel of God concerning His Son -- One, as he proceeds to say, declared to be Son of God. I would emphasise that, so that we might have the light of the declaration of the Son in our souls, so as to banish all fear of death and Satan's power from us. And so the apostle brings out clearly his position as a preacher of this gospel. How one is impressed by coming into contact with this great feature of the testimony which is introduced by this great servant, for it was not only when he actually preached that he served; he served always in his spirit. Coming into contact with his spirit, one would be impressed by the Son of God. He could say, "who loved me and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). He would overwhelm you with the sense he had of that great Person, and of His love! How he served, as he says, in his spirit! It was the controlling force of his life, and I venture to say he was personally representative of Christ in his life. He would convey to one's soul constantly his estimate -- his vision of the Son of God. He could say, "who loved me, and gave himself for me".
And so he refers in writing to the Corinthians to the Son of God, "Who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), etc". He could say, "In him is the yea, and in him the amen for glory to God by us" (2 Corinthians 1:20). How identified he was in his spirit with this great preaching committed to him.
So I go on to show the links in this epistle, which lead up to chapter 8, where we find the great result.
In chapter 5 he says we are reconciled by the death of His Son. It is as if God would lay special stress on reconciliation as leading up to what He had in His mind. How can we arrive, dear brethren, at sonship without reconciliation? We cannot. And in order that we should be reconciled there was the death of His Son -- that expression of love. Think, beloved, of the death of His Son; think of what God had in view in the death of His Son. He intended that we should be reconciled -- that there should not be one shade of distance; and, moreover, as reconciled (for the chapter contemplates that we have received it -- it is something to be received, as sonship is to be received), it is said, "Much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life". How many of us understand what it is to be saved by the life of the Son of God! He lives in relation to us as the Son of God, but in order that we should live for God. That is what should be going on at the present time; the sons are to live and be saved by the life of His Son. These things are leading up to the great result. There are many other things in the book, I need not say. There are many details, but they are all involved in working out what I am speaking of, what I believe is in the mind of God. How He looks at the work! What it cost Him to bring about the result!
There is for us at the present the life of Christ. How many of us understand it? It is one thing to be reconciled, it is another to be saved from day to
day in the sense of which I am speaking of it. Every reconciled soul will ultimately be saved, but what about today? God lives today as He shall live a million years hence. He wishes you to live, He wishes me to live. He is the living God. The thought is that we should be living, and be saved by the life of His Son. Think of being brought into the sphere of life. As He said "He that followeth me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12). But there is not only the light of life, there is the thing itself, and that thing, as it says here, is no less than the life of the Son of God. "We shall be saved by his life".
Now let us go to chapter 8, from which I wish to show how this life works. God intends that the flesh shall have no place in us. There can be no representation of God in the flesh. It had its day. One marvels at the wonderful patience of God with man in the flesh. He had every possible opportunity to represent God, and there was no representation of God -- the very opposite.
We find God sends His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh. Wonderful words! Were it not that the Holy Spirit uses them, one would dread to use them. Remember that God sent His own Son in the likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, so as to condemn sin in the flesh. It is condemned. And by no less means than the incarnation of the Son of God when He took on Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. God has dealt with it, and it need not trouble anyone. It is condemned. I have nothing more to do with it. And it is to the end, dear brethren, that we shall pay our debts, for we cannot represent God here as in debt. There has to be a complete discharge of all moral obligations if we are to represent God. See how He has done it; "That the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us". Just as in the well-known figure in 2 Kings, one paid her debts and lived
of the rest. It is a question of the Spirit, beloved. In the life of God's Son, every moral obligation of His people on earth is discharged, every obligation is fully met -- more than met.
These are all constructive references. So we read "As many as are led by the Spirit of God these are sons of God". You say: "What is it to be led by the Spirit of God?" The simplest way I can put it is you are led by the Spirit in the discharge of your moral obligations. In loving your brethren, for example, you are led by the Spirit of God. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". We are now emboldened, as we are led by the Spirit. As so dignified, as led by the Spirit of God, we are like the Son of God. We are told these are the sons of God, marked off as the sons of God. It is no longer a question of life; we are marked off as the sons of God, as led by the Spirit. So we have not the spirit of bondage, but we have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, "Abba, Father".
Now you see the result for God. You have come along the shining way, commencing with the discharge of every moral obligation, led by the Spirit of God, not by the flesh, and you have reached God Himself. Think of reaching God Himself in our souls! Think of the road He took to reach us, and think of the road we must take! We cannot reach God in our souls in any conscious way except by the Spirit. We may use language others use, or sing hymns others have composed in the Spirit, and yet not reach God in our own souls. We may substitute mere terms for worship, but we cannot reach God consciously except by the Spirit. He has not given us the spirit of bondage, but the spirit of adoption whereby we cry, "Abba, Father" -- the spirit of sonship -- the spirit by which all fear is cast out. We cry by that spirit, "Abba, Father". We have reached God.
I would ask young people here: 'Have you reached
God in your souls?' I do not mean do you know the doctrine of it, not that I would make light of doctrines, which are quite right in their place. But the thing is to reach Him! We cry: "Abba, Father", by the Spirit, and that cry is real. It is delightful to the heart of God, beloved. He gave up His only Son, and has received what delights Him.
Well now, I just want to say a word about the last verse I read. You see we are now on the mountain top. We read in Psalm 104:8,10, "The mountains rose, the valleys sank, ... He sendeth the springs into the valleys: they run among the mountains". What an atmosphere we live in! We breathe an atmosphere which is marked by the knowledge that we were predestinated and foreknown, even before the foundation of the earth. What an atmosphere to breathe! And so these verses deal with the hilltops of purpose, where we are by predestination. We read we were foreknown to be conformed to the image of His Son.
We have now come to what was in the heart of God in eternal purpose, and what actuated Him when speaking to Job, what He had in His mind as He laid the foundations of the earth -- sons of God. We were foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. I wish every one of us could take home with us the idea of the image. There can be no doubt that the idea will be carried on in the future period in which we shall be called upon to represent the Son of God in the administration of the world. I have no doubt about it. How shall we administer the affairs of a city or of ten cities, save as we know the Son of God? We shall be there in the image of the Son of God. Beloved, I would that the saints of God at the present time might be conscious of this coming day. Is that all? No. There is the present time, a time of representation, as that will be, and these constructive things in our souls enable us to be in true representation now.
Then there is the further thought that He should be the First-born among many brethren. Here, you see, we reach what is entirely of God. He has His family, not merely a son of God, as Job was, but One in pre-eminenee amongst many. All are to be like Him -- all like the sons of the King -- all like Jesus. So that in being conformed to the image of His Son we are called His brethren, amongst whom He is the First-born. You see how God thus reaches His great thought. He has a family of sons after the image of His Son. Every one is seen, in whatever capacity, representing the Son of God; and as representing the Son, we represent God.
2 Kings 1:2; 2 Kings 2:1 - 25
J.T. The Lord may help us to see from these scriptures the initial features of the dispensation.
One's thought is not to call attention to what is merely historical, but to show that the initial features were intended to run right through. What may be noted at the outset is the fall of one man, and the exaltation of another, that is, Christianity is displacement. There is the definite fall of what had a place, and then in chapter 2 the exaltation of another.
We read: "And Ahaziah fell down through a lattice in his upper chamber that was in Samaria, and was sick: and he sent messengers, and said unto them, Go, inquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease".
Then we have in chapter 2, "And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal, etc".
A.H.C. Do you take Elijah as being a type of Christ?
J.T. Yes. One who was tested here. Elijah had come out suddenly unannounced, to assert the rights of God, and he did assert them, God owning him in a most striking way, and then follows a comparatively long period of patience. Ahab and Jezebel represented a state of things that called for immediate judgment. Yet there is long patience, but Ahaziah, notwithstanding all the patience and consideration shown to his father, is wholly apostate. He is turned to Baal-zebub, and hence the fall. He fell, whereas Elijah represents the Lord Jesus, or the great principle of what God approves. We may regard him as representing the Lord personally, in whom there was
that which was absolutely for the approval and pleasure of God. I think Elijah also represents what God approves right through.
J.A.B. Then Ahaziah illustrates a condition of unbelief?
J.T. I think he does; a peculiar kind of unbelief. In the presence of demonstrated sin in his parents, and of all the long patience with them, he was doubly guilty. It is said of him in 1 Kings 22:52, "And he did evil in the sight of the Lord, and walked in the way of his father, and in the way of his mother, and in the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin: for he served Baal, and worshipped him, and provoked to anger the Lord God of Israel, according to all that his father had done", so that the arraignment is convicting. He is convicted. Before the judgment of God there is conviction.
W.J.Y. Do you suggest that the exaltation of Elijah implies that the man who came before him had to go?
J.A.B. Is not that principle of unbelief existent in Christendom today?
J.T. That is what I wanted to reach, and the importance of conviction. It is God's way to convict before He judges, so that the Lord said that when the Spirit was come He would bring demonstration into the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment. "Of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father ... of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged" (John 16:9 - 11). There was to be in this world a means of conviction. The Lord had in principle convicted this world, but the presence of the Spirit would be that in a subjective way. There would be a demonstration in this world, an obvious evidence of the guilt of it, so that its removal in due course is
justifiable -- "That he might be justified", as it says.
R.G.D. Would you say that Ahaziah resisted the conviction of the Spirit when he sent a company to apprehend Elijah on the hill?
J.T. That is right. He was resisting the testimony of Elijah.
G.H.McK. Could you tell us who Ahaziah stands for today?
J.T. The principle covers any person or power having an official place.
J.A.B. Exalting itself, and yet in unbelief?
J.A.B. Do we all have to come to a judgment as to that, before there is positive movement in the power of the Spirit?
J.T. I think so. I think that in coming to that, he that nameth the name of the Lord would withdraw from iniquity. In naming the name of the Lord you are withdrawing from something that God must remove, and will remove. You have come to a judgment about it; that is, our position is established on moral grounds.
W.J.Y. To use your expression, would you say that this conviction is one of the initial features of the day in which we live?
J.T. That is what I hope to come to, that every Christian today should come to this conviction. He should have an estimate or judgment of what there is here that is outwardly in relation to God.
J.A.B. So our souls would recognise the breakdown, and the ruin?
J.T. Yes, and concurrently with the conviction to which you come, there will be governmental action on the part of God. Great Babylon, for instance, is fallen. That was a governmental action on the part of God, in order to make way for what we are enjoying now, but there was a conviction as to it -- conviction had come in -- the thing was convicted. The
address to Thyatira shows that Jezebel was exposed, what she was doing was exposed. A way is made for the remnant, to whom the Lord addresses Himself, "To you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira" (Revelation 2:24), and what is in view is exaltation.
R.G.D. Would you say in that sense that great Babylon is judged typically in Ahaziah?
J.T. That is the principle of it. The governmental action of God has brought her down, and she has become a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. She is a cage.
G.H.McK. Would you say that is the case now, morally?
J.T. That is what exists, exactly.
A.L.M. Where does the conviction take place?
J.T. In the people of God. The point is that there is such a thing as conviction. It does not appear that Ahaziah was in any way convicted, but the conviction is here. The evidence is against him.
W.J.Y. Do you think that it is fundamental for our souls to enter into it?
J.T. I do not see how we can be representative in any way now, save as in that conviction. What comes to light in 2 Timothy is that we have got a seal, which I apprehend signifies the power of representation.
J.A.B. Does the third captain that presents himself before Elijah represent a man who has got some light as to what God is doing?
J.T. I think that is important to notice, showing that grace was available where there was self-judgment. No doubt, in the history of the assembly this very feature has come out where the mind of God has been seized in any measure, even though one is in the employ, or officially identified with, the man who is fallen; grace is operative, and it saves. The Reformation, as we call it, in Christendom, may illustrate this. Grace was operative.
J.A.B. So that mercy really shines through God's government?
J.T. That is it, I think. It is most important to see that the government of God acts concurrently with His operations in His people, so that the way is made for us. We can reckon on that.
J.N.B. Then we can take notice of every public action of God of that character?
J.T. Yes. And you pray for those in authority, because God uses them, whether they may be aware of it or not. God uses them.
W.J.Y. Might we not be a good deal separated from all that is official around us, and yet be very weak in the conviction you are speaking of?
J.T. That is what I thought. You get at something which establishes a great moral foundation when you have the seal, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity". Then the other side is, "The Lord knows those that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19).
W.J.Y. So that, in coming to a judgment and withdrawing, you get a sense of the Lord; and His power supports you.
J.T. Yes, and also that He will in due time deal with that from which you have had to withdraw, because if you have to withdraw it means that God has to deal with it, otherwise you would not withdraw from it.
R.G.D. Is that illustrated in Moses when he says, "Get ye up"?
J.T. Just so. God was going to destroy them. As withdrawn, I think we may hope to be in some sense representative, because the seal involves representation. That is, you are representative on moral grounds.
J.N.B. Of what are we representative?
J.T. Of God, in those altered conditions.
J.A.B. So, as our brother suggests, the two sides
would be withdrawing from evil, marked by separation, and that which is positive, marking the people who have come to that judgment.
J.T. Quite. There is amongst them, or in each of them, the conviction of this world as it stands, especially as to what pretends or professes to represent the Lord.
R.G.D. Would you say that we are in the midst of that which is withstanding the testimony all the time?
J.T. That which claims to represent the Lord is really the opposing element now.
G.A.v.S. Would you say that there is a great deal of acquiescence without conviction among God's people; that they acquiesce in the thought of God's judgment of things without having really received the conviction of the Spirit, and until there is that conviction wrought in the souls of the people of God there is no room left for God to come in governmentally?
J.T. That is right. Hence, one who is really convicted of the conditions around keeps clear of them. He holds himself free of them, and thus he has got moral power. He knows that God's people are in these things, and he knows that the Lord knows them, too. But his power of representation lies in his rigid separation.
J.T. Quite. Lot had no power, whereas Abraham had.
T.R.Y. Would you say that conviction is continuous?
J.T. It has to be maintained. Abraham, it says, dwelt by the oaks of Mamre. That was where he dwelt. Lot was captured. Abraham was available to rescue his brother, but, on returning after the rescue, he steadily refused to take anything from the king of Sodom.
J.S.B. Has not conviction always to do with the conscience? If so, where does the heart come in?
J.T. The heart is the seat of the higher affections, and it leads you to seek after your brother. It was the heart that was active in Abraham's case, and he undertook, and was in readiness, to rescue his brother. He had three hundred and eighteen trained servants in his house, and he took his life in his hands with these men, and pursued the enemy to Damascus, a long way from Hebron, and rescued his brother.
A.L.M. Does Rahab suggest the kind of spirit you are thinking of?
J.T. Yes. She had the flax spread out on her roof. It is the same thing. It is the principle of purity, so that it is, "Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness" (2 Timothy 2:22). Because in the pursuit of righteousness, as in the position of judgment of the official systems around, one has moral power, and, in some sense, there is a representation of God in these days.
G.H.McK. With regard to this question of conviction, Ahaziah had a fall, but he did not immediately die.
J.T. I think that is how matters stand today. Everything is put off. The government of God is going on, but the final act of judgment is yet future.
G.H.McK. Ahaziah was suffering from the fall; he knew something was wrong.
J.T. I do not think that Babylon has taken any notice. No doubt, they are well aware of their changed circumstances, and they are making every effort to recover lost ground, but they cannot. The fall is irretrievable.
J.A.B. Does Elisha represent soul movement that follows conviction?
J.T. I think he understands what is imminent. He understands that the Lord is about to take up Elijah. That is, he is in the full light of the one who is exalted. The great thing is the principle of exaltation, what is going up. With everything in the world
now the trend is down, no matter how you look at it, down, down! Whereas the testimony of God is up. That is the principle. That is how matters stand now. I believe the Lord would encourage us on these lines to see that the principle is elevation or exaltation. We are waiting for it, and the expectation should be reflected.
A.H.C. In Revelation 4, it says, "Come up hither". Is that the viewpoint we should have?
J.T. I think so. John had gone through the experience recorded in the earlier chapters, and now it is "Come up".
W.J.Y. Does that which you have before you as to exaltation come out fully in 1 Corinthians 15, that without the understanding of the resurrection of Christ, and the raising up of Christ, everything was gone in Christianity?
J.T. They were denying the resurrection. Here the sons of the prophets would deny the ascension. That was the great effort of Satan through them.
E.S.W. Do the sons of the prophets in any way represent Christendom today?
J.T. Yes, I think they do. They represent those who have inherited light. It is not light that has been reached by one's own experience or exercises, it has come down. It is a common heritage, but that does not help. It may be turned into the most insidious opposition. You see, they knew about the exaltation of Elijah, but then they did not follow him, and, finally, when it came to the Jordan, they were fifty men strong. There is a worldly touch with that; they were in keeping with the principles of Ahaziah, and these fifty men are employed to set aside, if possible, the great truth of the ascension of Christ. It shows that we may be doctrinally right -- many may have the doctrine of the coming of the Lord and the rapture -- yet really not believe it in heart.
A.L.M. Whatever they knew did not constitute them followers of Elijah.
J.T. No. Moreover, Elisha knew better. There are those who make much of these things -- the coming of the Lord and other truths -- but there are those who know better. "I also know it: be silent!" He had it first-hand.
R.M.Y. He knew the moral reason for it.
A.L.M. They did not believe it, or else they would not have sent the men to look for Elijah afterwards.
J.T. No, they did not. So I think we are warned of the danger of holding things merely as crystallised doctrine.
J.A.B. And yet that place of inherited light is a place of privilege in a sense, is it not? Because, later on in the book, we find certain movement and exercises, movement in position. To have a place of light is a privilege.
J.T. Surely. They come out later, the sons of the prophets. Some of them came into accord with Elisha, but I think these fifty represent the worldly features of those who profess to hold the fundamental principles, as a creed, as a doctrine, without really believing them, without being characterised by them.
W.J.Y. Would it suggest what is Laodicean?
J.T. I think it contributed very largely to Laodicea, because Laodicea is just what is around us today. It is enriched by borrowed things. What comes out later in the sons of the prophets is that they borrowed. One of the wives was in debt, and another had borrowed a hatchet. They live on borrowed things. So that Laodicea is enriched by what she has taken over, borrowed from others. There are seminaries now in which the writings of those whom the Lord has used are recognised text-books; but that only adorns the professing system.
A.H.C. They get light by it, but not life.
J.T. They get light, but it is not their own, not having obtained it through the ordered way, that is, through Jordan. You have to go through Jordan for permanent light from God. Christ had to go through Jordan for it, and He is not going to clothe the flesh with the thing that He had to die for. He had to die in order that the light should be available. You have got to follow Elijah like Elisha. You see, these men did not deny the Spirit, they recognised that the Spirit of Elijah was on Elisha. They did not deny the Spirit, but then they denied what gives the lustre and power to Christianity, that is, the ascension of Christ. They would nullify that.
W.J.Y. Are we not in this day peculiarly liable to that line of things?
J.T. I think the word is to go through Jordan particularly. Elisha followed Elijah from Gilgal to Bethel, from Bethel to Jericho, and from Jericho to Jordan. When they come to Jordan there are fifty that stand opposite. The same thing is to be seen now. Elisha is the model to be followed: "As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee". It is the tenacity of faith and appreciation of what one knows to be there, that follows all the way.
J.A.B. The principle of committal is seen in Ruth, is it not?
J.T. Just so. She would go all the way, even to death, with Naomi.
R.G.D. Where does baptism come in there?
J.T. Well, I think our baptism enters into it, only it is a question of being true to it. That is really Colossian ground, that we are buried with Him and risen with Him. You are attached to Christ in your baptism; it is not a mere ordinance to you.
P.D.S. When would you say Elisha was true to his baptism?
