Mark 1:1 - 20; Mark 2:18 - 28

J.T. I hope the Lord will give something a little outside of what most of us understand in this gospel. Certain features have occurred to one. First there is the abruptness with which the writer introduces his subject, which reminds us of secret history with God. We have public history; but persons being introduced abruptly without any previous history being given would suggest the perfect knowledge God has of those He takes up for service, they take it up as having had educative relations with Himself. The introduction of John the Baptist here is in line with this, as also that of the Lord Himself, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God". The same thing appears in certain characters of the Old Testament. Aaron and Elijah particularly are introduced in the service without their previous history being given; the first being typical of all Levites, because he is formally called "the Levite"; besides, in speaking of him to Moses God intimates His acquaintance with him, both as to his speaking ability and his heart. Elijah comes in with authority. If one has authority in service there can be no question of one's previous relations with God. Then there is certain teaching in relation to the sea this gospel in which the Lord may help us later.

F.H.E. Why is the Lord introduced as "Son of God" rather than as Son of Abraham and Son of David as in Matthew?

J.T. I think it is in regard to the dignity and finality of the service; that personality necessarily marks those who are serving; not only that there is history with God,

but personality through family relationship. This applies to the Lord Himself, although in Person of course He is unique; but the personality involved in family relationship underlies all service, as seen in the Levites, who were all firstborn ones. This family dignity is owned and confirmed by God as the result of a secret history pleasing to Him. Thus here the voice from heaven to Christ is, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight".

Eu.R. Have you any thought why it begins, "Beginning of the glad tidings"?

J.T. The idea is that the vessel is, fully in the thing.

I am speaking now of ourselves, but this is seen in the Lord, who is our example in everything. Paul's ministry did not begin properly until Acts 13 although he had served before. This gospel treats specially of Levitical principles, not the Levitical principles that are the subject: in the book of Joshua, but as in Numbers. We have to take account of the Levites from the standpoint of Numbers, and also from the standpoint of Joshua. In the latter they are seen as typically heavenly, exerting heavenly influence. In Numbers the Levite entered into service at the age of twenty-five, but thirty was the age at which he began his service properly.

M.W.B. Would you contrast the line of service in Mark with that in John? I was wondering whether you had in mind the more formal kind of service as in Mark.

J.T. Exactly.. John treats of the Lord's service as proceeding from Himself without any regard to the principles that should govern the Levite. That is, He does not wait for John to be cast into prison, but proceeds of himself. In the others he waits for this occurrence.

M.W.B. Yes; you referred to Acts 13 in regard to tile apostle, but he had preached before that; there is a contrast.

J.T. Yes; his proper beginning was as sent out by

the Holy Spirit. That is, there might be a good deal of previous work, and very good work too, but the beginning of a man's service is when God formally recognizes him as called into service. That is what is in mind here: "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God". Therefore the Spirit goes back to the prophet, not resting only on the Person of the Son of God as in John; He is observing the Levitical principles. So that He goes on immediately to cite the prophet in regard to John the Baptist.

Eu.R. So in transferring this to ourselves after the link with the brethren and the assembly. Is that what you had in mind?

J.T. Yes. One has often thought of the dual transaction of Acts 13 the transaction with the Lord directly, and then the transaction with the brethren, which Saul had. These two things go together in regard of the way for the Levitical position; at Antioch they lay their hands on him as the Holy Spirit recognized him. Ananias represented the brethren at Damascus.

J.J. Does that verse shew that Paul had a good deal of influence in the writing of this gospel?

J.T. Mark is the writer undoubtedly, and you can understand how the Holy Spirit would use him as conversant with Paul's gospel, that is, the gospel of the Son of God.

J.J. Yes; I thought of the fine word at the end of 2 Timothy about Mark: "He is serviceable to me for ministry",(2 Timothy 4:11).

J.T. No one could be more serviceable than the writer of this gospel, and the apostle must have had great concern, about the continuance of the ministry. Mark would greatly help to promote it. That the apostle could thus speak of Mark, as he was about to pass out of the service himself bears, I believe, on this gospel.

F.H.B. I thought the verse (Hebrews 12:23) you called attention to would shew that all levitical service should be carried out in the light of sonship.

P.L. So the Levites are the firstborn. Would that link up with the "Son of God"?

J.T. Yes; each one was a firstborn, and what I think we may see in that connection is that it would imply the influence of heaven in our service; not merely that we have a personality, but our position is heaven. As the seventy return and record their great success in the service, the Lord says, "Yet in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens", (Luke 10:20). That takes one out of the undue influence of success in the service; the servant retires into the greatness of his heavenly position, and that is really the great safeguard for us in successful service.

H.D'A.C. Why does Paul say, "He is serviceable to me for ministry"? Why not to the saints or the brethren?

J.T. I suppose he was profitable to him personally, and that is why he wanted him to be with him. The apostle's ministry in Rome would be largely in writing "The parchments" would indicate this, and Mark would serve in this connection.

Eu.R. Was the Lord Himself the pattern of that retirement when service was apparently unsuccessful, when He said, "I thank thee, O Father"?

J.T. It is just at that point He says that. It is in Matthew you get that feature, where His rejection is very evident. He retires into the sense of what He was with His Father who had "hid these things from the wise and prudent". But in Luke what occasions the praise is that their names are written in heaven; and then He speaks to the Father as to this, that He had revealed "these things" to the babes, and hidden them from the wise and prudent, and then He goes on to speak to His Father about Himself, that "no one knows who the Son is but the Father,

and who the Father is but the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son is pleased to reveal him", Luke 10:22. Then He turns to the disciples, as much as to say, all this is to influence you so that they should not be unduly occupied with their success. We should, of course, thank God for the success, but the retirement into the thought of what one is in heaven, is deliverance, and maintains the balance.

Ques. Do you regard Mark's gospel as indicating Christ serving here as a model?

J.T. Yes; as the "Son of God".

Eu.R. Is it your thought that the Son of God here is based more on Luke's gospel: "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God"?

J.T. It is "shall be called" personality acquired. The title is after certain history; of course the Person was there, but came out in Him as man is in view.

Eu.R. And then, "Wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?" and then His baptism is based on that.

J.T. Quite; the Father's voice speaks of what He found in Him.

H.E.S. Are both thoughts of dignity given in Exodus 4, where God says, "Israel is my son, my firstborn ... . Let my son go, that he may serve me"?

J.T. Yes; all that came out in Christ.

Ques. Does the character of the service in Mark involve that a vessel shall be given over to it entirely?

J.T. Yes; addicted to it.

Rem. We may take up service in an incidental sort of way, such as preaching the gospel on the Lord's day, and forget the levitical side during the other days of the week.

Ques. Would you say what was in your mind in referring to the Levites in Numbers and in Joshua? What is the distinction?

J.T. Numbers, in general, gives the toilsome side, we "labour and suffer reproach". The word used in Numbers 4, for the Levite calling involves strenuous work (Compare 2 Timothy 1:8,2:3); whereas Joshua generally treats of the Levites as priests, and that they have no inheritance here on earth. The book emphasises their heavenly position and privileges, particularly that besides the sacrifices of the Lord they had forty eight cities in Israel, meaning that they would not be heavenly only, but persons in cities, apprehending the idea of a city. The idea of a city is accentuated in the forty-eight that their influence should flow out universally city wise. It implies, therefore, an understanding of the thought of God in a city; that was to be seen in the Levites in the way of influence. Their commonwealth was in heaven; and so the great thing from that point of view would be heavenly influence, but citywise, not simply the idea of heaven, but the idea of a city; for that is the way heaven takes form finally in its relation with the earth. That is, it comes out concretely in an intelligent, understandable way; because a city is a known idea, and God graciously comes into our range in known ideas. Heaven, as a place is hardly known to men.

Ques. Would "forty eight" imply administration universally?

J.T. It is administration in an influential way. The heavenly city is light and rule, but rule of a most benign kind.

E.J.McB. And is your idea that it comes out now as it will do by and by?

J.T. Yes. You lay hold of the idea of a city, and it works out in your influence. It takes a person out of his individuality and sets him in relation to the city; particularly the cities of refuge, because those belonged to the levites; that there should be the continuance of grace; this was to be maintained amongst them.

H.D'A.C. Those forming the heavenly city have

learned to exert city influence here before they come out in it.

J.T. And one can see that the standpoint of Joshua is most important, but perhaps not much observed by us in our service. It takes us out of ruts and parties into a very high altitude where we are the distributors of grace in an ordered way, as in a city; so that it is distributed with intelligence. If our influence is only based on gift, we miss the teaching of Joshua.

Eu.R. Are you suggesting that our relations in our localities should take character from these cities, and that it is of great importance for a Levite to have a sense of being part of that heavenly administration?

J.T. Yes. The 'suburbs' might at any time be examined as a test. Comparatively the suburbs were small, but they were large enough as a test as to what influence really there was. So, if I go to a locality and I am with God, I discern what kind of influence there is there whether it is heavenly; if so, it should be extended.

Eu.R. What does the suburb suggest to us?

J.T. The immediate vicinity; sufficient to prove whether you have influence with God, We can test ourselves in that way.

Ques. Were they not the same measurement as the ark was in front of the children of Israel as they crossed the Jordan, two thousand cubits?

J.T. Yes. The distance, therefore, was not great; but it was enough to test just what influence was being exercised in any of those forty-eight cities, whether anything good was being done. So you can test the influence of the saints by the immediate vicinity.

J.J. How do you account for this gospel beginning with the wilderness in contrast to what you said?

J.T. That is a very important thing too, because the wilderness does not minister to the flesh. When the angel told Philip to go down to the road from Jerusalem

to Gaza, he told him it was a desert Philip would soon find this out, but he is specially told of it. That is to say, the servant has to make up his mind to that. It was said of John the baptist, in his private history, that he dwelt "in the deserts", not only in the desert, but in the deserts, shewing he had a variety of desert experience.

Eu.R. Then that has a place with us as to committing ourselves to the position. It says of Zion, "All my springs are in thee", (Psalm 87:7); as accepting the position of service we are not to expect anything but wilderness conditions. If devoted to the service of the Lord, our springs are elsewhere.

J.T. That is the idea. In kindness to you the Lord would convey that it is not an easy path; He said to one who followed Him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the heaven roosting places, but the Son of man has not where he may lay his head", (Luke 9:58). It is kindness because young people setting out in the Lord's service are sure to be disappointed unless they understand what is involved and know where to turn for support and provision.

J.J. Do you think the desert experience of Philip was the balance to the success he had in Samaria?

J.T. Yes. And it is in that way he is honoured progressively. First, as he accepts the direction of the angel and goes into the desert, the Spirit speaks to him. That is progressive honour. It is greater thing for the Holy Spirit to speak to him than an angel; and then he joins himself to the chariot, and conducts himself in such a manner that the Holy Spirit lays bald of him entirely, and catches him away. That would impress upon us that it is a question of how we conduct ourselves in the service.

Eu.R. So in regard of the Lord Jesus here, the Spirit comes upon Him early in this chapter, and then drives Him into the wilderness.

J.T. Quite. That is another thing in Mark that

the Lord recoiled from having to do with Satan. He is driven by the Spirit here. The true levite does not seek out contact with the devil, but he does not refuse it if he has to face it. Then another thing here is that the word from heaven is to Himself, which is important; that you are made conscious that you are pleasing to God.

M.W.B. Do you associate that with the idea of personality?

J.T. Of course His divinity underlies all, but it is acquired personality here; as also in Luke: He "shall be called Son of God". It is His personal excellence in private life, and so God is now acquainting Him from heaven with His delight in Him, which is very precious. We should not mar that with any self-occupation in service, any dwelling on our ability or success.

P.L. "Mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!" (Isaiah 42:1).

H.D'A.C. The temptation, bringing out His perfection as Man, greatly aroused Satan.

H.H. We should appreciate the wilderness setting as that, which does not minister to the flesh, and so helps to establish us on the line of what it is to be for God here.

H.E.S. Are you suggesting that a servant has a dual experience -- experience with God and wilderness experience?

J.T. Quite; John "was in the deserts, until the day of his shewing to Israel", (Luke 1:80). The world is definitely given up, and you do not minister to the flesh; you deny the flesh; otherwise you will not accept the service in all its glory. This, no doubt, explains Mark's breakdown. As accepting the wilderness we find what God can be to us in our service.

Ques. Is that what you meant by secret history with God?

J.T. Exactly.

P.L. John is in the deserts before he is baptising in the wilderness.

J.T. Quite; and we see what moral power there was in his baptism. He would convey to you something of the idea of the crossing of the Red Sea, which introduces into the wilderness.

Ques. Would John's clothing shew the idea of wilderness history before he attempts his public service?

J.T. Yes. Camel's hair; camels stand the wilderness well. Then his food was "locusts and wild honey", so the wilderness was not new to him as he commenced to serve. It is well to train oneself to self denial. Paul says, "I buffet my body, and lead it captive", (1 Corinthians 9:27).

R.B. All this is in keeping with the Lord coming from Nazareth of Galilee. I am thinking of the secret place He had with God as accepting reproach.

J.T. It is very touching to think of the Son of God, the Creator of the universe, being in such obscurity and reproach all those years. It was "a town called Nazareth" a place of no reputation. Thus He was called a Nazaraean, answering to the testimony of the prophets as to His reproach, (Matthew 2:23).

Now the next thing is the character of the Lord's first gospel address, as it were. He waited for John to be delivered up and then "came into Galilee preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, and saying. The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has drawn nigh; repent and believe in the glad tidings". That is very short, and it is His first recorded address. It contains The substance of what He preached in Galilee.

E.J.McB. It is far reaching. Do you think the emphasis lies on the repentance as making the position possible for the glad tidings?

J.T. Exactly. We are speaking from the standpoint of the preacher or servant, and he should know that the glad tidings will not be effective without repentance in those who hear.

E.J.McB. Do you not think that is the value of the wilderness experience?

J.T. Yes. John the baptist knew what the flesh was; he had proved it "in the deserts", and so preached "the baptism of repentance". The Lord continues that note, calling on people to repent. Then, notice it is not simply believe the glad tidings but believe in them. No believer can take it all in at once; but you have such a sense of the magnificence of the gospel as hearing it, that it is a question of the believer believing in the thing; that there is such a thing as the gospel, and that it has to be gone into, and explored, so to speak, in all its wonders. That is, the idea of preaching is to convey a right thought at the start; that you do not minimize the gospel; you do not bring it down to a verse of scripture; but you convey to the hearers that a wonderful thing has come in, how God has come out in Christ for their deliverance and blessing. The Lord in Mark almost personifies the gospel.

E.J.McB. So you want people really to believe in the thing.

J.T. And then to look into it and see what is in it. The epistle to the Romans opens up the gospel, but I believe in it to begin with.

M.W.B. Believing is like an open door that leads you into an immense storehouse.

J.T. That is what I thought.

M.W.B. One feels what vast resources there are.

J.T. Do you present it that way?

M.W.B. I should like to.

J.T. One only raises the question because it is important that you should convey to the hearer that there is such a thing as that. The Lord's first address is that of course He would say other things, but that conveys the great thought, that there is such a wonderful thing come in, and that is "glad tidings", and one is to believe in them.

R.B. Then do you mean that the power of the preacher lies largely in his believing in the glad tidings?

J.T. The gospel must be effective in him if it is to be so in his hearers. If I am a son in conscious dignity, I am more than a forgiven person. I enjoy forgiveness, but I am more than that. I have come into the light and good of Paul's gospel. As the apostle says. God "was pleased to reveal his Son in me". (Galatians 1:16).

H.D'A.C. It is a vast world of light into which he has come and in which he lives.

W.R.P. Would believing in the gospel suppose one's affections have been won to it?

J.T. Yes; so that the preacher is enlarged inwardly. What I mean is this, Paul says that God had revealed His Son him, not to him, meaning there was room there; it is the idea of a vessel; there is such room within that God can operate in you and through you. The Son revealed in him, the believer is in the very centre of the vast system of blessing, which the gospel presents.

F.S.M. Was not the apostle Paul conveying the idea when he said, "For I am not ashamed of the glad tidings; for it is God's power to salvation, to every one that believes"? (Romans 1:16).

J.T. That is good. Do you present the gospel in this way?

F.S.M. One would like to give the impression every time that it is vast and wonderful to one's own soul.

J.T. That is the thing. In Romans the apostle begins, "Separated to God's glad tidings … concerning his Son". The Son of God is the centre, and theme of what is presented. Romans opens it up, but Ephesians completes it.

A.S.L. And Romans speaks of His being the Son of David; this involves the kingdom. It says here that "the kingdom of God has drawn nigh".

J.T. That is another thing; although God is referred to as King, it has Christ as Man in view, and David represented this. Hence Christ is said to have "come of David's seed according to flesh".

A.S.L. I was thinking too of the close of the Acts where Paul "remained two whole years in his own hired lodging, and received all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ", (Acts 28:30,31). I should like to hear a little on that.

J.T. The idea of the kingdom of God brings in the One who can administer it, and that necessitates the seed of David. God had come in in Christ for man's deliverance and blessing. The kingdom of God was there in the most tangible and practical way. The transfiguration in Mark is "the kingdom of God come in power".

A.S.L. So "Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead, of the seed of David, according to my glad tidings", (2 Timothy 2:8).

J.T. The gospel of Matthew enlarges on that side. Christ is the "root of David", which would be John's gospel; and the "offspring of David", which would be Matthew's gospel; but even in treating of Him as the offspring of David His Person is always guarded. The introduction of David in 1 Samuel is as of Jesse, following Ruth. If I go backward through Jesse I must get to the root, but the forward movement is towards the offspring. So I am perfectly balanced as to the Person, even viewing Him as the offspring of David, as the One who administers the kingdom. The "child ... born" is the "Mighty God", who governs "upon the throne of David", (Isaiah 9).

A.S.L. So he emphasizes the resurrection at the outset of Romans, and then again in Timothy, the sure mercies of David are in the risen Son of David.

J.T. That is it. He is "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", (Romans 1:4), but He is officially "our Lord"; this implies the kingdom.

A.S.L. I wanted some more help; you have been challenging some of us. If Paul preached the kingdom

of God, how would you sum up his preaching? You have the verse here, a remarkably simple gospel address. He says, "The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn nigh; repent and believe in the glad tidings". Is not the gospel that the kingdom of God has drawn nigh? That must be blessed glad tidings for men.

J.T. Quite. "The time is fulfilled"; that is the first thing, you understand the time. And then, "the kingdom of God has drawn nigh". It was there Christ. It is the kingdom of God; God was active in grace, active practically in the ministry of Christ. That is how I understand it.

E.J.McB. Would "the time is fulfilled" indicate that the time of the flesh was over, and that thus wilderness conditions had begun; and that in the kingdom of God drawn nigh there is an entirely new vista opened up, and then the outcome is you enter into the vast blessedness that is consequent on the testimony of all this?

J.T. Quite; the servant thus understands the time, in which he is serving and the light that governs it. The kingdom is God active in grace.

H.D'A.C. Really there in Christ's Person.

J.T. That is what I was trying to make clear, His ministry is the thing. Ministry is representative of God in some sense, or it is not anything. It is representative too of the time and the overtures of God to men; so that the Lord told the seventy to say to the cities visited, "The kingdom of God is come nigh to you", (Luke 10:9). It was operative in them. This involves the kind of person who is ministering.

E.J.McB. Is that why they were to take no resources, indicating that their resources were in what had drawn nigh?

J.T. Exactly; all was furnished in the kingdom God.

J.J. Would it be illustrated in 1 Kings 17? The widow thoroughly believed in Elijah at the end.

J.T. Exactly. Elijah had asserted the rights of God as operative in himself: "There shall not be dew these years, except by my word", (1 Kings 17:1). That was a very remarkable thing to say, and it is what the widow of Zarephath came to; she came to an apprehension of it in her own house. All were proving the effects of the drought, but she was proving support in it. Besides, her son was restored to life. How real the power of God was in the prophet!

Eu.R. Is your suggestion that if we are to be able to present the kingdom we need the Lord in His official character as Son of David, and that He puts the impression of Himself on our spirits as the Son of the Father's love? Much has to take place with us in the way of liberation before we can give souls the touch, and impress them with the substance of what is available.

J.T. Quite.

A.S.L. The kingdom of God was brought here and set forth in the Person and works of Christ; and those who through grace left everything and followed Him came into it and exercised the power of it; their preaching affected others similarly.

J.T. Quite; that is what came out in Acts 11. Through the preaching of those who were scattered they that believed were "added to the Lord", and they were to "abide with the Lord". All that proves they were really in the kingdom and that precedes our being brought into the church.

The next thing in our chapter is the Lord "walking by the sea of Galilee", verse 16. The Servant is walking and walking in a certain relation. It introduces the subject of the sea in this gospel, which perhaps may be opened up to us. I only refer to it here because of the Lord's walking by it, as if His service is to be in relation to it.

Ques. Does the sea refer to the gentiles?

J.T. I think we shall see in Mark that the bearing of

the sea is universal. There are other meanings to it, but there is a remarkable outlook world wide. There is the suggestion of territory beyond.

H.E. S. Is your thought that this glorious service is to be universal?

J.T. Yes. He walks by the sea, and that would tend to preclude at once undue, nationalism. That is the bearing of the sea. Here He is walking by it, a most interesting thing. Then, "He saw Simon, and Andrew, Simon's brother, casting out a net in the sea, for they were fishers. And Jesus said to them. Come after me, and I will make you become fishers of men", verses 16,17. I only thought we might notice the result of this walking, the attractiveness of the Lord as before them, having in mind that He would make them fishers of men. That is, the service is towards men.

P.L. Would the position in the end of Mark be in accordance with this walking by the sea?

J.T. Quite. "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation", (Mark 16:15). Going into the world implies that I go into a hostile scene, but I have the creation, in view in Mark.

Eu.R. Is it your thought that the attractiveness of the Lord was great enough to supersede the trawl nets and their fish?

J.T. Exactly, and I think the force of that comes in when the next two are called, that is, when you get the father and the servants.

Eu.R. How?

J.T. Because the great pull is seen when there is anything to be left of a social status in this world. It says of Simon and Andrew that they left their trawl nets, but to leave one's business is not quite the same thing as leaving your father and the servants. Many leave the trawl nets, but asset leave the father and the servants. I mean, they never give up what social status attaches to them, and that always is fly in the ointment.

Ques. Was that not true in Mark's own case when he sailed away to Cyprus?

J.T. Quite; the natural drew him. The business is easily given up by many of us, but when the father and the servants have to be left, that is the real test, and that is what you get in James and John. There is complete deliverance in the divine call, not only from the things of business but from the influence of family connections and all that goes with these.

R.B. So it says, "They went away after him".

J.T. That is good, meaning that the distance was definite.

Eu.R. I was thinking this cuts two ways. There might be incentive on the part of those who consider themselves in some lower status becoming equal to those above them.

J.T. That is important, because the Lord's service sometimes makes 'gentlemen' of us, but it was never intended to do that.

Eu.R. It brings us into a new thing, which is greater than all social distinction.

J.T. The idea was, they were not to give up their calling, they were to be fishers still, but simply to change the kind of fish they were looking for; they were to be "fishers of men".

Eu.R. This would make us simple as to the sphere in which God has set us in His governmental ordering.

J.T. The thing is to see the greatness of the levitical idea governing the believer in his service. He is greater than the distinctions that men pride themselves in, and that is what the Lord would impress on us in Luke, saying, "your names are written in heaven".

H.D'A.C. What is the difference between forsaking the father and the hired servants?

J.T. "Leaving their father Zebedee in the ship with the hired servants"; it is one idea. The father is left with the servants. It looks as if Zebedee had some little

distinction, having 'hired servants'. That John was known to the high priest would indicate this. The father is left with the servants; that is the position. You may enlarge this in modem times to any extent; the more the hired servants the greater the dignity. Can I leave that? Many have left the nets, but retain the social dignity.

Ques. Do you think the trawl nets would suggest the implements of business, the ability to do things?

J.T. Yes; especially as it says they were using them; they were actually engaged in their calling.

Eu.R. Is there importance in the fact that each of these men is called with a brother?

J.T. It is important to notice that. The family link is there, and one point would be that although there, it is to be superseded by the new order of things or merged in it. The next verse shews they have now entered into a new order of things. It says, not simply that He went, but "they go into Capernaum". That is, I belong to this new companionship and everything must be subservient to it.

Eu.R. So Capernaum is spoken of as being uniquely responsible because this wonderful service was carried on there.

J.T. They went into Capernaum five persons brought together under those extraordinary circumstances. Capernaum had now something that no other city ever had, that is, an order of things set up by the Lord Jesus, having as yet only four followers, but to be enlarged, so as to fill the universe. The greatest testimony was there.

J.O.S. Would the fact that the Lord saw them imply a secret history as you said?

J.T. No doubt He had watched, over them. There is nothing in connection with all our histories, back to our forefathers, that He has not taken notice of in calling us; He knows it all. Then it goes on, "And straightway on the sabbath be entered into the synagogue and taught. And they

were astonished at his doctrine". That is the position here; He was not only preaching but teaching. The evangelist certainly should be able to teach, and there should be something distinctive about it; it should not be merely theoretic. Then there is the power over evil, and then the healing of Peter's wife's mother; that is to say, the household of one of the servants is attended to, because that is very often a difficulty with us, that our households are deranged and the service is to that extent hindered and marred. But the Lord puts that right and she serves them. Then in chapter 2 it says, "He entered again into Capernaum"; 'again' meaning there is another phase of the testimony to be brought into Capernaum; so it is not now a question of overcoming the devil, but of what went on in the house. "He entered again into Capernaum after several days, and it was reported that he was at the house".

Ques. Why is it He here?

J.T. In the first visit they entered into Capernaum, and I think we have the idea that God has introduced a great system of things marked by teaching with power. But, after all, the Lord is the doer of what is done, and every true Levite recognizes that. Then "after several days" that has to be noted "it was reported that he was at the house". That is to say, there is no idea of advertising His coming. He is in the house and the report goes out. He is therefore not advertising before hand. What is done is as by Himself the disciples are not mentioned.

E.J.McB. J.N.D. gives a footnote indicating that He was 'at home'.

J.T. That would shew there was some convenient house there, and He was free in it. The fact that the roof was broken through without any murmurings would shew He had secured a footing there.

Rem. The Lord was living in the city at that time, (Matthew 4:13).

Eu.R. Would you suggest that is what we should have in our local conditions, room for the Lord to move in that way?

J.T. I should think so. "In the house" implies advantageous conditions, and so the friends of this impotent man had liberty to open the roof and let him down before the Lord. The point was to get him down there, and then we have the often noted transparency marking the whole operation, which is a very important thing in dealing with people in the house. All the circumstances are exposed nothing is hidden, because the bed on which he lay comes down.

Eu.R. So in gospel labours we should not be content merely to take the gospel to souls, but to get them into those conditions where they can get their impotency healed.

J.T. That is right, here it is not the gospel carried to the man, but the man carried to Christ.

E.J.McB. The thing seems to have been done by four, who would correspond with the four the Lord had already secured.

J.T. Quite. The testimony was thus in Capernaum in a new way house wise; there is freedom and the service is correspondingly effective. They "glorified God, saying. We never saw it thus", chapter 2:12.

THE ABUNDANCE OF THE SEAS (2)

Mark 3:7 - 18; Mark 4:1,2,35 - 41

J.T. We see from these passages the bearing of the sea in this gospel. In the previous chapter it says, "And he went out again by the sea, and all the crowd came to him, and he taught them", verse 13. Then in chapter 3, "And Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea", verse 7, and chapter 4 begins, "And again he began to teach by the sea. And a great crowd was gathered together to him, so that going on board ship he sat in the sea"; and then in the end of the chapter He crosses the sea "to the other side". Many thoughts enter into the sea as Scripture presents it, but this gospel stresses it as regards evangelical or levitical service. We have in the types a reference to those who "had knowledge of the sea" in Solomon's time, great wealth accruing from maritime expeditions. The sea suggests countries farther off and tends to remove insularity. Christians are not to be insular; island conditions tend to make us insular; whereas the sea suggests other lands and their wealth, so that maritime nations in the history of the world always had an advantage. I thought that that advantage should appear in a spiritual sense, for there are great varieties of wealth brought from overseas; Solomon understood that.

Eu.R. "Go into all the world", chapter 16:15; does that suggest the sea?

J.T. Quite. You get in the end of chapter 4 that the disciples were to go to the other side, whatever that may have been.

P.L. And would Simon being in the tanner's house "by the sea" connect with it, leading to the sheet let down from heaven?

J.T. That is really the link with the work among the gentiles in the Acts, so it was a question there of the word from heaven. What the angel said to Cornelius was

to send to one Simon, who was surnamed Peter, who was in the house of one by the sea. Peter is where the teaching of this gospel would put him to the test as to; whether he is to be governed by his natural links, as suggested in Simon, or whether he is to be governed by; his 'surname' at this juncture. It was a critical time, but the sequel shewed that the spiritual side connected with Peter predominated. Had he leaned toward the other, the Simon side, he would have allowed his natural feelings and prejudices and missed the import of the outlook he had in the house by the sea; but he went up to the housetop to pray; that was his salvation, so to speak; he was in the divine current for the moment. There is always a divine current, and it is a question of whether we are in it or not; a question of our state of soul, because there is always the mixed condition as indicated in 'Simon' and 'Peter'. So it is a question of our state of soul in crises, whether we are to be governed by the spiritual feature in us, or by the natural. Peter went up to the housetop to pray, and there he becomes in an ecstasy, shewing that the spiritual feature gained the day, and heaven greeted him, as it were. He said that the sheet "came even to me". On the housetop in prayer he was completely adjusted and brought into accord with God, with the universal testimony to the gentiles.

H.E.S. The Lord partook of the produce of the sea for food; is the thought that He would not only get His food from Israel but from what is universal?

J.T. I suppose so. The loaves and fishes combine the products of land and sea.

F.S.M. It is said in (2 Chronicles 8) that Huram's servants had knowledge of the sea and they brought four hundred and fifty talents of gold to king Solomon.

J.T. His was a maritime country and so had an advantage, and Solomon gained by it. The record of the queen of Sheba following immediately shews what is in

view. "She came from the ends of the earth", the Lord says.

P.L. And Solomon referred to the virtuous woman as being "like the merchants' ships: she bringeth her food from afar", (Proverbs 31:14).

J.T. That is good; and so the psalmist said, "Yonder is the great and wide sea: therein are moving things innumerable, living creatures small and great" that is potential wealth "There go the ships", (Psalm 104:25). The ships are the means of communication, and those who have the knowledge of the sea manage them, hence the rich results.

H.H. I suppose Paul in that sense had travelled the sea a good deal; he spoke of where he had gone preaching the kingdom of God. That is the idea morally.

J.T. Exactly. The tendency to insularity and nationalism is very great with us, and it militates against the dispensation. It has thus to be discerned and judged, so that we may be with God. It is not in keeping with the present time. God will eventually revert to the national thought. The wise men from the east respected this side of things. They inquired for Him who was born "King of the Jews"; that was right. They saw His star in the east, indicating what will obtain when the favoured nation of God will be respected by other nations; but evangelical principles break down insularity; the sea shore makes for universality; not only is the need of distant nations considered, but also the wealth that is available in them.

M.W.B. Would you say a word as to the blending of the universal thought you are pressing now with submission to the governmental ordering of God? I was thinking of Acts 16, the education of the apostle, forbidden in one place and suffered not in another.

J.T. That is another and important consideration. God establishes the universal principle in the sheet let down from heaven knit at the four comers, but then

another thing is, He knows where the wealth is. Solomon's ships undoubtedly were guided by the knowledge of where the gold was. All the governmental dealings of God with the race have had in view the present rime, that is, the universal testimony that He intended to render; so that the next thing is, where is the needed wealth? God knows, so that the Spirit of Jesus suffered not Paul and his fellow workers to go into Bithynia. The man from Macedonia was calling them; that was the guide. Evidently the wealth that God had in mind for this dispensation lay in the west, not in the east. I suppose the magi indicate that in the future the wealth will lie in the east, the west will have had its day.

M.W.B. I was wondering whether we should not have to bear both thoughts in mind in our own movements and prayers, the one not to be in any way lost sight of, yet the other to have a governing element in it.

J.T. We must have the thought of the dispensation clearly in our minds, that it is universal, and has all men in view. Then you recognize that God has a perfect knowledge of where the wealth is, and that He would have it now, as Solomon did. God knew that in His governmental dealings the west would afford a better field for the church than the east; that conditions in the east did not afford the same material for the gospel, having the church in view. But the "everlasting gospel" will undoubtedly reach out towards them.

Eu.R. So Peter in preaching says, "But in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him". (Acts 10:35); that is what was coming into view. And he says of the Lord there, "He is Lord of all things", (Acts 10:36).

