Pages 1 - 98 -- "The Rights and Patience of God in Testimony". Belfast and Dublin, 1934 (Volume 118)

THE RIGHTS AND PATIENCE OF GOD IN TESTIMONY (1)

1 Kings 17:1 - 24

J.T. Those who have read the book of Kings with attention will discern that this chapter begins a section, in which is worked out the thought of God's rights; as conditions reached their worst in Israel. Then further, we have the thought of His patience, Ahab and Jezebel affording examples of the worst influences that had been in Israel, for in them is developed the greatest wickedness -- and yet God uses Ahab, and helps him against the Syrians, and then ultimately saves Jehoshaphat, although he was in a false position when, as allied with Ahab, he went to war. These chapters, therefore, afford much instruction for us; and the first feature of the instruction is in the discipline and formation of the vessel through whom God spoke and wrought.

W.H.M. Elijah says, "Jehovah ... before whom I stand", but he had something else to learn.

J.T. Yes, he had come into the attitude of service; so that a secret, untold history is suggested. The epistle of James throws light on the first verse, because James tells us that Elijah was a man "of like passions to us" (chapter 5: 17), so that he was not anything extraordinary in that sense, thus bringing the service of God within the range of anyone. "He prayed with prayer", it says, meaning that he was a man who had learned how to pray, which must precede all useful service. His was not only a formal prayer, but that which is really prayer. The result was that "it did not rain upon the earth three years and six months; and again he prayed, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth caused its fruit to spring forth". We are reminded in the first prayer, of what is secret in the history of God's servants, for there is no

allusion to it in the Old Testament. God will not identify Himself with any servant save as he has a secret history with Himself earlier, and has learned how to pray; that is, prayer means that I depend on God, not on myself. "The surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us", 2 Corinthians 4:7. The position is thus clear enough as applicable today. The previous chapter depicts the darkness of the state that prevailed in Israel, but at the darkest hour God brings forward an unlikely man, a man hitherto unheard of, but who had had relations with Himself and had learned how to pray, to depend on God. He takes him up and puts him through certain exercises, and then uses him in the most striking manner, as a vessel of His power.

T.G. Is that why he is said to be "of the inhabitants of Gilead" -- he was not known till God called him, he was in secret with God.

J.T. Yes, he was from a territory that was under reproach spiritually; Gilead was under reproach as the territory of the two and a half tribes -- the sovereignty of God is evidenced in that.

H.B. Would that come in as a rebuke to those in the land, that one from that territory should be chosen?

J.T. Yes. The nine and a half tribes would assume they had special spiritual advantages, but God is not restricting Himself to those who make claims; as soon as we begin to make claims, God shows He is not under obligation to us on those grounds; He acts on account of what He is in Himself.

P.L. The early ministry of the great Prophet, the Lord, in Mark's gospel is much in Galilee. Is the place of it a rebuke to apostate Israel?

J.T. That is the thought in the Lord's great activities in Galilee in the synoptic gospels; it is to bring out that God is slighting the claims of Jerusalem. Elijah's subsequent history shows that he had relations with God. Our relations with God should arise, not from any specific feature of God's work or ways, but from our

knowledge of Himself, that is, it is a question of God.

P.L. And does that knowledge of God enable us to hold Him to His promises, so that, however dark the day, we can refer to Him as the God of Israel?

J.T. Yes, it is that God. "As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth", that is, it is the covenant God, which implies all that He is, in so far as He may be known. Paul says, "God, who ... called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:15, 16. It is the full thought of God. Service ought to be based on the full thought of God.

J.C. Was Paul referring to his conversion in the verse quoted from Galatians?

J.T. Yes, but it is a fuller thought; he refers to more than is recorded of his experience outside Damascus. The revelation of God's Son in him includes more than that, his commission is involved -- "That I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations".

Rem. We usually connect prayer with blessing, here it is to withhold it, there was to be no rain.

J.T. The withholding of blessing in a disciplinary way is with a view to blessing, so that we might be prepared to enjoy it. The two prayers viewed together imply blessing; discipline has blessing in view. The shutting up of the heavens for three years and six months seems severe, and Elijah had to go through the experience himself. We must bear in mind that, if we pray for anything, we cannot escape the consequences. If our prayers have to do with the people of God, we must go through the thing we pray for, with them; if it be disciplinary, we must go through it with them. The thing is with a view to blessing -- he prayed again: it is all of one piece, we must have the two prayers. If we are with God, we learn God has blessing in view. Jehovah the God of Israel implies the covenant God. God is true to His covenant. If the servant sees that discipline of this severe kind is necessary and asks for it, God accedes to his wish; and then he has to go through

the thing with the people, but he goes through it with great advantage. He is with God, and God knows where the torrent is, but the servant has to go through the discipline. That is the teaching of this chapter. It is a question of going through things with God, so that there is a feeling with us about them. It is all very well to pray that a brother might be disciplined, seeing that he needs it, but going through the thing is another matter; in going through it, you have power as to it. It is a certainty that in praying for a brother I shall have power with him in time, if I go through things myself. Elijah is immediately sent -- "The word of Jehovah came to him saying, Get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the torrent Cherith, which is before the Jordan". This position, the torrent Cherith in the neighbourhood of the Jordan, has a great deal in it for faith: as there, I am in the presence of something that may dry up, a very solemn matter. Plenty of water at a given moment may not always last. God has a means of drying up the brooks, and Elijah had to go through the experience of seeing the means of his supply dry up; that is a solemn matter! Then moreover, he had to learn God's power in the creation. We, perhaps, overlook that, in intervening for us, God wishes us to understand Him, not only in redemption but in creation; the servant has to learn God in creation. He is a faithful Creator, and He has great resources in the creation.

C.A.B. How would drying up the brooks refer to us now?

J.T. In the removal of those whom God has fitted to refresh His people. The man with a pitcher of water may not always last; we know how the Lord removes those whom He uses in the service of refreshment. We do well to keep that in mind that we might value what we have.

J.McC.R. The meaning of Elijah's name has a bearing on his ministry -- 'Whose God is Jehovah'.

J.T. Very good.

P.L. Would the turning eastward suggest that, while you humbly thank God for the brook, you can survive the drying up of it?

J.T. Yes, 'eastward' is a region of hope. Elijah had not a word of complaint so far, but the education of a brook drying up is important for those who serve, we may have been drinking from other sources, depending on other brothers, or other ministry, but that may come to an end. Elijah has to go through that experience, and it would result for us in this, that one can say: As far as I am concerned, the brooks will not dry up; that is to say, one relies on the Spirit of God oneself and thus I become a means of supply. Then the creational resources of God have to be apprehended; He is a faithful Creator and has agencies He can employ. If men are not available to Him, He is not without resource, and the agency used here is the raven. Nature teaches us, we are told, and the teaching of the ravens here would be unselfishness. A raven is a carnivorous bird, and why should he deny himself to bring flesh to Elijah? Why does he not devour it himself? It would be unselfishness; and that is what the woman had to learn. Elijah learned from the ravens the principle of unselfishness, and now the woman of Zarephath has to learn that principle too -- "make me thereof a little cake first".

W.J.W. The raven was an unclean bird, was it not? Why did God use the raven in particular?

J.T. To show what resources He has. He left it to Noah to determine which were the unclean birds. When we come to a crisis like this, there is nothing unclean in itself. "Every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, being received with thanksgiving", 1 Timothy 4:4. The fact that the raven's character was changed would show that God had cleansed it, Acts 10. We have to learn these things -- what God has in His creation. God can bring His creation into accord with Himself, for these lessons of unselfishness all centre in Christ. It is a question of what God is in His creation,

awaiting the time when He shall be fully expressed.

W.H.M. I was thinking of that word, "my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus", Philippians 4:19. Elijah was learning that.

J.T. Yes, and he was being instructed in the spirit of thanksgiving. "Every creature of God is good". "Meats, which God has created for receiving with thanksgiving for them who are faithful and know the truth" -- a very great lesson that God would teach us in nature, "Does not even nature itself teach you?" 1 Corinthians 11:14.

H.L. Why is he told to hide himself?

J.T. It is important for the servant to learn to hide himself, especially if he has great gift; it is the teaching of Colossians; when God enjoins it, it is the more important. "Get thee hence and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the torrent Cherith, which is before the Jordan". He is hiding himself in a good place, there is refreshment -- bread and flesh. These things are amplified in Christ -- bread and flesh. He is the bread of God, and He gives His flesh for the life of the world. It may be humbling to learn from a creature, from nature, but it is important that we should not miss the lessons of nature, for "the invisible things of him are perceived, being apprehended by the mind through the things that are made, both his eternal power and divinity", Romans 1:20. That encourages us as to the whole race of mankind in all its history; God has not left Himself without a witness in creation. He has His ravens and asses.

W.C.G. Would not the bread and flesh represent the doctrine of the Christ: "rooted and built up in him, and assured in the faith" (Colossians 2:7): and yet we need the water as well, we need the unction of the Spirit to give it vitality?

J.T. It is a learning place, that is the thought in hiding. It is a most instructive chapter if we are to

have part in the great patience of God in His testimony towards christendom. Christendom embraces about five hundred millions; am I to have any part in the testimony of God to that wide area? We see here how God can be so patient as to use a man like Ahab. I have to be brought alongside God to learn His patience, and I have to be nourished in this way in hiding. I do not suppose it was any great trial to Elijah to be hidden away, for he was a man who had a secret history with God, or he could not have stood as he did. This is nevertheless a further lesson.

P.L. Is there something akin to Philadelphia in this? Elijah, having learned the resources of God through so many different agencies, would connect with the "opened door". Then the Lord speaks of "the word of my patience" and there is the "little power". Everything is small here: the brook -- a "little water" -- "a morsel of bread" -- "a handful of meal" -- "a little oil", and so on. Is this like Philadelphia?

J.T. Yes, I think it is the setting of the whole Apocalypse. "I, John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus", Revelation 1:9. He was equal to the service put upon him, to write "what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these". He is to write as the Lord touches him. He puts His right hand upon him; he is under the touch of Christ; but he is "in the ... kingdom and patience in Jesus", he is a brother and companion of the saints in tribulation.

Ques. Would you connect the thought of the ravens with Onesiphorus, who diligently sought out Paul when he was in such reproach? (2 Timothy 1:17).

J.T. Very good. He found him -- these ravens had to find the prophet, and they brought refreshment. Onesiphorus refreshed the apostle. He was not ashamed of Paul's chain.

Ques. Would you say we are all to take up the reproach of the situation as seeking to serve, and to be committed to God, standing before Him in the service, like Elijah?

J.T. Yes, that is the lesson, to be hidden; not to seek to make a show by preaching immediately, or taking a reading, or a special meeting, as we say, but to learn in secret with God, knowing fully the actual situation which you are in; a situation which you have brought about by your prayers, as it were. Then, being regulated by God in that very situation which you have yourself brought about by prayer, God follows you up to see that you do not get elated by the great place you have, but that you are hidden away, and kept in the enjoyment of these positive things, all coming about in the most unlikely way; a humiliating way indeed. The ravens were under reproach, but they are doing this work well, morning and night, and every time they come, you would say, 'Thank God for the unselfishness of those birds': they would become great in your eyes.

H.B. The example of the ravens should help us in our ministrations to those who serve the Lord.

J.T. Yes, that is the idea; that the saints should all become of the raven kind, morning and night looking after those whom God has set aside for His service.

P.L. The Philippian jailor setting the table for the servants of God would be a kind of raven.

J.T. Quite so: a very unclean one to begin with -- a jailor. This learning from nature is humiliating, it would be so to Elijah, that an unclean bird should be feeding him; but he would begin to see through the mere letter of the law; to see that after all we have to connect God's creatures with Himself, and not to regard them as unclean and detach them from God; that would be misleading. They are God's creatures; as already said, the type shows there had been divine cleansing. Then the saints have to come to see that we are to be servants like the ravens, that is a lesson for every saint. This

service of God is to be carried on, and if so, there must be bread and flesh morning and night for those whom God is using. I may despise the ravens, but am I up to them? Is there the element of unselfishness, that cares every morning and night? Bread and flesh is needed, for it is a question of strong meat; these servants of God need all the support we can give them. Then there is the water coming down; it is a torrent, not a pool, the water comes of itself; it is not merely that it is forced to come, it is a symbol of the energetic action of the Spirit in the way of refreshment; the Spirit is here, active, a divine Person, and He moves of Himself.

Rem. "Doing good and communicating of your substance be not forgetful, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased", Hebrews 13:16. Is that on the same line as the raven's service?

J.T. Quite so. It is humiliating to be on such low ground as the ravens, but we learn from nature how God puts into His unintelligent creatures the ability to reflect what He is Himself in unselfish service; all this is perfectly set out in Jesus. The Jordan is near by all the time; it is not a question of drinking out of Jordan, or of drinking death yet. There is always plenty of water there, we never hear of Jordan drying up, it overflows, it is the power of God in death; Elijah is not enjoined to drink of the Jordan. He now has to go straight across to the north-west, to a territory that would not be very attractive to him, Tyre and Sidon -- to a woman who is a widow, and God says, "I have commanded a widow woman there to maintain thee". This thought should be taken in, I think, that the servant is to be maintained. You cannot conceive of God sending out anyone at his own expense, or that he should be without what is necessary. He is to be maintained -- but then how? It is a widow woman; that denotes one whose means, whose resources, are cut off in the loss of her husband. So that we have a further lesson now, that is, the feeding of the household. We see what God

has in households in the case of the jailor at Philippi: what the apostle and Silas found in that house. The ravens are not spoken of as having houses, but the widow has a house; it is alluded to twice, her house is sustained, and then she is the mistress of it.

R.K.C. You find the Lord working in the same territory in Mark 7, but it is said of Him that He could not be hid.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord could not be hid, I suppose that comes into this chapter. The ravens did not tell the prophet that he was a man of God, the woman did; she said at the end of the chapter, "Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of Jehovah in thy mouth is truth". He is now becoming known, as the Lord was.

Ques. Why is she called "a widow woman?"

J.T. I suppose it is to stress the thought of "woman".

P.L. Is it in contrast to Jezebel, and also to Babylon? -- "I sit a queen, and I am not a widow". Jezebel was the daughter of the king of Zidon. It is in the very presence of the apostasy here, in Zidon, that this widow woman comes to light.

J.T. Just so. The combination of circumstances would suggest the great ministry God raised up about a century ago, and what it afforded. The two thoughts run together; the widow woman and her poverty denoting how very little there was among christians, but they learnt (in the revival of the truth of the house) what is in the house. Christians of a hundred years or so ago began to see there was something other than that which the clerical system afforded, or even required. The clerical system is a great system regarded as necessary for the preservation of divine things. The saints began to see that there was something outside of that. This woman had a little meal in a barrel, she had it in a suitable vessel. A barrel is a large kind of vessel, apparently it had been full and was greatly reduced; still the meal was in the proper vessel, it was

not taken out of it. And the oil was in the cruse, that is, in the proper vessel. It was in regard of that, that God helped the brethren, and out of it you have plenty for the development of what is living.

Rem. The woman is commanded to maintain Elijah, but she did not appear to be wholly prepared for it at first. She had the water -- what does that signify?

J.T. We are never wholly prepared for God's overtures, no person is: what God proposes is much beyond anything I am prepared for; but she came into it. It is remarkable that she came under Elijah's notice immediately he entered the city, and she is gathering two sticks. It is remarkable how definite she is. I think God takes account of definite people; people who are indefinite in the little things of life are not likely to be definite in the great things.

W.C.G. What is typified in the water and the oil?

J.T. I thought the first (verse 10) was the Spirit in His free action in meeting need. It is available at hand. In the other case the word is "torrent" (verse 4), meaning that gravity brings it down; but oil is dignity, which you would expect in a woman in her house. The Spirit is now to be understood as dignity, so that I do not need university or clerical honours in the things of God; the Spirit is dignity enough. He puts dignity upon the saints; she had the means of that in the house. The Spirit takes account of circumstances. He has to be viewed as meeting the thirst of the soul -- "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink" (John 7:37); but you learn afterwards that that same Spirit puts dignity upon you, makes you so that you do not need the degrees of the universities; they do not help you in the things of God, in the things of Christ, or in your service. It is the Spirit who puts dignity upon the service of God. I should think, when God works in a man who has these degrees, it must be a great difficulty for him to be free from the importance that attaches to them in human estimation.

J.C. I think you intimated that God has blessing in view in all this -- what would Ahab represent?

J.T. If you read chapter 16 you will see what he is -- he represents wickedness; the most consummate wickedness was there, he represents that -- and we see God acting in spite of that, not in judging it, but to show that He can use Ahab, even as He uses christendom in spite of what it is.

P.L. Does the word "Zarephath", meaning a place of refinement, suggest anything? Is that a Philadelphian setting that the best is made available by way of the furnace? -- the gold separated from the dross.

J.T. Very good, I think what comes out at Zarephath is the finishing thought. The woman has to learn the idea in the cake -- "make me ... a little cake first", as if God were to say to us, 'The assembly is in My mind in all this. It is the whole thought, not the multitude of religions that marks christendom. I have but one thought in My mind, that is the assembly, and I am not going to be diverted from it'. The woman has to act upon what the ravens had already manifested; she has to learn unselfishness and surrender to God. The prophet has to be taken here as representative of God's rights. And when Elijah says, "make me thereof a little cake first", I can conceive of the woman saying, 'What a selfish man that is!' and Elijah would feel that; but he had to do violence to his feelings to represent God, to bring in the great thought that God is not selfish. The acknowledgment of His rights involves our blessing, that is the result; and Elijah had to go through the shame and reproach of demanding a cake from a poor woman who had just a handful of meal in order to prove this to her. But she would never forget this, she would never forget how she had arrived at the whole thought in her soul. Just as a christian today gets the thought of the assembly, and says, 'I would not give up that for anything; I see there is one idea in the heart of God, and that is the assembly'.

A.E.L. Would you say a little as to the meal? You spoke of the water and the oil.

J.T. The meal would be an allusion to the humanity of Christ; it is that kind of humanity coming in now, the humanity of the Lord Jesus. "Other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 3:11. Jesus Christ is the kind of humanity that exists here in the presence of sin; all that has to be learnt, and that enters into the cake. What is in the mind of God is the assembly -- He never gives up that thought -- that which He purchased with the blood of His own, the assembly of God. At the very beginning He would impress on us, as He did on this woman, the thought that we belong to the Israel of God. The woman was to be unselfish in regard of God. I acknowledge the rights of God; He claims all I am, and all that I have; that is the epistle to the Romans. God was bringing this woman to unselfishness in regard of God, acknowledging the rights of God. God was testing her; He was testing Elijah and the woman at the same time, but Elijah represents the rights of God.

Ques. Is it not remarkable that when there are suitable conditions, there is always a little with the man of God? I was thinking of Jacob when he told his sons to carry a little balm and a little honey (Genesis 43:11).

J.T. Faith always has something.

J.McC.R. The Lord said there were many widows in the land of Israel, and here we see God asserting His rights in a sovereign way, to go outside the confines of Israel.

J.T. That is the way it is presented in the New Testament; but what a testimony it must have been to Elijah! How is he to get water and flesh all along the way until he reaches Zarephath? We have to learn it all spiritually.

Ques. Do we get the thought of hiding and sustaining suggested by Paul in the epistle to the Corinthians?

He reminds them he had not gone with wisdom of words and that he was with them in much fear and trembling; suggesting the thought of hiding: then he reminds them that out of their poverty the Macedonians had ministered to him; the spirit of the widow came out in them as they supplied what was lacking.

A.W.R. Are these experiences necessary for what we get in the following chapter -- "Go show thyself"?

J.T. When God tells you to show yourself there is something to be shown, but it is better for you to hide yourself till then. I think the suggestion as to what the apostle was at Corinth is good, for he was a tent maker; he hid himself as not knowing anything but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. He kept himself hidden, but then he was working with them; their faith was being set on the right foundation by the power of God. The widow is like Mary Magdalene, a subject for the teaching of God, but though a teachable person, she was on wrong lines when she was going to eat and die; she had to be put right, but she was definite. What you see in many is so much indefiniteness. It is haphazardness that sows so much mischief amongst us. If I am not definite in my business relations, and my private matters, it is not likely I shall be definite in the things of God. Now she becomes dignified; it is her house now -- she and her house were sustained. You say, 'She had only a son'; well, God clothes it with the dignified term of 'household', meaning that she is evidently growing. The idea of the household has been greatly stressed during the last forty years amongst us, for at one time nearly half those amongst us were Baptists; but God has brought us round to the thought of the household and this woman came to the idea of having a house, and later, she is called the mistress of the house.

P.L. So you have the desolate woman keeping house, and then she becomes in principle the joyful mother of sons (Psalm 113:9).

J.T. Quite so. This thought of the household is

important. I believe God is augmenting the assembly through the households. The household thought comes out in Paul, it is in his ministry you get it, and it is there you get the assembly properly. So the idea of the household and the idea of the assembly are both suggested here -- that is, in the little cake. The idea of the house comes in in Acts 16 first, in Lydia; it stands peculiarly in relation to Paul's ministry. The Lord opened the heart of Lydia that she attended to the things spoken by Paul. That is, she was a person of ability, so to speak, she attended to things, she paid attention to what was said to her. Then she said, "come into my house and abide there". She baptised her house, and then asked Paul and his company in.

P.L. You mean the household habitually feeding on the meal, Christ, the Second Man out of heaven, and the oil, the Spirit, will provide spiritual support to the assembly in the locality?

J.T. Exactly. There is the groundwork of the right kind of humanity in the house; the humanity that, if one becomes sick, is subject to resuscitation, is subject to the influence and impress of the man of God. That is a sure evidence of right conditions in a household, if the children are impressionable, if they recognise the man of God. So that it says, "it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so severe that there was no breath left in him. And she said to Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come to me to call mine iniquity to remembrance, and to slay my son?" He did not intend that, but it is a very wholesome thing for parents to call to mind earlier days, and review their whole history in regard of their houses. Why this concern? This son is of value: why this sickness? It is the "mistress of the house", she is feeling it house-wise -- and recalling her sins -- she knew her history, she says, "mine iniquity". We all have to admit that these things have existed; and it is well to recall how

God has dealt with them in the death of Christ. Maybe the sickness of this child is the result of some governmental action of God, because of the parents, but that was not the point -- the point was that God is going to bring in life by the exercises of the prophet: the son is going to be brought into life in the upper room too, not down below in the bosom of the mother; she has to learn that the children have to get away from her influence. If I hold the children under my natural influence, they will never get into life, they have to be taken away from that and up to the chamber of the prophet -- "where he abode".

Rem. It is in accord with Acts 9:37, as regards the upper room.

J.T. Yes, Dorcas had been laid there and Peter putting out the natural element, having prayed said, "Tabitha, arise", and she opened her eyes and seeing Peter sat up.

W.A. How keenly the prophet had felt the breakdown of things at the end of the previous chapter! And Hiel was made to feel his conduct in building up Jericho -- the world; he laid its foundations in his first-born, and set up the gates in his youngest.

J.T. Yes, it was a terrible state in Israel. But what a different thing you have here; it is a son resuscitated into life in the household of faith. He took the child "up into the upper chamber where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed". You can see the complete change of circumstances with this boy, he is now taken out of his mother's bosom, and placed on the bed of the prophet -- the circumstances of God, you might say, in a world of evil.

P.L. Is it a little like Timothy taken by Paul from a pious home into the fresh circumstances connected with the testimony and spiritual power?

J.T. Yes. "And he cried to Jehovah, and said, Jehovah my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? And

he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again". It is very like Eutychus; it is a question of the young. It is not death and burial, but resuscitation. That is to say, life is promised in keeping the law; but this is bringing them back into it after having sickened and died, as you might say, in the natural, in such circumstances as are depicted here; now they are brought back into life, but in other circumstances, in circumstances in which the rights of God are recognised in this world. This would be the great end of all the discipline of God. As Hezekiah said, "by these things men live", Isaiah 38:16. It is a great thing to get souls into the moral elevation indicated here; it is where the prophet himself had lain, his own bed in the upper chamber. Is that too exalted a thought for the youngest child amongst us? The more we can get them into those circumstances, the more we are rewarded.

W.J.W. Did the rich woman in 2 Kings 4 recognise that? She went up and laid the child on the bed of the man of God.

J.T. Exactly, that illustrates how the truth was cumulative. No doubt she would know what preceded as seen here; every true christian coming into the truth goes back to what preceded him and profits by it.

Ques. Do we fail in not bringing our children who are sick morally into the presence of God?

J.T. And bringing them into the circumstances of God; God has come in here in lowly circumstances, but which are morally elevated, such as those in which the prophet had his own bed.

P.L. Would it be a little like John Mark's recovery -- "Take Mark ... for he is serviceable to me for ministry", 2 Timothy 4:11. Is he brought into the circumstances of the testimony?

J.T. Yes, he had left them, but he is brought back.

J.C. Is there not a little help in the fact that she acknowledges her iniquity?

J.T. I think there is a great deal in that. It is well to look back on your history, even if you are spiritual, and see what is involved. So you are always in the house of Simon the leper, the greatest things happen there.

H.B. Do we not often lose by thinking that the children will not understand what goes on at the meetings, whereas if they were brought they might come to the prophet's bed, and become familiar with what happens there?

J.T. Quite so, habituated to the circumstances of God: He has come in in the lowliest way. You may depend on it, it was not any great bedroom Elijah had.

Rem. I was thinking of Samuel; he is put by the ark.

J.T. Quite so, placed in the house. So the great end here is that Elijah is becoming known. "I know", she says, "that thou art a man of God, and that the word of Jehovah in thy mouth is truth". You can understand how that precedes what is said in the next chapter, that he is to show himself -- "Go, shew thyself to Ahab". He has been already discovered in the woman's house as one through whom life had come in.

P.L. Is the prophet's bed in contrast to Jezebel's bed? "I cast her into a bed", Revelation 2:22. It is a very degraded atmosphere, not an upper room, but a large bed, like Og's.

J.T. How terrible is the thought of Jezebel's bed!

P.H. Should the thought of abiding be more definite with us? God told Elijah to abide in Zarephath; there is a definite place in the house; the bed is in the chamber where, it says, he abode. Is it an increase in apprehension on the part of the woman to make these things more definite to the prophet?

J.T. Quite so. The education that runs through and the progress made in the woman, and in Elijah himself too, is very striking; so that God could say, "Go, shew thyself", as it were, 'I commit Myself to you'.

P.L. Having proved the power of life in relation to the immediate case on hand, he was fitted to face all the hosts of darkness in that power. Can we do anything in the power of God if we have not proved that power in our immediate surroundings such as in a test case like this child?

J.T. He had gone through the thing in the deep exercise of his soul -- he "cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?" -- he is not here speaking as a prophet, but as a believer feeling things. "And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again!" He is speaking, you might say, as a priest, praying to God. It is state that is in view, he himself is learning.

W.C.G. Would the third year represent an advance in the knowledge of the Spirit's power? The first year, the brook: the second year, the oil: and the third year, the quickening power of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so; the three and a half years have been filled out. Then the showing to Ahab, God has something that can be shown. "Seest thou this woman?" for instance; and He "having taken a little child set him by him": there is something now with which God can identify Himself, something to be seen in testimony. You ask yourself, 'What is there in me that God can call attention to as promoting the testimony? that He can commit Himself to?'

P.L. He is said to be hidden. Is he like the prophet Isaiah, made a polished shaft and hidden in his quiver? Now is he as an arrow in the hand of Jehovah?

J.T. Yes, it is all very beautiful; and, as applied to ourselves. God would bring us into a living state of things, for whilst Colossians is hiding -- "Your life is hid with Christ in God", yet it is life of the highest order, and that is the thing that is to be shown.

P.L. That would be the new man.

J.T. That is how it works out.

Ques. Verse 20 does not seem to be cleared up. Elijah gets no answer to it. Have we to take it as indicating right feelings?

J.T. Yes. It is the prophet, of course, but the prophet going through things himself, so that God can use him publicly. It says, "Jehovah heard the voice of Elijah, and the soul of the child came again into him again, and he lived". It is definite progression in the things of God. If you look abroad at the current conditions, what can you do unless God comes in? "And Elijah took the child, and brought him down from the upper chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother; and Elijah said, See, thy son lives". What a triumph that is! It is a living state of things in the house now.

F.I. It is very beautiful to see that Elijah is taking up these things in relation to Jehovah, and he does not say to the woman that the death of her son was the outcome of her iniquity.

J.T. No, he does not. It is a question of God's power, that God might be known in life-giving power in the household.

P.L. Does Paul urge the upper chamber on the Galatians by the introduction of sonship, saying, so to speak, 'See, Titus liveth'. I mean Paul has Titus with him as a product of his ministry. You spoke about a model produced, what an effect it has.

Rem. In regard to the prayer in verse 20, the prophet then has to go through the circumstances that came in -- he stretches himself three times on the child before he prays again and the power comes in for resuscitation.

J.T. Yes. It represents the power of Christ identifying Himself with us that we might live.

H.B. It says they ate "a whole year" -- would that correspond with the period during which Paul was at Antioch before he was commissioned for public service?

There must be the secret history, then assembly history, before there is qualification for public service.

J.T. Quite so, the whole assembly was being helped and Paul and Barnabas were being helped by all that proceeded, so they are the product of the assembly there, as it were.

THE RIGHTS AND PATIENCE OF GOD IN TESTIMONY (2)

1 Kings 18:1 - 46

J.T. Our subject this afternoon is public service. Elijah had spoken to Ahab, according to verse 1 of chapter 17, saying, "As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word". The position was thus made clear, it was one in which the word stood, an important principle in public ministry that the servant's word stands; as it is said of Samuel that none of his words fell to the ground, 1 Samuel 3:19. Jehovah saw to that, and the position being made clear, the servant has to go through certain experiences, so as to fit him for showing himself to Ahab; this time not merely to announce the mind of God, but to express it in power, so that we have "the word of Jehovah came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself to Ahab; and I will send rain upon the face of the earth". The commission of the servant is thus accompanied by the assurance that the blessing is coming.

H.B. Do you think that the public service, by his showing himself, has not only the word of the Lord through the servant in view, but that there is to be the personal representation of what is in the mind of God?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, that the person himself enters into the testimony. So Luke calls attention to the Lord as in the synagogue, how they wondered at the words of grace that were coming out of His mouth, and every eye was fastened on Him; attention is called to the Vessel of grace. As we see in the type, the light was to shine over against the candlestick -- meaning that the candlestick itself was to be in evidence. It says here, "Elijah went to shew himself to Ahab" -- that is the point. Then there are other movements which enhance this, the movements of Ahab and Obadiah; they

are occupied profitably with a view to positive good. That is to say, as the servant moves under divine direction, other conditions come into evidence ordered of God, which enhance the service. The enemy's power is checked in that Ahab at the moment is occupied in looking for grass, with Obadiah, the steward of his house; that is to say, we are to take account of every movement in Christendom, that has good as its end, as so far in our favour.

Ques. The position of hiding is now over when you speak of his showing himself to Ahab?

J.T. Quite so. We read in the New Testament of "the day of his showing to Israel", Luke 1:80. God indicates a suitable time when the servant is fit for it and the circumstances are ordered of God so as to make the service effective, so in serving God we are to have our eye abroad on the whole sphere of profession.

P.L. Is not the desire for food among the people of God the great opportunity for this kind of service?

J.T. I thought that, even although it is food of a very low order, it is still food. So that the circumstances are favourable, and it says that "Elijah went to shew himself", and then in verse 6, "Ahab went one way by himself, and Obadiah went another way by himself". It is well that they are separated for the purpose in view, so that it goes on to say, "as Obadiah was on the way, behold, Elijah met him". It was much more advantageous for the purpose in view that he should meet Obadiah first, Obadiah forming a link between Elijah and Ahab. There is thus a modification which is ordered of God between what is wholly of God and the opposite. God does not order sudden clashes, He brings in the principle of modification. "Obadiah was on the way", it says, which is an expression having its own meaning in Scripture, beginning with the servant of Abraham, who said, "I being in the way ..." Genesis 24:27. He was occupied under orders with a profitable end in view.

Rem. Your point is that the Lord would gather up

what is of Himself? The scripture records that "Obadiah feared Jehovah greatly", and although he was occupied here with this menial gathering of food, still he fed the Lord's prophets in a cave.

J.T. Yes, that is the thought. What is of God in the service, however insignificant it may appear, is to be taken account of as of God. Then the Spirit of God records what marked him; we are told, "now Obadiah feared Jehovah greatly; and it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of Jehovah, that Obadiah took a hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and maintained them with bread and water". The Holy Spirit tells us about it, to remind us that, if we are set to serve, He will put us in touch with the interested element, with what is of Himself, however small in measure.

Rem. And the servant in touch with the Lord will be quick to detect that. Elijah standing in the presence of the Lord suggests alertness.

J.T. That is what I had in mind, that we might see the setting of service today, that we are not to serve in a corner but in relation to the whole area of christendom, to take account of what is of God. Even an Ahab if he is moving with a good end in view is not to be despised.

P.L. You referred to Revelation this morning; would the encouragement of the overcomer even in the darkest stage be an incentive to take account of what the Lord has everywhere?

J.T. I thought that. That is his first concern, to write to the assemblies; the whole area of christendom is in mind, so that we take account of what is good: the Lord does that in each address.

Ques. Do you regard christendom as an area for the operations of God's work?

J.T. Well, it is different from heathendom; we do not encounter demon power in christendom -- there is a certain advantage. The testimony really now is to those who are professedly christian, so there is no need

of miracles and the like. Ahab and Obadiah are in movement before Elijah shows himself. He does not show himself to Ahab first, but to Obadiah, and it was when Obadiah was in the way.

P.L. Would this principle be found with the eunuch? Philip is hidden in the desert and then he is called to show himself to an element that is enquiring, and, in principle, in the way.

J.T. I think that is right. The eunuch was reading the Scriptures, and Philip was enjoined by the Spirit to join himself to the chariot, which is really more than what you get here. Elijah would not join himself to Obadiah in what he was doing, but he was doing something; he was working under the orders of Ahab, and Elijah says "thy lord", referring to Ahab. Ahab was not Elijah's lord in that sense. The Holy Spirit tells us about Obadiah, he was a remarkable man; God will love to bring into evidence the fruit of His own work, even though it was in a false setting. A man who hid fifty prophets in a cave from Jezebel's wrath is not one to be despised.

Ques. You would say that Obadiah was a good man, but hampered by the fear of men.

J.T. Just so. Whatever was good with him God would bring into evidence. Obadiah, I think, in what he says, in his anxieties, represents that weakness of faith that marks those who are the subjects of the work of God in these circumstances, that is, it is the work of God in a set of circumstances that is inimical to it, but still it is the work of God, and God loves to bring out His own work.

P.L. So that separating "the precious from the vile, thou shalt be as my mouth" (Jeremiah 15:19), is seen with Elijah here.

J.T. I think so.

Ques. What would be involved in "Shew thyself", at the present time, referring to christendom?

J.T. It is a question of what is of God. There is

that in us of which God is not ashamed, and, especially in His service, there is that to which He commits Himself. I think it is seen in chapter 17; a man who can bring a boy back from the dead, with all the exercises that are depicted, is, you might say, full of Christ -- that is what is to be shown.

Ques. Would you say that Obadiah was not positionally righteous, for "the righteous is as bold as a lion"?

J.T. Yes. He was in circumstances that weakened his faith. We all know what it is, as we come in contact with persons in whom the work of God is, but who are in circumstances that are foreign to it, how weak their faith is, and how uncertain such people are. You are conscious you have darkness to deal with in their settings. To get them out of those settings is very largely the work God would commit to those who have the light. You will observe how uncertain Obadiah is, how he feared Ahab, who represents the ruling religious class, whoever it may be -- how people fear it!

Rem. Obadiah's name means, Servant of the Lord. Do you think the Lord has His servants even in positions that we might not regard very favourably?

J.T. That is the point we are at. He is really in circumstances that are wholly inimical to his progress as a believer, and people in such circumstances have to be delivered. How are you to deliver a man like this? He was true to his convictions; there is assembly material in this man, he will divide the saints up into a number that can be handled profitably, hiding them fifty in a cave: he is in keeping with the character of the day, the time of hiding. Large meetings are contrary to that; the principle is this -- fifty in a cave. He is conversant with the movements of Elijah.

Rem. This man had an assembly principle which some of us in Belfast need -- fifty in a cave.

J.T. That is right. That is a principle many have not accepted, and he is in keeping, to that extent, with the idea of hiding -- smallness.

Ques. Would that indicate the number that it would be suitable to feed?

J.T. Quite so. It is carried out in the Lord's own case -- "Make them sit down in companies by fifties". This is a company that can come under an administrative hand. You may speak to any number, but when it comes to the administrative side, you need to have a manageable company. Fifty are easily managed -- we know each other.

P.L. One of Elijah's last acts was to save a company of fifty, 2 Kings 1 -- The captain of the fifty "fell on his knees".

J.T. Yes, due to the state of the captain, that is, the leading brother. It shows how the saints may be saved by the leading brother being in the right spirit. He died for the company, you might say; that is, he surrendered his dignity as a captain and saved his fifty. This choice of a cave belongs to faith -- the "dens and caverns of the earth" are not man-built, they are God's doing. They are formations and have their own voice, something God has prepared in His creation that faith employs. God provides in nature things that faith appropriates. The more you think on that line, the more you will see how the creatorial thought enters into redemption, for what God is in creation He is in redemption, only redemption is the intensification of it.