J.T. When Elijah cast his mantle on him he slew the oxen, and cooked them on the ploughing implements, and gave them to the people. He then followed Elijah, and ministered to him. That is to say, he had full respect for the great vessel that God was then using. He ministered to him, and so, later, he poured water on his hands. That is to say, he was entirely with the Lord. It is the spirit of a Christian who is entirely with the Lord.
J.A.B. Do these four places that Elisha touched in the company of Elijah suggest necessary exercises before he comes to the light of the ascension of Christ?
J.T. I think so. They doubtless represent different features of the testimony of God. Each one of them represents some feature of the testimony, and we have to go that way if we are to be in the testimony, because it is a question, not only of being saved, but of being in the testimony, which involves being representative of Christ here. So that we begin with Gilgal. Gilgal, as we know, would be the judgment of the flesh. Really, it is the putting off of the body of the flesh, in circumcision, so that we have no confidence in the flesh.
J.A.B. I have to learn that I cannot be in the testimony in any power belonging to flesh and blood.
J.T. That is the thing to come to; you begin with that. Gilgal means that I have no confidence in flesh. The most cultivated, the most learned flesh, is of no account at all now. That is what you have to begin with if you are to be in the testimony. And Elisha had the great advantage of being in these positions in the company of Elijah, and clung to him, so that, as he reached Bethel, he would be made conscious of Elijah's appreciation of that place. Think of how the Lord would appreciate the things of God as He was in the temple, for instance. If you were with Him you would have a sense of how
He regarded the temple of God. As He says, "My Father's house".
A.H.C. That would be Bethel, would it?
J.T. Quite. So that it is a great thing to apprehend Christ in any of these positions. He gives you a sense of what these positions are, and you get consciously into these things.
A.L.M. Does the journey of Elisha with Elijah suggest our entering sympathetically into the pathway of the Lord, and His sufferings, and the object of His death?
J.T. I think that is it. As you accompany Him, I think you come into the consciousness of these things. How blessed to be in the company of the Lord in all these positions, and to realise in your soul through His influence what they really mean.
J.N.B. What does Jericho stand for?
J.T. I think it is the testimony of the power of God in overthrowing the world. He has power to deal with the world system. The Lord said that if they had faith they would say to this mountain, "Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done" (Matthew 21:21). That is to say the Jewish system, representing the world system, would be removed by the faith of the disciples.
T.R.Y. What do we learn from the double passage of the Jordan by Elisha?
J.T. It is our death with Christ. That is, you are going through it now in faith by the Spirit. The first, I think, is that you go through it with Him; the second, that you go through it in His power by yourself. That is a question of the power you have in your soul.
J.N.B. In the first place it was his own experience, and the second time it was his coming back to the land for service.
J.T. I think that he is coming into it now in the power that he had in himself. He went over first
in the company of Elijah, now he smites the river himself.
J.A.B. I suppose the test of the sons of the prophets, as applied to ourselves, is that we might get light as to these things, and be content with that, and not really know what it is to reach the Lord in the power of His glory, so that there is that which is positive marking us.
J.T. That is the thing, to get into the consciousness of what these things really mean. Has one ever been conscious that the flesh, however cultured or educated, is of no value in itself in the things of God?
G.A.v.S. I suppose the absence of that really constitutes you one of the sons of the prophets, does it not? Really what characterised the sons of the prophets was that there was very little soul exercise very little conviction wrought in their hearts. The consequence was that they took up things merely in their minds, without having passed through those soul exercises, which involved the appropriation of the real thing in their souls. Is not that the case?
J.T. Quite. And then when we come to Bethel, it is a question of consciousness. One wants to be conscious of the house of God, what it is to be where God is. How Elijah would impart to Elisha the sense of that. With Jacob, in the first mention of the house we have in Scripture, there is the recognition of the presence of God in it. Although He was above the ladder, nevertheless, He was standing there in relation to His house, and the second mention shows that God had actually come down and stood in a certain position, and spoken to Jacob, so that Jacob rears up the altar in the place where God had stood. He had the consciousness of being in the house of God, and in it to the pleasure of God, because the drink offering is put on the pillar. If we are in the consciousness of that, we want every saint upon earth to be in it. It is worth being there, and it gives us
immense power in dealing with souls, to be conscious of such a place as that.
A.L.M. Would you say it is the great end to which God is moving, to have everything for His own pleasure? Is that the thought that is suggested to us in the house of God?
J.T. I think so. We would love to get the ear of every one of the Lord's people, and tell him that there is such a place. It is not mere doctrine, we have been there in the company of Elijah, and we speak of such a place and the way to it. Then in regard to Jericho, I suppose one would be made conscious of the power of God to overthrow it. What seems insuperable opposition may be easily disposed of if we understand the power of God.
R.G.D. Bethel is inside, I suppose, and Jericho outside.
J.A.B. So that to reach Jericho is really the end of that which began with conviction. We find that God's power is evident against everything that is unreal, everything that Satan uses to hinder that which is living.
J.T. Philadelphia has a little of that. "Thou hast a little power" (Revelation 3:8), that is the thing is there, not simply the light of the power of God.
A.H.C. I suppose we see how God works in regard to Jericho, that faith acts, there is nothing done by man in regard to the fall of Jericho.
J.T. It is the power of God, so that the ministry at Ephesus was the word of the Lord. In the ministry at Corinth, it was the word of God. Because the point at Corinth is to bring in the mind of God, setting up the tabernacle, but the point at Ephesus is the overthrow, everything is down at Ephesus. Nothing can stand against the testimony of Paul. It is the word of the Lord, what it is to be strong in the Lord and the power of His might. At Corinth it is the word of God, because it is the unfolding of the mind of God.
A.L.M. In opposition to idolatry.
J.T. You have, therefore, order emphasised at Corinth, but in Ephesus it is the word of the Lord; and then the love and counsels of God, and so forth. The world's power is disposed of by faith.
W.J.Y. Would you say something about the double portion of the spirit?
J.T. Well, I think it indicates the character of the dispensation. That is, the first-born's portion, which distinguishes our dispensation from all others. It is the very best that there is; what we may call adequate testimony here through the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, being here. Hence, there is plenty, abundance. No one can pursue these chapters, concerning the ministry of Elisha, without being profoundly impressed with the power that there was in one man, the power of God in grace. It is a question of the ministry of grace. This chapter is to show the way of it, the secret of it, how we may be in the possession of all the wealth of heaven.
W.J.Y. The spirit of the Man who has gone up.
A.H.C. Is that why the Lord says, "I have a baptism to be baptised with" (Luke 12:50)? He could not give the Spirit to others until He had gone up.
J.T. The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified, so that, "If thou see me when I am taken", is a question of the mind in that way being elevated. Christianity is something come down from an ascended Man. It belongs to heaven, as the sheet in Acts 10 indicates, and comes down and goes up. So that, it is the testimony at the present time against the trend of this world, which is down. Governments are falling, all institutions are falling, however ancient. The most ancient one is about to fall entirely and be destroyed.
R.G.D. Would you say that the double portion involves sonship?
J.T. It is the portion of the first-born; it refers to the Spirit as we have it.
J.A.B. Why is it spoken of as a hard thing?
J.T. I suppose it points to what it cost to establish this dispensation.
A.L.M. He could not have asked for a more wonderful or blessed thing.
J.T. No. God values our appreciation of what has been made available.
J.A.B. Does it suggest the sufferings of Christ and the glory that should follow?
P.D.S. The Lord says, "Whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son" (John 14:13).
J.T. I think that passage emphasises how God appreciates our desires. "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him" (Luke 11:13). God values the desire, we see the need and we ask. It is, therefore, to those who ask. It seems to me that Elisha was fully seized with what was needed. He knew it was available, and went in for it fully.
J.N.B. Does not the acceptance of the Spirit involve displacement, and that is rather hard for most of us?
J.T. I do not think that is what it meant there. It involves so much; it is no light matter that the Holy Spirit is here upon earth. We think of it now and speak of it lightly sometimes. Think of what was involved, before it could be possible.
W.J.Y. Is there not a tendency for us to underestimate the presence of the Spirit here?
J.T. Now, that is the point. Think of the cost -- the cost to God, and to Christ, ere it were possible.
G.H.McK. It suggests the smitten rock. The rock had to be smitten before the water could come out.
J.T. That is very good. The rock had to be smitten.
W.J.Y. "Greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father" (John 14:12) suggests what is involved in the Spirit being here.
J.T. It is a greater day in that sense than even the day in which the Lord was here, but we ought to take to heart what is involved, and what it has cost.
J.A.B. How does the testimony operate? Is it suggested in the incidents that follow?
J.T. I think so. Elisha comes to Jericho, so that, instead of judgment in Jericho there is grace. That is our attitude still. We do not want anything else than that. We know the power that there is to overthrow the world, but instead of that, it is the new cruse, and the salt, so that the waters are healed. Grace flows out.
A.J.L. What is involved in the garment? Elijah's garment fell from him.
J.T. I think that we give up all that we have got ourselves, whatever it may be that is not effective. The garment of Elijah is effective; it stands for the measure. There is a standard of service, which must never be lowered, so that it is the garment of Elijah that he takes up. We do not want to take up anything else. If we cannot fill that mantle, then we pray and seek to make room for the Spirit in us. That was the sign to Elisha at the beginning; he cast that mantle on him. It was a sign to him that that was the principle of service. Elisha would just be concerned as to how he could fill that mantle. So the presence of the Holy Spirit here is sufficient to enable us to correspond with Christ. It is, therefore, incumbent upon us to rend our own garments, whatever they may be. They have to be discarded. I think that Colossians is the discarding of the garments, but Ephesians is the complete putting on.
J.A.B. Do the children manifest the spirit of apostasy which was seen in Ahaziah, and therefore nothing could remain for that spirit but judgment?
J.T. I think that is right. They could be regarded as another generation descending from the sons of the prophets. We see how mere light without heart degenerates into open opposition. It is a generation now, there were forty-two destroyed. What do you say?
J.A.B. I thought that they showed the continuity of the spirit of opposition and unbelief. It had been in the parents, and finds full expression in the children, and could only go on to judgment.
J.T. It is no longer veneered in the children. Children are just what they are, you know; here, perverse.
A.L.M. I think it could not be little children. It is not exactly an infantile condition, it is the outcome of the generation.
J.T. Their will is active, they are old enough to have wills. I think it refers to a generation with these characteristics, they are opposed to the testimony of the ascension. "Go up, thou bald head". It was ridicule, the worst kind of opposition. It is well to see as to inherited light that in itself it does not save us from the keenest opposition, as to what may be pre-eminent for the moment, as the ascension here.
J.S.T. It seems such a serious thing that that should have been at Bethel.
J.T. But then what comes out is that, notwithstanding this opposition, Elisha goes on his way. "And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria". He is not deterred by the opposition. He goes on; he goes to mount Carmel, which is, I suppose, an additional feature, the place of pleasure, spiritual elevation, and then he goes down to where the opposition was, as you might say, set up officially -- Samaria, where the power of evil was recognised officially.
2 Kings 2 to 5
J.T. We shall be helped if we see that the privilege of testimony or witness for Christ is within the range of all. In the little maid in chapter 5 it will be seen how every saint may be effective in testimony for Christ. Having this in view, we may see in the preceding chapters how we are to be developed in the light and spirit of the dispensation, so that any witness rendered may be effective. Elisha is a model for us as to the place the Lord must have, if we are to understand different features of the testimony, and if we are to understand how the testimony of God is become possible. All should understand the cost, and be able to render that which is due to God in the way of dignity and power. As the Lord said, "I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued (or clothed) with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). It is due to God that we should understand what these requirements are, so that as vessels, as knowing the testimony, we may be in keeping with it. To be suitable we should be clothed in dignity and power.
W.J.Y. Is your thought that the features of this chapter would follow on what we had last night?
J.T. Yes, including the intervening chapters, particularly chapter 4, which I think develops for us how the Holy Spirit being now here (for we are in the double portion of Elisha) a believer, having the possession of the Spirit, comes into the appreciation of Christ risen, as that chapter indicates, and then also partakes of the heavenly supply. Thus he is qualified to rightly represent God. He is beyond all thought of aspiring to a place among the saints,
because his calling is too great for that -- he is set up in heavenly power. He is too great for any such aspiration or distinction that might come to him in the testimony, because of his gift. The little maid, I think, is a type of the witness thus formed.
W.J.Y. Although she was small and youthful, there was divine intelligence behind her testimony?
J.T. Yes, and her remark to her master was an exclamation. It was not a mere reference to a fact -- she was impressed -- it was an exclamation!
W.J.Y. Do you think our gospel preaching should be exclamatory?
J.T. I think it is a feature -- one is impressed with the greatness of the thing. I only say that to indicate what was before one. Chapter 4 is linked on with chapter 2, if we are to be effective witnesses.
G.H.McK. You refer to the intervening chapters -- what about chapter 3?
J.T. I think it refers to the importance of any good that there may be; grace being established, we should take account of any good even although it may be in questionable associations. The good should be taken account of -- there was good in Jehoshaphat. Elisha was very reluctant, and rightly so, to have anything to do with the circumstances but he acceded because of Jehoshaphat. Besides, there is a slight improvement in the king of Israel compared with his father. Grace takes account of every bit of good that there may be. It is the possession of grace, and the sense of the understanding of the magnitude of the reign of grace that enables one to take account of every bit of good there is.
J.A.B. Does Naaman typify a soul in exercise that becomes an object of the testimony?
G.H.McK. I was wondering what is the meaning of the water being in abundance at the end of chapter 3.
J.T. I think it refers to the supply of grace, which rises above the objectionable confederation of the king of Israel, the king of Edom, and the king of Judah, and takes account of Jehoshaphat. There was something good there. God does not ignore evil, but he recognises the good, "Were it not that I regard the presence of Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, etc". So that, we should take account of whatever good there is in the world, whatever the surroundings, for, as the Lord says, "He that is not against you is for you" (Luke 9:50). When you come to test it out, he may be against you if it is a question of the truth of the assembly, but if it is a question of the gospel, he may be with you, and we can leave it at that.
W.McK. Could you tell us the significance of Elisha asking for a minstrel?
J.T. There was no help in the environment, I think. It was a difficult matter to bring in ministry under such circumstances. The minstrel, I think, would take account of that. It takes peculiar grace to witness in such surroundings, but grace is never wanting, you are never at a loss, the minstrel will supply what the servant needs. So that power came in thus, and a remarkable intervention it was.
G.A.v.S. Do you think the presence of Jehoshaphat in that company, in that association, is in any way analogous to the assembly in its broken state upon this earth; that, notwithstanding the conditions, divine grace is towards men?
J.T. Yes, and there is recognition of the good that there may be around us in these associations.
A.L.M. Taking account of them and identifying oneself with them are two different things, are they not?
J.T. Yes. I think we ought to go with them in our prayers. It is good to be well established in the apprehension of the position which this book indicates. It is the reign of grace, and according to Luke
the preaching must begin at Jerusalem. God rising above evil, it must begin there. Then chapter 4 is the important chapter for every one of us, because it is there that we are furnished. So that one is impressed with what there is, and out of the abundance of his heart he speaks. It would be the epistle to the Romans, and the epistles to the Colossians and the Ephesians, so that it covers a wide field.
W.J.Y. Would you develop your reference to these three?
J.T. Chapter 4 gives you the whole three. I mean you have the oil -- the woman pays her debts and lives of the rest -- and then you have the great woman, the Shunammite, who is the continuation of the woman who pays her debts and lives, she comes to appreciate the vessel of the testimony. She had no previous knowledge of Elisha, it was a question of discernment. It is one thing to hear about the Lord historically, but it is another to discern who He is. She said to her husband that she discerned that this was a holy man of God. That is an important point to reach, you discern the Lord. And not only that, but she makes provision for him, and her provision is suitable. The room in the wall, the bed, the table, the stool, and the candlestick, are all suitable, so the man of God, as he passes by, turns in. He passes by, it says there; that is what comes out as the truth is understood. The Lord passes by, because now it is a question of coming to know Him. You must come to know Christ. I think in the passing by you should know Him, and it gives you an opportunity to think of Him and provide for Him.
A.L.M. How would you connect this with the epistles you mentioned? Would meeting the debts signify Romans?
J.T. Yes, the great woman herself is a Roman Christian. She was great in a spiritual way. Then she has the power of discernment, which is of immense
importance. He passes by your door. The Lord puts Himself in evidence, "Who do ye say that I am?" (Matthew 16:15). It is a question of your discernment, and not only that, but now you begin to make provision for Christ. He cannot turn in if you have not got everything ready at His disposal.
W.J.Y. And all that is suggestive of the work of the Spirit in your soul, and makes us understand what is available in Christ before there is any thought of testimony.
J.T. Yes. The woman perceives that Elisha is a holy man of God, connected with God. Then the understanding of the Lord in this way as connected with God leads to another thing; the woman had no children, which suggests that you have not produced anything yet. You have paid your debts, and you are living, but what about the continuation of the testimony? She had a husband, but no children. And the man of God inquired what was to be done for her.
G.A.v.S. I was thinking what a solemn thing it is for the saints to get to a certain position, and then overlook the importance of being productive, so that there could be that which can take account of the testimony and carry it on in increased power and fulness -- that is where the resurrection comes in.
J.T. She gets a child, but she qualifies beforehand. She qualifies by saying that she dwelt amongst her own people, she did not want to be spoken for to the king. She had her own people, but no children. It is one thing to be among the brethren and to stick to them, but if the testimony is to be continued you must have children. So that she gets the child, but she has got to learn that the testimony is not to be continued on the line of nature. It is to be continued on the line of resurrection.
J.T. I think so. It is not Christ as He was here
after the flesh, it is Christ risen. We have got to learn that.
J.A.B. What is signified by her turning away from Gehazi? She seems to realise that he could not help her in a spiritual way.
J.T. I think that is spiritual intelligence. Elisha has to come himself. "He stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm". The thought carried through in this chapter, I think, is complete identification with Christ in death. If there is to be representation, there must be identification with Christ. Colossians brings that out -- correspondence with Christ in us.
J.A.B. I suppose in the child she had an object for her affections, an answer to her desires that could be carried on in spiritual power?
J.T. All the exercises she went through and the sorrow were only to qualify her the more. Things after the flesh have to go, so it says, "The child is not awaked". Gehazi's effort was not enough. It was not a question of experience, which the staff would suggest; more than that was needed. It continues, "And when Elisha was come into the house, behold, the child was dead, and laid upon his bed. He went in therefore, and shut the door upon them twain, and prayed unto the Lord. And he went up, and lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands: and he stretched himself upon the child; and the flesh of the child waxed warm. Then he returned, and walked in the house to and fro; and went up, and stretched himself upon him: and the child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes". It was a remarkable operation.
R.G.D. Does it speak to us of the travailing exercises of the apostle? "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" (Galatians 4:19).
J.T. I think it goes deeper than that, because it is a type, I think, of the Lord's complete identification with us.
A.L.M. Is Elisha here a type of the Lord?
J.T. I think he is. It shows us how real everything was to the Lord in bringing us into life; how the Lord had to take account of every detail. It is a picture of the Lord taking account of what we were in, and what He went through.
J.H. Do you say that this is Colossians?
J.T. I think so. I think it is Christ apprehended as risen, and we risen with Him, "Wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead" (Colossians 212).
J.H. You were speaking just now of children, is it not right for a gospel preacher to look for children and desire them?
J.T. Surely. Every Christian should have it before him that the testimony has to be continued, and it is only continued in the power of resurrection. It is not to be continued on the line of nature. You train up your children with that in view, not on the line of nature, and you would obtain children through ministry.
J.A.B. Gehazi seems to have an official position, and a place of nearness, and yet is unable to accomplish anything. Do you think that might be amongst us? There might be desires to produce something, and yet while acting in the light of experience there is no power to bring the child to life.
J.T. I am sure that is so; it was very humiliating to Gehazi to have to admit that the child was yet dead.