J.T. Cornelius clearly indicates the part of the race that God had in view for the gospel in this dispensation, that is, the race of Japheth It was undoubtedly that part of the race He had mainly in view for the gospel, and to take the church out of it. Of course the work began

with the Jews, but it did not continue with them, (Acts 28:28).

J.J. Would Issachar and Zebulun come into the thought in Mark in connection with the sea? "For they will suck the abundance of the seas, and the hidden treasures of the sand", (Deuteronomy 33:19).

J.T. They represent what we are speaking of. Jonah went in the wrong direction; he was premature. God had sent him to the east and he failed in it, but he went afterwards.

Ques. Could you illustrate insularity of outlook for us today?

J.T. Well, Australia, is a very good example.

Ques. In what way?

J.T. It is so far away and isolated. Distance from other saints greatly tends to insularity, and has to be watched. I have noticed it also on the Pacific coast of America. The saints there are so far away that they tend to lose sight of what God is doing generally. I do not mean to be personal, but to bring out what would apply to any position separated by great distance from the generality of the saints. I am sure you must feel that out there.

Rem. I thought perhaps you were thinking of servants of God who do not take account of the greatness of the field.

J.T. That is also true; and the tendency in this country would be centralization or metropolitanism, the feeling that things go out from a position; whereas the sea in these scriptures would habituate the mind to the thought that there are other parts, and those other parts afford spiritual wealth also.

Eu.R. This tendency to be insular may apply to saints in any locality. We all need to have our hearts exercised as to the universal movements of the Lord.

J.T. Yes; to "go over to the other side". That is the

idea, because there is something perhaps which we never thought of on the other side.

P.L. You get this principle of isolation exposing to danger in relation to the people who were dwelling at Laish, Judges 18. They were "dwelling securely, after the manner of the Zidonians, quiet and secure; and no one was in the land who possessed authority, that might put them to shame in anything; and they were far from the Zidonians, and had nothing to do with any man", verse 7.

J.T. Exactly; and therefore they were exposed and were overcome. That is very suggestive, because there is strength in the universal position.

E.J.McB. Does the Lord here withdraw from where His rights as the Lord of the sabbath had been refused?

J.T. Quite. You see the opposition had arisen, and that leads us back to the end of chapter 2, and we see what accrued from this service by the sea. It says, "And he went out again by the sea, and all the crowd came to him, and he taught them. And passing by, he saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting at the tax-office, and says to him. Follow me". And Levi followed Him, and He sat in his house.

M.W.B. You mentioned this morning something about teaching; would you say a little as to the idea of teaching in connection with the preaching.

J.T. Teaching is a prominent feature in Mark. It is in all the gospels, but particularly here; it is an enforcement of things by power. People hear things in the preaching, but what do they mean? what is the moral force of them? You see it in a most striking manner at Ephesus, where the apostle separated the disciples from the synagogue into the school of one Tyrannus, leading up to the church. It is a course, and it is not optional. The name of the man who owned the school would indicate there was to be government and obligation to it; that is to say, the teaching is imperative. We must be

taught, not only listen to things, but have things forced into the mind. It is said that the apostle reasoned with them over a period of time in that school; the truth would be forced into minds on account of its moral value.

G.W.W. Do you mean that if a preacher of the gospel states facts and presses them, he should be prepared to shew his hearers their moral force?

J.T. Yes. The apostle in the epistle that sets out the gospel stresses the idea of teaching: "Ye ... have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which ye were instructed", (Romans 6:17). I believe there is great want of teaching, that is to say, the forcing of the truth into the minds of believers, shewing the moral value of it. That is particularly needed.

H.D'A.C. They continued in the teaching of the apostles. Acts 2:42.

J.T. There it is exactly.

J.J. Do you connect the sea with the epistle to the Romans?

J.T. Well, yes. The apostle had never been to Rome; it was overseas for him; but he knew they had obeyed from the heart the form of teaching delivered to them, not only obeyed the gospel, but the form of teaching.

Now, Levi seems to yield more than any of the disciples so far. When believers begin to yield the desired fruit the idea of the bridegroom fits in. The Lord alludes to the bridechamber and the bridegroom indicating that he was already obtaining something corresponding with these from His sowing. That is the thing to be looked for. He does not yet speak of the bride, but there was something that accrued to the Lord, which led Him to speak of the bridegroom. It says of Levi that the Lord "lay at table in his house"; and "many tax-gatherers and they were many, and they followed him". There was much for Him there.

R.B. Is the point you are making that Levi was to be

called from taxing the wealth of the nation to go in for gathering the wealth of the sea?

J.T. Pretty much, and that there was already a yield for Christ in him, and in connection with him. The many following Him was the evidence of a work of God.

P.L. Does that connect with Romans 7? "Married to another ... that we should bring forth fruit unto God". Is that the crop coming up, something for the Bridegroom?

J.T. Quite. As soon as you begin to feel a little joy in your work as you see some fruit, think what must it be to Christ! Repentance in a man's soul that is something to Him. When a man is so delivered by the gospel that he leaves his money and desk and opens up his house to Christ, and brings in the tax-gatherers and sinners and sets them down there, the Lord's heart is touched. If you go about the world and see the little gatherings, you understand what wealth there is in them, but what must it be to Christ when He sees the affections of the saints drawn out to Him and to one another! That is the idea really of the church. It is not named, but the idea of the bridegroom already comes out and the joy He had, and so He refers to Himself in this way.

M.W.B. Should that feeling move us in our levitical service, the feeling of what there can be gathered for Christ's joy?

J.T. Yes. I think that is really how you get at, the church, in seeing what it is to Christ.

H.D'A.C. Did Levi get a great impression as to teaching, and did it not come out in his gospel in the way he speaks of Christ and His teaching?

J.T. I am sure he did. The persons he invited to his house implied disregard for Jewish prejudices, and this marks his (Matthew's) gospel.

Jos.S. I thought there were two lines of teaching, one in relation to God's attitude toward men, and the other in relation to His thoughts for the saints.

J.T. Well, I am sure that is right.

Jos.S. You said this morning that the evangelist should teach. I can understand teaching in connection with God's attitude toward men, but you would hardly open up God's thoughts in regard of the church so much in the gospel preaching, would you?

J.T. No; but I think you lead on to it; You see in the way that Saul was converted how the work is to be done. You do a bit. The Lord did a bit Himself (of course He does everything). He converted him, but then He says, "Rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do", (Acts 9:6). What the Lord did was to prepare the subject for Ananias' work; that is, you pass the convert on to the next stage, so to speak, and there is a suited worker. In what you preach you convey the thought in the teaching, and the convert will feel the need of this and accept it as available.

J.O.S. The Lord taught the disciples (Mark 8:31) that He must be rejected and suffer many thing would that be the evangelist's work?

J.T. Teaching those things is remarkable. I should not like to divide very much, but only suggest the general thought of teaching. The Lord taught them here by the sea, and then Levi comes in, as was pointed out. What a teacher he became, how thoroughly adjusting his gospel is for any who are holding to national religion and the like!

D.L.H. Is there not always the thought of the mystery of the gospel? I mean, attached to the preaching of the gospel, there is the mystery in view in the background.

J.T. It is formally introduced at the end of Romans.

H.P.W. Is your thought that you would like to leave a man with the impression that there is a lot beyond what you have told him?

J.T. That is the thing; and that there are others capable of leading him on. You may not be able to lead him very far, but the Lord has provided for it. So you

get in Colossians, which is on the up line, "Teaching ... to ... present every man perfect in Christ".

Ques. Then, when the Lord said to Saul, "Why persecutest thou me?" do you think there was something beyond, in the words that he would take to heart in relation to the church?

J.T. Quite; that would be opened up to him later. He found it in Ananias. The Lord made a point that the first Christian Saul would meet should rightly represent Him. In view of young people coming on amongst us, who have heard the gospel and believed and confessed the Lord, there is a great shortage, of the Ananias spirit. The next thing needed is the person who can rightly lay his hands on that young man or young woman who is seeking the way. Ananias went and laid his hands upon Saul. The Lord had been to him before that, so they were the hands of one who represented the Lord. He says, "The Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou earnest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight", (Acts 9:17). That was the thing, and he says, "Saul, brother". That is, the laying of the hands on a convert would indicate that you are linking him on with what is there. It is an immense thing to convey to a person just converted that he is coming into something that is already victorious; that has been and will be victorious; that he is not coming into anything that will be a disadvantage to him, but that will be immensely advantageous to him. Those hands that are laid on him ought to convey something of all this.

E.J.McB. We want to know like Ananias what the Lord's thoughts in regard of that case were.

J.T. Quite. The Lord is very particular as to the first hand that is laid upon the convert, because that hand will impress him. "Why persecutest thou me?" Saul had had to do with such hands as that; they had not resisted him; he dragged them out of houses and before the tribunals, but they were not resisting hands, they

were subject, accepting the sufferings like their Master. "He doth not resist you", it says. That is the kind of thing Saul had met with in the saints when he persecuted them, and now he is meeting the same thing in Ananias, and that is what the Lord would convey to him, that he is coming into that. It is the 'me' the Lord spoke of to Saul.

H.D'A.C. That is, the hand of the preacher and also the hand of a disciple.

Eu.R. In all his work the servant stands in relation to the joy of the Bridegroom.

J.T. That is the idea. Every bit of fruit for Christ from your ministry is to add to the joy of the Bridegroom; it is a very fine thought not yet the bride. John heard the voice of the Bridegroom, but here the Lord speaks about Himself in that way, and that it was not a time for fasting. He would impress us with the idea of the joy that is in the results of the service.

F.S.M. Do you think that kind of consolidating work that Ananias did would be very largely personal work and might be done, and often is done, by spiritual sisters?

J.T. Exactly; so that the young believer should be impressed with the spirit of the church. There is mothering and this reflects "Jerusalem above", (Galatians 4:26).

Eu.R. So Matthew records that it was for "joy of it" (the 'treasure') that the Lord sold all that He had and bought the field.

J.T. You will observe there that the Lord spoke the parables outside; but the three closing similes of the kingdom, referring to the church, are not called parables because they are all inside the house; it is an important thing that as soon as one is really converted to God he belongs inside and you want to bring, him inside. It is no longer parabolic ministry, but direct ministry, and the first thing is the joy the treasure occasioned. The New Translation omits 'again' in the second set of similes (Matthew 13:44); they are not a continuation of the four

spoken outside. They are said to those inside, and it is a question of the Lord opening up what the treasure and the pearl are to Him.

Eu.R. So if persons are rightly converted and really acknowledge the redemptive rights of the Lord individually, they should be prepared immediately for the thoughts of the assembly.

J.T. Quite. As has just been remarked, the idea of the assembly is conveyed in the gospel, and the first hand that touches the convert afterwards should convey the spirit of the assembly.

Rem. That would be according to what the apostle Paul had in mind when he spoke of the "glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God".

H.E.S. Is it your thought that if the Lord gets a place in my house and circumstances, I am to be brought into the light of the joy it is to Him?

J.T. That is the point. You get here the idea of the bridechamber and the bridegroom coming in, and that leads on to the new cloth and the new bottles.

J.C.S. Would you say that the joy in any service is not what is ministered to you, but what it is to Christ?

J.T. Exactly; and I think we also should look for joy. Of course levitical work is heavy work; but it is not drudgery. You come into the joy of the thing, as working finder, the Lord.

P.L. So there are singing levites as well as carrying ones, the same persons, of course.

J.T. Exactly. There were four thousand of them in David's time.

P.L. Philippians would develop that: "Rejoice in the Lord always: again I will say. Rejoice", chapter 4:4.

D.L.H. What about "Then shall they fast in those days"?

J.T. The Lord there is emphasising the change when the Bridegroom is taken away. That would be a dispensational touch.

D.L.H. But does not that apply to the moment in which we are, in a certain sense?

J.T. I think here it alludes to the Jewish position; the disciples would be left there as He was taken. But christianity (in which we are) is another thing, and could not fit in there -- into a system of legal, requirements. Hence what follows as to new cloth and new bottles. We come into the joy of the Bridegroom now. Fasting is, of course, right now, but the Lord treats of it here in the setting in which it came up. It was a question of what the disciples of John and those of the Pharisees were doing.

Eu.R. What did you mean when you said that a young convert should be impressed with the fact that he is coming into what is victorious?

J.T. That is what the church is in principle. "This is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith", (1 John 5:4). That is what he is coming into.

Eu.R. Externally it does not look quite like that.

J.T. Well, that may be, but it is really so. There is nothing else victorious in the whole world, however little it may be. There is nothing lost, that is the principle. Of course, the individual acquires the victory through believing that "Jesus is the Son of God".

Ques. Would you mind enlarging a little on the thought of laying on the hands as with Ananias?

J.T. Well it is committal, a link formed with the believer. The saints commit themselves to him, but in the way of help, because Saul was to get help. His eyes were to be opened, and he was to get the Holy Spirit. It was an immense thing, and he was greeted accordingly: "Saul, brother".

J.C.S. Would you say that what he found in Damascus corresponded with the light that shone out of heaven?

J.T. It corresponded with what he met in Christ, that is the idea. .

J.J. Is not the calling of the twelve in Mark especially in relation to what is victorious? (chapter 3).

J.T. Yes, following the teaching in the end of chapter 2 you see how the disciples came into a state of liberty It laid hold of them in the Lord's action in going through the cornfields. It says, "And it came to pass that he went on the sabbath through the cornfields; and his disciples began to walk on, plucking the ears". That is, they did more than He did. It is an indication to us how He leads in the way of liberty, how you acquire the spirit of nothing what He does. It is the liberty where with He sets free.

Eu.R. What do the first two verses of chapter 4 suggest, sitting by the sea and teaching, and then the crowd close to the sea?

J.T. Now you see He is definitely moving out, "And again he began to teach by the sea", but before that you have the appointment of the twelve. You will observe He separated the disciples in chapter 3:7, "Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea". That is consequent upon the murderous attitude of the religious leaders; very much like Paul separating the disciples at Ephesus, but here instead of separating to the school of Tyrannus, He separates them to the sea, as if He would not find the wealth among the Jews but would go further afield, among the gentiles. And, therefore. He appoints the twelve. "And he goes up into the mountain, and calls whom he himself would, and they went to him. And he appointed twelve that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach, and to have power to heal diseases, and to cast out demons", chapter 3: 13 - 15. Now the position is clearly defined. The murderous attitude of the Jewish leaders led Him to withdraw with His disciples. The position is very clear, but then the power is not diminished. He still goes on casting out demons and so forth, and then, "He goes up into the mountain, and calls whom he himself would".

He is now by the sea, the source of wealth, and He would appoint those whom He would use in the work in the wide area in view.

H.E.S. Is He like David as rejected selecting the mighty men of his kingdom? The Lord is making provision here for the moment of His absence.

J.T. Exactly; and that they should be representatives too, thus they should be with Him on the mount.

M.W.B. There are three spheres spoken of: the house, the synagogue, and the sea. Would you say a word as to the difference?

J.T. The house suggests the family principle. It has a great place in the gospels, more especially in Matthew than in Mark but it has a place here. It is where the Lord is free; it is in the house He explains things; and in chapter 2 He heals the paralytic in the house. I think the house suggests these congenial spheres that we hope to find in our service; because Mark contemplates sympathy springing up as we go on in our service; an environment characterized by this, which is a great thing.

P.L. So Paul takes courage when he sees the brethren at Appii Forum.

J.T. Quite. Then the synagogue represents the current recognized religion, but dominated by evil. That is another thing that is very sorrowful. Then the sea, is to give you room; it is the wideness of the field, the great possibilities there are for fruit, for results from the service of the gospel.

Eu.R. There is necessity for the withdrawal on our part, owing to the tendency to narrow up our affections.

J.T. That is what you see. The Lord withdrew with His disciples, but He was not narrowed. The tendency is to become narrow, to accept the smallness, and our testimony loses power and really ceases to be anything for God. But we should never lose sight of the dispensation in principle, and that is what is taught

here: "Jesus withdrew with his disciples to the sea", and then the power is still apparent even in greater measure, so that the demons, falling down before Him, acknowledge Him to be the Son of God. But He would not take any testimony from them; the testimony must be from accredited witnesses, from persons who are with Him, which is very touching. "He ... calls whom he himself would ... that they might be with him, and that he might send them to preach, and to have power to heal diseases, and to cast out demons", verses 13 - 15.

J.H.B. After the sea He goes up into the mountain; what would that represent?

J.T. I think it is moral elevation. We have the mountain idea much more in Matthew than here. In Matthew there are six mountains seven really, but six on which the Lord definitely operates, which may be likened to that which is round about Jerusalem; but in Mark it is the moral elevation that should mark the ministry. You do not get that ministry from the schools, you get it on the principle of moral elevation; for there could be no companionship with Christ save as in elevation from this world.

H.E.S. Is your thought that the Lord does not receive witness from accredited religion because there was the unclean spirit connected with it, but He receives witness from His own accredited witnesses?

J.T. That is right. The whole hierarchical system is set aside; it is not on that principle. He does not accept witness from such; this chapter shews us the principle on which He witnesses, that is, through persons that are morally elevated: "He ... calls whom he himself would". It is His sovereign choice, and they are with Him, and He names every one of them; it is one by one; the conjunction separates them here in every case. It is not by 'twos', as in Matthew.

H.E.S. So following on the thought of the sea, the Lord is sovereign both with regard to persons and places.

Question, Is the moral thought seen in the fact that the word 'apostles' is omitted here?

J.T. That is more in Luke, presenting the idea of authority. Here it is a question of the moral power the disciples have; they are qualified as indicated in this chapter. You are called out, separated, withdrawn to the sea from a state of things which although religious is murderous.

J.J. With regard to the names, why does He surname the three? They were the three always with Him.

J.T. It helps us as to selection, that the Lord always reserves the right to have some one or two or three; special ones; it is His privilege. David had his first three, hone of the others attained to them, and these are the first three in the Lord's selection. These represent the best of what He had, and you find them with Him on all special occasions. That is His own sovereign right and we must not quarrel with it. But there is something in those three men that gives them superiority over the others; of this we may be sure, for with the Lord there is a moral basis for everything.

J.C. It is in the interests of the saints to accept His selection and not to dispute it.

J.T. Yes. Paul said, "That by me the preaching might be fully known", (2 Timothy 4:17); the Lord would not have it otherwise. I am sure many of the saints said there were people who could preach better than Paul, but the Lord would have the preaching known through him: "That by me the preaching might be fully known".

H.E.S. Is that why in every case Peter is mentioned first?

J.T. That is the reason. In Matthew it is formally stated that he is first: "first, Simon, who was called Peter", chapter 10:2.

J.C.S. Would you say that results always justified the Lord's selection?

J.T. Exactly. You see how Peter shone in the

Acts. And when God began to move towards the gentiles he was moving too, as we have seen.

Ques. Why did the Lord appoint a Judas?

J.T. That is another matter. It brings out what the Old Testament really ended up with. Even the, ministry of Christ ended up with a broken state of things, "the eleven". It is to shew that man in the most favourable circumstances broke down. It awaited Christianity and the coming of the Spirit for the perfect state of things; you never could have it before that.

Eu.R. After the Lord made this proposal, "Let us go over to the other side", it says, "They take him with them, as he was, in the ship". What are we to learn from that?

J.T. That shews they were content with Him as He was. Many of those abroad today are not content with the Christ of the gospels. He is too small a Man for them, and they try to add to Him in one way or another; but the humble believer accepts Him as He is. It is the humble Christ as He is; and accepting Him as He is means we are as He is; "As he is, so are we in this world".

Eu.R. It was a very beautiful answer to His choosing them that they might be with Him.

Ques. Have you in mind that the teaching by the sea prepares the way to go to sea?

J.T. Yes. At the beginning of the chapter it says, "And again he began to teach by the sea", shewing that He is going back to the idea; He had not completed it. He is finishing the thing. "And a great crowd was gathered together to him, so that going on board ship he sat in the sea, and all the crowd were close to the sea on the land". Now He is in the sea. If I am to have knowledge of the sea, I have to know Him in the sea.

Rem. It is progressive in that way; the next step is He walks on it, chapter 6:48.

J.T. Quite; so the knowledge of the sea must be acquired from Christ. I suppose in the types the first

great knowledge of the sea is the crossing of the Red Sea; they went right through. No people ever had such an experience of the sea as they did. The ark was not there yet, but the bottom of the sea was seen, and the wall of water on either side. They could see the character of the thing as they went through it, and we may say Christ went through that here.

Ques. Would the knowledge of the Lord in the sea take the place of the trawl-nets? It was remarked this morning that they left the trawl-nets.

J.T. You see here how He acted in the sea. Later He directs them where to cast the net, shewing that He knew where the fish were. Here it is not that, it is the Lord in the sea and teaching there, and then, as has been remarked, to see Him walking on it. That is how we get the knowledge of the sea.

R.B. Would you say a word as to what the ship stands for? You have spoken of the sea, and the house, and the synagogue, what does the ship stand for?

J.T. It is the means of using the sea. In Mark it is the means of getting the gain of it.

H.D'A.C. "They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of Jehovah, and his wonders in the deep", (Psalm 107:23,24), not those who live by the sea-side merely. They have a much larger idea.

J.T. That is good. That is, you can go because the ships go; there is a means of going.

Ques. Would it convey the idea of spiritual commerce, in that way? You spoke of it this morning. It says "that a little ship should wait upon him"; what had you in mind in regard to that? Is it not the first reference to the ship, and does it suggest something coming into view by way of spiritual commerce?

J.T. It is that we may use the sea. The ship continues the idea here of reaching the wealth that is beyond; that is the idea.

Remark, I had in mind your quotation, "There go the ships".

J.T. Exactly. Who that lives within these shores does not know that the wealth of this country is largely built up by the use of ships? It is the means by which it acquired power and wealth in the world. And so, spiritually, ships are the means of acquiring wealth. So you get a little ship waiting upon Him, and then in chapter 4, "Going on board ship", that is a larger idea. Then in the end of that chapter it says, "Let us go over to the other side: and having sent away the crowd, they take him with them, as he was, in the ship". They are doing it. I take it now they are acquiring knowledge of the sea, because they take Him in it. That would shew they assumed to be able to navigate they had precious cargo surely!

R.B. Then would the ship suggest opportunities may have had for going down to the sea?

J.T. That is the idea. "There go the ships", it says in the psalm. Well, it is a good thing to get on board.

J.J. The verse you quote out of Psalm 104 immediately goes on to say, "There that leviathan, which thou hast formed to play therein". I suppose in crossing the sea here, the leviathan was playing and seeking to swamp this ship.

J.T. But there are other things there beside him, "moving things innumerable, living creatures small and great". That is it, the wealth that is there its innumerable character. The Lord knows where they are, He alone knows the paths of the sea. That is a remarkable thing; He knows the paths of it.

P.L. "The way of a ship in the midst of the sea", (Proverbs 30:19).

Eu.R. Would these fishers of men suggest those who can operate in the sea and secure material for the assembly?

J.T. Quite. They are learning now in that they take Him in the ship, that is, they had precious cargo, as remarked; there is that idea to be continued.

W.C. What bearing would Jonah's education have in relation to what is before us? He was a preacher.

J.T. That opens up a wide subject; shewing what the wealth of the sea is, the moving things innumerable; what God has there, and how at His bidding they are. He prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. I believe in that you have indicated the right of way God has in at His bidding to do His will. Therefore, if Jonah were not carrying out the will of God in going to Tarshish, when he gets into the fish's belly every movement that fish made was under, divine command. There was a living creature entirely under the divine will, and that be a never to be forgotten lesson for Jonah. The fish was doing His will, "and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land". What a wonderful process went on in Jonah's soul in that fish, and what a composition he made there! How God came into his soul!

R.G.H. How do you regard the "other little ships" that went with the Lord?

J.T. It is to be noted they are "with Him"; they are not operating in competition.

R.G.H. What is the practical bearing of that today?

J.T. A fleet of ships is a great thing; Solomon had a fleet; the other ships here suggest that idea.

F.H.B. It does not say that the storm came down on any of those ships.

J.T. It says, "And there comes a violent gust of wind, and the waves beat into the ship", as if the enemy was directly against Christ.

M.W.B. The first movements of life in Genesis 1 are connected with the sea; the "swarms of living souls" implying immense wealth, and an allusion to an area of later sovereign movements of God.

J.T. That is very interesting indeed, and sheds light on what we are speaking about.

F.I. Going back to what you said with regard to the insular position, this fleet of ships would be valuable not only to take exports but to bring imports.

J.T. That would maintain balance!

E.J.McB. Would Jonah's fish carry an element of instruction for him in view of his mission to the gentile city, that God had His reserves in the sea?

J.T. Nineveh really is the same idea from the standpoint of what we are speaking of; and so every movement of that fish spelt the will of God, which Jonah had been disregarding. He might expect that in Nineveh, and that is exactly what he found when he went there; they put sackcloth not only on themselves but on their beasts. It is the same idea that the living creatures, whether on the land or in the sea, are to do the will of God. The Ninevites had the idea; no doubt Jonah conveyed to them the impression of where he had been. There were living creatures in the sea, but also on the land, and the last word in Jonah is 'cattle'. It agrees with what is in mind in this gospel.

J.J. In Matthew 17 there was one fish, but it was useful to the Lord as containing the needed money.

M.W.B. With regard to the universal thought you are pressing and the avoidance of insularity, would there be any connection between the levites in Joshua and the forty-eight cities in that connection?

J.T. Yes; the influence of the levites was intended to be universal. I suppose the numeral would denote that, twelve times four. It is the administration of that benign or heavenly influence universally.

H.E.S. Would not the service of the Son of God produce the will of God universally?

J.T. That is what is in view in this gospel, the creation. It is a very striking thing. "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation",

shewing that the whole creation is to be secured for God.

Eu.R. What are we to learn from the expression, "The wind and the sea obey him"?

J.T. That is another thing. In these pursuits we cannot hope to escape the power of Satan; so whilst on the one hand the sea indicates what is beyond in the way of wealth, it also denotes an element that Satan can act upon. Leviathan is there. God in the book of Job and the Psalms calls attention to him. The sea is an element on which Satan can act. It is not simply here that "the wind was contrary", as in Matthew, but there was "a violent gust of wind". That is, it was a satanic action, a special attack against Christ. Hence the importance of having a knowledge of the sea to contend against all this.

Rem. The apostle at Athens is an example of one who had a knowledge of the sea -- the way in which he could use the word in such circumstances.

D.L.H. The apostle says, "Unless these abide in the ship ye cannot be saved", (Acts 27:31); if all were to be preserved those who had a knowledge of the sea must keep in the ship.

J.T. That is the idea. They were the mariners and they had a knowledge of the sea. These are the ones we need, but in Acts 27 they were not true mariners. They were not rightly concerned about the safety of their ship and the cargo.

D.L.H. I was wondering whether there was any spiritual application in view of the wrecked and ruined state of things in which the church is in these days?

J.T. What comes out in that passage is the position that Paul acquired on board the ship. The history of the church is in view. For the persons reaching land, all hinged on what Paul said; he had said, "Unless these abide in the ship ye cannot be saved". It meant they had to listen to Paul. The shipwreck took place because they

had failed to listen to him, but now Paul is getting a hearing and all the persons reached land.

Ques. Have we not known in the history of the testimony those who have left the ship under a pretext?

J.T. I am sure many have, and at what consequent loss too. The point is to listen to Paul; that is the word today. Lydia had her heart opened to listen to Paul.

A.M. "Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him. What doest thou?" (Ecclesiastes 8:4).

Eu.R. It was the word of the King here saying, "Silence; be mute".

J.T. I think it is more than the word of a king; it is the word of the creator. His glory shines in this incident.

J.J. And yet He is seen asleep -- beautiful sight!

J.T. Wonderful.

THE ABUNDANCE OF THE SEAS (3)

Mark 5:21 - 43; Mark 6:30 - 56

J.T. Up to yesterday afternoon we were dwelling on the Lord's service by the sea. It was observed that the Lord's service in this gospel is particularly set in relation to it; having the sea in the centre as affording an opportunity for the principle indicated in it to be emphasised; so that the end of chapter 4 shews that the disciples were already acquiring a knowledge of the sea. The references to the Old Testament helped us as to the use of ships so that the wealth of the seas should be acquired. The end of chapter 4 shews that the Lord having been taken by the disciples "as he was, in the ship" proved His superiority to the element of opposition that might be expected to arise; for whilst the sea denotes the area of the gospel, and the divine sowing, as in chapter 4, it also suggests an area in which Satan has power.

F.H.B. Would it be well, for those not here yesterday, to say a word as to what the sea represents in this gospel?

J.T. What has come before us is that it primarily suggests the area whence divine wealth is to be drawn; so that the disciples are informed they are to be made fishers of men. That gives an indication at once of what the figure suggests.

F.H.B. What was universal in contrast to what might be insular -- the widest aspect of the service.

J.T. Quite. Now we see that the apostles are actually on the sea. The Lord began in chapter 4 by sitting in it, and as in the boat speaking the parable of the sower, this meaning that God would sow in that area, and that there would be the good ground. That is the principle of sovereign preparation; that God knows the ground. He knows the area, and prepares beforehand the good ground, so that there may be fruit. It brings in the sovereignty of God, and the perfect knowledge He has of the parts in which the gospel is to be proclaimed.

Eu.R. And the yield is encouraging in this gospel.

J.T. I think we shall see how the wealth of the seas, so to speak, is in view from chapter 5 to the end of chapter 7.

Eu.R. It is not a diminishing yield here, but thirty, sixty and a hundred.

J.T. That should stimulate us, that we may always hope for better results. It keeps us from discouragement. So we find in this first incident in chapter 5 that the result though not large was very excellent in quality one person in the whole country. It is in regard of a man representing the power of Satan, not now operating on the sea, but actually in the man; shewing that the material with which God is ready to deal is the very worst, possible, as we might say. The most difficult case imaginable is this man, as if God would shew that He does not take the easiest way. He does not seek out the people that are comparatively immune from satanic power, because there are grades in this respect, but He begins to meet the enemy in his stronghold. As in the case of Saul of Tarsus, He takes the most difficult case to shew the possible effect of the power of the ministry, because that is the point in Mark. The official idea of apostleship is not so much in evidence as the moral power in the ministers. You do not need to emphasise the official side if the actual power is there. It is a question of what is done, and nobody can dispute it.

H.E. S. Is the central point in Mark that the kingdom of God has come with power?

J.T. That is how it is presented in chapter 9, as we shall see; that is "the kingdom of God come in power", and it is seen here in chapter 5 in the first great yield in Decapolis, that is, as passing over to the other side, which shews the idea of going overseas. The position is difficult, the soil is hard; it was a region of ten cities shewing the advantage that cities afford to Satan -- the influence of cities. We were speaking about the cities of

the Levites, they were over against Decapolis. The dries of the levites are necessary for God; but these cities, as the world's cities do, afford power to Satan. But the man is completely delivered and wished to be with the Lord. He is found "sitting, and clothed and in his right mind", and that is evidently the first great yield that we want -- the man representing the intelligence and power needed for the testimony.

J.C.S. Would you say the power demonstrated in dealing with this man shewed what the Lord could do with any case?

J.T. That is the idea. So, in the type, Moses is directed as Pharaoh goes out to the water to go and take his stand in front of him. That is, in the service we do not seek the weak subjects, because God would shew the superiority of His power to all that is of the devil: "Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world", (1 John 4:4). Moses stands in front of him; that is, you confront the whole power of the world in the testimony.

E.M. Would there be an illustration in the rod becoming a serpent and then being taken up by the hand of Moses, that satanic power would be dealt with?

J.T. Quite. It was taken back; the rod became a symbol of Moses' power; shewing how the instrument is wrested from the enemy to be used against him.

Eu.R. In the christian economy God's thought is to have the levitical cities now in the midst of man's cities.

J.T. That is where God is setting His testimony -- in the cities, according to Proverbs and the Acts.

Eu.R. So by the operation of the Lord each one needs to be withdrawn from whatever may have influenced him or her as in the life of that city, and come into this new thing, which God has used in testimony in that city.

J.T. Quite; the rod became a serpent on the ground and Moses fled from it. It was the power of Satan in man, but he takes it back by the tail, which indicates

what is meant. The idea of man is taken up, but man who had been under satanic power, now in God's hand for service. That is the idea of this gospel; it is the "kingdom of God come in power", so that the convert is in the Lord's hands. He can so trust him that He leaves him behind where there is no protection at all for him, not even other saints -- a man alone in that land of Satan's power. The Lord can trust him there, and that indicates what the yield means, what there is for God in those overseas operations.

H.E.S. And is the fact that the yield increases in Mark's gospel suggestive that the closing days will be the best?

