Pages 1 - 229 -- "Wells and Springs" Notes of Readings in New York and other Ministry, 1942 (Volume 156).

WELLS AND SPRINGS (1)

John 3:27; John 4:1 - 30

J.T. The proposal is to look at the scriptures which treat of springs, or wells, or other water typical of the Spirit, especially in view of freshness in the assembly. Our hope and expectation is that through these meetings God will help us to a clearer apprehension of Christ and the assembly. The apostle says in Ephesians 5, "but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". He had been speaking of natural family relationships, but the subject of Christ and the assembly was the main thought, and so it is throughout Scripture. Christ and the assembly stand out as the theme -- especially now, in view of the translation of the saints and the marriage of the Lamb. God would help us to have a clearer view of this great matter, and help that those who do not recognise the greatness of it may be drawn into it as having part in it. It is thought that linking on the idea of springs with the subject will lead to a clearer apprehension of the freshness that is essential to assembly functions.

There can be no question of the freshness that is in Christ. He remains what He has always been since He became Man. The voice of the Bridegroom is there, and the feelings of the Bridegroom, and they remain even in heavenly glory. In the type, He comes out of His chamber, we are told, the sun representing Him, and rejoices as a strong man to run the race (Psalm 19). There is no question as to freshness and vigour with Him, but there is a very great question as to these things with those of us who form the assembly. Even if we apprehend the truth in any measure, we are apt

to think of it in a merely academic way, instead of being conscious of having part in it; participating in the joy of it.

John 3 affords us a view of Christ as the Bridegroom, John the baptist saying that he is the friend of the Bridegroom, who rejoices to hear His voice. This section will help us to begin with what is peculiarly applicable to our times, in accord with John's ministry; John the baptist being a model in the sense of appreciation of Christ, and disallowance of himself, in order that Christ may be everything and in all. He brings Christ in as the Bridegroom very noticeably, and then proceeds to enlarge upon the greatness of Christ's Person, leading up to the statement that the Father loves the Son and gives all things to be in His hand. Then we have this well-known passage in chapter 4, affording us a clue as to how the bride comes into view, from the standpoint of John's gospel. The woman undoubtedly may be taken to represent how the bride comes into view. A most disreputable person actually, yet she is brought into complete, and you might say, intelligent appreciation of Christ. He is now the one Man that displaces all the others, of whom there were six -- five, and the one she then had, which was not her husband -- and there can be no question about her disallowance of him at once. It is evident that we get deliverance from all that is corrupt by coming into contact with Christ, and He becomes all to us. The woman immediately takes an interest in His affairs and speaks to others about Him, and secures others for Him. That is, I think, a good platform for us to begin with in this inquiry.

A.N.W. John says that the Bridegroom must increase. Is it in the bride that he visualises it?

J.T. We cannot say that John understood the assembly; but she is Christ's fulness. You can hardly get a greater concrete expression of the idea of increase as regards Christ than in the assembly which is said to

be His fulness. God "gave him ... head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" (Ephesians 1:22, 23); it is very wonderful that we have part in that. The matter of the bride and Bridegroom is introduced, not in a mere doctrinal way, but by one marked by spiritual feelings; one to whom Christ is becoming all. "John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven. Ye yourselves bear me witness that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am sent before him. He that has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices in heart because of the voice of the bridegroom; this my joy then is fulfilled" (verses 27 - 29). It seems to me that it is suitable that the introduction to the matter of the Bridegroom and the bride should be through one who is full of it, as the Baptist is.

C.A.M. Why is it said in verse 23, "there was a great deal of water there"?

J.T. John used it for baptism, which would point to death. In the next chapter it is said that the Lord's disciples were baptising, but He Himself was not doing it. He was not making Himself a Centre by any formal sacrament, but would become a Centre, because of what He was personally, and the woman in John 4 represents how He becomes everything to christians. As to the water at Aenon, quantity is stressed. Quantity is not the point in chapter 4.

C.A.M. I thought the quantity might suggest that all had disappeared in death, making way for this living suggestion about the Bridegroom and the bride.

J.T. Well, yes -- if they all had disappeared. One is very doubtful of that, because of what was going on. "There was therefore a reasoning of the disciples of John with a Jew about purification", John 3:25. In view of that does this allusion to the quantity of water and John's baptism continuing, reflect favourably on

John? It is not a question of the quantity of water, not that he is making anything of it, but the Spirit of God mentions it; John was baptising there on this account. The question is whether the baptism of John really had not lost its force, because John the evangelist brings Christ in in ministry before the time mentioned in the synoptic gospels. They say that the Lord waited until John was cast into prison before He began. In John's gospel the Lord began before this, and morally He superseded John. John himself attested that in saying, "He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me" (chapter 1: 15). According to chapter 1 John had stopped; he "stood", and his disciples began to leave him. His service had already accomplished its purpose; but he is going on with it. John, however, appears in his true and glorious character in that he repudiates any thought of rivalry with Christ; he disappears here with flying colours: saying, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (chapter 3: 30). That is the end of John, because the Person is on the ground now who is to take up everything for God. God had not allowed the removal of John. John carried on until that happened; but the Lord had entered on His service. A divine Person need not wait upon any formal matters in the government of God. I think it is to give the right place to Christ in our own times. He cannot be bound by formal or legal ties.

C.A.M. It seems to emphasise what John says: "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven".

J.T. That is right. I suppose he is alluding to what came out of heaven. The Lord was baptised at the Jordan; heaven owned Him then; and so in chapter 10 of this gospel, the Lord as rejected by the Jews comes to where John was baptising (chapter 1: 28); meaning, I think, that He passed over what took place at Aenon.

W.B-w. "He that has the bride is the bridegroom" -- do you think that was prophetic? John was a prophet.

J.T. Yes. It is a statement that carries its own weight with it. The Old Testament spoke of the Bridegroom, but who is the bride to be? The Bridegroom is in evidence here, but there is nothing said about the bride, except that the Bridegroom has her; she belongs to Him. But where is she? How does she come into evidence? I think John 4 answers that. In Matthew we have the Bridegroom mentioned, and we have the marriage mentioned, but where is the bride? That is a challenge to each of our hearts. How does she come in? Does she come in through baptism or through the Lord's supper, or through an apprehension of Christ in His greatness; a well of water in her springing up into everlasting life? That is the point we want to get to.

W.B-w. Is it not true that she comes in by baptism in one aspect of the truth?

J.T. Well, that may be true on the public side, but how many are baptised that are not responding at all? The real point is the well of water springing up into everlasting life; a living state of things. What kind of a bride can there be without a living state of things?

J.T.Jr. Does John the baptist suggest the thought in himself first as leaping with joy (Luke 1:41), and then his joy fulfilled (John 3:29)?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. John the evangelist shows him to greater advantage than any other of the gospels, although Luke speaks of him as leaping for joy before he was born, at the voice of the mother of Christ. In John 3 he is an intelligent man, appreciative of the greatness of Christ. He is superseded, and yet he says his joy is fulfilled, because he hears the voice of the Bridegroom. Every one of us has to inquire, Am I ready for that? Are my affections stimulated by the thought of it?

F.S.C. Is John a forerunner of what should mark the assembly?

J.T. Well, he is an example for us. He makes nothing of his own distinction; he makes everything of Christ; and now what is nearest to the Lord's heart is the bride, and the Lord's voice is the voice of the Bridegroom to John the baptist. He says, "my joy then is fulfilled".

W.G.T. How far did Johns thoughts go when he said, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom"?

J.T. It is a statement that conveys its own meaning to anyone who has an ear to hear. It is obvious that the possessor of the bride is the bridegroom. There is no question as to the Bridegroom here. John hears His voice, but where is the bride? And that is the question today. There is no doubt about the Lord's voice in the ministry, but where is the bride? Where are those who are stimulated in affection at the thought of it?

W.G.T. When John's disciples followed Jesus, was there some suggestion that He was seeking the bride?

J.T. Well, there was something there the two disciples wished to be taught, and they wished to know where the Lord dwelt; then as Peter was brought to Him the Lord said, having the assembly in mind, that he should be called Cephas; assembly material was coming into view. John's gospel is to make much of Christ. The way to bring in the saints as the bride, is to make much of Christ. If you make much of Christ you are sure to make much of the saints. If I do not make much of them, I cannot claim to love Christ, the Bridegroom, because the saints are His bride.

W.B-w. Do you think the apostle John got an impression here about the bride? In the end of the book of Revelation, he refers to the bride.

J.T. Yes. You can see how in the last days, these great points are stressed in his ministry, and the Lord is stressing them now. John quotes John the Baptist here. In Revelation, John himself brings in the bride

in the most concrete way, and sees her finally coming down adorned as such for her Husband; to whom she says, "Come". So that the question as to where the bride may be, is now before us; before everyone who professes to believe in the Lord Jesus. Have I part in it? Am I moved by the very thought of the Bridegroom? Am I stimulated?

A.A.T. In the New Translation the word fountain, in chapter 4, is used several times instead of well.

J.T. The fountain is a spring. The note at the bottom of the page, referring to verse 6, says, "Another word is used for the well, verse 11, in which the spring was; and this word, translated fountain is used for what springs up as life in the renewed man". That shows that the word fountain alludes to a spring; and that is why the chapter is before us, it is the leading thought in the New Testament, which we shall see greatly unfolded in the types of the Old. It is a spring. The Lord says that the living water which He gives, becomes in the believer a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. That is where the bride begins to come into view. The thought of eternal life must underlie it, because clearly, we must be in a living state of things for marital relation. Those forming the assembly are living people.

J.H.E. Do we see that in Achsah? She asked for the upper and nether springs.

J.T. That is right. The basis is here, in the Lord's teaching ministered to this woman. John the baptist's word that his joy is fulfilled, even at the hearing of the voice of the Bridegroom, indicates that the bride is coming into view in this chapter. There is a word for everyone of us as to whether we have heard His voice, and whether we are responding. John is a model for us.

Ques. "One man among a thousand have I found, but a woman among all those have I not found", Ecclesiastes 7:28. Would that bear on what you have before you?

J.T. Yes. Each of us is challenged as to whether he possesses the qualities of the bride. In Proverbs 31 we have the woman portrayed before our eyes as one who cares for the interests of her husband in his absence. That I think comes out in this woman in chapter 4; she began immediately to look after the interests of Christ; she testified to the men; He is especially thinking of them. He is "head of every man". The woman had a very sinful history and this includes each of us, which we have to confess; but when we get to the Eve side of the assembly there is no sinful history. She came out of Adam and Adam had no sin then. We shall come to it, I think. This matter of sinful history we all have to face, while we are down here; but as glorified above there is no past sinful history at all; it is all gone, never to be revived or thought of. You cannot imagine that the assembly, the bride of Christ, will have reminiscences of sin in this world. It is impossible to think of it.

Rem. John the baptist recognised Christ as "He ... who baptises with the Holy Spirit".

J.T. That is what the Lord Jesus would do. John says, "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God", John 1:34. He had not yet come to the thought of the Bridegroom. The Son of God is his first great testimony; now he speaks of the Bridegroom. In baptising with the Holy Spirit the Lord Jesus secures every one of us for the assembly.

A.N.W. How did John the baptist come to change from speaking of the Lamb of God to that of the Bridegroom?

J.T. I think the Lord made Himself felt in John's soul. Earlier, he had said he did not know Him; he had not then heard His voice, but now he has seen Him and also heard His voice, showing, as remarked, that the Lord Jesus began to minister before John the baptist was cast into prison.

F.H.L. Do you think John the baptist had something beyond the Jewish bride in mind when he said, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven"?

J.T. He may have, but I judge his mind would be governed by Old Testament references. John the evangelist indicates that John's mind was merging into the truths of christianity. You can hardly say where his words in chapter 3 end. They run into christianity, you might say, but I do not think the assembly was definitely in his mind.

W.B-w. Referring to the sinful history, does the word, "He who has his origin in the earth" imply this?

J.T. It does; the assembly's origin is heavenly. Redemption and the ministry that makes it effective in men's souls, lead us to take heavenly ground. Sinful history is an individual matter, attaching to each of us; but as remarked, redemption meets this, to the infinite satisfaction of God, so that we can take heavenly ground in the assembly.

A.R.S. Would the truth of new creation imply removal of sinful history?

J.T. It does; "old things are passed away", and among them the sinful state and history. The question of sin, however, has to be taken up through the conscience as a moral process; this enters into our formation, and is expressed in the new man. New creation fits us for heavenly glory and the counsels of God.

A.B.P. Is this woman an example of one who is born of the Spirit?

J.T. Well, she is; new birth is taught to Nicodemus in chapter 3. The Lord did not speak of it to the woman. It is where people take pharisaical ground, that the truth of new birth is stressed, but when a man or woman is degraded and owns it fully, then chapter 4 is the instruction, and what such an one needs is inward deliverance, which is by the Spirit. The believer judges the thing authoritatively through the mind, resolving to

serve God's law, and the Spirit supports him -- the teaching is Romans 7 and 8. New birth, in itself, is an initial thought, but the springing well added to it, through redemption, renders the believer powerful and victorious. A man like Nicodemus would be greatly harassed with legal thoughts; he would need deliverance from the law; but the woman of Samaria would suffer from reminiscences and tendencies of her earlier life, and hence would need the Spirit as a spring within for deliverance.

Rem. The basis of this is being linked up with something that has come out of heaven.

J.T. That is the thought that John the baptist has, that He that comes out of heaven is above all. He has a great way of giving precedence to persons. He shows the Lord Jesus was before him. Jesus was about six months younger than John the baptist, but John says, He is before me. He cried and said this. John is ready to give way to others, and now it is not simply the Person of Christ, but because He is out of heaven. He must be above all. How wonderful it is that the church is out of heaven!

A.R.S. So that whatever goes into heaven has come out of it.

W.R. Would you link the idea of the Bridegroom, as having His origin in heaven, with His coming from the Father? I think James says, "Every good gift and every perfect gift comes down from above, from the Father of lights", James 1:17.

J.T. The Son is the gift of the Father, but then coming out of heaven would apply rather to the Person of Christ. The Person is heavenly Himself. "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before", John 6:62. He says, "I came down from heaven". That is the idea. He is a Man out of heaven. He was not a Man before He came down, yet He speaks, while on earth, of "the Son of man who is in heaven". So that the idea of man in heaven is there. Heaven is full of

the thought. Christ, as Man, is Head over all things to the assembly, which is His body. There are two thoughts in Genesis 1; the first is in verse 26, where God says, "Let us make man in our image". That is the kind of earthy being. Then in verse 27 we have the Adam, involving distinction, and it is male and female. God breathing into Adam's nostrils the breath of life made him a very distinguished order of being. That is the divine thought and that is what fills heaven. It is not that Christ is a Man on earth, but He is to fill heaven.

A.R. When the Lord says to the woman, "a fountain of water springing up into eternal life", that puts her on a different platform altogether.

J.T. The first platform is eternal life. That is the way up: the springing up. It is not only that I lay hold of life objectively; I have a spring that springs up into it, making me superior to death. I am not only alive, but in the sphere of life.

C.H.H. You were speaking about freshness in Ephesians 4, where we get "renewed in the spirit of your mind". I understand that word renewed is the idea of freshness. Would that be the condition the assembly would take on through the springing up? The next chapter says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly" -- as though the assembly would take on that freshness.

J.T. Yes. The renewal of the mind is involved in all that we are saying, so that the new man in Colossians is in freshness. The idea is freshness, or youthfulness. The word man, in that connection, does not imply sex; it is quality or character. There is only one new man. The heavenly city is called the new Jerusalem in Revelation 21. She comes down from God out of heaven adorned as a bride for her husband.

A.R. Would you say that at the Supper, every first day of the week, the saints come together in spiritual freshness as a bride ready for her husband?

J.T. That is what we are trying to get at. It is the matter of how this enters into the service of God. We now have come to the thought of life; not only the objective thought of it, but the inward means of reaching it. We reach eternal life; a sphere or order of things. That is the basis on which marital relations must be; it is not a dead state of things; it is a living state of things, and that is, I believe, why this great thought of the fountain is brought in in this chapter. It underlies the truth of the assembly and the service of God.

C.A.M. When we think of manhood in christianity, it includes the feminine idea as seen in Genesis 1:27. Now that that Person has come to earth, His voice brings about the formation of the bride.

J.T. That is right. He was here alone clearly, as Adam had been alone. We do not know how much older Adam was than Eve; both were created on the same day, but Adam had the experience of being alone. God took account of this fact and that it was not good, and moreover it did not fill out His thought. "Male and female created he them", and they had dominion. Genesis 2 enlarges on this great subject. Chapter 5 goes back to it and says, that on the day that God created them He called their name, Adam. Clearly He did not create them together, although the word create covers the woman, yet properly speaking, according to Genesis 2, she was built. She was made according to design. The idea of architecture, or design is there, and God Himself had that thought; the completion of the being that God's counsels required involved the female as well as the male. All this was only provisional -- Christ and the assembly formed the ultimate thought.