G.A.v.S. I suppose all this comes under the character of spiritual experience with a view to being efficient in the testimony?
J.T. Yes, so that now she has got a child; that is another step in the progress of the soul, to apprehend
Christ risen from the dead, and you risen with Him.
The next thing is "the great pot", here the sons of the prophets are again in evidence.
J.N.B. Will you make a little plainer what you mean by believers having children?
J.T. It is just that you have in view that the testimony is to be continued. If one is not prolific for God, there is something wrong. It should always be kept in mind that the testimony is to be continued.
J.N.B. And you think every believer should be interested, therefore, in this fruitfulness for God.
J.T. I do indeed, and this chapter is to show you how it comes about. It is not on the line of nature, but on the line of resurrection. Children are to be on the line of resurrection. This chapter is formation, so that the experience of this woman all culminated in the little maid, and qualified her. She was effective, yet obscure.
J.A.B. Paul had a son in Timothy to carry on the testimony effectively.
J.T. Quite. The difficulty is to hide your identity when you become effective, to retain your obscurity. Effectiveness brings you into prominence in spite of yourself, but to be able to hold yourself in obscurity is the great thing. It requires skill.
Ques. That seems to be an important point, will you enlarge a little upon it?
J.T. I think the secret of it is in this chapter. It is the way God leads you into the life of Christ through His death. You get prominence in His service. No man can be continually effective in the service of God unless he is greater than his service. If he is greater than his service then he is content to be obscure. The Levites are all first-born ones, their greatness is assured. We should get the light of that in our souls. It does not rest on our effectiveness.
It rests on our calling. Even the apostle Paul's service could not add to that.
J.D.U. Is it from that position that this exclamation bursts forth?
J.T. I think so. You see how Paul, even in Romans, is moved emotionally. Perhaps the thing we know least about is spiritual emotion. Even in Romans you get it; you also get it in Ephesians.
Ques. Were you going to say something about the great pot before you went on to the next chapter?
J.T. With reference to the great pot, it is a question now of what we have in common. It refers, I think, to what comes into evidence as we go on, but it is a mutual state of things in which we all contribute. The danger with young people, and with all of us, it may be, is of introducing something wild.
A.H.C. Letting our imagination come in, and bringing in things that are not according to the mind of God?
J.T. Quite so, and we all have to admit our part in that; with the very best intentions you allow your mind to act a bit, and that is bringing in the wild gourds. Anything outside of the Spirit is wild.
J.A.B. The man who brought in the wild gourd desired to help, but he was not intelligent.
J.T. I suppose if he had listened to Solomon he would have known that it was poisonous. To use it for food was poisonous. Solomon would tell you all about botany, so that you would not be deceived by anything. Apparently, he had good intentions, but the thing was wild. The encouraging feature is that it is not beyond remedy; hence, the great importance of conference among the saints of God, readings, etc. God has blessed them because they give opportunity for correction. Scripture which is inspired of God is profitable for correction, so that the wild gourd is corrected, and you discern the evil in it.
W.J.Y. Would it be a practical application of
gathering what is wild, the question of our private reading? If we read what is merely interesting to our minds, it might come into the common pot, and have an insidious influence that we little suspect.
J.T. Brothers who are studious and have access to books are in danger of admitting the principle of philosophy; Colossians deals with this very thing. Philosophy is wild. It may seem plausible, but it is wild and poisonous, so that we have to be on our guard against the activities of our minds. In the book of Proverbs there is training for us, and Solomon reminds us of the man that speaks froward things, and the woman that flatters; and these two are to be avoided. The man that speaks froward things has authority, he speaks philosophically; Colossians urges that that man has to be watched, and a guard set against him. The woman that flatters with her mouth represents the light side of things in the world.
J.A.B. The reading meeting forms an important part preparatory to proper representation.
J.T. I think it does. It enables us to adjust one another.
W.J.Y. If you were asked for a scripture for reading meetings what would you say?
J.T. I should quote Acts 20:11. Paul conversed after the breaking of bread. Before that there is discourse. Conversation means that others speak besides yourself. So, also, I think John takes account of interchange in his second epistle (verse 12). He was not going to say it all. Mouth to mouth seems to signify mutual contribution. Do you agree with that?
J.T. Acts 20 says that after the breaking of bread they conversed until daybreak. So that the present meeting should be a time of mutual contribution.
Ques. What does meal typify here?
J.T. I think it is the ministry of Christ which is
corrective. As Paul says, "Not according to Christ" (Colossians 2:8), and "as therefore ye have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in him" (Colossians 2:6). What is in the great pot corrects and builds up. The man from Baal-shalisha comes in with what is excess. You have not only meal, you have got the "bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof". We are now in the presence of the fresh supply -- freshness. We all know what there is about the early yield -- there is a relish about it that people seek after. Cold storage things are not to be desired when you can get the fresh things. There is a great deal of cold storage stuff. First comes the bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley. You are impressed with what is fresh, the very beginning of things, you know. The barley is the first cereal that comes up. It ripens first. It refers to Christ personally, I think. It involves Ephesians.
J.A.B. Does the barley suggest all the strength there is for us in Christ?
J.T. I think it is the suggestion of starting over again from another spot. From another point of view you really begin in Romans. We begin in Romans from our side, but from God's side we begin in Ephesians.
R.G.D. Does it include "every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies" (Ephesians 1:2)?
J.T. I think so. It is brought from there. It says of the virtuous woman that "she bringeth her food from afar" (Proverbs 31:14).
A.H.C. Ruth gleaned in the field of Boaz to get the barley.
J.T. And she continued until the wheat harvest. The wheat is the saints, I think. The twenty loaves is the abundance of supply. It is not the administrative thought, which is twelve, but twenty. It is more what Christ is Himself. Ephesians is really God's
starting point. Our starting point is Romans. So that the testimony as set out in this world is fully furnished. God sets great store by right furnishing in those who serve -- we are to be thoroughly furnished.
A.L.M. Would you say that in Ephesians it is what God has found in Christ; in Romans, what God has found in us, that which has to be removed?
J.T. Yes, so that in Ephesians it is "the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ" (Ephesians 3:8). Ephesians is a letter written from the standpoint of divine counsel. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).
G.A.v.S. I was wondering in regard to Ephesians -- there we have the Lord brought before us as brought out of death in the power of God. Would that express the thought of the barley loaves?
J.T. That is right, and we are to know, "What is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 1:19,20). He is in heaven, and one goes out in the fulness of that.
W.J.Y. You seem to imply that very much spiritual formation is needed in those who serve.
J.T. That is exactly what we have to learn, and I believe that if the saints of God had learned it many years ago it would have saved us from very much sorrow. Many undertook service before they really knew Romans. Those who were effective in their service were men who continued on in their toil until they knew Ephesians. Without that furnishing you simply expose yourself to the enemy, because you are sure to fall back on the prominence that your service gives you.
R.M.Y. When you speak of furnishing, you are not speaking of gift, are you?
J.T. It is not that yet, but Ephesians gives you that, too. That is where you get it. Ephesians renders you greater than your gift. Thus you use it according to its relative value, and you see that it is for the edification of the saints.
J.D.U. You said near the beginning that all of us can have a part in this.
J.T. That is what we see in the little maid.
A.L.M. What you were saying just now about service is borne out in Mark 3, where it says the Lord called unto Him whom He would, and of them He chose twelve that they might be with Him, that He might send them to preach.
Ques. Would it be right to say that before service, lessons must be learned through following Christ?
J.T. That is what Elisha sets out. We have to receive the Spirit and then see the relation of the Spirit to that. Chapter 4 shows you what the Spirit is to you. You are furnished and sustained now from heaven.
J.A.B. I often wonder why this little maid so completely disappears: she had been formed for the purpose of testimony for God, and speaks in power, and then nothing more is recorded of her.
J.T. She is brought in here to represent the result of chapter 4. The Scriptures are always constructive; incidents are not thrown together promiscuously. So chapter 4 is to form us for effective service. The little maid was effective in obscurity. There is not the slightest evidence of any national resentment in her because of her captivity. If I am governed by national influence or feelings, I cannot represent heaven.
G.A.v.S. I suppose she shows in that way that she is one of the family of God, because she has those characteristics.
J.S.B. We can think of the little maid as one who had no gift, but who had an impression.
J.T. It is not a question of preaching here, but of speaking, the outcome of being impressed.
R.G.D. Where do the servants come in who subsequently speak to Naaman?
J.T. As the work of God proceeds all that is necessary for its completion comes into evidence. It is wonderful how things come in to help us where God is working.
A.J.L. What do you call service? What this little maid did here?
J.T. She was impressed by the greatness of the position. She knew what Elisha could do, and she did not keep it to herself.
2 Kings 5:15 - 27; 2 Kings 6:1 - 23
J.T. On Saturday evening it came before us that the little maid of chapter 5 represents the normal result in all believers of the teaching of the previous chapters, particularly chapter 4, in which we have the use the believer makes of the Spirit graciously given to him according to Romans 8; so that he pays his debts; that is, discharges his moral obligations, and lives off the rest. He fulfils the righteous requirement of the law as walking after the Spirit, and the Spirit in him is life. So that the Shunammite woman, who is said to be a great woman, is the continuation, spiritually, of the wife of one of the sons of the prophets who is said to live. Living by the Spirit we become spiritually great or wealthy. Then the Shunammite, it says, discerned that Elisha was a holy man of God. As one recognises the Spirit thus, he discerns Christ, not only as come to meet his need, but as related to God -- He is characterised by what is of God. And then she makes provision for him. The believer makes provision for the testimony -- for Christ is the Vessel of the testimony -- and also for those whom He uses. Then, being childless, she receives a child, and has to learn that she is to have him on the principle of resurrection, not according to nature. So the child dies, and is raised by Elisha. Thus the believer advances in his soul on to the truth developed in the epistle to the Colossians, where we apprehend Christ risen from the dead, and that we are risen with Him. Then, in the end of the chapter, there is a further thought, namely, that the man from Baal-shalisha brings barley loaves of the first fruits, meaning, as it came before us, the truth of Ephesians, that which comes from heaven;
so that the believer -- reaching the full thought of God in Christ the first-fruits in heaven, and the unsearchable riches of Christ, knowing his calling -- is enabled to be effective in his ministry or testimony in obscurity. He needs not to rely on his official place, or the place his ministry may give him, but is content to be obscure; nevertheless, he is effective. So the little maid witnesses in a feeling way in regard to Elisha to her mistress, and desires that her master should see or stand before, the prophet that was in Samaria. Thus we reached chapter 5, which is before us tonight, and a further thought that came out was that Naaman had to act on the word. All his own innovations or additions, such as the talents of silver, the shekels of gold, and the changes of raiment, and the letter to the king of Israel from the king of Syria, were extraneous, and had no bearing on the great problem of his healing. He had to act on the word that came to him from the little maid. That word directed him to Elisha, and not to the king of Israel, and so when he comes to Elisha, Elisha sends him a further word, and he has to act on that. Elisha does not show himself to him at first -- he sends him a word. That is, our attention is called to the authority of the word of God. If a man is to come into blessing he has to abandon all thought of his own additions; they are of no value at all, but the contrary; he has to go entirely by the word of God.
W.J.Y. That scripture in 2 Timothy 3:17 would fit in there, "throughly furnished unto all good works".
J.T. Just so. Every Scripture is inspired of God. Do you not think thus, that we, at the outset of our service, learn to rely on the word?
J.A.B. So that the servant has a sense that the word is greater than his own service?
J.T. Quite. And then Naaman, acting on it, as he finally does through the persuasion of his servants,
gets the blessing. He plunges into Jordan seven times, and his flesh becomes as the flesh of a little child. That is, he is brought lower than the little maid. He is now, as you might say, in correspondence with the vessel through whom, primarily, the message or light came to him. So that he, being as a little child, is prepared now to receive further light or ordering, and is qualified for the fellowship of the people of God. In order to be qualified for the fellowship of the people of God one has to be brought into correspondence with them in some measure at least. It is obvious that the great military leader of Syria, viewed in that light, was in no sense in correspondence with the little captive maid in his household, so that there was no basis of fellowship; but now it is different. He is no longer to be viewed in that light, but in the light in which he came up out of Jordan. Viewed in the light in which he came up out of Jordan, he is, in a measure at least, in correspondence with the little maid. I think that there is an important point there for all persons who would be in the fellowship of God's people. That is, there must be correspondence with Christ, and with the people of God. Otherwise there can be no link of fellowship.
W.J.Y. That is very far-reaching.
J.T. It brings it down within everybody's range, because we are speaking of a "little child".
A.L.M. Does Matthew 11:25 bear upon it? "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes".
J.T. Yes, I think so. And so the Lord, in Matthew 18, leading up to the assembly, calls a little child to him, and sets him in the midst as if he were to be a model, so that unless one is converted and becomes as this little child, he will in nowise enter into the kingdom of heaven.
G.H.McK. Does it correspond with 1 Corinthians 1
where it speaks of God using the weak things of this world to confound the mighty?
J.T. Yes. This little child is material which can be used. You can start afresh. All the sophistication of this world is discarded, it is worse than useless. You can begin from the bottom with a little child; it is impressionable. So that the most learned or the most dignified in the community, if he is to come into fellowship, must leave all that outside -- he comes in on the basis of a little child.
W.J.Y. So that on that line we never lose the little child characteristics. No matter how we grow, or how much we learn, we would always remain, in our spirits, in that character.
J.T. We read, "As new-born babes" (1 Peter 2:2). There you have Peter taking up the same thought. It is, of course, a reproach to be a babe from another point of view, if it be a question of spiritual stature, but what we are speaking of now is a babe in contrast to what a man may be through the world's culture and education.
G.A.v.S. Would you say that Naaman had to turn his back even upon himself as the man by whom God had vouchsafed deliverance to Syria?
J.T. All that had to go. What God may do with him in His government, does not enter into the assembly.
A.L.M. Would you go so far as to say that he did go into the waters of Jordan in the spirit of his mind?
J.T. Well, that is the principle, exactly.
W.J.Y. I have sometimes thought that we may turn our backs on personal greatness for the purpose of entering the kingdom, but then we take it up again.
J.T. We bring it in surreptitiously.
H.W. What is going to meet that?
J.T. The great thing is transparency. I think a little child suggests simplicity, transparency, he hides nothing. There are those that you have to do with,
against whom there could be no specific charge, and yet the body is not luminous; there is a part dark. "If ... thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light" (Matthew 6:22). The saints have no difficulty about you, if you are luminous; but if there is a part dark, there is reserve; and if that exists, you have to wait because the little child stage is not there.
A.H.C. Peter had to be exposed by the Lord when He said, "Lovest thou me?" (John 21:16) to show the reserve that he had.
G.A.v.S. I suppose the openness and unreserve of a little child, as seen in the saints, beginning their Christian course, is really what gives favour in the eyes of God. They begin as those who have had every possibility of reserve removed from their souls, so that they can afford to be perfectly open, because there is nothing to hide.
J.T. Quite. And the little child is easily loved. I suppose that in the whole of God's creation there is no being on earth so universally attractive as a little child. So the saints can begin with one coming in, in freshness and liberty, and we grow up together in those circumstances.
G.A.v.S. How the interest of that little maid would have been intensified in receiving Naaman back! She had an interest in him in the first instance, but I suppose that interest must have taken form and become intensified when she found him coming back as a little child.
J.T. I think that they would have an enjoyable time spiritually as he returned. But then, you see, he is not thinking of her for the moment, he is thinking of the mule's burden of earth. He is thinking of God, which surely is the first thing.
G.H.McK. Would you say how he arrives at that, because Elisha had not spoken to him of God, nor had the little maid?
J.T. He must have had some knowledge of God; we have here only a type, of course, but it is a type of the believer at the present time, he is a subject of the gospel. He has heard the gospel; the great thought in the gospel is to present God -- God in Christ.
J.S.B. The Lord took little children in His arms and put His hands upon them, and blessed them; if there is that character of transparency, blessing will follow.
J.T. Yes. And as laying His hands upon them He meant to put His own impress there. He identifies Himself with them.
But "this earth", as it reads here, has fellowship in view. He says, "Then let there, I pray thee, be given to thy servant two mules' burden of [this] earth".
J.W. Would it be Naaman's instinct concerning God that made him desire the earth?
J.T. I think the gospel, rightly presented, conveys every element that is to be developed in the Christian later. It presents God. It is God in Christ. So that, as the death of Christ is apprehended, which is involved in Jordan, the believer thinks of the earth. It corresponds with the divine requirements, as God said, "An altar of earth shalt thou make unto me" (Exodus 20:24). Naaman, in desiring this earth, two mules' burden of it, which would be a goodly quantity, would have that whereby he could bear witness in his relations with God to his estimate of himself, and not only so, but to his estimate of Christ as having become Man.
When we come to approaching God, which enters into this passage, we are reminded of what we were, but also of what man is in Christ; for there could be no altar, there could be nothing whereby we could approach God, apart from the fact that the Lord became a man, and took His place as a man on our side.
P.D.S. You would say that the altar of earth really brought before us the Lord as having come as
a man down here, and constituting in that way an order of approach to God, which could only find in Him a channel and an object.
J.T. That is so. There could be no altar at all, otherwise. In Exodus 20 the altar of earth is imperative. The altar of stone is not said to be imperative, it is "if" -- "If thou make me an altar of stone".
W.J.Y. Do you think, in taking this earth from where Elisha was, that it would be a link between himself and Elisha?
J.T. I think that helps. I have no doubt that the New Translation conveys the sense, it is "This earth". That is, the earth on which he stood.
J.A.B. Would it not preserve him from any greatness in himself in the future?
J.H. Would it not also be a link between him and the little maid?
J.T. I think it would link up Elisha, the little maid, and Naaman. They would be bound up in this altar of earth.
G.A.v.S. How did Naaman know about that altar of earth? He would not know the Scripture, would he?
J.T. That only shows that the light present is the result of the gospel; we have here only a type, we have to connect it with the New Testament, that the gospel conveys light to my soul. It is the light of God, and raises questions as to what is suitable to God.
G.A.v.S. It awakens a spiritual instinct.
J.D.U. God comes out without any reserve whatever in all the fulness of His grace, and produces the desire to respond.
J.T. I think it is very beautiful to see here the evidence of right instincts in a soul that is newly brought to God. He considers for God, and what is suitable. Where these instincts exist, fellowship
becomes an extremely simple matter. But where they do not exist, then we are compelled to wait.
J.A.B. How wisely Elisha seemed to foster the impressions that Naaman got; you see in Elisha everything that would make for development. Is that not what you have been pressing in these meetings, that there should be a condition amongst us that represents Christ?
A.H.C. Gehazi, as a servant of Elisha, was out of touch with these three who had so much in common. What would that speak to us of today?
J.T. He goes right against the feature of the truth that had been emphasised, and that always brings in, or leads to, the will of the flesh. Satan working through the will of the flesh will always oppose what is specially emphasised, and Elisha had emphasised in his replies to Naaman that he would take nothing from him. That meant something. Now Gehazi ignores it, and goes straight against it, and in doing so, he lies; but the most serious part of it is that he misrepresents Elisha. Our fellowship is intended to represent God, to represent Christ, so that one can easily see how the precious thought was marred, that Naaman had received into his soul of Elisha. He would be glad to give what was asked, but then the obvious impression left on him would be that Elisha had changed his mind -- that he was changeable.
P.D.S. Would you say Gehazi did not know what it was to stand before Jehovah?
A.J.L. Would that be the enemy seeking to destroy the fellowship?
J.T. Exactly. It marred the whole circumstance in the mind of Naaman. The whole position was beclouded, showing how any one of us, through allowing lust, or desire, or pride, may mar the whole
position, because it is a question of partnership, and what one does, involves all.