J.T. At any rate, in quality. You would hope for that, and I am sure we should aim at quality whilst having quantity also in view. What you get in Solomon's overseas expeditions was what was for God, that is, gold. The volume of gold is what is emphasised (1 Kings 9:28), and then the queen of Sheba symbolising the thing in persons, that she came herself in intelligence, knowing to what she was coming.

J.J. What was in your mind about Proverbs in mentioning that book?

J.T. Wisdom takes her stand in the chief places of concourse where people are. That is where the testimony is rendered.

Ques. Would sitting, clothed and sensible, shew the quality?

J.T. Yes; that is the kind of thing from the man's side. What you want in a man is just those three things, that he is sitting and clothed and in his right mind. That is the idea of the rod brought back and held in the hand, as the symbol of divine authority, but divine authority used in one who had been under the power of Satan.

Eu.R. So the apostle says to the saints at Corinth, "Such were some of you"; he reminds them whence they had come.

J.C.S. The power that dealt with the man, was the kind of power that is meeting the power of the enemy in the Lord's service here.

J.T. Do you not think he would need that as left alone in the territory where the Lord was refused? They ask the Lord to depart out of their coasts and He does, but He leaves the man there. What power would be needed in that man, to stand and tell what the Lord had done for him, to bear witness there!

Rem. So that God has secured a man for His service.

J.T. That is right, and he would tell what was done for him; he would be a witness in himself of what God had done for him.

Eu.R. The Lord had become attractive to him, and he would fain be with Him.

J.T. Quite; that kind of man the Lord can trust. If he were just simply delivered the Lord would no doubt have allowed him to accompany Him, but I think His leaving him in the country indicates the quality of the work there. Then you get another movement in verse 21, at which we began to read: "And Jesus having passed over in the ship again to the other side, a great crowd gathered to him; and he was by the sea". There you see what the Lord carried on; He is 'by the sea'; He has come to His own side, but He is still by the sea, and the remaining part of the chapter brings out quality, first in a woman and then in a girl. That is, it is the excellence of the quality in these three cases, shewing how the work of God takes in mankind in its varied relations a man, a woman and a girl, the latter called 'damsel' here by the Lord.

N.McC. What is the suggestion in that?

J.T. The idea is freshness of life, but here in Mark with the added thought of walking. She not only sat but she walked, because that is a feature of fresh young life.

J.C. S. Do you regard all this as indicating the Lord's ability to draw upon the wealth of the sea?

J.T. The passage begins with that, that He was by the sea, verse 21.

Ques. What is the suggestion in the twelve years, both in the woman and the child?

J.T. The three taken together refer to what goes on in one believer, namely, intelligence, then transparency, that is deliverance inwardly, as in Romans 7 and then fewness of life. It is, I think, the believer according to Romans. What do you think?

F.S.M. I was wondering whether the three incidents together would not suggest the conditions for our service today; first deliverance, and then sitting at the feet of Jesus clothed and in the right mind, then being sent, then being transparent, and finally the simplicity that would mark the child in newness of life.

J.T. Yes; so that the twelve years in the case of the woman and the child would mean the effect of deliverance in the believer. The child's life corresponded with the time of the woman's trouble; it was year by year; so that the inward deliverance of Romans 7,8 culminates in a normal spiritual state; The Lord begins to shew here that there were grades of quality in the service; that the servants were not all on the same level in His mind; there were three distinctive ones. He is already indicating quality in His servants, and He has in mind that there should be quality and spiritual refinement in the result of His work; and I think that is seen in the girl. She is the product, not of what was public as in the woman's case, but of private work. It is a private spiritual refinement culminating in fresh life, as implied in Romans 8.

M.W.B. In that way there is a reflection of what the servant is in the work that he accomplishes.

J.T. Just so. You would be exercised as to adding a little touch to the saints. It is not always rough work. There is that certainly; dealing with the man was heavy work, casting out the demons; but then there is the

refining process, and that is also seen here. That is a very great test as to where one is, and what is the quality of one's ministry; it is what one would be exercised about as to the quality of the ministry, because whilst we have volume, thank God, we must never overlook that quality must enter into ministry, the refining of the saints. The Lord is aiming at the greatest possible product; but the church is to be the acme of divine workmanship and He is pleased to use us in that. So it is a question of one's ability for refining, that is, the increase in quality in the ministry. The heavenly city will be the fulness of the result of that work, the excess. The superlative degree is in Ephesians, and that points to the work of God in its completeness. The heavenly city really will display the supreme refining work of God, and that is what should affect us if the Lord is pleased to call us into His service; are we able to move on into a little bit of quality in ministry? It is not simply volume; quality is the thing to which the Lord would call attention.

Ques. Is it suggested in the thought of the twelve the power for service and the conditions that there might be quality?

J.T. We are speaking now rather about the three. The twelve represent the complete administrative system, to meet the whole position of evil here; but then you have three selected out of the twelve; reminding us that the Lord is already indicating quality. Why should He take those three? There must be something about them above the others. You find them specially selected, and then they are brought into this particular part of the work in the house, and you have this result, a girl brought up out of death, by the Lord, and walking. You would see there freshness, grace of movement and potential development of features of the church.

H.E.S. Do these three incidents shew the perfection of the service? Is it in principle deliverance from Satan, sin and death?

J.T. Well, there is all that; but I think you ought to add the thought of refinement, the newness of life that Romans contemplates. Romans 8 contemplates something very fine leading on to Ephesians. Romans properly leads into Ephesians. That is, in a girl like this, fresh from the Lord's hands, brought back to life in this environment of the father and the mother and the three selected apostles, you have something that can be developed. She is only twelve years of age, and therefore there is in her that which can be developed.

F.S.M. Would it suggest in the Lord taking the girl by the hand at the age of twelve, that there is a moment in our soul history when the Lord would take us by the hand and awaken the instincts of service towards Him?

J.T. You have in a girl in those circumstances a subject, as you might say, for the development of spirituality. From the Lord's point of view, what will He not do with this case?

E.J.McB. Is your thought the possibility of walking in newness of life?

J.T. Yes, the possibilities that follow the full effect of the teaching in Romans.

J.C.S. Speaking again of refinement, would persons serving on that line have a kind of moral elegance in their service?

J.T. That is so. Then there must be something important in that you have the actual original words the Lord used, "Talitha koumi". The child hears those words from His own lips. They are interpreted for us; but you have the actual words the Lord used in this girl's ears. That is to say, she is a direct product of His own work; and it says she immediately arose and walked. "Damsel, I say to thee. Arise. And immediately the damsel arose and walked, for she was twelve years old". Now, whatever comes after must have this as a groundwork. That is to say, as I understand it, it is that which Romans produces and which Ephesians finishes.

Obviously a girl of twelve years is not finished; she does not present the full divine idea in a woman, for the divine idea really is the church. That is the great culminating thing on the feminine side; but here you have a subject for that work, from the standpoint of quality.

M.W.B. Do you connect that with the way Ananias put his hands on Saul? Would he have given him an impression of what was suited to the assembly in the way of refinement, of the quality of the thing?

J.T. That is a good suggestion, because the Lord had taken Ananias in hand to ensure that the touch should be, that which should represent Him.

R.B. Do you mean that if there is to be the securing of quality in the yield, you must have the quality first in the Levite?

J.T. Exactly; that is what I have been thinking as to the quality of the ministry that the Lord is giving. There is much of it; but it is quality that is needed so that there should be the development and the finish in the church. What do you say?

E.J.McB. I think that is very good.

J.T. How do you look at it in our ministry?

E.J.McB. One would long to see converts actually marked by a fresh character of life in this scene, with interests and affections moving into what is dear to Christ.

J.T. You see how little there is of that abroad in the nominal service of the Lord. There is no idea of quality, even although souls may be saved; there is no idea of the finished product, so to speak.

W.L. Would the Philippian epistle cover the range of those three you have brought before us, commencing with the rough work in the jailor, and Lydia going on to the finer touches we get in the epistle?

J.T. That is good. I have no doubt Lydia represents the quality of Philippi, because she is the woman "whose heart the Lord opened to attend to the things spoken by Paul". Paul spoke to the jailor of course; but she attended.

to the things spoken by him. Whatever he said she would attend to; Paul's ministry is the full thought of God in the church.

J.J. This all involves a moral process.

J.T. It does; Paul recognised afterwards that Lydia represented the quality of his work, for he went to her when he was released from the prison. "They came to Lydia", as if she was the special link there. The apostle could thank God for his "whole remembrance" of the Philippian saints, (Philippians 1:3).

Ques. What place does food have in relation to what you have said? "He desired that something should be given her to eat".

J.T. That is another important thing that necessarily goes with refinement of character, the quality of the food. The Lord says, 'Something'; He does not specify it. "He desired that something should be given her to eat". It would be for the parents to provide the food for her, those who were responsible. It was not simply that there should be food in the house, but food that would suit such a one. What have you in mind?

Rem. I was wondering if "Damsel, I say to thee, Arise", would suggest a divine operation, and the food, the service of those who sympathetically stand by and see what the girl needs.

J.T. Exactly.

J.J. Does the last verse shew that Romans overlaps into Colossians?

J.T. I think Romans really merges into Ephesians; the end of Romans links on with Ephesians. Colossians, is a sort of detour necessary because of a certain danger at Colosse. The normal course is Romans into Ephesians; that is, the mystery is introduced at the end of Romans and that links with Ephesians.

F.H.B. When you speak of refinement, do you mean the development of the character of Christ in the

J.T. Just so. What is suggested here is the spiritual environment into which the girl is raised up. The Lord put out certain ones. "But he, having put them all out, takes with him the father of the child, and the mother, and those that were with him, and enters in where the child was lying". So that the environment was spiritual. It was the quality, the very best available the Lord Himself, and then those three, and then the father and the mother of the child, and the girl is raised up into that environment. So whilst it is a divine operation, it is a divine operation in such surroundings.

Ques. Would you classify these three incidents as dispossession, relief and formation?

J.T. That is right.

M.W.B. Is there progress in that way, subjugation in connection with the man in intelligence; and then transparency; and then what you said as to spiritual refinement? That is, the lack of transparency prevents the refinement.

J.T. Just so; and then the age of the child means that she is a subject for further development.

M.W.B. It is not maturity, but the immense possibilities.

G.W.W. Is your thought that giving something to eat indicates the work of the Spirit in connection with one established in Roman truth, but not yet ready to take up the position indicated in Ephesians?

J.T. Yes; giving something to eat would build up the constitution, as we say. In Saul's case it says he, "having received food, got strength", then he was with the disciples, and then he entered into the synagogue and preached that Jesus was the Son of God. All this required spiritual strength, which suitable food alone can impart.

G.W.W. Do you think it indicates the work of the Spirit?

J.T. I think so, and then what any one of us gives in the way of ministry.

P.S.M. Would you suggest giving something to eat would encourage us in our local meetings that there should be that kind of ministry, that would build up servants of quality and refinement?

J.T. So if you feel led in taking on service to younger people, you want to leave the subject for further development. You lead them on as the Lord help you; and the next ministry may lead them on further. That is, the ministry ought to be one whole, under the Lord, for "the perfecting of the saints". All the gifts are "for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", (Ephesians 4:12,13). I am sure that is the line.

C.S.S. Would the fine quality of the curtains of the tabernacle indicate what you are saying?

J.T. That is good, because it is really the fineness that is in view. The further you go into the tabernacle the finer the quality in regard of the materials used. The curtains were of byssus, which would imply an excessively fine yarn. The nearer you get to God, the more essential is the refinement indicated in this material.

Rem. I suppose nothing would promote that like the study of Christ.

J.T. That is the idea, what Ephesians contemplates; "the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", that is, what shines out in Him as Man.

E.J.M. There were Peter, James and John; do you have administration, practical service and love reaching to the service of the Lord Jesus Himself?

J.T. Just so.

G.W.W. Would the paternal and maternal influence found in the assembly be indicated by the father and mother being brought into prominence?

J.T. I thought that.

Eu.R. In the next chapter we have the Lord feeding the multitude; have you that in mind at all?

J.T. There is much instruction in the next chapter. You have the calling out of the twelve; it is not the three now, but the twelve. "And he calls the twelve to him and he began to send them out". Chapter 5 suggests the wealth of the sea through the Lord's own ministry. Now the twelve are called, and he began to send them out. A long course of ministry is in view. The twelve anointed certain subjects of their work with oil, verse 13.

E.L.M. Would the period of time between naming the disciples in chapter 3:17 here answer to the probationary period of levitical service?

J.T. That is right; the Levite entered the service at twenty-five and became fully developed at thirty; this chapter is full levitical maturity the Lord can trust them with a commission and the result is, "They cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many infirm, and healed them". The anointing with oil is the spiritual dignity with which converts are invested.

J.J. Have you anything to say as to the lack of converts in localities in connection with all that has been before us? Ought not that to be a concern with us?

J.T. Well I am sure it ought to be taken to heart, but I think there is a good deal of 'hook -- and -- line' work going on now. I mean, we should not ignore what is being done. Time was when the 'net' work was more in evidence and you heard of a good many converts in a place; but I think there is more hook -- and -- line work going on now, individuals getting blessing here and there. Every day you hear of some one or two, and that is not to be ignored, but I am sure the Lord would stimulate us as to this, and I believe the Lord will use what is coming before us here to this end.

Ques. Do you think the hook-and-line work would tend more to quality?

J.T. It does. It is recognised by fishermen that die hook -- and -- line fish are the best.

H.D'A.C. In the previous chapter it was one soul in each case, the demoniac, the woman and the child.

J.T. Then the first works of the twelve justify the Lord in His selection of them. They anoint with oil, which is a very good sign; they would leave the result of their work in spiritual dignity, They are thinking not of themselves in it, but of God, because the Holy Spirit represents God.

R.B. Is that something additional to what you referred to as refinement?

J.T. I think the anointing with oil is dignity put upon them publicly. What did you think?

R.B. I thought anointing was public.

E.L.M. Was that not Paul's exercise at Ephesus? "Have ye received the Holy Spirit?" I wondered if that was the foundation for Ephesian truth, the saints set up in the power of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite, and then the work of God itself should be representative of Him. An anointed person is one dignified. We have three things about the believer; the anointing, the sealing, and the earnest of the Spirit in the heart. The anointing is what the believer is publicly for God.

W.R.P. Have you any thought why the anointing is in connection with the work of the disciples rather than with the Lord's own work?

J.T. It indicates how they entered into the spirit of the work, that they were not going by rule. As we sometimes say. Where is your scripture for this or that? It is right, of course, to have scripture for anything, but you enter into the spirit of the Lord's work, and I think this lesson begins in the end of chapter 2, where He walked through the cornfield. That was all He did; He did not pluck the ears of corn; they did, and He defended their action; as if He would say. You have been coming into

liberty by the example I have shewn you and you have got into the spirit of it. That is one great thing in Christianity, getting into the spirit of things, because the full effect of coming into this is to get to God Himself, for He is behind all. What is written is comparatively little, but the deeper you go, the nearer you get to God Himself. I believe the disciples got the spirit of the Lord's ministry in applying the oil.

W.R.P. I heartily go with that.

J.T. I think every one should be concerned as to the product of his ministry, that it should have refinement and dignity.

F.S. Why is it connected with the infirm?

J.T. They were consciously weak. "When I am weak, then I am powerful", (2 Corinthians 12:10). It is the weak things God takes up and anoints, and although weak you are powerful.

W.C. Would the anointing with oil involve souls being brought into their intelligent place in the anointed vessel?

J.T. I am sure that is true.

H.D'A.C. When one hears of converts the question is, where is the oil? Can we perceive that the Spirit is there? It is very important; it should be evident that the Spirit is there.

T.K. In connection with the remark as to the spirit of the thing, would the qualification for that be faith working by love?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. You referred to the opening of Proverbs 8. What application do you give to that today?

J.T. Wisdom's service is to be where men are.

Eu.R. In this anointing with oil it is not only that there is deliverance from demons, but the bringing in of some entirely new feature that would represent God.

J.T. That is the idea. God has taken up weak and

infirm persons and put His dignity upon them, because the anointing is dignity and power.

Eu.R. So it is to the Corinthians the apostle writes of the saints being established in Christ and anointed. Would it involve that we should have the sense locally of being established in Christ and anointed together for the representation of God.

J.T. I am sure that is right.

D.L.H. I should like to ask why the anointing with oil seems to be placed here as a means to an end? It does not say they healed them and anointed them with oil, but they anointed them with oil and healed them. The healing seems to follow the anointing with oil, very much as in the epistle of James. Why is that?

J.T. The idea is that healing is included in the results of the oil. It is the Spirit in that connection, the public aspect, where there was disease. Luke speaks about 'diseases' as well as sick people. All is superseded by the dignity and power involved in the possession of the Spirit.

D.L.H. Then would the healing be characterised by the Spirit's power?

J.T. That is what I thought. It goes with it; the anointing is the thing to take notice of specially.

J.J. Is not the woman with the issue of blood an illustration of that? She felt in her body that she was healed; it was power really by the Spirit, was it not?

J.T. Romans 5 leads to Romans 7,8. The anointing here is Romans 8, only it is more public and I carries healing with it. There is really no healing spiritually without the Holy Spirit.

Eu.R. The apostles could call attention to the man in (Acts 3:16): "By faith in his name, his name has made this man strong whom ye behold and know; and the faith which is by him has given him this complete soundness in the presence of you all". Would that suggest it?

J.T. Just so.

Eu.R. It says in the next chapter, "Beholding the man who had been healed standing with them".

J.T. He "held Peter and John", shewing he had linked on with the public testimony. The anointing is implied in his case.

Eu.R. And although such a young convert there was dignity there.

J.C.S. Was the power there in the twelve to produce the quality?

J.T. That is the idea. The result of their testimony should correspond with them. I mean, you want to represent God in your service. I suppose the two pillars in the front of the temple indicated what God could produce by the testimony, and there were all the necessary things in the court of the temple to bring about correspondence with those pillars. Spiritually the means were there of bringing the man that approached into accord with those pillars, and that is the thought in public service. The servant represents God and what God would effect. The thing is therefore brought near to the person who is the subject of grace. You have the idea in yourself, not only in what you say, but in what you are. These men were anointed, and they anointed the subjects of their work infirmity marking all. How weak Saul was after the heavenly vision!

M.W.B. You were saying it should be an exercise on the part of the servant to be in his ministry and manner that which he wishes to be produced in those to whom he ministers.

J.T. That is all important.

J.H.T. Do you think the service of Tychicus at Colosse would be a vital link in the growth from Romans to Ephesians? Paul speaks of him as "the beloved brother and faithful minister". Would the former bring in the refinement there and the latter bring in food? I was thinking of what you said as to God sending the ministers and that they should represent Him. Paul

speaks of having sent Tychicus. He had that delegated authority, and he is marked by these features of refinement and bringing in food; and then the secret of his power would be in his being a "fellow -- bondman". Further, he says, "that he might know your state". I wondered if he would not be concerned about the growth from Romans to Ephesians; it also says, "that he might encourage your hearts", and then he that "with Onesimus ... they shall make known to you everything here". Is that suggestive?

J.T. Yes. It indicates plainly that Tychicus was representative of God in his ministry.

Eu.R. Would you make a few remarks on the rest of the chapter?

J.T. The passage read, (Mark 6:30), records that the apostles were gathered together to Jesus. They have now got their official title; they are called 'apostles' I suppose to shew that they are qualified.

R.B. Is this what you have called getting their degrees?

J.T. Just so. There is the principle in Scripture of naming a thing when it is there. They had evidently qualified in their service, and so they are formally called apostles in verse 30; "The apostles are gathered together to Jesus". That is a good reference, "to Jesus" they go back after their successful service to Jesus. It is very touching and a beautiful example, with much besides. There is a certain calm mg result in going back to Jesus "gathered together to Jesus", it says. "They related to him all things, both what they had done and what they had taught". That was their part, and then He said to them, "Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place and rest a little", and then it adds, "For those coming and those going were many, and they had not leisure even to eat. And they went away apart into a desert place by ship". There again the link is kept up with the sea, and then you have the feeding of the multitude, which brought

out that after all their successful service they were defective in ability to bring in the food.

Then "immediately he compelled his disciples to go on board ship, and to go on before to the other side to Bethsaida, while he sends the crowd away. And, having dismissed them, he departed into the mountain to pray". Now they are in a position where the wind is contrary. They are in a position selected for them by Him, and apparently they took the position somewhat reluctantly. "He compelled" them, shewing that at certain points the Lord has to use a firm hand, and He does. He compelled them to take up this position in the ship, but then He would bring out something that they perhaps had never thought of. He would bring out the principle of walking on the water, which was a new experience altogether for them. And the Lord "would have passed them by", which is a very searching matter, even at a time of success in service, as If He would remind us that after all He could get along without us. Not that He wishes to, Because He does not really pass them by, but He would remind them of that. "Seeing them labouring in rowing, for the wind was contrary to them, about the fourth watch of the night he comes to them walking on the sea, and would have passed them by". That is a thing to be noted.

Ques. Was that a test of their state?

J.T. No doubt it would have been a challenge to them, to see the Lord about to pass them by. Well, why should that be? We can never assume, therefore, that He can be brought to a standstill because of anything in us He can go on.

J.J. I suppose in one sense He had passed them by in taking up Paul.

J.T. Exactly; and in taking up the seventy according to Luke, He shewed He could get others, and many others. But it is only to call attention to the lesson to be learned. Then it says, "But they, seeing him walking

on the sea, thought that it was an apparition, and cried out. For all saw him and were troubled. And immediately he spoke with them, and says to them. Be of good courage: it is I, be not afraid. And he went up to them into the ship, and the wind fell". It was a very wonderful experience, I am sure, and the result was a great stimulation in them. Their real state is brought to light as indicating why He would have passed them by. It says, "They were exceedingly beyond measure astonished in themselves and wondered, for they understood not through the loaves: for their heart was hardened". That shews He was dealing with what was in their hearts, and that explains why He would have passed them by. And then it says, "Having passed over, they came to the land of Gennesaret and made the shore. And on their coming out of the ship, immediately recognising him, they ran through that whole country around, and began to carry about those that were ill on couches, where they heard that he was". There is great stimulation now in this acquired fresh knowledge of the Lord.

Eu.R. Is it like a crisis among the people of God, that if the gain is secured, it leads to a fresh impression of Himself?

J.T. One has often seen that. The result of a crisis is that there is an excess of light and stimulation, but it is humbling that it could come only in this way.

J.H.T. There may be much public activity, but the Lord looks at the state behind it.

J.T. That is very searching.

H.E.S. Does this testing bring out the characteristic feature in regard of the servant in Mark, that is, unbelief? Is that our weakness?

J.T. Quite. I hope we shall see something of the seriousness of that as it appears in the last chapters of this gospel.

THE ABUNDANCE OF THE SEAS (4)

Mark 7:31 - 37; Mark 9:1 - 13

J.T. We were dwelling on chapters 5 and 6 this morning as indicating the wealth accruing from ministry in relation to the sea. We left off at the Lord walking on the sea at the end of chapter 6. The Lord increases in the minds of the disciples as His ministry proceeds, so that the end of chapter 6 records that "On their coming out of the ship, immediately recognising him, they ran through that whole country around, and began to carry about those that were ill on couches, where they heard that he was. And wherever he entered into villages, or cities, or the country, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and besought him that they might touch if it were only the hem of his garment; and as many as touched him were healed". We can thus see how the Lord increased in their minds, even His garments being recognised as emitting virtue. Chapter 7 brings out the opposition seen in the Pharisees and some of the scribes in Jerusalem. We are not yet in the area of condensed opposition, that comes in in the second section; but Jerusalem's influence is in evidence, and we have the question of ceremonialism.

Eu.R. Would the city of Jerusalem suggest organised opposition to the line that was coming in?

J.T. That is it exactly, and we have to face it. We shall see it in the second division of the book, but already it is stretching out its hand.

H.E.S. Do we learn from chapters 6 and 7 that the servant needs to be delivered from every natural and spiritual feature of the present scene?

J.T. Quite. Ceremonialism is a very potent weapon in holding people's minds. There has been a great effort put forth in this country during the past few years to enlarge on that side, as strengthening the accredited Establishment, appealing to the religious element in the

human mind. Observing the great success of superstitious ritualism in Rome, the Establishment is seeking to utilise it fully here.

Ques. What would the hem of the garment suggest?

J.T. It was power going out from the Lord in His immediate circumstances; the circumstances themselves emitting virtue, shewing the excess of power. Power is used ordinarily by the intelligence, the hands but when it is emitted from the garments, the thing itself is there in excess. It is all around, so to speak, so that as many as touched Him were healed.

H.E.S. Would it be right to say that in the gospel of Luke we have the excess of grace, and in this gospel we have the excess of power?

J.T. Exactly; power in the testimony is what Mark would emphasise.

J.J. I suppose what comes out in Colossians 2 would correct ceremonialism. Would that go along with this?

J.T. It does. The Lord meets it by saying, "Well did Esaias prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honour me with their lips, but their heart is far away from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching as their teachings commandments of men". That is what has to be noticed now. "For, leaving the commandment of God, ye hold what is delivered by men to keep", He says, and then, "Having called again the crowd, he said to them. Hear me, all of you, and understand: There is nothing from outside a man entering into him, which can defile him; but the things, which go out from him, those it is which defile the man. If any one have ears to hear, let him hear. And when he went indoors from the crowd, his disciples asked him concerning the parable". The Lord would lay; it upon us a little to think of the crowd. The crowd is the general public, the general profession, who may turn an ear and pay attention. The Lord pays particular attention to them,

and He would suggest that to us. They deserve attention especially in view of this increase of ceremonialism. There may be an ear, it may be very little, but I believe it should be attended to, if there be any interest. In the prophet Amos we have the suggestion of a shepherd taking out of the mouth of the lion two legs or a piece of an ear. Whatever there be, it should be attended to. Then there is the private side, verse 17, which embraces ourselves; the disciples inquire inside.

H.H. Your thought is that ceremonialism would nullify power?

J.T. It would; the enemy has a great advantage in it in regard of the multitude. At Colosse it was creeping in amongst the saints, although marked by order. The Colossian assembly was not like that at Corinth; it was marked by order, and the apostle rejoices in the order, but they were exposed to philosophy and worldly ordinances. But here it is rather the crowd.

H.H. Would that bring in the gospel? In appealing to people generally you would move on gospel lines.

J.T. Exactly; whatever ear there is. It may not be much now; the ear of the public is becoming less and less attentive, but whatever there is, I am sure it should be ministered to. Then "when he went indoors" that is another thing. The Lord graciously helps us indoors to a right understanding of everything. Here it is really a question of the state of the heart of man; it is not what goes in, but what comes out of a man, what comes out of his heart. There are thirteen things mentioned by the Lord, not simply in the man's heart, but that proceed out of it.

H.H. Shewing that the heart is dreadfully defiled.

J.T. That is the idea, what man is at the core; and the things are not inactive. They "proceed out" of him. So that the woman's daughter next mentioned is to remind us of this evil; she was possessed with an unclean spirit. "Whose little daughter", it says, "had an unclean

spirit" a very sorrowful thing; a different state to that of Jairus daughter. And then there is the man who had an impediment in his speech. It says, "They bring to him a deaf man who could not speak right". I mention these things in the order in which they appear in chapter 7 in view of the emphasis laid on ceremonialism lately in this country, and the awful moral conditions that exist in the increasing looseness. We see the great expression of it in this little daughter with an unclean demon.

R.B. Why does the question of His not being hid come in connection with Tyre and Sidon? "He could not be hid".

J.T. I suppose it is in keeping with Mark; we do not need to advertise if the power is there. Not that we should hide ourselves away; the Lord did not do that. He was in the house, that is, in a place of sympathy, but "he could not be hid", need finds Him. "Having entered into a house he would not have any one know it, and he could not be hid", verse 24. It is to call attention to the power of the servant.

H.E.S. Do you think if the kingdom of God is come in power it will be manifest without any such thought as advertisement?

J.T. I am sure human methods in advertising would be condemned by the spirit of Mark; and yet the truth should be known. It will be known as there is power in the ministry.

J.C.S. Do you regard the little daughter as representative of what ceremonialism has brought forth? There is affinity between it and the unclean spirit.

J.T. Yes; and the evil condition of the heart of man, proceeding out from it, is covered, over with a cloak of ceremonialism. It was a dreadful state of things here, and the demon is operating in one who ought to have been protected. It shews there must have been great domestic derangement, for the little girl ought to have been protected. Evidently she was not, for the unclean

demon got in. The mother felt it, which was good, but apparently there had not been protection.

Eu.R. Along with these terrible things in the human heart, there is a natural religiousness that can go on with a formal condition of things.

J.T. Exactly.

Eu.R. We have to beware of the influence of what proceeds from Jerusalem, in that way.

J.T. Ritualism will just cover over the awful condition that is below, the vicious state of man's heart, and the consequent result m the unclean demon in a little girl -- one who ought to have been the object of the tenderest care and protection, indicating the sad state prevalent now throughout the christianised world.

Eu.R. Do we have to learn to judge these things at the root that are mentioned here one at a time?

J.T. Yes. No doubt they are mentioned in order here. This chapter should be specially noted in the light of the modem development in this country of superstitious ritualism. Rome has succeeded on this line everybody recognises it is a marvellous success in maintaining a system of religion, whilst covering over the awful conditions in man's heart. These things come out. Rome pretends to look after them with the confessional and all that, but there is no power to check them, they come out; they proceed out, the Lord says, and the effect is seen in that the family protection was not there. It is remarkable that it was in the neighbourhood of Tyre and Sidon; as if the Lord went there that this might come to light and that He might meet it; He met it in power, without seeing the girl at all. The demon went out of her; it was a question of His word.

E.M. Would ceremonialism be the enemy's counterpart to what we were having this morning, the thought of refinement and perfection of the work which is being carried on at the present moment?

J.T. I am sure human refinement is nowhere more

developed than in the ceremonial system. It appeals to the flesh; the flesh is developed in it. Agag is the flesh, but refined flesh. God ordered Saul to destroy the Amalekites, and he seemingly did; but he saved the king and the best of the sheep and the cattle. Agag represents the best. It says that he came gaily or delicately, he would put on the politeness of the flesh, and that is developed in the ceremonial system as nowhere else; it is very ensnaring and appealing. The fine arts are taxed to their limits in the cathedrals.

H.D'A.C. The sweet music dulls the senses.

P.L. Do you get all this in the word to all servants of the Lord in the last days in (2 Timothy 3)? These various features of the natural heart are brought out to the full in the early verses of that chapter, "without natural affection", and so on, then the ceremonialism, "Having a form of piety but denying the power of it"; and then what is said in regard of the households in connection with the little girl, "Leading captive silly women, laden with sins, led by various lusts".

J.T. That is very true. It shews the awful conditions that exist underneath all this recent effort in this country. Rome has succeeded in it, and we, as seeking to serve, ought to take account of the enemy's effort. The Lord shews how to meet it. He would bring the woman down, for there was also pretension to national advantage. It says in this gospel that she "was a Greek, Syrophenician by race", to suggest that she would consider that as of importance, because next to the Jews the Greeks had a renown in the world. They are so regarded in Romans; they are put alongside the Jew, "Jew and Greek", shewing that as a nation they had distinction; so she is said here to have been a Greek, but she had to come down. Deliverance from this unclean system is in acknowledging our true state; and the Lord says to her, "Suffer the children to be first filled; for it is not right to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs. But

she answered and says to him. Yea, Lord; for even the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said to her. Because of this word, go thy way, the demon is gone out of thy daughter". You see thus how to get at this state of things in service as depicted in this chapter, and how we may serve in it. It is by bringing in the light of what belongs to the children, and that no national distinction is of any value at all.

Eu.R. And by the admission that one is simply a dog, that is, with these unclean things in one's heart and mind, however refined. Is there import in the fact that this is in the borders of Tyre and Sidon, two seafaring places?

J.T. Exactly; commercialism fosters this sort of thing, affording the means for the gratification of the human heart.

J.J. It is well that we have (Matthew 16) following chapter 15, where this same incident is brought out, because over against ceremonialism the Lord is building the assembly, what is solid and marked by spirituality.

H.H. And is it not serious, looking at it from a national point of view, that ceremonialism tends to produce this kind of thing? I mean, it forecasts serious things for the nation.

J.T. The prospect is dreadful yet Amos 3 encourages us, that God does nothing save that He makes it known to His servants the prophets. The Lord would draw us into his confidence as to what is coming. In the meantime the shepherd takes out of the mouth of the lion two legs or a piece of an ear. That is the kind of service that is suitable, you rescue when you can.

W.L. Will not ceremonialism produce apostasy and the Antichrist?

J.T. I am sure that is true.