A.R.S. Adam says, "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh". Genesis 2:23. Eve does not say a word.

J.T. She is passive. She said too much afterwards.

C.A.M. It is a very wonderful thought, that the heavenly side should be in view, but brought about on earth. It was a heavenly idea before this occurrence.

J.T. Certainly Adam had not yet sinned, and the operation of creating or making Eve was before sin came into the world. God undoubtedly in His own thoughts had heaven in mind; that this great order of being that He had in mind should fill heaven. Of course, it would be in the second Man, who is "out of heaven", but I am speaking of the order of being. What we are speaking of did not come out immediately, because God was going on with the earth for the moment. The heavens are spoken of as made -- what is called the sidereal heaven. Chapter 1 does not say it was very good by itself, as if the Ephesian truth could not yet be unfolded. Our subject now requires Ephesian truth; we cannot understand it otherwise. In any subject we take up, the full final thought of it should be first in view, and then the details. I believe this section of John's gospel gives us basically the full thought, the Bridegroom's voice and one man rejoicing in it -- satisfied by it -- and then the idea of the bride coming in, as seen in this woman in chapter 4. The Lord, when the woman leaves, turns to His workmen. We, for instance, have been talking about Christ and the assembly; well, that is for every saint, whose ear can hear. The next thing is the workmen, through whom the Lord Jesus works specially; it is important that they should be spoken to by themselves, and that is the next thing that comes in. The Lord puts them in a low place; He says, "others have laboured, and ye have entered into their labours" (verse 38), but then He says, 'Behold, I say to you, Lift up your eyes and behold the fields, for they are already white to harvest' (verse 35). That is another important thought; sometimes it is well for those who are specially labouring to talk about these things. What we are considering now is not that; but what the Lord said to the woman. We are thinking of the formation of the

assembly, and how to be maintained in freshness; and of the spring -- the springing up into everlasting life.

C.H.H. Would the fountain in the believer include the thought of cleansing as in Ephesians 5?

J.T. That is rather the water that came from the side of Christ; water of purification. This in John 4 is the Holy Spirit as the water of life inside, as satisfaction and deliverance in the sense of power. There are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood. There is the water and the blood; they each witness, but the Spirit is the living witness, and the Spirit is in view in the living water here. The woman needed the blood and the water, but this is not stressed here. The point is that she gets deliverance for her affections in the power of the Holy Spirit; that is what is meant. So that she emerges from the influence of the men she had to do with, into the thought of one Man, as the apostle says: "for I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

C.H.H. Would the words He spoke to her be the water of cleansing?

J.T. He says to His disciples, "Ye are already clean by reason of the word which I have spoken to you", John 15:3. That is not the Spirit.

W.B-w. In the end of chapter 3 it says, "He that is not subject to the Son ..." Do you think He had in mind the false bride, to come in in the organised religions of today -- not subject to the Son?

J.T. No doubt, and so He speaks to Thyatira as the Son of God, who has His eyes as a flame of fire. You might put what you suggest into Romans -- the woman is free from her husband if her husband be dead. That would be the Jewish system; we have become dead to the law by the body of Christ. This woman had five husbands and the one she had was not her husband, which would be six -- think of the power of that. If she lived in Samaria, when Philip and the apostles went

down there and assemblies were formed, she would come into the truth of Romans; she would know this. She has already come into it in principle, because she sees her body as a vessel. It had been a vessel of corruption, but now it is to be a vessel for Christ in the assembly, and how has she become free from the old things? -- by the body of Christ. The Christ must die, and I can only be free before God legally through the death of that One, and that, of course, is what Romans teaches.

W.B-w. In Ephesians, the wife is to be subject to the husband. Is that the way the truth works out?

J.T. Quite so. The closing verse of John 3 shows that those who are not subject to the Son are under wrath; and how am I to get free of that wrath? She was claiming to be of the seed of Jacob. How would she get free of all that -- of Samaria and judaism? Only by the body of Christ; and that opens up a wonderful field of instruction, and, of course, Romans is the doctrine of it. Paul and Barnabas went through Samaria to settle the question of Jewish legality (Acts 15:1 - 3). They passed through Samaria. Well, suppose she was there, and knowing Paul's doctrine, she would say, I have got free by the body of Christ.

W.B-w. She would be married to another and bring forth fruit to God.

J.T. That is the idea -- to be married to another. Who is the Other? She is telling the men here that the Other is Christ; He is the Christ, she says -- "is not he the Christ?" She does not say, He had told her He is the Christ, but He had told her all things she had ever done. How can she get clear of all that? It is by the body of Christ in death. "We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all", Hebrews 10:10.

J.T.Jr. Would you say there is any correspondence in what Rahab said to the two spies? She spoke of Sihon and Og being destroyed.

J.T. That would be the idea exactly. She would understand the bigness that is prone to mark us at times. Sihon and Og are really the big "I". The woman of Samaria cherished whatever bigness attached to her according to her own reckoning. She put her fathers and her worship, and "this mountain", over against all that was in Jerusalem. But this assumed greatness had no value whatever. We have to come to this, that Sihon and Og are overthrown in us, before we can come into the assembly.

F.H.L. Would leaving the water pot be a proof that she had learned from the Lord's teaching?

J.T. Quite so. Leaving the water pot was no accident. It shows she had come into the idea of being a vessel. The assembly is a vessel. It comes down from God out of heaven.

W.G.T. The Lord says, in verse 10, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee ..." Would that not be the right way to approach the whole matter from her side?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord is bringing before her what John the baptist brought out in another way. John the baptist referred to it formally, that this voice he heard was out of heaven and above all. The Lord Himself says, "who it is" -- not who I am -- "that says to thee, Give me to drink". The element of going down must get into my soul. The glorious Creator and Sustainer of the universe is calling upon her for a drink of water. He is asking for a drink of water, and He has created all the water. It indicates the change that has come about in His becoming man, according to Philippians 2. That enters into the truth of the assembly, that we understand what it is to come down; to think nothing of ourselves; "For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus; who, subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form", Philippians 2:5 - 7. That thought is conveyed

here. The Lord says, "If thou knewest ... who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That was intended to get into the fibre of her being; she was to learn how the Lord descended, so that she might come down and be nothing.

C.A.M. When John says he heard the Bridegroom's voice, we might ask, What did he hear? Would you say that he heard some such tones as this.

J.T. Yes. The Lord elsewhere likens Himself to a merchant man seeking goodly pearls. He had a definite thing in His mind. Well, He found one pearl of great price, and He sold all whatever He had and bought it (Matthew 13:46). Well, if He were talking to you about that, you would hear the Bridegroom's voice. Oh, you say, the bride was not there. She was not; but she was in His mind. Divine Persons can regard abstract things as if they existed concretely. "Whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated", Romans 8:29. The concrete persons as walking here in time, are contemplated. God foreknew everyone of us. So the apostle says, "whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son". That is His mind for every person whom He has foreknown. As taken account of thus He loves us. As Paul says, "... who has loved me", Galatians 2:20. It does not say, He loves me, but, He loved me and gave Himself for me. The Lord loved Paul before He died.

A.R.S. The Lord took a body in order to die.

J.T. He came in order to die. He "came by water and blood ... not by water only, but by water and blood", meaning that He came in connection with these things. There would be no meaning in His coming otherwise.

A.R. The Lord, in saying these things to this woman, had the assembly in His mind?

J.T. Unquestionably. That is the setting of it. You can understand He would clothe her with assembly

thoughts. He knew what she was going to be. He knew her from the beginning.

G.H. I was wondering if there would be a lesson for us in the way He approaches the woman. There is divine skill and wisdom. He says, "Give me to drink".

J.T. He takes the ground of asking her for something, and He based His word on that afterwards. "If thou knewest ... who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink". He intended to bring out these great thoughts. His wonderful design; although God, He had come down to a position of asking her for a drink of water. It ought to touch our hearts. He was weary with His journey, and sat just as He was at the fountain. He made no effort to be anything more than He appeared to be outwardly.

Ques. Did she, in a sense, break through the Philistine ranks like the three mighty men of David?

J.T. I think she would; as she came to know Him, she would get a drink of water for Him, whatever the cost to herself.

A.R. Why does she say, "I see that thou art a prophet"?

J.T. That is because the Lord exposed her to herself; that is the order of the truth. The Lord said, "Go, call thy husband, and come here. The woman answered and said, I have not a husband. Jesus says to her, Thou hast well said, I have not a husband; for thou hast had five husbands, and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband: this thou hast spoken truly. The woman says to him, Sir, I see that thou are a prophet" (verses 16 - 19). She is beginning to see something. Hitherto she had not seen anything; she spoke as a natural person, about water, or whatever the Lord said; she spoke as a person with no spiritual perception, but now something has happened. The Lord has touched her conscience and she sees. What does she see? That is a good enquiry. You get it many times in the prophets. What do I

see? What am I getting? She says, "I see that thou art a prophet".

W.G.T. Would you say the prophetic word deals with the moral issue first, and after that bridal affections are awakened?

J.T. That is right; God has left Himself a door into man's soul through the conscience.

A.C. Before the woman gets to the truth of what the Lord is bringing out here, she is quite respectful in all her answers; she says "Sir" three times.

J.T. Quite so; the last is, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet". That shows her eyes are becoming opened and like the man in chapter 9, she says He is a prophet, and I believe that is a normal thing. We begin to discern Christ by the way He brings God into our souls and convicts us of sin; and the idea of worship comes in after this. You might say, it is quite incongruous that such a person should be talking to the Lord about worship, but it is not. The woman has light from God; she sees things now, and what does she see? She sees Christ as a prophet, and if you take up that word prophet and apply it, you see how powerful it is. Scripture says God brought Israel out of Egypt by a prophet. A prophet is a powerful minister of God.

T.W. It is remarkable that she immediately speaks about worship.

J.T. And the Lord did not make the slightest suggestion that she should not have introduced that subject; in fact, He enlarged upon it, and speaks of the service of God and of God Himself in a peculiarly spiritual and exalted way. Why is it? It is because she began to judge herself; a new life had begun in her soul; she saw Jesus as a prophet. What we are saying now is what the Lord is helping us in, in stressing prophetic ministry; that the service of God runs along with that feature. By it we understand how we must serve, and we must have God brought before us. Paul says, "For we are the circumcision,

who worship by the Spirit of God", Philippians 3:3. I believe the prophetic ministry that God has pressed upon us in recent years is largely to bring out what God is, and how He is to be worshipped, and that is the point here.

C.H.H. Why, in the face of that, does she say later, "Come see a man"? Why does she not refer to Him as a prophet?

J.T. Well, that helps in what we are saying. She is not only seeing a prophet, but she is seeing a Man; that means not only a power of attraction, but an object of affection. "And seven women shall take hold of one man in that day", Isaiah 4:1. Why is that? It is because Christ becomes supreme; other men disappear. These other men are displaced; she went to the men, but one Man has come into her soul, displacing all others. He has displaced the others. He has rights over the other men too, and she is looking after the Lord's interests in speaking to them. She does not come to the children and start a Sunday school; she goes directly to the men, because Christ is Head of all men.

W.B-w. Is there some order in the suggestion of the living water? It says, "whosoever drinks ... shall never thirst for ever", and then "the water ... shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life", after that worshippers are spoken of.

J.T. I think it is through eternal life that God gets His portion. In drinking the living water, primarily, I get my portion; I am satisfied; but it is on the basis of eternal life that God gets His portion. I think the new race, out of which the assembly is formed, is there and that brings up the whole question of eternal life. It is the basis of what we are talking about. There can be no nuptials aside from a living state of things. It is not mere doctrine; it implies what is living.

A.P.T. Does 1 Corinthians 14 indicate the presence of eternal life? A word comes "to another sitting there".

J.T. I think so; the organism contemplated in 1 Corinthians 14 is composed of living persons; it is an organism; and that underlies the fact that you may get something in the ministry meeting from the Lord directly, and a person speaking discerns that you have it. I do not say I have ever actually seen it, but what underlies ministry meetings, so-called, is that I am sensitive enough in the living organism to discern that someone has been affected by the Spirit of God, according to what is stated, and I give place to him, and I sit down.

W.B-w. Does the never-thirsting aspect refer to us down here where thirst is; whereas the fountain springing up into everlasting life belongs to another realm -- higher up?

J.T. It is deliverance, but it is more than deliverance. It is an out of the world, heavenly condition of relationship and being. It is out of the world. I am not only satisfied there, but God gets His portion there.

W.R. Here the woman seems to be altogether independent of the world. She is completely delivered, at the end, from the world system.

J.T. Yes; and she is looking after the Lord's interests. That is the next thing, which we might compare with the gospel meetings every Sunday night. I have no doubt the Lord uses them, but then who is looking after them? In the meeting room, and at the door, there should be some supervision of them. Of course, the preaching must be by one who has ability for the service; but there is much besides this to be done. Well, you say, I have no gift; but this woman did not have gift; yet she looked after the Lord's interests. She would not forsake the gospel meeting. She would speak to the men; here they went to Jesus because she spoke to them.

A.R. The gospel service really points to Christ, does it not? -- "Come, see a man".

J.T. Quite so. He is the attractive Centre for all. In John it is said three times that the Lord was to be lifted up, and the last reference to it is in view of drawing all unto Him. He is the Centre of the whole universe, the Centre of attraction. That is the point. The woman is attracted, and others become attracted to Christ because of what she says.

W.B-w. Would that support the idea of going outside, and getting others to come to the gospel meeting?

J.T. That is, I am sure, what God would say to us, because the gospel services are often left uncared for, not properly looked after. It is a question of the interests of Christ, and all men, in a sense, are included in them. Christ is the Head of every man, and men are to be considered from this point of view.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (2)

Genesis 2:10 - 25

J.T. The brethren will be aware that our subject for these monthly readings is wells, springs, or other typical living water -- active water denoting generally what is living -- in relation to the assembly. We had John 4 at our last meeting. In the chapter which is proposed for our present consideration, we have the river standing in relation to the assembly, as seen in Eve, the most exalted type, representing it apart from sin. The type we had last time stressed the historical phase of the assembly; that the members of it have had to do with sin, as seen in the woman of Samaria. Eve appears before sin came into the world, so that she represents the assembly in its most exalted, eternal relations, without any sin-stained history. It was taken out of Christ, so that it is His counterpart. It is said in Ephesians that God gave Him to be Head over all things to the assembly, which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all (chapter 1: 22, 23).

It will be before us now to discover what the river signifies as in this early type. First it is to be noted that it went out of Eden, which would suggest, typically, a heavenly environment. It is a place of delights, an extended one. The river was to water the garden, which was more limited, and from thence it flowed out universally. The suggestion clearly is that production, resulting from such an influence, is in mind. Mention is made of gold, and bdellium, and the onyx stone; three features of material which would have part to the structure, for the idea of structure is in mind. The woman is built; that is the word used.

C.A.M. Scripture seems to stress the source of the river, all through to the end of the Bible; it is an important point.

J.T. Eden was a wide area, but the significance of the word is pleasure -- the pleasure of God, I suppose, or the pleasure flowing from what God is, as seen in what God does. Flowing out of Eden, it is one river, and then it flows out of the garden as four distinct heads or streams, so that it points to intelligent influence -- headship; for the word really is "head", not "stream". If it be "main stream", it would mean leading influence.

A.R. Is it more a sphere here? In Ezekiel, it flows out from under the altar; and in Revelation, from the throne. Here, it goes out from the garden.

J.T. It is a sphere, indicating how far God had gone on these lines; Eden itself is wider than the garden. The river flowed out of Eden, so that it is a gathering up, influentially, of what God is, so far, in the way of affording pleasure.

A.N.W. Greater in volume than each of the four heads, I suppose.

J.T. That would be so literally, but they are great enough to be "main streams", each one of them a head, governing a district or point of the compass, so that the whole universe, you might say, is affected.

A.A.T. The last time we were together, we were thinking of a well; this time it is a river. What is the difference?

J.T. What is before us now is a much greater thought than a well. The first well mentioned in the Scriptures is in Genesis 16. It is a much smaller idea, but each alludes to the Spirit. A river flowing out of Eden carries with it the idea of living water as much as a well or a spring.

C.H.H. Would Pentecost correspond to the main stream, and then the flowing out following that?

J.T. Yes, the Spirit comes, we might say, fully. It is not partially. "For God gives not the Spirit by measure", John 3:34. The Holy Spirit coming in at Pentecost was not by measure; it was the Holy Spirit

Himself, and the parting would be the universal bearing of His incoming. The persons present in Jerusalem were, you might say, representative of mankind; although they were Jews or Jewish proselytes, yet their languages or tongues represented what was universal, so the Spirit could speak anywhere to men.

C.H.H. So the garden would correspond to the upper room in Acts 1?