P.L. Would you say that redemption and creation are brought together in chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation as following on this?

J.T. That is very good: chapter 4 is creation and chapter 5 redemption. It is to bring out an important testimony which God would centre in suitable vessels, in order to bring out all that is good in the realm of profession. We have to view ourselves in relation to creation. The celebration of praise in chapter 4 is in connection with creation -- "for thy will they were and they have been created"; then chapter 5 is redemption.

Rem. "They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins

... and in dens and caverns of the earth", Hebrews 11:37 - 38. That was a period of faith.

Ques. Why does God regard Ahab at all?

J.T. To bring out that He recognised the responsible element in the profession: He never loses sight of that. So, "thou permittest the woman Jezebel ..." is said to the responsible element -- the angel of the assembly. God recognises that to bring out how patient He is, but never failing to judge the wickedness that is there. The intelligent Christian understands that the Romish system as represented in Jezebel is definitely set aside. The remnant is called out, and that is the moral setting aside of that system. "I cast her into a bed ... her children will I kill with death". She is definitely dealt with judicially. In the latter part of the Revelation, Babylon is fallen, and has become the cage of every foul and hateful bird. Morally it has been dealt with.

Rem. As we move, as Elijah did, to show ourselves in a right way, the sympathetic element will come to light.

J.T. That is what comes about, and we know it has been so in the history of the revival. As God raised up His servants, He also worked and brought in a sympathetic element, at least, an element He worked with, like Obadiah.

Rem. I wondered whether this would work out in our localities, whether we could not count on something sympathetic coming to light under God's hand.

J.T. I think that is what marks the work of God that He brings to light what He has been doing in others, so that the prayer was, "Let thy work appear unto thy servants". We have the record of the movements of Ahab and Obadiah; then that Obadiah was in the way when Elijah met him. He did not meet Elijah, Elijah met him; as the Lord says in the gospels, "A man shall meet you carrying a pitcher of water", Mark 14:13. We must recognise that God works, and even Elijah would have to recognise that God worked without him,

but then He would bring His work into the view of Elijah, and that is what we see in the chapter. "Let thy work appear unto thy servants ... And let the beauty of Jehovah our God be upon us; and establish thou the work of our hands upon us, yea, the work of our hands, establish thou it", Psalm 90.

Ques. What does Elijah recognise in Ahab?

J.T. The great general thought of the responsible element. The pope is responsible, the hierarchy of Rome is responsible. So is that of protestantism, and God will recognise any element of good there may be in any one of them. It is a great thing to recognise what there is, what God is doing.

P.L. Obadiah was one of the seven thousand who had not bowed to Baal.

J.T. Exactly; Elijah missed that, Obadiah should have reminded him.

Rem. "The firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his", 2 Timothy 2:19.

Rem. In speaking even to a Romish priest, we have to remember that there is an element of responsibility to be recognised there.

J.T. A great dignitary of the Roman Catholic church, set over against an apostate movement in Germany, recently said, 'There is no blood of any importance but the blood of Jesus' -- a man who says that is not to be despised.

Ques. Do you mean such persons belong to the assembly?

J.T. Not exactly: a man might say that and not be a Christian; those who belong to the assembly must have the Spirit.

Rem. Ahab said a good thing a little later on.

J.T. Yes. It is to enlarge our view as to what God is doing. We come to see that God has one thing in His mind, and that is the little cake that Elijah spoke of,

and we see here the twelve tribes of Israel -- that is what He is thinking of.

Ques. Do you not think we need this collective aspect in view of our attitude towards those who do not walk with us?

J.T. I think we do, but we should have in mind that we are to hate "the garment spotted by the flesh", and with fear to pull "out of the fire" some who are believers, Jude 23.

Rem. While we stand aside from all the systems, through mercy, we would appreciate anything that belongs to the Lord wherever it is.

J.T. That is it, to get the gold. Gold is alluded to in Genesis 2, and it runs right through. Gold is gold wherever it is, but it is not useful if it is in the mines, it has to be separated from its surroundings.

Ques. Ought we not all to be concerned that the written ministry should be circulated as widely as possible amongst believers, in the systems?

J.T. Well, it is for them: it is for the poor of the flock, it is for all.

Ques. Does Obadiah, as subject to the word of the Lord, now become the link with Ahab?

J.T. That is how it is introduced. He establishes a link with Ahab, modifying the distance, as it were, so as to prevent a breach. Had Elijah come into direct contact with Ahab at the beginning, there might have been a definite breach and what we have here would not have resulted. But there is a modification, so it says, "Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him"; "And Ahab went to meet Elijah". Now that is a great matter: you have Ahab going to meet Elijah, that is a great advantage.

Ques. I wondered whether it came about through the exercises of subjection on the part of Obadiah to the word of Elijah.

J.T. I think Elijah showed him that he could rely on what he was saying, and he secured a movement in

Ahab -- Ahab went to meet Elijah. It is something if you get any of these great men in the systems coming to meet one who has the word of God. They do not want to hear you much now, but if one comes to meet you, that is something. Ahab comes to meet him; he has a hard word for him, but it is remarkable that Ahab does what Elijah tells him to do. Ahab calls him a troubler of Israel first, and Elijah says, "I have not troubled Israel, but thou and thy father's house, in that ye have forsaken the commandments of Jehovah, and thou hast followed the Baals. And now send, gather to me all Israel to mount Carmel". That is, Elijah has selected the meeting place, it is not to be in a cathedral: it is not on Ahab's terms.

P.L. Or in the plain of Ono (Nehemiah 6:2).

J.T. No, mount Carmel has its own meaning: it means fruitfulness, and it certainly was fruitful at this time. The meeting place is dictated by Elijah. He slays the prophets at the brook Kishon, not at Carmel.

P.L. Would the fact that the prophet knows exactly how many false prophets there are suggest that he had measured out all that sorrow with God? He is not indifferent to what is transpiring, as we might say, in christendom today.

J.T. What a company he had to meet, but he did not under-estimate it.

Ques. Would you say that the wisdom of Elijah's movement resulted in the testimony gaining a place with Ahab?

J.T. That is how it stands; Ahab came under his direction. We may act in such a narrow legal way as to preclude any thought of getting influence over others. It is very striking that Ahab comes under the direction of Elijah and does exactly what he wishes him to do. It was no small undertaking to gather them all there. Chapter 16 tells us that Ahab is the wickedest man; added to that he has taken Jezebel: yet God deals with him in this way, so that our hearts should be impressed

with the grace and the patience of God in dealing with christendom.

Rem. Jezebel was the great supporter of the false prophets and the destroyer of the prophets of the Lord. Is not God today protecting what is of Himself amongst us, and promoting what is spiritual, in spite of Jezebel?

J.T. That is what comes out here. It says, "Ahab sent to all the children of Israel, and gathered the prophets together unto mount Carmel". That is a remarkable moral triumph; no one else could have done it. They would not have come at Elijah's bidding. So that God can use a man or an element like this.

P.L. This warrior of God has the great advantage of. So to speak, choosing his own battlefield, and he takes the initiative all the time till victory is assured. The priests of Baal would be on very foreign territory at mount Carmel.

J.T. They would; they would have been at a disadvantage at once. Now the point is, what will the people do? What effect will it have on the people? If you cannot get the people, the end is not reached. So it says, "Then Elijah drew near to all the people, and said, How long do ye halt between two opinions? if Jehovah be God, follow him; and if Baal, follow him. And the people answered him not a word". Well, he is left to divine what they think, they are not saying anything; but the hand of God is, as it were, passed over them and they are not opposed; it portends good that they say nothing. Then it says, when Elijah makes his proposal as to the two bullocks, that one was to be offered by the prophets of Baal and one by himself, that "all the people answered and said, The word is good". If we get the people to say that, we have got something. You have to reach the people, to speak to the people, and that is what he does here. He had been speaking to Ahab and to Obadiah; now he speaks to the people for God: he has them in his mind.

Rem. He does not wait till the people come to him,

he drew near to them: he had an evangelical heart.

J.T. Quite. Then the next thing is the great power that he had so as to become ironical: he is like Jehovah sitting in the heavens laughing at them. It is the power God gives His servants as they proceed on this line, they can mock the enemy -- "The virgin-daughter of Zion despiseth thee, laugheth thee to scorn", that is, the Assyrian, Isaiah 37:22.

Rem. That was the effect of choosing his ground and his means of testimony. If they had chosen themselves they would have chosen something that would have given them the advantage.

J.T. Yes, they would. In moving towards our brethren who are in the systems, we are not true if we allow them to take up things on their terms; they must be on God's terms.

P.L. Does the bullock suggest that the prophet takes account of the greatness of the Person?

J.T. That is what comes out. He even proposes bullocks -- large offerings.

Ques. Would the light in Elijah's soul be shown in the fact that he refers to Jehovah of hosts? Would that help us in the gospel?

J.T. I am sure it would -- the greatness of God. I believe the Lord has been helping the brethren in calling attention to the Deity, what He is in the absolute, and what He is creationally, and what He is in redemption. The great background is what He is in absoluteness. The greater place the Lord has in your soul, the more power you will have with men. Many christians have a very poor estimate of God, and a very poor estimate of Christ. Elijah is impressed here with the greatness of God. The offering of the bullocks and all that ensued would be to detach the people from Ahab and Jezebel, it is the greatness of God brought in. So the result in verse 39 is, "all the people saw it, and they fell on their faces and said, Jehovah, he is God! Jehovah, he is God!" That is, God is in their souls now, but He

was in Elijah's soul first: it is the minister that conveys this, so that the people get it.

P.L. "The Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me", Galatians 2:20. Is that the thought of the bullock -- the glory of the Person, all to detach the Galatians from those who troubled them, whom Paul wished would cut themselves off like the priests of Baal?

J.T. Just so.

Rem. We see the possibilities that are with God.

J.T. That is what comes out. So Elijah now allows the prophets of Baal to do their utmost, and what an exposure! All day long, there they are in their wretched efforts to bring in power; and no power, no answer, comes. What an exposure! Then in verse 30, "Elijah said to all the people, Draw near to me": he had drawn near to them, now he says, "Draw near to me". You are impressed with the manner of the truth as it is stated here -- "Draw near to me", that has a gathering power.

Rem. I suppose spiritual power in ministry lies in access to God. In the ministry of the prophets of Baal there was no access to God or spiritual power: we see the contrary in Elijah.

J.T. Yes, that is the way it stands. The jugglery of these men, their deceptiveness, is all set aside: they are exposed in the withering irony of Elijah. It is God's way to wither up opposition by irony, and now he says, "Draw near to me". That is, the enemy is already defeated in this exposure, but the power of God has not come in yet. We are now coming on to what God can do in the way of power.

P.L. So that the Lord exposes all the cities of the plain, coming under apostate influences as they have done, and then He says, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened".

J.T. Quite so. It is very beautiful -- "Draw near to me", here, and Jesus says, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened". Elijah is typical of the Lord here; he is someone to come to, he is gradually gaining

power, and it says, "he repaired the altar of Jehovah which was broken down". He is now approaching the idea of worship; worship is to be on God's terms and it is His own altar; broken down though it be, it is the altar of God, it is not a new one, there is only one, and God will accept it. And it says, "Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of Jehovah came saying, Israel shall be thy name". We were speaking of the cumulativeness of the testimony; we are on spiritual ground now, the Israel of God: a great thought in a dark day like ours -- "the Israel of God", the tribes coming into evidence, meaning the saints viewed as formed in love, the work of the hand of God. You can see how we are getting on to moral elevation here. The corrupt system is withered away by the irony of God, there is nothing of it in the presence of all this. We ought to see the magnitude of the position -- the twelve tribes, the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of God came -- "Israel shall be thy name". It is the Israel of God; it is not the natural, it is of God.

P.L. "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise". All the wisdom of man is ridiculed and brought to nothing. It is at the time of the evening sacrifice: would you say a little as to that?

J.T. It was an advantageous time. If anything could be done for the prophets of Baal it would be done then. The time of the evening sacrifice means that you are as powerful in the evening as you are in the morning.

P.L. "Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense, the lifting up of my hands as the evening oblation", Psalm 141:2 -- it is Christ really.

J.T. Quite. It is the idea of continuance in your soul. What God especially values is that a man is as powerful in the evening as in the morning; the heat of the day has not damaged him.

Ques. What about the twelve stones here? Is the

altar to be permanent now? Does that show he was on the ground of counsel and faith?

J.T. Yes, I think God is showing us the end now. The number twelve is never seen more concretely than in the heavenly city; that is the view now, involving love. Twelve allows for the manipulation of love -- love can understand.

Rem. "The Lord knows those that are his" -- does that cover the twelve?

J.T. Well, the twelve goes beyond that, it is the great thought of counsel; it is the saints viewed as one whole answering to the mind of God, not simply every saint. We come down now to Elijah's direction as to the altar. He is not wishing to make his position easy. The altar is built, and he puts the wood in order, cuts the bullock in pieces, and he says, "Fill four pitchers with water", so that now we are in the presence of the power of death: it is not minimised, but Christ is in it -- the bullock is there. That is, it is the great fact of the power of God, testified to, operating in Christ. Everything is consumed, licked up, although the trench is dug according to measure and filled, yet the power of God is equal to all that; taking Christ out of death, the "surpassing greatness of his power". The people arrive at the great truth -- "Jehovah, he is God". Israel's covenant God is the only God, there is no other -- that is the meaning of it. He is God, God is one.

Rem. You have twelve suggested again in the four pitchers filled three times.

J.T. Yes, it goes beyond. The power of death is seen in its fulness -- not three but four -- four goes beyond full testimony. As it says of Lazarus, he was four days dead.

Rem. In the light of Ephesians 1 it is possible to conceive of saints being for God's pleasure, the power for it is set forth in Christ.

J.T. Well, that is the setting of it, the chapter brings us on to that ground. We have the whole truth in that

chapter: we reach here the ground of Ephesians 1 typically in regard of power, the exceeding greatness of God's power, God known in that way. It is an Ephesian saint who can bear testimony properly, "The power which works in us", what a fine point that is to reach, and that is seen here in that Elijah would have the trench full, "Fill four pitchers with water, and pour it on the burnt-offering and on the wood" -- "Do it the second time" -- "Do it the third time". Four pitchers every time!

P.L. You referred to Ephesians; "even as the Christ loved us, and delivered himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour" (chapter 5: 2). Is that the time of the evening sacrifice? You move in the savour of that now.

J.T. Exactly. The priests of Baal had that advantage; it was the time of the offering of the evening oblation. It says, "The water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water. And it came to pass at the time of the offering up of the oblation, that Elijah the prophet drew near and said, Jehovah, God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel ... . And the fire of Jehovah fell, and consumed the burnt-offering, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench". It is a remarkable type of the power of God taking Christ out of death.

P.L. This answer to the fervent prayer of Elijah is a little like the bowed knees of Paul.

J.T. Quite so. It really enters into Christ's agony in the garden: He is heard from the horns of the unicorns.

Ques. What is the thought of a torrent?

J.T. Water coming to you of itself, is what we have in the torrent Cherith. Here we have a different idea in the torrent. Kishon is a river or torrent in a place of great combats; it is where Sisera was destroyed in the days of the Judges and Deborah -- the ancient river of Kishon (see Judges 4:7, 13; Judges 5:21; and Psalm 83:9).

It refers to the judgment of God; yet it dries up entirely sometimes, as the judgment of God works out, but it comes back in power, and carries away the enemy. The suggestion here that the prophets were taken down to that torrent and slain is the overwhelming judgment of God.

Finally Ahab is spoken to kindly, for there is going to be rain. What a word it is to the sinner! How the grace of God rises above the sins of men: even an Ahab is told there is a sound of rain; the word indeed is, "there is a sound of abundance of rain", "And Elijah said to Ahab, Go up, eat and drink". It seems to me there is remarkable grace in that, this is the present moment, this dispensation and it is not changed. Evil will not be passed over, but the responsible element is dealt with in grace -- "Go up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain". But then how is it to come? Ahab does not agonise over it; Elijah does, he puts his face between his knees on mount Carmel. Carmel is the place.

Rem. It shows what faith he had, he hears the sound of abundance of rain before he prays.

J.T. He does not forget to pray; we must pray. He told his servant to "look toward the sea": the sea refers to divine resources which are unlimited; the servant says, "There is nothing". "And he said, Go again seven times. And it came to pass at the seventh time that he said, Behold, there is a cloud, small as a man's hand, arising out of the sea. And he said, Go up, say to Ahab, Harness and go down, that the pour of rain stop thee not. And it came to pass in the meanwhile, that the heavens became black with clouds and wind, and there was a great pour of rain". That is the end of it; that is the end of the two prayers of Elijah. In between there is all this evidence of the power of God operating for us.

Rem. A little like Paul speaking of the unsearchable riches of the Christ.

J.T. I think it is. It is a full thought, plenty of it, abundance of it -- the riches of His grace.

Ques. Does not this show the importance of our persevering in prayer until God comes in in this way, and watching in the same with thanksgiving? His head was between his knees.

J.T. Putting the head between our knees would save us from intellectualism in our ministry. A very good place to put your head if in need of power.

Ques. What about the little cloud? You spoke this morning of the little cake.

J.T. It is the beginning of the thing. The thought of sympathy is suggested in "a man's hand", what began so small yet becomes enlarged.

P.L. Does running before suggest that the servant does not rest on his oars in relation to past success, but buckles on his armour for the next spiritual exploit? "He girded up his loins and ran".

J.T. He outran Ahab: the servant of God has more agility than all the great men of christendom. Obadiah understood that Elijah's movements were spiritual, it is to his credit that he understood that (see 1 Kings 18:12).

THE RIGHTS AND PATIENCE OF GOD IN TESTIMONY (3)

1 Kings 19:1 - 21; 1 Kings 20:13 - 21

J.T. It seems as if it is required that we should pay special attention to the vessel in whom God intervened in a positive way, so that the Spirit brings us back to the history of Elijah, personally, in this chapter, though alas! to record his failure. This is a feature of the subject that enters into our own times; for God graciously brought about a state of things through which He intervened in christendom in great power, bringing about the exposure of all its features and ramifications. But there was failure, as in the case of Elijah, yet not irretrievable failure, for, through grace, the testimony still goes on in conditions more or less suitable to God: and, as we see in Elijah, we may look for a triumph at the end, for he is received up into heaven. The culmination of the present activities of the Spirit in the saints will be their catching up into heaven. Elijah's history furnishes light as to this, and encouragement; but it also rebukes us, and that is seemly, so that saints should feel the terrible failure that has come in in that which God raised up, and through which He spoke and acted towards the whole of christendom. As we have part in the revival that continues, through grace, we have also our part in the failure; and, if there is to be any culmination according to God of the present service, we must be cast upon God and His faithfulness and patience with us. He has to bear with us every day, He suffers our manners, but He goes on with us. So this chapter begins with Ahab's disloyalty as to what had come about -- he told things to Jezebel; and her true character comes out for she "sent a messenger to Elijah saying, So do the gods to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time!" She makes no allusion to Ahab, it is what she

will do: showing in the system that is symbolised by her, the persistence of open opposition now, to that which God owns and uses; for Elijah is signalised, according to the previous chapter, as God's servant. There had been the acknowledgment that Jehovah was God, and Elijah was His servant, so that her sin is all the more glaring and bold, in that it is directed now against the vessel as owned of God.

H.B. Do you speak of Ahab as the outward responsible element in the profession, and of Jezebel as being the spirit of opposition and idolatry that finds its place and is permitted there?

J.T. That is right. Ahab represents the responsible element, including all that are in the place of responsibility, whether the Roman hierarchy or any other of the elements of responsibility. Ahab represents all these; and Jezebel is the subjective state that prevails, especially in Rome, for the New Testament leaves us in no doubt as to what she sets forth, for there are children of Jezebel, and later, daughters of Babylon.

H.C.L. What is before us would carry us back to the Reformation.

J.T. Yes, but Jezebel continues on. The Reformation is more especially typified in Jehu's service of destruction -- that is, morally -- for it is not yet literally. It is said in Revelation 18:8 that "strong is the Lord God who has judged her", showing it is beyond man's power to deal with her finally, but she is dealt with morally. The Reformation was the testimony to the power of God in overthrowing her system in a moral sense, so that men were able to escape from it, to come out of it. Here, Ahab and Elijah are still alive, but she is continuing on in her brazen opposition to what God owns. She had slain the prophets before and cut them off; but here is a prophet God has signally owned and she would kill him, so there is no veil now as to her motives, she is opposed to God.

H.C.L. There were the exercises of spiritual men

before the Reformation: there were glimmerings of light.

J.T. Yes, there was always something. The addresses to the assemblies in Revelation 2 and 3 really form the history of the assembly. What we have as histories of the assembly are most useful, but the authentic history of the assembly spiritually is in those two chapters. We find in the addresses that there is something in each one of the assemblies which God can own to some extent.

W.C.G. Does verse 3 indicate decline of faith? Previously Elijah had stood before God, now he flees before a woman.

J.T. Yes, his faith is failing. "When he saw that, he arose and went for his life", he is concerned about himself. The Lord did not go for His life; He laid down His life.

P.L. The day after the conflict and victory becomes the most testing day for us? Is the Lord, in the first day of His resurrection and the forty days after, the great model for us as to how to act consequent on victory, and how to gather the fruit of the spoil?

J.T. Exactly. Elijah had some agility; according to the end of the previous chapter he outran Ahab and went to Jizreel. There would be no lack of energy, he could easily have got out of the way of Jezebel. What you find with the Lord is that, when an attack was made, He got out of the way till His hour was come. No enemy can interfere with a servant of the Lord till his hour is come. There was a power operating in Elijah which Obadiah understood: it was proved in the rapidity with which he went to Jizreel; but here he fled for his life, and I do not believe he went nearly as quickly as he did when he went from Carmel to Jizreel; he went in his own strength now.

W.H. Is there a voice to us in connection with Ahab that, as cherishing what the Lord has given us, we should be very careful and wise to whom we speak

of it, and when, so that neither the testimony nor the saints are unnecessarily attacked?

J.T. I think that is right. Ahab was treacherous in this, he knew well enough what Jezebel would think of it. It is like the case of the man in John 5 who told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well, and the Jews persecuted Jesus because of it. So that we have to be on our guard not to disclose things to persons who will make bad use of them, we must not cast our pearls before swine; but Ahab had none of these holy qualities. This chapter brings out that though he was not so virulent in his opposition as Jezebel, he was nevertheless collaborating with her. One of the features of our readings is to consider the patience of God, but in due course no wicked person can escape the just judgment of God: what seems to be a bow at a venture will bring him down, it was thus Ahab's sin found him out. So there is no hope of escape for christendom, everything will come under the just judgment of God; but meanwhile in the exercise of His patience, God selects the wickedest man to display what His patience is, not because he is a wicked man, but as a wicked man in office, in the place of responsibility he affords the opportunity for the display of God's patience.

J.C. Do you think that the elements represented in Ahab and Jezebel, might be found inside?

J.T. Well, it is the flesh, and you and I are as capable of these things as Ahab. If our own hearts are not searched, these meetings are not of much value. As the Lord said, "One of you ... shall deliver me up"; the greatest sin of all is put in that way; I am capable of betraying the Lord.

Ques. Would it be right to say that Ahab represents protestantism and Jezebel Rome, making a covenant one with another to slay the prophets?

J.T. Ahab is more than protestantism, he gives the general thought of responsibility in christendom, including even the Greek church. There is responsibility

attaching to each, and God owns them in so far as they are prepared to do anything for Him, but not, in any sense, passing over their sin -- "by no means clearing the guilty". There is a sphere that belongs to God and He is operating in it; it is well to see that. Ahab represents the responsible element generally. It is one of the features of the policy of Rome to wax bolder and bolder; the more her wickedness is exposed, the bolder she becomes. So, after the Reformation, there was the Council of Trent, in which she asserted her wickedness with greater effrontery than ever. Then, in our own times, after the revival and the assertion by the Spirit of the headship of Christ and the truth of the assembly, Rome asserted the infallibility of the pope. That is her policy, to become bolder in wickedness: she has got out of hand, but "strong is the Lord God who has judged her". You see her boldness here: she would fix the hour for what she would do to Elijah.

Ques. Do you regard Elijah as suggesting the revival a hundred years ago?

J.T. That is the idea. We are sharing in the benefits of it, but we cannot evade the responsibility for its failure.

Ques. Would Jerusalem in Matthew's gospel set forth God's centre, and the patience of God be seen in Luke's gospel in relation to it?

J.T. Luke brings out the patience of God in regard to that city; Matthew takes the opposite view, he generally casts a slight on Jerusalem, for he is making room for the assembly. In Luke, Jerusalem is still the centre on earth.

H.B. The patience of God, as seen towards Ahab in his official capacity, is very different from God's gracious care of the prophet when he fled.

J.T. Yes. It is well to keep our eye on the prophet, for it is a question how we are to behave ourselves as having part in this very thing. It says, "he arose, and went for his life, and came to Beer-sheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there". Why should it

be mentioned that it belongs to Judah? Judah, and Beer-sheba itself, ought to have reminded him of the faithfulness of God, and that God would not forsake him, that his life was God's property and that precious life would be defended as a treasure by Jehovah. Then, in going south, he passed territory which ought to have spoken to him every moment of what God is -- Jerusalem, Hebron and Bethlehem -- all these landmarks of divine faithfulness and power; and he went to the extremities of the land, to Beer-sheba, which in itself is the city of the oath, where God entered into covenant with Jacob (Genesis 46:14).

Rem. Paul says they "were excessively pressed beyond ... power, so as to despair even of living. But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God", 2 Corinthians 1.

J.T. That is a very suitable scripture to bring in here. We can reckon that God will come in at the extremity. We find in the history of Jehoshaphat, according to the record in Chronicles, that as the enemy was about to kill him, Jehovah diverted them at the last moment (2 Chronicles 18:31). The lives of the servants of God, are specially precious in His sight.

Rem. In Acts 9 Paul was threatened with his life and he gave himself into the hands of the disciples. Instead of fleeing from the danger, he was let down from the wall in a basket, and he went to Jerusalem, to the very seat of the danger, thus expressing his confidence in God.

J.T. Just so, and at Lystra, when surrounded by the brethren, he rose up and went back to the city, showing the courage he had.

W.H.M. What led to this sudden and great failure? Was it spiritual pride on the part of the prophet?

J.T. You just question your own heart. You have a successful preaching, for instance, or a sense of the support of God in your ministry, and how often the

flesh rises and takes credit for it! You lose faith. The need is to go to Gilgal, so to speak.

W.H.M. God answered by fire previously; in this chapter God told him He had others.

J.T. That is what comes out to prevent undue exclusivism amongst us. As the apostle Paul says so forcefully, "what says the divine answer to him?" The divine answer -- "I have left to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed knee to Baal" (Romans 11:4), so that we have to bear that in mind all through these chapters.

Ques. By exclusivism, do you mean we may get the idea that God is working only through us and so we may despise others?

J.T. That is what I thought. Exclusivism is right of course, up to a point, "hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" -- but then we should be loving the brethren, in whatever circumstances they may be. Let us not be afraid of the word 'hate'; that may be called exclusivism, it is exclusivism, and more, it is a judgment: hating a thing is a judgment on it, and God says, He has "judged your judgment upon her" in Revelation 18:20. So we have to gather up the thoughts of God as to things right down to the smallest independent company in christendom, it is that we have to judge.

W.C.G. Has not Elijah moved away from the first position of faith, when he said, "Jehovah, ... before whom I stand"?

J.T. Yes, he is thinking of himself. That is very humbling, how it arises with one -- concern for oneself.

P.L. So he ought to have left himself at Gilgal, instead of leaving his servant at Beer-sheba. Does not God answer that by showing He will not leave His servant, and does He not give him a servant too, in Elisha, who later will not leave him? (2 Kings 2).

J.T. Yes. That is very beautiful. He "went for his life and came to Beer-sheba ... and left his servant

there" -- the servant is in the same circumstances now, he is in Beer-sheba. "And he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a certain broom-bush, and requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough". Well, he might as well have died in harness; you had better die gloriously in the conflict, than die in the wilderness alone under the hand of the Lord!

P.L. "Blessed the dead who die in the Lord".

Rem. Nehemiah says, "Should such a man as I flee?" Nehemiah 6:11.

J.T. Quite so. The brethren often bring up such things as they did in Nehemiah's day -- See what is going to happen! -- but we must stand our ground; that is the simplest and safest thing to do. Why should God slay His servant? He "requested for himself that he might die": his mind is running in a very poor channel.

P.L. Can you resign the commission the Lord has given you?

J.T. That is what he did; he resigned his commission. There is no speed now, like on the journey from Carmel to Jizreel! It is a toilsome journey -- "a day's journey into the wilderness" -- this is poor work! And the Lord would teach us by these things; if we are selfish and cowardly, this is the sort of thing we may expect. Elijah's undertaking was very great physically, and what comes out is what God is to a failing servant, and we ought all to understand that. What marks our position, the failure that attaches to it, cannot be forgotten, but what God is to what has failed, is the lesson of the chapter; what God is to us. So he said, "It is enough: now, Jehovah, take my life; for I am not better than my fathers". He wants Jehovah to do what he would not let Jezebel do. There certainly would be no honour in Jehovah taking his life, nor would there be any honour to God in it; it is the mixed feelings you find in people who are in the pathway of unbelief.

Ques. What would Judah speak to us of?

J.T. Well, we know the place Judah had with God, for the history of David and Solomon lay behind it; he was perfectly conversant with all that. When you are dealing with souls in unbelief, you feel you are dealing with darkness; the most positive witnesses on the part of God are there, and yet they do not affect such persons. The Lord wept over Jerusalem -- He felt things. All this seemed to have been absent from Elijah; it is just unbelief, the most powerful witnesses are unavailing.

A.W.R. "In Judah is God known" -- does that come in here?

J.T. Quite so, all that would be known to him, the place Judah had in the testimony. "The Sceptre will not depart from Judah, Nor the lawgiver from between his feet, Until Shiloh come", Genesis 49:10. He would know all that. But then, with people who have turned aside from the path, you may bring to their attention the most powerful evidences of what God is, and it all seems unavailing. Beer-sheba had a wonderful history, it goes back further than Jerusalem, to what God had been to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob there. Later on, Elijah comes back to the idea of spiritual geography before he is received up into heaven, that is to say, he went with Elisha from Gilgal to Bethel, and Jericho, and the Jordan; but here he has lost all thought of it. It shows how it is possible with the most spiritual of us to drop suddenly into the realm of darkness and unbelief.

W.J.R.B. Do you see the same principle in Mark 16? The disciples disbelieved the news Mary brought.

J.T. That is the idea. Mark stresses the unbelief of the greatest servants, that is, the apostles. Why should they disbelieve a woman like Mary Magdalene? But what she and the others said was "as an idle tale" to them (Luke 24:11).

Ques. Had Elijah forgotten the bush in Exodus 3?

J.T. Quite so, unbelief forgets everything in this

sense! As a matter of fact, even though one rise from the dead, the state of unbelief will not be affected: God has to come in afresh; there has to be another conversion. Most people need several conversions, and that involves a fresh work of God, in the believer.

J.P.H. Will you say a little more about Elijah leaving his servant there?

J.T. Well, it was to the advantage of the servant, I think. There was something there in the place which spoke of the faithfulness of God, and that is what the apostle brings out in 1 Corinthians -- "God is faithful. …" In 2 Corinthians he shows that that same faithfulness is in Christ -- "For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen".

Ques. Would Chloe be somewhat like the servant left in the faithfulness of God?

J.T. Exactly. She is there and the house of Stephanas: there is always someone there, however obscure.

Rem. The apostle strengthened Timothy by saying -- "be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus", and "take thy share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ".

J.T. Quite so. Things in Christ Jesus are fixed. The great point in 2 Timothy is what is "in Christ Jesus". It says of Elijah that "he lay down and slept under the broom-bush. And behold, an angel touched him", (chapter 19: 5). There is not simply something objective now, the bringing up of promises would not help him; he could tell you more than anybody; it is a divine touch people need. You feel that in dealing with unbelief you are powerless, God only can affect a man in unbelief.

P.L. Was the food put at his head, because his thoughts were wrong?

J.T. God has not given up His thoughts: the cake was at his head, as we see, and set forth the truth of the assembly. As the great failure came in, Bethesda

made a travesty of the truth of the assembly, brought it down to the human level and lost it; but then God has not lost it: and if there is one man or woman who holds the truth of the "cake", -- the one body -- that is the truth of the assembly, all is there. Somebody holds the thing, if it is only one or two.

Rem. I have looked upon the cake as Christ; you make it the assembly?

J.T. The suggestion of the cake is that. Of course it is food; but it is a question of interpreting the thing spiritually, as to the suggestion of it. It is a whole idea, it sometimes denotes Christ, but you carry the thought into the assembly: "So also is the Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:12) -- that is not Christ personally, but the anointed vessel here, the assembly; it is the same thing carried through.

P.L. Would the hot stones be an allusion to an appreciation of the sufferings of Christ for the assembly?

J.T. You have in the types the idea of dough; that is what is needed in your soul's exercises, but it cannot be made into a cake unless it is baked, and that is the judgment of God.

J.W. Simeon and Anna were morally clean themselves and never gave up God's thoughts.

J.T. Yes, and that is what had marked Elijah himself up to this point. In the "little cake" and the "twelve stones" of the altar, no one held to the whole idea more than he. But now it is very beautiful to see how God comes in and draws attention to "a cake baked on hot stones, and a cruse of water"; there is a cruse now; he would not forget he had had to do with a cruse and the cake before -- everything is as it should be here.

H.B. Do you think the process of conversion with us a second or third time is often a recall as to our original impression? Here the cake is recalled and the cruse.

J.T. Yes, so you are set up in relation to all the previous light you have had; that is the idea.

Rem. No ravens are employed now.

J.T. No, it is an angel. There is no repetition of the word cake in verse 7, that is already there. The angel says "Arise, eat": eating and drinking now are a general thought.

W.C.G. Would the cruse suggest the operations of the Holy Spirit in the assembly?

J.T. That would be the suggestion, that it is the Holy Spirit in a vessel. The torrent is not that, it is the sovereign action of the Spirit to revive one.

Ques. What journey was too great for him?

J.T. The going to Horeb, the retracing the journey of Israel. He would be reminded by every step he took, that he was going the reverse way; the Lord's purpose does not move this way. Faith has moved far away from Horeb, but I am going back to it; still he went "in the strength of that food".

Rem. He had to learn he was no better than his fathers.

J.T. Exactly. "All flesh is as grass", even Elijah's flesh!

W.H.M. I get the sin question settled, but then I have to learn "that no flesh should boast before God". That is what you would speak of as a second conversion?

J.T. Quite so, and we often get away from faith: Peter had to have a second conversion. It is interesting to read the four accounts of that Second conversion, and how the Lord's word came to his mind -- "Peter remembered the word that Jesus Said to him".

J.McC.R. Would you say Elijah recognised that God could carry on the testimony without him?

J.T. Yes. It says he "went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb the mount of God" (chapter 19: 8). We have spiritual touches here, it is the mount of God still; that is, the law is not abrogated, it has force. Horeb denotes the law in the way of the covenant. So that it has force. We are now being led into spiritual surroundings -- it is "Horeb the

mount of God", and it is no small matter for a man to go forty days and forty nights on two meals. He is in wonderful company in the duration of his fasting, the company of Moses and the company of the Lord Jesus, now. So there is encouragement for anyone who may have turned aside from the path, in the way God comes in and touches him, and enables him to take a journey like this. He is on spiritual ground now, he is at Horeb, the mount of God. "The word of Jehovah came to him, and he said to him, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for Jehovah the God of hosts; ... And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before Jehovah". Now he is to be brought back to earlier history, he is to stand before Jehovah: God brings us back to earlier history, and sets us up in all that we have been. Then these three things come out: first, "Jehovah passed by", that is exactly what Moses was privileged to see on the mount earlier; but Jehovah came down full of grace to Moses; here it is that Jehovah passed by in relation to His power in creation. It says, "and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, ... Jehovah was not in the wind. And after the wind, an earthquake: Jehovah was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake, a fire: Jehovah was not in the fire. And after the fire, a soft gentle voice". He is in the voice -- that is the idea, there is a voice in all this.

P.L. That brings us back to the Revelation -- what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

J.T. Quite so. So John "turned back to see the voice", -- an anomalous thing -- he turned to see the voice because he had a Person in his mind. There must be a person behind the voice. Here it is Jehovah Himself in His own voice, not in the wind, nor in the earthquake, nor in the fire, for it is not a question of His attributes, or His power in creation, it is what He is Himself, in His own voice.

G.H.P. There is progress. First an angel came to

to him, then the word of Jehovah came to him, but now a voice came to him.

J.T. Yes, a voice has something distinctive about it; it denotes a person. The voice here is God speaking in Christ.

P.L. Is the voice peculiarly attached to the thought of the cake? Paul heard the voice from heaven saying, "Why persecutest thou me?"