P.L. It is interesting to see at Tyre in (Acts 21) the wives and the children kneeling down on the shore and praying. Has this service at Tyre been continued, and are there many houses now cleansed from all this?

J.T. That is good. It shews something had been learned. The wives and the children are in sympathy with the apostle.

Eu.R. This was a territory that yielded a good deal of material for the temple.

J.T. And the Lord is indicating here that He is going to draw upon it again, but on this line the national claim is disregarded.

J.J. Would you just say what relation this gospel has to the assembly, in contrast to Matthew?

J.T. As has been remarked, this is the, servants gospel, but it necessarily bears on the assembly. What we have said all through bears on the assembly, for the wealth of the seas embellishes the house of God. Thus you have stated the amount of gold brought in in Solomon's day and the other things for the embellishing of the house; so that this gospel would bear on the assembly in that way.

Eu.R. This woman would become a lover of the true David, and so would be material for the assembly.

R.B. Is it not encouraging that in spite of the awful state of things you have drawn attention to, the power was such that the demon was gone out; it is not cast out.

J.T. It is very remarkable. The Lord said to the woman, "Because of this word, go thy way, the demon is gone out of thy daughter". I suppose the position was made untenable by the power of Christ, and being at a distance would indicate the power of His word, how He can act at a distance.

H.E.S. In 1 Corinthians, in the light of all that the Jew and Greek were seeking, the apostle brings in Christ as God's wisdom and God's power.

P.L. Would the young girl now be like those half-opened lilies in the house of God, bursting forth into grace and life?

J.T. What follows would be the development of what

is seen in her. The demon is gone out: "And having gone away to her house she found the demon gone out, and her daughter lying on the bed". Then the next thing is, "And again having left the borders of Tyre and Sidon, he came to the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis. And they bring to him a deaf man who could not speak right". She is in a way continued in this next case, and this further operation is needed, but what comes out in this section is the Lord's profound feelings. We are coming now to something that should touch our hearts in service, that is, deep feelings so as to feel things as they are. It says, "Having taken him away from the crowd apart, he put his fingers to his ears; and having spit, he touched his tongue; and looking up to heaven he groaned, and says to him, Ephphatha, that is. Be opened". We have not only the Lord's power, that He can act at a distance, so that the demon has to go out without His even seeing the girl, but what the Lord feelings in all this; what the effects of sin were to Him. One would seek to enter into this a little in the Lord's service.

Eu.R. Do you mean because the man had his ear closed to God?

J.T. Quite. What an advantage it was to the enemy when Eve gave her ear to Satan, and Adam was brought into that! What widespread disaster resulted! The Lord goes back on all that. It is now a question of the whole race of man, and the power that Satan had over it. Think what it involved for Him if an ear is to be opened and if the mind of God is to be heard and enter into a man, so that he is able to speak right about God, and there is complete deliverance in intelligence. So you see the feelings of Christ here. He put His fingers mark, His fingers first to his ears, and then He spit and touched his tongue, and looking up to heaven He groaned. Consider what all these things mentioned meant in the Son of God, for I suppose the spitting means what He

was essentially as coming into all this, and how infinitely.

M.W.B. Do you think the Lord's feelings stand in direct contrast to the ceremonialism of the early part of the chapter?

J.T. I do.

M.W.B. It is just a reference to what is going on today; very perfunctory and formal service in contrast to these deep feelings.

J.T. Yes. Of course the Lord does certain things formally, but power is in everything that He does. We are not Quakers; we do not disregard certain things that may be called formal, but power should mark them; power is behind every movement here, the fingers, the looking up to heaven, the spitting, and the groaning -- the power of God is in everything.

F.H.B. The order too is remarkable. He touched his ears first before his tongue, as if the ears had to be set right first.

J.T. That would be the order in which man was lost to God.

H.H. There would be a very close relation between the Lord and the man in that way.

H.P.W. Is it not so in the presentation of the gospel, that the spirit in which it is presented, reflecting in some way the feelings of Christ, is as important and often more so than the actual words themselves?

J.T. It is. I am sure the Lord would impress us as to feelings. There are religious feelings and so on, but to have feelings like His is what should be desired.

H.P.W. His feelings would have an effect upon our spirits, and in that way affect the persons ministered to.

F.S.M. Would there be an intimate relation between the Lord's feelings and the Lord's touch? Is it not striking that the touch is emphasised? Is not the way we are able to touch souls dependent on the measure in

which our souls sigh and cry for all the abominations that are done?

J.T. I believe where you get the original words of Christ, the very words He used, what is in mind is to bring His own feelings to you. This gospel is somewhat distinguished in that way by the recording of words actually used by the Lord, such as "Talitha koumi" and this one, 'Ephphatha', and 'Abba'. We are let into His own feelings in what He said to the Father, Abba, Father.

W.C. Is the climax at the cross in the Hebrew being given in the forsaking? "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

J.T. It is. One would love to thus get near to the Lord, and I believe that is the suggestion in His very words being given. The very words are handed on, suppose, in all languages into which the Bible has been translated.

J.C.S. So we come close to Him and imbibe His feelings.

Ques. Can we have those feelings if we remain in Tyre and Sidon? Commercial feelings tend to harden.

J.T. That is so. He came back into Decapolis, a hard soil, but another person is delivered there.

H.E.S. In the statement, "He does all things well", is there emphasis not only on what the Lord did, but on the manner of His doing it?

J.T. That is the point; He did all things well. That is another expression peculiar to Mark.

J.J. Were not those feelings continued very much in Paul in his service, both in the gospel and in relation to the saints in a special way?

J.T. I am sure they were.

P.L. He was "painfully excited" at Athens. (Acts 17:16).

Ques. Was God securing a public response to refinement in perfection here?

J.T. I think the result here is most important. "Immediately", it says, "his ears were opened, and

the band of his tongue was loosed and he spoke right". It is more than the previous man. The man out of whom the demons were cast was sitting, clothed and in his right mind, but here you have the power of hearing and speaking.

Eu.R. The man in (Acts 3) began immediately to praise God. That would be speaking right.

J.T. Quite.

H.D'A.C. The Man who opened this man's ears was the greatest listener that had ever been on the earth. "Morning by morning" He listened to God and got His word; He was not deaf to God.

J.T. And the greatest speaker too. They "wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth", (Luke 4:22).

E.J.M. Do you think those that brought him had some sense of the feelings of the Lord Jesus in regard to these conditions? It says that they brought him.

J.T. No doubt. And "they beseech him that he might lay his hand on him" they felt for the man. The Lord values this.

M.W.B. You referred just now to the Lord's action in spitting, implying what He was essentially. What had you in mind in that?

J.T. It refers to what He is essentially. Though He had come into those circumstances, it was Himself. I think. His deity is involved in it.

M.W.B. Implying incarnation.

J.T. Yes; coming into manhood He remains what He is ever "the Same".

M.W.B. There must be great importance in this, as so much detail is given with precision.

J.T. Yes; it is a marvellous grouping of actions by the Lord; and I am sure it is so comprehensive that His own essential personality is implied, that He entered into these circumstances. It is marvellously touching to my mind that He should put His fingers in the ears and

spit and touch the tongue, and then look up to heaven and groan. It is very wonderful the more one dwells upon it, and the more what entered into it is seen, in the One who was there.

J.J. Would it be illustrated in the feelings of the two prophets Elijah and Elisha with the two boys?

J.T. I think that is good. You mean the prophet Elijah stretched himself on the lad; that is to say, he identified himself with the state of the boy, in the house of the widow of Zarephath, and Elisha did the same thing in the house of the Shunammite. It is the Lord's complete identification with the person.

H.P.W. Would you say a word as to the looking up to heaven.

J.T. That is to bring out His dependence, which is most interesting. We have in this gospel two feedings of the multitude, as in Matthew. In the first, the Lord looks up to heaven, that is, He recognises heaven as a dependent Man here. In the second. He does not look up to heaven. In the first you have the order, fifties or hundreds in ranks; but in the second there is no specification for any such divisions, because it is a question of the power that is already there, that is, the Spirit^ You may minister the word by the Spirit to any number; but when He looks up, then the idea is the assembly as representative of heaven here, and you have specification as to numbers, that is, the fifties or hundreds, in this gospel. So I think looking up to heaven would mean an acknowledgment of heaven; the Lord's dependence on it when here, and the order corresponding with it.

J.O.S. In the first feeding it is said that the Lord blessed, but in the second feeding He gave thanks only. Is there any special reason for that?

J.T. In the second feeding the number seven refers to what is here. It is a divine Person here, and we must respect the Holy Spirit. It is a divine Person here, and I believe that is the import of the second feeding in

chapter 8. The first feeding refers to heaven; that is, administration from heaven in the twelve, and the consequent specification as to numbers. Blessing comes in there.

J.J. How does the blind man of Bethsaida, who sees men as trees walking, come in in chapter 8?

J.T. That is an additional thing. We are now nearing the climax in this course of instruction. We are nearing the mount of transfiguration; and before you get to it there must be the principle of seeing everything clearly; for we are going to see great personages on the mount, and our minds must be disabused of ordinary men of earth. So the second touch, I think, is Colossians. The Colossians were in danger of the influence of men; and this second touch is to disabuse the mind of men as such, and enable us to see all things clearly.

J.H.T. Is this on the line of the Son setting you free? Would the truth setting you free be Romans, and the Son setting you free be Colossians?

J.T. Just so, and I think that fits here. It says, "And he comes to Bethsaida; and they bring him a blind man, and beseech him that he might touch him. And taking hold of the hand of the blind man he led him forth out of the village, and having spit upon his eyes, he laid his hands upon him, and asked him if he beheld anything. And having looked up, he said, I behold men, for I see them, as trees, walking. Then he laid his hands again upon his eyes, and he saw distinctly, and was restored and saw all things clearly". I think that is the effect of the epistle to the Colossians, in the sense that it delivers you from man; you see everything in clear perspective.

Eu.R. And then the one loaf in the next chapter would suggest the sufficiency of Christ, would it?

J.T. Yes. They had one loaf. Chapter 9 confirms that: "Jesus alone with themselves"; that is all we need, and it corresponds with Colossians.

Eu.R. Clarity of vision would be evidenced in the recognition of that.

J.T. And hence the next thing is, "Who do men say that I am?"

E.M. Is not verse 14 the last allusion to the ship in this gospel, where the one loaf is mentioned? I wondered whether there was any significance in that whether their education was complete on that line, reaching now toward the mount?

J.T. I am sure that is what is indicated. The sea is mentioned later, but not in the sense in which we have been considering it. It is a question here of a clear apprehension of the Person of Christ.

H.E.S. Are you suggesting that before we come to the mount of glory, a process of moral adjustment goes on with us?

J.T. Exactly; so that we may get an apprehension of the personality of Christ and then of personality generally in the divine realm.

Eu.R. On the one hand. God has come near to us in Jesus to open our ears and loose our tongues, and that would enable us to take account of Him as the Son of God.

J.T. Up to this point His Person is gradually coming into view. At the end of chapter 6 He is greatly enlarged in their minds; and in chapter 7 you have the spitting, the further thought of what He was essentially; and then in this chapter the one loaf, and then His question, "But ye, who do ye say that I am?"

E.M. What they discover on the mount was really true in principle in the one loaf -- who He was.

J.T. Quite; it was there all the time; but on the mount they saw "Jesus only with themselves". That is the position of christianity; you have the true idea of His Person and that Christ is sufficient; so the mount means that we have a clear perspective as to everything on earth. That is Colossians, that no man is obscuring

your vision, and perhaps if we were free to admit it, it is not so easy to get clear of the influence of man. How easily one gets an undue place among the saints, and a whole district is ruled by him. That is a thing that has to be guarded against. To see men as trees walking leads to being absorbed with some particular person; but when you see all things clearly, you are adjusted in regard to the whole position on earth. Now the next thing is, what do you think about Christ? He certainly has distinction. It is of the very greatest importance to acquire ability to take account of Him who He is.

Eu.R. Why is Peter's confession here simply, "Thou art the Christ"?

J.T. It is in keeping with the teaching of this gospel, not to shut out the full confession of Matthew. What you need here is the anointed Man, that is, a Man to whom God can commit Himself; "the Christ" One who accomplishes things for God.

M.W.B. With regard to what you were saying, do you think the adjustment of the epistle to the Colossians would prepare for the knowledge of the Son of God that is referred to in Ephesians?

J.T. I am sure of it; it prepares the way for the "fulness of the Christ". You can thus take account of His fulness, what has shone out, what was ever there. What He is essentially is there, and you find it throughout. There are indications of His Person all along from your first acquaintance with Christ. Now you come to the point of ascension and you are challenged as to what your conception of Christ is. It is not only what you think, but what you say. What are we saying about Him? We surely ought to speak about Him, and in doing so make plain who He is.

Ques. Did the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews get an impression of that? "Who being the effulgence of his glory and the expression of his substance".

J.T. Exactly. The world's history is full of so called

great men how much do we speak of the Lord Jesus, and of His personal distinction?

F.S.M. Would the epistle to the Colossians enable us to answer that question, "Who do ye say that I am?" "That he might have the first place in all things"?

J.T. Chapter 1 unfolds to us that the Father has delivered us from the authority of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love; and then the Holy Spirit proceeds to tell us about His Person. How great and glorious He is as presented there!

F.S.M. If Peter had been instructed in the epistle to the Colossians he would never have said, "Let us make three tabernacles".

Ques. Do you think it would be possible for us to have an apprehension of Christ and not have the power of language to express it?

J.T. Peter had language enough. He says here to the Lord, "Thou art the Christ". If our ears, have been opened by His touch, and our tongues loosed by His touch, why should we not have language enough to speak about His Person? Of what value is language if in it we cannot extol the Person of Christ? But the point here is who I am saying He is. Every one of us should be saying something about His personal greatness.

H.D'A.C. And we ought to be able to say something about Him to Himself. When the Lord asks the question Peter does not answer to all the people, he says it to Jesus.

J.T. "Who do men say that I am?" People were speaking about Him, and none of them could say a right thing about Him. Peter's answer shews the disciples knew something of His Person, because there is nothing said here about a revelation from the Father. It is more what any one of them could say about Him, because His works shewed He was the Son of God.

A.M. The man in John 9 says a good deal about him, and worshipped Him as the Son of God.

H.D'A.C. He does not say anything about this at the beginning of His ministry.

J.T. He gave them opportunity to know. The Lord's question was to bring out the apprehension they had acquired of Him.

Rem. It is a matter of spiritual intelligence.

J.T. Just so. The point is, am I observing who Christ is in my spiritual history and taking in the teaching?

N.McG. In doing that we should appreciate what the Father says about Him on the mount.

J.T. He made a selection according to the beginning of chapter 9 and took them up. "And after six days Jesus takes with him Peter and James and John, and takes them up on a high mountain by themselves apart. And he was transfigured before them: and his garments became shining, exceeding white as snow, such as fuller on earth could not whiten them". Now, how are they to behave up there? As Moses prepared Israel to enter the land in Deuteronomy, so the Lord here, before taking them up, gave them abundant training; Now they are tested by what comes before them on the mount, and they fail. They do not know how to behave themselves up there. So if I talk about going to heaven or even having part in the assembly, the question is whether I can fit in, whether I can take in the kind of manners and mode of procedure there. So what you get is, "He was transfigured before them ... . And there appeared to them Elias with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus". And note the appearing of Moses with Elias was to them. But they were not equal this scene; they talked about making three tabernacles. That will not do. It shews that they could not discern the greatness of Christ. No one could compare with Him at all. Peter had confessed the Lord's Person below, but was unable

to maintain this on the mount. All this is searching.

F.H.B. Clearly they had not yet come to see all things clearly.

J.T. They had had adjustment on earth, but they were not equal to the scene of glory on the holy mount. They did not understand; they failed in the test.

J.J. Would it be in Colossian language, "not holding the head"?

J.T. Quite. Not recognising the greatness of His Person.

P.H.W. Is there a good example of a young man who discerned things in 1 Samuel, where he said, "I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him", (1 Samuel 16:18). He discerned it for himself.

J.T. That is it. He said, "I have seen".

Ques. Would the test come out in the Song of Songs? The bride reaches the point that He is the altogether lovely One.

J.T. Just so.

P.L. Would you attribute importance to the special word as to Mark in Colossians? "Concerning whom ye have received orders (if he come to you, receive him)". Would the Colossians be helped in regard to Paul's ministry to them as to the glory of the Person, by Mark's word, what he would compose as touching the King?

J.T. Mark's gospel will help them surely.

Eu.R. What is the great gain of this incident in regard to levitical service?

J.T. To get an idea of personality, because we want to see how things are in God's realm, to get an idea of personality up there. So that you see those two great persons coming out and speaking with Jesus; the Lord, as one might say, taking the place of listening to them. They are speaking with Him, shewing the mutual feeling that exists up there, but with all that you must never

forget in the scene of mutuality that He is supreme,, Abraham excelled in a similar scene. He could discern who the Lord was of the "three men"; he did not put the other two on the same level with the Lord, whereas Peter did here.

H.E.S. Is the thought in (Numbers 3) on this line? "And the prince of princes of the Levites was Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest".

J.T. Just so.

J.C.S. It is very beautiful to see how Peter speaks in regard of this scene in his epistle. He changed his speaking then.

J.T. Yes; he speaks there of His majesty. I often question whether I have any idea of majesty. "Having been eye witnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain", (2 Peter 1:17,18).

Eu.R. So the gain of such a scene as this is very great to those who would serve. The impression received there would affect us, especially in our service.

J.T. That is it. Peter makes no allusion to Moses and Elias when he speaks of the holy mount afterwards. The disciples were not to speak of it till He was risen. His resurrection and the coming of the Spirit were needed to make them equal to such majesty and glory.

Eu.R. They would speak better and serve more efficiently as having been on the mount with the Lord, but for this they needed the Holy Spirit.

THE ABUNDANCE OF THE SEAS (5)

Mark 10:46 - 52; Mark 11:1 - 11; Mark 12:41 - 44

J.T. We observed yesterday that chapter 10 begins the second general division of the gospel. It is said of the Lord, "Rising up thence he comes into the coasts of Judaea, and the other side of the Jordan". Then later, verses 32 - 34, "And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem, and Jesus was going on before them; and they were amazed, and were afraid as they followed. And taking the twelve again to him, he began to tell them what was going to happen to him: Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be delivered up to the chief priests and to the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him up to the nations: and they shall mock him and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him; and after three days he shall rise again". These verses indicate what is now in view. The Lord had been labouring in relation to the sea, in connection with which there was no organised opposition, although there was opposition but now He is turning towards Jerusalem, and what we may see in our consideration of these remaining passages is the kind of material that comes to light in the blind man and the colt. We are now turned towards the recognised divine centre, but the facts developed shew that it was like "the hill of God" in the hands of the Philistine, in the enemy's hands, so that the Lord, in turning In that direction, asserts His rights. We are, therefore, in the presence of the full power of the enemy. That at the hill of God were outposts of the Philistines was a matter to be taken to heart; and the Lord, as facing all this, acquaints His disciples with what they might expect.

Eu.R. It is interesting that in invading Jerusalem the Spirit of God would draw attention to His coming first to the coasts of Judea and the other side of Jordan.

Would it involve that in overthrowing the Philistine element, holding things in bondage. God would open up universal blessing?

J.T. Exactly. He came in by way of Trans-Jordanian territory; He came in that way. That is what is meant, I think. He approached that way.

P.L. Are you connecting that with the experience of Israel? In regard of the Red Sea have we got more the expression "the way" and what lies in it; but in the crossing the Jordan with the ark the enemies are scattered. Is it the concentrated power against Christ here?

J.T. Yes. Jericho stands for that; so that you have the expression that he followed Jesus "in the way", meaning that he took that way. That is to be noted "the way". Approaching Judaea and Jerusalem on this line we are reminded of the power in which the land was taken. It was a question of the "Lord of all the earth" that is to say, the rights of God entered into the crossing of the Jordan and taking possession of the land. It was the "ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth", and those powers enter into chapter 10. The Lord approaches similarly, and He finds material at Jericho corresponding very much with Rahab. That is, the blind man Bartimaeus recognises the Son of David. It is not an ordinary person believing for salvation, but one who recognises in his faith the Lord's right to the inheritance. That is, you have material that will stand up against the opposition that now is evident, as with Rahab.

So the subjects dealt with in this chapter enter into this; the subject of marriage and divorce; and that of children; and the rich man whom the Lord is said to have loved all these enter into the position. The rights of God and His institutions are in view; and perhaps we shall be helped in taking up this section of the gospel if we take account of the testimony as involving all these things, but that in maintaining them we have to contend

with entrenched organised opposition. What belongs to the Lord by profession is in the enemy's hand. That is the position now. So, in turning our faces towards Jerusalem, as it were, the rights of the Lord come into view, and all has to be maintained in the presence of organised opposition. The hill of the Lord is in the enemy's hand.

Ques. Would the thought of Hebron help to illustrate it? "The name of Hebron before was Kirjath-Arba".

J.T. Well, it does; it had been held by a family of giants, (Joshua 15:13 - 15).

M.W.B. Do you mean that the situation becomes more defined both in the organised opposition and in the actual securing of the material?

J.T. Yes; Bartimaeus represents the material now. It is material of, as one might say, fighting ability, because he came into blessing against opposition. Difficulties were raised him and he overcame them whereas earlier, throughout the first section, there was a sympathetic atmosphere. In the cases mentioned the environment generally was sympathetic, so that the needy soul was helped to the Lord; but now there is opposition. Barriers are raised up, but he overcomes.

E.J.McB. Does he represent a case that is translated out of the authority of darkness into the kingdom of the Son of God's love?

J.T. Just so.

E.J.McB. So that he throws aside his garment.

H.E.S. Is the thought of Rahab that before there were material effects gained by God there was a great moral effect gained in her heart, and is that the character of the present moment?

J.T. Yes, it is power in the believer that overcomes the environment, because she was beset by deadly opposition to the people of God, but in her soul she had light as to what God did at the Red Sea, and what the people did to Sihon and Og. She had light as to the

power of God in the resurrection of Christ, and the power of the Spirit acting in the saints; and, alongside of that, a cumulative moral state, for she had the stalks of flax on the roof of the house; meaning that she was coming into unity out of the sink of corruption in which she had been, and she directed the spies to go another way. She had the principle in her soul of another way, not the ordinary way, and so she represents the kind of material that would stand up against the opposition, as she herself did. So the opposition here fits in with our present circumstances. The effect of our study of the first section should be to make us evangelical, but as the wealth is acquired, this opposition has to be met; because the wealth must be made to fit in with the rights of the Lord. He is the "Lord of all the earth", and His institutions must stand. Whatever was given from the very outset, every divine principle must stand; so that we hold to all these things in the presence of organised opposition to them.

E.M. Would it be an exercise to bring to pass that, which would be protective of what is so precious to Christ as the result of ministry?

J.T. Yes. So you are concerned now in moving on to Judaea and Jerusalem, as to whether the result of the ministry is able to take its place in conflict, for otherwise it will go under.

E.M. To be a "good soldier of Jesus Christ".

J.T. That is right, and to take your share in suffering.

Eu.R. It would be vain for me to hail Him as Son of David when others are refusing His rights, if I do not take my place in relation to those rights as an individual. I must not be occupied with what others are doing, but come under His authority, and I will find my place in relation to others on that line.

J.T. Quite. You stand by those rights and suffer if necessary. The blind man "saw immediately, and followed him in the way". "The way" is to be noted

here; it involves divine principles and their maintenance.

J.J. It is mentioned three times in the chapter.

Eu.R. Is it the thought that there were already others in the way? The disciples were wondering as they followed Jesus in the way, and so he would link on with them.

J.T. Yes, and then it says, "And as he went forth into the way, a person ran up to him, and kneeling to him asked him. Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" verse 17. Well, he did not hold in the way, although he kneels down. In the Establishment there is plenty of that sort of thing, and profession to be in the way, but riches lead this man out of it again, so that he is a discredit to it.

F.H.B. The way here led definitely to the cross.

J.J. Would it be like Mark's own history in leaving Paul?

J.T. He comes in later on, as the young man who fled because of the intense persecution and left the linen cloth. Mark is more a failing Christian but this man does not denote a genuine disciple.

R.B. Do you think that Moses had any light as to this when he said, "Shew me thy way"?

J.T. He wished to see it.

H.H. Do you not think that all these points we are going over in regard to the gospel of Mark suggest that Mark himself came into a much fuller apprehension of them. He had got to write about the things, and is not the gospel running rather on that line as brought before us for our education?

J.T. I am sure that is so. Moses, as was said, desired to see God's way; he saw it as on the mount of transfiguration.

A.N. Was there correspondence in the way the blind man addresses the Lord, and in what is seen in Rahab?

J.T. She had light corresponding with this. It is quite clear that this man had been the subject of a divine

work. Otherwise he would never, being a blind man, have been able to address the Lord in this way. It says, "Having heard that it was Jesus the Nazaraean, he began to cry out and to say, O Son of David, Jesus, have mercy on me", and then again as they rebuked him, it says, "But he cried so much the more. Son of David, have mercy on me". That is, he is shewing what kind of material is in him; and he therefore stands for what is to be relied upon, in the way the Lord was taking.

H.E.S. Is there the thought in addressing the Lord as Son of David that he felt the power of the kingdom, and knew the seriousness of the position in which he was placed?

J.T. It rather gives that impression. Whatever intelligence he had himself, the position of the confession here has relation to the rights of Christ, which is a greater thing than his need. Not that one would say much as to what he really understood, but the title by which he addresses the Lord is in keeping with the position; and that testimony comes out here; there is the acknowledgment of the Lord as the Son of David, although outwardly He was known as Jesus the Nazaraean. That is what was told him by those passing by, but he called Him Son of David, which shews there was a work of God there, that he had light in his soul. Therefore, it is a testimony in this particular setting, to the rights of the Lord and what was due to Him in Jerusalem. He would stand by that; because the next character is the colt, and he carries the Lord. All this has to be taken account of. He carries the Lord into the city of the great king, and the Lord is acclaimed in this relation, as borne by him into the city.

M.W.B. Do you think there is an analogy to the way the word of the Lord is spoken of in connection with Ephesus? "Thus with might the word of the Lord increased and prevailed". (Acts 19:20). It is the rights of the Lord in that respect.

J.T. Yes. That reminds one of what we have here very strikingly, because of the teaching that preceded it. The Holy Spirit first, in chapter 19, and then the teaching in the school of Tyrannus over a long period, and then the word of the Lord. It is not the word of God as in chapter 18, but the word of the Lord; His power to take up the inheritance.

M.W.B. I was wondering whether there is not a twofold usage of the title Lord in that regard? the general thought of the kingdom and then that almighty power that the word of the Lord has. Nothing can stand against it; His word is supreme.

J.T. That is an important distinction. The first is, in general, Romans, the second, Ephesians.

W.R.P. I have not got your thought with regard to the colt. Would you say a little more about it?

J.T. That is a very important item in the instruction. I think he is a continuation of Bartimaeus It is the idea that he is available: "The Lord has need of it". It is the creation really taken up in the colt, as you might say. No man had ever sat on him at any time, he had never been under man's training or yoke; so I think this section brings in the Lord's creational rights, as well as His royal rights.

W.R.P. Do you mean creation is made subservient to Him and His rights?

J.T. That is the idea. When crossing the Jordan it was the "ark ... of the Lord of all the earth", and this corresponds, so that His creational rights are in view in the colt. "The Lord has need of it". It was a colt; that is to say, when you drop down to the lower animals it is more the creation as such. Mark has that in view preaching the gospel "to all the creation"; and in this section creational rights are in view as well as His royal rights. They must and they will combine. Therefore, you see the intense opposition; because all these positions are in the hands of the enemy. You see how he has

invaded the marital institution and the family in chapter 10. These involve creational rights: "God made them male and female". The title Son of David implies His royal rights. These also are in view. We are now facing the combined opposition of Satan, because he has taken up all those things, he is entrenched in them.

Ques. Would the fact that this man is begging be out of keeping with the dignity of the "ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth"? He was sitting by the wayside. I wondered whether that would represent the moral work of God in his soul. He is near to the way, but out of keeping with the dignity of it.

J.T. I am sure that is right, and it marks many. But he is now coming into the kingdom, he will not be begging any more.

P.L. Was Timothy to be brought into the way? "Remember Jesus Christ raised from among the dead, of the seed of David, according to my glad tidings", (2 Timothy 2:8). Would that connect with the Son of David here?

J.T. It is remarkable that is brought in there, doubtless he needed to be brought into it more fully. So that 2 Timothy necessarily has the rights of the Lord in view in a day of apostasy. "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", (2 Timothy 2:19). It is a question of what is due to the Lord.

Eu.R. And would it be right to say for ourselves, that it is only as coming under the royal rights that we can fill out our place in creational rights?

J.T. Exactly. You feel the kingdom gives you liberty to revert back to the divine institutions and to hold them inviolate. That is an important part of the testimony, that the marital relation should be held as a divine institution, and that the family should be maintained accordingly.

Eu.R. So in Timothy you get those "forbidding to

marry, bidding to abstain from meats". All those things are safeguarded here.

J.T. Quite.

H.H. Do you not think the inheritance comprises creational rights and royal rights? The effort to keep Christ out would be a denial of both sides.

J.T. Exactly; so later on they discern He is the heir, and put Him to death, so that they should have the inheritance without any claim to it.

Eu.R. Is that all involved in the "Firstborn of all creation" in Colossians?

J.T. Yes.

H.H. Would not the conflict in the end of Ephesians have regard to the inheritance in the way you are looking at it, in the opposition to the testimony which has to be met?

J.T. Exactly; so that we are to stand: "Having accomplished all things, to stand" in the power of the Lord. It is a question of the Lord, as has been remarked as to (Acts 19). It is the Lord, not so much the kingdom, either in that chapter or in Ephesians. It is rather the military position, the "captain of the Lord's host", the power that is in the Lord against "the universal lords of this darkness", so that we are to have on the whole armour of God.

W.C. Is that why courage comes in in Joshua? "Be ... of a good courage".

J.T. Yes.

W.R.P. You connect all this with the inheritance?

J.T. Quite, it is the Heir here. He is to put us into possession. It is to overthrow the hostile power; so when the disciples in Luke come to Him and say that the demons were subject to them through His name. He says, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven". That meant the power that He had to meet Satan; it is what is involved in the Lord in the sense in which we are speaking; the power He has to deal with the "universal

lords of this darkness", and so angelic power comes in here. The Lord can marshal all powers in heaven and on earth, as the Lord, in a military sense; and hence you find Michael acting against Satan, but all under the Lord.

Eu.R. And in 2 Timothy the apostle seeks to make all that power converge on Timothy: "For God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power". Would that fit in?

J.T. Yes; and so every one naming the name of the Lord withdraws from iniquity. He has to contend with iniquity after he withdraws from it, but the Lord will support him in this.

A.N. Are the two chapters here set forth in principle in (Revelation 4,5)? In chapter 4 you get the creational rights secured: "Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were and they have been created". Then in chapter 5 you get the Lord presented as the "Lion of the tribe of Judah". That is, there are His royal rights as well as His creational rights.

J.T. That is good; and then in (Revelation 10) a "strong angel" comes down and places his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the earth and cries "with a loud voice as a lion roars". That is to convey the power there is under the hand of Christ; those mighty powers that are set in the creation itself are under His hand and will be used against the enemy. Satan may have something to do with the air, but it really belongs to the Lord, so the "living creatures" symbolise the divine power there is in creation, and which God has under His hand. John is forbidden to write what the thunders said, because it was not the time for it; but simply to indicate that the Lord has those powers under His hand, and will use them yet; what is available to us is the Spirit of God.

H.D'A.C. Why does He allude to angels in the word

connected with Nathanael? "Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man", (John 1:51). Why do angels come in there?

J.T. Does it not allude to (Genesis 28)? In that chapter the angels begin at the bottom of the ladder, meaning that they were perfectly conversant with Jacob. They had been attending to their ministry there. "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" (Hebrews 1:14). They were conversant with Jacob, and the thought is they carried up to heaven the latest information, so to speak. Not that God does not know everything; but to indicate to us the first hand knowledge there is.

H.D'A.C. So they begin at that moment.

J.T. It is not simply on the ladder as in Genesis, but on Christ. The angels of God were ascending and descending on Him, meaning that they were recognising the Person here, and that they begin from that time 'henceforth'.

H.D'A.C. And did the saints recognise from that moment who was there?

J.T. It was there. I have no doubt the bearing of it is millennial, because John 2 opens with the millennium, "the third day"; but still there is the fact.

H.D'A.C. They were under His hand then at any rate.

J.T. And they were recognising His Person. He was "seen of angels"; they were ascending and descending on Him.

Eu.R. And so at the end of this gospel He is sitting at the right hand of God; and Peter says, "Who is at the right hand of God, gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him", (1 Peter 3:22), would that fit in?