G.A.v.S. The fellowship depends upon the recognition of Jesus Christ -- the same yesterday, today, and for ever.
W.J.Y. The fellowship involves the knowledge of God.
J.T. Yes. It is in the light, as God is in the light.
R.G.D. Did Ananias and Sapphira mar the fellowship?
J.N.B. I suppose we have another example in Peter's mistake at Antioch. It was very damaging to others.
A.H.C. Would you say that in the fellowship we are so enriched that we are able to ignore any other offers that come in?
J.T. At this stage in the history of a believer you do not wish him to expect that he has to pay for anything -- that things are on the principle of reward. At this stage everything is from God. It is gift on the principle of faith; it is the reign of grace.
J.H. Why do you say, "at this stage"?
J.T. Because we are dealing here with the young believer. He has not even begun to worship yet. You are not going to take from him at this stage.
J.A.B. Gehazi seemed to demand a recognition of persons.
J.T. You see what he brings in, "from mount Ephraim two young men of the sons of the prophets"! He is on the line of the flesh, the first-born, Ephraim. He had already been rejected. God had chosen Judah and mount Zion. Gehazi is thinking of mount Ephraim. It is always so; the flesh always run on those lines.
W.J.Y. Every spiritual instinct rebels against the
thought of connecting gain with the grace of God.
J.T. Simon Magus thought he could purchase the Spirit with money! It is most important that a young believer should understand that divine things are on the principle of pure grace.
H.W. Would Gehazi represent an official line developing among the saints?
J.T. I am sure he does -- those who regard gain as the end of godliness.
G.H.McK. Would you say that it was a very wrong impression to give Naaman that Elisha had changed his mind?
J.T. I am sure it was; it was a complete misrepresentation. There is no change in the dispensation. We want to keep clear, as our brother said, that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8).
Now when we come to chapter 6, we have another side of the truth, and that is the question of expansion. The desire for expansion is right, but is very likely to be taken up by us on the line of the flesh, or fleshly energy. "Behold now" (the sons of the prophets say) "the place where we dwell before thee is too straight for us".
Ques. It is all a question of what prompts the desire?
J.T. I think expansion is a right thought, but if it takes the form of big meetings, or increased numbers, then we are on dangerous lines.
W.J.Y. That is, if we are working for these things?
J.T. Yes, you are delighted if they come on the lines indicated in this chapter. That is, if they come on the principle of life out of death. The great truth that comes out is in the iron being made to swim. That is to say, the demonstration of the Son of God. He is "declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection
from the dead" (Romans 1:4). Expansion must be on those lines in that connection.
J.A.B. The thought of expansion seems to be given expression to first by the sons of the prophets in company. Do you think the one who desired that E]isha should go with them, suggests a man really taking it up in exercise?
J.T. I think so. The sons of the prophets here are more in accord with the truth than we have yet seen them, but there was still adjustment needed.
A.H.C. You said the other evening, in regard to the sons of the prophets, that they borrowed things, and that there was that characteristic today.
J.T. I think that borrowing is a very common practice, spiritually, at the present time. We take up what others have said and use it without, as it were, going through Jordan with it. You see, Elisha gives us a lead in this book, he goes all the way with Elijah -- all the way over Jordan. The sons of the prophets did not go that way, and this is the exposure of it. You may preach a good sermon, and the Lord may bless it even -- for they were cutting down trees -- they were actually doing it -- but presently something will happen, and it will come to light that you have been working with a borrowed tool, and that is a humiliating thing.
G.A.v.S. To adopt even the spiritual idea without a spiritual soil for its development must stunt the soul without in any way enlarging or causing expansion of spiritual perceptions.
J.T. Yes. It is not that ministry is in any way to be despised, because it is given of God. I think that John's gospel gives us the idea of ministry now. It is of great importance for all who seek to serve, to study John's gospel from the levitical standpoint, and then study Mark from the same standpoint. Now John gives you the idea of ministry at the outset. John the baptist looks on Jesus as He walked, and
he says, "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29). John stood -- he was impressed with the walk of Christ, and he expressed his impression, and it says two of his disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. That is to say, they came into the line of Elisha. They followed Jesus; that is the lead that Elisha gives in this book, he clings to Elijah. Now those two go right through in the following of Jesus, and, necessarily, have to come to Jordan. So that ministry, therefore, is of immense value, but it simply directs you to Christ. It is a suggestion of Christ, but in order to come into it, and get something yourself, you have to follow Jesus.
G.A.v.S. And you would say that the people of God are expected individually to pursue the same journey in the history of their souls, and to come to that point of Jordan, before they get in any way the appropriation of things in their own souls; then they would be able to unfold things in a more living way?
J.T. That is so. You may take up some line of thought, but you have gone through the thing, and it is effective in you; unless you do that (and it is well for young brothers to take note of this) sooner or later it will come to light that you are using borrowed tools, and it will be exposed.
E.H. Do you suggest that the borrowed tools are connected with Laodicea?
J.T. Very much. I think that all her riches, in which she boasts, are really borrowed.
W.J.Y. You would not limit the thought of borrowing to that of a brother who had borrowed a thought from another one. I suppose if he got the thought from the Scriptures, but did not get it into his heart, it would still be borrowed.
A.L.M. What did you mean when you were speaking of our using what we have received through ministry without taking it through Jordan?
J.T. One has to learn the way things come.
God's way is that everything comes to us through Jordan. Everything comes out of death.
J.D.U. I suppose if the heart is really attached to the Lord, as Elisha's was to Elijah, every bit of ministry we get we would gladly take to Him and review it in His presence, and let it have its full weight with us.
J.T. "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (2 Corinthians 10:4). They are tested by death. Everything that does not swim is borrowed, so to speak. The word here is 'iron', meaning it is something that sinks. So that the power of resurrection is apparent in its swimming.
Ques. The inherent power of life was in the stick cast into the waters?
R.G.D. Does it bring in the abolition of death, and that life and immortality have been brought to light through the gospel?
J.T. I think it does. 2 Timothy enlarges upon life.
J.A.B. There was a very gracious help afforded to this one. There must have been real desire with him.
J.T. They have advanced. They are living before the prophet now, and the prophet goes with them. Notice, he does not suggest it; because God will allow you to take your own initiative. He knows what you mean -- you mean well, doubtless -- but there is something that has to be exposed, and therefore, He says nothing, but goes on to expose you, because that is a service. It is the best service that can be rendered to me that I should be exposed. If we are to be effective, we have got to understand life out of death.
R.G.D. Would you say a word about the stick cast into Jordan?
J.T. I think it is just a reference to the Lord Jesus. We are dealing with types, but they are wonderfully suggestive. We are dealing with the
death of Christ now in its bearing on levitical work. It is not a question of salvation -- that is chapter 5 -- but a question of levitical service. If you have been saved by the power of the life of Christ, your levitical service must be in that same power, or not at all. You cannot stand up and preach, and say that it is all done, and propose something on that principle, and yet carry on in service under another principle. And yet that is being done. Men are relying on their own ability and the culture of this world for efficiency in the service of God. This chapter is to rebuke all that. It is to show us that the power for service must come out of death. It is on the principle of life out of death. That is the appreciation of the Son of God declared to be such by resurrection from among the dead.
A.H.C. Would you say that, typically, Elisha had come from a heavenly position, conscious of that position, and it is in the power of that that he is able to carry on his service?
J.T. It is the power of life out of death.
J.D.U. This exposure we naturally shrink from, but where the Spirit of God is operative with us, I suppose we are really glad to have anything that is not in keeping with God's thoughts exposed.
J.T. Quite. In some of us the need of it may be more apparent, but I doubt whether any of us is free from it. The Lord is concerned in a special way about those who serve. We see what pains He took with Peter, so that he might be an efficient servant.
R.G.D. What would you say is the teaching of the Spirit in the remaining part of the chapter?
J.T. What comes out is, that there is power to discern the workings of this world; that which is opposed to the truth. We are progressing here, you see. If you arrive at the power of God in the Son of God raised from the dead, there is spiritual discernment. So that the world is exposed to us. As Paul says, "We are not ignorant of his thoughts" (2 Corinthians 2:11) -- a
remarkable thing that he could say he was not ignorant of the thoughts of Satan. What an immense advantage that was, and what an advantage it is in service (because we are constantly opposed by Satan) to have insight into his very thoughts!
J.D.U. Then comes the consciousness that we have One that is greater with us.
J.T. Yes, that is what comes out. There are two "alas's" in this chapter, the first in regard to the borrowed instrument, and the second in regard to the Syrian host, but they only suggest our unbelief, and now it comes out that "Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world" (1 John 4:4). So that the young man has his eyes opened, and he sees the chariots of God all round about him, for "The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him" (Psalm 34:7), and therefore, our service is carried on in peace, in conscious victory and security.
W.J.Y. Does the first instance suggest what we discern in ourselves, and the latter one, what we learn as to what is outside ourselves? First, the spirit of the world, and then the power of the enemy?
J.T. Yes, and then you have the conditions for the great features of the dispensation to shine out. For that is a great thing with God, that the dispensation should not be misrepresented. He works with us so that we should be in accord with the working of the dispensation, so that instead of all these Syrians being smitten with the sword, they receive bread and water. This is the triumph of grace -- the triumph of good over evil. "So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel".
J.A.B. This smiting them with blindness was an act of mercy, was it not?
J.T. It was, indeed. One is conscious in oneself how easily one misrepresents the dispensation, whereas God is jealously guarding it that it might shine out as it did in the beginning. It is a day that God
has made. There is very much that provokes us to misrepresent things if we are not on our guard.
Ques. Would you say the king of Israel is on the same line as Gehazi in chapter 5?
J.T. Just so, and I think these bands of the Syrians invading Israel may have some counterpart in all partisan movements. These partisan movements amongst the people of God are opposed to the truth. Partisanship is met and dissolved by the spirit of grace.
W.J.Y. In the beginning of chapter 5 grace shines out for one man, and now grace goes out to a large company.
J.T. It is an immense thing if we have grace enough to dissolve a band -- overpowering it with good. Here it is overpowering evil with good, so that there is a dissolution of the band. What changed men they were, as they went back to their master!
J.D.U. You do not meet these troubles by regulations and prohibitions, but by the manifestations of grace?
J.A.B. God seems to meet the position when Gehazi fails. Elisha has a young man as a servant. Does it suggest the thought of continuity and education in these things, so that what is of God is maintained here in power?
J.T. Quite. You stress the thought of the young man. This section of the word, I think, has that young man in view.
1 Corinthians 11; Matthew 26:6 - 13; Ezekiel 43:1 - 6
J.T. As it is the first day of the week, it occurred to me that it was due to the Lord that we should be occupied with the assembly.
My thought is that we may see it, as governed by a law; in this chapter in Ezekiel (lower down), he speaks about the law of the house upon the top of the mountain. That is the idea of the assembly. The assembly comes out of heaven, and the law that governs it comes out of heaven. It is set up on the top of the mountain, and what comes out, I think, in the law of the house -- which may be taken to be 1 Corinthians -- is that the activities which should mark it are those of fully developed men, men -- not children. In Ezekiel, where we have more minute detail given of the house of God than in any other part of Scripture, the idea of a man runs throughout -- indeed, the book contemplates the Son of man. The term, Son of man, is perhaps found in Ezekiel more frequently than in all the other books of the Bible combined, and the thought links up with the house. "The man", he says, "stood by me". The assembly, therefore, is not to be marked by undeveloped activities -- it is the intelligence of the man, the affections of the man. Every stage of spiritual growth, of course, is recognised there -- but it is to be characterised by men, so that it says, "in your minds be grown men". And for that reason I suggested the earlier part of 1 Corinthians 11 in connection with the passage in Matthew, because it gives man his place as the representative of God. The anointing in Matthew is the fullest recognition of this. Matthew and Mark record for us the action of this woman, and the Lord directs that what she did was to be mentioned
as a memorial of her wherever the gospel would be preached. He says nothing in these two gospels about the memorial of Himself. It is the woman who is to be remembered, because unless there is the memorial of the woman, I doubt if there will be the conditions for the memorial of Christ; so that He says nothing about remembering Himself in regard to His Supper in Matthew and Mark, but He does say that the woman is to be remembered, and I think it is because of the place she gives Him. If her memorial is rightly apprehended I think the conditions will exist for the memorial of Christ, which Luke mentions.
R.G.D. In the woman's anointing of Him, is there a giving place to the counsels of God, on the line of intelligence?
J.T. I think in Matthew it would recognise the government of God -- that Man to her represented government. She would not look elsewhere for regulation. In Mark, I suppose the anointing represents what is levitical.
J.A.B. Is the thought in your mind that in the three scriptures read there is progressive development in our apprehension of what there is in the assembly?
J.T. Well, I thought the passage in Matthew fits in with the early part of 1 Corinthians 11, because it shows how the woman took her place, and not only took her place in relation to the man, but recognised by anointing His head, that at least He was her ideal; she would recognise Him, she would have a sign of authority on her head henceforth.
A.H.C. Does she represent the assembly in that way?
J.T. I think she represents what should mark the assembly, that is, subjection to Christ. The assembly is subject to Christ.
W.J.Y. Is it that the conditions of the assembly
must be according to God before we can have a memorial of Himself?
J.T. That is exactly what I thought, and so the anointing in Matthew fits in with 1 Corinthians. It would save believers from turning to any other authority than Christ for their regulation.
A.H.C. Is it the recognition of Christ as being the head of the assembly?
J.T. Yes. The woman in anointing the Lord, I think, avows her entire recognition of where authority is, and so the early part of chapter 11 prepares for the assembly. It gives man his place. The order is from God to Christ, and from Christ to man, and from man to woman.
J.D.U. So that the whole principle of subjection would come in there, not just in connection with what we would speak of as to the sisters.
J.T. I think the whole principle of subjection in the assembly is involved, but it begins with the women. There is to be a sign of it because Corinthians deals with what is orderly and comely, and the sign brings into evidence the place that man has. It is in the assembly that God's idea of man is to shine, the idea of the assembly really involves intelligence.
J.D.U. You were speaking of full development. I was thinking it is in that way that subjection comes in on our part.
J.T. The great principle of the divine idea in man is worked out family-wise. The exercises on the household side lead to material for the assembly, so that man merges into the assembly from his house; his place is recognised according to God.
R.G.D. It says in 1 Corinthians 10:15 "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say". Is that connected with order?
J.T. Yes. "I speak as to intelligent persons", is the strict interpretation, and bears out what we are
saying, that God is aiming at intelligence in the assembly.
W.J.Y. Do you suggest that the conditions of our households have an application to the law of the house of God?
J.T. I do, and you cannot have divine order in the assembly unless it first exists in the households; hence the selection of elders is contingent on the condition of the households. I do not say that it is a question in 1 Corinthians 11 exclusively of husband and wife, because it is not. It is man and woman, because God would educate the saints into His own idea in the man and the woman, so that it should shine in the assembly. Hence it is not only married sisters, but all sisters, all women as in relation to men, whoever the men may be; because when we come to the assembly, it is no longer a question of husband and wife, but man and woman; hence it is not 'Let your wives be silent', but "Let your women be silent".
J.A.B. So that before you have that which is the expression of our appreciation of Christ, you must have that which manifests our subjection to Him as Head?
J.T. Yes, and the memorial of this woman ever present would involve that, so that wherever the gospel is preached, it is to be mentioned. The preaching of the gospel would gather out souls, and the assembly is formed historically by the preaching of the gospel; and as the gospel is preached, this that the woman did is mentioned, so that those who are gathered should be rightly regulated. It would save them from looking to any other authority than Christ, or taking any other pattern than that woman, and as she is recognised, there are conditions for the memorial of Christ; that is, His Supper.
J.A.B. Is that suggested when Paul gives it to them; he says, "I received from the Lord", and then
he speaks of the Lord Jesus. There is a recognition of His authority and His place as Lord, and then there is that which touches our hearts in connection with the love of the Lord Jesus.
J.T. Quite. "Lord Jesus", I think, is a term of affectionate respect, but it is a great thing to have a model, and I think the woman is a model for us. The memorial is to keep in view what she did; you will notice it speaks of "what this woman has done", so that it is what every woman, and indeed, in effect, what every Christian should do.
A.H.C. The woman, apparently, had great intelligence, because it was in regard to His burial that she did it. If we had the sense of the death of Christ, and all that it meant, it would mean that a sweet savour would go up from the hearts of His people.
Ques. Does the memorial represent the truth of headship?
J.T. I think that it leads to that. Anointing Him on the head, I think, means that He was qualified, from her point of view, as indeed He had been from God's, for the office. All government must come from Him.
J.A.B. You said that the assembly was produced by the preaching of the gospel. As we have responded to that testimony, are there certain exercises of soul before we reach the woman as a model?
J.T. No doubt, but we are soon confronted with the idea of government, that we are not so many units. We are to be regulated by a law -- and the "Law-Giver". "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be" (Genesis 49:10). We are confronted with the necessity of rule in the kingdom, and then in the assembly, and we are to look to Christ for that rule, for the directions; so that the apostle here praises them,
because they kept his directions, and he adds further directions in regard to the woman; but when it comes to the assembly, the actual convening, he could not praise them, and I have no doubt it was largely on account of the state of the households; because if parties, or coteries, exist amongst the saints, it is, you may be sure, the outcome of certain family conditions, where subjection is not present.
W.J.Y. There was a time, I think, when we regarded our households and what we may call our private lives, as something quite distinct from the assembly; that is, as having very little relationship to it.
J.T. But the Lord has greatly helped us in the way the believer's household has come into evidence, and how it contributes to the assembly, so that you see here that they had kept his directions; but he would add more directions, and what he adds has reference to the order of God in regard to the man and the woman, and this is before he goes on to the assembly.
J.A.B. Would you say that what is characteristic of the day in which we live is insubjection and lawlessness in these relations that have been established by God?
J.T. I think it is very important to take account of that. It is a noticeable fact, historically, that the truth of the assembly made little or no progress in the East, in Asia, in places that observed, or practised polygamy. It develops where there are household conditions according to what was at the beginning, as the Lord says, "From the beginning it was not so". That is, in the assembly we come back to the primary thoughts of God. There is deliverance from all that has intervened, and this chapter contemplates the relation in which, in the creation, God set the man and the woman. Now that Christ has come in, He is there mediatorially. The idea of man's headship is
known, and carried out because of Christ having come in as the Head of every man, so that every man learns the divine thought in headship from Christ, and hence it flows out in his relationships on earth.
I have no doubt that the conditions that he refers to, in which parties were in evidence -- eating before others, rich and poor distinguished, etc. -- were largely attributable to the deranged household conditions, so that the entry of the gospel into Europe is connected with the households. We do not get the assembly spoken of at Philippi (Acts 16); of course it was there, but what is emphasised is households.
R.G.D. And yet, when we are in the assembly, family relationships are not recognised, are they? They give place to the spiritual.
J.T. As we enter the threshold of the assembly, family relationships drop. But we are adjusted family-wise before we enter.
J.A.B. It is very important to have the right conditions existing. "Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat". That would take account of the exercises in connection with the conditions outside.
H.C. Do you make a distinction between the authority of the Lord and the recognition of the Head?
J.T. Yes, I do. It does not say here that the Lord is Head of every man. The Head of every man is Christ. It is a question really of intelligence, more than of the kingdom. Headship is more that you get direction, and one can understand how this principle has come into evidence, in its perfection, in Christ. You see, now that Christ has come in, you have the idea set out perfectly, the idea of getting direction from the Head. But there can be no such thing as that, without subjection.
H.C. You must recognise Him as Lord before you can recognise Him as Head.
J.D.U. And, being perfect, there is nothing arbitrary or harsh about the position He takes up, is there? One feels that in connection with our own exercises as heads of families, in the households, how much we need to take our lead from our Head.