J.T. The "me" is the cake. You have the sound from heaven in Acts 2the voice from heaven in Acts 9and the sheet from heaven in Acts 10. The voice is very appealing: the bridegroom in Canticles says, "Let me hear thy voice" -- the Lord loves the voice of His people. But what an appeal has the "soft gentle voice" to anyone who has turned aside from the path of faith! God has been touching him in his circumstances in one way or another, and now He would speak to him, 'It is I myself'.

Rem. So the food has the end in view, not the journey through the wilderness exactly.

J.T. Quite so; but here, it is the mouth of Jehovah, and never more tenderly apparent than here; for Jehovah is there Himself, not as He had spoken in thunder, but in a soft gentle voice: there is nothing to alarm the heart, but to attract it. He says, as it were, 'It is I myself'.

P.L. Do you not think Elijah with Moses would take on the soft and gentle voice, as they spoke to that same Person about His decease on another mount?

J.T. Yes, the mount of transfiguration. Elijah "wrapped his face in his mantle", it says here, "and went out and stood in the entrance of the cave". I suppose the mantle had some virtue: there is some encouragement in his soul in relation to the mantle, so that he goes out, he is now moving towards God. The mantle has its own place, he will use it at the end of the chapter in relation to Elisha; and he will use it again at the Jordan.

P.L. Does the mantle suggest that in his soul he is returning to the dignity of his commission?

J.T. Yes, I think it is his measure spiritually; he is coming back to that. After all, every christian has a measure, lack of faith robs him of it; but now Elijah is coming back to it, to what he is in Christ. The next thing is, "he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entrance of the cave". That is, now he is facing God according to the soft gentle voice, and then he is there according to his measure. I think faith is coming back. Think of what Peter was as he came back! All that he had been enters into it, he lost nothing. We lose nothing, the work of God stands, and faith comes back to it. It is not only what God has done in Christ, but what God has done in me, that is unalterable too; the work of God is indestructible: it is very encouraging to come to that. So he is wrapped in his mantle, and he said, "I have been very jealous for Jehovah the God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I am left, I alone, and they seek my life, to take it away". This is repeated now -- it had been said before. Well, he is not going to have any fellowship, he is going to be a poor isolated man all his life, on his own showing, whereas when God began at Horeb, one of the first things He spoke of there was the "thousands of them that love me". We must never forget that: not the thousands of those that should love Him, but the thousands of those that do. And apparently Elijah has no thought that there are any who do, so that he is going to be a lone man all his days! But that is not God's thought, there are those that "call upon the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Timothy 2:22), those with whom we are to follow "righteousness, faith, love, peace". But Elijah says, "... I alone".

P.L. When a man has himself as his theme, vain repetition marks him, for he has not much to say;

whereas, if we have Christ as our theme with our brethren, we have like David many psalms -- there is great variety in the praise?

J.T. The Lord now has to say something definite: He says, "Go return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus; and when thou comest anoint Hazael king over Syria; and Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah shalt thou anoint prophet in thy stead". There are three persons anyway that are worthy of anointing, so that he is not alone! God has three persons, and seven thousand besides. It says, "Yet I have left myself seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him".

W.H.M. Is that the same seven thousand as are spoken of in verse 15 of the next chapter?

J.T. Well, there is a link there, I think. They are seven thousand warriors there, but here they are to be reserved for God. Notice He takes account of their mouths.

P.L. Do these men use their mouths effectively; Naboth in relation to the inheritance, and Micah in relation to the throne?

J.T. Yes, that comes out. No one knows the number of christians in christendom; who can tell them, except God? But He knows them -- "The Lord knoweth them that are his". But God says, 'I will work in relation to them too, I am going to slay what is in the way: these three men will execute My judgment here'. The first who came into the account is Elisha, and he does not slay people, it is a question of grace; that is the position; instead of actual slaying, you have bringing people down in grace -- that is Elisha's ministry.

P.L. So that no one escapes him. With the other two the work is not complete, but the spirit of grace in the present dispensation brings everything to completion.

J.T. Quite so. God tells Elijah how to go back, "Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus", but, instead of that, "he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was ploughing with twelve yokes before him". Here is a man who is doing something positive, there is going to be a crop out of all this. God always has that in mind; and, if we are to have a crop, we must plough. This man is ploughing; there are twelve yokes ploughing, and he is with the twelfth.

Rem. We do not usually connect with the wilderness ploughing with twelve yokes of oxen: he does not seem to have gone the way he was told, by the wilderness.

J.T. I think it is what he is doing himself; the man's recovery is now in view, 'I do not want to give up office', would express his feelings if he was not recovered -- 'I will go to Elisha last'. But he goes to Elisha first, he is ready to be displaced; and that is, I believe, the ground of the honour put on him later.

Rem. Actually Elijah never did anoint Hazael and Jehu.

J.T. No, we may say it was by Elisha. So I think his action was that of a recovered man, as he goes to the man who is to replace him, and he is ploughing with a crop in view -- that shows his moral greatness.

P.H. Are the twelve yokes of oxen suggestive of the whole thought of Israel?

J.T. That is the idea. They are all before him; he is with the last.

P.H. So the recovery of Elijah brings great thoughts into view, nothing less than the whole of Israel.

J.T. That is what I understand, the idea of a crop comes in. I think the recovery of Elijah is seen in the fact that the mantle comes into view again. It is what you are that affects another person; that is a question of what influence I have; and that is not a matter of light merely, but of what I am myself. So it says, "Elijah went over to him, and cast his mantle on him".

R.K.C. Do you connect that with Paul asking for the cloke? 2 Timothy 4:13.

J.T. Yes, I would connect this mantle of Elijah's with Paul's cloke. Every step Timothy took with that cloke, he would say as it were, 'That suggests something greater than I' Such a thought keeps us right, it balances us.

H.B. Do you think this is a feature of the man of God throughout scripture? Moses and Joshua; Elijah and Elisha; Paul and Timothy: each would take care as to a successor.

J.T. I think that is right. The idea of someone coming in begins with Genesis 3, with the Seed of the woman. So Eve says, "I have acquired a man with Jehovah" -- that is, someone to carry on. So right through Scripture, it is a question of someone to continue.

P.L. Does one often qualify for succession in an obscure locality like Abel-meholah? It is only mentioned elsewhere once. Would it suggest a brother in a meeting engaged in promoting the food supply, like Gideon?

J.T. Yes. One like that gives dignity to the place, "The village of Mary and Martha".

All this brings out the completeness of Elijah's recovery, that he looks for the man who is to replace him first; that is a very great test, for we naturally want to keep office as long as we can. David set Solomon on the throne alongside himself before he died. So we have to encourage the young brothers to come forward, to make room for them.

THE RIGHTS AND PATIENCE OF GOD IN TESTIMONY (4)

1 Kings 20:26 - 43; 1 Kings 21:17 - 29; 1 Kings 22:31 - 34

J.T. In these chapters we have the second phase of our subject; that is, the patient grace of God as witnessed in our own times in carrying on the service of grace in christendom; even employing persons who are not characteristically obedient, but who may at times come under the divine ordering; God thus giving victory after victory, but at the same time discriminating, so that, however much men may be used in the service of God, and through His patience, God "by no means clearing the guilty", Exodus 34:7. He gives good credit, but by no means clears the guilty, so the judgment of God finds out Ahab in the midst of the battle, protecting Jehoshaphat. We are told in Chronicles that Jehovah diverted the Syrians from Jehoshaphat, and the king of Israel is wounded, and dies afterwards, and is buried in Samaria, and the dogs licked his blood. It is this side of the truth that enters into these chapters. What would be seen in the passage read from chapter 20 is the use of the word "prophet" in verse 13, and again in verse 22; and in verse 28, "the man of God" -- this prophetic service attending on Ahab; that is, as representing the responsible element in the sphere of profession. God uses what there is in the way of prophetic ministry, to augment what is being done, so that every help in keeping with the divine mind is available, and yet He by no means clears the guilty. Although there are those in evil associations who are really the Lord's, like Jehoshaphat, they are saved only "as by fire".

H.B. These persons are unnamed. Do you take them to be Elijah, or others who are raised up?

J.T. I think others. It is more that kind of prophetic service, without distinguishing anyone, it is in whomsoever it may be seen. Then, besides that, there

is the man who values the inheritance, "Naboth the Jizreelite had a vineyard", and he valued it as the inheritance of his fathers.

H.B. Are these individuals from amongst the seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal?

J.T. Quite so, they belong to the seven thousand. We do well to keep our eye on these features, the prophetic features, the man of God, and the man who values the inheritance; and finally, the man who is saved at the end so as by fire -- that is Jehoshaphat. We get Micaiah too -- another prophet named. Then we get in the last part of chapter 20 "a certain man of the sons of the prophets" acting for God. So that we have a remarkable range of divine agencies augmenting and supporting the responsible element; so that, if anything can be done, they have every facility for doing it, God helping them. Yet it all culminates in the complete destruction of Ahab and Jezebel, but the preservation of every bit that is for God, represented in Jehoshaphat.

Rem. You speak of victory after victory; what would those victories be in christendom?

J.T. There would be many such victories since the Reformation, during the past hundred years, in the sphere of profession; the Lord has not given up His rights in it, nor will He, while the Holy Spirit is here. Whatever is done has to be accredited to God working with poor instruments perhaps, but whatever is done, would have its value, and is to be noted. There has been much work carried on, souls have been saved, and the truth, in very large measure, has been maintained by certain agencies; but God is "by no means clearing the guilty", and the garment spotted by the flesh is always in view for judgment.

Ques. It says, in the address to Philadelphia, "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut". Is that the resource for this day?

J.T. That goes a little beyond what we have in these chapters, but of course, it is always true.

P.L. Is it like Eldad and Medad in the camp, an agency Moses is thankful for?

J.T. Just so.

W.J.W. What is the thought of the sons of the prophets?

J.T. They are the product of an earlier generation which God owned. The prophets are formally recognised; but the sons of the prophets are very uncertain -- you may find a good one, and you may find others who divert from the truth.

W.J.W. So Elisha found them when they attempted to look for Elijah.

J.T. Yes, they were diverting from the truth of ascension. Although Elisha knew as well as they that the Lord had taken Elijah away, yet they even influenced Elisha in a wrong direction; so you cannot trust them, yet there may be a good one here and there. "A certain man of the sons of the prophets said to another by the word of Jehovah, Smite me, ..." -- that is a good one, that is a useful son of a prophet. "A man of God" is more than is conveyed by the term 'a son of a prophet'. The order is that, in verse 13, a prophet draws near to Ahab; in verse 22, a prophet drew near to the king of Israel; and in verse 28, the man of God drew near and spoke to the king of Israel: then, in verse 35, a certain man of the sons of the prophets. That is the order in which that subject stands. God has His hidden servants. If we keep our eye on divine territory, that in which God has rights and asserts them, we shall see that He uses whom He will, and we shall not quarrel with any whom God may use -- we just accept them. We let God act sovereignly in His own territory, and, as the Lord said to the disciples, "Forbid them not". They would have forbidden them to cast out demons because they did not walk with, or follow, them; but the Lord says, "Forbid them not".

J.F.C. Is "the man of God" a mature thought?

J.T. I think so; he stands in a crisis, he can be relied on. Elijah is pre-eminently 'the man of God' as was recognised by the widow in her house.

W.C.G. We have to recognise men like Wesley and Whitefield.

J.T. Yes. Such are not to be despised; but then the garment spotted by the flesh is to be hated, and that appears in all these great movements. God would help us so that the garment should not be spotted by the flesh.

J.C. In what way do you view Jehoshaphat here?

J.T. He represents, in this section, a christian in false associations -- and there are many of them, alas! But your eye is detained by the persons of these prophets: when we come to chapter 22 we have Micah, a very faithful prophet.

Rem. The prophet testifies to the responsible element, corresponding to the Lord Jesus addressing the "angel" in Revelation 2 and 3.

J.T. Quite so. That illustrates what we are saying that even the last phase of the assembly is given counsel -- 'come and buy from Me'. Those in the systems around are ready to pay for many things; the Lord says, 'Why do you not buy from Me?' He has the best things. That is the position today. The Lord's attitude toward the professing system is still one of grace, but He will by no means clear the guilty; He has His eye on the guilty.

Ques. Do you look on the sons of the prophets as taking sides with the man of God? -- "And the man of God drew near, and spoke to the king of Israel".

J.T. The prophet or the man of God is serving Ahab: he tells him three times over what is to happen, and what to do. What we have to see first of all is the service of the prophet to Ahab, and that Ahab himself is to be the general of the army. 'You are to be the leader', the word was. Ahab says, "By whom? And he

said, Thus saith Jehovah: By the servants of the princes of the provinces". It would look as if there is an allusion to those in the country. Our times are city times, they are marked by cities, the growth of cities is remarkable in all countries. But the suggestion here is that success will attend the princes of the provinces, and then he said, "Who shall begin the battle? And he said, Thou. And he numbered the servants of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty-two; and after them he numbered all the people, all the children of Israel, Seven thousand". There is distinguishment here in the numbering of the servants of the princes of the provinces, the young men; and then the total number, which is perfect -- seven thousand.

Ques. Is it remarkable that it is the servants of the princes of the provinces?

J.T. Well, the servants are young men; they are not persons of distinction. We are living in times in which distinctions of learning and ability in the nominal service of God have all the place, but these people have no distinctions of learning or religious distinctions, or anything of that kind; they are just the young men, or servants, of the princes of the provinces.

P.L. There was a man who came up from the country in another crisis, and he was used -- Simon the Cyrenian, to carry the cross.

J.T. Quite so. He had a great honour: which he did not seek, but there was evidently a result, for his sons appear in the testimony.

Ques. Does it show that God can do His own work in His own wherever He has put them?

J.T. Just so, that is what the record shows. God is operating in His own territory. You may say, 'Well, the instrumentality is poor; the material is poor'; but then, God acts in spite of difficulties and obtains results; He shows that He discriminates, that He never loses sight of what is against Him -- that comes into judgment.

Rem. Why does it refer to the perfect number of seven thousand?

J.T. I think to bring out how God can rule and control things, and operate on His own principles in spite of the difficulties: He secures a perfect number.

Rem. Not one lost, in that way; all that is of God comes through.

J.T. Yes. As we were reminded this morning, there is no doubt a link between the divine answer to Elijah, and the seven thousand reserved, and this seven thousand under the Lord's hand.

Rem. The first reference to the seven thousand is, a negative one; they have not bowed the knee to Baal and their mouths have not kissed him: but here it is the positive side.

J.T. Yes. Ahab doubtless would not have chosen them: the Lord has such influence under these circumstances that Ahab takes on Jehovah's selection. I mean, it is the over-ruling influence of God, that He attains His end in spite of difficulties, and the difficulties are very great.

Rem. The Lord has all power in heaven and on earth.

J.T. That is right, and He shows it here. Ahab, the military man, would hardly have selected these; there is no evidence that they were military men specially, there are two hundred and thirty-two of them, they are distinguished by being numbered.

P.L. Would the fact that they are referred to as flocks of goats suggest an element of separation with them?

J.T. That comes in in the next battle. We have progression here. The first thing is, these men have no special distinction, yet they are the successful ones in the work of God.

F.I. Does it go to show that God is with the saints as a whole? Is that what sustains things here under the hand of God, rather than the administrative side? You

made a distinction between the provinces and the cities the cities are more on the administrative side.

J.T. You can see how that works out today. The administrative side, from the standpoint we are taking now, is the hierarchy; "the metropolitan", for instance, that is the administrative side; but God takes up something else, and that something else, has no outward distinction. It is composed of young persons in service, and they belong to the princes of the provinces, persons who are not specially related to the administrative side but belong to the company.

P.L. Would the persons named at Antioch be set off against Jerusalem, the metropolis?

J.T. Just so -- Niger and the others. They were drawn from very different parts of the earth.

P.H. These servants of the princes stand in contrast to the great company of Ben-hadad and the thirty-two kings.

J.T. Quite so. Think of the number of kings! that is the kind of thing in the world; it is the power of the world in royalty that Ben-hadad represents. But these young men are simple. Religious administrative leaders would not pay any attention to people who meet as we do.

Rem. As the apostle says in 1 Corinthians -- "things that are not, that he may annul the things that are" (chapter 1: 28).

Ques. Is this for the protection of the inheritance?

J.T. That is what we come to, the inheritance is in view, and the divine inheritance was being invaded: this is the great general territory of God which He still holds to, and Ben-hadad is invading that. God is going to meet him, notwithstanding the poor material He has. The general testimony God has in christendom -- it is all that God has, but the successful part lies with these young men, having no special distinction. We ought to get clear about these young men who have no status religiously. No doubt, in coming out of Samaria,

the thought is not exactly reproach, but rather that they are brought under administration; they are not without administration. They come out of the city, and then the king of Syria says, "Whether they be come out for peace, take them alive; or whether they be come out for war, take them alive. And these servants of the princes of the provinces came out of the city ..." -- which I apprehend to allude to the fact that they are not without administrative order. God has His eye on them. He has given them the service, and they are successful; so that it says, "they slew every one his man". They are in single combat, which, I understand, is the most testing of all features of war -- hand to hand combat, "And they slew every one his man; and the Syrians fled, and Israel pursued them". I understand what is brought out is that these are men, they are not only able to fight together, but they can fight singly. They were quitting themselves like men.

Rem. These are the moral qualities that were so desirable in Timothy's day. Like the faithful men to whom Timothy was to commit things.

J.T. Quite so, to faithful men.

H.C.L. It was the servants of the princes of the provinces who were to bring in deliverance, but these seven thousand referred to were Ahab's selection. Will you say a word as to that?

J.T. The people were numbered -- seven thousand, they were "the people" -- those that were there. That does not mean that all Israel was numbered, it means those that were available at the moment for war. I think the perfect number is to be noted; there is no credit to Ahab, it is what was there. It was God in His overruling power and influence, who brought all this about in spite of the most adverse conditions. So the victory was complete.

Now the next thing is the question of whether God can be limited. Read verses 22 - 24, "... take the kings away, every man out of his place, and put governors in

their stead". That corresponds to the modern removal of royalty and putting up of presidents and the like, persons of less note. But the issue was, Is He not a God of the valleys also? Does His power not extend to the valleys, the plateaux? And that brings in the question of the resurrection, for Jesus went down into the depths, the power of God is seen there: He is not only God above, He is God below. So that the whole truth as to God and His power is in question.

H.B. The power of the world in its democratic or republican phases is no greater against the testimony than in its royal form.

J.T. It seems as if they suggested a wise thing, but it did not avail anything against God. So it says, "The children of Israel were numbered and victualled, and they went against them; and the children of Israel encamped before them like two little flocks of goats" (chapter 20: 27).

Ques. Why two?

J.T. I suppose it would be the idea of testimony to the thought involved. Goats take an individual path -- it is the idea of separation. That is brought in in 2 Timothy. Timothy is the goat, he separates, but he does not remain separated, 2 Timothy 2:19 gives us the goat -- let him "withdraw from iniquity"; he withdraws from the evil: he is isolated, but he does not remain isolated, he follows "righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". I think that brings in the two little flocks of goats over against the enormous area of opposition -- "the Syrians filled the land", it says. Outside these two little flocks of goats there is not one to take God's side. I think God is narrowing things down, as it were, where He had been operating; the denominations are becoming of less and less account, they are becoming honeycombed with evil; apostasy is already there, and there is very little going on. But over against the country full of Syrians you have these two little flocks of goats.

Rem. It is not natural for goats to be in flocks.

J.T. No, they serve in the way of separation, but they do not remain separate.

P.L. So that before the bride in Canticles can be really united to Christ, 2 Timothy features have appeared. "Thy hair is as a flock of goats" (chapter 4: 1). Hair speaks of strength.

J.T. These two little flocks of goats are very striking. God gives the victory. Whatever is going on today for God, I believe the testimony is maintained in smallness, in little flocks, like these two flocks of goats, having no apparent power at all to cope with what is against them, but God is on their side.

Ques. Have the flocks individually to maintain the characteristics of separation?

J.T. I think so. We can understand it now in the light of the New Testament; all the Scriptures were written for us; we can see how the whole truth is being maintained by those who are in separation; you cannot trust any others.

Ques. Is that the result of the numbering and victualling?

J.T. That is very beautiful. They were numbered and victualled -- they are fed. You do not get that before; they are fully provided for from God's point of view, so that they are not overcome.

P.L. The Lord, in John 17, speaks of "the men whom thou gavest me". Has He not numbered and victualled them?

J.T. Exactly. A century ago this little flock came to light; God numbered them and gave them great light. That light is for christendom: the Collected Writings by J. N. Darby are for christendom; the great victory was for every person in christendom; but what use do they make of it? Ben-hadad represents the responsible side of the opposition; but Ahab spared the world, and accepted it on its own terms. In the history of christendom

they have accepted the world on its own terms, which is what Ahab did here.

Ques. Does that emphasise what you have spoken of? God will by no means clear the guilty. The acceptance of such things will bring down God's judgment on it.

J.T. It will. All that light of the last hundred years will bring God's judgment on these men; every society and association will be brought into judgment. The question will be, 'Why did you not profit by all this light?' Instead of that, they accepted on its own terms the world which the light condemned.

P.H. Is the contrast to that, having the God of the valleys with you as seeking to walk in the path of separation?

J.T. Quite so, we ought to understand the God of the valleys -- Gethsemane, and how God came in in power there. The next thing is, Is Ahab, the responsible element in christendom, to be allowed to go without rebuke? That is the service rendered by "a certain man of the sons of the prophets": but, in order to render the service, to rebuke Ahab, he has to suffer himself. This is another matter. If I am to be of service in this way, I have to suffer myself; in other words, I have to bear in my body the brands of the Lord Jesus. He says to one, "Smite me, I pray thee". If I am a loose kind of brother, and not sympathetic with the testimony, I will not smite another in this sense; and if I follow that out fully, it would mean, Why should God smite Jesus? That is what that means, that is in the man's mind; yet he seems to be a nice kind of man. If I do not learn to smite people in the sense spoken of here, I am of no use to God. God smote Jesus -- "they persecute him whom thou hast smitten", Psalm 69:26, "Smite the Shepherd" -- Jesus had to be smitten.

P.L. God "hewed them by the prophets", Hosea 6:5. Is that the smiting?

J.T. Well, it is. The smiting of course is not with

literal swords now; it is by the word of God we smite people. Natural sentiment would say, 'No, you must not be so severe on people as that'.

P.L. "Pity thyself, Lord!"

Rem. You mean, you would tell a man that if he continues on his present path he will come into judgment.

J.T. I am to judge him by the word of God -- that is the principle.

F.I. Does being consistent with the Timothy principle bring in suffering, but at the same time you would stand out as one who condemned the systems around?

J.T. That is the way it stands. One has to bear in one's body, as Paul did, "the brands of the Lord Jesus", Galatians 6:17. If I am to be in the hands of God to minister rebuke to christendom, I must do that.

P.L. I must be in the hands of God to rebuke the offender if I am to be used of Him to recover the one who offended? Paul would have things committed to faithful men.

J.T. That is the idea, "A certain man of the sons of the prophets" is a faithful man. This brings out what has been before us, what God had, "He found another man" -- the first man would not do it, but there is another man -- and he says to him, "Smite me, I pray thee. And the man smote him violently, and wounded him". Now why did he do that? He did not ask him to smite him violently, but he represents the idea; God smote Christ violently in judgment when He took our place, so that we must not be easy on the flesh if we are to be of service to God.

Ques. Did Paul smite Peter when he said, "I withstood him to the face, because he was to be condemned", Galatians 2:11.

Rem. It says, "rebuke with all authority", Titus 2:15.

J.T. Quite so. So this man is to face the king of

Israel and he is to face him as a man smitten; that is the gospel. He is smitten himself -- the king of Israel is obliged to state the truth, he says, "So is thy judgment: thyself hast decided it", showing that he knew the truth; and these men do know the truth, but they do not obey it. So that the man of the sons of the prophets "hastily took the sash away from his face; and the king of Israel discerned him, that he was of the prophets". There it was, he was of the prophets, he belonged to that class. Instead of the king being convicted, it says, "the king of Israel went to his house sullen and vexed". He gets no good out of all this: he is drawing near to his end, he is not profiting by the testimony brought to him.

Ques. The psalmist says, "Let the righteous smite me, it is kindness; and let him reprove me, it is an excellent oil which my head shall not refuse". Psalm 141:5. Would that be the same principle?

J.T. Quite so. This man who smites violently is a man we have to reckon with.

H.B. An interesting word appears in these chapters, the word "found". He "found Elisha"; then this man "found" a man who would smite him. Is that a feature of the present day -- finding suitable persons?

J.T. I think so. In the first case, he "said to another ..." -- that is anyone; but this man who smites violently is a "found" man, as if he had to be found; it was not anybody in the street who would do this.

Rem. Would you link him with the man who knew something about the cake and the cruse of water? He could smite violently in relation to the official system that Ahab represented.

J.T. Exactly, the violent smiting had that in view. It was something very wrong, and this man who is smitten is in a vicarious position. But if Jesus had to suffer, smitten of God and afflicted, shall I escape if I continue in the path of self-will? That is what Ahab had to learn, that is the testimony. He "went to his

house sullen and vexed"; but then the bow at a venture reached him, the judgment of God reached him.

P.H. Were these the exercises that reached the Galatian saints as Paul came before them? He spoke of them as desiring to have a fair appearance in the flesh. Bearing in his body "the brands of the Lord Jesus" -- would that be his power to put them on different lines?

J.T. I thought that was why it was brought in there. It was a question of suffering, not the literal circumcision, but the suffering for Christ.

Ques. Would it connect with what we have in 2 Corinthians, chapters 4 and 5 -- "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus"?

J.T. That would fit in.

Ques. How would it be made practical in local circumstances?

J.T. You are brought into accord with Christ -- "Bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus".

H.B. Do you think the vineyard in the next chapter is a further thought?

J.T. It brings in a higher thought, as if God is generalising in this chapter, giving the responsible leaders in christendom every advantage, but now God is at issue with Ahab. There is an issue between the man who has the inheritance and values it, and these leaders. They want what you have.

P.L. Is the thought of their wanting your inheritance like Laodicea, the imitative system seeking to steal the Philadelphian features?

J.T. Yes, they would be glad to have what those have who are subject to God, who keep His commandments; such persons get wonderful things from God by the Spirit. These leaders would take all that without paying the price, without going through what is necessary to that end.

Ques. Would they not use the inheritance for their own fancies, making it a garden of herbs?

J.T. It is only recently I have seen a letter from a brother who has been much before us, in which he said he valued the fellowship, but was not prepared for the responsibilities entailed. There he is writing down his own condemnation. I mean one like that is doing so. The inheritance is something to be valued, and we are not to give it up on those lines.

W.C.G. Jacob was one who valued the inheritance.

J.T. Yes, he valued what came down to him, the birthright, and God values a man who appreciates the birthright.

W.C.G. So we ought to value our position.

Rem. Ahab would have turned the vineyard into a garden of herbs, thus he would limit it to his own use.

J.T. Just so. Then we get what Jezebel would do. She comes to the aid of the leading man and kills Naboth, puts him out of the way. We must not assume that such a spirit is not abroad today, for there is that murderous spirit; if it could only do what it would wish to do. So that all this brings out the position of the saints, those who value the inheritance; they are exposed to the bitter hostility of Jezebel.

Rem. We would value it more if we took account of the fact that it has been handed down to us by our fathers who went through the warfare.

J.T. Quite so. Naboth said to Ahab, "Jehovah forbid it me, that I should give the inheritance of my fathers to thee!" God greatly values that. It is the finishing touch here; a man who values the inheritance and dies at the hand of Jezebel because he holds to it.

P.L. He has the tenacity of a Philadelphian -- holding fast.

J.T. That is the thought -- holding fast; you must not let anything go.

Rem. The false witnesses make an untruthful statement against the man who holds the inheritance; we find that today.

J.T. It is distressing that persons known as brethren

should descend to such untruthfulness as may be seen in current attacks on the truth. These men set up by Jezebel were deliberately untruthful.

Rem. Alexander the coppersmith greatly withstood the word of Paul, and we have men like that today.

J.T. I believe the enemy has sought to take away our inheritance by a very circuitous route recently; to take away the rich inheritance that has come down to us as to the principles of fellowship. The enemy has endeavoured to bring in false principles that have been fought against by those who have preceded us, and through whom we have handed down to us the principles that govern the house of God -- a rich inheritance. The enemy has by a very round-about way endeavoured to rob us of it, and to weaken the young amongst us who know little or nothing about the conflicts that have preceded in the maintenance of the truth governing the house of God; and there is a constant effort to lessen the value of these principles in our minds when we do know them. So that Naboth is an outstanding testimony and witness to those who value the inheritance and hold it fast. Naboth did not want to barter his inheritance at any price. We cannot surrender the inheritance, it is priceless.

P.H. Would the meeting for ministry be the way in which the Lord is seeking to establish us?

J.T. I think a meeting for ministry is good. It is for all the saints in a place gathered together; so the prophets have opportunity for ministering what they have, one after another. There is no doubt, if we are true in these meetings (for it really is a question of loyalty to one another, that we do not take advantage of one another) I believe the Lord will give a prophetic word, so that people will fall down and say, "God is indeed amongst you".

J.G. Is there any light in Scripture to regulate us as to when we should have such meetings?

J.T. Any convenient time. The order in 1 Corinthians is:-

Chapter 10, the great general thought of fellowship.

Chapter 11, the inclusive thought of the Lord's supper.

Chapter 12, the organism, the unity -- it is called "the Christ", in verse 12, it is dignified, which would mean that the flesh is not allowed, we "have all been given to drink of one Spirit", that is, we are all satisfied, we are satisfied in the position.

Chapter 13, love, the way of surpassing excellence, love amongst ourselves.

Chapter 14, the ministry of the gifts -- prophecy is especially commended, and it is, when "the whole assembly come together in one place".

In chapter 11, it is not the whole assembly, it is "when ye come together in assembly" -- it is in function there, and may include several subdivisions in a city, as you have here; but chapter 14, is when all the saints are together, the whole assembly is together in one place; not exactly in assembly, but in one place. All the saints may be there, and there is room there for ministry; however many the saints may be, they should be there.

P.L. So that the Lord's voice to the city as such may be heard assemblywise.

J.T. Yes, however many there are in the city they are to be there -- the whole assembly in one place.

H.C.L. It does not exclude any. If, for instance, I was in such a meeting here, having come from another locality, would it be open for me to take part?

J.T. Surely; the truth of the body would cover that. As coming together in this way an unbeliever may come in and be so affected by the presence of God through prophetic ministry, that he falls down and acknowledges -- not simply his guilt, but -- that God is there. That is the point -- God is in the assembly.

A.E.L. The secrets of his heart are manifested.

J.T. Quite so, but the point is that God is recognised to be there through ministry.

P.L. Should it be part of the temple services, on the local assembly calendar, as you might say, and be comparatively regular?

J.T. I think it is mentioned as though it were regular.

Ques. Should two cities come together?

J.T. It should always be local; it never loses its local setting. If others come in, it does not lose that character.

Ques. What would you call a district?

J.T. A district would be County Down as this whole district, including Holywood. Bangor, etc. Scripture does not warrant that for administrative purposes. Paul speaks to the assemblies in Galatia to rebuke and correct them, but he does not constitute the province of Galatia an administrative area.

THE RIGHTS AND PATIENCE OF GOD IN TESTIMONY (5)

2 Kings 1:1 - 18; 2 Kings 2:1 - 14

J.T. What we see in these chapters is that one man falls and another ascends. Ahaziah fell down through a lattice and was sick. I suppose the general position is that the responsible element in the sphere of profession is marked in this way by fall and sickness, whereas the coming of the Lord, in the minds of the saints, involves ascent -- the thought of the ascent of our Lord Jesus. These chapters afford a climax to the subject under consideration, as corresponding with current conditions in the profession. There is a fall in the responsible element in chapter 1, and in chapter 2 we have the formal statement that Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens. What is of God is to go up, and is going up morally now, in the testimony being rendered. The one is moral descent, and the other moral elevation.

J.M. What do you mean by the fall as applying it to present conditions?

J.T. There has been moral descent in recent years in the sphere of profession; the authority of the Scriptures, and the relative godliness and fear of God that marked the leaders earlier, have almost disappeared.

Ques. Do you take Rome to represent the outward position in the profession at the present day, the others being states in that?

J.T. Yes, but the responsible element seen in Ahaziah or Ahab includes more than what is in Rome. Rome is always in evidence, that is Jezebel, the state is typified in her, but I think the responsible element represented in Ahab and Ahaziah here includes more than Rome. She still exists in this part of the history, although she is not mentioned until later in 2 Kings, when she comes in for formal destruction. The responsible element, represented in Ahab and Ahaziah, comes

rather under the providential dealings of God. Ahab's death was, so to speak, providential; although he died under the judgment of God, it happened in an unusual way, through "a bow at a venture".

Rem. He was not directly smitten of God -- there are those who are smitten.

J.T. Yes, it was a bow at a venture, although the judgment of God had been announced, but it was modified in that he humbled himself. All that comes under the providential dealings of God. Things are happening every day in that way, that faith discerns; but when Jezebel is destroyed she is not allowed to fall, she is cast down, she is destroyed in the street, and the dogs eat her -- a terrible thought!

Ques. Would the public side of it culminate in Revelation 18 -- "Babylon has fallen"? Are these to be taken as warnings to the public profession?

J.T. Yes, "Babylon has fallen" is a great general thought: she is not yet destroyed in Revelation 18, it is in chapter 19 she is destroyed -- she "has fallen, and has become the habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hated bird" (chapter 18: 2).

Ques. Is your point that this is a statement of consequences that exist and are present, prior to the actual cutting off?

J.T. Yes, the book of Revelation contemplates things happening under the ordinary providence of God; faith discerns they are His judgment; but later there are direct dealings in judgment that are not merely providential, but direct.

Ques. Alongside of that are you thinking there should be moral elevation?

J.T. That is what is going on. The moral declension, or degradation, and the moral elevation are going on at the same time. What is of God is being morally elevated, recovery has proceeded on those lines; God is bringing out the heavenly calling of the assembly,

and what becomes her now, and that is proceeding constantly; but the moral degradation of the general profession is proceeding also.

A.E.L. Without hope of recovery?

J.T. No, for the word to Ahaziah is, "Thou shalt not come down from the bed on which thou art gone up, but shalt certainly die" -- that is the end of it.

A.W.R. "Going up" is a characteristic expression in 2 Kings 2 -- would it suggest the moral elevation? Paul comes by the upper coasts to Ephesus -- is it from that line that the assembly is fallen?

J.T. I think so. That enters into the present testimony, the calling of God and all that goes with that involving literal elevation presently. Ephesians contemplates literal elevation -- He "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:6. That is not resurrection, but elevation from the earth, which, of course, will become actual when the assembly is taken up, but already the principle is there, spiritually, and should enter into our view of things and our formation now, so that we are morally elevated. Ahaziah had an upper chamber, but he fell nevertheless: the assembly is marked by an upper chamber; she began with that, and she will finish with that, I believe. It appears in Acts 1, and Acts 20 also.

P.L. Would you have this principle in the Acts? Judas fell and went to his own place, and the brethren are found in the upper room. Then you find Herod eaten of worms, and immediately the assembly is introduced in its elevation at Antioch.

J.T. Yes, I think that is good; it enters into this chapter.

J.P. Would Baalzebub, the god of Ekron, represent the teaching of today? The judgment was because Ahaziah sent to enquire of that source -- it is the authority of darkness.

P.L. Like spiritism today; that sort of thing, the authority of darkness -- Baal is authority.

J.P. They wanted to know if Ahaziah would recover, and they seek there as a source of information.

J.T. Yes, quite so, seeking elsewhere instead of from God. We see that all around in the profession, the turning away from God in the apostate state of things; their grossest forms may be in spiritism, christian science and all that, but, whatever the gross form may be, the thing is there, and permeates the whole profession.

Rem. The very one they enquired of will fall from heaven.

J.T. Yes, it is the general idea of falling which comes into evidence towards the end, the fall of what is unfaithful. The idea began with Ephesus, she is to remember from whence she had fallen; an element that enters into the profession. The rapidity of the fall after apostolic times, is one of the saddest features in the history of the assembly. After the apostles had left, you get hardly anything of value in that particular era.

L.D.F. What would you say of Jehovah sending Elijah to meet the messengers?

J.T. That brings out God's faithfulness as we have been considering it, and His patience. How patiently God testifies; instead of letting the messengers go and get into greater darkness, and the king die without any further testimony, he gets this faithful word. We get a sidelight on it, as to the kind of man Elijah was; the king knew him by the description; he had already known the external appearance of the prophet, an appearance that was in keeping with the moment -- God was not ashamed to be called his God. His clothing and manner were known well to the king, it is none other than the Elijah whom God had accredited publicly, and still wearing the same clothing, he has not fallen or degenerated, he is preserved.

Rem. John the baptist was girded.

J.T. Yes, the Lord says John the baptist was Elijah -- "Elias has already come, and they have not known him" (Matthew 17:12) -- he came in that character.

Rem. So apostasy developed in spite of repeated warnings.

J.T. That is what we shall see in this enquiry, I think; the patience of God in the presence of all this degeneration.

W.J. Do the garments represent a separate man?