J.T. Yes. So He comes "with the angels of his power, inflaming fire taking vengeance on those who

know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ", (2 Thessalonians 1:8). That is future.

H.E.S. Is your thought that unless we recognise and submit to His rights we are not suited material?

J.T. Yes. You recognise them. What is so beautiful about Bartimaeus is that he emphasised the rights of the Person. He called for mercy, but he does not say, "Jesus the Nazaraean", but addresses Him as the Son of David. And then the colt taken up from the standpoint of creation, is the continuation of Bartimaeus. He is carrying the Lord into His royal city. Creation, as it were, like the living creatures in Revelation, is in sympathy, brought into accord with Him, and usable.

H.D'A.C. What are the living creatures? Are they simply symbolic?

J.T. I think so. There are four of them, symbols of the creation in its universality, and it is all secured through redemption.

Ques. Would you say a further word as to the organised opposition?

J.T. That is what we are in the presence of here. The Lord is acclaimed and carried into the city by the colt, and He looks around. "He entered into Jerusalem and into the temple; and having looked round on all things, the hour being already late, he went out to Bethany with the twelve". Then He goes back the next morning and curses the fig tree, there being no fruit on it. This is creational action. God can curse. "Cursed be the ground on thy account" was said to Adam. God has a right to do it. Judaism was fruitless, and He cursed it on creational grounds. He has a right to do that. Then He goes into the temple and He intimates His right there. The temple belonged to God. His Person shines out. He could go in and look round in the temple, and then curse the fig tree, and then go back again and clear out of the temple all that was contrary. He walks

about in it; there is majesty there; but it is God in His house; and He answers questions in it.

Ques. Had you in view the chief priests and scribes in speaking of organised opposition?

J.T. Yes. We are approaching all that here; but before we come to it fully, we have these wonderful things, indicating who was there.

J.J. The owners of the colt seem to recognise His rights, and the position of the colt tied up seems to prove they were true to divine principles.

J.T. That is important; and the immediate environment too should be noted, "Bethphage and Bethany, at the mount of Olives". "He sends two of his disciples, and says to them. Go into the village which is over against you, and immediately on entering into it ye will find a colt tied, upon which no child of man has ever sat loose it and lead it here. And if any one say to you. Why do ye this? say, The Lord has need of it; and straightway he sends it hither". Now you see there is a testimony to His rights. The blind man recognised His royal rights in the title he used, but now the blind man, so to say, is usable. That is the idea; the Lord can use him; only he is used as in relation to creation. He has a right to him as Creator.

E.M. Would the bringing in of the mount of Olives suggest that the power at the present moment lies in the Spirit?

J.T. That is the idea. It is in that neighbourhood. There is a group of places, Bethphage, Bethany and the mount of Olives, denoting a certain spiritual environment. It was there, and there is that same thing today, in the presence of organised opposition. We can reckon on a neighbourhood like this, where the colt is tied at the cross way, held there.

E.J.McB. Do you indicate that the Lord looks at Bartimaeus not only as one who recognised the rights, but who is in accord with those rights, in the scene in which he himself was created?

J.T. Yes; so that in the gospel according to Mark, the position of those secured is not only that they are redeemed, but they belong to the creation. We should recognise that: that the Lord has got creational rights over us, so that the whole position is clear. The creational position is clear, and then we are on redemptive ground as well.

M.W.B. With regard to service, do you wish us to gather that as considering these things we should have before us the securing of material that should recognise the two fold rights of the Lord?

J.T. Exactly; that is what should concern us now when our faces are turned toward the divine centre; because this section really applies to the church, although it is not brought in in Mark; for we cannot overlook what Matthew teaches us. The church is to replace Jerusalem; but it carries forward all the divine thoughts in Jerusalem; and as soon as you assert these the whole power of the enemy is against you.

M.W.B. So one should have this in the heart in any movements in service, not only the relief of man, though that is essential, but this securing of such persons as will maintain the Lord's rights.

P.L. Was Paul seeking to secure those rights in (1 Corinthians 11), rather the creational rights in the beginning of the chapter, and then the Lord's supper bringing in what would answer to the royal rights; would both be secured?

J.T. Quite so, the relation of God to Christ as Head is the full position of the creation. That is very helpful, shewing that this feature of the testimony marks us as we sit down to partake of the Lord's supper. Partaking of the Supper we are His through redemption.

J.J. What is the difference between rights and authority? Would you say a little about the authority in the end of this chapter? "By what authority doest thou these things?"

J.T. The Lord had rights in His own Person, and consequently authority, but direct authority is delegated, He had authority from God. Authority is delegated, but it would include His personal rights. While He retains man's place in His service His Person was in evidence throughout.

Eu.R. In regard to the Lord's rights as referred to in 1 Corinthians, as the commandment of the Lord, would they be necessary to govern the situation if we are to find this spiritual environment?

J.T. That is it. It is very necessary in view of what we have to contend with now in relation to the church, that we should understand the kind of material intimated in Bartimaeus and in the colt, because you have thus a means whereby the Lord is carried in face of the opposition. "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power". (Psalm 110:3). That is the principle here. The people were not willing, but the principle was there in some. It says of Bartimaeus that he cast away his garments, that would be the giving up of the old circumstances, and that he 'started up', meaning there was energy in the man. He started up at the Lord's bidding, shewing how heartily he responded to that voice. It is very beautiful.

F.S.M. You see the affection he had for Jesus, answering to the movements of the children of Israel when they went after the ark across the Jordan; and would the next thing be that he was liberated to carry that which was so precious to God?

J.T. That is it; the beautiful order seen here; there is liberty for carrying what is for God. So the creation is brought in as that which would support the recognition of the royal rights.

H.D'A.C. Is it not Jehovah coming into His temple?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. When He looked around in the temple and cleared it, it was regarded as His own. It is not called the temple of God here, as in Matthew, nor His Father's house, as in John.

J.O.S. Would verse 18 link on with that? It says that the chief priests and scribes feared Him.

J.T. Quite; the enemy was quailing before Him.

P.L. Would you get these thoughts in (Psalm 45)? "Thou art fairer than the sons of men; grace is poured into thy lips" is it the Lord appreciated as the Son of David by Bartimaeus? Then in the colt is it "In thy splendour ride prosperously, because of truth and meekness and righteousness", and then in regard of the enemies, "Thine arrows are sharp ... in the heart of the king's enemies"?

J.T. All that fits in here.

Eu.R. Why is the colt all alone here; its mother is not mentioned?

J.T. It is only in Matthew that you get the two. Matthew often brings in twos, because he has the church in mind as an organisation. That is, the principle underlying it is two. He uses both the colt and its mother in Matthew, but in the other gospels it is just the colt. I suppose Mark would indicate how one person can be used.

D.L.H. Do we not get the Lord's rights as Man here, as well as His royal rights; His rights as God and His rights as Jehovah? One of the rights of man was that he had dominion over the created things. Everything was under his hand and the Lord claimed that. It seems to be a simple illustration of how He asserted His rights as, I suppose, the last Adam in relation to creation.

J.T. Yes; He speaks of Himself as the Son of man at the beginning of the section. "Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man shall be delivered up", chapter 10:33.

D.L.H. So we seem to get here a kind of assertion of the whole circle of the Lord's rights: an unbroken colt, on which man never sat, was at once submissive and carried the Lord. It was a very remarkable thing from a human standpoint.

W.C. In Luke they put the Lord on the colt, but here "He sat on it" Himself. What do we learn from that?

J.T. "They led the colt to Jesus"; it was amenable, to being led to Jesus. And then they cast their clothes upon it, and He sat on it, He accepted this action too. So that the colt is usable with their clothes. He acts Himself here in using the colt; in Luke His dependence is more in evidence.

E.M. Would that be a progressive thought? Bartimaeus threw away his clothes, but here they utilise their clothes for His honour.

J.T. These are not clothes to be thrown away; they are suitable to be used by the Lord. Clothes denote our circumstances; sometimes our dignity. All should be available in the Lord's service.

P.L. Would you see in his service to Timothy Paul leading the colt to Jesus? And would Paul's ways in Christ be like the clothes?

J.T. No doubt; the testimony was thus carried by Timothy.

F.S.M. Is there a service today that would answer to finding the colt at the cross-way and loosing him and leading him to Jesus?

J.T. I am sure there is, because if he is tied there some hand did that for his good, he was held there so that when the Lord came by He could use him. Something had happened previously, and now the service of loosing and asserting the Lord's rights over him, and then the leading him to Jesus, may be well regarded as service to younger believers. They are held, it may be, by parental influence at the cross-way; for if the two ways meet, they may go one way or the other; but the tying prevents them from going the wrong way. Were it not that there is a wrong way the tying would be unnecessary.

Ques. Would you connect baptism with that?

J.T. Yes; your children as baptised are held. It is not

to be a ceremony with you. You bring in the principles of the kingdom and they would hold them.

J.J. "Have faith in God"; what place does faith have in all this?

J.T. We shall come to that more fully later; but it comes in here as the great thing for them. The Lord does not stop to answer their questions. Peter says, "Rabbi, see, the fig tree which thou cursedst is dried up", but Jesus answered, "Have faith in God. Verily I say to you, that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou taken away and cast into the sea, and shall not doubt in his heart, but believe that what he says takes place, whatever he shall say shall come to pass for him". Then He goes on, "For this reason I say to you. All things whatsoever ye pray for and ask, believe that ye receive it, and it shall come to pass for you. And when ye stand praying, forgive if ye have anything against any one, that your Father also who is in the heavens may forgive you your offences". Now, you have there what would remove this whole system of opposition. Faith will do it. Hence the prayer the spirit of forgiveness is very important in the midst of this inquiry.

G.W.W. Does not faith underlie all these instances we have had before us?

J.T. Surely; Bartimaeus and the disciples leading the colt to Jesus, and casting their clothes on it for Him, imply faith.

G.W.W. Would you say a little as to the last instance about the woman and the treasury? chapter 12: 41 - 44.

J.T. She represents what was there. She is not viewed as the product of the Lord's ministry; but she represents the remnant spirit, what is found there. What He acquired on the way was material to face the opposition, so that He is carried in on it, but what He found in Jerusalem is very touching. He found there something that was really greater than the temple itself; the basis, as we may say, for the new order of things. That is the next

thing, an element that is taken up with what is of God, her whole life devoted, as we can see, to what is of God. The temple at Jerusalem was too small for what shone in this "poor widow".

G.W.W. Would it be right to say there was the fullest recognition of rights there, because she recognised the rights of God to all that she possessed; that it was at the divine disposal? Might it be said, therefore, that she represents in a way the consummation of all we have been looking at?

J.T. Yes; the excellency of her action; it is a small amount two mites, but it represented great devotedness to God. It was not that the Lord had produced it; that is not the view-point here. He was looking on over against the treasury to see what was happening, and this whole-hearted devotedness was noted by Him. So it seems to me chapter 13 announcing the overthrow of the whole system, and then chapter 14 bringing in a new system of things, means that what this woman represents was too great for what was there. He would bring in another system in relation to the Lord's supper, so that there would be something sufficiently great for an action like this.

E.M. Would that link on with quality rather than quantity?

J.T. Exactly. The quality was so, great that the whole temple system would be overthrown it was not great enough for that. It was all there then and God recognised it, but there was to be something greater. Of course there were other reasons for the overthrow of the Jewish systems. The judgment of God required it.

R.B. Do you mean that this incident is not a development of Bartimaeus and the colt, but something fresh?

J.T. Quite; there was something there. The remnant for a new order of things always brings forward what preceded, what was of God; and this woman represents what was of God in the old system. What

the Lord brought up from Galilee is another matter. That was His own work, but there was something of God in the old system. It was very excellent, and He would make something suitable for it.

Ques. Do we see sacrifice as the basis of this action?

J.T. Quite; it was all her living, as the Lord says, the "whole of her living". It is love really; devotedness to what is of God, and that deserves something greater than the temple built with hands.

H.E.S. Is your thought that we have here not so much the wealth of the seas, but the wealth there in the remnant?

J.T. Exactly; what was of God. God has had something right down from the beginning, and it is always excellent.

W.R.P. And that something is to be carried into the new thing.

J.T. It is great enough for it. So that the next woman, we shall find, carries on this thought. The feminine side in this section will help us.

Eu.R. Then is this a remnant feature that we might covet to have in our day?

J.T. Surely.

G.W.W. Do you connect it at all with what we get in the opening of Acts, "Not one said that anything of what he possessed was his own", and it was in that way contributing to the advancement of what was then immediately in view.

J.T. And the Lord added to that those that should be saved. It was the greatness of the thing in (Acts 2). It no doubt extended over a considerable time, but it was to bring out the greatness of the pentecostal result. It was not a temple made with hands.

Ques. Then does Stephen give the next thing? Is his exercise an advance on what had been in the previous chapters?

J.T. I think so; his face shone as the face of an angel.

What is heavenly is suggested. The Lord had come in connection with the better and more perfect tabernacle, the temple at Jerusalem was not great enough.

J.J. One almost supposes the words of the Lord Jesus quoted in (Acts 20) concerned this act of the widow, "It is more blessed to give than to receive"; it is more connected with the assembly.

J.T. Quite; it fits in with the high level of Ephesus.

H.D'A.C. There is a scripture, which governs this march from Jericho to Jerusalem both in Matthew and Mark: "For also the Son of man did not come to be ministered to, but to minister, and give his life a ransom for many". And if we follow "in the way", this spirit will mark us.

THE ABUNDANCE OF THE SEAS (6)

Mark 14:1 - 9,32 - 2; Mark 16:9 - 20

J.T. We noted the poor widow at the end of chapter 12, so as to see the bearing of chapter 13, and then the action of the woman in chapter 14, as bearing on the new institution or order of things that is indicated in the celebration of the passover, and the institution of the Lord's supper. What was of God in the old system, seen in the passover, merged in the new, centring the Lord's supper. What was of God in the old system is undoubtedly expressed in this poor widow; and following upon the record of her action the Lord announced the overthrow of the temple. "One of his disciples says to him. Teacher, see what stones and what buildings! And Jesus answering said to him, Seest thou these great buildings? not a stone shall be left upon a stone, which shall not be thrown down". And then He sat on the mount of Olives opposite the temple. That system of things is to be demolished, and faith, according to chapter 11, would have it so; that is, faith in the saints in keeping with the mind of God.

R.G.H. Do you think the disciples were loth to leave the great stones and the buildings?

J.T. The remark of this one would indicate the hold these buildings had on him.

R.G.H. Because it says, "As he was going out".

J.T. As if in the disciple's mind they were leaving something of importance.

Ques. With reference to the widow's mites have you any thought why there are two? They are said to be "all her living".

J.T. No doubt there would be some testimony in the two. She might have kept one back, as we often do. She could have satisfied the most liberal prevalent standard of giving by putting in one of them, which would have been relatively a large amount; but the two

would mean she was whole-hearted. There were no afterthoughts with her. It was like God in His "unspeakable free gift".

Eu.R. Speaking of faith in chapter 11, would there be an allusion to Jerusalem when the Lord said that faith as a grain of mustard seed would cause the mountain to be removed?

J.T. Quite. Faith will not have the mountain in that sense. If faith is active in us, it will not have this outward thing that is so faithless and obstructive of the will of God.

Rem. Ananias and Sapphira kept back part (Acts 5).

J.T. That is a good example of what we are saying, Ananias "put aside for himself part of the price".

H.D'A.C. But this woman's heart was full. There was Jehovah in His temple, and it was worth while giving under such circumstances.

H.E.S. Are you suggesting that there is a danger with us of being occupied with material things?

J.T. I think the stones and the temple would be the religious Babylonish system; what is imposing and holds the natural religious mind. "See what stones and what buildings!" What is represented there has found an immense expression in christendom, and it holds the mind. People find it hard to leave; there is something there that holds them.

J.C.S. Is the temple here regarded as the work of the builders of that day, who disregarded the chief comer stone?

J.T. I suppose that is seen in Stephen's remarks, quoting the prophet, "What house will ye build me?" he widow's giving brought in the divine nature, what it is subjectively; and that requires, not a material building, not a house made with hands, but what is "greater and more perfect".

Ques. Is the thought here that all this stands in contrast to what is spiritual? It says, "He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple".

J.T. He is taking up His position in relation to what is spiritual. The mount of Olives denoted that there was to be a great spiritual structure, and that would be in keeping with the widow's offering. That is the position.

E.J.McB. You made a reference this morning to the hill of God. I wondered whether the idea here was taking the hill of God out of the hands of the Philistines?

J.T. That is it. Chapter 14 brings in another order of things, in which what the hill of God represents is carried forward. It is a position of strength; the church became that. Of course, that is more worked out in Matthew; but still we ought to have the whole truth in view in dealing with any part; and that, I think, is the setting here. The new order of things is in chapter 14, and the woman of that chapter has a great apprehension of Christ's personal dignity as God's servant she anointed His head. From her point of view He is capable, of introducing another system of things. Chapter 13 shews that the material system is to be overthrown; but the Lord is sitting on the mount of Olives, and we may say she anoints Him in that connection. That is, it is a spiritual thing now; He is to bring in a spiritual order of things; that which is fully to represent God, and which will be great enough to be the vessel of the divine glory throughout all the generations of the age of ages.

We are entitled to bring that in here, to get the full scope of the truth; that we may be great enough to have part in it, because it is greatness that is in view, and in the widest connection. It is the divine nature acting, the widow is acting like God. He did not spare; He held back nothing. The division of the money would enable her conveniently to hold back part, but she did not. God could have spared too; He could have spared His own Son, but He did not. The correspondence between God and the widow suggests the necessity for the new thing. Of course there are other thoughts, for the nature and purpose of God required the setting aside

of the old and the introduction of the new order of things.

P.L. So "God loveth a cheerful giver". Is that suggestive of the love of God for such a one, and that there was no cheerful giving in the temple? This must give way to a vessel that God would love in its giving the assembly.

J.T. What was said this morning in regard of the Lord's hitherto unreported remark and there may have been many of them in (Acts 20) is very suggestive. It fits in with the truth in its highest setting. It is the chapter that unfolds to us divine love working in the saints; the love in Paul's embrace, and then the love in the elders weeping upon him. It is in that connection you have, "It is more blessed to give than to receive"; so that one is on a very high level in giving on the platform of God in that respect. There must be an order of things in which such persons reside, and in which they have liberty and are to be free from criticism.

The amount spent in this anointing was liberal, and it was criticised; they spoke angrily at her. You cannot conceive of God allowing such persons to be forever exposed to angry criticism. He will have an order of things in which that sort of thing will be well spoken of, rather than discredited.

Rem. So there is "a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together".

J.T. Chapter 13 is the casting of them away, and chapter 14 the gathering of them together.

Eu.R. There is much hesitation with us in giving. We hold back, thinking of ourselves. And while going on with an outward order of things, there may not be the spirit of giving.

J.T. These two women bring us into accord with God. The one has wholehearted devotedness, and the other has intelligence, liberally taxing her means, but intelligent. She knew what she was doing; she did "what

she could". That is a principle in the new order of things, to do what we can.

Q.M.S. Do you think one woman gave her all to His interests and the other to His Person, and do the two things go together?

J.T. That is right. The first is what is of God, and the second an intelligent apprehension of what was set out in the Lord's Person. This is the kind of Person to serve God. He is her ideal. He is God's ideal. God had already anointed Him; now she is anointing Him; Shewing she had come into line with God as to the Vessel of His service. The widow had come into accord with God as to His nature, holding back nothing; that is the nature of God; His unspeakable free giving; but the woman in chapter 14 has intelligence as to the Person of Christ, that He is the One to serve. The earlier part of the gospel brought it out, and she is intelligent as to it.

H.D'A.C. The one leads to the other, of course.

J.T. Quite; they ought to be combined in us.

J.J. Is it not the spirit of (Psalm 41), the last Psalm of the first book, that marks this woman? "Blessed is he that understandeth the poor". It is the psalm too in which Judas comes in, "Mine own familiar friend".

J.T. Quite. The poor there is not the poor in the sense of poverty stricken people, but what Christ was here in spirit.

T.H.T. Would it be right to say that if the buildings are to be demolished (chapter 13), this woman would draw attention to the foundation? Paul speaks in (1 Corinthians 3) of the foundation that is laid, and then he refers to the saints as "temple of God". Is she on that foundation?

J.T. Quite; that is a good suggestion.

E.J.M. Is that why He speaks of "My body"? She pours it on His head, but He says, "She has beforehand anointed my body for the burial".

J.T. He adds to the woman's thought. He has a

vessel in mind, for the great thing God has in view is culminating in a vessel; that is, the assembly is finally a vessel for the glory. It is developed from the Lord's body, 1 Corinthians 10:16,17.

N.McC. Why is burial brought in here? What is the significance of it in Mark's gospel?

J.T. It would shew that the woman understood what was existing, that is, the murderous attitude of the Lord's enemies. "The chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might seize him by subtlety and kill him". She understood that. Murderous hatred of Him was the atmosphere around, and she proved that she was in complete identification with the Lord. She knew what was going to happen, and so it is the idea of embracing an opportunity. She might never have one again. She did it "beforehand". It was too soon literally, but it was accepted. It was the embracing of an opportunity to shew how she regarded Him; that in spite of the fact that He was the One invested with the service of God, He had to die. She knew what was existing. I think it teaches us not to let an opportunity pass; and how the Lord values the seizing of an opportunity that He affords us. It may pass away and we may not get it again.

G.W.W. All the other women were too late with their spices; they did not reach His body with them.

J.T. Quite; she had the advantage, being ready beforehand.

G.W.W. She seized the opportunity and it was the only one of doing it.

J.T. I do not suppose she got another.

W.R.P. Do you think it means that if the temple system of things had to disappear, the Lord had to disappear too, in that connection?

J.T. Yes; coming in as the Messiah He accepted the guilt of the whole system sacrificially and glorified God through death in respect of it. It is very affecting that as identifying Himself with the nation He had to go into

death. There could be no new system there could be nothing but eternal void as to the creation unless He died sacrificially. That is, chapter 14 could not be without the dying of the Lord; and this woman, therefore, is beforehand, and she expresses intelligence in her anointing. The Lord during the passover intimates that the purpose of God both as to Israel and the church is secured in His death.

W.R.P. This anointing would introduce the new thing, would it not?

J.T. That is the idea; and the Lord's commendation of her shews how intelligent she was. Some have an understanding of things beforehand, others afterwards, but it is very fine to understand and know what to do as but divine opportunities are afforded.

Ques. Why does Bethany come in in this connection, and also the house of Simon?

J.T. That has to be noted. It is a position of reproach: "Simon the leper" And then, as the woman in the temple represents what is of God in the old system, so Bethany represents the best of the remnant under the Lord's hands. This woman would represent that.

Ques. Would that touch our local setting in our meetings at all?

J.T. I think it does. There is a lot of instruction that may be followed up from the scene at Bethany. It denotes the place of Christ's influence in His lifetime here, in regard of the remnant; so that it is the intelligence side of the remnant; the woman in the temple is devotedness. They afford a blend that is to predominate in the new order of things. We need intelligence; and that is what the woman of Bethany had. It is a very fine action, because the Lord says it is to be mentioned wherever the gospel is preached; shewing how much it conveyed subjectively, and to save from clericalism. If this is announced wherever the gospel is preached, converts will never come under the influence of the

clerical system. They will recognise that this is the kind of ministry, and will refuse what is spurious.

D.L.H. Is there any thought here that "If even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer"? I mean, is the thought of burial the passing out from the scene even of Christ as after the flesh, in view of the introduction of Christ on a new platform.

J.T. That is most helpful. So that the new order of things is in the light of that action; it is Christ dead and buried; but then risen and glorified. Christianity is therefore Christ as He now is and where He is.

G.W.W. Why did you say this delivers us from clericalism?

J.T. Because she anointed, Christ. Clericalism is utterly out of accord with His ministry. Nobody would accept the clerical principle who understood this woman's act.

H.E.S. Why is she called simply a woman here and not named? Is it in any way an indication of the state that the Lord is looking for in us?

J.T. It is the subjective side. John brings out the personal side in naming Mary.

J.J. I suppose this intelligence will remain as long as the body of Christ is here, because the body of Christ being here, the temple is here.

J.T. John would shew how the temple enters into this. "He spoke of the temple of his body" which they understood after He was risen, chapter 2. The idea of the temple is the place in which light is, but the body is the anointed vessel. "The Christ" in (1 Corinthians 12) is the anointed vessel for diffusion of the light.

J.J. And entering into the thought of the temple and the body, would help us to exclude clericalism from our minds.

M.W.B. What will enable us to be intelligent beforehand? One feels that is a very important point you have

struck. Many are wise after the event, but to be wise before the event seems to be very desirable.

J.T. I think it is in the development of discernment. One has often thought of the divine current, the way it flows; and if you are in the right state you come into it without being able to explain perhaps, and yet what you are doing shews you are in it.

One has often used Peter at Joppa as an illustration of this. The end of (Acts 9) shews he was in the current of God's mind; he was not at Jerusalem. Earlier it had been said that the apostles were still there; but now we find Peter passing through all quarters, and he went down to Joppa, and was in the house of Simon the tanner by the sea; and the word to Cornelius was, "Simon, who is surnamed Peter". His movements are in keeping with what God is doing; and now he goes up to the housetop to pray, and becomes in an ecstasy, and the sheet comes down; so that he is made intelligent now as to what God is going to do. The sheet is the mind of heaven come down; and now he knows it directly. Before that he was in the current of the thing and ready for it, which is most important. As to any crisis there are those who look back and write tracts explaining things fully; but they could not write definitely in the actual crisis, because they were not in the divine current. It is a person in the current who has right instincts and sees at the time or beforehand what the drift is.

M.W.B. It is an immense point in service to be moving in the current, otherwise we may be too late as those other women were.

J.T. That is what this woman represents. She comes in beforehand; she is in the full light of the position instinctively. Perhaps she would not have said what the Lord said of her, but that was what her action implied, indicating the state she was in.

J.J. The Lord had shewn the current before; He had explained how He was to be delivered up to the chief

priests and scribes and put to death, and she was in the flow of that.

J.T. That is it exactly.

H.D'A.C. Faith does not anoint a dead Christ. Do you not think she had the light of resurrection?

J.T. No doubt. The Lord said she anointed Him for burial, but no doubt she had the sense that He would rise.

Eu.R. The gospel would go out from a complete vessel, so to speak. The Lord would secure the assembly according to Corinthians, and the light would go out from that vessel, the gifts being set in it.

J.T. That would result from what we have here.

N.McC. In regard to being in the divine current and availing ourselves of an opportunity beforehand, is that the force of the Lord saying, "Wheresoever these glad tidings may be preached in the whole world, what this woman has done shall be also spoken of for a memorial of her"? The gospel has to be accepted, as it were, beforehand, on the principle of faith.

J.T. Quite. The mentioning of her action, in the sense of the Lord's direction, at every gospel preaching.

Rem. I notice that the New Translation renders it "these glad tidings". I wondered if it was the gospel in the way that presents the attractiveness and worthiness of Christ, rather than the meeting of man's need.

J.T. Quite. These would be the things He had been going on with. He had served in the gospel; the gospel is almost personified in this book. It is the great feature, and He had been ministering it, and she recognised His proficiency in the service, and I think her action would save converts as they are instructed in the import of it. They would think of the vessel through which the light comes, and in which it is to be continued. There never should have been a revival of the system that is overthrown in chapter 13 in christendom, had what this

woman did been kept in evidence in the preaching.

A.N. In answer to a question as to the peculiar feature of this gospel J.B.S. once said it was as if the Lord said, I serve a poor sinner in such a way that I make a poor sinner love me, and this woman is an example of this and so she is prepared to expend the ointment upon Him.

Ques. Would you say that the woman got intelligence from sitting at the Lord's feet?

J.T. No doubt. We are not told who she was. If it were Mary of course that would be absolutely true.

A.S.L. Is it open to all the saints to be in the current which, as you have said, is a very important matter to be in the current of what God is doing, and would that be tantamount to being led of the Spirit, the normal spiritual state, so that, if any crises or difficulties arise, being in the current you would detect what the difficulty was?

J.T. Exactly. It is most important to have that before us. We may see in verse 12 that the new order of things developed out of the passover. It says, "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they slew the passover, his disciples say to him. Where wilt thou that we go and prepare, that thou mayest eat the passover? And he sends two of his disciples, and says to them. Go into the city, and a man shall meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him. And wheresoever he enters, say to the master of the house. The Teacher says. Where is my guest-chamber where I may eat the passover with my disciples?" Throughout this chapter and the next, one sorrowful feature is the poverty of the material that He had, after all His influence over them, and training in general, how poor they were. Judas appears as the traitor, of those actually selected by the Lord; but in spite of all this in His own followers, He now introduces something as to which He can say, 'My' My guest chamber, My disciples, and every heart that loves Him

yields to that. He has something He can call His own, and that is what runs through the new order of things, that is, the church. It is what He has. His own possession.

H.E.S. Are you suggesting that if we are brought into the full appreciation of Christ as this woman was, we shall also love all that is His own?

J.T. Yes. He is now indicating His supremacy; and He sends a message, "The Teacher says. Where is my guest chamber where I may eat the passover with my disciples?"

M.W.B. Is this the region to which you referred this morning, where His rights are secured?

J.T. Just so. He asserts, them in the colt; but now He is asserting them in a man who had a house in Jerusalem; and it is 'the Teacher' who sends the message and He ask for 'My guest chamber'; as if He had such latitude there that He could speak thus; and then of 'My disciples'.

H.D'A.C. In a city that would not give an inch to Christ He could find a large upper room and call it His own.

Ques. Is that seen in the overcomer in Philadelphia?

J.T. Yes; Philadelphia would afford room for Christ. Whatever the overcomer has he would yield to Christ. It belongs to Him and that is what love owns; so that now He has a guest chamber, and He has got disciples; and His thought was to link up with them the history of Israel in a spiritual sense. It is all to be gathered up in this new order of things. He partakes of the passover with them, which was really the beginning, of the nation, so there is nothing lost. All the rest is simply let go; it is man's doing, but He takes up all that was of God, and carries it through.

Eu.R. So that the testimony is never broken.

J.T. That is it; it is important to keep that in mind.

Ques. Is that the point to which the material has to be brought, 'My disciples'?

J.T. That is it. You can understand how such persons as Bartimaeus and the woman that anointed Him would fit in; how they would readily recognise the Lord's claim to what belonged to Him, and what could be greater than to belong to that new order My disciples?

E.S.H. Isaiah says, "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples", (Isaiah 8:16).

J.T. There it is. The whole testimony is now bound up amongst them, but He is beginning, most touchingly, at the passover. I suppose there had never been one like it; and He says, "I will no more drink at all of the fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God".

Ques. Why is the memorial absent from the Supper in Matthew and Mark, and connected with the woman in both cases?

J.T. Luke alone affords the memorial side, as emphasising the Lord's absence, in keeping with Paul. These two earlier gospels are more in keeping with the ministry of the twelve, and whilst they make provision for the church, they do not emphasise the Lord's absence.

Rem. The woman in that sense suggests the affections of the saints. Himself borne in their affection rather than in the memorial itself.

J.T. Quite. What you get in Matthew and Mark, in that respect, is the idea of the Lord's body as food because the testimony to be borne is onerous; Matthew and Mark give more the full measure of the opposition, in connection with which the testimony is to be rendered. It is not so much the memorial of Christ, but whether you can go through, and carry the idea of a vessel through, and escape the influences of the current religious system. That is what is in mind in the thought of food. The body is food; it is not His flesh here, but His body. "Take this: this is my body".

Eu.R. He would have us go in the strength of it, so to speak.

J.T. Yes; the food that is suggested here.

Eu.R. "With bread he strengtheneth man's heart", (Psalm 104:15).

J.T. Well, quite. So you go on from that to the mount of Olives. That is, what Christ is in His body, and what God is in the covenant, leaving out the memorial side. Those two things appear in the institution of the Supper in Matthew and Mark, and from that we go to the mount of Olives meaning that that alone is sufficient to maintain us. That is the Spirit, because this mount would mean that all must be in spiritual power.

J.J. Would that be also seen in the way they went up, singing a hymn? In the face of what was before Him that was a marvellous thing.

J.T. And that brings up David's ministry, which strikingly involved power. The whole force of the enemy was brought to bear on David, but in spite of that he introduced and maintained the service of song. It is in the sense of victory, and consequent liberty, that they can have recourse to singing. How can we sing unless we are free? It was the power of David's kingdom that set Israel free for that. They sang at the Red Sea, but it was not continued. It brings out the power of Christ as the true David, that He can inaugurate a system in which God is praised in song. But they go on to the mount of Olives from that point; the spiritual trend is now upward. Thus the Jewish remnant, merging into the church, became liberated from the earthly reprobate system. It was by the power of the Spirit.

