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Pages 1 - 196 -- "Heavenly Personality", Readings and Addresses in Great Britain, 1938 (Volume 144).

PERSONALITY

Revelation 22:16,17; Philemon 8 - 11; Revelation 1:9,10; Daniel 9:2 - 4

What is in mind in reading these scriptures is to speak about personality, which is one feature of the Scriptures: certain persons calling attention to themselves as speaking -- "I Jesus", "Paul the aged", "I John", "I Daniel". The first scripture, one well known to us, is Jesus addressing Himself to the assemblies; He calls attention to Himself, not simply as known under that precious appellation of "Jesus", but He introduces His history -- a matter of importance in those who have part in the service, in the testimony of God. Who is He?

Great personages have come up, are coming up, and will come up, in the course of this world, with little or no history, the most distinguished of all comes up out of the sea. We cannot obtain histories from the depths of the sea. We have not far to go for illustrations of persons coming into great prominence without any history behind them to qualify them. In the testimony of God, personality is given great prominence, and what precedes it, what enters into it, in the way of history. So that the Lord leads in this respect, especially in the verses read in Revelation 22. "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies". He leaves out John; John has his own personality, which we hope to look at. He mentions an angel, one of those of whose histories we know little, not that they have no histories, but very little is disclosed to us as to them in this respect; the stress therefore as to personality, in the Lord's remarks here, is on Himself.

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In the beginning of this book we have "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John". John comes in mediately between the angel and the assembly, but he is assumed in the Lord's remarks in the verses read to have a personality of his own, which the Lord by the Spirit would throw into evidence; one of the most interesting personalities in the Scripture is that of John. The angels are not presented to us as objects of attraction, they are all ministering servants sent out to minister on account of those -- namely, ourselves, that is, christians -- who are heirs of salvation. But the bondmen of Jesus have personalities, histories behind them, and peculiarly so John. The Lord could say constantly, directly and indirectly, that John is the one I peculiarly love; it is well worth while, therefore, to look into his history.

Jesus says further, "I am the root and offspring of David" -- no other history like that. John gives us even more than that, he begins his narrative of Jesus with, "In the beginning was the Word", alluding to the greatest expression morally of ability in man, the power of the mind, and that He was the Word itself personified -- the mind of God was there. That is how the beloved disciple begins in speaking about Jesus -- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being" (John 1:1,3). Of no being could that be predicated but One, not even the Father. The Son has distinction peculiar to Himself. The Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son. It is not said that the Father made all things -- the Son made all things. So that the Son has His own distinctiveness; personality is supreme there.

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Now here He is speaking to the assembly, the peculiar formation under Paul's ministry, for, without naming him, the apostle Paul comes into this book in his work in the word "assemblies". John wrote to Paul's assemblies, we might say, and the Lord Jesus is speaking to them now -- "I Jesus", He says, and, as using that form, He intends to impress us with personality, and personality as bearing on the present time as well as on the past and future.

That there is personality in the sense in which I am speaking of it, is unquestionable; there is not a single saint that has not a personality; the least esteemed in the assembly is equal to being put on the judge's seat (1 Corinthians 6:4), and that involves personality. So that the idea ought to come home to every one of us, and the Lord Jesus in putting Himself forward to the assemblies impresses us with this great thought of personality. It is doubtful if we would have much ministry save as someone understands what is said. I mean it has, otherwise, no resting-place. It is said of Samuel's words that none of them fell to the ground. It is rare that this could be said of anyone -- none of them fell to the ground, not one of his words. That would mean that they fell into honest and good hearts, and that helps to give pungency and reaction to ministry. We must look for reaction. 'A fine word', we say, but what about the practical effect?

Fruit for God requires intelligence, that is to say, "good ground" is the ground of the person who understands the word. He might not be able to give an address, as we say, on the words he heard, but still, there is the element of understanding, and that is not in man naturally -- that is the work of God, the good ground is the fruit of the work of God. So that the Lord, in speaking to the assemblies, spoke to those who had understanding; they were poorly instructed, no doubt, considering the period contemplated, but He speaks to them here as worthy of being spoken to.

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There is no question here of reproach, He is speaking to the assemblies according to their dignity -- "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies", without saying anything about John, as if the assemblies themselves could take in the testimony. That is another thing to be noted in this book, the word "testify". It belongs peculiarly to times in which things are doubted, times in which the enemy's effort is to make divine things uncertain, and to make the truth of God a lie. So this word is of immense importance, and it is very prevalent throughout this book; John "testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw"; he is a perfect witness.

Now the Lord is implying that the assemblies understand. What do they understand? Well, "I am the root ... of David", he who stands for all that is best, as we might say, in the service of God, Christ is his root, and his offspring, too. The "root" is inscrutable, who can get down to discover the meaning in detail of that word, in a divine Person? "Offspring" is historical. So that we have the deity of our Lord Jesus presented to us here, in unmistakable terms, and His humanity at the same time -- the Root and Offspring of David. What a Personality!

As the Lord's word here was read in the assemblies, the thought of personality would arise in their minds. What have we here in Ephesus? What have you in Smyrna? What reaction is there in those leading persons in your meeting from the knowledge that their names are written in heaven? What correspondence is there? There must be a correspondence, if things are right, between what we are in heaven and what we are down here. The Lord might even suggest -- but He does not here -- Why is it that you at Ephesus have turned away from Paul? Paul says, "all who are in Asia" -- think of that, even before the apostle's death -- "have turned away from me" (2 Timothy 1:15). There is no change in heaven's

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attitude towards Paul; why this change in Asia? Paul says to the Galatians, "I bear you witness that, if possible, plucking out your own eyes ye would have given them to me" (Galatians 4:15). Why the change? The change is not in me, he says, the change is in you. So it is with us; we are tested by our view, our estimate, of those whom heaven respects and loves. You do not want to be out of accord with heaven as to any brother.

The Lord in speaking of personality, is bringing Himself to their attention, "I Jesus". The idea of His personality should permeate all these assemblies; but some in them had turned away from Paul, having left their first love. Why did they leave their first love? They lost admiration of Jesus -- that is why; their eyes became blurred, their affections became dull, He was not to them what He used to be. But He says, I am the same, there is not a whit of change in Me, the change is in you. "The root and the offspring of David" -- think of who it is, towards whom you are growing cold: it is towards Me. How commonly it occurs, alas, amongst us! Our love for Christ grows cold, and we show it by turning away from, or otherwise ill-treating, one of His servants. There is no change in Me, the Lord says; I am still thinking of you; "I ... have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star".

I now go on to Paul. What I have said is to generalise my subject, showing that there is perfection in Jesus, and as presented in Him the idea of personality is to permeate all the assemblies; every one of, them. And the idea of the personality of Jesus comes right down to us, for the whole history is in mind. At the end there is a change in the assemblies, for there is such an one as is designated the bride, the supreme feminine idea of personality -- of the glory of affection. The Lord is ending on that, and He is succeeding, too,

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thank God, in however few; "the Spirit and the bride", as if there were a revival at the end, a response to this great personality which has come right down to us: Jesus. This book is full of it, and the Spirit has at least some who can be designated as the bride, and surely, dear brethren, every one of us wishes from the bottom of his heart, with all his heart and strength, to be among those who are designated as "the bride"! Personality -- feminine personality -- is there supremely, as it is in Jesus as Man supremely, for there is perfect correspondence between the Bridegroom and the bride.

Coming to Paul, I want to show how his personality enters into the preservation of the work of God, the preservation and the full valuation of every item of the work of God; this in truth is how the bride is reached. Onesimus is the theme of the letter to Philemon, a slave, but "a brother beloved" already; and there are many such, but they have not really, in the minds of many, been given their proper valuation. I am sure of that; money and status and what not, becloud our vision, so that brethren do not acquire their proper valuation. Philemon, apparently, was in danger of being beclouded by these things, he was the master of this slave. As such in earlier days, can he now look at him according to his real value? Gold is gold, wherever it is -- gold is always gold. Here is someone sent to Colosse apparently, a nugget, one might say, more than that, a precious stone, one who is to shine presently, and already is shining. Will he shine for Philemon? Will he adorn the house of Philemon -- will he adorn the assembly that is in Philemon's house? Will he be just a servant, just a slave, just that and nothing more when the brethren are invited into the house of Philemon? These are pertinent questions. Our eyes are readily blurred to the real value of the subjects of the work of God.

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The apostle says, "I rather exhort, being such a one as Paul the aged" -- a man of experience. If you were to ask Philemon, What do you think of Paul? Ah, he would say, there is no one like him, he has a big credit with me. Paul says, Take from that credit and put it to the credit of Onesimus -- that is, equalise things. Maybe I think too much of Paul and too little of Onesimus. Why Onesimus? Well, Onesimus is my child, he says; but if there is any indebtedness involved in this, well, debit it to my account. "I Paul" say it; not "Paul the aged" now, Paul the man of means now, the man who has a credit. Philemon would not deny it, he would say readily, I am sure, There is not a man I value more than Paul. I believe he would say that at this time. The apostle assumes that, but what he is concerned about is this young man who had been in a very menial position in that household. There was an assembly in the house, too -- it is worth while mentioning that, for the assembly of course normally is not concerned as to whether a man is a slave or a master, the principle in this respect governing the assembly is that the rich glory in their humiliation. The presence of an assembly in one's house ought to help me to rightly value a brother, although poor in this world's goods.

It is an important matter, if any one has personality amongst us to use it to its fullest extent to promote the right valuation of the work of God. We are greatly hampered if the work of God is not rightly valued. I do not say poverty in itself has any virtue; I do not think it has, though it may be so regarded by some. It is a question of the equalisation of things -- "let the brother of low degree glory in his elevation, and the rich in his humiliation" (James 1:9,10). Not that the brother of low degree is brought into better circumstances after the flesh, not at all -- he is brought in where the work of God is rightly valued, and that is in the assembly. So that personality, according to

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what I am saying, is for the preservation of right values of the work of God amongst the people of God.

There are other connections in which Paul's personality is implied -- valuable, too -- but I thought I would select this one. He brings it in in speaking to the Galatians: "I Paul"(chapter 5:2), he puts it into the scale against legality -- another thing that greatly hampers us as brethren. It is the Jewish element; legality is, I believe, put in that way in Scripture, and any personality that we have according to God may be rightly put into the scale against it to show that legality is not of any value at all. It is worse than useless; the apostle says, "I, Paul, say to you, that if ye are circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing". Think of that! You are deprived, he says, of all benefit from the Christ if you are circumcised, that is, going back to judaism, the beggarly elements whereby christians were being put into bondage; and the apostle puts the whole force of his personality into the scale against that.

Another thing he puts it against is rivalry amongst the brethren, indeed, it was a question of rivalry against himself. In 2 Corinthians 10:1 he throws his personality into the scale against that and he says, "I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ ...." Can we doubt that what he meant was that his personality carried with it those glorious traits and features, the meekness and gentleness of Christ? He throws that weight into the scale, in the chapter, against rivalry against himself, because they were comparing themselves with themselves in Corinth. A school of pride and competition had risen up in that assembly shortly after he left to labour elsewhere. He says, I want to show you the lightness and unprofitableness, to say nothing of the wickedness, of it. "I Paul"; he brings himself forward, and he beseeches them by the meekness and gentleness of Christ. He cites one brother at Corinth making a remark about him, saying, that his letters are weighty. I quite admit

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that -- this man would say to one of his party maybe -- but his bodily presence is weak. What a wretched thing to say about a brother! And as regards his speech, he said, it is contemptible. The apostle had that sort of thing in mind. What he wrote is now for us. That chapter is for us, to expose the baneful element of rivalry, of competition, in the things of God; "measuring themselves by themselves" (chapter 10:12) even. In the next chapter he says, I am compelled to go over my own history because of your attitude, but in chapter 10 he throws in his weight of personality to correct them -- "I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ".

Now, the next word is in regard to John -- one of the loveliest personalities that Scripture affords. We do not find his name in his gospel, it is usually "the disciple whom Jesus loved". Now he is putting his name in; that is to say, it is again a question of weight, of importance; one sacrifices his own personal feelings to help the brethren, even if he has to bring himself in. "I John". Well, who is he? That is the next thing. "Your brother", he says, "and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". It is evidently a position of power -- in Jesus; but still, tribulation is there too. Think of the fixedness of things, think of tribulation being as it were fixed in that sense -- it is in Jesus. The apostle Paul speaks of himself as "the prisoner in the Lord" (Ephesians 4:1) -- it is a position of dignity and power. So that the beloved disciple is now introducing himself, in what he has to say.

This book is full of signs and symbols, all of which have to be shown. It is a principle in the book that things are shown, but before we enter upon it we have this great personality brought to our attention -- "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". The saints are well off to have that brother, such a personality. If there are brothers like him in any degree today, it is

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well to keep them in mind, because we are enriched by them. John, of course, is outstanding in the whole history of the testimony, but still, as I said, these scriptures are written for us, not simply to interest us in John, but also in any one like him today. It is a question of what we have, and not only so, but that each of us should seek to be like John. Why not be like John? Why not be a brother like this -- a companion in tribulation with the brethren? But it is "in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus"; we are bound up in that position, but then there is this personality with it.

Then he says, I "was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus. I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day" -- that is, he gives us a good lead for our assembly services, he is a man able to instruct us, although a sufferer, and a prisoner, in Patmos, evidently without any brethren with him, for the testimony of Jesus. He is also able to abstract himself entirely, he is in the Spirit on the Lord's day -- not the first day of the week here. This is the only place where we get "the Lord's day" mentioned formally, but it is entirely in accord with the circumstances. The first day of the week is a question of privilege, of enjoying privilege and looking into eternity, whereas the Lord's day has to do with the opposition, with the power of Satan in this world.

Here on the Lord's day, John could abstract himself and be in the Spirit, and that means much, it means that he had part in a wholly spiritual order of things. The fact that he was in prison did not hinder him at all, he was outside of it in the Spirit. So he is ready to hear a divine trumpet; he says, "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet ...." That is another thing, an example for us, because there are such voices -- many do not hear them, and it is to our great detriment if we do not. So that the personality here before us

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is for us to emulate and follow, to have an ear to hear, as he says over and over again. Here it is a voice like a trumpet, so that anyone who does not hear is deaf. John was not deaf; he heard a voice behind him, as if to call him back to seen things, to sorrows, to conflicts, to desolations unspeakable, as one might say, but he is ready for it. He turned back to see the voice, for it was a question of the voice; the voice carries personality with it.

John has a personality of his own, but he understands the personality of Jesus more perhaps than any; but it was a "voice" -- he turned to see the voice, and he saw something in Jesus he had not seen before, namely, judicial habiliments, judicial appearance, judicial glory. I cannot stop to speak of that, but one of the glories of Christ is His judicial glory; it enters into our care meetings and many other such services we have to do towards one another. Let us not think that it is anything less than the glory. But I am speaking now of his personality, and what an example we have in John, according to his words which I have quoted. Let this personality come into our souls, because we may have to face prisons; if we do not face them now, some of our brethren do. "The same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world" (1 Peter 5:9). Surely it is for us to be like John, to be to the saints, "your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus".

Finally, I will just say a few words about Daniel. His personality is brought in perhaps as much as any -- "I Daniel" is mentioned several times. He is a servant of God who has a unique place, his ministry is largely among the gentiles, to give us light about the gentile monarchies -- a very important matter. If we run through the book, with what I am speaking of in mind, we shall be impressed with the personality of Daniel from the beginning to the end. He is a most attractive man spiritually, and it is a great advantage to have a

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man in any way like him amongst us. But he is selected evidently on account of his moral constitution to be the depository of the mind of God peculiarly as to the gentile monarchies.

We are now living in the days of the last of these monarchies, and the one who has had the longest existence; and Daniel's testimony is very important if we are to understand these things. "The wise shall understand" -- that is a word from Daniel. He also says, "the wicked shall do wickedly" (chapter 12:10) -- they will not change. We know it is so; the increase of wickedness is marvellous, the boldness with which the worst form of wickedness is perpetrated is remarkable, and there is no power to stop it. It is well to face these things, and Daniel helps us. He gives us dates, he is a prophet for dates, and he was a man who knew how to comport himself in regard to the powers that then were; a very important thing for us, not to be narrow-minded or legal. Thus let us learn from Daniel. See how he comported himself with Nebuchadnezzar, for instance, and with Belshazzar, and with Darius; and he came on even to the reign of Cyrus. He lived to be an old servant of God. He knew how to comport himself towards the authorities; we must do this, or we shall suffer.

There are those who do not distinguish between the King and his ministers, and the world. It is a mistake; however bad personally a man in office may be, he is clothed with what is of God. Whence is government? It is of God; never of the devil, he would destroy government if he could, and make chaos of this world as he made of the old world. "The earth was without form and void" (Genesis 1:2) -- someone caused that, God did not do it. Government is of God, and anyone who makes government of itself the same as the world is very much mistaken, he is doing dishonour to God and to the Scriptures, and he will suffer himself, too.

Daniel would not dishonour God in this way; he says to Nebuchadnezzar, "thou art this head of gold" (chapter 2:38);

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he knew what government meant right down to the government that is formed of iron and clay -- it is the same thing. The Lord Jesus, the greater than Daniel, said to the representative of Rome in Jerusalem, "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above" (John 19:11); and yet that man was perhaps as poor morally as any that ever exercised government. He handed the Lord Jesus over to be scourged, after his wife had told him that Jesus was a righteous Man -- and he knew it. He did not sustain government; still the Lord Jesus recognised that government was there. It is well for us to bear this in mind, for we may come closer to things, that others are suffering, than might be expected; and Daniel serves to show us how to comport ourselves in relation to government, and how to comport ourselves in whatever circumstances we may be. He never failed in that, whether under Cyrus, or Belshazzar, or Nebuchadnezzar; he was always true to the testimony.

He says, "I Daniel understood by the books that the number of the years, whereof the word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah the prophet, for the accomplishment of the desolations of Jerusalem, was seventy years". That is the first thing to notice here; he was a man who read his Bible and read it for a purpose. He read the prophet Jeremiah and he learnt from Jeremiah that seventy years were to be accomplished in the desolations of Jerusalem, and he began to pray according to that. That is, we must have some basis for our prayers; we are often merely theoretic as to prayers. If I pray for anything, I must have some reason for asking God for that thing, and Daniel acted according to this, as I have shown. The seventy years were nearly over and so he prays. I cannot go over the chapter; most of you perhaps are conversant with the book of Daniel. This chapter is very striking; he had in mind that he should find out something about Jerusalem, and, clothed in sackcloth, he prayed and

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confessed his sins and the sin of his people, saying, "I made my confession". Our prayers would be much more effective if there were more confession -- I am sure of that. "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" (Psalm 66:18).

So he goes on with his prayer, and a great minister comes to tell him that from the time he began to pray heaven was moved; he says, "O Daniel, man greatly beloved ... unto thee am I now sent" (chapter 10:11). What a personality he had in the mind of heaven! The book shows he also had a great personality even among kings. Able, on the one hand, to respect the authorities, however wicked the persons might be; and, on the other hand, to maintain the rights of God. There is no greater lesson than this at the present moment, to learn how to maintain the rights of God, and yet to respect every bit of gold, everything that is of God in this world. For gold is gold, and God would have us put names on things and value them aright, and with all that to say, "God must be obeyed rather than men" (Acts 5:29). So if Daniel has to pray towards Jerusalem, he does it knowing full well the possible penalty. He did it, he suffered, but he respected the authority.

Think of the king coming to a man like this, to the mouth of the lion's den, and saying, "O Daniel" -- what a feeling the man had! And what a personality Daniel had! God gave him that, and He would give me that, or any one of us, in measure; for we need it in having to do with the authorities, so as not to incur unnecessary displeasure, but to be balanced in regard of them. So Gabriel tells him how he is loved in heaven, and he says, I am going to tell you the whole story of all you want to know about dates, about your people, and your city; not only the seventy years that are past, but he says, "Seventy weeks are apportioned out upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make expiation for iniquity" (chapter 9:24). All this,

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dear brethren, is to sustain us; there is going to be an end of these things, God has fixed His day, and not a minute beyond that will it go -- He will bring in everlasting righteousness. It is for Daniel's people and Daniel's city; but soon to be the city of Christ, the city of the great King and His people. He will bring in everlasting righteousness, for in truth Jesus does it; He takes away the sin of the world; He does this and also baptises with the Holy Spirit. He effects the whole purpose of God.

So you can see, dear brethren, how personality enters into all this, and, in a word, it is what any man or woman is, not simply what I am able to say in ministry or what I know, but what I am, and it has its own effect; God intends there should be personality as I have been speaking of it at the present time. It is a question of quality. What the prophet said applies today: the good figs are very good and the bad ones are very bad (Jeremiah 24:1 - 3).

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THE HOLY MOUNTAIN AND ITS FEATURES

Matthew 16:28; Mark 9:1 - 8; Luke 9:28 - 36

J.T. Each of these records has a particular character in relation to the gospel in which it is found, the first, I thought, having in mind personality, both in Christ and in the saints, in view of assembly formation and service, this gospel having the assembly particularly in view. In Mark, the Spirit has levitical service in view, service in the sense in which it is carried on by qualified persons, gifts. Luke is concerned about the moral side of the position set out in the kingdom as it is seen down here: first of all in Christ -- as He said, "the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21); or in the saints now, as the epistle to the Romans presents it to us, and which requires new birth, that it might be seen and entered into. It is hoped that the Lord will show us certain features in each account that corroborate what has been remarked.

Matthew clearly has personality in mind, because he begins with the Son of man coming in His kingdom: "Verily, I say unto you", the Lord says, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom". The idea is, the Person of the Lord Jesus, in this title, but coming in His kingdom; it will be displayed -- involving a great personal distinction. So we have, as distinctive to Matthew, His countenance as the sun, and the bright cloud, and the voice saying, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (chapter 17:5). We may look at Matthew first, having the features in mind to which attention has been called. Does this outline of the three accounts strike you as right?

C.A.C. Yes, indeed. I was wondering whether you had in mind that this element of personality should characterise the assembly?

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J.T. Yes. The remaining part of Matthew 17 seems to emphasise and enlarge on the thought, for it introduces sonship, bringing the disciples into association with Christ, as He says to Peter: "Then are the sons free"; He associates Peter with Himself in connection with the piece of money; saying, "take that and give it to them for me and thee". It elevates us in our thoughts and affections, too, as we humbly and yet really accept this dignity that the Lord puts upon us, especially in assembly service.

E.B.I. "Whom say ye that I am?" the Lord said.

J.T. Yes; the revelation to Peter in chapter 16 precedes this. There the Lord includes Peter in the same sort of dignity that attaches to himself as the Foundation -- that is, in the sense of material, "Peter", as no doubt all understand, being "stone" -- part of the rock. So that the personal dignity afforded in the revelation enters into the assembly viewed as a structure. It is however more than a structure, it is a vessel of service, and it is as in this relation that we have the idea of personality in the end of chapter 17 -- sonship, required both for service Godward and manward.

F.W.W. Are we to gather that these records of the transfiguration have a very definite bearing on the assembly at the present time, and are calculated to affect us?

J.T. I think so. Matthew brings out the idea of personality -- obviously not what we are in any way after the flesh, but what we are according to divine counsel and work, divine counsel as to us, and divine work in us, and the education that goes with it. Hence we have the names of the persons here who appeared without saying they were men, and in Mark also; whereas Luke stresses they were men -- "two men" -- their names are secondary. These are outstanding persons in the Old Testament, and their appearance here is to remind us of the heavenly side of our position -- those who are of the assembly, heavenly personalities.

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Angels are heavenly, too, but not the personalities which the counsels of God had specially in mind as the occupants of heaven. Moses and Elijah here are typical of these, for man, as in Christ, has gone beyond angels.

R.C. In connection with what Peter said to the Lord just previously, "God be favourable to thee, Lord" (verse 22), would that show our great need of being brought into this instruction as to the greatness of Christ's personality?

J.T. You mean that it was a natural trait working out in Peter to prevent the Lord from fulfilling the work which He came to accomplish; his assuming to know better than the Lord -- that what the Lord had spoken should not be? That certainly is not a trait of heavenly personality, for the will of God is to be done here as up there. That will is to be known fully in man, not in angels, although they fulfil the will of God; but we learn the will of God from Man, that is, in Christ, and now, in measure, in those who are of Christ.

R.J.D. When the Lord says, "some of those", does He introduce the idea of dignity there? Should that not raise questions in our minds that we might be among the "some of those"?

J.T. Yes, it would challenge us as to whether we are of them.

W.R. Has new birth a bearing on personality, as far as the saints are concerned?

J.T. It has; it is the foundation of it. It is the foundation of our personality and refers to the family feature of our position. New creation, of course, also comes into it. It seems as if new birth is the foundational thought that culminates in the personality that God has in His mind. It seems as if generation is greater than new creation, for generation refers to persons only; creation refers to lower living creatures and inanimate things. Would you say that?

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C.A.C. Yes. Generation would involve stature in accord with the first thought, would it not? Creation is more the completed thing, a thing completed by the act of God.

J.T. Generation therefore involves development. The model would be Christ, that is, the Adamic figure of Christ; God had Christ in mind in Adam. In Genesis 1, of course, it is a creatorial thought alone: "male and female created he them"; but in chapter 2 He formed Adam, and breathed into him, so that according to Luke's account of the genealogy of Christ, Adam is "of God". I suppose the line of our Lord Jesus as in Luke 3 goes back into Genesis 2 rather than chapter 1. So Eve is formed, too -- builded, alluding to the assembly.

C.E.B. The result is reached here: "they saw no one but Jesus alone". Every other man disappears, leaving only one object.

J.T. Mark says, "Jesus alone with themselves", meaning the servants down here have Him in the discharge of their service. Matthew, I suppose, would put Christ outstandingly before us, the great thought of personality being in mind throughout his gospel. So he adds what had been already announced at the Jordan, that the Father has found His delight in the Son; and he tells us that His countenance shone as the sun. He is about to appear in that sense in royalty and government. The Spirit of God seems to keep that thought before us to imbue us with the idea of personality. Great as it is in Christ, there are two men seen talking with Him, as if He is accessible in this great thought -- not that they are called men here, they are called by their great names. Applying the thought to ourselves, we, as His brethren, have liberty of access to Him to speak to Him. We are not told here what they spoke of; it is simply that they had that liberty as heavenly ones. I suppose the idea is that the great personalities of heaven are known in their distinctiveness,

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by their names. It is simply "Moses and Elias", not "two men ... who were Moses and Elias", as in Luke.

Ques. Do we see also personality coming out in Peter, James, and John? So that the idea is that we all may have personality in the sense of which you are speaking?

J.T. It is for ourselves -- Peter and James and John are not here now. It would not be written if it were only for them. It is written for us who are here, that we may take in the divine thought in personality, supremely seen in Jesus, and yet in two men who are known in this scene of glory by their names.

J.E.B. Is the thought of personality to be connected with "the crowd of names" in Acts 1:15?

J.T. Yes. The word "crowd" would stress the thought, for only by distinctiveness is one known there; each is known by his name.

P.E.H.W. Does this thought commence in the history of Paul when he says, "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law" (Romans 7:25)?

J.T. That is a basic thought of personality, that you arrive at a consciousness of yourself as in this relation. It is a moral thought there, that there is the resolve, as reaching self-consciousness through the process indicated, to serve God's law, whatever it may be -- not any specific law, but whatever it may be. It is evidently the basis for all personnel. Paul works it out in himself in several instances in which he says "I Paul". He speaks to the Corinthians and Galatians in that way. He throws in the weight of his personality with what is said; that weight would be recognised in heaven, and by every spiritual person. In speaking to Philemon, he throws in the weight of his personality, adding his age to it, in order that the work of God should be respected by Philemon, for it was the question of the work of God in Onesimus, which was liable to be under-rated by Onesimus' master. The relation of

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master and slave would tend to belittle, in the mind of the master, the work of God in the slave, and it seems that the apostle throws his personality, inclusive of his age, into the scale so as to ensure the recognition of the full worth of the work of God in a believer.

C.A.C. Is his personality in that sense, "I Paul", a little different from the thought, "I know a man in Christ" (2 Corinthians 12:2)? Is not the latter a little more abstract?

J.T. Will you enlarge on it?

C.A.C. I was thinking "I Paul" was the living person known as moving amongst the brethren, and having a certain character discernible by the saints; but "a man in Christ" is a little more abstract, is it not?

J.T. Giving him a status in heaven?

C.A.C. I wondered whether "I Paul" is not his status among the brethren, but "a man in Christ" his status in heaven.

J.T. I am sure that is right, and it will help us in looking at Luke 9, for that presents the moral side of the kingdom. It is in such men as Paul that the kingdom is seen down here in a moral sense. The idea of the kingdom of God comes out in what the Lord said, "nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21). It is the thing working next door to you, so to speak. That is the idea -- "in the midst of you". What a man is morally is worked out here in the government of God, the service of God, and the discipline of God. I am sure that is what "I Paul" means, and it brings out the importance of men of weight, not only gift, not only ability given of God, but moral weight, to be thrown into the scale, if needed, in a crisis. Whilst it is right that we should be governed by principles and truth, we cannot omit the importance of persons: that is, those in whom God has wrought and whom He has used. It is more than hearsay; it is seen in "being such a one as Paul the aged" (Philemon 9).

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Ques. Do you get the thought of personality in Revelation 1:9? "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". In the scripture you have referred to, "Peter, and James, and John his brother" are spoken of. Is it a further development of personality in Revelation 1?

J.T. Yes. The idea of personality in a moral sense is a very interesting line of thought.

C.A.C. You have made it clear to us that heavenly status is "a man in Christ", but in a moral sense, men who can call attention to themselves are of importance, because they are of moral weight and, if thrown into the scale at times, weigh it down in favour of what is right. It is important to have distinction in that way. It is important in the testimony, for at times the saints are simply governed by the weight of a man of God like that; if they cannot see principles clearly, they know him.

J.T. So, as you say, we have the idea in John in Patmos, and even in Jesus -- "I Jesus" (Revelation 22:16). What He is as known thus is in mind. Daniel is an outstanding man: the Spirit alludes to him in that way in his book frequently. "Go thy way, Daniel, ..." the angel says, "thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot" (Daniel 12:13). Ezekiel refers to Daniel as of importance in a moral way.

E.B.I. Is there a group of such persons found at Antioch -- named at the beginning of Acts 13?

J.T. Yes; though they do not commend themselves. It seems a man is entirely free of himself when able to say, as the apostle did, "I Paul". You might say, That is an egotistical man! No, he is not; he is so beyond that, that he is free of himself, and the Spirit causes him to speak thus.

E.W.B. Is the instruction to "make disciples" based on the thought of personality?

J.T. That is right. "Make them". No one can make them unless he has personality. That is what is needed: influence is implied.

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A.J.H. Is "Listen to Israel your father" (Genesis 49:2) on this line?

J.T. Just so; such a man as Israel, and his being in that relation, added to his greatness as Israel -- "your father", the parental thought.

Now, as regards Mark, the idea is, as has often been said, that there are those who are to serve in a levitical way. In this gospel the Lord goes up into the mountain and calls to Him whom He Himself would, appointing twelve that they might be with Him, that He might send them forth to preach (chapter 3:13,14). Mark, in giving the account of the transfiguration, quotes the Lord as saying, "... the kingdom of God come in power"; and he says, "Jesus takes with him Peter and James and John, and takes them up on a high mountain by themselves apart". Earlier, Mark says the Lord, having gone up into the mountain, called whom He Himself would, and appointed twelve that they might be with Him, that He might send them forth to preach. They are viewed as a class; and here these three are taken "by themselves apart". All this is peculiar to Mark, showing that servants have to learn to be apart with Christ; not as a clerical set, of course, but nevertheless servants of a peculiar kind. "With him" they learn true personality. They are not to be rivals, they have the same opportunities, all chosen of Christ, and all with Him so as to come under His influence, and all sent forth to preach: they are commissioned men. So the end here is, "suddenly having looked around, they no longer saw any one, but Jesus alone with themselves" -- not "and themselves", but "with themselves", a great comfort to those who are in any way commissioned, would you say?

C.A.C. The greatest comfort!

E.B.I. Does that correspond with what comes out at the end of the gospel, "the Lord working with them"?

J.T. That is right, that is the thought exactly -- "with them".

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E.B.H. In Matthew it is stated that His face shone as the sun, but here in Mark the shining is only connected with His garments. Has that to do with the way He is specially presented as the Servant in Mark's gospel?

J.T. No doubt alluding to the garments of those of us who serve. And the young man at the tomb (chapter 16), is clothed in a white robe -- an important suggestion as to those who are serving as commissioned men, that their circumstances are pure. The enemy often damages a real servant through his circumstances, through his not attending to his garments, his household affairs, and his business affairs. Many a man has been brought down by neglecting to attend to his garments. The peculiar words used here as to whiteness are strong: "his garments became shining, exceeding white as snow, such as fuller on earth could not whiten them". They must be from heaven to have such whiteness; no seminary training, no clerical training of any kind, nor monasticism, can produce such garments as these.

C.A.C. Is it not remarkable that that is the evidence of the power of the kingdom?

J.T. I thought that. It is a question of power. I suppose you have often noticed the frequency of the word "power" in the Corinthian epistles. It was really the test of things at Corinth -- men were assuming to be ministers without power, and, of course, that implies, without white garments. Certainly the garments of at least some of them at Corinth were filthy, not only those mentioned in the first epistle, but others, as he tells them in the second letter (chapter 12:21).

C.A.C. Would you say we need this in addition to personality, personality coming first as in Matthew, but power is a most important requisite?

J.T. We surely do, and you rejoice, I am sure, as looking on the field, to see the number of young men taking an active part in the service. What a word there

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is in this account as to garments, as to the circumstances in which we appear, whether in household affairs or business matters, or personal links! The power goes with the white garments.

C.A.C. That is an essential support in relation to all exercise of gift.

J.T. It seems to me that in youth it is one of the most important words -- "in purity" (1 Timothy 4:12). The young man in a white garment at the sepulchre is certainly very suggestive; he was in the full knowledge of the Lord's position as risen, but clothed with a white garment. Timothy is a model; and yet he is enjoined to flee youthful lusts, and to follow righteousness, faith, love, peace with others; showing that however gifted and honoured a man may be in his youth, he is exposed in this way.

J.E.B. Elijah is mentioned before Moses; is there any connection here with his mantle?

J.T. It is "Elias with Moses" -- not Moses with him. I think Moses has the distinction in all these accounts, but Elijah's garments, as you say, are mentioned in Scripture.

W.W. I notice in each case it says, "hear him". Is that an essential to acquiring the qualities spoken of?

J.T. That comes into each account. They are enjoined to hear the Lord, from the standpoint of the greatness of His Person in Matthew, and from the standpoint of His servant character here in Mark. If you are in service as called into it in this special way particularly, you are to hear Him in regard to that, and take account of Jesus as the perfect Servant. "My servant whom I uphold", says Jehovah, "mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!" (Isaiah 42:1) We surely ought to consider Him, and look into all the facts relative to Him in that light, if we are to be true servants.

A.C. Would the word to Timothy bear on it -- "Keep thyself pure" (1 Timothy 5:22) -- suggesting that if that were not so his personality would be impaired?

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J.T. Just so. Again, "Take heed unto thyself". It is a constant thing; that is, it is a question of taking heed to yourself and all that attaches to you, "and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (1 Timothy 4:16). So that attention to oneself is most important; of course, it is so to all christians, but particularly to those in any way commissioned, because the saints look at us, and expect us to give them a lead, not only in what we say, but in what we are, each in himself. It is very striking with regard to Paul in his first missionary tour, on meeting with Elymas the sorcerer, how he dealt with him, how penetrating he was as to that man's personality and origin. "O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?" (Acts 13:10). Then immediately after the deputy of the island of Cyprus (being astonished at the teaching of the Lord) is secured for the testimony, we have "Paul and his company" -- a safe company to be in, that of such a man. Not that he was a party man, of course, but the Spirit of God is pleased to honour him in that way as worthy of the saints taking notice of him and being near him. Surely, as living in his day, you would be near to Paul if possible, and obtain what you could of his company.

E.B.I. Would that be a cause of Mark withdrawing from the work?

J.T. Evidently it was not the company he liked in his service at that time -- a very humbling thing for him. How ashamed of himself he must have felt in later years! He must have said, What opportunities I had in service with the apostle Paul, but I did not value them then.

J.H-k. His garments had become whitened at the time when Paul says, "Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry" (2 Timothy 4:11).

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J.T. Evidently they had. "Paul and his company" would really synchronise with the Lord in the mount in Mark 3, when He chose certain that they might be with Him; it was Christ's company then. The idea is companionship with such a servant as Paul. Of no one else is such a thing stated. Is that right?

C.A.C. Yes, I think so.

F.H. Would you say that the garments of Paul and Silas, in prison in Philippi, were shining resplendently in their service, the power of the kingdom being there?

Ques. And Peter and John in going up to the temple?

J.T. Quite so; and they were so entirely "apart" as men. I believe the idea of Nazariteship enters into all this. It is the secret one has with God in His service, and the garments that are needed to maintain that secret, and the power that goes with it, for power is with Nazariteship.

C.A.C. Is there something distinctive in the Lord's action here? I was thinking of the principle of selection as seen in His taking twelve to the mount, but selecting three. Is there any principle like that today?

J.T. I think there is. There is considerable concern about invitations to special meetings, and the same principle might be applied. I am not saying that the invitations and selections now are so accurate as this, but still they ought to be based on known qualities in the persons invited. There ought to be no question about them. The idea of selection is divine, and cannot be quarrelled with in itself; our judgment in the selection may be, but not the principle.

C.A.C. This principle of selection would, I suppose, apply to all service. Is it not a matter of the Lord's own choice and selection as to each one, whether the measure be great or small?

J.T. Just so. He uses this principle in selecting these three men to accompany Him to the house of Jairus, and again here. There it would be evidently to form a spiritual atmosphere -- a most important

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matter in special meetings, to make the atmosphere as spiritual as it can be made by the persons invited. The Lord chose these three, and put out others whose presence vitiated the atmosphere -- the flute-players and the like. Here He would refine these men more, and make them more than they were. Surely the process of refinement is important in relation to those who serve, so that the saints might be better served; nobody should quarrel with what results in better service to the saints.

Ques. Does the principle of selection bring out His sovereignty -- choosing whom He will?

J.T. Some are left behind, though already selected as having been made apostles; they are not taken on for this special refinement, this special view of the kingdom. The Lord would have it rightly presented, and He decided that those three men would be the best vessels for that purpose. It is a question really in each case of the greatest good for the brethren. So in 2 Peter you see how Peter shines in the light of this vision which he had on the mount. He speaks of it most beautifully and forcibly, "having been eye-witnesses of his majesty", he says, in keeping with Matthew's record; "being with him on the holy mountain", he adds (2 Peter 16,18), as if they needed to be with Him to see it, for it was for the good of the whole assembly; each one of us has gained from it. Peter, as about to put off his tabernacle, is able to speak well, too, of the most spiritual of the levites, of the great servant of Christ, Paul; how beautifully Peter speaks of Paul, and of his writings!

C.R.T. There was a lack of white garments at Laodicea, and the Lord in His word to the assembly there appeals to anyone who would hear His voice.

J.T. Quite so, and He says He is ready to sell them these white garments, that is, one can have them on that principle, if not otherwise; but the Lord makes it imperative that they should have them.

Then Luke's description of the transfiguration is in a way the most important as representing the moral

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side: that is how the kingdom of God is seen. There the Lord says, "There are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they shall have seen the kingdom of God" -- that is, the thing itself, not in any particular feature, but as known down here in a moral sense, practically worked out in persons.

A.S.K. Does this presentation involve more responsibility than the two previous?

J.T. It is more what men are in a moral sense, what anyone of us is; and hence Jesus is presented as going up to pray -- that is the first thing. A Man who is known to be a praying Man, moving up so high to pray, surely there is something of God to be seen in that Man! It is the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is to be seen in persons who are dependent on God, not on themselves and their own ability, but on God. Jesus goes up to pray: that is what is in His mind. He is not going up to be transfigured, but to pray. That is how Luke gives the facts. Then he says, "as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent". Jesus is different from the ordinary man, and notice is to be taken of Him; it cannot fail to be taken if He is so different from the ordinary. The kingdom of God, the rule of God, is seen in that Man. Applied now, that includes not only levites, or commissioned men, but all saints; for every one born anew, born of water and of the Spirit, sees and enters into the kingdom of God; so that he in turn becomes visible in it.

Then it is stated that two men talked with Him, not, first, these great personages, but "two men", and we are told what they were talking about, too -- another trait of persons in whom the kingdom of God is to be seen. They were talking about what Jesus would accomplish at Jerusalem, that is, the great work of the cross. That is the theme of conversation, not ordinary matters. That is another thing that enters into the

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kingdom here in a moral sense, what people are talking about.

J.H.B. Does the fact that the kingdom is referred to in each of the scriptures, imply that we need continually to get fresh thoughts about the kingdom in order to function rightly in assembly?

J.T. That is right, and what is before us now is important in that respect. It is what you are in your profession, what you are in your house, and on the street, and it includes brothers and sisters alike, persons who are born anew, who see and enter into the kingdom of God. The Lord called attention to it: "the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21), seen in the midst of them in such a lowly Man. Well, I want to be like that! The idea comes out in prayer, and it comes out in the fact that I am different. The passage says, "the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent". Then He is accessible to two men, bringing out an additional feature. One of those of the kingdom may be head of a business, or a distinguished professional man, or a man of ancestry, as we may speak: whatever he is that is regarded as distinction in this world, yet he is accessible -- you can speak to him, you can approach him, and he is ready to listen to you.

A.F.B. He took them up into the mountain on each occasion, involving elevation; such moral elevation is needed on our part for us to see the kingdom.

J.T. Moral elevation certainly attaches to the kingdom itself, and our going up to see it. But now it is a question of what is in the midst of men: "the kingdom of God is in the midst of you". The Lord was the thing, He was there in their midst. It is not, "Lo here" nor "Lo there". It is not a question of some great thing happening according to man's natural way of thinking, but it is in a Man like Jesus, a Man who prayed, and who was the most accessible of all men; we never read of His turning any away, He was always

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ready to receive people. It is said too of Paul, "he ... received all who came to him" (Acts 28:30); not simply that he allowed them into his house, but he received them; an important matter, because if we get on a bit in business, as men and women in this world, we are apt to put on natural features that convey a certain haughtiness and distance; whereas the point here is, "two men talked with him". Their identity is stated afterwards, but the primary thought is that they were men, and were talking with Him, and talking about what He was going to do in Jerusalem; that was the theme of their conversation.

F.W.W. John is mentioned here, and as one who in the Lord's bosom, found the Lord peculiarly accessible.

J.T. The Lord was peculiarly accessible to him; and the word "bosom", as you know, refers to receptiveness -- not simply that one takes the place, but you are received there. The idea of the breast is firmness: John leaned on the breast, but he was in the bosom of Jesus.

F.H. What was the service of God that the Lord was rendering in this mountain? You spoke of the service of the Lord and the service of the assembly Godward and manward.

J.T. He was praying; He was praying when He was changed. It brings out that side, not simply the service of God, but the thought of a dependent Man, qualifying to represent God. The moral side of the kingdom is seen in Him in the very fact that He is praying. He is dependent upon God, not on Himself. The kingdom of God is the power of God, not as seen in the kingdoms of this world now, where everything hinges on the head, as one who said, "Is not this great Babylon, that I have built?" (Daniel 4:30) Jesus is not like that; He is dependent, so that He is a Model for us. It is largely a question of the word of God and prayer, with the

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practical result -- "righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17).

F.H. That very attitude of prayer is service to God.

J.T. It is His kingdom as seen in those thus characterised; and He acts for them, for His kingdom is in power.

S.C. Is there a suggestion of this in Acts 3 -- Peter and John say, "Look on us"? It is at the hour of prayer that they were going up.

J.H-k. These two men on the mount were seen not only speaking with the Lord, but they "stood with him".

J.T. Just so; there is there what is suggestive of God's kingdom. That is the kind of thing.

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BLESSED ARE YOUR EYES

John 3:3; John 9:1 - 7; Luke 9:27 - 35; Luke 10:23,24

I have in mind, dear brethren, to speak about sight; not at first of the organ of sight, but rather the power to use it. The organ is not formally referred to in the first scripture; what is alluded to by the Lord is the inability in the natural man to use it aright. Not that the organ was defective exactly, but the general condition was; as is often the case in regard to defective organs, the source of the trouble is constitutional.

The conversation between the Lord and Nicodemus obviously arises from what the Lord had found in Jerusalem -- Jerusalem being, religiously at least, the place where you would expect people to see, but the Lord had already diagnosed the state of things there, and His conversation with this remarkable man was to unfold to him the truth as to man's state: this state alas! characterising the city. Thus the Lord did not trust the Jews. There were certain who were affected by His signs, even as in the circumstances current around us -- there are those who are affected to a point by the testimony of the gospel, but they are not trustworthy. This extends particularly to those who, whilst professed believers, are critical of the truth -- not constructively so, but destructively so; men moving about with hammers and hatchets and implements of all kinds, to break to pieces, if they can, what the gospel presents. Their statements, although laboured and very pretentious, are not to be trusted.

I speak just briefly of this, because the youth, the very youngest, indeed, are exposed -- terribly exposed, in the schools -- to statements legalised but utterly unreliable. It is this feature that is stamped on the whole movement, and accompanying it is the element of pride. The Lord later says to the Jews, "ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth"(John 9:41). They claimed

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to see things, to have reached conclusions too by careful investigations, but the Lord deals with the matter at its root, and the Spirit of God tells us in chapter 2 that He did not trust them. Although there was professed faith, He did not trust them, for the reason that He "knew what was in man".

The statements of current critics do not agree; indeed are often self-contradictory, as is said in the gospels of the accusers of Christ; and these men of modern times are in truth attackers of Christ. The accusers of Christ before His tribunal were found guilty on the same principle -- their evidence did not agree. So that we may thank God for the Holy Spirit, who, in this gospel, is significantly designated as "the Spirit of truth" (chapter 14:17). We not only require statements of truth -- the Scriptures afford these, they are called the Scriptures of truth; every scripture is inspired of God and is profitable in this respect -- but we require also the Spirit of truth. We are enjoined to try the spirits, and see whether they are of God; and we shall soon find out in these pretentious elaborations that, not only have they not the statements of the truth, but they have not the Spirit of truth.

I believe that a very extended counsel has been taken in heavenly places (Ephesians 6:12) in view of what is current in modern times, in order to undermine the whole fabric of truth. Hence the importance of knowing the truth; we are to know the truth. The Lord says, "If ye abide in my word, ye are truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:31,32). I believe there has been extended counsel as to this modern attack on the truth, even as they took counsel in the high priest's palace to put Jesus to death. This has been the case, and men sworn to defend the truth have had part in it, and the nefarious procedure has gone on for years. But the Spirit of the Lord has lifted up a standard against the enemy -- let there be no question about

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that! And there is a call to rally to that standard; that is the position, and it raises the question as to whether we are marked by the love of the truth. It is said that a strong delusion is to be sent presently (is being sent, in a certain sense) that certain ones should believe a lie, because, we are told, they received not the love of the truth. To this end I would commend an enquiry into the special place the Spirit has in the epistles which deal with the apostasy. We shall understand as we look into this subject, how to meet the current evil, the current attack.

Well now, the Lord is lifting up a standard in John 3, and it is a question of seeing. He has found a man worthy of being spoken to about this matter. There are many that are utterly unworthy of attention at all, unworthy of being spoken to; yea, it is incumbent upon us not to speak to them, to turn away from them -- "from such, turn away", we are told (2 Timothy 3:5). Yet there are Nicodemuses, and the Lord has one of them before Him here, not one of these untrustworthy persons. Although slow in coming round to the truth, he is genuine; that is to say, he affords material for the Lord, material through which to raise up a standard against unreality, against unreliableness. The Lord asserts the plain unvarnished exclusion of man after the flesh from the whole matter: he is utterly incapable of having to say to the things of God -- not only unreliable, but incapable of having to say to the things of God! Not that his responsibility is shelved -- surely not! As I said before, the Lord says, "ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth". Their sin remains, piled up to heaven! Every week brings its own quota of their nefarious stuff that comes up from the pit, to deceive, if possible, the very elect, but particularly to damage the youth, including the children.

So the Lord raises the question of seeing, and makes it a constitutional matter, that is, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God". Now

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that is the point, that is the great issue. He may see many other things, he may look into the heavens with his telescope and see great things; they are physical things. His conclusions may be very erroneous, but he sees things wonderful in themselves, but with no moral consequence at all. He may dig into the earth and see striking things there, too; he may enquire into all the kingdoms of creation, animal and otherwise; but he cannot see the kingdom of God! That is the issue.

I do not speak of men entering into the kingdom now, I am speaking of sight, whether the natural man can see the kingdom of God. The Lord emphatically states he cannot. In this sense he is simply ruled out of the whole matter. "Except a man", He says -- anyone it is, whoever he is, great or small, rich or poor, learned or unlearned -- be "born anew", meaning throughout, he cannot see the kingdom of God. It is not simply that one organ must be affected, but the whole man, the whole being is affected, otherwise he cannot use his eye aright. And yet the kingdom of God exists, as I hope to show as I proceed, by the Lord's help. I hope to show how it may be seen by us, not only in a theoretical way, but in a practical sense, in persons, in persons who are characteristic of it. The Lord when here said "the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21), referring to its presence in Himself: now it is here through the presence of the Holy Spirit in the assembly; thus it is seen in persons.

I go on to John 9 to show how the organs must come under the touch of Christ -- the organs themselves, the eyes. It is what puts us intelligently in touch with the whole environment in which we are set, and the Lord in passing on, we are told, sees this man. We are told immediately that the Lord Himself saw him, and that he was born blind: not simply that he was a blind man, but he was born blind. It is a question now of the organs of sight. The sequel would

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show that there was something of God in that man; for the operations of God underneath are going on; are current all the time. It is for us to be observant, and be aware of what is happening in this sense. The Lord was passing and He saw this man, one "blind from his birth".

I only wish to touch on it briefly, as I want to go on to Luke 9, so as to occupy you with the real thing -- the kingdom of God in expression. We have arrived at the time of reality; the situation is urgent, the concrete side of things is what God is calling attention to, and John's ministry is for that very purpose. John gives us the constitution, and he gives us the divine knowledge of everything. This was a selected man in the Lord's mind, not any blind man. Without the principle of sovereign selection, John's ministry is not to be understood. This passage assumes chapter 3. The principle is that persons selected are such as are needed; it is a question of the "works of God", and these are in relation to His sovereignty. Here it is not simply the work of God, but the works. Moses asked, "Let thy work appear unto thy servants" (Psalm 90:16). A very important prayer! He knew how to pray for good things; he is an excellent example; he prayed that God should show him His glory; and he prayed, as I said, that God would make His work manifest to His servants -- which would encourage them. The Lord Jesus here is speaking of the "works of God". God is not narrowed down to very small limits. He is working in a very wide field. He has chosen it; He has rights in it; and He is not reduced to one kind of work either, nor are those who love Him reduced to any particular line of work, they are thinking of the "works of God". It is a question of God.

Then later the disciples are brought into what He is doing. I want to be brought into every movement of Christ, every work of Christ, to observe why He does a thing, what is in His mind. Do not think I am speaking

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theoretically, I am not; the Lord is active, and we need to see how He is moving: as it were, His gestures -- "his eyes behold, his eyelids try the children of men" (Psalm 11:4). "Doth not the ear try words?" (Job 12:11). In hearing ministry we are to try the words and to understand what is being said, what impressions are to be conveyed. All true ministry is from Christ, and by it His people are brought into what He is doing.

But what about this man? Have his parents sinned? No, the Lord says, they had not. Do not bring in here, "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) -- the Lord knows what He is speaking about. Let us judge ourselves for any tendency to be like Martha, to criticise the Lord and assume to know better than He. The Lord is impressing us that He knows all about this man, that his blindness is not a governmental penalty; He is taking him up to display the works of God in him. Now the result is, that the disciples are brought into this; and that is what the Lord is seeking now, to bring us into what He is doing. He tells us, "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".

Then, moreover, He says, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day". Let nobody let his hands hang down. The Lord says, "the night cometh, when no man can work". He is calling us into the work of God. And having said these things He spat on the ground. The Lord is drawing us into what He is doing, and drawing us into it intelligently that we should know what He is doing. One may say, I do not understand that. Well, if you do not understand, ask the Lord; do not be indifferent. You may say, I did not hear what was said. Well, you are obligated to hear what is said, the Lord may call you to account for it, if you do not hear. Sometimes we do not hear what we do not want to hear; but we must hear what the Lord has to say to us. Our passage says,

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"he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle". He did that Himself, and anointed the man's eyes with the clay. There was that which was coming out of Christ, His own essence, as I might say reverently. Think of the marvel of it. The incarnation -- how real it is! And such as can be applied as ointment, for that is the word -- a dignified word! You might say, clay ("mud", New Translation) is not a distinguished word, but "anoint" is an important word, and here the Lord is said to have anointed the man's eyes. He is dealing with the organ of sight. The sequel shows that the man is equal to this; the Lord knew the man.

I hardly know of a man who tests me more as an example than this man in John 9. What a man he was, as he had his eyes opened! In the operation of new birth, the Lord mentions no human action whatever in the subject of it. The operation is purely divine; it is inscrutable, too, but in this matter, the man has to do with the thing; that is, faith is supposed to be in him. He is already constitutionally equal to the operation on the eyes, it is not being done without him. It has no reference to the constitution of the man; it is the organs of sight that are in mind, and the Lord dealing with them, but the man is brought into it, and that tends to make men out of us; to be brought into and to have part in the divine operation; thus, in principle, we become workers with God immediately. This man is working with Christ, he is not rebellious.

The word sent dominates this man. The secret of the whole position publicly today is rebellion against God, there is no idea of being sent -- whereas the truth is that everything must emanate from God. The principle is sent. Christ is sent; the Spirit is sent; this man is sent; the characteristic believer moves as sent, and hence does not fail of the benefits of the works of God. We shall fail in being the manifestation of the works of God, save as we are in subjection to Him. This man comes into it immediately. As sent, he went

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and washed and came seeing. The Lord had gone away, as much as to say, I can trust this man, I can leave this man on the ground. Nicodemus was not honoured like this! The Lord rather conveys a mixed state of things in him, notwithstanding that he comes out well at the end. We do not want to be like Nicodemus, dear brethren. We are thankful for such, but this is the man: the man in John 9 is trustworthy. The Lord says to Nicodemus, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12) He did not know! But this man knew. The moral element was shining out in him. He went to Siloam, and we are told here what Siloam means.

It all enters into the death of the Lord Jesus, for the word sent implies that He would go the whole length required by the will of God; and He has gone that length, to lay down His life. He came "by water and blood", involving Siloam -- "not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth" (1 John 5:6). So that we have the whole truth in the sacrificial coming of Christ and the Spirit here; the water and the blood being effective, and the Spirit here to bear witness. Siloam involves the death of Christ; it involves the word "sent", and christianity involves the word "sent" The Son is sent, the Spirit is sent, the believer is sent. Heaven calls us into this great divine movement -- instead of being independent, assuming to be something ourselves in the pride of our hearts, we are simply sent! There is a beautiful reference to John the baptist in that connection: "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John" (John 1:6).

Well now, this is the moral side of the matter, and I could say much more about it, but I must go on to Luke. What I have said about this man leads us to the mountain; it is a question of the kingdom of God. So the Lord says here, "there be some standing here,

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which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God". We have here the amplification of the Lord's remark in John 3 -- it is a question of the kingdom of God. Matthew 16:28 recording this same wonderful event says, "The Son of man coming in his kingdom". That is a great and glorious thought involving display, literal display; so that Peter refers to it saying, We "were eye-witnesses of his majesty ... when we were with him in the holy mount" (2 Peter 1:16,18). Mark 9:1 quotes the Lord saying, "the kingdom of God come with power". That is specially needed for the service of God. We need the majesty, we need the power, but then we need the thing that the Lord has in mind in its moral significance and bearing, that is, the kingdom of God, and the kind of persons in whom it is displayed.

So He takes up His selected ones, Peter and John and James; He takes them up after about "eight days", and the Lord is going up to pray. Now notice this: in taking them up, He is going up to pray. Now I am speaking of the kind of persons in whom the kingdom of God is displayed. It is a moral question, what exists now: not the coming glory, but the present features that are to be discerned, and discerned in men, and I want to be one of them! I want everybody here to aspire to be one of those in whom this great moral constitution is seen down here. The first thing is that the Lord went up to pray. You might say, There is no need to go up to pray; but the Lord did it. Let us not quarrel with anything He did. There is a reason for it. If we understand the Lord's movements here, we shall attend all the meetings for prayer, if we can. It may be a tax, it was a tax to go up this mountain; in this sense we get very little without being taxed. We are to "buy" the truth. The Lord says to Laodicea, I am ready to sell you anything that you need spiritually. He went up to pray; every step up indicated a dependent Man.

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A dependent Man! Think of Him as compared with the rulers of the world at the present time, or at any time! How they are symbolised in Scripture! What self-assertion often, what independence, what disregard of God, what disregard of the rights of God, and the rights of men, too! But not so with Jesus! He went up to pray, He who made the worlds is going up to pray -- think of that! Think of the moral lesson in that for every one of us! The whole position depends upon it. It is a question of the kingdom of God: not here the kingdom of the Son of man, but of God. The moral sway of God is to be manifest here. He "went up into a mountain to pray. And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered" -- it became different. That is the point -- like the red heifer, it is different; you see, it is not man's kingdom, there is nothing in it at all like man's kingdom, it is the kingdom of God, shining out in a dependent Man in prayer -- changed because of this. The fashion of His countenance became different, and His raiment white and effulgent. It alludes to moral glory, such as you see in a Stephen or a Paul, or any true witness of Jesus, that is the principle; they saw Stephen's face as the face of an angel -- he took on glory! Whoever it be, there is always a change in the countenance and in the raiment too -- he is not conformed to this world: "but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2). The kingdom of God is in view in Romans; it is "not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" (chapter 14:17). A very attractive description!

Now there appeared with Him "two men". The stress is not on who they were as persons of distinction, but that they were men. How God is shining today in men different from the ordinary! We know how young people have ideals, and aspire to be something like them; but the Lord would draw us into the heavenly

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current as to what is really glorious, morally so, for that is the point now. The exceeding weight of glory that is to be displayed in us cannot be put into words! But now it is a question of moral glory, and it shines in Jesus going up to pray, and while He is thus on the mount these two join Him. Two men appearing in glory talked with Him. Peter, James, and John are there, they are there to see, and they saw, as they were fully awake. May God awaken us, if some are asleep! "Having fully awoke", for they did go to sleep even in such a place, showing what our capabilities are, if we fail to judge ourselves. But being fully awake, they see His glory. They see the men too. What a scene!

It is the kingdom of God they are seeing, stripped of all the infirmities that attach to man here -- Moses and Elias in glory! What histories centred in these men! What could be said about Moses and Elijah, whose ministries stand out as part of the kingdom of God! Think of Elijah, how he prayed! He is one of the outstanding praying men; he prayed for a drought, and then he prayed for rain, and he got both. He "prayed with prayer" (James 5:17). And now here he is, shining in the kingdom of God. Then Moses: as I said, he could ask for great things, and one of the greatest things was that Jehovah should show him His glory. "I beseech thee, shew me thy glory" (Exodus 33:18). Other men prayed: a great praying man was Solomon, he prayed that he might have wisdom -- that surely was a bit of moral glory. And then again, Daniel: see how he prayed! He is called "one greatly beloved" as he prayed (Daniel 9:23). He was engaged in prayer and confession on behalf of God's people and the city called by His name. He knew his Bible, too, he knew the dates and what would happen to God's people, and prayed accordingly. That is to say, Daniel is a praying man according to the facts of Scripture. Our prayers must have some real basis, or of what good are they? Scripture is the basis.

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Now all these men cumulatively come into this great system of things, as I am saying, that we are brought into, for it is a question of persons, and we all would, I am sure, seek to be among them. Every saint should have in his mind to be one of the persons in whom the kingdom of God is seen. The Lord said, when one enquired of Him, that the kingdom of God does not come by observation, it is not "Lo here, or Lo there". It is, He said, in the midst of you; and so it is here now, in this room, thank God! Not only here, but as we disperse and go to our several places of abode, our businesses; that is the idea. The kingdom of God is seen in that blessed Man -- a praying Man. His face reflects it, His clothes reflect it -- the last having reference to associations. And then two men can come in and talk with Him; he is not too great a Man to be talked with. Some of us may sit in our chairs in our offices, and be so august, that persons are almost afraid to speak to us. It should not be so.

These two men come in, and they speak to Him. He is the Lord of glory. They speak to Him, not He to them. The kingdom of God requires that I listen to the brethren, my ear is open to them, I am here for them. If I am in the kingdom of God, I am to serve, I am to be in accord with it, to be in my measure a representation of it. Thus people will see it in me. If they have eyes opened, they will. I am to be a guide to them. They will say, I want to go where that man goes; to pray as he prays; to read the Bible as he; to understand as he does. I want to be a husband with a spirit like his, a master like him, a servant like him -- that is the idea. It is a question of the kingdom of God. Even a slave is to "adorn the doctrine" (Titus 2:10), it is a question of the kingdom, so that men may see it.

Then heaven's appreciation comes in here. Heaven is opened on Jesus. "This is my beloved Son: hear him". Here it is not "In whom I am well pleased", as in Matthew 17:5, but "hear him". Applied to the saints,

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the point is, that men like this, in whatever measure they may come up to it, are pleasing to heaven, and they are to be heard. "Hear him". Of course it refers supremely to Jesus, but you want to pay attention to men like this; men like Jesus: hear them! They have something to say to help us. The Lord opened Lydia's heart "to attend to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14).

I now call attention to the eyes that the Lord speaks of in Luke 10. "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see". He is calling attention not to blind eyes, but to eyes that are blessed; the believer's organs are all blessed; his "members" are to be presented as instruments of righteousness to God, and as used by the Spirit they are blessed; and now the Lord is speaking about our eyes. It is a remarkable passage. "He turned him", it says, "unto his disciples", as much as to say, You are the ones that are in My mind. What a thought, dear brethren, that heaven is turned towards us! Heaven is complacent in the people of God as they take on these traits of Jesus, these heavenly traits that we have been considering.

And this would include the themes and manner of our conversations. Think of the holy converse on the mount! Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus about what He was going to do, about His departure which He was about to accomplish in Jerusalem -- were talking to Him! He was not talking to them about it; it was a question of His listening to them -- showing the Man that is presented to us here in the kingdom of God. On the one hand, He is the Man to listen to, and on the other hand, He is listening to others. As an example, the Lord shows us here that we should be ready to listen to others.

But what a great matter it was -- His exodus which He should accomplish at Jerusalem. Moses would understand that word; he knew all about the exodus in the Old Testament, but now the word had application to Jesus. Later the Lord began "from Moses" in

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speaking to two about Himself (Luke 24:27). In the types, in which he had so much part, Moses spoke of the outgoing of Christ through death. Now he is speaking to the Lord, on the mount, of the actual thing -- what He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem! What a subject! How suitable! It is a question of what is suitable to be brought in at any given time, and it was suitable to bring this subject in at such a time! It is a question of the kingdom of God, for there could be no kingdom of God available to men save by the death of Jesus. He had to go out that way. As to personal right, He might have gone out from the mount where He was; they were not talking of that possibility, but of His going down, going out by death at Jerusalem; to suffer at the hands of wicked men, and die to accomplish redemption. The kingdom of God required that.

But as I was saying, He turned to His disciples and said, "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see". As the saints today are occupied with the things of God, He is, as it were, turned towards them, and He wishes us to understand that our eyes, and all our organs, are blessed. It is a question of what we see, and that is another thing worthy of mention, what is visible now, what the Lord is bringing to our attention: the great and glorious things that have been unfolded to us, through the ministry of the last hundred years, thank God! "Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see", He says, "For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them". Let us allow ourselves to be drawn into the divine current about these matters. What there is to be seen as we have eyes! The Lord would assure us that we are blessed in seeing them and in hearing them, too, for ears are spoken of here as well; and in Matthew 13:16 ears that hear are said to be blessed also.

May the Lord bless what I have said tonight, according to what there is in it by the Spirit, to every one of us.

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THE LORD ENTERING INTO PERSONAL RELATIONS WITH HIS OWN

Acts 9:3,4,6; Matthew 14:22,23; Luke 24:36 - 39

These scriptures afford us instruction as to how the Lord enters into personal relations with His own. In our days the Spirit is enlarging for us on the great thought of the divine economy; the order of things into which God has come, and, in coming, has revealed at the same time, the great fact of the Trinity; each holy Person in it being recognised in the order in which He is seen, and in which He functions, in view of the great purpose on hand. So we have the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit; the Son having taken on the ministerial and mediatorial services, and thus having peculiarly to do with us; His services establishing personal links. In doing so He brings the Father near, for as in the economy we find not only direct teaching as to the holy Persons, but facts incidentally stated, which gradually operate to enable us to fit in to the economy, so that we are not strangers in it.

The Lord Jesus seems to take peculiar pleasure in saying, in these circumstances and this service, at certain times, "It is I"; sometimes calling individuals by name; though this is not new to our dispensation, nor distinctive of it. It may be said, however, that all the dispensations have this one in mind, for in speaking on this line the apostle says to the Corinthians, "upon whom the ends of the ages [or dispensations] are come" (1 Corinthians 10:11); all has our dispensation in view. Whatever happened or whatever is written, all is for us, and the apostle Paul, with characteristic forcefulness, says, "all things are yours. Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas ... all are yours; and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's" (1 Corinthians 3:23). So that we are bound up in this economy, not as silent partners, so to speak, or inactive, but aglow with interest; that is the intent.

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However lethargic we may be, from the divine side all is active; the angels above are always on the alert to note any repentance effected by the operations of God in us. Any little movement in any one who may have been lagging behind is taken notice of there, even to second or third conversions. The keenest interest exists all the time, and history is being made above, of what transpires here below.

So that one designedly takes up Saul of Tarsus first, to make application of these remarks -- the greatest servant, one can say unhesitatingly as to him -- but I take him up not so much to speak of his service, but to show that he is an example, indeed, as he calls himself, "a delineation of those about to believe ... to life eternal" (1 Timothy 1:16). This includes every one of us, so that the Lord takes him up, according to the first account we have, impressing him at once with the saints; and if we make a present application, this is important. If the Lord is taking anybody up now, He would speak to him in relation to the saints, as much as to say, You are to be bound up with them both for time and for eternity, and you must regard them rightly; you must have right thoughts of them, and make the most of them. You must learn to see that they are worthy of your confidence and of your love. This was what Saul of Tarsus, like each of us, had to learn.

We have two other accounts, by himself, of this incident; they vary from this, particularly in this matter of the saints. In the last one, that is made before Agrippa, he leaves out the matter of the saints, for it was a question of his ministry. This would be intelligible to the king and those personages with him, who were conversant with Roman order and rank; they would understand how the Lord of glory, as Paul would have them to know Him, appointed him a minister, delivering him from the Jews and from the nations, to whom He would send him to open their eyes. It was of no consequence to Agrippa and his friends to

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be told about the matter of the saints, although the apostle very affectionately does allude to "our whole twelve tribes", but it was of no consequence to them that there should be such a man in Damascus as Ananias or that there should be a meeting of saints in Damascus. They might however be impressed by the fact that this man who was a prisoner before their eyes was in truth a minister of Jesus Christ, not simply a servant, but a minister; he used the word that implies relative dignity.

In speaking at Jerusalem regarding the facts, Paul makes much of Ananias as a pious Jew and in favour with the Jews, and indeed he goes so far as to discredit himself in saying that he lingered as regards baptism, so that Ananias had to urge him to be baptised (Acts 22:16). The apostle was conveying to his Jewish audience that he was not rushing into christianity, he was urged into it, and no one who understands christianity in its greatness and glory and blessedness, could fail to urge people to enter into it. Ananias had said, "why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name". The Spirit of God does not give us the account fully here in Acts 9, although the facts were doubtless known in measure to all. Luke would have heard about them, but the Spirit of God gives us the account through Luke, and what is stressed is what was in Damascus; the Lord first calling the name of Saul twice, which is a matter to be noted. It is not new; it was not peculiar to him, because others had been signalised in like manner, especially Abraham, Moses, and Samuel; but what is evidently implied is that this person is peculiarly in the Lord's mind. Of course every christian is peculiarly in the Lord's mind; the Lord would always give us to understand that each is a special one, for in truth each one has his own distinction. Divine results will not be complete until each one, selected according to divine foreknowledge, is secured; so the apostle says "I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that

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they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Timothy 2:10). He had that great thought that each of the elect should obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Each one is needed for the divine purpose, each has his own distinction.

Nevertheless Saul is especially singled out; and the first word to him is, "why persecutest thou me?" meaning the saints. The Lord is beginning at the bottom with him. He would henceforth be bound up with the saints both for time and for eternity, to love and to serve them. No one, as far as Scripture shows, had such a view, and such an impression of them from the very outset. I am speaking of this now, dear brethren, so that each of us might be impressed accordingly in his measure, for the Lord would impress each of us with the saints and what they are to Him. In fact, in the sense in which we have it here, they are Himself. We are apt to think lightly of the saints, and if any little opportunity arises, to speak ill of them. It may be to cover an ignominious retreat -- someone seeking to find a place in the world hides his wretched apostasy, for that is what it is in principle, by calling attention to discrepancies among the brethren. Heaven will not admit of that at all, for the Lord resents it peculiarly, but it is very patent that it is current. The enemy finds avenues of attack through such ignoble, despicable motives. How much less discreditable it would be for such an one to tell the truth, and openly state that he wants the world. Satan finds avenues of attack through such motives, and other kinds of motives, too, in order to malign the saints, sometimes leavening a whole district by misrepresentation of the saints in other districts, or it may be a servant. Leaven of that kind gets in and works, and it takes time to eradicate it; in some instances it is not eradicated.

So this great servant was converted under the circumstances described in the verses in Acts 9 which I

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read. He was to be minister of the gospel in a special way, and of the assembly, involving the mystery -- having that wonderful ministry to which the saints are essential; in that mystery being hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. It was that he might be impressed with the saints; that he might see that the saints are essential to him, first of all in telling him what to do. You may say, The Lord will tell me what to do. Do not forget that the Lord sent this great convert to the saints, in fact, He sent him into Damascus. He was teaching him by inference, in a way even more effective than by direct words. As much as to say, Saul, you know I do not mean you to go to the Mayor of Damascus, nor the City Council; you will understand by My sending you to Damascus that there are those there who belong to Me, whom I regard as Myself; I have just called them Myself, I have just asked you why are you persecuting Me. Would Paul ever forget that question? Persecution of the saints is common, as I have already intimated, not in the sense of dragging them before tribunals perhaps, although that is coming in now, too, but in the sense of maligning them, accusing and belittling them. There is much of that, and the Lord would say to anyone of us who is doing it in any way at this moment, Why are you doing it?; you are doing it to Me, you are persecuting Me.

Then another thing here is that the Lord having conveyed to Saul that He had something in Damascus, makes him know also that He had those in Damascus who could instruct him. I may ask in passing, dear brethren, Where is there anyone who will instruct you really as to God, save those who have the Spirit of God, and who recognise the Spirit of God, those who are pious, like Ananias? You may go to seminaries, colleges, universities, but they will not tell you what to do as subject to the will of God. They will instruct you as to many things, but they will not tell you what heaven wants you to do. On the other hand,

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there are those who know what heaven wants, and they will tell you; that is the point. Thank God there are such, and the Lord is concerned about them, so that if a convert or a convicted person comes to them, they will know how to meet him. That is another side of the matter; I am speaking about the saints, and the Lord is concerned that, if we are enquired of, we may be able to tell people what to do. People all around are asking -- if they are not asking in words, the question is in their hearts -- What am I to do? Well, the Lord would convey to such that there are people who can tell you, and it is for you to find them.

Here the Lord does not wait for Saul to say, What shall I do? We get it later, of course, but the point here is not that, but that the Lord is anticipating the fact that he needs to know what to do. He always anticipates the needs of His people, and Saul's need at this particular time was to know what he should do. The Lord says, There are people who can tell you; go into Damascus; the Lord inferring thus that there are those that can tell you what to do; and so as to make the matter complete, the Lord goes before him into Damascus. He can go quicker than any other, there is no locomotion like His: we have an illustration of it in Elijah, who told Ahab that he heard the sound of rain, and that he should go to Samaria, but Elijah girded up his loins and went before him, in spite of his chariot (1 Kings 18); and so the Lord is always before us. He was before Saul in Damascus, at least He was with Ananias before Saul met him, and he prepared Ananias to do what was needful in order to serve this convert.

So the lesson is the Lord coming into the circumstances of a Saul, and stressing the fact of His saints. If there is one here who thinks he can get along without them, it is a mistake, the Lord indicates that you cannot. Even when you go up to heaven you will go with them; we are to be all raised up together. So this convert is with the disciples; the Lord sent Ananias to him,

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and Ananias set him at rest, calling him brother. It may be there is someone here, lonely in his soul, isolated; you are assuming perhaps that you must go on by yourself, there are none you can go on with. The Lord would say to you, "go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". Not only will those to whom you are sent tell you what to do, but they will love you and make you at home. One of the finest types in the Old Testament, I think, is the feast of tabernacles; it refers to the households of God's people, the families, where love is, not in an abstract way, as we speak of it sometimes in our addresses and reading meetings, but love shown, that is the idea of the feast of tabernacles. The Lord said to His disciples, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", (John 13:35). The feast of tabernacles recognises that; it is the saints together in outwardly small circumstances near to one another, so that love can have free course; and if there is anyone here at all isolated in his spirit, cold, and thinking, it may be, that nobody loves him, the Lord would say to you, not only that He loves you, but there are those here that love you too -- go into the city, as it were, and you will find them.

Now I pass on to Matthew, and what you get in this remarkable passage is that the saints are together under the Lord's compelling influence. If there is anyone here such as I suggested, you would do well to take this to heart, that in this feature of the subject before us there is no option. To remain isolated is not optional, it is lawlessness; that is another side of the matter, so we are told that the Lord compelled the disciples to go into the ship, they had no option in the matter. It very often is our salvation to be reminded of authority, for we are prone to think that as regards divine things all is optional, but no, there is nothing optional; all is imperative, even in regard to repentance; God commands it (Acts 17:30), but particularly with

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regard to the saints' associations, He compelled them to go into the ship.

These verses in Matthew 14 are dispensational, that is, the boat has a meaning in that connection, the Lord not being in it at the outset, but entering it later. What is in mind here is that the disciples were directed or compelled by the Lord to enter into certain circumstances. He was praying for them from above, but they are there under His compulsion, and the enemy would like to upset that position, to defeat the divine intent in it. So the wind was contrary to them, and the sea became agitated. Applying it now it would be the Lord giving us to understand that our position in relation to the things of God is not optional. He would have each of us in a certain setting, He would have each to be with the saints, with his brethren. Why should anyone be isolated? Well, you may say, the brethren get into trouble, and I do not want to share their troubles. Well, the sea became agitated, for the wind blew; that is, Satan would upset that position, but then it is educational, this matter of the agitation of the sea, for what are we if we do not experience some little adversity here? We are not worth being called christians, unless we are ready to face a little opposition, or a big opposition, whatever it may be, good soldiers of Jesus Christ, or good seamen, as it were.

You may think that if you remain in isolation or in some human association you will avoid all this sorrow, but then we want to see how the Lord comes into such circumstances as these, the sorrows and troubles of the saints. As compelled into a certain position by Him, we must be safe there, no ill can befall us there. It is education, the Lord would instruct us as to Himself, and He would draw us to His side in these circumstances into which He has come, for in this instance He came into their circumstances -- not at first into the boat, but on the sea near the boat, And now the

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next question is what am I to do, if He is in that position and I am in this position? What were the twelve to do when troubles and persecutions arose as at the time of Stephen's martyrdom? They remained at Jerusalem, they did not, as it were, leave the boat. I am not discrediting these servants, because their names are in the foundations of the heavenly city, and that means that, from the divine point of view, everyone of these men did his work; the Lord gave to every man his work, and each man did his work, or his name would not be in the foundation of the city. But they did not leave Jerusalem, whereas others did, and the Spirit of God went with these others, the scattered ones, as much as to say, They have taken to the sea, they have left the boat, they are walking on an agitated sea, scattered by persecution; but they are quite composed, superior to their circumstances, and as in them they are preaching Christ, and they are getting souls, too.

Now, dear brethren, what is meant is that the forsaking of a position in which Christ has placed us must depend on His command. If I have to move from any given position in which He has placed me; if His instructions require that I am to be in it, then I must await His command before leaving, nothing is optional. The saint has to learn that every step of the way is to be at His commandment. The word is not "bid" but "command". Peter says, "command me". I do not know why Peter did not say that when Stephen was martyred. He stayed in Jerusalem, although the Lord had said, "when they persecute you in this city, flee to the other" (Matthew 10:23). Most of the saints were scattered; they became part of "the dispersion". They had to walk on the sea, as it were, the troubled sea that arose on the persecution of Stephen; and they joined the Lord in that way. He had, as it were, commanded them; it was perfectly evident from His instructions to the twelve, that the time had come to leave the boat.

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Well now, someone here may be in such a boat. You may say, I was converted there. Thank God, if you were; wherever you were converted, we can thank God for the conversion, but being converted in a certain setting does not mean in itself that you are to remain there. The Lord is not in the public profession. Where is He? That is the point now. You say, Well, just now you have been telling me to stick to the saints; to get amongst them. That is true, but I am speaking now about a boat, and a boat is typically what fits into the water, the agitated thing, it fits in. There is not a sect in christendom -- not that I am here to accuse -- but there is not a sect in christendom that does not fit in with the world in some sense; not one. If I were to go over each one consecutively I could show you how they fit in, whereas there is a position today that does not fit into the world. The Lord was walking on the sea, it does not say He was walking on agitated waters, He was walking on the sea. That is a new thing for man, it was unheard of before. People say, Well, this thought of leaving worldly religious associations is new, it is unheard of. Well, it may be unheard of in your ears, but that does not mean it is unheard of.

So the Lord is saying, maybe to someone here, I am in circumstances in which you are not, but still it is I, and I am in them in relation to you, to the end that you should come into them. The Lord could have gone round the lake, He could have gone over it divinely, He was not walking on the water just to get across, but He was walking on the water in relation to them. They were in the boat, and they were troubled. One would be thankful if all the christians in this city were troubled about some movement of Jesus. He is moving all the time, walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps. Would that every christian in humanly organised associations were troubled about His movements, it would be an indication that there was something of God in them, some hope, but alas! there are

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very few troubled about it. Perhaps you do not know anything about His movements, and yet He is walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps.

Now, the Lord is walking on the water and the disciples are troubled; they thought He was a spirit; they were hazy and unspiritual, but still He was there in relation to them; that is why He was there. He is drawing near to them, walking on the sea, but the waters are troubled, they are agitated, and the Lord says, "It is I, be not afraid". Assuring words! The One who has said "I Jesus", says, when referring to the saints, They are Myself; that is what He had said to Paul, but now it is not that. The saints are in the boat, the associations of the boat, and Jesus is alone, nearby on the sea; He is there in relation to those in the boat. He is walking on the water in relation to them, as I said. He is in this city moving in relation to someone or many. Is anyone interested enough to notice? He says, "It is I, be not afraid", and Peter said, "Lord". Here is one who is interested, only just one, interested enough to say, "Lord, if it be thou, command me". It is a question of the Lord's authority, and this extends to us all. If anyone is not in the right association He would call you out. The object in what He is saying is that you might ask Him, "if it be thou, command me". Does the Lord's authority require that I should move? Yes, it does! Then it is imperative that I should do so, and so Peter went down out of the ship and walked on the waters to go to Jesus.

Now some of you may not have noticed that it was the strength of the wind that caused Peter's fear. But the Lord had ordered him to come to Him on the water, and hence Peter was perfectly safe in doing so; but he did not use his mind in faith. Our minds are under our control, our eyes are under our control; hence I must not be baffled by them. If I am moving under the Lord's authority, I am safe, and I must not be discouraged by feelings arising from opposition.

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I have an eye and I have a mind, and I may allow them to rule me, whereas the teaching in Romans 7:25 is that I am to rule them. "I myself with the mind serve God's law". What is God's law? Well, God's law was implied in "command me to come to thee on the waters", and the Lord said "Come". That is God's law. Whatever people say about the laws of nature, the laws of God are above the laws of nature. "Command me". This was to Peter an untried law, but moving in the recognition of it, all would be well. All such laws speak for themselves. Here was Peter, his feet were sinking in the waters, it was because of his mind, which he ought to have used to serve God's law in walking. This is important, do not let yourself be governed by what you should control. Why should I think of the strength of the waves, I am not sinking; the Lord Jesus has said, "Come". A divine law was operating, and that is as sure as the foundation of the earth. It was through giving way, allowing his mind to carry him away, that he began to sink. There is much instruction in all this for everyone here, to be steadily under the command of Christ. Whatever it is you may have to leave, do not be afraid. If you are serving God's law, if Christ says "Come", all is well as you move to Him; you cannot be safer than as obeying.

Then the dispensational thought arises, namely, that the Lord goes into the ship, meaning that it is the Jewish ship, and they come to land. The effect of all this is that those in the ship are helped, they worship Jesus. I mean by this that if there is anyone moving on these lines, coming under the Lord's direction and compulsion and finally His command, then others will be affected; it is a movement. One hears constantly of little or no movement in some places, little or no addition; no outside material secured. Well, this is the way to it, it is moving under the Lord's compulsion and command, and serving God's law ("I myself with

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the mind serve God's law"), and the effect is that others are affected. Here all that were in the boat came and worshipped Jesus, and said, "Truly thou art God's Son". That is increase.

Finally, just a word as to Luke. I wanted to show that the Lord coming in at this time says "I myself". He had said to those in the boat, "It is I", and to Saul, "I am Jesus", alluding to the saints as His body, but now He has come into their midst, that is the next thing; and we have the pronoun added: "Jesus himself"; as much as to say, These are My own circumstances. Walking on the sea is not characteristic of His circumstances, He is doing it for a purpose; to lead others to do it; to teach us how to walk, and to be superior to our circumstances, however bad they may be. Now He has what He may call His own circumstances. How attractive that thought is! And what you will notice is, that it is amongst the saints, as those who are talking about Him and His things -- the assembly in its public aspect. He has come in there and it is "Jesus himself". We get it indeed earlier when He is seeking to recover two that belonged to the assembly, but who were going away from it, turning their backs on it, though belonging to it -- "two of you". We may say, it is always Himself to those of the assembly; so that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them. To any two, or one, turning away from the truth of the assembly, and yet belonging to it, the Lord says, You belong to Me, and you belong to the assembly -- "two of you". It is not only that you belong to Christ, but you belong to the assembly, the most august body in the universe. The Lord would impress us with that. But if you are turning your back on the assembly, you are not characteristically of it, although still belonging to it. Jesus Himself drew near, as much as to say, You are of these people, you belong to the assembly: why should you be elsewhere? Jesus Himself drew near and went with them, and then,

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when they go back to the assembly, Jesus Himself stood in their midst; it is His own sphere.

The Lord is greatly helping His people on this point, and I bring it forward now so as to confirm us in what is being done by Him, and if there are any inclined to move away, the Lord would say, You belong to the assembly, do not forget that your place is there. These two had come back, and they were talking about Jesus, they were telling the others that He was made known to them in the breaking of bread, a sure evidence that they belonged to the company. What could they know about the breaking of bread if they did not belong to that company? What does any one in a humanly-made organisation today know about the breaking of bread? There they do not understand it, they call it 'the sacrament'. It is not the Lord's supper; but the two at Emmaus belonged to the assembly, and hence knew something of the breaking of bread, and they can tell others that the Lord had appeared to them in the way, and that "he was made known to them in the breaking of bread". Then, as they were saying these things, the Lord "himself" stood in their midst. He is now in His own circumstances, normally circumstances corresponding to what He has in heaven. He says, "it is I myself. Handle me and see". He is not a spirit merely; a spirit has not flesh and bones.

May the Lord give us to ponder this beautiful expression, "it is I myself", and cause it to rest in our souls! And let us not only be content in the position into which He has brought us, but let us be as those who are baptised in the power of the one Spirit, into one body, and who drinking into one Spirit are thus satisfied, and see that we can provide the Lord with what He regards as His own circumstances.

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MASCULINE LOVE

1 Samuel 18:1 - 16; John 21:15 - 19

J.T. This subject, as it comes before us, may stimulate our love for Christ, and help us to see that love is graded in Scripture. This type in Samuel brings out what we may speak of as masculine love as over against feminine love, the latter alluding to what is collective, whether in the assembly or in Israel. The former, masculine love, is more personal, which Jonathan seems to represent in Scripture, for David compares his love with feminine love, and says it surpasses the latter. So that it may be taken to represent a more steady and intelligent kind of love that takes form in brethren as such, perhaps entering into the most exalted relation into which we are brought.

E.M. What place has the speaking of David in relation to the formation of the love you have just mentioned as characteristic of Jonathan?

J.T. Well, it is important, because it enters into the love that was begotten in Jonathan, and helps in what has been remarked, that it is the most exalted kind of love in so far as seen in this chapter and commented on in 2 Samuel 1. Jonathan was evidently affected by what he saw in David, not only in his military exploits, but in his personal character as speaking to Saul. Chapter 17:57,58 says, "as David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, Abner took him, and brought him before Saul with the head of the Philistine in his hand. And Saul said to him, Whose son art thou, young man? And David said, I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Beth-lehemite". Great as were the exploits of David from a military point of view, it would seem that in his demeanour he retained what was proper to him in speaking to the king; although the king was not inducing good feeling by his tone and manner. Certainly his address to

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David was not calculated to draw out the best feelings in David, for he ought to have known him, and yet professed not to know him. Jonathan must have observed this; he must have known David, too, though he does not say so, for he had been in the house of Saul; but he is not affected in an envious way by what must have overshadowed him, for he was a great military man, too, and a worker with God, as earlier history shows. His military attainments only added to his affection; that is to say, the greater a man is by spiritual formation and experience, the greater will be his love for Christ.

H.C. Do we get the counterpart in the New Testament, when Saul said, "Who art thou, Lord", and the Lord said, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest" -- is that the same kind of spirit?

J.T. Yes, that would lead to Paul's love for Christ. I suppose we may take the apostle Paul as the greatest lover of Christ. Although John is said to be the disciple whom Jesus loved, Paul is presented as the greatest lover of Christ, which illustrates what we were remarking, the character of the masculine love, as over against feminine love, which has a collective sense.

W.T. It would help us to remember that David bore attractive features personally, as chapter 16 shows.

J.T. Yes, his beauty is noticed; even in the presence of Goliath on the battlefield, he did not lose it; he was not so under the influence of the moment as to lose his attractiveness. The Philistine had no taste for it, nor does it appear that Jonathan was affected until David had finished speaking to Saul, then, "it came to pass, when he had ended speaking to Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David". So the kind of love seen in Jonathan is thus developed -- a man's love. Intelligence enters into it and it is calculated; not simply a love that overcomes at the moment; it is calculated love and therefore steady.

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Ques. How would you connect this speaking between Saul and David with the Lord?

J.T. The way the leading men of the Jews spoke to Him, the tenor of their remarks was generally to discredit the Lord; take Simon the Pharisee, he spoke in his heart, saying, "This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner" (Luke 7:39) -- that would discredit the Lord; the influence he would exert in his house would discredit the Lord, but the Lord's reply would affect the woman. She was under great reproach in that house, and so was Christ, but she loved Him in spite of the conditions.

Ques. Would David's answer to Saul -- "I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Beth-lehemite" -- move Jonathan to appreciate the intrinsic worth of David more than his military exploits?

J.T. I think so. It must have been the moral qualities in the man as he spoke to Saul that affected Jonathan. How entirely free David was of any disadvantage in the presence of the king! It was moral superiority. If I love Christ viewed thus, it is more masculine, studied love.

H.P.W. Is it the thought that came out in John the baptist? The scripture says, "looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:36), as if it was love resulting from reflection.

J.T. I think so. What was there would draw out his affection. All John's remarks in this gospel are mature, balanced remarks. He says, "I knew him not" (verse 33) -- he was not influenced by his natural relationship to the Lord when he saw Him coming to him. He had spoken well of Him before; he had said, to the messengers that came from Jerusalem, that he was not worthy to untie His sandals. He says, moreover, He is "preferred before me" (verse 30), that is a yet earlier knowledge, as you might say, a spiritual apprehension of Christ. Now in the history of David in these chapters we have the same

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thing, the same opportunity for anyone who has spiritual formation, for David is mentioned, without being named, as already displacing Saul, in chapter 13. Then, in chapter 16, he is actually anointed and presented by the Spirit of God as very attractive; any one who came within the range of all that, if he was spiritual, would be affected without even meeting the person. Apparently, John had not been acquainted with Christ, but he is humble, dependent, and balanced, and so he is ready for the great event as he sees the Lord coming to him. This great Person ordinarily coming to one would tend to incite certain natural feelings, but John had already said, He is "preferred before me", that is, John is displaced in his own mind, so is ready for the great occasion. When he saw Jesus coming to him he said, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (verse 29), that is calculated, referring to the scriptural significance of the word "lamb", the Baptist understanding it. That is why I say that in Jonathan and in John the baptist it is calculated love for Christ, it is something you may reckon on, it is love for the Son of God, begotten by the glory of His Person, in great persons, and the persons certainly must add to the love. Hence the next day, after thinking over it, we may say, when he saw Jesus walking -- not now coming to him, but walking -- he said, "Behold the Lamb of God", that is an expression of affection and admiration; and John the baptist, in John's gospel, is a sort of model for us, for he starts with the idea, I am displaced in my own mind. Someone is taking a place in my mind before myself.

H.P.W. In connection with the intrinsic worth of the Person, which comes out at the beginning of John's gospel, I was thinking of the address to Philadelphia, where the Lord presents Himself as the Holy and the True. This intrinsic moral worth appeals to our affections.

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G.C.S. Would it be masculine love in John 17:26 -- "that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them"? It was the Lord speaking, and then Judas as betraying Him appears in the next chapter.

J.T. That is so. You cannot get greater love than that -- the Father's love for the Son, and that that love should be in us is a very wonderful thing.

E.M. The Father's love for the Son springing up in our hearts.

J.T. Yes, so that you can love Him relatively as the Father loves Him -- that must be the greatest love we can have. The love spoken of by the Lord in verse 24 should, I think, be regarded by itself, as the love of one divine Person for Another before incarnation.

Ques. "The love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died" (2 Corinthians 5:14). Would that be calculation?

J.T. Just so -- "having judged this". Intelligence should and does enter into what we may call masculine love; that is, what develops in the brethren viewed in an individual or personal sense.

Ques. Did you use the expression, Love as the result of formation?

J.T. Yes, as the result of a combination of things that go to make a man. I think Jonathan had that combination. He was a sufferer from Saul, his father. He was by him brought to the very point of death, and he was a military man, who, like David, had gained a great victory over the Philistines. In that conflict, too, he showed that he could be very small in exercising his military powers. Therefore, he was able to value the demeanour of David, the simplicity with which he spoke to Saul -- "I am the son of thy servant Jesse the Beth-lehemite". According to chapter 16, Saul would have known Jesse the Beth-lehemite, and David, too, but there is no admission of this with him; he represents the supercilious man, and it is over against

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Saul's attitude in these chapters that this remarkable love for David springs up in Jonathan.

H.G. Are you connecting the thought of the masculine love more with the individual?

J.T. It is seen in the brethren, I think, characteristically. The Lord is leading many sons to glory; that is not a collective organic thought, it is so many persons, but the most wonderful persons -- outside the divine Persons -- in the universe; and these persons must have love in keeping with their greatness, and I think that is what is in mind. God is leading, or bringing, many sons to glory and He has made the Leader of their salvation perfect through sufferings. That is, He has entered into that state of humanity through sufferings, therefore He is not ashamed to call us brethren -- "both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren" (Hebrews 2:11,12). Then the assembly comes in; but the idea of the brethren seems to be the greatest idea of manhood next to Christ -- He is anointed above them, but they are capable of more reciprocated affection and intelligence than any other family.

E.M. Does the Lord wait on us, that we might be prepared to commit ourselves in this energy of affection?

J.T. Quite so. Jonathan loved him as his own soul; it is all put on the side of Jonathan. David comments on the character of this love afterwards; and we are told that, when it became a question of separation, David exceeded Jonathan in weeping as they kissed one another. What is in mind here is the quality of Jonathan's love.

Ques. What is the connection of covenant here?

J.T. Well, you feel, if you love a person in this way, you want to be with him for ever; a covenant is a bond involving calling for trustworthiness. We know Jonathan did not go all the way, but still the love was there. Peter's history in the New Testament shows

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that this kind of thing is followed out to the limit by the Lord, showing it was in His mind. He never gave up the thought of Peter's confession of love, it was no vain or hollow thing, and the Lord knew this; knowing all things, as Peter urges; but in the end, Peter changes the word from conscious knowledge, to objective knowledge, in saying he had affection for the Lord, to show that there was evidence that the thing was really there, and the Lord did not deny this. It is not merely hidden love, that the Lord only could know, it is a manifested love, that can be known by observation.

J.T.S. Have we anything in the nature of a contrast in the beginning of Luke 8, in the twelve with Him and the women and others who ministered to Him of their substance? Would you carry forward the character of love in Luke 7 to that?

J.T. I was just going to remark that Luke 7 is the background of that; it is a love begotten in most withering circumstances. All the circumstances tended to wither up what was there, but love was too strong, it survived; so the Lord turned to the woman, and the explanation is, "she loved much". It does not go so far as what we are speaking of here, it is the kind of love that is begotten of grace. The Lord says, She is forgiven much; I suppose that is the way love begins with all of us, but the time arrives when we look at the Lord from another point of view, not simply as to what has accrued to us through Him, but as to what is there; I become capable of admiration of what is there, apart from needs met -- I am great enough to think of Christ in that way. It would be like the case of the widow later on in Luke, she gave all she had, and the Lord immediately began to speak of the temple, that every stone should disappear, meaning, among other things, that that woman's affection for the house of God was too great for a stone building, it must have another building. So the woman's affection in Luke 7 was too great for the system that Levi represented.

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No doubt she would be among the women who ministered to Him; she was, at any rate, qualified to be there.

L.D.M. Love as John presents it is too great for the Jewish system. John the baptist says, "He must increase, but I must decrease" -- he says this after the discussion with a Jew about purification, and then there is the introduction by the evangelist of the Father's love to the Son.

H.C. Would it be seen in what the Lord says in the message to the disciples (John 20)? He was looking upon those in whom this love was formed.

J.T. Yes. I believe they represent the full result, you get it only in John; the Authorised Version says in the nineteenth verse, "where the disciples were assembled", but it is not that, it is "where the disciples were".

Rem. "The men whom thou gavest me" are referred to in chapter 17:6.

J.T. That helps. There are babes in Christ, but there are men in Christ, too -- we have to bear that in mind. Hence, when they had the Father's love in them, where were there any like them? Think of being possessed of the kind of love the Father has for the Son!

Ques. Would the work of God, effective inwardly, result in the great end of God in securing men spiritually?