J.T. I think they do: it is not only what a man says, but what he is. Elijah retains his external appearance; it is the new man, the measure of the man, the kind of clothes he wears. So that it is a voice to us as to how we do appear publicly, what one is, one's clothes. The description is, "He was a man in a hairy garment" (or as it may read, 'a hairy man') "and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins". Hair would allude, I think, to strength.

Ques. Would it suggest Nazariteship?

J.T. I think it would: Nazariteship underlies all this. The hairy garment and the girdle of leather about his loins all speak of strength.

Rem. He is not a false prophet in a hairy garment to deceive as in Zechariah 13:4.

J.T. No, he is the real prophet, the same man who had been accredited by God, as the king well recognised; so there is no excuse for the king, and out of his own mouth he is condemned. Instead of recognising the moral authority with Elijah, the king is asserting his own authority, he is sending a captain of fifty to tell him to come down. Why should he go down? The word is, "he went up to him, and behold, he sat on the top of the mount. And he spoke to him: Man of God, the king says, Come down!" Why should he give up his moral advantage?

Ques. Does that show how completely he is restored in the favour of God? showing the greatest moral elevation before actual translation?

J.T. Yes, it is a known experience, a position in Elijah showing moral elevation.

P.L. There is calm dignity in it -- "he sat". In the presence of all the uncertainty and strife of tongues in christendom, is he not hidden in the pavilion, like the psalmist, from the strife of tongues? (Psalm 31:20). The Lord sits so much in Matthew. It says He sat over against the treasury, and He spoke of those who sit in Moses' seat.

J.T. And, as He sat on the mount, His disciples came to Him.

Ques. Was this command to come down a command to surrender the moral elevation that marked him?

J.T. That is what it means. Had he come down, he would have become subservient to the king's authority, whereas moral authority belonged to Elijah. The voice in it for us is not to surrender the advantage God gives in a moral sense. Separation involves moral advantage, withdrawal from the ordinary religious level.

Ques. "Hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown", Revelation 3:11. Is that the thought?

J.T. Quite so. Then he says to him, "Man of God". That is a very dignified appellation applied to any man, but does this captain really mean it? I think this is an abuse of the most exalted title, without any sense of what is meant.

Ques. Is that why he says, "if I be a man of God ..."?

J.T. Yes, he says it over and over again. There is something attached to that. There is moral authority in his position on the hill, but that is to be supported from heaven; heaven is behind this title where it is properly applied. This is a voice to us as to retaining the advantage God gives. The enemy would come in to induce us to give it up. It seemed reasonable enough for the king to send a message like this. Why should he not come down? But he is a man of God. Elijah is retaining his advantage.

Rem. The enemy saw the matter was urgent, for the second captain says, "Come down quickly!"

J.T. Quite so, the second one is adding to the insult. The third discerns the position; God is with the third one, but the not giving up of things is important. Naboth refuses to give up his inheritance, and Elijah refuses to give up the advantage God had given him of moral authority. He had the advantage, not the king; he is telling the king what is going to happen. We do not want to give up any advantage God gives us that is founded on separation.

F.I. Elijah would represent a fixed principle, and departure from that would mean death. It is what is fixed, and any lowering of it means death, as it did with this captain and his host.

J.T. Quite so. Then there was the usage of an appellation that in itself meant spirituality. A man of God is morally the greatest title you can get; a man of God is a man who is with God, and has partaken of His character, and to use that title merely formally is most obnoxious. God asserts through Elijah the power that lies behind the title. Every appellation in spiritual things taken on by the profession and degraded accordingly, God takes back by showing His power behind them. It is like the spoiling of the Egyptians. These things belong to God, and God asserts His right to them, by showing His power in them.

Ques. Are we not in danger of using the names of divine Persons too easily?

J.T. I think we should be careful in using divine terms, or names of divine things, to use them in power, with some idea of what they mean. The word 'church' has become degraded in unbelieving lips. Faith alone can rightly use these terms; the terms in christianity have become degraded, and in that sense lost; but God would rescue them all. This title, 'man of God', is used remarkably sparingly in the New Testament, but it is used frequently in these books.

Ques. The fire that descended is called "the fire of God"; does that mean that God is asserting still more powerfully His thought as to the man of God?

J.T. I think so. It runs into the New Testament -- "our God is a consuming fire", Hebrews 12:29. Whether it be literal or spiritual, it is behind the man of God.

P.L. Does Revelation 1 answer to that? "His eyes as a flame of fire": then falling at His feet as dead, and the Lord's right hand laid on John, saying, "Fear not". Is that what the third captain does? If you stand by the principle as Elijah did, will not God see to the people? In a certain sense did He not give Elijah these fifty men who understood the position?

J.T. Quite so, and these men are saved. He "fell on his knees", that is very different to falling through the lattice. A man falling on his knees means he is in the presence of the power whereby he can get relief.

Ques. Would you say a little more as to the term "man of God" being frequent in the Old Testament and scarce in the New?

J.T. Well, it is one of the suggestions we have of the present value of the Old Testament, like the term "Son of man"; this latter term is used about eighty-four times in the New Testament by the Lord Himself, and it is used very frequently in Ezekiel. This is a picture of current circumstances to which 2 Timothy applies; this section brings out the value of the man of God. It is not an official thought, it is what a man is, and sometimes you do not get his name; the thought would be to emphasise the idea of the man of God.

Ques. Would the captain with the third fifty represent those who are following righteousness, faith, love and peace?

J.T. First, you recognise what the judgment of God is. The third captain and his fifty bowed to the judgment and cleared themselves. The man who names the name of the Lord and separates from iniquity is establishing a testimony; he is forming a judgment which

God never overlooks; and that judgment is to be executed in due course. He is executing it morally in separating from iniquity, and God will come in later and execute it publicly -- but it is his judgment. This man is falling on his knees before the real power (compare Numbers 16).

A.E.L. He is crying for mercy.

J.T. Yes. Morally he has left Ahaziah's system altogether, he is with Elijah.

Ques. Is the idea of the man of God one who has moral substance?

J.T. Quite so. There is something there to show that he is a man of God.

Ques. You called our attention to what the widow of Sarepta recognised by the resurrection of her son -- that Elijah was a man of God and she knew that the Lord was with him. It took her a little time to learn that?

J.T. Just so. She did not learn it easily. So if the Spirit of God uses a term there is substance behind it.

THE RIGHTS AND PATIENCE OF GOD IN TESTIMONY (6)

2 Kings 2:1 - 25

J.T. As was pointed out this morning, in chapter 1 one man falls; and in chapter 2, another is taken up to the heavens. The first, that is the king of Israel, representing in our own times the responsible element in the sphere of profession, falls through the lattice, which could not afford great support, nor is it intended for this, and he becomes sick. The responsible element is thus marked by moral disease, and is fallen; the full expression of it will be in Babylon -- "Great Babylon has fallen". Indeed the book of Revelation is marked, in a sense, by certain things falling, and others being elevated. We are to consider now the thought of what is taken up, and what will be observed is not only the fact of Elijah's translation to heaven but the time of it; it says, "when Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens ..."; the time of the rapture of the assembly is, we may say, now: that is, since the revival of the truth, the thought of the Lord's coming, the rapture of the assembly, was regarded and rightly so, as just pending, as imminent. What follows is in view of the rapture of the saints, and, in order that the significance of the chapter may be clear, we should see that it is not only the rapture of the assembly, it is a type of Christ's ascension too, and this enters into the ascension of the assembly: because undoubtedly the man child caught up to God and His throne, includes His body, the assembly (Revelation 12:5). So that it is "when" Jehovah would take him up -- the time of it, and what follows in view of that.

P.L. You get the idea of time with the Lord in the gospel of Luke -- the time of His receiving up, before He actually went.

J.T. That corresponds; you get that in Luke 9,

but historically it did not take place until after He was risen from the dead, as recorded in the last chapter of Luke, but much intervened. Luke 9 also gives us the transfiguration of Christ, and the word from the Father, "This is my beloved Son: hear him". Moses and Elijah spoke with Him of His decease which He should accomplish at Jerusalem, and, what should intervene was that He should be heard.

Ques. You referred to what followed in view of Elijah's translation: had you in mind the different places to which he had to go?

J.T. That is right, and you will observe that Elijah went with Elisha. It is a credit to Elisha that it is not said, 'Elisha went with Elijah', but that "Elijah went with Elisha"; there was already a move in Elisha's soul in that direction. Resurrection and ascension are by the way of death; we must go that way. There are many who talk much about the coming of the Lord, but who have no thought of moving to Gilgal. The word is that "when Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal", so Elisha is already moving in his mind from the place of death.

Ques. Do you think the prophet is instructing Elisha here, as to the way the moral end is to be reached before translation is actually effectuated?

J.T. I think that is the thought, that we should not only have the doctrine of the coming of the Lord, but be ready for it; so that the movement is from Gilgal to Bethel, from Bethel to Jericho, from Jericho to the Jordan: that is the moral way to ascension.

Ques. Perhaps you would tell us what those features mean?

J.T. There is much there to occupy us. I should like the brethren to get clear as to the time of the ascension, when Jehovah would do it -- for it is not simply that He would do it, but when He would do it. Then the state of Elisha is such that Elijah goes with him,

for he is already in movement in his mind. It says "Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal" -- that is the starting-point; the place of circumcision where the flesh is set aside in its energy: it is disallowed. Bethel is, of course, as no doubt most of us know, the house of God, an important feature of the truth to visit in the company of such a man as Elijah. How Elisha would be impressed! The great spirituality of Elijah would be felt in those surroundings.

Rem. The fact of their coming from Gilgal would make them ready for Bethel.

J.T. I thought that was the moral starting point. If people talk about the coming of the Lord, then you would enquire what are their living associations. It is somewhat noxious to be talking about things and ignoring the circumstances to which they apply morally. Ascension properly belongs to people who are residing at Gilgal; God will not take up the flesh in any way whatever. It is a question, therefore, of where we are in the state of our souls. That is the point in it -- "circumcised with circumcision not done by hand, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ", Colossians 2:11.

Ques. You spoke of the time. Do you imply that it is a question of the condition of the saints?

J.T. I thought the time synchronises with the Lord's coming. The Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David". "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". It is a question of state, and that state belongs to Gilgal, where the reproach of Egypt is rolled away, and the flesh judged unsparingly. It is "when Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens by a whirlwind". The times and seasons the Father reserves. "Of that day or of that hour no one knows, neither the angels who are in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father", Mark 13:32. A remarkable statement! a statement that we ought to well weigh just now, as to the place that a divine Person took in saying, "... nor the Son, but the

Father". But the state of the saints synchronises with that time -- I think that is the way the scripture puts it.

Rem. "And every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure", 1 John 3:3. That is your thought, and you would look for a revival of affections before the Lord's shout is heard.

J.T. Yes. Then you would become conversant with what God has here, that is, His house. We are going to heaven to the Father's house. People talk of that very much who have never had a thought of the house down here; the house down here is the point now, that is Bethel. That was the great issue in the days of the Bethesda conflict; it was a question of the house of God and the order of it. That is really what this alludes to. I mean the saints are directed by the teaching here to Bethel, and under the greatest advantage. That is, Elijah is going himself with Elisha to Bethel: it is not like reading ministry about the house of God. It is the Lord going with you; He is so intent on your going, that He goes with you, to make sure that you get some idea of the house, that God has a place down here in which He resides, where His love is known, where Christ as Son is over it and orders it. He is very intent on that, that saints should get from Himself a true idea of the house. The Lord says, "the bondman abides not in the house for ever"; the idea of the bondman is not continuous in the house, but "the son abides for ever. If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free", John 8:35 - 36. As Elijah went with Elisha to Bethel, what thoughts would come in! Elijah full of the thoughts of God, alluding back to Jacob's time. It says in chapter 18: 31 of the previous book, "the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the word of Jehovah came saying, Israel shall be thy name" -- Elijah would impress Elisha with all that enters into this place, Bethel.

Rem. Paul in his letter to Timothy emphasises the house of God -- "that thou mayest know how one

ought to conduct oneself in God's house", 1 Timothy 3:15.

Rem. Hiel, who built Jericho, is said to be a Bethelite: he did not stop at Gilgal.

J.T. That is a serious matter. He is professedly a churchman, as we may say, yet he is building Jericho, building up the world; but Elisha will never do that! Elijah would impress him with what the house is. When Jacob went up to Bethel he had to put away all the idols, and he commanded his house to do it.

Ques. Why is Jericho the next step?

J.T. I think it is that we may be imbued with the power that overthrows the world. Luke says that the Lord entered Jericho and passed through. What thoughts would enter the Lord's heart as He passed through the city, reverting back in mind to the 6th of Joshua! The Lord would be full of the thought, and as he passed through it Zacchaeus was there, a man who wanted to see the Lord, who He was -- a Man that "passed through" Jericho. The believer is to be imbued with the power of God in the overthrow of the world.

Ques. When you spoke of going from Gilgal, did you mean one should go through this world with the death of Christ upon him?

J.T. That is right, the idea is circumcision, something rolled away -- the reproach of Egypt, that would be the world, is rolled away, and the house of God brings in another world, another order of things. It is there that you get disclosures. Jacob went there, and God says, "I am the God of Bethel", He made known to Jacob who He was.

Ques. Would you say the truth of baptism and of the Son of God would be before them?

J.T. Quite so. At Peniel, the "man" refuses to tell him his name, but Jehovah told him His name in His house.

Rem. Elijah calls him Elisha here at Bethel, not before. It was there that God said to Jacob, "Thy

name shall not henceforth be called Jacob, but Israel", -- a prince, Genesis 32:28.

J.T. Yes, we are ennobled as God discloses things to us; we are made fit for the place.

Ques. What is the thought as to Elisha being challenged from time to time to remain at each spot?

J.T. Well, it is a challenge to you as to whether you are satisfied with the point reached? Many are satisfied with an acquired reputation; we might stop there; but we miss the mind of God if we do. Satan would keep us there, but I suppose Elijah knew -- the Lord knows anyway, what is in us, and He challenges our hearts at each point as to what is there -- and what comes out is that Elisha will not leave Elijah.

Rem. The Lord had moral elevation before Him in Philippians, but it was through death -- "let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus"; He "becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross".

J.T. Yes. I think the idea of getting a name in the place is a test. Someone gives me a reputation, that is, my name becomes known among the brethren, and I stop there; I, so to speak, make that my little home. That will not do! That is the end of my growth till I judge it. Elisha shows he is equal to all this: he seeks no reputation -- "I will not leave thee", he says.

P.L. Is not movement with Paul accentuated after he gets his name changed?

J.T. Yes, that is good -- in Acts 13 you mean. He got a name in most extraordinary circumstances. He and Barnabas went from Antioch and took ship and set out for Cyprus. They went the length of the island, and apparently got no converts; then they met a man called Bar-jesus, who is a son of the devil -- there is not much encouragement in him -- but Saul deals with him, and is then called Paul -- "who also is Paul". He always kept to that, a reputation that would mean "less than the least" of all. So God gives him the

distinction of having a company immediately; a man who has no reputation is owned of God -- "Paul and his company".

Rem. King Saul was told by Samuel to go to Gilgal and wait, but instead of doing that, he acted to secure his own position (1 Samuel 13:11). We see the contrast there.

J.T. Just so. What he did was right in his own eyes, and in doing so he writes himself down as unspiritual.

Ques. In regard to what you said about stopping at some of these places, would it encourage us to go on if we remembered we carry with us from each stage something with which to go on to the next, so that we leave nothing behind, but rather accumulate substance?

J.T. I think that is right. Going down to Jericho would be the next point after Bethel where we have proved the reality of the house -- but can that stand in the presence of the world? How will you get on? Men say, 'You are nobodies; you have no organisation, no means to carry this on. Look what we have got!' Well, I think that going to Jericho would remind us of the power of God against the world, that we can cope with all that, by the power of God.

P.L. Do all these things come before us in John's gospel? The Son of man lifted up -- Gilgal. Then you have all the privileges and secrets of the house in those chapters that follow chapter 12. Then "be of good courage: I have overcome the world" -- is that Jericho?

J.T. That is right, "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out" (John 12:31), then, "be of good courage: I have overcome the world", John 16:33.

Ques. Is the power known through attachment to the Person?

J.T. Quite so. What you get over Jordan is the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof. They do not go up to heaven; it is a mistake to think Elijah

went up in them -- "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens", that is what was native there; the chariot of Israel remains here, it is the power for the overthrow of Jericho, that is the idea.

P.L. Does that power multiply as the exigencies of the testimony demand it? So the young man, the servant of Elisha, in chapter 6: 17, sees a great number of these chariots.

J.T. That is the idea, so even the king of Israel, when he saw Elisha for the last time, when he was dying, said, "the chariot of Israel and the horsemen thereof!" (2 Kings 13:14). That was Elisha's gift and it entered into his ministry.

Rem. You could not understand Jericho if you had not been through Gilgal and Bethel.

J.T. The point is, Bethel is secured in your mind; the principles of the house must be carried through. The principles in themselves are needed as light, but the support is in the power of God; it is by the Spirit of God we are sustained, not only by light. The power is the Spirit and the Spirit of God is in the house, and it is the same power that overthrew Jericho that is with us.

Ques. It says in John's epistle, "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" 1 John 5:5. Would the knowledge of the Son of God be connected with Bethel?

J.T. Yes. He is over the house.

Ques. Would it be correct to say that in the measure in which we are in the enjoyment and practical gain of the house of God, we are conscious of the power of God? I was thinking of Psalm 36 and 37. They are abundantly satisfied with the fatness of God's house, and then they trust in the Lord, delight in Him, commit their way to Him, and rest in Him. The soul seems to be conscious of the power and victory of God.

J.T. Yes, and then we take account of the kind of way it comes. The people of God march round Jericho morning by morning -- a most unheard of procedure in military matters, ridicule attached to it: but it is the manner of the power of God in overthrowing the world. They march round day by day blowing with the trumpets, "That the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us", 2 Corinthians 4:7. Had they used dynamite, as men do, or battering rams, and all that paraphernalia, the excellency of the power would have been of themselves. There is nothing to exalt the flesh in God's procedure. The walls fall down flat, through the power of God. That is the lesson of Jericho; but that is not all. Death has to be overcome. Not only have we to understand the overthrow of the world: many of us may have left the world, and perhaps overcome it -- but we are afraid of death. Colossians meets that: "ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead", Colossians 2:12. That is another lesson.

Rem. Jezebel is not in view here, but she is not dead yet; this conflict is deeper.

J.T. Yes, she is in the distance, so to speak. This is a matter that comes in when the time of ascension is in view, it is a deeper thing than we have had before. The chapters of the first book which we have had before us, relate more to what is public in christendom, the great sphere of profession that belongs to God, and in which He is operating through most extraordinary instruments. But here we come to the inner thing, to what is wholly spiritual, seen in Elisha, and all is in the light of the ascension, to fit us for it; and not simply that, but to fit us to hold the ground here pending that time, so that there might be a testimony, however short, whether it be days or months or years. God is set on the testimony. The enemy flourishes himself, but seeing the Lord in the assembly is open to us. Elisha is with Elijah and cleaving to him, as it says, of

the believers at Antioch, that "with purpose of heart to abide with the Lord".

Ques. Is faith more characteristic of Colossians than power, and power more connected with Ephesians?

J.T. The people went over Jordan on dry ground. The type in Joshua, of Colossians 2, is to show the power of Christ in death, that He is concerned about your going over; that is the thought in that type. The people were in the land before the ark, which is a remarkable thing. The point being, not that Christ goes to heaven, but that He holds back the forces of death till we go over. The ark is in the bed of the Jordan, till all the saints go over. This passage enters into that, but Elijah is going the reverse way here, he is going out of the land.

Ques. What would be the thought in Elisha re-crossing the Jordan?

J.T. The first crossing is Christ Himself taking us over.

Rem. For Jordan is our death with Him.

J.T. But you cross Jordan by yourself. Elijah wrapped his mantle together. I think it is the whole power entirely used: the mantle denotes the person, what he is; that is, of course what Christ is. Christ is not a formation, the believer is a formation, but Christ is a divine Person, He is the Son of God. The power is all there, "the exceeding greatness" of the divine power is there. The wrapping together accentuates the force. Elisha does not do that, he just uses the mantle, without anything being said about wrapping it together. In fact, it would have been unseemly for him to have done that. Elijah wraps it together, that is, he gives it all its force -- the figure is of a divine Person coming into death.

Ques. Why does Elijah say constantly, "Abide here"?

J.T. It is to test the heart. You might say, 'The Lord told me to stay'. Sometimes circumstances indicate

that you may legitimately take a certain course, and accordingly you justify yourself in taking it, whereas undivided consideration for the Lord and His interests would lead otherwise. Thus your heart is exposed. For instance, Balaam made a pretentious speech, he would not go without the Lord's commandment; but all the time he wanted to go, he "loved the reward of unrighteousness", and God knew that. He would go, and so God said, "Go", and he went; but God met him and sought to slay him. So Elisha's saying, "I will not leave thee" means he would not be diverted; he goes the whole way, and he gets the fullest blessing.

Ques. Is that why at the Jordan we get three times over, "They two"? How that emphasises the identification of Elijah with Elisha!

J.T. Yes, and "they went on, and talked", a most beautiful thought growing out of determination to be with the Lord.

P.L. Do you get the thought in "part with me", and then the wonderful talking afterwards in John 13 and onward?

J.T. Yes. They "went on, and talked". What holy converse! It is well worth while going the whole way!

Rem. Three times Elisha states he will not leave Elijah, then in verse 9, Elijah says he will be taken away from him, not that he will leave him: then there are the chariot and horses of fire that part them asunder.

J.T. Yes. "Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken away from thee". I think that the difficulty generally, and one might almost say, always, is, that we do not go all the way, we do not go on to perfection. We stop at Bethel perhaps, or some place where there is a bit of distinction. Going over Jordan takes me out of the world altogether.

Ques. If we go the whole way, we are confirmed so that Elijah can go with Elisha?

J.T. Yes; and as we get over Jordan there is holy

converse; as we might say, communing on equal terms. It is the Colossian position really. "I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me". That is a fine thought, "A double portion of thy spirit", not "the Spirit". Of course typically it is the Holy Spirit, but it is "thy spirit"; he says, "Let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me". He says, 'I am so taken up with that Person, I want His spirit' -- it is "the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ". I want His spirit, but a double portion of it. It brings out the great appreciation Elisha had of his master, of Elijah; that typifies the great appreciation the saint has who has come to know Jesus, as of Him and of His Spirit. You want the Spirit of that Man, you want it in abundance -- a double portion -- and where that is, no power can resist you.

Ques. Would it be right to connect Philippians 3 with this? When Paul speaks of suffering the loss of all things, he passed through Jericho. Then he speaks of pursuing, if by any means he might "arrive at the resurrection from among the dead".

J.T. That is the point -- to attain to it in your soul, not simply to hold the doctrine of it, but to know it "through faith of the working of God, who raised him from among the dead" -- it is that power.

Ques. "The excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord". Is that the double portion of His spirit?

J.T. Quite so, "Not I, but Christ". But then he would come out in the spirit of Christ, and that is what the Lord had in mind in breathing into His disciples. They valued the Lord, they were glad when they saw Him: then He says, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

Ques. It says, "if any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him", Romans 8:9. Is that the same Spirit, not the Holy Spirit exactly?

J.T. I think so, it is the Spirit of Christ. His Spirit would be the Holy Spirit for us, but it is more the character that is in view. This is the great type here of the coming down of the Spirit as establishing

christianity, but I think it is important to see that Elisha is a man who is taken up with his master -- he says, "thy spirit".

Rem. In the conversation, you have the ministry of one who is with the Lord, then the double portion of the Spirit would give force to the application.

J.T. Quite so. You want to come out in this spirit. Philippians is full of the filling out of this -- "the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", Philippians 1:19.

Ques. Do you not think we help each other more by the kind of spirit that governs us than by what we say?

J.T. I think so, so you have the idea of showing -- "Show thyself to Ahab". This is the kind of thing he saw.

Rem. I was thinking of what he says to Philemon, "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit".

J.T. Yes. Then verse 11 says, "And it came to pass as they went on, and talked, that behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire; and they parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into the heavens". They did not want to part, the position is, they are talking, they were in holy converse! It was the power of God that separated them; it is what God is doing, it is very suitable. God had come in here, it is the rights of God in this setting -- He was parted -- it was not his own action, it was a question of the power of God.

P.L. So with Paul and the disciples, in one instance they tore themselves away.

J.T. Quite so, they did not want to be parted. Nor did the saints at Antioch wish Paul and Barnabas to leave -- they "let them go". It is a question of God, it is right that God should always come in in regard to Christ, and the lovers of God allow that. It is a question of what God does.

Ques. In connection with verse 12, is the double

portion of Elijah's spirit known in our getting an apprehension of the chariot of fire and the horsemen thereof as they marked Elijah's ministry?

J.T. "If thou see me when I am taken from thee ..." It is a matter of seeing him in the manner in which he is taken from him. In the Lord's case they saw Him go up, and the men said to them, "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven", Acts 1:11. I suppose the seeing Him go, seeing Him parted and going, involves light as to the manner of ascension: the message through Mary was, "I ascend". We get the idea in our souls of going up -- the manner of it.

THE ASSEMBLY, GOD'S OWN SPHERE

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3; Exodus 19:16; Exodus 40:34, 35

J.T. What was in one's mind was that the assembly, according to the verses in 1 Corinthians, is an area which God claims -- "the assembly of God". The verses in Exodus were suggested to confirm the principle -- God covering the mount with a cloud, as if He would use it for the time, as His territory. Then He covers the tabernacle with a cloud, thus carrying on the thought, and fills the tabernacle with His glory. It seems as if that thought ought to engage us profitably.

H.B. That is the sphere where God has rights.

J.T. That is what I thought, and where man, as such, cannot intrude with impunity. The idea was asserted as the Lord was about to introduce His supper at the last passover. He sent His disciples into the city to prepare the passover, and a man was to meet them, and they were to say to the master of the house, "The teacher says to thee, Where is the guest-chamber where I may eat the passover with my disciples? And he will shew you a large upper room furnished", Luke 22:11 - 12. That is, the Lord's right is owned there, which is the thought that runs through these Scriptures. Later, as He arose from the dead, He entered where the disciples were, without any question as to His rights -- He entered as having rights there -- and found conditions suitable (at least as John gives us the facts), so that He could fill the sphere.

H.B. Would you say one of the earliest assembly features on our part would be the recognition of His rights, as with the master in that house?

J.T. I think that is right. It works out in various ways, but particularly now, we might say, in the exclusion of man's thoughts and doings in the assembly.

P.L. Does Mark emphasise that -- "my guest-chamber", chapter 14: 14?

J.T. I thought of that; that the Lord stresses, according to Mark's account, His rights in the place. There must have been some basis in the man's mind in his knowledge of the Lord, from the Lord's assertion that the guest-chamber was His; and we know well enough through the gospel the basis of the Lord's assertion of His rights to us; the epistle to the Romans is to bring out the divine rights in believers, laying the basis for 1 Corinthians.

W.C.G. Would the guest-chamber suggest the tabernacle rather than the mount?

J.T. Yes. The whole circumstances on the mount were in keeping with what was then in mind. We have that noted in Hebrews, the kind of mount it was; it was not the mount we come to as stated there, but nevertheless there were principles in it that apply. It is the mount of God's rights, and He asserts, by the presence of the cloud covering it, that it is His area which is not to be interfered with.

P.L. Would you attribute importance to the fact that it was on the third day when it was morning? Does that refer to resurrection? Moses said to the people, "be ready for the third day".

J.T. Just so. In the earlier part of the chapter before we get this, it is mentioned that it was the third month after they left Egypt, and after they had passed Rephidim. The battle of Rephidim means the conflict that enters into a believer's soul as he recognises the Spirit. So that the idea of Rephidim enters into this chapter peculiarly, referring to a believer's experience with God; and morning, of course, would bear on it too. Then "it came to pass on the third day, when it was morning, that there were thunders and lightnings and a heavy cloud on the mountain, and the sound of the trumpet exceeding loud". God was asserting His rights, and man should not interfere.

P.L. Does that promote exclusiveness in relation to those who are in the light of the assembly?

J.T. That is what I thought we might get to. If it is God's sphere, He must rule in it and determine the principles that are to govern it, and the stranger that comes nigh, must be put to death, so to speak. That is, God refuses man's will and thoughts, in the assembly.

P.L. King Uzziah presumed on the sphere of God's rights; but in the year that he died Isaiah saw the Lord in His holy temple, taking possession of it in His rights (Isaiah 6).

J.T. Quite so, the seraphim asserting God's holiness. Then the prophet's acknowledgment of his lips being unclean. If we went through the process of Isaiah 6, we should not presume in the assembly, with our own thoughts.

Ques. It would perhaps help us if you would say in a few words what you understand the assembly to be. Some of us know the term well, but we may not understand its true meaning.

J.T. 1 Corinthians has its own way of speaking of it; that is what is in mind at the moment. It is the assembly in a town or city, the aggregate of all believers in any given place, coming under the authority of God and recognising the Spirit. That is how it is viewed in 1 Corinthians; and it is called in verse 2 "the assembly of God"; that in which He has His rights, and in which they are acknowledged too. In another view, the assembly is the aggregate of all believers on the earth at any given time: and still another view is, that it is the aggregate of all believers from Pentecost until the coming of the Lord: this last is seen in the heavenly city (Revelation 21).

E.G. In connection with the bread, would you include all believers on the earth at a certain time? "We being many, are one loaf", 1 Corinthians 10:17.

J.T. That is right. The "we" is general in Corinthians: "ye" is usually local.

Ques. What is involved in the thought of "temple" -- "ye are temple"? Is that what we are in the light of the assembly?

J.T. Yes, and it involves that we have the Spirit. "Do ye not know that ye are temple of God" which applies, without any pretension as to it, to a meeting like this. For it is not "the temple" -- it is the character of the thing, as without the article. That is the view in 1 Corinthians.

W.C.G. The verses you read in 1 Corinthians are the antitype of the trumpet call. Is not that the force of it?

J.T. You are referring to Numbers 10?

W.C.G. Yes. We are often so submerged in natural things that we forget the higher calling, so the trumpet call wakes us up to the fact that we belong to God's assembly.

J.T. Yes. The trumpets were made of beaten silver, which would suggest the rights of Christ in love, in redemption; and that ought to appeal to every christian, so that 1 Corinthians is a trumpet appeal to every christian, as to the divine rights over his soul. What follows in the earlier verses of 1 Corinthians 1, verses 4 - 9, is the furnishings with which God has furnished the assembly, so that it should be independent of man's natural ability; and then that God is faithful, verse 9, so that, if it is thought that we must depend on some official organisation, God assures us that He is faithful and will sustain us, and hence, that we are not obliged to leave the ground of the assembly for support under any circumstances -- for the Lord is able to "confirm you to the end, unimpeachable".

P.H. Would the faithfulness of God be seen in the pillar of the cloud in Exodus -- linking on with what you have in mind? At the end of chapter 13 it says, "And Jehovah went before their face by day in a pillar

of a cloud" Then, in chapter 14 He moved and went between the people and the Egyptians. Are those suggestions to give our hearts confidence in God as appearing in this way?

J.T. I thought that. As soon as they began to move, the pillar of cloud appears. I think it corresponds with the statement here -- "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called ...". He called Israel out of Egypt, but then they would encounter serious difficulties in moving out, so that the cloud appears as soon as they move, and, according to Exodus, it is always the guide. The ark is not mentioned as guiding, in Exodus; it is only in Numbers we get the ark; as they began to move from Sinai, the ark moves out as additional to the cloud, but the great general principle is the presence of God in the cloud, He will stand by it. So that we do not need a paid minister or a ruling convention or a hierarchy; we are independent, however poor we may seem to be, for "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord". Even before they were baptised unto Moses, they were baptised in the cloud; for the cloud was there, before they came to the Red Sea. That is to say, they had experience of its movements, firstly as going from before them, then to their rear to divide and separate the Egyptians from them; a beautiful movement of divine faithfulness and thoughtfulness. Well, they had that experience before they are asked to enter the sea: Entering the sea was a serious matter, as it appeared, but the cloud was there: they experienced the cloud before the sea, that is, they had the presence of God before death. So in the gospels, the presence of God is like the cloud; men could experience the presence of God in Jesus. Is it worth while, as knowing God in the cloud in His faithfulness, to accept death in that One in whom it is set out? That is the incentive -- so that they were all "baptised unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea", that is the positive thing -- it is worth

your while. Then, when He spreads over Sinai a thick cloud, you feel it is worth while: it is not really against us; it is prohibitive, but prohibitive in love.

A.W.R. Is the faithfulness of God seen in the thousands of those who love Him?

J.T. Exactly: we get that in the next chapter; which is one of the finest touches in Exodus, and should warn us not to minimise the numbers of the saints; there are the "thousands of Israel", but properly, the thousands of Israel are "the thousands of them that love God"; they understand the cloud. The power in the camp really lay in those who loved God. The lovers of God keep the commandments practically, they express the commandments. If we can only bring saints, or persons, into an enjoyment of the cloud, that is to say, of the presence of God, it would become worth their while to go into death, to accept the fellowship and the consequences of it.

P.L. Would you say that is prefigured in the transfiguration cloud overshadowing them, and then the voice out of the cloud saying, "This is my beloved Son: hear him"? Is that the assembly setting?

J.T. Exactly. Think of what the voice meant, and what relationships were involved in that cloud! Peter, after he got the Spirit, calls it the "excellent glory". That is really what it is; it is the presence of God. It is worth our while to accept baptism and fellowship in the presence of that, and as tasting it. A man falls down on his face in Corinth, for instance, and owns that "God is indeed amongst you" (1 Corinthians 14:25). That is what the cloud means -- it is the presence of God. Our position is not merely a question of light or special truth, but of the presence of God.

P.L. So, does Peter leave it to "our beloved brother Paul", to whom he affectionately refers, to enlarge on the meaning of that cloud and that voice?

J.T. I think so. Paul brings out the great principles of fellowship and the assembly.

Ques. The Lord calls it "my assembly" in Matthew 16 -- would you enlarge on that a little?

J.T. That enters into what we are saying. We may view it as God's assembly locally; that is, that in which God's rights are owned and asserted in any locality: we may also view it as Christ's assembly -- what will He not do with it as He has it in full control? What will He do with it, for instance, as we are together in assembly? What will He do with it if it is His? Let us recognise that it is His. Chapters 13 to 17 of John indicate to us what He will do with it: He will lead it to the Father, and He will sing praise in it. I suppose that is how He would regard it especially, as that in which He praises the Father.

E.G. How wonderful to see the way He praises the Father in the midst of the assembly!

J.T. Yes, that would be its chief value in His mind, that He could lead it in praise to the Father. We want to let the Lord have His way in it. So these verses in the last chapter of Exodus indicate that, when the glory enters, it fills the place, and that is exclusive, not only in the way of authority, but substantially; it is substantially filled, and authority, even, is shut out for the moment -- Moses could not enter, it says. The way things go on amongst us at times as we are together normally, in assembly, would incline us to ask the Lord to come and regulate and control us; because often we take the thing out of His hands and carry on as if the assembly were not His, but ours.

F.I. What you refer to in John 20 is the setting. The Lord did all that was done there.

J.T. Yes. Luke shows us, in his account, the mixed thoughts we may have, and, to that extent, we hinder the Lord; but John's account omits that -- the doors were shut, so the Lord had a free hand.

Ques. Is not the Lord asserting His claims in the assembly in Revelation, where it would seem He was not allowed His rights?

J.T. That is right. He is asserting that He has power to deal with what is contrary to us, and He does so.

W.C.G. Does Moses fill the place typically as Son over God's house in Exodus?

J.T. I think he may be so regarded, but I think it is more authority there.

W.C.G. In verse 9 the Lord says, "Lo, I will come to thee in the cloud's thick darkness, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee also for ever". I thought Moses would have a special place.

J.T. He has, as the mediator. It is a question of subjection, they should be subject to Moses. It is not to be assumed, of course, that the exclusion of Moses by the glory in chapter 40 would have any personal reference, but rather that the glory is asserting its rights. This whole domain is God's, and all else for the moment is in abeyance.

W.H.M. Is the thought of the tabernacle greater than the thought of the house? The glory of the Lord fills the tabernacle. You were speaking of the mount being a wider thought than the upper room. Is the thought of the tabernacle the greatest thought?

J.T. I suppose it is; it is that which enters into eternity; "the tabernacle of God is with men", Revelation 21:3. It is a movable state, that is to say, it is a thought that love can employ; it is a movable suggestion, it is not fixed. Love may take up a fixed position, as in Solomon's temple, but I think this refers to movableness. It begins, as we have already noted, in the cloud, with the movement from the front of Israel to the rear: it is the free hand that love would have in moving.

H.E.F. If the Lord got His place, would that lead to the bringing in of the glory, and would He then appear in a different character to us, and lead us into something further?