J.T. That only brings into evidence the place that Christ has now in this divine order in creation. In Eden, of course, it was that the head of every man was God, so to say; Christ was not there, but now Christ has come in, so that the divine idea is fully expressed, and hence every man has to learn that from Christ; and, therefore, order is complete. He maintains in his house what he has learned from Christ.
J.D.U. Many of us are feeling it a very great exercise on that line, in connection with growing families, how necessary it is to rightly exercise the control that should be evidenced in headship.
W.J.Y. I suppose your thought is that we cannot approach assembly privilege, and disregard these evident laws that God has appointed?
J.T. It would surely be a poor thing if the assembly came short of the order in creation. There should be an advance on the order of creation. We must have first settled the order of creation before we reach the assembly, in which the all-various wisdom of God is to be displayed. We must leave nothing behind us unsettled, hence the order of creation should be seen in all family relationships, and that is what God is looking for. He is looking for His order to take form in His people here on earth, so that we approach the assembly on that line, and the assembly takes form under the eye of Christ in comeliness. One has been struck by the references to hair in the Song of Songs. How the bridegroom speaks of the hair of the bride, because it has reference to what is distinctly feminine. It has reference to what is wrought out subjectively in the way of affection and order. The hair is said to
be like a "flock of goats, on the slopes of mount Gilead" (Song of Songs 4:1), and again it speaks about the ringlets by which the king is held (Song of Songs 7:5), referring spiritually to the feminine attractiveness of the assembly, as it is formed according to Christ. So that the order of creation must first be respected, and then we approach the assembly.
W.J.Y. So that a feature of Christianity is that that which was orderly in creation has been recovered.
J.T. That is right, so that in Genesis 4 we have the dominance of the woman. The children were named by Eve. It is a chapter of disaster really, but when we come to Seth, we have recovery, because he calls the name of his son Enosh -- he respected the actual judgment of God on man, and then it says, "began men to call upon the name of the Lord". Light had broken in, and then we have God reverting to His primary thought. "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man ... male and female created he them ... and called their name Adam" (Genesis 5:1,2). There you have recovery, and then Adam begets a son, in his own likeness, after his own image, so that for the continuance of the testimony of God, there has to be the recognition of the departure and the recovery. You begin over again, and that shines out in our houses, so that the children continue. Seth was after Adam's own image and likeness.
H.W. Recovery is connected with the recognition of headship?
J.A.B. The scripture you read in Ezekiel would show the results, the privileges, when God's order is maintained.
J.T. That is what I was thinking. There are conditions now with which God can identify Himself, and I think that chapters 11, 12, 13 and 14 of this
epistle (1 Corinthians), correspond with Ezekiel. God comes in from the east gate, from the east.
A.H.C. That is the point where the light arises.
J.A.B. Do we have the light of the east continually before us? If we take account of the conditions around us, we have to acknowledge ruin and breakdown, but we can take up our privileges in the light of that which is coming in.
J.T. Yes. The reference, I suppose, is to the sun rising, dispelling all darkness and doubt. God is in the light. Now if these conditions, of which we have spoken, exist, we have a memorial of Christ, which brings Him in. "This do in remembrance of me". If the Lord is thus remembered, conditions being suitable, you have a Man by you. Ezekiel says, "A man stood by me". I think that all that follows in the assembly is dependent on Christ. The Man stands by you.
G.H.McK. You mean that the Lord would be revealed to all as a Man at the present time?
J.T. Yes, that is how He comes in. The memorial is of Him in that way, so the part that you take in the assembly, in apprehending Him thus, is not childish. You do not act as a child. The apostle says, in chapter 13, that when he was a child he acted as a child, but when he became a man, he put away childish things. The "Man standing by" rebukes all childish things. They are unsuitable.
W.J.Y. Do you link the thought of the Supper with the light from the east?
J.T. Well, I think that you may. The Supper is not only what Christ is to us, it is what God is in the covenant. I think that the covenant establishes confidence in one's heart, which coincides with the thought of the rising sun. So that there is room for God. The Lord's supper opens up the way for "the
Man" in the memorial, and for God. God is there. It says, "the earth shined with his glory".
G.H.McK. How do you connect the thought of confidence with the rising of the sun?
J.T. It is universal that the whole race of man, from the outset, was accustomed to look in the eastern direction for the rising of the sun. But it is right to connect this with the glory; the glory is the shining out of God in His love, and Ezekiel sees that coming in; the God of Israel comes in, and the earth shines as He comes, and the glory fills the house; but then alongside that, you have the Man standing by you, and I think that it is the sense of Christ as Man in the assembly that enables one to be there.
Ques. Do childish things set forth what is undeveloped?
J.T. I think so. You take these chapters in Ezekiel, from chapter 40 -- they are extremely complex. I doubt whether any of us has followed them fully, and that fact alone ought to warn us not to be too assumptive that we understand everything about the assembly, dividing it up into two compartments, when there may be more. You look at these chapters, and you see what a variety of things there is; the measurements of the cells, and the broad ways, the courts and the gates and the porches, all divinely measured. As you look at these things, you say, 'Well, I know very little of the assembly', and you are dependent, and you are glad to have a Man by you. You see the need of cultivating the senses, so that one should be, as it were, a man in the assembly.
J.A.B. It is very comforting to get the thought that there is One there to support you in these conditions.
J.T. Yes. He stands by Ezekiel right through with a measuring line, so that everything should be known.
W.J.Y. Do you desire to run over chapters 11 to 14 (1 Corinthians)?
J.T. No. I am only suggesting that the thought of a man runs through them, especially in chapter 14. Chapter 13 refers to the child, and points out that when one becomes a man, one puts away childish things, and so he proceeds to what he calls the more excellent way, or the way of surpassing excellence, and the first great thing after this is prophecy. Can you bring in the mind of God? It is an immense thing to be able to suggest something of the mind of God, because that belongs to the assembly. The assembly is where God would reveal His mind.
J.S.B. How are the childish things put away?
J.T. I think you judge them and lay them aside. You see how unbefitting they are; the assembly is the place for the mind of God. Ezekiel says that a voice spoke to him out of the house, and a man stood by him. Now we would expect that in the assembly. If I expect God to speak to me in the assembly, I am prepared for it. I have got my bible, and I can refer to it if reference is made.
W.J.Y. Do you consider that the prophesying in chapter 14 is linked with the same meeting as we speak, as chapter 11?
J.T. I think so. There is only one convening of the assembly. The idea runs through. So that, provided we are prepared for the idea that it is God's assembly, we leave with God what may come about. There are things that we do, as it says, "This is not to eat the Lord's supper". It should have been that they assembled to eat the Lord's supper. They should begin with that, but, having done that, the way is open, for if Christ has come in, God has come in, and, according to Ezekiel, the glory shines. God may speak to us as He did to Ezekiel, and we want to know, because He speaks through someone (God does everything now mediately, and if anyone speaks,
he speaks as the oracles of God), and I want to know this, and my bible is the test. I should have my bible.
W.J.Y. I think there has been a thought that our morning meeting, as we speak, corresponded with the ministry of Aaron and his sons in the holy place; that is, it is an occasion in which the consideration was wholly God-ward, and that God's speaking to us was reserved for other occasions.
J.T. But I think you will find in Exodus that God proposed to speak to the people from the mercy-seat. He said, "There will I speak with thee".
R.G.D. Do you suggest that the wideness of the things connected with the name of God may come before us when we meet together to remember the Lord?
J.T. You see we come together as in assembly, according to this chapter, and that is God's assembly; and if it is God's assembly, God must have full rights in it. We cannot prescribe, we must leave it with Him.
R.M.Y. Do you regard God speaking to us as being greater than worship?
J.T. I do. It must be. It must be a greater thing for God to speak than for you to speak.
C.B. Would you say that all speaking to the saints in the assembly should be the giving forth of the mind of God?
J.T. I think if anyone speak, he should speak representatively; of course, there is what we may call conversational ministry, such as readings, but the general principle of ministry is authoritative. "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God". It is not that he is immune from judgment, because the others are to judge, as it says, "let the others judge"; but from his point of view, he is speaking as the oracles of God, and his thought is to bring in the mind of God, and to edify the assembly.
J.A.B. Would it have a specific character at such a time?
J.T. I think where there is worship that you should be very careful. He says, "This is ... the place of the soles of my feet". That is to say, God Himself is there, in nearness, as we see in Genesis 35, where He speaks to Jacob. If one speaks in those circumstances, God is very near to him. He is very near to all, so that in these circumstances it is not merely a question of teaching, or exhortation, but the word, fresh for the moment.
J.A.B. It would not be the occasion for what we might have in our reading meeting, or even in an "open" meeting?
J.T. No. Ezekiel says here he heard one speaking to him out of the house. He was in the house. I think that is the kind of speaking. "I heard one speaking unto me out of the house".
G.H.McK. Would such ministry take account of the needs of the saints?
J.T. God would take account of their needs, and that is what I mean in seeking to emphasise that it is God's assembly, and He takes account of what exists. If saints are worldly, you may depend the word will have something to say to them.
We cannot ignore the state of the saints. There is no use in having a theoretic condition. The saints are the house, you know; it is a question of the state of the saints. If there are worldly, or low, conditions, then God has to speak accordingly. The question is whether God is there, whether He has actually come in at all -- if there is a low state.
In such conditions, God would speak in another way to you; there would be more distance in it. Here you see, "I heard one speaking unto me out of the house". That is very near, for he was right in the house.
W.J.Y. Do you look on an open meeting as a convening of the assembly?
J.T. Yes. I think 1 Corinthians contemplates that.
W.J.Y. What about a reading meeting?
J.T. Well, a reading meeting is conversational. I would not be sure but that a meeting such as the present makes room for the Lord in a peculiar way. I do not think that I should suggest anything, were it not that I felt it represented the mind of the Lord; and, therefore, in these circumstances, there is a certain reference to authority. In an open meeting, if a brother stands up, it is not conversational; it is as the oracles of God, and thus he is supposed to represent the Lord; and, therefore, it makes it a very serious matter to say anything.
Ques. What of the Spirit in the inner court?
J.T. That indicates what is possible in the Spirit. In our assemblies, if we are equal to it, the Holy Spirit takes us into the most sacred spot. As the hymn says, "The Spirit's power has ope'd the heavenly door". It is a question of the Spirit.
J.D.U. Would it be out of place to ask you to say a word about the cup, and the exercises that there have been recently in regard to one cup?
J.T. There is only one cup in the institution. "In like manner also the cup", as it says. In chapter 12 it says, "We ... have all been given to drink of one Spirit", which I think is an allusion to the cup; so that it should convey the idea of unity.
J.D.U. What do you think, then, of subdividing it at the Supper?
J.T. It is an acknowledgment of weakness, I think. It seems to me as if the Lord might suggest that the cup should regulate the size of the company. In Mark it says that, "all drank out of it"; and the containing vessel, of course, maintains that, because we all do really drink out of the same vessel, only for convenience we use two or more. The Lord had used
a drinking vessel. I think the idea of unity is maintained in one vessel, but if the company were regulated by the size of the cup, or drinking vessel, we should have more assemblies -- more meetings -- and I believe that is what the Lord is aiming at -- the increase of meetings.
J.D.U. In regard to that, the exercise, of course, is as to whether there is the power for such meetings.
J.T. That is the next thing. I believe there is something in that. The idea is that we all drink out of the same vessel, which makes it very familiar; the Lord breathed into the disciples, which is a very familiar action; and drinking out of the one cup involves familiar relationships, and intimacy; and so, if the size of the cup, as we said, was allowed to regulate the size of the meeting, the meetings would increase, and the income of the Lord would increase.
A.J.L. Do you mean more would take part?
J.T. Yes. There would be more exercise, more development of men.
J.D.U. You would not look for fully developed men at first -- elders, I mean?
J.T. We do not need elders until we have the assembly. Elders are not the first thought, they are the second thought. The elders were ordained after the assembly was formed; the question is whether there is material for an assembly. I use the word 'assembly' merely for convenience, but the great thing to begin with is whether for an assembly there are enough saints who love the Lord, and then the question of elders arises. I think it is quite obvious that you do not need a king unless you have a nation to rule, and you do not need elders unless you have an assembly. So the first thing is to get the saints for an assembly. It is wonderful how God provides when we move on right lines; how development takes place.
J.A.B. So, although we are surrounded by broken
conditions, if the order of God is recognised, as under the headship of Christ, we are brought to the fulness of God's thought and the shining of His glory.
J.T. It is a very wonderful possibility in days such as ours, that we may come back to the primary thought of God in the assembly. And what strikes one particularly is the importance of development of manhood; that we should be no longer babes, but men; and, in taking part in the assembly, you do so as intelligent persons, not as children.
Matthew 15:21 - 28; Matthew 8:5 - 13; 2 Kings 13:14 - 21
It occurred to me that a word about faith would serve us at this time, having in view that we are living in the dispensation of faith -- as it is said, "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4). The tendency with us, to speak simply, is to drift from a position taken up by faith into one marked by sight, and thus we may retain only the outward forms accompanying faith and the dispensation of faith, and we come short of their power, for we can only have to say to God by faith. It is said, "he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" and that "without faith it is impossible to please him" (Hebrew 11:6). That is a very sweeping, solemn word. And so, in speaking of faith, what one suggests is not that we have not faith, for I have no such thought. I seek to speak to you as to those who have faith. Indeed, no ministry can be of any value, or have any effect, save as addressed to faith -- save there be faith in the hearers. But then this word of all words admits of degrees of comparison, and what I have particularly in view is to call attention, as I proceed, to that which marks all of us, and that is, failure to go the whole way. The disposition to proceed to half measures is perhaps realised in every one of us, and as it is according to our faith so be it to us, the measure of our faith is the measure of our blessing subjectively -- not objectively; for what God has got for us is not measured by our faith, but by His own love. We can rest in that, and that ultimately He will accomplish in us His purpose is also assured. But things are enjoyed now on the principle
of faith, and, as I said, it is according to our faith so be it to us.
And so I ventured to read these two passages in Matthew, because they speak of "great" faith -- a degree of comparison which doubtless each one here would refrain from appropriating to one's self. We are not living in the time of "great" faith, but it is well to have a standard, because these things are recorded for us so that we might have them in view, that we might have these two personages in our minds as spoken of in this way by the Lord.
The first, the Syro-Phoenician woman, was outside the range of religious privilege in that day, and this very fact brought out, through the Lord's gracious dealings with her, the benefit of the work of God in her soul, showing that the mere enjoyment of outward religious privilege in itself may not conduce to the work of God. For, as the Lord says of the centurion, "Not even in Israel have I found so great faith".
Now in regard to the Syro-Phoenician woman -- a personage well known to most of us, doubtless, as oft presented in the gospel -- all I wanted to say is that her faith enabled her to take account of the circumstances in which the government of God had placed her. The government of God has to say to us. It has to say to every person in the world, and to every nation, but it has to say, particularly, to the people of God, and what we may remark is that we are suffering among other things under the government of God in three distinct connections. Notwithstanding that we have faith, and have come into the benefits of faith, we are outwardly suffering, with all mankind, in three distinct connections. We are suffering, with all mankind, on account of Adam's sin. These may be very simple remarks, but they are practical, and it is well to have them in view, in order that the position may be clear. We are suffering
under the government of God on account of Adam's guilt. All the outward circumstances and consequences of that guilt have come down to us, and it is our wisdom not to look for miracles. Faith accepts these circumstances, whatever they be. Faith accepts our conflicts, and goes through them with God.
And, then, we are suffering on account of the sin of the race in the rebellion against God at Shinar. We are suffering on account of the national situation in the world. We know that God, having sent his angels out to minister on account of the heirs of salvation, is modifying these national conditions; but, nevertheless, they exist, and the national conditions entail suffering. They entail inconvenience and suffering, irritation of all kinds, to men. We pray for the powers that be, because they are mercies, but they cannot set aside these conditions which have come down to us, and we as believers accept them. We do not ally ourselves with any nation; as we understand our calling we are outside of them; but, nevertheless, we are subject to the powers that be, and we are thankful for those powers. But the national conditions into which mankind has been plunged involve suffering.
And then there is that which comes home to us more keenly than all -- the failure of the assembly. After we understand it aright, we understand it entails untold spiritual suffering, as well as other sufferings. The addresses to the assemblies show what an overcomer has to contend with. But an overcomer accepts the conditions humbly, and acknowledges his own share in them. He accepts them from God, and the sufferings entailed. His faith enables him to regard them in the light of the government of God, and he suffers accordingly.
Now this woman in Matthew 15 is a model for us in that respect. That is, she is set down here as one who has great faith, and it is great faith shown in her
being enabled, through the Lord's gracious dealings with her, to accept her position. She accepted the situation created by the government of God, and if we are to be with God, if we are to come in for the latter day gain of the Spirit's administration, we shall have to learn how to accept intelligently our position in the governmental conditions which exist consequent upon the failure of the assembly. It means much. It means ridicule. It means that one has to abandon that which is held in honour in this world religiously. It means self-abnegation. It means the abandonment of pretension. It means the non-claiming of ecclesiastical position. It means acknowledging that all that is forfeited, and that we are cast entirely on the mercy of God at the present time, and that as we humble ourselves before Him, He makes a way for us, and He recognises the greatness of our faith, for it is great to be able to adjust ourselves in regard to the Lord according to the light in which He is presented at the present time.
And then in the case of the centurion, that is a faith which enables us to say that, notwithstanding these conditions, the Lord Jesus is in heaven, and He is as "a man under authority". That is, He has received from the Father the administration of everything. The centurion says, "I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof". I think that could be rightly said of every one of us religiously. As we take conditions into account, as we take our own actual conditions and circumstances religiously into account, it seems to me that this word fits. We are not "worthy". But then, in acknowledging our own unworthiness -- and how meet it is that we should -- we say that He has power in heaven and upon earth, and that He does not need to come. He proposes to come, but He does not need to come. All He has to do is to say the word.
Now there is immense light in that for our souls,
dear brethren. As one reviews the field in which the Lord is operating, and as one considers the awful history of that to which His Name is attached, how comforting that He has only to say the word. One often thinks of Asia, and its millions, comprising half the population of the world. One is comforted in the thought that the Lord only has to say a word of blessing for them, and He will, for their day is coming. And as one thinks of the Christianised world, and what has come about in it, conditions wholly unfit for the Lord, unfit notwithstanding that His name is called upon them, how comforting to know that He can say the word. As we think of our brethren who are in these associations which are wholly out of keeping with the Lord's name -- names, indeed taken other than His, unfaithfulness thus acknowledged -- how comforting that He can say the word. The results are according to our faith. If we are concerned about our brethren the Lord can say the word. He is under authority. That is to say, He is a Mediator in the exercise of divine authority, and He can say the word. How great, therefore, is the range opened up to us! If we are concerned about our brethren, we can intercede with Him. He says to the centurion, "Go, and as thou hast believed, be it to thee". "And his servant was healed". It is according to your faith. It is a faith position, and faith induces prayer. These two things go together. We see universal authority in the Lord, and that He need not come. He can simply speak, and effect deliverance by speaking. And so the centurion s servant is healed, as the centurion believed. "As thou hast believed". He was healed from that hour. Would that the Lord would lay it upon us to think of the many there are throughout Christendom! The Lord knows those that are His, and, although the conditions are such that He cannot come, He can speak the word, and healing comes about, deliverance
comes about. And so the Lord says here, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel". He signalises these two events, and I mention them as standards for us. He signalises them as "great". The faith was "great". In the first instance he speaks of it feelingly. He says, "O woman, great is thy faith".
I wanted to enlarge on these two or three thoughts in 2 Kings 13, because I find it is the Lord's way to use the Old Testament for the elucidation in detail of what is stated in the New Testament. The Old is Scripture as much as the New. It has the same authority. It was written in view of the New; the New now being in our hands comes first, so that the believer brings out of his treasures things new and old. I hope you see in this passage that the whole thing shines by its very age. Its very age enhances its beauty, for it is but a picture of what I am saying, only in a collective sense. In this passage you see how great results are missed because of our resorting to half measures instead of whole measures. Instead of great faith you have little faith. Instead of great consequences you have little consequences -- consequences of great value, surely, but not such as are available, and we want all that is available.