J.T. Well, it would correspond to what was in it; the influence of the persons there. Luke, in Acts 1, presents those who saw the Lord go up, as coming from Mount Olivet, a heavenly environment. Luke's gospel contemplates widespread influence, and then the beginning of the Acts is specific as to the assembly. Luke presents the truth in that way; the visitation of an angel to Zacharias, and then to Mary -- the same angel -- and then to the shepherds, and then the multitude of the heavenly host. All that points to heavenly influence in a widespread sense, and was carried down to the Acts. At the ascension, two men in white communicated to the disciples. There is a chain of influence from heaven from Luke's point of view, and that takes concrete form in the coming in of the Holy Spirit Himself with the tongues, which pointed to universal communications and influence.

A.N.W. I was wondering whether the one hundred and twenty names (Acts 1), would suggest skilful planting, such as the garden of Eden.

J.T. Yes; the Father's planting. The Lord alluded to that in Matthew, saying, "Every plant which my heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up" (chapter 15: 13). No doubt the allusion goes back to Eden. These one hundred and twenty names are really planted, because life is suggested in the mention of name.

W.B-w. Why do you think it says the garden was "planted ... in Eden eastward"?

J.T. The east usually denotes hope. Luke carries that thought strikingly. He speaks about "the dayspring

from on high" (chapter 1: 78): It is a hopeful suggestion of what is coming.

J.S. Would the four gospels indicate the four courses of the river?

J.T. They would confirm the idea, I think. The gospels are not primary from our side; they are confirmatory. The primary thought for us is the epistles. It would be difficult to establish Christianity as we have it without the epistles. Of course, it was inaugurated in the power of the Spirit by the apostles, but the epistles were needed for its establishment and maintenance. The gospels only would not suffice for this. They are wider in their bearing, and deal with other dispensations, whereas the epistles deal with the saints who form the assembly and set us on the right way. What came out at Pentecost was the coming in of the Spirit, and the bearing of this great fact toward Christianity.

J.S. Would the epistles in that way give us the banks of the river?

J.T. They do; the gospels are confirmatory of them. The gospels furnish the full bearing of the incarnation.

R.W.S. The power of Pentecost was irresistible. Would it be right to say that these rivers are irresistible? One river, we read, surrounds the whole land of Havilah, and another river flows forward towards Asshur.

J.T. Yes; the first two surround; the third goes forward. As to the first thought, the Lord, for instance, spoke from the standpoint of a circuit (Mark 3:34). He looked around on His disciples, which would imply that He compassed them, and He pointed out the good that was there in them. All outside of that circle was not good. The going straight forward of the third river would mean that the way is clear, and the end is to be reached definitely.

W.G.T. Would that be Paul's ministry? You spoke recently about his journeys. Would they bear on these rivers?

J.T. Yes. He says "from Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum". The circuit corresponds with the first two rivers. I think these points could be worked out from the facts in the epistles and the Acts. The incoming of the Spirit implied unlimited power, first in the form of the breathing. It was, you might say, an inward movement of God Himself. Breathing involves what is inward; an inward mighty movement, not for harm, but for good -- the breath of God. It was by the breath of God that Adam was made a living soul. It was unique. No creature but man is made to live by the breath of God.

W.R. In Matthew's gospel the Lord says, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth", Matthew 28:18.

J.T. That is Matthew's point of view -- unlimited power for administrative use. The breath of God is to be specially borne in mind; there is no creature in the universe who is made to live by the breath of God, but man. Man became a living soul by the breath of God, and Pentecost denotes the breath of God in a most powerful way. 'It is not 'wind', but they heard blowing, as of hard breathing' (J.N.D.'s note to Acts 2:2). Yet, we cannot work out from that fact that God breathes as we do. There is no evidence that He does at all; it is a figure pointing to the inward movement of God, inward power affecting the saints.

A.R.S. The Lord breathed into the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", John 20:22. Has that anything to do with this?

J.T. Well, it has, in that the link is there in the breathing. Christ, the last Adam, a life-giving Spirit -- showing that He is a divine Person; He is God, but as come in manhood; but at Pentecost it is God. Of course, Christ had gone up into heaven, and it might be regarded as the extension of what John speaks of as already referred to. It is a powerful breathing. It

points to the affections of God flowing out through Christ, expressed in the gift of the Holy Spirit.

A.R.S. Was John 20 preparatory to Pentecost?

J.T. Well, it would be a pattern of what would happen at Pentecost, only that Pentecost is a much larger idea, and more powerful. John 20 is intimacy, indicating a beautiful link between Christ and His disciples; He breathed into them.

F.H.L. Is there any moral order in the seas coming to light in chapter 1 and then the river here?

J.T. Well, seas convey the most extensive idea of water. The mist here is also water, adaptable to certain conditions. It is not rain, it is a mist, and its origin was the earth, showing that the earth itself had this principle of moisture in it; that is what is stated: "For Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth ... But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground" (verses 5, 6). It is a form of water that meets a condition in view of man's formation. It is a moistened earth that is used. This is the order in which the facts are stated. Adam means earthy, but of the earth as moistened.

C.H.H. Is moisture a primary thought of the Spirit?

J.T. I think the Spirit is in mind both in the river and the moisture. The Spirit is first introduced in chapter 1: "And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters" (verse 2). The Spirit hovered, as if to effect something. Now we have the idea of the Spirit carried through in the moisture, as a type -- showing how God can adapt things as He needs them.

C.H.H. Is that why the earth would bring forth fruit of itself?

J.T. Well, for that there must be moisture, otherwise the earth would be dry and unproductive We have things spoken of in the abstract in verse 5: "every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew". That is, God was taking account of the things before they had actual

form. The mist would be in view of the earth being fitted to produce fruit; so that the idea of water as a type of the Spirit is present in view of what God had in His mind to develop.

C.N. So that herbs, for instance, were dependent upon the moisture to bring them to fruition. The passage says, "Every herb of the field before it grew, for Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth".

J.T. That is very evident; and the earth had the thing needed in itself, because the mist went up from it. "A mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground". We have the face of the waters earlier, but here it is the whole surface of the ground.

C.H.H. Is there an idea in it that these conditions were in view of man? The word man appears about eighteen times in this chapter.

J.T. I think that is what is before us. The verses at the end of the chapter bring man before us in the male and female aspects. We have only the male so far in chapter 2, but the primary word denotes both: "Male and female created he them" (chapter 1: 27). So that it is to bring out these great beings and an environment for them. The river, in its four heads, has universal influence; this typically culminating in the woman, that is, the assembly.

A.R. Perhaps the four heads or main streams suggest God's rights on the earth in the way of headship.

J.T. I think that is the way to take it; whether you look at them as main streams or heads, they point to the idea of intelligent influence, and with a purpose, each one named in a certain direction; with a certain thing in view.

A.R. Would it be right to say that God has a standard in the assembly in the way of headship, and that He has that standard for the whole earth?

J.T. Here, it is, I think, controlling influence.

Ques. In what sense does the river culminate in the woman?

J.T. Well, Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32. If the Holy Spirit is speaking of Christ and the assembly in this chapter, then we must see that the rivers have a bearing on the subject, and there is no doubt about it; Christ and the assembly. The man was made of the ground -- adamah. Now he is Adam. It is the same material, only in living form, and God takes something out of that to build a woman; but she is not made of earth. She is taken out of a living person: Adam -- not adamah. It is very interesting and opens up a good deal as to the formation of the assembly.

Ques. Psalm 104, "He watereth the mountains from his upper-chambers: the earth is satisfied with the fruit of thy works" (verse 13). Is there a suggestion in this?

J.T. Well, the upper chambers we have been already speaking about -- a wide area called "Eden" which evidently points to heavenly influence, or at least influence governed by the pleasure of God, as it is said, "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men", Luke 2:14. I believe Luke has the formation of the assembly in mind in the way he speaks of heavenly influence, so that our chapter, including the rivers, culminates in man and woman -- man made out of adamah, but moistened; not ordinary ground, but moistened by something of itself; and then the woman is made out of Adam. It is the same word, only denoting a person or living condition; not simply a moistened condition, but a living condition.

C.A.M. Would you say that in regard to the female being contained in the idea of man, that God, in the early part of the chapter, is preparing our minds to realise that there is a wonderful potential thing coming?

J.T. Quite so; what immensity there is in the idea of man -- I mean man in both sexes -- for we are looking at it from the standpoint of Christ and the assembly.

We must look at it from the top. It is the supreme elevation that we get in the New Testament, that we are dealing with now; the assembly coming down out of heaven. What an immense thought it is! There are incidental things, but it is Christ and the assembly that the Spirit of God has in His mind in this chapter.

A.N.W. Would you say why the woman in chapter 2 is foreshadowed as a female in chapter 1? She is created -- "male and female created he them". Is that different from being taken out of the man in chapter 2?

J.T. Well, the truth stands in relation to the whole system of creation in chapter 1; the two features were there in the word "Man" -- male and female. In chapter 2, you have an immense environment that we do not get in chapter 1. We get man introduced as formed out of the earth; not created, but formed, and what he was to be. He was placed in Eden to dress and guard it, and these rivers are seen flowing out from there. He is already there, but not she, so that we do not have man fully yet: the thought in chapter 2 is fullness -- especially Adam's fulness. There are other fulnesses suggested, but the great thought is Adam's fulness. The assembly is Christ's fulness; that is, it is out of Him. It is the working out of what is there already.

W.F.K. Does the river refer to ministry?

J.T. Well, ministry would be included in it, but it is more than that, I think; it is the Spirit as producing things; gold, and bdellium, and onyx stones. These are only samples to keep our minds set on what God has in His mind in this wonderful chapter of Jehovah Elohim. Remember, it is that compound name that is before us -- God under that designation!

C.A.M. We often refer to the assembly as having its origin in the death of Christ, the deep sleep, but when Christ came into manhood there was that in His own glorious Person great enough to form the assembly.

J.T. Yes; He had it in mind. Ephesians 5 says He gave Himself for it. And then God "gave him to be

head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all" (chapter 1: 22, 23). "Fulness" is the governing word, I think, because fulness means what comes out of a person or thing, already there potentially; that is what the assembly is -- it is "of Christ". It is out of Christ, as having died and risen; not what He was here below, but what He is now.

W.G.T. The incoming of the woman is somewhat clothed in mystery here; we are just told that she was taken out of man and presented by God to Adam.

J.T. What she is to be is to be named by him, to bring out his wonderful intelligence; he recognises her as of himself and he uses here a new word to designate her. There is no suggestion that God told him to use it; it is to bring out what Adam was; what resourceful intelligence there was in him. Why should he introduce a new word for man; not Adam, but Ish, another word altogether? We are now in the world of individualities, of personalities; not simply the word of creatures, as in chapter 1, but a world of persons, and persons with affections, with social feelings; that is what we ought to get into our minds, that the Lord Jesus has inaugurated such a world.

R.W.S. What was taken out of Adam was part of his framework, was it not?

J.T. How did he know it? "This time ...", he says. He saw her coming; how delightful it must have been to him as he stood in the presence of a person like himself, that he had never seen before; indeed, could not have seen before! She was only in God's mind before, but now she is there in a concrete form, and Adam names her; gives her a new name, and he gives a reason for it.

A.R. When we see Eve we see Adam; when we see the saints, as formed of God, we see Christ.

J.T. That is the truth; the saints have taken on His character; He says to Saul, Why dost thou persecute Me? The saints are His body -- Himself, in that sense.

I speak of Christ and the assembly, the apostle says: What a realm we are in! What a realm of intelligence; not only intelligence, but affection. When Adam named the cow or sheep there was no question of affection; it was simply intelligence. Now it is intelligence and affection; Adam has a person that he can love; that he can admire; that is the point. We are in a world of personalities now, that is to be expanded infinitely, you might say, but we begin with this. What feelings must have been in Adam's heart as the woman stood before him, and what hers must have been!

A.N.W. It does not say that she, like the animals, was brought to him to be named. The animals were brought to him to see what he would call them, but we read in verse 22, "And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man", leaving her, evidently, to answer to his affections as well as to challenge his intelligence.

J.T. There is more in it than merely two creatures, or that he should name her as he named the cow; it is more than that. God is dealing not only with Adam's intelligence, but with his affections. Think of the effect it must have had upon him, because his inward feelings would be affected, and God intended that.

W.B-w. Perhaps you will mention what you have in mind as to Ish.

J.T. "And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man" (verse 23). Those who have the New Translation will see that the word translated "woman" is "Ishshah"; and then Adam goes on to say, "... because this was taken out of a man", which here is the word "Ish". The word is, as we have been remarking, entirely new in the vocabulary; Adam has brought it in and what does it mean? Does it not allude to his affections, that his whole being is affected; that now it is a creature that is like himself that he can admire, and she can admire him? And so, we can

be companionable to one another. It is the word used for husband later.

C.A.M. "This time it is bone of my bones" -- when was that, historically? Would you put it in John 20?

J.T. Yes. I think that when the Lord breathed into the disciples they would be in His mind in this way. He showed to them His hands and side: the side would imply the origin of the assembly, corresponding to Adam's rib.

Rem. This is very interesting. I have noticed in this chapter that it says, "out of the ground Jehovah Elohim made every tree grow ..." (verse 9); and "A river went out of Eden" (verse 10); and then in verse 19, "And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal"; and then in verse 23, "out of a man", which is a climax.

J.T. Very good -- a totally new matter now, and I believe Adam, in naming her, is entering into the understanding of personality; he could not converse, nor commune with the lower creatures, but here is a person like himself. Applying that to Christ and the assembly, we see that He has genuine affection for us and we have genuine affection for Him. Canticles may be taken as the expansion of this -- what Christ is to the assembly, or Israel, and what we are to Him. We are now in the realm of reciprocated intelligent affection.

A.C. Verse 24 would come as a climax: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh".

J.T. Just so; therefore shall a man leave his father and mother; the therefore is an allusion to what we have been speaking of, that there are two persons there with mutual affection flowing from admiration, and that is what the Canticles open up to us.

F.S.C. Does the thought of helpmate apply to the assembly? You were speaking about affection and I

was wondering if the thought of helpmate enters into that.

J.T. I think what underlies the typical truth here is the affinity between these two beings. They are not simply creatures; they are beings. It is a question of personality, and we see what they are capable of being to one another, and how Adam understands that. There were no fathers and mothers yet, so this "therefore" looks forward in the history of the human race. It refers to Christ leaving Israel, and being united to His wife, the assembly, so that there is one flesh.

R.T.M. And is that connected with the new word? You were speaking of the word Ish.

J.T. It is; it is the word that enters into the social, or the affection or family side. Adam represents the race, but Ish and Ishshah are names for man and woman that denote their mutual suitability to each other, and all that which the word opens up on these lines.

A.N.W. Adam seems to be linked with the dominion side in chapter 1, and Ish is on the family, or marital side in chapter 2.

J.T. It is remarkable. God does not here use the word Ish; God uses the word Adam, but Adam uses the word 'Ish'. I think the Spirit of God would tell us in this that Adam's affections are brought into play. He sees a new world of mutual affection in relation to the woman.

R.T.M. Is that why the word is used for husband later on?

J.T. Quite so; it governs the marital relation.

C.A.M. Do you think that the reference to a man leaving his father and mother can be read into the expression, "Touch me not", in John 20? Another world of things -- a heavenly world -- was coming in.

J.T. I think it would agree with it. John 20 fills out what we are saying; what our relations with Christ are. They are heavenly. "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father" (verse 17), means that our relations

with Him would be heavenly. His word to Mary Magdalene is the germ of the relationship of the assembly. He adjusted her, and she calls him Rabboni, meaning that He was her Teacher. That is for us, as in the last days. John stresses learning from the Lord, and that is the point at this time, to get some further thought of Christ and the assembly.

A.R. Would what you are stressing as regards Christ and the assembly also include our relationships with one another, as understanding that our links are heavenly? So the relationship you are speaking of, would be on a very high level.

J.T. Yes; mere natural things are shut out. It is a question of clothing one another with heavenly thoughts, and hence the message to Mary was sent before the Lord entered into the company. The message was, "go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God", John 20:17. And Mary went and told the disciples these things, and that she had seen the Lord. She carried the whole thought into the company, and He comes in after that, and they are equal to the visitation.

A.R. Is that why He stands in the midst in John 20? There is nothing to rebuke, as if what He has taken on in His own is heavenly, not related to Israel.

J.T. Yes, and not only that, but according to John's report. He came, meaning that He was calculating in all this. In Luke, He simply stands in their midst, but in John He came and stood in the midst, implying that He was calculating beforehand.

A.R.C. The apostle Paul, in developing this great truth of the assembly in Ephesians 5, speaks of Genesis 2.

J.T. He alludes to this scripture. We have therefore a good warrant for saying the Holy Spirit had Christ and the assembly in mind in these verses.

C.N. Would you say a word on verse 18? "It is not good that Man should be alone".