J.T. It would. In assembly service the collective idea comes first, the feminine side, the body, but what we are speaking of now is the more exalted side -- the brethren.

Ques. In Ephesians 4 the ministry has in view that we should be brought to "the full-grown man ... the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ". Would that correspond?

J.T. Yes. We would be no longer babes. Not that you would deny that a babe in Christ loves Christ, but it is this kind of love we are speaking of that should ever be aimed at.

H.C. A lover of Christ is too great for any human

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system. Would Paul illustrate that when he says, "For if the things I have thrown down, these I build again, I constitute myself a transgressor"; then he says, "I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God" (Galatians 2:18 - 20). Would one get the thought there of the greatest sphere in which this love could be known?

J.T. Yes; the sphere involves the house, and the Son only could build the house. The great idea of love is in relation to the Son, and our loving is akin to that, as God's sons. David even could not build a house great enough for divine Persons; it must be God's Son. It is God's house, and Christ is over it as Son. We have part in it as God's sons and Christ's brethren.

E.M. Jonathan missed this. He sought to detain David in Saul's house, but David was too great for so narrow a system.

J.T. Yes. Jonathan never became detached from Saul's system; he never followed David, and today there are many like him. But in this particular passage Jonathan, I think, represents what we are speaking about, although the sequel, as we have said, shows that he did not go the full length. The Lord says, "Follow me" to Peter; Jonathan never followed David, and he died in the world, as we might say. Many will end thus; the Lord disciplines us that we should not be judged with the world.

Ques. Does Ittai come in as one who went the whole way -- after the speaking of David?

J.T. Beautifully so, he stands over against Jonathan in that sense -- "surely in what place my lord the king shall be, whether in death or life, even there also will thy servant be" (2 Samuel 15:21). David says, "Go and pass over" -- he was fit to be with the king in his rejection. That is his honour. The reality of his profession was manifest. Christians in the systems of men have no idea of the disparity there is between them and the systems they are in -- to say nothing of

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the evil that is there; such systems are not great enough for the sons of God.

Ques. Would not Barnabas be like Jonathan, in bringing his possessions and laying them at the apostles' feet, but afterwards failing to go the whole way with the brethren?

J.T. Yes, I think he stripped himself in the presence of Saul of Tarsus, and yet he did not go the whole way.

Rem. John's two disciples followed Jesus, and the Lord turned and saw them following, and said, "What seek ye?" Then they say, "Rabbi ... where abidest thou?" and the Lord says to them, "Come and see" (John 1:38,39). Is that what is to be reached, drawn by the attraction of Christ personally?

J.T. That is right. The two that followed Jesus went the whole way there, and I think what we are speaking about was reflected in Peter. Barnabas was a son of consolation; he was so styled by the apostles, and he stripped himself, laying all at the apostles' feet. Later he laid whatever dignity he had among the apostles at Paul's feet, as a better man than himself, and yet he failed soon after, but I believe by the way Paul speaks of him he was restored. Peter was carried away by certain dissimilation, the Jewish influence in Jerusalem, and so was Barnabas; they really turned away from Paul, yet at the end, when about to lay down his life, Peter says, "our beloved brother Paul". I think he went the full length, he fully recognised Paul; and he puts his writings on the level of Scripture, saying "as also the other scriptures" (2 Peter 3:15,16). I think Peter exemplifies what we are speaking of in a complete way, although having become cloudy for a while. Paul as owned among the saints at Damascus went to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Peter, and stayed with him fifteen days; a link would then be formed between them: that is what we want, a kind of love that survives difficulties.

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L.D.M. That would be Peter being true to the name the Lord gave him -- "thou shalt be called Cephas" (John 1:42) -- going through.

J.T. Yes, capable of standing tests: what was there would come out according to itself, and has come out.

Rem. Thus the Lord placed on Peter a wonderful trust in connection with the sheep and lambs.

J.T. Because the Lord knew he loved Him; his conduct had denied it, but ultimately there was abundant evidence of it; indeed outward evidence of Peter's love was there already, as we have noted (John 21:17).

W.S.S. The apostle Paul said, "I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me" (Galatians 2:20), and Peter said, "whom, having not seen, ye love" (1 Peter 1:8).

J.T. Yes, that is the class we belong to.

W.S.S. The expression of love from our side seems to come out in Peter.

J.T. Yes. What comes out in him is the permanency of the thing -- "thou shalt be called Cephas" -- I believe the thought in that is permanency. Of course it is material for a building, and what is the good of anything in God's building that is not permanent? It requires what stands, and that is what Peter is. It became overshadowed, as we have said, but the Lord knew it was there, and very soon it was there manifestly. John uses much the word "manifest". In these last days when things are so cloudy, we do not want to be content with the assumption that love is in us, we want to show it. If I am hesitant about associating myself with the Lord's people here, my love is cloudy; we want people to see it, we must follow Christ, identifying ourselves with Him in His rejection.

Rem. So He says to Simon, "Seest thou this woman?" (Luke 7:44)

J.T. Exactly; the love was there, and so the Lord calls attention to its evidence. Many say, The Lord knows my heart. He does, and the more you recognise

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it the better; but, if you want to testify to Christ, you must have something that can be seen.

Ques. Does 2 Timothy suggest a state of things where affection may be clouded, and you have to fall back on the fact that "The Lord knoweth them that are his"? (chapter 2:19). They have not moved out into the clear light where the thing is manifest.

J.T. Yes. If we have their word only that they love Christ, it could not be accepted, for, as remaining in the general profession, our love for Him is questionable; we are to separate from evil.

Ques. Is the fact of our taking the Supper, if we do it rightly, as truly in the fellowship of His death, an evidence of love for Christ?

J.T. Yes. It is lovers of Christ who truly take it. I do not want to be among the uncounted, in that respect, but among the counted ones -- those who love Him. In Revelation 11 the worshippers are measured -- the court is left out.

Rem. The hundred and twenty (Acts 1) represent the kind that are counted.

J.T. Yes. It is "the crowd of names"; they are all distinguished.

S.R. All Israel and Judah loved David -- was that expressed in them all?

J.T. We come down there to this other feature of love. "It came to pass as they came, when David returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tambours, with joy, and with triangles. And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath smitten his thousands, and David his ten thousands". Now these women loved David, all Israel loved David, but then, you enquire of these women, What is affecting you? and you ask Jonathan, What is affecting you? You get different viewpoints. There are many with these women; it is quite right so far, but it is not what

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you might call a masculine position. Jonathan is affected by the person of David: he came definitely before him in his personal grace and dignity. The women were affected by David's exploits.

Rem. 'We love Thee for the glorious worth Which in Thyself we see'. (Hymn 341)

J.T. Quite so. You can always ask, Why do you love Christ? Well, He died for me. Very good. My sins have been forgiven through Him. "She loved much". That is very good, but it is not the love of Jonathan.

Rem. "What is thy beloved more than another beloved?" (Song of Songs 5:9).

J.T. Quite so; the Song of Solomon is very helpful on this line. In verse 12 of our chapter we read, "Saul was afraid of David, because Jehovah was with him, and had departed from Saul. And Saul removed him from him, and made him his captain over a thousand". Saul is forced to do something, so he made him a captain of a thousand; he would not have made him a captain at all if he could have avoided it -- it is a forced thing.

Ques. You mean the system would give him some sort of a place?

J.T. Exactly, they do. Certain so-called brethren have published a list of their distinguished leaders of the last century, including also the great servants God has used to recover the truth for us, whereas when these latter were bringing out the truth they refused them and it. That is the idea with Saul, it is a forced thing. In truth Saul hoped David would be slain by the Philistines. But he "made him his captain over a thousand; and he went out and came in before the people" -- he was not concerned about Saul now, it was before the people.

E.M. The moral beauty of David is seen here in his accepting any position that he is given.

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J.T. It is one of the finest touches, that as a man is put into a position in such circumstances, he stays there. You know that your worth to God will show itself, wherever it is -- and here it did show itself. So the passage says, "he went out and came in before the people. And David prospered in all his ways; and Jehovah was with him. And Saul saw that he prospered well, and he stood in awe of him. But all Israel and Judah loved David, for he went out and came in before them". The Lord Jesus, we are told in Acts 1:21, "came in and went out among us", that is, He comes in and goes out among His people, so that we might love Him. It is a question therefore as to what this lesson has for us, whether what we see in the movements of Christ amongst His people affords any attraction for us, and whether we love Him accordingly.

Ques. What would be involved in "he stood in awe of him"?

J.T. I think it is God limiting the power of the enemy, bringing out what was of Himself in David.

Rem. It is a great encouragement that that is going through.

J.T. It is. God is magnifying David. "David prospered in all his ways; and Jehovah was with him. And Saul saw that he prospered well, and he stood in awe of him". You want to be like that. If people put you in a small position; well, gold is gold and it will show itself.

Ques. Does this disclose what the man is, the way in which he goes out and comes in?

J.T. It is a question of the man here; not the number of the Philistines he slew -- it is the way he did things.

Ques. So we are tested by our movements amongst the brethren.

J.T. Yes; and, if you are consciously with God, you cannot be crushed, you cannot be put out; the gold is there and it will shine, in fact you will prosper

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all the more. No matter what people think or do, you will become exalted morally.

Rem. Nothing gratified the heart of Haman while Mordecai sat in the king's gate.

J.T. Just so. Saul here is somewhat like him.

Ques. What would you say about Michal?

J.T. She was a lover of David, but it was a very poor love; she ultimately "despised him in her heart" (2 Samuel 6:16).

Ques. Would the image in the bed go with that?

J.T. Yes; she was not like Hiram, who "always loved David" (1 Kings 5:1).

Ques. Is there a marked contrast between the hating eye of Saul and the admiring and loving eye of those who knew the worth of David?

J.T. Quite so. Saul's was not a dove's eye, it was an evil eye; but the people would look at David with affection; he is presented to us as a lovely and attractive person.

H.P.W. Does the Lord set peculiar store by the kind of love that values Him for what He is? Is it that kind of love that comes in for such opposition? And in a sense the Lord shows His appreciation of it as He suggests in the address to Philadelphia, "behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee" (Revelation 3:9).

J.T. Over against Ephesus, that left its first love, I suppose Philadelphia would mean quality such as John himself had, he was the disciple whom Jesus loved. Now the Lord is speaking about something He loved, the assembly at Philadelphia, and everybody is to know it. It is an objective thought that the Lord has in His mind; He would show His love for the assembly -- that they may "know that I have loved thee".

H.G. Did you link up the thought of the development of this character of love with the apprehension of Christ as Son?

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J.T. That is the centre of it all. "The Father loves the Son" (John 5:20), and "that the world may know that I love the Father" (John 14:31), and "the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Galatians 2:20). It is all in that setting: the relationship of a divine Person with a Father -- that is the spring of it all, we know love in that way.

H.G. That is interesting, for David is so often referred to, and speaks of himself, as a son of Jesse.

J.T. Yes; and, carrying the thought forward, David is debarred from building the house; it must be the Son of the Father who builds the house. In 2 Samuel 7 he proposes to build a house for Jehovah, and the message through Nathan tells him the builder must be the son. It is really a matter of love, that is, love reciprocated in the relation of Father and Son. It is a peculiarly calculated matter: there was to be One in a certain relationship with God, and in that relationship love is seen in undimmed lustre; it is He who is to build the place of love, the Son must build the house.

Rem. The building of the house must await the coming of the Son of the Father's love, and this apprehension of Him must be in our hearts for us to have part in the house.

J.T. That is it. The message to Mary in John 20:17 is very like the message through Nathan -- both have to do with sonship. "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" -- that involves sonship.

Ques. Is that love in relation to the Father and the Son seen when Solomon was born? He was the object of David's love, and then he speaks of him as "young and tender".

J.T. Yes, God sent by the hand of Nathan and called his name Jedidiah, because Jehovah loved him, it is a man in that relationship with God.

Ques. You have referred to Peter -- would the development lie in what he has to say, "Thou art ... the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16)?

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J.T. Just so. It is, however, remarkable that Peter did not formally preach the Son of God; Paul did from the outset. It is a very remarkable thing as showing the accuracy of levitical instinct in the apostles. The idea of sonship was to come out in Paul, so sonship is revealed in Paul to be announced by him as glad tidings amongst the nations (Galatians 1:16); and in that same epistle he says, "the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (chapter 2:20.).

Rem. You were saying on another occasion that Peter used the keys to open the door to let Paul come in, so to speak.

J.T. Yes, there is more in that than we perhaps think. It is not only love, but the place of love -- the Son, whom Paul preached, must have to do with it all.

Rem. So that when David got the message through Nathan he was not indignant, as he was when Uzzah was slain; he humbly went in and sat before the Lord. He was perfectly restful in the presence of God, his soul filled with the greatness of God, and conscious of his own greatness, too. For after all, the persons whom God loves must be morally great. All this would lead into the region of greatness. "Thou hast done all this greatness, to make thy servant know it" (2 Samuel 7:21) -- the greatness of God, and the greatness, too, of His people.

J.T. Yes; God is seeking to lead us all into that realm.

E.M. Did the root of the breakdown in Jonathan lie in the fact that he never really surrendered the greatness that was attached to him in relation to the house of Saul?

J.T. Yes, he never judged and relinquished it, for he speaks of Jehovah being with David, as He was with his father; Jehovah had not been with his father for a long time. Brethren like that, those who remain in human organisations, are usually marked by latitudinarianism.

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H.B. It would be very much like the man in John 5, who did not leave the system, which served him so poorly, to follow the Man who served him so well; but the man in John 9 did.

J.T. Exactly. The apostles began that way, and it is the secret of going on -- they left all and followed Him.

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THE PERSONNEL OF THE MINISTRY

Ephesians 3:1 - 21

J.T. Is there something you can pass on to us which you have been gathering in this epistle?

F.I. In reading the previous chapters we have had a sense of the wonderful position in which we stand as chosen of God before the foundation of the world, which would enable us to move forward in relation to the mind of God for us now. I do not think we have looked at it as future, but sought to be in the good of it here and now. I was wondering what the apostle had in mind in saying, "For this reason". Is it the thought of the saints being built together for a "habitation of God"?

J.T. Yes; what he has just been speaking of. He returns to what he had immediately in mind in chapter 4; this whole chapter from verse 2 being a parenthesis. He is calling attention to himself in this chapter. The Spirit of God in unfolding the truth would keep before us the persons used; their place in the general position is ornamental. The personnel of the ministry would be selected according to what was to be ministered. The intent is that they should enhance the ministry; so that "I Paul" is a very significant phrase. We have elsewhere "Paul the aged", which is another view of him. Here he is said to be "prisoner of the Christ Jesus for you nations". His position in Rome as a prisoner was not accidental; he was the prisoner of the Christ for the nations. He had been taken prisoner in Jerusalem and remained for some time a prisoner in Caesarea; now he was in Rome, not imprisoned for the Jews, but for the gentiles, and in the very centre of the gentile world. He can serve them better in Rome than in Jerusalem. The Christ, the One who was doing things for God, has him here. Whatever external occurrences

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had led up to this, the Lord had him there bound with a chain for us.

He particularly stresses the knowledge he had of the mystery. It is important that someone has the full thought of the truth; he alludes to it in the second parenthesis. It will have been observed by the brethren that almost the whole chapter is, as already said, a parenthesis, but at the end of verse 3 there is a subordinate parenthesis -- "according as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ". The Ephesians were to be reminded of the knowledge that the apostle had of the mystery that had been given to him; as he says, "the administration of the grace of God which has been given to me towards you, that by revelation the mystery has been made known to me". Then he had intelligence in it, which would be the result from his own side, to make the most of the revelation. It is intelligence in the mystery of the Christ.

F.I. That is, he had been formed intelligently by the revelation he had received -- not just committed to it.

J.T. That is what I understand to be the use of the preposition "in" -- "in the mystery". He has intelligence in it. In the Lord's first preaching according to Mark 1:14,15, he says, "But after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom of God, and saying ... repent and believe in the glad tidings". That is the whole idea. "My intelligence in the mystery", Paul says: it is his knowledge and intelligence. That is, the thing is worked out. As you believe in a thing, you take it on as a whole to be worked out. Paul had the thing revealed to him and he worked it out, as he says here. It is worked out in its varied features, which is important.

E.G. Is it not interesting that in Revelation 1:9 there is the same thought, "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker

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in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus".

J.T. Quite so: he was in prison, too. "I John" -- another person. The personnel of the ministry ought to be before us. The personnel of the kingdom, in the heavenly position, is developed in Matthew; first on the mount, then as they come down the Lord brings forward sonship, so that we might understand the sons' relationship up there -- what we are up there as the companions of Christ down here. He identifies Himself with us down here in Matthew 17. The ministers are in view here; first Paul himself, as having the revelation of the mystery, and then as having intelligence in it; and then the apostles and prophets, as he says, "the mystery ... which in other generations has not been made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit". They are God's best in the testimony. From the very outset the ministerial persons are kept before us, God furnishing them as He furnished the ministry, that the ministry should come to us in suitable vessels.

A.J.G. So Paul's position as a prisoner is because he was so much in keeping with the truth of the holy calling in Christ Jesus. Was it the opposition of the enemy to the truth set out livingly in a man?

J.T. I suppose the Lord never lost sight of what Paul was as in His mind at the outset -- "an elect vessel unto me" (Acts 9:15). Paul's journey to Jerusalem might be viewed as discreditable spiritually to him, but that has to be laid aside now: the Lord has reached His end, as if to say, I want him in Rome, even if he must go round that way. He went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and he went up by revelation, according to Acts 15; he was not very free there; it was not his own sphere in testimony, although it was needful that he should be there. He brought Titus up with him at that time

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as an example of divine work -- a divine product from among the gentiles -- as much as to say, This is the end God has reached. Titus would be the result of the gospel Paul preached. He is viewed afterwards in Paul's mind as a "fellow-workman", a man trusted to select elders. He brought him up to Jerusalem and they did not compel him to be circumcised; the work of God was too manifest for Jerusalem to exact its legal requirements -- Titus was too great for that. Then there were others there, distinguished men, conspicuous as pillars; they did not add anything to Paul. It was a test to his personality in the ministry. There were James, Cephas, and John, all "conspicuous as being pillars" (Galatians 2:9), but he does not discredit them, they were something to him; he says, they "gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship". This indicates that things were not normal at Jerusalem. It was not like this in Rome. Rome was the centre of the area to which God had called Paul in service, whatever had happened in the interim. From the time he left Ephesus, according to Acts 20, up to this time, the Lord had reached His end in His servant, and he was now just where the Lord wanted him. He says, "I, Paul, prisoner of the Christ" -- not of the Lord, but "of the Christ Jesus for you nations".

Rem. He was "less than the least of all saints".

J.T. You might wonder how he could say that. It would be hard for any of us to say it truthfully, but we may be sure it was absolutely the truth in his case; and it conveys his estimate of himself and the saints. The saints were so great in his eyes that he would clothe them with all the light of the mystery.

Rem. Is that why in nearly all his epistles he says "Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ"? He clothes the saints with divine thoughts, showing that they were sons.

J.T. That is right; you bring out the best robe and put it on a repentant sinner; he will thus become greater

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in your eyes than you are. All the interest of heaven is expended on him -- the very best clothes that there are -- the shoes and the ring -- everything put on him.

Ques. Is the character of the personnel a necessity to make way for the ministry?

J.T. I think so -- the adornment that is in the personnel.

Ques. It is striking that the Lord in speaking to the woman in John 4 says, "Woman, believe me", not 'I say unto you'. Does that agree with what you have in mind? He is presenting Himself personally to be believed.

J.T. Yes. Then He says, "If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink ..." "Who it is". That "who it is" must, relatively, apply to every minister. Christ was a divine Person -- unique -- but, making full allowance for that, it would refer to every person who ministers the truth; having something to say from God, he is a great person. So He would set you free in His presence. You would ask of Him, and it would be worth your while, because He would give you living water. But then, it is the greatness of the Person first, who He is!

E.S.H. In 1 Chronicles 2, where the sons of Jesse are recorded, David is mentioned as "David the seventh": but the Spirit of God very soon introduces him as "David", the thought of personality being set out in David. Is that a similar idea?

J.T. Just so. His personality is greatly stressed. The young man that spoke to Saul said, "Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse, the Bethlehemite" (he does not call him by name), "who is skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence" (that is, he had a great personality), "and Jehovah is with him" (1 Samuel 16:18). That is the account of the son of Jesse given to Saul, to begin with. It was a question of personality and attainment too. Attainment is involved

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in my understanding what is presented; revelation is not attainment, but understanding a thing is attainment.

E.S.H. I was thinking of David as he arrives at the house of God in this regard. It was his desire to build God a house, and having received the message sent to him through Nathan the prophet, he sits down in the presence of God as a worshipper.

J.T. Then he says, in the very presence of Jehovah's greatness, "for thou ... hast regarded me according to the estate of a man of high degree" (1 Chronicles 17:17).

F.I. Is your thought that spiritual understanding brings out the personnel for the habitation of God?

J.T. Yes, and for the ministry. The first minister, so called officially by Jehovah, is Abraham. Jehovah says to Abimelech of Abraham, "he is a prophet". Psalm 105:15 says, "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm". God would commend him. As much as to say, Abimelech, you do not realise who and what this man is: he is a prophet and he will pray for you. Personally, Abraham was "heir of the world" (Romans 4:13).

Now that is how the ministers are to be regarded -- those used of God to speak to men, and therefore when we come to Exodus it shines out in Moses and Aaron -- particularly in Moses, for there was no one like him: he is the prototype of ministers. The true Leader in ministry is of course Christ. Luke, who always has ornamentation in mind, says of Him that He stood up in the synagogue to read, and the Spirit of God dwells on how He did it; and everything that He did is marked so as to call attention to what God has in mind in the ministry. So that the minister has to ornament or enhance the ministry, to make it commendable. Paul was concerned "that the ministry be not blamed ... in everything commending ourselves as God's ministers" (2 Corinthians 6:3,4).

Rem. "Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone" (Ephesians 2:20).

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J.T. That is right -- the ornamentation of the building.

Ques. Is it the intention that "all the saints" with the Ephesians should understand? The apostle speaks of having "written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence".

J.T. Well, it is put down here for us, and the word ought to come home to each of us as to what we understand: the things we are talking about every week -- what do I understand? Philip says to the eunuch, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" (Acts 8:30).

F.I. The apostle so presented it that they were able to understand.

J.T. They were to understand his intelligence in the mystery; thus a leader in understanding would be before them. The apostle's two prayers in this epistle are to the end that the Ephesians might be intelligent in the great things of God.

F.I. Here it is what he had, what had been wrought in himself. We often speak of it as what belonged to him in the way of substance.

J.T. It is the Spirit of God calling attention to Paul; he is spoken of in testimony more than anyone in the New Testament, next to the Lord. He is brought forward constantly -- mostly by himself, but Peter, when about to die, speaks of "our beloved brother Paul", in some of whose letters were things "hard to be understood", but nevertheless, scripture (2 Peter 3:15,16). Thus understanding is specially needed for his ministry.

A.H. Peter says, "the untaught and ill-established wrest". The vessel is to be so in accord with the ministry as to be representative of what is presented. Peter and John (Acts 3), say, "Look on us". What extraordinary fruit was secured from their service at that time!

J.T. They were God's best in His service then. The man held them, as much as to say, They represent God's idea and I will hold on to it. We are, alas! very

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low and shallow on our side. What comes to us from God is not attainment. "This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears" (Luke 4:21) -- that is not attainment. It is from the divine side to put us under responsibility. It is what I have got out of it, as understanding it, that is attainment. "Until we all arrive ... at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", is the great end in view in this epistle.

Ques. In the early part of this chapter they were not exactly called upon to understand the revelation, but Paul's intelligence in it. Is that what you mean?

J.T. Yes, thus they would have leadership. You would like to listen to Paul. We read of one who sought out Paul very diligently and found him. The brethren mentioned in Acts 20:4 were representatives of his work. They were from different parts of the world, accompanying Paul "as far as Asia". They would love to sit alongside of Paul to read the Scriptures, or to be with him in prayer; thus they would see what a man he was with God. "Knowing of whom thou hast learned them ..." Timothy had that advantage. So the apostles were "eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word" (Luke 1:2). These are the kind of persons God uses.

E.S.H. You feel what a place Paul had for us gentiles, as you remarked -- drawing attention to himself as our apostle -- "for you nations".

J.T. That is what enters into this great parenthesis. Then he works up to God the Father -- "the Father ... of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named". That is the supreme thought he works up to. The chapter is full of God and His purpose worked out in the assembly. And the apostle's prayer at the end is, that we might be fully able to take things in, the Father's Spirit working in us, as it says, "in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man". It is a question of what is worked in us. The revelation is what is spoken of in chapter 1,

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that we should have "the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge" of God, but here it is power inwardly by the Father's Spirit -- a peculiar and striking title of the Spirit of God. The Father names the families in heaven and on earth, and the families specially involve personality.

Ques. Do you mean that the personal thought reaches up to God as Father in a supreme way?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, and it runs on in that way. Having said so much about the mystery, he now says, "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father". It is a very weighty matter with him; as if to say, I have knowledge of the mystery, and my burden is that you also should have it. There is one man that has "intelligence in the mystery of the Christ" and his burden is that the Ephesians should know this, and have intelligence of the mystery also. So he prays to the Father. The bowing of the knees is noticeable: I think it means there was great pressure, a great burden upon him, that the saints should come into the great things available to them. If we have meetings like this, week after week, well, one would be challenged -- What have I got out of them all? The reading of the Scriptures is not an attainment; it is of value, of course, also to be at a meeting is something, the Lord takes account of that, but the point in this chapter is attainment in the way of spiritual understanding of God and His great things.

Rem. Pursuing the thing is the matter for exercise. There should be something added to us on each occasion.

J.T. Quite. I believe the brethren, in their weekly meetings for the reading of the Scriptures, spend too long a time on each book. One may say, Why should we not go on verse by verse? But the more profitable way in collective readings is to get an outline of each chapter and of the whole of the book or epistle, so as to see the scope, and then work it out individually -- upon our knees.

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A.S.H. We have felt that particularly in reading the Old Testament scriptures; we are often too long over details.

J.T. Yes. I remember hearing in one place that they were five years on the Psalms. By the time they had reached the last they had forgotten the first! Why were five books written? They were to be read in that way. One of the books can thus be read and the others left for a while, so that some other section of the Bible might be considered. The first book of Psalms is a book by itself. So with the prophets: meetings might spend three years on a prophet. I do not believe that is wise. Scripture by word and example shows that in our education and pasturing there is regular movement and change of position.

G.C.S. The Ethiopian eunuch had got nearly to the end of Isaiah; you would not think he had commenced there.

J.T. He was "reading the prophet Isaiah", the section now known as chapter 53, but the actual "passage" which he read is stated, not the passage which he reached in reading. It seems that he was purposely reading that passage. The Lord also in Luke 4 read from the prophet Isaiah, and read very selectively. At the next occasion of the kind He might take up some other book.

Ques. Going back a little, would you suggest that for us to have spiritual intelligence in the mystery we should have an appreciation of the vessel through whom the ministry has come? Speaking generally, the apostle Paul is despised today.

J.T. That is what this chapter would suggest. Some regard Paul highly, thank God. I have no doubt he will be easily found in heaven; he is known there. So the apostle brings himself forward here in our chapter. We read that later all in Asia -- including Ephesus, of course -- turned away from Paul. This shows that Satan would rob the saints of the ministry

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by turning them away from the minister. The apostle is stamped on this chapter at the beginning; "I Paul", he says elsewhere.

Ques. Is it not striking that in the end of Revelation the Lord says, "I Jesus"?

J.T. Yes, and chapter 1 has "I John". Paul and John were not afraid of speaking about themselves, but then, who are they? Scripture would not in this sense speak of persons save for spiritual reasons. They possess personalities the Lord would have prominently before His people.

Ques. What is the great burden of this prayer? Is it that the saints might be formed in love?

J.T. It has specially in mind that we might have strength inwardly to apprehend fully the sphere of the divine purposes and all that enters into it. Referring to the ministry, Paul says, "that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus". It is for us to work that out; the prayer is to bring us into it. We need to take notice of that word joint. The tenor of this epistle is to draw us together, to make us practically part of each other. Joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers -- that is, each believer is actually taking part in the thing, but with all the saints. Even the apprehension of the great things in view is "with all the saints". Ephesians links us peculiarly with all saints and introduces us in power into the realm of divine purpose. The prayer has this in mind. It is to make us suitable for heaven -- the finishing touch so that we might go into heaven as suitable to it. We are raised up together -- elevated -- and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. Personality comes in here, for as in heaven we shall know according as we have been known.

So the prayer is to the Father, that we might take all this on. We were seeing yesterday the desire in the minister; he cannot accomplish it all, but it is kept

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alive in his heart, and it is more alive in his prayer than anywhere, because he is putting it forward to God the Father to make it good -- and how could it be made good otherwise?

Rem. Our intelligence would be seen now, as we work out this collective idea.

J.T. Joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers -- what collective formation is implied in that! As joint partakers, we learn together, we partake of the things of God together; love in us would have it so; in the heavenly man love does not wish isolation, but all the saints.

E.S.H. So that as coming together on any occasion this end would be in view; in the readings and other meetings, there would be the merging together in love -- all have this end in view under the Father's hand.

J.T. Yes. It is very wonderful as one sees it, perhaps; more than others, how the spirit of getting together increases; the brethren love to get together. I believe it is the Lord working out a condition for heaven, for our exit from this earth. We shall leave it suitably, not looking behind like Lot's wife: we look straight before us, and when we get there we are ready for the place; we shall know all the dignitaries, even as the disciples knew Moses and Elijah on the mount. We want to be ready for all that. Thus the saints become more and more to us, and the force of what the apostle says about himself here will be understood -- "less than the least of all saints". It is what they are in his mind, according to the mystery. "I bow my knees to the Father" suggests great exercise. Elijah on mount Carmel put his face between his knees; that is exercise, he had a burden upon his heart, and the exercise reached to heaven in that case, it was heard.

Ques. One of the things referred to in Hebrews 12 is "the spirits of just men made perfect" (verse 23). Is there any connection between that, and what you have been saying?

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J.T. Well, quite so; their importance as just men is in mind; there are not many now relatively. They are made perfect. It is the complete thought of God effected in them, involving resurrection.

G.C.S. Knowing the love of Christ as referred to here, would endear the saints to us more than ever, as being the objects of such love.

E.S.H. You were speaking yesterday of the footstool and the holy place and the most holy place -- the spiritual realm opening up. Would you say a little more about all that?

J.T. It was a comment on Psalm 132:7: "Let us go into his habitations, let us worship at his footstool". The idea of the plural, habitations, would give the complete thought of the divine habitation. We have it, of course, here in this very epistle -- we being built together for a habitation of God -- but the plural would give the whole thing in its grades. It was remarked that we might include the court as part of the divine abode; many do not go beyond that, but then they do go into the abode in some way. The sparrows are on Jehovah's altars. We begin at the footstool in that way -- at the beginning or lowest place.

The "holiest" is the greatest thought in mind. We begin in the court, then there is the second compartment called the holy place where certain things are -- the table, the shew-bread, the candlestick, the golden altar, but the holiest is where God Himself is. So that we are enjoined to "draw near". We may be in the habitations without drawing near -- content to remain in the court.

E.S.H. Are you linking the holiest with the spiritual realm?

J.T. Quite so. The tabernacle in Hebrews gives us a graded idea of things -- figurative representations. Paul was caught up to the third heaven, and that is the same idea of gradations, but it gives the complete idea -- three heavens. The holiest of all is a corresponding

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thought. Thus we are enjoined to draw near, as the way to it is open to us.

F.I. Why does it present the Spirit here as the Father's Spirit? In Romans 5 it is the Holy Spirit, and in Romans 8 the Spirit of sonship.

J.T. We must think of that title -- the Father's Spirit. The titles of the Spirit should be noticed. Ephesians 3:14 reads, "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father": it is that Person in the Deity. And there are families, it is "every family"; and the Father names them all. The apostle's desire is "that he (the Father) may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man". It seems to be His Spirit, that is, the Spirit of the Father -- that Person.

F.I. I wondered whether it was the height that we are brought into, what we might call the topstone of our relationship with God. The love of God is brought into the soul by the Spirit (Romans 5), but here we are strengthened in the inner man by the Father's Spirit; all that we might enter into the great things spoken of here.

J.T. Yes. It is not simply that we have the Father's Spirit, but that this kind of operation should be by the Father's Spirit -- "in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man". The operation is in the inner man. It is the heart in Romans 5; but "the inner man" is a remarkable expression; it is not dealing with externals, but with what is characteristically inward.

A.J.G. The Spirit viewed in that way, as the Father's Spirit, would impress us with what Christ is to the Father in relation to His purpose -- "that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts".

J.T. That is it. You begin with "the Christ", the One who does things for God, and it is by this operation of the Father in the inner man that Christ has His

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place -- He dwells in our hearts. "That the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts". That is, God makes room for Him by this remarkable operation. "According to the riches of his glory" -- the language is very rich and powerful. The inner man is the full mature thought -- not simply an organ, but my whole spiritual being viewed as the inner man -- in which there should be scope for the Christ. It is a magnificent thought, that He should dwell there by faith. We are thus "fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ". That we should be thus affected is one of the greatest results of divine power operative in us.

-- .B. Do you distinguish between being rooted and grounded in love, and knowing the love of Christ?

J.T. I do; the thought of the root is that there is access to suitable nourishment: there is growth through substance drawn through the roots. Grounding is that you are settled or established; you will not be carried away by every wind of doctrine -- there is stability. It is not simply fixedness through the truth: the sap is being drawn through the roots in love, and the grounding is in love; there is thus a living and stable condition. All is "in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God". One is steadied in the rooting and grounding, and able to exercise the mental powers that God has given to us by the Spirit, so as to apprehend the divine realm opened up to us with all the saints. Then the filling into all the fulness of God -- one is in infinitude, steadied in it, intelligent in it, and able to enjoy what God is as revealed in Christ. All is perfect -- no room for anxieties or regrets, for we are filled to all the fulness of God. And the love of Christ -- already

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proved in various experiences -- is now known, although it passes knowledge.

A.E.B.L. In chapter 1 the apostle speaks of "the surpassing greatness of his power towards us who believe, according to the working of the might of his strength".

J.T. In chapter 1 the power is "towards" us; in chapter 3 it is "the power which works in us". It is the Father's Spirit strengthening us in the "inner man".

E.G. Is strengthening in the inner man in view of the filling?

J.T. Whatever your capacity is, you are filled. There is no void or vacuum in the divine realm. We are all there in keeping with the fulness of God. The idea of fulness has a great place in Scripture.

A.J.G. How does this work out at the present time? "In order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints ..." Is it a matter of the outlook we have in our own minds and affections?

J.T. I think the idea of "all saints" is brought in to enhance what is in mind. Do we not learn more in a meeting like this than in our closets? All the saints, refers to our outlook. It is in accord with the teaching and spirit of the epistle -- love working in us involving all its objects. Enlargement to the inclusiveness of all marks Ephesians, hence "joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers". We really grasp things better in the assembly than elsewhere -- at least I find that. And that is what the Lord is stressing. Young people come into these meetings, and they are alert. It is remarkable in young children, with whom God is working, how they take on the very phrases that express spiritual things. Instead of being segregated, and put into the hands of one who knows but little about Ephesians, you give them the best -- and they drink into it, too.

A.H. Would you say a word as to the fulness of God?

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J.T. It is God shining out in revelation in and through Christ. It is a word used peculiarly in Colossians -- "for in him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell" -- without saying what the fulness is, as if the very term denotes the Deity; correspondingly, in Hebrews 1:3, we get "the greatness on high" Then in Colossians 2:9 -- to make it intelligible to us -- we have "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily". "Bodily" means that it is brought within our compass; that is what is in mind. I am to be filled into that. It is not God in His essential Being dwelling in light unapproachable, but as He came out -- all shining in Jesus, as Man.

A.H. Is it like the scripture that says, "The earth is the Lord's" -- that is one thing -- "and the fulness thereof"?

J.T. Quite so. There is the basic thought and the developed thought. In Genesis 1 we have what God wrought as a basis, and in Genesis 2 what God works out -- the garden, with Adam tilling it, the rivers, the animals named by him, ending with Eve -- all suggesting fulness.

F.I. We come into the knowledge of what is surpassing -- "the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge". It is in that way that we are filled into the fulness of God. As brought into this knowledge of the wonderful love of Christ, you are filled by Him.

J.T. Quite so. The fulness of God is finality, it steadies us. We are in infinitude, but we are not lost in it, we are intelligently in it. It is the marvellous result reached through the work of God in us. We cannot compass it, but we know where we are, we are intelligent in it, restful in it, not strangers, but as known and loved there.

F.I. That work of God is only seen and known by us as in Christ.

J.T. Then the next thing is the display of the glory of God in the assembly -- "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". That is what He has.

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THE ANCIENT MOUNTAINS

Deuteronomy 33:15; Genesis 8:4 - 12; Genesis 22:14; Luke 9:27 - 31, 34 - 36 (to "found alone")

Brethren taught of God, as through grace most of us are, and lovers of Christ, will feel at home in being directed to the person of Joseph, typical as he is in such a touching manner of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Spirit of God, both in Jacob and Moses, seems Himself to be stimulated as He touches the person of Joseph, of him who, it is said, was separated from his brethren. His brethren did not miss him, but he missed them; and so it is that if there is one here separated by his own will from Christ, He misses you, although you may not miss Him. His voice is to be heard at the present time seeking His brethren. Whatever the character of spiritual ministry, it always conveys the voice of Christ, and the suggestion of Joseph brings out the thought of the brethren, that Christ was separated from them, that is, His brethren among the Jews. He is compensated, but He feels the separation.

Well now, the verse I read is brief, and it refers to one character of the blessing of Joseph, that is, "the best things of the ancient mountains", and "the precious things of the everlasting hills". His blessing, I need not say, is not confined to himself, it is shared with his own, as it says here, "the myriads of Ephraim" and "the thousands of Manasseh". We share with Christ, and He shares with us, nor would one who loves Him care to share anything save as it is shared with Him. He appeals to one who loved Him saying, "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me" (John 13:8). A lover of Christ cannot bear that, he wishes to share with Christ, and the Lord shares wonderful things with us: "the glory", He says to His Father, "which thou hast given me I have given them" (John 17:22). Think of that! How great are the things He shares with us! And so, in what I

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have to say, I have the saints more in mind than Christ in this sense: that is, how we come into these blessings, whether we have come into them, and if not, why not? And then, if possible, to show how we come into them.

I have selected Genesis as obviously the section of Scripture in which we should rightly look for the ancient mountains. Ararat is the first one mentioned, indeed, the idea of mountains only comes in with this section, and Ararat is the first specific mountain mentioned -- it is a range, as is usual. Sinai was the mount of God; it was a range, too. So here we have, as you will observe, "the mountains of Ararat", and from the verse in Deuteronomy we are entitled, and I believe obligated by the Spirit, to dwell on the facts recorded as to these mountains. The first point to be noted is that the ark rested there. Many believers know little or nothing about rest; but the idea has a great place in Scripture, far more than could be noted now in our short time.

What is in view here is Christ in type, reaching, through death, a point of rest. That is one of the "best" things that one can mention, one of the chief themes of the gospel, that Christ as Man, having come in here to a world of death, has gone through death and reached a resting-place -- solid ground for faith. We are told by Peter that "God ... raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God" (1 Peter 1:21). As Man, He is on solid ground, making a way for us. It is one of the chief themes of the gospel; there could be no gospel without it; everyone of us doubtless knows that in his own soul, but it is well to be reminded of it. "The ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat" -- a great point reached in this great type.

But then, there is much more in the way of adjustment, and it is in this adjustment that perhaps help is needed, for, after all, the top of Ararat in itself would not do for the propagation of a new race; we need the

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land, the fruitful land, below. And so we find forty days mentioned -- a well-known period of experience; and then it says, "Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made. And he sent out the raven, which went forth going to and fro, until the waters were dried from the earth". Now this is an experience: the Spirit of God would never record this did it not have some antitype in the believer's history; for that, we may be sure, is what it is. In the Old Testament there is one glory after another appearing, either of Christ or of the work of the Spirit in our souls. "My Father worketh hitherto", said the Lord (John 5:17); and the Scriptures abound with the glory shining out through the work of God, whether in the death and resurrection of Christ, as I have been saying, or in the saints -- whether it is a question of what is above or what is below. Then we must remember our state is in mind; the significance of the ark and its resting-place is one thing, and the discovery as to whether the waters are dried up is another, for we cannot subsist upon the tops of mountains. You will understand me -- I mean that from the point of view of the propagation of a race, another world, we must have the land.

So after forty days, which has its own meaning, Noah opened the window of the ark and sent out a raven, a carnivorous bird. As a believer apprehends Christ above and gets peace in a sense, this state below, which the raven here points to, is often very uncertain. The dove is another thought -- delightful in contrast: but, as I hope to show, the raven and the dove go together in the believer's experience. It is not that the raven in itself is to be abominated, it fits here and enters into the divine work in the believer; it goes to and fro, it is restless, but it does not return to Noah, it can get along without him and without the ark. In a literal sense, what did it matter if the raven perished? It is the typical meaning we have to see, and that God would nourish us with. The raven continued "going

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to and fro" until the waters were dried up, we are told: whether Noah found him alive or not afterwards, we do not know -- the fact is just given by the Spirit of God that he does continue. He can live on other things, such as, alas, were available in the dead creatures that were there as a result of the flood. The raven, however, is not to be abominated, for God feeds him, and he can be turned into a servant of God, too; he can feed us, as he did Elijah. But he is not a dove, there is no affection suggested, and so no link between him and Noah; in truth, it refers to the fleshly condition that often ensues when light comes into a man's soul, light as to Christ risen and glorified. There is no knowledge of the state in which we are, and this raven condition creates uncertainty and often sorrowful eating of food unlawful. Young people may go after this unlawful food -- terrible stuff that is dealt out in books and novels and magazines -- and the result is, the work of God does not progress. Sorrowful though the experience is, dishonouring even to God, there is nevertheless education in it; so that the dove is also sent out, referring to the concurrent work of the Spirit of God in our souls.

I cannot dwell at length on this remarkable picture, but it is one of the best things of the ancient mountains. Young people need to note it, to read it carefully, because it contemplates an end reached, not in the raven, but in the dove; that is the fruit of the Spirit, and once that is reached, solid rock has been reached in the soul of the believer -- that is, he no longer sows to the flesh, but to the Spirit: "the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace". The state of the believer thus corresponds with the resting of the ark on the top of the mountains: the latter is Romans 4:25, the former Romans 8:6. And now we have means for the propagation of a new order of things in the soul of one man or woman, or in any number -- in the whole race of men in result in the

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millennium. So the dove is sent out and finds no rest for the sole of its foot, that is, the condition is not settled.

The Spirit strives with young believers like that -- ready to be there; but the dove finds no rest for the sole of her foot and returns, not to the ark simply, but to Noah, for there is a personal link with him: "he put forth his hand, and took her, and brought her to him into the ark". There is a beautiful personal touch and link there to be understood by the believer. Then he sent her out again; there are seven days, and other seven days, and so on. Let us look into our histories, dear brethren: this refers to them, these spiritual periods we have to go through in order to reach solid rock spiritually; no longer this undulating condition, misery today and joy tomorrow, and so on; but a steady peace -- "The mind of the Spirit is life and peace" -- not simply peace with God, as in Romans 5, but life and peace, as in Romans 8. If you look through Romans 8 you will be impressed, if you have not already been, with the allusions to the Spirit of God, the varied functions and services performed by Him in the believer's soul, so that we are in conscious relationship with God as children and as sons. We are so free of this uncertainty inwardly that the Spirit of God can actually witness to our spirits that we are children of God -- a most comforting and blessed thought: the witness of the Spirit within.

So we read that Noah "waited yet other seven days, and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark. And the dove came to him at eventide; and behold, in her beak was an olive-leaf plucked off". Now, if I apply this as I have been applying it, it is the fruit of the Spirit in the christian; that is, it is an olive-leaf plucked off, not a floating one. An undelivered christian might come to this room and hear something good and rejoice in it, and a little while after lose the joy he had. Now that means it has not grown in himself, it was the outcome

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of what another said, although good so far; but this leaf was plucked off, it was growing: that is to say, the flood had not destroyed life, at least in the olive, a type of the Spirit. The epistle to the Romans shows that the incoming of death in the soul is educational and does not destroy what is of God -- presently you get a real growth. There are nine branches spoken of in Galatians 5:22,23; this is just a leaf, but with evidence that it was connected with a tree; it was not withered up, it was growing when the dove plucked it off; it is fruit for God, so to speak.

Then we find that "Noah knew that the waters had become low on the earth", that is how we know where the soul is. This is a great matter, this inward thing; we arrive at solid ground and we know where we are, and we have reached continuous joy -- a very blessed state to reach. So that the exhortation comes: "Rejoice evermore" -- that is the word! Why should it be otherwise? "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, ..." we are told; love and joy are the fruits first mentioned. Now when that point is reached there is no more returning of the dove; she has a wide field now to go on with, the great field of God's work in man, for in truth, "that world, and the resurrection" (Luke 20:35) which the Lord speaks of is begun already. It begins in the saints, and so is applicable to every one of us as this fruit is reached, the actual fruit of the Spirit; then the Holy Spirit is at liberty to move on; the dove does not return any more to Noah. What a field opens up as the waters are dried up! Now death is understood to have been annulled -- Christ "has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings" (2 Timothy 1:10). So that one now has entered on a world of life, death is no longer in the way. Viewed as typical, what we have here is a new world opened up for the believer, involving the Spirit operating in him. A great domain opens up through the death and resurrection of Christ and the solid work of the Spirit in the believer, so that

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God proceeds with what He has in mind. Much more could be said of what follows in the chapter, but I go on now to chapter 22.

We have spoken of the resurrection of Christ in the ark as a type in chapter 8, but we have it in a fuller way here; it is now in a person, that is, Isaac. There is not much time to dwell on these precious things, but I have selected them as the chief things of the ancient mountains; but there are other things. The margin, I believe, reads as to this word 'chief', 'head'; it is leading, outstanding things. The next thing is Christ in heavenly glory, a heavenly Christ in view of a heavenly testimony now; not simply a universal one, as in Noah. Noah is head of the world as coming through death, inaugurating a new order of things, but in Isaac it is a heavenly order of things that is in mind. It is in connection with him that we first get speaking from heaven in Scripture. There is much to speak about now up there. The angel of Jehovah called from the heavens twice: the reference is to Isaac, that is, Christ as the heavenly Man. This chapter is an advance on what I have been speaking of. I read verse 14 because it contemplates provision on a mountain: "On the mount of Jehovah will be provided". That is a great principle, introduced here and continued down to the present time; indeed, it is said here "to this day". It is a principle introduced which continues, in fact it has a greater place in Exodus than here -- not the same mountain, of course, but the same principle, for the mount of Jehovah was that to which Israel made its way, and before which it encamped. Chapter 19:2 says, "Israel encamped there before the mountain", as if they had come to the great resources of God, and they did, too: it is called the "mountain of Jehovah". So this is a principle that we may have recourse to, especially in critical times, and in assembly history the word 'crisis' is written in large letters. When we reach a point requiring the keenest discernment and judgment, and

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with the possibility of conflict and loss of brethren, nothing is more important than to get the idea of the mountain and that there are resources; we are never driven to the wall. In the history of the assembly normally, the saints are never driven to the wall, however bad conditions may be in any given place. "On the mount of Jehovah will be provided", is a great abiding thought for all time.

What is particularly now the occasion of these crises is heavenly truth, the truth of Christ in heaven, and that the assembly is heavenly: that the service of God is heavenly and that the saints themselves are heavenly, and this is not merely on the first day of the week, but every day of the week -- for it is on the corners of the garments the tassel is to be (Numbers 15). When we turn from the first day to the second day, which may mean a test, there is means to carry us through so that we maintain the heavenly colour. Now that is the point, so that we have here the word to Abraham out of heaven the second time: it is out of heaven, it is a heavenly matter. Even Isaac has to go into death: Christ typically. This scripture shows us that, not only the raven character in ourselves has to go, as in Romans 7 and 8, but that Christ must die, as in His condition in flesh and blood here on earth. That condition was not what the counsels of God required; for that He must have Christ in another condition. Not, of course, that it was obligatory on Christ to die; no one could take His life from Him, He was personally immune from death; but, taking on a character of life which He intended to lay down, and which the will of God required should be laid down sacrificially, He "died for our sins according to the scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3). The order of the life of Jesus here on earth was of a character of its own, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners" (Hebrews 7:26). Still, it was to be laid down, He could die, He could lay it down, and He did lay it down -- the glory of God in the accomplishment of

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redemption required it. As seen in the type (Exodus 21), He could go out free, but love led Him to die; and now He is in the glorious condition of manhood answering to the eternal counsels of God.

It will be noticed that although much is made in this narrative about Abraham and his beloved son, there is nothing said of Isaac returning to Beer-sheba with Abraham. What holy converse Abraham and Isaac had. But as to the return journey, there is not a word about Isaac, only about Abraham and his young men. That is to say, Isaac is in heaven, as it were, it is a heavenly position; and hence the next chapter tells us Sarah dies; but before we are told of Sarah's death we are told of Rebekah, the heavenly bride. These wonderful thoughts of God, dear brethren, we must get into our souls; that is what the Scriptures and spiritual ministry are for, to get the thoughts of God into our souls. So the thought of the heavenly bride is here, but where is the Bridegroom? He is above, He belongs to heaven. You can understand that the bride involves Christ in heaven and the Holy Spirit down here, so that we have Rebekah, we have the assembly. It is a heavenly product, kindred to Christ, of His own family. "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die it bringeth forth much fruit" (John 12:24) -- this specially marks the assembly. We have the heavenly family of Rebekah, as related to that of Isaac, noted at the end of this chapter; and then the death of Sarah, and then Rebekah brought to Isaac. It is all so rich and full, dear brethren, that it certainly ought to have an entrance into our souls. Besides, it alludes to ourselves -- I mean all the saints in this dispensation; that is what is in mind in Rebekah. As connected with "the mount of Jehovah" as a place of provision, what I have been calling your attention to in Genesis 22 is surely one of the chief things of the ancient mountains.

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Now I go on to the New Testament, because it looks on to what is coming -- the lasting hills. I suppose mount Zion might be taken to enlarge the subject as in the New Testament carried down from the Old. We have come to it, we have come to mount Zion, we are told, so that we should understand it and see how it represents the sovereign thoughts of God as to place, "Here will I dwell", God says, "for I have desired it" (Psalm 132:14). It is a place of love; He "loves the gates of Zion", too, "more than all the dwellings of Jacob" (Psalm 87:2), that is to say, the saints viewed in that light in the assembly. Jesus came to where the saints, the disciples, were; as we love the place where He is, so He loves the very spot where His loved ones are. As God regards Zion and His people brought to it, what a holy scene it is, at least in type! Three times every year the males of Israel wended their way to Jerusalem where Jehovah had placed His name, where He would come in among His people. "There I will come to you", He says, "there I will bless you". What seasons they were! What corresponds to them today in the way of holy convocations of the saints are most pleasing to God -- enjoyable and profitable to the saints also, so that one might speak of Zion as perhaps carrying the thought of the lasting hills.

I refer to the mount of transfiguration as giving a more concrete idea of the precious things of the lasting hills. We do well to notice these words: the vocabulary used in Deuteronomy 33 and in Genesis 49 is very rich. It is the blessed Spirit of God, through chosen vessels, speaking about the saints. There is nothing one feels so poor in as ability to speak about the saints, to speak rightly about the saints. We speak about God and Christ, you might say, freely; the brethren are able to do that; but then, what about being able to look at the saints rightly and to speak rightly about them? That is what we see in Moses, the man of God in this chapter. In Genesis 49:2 Jacob calls himself, "Israel

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your father", a man who can bless the tribes in spite of the terrible incongruities he noticed in them, for he lays bare the very worst things in the history of the tribes; yet they are all blessed, every tribe has its blessing and each gets it. These two chapters are of extreme importance as to our way of thinking of the saints and speaking of them. Peter speaks of precious things, "precious" is one of his choice words. In his second epistle he tells us something of the precious things of the lasting hills. "For we have not made known to you", he says, "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eye-witnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain" (2 Peter 1:16 - 18). He, and James, and John were eye-witnesses of the precious things of the lasting hills. Think of what they heard! Could anything be more precious than that wonderful testimony -- what transpired on that mount, witnessed by these three chosen men who were with Jesus on that great and holy occasion?

Did time admit, one would like to elaborate on the four accounts we have: Matthew gives one, Mark gives another, Peter gives another, and Luke gives another. Peter interweaves this precious fruit of the lasting hills into his second pastoral letter, that we should have it in our hearts. Matthew 16:28 is "the Son of man coming in his kingdom", it is a personal matter, it is a question of the royal pomp and glory of the Son of man as He comes. Surely that is an appeal to our hearts! We shall see that, and be with Him too, in that glorious display. Mark is "the kingdom of God come in power". We see in pageantry the royal family in their glory; then we may see a great display of the army and navy -- that is the kingdom in power.

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Then Luke says simply, "The kingdom of God". The Lord says, "there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God". That is, it is a question of what is moral, what shines out in the meekness and gentleness of Christ, in Himself and in His people, in the ministers and in the saints as reflecting what is above. So we find a praying Man in Luke -- in a moral sense, what a consideration! Each of us can be that. I can be a praying man, and that is what Luke presents. He presents Christ many times as praying, and on the mount particularly. He went up to pray, "and as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different", that is to say, He was a different Man, not that He could be anything but Himself, but it is Pattern we get here, dear brethren, and how much we need to be changed if we are to be reflecting the kingdom of God! If I am a praying man, how different from ordinary men I shall be! -- before starting out in the morning to the office, having the word of God and prayer in my house -- very important! "As he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent". That is moral glory, as applying to the kingdom of God, for the kingdom of God is what is down here in testimony. We are told expressly that it "is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17). It is the testimony of God here below that is intended, as the Lord Himself said, "the kingdom of God is in the midst of you" (Luke 17:21); that is, it is among men. Well, how is it in the midst of men now save as the saints are it? Christ is in heaven; the Holy Spirit being here, Christ is here kingdom-wise, and Luke presents that side; and I apprehend it is one of the most precious things of the lasting hills that the saints are here representative of God in His kingdom.

So it is said there are two men talking with the Lord; the other evangelists say, "Moses" and "Elias", to occupy

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us with the persons expressly, but Luke makes the point that they are men, and that is the idea. However great I may be in ministry or ancestry or wealth, it is a question of my being a man according to Christ. "Quit yourselves like men" (1 Corinthians 16:13) -- men in this way, men that can pray, men that can be approached, men that are not too haughty in their offices to be approached by their employees, and the like. Two men were speaking with Him. A man is approachable if he is like Christ; so the kingdom of God is the spirit in which we are here like Jesus. I am reflecting Him, that Man praying up there; and so it was with Moses and Elias. They are talking with Jesus and about His death at Jerusalem, not about things in heaven, but about things down here. It is important we should tell people that Jesus died and that He died at Jerusalem. The word is "exodus", it is the way He went out of this world, through a gibbet: it was ignominious. Moses would understand, he had to do with the sacrifices, all pointing to this one great event, which was now the theme on this mount. So, dear brethren, it should in one way or another be the theme of our conversation whatever time of the day or week it is; it is a question of that, of speaking about the departure of Christ from this world. He was a martyr, of course, but He died for us. "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5). And these two men were talking about that. The voice from heaven out of the cloud announced, "This is my beloved Son: hear him". One point in Luke is to hear this One, to hear Jesus. Otherwise we shall not reflect the kingdom of God, which is a moral thought, as I said, and one has to be born again even to see it; born of water and of the Spirit to enter into it. So it is a moral question and has to be understood, but it is one of the most precious things of the lasting hills.

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KNOWN OF GOD

1 Corinthians 8:3; Genesis 18:19; Exodus 33:17; Exodus 4:14

It is in mind to speak about God's knowledge of us, particularly His knowledge in an objective way; that is, His knowledge of us because of what we are. Being God, He knows all, but the verse I began with teaches us that His knowledge of us, in the sense of our being distinguished by it, that is, distinguished by God knowing us, is dependent on our love for Him. In this sense, only a certain class obviously are known, all others are as if they did not exist. The Lord says, for instance, of certain who told Him they had eaten and drunk in His presence, "I do not know you whence ye are" (Luke 13:27). How solemn that is, especially as applied to the sphere of public profession!

In one sense, nothing is unknown to the Lord, as Peter says, "Lord, thou knowest all things" (John 21:17). He alludes to a kind of knowledge different from what we call objective knowledge. What we are speaking of now is objective knowledge, that is the knowledge derived from what is observable; and God puts Himself in the position of intimating to us that He knows us on that principle. In the very passage in Genesis 18 that I read, He says of Sodom that He heard the cry of it, but that He was going down to see; that is, God places Himself in this position. He would assure us that His judgment is based on manifest facts. Thus He says by the Spirit through Paul that "if any one love God, he is known of him". God knows him; he has come within the range of divine observation. We often say of such and such a one, he was quite unknown till lately. How many there are in the public eye now who were quite unknown till lately! They have become known through what has come out in them.

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So that we are known as in the divine radius, we are spoken of in heaven. Heaven has its own way of taking account of things here below, and certainly it is not, as we often are, as interested in many things that are happening. The things recorded in the newspapers are not much up there. Heaven is looking out for other things, that is, the work of God and the effect of it in His people. Heaven is looking out for that; the first movement of it is specially interesting to heaven: that is, repentance towards God. Never has there been such an occurrence without heaven's notice, and that is really the beginning of what I am speaking of. Nor does the person while he is down here cease to be what he was at the beginning; he never ceases to be a repenting sinner. Even in that matter heaven is pleased, but in other things, too; for a concurrent element that is produced through the work of God is love. The Lord took notice of a repenting sinner, and one has to go to Luke to get it in its fulness. He took notice of a repenting sinner and He says, "she loved much" (Luke 7:47). She loved much because she was forgiven much, and what one is forgiven in that way is what one has repented of. If a burden of sin comes up in my conscience and I know it is forgiven, there is joy; I am encouraged to repent again. Our inner chambers are so intricate and locked up at times we hardly know what we repent of, but God searches them out by His word. It is repentance at the roots that is needed; as we allow Him, God searches us out and makes all plain, and as we judge what is exposed we are known in heaven as repenting sinners.

Concurrent with that is love, love of that kind, one loves much because he is forgiven much. That is the beginning of things with us, making us practical believers and practical lovers and worshippers of God. We become known in heaven. Heaven is much more active than we are generally aware of; we have very little thought of the activity of heaven in regard to

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what is current down here: not the works of man, but the works of God. Heaven looks not at a man as men do, as the Lord said of the man born blind; it was not that he had sinned, nor his parents, "but that the works of God should be manifested in him" (John 9:3); and that word 'manifested' has to do with heaven as well as with those down here. God is pleased with His own work as it is manifest. And there are beings in heaven that learn objectively: angels in heaven look at us in that way, seeing the works of God manifested in us. You see what we are here below in the eyes of heaven. We become the objects of heaven peculiarly as the works of God are manifested in us.

"Manifested" is a word that John makes much of, because he is dealing with conditions that becloud the work of God; whereas it is to be manifested, everybody is to see it. Peter in that very gospel in answering the Lord's inquiry as to whether he loved Him, used for his last word for 'know' this very word I am speaking of. It is as if he said, You can see, Lord, that I love you; there are evidences of it. The last 'know' he makes use of refers to what is observable. It is characteristic of these days of cloudiness that there should be reality, and that it should be manifested, not merely assumed. That indicates what I have in mind, but particularly as to love for God.

Now John in his epistle treats of these things, particularly of love, and in the most practical way. He says, "If any one say, I love God, and hate his brother, he is a liar" (1 John 4:20). What strong language he uses! The disciple that Jesus loved, and he who was in His bosom, uses these strong words. If you say you love God and do not love your brother, you are a liar; and if you do not love your brother whom you have seen, how can you love God whom you have not seen? It is a question of God and the works of God; God is to be seen in a true subject of His work. Man was made in His likeness, and there is true likeness to God now

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in those in whom His works are manifest. Even in speaking to the Athenians, Paul pointed out that even according to their own poets, man is God's offspring (Acts 17:28). So he says, You should have some idea of God, if that is so; that which is divine is not like gold or silver or stone. It is not that God ceases to be a Being, "whom no man hath seen, nor is able to see", but "if we love one another, God abides in us" (1 John 4:12). In the brethren, viewed as they are -- being as Christ is (1 John 4:17), there is a representation of God. If I do not love them, how can I love God? John helps us peculiarly as to this feature of the truth; he makes us practical christians, particularly in regard to love. In truth, young believers begin to learn things from what they see in old believers. God has a representation here, and what is the representation for, save that it is to be seen, and that it should affect us? Every christian should have the thought in his heart that he should affect others as to God.

Now here in our chapter the apostle speaks about knowledge, both objective and subjective, as we speak of it. "We all have knowledge" (1 Corinthians 8:1). The leaders at Corinth could tell you many things on the line of knowledge, but such knowledge as would pass away. The greatest of scientists, if he is not a christian, is not known: he is known in the scientific world, of course, but he is not known in the way I am speaking of it, although his most menial servant may be known in heaven. So the apostle goes on to say, "If any man love God, the same is known of him". This is written parenthetically in the New Translation, as you will observe. The apostle is bringing this thought in, in what he is about to say. He is about to speak of God and of those weak in the faith, that these should not be stumbled. The misuse of knowledge may constitute one a fall-trap to his brother. Love would save us from this. Thus the apostle brings it in: "if any one love God, he is known of him". We all want to be in the

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'Who is who book' of heaven: such a book in the world is for persons who are "known", as men speak, who have a universal reputation. Of course this is sought after; it is natural to men to desire to be distinguished: but God would say, That is outside the range of the circle that I know, the circle of those who love Me. That is the circle each of us, I am sure, desires to be in; those that are known of God. The apostle Paul spoke about certain ones who were "of note among the apostles" (Romans 16:7). Not simply known, but of note; there was something that gave them a special place in the minds of the apostles. And Paul adds, "who were also in Christ before me". This fact had its value in Paul's mind, and it had also in the mind of heaven.

I wanted to enlarge a bit on these three scriptures in the Old Testament. They furnish us with examples of persons that were known of God. Jehovah had been entertained by Abraham in remarkable circumstances, in Genesis 18. Think of that! The noblemen of this country often entertain royalty; that is a great distinction for them, but here is a man, who is father of us all, as believers, a characteristic believer, who knows how to entertain God. Think of the dignity attaching to a genuine believer! God waited on him, too. Think of Jehovah and the two Persons that were with Him waiting there for Abraham to provide the means of refreshment for them! "So do as thou hast said" (verse 5). There are no terms imposed; the proposal of the man of faith is accepted unqualifiedly. The persons to be entertained are glorious, One of them Jehovah, all possibly alluding to the Trinity, in type at least. They wait under a tree for the man of faith to provide the means of refreshment for them. Think of that, as showing how God regards His lovers! The world was going on its way, represented in Sodom, with all the devices of sin and its entertainments, corresponding to modern cities, which are, spiritually, Sodom and

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Egypt. The world is going on its way, but look at this picture at Mamre! The man of faith entertaining, and God, Jehovah, waiting for him! What distinction, what honour bestowed on a lover of God!

The entertainment being over, "the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom" -- in coming to Abraham they were really on their way thither. That is, as on His way to execute judgment on the world, God came to Abraham; God's movements are in relation to the saints, in relation to those who have faith. What is going on in the world is important in its way, but God is going on His way, and we may go with Him. Abraham went with Jehovah, and then it is that Jehovah says of him: "I know him". "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do?" Would He look into Sodom? Would He recognise the mayor and councillors of Sodom? Lot was there, and the angels went to Sodom, entering, on his invitation, into Lot's house, but his deliverance out of Sodom was in view of this; to honour him was not the purpose of the visit.

But of Abraham God says, "I know him": He knew him according to the principle of which I have been speaking, for he loved God. "For", says Jehovah, "he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah". Keeping the way of Jehovah is proof that we love Him. The Lord says, "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me" (John 14:21). Thus Abraham was known of God. His knowledge of him is connected with Abraham's house -- he would command it. We learn from this that the ordering of our houses in a godly way commends us to God. Family conditions are being destroyed today; hence the importance of brethren holding to the principles intended to govern our houses. Look at poor Lot over against his uncle, what could be said of his house? When he spoke to his sons-in-law about leaving Sodom, he was in their eyes as one who jested. He had no moral power. It is the

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power that develops in a man who is in right relations with God that enables him to command his house. This is one of the most important things that can be brought before us; to command our houses after us, not only for the present time, that they should do justice and judgment in the earth. And it is "in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him".

Then there is Moses. God says to him, "I know thee by name". Moses represents what is ministerial -- those qualified to minister to the people of God; a very important side. A few verses earlier Moses says to Jehovah, "thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people; but thou dost not let me know whom thou wilt send with me; and thou hast said, I know thee by name". How beautiful, in a servant, is such liberty with God! No one can serve effectively unless he has liberty with God. It is a question of going in to Him: to be with Him, if I am to come out in service for Him. We are told in Numbers 7:89 that Moses went in to speak with God, but God spoke to him; He spoke to him from off the mercy-seat which was between the cherubim. Thus it was inaugurated that divine communications should come out in authority and mercy -- from between the cherubim. These are the communications that have weight; and the minister takes them on and he has weight. It is not simply the words, but what is behind the words. God spoke to Moses in authority and Moses had liberty to speak to God; and Moses came out, representing God authoritatively. Ministry always carries authority with it if it is coming out in that way.

Now Moses in effect says to God: You have told me to take the people up, but You have not told me who is to go with me; and he reminded Jehovah that He had called him by name. God loves to be reminded of things in this way by His servants: He loves to be reminded of what He said or promised. Moses says to Him, "thou hast said, I know thee by name" (verse 12). How

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precious the thought of that is, to be known by name! You will remember how his name was called out in the wilderness: "Moses, Moses!" It was at the burning bush. The bush burned and it was not consumed; and Moses says, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt (Exodus 3:3). There was a man reasoning inwardly as to what is presented to him objectively. That man is to get communications from God. When Jehovah saw that he turned aside, He said, "Moses, Moses!" There was a divine appearing and a corresponding communication which would give character to the great minister and his ministry. When Miriam and Aaron envied him, Jehovah says, "Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him ... and the form of Jehovah doth he behold" (Numbers 12:7,8). That shows what I am speaking about: the relations that existed between Jehovah and His servant.

In our chapter, Moses is speaking in liberty to Jehovah. It is a matter of prayer here: Moses pleads that God has not told him who was to go with him. He would not attempt to bring the people up himself. God says, I will go with you Myself "My presence shall go with thee" (Exodus 33:14). And God said further, "I will do this thing also that thou hast said; for thou hast found grace in mine eyes, and I know thee by name". What a word is this as we seek to serve the Lord! The need is great for service of every kind, but what is needed underneath all service is happy, settled relations with God; to be able to speak to God and remind Him of things, of earlier experiences with Him. So, in the verse I read, He answers formally what Moses had said: It is true, I do know you by name, and you have found grace in My sight.

Moses is the second exemplification of what I had in mind, and a very important one, especially for young men who serve the Lord: to be with God and receive from Him directly. One important thought in ministry

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is to go in to God, and let Him speak to you; He speaks from off the mercy-seat between the cherubim, and as you get communications there you go forth in representation of God in moral power. You are conscious of having something from Him.

Now I come to Aaron; I read about him because the thought I have in mind enters into this passage. Jehovah mentions Aaron here: it is the first mention of him we have. He was at this time about eighty-three years of age, as we have often remarked; so that there had been much opportunity for God to observe things in him in the sense of which I am speaking. He says to Moses about Aaron, Is he not your brother? "Aaron the Levite", He gives him his distinction. There are such things in the divine realm as titles: there is no such thing as communism there; it is abominated there, as anything like it is: great dignitaries have their place in the heavenly realm. So God calls Aaron, "the Levite". Moses was one also, for of course they were both of the tribe of Levi; but evidently Aaron had qualified in some way as a Levite. Jehovah does not say, I know him, he is not honoured like Abraham and Moses; but He says, "I know that he can speak well". He knows something about him. There are many that can speak well, but spiritual formation is not behind the speaking. Speaking well is not the all, in ministry. There must be something more; some word of value in what is spoken.

It is significant that it is here that Jehovah takes occasion to enquire, "Who hath made man's mouth?" I suppose it is in a physical sense the masterpiece of God, the powers of speaking that He has given man. How we are here reminded of the Lord, "Never man spake like this man"! (John 7:46). Everything must have been in absolute perfectness; they wondered at the gracious words that were coming out of His mouth. Jehovah takes occasion to call attention to man's mouth here, but there was more than that. He says to Moses

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of Aaron, "he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart". He not only speaks well, but he has good regard for his brother. He was glad when he met Moses, and he kissed him. Now he is going to serve with him for forty years. Paul and Barnabas served together; when Barnabas went to seek out Saul he thought well of him; and they both served well together for a while, but later a difference came up and they separated. A fellow servant is thus apt to test one, although at the outset we may have genuine regard for one another.

Jehovah does not go so far as to say of Aaron, "I know him". I do not want to be short in that sense, nor does any one of us, I am sure; we cannot afford to fall short of full recognition by God. Each would seek to be deserving of it, that, in the sense in which I am speaking of it, God could say, I know that brother; and on what ground? That he loves God. To love the brethren is a test; I cannot say I love God if I do not love my brother (1 John 4:20). But think of the greatness of God! Nothing can be greater as presented to man's mind than God. How am I to contemplate infiniteness? Only in Christ. As apprehending Him in Jesus I can love Him. The Lord as here on earth said, "He that has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). The believer thinks of God and loves Him according to His holy attributes and traits as seen in His beloved Son. Thus he is known of Him. One who loves God is a man according to God. The Spirit sheds the love of God in his heart, and so he loves God and God knows it; and He can say, I know that man. As a lover of God, as called according to His purpose, all things work together for good for him (Romans 8:28).

Dear brethren, we must not be out of all that, we want to be in the realm where everyone is known of God. Everyone there is distinguished, as in "the crowd of names" spoken of in Acts 1:15; each is distinguished,

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as a subject of the work of God; and his distinction is in his name. God owns him.

That is what I had in mind to occupy us with, so that there should be lovers of God in this time, when men are marked off as being lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.

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THE VOICE OF CHRIST

John 3:29; John 5:24 - 29; John 10:3 - 8; John 18:37

J.T. It is in mind that we might consider together the voice of Christ as in these passages, first the voice of the Bridegroom, then the voice of the Son of God, then the Shepherd's voice, then His voice which those that seek the truth discern, as in chapter 18: "Every one that is of the truth hears my voice". What is particularly in mind is the voice of the Bridegroom. The way it appears in this gospel is striking, for it is heard by one who is "sent from God" (chapter 1:6), and it was before John was cast into prison, that is, before the Lord definitely entered upon His service. So that it is obvious that from the very outset the Bridegroom's voice was to be heard; showing how prominently the marital thought was in the Lord's mind as become Man, and as entering upon His service. Inasmuch as John's gospel bears on the last days, as we have often heard, the Bridegroom's voice is intended to be heard by us peculiarly. The Lord is presently to say, and perhaps has said it in the ministry: "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star" (Revelation 22:16). To this the Spirit and the bride, answering, say, Come.

So that it would seem as if John's ministry is particularly calculated to arouse interest in us in this respect, as in others. It is he who, in ministry, brings in "the bride, the Lamb's wife". He speaks about the wife, alluding to the assembly as in her faithfulness during the Lord's absence. The other evangelists, particularly Matthew, speak about the Bridegroom, but the bride is not formally spoken of, although the bride-chamber is. Inasmuch as the synoptic gospels give us the official ministry of Christ, as we may call it -- that is, after John is cast into prison -- we can see from the very earliest that the idea was there with the Lord; He, as it were, had it uppermost in His mind in ministering,

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either as to Israel or as to the assembly. It is thought, therefore, that we might dwell particularly on the verse in John 3. These remarks will appeal to you, I sure.

C.A.C. Yes, I feel the importance of it for us.

H.H. Would you say this is a special moment in which we can hear the Bridegroom's voice?

J.T. Yes, not simply what is said, although what is said is implied, of course, but the voice, which brings in the personal side; whether it be the Lord speaking, as it were, unofficially, as John presents Him at the beginning, or officially after John the baptist is cast into prison, there was that voice; that is to say, it is a voice discernible. There was something in Christ's discourses, remarks, or conversations that came to the Baptist's ears as a personal testimony to His affections for a bride, whoever she might be. The idea of seeking a bride is old. It is well in all these matters to revert back, for truth is cumulative; it is built up from the outset in view of Christ coming in.

So that the idea of seeking a bride is as old as Genesis. Abraham's servant went to seek one for Isaac; Jacob went to seek one for himself; and in that way faith would understand that there must be something of this in Christ becoming Man. Not only had there been the idea of seeking a bride or a wife of old, but God had formerly regarded Israel as in that relation to Himself. The Old Testament, especially the prophets, abounds with allusions to the divine affections, having in view an answer in the sense of marital relation; all that would be embodied in the incarnation. The primary thought of a wife was not from man, but from God. God thought of one for Adam, and evidently Adam was pleased with the creature, so like himself, brought to him by God, and from that point onwards the idea took root in man. It was part of the divine thought; it was not an afterthought; it was in the divine counsels,

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and in due course came in historically. God said: "It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make him a helpmate" (Genesis 2:18), which He did, and presented her to Adam; and from that point onwards the thought as in man develops particularly in men of faith, as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph; then in Moses, David, and Solomon -- in fact, the idea increases as we go on in the line of faith; so that it all headed up in Christ as Man, and John the baptist, with the ear of faith, heard the Bridegroom's voice. He does not say anything about the voice of the bride, but he heard the Bridegroom's voice.

J.C.S. So, going back to the beginning, to Adam and Eve, the union there is really an indication of what was already in the mind of God in regard to Christ and the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. Christ is not an afterthought with God: He was in the beginning with God, and when God announced the thought of a helpmate for man, He had Christ in mind. So Eve becomes a striking -- and, in a certain sense, the greatest -- type of the assembly.

Eu.R. Is it like the one pearl of great price? When the Lord felt, as a Man here, the loss of Israel, He likened Himself to a merchant-man seeking goodly pearls. Does that link on?

J.T. It does in the sense of quality.

J.H.B. Is it not remarkable that a man like John the baptist should have discerned the Lord Jesus to be the Bridegroom, and that he should have such joy in hearing His voice, too, as being that of the Bridegroom?

J.T. It is remarkable, especially with a man like John, who was not himself a family man, but a man brought up in the deserts -- in an austere way. He goes as far as to say, "He that hath the bride", without saying who she was: it was clear in his mind in principle, at least, that the bride existed.

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C.A.C. How does this link on with the thought of Jehovah betrothing Israel to Himself in the Old Testament?

J.T. I suppose that John would in faith gather up all that; so that if Jehovah is characteristically the Bridegroom, if God enters into a relation like that, it must be the final, complete thought, and that thought now took form in Christ here, who is no less than God.

C.A.C. That is what I thought. Those scriptures in the Old Testament would await the incarnation for their coming to maturity.

J.T. It seems that John the baptist must represent the cumulative thoughts of the Old Testament. He came in on that line: there was no greater than he on that line. If he looks at Christ coming to him as he is baptising, he names Him as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (chapter 1:29). That would be a cumulative thought, embodying the great sacrificial line of truth from Abel downwards, would you say?

C.A.C. Yes, I think so.

J.T. "The Lamb of God" conveyed a sacrificial thought, and it arose in John's mind in his seeing Jesus coming to him as he was figuratively administering death. So on the same line I should think that the marital thought running through would be discerned as embodied in Christ, the idea of the Bridegroom, that the Lord is not doleful or in any way disappointed in any circumstance: whatever appeared in Him was going through; He was buoyant in it; there was a certainty that He would overcome in everything.

J.C.S. Would you say that this thought of the bride was constantly in our Lord's mind and close to His thoughts in all His service here?

J.T. Yes; as much as it would be in Jacob's mind as he went to Padan.

C.A.C. Do you think the marital thought takes precedence in the divine mind of the family thought?

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J.T. They run together, I should think. I may remark that one has in view the service of God in what has been said so far, and how the worshippers of God are secured; for that is a leading thought in John: the Father seeks worshippers. As to this, the question is of what the worshippers of God have in their minds. What are they built up in? There is creation and generation. The first wife, Eve, was a creation, but in the subsequent wives noted particularly, the idea was family distinction, family equality. I do not know if that is clear, and whether it fits in with your thought: perhaps you will enlarge upon what you have in your mind?

C.A.C. I was thinking that perhaps the family thought has been more in our minds than the marital thought, and whether some adjustment might be needful to bring us more fully into the mind of God.

J.T. Well, I think the marital thought has not had the place in the service of God that it deserves. We have rightly made much of the family, that is, we are brethren of Christ, God's sons, and the family idea must take precedence, at least from the standpoint of the Father. Abraham's thought, that which he caused his servant to swear to, was a question of family equality in the bride. Ultimately, it seems to me, the family is the leading feature, that is, in the eternal state of things. What God has before Him in regard to Himself is sonship, and what Christ has before Him in regard to Himself is brethren; but the marital relation comes in strikingly, as in Revelation 21, and the peculiar felicity attaching to it, and the corresponding influence it exerts in the whole domain, is what, perhaps, has been overlooked -- that which is in relation to the voice of the Bridegroom.

J.H.B. Are the two thoughts brought together, the family thought and the marital thought, in Song of Songs 5:1 when the Bridegroom addresses the spouse as "my sister, my spouse"? The "sister" would suppose

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a common father, bringing in the family thought: then the spouse would bring in the marital thought.

J.T. That helps: that is to say, we are in a position of ascending love in the service of God -- descending love and ascending love; but then we are also in a position of horizontal affections, so to say: that is, affection between equals, One in the position of a Bridegroom, and the other in the position of a bride; and the grouping of these affections, involving such richness, not only of thought but of feeling, seems to me to be needed for the service of God, to enhance it and make it all that the heart of God seeks.

F.I. Do you mean that the marital side in our assembly service goes on in a horizontal way, while the family side is the ascending idea?

J.T. Yes, only I should not like to make all that goes on in the introduction to the service of God horizontal, because we have to do with the Lord as partaking of His supper; and there it is descending love and ascending love. But we go on to the thought of companionship with Christ, He being then on our side; hence a change of ground in the service. What is needed is that brethren should see that we are to be made worshippers; that we are to be constituted worshippers, and that we should see what it is that constitutes us worshippers. We are to be rich enough in intelligence and feeling to answer to any given requirement in the service of God: as the point is reached according to the order that governs it, we are equal to it. So that much is held in abeyance in our souls until we reach a certain point, and then we are ready for what is required, the Spirit acting in us according to it.

F.I. Do you mean that this would be governed by entering into the marital relation?

J.T. Well, the marital idea is one of the elements we are to have before us. If I am like John the baptist, I shall hear the voice of the Bridegroom; that affects and forms me, and I am ready for that on the great

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occasion when it is reached. So we have, for instance, "a king who made a wedding feast for his son" (Matthew 22:2): I want to be ready for that. I do not simply get ready as I arrive there: I must come in the wedding garment; it is a question of state, how I am built up.

J.C.S. Do you think that the voice of the Bridegroom, with the feelings produced by it, is suggestive of the quality of the voice rather than what is said?

J.T. What is said may enter into it, but it is the voice, and I am being built up as to that, ready for it. I am alluding now to the elements that enter into the constitution of worshippers, what they are, and how they are built up.

R.S.C. It is a subject which causes joy, for in Revelation 19:7 the cry comes: "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come".

J.T. Exactly: they were built up for that; they had thought of it, so they are ready for the great occasion. So if a king makes a wedding feast for his son, guests are invited: we are to be ready for that, because the king comes in to see the guests.

J.A.P. Is what you have in mind the realisation of union?

J.T. That does enter into it; quite so. It gives us a known fixed relation with Christ.

W.D.P. I suppose the bride at the present time should be able to recognise the voice of the Bridegroom. In Song of Songs 2:8 the bride says, "The voice of my beloved!": she recognises his voice. Is it not important that the bride today should recognise the voice of the Bridegroom?

J.T. Yes, it is; and it is necessary for worshippers to understand it. What is in mind in what we are speaking of is the service of God, and John quotes the Lord Himself as introducing the idea of worshippers. We want to know and understand what constitutes a worshipper, because it is a question of what I know

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of God: what He has in His mind -- Christ in His marital relation, as we see in the parable referred to, is in His mind; so that I am built up in this and other wonderful thoughts, and when a great assembly occasion arrives, I am ready for it: I am ready for any part of the service as its time arrives.

A.W.G.T. In that connection does the thought of friendship help at all? John the baptist spoke of himself as "the friend of the bridegroom".

J.T. It does help; it is a word John used peculiarly, meaning that I am with the Lord, as it were, in the sense of secret understanding.

Eu.R. Does Ezekiel help as to the people of the land coming in to worship in the set feasts? Would the Lord's supper be one of the "set feasts"? And would we come in as "the people of the land", knowing what we are there for, and how to comport ourselves (Ezekiel 46:9)?

J.T. It does help: those holy convocations were intended to build up Israel in what was pleasing to God, and what His heart was set for. One important requirement is that "he that cometh in by way of the north gate to worship shall go out by way of the south gate ... he shall not return by the way of the gate by which he came in, but shall go out straight before him". Our brother has referred to Jehovah entering into the marital thought with Israel: He says, "I remember for thee the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land not sown" (Jeremiah 2:2). He never forgot that; it was a very precious thing to Him that they came after Him in the wilderness. Now in the land the males were to go up three times in the year to appear before Him: there were seven feasts really, but three are singled out. The males here allude to the intelligence side of the position: they were to go up, not empty, but full; they were never to appear before God empty. What can that mean, but that they were full of divine

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thoughts, what God is? I believe that as reaching Jerusalem, the very sight of it enamoured the hearts of the true worshippers. But think of what it was to Jehovah's eye as He saw them come up to Jerusalem! All that entered into every year. What years God had! Each had its seven feasts, which would mean the whole spiritual year filled out; but then there were three special ones (Deuteronomy 16), and, assuming that the spiritual thought entered into these feasts, what occasions they were for God as He saw His beloved people approaching Jerusalem with Him in their hearts! That was the thought: it was fresh at the beginning; it waned, alas! as we know; Isaiah 1 shows that what the feasts became caused Jehovah to abominate them.

Jehovah applies the marital thought to Jerusalem in Ezekiel. Jeremiah speaks of what the love of Israel's espousals was at the beginning; but Ezekiel 16 speaks of what Jerusalem was to God, how He found her, clothed her, beautified her, and said that she was to be His. She failed Him, but still that was what was in His mind. So that, in becoming Man, clearly enough the Lord Jesus embodied all these thoughts; John had no doubt about the relationship either, for he says: "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom"; he would have had no thought of the Bridegroom, if he had been uncertain that the bride was to be there.

C.A.C. How far does the thought of worship come in as between the bride and the Bridegroom?

J.T. We had yesterday morning a little word on Psalm 45 which seemed to fit in at a particular time in the service. It is, as you will know, one of the Maschils, and a "song of loves" too, that is, a song into which love enters. The writer is stirred up in his soul about the King, and says great things about Him; but then he proceeds to say: "upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir", suggesting a complete thought as to her. The psalm requires that: the writer

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was a worshipper, and hence he had that thought in his heart. He sees the "queen", which is the full thought -- abstractly, of course; but it is there, and she is on the King's right. But then, what is the history of the queen? What elementary thoughts led to this full feminine result? Well, the next term is not that suggesting a bride, but a daughter, the family thought: "Hearken, daughter"; and then the psalmist says, "forget thine own people and thy father's house: and the king will desire thy beauty; for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him". I refer to that because it brings in just what you suggest, that is, the worshipful idea as existent, between the King and those who form the assembly. If we apply "the queen" to the assembly, we see her history in those of whom she is formed: each one forgets her own people and her father's house, she denies natural feelings; and the King sees beauty in her accordingly. Then, "She shall be brought unto the king"; He desires her: He desires her beauty. She is brought to the King in raiment of needlework, and she is "all glorious within", that is, inside, in the King's abode or palace. So it seems to me that that psalm fits in, and John the baptist undoubtedly would know it; and it enters into the fibre of a worshipper, the wonderful thought of the marital relation, whether between Christ as the Messiah and Israel; or between Christ, as we know Him, and the assembly. What peculiar lustre there is in the relations and affections that go with it!

C.A.C. Would there be any kind of link with the thought that the Son is to be honoured equally with the Father? Would that connect?

J.T. The Father and the Son have to be equally honoured; according to Matthew's gospel, Christ calls the assembly His -- "my assembly"; but in the Corinthian epistles it is God's assembly right through; even if it be that in which the Lord's supper is celebrated, it is God's assembly. But then Christ honours the

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Father in it. The service beginning with the Supper leads to this. The Father honours the Son also in the assembly: so we have in parable a king making a wedding feast for his son (Matthew 22). All this shows what elements enter into the constitution of worshippers, how rich our thoughts are to be as we sit down in assembly.

C.A.C. It gives very great expansion and variety to the possibilities of affection and worship when we come together.

J.C.S. You were saying that the marital thought has been to some extent lost to the service of God, and that the restoration of it to its proper place in the service of God would result in more worship to the Father?

J.T. Yes. All these things are in the divine mind, whether in the mind of the Father, the Son, or of the Spirit, they are there: We must not be ignorant of them, nor ignorant of any divine desire or requirement.

W.S.S. Is it suggestive that in John 4 the Lord speaks to the woman in regard to the Father seeking worshippers, and God being worshipped -- to one who was being adjusted in regard to the marital relationship?

J.T. That is very interesting. The Lord raises the question of her husband: a significant matter.

H.H. Is not the principle governing worship, that approach to God is equal to the revelation made, both brought about by the Lord Jesus, hence the result is worship in spirit and in truth? The High Priest of our confession, as in Hebrews, takes up our side, and thus the response in the saints is commensurate with the revelation and declaration of the Father?

J.T. That helps much. It is remarkable how the servants in the Old Testament, those who had to do with the service of God particularly, are seen as in the marital relation. Jethro, a gentile, brings Moses' wife to him just before the people pitched before the mount, in view of the service of God: they were to serve God at that mountain. They were just about to pitch before the mountain, and a gentile brings Zipporah to

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Moses at that point (Exodus 18). There is not much to say about her, but she is there: the mind of the mediator, as seen entering on the service of God in chapter 19, would be affected by her presence.

Then we come to David, the great minister of song in the service of God. Abigail comes before him, not as Zipporah before Moses, for there is nothing much to say about Zipporah personally; but she was Moses' wife: that is made very plain, for three times she is referred to as Moses' wife. That is the point there, that the worshipper has that idea in his mind. As to David, Samuel had died, and David encounters Nabal. With regard to Abigail, it is not a question of a young person, a virgin, but of a person already in the marital relation. She is said to have a good understanding: that is, now it is not simply the idea of a wife, but the real concrete thought; that is needed in these matters. She has good understanding and a beautiful countenance, and is one who knows how to say to divine matters; and as complete adjustment takes place -- that is, her husband is dead -- she is free to "be married to another". So it is with us: as the husband is dead, all this comes about -- we are free from the law of the husband, to be married to another, "who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:3,4) -- a most important part of our make-up, as worshippers of God.

J.H.K. Would you say we get help as to this great matter as we commit ourselves to it? In Matthew 22 the thought of bondmanship comes in: the king commanded his bondmen on the occasion of the marriage of his son. The same idea is seen in the Father's house in Luke 15; the Father says to the bondmen: "Bring forth the best robe". Do we need to commit ourselves to this great line of truth, as we have, through grace, committed ourselves to worship in God's house?

J.T. You mean that bondmanship means committing oneself to the service required. The idea begins

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with Christ in the types: the Hebrew bondman committed himself thoroughly for service. It is a question of love -- love goes the whole way.

Rem. It seems from Matthew 22 that it is God's own matter that there should be this wedding feast for His Son.

J.T. And that the guests should be suitably attired, that we should have on the wedding garments as essential to this great matter; for the king came in to see the guests as thinking of his son. It is God honouring His Son, and you do not want to be behind in that!

W.B.H. Is what you are now saying covered by the scripture in John 4:24: "they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth"?

J.T. Just so: that is on our side; but then there is what is in the Father's heart -- the knowledge of what is in His heart. The worshippers must understand what God is seeking. It is said sometimes that He is seeking worship, but Scripture says rather that He is seeking worshippers. Such know Him and what is in His mind. All these thoughts about marriage from Adam downward, which have been, and are, in the divine mind, are embodied in Christ as Man; and John heard that voice, and furnishes, in this respect a lead for us. So true worshippers have the same sensibility and thought as they approach God. Of course, there are many other thoughts, but let us not forget this thought, because it is of the most felicitous character. In the gospel of John, the Lord is spoken of as attending an ordinary marriage; but it was more than that; the Lord undoubtedly had in mind what we are speaking about. He made it more than an ordinary wedding could be. The wine He furnished, suggesting spiritual stimulation, enters into our subject.

Ques. Is the point reached in Isaiah 61 -- the bridegroom decked with the priestly turban? Is that the point reached in your mind? Has that the service of God in view?

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J.T. Exactly; the priestly turban has the service of God in mind. The connection of priestly headdress with the thought of bridegroom there is remarkable.

E.S.H. Would the joy of the Bridegroom and the bride be entered upon on resurrection ground, that is, after partaking of the Lord's supper?

J.T. It fits in there. The service of God is in parts in a sense. The true worshippers are ready for each in its place -- they know what to do. They have rich thoughts, only they hold them till the proper time to express them. They are always there, enhanced, of course, by the presence of divine Persons; but they are always there: you do not lose them, even on ordinary week-days; you are cherishing them and adding to them all the time. John has worshippers in mind, how they are built up.

J.C.S. So worshippers are ready for everything suitable in the service. Would you say that the same thought may not always be deeply touched every Lord's day morning?

J.T. It is a question of what may be touched, and you are ready for it, you are ready for the great occasion; and therefore, I think chapter 12 gives us an example of one who serves: it was a great occasion, and "Martha served"; that is, she was ready for that occasion. When the Lord entered her house the first time, she could not serve thus, she was not ready; now she is, and Mary is ready too; she also is greater than she was when the Lord entered the house the first time: she has a "pound of ointment of pure nard of great price"; she is ready for the occasion.

Eu.R. In Psalm 45, with reference to the expression: "The king's daughter is all glorious within", there is a footnote explaining that it is within the royal apartments. Ought we not to be concerned to know the royal apartments, to be there suitably and in response?

J.T. Yes. The great full thought is in verse 9: "Upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold

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of Ophir". That is the great thought, you might say, in the abstract; but you want to reach it. It is reached in the manner indicated by the subsequent verses.

C.O.B. Does the description of the holy city in Revelation 21:2: "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", show that the marital thought is not to be lost sight of?

J.T. That passage shows that it is carried through to eternity. The fact that we have the tabernacle of God mentioned immediately after that indicates what would develop out of it, how God would find perfect rest in it, a place of abode in it as "with men". But her character is as a bride adorned for her husband -- what she is to Christ; but then what she may become is the next thing, what she is for God. The loud voice out of heaven says, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men" (verse 3).

Eu.R. Do we get the same idea in Ephesians 3:19: "to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge" -- would the marital relation of Christ to the church enter into that? Then, "To him" -- that is, God -- "be glory in the assembly" (verse 21)?

J.T. That is a little like it: several thoughts bearing on our subjects are seen there; the first, the Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith, meaning Christ dwelling there operatively; that is another great element in our souls; then, "the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge" is a further thing, in which we may rightly include marital affection -- all leading up to the great end in that chapter, glory to God "in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages".

Now John 5 goes with all this -- the voice of the Son of God. We can see, as we have said, that John the baptist gives us a lead; but in order to bring in living persons, that is, for the assembly, we need the voice of the Son of God, although this is to be distinguished from the voice of the Bridegroom: it is Christ's voice dealing with death, with those who are dead in a moral

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sense, and then His voice in regard to those who are in the graves, literally dead. Then in chapter 10 it is His voice as gathering us together -- the Shepherd's voice, bringing us into one flock, and the knowledge that exists between Him and us: as the Father knows Him, and He knows the Father; the sheep know Him: how great an element that is in a worshipper!

J.H.B. In our experience, would hearing the voice of the Son of God and the voice of the Shepherd precede our hearing the voice of the Bridegroom?

J.T. I think so. John the baptist gives us the lead. He belongs to another dispensation, but in him it almost merges into ours according to John the evangelist's account. But we are to note that the subject of worshippers is immediately introduced in chapter 4; then the subject of life in chapter 5. Then in chapter 10 the subject of the sheep and the Shepherd. These are all constructive things, constructive in regard of many things, but constructive in regard of worshippers. Finally, in chapter 18, in the midst of apostasy, the intense darkness, when the Lord is about to be crucified, there are those who hear His voice, as we alluded to it at the beginning: "Every one that is of the truth hears my voice". It is a final test on this line as to whether we are of the truth. Why are there so many divisions amongst the people of God? It is because many are not characteristically of the truth.

J.H.B. Would the word to Laodicea come in in connection with chapter 18: "Behold, I stand at the door and am knocking; if any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me" (Revelation 3:20)?

J.T. Just so; it is a question of hearing His voice. It is not simply that you hear Him knocking. Many hear the knocking, that is, discipline and the like; but then, do they hear His voice in the knocking? It is the voice that the Lord stresses.

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J.H.B. We might even hear His voice and not open the door.

J.T. We might be suffering under discipline, too, and not hear His voice. The personal touch is what the Lord would keep before us in all these matters.

J.C.S. We may not be able to understand all He says, but we should know His voice well.

J.T. That is the point as to the sheep: they know His voice. They are not concerned to know every other voice: they do not need to -- in fact, the Lord says, that they do not know the voice of strangers. They do not need to analyse the other voices at all; but the sheep characteristically know the Shepherd's voice.

Eu.R. What does that convey: "Every one that is of the truth"?

J.T. It is a characteristic thought. Pilate goes on to ask, "What is truth?" -- a question that is being asked all round; but are there any "of the truth"? They hear the voice of Christ. John stresses this thought right through; it is really a question of the work of God, the spiritual element in man as the fruit of the work of God. It would always refer to Christ, always recognise and correspond with Him.

P.S. Is this characteristic found in Philadelphia? I was thinking of the way the Lord presents Himself there, and reference is made to the overcomer in connection with the name "new Jerusalem": would that suggest the marital thought, too?

J.T. Quite so, meaning that the overcomer in Philadelphia understands these matters, what refers to Christ, and particularly "new Jerusalem". It is "as a bride adorned for her husband" the city is said to be new.

Ques. Does Philadelphia hear the voice of Christ at the present time?

J.T. Yes; those characteristically of the assembly hear His voice as He announces Himself as "the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come" (Revelation 22:16,17).

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Ques. In Revelation 1 we read that John turned back to see the voice which spoke to him: does that indicate how qualified John was to speak of all these matters?