J.T. What you find in Exodus 40 is that everything is done according to commandment. That is to say, that firstly that side of things is completed; that enters into the order of the assembly as convened. We come together in the wilderness, where it becomes apparent that there is something there that belongs to the Lord and to God; and, I think we might say, the glory covers it from the outset. I think the position in the wilderness implies that it is according to God, and the glory covers it. There is that attaching to the assembly in the wilderness, that is, as the saints come together in assembly, that warrants the glory covering the position, and faith understands that. But then there is the additional thought in the chapter of the glory entering and filling, and that is an exclusive thought; that is, there is no room for anything else. It is God asserting His rights to the whole place, and love will say, 'Well, we will have a good time and God is to have a free hand, filling the place'. So that you are careful not to intrude with anything out of accord with that. The difficulty in our meetings is that a brother has a hymn on his mind, or he would like to say something to the Lord, but that means that I am heard, not the Lord. The thought is the Lord is to be heard, and the glory fills the place. What you find in Exodus is, the glory is the leading thought, not the ark, although the ark is there; it is in its place in chapter 40. Its function there was to contain the testimony, not yet to go forward and seek out a resting-place. The glory is the guiding thought in Exodus, the cloud. So that what should engage us, as following the Lord's supper, is the glory, the glory of the covenant, the love of God; not yet the Father, but the glory of God. The ark is not yet seen as moving, that comes in later, but the glory is the great guiding principle here, and I think there should be room made for that side. That is 2 Corinthians, where, more particularly, full scope is given for the thought of the glory, as in Exodus.

W.H.M. Every whit uttering glory in His temple -- that is your thought?

J.T. Quite so. That goes a little further, I think, for it is in the temple, but still the idea is there, the temple is not a guiding thought, it is what is inside. The glory in Exodus is not always filling the tabernacle, but it is always there as a guiding principle. So that we are contemplated at the Lord's supper in that position, before the ark is mentioned as moving at all. It is the glory that is the guiding principle.

O.G. It says "the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle". Would the glory filling be the tabernacle -- the inside thought, and its covering the tent of meeting the external position as what is of God?

J.T. That is right. The cloud is needed, for God, for the Deity, is there; God was there but enshrined in that. The believer knows He is there; and, you will notice, the movements were to be according to that. It goes on to say, "And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel journeyed in all their journeys". There is nothing about the ark here, and that is to be understood; the ark comes in later as excess, there is no prescription from the Lord as to the movements of the ark in Numbers 10 -- it is His own action, typically, His own love acting.

P.H. Will you say a little more about the glory of the covenant?

J.T. It is a wonderful thing! God has come in in Christ there, as having you in mind, as having me in mind -- that we might know His love and be in relationship with Him on that basis. That is to say, there are covenant relations, and family relations. The covenant relations enter into Exodus; the family relations are properly in the land. Now Exodus is the great starting point for the christian; whatever way you look at him in his beginnings. Exodus is his starting-point in the types. Even if it be the Lord's supper, Exodus is his

lesson-book, for the covenant, what Christ is personally, is in chapter 21. He loves His Master, and His wife, and His children. He will not go free -- that is chapter 21. Chapter 24 speaks of the voluminous character of the blood of the covenant -- the scene is full of the testimony to the love of God in Christ, the covenant love. The blood was put into basins to call attention to the volume of it. Then the blood is sprinkled on the people and on the book. So that you have the idea of covenant in great volume in chapter 24, and this is in relation to their assembling. Then in chapter 34 Moses, having gone up the second time, comes down with the glory in his face: So that Exodus is the great book for the believer in his beginnings, no matter how he is taken account of.

W.C.G. So that Exodus, like Romans, is to magnify God in our eyes -- nothing can "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".

J.T. Yes, so that we might move. In Joseph's time he secured all the people for Pharaoh: Romans secures the saints entirely for God, so that we have no rights over ourselves -- we are bought with a price. Unless young believers come to that, they are never in the assembly according to God.

Ques. Is that Romans 12?

J.T. Yes, it works out there.

Ques. Would you connect that with "sanctified in Christ Jesus"?

J.T. Yes, saints are viewed in that light.

Ques. What are we to learn from the fact that Moses could not enter when the glory filled the tabernacle?

J.T. It is God's way of asserting that the place belongs to Him. There is no reflection on Moses; he represents authority, but we do not need authority there; the glory is enough to control us.

H.B. Would you say, in that connection, we come together at the Supper in the light of authority and it

has its place at first; but there should come a time, if things are right and suitable, when the effects of authority are seen, but it is not in exercise, and then the glory fills the company?

J.T. That is the lesson to be learnt from this, but I am afraid we are very slow in it. The Lord says, 'This is My sphere', and, not only so, but He is there in power -- the glory is filling the place.

Ques. Is that on the line of our brother's question about the entering -- the Lord coming into the midst?

J.T. Well, I think the glory is in Christ, the assembling glory, but He is said to be the glory of God and the power of God, as the ark; but here, the glory is in His face, that is how it works out in Exodus 34, but then a change comes in; the idea of Moses as representing authority ceases, and the Lord is apprehended in another way. Properly speaking, if you link on Exodus with Chronicles, you get the full thought; David and Solomon fill out Exodus. You get another thought also -- you come into the idea of the Father and the Son, instead of God and Christ; and then you have all the instruction that enters into the service of God in 1 and 2 Chronicles. When you come to 2 Chronicles 5, it is not authority as in lordship, but even the priests cannot enter, all that is merely official comes to an end; that is what the presence of God entails. The glory is there, it wants full liberty, and the more I understand it, the more I am at liberty, and as the thought of officialism ceases, the liberty of the family ensues. It is delightful, if we only lay hold of it, to give the glory full scope, and let it have its way, to know the presence of God in that light.

H.E.F. Should we pass over at that point to what you refer to as family relationships?

J.T. I think if we apprehend the thought, and get to the Lord and seek to learn how to arrive at the assembly, we shall come to family relationships and enjoyment, that is what is meant; if God has full scope

in the assembly, that is what ensues, the official thought drops.

Ques. Do you think the contemplation of the Lord in John 13 to 17 will help us?

J.T. The synoptic gospels give us very little of what occurred at the institution of the Supper, they give us rather the bare facts governing the Supper, but John fills out the thing, so as to detach us from what is merely official (right in its place), and set us down with the Father. John quotes the Lord as saying, "my Father is greater than I" -- that is to give you confidence, you take your place by His side.

P.H. Do you get the suggestion of this in Exodus 33 in Joshua the son of Nun being the attendant on Moses, and then, when Moses returns to the camp, Joshua abiding in the tent? Was he, as having come under the instruction of Moses, in the good of what you are speaking of?

J.T. I think so. Joshua is there without official capacity, but he is in the tent; pretty much like Timothy in Corinth, he is a suggestion in his spirit there of what Christ is, so as to establish confidence in the saints. Joshua is presented as "a young man" who abode in the tent. That is not merely incidental, it is something laid down to be referred to later. I may find myself perfectly free in the presence of the glory without official capacity.

P.L. So we get the expression, "If Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear", 1 Corinthians 16:10.

J.T. Yes. What a blessed time they would have had if they had allowed Timothy his place in the assembly, as he came from Paul!

Ques. Is the family setting in the Father's house the highest point we can reach?

J.T. Yes, that is the counsel of God. We touch Ephesians, where He has "marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself". There

is nothing overpowering in that, and Corinthians, and Exodus, and Romans, lead us to it. So that we are to be perfectly free and at home there, without any official place; we do not need it, love does not require it; it is a family thought, and the youngest in the family may enjoy it as well as the oldest.

F.I. Is the family condition the highest, as enabling us to take up the full thought of relationship in sonship? Is it necessary for us to be at home in family conditions before we can take up the dignity of sonship in the Father's presence?

J.T. Quite so. I believe those chapters in John are leading on to that thought, that we might be fully able to take our place with the Father: so He says, "the men whom thou gavest me". God did not give Him babes, He gave Him men; that is the full thought of sonship.

Ques. At what time in our history do we first enter, or take our place in, the assembly?

J.T. I suppose you might tell that from Acts 2, "They persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". The two first thoughts are authoritative, but breaking of bread and prayers are matters of your own; these come in in their places normally; but the first great thing is to submit to authority, that I am subject.

Ques. Is that seen in the generation of the righteous? God is our righteousness, involving subjection on our part.

J.McR. There are thousands of believers who do not know there is such a thing as the assembly; are they not in it?

J.T. That is an abnormal state of things.

J.McR. But it exists.

J.T. But we have to get a right view of the truth first, and then see how 2 Timothy helps us to get into Acts 2, where we have the great outstanding position of the assembly, they "said to Peter and the other

apostles, What shall we do?" verse 37. He tells them what to do. They spoke, not only to Peter, but to the others as well, showing that the work of God in people's souls leads them to recognise authority in whomsoever it may be found. Peter is the spokesman, and tells them what to do, "and there were added in that day ..." It does not say who added them, or to what they were added; it was the normal effect of persons recognising authority. The principle is brought in of addition under certain conditions. Then it goes on to say, they persevered in that, and they were all together. There were no thousands of people who belonged to the assembly and did not know it. They knew it; they were in it by virtue of their state as recognising what was there already; for the word "added" means that what is there is recognised. Now today, as you say, there are thousands of God's people who perhaps have not heard of the assembly in the true sense, so we have to come to 2 Timothy and see how believers get out of dark and evil associations, and "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart". That is simple enough to see, and, as calling upon the Lord in this way, and following these things with them, the assembly soon comes to light in their souls.

J.McR. They would be there intelligently in the assembly, not as a congregation.

J.T. That is right. I think 2 Timothy is intended for that; to help believers today out of the authority of darkness into the realm of light.

Ques. Do we enter the assembly at new birth, or is it when we come into fellowship?

J.T. Abstractly, every believer who has the Spirit is in the assembly, but to take his place in relation to it in 2 Timothy days is another thing, and fellowship is where we touch it.

Ques. Before the movement of the ark, as guiding in Numbers 10, when the cloud is guiding in chapter 9,

the movement is connected with the commandment of the Lord.

J.T. Everything in Numbers 9 is a question of the commandment, but in Numbers 10 we have something for which there is no commandment; and that is what we are dealing with now. Love goes beyond commandment, and that is what I believe is in mind when the glory fills the place. We cannot compass that; we can compass the commandment, that is within our range; but we cannot compass the glory; the Lord is there and He is beyond us, we cannot limit Him to commandment. The more we know of God, the more free we shall be in the assembly.

Ques. The glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 4). Would that be in line with this?

J.T. That is where it begins. Exodus is the great starting-point, but then the ark comes in as holding back the forces of death, He is apprehended there. The ark is generally the more militant side, holding back the forces of death; for Numbers 10 really culminates in Joshua 3. The last stronghold of the enemy is death, and the ark is seen there in the bed of Jordan. The people are in the land before the ark leaves the bed of Jordan, for that is what is in mind, to get the people in, to get us in, and what comes into prominence after that is the old corn of the land, that is to say, not Christ as the ark, but as the One who is indigenous to heaven. You apprehend Him as belonging to heaven, as in His own realm; that is how the truth stands in the type -- "the Son of man who is in heaven".

Rem. Joshua calls it "a very, very good land" in Numbers 14.

J.T. That is gospel to us (Hebrews 4) and Joshua now shows that what would hinder my entering in is held back till I get in; so the people are over Jordan before the ark, "Following the ark" is only correct to a point; the idea is rather that the ark holds back the forces of death; and that is the position today, that we

are able to be in the assembly in spite of death -- for death still exists.

Ques. Would that be seen in John 12, where there is the filling of the house from our side? Death is rolled back, as seen in chapter 11 and every heart is centred on Christ in chapter 12. Would that be an introduction to what is expressed in the following chapters -- 13 to 17?

J.T. It is a sort of basis for the teaching that follows.

J.B. The Lord says, "A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another", John 13:34. How does that stand in relation to the Lord taking a basin and washing the disciples' feet?

J.T. It is a question of love among ourselves.

P.L. The Lord says "God ... shall glorify him immediately". That refers to the assembly as the residence of the glory; and then immediately it follows "Children, yet a little while ..."

J.T. Just so, the Lord would set them at liberty, "The Father himself has affection for you, because ye have had affection for me" -- that is the setting.

THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD

Romans 1:4; Ezekiel 39:11 - 16; Ezekiel 37:1 - 14; John 9:34 (last sentence), 35 - 38

From these scriptures I intend, by the Lord's help, to say something about His sonship, having in mind to point out that the knowledge of Him as the Son is dependent on our being in the circumstances in connection with which that knowledge is disclosed. It will be found in the Scriptures, and by experience, that, in the unfolding of the truth, each part has its own setting, and the clear apprehension of it depends on our being in that setting. Defectiveness as to the truth is largely accountable to the fact that we do not get into the circumstances in which any particular truth is disclosed.

One would illustrate this important principle by pointing out that the light of the purpose of God was disclosed to Abraham as he was in the land, not in Mesopotamia; and so the light as to God and His name was disclosed to Jacob when he was in Bethel, not in Padan; and the light as to the divine dwelling in the tabernacle was not disclosed to Israel until they were in the circumstances of it, that is, in the wilderness. One could multiply illustrations of this principle; and the principle is intended to test us as to whether, if we apprehend any truth, we are ready to move into the circumstances in which it was primarily disclosed. Christianity is not an armchair matter, it requires movement, and sometimes movement involving the most humiliating and painful experiences, but we shall always prove that these experiences and these sacrifices are worth while.

Now this principle applies peculiarly to the knowledge of the Son of God; and I have read these passages to show how the first scripture works out. It is stated there, that the Lord Jesus is "marked out Son of God

in power, ... by resurrection of the dead". Inasmuch as death is on us all, and that physical death will take place -- except the Lord comes, when what corresponds to resurrection will be necessary -- it is evident that, to reach the knowledge of Him as Son of God, it is worth one's while to accept definitely the place of death and burial. If I am to apprehend the Son of God, it is essential that I should come to death in my mind. Indeed, one might say that in a practical way the word of the psalmist, especially to those of us who are advanced in years, is always important: that we should be taught to "number our days". Where a thing has to be taught, the suggestion is that it is not taken in very readily, and people do not take in very readily the nearness of dissolution. The tendency is to put it off, whereas we are to be taught to so "number our days, that we may acquire a wise heart" (Psalm 90:12); and the greatest gain in this, I believe, is that it places us in circumstances in which, and in view of which, the Son of God was manifested.

As I learn to number my days, the thought of resurrection becomes more and more important. I do not know of anything that I desire more than to arrive at the resurrection from among the dead -- that is what the apostle had in his mind. It settles a thousand difficulties if one arrives definitely in one's soul at the resurrection from the dead: but for this one has to be, as it were, where the dead are. If one is to be taken out from among the dead, one has to be in one's mind, at least, where the dead are, and that is what I had in mind in reading from Ezekiel.

I hope to show, from John 9, that there is another side, that is, that being an outcast in this world religiously places me in circumstances to which the light of the Son of God especially applies; but if I prefer to stay with the Pharisees, the accredited religionists of the day, I shall not come into this light. I may be orthodox, and I may be taking issue with those who

have the light of the Son of God, but I shall not come into it, for it is the outcasts religiously who come into it.

The circumstances, beloved brethren, of absolute Deity are beyond our range; God makes that plain, so that to carry back the circumstances of revelation into the circumstances of absolute Deity is flying in the teeth of Scripture. The circumstances into which divine Persons have come in revelation must be left as they are presented in Scripture. We are brought into these circumstances, and I hope in a little while to show you how we are brought into them: that is, consciously brought into them; they abide, and we abide in them, as in the Son of God. But we are not introduced into the circumstances of absolute Deity: these are beyond our understanding, as it is said, "which in its own time the blessed and only Ruler shall shew, the King of those that reign, and Lord of those that exercise lordship; who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see; to whom be honour and eternal might. Amen", 1 Timothy 6:15 - 16. But then divine Persons have come into circumstances that are within our range, and the Scriptures open up to us the way into these circumstances, and no one can afford to be outside of them.

The Son of God is "marked out" we are told. This does not allude to the voice from heaven at the Jordan; it alludes to what comes into evidence in death, where death is, and where burial is, for death involves burial. So this land of Israel, spoken of in Ezekiel 39, is a territory in which unburied people are peculiarly obnoxious, even an unburied bone. It is a scripture that challenges us as to our position in a land of privilege. I am not now alluding to what it may mean prophetically; in this respect, these that were buried came from the far north. But everyone in the land of privilege has come a long way in a moral sense, and he had better go the whole way, that is to say, burial must take place.

If I am to be in the light of the knowledge of the Son of God, I must take this position, it is imperative. It is imperative for other reasons too, reasons of common decency, that I should not intrude my unburied flesh in such a sphere. It is the land of Israel here. How much uncovered flesh stalks about in the great religious area called christendom! In a certain sense, it is divine territory; there is what is more specially divine territory indeed, but, in a certain sense, the whole area of christendom is divine territory, and it is to this territory that the Apocalypse refers; God takes up His rights in regard to it in the Apocalypse. Hence the voice to us of these verses in Ezekiel 39, is to see to it that we are buried, and it is the business of each of us to see that others who profess to be christians are buried. You will all observe how minute the instruction is in this chapter: "And all the people of the land shall bury" (the "them" in verse 13, should not be there) -- it involves that all the people of the land are buriers. And then it says, "it shall be to them for renown in the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord Jehovah". This is an occupation that God would lay upon us, and it enters into the divine glory, that this service of burial should proceed. It goes on to say, "And they shall sever out men of continual employment to go through the land, who, with the passers-by, shall bury those that remain upon the face of the land, to cleanse it: at the end of seven months shall they make a search". This is not a pleasant service, but it is a most essential service, and one that God would put upon us, a service that is required, if we are to come into the clear knowledge of the Son of God. It is a service that is needed if we are to come to "the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:13. It is not the measure of the stature of the Son of God; the knowledge of the Son of God enters into the thought of full-growth, it is the great element in it, but then, there is what is knowable of the Son of God, and there

is the unknowable. It is the knowledge of what is knowable of the Son of God that enters into the full-grown thought, but if I am to come to this knowledge I must have part in these burials -- this service of burial.

I have no doubt that Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus are, in a sense, models for us; they come into view at a given time for a needed service. They were not employed by the saints as undertakers to bury the blessed body of our Lord Jesus; Joseph and Nicodemus come in at the end of John 19, and they bury the Lord Jesus. While maintaining what is due to the Lord personally, I have no doubt they set out this great principle of which I am speaking, for it is as having been buried that He was raised. They are at His grave in the evening, and Mary Magdalene is at His grave in the morning, and Peter and John -- representing two phases of the believer's position. There must be the burial if I am to come into the full knowledge of the Son of God, just as all the people of the land were enjoined to bury, according to this chapter.

Now, dear brethren, as we look round in our localities, are all the saints buried? Am I buried? -- that is the way it comes to me. I am certainly in the land of Israel, the land of privilege, but I am offensive if I am not buried. I may be nice and amiable naturally, but I am offensive spiritually if I am not buried; and moreover I am not in the light of the knowledge of the Son of God, however orthodox I may be, for it applies to me as having died and been buried. It applied to Christ too, in that sense -- "marked out Son of God in power ... by resurrection of the dead". I do not say it was His own resurrection necessarily, although that is included; it says "dead" here applying to such as Lazarus. So that, dear brethren, you can see how this applies in our localities. If I am buried myself, the next thing is to bury the brethren who are not buried. You may say, 'How can I do it?' Well, it is a

question of accepting the obligation; the acceptance of the obligation is, in a way, half the work. A man who loved his wife, said of her, "That I may bury my dead from before me" -- that was spoken of Sarah. Abraham buried her to be raised; he buried her in the cave of Machpelah; and when she is raised, there will never again be a thought of her being put out of his sight. But at the present time, there is much among us that is obnoxious. And so the details of the instruction go on here: "And the passers-by shall pass through the land, and when any seeth a man's bone, he shall set up a sign by it". I should not like to be a man labelled by the brethren as having one of my bones unburied -- maybe my head, or my feet, or my hands. A saint loyal to Christ, if he sees that, will put it out of sight; such an one is known by the spiritual, and when one comes to a locality one sees the sign -- that brother is not buried, or is only partly buried. You see how this applies in this great matter of the knowledge of the Son of God, that the real difficulty lies in the state of the brethren, in not getting into the circumstances to which this blessed truth applies.

In chapter 37 which contemplates burial, that is to say, the national burial of Israel, we see how they come into the quickening power of the Son of God. For we have two thoughts in John 5the first is that "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live" (verse 25); the second is, "all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice". The dead hearing the voice of the Son of God refers to men and women living here in this world, dead in their sins, dead God-ward, and they hear the voice of the Son of God and live. As soon as they do that, they bury themselves, that is the force of baptism -- they begin to feel things, and that is what you get here, "Our bones are dried", they say in verse 11, that is, they are feeling the state of things -- the circumstances are felt. It says, "And he said unto me, Son of man, these

bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off!" That is the feeling. One feels, dear brethren, there is a want of depth in the saints, a want of feeling about things; there is shallowness. Hezekiah turned his face to the wall, he says, as it were, 'I have come to an impassable point, I can get no further', and he wept sore, and God heard him and saw his tears. It is in coming into the circumstances to which the truth applies, that I come into the truth. And so here, "Our bones are dried", they said, "we are cut off!"; but God says, 'I have got power', it is the power of the Son of God.

And so the prophet is taken round about: an important service to go all round the saints in the localities, if one may speak simply. One comes to a well-known city, and one questions in one's heart, 'Is there any movement here? Is there any progress at all? How are the saints progressing?' The prophet is to go all round the bones -- 'Oh', he says, 'these bones are very dry'. You find that often in meetings: the saints are very dry. Well, what is needed now is power in the ministry, "Prophesy over these bones". The brethren may be dry, but then they are ready to listen, and that is a great matter -- the numbers who so often come together now show that the brethren are ready to listen. So he prophesied to the bones, and presently there is a rustling and the bones come together, bone to its bone. One saint lives in fine circumstances; another lives in poor circumstances: how will bone come to bone? "The bones came together", it says, "bone to its bone". I am speaking now very simply and plainly -- bone comes to its bone, none is out of place; there are no malformations in this great operation of God. You have one whole -- the idea of the framework of the bones gives a whole idea; like the passover lamb, a bone of which was not to be broken; that is, it is a whole idea.

But then, the valley of dry bones is a conglomerate idea, it is not the divine thought; it shows the terrible devastation of death; but in such a devastation, which makes the accomplishment of the counsels of God a necessity, He can call bone to its bone. The knowledge of resurrection is a wonderful thing! it is a question of the power of God, that He can bring bone to bone. No bone will be out of place. Then the sinews and the flesh came on them; sinews will be needed as means of action, concerted action; and the flesh comes on them to give form and fulness; and then skin, that is to say, the basis of beautification. How can we reach this point aside from taking the place of death and burial? It is that that gives God a free hand to bring bone to his bone, and to give sinews, and to bring up the flesh, and all the beautification that clothes the skin for God. Applying it to ourselves, we arrive by the power of God at the most wonderful formation in the universe, that is, the assembly. So that you see the importance of what I am saying, if we are to arrive at the knowledge of the Son of God; we must accept in our minds the place of death and burial, which implies the removal of all that would hinder bone coming to bone so that the whole thought of God should be reached, then the sinews and the flesh and skin coming upon them, involving form and general beautification: there is something pleasing to God by His own power.

Having said all that about death and resurrection, one can dwell on the thought of the Son of God, how He is in the minds of the saints marked out in power by resurrection of the dead. I believe that is where the testimony lies, where the truth of the assembly is reached in the knowledge of the Son of God -- His person. Orthodoxy has no certainty in it, for the certainty is in the thing being brought to our attention in a marked way in the Lord's Person, He has done it, we have heard His voice, He has made us to live; He is in our souls in that way; He is thus known in our

souls as the Son of God. It is a certainty, nobody can take it away from us. He is "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead".

The other side of this matter is excommunication from the religious organisations of this world. John 9 brings out that faithful testimony rendered, as one has light, leads to one's being cast out. If I remain in the religious system, it is just by accommodation; if I am there as a christian, I am accommodating error. The parents of this man knew that, if they confessed Jesus to be the Christ, they would be excommunicated. It is poor loyalty to Christ to stay where He is rejected; loyalty is in being faithful to the light you have, to testify to it clearly, and you will have either to withdraw or they will force you out. Here the man is forced out, they excommunicated him; and all such excommunications are recorded in heaven! Excommunications of this kind, because of faithfulness to Christ, are items of the greatest interest in heaven. And the Lord heard it; it was no accident that He heard it; it is put as if it were a matter of course -- "Jesus heard that they had cast him out". His excommunication brought the man into accord with Christ, for He is viewed in John's gospel as rejected from the outset. The Lord would say to him in effect, 'I know well the feelings you have, but you are now in circumstances to which the truth relative to Me as the Son of God applies. You will now come into that truth, you will now enjoy it: you will know more than the ancients; you will know more about it than the theologians: you will know what it is as in My company'. Believers like this man are those who understand the truth of the Son of God.

It is to be noted that Peter had the knowledge of Christ as Son of God before Paul was converted, but you never hear of him speaking of it in his preaching. Peter thus illustrates how the early servants of God could keep a feature of the truth until the time for it

arrives. It applied to a certain condition; the saints being cut off from their national moorings and the acceptance of death and burial were necessary. The fulness of all these thoughts awaited Israel's complete rejection of the early believers; and Peter kept this precious light in his soul, as far as the record goes, that Jesus was the Son of God; saying nothing about it in his public addresses, but when Paul comes in, he begins to speak about it at once. Peter was not commissioned to preach that Jesus was the Son of God: Paul was. He says, God who "called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings among the nations". That was the thought of God; but it awaited the suitable circumstances in the history of the testimony, and a suitable vessel to announce it. So that we learn from the apostles how to keep things hidden in our souls, to learn from Mary, the mother of our Lord, how to become treasuries. In the pattern David had of the house, there were treasuries, that is to say, persons who can keep things and bring them forth at the suited time, so that they shine in their own splendour. The idea of a jewel is not only what it is in itself, but in its setting; and the setting of the truth of the Son of God is seen in Paul.

In order to have that precious truth, the knowledge of the Son of God, it is worth while accepting death, accepting burial, and accepting excommunication, so that you might be in it, and as in it, you know it, and it cannot be taken away from you! There are knowable things about that Person, and there are unknowable things, and you will not attempt to intrude on what is unknowable, but you will seek to understand fully what is knowable. What is knowable about the Son of God enters, as I have said, into my arriving at "the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ".

May God bless the thoughts to us.

FRIENDSHIP TO CHRIST

Luke 8:38, 39; 2 Samuel 15:31 - 37

These scriptures serve to instruct us as to how the Lord disposes of us in view of His testimony and service; how He disposes of each of us, and how He disposes of us as viewed collectively; for it is to be remembered that the saints are what He has under His hand now. Whatever there is, small or great, the Lord will dispose of it wisely; in doing so He takes full account of the apparent overwhelming odds against us, such odds as would tend to terrify us and render us helpless, aside from faith. But obedience in the believer qualifies him as available to the Lord; he is, as it were, one of those numbered according to the book of Numbers, being "twenty years and upward, all that go forth to military service".

What I have to say this evening is about military service, and the Lord, whether we be few or many, disposes of us with infinite wisdom, and with certainty of success. Nothing is more stimulating in warfare than the certainty of success, of victory, as it is said, "thanks to God", not, who has given us the victory, or who will give us the victory, but, "who gives us the victory", 1 Corinthians 15:57. It is characteristic. So that no one need be faint-hearted in relation to the warfare. The type provides for any faint-hearted people; they are to go home, because they tend to interfere with the courage of the others (Deuteronomy 20:8). Then again, in the case of Gideon's army (Judges 7), it was reduced from thirty-three thousand to three hundred according to the test given of the lapping of the water, and the three hundred who did so were assured of victory. "Victory", indeed, ought to be on the banner of the christian. There is nothing else in mind. Faith knows nothing else. But still, there are the throes of anxiety, and the Lord would have it so, lest we might become

self-confident: self-confidence makes for defeat. You will remember that in the wilderness after Israel declined to go into the land -- they despised the pleasant land -- they said, "Here are we, and we will go up". They would attempt it in their own strength, but they were defeated.

The man in Luke, in the country of the Gadarenes, is a type of what I am speaking of. The Lord had been there and had healed that man, it was a most remarkable case, and yet the inhabitants of the place urged the Lord to leave. The man, too, out of whom the demons were gone "besought him that he might be with him", and were we to consult our own natural hearts we would say, 'Let the man go, too. Such people do not deserve to have him stay amongst them, he would be overwhelmed by them'. But the Lord knew his capabilities, and instead of allowing him to cross the sea the Lord instructs him to go back to his house, and tell what great things God had done for him. He begged Jesus to let him go with Him, not that he dreaded being left behind, but rather because He so loved Jesus. If it were because he dreaded to remain, doubtless the Lord would have allowed him to go with Him, but there is no suggestion of cowardice in the man; he represents a man occupying an outpost, a lone man. There is not the slightest evidence that he was at any disadvantage as left there; he testified alone in that apparently barren soil, among a community so hostile to Jesus that they would prefer the man with the demons in him to Jesus.

Now, from the passage in 2 Samuel, I want to show you how, typically, the Lord disposes of His forces, not one man alone, but a number of persons, but I want particularly to dwell upon Hushai, for the reason that he is specifically called "David's friend". He is said to be that when David was in power, before there was any thought of his ejection from his capital by his son Absalom. It might be assumed that it would pay to be a friend of David when he was in power, no

doubt it did, but a true friend is not looking for material gain; he is looking for company, for companionship, that is what a friend seeks. And that was Hushai. He was as true a friend to David when he ascended Olivet in rejection, as when he was in power on his throne. And now is the time, beloved brethren, for this kind of friendship. All will assume, no doubt, to be friends of Christ by and by when He comes forth out of heaven; as it is said, in Revelation 19, "behold a white horse, and one sitting on it", with the armies of heaven following Him, with every mark of power, and whose name is called "The Word of God". His enemies then will have been put under His feet. He will reign universally. There will, doubtless, be secret enemies even then, because some will feign obedience to Christ, but, generally, all will profess friendship to Jesus.

Now is the time, therefore, for the kind of friendship that we see in Hushai in 2 Samuel 15. He is specifically called "David's friend", and he came into the city as Absalom came in: "and Hushai David's friend came into the city, and Absalom came into Jerusalem", verse 37. It may be that there is someone here who has not as yet taken up his place in the city as Hushai did. You may have been thinking about it, and you may have weighed the possible consequences. You may have thought, as it were, Absalom will have a large army there; he will be king and dominate the city; David will be outside in rejection. That is just the position today. Fellowship implies that Christ is rejected in this world; that is what it means. It may be there is somebody that says, 'Well, I cannot quite face that, the odds seem too great'. To join Absalom, and to be on his side, is, of course, another matter; but to be there in loyalty of heart to David is a most dangerous undertaking. That is how many regard it, and they hold back.

The Lord is in heaven and, though He is rejected here, there is not the faintest thought of defeat in regard

of any undertaking of His. David says to Zadok, "Carry back the ark of God into the city". You say, 'That is a most dangerous thing, to put the ark within the range of Absalom'. But no, the ark had been in even worse hands before; it had been in Philistine hands; the five lords had it, and without any protection at all, with not a priest to look after it, not a levite to carry it! But victory marked it! It returned to its own land. You will remember the most touching incident of those milch kine drawing the cart with that ark upon it. Dagon had fallen before it, and now the power of the Philistine nation was brought down; they had to send it away. The presence of the ark here is the guarantee of the overthrow of this world. Let us understand that. You say the ark is in heaven. No, it is not in heaven; that is not the idea. It will appear in heaven by and by (Revelation 11:19), but the present position of it is here. It is a question of the testimony, it is the ark of the testimony. That is to say, it is Christ here in the hearts of His people, and the presence of Christ in His people is the guarantee for the overthrow of this world. Let no one make any mistake; it is sure victory! So the Philistine lords had to send away the ark, and send it away with sacrifice too. It is the power of God.

David sends the ark back again into the city, and presently he is at the summit in his rejection. Well, you say, what are these poor people anyway? They have neither creed nor priest, nor cathedral. Who are they, and what have they? Well, I will tell you what they have. They have moral superiority, as keeping the commandments of God and cherishing the ark of God, feeling things as they are in this world, as David did, for he wept and went up barefoot upon the sides of Olivet; but when he got to the summit he was able to worship. There was no failing in his strength. He was in moral superiority, and he worshipped God. That is the position. And presently Hushai comes to

him in a like state; he is according to David. Every true friend of David, every true friend of Christ, seeks to be according to Christ. He says to the disciples, "Ye are my friends if ye practise whatever I command you"; and Hushai was one of these; he made no complaint when David sent him back into the city.

David had just heard that Ahithophel had joined the conspirators. That is to say, the man of greatest repute for wisdom had taken sides against David. Is there not today such a situation as that? The great sources of human wisdom are all against Christ, every one of them. The most renowned of the universities are against Him, and the Lord is not indifferent to this. They have great power. Modernism is the product of these institutions, and it is in direct opposition to Christ. That is what Ahithophel represents; he was renowned for his wisdom. At one time Ahithophel was amongst David's officers as his counsellor; but he is not that now, he has altered his position, and that makes the difference. It is just then that Hushai comes into view. Who is Hushai? The simplest christian, if he loves Christ; the weakest, or the youngest, or the oldest, if he is a friend of Christ; that is the one. The Lord would enlist you. He has a right to you. He has a right to conscript you, for that is the principle of service, it is conscription. So David says, 'If you go with me you will be a burden; if you go back to the city, you will serve me'. You will understand, it is not that he was not with David in spirit, for he was. He was a lover of David, but his position was to be in the city.

Now, in speaking thus, if I may refer to the conditions of the brethren in this State, what Absalom represents is peculiarly seen here. There is the most ancient and renowned religious institution predominant, and the saints have to do with it. It is a question of whether we are friends of Christ. It is no question of taking a sword now, but it is a question of friendship to Christ, and the friends of Christ are wise, for "the

foolishness of God is wiser than men", and this is seen in the saints. See how foolish that sister is! She might have shone in this world. Well, suppose she declines to shine in this world for a few years, and then she seems to go down like the setting sun -- the sun rises again, it "hasteth to its place where it ariseth", to shine again. The sun rises to shine again, if the christian goes down in the testimony, in loyalty to Christ, he hastens back to his place to shine; the Lord will bring him back again to shine where he suffered. Look at that young man. What is he going to be? He could have shone in the law, or in politics, or in the church, even in the religious world, but look where he is! Hidden away! That is how matters stand outwardly. But the Lord is saying to you, I want to place you in a certain position. The wisdom that is shining in you is regarded as folly in this world: God's wisdom is foolishness to men. The world says, it is the height of folly for you to pursue that course. But you are a friend of Christ, and He says, I have a place for you, a place in the counsels of God, also a place here in the testimony.

I am speaking of the latter particularly, and if you take up that position, you will tend to upset the whole scheme of Absalom. You say, That is impossible; but it is not impossible. You are necessary to the Lord's organisation, for that is what you get in this scripture. David set up an organisation in the midst of Jerusalem which was the undoing and overthrow of Absalom. Just a handful, two priests and Hushai, and two young men in the city of Jerusalem, Hushai, the special man amongst them, the friend of David, I urge that on you. John says, in writing to Gaius, "Greet the friends by name", 3 John 14. Every friend has a name. They are most valuable. Only one of these men is called a friend of David, but all those mentioned come under that head. Hushai is a wise man. The friendship of Christ works out in wisdom. And so David says to him here, "If thou passest on with me, thou wilt be a burden to

me; but if thou return to the city, and say to Absalom, I will be thy servant, O king; as I have been thy father's servant hitherto, so now will I be thy servant, then mayest thou for me defeat the counsel of Ahithophel", (verses 33, 34).

When the Lord entered Gethsemane the greatest conflict ever entered into by man took place. Satan approached with all his forces, and the Lord disposes of His disciples; He says to them, "Sit here until I go away and pray yonder". He disposes of what was under His hand. And the Lord was facing the greatest combination of forces that could be against Him; Satan himself was there; as the Lord says, "the ruler of the world comes"; he was coming, and the Lord disposes of His forces. Well now, where am I in this disposing of the forces? Am I going to say, Lord, I am not equal to this, or, Am I going to stand by? Now is the hour; there will never be another like it. We are in the closing moments, and the Lord is disposing of His forces, and in doing so He is taking account of what we have to contend with; and we have to contend with forces such as did not exist earlier, we are in perilous times.

David knew that Ahithophel would give such counsel to Absalom as might damage him. And so here in this city, there are peculiar forces, and the Lord would prepare us for them. Hushai would defeat Ahithophel's counsel as in the city. He went back, and as he entered the city Absalom entered it. That is to say, the battle is on! Why should the Spirit of God record it in this way? Hushai enters the city before Absalom. He has got an advantage. The Lord will never allow the enemy to get any advantage over His own. You may say, 'My circumstances hinder me, my family relations or my business relations, for I have to earn my living -- they seem to be against me'. Well, the question is, Are they God's ordering, or are they your own choice? If they are God's ordering, they are defeating the devil: that is the position. If I am in the position assigned to me

by God's will, however it may seem to be against me, it will turn out to be for me. Indeed, the apostle says, "all things work together for good to those who love God", Romans 8:28. It may be you do not think you love God. It is very comforting to me that at the foot of Sinai God speaks about the "thousands of them that love" Him -- the thousands of them! Some of them might say, I do not know that I love God. Well, the test is, Are you doing the will of God? Are you disposed to do the will of God? Are you resolved to do the will of God? That is the test. The Lord says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments", and again, "he that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me". So that any disposition to keep the commandments of God, to be obedient, is an evidence of love; you are amongst the thousands of them that love God. Outward conditions may seem against you, but in due course you will look back on your history and say, God helped me by this or in that, I see this now, but I did not see it then, and I did this because I loved Him. There is not a doubt that every item is recorded, debited or credited, in the book of God, and the lovers of Christ will all come out victorious, the credit balance will always be there. God knows how to value what is done for Him. He gives us credit for much that we do not value. I say this for your comfort. But then the point is the disposition to take orders from the Lord, and to occupy the position assigned to me without questioning. That is what the man, out of whom the demons had been cast, did; he made no objection to the Lord's directions; nor did Hushai here.