Now the king of Israel comes down to Elisha, and what you observe is that, although his reign, as the context shows, was other than according to God's mind, yet grace was available. This picture is to impress us with the reign of grace, and how it overrules and overrides even our crookedness and unfaithfulness, and asserts itself, because God ever holds to the principle of the dispensation. The Christ is still on the Father's throne, and grace still rules, and God maintains throughout the principle of the dispensation.
And so the king of Israel weeps upon the prophet's face. There was some respect for Elisha. And then he says, "My father! my father! the chariot of Israel
and the horsemen thereof". How poorly this fine expression sits on the lips of this unbelieving king, but nevertheless, it was a fine expression. It was an expression first used by Elisha. It was an expression which entered into the dispensation, and characterised it. And God loves to have us go back to the beginning. We are now in a time of the most abject weakness. Elisha is sick of the sickness whereof he died. What a dark day! What a prospect! But he had not died. I have no doubt his sickness may be taken as a suggestion of the weakness that marks our own time. Let us accept it. We are living in a day of extremely small things -- outward weakness -- but Elisha still lives, and the reminder of his early ejaculation as he saw Elijah ascend brings out the latent strength that is there, and that is what I want to impress upon us, that there is latent strength. The Holy Spirit is still here. That does not mean that we can count on Pentecostal days, because the Holy Spirit is necessarily limited on account of the state of the vessel. You understand that I am not speaking of the Person of the Spirit of God, for He is God Himself; but the state of the vessel is so extremely paralysed and weak that the operations of the Spirit are necessarily limited; but, nevertheless, the blessed Spirit of God remains, and everything now hinges on our faith.
And so as King Joash says, "My father! my father! the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof", Elisha says, "Take bow and arrows". It is through you that the power of these horsemen and the chariot is to be expressed. I take it to myself. If I speak of the Spirit, if I speak of Pentecost, and of the power of God that shone there, I take it to myself. It is for each of us to say to himself, "This power is to be exercised through me". It is thus we come into the power of God. And so the prophet says, "Take bow and arrows", these being the symbols in
that day of the chariots of Israel -- of the power of the chariots of Israel and the horsemen. He says, "Open the window", and "shoot". "Open the window eastward". What light enters into the soul as one contemplates what the east denotes! How one can look away from the dark history of the public assembly, and think of the coming of the Lord! What hope fills the breast as one thinks of the past coming of the Lord. As John says, "We know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding" (1 John 5:20). But then He is coming. As the sun rises in the east, with all its benign power, dispelling the mists of darkness in this world, so Jesus shall arise, and faith knows it. And so as one looks toward the east, opens a window and shoots, one's arm is empowered by the sense of the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. For how can one pull the bow and let the arrow fly, except in that power? It stimulates us as we think of it. The king shot.
I want now to come to what is very searching, because whilst he shot that one arrow towards the east, the prophet's hands steadied him. It was not then a question of the king's power, because he had not any. It was a question of the power of Elisha, weak though he was in the sickness whereof he died. But there was power there. The apostle Paul realised that power as no one else -- "since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3) -- and moreover he preached the gospel by that power, by the power of Christ speaking in Him. From Jerusalem and round about Illyricum he preached it fully. He realised it more than anyone. Now we have come to a day of weakness. We cannot look for Pauline strength. What we can hope for now in humility is the hands of Elisha in his sickness. I hope that you will be able, spiritually, to understand that it refers not to the weakness of Christ, but to the weakness of the vessel. It refers to the limited conditions that
mark the people of God. But, nevertheless, the power is there. That one shot towards the east was by the power of Elisha. As one might say, the coming of the dawn, and the sense for the moment of the support of Christ, notwithstanding the weakness of the vessel, enabled him to shoot, and he shot. If anyone here is aspiring to serve the Lord, this is a most valuable lesson. You begin with the power of Pentecost and accept the weakness of the present time, and you see that you are dependent on the support of the Lord.
But now he says, "Smite upon the ground". We now come, as I said, to what is searching. This smiting of the ground is another matter. From the use of the word 'ground' in Scripture, there cannot be a doubt but that it refers to one's own self. One has to learn to disallow the flesh, and that the flesh profits nothing. It was as though Elisha said, 'The next shooting is to be in your own strength'. You have to learn to shoot in your own strength, and how can I shoot, that is, exercise the power of God, unless I disallow the flesh? For God will not use the flesh; however cultured, however acceptable it may appear to men, God will not use it. And so the king smites thrice -- half measures. The thing is to go all the way, and disregard the flesh in toto. Elisha began thus. Elijah went up, and the mantle of Elijah fell from him and Elisha took it. He had rent his own garments in two pieces, and he crossed the Jordan by the power of Elijah's mantle. He disallowed the flesh from the very outset, and hence the wonderful ministry of Elisha, the wonderful grace and miracles that flowed in his strength. And so the king smites but thrice, and the prophet was wroth with him. You say, 'Well, he did well', but could he not have done better? There is a good meeting in this district. Could it not be better? Could it not be more spiritual? Can there not be more results from testimony? You say, 'Anyway, he smote thrice instead of twice, or
once', but why not "five or six times", and then a complete victory -- not half measures? If we go the whole length we come to first conditions, in the principle of them. We come back to the Spirit, and in coming back to the Spirit, in the total disregard and setting aside of the flesh, we come into the assembly in all its blessedness -- not in the outward power that marked the beginning, but as it was said to Philadelphia, "Thou hast a little strength" (Revelation 3:8). The Lord does not say, 'I have a little strength'. He has all power. It was what Philadelphia had. How did she get it? By self-judgment, by disallowing the flesh in toto. And so we come into the good of the Spirit, so that there is the thing which the assembly had at the outset, not in quantity surely, but in quality. And so the prophet was wroth. He says, "Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it". This is what God would lay upon us. Not to settle down to half measures, but to go on to the full limit of what is available. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live", (Romans 8:13). We come into the gain of the Spirit in the disallowance, by the Spirit, of the flesh.
I just go on to the burial, because you see the shooting five or six times means we have such power as to overcome the enemy. There would be complete victory. But there was more needed.
The king failed, and now what comes out is that Elisha died, and he was buried. You will observe that it does not tell us where he was buried. It is not here a question of distinction in burial, as in the case of the kings of Israel and Judah. Usually we are told where they were buried. But in the case of Elisha it is not where he was buried, but the fact that he was buried. Now, if there is failure on the side of our responsibility, God comes in. That is, we are brought face to face with the fact that Christ
died, and was buried. It is a question of testimony here. God is now asserting that if we are on the line of half measures, He is not. He began with the death and burial of Christ. The gospel preached to the Corinthians was that "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried" (1 Corinthians 15:3). So that God is now asserting His way. It is a question of testimony, and as we come to see it, we begin to look to God, because on this line God must act. It is not a question of shooting with bow and arrows, but rather a question of burying. I see now that God has His way, and that He must have His way, and that His principle is not only death, but burial. The man has to go completely, so that what we find is that Elisha died, and was buried. That is God's testimony -- death and burial. Can we think for a moment that present conditions in Christendom conform in the least degree with the mind of God? Some of us may be in the mind of God, but take the public thing as it is. In what way does it conform with the mind of God? In no way. God does not give up His line. He began with death and burial, and He continues on that line. I am on that line when I get to burial. It does not say where Elisha was buried, it is just stated as a testimony that he was buried. Let us see what the secret of that is.
"They were burying a man", it says. I have no doubt that that is baptism. "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (Romans 6:3). Many assume that as baptised we can live here in this world, but we are baptised "unto his death", and so "we are buried with him by baptism into death": seeing that burying is involved in death. It is a part of it. These men were in line with God. They were burying a man. I wonder how much we are occupied with this? Instead of dressing ourselves up, and seeking to
commend ourselves to one another and to men, and to put on a good front, the occupation now is burying. It is a burying time. The first burial in Scripture is that of Sarah, and it is in the light of resurrection. Isaac is raised, and Christ is raised figuratively, in Genesis 22, and Sarah is buried in Genesis 23. The first burial is in the light of resurrection, and it is the burial of a believer. The believer buries in the light of resurrection. He does not bury dolefully, but in the light of resurrection, and this particularly applies to our baptism. Baptism is burial, and one raises the question as to how many of us are occupied in this service of burying. "They were burying a man". It is a time of putting ourselves under the water, and not only that, but remaining in accord with that by walking in newness of life. But we have to be buried. They were burying a man, but on account of the Moabites they could not do it. They did not complete their work. I have no doubt but that this refers to the divisions of Christendom. There had been Syrian bands which had been overpowered by Elisha. The Syrian band seeks to invade the land of Canaan. Here is a Moabitish band, and on account of the invasion of the land by this band, they could not bury the man. The work was unfinished.
The divisions of Christendom have really interfered with the burying process. Instead of the burial, you have huge organisations with the name of the Lord Jesus attached to them, and cathedrals, and all the pomp of Babylonish powers and wealth displayed in them -- the very opposite to burial. And so the work was interfered with. It is only as we emerge from these things that we are enabled to begin the work of burying, and I hope the Lord will help us to keep on burying, because it is in keeping, among other things, with the dispensation. Elisha died, and was buried. That is the divine testimony. Christ died and was buried, and if He died vicariously, which He did --
He would not have died otherwise -- we have all to come to that position. Our baptism involves that we are buried, "buried with him by baptism into death". And so the Lord would lay it upon us to bury, and to finish the work.
But what you see here is that, notwithstanding the interference of this Moabitish band that came into the land, the man "went down" (see New Translation). It does not say he was let down. He went down. I apprehend it is what he did himself. Certainly if it applies to baptism, which it surely does, it is for every one of us to see today that whether the band interferes or otherwise, we go down. They cast him into the grave of Elisha. He went down, and touched the bones of the prophet. You see we come down into accord with the mind of God. It says he revived, and stood up on his feet. Now we have come into direct accord with the mind of God, because He will not give up His mind. His principle is death, burial, resurrection. That is His principle, and I believe He is working it out at the present time, and hence the importance of burying, because in burying you place yourself in the hands of God.
I have no doubt that Israel in the future will come up in this way, as having touched Christ in death, and stand upon their feet, as Ezekiel says, "an exceeding great army" (Ezekiel 37:10).
This great principle of life is worthy of our deepest consideration. It is life out of death. I place myself where God can touch me, and he touches me in relation to the death of His Son. So that as the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived, and stood on his feet. This is what God wants. The man is a Colossian saint. He is raised -- he knows that he is raised -- on the principle of faith. We are buried with Him by baptism, we are raised by faith. In the power of God we walk in Christ (Colossians 2:6). We are raised by faith in the power of God, who "raised
him from among the dead", so that the Colossian Christian is a witness of the divine thought. He is standing on his feet, and that is the divine answer to all that there is at the present time. One risen man is a testimony for God. God is leading us to that, and as I said, it is a question of faith. It is a question of placing ourselves, as it were, in relation to the death of Christ unreservedly; burying, and then God comes in. We take the ground of being risen on the principle of faith of the working of God, who "raised him from among the dead", and then we are quickened with Him, which is a present thing. It is not a question of faith, but it is a present thing, by the Spirit.
John 3:1 - 17; John 4:7 - 14; Hosea 12:3 - 6,12,13
J.T. It occurred to me that a consideration of life in its initial features in these chapters would be profitable, and the passage in Hosea serves to illustrate how life develops in the believer. Jacob may be regarded as a type of the Lord Jesus in certain respects, but in others he is a type of the believer, and I think he serves as a type of a believer from the time that a believer is born again, because we see him acting at his birth in the way of supplanting the man born after the flesh. His action in supplanting Esau at that early stage in his history I think corresponds with the initial movements and instincts of one born again -- merely born again. Then later he wrestles with God, and has power, as it is said, over the angel. He wrestled with God. In his strength he wrestled with God. It does not say that in his strength he took hold of his brother by the heel, but when he wrestled with God he had strength. The instinctive sensibilities of one born again, are to displace what is born after the flesh.
W.J.Y. That is what comes out in John 3.
J.T. I think it corresponds with John 3. There is a clear distinction or line of demarcation made between that which is born of the flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit. They are not to be mixed. What is born of the Spirit is necessarily stronger. At the outset it may be a very little, but it is there.
Rem. Would you say one born of the Spirit had life?
J.T. No, I should not say he had life in a scriptural sense. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit"; it does not say it is life. It is of that character. There is the foundation laid in the soul of what John
intends to develop. He intends to develop in us what corresponds with God.
Rem. There is a difference between being born of the Spirit and being sealed with the Spirit?
J.T. A very great difference. The latter is after we believe the gospel. Jacob did not get the Spirit typically until he wrestled with God. Then he had his name changed.
Rem. Further on, in John 3, John the baptist says, "He must increase, but I must decrease". Would you say he had learnt something more of the necessity for the flesh to be displaced?
J.T. Yes. It is a great thing to see that John's point of view here is taken up in relation to God. John has what is for God before him. He presents the Son of God, and the Son of God is concerned about what is for God, so that the foundation laid in our souls has God in view. Not simply our blessing. It should be for God. God is a Spirit, and hence the initial work is spirit. That is the name Scripture gives it. Being spirit, it has instincts, and these instincts work out in the displacement of the flesh.
W.J.Y. So that there is nothing for Him until He moves.
J.T. That is right. It is the sovereign act of God. He is acting with Himself in view.
H.W. New birth is God's sovereign work, but the further development of things in the soul is dependent on the exercises of the believer.
J.T. That is why I thought Jacob would help us, especially the young people. The Old Testament is of such value because it affords illustrations of what we get in the New, so that we have in Jacob the exercise at this very early age. He is already concerned about the displacement of Esau. Jacob's name signified a supplanter. That is what being born of the Spirit will result in.
H.W. Every believer ought to be a supplanter?
J.T. That is the way it begins. It becomes more and more definite and pronounced when there is the displacement of what is born after the flesh, so that any person can tell in himself from this point of view whether he be born again or not. If he is born again, he will have something corresponding with Jacob, because it is presented here as the evidence of spiritual energy.
W.J.Y. You mean he would be conscious of something within himself that moved Godwards?
J.T. That is quite so. It may be only in a very little way, as that you have an interest in the company of the Lord's people, or in reading the Scriptures, or abstaining from earthly things. It may be very little, but a very little will show.
H.W. You do not think of that exactly as life?
J.T. No, because it is very mixed, and very spasmodic, until you get the Spirit. The Spirit coming into a believer sets everything in order, and, as the fourth chapter of John says, it is a well, it is a constant spring, and it springs up. That is the idea of what prevails. The power of the spring is well known. It may take time, but it works its way, so that there is something definite and pure for God. It springs up into everlasting life.
W.W. There is a distinction between being born again, and being born of the Spirit?
J.T. Being born again is that the first birth does not count. It is not of any value. The explanation that the Lord gives of the second makes it more definite. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Then one is born of water, which is a suggestion of purification. Being born of God is a fuller thing. It involves having the Spirit.
H.W. What is the thought lying behind new birth? Is it that you begin afresh, that God has completely set aside the old, and has taken up a new line?
J.T. Yes! God acts sovereignly! The flesh has proved itself untrustworthy, as the previous chapter states. "Many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did but Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus" (chapters 2:23 - 25, 3:1). He is distinct from among all others. The fact that he comes to the Lord shows that God is working in him. God has to work sovereignly now. It reminds me of the chaotic conditions which existed in the first chapter of Genesis. The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the deep. That is, He was waiting to operate. The Spirit is operating now.
W.J.Y. I have sometimes thought that the book of Job illustrates the truth of the third chapter of John. He had to learn that in man naturally, and in all that was said of himself, there was nothing for God. He had to reach that in his soul, and then there is a new beginning for him.
J.T. Just so. God loves to see you develop in a spiritual way, and see that there are great things with Him. The gospel brings to light the great things there are with God. These great things are not going begging -- they are offered to all, but God maintains them in their dignity according to their worth. Hence they are available to those who value them. The actual reception of things for God is by those who value them.
Rem. Is new birth a need created in the soul which can only be met by God?
J.T. Yes, so that in Genesis 1 the first thing God says is, "Let there be light". The soul needs light, and the light brings out what is made available in Christ.
Rem. Unless you are born anew you cannot see the kingdom of God.
J.T. It gives you power to see what God is presenting in the gospel. The Spirit in this operation gives a certain moral power in the soul. Water is cleansing -- moral cleansing. The two things go together -- moral power and moral cleansing. These do not in themselves involve the possession of the Spirit, but in virtue of them you begin to see what great things there are. The gospel discloses what great things God has got for man. Hence you go in for them. That is what Jacob symbolises. In his strength he wrestled with God. I take that to be moral strength. He had gone through much in his soul. He had been to Syria, and had had a great deal of adverse experience, or experience with adverse things, but through all that, he acquired moral power.
H.W. Do you suggest that, in connection with the soul entering into enjoyment of eternal life?
J.T. I think so, but first it is the Spirit. The fourth chapter comes in as the counterpart of the third chapter. The third is from the divine side, and the fourth is the gift. It is still from the divine side, but it is something which is to be in you.
C.S.S. You would say there is a difference between desiring and wrestling?
J.T. Yes, I would. Many have the desire for things, but they do not go in definitely for them. God loves you to go in for things definitely.
C.S.S. The slothful man desireth and hath not.
Rem. Would you say the Syro-Phoenician woman was wrestling?
J.T. Yes, in a way. She was wrestling for her daughter. Jacob is wrestling definitely for something for himself. He says, "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me" (Genesis 32:26), and I doubt whether any of us progress until we arrive at that stage, where we definitely turn to God for blessing. We have to distinguish between that which is inherited
and that which we get. As born again we are born into inheritance. Inherited things will not suffice. There is a definite blessing, and we must go in for it. Jacob secured the inheritance for a mess of meal, but after that there was the blessing that he wanted from his father Isaac. Many are content with the inheritance. I mean what we have inherited through our predecessors, but in addition to that, there is the blessing that Jacob got through his subtlety. He got it definitely, and took it away from Esau. Jacob valued the blessing.
Ques. Would that illustrate eternal life?
J.T. Yes. Eternal life is definitely the blessing of God. One has to get it. Jacob shows you how you get it. He wrestled with God. I am referring now to Genesis 32. The blessing is spoken of in Genesis 32.
W.C. Would you say a man who is born again is responsible to answer to the light?
J.T. Quite. He is prepared now to listen to the gospel, and then he wants to enter into the kingdom. There is more than the kingdom. There is a definite blessing that one gets by turning to God himself.
H.W. In John 4 the woman was told to ask. "Ask of me".
J.T. That is the line. The Lord unfolds that there is the gift.
W.M. "Lay hold of eternal life" (1 Timothy 6:12). Would that apply to what you are saying?
J.T. That is a further thought, but it is all on the same line of energy.
C.S.S. I think it was seen in the case of Timothy. Timothy was a young man.
W.J.Y. I notice in the third chapter of John, that the thought of eternal life, as linked with the journeyings of the children of Israel, was not connected with other than the brazen serpent. That would indicate
they had travelled a good way before they really entered into that.
J.T. That is helpful. It is in the mind of God for us at the outset, but it is brought in in the types when you are prepared for it.
W.J.Y. I suppose at that stage the springing well would indicate that they came under the influence of the Spirit leading them.
J.T. That is very helpful. "Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it" (Numbers 21:17). The great form of weakness among the people of God is on this line. We are not energetic enough. Seeing the wonderful things God has for us, we are not energetic enough in going in for them. Some do, thank God, and through their energy the saints get things, but getting things from others is not getting them yourself, so that Jacob illustrates the believer as going in definitely from the very outset for what is available. First he supplants the man born of the flesh, and then he gets the inheritance. He goes in for that, and then he gets his blessing, so that the man born after the flesh is shut out automatically by the energy of soul of the believer.