J.T. Yes. It is as much as to say a voice is a person: he turned to see the voice -- a remarkable thing. He turned to see: it was what he saw. What a word this is at this juncture -- when the Lord is in the presence of Pilate about to be crucified! All darkness centred there, all falsehood! He asserted a great principle in regard of the truth: "Everyone who is of the truth hears my voice" -- not simply, "what I say", but the personal thing -- you discern that voice: you may not understand everything, but the voice of Christ holds you. Ministry is what is alluded to. We have what the Spirit says; but the voice of Jesus, the voice of Christ, is the personal touch: you feel you cannot do without that, it holds you.

G.H.W. John refers to it in his first epistle, does he not, when he says: "he that knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us" (chapter 4:6)?

J.T. That is the same sort of thing. John deals with all these features of the work of God. They correspond with Christ, abstractly, at least, they recognise Christ.

J.C.S. It is a great thing to discern the Lord's voice, especially in any circumstances relating to the assembly.

J.H.B. Would it not guard against any tendency to scattering, and correct it, if present?

J.T. If I know the Lord, I discern His voice. The characteristic of the sheep is that "they know his voice". "This allegory" that the Lord speaks brings in this peculiar touch, that the sheep know His voice, that they do not know the voice of strangers, but His voice, and they follow Him. It becomes a question of whether I know the Lord's voice, and if I do, in complicated

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matters I shall be kept right: I may not understand everything, but I know the Shepherd's voice.

W.S.S. It is very instructive to see these features brought out by John, the writer for the last days, as if to suggest that by these means in such circumstances the worship of God should be carried on.

J.T. That is what his writings are intended for, to build us up in these features, to make worshippers out of us; as built up in them we understand. The Lord's voice holds us; so that He prepares us for the final thought: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". Now it is what He is saying, and the Spirit and bride say "Come": we are built up for that (Revelation 22:16,17).

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CHRIST WALKING

John 1:29 - 39; John 6:16 - 21; Revelation 2:1

J.T. These chapters speak of Christ walking. Certain circumstances and results are in view, first His sacrificial walk or movement, then His gathering walk -- both these thoughts are seen in chapter 1. In chapter 6 His walk in superiority to circumstances; and then in Revelation His judicial walk.

Our first point is the sacrificial movement of Christ. John, seeing Jesus coming to him, says, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world". That is the first feature of our subject to be considered. The Baptist discerns the movement of Christ and names the significance of it. The designation "Lamb of God" implies what is sacrificial.

W.E.M. Would Abraham seem to have some light in his soul as to this -- "God will provide himself a lamb" (Genesis 22:8)?

J.T. The designation used by John would spiritually link on with what preceded it of a sacrificial nature, inclusive of Abraham saying, "God will provide himself a lamb". John shows that he is moving on cumulative lines, not assuming to start anything of his own, for he immediately goes on to say, "He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me". Any inauguration in view would be Christ's, not John's. It is well in a practical way to have this in mind, that we have come into what began long since. Other men have laboured and we have entered into their labours. On this line John proceeds to enlarge on the personal greatness of Christ. It says, "John bore witness, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding

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on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God". So that the personal greatness of Christ is immediately linked on by the Baptist with the sacrificial thought seen in Christ's movements.

S.P.F. What would be the import of His coming to John as the Lamb of God?

J.T. John was baptising, which was a figure of the application of death. The Lord came to him, not as needing baptism, nor as needing to make any confession on His own account; but the fact that He came to him, and was known and discerned by John, brought out the thought of His sacrificial work whereby He should take away the sin of the world. "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us" (2 Corinthians 5:21).

G.B. Would the godly remnant be on the look-out for the Lamb of God?

J.T. Well, it would seem so: certainly John had it in mind. What the godly remnant would look for is a very interesting suggestion -- that is, what faith looks for. Luke relates how Simeon looked for things, and Anna spoke to all in Jerusalem who looked for redemption. Those who looked for divine things were in the first rank in the divine mind as to what was coming in in Christ. We are told that He "shall appear to those that look for him the second time without sin for salvation" (Hebrews 9:28). Great value is attached to those who expect on the principle of faith. But it was Jesus, as He moved to him, who reminded John of the sacrificial side of His work. The movement evidently carried with it, in his divinely enlightened eye, the thought of sacrifice, so that he names Jesus as "the Lamb of God".

A.A.T. Does the sacrificial thought include the judicial side?

J.T. Yes, it includes the judicial side as to what lay on man, what was in the world -- primarily the question of the sin of the world -- the great thought

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extending back to Adam: He has to take that away, but the judicial walk of Christ is not seen here. The judicial part in this matter would be God's, for He came out of His place, as it were, to deal with sin in the sacrifice of Christ, but the judicial walk in Revelation is on the part of the Lord in His place amid the candlesticks in the christian profession.

H.S.H. Does Hebrews 10:5 fit in with what you have before you? "Wherefore coming into the world he says, Sacrifice and offering thou willedst not; but thou hast prepared me a body".

J.T. That enters into what is before us.

-.W. Does the great question of the sin of the world form a background to declare the greatness of the Person spoken of?

J.T. Quite so. The immensity of the problem -- the sin of the world! John uses the word "world" in various connections, but when he uses it to convey the volume of sin, then we have to come back to the beginning of it. It is the world as a system, and the sin is cumulative; it has come right down, there is not one item of it omitted! John sometimes uses the word "world" to convey what extends beyond Israel; this is an instance.

A.B.P. Was walking first introduced after the fall?

J.T. Yes. Genesis 3 says that God walked in the garden and said to Adam, "Where art thou?" -- sin was already there, that was the suggestion. Think of the accumulation of sin from that moment on! Think of the problem in heaven, what thoughts arose as to it, as the race moved on, enlarged and spread abroad, the flood dealing with it only partially; and then the descendants of Noah spreading themselves abroad -- sin being carried down -- what a problem! As it is dwelt upon, how the greatness of Christ arises in the mind! He takes it away.

F.G.S. Is it the greatness of the Person here? "Who takes away the sin of the world".

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J.T. That is the idea, so that the Baptist immediately proceeds to tell us more about this great Person. We can understand how John would shrink in his own estimation in the presence of this problem, and the One who could face it and deal with it!

B.G. Does faith see the greatness of the Person in His every aspect? Abraham has been referred to: when Abraham saw the Lord's day, would he by faith see Him here walking?

J.T. Well, I suppose we may say that, but I have understood that the allusion in John 8 is to the weaning of Isaac rather than to the sacrifice of Isaac. The weaning was the inauguration of Christ's day, typically; he was fully owned in the house, Ishmael being cast out.

P.L. The upright remnant having, through baptism, given John their ear in relation to the Lord sacrificially, would be prepared for the Father's declaration regarding His beloved Son?

J.T. Well, quite so. According to the synoptic accounts of this great incident, heaven came in immediately to evidence its delight and to call attention to Him; but here it is John who witnesses to His sonship. Heaven's own voice, the Father's own voice, witnessed to it, according to the synoptic gospels. So your thought is that He was speaking in the ears of the upright, those who had come to John to be baptised?

P.L. The foundation being laid in the appreciation of the sacrifice, you can have the great structure built up in the soul regarding His varied glories.

J.T. I think we all begin with this, really. I mean, believers do normally begin with Christ as the Lamb of God, the One who was sacrificed.

S.P.F. Among other things, would "the Lamb of God" suggest His spirit and character?

J.T. Quite so. As regards the passover, "Christ our passover is sacrificed for us" (1 Corinthians 5:7). The lamb had to be selected from the flock, indeed, "seized" out of it,

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and kept in the house of the Israelite for four days, so that it would be objectively before them for those days. What His character was, what Jesus was, would be before their minds, typically, before He was slain. Another beautiful thought that comes in is how He moved here: it was to John, which would carry with it what He was as having this great problem in mind, for, as we have said, John was baptising.

Ques. Do you limit the taking away of the sin of the world to what is sacrificial, or does it include the acts of power of the Lamb in Revelation?

J.T. It includes all that is necessary to accomplish this great result -- the taking away of the sin of the world. We know in ourselves how the Lord acts so that sin might be taken away from each of us in a practical sense, that it might cease to operate. It requires not only His own death sacrificially, but the discipline that is needed in us to judge sin and to bring us to a deep judgment of sin as God judges it. The passover is intended for that, so that we eat it with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth, which operates with the sacrifice of Christ in us to produce the state of uprightness and self-judgment.

A.F.M. You referred to the four days -- the lamb being kept in the house four days: is the suggestion to endear Christ to our hearts?

J.T. Well, that is what I thought. We can understand how the children of the family would be affected by the presence of the lamb in the house; so that in the antitype those who came to love Jesus, who saw His movements and heard His words, learned something of His life -- how they felt in regard to His Person!

H.C. Do you connect with this the passage in Hebrews 9:26, "But now once in the consummation of the ages he has been manifested for the putting away of sin by his sacrifice"?

J.T. Certainly. He appeared in the end of the age to do it in His own Person by His own sacrifice. The

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closing verse of that chapter is connected with the end of our present period; then Christ shall appear "to those that look for him". John represents those who had the sacrificial work of Christ as "the Lamb of God" in mind: he looked for Him. We know how the types instruct us and how the exercises of the saints in the Psalms instruct us as to this matter; the prophet, too, used the very word, "he was led as a lamb to the slaughter" (Isaiah 53:7). Faith would take hold of all that. You take hold of what has come in since, and look for Him: "unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Hebrews 9:28).

F.G.S. Does the sacrificial thought enter into the second speaking? "Again the next day after John stood ... and looking upon Jesus ... saith, Behold the Lamb of God!"

J.T. It is the sacrificial thought now as entering into His gathering movements, that is, the second movement has in mind the gathering up of the results of the sacrifice, for these must be taken care of; so we see how He became the centre, for one idea in John is that He gathers on the principle of attraction. Luke would stress the going after souls, but John sees them gathered on the principle of attraction. John also speaks of Christ as Shepherd, having in view the "one flock".

The words here allude to His walk. John saw Jesus coming to him, that is, His face was in that direction, and His movements would reflect what was in His mind, and John was able to name that. It suggests to us the matter of naming what we see spiritually. As Adam began to name the creatures of old, so this chapter shows how John is able to name what he saw according to movement, and now Jesus looks on Peter and names him, too. Peter is the sort of material that He specially takes notice of -- "thou shalt be called Cephas" (John 1:42). So that in gathering He names what comes to Him.

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F.W.B. John bears witness to what he had seen.

J.T. Well, that is the point here. "I have seen and borne witness", he says, "that this is the Son of God". The One who sent him to baptise with water gave him a sign, "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him ..."; but he discerns Him in His walk, His movements.

W.E.M. Should it not be affecting to our hearts that the Lamb of God and the Son of God are the same blessed Person?

J.T. Quite so. It is intended to make us worshipful of the Lord Jesus. John the evangelist would bring that out, that the Son of God is discerned and we worship Him. He speaks of the blind man in chapter 9 as an example of this; he worshipped the Son of God.

M.B-h. Is the baptising with the Holy Spirit in view of the sacrificial work and of the greatness of the Person?

J.T. It would carry the thought that the Lord negates and displaces sin by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the world filled with the Spirit, as it were; the results of the Spirit that are in mind.

We may now go on to verse 35. "There stood John and two of his disciples. And, looking at Jesus as he walked, he says, Behold the Lamb of God". The second comment of John does not stress the sacrificial thought, that is already there; this is additional, namely, that He is now attracting the results of His death -- as it were, drawing them to Himself. He does not gather otherwise than on sacrificial ground. "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone". So that the sacrificial movement is followed by this second walking, meaning, I think, that His movement now is attractive.

S.S. Do we get a fresh glory of His Person now: having seen His greatness as bearing away the sin of the world, we now see Him as bringing in a sphere for God, permeated by the Holy Spirit and thus held in power and affection?

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J.T. That is right. Baptism with the Holy Spirit would include the work of the Spirit, so that there is a world filled with that instead of with sin, and it applies to everyone of us. We are all baptised by one Spirit into one body. It replaces the activity of sin. This gospel treats of the great subject seen in characteristic examples, of "Christ in us". If Christ be in us -- that is, if He has come into our souls, as we see Him walking -- the body is dead on account of sin, and the Spirit is life on account of righteousness. That takes the place of sin. The body becomes the vehicle of life by the Spirit.

-.W. Is one right in thinking, from verse 35, that the testimony is always in movement and that the Spirit of God would have us intelligent as to those movements?

J.T. That is what is in mind here. The ministry of John the baptist is not presented in this gospel as in the synoptic gospels. He just says something about Christ, which is the outcome of how he was affected by what he saw. He is not speaking officially; here indeed he is standing, which would suggest that his work is finished, because Christ has come on the scene; and he just speaks as he is impressed by Him. He looks on Jesus as He walked! "There stood John and two of his disciples. And, looking at Jesus as he walked, he says, Behold the Lamb of God". It is not a question of official ministry, but of one's admiration of Him and expressing it in the hearing of others -- that is all. So that every christian may have part in such testimony. If I am affected by Christ, affected by Him personally, then I shall affect others: everyone may affect others by speaking admiringly of Christ.

S.S. Delighting now in the light of the Person.

J.T. Well, this is the Person of Christ, but still the Lamb of God; for I apprehend if we are drawn to Christ it is as sacrificed, as One who has had to do with sin sacrificially; the assembly is really formed that

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way. We are drawn to Him as in this character, for we are in a world of sin. He has dealt with the matter, but He is now walking. What is He walking for? That is left open. It is what an admirer sees -- what He is; and as he expresses himself, it has a gathering effect: they leave John and follow Jesus.

M.M. Would it be right to think that although these features are unique in the Lord Himself, yet they can be worked out among the saints today?

J.T. Certainly. We are to walk as He walked; John the evangelist says that later. It involves that we are persons who deal with sin; we do not come under sin, we judge it and have done with it.

J.W.G. Do the movements of the two here come under the direct notice of the Lord -- Jesus having turned and seeing them following?

J.T. Well, that is the position which is so beautifully presented here. He was quite alive to what John had said and the effect of it. May we not see that in a person who has come to admire Christ in the gospel? The Lord is looking for some results in that person. He is going to gather up that result and make much of it. That is what is going on every day.

H.M. What time is referred to when He will gather together in one all the children of God scattered abroad?

J.T. You are quoting chapter 11:52: "not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad"? It is the present time. It is not Israel that is in mind, it is the children of God.

P.L. Is this principle not seen in Moses' song as he passes on from the sacrificial side to the "greatness of thine excellency", both thoughts furnishing the basis for Israel's assembly movements in Exodus 16, issuing in the encampment at Sinai?

J.T. Quite so. All that intervened from the Red Sea to Sinai had in mind what would take place at Sinai. The saints are taken on in a new way, on the

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principle of being gathered as an assembly. Here we have to observe that John does not say, Behold the Son of God -- although according to what he says, he knew that He was the Son of God. The reason is, I think, that the Spirit of God had in mind that the One who is the Centre of gathering is the One who deals with sin. The assembly is to be imbued with the idea of dealing with sin.

A.F.M. Does that refer to the totality of sin -- "the sin of the world"?

J.T. Yes; we ought to have a judgment of sin; we have to deal with it when it comes in amongst us. In the very fibre of our being this is to be, that we have taken on the idea of dealing judicially with sin.

W.J.C. You mean that those who are actually gathered amongst us have a judgment about sin?

J.T. If they have not they will be a trouble to us: anyone who comes in amongst us and has not dealt with sin in himself, will be a troubler.

E.J.F. Would that be seen in the early days of the assembly? In Acts 5, after Ananias and Sapphira were dealt with, there were additions, believers were added to the Lord.

J.T. Well, exactly. That is a good illustration of what we were saying as to the judicial side. God dealt with sin judicially in the sacrifice of Christ. Christ dealt with it, too, for He confessed and took on the sins that He bore as judging them; He took them on as judging them and owning them before God -- He owned them before God as taking them on vicariously. So that in the case of Ananias and Sapphira, Peter brings the three divine Persons into the matter of the sin of these two persons. He says, "Why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit ... Thou hast not lied to men, but to God" and "Why is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?" "God", "the Lord", and "the Spirit" -- All brought into this matter of Ananias

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and Sapphira. It was God who was offended in His assembly, and Peter dealt with it as one who understood and named the sin; but it did not hinder the work of gathering because many, multitudes both of men and women, believed and were added to the Lord.

H.F. Would the thought of judging sin by separating from it be brought out in 2 Timothy?

J.T. That is the idea in our own time. The basis of the present position is, "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity" (chapter 2:19). If we take up this ground of judging sin, that is, are drawn to Christ as the Lamb of God walking (for if He walks in this world it is as judging it -- He judges sin), we shall have troublous waters to walk on, troublous circumstances, we shall have the wind blowing against us. Chapter 6:17 says, "And it had already become dark, and Jesus has not come to them, and the sea was agitated by a strong wind blowing". We ought to note that in chapter 1 those who were drawn to Christ as the Lamb of God walking, wanted to be taught -- they called Him, "Rabbi". He was not only judging sin, but teaching: opening up the truth in this way as to God, and they came under this teaching as with Him, where He abode. But as learning thus from Him, we shall find troubled waters; we ought to expect them, and not be disappointed if they arise. The sea becomes troubled! Never has the sea -- the condition of things in the world -- been more troubled than it is now.

F.G. S. Do you think abiding with Him, as suggested in chapter 1, for "it was about the tenth hour", would fit us for this agitation of the waters?

J.T. I think so. You get near to Him where He abides and learn how He looks at things. "They abode with him that day" -- they saw how He finished the day. We are now at the finish of the day, and we are to learn how to be in the finish, and how the Lord looks at things where He abides. We may thus see how restful He is about it, yet thoroughly taking all into account,

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knowing exactly what is current, and which way things will go.

J.W.G. As we are attracted to the Lord in these conditions, the Lord comes to us.

J.T. That is the idea. We are attracted to Him, but He comes to us in our time of trouble. Chapter 6, to which we have alluded, speaks of a time of trouble. It says, "when evening was come, his disciples went down to the sea, and having gone on board ship, they went over the sea to Capernaum. And it had already become dark, and Jesus had not come to them, and the sea was agitated by a strong wind blowing. Having rowed then about twenty-five or thirty stadia, they see Jesus walking on the sea and coming near the ship". They are allowed the experience, the trouble: the Lord allows us to go through certain things; we learn by them, and then He gives relief.

A.L.B. Does the rowing "about twenty-five or thirty stadia" suggest that they had made some progress in spite of the difficult conditions?

J.T. I think that is right. They were making some headway, they were rowing, the passage says.

M.C. Why is the distance they had rowed not defined exactly?

J.T. It says "about", it is left open; the point is, that they had rowed a considerable distance. It may be either the one or the other, but the fact remains that they make some headway.

P.L. Love is generous in its estimate?

J.T. Yes. The more generous you are, the more likely you would be to say that they rowed thirty stadia. The fact that they were frightened shows how cloudy we are in these circumstances, in a crisis. We are peculiarly apt to mistake persons and their movements. Here the Lord says, "It is I".

W.J.W. He does not rebuke the sea. It is a greater thing to see Him walking? He says, "It is I".

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J.T. The circumstances are not changed, nor do we get Peter walking here. It is simply that He says, "It is I; be not afraid". "They were willing therefore to receive him into the ship". Willingness is a good point in regard of difficulties. They were not effusive about it: "they were willing therefore ..." It is a great point if people are willing to take on what is of God, and it will work out in time.

F.W.B. How do you regard the ship?

J.T. I suppose it is still Jewish circumstances, but whatever it be, they are critical circumstances. The ship would be Jewish circumstances, or in our own times the public position. It was their own movement and they intended to reach a certain place, they were definite.

H.F. Would you apply this to help our brethren particularly who are suffering from oppression?

J.T. This incident should be of practical help to them. The question is whether they are rowing. John has movement in mind. What kind of energy has there been? Has any headway been made? I mean to say, where our brethren are hindered, where the wind is agitated against them, and the enemy is apparently getting the upper hand, what headway has been made? Is it judicial on the part of God, or is it merely a matter of Satanic power? Do you not think that those questions should come up with us?

H.F. Yes. Rowing would suggest unity, would it not?

J.T. Yes -- according to stroke and against the wind and the waves.

P.L. Does not the Lord rebuke Sardis for its lack of movement? "A name that thou livest, and art dead" (Revelation 3:1). Might we not link up "the opened door" in Philadelphia with His word here to the disciples, "It is I; be not afraid"?

J.T. Quite so. Revelation 3:8 says, "I have set before thee an opened door, which no one can shut".

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If there be a shut one now anywhere, why is it? Is it because Philadelphian conditions are not existent?

P.L. Would the allusion of the Lord to Philadelphia and "a little strength" connect with the brotherly love in which we learn to row together against the stream?

J.T. Clearly. With a little strength, although the winds will be against us, we shall make some progress.

G.R.W. Is not the principle, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mark 12:17), very necessary in view of present troubles? And does the way we accept what is happening prove whether our judgment is on a spiritual basis?

J.T. It requires great thought as to what is happening. We have to name the thing, and that tests us. Is it an act of God or an act of Satan? An act of Satan may be indirectly an act of God. Satan moved David to number the people; but we are told in another place that God did it, evidently through Satan. So that we have to see what it is, what is at work; if it is a judicial act, we have to wait and see how God will work it out, whether we have learned what He intends us to learn in it; if it is a purely satanic act we have not to be dilatory, but must know how to face it.

A.L.B. Is it important in such circumstances to discern Jesus walking on the water? Though Satan himself is behind the opposing circumstances, Jesus is able to walk upon them, indicating His superiority to them.

J.T. That is the point here. He is superior to the movements of the enemy in agitating the sea. They are not called upon to walk. It is a question of rowing, as has been suggested, the holding on to the principle governing the position, whatever it be; whether, as in our scripture, it be judaism or, as for us, the assembly, there are principles involved. In holding on to these principles, the strong wind will blow (as it has been in our own circumstances and will continue to be) and

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the sea will become agitated, but we must row. There is to be energy in spite of the strong wind and the waves. It is a different lesson from Matthew 14, where Peter goes out on the water; they do not go out here, but are willing to take the Lord in, as the passage says, "They were willing therefore to receive him into the ship; and immediately the ship was at the land to which they went". In taking Him in, what caused fear is now seen clearly. As we receive Him willingly, all becomes clear. In such circumstances there is some issue, and every issue is really in regard of Christ. The position may be cloudy, but we come to see it all clearly as we receive Him willingly.

Ques. "It is I". It is not a title brought forward. What has been before us in the earlier part, was the Lamb of God and the Son of God and the Teacher. Is this not a challenge as to how much we know Him personally?

J.T. Quite so. It is the Person that should be known. His presentation of Himself, as here, is to persons who know Him. "It is I", not in any given feature of His Person, but Himself. John himself says later, in another cloudy situation, "It is the Lord".

-.M. Would it not be an encouragement to each one of us to bring the Lord into our circumstances?

J.T. Yes, you are willing to let Him in. "It is I". He says nothing about the sea or the troubles; "It is I", that is the point! Their difficulty is not the sea; they are frightened because of Him; but He says, "It is I".

R.M.B. Would Psalm 91 help here? Verse 9 says, "Because thou hast made Jehovah, my refuge, the Most High, thy dwelling-place, there shall no evil befall thee". Does it help to see Him as in the abode in John 1, and to carry that forward into chapter 6?

J.T. It does. It is the Person; it is not simply a knowable Person, but a Person that is known: "It is I", One whom you know. They were willing to take Him

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into the ship, and that is the end of it: immediately they were at their destination: "the land to which they went".

W.J.W. How do you view the land to which they were going? What corresponds to it at the present time?

J.T. The movement was in keeping with what the Lord was doing and He helps them, as coming to them, to attain their end. It is said to be "land" in verse 21, but verse 17 says, "they went over the sea to Capernaum". Land, as over against the sea, is sure ground.

The passage in Revelation 2 contemplates the walk of Christ, "in the midst of the seven golden lamps" -- His judicial walk. It is not said that John sees Him walking, he sees Him in the midst of the lamps. He says, "I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle: his head and hair white like white wool, as snow; and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like fine brass, as burning in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters" (chapter 1:13 - 15). That is clearly a judicial garb and attitude. But the Lord says to Ephesus that He is the One that walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps, meaning that He is not only in the midst of them, but He moves about -- as a judge would, in a circuit.

H.P. What is suggested in the seven stars in the right hand?

J.T. They are said to be the angels of the seven assemblies, representatives of the seven assemblies. Our verse, Revelation 2:1, says that He holds these stars; later on it says that He has them. "These things saith he that has ... the seven stars" (chapter 3:1). He is not said to hold them in addressing Sardis, but in addressing Ephesus He is. The public position is still owned and supported of God, but He is walking, nevertheless, in it in those early days. Paul had already said that all they that were in Asia had turned away from him -- from him personally. Something had

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arisen against Paul in that section, and permeated the whole. Now the Lord is saying, I am walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps, meaning that He will see things as they are in the assemblies. He will have first-hand knowledge of everything. He is visiting them, not in open affection, but in a judicial way. For things have already ceased to be just what they should be: there had been a fall, hence He says, "I have against thee" -- the assembly at Ephesus had left its first love.

A.L.B. Does this run parallel with what Peter says, "the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (1 Peter 4:17)?

J.T. It does, exactly.

P.L. Could the Lord walking in Solomon's porch, in winter (John: 10:22,23), be likened to His walk judicially in winter conditions amidst the seven lamps? His feet like fine brass are seen in Revelation 1.

J.T. That is a good connection.

S.S. Ephesus is held responsible as having had the whole counsel of God declared to them.

J.T. Yes. It had been declared to them by Paul, and evidently they had taken it on, too, but now they had left Paul. In the beginning they loved Paul, but their love for him waned, and not only waned, but they turned away from him. It was a question of Paul. It does not say they turned away from the Lord, but their love for Him had waned. Leaving Paul would reflect their reduced love for Christ. Jehovah said to Samuel, "They have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me" (1 Samuel 8:7). The rejection of a servant like Samuel meant the rejection of Jehovah, and rejection of Paul meant rejection of Christ, in principle, at least, so the Lord is taking the matter up.

S.P.F. They did not cease to love the Lord, but "thou hast left thy first love" (verse 4).

J.T. I should not say much about their love, if the Lord says that. If you have left your first love there is not much left. You are on the way to give up

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all. That is why it is judicial; there is something wrong. It is not the mere external question, there is a root there; the enemy had got in. Of course, it does not only refer to Ephesus; what the Lord says bears on the whole period, for He is walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps, right down to our own times, down to Laodicea. It is a very solemn matter that the Lord moves thus even now.

F.W.B. Does that mean that if the Lord is giving light to the assemblies in regard of a matter, it is universal, its bearing being to all the assemblies? He is taking account of it when it is refused in this way.

J.T. Certainly. He gives us to understand that He is taking notice; He has first-hand knowledge of everything. When He comes in in His judicial attitude He judges; His business is to deal with the assemblies fully.

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DIVINE SIGNS

Isaiah 7:14; Isaiah 8:18; Zechariah 3:8; Ezekiel 24:15 - 18,27

These scriptures speak of signs, and in speaking of them my hope is that the Lord will enable me to make a present application. The idea of signs is prevalent throughout Scripture, and bears on our times in the book of Revelation. There were those who sought a sign from the Lord, a sign from heaven, as if there had not been any from Him, whereas He was Himself a sign from the outset, as a Babe; and the works which none other man did, had been done by Him, were every one signs. Yet unbelief and impudence would ask of Him a sign from heaven. His reply was: Hypocrites! For hypocrisy marks those who are unbelieving as to what is before their eyes, what all can see. However, He would give them one, not that which is spoken of in the first scripture, but "the sign of Jonas", that as Jonas was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of man should be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40). The Son of man! Most solemn of signs, and one that spoke volumes as to human guilt for, if He who knew no sin had to enter into death and remain there for three days and three nights, the responsibility must belong to others. The responsibility attached to man, the cause lay in the race. Later He says, "The Son of man is about to be delivered up into the hands of men, and they shall kill him" (Matthew 17:22,23). A most solemn matter, one that is intended to come home with convicting power even in our own time.

As I was saying, the idea of signs comes down into our dispensation, and (as I shall be showing presently at greater length) particularly in the Apocalypse, which is a book of signs: "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him ... ; and he signified it, sending by

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his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw" (Revelation 1:1,2). God gave it to Him, and He humbly takes the mediatorial place as receiving it. Indeed, He says, "of that day or of that hour no one knows, neither the angels who are in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father" (Mark 13:32). But now He has received it -- "which God gave to him". The giving of this Apocalypse to the Son was a great event. But I speak of the word signified. It refers to signs, and we cannot read Revelation intelligently save as we understand signs; each sign is intended to convey an impression, a prophetic impression, indeed, on ourselves, for the book was sent to all the assemblies.

Now, having said so much in an introductory way, I refer to the first scripture. It comes in in a most gracious way, for the house of David in pretended piety had refused a sign, and yet Jehovah spoke directly to Ahaz, showing how false piety may preclude from us the most precious communications and guidance. The house of David was wearying men and now wearying God -- a remarkable charge; and we easily take on this attitude, assuming to have a better knowledge of certain circumstances than God. He says to Ahaz: "Ask for thee a sign from Jehovah thy God; ask for it in the deep, or in the height above". He was ready to do anything in this sense for that house, now failing, although presently to be brightly represented in Hezekiah. What seemed hopeless had a bright result.

I wish you to note that the allusion in the sign is not to God's power, but to power in the virgin; that is to say, in such circumstances of unbelief, indifference and false piety, the allusion is to the virgin state. It is not the only such reference in this prophecy, for later on the virgin daughter of Zion defies the king of Assyria, showing what military power attaches to the virgin state, that is, the state that is unconquered by the world -- a precious commodity, one of the most valuable in our day. We see how it shines in the gospels, but then

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in God's power, for the incoming of the Son of God was a mighty transaction of God; indeed of His own, for the Word became flesh. It was a mighty operation, and the enemy would becloud its significance.

In our scripture it is the virgin's power, and so I touch on that humbly and simply, only to enhance it, touching on it, I trust, holily. It is the virgin's power that is the sign. The babe, indeed, was a sign according to Luke. "This is the sign to you: ye shall find a babe wrapped in swaddling-clothes, and lying in a manger" (Luke 2:12). That was the announcement of the angel to the shepherds. But the sign here is the virgin conceiving and bringing forth a son. In truth it is not a virgin, the proper rendering is the virgin, as if there were only one, and there could be only one in this wonderful transaction. Heaven would not think of another; in the sense conveyed, there could not be another. It is the virgin, one marked off prophetically and in due course here. But then, I am speaking of the quality of the condition, the subjective condition afforded to all, and that is the sign here. She shall bring forth a son and call (she calls) his name Immanuel. Let us think of this for a moment, over against Ahaz and all that marked him as of the house of David, to say nothing of the house of Israel, its wretched confederacy with Syria. Think what confederacies there are about us today religiously -- independent companies joining up, assuming to have virtue in themselves? "Say ye not, A confederacy", the Spirit says in this section. The idea of a confederacy is obvious -- independent companies joining up with independent companies, and all against Jerusalem and the house of David; the house of David itself poor and weak, and represented as unbelieving and pretending to false piety, but still it was the house of David, to which great thoughts and promises attached. So what was needed over against Ahaz's unbelief was this virgin state, this subjective condition, seen strikingly in Mary in Luke 1; and it is

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that which triumphs. The sign here is this condition and the result of it.

Much could be said of Christ's birth. It is the greatest of subjects, His death and resurrection being its counterpart. There could be no death of Christ without the birth of Christ, hence they are bound together. His death is involved, for indeed He "came by water and blood" (1 John 5:6). He had that in mind. Not that death was on Him personally. Never! It is blasphemy to assume that it was. Nobody could take His life from Him, but still He came to die. Others did the killing, alas -- "ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23) -- but He has entered in once for all, into the holy of holies, having obtained an eternal redemption. So that the incarnation and death of Christ stand together -- the first great event being the sign here: the Babe; and not only the Babe, but the virgin state through which He was brought forth. That is what I wish to stress, the virgin condition, the unconquered condition in holiness, that which stands out against all the attacks of the enemy to corrupt. That was available in Mary, and as it is, in a spiritual sense now, available for God, something for Him will be brought forth. "I again travail in birth", says one in true virgin feeling, true motherly feeling, too, "until Christ shall have been formed in you" (Galatians 4:19); and that is what is needed, the formation of Christ, the reproduction of Christ in true formation in the saints. That is surely a sign.

That is all I have to say on that point. I come now to chapter 8, which is a counterpart of the other, that is, the children which God gave to Christ -- without saying anything about a mother. It is now the paternal side. The Assyrian had come up, and he had gone too far. A comfort to us as the enemy is attempting to interfere with the rights of God in His people -- doing it, indeed, succeeding, too; but then the remnant said, "God is with us!" which is "Immanuel" interpreted.

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Let confederacy be made; let the Assyrian come up -- under God he may come up as needed for discipline, but presently he goes too far. He goes "further", reaching "even to the neck"; but it is Immanuel's land. Who can contend with Immanuel? That is the refuge for the remnant now -- Immanuel's land! The enemy knew not what he was doing, he had touched on the rights of God in Christ. We can pray on those lines, and if we do we shall be heard. Hardly anything is of more importance than to pray intelligently. Many prayers are fervent, but with little or no intelligence or faith. Daniel prayed intelligently, he opened books that conveyed the mind of God and read them. Prayer should be on that principle -- "the word of God and prayer" (1 Timothy 4:5).

So that, as we pray intelligently and in faith, we know that we are heard. Daniel knew that he was heard. The angel Gabriel came to answer his prayer -- and make him "skilful of understanding"; and he says, moreover, "thou art greatly beloved" -- all showing that our prayers not only bring answers, but they make us lovable to heaven. But we must bear in mind that even if we pray according to the intelligence which Scripture affords as to the rights of Christ, we must make allowance for the inscrutableness of divine government. God is not obliged to tell us all, nor does He, but as we pray intelligently according to the revealed will of God, we shall be heard. Isaiah 8 is a question of the rights of Immanuel, and when these are touched upon God interferes, and that will ultimately be the end of the enemy's efforts. The remnant say, "It shall not stand: for God is with us". Let us understand that! What is the enemy doing? He knows not: even the virgin daughter of Zion can compete with him and overcome him; how much more Immanuel!

Referring again to our second scripture, the government of God requires that He (Jehovah) should hide His face from the house of Jacob. It is a

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most solemn thing, that God has to hide His face from the house of Jacob. And Immanuel on His side says, "I will look for him" -- true piety, true subjection, too -- "I will wait for Jehovah". Jacob began that note: "I wait for thy salvation, O Jehovah" (Genesis 49:18). Messiah carries the thought forward and it covers our own position. It is a question of waiting upon God. Conditions require that God should hide His face, but not to the Messiah, to Christ, nor to those whom He has given to Christ. What a touching word that is, "the children that Jehovah hath given me"! And what are they to be? "For signs and for wonders in Israel". Is there no present application? There is. Every one of us, those whom God has given to Christ, is a sign, a sign to be understood, too. "The children that Jehovah hath given me". Think of the Lord's feelings of affection in regard of the saints viewed thus! Indeed, this scripture is quoted in the epistle to the Hebrews to bring out the great fact of His humanity -- "I and the children which God has given me". They are for signs and for wonders in Israel! How great it is to be one of them! Let us understand the magnitude of it! It is self-evident; children given to Christ by God are different from all other children.

Now our third scripture is in the book of Zechariah. What is in mind in the passage is the recovery of the priesthood. It has application to our own times. The priesthood has been lost sight of, beclouded by a false priesthood which exists yet, and the high priest, too. I am speaking now of the history of christianity. The whole dispensation became beclouded and discredited -- well-nigh lost in a public sense. This chapter contemplates the recovery of it. Joshua was the high priest, that is, the idea was there, but he "was clothed with filthy garments". Satan was there to prevent what he understood God to be about. He is always ready to defeat what God is about to do. He gathers up by observation what is in the divine mind, and aims to

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defeat it, and one of the greatest features of the recovery in which we now have part is that of priesthood.

In the history of the assembly, the Levites arrogated priesthood to themselves: that is, because one had a gift, or clerical office, he became a priest. This beclouded the whole position. So this chapter is to recover the idea, particularly that of the high priest, for it is heavenly. There is no high priest on earth. "If he were on earth, he would not be a priest" (Hebrews 8:4). I mean, the priesthood in which we have part is a heavenly one, not one that can be attached to things set up here as if they belonged to this world, such as cathedrals and all that. Hebrews is to show that our High Priest, our priesthood, is heavenly. So the passage brings out that Joshua's filthy garments are taken away from him -- and, as typical of what exists today, what rubbish! How unfit to be worn by a true priest! Priestly garments today, such as the world recognises, are unfit for a true priest. True, priestly garments are found in remnant times, as we may see in Ezra and Nehemiah. Nehemiah himself gave five hundred and thirty priests' coats.

Joshua was clothed in filthy garments, as we have noted, but God was coming in sovereignly to change those garments. How happy to see a christian who has worn these filthy garments -- filthy in a spiritual sense -- disrobed of them and clothed not only with true priestly garments, but with such as are called festival garments! Not the dull experience attaching to the clergy, for in truth it is generally dull and heavy, whatever interest and excitement there may be in the public exercise of the clerical office. In itself it is a dull matter, to say the least, nothing festive about it, nothing happy and free; those engaged in it are relatively isolated; in principle above and apart from the laity, there is but little mutual feeling. One great principle of the assembly is mutual feeling and enjoyment in holy things. They sang a hymn -- that is the

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mutual side, not even the Lord, although evidently present, distinguished there. They sang a hymn and went to the mount of Olives. And in the prodigal's case, too, there was the music and the dancing; there were festival robes and festivity according to God. The gracious recovery that He has effected and brought us into involves all this. The most sanctified thought is connected with divine festivity. Such is the blessedness of what we are brought into: the present portion of the saints.

So now Joshua is brought out into his full position. The priesthood is restored; and so the word as you will observe is: "Hear now, Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee -- for they are men of portent", that is, men to be observed as signs. Let this sink into our hearts. The high priest is addressed in a most appealing way. He is not addressed in his rags; he is addressed in his festival robes, in his high priestly garments, for God will have us to understand that there is nothing lost at all. He has recovered in these last days the very best things of this dispensation: not only have we a High Priest in heaven to intercede for us, but One who wears festival robes.

Then the men that sit before Him as His fellows: think of what we are brought into on the priestly line, for we are said to be a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation! We are said to be a priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ -- His fellows, too! He is anointed with the oil of gladness, as we know, above His companions, but still, we are His companions. You will understand what I mean, that God has recovered the very best things for us, what is most holy and blessed, involving spiritual intelligence in what has the character of holy festivity. Is there not happiness in it? Why should young people turn their backs upon it? Some do, alas! old ones, too -- very like the "elder son" in the parable, refusing to go in. The Lord is appealing to

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us as to what has been restored, that we are part of it, and, as such, men to be wondered at. As priests, every one of us is included here. Characteristically, priesthood refers to spiritual men. Such, as we see in our chapter, are signs, over against the worldly priesthood, the accepted one in the world, prevalent throughout christendom. Christians in the true sense are different: they have the Spirit of God, hence anointed, and having taken on the character of Christ, they are the true sons of Aaron. Hence, like Joshua's fellows, "they are men of portent" in these last days.

Finally I come to Ezekiel. He has as much to say of this thought as any of the prophets, and what you find in this case, as may be shown in others, is what God would bring about so as to reveal to anyone His mind. For indeed, it is said in Amos 3:7: "the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets". God is reviving the great prophetic thought amongst us, and this among other things implies that there should be increase in the number of prophets. "Would God", says Moses, "that all the Lord's people were prophets" (Numbers 11:29). Moses had no jealousy about that. The more prophets we have, the more effective our testimony will be. Christianity implies community, what one has we all have. And so, as I remarked, God reveals His mind to His servants the prophets. If one says a prophetic word in the ministry meeting, you may be sure the Lord has given it to him. He is ready to give a word to anyone available. The idea is that as the Child is taken into one's arms -- as Christ is taken into one's arms -- communications come as they did to Simeon (Luke 2). As we are told in the instruction covering this matter, a revelation may come to "another sitting there", as one is speaking (1 Corinthians 14:30). If we are accustomed to the prophetic idea we shall understand. To be "among the prophets" is to be coveted. The gift of prophecy is one we are told to covet, and you can see the divine import of it.

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As one is faithful, God will make him His friend, and will use him to convey His mind to His people.

In view of this, however, I am to have my part in the sorrow, so that the end of the prophetic word might be reached. That is a most solemn thing. If Elijah prayed for a drought, he had to experience the drought himself. He prayed twice, but between the answers to his prayers there was a sorrowful time, and he had to go through it. Included in the prophet's lot is persecution. Stephen says: "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?" (Acts 7:52). There was not a prophet that escaped persecution. So there is no attraction for the flesh in this service, but there is great attraction for the spiritual, for what can be greater than to know the mind of God, to be a friend of God, and to have the power to communicate the mind of God?

Now in Ezekiel you have all this. He had to lie, for instance, for three hundred and ninety days on one side; and then forty days on the other -- to bear the iniquity of the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Think of the food he had to eat, too -- such suffering! We get him acting the part of a captive, too, to speak to God's people, also as laying siege against Jerusalem -- in which he was "a sign to the house of Israel". Sometimes, as in chapter 24:19, they came to him saying, "Wilt thou not tell us what these things are to us?" Well, I am sure he was thankful to be asked such a question. At another time his word, however powerful, was like a song that they forgot -- it had no effect upon their souls. All this is very searching as to the state of the saints, but still, one important thing about the prophets is that they represent the wonderful patience of God. And morally nothing could be much greater than to be an expression of that, to be a sign of the long-suffering of God. I cannot be this if I am recognising natural feelings or cultivating natural things. And this is the point in our chapter, that Ezekiel has to suffer the loss of his wife, who was suddenly taken away, and

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God says: You must not mourn, you must not put on such appearances as mourning requires; a most affecting thing. It was no small matter to Ezekiel, no ordinary bereavement. It was the desire of his eyes taken away with a stroke. "Thus", Jehovah says, "Ezekiel shall be unto you a sign" (Ezekiel 24:24).

I speak thus so that we may be solemnised, for our position is most solemn. We are at the end of the times, and they require energy, they require patience in suffering. God is saying to me in this scripture that, if I am to be a sign in these matters I am to learn to deny natural claims, not to cultivate and live in natural things. I must learn to deny them. It is no question of what is righteous in these relationships, this must be recognised; but how many of us live almost entirely in what is natural! But then we are not signs in that. There is little or no difference between us and the world. There is not a sign in it, not a thing to promote fear and faith in those around us. Ezekiel, as I said, has to deny these natural affections, and the last verse says: "In that day shall thy mouth be opened to him that is escaped, and thou shalt speak, and be no more dumb. So shalt thou be a sign unto them; and they shall know that I am Jehovah". It is worth our while, for God is sure to take a man up who denies himself of what is merely natural, who refuses to live in what is natural. God says: I will honour you in that day. I will open your mouth and you shall be a sign and they shall know that I am Jehovah.

May God bless His word to us.

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AMENABILITY TO ADJUSTMENT

John 2:3 - 5,12; Luke 10:38 - 42; Matthew 16:22 - 24

What is in mind in reading these scriptures, speaking as they do of well-known persons, is to show how the work of God is currently operative. There is amenableness to immediate adjustment where will has been at work. Adjustment in divine things is always necessitated by will or ignorance in us. From the divine side there is no need of adjustment. The wonderful economy into which we are brought remains in perfect love as it was when first inaugurated; nor can there be any change. As indeed in the physical universe, things go on; all runs on unalterably according to divine design and purpose.

It is in the moral system that adjustment is needed, but only from our side. From God's side all is perfect. And so where in any way there is need for regulation spiritually, we may at once and with certainty put it down to the action of our wills. I may remark at this point that the people of God and men generally -- but I speak particularly to the saints of God -- are too prone to assume that things are optional and that at any time, however long will may have persisted, one may change his mind. That is, it is always regarded as optional with us. In view of the dispensation into which we have come, it is so generally, for God is waiting for any returning prodigal, but with all that, the government of God stands and is interwoven in the dispensation, although we rightly speak of it as one of grace. Grace reigns, but the government of God also subsists. We find, therefore, that He speaks in the Scripture of fixedness, whether for good or for evil, in persons during their lives here; fixedness, of course, lies with those of us who are true believers in Christ.

The Scriptures show unmistakably that fixedness lies with the believer from the standpoint of divine counsel,

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but then the idea must be extended to us in regard of our part and place in relation to the tabernacle, or the testimony; and what Scripture makes plain is that in the working of will, God may fix a position, even whilst believers are here in the body. This is one of the most solemn things to be considered. It is one of the most blessed things, one of the most assuring thoughts as to the true believer from the standpoint of his eternal portion, but from the standpoint of his position in relation to the testimony here, it may become a most solemn matter. The abandonment by anyone of his place in that testimony may mean fixedness from the divine side, that is, if you will have it so, God will give you to understand that it is as you wish it.

Take, for instance, in the corrective epistle (1 Corinthians), which treats of the relation of the saints to the testimony, that is to say, whether they are in it or out of it, we have the statement: "But if any be ignorant" (chapter 14:38). Let him be that! But, you might say, that is not in keeping with grace. But God would remind us that, while we may think things are optional on our side, they are not so. Even in regard of repentance, God opens the door for it, grants it, and this makes man's position extremely solemn, more so than most of us have realised. God fixes things in this sense, not only in regard of the unsaved, but in regard of the saints, and, as I said, it is a most solemn consideration. That things are fixed in regard of the unsaved there can be no question. "But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost" (2 Corinthians 4:3). And again, "Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still ..." (Revelation 22:11). The Spirit says these things. God is fixing the matter in the lifetime of ignorant, unrighteous, and filthy persons. God would have us to understand that we have to do with Him and that He is a consuming fire, and that He has His own way. His government is perfectly compatible with His grace. As His government

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is disregarded, grace must be futile. The government of God supports His grace, and gives us to understand that God is not mocked.

The corrective epistle I have alluded to speaks of certain saints who partook of the Lord's supper thus: "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). They were misbehaving in relation to the Lord's supper, and God was disciplining them in this extreme way, some of them losing their places in the testimony. The only remedy now was to take them away through death. John says of such cases, "I do not say of that that he should make a request" (1 John 5:16). In the present paralysed condition of the christian profession persons regarded as "lost" cannot be easily identified, but that they exist Scripture makes plain. And God would have us all to make our "calling and election sure" (2 Peter 1:10), that we may not be trifling with Him, assuming that we can take things on or leave them; assuming that, although we have eyes to see, we are justified in not seeing! God would say, Why not have eyes to see? I give them to you! Everyone who is born of God ought to be able to see the things of God. "Except any one be born anew he cannot see ..." (John 3:3), but if he is, he can! The work of God enables us to see things and if we do not, let us not excuse ourselves. Adjustment is always on our side. Do not blame God if things are seen by others and you do not see them. If you continue to say, I do not see, the will is at work. Your position as outside the testimony may become fixed -- a most solemn thing.

Now I have said all that because it enters into these scriptures. They are most honourable saints that I have read of here. The first is the Lord's own mother. No doubt each saint has his own experience to a point, but in general there is a similitude in our experiences. No other, however, had Mary's maternal experiences; no other person could have them. She began with a

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most admirable attitude as Scripture presents it to us. She says to the angel, "Be it to me according to thy word" (Luke 1:38). She is subject, but what I want to point out is that in spite of her great advantages and undoubted spirituality, at this particular point she allows natural feeling to actuate her, and that immediately and directly in relation to Christ. In His very presence she allowed natural feeling to actuate her. She says, "They have no wine". Well, you say, there is not much out of the way in that. Indeed, some might say, There should be no wine! But Mary says, "They have no wine". It was deficient. Did the Lord Jesus not know? Yes, He did. She is calling into question His personal knowledge of the position. He was invited there, and was there with His disciples, evidently happily, not in a perfunctory way. He knew, He was interested in it, too. He was perfectly cognisant of what was, and what was not, there. As I said, some would say, in answer to Mary's remark, It is well it is deficient. Anyone who says that is entirely out of the mind of the Lord. 'Prohibition' as it is advocated in the world is an attack on Him.

But the Lord had something more to deal with than the deficiency of wine at that marriage. And so it is constantly; something more than the absence of the wine of joy has to be dealt with, and that is fleshly insinuation, fleshly assumption on natural grounds -- the very things that make the wine deficient in a spiritual sense. Anyone with a sense of superior knowledge to Christ is the person who is making the wine deficient. The Lord deals with that, He puts that right in the most effective way, and what is so beautiful is that Mary is amenable to His correction. Amenability to immediate adjustment is of great importance; for if I continue on in the action of my will, God would say, Let it be that way! Let him be ignorant! Let him be filthy still! How solemn are those words!

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Not so with Mary. The Lord says, "What have I to do with thee, woman?" He disregards the natural claim which she put forward, and calls her "woman". She might have spoken loudly and rebelled, but the power of the work of God in her was immediately ready to subdue all that. Not a whimper, not a complaint, but immediate adjustment. She immediately says to the servants, "Whatever he may say to you, do". Mary is submissive, and thus adjusted. Some are as ready to lead in error as in truth, more so. Had Mary rebelled, the servants might have done so, too, but there was perfect adjustment, and the wine of joy -- the best possible -- comes from the hand of Christ. I am speaking now spiritually, "... wine, which cheers God and man" (Judges 9:13), and the occasion intended to be a joyous one, was made that by the Lord. He cannot make it that if there is insubordination: "... selfwill is as iniquity and idolatry" (1 Samuel 15:23). If it continue, God may fix it, as I said.

Now what shows that there was complete adjustment is in verse 12: "After this he descended to Capernaum, he and his mother and his brethren and his disciples; and there they abode not many days". That is, 'the meeting', as it were, goes on; there is no estrangement, there is no undercurrent of feeling; the matter is settled. His mother and He are on good terms and His brethren and His disciples -- a combination. It says, "not many days". Really it is a Jewish picture, but enough to indicate that the matter is settled, and no matter is settled spiritually unless the one involved is happily in the company of Jesus and His disciples and His brethren. How can any difficulty as to me be settled if I am not truly in the fellowship? If I am not in the fellowship, where am I? If I have washed my robes I am entitled to partake of the tree of life and enter by the gates into the city. "After this he descended to Capernaum, he and his mother and his brethren and his disciples; and there they abode not many days",

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but He abode there some days. It brings out the principle; the matter was settled not only between Him and His mother, but she is in the circle, she is in the fellowship. Why should she not be in the fellowship? Had she retained an unruly attitude, she would have been outside, but she is in it. It is open to all those who wash their robes.

I go on to Martha -- another notable character, a believer unquestionably. She opens her house to Christ; she calls Him "Lord", too. She had a house and she opened it to Christ and respected Him outwardly, but these are only initial thoughts -- the opening of my house to the Lord in this sense and addressing Him as Lord. Depth of right feeling is often absent in these forms. Doubtless she knew Him before, but in calling Him "Lord" she is attacking Him. Think of the combination that is in us! She has a house and is opening it to the Lord, but she is attacking Him. She says, "Lord, dost thou not care that my sister has left me to serve alone?" You can understand how she was changing her mind about the Lord. You can understand that the flesh was rising and her appreciation of Christ was lowering; her valuation of Christ was diminishing. You can see it. The enemy is at work. She is thinking specially of Mary, of course. She does not perhaps mean to attack the Lord, but she is doing it! We must take account of our whole bearing in any issue; what is the bearing of my attitude in regard of Christ, in regard of the saints, in regard of the fellowship? Is it discrediting the truth, is it discrediting the fellowship, is it discrediting the assembly? I have to thus challenge myself. She was discrediting Christ, although the point of her words was toward Mary. "Lord, dost thou not care that my sister has left me to serve alone?"

The Spirit of God has in Luke one of the most gracious of all writers, and yet he does not indicate that Martha got help at this time. He is concerned about

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justifying Mary. He leaves us in doubt as regards Martha. Sometimes one inquires of a brother as to a certain one in his locality. If he says, I have not much to say about him, then doubt as to him arises. Here Luke does not give us an inkling as to Martha receiving help -- he leaves her. John brings her in. I suppose John would say, Luke did not say a word in Martha's favour, but time has wrought and I have something good to say about Martha.

John is the disciple whom Jesus loved, and he makes the most of what is good; still, he is at times faithfully severe. Luke gives a wonderful picture of Mary, the mother of the Lord, but John had to say certain things against her. You know what the Lord on the cross said about His mother. He saw John there and He saw His mother there, and He said, "Woman, behold thy son", and He said to John, "Behold thy mother" (John 19:26,27). And John took her to his own home. She was in this sense John's mother; she was in that relation with him. She was his mother, and he her son, by the authoritative appointment of the Lord; and yet John tells us what I have just read about her. He does not hide it, and Luke does not tell us anything about Martha to encourage us. He shows her will at work, but John shows that God was working with her.

In the eleventh and twelfth chapters of John you will note what time does, and how the Lord never withdraws His eye from one of His own. He has watched Martha day and night. We read of the Lord Jesus going out from Jerusalem and spending the night at Bethany. What conversations He may have had with the three at Bethany we cannot say, but the first mention in John is that the Lord Jesus loved them all. He loved those three. I am speaking now of what, under God, time may effect. Time may shut Him out for years, but this did not mark Bethany. It is quite clear that He always had access there, and that is the secret of the result we see in chapter 12. True recovery where

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needed is in leaving the door open for the Lord to come in. Never close it! John would indicate that a link existed between the Lord and Bethany, and the scene in chapter 12:1 - 3 is the outcome of it. The Lord made Martha, Mary, and Lazarus what they were as seen there. Thus we must be encouraged to leave the door open to Christ.

"Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus" (John 11:5). John puts her first. Adjustment by the Lord makes her effectively what she was at the beginning -- she was serving. She had been complaining to the Lord about her sister: "Lord, dost thou not care that my sister has left me to serve alone?" But now she is serving alone according to John's account, and she is not complaining at all. Mary is still sitting at the feet of Jesus and Martha serves. That is to say, what she began with she finishes with, and the Lord makes her to serve without complaint and to serve on a great occasion. To know how to serve in the assembly is a great matter and one of the great ends of the Lord's teaching. I do not come with a hymn all ready. I wait to see what is needed. To know how to serve on a great occasion is one of the greatest things. The Lord is spoken of as "the shepherd and overseer of your souls" (1 Peter 2:25), and has access to us at all times; and as He does, in time He brings about results so that I am able to serve on a great occasion. Very few of us know how to serve in the assembly. But the Lord teaches us as we make way for Him. We must follow the example He has given. Learn from Me, He says. She had served complainingly, but now happily; she is serving well and on a great occasion. The occasion would not be what it was without her.

Then finally, in regard of Peter, I want to show how will works in the most spiritual people. It is striking that even the most spiritual and honoured servants were not free from failure -- Joseph, Moses, Samuel, David, Paul, Peter. Well, you say, that gives me

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encouragement that I have not been doing so badly. The point is, that however spiritual you may be, you are exposed to this, and amenable to the influence of the devil when the thing is thrust upon you suddenly -- when you are confronted with something that has not been presented before. Something happens, and I am not ready for it. I may be a spiritual man -- Peter was, but he was not ready for what the Lord said, as recorded in Matthew 16:21. He was evidently ready for the revelation made to him a short time before. When the Lord asked His disciples what people were saying about Him, and what they would say about Him, Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16); but verse 21 is a different matter, as you will observe. "From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples that he must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised". That was new to Peter apparently. He had done well in the previous incident, and the Lord owned him fully -- changing his name. No one could be more distinguished in that sense, but this matter, brought suddenly to him, finds him unready, and he falls under the influence of the devil. In fact, the Lord says to him, "Get away behind me, Satan". Thus, let no one hide himself in a false security, that he is spiritual. Something will come up that you do not expect. No one who is not in constant self-judgment is immune from the devil's influence. Peter would have caused the Lord to turn aside. He was speaking as a man governed by natural sensibilities. The enemy thus got influence for the moment over this great servant. He was professing great consideration for Christ, but it was just nature. The Lord, turning round, said, "Get away behind me, Satan". We do well to face this. We are in critical times and Satan is at our doors. I cannot remember a time when Satan was so active, and the brethren exposing themselves to his activities -- allowing

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personal feelings to control them. The Lord says, "Get away behind me, Satan; thou art an offence to me, for thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men".

How perfectly adjustment came about with Peter and how he reached the end, the desired end, you all know. When he was old, he stretched forth his hands in perfect submission, and another carried him to the very thing that he was here asking the Lord to save Himself from. He had said to the Lord, "This shall in no wise be unto thee" -- that is, that He must not die. But Peter came to it, not only that Christ must die to do the will of God, but himself also.

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GARMENTS SUITABLE FOR ASSEMBLY SERVICE

2 Corinthians 3:17,18; Luke 24:1 - 4; Luke 9:28 - 31

J.T. What is in mind is the dress which the saints take on in assembly service, suggested in the word as to Moses and Elias, of whom it is said that they appeared in glory and spoke with Jesus. I thought that there would be help for us in taking up the verses in 2 Corinthians, which speak about the saints becoming glorious by the ministry of Christ, "transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". As coming together in assembly, we take on this glory: we are capable of it as having the Holy Spirit and knowing redemption.

The types show us that the saints put on priestly garments: that is the thought that runs through what is spoken of as to Aaron and his sons; in Exodus 28:40,41 it is said, "And for Aaron's sons thou shalt make vests; and thou shalt make for them girdles; and high caps shalt thou make for them, for glory and for ornament. And thou shalt clothe with them Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and hallow them, that they may serve me as priests". We have there clearly set out that the service of God is to be carried on in garments of glory and ornament; and I thought that we may learn from these verses in 2 Corinthians how the Lord's present service enters into this and promotes it as we are together, we being seen in such dress as is suitable for assembly service.

J.H.B. Would you say a little that would help us by way of introduction as to what is meant by glory in this connection? We have been more accustomed to think of it as relating to the future condition in which we shall be, but would you tell us what it means as taken on at the present time?

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J.T. It is new covenant glory in the passage read in 2 Corinthians. The glory seen in Moses and Elias would more accurately be described as heavenly glory: they represent the saints as in heaven; but new covenant glory is more what meets us initially and becomes effective in us down here. 2 Corinthians 3 is full of the thought. It speaks of "a glory which is annulled" in verse 7, that is, the glory of the first covenant as over against the glory of which we are speaking, and of which it is said: "How shall not rather the ministry of the Spirit subsist in glory? For if the ministry of condemnation be glory, much rather the ministry of righteousness abounds in glory. For also that which was glorified is not glorified in this respect, on account of the surpassing glory". We have there a remarkable volume in the thought of glory.

In chapter 4:16,17 we have a further thought which refers to the heavenly side: "Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day. For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory". That is another thing, but it is the weight of it. This new covenant glory is specially referred to as taken on now; it is ministered to us. The other is the outcome of affliction, what is wrought in us through affliction or discipline: it "works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory". So that our prospect is, in that relation, an eternal weight of glory. We are being made ready for it; it is in connection with affliction; but the new covenant glory is what is ministered to us through Christ: "by the Lord the Spirit". It is a question, therefore, whether we can take it on as coming into the environment of it in the assembly. It is a thought that is always present with the believer, but as come together on the great occasion, that is to say, in assembly for the service of God, it is to shine peculiarly; and the Lord being there and the Spirit (divine Persons all

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present and active with us) it is where it is seen peculiarly.

P.J.B. Is it connected with the thought of liberty?

J.T. It says so here: "the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". That is, the saints sit together in spiritual liberty, so that we are all looking at the glory of the Lord with unveiled face. The allusion is to Moses' face shining as he came down from the mount; it is glory relating to the new covenant, peculiarly as effectuating it. The thought in Christ being the Mediator of it is initially that He died to make it a fact; but as "the Lord the Spirit" it is His present activity, His present service, so as to make it effective in us. First it is the glory of the Lord; but the parenthesis, verses 7 to 16, contemplates it as the glory of the Spirit, too -- "the ministry of the Spirit" which subsists "in glory".

J.H.B. I am thinking we need to get a clear thought as to what "glory" means. You referred to 'dress' connecting that with glory.

J.T. Well, the Lord Jesus is said to be the "Lord of glory", which would include all glories; He effectuates all glory. God also is said to be the "God of glory", and the "Father of glory", so it is a wide thought. The "Lord of glory", as applying to Christ, means that He effectuates everything. For instance, He says to His Father: "the glory which thou hast given me I have given them" (John 17:22) -- how He did that is not said there; the fact is stated that He gives it, but it is a procedure, a service: it involves His authority; that we are made amenable so as to take it on. So here, it is "the glory of the Lord", not the "Lord of glory"; it is "the Lord the Spirit", but "the glory of the Lord". "The Lord the Spirit" would mean, I think, two divine Persons effectuating the thing. The glory that shines in Him as effectuating the covenant is to be imparted to us, taken on by us, on this principle that we are looking at Him, and He and the Spirit are operating

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in us accordingly. That is the objective idea in it, we looking at Him, His face being unveiled; then the result is "even as by the Lord the Spirit".

I think if we take in the thought that He is the Lord of glory we shall see that all glory is under His hand, and He effectuates all. There is a vast range of glory as we see in 1 Corinthians 15"different is the glory of the heavenly, different that of the earthly", etc. Israel has its glory; even the nations have their glory, they bring it to the city in Revelation 21. The Lord imparts glory to all of them, but this in 2 Corinthians is a particular glory, that of the new covenant; not the new covenant as applying to Israel, for that would be on a lower ground. We have the terms of it in Jeremiah and Hebrews 8 and 10, the exact terms of it for Israel; that is on lower ground, it is divine teaching, they will be all taught of God in that, in the measure in which they need to be taught as here below. Also, "Their sins and iniquities will I remember no more". That is not so great a ministry as we have here. The Lord will come in and teach Israel what they need to know as a nation here on earth, and He will teach them forgiveness, too. He will minister that to them. But He takes that same instrument called the new covenant, and ministers it to us. It is not made with us at all, but He lifts it up to a higher plane. He is not simply the Teacher of the new covenant, but He is the Spirit of it: "Now the Lord is the Spirit" -- that is the thing to get hold of.

Then, it is the glory of the Lord that we are to take on; we look at His glory and He works in us at the same time by the Spirit. "The Lord the Spirit" implies that He is obliged to take up authority with us because we are so refractory naturally. He needs to use His authority. One could cite many instances of the saints missing this glory because their wills are active. The Lord uses His authority that we might take on glory. No self-willed brother or sister can take on the glory

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of the Lord, because He carries it out as we are in subjection. What I have said at some length conveys the truth, I am sure.

G.Y. Is this seen in local companies, or is it seen in the saints as a whole?

J.T. "We all" is a great thought; it is not "ye all", notice. Wherever the apostle says "ye all" he usually refers to local companies, but here it is "We all"; it is the general thought. It would mean too that this may take place, not only when we are together in assembly, but at any time; that is, it is a general thought. The Lord is carrying on this service with us always, only it is specially effective when we are together in assembly, when we are most ready for it.

J.C.S. Does the love of God, made effective in our souls, result in the outshining of the covenant glory in the saints?

J.T. That is the idea. Romans is more precise as to the Spirit's action: "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us" (chapter 5:5). That is a precise statement, but here the Spirit is combined with the Lord -- "the Lord the Spirit". Nothing is said here about our receiving the Holy Spirit, or about the love of God being shed abroad in our hearts, the instruction is set in relation to Exodus 34, where Moses came down from the mount with shining face. Aaron and the elders were there, and all Israel; and they were afraid of Moses, they would not go near him. If I am in that state of soul I shall never take on the glory. So Moses graciously got them to turn to him and to come to him; of course, he had to put the veil over his face, but the glory was there. The lesson for us is that we are not to be afraid of the Lord. He is our Lord, and certainly will not brook our wills; but still, He is "the Lord the Spirit", and the Spirit is most gracious, for evidently "the Lord the Spirit" involves that the Holy Spirit is in the service. So that there is authority and extreme graciousness

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at the same time in the process. Hence the saints are brought under, and the more subject I am in looking at that glory, the more I can fix my eye on it, and the more the transformation goes on.

W.S.S. With regard to Moses, it says his face shone because of the Lord talking with him. There would be an unfolding of glory to Moses, and a corresponding result was seen in Moses. Does that illustrate what you have in mind?

J.T. Quite so, but they were afraid of him. Here we have the contrast to that: "we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face" -- we are not afraid of Him. A truly subject person does not need to be afraid of Him; he has full liberty to look at the Lord.

R.S.C. Do we have an example in Stephen? We are told that they saw his face as the face of an angel, and later he was looking up into heaven.

J.T. That helps as an illustration of what we are saying. He is a person capable of taking on from the environment in which he is. They saw his face "as the face of an angel" at the beginning of his address, which probably alludes to judicial glory, but it is glory, nevertheless. At the end of his address he looks into heaven; it does not say anything about his face being as the face of an angel there, because it is on a higher plane than at the beginning, where it was judicial; there his face was as the face of an angel. There is not much of judicial glory in the world's courts, but there was here in the midst of an adverse council -- we are told they saw it. But having delivered his address (which is judicial throughout) and finally convicted them -- they are convicted, "cut to the heart" -- he looks into the heavens and says, "Lo, I behold the heavens opened", and the Spirit tells us that "he saw the glory of God, and Jesus ..." (Acts 7:54,56). I believe this is covenant glory; that is, it was what God was ready to minister to Israel at that time, the glory of the new covenant.

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In the first six chapters of Acts we have God's overtures to Israel; He was ready to minister to them the new covenant. Jesus was there. They were said to be "the sons ... of the covenant" (chapter 3:25), and God was ministering it to them; the ministry of the twelve was really that in principle, but the Jews did not want it, they refused it. Hence, Stephen's face is as the face of an angel at first because it is a question of what is judicial. They are going to be set aside and deprived of all that was theirs for the moment, but then, Stephen looked up into the heavens, and the Spirit tells us that he saw the glory of God; it is up there! The covenant was not abrogated, it still holds good; Stephen saw Jesus standing there, and Paul is alluding to what took place afterwards, that is, the present ministry of the new covenant, lifted on to a higher plane, and now ministered to ourselves -- gentile believers. It can only be ministered by One who is the Spirit of it. It is not only divine teaching and forgiveness of sins, but it is a ministry of divine glory and of love.

J.C.S. Would you say that in the refusal of the light that was shining in Stephen's face there was a postponement (as regards Israel) of the covenant glory, which is taken up in a far greater and more powerful way in regard to us?

J.T. That is it exactly, so we have Jesus in heaven, and the glory up there -- no longer in Jerusalem. All is secured, it is perfectly intact up there; but who is going to get the good of it? What happened to Stephen's own face? He reflected morally what belongs to the new covenant, as he knelt down and prayed for his persecutors as they were putting him to death. That is the spirit of the new covenant, and that spirit is carried through now in Christ, with ourselves.

W.S.S. Does that come out in 2 Corinthians 4:10: "always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our

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body"? Would the feature of the covenant glory shine out there in the life of Jesus being manifested?

J.T. Quite so. "We have this treasure in earthen vessels" -- christians have it in earthen vessels, especially Paul; so the more he was disciplined, the more the light shone, and that is how the thing is carried on among us. It is in those who are subject to the discipline of the Lord, accepting our bodies as mortal, that the light is seen.

W.S.S. "Therefore, having this ministry ... we faint not" (chapter 4:1). This ministry, therefore, enables us to go on in our pathway in the way which the chapter develops.

J.T. So the gospel Paul preached really took that character; so what we are speaking of enters into christian testimony. "The radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ" (chapter 4: 4).

A.G. "Beholding ... the glory of the Lord". Is that moral glory connected with His own Person, or is it beholding Him in His present position in glory -- or is it both?

J.T. I think the allusion is to Moses coming down from the mountain. He was the mediator of the covenant. Israel was afraid to look at him, but we are not afraid to look at Christ. That is the point the apostle is making: "we all, looking on the glory ... with unveiled face". We can look at Him; we are not afraid of Him. It refers really to the glory resulting from the effectuation of the new covenant. He has died to make the love of God effective for us, and now He makes it effective in our souls, and thus we are not afraid to look at Him. There are many who are really afraid; they are not at liberty with the Lord and hence unable to look at this wonderful thing -- thus the transformation is not taking place. The great thing is to look at the glory. There is what Christ has done in dying for us, and is doing now in heaven, having sent down the Spirit, who sheds the love of God in our hearts. "The

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Lord the Spirit" is a combined thought; I am able by the Spirit to look at the glory, and as I do so I take on the glory; the Spirit makes it operative in my soul.

A.P. Does the veil apply to us?

J.T. It was on Moses' face; now the veil is on Israel's heart, and when their heart turns to the Lord the veil will be taken away; but the allusion in verse 18 is to the face of Jesus having no veil on it.

Ques. Exodus 34 says that "Moses called to them", and they turned to him. Is that something like the service of the apostle here, having in view what had taken place in the first epistle?

J.T. It really enters into the two epistles, particularly the first. The apostle was trying to get them right, trying to get them in proper relations with himself, which, of course, means proper relations with Christ, for there was really a turning away from Christ among the Corinthians; and the apostle was endeavouring to bring them back to right relations with Christ. Here he is urging them to look at Him in this glorious way. How attractive it is! There is authority there, but it is the shining out of God in the new covenant -- "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

H.L.T. In normal conditions do we get enlargement of this in the morning meeting?

J.T. It is going on normally all the time, as we are amenable to the Lord. Of course, a man who is sitting at a desk writing an invoice cannot be looking at the glory, but there are opportunities even in such circumstances when we ought to be able to do it. Think of it as often and as long as you can! That is how the process goes on. Then when we come together on the great occasion we are ready for it; everything is in our favour then: we all are to look at the glory then -- together.

R.S.C. Would you suggest that it should be the habit of our souls to look in that way, and as we look we should have the spirit of Stephen developed in us,

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and also the dress that is suitable for the service of God?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. We need to dress for the care meeting; and for the disciplinary meeting -- the saints need to be in judicial dress for that. We all know how in court they change their dress according to the character of the occasion. The disciplinary meeting is a solemn matter; but this of which we are talking is the great love occasion, and the Lord wants us to be with Him in suitable attire -- "in glory". So it is "from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". He is serving us to that end.

B.P. Did the Lord unfold the glory of the covenant to the two going to Emmaus?

J.T. No doubt. What glory shone out! One would love to have listened to what He said about Moses! Exodus is full of glory: it is a remarkable book for glory. In the instance to which you allude the Lord would cause it to shine. He made their hearts to burn; so that is the idea of it, but then He went in with them, and sat down at table, and took the bread and blessed it, and having broken it, gave it to them, and then vanished. The truth is now out; that is to say, there is the Person in His true garments. He is the One who has effected the new covenant; and they returned to Jerusalem immediately, and were in the assembly as He came in. The glory, we may say, was in His face, only all were not ready for it.

W.H.U. With reference to the garments of glory and beauty of which you spoke, in Exodus, is that distinctiveness in a priestly way?

J.T. That is the idea. God specified the kind of garments needed. Exodus 28, the whole chapter, except the verses read, refers to Aaron himself, but in introducing the subject at the beginning of the chapter, verse 4, reference is made to Aaron and his sons, showing they are never out of view; they serve with him. In chapter 29 they are consecrated with him. So what we

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are considering now is the kind of dress that is suitable to us as of Aaron's house.

J.S.C. What is the thought of "from glory to glory"?

J.T. The fulness and richness of it. We are not limited. The assembly is the doorway into infinitude. We are now dealing with the introduction: but this leads on to glory to God "in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages" (Ephesians 3:21). That takes us further on than this, but it is the continuation of this. So we want to get the idea of dress at the start, to take on the idea of glory. We read in Luke that two men appeared in glory speaking with Jesus.

J.T.C. There are three glories mentioned in John 17, and one has special reference to the assembly, a glory that is given by the Lord Himself.

J.T. I was thinking of that. John 17:5 refers to a glory that is incommunicable -- but then the Lord says, "the glory which thou hast given me I have given them". I have no doubt that is sonship, but I do not like to specify too much. In imparting to them the spirit of sonship, He had to go through a process with them. How am I brought into sonship? I have to be told I am a son, but that does not really bring me into it characteristically. Because I am a son, the Spirit of God's Son is given to me, crying, Abba, Father. That is the process. He imparts sonship glory to us through a process. Well, how does He impart covenant glory, which is a lower glory than sonship? It is through a process -- "even as by the Lord the Spirit", that is, I have to be subject. He exercises His authority over me. There is more than authority, there is the Spirit's power in my soul operating at the same time. That is the practical way of looking at it. Divine Persons are operating to this end. Authority must be there, and the Spirit operating in my soul, shedding abroad the love of God there.

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F.C. In the last few verses of Acts 7 we read of how Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", and then kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". Would that be a concrete case of one who took on the glory as a witness?

J.T. That is an excellent example of it. That is how Jesus effected the covenant; He died for the people so that their sins should be remitted and God's law written in their hearts; for us that God's love should be effective in our hearts.

J.H.B. So this glory, taken on by the saints now, is what only spiritual persons see and recognise?

J.T. Quite so. We realised liberty in our spirits in assembly here this morning. The saints really do take on glory. Of course, it is not the physical thing; but our countenances do change: we are moved inwardly and there is an outward effect.

W.S.S. One has often seen the faces of the brethren shine.

J.T. I have, I am sure. The whole scene becomes glorious. "In his temple doth every one say, Glory!" (Psalm 29:9).

W.S.S. There is to be a practical realisation of it in which we can rejoice.

J.T. As soon as what I am inwardly begins to be amplified by a touch, maybe some hymn of thanksgiving, my whole being is moved spiritually. That is the thought. If everyone is like that, you have a scene of glory.

C.D.L. What do you understand by "according to the same image"?

J.T. It is Christ's image we are transformed to, but, being that, it is a similarising thought, affecting each of us, so that we are all made alike. I think it is that. A certain sameness is effected in the saints; we are all alike in one sense, yet each has his distinctiveness.

Rem. Gideon saw that in his brothers.

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J.T. That is an illustration of it. One often refers to that feelingly as illustrating the way the Lord views His brethren. What kind of a man was Stephen? Suppose you asked that of Saul! He said later, "Lord ... when the blood of thy witness Stephen was shed, I also myself was standing by" (Acts 22:19,20). Anyone might say to Saul, What sort of a man was he? What did you see? What did the Midianitish kings see in Gideon's brethren? They saw them like him, every one like the son of a king. So with Stephen: he was like Christ. No one would be more feeling about it than Paul. He saw Christ there: it was his first great view of Christ as seen in that martyr.

W.S.S. It practically illustrates the passage in 2 Corinthians 4 -- the life of Jesus being manifested.

J.T. So we were speaking of different glories. Judicial glory is an important glory which Stephen represented at the beginning of his address, but at the end it is covenant glory that shines: that is, he was like Jesus towards his murderers, asking forgiveness for them.

Ques. Do we only get the gain of this by "beholding"?

J.T. By being able to fix our eyes on this glory.

A.P. What is the liberty referred to? "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". Liberty for what?

J.T. As participating in it you are able to name it; the thing itself is something. It is not simply liberty to do something. Christian liberty is something real: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free" (Galatians 5:1). That is something, but I think the application would be as we are sitting together in assembly; we are in holy liberty, the Spirit of God permeating us.

A.P. Would it be liberty with the Lord?

J.T. Yes, and with one another. The Spirit of the Lord is not repressive save of our wills, but releases

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what is of God in us. Every fibre of good is active in that liberty.

W.S.S. There is an entire absence of legal feeling.

J.T. Yes, you can understand how liberated the two at Emmaus were! They say, We must get to where that is to be enjoyed. They went off to Jerusalem immediately.

J.H.B. What is your thought as to Luke 24:1 - 4, where we get the fact that when they came to the sepulchre two men suddenly stood by them in shining raiment?

J.T. It is to augment what we have been saying in relation to the idea of liberty, and the glory into which we come through the ministry of the new covenant, as taking on glory. We see how this was in the divine mind at the resurrection of Christ: it leads to the realm of glory. There is just that suggestion. These two men represent what is coming, what is involved in the resurrection. "Two men suddenly stood by them in shining raiment". That is all I had in mind. At the resurrection the divine thought is presented; it is going to be a glorious state of things, and the assembly is the home of that glory at the present time.

W.S.S. I wondered whether the two men in shining raiment in Luke 24 suggest to us the product of Luke's gospel, of the glory seen on the mount.

J.T. Yes, I think Luke has glory in mind peculiarly. The glory seen on the mount is in relation to the kingdom of God. Matthew presents the transfiguration in relation to the Son of man coming in His kingdom; that is future, and it is His personal glory, the holy pomp in which He appears. In Mark 9:1 the Lord says, "until they shall have seen the kingdom of God come in power", referring to what is needed in the ministry; but Luke has in mind the present form of the kingdom of God, the moral side.

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W.D.P. Could you speak of it as a sphere of glory? Peter said, "It is good for us to be here" (Mark 9:5). Would that refer to a sphere of glory they were enjoying?

J.T. Quite so. What is in mind in Luke is the kingdom of God; it is heavenly, of course, but what is down here, the moral side of the kingdom. Hence, we have "two men" speaking with Jesus, before we get their names: the thought of men is stressed.

Ques. Is there a connection between what we have here in Luke and what we have in Acts 1?

J.T. There is a link between the three pairs of men. In Acts 1 it is in relation to the ascension; but they are in white raiment. At the resurrection they are in shining raiment. On the mount, which is really third in order of the three, it is a heavenly scene, but it is what is to work out morally in the kingdom down here. Hence, the two men are said to appear in glory: the other evangelists do not say that. Luke has in mind a glorious state of things, and the assembly is the home of that glory. I am only seeking to bring out the magnitude of our position here in this world, that the assembly is the home of divine glory. You have it in a three-fold way; in the resurrection, the ascension, and now in a scene of glory; it is glory in each case. The two persons represent adequate testimony, and the Lord would say to us, All I am putting before you in these details has in mind a great matter being opened up to you, that is, it is a question of glory, and you yourselves are to be the residence of it, and if you are to be that, each of you must be glorious; you must take on glory, first, covenant glory, then sonship or family glory, involving heavenly glory.

R.S.C. Is there the suggestion that the two men in Luke 24 solved the perplexity of those who came to the sepulchre?

J.T. That is the thought. If I am dull and depressed on Monday, I am to remember that God has glory in mind for me, for me to enjoy; nothing else is in His

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mind for me, and everything is to bring me to that. The very discipline, that at first may depress me, is intended to make me glorious! Stephen's being stoned was to make him glorious.

B.P. There were two here who were in the good of that glory.

J.T. Yes; it says, "as they were in perplexity about it ... behold, two men suddenly stood by them in shining raiment". That is the solution to your perplexity, if you take it in. The point is to look at the glory. It is the inability to look at the glory that causes our difficulties.

J.C.S. We need to open our hearts to the shining of this glory. It is very formative, and has a practical bearing on our everyday life.

J.T. We need to turn aside in moments of perplexity, and retire in secret, or wherever we may be, to look at this glory. It is the solution to everything. That is God's thought for us, nothing less than that! The thought is seen in Stephen: he saw the glory of God and Jesus. What an outlet from all the perplexities here below!

Ques. Does the raiment suggest we are in moral correspondence with this?

J.T. "Raiment" means what openly attaches to me, what I appear in.

R.S. Does Stephen come out as a priest?

J.T. Yes, he was a priest: he kneeled down and prayed. Never did garments of the kind appear more glorious, save in Christ Himself.

R.S. "That they may serve me as priests", it should read, not "in the priest's office" (Exodus 28:41).

J.T. Notice those "high caps": "for Aaron's sons thou shalt make vests" -- a sort of inner garment. It is not all show; if you take off the outer garments you find glory deeper than what is on the surface. The

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word "transformed" is not superficial, but substantial. Normal christians are not superficial; they are substantially glorious. If you probe them deeply, if you attempt to irritate them, you find there is glory there. The Lord says to Saul, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" (Acts 9:4) These were the people whom he had dragged out from their houses to prison, and they did not resist him, as James says. The glory was deeper than the surface. Here it is, "for Aaron's sons thou shalt make vests". Joseph had a vest of many colours: there was a glory there deeper than on the surface. Think of the will and hatred of his brethren who could carry that vest of Joseph's to their father and say, "Know now whether it be thy son's coat or no" (Genesis 37:32), without a tremor of feeling, although they had been murderers at heart, in the presence of the moral glory that was to be seen in their brother. Here in Exodus we have: "for Aaron's sons thou shalt make vests; and thou shalt make for them girdles" -- that is, the idea of service -- "and high caps shalt thou make for them, for glory and for ornament". Those high caps allude to spiritual understanding; not mere mental ability. The apostle Paul prays that the Colossians might be filled with the full knowledge of God's will, "in all wisdom and spiritual understanding" (chapter 1:9). So it says, "for glory and for ornament. And thou shalt clothe with them Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and hallow them, that they may serve me as priests". Then they are to have linen breeches, suggestive of purity and sobriety. "And they shall be upon Aaron and his sons when they enter into the tent of meeting, or when they come near to the altar to serve in the sanctuary; that they may not bear iniquity and die".

J.H.B. Have you a further thought about the two men in Luke 9?

J.T. It is to bring out the heavenly side; "appearing in glory" -- a beautiful form of words. "Two men

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talked with him, who were Moses and Elias, who, appearing in glory, spoke of his departure which he was about to accomplish in Jerusalem". Someone was speaking just now about the opening up of Exodus by the Lord to the two going to Emmaus: this would be the kind of thing. It is a question of His departure -- the word is really "exodus", that is, the way He would go out of this world. What kind of an exit was it? The book of Exodus is typically what it was. Moses would understand, and the Lord would have opened it up to those two going to Emmaus. "Having begun from Moses ... he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself". So I suppose the conversation here is to remind us as to what is becoming to us down here, the way the Lord went out at Jerusalem, the moral glory that shone in that outgoing -- what sufferings, what entire subjection to His Father's will! It was the kind of way He went out at Jerusalem, the moral glory that shone in that outgoing, that was the theme of the conversation. We can learn from them: the heavenly glory of these two men, Moses and Elias, the suitable dress they wore; they were 'at court', in the presence of the King, the Lord of glory, and they were dressed properly.

W.S.S. Might it be remarked just at that point that the apostle Peter had in view his own departure when referring to this scene of glory? He says, we "were eye-witnesses of his majesty" (2 Peter 1:16).

J.T. He was going out that way. He says, "Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me" (2 Peter 1:14). How was he going to do it? The Lord had told him: "When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not" (John 21:18). He is entirely submissive to the will of God in his second letter.

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J.H.B. Would there be something corresponding, in assembly service today, to this of which we read in Luke 9? It was a very wonderful plane to be on, to be able to speak with Him.

J.T. They are at liberty to speak to Christ, that is how it is put. It was not that He was speaking to them. It is a question of the liberty these men had with Christ: they are speaking with Him.

Ques. Should we need this sense of glory in our hearts at the Lord's supper?

J.T. Yes. On that great occasion we are talking to Him with all this glory in our hearts. In our service in assembly it should shine; it is the time for it peculiarly. The memorial side in its place, the covenant side in its place, and the heavenly side in its place. We come ready for everything, and shine suitably in every relation. We ought to shine as leaving our own houses. It is a question of the anointing. We are different in walking down the street. Ordinary church-goers are not the same as "holy brethren" who walk to the assembly. The anointing is what gives us dignity. "He that ... has anointed us, is God" (2 Corinthians 1:21).

J.H.B. Do you think the same thought is suggested when the psalmist speaks of oil causing man's face to shine (Psalm 104:15)?

J.T. Yes.

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Pages 197 - 403 -- "God's Inheritance in the Saints". Notes of Meetings in Manchester and elsewhere, 1939 (Volume 145).

GOD'S INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS (1)

1 Samuel 16:11 - 23; 1 Chronicles 11:1 - 3; 1 Chronicles 12:38 - 40

J.T. At meetings in Birmingham last year we dwelt on the book of Joshua in relation to the service of God, but more particularly to bring out our inheritance; the inheritance of the saints. What is in mind at this time is to consider God's inheritance. It is therefore really a complement of what we had last year. As the Lord may help, we may see that the completion of the subject is in God's inheritance in the saints.

I believe that David was taken up with this in view; not only as a type of Christ, but as a type of the saints too. We join in with Christ and thus become the inheritance of God, as Ephesians 1:18 says. This is a matter which all will recognise to be of the greatest importance as we are drawing near to the end: that there should be completion. The Spirit is here, according to the Lord's own words, not only to teach us, but to guide us into all the truth; and there will be triumph if this comes about in the last days. So the book of Revelation, which contemplates the last days, both as regards the government of God and the work of God in the assembly, brings in David in a striking manner; the Lord saying that He "has the key of David" (Revelation 3:7), which would undoubtedly signify that He can open up things authoritatively. So that, however few may be true, or however small the position, there is authority -- there is authority in the opening up of the truth. The Lord would assert that amongst us.

And then there is the presentation of Himself, in answer to that, in the last chapter of that book as "the

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root and offspring of David" (Revelation 22:16); this would mean that He has confidence, that with the opening that is made for the saints, as things advance, there has been inquiry in the truth -- the Root of David involving the gospel of John and the Offspring involving Matthew. So that as He presents Himself in these relations "the Spirit and the bride say, Come" (verse 17), which would indicate that the assembly is ready in a practical way, answering to all that He has opened up with authority in His service through many years. Now there is a response, on the part of the Spirit and the bride. It would seem as if the Spirit is exultant in the work He has accomplished -- not simply teaching us, but guiding us into all the truth.

Corresponding with Revelation, it would seem that the prophets confirm Christ's service as David, in this respect, in the thought of the service of God. David appears in the prophets both in this connection and in relation to Israel in the future militarily. David is to be their king, and their shepherd and their prince (see Ezekiel 37:24,25). Christ, as David, is known now in the assembly as in relation to the service of God. So, in the Davidic character there is the working out of the service of song; one of the most interesting thoughts that can come before us; all hingeing on Christ as known amongst us in His attractiveness as in our first scripture. Then in Chronicles, David is the centre of everything for the people of God. These six readings ought to lead us to 2 Chronicles 5.

We looked at Joshua in relation to the service of God, but, as said, more to bring out our inheritance; we thus have the ways and means of carrying on the service of God. It is obvious that that must precede the ministry of David, which, as we remarked, involves God's inheritance -- what He has in us. Joshua provides for us so that we might be enriched, but all to the end that God might be ministered to, so that He might enter on His inheritance in the saints.

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E.T.S. Why did you suggest that David should become attractive before he inaugurates the service of song?

J.T. To draw us to his side. He is thus introduced to us, as the passage before us reads: "he was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance". One who evidently followed all this speaks of him: "And one of the young men answered and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him". I doubt if we shall come into the service, or come under the eye of God in His service so as to be His inheritance in a practical sense, save as we have this appreciation of Christ. I think we come into things by the appreciation of them in Him. They are all there: all that pleases the eye of God is there, but it is His intention that we should come into it by the appreciation of what is presented in Christ. I think this young man in verse 18 would serve as a good example for us as to learning by observation what is in Christ, and coming into it by appreciation of Him; God working in us to that end. So that in the New Testament, as no doubt most of us know, He is formally presented several times -- seven at least -- as delightful to God: in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and elsewhere He is God's beloved Son. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (Matthew 3:17). That voice is to call attention to Him, and as having our attention drawn to Him, we are to observe what is there, and inquire why it is that heaven is so pleased with Him. We are to participate in what occasions pleasure to heaven.

F.C.H. Does the scripture in Acts 7:45,46 help? "David; who found favour before God". That is linked on with a reference to Joshua.

J.T. Quite so. The facts presented in our chapter would show that God was over this whole matter with

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infinite interest, looking on to the Antitype; He kept it in His own hand; He even held Samuel under His hand so that he should not make a mistake in this matter. Jehovah said to him: "I will tell thee what thou shalt do" (verse 3). He leaves nothing with him; He holds him tight; suggesting to us how that under divine control we should be in the service of God as now before us. "I will tell thee what thou shalt do; and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee".

P.L. Do you get these thoughts in Psalm 78:70,71? The choosing of Judah and mount Zion, and building His sanctuary like the heights; and then the choosing of David in his personal attractiveness. "And he chose David his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: from following the suckling-ewes, he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance". Is that in view of God's inheritance in His people?

J.T. Yes. "Israel his inheritance" -- David is thus seen in that setting: the whole position really is there, the building is connected with that: "he built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth which he hath founded for ever" (verse 69). It is a final thought, not a provisional one as in Exodus. Exodus 15:17 shows the wilderness position and also the final, only David personally is not in mind, and is not mentioned. "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in".

One thing to be observed is how felicitous is the effect of the presence of such a man as David -- what Christ is as heaven proclaims Him in the number of times alluded to; how it tends to draw us into its own thoughts and feelings: the joy there is, what God has in the whole matter.

M.W.B. Is that why in Psalm 114:1,2 we find the expression: "When Israel went out of Egypt, ... Judah

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was his sanctuary, Israel his dominion"? It is remarkable that Judah should be mentioned in that way.

J.T. I have often thought of that. You would search in vain, on the surface at least, for facts to confirm that; so that it must be in David and Solomon. In its own time this would appear. God had David in mind in "Judah was his sanctuary"; we might have thought that it should be Levi: but no, it is Judah -- showing God had something in mind and waited the time to disclose it. One can understand how it fits into the psalm, that psalm so beautifully concise and full of power; so that there is plenty of means of refreshment at the end of the psalm.

M.W.B. You refer to the water: it says, He "turned the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters" (verse 8).

J.T. That is what God is doing for us in a way; and certainly it will go on more as Christ has His place. How we are affected in the sense of feeling, not only intelligence, but feeling, in the presence of such a person, so attractive and yet so unobtrusive -- for David is not there until he is called. As far as his father and brothers are concerned there is not much interest. Samuel is brought round to the mind of God, he has power to say: "We will not sit down till he come hither". Then Jehovah says: "Arise, anoint him; for this is he". Then there is the mentioning of his name; it is not merely a name, it is "the beloved". It became his name and was his name, no doubt; but the mention of it here is: "the Spirit of Jehovah came upon David", this being the first mention of his name; Ruth 4:22 undoubtedly alludes to a time subsequent to this. David's genealogy is given there, but it was written later.

M.W.B. What is the spiritual import of God bringing in a king? We have had mediator and priest;

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the priesthood fails and the king is chosen sovereignly. Is the thought of royalty in view?

J.T. I suppose so, and subjection; the idea enters into the Lord's supper -- the authority, that is, the dominical supper, as we have often remarked. We all know how we need that, if we are to be brought in in relation to the pleasure of God -- the extension of what heaven saw and found in Christ as a Man down here.

J.R.S. Are you meaning that the thought of wealth is connected with the name of the Lord?

J.T. It is authority. In the actual service of God, we begin with the authority of God; authority must have place, and we thus proceed in this section of the service, making room for the Spirit. The Spirit has to be apprehended in relation to the Lord's supper, as the Holy Spirit. We can only say "Lord Jesus" properly by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:3). The very pronouncement of the title "Lord Jesus" involves wealth, it pervades our souls. Then there is the "Spirit of adoption" which comes in later, and the Spirit of the Father (Ephesians 3:16), comes in too.

W.S.S. Would a reference to Hebrews 2 help in relation to this? The Lord is presented there as the Leader of the praises, but first being set forth in His perfection, "made perfect". Does what we have in the history of David give the working out of that in him as leader, and then God's pleasure in it?

J.T. I have no doubt we shall come to that in the end of this book -- what David was, viewed, as we might say, abstractly. Of course, Christ being made "perfect" refers to His present condition; not to development, but to what He is in resurrection and ascension.

E.G. Is the thought of the extension of Christ seen in the scripture: "as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones" (1 Corinthians 15:48)?

J.T. Quite so. The great thought we ought to get first is what heaven thought of Christ in the announcements made. Peter, as he is about to put off his tabernacle,

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speaks of "the excellent glory" -- "such a voice", he says, we heard "from the excellent glory" (2 Peter 1:17). The richness of his language would show how God brings us to the full thought of a thing. That is the idea; how we are brought to what God finds in Christ. "There came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased". That is an objective thought. Peter had come to it now; he had not come to it on the mount, but he had come to it now -- years afterwards. He was now thoroughly in the state for the service of God, and so beautiful towards the saints and his fellow-servant, Paul. You feel that Christ is fully in Peter's heart. This is seen in his second epistle. It is a man thoroughly brought to it; and that is what God is aiming at now -- that Christ should be fully before us, and the formative work of the Spirit going on concurrently.

P.L. Would Samuel bringing David in connect with the delineation of Jesus in the Revelation?

J.T. Quite so. Samuel is brought to it. It is most important to be brought to a thing in this sense: "we will not sit down till he come hither". God now has a man thoroughly with Him in what He has in mind. "And Jehovah said, Arise, anoint him; for this is he. And Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren". Well, that is a beautiful thought; Samuel is now thoroughly in the thing; and one wants to be, in that way, thoroughly in what is seen here. I think we shall see that God led David on, so that he might be thoroughly in what He would set out in him.

Ques. In connection with David being anointed in the midst of his brethren, would the Spirit of God at the beginning dignify Christ in the midst of the saints?

J.T. Exactly: what we have every Lord's day; that we should be thoroughly in what is before us is the

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thought of God. What we are speaking of now, the most spiritual man of his day was not equal to at first, but now Samuel is thoroughly with God.

Ques. Would John the baptist be a little like it? He says: "I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God" (John 1:33,34).

J.T. A good illustration. John the baptist is quickly brought in in John's gospel. He is brought in immediately as it is said, "the Word became flesh" (verse 14); and as the chapter proceeds, how thoroughly John is brought into the truth. "And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God". That is the testimony to what he saw, but there was also the effect on his soul. The next statement he makes indicates what is going on in his soul: "Behold the Lamb of God!" (verse 36). He is taken up with Christ.

Eu.R. Does the title "prince" involve this personal attractiveness?

J.T. David is said to be the king, the prince, and the shepherd of Israel. If he is king he must be prince, but the latter is the idea of richness of personality.

Eu.R. Would the movements of the prince in Ezekiel, when the -people of the land come up, bear on what you have in mind -- the princely movements of Christ?

J.T. Yes; in Ezekiel 45 the people provide the "heave-offering for the prince". It is not king there, it is prince, a question of personality.

Now David is brought in; the introduction stresses the kind of person who was there. It is a person worthy of being loved. The more you know him the more you love him. Another point that comes out is how others take on what he was, and become like him.

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M.W.B. Is that seen in Psalm 45:16? "Instead of thy fathers shall be thy sons; princes shalt thou make them in all the earth".

J.T. Quite so, "in all the earth". You want to see the brethren take on all this; enlarged princely features: you want to see this coming in amongst the brethren. Even of his greatest enemy, David spoke most beautifully (see 2 Samuel 1:17 - 24).

P.L. Do the collections in our meetings involve princeliness?

J.T. Collections of money? I believe God is stressing that too -- the brethren in this city have experienced that. The book of Exodus shows how pleased God was with that; but we have to wait for David to get the full princely thought in that connection. Although in Numbers we get princely giving, the full thought of princeliness in giving is seen in David.

Rem. In that way Christ brings Himself before us that we might see the greatness and fulness of who He is.

J.T. You see here how the Spirit of God shows us the moral greatness of David, how he is even able to help Saul. I believe God would help us spiritually so that enmity or rivalry should be foreign to us; that we might view those that are anointed in their greatness as before God.

Ques. Do we see that when Abishai suggests to David that God has given his enemy into his hand? The magnanimous spirit of David does not give way.