H.H. This singing would suggest the holy sufferings of Christ put into song, so that every heart in its measure could join in it.

J.T. That is what the Psalms mean. David was the "sweet psalmist of Israel"; he brings out the holy sufferings of Christ. The singing is a very suggestive thing in Matthew and Mark. We might have expected it in Luke; but in Matthew and Mark it is in the presence

of the greatest possible pressure, the whole power of evil combined there against Christ, and that is what David stands for confronted by all the power of the enemy he could be the "sweet psalmist of Israel".

Ques. Is it not rather striking that they sung a hymn and not a psalm?

J.T. Quite. I suppose the idea of a hymn is what is for God. David provides for the service of song and maintains it in the order of the twenty-four courses. It is an important feature of the position today.

D.L.H. Do you not get the singing at the beginning of Luke's gospel? You have Zacharias and then Mary and Elizabeth, all with something to say. They are all on the song line.

J.T. There are priestly contributions. And so with the angels, but it is rather what was said. What comes out at the beginning of Luke is the spiritual buoyancy of things. We have poetic contributions Godward in the beginning of Luke in Mary and Elizabeth and Zacharias and Simeon. Poetry would convey the outgoing of feelings, but singing is beyond that.

R.B. You spoke earlier of the teaching. Have you in mind that poetry is the outcome of embracing the teaching?

J.T. It is, but there is the additional idea of music. What is said in poetry is not in itself music. We have not only the poetic composition with David, but the singing and "the chief musician".

M.W.B. Is it the expression of feelings?

J.T. Poetry is the expression of feeling, but singing is more so, the person of the singer is more in evidence, the living voice expressing the person feelingly. Directly a composition is set in music it is capable of carrying our feelings to God in an acceptable way. I believe that is the force of it, and that is what you get here. It is mentioned that they sung a hymn. It is more to bring out the mutual side of things with the

feelings of the moment, how the spirit of Christ prevailed, expressing itself in this way. There were precious mutual feelings. They sung a hymn and went to the mount of Olives, a most beautiful movement.

A.S.L. It is a very different thing to get up and read a very beautiful hymn from the whole congregation joining in the singing of it.

J.T. One has heard a hymn given out that could not be sung a tune not being known and then read, but the effect was flat indeed. It is not only the words but the united voices of the singers that God values.

H.E.S. Are you suggesting the intelligence of the woman enters into the capacity to sing in this way?

J.T. I think she is representative of the spiritual state that is there and which is capable of being drawn into His company so that they do it; there was a merging in affection there, that they unite in the thing.

A.N. Is the singing suggestive of a state that exists, or is it to reach a certain state?

J.T. I think it may be both. It is the outcome of a right state existing, but this is enhanced in the service. One has often felt that.

H.D'A.C. If there is a desire to celebrate God, the Spirit that creates that desire will also give the form of words in which God is to be celebrated.

Ques. Would Miriam express that? "Sing to Jehovah, for he is highly exalted".

J.T. Quite; she represents the subjective state, for all the women of Israel are with her in her service. But the song of Moses and the children of Israel in the first part of (Exodus 15) is more objective. It is Moses leading; but when Miriam comes out with the women following her, we have the general state for the moment indicated.

R.G.H. The singing of Habakkuk is the result of exercise.

J.T. And he advances in it. Habakkuk begins lower, but he ascends to a stringed instrument. That is, there

may be advance in the singing. Habakkuk ends: "To the chief Musician. On my stringed instruments".

A.N. What was behind my question was that at times there is singing to excess, which tends to lower the spiritual state of a meeting rather than to raise it.

J.T. Yes; I think the hymn-book is too much thumbed at certain pages. We have got on a high level theoretically as to the hymns we give out, but there is a lot of wealth in the hymn book that is not utilised, just as in the Scriptures Some hardly ever read the old Testament, whereas it is full wealth; and I think the hymn book is treated in the same way. I believe the Lord would teach us to utilise what there is, so that there may be variety.

Ques. Is a spiritual song an advance on a hymn?

J.T. I should not say that.

J.J. In (Colossians 3) it is, "Singing with grace in your hearts to God", which proves what was said.

Ques. Is there a special connection between the cup and the singing?

J.T. There is, for it conveys the new covenant. "This is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many". So that would enter into it; in fact, rather confirm what has been said that what was sung, was sung to God, because the covenant brings in God.

Rem. It would induce a song.

J.T. Yes; what God is, coming into the heart.

Eu.R. It is very affecting that the Lord should lead in this just before Gethsemane.

H.H. What about asking unconverted people to sing at a gospel meeting?

J.T. But you do not ask unconverted people to sing. The idea is that the Christians present sing. If the unconverted people join in that is their affair; they are committing themselves. It puts them under responsibility.

M.W.B. You referred earlier to the Levites as in

Numbers, and then to the Levites as in Joshua. Would the one rather bear on the first part of these remarks you have made in these meetings; and then the Levites as in Joshua, secure and maintain the spiritual side?

J.T. Quite; I think that is good; that part of their inheritance which refers to the sanctuary. I suppose Luke rather develops the heavenly levitical side.

W.C.G. Is there importance in what is spoken of in 2 Chronicles, that when the singing reached one sound, then the glory of the Lord filled the house?

J.T. Does that not shew what music is to God? not only the composition, the words themselves, but the music; there were not four thousand composers of psalms, but four thousand singers, shewing the importance of singing.

R.B. Why does it say, "The singers went before, the players on stringed instruments after"? (Psalm 68:25).

J.T. Singing is a vocal expression; the person who sings is expressed, as already said. A stringed instrument would mean the ability of the person to sing and play together, to use the words as well as the music; but a wind instrument limits you to the music. The stringed instrument brings in more the intelligence of the singers; and I have thought that 1 Corinthians -- some of us were speaking of it lately -- at the end brings in divine sentiment; it brings in the stringed instrument in the great place given to resurrection. After all the directions as to the order of the assembly, then you have the resurrection; and after that the first day of the week; as if the occasions for sentiment that should be expressed in singing were all there, but the Corinthians were not using them. I mean, the first day of the week is one of the finest elements as to sentiment that can be brought into the singing, because of such memories, such evidence of life in Christ, and the bearing of the love of Christ, and of the love of God. An eternity is in view and singing ought to be the outcome of that.

Ques. Would the first day open up a new period?

J.T. It opens up eternity, that is what we should be looking into. The eighth day indicates a new period or departure in God's ways.

Ques. What was the song of the Lord in Hezekiah's day in connection with the burnt offering? What aspect would that bear now?

J.T. I suppose it shews the intelligence and spiritual wealth of the moment, the place that David's ministry had. David's ministry in the Old Testament corresponds pretty much with Paul's in the New Testament; full recovery would include this.

Ques. What would be the glory coming in? (2 Chronicles 5). Would it be God Himself giving us the sense of His pleasure in our song? Do you think we should have some sense of that when we raise our songs, of what His feelings and pleasure were?

J.T. I am sure we should. I suppose when we come to Gethsemane we get occasion for notes that we do not get elsewhere. We have already touched on the feelings of Christ; and if our songs are to have any depth we must enter, into Gethsemane; because the composition, the actual wording of hymns is important. Depth of feeling is what marks the psalms, and I think Gethsemane and the cross afford the field in which to move if we are to acquire depth of feeling. There is the height of things, which I think most of the hymns we have had for the last quarter of a century are occupied with, and rightly; but there is also depth in divine things. "That ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height", (Ephesians 3:18). One feels the early hymn writers had more the thought of depth and piety, with little idea of length and breadth and height, and they are defective on that account. But they have the depth, and I believe Gethsemane and the cross afford the field for us to acquire depth of feeling, giving tone and body to our worship.

H.H. Will not the remnant as set out in the Psalms discover in a time to come that, although they have gone through, or may be going through much suffering, yet the Lord Jesus has gone through much greater suffering for them? Will there not be with them the depth of feeling, and consciousness in their own spirits of how Christ has suffered?

J.T. Yes; and the Psalms will help them; but we have occasion in our dispensation for depth, of feeling that neither the Old Testament saints, nor the remnant in the future can have. Paul led the way in this, the Lord saying, "I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name".

J.J. Does this expression, "Abba, Father", which the Lord only uses once, shew the depth of His feeling?

J.T. I was going to note that. It is formally used of Him only, although Christians use it (Romans 8:15). And you have the original word He used. I think it is a question of standing alongside of Him and entering into His feelings and affections.

Ques. Is there depth in the song of the twenty four elders in Revelation?

J.T. Quite; I should think that would fit in here.

Rem. Peter and James and John were taken to Gethsemane, as well as to the mount of transfiguration, both to the glory and to the scene of suffering.

J.T. That raises an important point as to refinement, as to that which excels. I suppose we may rightly take Peter and Paul, as representative of the excess of experience in the suffering of Christ; especially Paul, who is concerned to "fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly".

H.E.S. Are you suggesting that the use of all these original words in Mark's gospel would shew the depth of feeling that the Lord had, and that we should have similar depth of feeling?

J.T. Yes; the Holy Spirit carries them forward in the exact words used; and this is clearly that believers now should enter into their import and share in it.

F.S.M. Is there not a strong spiritual link between the gospels and the Psalms? Has it not been well said the gospels cite what the Lord passed through and the Psalms express what He felt when He passed through them? So should we not in our consideration of such a gospel as this, think of the psalms that express the Lord's feelings?

J.T. I am sure that is right. I confess I know very little of the Psalms, but I can see they are intended to promote intelligent and deep feelings in us toward God and toward Christ, also toward one another.

Eu.R. Is this part of the way the Lord had to take to remove the system of bondage and liberate the singers?

J.J. Paul carried forward the words, "Abba, Father". He entered into the sufferings and feelings of Christ more than any one.

J.T. Quite; Peter and James and John were there. In a very poor way, it is true; but undoubtedly they got impressions that remained with them.

Eu.R. We need ever to remember that the privileges into which we are brought, and of which we taste the enjoyment, have been at the cost of this of the sufferings of Christ.

J.T. Quite. In the last chapter we have brought out the slowness of the saints, our slowness in faith. This gospel greatly emphasises the want of faith in the apostles, but it would remind us that they were not singular in this respect. The want of faith is what marks us. So that the Lord upbraids them. It says, "Afterwards as they lay at table he was manifested to the eleven, and reproached them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen him risen". The need now is ability to accept the testimony. All we have is on the principle of accredited

testimony, hence the immense importance of faith; We must all be conscious of how slow we are in accepting testimony.

A.S.L. On the other hand we should be profoundly thankful that we have the testimony of living witnesses. They are worth listening to and believing.

Rem. And there is no breakdown in the testimony. It is maintained in all its strength, and we have it today.

J.T. The testimony goes on and it is a question of believing it. This last chapter greatly stresses faith. Unless we believe the testimony of God we cannot rightly present or maintain it.

A.S.L. Is not that the great test in these last days? The question is whether we are believers of the truth.

J.T. Quite so; and so you have the emphasis laid on the commission here. Believing and being baptised one is saved; disbelieving is condemnation.

J.J. Is verse 9 of importance? On rising from the dead He sees the object for which He had been into death.

J.T. That is what is meant by the great prominence given to the women at the sepulchre, on the morning of the resurrection, suggesting the great subjective result which the church represents.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN LUKE

Luke 1:35; Luke 2:25 - 32; Luke 3:21,22; Luke 12:11,12; Luke 24:48,49

I wish to speak about the Holy Spirit, encouraged in the assurance that there will be not only a readiness to hear, but a measure of capacity for taking in any thoughts presented as to Him. I believe that it is of God to emphasise the presence of the Spirit. Indeed, it has occurred to me of late that it would be a profitable inquiry to see how He is presented in each of the books of Scripture, and with this in view I Save ventured to take up Luke, so that we might see how the Holy Spirit mentions himself in this book. For we have to bear in mind that, whilst the Lord says of Him, "He shall not speak from himself", that does not mean that He does not refer to Himself, for in truth He is the subject of testimony, as the Father is, and as the Son is. Indeed, we are said to be baptised to the name of "the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". So that He fits in; He had His own place in the testimony; and I thought that the consideration of Luke in this regard would help us as to the dispensation viewed as in grace.

Luke is concerned as to how the gospel should reach men; the vessels through whom it should come; and so you find with him great prominence given to heaven, that the gospel should come to men clothed with heavenly influence. Hence, he introduces at once a great heavenly dignitary; for it was to be expected, we being what we are, that in the service of the gospel there would crop up a desire for personal distinction in it, such as painfully manifested itself at Corinth. So Luke would introduce the idea of personal dignity in Gabriel. Who of those at Corinth could measure up with him? The apostle in speaking to them refers to "the tongues of ... angels", but here we have at the outset presented to us, not simply an angel, but a heavenly dignitary.

But I did not wish to speak about that, nor about the

visitation from heaven which Luke records, most interesting as they are for he would clothe the gospel with personal dignity, and with a heavenly atmosphere; that the thing might carry with it all possible commendation nothing to forbid, nothing to prejudice, but all calculated to invite; so that the most might be saved, that the greatest possible result should accrue. One is impressed with the divine forethought and preparation recorded by Luke, so that the gospel should be untrammeled; that nothing should be attached to it or detract from it, so as to render it unacceptable. Hence the Lord Himself is presented in Luke as personally attractive in His preaching; the manner in which He read die Scripture and His deportment, both in standing up and sitting down, and in speaking all was marked by the grace that God intended should adorn the proclamation of the gospel.

Now I wanted to dwell upon the Spirit, as I said, and what impresses one at first is the filling by Him of persons. Indeed, Luke throws out at the beginning a sort of atmosphere which would disallow all corruption and render null all fleshly taint. The incoming of the Saviour was to be guarded thus; and so we have a remarkable set of vessels filled with the Holy Spirit; thus shutting out from the environment of the Lord's birth all taint of contamination; for a group of persons appear, filled with the Holy Spirit. It is an important matter; for a half filled, or partly filled vessel is sure to be contaminated. Hence you find the first mention of the Spirit in this gospel is that He fills a person from the very outset of his being - John the Baptist - a marvellous thing! There may be an inquiry as to its possibility; but how else can we explain the movements of an unborn babe, as the sound of the voice of the mother of Christ falls upon the ears of his mother? What can be the thought, but of wonderful divine preparation, so that the incoming of our Saviour in such lowliness and outward

weakness, should be so greeted and so protected, that there is the acknowledgment of Him in an unborn babe.

Then the announcement of Gabriel himself; it is most interesting and touching to note the manner of his address to Mary. And when I speak of Mary, the thought of secret history comes into one's mind, of secret history with God. Who can tell what that history was? The angel Gabriel -- his name is given -- says to her, "Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee". Can we doubt that He had been with her? Can we doubt that He had watched over her as a unique vessel? Can we doubt but that He went far up the stream in her line? Can we doubt that there was extraordinary preparation in her, to be such a vessel, to be so honoured, so greeted, so saluted, by a great heavenly dignitary? The proof of all this is evidenced in her calm and subject demeanour in such august circumstances. And then in answer to her remarks he refers to the Holy Spirit, who alone could bring about the great design of eternity. "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee". What a scene is suggested! An operation of operations, the like of which had never been known or thought of by men as such! The Holy Spirit had been employed in garnishing the heavens, and brooding over the face of the deep, and right along had been engaged in the divine operations, but now, there is an operation of operations: "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and power of the Highest overshadow thee, wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God".

I wish to dwell for a moment on this, that we may apprehend what happened. Gabriel says, "that holy thing". Had the angel said, That holy Person, or That holy Babe, the thought would have been weaker, but it is a question of what will be. We have to understand the distinction between what the Lord Jesus is, and who He

is. The former speaks for itself. It is something to be noted, it is absolutely, intrinsically holy. Holy babes relatively there were, such as the babes of believers, but not holy things. No person ever born before or since was a "holy thing"; there was only one holy thing it was absolutely, intrinsically, essentially holy. It is what He was, the marvellous production of divine power; and so we have here what in due course was called the "Son of God". That is to say, what He was soon manifested who He was. Hence His query of His disciples was as to who He was. It had come out; what He was had demonstrated itself, and now He is called "Son of God".

Proceeding from this passage I wish to shew you how He is guarded by the Spirit as a Babe. The idea of the thing being introduced is made clear, and then we have "a babe wrapped in swaddling clothes", as it says, "and lying in a manger"; and later brought up to Jerusalem. I wish to dwell on what was in Jerusalem, that is, "a man … whose name was Simeon". Jerusalem here is not yet viewed as hostile. It was still the centre for God on earth, and there are grouped here very precious features in this still divinely recognised city. One would love to be consciously in the centre; I believe God would have it so, that as giving us the Spirit He would link us on with the centre of His things. It delivers and saves us from mere localism and nationalism.

Mention was made to me a little while ago of a meeting in Scandinavia far away in the Arctic circle, the only one there, yet some one who had been there had said that he felt at the centre of things as among them. Look at that! Not that one would wish to occupy you with those dear brethren unduly, but what can it mean but the evidence of the Spirit of God, for what are miles to Him! what are geographical distances to Him! As we are in the Spirit we are in the centre of things, and so Simeon was in the centre of things. He was in Jerusalem. That is what is said of him. Spiritually everything

gravitates there; and as in the centre of things we miss nothing; current spiritual events are known to us; we are conversant with them. Anna was there too, and she missed nothing. Then it says of Simeon that the "Holy Spirit was upon him". Now you have not only the vessel filled that idea is in chapter 1 but a vessel anointed; and that one in the very centre of things, who has the mind of God; to whom it had been revealed that "he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ". And "he came in the Spirit into the temple", and, as there by the Holy Spirit, the Child is brought in, and he takes Him in his arms.

I wish to dwell upon this because the opposition now is on account of the smallness of things outwardly. This marks our own times; how much therefore it is incumbent upon us to recognise the Spirit, the anointing; so as to be able, so to say, to hold the Child. I allude to the Child for a moment as referring to the outward smallness of things; but how intrinsically precious at this moment! What a spectacle for heaven to see the priest with the Child in his arms, in the full light of God regarding it! What an awful darkness is spread abroad today around us, especially with regard to the Person of Christ! The best refutation of the error is the priest with the Child in his arms, and the light of God in his soul regarding it. It is God's salvation, and God's salvation seen. What a word that is for us as the powers of darkness are felt abroad!

As Samuel took a sucking lamb and offered him up a whole burnt offering to the Lord, having poured water upon the ground in acknowledgment of abject weakness, God thundered on the Philistines and routed them. It is the holding of the Child, as anointed by the Spirit, with the light of God in our souls, that routs, the enemy. I believe the Lord is doing this in a little way; I believe the Child, so to speak, is in the hands of holy priests at the present time. One would love to see it more definitely.

Then there is the blaze light in Simeon's references to the Child as blessing God everything is made clear. "A light for revelation of the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel". The former is the very word that covers our present position as in this dispensation; the revelation or unveiling of the gentiles still holds. God is God, and the dispensation remains unaltered. The patience, of God is marvellous, that the world is still in reconciliation; and God would put it upon us to maintain it in every way. It may be in smallness, but the character of the thing, the principle of it, is never to be let slip. It is the gentiles' day. The glory of God's earthly people is imminent. Christ is that. We know it; we have got the light that Simeon had in our souls. We know what is coming; the glory of God's earthly people, for the fathers- sakes, is near. No one can be with God without cherishing that testimony, "for the fathers- sakes"; and Christ is indeed seen here in relation to the house of Jacob in this book; He is the glory of God's earthly people Israel.

Now I pass on from this. We have viewed Christ in outward weakness; we have held Him, as it were, in our hands and blessed God! How much enters into this! Our very assembly privilege, as well as our public testimony, is in the Babe in our arms. We stand by Him. The sword may pierce through our souls, but our privilege is to stand by Him. But I pass on to the position in chapter 3, involving the full position of the Holy Spirit in a vessel. God gives us a view of that. The church is that now. We do not and cannot see it concretely, for it has failed outwardly; but the Holy Spirit in this regard gives us Christ as the Vessel great enough to receive the Spirit, and to move by His power, for that is how Luke presents the subject. He is a dependent Man, and comes up out of the water praying, and sees the heaven opened, and the Holy Spirit coming down in bodily form as a dove and resting upon Him. It is

the Spirit, the Person, as I may say, in His entirety in that Vessel.

And then He began to be about thirty years of age. That comes in afterwards, as if you have the full thought of manhood there, with the Holy Spirit upon Him. There is nothing to grieve the Holy Spirit in that blessed Man; for one idea of a dove, as I understand it, is sensitiveness; love doubtless too, but extreme sensitiveness. There was nothing there to grieve the Spirit in the least degree. All the fullness, we are told, was pleased to dwell there. Who can compass that? But there it is. The words "of the Godhead" have to be added simply to make the force clear in English, but the word is "For in him all the fulness was pleased to dwell", (Colossians 1:19).

But then He moved in the power of the Spirit. In chapter 4 we read, "But Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan"; so that, in this wonderful picture we see what we do not see now in the church. It was seen at Pentecost, but here we see the full thought of God in a Vessel. He is about thirty years of age, and He moves by the Spirit. He returns in the power of the Spirit from Jordan, and is led by the Spirit in the wilderness -- that is the force of it -- to be tempted of the devil. He returns to the conflict in the power of the Spirit; for that is how Luke presents it. So He goes into the synagogue at Nazareth, and we have that beautiful picture which every preacher of the gospel should consider before preaching the way in which He read the Scriptures and spoke. I think you have in these three settings the Holy Spirit as God intended Him here in the testimony, as the means for the maintenance of the dispensation of grace. It is not in speaking only, it is in being the thing, filled, anointed, and then all that shewing itself in our demeanour, as in our preaching. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings". There was present in Him the full evidence of this.

Well, I may refer to other passages than those I read, and there is one in chapter 11 that we should notice; that is the desire for the necessary furnishing, in view of our assembly gatherings. The early part of chapter 11 has reference to the furnishings in a locality. I cannot go into details, it has often been spoken of, but it comes in now in relation to what I am saying as meeting current conditions; calculated in a very distinct way to order and furnish our meetings; that we should know how to come together in the light of the church, agreeably to heaven. It should not be mere crystallised routine, but in the freshness of the Spirit; and hence the Holy Spirit is presented there as available for the asking. I refer to that, for we all should be concerned as to our local furnishings, and that is the way to meet them. They are to be met in the power of the Spirit of God.

Then in chapter 12 there is the public testimony which rightly follows; the inward order and furnishings corresponding with heaven as by the Spirit of God; and then the public testimony; how we are to behave, as brought before magistrates and authorities and the like. True enough we know little of that; there is very little of it today. In fact, I suppose the Lord means that when He says to the remnant in Thyatira, "I will put upon you none other burden. But that which ye have already hold fast till I come". He has made a wonderful way for us, so that the authorities leave us alone; they are not opposed in general. That is of God. We accept it, we pray for them; but then there is the idea of public testimony that will incur persecution, and chapter 12 presents this. So the Lord says. Do not think of what you are to say beforehand, for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour. It is not simply that He gives us what to say, but He teaches us in that hour.

That is an important matter. It supposes that we have already been accustomed to be taught. Of all persons in the world, Christians understand teaching, for they have

got to unlearn and learn so much. Before conversion we know nothing at all spiritually; we have everything to learn; and so there is the teaching of grace, which is first, the teaching of the Lord, and the teaching of the Spirit. When the Levite is in the service and comes under reproach, and has to make answer, he has got to be a quick learner, and he can be as in the divine school. It is not a short course merely. Let no one assume that the scholars of the world learn everything in the college. They learn there of course, but they get principles of education, and learning goes on all their lives and they acquire the way of learning quickly. So it is in Christianity; we have to come to the idea of quick learning, not simply hearing continuously, but learning at once. That is acquired ability; that you can learn in a moment; and then there is the teaching corresponding with this, so that the thought comes to you and takes form in your soul immediately. Who can effect that but the spirit of God? Who else can teach you in the very crisis, when you have just got to make your answer? Not only does He put the word in your mouth, but He teaches you what to say, and it would stand in relation to all the truth; it is not an isolated thing. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of truth", and He teaches in relation to the whole, system of truth; and He can do it quickly.

We have remarkable examples in Paul's defences, say before the emperor, or Agrippa, or before the Jewish council. I would commend to you all the study of those defences, of the great witness of Christ in the testimony. How the Holy Spirit gave him the thing, and taught it him, as I may say. I would love to dwell on the speech before Agrippa; and then what he says when "At my first defence no man stood with me". Undoubtedly it was the right word, got for the moment. "But the Lord stood with me", it says, "and I was delivered out of the lion's mouth". You may depend that the answer was Spirit taught. All forsook him and fled; alas! that there

was such cowardice at that moment; but the Lord stood by His great witness.

I want to go on to the last scripture, and what I wish to dwell upon in closing is "the promise of the Father", how the Father is brought in at the end, so that we may see fully what the dispensation is. It is "The promise of my Father", but before that the Lord says, "Ye are witnesses", not yet "My witnesses". That is to say, it is not here that He is calling them to the witness stand; the point is that they were eye witnesses. In the Acts it says, "Ye shall be my witnesses", but here the emphasis is on them, on what they were. The New Translation shews that 'Ye'. They were cognisant of what appeared in the Lord's ministry; they have not only been to school, but they have seen things. They were not hearsay to them. We should learn to see things, so as to become witnesses of them, that is, persons competent to speak of them as knowing them. That is the idea. But then that is not enough. To be sent is another matter, jailed into the witness box. And so the Lord says, "Behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you".

Now you see we are in the presence of the Father. This is the closing touch, that is to say, it is God in grace and in love too. It has been remarked that the name always stands in relation to grace. "The Father judgeth no man". Here we have His promise. What is the promise? Some inquire. What is the unspeakable free gift? It is better to let it stand as it is and rest in it. It is an unspeakable free gift of God, for who can compass the extent of the unspeakable free gift of God? It is better to live in it. That is the idea; for the dispensation is impregnated with the idea of an unspeakable free gift, and that must entail the Spirit. There is the gift of the Son for us, and the gift of the Spirit to us The one enhances the other, so to speak, and together you have the fulness of divine giving. What a weight of glory rests upon us as having the Spirit of God!

So the Lord here says, "Ye are witnesses"; you know these things, but He adds in effect. Do not attempt to speak about them until the promise of the Father comes upon you. What could any one of us do apart from the Spirit of God? Even although the disciples were witnesses of the most marvellous powers, yea, the very vessels of those powers, yet the Lord would not allow them to speak of them until they received the promise of the Father. So the testimony is to be presented in the power of the Spirit of God. There is no other way. Anyone attempting witness apart from the power of the Spirit of God, discredits the thing that he presents. Even a Peter, a James, or a John, although having been on the mount of transfiguration, could not preach the gospel rightly without the Spirit of God.

So that He says, "Tarry ye in the city", meaning that it is not now a question of going a journey, as in Matthew; not a question here of the exercise of the servant to get his 'word', but what comes in sovereignly. We can reckon on this, it is a question of promise. I have not got to work for something that is promised me; it is a question of promise, and what a promise! "The promise of my Father", He says, that is to come upon you; and then, "But do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high". There are the two thoughts, the promise of the Father bringing in all that the Father is in grace; and then the power from on high, that is, moral elevation. Literal elevation to be sure, but it is moral elevation here also; it is "from on high". Hence the witnesses do not descend to the level of man, or the world, in their testimony.

Then the word here is 'clothed', "till ye be clothed". We were speaking about the Lord's clothes today, what was said being very suggestive. Clothes do not convey the idea of acts of power. That is, a man acts by his hands, and so on; the hands are the symbol of a man's power to do things; but when curative effects are seen through

the garments, that is another matter. It raises the question as to my circumstances, what is round about me. So the whole position is "from on high"; it is not only while one is preaching the gospel, or doing things as with your hands, but power emanates from your very clothes, so to speak. In fact you have "greater things" in the Acts even than with the Lord. The people brought out the sick on couches, so that the very, shadow of Peter might fall on them. That indicates how things stood, what mighty power was there, not only in the preaching, but going out from the apostles; they were thus clothed. And so with Paul; napkins and aprons taken from his body were laid upon the sick and they were cured. The Spirit of God says that these were "no ordinary miracles"; they were extraordinary; they were miracles going out from the bodies of the apostles, from their clothing. God wrought them for the sake of the testimony. The maintenance of it is not only in the preaching, but in the persons and circumstances of the preachers, indeed of the saints generally. Power should go out from us, and it is power "from on high". Hence things are carried through. Luke would help us to understand the ministry of the Spirit, and to rely on it, so that the testimony should go through until the end.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IN ROMANS

Romans 5:5; Romans 8:14 - 16; Romans 14:17; Romans 15:13

My wish in regard of this meeting is to help more particularly those who are younger among us. We have not especially thought of them in our meetings, for this has not been a young people's conference. It had all grades in the family of God in view; for John, who is the family man, grades the saints fathers, young men and children, and these grades should be in mind in ministry. It is the last grade that I have in mind at this time, and for this reason I have selected Romans, which is particularly calculated to meet the needs of young believers.

My thought is to speak of the Holy Spirit as seen in this epistle; and what one would say to all, and especially to young believers, is that the best Friend we have on earth is the Spirit of God, answering to what is in heaven; for what is there is here in principle; we can never limit a divine Person. So that in the presence of the Holy Spirit here we have, as I said, our best Friend on earth. It is important that He should be regarded in a personal way, that believers should become acquainted with the Holy Spirit. The Lord in His communications of love to His own at the supper table in Jerusalem, ere He died, spoke much of the Spirit as another comforter; One who, by the term He uses, was to be understood as taking charge of the affairs of the saints here. He spoke of Him as the Spirit of truth, sent by the Father in answer to His begging for Him; He spoke of Him as sent forth in the Son's name by the Father; He spoke of Him as proceeding forth from with the Father (meaning that He had perfect first hand knowledge of the Father's thoughts about the Son; the Son being the subject of testimony, the Spirit should bear witness of Him); and then. He should send Him Himself; and as the Spirit of truth comes. He brings into this world a demonstration of righteousness, and of sin, and of judgment. You see,

therefore, a divine Person is here, and His functions are in relation to the saints. He is another Comforter.

Now I want to shew how He operates, as seen in this epistle, and first in regard to the hearts of believers. He is presented indeed earlier in relation to the Lord Himself as "the Spirit of holiness"; reminding us that what accompanies the gospel is the Spirit of holiness. He is also presented as the Spirit of life; the Spirit of God; the Spirit of adoption. All these designations are in relation to our souls- experience. A profitable address might be given on each of those designations; but I just mention them now, so that you may have in view the comprehensiveness of the Spirit's functions and relations, as presented in this fundamental epistle. I say fundamental, because it is well to be grounded in the foundations; so that young people may have a basis for a superstructure which God will not fail to rear.

But I wish to speak about the Holy Spirit in relation to our hearts. The heart is a sphere in which you would expect Him to be especially interested, for God would secure His people through their hearts; through their intelligence, of course, but the highest intelligence is through the eyes of the heart; die spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God is through the "eyes of your heart", (Ephesians 1:18). Hence the importance of recognising this first service of the Spirit. He knows that the end in view in the gospel is a heart matter; and so, in the type in Exodus that is what God would stress in speaking to His people. He says, "I have borne you on eagles- wings and brought you to myself", (Exodus 19:4). This was after they had murmured. Jitter, they had complained after they had talked about going back into Egypt; God knowing well our proclivities and how the things of the world cling to us even after our conversions, delivers out of them, bearing us on eagles- wings to Himself. That is what marks His early dealings with the people after they had passed through the Red Sea, after

they had sung of His victory. One complaint after another, but no reproofs, no punitive action on the part of God. It was the reign of grace; it was the era of grace.

Thus, in answer to their demand for water in their murmurings. God said to Moses, "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock". That is the idea. Instead of smiting the people, the rock was smitten; and "the rock was the Christ". That touches the heart; it is intended to touch the heart; that He was smitten instead of me when I deserved it; when I had shewn by my wayward, rebellious and murmuring spirit that I deserved it, Christ was smitten. He was "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted", as we read. So that the Holy Spirit comes in type and the water flowed in order that the people might have another state.

And then immediately Amalek attacks them, and the whole divine system, we may say, is engaged to give victory to the believer; for that is the idea. Moses and Aaron and Hur and Joshua, are all actively engaged, so that the believer, as having the Holy Spirit, should prove His power. The intercession of Christ on high in Moses, and the skill of Christ as a Warrior in Joshua, are brought into action, so that the beginnings of the believer, as possessed of the Spirit, should be marked by victory; that the young believer should get a taste of it, and as he gets a taste, the thing will increase. That is to say, what began in the type in (Exodus 17) ended in Joshua, in the people being set in possession of the land. It was the same power, but in increased measure; and it is continually increasing, for there is no limit. It is a divine power here, given without measure.