J.T. That shows what premeditation entered into the happenings of this chapter. When God said, "Let us make man in our image" (chapter 1: 26), we have no thought like this at all. No doubt there was the need in God's heart to have a creature like Adam to represent Him here, to be His image and His likeness, but now it is a question of man's loneliness and God taking account of that. I do not know how long it was from the time that Adam was actually created out of the earth and Eve's formation, but it could only be a matter of hours, because it was all on the sixth day, but still, if it were only hours, Adam had the experience of being alone, and God sympathises with him as in it. He calculated that it would be necessary to make some one like him. It is touching.

A.B.P. In that connection, would you say that God was behind Mary's being at the sepulchre? The Lord Jesus seeing Mary there, would be something like Adam seeing the woman brought to him and naming her Ishshah.

J.T. I think it would; I think the conversation between Him and Mary takes on the most extraordinary character and you cannot but see that He had in His mind to allure her out of her Jewish setting as the Canticles suggest. And finally, Mary says, "Rabboni", which implies that He had been teaching her. That is so important in assembly formation; that is, to be divinely taught.

A.B.P. And would God's consideration for Christ be seen, too, in her being there early in the morning? He brought the woman to Adam, and I was wondering if God was not behind her being there at that time, to meet a need in the heart of Christ.

J.T. Well, John 20 is so very like this chapter because it begins with the glory of the Father; Paul tells us that the Lord Jesus was raised by the glory of the Father, so

that we may say the first day of the week was inaugurated by the Father. How long was that before Mary was there? In the order of one, two, three, the Father was there first. But it was very early in the morning when she came. It was yet dark, so that she was very near the glory.

J.S. What marked her was affection?

J.T. Well, that is what comes out. She was very cloudy, much more so than we are apt to think if we have not looked into the matter. But affection was there and she came in, you might say, as the glory had just been there, and she shared that atmosphere, so to speak, and ran. She is remarkable in this sense -- the hind of the morning, for this is a feminine thought; it is the agility that marked her affection, although she was cloudy.

R.W.S. Would you enlarge on verse 22? -- "And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man".

J.T. Well, I think one thing that should be said is that in this, 'Jehovah Elohim' is personal. It is God in covenant, not now with the earth, but with Adam; not that the word 'covenant' is there, but He is dealing with man on personal lines; that is, with His great creature, and I think that is why you have this term 'Jehovah Elohim' -- a compound title. He is dealing with the very greatest things, from His own standpoint. It is fulness, and the introduction of personalities with whom He Himself can commune, and who can commune with one another. The next chapter shows that God came into the garden and He was heard walking -- His voice was heard walking in the garden; that means, I think, that He is coming into this personal state of things; He is going to have part in this personal state of things, which is the basis of all peace-offerings; that God can have part in our occasions of joy. Jehovah Elohim taking this rib and closing up the part implies mystery; you cannot look at any man and say, That is

where the rib came out. God has not left it like that; His own hand closed it up. It is a mystery, but a wonderful person has come out, like Adam, and fit to be his counterpart and companion. That refers to Christ and the assembly; and when you look on it from that point of view you can see what a time it was for Jehovah Himself -- Jehovah Elohim.

W.G.T. Is what you said about covenant implied in verse 18? God evidently made a contract.

J.T. Well, He did, in His heart. It says, "And Jehovah Elohim said, It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make ..." -- that, you might say, is a covenant, although it does not say He said it to Adam, but it is very much like the promises of life. In both 2 Timothy and Titus we have the promise of life. To whom did He promise? It is really a matter of His own heart, and so is this. It is the outcome of His own consideration for us, but it is a fixed matter.

R.T.M. Why is it that before the woman is formed the commandment that the man should not eat of the tree of good and evil is given?

J.T. That is how it is stated here. When these things actually took place historically, it is not easy to say. That command might have been given to man after; we cannot be sure. We can be sure of one thing, that the formation of woman was on the same day as the formation of man -- "in the day when they were created", Genesis 5:2.

A.N.W. Does that not confirm what we have had before us, that in man the responsible side is stressed; and woman, the subjective side?

J.T. That is true. As it stands here, you would assume the command was given before the woman was made, but you cannot be sure of it. It is simply a fact stated with other facts put down in this chapter.

F.H.L. Would you say a word about the Euphrates?

J.T. There is nothing special said of it here. Evidently it is mentioned as well known. In its prophetic setting

it is the boundary between the East and the West in Asia. The Euphrates is the dividing line, spiritually anyway. Four angels are said to be bound there, and when loosed, they lead an immense Asiatic army against the western empire. So from the standpoint of prophecy in the book of Revelation the kings of the East came from beyond the Euphrates. The Euphrates was the eastern limit of Israel's territory.

Rem. The gifts in Ephesians 4 are under four heads.

J.T. Yes; "Some apostles and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers" (verse 11). Shepherds and teachers are one -- those four go together, for the securing of the assembly; "for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ" (verse 12). So that this matter of the Euphrates is worth considering. The ways of God generally are west of that river, but they are going to turn that way presently; they are going toward the East presently, but in the meantime, God is occupied with Christ and the assembly, and whatever is happening must subserve that.

F.S.C. Was Abraham taken out from the region of the Euphrates?

J.T. Yes. The name 'Hebrew' probably refers to that; that he came over from across the river. But you can see the drift towards the West. Some of us have been greatly impressed by the Pacific -- the feeling that when you reach it you are at the extreme West. God has reached the extreme West in securing the material for the assembly.

T.D. Psalm 72 speaks of Christ's dominion being from the river unto the ends of the earth; that would give scope to it, would it not?

J.T. Yes, that is right; that would allude to the river Euphrates.

A.R. What you say about the movement westward would include the work of God in this country?

J.T. Just so; it has been opened up recently and God is operating in it, which is very touching, that He has followed the movements of peoples to the western hemisphere -- mainly from Europe. God is following it up and is taking out His elect. Wherever they are, He will get them.

W.B-w. According to what you have said, the last section of the chapter seems to be on a higher level than the garden and the river -- the man, in living affection with his wife would be a higher connection.

J.T. Yes, but the river points to the Spirit; the ideas are not detached. The four heads would imply activities of the Spirit universally to take out the assembly. I think that is what is in mind; so that you can connect the idea of Christ and the assembly with the whole chapter in that sense. The chapter culminates in the union of Christ and the assembly.

W.B-w. Is that while we are down here?

J.T. Well, what we are here and what we shall be forever, for we shall always be united to Christ. God gave Him to be Head over all things to the assembly.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (3)

Genesis 16:6 - 14; Genesis 21:14 - 21; Genesis 24:11 - 27

J.T. Our subject is the consideration of wells and springs which stand in relation to the assembly. We have three in the scriptures read, and we shall need to be attentive to see the relation of each to the assembly. The first two -- in chapters 16 and 21 -- stand in relation to Hagar. How she may be linked up with the assembly will become clear as we proceed. She stands in relation to it negatively, by way of contrast. We learn from Galatians that she is over against Sarah, who may be connected directly with the assembly. Sarah, Abraham's wife, is said to be the free woman. She represents "Jerusalem above ... which is our mother"; that is, the assembly. Hagar is to be looked at as a type of Israel, and as provisionally occupying the place of wife to Jehovah. Israel will yet occupy this place as the earthly bride.

The application of the well to Hagar would be the Spirit as ministered to the Jews, or Israel, through the ministry of Christ, and that of the twelve. Hagar exhibits a certain amount of respect, or regard, for the well, but she is in no way characterised by it. She uses it for Ishmael, her son, but in no way is she characterised by what the well represents; whereas Rebecca, in contrast to her, is remarkably characterised by the features of the assembly, and in the use of the well in chapter 24.

I thought the Lord would help us in understanding the contrast between the ministry of the Spirit to those who are unappreciative of it and fail to take character from it, and to those who do appreciate it and take character from it, who thereby characteristically constitute the assembly. Rebecca represents this in a striking manner.

W.R. What was in your mind in saying that Hagar was in no way characterised by what the well represents?

J.T. There are many like her today, who do not openly disregard the Spirit, nor the word of God -- for Hagar obeyed the angel's directions to return to her mistress -- but they do not appropriate what is of God so as to become characterised by it.

C.M.A. Would the fact that the angel of Jehovah is prominent, stress the earthly side of things? The initiative seems to be taken by the angel. He finds Hagar at the well.

J.T. She is treated as one in relation with God, being of Abraham's household, and is directed to return: "Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands" (verse 9). Throughout these passages she is treated with remarkable consideration by Jehovah, but while she respects the command of the angel there is nothing further to indicate any characteristics produced by the word of God. There are many who outwardly obey and conform to a certain degree to what is of God, but fail in character, and hence disqualify themselves for being regarded as of the assembly.

Rem. In chapter 21, she is given a flask of water.

J.T. It is Abraham's provision, but there is a well to which God opened her eyes. "And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a flask of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder" (verse 14). And then we are told, "And the water was exhausted from the flask" (verse 15). And then, in verse 19, "And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went and filled the flask with water, and gave the lad drink". She availed herself of the well and used the flask too, but there is nothing said of her appropriating it for herself.

W.B-w. Her name is said to mean flight. Would that be characteristic of Israel? She is called upon to return.

J.T. She represents Israel in such circumstances. She is a wanderer, or one who flees. She is governed immediately by what is said to her, but fails to absorb the divine thought; fails to take character from it. There are many like her at the present time.

Ques. If one's tendencies are unspiritual, does this appear in my children? Ishmael takes character from Hagar.

J.T. It is clear enough that he is a mongrel, spiritually; "a wild-ass of a man"; but she is taken account of in these two chapters as a type of Israel; the Israel the Lord Jesus had to do with; to whom He ministered by the Spirit of God. "But if by the finger of God I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God is come upon you", Luke 11:20. She represents the Jews in those circumstances; she flees of her own will and returns at the divine direction, but that is all. Then she becomes an outcast by the authority of Scripture: "But what says the scripture? Cast out the maid servant and her son", Galatians 4:30. She is an outcast, with her son, on the authority of Scripture, but yet not disregarded. She is provided with a flask of water and bread, and her eyes are opened to see the well, and she uses the well for her son, but there is no character which answers to it, neither in herself, nor in her son.

J.S. How do you view Abraham here?

J.T. He is in relation with God, and representative of Him; he is spoken of as anointed in Psalm 105. Ishmael is taken account of because he is Abraham's seed, according to chapter 17. He is like many today that are in relation with those who are of God and are more or less submissive, and observant of what is of God, but fail to take character from it; that is, fail to take character from the Spirit. There can be no features of the assembly without the Spirit -- without the Spirit appropriated -- not merely speaking of Him formally, but appropriating Him.

F.H.L. In chapter 16, the spring is called a well after Hagar had said, "Thou art the God who reveals himself" (verse 13). Is there any point in that in line with what you are saying?

J.T. "And she called the name of Jehovah who spoke to her, Thou art the God who reveals himself, for she said, Also here have I seen after he has revealed himself. Therefore the well was named Beer-lahai-roi" (verses 13, 14). And then we are told where it was. She knows that she has had to do with God, for He saw her, and the well is recognised, but where is the typical character of the assembly? There is not a trace of it in her.

A.C. Is it not striking that despite Hagar fleeing on the two occasions, she is still the object of angelic care?

J.T. The angel spoke to her in both cases. She is typical of the Jews. What interest was shown in them in the incarnation, as God came into their midst! The Lord goes so far as to say, "I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house", Matthew 15:24. What attention was paid to them -- but without effect! The nation, as such, was utterly without response to the overtures and favours extended to them. John the baptist said, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", John 3:29. But where was the bride? The Bridegroom's voice was to be heard.

A.N.W. Is the contrast emphasised in Galatians, in that, on the negative side, "Hagar ... corresponds to Jerusalem which is now"? Hagar could be said to personify that, but the positive side is too great to say that Sarah personifies it. It does not say Sarah is the "Jerusalem above", Galatians 4:25, 26.

J.T. Galatians says she is the free woman, and this suffices for the apostle Paul to connect her with the assembly; he connects her with the Jerusalem which is above. She is the free woman; she is not Rebecca, but still, there is sufficient there to enable the Spirit to speak

of her as a type of the heavenly city -- as over against Hagar, who is like Jerusalem now. The apostle says, "which is now, for she is in bondage with her children" (verse 25), so it is a question of motherhood really, but motherhood that is identified with the assembly.

W.G.T. Does chapter 16 bring out the thought of elevation; God regarding persons in an elevated way because of outward connections; such would otherwise never come under His notice?

J.T. Hagar and Ishmael are elevated because of their relation to Abraham. This book shows what notice is taken of Ishmael. He had twelve princes, we are told, and God says to Abraham, "... because he is thy seed", Genesis 21:13. His mother had her elevation because of her relation with the house of Abraham. She belonged to a believer's household, but failed to take character from the Spirit, which was so ministered to her, in type, on two occasions.

R.W.S. Would the type of the well bring in the thought of our appropriation? We had rivers in the first meetings on our subject -- four main streams. Now it is a small amount of water.

J.T. It is water as of a well or spring. You are dealing with just one person. She has a double testimony rendered to her in the form of a well or spring -- ministered to her by God -- a very remarkable thing. In the second instance, she has a vessel whereby she may appropriate the thing, but failed in characteristic appropriation of it. She did not use it for herself; she used it for her son.

E.McK. Would Israel having the advantage be seen in that this is the first time the well is mentioned?

J.T. That is just what is meant. Israel has the advantage -- what an advantage! In answer to the enquiry "What then is the superiority of the Jew?" the apostle says, "Much every way", Romans 3:1, 2. Israel became the object of the ministry of the Spirit in a dual kind of

way, as seen in the passages before us, and in no case does she avail herself of it; that is, to use it for herself.

W.G.T. Correspondingly, would you bring the gentiles in here where Israel was once? They had the light first. "Arise, shine! for thy light is come" (Isaiah 60:1), but there has been no answer to it among the gentiles except in the assembly.

J.T. Hagar is regarded in the Scripture as a type of Israel as under the first covenant, "gendering to bondage". She does not represent the gentiles; she was in relation to Abraham, but as a bondmaid (her son taking character from her) she is a type of Jerusalem as in bondage with her children.

W.B-w. "For Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which is now", Galatians 4:25.

J.T. That is very plain, whereas Jerusalem above is free -- our mother; so that, although the mother side is introduced, the heavenly city is the bride of the Lamb.

W.B-w. In the first instance, where the well comes in, Hagar is called upon to submit to her mistress. Would that answer to the Lord's ministry among the Jews while He was here; and then the second well, where she has a vessel, would that correspond with Acts 2, the giving of the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so; she is called upon to submit, and she acquiesces in a way; she returns to her mistress, but you can see that it is a forced matter; there is no spiritual character in it. Those who heard Peter's preaching at Pentecost, said, "What shall we do, brethren?" Acts 2:37. Thus the remnant is different from Hagar, who represents what characterised the nation. Those convicted of sin say, "What shall we do, brethren? And Peter said to them, Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", Acts 2:37, 38. God had promised it. The promise was to them and their children, and to as many as were afar off. So that they come into the truth and avail themselves

of the gift of the Holy Spirit; the whole nation failed to do this.

W.B-w. Those who were added, submitted to the truth.

J.T. They wanted to know what to do, and they were told what to do and they did it; and it is said, "And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers" (verse 42). There are real results, but not in what Hagar represents.

A.A.T. In the early days of christianity, the Hebrews came out into the light, but the epistle to the Hebrews speaks of those who being partakers of the Holy Spirit have fallen away. They came under its influence, but did not come into the good of it.

J.T. That is just the truth. They were actually partakers of the Holy Spirit. Well, you say, They had it. Not at all. There may be many here partaking of the Holy Spirit, that is, as among christians and as sharing in spiritual ministry, but that does not mean they are true christians, sealed with the Spirit. It places them under great responsibility. That was exactly the point with Hagar. Hagar, in type, partook of the Spirit, giving the water to her son, but she never took character from it. It was all a shallow, external matter, whereas the Holy Spirit is in the heart of the true christian, and gives real character to him -- sheds abroad the love of God in his heart.

A.R. Over against those who believed at Pentecost, there were those that were mocking and said that those who received the Spirit were full of new wine.

J.T. They were like Ishmael, mocking as Isaac was weaned. They "insulted the Spirit of grace", Hebrews 10:29.

Ques. Would you say Hagar had never judged Egyptian principles although in a position of favour?

J.T. That is quite apparent. In chapter 21, we are told that she "went and filled the flask with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad, and he

grew; and he dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran. And his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt" (verses 19 - 21). Where was there any suggestion of her having any real part in the Spirit? None at all. And yet she sees. She is called by her name and told not to fear. She is wonderfully dealt with, in grace, but fails as to the character which the Holy Spirit personally imparts to a believer.

F.H.L. God even names Ishmael, does He not?