J.T. The sons of Zeruiah have to come under that spirit; they were able men, but hard. God would present the grace of Christ to us so that we should be softened and have a princely attitude of mind towards all.

A.M.P. In his second epistle Peter refers to "our beloved brother Paul" (2 Peter 3:15).

J.T. Quite so. Second epistles generally bring out what the writers really are -- what they have come to; they are greater in their second than in their first letters. This is particularly seen in

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the second letter of Peter, also in Paul's second letter to the Corinthians.

T.H. Saul is subdued by David's playing on the harp, would you help us as to that?

J.T. "And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took the harp, and played with his hand; and Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him". Saul is getting a final opportunity to recover himself, if this were possible; and you want to give everybody in such circumstances that opportunity -- lavish grace upon him.

E.T.S. So that the man who serves men will be able to serve God better.

J.T. That is what comes out in David.

H.C. How could Saul have been recovered?

J.T. I only referred to our side of the matter: do not leave a stone unturned so that God may recover one who has gone out of the way. You do not know what there might be underneath a lot of rubbish in a man. In "the song of the bow" (2 Samuel 1:18), how beautifully David spoke of Saul!

J.C. Your attitude would be, "if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth" (2 Timothy 2:25).

Eu.R. Would what David says in 2 Samuel 22 indicate how God supports that spirit?

J.T. Quite so. Sorrows are for the working out of princely character. In our care meetings princeliness ought to show itself -- love acting in the entire absence of selfish and personal motives.

P.L. "Thy condescending gentleness hath made me great" (2 Samuel 22:36).

J.T. Yes: God known in David's soul had made him princely.

So in 1 Chronicles 11 we have the working out of this. "And all Israel assembled themselves to David to Hebron, saying, Behold, we are thy bone and thy

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flesh". We see now that the people are coming to this, not only what David is as worthy of their allegiance, but that they are related to him -- the extension of what David is, as it were: "thy bone and thy flesh".

Ques. Does that bring in the thought of what we are in divine counsel or is it more what we are morally?

J.T. What we are morally is what is in mind; the idea of Christ becoming extended -- a very interesting matter -- how He becomes extended in us so that we get confidence and claim Him in family relation, that we might say: "thy bone and thy flesh".

Ques. Does this connect with the scripture, "both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one" (Hebrews 2:11)?

J.T. Yes: "he that sanctifies". His work is in view there; but this is the extension of David really, or room being made for it. The people say, "We are thy bone and thy flesh", and then, "Even aforetime, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel". That is, they begin to see the matter; he led out and brought in; he was before their eyes, and they took on his character. That is the secret of getting on in our souls, paying attention to what is presented by way of example, and making room for the Spirit working subjectively. The Spirit will operate in us according to what is presented in Christ.

J.S.E. Do we get this thought of extension in the Supper as in 1 Corinthians 11:23? We have "the night in which he was delivered up", and, "as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup" (verse 26): is all that extension? As gathering together in relation to the Lord's supper during the very night in which the Lord is being betrayed, is this feature of loyalty to David seen developing in the saints?

J.T. Just so. The work goes on as seen in the types: the pillar of cloud and fire implied that the movements could go on day and night. God has made that provision

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whilst we are in the night externally, we being "children of the day" (1 Thessalonians 5:5). The Lord's supper implies that our constitutions are built up in relation to what the Supper presents to us; there is not only the memorial, but the idea of eating and drinking: "as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup". The cup particularly would promote a felicitous state of things amongst us. The cup is "the new covenant" in Christ's blood; and "as oft as ye drink it" means that in the drinking, a happy state of satisfaction is promoted.

M.W.B. What is objectively presented to us in the emblems, if we partake of them rightly, would be taken on by us subjectively.

J.T. That is the idea; formation proceeds: particularly in the drinking, because drinking, in the general import of it, is for satisfaction; and the cup completes the thought of memorial. The bread is the leading thought in the memorial, and the cup is the filling out of it. Christ in a full and complete way is before us, and we take in what is presented, in the sense of drinking, so that we are satisfied in the position. That is what leads up to the wealth that begins to show itself in the service, so that God's inheritance comes into view. It is what He has in the matter; therefore the word here: "Even aforetime, even when Saul was king, thou wast he that leddest out and broughtest in Israel; and Jehovah thy God said to thee, Thou shalt feed my people Israel, and thou shalt be prince over my people Israel". So there is this result: "And all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Jehovah; and they anointed David king over Israel according to the word of Jehovah through Samuel".

A.J.G. Is it significant that all Israel assembled? Is this apprehension of Christ unifying in its effect?

J.T. Yes; we are at Hebron here. David's reign of seven years over Judah alone is not mentioned; it is

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a question of the position spiritually. It is a Colossian position really: love for all saints; thus as to the cup the Lord says, "Drink ye all of it" (Matthew 26:27). The Colossian position is that we are in accord with that; we love all saints.

P.L. Do we have in the list of mighty men alluded to in this eleventh chapter, something akin to the personalities alluded to at the end of Colossians? "Epaphras, who is one of you" (Colossians 4:12), and others?

J.T. Yes. It is an epistle finishing up with personalities as you say. Romans gives a longer list, but not exactly taking on the character of mighty men. Although we have the suggestion of it in Romans, yet Colossians seems to bring us fully to this thought of the mighty men. Here it is: "And these are the chief of the mighty men whom David had, who shewed themselves valiant with him in his kingdom". "With him", that is the point in Colossians; we are "raised with him" (Colossians 2:12). They strengthen themselves, "with all Israel, to make him king, according to the word of Jehovah concerning Israel". It is now, "concerning Israel": in verse 3 "they anointed David king over Israel according to the word of Jehovah through Samuel".

J.H.L. What distinction do you draw between all Judah making him king in 2 Samuel and all Israel here?

J.T. We were remarking that Chronicles omits the reign at Hebron, formally, save at the end as filling out the forty years. Chronicles compresses the history from the abstract side, and leaves out the discrepancy at Hebron. David had to wait seven years for this complete position. The Spirit of God in Chronicles reaches the full thought at once. Certain conditions require this -- that we proceed at once to the full thought. Other circumstances require the full history, bringing out for moral reasons many other things, but the Spirit of God in Chronicles compresses the history to bring out the abstract side.

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Ques. How do we distinguish between David as king and David as prince in verse 2?

J.T. Kingship is more official. We have in Ezekiel what David would be: David would be king, prince, and shepherd. The king is obviously official, but founded on personality. The prince is clearly personality, and it is the title used almost invariably in Ezekiel after chapter 40; it is typical of Christ personally rather than what He is officially; that is so attractive.

M.W.B. You link the thought of prince with the moral and spiritual power behind the king?

J.T. Yes; the idea seems to be introduced in Jacob: "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed" (Genesis 32:28). It is power with God and with men.

J.J. Why is there no detail as to the anointing at Jerusalem? In Samuel he is anointed in secret and at Hebron in the midst of the elders, but there is no detail of anointing in Jerusalem. Is there an advance in the idea of the anointing?

J.T. This anointing is the third and final. Jerusalem here is a spiritual position, one taken in power, not entered on in a mere official way. We not only own Christ as Lord, but accord Him full place in our hearts: it is the ultimate position, taken in spiritual power, answering to Ephesians.

J.S.E. You have referred to being with Him. In Luke 22:14 we read that the Lord "placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him".

J.T. That refers to accredited witnesses in the inauguration of the Supper. It is a question of testimony; that it is thoroughly accredited; the twelve are there, the full number. The idea of personality would enter into that. The book of the Acts brings out how personality shone in the twelve. In Acts 2 the twelve were standing and one of them was preaching; conviction took place, and the hearers say "to Peter and

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the other apostles, What shall we do, brethren?" (Acts 2:37). How did they know that they were persons qualified to answer their questions? It is the work of God: the work of God in us affords such instincts.

Ques. Do you get personality in Mary in John 11:2: "It was the Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair"?

J.T. Quite so: "that Mary" -- there is personality in her and it comes out on that remarkable occasion when "they made him a supper" (John 12:2).

Eu.R. What is the distinction between the elders anointing David king in chapter 11:3, and what we have in chapter 12:38, "All of them men of war, keeping rank in battle array, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel"?

J.T. To make him king: that is not anointing. That is to affect him; he says elsewhere, "Do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?" (2 Samuel 19:22). He is made king: there is no doubt as to it at all now, his heart was full of it; it is what there is in this wonderful assembly; we have the description of it in the chapter, and you can understand what David's feelings would be. Were you to speak to him, you would observe how such interest and affection in all Israel affected him. Later he says to Abishai, "Do I not know that I am this day king?" He had overcome Absalom, but there was more than that, and David was conscious that he was king, and Abishai has to be silent (2 Samuel 19:21 - 23) -- a very important matter. Abishai would make David legal, but kingship involves grace. The two from Emmaus (Luke 24), as come to the eleven, and those gathered with them, found them saying, "The Lord is risen indeed" (verse 34) -- a wonderful point reached, especially as he had "appeared to Simon". So David is here as king.

E.J.McB. I suppose in the main what we were considering at Birmingham was what comes through

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Christ to the brethren, and now it is what we have in company with Him as King; and added to that this peculiar wealth?

J.T. That is it. I am sure He will help us as pursuing this book. David is made king; it is in the consciousness of it, that he says it. See the description, "All of them men of war, keeping rank in battle array, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel; and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king". The look of everyone there would convey that David was king. It is a manifest fact; they are there to establish it. "And all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king. And there they were with David three days, eating and drinking; for their brethren had prepared for them; and those too that were near them, as far as Issachar and Zebulun and Naphtali, brought food on asses, and on camels, and on mules, and on oxen; provisions of meal, fig-cakes and raisin-cakes, and wine and oil, and oxen and sheep, abundantly; for there was joy in Israel". What a day it was! -- and that is what God would bring about in assembly service -- happiness in a spiritual sense in the presence of Christ, as of Him; thus room is made for His marital relations in the assembly.

J.J. This is a military position; has that to be established before the priestly?

J.T. Quite so: but while it is a military position, the people are not talking much of military work just now. David is king; it is, we may say, the state of David: he is conscious of it. See the richness of this assembly! -- "for there was joy in Israel". And in regard of priesthood, it is mentioned specifically in verse 27, "Jehoiada the prince of Aaron, and with him were three thousand seven hundred; and Zadok, a valiant young man, and his father's house two and twenty chief men" (verses 27,28). It is the priestly family. You get the prince too; the princely state is there.

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David is king -- there is no one else; we have come to this.

Ques. Is this different from the feminine side in Israel?

J.T. This is masculine. 1 Samuel gives you the feminine side in the singing of the women, also the statement that "all Israel and Judah loved David" (1 Samuel 18:6,16); but now all the people are formally gathered to make him king. He is already anointed, but now he is made king. Applying all this to Christ, each true believer has part in it; that is, He is king in my soul.

G.A. They "came with a perfect heart"; would that be an important matter as evidencing loyalty in the saints?

J.T. Yes: "a perfect heart". In the new man, "Christ is everything, and in all" (Colossians 3:11). This enters into assembly service, beginning with the Lord's supper, and I believe as we proceed normally in the service in affection and intelligence, there is enrichment. We are inclined to be legal, without much heart; but, as we see here, as Christ has His place, there is a happy state of things. It is, "as often as ye shall drink it" (1 Corinthians 11:25). This refers to satisfaction and joy.

W.G.T. We reach an absolute monarchy here.

J.T. Quite so. David is everything here: he is made king -- everybody can see it in his face. See the number that came from beyond the Jordan; it is a wonderful gathering of affectionate and intelligent people.

Rem. Christ is also known as "King of kings, and Lord of lords" (Revelation 19:16).

J.T. Yes: that is an imperial thought; we are speaking about kingship amongst the saints now.

P.H.H. Chapter 12 commences with, "Now these are they that came to David to Ziklag"; whereas chapter 11 starts off with Hebron; does the former go back to

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wilderness circumstances and bear on grace connected with the kingly thought?

J.T. Chapter 12 is to show how David was attractive in every position he occupied; whether in Ziklag or in the wilderness, or in the stronghold. When he is in a poor way himself, even ready to fight against Israel (chapter 12:19), even then people come to him. It is the remarkable attraction he had under all circumstances, but these are extraordinary circumstances at Hebron (verse 23); this immense assembly. So the first part of the chapter is properly expressed in the words of Benjamin and Judah, through Amasai: "Thine are we, David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace be to thee, and peace be to thy helpers! for thy God helps thee" (verse 18). I believe the early part of the chapter would correspond with 1 Corinthians; it is the wilderness side, the Lord is rejected; we show His death till He come, but the second part of the chapter is Colossians; we come to Hebron and the priestly side of the position.

M.W.B. Would verse 22 be the climax on the 1 Corinthians side: "a great camp, like the camp of God"; and then we go on to Hebron to reach the climax of Christ being made King?

J.T. I think so; Colossians is Christ "everything, and in all" (chapter 3:11)

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GOD'S INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS (2)

1 Chronicles 15:1 - 3, 25 - 29; 1 Chronicles 17:1 - 15

J.T. In our previous reading David was before us as a type of Christ; and we finished at the end of chapter 12 in which all Israel came together to make him king. The happy state marking the great occasion was pointed out: "there was joy in Israel".

In the section before us now, David is more a type of a believer learning; ending in the acceptance of sonship in chapter 17. It is clear that, as Christ comes before us personally, learning on our side is necessary so that we should reach experimentally what we see in Him in an objective way. In John's gospel, for instance, we begin with the Person of Christ peculiarly, coming in in the last days when saints are separated from each other through bad teaching, involving sectarianism; true believers are drawn together through increased attraction to Christ. And then, as disciples become attracted to Him, they have in mind immediately that He is a Teacher. So that John's gospel may be regarded as marked by teaching and discipleship; we see in it those who learn. It seems as if this section of 1 Chronicles is similarly marked by divine instruction received on the part of a believer, sometimes through failure, but the failures recorded in this book are rather on account of the result of them in David. They have that in view more than mere history; hence chapter 15 records the acknowledgment by David of his failure, and that of the people, in undertaking to bring the ark of God on a cart; a sin that is common today; that is, worldly principles adopted in the service of God; and from which many, as judging it, are learning. No doubt we have all had our part in this. What is stressed here is the thoroughness with which the instruction is received, also the thoroughness of the correction involved. Chapter 15 stresses that; indeed, one lesson in

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this book is the thoroughness with which we are to imbibe divine instruction; half measures will not do, half-heartedness, or compromise will not do. In the light of this book God would have us to go the whole way indicated in the instruction.

Ques. Is the work of God the great outstanding feature here? Would you say a word as to the feature of His glory in that?

J.T. Well, that is the next point. We have arrived at kingship; all the people make David king -- he is thoroughly that; he is in their hearts as king, but now he drops to the level of a believer who would serve God. He looks back on history, and sends to his brethren everywhere, in all the lands of Israel, and with them to the priests and Levites, and says: "Let us bring again the ark of our God to us; for we inquired not of it in the days of Saul" (chapter 13:3). That is the position now; the believer looks back and takes account of the failure of earlier days. It was a sorrowful thing that in all the days of Saul the ark was not inquired of; and then the desire to rectify the position leads to the use of a cart, whereas it should have been carried on the shoulders of the Levites. No doubt most of the brethren recognise that for many years back the Lord has been helping as to order in the service of God; that there should be rigid exclusion of human innovations and a return to divine order.

Eu.R. Is this thoroughness you speak of seen in that they definitely name the thing, "None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites"? And then God's hand in discipline is owned, "For because ye did it not at the first, Jehovah our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order" (verse 13). Should that characterise our assemblies today, a readiness to bow to the hand of God, while returning to the truth?

J.T. That is right. David is not seen here as concerned about the blessing he had missed in causing the

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ark to be carried into the house of Obed-Edom; he is on a higher plane than that, owning that the divine order had been transgressed. It shows how thoroughly he felt all this. 2 Samuel 6:12 would show that he was concerned about the blessing he had missed, but here he is on a higher plane, thinking for God and the true order of His service; he prepared a place for the ark.

Then another thing that comes out is the long period during which the ark was in the house of Abinadab on the hill, and yet in all that time, Abinadab and his house never seemed to be concerned as to the law governing the care of the ark. It indicates how we may be interested in Christ as seen in the ark, and yet never inquire in a priestly way as to Him; as to what is required of us, and what is due to Him. The two sons of Abinadab drove the cart, "And they carried the ark of God on a new cart out of the house of Abinadab; and Uzza and Ahio drove the cart" (chapter 13:7). David and Israel played before Jehovah with all their might. A great error passes unnoticed; what was being done was evidently regarded as right and for God; but God was not pleased with the thing, although there was much evidence of energy in David and all Israel; they "played before God with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with lutes, and with tambours, and with cymbals, and with trumpets" (verse 8). How much of this there may be in the service, and yet God is displeased all the time!

A.J.G. Does the way the Spirit of God records the incident suggest the feeling of displeasure in that He emphasises that it was "the ark of God, of Jehovah, who sitteth between the cherubim, whose name is placed there" (verse 6)? Has that reference to the misuse, the incongruity of the way things were being done?

J.T. Quite so. How long we may go on with the service, and seemingly heartily in it too, with all our might -- Sunday schools, and all that sort of thing --

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doing things as they are done around us. We may be in it thoroughly, and yet insensible as to the divine displeasure. That, I think, is a most searching matter.

F.C.H. What is involved in the sitting "between the cherubim"?

J.T. The cherubim suggest the government of God; He is there as between them; He is armed with power to enforce His rights: that is the idea. We may ignore His rights, and go on as if all were well; it never occurring to us, that the cart is a human innovation, a Philistine idea. Sunday schools, for instance, are a modern innovation; and there are many other such practices that have been happily discarded now, but we went on with them -- we all, no doubt, have to admit that -- with all our might.

C.O.B. Is there significance in the repetition of "us" and "our" seven times in the second and third verses of chapter 13?

J.T. I suppose David had in mind that it was a mutual matter.

C.O.B. I was wondering if he was looking at it from the people's point of view rather than from God's point of view; to have the ark brought up "to us".

J.T. The mutual side is stressed, and in chapter 15:13 he says, "Jehovah our God made a breach upon us". We should inquire in such circumstances as to how things have been. The ark had not been inquired of all in the days of Saul: well, where was it then? What had become of it? What were its surroundings? At the outset of this movement such exercises were shallow.

N.K.M. How would the thought of inquiring of the ark work out practically?

J.T. Such a movement would test things, as you might say, religiously in Israel. Saul attempted to inquire, but this is ignored, as if his attempt was unholy (1 Samuel 14:18). The whole setting of the ark should be in mind in the inquiry. Asaph, for instance, the

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skilled singer in the service of God, said that when he went into the sanctuaries of God he understood things (see Psalm 73:17). The ark would be there; it is what Christ is as before God; but holiness was to surround all connected with the ark.

W.S.S. The adjustment in David's mind seems to be connected with, "None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites". Is there help in that -- the service must be levitical, what is priestly supporting the service of God?

J.T. That is what he says in chapter 15; how thoroughly he has judged the thing! He has discarded the idea of the cart altogether, as judging it. It is a Philistine notion. One can understand how an unspiritual Israelite would say, Well, it came back on a cart to us; and it did, of course, and the milch kine also were influenced divinely as they moved back; but then, are we to ignore the word of God because of something that appears before our eyes? Though God does things sovereignly, His word is established in heaven; that must come first; and this is what David indicates he has come to in chapter 15.

Rem. We see here the seriousness of going on with a thing because there has been something good in it, when God's instructions have been disregarded.

J.T. Just so. David and the people here are ignoring the law governing the ark, and now God has made a breach. When God comes in and indicates His mind in any matter that hitherto has passed muster, and it is clear that such practices are not of Him, but are modern, then self-judgment is required; and it is the thoroughness of this, I think, that we should observe here.

J.J. Would the addresses to the seven churches help us to understand the way the Lord regards with displeasure the human way things were done in Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, and Sardis?

J.T. Yes. Each address has some correction in it; and disregard of the correction is sure to bring down

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judicial consequences. What is needed is going the whole way in condemning the evil -- there is often much compromise and excuse. This is learning thoroughly, and chapter 15 shows how thoroughly David had learnt the lesson.

M.W.B. Do we get the same principle in Ezekiel, where the prophet is shown the measurements of the house, and exhorts the people to measure their pattern by God's pattern?

J.T. Exactly; Jehovah tells the prophet to show the pattern to the house of Israel (Ezekiel 43:10).

G.C.S. When God directed the milch kine to Beth-shemesh it was to a city that was not only a Levites' city, but a Kohathite city.

J.T. The Levites are there and did certain needed work (1 Samuel 6:15), but the general understanding was defective because a large number were slain there because they looked into the ark unholily. Then it is brought to the house of Abinadab on the hill, and his son is sanctified to look after it, and there it was for some years; but is Abinadab learning anything, and are his sons learning anything through having it there? Could they tell you what was seemly, what was required as to the ark of God? In housing and caring for the ark were they learning? Apparently they were not. According to 1 Chronicles 13, these two sons erred and no one seems to have noticed it.

P.L. Would you get this in Colosse -- the outward order right, but the danger there -- "Let no one fraudulently deprive you of your prize" (Colossians 2:18); then the thoroughness in circumcision and adjustment; and then, "Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God" (Colossians 3:16). Would all that result now in the service of praise being in a right setting?

J.T. Quite so: Colossians stresses circumcision and the cross; it means thoroughness.

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T.H. How would this matter of preparing a place for the ark of God and spreading a tent for it bear on us today?

J.T. That is what we are coming on to in chapter 15. If taken in, the negative instruction in chapter 13 should help us. Think of the extraordinariness of the ark being in this household for so many years and there being no understanding of the levitical law, the law governing the carrying of the ark! They make a new cart, which implies that they had in some sense thought of the exercise; evidently their mind was that there must be something beyond the ordinary; but it is only in the newness of the cart! It is a modern idea, a Philistine idea, and hence a wrong idea, and nobody was noticing it.

Ques. Do you judge that primarily it refers to error as to the truth of Christ's Person, and that coming in means that the carrying out of the service of God is impossible?

J.T. It is dishonouring Him; it is not that the truth of His Person, His Deity, is denied, nothing so gross as that, but the licence or looseness with which He is regarded and what is connected with Him; for it is not only Christ personally, but the testimony.

Rem. I was just thinking of the way He is regarded in christendom, even seeking to fix the truth of His Person in creeds.

J.T. Just so; but the point here is how the ark is carried. Orthodoxy is implied, but the way things are done is not after the due order.

L.E.S. Would the side of human expediency make way for the dulling of spiritual sensibilities?

J.T. It does.

Rem. In verse 6 it says: "And David went up, and all Israel, ... to bring up from thence the ark of God"; like king Uzziah at a later date, he takes a place that God had not ascribed to him; but in chapter 15 David gathers the sons of Aaron together.

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J.T. I was going to remark on that; the military are hardly seen in chapter 15. "And David, and the elders of Israel, and the captains over thousands, went to bring up the ark of the covenant of Jehovah out of the house of Obed-Edom with joy". Before we get this we have all this remarkable instruction as to the priesthood and the Levites, from verse 1 to verse 24. What a number of names we have! -- priestly names, indicating the thoroughness with which David had learnt the instruction. It is to check in us the licence with which divine things are handled and the neglect of the instruction that comes to us constantly. God would impress upon us the importance of thoroughness.

F.C.H. In chapter 14:12 David commands that the Philistines' gods should be burned with fire.

J.T. In that David is showing that he is learning.

Ques. Is there a connection between the two breaches -- the "breach upon Uzza" and then in chapter 14 at Baal-perazim, the place of breaches? Does that indicate what David learnt in his discipline?

J.T. I think so; David is saying the breach must be against the Philistines; not against him and against Israel now, the breach is against the Philistines.

H.M.S. There are two thoughts in chapter 13, "Let us bring again the ark of our God to us" (verse 3); and "How shall I bring the ark of God to me?" (verse 12). Is that a wrong thought, "to us" and "to me", or is it a right thought?

J.T. It would seem that David was in a wrong state there; it says he was indignant in verse 11, "for Jehovah had made a breach upon Uzza; and he called that place Perez-Uzza to this day". It means, Breach on Uzza, and then it is called that to this day; that is, the matter is learnt and recognised in this name. Then David was "afraid of God"; well, we shall never get on in the service of God if we are afraid of Him, in this sense. "How shall I bring the ark of God to me?" It is a state that had to be dealt with. People may argue

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about things, and defend them, and excuse them, but they are exposing themselves, and in truth it is the state we are in, in such cases, that God would bring to light.

M.W.B. Really chapter 15 shows how David had made distinct progress in the judgment of the powers that led him astray.

J.T. Yes; the breach of Uzza, and then the place of breaches, referring to the Philistines' overthrow. He thoroughly judged that element, not only literally, but spiritually, burning their gods.

W.G.T. Would you say that if we introduce the Philistine idea we shall eventually have the Philistine amongst us?

J.T. Quite so. You may say, in regard of some human innovation, that God has used it; but what is the origin of it? Is it of God or of man? God's word must be the first consideration.

J.S.E. Is the setting of this chapter to show how wealth comes from God when we judge things morally rather than by certain results?

J.T. That is what comes to light; how thoroughly David had judged the Philistine innovation; and what follows, shows how subject David is in meeting this Philistine attack, as if he is wary of this element, not only because of its military power, but because of the religious influence. He is wary of it, and seeks God's mind about going to battle with them; and God shows him what to do, and there is a complete overthrow of the Philistine power; so we have these chapters 15 to 17. Chapter 17 introduces a new matter, namely, sonship, but in order to have sonship we have to go through these chapters. We cannot enjoy sonship while we are using Philistine resources.

Eu.R. Does it mean that in anything God has shown His mind about, the saints need to be brought into accord with it before there can be any further movement?

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J.T. I think the instruction in chapter 14 is to bring out how David was on the line of learning. Though a great military man, yet he says, I must get the mind of God as to how to meet this attack; and God graciously answers in both cases. So not only do we have the overthrow of the Philistines, but the gods are burned with fire. It is the thoroughness of the overthrow; and then the wealth you get as disallowing all these innovations and going in thoroughly for what is of God.

W.S.S. I was thinking of verse 8; the Philistines learned that David had been anointed king: that was the point of the attack.

J.T. Just so. Now before he undertakes to bring the ark up, he "made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and spread a tent for it". He is now in accord with Psalm 132:4,5: "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob". Then he invites Jehovah to enter into what he had prepared; how beautiful that is! It is not a question of what God is doing through any service, but what suits God: "Until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob". Psalm 132 shows how exercised David was; and if he had met Abinadab then, what a conversation they would have had! David would have exposed him, suggesting, You have had the ark, all those years, and what has your exercise been about the ark of God? How did you get on daily about this matter? Did you read the book of Numbers, as having the ark in your house? Abinadab might say that David was too particular, that the use of a cart as to it was a minor matter, but the king would reply that it should be carried by the Levites only.

Rem. Abinadab's house would not be morally in accord with the ark.

J.T. No. What David now prepared would be suitable until the temple was built.

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J.H.B. Why is it the ark of God in these chapters?

J.T. I suppose the authority of God is in mind: He dwells between the cherubim. We may go back to Genesis 3 for help as to that; the cherubim were guarding the way to the tree of life. God would not allow man to have that in his sinful state. He guards the tree of life by the cherubim. Maybe in the house of Abinadab the ark was covered with an ordinary piece of cloth, or something like that. He must have had it a great many years -- twenty years, 1 Samuel 7 says, but that period had ended then, and the reign of Saul and part of that of David must be added. What would you see there? Evidently not priestly care of the ark. According to the facts given, Abinadab's children were brought up with rather loose thoughts as to the ark.

A.C. Martha, as seen in Luke 10, was not in a suited state for the ark, but in John 12 she was; she serves acceptably.

J.T. Quite so. Her house hardly afforded a place for Christ according to Luke's description, but "they made him a supper" and all was in order according to John 12.

W.S.S. How does the house of Obed-Edom fit in? God blessed all belonging to him.

J.T. That is all that is said. We have to judge of him by God's attitude towards him; that he was acting rightly. If God is blessing a man, his ways are pleasing God -- he is thinking rightly of the ark. It is not said that God blessed Abinadab.

C.J.T. In this movement, although priests and Levites were to take it up they were to "hallow themselves" (verse 12).

J.T. You are referring to chapter 15 -- well, see the ground we are on now! How delightful it is to stand alongside David now! "And he made him houses in the city of David, and prepared a place for the ark of God, and spread a tent for it". What had been prescribed as to the ark in Numbers 3 and 4 is now

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recognised. Then, according to Numbers 10 the order was changed. When they began to march, the order was changed: the Gershonites and the Merarites went ahead with the tabernacle and set it up before the ark came. The Kohathites came, bearing the sanctuary. As we love Christ we have things ready for Christ.

Ques. Is that why David said, "None ought to carry the ark of God but the Levites, for them has Jehovah chosen". He does not use the word commanded, but chosen; is that a spiritual uplift?

J.T. I think so. We get recompense when we make room for Christ, prepare for Him. Some of us were lately looking at Numbers 10; the tabernacle was set up first, so that when the sanctuary came, it was not exposed, it was set in its place: then, as if God would say, I will reward you for that, the ark went before to find out a resting-place for them. As we honour Christ, He honours us: the ark itself became leader of the saints -- going before to find a resting-place for them.

J.J. Do you think there is a suggestion, in the ark moving from the house of Abinadab to the house of Obed-Edom, of Christ amongst the gentiles?

J.T. You refer to the composition of his name -- Obed-Edom. You cannot attach much importance to it, being called a Gittite, he may have been of Philistine origin. This would imply that he was the subject of sovereign mercy and valued this. It is vague, because we have an Obed-Edom amongst the Levites later here. But one point is, that if God is blessing a man, that man is pleasing to Him. It is not simply that I get converts and the like; that is not the point. Is God blessing me and my house? That is the clear indication that God is pleased with him. David does not refer to that point here, although it influenced him according to Samuel. Here he is not thinking of that side, of the blessing that comes to him, but what is due to God: that is to be noticed. David, in chapter 15, is imbued with the thought of God's rights.

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P.H.H. What is conveyed in the expression "tent"? It does not seem to be a final thought, as later on in connection with the temple; would it suggest at all the level of Ephesians -- that is, at the present time?

J.T. It alludes to what is provisional as over against the sanctuary built like the heights, which God establishes for ever (Psalm 78:69). What David does here follows Exodus, but when you come to chapter 17 you get the change: he has in his mind a fixed habitation for God. In the meantime, he is doing what is right; for it was according to God to have a tent -- the book of Exodus shows that -- but as he proceeds, chapter 17 shows that he has in his mind to have permanent dwelling for God.

M.W.B. In the beginning of chapter 16 there is a reference to this tent and in verse 39 there is mention of the tabernacle, both are provided for in service; would you say a word as to the distinction between the two as applicable to this day?

J.T. I am glad you bring that up because it will enable us to say a little about the position at Gibeon as related to the position at Jerusalem -- how David is able to carry the two thoughts with him. He is typical of an instructed christian as to that which is to be discontinued, though still owned of God, and not yet discarded. It was about to merge in the temple, but in the meantime he is recognising what God had ordained. The time is coming for it to be discarded, but he is recognising it still. It is brought in, I think, to show how David is learning; how the disciple or christian learns from God, and observes what God is still owning.

What should be noticed, after the richness of chapter 15 down to verse 24, is that David's personal service brings out reproach; that as learning and coming into accord with the mind of God, we are sure to come in for reproach. So "Michal the daughter of Saul looked

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through a window, and saw king David dancing and playing; and she despised him in her heart".

A.J.G. Does the reproach come from those who are just onlookers?

J.T. That is it. At certain times brethren become quite prominent, as we speak, noticed and even commended; but this despising in the heart always exists as God's rights are practically owned; "she despised him in her heart". That is bitter.

Ques. Can we link that up with the thought that Michal was Saul's suggestion, and it is never said that David loved Michal, although it is said she loved him?

J.T. She is very much like the christian in a human system, having a regard for Christ, but secretly despising those who honour Him. David was honouring Him here: "And David was clothed with a robe of byssus, and all the Levites that bore the ark, and the singers, and Chenaniah chief of the music of the singers; and David had upon him a linen ephod. And all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of Jehovah with shouting, and with sound of the trumpet, and with clarions, and with cymbals, playing aloud with lutes and harps. And it came to pass as the ark of the covenant of Jehovah came to the city of David, that Michal the daughter of Saul looked through a window, and saw king David dancing and playing; and she despised him in her heart". That corresponds to a certain attitude today.

H.B. Why is it the city of David and not Jerusalem? What is it in contrast to Hebron?

J.T. It is Jerusalem, only David, as acting for God, took it, according to the earlier note in chapter 11: "David took the stronghold of Zion, which is the city of David ... And David dwelt in the stronghold; therefore they called it the city of David. And he built the city round about, even from the Millo round about; and Joab renewed the rest of the city" (verses 5,7,8);

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and Samuel adds to that by saying that David built "inward": this, I think, is to bring out the spiritual influence of David at that time. That seems to be the thought, that the Spirit of God is stressing David in all this, so that the surroundings are suitable. A man that is so concerned about the testimony is worthy to be mentioned in this way. He is not here a type of Christ, but of the believer, I think.

H.M.S. Why do we have now a fresh title for the ark, "ark of the covenant of Jehovah"? Had the covenant been disregarded?

J.T. Yes. David is now coming nearer to God as in covenant relations with him. In spite of the judgment of Michal, how happy David is to be nearing the idea of covenant relations with God; and after this despisal, instead of David being disconcerted by it, he goes on. It is the progress of the moment, how God is leading His people on with increased light as to His service. David goes on in spite of her despisal, and he writes his psalm on that day: "Then on that day David delivered first this psalm to give thanks to Jehovah through Asaph and his brethren" (chapter 16:7). Let the despising go on, and it will go on; but let us go on with the truth, let us progress in the truth. There is much yet to be understood; and I think this psalm is very wonderful at this juncture. It shows that David is giving his mind to the service of God and not to what Michal is saying. Let us give our minds to this great matter of the service of God; there is much further instruction that is needed.

So David makes a selection, for the service of God, from other psalms, that is suitable to the moment; that is, we may say, a hymn book suitable to the moment. He is learning; light is streaming into his soul; he is in reproach, but he is now a worshipper; he has come to it, and he is going on in it. He delivered it, but it is a composition made up of psalms -- about six other psalms are drawn from. That is, a man who understands

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how to draw on current provision or selections, makes the most use of what we have.

Ques. To use the contribution of others?

J.T. Yes, the contributions of others; we are making the best use of what we have, but there is a good deal more needed. Some of us were remarking that in our hymn book there are about two hundred and fifty hymns addressed to the Lord Jesus, and about fifty to the Father. If the Lord Jesus is more in evidence in the service than the Father, there is need of balance. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are equal in Deity, but the Son and the Spirit have taken subject positions for the sake of the testimony and this should be always kept in mind. In public prayer many confine themselves to the Lord, not addressing the Father. That fails of needed balance.

P.L. Do you think that the sorrows of the reproach would develop the finer feelings for the service of song? The "enemies of the cross of Christ" (Philippians 3:18), caused Paul to weep, but he encouraged the saints to the service of song and says: "Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I will say, Rejoice", Philippians 4: 4.

J.T. Quite so; and in his own case, one of most striking cases, the treatment he received in Philippi from the authorities was unreasonably severe, and the jailor was quite in keeping with the attitude of the authorities. Nevertheless, as some of us were saying, the apostle and Silas go on to maintain the service of God; they had in the prison the meeting for prayer, and the meeting for praise, and the gospel meeting; also the Bible reading -- the latter in the jailor's house. The sufferings were intense, the persecution was unspeakable, but the service of God went on: what it must have been to God as their prayer developed into praise!

E.C.B. Would you help us as to addressing the Lord Jesus and the Father in prayer?

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J.T. One thing I would advise is, that we look into Scripture and see the number of times the Lord Jesus is addressed in prayer and praise, and see how many times the Father is addressed. That inquiry would instruct us, as showing that while Christ, of course, is addressed, God, as God, or the Father, is much more frequently addressed. At the same time we must steadily observe that the divine Persons are equal. If one honours the Father he must honour the Son and the Spirit too; but the Son and the Spirit, in wonderful condescension, have taken a place of subjection, and the Father is God in the economy: "to us there is one God, the Father", 1 Corinthians 8:6. So that the whole tenor of the New Testament would indicate that the Father is the One to be spoken to generally, although, as plainly shown in Scripture, Christ as Lord should be addressed also. Thus in our meetings for prayer, God the Father should have His place.

Rem. I think David employs seven titles, seven glories of God in speaking to Him, as in chapter 17:16 - 27.

J.T. We should now go on to that. In that chapter we have the finish of the instruction in this section: David accepts the message from Nathan. It is the first mention of Nathan in 1 Chronicles. His name means "a gift"; a man coming in on the line of gift -- a most important man. Chapter 17 shows that David is concerned now about the position of the ark; he says, "Behold, I dwell in a house of cedars, and the ark of the covenant of Jehovah under curtains. And Nathan said to David, Do all that is in thy heart; for God is with thee" (verses 1, 2). We have now a man who is learning, as we were saying; he has brought in this wonderful psalm drawn from current resources in the service of God; and now he is concerned about the ark, that even what he had prepared for it was not enough. Typically, he is advancing in appreciation of Christ; and we have Nathan introduced: he implies

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gift, as we noted, a most useful man in the history of David. What would he have done without him! you might say. God knows what is needed and provides him; and although he convicted him of sin, David never resented anything Nathan said. So we find him here taking a message from Jehovah to David; it is on that principle, like John 20; Nathan is the messenger from Jehovah to David.

F.C.H. God says, "Go and say to David my servant"; does David take on service now in a more exalted way than before?

J.T. I think this is the first mention of "servant" as applied to David in the book before us; it would mean that God is pleased with his service. He is progressing in the knowledge of God, and would like to build a house for Jehovah; and God says, He is My servant.

Rem. If we really have right desires God will see to it that we are educated as to them.

J.T. That is a good word. Here He brings in Nathan: he is a prophet, but his name indicates that his service is a special provision for the king; God is providing for His servant to guide him aright as to sonship.

Ques. In Hezekiah's time Nathan the prophet is said to have given commandment with David as to the praise of God (see 2 Chronicles 29:25); is that all in view in this?

J.T. I think so. Nathan is greatly honoured in David's history; even as rebuked by him, he accepts Nathan. It is a suggestion to us at the present time; there may be something the brethren need. We have arrived at this peculiar time. It looks as if we need to give keen attention to what God is doing; many are falling asleep, and a number of young brethren are coming forward with remarkable ability; this may correspond with this principle of gift that David recognises here in Nathan. It helps him. He is a greater man after Nathan has been to him; he is sitting in the

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liberty of sonship, in the light that Nathan has brought to him.

E.G. Nathan himself is adjusted by God and shows a beautiful spirit.

J.T. In this respect he has been like some young men of today, too quick in their answers: what is needed is quiet waiting on God. There are those who say yes, yes, to everything: that will not do. It is better to question an older brother respectfully. "Do all that is in thy heart; for God is with thee": that seems a good word; but, "it came to pass that night"; he has to go through the night. God works in the night. "Go and say to David my servant, Thus saith Jehovah: Thou shalt not build me a house to dwell in".

P.L. The knowledge that is born of reflection we want to cultivate.

J.T. Quite so; constant correction in the school of God -- the most spiritual of us need it.

Ques. Does that provide God with an opportunity to enrich the sphere of His own thoughts?

J.T. Exactly: the burden of the message is sonship. It ends in the fifteenth verse: "According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak to David". He did not add anything or subtract anything -- a very important matter. Jehovah says in the message: "And I will subdue all thine enemies; and I tell thee that Jehovah will build thee a house. And it shall come to pass, when thy days are fulfilled that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom. It is he who shall build me a house, and I will establish his throne for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son; and I will not take away my mercy from him, as I took it from him that was before thee; and I will settle him in my house and in my kingdom for ever; and his throne shall be established for ever. According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did

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Nathan speak to David". That is the light that has come to the learner's soul. Now he sits before Jehovah in the house, and in speaking to Him David uses a large number of titles of Jehovah, intelligently sitting before Him.

P.H.H. Does this refer to sonship in Christ and sonship in us?

J.T. It is Christ first that is in mind, but David is learning it. If the sonship of Christ is understood; if it is presented to me objectively in Christ, the idea is, I am learning it. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). We have contemplated it: it was there objectively; they saw how the Lord was with the Father. It is "an only-begotten with a father"; we contemplate that. As I am contemplating, I am taking on the thing, becoming it in a sense -- I believe that is the idea. "And king David went in and sat before Jehovah" (verse 16). We do not read of this before: he has taken on something of what the message conveys.

W.G.T. As the house comes into view we must have the Father and the Son; the kingdom does not go as far as this.

J.T. Quite so; sonship for us is by faith as presented objectively in Christ; we contemplate it in Him. That is my understanding of it. Divine things are so great they are presented in a Person great enough to express them: and as I contemplate, I become formed; for the Holy Spirit is operating in me as I contemplate; as to sonship, He is in us as the Spirit of it. David is coming into this now, he sat before Jehovah, and what follows is all the wonderful thoughts he has as there -- having arrived at the thought of sonship.

Eu.R. It does not say he sat before the ark but "before Jehovah".

J.T. Quite so: the thought of the ark merges in sonship in Him.

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GOD'S INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS (3)

1 Chronicles 21:18 - 30; 1 Chronicles 22:1 - 19

J.T. Brethren will recall that in our meeting yesterday afternoon we reached sonship. David is seen at the end of chapter 17 as moving in the light of the message from Jehovah through Nathan. He "sat before Jehovah", we are told, and spoke to Him in marked liberty and intelligence, indicating that the light that reached him through the message had affected him.

The section we are now reading, running on to the end of chapter 22, is a section of the book into which much enters both in a historical and moral sense. All that transpired is to be viewed in the light of sonship. According to the Spirit's account, we are advancing in the truth in this section. The house is in mind. Chapter 18 shows great victories by David -- military victories; and provision being made in the sense of education for the house. David's operations extend to the Euphrates, indicating enlargement of view; for that is the eastern limit of the territory assigned to Israel. Enlargement follows the light of sonship. All that is definitely allotted to us is to be taken hold of, and the wealth dedicated in view of the house.

The history however is not unmixed, for his service evidently elated David. So in chapter 21 we have him exposed to the enemy: it is said, "Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel". I think we are reminded in these facts that success in service, unless carried on assiduously in communion with God, may lead to pride: occupation with results, and the desire to enhance our own greatness by occupation with the number of converts, and of meetings, and their size; all this is not in keeping with spirituality. But the account is to bring out how failure is made to work out the divine thoughts in us. We have already noticed the thoroughness of David's self-judgment, and

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how it eventuates in positive things. The house is reached: for failure in any of us is not really judged unless it eventuates in something positive for God in the house of God and the service of God.

E.J.McB. How do you look at these three offers made to him by the prophet Gad in regard to this failure?

J.T. It would indicate, among other things, that the Lord would assure David of His consideration of him. He is not acting in an arbitrary way. He would suggest to His servant that He regarded him as yet capable of deliberation; a very important matter when we have failed. When we are capable of reasonable deliberation, God would ever assure us that He also is ready for that. He is not arbitrary with us in these circumstances.

P.L. That spirit with David led God to choose the shortest of the three lines of discipline suggested; and even then Jehovah intervened before the three days were up.

J.T. It is very touching at this stage that God is ready, as it were, to have mutual interchange of thought with His people, in giving us credit for having, in spite of our failure, moral qualities which enable us to take account of conditions and deliberate; and in result David trusted God, for he said: "Let me fall now into the hand of the Lord" (chapter 21:13).

In saying all this one would like the brethren to consider a little what immediately preceded chapter 21; it shows how God deals with us sectionally. Our lives are made up, and the history of the assembly too, on this principle. Light is vouchsafed to us, and then God permits us to move in it; and what follows brings out how far it has been effective. Chapter 18 has to be considered by itself; it is a general account of David's victories. What follows is the despising of grace by Hanun, son of the king of Ammon, and what eventuated from this; whether it warrants what actually happened

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in the sense of severity (chapter 20:3); whether this was according to the light that God had vouchsafed to David, we have to analyse and see, because we are in a mixed condition down here, and if God allows the light to work, the flesh is all too ready to show itself in spite of the light.

A.J.G. How do you regard David's showing kindness to the king of Ammon? In Deuteronomy 23 it is said that they were not to seek the peace nor the prosperity of the Ammonite for ever.

J.T. I am glad you mentioned that. Here David was actuated by the spirit of grace, and this fits into the instruction in the section before us; and Ammon is doing despite to the spirit of grace.

Ques. Would this link on with what we had yesterday as to the magnanimous spirit of David?

J.T. I think so; if grace is undeserved in our histories, and of course it is, nevertheless it is shown, and if we do despite to it, we become increasingly guilty. The Spirit leaves out the case of Mephibosheth here, which was grace resultful; instead of that we have, in Hanun, one doing insult to the spirit of grace.

F.C.H. How do you regard the putting of the crown of the king of Ammon on David's head?

J.T. I think that was right; it was the imperial thought which belonged to David; he was operating to the full limit of the territory assigned, which included these countries.

M.W.B. Is the enlargement of which you have spoken consequent on the light of sonship, all embraced in the victories in chapter 18 and in this remarkable one in chapter 19? There is the dedication of things to Jehovah, and then the interesting remark in chapter 18:17, "the sons of David were the first at the king's hand". Is that all on the lines of sonship, enlargement and education?

J.T. Yes. Chapter 18 is a general presentation of the result of David's military operations; and of his

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regime -- a fixed state of things -- with that thought at the end, "the sons of David were the first at the king's hand". Sonship is evidently in mind; it enters into the position, but the section shows, it seems to me, that with the full military prowess of the king a certain hardness developed. Verse 3 of chapter 20 says: "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with the saw, and with harrows of iron, and with saws. And so David did to all the cities of the children of Ammon". A certain hardness had developed, and, of course, it is only mentioned now as applying to ourselves, warning us as to any light vouchsafed, that we should be in accord with it, and not allow ourselves, in our success, to move from the state acquired in nearness to God, in communion with Him; for He has great pleasure in seeing the development of the light in our souls and the formation suitable to it. The account in this section shows that David was very successful, even in regard to the giants in the end of chapter 20, but then, success did not carry with it what was due to God, who has His interests and delight in us as observing the result of the light we have received. It is not only a matter of the success of our service, but the spirit in which we carry it on, that God is pleased with us every moment.

Ques. Does this elation at success allow Satan to strike at God really through the people, to destroy God's thoughts in respect of the house?

J.T. That is just it: he "stood up against Israel"; it is the people Satan has in mind. If Satan attacks a man prominent in service, he has God's people in mind; to rob God of His due. Light implies that we are to be formed for God. If sonship has come in, that is for God, for the Father; sons are for the Father; and if we are talking about sonship, as we ought to be, God is looking for the spirit of sonship in us. The Lord says, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit" (Luke 23:46); and Stephen says, "Lord Jesus, receive

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my spirit" (Acts 7:59). His spirit is what a man really is. God had already told David that he was a man of war, and so could not build the house, but he does not relax in his warlike severity. A great military man is inclined to push the military side to its limit; but here what David is most successful in, is depriving him of something (1 Chronicles 28:3). If that is so, then I ought to relax. This light of sonship is so precious we cannot be without it. Satan is aiming at the people; light vouchsafed is for all the saints, not simply for the brother who has light and gives it out. It is intended to affect the saints, and the saints are God's inheritance -- what is for God -- and Satan would rob God of His inheritance.

Rem. In prayer we are exhorted to be "without wrath or reasoning" (1 Timothy 2:8); and the Lord says, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

J.T. The Lord was on the cross in the presence of His enemies and that was His spirit; and then He says, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit". What that was for God! What He received there! That should be ever in our minds. Had David carried on in his warlike operations in the light of sonship? Did he learn from the reference to his military operations? Did he learn that he ought to relax from his exceeding severities -- cutting people with saws and so on? A man is what his spirit is, what he is for God in his work, his business, wherever he may be, every moment. I ought to be for God, pleasing to Him in my spirit.

Ques. Would the development of the affections proper to sonship preserve us in tenderness?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Was David failing then in the hard way he was treating the Ammonites?

J.T. Well, it is for us to judge. Did he need to do that? Could not the military work of God be carried on with less severity?

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Rem. Abigail comes to light with a modifying spirit. She had long been in company with a churlish man and now she stays David's hand; and David says, "Blessed be thy discernment" (1 Samuel 25:33).

J.T. That ought to be the attitude of the assembly, and those leading in service should be ready to accept wise advice. Paul was ready at times to be advised by others, but in going up to Jerusalem he would not be advised. This is seen specially in the house of Philip and his four daughters who prophesied. The atmosphere of that house must have been most affecting; and Agabus even acts what awaited the apostle in Jerusalem with his own girdle, to impress him; but there is no change.

Ques. Does "he that ruleth his spirit" is better than "he that taketh a city" apply (Proverbs 16:32)?

J.T. It does.

L.E.S. In Hebrews 12:9, it says: "Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits, and live?"

J.T. It is "the Father of spirits". That is a very important word. We have come "to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Hebrews 12:23); we have come to them. Well, if I have come to them, I ought to measure mine with them. It is "the spirits of just men made perfect"; they are that permanently, and I ought to learn from them. Hebrews 11 gives us a list of the men of faith, and I am surrounded by their testimony, "cloud of witnesses"; and I want to learn from them. Stephen carries on the thought: he maintained a spirit like his Master's as experiencing extreme persecution and sufferings. We need to emulate that spirit in having to do with opposition.

Rem. The Lord had to say to James and John, "Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" (Luke 9:55). John in the bosom of Jesus is a contrast: he is learning sonship.

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J.T. What a changed man he was!

Ques. Does "the spirits of just men made perfect" suggest they have arrived at that?

J.T. It is, I suppose, anticipative. It implies that it is complete, a finished thought; all anticipative, I should say. It is not the present state of those who fall asleep that is in mind, but the state of perfection reached when they receive their bodies. We have to avoid any thought of coming to the spirits of those fallen asleep now; Hebrews does not contemplate that. It is what is finished anticipatively -- what we have come to -- as over against what Israel came to at Sinai. Faith lays hold of this great system of things. It is not visible in a material sense -- "what might be touched" -- but come to by faith and realised in a spiritual way. In principle, we have part in what is presented in the assembly, especially the spirits of just men. Christ is the great example of it all.

Ques. Is the word as to the chastening of the Father in Hebrews 12 important in view of our coming to His holiness?

J.T. Quite so: "the Father of spirits"; and one has been thinking of oneself as to whether one is developing in one's spirit. We may have been developing in service, but what kind of spirits have we? They are not to be complaining ones, nor dissatisfied ones. It reminds us of the danger of living in service. It is what we deliver to Christ, as seen in Stephen, that counts.

W.C. Would Luke 10 bear on this point, to preserve us from living in service?

J.T. Just so. The seventy had come back from a season of very successful service; the Lord does not enlarge on that. They say: "Even the demons are subject to us through thy name" (verse 17); but He says, 'Do not rejoice in this'. I believe it enters into this section peculiarly, for David seems to have failed in his spirit to answer to the light he had received in chapter

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17. He is to die, to go to his fathers; but how is he to hand over his spirit to God? If I am complaining now, I am not fit. What is my spirit? I must have some capital to live on when I am passing over Jordan: it is a question of the state of my spirit.

M.W.B. In chapter 21:3 Joab says: "Why does my lord require this thing?" There was not only the wrong action, but the wrong spirit, as disregarding testimony against it.

J.T. You wonder at it; Joab the captain of the host and the other captains (2 Samuel 24:4), are all against this action of David; it is a challenge to him. He is evidently wrong in his spirit, and what we have in the chapters we have read, is to bring out the thoroughness of his recovery -- how thoroughly he is restored.

Ques. Does the turning point come in his discipline when he says: "Let thy hand, I pray thee, Jehovah my God, be on me and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be smitten" (chapter 21:17)?

J.T. Yes, the shepherd character comes out: "It is I that have sinned and done evil; but these sheep, what have they done?" It is very beautiful -- what a man David was, now came to light.

E.C.B. What is the difference between this and the record in 2 Samuel 24, where it is said that the Lord moved David to number the people?

J.T. You can see the suitability of its being just Satan who is in mind here, in Chronicles, as moving David. Samuel, I think, would bring out that God is dealing with the state of the people, and He is getting at that state through David. Here, it is not Jehovah but Satan; it is another view, for the people belong to God, and the enemy would attack them.

G.C.G. Would the way Satan appears at this juncture indicate that in regard to the securing of the saints as God's inheritance, we now see that the issue is between God and Satan?

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J.T. It is to bring out, I think, that here God's inheritance is in mind. Samuel and 1 Kings have more in mind the actual concrete condition of Israel; Chronicles contemplates besides that, the abstract state; and, in order to understand this, we must consider Luke 24 and John 20. No doubt the same event is recorded in both gospels, but John adheres to the abstract condition that was there. In this sense you can have nothing without God's work, and to see it fully it must be regarded abstractly. So John leaves out the things that Luke enlarges on; God is entitled to do that, to take account of His people abstractly. They are not His people at all if there is not something of His work in them, and He is entitled to take account of this, and He does so, and that really is the basis of all formation. There is the abstract work of God in relation to which He moves; He clothes His people and assures them at times that He is thinking of them in that way.

H.B. The wise woman says: "Why wilt thou swallow up the inheritance of the Lord?" (2 Samuel 20:19).

J.T. Quite so: there was an inheritance for God in that town, and God takes account of the town in that way. So Satan is operating here against what there is really for God. There is no doubt about it that there was something in Israel for God, and Satan would spoil God's inheritance; and the most effective way is to damage the leaders: here Satan affects the leader. It is the people that he has in mind: "Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel". Think of that with a servant of God! It is the outcome of not keeping assiduously in the light that God has given, and having our spirits maintained according to it.

J.H.T. Would verse 6 suggest that there is something that Satan could not touch or number -- Levi, in view of the service of God, and Benjamin linking up with the spirit of sonship?

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J.T. Levi and Benjamin were not numbered, as if the service of God was immune. "But Levi and Benjamin he did not count among them; for the king's word was abominable to Joab" (verse 6). There must be something in that. Was Joab governed for the moment by right thoughts in exempting those two tribes?

E.J.McB. You were speaking about the government of God -- would not Joab represent that? This matter had followed the arbitrary way David had carried on, and the rebuke comes from a leading military man.

J.T. Joab's history in no way indicated that he was less severe in military operations than the king; so it would come home to David, knowing what Joab was, a murderer, indeed: Where am I in my spirit, that even he has to rebuke me? David would have to think thus.

J.B. Do we get this principle in Luke 22:31? -- "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to have you, to sift you as wheat; but I have besought for thee that thy faith fail not".

J.T. Satan evidently had demanded to have all the apostles; what a bold thing that was! It was a challenge to the Lord as to whether these men were capable of standing the test he would put them through. The Lord says to Peter, "I have besought for thee". Seemingly the others were covered, although they all fled; showing, I think, the discriminating care of the Lord. The others were preserved from the extraordinary lengths to which Peter went; but the Lord prayed for Peter that his faith should not fail.

P.H.H. Would you say a word as to the difference between Gad, David's seer and Nathan the prophet? Both appear at the end of the book.

J.T. They were a peculiar provision of God; Nathan appears first in chapter 17. He is not spoken of as David's, but Gad is called David's seer: I think, to bring out the thought that David retained him; he would never dismiss his seer. Ahab said of Micah; "I

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hate him" (1 Kings 22:8), he did not like him; he knew that he told the truth, and David knew that Gad told the truth, but he did not dismiss him. David retained Gad; he would not dismiss a man like Gad, although he spoke to David against his conduct.

J.J. How do you regard the purchase of the threshing-floor of Ornan?

J.T. That is God coming in: "And the angel of Jehovah commanded Gad to say to David, that David should go up and rear an altar to Jehovah in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite". That is, God comes in at the right moment. God says, I am going on to My thought. This thought of God is in keeping with David's abstract condition. God knew what David was capable of and God takes the initiative; and it is where the altar is to be. He is not leaving David to decide as to where it is to be -- it is a question now of God's purpose. This verse would not fit earlier; David has come to it, and God says, I can now go on with My thoughts. He knew what was in David's heart at the bottom, as in chapter 17; and when we come to chapter 22 we shall see how he goes over the ground of Nathan's message, how thoroughly he had come to it. He is thorough in the matter; and this, I think, suggests the importance of being thorough in all these matters.

J.J. What is the concrete idea in the threshing-floor?

J.T. The principle of separation of the good from the bad; sifting. That is what God is doing; He had done it in David's soul here. The good was there; it refers to the mixed condition God has to deal with in us.

Rem. The disciples were to be sifted as wheat, as we have noted.

J.T. Exactly: wheat has to be sifted -- freed from all else.

J.C. Is the exercise of the threshing-floor seen in David's prayer? He says, "Let thy hand, I pray thee,

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Jehovah my God, be on me and on my father's house". Is that really the wheat coming to light?

J.T. Yes. God knows where the grain is; if there is no grain, of what good is the discipline implied here?

M.W.B. The failure only being mentioned in view of the great results in the recovery, the attempt of Satan against the people would be foiled by greater spoil than ever in the people.

J.T. Just so. There are much greater failures of David recorded in Samuel, than in this book. What is recorded here is to bring out what God is doing in view of the abstract condition of David -- to bring out the reality that was there. God has pleasure in that and can use it. Here, David is thoroughly brought round to the house. He calls it the house of God when there is literally no house of God. He is so far thoroughly in the truth: "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel". It is not what shall be, but what is.

S.B. Would you say a word as to the connection between the two threshing-floors -- what David learnt at "the threshing-floor of Chidon" (chapter 13:9), and here where the altar is to be set up? I was connecting it too with the fact that the ark was brought back from the Philistines in the days when the men of Beth-shemesh were reaping their wheat-harvest; but they did not go on with this thought.

J.T. That is all suggestive of what is important. Abinadab evidently did not gain anything, as we have been saying; it is in the threshing that God brings out the full result of His work. It is not only that we gain, but God gets something -- the fruit of His sowing.

Ques. You alluded to the failure of David in Samuel; Nathan is used there and Gad here; why is it not the priest in these two cases?

J.T. It is a question of a prophetic ministry; what God is stressing amongst us now. It is the prophet in both cases, and it is to David's credit that he retained

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them; God is recovering and preserving the saints now on this principle. The priest has not the same power as the prophet -- the prophet brings God into your soul; so we see in 1 Corinthians 14, that one is convicted and falls down because of the prophetic word; the priestly feature would be there, but it is not mentioned.

A.J.G. So that the prophetic word is the divine provision at any time to further what God is doing in His people.

J.T. The prophet brings God into your soul; God is present in a felt way and there is conviction. "By a prophet Jehovah brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved" (Hosea 12:13).

P.L. "The acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer" (1 Chronicles 29:29). Would that indicate that those most severe upon the flesh in prophetic power in regard of the saints, will have the most to write about them, in relation to the work of God? Do 1 and 2 Corinthians come in in that way?

J.T. They do. The three accounts would give you what God saw. One would like to read those books; we have not got them, but the point is the prophetic character of the books of David's life.

Eu.R. Would the great yield from discipline be seen in the word: "Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:28,29)? Would that involve no standing for flesh in the matter?

J.T. That is right. God is greatly stressing the prophetic ministry, and these two men, Gad and Nathan, are to be in our minds in the history we are reviewing. What they represent is essential to the service of God at the present time. It is not a mere ritual we are going on with; God is speaking to us every day about it.

Eu.R. "See that ye refuse not him that speaks ... from heaven" (Hebrews 12:25).

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Ques. Is it important in prophetic ministry to take account of the abstract side of God's work, not merely to speak to the conscience? In the actual ministry that would be in mind.

J.T. You get no result if there is no subjective work of God.

A.H.P. In the address to Philadelphia we get: "Thou hast kept the word of my patience" (Revelation 3:10); the prophets would have part in that, would they not?

J.T. Quite so. Through them His word comes to us. The prophets of the Old Testament represent the patience of God. He speaks of "rising early" and sending them.

N.K.M. With regard to the abstract thought being in mind in prophetic ministry, is that why Paul says, "Follow after love" (1 Corinthians 14:1)? It is a question of what there is in the souls of the saints.

J.T. Yes; and earlier, God pointedly said: "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened" (1 Corinthians 5:7). It is not 'that ye should be', but what they were.

Ques. With regard to God's looking into the soul in prophetic ministry, is there a suggestion of that in 1 Samuel 9:9? We read, "In former time in Israel, when a man went to ask counsel of God, he said, Come and let us go to the seer; for he that is now called a Prophet was in former time called a Seer".

J.T. Yes; what the prophet says enforces the mind of God. He sees things, but the gift implies power to enforce the word. The one who is now called a prophet used to be called a seer; the matter has become more effective. The thing is to enforce the truth in the minds of the saints; not only that I see things, but enforce them. The murderous attitude of Saul against David is overcome by the spirit of prophecy -- the prophets were prophesying, and Samuel was presiding over them, and even Saul himself prophesied (1 Samuel 19:19 - 24).

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Ques. Is there a link between what is seen in Ornan and Epaphras "always combating earnestly for you in prayers" (Colossians 4:12)? He was threshing wheat.

J.T. He was doing that important work, that is the point. "And Ornan turned back and saw the angel; and his four sons with him hid themselves. Now Ornan was threshing wheat". Philip had four daughters who prophesied; Ornan has four sons engaged in this profitable work -- threshing wheat; so conditions are favourable for what is to be developed. "And David came to Ornan, and Ornan looked and saw David, and went out of the threshing-floor, and bowed himself to David with his face to the ground". The position is right, the circumstances are right for the development of what God has in mind; and therefore we reach the house. God has His thoughts in all this; He has His thoughts and would make even evil conditions among His people work them out. The work of God is there and God has more than recovery in mind; He is going to reach His thoughts. Other things must enter into it, and Ornan represents that side. He is doing something good and profitable, and his four sons are with him.

W.G.T. David offers burnt-offerings and peace-offerings; there is not the sin-offering; it is the positive side.

J.T. Quite so; David is moving on to the house, and the sin-offering is omitted; the inheritance of God is in mind.

Ques. The full price of six hundred shekels of gold is paid; silver might remind us of the work of redemption, but would gold bring in sonship?

J.T. Yes; it is a great thought. You must make all the room possible for sonship, and sonship is in mind in the building of the house. So, virtually, David says, 'I will give plenty of scope for Solomon', and this leads us on to chapter 22. There are a great many young men coming on, and it is delightful to see them, but they are coming into things already existing -- they are

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not inaugurating anything. Solomon is coming into great wealth, in the production of which he had no part: that should keep him balanced and lowly. If I am a young man in the fellowship today, all this provision is available to me and I have to comport myself in regard of that.

Rem. "Other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours" (John 4:38).

J.T. Yes, exactly; chapter 22 enlarges on what existed: "And there are workmen with thee in abundance, hewers and workers of stone and timber, and all manner of skilful men for every kind of work. Of the gold, the silver, and the brass, and the iron, there is no number". That is for every young man today, that is what you come into; but add to it; bring in something of your own.

J.S.E. Do all these persons referred to in chapter 22 suggest those who have ideals and are working in relation to them? Would these workers in stone, and so on represent persons exercised as to divine thoughts?

J.T. Yes; John enlarges on what exists. He takes account of the work of God in whatever measure it may show itself.

P.L. "The acknowledgment of every good thing" (Philemon 6).

J.J. "His foundation is in the mountains of holiness" (Psalm 87:1). Is that this threshing-floor?

J.T. That psalm would enter into what is before us. We have here in Chronicles the burnt-offering and the peace-offering; also the ground acquired, and there is plenty of it for the purpose in mind. The amount paid for the place and the large amount of material here are to bring out what the Spirit of God is aiming at -- to bring out the greatness of sonship -- the largeness of what the Spirit of God has in mind, a supreme thought was to be attained. The house to be built was to be "exceeding great in fame and in beauty in all lands".

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J.S.E. What is the difference between the house of God (Elohim) and the house of Jehovah Elohim?

J.T. Well, Jehovah Elohim is, I think, the full thought; it involves that the whole power of God is linked up with His covenant. Jehovah is the covenant name, and that worked out today is the love name -- the love behind it; Elohim implies supremacy and power. It is the full thought of God, His power being available; David using the name Jehovah Elohim here would indicate the fulness of his recovery.

R.O.S. David paid the full price for the place -- he is a true son of Abraham as referred to in Luke 19:9 and Genesis 23.

J.T. A true son of Abraham in liberality, you mean -- you go the whole way. Here David paid the full money. There is nothing small about a man who is living in the light of sonship.

E.C.B. David's son is "young and tender", but the house to be built is to be "exceeding magnifical".

J.T. It is the measure of sonship in view spiritually. In chapter 17 there was no Solomon, but here we have Solomon, but a young thought, a tender thought; he is surrounded by everything he needs, and he is to "add to it". David is introducing the progressive thought which enters into youth. We are to advance in the thought of sonship. That is added in our exercises of a levitical character. Solomon here represents sonship, but there is to be progress in it, chapter 29 bringing out the fulness of it in Solomon as reigning.

P.H.H. Would you mind saying a word about Gibeon? -- it is mentioned in chapter 16:39: "Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of Jehovah in the high place that was at Gibeon"; and now in chapter 21: "And the tabernacle of Jehovah, which Moses had made in the wilderness, and the altar of burnt-offering, were at that time in the high place at Gibeon. But David could not go before it to inquire of God".

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J.T. We noted a little yesterday as to chapter 16 that David, although he had brought the ark into the city of David and prepared for it, still leaves the tabernacle at Gibeon and Zadok before it. Gibeon is the old position -- the new and the old are running together as at the beginning of Acts. The new position could never take full form until Paul is brought in. In him (Acts 9:20), sonship is presented in testimony: "He preached Jesus that he is the Son of God". The old position was observed until Acts 7. I think Gibeon here is to show that David provided the best man he had to look after the service, which, as in Acts, represents the patience of God. Zadok is carried through in Ezekiel to the millennium. So long as God is observing the old position it must be cherished. But in our chapter David is afraid to go to Gibeon: it is the legal system; whereas God's sword is sheathed at the altar David built in Ornan's threshing-floor. It is where the sword is sheathed that he can go. Gibeon cannot be the house of God. David says of the threshing-floor: "This is the house of the Lord God".

Eu.R. Would Solomon being "young and tender" indicate that the work of God in us is sensitive? We have to take care that it is not hindered; is it to be connected with the truth as established in David?

J.T. Yes. Solomon here would mean sonship in development; although it is Solomon, he is not yet the full development. This is a question of our apprehension of Him, not what Christ is in a personal sense. In chapter 23 Solomon is on the throne, with David; in chapter 29, on the throne alone; David is dead; and hence the next book is to bring out how the house is built.

F.S.M. Is the recovery of David seen here in that he reaches the point where God answered him in divine communications; and then the place of sacrifice; and then sonship in its time; and then a place for the ark and the vessels of the sanctuary? He seems to get

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an enlarged apprehension of the house of God although there is nothing material here at all.

J.T. Just the bare land. Does it not show that David has reached the truth of the house in his soul? God had met him through sacrifice, and he is in intelligent liberty with God and full of the idea of His house.

F.S.M. Those young in the faith may reach this in their souls through spiritual sacrifice.

J.T. Quite so: so this position links with Jacob as seen in Genesis 28. Jacob called the place where God appeared to him the house of God; it is a question of my soul being in relation to the Lord on terms of holy reciprocity, I am thus in perfect liberty with God. "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel". The divine inheritance is in view; in verse 3 he provides iron for the nails, and the brass; it is a question of strength, the power in which Christ was raised from the dead; all is held in that power. This position must stand.

Ques. Would it be right to say that in what follows on this David received the pattern of the house by the Spirit, but here it is more the general outline in mind?

J.T. Yes; what is in mind here is that God is effecting the thought in David's soul. He is now ready for the pattern, so that we have in the next verses: "And David commanded to collect the strangers that were in the land of Israel; and he set masons to hew wrought stones to build the house of God. And David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joists, and brass in abundance without weight". The idea is that this great thought must stand, it must be fixed by power in a subjective way: iron made into nails -- the whole position is in strength; it is the power of resurrection.

F.C.H. Why is it iron here and gold in 2 Chronicles?

J.T. This is a question of strength: gold is not a suggestion of strength -- it is quality. I believe it is

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resurrection here, the power of God, but in a subjective way. This thing must stand.

Ques. Is not the general scope of the thing in mind, the thing arrived at as an entity?

J.T. God's mind is reached through a moral process here; when David speaks about the pattern, that is a wholly spiritual matter. Chapters 28 and 29 are more spiritual matters -- the refined side of the house of God, as I hope we shall see. Material for the house is prominent in this chapter. What David has come to as a matter of understanding through a moral process becomes a concrete reality.

M.W.B. Do the iron and brass refer to the elements of the kingdom, secured in resurrection, but wrought out in the soul of the believer?

J.T. That is the thought. Romans is the great basic epistle, but Colossians and Ephesians build us up in the thing and we reach the gold.

P.L. "The words of the wise are as goads, and the collections of them as nails fastened in" (Ecclesiastes 12:11); and then we have Song of Songs immediately following -- is that the realm of the gold after the moral side in Proverbs and Ecclesiastes?

J.T. Yes, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs are the moral side; they prepare us for the Song of Songs, which is the refined side of our position.

A.B.P. Would the man in Acts 3:11 be like the nails -- "he held Peter and John"?

J.T. That is it exactly -- it is power. The man felt the power; Peter having taken him by the right hand and raised him up, and "his feet and ankle bones were made strong". "He held Peter and John". It is the system of God being developed in the early days.

R.O.S. What is meant by the strangers being brought in (1 Chronicles 22:2)?

J.T. They would be men that could be used in an arbitrary manner (see 1 Kings 9:20,21). The Israelites were not employed with the same rigour (1 Kings 5:14).

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It is a feature in the work of God that He can use us in an arbitrary manner.

W.G.T. Is your thought that David represents what goes through, whereas Solomon more what is subordinate to that?

J.T. Yes; David is the great thought in all this. Solomon is a counterpart of it.

W.A.S. Peter and John say, "Look on us" (Acts 3:4). Do we get the moral and spiritual in those two?

J.T. Peter and John there represent what God had effected for His testimony, and are over against the Beautiful gate of the temple; the man held to them.

L.O.L. Would Peter give us the moral side in Matthew 16:17, and John bring in the spiritual side? The Lord says: "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona". Was that what he was morally?

J.T. Well, "Simon Bar-jona" was the man in responsibility, but the Lord says more than that to Peter. He says, "Thou art Peter"; that is, Peter is material for the structure. The man in responsibility is blessed, in the sense of having had the revelation. "Thou art Peter" is what the one who had the revelation was -- as a result.

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GOD'S INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS (4)

1 Chronicles 23:1 - 6; 1 Chronicles 24:1 - 6; 1 Chronicles 25:1 - 7

J.T. It is in mind to refer again to chapter 22, but before doing so it might be remarked that this section -- chapters 23 to 27 inclusive -- contemplates Solomon on the throne; that is, David and Solomon reigning together; they also contemplate the ordering of the kingdom on the principle of twenty-four. Every department in the kingdom was thus ordered and provided for, down even to the matter of field products, vineyards, trees; also cattle -- what is called "the substance which was king David's" (chapter 27:31). In the previous section we have the light of sonship. Solomon was not yet born when Nathan's message was delivered; the events connected with his birth are not recorded in this book, but according to 2 Samuel, the birth took place in the period covered in that section, and in chapter 22 he is alluded to as "young and tender", but not yet on the throne. So that the instruction in those chapters, in chapter 22 particularly, contemplates Solomon on the scene, young and tender, and coming under David's instruction.

It is to be noted that chapter 22 begins with the definite statement of David as to the house: "This is the house of Jehovah Elohim, and this is the altar of burnt-offering for Israel". It is a definite end reached in his soul, God having answered him on the ground of sacrifice, and taking account of him as reaching a certain point in his soul through discipline. So that the house comes into view on moral lines, and what follows in chapter 22 shows that David would have it secure. The pattern of the house came in later, on a more spiritual plane; for it is not on the moral line, but on the spiritual line he received the pattern; it was "by the Spirit" (chapter 28:12).

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It is thought well to ponder chapter 22 a little on the moral line -- how things are to be held, and how sonship is to be recognised; exercises reaching on to sonship fully presented: the state in which things are to be before God. Solomon represents that the governing principle now is to be sonship, already present, already expressed. Our brother had something in his mind, held in abeyance, from our previous reading; perhaps he will express it.

Rem. I had in mind the two generations you were speaking of -- all the wealth already brought into the ministry, and which the younger generation inherit, and that which they may add.

J.T. I think it would be a very practical help in view of the many coming in now, younger men able to minister, that it should be made clear that they come into wealth. David says: "Solomon my son is young and tender, and the house that is to be built for Jehovah must be exceeding great in fame and in beauty in all lands: I will therefore make preparation for it". Then he called for Solomon and said: "As for me, my son, I was minded to build a house unto the name of Jehovah my God. But the word of Jehovah came to me saying, Thou hast shed blood abundantly, and hast made great wars: thou shalt not build a house unto my name, for thou hast shed much blood upon the earth in my sight" (verses 7,8). So David is thoroughly self-judged, having accepted the message from Nathan; correspondingly, he would have judged his military course; for that had turned out to be a hindrance to some extent in regard of the house. Great and successful as he was in military exploits, it has turned out to be a hindrance to his entrance on greater things. That is an important thing for those of us who are older, to review our lives, as to whether our service has in any way hindered us, whether we have been unable through it to enter on the more spiritual things; the full spiritual plane that God has in mind for us.

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Then he proceeds to speak further to Solomon: "Now, my son, Jehovah be with thee, that thou mayest prosper, and build the house of Jehovah thy God, as he has said of thee" (verse 11). Then: "And behold, in my affliction I have prepared for the house of Jehovah a hundred thousand talents of gold, and a thousand thousand talents of silver; and of brass and iron without weight, for it is in abundance; and timber and stone have I prepared; and thou shalt add to it. And there are workmen with thee in abundance, hewers and workers of stone and timber, and all manner of skilful men for every kind of work. Of the gold, the silver, and the brass, and the iron, there is no number. Arise and be doing and Jehovah be with thee" (verses 14 - 16). I thought it would be worth noticing the wealth with which Solomon begins, and also whether there is not a corresponding condition now come down to us from the afflictions of others; wealth particularly which those who are coming on share in; they have therefore an immense advantage, but they are to "add to it". They are not simply to keep on in that into which they have come, but to add, each one, something of his own, to what is already accumulated. The number of younger men that are now active gives rise to inquiry as to whether the Lord is continuing on, or whether He is finishing up, completing the dispensation, but in either case, He would have those who are now coming on to be in freshness, and each to add to what there has been.

Ques. Would the inclusion of Moses in this section support what has been said about the moral line?

J.T. I should think it would. A principle attaching to any real ministry is that it is cumulative; it carries down what preceded, particularly in the sense of instruction and example. Moses would represent the authority of God, what is formally commanded; David is moral authority, more what the person is, involving headship.

E.C.B. In its application to ourselves, why could not-David as a man of war build the house?

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J.T. It is a question as to whether a man's service hinders him for use on higher levels. If I take a line and excel in it, even allow some will in it, I may be successful outwardly, but I may be hindering my movement on to higher levels; and God takes on others.

Rem. You mean that there should be the sitting down at the Lord's feet, so that what is added is added in a spiritual way.

J.T. You want to be open for what the Lord may bring in, so that in the service you thought yourself ready for, you may not through it be disqualifying yourself for service of a more spiritual character.

M.W.B. Would that be like specialising on a certain line?

J.T. Yes; I do not think anyone should specialise. There are those who have done it, but they have disqualified themselves for greater things.

Rem. Solomon, later on, when he speaks about it, does not refer to the hindrance, he says that God told David that what he had in his heart was good; he goes on from what had been reached in David's soul (1 Kings 8:18).

J.T. Quite so; David himself enlarges on the hindrance.

J.A.P. How would you distinguish between specialising and gift?

J.T. Gift, of course, involves a certain line of work, but the gift does not cover the whole man. It is true that Ephesians 4:11 states: "he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers"; but then, if you take Paul, he was nothing behind any of the apostles, yet he would do anything needed to be done; he would not confine himself to any particular line of service.

A.J.G. So a son is always greater than his gift or his service.

J.T. Well, that is seen here. Personality is the thing first of all; because personality goes through,

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gift does not. In personality I may develop a great variety of ability in service, and I want to be open and not confine myself to any one line.

Ques. In 2 Chronicles 17:7 - 9 Jehoshaphat sent princes, Levites and priests to teach in all the cities of Judah. Would that support the thought -- the princes coming first?

J.T. Just so; "princes" implies personality.

F.I. Would you say that both Philip and Stephen represent those who had gift and did not allow themselves to be bound by it, but increased in spirituality?

J.T. Yes. They represent men who have purchased "to themselves a good degree" (1 Timothy 3:13). That would mean that they began on low ground and reached a higher plane. If I think unduly of my gift, I may confine myself to it. I am not purchasing, I am thinking of my gift and using it; but if I serve in whatever God brings to me, in whatever my hand finds to do, then I purchase to myself a good degree. So that the whole field is laid open to us in that way. In both Stephen and Philip we see that although they reached great heights in their service, they began as serving tables. Philip is the only one formally called an evangelist in the Scriptures. That would point to what has been said, that he purchased to himself a good degree.

L.E.S. Would the acceptance of the sorrows of the testimony be in view of increased wealth, and result in the affections referred to in the last chapter? David refers there to the affection he had for the house of God, and what he gave for it of his own property.

J.T. Yes; he refers here, not to his affection, but his affliction. He did not enter into affliction exactly to gain wealth, the wealth was the outcome; but giving in affection is another matter. Here it is the outcome of his affliction; the wars, for instance, which we alluded to in chapter 18, wealth came in there. In chapter 29:3 he says, "In my affection for the house of my God I have given of my own property";

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that is more premeditated and formal. "Affection for the house of my God" is a beautiful phrase.

Ques. Would you connect the instruction that David gives to Solomon in chapter 22:12 with Paul's first prayer in Ephesians?

J.T. Yes; it applies specially to the younger men now: "Only, Jehovah give thee wisdom and understanding, and place thee over Israel, and to keep the law of Jehovah thy God. Then shalt thou prosper, if thou takest heed to perform the statutes and ordinances which Jehovah commanded Moses for Israel" (verses 12,13). All that is most practical, and, as being restrictive, it keeps one within bounds and balanced. You are not a law to yourself. The most spiritual man is not a law to himself; however great he may be and successful, he is under orders.

T.H. Speaking of the young men coming into wealth, would that be seen in Saul coming into Antioch?

J.T. Quite so; God was working and many were already added to the Lord there. Besides, he came into all that had been effected through the twelve.

A.B.P. Would Timothy as following Paul, being called to stir up the gift that was in him, and being reminded that he was fully acquainted with Paul's teaching, be in line with what is before us -- co-ordination in the work by the younger men?

J.T. Yes. You can see how Timothy would add to what was there -- great wealth was there. He is to comport himself in regard of that, what he came into. Many who have been successful on certain lines have thrown off restraint. The last general universal sorrowful division that occurred amongst us was really through men throwing off restraint. They were a law to themselves, disregarding the "ordinances which Jehovah commanded Moses for Israel" (verse 13). When men specialise and are successful, often a certain independency arises.

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W.G.T. When you refer to orders, have you in mind divine principles?

J.T. Well, I was referring to what comes out at the introduction of the house of God (Genesis 28). Jacob was under orders, he was not seeking a wife on his own initiative. He was under orders, and that is the principle that runs down in the service of God; we are always to be under divine direction. The spirit of control strikingly marks the book of Acts. However great a man may be, such as Saul of Tarsus, he is to be under orders; and at first not from the Lord directly, but through others: "Enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do" (Acts 9:6). That balances us; however great we may think ourselves, we can never be independent of the brethren.

A.G. It says "the sons of David were the first at the king's hand" (chapter 18:17).

J.T. Quite so -- that bears on sonship.

M.W.B. In what way would you encourage those who are relatively younger in acquiring acquaintance with the substance of the truth into the light of which they come?

J.T. I should think the instruction in our section would help as to that. Everything is under control. You might say it is a departmental situation; so that we have persons into whose hands the treasures are committed -- the dedicated things. For instance, in chapter 27:25, we have "over the king's treasures" was so-and-so. I think that would mean that we become acquainted with that side of things, the elements of conservation, the elements among us that value what there is of God. They are really valued; not simply to have the books, but the inheritance brought down spiritually. It is not the books only, but the Spirit has brought down things to us, and there is the element of control conserving the wealth; that is the thought we should lay hold of. Take the position in Acts 1the upper room was a conservatory, one may say, of all

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that had preceded. The Lord had given much through the apostles; they were all there by name: Mary, the Lord's mother was there; also certain other women; and those who had seen the Lord go up are spoken of as going there. They are, as it were, bringing their treasures where they would be valued and preserved. Take such treasures elsewhere, to the greatest religious denomination; they would not be rightly valued, nor cared for; but the upper room represents that in which the things of God are treasured. We need to be there.

D.L.H. Paul wrote to Timothy: "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things" (2 Timothy 2:7). And he was to communicate to others that which he had learned through the apostle.

J.T. "Commit thou to faithful men" (2 Timothy 2:2); that is the idea. Timothy followed up what he came into, and was to commit it to faithful men; thus it would be preserved.

D.L.H. Is not that the way the former wealth is conveyed, carried on and added to today?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. The conservatory, for the treasures, was in the upper room, as over against the temple. The apostles served for a while, in grace to Israel, in the temple, but not as having a treasury there; those ruling in the temple would not conserve the teaching of Christ. The upper room would be wholly for the Lord; it was a place "where were staying both Peter, and John, and James" (Acts 1:13), and the other apostles, as well as others acquainted with Christ. Anything brought in there contrary to Christ or derogatory to Christ would be immediately expelled; but anything in the nature of a treasure would be conserved, by whomsoever it may have come.

Ques. Does the thought of charge enter into all this? David charged Solomon, the Lord charged the apostles, and Timothy was charged by Paul. Is it a question of responsibility in this sense?

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J.T. It is. We have these men who were over the treasures. "This Shelomith and his brethren were over all the treasures of the dedicated things, which king David, and the chief fathers, the captains over thousands and hundreds, and the captains of the host, had dedicated (from the wars and out of the spoils they had dedicated them, to maintain the house of Jehovah), and all that Samuel the seer, and Saul the son of Kish, and Abner the son of Ner, and Joab the son of Zeruiah had dedicated: all that was dedicated was under the hand of Shelomith and of his brethren" (chapter 26:26 - 28). That, it seems to me, is what the young brothers are coming into; the dedicated things and treasure, that have come down, by whomsoever they came, even by a Joab. Gold is gold wherever it is. Let us name the things, so that we watch it and stand for it; if anybody would discredit it, contend for it; every item of divine treasure is to be valued and preserved.

Eu.R. Does Matthew 2:11 help? "And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh".

J.T. Quite so: that is an addition.

J.S.E. I should like a little more help as to this question of being under orders.

J.T. I think it is an important suggestion that runs down to us. If any man is to be free from restraint on the part of the others, it would be a man seeking a wife. Jacob was a man advanced in years, but he is under orders as to a wife; and, as moving in obedience to his parents, the house of God comes into view. He is moving definitely under the orders of his parents.

N.K.M. We see that very definitely too in Abraham's servant.

J.T. Yes; he does not vary a hair's breadth from the orders of Abraham.

Rem. The mind of the Lord is found amongst the saints, and that is always to be sought.

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J.T. That is the principle of the assembly: everything is there, "in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" (Colossians 2:3). Each of us as loyal to Christ, as lovers of God, and lovers of Christ are to be on the watch that nothing should slip away from us, but rather that we should add to what there is.

Now, as regards this section, it is a most important one because it assures balance; speaking simply, the departmental system is essential to order and prosperity. The number twenty-four here, which permeates all, comes not only under David, but also Solomon -- not that Solomon is active, he is not properly seen as active in this book; he is passive, but he is there; he is now on the throne. The number twenty-four is to preclude rivalry and interference with other men's lines. Each has his own line and as of the number twenty-four, I am amenable to divine manipulation, divine orders; I am ready for anything that is of God: "By love serve one another" (Galatians 5:13).

A.M.P. Why is it twenty-four, not twelve?

J.T. It is increase of amenableness in sub-divisions, I think. Twelve is the most divisible of all numbers up to itself, and twenty-four is double that; and, as has often been remarked, two dispensations are involved in christianity: "upon whom the ends of the ages are come" (1 Corinthians 10:11). Love has its greatest place in the assembly; and that is why, I think, the assembly is said to have "the glory of God" (Revelation 21:10), because love has such a place; there is such an intelligent use of love, love acting in a divinely intelligent way: it is glory -- it implies the glory of God. It is the "way of more surpassing excellence" (1 Corinthians 12:31).

F.W.W. What would be the application for us today of David and Solomon on the throne at the same time?

J.T. It is progression here; it is a mark of progress in the instruction of the book. It really refers to advanced apprehension in the saints of the things of

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God. Sonship, presented as a matter of light in chapter 17, is seen in a concrete way in Solomon in chapter 22, only, he is "young and tender", not doing anything, but under a charge. In chapter 23 he is on the throne with David; that is, the old and the young in administration together. On our side it is a point reached in the history of the testimony; especially that the young are needed, and on their side they cannot get along without the old. A young man might feel that the older brethren are in his way. Love would not take this attitude, but would rightly value the older brethren. And on the other hand, the elder brethren would rightly value the young. All are to "bind on humility towards one another" (1 Peter 5:5).

Ques. Does the Lord identify Himself with both in Matthew's gospel -- the ass and the colt?

J.T. He does. In Matthew it is two; there are two blind men at Jericho instead of one: that is, two persons testifying to the truth of the Person of Christ as known at that moment. They are blind men, but they cry, "Lord, Son of David" (Matthew 20:30), not 'Jesus of Nazareth'; that is, two blind men testifying to the truth specially applying at that time. The section in 1 Chronicles before us fits just where it is in this sense. David has placed Solomon on the throne; we want to understand the section as thus begun. The two blind men referred to furnish the initiative in that section. Following on that in chapter 21 they are, as it were, both employed; in what? Carrying the testimony. That is the principle; the blind men have added to what is there. It is addition in the faith; they have added to what is there and all is to be carried forward; so the ass and the colt carry it forward -- the old brother and the young brother. It is safe that way. As Christ the King is drawing near to Jerusalem, everything needed was to be there. "It is the city of the great King" (Matthew 5:35); the great King is being carried into it in testimony, and these two are thus employed;

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the ass and the colt fulfilling the word in Zechariah: "Say to the daughter of Zion, Behold thy King cometh to thee, meek, and mounted upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass", (Matthew 21:5). Then the crowds cry: "Hosanna to the Son of David; blessed be he who comes in the name of the Lord" (verse 9). All that is carried through into Jerusalem; but how will He be received in Jerusalem? There must be completion to what has been introduced. The "city was moved, saying, Who is this? And the crowds said, This is Jesus the prophet who is from Nazareth of Galilee" (verses 10,11); but He is more than that -- the blind men have said more than that. The Lord is in the temple opening their eyes, and the chief priests and scribes complain; but what about? -- the children; the children are carrying on what was started by the blind men: "Hosanna to the Son of David" (verse 15). They are maintaining the testimony as carried in. We can see now the accumulative idea in the testimony: two blind men; the ass and the colt; and then the children; the thing is completed. The Lord heard the children, and He says in answer to the complaint of the priests and the scribes: "Have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" (verse 16). The testimony for the moment is perfected, that is the idea; the truth as developing is carried through.

Ques. Rehoboam lost the kingdom through failing to understand the principle you referred to as to young men: in consulting with the young men rather than the old. Did he not lose the kingdom through failing to understand David and Solomon reigning together in principle?

J.T. Just so. He took counsel with those he had been brought up with. The old men who stood before Solomon were wiser than the young men with whom he had been brought up. At this juncture David and Solomon on the throne together is a safe position. It is divine ordering.

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H.W.S. "David commanded all the princes of Israel to help Solomon" (chapter 22:17). What is the force of that?

J.T. That would be from their side: those who have acquired a princely reputation; their side would be to support the young man: "David commanded all the princes of Israel to help Solomon his son, saying, Is not Jehovah your God with you? and has he not given you rest on every side?" (chapter 22:17,18). That would be their responsibility; so that whatever the old brethren have acquired in reputation and wealth, they must use to promote what God is bringing in to succeed them.

H.M.S. Is there a comparison between this and Paul and Timothy -- a younger man to carry on?

J.T. Yes. Paul had directed Timothy in the second letter to commit to faithful men what he had heard from Paul, and that they should "teach others also". But the point is to see that the truth is carried down intact, not to let anything slip. And I am to "add to it". I shall not add to it if I do not value what is there and make the most of it.

W.H. There was not only treasure and wealth present, but skilful men, too; "add to it" includes all that.

J.T. Yes; Solomon would have all. David says they were with him there. It would be for him to know how to use these men and not to assume at once to know better. "And there are workmen with thee in abundance" (verse 15).

W.H. It says later that David supplied "gold for things of gold" (chapter 29:2); as if the material was there, but had to be formed in different vessels; would the skill come in in that connection?

J.T. Quite so; and the subsequent history brings out, in this respect, wonderful results. Solomon we shall see later, taking up the attitude of being a little child; God gave him largeness of heart and wisdom,

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and he had men who could do things, and he employed them to do things with the greatest possible results.

Ques. Chapter 24:4 says: "And there were more head-men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar, and thus were they divided: of the sons of Eleazar there were sixteen heads of fathers' houses, and eight of the sons of Ithamar according to their fathers' houses". Is it not a beautiful way in which the sixteen and eight serve together?

J.T. That brings out that love is at the bottom of all this -- no rivalry at all, we go on together: "yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence" (1 Corinthians 12:31). I believe these chapters are to show that; the wonderful results that must accrue because the principles we have been speaking of were at work.

W.G.T. Does this involve service Godward and manward?

J.T. Yes, it applied both ways. We may see that the whole year, every month, was looked after by a son, in nearly every case; to provide food each month; superintendents to provide the food for Solomon's house (see 1 Kings 4:7). So here, we have in chapter 27, in David's ordering: "And these are the children of Israel after their number, the chief fathers and captains of thousands and hundreds, and their officers that served the king in every matter of the divisions, which came in and went out month by month throughout the months of the year; in every division were twenty-four thousand" (verse 1). So that there is wonderful ordering in a departmental way, so to speak. All is in love: "by love serve one another" (Galatians 5:13). That is the way of surpassing excellence. No one has any feelings of rivalry as to this; it is all by appointment, and the number twenty-four perfectly divisible without the slightest cause of offence. David and Solomon could direct in person in any one of these departments without fear of causing the sense of rivalry. One is

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ready to do whatever one's hand finds to do as set in this ordering.

Rem. In connection with Moses and Joshua, Moses was told he could not enter the land, but he suggested that Jehovah would bring forth a man who would go in and out with the people: there was no sense of rivalry with him. The suggestion came because of his love for the people.

J.T. That is the principle. We have been remarking that David failed to enter on higher levels because of something that hampered him. The same is true of Moses, and it is very solemn that any one of us may disqualify himself for higher levels because of the way he has carried on his service. The example of Moses and David in desiring young men in the service is to be noticed and followed. On the other hand, the extremes to which those great servants went, under certain circumstances, causing them serious limitations, are to be carefully observed, especially by young men. Let everything be done in love (1 Corinthians 16:14).

L.E.S. Would Philippians 2:1 - 4 apply here? "If ... there be any comfort in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and compassions, fulfil my joy, that ye may think the same thing, having the same love, joined in soul, thinking one thing; let nothing be in the spirit of strife or vain glory, but, in lowliness of mind, each esteeming the other as more excellent than themselves; regarding not each his own qualities, but each those of others also".

J.T. Quite so. It is peculiarly fitting in that epistle, which goes on to say, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" (verse 5). You are made to feel that to get on to the higher levels of which we have been speaking you need to follow Him in His descending perfection.

R.O.S. Would that mean keeping "the royal law ... Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (James 2:8)?

J.T. Quite so.

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J.H.B. What is the reason for the direction as to courses in chapters 24, 25, and 27?

J.T. It is a question of understanding what the numeral twenty-four means. Why does it come in here? It is just set in these chapters and carried through to the book of Revelation: why is it? It is really a question of love -- the book of Revelation shows that it goes through -- the saints set in this divisible relation to one another, so that headship can operate. There is no thought of rivalry. If there be rivalry, then the service will not go on; it will be disjointed. Love comes through into the book of Revelation; and hence in the heavenly city we get the wonderful statement, "having the glory of God" (Revelation 21:10). It goes through, leading up to headship. David mentions in the last chapter of this book that God is Head; His headship can operate, can function in this condition of things as love is operating. So there is the result in headship in Christ, who is "head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:22,23). The body, the assembly, is great enough for that; the fulness of Christ works out in it. You could not have headship functioning without the body; and it is now marked as having power for "its self-building up in love" (Ephesians 4:16).

W.H. Is there any suggestion of sovereignty in that, of the twenty-four sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun, those of Heman, fourteen, are said to be given of God?

J.T. No doubt. Chapter 25 is really more a propos of our inquiry than any of these chapters. It is the most refined as to the divine service. What is so striking is that the chapter begins with the military thought: "And David and the captains of the host separated for the service those of the sons of Asaph and of Heman and of Jeduthun who were to prophesy with harps and lutes and cymbals". Now it seems to me that in coming on to this high ground there is help in comparing

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what we have already had before, how David in his successes in military service had disqualified himself for building the house. The military side is brought in here as perfectly compatible with higher levels. If under control, if I have to fight in love for the truth, I can turn round and sing. If I am contending "earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 3), I can sing. Jude was going to write about "our common salvation", involving the gospel, but he had to turn aside to "contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints". Well, you can sing in that. In our chapter we have the military in thorough correspondence with the service of God in its highest setting. They are operating here: "And David and the captains of the host separated for the service those of the sons of Asaph and of Heman and of Jeduthun who were to prophesy with harps and lutes and cymbals". It is not only singing, but under their fathers these sons, given of God, we may say, are proficient on these remarkable instruments, in prophesying.

Eu.R. What is the import for us in the fact that David gives these directions, but the service was actually inaugurated by Solomon?

J.T. The lesson here is that I can sit down and write a letter to defend the truth or expose error; do it with all my might, and at the same time I can sing. Your feelings are not affected, you are not carried beyond yourself in assumption in anything you do, so that you can sing. If any could have been resentful of their persecutors it was Paul and Silas. They suffered most unreasonably, but as in the prison their feelings are right: they maintain that in spite of the sufferings; in praying, they were praising God with singing (Acts 16:25).

A.B.P. The Lord Jesus was pre-eminently a Man of war at Calvary, but the "praises of Israel" (Psalm 22:3), were in His heart.

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J.T. Beautiful! Such praises were indeed in His heart! They would soon be heard in the assembly (verse 22).

E.T.S. Jude at the close of his epistle, after his onslaught, closes with that beautiful note of praise, "But to him that is able to keep you without stumbling, and to set you with exultation blameless before his glory, to the only God our Saviour, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, might, and authority, from before the whole age, and now, and to all the ages. Amen".