It is a question, therefore, of capacity in the believer, and so in the type after this God says. Now I want you to be for Me, a chosen, priestly nation. He would have them for Himself, for Jehovah's inheritance is His people; and that elevates the believer at once, for he is of

the inheritance of God. You see how valuable the believer is to God; His heritage is His people, but then He would have His inheritance. Ephesians speaks of "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints". It is a marvellous thought! and directly it gets into the soul it elevates it.

The believer belongs to God; he is the inheritance of God. God says, Now I want your hearts, but I want to open up My heart to you, so that you may know what a God you have:

"In the desert God will teach thee
What the God that thou hast found,
Patient, gracious, powerful, holy,
All His grace shall there abound". (Hymn 76)

That is in the wilderness. We have to know that God, and so He sets about at Horeb to make Himself known to them. I do not say at Sinai, for that is a question of demand, but Horeb, the mount of God where the covenant was made; there they spent a long time, and God opened up His heart to them. That is the principle of it. I know it was but partial, for the death of Christ had to take place for the lull disclosure of the heart of God. "He spared not his Son", we are told. He commends His love to us, as we are told in our chapter. He is so desirous that we might know it, and that it might be in our hearts. Think how God condescends to commend a thing that should never need to be commended the very best thing conceivable, the love of God! I am not speaking of persons, but of the love of God. What a thing it is! and God condescends to commend it to us; reminding us of how slow we are to value what is most excellent.

Philippians speaks of excellency, "That ye may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent". It is a fine habit. God commends His love to us, "in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us".

But that is not enough. He intends that what He has commended should become resident in our hearts, and the Holy Spirit serves in that connection. He sheds abroad, says the apostle, the love of God in our hearts. Now this is most important for every young person, and for all of us, to have the consciousness of the love of God actually shed abroad in our hearts by the Spirit; a transaction by the Spirit of God; not simply coming to us, taking possession of us, sealing us, but bringing in this thing into our hearts, the love of God.

Now I pass on to chapter 8, a chapter, thank God, much read among us, and I hope understood; so that I do So intend to go into the details of the teaching relative to the Spirit, only that I would say that it answers in the types to (Numbers 21) and what follows. It is an experience well nigh forty years after that of which I have spoken. But it is not contemplated that this should be the case with us. It is well, however, to note the number of years that elapsed between Horeb and Beer, the well of which it is said, "Gather the people together, and I will give them water". It is well to note that; so that we might not be 'objective', merely, in our apprehension of the truth; but that we may see that while the objective side is presented to us in the gospel, to be received on the principle of faith, the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures would teach us that a time -- however short or long -- elapses between that and the full formation in us that corresponds with it. That as God worked on the principle of time in (Genesis 1), so He works on the principle of time in our souls; for we are still in time. Hence we find in Genesis that life does not appear till the third day. We have light on the first day; and then we have the heavens on the second day, all of which is what I may call objective; that is, what is presented to me, something outside of me, but which is intended to affect me and govern me.

Then on the third day you have the dry land appearing.

Now the dry land alludes to what is subjective; because it is said immediately, that it is to bring forth of itself: "Let the earth cause grass to spring up", etc. Of course, it needs the heat of the sun and the atmosphere; it needs water, although there is nothing said about rain until the flood; but it needs moisture. Thus on the third day that is, two days elapse, and then you have what we speak of as subjective, pointing to a result worked in us, a latent thing brought into existence by the work of God. No one should be content until he begins to realise the power of fruitfulness, of life operating. It begins at the new birth.

In this chapter, (Romans 8), we read of those who are "after the Spirit" or "according to Spirit", as it should read. That includes the initial work of the Spirit the new birth. This chapter contemplates the possession of the Spirit by the believer. Before the Spirit worked in us we were "according to flesh", and we thought only of the things of the flesh, but the work of God in the soul leads to thinking of the things of the Spirit; we are "according to Spirit", we are that. That is not objective, it is the state of the person. Now these are most important and practical things, and I am speaking of them in connection with the lapse of time, with that principle as to God's work in our souls. Two days would be a testimony as to the time needed, according to Genesis 1. Two days spiritually imply much; three implies ample testimony. Seven would be a complete exercise; so that we need not, dear young people, think of waiting for forty years for the subjective result. It should be practically immediate, but on the principle of lapse of time; and this is calculated to keep us humble and dependent, for we must wait on God.

I wish now to shew how the Holy Spirit in chapter 8 brings into evidence the sons of God. To be sons of God practically we need deliverance; and this book is to effect that. The experience of chapter 7, which perhaps

is not much known by us, nor so much dwelt upon as it used to be, is essential. Every young believer should take that chapter up and work it out. It is, as it were, a problem. I know of no greater problem in the Scriptures than that chapter; but the greater the problem, the more the advantage when it is successfully worked out; and when this one is worked out the enemy has no more, advantage over you through the sin that dwelleth in you. You acknowledge humbly that it is there; but you have it kept under lock and key so to say. You have power to do it, for the Holy Spirit becomes like an armed official acting all powerfully against a criminal whose sentence is pronounced. He restrains it. If it acts, you know it acts, and judge it; you regard its action by itself, and you are not brought again into bondage through it. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" is the cry, and the answer is immediate: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord". He has done it, but He does it by the Spirit. By His death, of course; for there could be no Holy Spirit for us, nor any deliverance save by the death of Christ; so that He is the Deliverer, and the Deliverer becomes the Husband, as we learn in chapter 7: 1 - 4.

But then chapter 8 is to shew how the thing is effected in detail. It is by the Spirit. The condemnation of sin in the flesh in the death of Christ having taken place, a mighty Power comes into the believer and takes up His residence there (for the idea is dwelling): "If so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you", and He takes up His residence unchallenged. It is a poor thing if the Holy Spirit has to contest for His presence in the believer every moment of the believer's history. That will not do. The idea is that He is to reside, to have undisputed possession of the house, and if He does. He will give you a blessed time. Many of us know what wonderful times the Spirit of God accords us. The more latitude we give Him the better the time, the more enjoyment, the

greater victory; "the Spirit is life", and "the mind of the Spirit life and peace". "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh". It is condemned. How the love of God enters into that, sending "his own Son"! It appears twice in the chapter. And what for? "That the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit".

Now that alludes in the types, as I said, to (Numbers 21), where you have the brazen serpent lifted up, as you will remember, and following on that the springing well; The two things stand out, the one condemnatory of sin in the flesh, and the other an active power of life, a well springing up: "Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it". So there is movement towards Canaan in that chapter. It is a chapter to be noted specially for the suggestions of energy; and it is military; "the book of the wars of the Lord" is mentioned. How you would like to get into that book! Well, this is how we get into it, by recognising the Spirit, and as the Spirit takes full possession there is victory after victory, and no more murmuring. It is "the book of the wars of the Lord", and then 'brooks' are mentioned there, and 'poets'. It is a chapter full of stirring things, all of which have their answer in the condemnation of the flesh. God having dealt with it judicially in the death of the Lord Jesus; and in the recognition of the Spirit of God. It is victory! It is a chapter of buoyancy; and so the people go right on towards the land. It says there, that they go as far as "the top of Pisgah". You say. That is a look into the land. No doubt, but what is stated there is "Pisgah, which looks over the surface of the waste", (Numbers 21:20). It is a backward look, so that you may know better 'the God that thou hast found', not that you want to go back over it. No. The backward movement is over forever, but the backward look is that you may think of the God whose

love and whose support you have proved, so you may love Him all the more. And that is what comes out in this chapter: "those who love God". The wilderness brings out what God is to us in His love, and so we love Him, and there is nothing too good in His mind, for those who love Him. "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him", (1 Corinthians 2:9). And so it is here. He has foreknown us, He has predestinated us. He has called us. He has justified us. He has glorified us those who love Him.

Now I wish to dwell on the thought of the sons of God. I have already anticipated it, but I will turn back to speak of deliverance, because we cannot enter into the idea or realise the thought of sons apart from deliverance. You may get the idea objectively, as I said, but to know it in the soul is another matter, and so "Because ye are sons", we learn elsewhere, "God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". (Galatians 4:6). Now I touch sonship, "As many as are led, by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", verse 14. So in the type in Numbers, as I said, the movement is in the direction of Canaan. The backward look is just to enhance God in our minds and hearts, to review what He has been to us, but we are already moving, not by the light and guidance of the tabernacle now (that practically disappears for the remainder of the wilderness journey), it is a question henceforth of the power within. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God", that is the power within, "beware sons of God", verse 14. And so in the type, as they drew near to the Jordan, they were all sons; they were led typically by the Spirit of God; such are the sons of God. Moses took great pains to instruct them in the book of Deuteronomy that they might be characteristically that. "Ye are sons of Jehovah", he says, and he tells them many things they are to do, so that they

might go into the land in the dignity and liberty and intelligence and glory and refinement of sons; that they should be in it according to God.

That is (Romans 8) in a general way. Other things might be said about the Spirit. We have the first fruits of the Spirit; and moreover He witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God, a touching and precious thing. He tells us inwardly that we are children of God, verse 16. We have thus the comfort of being the objects of divine care here. The Holy Spirit reminds us of that. Be our circumstances severe, under pressure we may be, and what not, but the Holy Spirit would remind us touchingly in our spirits that we are children as well as sons; that we are children of God, and hence objects of the Father's care in regard of every matter relative to us, in the wilderness. So that we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me", (Hebrews 13:6). We may nestle in that knowledge under the Father's wing, for love will do its best for us. "Behold what manner of love" (it is the manner of it) "the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the children of God", (1 John 3:1).

Then He intercedes for us, we are told, "The Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered". Wonderful fact! there is perfect representation in that intercession of the needs of our souls, with groanings that cannot be uttered. God understands them all. So you see, dear young believer, what you have in the Spirit. You may not know how to pray as you ought to pray (the Lord teaches us how to pray, and we should learn from Him); but if we do not know, the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Then God Himself searches our hearts; you see what interest heaven has in our hearts. "He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according

to the will of God". And then "we do know" (by the knowledge we have of God) "that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to purpose". All that is (Romans 8), and you can see how God brings you on gently, the Holy Spirit moving you inwardly, moving your affections and intelligence, so that you are moving towards Canaan. Egypt is behind forever. You go into Canaan by attraction, but in the power of the Spirit, not led by the hand any more. You are no longer a child to be led by the hand out of the land of Egypt we go into the land in the dignity of sons. You follow the ark through; you see it before you two thousand cubits ahead, in all its beauty and power Christ going into death. How admirable! how it touches the hearts of the saints as they see the Leader of their salvation going forward and dealing with death, so that it disappears from view. It is cut off in the height of its power, as the feet of the priests who carry the ark touch its waters. Hence, they went over by attraction, as I might say, in the dignity of sons, but as loving Christ. The apostle says, "If any one love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha", as if he abhorred the thought, and pronounced a curse on any one that does not love Christ. So that we go over in the power of the Spirit of God as the sons of God following Christ, for He goes first. He is the Leader of our salvation. We go over Jordan as loving Christ; we are raised with Him by the faith of the working of God, and we are quickened with Him.

Now I want to say just a word about the kingdom. It is a drop, in a way, from what I have been speaking of, but the kingdom is a term that covers the whole position while we are down here. Although Romans shews that there is power in the Spirit to enter into Canaan, this being our place, yet the wilderness remains during our life in flesh and blood, but it is where the will and testimony of God are maintained, and the kingdom has its

service in this connection. It is the guarantee for our protection and deliverance in view of the evil and the opposition that there is. It is not a question of dislodging the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Perizzite, the Amorite; that is not the idea of the kingdom. That is a military matter; not but that the kingdom implies military power, for there was military order in the wilderness as in the land; but the order in the wilderness is much more pronounced, because it is to call attention to the permanency of the kingdom as here, as covering our position in this world.

So in chapter 14, after the apostle speaks about the authorities, "the powers that be" for whom we pray and whom God uses, he speaks about the kingdom of God; that is direct from Him. The kingdom of God is that in which God rules directly. The kingdoms of this world God uses, but He governs through them indirectly. Hence, the kingdom of God is brought in in chapter 14 over against meat and drink. By going in for the things that are common to men, that the flesh goes after, by going in for them without control, without spiritual intelligence, we may destroy the work of God. That is a serious matter; the work of God is most precious, and therefore 'the weak brother' must be handled carefully. But I cannot go into that; I only wish to shew you that the kingdom of God is over against these natural things, and that it is "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit".

Now that does not necessarily mean when we are together. The kingdom of God, as I said, is a permanent thing. In the types it is seen in Numbers in the ordering of the tribes militarily. Each man pitched by the standard of his father's house, and they were all arrayed in relation to the tabernacle, and God dwelt in the tabernacle. That is to say. God dwelling there influenced the whole area of the tribes. The influence spread around from the dwelling of God to the whole

camp; so that it was a kingdom, and Moses in a way was king in it. It is said of him that "he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together". Moses had acquired that place. He was not always fully owned, for rebellion after rebellion shewed itself, but I am speaking of the principle of Numbers, and it is the kingdom of God. It principle of Numbers, and it is the kingdom of God. It is a permanent institution in the wilderness, it is the rule of God as dwelling among His people; so that it applies to me in my house, in my business, as I walk in the streets. Whatever I do I am in the kingdom of God and under its protection.

But what is in view here is the enjoyment that there is in it; that it is an area in which there is righteousness, in which there is peace, and in which there is joy in the Holy Spirit; that ensures giving conditions even when we are not together. When we are together, we come on to a different plane; but living conditions are assured to us in the wilderness through the kingdom of God. Righteousness is the first thing, practical righteousness, of course. The righteousness of God is demonstrated in the epistle, and the answer here in us is practical righteousness; so that every man in Israel, from twenty years and above, had his own place in relation to the centre. That is the idea of righteousness; that you do not veer away from your appointed place, you are governed by the will of God. Moses the mediator being there conveys the will of God, and that is what comes out in Numbers. Every one occupies his place, he is in righteousness, and he stands in relation to his brethren and considers for them. He sees that the occupation of his assigned position is essential to the welfare of the whole. Everything is divinely ordered by God in the camp. It is the kingdom of God; and I occupy my assigned place. I am in righteousness. Then I am in peace. I do not quarrel with my neighbour if I occupy my assigned position; and then the Holy Spirit is at

liberty to fill my heart with joy. I have got it always; in every relation of life it is granted to me by the kingdom of God "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit". You can see, as I have said, 'the weak brother' would be cared for in that. The powers that be will not care for him; weak people do not get much favour in the world; they are not much thought of; but in the kingdom of God every provision is made for the weak brother; he is not to be stumbled.

The last thing I had in mind is the rejoicing. Chapter 15 is full of energy, but I just refer to verse 13. "Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Spirit". I thought, dear brethren, that we could hardly finish our meetings with a better verse than this, because the Lord gives us good times in these 'holy convocations', but when we disperse we are apt to drop down, and not maintain the high spiritual level on which we have been, and it seemed to me this verse is very practical for us.

One might say much about the chapter. It is full of energy, as I said. It is the chapter in which the apostle speaks of the immense radius of his labours. "From Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum", he says, "I have fully preached the gospel of Christ". He was not a bit jaded. He says, I am going to come to you too. He was going to invade the Latin Empire, as he had covered the Greek Empire. He had that in mind, and he said he thought of going to Spain also. No conqueror ever operated with such energy as this. What a mighty work was his! "From Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum" he had fully preached the gospel of Christ. One would have loved to have heard him. How well he did it! "If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost", and then he speaks of the "radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God". That was what shone out in

his preaching. He fully preached in the East, and was ready to come on to the West.

The levitical energy that marks him in this chapter is most stimulating, and so you see the power in this word of his: "Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that ye should abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit". Well, let this mark us, dear brethren. It is a question of dependence on God, the God of hope; for as He has helped us during these three days. He can do more for us. He is not changed, He is the God of hope; He inspires hope, so that the thing is to go forth in hope; and then to be filled with "all joy and peace in believing" in the power of the Holy Spirit. May God grant it.

READINGS IN COLOSSIANS (1)

Colossians 1

J.T. In view of current exercises and services amongst us, which I believe indicate some progress, I thought this epistle would serve as calling attention to a certain danger and tendency ever with us to stop short of the will of God. What is said of Epaphras may be taken to represent desires that I believe fit at the present time, that the saints "may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God", chapter 4:12. That was his burden for the Colossians, combating, as the apostle says, for them in prayers. I was connecting it in my mind with the early chapters of Joshua, and particularly with the use of the word 'lodge'; this indicating that the territory near the Jordan, as first reached, was not to be a permanent encampment, but just a lodging place. Lodging in a place in a primary sense indicates that a short stay is necessary and that you are going on further.

H.E.S. Are you suggesting that the truth of Colossians is a lodging-place for something beyond?

J.T. That is it. You will remember that David was obliged to reign for seven years and six months at Hebron which is a similar position. I mean, Hebron stands in relation to Jerusalem, as the territory of the Jordan stood in relation to the whole land. David was obliged to reign there for seven years and six months; not on account of his own exercises and state of soul, but on account of the divided state of the nation. As the nation united on him and anointed him at Hebron, then he proceeded to Jerusalem. Jerusalem in that section of Scripture represents the fulness of the will of God and the position corresponding with it; the land stood in contrast to a small part of it at the Jordan. This epistle is aiming at a forward movement. A very important point had been reached, but the great danger of coming short of the whole purpose of God existed.

J.R.S. Do you regard this epistle as having direct reference to a spiritual constitution, as a means by which power is gained for entering into the land?

J.T. It deals with a certain point reached a very important point; that is, in the types, the entering into the land; and the danger of contentment with having touched that, without going up and taking possession. The state at Colosse was evidently somewhat stunted for the exercise of Epaphras his prayers and his combat shewed that he felt there was a stopping short. Undoubtedly his exercises and communications to the apostle led to the letter being written; so that he does not proceed immediately after the salutation to open up the counsels of God as in Ephesians. He is free to do that in his letter to the Ephesians; but he does not in this case. He speaks about his prayer, that they should understand the will of God; and then he proceeds to bring in the Person of Christ, to act on the affections of the saints; that the idea of attraction should be accentuated; for this is one great feature in crossing the Jordan. The point is whether it can be accentuated by a special presentation of Christ, for it is very full here.

J.J. Is that the reason why more prominence is given to the Person of Christ in Colossians than in Ephesians?

J.T. I think so. Evidently they were not wanting in affection for Christ; there was no urgent need of the truth of His Person being presented in Ephesians.

P.L. Would it be like the ark appearing before them in (Joshua 3)?

J.T. Yes; Colossians is the antitype of the opening chapters of Joshua.

J.J. What would you say of Caleb and Joshua? Were they in a Colossian position in their souls, or were they further on?

J.T. They were further on, answering to the state of things at Ephesus. What comes out in Rahab helps, for she is the link of faith between Egypt and the inheritance.

There is nothing said about faith in the wilderness in Hebrews 11, but it is a remarkable fact that faith actually existed in the land before the children of Israel entered it. Rahab had an apprehension of the power of God in the passage of the Red Sea, and she had an apprehension of the power of the Spirit. She represents the work of God apart from what the wilderness represents; that is to say, the work of God is the work of God, and is true to itself; we can rely upon it, We may be disappointed in certain wilderness results that we may see, for the influence of such ministers as Moses and Aaron was bound to affect the people beyond their state. I think that is what we should notice: that ministry is likely to affect us beyond our state. So that Rahab does not represent the result of ministry, but the work of God; and that is really all we can rely upon. We may be sadly misled by the result of external influences, for if the influence or the occasion of the influence be removed, the true underlying state will become manifest, as was seen in the Judges. As each judge died, the people did worse than their fathers; shewing that the influence of the judge had held them. So it is a question of the work of God; nothing less is of any permanent value.

Eu.R. Would it be right to say that unless we connect the action with the Lord (corresponding with the type of Moses and Aaron) the work of God is not liberated and available for the will of God?

J.T. Well, that is a feature too; but the work of God is the work of God, you know. I mean. God presents His work apart from the instrumentalities through which it may be effected externally. Take for instance the man in (John 9). As far as we can see he had no ministry as we speak of it. The Lord had opened his eyes by a procedure that is very touching, but that was all; that was the work of God, and what came out in him shewed that there was a moral, effect, although he had no further external help until he was cast out. The Lord

said, "that the works of God should be manifested in him". It was the work of God, but there was no other help; his parents did not help him, but the work of God shewed itself in a full result. The Lord comes back after giving plenty of opportunity for the work of God to shew its strength in him, and says, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?" and he says, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him?" The Lord answers, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he", and he worships Him. The full result is thus seen.

Eu.R. In his case there was obedience, for he went and washed.

J.T. Quite, that is the effect of the work of God. That is the position at the Jordan; they had had a most powerful ministry, they had been under Moses and Aaron, and were led so far, but now the question is, Will they go the whole way? I believe a good deal of disillusionment takes place; for after all we have got to come down to bedrock, and it is a question of the work of God. All else will go, or fail us.

F.H.B. Do you mean that our intelligence may often be beyond the work of God in us?

J.T. I think it is usually, so.

H.E.S. Is that why emphasis is laid so much on the work of God? The Lord will only trust that according to (John 2). "But Jesus himself did not trust himself to them, because he knew all men, and that he had not need that any should testify of man, for himself knew what was in man", verses 24, 25.

J.T. Exactly; there had been a mighty ministry marked by miracles and many believed on account of that, but the Lord did not trust them.

Ques. Would the work of God be illustrated in the challenge that comes to Ezekiel, "Shall these bones live?"

J.T. Yes; it was a question of the power of God.

W.W. Would this chapter call attention to the vast working of the kingdom into which we are introduced

the "kingdom of the Son of his love", so that there should be encouragement to move forward in the power of the work of God?

J.T. That is it; the work of God will shew itself as Christ is presented, as in the case of the blind man, who was equal to the great fact that the Son of God was there before him. He was ready for it; not because he had been under good ministry, as we speak, but because of the work of God which shewed itself in such a marvellous way in him. It never failed him in any crisis in the history given; he was always equal; and indeed he advanced in power in dealing with his opposers. Then the Lord takes him up; "Jesus heard that they had cast him out", for complete rejection is the result from the side of opposition. "They cast him out", it says, and when the Lord heard it. He finds him, and says to him, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?" He is equal to that; he is quite ready for it. It is not a question of ministry from others, but of the work of God: "That the works of God should be manifested in him".

H.H. Would that allow for the epistle to the Romans coming before this? Would the teaching and light and the work of the Spirit in the deliverance set forth in chapter 8 all come in under the heading of what you are saying?

J.T. Yes, so far as the actual work of God in the believer is concerned; of course ministry is seen in Romans.

F.H.B. Do you understand that the work of God prepares us for the reception of light?

J.T. It does. It is remarkable how the man in (John 9) came into the knowledge of divine things, and how able he became in answering his opposers.

J.J. Does he not illustrate in a sense the three positions you have often referred to Ziklag, Hebron and Jerusalem?

J.T. Quite. We do well to take notice of Rahab's

position because it puts us in our proper place externally, that is to say, we have might to anything on the line of nature. She had no right to anything; and moreover, she Had a bad reputation. I mean, it disposes of the flesh at once, if you take her up as a type of yourself as you are bound to do, if you want to go into Canaan, you are bound to admit that is the point. She is the next person mentioned by the Spirit of God as having faith; but what was her character and history? That puts us in our proper place as entering the land; you have no status of your own at all; it must be a question of God, "His great love wherewith he loved us".

F.S.M. Would that be the line in John's gospel pretty well throughout?

J.T. Quite. Man in the flesh has no status at all; he must be born a new.

Ques. Is your thought that the principle of new birth, with which we start, continues in the Christian course?

J.T. That is what I understand. It affects the whole person, and the effect remains.

J.C.S. And the work of God does not allow for any carrying over from the old order.

J.T. Just so; and what happened at the Jordan is to shew how the thing that we may carry over has been dealt with by God; "the body of the flesh" is put off in the circumcision of Christ. It is left behind; it has no claim on us. Even in regard of the system of ordinances, "He has taken it also out of the way", chapter 2:14. But Rahab, without any ministry or help from others, as far as the record goes, had faith, that is, she was a subject of the work of God. She had flax in her house, and had spread it out on the roof, meaning typically that she was beginning to judge her state; and she used that to cover the spies. It says, moreover, that she sent them forth "another way"; she had the idea of another way. Then another thing is, she continued in Israel, as the Spirit of

God tells us (Matthew 1), and we know that she did from the fact recorded that she is in the royal line.

G.W.W. Would the flax being there point on to the fine linen? Flax is the beginning of this.

J.T. Quite; she is on the way to it. Without the raw material we cannot have the fabric. The Lamb's wife is to "be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure".

G.W.W. What relation has ministry to the work of God?

J.T. I suppose we shall see here what it was in the apostle; the ministry of the gospel and the ministry of the church. I think it introduces divine authority; that is, one of the first elements in ministry is that it raises the question of the authority of God to take us up and form us; to put His impress upon us. That is to say, the work of God is like the earth coming out of the waters in (Genesis 1); there was latent power in it: "Let the earth bring forth". But then you want to control what is brought forth; and I think that is the idea, that ministry represents the authority of God; in fact, it involves here the image of God. At any rate, the first thing mentioned here of the Lord after redemption is that He is "image of the invisible God", verse 15. All the effects of life in the universe must come under His impress; otherwise it does not correspond with God. Things must correspond with God. The earth in a moral sense has got away from God, and there is no correspondence at all; but the divine thought is that the fruit or result of life should bear the divine impress; and I believe ministry effects that; the sense that God has to say to me; that He has a will and thoughts about me; thus I am gradually led on to and correspond with the idea of what God is in Christ: "Who is the image of the invisible God". I think ministry should have that in mind, that you are representing God. You are not producing the life; nobody can produce life but God.

G.W.W. So the will should come under the

influence of God, that is, the knowledge of God would go with the formation of image.

J.T. That is what I thought; no one can produce life but God. The Lord says that the Father quickens and the Son quickens. That is God's prerogative; but ministry is to bring in the impress of God on the fruit of life. God develops what He pleases; He "giveth it a body as it hath pleased him". That shews the importance of being under God and representative of Him in ministry; because the persons who listen to me are sure to be affected by me not only by what I say, but by what I am, and I do not want to put a false impression on them.

Ques. "The Lord working with them"; would that be the way?

J.T. He works with us; but then you see, according to Mark, which is the gospel for ministers. He selected certain ones that they might be with Him, that is, that they should take on His impress.

H.E.S. Is it in keeping with the ministry that the apostle said in Ephesians, "Be ye therefore imitators of God"? Is that the thought?

J.T. Quite; they would get the thought of God from those who ministered the truth to them primarily the apostle himself.

Q.M.S. Do we see Paul with a due sense of the end of the work of God in (Acts 20) when he said, "I commit you to God, and to the word of his grace", after having declared the whole counsel of God to them?

J.T. Quite; there is the further thought there, of course, of their need of God.

A.J.H.B. In the beginning of Genesis it is said that Adam was placed in the garden to till it, and I wondered whether that was rather the thought of ministry. Before sin came in you find him occupied to bring about the divine impress in connection with what God had effected, which was life.

J.T. That is good. "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". In keeping the garden he is occupied with life, and he would be concerned that it should be in accord with God. Moreover, he could name the animals; for I suppose before sin came in, each animal represented some thought of God. The idea of life suggests that God is the living God; He is the Author of life and every feature of life must represent Him in some way. Adam was able to name those living creatures that came before him, and God did not alter any name he gave; shewing that God recognised the intelligence He had placed in Adam in regard of the result of life.

Ques. Is your thought that one may receive ministry and yet there may be a lack of the work of God in the soul?

J.T. Of course, and almost from the very outset. The epistle to the Hebrews with other scriptures shews that certain were even made partakers of the Holy Spirit, but there was no work of God in them. Powerful ministry may carry you along, even if unconverted; and may carry converted people far beyond their state.

H.F.N. In Romans it says, "Destroy not the work of God". If the work of God is indestructible, I would like a little help as to why that should be said.

J.T. I believe what is alluded to there is the bearing of the person's action. I do not see that the work of God, as we are speaking of it, is destructible; what God does in this sense is done forever.

A.S.L. But as far as the person referred to was concerned, in what he was doing he was working in that direction.

J.T. Quite. I think you can see how important it is to view the work of God by itself. God is certainly entitled to do that. Then you see that ministry as from God conveys what He is authoritatively; and it implies His designs; the idea of architecture, design, and general

beautification as to things in the divine realm. Therefore, in ministry it is a question of the formation of things, the work of God taking proper form, taking on the divine impressions. Apparently the saints at Colosse needed full knowledge. The bearing of the epistle would shew that what they needed was to the end that they might be "filled with the full knowledge of his will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, so as to walk worthily of the Lord unto all well pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and growing by the true knowledge of God". That is what they needed; and that would bring in the idea of Godlikeness. The new man was to be "according to the image of him that has created him", chapter 3:10.

E.S.H. What part has prayer in regard of the work of God?

J.T. Well, you see how the apostle here is praying for the Colossians, that they might "be filled with the full knowledge of his will". The work of God goes on all the time with us, unless our wills begin to act. Then, of course, it stops, but normally it goes on in relation to what is presented to us objectively; in relation to whatever pattern God is working on. If He is working in relation to the heavenly, the work proceeds on those lines, and it is for the ministers to understand that; that as Paul insists they are working with God.

A. S .L. What would you say is the evidence of a work of God in any soul? People may have a good deal of intelligence and be able to speak of things and explain them, but what is the evidence of the work of God in a person?

J.T. The initial evidence is submission to the will of God, and a readiness to take in divine thoughts. Mary of Bethany was subject, and sat at the Lord's feet; she was ready to take in His thoughts.

A.S.L. Rahab, whom you started with, would be a very good illustration. You mentioned her as illustrative

of the work of God. I mean, she had faith in God, and was sure that the people would be triumphant.

J.T. Exactly. Of course a great deal could be said as to the accompanying things, in the initial effect of the work of God; but the apostle is concerned about workmanship, to "present every man perfect in Christ". Mary of Bethany sat at the Lord's feet, and I believe that is a principle. Unless He is definitely before the believers, gifts in the exercise of the service are sure to be unduly distinctive in their minds; and that is where the Colossian danger lay. The Corinthians were grossly occupied with the persons that ministered, or professed to minister; they had their own preferences; they were comparing this one with that one, and so forth. The Colossians were not so gross as that, but there was this danger; the apostle is anxious that no man should deceive or mislead them. It is a danger, that lurks always where we are disposed to take certain ones as references in the ministry.

Now Mary of Bethany would never view persons in that way; she would value all, and I believe the meaning of her sitting at the Lord's feet is, that whoever the gift it is a question of what the Lord is saying. That is a sure evidence of the work of God that you want to hear what the Lord is saying through whomsoever it may come. It is a question of what the Lord is saying, and we know from the way the Holy Spirit came in at Pentecost, that there would be diversity: "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all", 1 Corinthians 12:4 - 6. The idea is to bring divine Persons into their proper place in our vision. That is, Christianity is a question of Persons; we are baptised to the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Any, intermediaries are simply for our good, and not to become objects, except that we regard

them in love, and respect them for their work's sake. It is a question, therefore, of what God will do; and that, I am sure, is the best way. It is the work of God, that one is concerned as to what God is saying or doing.

P.G. And the work of God would develop the instincts by which one would distinguish the voice of the Lord in the ministry.

J.T. Quite, the apostle says to the Corinthians that they were the evidence themselves of Christ speaking in him; that is the point he makes.

W.W. It says that Rahab sent back the spies "another way"; would that indicate that she received them in faith's way and sent them back in love's way?

J.T. Quite; it was not the ordinary way. If a Greek philosopher were to come in among the saints at Colosse he would direct them the ordinary way; that is not another way; the other way is the divine way. Going up to the mountain and hiding there agrees with Colossians.

Ques. Is it possible to receive ministry apart from the work of God?

J.T. Yes; the unregenerate human mind is capable of going a long way in the things of God. (Compare Hebrews 6).

G.W.W. Would you say the real object of ministry is to bring the soul, the subject of the work of God, under the influence of headship, and so there is a presentation of Christ that would bring about that result?

J.T. That is what I understand; you are led on to headship. Paul said of the Thessalonians, "Ye became our imitators", and immediately adds, "and of the Lord", because he would not appropriate his followers. There was a presentation of God in him amongst them, and they followed on, but he did not hold them, they "were added to the Lord", and that made way for headship. The end of this epistle is to get us on to the full thought of headship, that as holding the Head, we

might "stand perfect and complete in all the will of God".

Ques. Would the effect of the epistle be seen in the last chapter, to "present every man perfect in Christ"?