J.T. Yes; the attention paid to him is remarkable; even prophetically. "Twelve princes shall he beget", chapter 17: 20. All is because he stands related to Abraham, but that will not suffice for eternity. The Spirit of grace was operating among the Jews, and it is quite clear that most of them were not permanently affected. Some had part among the real ones and gained in an external way, but did not prove themselves genuine -- did not "go on to perfection". The epistle to the Hebrews deals with all this, warning in the severest terms those who sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth.

A.B.P. Was there not a lack of true motherhood with Hagar? She cast her child under a shrub, and said, "Let me not behold the death of the child" (chapter 21: 16).

J.T. It is a remarkable passage. It is said first of all that, "Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a flask of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder -- and the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba" (verse 14). She wandered about. That is what she was characteristically -- a wanderer, or a person who flees -- no stability or restfulness about her. And then the passage says, "And the water was exhausted from the flask; and she cast the child under one of the shrubs, and she went and sat down over against him, a bow-shot off" (verses 15, 16). A bow-shot is quite a distance. There is no affection suggested in

that. Then it says, "for she said. Let me not behold the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lifted up her voice and wept. And God heard the voice of the lad" (verses 16, 17). Notice that -- not her voice. God heard the voice of the lad, because he was Abraham's son.

A.R.S. What does the flask stand for?

J.T. Just a drinking vessel. If she were spiritually awakened, as the woman of Samaria was, she would have thought of herself as a vessel to be used of God. That woman left the water-pot; henceforth, it was a question of herself. Hagar had no idea of herself being a vessel of the Spirit of God; those she typifies have no such idea.

C.A.M. Do you think she may represent those amongst us who have been delivered from the world in a circumstantial way, and who are thus brought into the blessing that is near them?

J.T. Yes. See what surroundings she is in. What advantages she has had in the house of Abraham, and now with her child Ishmael, whose very name indicates relations with God. God speaks to her, and opens her eyes to see the well, and she uses the flask to appropriate the well, but only for her son. Then, when she takes the initiative, it is not to go back, to be near the household of faith, but in the opposite direction, towards Egypt; and there she secures a wife for her son. She is in no way typically characterised by the presence of the Holy Spirit. One of the greatest questions for us now is, Are we characterised by the appropriation of the Holy Spirit?

C.A.M. If we fail to come under the exercise that this involves, we might fail to reach the assembly altogether.

J.T. We cannot reach assembly conditions, except in an external way, without the Holy Spirit. It is by the Holy Spirit that we arrive at any real assembly impressions and constitution.

W.G.T. The moral lesson to be learned in Hagar's and Ishmael's experience, seems to be that that which is first is natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.

J.T. Yes. It is really a question in one's own soul of casting out Hagar and her son to make room for Isaac; the true child of promise; and that is what we come to in chapter 21. Hagar and Ishmael are the "natural", and both are to be cast out. Scripture says that they are cast out: "What says the scripture?"; that is, Sarah's word as to it is Scripture.

A.R. The teachers at Galatia were legalising the saints. Were they disregarding the operations of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. That is the point; they were disregarding the Spirit of God. They were perverting the glad tidings of the Christ (Galatians 1:7).

A.R.S. If Hagar had drunk of the well, she would have been invigorated. The well was there for her.

J.T. Those whom she typifies do not appropriate what is provided, what is so great and blessed, and hence they never take on the character of the assembly.

F.N.W. What is the characteristic of the two lines set out in Galatians 4:29? "But as then he that was born according to flesh persecuted him that was born according to Spirit". That is the Holy Spirit, is it not?

J.T. Yes. Hagar and Ishmael represent the flesh which as regards christians has to be cast out, but, inasmuch as they, standing in relation to the household of faith, represent Israel, God is still owning them, and so the type runs on to the end. God follows up Israel.

W.G.T. The word used there for Ishmael's mocking is persecuted. I suppose that is what we all have to accept. If there is going to be any progress on spiritual lines, there will be persecution.

J.T. And that from your most intimate natural relations. They may be the occasion of the persecution.

A.B.P. What does the well in chapter 24 suggest? Isaac was coming from it when Rebecca came into view.

J.T. I think it is to bring out that what was ministered to Israel -- to the Jews -- was the same as that ministered at Pentecost to the assembly. There is just the one Spirit. It is to bring out the great grace shown to Israel, in the ministry of Christ and the ministry of the twelve. It is the same Spirit. In the first instance, I suppose, it is what came out in the Lord Jesus. The well here, Beer-lahai-roi, is the Spirit, as presented by Christ. Isaac is seen returning from it -- literally "came from coming to", as the footnote reads -- as if with Rebecca coming into view, God would indicate that this must be the prime thought. It is, "Well of the Living who was seen", as the footnote indicates. It is really to bring out the light that shone in Christ among the Jews, involving the Spirit. In Genesis 24 the bearing of it is toward the assembly.

A.B.P. That would serve to emphasise the matter of appropriation; that Israel had the same opportunity that the assembly has had.

J.T. That is the idea. It is the same Spirit and only emphasises the favour shown to Israel in the ministry of Christ and that of the twelve. The ministry of the twelve might be suggested in the flask, because the idea of the vessel comes in especially in connection with the assembly. While Christ gives the Living Water, what is given after Pentecost was already here in the assembly. Acts 8 and 9 connect the gift of the Spirit with apostolic ministry.

A.N.W. Was not Israel's sin against the Lord, that, what He did by the Spirit of God, the Jews said He did by Beelzebub?

J.T. That is what brings out the terrible word that a sin against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven either in this age or the age to come. That is what the Jews were guilty of.

A.R. At the present time it seems that God is specially effecting liberty amongst the brethren. Might these references to the well, suggest the need in current

ministry, not only of right words and the truth, but that what is spiritual should be embodied in the ministry given?

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of whether we are characterised by the Spirit, so that the ministry might be truly spiritual. "He therefore who ministers to you the Spirit", says the apostle Paul (Galatians 3:5). How is he doing it? "On the principle of works of law, or of the report of faith?" That is, the ministry today is not on the principle of law. It is not exacting. There ought to be reproof and rebuke, of course, but nothing that brings into bondage. Spiritual ministry liberates the saints. The gift of the Holy Spirit, poured out at Pentecost, was most bounteous. "And ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God may call", Acts 2:38, 39.

J.S. Would the flask and bread in Genesis 21:14, represent what was provisional only?

J.T. Yes. It was very limited -- the water soon became exhausted. But the well was there -- God's provision. Hagar appropriated it for her son, which was right, of course, but she gravitated towards Egypt. There is no thought of returning to the household of faith. Hagar and Ishmael got further and further away from God.

J.T.Jr. God had Isaac in mind in chapter 21. He says in verse 12, "for in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee". And then the voice to Hagar is from the heavens. It is the heavenly side of things that is in mind even for Hagar.

J.T. That is very remarkable. The present dispensation, in type, is in mind. God had "heard the voice of the lad", and was with him as he grew. Remarkable grace was shown, but the sequel brought out that there was no heart with Ishmael or Hagar for the realm of faith, or for God and His things.

A.N.W. You have said there is more to the credit of Ishmael than to Hagar. In chapter 21, we are told that God was with him. Why was that?

J.T. Because he was Abraham's seed. Hagar had no such dignity as that, because she did not have the status of a wife, in the true sense of it. As cast out she is regarded as a handmaid or, according to Galatians, a bondmaid.

W.F.K. Ishmael had mocked.

J.T. Well, he had; but still, he was Abraham's seed, and God showed grace to him, providing for him to a point. It refers to God's patience with the Jews. The history is to show that the flesh turns away from God, even as known in grace. Ishmael dwelt before his brethren, but that does not mean fellowship. It implies that I am just as good as you are. He is in presence of the brethren -- the real children of promise -- but he is not of them. It is no encouragement or advantage to the brethren to have an element like that in their presence.

C.A.M. I suppose that is a thing to be afraid of in our households. We might maintain things on the principle of bondage, and have advanced no further than an appreciation of the providential interventions of God.

J.T. Yes, and having no spiritual character. There may be a nearness outwardly to the brethren -- those who are the children of promise -- because it is quite clear Ishmael dwelt near them. He did not move away out of sight. He kept within view of them, which would mean that he maintained his distinction as of Abraham, with no spiritual correspondence. That is the principle of the flesh, if it is outwardly related to what is of God. Israel was surrounded by that sort of thing, but it was a real opposition. Edom, Moab, Ammon and Ishmael were all related to it, but never subject to God in the midst of His people.

W.G.T. Joseph's brethren sold him into the hand of the Ishmaelites. Would that fit in here?

J.T. The Ishmaelites used him as a chattel. They bought him and sold him.

A.B.P. Does heaven's regard for Abraham show itself in the Lord's indignation against those who said they were Abraham's seed? He says, "Ye are of the devil, as your father", John 8:44. As though Abraham was held in regard and his lineage would be defended by Christ.

J.T. Quite so. It is what they had become, like Edom. God had paid great attention to Edom and refused to let Israel attack him, but in result God said, I hated him. It is the continuance of an attitude that results in being further and further away from God morally, and more opposed to His people and to His things.

W.F.K. Is God's attitude towards Israel expressed by the father towards the elder son in Luke 15?

J.T. Just so. The father's thought was to have him come into the house, but he would not come in. Genesis 21 is very instructive in regard of the well, because Abraham is seen there as great enough to reprove Abimelech, the Philistine king, on account of the well. If Hagar is not appropriating it or taking character from it, Abraham is. He must have it, and so secures the well -- the well of the oath -- and he has it abidingly. The Holy Spirit is ours on the principle of the promise and the oath.

J.S. Hagar is from Egypt and of Egypt.

J.T. Clearly. And she gravitates in that direction. She gets a wife for her son from Egypt. The link is very strong. I hope we will see the greatness of Abraham in chapter 21. Before Isaac is offered up, the greatness of Abraham is seen. He is great enough to stand up to the Philistine king and reprove him. In the previous chapter he prays for him, but in chapter 21 he reproves him, as it were, in the power of the well. Abraham gives the Philistine king seven ewe lambs, as

much as to say, My spirit is not aggressive nor unreasonable. As a type, he is characterised by the Spirit of God. The ewe lambs denote the spirit of moderation -- which believers are to show to all men (Philippians 4:5). Abraham had that spirit. That is the point in chapter 21 -- the moral greatness of Abraham as seen in the spirit he shows -- not an aggressive, violent spirit; not a wild ass of a man, but a lowly man, and yet the power of God is with him.

F.H.L. So that after securing the well, chapter 22 follows as the outcome, morally.

J.T. Yes. His relations with God are established on the principle of an oath, so that here it is the well of the oath. It is a place in chapter 21, but in chapter 26 it is a city. The place is called Beer-sheba, and Abraham calls on the name of Jehovah the Eternal God. He is coming into an eternal relation with God; it is immutable. That is an immense thing.

W.G.T. Does the Spirit of God move Abraham to have his house circumcised in chapter 17?

J.T. God moved him. He directed him to do it, and he did it, showing how he was characterised by the divine mind, immediately. This point in chapter 21 is immense, and we should get it into our souls -- the greatness of Abraham, before he offers up Isaac -- what he was. Everything is immutably fixed between him and God, so he calls on the name of the Eternal God.

W.B-w. Would God allow the Philistines to take away this well violently to test Abraham and bring out what was in him?

J.T. Abraham stands against that violence, but in another spirit. Seven ewe lambs do not denote violence. The Philistine king says, What are these? Abraham had already given him cattle, showing how great he was. He has already reproved him, but now he asks. What are these? What a fine reply! These, he says, in effect, are to denote that this well belongs to me. I need it if I am to have the spirit that these ewe lambs denote.

Abraham has the spirit of Christ, and that comes down to christianity by the Spirit "sent from heaven".

W.B-w. The Philistine element that was against Abraham would bring out this great thought in him?

J.T. That is one of the greatest things in the book of Genesis -- what Abraham was in the presence of a great monarch, and yet according to Psalm 105, he was outwardly of small account. "When they were a few men in number, of small account, and strangers in it. And they went from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another people. He suffered no man to oppress them, and reproved kings for their sakes, Saying, Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm" (verses 12 - 15).

R.W.S. When Abimelech and Phichol returned to the land of the Philistines. Abraham planted a tamarisk in Beer-sheba. What does that denote?

J.T. Evidently a place of worship. Here it is not idolatry. They had no temple. It was his own planting, which indicated his right to the land. He called on the name of the Eternal God; you will notice that. "And Abraham planted a tamarisk in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of Jehovah, the Eternal God" (verse 33). It is a wonderful finish, because it is an eternal relationship of the man of faith.

J.S. Would Beer-sheba correspond to John 4, "... neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father" (verse 21)?

J.T. Quite so, in the sense that Beer-sheba has a moral and spiritual significance, rather than geographical. It is the place of confirmation, and faith links on with this. The faithfulness of God enters into it, and this is particularly seen as Jacob is there on his way to Egypt (Genesis 46:1 - 4). God says to Jacob there, "I am God, the God of thy father"; not Abraham, but Isaac. It is a question of Christ risen, in whom every promise is yea and amen.

W.F.K. Does digging a well suggest conditions provided for the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Yes. Abraham is virtually saying, I cannot get along without it. We see that more in Isaac (chapter 26).

W.B-w. Will you say a little more about these seven ewe lambs that Abraham brings, "that they may be a witness to me that I have dug this well" (verse 30)?

J.T. It represents the fruit of the Spirit. You say, What is the explanation of a certain person being such a subject, humble, gracious man? What is the explanation of that? A Unitarian may say, I can be just like you; but he cannot. He does not possess the Spirit of God. A Christian Scientist may be very nice, but he does not possess the Spirit. He is only attempting to imitate. The true thought is what is here typically. The believer must have the well, and these seven ewe lambs mean I have the Spirit that the well represents. A real christian denotes that. Abraham is saying here, I must have the well. I will be violent like the Philistine if I do not have the Spirit of God. If we do not rely on the Spirit of God each day, we will be just natural. We may come to the meetings, but in a characteristic way we shall not have the spirit of the assembly.

W.G.T. The Lord Said to his disciples, "Ye know not of what spirit ye are", Luke 9:55. They were asking that fire be commanded to come down from heaven. Abraham asked for no divine intervention against the Philistines.

A.R. You have been emphasising the idea of the spirit of the assembly. The Holy Spirit helps us in our relations with divine Persons. Then as to our relations with one another, does what John the baptist says help, "He shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire", Matthew 3:11. Our links with one another would be according to God.

J.T. Quite so. The point in Galatians 5 is what the Holy Spirit is in its fruit -- love, joy, peace, longsuffering, etc. That is the idea that comes in here. It is

what characterises us. If we profess to have the Spirit, and profess to be in fellowship, this fruit is what is to characterise us. Without that our profession is futile.

Ques. In Acts 3 when the opposition begins -- the Philistine element opposing the works of God, seen in Peter and the lame man -- they told him not to carry on this great service of speaking about Jesus. The final issue is, we obey God. Would that be the thought in mind as a result of the Spirit of God operating in us, as under pressure?

J.T. Yes. Chapter 5 says God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him. We must obey God. If we do, we are in the power of the Spirit. The Spirit is actually there.

Well now, to go on to Genesis 24, I think we can see the place the well has in connection with Rebecca. It is a fuller presentation of our subject than we have elsewhere in the book. We have two wells. The first is Beer-lahai-roi; Isaac is occupied with that, but the servant who takes the camels and goes to seek Rebecca, makes the camels kneel down by a well. "And he made the camels kneel down outside the city by a well of water" (verse 11). It is remarkable that he made them kneel down, and then it says, "... at the time of the evening, when the women came out to draw water. And he said, Jehovah, God of my master Abraham, meet me, I pray thee, with thy blessing this day, and deal kindly with my master Abraham. Behold, I stand here by the well of water, and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water. And let it come to pass, that the maiden to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink, and who will say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also, be she whom thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and hereby I shall know that thou hast dealt kindly with my master" (verses 11 - 14). What a beautiful prayer that is. The servant of Abraham is a type of the Spirit Himself in another sense; he links with the well and he makes the camels

to kneel down; the camels are subject to him. We ask our children in the morning to kneel down to pray. Some may be reluctant and even glad when the prayer is over; these camels had no such spirit as that. They knelt down because he made them to do so. He made the camels kneel down by the well of water. What a fine drink they got! And what a fine giver of the drink. It is no less than the assembly in type. What we get in obeying our parents or whoever it may be when it is a question of kneeling down before God is indicated here. Many children do not kneel down according to order. What is needed is moral power, as seen in Abraham's servant here.

Ques. It was not a casual "stand" that the servant took in verse 13. The word seems to indicate that he stationed himself. Would it be a characteristic position?