J.T. A beautiful finish to a militant epistle.

M.W.B. In 1 Chronicles 25:2,6 we have "according to the king's order", the thought of the direction of the king; is that coming under the influence of Christ as Head, or is that the impulse of spiritual sensibilities?

J.T. It is coming under the impulse of Christ, I should say, only it does not go quite so far as headship; it is direction -- 'at the hand' of the king. The bringing in of the king, princes, and captains, the king directing the music, would show how everything is completely balanced now in David's soul. If he is a soldier, he is not going beyond what is right for the soldier; and if he is doing anything in the divine realm, he is doing it aright; his spirit is right.

L.O.L. Is not prophecy generally connected with an instrument? Elisha called for a minstrel (2 Kings 3:15), and in 1 Corinthians 14:7 it speaks of "what is piped or harped".

J.T. Here we have the instruments mentioned. These great singers are prophesying. It is not simply a question of gratifying our taste for music, but thinking for God. My conscience should support the hymn while I am singing it.

P.H.H. Does Asaph bring this in particularly in Psalm 72, where Christ is seen in His sonship, and in Psalm 73, fitting in with what it is to be in the presence

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of God? Does that stand connected at all with this line of things?

J.T. I think it does; he is alluded to here. It seems to me that God would help us in regard to the hymn-singing; we are inclined to sing to our natural taste, the tune affecting us more than the words. The tune is part of the service, certainly, but there could be no prophesying in the tune, it is in the words; that is to say, the words are words of truth. Paul said, "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding" (1 Corinthians 14:15).

Ques. Does the prophetic thought explain why they are called "songs of Jehovah"?

J.T. No doubt it enters into it. It is remarkable that the prophetic thought is brought in here. It is to enter into our service in the assembly. God's part and place in the service should never be lacking; God having to do with us, at times challenging us.

N.K.M. You refer to the conscience as affected by the prophesying in the singing?

J.T. Yes; there is no danger of corruption through mere sentimental feeling if the prophesying be present.

P.L. Does it link with Colossians 3:16? -- "in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another, in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to God".

J.T. Yes. The Lord would challenge us in our songs, whether we are just ministering to ourselves in the singing. Although Ephesians 5:19 says, "speaking to yourselves", it is also to the Lord, and the thanksgiving is to God; prophesying brings in God as present in His service.

J.J. Are these songs included in the compass of Scripture or are they what the singers composed themselves?

J.T. That is another matter: take the psalms in the third book, to which our brother alluded. Asaph writes almost every one of them; I suppose he would use

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some of them in the services contemplated in 1 Chronicles 25.

H.C. I suppose we should not sing hymns of a prophetic character at the Supper?

J.T. They have place in God's service generally, as seen in our chapter. The best hymns we have make a great deal of God being present in the singing.

M.W.B. Perhaps we do not clearly grasp the idea of prophecy in this connection; will you say a little more as to it?

J.T. Well, it is a very striking thing that this is the thought: "David and the captains of the host separated for the service those of the sons of Asaph and of Heman and of Jeduthun who were to prophesy with harps and lutes and cymbals". It is a remarkable thing that it comes from David and the captains; how thoroughly free they are now as to the service of God! They are equal to this, that all is to be maintained in the spirit of prophecy. David would no doubt say, If I maintain the spirit of prophecy in my military operations, I should have a right spirit and not go to excess.

Ques. Is there a link between this and the scene in Acts 4:23,24? "And having been let go, they came to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. And they, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God"; and afterwards, the wonderful unity that marks the saints is seen.

J.T. A good example; and how God honoured them!

Rem. In Luke 1:76 Zacharias says: "And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest"; and immediately after that it says: "And the child grew" (verse 80).

J.T. You have in mind that for the prophetic ministry there is growth.

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GOD'S INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS (5)

1 Chronicles 28:1 - 19; 1 Chronicles 29:10 - 19

J.T. We may all clearly observe that these chapters form a definite section in the book, having the character of completion. The early part of chapter 28 stresses that thought of divine choice. As definite work in us progresses to its completion, it will fit perfectly with divine counsel. All the results of God's work must fit in with His counsel; so that as the work is examined it will be observed that it conforms with God's own desire and choice. In the book of Ezekiel, where we have perhaps more about divine measurement than in any book, it is measurement of what exists, of what had come to exist in the work of God; not what should be, but what is. I think these chapters, as we look into them, will impress us with all this; the completion of God's work in us has in mind perfect correspondence with His counsels. There will not be, there cannot be, any discrepancy at all. So David is enlarging here on the divine choice, it is entirely in keeping with God's work. This is confirmed principally as to himself, and, inferentially, also in Solomon: for his instructions and exhortations have in mind that it should also be in Solomon.

A.M.P. Would it be diverting to ask about the tillage of the field in the previous chapter?

J.T. You allude to chapter 27:26: "And over them that worked in the field for tillage of the ground was Ezri the son of Chelub". Then we have, "And over the vineyards was Shimei the Ramathite; and over what was in the vineyards of stores of wine was Zabdi the Shiphmite; and over the olive-trees and the sycamore-trees that were in the lowland was Baal-hanan the Gederite; and over the cellars of oil was Joash". The section continues to the end of verse 31. That the Spirit of God should extend to these details is very

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suggestive, as also the superintendence over us all, viewed as what is to be cultivated for divine results. We have to apply it to the divine field in cultivation now. Jacob was spoken of in his blessing as "a field which the Lord hath blessed" (Genesis 27:27). He was potentially that, but had to be cultivated. The first section of chapter 27 gives the twelve military divisions of twenty-four thousand each. Then the princes of the tribes are mentioned (verses 16 - 22). Then those over the king's treasures, storehouses and towers (verse 25); and after these, the overseers of agriculture, then those over the herds and flocks (verses 26 - 31); all having in mind that full results should be secured. All this departmental instruction is seen from the beginning of chapter 23 to the end of chapter 27; and the Spirit of God brings out how thorough David was that there should be a full result for God. We have in the end of chapter 27 certain men mentioned: "And Jonathan, David's uncle, was counsellor, a wise man, and a scribe; and Jehiel the son of Hachmoni was with the king's sons". We have an important thought introduced there, that is, companionship for the sons. We have also such a man as Ahithophel mentioned here, all from the side of good: "Ahithophel was the king's counsellor; and Hushai the Archite was the king's friend". The whole position is mentioned from the standpoint of care in the king; and on this ground the succeeding chapters are based. Here we have advanced on to higher levels, that is, we come on to the realm of divine choice and quality in what is provided, reaching even to the pattern of the house with its variety of features received "by the Spirit". It is in writing, too, so that there should be no question at all at any time: "All this said David, in writing, by Jehovah's hand upon me, instructing as to all the works of the pattern".

M.W.B. Would there be the contrast in that respect, chapter 27 concluding the issue on the moral line, and this being more on the spiritual line and divine purpose?

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J.T. I think that is what is in mind; how the work of God eventuates in perfection, in complete correspondence with His counsels, and what He had in mind before anything was effected at all.

F.C.H. Would "the footstool of our God", in verse 2, bear on this thought of completion?

J.T. Quite so, descending even to that; God provided for, even to that extent -- a footstool.

A.J.G. Is the emphasis given to divine choice intended to add a richness in the service of God?

J.T. I think so. We ought to arrive in our souls at a sense, not only of doing things well, ministering to God, but that we answer to His choice, for all must come back to that: "For of him, and through him, and for him are all things" (Romans 11:36). Whatever any one of us is, or the assembly is, it is the outcome of divine choice, divine selection; hence the pattern here.

T.H. What is involved in David standing on his feet?

J.T. You feel how suitable it is in dealing with such matters that it should be so, that our old age should not prevent us taking up this attitude, because he was an old man, weak, according to 1 Kings. If you compare the narrative in 1 Kings, David was a very old man, not exactly in years, for he was only seventy; but the immensity of the affairs he had attended to, I suppose, promoted old age. Here he is superior to all that; he is not behind in the position: he is not seen as a decrepit old man; he is in full vigour.

Ques. Do you see the same thought in the day of recovery as well as the day of inauguration? Nehemiah 9:5, says, "Stand up, bless Jehovah your God from eternity to eternity. And let men bless the name of thy glory, which is exalted above all blessing and praise". And then it goes on to say: "Thou art the Same, Jehovah Elohim, who didst choose Abram and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; and foundest his heart faithful

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before thee, and madest the covenant with him ... and thou hast performed thy words, for thou art righteous".

J.T. It shows how thorough the recovery was. Thoroughness is a word I think we should keep in mind. In this book, at whatever point it may be, the mind of God was reached thoroughly.

Ques. Would you say a word on "my brethren and my people", in verse 2?

J.T. "And king David stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren and my people!" It is the relation of the people to him. "My people" would be a kingly word; but "my brethren" is very beautiful as the very words of our Lord Jesus: "Go to my brethren" (John 20:17); that is not a kingly word, it is a family word. I suppose David is in the spirit of the instruction given as regards the king in Israel; that he was to be "from among thy brethren", (Deuteronomy 17:15). It is a greater thought, in a sense, than kingship.

Ques. Would it be right to say that the list of persons thus addressed gave David a warrant to address them thus? In the first verse we have the thought of princes three times and then the captains. Would the spirituality thus represented enter into the thought of "my brethren"?

J.T. There is a sense of equality with David, and Christ would have it so with us. We have words intimating the thought of equality in John's gospel, showing that we may speak to the Lord, with reverence, on family terms; and then, too, of course, under other circumstances, subjection and reverence. A princely condition would afford us liberty of address. The message, "Go to my brethren", as received by them, would without doubt qualify the disciples for the Lord's entrance amongst them, so that they are glad when they see Him. There would be, I am sure, a sense of nearness, a mutual feeling on His side and on theirs, as He came in amongst them; so He says, "As

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the Father sent me forth, I also send you" (John 20:21); and "he breathed into them", as much as to say, I have confidence in you.

W.G.T. In John 9:37 the Lord says, "It is he that talketh with thee". Would that be intimacy? -- and then, "he worshipped him".

J.T. Quite so: the Lord would bring the man to that; he was worthy of it as shown by what he had been in testimony. He was cast out, and when the Lord heard that he was cast out He found him, and "he said to him, Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he" (John 9:35 - 37). "With thee" is a touch of familiarity. The Lord would never be slow to set us free thus as we are equal to it, as our state would preclude any thought of irreverence.

Eu.R. Joseph said: "Tell my father of all my glory" (Genesis 45:13); then he wept on Benjamin's neck, "And he kissed all his brethren, and wept upon them; and after that his brethren talked with him" (verse 15). Would that be our reciprocating?

J.T. Just so. Our chapter introduces great richness of feeling, and David proceeds, as standing upon his feet, to say, "I had in my heart to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of Jehovah and for the footstool of our God"; he proceeds further to say that he is precluded from what is in his heart, and continues to extend out to Solomon. He shows that the idea of choice had gone beyond him: but he had come into it, chosen before his brethren; "Jehovah the God of Israel chose me". He had the thought of God's pleasure in him; he was not robbed of it, but it extended to Solomon, too.

F.H.L. There are eight groups assembled here to the king; I suppose the thought of sonship is underlying

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all, although Solomon is not specifically mentioned as coming?

J.T. Yes, he is pre-eminently the son.

Ques. Do we get the idea of equality in Matthew 17:26,27 in the expression, "Then are the sons free", and then "for me and thee"?

J.T. A very good example of what we are saying, for Matthew reserves a section for the personnel of the new system. In it he quotes the Lord, saying, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28). It is a question of personality. Mark and Luke make more of the kingdom of God, but in Matthew it is the Son of man coming in His kingdom, and the thought runs through to the end of chapter 17. It really begins in chapter 16 of Matthew, where the Lord raises the question as to what people were saying about Him as to His Person, not simply what they were thinking, but what they were saying. The Lord would put it upon us to be speaking of Him in this sense: let the truth of His Person be the theme of our conversation. Chapter 17 is almost wholly occupied with the theme of personality, bringing the disciples on to the thought of sonship, "me and thee" -- very beautiful.

Rem. In the following chapter of Matthew the thought of the "little child" corresponds with Solomon in the next book.

J.T. Just so.

A.J.G. Does the thought of choice involve not only sovereignty, but the thought of God's pleasure in what the subjects of His love should be?

J.T. God has His own likes, His own tastes. Wisdom of course enters into it, but we have especially here an illustration of God's choosing; that is, the work of God had made David worthy of it.

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Ques. Would this lay the foundation for what you term masculine love? I mean, this apprehension of what has been said as to our equality?

J.T. These chapters would indicate that it is reached in David. The end of chapter 17 shows that as he sat before Jehovah, he was actuated by this: love for God in man, in the light of sonship. The love of sonship must be masculine; the collective thought in the assembly, of course, is feminine.

J.S.E. In what way are you viewing David typically at this juncture?

J.T. As the full result of the work of God, which in us has in view the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4). Of course, you cannot connect the thought of the work of God in this sense with Christ. He is a divine Person in manhood, and is as Man our standard. These chapters are to show the work of God in its completion, perfection in so far as David went in his administration. What a man is must work out in his administration, in what God gives him to do. David rises with the work. This chapter shows how he is thoroughly in keeping, through the work of God, with the divine thoughts.

J.S.E. Yesterday morning you referred to Solomon as subordinate to David and now you refer to completion: is it completion in David himself?

J.T. Yes, and the result of his influence. The whole thought is outlined in the account here. In chapter 29:20 we have worship, and then the result in the people in verses 21, 22; and then, Solomon, not Solomon by himself, but as the completion of David's work and influence. "And Solomon sat on the throne of Jehovah as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves to Solomon the king" (verses 23,24). All that is viewed as the outcome of David's administration, what he was himself, and

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what his administration effected. A man's work must stand in relation to himself, the outcome of what the man is. Under God, there will be correspondence between what the minister's work is and the minister himself. So Solomon as seen here is to bring out the result of David's work and influence generally.

Ques. Is there often a difficulty in laying hold of these thoughts because of defective administration?

J.T. "Like people, like priest" (Hosea 4:9). What the minister is, the people will be; so Paul constantly stresses himself. It was, in one sense, I am sure, a trial to him to have to do it. The Spirit of God causes him to do it as a minister, so that his children should not be malformed. You must compare the workmanship with the workman.

S.B. Would you make your remarks as to masculine love a little clearer?

J.T. It arose earlier when Jonathan loved David; his love for David is greatly stressed, and David says that it was "passing the love of women" (2 Samuel 1:26). It had its own distinction; and, I think, from that remark of David's, that the thought of masculine love is to be maintained in our souls; it should be connected with the sons of God. The other side is the saints viewed femininely as of the assembly; it is a question of love for Christ in the assembly. So I think sonship has precedence over the assembly; it is a higher thought, because Christ Himself has part in sonship and leads the saints; He gives character to it in the saints: so in chapter 27:32, "Jehiel the son of Hachmoni was with the king's sons". He must have been a man of peculiar influence for good. David would not have placed him there unless his influence was to be good.

Ques. Would Hebrews 1:8,9 bear on it? "As to the Son", He says, "Thou hast loved righteousness and hast hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy companions".

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J.T. Yes; it is on account of what He was as Son.

J.S.E. Would the scripture in Romans 8:29 as to being "conformed to the image of his Son", involve this question of equality?

J.T. Yes, and the masculine side that we have been speaking of. The epistle to the Romans shows how a believer reaches the point where he has authority over his mind: "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (chapter 7:25). Whatever God's law may be he instinctively serves it. Chapter 8 shows that that man is brought into sonship; but the moral element must be there, it is a question of manhood.

G.E. "I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will" (Acts 13:22).

J.T. That is the word: it is what God finds; so that what He finds on the moral line enters into what He has on the family line. The family is purpose, but what I am morally is a result of God's work in me. The family is purpose; so as in it I cry, "Abba, Father", having received sonship.

J.T.S. Does this thought rise up to Ephesians 1:4, "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world"? And is David leading up to that when he says: "And David blessed Jehovah"; and then, "And David said to all the congregation, Bless now Jehovah your God" (verse 20)?

J.T. Yes, we can see how our chapters are linking us on with Ephesians. Ephesians 1 is the chapter for sonship: God has predestinated us to that; it is the supreme thought, but the moral element must enter into that. Romans brings out what one is as the result of the work of God; and we are made equal to it, not only by the moral work, but by the "spirit of adoption"(Romans 8:15). We are taken into the realm of the King's sons, and masculine love must go with that. It is all to be seen there, because of sonship. The same persons are seen in a collective sense as

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representing the feminine thought; so in that same chapter (1 Samuel 18), where Jonathan is spoken of as loving David, we have the women, too, coming out with their praises for David.

R.O.S. "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). Is that masculine love?

J.T. It is always masculine love in Christ.

E.J.McB. I was wondering whether David is coming to the recognition of the wisdom and love of God in appointing Solomon; whether he was arriving at the thing in his own soul. God had set him aside and brought in Solomon, and he sees the wisdom of that. He had "affection" for the house and gets the pattern of it.

J.T. Quite so. The governmental side has to be borne in mind, but Solomon is really the extension of David. Solomon, in the antitype, is Christ glorified in heaven: what He was down here, but now seen in another condition and position; so that what He was down here is, you might say, morally greater, if one might venture to make comparisons.

P.L. The moral is greater than the official.

J.T. That is the point: Solomon is put into the shade in the New Testament to bring out the moral qualities that shone in Christ. "A greater than Solomon"; of course Christ was literally greater than David, but you do not get this formally stated. In the prophets Christ is called David.

M.W.B. With regard to the moral basis, and reaching sonship on that line, does the expression "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (Romans 8:14), rather imply the characteristic that warrants the thought of pleasure? God's pleasure in sonship? There are moral qualities that suit His pleasure. I was noticing that divine pleasure is connected with David; is that the moral basis for the sonship formally expressed in Solomon?

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J.T. Quite so; so that the "spirit of adoption" in us carries a moral element underneath, which gives lustre to it while we are down here, as taking on sonship.

Eu.R. What is the instruction for us in what you emphasised in connection with Christ in David?

J.T. Solomon is the full thought of Christ as He is today, not what He was even in the forty days. I suppose the Davidic character enters into the forty days; at any rate, the Spirit of God makes the distinction, in saying that we are to be conformed "to his body of glory" (Philippians 3:21). It is not only His body, His condition spiritually, but glorious, as it is now. I suppose David in remarking here about Solomon being chosen has in mind that the choice goes further than himself: "and of all my sons (for Jehovah has given me many sons), he has chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of Jehovah over Israel". He introduces the word "chosen" there and goes on to say, "And he said to me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts; for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father". He is chosen as David's son; he is the extension of David in sonship, as God's choice, but then Jehovah has chosen him to be His son. I think we have to notice the difference between David's son being chosen as king, and his being chosen to be Jehovah's son. This, I think, would link us on with Christ as He is now. Whilst David goes all the way as to suffering, and I believe that, in the present time in the assembly, the Davidic character of Christ is to be traced; there is what Christ is as chosen to be God's Son. Of course, as in manhood, Christ is always that: I want to guard the Person of Christ; but I am only speaking as to how Scripture presents things. David presents the suffering side to reach an end, whereas Solomon is the counterpart in heaven for the working out of divine thoughts: so Solomon is chosen to be Jehovah's son for the accomplishment of divine thoughts; in our days, the Father's

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thoughts. He says, "Father, ... glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee" (John 17:1).

J.C. David's failure having resulted in his not being able to build the house, he falls back on the sovereignty of God.

J.T. He has not lost the sense of divine choice, but the thought of choice goes further than sovereignty. Another side of the position of Christ has to be brought out, namely, what He is as in heaven, and that He is there to carry out divine thoughts, to bring them to full fruition.

J.J. You spoke about the pattern previously and what was abstract: do you regard the pattern as an abstract thought, and is the filling out of that seen in Ephesians?

J.T. Yes; the pattern is what must be, what God has determined; it links on with His sovereignty. What we are occupied with now is how the work of God conforms to that; so in Ezekiel what we get is not exactly the pattern, but the thing in reality and substantiality. The first item mentioned is a wall, very thick, a substantial thing; so the heavenly city corresponds -- not what should be, but what is -- thoroughly in accord with His mind. It is His glory: the measuring reed is gold in Revelation 21:15.

J.J. Would it be the same with Paul in Ephesians 3, thoroughly versed in the mystery?

J.T. That is the idea, a man who knows. The Spirit of God can take up a man who knows, and enlarge His thoughts through him.

Ques. Do I understand that the complete thought according to the counsels of God is seen in Christ as seated in heavenly places, but the moral work is what God effects down here in the scene of the enemy's power? The full and complete thought is seen in Christ in heaven, and, I suppose, the saints in heaven too, but the moral work underlies all that.

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J.T. Quite so: Ephesians is anticipative, "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6). It is in order that in the ages to come God might set forth what are His thoughts in us -- it is all as anticipative.

Eu.R. Did I understand that David is sonship reached according to Romans, and Solomon according to Ephesians?

J.T. Yes; that is, in a general way.

Ques. Would you say that we are on different ground here? That is, David in chapter 22 is a man of war who has "shed blood abundantly, and has made great wars" (verse 8); there is excess in that, but here, verse 3, it is "a man of war, and hast shed blood". Is there a difference here?

J.T. Well, yes, but he is carrying forward the limitation attaching to him. He has not lost the sense of choice; and it is a most important thing, I think, that we do not lose our sense of choice in anything that happens; let it have its full scope with us, God would have it so. He chose "me", he says (verse 4). But the choice of Solomon goes further, and accomplishes the divine mind in the building. The building must be very interesting to God; this pattern of the house is a great honour conferred upon David, showing that God would go to the limit in honouring him. It is his thought, but another is to build; that is, Solomon.

A.B.P. Would David link on with the word at the baptism of Jesus? "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight" (Matthew 3:17); and Solomon with, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (John 3:35)?

J.T. Quite so; "all things"; and then "raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4): all the affection of the Father active in regard to Christ as having entered death. He was "raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father", involving an infiniteness of love, that is now reflected

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in Christ where He is above. That is the choice, what Christ is as above; not only as raised, but as in heaven, One who has ascended. What glory attached to His movements as He entered up there! and, on the other hand, what movements of affection on the part of God! He has the Object of His choice above, and now all operations are from that centre. So Peter has to be brought into the thought in Acts 10. Peter had been working on lower ground, but the vessel, as a great sheet knit at the four corners coming down means that now all is from heaven, and all that results from the operations from that centre, goes up: the full thought of God is thus secured.

P.H.H. Does John 17:1, "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee", connect with the Solomon character of Christ?

J.T. Yes; involving more than any creature can enter into, because He goes on to say, "And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". In dwelling upon Solomon as a type, we are on ground peculiarly attaching to Christ, not only as become Man, but as with God. Our Lord has the same status above as He had before incarnation, and He has gone back to that. What a day it was when He went up there! and now all operations are coming from heaven and the results go back there. The vessel in Acts 10:11 sets that forth; it is the extension of divine thoughts. There is the extension in Solomon, and added to that is the pattern of what he is to build. "The pattern of all that he had by the Spirit"; the Holy Spirit is brought into this. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in type, enter into these chapters.

J.J. Does the ministry of the four great men, Moses, David, Ezekiel, and John cover the whole scope of God's work from the complete standpoint?

J.T. There is a lot in that; Moses had the pattern of the tabernacle, David of the temple; Ezekiel sees

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things in the concrete sense, also John. They represent in a sense the whole range of divine thoughts. They lift us into the realm of purpose that God has in mind.

W.A.S. "Of thine own have we given thee".

J.T. David has that in mind here: look at his speech: "And David blessed Jehovah in the sight of all the congregation; and David said, Blessed be thou, Jehovah, the God of our father Israel, for ever and ever. Thine, Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the splendour, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and on the earth is thine: thine, Jehovah, is the kingdom, and thou art exalted as Head above all; and riches and glory are of thee, and thou rulest over everything; and in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make all great and strong. And now, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name. But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer willingly after this manner? for all is of thee, and of that which is from thy hand have we given thee. For we are strangers before thee, and sojourners, as all our fathers: our days on the earth are as a shadow, and there is no hope of life. Jehovah our God, all this store that we have prepared to build thee a house to thy holy name, is of thy hand, and is all thine own. And I know, my God, that thou triest the heart, and hast pleasure in uprightness. In the uprightness of my heart have I willingly offered all these things; and now have I seen with joy thy people, which are present here, offer willingly to thee. Jehovah, God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this for ever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and direct their hearts to thee! And give to Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all, and to build the palace, for which I have made provision". I suppose that is one of the finest speeches in the Old Testament. It is a man who

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is in a special way the subject of the work of God; God and His great thoughts and purposes is before him, and he is in possession of great wealth for the accomplishment of these purposes, the people being with him, and all emanating from God. As in Acts 10, the sheet comes down, and goes up, to remain in heaven -- all of God, and for Him eternally; no discrepancy at all between the concrete result and the original purpose conveyed in the divine pattern.

H.B. Would you say a word as to "in thy hand it is to make all great and strong"?

J.T. There is the need of that; how comforting it is -- everything is of Him! How Paul in his doxologies impresses us constantly with this! "For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen" (Romans 11:36).

You can see in a spiritual sense what this scene must have been for God, looking on the antitype, everything fulfilled in Christ. Solomon is not representative of the work of God, David is that. Solomon is representative of Christ more as putting all together; bringing all together according to divine counsel.

M.W.B. Could we distinguish between our inheritance as more covered by the term, eternal life, and God's inheritance in us finding pleasure in sonship?

J.T. Eternal life necessarily enters into our inheritance; it is basic, both for God's purpose in us and our blessings: the living only can praise Him. Eternal life is in the realm of promise (Titus 1:2), and I think promise contemplates need. Our inheritance goes beyond eternal life, while including it: in Joshua the heavenly saints, those forming the assembly, are seen in the Levites, whose portion was God Himself, the sacrifices and certain cities. Sonship and heaven are included in our inheritance. Indeed God is our inheritance, as we are His.

E.G. The last two lines of chapter 29:18 are a complete reversal of what we get in Genesis 6:5,

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"every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually". Is Chronicles the completion of the work of God morally?

J.T. Yes, the passage in Genesis refers to the work of Satan making man thoroughly objectionable to God; but in and through Christ man is thoroughly to God's pleasure, and that is, at least, in principle, what is seen in David here.

W.G.T. What is the difference between God as Head and Christ as Head?

J.T. Headship is the highest thought, the supreme thought. 1 Corinthians 11:3 contemplates that "the head of Christ is God": everything must come that way, all emanating from God.

W.S.S. With regard to verse 20, "And all the congregation blessed Jehovah the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and did homage to Jehovah and the king": is the king a type of Christ there? and does it bear on the position after the Supper when we are engaged with the greatness of God? Does the greatness of Christ come before us and occupy us in worship?

J.T. I think that is right: Psalm 45:11 corresponds, "he is thy Lord, and worship thou him". I suppose we may regard David here as a type of Christ as in the Lord's supper in regard of the service of God. I think it is right to have Him before us in this way, but as apprehended as having taken His place amongst us as His brethren, it is the "spirit of adoption", and God or the Father is now properly the Object of worship.

Eu.R. And as together in supreme privilege in that way we should know how to clothe the saints with the highest thoughts, those connected with Christ as the ascending One.

J.T. Quite so; so that we are suitably with Him as His companions, whom He leads.

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E.C.B. Does this chapter link with John 20:17 -- "my Father and your Father, ... my God and your God"?

J.T. Pretty much; David here rises to a type of Christ as worshipped. Generally in these chapters David is a subject of the work of God, conforming, as such, to the counsels of God; and then the following part of this chapter finished the matter. As seen here, Solomon stands in relation to David's history, Solomon is part of it. It is a question of David's history and Solomon fits in.

J.A.P. In regard to marital love, do you regard it as on a par with the love of sonship?

J.T. No, I rather suggested that sonship is a question of the counsels on God in persons: "all the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job. 38:7): that is, in relation to creation; that is not feminine, but masculine. It is what is in us viewed as so many persons, not in a collective sense; so in John 20 we are viewed as so many persons -- Christ's brethren and God's sons. Luke would present the collective side, and so Matthew, but in John there are so many persons; "where the disciples were" (John 20:19). Jesus came, and they were glad to see Him. That is what I was thinking, and that the assembly, great as it is, is feminine, and is regarded in that light, to be presented to Christ; and, too, as the vessel great enough to be invested with the divine glory, what the saints are collectively in Christ. So that the assembly comes down "out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2). That is where the feminine side comes in, and must be based on the equality involved in sonship, that is, equality in the sense of family; but sonship is greater, I think, as viewed by itself, because it is that in which Christ has part. He is "firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). The assembly is His bride, His wife, conveying, of course, the feminine thought, and she is in subjection to Christ. Sons are in family

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relation to Him; His brethren, His companions, although He is anointed above them.

Rem. In the working out of things practically as in assembly, connected with the Supper, the feminine side necessarily precedes the masculine, the heart of the assembly secured for Christ; and then moving on as admiring Him to have part with Him in affections Godward.

J.T. Yes, the final thought in service is masculine, because it is sonship; it is what the saints are in relation to Christ Godward.

Rem. I said that because of what was said previously as to worshipping the king; as supported by the Spirit Godward, should we address the Lord as such?

J.T. We should, of course, worship Him as toward us from God's side, but as in assembly, when the "spirit of adoption" is heard, God is to be before us; the Lord is now on our side: we have part with Him in the "spirit of adoption". But He must have pre-eminence as taking His place on our side. In this position it is not the assembly viewed as bride, but as so many persons. We thus continue on to the general and heavenly thought, having relation to Christ.

W.G.C. Where does Ephesians 3:21 come in?

J.T. It is the collective side: "glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". It is connected with "generations" as in time, but, obviously, it runs into eternity.

J.J. Will the masculine and feminine side remain throughout eternity?

J.T. "Prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Revelation 21:2), is what Christ has specially, but there is what God has, too, as His "tabernacle" (verse 3).

Ques. What is the force of the expression, "the assembly of God" in Acts 20:28: "shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own"?

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J.T. It is the assembly down here, the assembly of God as His property. Ephesians 3 is the relation to God eternally: but the stress is on time and generations: the stress is on testimony, "in Christ Jesus".

Eu.R. It is sons both in relation to the Father and God.

J.T. Quite so.

G.C.S. What is the distinction between "bringing many sons to glory" (Hebrews 2:10), and, presenting "the assembly to himself glorious" (Ephesians 5:27)?

J.T. The first is God acting -- bringing sons to glory, which would be for Himself, "for whom are all things"; the second is Christ acting for the satisfaction of His own heart -- He presents "the assembly to himself glorious".

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GOD'S INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS (6)

2 Chronicles 2:1 - 6; 2 Chronicles 3:1 - 9; 2 Chronicles 5:1 - 14

J.T. In order to estimate aright the spiritual instruction seen in chapters 2 to 5 of this book, it may be well to observe that chapter 1 seems to be below their level. Solomon is not presented as beginning on the level of the closing chapters of the first book. We are told that "Solomon spoke to all Israel, to the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and to the judges, and to all the princes of all Israel, the chief fathers; and Solomon, and all the congregation with him, went to the high place at Gibeon; for there was God's tent of meeting which Moses the servant of Jehovah had made in the wilderness" (verses 2,3). He comes back after a great public occasion (verse 13), "from the high place at Gibeon to Jerusalem, from before the tent of meeting, and reigned over Israel". The following verses scarcely comport with the high ground taken, the high ground on which he began, for it is said: "And Solomon gathered chariots and horsemen; and he had a thousand four hundred chariots and twelve thousand horsemen; and he placed them in the chariot-cities, and with the king at Jerusalem. And the king made silver and gold in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he as the sycamores that are in the lowland for abundance" (verses 14,15); and it goes on to speak of the exportation of horses from Egypt.

Now a comparison between this chapter and the corresponding chapters in 1 Kings shows that in the latter book, Solomon, after the appearance of Jehovah to him in a dream, returned to Jerusalem and went before the ark; and instead of this description of horses and chariots and the depreciation of silver and gold, we have in Kings, Solomon's wisdom in the case of the two women. So that Kings seems to indicate that he is maintaining the level on which he began, whereas Chronicles indicates a drop. But then this is

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only, it seems to me, to bring out the principle of recovery even in him; for chapters 3, 4, and 5 show that his mind is now wholly on spiritual lines. What he says to Huram, and the description that follows in the account in chapter 3 of the measurements, etc., and the great result in chapter 5, all together indicate that he is now wholly on spiritual lines; so that the result for God is greater than we have had so far; greater indeed, as seen in chapter 5, than at any time.

I think it may be well to consider chapter 1 in that light, because we are constantly reminded of the need of recovery to the truth vouchsafed to us, the light granted. However honest we may be, there is tendency to drop. On the other hand, there is a readiness on God's part to adjust us as we are ready to be adjusted, and Solomon was.

W.H. Would this feature of recovery have a special application in our day, bearing in mind that Chronicles was written after the return from the captivity?

J.T. I think it is to accentuate the thought of recovery because of our tendency to drop and God's readiness to adjust us; indeed, it seems to be constant amongst us.

Ques. Would the drop be borne out by Deuteronomy 17 where this was expressly forbidden?

J.T. That chapter shows plainly enough that Solomon could not have been keen as to the principles governing his position as king; but yet the chapters before us, 3, 4, and 5, show a man wholly on spiritual lines, reaching a sublime height in his service. All that should be encouraging to us, making us all the more ashamed of any deflection, but at the same time appreciative of the restorative grace of God, always at hand.

Ques. How would you describe the deflection, for our help?

J.T. Well, I would say it especially alludes to youthful tendencies, for he was "young and tender"; he was said to be that.

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A.J.G. Is it significant that it is in the epistle to the Ephesians, dealing with the most spiritual things, that we get the injunction to "be filled with the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18)?

J.T. Quite so; to be filled. That is the sure guarantee against the tendency to deflection or declension. The Spirit is the only power by which we are kept. Of course, there is a system into which we are brought involving the Father, Son, and Spirit; the Spirit is the power in us: so that we can use the Spirit; "if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Romans 8:13).

P.L. Would chapter 1 point to the departure from first love at Ephesus, and the later chapters to recovery in Philadelphia?

J.T. Well, there is the testimony to recovery right through. As has been pointed out, the book coming in after the captivity would be surely to impress us with the restorative grace of God, and how completely He does restore as over against our constant tendency to drop. It applies to our brightest days; you see it in the case of both Peter and Paul, the leading men in the beginning: they needed the restoring grace of God.

Ques. How does this come in chronologically? In 1 Kings 11:1, after the depreciation of the silver is mentioned, it is said: "king Solomon loved many strange women".

J.T. Well, it is in accord with these horses; he was not to multiply horses, nor women to himself (Deuteronomy 17:16,17). The depreciation of the currency that David made so much of was certainly not a good sign; to reduce the value of things in this sense is never a good sign.

Ques. Is it a principle with the Lord that in every case of declension He would restore His saints to a higher level than that from which they have dropped?

J.T. I think that is the thought throughout these books. As we have been already noticing, it is not

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exactly history, but the presentation of a certain line of things in relation to the testimony; the restoring grace of God ever present, not simply to restore, but to accomplish God's own thoughts. He never gives up His thoughts, whatever happens; and these books show that if an event happens affecting the testimony, God is behind it and works out His thoughts through it.

S.B. Would the word to us in our day be what Paul says to Timothy: "Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted" (2 Timothy 1:14)?

J.T. That is a good scripture in connection with what we have been speaking of, and links with what has been remarked; we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit, never to be otherwise; thus power is available to us so that we keep ourselves in the love of God (Jude 21).

F.C.H. Does David make provision for recovery, in 1 Chronicles 16:35, in the song delivered to Asaph? "Save us, O God of our salvation, and gather us, and deliver us from the nations, to give thanks unto thy holy name, to triumph in thy praise". In the psalm he makes provision for recovery to the greater thought.

J.T. That is good. We have already noted that psalm drawn from others; I think about six psalms are represented, but principally to bring out the sense that David had of God in restoring His people. We get in chapter 5, the end of what is in our minds in this series of meetings, and it is: they "praised Jehovah: For he is good, for his loving-kindness endureth for ever". That is the end of the psalm in chapter 16 of the first book, drawn from Psalm 96, Psalm 105, Psalm 106, Psalm 107, Psalm 118, and Psalm 136; all, as it were, laid under tribute to bring out what David had already experienced of the restorative grace of God. The highest note was that which is reached by Solomon here. What we get in chapter 5 is but the filling out of that remarkable psalm

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that "David delivered first". It was in his mind that there should be that particular selection set down as the ark was brought to Zion, and all that follows is the working out of that. So we have in chapter 5 this wonderful unison in song. We do not get the fulness of song in the first book, but we get the fulness in chapter 5 of this book.

L.O.L. "But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages" (Ephesians 3:20,21). Does that agree with the scripture in chapter 5?

J.T. Yes; we have the actual words here that appear in the psalm that David put together; they "praised Jehovah: For he is good, for his loving-kindness endureth for ever". That is what gives character to the psalm in 1 Chronicles 16, but it is filled out here in priestly power, and wonderful unison in music; but we are anticipating what I hope we shall finish with.

When we come on to chapter 2 we can see at once we are on a different level; a man buying horses and selling them is a different matter from "a house for his kingdom". Then he sent to Huram and said: "As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him a house to dwell therein so do for me. Behold, I build a house unto the name of Jehovah my God to dedicate it to him, to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual arrangement of the shewbread, and for the morning and evening burnt-offerings and on the sabbaths and on the new moons, and on the set feasts of Jehovah our God". You can see it is a different man; he has God before him now, and he is thinking for God in the most spiritual way. He says, "To burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual arrangement of the shewbread, and for the morning and evening burnt-offerings".

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You can see the difference here from what chapter 1 presents.

Ques. He seems, does he not, to take up the innermost thoughts and work out from them?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. These thoughts are fragrant to God. God maintains things on His own level and Solomon has come to that now.

J.S.E. What do you imply by the reference to the horses?

J.T. "The Egyptians are men, and not God, and their horses flesh, and not spirit" (Isaiah 31:3). No man can become spiritual by unnecessary occupation with horses.

Eu.R. It says: "And Solomon purposed to build". He has purpose of heart on this occasion. Paul says to Timothy, "thou hast fully known my ... purpose" (2 Timothy 3:10).

J.T. We all need this, whether in business, or whatever it is in which we earn our living, there is the need of ability to turn away definitely to be engaged with what is of God; material things are only incidental, whereas I am taken up for ever for God. Solomon has now fixed his mind on the house of God. "Have your mind on the things that are above" (Colossians 3:2). That word is needed because we are so ready to set our minds on things on the earth.

H.C. The name Archippus means, chief of horses, and the word is, "Say to Archippus, Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, to the end that thou fulfil it" (Colossians 4:17). He was to turn away from horses.

J.T. Quite so, referring to the meaning of his name.

Ques. You said to reduce the value of things was not a good sign, what had you in mind?

J.T. If a man has a bit of status in this world he is apt to reduce the value of divine things; you can see it constantly, he is thinking more of things below than the saints in relation to God.

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Ques. "Absalom prepared for himself chariots and horses, and fifty men to run before him" (2 Samuel 15:1). What a contrast to the Lord, "Behold thy King cometh to thee, meek, and mounted upon an ass" (Matthew 21:5). Is there a tendency to think that inward greatness must have a corresponding outward greatness, the calling attention to oneself, whereas the Lord approaches His people personally in meekness?

J.T. "Meek, and mounted upon an ass", was the testimony that accompanied Him. That which the blind men had witnessed to in Matthew 20:30,31, was what applied at that moment, and was carried through in Jerusalem, and resounded in the temple in the voices of the little ones (Matthew 21:15).

P.H.H. What would you say Huram typifies as coming in here in relation to Solomon's exercises as to the house of God? In another part Tyre is connected with the commercial system of the world.

J.T. Yes, but it is not here. Whatever his occupation, a man like that is safe, for he "always loved David" (1 Kings 5:1); showing steadiness typically in loving Christ; that gives one a status. Why did Solomon in speaking to Huram open up on such an exalted line as this? Surely the man must be ready for it! You would not talk to an unspiritual man on this level; you would talk to a lover of Christ on it. "As thou didst deal with David my father, and didst send him cedars to build him a house to dwell therein" (verse 3); there is not a word about horses.

J.J. Does he not suggest the bringing in of the gentiles? "A house of prayer for all the nations" (Mark 11:17).

J.T. Well, quite so; Tyre is not to be despised from that point of view. Commerce is quite all right if devoted to the service of God, as it is when in the hands of a man who loves Christ; it is safe in his hands.

Ques. What had David in mind when he said to Solomon, "Add thereto"?

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J.T. As already said, that is for the young brothers: they are not to add horses! It is the kind of thing that David had brought in that is to be added to; Solomon goes over the ground here and there is not a word about horses. "A hundred thousand talents of gold" (1 Chronicles 22:14). Think of that! Well, according to Solomon's depreciation (2 Chronicles 1:15), what was it worth? He was depreciating gold and silver, making them as stones.

Rem. "I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth" (Ecclesiastes 10:7). What is princely would not depend upon the flesh in any form; what is princely can dispense with horses.

J.T. Paul travelled "on foot" after the occasion at Troas (Acts 20:13). There must be something to be learned from that.

H.W.A. "And thou, Solomon my son, know the God of thy father" (1 Chronicles 28:9). Would that not have been his great preservative?

J.T. Yes: acknowledge Him; you are not acknowledging Him in making so much of horses, what man relies upon; "God is a spirit" (John 4:24).

Eu.R. Would Ephesians 2:22 correspond? "Built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit".

J.T. Yes; the house is according to what God is. Huram is evidently brought in because he loved David and provided material for David; and so now Solomon connects him with the material necessary for the house.

J.H.T. It says in Psalm 147:10 - 12, "He delighteth not in the strength of the horse, he taketh not pleasure in the legs of a man; Jehovah taketh pleasure in those that fear him, in those that hope in his loving-kindness. Laud Jehovah, O Jerusalem; praise thy God, O Zion".

J.T. I was thinking of that: I am glad you bring it forward because it helps us as to the level of chapter 2, and then we have in chapter 3 a still further spiritual setting of Solomon. "And Solomon began to build

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the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem on mount Moriah"; which means according to the note, 'shown by Jehovah'. That is, it is a matter of divine showing, not of Solomon's ability. It is what is shown by God. Then it adds: "where he appeared to David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite". He is now, as to the foundation, thoroughly on David's line, and indeed, making much of David. The stress laid on what was shown to David here is to the credit of Solomon, and shows his increasing spirituality. You feel that God is keeping him there, it is meet he should be kept there. How important it is that a brother should be kept in the service assigned to him! God has to work sovereignly sometimes to keep us in the testimony.

C.O.B. David had in mind a house for the ark, Solomon a house for Jehovah; why is that?

J.T. The ark enters into that, and is involved in what Solomon built. He purposes "to build a house for the name of Jehovah, and a house for his kingdom". It is the outward side. Chronicles is not the heavenly side of the position, it is what is before men; hence we have the veil. Kings gives the heavenly side and much more of the building too. The Spirit is here concerned about what bears on the testimony, the name of Jehovah; and, of course, the ark was bound up with the name; the "strength" and "glory" of God (Psalm 78:61) must be housed.

P.H.H. Would you connect this at all with Matthew 16:17? "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". Peter is not maintained on that level, he drops, according to the latter part of the chapter.

J.T. Yes; he is brought back to it. This alludes to Matthew 16, I understand; that is (verse 3): "And this was Solomon's foundation", that is how it should read. "Solomon's foundation" alludes to Matthew 16. Paul says, "Other foundation can no man lay besides that

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which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:11). That is a different view from Matthew; but Solomon's foundation is conveyed in Peter's confession: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matthew 16:16). The Lord says, "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". It is in our chapter a question of what was shown; the word "Moriah" would correspond with Matthew 16. It is a wholly spiritual matter, and that is the point to see. Solomon is equal to this; God is helping him in it. We should have the full truth in view; there is no reduction of thought from chapter 2 to chapter 5; Solomon is maintained on the proper level. God is ready to bring us back, even to a higher level, if we do get deflected.

Rem. "Shown by Jehovah"; the Lord takes the place in John of being shown what the Father is doing: "the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does" (John 5:20).

J.T. Yes, He takes everything from the Father; the Father shows Him -- very remarkable! The Lord takes that attitude; everything emanates from God. The more spiritual I am, the more I recognise that all must come out from God; "And Solomon began to build the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem on mount Moriah, where he appeared to David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor". God had taken the initiative in that matter. As we had already, He sends the angel to Gad to tell David to go there; and Solomon is thoroughly in that. It shows the thoroughness with which God would have His testimony carried through.

J.J. "His foundation is in the holy mountains" (Psalm 87:1).

J.R.S. Do you link Solomon's recovery with his mention of the threshing-floor? I am thinking of that being the place of the recovery of David.

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J.T. Quite so; it is the Spirit's account that you get; "in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite". It is well to bring that word in, the place of it. It is all to bring out the level on which God would carry on and into which He would bring us; and no true man wants to be on lower ground; however successful he may be in his work, he wants to be on the divine level.

M.W.B. Is Solomon viewed now as in strict accord with the last few chapters of the first book?

J.T. He is on that level now; and then we have "Solomon's foundation". The New Translation gives the truth more clearly in verse 3: "And this was Solomon's foundation for the construction of the house of God. The length by cubits after the first measure was sixty cubits, and the breadth twenty cubits. And the porch which was in front was twenty cubits in length, in front of the house broadways, and the height was a hundred and twenty"; and so forth. It is Solomon's foundation; that is, he has taken it on. It is Christ's; Christ says: "On this rock I will build my assembly" (Matthew 16:18). He has reached that point in the testimony in Matthew; and it is the Father's doing; the Father has made it known in Peter's soul. Peter confesses it, and the Lord says, That is My foundation.

N.K.M. What is the significance of the date here -- "the second month, in the fourth year of his reign"?

J.T. 1 Kings gives the date from the Exodus out of Egypt, four hundred and eighty years, which is an accumulative thought. It is no longer the tabernacle, but the abiding house, the fixed thought. What a long period had to be traversed until this point was reached! but it is reached. "I have been from tent to tent", God says, and He never asked them to build a house (1 Chronicles 17:5,6). It is now reached; it is the patient work of God and His people. The actual thing is reached, the foundation is reached by revelation from

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God. He brings in His mind when the people are ready for it. They are ready for it now, and it is "Solomon's foundation".

M.W.B. Do you think there is a link in Stephen's account, between this and what we had before us at Birmingham? "Our fathers had the tent of the testimony in the wilderness, as he that spoke to Moses commanded to make it according to the model which he had seen; which also our fathers, receiving from their predecessors, brought in with Joshua when they entered into possession of the lands of the nations, whom God drove out from the face of our fathers, until the days of David; who found favour before God, and asked to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob; but Solomon built him a house" (Acts 7:44 - 47). It is, right on from the days of the wilderness, linked up with the days of Solomon.

J.T. That is all very good. In a spiritual account such as Stephen's the Spirit of God points out that the house of God is a spiritual habitation. "The heaven is my throne and the earth the footstool of my feet" (Acts 7:49); David had that in mind, that God should have a footstool as well as a house.

P.J.B. With regard to the site of the house referred to in verse 1 and Solomon laying the foundation, I was wondering whether, although David had spiritual instincts in the way that has come before us, Jehovah really chose the site of the house at the place where the sword of judgment was sheathed?

J.T. We had that yesterday; Jehovah really takes the initiative as to the place of the foundation. David bought the place; there was not only what was literally needed, but plenty of scope. The sheathing of the sword comes in after the place is indicated. The sheathing of the sword is what gives David confidence in God.

The scope which the spirit of sonship requires enters into this position; it is something shown. It is not only

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the fact that the sword was sheathed there, but also that the showing was God's and David buys "the place" in order to have plenty of scope for the building.

Ques. Why is so much made of the material, whereas in Ezekiel it is not material but form and measurement?

J.T. That is a very interesting matter. I think Ezekiel has in mind not what is to be, but what is; especially as to measurement, what is there is according to divine requirements; but here, the materials indicate what God will have in the building. God is here intimating to us as engaged in building, what must be provided (compare 1 Corinthians 3), not only the measure, but the amount of material it involves in us, what we are; these materials refer to what God works out in the saints.

Ques. The house representing what there is for God in testimony, is that connected with the tent too? The tent of meeting is brought up (chapter 5:5).

J.T. Yes, Chronicles has all that in mind, the tabernacle merges in the temple, it is cumulative. There is no veil in Kings, which book represents the heavenly side, but there is a veil here. Here it is a question of testimony rather than liberty and grandeur; but still, the divine end is reached here below.

A.B.P. Does this enter into the Lord's words, "Tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49)?

J.T. Yes; Jerusalem was still the centre, the testimony was to be from there, but they were not to do anything until the Spirit came.

I think these measurements ought to be in our minds as we proceed. "The first measure was sixty cubits"; the "first" measure would be the general thought, and then the filling out of that is in the breadth. The first measure is like great divine principles that we have in our souls; and the practical working out of them is implied in the breadth. God's work in us is in relation

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to right principles. His work in us is marked by love; love is in the breadth, so that God can dwell there.

A.J.G. So that in actual construction principles are first, but in the complete building, as in Ephesians, love is stressed.

J.T. "He that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16). Love must be present for the divine dwelling.

P.L. The length is as much as the breadth in regard of the heavenly city (Revelation 21:16).

J.T. That is the fulness of the thought; and the depth too, it is a cube, the great idea of solidity or substance. Substance is in love. Then, what follows: "the porch which was in front was twenty cubits in length"; that is, the full width of the building, the front of the house broadways; "and the height was a hundred and twenty"; not the whole house, but the porch. It is a testimony to moral elevation. The measurements are simply what is in our hearts, by the work of God; what God can come into.

J.H.T. Would you link that with the hundred and twenty standing in public testimony in Jerusalem?

J.T. What moral elevation was there! The upper room was also moral elevation. Those in it are mentioned as a "crowd"; the idea, I think, is that you do not need to regulate such people for personal identity; distinction marks them severally. From the point of view of God's work, I am what I am; and, if it is a question of moral elevation, I am entirely above the influence of this world. After mention of the height, we have "he overlaid it within with pure gold"; that is not for outward show, it is intrinsic worth inwardly. You can understand that Solomon is not depreciating gold now. It is to appear in the heavenly city; you cannot depreciate that. You can never depreciate what is of God in the minds of those who love Him, and His house is composed of such.

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W.C. Would the hundred and twenty priests connect with the gold?

J.T. The point in the gold here, I think, is that whilst there is public show in the hundred and twenty cubits, inside all is intrinsically precious; where God is to be, where He is to dwell, all is of Himself. It is the effect of His work in His people: "he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him" (1 John 4:16). Then we have: "And the greater house he boarded with cypress-wood, which he overlaid with fine gold, and set on it palm-trees and chains. And he overlaid the house with precious stones for beauty; and the gold was gold of Parvaim. And he covered the house, the beams, the threshold, and its walls, and its doors with gold, and engraved cherubim on the walls". Solomon is thoroughly with God now, he is recognising heavenly values, not depreciating them.

Ques. The gold that David collected was "gold of Ophir" (1 Chronicles 29:4); this is "gold of Parvaim"; what is the difference?

J.T. Evidently both are of especial quality. You will notice too that he does not ignore the silver that David had collected; he is now regarding divine things at their proper value. As among the brethren, where the Spirit of God is, our minds are not to be on things that perish in the handling -- money, houses, cars, etc. -- otherwise we shall undervalue the saints and divine things. Solomon is now valuing things according to heaven.

Ques. What is the meaning of the "greater house"?

J.T. That is the outward part, in contrast to the holiest; the latter was a square: the greater house was forty cubits by twenty; it was outside the holiest -- in front of it.

Ques. Referring to the measurements, would the thought of breadth come into the Spirit's record of what Caiaphas said? "That also he should gather together

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in one the children of God that were scattered abroad" (John 11:52). Would that be suggestive of the breadth of the house?

J.T. I suppose so; as in Colossians, love for all saints; that is the filling out of the thought of the house of God.

Ques. What do you mean when you say that we do not value things aright?

J.T. Take Philemon; he had a slave, who ran away; he is converted, now a child of Paul's, "a brother beloved" (Philemon 16); he returns to Philemon, but on what level does he return? Is Philemon able to value that man? In what relation is he taking him back? -- still as a slave? He is to learn to think of that man as pure gold, "a brother beloved".

Rem. "Both in the flesh, and in the Lord"? He is not only to be able to speak of him as a beloved brother, but to have all the feelings of a brother towards him when he comes back.

J.T. Quite so: thus he would greet his slave as a brother; he is pure gold. It is not to be a matter of condescension on the part of Philemon, for the slave is now a brother; he has a spiritual status according to Paul's valuation, "a brother beloved".

Rem. Gold is the first metal mentioned in Scripture.

J.T. Yes: "the gold of that land is good" (Genesis 2:12).

W.G.T. Do the dimensions of the house lead on to God's thoughts about the saints?

J.T. Yes; Colossians helps us on that line -- love for all saints. These precious stones are especially to be noted: "And he overlaid the house with precious stones for beauty". We must keep this in mind; they are going to have a great place in the future in the heavenly city.

All this prepares us for what we have in chapter 5 in the service of the Levites and priests. In verses 11 to 14 of chapter 5 we have one of the most precious subjects in the Scriptures.

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W.S.S. In chapter 5:1, we have "Solomon brought in the things that David his father had dedicated"; it is all taken up on the line of sonship.

J.T. I think so, and he mentions the silver first; that is striking. What had become as stones in the street in Solomon's commercial realm is now the first thing mentioned. I must regard it in the light of the dedicator, what he was, because it is David in that sense.

T.H. Would it be right to say that the house is finished with a view to the ark morally filling it and God dwelling in it? The ark is carried into a setting already completed.

J.T. That is right, but before the ark you have these dedicated things. That is to say, before you bring the ark in there is a testimony to love in the dedication; so that the highest thoughts, I suppose, in the dedicated things, would be in what David had dedicated. There is the omission of Joab and the others whose names appear in the first book: "And Solomon brought in the things that David his father had dedicated; and the silver, and the gold, and all the vessels he put among the treasures of the house of God". These things are very ornamental, very attractive to God; the evidence of love, unselfish provision for His abode.

W.S.S. With regard to that thought of love, Solomon would have very sensitive feelings in regard to what his father had dedicated.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. Psalm 132:4,5 shows what David had been-through: "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob ...".

So proceeding in the chapter, we have, after the ark is installed "And it came to pass when the priests were come out of the holy place (for all the priests that were present were hallowed without observing the courses; and the Levites the singers, all they of

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Asaph, of Heman, of Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, clad in byssus, with cymbals and lutes and harps, stood at the east end of the altar, and with them a hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets) -- it came to pass when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one voice to be heard in praising and thanking Jehovah; and when they lifted up their voice with trumpets, and cymbals, and instruments of music, and praised Jehovah: For he is good, for his loving-kindness endureth for ever; that then the house, the house of Jehovah" -- note, "the house of Jehovah"; it is stressed -- "was filled with a cloud, and the priests could not stand to do their service because of the cloud; for the glory of Jehovah had filled the house of God".

What is to be observed is the title of the house, what the house is is stressed. The priests and the Levites are in their places, and then the number of priests by themselves and these instruments of music, all in perfect harmony; one sound. Then the words are added, "For he is good ..."; not simply the music, but the words, which are so stressed in chapter 16 of the previous book; the fulness of them is now coming out, in the unity of affection, love and holiness. So God takes charge of the whole position. This is His inheritance; the spiritual thought of His inheritance. God says, as it were, 'I am satisfied with this, it is the great result I have been waiting for'.

J.H.L. Would that be the completion seen in the psalm? -- every whit uttereth glory (Psalm 29:9).

J.T. Quite so: that would be you and me and every one of us; the woods, the metals and all that, refer to the saints as the work of God. We must understand that all this, including the furniture of the temple, is a question of persons; the singing, the musical instruments, the words sung, and the unity entering into it. God says, 'That is all for Me; and I take it on'. It is all beautiful and glorious. To speak with reverence,

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it is the heart of God stimulated in the assembly, anti-typically, it is glory to God in the assembly, and His appreciation of it.

A.B.P. Is it like John 12, the odour filled the house?

J.T. Quite so. It is what God worked for and has now secured.

W.S.S. Do you connect this with the word, "Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:23)?

J.T. That is the thought: all this that we have been looking at refers to the sons, not merely in the thought of obedience as in Exodus; it is that, but more the quality of the materials, indicative of the variety of the divine work in those in the relation of sons. There is no one presiding; there is no longer a need for that, it is a question of the persons that are there -- all divinely prepared and set; all answering to the counsels of love.

J.J. Is this what we should desire to arrive at after the Supper?

J.T. That is what I thought, what we should finish with. It is what the first book has in mind; what is possible; that the inheritance of God should come into actual form at the present time. Of course, He will have us all in heaven, and the full result there, but the point in these typical books is that He is to have it here.

W.S.S. Does this go beyond what is priestly?

J.T. This goes on to sonship. These priests and levites are to guard what is really in view. The official service is in order that the divine thought may be reached unimpaired; but this is regarded by itself, and will go on eternally; that is, the saints viewed as sons. If it could be only for a minute that God could have His people now in this light, in abstraction from all else, how great a result! "Holy and without blame before him in love" (Ephesians 1:4). The assembly is in view. Although as sons we are regarded as persons, the assembly is always contemplated as a concurrent

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thought and includes, in a collective sense, all that is supremely for God.

L.O.L. How is the glory expressed? -- "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 3:21).

J.T. Well, it is to God; it is the effect of His work in the assembly -- what there is there for Him. In His temple every whit speaks glory. That will go through, for it is "in the assembly in Christ Jesus". In this respect it is well to bear in mind that section of the chapter, from the point where the apostle bows his knees to the Father (Ephesians 3:14 - 21). It refers to what is operative: the Father's Spirit strengthening us, and the Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith. The Spirit is the power that is working in us. Then "the Christ" is One who is over all divine operations, and He is dwelling in our hearts, so that there is glory to God in the assembly both now and for ever.

Ques. Would you compare this note arrived at with, "there is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17)?

J.T. Quite so, that is what they say here. We say more than that; we say more about the Father than that He is good, and that His loving-kindness endureth for ever. Take the Lord's own words in John 17there you get instruction as to what you can say to the Father about Himself. The Father seeks worshippers. We worship Him not only in what we say, but also in the attitude of our hearts and minds. I think the Father would love to have us to speak to Him about Himself: so "Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father" (John 17:1). That gives us a lead.

Ques. Is the thought of Moriah anticipated by God in Genesis 22:2? "Get thee into the land of Moriah, and there offer him up for a burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of".

J.T. I think so, not that it is the same mountain; the connection is in Moriah -- being shown.

W.J. Why is it "the glory of Jehovah ... filled the house of God"?

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J.T. It is the fulness of Deity; that is what is meant, I think. Jehovah is the covenant name, but God is the fulness of Deity: "my Father and your Father, ... my God and your God" (John 20:17).

J.McM. Does it mean that God has secured in the assembly what is to be brought to pass when He is all in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

J.T. Yes. "All in all", that is, we are filled with Him. He is not only all in a merely objective sense, but all as filling all. Of course, the divine Persons will be recognised, and God known as in Christ, even as now: the creature cannot see Him in His abstract relations. But there will be no sense of ignorance or discrepancy of any kind. Christ as "placed" in subjection (1 Corinthians 15:28) -- never ceasing to be what He is in abstract Deity -- will be on our side, covering and holding all, the Spirit pervading all. It is through the Son and the Spirit that God will be "all in all".

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THE SILVER TRUMPETS

Numbers 10:1 - 36

Ques. Would you say chapter 10 completes the first section of the teaching in this book?

J.T. That is right. It will be seen at the end of chapter 9 that what God had inaugurated was so far perfect. This is an important point to notice, especially as seen in the antitype; what was inaugurated at Pentecost was so far perfect; the saints included in it were the workmanship of Christ. This has to be held in our souls whatever else may happen, there is that which is perfect from the divine side.

In chapter 9, from verse 15 to the end of the chapter, we have a description of a remarkable state in Israel so far. This is a part of Scripture which ought to be specially noted in regard to our assembly exercises; how thoroughly, as far as the account goes, the people were subject. God secured His thought in them, no doubt watching over them in a special way so that this obedience should be there and that He might show the perfection of what He had set up; and if then, why not now? God has reached a standard for all time. Now chapter 10 is the counterpart of that; there is liberty in that state of things for ministry, for testimony on God's part, and liberty on the part of the people to do that which, although not exactly according to what was required earlier, was what spiritual liberty admits of. Spiritual liberty is seen in the variations in the marching position of the tabernacle; then there is liberty for the ark, for Christ, as I might say, to vary too from the appointed manner. Love is really better than literal appointment. Christ has liberty to move out of the appointed place, to act in love; this is seen in the ark going before, and then Moses speaks to God in liberty. No direction for this had been given. It is a wonderful picture of what God has effected through

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Christ. He has liberty on His own side through the obedience of His people to continue in ministry and testimony, as seen in the blowing of the trumpets, and the people on their side are free to carry on according to liberty -- according to principle, of course, but in liberty; and Christ has liberty also to move out according to love: that is, you cannot restrict love in Him. Then the mediator has liberty to invite God Himself to do something: "Rise up, Jehovah, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thy face". And when the ark rested, he said, "Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel". I think we have foreshadowed here a ground inaugurated, not only in Christ, but in His people down here through their obedience, on which there is liberty for the rights of love to be asserted in the testimony, and movement accordingly.

Ques. Would you attach importance to the apprehension of the truth of the position as it is in the mind of God, as the standard by which movements would be made?

J.T. Quite so, "the firm foundation of God" (2 Timothy 2:19); that what He began with.

P.H.H. Do you mean that, whatever may be the departure, we are to keep the truth of this in the abstract in our minds?

J.T. Yes, that is what I thought. The abstract thought -- the foundation of God is sure. "If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do?" (Psalm 11:3). As we hold to this we are safe; there may be great variation in detail, but the general principle remains. Brethren have returned to this, to what God has established, and as we hold to that there is room for activity, not only in the testimony -- in the blowing of the trumpets asserting God's rights in love -- but in the movements of the saints; there may be outward variation, but it is in the liberty of love. The Kohathites with the ark do not go first, Gershon and

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Merari go first, after the camp of Judah, so that the tabernacle is set up before the ark comes; provision is made for it in love. We make provision for Christ; He makes provision for us. If we give Him His place, having everything ready for Him at the next encampment, so to speak, He will move out in love for us. That is the idea. The ark goes before and then Moses has opportunity of speaking to Jehovah.

Ques. Reverting again to the end of chapter 9, would you say a little more as to what is involved in this movement of the cloud and of the camp?

J.T. The cloud is the symbol of the divine presence. What is our position save as there is room for God? God has to suffer in the journeying, so to speak, travelling along with them. He is there cloudwise by day and firewise by night, assuring every Israelite that he is protected, and then obedience in them made way for all this. According to the account here, there is no discrepancy at all; it is the triumph of God, if only for a day, it is what He can do. What He can accomplish, He could make it last till the millennium, but in perfect wisdom allows human failure. Man in responsibility is allowed to expose himself in all the dispensations.

E.S.B. Would you say that the eye and ear are both necessary on the part of the people?

J.T. They go together. These verses in chapter 9 are a general setting out of what God had accomplished; God is calling attention to what He had effected.

Ques. You are thinking that the trumpets suggest ministry?

J.T. Yes. Chapter 9 is the general setting out of what God had reached and it must have continued a good while; in principle it continued to the end, to Jordan, for the testimony at the end of the wilderness journey was, "What hath God wrought!" (Numbers 23:23). He had wrought something and there it was. There was thus liberty for the trumpets, which would be the assertion

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of His rights through redemption; today that would come out in ministry.

Ques. What is the difference between the setting of this and Exodus 40? It seems to revert back to that, but would you say that what has preceded in the book of Numbers fills out what was involved in the tabernacle being set up -- the persons secured in various ways, for military service, and the securing of the Levites, the allotment of their duties, and so on, the offerings of the princes and various other matters? Does that all fill out what is involved in the tabernacle being set up?

J.T. Yes. Obedience is the main thought. In Exodus 24 there is the suggestion on the part of Jehovah that Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu and seventy of the elders of Israel should go up. Moses, setting out the instinct of the true minister, brings up the question of obedience to what God had said, because there could be no thought at all of going up without that; it would be an insult to God. Moses is acting instinctively in answer to the divine gracious thought that he should go up, and no true minister would undertake this save on the principle of obedience. So Moses states what Jehovah had said, and the people say that they will keep every word. Then Moses builds an altar and twelve pillars, so that the foundation is laid there for all that follows, and in the next chapter the command is for a heave-offering from the people, that is God testing their love, for obedience and love go together; no one should profess love without obedience. If you say you will obey, God takes the ground that you love, so He looks for a heave-offering. A heave-offering, He would say, according to what I need. The need would cover what He would require as with them in the wilderness. There was a wonderful pavement under His feet according to chapter 24, but He required nothing for flooring in the tabernacle, for He was ready to journey as they were, to sacrifice to be with them. God is not asking anything from us that He has not done, or is not ready to do,

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Himself. So that the giving would bring out that there was love there. All being finished, Moses surveys everything; nothing is allowed to go into the tabernacle without the surveillance of the mediator. Bit by bit it is all there, and all is functioning, meaning that all is in obedience. There is nothing more important than that in Exodus. The stress is on obedience; typically, no one questions where he is placed, and he is functioning in it; "so Moses finished the work. And the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle" (Exodus 40:33,34). God is so pleased that He fills it. That is the position in Exodus, and this portion in Numbers is the filling out of that, in view of all that the book of Numbers has in mind. I think these trumpets mean that God has liberty to testify to us of His rights in redemption. There is no such liberty found in merely human organisations, for it is only where we have these conditions that the trumpets can be employed.

P.L. Would 2 Corinthians 3:17 bring in the trumpets, and the liberty of love in the ministry of the Spirit? "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". Would the first epistle answer more to divine appointment and subjection and obedience?

J.T. Just so. The first epistle specially calls for obedience. We have to revert back to what the apostle found in Corinth, always remembering that by the time he left, the brethren were only eighteen months old as christians. The Lord had told him in a vision that He had much people in that city, so Paul remained there eighteen months teaching the word of God. He had peculiar material to work with, as He has in this city, or in any other. Difficulty with material today is very great. In working in Corinth for those months the apostle said he was determined to know nothing among them save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. He gauged the conditions and ministered accordingly; an important point to notice. In the second epistle the apostle says,

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"Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled" (chapter 10:6). That makes way for this kind of ministry -- trumpets for gathering the assembly, for gathering the princes together, for journeying, for war, and for set feasts. The use of these trumpets, it seems to me, requires that the conditions indicated in chapter 9 must be found, not lawless conditions, for which the rod is needed. That is what the apostle threatens in the first epistle; and while it had its effect, yet there were many there who had not been subdued, but withal there is room made for much more extensive ministry. The mystery is not developed, but we come on to the new covenant, reconciliation, and new creation.

A.J.G. Does the fact that the trumpets were blown by priests secure that the movements of the saints would be of a right character, considering for God and what God will have in them?

J.T. Quite so, it is not Levites simply, but priests who blow the trumpets; we can see it is not literal, it has testimony in mind. After that is stated we have a remarkable statement: "they shall be to you for an everlasting statute throughout your generations", which I think we ought to cherish now, because they have come down to us.

Rem. The trumpets involve that, on account of obedience in the people, God has absolute liberty to make His mind known and His voice heard in relation to whatever He has in mind.

J.T. Yes, it is not here a question of correction, but for the calling together of the assembly, our convocations, which would mean the part God has now in special occasions among the brethren. God has a special part Himself. Then for the journeyings of the camps, of which details follow in this chapter. These camps, two of them only mentioned, one towards the east and one towards the south, (from which I suppose we have to learn something) were to set forward. Then

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when the congregation itself is to be gathered together, "ye shall blow", it says, "but ye shall not blow an alarm"; that is, there is no evil occurrent. The word in verse 2 would allude to a convocation, which would mean that God had a special part in it. He would say, 'I like to have you together, I want to have a part in what you are going on with'. God would have us together for Himself, to have part with us. What privilege! We come together actuated by love and God has His part with us. If God comes in, what can He not do for us, even in the prayer meeting? He would have us to be joyful in His house of prayer. He specially stresses that He will make us glad in it.

Rem. This particularly has in mind the wilderness position. The convocations are not looked at as outside that sphere, but whilst the wilderness journey is still on.

J.T. They go on to the land, but it is the wilderness position here.

H.P. Would you connect these chapters also with 2 Timothy? The testimony is in view especially in 2 Timothy.

J.T. Yes, "the testimony of our Lord" (2 Timothy 1:8). This is active testimony. "The firm foundation of God" (2 Timothy 2:19) is in mind.

P.H.H. I would like to ask about the term "sanctuary" in the early chapters of this book. Does that give the corresponding thought to what you have suggested in Corinthians, that God would love to be among the people, following on from Exodus? God never has any lower standard before Him than that He should be constantly amongst them and move with them. It says here the Kohathites set forward bearing the sanctuary.

J.T. Yes. In chapter 5:2,3 we have, "Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper ... that they defile not their camps, in the midst whereof I dwell". It is a great matter to keep in mind that God is in His sanctuary; it enters

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into all our gatherings. The sanctuary means what is inward, what belongs to the holy places. In verse 17 the sons of Gershon and Merari set forward bearing the tabernacle, that is, the dwelling, but the other is the sanctuary -- the inner part. "And the others set up the tabernacle whilst they came". The first two went ahead, which is not the prescribed order, according to chapter 2:17. It is the liberty, the latitude of love. It is really consideration for Christ, that we might be ready for Him, ready for the ark and all the inner utensils.

Ques. Does the Lord convey that thought in Luke 22:8, when He says, "Go and prepare"?

J.T. Quite so, He sent two of them. In another gospel they thought of it themselves, and that was happy. Then in Luke 10:1, He "sent them two and two before his face into every city and place where he himself was about to come"; this involves the same principle.

-.W. Following the preparing and partaking of the passover they went up to the mount of Olives. Does this suggest that the journeyings have the land in view?

J.T. That is the idea of going into Canaan, that is, the spiritual and heavenly position. He had made a way for them before, but now they go. That would fit in to our assembly meetings, alluding to what we have on Lord's day; a mutual state of things. They sang a hymn, and went to the mount of Olives. The Lord would have more liberty, from their moving in mutual feeling, to develop further and greater things, heavenly things.

The general use of the trumpets is seen in verse 2, then the detail, "When they shall blow with them, the whole assembly shall gather to thee". We are not to gather aimlessly, we gather to the Mediator, not Jehovah. Then in verse 4, "if they blow with one, then the princes, the heads of the thousands of Israel,

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shall gather unto thee" -- that might include our care meetings in the principle of it, those who have care of things set up by God to lead His people. Following on that you must have the idea of an alarm and movement; there must be movement after these facts. "And when ye blow an alarm, the camps that lie eastward shall set forward. And when ye blow an alarm the second time, the camps that lie southward shall set forward; they shall blow an alarm on their setting forward". When moving we have to be particularly on our guard because the enemy would be set to attack us. We all have to be on the alert if there is any particular phase of the truth asserted, because the enemy would suggest counter-thoughts.

W.C. Why are there two trumpets here? In Sinai there was one.

J.T. I suppose it suggests the principle of witness, adequate testimony, two or three.

Ques. Is it significant that Moses makes these trumpets? Jehovah says, "Make thee two trumpets of silver".

J.T. It is an allusion to Christ as in authority; it is through Him all this service is carried out.

A.J.G. I think you said we should notice verses 5 and 6. What had you in mind in drawing special attention to them?

J.T. It is the positive side of our position. The camps of Ephraim and Dan would suggest what is more negative. In movement it is important to keep positive things before the brethren. Often you get arguments and counter-thoughts in a meeting or reading. I believe this would remind us to pursue things in a positive way. The position of Judah's camp was eastward -- full of hope. Brethren ought to leave a meeting like this with hope in their hearts, and favour too; the south is favourable. I should like to be in the camp of Judah in that sense, there is something very hopeful

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about it -- divine sovereignty placing him there although he is not the firstborn.

P.L. Is this seen at Ephesus, "I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God"; is that the eastward side? Then the way they kissed the apostle, would that bring in the southern atmosphere?

J.T. Just so, the most positive things came out at Ephesus, as Acts 20 shows. The camp, including three tribes, moved, it says, and the tabernacle was taken down, then the sons of Gershon and Merari set forward bearing the tabernacle. This first movement in response to the trumpet leads to the tabernacle coming into view -- the positive side of things.

Ques. Is not spiritual leadership in its finest sense seen in Judah?

J.T. Yes. It is expressed in David; that is, typically, Christ.

Rem. We have limited the thought of alarm to conflict. In movement forward everyone needs to be on the alert, so that we may not miss it.

J.T. If the Lord is giving an inkling of light, and stressing a new feature of the truth, the enemy is watching that; we have had experience of it, so it is very important to be on the alert. Questions arise and Satan would lead people astray. They say something different has been taught before; but the point is, what Scripture teaches. It seems as if the alarm would call attention to the danger of missing what the Lord is saying.

Rem. We should be on the line of furthering God's dispensation, which is in faith; that is positive, instead of bringing questionings.

J.T. Exactly. Here the tabernacle comes in after the first alarm is blown, and Judah has moved. God is there -- the tabernacle is there -- the place for the divine dwelling. God is at our meetings as we move on, however much people may raise questions.

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P.H.H. Paul stresses the thought of vigilance in 1 Corinthians -- would that come in a little on the line of sounding the alarm?

J.T. Scripture says so; "If the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself for war?" (1 Corinthians 14:8). God is there, God is among you; whatever others may say, that is what you observe. Room is made for Christ, the full thought of God's dwelling is being developed, for the movement of the second camp brings in the sanctuary. "And the Kohathites set forward bearing the sanctuary: and the others set up the tabernacle whilst they came". This shows that love is active. As love is thus among the brethren they think for God and for Christ.

In verse 22, the camp of Ephraim is moving; verse 25, the camp of Dan is moving. In principle the brethren are all moving, and that speaks for itself. Then the next thing is this suggestion of Moses to Hobab, and while it does not seem to end in anything, it makes room for Christ to say, I am going to find a way. Love never fails. "Yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence" (1 Corinthians 12:31). So the ark takes a place that had not been prescribed for it. It is the Lord acting in love to make a way for us. Moses talked about Hobab being eyes, but the Lord makes a way for us. Moses' suggestion did not help. How could Hobab know a way in? A child of the wilderness cannot lead into Canaan. The point was, "We are journeying to the place of which Jehovah said, I will give it unto you: come with us, and we will do thee good". Well, that is the position. Hobab is not ready to go. I should not like to discredit Moses, but if I heard him talking to Hobab in that way I would be a bit beclouded in my mind; for that is what enters into the human organisations around us. The Lord steps in, and the position is cleared up, as the brethren want the truth (see verse 33). "And they set forward from the mountain of Jehovah and went three days' journey; and the ark of the covenant

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of Jehovah went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting-place for them". I think that is beautiful; Christ in love showing the way.

P.L. Is He unique in that three days' journey of love? I was thinking of His own personal journey into death, that keeps Him supreme among the saints.

J.T. I think the three days is full testimony to love. He shows the length to which love would go -- "yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence".

Ques. Do the priests and the trumpets become one in ministry?

J.T. Quite so. The trumpets are made of beaten work. Verse 2 says, "Make thee two trumpets of silver; of beaten work shalt thou make them". I suppose it would be a little like the Lord saying to Peter, 'I will make thee'. The Lord makes His ministers, so that they are under His hand for the assertion of the rights of love -- every one of the apostles was in this, especially Paul.

A.J.G. Does the fact that the name of the leader of each of the tribes is mentioned in connection with movement, emphasise the importance of leadership in local gatherings, in relation to what the Lord is saying? Men that would move, and influence others to move in keeping with the lead given by the trumpets.

J.T. Very good, according to the principle of what came out in chapter 7. There the princely thought is stressed: they are men of means acting in unity, not rivals, all offering the same at the dedication of the altar, so that they are safe men.

The positive suggestion in the two camps mentioned first, Judah and Reuben, is very suggestive as to how we are to move on positive lines in our gatherings. No arguments or abstract suggestions; not, 'Is it this, or that?' -- but, 'What it is to you'. If a question is raised, let it be a constructive question, that makes room for God, the tabernacle and the sanctuary.

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Rem. Abstractly from this point of view the whole movement was definitely eastward. The journey would have this in view; the main line of ministry would never deviate from that aspect.

J.T. In ministry that is positive there is hope, it stimulates the saints and makes room for God and for the sanctuary, the inner thing. Many do not go so far as the Kohathites. The trumpets refer to ministry that leads in the direction of the divine movement. God is there and there is no question about it, whatever criticism there may be.

Ques. Would you say a word about the use of the word "trumpet" in verse 9? "And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before Jehovah your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies".

J.T. That is a great matter. That is, when an attack is made, keep on with the truth. This is the alarm, you are warning the saints of the enemy, the danger, but still you are keeping on with the truth. They are still the silver trumpets. This is seen in the epistles to the Corinthians.

Ques. "Your loins girt about with truth". I suppose the warnings did not come in until after the testimony of the spies was refused?

J.T. After this chapter we come to the side of unbelief among the brethren, but thank God, there is this side and this stands -- it stands in principle. If only one man is holding it, it stands.

Ques. Is that the construction of the book? -- the abstract thought is set out first, and then the various exercises are gone through in which the flesh is weakened down, until the brethren arrive at the thought of the Spirit collectively, and then the journey is resumed from chapter 21 onwards.

J.T. The flesh in its features is developed from chapter 11 onwards and then dealt with in chapter 21

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in type in the brazen serpent, but here we have the abstract thought. The Lord in Luke 24 came into the midst of a gathered company, which is really what you might see here -- the gathering of the assembly. The first thing they were saying was that "the Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon", that was grace. Secondly, He was made known to others in the breaking of bread; that is the public position. Now, is everybody there right? No: but John (no doubt giving an account of the same thing) does not record a single discrepancy. That is the abstract thought. Luke gives the concrete, actual state of things; these two sides of our position ought to be taken in by all the brethren. The abstract thought, that is what God has reached, the sure foundation of God, as we may call it; and it includes the saints: if only one, it stands if there is something in us that answers to it. Luke 24 shows the state of perturbation that began when the Lord was in the midst; it was humbling that His presence should bring about distress; that is a wrong state, but John 20 gives you the other side. "Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord"; and the Lord says, "Peace be unto you" twice -- He confirms the position.

H.A.H. Would verse 10 be like a word at the Supper?

J.T. You mean the blowing of the trumpets? Quite so. "In the day of your gladness, and in your set feasts, and in your new moons, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings and over your sacrifices of peace-offering; and they shall be to you for a memorial before your God: I am Jehovah your God". That would mean that a word at that time is not on the line of correction, or even teaching; it is something that comes in from God that makes our hearts glad and confirms us in our joy.

Ques. Does it suggest the thought of bringing everyone in? If one thinks of the mention of the trumpets in Abijah's day, we read that the men of Judah shouted, but the priests sounded first (2 Chronicles 13:14,15).

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It seems to imply that it is not a matter of a few, but rather a word of ministry that brings all into it, the stimulus that the Lord would give in this way.

J.T. I feel encouraged in that. I think the Lord has helped us in recent years. As we have proceeded in service rightly, a word of this kind seems to stimulate us, and enhance our joy. I find that frequently among the brethren.

-.W. Would you say that a word on Lord's day morning should not be exhortation?

J.T. It ought not to be, but, of course, it might be needed, but it is a word that is priestly. It is here the priests, not the levites. I think a word of exhortation would be the levites' work, but the priests can add to what is there by a word from the Lord; it should be brief and pungent, marked by spiritual power and feeling, and I often notice the brethren get stirred up by it.

P.H.H. It liberates for further movement and confirms us where we are.

M.P. There are no trumpets in verse 33 in connection with the movement of the ark. Does that suggest something that is beyond the thought of ministry? Should we make room for that?

J.T. The Lord does not need a trumpet; it is love in Him acting of itself there. It says they set forward from the mountain of Jehovah -- an excellent start -- and they went three days' journey, "and the ark of the covenant of Jehovah went before them in the three days' journey to search out a resting place for them". That is very beautiful, it is love in Christ acting of itself -- no stimulation was needed there. It is the Lord acting Himself, really coming out of His place to lead us. In verse 34 it says, "And the cloud of Jehovah was over them by day when they set forward out of the camp. And it came to pass when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, Jehovah, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee

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flee before thy face. And when it rested, he said, Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel". He could not have said that if Hobab had led them forward! It is a movement of love. There is no stimulation needed there. The Lord's love for the saints would come before us in the three days' journey to search out a resting place for us; and now Moses is able to say, "Rise up, Jehovah, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thy face. And when it rested, he said, Return, Jehovah, unto the myriads of the thousands of Israel". I think that is most beautiful -- the Lord scattering our enemies and then returning to His own place. I suppose it was in the death of Jesus -- He scattered His enemies, the enemies of God, and then returned to the thousands of Israel; this, in principle, is seen in John 20:19.

Rem. This chapter leaves you with a sense of the greatness and glory of Christ.

J.T. The glory of Christ in His actings of love, the way of surpassing excellence.

Ques. Why is it to search out a resting place?

J.T. It reminds us of the Lord's place amongst His own. "I am among you as he that serveth". He deserves everything in the way of honour, but He is in this attitude of service. The Lord going into death was the way by which the enemies were really scattered. In John it says, they went backward and fell to the ground. Searching would show the extreme interest of love to reach the end in view.

Ques. Would the cloud of Jehovah over them give the thought of divine protection in relation to what is pleasing to God?

J.T. You can see that more fully when you come to Numbers 16:42, where the whole position is attacked. God comes in in power and the cloud covers the whole tabernacle. He says, as it were, I am protecting this, I am standing by it, and it is thus inviolate.

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SECRET SERVICE

Matthew 6:6; 2 Samuel 15:32 - 37;2 Kings 6:8 - 12

I wish to speak about secret service. It is a department in God's kingdom, as it is in man's, but, in using the phrase "secret service", I would at once make clear, that in no sense is it to operate against the powers that be. They, indeed, are part of it; they are ordained of God, and they have a peculiar place in His testimony that believers should understand, and especially so now. The book of Daniel opens up their service to us, God causing the first of what are now called the powers that be, to see in a vision what the great matter signified. Nebuchadnezzar was already ruling, and before he was taken on, his father had ruled, but the vision disclosed to him, through Daniel's interpretation of it, that he was the head of gold. That image of gold and silver and brass and iron was not a satanic device, nor were the empires indicated in it to be at Satan's behest; they were to be God's servants. The prophet Zechariah tells us that they were the four spirits of the heavens which stood before the God of the earth, and Nebuchadnezzar is divinely called Jehovah's servant. He was the head of gold, but all the others were integrally parts of the system indicated in the image, right down to this moment.

In speaking of secret service, therefore, there is not the slightest suggestion of any hostility to these powers. In His wisdom God saw the necessity for universal government, and it was with a view to the bringing in of Christ. He came in under the last of those monarchies which continue till now. He recognised that the head of it had power from God, and Pilate, as representative of that power, was true, abstractly at least, to the responsibility resting upon him. He primarily had no thought of putting Jesus to death; his great thought was to liberate Him. Only his natural susceptibilities

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as a poor, mortal, sinful man, made way for the devil, and of course, that has been repeated times without number in the history of government, so that, whilst men in authority are abstractly right -- for government is of God -- their natural propensities give way to the enemy. Still, government is government, and governors are governors, and Pilate was the governor. He is distinctively called the governor in Matthew, and owned as such, his wife sending a message to him to have nothing to do with that righteous Man. Both he and his wife were, as it were, abstractly right, but he was the weak one, and gave way. But still there was the testimony which must be accredited to the governor that Jesus was righteous and undeserving of death.

I have no thought in any way of militating against that principle, but rather of supporting it, for it is of God. Those monarchies are of God in themselves and He had His testimony in mind in forming them, and we should not be here today save for the protection that they extend. The mystery of iniquity works over against them, and the Spirit goes on to say that there is He which hinders that spirit of iniquity, and that which hinders. It is for us as spiritual to discern what is alluded to in Him who restrains and that which restrains, and to have respect for every element that restrains, in whatever measure the mystery of iniquity works. It is working; Satan is behind it. Nebuchadnezzar, as I said, was not taken up for that. He may have served it, as indeed all the monarchies, but the thing itself represented in that image is of God. It is over against what is of the devil. The four spirits of the heavens which stand before God, refer to government according to God.

Now I say all that because I know the difficulty of detaching from the abstract thought, what comes out in those who may be governing, because of what they are, poor mortal men. Save as they are supported of God, and that is surely through our prayers, they are

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amenable to evil influence. That has to be owned. Pilate is the best example you can get of a man in authority, knowing what was right, and yet weakly surrendering his responsibility to the clamour of irresponsible persons, for that was the fact. He would not have put Jesus to death otherwise.

In view of all that, I would address the young ones here as to secrecy, and the Lord sets it out in that way in telling us to enter our closets and pray to our Father who sees what is in secret. The Scriptures abound indeed with the thought of secrecy that is of God. There is secrecy, of course, which is of the devil, and we are all prone to unholy secrecy. But there is secrecy that is of God, and no one shall shine in the assembly, nor be adorned in the testimony save as he has recourse to his closet and prays to his Father in secret, and his Father who sees in secret will answer him suitably.

This leads me on to the passage in Samuel. It is a secret system, a secret service, not in one person only, but in five, and subsequently in seven, with the result that Absalom's rebellion and kingdom were overthrown irretrievably. Absalom's governorship was not of God; it had no title to be of God. It was rebellion against David, who was appointed and anointed of God, and the verses read present a secret system against what was characteristically anti-christian. That is the thing, dear brethren, to have a clear view as to government ordained of God and to be able to distinguish it from satanic workings with a view to apostasy. It is that that calls forth the necessity for this secret service of which I am speaking. It begins in the closet, and I might say the extension of it is the holiest, where we see the means which God has to overthrow all that is contrary to Him. We may not see that in our closet, but confidence in God will assure us, as He hears in secret, that what we suffer from here as against God and Christ will be overthrown, and we as taking it on in prayer will be rewarded. We need not be in a hurry

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for any rewards. They will all come, and perhaps at a time when we shall value them and they will not damage us. Were the "exceeding weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17) that awaits us to be placed on our brows today, it might be too much for us. There will be plenty of that -- an "exceeding weight of glory". Let us be patient in the secret service of God pending the manifestation of that. It will be more than abundant.

We thus begin firstly with confidence in God the Father in secret, and secondly the holiest, where we see how He has the means of dealing with everything, as Asaph says in his well-known Psalm 73. He was greatly disturbed by the wicked -- not the rulers, not the powers that be. The previous psalm tells us of Solomon, and the prayers of David were ended. All that was necessary to the government of God was established in Solomon, but Asaph was speaking about the wicked. They flourished like a green bay tree, and he was distressed as to it, "until", he says, "I went into the sanctuaries of God, then understood I their end". It is the sanctuaries -- not one but two, and inside involves the mystery of God. Over against the "mystery of iniquity" is "the mystery of God; in which are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" (Colossians 2:3); and we ourselves are hidden in that sense; "your life is hid with the Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3). So we are to carry on on these lines, content with obscurity and reproach, for that is the order of the day, but with the sure end in mind: "Until I went into the sanctuaries of God; then understood I their end". I cease then to be anxious about them. Still they have to be contended with.

So the first point I would make in the scripture read in Samuel is that the secret system is vested in a friend of David, a rare title, but in principle a friend of God -- Hushai. Abraham was the friend of God, and the Lord Jesus said, "Ye are my friends", that is, those who are trustworthy, to whom He can impart secrets,

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to whom He can make known His mind, in whom He can confide. So it is that Hushai is David's friend, and he is to be the president of that secret system. It is a question of loyalty, and proved loyalty to the rejected king. Hushai is not only the friend of David; he is a wise man, but it is the kind of wisdom that men would call foolishness. That is reproach. To act in what seems to be foolishness is reproach, and yet "the foolishness of God is wiser than men", as the scripture says (1 Corinthians 1:25). Hushai represents that foolishness, but his advice was intended to overthrow the counsel of Ahithophel. He who at one time was David's counsellor was now on the side of the enemy. How sorrowful! May God save us from such a state of soul. The moment demands loyalty to Christ.

David chose his man rightly. He was worshipping at the time -- very significant, very portentous of good results; and God is now calling our attention to worship. It is as worshippers that we are safe and know what to do, because worshippers of God have access to God and participate in His mind and feelings as drawing near. So David in effect says to Hushai, You will serve me better by going back into the city. David had already sent the ark back; he was no partisan; he was a man of God, hence he sent the ark back, the foundation of everything, and with it, a remarkable combination; the two priests, Zadok and Abiathar, and their two sons Ahimaaz and Jonathan, and then Hushai his friend; five persons against a powerful rival to David, a powerful rebel to him who was typical of Christ. This is no question of the powers that be, as we speak today, but of a positive anti-christian power, and there is to be no relenting at all in opposition to that, in whomsoever it may be.

So Hushai and Absalom come into Jerusalem together -- Hushai, David's friend, and Absalom, David's enemy. That is where the issue lies, and to a spiritual understanding there can be only one end, and that is

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the overthrow of Absalom. Two other persons are added to the system, making seven in all, and I speak of them now for the sake of the young people here. One of them is just called a maid, or a wench in the Authorised Version, a word scarcely ever used now. She was just a maid, but she becomes a powerful link in this chain of secret service. The two young men were at En-rogel, and the message came conveying what Hushai had counselled and what Ahithophel had counselled. It was urgent that David should get the facts, and this maid carried the tidings to those two young men loyally waiting to serve David and David's interests. It was a most auspicious situation, typical of our own times in the most striking way, for God is working with the young men and young women loyal to Christ, linked on with older ones, older men and women, all moving together in secret understanding, not disloyal to the powers that be, but loyal to them, praying for them, for they are part of the secret system of God, and essential to it.

Thus the news is carried to those two young men and they with haste proceed to deliver it to David; but they are seen by the enemy, by an agent of his, another young man. There are plenty of those, alas! David's young men are tracked by Absalom's emissaries to Bahurim, to the house of a man there. He is not active, but his wife is. You see how extensive the thought is; our houses and families and other things must enter into the secret service of God. In the household the service can be carried on most effectively by the parents, particularly the mothers, in keeping the children's minds pure, rebuking the evil which they imbibe in the schools, or elsewhere. It is all a question of the secret service, of the interests of our absent Lord, and loyalty to Him. The children are baptised to His name, and brought up in His name to be used of Him in due course, as these young men here, the sons of priests. What is needed in the households is that very thing,

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priestly touches which will not neglect what is suitable in the household of faith. You will understand it is not a question of public preaching or the like, but what is inside particularly, and is essential to the maintenance of the rights of Christ in apostate conditions.

Well now, finally, there is the passage in 2 Kings. I have been speaking of priests, and all true christians are priests, at least on the divine side, and should be practically, that is, as in their houses, so that we are alive to Christ's interests and nothing is admitted that is unsuitable to those interests. Now we have a man who is called a man of God. That is another matter. Elisha is not even named at first. It is a remarkable passage, referring to a man who could tell what the king of Syria said in his bedchamber. You might say I am speaking of things entirely unknown now, but we should not be altogether sure about that, for as having the Spirit of God we surely should know something, as Paul says, of the enemy's devices. "We are not ignorant", he says, "of his devices" (2 Corinthians 2:11). The more spiritual we are, the more we shall discern his devices, and understanding his devices we know how to battle with him effectively.

So the king of Syria would make war. It is remarkable how prone the natural man is to make war. "The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart", we are told (Psalm 55:21). It is in the natural man actuated by the devil. War is one of the leading thoughts in man's heart. If he has any power at all, it is the opportunity to show it, and war is in his heart. If he has to do with the people of God in any way, war is in his heart. So the king of Syria says, "In such and such a place shall be my camp", and the man of God knew. I am speaking now of the man of God -- what a great thought it is! -- to enlist interest in it and desire to be in it, for it is near to us, it is within our grasp. It is only applied to Timotheus, as a young man, in the New Testament; indeed, it is scarcely used,

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and yet there were thousands, as I might say, of men of God in the early christian days; all the apostles and many others of whom we have no record. Yet if Timotheus was one, a young man, why not any young man today? That is the bearing of it. "But thou, O man of God, flee these things" (1 Timothy 6:11). A young man called a man of God. What an honour! Could one have a greater title in a sense than that? It is a moral thought that one is a man of God. He is thinking for God, and for the people of God; he is thinking for every interest of God on earth. So if the people of God are to be attacked by any one, whosoever it may be and for whatever reason, he is on the alert; he considers the matter in prayer, and with discernment. So Elisha, the man of God, says to the leading men among the people of God, that the king of Syria is to encamp at such and such a place. What an advantage! What hope was there for the king of Syria to overcome the people of God? There was no hope at all with a man of God brought into the matter.

The remaining part of the chapter shows what a man of prayer he was, for that really is the secret of it, as I began with in Matthew 6 -- entering into our closets. Any calamity threatening, that affects the people of God, the man of God enters into the breach with his weapons. They are not carnal, they are after God; and prayer is the first of all. You may be sure that prayer preceded this insight that the man of God has as to the proposed encampments of the king of Syria. He was concerned about the people of God, and the Syrians must not overcome; so as he knows the encampments of the king of Syria, he tells the king of Israel. The king of Syria is perturbed, he is troubled. What can he do? The whole matter lies in what I am saying. It is a question of a man of God, and every "man of God" would have his part in this matter, but not with carnal weapons, but divine weapons, such as God furnishes.

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So the king of Syria wonders. It looked as if there were traitors in his camp, but, as usual, there is someone who knows, even in the enemy's camp, and he tells him simply and directly that it is Elisha the prophet who is in Israel. That is the man. He must have heard of him, but he now knows, and the sequel in the chapter shows how the attack is made on the man of God. I speak now only of the secret service, that the man of God knew of the enemy's movements. It is not the priest, but a man of God and a prophet, and he frustrates the great Syrian power so that it can do nothing against the people of God. Let us be simple about this, dear brethren, and use Elisha's weapons of war, especially prayer. Much more, of course, goes with the prophet, with the man of God; he is a man that flees youthful lusts and follows righteousness, piety, faith, love, and other things that are of God. He is the man that God will use effectively against every attack on His people.

Not only so, but in the midst of all this, he brings in the character of the dispensation, which is another great point. The enemy would becloud the dispensation in which we are, indeed he is doing it today very boldly in some countries. That surely is a matter of great concern to every man of God, so that the dispensation should not be lost to view in its distinctive character. Now, the man of God in our chapter rescues that great thought of the dispensation typically, as the Syrians attack him. We have to be on our guard. There is no attack against the people of God in this country in a political sense, but as soon as the enemy discerns that we have power with God and frustrate his designs, he will attack us in some way. He attacked the man of God in Dothan, and the attendant on the man of God -- another young man -- is bewildered and afraid, saying: "Alas, my master! how shall we do?" The man of God in answer to this has recourse to his weapons, and he prays. How beautiful it is! He says, "Jehovah, I pray thee, open his eyes that he may see". And do

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we not need to have our eyes opened to what is invisible, for christianity involves what is invisible? It is not a matter of sight, but of faith: "as seeing him who is invisible". The young man's eyes were opened, and what did he see? In the early morning he saw the city surrounded by the Syrians attacking the man of God -- that is all they had in mind -- but now he sees the mountain full of horses and chariots to protect the man of God. That is the position, that God will protect His people. Whatever the character of attack, God will protect His people as in dependence upon Him, and it is all a question of this great matter of prayer. There were those who through faith overcame kingdoms. That is the point, getting into our closets, getting together, too; and what is more important than to ask God in the hour of prayer to open our eyes to see what is invisible?