But then Hushai was not to be alone in Jerusalem, he was to have companionship. What was their bond? Their bond was love for David. That is our bond. I do not know of anything really more precious than that -- the bond of christians in love for Christ. If I love the Lord and you love the Lord, and we are set here in this dark world, we have a common bond, the

bond of perfectness -- love. However few we are, we have the bond of perfectness.

So the time comes when Absalom calls for a counsellor, and Ahithophel was asked to give counsel, and from a military point of view his counsel was good, from a human point of view it was right, but it did not prevail. It was rejected, and Ahithophel hanged himself. That indicates what is going to happen to all that he stands for, in the way of worldly wisdom and worldly combination, at the present time. It will come to an ignominious end; whereas the simplest christian, who has taken sides with Christ as one of His friends, will come out victoriously, will come out gloriously. Now, is there not a call from the Lord to us now, beloved, to come into the city in the sense in which I am speaking of it? In truth it turned out to be a city within a city. Absalom had the outer, external thing, as the religious world has today, dominated by what he represents, but within that, hidden away, there was another city, and this inner city overthrows the external city. That is what is going to happen, dear brethren.

When the Lord converted Saul, He said to him, "enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do", Acts 9:6. You say, Is He sending him to the mayor of the city, or to the aldermen of Damascus? He is not sending him to any such persons. No, they are not in the Lord's reckoning at all in that sense, but He is, nevertheless, sending him into the city, "Enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". The "city" I may liken to the great religious area today; but there is a city within it, hidden away, which is allowed to be its undoing.

What was in Damascus? Well, there is a man named Ananias in that city. The Lord knew where he lived. He was not a great man in Damascus, he had no part whatever in the government of Damascus. There was another man who lived in a street called Straight, and

the Lord knew the name of that street, and the number. He knows where His people reside. This man, and those like him in the city, were the inner thing, just as Hushai and Abiathar and Zadok and the young men were, in the city of Jerusalem. There was an inner thing in Jerusalem that was really an organisation of David, as much as any organisation under him had been. And so there is today an inner thing, the secret organisation of Christ; it is a city within a city. And so Saul is led into the city -- blind. He is led to the spot where he can get light, instruction and general furnishings, where he can be qualified to go out into the outer city and bear witness. That is the position; the Lord had an organisation. Ananias was part of it, and the man in the street called Straight was part of it, and many others, and these men furnished Paul with what he needed so that he might go into the outer city, into Absalom's city, as it were, and bear testimony. And he did. His eyes were opened, and he took food and got strength, and he was baptised and got the Holy Spirit, and preached Jesus as the Son of God. That was in the public city, in the synagogue. That is, we bear testimony publicly as we are furnished secretly.

Elijah, if you will remember, took a journey with Elisha, before Elijah was caught up into heaven. They started from Gilgal, and went to Bethel, and from Bethel to Jericho, and from Jericho to Jordan. They crossed the Jordan, the power of God drove it back and they went over; and they talked and walked on the other side of the Jordan. Then Elijah is caught up to heaven, and as he went up to heaven his mantle fell, and Elisha takes that mantle. He had asked Elijah for a double portion of his spirit, and he got it, and he makes the return journey. All this is secret; Samaria knew nothing of it. That is what some of us here have to do now -- to make the return journey. We have been on the one line, getting objective truth, but now we want to make the return journey, to prove the power

of God over the world -- to go to Bethel and go to Carmel; Elisha went from Bethel to Carmel. That was not in the first journey, it was in his return journey. Carmel was where Elijah gained his great victory over the prophets of Baal; one of the most signal victories recorded by one man; it was what one man did against eight hundred and fifty, for there were two companies of false prophets. Elisha would fill his lungs, as we ought to, with the atmosphere of Carmel. There is a lesson to be learned in mount Carmel that you do not learn elsewhere. But from Carmel he goes into Samaria; that is where Ahab was, and where Jezebel was, I am not going to speak of Jezebel now. You know about her. We have to bear testimony where she is, and she represents all the wisdom of the world. As I was saying, there is no institution like that which she represents. It is the most ancient now, and in all its ramifications it is augmented in every possible way by the wisdom of this world, and that is where we have to serve, especially in this country. Elisha went deliberately from Carmel down to Samaria, and that is where he testified, and that is where we are called to testify; and he was eminently successful.

Hushai was eminently successful in a similar position; he gave counsel that overthrew the counsel of the wisest man of his day; the man with the greatest reputation for wisdom was overthrown. And so may the weakest of us, for I would say to the youngest present, the foolishness of God in you -- for that is where it is seen -- is said to be wiser than men, and the weakness of God, which is in you, is stronger than men. As Paul says, "When I am weak, then I am powerful". So that there is every encouragement to come into the city, as it were, however hostile it seems to be, or however impossible the position appears, for certain victory awaits us. The Lord would call upon us, as His friends, "Ye are my friends", He says, "if ye practise whatever I command you". We cannot afford

to be wanting in friendship to Christ. The Lord grant that we may be here as His companions, to know what He is to us, and to know what we can be in friendship to Him.

VESSELS OF MERCY

Jeremiah 18:1 - 6; Romans 9:23, 24; 2 Corinthians 4:7

We closed our meeting this afternoon with a reference to the service of the levitical family, the Merarites, noting that their service had to do, typically, with the saints. They had to do with the pillars, and bars, and doors, and so forth, of the tabernacle; these representing the people of God, for the tabernacle in its earthly form as in testimony here is composed of saints -- of persons. It is said to be a figurative representation of things in the heavens (Hebrews 9:23). It is not of this creation, it is not formed of such material as is used in the wilderness. It is a great moral system in which God shines, in which God resides; which for the moment has its expression here on earth in the people of God, as set up in divine skill in relation to Christ, and in relation to one another. Hence the people of God become of peculiar interest; and the believer can see, however weak and feeble he may be, that the word for him is, "The Lord has need of it". He has a place for you, that cannot be filled by another, and so He must have you. You are of great importance in His eye.

The Scriptures are full of that thought, the Old Testament as well as the New; and the Spirit of God would engage us with it, so that we might rightly value each other; that we might not despise or disregard in any way the feeblest, the weakest, the most insignificant of God's people, even the weak brother, for whom as the apostle Paul says, "Christ died", Romans 14:15. John's gospel may be cited as setting out this thought as much as any other. Not that it is exclusive to John, but he has a way of speaking of the saints that is stimulating to love. He speaks of one "whom Jesus loved". You would like to meet that one, would you not?

You say, 'He loves us all'; well, He does, but John does not mean that when he speaks of "the disciple whom Jesus loved": he means that a certain one is singled out by the Lord as being peculiarly lovable.

John is not here now, but the Lord is not without someone like him. For instance, the Lord takes a little child and sets him by Him. Never did that little child look so beautiful as when he was set beside the Lord Jesus! You might say that the glory of Christ would eclipse whatever glory there was in the child, but no, the glory of the feeblest of us, and we are "vessels of mercy ... before prepared for glory", will not be eclipsed by the glory of Christ. We reflect His glory, in fact. So that the little child is set by the Lord, and He refers to him. In Matthew 18:2 it says, "Jesus having called a little child to him", meaning that the child was amenable to the Lord's will; he was not a wayward child, that is, not a wayward saint. He says to the disciples, "Unless ye are converted and become as little children ..." And then in verse 4 He says, "as this little child". So that the Lord has someone at all times amenable to His will, and suitable for any specific purpose that He may have in mind, so that He can point to him. Now, I can understand that every lover of Christ would aspire to that -- to be in such a state of subjection and moral beauty that the Lord can say of him, as He did in the Pharisee's house -- "Seest thou" this person? You might say, Well, if I were in other circumstances I could shine better, and be more for Christ. But here is a woman, in the most withering circumstances as far as she was concerned, a woman of the city, but the Lord turns to her, and says to Simon, "Seest thou this woman?" There was something there as corresponding to Himself that the Lord could call attention to. She illustrates a feature of the personnel of the assembly; that is, of that vessel in which God sets out His testimony at the present time. There are many features among these persons; she is one to whom

the Lord can turn and say, "Seest thou this woman?" And then He goes over the details of her service.

I mention all this, so that there might be an appeal as to it, that one might not complain of one's circumstances or assume that one could shine better in others. It is an utter mistake. If the Lord has placed you in circumstances that appear to be adverse, He intends to enhance your glory. If He has placed you in them, He will cause you to shine in them; as it is said, "Among whom ye appear as lights in the world", Philippians 2:15. "Ye appear as lights"; the allusion is to the stars. The Lord could use one star to illuminate the whole scene! How great that is! If I were to go over the ground, through Scripture, that speaks of shining, you would be affected by what is presented. For instance, Deborah says, "let them that love him be as the rising of the sun in its might", Judges 5:31. What a fine thought that is, and it is within the range of all the lovers of God! It is really a prayer, and the prayer of a woman, too. And again, it is said in Daniel, "they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse", Daniel 12:3. Now, the firmament holds the great body of luminaries, the stars. What a conception that is! That wise and righteous persons shall shine thus! You can see what enters into the personnel of the vessel of testimony, what one person may be, what a wise brother or sister may be. And then the Lord says in Matthew 13:43, "Then the righteous shall shine forth as the sun".

You can see therefore, how a few saints in a place may be very effective in their testimony, say in this city. Jehovah says to Moses, "five of you shall chase a hundred", Leviticus 26:8. That is, a few of His people under conditions suitable to Him. Now, you can see, dear brethren, what a power a few saints may be. It is a question of power there, "A hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight". Now, as you proceed on the principle of multiplication, see how comparatively few saints are needed to cope with the opposition of

a million people! As soon as we begin to reckon thus our difficulties begin to diminish, and the power and influence of the saints increases enormously. If you reckon according to that rule, if the ratio runs on like that, see what a hundred saints in a city means; for that is what God has in His mind. And if it be a question of prayer, the Lord says, "if two of you shall agree on earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 18:19. You thus can see what two praying people may accomplish.

I say all these things so as to encourage the brethren, especially in this city and State, that there may be no feeling of disheartenment, or discouragement, but a feeling of stimulation, in humble dependence, of course, but still a definite stimulation as to what God may do with us. It is a question of what we are. The great principle underlying all this, as I understand it, is in these verses in Jeremiah. Jehovah directs the prophet to go down to the potter's house; and here we have a principle of great importance as to understanding things; that is, that we are to get into the circumstances to which the things apply. The word of the Lord regarding the thing in question is to be given to the prophet in the circumstances which are in keeping with the matter, that is, in the potter's house. So we must learn what it is to go to the potter's house.

The idea of the potter's house, if we may reverently apply it to God, began very early in the history of this creation with which we have to do. We have it in the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, and the word to Jeremiah is to go to that house. It is where God began to make vessels. He made one. The Spirit of God makes much of it, but in the third chapter of the book we learn how it was marred. It says here, "the vessel ... was marred". We have not to go far, dear brethren, for that marred vessel. We can find it by the thousand in this country, and in every country. We are

conversant with it in our own experience, we know how marred we became by sin, how shapen in it. But then, Jehovah says, the potter made "another vessel".

This vessel is specially to be noted. It is also made in the potter's house. That is to say, the Lord says, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", John 5:17. God's hands were not let down as the first vessel was marred; He made another vessel. That other vessel began to take form in Abel. I do not doubt but that it took form in Adam and Eve, but they must suffer in the government of God: the other vessel must not be either of them. It must be another vessel. That other vessel began to take form in Abel, and so, right down the line of faith, as we get it in Hebrews 11, we have the formation of that vessel. And it says here, that it "seemed good to the potter". The second vessel pleased the potter, and we have not to wait long to find out what God thinks of the new vessel. Abel offers a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain. Enoch, we are told, "walked with God" by faith, and he was translated so that he should not see death, but "before his translation he has the testimony that he had pleased God". If we are to understand this new vessel, we must read down the line, and see the different features of it, for each of these men of faith in Hebrews 11 represents a certain feature of the vessel that pleases God. They all anticipated Christ, taking character from Him by faith.

As soon as faith begins to appear, Jesus is discerned; He is in view. Faith is laying hold of the divine conception, it was not yet visible to the naked eye, but it was visible to faith; and that visibility must begin with some operation of God. And what was the first operation of God? Well, we are told that He made coats of skin for Adam and Eve; that was a divine operation. The divine movement is that of which faith lays hold; faith is thus doing something that pleases God. As God is doing something that pleases Himself, faith discerns it

and appropriates it. We have to look at these suits of clothes -- these coats of skin. God is the first clothes-maker. And faith discerned that there was something in mind; someone had to suffer before those clothes could be made. You know, a great deal more occurred than is written down since God intervened in testimony. Who was that Sufferer? Abel laid hold of the thought that God gave expression to, that someone had to suffer if God was to be pleased. God was pleased to make these clothes to cover His erring creatures, but for this, someone had to suffer. Someone had suffered, and Abel saw that by faith, and that is where the new vessel began. It may have been seen very dimly in his day, but there was the idea there that faith laid hold of: that God had to be met by sacrifice, and if there is to be a sacrifice, someone has to suffer. We know that that Sufferer was Jesus.

A study of Hebrews 11 brings out to the intelligent believer the great features that go to the formation of the vessel that pleased God. The potter "made it again another vessel, as seemed good" to him. That vessel is not broken nor marred; and this leads me to Romans, where we get the vessel that God was pleased to make out of the lump; it says, "that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory, us, whom he has also called", Romans 9:23, 24. Will we put it beyond us? Is there anyone here that would put this beyond him, and say it does not include him? The apostle says, "us, whom he has also called" (verse 24). And what is that vessel? It is a vessel of mercy, fitted for glory. If I begin to look at the saints in this way, my view of them is pretty sure to be greatly altered. Their histories really antedate Adam and Abel. It says here, "that he might make known the riches of his glory upon the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory". That is a question of counsel.

Think, dear brethren, of the distance back that this

conception goes as to us! It is, "before prepared for glory", and then, even "us, whom he hath called". One would love to be able to lead the brethren to look at the saints in this way. Jehovah took great pains to give Balaam a view of them. He had recourse to enchantments in his efforts to curse Israel, but he saw that God was standing athwart his purpose (see Numbers 23 and 24). You cannot curse Israel. Israel is fixed for blessing in the purpose of God, and that fixedness is unalterable. When Balaam saw this he cast aside his enchantments. It would be well if we learned what that means; to look at the saints with an open, transparent, discriminating mind; and the more you see them from the standpoint of the vision of the Almighty, the more they will bear discrimination. It will be seen that they can bear the closest, keenest scrutiny. The nearer you get, the greater the view, and the greater the glory you will see. It was God who stood firmly by Balaam, and refused to allow him to say one word against His people. A word spoken against the saints is abomination to heaven! And God was so concerned that He would not allow one of the wickedest men spoken of in scripture to say a single word against His people. Instead of that, He causes him to say the most wonderful things about them. "The man of opened eye", the man who "seeth the vision of the Almighty", the man who, from the top of the rocks, saw them as God would have him to see them. God would say, 'Come here, and see them from this angle' -- and there they are, abiding in their tents, according to their tribes, that is, their place according to eternal purpose as formed in love. They are beautiful, they are glorious -- they are "vessels of mercy ... before prepared for glory". They include ourselves -- "us" as the apostle says, that is, all christians.

Thus, dear brethren, you can see how important it is to have a right view of each other. First, as to what even one of us may do, or two of us may do, and then

how we please God; because we are His own handiwork; and then how He delights in us, and how He would force the wickedest man to see us as He sees us. So that Balaam is forced to say the most beautiful things about Israel. Instead of cursing them as Balak intended him to do, he is blessing every time. "They are blessed", he says, Numbers 22:12. There is no repentance with God. The saints are what they are in His eternal counsels, and they will come to His thought exactly. He is the Potter and He will make them just as He pleases, and He is doing this even now.

The verses in 2 Corinthians are to bring out what the saints are in the hands of God now, to contain the most precious thing, called a "treasure": that is to say, the testimony of God by the Spirit in regard of Christ; it is really the shining out of God, what God is, in Christ. It is a question of the Person of Christ, "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ". It is a question of His personality, because the face discloses what He is personally, and that is available to God for the shining out of His glory. And that glory is to be in every Christian's heart; it is the greatest treasure of which you can conceive. We are very slow. I am speaking of this because I have in mind that the saints should advance on the line of excellency, that they should "judge of and approve the things that are more excellent", Philippians 1:10. That treasure is all that God is, shining out in the face of a Man, in testimony, and that is to be reflected, to be carried about in this world, in vessels such as we are here, in flesh and blood conditions.

It is not the saints yet viewed in their absolute state as formed of God for eternity in heaven, although that has already begun, but we are still here -- fragile things, and the word "earthen" signifies what is breakable -- that God has put the most precious thing into you and me. You might say, But an automobile may strike me as I am crossing the street, and kill me.

But then, you see, it does not strike you, if you see what I mean, you are preserved of God. I do not say that these things do not happen, I am only speaking of how we are situated, that we are here in fragility; every moment we are dependent on God. Not only because your life is precious -- it is precious to God -- but because this treasure is in you. The treasure is the testimony; what we are in relation to God here; so that God watches over the saints as they cross the street. One always feels the need nowadays of saying to God as one goes out, "Preserve me, O God". I am thinking of the physical preservation. That should be the prayer of the heart, even if not spoken; it is the attitude of heart of a fragile vessel, not only because your life is precious, which it is, but because of the treasure that God has put into you.

In the pattern of the house that David had by the Spirit we have "treasuries" (1 Chronicles 28:12). The things that he had by the Spirit included not only one treasury, it is in the plural, "treasuries". I conceive that the thought includes all the saints, that every saint is a treasury. And as soon as I see that, I begin to look at myself somewhat differently: my life is precious, it may be, to my family, or to the saints; but there is something in me as I stand here, or in you as you sit there, that is of God. It is a treasure. No angel ever had it, nor ever will have it! It is a treasure we have in earthen vessels. I quite admit that was peculiarly true of Paul, but it is true in measure of every one who has the Spirit, and it is particularly seen in those who are concerned about the testimony.

The Lord, speaking of a scribe who was discipled into the kingdom of the heavens, said he would bring out of his treasure things new and old. It is important not only to have things, but to bring them out and to show them: not to cast pearls before swine, indeed, but to show them to appreciative eyes: "things new and old". How God values a man who has such things!

In the upper room in Jerusalem, we have the eleven apostles and several women; it says, "and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren", each one had this treasure. Take Peter, for instance, what did he have in his heart? Not only the training that he had from the Lord for his service, but what he knew of Jesus and of God in Him. There were certain things that were peculiar to himself. Then John, and so all the apostles, for each had his own view of Christ. It is not only that each apostle was a believer, and that he was quite competent to preach and to teach, but he had a view of Christ that was peculiar to himself. And so it is with every saint; he has something peculiar, and that is a treasure. The aggregate of these peculiar features that are distributed amongst the saints makes up Christ as presented in testimony; "so also is the Christ", as is said in 1 Corinthians 12.

And then, Mary, the Lord's mother -- think of what she had! You would speak of her with peculiar respect; not with superstitious reverence, as is common today, that is idolatry -- for she was just a saint like ourselves. But I would say to her with respect, 'You have things that I have not, no one else has what you have'. 'Yes', she would say, 'that is true'. And I would say to John, 'You have the Lord's mother in your house'. The Lord said at the cross to her, "Woman, behold thy son". That, you will understand, does not refer to Himself. He did not ask her to look at Him there; He referred to John; that is, He constituted her in that word a mother to John, so that John would have her in his house in that relation. Hence she would open up to John things about Jesus that John would never otherwise have known. How tenderly John would regard her!

Mary would not talk lightly or to satisfy natural curiosity about these things; they were pearls which she would not cast "before swine"; she would not satisfy the curious enquiries of ungodly people about

the Lord Jesus; no. She would treasure them within her heart. She was in this sense a treasury of God. She would speak of Jesus with feelings of holiness. She was being formed in this respect as early as the beginning of Luke. We are told in Luke 2 that she "kept all these things in her mind, pondering them in her heart". And so it is with every christian in his measure; as he takes in the thoughts of God as revealed in Jesus, by the Spirit, he values them. I am persuaded that we do not value them enough, that we deal with them too lightly. We are constituted holy vessels -- vessels of mercy, as it says, competent to receive these things, and to cherish them, and to keep them, as mysterious things to be unfolded only to appreciative eyes and ears.

That is what I had in mind. May the Lord open our eyes, so that we might see the value of each one saint, what he can do, what he may be. Whether as viewed militarily, or as a star shining, or as a praying man: what one man may do, as we get in James, for James represents this side in his epistle; the Lord appeared to him by himself (1 Corinthians 15:7). He speaks of Elijah. He says Elijah was a man of like passions with ourselves; but he prayed with prayer, and the heavens were shut up for three years and six months. That is what one believer can do. And he prayed again, "and the heaven gave rain, and the earth caused its fruit to spring forth", James 5:18. May the Lord give us opened eyes; that we may have the vision of the Almighty, and see the saints in their true value; that each may hold himself as "a vessel to honour, sanctified, serviceable to the Master".

Pages 149 - 268 -- "Christ's Sonship in Matthew's Gospel". London 1934 (Volume 119)

CHRIST'S SONSHIP IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (1)

Matthew 1:17 - 25; Matthew 2:13 - 15

J.T. It was thought that we might consider the sonship of Christ as seen in the gospel of Matthew, as found in six settings. The first in chapter 2; the second in chapters 3 and 4; the third in chapter 11; the fourth in chapter 16; the fifth in chapter 17 -- the mount of transfiguration; and the sixth in chapter 28. There are other references to sonship in the gospel, but these are the main passages, and I believe the Lord will help us in looking at them as affording a subject which, needless to say, is of immense moment at the present time.

The object in mind is not only that we might get the truth by itself as presented in these passages -- that is, the truth abstractly, and perfectly presented in Christ -- but that we might see the bearing of it on our own present position, because what may be remarked as to Matthew's gospel as a whole is that it bears on the assembly, not only as seen at Pentecost, or even as Paul presents it at Corinth and Ephesus, but right through to the present time. It contemplates the whole history or sojourn of the assembly here on earth, and views it as being the vessel of the testimony and the object of incessant opposition; therefore we may look in Matthew's gospel for provision to meet this opposition with the kind of endurance that is needed for it. With this in view, it may be further remarked that chapter 1 bears on our present position as regards the question of its legality: whether the ground taken today by the saints who are seeking to do the will of God is legal, that is, right according to divine requirements as before

God and men; whether the position is tenable from that standpoint. This is the point of view in chapter 1 in regard of the position of Christ, as it is said, "Jesus, who is called Christ" (verse 16). He had acquired that name rightfully -- given to Him, of course -- but He was called Christ. The genealogy and the whole of the chapter are to establish incontestably the position thus taken up by those who called Him Christ. It was necessary that this should be established, not only as needed to meet current exigencies, but to prove the link with the outset of God's intervention sovereignly in Abraham. I think the brethren will see the bearing of this as we proceed, for the effort of the enemy is to discredit what God is supporting. External circumstances are so beclouding that the position occupied by those who seek to do the will of God is peculiarly exposed to attacks.

H.E.S. Have we here the setting forth of what is available for maintaining what is of God at any moment?

J.T. Yes, at any given time from the outset, and right through. That is, Matthew has no fear as to meeting the enemy; Luke, being the gospel of grace, has more consideration for opposers. Matthew has no compunction about speaking out and exposing that from which the saints had to separate in his day; but obviously it is important that the position taken in separating should be established as legal, or in other words, as accredited, as supported by Scripture; and not only that, but that there are evidences on the line of generation. So, as most of us know, certain of the kings which had sprung from Jezebel are omitted from the genealogy, this corresponding with the history of the assembly; reproach is attached to these spiritually, as we may say, and hence, Jezebel and all she stands for are in principle eliminated, as having no part in this evidence of the legality of the position, she has no voice in it.

P.L. Do we get something similar to this in Nehemiah,

where they had to establish purity in relation to the genealogy?

J.T. That bears on the chapter, so that the position is not only scriptural, but the evidence of the line is present in its moral features, and hence much is made of Joseph. It is said he was "the husband of Mary", he is called a righteous man, and he is one amenable to divine direction, which is a very important character to bear in the presence of current attacks.

P.L. Does he suggest a combination of firmness in regard of what is due to God's throne, and at the same time, of tenderness in regard to Mary, the one mentioned -- "unwilling to expose her publicly"?

J.T. Yes. Matthew's account makes the birth of the Lord much more vulnerable to attack than Luke's, and Joseph's attitude is suggestive of what is needed. He was characteristically a righteous man, a tender, feeling man, a sacrificing man -- all necessary features, so that the position should be secured and the enemy have no advantage. Righteousness, therefore, and feeling are of great importance at the present time in view of the efforts to discredit what is well known to be supported of God.

H.H. Would you make anything of the dreams? Joseph was encouraged by them to pursue the right course.

J.T. We shall see later in our inquiry the part revelation has in the present position when we come to chapter 16. It is not only that our position is to be legal, that is, as set out plainly in Scripture, but there are immediate communications from God. Such are given to those who are in the position of Joseph, those marked off as doing the will of God and following righteousness. The dreams here are of that character; God coming in to fortify us against giving way to darkness in our minds. We shall find the principle throughout Scripture, that God anticipates the danger that may arise in the conflict owing to ignorance, or

darkness, or weakness, it may be. As in the case of Ananias in Damascus, the Lord anticipated that he could not meet the situation, and so He came to him and instructed him, so that he could meet the requirements of the moment. If we are righteous, the Lord will not leave us in the dark about anything. Joseph was a righteous man, that is the point, and he had no preconceived thoughts; he was amenable to divine adjustment.

R.G.H. As a righteous man he was careful not to jeopardise the testimony in any way; he "pondered on these things".

J.T. Quite so. He was a righteous man, and that is what is needed. Righteous men are ready for adjustment, they have no preconceived thoughts, so that Joseph here was amenable to adjustment.

Ques. Is that why it emphasises the thought of righteousness as the first principle we have to follow in 2 Timothy 2:22?

J.T. Yes, righteousness is the first principle involved. This is a matter of the greatest practical importance today because of what has occurred in many parts among the brethren in the way of inability to meet obligations. Then there is righteousness in other ways as to whether we have wills, motives or fleshly aspirations in the things of God; these all interfere, so that Joseph is an excellent example for us to begin with -- a righteous man amenable to adjustment.

M.W.B. In what way would you distinguish between the righteousness of Zacharias and Elizabeth referred to in Luke, and that referred to here?

J.T. I do not think the righteousness of Zacharias equals that of Joseph. Whilst Zacharias was a righteous man, he was not a believing man; he had prayed for things, but did not expect answers; and when the answers were proposed, he was unbelieving. There is nothing of that kind with Joseph.

M.W.B. Then have you in mind the external side

in connection with the defence of the testimony? Why do you emphasise the legal side?

J.T. It is legal in that the Jewish law confirmed what Jesus was called. He was "called Christ"; He was the Anointed; so that the genealogy was according to the law governing these matters, in accrediting the thing to Him as the Christ. I do not use the word 'legal' in any common or religious sense, but rather as what is scripturally required.

Eu.R. How does that bear on the thought of sonship in Romans 1? It says, "his Son (come of David's seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God ... )". How do they link together?

J.T. Well, sonship is a matter of power: "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead". We get it in Matthew 2, not as a matter of power, but as carrying forward the Old Testament thought: "Out of Egypt have I called my son". That is to say, Matthew builds us up in the truth of sonship, as I may say, informally, which is the most effective way; the thing is brought in as I am ready for it. So also as regards the deity of the Lord, which His sonship implies. You have it introduced here in an informal yet emphatic way: "he shall save his people from their sins". A spiritually exercised person will say the "he" and the "his" refer to Jehovah, to none other. Then again, "they shall call his name Emmanuel", and we have the interpretation, "God with us". All this becomes an element in the soul, according to Matthew's way of presenting the truth, and this will abide.

Ques. Is this condition of righteousness with Joseph a moral necessity on our part as making us ready for this further light?

J.T. That is what I thought. God did not take up merely any man; He took up a man who was betrothed to a woman, the man being righteous. That was not accidental; it was important in view of the legality of

the position, that he was truly the son of David and bearing the character of David. So we have much more about Joseph here than elsewhere; he is called the "son of David".

H.D'A.C. It does not say that Emmanuel means 'God with him', but "God with us", which would surely involve that He is God.

J.T. "God with us" is a great fundamental element in the soul, brought in informally, as one might say. As we read Matthew in a spiritual way we are prepared for all that may be said informally about the deity of Christ in such statements as this. God was truly with Him, as Peter says (Acts 10:38), but His presence here is "God with us", and that runs right through the gospel: "behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". He is no less than God.

S.J.B.C. Jesus is the Greek name for Joshua, which means Jehovah the Saviour; He is a divine Person.

J.T. The original word Joshua is somewhat enlarged upon by Moses in Numbers 13:16, to bring out this point. It is "Jehovah [is] Saviour": that could never be said of Joshua himself. So here, only God Himself could be in mind where the "he" and the "his" are brought in in this way.

S.J.B.C. That would emphasise His essential deity.

H.F.N. Would you say a word in regard to the contrast between the way in which John presents the Lord's sonship and the way it is presented in Matthew?

J.T. As has often been remarked. John gives us the history of His Person, not informally as in Matthew, but abstractly, in view, no doubt, of meeting later conditions. I apprehend Matthew wrote for earlier conditions, with a view to the extrication of the saints from judaism; but the Spirit of God in John had the early part of the second century more in mind, the early introduction of Greek and Jewish philosophy, and the introduction of false thoughts about Christ almost immediately after apostolic times. That was anticipated

in John's gospel, and so, of course, it is the great foundation gospel as regards the Person of the Lord. Matthew builds up his gospel more from the Old Testament -- John does not do that -- so that the first formal reference to sonship in Matthew is from the Old Testament: "Out of Egypt have I called my son".

H.M.S. Why is it that the divinely given title Emmanuel in this chapter is not again used in Scripture? We might have thought the very quotation from Isaiah would have greatly supported the truth of sonship.

J.T. I suppose the Spirit of God considered that the quotation was so well known, and brought in here so definitely, that it would stand throughout. The title Emmanuel has a peculiar place in the minds of the saints, and its interpretation, "God with us", has a searching effect, too; Corinthians works out the thought that "God is indeed amongst you", 1 Corinthians 14:25. It is a question of whether God is indeed with us, and I believe Matthew has in mind to work out in our souls what that means. So the position is not only accredited by Scripture, but accredited, that is, proved to be legal by the presence of "God with us". What can overthrow that?

P.L. "Behold, I am with you all the days".

J.T. That is really Emmanuel. Every day in the history of the testimony God is with us in Christ.

M.W.B. In verse 23 it says, "they shall call his name Emmanuel". It does not say, 'thou shalt call his name Emmanuel'. Does it imply that they would reach that in their experience as realising His support?

J.T. It is a known thing; He is called Emmanuel because it is known; they do it. It is general, you might say, and left open in that way.

W.C. Does the passage in Isaiah 8 bear upon it? "Rage, ye peoples ... ! And give ear, all ye distant parts of the earth: Gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and be broken in pieces! Settle

a plan, and it shall come to nought; speak a word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us" (verses 9, 10).

J.T. "God is with us" -- there is Emmanuel, and if God be with us, who can overcome us? Opposers are only dashing themselves against a wall if God be with His people.

E.J.McB. Is there not a great deal in the fact that it says, "being interpreted, God with us"? Does not the thing need to be brought as light into the soul?

J.T. That is good. The first "being interpreted" is literal, but you have in mind that the Spirit of God makes things consciously known amongst us. It is very largely a question of ministry, but certainly the word Emmanuel may be taken up in a very wide sense. The point is that God is indeed with His people, and where the spirit of prophecy is in action, a man falls down and owns it. So that Gamaliel said, "if it be from God, ye will not be able to put them down" (Acts 5:39), nor can they. The point therefore is to prove that God is with us.

A.M. Is that borne out in Genesis 21 in regard to Abraham, when Abimelech and Phichol had to say that God was with him?

J.T. That is right, and so too with Isaac (Genesis 26). Abimelech brought his captain with him to see Isaac and made a show of his power, as people do, but they had to bow to the fact that God was with Isaac; it was that very fact that ensured peace.

H.F.N. Is one great evidence that God is with us seen in the presence of prophetic ministry on the line of 1 Corinthians 14?

J.T. Well, that is how it is stated, that if prophecy is proceeding and a man comes into the Christian company, he falls down and says, "God is indeed amongst you". It is not mere profession; the presence of God in the assembly is brought to bear on the man's conscience by the ministry alluded to.

H.F.N. Would you say a word in regard of that kind of meeting, as bearing upon God being with us?

J.T. Well, it has often been remarked that 1 Corinthians 11 contemplates the saints together "in assembly" -- not in the assembly, but "in assembly". It refers to our attitude as together, without stating that all are there, although this also is alluded to in the chapter; but the first reference to our being together is "in assembly" (verse 18), and the truth connected with that position is the Lord's supper, which also opens up the service of God. In chapter 14, it is not the saints come together "in assembly", but "the whole assembly come together in one place", however many. That is for ministry, so that the meeting is not properly an assembly meeting; it is rather all the assembly, those who are recognised as of it, and the truth of the temple would be known there. But it is for ministry clearly.

P.L. Is such a meeting part of the normal furnishing of any local company?

J.T. It seems to be. The epistle to the Corinthians is addressed to "all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ", and is instruction for every local company. "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17.

M.W.B. Would you say just a word or two more about 1 Corinthians 14 not being an assembly meeting? Does not verse 19 of that chapter almost imply an assembly meeting: "but in the assembly I desire to speak five words with my understanding ..."?

J.T. That is a very general statement. He is speaking of how a person should participate in the assembly, and as there, whether it is in the Spirit that he sings or ministers or prays. "In assembly", in that connection would be very largely a question of the temple -- but as regards praying and singing, of course it would be general -- what may be done according to chapter 11; but the passage that I am alluding to as having ministry

particularly in view, is verse 23: "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place ..."

Eu.R. In verse 35 he uses the expression "in assembly" again.

J.T. Yes, as to women. That would be a question of order; it does not touch what has been remarked as to chapter 11 where the saints come together "in assembly". In chapter 14 it is simply the character of the thing, that you are together with the saints.

Eu.R. How do you distinguish between that and chapter 11?

J.T. I think the context helps. In chapter 11 the apostle immediately alludes to the Lord's Supper as introductory.

H.H. The scripture says, "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place". Would that mean that we should only have that one meeting at that time?

J.T. I think we ought to recognise the word "if". It is not a direct word that all the saints should come together, but if they do it. It seems however that the kind of meeting contemplated includes all the saints in any given city. The great thing is prophecy. So that consciences should be reached, and all that follows has that in mind.

Eu.R. Is it your thought that 1 Corinthians 11 is the assembly meeting, and that would give tone and character to the meeting of chapter 14?

J.T. Properly speaking, the assembly is a weekly matter.

Eu.R. So the first day of the week bears on each occasion, even the prayer meeting.

J.T. I think so. We may come together in assembly for the execution of discipline. In Matthew the assembly is identified with the testimony as taking the place of Israel. We have also to bear in mind what it is God-ward as the vessel of praise.

Eu.R. In chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians it takes on temple character.

J.T. Exactly. We never lose sight of the assembly, but chapter 11 is the great thought belonging to the first day of the week.

H.M.S. Referring to Emmanuel, it is said, "they shall call his name Emmanuel", and it was said to Joseph, "thou shalt call his name Jesus", but in the chapter in Isaiah it seems to be the virgin herself who should call His name Immanuel (chapter 7: 14). Does that bear in any way on the point of sonship?

J.T. It does. The passage read earlier -- Isaiah 8:9, 10 -- shows that the thing had extended. It would imply that the remnant would take it on, that the Jewish remnant learn to say "God is with us", and will say it, by and by. Well, we ought to learn to say it, and with meaning, that God is indeed with us; the brethren in different meetings ought to learn to say that God is with them, that is, as knowing and realising it. For in Isaiah 8 it is to meet the Assyrian -- the name is a challenge to that nation.

Eu.R. Is it not very important to regard the saints in any locality as being His people? I was thinking of what the Lord said to Paul, "I have much people in this city" (Acts 8:10); they belonged to Him.

J.T. Quite so. We shall see when we come to chapter 18 of this gospel that "where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them" (verse 20). That is the same thought -- God is there.

F.S.M. Referring to verse 24: "But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him". Coupled with righteousness, would there not be implicit and ready obedience in view of apprehending the Lord's Person -- is not that involved in it?