J.T. The same as chapter 18, "And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him" (verse 2). Literally, "stationed themselves". It is deliberate. Everything is in order spiritually. But to return to verse 12, the servant says, "My master, Abraham". What a beautiful tribute by the servant! And he is no less than a type of the Spirit Himself. At the end of the chapter he passes the thought of master from Abraham to Isaac, showing that the Deity is in mind. You have the Trinity in the chapter typically, and how perfectly maintained -- the three Persons are One in thought and They recognise each other according to Their positions in the economy! In this setting we have Rebecca coming to light in connection with the well. She has a pitcher. She does not have to be supplied with one. In the servant's prayer, he says to Jehovah, "... and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water. And let it come to pass, that the maiden to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher ..." (verses 13, 14). She has one. That is, she has what is needed, not only the water in the well, but the pitcher, and her own strength and energy to use it effectively.

W.G.T. Hagar seems to have depended entirely upon Abraham for the flask in chapter 21. Abraham brought it to her. Ordinarily as being a servant in the house, she would be accustomed to get the pitcher herself. I was wondering if pride entered into her position.

J.T. She took no furnishing at all. She went out as an outcast; what she had was supplied by Abraham. Here in chapter 24 it is the assembly we are dealing with, which carries supremely the idea of a vessel. Peter saw "a certain vessel descending", Acts 10:11. Rebecca has what is needed with which to minister. It is a question of ministry now, and of prayer preceding the ministry. What good meetings we should have if they were opened by prayers like this!

W.F.K. Is Rebecca a type of the assembly as ministering to others?

J.T. Quite so; she is ready for whatever comes -- ministry in a general way -- but she is a subject of prayer. The servant is asking Jehovah about her before he meets her. It is the preceding prayer and as a result, all is perfect. Rebecca is ready with what is needed. This service is needed, and she is ready for it with her pitcher and her energy. We shall see too as we have often noted before, the amount of water she had to furnish was very large, including what the camels drank. But the point, first of all, is this pitcher, and the letting it down from where it should be -- the shoulder.

R.W.S. Why does he ask for just a sip of water? "Let me, I pray thee, sip a little water out of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink, my lord!" (verse 17).

J.T. Do you not think that is a demeanour that should govern us when we are invited into the house of a brother or sister? We should not expect something great, but what is simple. Rebecca gives the servant more than he asks for.

Ques. Is it the Spirit of grace to which you were previously referring?

J.T. I think it expresses humility in the servant. He is not asking for anything great, but he, is giving her an opportunity to show how liberal she is. It is a question of bringing out the assembly here. It is what the assembly is characterised by.

T.W. Does that explain why she appears to be very free to a mere stranger as he is?

J.T. I think so. She is seemly in every way; there is not a discrepancy in the whole proceeding, except in Laban. Everything is according to God, and all brings out the graces of the assembly, seen typically in this young woman. All is connected with the well, the use she makes of it, and her preparedness in view of this service.

W.R. Peter speaks of showing hospitality to one another without grudging. I suppose that is a feature that is developed here.

J.T. Yes; the liberality with which she acts; the man "was astonished at her, remaining silent, to know whether Jehovah had made his journey prosperous or not" (verse 21). What a beautiful spirit that is! And then it is said, "And it came to pass when the camels had drunk enough, that the man took a gold ring, of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands, ten shekels weight of gold, and said, Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee. Is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge? And she said to him, I am the daughter of Bethuel the son of Milcah, whom she bore to Nahor" (verses 22 - 24). Notice that! It is the sisterhood of the house of faith that is in mind. Typically, she understands that. It is to preclude any foreign mixture in marriage among believers. She is of the same family and line as Abraham. "And she said to him, There is straw, and also much provender with us; also room to lodge" (verse 25). She does not even go in to ask her father, mother, or brother. She is quite sure of her ground; that in her father's house can be furnished all that is needed for the servant of Abraham and his

camels as well. "And the man stooped, and bowed down before Jehovah, and said, Blessed be Jehovah, God of my master Abraham, who has not withdrawn his loving-kindness and his faithfulness from my master; I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren" (verses 26, 27). Well, we touch the top stone now; "my master's brethren"; and all centring in this young woman. It is a question of what culminates in the assembly.

W.G.T. Does this type show how the Spirit of God is the complete representation of the Deity? There is no doubt that the servant here represents Abraham in a very full way.

J.T. We have the Deity in type here. The servant; and first, the master in Abraham; and after that the master in Isaac -- the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. The Spirit thus maintains before us the Deity, either in the Father, or in the Son, or in Himself. He Himself being equal to this service. The great thought of the Trinity cannot be truly maintained, save by the Holy Spirit. It is not a matter of mere doctrine; it can be held and presented rightly only by the Holy Spirit.

A.B.P. The woman of John 4 said to the Lord that He had nothing to draw with. This type seems to stress not only the means of drawing, but the energy required for our appropriation.

W.B-w. There seems to be quite a distinction between the servant at the well and the servant in the house in this chapter. There is a great deal gone into in the house, which typifies the assembly in another sense.

J.T. "The house of my master's brethren". It involves order and family affection. As to this, Laban fully confirmed what Rebecca had said. He said to the servant, "Come in, blessed of Jehovah! Why standest thou outside? for I have prepared the house, and room for the camels. And the man came into the house" (verses 31, 32). The house is very prominent in this section.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (4)

Genesis 26:7 - 9, 23 - 33

J.T. Our subject, which has in mind Christ and the assembly, requires that much place should be given to Isaac and Rebecca; that there should be freshness in the saints as related to Christ. We have previously touched on Hagar and wells which related to her, in chapters 16 and 21, and also on the wells mentioned in chapter 24 in relation to Isaac and Rebecca. But it was only briefly that chapter 24 was considered, and it is one of the most important chapters entering into our subject. It was stressed that Hagar, whilst wells were made available to her, used one of them to minister to her son, but that she is not said to have appropriated them for herself, and in no way is she seen as characterised, typically, by appropriating the wells. Over against her is Rebecca, who represents in the fullest way the assembly as seen in relation to a well, and uses it bountifully in ministering to Abraham's servant and his camels. And then in the close of the chapter, Isaac, as Rebecca is approaching, is seen at the well Beer-lahai-roi. That was the first well that Hagar had to do with. Isaac is seen as coming from it, or as identified with it in a very special way, as if he had it in mind in view of Rebecca's arrival. The Holy Spirit should be appropriated so that the assembly should be in freshness. Our chapter now has in view the continuation of this added feature of chapter 24; and it is well to keep in mind that whilst Isaac is a type of Christ as the heavenly Man, it is Christ in relation to the testimony down here, rather than His place in heaven eternally, or even in the millennium.

A.R. Is freshness seen in Rebecca springing off the camel? She sprang off the camel and veiled herself. Does that suggest the spiritual agility of which you have been speaking?

J.T. Quite so. It is similar to what is said also of Achsah, denoting agility.

H.G.H. What is the connection with the subject, in the first two verses we read?

J.T. It is to bring out that whilst Isaac is a type of Christ, he is also a type of those who are responsible in the testimony; the first passage indicates the failure to bring forward the assembly as the bride of Christ. He failed in that. Chapter 24 shows what care was expended on securing her. It is of the utmost importance in the testimony, that the assembly should be recognised by those of us who are of it and in it as the spouse of Christ, not simply as a sister. Isaac only owns Rebecca as his sister, whereas the great point in chapter 24 is that she is his wife.

Ques. Would the failure be a lesson for us that we are not to ally ourselves with the Philistine element.

J.T. Well, Isaac is in a dangerous position here. The chapter shows that the influence was adverse and he was not immune from it; he partially succumbed to it. He denied his wife, like his father; Abraham denied Sarah; he denied her in her wifely relations to him. One of the greatest features of the present testimony is the assembly's relation to Christ. A great many christians do not go that far; they go as far as brethren, or family relationship -- brothers and sisters -- but not to the full thought of Christ and the assembly. Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32, whereas Isaac typically did not.

A.R. Does he represent the responsible element rather than a type of Christ?

J.T. That is what I was remarking. He is not a type of Christ in ignoring the assembly, but he is a type of many of us who are responsible in it; yet we ignore it.

A.N.W. Why do you suppose it is that we are more ready to acknowledge the brotherhood, so to speak, than we are the assembly?

J.T. Well, that is a question to put before each of our consciences. Why is it that we do not come out more completely in confessing our relation to Christ as His

bride? Not only that we are one of His, or that we are brothers or sisters, but linked up with Him in a marital sense. The enemy is specially against it.

F.H.L. What does Abimelech represent in chapters 20 and 26?

J.T. I think you see that while the Philistines had not come out in open military opposition, they were against Abraham. They had stopped up the well of Abraham. In chapter 21 we are told that: "Abraham reproved Abimelech because of a well of water that Abimelech's servants had violently taken away" (verse 25). And then we are told in chapter 26 that they had stopped up the wells that Abraham dug: "And all the wells that his father's servants had dug in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines stopped them and filled them with earth" (verse 15). That is one element of opposition, a deadly one too, to fill the wells with earth, so that there is no refreshment -- the Spirit is either grieved or quenched.

W.G.T. In what way are we to meet the Philistine element today? It seems as if Isaac had some fear as to it in not coming out fully and declaring his relation to his wife.

J.T. He clearly feared the Philistines. Abraham had contended with Abimelech earlier and Abimelech had said, "I do not know who has done this, neither hast thou told me of it, neither have I heard of it but today" (chapter 21: 26). And then we are told, "And Abimelech rose up, and Phichol the captain of his host, and returned into the land of the Philistines" (verse 32). Abraham's point was expressed in that he gave the king seven ewe-lambs: "And Abraham took sheep and oxen, and gave them to Abimelech; and both of them made a covenant. And Abraham set seven ewe-lambs of the flock by themselves. And Abimelech said to Abraham. What mean these seven ewe-lambs, these which thou hast set by themselves? And he said, That thou take the seven ewe-lambs of my hand, that they may be a

witness to me that I have dug this well" (verses 27 - 30). That is, Abraham displayed a truly Christ-like spirit -- seven ewe-lambs -- the Philistine was clearly devoid of that. Abraham would have this testimony, in the present he made to the Philistine, that he had dug this well; meaning that the well is the secret of the beautiful spirit Abraham manifested -- typified in these seven ewe-lambs. We need the well to maintain a right spirit. And then he called that place Beer-sheba, which would mean the well of the oath, or of the seven; that is, the well and "the seven" are linked together. It is a question of the spirit we are in, whereas the Philistine spirit is haughty and aggressive and unfair.

Ques. What is the thought of digging the well?

J.T. The removal of the earth. According to Numbers 21, the princes digged the well at the direction of the law-giver. It means that you remove what is hindering the Spirit. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live", Romans 8:13. The Spirit is life in us.

R.W.S. The answer Isaac gives to Abimelech is not exactly untruthful. He says, She is my sister. Is it to avoid reproach?

J.T. Well, he falls short of the full truth. That is always a result of the enemy's working -- that we do not state the full or distinctive truth at any given time. Typically, it was the great truth for the moment. From his father's experience, he ought to have known of this snare, because Abraham did the same thing, or worse, in Egypt, and God told Isaac here not to go into Egypt. He should not be in such a sphere as Egypt, but the Philistine element is as bad. The chapter says, "And there was a famine in the land, besides the former famine which had been in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went to Abimelech" (verse 1). Why did he go there? The link is clearly with the previous failure of Abraham, and yet he goes to Abimelech. Abraham went to Pharaoh. They both put themselves in dangerous positions.

The lesson is to avoid dangerous positions, which may be too much for us. In a way Rebecca was Isaac's sister, but that was not the whole truth. You do not introduce your wife as your sister when you are with her; it is a denial of the truth of the marital relationship.

J.S. We should know the link of relationship as brethren of Christ first.

J.T. Yes, but the wifely relation was specially important here. The sisterly relation could not cause persecution, whereas the marital might cost Isaac his life.

C.A.M. Do you think when a famine comes along, in any sense, there is a tendency with us to feel that we might get along on what we might call lower truth, whereas what we need is the truth that is nearest to the heart of Christ; that must have first place.

J.T. It is clearly the point here; the marriage had taken place. The whole of chapter 24 is devoted to that subject; the longest chapter, I suppose, in the book, and it is devoted to that particular subject; and now the enemy wants to overthrow that point -- wants to have it ignored -- and antitypically that is a most serious matter.

J.S. He would lower the standard.

J.T. Yes. It is not the whole truth. Anything short of the whole truth at any given time is to give the enemy an advantage.

A.N.W. The lover in Canticles would never stop at saying, My sister; the whole of his bearing is, My sister, my spouse. It is false to stop short of this.

J.T. "Spouse" is stressed; a sister first, meaning that marriage by a christian must be to a christian; between real christians in fellowship. It is important to establish that, that she is a sister; but she is a wife. That is the prime thought.

S.F. Is there anything in the fact that he did not want to die for her whereas the Lord did die for the assembly?

J.T. It shows that he feared and would evade what Christ underwent in love for the assembly. Thus Isaac is not a type of Christ here.

A.S. Would that be the working of natural instincts?

J.T. Well, it is; it is just cowardice, I would say, and a shameful sort of cowardice, that one denies his relationship with his wife, when it is the point that is stressed; especially the truth of Christ and the assembly.

Ques. Jehovah says, "Go not down to Egypt: dwell in the land that I shall tell thee of", Genesis 26:2. If we are subject to God, we will not go into a sphere of danger.

J.T. Quite so; Isaac "went to Abimelech". Why did he go there? Why did Abraham go to Pharoah? Why did David, later, go to the king of the Philistines, to Gath? They are all of a piece. It is a question of cowardice. We do not want to be occupied with any of these honoured men, but to inquire if we are in any way guilty of non-confession of the assembly's marital relation with Christ.

A.R. Do we take on marital relationship at the Supper?

J.T. Yes; that is what comes before us here, that there should be opportunity for what this word 'dallying' means. You would not be so familiar with a sister. It is based on a more familiar relationship; clearly marital relationship. There should be room for Christ in the assembly, in the service after the Lord's supper. The book of Canticles fills out the truth, in the Old Testament types, of what enters into the service of God in this respect; that is, "Go forth, daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the crown wherewith his mother crowned him in the day of his espousals, and in the day of the gladness of his heart", Song of Songs 3:11. There ought to be room for that; you can see it is nearest to the Lord's heart to have His spouse with Him.

It should be known that Rebecca is Isaac's wife. That is where Isaac was failing, and yet the truth comes out.

The Philistine king sees the relation between them manifested. But this should have been owned in Isaac's public relation. So it is, that Christ's marital relation with the assembly is witnessed at the Lord's supper. This is public, but the private reciprocation of affection between Christ and the assembly is not for Philistine eyes. Rebecca's veil (Genesis 24:65), indicates this. Her initial thought is that she is to be exclusively for Isaac.

H.G.H. Is the suggestion in the latter part of this section, that if we hide this relationship there is a danger of losing it?

J.T. Well, we do. Christendom has lost it, so that room is made for another -- the false bride: "Because she says in her heart, I sit a queen, and I am not a widow; and I shall in no wise see grief", Revelation 18:7. She has no shame at all, but the true wife is seen typically in Rebecca; she proved her qualities when she drew near to Isaac; she put a veil over her face, as if to reserve her attractiveness for him. But Isaac here is exposed to the Philistine eye; not that the Philistine is to blame, because he is in his own territory, and Isaac had come down to him. But then, if he is going there, why not confess the truth openly? Why use the word "sister" instead of "wife"? It is a matter of cowardice.

W.G.T. How do you place this dallying historically? Would you put that in the movement that commenced a hundred years ago and the increased knowledge of assembly status as believers moved out of sectarian conditions?

J.T. Well, the return to fellowship and the Lord's supper involved the confession of the truth openly. What came out in the revival was the full place of the Lord in heaven and the assembly as united to Him by the Spirit. It was openly confessed. If the dallying were, so to speak, to be seen, people would have to come to the meetings to see what that is, where this sort of thing goes on. It is no place for the Philistine at all.

C.A.M. Is there not a reluctance with many to make manifest, each in himself, what is so close to the heart of Christ? It is lack of courage, surely, otherwise there are many who would come into the good of the assembly position, do you not think?

J.T. It is lack of courage here, and the dallying goes on in unhallowed circumstances. It was out of its proper realm; he had gone to the Philistine king, so that the blame is entirely on Isaac.

J.S. He comes under the fear of man.

J.T. Clearly. The passage says the men of the place asked about his wife, and he said, She is my sister. When they asked about his wife, why not talk about his wife? If people make enquiry, faithfulness will lead us to state the whole truth. Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly".

E.S. An unbeliever coming in sees the place Christ has with His people and the place they have with Him.

J.T. Well, there it is. In the assembly the relationships between Christ and His own are seen. Rebecca covered her face in chapter 24, clearly to intimate that she was to be for Isaac. Well, why not confess what that implied? They did not ask him about his sister; they asked him about his wife. Clearly they thought she was his wife.

F.H.L. She was "very fair in countenance". The very thing he should have exulted in was the cause of his failure.

C.N. Is there teaching for us in the three persons: Abraham, Isaac, and David, as having failed when it was a question of public testimony?