So the young man saw the mountain full of horses and chariots. What could Syria do against them? What could it do against Elisha? Elisha says again to Jehovah, "Smite this nation, I pray thee, with blindness", and He did. Then Elisha, the man of God, becomes the leader, and he led the whole army into Samaria, into the very city that they would regard as their enemy, where they could have been overthrown and destroyed. The king of Israel wanted to do it, but Elisha says, No. It is now a question of the dispensation of grace in principle, for Elisha represents that. We have Christ in resurrection and ascension in Elijah, and the counterpart of that down here in Elisha. That is our position, and we do not want to have this wonderful dispensation of grace beclouded in any way. So we have the gospel that very day in Samaria. The man the Syrians sought is their leader, and he asks God to open their eyes, and He does, and the man of God directs the king of Israel to give them bread and water. It is an act of pure grace.

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Thus the position is maintained, because Christ as on the Father's throne is still active and will be active, and He would call us into this secret service in the exercise of prayer, and all that goes with the man of God. He would call us into service as qualified and we need not fear. Fear God, of course, but not the enemy. God will stand by, and so the dispensation will go on, the gospel will continue to be preached, the ministry of the assembly will continue, and the elect will be saved. The whole matter will finish according to God. May God bless the word.

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REPROACH AND GLORY

1 Peter 4:14; Exodus 13:20 - 22; Exodus 16:10; Exodus 40:34 - 38

I intend to speak of glory, wishing to show that it is in the mind of God that we should enter into it at the present time. We read of the departing glory (Ezekiel 11:23), and the returning glory (Ezekiel 43:1 - 5); one calling forth sadness and the other joy. In a public sense the glory has departed from christendom, but through individual faithfulness, as I hope to show, it may still be seen here below. The incoming of the Spirit involved glory. We are told that He appeared to the saints as cloven tongues, as of fire, and sat upon each of them. He had found a resting place. The effect of it was felt by those present in Jerusalem from the subdivisions of the empire of that day. The incoming of the divine glory found a resting place suitable to itself, but on its own terms -- that is, it appeared in the character of cloven tongues as of fire. The will of the flesh would be drastically disallowed. There was no such suggestion implied as the Spirit came on Jesus: He abode in the form of a dove on Jesus; but at Pentecost there were terms implied, for the glory carried with it the means of its own protection, so that it should not be desecrated; the tongues were there, but also the fire. The public body has moved from the divine foundation and hence the glory has retired. But this passage in Peter indicates how there may be a return; indeed the glory will always be seen where there is the acceptance of the reproach of Christ.

So Peter, who had part in the incoming of which I have been speaking, says much about glory, and in the verse I read he links it on with reproach in the name of Christ; its presence here is ensured by the acceptance of the reproach of Christ. It is "in the name", denoting a state in those who are under reproach, not for the name, but in the name, as it should read. Many are

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facing this matter in a peculiar way, and as love is working we are all facing it with them -- reproach in the name of Christ. "In the name" refers to the state of those who are under reproach, a state calling out reproach, involving a glory as the passage goes on to say, "the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God", as I believe it should read. That is, there are two thoughts, the Spirit of glory, and the Spirit of God. It is no partial matter; it is a complete thought as regards a resting place for the glory, for that is the word used, "the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you".

Now I mention all that so as to link up my remarks with Exodus, for this agrees with what Exodus sets out, and I wish to confine my thoughts in the main to the glory as seen in that book. Peter links with Exodus in his ministry in these two epistles, writing "to the sojourners of the dispersion" (1 Peter 1:1), believing Jews, sojourning in those provinces in the west; he implies that they are there under the government of God; they are not in Canaan any more; externally they are of the dispersion. Whoever might have been the instrument of it, they were suffering under the government of God and Peter has in mind to show that, in the acceptance of the reproach that God may allow in His government, the testimony of Exodus reappears, and there is a resting place for the glory of God.

You can see therefore, dear brethren, how this is within the range of every christian, how he or she may become a resting place for the glory; and as I said, the word reproach links on significantly with Exodus; one may say that it is the foundation of the glory that so shines in the typical teaching of that book. It is the book in which Moses shines peculiarly in this sense. The thought of God is that the ministry is to be enhanced by the minister, and He had in mind that the ministry He was about to place in the hands of this great minister was to be enhanced by him. The Spirit

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of God tells us that three women were used in his salvation -- his mother, his sister, and Pharaoh's daughter -- showing that whilst the enemy was set on destroying the males, God used females for the preservation of the greatest of the males spoken of in this book, his very name being given to him by Pharaoh's daughter -- he was "drawn out". If the enemy in Pharaoh would destroy the males and save the females alive, God would say, I can use these, too. The blindness of Pharaoh led him to think that the Israelitish women could help to build up his kingdom, and that the males could be destroyed; but three females saved this greatest of the males in Israel! Besides this, the male children of Israel were already being saved alive by the midwives. Thus God frustrates the wisdom of this world.

Moses became a prince in Egypt, but he humbly accepted the reproach of Christ; that is one point of special importance in this book. There can be no resting place, or residence for the glory of God in this world of sin, save as the reproach of Christ is accepted. It is a word for the present moment. "If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you". Moses, as I said, led the way in this and hence qualified to unfold the glory, as seen in the book of Exodus.

Now I am sure we are all interested in these suggestions. No one of us should elect himself out of this matter, for it is within his reach. The reproach attached not only to Moses; it was there before he accepted it; however many of us have accepted it, it was there before, thank God! It lay in the people of God as they were at that time, down-trodden slaves in Egypt reproachfully termed "Hebrews"; the reproach was there and Moses accepted it. It has been here all the time, rarely accepted; but wherever accepted the glory is present. Moses found it in Egypt and in accepting it he became glorious morally, never more glorious in his earlier history than when he went out

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to see his brethren, the Hebrews, and looked upon their burdens (Exodus 2:11 - 13). He esteemed the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt (Hebrews 11:26).

I want now to show how all this, while based on the acceptance of the reproach of Christ, must hinge on obedience, an element that is becoming rarer and rarer every day in this world. The Lord Jesus has led the way in this; we must learn everything from God through Him. God says to Moses, "I am come down to deliver them"; typically it was in Christ. We might stress the word down. The way up in this world is well occupied, some very far up, marvellously acquiring glory according to man, rising out of obscurity, out of the sea; but who is great enough to show and lead the way down, but God, in Christ? "I am come down", He says, "to deliver" (Exodus 3:8). Moses had already come down, he would thus understand. He had come down in the house of Pharaoh, in going out to look on his brethren the Hebrews. Later he fled to Midian, descending there to be a shepherd for the priest of Midian, abandoning for ever the glory of Pharaoh's house. Thus he would appreciate the force of the divine word; it is as we are in the circumstances of a thing that we understand it, nor do I think we can understand anything aright save as we are in the circumstances characterising it. Moses was in the circumstances of humiliation, and God says, I am come down to those circumstances, I am going to be with you in them.

In man the principle underlying this is obedience, and Christ has led the way in it (Philippians 2:8). The gospel call is for obedience, "obedience of faith among all nations" (Romans 1:5). No one is worthy of the name of christian who is not characteristically obedient as under divine rule. According to the passage read in Exodus 13, God had come down and was effecting the deliverance of His people, and as they began to move out of Egypt He went before them, "in a pillar of a cloud to

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lead them in the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light". The glory is there; it is in the pillar. How could it be there save as the people were moving in obedience? How could God's glory rest in any sense in Egypt, save as the principle of obedience was there? So as they began to journey, the cloud -- Jehovah Himself was there -- went before them. Think of the divine descent to be in this position to serve us! To serve us as coming out of the world.

Is there anyone here whose heart is in the world? We all pity you. We do indeed, and we want you out. God wants you out of the world and He proposes to take you out by glory -- that is what He intends to do. We have not the Ark yet; the Ark is said to be the power of God and the glory of God; it gave a lead to the people in the wilderness; it is not seen yet, its movements are to be seen after Sinai; but the cloud is here and God is in it. It is not simply something sent down; God is in it, and in it to serve, that is, to guide by day and be a light by night. Think of the divine descent to be that to us, to lead us out of the world! As soon as we begin to move God says, I am going to be this to you. I would, therefore, appeal to anyone who is yet in the world; we pity you, as in Satan's domain. God wants you out, as I said. He is here to serve you, that you might move out, not in any meagre way, but by glory. He serves you by glory; the cloud by day, and the fire by night, so that you can travel day and night. This matter of getting out of the world will not admit in the divine mind of any halting at all, but steady movement by day and by night. God says, I am with you in the day -- in your school, at your desk, in your work-shop or kitchen, and in your bedroom in the night; and I am going to make you a residence for My glory, too. Israel was not yet that, not in Egypt; it was in the cloud and in the pillar of fire. The tabernacle would be the divine residence and it represented the saints as builded together.

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Now Exodus 16 contemplates that the people are out. I hope everyone in this room takes that ground. There are many young people here and God is speaking to you as to whether you are out of the world, and if you are out whether you are going to stay out. That is the next point. The brethren are burdened according to love, all the time, with young people who take their stand in relation to the death of Christ -- that is, baptism and the Lord's supper. The older brethren and the brethren generally are constantly concerned about them. Are you going to remain in the fellowship, true to the stand you have taken? God says, I will see to it, that as far as I am concerned you will do so and thus not return to Egypt; so as Israel looked toward the wilderness they saw the glory. It is not God verbally urging you forward into a sterile wilderness, but attracting you by His glory to go that way, the promised land being the great end in view. It will be glory on the way and glory eternally. In His thoughtfulness, God did not lead the people by the land of the Philistines, lest as seeing war they might return to Egypt, but led them by the wilderness of the Red Sea. God has great consideration for young people, first to get them out of the world and then to keep them out, and hence He sets up the glory in the wilderness. In result it is Himself, as dwelling among His people, and what can be more attractive to those who love Him? Aaron is here, the link with the glory. As he spoke to the people they turned toward the wilderness and "behold, the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud". Aaron is the priest, not yet officially appointed, but when he is appointed his very clothes are glorious.

This opens up a wide field of precious instruction. Aaron made priest is typically Christ definitely undertaking the service of love Godward and manward. The young believer begins to see Him thus; even in Romans 8:34 it is said that as at the right hand of God, He intercedes for us. Hebrews treats

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fully of this great subject and tells us that we have Christ as Priest in heaven and that He sympathises with us in our infirmities, carrying on the service of love continually. The believer sees that he has a place in Christ's heart and His personal graces, which are glorious, shine before him. As you get on spiritually you begin to understand, as you look at chapters 28 and 29 of Exodus, that they present the glorious dress of the High Priest and that High Priest is for you. It is not only what He says as in chapter 16, but what He is in His clothes in chapters 28 and 29. The young christian thus sees Christ as Priest and as occupied with Him he takes on His character as Man and becomes himself relatively glorious, he is also a priest, one of the sons of Aaron. Chapter 28:40 says that they also have glorious clothes. God says, I must bring in the sons, too, the sons of Aaron, and they are to have glorious dresses as well.

So you see, young people, the brethren have glorious attire also, and why not you? God presents things objectively to us in Christ; and we see them, we admire them, and as we admire them we appropriate them, and the Spirit of God is ready to form us and make the matter fixed in our souls. That is the idea, and how wonderful when the thought dawns upon you that you belong to the priesthood! You will say, I can never go back into those unclean circumstances in which I once found my pleasure; never can I go to those worldly resorts, I am a priest. It is not only what Christ is, not only what the saints are, in that glorious attire, but what I am. How great and glorious is the divine way! It is a radiant way; even the journey out of Egypt is a way of glory.

Then in the wilderness we are similarly guided -- the glory is now more definite and attractive, as we see in chapter 16, as I have been saying. You do not now speak of the brethren as they or them, but we and us; we are all glorious; as Christ is, so are we, John says

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(1 John 4:17). How he would whisper that into our ears! It is "as He is", not "as He was"; what He is today in heaven, so are we. You may say, yes, viewed as in heaven. No, but as actually here in this world. What a thought that is! It enters into our preservation. In the light of these things each young believer here will surely say, I can never go back; I cannot soil such clothes.

Then another thing comes out in Exodus -- the shining of Moses' face, one of the most interesting things in the book. Moses had said to Jehovah, "Let me ... see thy glory" (Exodus 33:18); he had a great admiration for divine glory, and one covets that. We are prepared for glory (Romans 9:23), and Paul says, "our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory"; thus we should cultivate the desire for it, and we become equal to it and have part in it as we behold the glory of the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:18). Moses had a great thought of glory. He says to Jehovah, I would like to see Your glory. Moses had some, as we have seen; but he desired to see Jehovah's glory. He says, "Shew me thy glory". He had a great conception of glory. God loves that in us; our conception of it cannot be too great for Him for He is infinitely beyond our greatest conception; but I am sure He loved to hear Moses asking Him to show him His glory. Jehovah says, "There is a place by me: there shalt thou stand on the rock", and when His glory passed by He would hide His servant in the cleft of the rock. The time had not come for Moses to see it. But there is some glory, for God says to Moses, "Thou shalt see me from behind" (Exodus 33:21 - 23); hence, Moses' face shone. 2 Corinthians 3 alludes to this, and chapter 4 states that the glory of God is now in the face of Jesus Christ.

One loves to move from the first epistle to the Corinthians to the second epistle. It is as though the apostle Paul would say, I have got the Corinthians moving.

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They were settling down in Corinth with their parties. If they had their parties in the assembly, as chapter 11 shows, you may be sure they had their tea parties with their friends in their homes; they would follow society ways. Many of them were not leaving the world; they were in Corinth and following its ways. But in the second letter it is as if Paul would say, I have got them moving and I will keep them moving. How will they be kept moving? By the glory. And not one glory alone, but "from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18). Think of the magnificence of that thought! And then in order to fix it in our limited minds he says, "in the face of Jesus Christ" (chapter 4:6) -- enough to draw us and to keep us out of the world. From the second epistle it is clear the Corinthians were moving from their worldly moorings. I hope everybody here is moving. The glory is what God has in mind to effect this.

Moses went up to the mount and God causes His glory to pass by. What a moment it must have been to Moses -- as Jehovah proclaims His name in His ears, His glory passing by him and he seeing Jehovah from behind! The mediator came down with his face shining -- another beautiful thought added to the priesthood -- that the ministration of the covenant to us is in glory, glory in the face of a man. It is wonderful, involving suffering and reproach, of course; but it is in those enduring the reproach and the suffering that the glory has a resting place. I bring in the thought of the priest and of the mediator, both radiant, the priest in his clothes, and the mediator in his face, to show how we are held out of the world and kept going, so as to enter into the realm of life and glory that God has in mind for us.

In the last passage read, chapter 40, we have the full thought, for the full thought of God is not in one person accepting reproach. He will cause His glory to shine there, as we have seen; but the thought of God in Exodus 40 is that the glory should reside in the

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saints as builded together; and if I love the saints I do not wish any of them to be out of this great privilege and blessing. It is a wonderful thing to be in the residence of the glory; all the saints are essential, they are all in it in their wealth; their giving, as seen in this book, was magnificent (we have had it mentioned here today), the giving of the saints is one of the features of glory at the present time. Indeed those who look after the giving of the saints are "messengers of assemblies, Christ's glory" (2 Corinthians 8:23). Giving is one feature of the glory that we are brought into. God would remind us of it and bring us into it in a practical way, so that you see in the people in Israel their giving had to be restrained; there was abundance given and the tabernacle is constructed by suitable men furnished of God and everything, item after item, passes through the hand of the mediator. This means that each of us has to be approved of Christ so as to have part in the tabernacle -- the residence of the divine glory. Do I hesitate in being examined or looked over by Him? The apostle says, "He that examines me is the Lord" (1 Corinthians 4:4). The divine intent is that I am to be in the assembly, as of the body of Christ, fitted there as "approved" of the Lord; and thus part of that in which God dwells, in which His glory is seen. Moses scrutinises each item of the tabernacle and puts it into its place, and it is functioning as there; and the Spirit says, "And so Moses finished the work" (Exodus 40:33). That word "finished" is most important; he finished the work and the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle, the glory inside, but outside it was in the form of a cloud.

Now having reached that point I want to link it on with the passage read in Peter again, so that everyone here will leave this hall with a sense that it is within his range individually to be a resting place for the glory, and as such to link himself up with all others who are; the more such are together according to God,

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the greater the range for divine activities. So you will observe that Peter remarks in verses 12 and 13, "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you; but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy". I read these verses in connection with verse 14, knowing as I do that certain of us are facing a serious test, and we are all facing it if we have divine love in our hearts; and we want to have love in the form of sympathy. Sympathy is a great medium of love, conveying, as to what I have referred to, that it is our matter; it is a matter for every christian practically, everyone who loves Christ and who loves the saints.

And we are to look at what some of our young brethren are now experiencing from Peter's standpoint, the government of God. There are two lines running down the history of the testimony: what God is in grace to men, God serving men in that way, making clothes for them, etc., as for Adam and Eve. The other line is that of government. God has put these two lines together; they run together, they serve each other -- grace and government. So Peter is concerned about this. The believers to whom he is writing, possibly many of them Paul's converts, are in his province, as the apostle of the circumcision. The Lord's departmental ordering is remarkable; He has His departments and He would have each in his department, so that there may be no interference in each other's work; so that Peter is the apostle of the circumcision, Paul of the uncircumcision (Galatians 2:8). But in normal circumstances, if Paul and Peter met in an assembly they would serve together happily; the number twenty-four, as in David's ordering, implies that; they would serve unjealously. Barnabas is a great example of an unjealous state in a servant, and Peter showed it magnificently when he said, "Our beloved brother Paul" (2 Peter 3:15). I should like to see these two

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brothers meet in an assembly in Asia Minor, where many were Jewish converts; they had met earlier -- not long after Paul was converted he went a long way to see Peter, an important matter for young ministers; they should make the acquaintance of and observe those longer in the service, spiritual men, and understand their outlook and way. Paul tells us that he spent fifteen days with Peter. They would get mutual impressions of each other, I suppose, that they never lost and never will lose; I shall hope to see them together in the future. Acts 9 and 10 and Peter's epistles show that his ministry supported and promoted Paul's. They are the great servants, seen in Scripture as the leading apostles, Peter to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles.

Peter here is serving in his own department, so to speak, addressing the sojourners of the dispersion. They had been introduced into a new, heavenly order of things, outside of this world, but he says as regards their position outwardly they were part of the dispersion; they were suffering under the government of God. They needed to distinguish between the government of God, and the grace and counsels of God, the counsels of His love, in which they now had part. That is what Peter's epistles instruct us in. So that the perfect government of God is running parallel with His grace. As understanding this I humbly and thankfully submit to the governments that exist as ordered of Him. There may be reproach and suffering in various ways (Christ and His apostles having endured these); but nevertheless I bow to those in authority and regard whatever comes to me through them as God's ordering -- His government indeed. Peter says, "Honour the king" (1 Peter 2:17). You may say, what king? Whatever king is ruling, honour him. Then he says, "If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye". It is the blessedness of the state the believer is in. I am reproached in the name, I am in a state reflecting Christ and am thus under reproach; I am under reproach

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not exactly for Christ, but as in His name; and Peter would indicate that I am corresponding with the glory in Exodus. In the name of Christ I am under reproach, and the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God is resting on me. There can be no doubt about the moral value of the Spirit of glory, inasmuch as the Spirit of God is also there, so that I am perfectly, I may say, in salvation, I am in victory and I am representative of God. One is thus the residence, to that extent, of the glory of God. May God bless these words to us!

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FOOD IN SEASON

Luke 12:42 - 44; 1 Kings 4:7,8,27; Revelation 22:2

My subject is food, food, as indicated in these scriptures, provided seasonally, covering the whole year; and when I say "the whole year", I have in mind "the acceptable year of the Lord" (Luke 4:19), that is, this dispensation in which we are. It is about to end, but still, perhaps, a month or so remaining: at least, it has not yet expired, and hence the need of food. It is the acceptable year of the Lord, a year of unequalled importance, all the best fruits of the previous ones (or dispensations) coming into it. The psalmist says to God, "Thou crownest the year with thy goodness" (Psalm 65:11). It would appear, indeed, that the psalmist had in mind that the whole year would be full of goodness, but would be crowned. That is, if we may read it thus, as is said, "Thou crownest the year of thy goodness", without specifying what the crown is. If, on the other hand, it be as in the ordinary translation, that He crowns it with His goodness we are to expect now a signal evidence of divine goodness in this period of the year, this wonderful year of grace.

So that we may understand the use of the word "year" in this connection; the Lord, in referring to Isaiah 61, undoubtedly confirms that this dispensation is so regarded divinely in His saying, "to preach the acceptable year of the Lord". The year is the longest period of measured time, and with God, a year in itself is brief, for a thousand of them are said to be as one day with Him; on the other hand, one day is with Him as one thousand years (2 Peter 3:8). We must therefore learn to let God speak of things from His own point of view. He is pleased to speak of them from ours, for, in grace, He comes down to our side in instructing us; but the more we progress in the school of God the more we shall take His point of view. He begins indeed with a

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day, and works in it, too, so that He can come down to a day and an hour. One of the greatest transactions takes place in "the twinkling of an eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52). God takes the smallest measures of time and does great things in them. How many such things have been done in this year of grace, in the myriads of conversions -- every one a miracle! So it is being filled out, from God's side, with peculiar satisfaction, for He is occupied with the good in it, with what He is doing Himself, and with its results, and, in order that the results should yield, He has introduced the idea of food for every month of the year.

As I said, we have to understand what He has in mind. The year is spoken of in various ways in Scripture. We have the solar year, which may be regarded as the longest, regulated by the great lights in the heavens, by the sun and even by the moon. That is the first kind of year, and God committed Himself to that after the deluge. He reverts to it, and says it is to continue, but in measure of seed-time and harvest, cold and heat, etc. (Genesis 8:22). Seed-time is the first mentioned, and then harvest; corresponding with that we have later, the idea of a year reckoned according to its crops. God, as it were, passing over all the doings of man and reckoning the year according to its crop for Him, for in truth that is what the year is for, to bring out something for God.

Then again, He is pleased to regard the year, in a spiritual sense, as affording Him special opportunities with His people -- the holy convocations covering seven months of the year. God reckons the year thus, and insists upon it too, that, in our calculations in the solar year, we must not forget what is due to God in our holy convocations. They are necessarily limited, for we cannot spend all our time together; but God certainly asserts His right to some of it, and to our best in these comings together. "All the males in Israel" is what God looks for. The principle in this reference

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to the males is that there is the intelligent side, in which, of course, sisters share with the brothers. It is a question of our state. In the provision in Deuteronomy 16, God has in mind what we may call special selections of persons; He is entitled to the best at any time, and He would say, I would like to have the year filled out with these occasions, taking full account of our limitations. He makes special provision for our affairs at home, whilst attending these holy convocations. They are for God; for us, of course, too. He reduces the convocations to three in Deuteronomy, although Leviticus provides for seven. God graciously accommodates Himself to us, as much as to intimate: I value these holy convocations, and if I cannot have seven, I want three, and it is a question of the males. God would say, That is a year, too. What one might call, not an agricultural year, though it is well-nigh commensurate with it, but a spiritual year. The agricultural year is a question of crops which would necessarily end before the last month.

Well now, I am defining the idea of the year briefly in that way so that we may all understand God's mind as to these occasions, and fill out His year, as He would have us do. From the gospel point of view, He would use up every month of the year; He would have it preached "in season and out of season" (2 Timothy 4:2). The year is for a purpose, and has been extended, in a metaphorical sense, to the great "acceptable year of the Lord". We can see how much enters into it, and how it is to be sustained on the principle of twelve, that is, the twelve months of the ordinary year; so that we come now to this seasonal provision which He has described. It involves cultivation of the land, not now only on God's account, but also on ours, and so, as I said, referring to the psalm, we see how He makes it possible for cultivation to result in what is needed. The potential qualities of the earth make it possible, for the potential possibilities are creative; God has placed them there,

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but then, not only has He placed them there, He also furnishes the rain to water the earth in its season: that is what the psalm says. I refer to Psalm 65. God is wonderfully bountiful in His creation. What I. am saying implies that God, in creating, provided for the administrative side; that is, that the "fulness" of what He created should be developed, including cultivation, so that suitable food should come round seasonally. God makes it possible, not only in what He has placed in the earth in creating it, but in the furnishing of rain, and rivers, so that there is plenty of water. It says indeed, in the psalm referred to, "the river of God ... is full of water", but the river is not the only means that God has of watering; rain comes from the clouds in a more effective way, but the river seems to be a sort of reservoir that God can use too. In some parts of the earth, there is no rain, but there are rivers. It is God's wonderful bounty, so that, in cultivation, there should be seasonal food for men, hence no one should starve.

So this verse in Luke begins with the thought of administration. The Lord had spoken a parable, bearing on His coming; the whole chapter is urgent in view of His coming. He urges watching, and other things, and Peter inquires as to whether He is speaking for others, or for the apostles, those near to Him. The Lord does not answer him directly, but says, "Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom his lord will set over his household, to give the measure of corn in season?" There seems to be here an allusion to the passage in 1 Kings. We may be sure that the Lord would have in mind the whole of Scripture. Of course, He was the One who gave the Scriptures, but He became Man and took the place of a servant, and used Scripture, knowing where to turn as He needed a scripture. As risen from among the dead, as you all remember, He began at Moses in expounding things about Himself to two people. One often thinks of the Lord in this respect, how ready He was to minister to

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one or two, or to five thousand or more; five thousand at once, besides women and children.

It is an example for us, and, in ministering to two straying saints, He began at Moses. What a rebuke that is to the modernist who would set Moses aside! We have heard of the mistakes of Moses, from blasphemous mouths; but the Lord spoke of his writings as Scripture, and said, "if ye do not believe his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:47). Wonderful that the Lord should put Moses in front in that way, and he is in front, in that sense; the first Scripture writer, the great minister God provided for His people -- mediator, prophet, and scribe, and as a servant, faithful in all God's house. The Lord refers to his writings. He began there, and expounded the Scriptures to them. That is what they then needed. They were low down in their souls, but an exposition would be intelligible even to such, and that was what they had, the most wonderful exposition perhaps that had ever been given. "He expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). I refer to that as an example for us, in this matter of food, for in the forty days after He rose, the Lord made it an important matter; on one occasion providing a first-class meal, as I might call it; not an ordinary meal, for His invitation to Peter and those who with him had gone away to fish was, Come and dine; not come and eat. The word suggests the chief meal of the day. Evidently He prepared it Himself. Think of the grace of Christ in that! Let the word speak to every one of us. The Lord served thus seven of the straying brethren (John 21:12).

Is He not doing it today for such? There are many straying ones and He is ready to feed them. It may be that some here tonight are among them; not that you are straying in coming in here. Whatever motive actuates you, you have come where you may get a bit of food; I hope so. In calling attention to what the Lord did, I would point out how His remarks in this

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chapter in Luke have in mind to challenge us as to who is ready to be in this administrative position, to furnish "the measure of corn in season". It is a seasonal matter, the whole year is in mind, and it is a question now of what is to be in the end; for God is crowning the year with His goodness; and who would elect himself out of that, or fail to take sides with God in the provision of His goodness, in the way of food, in these closing moments of the day? "The night cometh, when no man can work" (John 9:4). It is a time for doing. I am not ignoring what I have said about the night all around us, but, in another sense, it is a time of workmanship, "the night cometh when no man can work". "Who then is the faithful and prudent steward?" the Lord says. He makes a great deal of it, He would set him over all that He has. That is what He thinks of food, for we shall die if we do not eat; there is no question about that. Divine love cannot suffer that, hence the great honour conferred on him who provides a measure of corn in season, meaning that he knows the season of the year.

So coming to Solomon, who is representative of all this, as following out the example of his father David, he appointed these officers, one for each month. Who is the servant that the Lord would appoint? Well, what kind of men were these whom Solomon appointed? I wish the brethren would just ponder this a little and listen carefully. I would refer to the peculiarity of this scripture. It is a question of food, and food produced by care, by the appointment of officers, not mere ordinary workmen, not mere farm hands, as we say, but men skilled in the art of agriculture, that is what they would be. How much need there is of instruction in this phase of divine service. These officers would represent men thus skilled as to the productive qualities of the different lands over which they were to superintend. There are twelve of them. The Authorised Version reads, "the son of Hur", etc., the original is Ben-Hur, and most of the names here correspond. It is

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not simply a name of a certain person, the son of a certain man, although that does appear in one or two instances, but the name of each of the persons is designated by a combination of the word son with the name of his father. That is how he is designated: "Ben-Hur", literally, "son of Hur", but that is his name. What kind of a man is he? He is not an ordinary labourer filling out his day and going home to rest; he is a man of intelligence in agriculture; a man who gained something from his father whose name also meant something, which he would carry down. I can understand a brother saying, I would like to be like that. He is a son, but his father's name added to the relation between them is his name. That man has feelings and outlook similar to his father, or the Spirit of God would not connect his father's name with his name in this combined sense. I might say, it is a hyphenated name, but what does it mean? It carries on what the father was, in the son, so that he is known. If I know the father I know him, and he is to sustain the name of his father. He has it, it is already his, and he is to sustain that. How is he to sustain it? By his work, by the way he does things. He has poor land, may be. Some of these territories mentioned would doubtless not be equal to others, some parts of the land were extremely prolific, some not so; but the whole territory was farmed out in this way to these men, the qualities of whose fathers marked them. The name "Hur" -- what does it mean? And so as to all the list. Their names imply that the fathers of these men are carried down to us in their sons.

How is it with the young men of today spiritually? No one should have it said of him derisively, "Who is his father?" as was said of Saul. If I am begotten of a religious system that is not of God, I shall be ashamed of my father, or my mother, but not so here. Who is our father? God raised up remarkable men in the days immediately preceding ours, but as here now, are we their sons? Can I, as it were, add any of them

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to my name? You will understand what I mean: I am speaking of the spirit of these things. Is the spirit of the recovery that God effected, carried down so as to be vividly before us? I am not advocating that the former days were better than these, for if the men used of God are carried down in their sons, their sons will surely add; that is the principle in Solomon, to add to what was effected. So that, it is not that we should be boastful, surely, but if the thing is carried down, it is added to, and if I am not adding to it, where am I? What am I, if I do not belong to this list, the Ben-Hurs and the rest?

I want to point out, dear brethren, that these men were up to the mark. In the last verse I read in the chapter it is said, they lacked nothing; they furnished what was needed at Solomon's table, and we know something about Solomon's table. In verse 27 it is said that those officers provided victuals for it. In no period of the year was there lack of food; food provided by skilled hands and brought to where it was needed. I wish presently to speak of our coming to where the food is, but here it is brought to where it was needed, the most august table there was -- that of the king. Think of the persons at his table! In our chapter, we are told exactly how much he needed every day. There is not a hint that he did not have enough, and may I not suggest that, at times like the present, we feel ourselves at Solomon's table? I do; and the Lord would encourage us to go on. In David's case, for instance, there was no slackening on great occasions. In the bringing back of the ark, you remember how he dealt out of his bounty, to every man and woman in Israel. At the close of such seasons as these, there should be no slackening of energy. If there is slackening in the ministry, it is in the poor weak vessels the Lord has to use: but from His side there is no slackening at all. As to the saints generally, it is a question of measure on our side, as in the case of Ruth -- the cloak was her measure. You get your measure full, and that, of

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course, is enough. I do not suppose the Lord can trust any of us with much more than we can take in and make use of; so here they lacked nothing. It is a question of the skill the Lord gives, and bounty in this administrative way.

I was speaking of the creative side, how God, as seen in the psalm referred to, provided not only the earth, but the rain and all that was needed so that man should have food. One always finds liberty in giving thanks to God as the Creator. It is done little now in the world, but it is done amongst those who love God; and the psalm says, He crowns the year with His goodness; there is no slackening at all. I am speaking thus to stimulate us, because we are coming to the end of this wonderful year, and each would aspire, normally, I am sure, to have part in this administrative matter, not only to partake of the food at Solomon's table, but to have part in providing it; bringing into it as a son the qualities of a father used of God.

Paul says, "Ye have not many fathers" (1 Corinthians 4:15). He claimed that relation with the saints. We have the children of Paul; his aim was to make them like himself. You will understand that I am not putting Paul instead of God. What I am speaking of is God's way, for Paul addresses Timothy as his child, he addresses the Corinthians as his children, and we have it with John, too. The apostles have a moral right to do that; but then it attaches more or less to anyone whom God uses in a formative way. Why should there not be children, sons characteristically of those who have gone before? If there are, the spirit and quality of earlier ministry is carried down, and the former days are not any better; they are carried down to us in the power of the Spirit, and we want to add to them. "Thou shalt add" (1 Chronicles 22:14), says David to Solomon, and he is doing it according to the chapter before us; he is adding to what David had. According to 1 Chronicles, his father had twenty-four thousand men working for him in each month. Solomon brings it down to one

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superintendent for each month. How many workers under each is not stated, but there must have been a good many to till all the land. Jacob was said to be a field blessed of Jehovah, that is what he was potentially; and so Canaan had to be tilled so as to support the population that God had brought in, "a great people that cannot be numbered" (1 Kings 3:8), Solomon said. I am speaking of Solomon's table, it is a question of privilege, and the food must be the very best. If you look at the list given, you will see how bountiful it was. There are many who elect themselves out of all that, therefore I am speaking to enlist interest, that we may be at Solomon's table; it is laden with the very best.

The next thing is to appropriate it and make use of it so that it becomes formative, and as I eat alongside of Solomon, I become like him. The Lord's table is linked up with all this, but I only wish to suggest what enters into each celebration of the Lord's supper; what food and drink is, in the bread and the cup -- the principle is eating and drinking. Psalm 104:15 tells us that, "with bread he strengtheneth man's heart", and that "wine ... gladdeneth the heart of man". You will understand that I am not saying that in Scripture wine is formally connected with the Lord's supper; I am only using the word as in the psalm referred to.

I want to close by commenting on the passage in Revelation, to show how the months of the year are maintained, but not by tillage. Tillage is most important, as I have been saying. Solomon speaks of "the tillage of the poor", in which there is "much food" (Proverbs 13:23). I have been speaking of skilled men, but then, there is the tillage of the poor. There are many poor in a spiritual sense. It is because of no tillage. Tillage is in myself; I am the field. I am not saying that the Lord does not enter into this; the food is really Christ, also what He provides, but then tillage does not refer to Christ, it refers to each of us. It referred to Jacob; he was the field which the Lord had blessed; so that God

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would put us to work in the sense of tillage, making the most of what I have. I shall not lack, but it is a question of exercise. There are many small meetings; one sees them and feels for the brethren in such circumstances; the tendency is to die, as the widow of Zarephath had in mind (1 Kings 17). Thank God, there are many vigorous large meetings, where there is food; but in these smaller places there is a tendency to let our hands hang down. 'We have no gift', and other such remarks are heard; but then, the tillage of the poor meets this position, it is making the most of what we have. There will be something; you will not die of hunger. God would awaken us as to this, because there is a great tendency to weakness and death in the smaller gatherings. Tillage, as I said, would prevent that. There is the gracious bounty of God constantly coming down, and the river of God, full of water; all available to faith, so that there should be no letting of the hands hang down, but rather doing whatsoever our hands find to do. We shall thus find the meetings will become living.

I was referring to the tree of life; it is one of the most precious subjects. In speaking to the overcomer at Ephesus, the Lord Himself speaks of it: "the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7). The overcomer partakes of that. It is a living man, an energetic man, the Lord is alluding to, an overcomer in Ephesus. He is stirring up energy, He is offering this great advantage to one who overcomes, one maintaining His rights in the midst of declension. He says, "I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God". That is in chapter 2; what I have read is in chapter 22, and it presents the Tree of Life in a very special way. In the midst of the street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the Tree of Life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit. Referring to ourselves, the Tree of Life has been available since Pentecost: it is Christ in heaven. Here it is seen in relation to the coming period of blessing.

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It is in the midst of the street of the city, and on either side of the river. Today it is available to faith. The river involves the Spirit. It is the river of grace, clear as crystal, but the river of energy and of fruitfulness. The power in which I appropriate the Tree of Life is the Spirit. The Ephesian saint understands. If he is an overcomer at Ephesus, he understands the epistle to the Ephesians, and that epistle teaches that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. This wonderful passage implies that christians have access there, that we can say: And see, the Spirit's power Has ope'd the heavenly door. (Hymn 74) Think of that! It is a question of intelligence and energy, energy to acquire what is in the paradise of God.

Paul had this opportunity, as we know; he could tell us about the paradise of God. I do not suppose any saint knows as much of it as he did. He was caught up as far as the third heaven, but into paradise -- what joy! In our passage we read of the twelve months of the year. Paul, we may say, partook of the January fruit; ours is the December fruit of the Tree of Life. The month of December affords the fruit of the Tree of Life, as does the month of January, June, or any month of the year. The Tree of Life bears twelve fruits, that is, it is seasonal, each month has its fruit. Whatever month I am in I get its fruit. Whatever there is today, I want it. The Tree of Life is always blooming, always bearing fruit, and available on either side of the river for us, so that we may be maintained seasonally. Whatever our month, we understand the whole dispensation; it is a question of the twelve months, and I am in one of them, and that one is as favourable as the others. That is all, dear brethren; may God bless the word.

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JUDGMENT

1 Corinthians 11:31,32; 1 Corinthians 5:12,13; 1 Corinthians 10:15; 1 Corinthians 14:29; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15

It is in mind, dear brethren, to speak at this time about judgment. The subject has, of course, a great place in Scripture, but these epistles are in mind especially. They speak of the subject more than any other epistle in the New Testament, and they bear in this respect as in others on the assembly. My thought is, as I hope to show, that the idea of judgment occurs in various connections, covering the wide field occupied by the assembly. Without this element being active, the assembly would soon cease in a moral sense, in fact, it has ceased to function in the full public sense in which it appeared at the beginning, just because of the neglect of judgment. The thought of the assembly has been recovered, but the assembly itself, in the true sense of the word, is no longer in evidence. The truth concerning it has been restored to us, and this principle of judgment is most essential to the continuance of the light we have, and the continuance of the service belonging to the assembly in whatever measure it may be entered upon. The idea of judgment, as all else, is derived from Christ. His position, as apprehended by the leaders at Jerusalem, was outwardly somewhat like our own now. He stood at the bar of the high priest, that is, the religious authority, also before Pilate, the political authority of the day; He stood before these tribunals to be judged, and we have to learn from Him how to maintain judgment in ourselves in the presence of those who, in a judicial position, are wrongly using their office against us. Whether directly or indirectly, whether formal or informal, judgment is being pronounced against those who are of the assembly, the true followers of Christ, who, as loving Him, keep His commandments.

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So as apprehended by the authorities, our Lord is wrongly smitten and, fulfilling the word of the prophet, He is smitten on the cheek, although, as the prophet states, He is the Judge of Israel, the One into whose hand all judgment is committed. The Lord has suffered here in righteousness; He was smitten on the cheek, with an accusation, implying that He had transgressed, that He should not have answered the high priest so. The Lord's reply was, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why smitest thou me?" (John 18:23). That in brief is the position now. In saying those words the Lord allowed Himself to be judged, and not only smitten on the cheek, but crucified, and it was as the Judge of Israel. All true judgment rested in Him and it will in due time manifest itself. We hail that day. In the meantime our preservation from corruption, and our continuance in the light we have received, which has been restored to us, depends on the maintenance of judgment within our sphere, not in regard of those without, as the apostle says, but those within, and, of course, each beginning with himself. The most difficult person of all for me to judge is myself.

To have a right judgment of oneself one needs to be a spiritual analyst, discerning the elements that are at work within; otherwise I will be liable to consider that evil is good and good is evil. Hence the great difficulty apparent with many of arriving at a right judgment each of himself; for it is obvious I cannot judge at all, whether persons or things, save as I have managed to exercise authority in judgment over myself, as the great discerner of these matters in Romans 7:18 says, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell". That was the outcome of an analysis as to inward workings, so that he comes out triumphantly saying, "I myself" -- "I myself", not simply "I", but I in consciousness and in conscious control of his mind, that he has authority over his mind. He says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law" (verse 25). He has reached firm

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ground, and henceforth he is capable of judging other persons and other things, for he is clear of himself. He is clear in the sense of arriving at an analysis as to himself, as to what is in himself as a natural man, unregenerate. "I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell". He has given up the effort to improve what is unimprovable -- a wise decision. He is master of the position within the narrow limits of himself. Being master of it he may widen out in the exercise of judgment, even as far as taking part, as we shall all do presently, in the judgment of the world, and in the judgment of angels too. We can only proceed in this ever widening, as I may say, field of judgment, as we firmly reach the point as to ourselves. "I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law", and only that. It is not that he resolved to do anything with the flesh; he had already done with it, but if it did show itself, it would only be to do sin's law.

Well, it was on this ground, dear brethren, that the apostle says in this chapter in the first letter, "if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged". That is, it is within our range to avoid all judgment either from God or from man, it is within our province to avoid all righteous judgment. There may be, as in the Lord's case, false judgment, but in regard to God's judgment and righteous judgment in the assembly, or of man, it is within our power to avoid it by judging ourselves. There is no lesson more important, and I would commend it especially to the young ones here to master the mind. It is the great faculty that God has given every one of us, that with it I resolve to serve God's law, not here simply a specific law, but whatever it may be. Applying that to our chapter, it is a question of what is in mind -- my conduct in the assembly.

It requires more attention than I could give it now, but it is conduct in the assembly the apostle is dealing with; conduct arising from special friendship contracted in social relations with the brethren. One of

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the most baneful things amongst us is special friendships contracted in our social relations in our houses, and then these brought into the assembly. God abhors it, and He has put His hand up, as it were, against that traffic. It must stop. So the way to it is to judge oneself; otherwise God will judge us, as the apostle points out. The Lord will do it in very great patience and consideration for us, of course. He does not wish to have us condemned with the world, He hates the thought, and hence He disciplines us in order to avoid that. It is a question of coteries formed in our social relations with one another, in our houses and the like, but not only that; something far worse, they are brought into the presence of God in the assembly. They were eating in parties, pretending to be taking the Lord's supper, but it was not that at all. Whatever your profession, it is not the Lord's supper, it is your own, as the apostle says in 1 Corinthians 11:21. You are eating together, he says; you are several parties, and you are despising the assembly and those who have no houses, and those that are hungry. That is what is in mind.

In chapter 5, the apostle speaks of the judgment of what is inside, that is, by the assembly, or by those who walk in the light of it. The chapter furnishes us with instruction as to that, it is collective judgment. Of old, God has prescribed that every leper must be put outside the camp (Numbers 5:2). The assembly is His property, He claims it and takes possession of it as He has opportunity. It is an important thought to have in mind, even in the exercise of prophecy. A man is convicted and reports, "God is in you of a truth" (1 Corinthians 14:25). He is ever there if the conditions admit of His presence. Well, this chapter 5 deals with evil inside. The assembly will cease to function unless evil is dealt with. It may not have come to a head. We have the law governing the matter in the types in Leviticus 13 and 14, and it implies that proceedings against the offender are entered. I am using a legal form of expression, but the procedure

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is not by a legal, hard lawyer, but by a priest, and that means that every possible allowance would be made for the offender, but the offence has to be dealt with. Grace is abundant, but the offence cannot be passed over. In some cases the more you investigate, the more you find to be dealt with, far more than appeared on the surface. The proceedings against the offender may bring out other things, but then, as I said, grace is to be in abundance, and the priest will never be wanting in grace. It is what marks him. He is not truly a priest if he is wanting in grace. He is constituted for the ignorant, as one who can have compassion on them. So the apostle proceeds in this chapter 5 against the offender. One might say, Well, he is acting on a mere report; but no, it was common knowledge, they had acquired a reputation of this kind, and that there was such a man as he refers to actually there. There was no question about it. There is no need of legal entanglements, dear brethren, when we have to do with a matter like this. The priest is able to say the matter is there, the priest is a man who can name things in a spiritual way, and when a thing is named, as proved, deal with it.

Now I come down to the verse read, that is, about ourselves. "What have I to do to judge them also that are without?" It is not that one has not a judgment about man, man's history, the history of the nations, the upper world, the under world, but the point is the execution of judgment. No christian wants to sit on a jury if he can avoid it, or to sit on a judge's bench in the ordinary sense. It is not his business, but he is very ready, if he is a true priest, to look into matters in the assembly. That is what is so much needed, for the allowance of evil becomes iniquitous, it becomes leaven, it is an insult to God, as existing where God is. So that proceedings must go on, and the matter must be brought to light, and the Lord is with us in the investigation, and with us in the judgment. Paul says, Do not be concerned about those without. God is

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taking care of them. We shall judge the world presently, but in the meantime there is plenty to do inside. Do not fail to do it. "Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves".

In the next chapter we have this matter of business, which may not involve evil, as in chapter 5. In chapter 6, the point is that differences between brethren should not be taken to an ordinary court. The apostle says it is a matter to be settled by one in the assembly; it is a matter of ability in the assembly, and not that of the most spiritual, but the least. Think of the assembly in God's mind, the least as you might say, greater than the Chief Justice! His judgment would be surer. We all know how judgment miscarries in the courts of this world, but it is not to miscarry in the assembly. So he says, Let the least esteemed in the assembly judge of such matters between brother and brother. God has provided for us in this matter of judgment in regard of everything. So that the assembly is to hear these matters -- some little business quarrels, business misunderstandings, but they may become a means of corruption and leaven and division amongst us. Is there not a brother among us capable of taking up this matter? The least among you, he says, can do that. There are those who would exclude young brothers from what we call our care meetings. If they do not know, how are they ever to judge? Let them be there. God clothes them with thoughts different from natural thoughts, they are of the assembly. It is remarkable what comes out even with young people who are clothed, by their elders, with assembly thoughts.

In order to cover the ground, I go on now to chapter 10. It is a question of fellowship, not properly the Lord's supper. The Lord's supper is only brought into it because of the fellowship. The Lord's supper is properly chapter 11. The elements are brought into chapter 10 because of their bearing on the fellowship, and I have no doubt that the apostle has this in mind

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when he says, "Judge ye what I say". What is the apostle going to say? I have been speaking of what happens inside the assembly, what is carried in by social relations one with another, but I am speaking now of what transpires outside, leading into evil associations. The houses of the brethren are not evil associations normally. They may become spheres of special friendships which lead to leaven, but evil associations contemplated in chapter 10 go far wider than the houses of the saints surely. It is a question of an idol, of eating meats offered to idols and the like. I cannot go into that, I only touch the point, dear brethren. Let us judge what the apostle says, and look around and see how you get on in your business affairs, your acquaintances in business relations, and other such acquaintances. Where are they leading you? Are they leading you to compromise the fellowship? If they are, then look at this scripture. Not only read it, but understand it. Judge what the apostle says. Could you call a halt to those associations, these persons you go along with? Young persons here may go a long way with these evil companions, and then they sit down to the Lord's supper. Listen to the apostle's words: "Judge ye what I say". You are taking the brethren with you in your evil companionships. Look what fellowship implies.

Well, that is all on chapter 10. Then this matter of the ministry meetings. It has come up very much of late, thank God. God is graciously encouraging the brethren in these meetings for ministry in our localities. It is one of the most interesting movements that I know of in recent times, bringing in the thought of the whole assembly, not the assembly as in chapter 11, not coming together "in assembly", but the whole assembly gathered together in one place. It is a special matter, and God would show what is possible in such gatherings. The whole assembly in the place. Now what I read refers to judgment by persons who are listening to the prophets. I am using the word in the Scripture. The prophets are

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to speak by two or three, and let the others judge, whether the other prophets, or, by extension, the saints. I would prefer the latter. Anyway it must include the latter in our time. In the beginning the apostle had in mind that the other prophets would be the most likely to understand what their fellow prophets had said. Prophets ought to be charitable to each other. We are all, those of us who minister, rather apt to be critical of each other, which is not good. It does not promote unity in the faith. You understand, not the unity of the Spirit, but the unity of the faith, is implied in the ministry, and it is a great matter that there should be unity in the ministry; that the ministers should not be speaking at cross purposes, and if there be anything to correct, let the prophets speak, and let them do it in a charitable way and make it plain that it is a question of the truth and not of the minister, not an attack on the minister, but a question of the truth.

This leads me to remark on preferences for the prophets. We are apt to have our preferences, not because of their ability, not because of their spirituality, but because of their personality, because I have some personal link with them. It may be a local person, it may be that he belongs to our district or our locality, and he is first in our minds on account of that. God does not like that. It is a hindrance to Him and to the truth. A prophet is to understand his measure, and the brethren are to understand it, too, and to reckon accordingly. Let the standard and measure be Christ, not, as the apostle says, "measuring themselves by themselves" (2 Corinthians 10:12). The real standard is Christ; so that I have to measure the brother according to Christ, and the nearer he comes to Christ, the more valuable he is. Then he is not valued just because he is in our meeting, for the prophet is for the whole assembly. God has set in the assembly apostles and prophets. They are set in the assembly by God, not only in localities; so

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let us not clothe ourselves with any gift that is in our town. As merely possessing a gift he does not really add to us.

Now our verse says, "Let the others judge", that is, what he says; it is not judging the prophet, but it is a question of the truth. He is a prophet truly enough, he is called that here, but he may say something that is not just right, and that has to be judged; otherwise we may allow, or admit of evil, or error because of our predilections as to the speaker. We may pass over things that he says. Let us be lovers of the truth, loving the truth is greater than loving the brethren. I say that without hesitation. The apostasy is coming on because of lack of love of the truth. Whoever says it, take it to heart, and do not gloss over anything that anyone says because of who says it. Love the truth. That is the important thing about these meetings that are becoming more frequent. Let the others judge. Let us be judges because of the truth, true Bereans, who even investigated what the apostle Paul said. They were noble, it says, they were judges as to the truth.

The next thing in chapter 5 of the second letter I reserved for the last, dear brethren, because it is here in the second letter that the apostle, instead of asking them to judge evil, is asking them really to forgive the offender. It is characteristically the restoration of a leper. It is a re-establishing letter. In fact he begins by saying, "He that establishes us with you in Christ ... is God". It is an establishing letter, but establishing, not in a division, such as he described in the first letter, nor in the admission of evil, but in what is good. So it goes on to say, "and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts". He is establishing us on that line, as anointed, as sealed and as having the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. How He loves to do that. Stay there, dear brethren, that is what it means. He is establishing Paul with the Corinthians on those lines,

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and so in this chapter 5 he says, "whether we are beside ourselves, it is to God". If he thought of God he was beside himself. I have often thought of that verse. I am sure there is not one here who would assume that he has ever been able to say that truthfully. What a thought it is! To God, he says, "we are beside ourselves". God is so great in his mind, that as he allows the full thought of Him to come into his soul, he is beside himself. Would we not like to get some little experience like that.

One has thought lately of the abstract feature of our position, how God would press it upon us. He is entitled to look upon me and upon all of us entirely in relation to His own work. He is entitled to regard us abstractly, that is, in regard to the effect of His work in us. We shall be in eternity with Him, we shall be in the Father's house as entirely according to what is effected in us, made like Christ. It is the work of God. Why should God not have the right to look at me from that point of view now? Paul asserts this in the strongest terms, and, however little the work is effected in us, we must begin with that, to arrive at such an experience as expressed here, that to God I am beside myself. I can leave all that He can leave. It is a question of power in the soul, taking account of what God takes account of and as He takes account of us. The apostle then goes on to say, "Because we thus judge". It is a question of balance in spiritual things. It is not spasmodic, but a considered matter -- a judgment; that "if one died for all, then were all dead", or "had died". It is not that they have died because Christ has died, but Christ's death as having been for all, has shown that all were dead in a moral sense. Every sensation Godward had come to an end.

Think of the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. What was that for? What a blank! I am not ignoring the effect of God's work in the disciples, but as to the matter of life, they did not properly represent

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life. There was no one on earth who properly represented life until Jesus became Man, and when He died the thing had gone for three days and three nights. What was that to God? That life had gone; it was there infinitely in the Lord Jesus. He grew up before Him as a tender plant, as a root out of a dry ground. He drew nothing from His environment. It was all Himself. Five times we are told in the New Testament that heaven proclaimed, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". Well, that all stopped. You say, Jesus went to paradise. Jesus going to paradise is not the full thought of life. The full thought of life is Christ risen from the dead. It is Christ in a new condition. When He was in the flesh here it was in Him; He was it, but He alone. Heaven delighted in it as there, but for the moment He disappeared in death.

Let us take in the fact that He lay three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Why did He have to lie so long? The justice of God required it, the burial of Jesus was vicarious, as part of His death. Anyone who says differently is saying what is derogatory to Christ. Why should He lie for a moment in death save it was vicarious, to bring out the great fact that all were dead? But now He is raised again, and that is the judgment Paul arrives at; that "if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again". It is Christ risen. The Father moved, dear brethren, as the three days and three nights ended. It was a wonderful moment for the Father. Let us think of what it was for Him to be bereaved of that precious Object of His affections for three days and three nights. Why should it be? It was! but let us understand why it should be. The Father, we are told, raised Him by His glory. Not simply by His power. He will raise all of us by His power, but I cannot say exactly that He will raise

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us by His glory. It is a question of the unlimited love of the Father reaching forth to take Him up out of that position. He was "raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father" (Romans 6:4). If He has risen we are to live to Him. All outside of that is dead. Men may talk blatantly, their mouths speaking great things, but morally it is all dead. It is a state of death.

Now He is risen, and there are those who are living, and they live to Him who died for them and rose again. The apostle then goes on to new creation. Are we ready to follow this wonderful reasoning and this judgment which the apostle arrives at? -- "we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again". That is the great basic position as to life. Then, "henceforth know we no man after the flesh". Here we have to stop and think. Have we reached a point like that? "Yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more". He will never be known again as He was here in the flesh. There was one Man in that condition and no other before or after. It was a unique condition He took up. He laid it down never to take it up again. He has now taken up a new condition in which we can have part. We have no part in the condition He took when down here; we know Him thus no more. So that "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new" (verse 17). One challenges oneself as to the ability to sit down calmly and arrive at a judgment that will lead in this direction, so that I understand that I am associated with Christ where He is -- I have part where He is. God has made me fit for that. "If any one be in Christ there is a new creation".

May God bless the word!

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THE POSITIVE FEATURES OF CHRISTIANITY

Numbers 10:5,6,11 - 21; Philippians 3:12 - 14; Philippians 4:8,9

In view of this meeting these scriptures came to mind as setting out what is positive in christianity; firstly, as governing us in movement; and, secondly, as governing us generally; so that there may be in us in all circumstances what is representative of God. The idea of representation always enters into God's testimony, and if God is to be represented in any measure, this positive side of things must mark us, especially as moving or as professing to move spiritually.

If we are not moving, stagnation is sure to set in, especially in such a town as this, where people in the world come to make the best of their remaining days to die. That thought is apt to lay hold of God's people. We know how the thought of dying instead of living enters into our minds, as in the widow of Zarephath (1 Kings 17:12); and what saves us from the natural view is to die before one comes to such places -- as Lazarus is called "the dead man" (John 12:1), and yet the one whom Christ raised from among the dead; otherwise we shall only fit into the current outlook in such places. So that, as dead in the sense of "the dead man Lazarus", but raised on the principle of divine power -- for it is said that we are raised with Christ according to the working of God (Colossians 2:12) -- our outlook is life and glory. If there be dissolution, as there may be, it is glory; for what could be more glorious morally than the outgoing of Stephen? In his case it was from glory to glory: whether angelic, or ministerial, or as a martyr, or as yielding up his spirit to Christ, it was from glory to glory.

And he saw the greatest glory of all and speaks of it -- the glory of God above and Jesus standing at the right hand of God -- a glory not yet completed, for while Jesus is standing, there is something more to be

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added. He says to His Father, "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee" (John 17:1); that is going on now, and has been since the days of Stephen. It is all on the positive line; and as in such light, dear brethren, our outlook is not death, that is past; our outlook is glory, "We ... rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:2), a most stimulating statement, and one that is the normal outcome of the gospel being received; for it is what is received that is effective in us, not what we hear only; it is said to the Corinthians: "which also ye have received" (1 Corinthians 15:1).

Numbers fits into this position; and Numbers in the types is the book of movement, regulated by divine commandment. This commandment implies a preference, for God reserves this right. Hence Judah has the first place in this movement, not Reuben. The book is therefore stamped in this way: it is "in the wilderness", and as in the wilderness we are with the God with whom we have to do. Whatever character He may take, He is "our God", even though it be in the severest discipline, we say, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29); we rest in that knowledge. Where fire is essential, where fire prevents disaster, we welcome it, and especially in our God. So He reserves the right of selection; and those who love Him will never quarrel with that, for they say, Love will do its best!

This thought of love enters into the tenth chapter peculiarly, not only love in God, but love in the saints; for it would seem that God would have it so; as if, when movement should begin, He would say, It must not be simply the outcome of direct commandment, but also of love. Hence, although according to chapter 9 everything was ready for movement, chapter 10 brings in, not simply authority, but the rights of love, namely, the silver trumpets. It is as if God were to say: The people are all ready for the march, but they need this last touch! It is ever so; the touch of love, though it be the first one, it must also be the last. We are to

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walk in love, to serve in love -- love at the beginning, and at the end, and all the time. On God's side it is always so, and if He has His way with us, it is so on our side, too; as the Lord says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves" (John 13:35). It is a question of a community, as indeed marked christians at the very outset; the Spirit of God loves to portray it, as He does in Acts 2.

These silver trumpets are to be used not only for marching, but for other things, to stamp the whole position with the rights of love, as over against what marks man -- the rights of the sword, the rights of the navy, the army, and of the aircraft. The whole position in christianity is stamped with the rights of love: whenever we come together, whether for a meeting for care, for prayer, or for ministry, or as in assembly, these rights must always mark us. It makes the position correspond with heaven, so as to be a reflex of what is there; and, really, nothing less than this will do for God.

So the blast of the trumpets is to bring out the marching spirit, the moving forward. Although there is the principle of divine preference and ordering, we are to move together; but the silver trumpets denote the rights of love; and the next question is whether those who do march are corresponding. Hence, as seen in the first verses I read, the first blast is for the camp of Judah, though Judah is not mentioned: it is "the camps that lie eastward". God is saying to us, You are to move as in correspondence with love in Me according to all its provisions; and it is perfect love. Love on God's side and on Christ's is perfect love; it casts out fear. The blast of alarm need not cause alarm in regard of God: He is love; thus we are not to be afraid in conflict. Much is said of that throughout the Scriptures. Joshua was assured, as the man with the drawn sword said to him, "No; for as captain of the army of Jehovah am I now come" (Joshua 5:14) -- at the time

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when he might be fearful, and, no doubt, Joshua was. The Lord says, "... am I now come"; He comes in at the right time to dispel the fear; so we should be, according to the word to Joshua, "very courageous" (Joshua 1:7).

But here it is not war, though the "alarm" might suggest it; for, indeed, they were in the wilderness, and who could tell what emergencies might arise, Satan being ever active? It is a question of love and the camps on the east. God is saying, Be cheerful in your movements; do not be discouraged! The east suggests hope, stimulation; as "we ... rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Romans 5:2), we are looking toward the east. We are to "rejoice evermore"; and Paul says, "again I will say, Rejoice" (Philippians 4:5). It is one of the most important elements to keep with us and near us, never to be lost; the joy of the Spirit is for us in relation to the prospect of the coming of the Lord, and His entering into His rights; and then, too, the joy of the Lord: "The joy of the Lord", we are told, "is your strength" (Nehemiah 8:10).

So the first blast is to bring out this movement of hope. The second blast is to bring out the movement of those toward the south. The trumpet blast is referred to in connection with these two camps only; for the one is full of hope, and the other is restfulness in privilege, in favour. The south suggests favourableness. The chapter contemplates that all are to move, for the camps of Ephraim and Dan are mentioned later; but those on the east and on the south only are affected by the trumpet blasts. It is, as I said, as if God would have us move in hope. Paul is full of this; he speaks of "the God of hope" (Romans 15:13). He would instil hope into our souls, in view of the dark gloom around, dispelling fear from our hearts. Thus we must not fail to move as under divine direction; it is a question of the rights of God's love.

The silver trumpets refer, as we have said, to God's rights -- an additional thought coming in before

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actual movement begins. The position is enriched by these silver trumpets. It is a question of the testimony of the rights of love. The Lord's supper, dear brethren, as under the Lord, is enriching the saints as in assembly every week; it is intended to do so. These two camps, moving according to the divine trumpet blast, correspond. What you see is that as the camp of Judah moves, love is acting, so that there is a change from the order hitherto prescribed in the movement of the sanctuary; it is typically consideration for Christ, as I hope to show. It is as if Judah, and the three tribes in his camp, were to say, We must think for Christ; that must be the key-word of our movements; we are not to think for ourselves! So the Levites -- the Gershonites and the Merarites -- take down the tent. This action should have come later; it should have come after the second movement, according to the original prescription; although the Kohathites awaited the movement of the second camp. According to the original instruction (Numbers 2:17), the three families of the Levites, the Kohathites, the Gershonites, and the Merarites, were to move together; but the Kohathites came last here. At times order is stressed, and at times love for Christ is stressed; it is the latter here. It is a question of the saints making provision for Christ rather than for their comfort, it is love operating so that the Lord, in type, should not be as it were exposed to the wilderness. The tent is set up before the ark and the sanctuary come. The inner parts, the holy things that refer to Christ and the Spirit, must not be exposed. We must not be careless as to this. Love will not be careless; love will think for Christ all the time; and hence the tent must be set up as the Kohathites come with the ark and the other inner things of the sanctuary, so that they can all be housed at once. This would correspond to the words uttered by David in a later day: "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for

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Jehovah, habitations for the Mighty One of Jacob" (Psalm 132:4,5).

Now the charge of the Gershonites, as I understand the types, refers to principles, principles which are to guard the sacred things of God, so that human principles should be shut out -- "the doors ... shut for fear of the Jews" (John 20:19), the "Jews" referring to that religious element which will intrude into what relates to the holy things of God. The Gershonites had to do with the curtains, corresponding, as I said, to the maintenance of right principles. There must be the rigid exclusion of all human principles; for every admission of them is a door open to the devil.

The Merarites were to have in their charge things typical of the saints themselves -- persons. You cannot have a divine habitation without persons, nor can you have it without right principles; they go together. So we are concerned about principles in our movements -- not simply talking together about movement, but marked by real spiritual movement. You cannot move rightly without principles, and, of course, spiritual movement involves persons, and these in principle include all the saints. Any christian who says he can get on by himself is out of accord with the book of Numbers. The instructions show in the plainest way that all the people were taken account of and placed under obligation to move in relation to the tent of the testimony.

You will observe that it says of Merari, in chapter 4, that the things they were to handle were to be named. Typically, the allusion would be to persons; and, no doubt, we have the antitype in Acts 1 in the one hundred and twenty names, every one distinguishable, so that in meeting them I know how to speak to any particular person. Maybe it is a very sensitive brother or sister; I must be careful about that, so as not to irritate, knowing the kind of person he or she is. I am not saying that the tendency to irritation affords any renown, but if it

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exist in one it is important to keep this in mind in our relations with him. I believe, therefore, dear brethren, that it is important to have a right estimate or judgment of each person whom one knows. The judgment, of course, is to be in love, not in rivalry; but to know his value in relation to the tabernacle; whether he is under the influence of the Merarite family, and therefore ready to be set up in his place. As a board in the structure he is ready to receive and preserve the testimony, to keep it intact; so that when the Kohathites come, they can set the ark where it should be; that is, it is to be set in its place and held in love: "Christ in you the hope of glory" (Colossians 1:27).

I must go on to the verses in Philippians. We need the so-called "New Translation" to help us. It would not be out of place to say that this "New Translation", so called, is a provision of God, enabling us, in dealing with what the Scriptures present, to stand on our feet with assurance, so that renderings of the original may not give way under our feet, that thus we have the mind of God in the text. The Spirit of God is ready to enable us to make use of it. The apostle in Philippians 3 is speaking of himself and his movement, in the light of the land of Canaan, the land of promise, in order to reach that. The movements of the tabernacle in the wilderness, and of the Israelites' camps, were not merely to reach the land of promise; that was in view, of course; but there was testimony from God's point of view in every stage of the journey. That is not what the apostle had in mind here. He is leading the way for us in heavenly exercises, with a heavenly objective, but already in mind laying hold of it. He had to say he had not yet obtained the prize, but he steadily pursued, as one in a race, with the goal in view. He must have had great enjoyment, though great exercise also, in this matter, for the Holy Spirit would be with him in his exercises and in his prayers. So the reading is, in the New Translation: "Not that I have already

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obtained the prize, or am already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may get possession of it" -- that is, the prize -- "seeing that also I have been taken possession of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not count to have got possession myself; but one thing -- forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue, looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus". This is individual movement: it is a description of one, at least, in the movement. His face is toward heaven. There is a goal; there is a finish. We shall not be always pursuing, dear brethren. There is a comforting word of the Lord: "he shall go no more out" (Revelation 3:12). In the meanwhile, it is for us to go out, and to come in; for going out and coming in is a great principle. Some go out, and never come back; but one going out actuated by love, will come back like Noah's dove. But this goal is to be reached, and there will be no more going out; it is finality, finality in the best that love can do, according to the counsels of divine love. We were thought of before the world was; we were in the counsels of divine love; and here is one man who had a conception of the goal, and of the prize, at the end of the race. The goal is one thing, and the prize another; the two ideas run together. The goal is finality; the prize is something permanently ours; so he is said to be "looking towards the goal, for the prize of the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus". This will never be lost. We have reached the finish, but the prize is the eternal enjoyment -- "the calling on high of God in Christ Jesus".

Then, in order to give the truth a practical bearing for every one of us in regard of our position here below, chapter 4 furnishes us with another set of things -- not a goal, not a prize, but, as generally in the creation of God, a great balancing principle. One has been looking over the nations, and one has ventured to regard some of them as balancing nations, taken up of

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God to keep balance until the testimony gets through. So we need to be balanced. Evil arises, and one has painfully to admit that in the gatherings there are current issues unsolved; evil raising up its head, and, in some instances, inability to meet it; participation in worldly associations, radios, and mixed marriages. These are decoys of the devil to distract and defile the brethren; and God would call upon us to gird up our loins, and face these things with others like them; and what is needed, among other things, is positive balance; positive things that will maintain us in balance. "For the rest, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are noble" -- that word may mean what is respected, venerable, as the note says -- "whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are amiable" -- or "lovable", not simply "lovely"; of course, what is lovely is lovable; but the New Translation gives it "amiable" -- "whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue and if any praise, think on these things". They furnish balance.

How important, dear brethren, to go to the care meeting, as we call it, charged in one's mind with the good things described here! We shall need the balance they afford, the steadiness that they give. Although we may be dealing with bad things, there are good things; and there are more good things among the brethren than bad things; the bad things are deplorable, but it is in the possession and power of the good that we can meet them. Hence the importance of making the most of the good; that is what helps most; that is our ammunition, as it is said, "Overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21); not by argument and controversy, although spiritual reasoning may be necessary at times; but the thing here is the possession of good; all that comes of love is good; and the apostle is pleased by the Spirit to name these good things for us.

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So we are furnished, on the one hand, with heavenly exercise and prospect, the goal surely before us, and the prize consequent on reaching it; and then the everyday position down here being poised, we have power, not only in the Spirit -- these things lie in the Spirit -- but these positive things taken item by item, furnish strength to the soul. So, as I say, there are bad things, but there are good which outnumber the bad; hence we can go on in the assurance that the good in us in the power of the Spirit will overwhelm the bad, so that we may move on in a balanced way, and in the sense of the love set forth in the silver trumpets, that regulates everything for us, so that God is with us, and in us of a truth.

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THRESHING-FLOORS

Matthew 3:11,12; 2 Samuel 6:6,7; 1 Chronicles 21:18 - 22; Genesis 50:10 - 13

The brethren will, I judge, see that these scriptures speak of threshing-floors, and I propose to take them in the order in which they have been read with the hope that the Lord, by the Spirit, will give support in speaking so that there may be help; first of all that our consciences may be brought into action in regard of the judicial services of Christ. We know from His own words that all judgment is committed to Him, so that this passage in Matthew 3 is included in His judicial services and work; indeed Matthew of all the evangelists stresses this feature of Christ's administration, and He is the One who has Himself endured, to the utmost extent, divine judicial severity. One can understand -- no doubt we all can -- that He is qualified, not only personally, but morally, to occupy the judicial office. It is one of the chief offices and it is not foreign to the administration which the Father has committed into the hands of the Son; for although judgment is said to be God's strange work, yet He is known by that which He executes (Psalm 9:16) -- it is one of the means by which He is known -- and this will extend to eternity, for there will be abiding witness to divine wrath (Revelation 19:3), that God should be known in it.

So the Father has given all judgment into Christ's hand, as the Lord explains, "the Father judgeth no man" (John 5:22) He has committed all judgment to the Son, "because he is Son of man" (verse 27); there is in this another touch which is intended to appeal to us as men, it is, speaking reverently, that He is one of us; the Son of man is necessarily linked with men. He was, of course, holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners, but He was here as Man, taking His place in the likeness

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of men. So that if He executes judgment it is not for want of sympathy with the race, but because of the requirements of God whom He represents; for, as in the economy, He is representative -- He is over all. His authority is received as delegated, and has to be viewed as on God's behalf even in the smallest judicial details. It is a glorious administration; every administration of Christ is glorious. One cannot think of Him undertaking anything that is not marked by glory, either official, personal or moral. Even Stephen, about to utter indictment against Israel, is marked by judicial glory reflected from Christ; and so indeed ought every one of us to be, for the judicial department, so to speak, includes us all. Even the least esteemed in the assembly is supposed to have authority to officiate in this; and every moment in the history of the assembly on earth calls for this service. Each must begin with himself, for if I do not execute the office in regard of myself I shall not (nor have I any right to) do it in regard of others; but if I do judge evil in myself, I am morally entitled to judge it in others, and to acquaint them with my judgment too. It is very salutary; tending to produce and maintain wholesome conditions among the saints.

In this passage in Matthew 3 John the baptist says, "He that comes after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not fit to bear; he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire; whose winnowing fan is in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing-floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable". That is judicial. Verse 11 is baptism by the Spirit, for that is the baptism wherewith Christ baptises us. It is a very blessed service, but it is with the Holy Spirit and with fire. This most blessed service of Christ, which marks our dispensation, is accompanied by the judicial feature; fire meaning that. The Holy Spirit is here on divine terms, not on human terms. We may ask

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for Him, it is open to us to do so, but He comes in on His own terms. The Holy Spirit is a gift of love, it is a divine transaction and must, therefore, be according to divine terms. So that the fire secures the rights of God in those who have the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures go so far as to say, "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29). So concerned is He as to the Spirit and our having the Spirit, that the Spirit must be, as it were, guarded and vindicated; and the accompaniment of the fire is the sure guarantee. God can, and does, deal with us as having the Spirit; that makes our position most serious. Great indeed and glorious is the gift of the Spirit, but how solemn!

So that the fire accompanies the baptism of the Spirit, and then what is worthless in relation to us is dealt with; verse 12 says, "Whose ... fan is in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing-floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable". The chaff I apprehend here is more than the flesh in a person who has the Spirit; it includes this, for there is no place in God's realm for that at all. The chaff is general and includes not only what is in persons, but the persons themselves as unbelievers. Christ will do this; a most solemn matter, whether it be extraneous conditions in believers, or whether it is persons taking the place of believers who are not such at all, but are worthless. The Lord must have His threshing-floor; it is the place of separation of the wheat from the chaff.

Threshing is a violent operation. In the process we may feel scarcely able to endure it, and think it cannot be the product of love, but it is! The pure grain must be secured, and it is a very important and great day in the believer's history, when he arrives definitely at the understanding of what this process results in. He judges himself, but without the divine help in the threshing-floor, the use of the instruments in right hands, we shall not be equal to the task of disallowing, and

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severing ourselves from, all that is only fit for the fire. The Lord helps us against the flesh; but then He clears His threshing-floor of all that is useless. It is not exactly that it is evil, although useless things are that in a way, but the point is that the threshing-floor must be cleansed so that, whether it be elements in ourselves, or whether it be persons, there is this unquenchable fire of purification; for the Lord will have His threshing-floor clean.

There is much in oneself and in the gatherings too -- elements allowed to lapse, or go on without any effort to deal with them. The Lord is patient in the execution of His service, but He looks for us to do things. He has given the assembly power of administration and has pleasure in the assembly fully exercising its prerogative. "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30) was on account of their discreditable behaviour in the assembly. That is in principle fire, and certainly is clearly the thought of the threshing-floor. Why should we hinder the service of the Lord and His activities by the allowance of things that manifestly deserve judgment! So "whose ... fan is in his hand, and he shall thoroughly purge his threshing-floor, and shall gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable". He will do it. We, as knowing the Lord, wish to have conditions so that He can come in amongst us.

According to Revelation He walks among the golden candlesticks and observes everything; nothing escapes His eye. "These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass" (Revelation 2:18). So that we ought not to be content with right principles only, but with the walk that must accompany them, or the Lord will have to say, "I have against thee" (chapter 2:20).

The second scripture links on with what I am saying, that is, the possibility of having professedly the testimony in one's house and not profiting by it. I refer to the house of Abinadab which is on the hill, a well-known

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section of Scripture. The ark was in his house -- an improvised place -- for many days. It is not said that he was a Levite, or his sons, still the ark is placed there and hence a great advantage is in the house; but has the principle of separation gone on there? Has there been the separation of the good from the evil; that ceasing to do evil and learning to do well? Has this been going on in this man's house? What house is like it? Not another house in the world! The ark had been in it for many years, much more than twenty; any way a very long time; and one knows of houses which have been professedly in the testimony for as many years. Some indeed we can glory in; but others give very little evidence of positive movement in relation to the ark, in relation to the necessities of it, the requirements of it, what God has instituted as principles to govern it. So that we come to Nachon's threshing-floor. The ark has been brought from this favoured house of Abinadab, which is on the hill, and his two sons are the active ones, driving the cart, one going ahead of it; the precious ark of God that was to be borne on the shoulders of the Levites, the priests of God, is put on a new cart. It is a sorrowful spectacle -- coming out of the house of one professedly receiving and caring for the ark for so many years; and this is a searching and solemn matter for us.

Who knows what treatment was accorded to the ark while in this house of Abinadab? Why did not God forbid the use of the cart before the ark was placed on it? He did not! He waited until it came to Nachon's threshing-floor. The obvious suggestion is the separation of the precious from the vile. The threshing implements are, as it were, in action; there is the burning up of the chaff, the burning up of all that has no place whatever in relation to the ark of God. Hence it was a sorrowful thing that happened, for when the oxen stumbled, Uzzah put his hand on the ark of God to steady it and, as I read in verse 7, "the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him

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there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God". It was at the threshing-floor. How very solemn! It is pathetic. These men were brought up with the ark, they could look at it every morning, they could look at it every evening. They ought to have seen that in its surroundings there must be the separation of the precious from the vile, that there should not be the allowance of worldliness in that house.

This, evidently, they had failed to do, and now God is taking the matter up where they are to be reminded of it: at the threshing-floor of Nachon. We are to be reminded of it now, this very night, speaker and hearers; our continuance in the testimony depends upon it. We have our Bibles on our tables and at our morning readings! Thank God for every Bible in the house, and every reading and every prayer, but then what about the other requisites in a christian household? What about the allowance of foreign elements? What about the allowance of Philistine principles such as this new cart! These products evidently affected the house of Abinadab, and Abinadab suffered in his sons. They should have strictly maintained as to the ark the divine instructions furnished in the book of Numbers, but they did not, and hence suffered this judgment. The passage says, "There he died by the ark of God". Doubtless Uzzah had often been by it, but how had he regarded it? In many christian houses the things of Christ may be treated with disrespect -- young people doing it. Outwardly there was nothing great about the ark, you know what it looked like: it was literally a chest, small enough to be placed almost anywhere in the house, and it was in that house for a number of years, but who could tell what treatment they accorded it? It may however be gathered by the treatment of the ark as it issued forth from the house. Here are two men of the house, one going ahead of it, no doubt in a religious way, and the other driving the cart, and one of them dies by the ark of God: by it! How often had he been

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by it? Had he humbled himself then in the presence of God, had he read the third and fourth chapters of the book of Numbers, being governed by them, what a different man he would have been! God would speak to parents now and their households as to all this.

Then, in 1 Chronicles 21, we have the threshing-floor linked on with what I have been saying, and David himself is active; David again. What lessons we have to learn from David, and thank God we are learning. He, Peter, Paul, and Moses had in a way to suffer for us; their histories, including their failures, are given for our learning, and this is one of the most instructive chapters in that way. It tells us of error in David, and, this being judged, of one of the brightest parts of his life as in the service of God. It is a chapter that tells us how readily and quickly God will act for us in such circumstances as are mentioned. If we have strayed in any way, and if there is self-judgment with us, He is ready to act for us and things will open up quickly, as in Peter's case. One often thinks of Peter's recovery and how quickly the Lord appeared to him. Restorative grace is one of the elements of the assembly -- "The Lord is indeed risen and has appeared to Simon" (Luke 24:34). How quickly recovery may take place! Why should anyone who needs it hinder it? There may be someone here who needs it.

Well, I am not speaking of the failure of David seen in this chapter, but of his recovery, and of his thoughts for God and the house of God, and of how the idea of a threshing-floor enters into the instruction. Why should it be there? David would understand something of it, he was right in the midst of it. Would he not remember what had happened a little previously? He would indeed. It is well to have, memories in this respect. The threshing-floor of Nachon would be in his mind in the night seasons, of which he speaks elsewhere -- all spiritual people understand the night-seasons, when one is withdrawn from everything, and by oneself

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with the Lord. "My reins also instruct me in the night seasons" (Psalm 16:7). Our reins instruct us, the Spirit acts upon us in this sense. As delivered through the truth of Romans 7, the Spirit is free in us and we may have holy seasons of instruction. David had these experiences.

Ornan is active in this threshing-floor and his four sons with him. There can be no doubt that a feature of this picture is Ornan and his four sons. These are shy, but they are not like Abinadab's sons, they are with their father and they are doing what is good and right: spiritually, they are separating the precious from the vile. It is good to see a father -- a brother -- and his four sons with him. However feeble they may be, as Gideon's son was, yet they are with their father, and it is in the threshing-floor; it is in the place, spiritually, of separating the precious from the vile. How can we ever reach the house of God unless this principle is active? We cannot. The house of God is composed of persons: "whose house are we", Scripture says (Hebrews 3:6); there is also the abstract thought of the house of God, and that is how it is first introduced in Scripture, but in the sense that God is there. The first one who uses the term is Jacob, and he uses it in that sense. He says, "How dreadful is this place"; for it is the place in which good is valued and evil refused unsparingly. The pure wheat must be set free from the husk, the useless thing that is to be burned with unquenchable fire; therefore, Jacob also says, "This is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven". He rose early in the morning and set up the stone, which had been his pillow, for a pillar, pouring oil upon it, calling the place Bethel, and saying, "This stone which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house" (Genesis 28:17,22).

The house here has the same character. There is no building yet, but David, like Jacob, calls it the house of God. The outstanding men affording instruction as to the house in the Old Testament are Jacob and

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David. Both name the house in an abstract sense. David's exercise was, as we know, "I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, until I find out a place for the Lord, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob" (Psalm 132:4,5). He kept awake thinking of the house of God, and then he says (in his night seasons, as we may say), "Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy" (verse 9). We cannot have the house of God and the service of God otherwise. The house, as I said, is not yet here concretely, it is a mere threshing-floor; but David has purchased that, he is in possession of it and names it. He says in the next chapter, "This is the house of the Lord God, and this is the altar of the burnt-offering for Israel" (1 Chronicles 22:1). Like Jacob's remarks, as I said, but much better; it was a great improvement because Jacob said, "How dreadful is this place!" David did not say that; no, he had come through the threshing-floor himself, he had been in the process; he had not been with God at Nachon's, but he has now changed his mind: thank God! He was able to do it because he had been through the mill of God's discipline. What exercises he must have had, and now, we may say, he understands it. So he does not say, This is a dreadful place, nor does he again ask that question, "How shall the ark of the Lord come to me?" (2 Samuel 6:9). He says instead, "This is the house of the Lord God". He has viewed it in relation to the threshing-floor -- the precious in him has been separated from the vile. So at the present time, whether it be elements in ourselves or whether it be persons, it is the same thought. If it be persons, we have to separate ourselves from them; for everyone that separates himself from such vessels of dishonour "shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use" (2 Timothy 2:21). So David's word here is, "This is the house of the Lord God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel". He has reached it, he is on sure ground; and one would yearningly

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seek that everyone here should get his feet on this ground.

This chapter, 1 Chronicles 21, shows the way to recovery and that recovery must cost something. So in reply to Ornan's offer to give him the threshing-floor, David says, "Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price" -- he is not going to pay less than the price; and, I can tell you, really, in a practical way, you get what you pay for. I am not now speaking of what God is to you, but of our side, that on these lines the more you pay, the more you sacrifice, the more you get. David says, I will pay the full money -- that is the word. Ornan would give all, but no one who understands God, or the house of God, will take things on this line without price. The gospel is, of course, on the principle of without money and without price, but a great price has been paid; but on the line of appropriating things, there is a price; those who understand it say, I would not have it without cost. The price means surrendering; the giving up of things; sacrificing; and that is what marks the latter part of this chapter 21. The consequent result is acceptable by God, and that enters into what David says -- "This is the house of the Lord God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel". He is on sure ground.

As we read down chapter 22 our hearts are filled with the very wonderful wealth that is now there; not only what I must bring, but what is there -- one hundred thousand talents of gold, and so on. Think of that wealth! This is the consequence of getting our feet planted, through this process, on the foundation of the house of God. David says, as it were, Everything must be secured. This is wonderful, David is consolidating the position, and he will never give it up. Thus he immediately introduces the thought of nails, a remarkable feature. We read of "A nail in a sure place" (Isaiah 22:23); that nail is Christ and we are in the house of God in that security. Can we afford to be outside

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it? Here it is said, "David prepared iron in abundance for the nails for the doors of the gates, and for the joists" (1 Chronicles 22:3). The allusion is to the truth and power of Christ's resurrection, through which all is immutably secured.

In the last scripture I read, the threshing-floor of Atad comes in, in relation to Jacob; he is a dead man now. It is remarkable how much is made of death in Genesis, and it is by those who have faith. The world, characteristically, covers death up and modifies the idea as much as possible, but death is death, and faith understands it better than any; the worldling does not understand it at all. The first burying-place is bought by the father of all believers and paid for in "full money". You will recall that David uses the same expression as to the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite. In Genesis 50 Moses is typically bringing in what Christ thinks of His beloved people; changing the whole character of death, for it is falling asleep through Jesus; it is through His power really; He does it. Can anything be more touching? If we face it (and, of course, we have to face it, for we are still mortal), can anything be more touching than the Lord Jesus putting the saints to sleep? Hence Abraham is concerned as to the position of those of his who had fallen asleep. It was just a field and a cave in it he bought, and he paid not only full money, but current money with the merchant; no spurious money, or discounted currency, but current money with the merchant; the face value as it were, is on it -- that is the principle. There are those who depreciate the value of things, but, in the divine realm, money is to be maintained at its full parity; and that is Abraham's point -- current money with the merchant. In the presence of witnesses, the cave, the field, and the trees were all secured undeniably by current money with the merchant. But what does all this mean? Why should the Spirit of God give us so much as to "a possession of a sepulchre"? It is to bring Christ in in regard to

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those who have fallen asleep, for in truth we are all buried on this principle, our bodies are just as safe as are our spirits which are with Christ. Our spirits are safe there, and our bodies are secured too without question, on the principle of purchase.

How precious all this is! As we advance in years, it is just as well to face things. Death is not a terror at all; it is a temporary matter, it is a provisional state of things from this point of view. Our spirits are with the Lord, and faith says it is "far better"; and our bodies are taken care of: "Come, see the place where the Lord lay" (Matthew 28:6). Devout men carried Stephen to his burial -- the place is known. The whole principle is in the cave purchased figuratively by Christ for the burial of His saints -- they are all there; they are distinct from the unsaved; and, as one may say, He will go to the mouth of that cave and call forth all those buried in it.

Now what I had in mind was to show that this threshing-floor also has its voice. Has there been the separation of the precious from the vile, of the real corn, of the grain of wheat from the shell? If not then the threshing-floor has not had its voice. In such a case burial is not so happy; the departure to be with Christ is not so glorious or victorious as it should be. The death of a saint should be a witness to the power of christianity. This threshing-floor of Atad, which is said to be beyond the Jordan, from Moses' standpoint, meaning that it was in Canaan, I apprehend is a testimony to the life of Jacob. Yet see how much is said of burial in Genesis. In this cave Abraham and Sarah were buried, Isaac and Rebekah were buried and there Jacob buried Leah; and he gets Joseph to swear that he (Jacob) would be buried there. What does all this mean, dear brethren? It is the action of faith; it is faith active in one who is dying. There is the threshing-floor, and he has been through it; the discipline of God has done its work in him. He is entirely clear in his last moments of all the rubbish and chaff; he dies

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gloriously; he is buried gloriously, and he will be raised gloriously. So for us, whether it be the falling asleep, the departure to be with Christ, or being raised or changed at His coming, the Lord is looking for victory in every one of us. Whether He changes our bodies as still alive, or raises us from the dead, He is looking for victory. As we fall asleep, if the whole moral process has been gone through, there is nothing left but the pure wheat for Christ. Stephen is really in the power of it; he hands over his spirit to Christ, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" (Acts 7:59). There is no cloud on his conscience, or his mind; he asks the Lord to receive his spirit. How pleased was the Lord to do that! And Stephen has been with Him ever since; his body, too, is safe; and he will appear presently when the Lord Jesus stands at the graves' mouths, and calls forth those who have done good unto the resurrection of life.

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THE PART THE BRIDE HAS IN THE SERVICE OF GOD

Exodus 18:1 - 6; 1 Samuel 25:2,3,39 - 42; 1 Kings 7:8

J.T. What is in mind is to dwell on these scriptures as typically indicating how the assembly as the bride of Christ has part in the service of God. There are several other types of the assembly in these early chapters of the Old Testament, but these are selected because they show the relation of the assembly to Christ as charged with the service of God. This could not be said of Adam, or even of Isaac; Moses, David and Solomon have peculiar relation to the service of God, and the assembly is seen typically as the bride or wife of each of these men. The assembly is seen otherwise in these sections also, for the tabernacle itself is a type of the assembly, and so is the temple, but it is the marital relation, and how far it enters into actual assembly service, that is in view now.

J.H.T. Would you say what specific phase of the service these three men, Moses, David and Solomon represent?

J.T. Well, the service of God is formally introduced to Moses by Jehovah even before the exodus, the deliverance out of Egypt. Jehovah said that His people, Israel, should serve Him at Horeb, so that it was a leading thought as to the divine needs in the exodus. Following on that the word to Pharaoh was that he should let Jehovah's son (Israel) go, that he might serve Him, and the idea of authority enters into the position of Moses as he was the mediator of the covenant, typical of Christ as Mediator of the new covenant. What is stressed is subjection to the authority of God in him. The assembly is seen not as in any particular personal attractiveness, in fact Zipporah scarcely suggests that; it is the bare thought of the wife; her name is only

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mentioned once, and the word "wife" three times, I think, in the passage; whereas her father, or Moses' father-in-law, is mentioned a great many times throughout the chapter.

F.W. Do you suggest that Moses learned the features of subjection from Jethro, who is very prominent in this chapter?

J.T. Well, the word father-in-law is the prominent word as to Jethro; there is something in what you say, and we should therefore consider the history of Moses up to this point. I think he had learned subjection before he met Jethro, at least in the sense that he sat by a well; he had been a man reliant on his own ability, but now he typically recognises that the well is a source outside of himself, but which, in type, would be inside of himself, that is the Spirit. I think your suggestion is good, because his continuance with Jethro denoted that he was already subject, and was content to dwell with the man, as it says. The experience of forty years in such circumstances, however, must have greatly augmented the idea of subjection in his soul, for he dwelt with the father-in-law, but it was "in law", and such authority has peculiar force, which is sometimes irksome.

F.W. More so than that of your own father, I suppose.

J.T. I think so, but the relations between them evidently were good throughout, none of the bickerings and irritabilities that usually come up between sons-in-law and fathers-in-law, and daughters-in-law and mothers-in-law seem to be present here; the relations seem good throughout; and although Jethro was a Midianite and would have but little in common with Moses, an Israelite, yet Moses' influence for good seems to have had weight with Jethro; that is, he influenced him Godward, according to what we find recorded in this chapter. There was evident formation in him, for it is said "Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses'

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father-in-law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and to Israel his people; that Jehovah had brought Israel out of Egypt". He heard that, and then we are told later, "And Moses told his father-in-law all that the Lord had done unto Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel's sake" (verse 8). Then we are told, "And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law in the presence of God" (verse 12). So it is clear that there was some formation with Jethro, and in fact he is a priest himself here as offering sacrifices in the presence of God and eating with Moses and Aaron and the elders in the presence of God; another thing is that verse 7 says, "And Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other after their welfare; and went into the tent". It does not say his wife and children, but his father-in-law, and he did obeisance and kissed him. The facts would bring out that whilst Moses must have learned subjection, as it is said of Christ that He learned obedience by the things He suffered, Moses learned also in his experience with such a man over him, a foreign element to begin with; but evidently Moses prevailed, and his influence prevailed. God was working, and there was evident formation in the father-in-law and a link of affection between him and Moses; the wife is still there, but that is all; there is nothing said about her at all beyond that she is there, as if at this stage of the progress of the truth of the service of God it is just the thought of the assembly as in Romans.

W.L. Why is subjection prominent in Moses at this stage of his history?

J.T. I suppose to bring out the type, as it should be, because subjection is really learned in Christ Himself. We learn it in Christ, not that He ever needed to be subjected, but the idea of subjection is proper to Christ, and will be eternally, and moreover it is proper

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to the assembly as a principle, for the assembly is subjected to the Christ; it is the position she is set in. It qualifies Moses for the insistence on God's behalf of subjection in the subsequent instructions.

E.L.M. I would like to ask, Is there anything in the way of ministry suggested in Jethro's movements that should have a place amongst us in view of the service? Would you look for anything in the way of a spiritual touch that would bring this character of the assembly before us in view of the service?

J.T. Moses was himself in subjection, as we have been saying, and Christ, as become Man, is in subjection. The fact that it is said, "He learned obedience" (Hebrews 5:8), is not simply that He did not know it morally, or that there was any insubjection in Him -- God forbid that there should be such a thought -- He learned it as something that never came into His status before. He had taken up a position He had never had before, so that He learned it experimentally in that way, that is all, and it is in Him that we learn subjection. The prophets, and the Psalms and the New Testament show that the Lord was pre-eminent in it, He was there under His Father, and whatever His Father did, He did, and He did only what His Father showed Him. I think that comes into the service of God as we are together, everyone of us, each of us is subject according to the teaching of Romans. Chapter 6 brings out how we are to be subject, and so we sit down together in assembly as subject, and as under the Lord. No one can say, Lord Jesus except by the Spirit; the condition of the saint is such that the Spirit is free to be in power in him in saying, Lord Jesus. There is nothing so abhorrent to God either in individual christians, or collectively, as insubjection, for nothing can be done, the Spirit is hampered and hindered save as there is subjection.

J.H.T. The disciples in the hour of the sorrow of Jesus would never forget the supreme lesson of obedience as the Lord said, "Father ... not my will, but thine be

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done" (Luke 22:42). Would that help them in their service later?

J.T. You may be sure they had heard such words before, because we have instances of the Lord speaking to His Father, but there was much of it of course that is not recorded, so that in 1 Corinthians 11, in view of the assembly being introduced to celebrate the Lord's supper, we have the great thought of subjection, that is the head of the woman is the man, and the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God, that is subjection, and that implies authority from God to Christ, and from Christ to the man, down to the woman.

E.G. The Lord Jesus was in subjection to His parents at the early age of twelve.

J.T. Quite so.

A.H.G. Would the idea of the wife be one who is brought in a peculiar way to appreciate the features of her husband, and in that way to be formed by them?

J.T. Well, that comes into the subject, I am sure; there is nothing of it so far as I know, in Zipporah. I mean that side is not stressed in her at all. Indeed what is said of her earlier would rather indicate the opposite, but still she is the wife, and she is so introduced here, just as his wife. But what we shall see later in Abigail is formation; she represents the assembly on that side. Pharaoh's daughter, of course, is Pharaoh's daughter, that is all; we do not know what her name was, nor her character, but there is enough said to indicate that she is a type, just a type or suggestion of Solomon's wife as in relation to the great matter on hand.

Ques. In connection with Zipporah in verse 21 of chapter 2 it just says Jethro gave Moses Zipporah his daughter, without saying as wife. Would it appear to be the thought of our acceptance of what the Lord gives us here?

J.T. I think that is what the chapter means. What Moses had learned already shines at the outset, and

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then he came into circumstances that would help him on these lines so that he is subject, and even in regard to his helping the seven daughters to water their flocks. They did not seem to have any interest, their father says, 'Where is the man? Why did you not bring him?'. There is nothing to indicate anything particular in Zipporah; it is to bring out what Jethro was, and the formation seems to be in him here, so that if we apply it to the brethren sitting together in assembly it would mean that our link with Christ is assembly-wise, but that the formation must be in us individually, not in an abstract thought which Zipporah represents here, but in ourselves. It is the "in law" matter, the link between Moses and Jethro, and it is successful. The work is going on, he is a different man from what he was. The wife is there, as representing the truth, an element of truth, but he is the active one.

-.W. Is that why here it says "her two sons" and the names are in regard to his experience?

J.T. I think that is good, there is nothing at all said about her; it would indicate I think that we are just looked at as christians, as believers, in this early stage as set together, but the idea of the church is there; yet the formation is in Jethro and the sons are simply to reflect something in Christ's heart, strangership and the power of God.

W.L. Does it suggest all the potentialities that the Lord saw in the assembly when He took up this place of subjection but that are not yet manifest as suggested in the term 'wife'?

J.T. I think that is a good suggestion, because He saw that; He saw something in the disciples, they were very poor we know in their response to Him, but He would look at them as you say according to what they were potentially. The parable in Matthew 13 would show that He found something; the man is seen as finding a treasure; He hides it in the field and buys the field so as to have a right to it, which would mean

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He got the assembly out of it. Then the next parable is that He was looking for goodly pearls, as if the Lord was looking for the best He could get, not simply something found, but looking for the very best obtainable, goodly pearls, and He found one of great price, which would I suppose be a further thought, the power the Lord had of abstraction, in looking at things abstractly to see what He would ultimately have in the disciples.

G.E.E. Would the references to "in the Lord" in the commendations in Romans 16 involve a measure of spiritual formation on the line that you are speaking of?