C.S.S. Have we not had a false impression in relation to Jacob as a supplanter, taking it up in a human way, and not seeing the divine import?
J.T. I do not think he took it up in a human way when he was born. It may be said, as to the way he took away the blessing from Esau, that it was discreditable to Jacob, although he valued what he got; but, at the outset, when he took his brother by the heel, you cannot say it was the action of mature will. It was instinct. It represents more for us than for him. It was miraculous that a babe of that age should do that. Even before he was born there was energy. It refers to one that is born again, and he has these instincts and these energies. He perhaps could not tell you why, for a babe cannot tell you why, but a babe has instincts and acts on those
instincts, and we gather from what he does that he is born of God.
W.C. When Jacob's thigh was put out, what do we learn from that?
J.T. He was crippled after the flesh. Having the Holy Spirit you are not to allow for the flesh.
W.J.Y. The instinct Jacob had corresponded with the thought of God. "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Romans 9:13).
J.T. That brings out what was in his mind. From the very outset, what is born of the Spirit corresponds with God. It may be very mixed, but still it is there; so that, if a young person finds himself happily with the people of God, that is not the flesh. It is something else.
L.B.B. I suppose one born of the Spirit values that which is of God?
J.T. These instincts are developed. When you come to wrestling with God, it says, "In his strength he wrestled with God". There you have moral power in his soul, meaning that there has been exercise going on. There has been progress in a moral way, not as possessing the Spirit, but in judging one's self and judging the world. You turn to God definitely now. You want power; you have not got enough.
H.W. Is the Spirit given in answer to asking?
J.T. According to chapter 4 it is. Of course it is the gift of God. In the case of Cornelius, the Holy Spirit was given while Peter preached. God knew what He was doing, and the state of soul they were in, and He gave them the Spirit accordingly.
Ques. Would you say the work was first operative in Jacob when he had the vision of the ladder going from earth to heaven?
J.T. The work of God was in Jacob from the very beginning. He "was a plain man". Esau was a man of the field. A mark of a Christian is that he is
not a man of the field, that is of the world. Jacob was a plain man who lived in tents. Abraham dwelt in tents. That brings in the thought of parents -- older ones -- living with younger ones. Jacob obeyed his father and mother, but then you see another thing in Genesis 27. Isaac smells him, and says, "See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed". That is another thing. The Christian has a fruitful smell, a smell of a field which the Lord has blessed. There you see the potentiality of a Christian. The field is to be cultivated. It may yield this crop, or that crop, but the fruitfulness is there. The potentiality of the field is indicated in Isaac's remark. You look at a young Christian, and you say, 'What potentialities!' All these possibilities are contingent on one's laying hold of the thing, laying hold of the mind of God, and going in for it. Isaac asks that corn and wine might sustain him. God not only conveys His mind to you, but he sustains you in the pathway.
Rem. The Lord says, "As the living Father has sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me" (John 6:57). Is not that the means of being sustained?
J.T. Quite. The sixth chapter of John is the food. The third is the mind of God, the fourth the Spirit, the fifth the work and power of Christ. The sixth chapter is the food, sustenance. The seventh is the Spirit going out. You are built up now for the testimony. You are standing on your feet and sustained, and the Holy Spirit comes down for the sake of the testimony. It is a question now of being energetic.
C.S.S. What is the thought of prevailing with the angel?
J.T. First it says, "In his strength he wrestled with God. Yea, he wrestled with the Angel, and prevailed". In the prophet's mind, God was there,
but He was there, representatively, in the angel. It was a man, according to the book of Genesis. It says there that a man wrestled with him.
J.T. It is very remarkable that he was allowed to prevail. I think God encouraged him to overcome. It suggests, I think, how God encourages a young Christian as he attempts to pray and turn to God about things.
C.S.S. Would you say he is one that is especially loved? I mean the overcomer, in the language of the prophet: "Jacob have I loved".
J.T. That is right. We have little idea how delightful it is to God as we insist on getting things from Him.
W.J.Y. Do you think if we allowed these spiritual instincts to prevail within us that development would be much more rapid than it really is?
J.T. I think so. The meetings are relied upon almost entirely, and the home, and what is obtained in the home readings and family worship, whereas these scriptures show that each individual believer has to turn to God himself if he is to come into things definitely. He has to follow the line of Jacob in wrestling with God.
Rem. We get the way in which he prevailed, "He wept and made supplication".
J.T. That is a condition. We do not get that in Genesis, showing that there is more than is recorded in Genesis. And then it says that God found him in Bethel. God found him. That is, your wrestling and energies and supplication and weeping bring you under the notice of God in a special way, and in no less a place than in His house. You really find yourself in the house on this line. It is a reference to Genesis 35.
W.J.Y. I think that question of personal and private exercise is a very searching one today, with
such busy lives as most people lead. We are very apt to depend on the meetings for everything.
J.T. And then we enjoy the written ministry. All these things are provided for us, but they are only really helpful as we have individual intercourse with God, and go in for things definitely.
L.B.B. They are not much use to us unless there is the wrestling?
J.T. It is wrestling that makes you a prince, because you come into the nobility that way. That is how we come to belong to the nobility. God alone can ennoble man, but He does not ennoble you formally until you are equal to it spiritually; that is, you are great enough to belong to the 'peerage'. God changed his name. "Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Genesis 32:28).
W.W. What would you say is implied in the blessing of Esau in Genesis 27?
J.T. That is concerning things to come. It would refer to the place that the nations will be in, subordinate to Israel in the future. It is referred to in Hebrews 11:20. "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come". It brings out the richness of Christ in blessing. Even Esau is blessed.
W.M. Is there any help for us here in the first chapter of Ephesians, "After that ye believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"? The people of God spoken of there, had in a kind of a way believed; but when there was a whole-hearted committal to God, and a resting upon what God had said, there was the sealing of the Holy Spirit.
J.T. That is so. It comes in in the order of one, two, three. "After that ye believed". One would say, How long after? So long as you have that before you, I think it is right. Really it reads, "In whom
also, having believed", but the tense would show that it is in the order of believing, and then receiving. As a matter of fact, historically, the Ephesian Christians had believed in John's ministry. They believed on Christ, but through imperfect teaching; Paul preached the gospel to them, but even then they did not get the Spirit. They got it by the laying on of his hands. We have to notice these things, because we have to leave it to God as to when He gives the Spirit. We must not make Him act automatically. It is His sovereign gift. In the Acts we have instances of that. The Samaritans did not get the Spirit until Peter and John came down. Cornelius got the Spirit while Peter was preaching. Those at Ephesus got the Spirit after they were baptised, and Paul laid his hands on them. But the gift is given to all those who obey Christ.
H.W. That puts a great responsibility on the gospel preacher, to bring the mind of God before people, and produce desire, so that people ask.
J.T. Quite. You want to make Christ attractive to souls, so that they go in for what Christ has got for them.
W.J.Y. Where do you put the fourth chapter of John, in connection with Jacob?
J.T. I think it would be in Genesis 32 where he wrestles. He gets the blessing there definitely.
W.J.Y. That is what he gets after he wrestles. Does not John convey the thought not only of something within us, but a link with what is of God without us? We are brought into an environment of blessing. The woman had had an environment that did not satisfy her, but God provides an environment that will perfectly satisfy her.
J.T. That is very good, so that the power in the soul springs up into that.
H.W. What is the sun rising upon him when he went over the brook?
J.T. He is now in the unqualified favour of God. The sun is a symbol of divine favour. Think of what it is to the Christian. What would the Christian be without it?
Ques. Why was it that the One who wrestled with Jacob declined to tell him His name?
J.T. Because He wanted to tell him His name where it could be enhanced. He reserved that for Bethel. The disclosure of His name is in His house. In Bethel He reveals His name to Jacob, because He had come right down to where he was. We read of his feet resting in a certain place, so that Jacob was entirely to God's satisfaction. In chapter 35 He comes right down to Jacob where he is. He is in His house, there by him.
Ques. Is it that after the wrestling the desire to know God was produced in Jacob?
J.T. I think so. Certain things happened afterwards that were very discreditable, but nevertheless God would have him come to Bethel, and dwell there. You will find two histories of the event in chapter 35. One is the historic account from previous records. The other is on the divine side. In chapter 35:1 we read "And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother". In verse 9, God appeared to Jacob again -- an additional record. There God gives him his name. "Thy name is Jacob; thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. And God said unto him, I am God almighty" (verses 10,11). "And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel" (verse 15). That is a divine record of what God did. It includes really all that happened in chapter 32, but it is all brought in here as belonging to Bethel.
Ques. Why did he call it a dreadful place?
J.T. Because he was not equal to it, like numbers of believers at the present time. They are not equal to the place.
Ques. Would you say he was not converted?
J.T. I think he was converted, he had light in his soul. He was in obedience to his father and his mother, but he was not fit for the house.
J.T. Not in the sense of being saved from the world, because he was going to Syria and he remained there for twenty years. He was not saved from that.
H.W. He had not found God yet?
H.W. I think we find God when we get there in our souls.
J.T. That is quite true, but the reading of this passage is, "He wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; even the Lord God of hosts". I think it is God who found Jacob in Bethel.
Ques. What would you say about the twenty years after?
J.T. It is like many of us after we get light, we go in for natural things, and leave an accumulation to our families, but God never gives us up, never! He will come round and order things in His government which will force us to move, and what we find is, that when Joseph was born, Jacob feels that he must move and get out of the place. Christ came into his considerations typically.
W.M. It was the great plight Jacob was in that led to this exercise.
J.T. Yes, but God had ordered the circumstances because all the wives and children and cattle had gone over the brook. He was alone. It was definitely arranged. It brings out the importance of having to do with God personally.
Ques. Is it affection for the Lord Jesus which enables us to prevail?
J.T. I think so. You get to appreciate what He has secured and you go in for it.
Ques. As a prince he gets before God.
J.T. Yes, he belongs to the nobility. "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (James 5:16). He goes to God about things, and God answers him. And then you have power with men. If you are praying for a brother, you are sure to get power with him.
C.S.S. It is not only fervent, but effectual.
Rem. I suppose believers have to overcome the world before they come into the enjoyment of eternal life.
J.T. These chapters show that eternal life is the gift of His love, and the Spirit is the gift of God. God gave His Son in order that we might have eternal life, and gives His Spirit to us in order that we might enjoy it. You want the knowledge of God. As was pointed out, and it is most important, the woman had had to do with an order of things, and she thirsted again, but now she is to be brought into another order of things, and the well in her would lead her to it effectively. The well springs up into everlasting life. You are in that way delivered from the world of sin by the Spirit in you.
Ques. Is not the key to the position, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink"?
J.T. If you only knew, "the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink" -- the light of that would encourage you to ask Him, and He would give you living water.
Ques. Would you say eternal life is where Christ lives?
J.T. It is a sphere and order of things in contrast with what you have here. She had drunk of the
springs of this world, and she thirsted again. But now she had come into an order of things where there was satisfaction. That is a wonderful presentation of the truth, and yet most practical, because the provision of the Spirit lets you into it. Jacob illustrates it by his energy. She left her water pot. She saw the thing was to be in herself.
Ques. If He is the eternal life, we have to reach Him before we can enjoy it? That is, the other side of death.
J.T. Quite so. The question of burying is most important, because the flesh has no part in this at all. The thought of baptism comes in in the third chapter, and in the fourth, and there is no doubt that it has a meaning, because of the spiritual structure that is being built up in you.
L.B.B. Would the well of water springing up be the outcome of wrestling?
J.T. I think so. "I will not let thee go, except thou bless me". It is remarkable that in Romans 6 we have baptism, and in chapter 5:21 "grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life". Chapter 5 is administration. Life is administered. It comes through our Lord Jesus Christ through righteousness. Grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life. Chapter 6 begins with our being baptised. "So many of us as were baptised into Jesus Christ were baptised into his death". "As Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (verses 3,4). It is a new thing entirely. The old is buried. The chapter goes on to "the wages of sin is death". It is through Him in the fifth chapter, but it is in Him, as to position, in the sixth chapter. It is an act of favour of God, the gift of God -- eternal life in Christ Jesus (verse 23).
H.W. Would you say God brings the believer into
divine things before he understands the terms of the things?
J.T. No doubt. You understand the things by having them. You must have them before you can understand them.
Rem. If it is the result of energy, we will value what is hard, and not easy to get.
J.T. It is those that come into it in this way that value it. If you simply accept it as an inheritance you will not value it in the same way. Of course the inheritance is to be valued, because it is on the divine side; but you have to get the individual blessing before you enter into the thing. It is remarkable in the book of Genesis how much of that there is; how the patriarchs were kept waiting for things. Hence Abraham had to wait for a son, and Isaac had to wait for a son, and Jacob had to go into Syria for a wife. They had to go after things, and thus show that they valued them.
Acts 1:1 - 5; Acts 9:32 - 43; Acts 20:8 - 12
J.T. I thought we might say a little more about life this afternoon. Last evening we began with the work of God in our souls, the initial work of God in new birth. I was pointing out that that which is born of the Spirit is spirit, and that it shows itself at the beginning in certain instincts, which disallow the flesh, as Jacob supplanted Esau. As it develops, the believer acquires moral strength, so that he wrestles with God, and sees what God has made available, through the death of Christ, by the gospel, and he values it, and seeks it from God, and obtains it; so that, as spiritual life develops in us, it is marked by energy and appreciation of what God makes available to us in the gospel. The Spirit is in John 4. He becomes in the believer a well of water, springing up into an entirely new order of things, which is called eternal life.
This afternoon I thought we might begin at the top, and see the thing in Christ, because that is how God begins dispensationally. He begins with Christ, and everything is worked out according to that pattern. Hence, I thought that in reading the first chapter of this book we might see something of Christ alive from the dead. It is said, "He presented himself living to them". God has that high standard before Him in the development of life, and His thought is to bring us into accord with that. So that the book of Acts is not from the standpoint of the believer's need, but from the standpoint of the divine requirements and testimony. We begin at the top. We begin with Christ alive after He suffered. I thought that it would be a fitting theme for us on the first day of the week, because it is the day in
which we are free to enter into the land, to apprehend Christ as He is presented in the sheaf of first-fruits. "Christ the first-fruits" (1 Corinthians 15:23). It is really life out of death; there could be no profit for God in man simply dying under penalty. In man dying under penalty there is only the great white throne, and the dead, small and great, stand before Him, but in the sowing of Christ there is a crop for God, a yield for God. That is, I think, what is in view in presenting Christ alive. He is the first-fruits, and the crop comes in in connection with Him. We have part with Him as the first-fruits.
W.J.Y. Would it be right to say on this line the object is Christ risen, and not Christ ascended?
J.T. That is what I think. His forty days on earth after He rose, presenting Himself alive, afford us a view of life, and, as you were saying last night, the Spirit in us leads up to that.
W.J.Y. New conditions down here upon earth.
J.T. Yes. He was seen by them during forty days. That is not recorded in the gospels -- that is, the number of days. It is recorded here because this is the complete form on which things are worked out, in the Acts. So that those who formed the nucleus of the dispensation had an opportunity of witnessing Him for that period of time. They would gather up a remarkable apprehension of Christ in the variety of ways in which He was seen of them during the whole period of forty days.
W.J.Y. I think it has been a difficulty for many that it has been stated that the truth of eternal life is connected with earth, whereas they, in their minds, have connected it with their heavenly position.
J.T. It appears that it is what God brings into the scene where death has been, and in John's epistle, where I do not think the word 'heaven' appears, we have the life worked out in relation to the saints. He says that the Son of God has come, but He came
by water and blood, "not by water only, but by water and blood" (1 John 5:6). "And it is the Spirit that beareth witness". So that in connection with His coming we have the thought of purification -- moral and judicial cleansing. The water is put first, because what is more prominent is the removal of the man who brought in death. The water is that aspect of the death of Christ which sets the man aside from us. The blood sets him aside judicially from before God.
H.W. Why is He presented in that way, when the water sets forth the removal of the man after the flesh?
J.T. Because water is not for God. Water is for us. It is not atonement. Blood is atonement. Blood comes first in John's gospel -- "blood and water". It is a question of what is due to God there. God is considering for us, and our coming into the thing in the epistle of John, and so the water is placed first, because we need to apprehend how thoroughly the man that brought in the guilt and death is disposed of. The water effects complete cleansing in our souls from sin -- from all that has polluted. The blood is atonement. It is the judicial side. It will work out in millennial times in the practical purification of the earth by judgment. Now it works out in our judging ourselves, so that we are "born of water and of the Spirit". The element of water in the birth is, I think, that you learn at the outset to cleanse yourself. It is the idea of purification from what is natural.
Ques. Where would the washing of regeneration come in in that connection?
J.T. It is the same thought. It is an expression used just twice; once in Matthew, referring to the millennial world, where there will be practical purification. The pollution of the world will be washed away by judgment. Now it is by our judging ourselves. Baptism is a symbol of it, I think. But to refer to our brother's suggestion, the epistle of John
works out the great truth of life in connection with the Son of God having come. It does not say that He has come and gone -- come and ascended to heaven. It is that the Son of God has come, and come by water and blood. There is no thought of His going, in John's epistle. It is that He has come into the sphere of testimony, to bring in life, and life is brought in and presented as in Him. "This life is in his Son" (1 John 5:11).
W.J.Y. It does not mean that what we enjoy here on earth we lose in any way when the time of ascension comes. We do not lose it.
J.T. It is the victory over death; life in the Son where death has been, is the great thing God had before Him in regard to man, but it works out in the assembly. In fact, He works out all His thoughts on the ground of eternal life, because if men are to live for ever acceptably to God, He works out His thoughts in them. In this chapter we have Christ seen alive. He presented Himself alive to His disciples during forty days so that they might apprehend what the divine thought was. They would see it there in a concrete way in Him, and the coming of the Spirit would enable them to live in that in a spiritual way, even whilst down here.
H.W. Is it what John speaks of in the epistles, "Which thing is true in him and in you" (1 John 2:8)? You see the thing set forth in Christ first.
J.T. Quite so. It is important to note that in John's epistle it is not what ascended to heaven, but it is the Son of God having come. There is nothing said about His going. We are in a faith system. We apprehend Him as having come in. He is apprehended by faith, and the life is in Him, and we have got it in Him. "This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 John 5:11).
W.J.Y. Your suggestion is that the forty days He lived upon earth a Man in resurrection under the eye
of God are a pattern to us of what eternal life truly is.
J.T. That is what I thought. The ten days that ensued until the Holy Spirit came down bring about the exercises of the fifty days spoken of in the book of Leviticus. They were to number fifty days from the time of the offering up of the sheaf. No doubt the forty days would enter into it, too, but for ten days the Lord would place them on their own resources. They would work out in their own exercises what they had seen, and in the coming in of the Spirit and His taking that up -- you have the two wave loaves. There is correspondence with Christ in us. Even whilst we are still in the flesh, provision is made so that we should correspond with Christ.
E.B. The Lord having presented Himself alive in this connection, was it really for the assembly period, for the present moment?
J.T. That is it. He was setting before them what God would lead them to in a spiritual way by the Spirit. So that the epistle gives us an authentic account of the thing. "That ... which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" (1 John 1:1). The thing was there, and they were witnesses of it, and John sought to bring the believers into that.
H.W. "That ... which we have seen" and "handled" -- would that refer to the Lord as known in resurrection?
J.T. Yes. It was true of Him before, too. I think what is presented in the gospel is that Christ, as He is risen from the dead, has eternal life. What is presented in the gospel preached, I mean. The apostle is working it out. We have to understand how he came into the land, to lay hold of Christ, and apprehend Him as He is out of death. He could be here for forty days unseen by the world outside. He could go in and out, notwithstanding closed doors.