J.T. Exactly. He is entirely governed by what is told him, which points to a man entirely under self-control,

which is a fruit of the Spirit. "He called his name Jesus", notice; that is the last word in the chapter.

Ques. What would be the evidence that God is with us, for there are other companies who claim that God is with them?

J.T. That is a very important question, and has really been anticipated to some extent. The spirit of prophecy amongst us, ministry in the power of the Spirit of God is one evidence. If people claim to have God with them, there surely should be some evidence in that connection, something in the way of spiritual ministry. There are other evidences, of course. We cannot say very much in a practical way, but I think there is ground for assuming that there is evidence of the presence of God in the midst of His people who are seeking to walk in the truth at the present time.

Ques. Does that maintain the people of God in a spirit of humility, so that He should continue to be with them? It says that He inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15), but He dwells with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit. I was thinking of Joseph as having no fleshly aspirations, content to be connected with the work of God, small or great, wherever it was.

J.T. And the work of God which was very exposed to public criticism. The statement is: "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was thus: His mother, Mary, that is, having been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit". What God was doing was exposed to the enemy's attack peculiarly, and it is a great matter that there are those who will come forward, whom God can use in such circumstances, to protect the position. What God is doing is under reproach, but a man like Joseph is of immense value for the moment to protect that position.

J.J. Would the principle of reproach be seen in the four gentile women in the genealogy?

J.T. Quite so. It says, "Joseph ... being a righteous

man, and unwilling to expose her publicly, purposed to have put her away secretly; but while he pondered on these things ..." He was not a wilful man, he was a thoughtful man, and God came in for him, and for the testimony.

H.E.S. As the assembly is in view, I would like to ask why there are these frequent quotations from the prophets in Matthew.

J.T. The thought is to build up the truth from the Old Testament in Matthew, so that it is one whole. Beginning with Abraham, we are in the presence of the sovereign selection of God, as seen also in the careful selection of the genealogy, in which is omitted the corrupting element which came in through Jezebel, so that the legal position is incontestably established, and then in the actual qualities found in Joseph, the Son of David, we have practical proof that the line is there.

The next thing is, "Jesus having been born in Bethlehem" (chapter 2: 1). We have now the historical position, one also accredited, for the enemies themselves have to admit by their information that that is where the Messiah should be born. The historical position is now in view, because the passage should read, "Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea", and the presence of the wise men leads to an enquiry which shows that Scripture calls for the birth of the Messiah, naming the place where Jesus was to be born. The historical position is thus accredited, but then the next thing is, what heaven is doing. The angel had communicated to Joseph in a vision, but now heaven is moving. Chapter 2 brings in heaven, that is the star, and the persons who saw it are moved by seeing it; they are persons of feeling. It has been enquired, what are the evidences of the presence of God? Well, these are the evidences, men coming from afar, enquiring for the Child born, and calling Him "king of the Jews". Who told them that He was "king of the Jews"? Heaven is acting now, and this leads us

to the passage in Hosea: "out of Egypt I called my son". I think the brethren will see that the testimony of the magi from the East has some corresponding feature now in persons who are guided by what is heavenly. We have the Scriptures in chapter 1, and the character of Joseph, all bearing on the name Emmanuel, the presence of God amongst His people, and now we have the heavenly testimony aside from the Scriptures.

A.M.P. Why is the expression "little child" used seven times here?

J.T. I think it is to bring out the weakness of the outward position. He is not called a babe; a little child is a development on a babe, I am speaking now of the bearing of the truth on our own position. Things are small, but it is a "little child". The little Child is always put before the mother, showing that the spiritual element is now obtaining. The wise men, it says, having come into the house, "saw the little child with Mary his mother". Being a divine Person, He has of course a place before His mother. Then we have the direction to depart into their own country another way. That is, the spiritual matter is now in evidence; these men represent the spiritual side. There is increase in that way. Not only are the legal and historical positions established, but men are moving now spiritually in relation to all this. The wise men see the little Child in the house with His mother and they depart "another way", which is a sure way of escaping from what is at Jerusalem, that is, the established religious system at Jerusalem. All this makes way for the introduction of Hosea 11:1: "out of Egypt I called my son".

Ques. Would you say that wise men find on earth what is in perfect correspondence with the light in heaven, untainted by the flesh or the theology of man? It was a small light in heaven, and there was perfect correspondence in smallness on earth, untouched by man.

J.T. That involves volumes as to the present position: as regards the testimony, where is He at this moment? Here He is with His mother in the house; and the spiritual instincts marking these men lead them to worship Him, small Child though He was; they then departed to their own country another way.

P.L. Does it suggest the activity of heaven with exercised souls, whereby they can locate what is of God in a locality? It is the fruit of a journey of exercise under the guidance of heaven.

J.T. That is the thing. God is working in accord with the dispensation; the dispensation involving the voice and guidance of heaven which are peculiar to it, bringing out the thought of the kingdom of the heavens; then the work of God in these men involving instinct, seen in the way they move in departing another way, corresponding, we may say, to what marked Rahab, the particular element that was in her. She sent the spies out another way -- not the ordinary way.

Ques. What are we to learn from that -- another way?

J.T. It is not on the common level, not the current religious way. Many christians are governed by the ordinary way; they have not departed from judaism in principle; whereas heaven's way is another way. It is the spiritual side that is stressed in these men.

Rem. If you are divinely instructed you do not follow the beaten track of theology.

J.T. It is not an independent way, but the heavenly way -- another way in the sense of not being current.

P.L. "The proud beasts have not trodden it, nor the fierce lion passed over it", Job 28:8.

J.T. Herod did not see where they went.

Eu.R. In referring to the mother in the house, have you in mind that there is a suggestion of the assembly, as to where these features are centred?

J.T. There is just a suggestion of it; the little Child is with His mother. It is what was normal for the

moment, and under these circumstances we have Hosea quoted. It says, "Now, they having departed ..." The wise men are in evidence as to what they do; they represent the spiritual feature: and then it says, "behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph, saying, Arise, take to thee the little child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be there until I shall tell thee; for Herod will seek the little child to destroy it". We see here that Joseph comes in still in the service. He gets no such distinction anywhere else; it is only in Matthew. It is the responsible side amongst us. He is owned of God as righteous, and can now be trusted with the little Child to go into Egypt, showing what must have developed in this man, a carpenter, as he was, that he should be taken on for an extensive service; to go into Egypt with the little Child and His mother. What a charge he had! There is in that the suggestion of God taking up unlikely persons, persons of no religious status at all, and entrusting them with the greatest things. For what could be greater than this charge -- the little Child and His mother to be carried into Egypt?

P.L. Would there be spiritual instinct with him in that he went by night?

J.T. "Having arisen, he took to him the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt". Notice the "to thee" of verse 13; and "he took to him" (verse 14), meaning personal interest in the great charge. Applying it to ourselves, see what a charge we have, what there is to be looked after in the way of the testimony! "He took to him the little child and his mother". It was not a burden taken by anyone, but by one genuinely affected and interested, having relations with God, and valuing what he had.

Ques. Would that emphasise the importance of righteousness?

J.T. What is said about Joseph sets forth the great recognition by God of righteousness in any of us.

H.E.S. Are we brought to care for the spiritual features that we have appreciated in the little Child?

J.T. God has brought the sonship of Christ before us and helped us as to it. Well now, the question is, What am I doing with it? "Take to thee". I have to take the thing to myself. The truth of the Person of Christ is a wonderful thing -- "Take to thee the little child and his mother". He was going to an unknown territory, as far as he was concerned; it was a long way off literally; the journey was extended and exposed. What exercises are required when we consider what God has graciously given to us! Have I taken the thing to myself? And am I carrying it as Joseph did?

E.J.McB. It is rather remarkable that Hosea, referring to this, says that when Israel was a child Jehovah loved him (chapter 11: 1), indicating how precious he was to Jehovah's heart.

J.T. Was ever a child loved more than this "little child"? "Out of Egypt have I called my son". Called out of Egypt, He was a Son. What He was as a Child under God's eye, who can say? What an incentive to draw out divine affections!

J.T.S. I suppose there would be no careless exposure in this journey. He took the Child by night.

J.T. That is very good. In dealing with holy things we are apt to expose them. We are enjoined to "Give not that which is holy to the dogs, nor cast your pearls before the swine", Matthew 7:6. The things are to be kept secret and cherished.

CHRIST'S SONSHIP IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (2)

Matthew 3:1 - 4, 13 - 17; Matthew 4:1 - 17

J.T. We shall do well to pay attention to Joseph as seen in these early chapters, 1 and 2, as representative of the responsible element particularly. Of course, all are responsible, and the Lord addresses the assemblies severally as inclusive of all the saints in each, but there are those who are specially responsible in localities in which the saints are, and I believe the Lord would direct our attention to Joseph as presented in this gospel in that respect. Firstly, we see his consideration for Mary; then, his adjustment by divine intervention; and then, his reliableness as entrusted with the little Child and His mother -- the most precious charge that could be committed to anyone -- then, his attention to the directions given him; even as to proceeding to Nazareth, as we learn from the end of chapter 2, where it says, "having heard that 'Archelaus reigns over Judaea, instead of Herod his father', he was afraid to go there; and having been divinely instructed in a dream, he went away into the parts of Galilee, and came and dwelt in a town called Nazareth; so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazaraean". So that Joseph is seen as acting fully up to the requirements of the moment, a matter of great consequence as regards responsibility in gatherings, if we are considering for God and desire to be amenable to His influence and direction.

Ques. In looking at Joseph in this way as a kind of pattern churchman, should we note his feelings in regard to what he thought was a case of evil? He was "unwilling to expose her publicly". I should like to ask as to the bearing of this on the question of making announcements in a public way about cases of discipline -- as to whether it should come before those breaking

bread or before all the persons who attend the meeting.

J.T. I should say that the announcement should be made in the presence of those in fellowship only, according to the directions in 1 Corinthians 5"when ye are gathered together, and my spirit" -- that refers to the saints -- "put away from among yourselves". What have you to say yourself?

Rem. Well, it is sometimes made public on the plea of clearing the Lord's name in a public way. I wondered if the presence of righteous persons, as indicated in Joseph, would be a kind of warrant for those who look on, that the meeting is not going on with evil.

J.T. I do not see any warrant for making any announcement other than to the assembly. It is "ye" and "yourselves" in 1 Corinthians 5.

W.C. Would there be any objection to an announcement that we were no longer walking with such a person?

J.T. That would be a matter of information for those to whom the information should be given. I do not see that we are called upon to notify any others than those who in principle belong to the assembly.

M.W.B. If that be the case, is there need for more than the announcement at the assembly meeting, where the judgment has been arrived at? Is it necessary again to announce it on the Lord's day morning?

J.T. There is nothing in 1 Corinthians about announcing the discipline; the judgment is simply executed according to 1 Corinthians 5. There is no suggestion of a further need of announcing it, the assembly having already been gathered together for the purpose. Of course, all should be brought into it; the principle of casting stones is that all should be brought into it, but it does not seem as if any other should be notified publicly.

H.M.G. Would you exclude from the assembly meeting the person who was the cause of the discipline?

J.T. No, he should be there, if he is willing to be there. Alas! some are not willing to be there. For

instance, "Those that sin convict before all", 1 Timothy 5:20. It suggests that he should be present. The word is "convict". The sins of God's people of old are recorded for us. The Lord would draw a veil over them were it not that He wishes us to learn from them. The things that happened were examples for us; they were written for our learning.

J.J. In this case it is what an individual does -- what Joseph himself does. Can an individual act in that way in connection with a case in the assembly?

J.T. The suggestion here is that he represents the responsible element. If a man like Joseph were in your meeting, he would be disposed to keep the evil as private as possible. There is no gain in spreading it; it is a matter for the judgment of the assembly. Of course the judgment is there; and if anybody enquires he can find out. The judgment is executed.

W.W. Does it not involve an act in righteousness? A righteous person always does that which is right because he is acting in love; it was love that led Joseph to act thus towards Mary.

J.T. Yes, if we love one another and anything happens, we shall be very slow to spread the evil abroad. Still, it has to be dealt with, but it does not seem that we should go beyond the instructions in 1 Corinthians.

Rem. It does say there that the sin was universally reported.

J.T. I should think that 1 Corinthians 5:1 would primarily allude to the saints; it was known and spoken of definitely among the brethren. Of course, if it were some flagrant conduct known among all, it would be well that all should know it is judged, but then we would not go outside to tell people. If any one enquired, he could find out.

Rem. In connection with the fall of Saul upon mount Gilboa, David says, "Tell it not in Gath, carry not the tidings in the streets of Ashkelon", 2 Samuel 1:20.

J.T. Quite so; that has a great bearing on what we

are saying. As was remarked, what is said of Joseph here is of very great importance now, as regards responsibility in our gatherings. The result of his course is that the Scriptures are confirmed.

Ques. Would the case of Ananias and Sapphira be helpful? It says, "great fear came upon all the assembly, and upon all who heard these things". Would those immediately concerned be the assembly, but would the report go wider -- "all who heard these things"?

J.T. That was a very special case, of course, and you will observe that, after the execution of that judgment, "great fear came upon all the assembly, and upon all who heard these things. And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders done among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch, but of the rest durst no man join them, but the people magnified them; and believers were more than ever added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women)", Acts 5:11 - 14. The resort was to Solomon's porch, which suggests judgment. It is quite to be expected that if anything serious happens in the locality it should become known, and it becomes known by enquiry. But it is not the idea of a medium of information; the judgment becomes known in the divinely appointed way: "all who heard these things", it says.

Ques. Does not Joseph represent somebody waiting for the Lord's mind in regard of something, because it says, "while he pondered on these things"?

J.T. Quite so. It was remarked this morning that he was a thoughtful man, and therefore he represents what was required. He is a person who thinks things over, and God takes account of him and adjusts him, and prepares him for what he has to face.

H.F.N. How does the thought of the ministry of John the baptist stand in relation to what we started with? What is the link in your mind?

J.T. We may see in John the baptist the part ministry has in relation to this great subject. Mary is the subjective

feature; there is little said about her beyond that the Child is begotten in her. And Joseph names the Child, not she -- Mary was to name the Child according to Luke -- so that it is a question of responsibility with Joseph right through. Mary being the subjective element, Joseph is the responsible element, which is general, of course, but having its expression in certain ones in each meeting; and then John the baptist in this setting is just the ministry. We have nothing of him earlier, but how befitting was his part -- his garment and his nourishment -- and how ready he was to humble himself in the presence of Christ!

H.E.S. Is your thought that the responsible element being already present, suitable ministry will follow?

J.T. Yes. The chapters challenge us all as to our part in the testimony, involving the Son of God, "God with us"; then as to our behaviour as responsible in our localities; and then as to the ministry.

Ques. Do you think God would graciously give preparatory ministry, in view of light that He may give? Is it not a fact that those who do not follow up the ministry are not able to take in the light when it comes?

J.T. John is introduced here as representative of suitable ministry for any given time. God gives ministry as it is needed, and John represents the needed ministry for this particular time. It says, "Now in those days comes John the baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, and saying, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh".

H.D'A.C. It was penetrating, prophetic ministry.

J.T. Exactly. That is what comes out -- a fearless announcement of the truth. It was preparatory; John has always in view something to come: "prepare ye", he says, "the way of the Lord".

Eu.R. You spoke this morning of what was historical. Have you in mind that the testimony at any given time bears on God's public ways with men? That is, it stands in relation to the sphere where that testimony

is being rendered, the territory, so to speak, of His dealings with men generally.

J.T. Yes. Any testimony would take account of the current course of things in the world. We have to do with a much more difficult state of things than our brethren did twenty years ago, for instance; changes in the world are taking place with great rapidity, one feature being the great growth of cities. All these things are taken account of by God, and He fits His servants to meet them.

Eu.R. Chapter 2 is all very small and insignificant in the eyes of men, and yet really it was of the greatest possible import in relation to them. Would that not encourage us today in relation to the outward littleness of the testimony?

J.T. Then John's ministry takes account of conditions as they were. But first, "John himself had his garment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins, and his nourishment was locusts and wild honey"; he is an example for us. The ministry is exacting, and if we are to be effective, we have to accept the consequences of it. So that the effect of it was widespread, affecting, as it says, "Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the country round the Jordan". We are reminded that a ministry raised up of God is always effective and in keeping with what is needed. God did not appeal to Galilee through John; the testimony through John affected Jerusalem, the very centre of religious zeal. The Lord going to Galilee discredits the religious system, but John appealed to it. For instance, the revival of a hundred years ago made a powerful appeal to the whole of the accredited religious systems of the world.

Ques. What have you in mind as to his clothing and nourishment?

J.T. They are not such as anyone with worldly tastes would seek, or would be satisfied with. It says, "John himself", as if the person is stressed, "had his

garment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins, and his nourishment was locusts and wild honey". Obviously it was such clothing and nourishment as would hardly appeal to anyone with cultivated natural tastes, so that it becomes challenging to us. The need for ministry is urgent, there is a loud call for it, but then it must be such as can be divinely approved. Unless, in undertaking the ministry, we learn to disallow natural tastes, we shall become tested later, and exposed. Here we have a result immediately: "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the country round the Jordan, and were baptised by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins". All this is to bring out the power of the ministry.

H.D'A.C. And the line of the ministry is, "Let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach", Hebrews 13:13.

J.T. Exactly, and making no terms. You will observe that Jerusalem and Judaea made no terms; they accepted John's terms, showing what great moral power he had.

P.L. Could anyone ever profit by the mind of God at any given moment unless he were marked as making no terms?

J.T. The principle is, that things must be on God's terms, so that the servant is on the side of God. The twelve, of course had a peculiar place. The apostle John says, "our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:3), but the statement indicates how God takes account of His servants; that they are, as it were, alongside of Him, they are representative and they will not compromise. What is built up in Christendom, as it is today, is on the principle of compromise. John did not compromise, nor was it demanded of him.

H.F.N. In Acts 1 the one who was to take the place of Judas was to have "assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out

among us, beginning from the baptism of John" (verses 21, 22). Has it in view really the securing of assembly material as standing in relation to the Son of God?

J.T. You can see here how preparatory it was, that is, all this pointed to Christ, and John's disciples were ready to leave him for Christ. That is a great feature in ministry, that no one seeks to attach anyone to himself.

H.E.S. Is it the principle of 2 Corinthians that the minister is altogether in accord with his ministry?

J.T. That is what comes out here, and then the discrimination of persons will come in. "Seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, Offspring of vipers, who has forewarned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce therefore fruit worthy of repentance ...". There is the power of discrimination, that you are not satisfied simply because people come and hear and seem to be interested, but you discern there is something there that has to be dealt with specially -- because persons of this kind, coming under the influence of the truth outwardly, unless there is genuine repentance, become material for the enemy to work through later.

Ques. Is Peter an example of that discernment in connection with Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8?

J.T. You can see how Philip failed to discern him. Apparently he was accepted in a general way by Philip, which is a thing to be noted; but there is the discernment with Peter as to the man's state. But I only refer to all this to show, first, how the sense of responsibility to God, and righteousness characterising it, becomes available for the protection of the testimony; and then, how ministry prepares for Christ's incoming in the full thought of His Person; for the knowledge of the Son of God is implied in the fulness of Christianity. So that what comes in in relation to John, is not a little child, but Jesus in full manhood.

H.H. Ministry in that way would provide conditions

for the coming in of Christ amongst the saints at the present time.

J.T. That is what I thought. There is so much, to be cleared away in all of us. You can see how John's ministry was preparatory to the bringing in of Christ in the fulness of His Person.

Rem. The twelve men at Ephesus were baptised to John's baptism, but, when they heard what Paul said, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. They were in keeping with the two that heard John speak at the beginning, who left him and followed Jesus, so that the essence of John's ministry was to direct persons to Christ: so too with Paul. It is very fine when one's ministry has only that effect, of directing souls to Christ, making way for the Lord in the fulness of His Person, for God is aiming at that, that Christ should have His full place amongst the saints. John anticipates His coming, saying, "I indeed baptise you with water to repentance, but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not fit to bear; he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire; whose winnowing fan is in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing-floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable", so that his listeners were prepared for this great Person. Then it says in verse 13, "Then comes Jesus from Galilee". He is not from Judaea.

J.J. Would you say a little about the last verse of chapter 2 in this connection? This quotation, "He shall be called a Nazaraean", does not seem to be found in the Old Testament.

J.T. Not as to its literality, but the Old Testament certainly touches on the fact that Jesus should be such an one as this. It is the tenor of the prophets. So too the quotation, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38) -- you do not get that literally, but it is in Scripture. I think the remark at the end of chapter 2 is suggestive of intelligence amongst

us, that we do not regard the Old Testament as secondary, but that it is necessary to be conversant with it. To understand this quotation it is necessary to understand the prophets.

M.W.B. Would you say something as to the link between the verse in chapter 2: "Out of Egypt have I called my son", and the introduction of Christ here?

J.T. The statement in Hosea extends back and is linked with Exodus, that is, Israel had been in Egypt, and when he was a child God loved him. Then it says, "out of Egypt I called my son". In coming out of Egypt God had in mind that Jesus was a Son. He did not go back into the land of Israel as a little Child, but in principle as a Son, and as Son He was to serve. In Exodus, God said, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Now the Lord at the Jordan is owned in this way; He has come out of Egypt, and now He is owned as the Son from heaven.

M.W.B. I was also wondering whether the condition of the people as coming to John and being baptised, was to adjust them so that the Lord could identify Himself with them as called out of Egypt.

J.T. Quite so.

J.J. Seeing this is the first of the Lord's movements in Matthew, what have you to say as to its importance?

J.T. "Then comes Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptised of him". It is as if the Lord said, I will honour you in this way. He was worthy of such an honour, and then it says, "but John urgently forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptised of thee; and comest thou to me?"

H.F.N. How does the Lord's first recorded utterance: "Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness", link on with what you have been saying in relation to Joseph?

J.T. It links on beautifully. You have in mind the fulfilling of all righteousness?

H.F.N. What would that involve?

J.T. It certainly has a voice today when righteousness is so scarce, and unrighteousness has become so prevalent among the saints, and hence a great deal of washing is necessary. Baptism, here, would allude to that sort of thing.

J.J. Would you say the Lord makes a great deal of this in chapter 21, when He says, "John came to you in the way of righteousness" (verse 32)? It was a divine movement from heaven, and how great it was!

J.T. Then the announcement as to all righteousness being fulfilled: neither John nor Joseph could say that of himself, but it is the thought of God that in man, all righteousness is to be fulfilled.

J.T.S. Is this great feature of righteousness a necessity if we are to have the communication of the precious thoughts of God in regard of Jesus?

J.T. You feel it is manifest that righteousness must come first, and, as has just been remarked, it is the first utterance of Christ according to this gospel, "Jesus answering said to him, Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". He brings John into it.

H.F.N. Would Peter get his impressions here that he speaks of in his second epistle as to the elements being burned with fire, and then he says, "But, according to his promise, we wait for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness" (chapter 3: 13), and then he bids us to be diligent, and then brings in the ministry of our beloved brother Paul? Would that come within the compass of fulfilling all righteousness?

J.T. Making allowance for ministry is a very important matter. There is nothing really more beautiful than brethren who have ability from God, like John or Peter or Paul, making room for others. It is surely right, but here it is the figure of baptism as meeting the whole question of sin in this world. The Lord's first movement in Matthew has that in mind. He comes

"from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptised of him".

Ques. Does the Lord establish a point of contact with the remnant in that way in His baptism?

J.T. That is what comes out; He identifies Himself with this great movement of God. The Lord would always do that. Without Him it could not be effective as a matter of fact, and so with any movement. He gives fulness to every movement by linking Himself on with it, so that it says, "Jesus, having been baptised, went up straightway from the water".

Ques. Would you say that repentance is the first step in all righteousness?

J.T. Well, it is; but, of course, you cannot apply repentance to Christ.

Rem. No, I was thinking of those who had taken their place in repentance.

J.T. The Lord Jesus identifying Himself with such a movement is not personal. It really implies His own death vicariously, not yet effected, but in figure, I mean, we cannot connect repentance with the Lord in any personal way. If He identifies Himself with such a movement it must involve His own death anticipatively.

P.H.H. Would you say a word about the interest of heaven in these chapters? I was thinking of the star in chapter 2, and the drawing nigh of the kingdom of the heavens at the beginning of chapter 3, and now the heavens opening and the voice out of heaven.

J.T. To apply it in a practical way, we have come now to perfection. We have the little Child in chapter 2, and heaven by means of a star directing to Him -- a small heavenly body used to direct souls to Him. The position is diminutive in chapter 2, but still it is a development, I am not now speaking of the Lord personally, but how He is apprehended by the saints; it is a development. He is called a little Child, not a babe, and the wise men from the East are directed by a heavenly body, a star, to Him. Now we have the

heavens opened. As it says, "Jesus, having been baptised, went up straightway from the water". The thing is thoroughly understood by Him; He has gone into the water, and He comes straightway out of it, and then it says, "lo, the heavens were opened to him". He is, as it were, made conscious of heaven's interest, I mean, as to the manner in which He is presented here, "The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him". So far it is all for Himself here, as you might say, for the thought is to bring out His position; and what He is as fulfilling all righteousness, and what heaven thinks of such an One as that; for we have to link the incidental facts with the name given to Him. That is, it is what Man is, what God has found in Him, and it is all for Himself so far. Then it says, "and behold, a voice out of the heavens saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". God is now calling attention to Him, but first it is for Himself in these circumstances, heaven delighting in Him thus as answering to the full thought of manhood.

H.E.S. In Luke it says, "Thou art my beloved Son", the word being addressed to the Lord personally, but here it is, "This is my beloved Son". Is the idea that we are to be brought into the light of this?

J.T. Yes. Both Mark and Luke make it personal; but Matthew has in mind to link on with the Old Testament, and from it to build up in our souls the truth as to Christ personally. The second Psalm made it plain that God had addressed a certain Person as His Son, and I believe the idea dominates the whole of the Psalms. For instance, Psalm 45 is quoted in Hebrews 1, as alluding to the Son. But now, here is One addressed, the heavens are opened to Him, and the Spirit of God descends as a dove, coming upon Him; and then attention is called to Him, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". Not now, "I this day have begotten thee", but a Person

with a history here on earth in whom God found delight.

J.P.H. Would you say a word as to the Spirit being in the form of a dove? In John's gospel it is referred to as having been actually seen by John the baptist as such. Has that a special significance in connection with the Spirit?

J.T. The use of the word "dove" is to link on with Genesis 8, that is, all that God is, resting on this Person.

Ques. Would you say why the term "the heavens" is used here on each occasion?

J.T. It is the plural of emphasis, that they may all be included. There are three heavens spoken of, and if they are spoken of in the plural, it means that the whole idea of heaven enters into this.

H.M.S. Why do we have in this chapter in Matthew the voice from heaven, "This is my beloved Son", but not the testimony of the Baptist; but in the chapter in John's gospel we have the Baptist's testimony only, and not the voice from heaven? We might almost have thought the two would have been transposed.

J.T. John has in mind God here in Jesus, although the Spirit came down, and you do not get the transfiguration in John. It is rather an allusion to the greatness of the Person in John, and you do not get allusions such as this announcement and the announcement on the mount of transfiguration.

Ques. Do you think as the result of the approval of heaven in the fulfilling of all righteousness, that there is the support of angelic help in relation to our circumstances? We may have to suffer severely in our circumstances in the fulfilling of all righteousness, but does not the Lord graciously give angelic ministry in that regard?

J.T. Quite so. The next thing that comes in is the question of our food.

J.J. Would you say the last two verses of chapter 3 go with the last two verses of the gospel, "baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and

of the Holy Spirit"? The three Persons are presented in this chapter.

J.T. The point for our souls here is, that the Father and the Spirit are engaged with Christ, but as fulfilling all righteousness, as coming up straightway out of the water.

H.D'A.C. In fulfilling all righteousness, was not the public position of Christ entirely altered by His baptism? Before the baptism, He was in a kind of way identified with the whole nation, and they were not really penitent, but now He is identified with the penitent only, and those waiting and looking for Christ.

J.T. The position is changed, as you say, and it is touching that the Lord did not take the lead in this movement. There are movements in which He leads, but there are movements which He joins. Luke says, "all the people having been baptised, and Jesus having been baptised ..." He came into it as it was proceeding -- That is. He gives fulness and completeness to every movement; there can be no fulness or completeness in any movement without Him.

M.W.B. Do you think the Lord gave the lead in taking the position as coming up out of Egypt, and that the people had to be morally adjusted before He could identify Himself with them?

J.T. That is right. He did not have to go up through the Red Sea. The allusion in chapter 2 would be that He came out in personal right from Egypt. The baptism of John was equivalent to the Red Sea for the Israelites; that is, we have to go through that way. It is a testimony to His Person.

M.W.B. Would there be in like manner the thought morally of Emmanuel in the Lord supporting those who were godly in their position taken?

J.T. He gives fulness and completeness to the movement. Of what value could it be aside from His joining in it? The bearing of it was death. The deluge is baptism, the Red Sea is baptism, the Jordan is baptism,

and the Lord gives fulness to it. The idea of "all righteousness" enters into it, and aside from that idea, baptism must be a dead letter. It is a question of all righteousness. It is not a mere ceremony, it is a matter of righteousness.

Ques. Is the thought of manhood emphasised in chapter 4? The quotations are generally from the book of Deuteronomy.

J.T. Exactly. The Son of God is announced; He is there as One who fulfils all righteousness, and as owned from heaven by the Father. Well, the next thing is, can Satan use this to take Him out of His place as Man? It was as Man He was owned as Son, as fulfilling all righteousness. Can the enemy use this great fact, and turn it against the Lord to induce Him to leave man's place? In truth it was as Man He was owned as Son, that is the point, the One fulfilling all righteousness. It is Satan endeavouring to take the truth out of its setting, to turn the idea of Son of God so as to take the Lord Jesus out of the place that is involved in that relation. It is a futile effort, but an effort such as he is capable of.

P.L. Was it not an effort to divert the Lord from the position of dependence taken up in manhood?

J.T. It is a bold effort of the enemy here to turn the idea of sonship against its setting in manhood, whereas the announcement from heaven alluded to Him as coming up out of the water as fulfilling all righteousness.

A.J.G. So was not the devil's first word to the Lord a suggestion that would connect sonship with deity?

J.T. That is what he was at, to abstract the Lord in His mind from what He really was here on earth. The whole point was that a Man had come in to satisfy the heart of the Father. It is a question of manhood, and Satan would divert the Lord's mind, if it were possible, from His actual position as Man here, which was one of dependence.

E.J.McB. Is not that the reason why it is said He was carried up into the wilderness?

J.T. That is what I understand. It is a very remarkable thing, that, owned here in manhood as the delight of heaven, and the Holy Spirit coming upon Him, He is carried up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Ques. Would it correspond with the end of the first book of Psalms, where the prophetic language of the Lord is, "thou upholdest me in mine integrity, and settest me before thy face for ever", Psalm 41:12?

J.T. No doubt; but the position of the Lord here is wonderful, that is, although owned as Son, He is carried up by the Spirit into the wilderness, and the enemy's bold effort is to abstract the idea of sonship from Him as Man and use it against the dependence that is proper to man. I think that is his present effort, too.

Ques. Is that why he is referred to in this passage as the tempter, the devil, and Satan; using every resource under his control to bring the Lord out of the position He had taken and in which He was owned from heaven, and thus nullify it?

J.T. It is a very bold effort. It says, "the tempter coming up to him said, ..." It is remarkable; he comes up to Him, and says, "If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones may become loaves of bread". That is, he uses the idea of sonship to divert the Lord from what is proper to manhood, to which sonship belongs. Nothing is plainer in Scripture than that man's place is one of obedience to God, and to use the idea of the sonship of Christ to weaken His manhood or divert Him from it, is a bold effort.

E.C.R. Therefore the Lord's answer is magnificent, "Man shall not live by bread alone".

J.T. Exactly. As Man He was owned from heaven as Son, and when He used the word "Man" as to

Himself, He had no such thought as to exclude the idea of sonship from it; it belonged to it.

J.J. It is sorrowful to note that the enemy's effort is still to connect the idea of sonship with deity in the absolute and not with manhood.

J.T. I think it is fair to speak of it in this way. This is the first recorded direct personal attack of Satan against the Lord, and it is to nullify the great truth of sonship owned in Him as Man by the Father. He came up to the Lord boldly, and introduced this thought to take Him off the ground of true manhood, as if sonship did not belong to that, whereas sonship is proper to manhood, and hence the Lord's answer stresses obedience as marking the place He had taken as Son.

CHRIST'S SONSHIP IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (3)

Matthew 11:1 - 30

J.T. We were remarking as to the first onslaught of the tempter, that his effort was to sever the idea of the Lord's sonship from His manhood, whereas the Lord immediately says "Man", meaning that His sonship involved His manhood. Although Son, He was in the position of man -- the very relationship involved that. I believe the Lord meant that; so the first thought of the tempter was to take Him out of the position of dependence as man, in regard to His circumstances, His food. Then it will be observed that the second temptation in Matthew is religious. There is a transposition in Luke; the religious comes third, but in Matthew it is second.

A.S.L. Why is the order different in Matthew and Luke?

J.T. Matthew is intended for Jewish christians primarily, and the political side would not be first with them; the temple would have the chief place with them. Luke would bear more on the gentiles, and the political aspect would be more prominent with them. That is what I understand. Matthew bears on Jerusalem; Luke bears on humanity, the nations. So here in Matthew we have the temple first: "the devil takes him to the holy city, and sets him upon the edge of the temple, and says to him, If thou be Son of God cast thyself down".

P.T.F. Why does the Lord submit Himself to the devil?

J.T. He is carried into the wilderness by the Spirit for that purpose, hence He allows Satan to do this. It brings out His subjection in a striking way. He must have recoiled from it; it must have been a dreadful thing for Him; but it was a matter, speaking reverently,

of the Spirit; He "was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil". He would not go up of Himself, nor should any of us put ourselves in the way of evil, save as God directs us and puts us in that way for the testimony.

A.J.G. What is the special challenge to sonship in this second temptation?

J.T. The enemy seems to accept that it involved manhood -- he is forced to accept it -- because he says, "If thou be Son of God cast thyself down; for it is written, He shall give charge to his angels concerning thee, and on their hands shall they bear thee". He admits in these second remarks, pernicious though they were, that sonship involves manhood and dependence upon God.

A.S.L. Why would you say sonship refers only to manhood?

J.T. Much has been said to make this clear, and without enlarging on it here, I think the Lord means this in using the word "Man" in His first answer to the devil. It implies that sonship is in manhood; it involves His human estate, and Satan is forced to concede this in the second temptation.

Ques. Is that because manhood involves dependence?

J.T. Exactly; Satan admits that as Son the Lord is dependent, quoting (or, rather, misquoting) the psalm, that God would give His angels charge concerning Him. If His sonship were in deity absolutely, there would be no need of angels looking after Him. Satan is forced to admit that sonship involves manhood, but then, he would tempt the Lord to do something that was unnecessary. Why should He cast Himself down to prove that God would take care of Him?

S.J.B.C. Is there any difference between the Son and the Son of God? "No one knows the Son but the Father". The devil speaks to the Lord as Son of God.

J.T. There is a difference. The term "Son" is more defined as to His Person, as marking Him off

thus from the saints, but the appellation "Son of God" makes room for others. The Son is thus more defined as to His Person, but still it is the Person in manhood.

H.E.S. Is the title Son of God more characteristic, and the Son more personal?

J.T. That is right. Son of God brings out the order of Man as marking Him. The Son is more distinctive as to His Person.

Eu.R. As to chapter 4, is it your thought that the Lord Jesus here is a pattern in relation to the three problems that we are faced with in wilderness conditions, in relation to the testimony?

J.T. Yes. The first deals with ordinary circumstances; the second having a religious setting in Matthew, and is a very fruitful field for the devil to suggest that we should aspire to prominence in the service; and then the third is political, and although it might be assumed that this can hardly apply to christians, it does so; we are far more national than we like to admit. "The devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shews him all the kingdoms of the world ... and says to him, All these things will I give thee if, falling down, thou wilt do me homage".

D.L.H. Did all these things take place in the wilderness? It would appear that the Lord left the wilderness actually to go to Jerusalem.

J.T. It would appear so. It is difficult just to understand how all this happened; we can hardly compass it. We must accept that Satan took Him in some sense to the pinnacle of the temple physically, and that he took Him to a high mountain physically. As to how it happened actually we have to leave and accept Scripture; but, as you say, He necessarily left the wilderness, to reach the pinnacle of the temple. The idea of being in the wilderness, is that He is outside of all human support. It is a question of a single-handed matter between Himself and the devil; there is no one else in view.

D.L.H. Then would it be permissible to think that the Lord was taken to the pinnacle of the temple in mind, or was it in actuality?

J.T. I should like to accept the word as it is. "The devil takes him", it says. It would be rather dangerous to say it was merely in mind. The Spirit of God presents things to affect our minds without making everything known to us; He is not obliged to. We have to accept in our minds the plain statement, "the devil takes him to the holy city, and sets him upon the edge of the temple", and again, "the devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shews him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory". The Spirit of God intends that that should impress our minds.

D.L.H. The terms of the scripture would assume that the Lord did actually go to Jerusalem, and also to the high mountain.