J.T. I am sure that is right. The whole list of salutations would bear that out; Paul speaks of some, "who were also in Christ before me" (verse 7), that would mean that they had the advantage of certain formation, because in the history that preceded Paul saw that those men had the benefit of it, an advantage that Paul had not had.

J.H.T. But if the type of Zipporah is filled out in Romans and Corinthians what epistle should we go to for formation?

J.T. I think there is formation in Romans; there is formation in Jethro. I was thinking there is formation going on; if you were to ask Jethro, of course he would not know, but the facts related indicate what there was, he is offering sacrifices and rejoicing in the deliverance. That is an initial state of things, but still it is remarkable that he is so joyful about the deliverance of Israel, and that he knows God now, and he offers sacrifices. Does not Romans contemplate all that, for instance that we present our body a living sacrifice? In fact, we yield ourselves to God. It would seem to me that Jethro represents that side here, it is initial, but he is coming into the knowledge of God and he is subject, and moreover he is able to give Moses very good advice. I do not think you get proper formation here or in

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Romans either, but you get it in individuals; the apostle is not able to say to the Romans, "Ye are body of Christ" he just says, "We, being many, are one body in Christ" (chapter 12:5). The status is clear, as he says to the Corinthians, Ye are "babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1); the position is clear, but there is very little formation.

-.D. Is that the thought in the sixth verse, "I ... am come to thee, and thy wife and her two sons with her"? Would that indicate that there is something in view of development?

J.T. I think there is a great vista opening up now with these elements: the recognition of the strangership of Christ in the son Gershom, and the power of God in the other son Eliezer, and then the wife, for after all the marriage relation as entered into is all potential. What the persons are has to be worked out in this new relation; it is not what I have been, it is what I am in the new relation, and that is what comes into mind here, the new relation is just touched on in Romans. It says we should be to another, even to Him who is raised from among the dead; that is the marital relation, and it is just touched on.

J.H.T. You said at Bristol some years ago that Zipporah was suggestive of the church in her public unloveliness. What is the next feature? In which epistle would formation come in in a collective way?

J.T. I think what I alluded to there was the Cushite woman, but she links on with Zipporah. I think 1 Corinthians is really a counterpart of Romans; it is a collective way of presenting individual christians as seen in Romans, although Romans, as was remarked, contemplates us as one body in Christ. Paul said to the Corinthians that he had to treat them as babes, but babes in Christ, they had christian status but very little formation; hence the ugliness that is depicted in the first epistle, inclusive you might say of both Zipporah and the Cushite woman. Romans I think is peculiarly Zipporah, because the marital relation is touched on;

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it is an element, a formative element too, already in the mind of faith.

E.L.M. Whatever formation might follow the status would not add much, I judge, to the status that is there for all saints.

J.T. Formation does not affect that status at all; that is a comforting thing. The "in Christ" in Romans and Corinthians gives us the status, the smallness of formation does not affect that; it affects our enjoyment of it of course, but it does not affect the status itself, which is very comforting.

J.McK. In this first scripture is there a suggestion that the Lord has long been deprived of what is marital; apparently there had once been the enjoyment of it, and there had come a dissolution. Would that be seen in church history?

J.T. That may be in church history, quite so, but she was sent back for a purpose, it says, and after he had sent her back he had been deprived; she had been away during the exodus; of course that would give her an opportunity now of more definiteness and distinctness. Perhaps we ought to be reminded that even the youngest believer sitting down at the Lord's supper ought to have some little understanding of his relation to Christ, that he is to be to Another, even unto Him who is raised up from among the dead.

A.H.G. Do you suggest that some progress or formation in the marital relation is necessary in view of the service of God?

J.T. Well it is, and that is what I hope we shall come to. We do not get the full result in Moses. We do not get more than we have here, as far as I see it, but when we come to Abigail we get what fits in with the second part of the service of God, namely the Davidic part, a part that attaches to David, Christ. It is David rejected of course, but still he stands out as the one who inaugurates the service of God in its heavenly character. It is the heavenly side that we get

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in David and Solomon and I think that is where Abigail comes in, first in her understanding, then her beauty, then the comeliness, that agility with which she responds to David as the marriage is proposed. I think all that fits in with assembly service as we are entering on the heavenly side of it.

E.T.S. Is it your thought that the Zipporah side should come in as we come together to break bread?

J.T. I think so. That is what I had in mind, that the youngest believer ought to have the sense that he is to be to Another. There is that idea; we enter on a collective position; we cease to be so many individuals, and I think in the loaf there is a thought that the Lord has devoted Himself to us, and that we are to be to Another. It is just that, even to Him who is raised from among the dead. It is the immediate transition that is alluded to, to be to Another, "So that, my brethren, ye also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit unto God" (Romans 7:4), and immediately you get this, "that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter".

Ques. Do you intend us to understand from Exodus 18 that while assembly relationship is recognised the prominence of Jethro is to emphasise the importance of subjection as approaching the service of God?

J.T. That is what I have in mind. Subjection and initial formation. As you have been remarking Jethro takes great pleasure in what God has done for Israel, and he is now coming into it himself because he says, "Blessed be Jehovah, who has delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians ... Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods" (Exodus 18:10,11). He is delivered from idolatry, which is very important. 1 Corinthians 10:14 stresses that, that we are to be free from idolatry, "Flee from idolatry" the apostle says. That is what I was thinking of, do you think that is right?

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Rem. Yes, I just wanted to be clear. I gather that the marital idea you were emphasising is not developed, but rather that the moral conditions which are suggested in Jethro would prepare for a full part in the service of God.

J.T. I think if we follow that thought we shall get help, especially young christians. Jethro is evidently a subject man, and has come under the influence of God through Moses. In the next section of the chapter he assists Moses; then we find that Israel in the beginning of chapter 19 is directly in the presence of the mountain of God, where they were to serve Him. Now we are ready for service. It says Israel encamped there before the mountain. We have an allusion to the time which elapsed since they left Egypt, three months; then their departure from Rephidim is mentioned, alluding typically to their having received the Spirit although it is not stressed; it does not say they drank the water, but still the idea is that the Spirit is already there. Rephidim and the period which elapsed since they left Egypt I think are elements that enter into the position. We are now ready for the service of God, so that it says Israel encamped there before the mount. It is their own action. Earlier Moses brought them and Jehovah commanded them to move, but now they are doing it themselves, meaning we are making headway. Then we are told that Moses went up to God and Jehovah called him. God now has to say to them through the mediator, as to what they are in His own mind, what Israel is to be to Him. We are made to understand now what delight we afford God, but all is to be on the principle of obedience; that is what chapter 19 brings out.

-. A. In verse 10 Jethro refers to the goodness of God to Israel. Would that be the element of unselfishness -- important as bearing on the service of God?

J.T. Quite so. He is not thinking of any deliverance from Midian; he is clear of that, he is delighting in Jehovah, the God of Israel; it seems to me that it is a

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christian coming into the truth through Moses. Now Moses takes the initiative, and in verse 3 of chapter 19 Moses went up; it is Christ's part now: the people are ready for service, but how are they to serve? Well, Moses takes the matter over; it must come under his hand, and that is what enters into the whole of chapter 19 until Moses leads the people out of the camp to meet God; that is a definite act of Moses, a definite movement.

W.F. Is there a further thought in Ephesians 5, where the assembly is subjected to the Christ? That would bring in formation, but it seems there is further development.

J.T. The word subjected has to be noted. I apprehend that it is the divine mind for her. There can be nothing else; it is the divine mind for Christ, not that He ever needed it, but Christ is subject to God too. "Then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection" eternally (1 Corinthians 15:28), it seems to be that the mind of God has the whole divine realm in view. Individual members of the assembly may not be subject, but the divine mind is that the assembly is subjected, it is put in that position.

W.F. So the thought of subjection is carried right through up to Christ, subject to the Christ, in Ephesians?

J.T. I think all this is very wholesome, and especially for young christians, because our minds travel faster than our feet, and the question is whether we will get any further light until we move in a moral way.

W.D. Would the end of Acts 1 fit in? I was thinking that the details and the time in connection with the bringing in of Matthias would teach them subjection, and then there is the question of this service.

J.T. Exactly. You see it in the converts at the beginning; in Acts 2:42 it says, "They persevered in the teaching ... of the apostles"; that meant teaching that had authority in it. It was not simply God's teaching, which of course has authority, but the apostles

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were the express representatives of God, in Christ, of authority, and all truly converted people recognise the necessity for obedience, and obedience to the truth, the apostles' teaching. We learn everything from that; we cannot learn the apostles' teaching from the Old Testament but we understand the Old Testament from the apostles' teaching; that is how we understand the truth; we begin with the apostles, and of course that includes their epistles.

-. S. May I ask if the reason for the exhortation to Titus to ordain elders in each city was this matter of subjection and moral conditions?

J.T. That is a very good suggestion; it would be better if you quoted from Acts 14, where the apostle Paul and Barnabas, at the end of their first service, chose themselves elders; the ones they would select must pass under their hands, under their judgment. They selected themselves elders in every assembly, not only in every city, because the time for the city had not come; it is rather the need of the little gatherings to come under the principle of rule. They can never be self-sustaining without it, so that the elders constituted them, as it were, self-contained -- of course, I only mean in a relative way. The apostles selected the elders, not just old brothers, but selected persons; it is heaven's choice and provision so that heaven's rule may be in all these little gatherings. That is the idea; then Titus was to select them in the cities later, because the idea is progressive; the cities are places of testimony where God would have His base, and there must be elders, not simply one elder, but elders in each city.

But as to the matter of formation, Romans introduces the word in chapter 12:2: "Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"; that is where it begins, in the mind. Then, of course, we have in the end of the book a reference to the mystery, which is an element introduced at Rome.

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One can understand that spiritual brethren at Rome -- there must have been a good few because there are so many mentioned by name -- might ask, what does this last paragraph in this letter mean, this matter of the mystery? That of course lays the basis for Colossians and Ephesians; that is to say Christ is to come before us now in a new way; He is head of His body the assembly, in Colossians; it is what He is personally. The facts stated of Him make Him exceedingly attractive, the Father has translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, a very attractive thought, the Son of the Father's love. We begin to see Him now in a new light, and He becomes more and more lovely in our eyes; the Song of Songs enter into all this, showing the growing appreciation of the bride for the Bridegroom, how well she can speak of Him. I think Colossians is the epistle that helps christians on that line, and as Christ becomes lovely to us we become lovely to Him; that is how the matter stands in the Song of Songs.

F.W. Are you passing over now to Abigail?

J.T. Yes, and so Abigail goes on to Colossians and Ephesians. The first thing mentioned about her is that she was a woman of good understanding. A wife will soon lose caste in the eyes of her husband if she has no understanding; understanding holds longer than any mere beauty or graces; it lasts to the end.

-.H. Do we see in Abigail both the thought of subjection and formation?

J.T. I think she is a woman who has had a history as a wife.

-.H. The thought passes on to Colossians and Ephesians.

J.T. As Jethro and Moses each had histories, Abigail had a history as a wife, how she developed with such a husband. What trials she must have had, possibly alluding to what the early disciples had to contend with from the Jews; the twelve apostles and their converts had to contend with this sort of churlishness

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from the Jews, such unreasonableness from the high priest and others. Well, they gained through it; it is that kind of formation developing into great wisdom, knowing what to do.

You can see how delightful they were to Christ in all their experience with the Jewish leaders: there is no resentment with them, no natural quarrelsomeness at all, they are subject in all they are going through, so that the Lord in time speaks to Saul of Tarsus and He says, 'You are persecuting Me'. That is the Lord can call attention to these people as Himself; they were people that endured under these circumstances, and who were formed under them. He can call attention to them as showing the same graces that marked Him, as He suffered from the very same people, from the Jews.

E.L.M. Would you think that the men that David sent to Abigail would bring in their service the character of ministry that enhances grace in the eyes of Abigail and that would correspond to the greatness of Christ in Colossians?

J.T. Quite so, the message was in the grace of Christ, you mean, but there is no response to it at all, that is, I suppose, Nabal is just a type of the Jewish element, or rather the Jewish authorities under which, you might say, the twelve had to serve. "David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her as his wife. And the servants of David came to Abigail to Carmel, and spoke to her, saying, David has sent us to thee, to take thee as his wife. And she arose and bowed herself on her face to the earth, and said, Behold, let thy handmaid be a bondwoman to wash the feet of the servants of my lord". Beautiful submission and humility mark her. "And Abigail hasted, and arose, and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that followed her; and she went after the messengers of David, and became his wife". It seems a beautiful tribute in type to the saints in the early days in the Acts in the way they came to

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see that they were no longer subservient to the Jewish authorities in things relating to God, and how the graces suitable to them appeared, so that the Lord can speak of them as Himself; they correspond with Himself when He speaks to Saul, hence they are fit to be united to Him; that is where union lies, in what is entirely of Christ and suitable to Him.

J.H.T. Is it a feature of the last days that in spite of the serious opposition, where there is a desire on this line the Lord will make a highway for ministry of this character?

J.T. I am sure that is right. You would like to see now in our service these graces that are seen in Abigail; she is, to begin with, a woman of understanding; that is most important, because it helps us in the giving out of our hymns and our thanksgivings, we are to know when to do a thing and how to do it. There is a time for everything, and then in doing it she is of a beautiful countenance. That is how we come under the Lord's eye as formed in His own graces.

G.E.E. Would this be the counterpart to the reference to David personally in chapter 16?

J.T. I think that is right. His name means "beloved", of course, and his graces and beauty are depicted there, and now she corresponds.

F.T.S. Would it be her commendation that she says, "to wash the feet of the servants of my lord". Would she be on the line of John 13 there?

J.T. I think that is very good. You remember the qualifications of anyone put on the list of the assembly in 1 Timothy 5a widow, not less than sixty years of age, the wife of one man, who has brought up children, who has washed the saints' feet. She is suitable; that is beauty really; she adds to the assembly and is no charge to it. The assembly has a peculiar place in that scripture as to being charged: "Let not the assembly be charged" (1 Timothy 5:16). It is a remarkable thing that the assembly is under the Lord's eye and it is not

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to be freighted with unnecessary things, because it loses its beauty if it is bowed down with such. So it is here that the graces of Christ in His service, and in every way, are to be reflected in the assembly. The Lord is pleased with us as we approach the heavenly part of our service; there is impulse given by the Lord's delight in that, in what He sees in us. So that each has to have in his mind, 'Can I stimulate the Lord?' We have the idea of this stimulation in the drink offering; it is what is delightful to the divine mind and it is an impulse of love.

A.H.G. What would be the setting of Nabal here? Although Abigail was linked with such a man yet these features were being formed in her.

J.T. I thought as we were saying that it might be traced in the ministry of the twelve and the converts in the early chapters of Acts, because the Jewish element was still in control and had the husband's place. Romans 7 says she should be to another. We have been made dead to all that by the body of Christ, I think it is that sort of thing, churlishness; as Paul says their hand is against every man, they are like Ishmaelites, they are impossible; the Jewish element is impossible. The brethren were subject nevertheless; people went and dragged them out of their homes; Saul of Tarsus represented that element, an insolent, overbearing man who would go and drag women and children to the tribunals; that is the idea, but one day all that ceased.

E.G. The same principle is seen in Hannah and Peninnah?

J.T. That is beautiful, Hannah was formed under that influence. I believe when Paul heard the Lord's voice, "Why persecutest thou me?", morally that was the end of judaism; it awaited the destruction of Jerusalem, but that was the end of it morally. Those that were scattered at the persecution that arose in relation to Stephen went to different parts; they went everywhere preaching the gospel. They went as far as Antioch

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and Caesarea, but there was a serious salient left in the divine territory in the person of Saul, so that Acts 9 begins "But Saul", as if to say in spite of all this activity, for in truth the saints (or Abigail) are escaping the influence of judaism. Had they followed the Lord's word they would have left Jerusalem when Stephen was martyred, had they fully followed the Lord's direction that would have been the end of that thing, the metropolitan influence that centred there. The persons remained there, and the scattered ones went on preaching, went out into the gentile world preaching, but a serious salient remained in the divine territory, and it is said in Acts 9 "But" as much as to say in spite of all this, there is this point where judaism still rules; it still rules in the person of Saul breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord. But the Lord says, I will bring him down; and that was morally the end of judaism. Saul's ministry was to take the saints out of all that and set them up in relation to Christ in heaven as the new Husband. The Lord brought that man down and the whole line is straightened out, and now there is movement forward. Judaism is left, I know it continued in detail, but the destruction of Jerusalem by God later brought it all to an end.

Ques. Is it significant in connection with what you say that at that particular moment Abigail hasted?

J.T. That is the sort of agility which reminds you of the hind of the morning; it is a feminine thought, it is the heading of Psalm 22, pointing to what Christ had in mind in dying, that He might have this agility of affection for Himself. She has it here.

Now as regards Pharaoh's daughter there is nothing to say, we have the formation in Abigail; she represents the full thought, the wisdom and understanding and the beauty and the graces and humility and all that is proper to the assembly, but we must carry the thought on to Solomon because he is the counterpart of David,

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for 1 Kings is the heavenly system of Christ in which he shines, hence the number of buildings, the house of Jehovah, the house of the forest of Lebanon, the house of Pharaoh's daughter. It is all a question of glory, glory in display presently, and we come into that in our service, gradually we come up to the greatness of the heavenly thought, the glory of Christ in heaven, and all that, but we must have the assembly in its own distinction, that is a house for it. She is Solomon's spouse; we have the very thought in Song of Songs 3:11: "In the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart". All that enters into the assembly service.

Ques. Would that peculiar place for the assembly be suggested at the beginning of John 14, "I go to prepare you a place"?

J.T. Very likely; it is the heavenly side of the position. These houses are interesting; it is not easy to place them, but to me the Father's house is a great general thought, and then there is an individual place for each, He has gone "to prepare you a place"; it is like Solomon preparing a particular place for those of us who form the assembly. Is that what you have in mind?

Rem. I thought you were suggesting that there had to be a peculiar place for Pharaoh's daughter.

F.W. And that place would indicate the preciousness of the assembly to Christ.

J.T. Clearly, we cannot say anything about Pharaoh's daughter personally, beyond that she is just a gentile, but that is the point, what Christ has from among the gentiles in the scene of glory; we do not want to deny Him that now.

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THE RESPONSIBLE AND THE SUBJECTIVE SIDES IN THE ASSEMBLY

Matthew 1:20 - 24; Matthew 2:13 - 15, 19 - 23; Luke 1:46 - 55

J.T. It is in mind to compare a little the beginnings of these two gospels, the first having reference to the governing side in the assembly, the male side; the other, to the affectionate, subjective side; both combining according to the teaching of the Lord in our souls. So that we have three communications made to Joseph in Matthew and none to Mary, whereas Mary is more prominent in Luke. The instruction would be that the believers in a locality are taken account of responsibly; and in Joseph we have an example of entire submission to divine communications, and to divine indications too; without such we shall have derangement and cleavage. So that it says of Joseph in the passage read in the first chapter, that he "having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him", and then in the next chapter: "And, having arisen, he took to him the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt", and then: "And he arose and took to him the little child and its mother, and came into the land of Israel". He is thus representative, it seems, of the more responsible element, whereas in Luke 1:38, Zacharias who represents this, fails; and Mary not only says: "Behold the bondmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to thy word", but she has a composition; she immediately adds to the service of God. If the responsible, ruling side is subject and trustworthy, the subjective side will come into line, so that the service of God is continued in obedience and trustworthiness in those that are responsible.

F.S.M. Is it significant that Joseph is referred to in Matthew as a righteous man, at the very introduction of his name?

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J.T. Well, I thought of that; "being a righteous man", it is said: and would you not say that the word of the Lord to John the baptist later, "thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15), is also significant?

F.S.M. Yes, indeed!

J.T. The assembly, having in view its government and order and conflict too, makes much of righteousness and the dominance of the Lord so that there is no room in it at all for man's will. Those here mentioned are representative of the line from Abraham down, and in verse 16 Joseph is brought in: "and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ". So that he has an outstanding place, and as a righteous man he is morally entitled to it.

J.C.E. Why do we get these references to a dream?

J.T. It is an established means, a condition of mind that God takes advantage of to speak to man. It would seem as if his will is out of the way, as if there is more room for God to operate. We have, for instance, the Lord came to Ananias in Acts 9; it was not in a dream, and Ananias questioned the Lord.

J.C.E. It is only Matthew that gives us that Pilate's wife suffered many things in a dream (Matthew 27:19).

T.H. Would you say that whenever the Lord has anything on hand, He will indicate it to the responsible element?

J.T. That is good. He will not go past any of us in the position of responsibility except there is a moral reason for it. Joseph was obviously the responsible person; the Lord took him on. "An angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream" and in the subsequent appearings, also it is angelic: that is, he is capable of receiving communications through another.

T.H. Even if those communications came in a providential way, not necessarily of the Spirit?

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J.T. The idea I think is representation of God as in Revelation 1:1, God "sending by his angel, to his bondman John". I think it is the idea of representation, that you can receive from God through another; it is a very important matter in assembly services that we receive testimony from others.

F.S.M. So is trustworthiness evidenced by his implicit obedience? In the first instance, he did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him; and in the next two he took to him the little Child and His mother. There is absolute obedience to the word.

J.T. Quite so: that is a good point, because, were he governed by his natural affections, he would put the mother first. He puts the little Child first according to the word of the angel. That would show he is spiritual too; the instructions he is obeying are spiritual. To place the little Child before His mother is a spiritual touch. Those who are responsible in the assembly must progress and learn to be spiritual, and put the Lord before anything, oneself, or one's wife or children, whatever it may be.

W.W. It says, "While he pondered on these things, behold an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream".

J.T. That is good. It is important to ponder things. Mary, we are told by Luke, kept these things in her mind and pondered them in her heart; so that they were both suitable. It is better to do that than to take counsel with another immediately. There is a good deal of taking counsel with others which is right to a point, after we have been to the Lord. I believe it is much better in a crisis for brethren to go to the Lord, because, if it is a crisis, the moral condition is to be tested. We do not go to each other, we go to the Lord first; then come together. "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety" (Proverbs 11:14), and then each of the brethren will be able to speak of his impressions from the Lord.

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"While he pondered on these things", as if the Lord were to honour that matter, the pondering.

T.H. This would be a very exercising situation, would it not? That is, the issue was in doubt in Joseph's mind, whether it was of God or not; and I think what you say is very important as to seeking the Lord in regard of a matter, being with the Lord as it presents itself, and not seeking counsel with one another.

J.T. I am sure it is. Counsel with one another comes in in its place because we are told: "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety", but to apply to a brother as soon as something happens is a doubtful procedure. Get to the Lord first and let the other brother get to the Lord.

F.S.M. Is that how we become of one mind in the Lord?

J.T. Very good: quite so. We may be sure that Joseph and Mary took counsel about all these things in time, and how sure they would both be, each having to do with the Lord about it!

F.A.W. Is it suggestive that there is a quotation from Scripture before Joseph's awakening? Would it suggest that the scriptures would come in to confirm?

J.T. Yes, the quotation from Isaiah; it is remarkable that the Spirit of God puts that in before He tells us about Joseph awaking. It is a very interesting bit to heaven. The composition of this bit must have been of the supremest care in heaven; so much entered into it. The natural mind, and Satan too, would be so ready to take advantage of it; the natural mind is shut out so effectively. Before Joseph's obedience is stated, the scripture from Isaiah is brought forward to assure our hearts that all is well. Many things of this kind come up, of lesser importance of course, designedly obscure, to bring out what there is to bring out, the work of God in the saints. The thing happens and you are ready for it, you know what to do; so that it is

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always a question of state. If people get wrong thoughts it is a question of state.

J.H.T. Would you say that the interpretation of Emmanuel would suggest the state with him? It was not interpreted to Ahaz in Isaiah 7, was it?

J.T. Does he not act accordingly? Trustworthiness seems to be the next point after the man's integrity is shown. He is an example for us in all assembly matters. His personal integrity is brought out first; then he is worthy of the trust. If a man behaves well in a crisis, the Lord will trust him with something. Do you think so?

J.H.T. I wondered whether the interpretation would strengthen his confidence enabling him to go forward: "God with us".

J.T. God was certainly with him: quite so. Did he not know it? For it is always really a question of a spiritual lead given -- how one needs God with him! A step on the way may be so momentous. How serious it would be if Joseph awaked doubting, for in truth he was immediately in charge of the matter as the husband of Mary.

F.S.M. Is the prophetic word valuable in a crisis? I was thinking how it is put here, a word by the Lord through the prophet, both in chapter 1:22, and in chapter 2:15, words by the Lord through the prophet. Is there significance in that?

J.T. I think there is; tell us a little more.

F.S.M. I was only thinking that the inspired scriptures in a given moment, in a crisis, come in in such power as to confirm the brother who is to take responsibility.

J.T. And then the person through whom it comes, the prophet. One has often noticed how the persons used by the Spirit of God in the Old Testament are brought down to us, showing how God brings His servants, those who have served well, forward in any current matter. I was wondering whether you had in

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mind the Spirit's lead now amongst us in prophetic service: Scripture shows that we are in difficult times, perilous times, and is the prophetic service not provided to meet the situation as it is?

F.S.M. I wondered whether that might be involved in this suggestion by the prophet.

J.T. Ahaz was a miserable leader: he was really in Joseph's position, was he not? In Isaiah 7, he was head of the house of David, and the passage speaks much of headship. He would not ask for a sign; he was too pious, a kind of fleshly-mindedness: and Jehovah says, I will give you a sign -- as if to say, you are not to have anything to do with it, it is outside your ability. "The virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son" (Isaiah 7:14). That is, it would all be the subjective side, the ruling side being altogether in failure; and that is often how the testimony is carried on. There is nothing said as to divine power in Isaiah 7; all the credit is to the virgin. That is a very suggestive thought for us. Even though there may not be distinguished gift or ability amongst the leading brothers, "Love never fails" (1 Corinthians 13:8). Christ is brought forth nevertheless. Very often the leading ones stand in His way, as Ahaz was doing.

H.H.W. Would it encourage Joseph to be addressed as "son of David"?

J.T. That is another point of importance. He is shown in his full place of genealogy, showing he is on the line of rule, for that is the principle. The chapter begins with that, "Son of David, Son of Abraham". David is the prominent thought. Each brother ought to take that to heart, you know, as to whether he belongs to the line of rule. The man from the outset is in that place. How apt it is to Christ, the Son of David, gathering up in Himself all that David stood for, that principle! But here, Joseph is his son in the sense of being righteous, a man who pondered things and

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became spiritual, putting the little Child before His mother according to instructions.

Ques. Why should it be "Son of David, Son of Abraham"?

J.T. It is to link on the genealogy with Abraham, but it is the ruling thought, the royal line. It is a peculiar word, it is the genesis really of Jesus Christ; so that it begins with David, because it is a question of government: Matthew has government in mind.

T.H. So would you say that in every locality as that rule is in evidence, the little Child should appear, what is of God should appear?

J.T. Exactly. It is not the Infant as in Luke, it is a little more developed thought. Christ has a place more quickly in Matthew.

T.H. There is something to which God can commit the Child.

J.T. Quite so. Even the Child is under his care.

T.H. This would be largely a protective matter.

J.T. Exactly. No charge could be greater, and the passage shews he was equal to the responsibility. So that where you have the ruling class, the brothers, in other words, with God in the matter the spiritual position will soon come to light. The magi coming in in the beginning of chapter 2, bring in an element that enhances what we are speaking of. They were looking for the King: "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?" (verse 2). They have a great thought, the King; He is that already.

J.S.E. Does that not show the continuance of this thought of a righteous man? It is emphasised that Joseph was righteous, and I was wondering whether that is the great principle in the rule of the heavens, the word 'heavens' being very prominent in Matthew's gospel. These magi seem to be the connecting link with Joseph. Does it tend to encourage us in the fact that the heavens rule? Cannot we go through in spite of all the opposition in the religious leaders, as seen in

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Herod, if we place ourselves under heaven's protection as seen in the little Child?

J.T. The magi, even if they were astronomers as we suppose, would not regard the star that was appearing to them as a lawless star. Astronomers generally might think it was. No star of Jesus could be lawless; it must be the supreme star of the universe; the whole position must be dominated by it.

J.S.E. I thought that is why the emphasis as to righteousness is by itself; Joseph is righteous, he is in keeping with the star, definitely moving under the influence of the heavens. Is not that the great secret in our administrative matters?

J.T. I think it is; it brings in heaven strikingly at once as having to say in these great matters. The magi, too, are amenable because the star to them is equal to the angel to Joseph.

F.S.M. It could never be said of a lawless star that it "stood over the place where the little child was" (verse 9).

J.T. "Where the little child was", the embodiment of all righteousness.

Rem. Balaam spoke of a star that should arise; a lawless star is one that falls.

J.T. Well, Christ, I suppose, was the Star there; He is said to be the Morning Star. It is an allusion to Him arising. The introduction of the astronomical side in this section is very striking, bringing in the idea of the position and rule of heaven, the idea of righteousness down here.

A.A.C. Does the principle of holiness also enter into it? "the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God" (Luke 1:35); subsequently Mary speaks of "the Mighty One ... holy is his name".

J.T. Well, it would: it must enter into it. Luke stresses that side, the priestly side; so that the one into whose hands the Child comes is Simeon. Here, of

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course, Joseph must be priestly to be used; but the point is, he is a righteous man, and being obedient, a communication is sent to him mediately. He is able to take it from a representative of God; and therefore he is entrusted with the greatest thing, the little Child and his mother. The charge is Joseph's.

W.W. What is involved in naming the Child? In Matthew 1:25 it says, Joseph "called his name Jesus"; but in Luke 1:31 the word is to Mary: "thou shalt ... bear a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus".

J.T. That is the instruction given to his father here; it is given to the mother in Luke; quite so.

T.W.N. What is contained in the word from the angel to Joseph, "Take to thee"?

J.T. "Take to thee the little child and his mother". It could be similar to the passage in Genesis 8 which says Noah took the dove in to him, into the ark; there is an affectionate link there, not simply take, but take the Child to thee, into thy bosom, as it were.

J.S.E. Is it an extension of the astronomical idea which you referred to? I was thinking of the star with the magi and the angel with Joseph; he is now suggesting additional features on the astronomical line, and the governing feature now is what is suggested in this little Child, and he is to move in relation to it.

J.T. I think it must be an affectionate link that is in mind. If you really take the person in affection, as you would any divine thought, as Simeon took the little Child in his arms, it means I think, that you take it to yourself.

F.S.M. Is it an additional thought in relation to Joseph? We have already seen him as righteous and spiritual, and now he is developing affectionate features?

J.T. I think you can see that, the feature that was there: "having arisen, he took to him the little child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt". What a charge he had! We know he had a long way to

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go; and no doubt a dangerous way to go to a foreign element. What exercise he would have! Scripture only gives us enough to set our minds at rest by the Spirit; and so it applies in a lesser way in how you regard any divine thought that is committed to you. It is to be kept with the greatest care.

W.J.T. Would you say it was quite right for him to be afraid in verse 22?

J.T. Quite so: a suitable exercise I think: "having heard that 'Archelaus reigns over Judaea, instead of Herod his father', he was afraid to go there". Why should he not be?

Ques. Is there anything in relation to His name being called Jesus; it is the individual. In relation to His name being called Emmanuel, it is "they shall call his name Emmanuel".

J.T. I suppose Emmanuel is hardly a title that a parent could give, it is more what is experimental, I suppose. What came out in Jesus, His testimony, brought out what He was. In Luke it says: "Shall be called Son of God", meaning that it should come out in Him that He was that; and so I suppose here, "they shall call his name Emmanuel", would mean that came out in Him, as we see in the gospels constantly: "God has visited his people" (Luke 7:16).

Ques. What was the thought: "Out of Egypt have I called my son"?

J.T. It is to bring out another great prophetic thought; the Spirit of God had said that earlier through Hosea. It only adds to the greatness of what Joseph is doing, carrying out prophetic thoughts. If God gives you a thought, and you care for it, you will be honoured.

Ques. Does it give the thought of the history of the children of Israel begun over again?

J.T. Well, all that has been said has been fulfilled; the real thought was this. See the magnitude of Joseph's work now! We are only making an application; not to detract from the magnitude of what is here: any divine

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thought that is entrusted to you is linked up with other thoughts; it is not isolated. How necessary to be true to anything you get! It belongs to a chain of things.

F.S.M. Would it encourage us to see that any spiritual movement is supported by Scripture?

J.T. Exactly: you soon find that; if you get a thought and ponder it, as Joseph did, you find that there is a scripture that supports you, and you go forward. You are not so sure as to the application, and presently the Lord gives you the support of it. You marvel at the resources which are in Scripture, resources for ministry. Presently something comes up that assures you that what you have in mind to speak about is right. Every verse here is supported right through by prophetic testimony, shewing what sure ground we are on. The fact is that chapter 1 is to teach us the legality of any given position we are on. If a judgment be of God, the Lord will come in and shew you that it is supported by Scripture: you are on sure ground.

A.A.C. Has this position to be faced today?

J.T. That is another thing. Of course Joseph is used to take the little Child out of the way; in the book of Revelation He is caught up into heaven, but here He is taken into Egypt. So Joseph is used in the same sense; Joseph is the instrument used now. The more you think of it, the more dignified our position is; if we are going on with God, we are linked up with the whole testimony of God.

T.W.N. Is every move of the testimony definitely regulated? "Be there until I shall tell thee".

J.T. That is good. You speak of the word to Joseph: "Be there until I shall tell thee"; that is, he is under orders. To return earlier than he should do, to disobey instructions, would be to expose the little Child.

T.H. Would you say that that is a great thing for all the brothers who exercise responsibility to have in mind?

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J.T. If you get a thought and it is effective, you go on. Joseph did well to act on it; but now he has to wait for more orders. That is good. Indeed, he acted on fear in verse 22, and then, "having been divinely instructed in a dream, he went away into the parts of Galilee". That is, God respected his fear. It was a wholesome, right exercise. Why should I not be afraid of a man I have known to be opposed to Christ? And then God helps me further.

J.H.T. Was Paul under orders in Acts 18:9? Having made one move in the way of separation, the Lord appeared to him in a vision and says: "Fear not, but speak". He does not rest until he has implanted the testimony in Corinth. Does that go with Matthew?

J.T. That is good. We have often been struck by the perturbation of the apostle there. The Lord must have taken account of His servant, and assures him in a vision that he is not to be afraid to go through. It is very encouraging; and I am sure we realise corresponding things now in our service.

C.H.H. Did the further manifestations come in in consequence of the first one?

J.T. It is all one piece, including the wholesome fear that he had as regards Archelaus reigning in Judaea: he received an instruction on that, as if he is honoured in that fear.

Then, as regards Luke; of course, we can only say a few words, but it is to bring out what is concurrent with us. In the history of the testimony, or in any locality, where the ruling side is right, the subjective and affectionate side will come into line. Mary is outstanding in the first chapter for subjection. Zacharias fails: his wife is more or less right, but still, she is his wife. But Mary appears in Luke as a peculiar vessel, and she receives the great messenger, the same angel, indeed, that had come to Zacharias; she receives him in a sober way. At first she was troubled at his word. "Hail, thou favoured one! the Lord is with thee"

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(verse 28): that is, undoubtedly, taking account of the work of God that was there: "blessed art thou amongst women. But she, seeing the angel, was troubled at his word, and reasoned in her mind what this salutation might be". And the angel said to her, "Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favour with God" (verses 29,30). And then it goes on after his speaking, Mary says: "Behold the bondmaid of the Lord; be it to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her" (verse 38). I think we ought to note that it is an allusion to her trustworthiness, that she can be left. She is a subject person, and the principle of pondering must have gone on; so she has a composition now in verse 46. It says of Elizabeth that the Holy Spirit came upon her, but not so of Mary. As Elizabeth speaks to her she says: "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour. For he has looked upon the low estate of his bondmaid; for behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. For the Mighty One has done to me great things, and holy is his name; and his mercy is to generations and generations to them that fear him. He has wrought strength with his arm; he has scattered haughty ones in the thought of their heart. He has put down rulers from thrones, and exalted the lowly. He has filled the hungry with good things, and sent away the rich empty, He has helped Israel his servant, in order to remember mercy, (as he spoke to our fathers,) to Abraham and his seed for ever". She speaks as a person who has a psalm; that is, she speaks of things having been done: she, herself, a testimony to what has been done. She has experienced the power of God.

C.R.B. She gets this intelligence in the hill country; is there anything in that?

J.T. I think there is. I have often thought of it as the sphere of fellowship. She went to Elizabeth in the hill country: "And Mary, rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste" (verse 39). As

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much as to say: The Lord has had communications with me, and I have taken the ground of being obedient; now, I need the help of spiritual persons. She sought out the brethren in the hill country. Not, as we were saying, seeking them first; but the angel of the Lord has departed and has left her. She would say, I need all the help I can get, do you not think?

C.R.B. Yes, quite.

J.T. She was greatly confirmed because of the joy in the unborn child in Elizabeth.

C.R.B. We need to get in touch with the spiritual.

J.T. Exactly. Evidently she had a composition of her own. Not as though it came out just then, but going into the meeting where there are spiritual elements, you are able to speak better; and that is what happens here.

F.S.M. Not only does she speak of the things God has done, but as if in the coming in of Christ, everything is secured as to the future.

J.T. I think that is wonderful, that a young woman like this should have such a psalm! It is experience, experience of the power of God.

Ques. Would you say a word as to all generations calling her blessed and the thought of to 'generations and generations'?

J.T. It is not a local matter; we are often too local, both as to place and time. It is right to be local as to place and time, but it is not right to stay there. The more spiritual we are as to any given matter, the more we shall be enlarged. Generations would mean that the idea is going on; not simply in the Bible, in God's book, but in persons.

J.S.E. Like Noah "a just man, perfect amongst his generations" (Genesis 6:9)? Would it be out of the way to ask for a word as to this great term Jehovah Elohim in this connection?

J.T. Please tell us more.

J.S.E. It says: "the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father" (verse 32).

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J.T. The name is Jehovah Elohim, you mean; quite so. I think it is always a spiritual term: of course, God is too; but the Lord God, as you know, comes in first in Genesis 2; it is found more frequently there than anywhere in the Bible; and it is to introduce a spiritual thought I think, added to creation. Creation is a great general thought in Genesis 1, the great general thought of God. He has established a link, in chapter 2, with His creature man; so it brings out a covenant really, and it looks as if it carries that thought through, that it involves personal relations: not only relations in creation, but personal. Perhaps you have some further thought.

J.S.E. I only wondered whether the real secret as to the apprehension of any composition lies in the thought conveyed in this great name, Jehovah Elohim.

J.T. Well, I think Genesis 2 gives light as to its use subsequently. It is not a new thought, and, of course, it could apply nowhere more than here where it is found: "He shall be great, and shall be called Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end" (verses 32,33). There are two personalities there, David and Jacob, besides Messiah Himself.

F.S.M. Would you say a word as to how sisters today have the privilege of making such a contribution as Mary's psalm?

J.T. Well, I think Mary is a model for sisters as Joseph is for brothers. Mary kept things in her mind and pondered them in her heart. I think she refers to the way sisters want to take things in and ponder them, and work things out from them. The more wealth they have in that way, the more the service of God will be added to. Because, here it is an experimental matter too; what God had done. She, herself, is a testimony to the great power of God in the most inscrutable way. It evidently alludes to spiritual formation and works

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out here in the readiness in which she has her part as seen in her composition. Elizabeth had hers too; the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth.

Rem. It says: "Blessed is she that has believed" (verse 45).

J.T. Quite so. I was remarking that the Holy Spirit came upon Elizabeth and she speaks accordingly, as if it was an immediate thing, something that arose at the moment; as in the meeting for ministry, there is something that is revealed to one sitting by; something which is appropriate has come in immediately. It is the leading thought now, an immediate revelation; and I think Elizabeth is like that; and when she has finished, Mary is to speak; but not as one on whom the Spirit of God has come, but as if the Spirit was a known thing and this is the product of it.

F.S.M. Things said in holy conversation.

J.T. Well, it is remarkable there are three persons in it; Mary, Elizabeth and John the baptist. I think it is a foreshadowing of the thought of the body; the wonderful delicacy of the organism. Luke, I think, has that in mind.

J.H.T. Has Paul that thought in mind in Philippi? Would his remarkable submission to the will of the Lord in going immediately to Philippi lay the basis for the discovery of Lydia, and then the jailor, and the composition of God in the prison?

J.T. And a remarkable formation that followed too; Philippi is remarkable in that way.

T.H. Would you agree that the composition always comes from the experimental and subjective side of things? It comes that way; we might know what is current amongst us, but I take it the composition comes that way, by what is experimental.

J.T. A purely mental composition is usually borrowed from other things.

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THE FIELD, THE GARDEN, AND THE HOUSE

Genesis 27:26,27; Song of Songs 4:12 - 16; Song of Songs 5:1; Luke 15:25 - 28

These scriptures speak of the field, and the garden, and the house. They are peculiarly applicable to the assembly, applicable to the Lord's people; the more familiar we are with any scripture, the more it yields to us. We can understand how the writer of Psalm 119 meditated in the law continuously, and how patiently too he put down his thoughts; exhausting language, as it were, and yet not exhausting it, but taxing it fully: and, of course, it should be taxed. One of the most remarkable things in the creation is human language. Man is not the first to use it, for, according to Scripture, "God said, Let there be light" (Genesis 1:3). He had entered upon a piece of work which He was to accomplish by the day, and it began with light. Ever since that, light is shining: "God is light" (1 John 1:5); indeed, He has come into it, and is it Himself, He is light. So that language should be taxed, especially in setting out the mind of God, His word, His commandments, His precepts and ordinances, all that in any way bring to us what God is. The word field has a remarkable place in Scripture and it occurred to me after dinner, to be simple, in what we regard as a rural district, that it would not be out of place to bring in the agricultural side of the truth. The word field is used in a variety of senses: the Lord Himself used it to designate the world, the world in which as a field He was operating; for although He came to His own, He never lost sight of the fact that He was in the world; for it is said, "He was in the world ... and the world knew him not" (John 1:10). It was made by Him, but knew Him not. As its Creator, He could not but be affected as coming into it, coming into it with the sensibilities of a man; able to think of its mountains, its hills, its rivers, its

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lakes, and its seas; nothing was made without a purpose, so that certain commitments entered into the incarnation which extended beyond Israel: and so He so spoke in His service in Israel that the ministry could be used later as a wider area was taken in. The field might be small relatively or large, if God intended to call out a people for His name from the western nations; He prepared them for that. If He intended to form an assembly out of this people, He prepared a field for that; so that, understanding every field, He knew the kind of crop to sow: agricultural knowledge requires that we should understand the various soils; and God had selected the west, obviously, to work out His greatest thoughts. So that the idea of a field comes to us peculiarly. It would not be the field in which the elder brother was; no doubt his field was limited: he was in it, preferring to stay there and refusing the house; for, after all, the field is subservient to the great divine thought. As it is in any man's possession, it is to be worked for a crop; its value lies in the crop, for we are told in the types that the value of the land was in the crops. If the land was to be sold in view of jubilee, it was a question of the number of crops. So God, as I was saying, has taken up this western part, and He knew what it could yield. He makes much of Israel and what that land could yield, though it was very much more limited. He has the great east before Him too, yielding little or nothing for all these centuries; but, still, it is part of His field, and He knows the kind of crop it will yield and will sow there accordingly. So the thought is very wide and instructive too as to our outlook, and as in the Lord's service it is for each to select his field. The virtuous woman selects a field; she acquired it, a field that she could use in her service. So the word is applicable also to military affairs. As we know, Scripture refers to the fields of battle, and these too are to be selected; for success often depends on a right selection. If we are forced to fight in a

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certain position, we are at a disadvantage, whereas, if we select, we are at an advantage. God makes His own selection in every case; He never allows the enemy to circumvent. We are told that, in the battle between David and Absalom, Israel were out in a field, which was right; but eventually it is in the wood of Ephraim, which was not right; more people were destroyed by the wood than by the sword. So the idea is very wide and varied, and may apply to any one of us or any number of us together, as to what use we are making of anything that may yield in a spiritual way. Are we making the most of it?

Another thing that arises in the actual facts, of course, is that certain parts of the earth are exceedingly barren. We have to make allowance for that; so that judgment is required as to the thought however we look at it. Whatever comes to our hand that may yield, we are to see to it that it has all that is necessary as far as possible for success.

Well, now, all this enters into this verse in Genesis where we have a boy, a young man, older than some of us think, perhaps, at this time, Jacob; he is likened to a field. Then, again we have a person, the spouse, in Song of Songs likened to a garden; and in Luke, the house introduced incidentally. It must be there, that is the obvious thought; but it is only mentioned as it is marked by what is attractive, especially for young people. The moral is obvious; it is the prodigal, that kind of a man; in other words, it is composed of men like that. What interesting men they are! Were I to go up to heaven and be introduced to all the angels, I should find none like those persons who form the assembly. The Lord took his disciples, on the principle of selection, up the mountain in order that they might get a view of the persons, not of angels, they were not in view at all, but of two men talking with Jesus. Luke mentions the men first and gives the names afterwards. The point is, they are men. Matthew mentions the names

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first; that is to bring out the kind of people that are up there and that enter into the assembly; for that is what is in mind in Matthew, that there are such great personages as this; and that the conditions are so free and happy, felicitous. The greatest Person, the Lord of glory, can be talked to; you can go and speak to Him; they were speaking with Him. I refer to that, dear brethren, to substantiate what I said as to Luke 15, the sort of people that form the house, for Hebrews 3:6 tells us expressly: "whose house are we". It is a most concrete thought in the epistle to the Hebrews; it is formed of persons, but persons of a certain kind, those who continue in boldness, and boast in hope. That is the kind of persons; not ordinary christians so-called: "if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end" (Hebrews 3:6). Those are the persons. They do not droop: they are buoyant. They are already in this boldness, at liberty with God, on holy, happy terms with God and with one another. They love one another, and they boast too in the hope of the glory of God, not in what they are after the flesh; they are full of holy boast.

Well, dear brethren, we see, therefore, what the house is and how attractive it is, especially to young persons. It is no dead, lifeless place, but a crowd of names. It began with persons of distinction; every one of them could tell you wonderful things as you conversed with him. You say to yourself, I cannot find anything like this anywhere else! I will come to that at the end.

But this thought of the field: it is one person, evidently; it is not the thought of the world, not the field as described in Matthew 13it is a more limited thought. It denotes a certain kind of soil, a certain kind of fruitfulness; it has got a smell, and it is not only fruitful, but blessed of the Lord. This may be likened to a young christian, indeed, such is in view; and how the patriarch, dull as he was as the context shews (Isaac

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was dull spiritually, but he was not too dull to smell this matter), says, "The smell of a field which the Lord hath blessed". The idea of the exercise of the senses is mentioned much in Scripture, and smell is not the least; Isaac is not wanting in this sense. His affections are aroused by the man he is speaking to. He has testified about him, but he has not testified as to the actual substance that is there; a remarkable thing, shewing how the work of God links with the work of God. No doubt Isaac afterwards often judged himself that his eyes were not in relation to his sense of smell. We may often feel a thing is right and yet we go against it, perhaps because of our appetites or selfish desires. If there is a sense of smell, and other things do not agree, wait awhile and the Lord will make it plain; so we may be saved from turning our backs on a real field that God has in mind for great blessing, great results. He prepares His field without: we are to do the same. I was alluding to the west; undoubtedly God prepared this field. "Prepare thy work without, and put thy field in order"; God did that too and then got His house: "and afterwards build thy house" (Proverbs 24:27). That is about all I had to say about Jacob; much more could be said of a brother or sister who has given evidence of potential fruitfulness; not only that they possess ability, education and following graces, but that the Lord has blessed them. Without that, all else is nothing; it may be a field for the world, for Satan, in such a person. Indeed, we may be sure if there is any thought of one of us being a field for God, Satan will seek to get in too, as we learn in Matthew 13.

Well, now, that is the great general thought in Genesis. We have a garden too before we have a field in the way that I am speaking of it, but I go on to Song of Songs for the idea of the garden, because it is what is special; it is what the field, as it were, may develop into. The field, being a wider thought, develops into the garden, at least, spiritually. Jacob, subsequent to this remarkable

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word, scarcely yielded unselfishly; the fruit was not very quick in coming. He went off into a place and circumstances that would tend to preclude the crop that God had in mind; at least, he stayed too long there. Had he confined himself to the orders given him, to seek a suitable wife and return, there would have been no interference with the crop; but he remained twenty years instead of remaining a few days. That is to say, he made way for the enemy, and the enemy did not fail to sow the tares, both in himself and in his family; bitter results followed, until he is back again in Bethel where God could again stand beside him, where he is conscious of divine favour, the blessing of the Lord that makes rich; he was a field which the Lord had blessed. But the blessing, the true riches that were in mind, really belonged to Bethel and Canaan, so that the blessing of the Lord began as he returned to Bethel. His name was changed. The kind of fruit he had been bearing was not such as Isaac smelled. So it is with many in early life after conversion; the young ones get away, although the blessing is there potentially; other crops come up and cause the greatest sorrow as it was with Jacob. "The blessing of Jehovah, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow to it" (Proverbs 10:22). Why the sorrow then? I have done it; it is my own addition. How many have had that history! Instead of pursuing the line of grace with which we began, we have made room for the enemy to come in. The Lord says: "A man that is an enemy has done this" (Matthew 13:28). That is the sowing of the tares: the parents may not see it, but God sees it; God sees just where the enemy got in. Now Jacob is back at Bethel, and, as I was saying, the garden develops into something for Christ, some positive result unselfishly kept for Christ; definite headway may be made. So He says in spirit here: "A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed". We see now how in the individual saint there is the thought of a garden which

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involves quality and is not exactly for the sustenance of the house but rather for pleasure; so the feminine personage is alluded to: "A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse". There is the definite recognition by the Lord of family relationship. There is a certain loyalty and conservation in the idea of a garden viewed thus. She is a sister; the sister must come before the spouse. This is not the field; this describes the development of love, a known relation with Christ; indeed, He owns it, and it is much better that He should own it than that I should claim it. We should claim it; until we claim it we hardly can come into the benefit of it, but still, we are on more solid ground when He owns it. So the wives of the patriarchs were to be sisters; and it is certainly a mark of progress when the Lord owns this relation: "my sister", and then "my spouse"; and then the thought of jealous guarding of what there is. Much indeed there is, much contemplated: "Thy shoots are a paradise of pomegranates, with precious fruits; henna, with spikenard plants; spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: a fountain in the gardens, a well of living waters, which stream from Lebanon". One would appeal to all as to this remarkable result of the work of God, the conservation, as I was saying, in view of Another; not for oneself, for one would not have the brethren think him spiritual; if one is spiritual it will become known. There is no question about that: if there is one thing one can testify about the saints it is that in the long run they know who is who. It is not here that one should have a reputation amongst the brethren; the more spiritual one is, the more reputation one will have. The saints in general, in the long run, come to discern who is who and what one's measure is. We may as well make up our minds for that. So the speaker here is not thinking of that; the record here has not that in mind: the Lord in spirit contemplates that all this is

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here conserved in view of Himself; as much as to say, It is not for another. I may even make spiritual adornments an object so that I might be attractive to others. It is a most deceptive and insidious thing to acquire ability in divine things, and so adorn oneself and then think of oneself, that one is attractive in it. There is nothing of the kind here; it is what is for Him: and what a variety there is, dear brethren: "pomegranates, with precious fruits; henna with spikenard plants; spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices: a fountain in the gardens". It is a remarkable description of prosperity in one to whom Christ is all, and in all; in fact, in Colossians 3:11, He is "everything, and in all". If He is everything objectively, He is in all I have got. He is there indisputably with no rival; and that is what gives it its greatness, its attractiveness, that it is Christ "everything, and in all".

Well, now, she speaks of the north wind in verse 16: "Awake, north wind, and come, thou south; blow upon my garden"; that is, the Lord is speaking about all this from His point of view, but I should not be satisfied without examining myself in everything. The Lord is never behind in impressing us with what is due to us, but yet, I know what I am, and I had better look in and look around; so she actually calls for the north wind to awake, and nothing will bring out what is there like that; it will bring it forward. The north wind will bring out the spices. She needs that, the discipline of God. She knows well what is there; and, dear brethren, it is right we should look around inwardly. Romans teaches us the idea of inward analysis, and I doubt if any of us will be a garden without that. Whatever any faculty is capable of, it is to be that "Christ is everything, and in all". "If Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness" (Romans 8:10). So that one has a good conscience and can stand up in the presence of the

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Lord without a tremor, without any uneasy feeling, and, as has often been remarked, without meeting a rebuking gaze, a most precious thought; all that is in mind. So she says, "My garden", and "Let my beloved come into his garden"; it is everything to Him, so let the north wind bring it out: it is for Him, and Him alone. So He says: "I am come into my garden", meaning the Lord is ready to keep what is conserved in love and in the sense of the holy relationship with Him, His sister, His spouse; He comes in happily and partakes of what is there.

Then, as to the house, just a brief thought for the young people here, that there is more in christianity than they have been accustomed to think. Any confused thought in young people may be due to conditions in the place where they have been. Now the material of the house, what it is composed of, is: "yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house" (1 Peter 2:5). Who are these people? Those who come to Christ, 'living stones', that kind of people. Paul says, as I was remarking, "Whose house are we, if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end" (Hebrews 3:6). This is the kind of people! What God is offering to us, young people, is attractive, what He thinks is attractive; you cannot get the like of these people anywhere, even if you ransack the universe. We prove it in our convocations, and those of us who are going on will testify to that; the more we progress, the more the people of God are to us. So Peter says: 'living stones', a remarkable designation of persons who are moving towards Christ. You will find them where He is, not in places of amusement and such like. They are moving towards Christ, and He is the living stone. There is nothing else like this in the universe, and Paul makes it perfectly plain that it is ourselves, ourselves characteristically, not merely the brethren here. "Whose house are we", and then, as if to enlarge on the thought he says: "Ye

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are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God" (Ephesians 2:19). He uses another word, household: "in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit" (verse 22). All these things are wonderful to my mind. 1 Peter 4:17 says: "For the time of having judgment begin from the house of God is come". It is a sorrowful thing if judgment has to begin there, but he was one of them. It does not detract from what I am saying as to the greatness of the people of which the house is formed. There is none like them anywhere; and if that is not attractive to young people, I do not know what can be. And I believe that fits in with Luke 15; it is such people as the prodigal. See how he is clothed! the very best robe, what material! what fashion! Is that not entertaining? There are other things too: those shoes! and that ring too! and then, what musical instruments were there! the music and the dancing; that is to say, it is not a one-sided matter, it is a two-sided matter. The Lord says: "We have piped to you, and ye have not danced" (Luke 7:32). That is a one-sided thing but He has the music and the dancing here. It seems to me to be an adjunct of the gospel, and young people may say, That is my place, where the music and the dancing are; that is the place.

It seems to me these three things together are to consolidate us in our position. There is what God is doing in the gospel, and then there is the more immediate thought of what He is doing for His own pleasure, as the Lord says to His Father, 'what is Mine': "all that is mine is thine" (John 17:10). Then He would say to you, 'It is yours too'. He shares it with us; He loves to do it. He comes into His garden and eats His pleasant fruits.

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GOD'S WITNESS WITHIN US

1 John 5:10; Romans 8:16; 1 Samuel 14:1; 1 Samuel 9:5 - 10

The scriptures read in the New Testament speak of God's witness within us, within believers. The first witness or testimony to us is what is called objective, as is said, indeed, in the same chapter read from in 1 John (verse 6): "It is the Spirit that bears witness"; and again, in Hebrews, the Spirit is witness to us as regards forgiveness: for these scriptures read speak of witness in us, having in view to set us up in spiritual consciousness, self-consciousness; and also to make us spiritually independent, able in self-consciousness to stand on our own feet; being thus, as it were, a spiritual entity, as each angel is in heaven, to be employed by God as congenial material, such as He is entitled to, ready to hand at any time. The uses for which we are intended are great and various, and it is humbling if God has to look about for agencies. At times He is forced to use incongruous agencies for the reason that what is normal fails. It should not be so, but it is so oft-times, and in order to carry on His work, God is obliged to use what is in itself incongruous. He uses an ass for instance; and, indeed, the Lord said as to praise, if those who praised were silent, the stones would cry out. Such is God's power that He can take on agencies for His purpose; He would give us to understand that He is independent in that way. But still, on the other hand, He would give us to understand that He has need of each of us; and in order that we should be available, there is this need, this necessity of spiritual preparedness, involving complete immunity from the demands and influence of the flesh. Isaiah said: "Here am I; send me" (Isaiah 6:8) and immediately he was sent, and again: "There was a man sent from God, his name John" (John 1:6); he was the product of long preparation, but as the time of his shewing to Israel

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arrived, he was ready: he had dwelt in the deserts, his constitution was built up on the negation of flesh, the Spirit having moved him at the earliest possible time. He was built up spiritually, so that as the time arrived of his shewing to Israel, for it is not only that I can serve, but God shews what He can do in the formation of His vessels, he was ready; and the testimony is, "a man sent from God", that is stressed, "his name John"; he came for witness of the light, but he was not the light. He came for witness of the light, and he kept within his limitations: and so, dear brethren, the Lord has need of each of us, but in this formation, so that he can not only use us, but shew us. He loves to call attention to His workmanship; even with Job He challenges the enemy, saying, "Hast thou considered my servant Job?" (Job 1:8); God, as it were, was pleased with His servant so far: nor did Job defeat the divine purpose even in that; for in all the enemy's efforts to force him through terrible calamities to curse his God, he did not do it, but justified God through it. So this matter is of supreme importance, first as to witness in oneself; one has the witness in oneself. God has His own witness from His own point of view, unvaryingly: Christ in heaven and the Spirit here involve an unvarying witness on God's part. It is continuous, a wonderful testimony continued all these centuries and up to this present moment, the witness of God stands. "For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood" (1 John 5:7,8). The Lord Jesus came, we are told, in connection with the water and the blood; He came in that way; indeed, one might say, what would be the object of His coming, were it not for these things, the water and blood? "Not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood". These stand, thank God, in all their efficacy and power, up to the present moment;

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but then there is this witness I have read about: "He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself". Many of us may speak truthfully of the threefold testimony that God renders to us in the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and cannot speak much of the witness in ourselves; what I have in mind is that each may challenge his own heart as to this matter. As you will observe, it is made here contingent on believing on the Son of God. It is a verse of a remarkable chapter, a chapter full of witness, as I have been pointing out; and the end in mind is that believers might be conscious that they have everlasting life; as the apostle says: "These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God" (verse 13). "That ye may know", the word is conscious knowledge, to be conscious that we have eternal life. I am speaking for this, now, dear brethren, this matter of consciousness, that in our experience and testimony, and particularly in our service to God, there should be real body, as one might say, that we might be conscious, that we might have the witness in ourselves. "He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself;" the witness is, "that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son" (verse 11). But the witness in oneself makes that a very real conscious thing: "God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son": that is where it is, untouchable. It is fixed, but fixed in a Person; the fruits of it are thus calculated to establish us, dear brethren, not only in an objective sense in believing the testimony rendered to us, but in a conscious sense. There is real body and feeling in a christian of this kind. And as the Lord is pleased to continue, as time goes on, storm after storm will arise; "wicked men and juggling impostors shall advance in evil, leading and being led astray" (2 Timothy 3:13). They seek to baffle us, so it is all important that we should be on our feet standing out against it, superior to it; for "this is the

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victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith. Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:4,5). Believers reach a point where they are inviolable, as it were. God is always supporting us, but I am speaking now of one built up in spiritual consciousness in Christ and having the witness in himself.

Now Paul, in the epistle to the Romans and other epistles, confirms all that; but in the verse I read in Romans 8, it speaks about the Spirit, not simply witnessing to us in this general way that John speaks of it, but that the Spirit witnesses with our spirits that we are children of God. Think of that experience we can afford ourselves! in the night, in wakeful hours, or in the busy hours of the day, at the desk, or the machine-shop, or the wash-tub, wherever we may be, we have this blessed inwardness of the Spirit witnessing with our spirit that we are God's children. It is as if to say, 'Do not be overcome by that, you are God's children!' The Spirit would bring it in for victory that we are God's children. John enlarges on it: "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God" (1 John 3:1). That is our name: 'children of God'. It is known in heaven, but the Spirit is saying it all the time inwardly: 'You are children of God whatever happens, do not forget that'; what an enlargement follows! what comfort! what assurance! There can be no abnegation of this wonderful relation into which we are brought: the Holy Spirit within us is witnessing with our spirits that it is truly so, we are children of God. And "if children", says the apostle, victoriously, "heirs also: heirs of God, and Christ's joint heirs; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him" (Romans 8:17).

Now, this is all comforting in Romans where we have had to examine our inner regions. You will understand that there are men who examine the heavens with their

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telescopes, and the bowels of the earth with their spades: there are all kinds of scientific persons who deal with material things, of which of course I have nothing to say. But there is this matter of Romans; one may be capable of all these matters physically and yet never once have attempted to look into his own moral being, what he is inwardly. An honest man says: "Search me, O God, and know my heart; prove me, and know my thoughts; and see if there be any grievous way in me" (Psalm 139:23,24). He challenges God to do that: and God does it too, let there be no doubt about it; divine eyes are always looking in, and the divine word operative helps us, alluding no doubt to the priests of old. "For the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" (Hebrew 4:12). That is what He does: it is the word of God; as I allow it to probe me, I become acquainted with the various things which the Spirit opens up to me: "penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart". Think of that process! it is the word of God. No priestly eyes of old ever penetrated in this way; it is all a moral question: "the division of soul and spirit". Where is the scientific man that knows anything about that? Such a man could never touch the spirit and divide it from the soul; nor could he discern the thoughts and intents of man's heart, but the word of God does. The epistle to the Romans teaches us how to make such an analysis within ourselves; for God gives it to us, it goes with the work of God in our souls, the necessity for exploring the unknown, as it were: but it ceases to be the unknown, according to the experience of one man who did it, he emerges triumphantly, he has reached definitely the idea of his mind, and he has got control of it: "I myself with the mind serve God's law"

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(Romans 7:25). In his analysis of his moral being a believer detects much, particularly his spirit and his soul. Some believers, brothers and sisters, are soulless, hard kind of people; one has often wished that a certain man had more soul: if he felt that himself, he would begin to minister to the soul so as to enlarge it that it might be more productive, and it would make him much more attractive to the saints. Mary, the Lord's mother, had gone through something of this kind: she says, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:46,47). And so it is, if we are to be truly worshippers of God, all these component parts have to be understood and visualised in the mind, and each given its place so that the vessel is available at any time for God, whatever it is that He needs us for.

Having said all that, I want to shew examples of it in the Old Testament. What I have been saying so clearly refers to simple christianity; Romans is an elementary epistle and furnishes all this instruction, so that every believer here should know something of it: but if one does not, he has not learned the initial blessings of christianity, and the object of this meeting is that he might know it; that everyone might be directed to this matter so that we become spiritually independent -- that every wind of doctrine does not affect us, that we stand upright in the things that we know. We shall thus have reached self-consciousness in a spiritual sense, supported consciously in the witness, as it says, he has the witness in himself who believes on the Son of God; and again, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God". That is to say, he is now on christian ground consciously, and if John's epistle is pursued, he is victorious in it. What is needed now, dear brethren, is just that, so that we might be overcomers; and, indeed, as I want to shew you, have part in the service of God, which is in mind for every christian. We are left down here

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for formation, but also for the provisional service of God. The present form, in which the service is, is provisional; there are items in it which will not be needed eternally, such as the Lord's supper and other such features which will cease; but there is that which will be continuous. These provisional things or features of the service of God are most important, for God would have us just as we are, actively engaged in His service. He needs every one of us; He has taken us up for it so that we should be vessels of His praise.

Now, I am going to speak a little of His service man-ward in conflict, as seen in Jonathan, a man who developed into a worker with God. God worked without him: God worked before any servant of His ever existed; but He is enlisting His people to work with Him; and Jonathan developed into a worker with God, a very great objective to have before us, dear brethren. You can understand that you are not independent in that, but initially you are; so that God can take you on and make you what He wishes you to be in the great work He is carrying on. I do not know anything one covets more than to be a worker with God; such service enlarges you. Of course God is working in a dispensational field, and He calls us into that. Of Jonathan, as you will observe here, it says: "Now it came to pass upon a day, that Jonathan the son of Saul said unto the young man that bare his armour, Come, and let us go over to the Philistines' garrison, that is on the other side". What he had to say to God before this is not related; nor, indeed, is there much related as to Jonathan's relations with God, whether he was a praying man, but it is obvious that a man who undertakes a work like this, developing into workmanship with God, must have been a man that had to do with God. He must have had some relations with God to take on such a matter as this, on a particular day, which was never to be forgotten in Jonathan's history afterwards; nor is it forgotten in the divine

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calendar, a most important day signalised by the movement of spiritual men of courage and stamina. And what I want to shew is, that he did not tell his father; there is no advertising in a matter of this kind. We are told later on that the people did not know about Jonathan's movement, the people that were with them: it says, "And the people knew not that Jonathan was gone" (1 Samuel 14:3). It was a secret matter between himself and his armour-bearer. Now, dear brethren, this is an important point, what I am saying; for in advertising we lose power, to say the least. The thing will be advertised, the result will become known: even of the Lord Jesus, it is said "he could not be hid" (Mark 7:24). Things would come out: but let them come out in the divine way, not by advertisement, and, moreover, do not take into your confidence unspiritual people; if you secretly take this brother and that brother into your confidence, brothers who may never have been exercised about the matter at all, you simply weaken your position. But there is more here; Jonathan's father was not only an unspiritual man, but he was against the truth; he was displaced in the service of God. Why tell the father? He is the last man to tell. One could say quite a little, and one has said quite a little, about this thought of father and what the idea has become in the service of God. Men who are unconverted have that title and expect to be told; but no spiritual man will tell them. Some of them in this very land, and other lands, were they to work out logically what we profess, would prevent us having a meeting here tonight. Are we to tell them? No, we gain nothing by telling them. We lose by taking into our confidence people that have no exercise about these matters. It is not their matter. It was Saul's matter and the people's matter, you might say; they will know, but not yet, we shall lose power and we cannot afford to, it is too serious. When Saul his father did know, what happened? did he help? No! he hindered! One

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could say quite a little about that too. How religious he became as soon as this matter comes up! this spiritual movement of a man who is spiritually independent. We get Saul mentioned as religious, and the priesthood, and the ark, but no answer from God. Of what value is it to bring a man like that into the secrets from God? God is hiding things from him: why should I tell him? He will not be a worker with God. Will He tell him? No! there is no answer from God, even with his priest and the ark: but the Philistine army is melting away and the noise is increasing. The noise goes on, but Saul is not helping; on the contrary, he forbids anyone to take food. 'You must not take the heavenly food'. How the flesh intrudes on these operations that belong to heavenly people! He well nigh spoilt the victory. He did not know about Jonathan; he says: "Number now, and see who is gone from us" (verse 17). He has not an atom of spiritual discernment. Surely anybody in the camp should know where Jonathan was! The whole of Israel has to be numbered to find out who these men are that have taken on this spiritual operation. We can be led, but we cannot afford to lose spiritual power. That is the point. He did not tell his father and neither did the people know. The obvious thing is to be with God in our service, get our orders from God, learn in His presence what is needed and pursue it. Let others do the same thing, otherwise we shall be found in collusion with unspiritual people who perhaps in their hearts are against the truth, against God. We cannot afford to advertise. Get to the Father in secret, dear brethren; there we acquire understanding and spiritual independency: we become workers with the truth, workers with the Father, workers with God. As the Lord Jesus says in such marvellous language: "The Son can do nothing of himself save whatever he sees the Father doing: for whatever things he does, these things also the Son does in like manner" (John 5:19). The Father shews

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Him what He is doing. It is written so that we may learn to get to the true Father, and get our understanding there, and know what He is doing. Others will come into it, of course; as the people came into the battle. Saul, this official father here, almost spoilt the battle. The land was flowing with honey, the heavenly land, and this official father would shut us up and deprive us of the food that was necessary in our heavenly conflict.

Now, to go on to the finish, in chapter 9, when this same Saul was a younger man and not yet against the truth, he is described as being the son of Kish, "a choice young man ... there was not among the children of Israel a goodlier person than he". There is nothing in the way at this time in his service; moreover the young man that is seen with him on the errand, on the service, is seen under orders. So we are told, "And the asses of Kish Saul's father were lost. And Kish said to Saul his son, Take now one of the servants with thee, and arise, go seek the asses" (verse 3). But they did not find them; the asses were not found. This young man is serving under orders, and, of course, he is serving rightly. He is under orders from Kish, as it were, but he is under Saul, rightly so. Saul is now a young man setting out; he has not yet proved himself, as later, against the truth. He is a goodly young man; there is not a goodlier in Israel; and this young man with him is a type of any of us. What I have in mind is that we may be called to serve with such a person as Saul. It would be disobedience to avoid serving with Saul at this time. It often happens that a spiritual young man is called to serve with one in greater dignity and power, and as the service goes on, the real state of affairs comes to light: that in spite of all his goodliness and height, and that sort of thing, Saul has not found the asses. He has not made one bit of success. It is for me, as a young man, to discern that God is testing me by my

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companionship; the Lord has called me to serve in my local position in relation to someone who is unspiritual. Am I to accept it as a sine qua non that must stand? No: God is testing me. Am I of a different calibre? If I am, it will soon shew itself; let him be there. The asses are not found and Saul is ready to give up the service; it is a lost cause: and, in effect, he says, 'We ourselves will be regarded as lost'; and so they were. Many are like that, engaged in caring for things, and seeking lost souls (a good service) but never finding any. The Lord Jesus says He came "to seek and to save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10): and He never failed: "not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12). He found and he preserved. He said again: "I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house" (Matthew 15:24). He knew well what it was to look for lost persons and He found them. Why am I not finding lost persons? I am a prominent man in the district too: I am not finding any; maybe the meeting will be given up, it is a lost cause. That is not the language of faith. Saul is going to give up the whole matter and return to his father; but this young man had a different mind: so has some young person who has a spark of life in him. What had he? A quarter of a shekel of silver. The young man says, 'No, there is a man of God in this district'; think of giving up what is of God with a man of God in the neighbourhood! Get to the man of God; what will he say? Saul says, 'We have not anything to give him; the bread is all gone in the vessels': sure enough, a man of that kind has nothing; it is a lost cause. What is the cause of the loss? The man in charge is the cause of it: he has nothing in his vessel. This young man Saul, at the very outset of his career is exposed by this young man, this servant. The servant says, "Behold now, there is in this city a man of God, and he is an honourable man". Saul has already failed, and is already disqualified

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for the great office for which he was about to be anointed. The young man says: 'There is a man of God in this city', and that is the point, dear brethren in times of distress when it seems to be a lost cause in any place, let us think of the man of God; he never fails, he can help in this matter. Jesus is supremely that: He stood in the breach. This young man says, "He is an honourable man; all that he saith cometh surely to pass: now let us go thither; peradventure he can shew us our way that we should go". Is there any doubt about this? Not in the young man's mind. He uses the word peradventure, but the tenor of his words shews he is very sure about it. The end is reached too: the concrete thing is the king. One of the greatest possible things to be reached is the anointing of the king. Let us keep it in mind, dear brethren! Leave out Saul for the moment; think of it in the abstract, of the One to whom the thought of king should be applied normally. Jesus is the King. We are approaching that. The young man is leading now, and he says, 'I will give it to the man of God. I have got a quarter of a shekel of silver'. Saul had not anything. We may be obliged to work with a man like Saul, a man who thinks it is a lost cause; but it only brings out what we have, if with God, to meet the situation. So the young man knows there is a man of God close by in the city. How did he know that? Saul did not know it. The spiritual man does know: the Spirit teaches all things; and one who is characteristically of the assembly has eyes to see and ears to hear, and he knows. "Then said Saul to his servant, But, behold, if we go, what shall we bring the man? for the bread is spent in our vessels, and there is not a present to bring to the man of God: what have we? And the servant answered Saul again, and said, Behold, I have here at hand the fourth part of a shekel of silver". It was not a collective matter at all; that is the point, dear brethren; it was a matter of individual wealth. Although you are forced to work

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with a man like this, you have got the thing, and you are going to use it yourself, not share it with Saul. 'I will give it him', he says. I cannot proceed further, but you know the history; the great end was reached, the king was anointed. The man of God was there and it was a most attractive time; there were the invited guests, the young women, the maidens they met, knew all about it, but this man Saul did not know. This young man did, and the great end is reached. So it is with us, if we cultivate this, we shall be used even under difficult circumstances such as these, working with those who are unspiritual. Saul was not used, but this young man was: and victory follows upon it.

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THE FEET OF JESUS

Luke 10:39,42; John 11:32; John 12:3 - 7

I have in mind to speak about the feet of Jesus. The Spirit of God would, I believe, help us to understand the passages that speak of the Lord's feet in the gospels. What He was as seen in the gospels has in mind formation in view of one that is coming, so that we may be superior to and overcomers of the antichristian spirit. The Lord Himself says: "I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not; if another come in his own name, him ye will receive" (John 5:43).

Much is current now in the minds of men as to these people to whom the Lord spoke these words. They are compassionated by many, and rightly; but still it is said of them that they will receive the one who comes in his own name -- a very solemn consideration! They refused Him who came in His Father's name, and the feet of Jesus, as rightly understood in their settings in the gospels and the scriptures in which they are presented, will help us to overcome him whom the unregenerate Jews presently in their own lusts will receive. They will receive him, and it may be well as a background to allude for a moment to the feet of him who is to come in his own name.

What will culminate in him first of all is the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar in his vision. As God handed over authority and rule to the gentiles, He furnished the first gentile monarch with a view of the whole governmental system, of which he was the head and the beginning. The feet were composed of iron and clay, that which is strong and brittle, and the last great empire is marked by strength in its feet, by breaking up in pieces with its feet. We also read of another symbol of these ferocious powers, the last who arises up out of the east, having seven heads and ten horns. It says, "its feet as of a bear" (Revelation 13:2). It is perhaps

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helpful by way of contrast to compare these feet. They are now showing themselves, but it should be understood that what is before our eyes today is simply premonitory and not the real thing, not the actual thing. The antichrist will come, we are told, and he that has understanding or wisdom is called upon to count the number of the beast. It is a matter to be arrived at by understanding the education that God gives us beforehand, so that his number is countable by those who have understanding, those who are taught of God. Daniel speaks of the wise: "And none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand" (chapter 12:10). None of the wicked shall understand, not one of them, however clever or educated. They do not understand, but the wise shall understand, and they shine as the brightness of the expanse, we are told. We want to be among the wise in that sense so that we observe; "And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse" (Daniel 12:3). We observe and learn how to count; that is, that particular number, the number of the beast. So that we can see, if we have learned in any way, that he is not yet visible, nor will he be until He that now lets is taken out of the way. Our very presence here tonight is the evidence that He who now hinders is not yet taken out of the way, evidence of power staying what is antichristian, real power, prayer or whatever it may be, supported by the Spirit of God. Other elements of a governmental nature, too, are operative. I speak thus, dear brethren, so that we may not be deceived or carried away. The Lord quietens his disciples, saying, "But ye will hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not disturbed" (Matthew 24:6). Do not be disturbed; the thing is not immediately. The Lord would have us to be restful and know that God is God. "Be still, and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10). Now when the Lord Jesus' feet are seen in a judicial way, as they are, they are of such quality as to meet what is antichristian in a military

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way. We read of them in the book of Revelation as of fine brass, a very strong metal, refined in the fire. It is strength intensified. That is how He is seen judicially as dealing with the assembly. He addressed Thyatira in this way, as He whose feet are like fine brass; as much as to notify her that she has to do with heaven, not in love any more but in judgment. A most solemn thing, as if the Lord were to notify some one, 'You are not going to do with me in direct love any more! I have made all possible overtures and you have been adamant; you will never have to do with me in that way any more'. That is Thyatira -- Jezebel, a most solemn thing! In the meantime, He casts her into a bed. She will not repent. It is a sad matter, but it is not that she is going to be left. He is coming back to deal with her, for we are told that even the beasts and the ten kings are empowered of God and that He puts it into their hearts to destroy Babylon. God uses one instrumentality against another. He will then turn and use that instrumentality. Nothing would be impaired, but He uses one instrumentality against another in that way. And then the Lord is seen, too, in His covenant and creative rights with feet as pillars of fire -- a remarkable figure as to His feet. He plants one of those pillars, those feet thus described, on the sea, and the other on the land, and cries as a lion roars (Revelation 10:2,3).

All these references, dear brethren, are made now that we might be helped as on the Lord's side, and see how matters are going, the trend, and how they will end up: the final military operation before the millennium is by Christ Himself. He comes out of heaven, and the armies that are in heaven follow Him. It is perhaps the best organised ever seen -- that one army and one General, speaking reverently, to deal with these forces that are current today and which are marshalled by the beast and the false prophet. And then something happens that perhaps has never been known before --

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the general is taken before the army is destroyed. Usually the army is overcome, and then the general, but not in this case. The beast and the false prophet are taken before any battle is fought, and are cast into the lake of fire. That is the end of them.

Now I have made that survey in regard to the feet of our Lord Jesus, as over against the anti-christian feet, and now I would turn to those feet in the gospels. The Lord calls attention to them Himself in the gospel: "Behold my hands and my feet" (Luke 24:39). Surely there is an appeal in that; and the pictures that the gospels present are of persons who have to do with the Lord's feet; that is, persons who value them. "How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that announceth glad tidings, that publisheth peace" (Isaiah 52:7). His were the most beautiful of all on the mountains of this world, where there is no sympathy, nought but what would tire or weary; but His feet retained their beauty, and one lover of Jesus stood behind Him as He lay at table. She stood behind Him weeping. It was an eastern position. He was lying at table so that the feet were available; the position was undoubtedly designed so that the feet were available to a lover of Jesus. It is with a hope that I am speaking to lovers of Jesus tonight that I am bringing forward the subject, which is one for lovers of Christ; and I know that I am speaking to lovers of Christ, but there may be some here who are not lovers of Christ. Those who do love Him will listen to what is being said. She stood behind Him weeping, and she washed His feet with her tears and wiped them with the hairs of her head, and she anointed His feet with myrrh. It is remarkable how a lover of Christ is thus pictured; one of the most beautiful, one of the most evangelical pictures in the whole Scriptures is that of a lover of Christ and how she behaved. It was a love of its kind, for there are kinds of love. This is a love usually found in recently converted

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people. It is a love begotten of grace. It is that kind of love. It is not the love wherewith a father loves his son; that is not begotten of grace; that is the love of the Father for the Son. Luke 7:50 presents one not long in the faith, for the Lord says she had faith, and she had enough to save her. "Thy faith has saved thee". It is a beautiful picture, but it was a love begotten of grace. She loved much because she was forgiven much; that is, it is not love begotten by the beauty of Christ. That would soon follow. The Song of Songs furnish us with love drawn out by the attractiveness and beauty of the Bridegroom; the bride could describe His Person. This love in Luke 7 is not that; it is initial; it is fundamental love. I hope every one, especially the young people, understands fundamental love; that is, your soul is taken up with this kind of love. You love much because you are forgiven much. The greater sense you have of your sins, the more sins you repent of, the greater sense you have that you are forgiven much, the more you will love. It is a very important matter, the foundation of a christian who will be something in the testimony. That is Luke 7.

What I have read is Luke 10, and I have selected Mary of Bethany as occupied with the Lord's feet because I think her attitude would help us. She is an advanced christian; her history is given to us insofar as it is given, to show the progress of a christian in appreciation of Christ; that is to say, refined christianity. That is what marks Mary of Bethany. The woman in Luke 7 is possibly Mary Magdalene; she is more like her, for it was out of Mary of Magdala that the Lord cast seven demons; how appreciative she would be of that; that is, she loved because she was forgiven much; she loved much because she was forgiven much; the Lord turns and looks at her and calls attention to her. Mary of Bethany, however, belongs to a family, a family of three and a headless family. The parents have died. It does not appear that any of them was

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married. Possibly Martha was, but the scripture does not say so. They are viewed as two sisters and a brother, and Mary is presented at the outset, at the first mention of her name, as the one who anointed the Lord and wiped His feet. Now these feet are educational; they are the feet of an Instructor. The feet in chapter 7 are the feet of a Saviour, One who forgives sins, One who dies in order that there should be forgiveness of sins, One who gave Himself: "who himself bore our sins in his body on the tree" (1 Peter 2:24). They are the feet of a Saviour, but here they are the feet of an Instructor; I am sitting at His feet and the whole Person is in my mind. The apostle Paul said of himself that he was brought up at the feet of a great instructor, the feet of Gamaliel. It is not for nothing that he knew how to sit at the feet of an instructor from his early days, even though it were a Gamaliel. The schools now hardly convey the idea of one sitting at the feet of an instructor. There is so much rebellion in the children, and so much irreverence, that the recognition of moral greatness in others, the sense that others know and I do not, is hardly to be noticed. This is a great detriment and is present amongst the young of the Lord's people, too. What I have been is apt to cling to me even as a christian, after I am converted, save as there is deep-rooted self-judgment of the whole matter. Now we get this with Mary of Bethany. She is a person who understands greatness in another. One of the best features in a young person is this: that you understand, you admit and value the measure of superiority in another. You may be sure there are others who are superior to you. We may all take that to heart. She began by sitting at the feet of Jesus and listening to His word. These were the feet of an Instructor. Now I put that to you, dear brethren, for it is a time in which we need instruction, and instruction not from an equal but from a superior, one who knows more than I do, who is more experienced than I am. It is essential that

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this should be taken in because the teaching of the day is modernism, or other such "isms", and they are destructive to the divine order of things. Superiority is one of the great elements in the divine realm; others are superior to you. I have to learn that. There are those superior to me, and I am to learn from them, and to learn from them as I come in contact with them, to humble myself to do so. Now Mary of Bethany, I believe, is the model of that; she brings the Lord's feet into great prominence, the feet of an Instructor. The Lord is constantly called Rabbi, or Teacher, in the gospels; even at the very end on the mount of Olives, one of His disciples said, "Teacher, when then shall these things be?" (Luke 21:7). Mary understood this, and she sat at His feet, the feet of the greatest Instructor. Dear brethren, it is our privilege to do that; and not only did she discern Him, but heaven had called attention to Him. That is another thing in this way. Heaven had called attention to Him, and that helps me greatly because if God is putting one forward to teach us or help His people, He will call attention to him in some way so that he will be in the minds of the saints as God intends him to be. We are in great need of teachers, instructors, or helps; and, if there are any, we want to know them. It is important that we should know them, and if God has qualified a man to help His people, He will call attention to him; something will happen in his history that calls attention to him. God is saying, 'There is some one that will be of help'. He has His own way of doing that, and so on the mount of transfiguration, which is recorded in chapter 9:35, the voice out of the cloud says, "This is my beloved Son: hear him". Peter had rather levelled things. There is very often too much of that, things being applied on the same level, sometimes a levelling up, but it is very solemn to level down. It is not of God at all. The Spirit of God would promote right understanding in measuring; not measuring by ourselves,

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but measuring by Christ. You have to think of a man in relation to Christ; how near is he to Christ. Now Peter had levelled things down. He said, "And let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias" (verse 33); that is, he would put them on the same level, although he mentioned Christ first. That is very common, and heaven says, 'Now that will not do'. Heaven says, "This is my beloved Son"; not Moses or Elijah. They are forgotten. They are brought in, as I may say, miraculously. "But with God all things are possible" (Matthew 19:26). It does not follow that Moses had been raised from the dead for this purpose any more than Samuel was raised from the dead to be brought up before Saul. Elijah never died but Moses did. We do not know where the grave of Moses is; he was buried by Jehovah, but he is brought in on the mount of transfiguration. This is the real Moses. There is no question about it. Peter knows him; John knows him; and James knows him, and they knew Elijah, too; but they are withdrawn. The natural mind in Peter would say, three tabernacles for three great men, but heaven says, 'No, that will not do'. Heaven says, one great Man, and we shall never be right unless that great Man is everything. "Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men" (Ephesians 4:8). We will understand gifts and know how to value them as we understand one great Man. There is no one like Him. "He shall be great", says the angel (Luke 1:32). We understand one great Man, so the voice out of the cloud is: "This is my beloved Son: hear him".

Well now, Mary of Bethany was not on the mount, but we do not need to be just where things are said to know the value of them, for "great the host of the publishers" (Psalm 68:11). If God says anything for His people, the thing will come to the ears of His people. If I have ears, I will hear, for God will see to that. Mary is in entire accord with the voice from the cloud.

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'Here I am in my sister's house; I will sit down and listen to Him', and she was doing it. Well, I have spent a great deal of time on this point, but I feel that it is a great thing to learn how to be quiet, and to look up reverently to a great superior. It is not here the Son of God; it is not here a question of the titles; it is an Instructor, the One that teaches us, the One that is to be heard in teaching. We need to hear Him, and I do not turn aside to speak of Martha, her sister. What she says only brings out more the choice of Mary. The Lord says, "And Mary has chosen the good part, the which shall not be taken from her". These fixed thoughts that the Lord gives expression to are to be known now. "It shall not be taken away". Whatever the people may say about that woman or do to her the Lord is her Protector, and this part she has chosen will not be taken away from her. These meetings in which we learn from the Spirit of God, we love them; we have chosen them; we just love these occasions, and the Lord will say, 'They will not be taken away from you'. I believe it.

Now I go on to John to show the side of power. We are now in a death scene, and in the presence of death what comes into your mind among many other things is the need of power. Death is the very expression of weakness. We are so used to it that we fail to grasp the moral significance of it, the utter weakness. The man Lazarus was four days dead and in the tomb, and Mary moved out of the house. The Jews thought she was going to weep at the tomb, but no, she had a little message from her sister about the Lord Jesus: "The teacher is come and calls thee" (chapter 11:28). There may be some one here tonight; maybe there is a call for some one here tonight, to some sorrowful heart. I see your sorrow. So the Master comes and calls for thee. She arose quickly. It was a message for herself. It does not seem as if Martha spoke loudly, but she brought the message to her, and Mary arose. They

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thought she went to the tomb, but they were mistaken. How often it happens that spiritual people are utterly misunderstood. She went to the Lord Jesus; she answered to the call. It does not say here that such a message was given to Martha or that Jesus said, Go call Mary; but it would appear that it was so. "The Master is come", says Martha. What fine relations existed now between the two sisters. How different from what had been earlier! Thank God for these better relations amongst us! And so she comes, and when she sees Him, she falls at His feet. It is not now sitting. Sitting is the proper posture for learning in quietness, but falling at His feet is an expression of need, and what is the need? it is the need of power. The loved one is in the tomb, and only the power of Christ can take him out of that. She falls at His feet, saying to Him, "Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died". That meant power. He had power to keep him alive; she understood that. But there was more power than that in Jesus. It would be a poor thing, dear brethren, for us if the Lord had only power to keep alive; He has power to make alive. "For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is Son of man. Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth" (John 5:26 - 29). So it was not simply power to keep alive, but to make alive. And that is what this wonderful passage brings out; that the One at whose feet she rightly fell, had power to make alive, to call her brother out of the tomb; and He does. He had said, "Thy brother shall rise again", but now He goes on, and as He sees her weeping and the Jews weeping, He weeps. He is, as it were, watering her sorrow with His tears, and she is to stand by at the grave's mouth and see her brother come up by that voice of power, which he does. So that here is another feature of the

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feet of Jesus; it is a question of His power, power to raise the dead, power to quicken and power to raise the dead from their very graves. It is full of holy stimulation as we fall at His feet in a sense of need and weakness, to come to know the infinite power that is there; that it is not simply that God raises the dead, but Christ raises the dead. He has power to do it. He, Jesus Christ our Lord, was "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead" (Romans 1:4). So it is the Son of God here. She falls at His feet. It is a question of the power of Christ, and then finally in chapter 12, the progress of this saint is brought out, the refinement that I have spoken of.

It is a great occasion, and, dear brethren, what is needed for a great occasion is refinement; not crudeness. We can see in social matters that refinement is necessary for great occasions. There is always a certain etiquette needed for each occasion. This chapter is to bring out the great spiritual occasion, and to show that there were persons equal to it. I should not like to be a crude foreigner in heaven; not that I ever shall be, nor will any one, but it is only to carry the thought forward. You would not like to be crude, a stranger to the code of what is needed for such a place. Think of divine Persons, think of the holy angels, of the myriads of them and the ranks of them, the graded ranks, and then think of the apostles and the prophets! Think of the dignitaries, dear brethren, that we shall be associated with in that great day! We shall want to be there in keeping with the place, each fulfilling his part rightly, and I believe this is the idea. This is a picture, not of heaven, but of a refined feature on earth among the Jewish remnant. The book of Revelation says that they shall be wonderfully instructed. We have one hundred and forty-four thousand in chapter 7, but then we have them in chapter 14 with the Lamb, and they follow Him whithersoever He goes. They are bought from the

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earth; they are refined; they have such keen ears on earth, they can discern the song in heaven, and learn it, too. This group here is entirely outside of what is current in Judaea at that time. They are with Jesus on a great occasion. One of them had been in the grave. Think of the experience of that man; what he could tell you. The Spirit of God draws a veil over it. You do not get any one inquiring, 'Lazarus, what was it like to be in the grave'! The Spirit of God shuts all that out throughout the whole Scripture. Our natural curiosity would like to inquire, but there is no light on this save what is spiritual: "the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead. There therefore they made him a supper, and Martha served" (verses 1,2), as much as to say, This is her finest service. She began with it and now she is so taken up with it and she has no complaint. She complained about others; now she is doing it without any complaint, and you may be sure she is doing it well. "Mary therefore, having taken a pound of ointment of pure nard of great price, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair, and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment". See what a contribution this is, but it is the feet of Jesus I am speaking of, how they come into view in connection with this spiritual moment. They are enhanced, if you understand me. The spirituality of Mary, what she is now, makes the feet, as it were, greater in my eyes; not that they are really greater. We have been saying lately that the ark of the covenant was never any different; it was always the same size, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come" (Hebrews 13:8), and the feet of Jesus were always the feet of Jesus, but if you have spiritual freshness and energy, the truth shines out and becomes amplified, so that they seem more beautiful than ever. It is a question of light and love all centred in this moment, in this person who has made such progress since she sat at the feet of Jesus.

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She is emptying on Him all the ointment; it was not bought for ordinary use; it was kept for this purpose. It was not boxed; it was what she had in herself, as it were, in a refined person, "pure nard of great price", and she anointed His feet with it. The Lord says, "Suffer her to have kept this for the day of my preparation for burial". He is protecting her again. He protected her at the beginning. He said, It "shall not be taken from her", and now this is the worshipping side. The learning side is our reading and ministry meetings. The Lord says, 'They shall not be taken away from you'. I am sure this is the word. Now we are here in assembly in a worship meeting, and the Lord says, "Suffer her to have kept this for the day of my preparation for burial". This is a deliberate matter. She is an intelligent worshipper. She knows the value of what she has kept. She has kept it. She understands that the Lord is going to die. She is intelligent, and let no one complain about her. The Lord says, 'Do not say anything about her'. He protects her, and we may be sure that these meetings are continued to us, so the assembly meetings, too. The Lord will see to it; no one will interfere. How He says to Philadelphia, "Behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee" (Revelation 3:9). I do not know how it is going to work out, but this is one of the promises of Jesus that we can cling to. It is given in connection with another, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (verse 10). That is those who are of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie. That is the idea in Mary here; it is what Christ is to her. Christ is everything to her, and she is like Philadelphia. She is worshipping in the sense that He has this that fills the house with the odour. It is on the feet of Jesus and in her hair, too. She is completely identified with what is in the house.

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POOLS

2 Samuel 2:12 - 16; John 5:1 - 9; John 9:1 - 7

These scriptures are read because they each refer to a pool. The Scriptures afford a wonderful variety of material for the use of those who preach the gospel, and I believe these pools are mentioned, among other things, as furnishing such material.

The first pool refers to sports, and therefore can only be used in a negative way, or by way of contrast. The word "sport" is used; Abner had that in mind.

The second pool, Bethesda, refers to "mercy", as the name signifies; but, as the direct allusion is to an angelic visit "at a certain season", the idea of mercy is a very limited thought here.

The third pool, Siloam, the meaning of which we are given by the Spirit of God, signifies 'sent', that is, obedient; for without obedience the gospel testimony must be ineffective. It is announced for the obedience of faith among all nations. So that the pool of Siloam will be serviceable to stress this thought of obedience.

Now sport has a great place in the world. It is usually regarded as harmless but the devil intends it to be very harmful, if not to physical damage certainly to soul damage. It is a department of the world, as there are others. The newspapers devote a considerable space to it; the universities and all the schools have a great place for it in thought and action. In fact it is in the human mind and heart from the very outset, and the idea comes into evidence in the youngest child. And although it may seem harmless, the enemy of our souls uses this idea of sport to occupy the young to their spiritual damage. I am speaking now more particularly for the young people here, because although you are here now, you may be here under compulsion; you may have come under protest, in your mind at least. Perhaps you would rather be on the cricket field; that thought

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is of the devil. If it is operating in your mind now, it is just to prevent you listening to what is being said. For the devil has come here tonight, you know, and especially in young people who are occupied with such things as sports. He would not come here in a spiritual man or woman, a person who judges himself would not be any medium in which the devil could draw near. But if there are those here who are occupied with these matters of sport the devil has a means of getting into this meeting through you.

Jehovah raised the question with the devil as to Job, and He asked the devil what he thought of him, whether he had considered him. He says, 'I have considered him'. He has considered every child here, especially if you belong to christian parents; he has lost your parents, but he has not lost you; and he is here to keep you from believing what is said. He would occupy you with the football or cricket match that is to be played tomorrow, for he is adept at that sort of thing. He is always on that cricket field, although he is not so much afraid of your being there as when you go to the meeting, or when you are listening to your father in the morning reading. That is when he is afraid of you, and he is here that he may blind your eyes, for he is the god of this world who blinds the eyes of those who do not believe, that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ should not shine for you. Thank God it has shone for most of us, but it has not shone for you, and Satan is exercising himself to keep it from shining unto you, and he will flood your mind with these things. I know well enough what I am saying, because the youthful mind is given to these things.

Well, here are two military leaders, and they are met here at the pool of Gibeon; and Abner proposes sport. He is one of the leaders of God's people; and one has known brethren who do that, too. Here are these twelve men on either side of this pool, twelve of the servants of Saul and twelve of the servants of David

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occupied in this game, this sport. Think of them! It seems to me that the Spirit of God presents sport here in its most dreadful form. Is there no possibility of hate entering into a game of football, for instance? It is possible. It was operating on either side of this pool. Perhaps on the side of Saul's servants more than on the side of the servants of David, but they are both in it. Think of this picture drawn for us by the Spirit of God. It is to appeal to the youth in this room as to these matters. How dreadful is the possible end in view; the very spirit of the world enters into it, hateful and hating one another. The very worst feelings are aroused, not only on the cricket field or football field, but in the pugilistic sports, wrestling and all such things. Young people are gradually drawn into these things which the devil uses to shut out the glory of Christ. Other features are used, of course, for other people, but this feature of sport is used for youth, so that their eyes should be blinded to the glory of God in the face of Jesus, the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of Christ. That is the business of the devil as the god of this world, and he is working on these lines; working outside in the millions into whose hearts the thought of the gospel has not entered once today. He has them. But in this meeting he is occupied with you, that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of Christ should not shine for you. You will be left out in the outer darkness for ever, and there will be no sports in the lake of fire. Do not be infidel about the lake of fire; to do so is to be infidel in regard to God and to Christ and to the work of atonement.