J.T. Yes. There is a lesson in it as to whether we are cowardly or courageous in this great matter of Christ and the assembly. Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". It runs through the Scriptures. Isaac failed in that, although otherwise he is an outstanding type of Christ, as Rebecca is of the assembly.

J.S. Is it failure in headship?

J.T. It is failure in husbandship. The relationship of husband implies headship, too, but the point is whether she is his wife or sister. Many talk about being brethren, but how many insist on the relations with Christ and the assembly?

W.G.T. Why is it that this character of cowardice appeared in both Abraham and Isaac?

J.T. I suppose it is innate in all of us. The appeal is: "Be strong and very courageous", Joshua 1:7. That is said as Israel was entering upon the territory which the enemy especially claimed. What is specially opposed now is what the assembly is to Christ.

Now we must go on to see how Isaac was supported of God, notwithstanding his failure. We are told about the wells that the Philistines contended for, and that room is made for him. "And they dug another well, and they strove for that also; and he called the name of it Sitnah. And he removed thence and dug another well; and they did not strive for that. And he called the name of it Rehoboth, and said, For now Jehovah has made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land", Genesis 26:21, 22. That is, he is now emerging into the clear shining where he can boldly assert the truth. God made way for him, showing that at bottom he was right; but he was not courageous. And what follows brings out the whole truth -- he went up to Beer-sheba. Beer-sheba is "the well of the oath" -- involving God's faithfulness, as Genesis 26 shows. There Abraham called on the name of Jehovah, the Eternal God; he placed himself under divine protection there. The principle underlying Beer-sheba was thus made clear. In spite of his failure, and Abraham's too, God preserves him. Verse 12 says, "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold; and Jehovah blessed him". God was with him. And then in this contention about the wells, God makes room for him. If we fail in any way in this

great point of Christ and the assembly and get right as to it, God will be with us. So we have a hundredfold harvest here -- it is most remarkable!

Ques. Does that result from self-judgment?

J.T. It does indeed. You can conclude that Isaac judged himself, seeing he comes into this great blessing; and then room was made for him, because the word Rehoboth means broadways, that God makes room for us, as we come to acknowledge our faults and own the truth.

Ques. Does the first part of the chapter suggest the grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Well, if we disregard the assembly, and her relation to Christ, as His bride, I think we shall quench the Spirit; at any rate, He can then only operate on the line of our being brethren to one another, which is not the full level of the truth. The Spirit guides into all the truth.

C.A.M. Do you think the crises that come up every now and again, with Philistine elements, result in our getting clear of the conflict? The thing is settled, and the truth of the assembly, the Lord's rights, and what the assembly is to Him, are more precious to us than before.

J.T. Yes. And we see in these verses, how God is coming in and giving him a great harvest, and then giving him room. It is very inspiring. You see that God is for you, in spite of the weakness at the beginning.

A.B.P. Would you say that although Isaac had failed, and in that way left the way open for the quenching of the Spirit by the Philistines, the activities of the Spirit are now seen in using the opposition to bring about full recovery?

J.T. Yes. And what happened shows us the great place the idea of the well has; how much it was in Isaac's mind, and how much it was in the Philistine mind to stop it up. It is a real issue -- a conflict -- and finally Isaac reaches Rehoboth, as he names it; meaning

that God had given him room. Well, it is most blessed to be conscious that God has given you scope and the Philistine strives no more. And then Isaac moves away (verse 23), "he went up thence to Beer-sheba", and then, verse 33, he is in Beer-sheba. It is territory already secured for him by his father Abraham.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that though a believer may lose the conscious sense of freshness in his approach to God, the Spirit of God is still active through the very things that seem to be hindering, outwardly, to bring him back to freshness?

J.T. That is the lesson here, I am sure, and we shall see it finally established at Beer-sheba, because great stress is laid on the fact that it was said to Isaac, "We have found water. And he called it Shebah; therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day" (verse 33). That is the final thing reached in this section, Beer-sheba being a place of divine security. It is known territory as chapter 21 shows. There is no change in the Eternal God. Abraham had called on Him there.

J.S. Is the border suggestive?

J.T. Yes, it is the southern border of the land, but it is in the land, and so Abraham calls it Beer-sheba, the well of the oath; but as "that place". He did not use the word "city", but now Isaac coming to it, suggests that it is a point of great importance that we have arrived at; the idea of a city, in relation to the well. It is one of the most distinguished of the cities seen in Genesis.

H.G.H. And as he reached it, "Jehovah appeared to him the same night" (verse 24), as if there is the suggestion that he knew the place. As in such circumstances we know what it is for God to come in, and we know the place of contact with Him is at the well.

J.T. Quite so; the passage says he went up thence to Beer-sheba -- a very definite move -- and Jehovah appeared to him the same night, as much as to say there is not a minute lost when we arrive at the right spot in spiritual progress. "I am the God of Abraham thy father:

fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake. And he built an altar there, and called upon the name of Jehovah" (verses 24, 25). Now he is on the heavenly line. The worship of God is resumed, as it were, and all is linked with Abraham, the great source of promise. We are on sure ground now. That is what Shebah means; we are on a sure footing, a place of covenant -- the well of the oath.

W.G.T. Did you have in mind the heavenly city when you spoke of Beer-sheba?

J.T. Yes. It is said of Abraham, "he waited for the city which has foundations, of which God is the artificer and constructor", Hebrews 11:10. Abraham did not call the place a city; it is not called a city in relation to him, but he had the city in his heart, and Beer-sheba is one of the features of it. The idea of covenant enters into this city; it bears on the heavenly city. Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba after Isaac was received back from the dead, in figure.

W.G.T. Do you have in mind the millennial thought or the eternal thought of the city?

J.T. Well, of the millennial city it is said that God and the Lamb are there. Here the idea of a city is beginning to take form in the heart and mind of faith. The thoughts begin with Abraham; but now they come out in connection with Isaac. And the well is the prominent thought; Beer-sheba is the well of the oath. So that when he comes there he builds an altar, and he calls upon the name of Jehovah, and he pitches his tent there. That is, he is a true pilgrim now. And Isaac's servants dig a well. Notice that; as if the idea of the well is essential to all this. It runs right through, and Beer-sheba is the culminating thought -- we have already touched on it -- the idea of a city in connection with God. We may say that now the idea of the covenant and the oath is connected with God.

J.S. Would it fit in with John 4?

J.T. Well, the well is there, as we noted previously. The point to see here is how Isaac is progressing, although having disowned his relations with his wife. If God has recovered us, as having failed, we can go on and He is with us, but we must not lower the standard. Maintain it, and speak of it. Keep on speaking about it, and then speak about it in relation to the faithfulness of God. Beer-sheba represents this, involving His care and protection. It is where God protects us.

C.A.M. I suppose it is necessary for us to understand this wifely idea in the Lamb's wife as connected with the suffering One; otherwise we should never get help on the idea of the city. They are bound up together.

J.T. Quite so; it is the Lamb's wife; He is the Sufferer. The heavenly city comes into view in Revelation. I believe Beer-sheba is this in embryo; because it is typically where God secures everything; where all the promises are secured. So that when Jacob was going down to Egypt he rested in Beer-sheba and offered sacrifices to the God of his father Isaac. And God said to him, "I am the God of thy father". It is Isaac -- not Abraham -- meaning that Isaac represents Christ risen from among the dead in whom every promise is yea and amen. We are not afraid of circumstances any more. It is an immense thing to get hold of. And so, after it is stated that whatever promises of God there are, they are yea and amen in Christ, it is said that He who establishes us in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts (2 Corinthians 1:20 - 22).

Rem. These people are coming to Isaac.

J.T. That is the next thing, showing that he is advancing in strength. "And Abimelech, and Ahuzzath his friend, and Phichol the captain of his host, went to him from Gerar" (Genesis 26:26). There are three of them here; the king himself and the captain of his host, and his friend -- the royal side, the social side and the

military side; they have all come to visit Isaac. But he is man enough for them now. He is not going to be overawed by them any more. So he says "Why are ye come to me, seeing ye hate me, and have driven me away from you?" (verse 27). He is not a bit afraid of them now. He is not afraid to confess that Rebecca is his wife now, showing he has advanced in courage, and strength.

W.G.T. I suppose the enemy had in mind that Gerar should be the city rather than Beer-sheba. The Philistines would like Gerar to be the centre.

J.T. Yes. The point in Beer-sheba is that it is the well of the oath. Hebron refers to what is before the world; Beer-sheba refers to what has come in since the world. It has foundational features which are of God. It is morally greater than the world and it makes the believer greater than the world. I am not afraid of the world. This is seen in Isaac here. The idea of the seven ewe-lambs enters into it. They represent the spirit of Christ in the believer. Isaac is not overcome here.

W.R. Would this be the position of the Philadelphian saints? "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God", Revelation 3:12.

J.T. That is right; overcoming is a principle in this chapter. Isaac challenges the Philistines -- Why are you come to me? When Abimelech came to Abraham, Ahuzzath was not with him; he had the captain of the host with him then, but now there are two with him -- Phichol, captain of the host, and his friend. Now he is on the social line. The combination of three here is intended to influence Isaac, but Isaac is too great for them now; he has the full support of God. God has made room for him. He has the well and the altar and the tent. So he makes a covenant with them that he will do them no wrong, and sends them away. "And they departed from him in peace" (verse 31). And then (verse 32), "It came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants

came, and told him concerning the well that they had dug, and said to him, we have found water". This is an additional thought to Rehoboth. This is another well. Isaac is advancing in strength, and God is supporting him. The more we advance, the more we shall realise God's support. That is the way the whole truth is kept in view. We are not ashamed to confess it.

A.R. Would you say that the scripture, "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord" (1 Corinthians 1:9) -- expresses the idea of Beer-sheba?

J.T. That is the first intimation you have of it in Corinth, and another is in the second epistle: "Now God is faithful, that our word to you is not yea and nay. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus) did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen", 2 Corinthians 1:18 - 20. That is Beer-sheba; that is what the Corinthians needed, and that is what we all need, especially if we fail to confess Christ and the assembly. We are re-assured as we come into the sense of the faithfulness of God. He never fails. Let us be overcomers, therefore, in confessing the truth. The newly-dug well (Genesis 26:32), is to support us in this position.

Ques. Would you refer to Isaac's servants here as those who are serviceable to Christ in the assembly?

J.T. Just so; typically, they are thoroughly in sympathy with the truth for the moment. They dug the well to support the great principle that had come in; namely, Christ and the assembly, in Isaac and Rebecca.

A.A.T. To whom do we confess Christ and the assembly? On the gospel platform we preach Christ as a Person, as Head.

J.T. To those who may enquire, as instanced in our chapter. The Lord Jesus is our Example in this as in all else. He witnessed "the good confession before Pontius

Pilate". For this we need the Spirit. The wells stopped by the Philistines, typically point to Isaac's weakness. As a type of Christ, Isaac was making much of Beer-lahai-roi as Rebecca approached (chapter 24: 62), pointing to the need of a well, so that the truth as to her should be maintained; now, as a type of a believer, he is wanting in that, and he denies that she is his wife. Opportunity of confessing comes as a person asks about the meetings, or asks about what you are going on with. Have you a clergyman? Have you a conference to govern you? How are you governed? How do you get on as to judicial matters? well, such enquiry brings up the whole question of Christ and the assembly. Even in regard to money contributed, the assembly is brought in. The messengers are Christ's glory; they are messengers of the assemblies (2 Corinthians 8:16 - 24). The assembly comes to light there, like Abigail, who was a woman of affairs, as was Lydia, and Phoebe also. All these instances are to bring out what the assembly is. The husband is known in the gates through her. Proverbs 31 is to bring this out, what the assembly is in the absence of Christ; that the wifely conditions and relations continue. The household and all pertaining to it manifest that she is the wife, and she has all the means of the husband, so as to have the household in proper condition; to clothe and to feed and to do all that enters into family comfort and dignity. Well, you can tell an inquirer all that. And we do not need a bishop, in the ordinary sense of the word; we do not need a conference, like the Methodists, or a synod like the Presbyterians. We do not need a pope like the Roman Catholics. Christians do not need any of these. It is a question of Christ and the assembly; it is a question of how the assembly can carry on in the interests of Christ. The New Testament -- especially the epistles to the Corinthians and those to Timothy and Titus -- show how the government of the assembly is maintained, and how the gifts for her up-building are furnished. The functionaries and governing

institutions we have referred to, are not found there at all, and of course, not needed. However we view this great matter, the Spirit is absolutely essential. This is particularly seen in Isaac and Rebecca as types of Christ and the assembly.

C.N. So the locusts have no king, and they go in bands.

A.Cr. Peter says in the first epistle, "but sanctify the Lord the Christ in your hearts, and be always prepared to give an answer to every one that asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear" (chapter 3: 15).

J.T. Just so; you have a right answer for any questions asked; to "every one that asks you to give an account".

R.L.P. What are you referring to as Isaac's confession?

J.T. What he failed to confess, is what we have been dwelling on. They inquired about his wife and he did not confess the truth. If people inquire as to how we get on without the things that other nominal christians have, you confess the whole position of Christ and the assembly. The assembly is well furnished down here in the absence of Christ; she is called His wife in Revelation, one in whom He confides. She carries on in His absence and the truth is maintained; the order of the house of God is maintained. That is what I mean by confession of the truth seen here.

A.N.W. It is a divinely justified position; it is not of man. However showy the human arrangement may be, it is not divinely justified. I am sure nothing but the sense of our relation to Christ in the assembly could hold us in the dignity that is seen in Isaac as these three men approach him. We would go down before the power of the world if devoid of the sense of our relations with the assembly.

J.T. The well is brought forward to show what we need to support us in this position. If we make any statement as to how we get on, someone may say, I will

come and see. Then, if we are not together in the power of the Spirit, the truth is again denied; hence the well is brought in so that we should not be weak; that we should be in vigour as functioning in the assembly.

W.G.T. Witnessing a good confession before Pontius Pilate would include our brethren who are facing the non-combatant services of all governments.

J.T. Quite so; that is part of it. This is the full truth; the full Ephesian truth we are dealing with bringing out what the position is as over against the false system that Revelation contemplates. Over against the wife of the Lamb, you have the Babylonish system; she says, "I sit a queen and I am not a widow". She is seen in the wilderness. What does that mean? That is where there are no springs of water; there is no support at all. She has to rely upon human contrivances and human corruption, whereas the heavenly city has the Spirit, hence the wonderful features displayed in her.

A.B.P. Would you say that in Luke 7, where springs of water are seen as coming from the woman herself, that the Lord Jesus, unlike Isaac, claimed her? The wifely link, so to speak, is publicly acknowledged there.

J.T. Quite so: He says, she loves. The assembly is there basically, and so too in the next chapter in Luke -- the woman with the issue -- virtue goes out of Him to heal her. That is a suggestion of union; that the assembly is out of Christ, and so fit to be united to Him. He addresses her as "daughter".

W.R. So the position is: "the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth", 1 Timothy 3:15.

J.T. That is right. How much is essential to maintain that; how necessary that one should know how to behave oneself there! We shall see that confirmed in this chapter, "And it came to pass the same day, that Isaac's servants came, and told him concerning the well that they had dug, and said to him, We have found water. And he called it Shebah; therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day" (verses 32, 33). It is not only

Shebah; it is Beer-sheba; it is the well of the oath, where we are on sure ground, the ground of God's support. The well is the refreshing side.

J.S. We should say to our fellow Christians, Come and see?

J.T. Well, that is right; the next thing is what do they see. If we have not the well, they will not see much. We may go on in a routine way, but it is the well -- the Spirit -- that gives freshness and power to the meetings.

A.R. What you say is practical. We might say we need the Spirit of God for our reading meetings and for assembly service, but really we need the Spirit of God in our care meetings too. It makes it very practical, does it not?

J.T. Quite so, freshness is the point in these readings. It is the well -- the idea of the well running through in relation to the assembly. It is that our meetings are to be fresh; and in view of this, John says, "Come and see". It is a point the apostle makes, and if people come, they see that there is freshness and intelligence and brotherly love amongst us.

Ques. In Acts 20 it says they went down with him to the ship. Is the full thought seen there, in relation to Paul and the brethren?

J.T. That is the truth. It is a chapter of love. The first verse says that Paul embraced the Ephesians and the last verse says that they fell on his neck and kissed him. That shows that there was the reciprocation of holy love, to fill out what we are saying. Acts 20 is a love chapter and love must be sustained by the Spirit -- 'love in the Spirit', Colossians 1:8.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (5)

Genesis 29:1 - 20; Hosea 12:12; Romans 15:18, 19

J.T. Our present consideration should take us to Jacob. In the last reading it was pointed out that Isaac is a type of Christ as the heavenly Man, but as occupied with the testimony now; Rebecca comes in in that connection, not as taken to heaven literally, but to Sarah's tent. Typically she represents the assembly taking Israel's place in the testimony. Isaac typifies Christ as the heavenly Man, who was not to leave Canaan. Those types therefore contemplate the present time; the testimony standing in relation to Christ and the assembly -- the assembly, herself heavenly, seen as here on earth, but Christ in heaven. So that the dispensation takes on that character -- it is heavenly.