J.T. That leads to the full thought; it is "every man"; the full end is collective, as in Ephesians. In Colossians it is presented as the burden of the prayer of Epaphras standing "perfect and complete in all the will of God". The prayer of the apostle, chapter 1:9 - 11, is in full keeping with this. I think the two pillars in the front of the temple would perhaps help. In those two pillars there was a presentation of what God would effect. They were beautifully ornamented. In 1 Kings you have the separate heights of the pillars; but in 2 Chronicles their total height, and I suppose the latter would mean the fulness of the divine thought. You may reach the height of one, so to speak, but to get to the height of the two, you reach completeness. Obviously the idea is to represent what God can effect; so in Peter and John at the gate of the temple you have what God can effect in men like ourselves, so that attention is called to them there: "Look on us". There was something there representative of God; it was not Christ personally; but it was enough to call the man's attention to, and he was healed, brought into power in that action, and "held Peter and John". That was an immense start, but he would go on; he continued with them. God shews what He can do; not only what is effected in Christ personally, but what He can effect in men like ourselves. That is the idea of ministry. Being myself the thing I present, I affect accordingly those who listen to me; and it leads them on to the full thought; for the great objective is the "full grown man". Alongside of those pillars there was spiritually the means of bringing others into what they set forth, in the altar, the sea, and the laver.

H.W.S. "Growing by the true knowledge of God"; would that be the way the thing is effected in the soul?

J.T. Yes, that goes with it, only there is the fulness of

divine thoughts set out in Christ, specially in view of Ephesians.

G.W.W. Can there be any progressive work in the soul apart from development in headship?

J.T. Well, God works in us in relation to the headship of Christ. You would be concerned to so present Him to your hearers that their minds are led in the direction of Christ as Head.

G.W.W. That is what I am trying to get at.

J.T. You are on that line, and that is the end in this epistle; that we are led on to an apprehension of Christ in relation to the land, the whole purpose of God.

Eu.R. It speaks in the early part of the chapter of the glad tidings "bearing fruit and growing"; would that involve the work of God?

J.T. It would. Now after that he goes on to the Father: "Giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for sharing the portion of the saints in light, who has delivered us from the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love". It is a question of authority, but authority of a peculiar form; not exactly the kingdom, as in Romans, but the "kingdom of the Son of his love"; he has carried us along to that; you are brought on. It is still authority. As far as I see, the kingdom will never end at all; it goes on. It will become more and more attenuated, so to speak, but it will go on. Even in eternity the Lord is said to be subject; He delivers up the kingdom to Him who is God and Father, "that God may be all in all", (1 Corinthians 15:28). It says, "The Son also himself shall be placed in subjection" a marvellous statement! Obviously the idea of the kingdom goes on, for God is to be God, and man is to be man. It is not necessarily asserted, but ever there. So here we are being led on from the kingdom, as seen typically at the Red Sea, the authority of Moses as in the wilderness. At the end of Deuteronomy Moses as king corresponds somewhat with what we have here; he was

"king in Jeshurun", that is, a king in the midst of an 'upright people'; the point, however, was not so much what he was to God. But here it is what Jesus is to God the 'Son of the Father's love'. It is a most precious experience to be under that rule!

H.H. Would you say the kingdom according to this thought goes over Jordan?

F.H.B. Is that the carrying on of the thought that God is the Head of Christ?

J.T. Quite; that is another side of it. It is a remarkable statement that "the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection"; mark, it is the Son.

Eu.R. Does this fit in with what you were saying as to David being crowned king at Hebron?

J.T. I think it would be more like Solomon's reign the Son of the Father's love. It introduces us really to the book of Proverbs. Then I was thinking of the peculiar setting in which the Person of Christ is before us, and how He is Head in the creation and in redemption, and then, how a dual sort of ministry runs right through the ministry of the reconciliation of all things and persons: the ministry of the gospel, and the ministry of the church. As the Lord helps us we may see how the mediatorial position of Christ is retroactive. It is seen in Him as Man here, and we begin with this. It is the Son of the Father's love in redemption, and the mediatorial idea must centre in the Person of Christ as Man. That is what was in the mind of God. He puts Himself in touch with the creation and with men in redemption through Christ, not only that it goes forward, but it is retroactive in its bearing. The thought reacts and goes back to the very beginning of things; that all must be through mediatorial service.

H.H. Your suggestion of what is retroactive accounts for a great deal of Scripture not hitherto understood. Does it not carry you back to such a scripture as

(Proverbs 8) and all that which anticipated the coming in of Christ as the Son?

J.T. It does; it explains much. What is stated even there began with wisdom acting here in relation to men; you are carried back from that point.

F.S.M. Would the ministry of wisdom in Proverbs lead to the inquiry of "What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?" Is that the objective?

J.T. Yes, it is God in relation to the creation. The results in the book of Proverbs are most interesting, and that inquiry is by a man who speaks of his abject ignorance; he takes a low place in that chapter, chapter 30. That is a fine inquiry: "What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?" The woman of worth in the last chapter is the subjective result.

G.W.W. Perhaps you would explain what you mean by 'retroactive'; it may not be very plain to all of us.

J.T. Well, take Peter's remark as to the Lord: "Being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison, heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah", (1 Peter 3:18 - 20). That is retroactive; He was not there personally; it was His Spirit, but it was the Spirit of the One that was becoming Man; it was the Spirit of Christ in man, that preached in Noah.

G.W.W. You mean that we find the workings of the Spirit of Christ before Christ was personally present as Man?

J.T. Quite; it is the Spirit of Christ not the Spirit of God; "the Spirit of Christ which was in them".

G.W.W. "Searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which was in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these". (1 Peter 1:11).

J.T. Peter helps in that particularly, shewing that the operations before, whatever the instrumentality, had

in view the incarnation. That was the one thing divine thoughts centred in, and whether things were done mediatorially before or after, Christ is the Mediator.

J.R.S. And you are regarding that as being in this chapter?

J.T. That is how the truth is presented.

P.L. "By whom also he made the worlds". (Hebrews 1:2).

J.T. That implies His deity, but it is woven into the principle of His mediatorial position. Then it says here in verse 15, "Who is image of the invisible God". That is stated of Christ here as the One in whom we have redemption; and then. He is "Firstborn of all creation; because by him were created all things", and so forth. That is to say, the very existence of all those created things gives Him the first place, because it is not simply that He was the instrument, but it was by His power; the first preposition 'by', verse 16, means that it was by His power the things were done; but all on the mediatorial principle, as remarked. The second 'by' in verse 16 is instrumental. (See note. New Translation).

J.J. So I suppose the appearings of the Lord in various forms in the Old Testament are prospective in view of His incarnation.

J.T. Yes. Referring again to verse 16 if you employ a man to do a thing, he is the instrument by which it is done; but in the creation there was more than that in regard of Christ. He does the thing in His own power, and that fact gives Him the first place firstborn; He must have that place; but it is wrought into the principle of His mediatorial position. Thus the truth of His Person is worked into our souls as we apprehend this mediatorial service.

A.S.L. And He has done it too for Himself: "All things have been created by him and for him".

J.T. That is the end in view.

G.W.W. It is remarkable that J.N.D. in the verse in

Ephesians leaves out "by Jesus Christ". He says, "God, who has created all things", (Ephesians 3:9). Although it was the One whom we know that did it, yet it was God that did it; and that establishes the divinity of His own Person.

P. G. It says that all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell there.

J.T. You have, "By him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him. And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him". The first 'by' there indicates that the power used in creation was resident in Him, so that He is; it is not what He has become in these early statements about Him; it is what He is, as indicated in the things that He has done. He becomes Head too in redemption; but all is in the right of His own Person. But in verse 18, "that he might have" indicates that through death He has acquired something. The fulness dwelt in Him and by Him effected reconciliation. Here He is instrumental, but the fulness of the Godhead resided in Him.

G.W.W. Is the thought to lift the soul up to the greatness there is in Christ?

J.T. I am sure that is so. The thought of the Person of Christ so grips the affections of the saints that they go forward. It is peculiarly needed as we come over Jordan, hence the prominence given to the ark there.

G.W.W. Would you be prepared to say where you think the Colossians were, in view of what is set forth in the crossing of the Jordan?

J.T. I think they are regarded as over.

G.W.W. That is, they have reached the position you spoke of as the lodging place. It is not to incite them to pass over, but a presentation of Christ to them in the lodging place.

J.T. That is right. The principle of Colossians is entering.

G.W.W. So that the end in view is that they might advance from the lodging place into the full thought of God for them; is that the objective?

J.T. Exactly. They are risen with Christ by faith, chapter 2: 12; that is another thing to notice. It is a question of faith. Colossians does not mean that I am risen literally, but by faith; it is a certainty because of the known power of God; it is "through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". And what goes with that is the quickening In virtue of this there is power in the believer; for it was stipulated that a man out of each tribe was to take a stone out of the bed of the Jordan and put it on his shoulder and take it up. That required power; it is a symbol of the power of each tribe. The whole are regarded as over Jordan "by faith", but in addition there is the work of God, so that a man is able to take up a stone. That is not a matter of faith, but actuality. It is in keeping with what God has done, but only in a very small way. It is the power working in my soul. The power of God was seen in the ark the power and glory of God. Those men could not force the Jordan back. It was forced back God did that but they take up the stones. And in these stones, taken and placed where they lodged, there is the witness of the power of God in us; that we are risen (by faith) and quickened. Quickening enables us to enter into association with Christ where He is; it is with Him.

Eu.R. Is that involved in verse 2? "Strengthened with all power according to the might of his glory".

J.T. Exactly; that is what the apostle desired for them. I think the thing was there already; so to speak they had carried over the stones: "In the which also ye have been raised with him". But the Colossians had not yet taken possession of the land and were in danger, as we were remarking.

J.J. So although the Spirit is not directly spoken of, it is implied all through?

J.T. It is the work of the Spirit that is implied. It is beyond Romans; because taking the stone up out of the bed of Jordan implies power the power of life.

J.J. Does the mediatorial power of the Spirit come in in Colossians?

J.T. It does come in. "Love in the Spirit", chapter 1:8, is a mediatorial principle; that is, it was life of that kind.

P.L. The man puts the stone on his shoulder; does that suggest constitutional strength?

J.T. I think it does. It is the result in us of the quickening power of God. They were to prepare themselves "victuals", (Joshua 1:11), and this would have in view the needed constitution for the great undertaking ahead.

G.W.W. And is all that an apprehension of what is set forth in the ark? There is power to take up such a movement.

J.T. Yes. Colossians in that respect is a question of being brought into correspondence with Christ. In Him is all that is needed, but we are brought into it by the work of the Spirit.

J.C.S. Is the thought that it was the same power morally that drove the Jordan back?

J.T. That is it. He does "exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us", (Ephesians 3:20). That is it; there is no other power.

Ques. Would fighting ability come in here?

J.T. That does not come in yet, but there is the preparation for it. What I think should impress us here is the Person of Christ. He is so presented to our hearts as to enter into our constitution, because it is interwoven with the truth of creation and the truth of redemption.

J.R.S. What is the order in this way in which His glory is presented, starting with "image of the invisible God" and ending with being Head of the assembly?

J.T. It goes further than that. It ends with, "In him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell". You can see how forcefully the truth of His Person is presented, for it is interwoven with the truth as we should receive it in our souls; that is, the truth of the Person of Christ should be in our souls, as we have the truth of our salvation, and the knowledge of the creation. The thing is to have the truth of the Person of Christ in our souls; so that it begins with "the image of the invisible God". Everything is to receive the divine impress. Besides the literal creation, as in (Genesis 1), there were 'thrones, principalities and authorities' all were created by Him and for Him. His headship of the church was through death. Then, "All the fullness … was pleased to dwell". There is a moral thought in that it was pleased to dwell in Christ. Nothing at all was lacking in the fulness. All that God -- the Deity -- is was there in Him, and was pleased to dwell there. Reconciliation is to bring us into accord with that. This leads on to the church being God's dwelling, by the Spirit, (Ephesians 2).

G.W.W. You are consciously in accord with that.

E.R. And the church is equal to it.

READINGS IN COLOSSIANS (2)

Colossians 2; Colossians 3:1 - 11

J.T. In this meeting we may see the relation between verse 15 of chapter 1, Christ the "image of the invisible God", and verse 10 of chapter 3, in which the new man is said to be "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him". Pursuant to what was said this morning about the divine impress being on all, it may be remarked that the Colossians evidently had reached the life stage, that is, life in a practical, substantial sense, and the object, among other things, in the epistle is to place the divine impress on that. The presence of life is indicated in the fact that they had love for "all the saints" and "love in the Spirit". The carrying of the stone in (Joshua 4) by a representative of each tribe would point to this; they were in life, and were set down in relation to one another at Gilgal, but the divine impress was to be worked out, and the stones were to be a memorial. Their children should ask them what they meant. "What mean ye by these stones?" that is the first question; the second question is, "What mean these stones?" First it is, "What mean ye by these stones?" as if the onus is put upon the saints to convey the meaning.

We have already seen the enlargement given in (Colossians 1) to the Person of Christ, and His headships; and then the ministries of Paul are evidently to work those features out in us, on the principle of divine representation.

H.H. I was struck with what you have drawn attention to, first, of Christ Himself being the image of the invisible God, and then the reference in chapter 3 to the new man as "renewed into full knowledge according to the image of him that has created him". Is the thought that that image is transferred to the believer?

J.T. Yes; and the new man in this epistle is

suggestive of what is young or fresh; so that the idea of image is to be impressed on fresh young life, but in the way of knowledge renewal of knowledge. The idea of renewal, "renewed into full knowledge", is that it is to be new in the sense of being different from what the Greek or the ceremonialist would have in mind. Colossians has in mind the freshness and energy of life in the saints as set in relation to one another; not necessarily gathered together, but set in relation to one another, as indicated in the twelve stones; that the "image of him that created him" should be in the new man.

H.H. Would you say in regard of Colossians generally that it does not suppose the saints as convened?

J.T. That is not the point of view. It is our being united in life, whether we are convened or not. The apostle speaks of the 'order' that marked them, and this would allude to them as gathered together.

H.H. Is the thought that the work of God is such, that God can put His own impress upon it?

J.T. Yes; and that would fit in with present current conditions. There is a good deal of energy, but we need to be representative of God.

F.H.B. Does the new man represent the sum of God's work in all the saints?

J.T. I think so. Colossians is dealing with the saints as a whole, although the saints at Colosse were immediately in view; but what I have remarked is only to indicate what we may see. I think we ought specially to notice the headships of Christ in chapter 1 and the ministries of Paul; because these come in with peculiar weight in Colossians. It is not arbitrary, but more that they are presented in their own weight. The headship of Christ in creation is the effect of His own power then His headship of the church through redemption; and then His being here as an instrumentality for the Godhead His deity asserted in that the fulness dwelt there;

the Godhead reconciling by Him all things and persons; and then the ministries of Paul following on that all coming in with their own peculiar weight. Thus it is the idea of ministry, not so much authority by itself, as what appeals to you in a moral way. Paul was the minister of the gospel and the minister of the church.

H.H. Would you say that the truth of the greatness of Christ is brought in in order to lift the saints up to appreciate what the assembly is, as that of which He is the Head?

J.T. I think so; it is to impress and attract us. Thus we are led into the full purpose, of God, drawn into the fulness of the mystery. The mystery is not fully stated in this epistle, but the apprehension of Christ as Head will lead us into it as in Ephesians.

H.E.S. Are the two thoughts of image referred to here somewhat on the line of the gospel and epistle of John? In the gospel it is, "Which thing is true in him", and in the epistle, "Which thing is true ... in you".

J.T. Yes. The epistle corresponds because it is a question of what is true in us. It is what the life is and whereat is; it is in Christ it is seen. The subject really is life in that epistle; but here, whilst life is brought in, it is rather as that on which God through Christ can place his impress which is another line. Colossians has heaven in view; our hope is laid up there Christ is in us, the hope of glory.

Eu.R. Is the assembly unique in that it says He is Head to it?

J.T. Yes. It is the body in Colossians "Head of the body", chapter 1:18. That is the full idea as adding to His glory.

D.L.H. What is the exact bearing of the mystery in chapter 2, "in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" verse 3?

J.T. The full thought is in Ephesians, God heading up all things In Christ, things in heaven and things on

earth. The church being His body He is Head over all things to it. It is brought in here as a corrective or saving element, as he says, "I say this to the end that no one may delude you by persuasive speech". He brings it in, not so much to develop the mystery, as to bring out that all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge were there, and, therefore, they did not need anything outside of it.

D.L.H. Was not the danger at Colosse reverting to human wisdom, so that the fact of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge being wrapped up in the mystery is brought in to divert them from that?

J.T. That is how it stands, because he goes on to say, "See that there be no one who shall lead you away as a prey through philosophy and vain deceit", and so forth.

A.S.L. Then it is the mystery of God in this chapter; not the mystery of Christ exactly, but the "mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge". As you say, it is the full thing and all that is hidden in it.

J.T. That is the thought. The Colossians apparently were not equal to entering into it fully; so that he does not proceed with it, but brings it in to shew that the treasures of wisdom and knowledge were there.

J.R.S. It says, "And he is the head of the body, the assembly", and that is followed up immediately by, "Who is the beginning"; what is the point in that?

A.S.L. That is a very wonderful word, "Who is the beginning".

J.T. "Who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things". It is not 'from' the beginning, but that He is it; He is the beginning of everything that is for God.

H.F.N. Would you mind saying a little more on the thought of securing the material? Did I understand you to say it was that on which God could put His image?

J.T. I think that is a point we should specially notice; because it is a question of life in Colossians; that is, life by quickening. It is, therefore, not simply the Holy Spirit in us as life potentially as in Romans; but it is life by quickening. Life was seen at the passage of the Jordan. In the types, in this respect, the Holy Spirit begins with (Numbers 21). He is life there potentially and from the time of the recognition of Him the people move on; but there is more than that as you reach Jordan. It is a question of the effect of the Spirit; so that the stone lilted out of the bed of Jordan and carried out on the shoulder by a representative of each of the tribes, denotes that the persons are marked by power.

M.W.B. Are you speaking of life in a subjective way now?

J.T. Exactly; the believer is not only 'reckoned' alive, as in Romans, he is alive by the quickening power of God.

M.W.B. Life is sometimes spoken of objectively, and I only wanted to get clear that you have what is subjective before you.

J.T. I have; what in the types is seen in twelve persons representative of the whole nation, under the direction of Joshua, each taking a stone and carrying it up and placing it where they were to lodge. There is life (in the sense of power) there; but then that life is now in a new sphere, and it is a question of how it is to be regulated and impressed. I should like that we may get hold of that. The title of God to all the creation was in view in the passage of the Jordan; and so the headships of Christ, brought in in relation to His Person, are intended to impress us. He is introduced as "image of the invisible God". We are on new ground. It is no longer a question simply of intelligence objectively; we are in a new position and alive in it. Rahab, as we said, is the link here. It is not a question now of the effect of a powerful ministry in the wilderness; but rather the life in itself manifested. Evidently the apostle had

not been there. Colossians is to bring out the thing itself; and the greatness of the headships of Christ, as in chapter 1, and the ministries of Paul, I believe, are intended to impress us with their great weight; not so much formal authority as in the wilderness in Moses, but by their own weight, because the Person of Christ is interwoven with the truth itself. As in redemption and creation, the headships are intended to impress us, and so are Paul's ministries.

M.W.B. That is why you are emphasising the newness, freshness of the life. It is imperishable. Do you link that with what you said at Worcester as to the girl of twelve years of age?

J.T. Yes; she is a good illustration of it, so that great care is taken that it should be stripped of everything that would becloud it; and hence the great care in the opening of Joshua in regard to the position in Canaan, so that there should not be a taint from all that preceded, nor anything that should becloud the thing that was there, but that it should be there in its own intrinsic worth. Hence you get, as I said, the evidence of life in the carrying up of the stones and placing them together; and there was the idea of 'victuals'; food is needed. It is a time when there is great need of sustenance from suitable food; as was said with regard to the little girl, something should be given her to eat.

Then you have the stopping of one kind of food and the introduction of another; that is, the transition from the manna to the heavenly food. It is a delicate position because it is a change of food, as in the bringing up of a child, and everything is reckoned carefully so that the life according to God should be in the land. Rahab was already there. She had not come under the influence of the ministry of Moses, but she had heard of what Jehovah did at the Red sea that is, in the death and resurrection of Christ; and of what they did, which points to the power of the Spirit of God in the saints.

She had heard about those things, and she knew the effect of the tidings on all the inhabitants of Canaan was that they were as dead men. That is an evidence of something by itself; and faith is attributed to her in Hebrews, after being attributed to Israel as to the passage of the Red sea. "By faith they passed through the Red sea", and now faith is in the land in a person that had not come under the influence of Moses. Then you have the idea of food, first the victuals and then the change of food. Then we have the circumcision, six hundred thousand or more all circumcised at once; that is to say, you are brought down to a state of weakness, for the flesh profits nothing. That is the position here. There is thus room for the power of God to act.

M.W.B. It is remarkable that Agag was slain at Gilgal: "And Agag came ... delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past ... . And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal".

J.T. He was slain by Samuel. The fact that Saul was at Gilgal did not add anything to him, and did not give him one atom of discernment or power, shewing that the outward thing is of no value, without the corresponding effect in us. Gilgal became discredited afterwards, coming under the influence of the flesh. Amos says, "At Gilgal multiply transgression".

J.J. How do you regard the other twelve stones put into the bed of the river?

J.T. Those in the Jordan are a testimony that we have, been in death, and that the life we have is not acquired in the flesh at all; it is a life out of death. That is the principle of it. We have been "buried with him in baptism". The stones set in Jordan was Joshua's act. Christ shewed His disciples His hands and his side as risen. There is the evidence in Him that He has been in death, and thus we have been there.

P.L. It says of Rahab that Joshua saved her alive, would that go with this thought of life?

J.T. That is good; and then the idea of continuance that we noted this morning. She continued "to this day" in Israel. And she had the Colossian trait of hiding; she hid the spies, and also directed them to hide themselves on the mountain.

A.S.L. Would Colossians 2 give the idea at all of an experimental passing through the Jordan and coming out of it on the other side? The apostle says, "Ye are complete in him", and then goes on, "In whom also ye have been circumcised with circumcision not done by hand, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ; buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". And then, "Quickened together with him". I thought perhaps that referred to something they had experimentally been through in getting on to this new ground.

J.T. That is right, and so it is the position at Gilgal that is in view; they had reached that point. The hiding place suggests that they were not to remain there, as already said, but Gilgal is a camping place; they returned there after their conquests; it implied habitual self judgment.

A.S.L. Have not we got to resort there?

J.T. Yes; "mortify therefore". I do think God is helping the brethren as to our meetings and ministry, but I believe He would raise the question with us as to the extent of His work in us, for that is all that counts, and I believe the more you consider Rahab the more you see that she represents it. The thing is there that God values; but her public history is intended to be humbling. Life is evidenced in faith, intelligence and confidence. God is aiming at getting that life in its fulness, so as to impress it, because there is to be a family in heaven, as well as a family on earth, which is moulded on a certain pattern. The idea of life underlies everything for God;

but God moulding or patterning the families is what is so important. He intends to bring out the greatest result from us, and hence the importance of development in life, and the removal of what hinders it. The epistle of John helps us in this, it directs us inwards, to make soundings, to see where we are as regards the work of God; leaving aside all that we may have learned from books and the like, to find out just what is the extent of the work of God in us.

H.H. "Christ in you" I was wondering whether that would fit in with what you said about Christ being so interwoven with the truth viewed subjectively.

J.T. That is the way it is presented in Colossians; I think "quickened ... with him" means that Christ had a place. They had followed Him over Jordan, so to speak. They were lovers of Christ. They were quickened with Him, and raised with Him, but not here said to be seated in the heavenlies in Him. The mystery here is "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

H.H. That is the thought of life.

J.T. That is it; Christ is our life, chapter 3:4. Then there is the hope, the glory is not yet reached, chapter 1:27.

A.S.L. Quickening is not by faith. We are risen by faith, but quickening is the work of God.

F.H.B. And it applies to persons. It is not only having the Spirit potentially, but the person is quickened.

J.T. The whole person is affected.

A.S.L. And it is in contrast to a state of death.

J.T. And the fact that they were quickened is seen typically in the carrying up of the stones; that was the evidence of power. Quickening is from a state of moral death "dead in offences and in the uncircumcision of your flesh".

Ques. How would the expression in Galatians fit in with the subject of life here? "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God", (Galatians 2:20).

J.T. "The life which I now live in the flesh" is his life in the wilderness. It is not what we are dealing with here. Colossians is over Jordan; (Galatians 2:20) refers to Paul's life here; but being by "the faith of the Son of God". What Christ is in resurrection and glory filled his heart.

A.S.L. That is rather objective.

J.T. It would be; but here we are seeking to get at the position that the saints are brought into in living affections, which is by the Spirit. It is not only local; there is too much localism, but I think the Lord is helping us to be general in our affections, to love all the saints. This is a great position; because the full apprehension of Christ as Head, and of the mystery, is that which supersedes this world altogether, and that which is to abide when this world is gone. The saints have not come to that generally, so there is exposure to an impress of another kind, such as clever speaking. The first danger pointed out in chapter 2 is "persuasive speech"; we have to be on our guard against that. Gift of course would carry with it ability to express it in speech, but persuasive speech has to be watched, and then learning too; the apostle is contemplating what is a danger under these circumstances "philosophy and vain deceit, according to the teaching of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ".

M.W.B. Would the contrast to that be coming under the influence of the headship of Christ and the mystery?

J.T. That is most important; they come in in the way of impressive weight. Then in chapter 2 the idea of the mystery is something in which everything in the way of wisdom and knowledge is hidden. That is a great thought to get into the soul. It is brought in as a saving feature; and then the correspondence with Christ that marks us, objectively, in His circumcision and His resurrection. "Buried with him in baptism"; it is now a question of with Him, correspondence with Him, which

love delights in. In Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; so that there is no need to go outside of Him; all is there and available for us.

A.S.L. Not holding fast the Head is characteristic of the false teacher.

G.W.W. Is what you have in mind that we are not engaged now with Satan's opposition to a certain life for God in the wilderness; but his opposition to the Christian passing on into the enjoyment of life in its own sphere; a system of affections, which is proper to that life?

J.T. Quite; and working out in the saints universally loving one another, manifesting the traits of the new man; for God would impress on us the image of Him that created the new man.

Ques. In connection with the stones being taken out of Jordan to which you referred earlier, have you in mind the affections of all the saints?

J.T. They are set down together as representative of unity, twelve of them; it is unity in life. Our hearts are to "be encouraged, being united together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God".

Eu.R. Does the family at Bethany stand in that relation?

J.T. It does. It is pretty much the idea in (John 12), and so Christ coming in would impress them. He would be owned as Head there.

Eu.R. You do not get "neither male nor female" here, do you? Chapter 3:11.

J.T. No; you have it in (Galatians 3), where sonship is presented as taking us out of the realm to which the law applies. The testimony here is in view in the new man, and so man and his wife are noted in Colossians. The type in Joshua helps us as to all this; you have this new life in evidence, and pains taken to strip it of everything that would becloud it, so that you might have the thing

itself; and then the nourishment that it needs. It is carried along to this point on wilderness food, special victuals being mentioned in view of going over the Jordan and carrying the stones out of the bed of it. But now you need another food, (Joshua 5), "the old corn of the land". The manna ceases; it is a most critical position, because if I cannot live on the old corn of the land, I must succumb. We must learn that the manna has ceased. Then the position is changed. At the end of (Joshua 5) a man appears to Joshua with a drawn sword in his hand, meaning that now as adjusted to the new position, and having taken on heavenly food we are regarded as heavenly warriors. Colossians does not lead us that far, but only shews the bearing of the truth that the Lord would lead us on from this point to the full heavenly position designed for us as in Ephesians. So that now Joshua himself, the leader up to this point, and the link really between Moses and the captain of the Lord's hosts, has to learn that there is another leader.

J.J. Is the point evident in Colossians where the food changes?

J.T. Chapter 2 makes way for it, but this epistle hardly takes us to the position to which the "old corn" applies. We are led up to that point where we begin to see Christ in heaven; the "old corn of the land" is Christ in His own sphere. I do not know much about it, but I see in it that there is a point to be reached by us, and if we reach it and hold it in our souls we shall be right as to all else. That is what God is leading us on to, and to this end we specially need to understand life as seen here the thing in itself; but whilst you are quickened, when you come to the thing you enjoy, it is Christ; Christ is our life. As in this life we are united practically, and thus the grace of Christ works out in a collective way the new man.

H.H. The new man is more than an individual thought; it is collective.

J.T. It is collective, including all the saints. It is not a question of our being together, as in Corinthians, but collective in the sense of including all the saints. The same traits are seen in the saints everywhere, Christ being all things and in all.

H.H. It is more than a kingdom thought.

J.T. It is; and even more than an assembly thought, as in 1 Corinthians. Although it enters into that, it is a question of what God is effecting in all the saints.

E.J.McB. That is what is proper to all the people of God.

J.T. That is right, for if God is operating in me. He is operating in relation to all the saints. That is an important thing to remember; if He is operating in any one of us. He is operating in relation to all; so Colossians and Ephesians treat of the whole work of God, especially Ephesians.

J.J. Does (John 6) help at all in connection with the change of food?

J.T. Yes; it is for the individual. But I do not think (John 6) takes you over Jordan. It is for life, of course if we eat we live but Canaan contemplates all the saints; it is God operating in all the saints. We must never lose sight of that, hence the twelve stones in (Joshua 4). (John 6) is Christ as bread come down from heaven; the old corn is Christ in heaven.

H.E.S. You spoke of the new position; is quickening always in view of our being made to live in connection with the new position?

J.T. That is the idea; you are quickened with Christ; you are thus in association with Him in the new place. Many have missed it in making quickening an objective thing; whereas it is to bring you consciously to the new position so as to occupy it suitably.

M.W.B. Is that why the positional thought of risen is linked with faith; whereas quickening is not so?

J.T. Quickening is actual. I think you will agree

that if God is working in you. He is working in you in relation to all the saints.

M.W.B. So whilst it might be reached individually, yet what is reached is proper to all.

J.T. And further, if you reach a point in your soul normally, you wish all to reach it. That is love for all the saints; life works out in that way.

Ques. Had Rahab reached it when she said, "I know that Jehovah has given you tile land"?

J.T. She is very humble in her remarks, but in truth she represents the life that has been reached. We must view all that appears in her in a spiritual way, and in the light of the antitype.

E.R. Does not the thought of 'with him' help us to understand it?

J.T. The point in chapter 2 is to be brought into correspondence with Christ. You are circumcised in His circumcision, risen with Him "through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead", and then you are quickened with Him. It is all in association with Christ. God will have His people in His land, not as units, but all circling around Christ.

G.W.W. Does the matter of the stones in Solomon's temple help at all? They were subject to certain operations in order to take their place on mount Zion.

J.T. It is the same idea.

G.W.W. They were not operated on simply for their own sake, but in view of a certain position they were to occupy. Is that the thought?

J.T. Exactly. Peter takes that up in the living stones.

A.S.L. So it is emphasised in Ephesians that there is one new man, not millions of new men, but one new man.

J.T. In Canaan everything points to Christ. That is Colossians; you are standing in relation to Christ. The new life, however small, stands in relation to Christ, and that is what we come to here: "Christ is everything, and in all".

J.C.S. Is that what you meant by a sphere where Christ is everything, and is cherished as Head in the affections of the saints?

J.T. That is right.

H.H. I would like to ask what you understand by the manna? It went over Jordan; it says, "The manna ceased on the morrow, when they had eaten of the old corn of the land".

J.T. It is what Christ was in everyday life here. You find it everywhere, for He entered into all human circumstances, sin apart.

H.H. It is still food for the saints.

J.T. Food as in the wilderness, but not as in the land, it will never sustain you in the land. You will not find it there, because Christ is not in heaven in the circumstances in which He was here, He is in other circumstances. That is what the mount of transfiguration means, that you might see, in a sense, what is up there.

M.W.B. Do you not think we need to know more of that side of Christ what He is where He is? One feels how little one has touched that side of things.

J.T. Well, I think that is what we may come to here; so chapter 2 is a sort of adjusting chapter. It is the application of the death of Christ in certain relations to adjust our souls, so that we might be free of everything that would becloud this precious, new, fresh, life which is in us. Philosophy and vain deceit, the traditions of men and ceremonialism; then the "law of commandments contained in ordinances" had all been nailed to His cross. That ought to touch our hearts, because the nailing was in Him but in this connection it is that He took away everything that might becloud or clog the saints in the development of this new life and their entrance into the sphere which divine love had prepared for them.