J.T. And it brings out the holy submission of our Lord in that the Holy Spirit carried Him up into the wilderness to be tempted, and that He allowed Himself to be taken by the tempter. The ordeal must have been dreadful to Him, but obedience enabled Him to go through it. The lesson for us is that we are not to put ourselves in the way of evil, or attempt even to meet it, aside from divine direction or from the needs of the testimony. It is just what the will of God requires. The Spirit carried Him up into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. It is to bring out the perfection of His obedience.

Ques. Does the expression, "the Lord thy God", involve manhood?

J.T. Certainly. You cannot conceive of one divine Person viewed abstractly in the Deity calling another His God. It refers to manhood, and the Lord takes Deuteronomic ground in these temptations, meaning that He did not need to go through the wilderness to learn, as we do. In the position of obedience He took Deuteronomic ground.

S.J.B.C. Would the forty days in the wilderness answer to the forty years of Israel's temptation?

J.T. No doubt; it was Deuteronomic ground.

Ques. Is there any significance in the use of the word "up" in chapter 4: 1? It is the only instance where it is used of the wilderness.

J.T. It was physically so. The Jordan is very low. But there may be a significance in it, that He went up from the place of death.

A.S.L. Does it not very much enhance the account of the temptations that it was when the forty days' temptations were over that these three last supreme tests came in, for it says in Luke, "Jesus ... was led by the Spirit in the wilderness forty days, tempted of the devil; and in those days he did not eat anything, and when they were finished he hungered"? There was the reality of His manhood and the need of sustenance, and it was at that juncture particularly that Satan came in with these temptations.

J.T. Quite so. Here it says, "having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he hungered. And the tempter coming up to him said ..." As we noted yesterday, it shows the boldness of his effort.

H.M.S. With regard to verse 10, reference was made to Exodus 4, where it is said, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". Are we to regard the Lord Jesus as claiming the place of Son that He might serve God?

A.S.L. The word here is "worship".

J.T. It is the idea of serving God, that we might serve Him in the sanctuary. I understand it is the full thought involving worship, so that the Lord, as you say, would have in mind the divine thought in taking Israel out of Egypt, that they might serve Him in the wilderness. It is now fully seen in Christ. In the presence of the severest temptation He retains this ground, that if any one is to be worshipped it must be God: "Thou shalt do homage to the Lord thy God, and him alone shalt thou serve". So that the victory

is complete, and "the devil leaves him", it says; and then "angels came and ministered to him". That is, He has no angelic support until the victory is complete.

Ques. How do you distinguish between worship and doing homage?

J.T. There is not much difference. The word which is translated "homage" is also used for worship in the highest sense in John 4. We have to learn what it means in its context. The idea of the original word "worship" in John 4 is a moving forward or towards each other, the idea of prostration before another, but as full of regard and affection for the person.

A.S.L. The word "serve" is lower and more general, "Let my son go, that he may serve me"; it came out afterwards in the wilderness.

J.T. The order of the service was opened up at Sinai, what God had in mind. It was reduced to the house of Aaron, but Israel was represented there.

S.J.B.C. Your remark about worship and understanding what is meant is very good, that we have to look at the context always, for it is a word having a broad meaning.

J.T. It is a very important thing in regard of that word particularly; we cannot always attach exactly the same meaning to it. There is a fulness in John 4 which is not always elsewhere.

But our subject requires that we hasten on to chapter 11, and what may be further remarked as to the introduction of it in this section -- chapters 3 and 4 -- is that the Lord is Son. We have to bear in mind that the introduction of sonship in each section bears on the chapters that follow, until we reach the next reference; that is, this section bears on the following chapters until we come to chapter 11. So, as Satan left the Lord, we are told, "having heard that John was delivered up, he departed into Galilee, and having left Nazareth; he went and dwelt at Capernaum", and then it says, quoting Isaiah, "Land of Zabulon and land of Nepthalim,

way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations -- the people sitting in darkness has seen a great light, and to those sitting in the country and shadow of death, to them has light sprung up". We may notice here that light is springing up, a great testimony to the Person, that the light was in Him, as it were, originating there. It sprang up, not shone down, but sprang up. Then we have the idea of His teaching and followers, for the Lord is now acquiring His normal place. Satan is left behind vanquished, and the Lord respects the ministry that preceded Him; He waited till He heard that John was cast into prison -- beautiful dependence and regard for levitical principles in the service. Although Son, and having all rights, yet He abides by levitical principles. Then another thing, He leaves one place to go to another, the move involving real physical hardship, for it was to Capernaum, which was very much below the level of the sea. But the Lord disregards all that, leaving one place for another, because the testimony required it. The Sea of Galilee, on which Capernaum was, was to be the centre of the testimony, a despised place, but although Son He accepts it, and moves there evidently carrying out the will of God; indeed light springs up, showing how completely superior He is to the circumstances. Then He has followers in Peter and Andrew, and James and John, and then we have the great general result of His testimony, which Matthew hastens to give us.

J.J.T. Is it the light of sonship in a Man that springs up?

J.T. It is more than the light of sonship; there is the idea of life. We have to bear in mind, "In him was life"; that is really the secret of the light springing up. "The life was the light of men"; what was there was unhindered by circumstances, it sprang up.

M.W.B. If it is not diverting you, why is the reference to the nations brought in so early in this book, "Galilee of the nations"?

J.T. It is with a view to what is in mind in Matthew,

that God had the assembly before Him. You have the same thought in chapter 16, where at Caesarea-Philippi He brings out the thought of the assembly. Matthew has in mind to appeal to the Jewish christians, corresponding with the appeal to christians in human organisations today, but he warns us by these early references to the nations that God is not confined to them: He goes beyond them, I think that is the idea.

Eu.R. Not only is Satan vanquished, but every condition he has introduced into the world is met in chapter 4.

J.T. The great effort of Satan's attack is met in all its phases. It is a wonderful epitome of the Lord's work, as we read: "Jesus went round the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness among the people. And his fame went out into the whole of Syria, and they brought to him all that were ill, suffering under various diseases and pains, and those possessed by demons, and lunatics, and paralytics; and he healed them" (chapter 4: 23, 24). It is a wonderful epitome of the works of Christ, who "went about doing good ... for God was with him". It includes lunacy; Matthew is the only one who mentions lunacy, the most difficult of all diseases, but it fled before the Lord.

H.F.N. Would you say a word with regard to the order? It says. He "went round the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness". We have the teaching and then the preaching and then the healing: why is it in that order?

J.T. I do not know. Your thought may be that the healing should come first as a testimony?

H.F.N. Normally speaking, we begin with the preaching, but here in the Lord's service we have the thought of teaching first, and then the preaching, and

finally healing. May it be because of its reference to the professed people of God?

J.T. I was going to remark that it has to do with the acknowledged profession that God owned as judaism, and as christianity now, and when apostasy and defection have set in, the great need is teaching. I believe that is the need today.

M.W.B. The order in the end of chapter 9 is almost similar to this (verses 35, 36).

J.T. Yes, but more contracted.

Eu.R. Does it suggest that, before we can consider the Person of the Son, we need to prove the Lord's ministry on our side, so to speak, in this healing way?

J.T. Quite so. The order of His service is remarkable. Attention is called to the end of chapter 9, which is a very similar passage, but not so extensive. We have the great general result in chapter 4 which is fitting. A great Personage having come in, you have His triumph over the greatest enemy, and then what He is Himself in living power here, that is, life was in Him. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4. He is unhampered by the circumstances at Capernaum; a light has sprung up, that is, the whole scene is illuminated, and then He preaches and calls followers, and then there is the great general result of His service, the result to sufferers, as such. He overcomes all the ills that sin has brought in, and breaks the enemy's power.

J.T.S. Is that the reason why it is said that His fame went out -- in this connection?

J.T. It went out towards the Gentile world. Whilst it is primarily to Israel, it cannot be hid; it goes beyond Israel's bounds: "his fame went out into the whole of Syria".

D.L.H. Is it not to be noticed that the Lord teaches in the synagogues, but He preaches more publicly? The teaching would seem to refer to those who were already in ostensible relationship with God.

J.T. That is true, and applies today. What our

brethren in those places of organised religion need is teaching. In this chapter, the preaching follows, not the teaching, but the light, "From that time began Jesus to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh". That is, He is announcing a new system, but consequent upon the light that had sprung up.

A.S.L. Is not this a wonderful epitome of the truth of the kingdom, at the end of chapter 4?

J.T. It is. The Lord says later, "if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then indeed the kingdom of God is come upon you", Matthew 12:28.

H.F.N. Had you a spiritual thought in mind when you emphasised lunacy?

J.T. Only that it is the most difficult of all diseases to deal with; indeed, it is beyond human ability.

P.L. Would it bear on the thought of Matthew being the assembly gospel, that such persons would be secured in intelligence for the assembly?

J.T. There is a means of dealing with all these matters. The saints are never at a loss, although we may have to contend with things that are beyond us. If we turn to the wall like Hezekiah, God will come in for us, that is, nothing is impossible; even lunacy, as it affects the testimony, can be met.

A.S.L. Would you say that the great characteristic of the kingdom of God is the finger of God? "But if by the finger of God I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God is come upon you", Luke 11:20.

J.T. The finger means that God deals with things in detail with the utmost care. Then the Spirit of God is the power, showing that the Lord, although divine Himself as here in manhood, operated by the Spirit, and that same power is available to us, showing that He brings us into the power that He used.

J.J. Would you say a word as to chapters 5, 6, and 7?

J.T. I was just going to remark that they bring out the full result which is in view. The Lord goes up into

the mountain, that is, He is not going to inaugurate a system of things on man's level. It is a wonderful testimony. God and men together, but it is not to be organised on the low level of man. The Lord has in mind to open up a new order of things, one of His own, in which He dominates; He goes up into a mountain. Matthew reminds us from the outset that the new order of things involves energy and exercise, and so you find mountains, as we have often remarked. I think there are seven in number in this book. We cannot go into them now, but it is well to remember there are these mountains, with a certain teaching attaching to each one. We have already alluded to the "high mountain" to which Satan brought the Lord, but this one in chapter 5 is the mount of legislation. The Lord legislated for the new order of things, and if we are to have part in it we must go up there. In Luke He stood on the plain, but in Matthew it is a question of power to go up.

A.J.G. Is that because the assembly is in view?

J.T. It is to prepare the way for faith, for the new order of things that Christ is to dominate. So, after He comes down from the mount in chapter 8, the crowds are still there, and there is a leper, and the Lord heals him by touching him. He is dealing now with sin directly -- dealing with a state of sin -- and He sends the man to show himself to the priest. It is what the person of the believer is in the testimony. That is what comes out, because chapters 8 and 9 are simply dealing with isolated and specific cases. We have the great epitome in chapter 4. The first specific case is a leper, and he is to show himself to the priest. If the believer is to be on this ground, the principle is that he is to show himself for testimony to them, whether they accept it or not.

M.W.B. Is there a moral breaking of the yoke referred to in Isaiah 9, immediately after the introduction of Christ, breaking the yoke from off the shoulders of

these believers? The passage in Isaiah 9 refers to the light springing up, to which we have alluded, and then goes on, "For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian ... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given" (verses 4 - 6). I wondered whether these two chapters would supply that morally.

J.T. Very good, "A child is born ... a son is given"; it meets the whole position. These specific cases in chapters 8 and 9 cannot be dwelt on severally, but they come into the section with chapters 3 and 4. The healing of the leper is first, and he is to show himself, meaning that the believer is brought now to have part in the testimony, not by gift or ministry, but by what he is himself.

A.S.L. That would be the testimony collectively -- hosts of cleansed lepers showing themselves.

J.T. Exactly.

Eu.R. So, in answer to John's question in chapter 11, the Lord could say, "Go, report to John what ye hear and see". He calls attention to these healed cases that were present as evidence of His works of power.

J.T. The lists of His works in this gospel are very remarkable: the first in chapter 4 and then in chapter 9, verses 35 and 36, and then in chapter 11. The message to John is, "Blind men see and lame walk; lepers are cleansed, and deaf hear; and dead are raised, and poor have glad tidings preached to them". It is no mere theoretic thing, but practical; and the cleansed leper is the first great result: you are to show yourself.

F.W.W. Are we to regard that from chapter 4 God is speaking to us "in Son"?

J.T. Yes; we might link it on with Hebrews, which was written to a similar class of people; it had the same class of persons in view as Matthew, and sonship is emphasised in Matthew, not only in regard to the Lord's Person, but in the way it enters into the testimony and into the truth of the assembly. John has in mind His

Person in abstract deity; Matthew would show us how sonship enters into the testimony and the Service, so that as Hebrews says, "God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has spoken to us in [the person of the] Son". The point is the speaking is "in Son", a divine Person in that relation, so that it was God Himself speaking.

F.W.W. That is emphasised again in chapter 17.

J.T. We shall come to that in regard of the assembly's foundation, and the service or functioning of the assembly in chapter 18. The personnel that enters into the assembly is in mind from chapter 17 to the end of chapter 18, which is another section.

Eu.R. Should we be in the assembly now as persons who were blind, and see; and lepers who are cleansed; and lame who can walk on both feet?

J.T. That is what Matthew brings out. In the great epitome in chapter 4, things are presented from the standpoint of what the Lord did, but chapter 11 is more the effect -- what the people see. After the epitome of chapter 9, we have the apostles. Now we have material, as the result of the Lord's work for the great ministry. We have already touched on ministry, not as ordained by Christ as Man here, but in John the baptist coming down from the Old Testament. "The law and the prophets were until John"; he was the end of all that, and he is brought in in chapter 11 to confirm the truth that the law perfected nothing, even John perfected nothing. It is not to discredit John, but to bring out the principle that perfection is not in that order of things, but in the Son; finality is in the Son.

S.J.B.C. What the Lord told them to tell John is almost a quotation from Isaiah 35"Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf be unstopped; then shall the lame man leap as a hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing" (verses 5, 6).

J.T. It stresses the idea of results; that is the thing.

We want results; God wants results. Of what value is ministry apart from results?

Eu.R. And results that call attention to the Person: "blessed is whosoever shall not be offended in me". It is the Me that is drawn attention to.

J.T. That is the thing. God is looking for results, and that is what the Lord stresses when He speaks to John. The law really perfected nothing; results according to God must come in through Christ and by the Spirit, in christianity.

Ques. In Isaiah 35 the word is, "behold your God ... He will come himself, and save you" (verse 4). Is that God speaking in Son?

J.T. Exactly; that is what we had yesterday in chapter 1: "God with us"; He is now to be seen. It is God in a moral way, but nevertheless there, not as He was seen in the prophets, but in a Person who is Himself God, and the results are there.

E.G. Would you say a word on the last clause of verse 3? "Art thou the coming one? or are we to wait for another?" John does not seem to acknowledge the Person.

J.T. He had lost faith. Whilst John the evangelist does not say anything about this in recording the ministry of John the baptist, Matthew stresses the failure of John at this juncture, and, of course, it would imply that he had lost the truth of the Person he had so beautifully testified to earlier. According to John 1:15, he said, "He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me". Now he has lost heart as to Him.

Now you will notice in chapter 10 what is implied in ministry. John the baptist represented it, as we had yesterday, but in chapter 10, after the references to the Lord's works in chapters 4 - 9, we have the twelve: "having called to him his twelve disciples", meaning the cream of the result for God, as we might say, twelve being a number representing potentiality, in

the activity of love. The use of this numeral in Scripture confirms this; particularly in the tribes of Israel. What can be divinely realised apart from those in whom love can be active? The numeral twelve denoting that they can be manipulated according to love. The exactions are heavy, but "Love never fails". The chapter has to be read carefully by those who serve, but love would take us through all that. Then, at the end of the chapter there is the great thought of representation. The outcome of the Lord's works involves representation: "He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward". That is, the idea of the representation of God here is brought down even to a disciple. It brings out the greatness of the work of God, as brought out in the number twelve and worked out in love.

J.O.S. Would you say a word as to "the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you"?

J.T. The idea of "your Father" is brought in informally in Matthew. The Lord does not say, "my Father and your Father", in Matthew. The idea is brought in informally, which is characteristic of Matthew, that His Father really is ours, and that it is His Spirit that speaks through the ministers, viewed under the heading of the twelve.

H.F.N. Is your thought that this representation is the result of the ministry of the twelve as serving in love?

J.T. That is the idea. The place representation has in the chapter is the moral outcome of the activity of love, for after all, "God is love", and this in a moral sense, in the way He acts and has come out. So as

the saints serve in love, to that extent they represent God, and then the disciple acquires such a place that a reward is attached to what is given in his name.

H.F.N. Would these features -- the prophet, the righteous man, and the disciple -- represent certain divine principles?

J.T. We might profitably run over them, as to what they mean, from God down. There is Christ, then a prophet, then a righteous man, and then a disciple. There is the idea of the representation of God in each.

H.F.N. Might we regard the prophet in that way as one bringing in the light of God's world, and the righteous man as establishing the principles of it, and the disciple as showing its true character?

J.T. A disciple is one who has learnt or who is learning. There is not so much said about him as the others, but still there is a reward attaching to giving a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple.

E.J.McB. Would the thought be that when the leper showed himself as cleansed to the priest, he manifested what was done in him, but when the man sets a thing forth representatively he is rather describing the One who did it?

J.T. Exactly, he brings God in, and it is well to bear that in mind. It is a question of the representation of God, from Himself down to a disciple. Think of a disciple having a name! It lifts an ordinary Christian above the level of men. He has a name: "in the name of a disciple". This principle is really worked out in Moses' rod (as we had it last evening), indicating experience. It is a question of experience, that God brings us to His side of things by what He does in us. He brought Moses to His side, and then said to him that he would be God to Pharaoh -- the article should not be there. It is not that he would be a god; that would make him a god in himself, a different person -- that is not the idea. It is that God Himself was represented in Moses, and Aaron was to be his prophet. That

runs through, and under the heading of the twelve we have the acme, as we may say, of the law in this section, love working out -- and love is of God. "God is love", and in the measure in which that is expressed, God is expressed, and God is represented down to a disciple.

Eu.R. This last verse would be a great stimulus to simple acts of love amongst the saints generally in every locality, and would elevate them to this character -- hospitality and all that kind of thing.

J.T. Quite so; it is representative of God.

W.C. Would the reference to receiving imply reproach, for the whole position is that? So that what is genuinely the work of God is separated from what is merely profession.

J.T. Exactly. These terms -- prophet, righteous man, and disciple -- allude to what is genuine, what is representative of God. There may be reproach attaching to receiving them, and hence the reward.

S.J.B.C. Why does He bring in "one of these little ones"?

J.T. "Whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water"; I suppose you are one of those. It suggests that you are an object of care.

H.E.S. You said that Matthew sets forth what is maintained here. Are we to understand it is set forth, not only in Christ personally, but in those who represent Him, and these works are the result of it?

J.T. That is right. It all works up to chapter 16, where we have the assembly, which is to bear the brunt of everything, and then in chapter 18 you see it functioning. So that it is a question of what is of God here in a moral way in us.

H.F.N. What is the distinctive feature of sonship in chapter 11?

J.T. A further feature is brought into view as following upon the greatest born of women -- that is, John the baptist. What hope would there be in any

one's heart other than that of Jesus under these circumstances? Chapter 11 brings out the complete breakdown of everything that had been representative of God: even the greatest of those born of women would seem to have failed. But the Lord is careful to distinguish between John and the cities where he had been labouring; that is, He shows infinite divine fairness to those who are in the testimony. He says beautiful things about John; He says nothing against him. John's questions are only recorded to show where he was for the moment, but the Lord's tributes are beautiful, and ought to be assuring to every servant. How fair He is in appraising what is done! But then there were the cities, as it says, "in which most of his works of power had taken place", that is, the area of those works of power and corresponding today with the area in which the Holy Spirit has been operating. Take this land, for instance. What testimony has been rendered! What power has been shown! And it is most solemn that the Lord is raising the question here as to the area in which most of His works of power had taken place, and what the result would be. As it says, "Woe to thee, Chorazin! woe to thee, Bethsaida! for if the works of power which have taken place in you, had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, they had long ago repented in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, that it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in judgment-day than for you. And thou, Capernaum, who hast been raised up to heaven ..." These are very solemn things as regards the area in which the testimony has been carried on in our times. Taking them to heart, we see how right feelings should prevail in the presence of this terrible rebuke of the Lord to the areas in which the testimony has been carried on, but then, on the other hand, we see the buoyancy of sonship in Him, the buoyancy of Christ Himself. As it says, "At that time, Jesus answering said, I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth ..."

A.J.G. Was that because the Father and His will were more to the Lord than His service?

J.T. Exactly, and if everything appeared to fail at this juncture, after all, God is supreme, as He says, "Lord of the heaven and of the earth", and He is acting now from Himself sovereignly, carrying on His work from His own point of view, hiding things from some, and revealing them to others, hiding things from the wise and prudent, and revealing them to babes. So the little ones, the babes, are the safe ones; those of no account are the ones that get the light from the Father.

J.J. Would it be right to say that the Lord is speaking here as the second Man from heaven in this part of the gospel, whereas previously it was as the last Adam?

J.T. I think that would be right. It is a question of the life-giving Spirit. It is not only now a new order of things legislatively, as in chapters 5 to 7, but we are now approaching a new order of things in life, in quickening power. "Babes" denote the beginning of a new and living order of things. The Father is disclosing things to the babes who have to learn everything.

J.J. Would that not turn on the character of the second Man out of heaven?

J.T. Quite so: "such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Corinthians 15:48.

A.S.L. In saying, "Lord of the heaven and of the earth", does the Lord maintain His place of service? Because He Himself is Lord of heaven and earth, but has not yet taken that place.

J.T. It is to bring out what is at the end of the gospel -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is now brought into view as operating from His own point of view, and the Son is buoyant in it. He is an example for us when things look dark; they are really brightest if there is opportunity for God to come in.

F.C.H. What is the force of the expression, "Jesus answering said ..."?

J.T. I suppose the allusion would be to what was going on between Himself and His Father. It is a spiritual suggestion; I mean, it is like the turning of the corner where there is the greatest pressure (Nehemiah 3:24). It is more inward now, as David built inward. There is the great general outline of the city to be built, but it is inward here. Really this touches on John's gospel, and we have to learn to look inward and see what is going on between divine Persons. It is a wonderful thought, and glory seems to be opened up to us a little, "Jesus answering". Whom is He answering? He is speaking to His Father; it is an inward thing, and we have to learn what building inward means (2 Samuel 5:9). We are now approaching the level of the assembly and we have to understand this inward thing, what is going on between the Father and the Son here in manhood.

E.J.McB. Would not all those activities and the mighty works that had been refused but open the way for the development of the inward side?

J.T. He is in the presence of His Father here. That is, those of us who have had any little spiritual access to God as entering the holiest, see everything according to God. There is not a thing wanting; all His thoughts are there. But we see things are not right where we are, but the answer is, "I praise thee, Father ..." God will come in, and He has got His own thoughts.

S.J.B.C. Then He speaks of the Father as "Lord of the heaven and of the earth"; would that bring in the sovereignty of God?

J.T. Yes; as sovereign Ruler He has right of way.

H.D'A.C. It is most encouraging at the present time, when outwardly things are very poor and small, that the Lord is teaching us to fall back upon divine counsels and the operations of divine Persons.

J.T. God would put it upon us as to what we think of things around, of current things, what is going on in christendom, that we should feel things; and what

hope is there for us but in this answer, "I praise thee, Father". God will meet the whole position, and is meeting it. Still, it is important to have a right estimate of everything. "God has judged your judgment upon her", Revelation 18:20. That is, God expects us to have a judgment as to what is current in the world.

P.L. Is it encouraging that the epitome of good in the movements of Jesus is brought in before the epitome of evil as suggested here?

J.T. That is very good, and the answer to everything is the Father who is the sovereign Ruler of heaven and earth. When the ark went into the Jordan, it was as "the ark of Jehovah, the Lord of all the earth", that is, He had right of way, and now He has right of way in heaven, too. So there is every encouragement, and hence the Lord rejoices and says, "I praise thee, Father". So God would have us in a state of holy spiritual buoyancy, and yet feeling things, so that the worship of God goes on in what is outwardly the darkest moment.

Rem. In Isaiah 49 it says, "I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought and in vain; nevertheless my judgment is with Jehovah, and my work with my God" (verse 4); and then Jehovah's answer is, "that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth" (verse 6).

J.T. His judgment was with Jehovah. The Lord felt the thing -- that is a point to be noticed -- but in feeling it He was superior to it, and the service of God went on. What a note that was for the Father under those circumstances! "I praise thee, Father"; and that praise goes on all the time; the Lord maintains it.

P.H.H. In connection with that, would you say a word about the "well-pleasing" in verse 26, and then in verse 27, "he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him".

J.T. The Lord says to the Father, "Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight". It is the idea of divine pleasure entering into these things.

J.J. Would you say there was a close connection between the revealing here and that in chapter 16?

J.T. The revelation in chapter 16, as we shall hope to see, is by the Father. The Father reveals things to the babes, but in chapter 16 it is more than things. The things that are hid from the wise and prudent are revealed to the babes, but what was revealed to Peter goes beyond that.

J.J. I was thinking that as the Son is calling to Himself here as the centre, the revelation would be of a similar character, although more advanced, in chapter 16.

J.T. It is the Father's action. It brings out here the Father's activities as to the babes; He reveals to them, meaning that those of us who take the low place, get the revelation from the Father of things that are hidden from the wise and prudent. Sonship and many other precious things; things which are hidden from the great teachers of christendom, God is pleased to open up to any of us who take a low place.

J.T.S. Is the position at the present time at all like Thyatira? "I gave her time that she should repent" -- was that to be felt? But then in Philadelphia, "thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name" -- are we coming now into the region of divine pleasure?

J.T. Very good. The position today is very similar to what is depicted in this chapter, the wise and prudent alluding to the leaders in christendom, those who say they know and see, but as the Lord says, "now ye say, We see, your sin remains", John 9:41. But the Father proceeds, and will proceed, till the end of the dispensation, to unfold things to the babes. So the position now is that of babes who are in the hands of the Father.

M.W.B. Is there the thought in the babe suggestive of the condition that would prove that "God is with us"?

J.T. It is the believer viewed potentially. The babes

represent a state that is taken on which is impressionable. The term is not used in any reproachful sense, but indicates a condition that can be built up from the very bottom, and the Father has us in hand in that way. There is nothing to set aside in a babe in relation to what is acquired; he is available as in the Father's hands for impressions from Him.

Eu.R. Does not the Lord stand in relation to us as the Father did to Him? I was thinking of the expression in the last chapter, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth". That verse precedes the one as to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The power is available now in relation to the development of what is pleasing to God.

J.T. It says, "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". This is exclusive at this juncture. The Lord is shutting out the wise and prudent from this great knowledge, this inward thing. There is an inwardness in the position of Christ in this world. Matthew has been dealing with the outwardness of the testimony, the springing up of light, the great works, and so forth; but now there is an inwardness coming into view and a corresponding exclusiveness, for what is in view is outside the range of the greatest men viewed as men. "No one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". As has been remarked before, and as the note in the New Translation indicates, it is not a question of His external position as marked off by works of power as the Son of God, but the infinite inwardness of the thing that is impenetrable, not merely an external knowledge which is possible, but a real knowledge of His Person is beyond any and every creature.

H.E.S. Is there the thought both of heart and mind

in those two verses? With regard to the things revealed, is it a question of the mind particularly, but with regard to the Person is it really a question of the heart?

J.T. Just so; the mind must have to do with knowledge.

Ques. Has the expression in Proverbs 9 any bearing on what you are saying? "The knowledge of the Holy is intelligence" (verse 10).

J.T. It has. The "knowledge of the Holy" is no part of the curriculum of the universities, but it is everything in regard of this inwardness that we are speaking of. We may go a certain way in the inwardness in regard of the Son, what He is, but a real knowledge of Him is beyond us. Yet the Lord would lead us a long way; He would convey to us that there is much opened up to us -- the "knowledge of the Holy".

D.L.H. Would you say something as to the contrast between the full knowledge of the Son of God as in Ephesians, and this thought that no one knows the Son but the Father?

J.T. That links on with what has already been before us as to the bearing of the appellation, Son of God. Whilst involving His Person as Man, and the Leader of a race, others are brought into that relation. So that Ephesians 4 would be Christ known as the Son of God, and as such coming under the notice of John, for instance, and others who "contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1:14. They had a view of Him as Man in His relations with His Father, and in that way they were admitted into much. When we come to John 17, for instance, the Lord "lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal ... and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world

was". You can see how those listening -- John, for instance, who had a place in His bosom (what inwardness would be there, especially!) -- as they got the Spirit afterwards would have power of inward perception as to sonship in Christ and as to that in which they had part. But then, there would always be this, "no one knows the Son but the Father". There is a point beyond which we cannot penetrate, and I believe that is what is in view. But still, the thought of inwardness and the "knowledge of the Holy", as has been remarked, the acceptance of the babe state, the impressionableness, are all in view here.

A.S.L. In Revelation 19, His name is called "The Word of God", and then, in the same connection, He had "a name written which no one knows but himself".

J.T. There you have the inscrutableness of it.

D.L.H. I only thought "the Son" was, as we may say, exclusive; no one can come into that title; but we do have part in sonship in association with Him as sons of God.

J.T. That is what Ephesians 4 contemplates, but the title "the Son" here, is really to direct our minds to the Person in His inscrutableness.

J.J. Why is this inscrutableness brought into this assembly gospel here?

J.T. To educate us as to the inwardness of christianity, how much there is, and yet there is a point beyond which we cannot go. This is the beginning of assembly instruction directly, and this thought of inwardness should be kept in view, the infiniteness of it.

E.J.McB. I was wondering whether this would not draw attention to the Son as being able to reveal, and give Him a peculiar place with us.

J.T. It does; it places Him as Man on equality with the Father; He is pleased to reveal the Father. You could not think of a stronger statement of His deity in manhood than that; He is capable of revealing the Father.

CHRIST'S SONSHIP IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (4)

Matthew 14:23 - 26; Matthew 16:1 - 18

H.H. Would you say a word with regard to the yoke in chapter 11?

J.T. It is to bring us into the Lord's position before the Father -- His yoke. What was remarked about the inwardness of chapter 11 should be borne in mind in this connection, for the passage introduces the Father and the Son, the Son evidently influenced by powerful feelings towards the Father. He had spoken about John, and about the area in which His own mighty works were done, and then, answering, He speaks to the Father, evidently influenced by powerful inward feelings: "Jesus answering said, I praise thee, Father", and then He proceeds to speak about Himself, His Person, that no one knew Him but the Father, nor did any one know the Father save the Son and he to whom the Son was pleased to reveal Him. So that we are in the presence of the greatest things, things that are opened up in John's gospel, and I believe the Lord's invitation at the end of the chapter has in mind that those spoken to should come into all this, and learn from Him, I apprehend, more as a model than as an instructor -- learn from Him objectively.

P.L. Have we something like this in Psalm 45, the king moving in power and blessing, and then the appeal to the daughter to "See, and incline thine ear" -- would that be the word to the disciples? And then, "All glorious is the king's daughter within" (in the royal apartments, J.N.D. gives it in the note) -- would it suggest this inward side of things that the assembly is to be brought into?

J.T. That helps, for the allusion in Psalm 45 is directly spoken of in Hebrews 1, as referring to the Son, and hence it enters into this section in Matthew.

The idea of the Son coming in in Psalm 2 is in view all through the Psalms, and will have a place in the future in the experience of the remnant, but it has an exalted application now in its inward aspect -- in its inwardness. In the account in 1 Chronicles 11:6 of the capture of Zion, the stronghold was taken by Joab, but the record in 2 Samuel 5:8 omits reference to Joab -- though, according to the New Translation, space is left for him. The Spirit hesitates, as it were, to bring him in, or what he represents, that is, the exercise of gift or ability among us. Under such circumstances 2 Samuel rather places the whole matter typically in the hands of Christ Himself, and what is in view in this chapter is the inward bearing of the instruction, so those addressed are to take His yoke on them, and learn from Him, and they would find rest to their souls. It is what He is in the presence of the Father as Son; and then, what follows in chapters 12 to 16 emphasises the thought of inwardness, involving the mystery. "Joab", it says, "renewed the rest of the city" (1 Chronicles 11:8), which looks on to the future and in a way to what is public now. But there is the inward side in 2 Samuel which leaves out Joab.

P.L. Is it the thought in 1 Corinthians 13 of love surpassing public gift as seen in Corinth?

J.T. Quite so, and the account that John gives as to what transpired at the supper table, the one that Jesus loved finding himself in His bosom -- not on it, but in it. We lean on it, but he was in it; that is the inward thought, the idea of the bosom being receptiveness, and John is in it; so that he had a view of things that no other could have, and what he gives leads up to chapter 17, which is peculiarly inward in its bearing. So, in chapter 20 the disciples are inside and the doors are shut. It says in 2 Samuel 5, "David built round about from the Millo and inward".

D.L.H. Might there be a reference to what the Lord says: "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from

me", in Hebrews, where it says, "though he were Son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered" (chapter 5: 8)? Would that refer to "my yoke"?

J.T. The idea is there. We are brought alongside of the Lord, as it were, to learn things there. We are taken out of the realm of current religion -- what was in Judaea and Jerusalem and Galilee, publicly, and placed alongside of Him. "Come to me", He says, "... Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me".

What John opens up as he contemplated His glory enters into this. You are by Him, so to speak; you see how He is with the Father, and you are taken out of the realm of ordinary religion, indeed out of everything, and brought into a new realm where the Father and the Son are apprehended.

H.W.A. Does the thought of inwardness, as you are now speaking of it in spiritual apprehension, lead on to trustworthiness as forming a constituent part of the assembly. In chapter 12 we have this thought fully in Christ. "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen, my beloved, in whom my soul has found its delight" (verse 18).

J.T. The inward thought is what is totally outside of the realm of current religion, indeed of the world generally. You begin to grasp what is inward, and then what follows in the way of parabolic ministry has in mind to shut out what has proved itself reprobate, although under responsibility as to what has been said, it is yet unable to understand. So it says in chapter 13, "All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and without a parable he did not speak to them, so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden from the world's foundation". The "things hidden" are being disclosed by parabolic ministry, but in the next verse it says, "Then, having dismissed the crowds, he went into the house; and his disciples came to him, saying, Expound to us the

parable of the darnel of the field", and He goes on to expound to them in the house, so that we have a formal separation now between what is public -- and which has proved to be rejecting the Lord -- and what is private, leading up to the assembly, the mystery; and those termed babes, the persons addressed here by the Lord and invited to come to Him, are the nucleus of this new order of things -- and also His brethren in the end of chapter 12. We are now distinctly on a new line leading up to the assembly, and it is of great importance to notice that there is inwardness in the introduction of the Father and the Son, laying the basis for all this.

Ques. Speaking about inwardness, is it attractive that the Lord should speak about His own heart? It is the only time that He speaks of His heart: "I am meek and lowly in heart". The Lord could speak to certain ones to come unto Him and He would open to them all the secrets of His own heart.

J.T. The learning is very suggestive. What they had to learn had to do with what was thus inward in Himself. It really implies what He is before the Father. What a Man He is! What feelings He has! How what He is thus is to be learned, giving us character for the new order of things!

A.S.L. Would you say a word as to the character of the rest that He gives? "Ye shall find rest to your souls".

J.T. There again you have the inward thought. Externally there may be trouble, but there is rest of soul.

A.S.L. I wondered whether it might be -- speaking with all reverence -- what He Himself found as the perfect Servant and the dependent Man, as just expressed in His saying, "I praise thee, Father". It is all well, for "thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight" -- whether He would bring us to that attitude of soul?

J.T. Just so. There may be much physical toil and

weariness, but the rest of soul alluded to cannot be disturbed by what is external.

W.C.G. Does "Christ in you the hope of glory", connect itself in Paul's teaching with inwardness?

J.T. It does; Colossians has it in view; "hid" is a sort of key word in that epistle (Colossians 2:3). "Christ in (or among) you the hope of glory"; not yet publicly with us, but inwardly He is in us or among us. The Lord would draw us alongside of Himself so that we might learn what things are in Him as before the Father.

H.F.N. What are the distinctive features that come out in these following chapters as leading up to Peter's confession of Christ as "the Son of the living God"?

J.T. If we bear in mind the inward teaching of chapter 11 as the nucleus of what is contemplated, we can more readily proceed and see how all this is carried forward as material for the assembly, but it is carried forward through certain experiences contemplated in the intervening chapters. The first thing is in chapter 12, where the greatness of what is there is stressed. It is a delivering element, whilst full recognition is given to the previous greatness -- all of which was there -- the greatness of the temple, the greatness of Jonas and Solomon, yet now there is the One who is greater -- and all that He brings in. It is a delivering thought, transferring from Old Testament ground on to New Testament ground, so to speak. In an informal way, as alongside of Jesus, we come to see this greatness, and take our stand in relation to it. Then the chapter brings out the awfulness of the opposition, in attributing the mighty works of the Lord to the power of Beelzebub. You can hardly conceive of anything more dreadful, and He treats it so. We are to be educated as to the character of the evil that is current against Him. He exposes it most logically, showing how shallow human reasoning is under the influence of the devil. How could Satan stand? How can his house and kingdom stand if he be divided against himself? Then He shows