And yet it was Himself. There were many proofs that it was Himself.
L.B.B. So that eternal life is not something you can take account of outwardly?
J.T. The effects of it you can take account of outwardly, but the thing itself is outside the range of men in this world. The apostle saw it.
W.J.Y. Is your thought that during the forty days a perfect example was before them, and then there were ten days of soul exercise on their part, and then the Spirit comes to give them power to carry out their exercise?
J.T. That is what I thought, so that they could bring out of their dwellings what would correspond with Christ. There is no leaven to deal with when we are translated to heaven; it refers to us as we are now. By the Spirit the flesh is so effectively dealt with that it has no entrance.
C.S.S. Do you connect baking with the laying hold?
J.T. You cannot be in the enjoyment of this, which is so perfectly seen in Christ in this passage, and allow the flesh. Some of us are like dough -- not baked at all, and some of us are half-baked. That is, the fire has not become wholly effective. We have not applied the fire. The Spirit came in the character of cloven tongues and of fire. The fire is the power that one has of effectively disallowing the flesh, so that, although it is admitted to be present, it is not active.
H.W. Are you referring to the two wave loaves?
H.W. You suggest that answers to the assembly position?
J.T. Yes, it answers to the individual exercises of each one in the light of the sheaf of first-fruits. The sheaf is offered up by the priests. The next thing is, how may I be brought into accord with that? It is
because I am left down here as I am that the fire is necessary, so that, notwithstanding the sin in me, I am brought into accord with Christ.
J.S. Does the epistle to the Colossians come in in connection with the forty days?
J.T. It is on that line. We are said there to be "risen with him through the faith of the operation of God" (Colossians 2:12), so that we are brought into correspondence with Christ in Colossians in the sense that we are circumcised in His circumcision, and baptised with Him in baptism, and raised with Him by faith. Notice the words 'by faith'. We are not circumcised by faith, or baptised by faith, but risen by faith. It is the faith of the operation of God, meaning that I apprehend the power of God. It is effective in Christ, and it is to be effective in me. The thing is already done for faith, and I take account of it that way. Then we are quickened with Him. This is not by faith, because it is actual. Circumcision is actual, and burial is actual, and quickening is actual, but resurrection is on the principle of faith, and that maintains the dispensation, because it is in faith: I have power in my soul to enter into the position because I am quickened.
Ques. Is there a distinction between resurrection and quickening?
J.T. The only person out of death is Christ, but the power of God in Christ -- I believe in it. It is not the faith that He is risen, it is faith in the operation of God. I believe in the power; not merely in the historical fact that Christ is risen, but in the power that raised Him. So that God can regard things that be not as though they were, and so can I. The quickening is an Æactual thing, which is effective in my soul by the Spirit, and what is so precious in Colossians is that everything is of Christ. If you love Him, you value that. So that faith and the Spirit's work go together. Now that power is operative
in your soul to quicken you. Presently the body will be quickened as well as the soul.
W.J.Y. If faith is really operative, I suppose we would submit ourselves to the Spirit?
J.T. That gives the Spirit His range.
W.J.Y. We should sow to the Spirit?
J.T. Quite. In the measure of our faith the Spirit has range in us, and no more than that. I thought that chapter 9 helps us as to life in its bearing on the testimony practically. It is not only that I live for my own enjoyment. God satisfies the desire of every living thing. Every desire I have is satisfied as I apprehend my place in Christ. He satisfies the desire of every living thing, but then there is more than that; in my being satisfied spiritually, I am available in testimony. "The trees of the Lord are satisfied", or "full of sap", and, being full of sap, they are ornamental, and they afford shelter, and there is fruit and greenness, and all that which delights the eye of God, and man, too.
C.S.S. Is that in Psalm 1?
J.T. Yes, and in Psalm 104 particularly. The Psalm develops the bountifulness of God in the creation. There is plenty of nourishment for the trees, and they afford shelter for the birds -- in a good sense here. The stork has a house for herself there. Peter, discerning what God is about to do in Paul's ministry, accepts it, because the thought of life is to mark every local company for testimony. We have the idea in the Scriptures, not only of life in persons, but life in localities. Peter, I think, anticipated what God intended to effect in the Gentile world, and so he went to "all quarters", and he intimates in the case of Æneas that grace was acting now in connection with a new order of things. He says to Æneas, "Jesus, the Christ heals thee". He had the testimony in view, so he says, "Rise up, and make thy couch for thyself". That is, he intimates that,
in the new line of things God was bringing in, in Paul's ministry, the local companies everywhere should learn to do things for themselves. There should be that sense of obligation, not depending on Jerusalem, so to speak, but learning to do things for themselves. And then, consequent on that, there is a living woman, a woman raised from the dead. Peter presents this woman living. We have a man making his bed for himself, and then the living woman.
W.J.Y. On both occasions the power of Christ operated first?
W.J.Y. Would it correspond in measure with John 7 -- "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"?
J.T. I thought so. In a man that can make his bed for himself, and a woman living, you have the testimony of John 7, because that is the effect of life, the Spirit being here.
Rem. Man making his bed for himself would involve that he not only has life, but power.
J.T. Quite. He is not dependent on a visiting person. He values him when he comes, but he sees that what is to be done is done locally, and then the living woman is like a green fir tree. That is what Ephraim says he is, "I am like a green fir tree" (Hosea 14:8). He stands the test of all weathers. A fir is, I apprehend, an evergreen, and, therefore, if you come to the locality where spiritual life is (the living woman) you have the greenness in all weathers -- however trying things may be. Life is there in evidence, whatever happens. I do not suggest that the fir is a fruit tree. It serves that one thought, that it stands out in its greenness, whatever happens. God says, "From me is thy fruit found" (Hosea 14:8). That is another thought.
W.C. The fir tree withstands the elements.
C.S.S. Are you speaking of individuals, or companies?
J.T. It is individual. You may apply it to an individual or to a company.
C.S.S. "How good and how pleasant it is" (Psalm 133:1) -- is that the thought?
J.T. Yes; the woman gives character subjectively. She is presented to the saints and to the widows living. You had her making garments, but now it is a living person. That would exercise all these saints and these widows, because now they have a person out of death -- an immense testimony!
C.S.S. In the working out of life, is it the same idea as eternal life, or would there be a distinction?
J.T. This is more the form it takes in the testimony. The Lord, in chapter 1. presents the idea of what is for God. You enter into that for enjoyment, but then there is the testimony -- the effect of that. God being the living God, you find the reference to what is living generally in scriptures that refer to the Jews; and it was important that Peter, being an apostle of the circumcision, should exercise the idea of life, in view of what was coming in among the Gentiles. The conditions in Judaea should correspond with those about to be set up among the Gentiles. From Jerusalem, round about Illyricum (which was an immense tract of territory), the gospel was to be announced by Paul, and, in the announcing of it, a number of assemblies were formed, and these assemblies would all be marked by these two things -- making their beds for themselves, and living. Peter anticipates all that, guided by the Spirit, and prepares for exchange between Paul's assemblies and what was in Judaea, so that the assembly at Thessalonica imitated the assemblies of God which were in Judaea. They could do so, because Peter's ministry had laid the foundation for what was universal.
W.J.Y. Would it bear the application that in
Peter we see how one spiritual man could be used to improve local conditions?
J.T. I am sure that is right. The Lord appeared to Cephas, and He appeared to the twelve; and He appeared to five hundred brethren at once; and He appeared to James. In appearing to James, He meant to impress James in a special way, so that He might set out what one man can do -- how much one man can do. Five hundred brethren, of course, would be five hundred impressions of Christ, but one man gets an appearing by himself, and there would be, therefore, a remarkable impression made on his soul, and I take this to indicate what one man can effect in the things of God; like Elias, whom James speaks of. One man shut up the heavens for three and a half years by prayer, and again he prayed and the heaven gave rain; (James 5:17,18). It is a most important side in connection with the testimony. Peter, in this movement, going into all quarters, and anticipating the work coming in through Paul, laid a gauge of railway, so to speak, which would correspond with the gauge of the Gentile world. You do not have to change trains, so to speak. You could start from Illyricum, on the shores of the Adriatic, and proceed eastward in the same carriage, because the principles of Peter, and those of Paul, agreed. The assemblies in Judaea and the churches in the Gentile world were now governed by the same principles. It was no longer a metropolitan influence. Each had learnt to make its bed for itself, and there was life locally, so that brethren going from Illyricum or Rome to an assembly in Judaea would be quite at home. They were all governed by the same principles. That is an immense thought in connection with the working out of the testimony of God, that the same principles should rule everywhere. We should not admit of local customs or national customs. Peter, later in his epistle, confirms Paul's doctrine in saying
they were "living stones" (1 Peter 2:5). As coming to Him they were living stones, and that would divert them from Jerusalem. "Ye ... are built up a spiritual house". That all confirms Paul's universal principles. The Corinthians were the temple of God.
Ques. Was the evidence of life in making the bed, for themselves, or for those outside as well?
J.T. It is a principle of doing things that are to be done. If you want to be comfortable, you need to make your own bed. You must not expect others to do it. Peter and John went down to Samaria. That was right then, but the time was coming when that had to cease, and they had to learn to do things themselves.
Oues. You see the Spirit coming in an independent way?
J.T. It is autonomy. You are not exactly independent. You are inter-dependent, but you are not looking to any centre like London or Melbourne for help. You learn to do things yourselves in every locality.
W.J.Y. The principles of life are active in every place.
H.W. There would be exercise in doing things for ourselves to be in line with the features of the house of God.
J.T. That is it; so that the train can start from here and go right through. One has observed, in going about, local customs in connection with things of God -- particularly in other countries -- and it is a thing to be avoided.
E.B. God has wrought sovereignly in connection with new birth in every locality, so that He might bring these conditions about.
J.T. That is it. Life is of its own kind.
W.W. If things are not running on these lines, as suggested in that part of the chapter, there is the danger of specialising.
J.T. She was "full of good works and alms-deeds which she did".
W.W. She had one line before her mind. When she was raised to life again it would be on different lines. It would not be on a narrow gauge.
J.T. To come to chapter 20, I think there we have resuscitated life. I suppose the reference would be to assembly history. It may be, therefore, regarded as life, such as we have it now, brought in after failure. It is brought in through affection. "Enfolding him in his arms", it says. It does not appear that he was wholly dead. He was capable of resuscitation. "They brought away the boy alive". The living boy is youthful life. In some gatherings there is more of the life of experience with God than of the youthful feature. We need both, to have things according to God. And I think what you get here is a suggestion of life in those who are young. "They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted".
J.S. He was a youth before he fell, and when he was "come up again" he was a boy.
J.T. When it says a youth it means a young person. A boy is more than that. There is responsibility. You hold a boy of twelve, or fifteen, or eighteen years as responsible in some sense. He is responsible. There is nothing so attractive, naturally, as youthful life. How much more so in a spiritual way, as young people are budding out and showing the evidence of spiritual life. There is a certain freshness about them.
C.S.S. They are going through the baking.
J.T. Quite. There is a freshness about youth. It is a great loss if we have not got it.
C.S.S. Speaking of restored life, is that why the Spirit of God has been bringing the question of life so much before us of late?
J.T. It is a great feature in John. It shows that
it comes in at the end of the dispensation. It is the secret of recovery. God has resuscitated His people. He has made us to live. Paul enfolded him in his arms. It is the principle of Philadelphia -- love of the brethren. We do not love at a distance from one another. We drink out of the same cup. It is the principle of family interests and affection.
W.B.P. Do you think things had really died, and God is bringing life amongst the saints as a whole?
J.T. Yes. The people of God ceased to listen to Paul. You see here how serious it was with Eutychus. If it were not for Paul's intervention he would have died.
W.W. In that sense can we administer Paul's caress now?
J.T. I think you know. How do you deal with the young people here?
W.W. I should like to deal with them on these lines. The assembly was "not a little comforted".
J.T. The Lord is reviving this spirit of affection among the brethren, so that there is care and interest shown.
W.J.Y. Do you refer in a practical way to the last ten years? There has been a very evident movement in connection with the young people of our meetings.
J.T. One is struck with it. It is most encouraging. A boy has to be controlled, of course, and guided, but there is a freshness and vigour in a young person which does not mark an old one.
W.C. You say the thing is essential to the life of an assembly?
W.C. Is that on the ground of restored life?
J.T. It is. Dispensationally, I think it is what our brother has referred to -- that which God, having come in, has brought about. The thought of the Lord's supper being made prominent, and that He is coming to us, brought about affection that marked
the assembly at the beginning. I think Paul represents the fulness of Christian affection. It is there presented as in no other person. He knew the love of Christ more than anyone else, I judge, because he says, "who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). And, knowing the love of Christ, he could express it to others. I think the Lord is reviving that thought, and bringing about affection like that, and, further, there has been great concern about young people. They are given to know that they are cared for and loved, loved into life.
L.B.B. What would be indicated by this youth being overpowered by sleep -- that there was indifference?
J.T. Yes, indifference to Paul's ministry.
Ques. Is there anything in the fact that in chapter 10 Peter descends to the saints, and in chapter 20 Paul descends to the youth?
J.T. It is descending love. When you descend you do it of yourself. The New Jerusalem descends from God out of heaven. It is the liberty of love, I think.
W.J.Y. I think that last thought in connection with what is youthful is very encouraging. There was a time when it seemed as if what was youthful was being stifled by mere doctrine. One is thankful for the brotherliness which has recovered the youthful element among us.
J.T. It marks the brethren. The principles governing the believer's household have been emphasised, and, I think, accepted. The people of God accept the principles that govern the believer's household. The gospel was announced in Europe to the gaoler, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31). There is no doubt that the Lord intended that the households of His people should contribute to the assemblies in Europe, and it has come to pass.
C.S.S. Is there the suggestion that the youth had got above his brethren?
J.T. I think he had an eye on the world. Paul was discoursing a long time.
E.B. The recovery here was in connection with the saints being together in the light of breaking bread. Is that largely how recovery is going on at the present moment?
J.T. The Lord has emphasised the thought of the truth of His supper, and I think it has promoted affection such as Paul had. We count on affection. It has led to consideration for young people. So that you have, that they break bread and take the boy away alive. That is how the matter stands.
J.W. The window seat is not a good place for the young people. They want to get into the warmth of the circle.
J.T. Yes. This young man was sitting in the window opening.
Ephesians 4:1 - 6; Proverbs 31:10 - 31
J.T. In considering these scriptures I thought that we might be led to see that the divine thought is that all the saints should be active. I had in mind, particularly, verses 15 and 16 of Ephesians 4, which contemplate an organism. The earlier part of the chapter indicates what corresponds with the natural or physical creation; there is an order of things established: "One body and one Spirit ... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". We have an order of things indicated corresponding with the physical order of things. That is, God has provided from His side what we may speak of as light, and heat, and atmosphere -- everything that is necessary -- but these conditions have to be taken up, and each one has to become industrious in order that there should be growth and progression; in a word, spiritual independency. It is in utilising what God has so bountifully provided in nature that men live and provide for themselves what is necessary, and so I think in the spiritual order of things it is in utilising what God has made available so bountifully that we develop and become spiritually rich and independent. It says, "To each one of us has been given grace" (Ephesians 4:7).
H.W. In view of our finding our place in relation to the whole?
Ques. When you speak of being independent, you do not mean independent of one another?
J.T. No, it is an independent organism. There is absolute mutual dependence in an organism, but
verses 15 and 16 indicate that there is independence of what is outside -- what is in this world.
H.W. Is grace given to us in order that we might act in connection with these three circles of blessing, which are mentioned here?
J.T. Yes, I think these three circles of blessing may be taken to represent the general conditions in which we may become successfully industrious. There is every prospect of success. We all know that in prospecting in colonial life we take into account all the conditions, the heat, and the possible rain, the fertility of the soil, etc., so that, taking account of all these things as favourable, you reasonably decide that by application and industry you are sure to be successful. I think these things which are mentioned, these three circles and the grace given to every one of us, furnish conditions that ensure success if we are at all industrious. Then in addition to these general conditions, you have the gifts as additional helps.
W.J.Y. I think we need to be stirred up as to spiritual energy. The lack of balance in the presentation of the gospel, the insisting on the pure grace of the gospel, has led us, perhaps, to think that energy was never required. We say, "Cast your deadly doing down" and we go on these lines for the rest of our lives.
J.T. That means we are parasites spiritually, of whom there are a great many. And perhaps we are parasites, with the assumption that it is according to God to be a parasite, but the divine intent is that we should be industrious, and contribute to the general prosperity of the assembly.
H.W. The book of Proverbs will help on that line.
J.T. That is the reason I turned to it, because it works up to what we get in the last chapter. It points out the sluggard, the lazy man, and then over against that, the faithful, industrious man.
Ques. Would you say the industrious man gets spiritual support -- he learns to stand alone?
J.T. Yes. You have so much in your favour. See how bountifully God has provided for us in the physical system. There is the sun rising every morning, with its light and heat, reaching everywhere. There is nothing hid from the heat of it. And then there is an atmosphere so fresh and health-giving. It is all provided in the most infinite bounty. And then the rain comes down unsolicited, and the earth is fertile. God has created conditions on the earth with which we have had nothing to do. All the conditions are there, but man is to be on the scene, and it is for him to utilise them, and, of course, he does. But how about it spiritually? There is not one of us but has some employment. One of the first things a person capable of working wants to know is what he is going to do, what is to be his work. It is as natural as anything. But does it work this way spiritually?
L.B.B. I suppose if we were industrious we would become contributors?
J.T. A young believer asks, "What is my employment to be?" that is the first thing. Then the second is that he turns to the Lord about it, and it soon appears that there is plenty of work for him, and that grace is provided, because it says, "To each one of us has been given grace" (verse 7). And then you see how bountifully God has provided spiritual things, corresponding to the things which are in the physical creation: light, heat, atmosphere, and even soil, because one can begin with oneself. If one is to produce a crop, one has to begin with oneself, and begin sowing to the Spirit. As the believer learns to sow in himself, he learns to cast his seed a little further out, and so he becomes productive. General productiveness leads to riches in the "Commonwealth".
H.W. We have been led to believe that activity
with a young soul recently brought into blessing has sometimes been injurious as to the work of God in the soul.
J.T. I think one begins in oneself, because that is a bit of territory which no one can dispute. You have your own self or body. That is, according to Romans 12:1, the first thing that you are to surrender. "Present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable". One begins with one's own self, and if you cultivate that little bit, more ground will be available. You see here that the virtuous woman acquires a field. She extends her industry. If I develop the little bit that no one can dispute, then it will soon become apparent that I am able to develop more, that I have some farming ability, so to speak. It says in Isaiah 28:26 of the farmer, that "his God doth instruct him".
H.W. Do you suggest that our activities in connection with industry in divine things should be with a view to accumulating wealth for ourselves?
J.T. Yes. It all leads up to verses 15 and 16, where you have the body in its automatic activity, self-acting.
W.C. Before we enter into the activities, the last phrase of verse 1 would come in, "Walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called".
J.T. Quite. In fact the apostle Paul's position, as a prisoner in the Lord, is a help, because it suggests that however limited we may be in the government of God, we may still be productive. He was a prisoner. He was a prisoner in the Lord. One may be in circumstances that are extremely trying, as his were, but it is "in the Lord", and one can reckon that if it is "in the Lord", the Lord will come in. So that, however trying the circumstances may be, I may still be productive, as Paul was.
W.J.Y. The illustration of nature is very helpful, because all the activities of man are connected withEDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (1)
EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (2)
EDUCATION FOR EFFECTIVE TESTIMONY (3)
THE ASSEMBLY
FAITH
LIFE
THE ENERGY OF LIFE
SPIRITUAL ACTIVITY