And here, how dreadful, are these twenty-four men, skilled in strength, for it is called the field of strong men. One of them is as swift on foot as a young roe; where is his equal today? I mention him because he is a characteristic man in this matter.

As I said, all I have to say about this pool is negative with a view to warning young people as to these things,

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that the enemy of God and of youth is using them to shut out from your heart and mind the light of the glory of Christ as your Saviour; He gave Himself a ransom for all, everyone, all the athletes, all the boxers, all the jockeys, all these sportsmen are included in that. God's mind is towards them all, as towards the most respectable church-goer in this city. Christ is the one Mediator between God and men, every one of them.

Now I pass on to John 5. This pool is only slightly removed from the pool of Gibeon as to its application in type. Indeed Gibeon became later the great high place; shewing that the sports of the world are not far away from the religious high places of the world. Where dances are held in the week the gospel may be preached on the Sunday. Thank God it is preached, in measure. Some soul may get saved, and if nobody is saved it is still on the principle of mercy. A dear brother was telling me that when he was converted he was in soul trouble and went to a minister of the protestant church and told him that he was in soul trouble. 'Well', he said, 'have you not seen my curate? I have no time for these things'. Yet that man, who had no time for a convicted soul, was on the football field the next day. I am not accusing anybody, I am only indicating to you the relation between these high places and the cricket field or football field.

So what marks this pool of Bethesda is not foreign to the current religious world. Who of us who is conversant with these things is not thankful that there is such a thing as a house of mercy, even if there is only one soul converted in a year? But it is not characteristic of the place. Not like the day of Pentecost when three thousand accepted the word in one preaching. That is mercy. I suppose that was in the open air. How one would like to have heard that Galilean accent of Peter's resounding through the streets of Jerusalem telling "that God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). What power there

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was in those words! Persons quite a long way off may have got blessing. They may not even have stood to listen. But they say, "What shall we do?" (verse 37). They were convicted. How different to this place, visited just "at a certain season" by an angel, and then, although you are the worst case in the place, if you had nobody to put you in the pool, you had to stay in your affliction for another season. How meagre is the thought of mercy in this place. If there is anybody here seeking help for his soul, it is worth considering where you go to get it.

The Lord Jesus finds this man, He knows about him. How suggestive and affecting it is that the Lord knew about that man. He knew how long he had been there and that he had had that affliction for thirty-eight years. It is one of the most touching things in John that He knows persons before they get blessing. Nathanael is an example of that; "Before that Philip called thee, I saw thee" (John 1:48). Someone here may have no interest in sports at all. He may be just someone who likes to be quiet, sitting down or lying down reading a novel instead of going in for sports. You are no better off in reading your novel; indeed you are worse off. But how touching it is when you come to a meeting like this, and the Lord says to you, 'When you were lying in your room reading that novel, I saw you. I saw you before you were asked to come to this meeting'. The Lord would impress everybody here with His perfect knowledge of your way. I do not suggest that Nathanael was doing anything out of the way, but what did he say? "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" He was unbelieving under his fig tree. But the evangelist says "Come and see"; and he came. If anyone is here at such bidding tonight the Lord is intensely interested in you. You have come to hear about Him, and He is here ready to save you. It may be His voice is heard in your soul even now.

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And so the Lord came to this place of five porches. Some say, it does not matter what you are, we are all making for the same end. The devil likes a darkened mind like that; but there is only one door and that door is Jesus. He says "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved" (John 10:9). There is only one door and only one way. So the Lord entered into this place, and He looked around and saw this man lying there; he had been like that for thirty-eight years. Think of the experiences of that man! He could write a book on it, the persons that he had seen come into those porches, and pass out of those porches; some by way of death, others were made well. What a story he could tell! Jesus knew all about it. He says to him, 'You have been here a long time', and the man told the Lord what had happened; and the Lord knew all about that too. He says to him, "Take up thy couch and walk", and he did. The Lord would address some one here in the same way; because it is a question of power, but power governed by direction from Christ. The man did what the Lord told him. We can see the man going off with his couch, superior to his circumstances, but he is not a man that the Lord could trust. He went away knowing little or nothing of Jesus; he was satisfied with the blessing and forgot the Blesser. It is often so. And, as might be expected, he caused persecution to Jesus. He told the Jews about Him merely to satisfy their enquiries. They wanted some accusation against Christ, and they were ready to kill Him on account of this man's report. I do not want to be among that class, I want to speak of Christ, not to those who are His enemies. I want to be wise and harmless; and yet never to lose an evangelical opportunity.

Now in chapter 9 we have the best pool of all. The name signifies 'sent'. It is the realm of obedience; and it is only in this realm that the gospel is really set out and really believed. Here is this man, blind from his birth; and the Lord says, to clear him, "Neither

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hath this man sinned nor his parents". This man is blind that the full thought of God might be set out in him. If I am converted I want to be material in which the full thought of God is set out, because every converted person is intended to be a testimony to the power of God as well as to the love of God. Lazarus is an example; we are not told that he said anything at all, but he was a testimony to the power of God, and many believed on Jesus because of him.

The Lord says a good deal about His own mission before he says anything to the man (verse 4), and in verse 5 He speaks as to the light: I am to be converted in the light; and then in verse 6 it says "Having said these things, he spat on the ground and made mud of the spittle". It is a most touching scene. The word is also used for ointment; but the word here is translated 'mud' because it is a question of the humanity of Christ. He was a real Man. We have to be careful not to say anything derogatory about Jesus. It was the very essence of that Person, all that He was in Deity come into humanity; and that is to be as ointment on the eyes of the blind man. Now he is worse than before. His eyes are not opened by the ointment; but they would never be opened without it. The humanity of Christ would never save us in itself, there must be the death of Jesus. Now you see that man turning away. We do not know how far the pool of Siloam was, but he would look very peculiar. And we must accept that we are peculiar as we are getting light from God; the merely religious people will despise us. They would rather see a man as he used to be than with the mud on his eyes. How did this man find his way? He was more blind than ever. Do not raise any difficulties about that. He did not miss the pool, God would see to that. It is a matter of obedience, a most abhorrent thing to most young people, but that is the point. Jesus came to do the will of God, and He went the whole road involved in Siloam. And this man does not miss it. I do appeal to you, do not hesitate

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at all; this man went and came seeing. He tells the elders "Having gone and washed, I saw". That is historical. When they asked him later, he tells them "I see". If I am a subject of the work of God I can say, 'Look at me, I am changed, I can see. I can name things now. I can name what belongs to God, and I can say I want that'.

One might say much more, this is the most interesting pool of all. In fact I do not know any pool more suggestive of the truth, because it is a question of being sent. It is the key word to the whole of John's gospel, and the key to the Incarnation. Salvation must be on the principle of obedience, you cannot be converted to do your own will; that is what this man accepted, and he was a testimony to Christ until they cast him out. But Jesus found him, and He proceeds to propound greater things to him, for that is another of the key words in John, 'greater things'. He says to him "Dost thou believe on the Son of God? ... he that speaks with thee is he". How appealing that is, the Lord speaking with you. The man says, "I believe, Lord", and he worshipped Him. That man is secured for the Son of God and for the service of God; he is already worshipping.

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SERVICES ENGAGED IN BY A LOCAL ASSEMBLY

1 Corinthians 5:3 - 5; 1 Corinthians 11:17 - 22; 1 Corinthians 14:23 - 25; 2 Corinthians 8:23,24

J.T. What is in mind is to show the services in which the assembly is employed by God as seen in these epistles, that is, as in the Pauline ordering, involving sub-divisions of the assembly or, in other words, local assemblies so-called. The assembly is to be used in the future, as we all know, in a great and universal way as one unit. It is seen coming down from God out of heaven as a city of immense size representing the full divine thought in the sense of administrative services, but at the present time the administrative services of the assembly are in various localities. Each assembly is constituted to act for God, not independently of the others, but still to act authoritatively for God so as to be representative of Him in what is needed during this period of testimony.

In the scriptures read the first service executed by the assembly is that of discipline, the second is celebrating the Lord's supper, then prophetic ministry and then in connection with the administration of the bounty of the saints in material things. These and other services are maintained in the way of testimony in the assembly. The apostle presents the assembly to us in both epistles as the assembly of God in Corinth; that is, the assembly of God in any city or town or place as representative of Him; it is that which He has in view of these needed administrative services. That is what is in mind at this time.

R.S.T. All these services are carried out on an equally high level. You were saying that the assembly is representative of God in a city.

J.T. That is a very important side of the matter. Assembly functioning therefore would exclude all that

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would be unsuitable to the anointing for all such activities or administrative services are in the dignity of the anointing.

H.W. Are they intended to set forth something of God here?

J.T. I think that is obvious. It ought to be before us in coming together in assembly for any of these services that we are representative of God. Sometimes assembly meetings so-called lose their dignity and character because of the introduction of discussion and deliberation and investigation. The assembly is for administration and whatever service it may render it does it in the dignity of the anointing.

H.W. Recognition of that would help us to see the importance of the place the Spirit is given at the beginning of this epistle. Almost the whole of chapter 2 is taken up with the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so. The apostle had led the way in that, because he shows that his services were by the Spirit, as he says, "And my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:4).

P.D. Do you distinguish between coming together in assembly and the whole assembly coming together in one place?

J.T. Yes. The whole assembly coming together in one place is not exactly that it should function in a collective sense, but that it should afford a suitable sphere for prophetic ministry or ministry by the Spirit, so that the point is "The whole assembly", that is, all the saints in the place, so that God has full strength as it were, in what is on hand whereas a sub-division in a locality would come together in assembly to partake of the Lord's supper according to chapter 11. It is not the assembly but the character of the gathering is "in assembly".

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Ques. An assembly meeting for discipline would necessitate all the saints being together from the various sub-divisions, would it not?

J.T. That is what I would understand. In the verses read Paul was writing to the whole assembly and saying, "Ye and my spirit being gathered together". I would take the "ye" there to imply all, but as gathered together. The word assembly is not brought in but it is clearly implied. Is that your thought?

Rem. Yes, I wondered whether you would say any more as to the fact that it is not intended to be a deliberate meeting where discussions take place. All the facts would be thoroughly sifted and arrived at before the assembly meeting was called.

J.T. Yes. So that a mere precise statement of the established facts is all that is needed for the assembly's conscience. The assembly will accept testimony. The whole tenor of Scripture is that it should. It accepts accredited testimony and acts accordingly.

Rem. So that any action that follows the establishment of the matter in the mouth of two or three witnesses becomes authoritative and binding.

J.T. That is what Matthew 18 clearly sets out and it is set out here too, and later Paul alludes directly to that and to Deuteronomy, which lays down as basic in regard to disciplinary matters that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word is established. It makes the position clear and dignified as accredited testimony is presented by those who have examined the matter. The assembly acts on that.

E.S.H. Would you say something about "with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

J.T. That comes in if the brethren are all clear as to the position established in "ye", that is, the saints coming together. "Ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ". These elements are the saints and Paul's spirit and the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a very strong

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position, an irresistible one, one implying judgment that would be effective, for that is what is in mind. A person is to be delivered to Satan. Not that we would apply that in any literal way now but still the principle enters into all discipline. There is an act of God through this instrumentality.

C.S.S. Does coming together in assembly suggest that the individual side is lost sight of entirely?

J.T. You mean the individuals forming the assembly? Yes, it is a collective thought. Matthew 18:17 would show that it is very authoritative and dignified. "Tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly ..." All that is collective.

F.L. Judgment can only be arrived at in the assembly, not by the respective witnesses. Witnesses bring their evidence which would enable the conscience of the assembly to come to a judgment. It is the assembly that comes to a judgment.

J.T. That is right; that is how the thing stands. Judgment is by the assembly.

H.W. Why does the apostle say "and my spirit"? Why not just "the power of our Lord"?

J.T. I suppose the allusion to Paul's spirit in this way would imply the organism underlying all assembly services, but the local assembly acts in relation to what is elsewhere, and in the measure in which the action is known there is support for it. These epistles provide for the general fellowship as well as the local fellowship. A local action is really an action of the whole assembly in principle and carries with it what there is on earth. I think it enlarges the position, bringing into it what God has. Paul's spirit of course would be special, being who he was and having been used to gather and convert the saints at Corinth, but still he represents what there is in a general way.

H.W. I wondered if in our day it would involve that we come together in the light of the apostle's teaching as governed by it?

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J.T. That is good too. It is his spirit. All that a man is would enter into what his spirit is. It alludes, I think, to the organism and the possibility of the Spirit being there.

P.D. Would the spirits of just men enter into it?

J.T. In the sense that Paul was one? Yes, quite so. The spirit of any just man on earth would be with an action such as is contemplated here.

H.W. That would teach us. It would be a very serious thing to be out of accord with such a judgment.

J.T. Indeed. It does away with local independence.

S.W. Would such a judgment be based upon and supported by a specific scripture?

J.T. Scripture may be brought in, and ought to be. No judgment I am sure should be publicly announced without the direct authority of Scripture, or it may be invalid, because after all we may come together and make mistakes. It brings out I think the delicacy of the matter, that the organism underlies it, that is, Paul's spirit representing the organism. His spirit could be present although he was not there literally and bodily. Of course the Lord was there: "The power of our Lord Jesus Christ". So that the position is extremely delicate and solemn and I believe it should impress us with the need of being there in the recognition of the organism and that no element should be active other than operates in the organism normally.

F.W.W. That is what you meant just now when you spoke of the Pauline assemblies. Does it take character from Paul?

J.T. Yes, they contemplated in these epistles as directly his.

F.W.W. I thought so. That is the basis upon which we move today.

J.T. Quite so. It is that or it is nothing. We are moving in the light of these things now in any cases of discipline. It is very solemn, so that we should be impressed with the need of righteousness to the exclusion

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of all other elements because that enters into the holiness of God's house.

P.D. They that are spiritual are to recognise that what he says is the commandment of the Lord.

J.T. That is right, and they will too.

R.S.T. What is involved in the expression "for I have already judged"?

J.T. That of course is apostolic. He accepted the testimony that came to him as true. Ordinarily we might say, How did he know? But he is an apostle and was used of the Lord to set up this economy. He understood its workings perfectly. He himself knew by the testimony presented that the facts were as he states here, for he sets down the facts himself. What he says here should be followed in any case of discipline. The facts are very clearly stated in verses 1 and 2, and it is a good example too, for he is very brief in what he says and yet it is a most heinous sort of thing, a terrible crime. He will not admit of any controversy about it in the assembly; it is there.

S.W. Is it not important that he did not judge as at a distance, but as present in spirit?

J.T. Quite so, very good.

N.K.McL. Would you say a word as to the bearing of the day of the Lord Jesus upon assembly discipline?

J.T. It refers to the judgment. The word 'day' would be suggestive of the time when everything is manifest and clear. Other things would enter into the day of the Lord's coming, but 'the day' would imply perfect clarity as to everything and judgment in it too. What would you say yourself?

N.K.McL. I wondered whether the bearing would be that the rights of the Lord had been infringed in the assembly and everything would come out in connection with those rights in the day of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. The man is fit for that day. He is cleared through discipline. It is to bring out the service which discipline renders to a person disciplined. It constitutes

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him fit for the day of the Lord Jesus, that is, that his spirit should be saved. He would therefore, as we see in the next epistle, as the flesh is destroyed, be ready for restoration. It is complete destruction of the flesh that is in mind, Satan being employed. It is a remarkable state of things. Satan is brought into it.

Rem. He is made to serve God's end.

J.T. Just so. The man is fit for the day of the Lord Jesus. His spirit is saved. It is a very striking statement of what discipline may effect. This is an outstanding case, but still it is the principle of all discipline, that it is not punitive, although Paul does use punitive expressions, but still it is not to destroy the man but to destroy the flesh, to do the best service that could be rendered to him at the time.

F.W.W. Would Job be an example of this?

J.T. The book of Job is intended to unfold to us the principles governing discipline and the end of the Lord. How completely Job was saved in his spirit and personally too!

F.W.W. Satan was used as the tool, was he not?

J.T. Jehovah would have Job come under discipline in this way, and Satan was ready, showing that although he would damage the assembly, as there, God would use him. It is a very fine testimony to the supremacy of God in all circumstances, and that supremacy is what belongs to the assembly too, over all circumstances, that even Satan, although near us, may be turned to good account.

H.W. "That the spirit may be saved" is the object of all this.

J.T. That is what is stated. "... him that has so wrought this; to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh". There is no admission of any possibility of its being wrong, because it is "being such". The matter is definitely so. There is no question about it that it is so.

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Rem. And the witness should be able to state that it is so.

J.T. That is the idea exactly, so that every conscience is carried that it is so.

Rem. In point of practice, you would expect the brother who would be voicing the judgment of the assembly to refer to a scripture that would name the thing as God saw it.

J.T. I am sure that is a right and convicting procedure. It is a definite statement of the facts. The use of Scripture to confirm and guide is certainly to be desired, and should be followed too.

Ques. Would you think it necessary that the facts should be corroborated by a second brother?

J.T. I think it might, but that brings in another matter, that is of confidence. No doubt one should state the facts and another corroborate them, but confidence would accept that the findings stated by the one brother had come from the brethren who had investigated the matter, because they would be all there and silence would give consent; but the less cumbersome the better these things are. There is no need for formalities. If the statement is made plainly, the conscience is carried. All the brethren who investigated the matter would be there, and there would be no doubt about it. But still two witnesses would be right.

F.W.W. Is it important to keep the organism in view?

J.T. I think it is. The brothers and sisters present are all in the thing and have already learnt how to hold themselves bodywise, not as so many units present but bodywise. That comes out more in the Lord's supper but still the organism must be present in the assembly services, even in discipline.

C.S.S. Would you say another word with regard to "the power of our Lord Jesus Christ"? This is God's assembly is it not? It is not exactly the power of God

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that we have in Ephesians for instance. Twice he mentions "our Lord Jesus Christ".

J.T. It is the power of God used mediatorially. The Lord is given His full title in connection with the execution of such matters, implying that they are all in His hands. I think that is about all it could be, to bring in the authority of Christ, for that is most important. The apostle himself represented that.

N.S. Would you think if we were under the hand of the Lord that two or three scriptures would be all that is required on the line of a prophetic word from the Lord to deal with the matter. Sometimes we have a large number of scriptures.

J.T. As far as I know generally disciplinary affairs and judgments are made unduly cumbersome. Scripture of course is always Scripture, but this chapter deals with a very outstanding matter in eight verses. I am not saying that these verses should not be amplified in their application but brevity and dignity I think should mark disciplinary matters. What do you say yourself?

N.S. I want help. If we are together in dependence on the Lord He would give the needed word as you say, in brevity, and sometimes the multiplicity of scriptures referred to does not help in the matter.

F.I. Do you view the organism as confined to the local company, and the local company as moving in view of the whole assembly?

J.T. Yes, only that the thought of the organism is applied to the local assembly too, but without the article preceding it. "Ye are Christ's body" (1 Corinthians 12:27), that is, they were that in character, and that brings the thing in specially to that local position, whilst including by extension the whole assembly on earth; and I think Paul's spirit being present would suggest that it is well to keep that in mind.

F.I. I was thinking that. One was feeling that in the judgment come to in a local assembly it should be

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in view that it should be a judgment which should be accredited by the whole assembly universally.

J.T. Yes, you can see how the rendering of authoritative decisions by brothers alone is contrary to Scripture.

H.W. I wondered if you would go on to that. Do you mean in the care meeting?

J.T. Yes.

H.W. You spoke about the organism being more distinctly connected with the celebration of the Lord's supper.

J.T. It comes in there and we are formally said to be one body in chapter 10. I think it can be readily understood that the features of the assembly itself would come more into evidence when we come to the celebration of the Lord's supper, than it would in chapter 5 which stresses their being gathered together without mentioning the body. "For I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged ..." and then "ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ". It is a question of accuracy and established facts and power in chapter 5, but in chapter 11, beginning indeed with verse 15 of chapter 10, we get the organism; it is represented in the bread. It is a very touching thing that we should correspond with the bread which is the Lord's body, so that it would be a love matter as permeating the saints.

P.D. Would you connect the thought of organism with the body as seen in the loaf?

J.T. Well, it is stated in connection with the loaf. "The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ? Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf" (1 Corinthians 10:16,17). That is what I was alluding to. It is very elementary and in the service that attaches to it, whilst we may have all the light of Scripture as to the body in our minds, we should confine ourselves to what is applicable at that particular time in the

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service, not bring in all that relates to the body which Colossians and Ephesians teach, but confine ourselves to what is applicable at that time; it bears on what we are as together, whether we are there bodywise. It does not say we are the body of Christ; it is one body. It is the idea of unity and affection; although we are many we are one body.

H.W. Is the prominent thought in your mind when you speak about the assembly of God being here in testimony with regard to these various features that there is the setting forth of Christ here in connection with the Lord's supper?

J.T. Yes. I thought these two chapters show how this great service, perhaps the greatest of all the services rendered by the assembly here on earth, is the service of the celebration of the Lord's supper. The apostle formally detaches the Lord's supper from the houses of the saints. Evidently it had been attached to them according to Acts 2, but now it is in the assembly. "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper". It means that their conduct excluded the Lord's supper, but normally it should have been to eat the Lord's supper.

Ques. Is there anything that would interfere with that more than party spirit? It is the great way in which that service would be interrupted by the introduction of what is divisional amongst the saints.

J.T. It seems to be the leading thought in what the apostle says. It is more than what is said in chapter 1:12 -- "I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas". It is more than that here; it is that greatly accentuated. They actually carried divisions and partisan feelings into the assembly. It is more serious because he says "When ye come therefore together into one place, it is not to eat the Lord's supper. For each one in eating takes his own supper before others, and one is hungry and another drinks to excess. Have ye not then houses for eating and drinking? or do ye despise the assembly

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of God, and put to shame them who have not?" It would seem that they were eating in coteries together as professedly gathered in assembly and thus nullifying what they professed to do. It was not the Lord's supper. They were eating in companies and the poor ones who had no houses or no means were left out. It was distressing. You marvel at the length to which partisan feeling can go.

Rem. It may extend to this if it is not judged earlier.

J.T. Just so. It will be carried into the assembly in some way or other, and in that sense will nullify what we come together for, so that we may come together and fail in the object for which we come together.

F.W.W. Would the partisan spirit, the independent spirit, break up the feature of the organism?

J.T. Clearly so. It is the sphere of the devil where persons are eating in several coteries and others not. He has a place in such a condition. They were despising the assembly of God.

H.W. Whilst we are sitting down together in one circle are we in danger of doing this in a spiritual way if there are divisions or discord amongst the saints?

J.T. Yes, we may not be sitting in companies, but inwardly we may be just as divided and even carry feelings of animosity into the assembly.

Ques. Would the allowance of that deprive us of the Lord's presence with us?

J.T. It does. It breaks up the organism and of course there is evil in it too; there is leaven in it. So that we are enjoined to purge out the old leaven, whatever it may be. There is no time to enlarge on any of these subjects but only to bring out how they all fit into the assembly. The matter of prophetic ministry is the next service rendered. The assembly becomes the sphere of it, but it is the whole assembly in a place. "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place ...".

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Ques. Do you mean that the success of prophetic meetings is not only dependent upon the presence of the prophets but the saints together in that character?

J.T. That is a good way to put it and a very important way. It ought to appeal to us to be present at such a meeting; everyone should be present; the more there are the greater will be the power.

H.W. That would show the importance of the opening verse, "Follow after love". Love is to be seen actively working amongst the saints.

J.T. In touching the matter of gift in chapter 12, verse 31, he says, "And yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence". So that the saints themselves are greater than the gift or gifts present. The way of surpassing excellence is in the saints. It is not a question in that statement of the gifts but of the whole assembly. The whole assembly is a sphere of love, the way of surpassing excellence. Think of what it is to God when we all come together actuated by love, the more excellent way! What a sphere there is for gift, how much liberty there is, and the Spirit of God can unfold the mind of God to the gifts.

P.D. Spiritual conditions amongst the saints would make way for the prophetic word.

J.T. Clearly, it involves all the saints according to Acts 2:1, "they were all together in one place". They were there of one accord and the Spirit came in as if to honour that, and that should be in our minds in an assembly meeting.

E.G. Does "all together in one place" provide a better atmosphere for a prophetic word than coming together in separate sub-divisions?

J.T. I am sure it is so. Whatever size a city may be God has His best in all the saints together. That is what He has in the way of public testimony here, and the way that love is brought in in these chapters as making way for gift is very striking. It is delightful to heaven to see the saints all together and in the more

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excellent way, the way of surpassing excellence, that is, the way of love.

H.W. The work of this organism that you spoke of is greatly hampered on account of the conditions we are found in. I was wondering how it worked in these broken days.

J.T. Broken conditions of course interfere. We cannot get all the saints in Adelaide together, nor in any town or city in the world, and hence God has not His best in our meetings now, but still He recognises what there is and according to the Scriptures, all Israel that are present come in for things, only they are in less power because the Lord says to Philadelphia, "Thou hast a little power" (Revelation 3:8).

C.S.S. Does it take in the recognition of what God has set in the assembly?

J.T. That is the idea. Chapter 12 shows that God has set gifts in the assembly; chapters 13 and 14 are to bring out the love. That is the great thing. Love abides and goes through. "And the greater of these is love". It is called the way of surpassing excellence. What a thought that is! that we can furnish that under God's eye in any town. That is the way of love, and then the gifts have scope. Of course the gifts themselves may be hampered in themselves as to who should take part, but what is in mind in the end of chapter 12 and in chapter 13 is the way of love, which includes all the saints.

Ques. Does the effective prophetic ministry depend on what has gone before in connection with discipline and in connection with the breaking of bread?

J.T. I think these things are in their order. If discipline is not attended to and the breaking of bread is not maintained in its true sense, then we cannot expect a ministry according to this chapter, we cannot expect the way of surpassing excellence.

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J.P. You spoke of chapter 10 as representing unity and affection. Would this bring in unity and dependence as to God's mind for His people in this city?

J.T. Very good, that is just what I would say. Love makes the way for it, love in all the saints. I am sure we should pay attention to that. The whole assembly come together in one place and, love being there, there is an opportunity for the Spirit to unfold the mind of God. It is a question of intelligence.

Rem. Where those conditions existed you would expect the Spirit of God to come upon a prophet.

J.T. You would. To go back to Acts 2, the standard is that all the saints are there. You say, it is 120; there may have been others. We do not know, but they are all there; they were there of one accord and in one place; then heaven began to move. They heard a sound. It is fine when you hear a rustling among the brethren. You feel in your spirit that something is going to be said; everyone is aglow and you do hear something because the Holy Spirit has scope. The right conditions are there.

Rem. It is set forth prophetically in many a scripture, but we see in 2 Chronicles 20 how Jehoshaphat called a fast and it says "all Judah stood before the Lord ... then upon Jahaziel ... came the Spirit of the Lord in the midst of the congregation; and he said, Hearken ye, all Judah ..." In principle you would expect that in a prophetic meeting.

J.T. Very good indeed, for "all Judah" there would be the whole kingdom. Many stay at home for a trifle, but really they are interfering with this matter; they are interfering with the organism and they are not functioning when they are not there.

H.W. Many, alas, only look upon the assembly as a place of the celebration of the Lord's supper and do not consider these other important aspects.

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J.T. That is so.

E.W.C. How frequent should such meetings be? Weekly or monthly?

J.T. As far as my experience goes, monthly, and God seems to honour them and they are not allowed to displace other meetings. They ought to be additional to other meetings.

E.K. Are they connected with the thought of the new moon? It says, "Blow the trumpet at the new moon" (Psalm 81:3). Would that suggest that there should be a distinctive note in the meeting for ministry?

J.T. Yes, but it is just a question of the word 'month'; it does not enter into church economy. I think it is properly Jewish. Our economy is weekly. The scope for the services seems to include the week. John 20 would show that the Lord came in on the first day of the week and came in eight days afterwards. What intervened would be the development of what came out of the first incoming of Christ, and then there is another incoming a week afterwards and that seems to set up the principle governing our dispensation. But the month and the new moon are Jewish so that making it monthly would be more a matter of convenience I think. The Lord recognises what we do; He is with us in what we do. "I am with you alway", He says (Matthew 28:20). If we come together, if it is convenient for an additional meeting in a month, the Lord is with us in that. I am not ignoring what you say as to the new moon, but strictly it is an Israelitish symbol I think. The remnant of Israel which had once been lost to view has come back again.

Ques. Do you mean that it is a matter of wisdom rather than principle?

J.T. I think it is a matter of wisdom, the Lord leaving these things to us. He does not tell us to have a reading on Wednesday and a prayer meeting on Monday; He leaves these things. There is latitude in that way in our services.

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Rem. So that if we are not wilful we will soon find what the Lord honours and supports amongst the saints.

J.T. That is just it. One has often suggested that our procedure at such a meeting as this and other meetings may not exactly correspond with what they did at the beginning, but the Lord is manifestly with the brethren and they are not out of keeping with what is mentioned at the beginning. Whether the meetings then took the same form I do not know. It would be questionable.

C.S.S. Do you suggest that all localities should be alive to this matter of coming together in one place for these meetings? Sometimes there does not seem the power for it.

J.T. The power is supposed to be when they come together. It is when we come together that power is realised. In truth it is a matter of faith. The Lord says, "According to your faith, be it unto you" (Matthew 9:29).

N.S. I was going to enquire as to the difference between "whenever ye come together" in verse 26 and "if therefore the whole assembly come together" in verse 23.

J.T. I think the "if" in verse 23 bears out what we are saying. It is left open, as if the Lord would say, 'If you do it, whenever you do it I am with you'. Then verse 26 is enlarging on the matter as to the procedure. "What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together ...". There again it is whenever. It is not a stated time like a weekly meeting. He indicates the order in which the service is to be carried on. But in chapter 11 it says, "When ye come together in assembly". It is not "if" but "when" as if it were a definite thing and practice; that he is dealing with a definite thing that went on amongst them. The "if" and the "whenever" I think suggest a little more openness and elasticity as regards this meeting than what we have stated as regards the Lord's supper. What do you say yourself?

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N.S. I thought that. But I wondered if "whenever" left it open where the whole assembly together in one place is in view.

J.T. We can only act in the light of these things, as we always say, but the Lord is with us. What can anyone say if the Lord is with us? And every christian sensitive in the organism knows when He is there. That is one of the features of the organism that you discern that He is with us.

J.P. We would delight to come together for such occasions to know the presence of God amongst us.

J.T. Just so. It is a question of God at His strength, so to speak, in this passage, that He has the full strength of what He has in the place under His hand and hence the great results in the ministry of prophecy.

F.I. Do you think that a meeting like this would be helpful in times of crisis or difficulty amongst us locally?

J.T. Very much so. 1 Samuel 19 brings that out most strikingly. It was a time of great crisis because Saul was endeavouring to slay David, a terrible state of things. Jonathan saves David and Michal saves David, but then this final attack seems to be irresistible. Saul sends messengers to where David was and when they come, instead of taking David they find the prophets prophesying under the presidency of Samuel. It is the full thought of the thing, and the prophets come under the power of ministry and they do not attack David. Other messengers of Saul come and the same thing happens. It is the power of ministry. Finally Saul himself comes and the same thing happens. That brings out in a most striking manner what prophecy is as meeting a crisis. The enemy is completely defeated.

S.W. Prophetic ministry is not limited to a meeting of this character.

J.T. No indeed, but it ought to enter into a meeting like this.

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Ques. Would we get a greater sense that God is for us in prophetic ministry?

J.T. Yes. You can see how the assembly would be established at Corinth in occurrences like this, the occurrences that are described in verses 24 and 25. "But if all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". It is said of that man that he reports things and he falls down and worships God, which is the great thought. It secures the worship of God, but then he reports things. You can understand how he would go home to his house and say, 'I had a wonderful experience today. I have never been in a company like that. I have been in the Jewish synagogue and the idol house but I went into the christian assembly today and it was a wonderful time'. That is what God has. And that man comes into the benefit of what God has, and now he is reporting it, so that the assembly is enhanced immensely by the power of God expressed in prophetic ministry.

E.B. Is this really the answer to the first chapter in regard to God's assembly? It is the testimony rendered now and God is indeed there.

J.T. Quite so. "That God is indeed amongst you". The man is convicted and would tell the truth.

E.B. All these matters cause us great exercise at the present moment in view of making room for God to come in, which He desires. Every one of us should be greatly concerned to provide these occasions for divine Persons to operate.

J.T. That is the point, that all were present, the whole assembly, and then all prophesying. The idea of prophecy is to be in our minds, not simply teaching, but prophesying.

Ques. Does it mean that every brother should learn to hold himself available on such an occasion?

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J.T. That I think is what is in mind, so that you have, in the procedure described, that if one is speaking, something may be revealed to another sitting by and the one that is speaking is to know that, and that brings out that the organism underlies this, the sensitiveness by which we discern that another has something from God and you sit down immediately to make room for that other.

E.W.C. What would be the character of what is prophetic in such a meeting as that?

J.T. The effect of it on the soul of this man we read about is that he is convicted of all. That is, all that are present are brought into the conviction. It is a collective matter and he is judged of all; they are brought into it. And then "the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". That I think illustrates what the prophetic ministry is. It is bringing God to his conscience so that he worships God as convicted of sin. But all the others convicted him too; they are all in it.

N.K.M. That would include brothers and sisters as well.

J.T. Yes, it is the whole assembly.

F.I. Would you say that although you may get prophetic ministry in our comings together generally, yet in normal conditions there will be more power in a meeting of this description of which we are speaking?

J.T. That is evidently what God had in mind, to bring out what He had in Corinth as over against all else that was there. God was in the assembly and here is a man completely secured for God. He is securing men for Himself and they are worshippers to worship God.

F.I. That is, the meeting primarily is not for the man but for believers. As the result of the prophetic word it showed the power there was there by the man being brought under conviction.

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J.T. I should say that every person present would feel the thing that brought that man to confess his secrets, that every person present would also be searched by the same thing. The others had judged themselves normally but this man had not till now. He is convicted of all and judged of all, which means that we are all judged by the same ministry. You say, 'It searched my soul; I understand that man because it searched my soul'. That is the idea. God comes to us in prophecy and searches the secrets of our hearts like the woman in John 4 who said, He "told me all things I had ever done". That is the thing that she stresses in her testimony to the men.

Ques. Do you think as having gone through this process there would be more bounty available?

J.T. That is the next thing. The subject begins in the first epistle, "Put by at home" (chapter 16:2). You can understand that, when a man is converted like this and he is a worshipper of God, he tells his wife and family, and what happens? They are all converted. If we worship God we should bring all our material things to God too because they are included, they are needed for the service of God. Hence he is to put by at home, and in our verses it is said that the messengers carried this bounty. That is, Titus and others are "messengers of assemblies, Christ's glory".

Rem. There is a peculiar feature then about assembly giving that bears that character.

J.T. It seems to me that is how the giving of the saints will work out. Other things of course affect us but the prophetic word ought to affect us. God has needs in the testimony for such as we have materially, and we should in a balanced way, on the first day of the week, put aside what God has prospered us. That is the way to put it. Here the bounty was actually accumulated and passed through assembly hands, so that these messengers are messengers of assemblies and they are Christ's glory.

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H.W. This thought of glory is very beautiful coming in here. Is it the thought that the messengers are Christ's glory in the assembly?

J.T. I think the immediate reference is to the messengers, but of course it involves the assemblies because they are messengers of the assemblies, but what a thought that a man travelling from Corinth, we will say, to Jerusalem, carrying this money is an expression of Christ's glory. What an attractive thought that is!

H.W. Is it because the bounty of the saints was an expression of what God is?

J.T. Exactly.

F.I. Does the laying aside at home bring into view the family idea, that which is a support in relation to the assembly?

J.T. I would think so. Wife and children are brought into it. From my understanding of it it is a household matter.

Rem. So that the matter of giving is always presented as on the basis of calculation and sobriety. Although the first day of the week is brought in to give the right sentiment to free us, there is no question of mere sentiment.

J.T. It is not mere sentiment, but it is remarkable that it is brought in there. It is not brought in in relation to the Lord's supper but it is brought in in relation to the giving.

Rem. The laying up at home is in relation to how God has prospered you and what you give in relation to the assembly would be on the principle of calculation.

J.T. That is what is stated. A man comes in with his salary on Saturday and takes his wife into account and they talk about matters. They have their expenses to meet. It is a question of how the Lord has prospered him. It would be simple mathematics. But on Lord's Day morning he would discuss the matter again and say, We must be liberal you know; this is the first day of the week; and the Lord was rich and He became

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poor for our sakes that we through His poverty might become rich, so that he would be apt to give a little more. Still the principle of mathematics or counting or weighing comes into it because it is according to the prospering, whether he has made more that week or not. He is supposed to know and give accordingly. Paul is very particular on that line, so that we should budget what we have to give. We know each other and know pretty well what we can do on the principle of counting, so that the budget is to be on that principle, we can do so much.

R.S.T. How would the question of present need bear upon our giving weekly? I mean, you were speaking of budgeting. Most of us do that locally. Some months there is need for more than others. Do you think we take that into account in our giving?

J.T. There ought to be increase. The announcement of a need ought to bring out the excess. We should sacrifice a little more to meet it. Budgeting has that in mind. The need is to be met.

P.D. Would the thought of the first day of the week appeal to the affections of the saints and cause them to respond?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. A spiritual man would refer to that, how the Lord sacrificed everything, not only that He accomplished redemption, but that He was continuous in His love. He sought out the loved ones and looked after them. That is the idea; you continue in the thing.

N.S. The brother conveying the bounty was admitted to a very dignified service.

J.T. It is remarkable how Paul himself had been used in it. It tells us in Romans and in Acts 11 that he himself and Barnabas and now Titus had been used in it. It is no ordinary matter. The glory of Christ is in it.

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THE NEEDS OF A LOCAL ASSEMBLY

Genesis 24:10 - 27; Acts 16:13 - 15

J.T. It is thought that the assembly will come before us in this enquiry, but particularly what is needed in the development of it. In the work of God what is needed at any time is available. As engaged in that work we are dependent upon God, according to what we see in Genesis 24. Such an one as Rebecca was needed, and according to God she is found, she is available. She represents the whole assembly, showing that when the assembly was needed in the ways of God she was available. What was needed in Acts when the work began was available. When the three thousand were converted and added, numbers were needed, and the quality of the number secured is what is needed. The Spirit of God dilates upon it at the end of Acts 2; it was such as was needed, and the Lord added to it. So in chapter 16, Lydia represents material needed at that time. Material needed earlier, after chapter 2, was also available, such as Aeneas at the end of chapter 9, and Dorcas and Cornelius and his company; each that was needed at a particular juncture was available. So at Philippi such material as was needed came into view at once in Lydia; so in Ephesians such material as was needed was immediately in view as the work began. That is what is in mind so that it would bear on our own times and in our own city. If there is a felt need among the brethren to fill out what is necessary for assembly testimony it will be available as we seek it according to the example in Genesis 24.

R.S.T. It is very interesting because it indicates that not only the brethren are taking account of the need in the locality, but the Lord is. He would undertake so that that need is supplied, but it is our part to see that it is available.

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J.T. Yes, and to seek it according to the prescribed way. You can see in Abraham's exercise how exclusive his mind was and how the requirements were narrowed down. All that would be unsuitable is eliminated by the oath he caused his servant to swear in regard to a wife for his son. You are therefore saved from seeking to fill out what is necessary for the testimony by unsuitable material, because it only brings in sorrow later.

W.M. You have said that we should seek for quality, not quantity. Is that so?

J.T. That, I think, is what comes out. Genesis affords examples of fleshly effort, such as Hagar, to secure the divine end. Abraham had to do with that, but here he is very concerned that only the suited one should be brought and if she were not obtainable he would be without her; he would not have a substitute. We are to accept that God is not moving according to our exercises, but if the material be available, then we are assured that God is working with us, that our work is in the Lord.

F.I. That is, material must be kindred.

J.T. That is it. No doubt in this specific case the qualification was particularly as to kindred. Abraham says to his servant, "Put thy hand, I pray thee, under my thigh, and I will make thee swear by Jehovah, the God of the heavens and the God of the earth, that thou take not a wife for my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am dwelling" (Genesis 24:2,3), and so to verse 9. It is very precise, particularly as to the kindred and then that Isaac is not to be taken back to where Abraham came from. The wife was to come to him; that is to say, figuratively, it is the assembly in relation to Christ in heaven, the heavenly Man. So it goes beyond what we get at the beginning of the Acts; it goes on to Paul's side of the truth.

F.W.W. How are we to understand the matter of kindred at the present time? Would it merely be that a certain person was a christian?

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J.T. Do you mean literal marriage, or material for the assembly?

F.W.W. Both, I thought.

J.T. Literal marriage does not enter into this type save as to the principle of kindred, that the wife is to be a sister and that marriage is to be in the Lord. The sisterhood of the divine family begins with Terah and that is what is alluded to here; that is what Abraham alludes to, the sisterhood whence the wife had to be secured. So we get in this chapter, and later in chapter 28 as to Jacob, that the wife is to be a sister; that alludes to the sisterhood in the type of Terah's family. Then when the actual nuptials take place they must be in the Lord. It is more than family; it refers to fellowship; it refers to the authority of Christ. One might be a christian, as we say, that is, a believer to a certain point, but be in evil associations. A marriage with such a one could not be in the Lord.

C.S.S. Have you in mind that "my land" and "my kindred" would speak to us of something on a very high spiritual level such as Colossians 3?

J.T. Well, the last enquiry included both the assembly and literal instances of marriage, and what has been said refers to the latter, but our scripture refers to the assembly, and we have several very exalted references. It is not simply the assembly as secured and seen in Acts 2, but rather the Pauline assembly, involving Christ in heaven and the church here as His counterpart, but in testimony; not Eve, but the church as seen in testimony and loved as in the testimony, for it was as she was brought into Sarah's tent (that is, she took a place of testimony where Israel was) that she was loved. But still it is Christ in heaven that is in mind. Christ in heaven and represented here by His assembly.

Ques. Is that why the servant goes over moral qualities rather than the thought of kindred at the

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start? The person that has these moral qualities turns out to be of the kindred.

J.T. Yes. He inquires as to her kindred, her parentage, after she exhibits the qualities. What is the use of inquiring about kindred unless the qualities are there? The qualities must be there, so that kindred alone is not sufficient. That is how the passage stands, I think. The man said in verse 23, "Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee". That is the point, but it comes in after she had done the work, after she had qualified. Of course all this enters into examination of persons who seek to walk with us. The parentage, the family links are enquired after when the qualities are there. We see some moral qualities.

J.S. Would the qualities be found in Rebecca as being of the same kindred?

J.T. The qualities are found, but the question of kindred only comes up after they appear. It says in verse 15, "And it came to pass before he had ended speaking, that behold, Rebecca came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother; and she had her pitcher upon her shoulder". 'Rebecca' is said to mean a noose, in the sense of captivating by her attractions, something by which you are held. That is one quality. The Spirit, in verses 15 to 21, describes what happened. Then the servant enquires as to her parentage, her family. You get the qualities first and I think that is a great point in regard to persons seeking to walk with us in the truth, in the fellowship, as to whether these moral qualities are in any sense there. If they are there then we may enquire into the family side.

W.H. Do you think that Boaz took account of the qualities in Ruth?

J.T. Quite so, that is another example. He had observed her.

Rem. It was in the servant's mind that these qualities should be there, and he knew what to look for, for all

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the ground is gone over in the earlier part in his prayer to Jehovah.

J.T. We ought not to pass that over. It is to bring out who the Person is who is searching and operating with us. He really represents the Holy Spirit, but it would be that in the sense in which the Spirit operates through our exercises. So he is very beautiful in the way he accepts the obligation under oath, and in verse 10 it says, "And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; now all the treasure of his master was under his hand; and he arose, and went to Aram-naharaim, to the city of Nahor. And he made the camels kneel down outside the city by a well of water". That is, where is he to find a person like this? Surely where such services as are needed will be seen. There is the meeting. We would expect persons who seek to walk in the truth of the assembly to attend, at every opportunity, places of drawing water, and as there the service comes out; they know what to do. "He made the camels kneel down outside the city by a well of water". That is where we shall find such a person as this, such as is needed now. It is a question of me and my camels and our need. The water is there and she will be there if she is in this town. It brings out what we should see in persons intended for assembly building, that they qualify in this way; they are here; they attend the places of drawing water. That is a particular service attaching to the assembly, the use of water.

F.F. So that these qualities would be the result of the gospel being received effectually and in power.

J.T. That is what I should say. The sovereign work of God underlies them, because chapter 22 shows that Rebecca did exist. God in approaching this world of humanity in view of the assembly approaches humanity where such as is needed is to be found, that is, God approached humanity towards the west for the assembly. He will approach the east presently for other reasons,

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but He approached the west. He indicated that that is where she is to be found. The apostle Paul knew that; operating on the principle of the servant of Abraham here he moved westward. In fact he was directed to move westward, directed into Europe. He would understand that the man of Macedonia had allusion to the material needed at that time, but instead of finding the man he found the woman first. God had placed them there in His sovereignty; He is providing for what is needed and Paul went on his search from Jerusalem round about Illyricum. It was a long way from Jerusalem, but it was in search of these qualities.

C.S.S. Is it suggestive that the quality is being tested, the ten camels, the ten shekels and ten days, like Daniel and his companions: "Prove thy servants"(chapter 1:12).

J.T. Yes, it is a matter of responsibility, not twelve, ten. We do not get twelve till we come to Jacob. It is a matter of the assembly in type, not the earthly side of the position, but the assembly proper, and it is a question of the responsibility of the servant. He is the chief servant of Abraham's house and he moves on the principle of ten which is responsibility and he is successful in every detail. He will miss nothing. There is power to secure what he needs. It is what is needed under the oath that he is after. It is absolutely imperative.

H.W. Are you suggesting that one of these moral features would be the readiness to hear what the apostle Paul is saying, attending "to the things spoken by Paul"?

J.T. Yes, there were others there, and doubtless she would listen to them, but she attended to the words spoken by Paul. The Lord opened her heart for that purpose, showing that the Lord is working with him.

E.S.H. Paul seemed to know where he would find her. He goes on the sabbath day outside the gate by the river where it was the custom for prayer to be.

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Should we expect those who are to be suitable material to be at the prayer meeting?

J.T. I think that is right. We should expect to see them at both the prayer meeting and the place of drawing water.

E.S.H. Sometimes you find there is a neglect of the prayer meeting.

J.T. Both the Bible readings and the prayer meetings are implied. That is, the well here corresponds somewhat with what is spoken of in Judges 5:11, "the places of drawing water". That is where assembly material should appear. Whatever is in the place where the well is will come to the well. Hence the man "made the camels kneel down outside the city by a well of water, at the time of the evening, when the women came out to draw water". That is normally what the women would do. It is a subjective idea. There is that instinctive service and where it is current the women are there. It is the subjective side of the assembly. So he causes the camels to kneel down there and the passage goes on in verse 12, "And he said, Jehovah, God of my master Abraham, meet me, I pray thee, with thy blessing this day, and deal kindly with my master Abraham". That is perfectly beautiful in a moral sense. He has placed himself by the well of water and he tells Jehovah that the women come out there. It is a known thing. If Rebecca did not come she would miss this; she would miss this great favour; but she is there. That is the point, I think, to be noticed as to places where water is available, that I am there and may expect to be taken notice of because I am needed for the assembly.

E.K. One of the features that marks Rebecca that is alluded to is that she has a pitcher upon her shoulder. Does that suggest that one comes to what is set forth in the wells of water with a capacity to retain and yet preparedness to carry? One was thinking of Ruth, how

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she could retain what came into her possession and how she could carry it. She carried it home to her mother-in-law.

J.T. I think the idea of a vessel is important. It is where we carry it, and Ruth comes into that category. She was tested as to her measure, the cloak. That is the final vessel that the barley is placed in. A person is tested as to his measure. Here Rebecca qualifies in that feature; she has the vessel where it should be. "And let it come to pass, that the maiden to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher". Then it says that she did this. "And she hasted and let down her pitcher on her hand, and gave him to drink". The woman of Samaria had a vessel but in her case she qualified in that she left that vessel. That kind of element was needed according to John at the moment, and the Lord was there to get it. She qualified spiritually in that she left her waterpot and went back into the city without it, meaning that she learnt that she was herself to be the vessel, and that is another point that is important in this inquiry, that in the place of drawing water the spiritual side is brought out if there is anything spiritual there. If the material is there the Lord will bring it to light, and it was seen in that she left her waterpot and went back to the city. Here the point is that she had her water vessel, her pitcher, where it ought to be and she gracefully let it down at once on being asked to do so and let it down with suitable reverence, because she says, "Drink, my lord". There is subjection there, and that is suited to the assembly which is subjected to Christ; not only that she is subject to Him but she is placed in subjection to Him. That is the qualification which comes out here. If we are dealing with prospective material, if there is no subjection there is no hope. Such a one is not exhibiting assembly material at all. It is in subjection and in gracefully responding to the requirements that one qualifies.

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N.S. Is this feature of going further than is requested particularly suitable to the bride as being in the character of God Himself?

J.T. That is exactly true. God moves beyond. We see in Paul that he was appointed to an office that required that he should deliver the gospel, but he goes beyond that. It is the liberty that is granted to love, to devotedness. And so in Numbers 10 in the ordering of the camp the ark was to be carried by the Kohathites, but love would go further than that. The ark went before to seek out a resting place for Israel, and corresponding to that the Gershonites moved forward ahead of the ordering to prepare a place for the ark as soon as it arrived. They went beyond the prescription. That is to say, in the divine economy, abundant room is made for love. You cannot go too far on that line. Colossians and Ephesians set her where she moves of herself and John sees her coming down from God out of heaven; not sent down but coming down, having the glory of God. She is moving in love. There is no limitation to that.

Ques. Is it remarkable that the servant had that in mind? Although she moves beyond the prescription, it is precisely what he expected her to do. In verse 14 it says, "And let it come to pass, that the maiden to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink, and who will say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also".

J.T. Yes, she went beyond what was needed. You will notice the wording. First of all she calls him 'Lord' and she 'hasted', "and when she had given him enough to drink, she said, I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have drunk enough". There is no restriction at all: "And she hasted and emptied her pitcher into the trough, and ran again to the well to draw water". Look at this running. It reminds us of Mary Magdalene on the first day of the week. She "ran again to the well to draw water; and she drew for all his camels. And

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the man was astonished at her". That is the full thought and more; the thing is there in fulness.

G.M. In the ten camels is there sufficient and adequate provision for the purpose in hand, with regard to the present-day application of the bringing home of the assembly?

J.T. They represent the means of bringing her back to Isaac, and that would mean that there was abundant provision. Is that what you had in mind?

G.M. Yes. I thought you spoke yesterday about being rooted in Him; drawing attention to the fact that Christ was sufficient, and I wondered whether this would keep us to that, that the provision is made from God.

J.T. Provision is made abundantly, and typically the camels are in Christ. It is specially stated that they belonged to Abraham. They were not ordinary camels; they were particularly his property, so that they represent the provision which the servant makes for taking her back. Of course he needed them too. We read in verses 61 - 63 "And Rebecca arose, and her maids, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man. And the servant took Rebecca, and went away. And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country. And Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields toward the beginning of evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming". Not the servant and the bride, but the camels were coming, showing the place they had. It refers to what is in Christ. The whole position is in Christ. There is nothing outside at all, nothing of man.

G.M. I thought too that there is provision for glory and beauty for the decoration of the bride, not only just the everyday requirements, the material requirements, but that of glory and beauty.

J.T. That comes in. You refer now to verse 22. That is the next thing; but this matter of the servant

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being silent is very beautiful. He was astonished at this wonderful work of God. It is a constant miracle. Where genuine material for the assembly comes into evidence, it is a constant miracle. But see to it, under oath so to say, that it is just that, that it is just what is required.

Ques. Is it a reminder that God does abundantly above all that we ask or think?

J.T. That seems to be the way the servant feels. See the effect of it upon him. It says in verse 26, when the matter seems settled in his mind, "And the man stooped, and bowed down before Jehovah, and said, Blessed be Jehovah, God of my master Abraham, who has not withdrawn his loving-kindness and his faithfulness from my master; I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren". That is the next touch. But he is astonished and he is a worshipper; that is, he is genuinely affected by the work of God and so it is that we are brought into such a wonderful work. It is a constant miracle, if we take account of it. Things are coming up constantly, evidencing the work of God, and causing a worshipping spirit in us.

E.B. So that we today know and enjoy some of these features if we are found searching for assembly material both in regard to ourselves as set forth by the servant and then in Rebecca in regard to those enquiring.

J.T. You will see what a delightful position it is to be in. How it should preclude all weariness in the service, "knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord" (1 Corinthians 15:58). We have the assurance that God is operating and that the thing that is needed exists, namely Rebecca, because chapter 22 tells us that she was there. The general idea in the gospel is that the thing sought is there; it is for us to find it and we set out under oath, so to speak, and we move on the principle of the number ten and in the spirit of dependence on God. The issue is sure; the result is certain.

Rem. It says, "Before he had ended speaking".

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J.T. Exactly, that is so.

H.W. It reminds one a little of Peter preaching in the house of Cornelius; the material was all there on that occasion.

J.T. That is what I was thinking at the beginning. I think I remarked on Cornelius. At Perth we were speaking of persons coming in who are able to serve, that is, in each juncture or crisis God strengthens the position in the service. But here the point is material for the actual building, for the actual assembly in the feminine sense chiefly. In Acts 10 Cornelius is just the man; his turn has come. Paul is on the scene; Peter knows it; he instinctively knows that the time had come; and so we come to Aeneas and Tabitha at the end of chapter 9, meaning the local idea, local responsibility. "Rise up, and make thy couch for thyself", that is the kind of man that is needed there. Peter knew it; he makes him a man to make his own bed. That is the idea of a local assembly. Secondly Dorcas is also there making clothes, but now she is made a living soul. That again is a local idea. The next thing is how are the gentiles to come into this? Hence Cornelius. He is the material for the moment, and the Spirit of God gives us a whole long chapter to describe Cornelius and his company and how the Spirit of God seized them, as it were, fell on them, before Peter finished speaking.

H.W. If this material is not coming to light locally, should it be a matter of concern to us?

J.T. That is just the point of this reading. It is an exercise here and in every locality where the saints are and I believe what we are speaking of now governs the matter.

H.W. Your scripture in Genesis would suggest that divine Persons are active on this line and they would draw us into these activities.

J.T. And so the Lord says to Paul, "I have much people in this city" (Acts 18:10). But where are they? They were

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not converted yet, but they were there abstractly and so Rebecca was there somewhere, that is intimated in chapter 22; so the servant is on sure ground in his journey, and so Paul is on sure ground in Corinth; he stayed there eighteen months to get those people. The Lord would say the same thing here; He has much people in this city. We know they are there but how can we approach the matter? This servant set out to get her and he got her. It is a question of whether there is sufficient grace on the part of the brethren in approaching souls.

F.I. It is often the case with us, that we have souls around us but there is too much formality in us in approaching them; whereas if we approached them as this servant approached Rebecca we would receive answers to our questions that would surprise us.

J.T. Just so. There is really too much formality. We had that matter up some time back. There were no Jews brought into view at Philippi and that was a great advantage to the assembly at Philippi. Our meetings are often tied up with legal requirements, judaism. Petty things are brought in to hold things up.

H.W. You spoke about the need of grace in the local company in approaching souls. Would that involve desire and an exercise that there should be something for the comfort of Christ here?

J.T. Yes. Paul is set out as a leader and standard for us next to Christ. How concerned he was lest anyone should be damaged, lest the work of God should be impeded in any person. If God is working we should work on the line of grace and not put any unnecessary obstacles in the way.

H.J.M. It is very remarkable the way in which the Lord addressed the woman at the well of Samaria -- "Give me to drink" (John 4:7). The servant addresses this young woman at the well in the same way.

J.T. The Lord would disarm her of any fear. In approaching her He placed Himself in the position of

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asking from her a drink of water. That would release her from any fear of Him. He was gracious and lowly in His attitude.

E.K. Might I ask, would you view it as an obstacle, such as you have referred to, if two brothers went in company to visit a young sister in a semi-official manner? We have been accustomed in the past to such things being done.

J.T. Do you mean that two brothers would go to her and put questions to her that they should not expect her to answer?

E.K. What I meant was that we are finding help from the Lord, I believe, so that when souls express a desire to identify themselves with us and the movement is not unexpected, the brethren would move in a way that would encourage and not intimidate. That was just what was in mind.

J.T. Well, the point is, is she, or he, manifesting qualifications? The person is attending the meetings; she moves in and out of the brethren's houses, under our eyes, and we see her day in and day out. Has she qualified under our eyes? A formal visit may not be necessary. I believe we make things far too cumbersome, not that I would say it should not be so, if the case is not clear, but if the sister has moved in and out under our eyes for, say, a year, and she is qualifying all the time, well there it is. There are hundreds of witnesses to it. It is hardly necessary for two brothers to visit her. I am suggesting that, not that I am saying anything against it if it is done in a gracious way, but the idea of Rebecca here is that she qualifies before the eyes of Abraham's servant and all he questions her about is her parentage, the family side.

C.S.S. Would you say that it is encouraging when persons do qualify; there is an outflow to God, as a result, of homage and worship to Him?

J.T. Just so. We all know this sister, we have known her for years, we have no question about her

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if we know her in that way. How many visits do you think each one of the three thousand in Jerusalem had by two brothers? I do not think they had any.

H.V. You frequently mention the thought of needed material.

J.T. Yes. We should notice the other features here. See how beautifully she acts; she lets down her pitcher, and calls the servant Lord. How reverential and subject she is. She is ready to do anything. She runs to supply water for him and his camels. What does the man say? He is astonished at her. Where is the need of sending two brothers to her?

E.W.C. She commends herself.

J.T. The commendation is outstanding.

Rem. Do you think if we knew more of movement under the sense of approval and subjection we would be able to place our hands on that which would be delightful to divine Persons as moving in subjection?

J.T. Yes. If you take for instance Peter, or Simon the son of Jonas according to John's view, the Lord names him at once; He names him as He sees him and in the same chapter He names Nathanael as He sees him coming to Him. Well that is the thing; it is the person's movements. The primary thought of naming is in the naming of the animals by Adam. There is no idea of anyone else besides Adam; there is only Adam there to do it. One brother ought to be able to name the evidence of life. The animals pass before him one after another, the lion, the cow, the sheep, the goat, that is the idea. God said, That is right; it is not to be changed. That is the way with assembly material. If the thing is named spiritually that is what it is.

H.W. There are certain moral features marking the clean and unclean animals which would guide the people of God in their selection.

J.T. Exactly. But you can see in the gospels how the Lord named things and persons, particularly in the case of Nathanael. He sat under the fig tree; he

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spoke somewhat reproachfully to Philip about Christ, that was the state he was in, and yet the man had something there, so Philip says, "Come and see" (John 1:47). That is making everything of Nathanael and the thing to be seen is secondary. He is asked to come and see what there is, that is, what there is in this town among the brethren, but while he is coming, he is under observation. That is the principle. He thinks that he is the first thought but in truth he becomes secondary, for after all, if he is coming to see what there is, he is going to be part of it if God is working with him, and he is just an item in it. The Lord sees him coming. Before he says anything about Christ, Christ says something about him; He names him.

N.K.McL. The same thing takes place when the Lord speaks to Ananias about Saul of Tarsus. "Rise up and go into the street which is called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas one by name Saul, he is of Tarsus: for, behold, he is praying, and has seen in a vision a man by name Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he should see" (Acts 9:11,12). Is the same principle coming out there?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord is describing him to Ananias. I suppose that is what we often need in this service we are speaking of now, the service of passing on people seeking to walk with us, whether they are assembly material. The Lord has to help us and it is gracious of Him. The manner of the reception of Saul indicates that the Lord has to go before to enable us to recognise the work of God. He helps us to do it. If there is a defect in any local company in this matter, it may be that we are not quite equal to the passing or naming of the work of God. If we go to the Lord about it He is ready to adjust that.

Ques. Do you mean that there might be some prejudice through what we have heard?

J.T. That was so with Ananias. He says, 'Lord I have heard so-and-so about him', as if the Lord did not

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know, but the Lord says "Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me". And he goes.

F.I. Do you think it would help us in relation to this to take account that heaven is looking on? In Genesis it says that God brought the animals to man to see what he would call them.

J.T. That is the thought. Heaven is watching our proceedings. The Lord knew what Ananias would think and He went before to make sure that he should not damage this new convert. If Ananias went to see Paul in his first mind he would not represent the Lord at all in the matter, and I believe there is much of that amongst us. In dealing with souls we should represent the Lord in what we do.

W.M. In the case of a young lad or girl, the son or daughter of a brother who is walking happily with us, there should be no difficulty when the young people desire to walk with us.

J.T. There need be very little examination. They are going in and out all the time, and if we have not named them already we ought to be ashamed of ourselves, because the evidence of life ought to be named in our minds. I know the person, and when his name is mentioned I am satisfied.

W.H. Would not the Lord encourage such by dropping a handful of purpose for that one?

J.T. Just so. Of course we are not ignoring what the young people ought to manifest as seen in Rebecca.

J.P. Would the giving drink to the ten camels suggest energy perhaps in serving the saints?

J.T. It was quite a bit of work to give drink to ten camels. A camel contains a lot and she gave them enough. You can be sure the camel would not consider her; he would drink all he needed and she supplied it. It was a big job. That is a test of the young people as to whether they have qualified, whether they are ready to do a service of this kind.

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P.D. How are we to be helped to discern the material that is suitable for the assembly?

J.T. That is what we are trying to show. The Spirit of God describes what happened and he mentions these qualifications, these traits of this young person, and then as the work is to be done, the way she does it, and what a burdensome thing it is to draw water for ten camels besides Abraham's servant. She does it well and she shows alacrity. She does not do it slothfully. She made haste to do it.

C.S.S. This is not a cup of cold water, but "until they have drunk enough".

H.W. This line of things would encourage us to take up the prayer of Moses, the man of God -- "Let thy work appear" (Psalm 90:16). That would help us in our localities to be in line with what God is doing.

J.T. Very good. We know the work of God is current and we want to see it. God would show it to us. There is much of it which we have not seen.

N.S. Would you say a little as to the features seen in Lydia on the same line?

J.T. The Spirit mentions that Paul and his company were staying in that city certain days and on the sabbath day they went outside the gate by the river. It is very much like by the well, for it is one of the suggestions of the prosperity of Philippi that it is a tree planted by a river, and the servants of God recognise the river outside the gate "where it was the custom for prayer to be, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had assembled. And a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God, heard". Here it is not a question first of all of service but of hearing. She heard, and the Lord opened her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul. She is the needed element here, to attend to what Paul is saying, not to what anyone else is saying. That is a feature of assembly material. It is a remarkable thing that current opposition

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tends to belittle Paul, specially in matters peculiar to the assembly, whereas what Paul says is really the test today as to the assembly. The Lord deliberately opened her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul. You say, Why should she not listen to Silas too? But the Lord had in His mind that at this juncture people needed to listen to what Paul said. It is the Pauline thought here.

H.V. Was Paul seeking to concentrate their attention on the thought of the assembly? Is that Paul's line?

J.T. That is right. That was the burden of his coming into Europe, to secure assembly material, and it is going on still.

C.S.S. It would take in specially the Pauline epistles.

J.T. Yes, they open it up to us.

C.S.S. Does it work in with the last chapter in this book, the shipwreck?

J.T. Yes, it does so. The book of Acts gives us the whole history of Paul.

Rem. "To attend to the things spoken by Paul". To give it its present day application, it not only represents Paul's line of things but anything the Lord may be emphasising at the moment.

J.T. That is the principle I think entering into this. He had opened her heart to attend to something particular. Here it was the things Paul was saying, so that in chapter 20 the discourse at Troas enlarges on this, that before you break bread you should listen to what Paul has to say. If Lydia were at Troas she would be ready. She would say, 'Do not forget to listen to what Paul says'.

E.K. Was that what the opposition of the enemy was directed against through this female slave with the spirit of Python, in the way she harassed Paul?

J.T. Yes, that is the next thing. It is as if Satan is attacking. As Lydia comes into view he is over against her. The Lord is operating in Lydia's heart to attend

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to what Paul is saying and Satan is working in this woman to discredit, to turn the edge of the truth.

Ques. What is involved in being a seller of purple?

J.T. Well, she was a seller, she was a woman who did things, she was a person of affairs and she made sales. Purple would be a dye. If we follow out the meaning of it in Scripture it would involve suffering.

Rem. It did not prevent her being a worshipper of God.

J.T. That is the idea I think. The people of Europe are business people, they do things, but that does not prevent us belonging to the assembly and serving in it and listening to what Paul says. She had a house too, she is a housekeeper. That is the next thing. She would have them to come into her house. "And she constrained us", the apostle says.

G.M. There is another woman belonging to Thyatira in the second chapter of Revelation who poses as a teacher, Jezebel. Would this show by sharp contrast the difference?

J.T. Quite so. That is an important thought to bring in here, showing how Satan wrought in the assembly at Thyatira. Lydia listened, it says, "And a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, who worshipped God, heard". She had ears to hear and the Lord pursued that and opened her heart to hear what Paul was saying. Mary sat at the Lord's feet and heard what He was saying. She had an ear for everything Christ said. Now the point is what He is saying through Paul, this particular vessel? She wants to hear all that he is saying.

J.S. Do you think it was a very specious attack on the apostle? Satan would attack the very centre of the testimony, as it were, as in the viper on the island. That was a vicious attack.

J.T. Yes. That is in keeping with what we were saying. The enemy would really discredit Paul. "These men are bondmen of the Most High God, who announce

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to you the way of salvation" (chapter 16:17). Satan brings in another thing; he brings it in here to nullify the point of what Paul is saying.

Rem. Something that sounds all right on the face of it.

J.T. On the face of it it is quite all right, but the Lord is stressing what Paul is saying and Satan is saying something else. That is a common way of opposing the truth.

W.R. The subtle entreaties of the relations of Rebecca were calculated to have the same effect upon her.

J.T. Yes, Laban thought to detain her. That is another thing that comes out here: the place that Laban occupies. He is a sort of neutraliser. He has more to say in the house than his father. It is an irregular state of things. But the servant is prompt and definite and overcomes all that. 'Let her speak for herself', he says. Thank God for that! If she is true material for the assembly she will speak for herself and she will make the whole position clear. "I will go", she says.

F.F. So that Lydia herself makes the proposal.

J.T. You mean as to the house.

F.F. She says, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord". She makes the proposal; "Come into my house and abide there".

J.T. Yes, it was "when she had been baptised and her house". That is, she understood the preliminaries, that she should be marked publicly as separate from this world. Do not ask the servants of God into your household if it is not a baptised household, if you are not fit to receive them. It says, "When she had been baptised and her house, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there". It is very fine. It is wholly unbecoming to ask servants of the Lord or the

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saints into one's house if it is worldly, if it is not characteristically a baptised house.

C.S.S. Something for God now.

J.T. She understands the force of baptism, as much as to say, Paul will not come into my house if I am not baptised and my house.

J.P. Do we find in the house of Bethany the dead man Lazarus; that is the place where the Lord was ministered to.

J.T. Just so. The dead man Lazarus was alive; he had been dead. He was dead as regards this world, as a man is who is baptised. We are baptised unto His death.

N.S. Would Lydia's subjection and baptism and beseeching and yet power to constrain be very beautiful features of assembly material?

J.T. I thought that. She corresponds with Rebecca, only she was a person for a particular phase of the assembly, that of listening to Paul and having one's house according to the truth.

N.S. She had power to constrain, although she moves in perfect subjection.

J.T. Love is always ready to be constrained by love. The Lord was constrained at Emmaus.

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THE LORD'S MOVEMENTS IN RELATION TO THE ASSEMBLY

Genesis 24:61 - 67; Revelation 2:1; Revelation 22:16,17

J.T. What is in mind is to call attention to the Lord's early movements in the history of the assembly, and then His movements at the end of the history, and the results. The chapter in Genesis speaks about Isaac. The servant of Abraham was returning with the camels and with Rebecca, but Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi, or literally, he came from coming to that well, meaning that it was an object in his mind. Our attention is thus called to the Spirit, the whole chapter indeed being marked by the Spirit of God typically, as the servant himself who went for Rebecca denotes the action of the Spirit. Rebecca, too, is so ready in the use of water, furnishing it so readily for the servant and his camels: she, also, is marked typically by the Spirit, and it is said of her that she sprang off the camel. Isaac, as culminating the type from that point of view, is seen occupied with the well; as having come to it, he is seen coming from it, as dwelling in the south country. Corresponding with this in the antitype, we have great stress laid on the Holy Spirit, both in the Lord's instructions, as seen in Acts 1, then in the actual coming of the Spirit in Acts 2, and so right on to Stephen, who is pre-eminently marked as a vessel of the Spirit. Beer-lahai-roi, which first came into evidence in regard to Hagar and is the first well mentioned in the Scriptures, would point to the action of the Spirit in grace in relation to the Jews. Isaac, who is an object of attack or persecution by Hagar's son, recognises this well. There is no feeling other than to recognise it as of value. He is coming from it here, so that whatever is developed under the ministry of the twelve at Jerusalem is in view. The Lord, in view of the changed position, says to Saul,

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"Why dost thou persecute me?" (Acts 9:4). So that it was there, a product of the ministry amongst the Jews. Some people thought that the Lord was calling attention to Himself, but it is the assembly, in the Rebecca character, and about to be set up in relation to Christ in heaven in the place of Sarah. The Spirit continues on to mark the position in the chapter (Acts 9:17), and in verse 31 the assemblies themselves are edified and increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 10:19 the Spirit directs Peter, saying He had sent three men to him from Caesarea. Then he takes hold of the gentiles as Peter was preaching the gospel to them (verse 44). In chapter 13 He sends out Barnabas and Saul directly, so that these chapters in the Acts clearly are antitypical of our chapter in Genesis, and show how the Spirit marked the early gospel, and the formation of the assembly, and how the Lord regarded it. That is what is in mind, to show how the Lord regarded what was transpiring. Isaac seems to represent the Lord, not as active in service, but observant, occupied with the means of bringing about the divine will; he is occupied with it as in the well, and presently he sees the result in the camels. He is meditating, not an active Christ, but one observing what is going on, and the result. Paul becomes very active, and goes out to the gentiles. Then in Revelation we have the same thought and the same principle, although in a reduced manner, for there the Spirit is occupied with declension and failure in the assembly, so that the Lord is seen in the verse read, walking in the midst of the seven golden lamps. He is dealing with them, occupied with them actively, and the Spirit is also acting, but in the sense of speaking to the seven assemblies. The Lord speaks to each of them, too, in an authoritative way, and He calls attention to what the Spirit is saying, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies" (Revelation 2:7). Those who have ears to hear, listen to that. It goes on in each assembly,

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what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies. So by looking at these scriptures, we shall see how in the last days the thought of the bride is reached; that is, Rebecca is there again and actively occupied with Christ as she was in the beginning, now apprehending Him as the Root and Offspring of David, thoroughly with the Spirit. That, it seems, is the test in the last moment -- the character of the bride as thoroughly with the Spirit. The Spirit and the bride, as Genesis 24 shows, are in thorough agreement, as the servant and Rebecca, all answering to Christ, for the servant calls Isaac his master at the end of the chapter, and Abraham passes out of view; it is now Isaac.

E.B.McC. Is it your thought that failure comes in between, but that there is full recovery of the church at the end, the bride coming in for the heart of Christ in unison with the Spirit?

J.T. That is in mind in the suggestion of these scriptures, that we might see how the principle remains of the Lord taking part in what is current, the Spirit having His place, and the bride, the assembly, culminating thoroughly together, saying to Christ, "Come". It is a very great result and perhaps we are slow to accept it, that we are actually having part in this matter now.

E.B.McC. Does the thought of the virgin character go right through in Rebecca?

J.T. That is to say, the Spirit and the bride, one espoused, as Paul says, as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rem. Would this link on with the scripture in Romans 8:10, "the Spirit life on account of righteousness"?

J.T. Well, it would. Romans 8 would meet the obligations. The righteous requirement of the law is to be fulfilled in us. That chapter begins with this, and shows how the Spirit operates in the believer to bring about the annulment of the flesh. "The body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness". It is for righteousness.

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"If the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you" (Romans 8:11).

It is to bring out what the Spirit is in a practical way for the accomplishment of righteousness. We are led on, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God", that is where the bride really comes in, but it is the sons of God who form it: "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (verse 14).

W.H.W. Are there two thoughts where it says they followed the man, and the servant took Rebecca and went away?

J.T. That is right, that there are two thoughts. One is that you move. Laban and Rebecca's mother would have hindered Rebecca's leaving for at least ten days, but she is definite, in saying she will go with the man and she followed him. That is the idea of being led by the Spirit. Then he takes her, because the action of the Spirit in procuring the assembly and bringing it to Christ is in mind.

-.W. Did Paul's ministry have the ultimate end in view from the beginning, of presenting her as a chaste virgin to Christ, and having this ultimate thought in his mind, he would work from that view-point?

J.T. I think he did. His service reminds you of John the baptist, but John the apostle tells us that John the baptist rejoiced at the sound of the bridegroom's voice. John the baptist said, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom" (John 3:29); she is a matter of possession, and He is marked off as the bridegroom because of that. Then he says the friend of the bridegroom rejoices in heart because of the bridegroom's voice. It is an important touch in John's gospel as to the bridegroom's voice. It is to be heard, and Paul, I believe, took it up, he grasped the thought of Christ being near to him as in the assembly, and became, as

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you say, qualified for the ministry of the truth regarding it, and of which he became minister. He was worthy of it and qualified for it, so that he had clearly in mind securing the assembly for Christ at the very outset, and his gospel would lay the basis for that, so he says to the Corinthians, "For I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:2). His preaching was of the Son of God. He had Silvanus and Timotheus with him, and although he said he was very particular as to what he knew amongst the Corinthians, yet he preached the Son of God. It seemed as if the ministry had to be definite in that way. Peter is definite, too, and he had his own commission. Paul's ministry would call attention to Christ as attractive; he was the first to preach the Son of God, and he presents Christ in an attractive way.

S.H.B. Would it help and encourage us if we saw more clearly that the Lord's love and the Spirit's love towards the assembly have not been decreased in any way by the failure?

J.T. I think it would. When we come to the second part of our subject, we see how the Lord is seen by John, the prophet now, not as the apostle, so it is not a person of attractiveness that is presented, but a judicial Person, a Person whose affections are bound up, "girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle" (Revelation 1:13), bound up in righteousness because of the conditions He found, but the love is there, ready to burst forth as there is opportunity, and that is how the ministry will be effective in our times, as we see the first presentation of what John says concerning a judicial Personage in his introduction in the book of Revelation. He speaks of the love of Christ, but the book really begins with what he saw, and what he saw was a judicial Personage, but the judicial features of Christ are only to deal with the conditions there alluded to, and when these are dealt with and judged, the love comes out, hence the reciprocal affections between

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Christ and the assembly. It is the bride's response, the Spirit having brought her to it.

W.H.W. Is the suggestion in the first scripture that in being taken in hand by the Spirit, there comes a time when we can move on our own account? Rebecca sprang off the camel, but it had taken her a certain distance.

J.T. That, I think, is seen clearly enough. What ought to be understood first in this chapter is the condition and the movement of Isaac as Christ at the beginning. He has just returned from Beer-lahai-roi, for he was dwelling in the south country, meaning the favourable position, for in the south country everything is favourable, and it says he had gone out to meditate in the fields towards the beginning of the evening, which would mean the Lord in the antitype taking full account of the whole position. Then we are told he lifted up his eyes and saw that camels were coming. It is not presented as if he had sent them, it was a matter of what came into view, the assembly coming into view in another way. Then it says Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac. He saw the camels; she saw Isaac. That is how the matter is presented, and then she sprang off the camel. It is the effect of seeing Isaac under these circumstances; it is not a question of engaging in greater activities, like Joseph coming in at noon from a day's work already begun, but this is a love matter, it is Christ ready for the product of the Spirit, ready to reciprocate in every way, so that the fullest results should be there. In this chapter I think we have a glorious position, which can be followed right through the early chapters of Acts, in connection with all that was transpiring at Jerusalem, and what it was resulting in for Christ, although He was rejected by the Jews.

A.M.H. In Acts 3:26 we read, "To you first God, having raised up his servant, has sent him, blessing you in turning each one of you from your wickedness".

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That, as you might say, refers to the first presentation of Beer-lahai-roi, and as that develops you get the new thing and gradual separation from the judicial element. Is that Rebecca coming into view?

J.T. That is what I thought we might see working out in the early chapters of the Acts. You will see and recognise the glorious contemplation of what is going on amidst the opposition in Jerusalem, the refusal of the truth; and yet what is going on that Christ sees of the early development of Himself, so that He can call it Himself, "Why dost thou persecute me?"

A.M.H. So that the bride John sees is undefiled, and takes form in the assembly?

J.T. Exactly. The bridegroom's voice is there, and He does the speaking. She had not been seen there, but now she is. There is no longer a company of godly Jews, as the remnant of the ancient nation, but a new thing altogether, an entity which Christ can call Himself.

C.H.H. Had you in mind that the bride coming into view is really an answer to the Lord's movements?

J.T. It is visible, as originating in Abraham. The chapter is very full. Abraham drops out of view at the end, he is alluded to as the servant's master, but now Isaac is the master. It means that a new thing has been inaugurated, so that Sarah's tent is occupied by another personage.

C.F.I. The message of the servant was to bring into view the greatness and attractiveness of Isaac.

J.T. That was it. He kept him before Rebecca, showed her all the jewels, indicating what wealth there was, the abundant and unsearchable riches of Christ, for Abraham gave to Isaac all that he had. It was not as in John's gospel where the Father gave the Son everything to be in His hand, that would be for administration, but Isaac possessed everything that Abraham had, he gave him all.

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F.J.F. Is there a movement going on in the earth that the Lord can discern, the bride coming into view as at the beginning?

J.T. I think so. It seems to me that the Lord would say to us, 'You are having to do with all this, do not speak of it as at a distance, it is a matter related to yourselves'; it is a matter in which we have actually a part at the present time, and that gives it a peculiar interest to those who see it.

Ques. What was your thought in connection with Isaac when Rebecca arrived on the camel? She saw Isaac, he saw the camels.

J.T. I suppose the Lord is taking account of what there is, what was provided to carry Rebecca and bring the assembly to Himself. They were primarily Abraham's camels. He had others, but the servant selected those ten. They would equal the power carried down through the Spirit's period from the very beginning. He hovered over the face of the deep, as seen in Genesis, feeling things in that way, and striving with man, operating right down through the ages until He came on Christ. It is the same Spirit operating in Him, but now He is operating in a wonderful way in the persons available to him after Christ went to heaven. I think the Lord would take account of that; but then, in the midst of that Rebecca sees Isaac. She had asked the servant, "Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?" and the man says, "That is my master!" The word 'master' is important in this chapter, for Christ is now the Master, and in that way the assembly is before Him.

A.M.H. Does dwelling in the south country indicate that the disposition and resources of Christ remain the same right through, notwithstanding the external change of circumstances?

J.T. I think so. The position seen in Genesis is favourable. The Lord is free and this is the greatest matter with Him, this matter of the assembly. He is

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constantly active from another point of view, but is always ready to reciprocate the affections of His people; that is the supreme thought with Him, typical here, but the assembly is before Him. Rebecca is very characteristic; she springs off the camel, enquiring who the man is.

C.F.I. What is in mind as to the servant's request in connection with the features that should mark the bride for Isaac, drawing the water, and so on?

J.T. It would show how she would use the Spirit, as typified in the well. He, also, is occupied with a particular well. Rebecca had been accustomed to draw water from this well, but the quantity she drew on this occasion was remarkable, enough for ten camels and the persons as well. For a young woman to draw all that water was an exploit, pointing to what becomes the assembly in the way of service and activity and how much can be done.

F.J.F. It says in Ephesians 4:7, "But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ".

L.D.M. I was thinking of Ephesians 4:16, "From whom the whole body, fitted together, and connected by every joint of supply, according to the working in its measure of each one part, works for itself the increase of the body to its self-building up in love". Does that enter into this in regard of what is going on for Christ?

J.T. Rebecca had power in herself. The word 'sprang' in verse 64 is to be noticed: "she sprang off the camel". She had power in herself, and Ephesians contemplates that the assembly had power in itself, and the Lord is looking for that, and will have it eternally. This is a love scene. The testimony is in mind as implied by Sarah's tent, not in heaven, but the testimony down here, and a love scene is presented first, as it is said, "Christ also loved the assembly".

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C.H.H. Prior to that, it says, "Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac". Does that help?

J.T. It does. The wording implies that it is a love scene on both sides, there is nothing wanting in her; she makes no request for anyone to help her, but she sprang off the camel; it is a matter of the power within.

C.H.H. That would bring out the further enquiry as to who the man is.

J.T. The Lord loves to hear an enquiry as to who He is. Zacchaeus wanted to see Jesus who he was.

C.H.H. The bride in Song of Songs seems particularly able to speak of the bridegroom in detail. Is that a good feature?

J.T. It is indeed. Here she readily responds. She enquires, and springs off the camel. The Spirit, typified in the servant, tells everything to Isaac, "all things that he had done". All that is in the history of the securing of the assembly in the power of the Spirit, and all this enters into the position. How the Lord values us from this point of view, as we are secured in a spiritual way for Him!

Ques. Would 1 Peter 1:8: "Whom, having not seen, ye love" apply here?

J.T. That would enter into this.

Rem. Would the Supper be indicated? The true Isaac brings us into His tent and we reciprocate His love.

J.T. That is right. The tent is the position of the testimony, I think. What is in mind is a love scene, but the assembly is seen in testimony here, not yet as in heaven, but in Sarah's tent; the tent is now the position of the testimony. The Lord is seeing our manner and how we move in the testimony and in this way we are very attractive to Him; the love is not spoken of specifically, but Rebecca is in Sarah's tent in the position of the testimony, where we are now.

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The Lord is leading the brethren to see what is lovable. The Lord loves us as we are occupied in the testimony.

E.B.McC. Would that bring in the Master, as in Psalm 45:11, "he is thy Lord, and worship thou him"?

J.T. It brings in the thought of the Master, because the servant says, "That is my master!"

E.B.McC. Is it connected with the present testimony?

J.T. We see it in the sense of the Lord being Master in Acts 4. Although applied to God, it is the word 'Master', or 'Despot', and is really in view of the testimony.

C.F.I. Were these lovable features seen in the saints when the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest" (Acts 9:5)?

J.T. It was to remind Paul how lovable these people were spiritually. He remembered that later, and was so ashamed to think he should have persecuted such people. To think of having persecuted the assembly was abominable to him, when he knew that the persons were so lovable to Christ.

F.J.F. What is the thought of taking a veil and covering herself?

J.T. The veil is a symbol of Eastern life, suggesting that she was to be for him.

L.D.M. Is she marked by the spirit of the overcomer?

J.T. I think so, although that comes out in the Revelation. Our part is that the end should correspond with the beginning, only the judicial aspect of Christ as seen in Revelation is to clear away from our souls what would hinder the true Rebecca coming to light.

L.D.M. Are you thinking of what she suffered through Laban?

J.T. Just so -- he would have hindered her.

Ques. Does this link on with what Rebecca arrived at in her question, the answer to which was, "That is my master!"?

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J.T. That is what she arrived at. She wanted to know who the man was. She had asked the servant, "Who is the man", and he replied, "That is my master!" He did not say, He is going to be your husband; he identified Isaac as his Master, because the point is, in the antitype, the position of Christ at the moment. Whilst the assembly is His spouse, He is in authority, so that Saul says to Him, "Who art thou, Lord?" He recognised the Lord, and at this juncture in Acts 9, the whole chapter is characterised by the word of the Lord. It is a question of the authority of Christ, not that He is Lord to the assembly exactly, but Lord in a general sense, and each one who forms the assembly must understand that and follow. "Enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do" (Acts 9:6). It is the principle of submission. He is Lord generally, and perhaps most understand that, as did the servant, who connects the Master with himself, and not with Rebecca.

Ques. It says in Ephesians 5:27, "That he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things". What is the thought in that Christ presents it to Himself? Is it to magnify the greatness of the Person?

J.T. It is that. Eve was brought to Adam by Jehovah, we might say presented, but Adam did not present her to himself; God did that, but Christ presents the assembly to Himself. I suppose it points to His deity.

S.H.B. Is this feature of springing from the camel developed amongst us as we hearken to the present ministry of the Spirit as to Christ glorified?

J.T. I think it is you bow; you honour Christ. The servant carefully said "That is my master!" Why did he not connect Isaac with her? It is clearly to bring out the dominance of Christ under these circumstances in the whole dispensation, and hence the Lord's supper.

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Ques. Does that link on with John 16:13, "For he shall not speak from himself"?

J.T. It makes plain that it is the Lord. "God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36). That is to say, the position must be understood by every member of the assembly. Paul had to understand that it is characterised by the lordship of Christ. Saul was persecuting the disciples of the Lord. It is well for Rebecca to understand that this person is Lord.

C.H.H. Does that regulate in divine service? Notwithstanding the love scene, which is of value here, He is to be established in her soul as Lord and Master?

J.T. So the apostle, while speaking to the Corinthians of the espousal of the saints to Christ, could bring in the point of the lordship of Christ.

Ques. At the present moment, is He holding the seven stars in His right hand?

J.T. That is an important point to bring in here, for we have time to look at that. Already allusion has been made to the judicial garb which is seen in chapter 1. John turns round to see the voice which spoke, and says, "I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle: his head and hair white like white wool, as snow; and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like fine brass, as burning in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters; and having in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth; and his countenance as the sun shines in its power" (Revelation 1:12 - 16).

That is the Person that John sees, answering to the word Master, only that in Genesis there is no judicial garb or thought. Here he says to the assembly at Ephesus, "These things says he that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks in the midst of the

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seven golden lamps". That is to say, there is allusion to a certain judgment.

Ques. Would that presentation of Christ fill us with a spirit of reverence which we should always carry with us?

J.T. It certainly does, and it is intended to. It is a judicial picture. The first chapter speaks about a circuit, and about a Judge, who is a great dignitary. Love is pent up to itself there, and the circuit, I suppose, brings out that He is in royal authority, He is free to go about, and He walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps, meaning He has the right to do that, and asks no one's leave, a strong way of asserting that He is a despot, the Master. Are we stronger than He? Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? The Lord's supper is brought in just in that way: the word translated "Lord's" in 1 Corinthians 11:20 is also used in Revelation 1:10. The meaning is significant, indicating absolute power and authority. This is an important thing in the partaking of the Lord's supper.

A.M.H. Is the disregard of the Lord's authority, particularly in relation to the Supper and all that He has indicated as flowing from it, the cause for so many devoted souls amongst us, or outside, not constituting actively part of the bride, having no light of the bride?

J.T. I think that is an important remark. How many there are whom the Lord gets nothing from in the way of affection. The Lord says, "The nine, where are they?" (Luke 17:17). One always feels this when sitting down to the Lord's supper. There are those present, but the Lord is thinking of all the others from whom He obtains nothing, and I am sure it is because of insubjection. The assembly is said to be subjected to Christ, that is the divine thought for her, and it should work out in true subjection on the part of each of us, and how can we disregard the Lord's supper if we love Him?

F.W.W. Is your thought that as accepting the presentation of the Bridegroom, we still should be able to see the judicial garb?

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J.T. I think every right-minded person in the community is equal, at least, to being a policeman, one that keeps down and deals with evil.

F.W.W. I was thinking of the call in Matthew 25:6, "Behold, the bridegroom", and the great stir that followed in the trimming of their torches.

J.T. The judicial side would come in there, because when the matter is finished the Lord is inside, and those outside address Him as Lord, but He says, "Verily I say unto you, I do not know you". Now is the time of the judicial court, the time of adjustment, everybody ought to see today that he is adjusted by the judicial provision made. The Lord has the right to do it; He is the Judge. He has "eyes as a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass" (Revelation 2:18), and He speaks specially to Thyatira in that way. But underneath, the love has power, seeking to adjust us, and therefore there is the addition of the word "walks" in the address to Ephesus where He is active; for He tells Ephesus He is the One "who walks in the midst of the seven golden lamps". He is walking, so that He comes round, and if I have anything to settle, the thing is to have it settled. The time comes when there can be no settlement, only final judgment.

Ques. Do the eyes as a flame of fire suggest something of displeasure to Him?

J.T. I think the expression is to be taken over against dove's eyes, which are eyes of love, but now He is dealing with evil, especially in Thyatira.

W.H.W. Does the thought of adjustment in this chapter have in view the bringing about of comfort? It says in the end of Genesis 24, "Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother".

J.T. He would have us with Him in this place of love. There is a time and place for love, according to Genesis 24. He would have us with Him and near Him too. Why not have matters settled as He moves about in a judicial character? The circuit court would mean

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that the means of adjustment come into every district and I have things settled. The Lord's love is there; He is ready to change His attitude at once, for He says to John, "Fear not". He has nothing against John, and lays His right hand upon him. He was the Living One. That has to happen to us all.

W.H.W. Is this similar to the Lord going into Martha's house in Luke 10 and is it enhanced in John 11:5, where it says that "Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus"?

J.T. In Luke 10:38, it says Martha "received him into her house". She was not true, for she criticised Him when He was inside.

Ques. Have we to take account of Him walking in the assemblies and would that keep us in freshness and in the way?

J.T. It is a very serious matter. He has come into the district, and has come in this garb, and it is an opportunity to have things settled, but suppose they are not settled? The time will come, according to Matthew 25, when the wise virgins go in with the Bridegroom, and when the others return there is no hope of getting in because matters have not been settled.

L.D.M. In James the judge stands before the door.

J.T. Very good.

Ques. What were the first works that the Lord enjoined Ephesus to do?

J.T. That would mean the things which were not beyond restoration. Ephesus had not yet apostatised, so she might come back to the beginning. She had left her first love; she was not to go back to that, but to her first works. In Ephesians God has ordained good works that we should walk in them. We are not to say that it is not possible to walk in these good works that God ordained; we should walk in them. It would require an analysis of the addresses to the seven assemblies to get the full thought of what is before us, but the voice of the Spirit, and what the Spirit is saying to the

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assemblies, is what the Lord brings in in every case. He is making a point of that; do not forget to listen to that. I believe it is what the Spirit is saying, that is seen in the manner of the servant's speech to Rebecca. What the Spirit is saying will instil bridal feelings and bridal affections and bring the saints in bridal character to Christ. He has got with Him a wonderful, responsive vessel, there is that which answers to Rebecca as seen in this chapter of Genesis.

Ques. In that way does the overcomer spring off the camel?

J.T. I think that is how it is. It shows that what the Lord says to each overcomer anticipates an inward state that answers to Him. "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God" (Revelation 3:12). He is of such material as the Lord can use, both for making a pillar and for writing on. Writing material is remarkable material; that is, the overcomer is such as that can be divinely written upon.

Ques. Are things more favourable to the movement of the testimony today than ever they were before?

J.T. I should not like to say 'more' so, but they are very favourable. What we have in Genesis shows the wonderful favour from the beginning, how the Lord was coming to and from the well, and dwelling in a south country, and meditating in the fields; that is, He is wholly there, not engaged in any great undertaking that would divert Him from the love scene, so it is a most favourable position for the working out of love.

Rem. We should learn from the failures.

J.T. Quite so: I do not think we should assume that we are in any greater favour than at the beginning, or as great.

Ques. Would the glory at the end transcend that at the beginning?

J.T. That would mean not what takes place on the earth in testimony here, but the result in the heavenly

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city; that is the greatest expression of glory, but that is a result in the future. I would not like to say that the present time is greater than apostolic times, but the result is seen in the revelation of a heavenly city which includes apostolic service, "the latter glory of this house" (Haggai 2:9). It is the same house. The latter glory would mean the heavenly city.

S.H.B. As to the Holy Spirit speaking to the assemblies, is it universal, or something more local as the assemblies are mentioned?

J.T. I think it is the whole public assembly that is in mind, including Thyatira. The idea would mean the whole public assembly at any given time, or the whole public assembly from Pentecost to the coming of the Lord. The Spirit is always addressing it; it is not what is said to any particular assembly, but what "the Spirit says to the assemblies".

C.F.I. Would that thought be in keeping with the servant saying, "my master"?

J.T. The statements given in chapters 2 and 3 have the idea of His authority: His right to deal with the assembly judicially. The Spirit of God keeps on speaking in relation to that thought; he recognises the Lord's direct words, but he enlarges on them, so that all these meetings we have, where the Spirit has part, are included in this matter of what the Spirit is saying to the assemblies.

S.H.B. Should we not rather welcome the judicial word as setting us more in liberty?

J.T. I think we need the judicial word. It is well to keep before us this judicial garb. He keeps it before us, although he does other things; at the same time He makes it plain that the love is there, and so He says to Philadelphia, "They ... shall know that I have loved thee" (Revelation 3:9). We see Christ in the assembly, a further precious thought, which links on with verse 17 of the last chapter.

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C.F.I. Does that imply the Spirit's work is complete, so that the Spirit and the bride say 'Come'?

J.T. I think it is a great moral victory that, if a few are marked by assembly intelligence, it is there, as the servant of Abraham was; but Rebecca is with him, she wants to see the Lord come into His rights; not that the saints want translation to heaven, but to see Christ in His rights here.

C.H.H. Is the 'Come' that the bride says here, the answer to the mystery?

J.T. I think so. The Spirit has instructed us as to what the Root of David means, and what the offspring of David means. The first is the deity of Christ, stressed in our times. The Spirit always stresses it; also the heirship of Christ which is what is meant in the offspring of David.

Ques. Would you say a word as to the Philadelphian state, as applied to the saints today?

J.T. Philadelphia itself shows some result for Christ, a distinct assembly result. He says to her, "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an opened door", that is an allusion to the assembly character of trustworthiness; "which no one can shut, because thou hast a little power". The Holy Spirit has come to be recognised, and this assembly is marked by a little power; "and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name"; this means loyalty to Christ, "If any one love me, he will keep my word" (John 14:23). She is not sectarian, she does not take on that name, she adheres to the name of Christ. "I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee". That "thee" would be the assembly, it must include all. This is a question of the assembly, and it goes on, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world,

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to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown" (Revelation 3:8 - 11). The word is manifestly applicable to the assembly; the Lord has the assembly in mind.

Rem. Would you say the assembly has a right to that?

J.T. She has been brought to it by the work of the Spirit.

F.W.W. Would the judicial side give character to our meetings for prophetic ministry?

J.T. I think the Lord speaks to us in a judicial way, and it enters into our care meetings, the saints caring for things; discipline and all that is in mind, the full judicial service of the Lord.

Ques. In connection with the Root and Offspring of David, what is the thought in the Root not being seen, whereas the Offspring can be seen.

J.T. The Root would mean Christ's deity, He was David's Root, which was in God.

Ques. "The beginning of the creation of God" (verse 14), is that a stronger thought?

J.T. The idea of the beginning is said to Laodicea, "These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God". The creation is a greater thought than the beginning, because it implies the thought of a Creator.