We have now another view of Christ and the assembly. Jacob, who has already left the land of Canaan, took a long journey; according to Hosea, and indeed, according to this section of Genesis, he has taken a long journey for his wife. "And Jacob fled into the country of Syria, and Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep", Hosea 12:12. He suggests Christ in activity and in journeyings. It is said he fled, which would mean there was hostility; he fled from Esau. Paul said, of himself, to the Thessalonians, that he had been driven out; but, according to Romans 15, he was journeying to preach the gospel; and this was to secure the assembly for Christ.

Our chapter speaks of a well. It is said that Jacob looked -- "Jacob continued his journey, and went into the land of the children of the east. And he looked, and behold, there was a well in the fields", Genesis 29:1, 2. Our subject is very much in mind in this section. He looked, and there was a well; he saw the well, and acted in relation to it.

J.T.Jr. Is the activity you speak of to be in the saints after the pattern of Christ?

J.T. That would be assumed. Paul presented himself as a model. He said, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ", 1 Corinthians 11:1. So that, as Paul stresses, activity would be in us in the power of the Spirit.

A.N.W. Is there anything in the Lord's personal service here on earth which is akin to Jacob's movement here?

J.T. Matthew, in chapter 16: 13, presents Him at Caesarea-Philippi, where the gentile world would be in mind; there He spoke of the assembly. It carried a wider thought than the remnant of Israel.

J.S. What would the three flocks represent as lying by the well?

J.T. Persons in need of water; but they have to wait for it until others come. So that the need was not immediately met. The scene represents what is current about us -- officialism; the drinking cannot take place until all the flocks come, whereas in the ministry of Christ need was met immediately. "If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink", John 7:37. There was no delay at all. True service would meet need as it exists. The Jews would limit the Lord's wonderful healing services to the six working days (Luke 13:14).

A.R.S. Would the looking around and seeing the well give the idea that we have to use our spiritual eyesight and see where the Spirit is?

J.T. Yes. It seems to fit in accurately, from a spiritual standpoint, with our subject; that is, the idea of wells or springs in relation to Christ and the assembly. In this chapter we see a condition in Syria that Jacob found; the well was there, but under these restrictions. Jacob pays particular attention to it and acts, indeed, at once, as Rachel comes with her father's flock.

A.B.P. When the Lord Jesus came into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon (Mark 7), it would seem as though He

lifted the stone from the well's mouth, in principle. The woman comes into the blessing ahead of time, in a sense.

J.T. Yes; the prominence of the feminine thought there helps; both the mother and the daughter were affected. The feminine thought there would, I think, convey what is before us; that He had the assembly in mind, only certain conditions were needed, and these conditions were found in the woman. Her faith was great, the Lord says, which idea belongs to the assembly.

A.R. Is there anything in the fact that Jacob was sent by Isaac to look for a wife? Instead of finding a wife immediately, he finds a well.

J.T. Yes. He looked and saw a well. The scripture does not say he looked for it, but he looked, and that is what he saw, as if that idea must precede the thought of the assembly.

C.A.M. The labours of the apostle Paul in such an extended way were an extension of the journeyings of Christ. Would it be right to say that? And that they come down to the present moment?

J.T. I think that is right. The two instances we have cited bear it out: the one at Caesarea-Philippi, which is a distance out, as you might say, towards the gentiles. Its dual name would indicate that -- Caesarea-Philippi; and then the Syrophenician woman comes into view in the borders of Tyre and Sidon. She was an original Canaanite, but such as would form the assembly.

C.A.M. The apostle functioning among the saints would be the masculine side of the truth, or the ministry side, to secure the feminine side, the assembly.

J.T. That is right. Paul represents the ministry, and he speaks of "journeyings oft". It was the spirit of Christ operating in him with this in view, to secure what the Lord sought.

A.N.W. Did he have something of that in mind when he spoke of filling up of the sufferings of Christ for His body's sake?

J.T. Yes. It would bring in the fulness of what the Lord sought. Sufferings in the assembly would be essential to her formation for Him; so that she is the Lamb's wife, which would mean that she is the wife of the Sufferer, and she herself is a sufferer, which is a matter to be taken to heart in these last days; "And I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly", Colossians 1:24. What is behind in respect of sufferings is being forced upon many of our brethren, and, perhaps, will be on us through present circumstances. At least, if not literally, it is in spirit, and I think that even in that way the assembly is being prepared for translation.

W.B-w. Do you then look at Jacob as a type of Paul moving in the power of the Spirit here looking for the assembly? I have in mind that scripture in Romans already mentioned: "So that I, from Jerusalem, and in a circuit round to Illyricum, have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ", Romans 15:19.

J.T. Yes, and for that the well is essential. That is what Jacob saw and took notice of, and even admonished the persons there about it. He then watered a flock; but not until Rachel came, meaning that an incentive for love was there, although she is still only regarded as in family relation. She is only treated as a sister or cousin so far, but she is potentially what he was seeking.

W.B-w. There was not much movement at this well until he came.

J.T. No. Our enquiry now is, whether there is movement with us, those of us who are on the main line, so to speak, as has been said; whether we are active in journeyings for Christ's sake.

J.S. Would the anti-type of this be seen in the Acts of the Apostles?

J.T. Yes. It is seen especially in Paul as has been said. He had travelled in a circuit to Illyricum. He purposed visiting Rome and even Spain. Going to Spain

from Jerusalem was a great journey; indeed, Spain was the utmost limits of the west at that time.

W.G.T. "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matthew 16:13), would indicate that the Lord's Person is to be apprehended as the assembly comes into view?

J.T. Just so. Christ and the assembly. Christ first always.

A.A.T. What would you say the stone in our chapter represented?

J.T. It is right in its place; it is a protection for the water, but it required to be removed in order that the water should be procured. I suppose it would imply the water was not open or exposed; it was covered; but the point that Jacob makes is, Why do you not remove it now? There are flocks right here; why do you not remove it and water them? That is the point he makes. Why is the Spirit of God telling us about Jacob's exercises at this time if it be not to bring before us Christ in this relation? He is before us here in His activities and journeyings, in order to secure what He came for; what He gave Himself for; and we are reminded that the well, that is, the Spirit, must be in the front in our services if they are to be patterned after Christ's. The point is illustrated in Isaac coming from the well Beer-lahai-roi as Rebecca came into view. It is the same thought carried through.

Ques. Is there a correspondence between Acts 16 and this, when Paul went outside of the gate by the river, where it was the custom to pray? Paul went there soon after reaching Philippi.

J.T. That is it; the river is there, running water. The roots of that assembly would be by the river; a good idea. That is where our roots should be, drawing sap in that way, drawing refreshment from running water.

A.B.P. In each of the scriptures that have been before us, the well seems to be linked on with a locality. Does

Jacob looking and seeing a well, suggest the place the Spirit has in localities?

J.T. I think the locality is stressed in view of what may be developed there. The assembly in its administrative feature involves localities; so that it becomes a question of how the Spirit operates, especially in view of the assembly here in testimony. Hence we have it at Jerusalem strikingly; we have it in Samaria, and we have it at Corinth, and we have it at Ephesus. These are all representative of the local aspect of the assembly's position. The Spirit has to be apprehended in each locality.

F.H.L. It says the well was in the fields. Is that a likely place to look for it?

J.T. I think it would be, because it is a question of where the flocks are. There are three of them here; three flocks of sheep were lying by it. They were there, meaning there was potential fruitfulness there. Only, the water was denied them for the moment, and that fact discredited the service -- the flocks had to wait. The gospels show that the Lord always met need promptly.

A.R. Perhaps the conditions that Paul found at Ephesus were like this. He found twelve men there, but they were deficient in relation to the Spirit, and he says to them, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Acts 19:2. He was concerned as to the development of the feminine features.

J.T. That is good. He wanted to bring this out, to bring the Spirit into evidence. He evidently had known that the work of God was in these men, but the point is, Have you received the Spirit? -- that is what we are speaking of. He had the same thought as Jacob. They did not know about it; it was his concern, and he removed the stone, and the Spirit came in; the obstruction was in themselves, in their ignorance, and he removed it. Thus the water flowed.

J.S. What is involved in verse 8 of our chapter: "... until all the flocks are gathered together"?

J.T. It is the clerical idea; restrictions to reduce work. Christ met need at once. There was no delay at all. John says, "Jesus stood and cried saying, If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink", John 7:37. There was deep feeling in the Lord's cry.

A.N.W. Even though He had to say to the woman previously mentioned, "I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house" (Matthew 15:24), still He waited to bless her.

J.T. That was a question of removing the stone. Her assumption that she could speak to Him as the Son of David meant there was something to be dealt with in her, as there was something to be dealt with in the men of Ephesus and the converts in Samaria. The removal of the stone means that what may have been the hindrance in us is dealt with. From the divine side, the death of Christ had to take place to remove the stone.

C.A.M. "And he looked, and behold ..." (verse 2). Do you think our progress assembly-wise would be according to what we see, in this sense? Indications from God would come to us from time to time if we were really on this line.

J.T. Yes; the idea of divine things coming into our view as we progress, is constant in Scripture. The gospel necessarily enters into the removal of the stone, because the difficulty is likely to be in ourselves, perhaps through defective teaching we have imbibed; that is prevalent around us now; it is like the twelve men in Ephesus. The teaching was defective, and they must have been negligent themselves, because John the baptist spoke about the Holy Spirit, and they said they had not even heard if He was come, so that the difficulty was in themselves.

W.B-w. The Galatians had begun in the Spirit, but there were those who would keep the stone on the well's mouth, but Paul was endeavouring to take it off.

J.T. Just so. Just as the Philistines stopped the wells; bad teachers were doing that. So that you see more and

more as we look into this matter that, generally, the well is stopped in christendom. People have to wait for the clerical arrangements. They have to wait for the official personage or whatever he may represent.

J.S. So that in John 7 the stone is removed by the Lord Himself, would you say, and then the rivers flow: "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (verse 38).

J.T. John 7 is, of course, a counterpart of John 4. John 7 adds the word "receive". The Lord, there, speaks about coming and drinking: "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive" (verse 39). Receiving is a very important word in regard of this subject; not whether the Spirit is given to you, but whether you have received Him; receiving involves appreciation.

J.H.H. In one sense, would you say, the Lord removed the stone at the pool of Bethesda? The people were waiting until the moving of the waters, but the Lord would present Himself to the man there.

J.T. In that sense, He met the need at once; that man had been there thirty-eight years and the angel had come down every year at a certain time and troubled the water, but the man could not get in because he had not power; others got in before him. The man's need is met immediately by the Lord.

R.W.S. The first thing Jacob does after watering the sheep is to kiss Rachel, and then he lifts up his voice and weeps.

J.T. That is a beautiful point reached in the narrative. I think before we reach it and dwell upon it, we ought to note the exercises as to this well and why the persons present were not acting. It is said, "And a great stone was at the mouth of the well. And when all the flocks were gathered there, they rolled the stone from the mouth of the well" (verses 2, 3). Notice, they did it; but it had to be done; yet not until all the flocks were gathered together. That was the custom that governed

Syria; there was no question about it; "They rolled the stone from the mouth of the well, and watered the sheep, and put the stone again on the mouth of the well in its place". So far so good, but the sheep had to wait, however thirsty they were, until this time came. It was not, so to speak, "the time appointed by the Father"; it was the time appointed by the people of that place; a principle of their own, to save their energy. It was just to save energy. It was not love. And then Jacob said to them, "My brethren, whence are ye? And they said, Of Haran are we" (verse 4). He is identifying them. That is the next thing. Before dealing with defects, we have to know the persons we are dealing with, and what their principles are, and their ways too, which is an important matter. "And he said to them, Do ye know Laban the son of Nahor? And they said, We do know him. And he said to them, Is he well? And they said, He is well". Rachel is to be the immediate link. The family link is known to be there, but who the persons of the family are, is not yet known. What answers to this now, is found in a "son of peace"; you get in touch with him and stay there. The people knew Laban, which is good, so far. We can see that certain social links exist; whether they are pure assembly links is the point. They knew Laban, and they knew the state of his health, and then they say, "And behold, there comes Rachel his daughter with the sheep" (verse 6). They knew her too. There is a good general condition, potentially. It is an opening for spiritual operations. Then Jacob comes in with his services, for that is how it has to be regarded. He says (verse 7), "Behold, it is yet high day" (that is noon); "it is not time that the cattle should be gathered together" (the cattle would mean larger beasts), "water the sheep, and go, feed them". He is a real shepherd; he is a live-stock man, which is typically what a man would be who can serve the Lord. The Israelites were that characteristically, and that was an abomination to the Egyptians. So he says, "Water the sheep, and go,

feed them". That is a word of admonition, for they were defective in their way of doing things. Their principles and methods were not right. That is the ground he takes. It is instructive to see that Jacob was a live-stock man; so was Solomon. Solomon could instruct you about all these creatures; and so could Adam; and, clearly, the Israelites carried down the thought of the importance of cattle. They were shepherds, bearing the character of Christ. The Lord knows the living, their different features. But they say in reply to Jacob, "We cannot until all the flocks are gathered together", (they are again asserting their principles) "and they roll the stone from the mouth of the well, and we water the sheep" (verse 8).

And now Rachel comes. That is the crux of the matter. He does not offer to help them at all, or take the stone away, until she comes, because that is what he is seeking, the family connection. So that when Rachel comes, he moves; and that brings out what is before us; what the assembly is to Christ. I am not saying that Rachel is exactly the assembly, but she is potentially Jacob's spouse, and hence answers to the assembly here. In result, however, Leah is the type of the assembly.

J.S. What would you say about the fact that she is a shepherdess?

J.T. She corresponds to Jacob. So, "Rachel came with her father's sheep, for she was a shepherdess. And it came to pass when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban his mother's brother, and the sheep of Laban his mother's brother, that Jacob went near and rolled the stone from the mouth of the well" (verse 10). Notice, it is only the family link so far, not marital yet. Rachel is one of his brethren; that is what is meant. It is the family link in activity, which is an immense thing; and we know how enjoyable it is when we really understand our relations to each other in a family sense; that is, as brethren.

C.A.M. Do you think it would be an encouragement in our local settings that in the unfolding of the truth, the most precious thing does not always appear at the first. You might have a great desire for assembly conditions, but these are reached step-by-step.

J.T. Yes; we learn in part, and 1 Corinthians shows that the state of the assembly affects what is ministered. I think the chapter is most interesting; spiritually accurate as to the Spirit of Christ in seeking what is represented here. Jacob is seeking a wife. He is representative of Christ in seeking the assembly, going for it Himself.

W.B-w. Is it also a question of seeking assembly material in a locality?

J.T. That is how the truth works out. This is seen throughout. As Paul is in Corinth, the Lord tells him He has much people there, and in the course of his ministry, Paul espoused them to one Man -- as a chaste virgin to Christ. The man in John 9 had neighbours, and he has a father and a mother. That is, there was social material there, but before the idea of the sheep comes into evidence he is cast out. Well, Rachel here is not cast out; there is no hostility at all to her; it is just a position that is neighbourly. Jacob makes a difference between Rachel and all the others, for when he sees her and the sheep, he removes the stone and waters the flock. His heart is moved in family feelings and affections.

W.B-w. He says, "My brethren" -- that should bring to light something in the locality.

J.T. I think it is a suggestion of the present profession. They are not looked at as heathen. Addressing them as brethren would promote general confidence. They are looked at as his family links, but then there is one man there about whom he is thinking and whose name he mentions. He does not ask after anybody else but Laban. He asks after his health.

A.N.W. What would you say as to the Lord's supper conducted only on brotherly lines, and not reaching the marital side?

J.T. If the state of the meeting were right, the deficiency being due to ignorance, the Lord, I am sure, would accept it; but if there were independency and refusal of the truth of Christ and the assembly, you could not have part in it. If we do not bring the assembly into the Supper, we lose the force of it. It is a question too of the Spirit. If you do not make room for the Spirit, you will never get the right thought of the Supper, or of the assembly.

A.Pf. Does Jacob change the custom of the place?

J.T. That is, in principle, what he does; we cannot say his example was followed. He admonished them, but he also proceeds to do what he indicated should be done as Rachel comes; but he did not water the other flocks; it is a question of the family, and there was no doubt as to this in her case. If persons are christians they are brethren, and they should get the water, that is, get the Holy Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Is there not a connection between the changing of the water to wine in John 2, and the healing of the nobleman's son in John 4 as having to do with the family?

J.T. The family thought is clearly in view in the case of the nobleman, and then there is also a connection with the Spirit in that chapter -- the thought of living water comes in before the narrative of the nobleman. The Lord calls his child a son, indicating dignity in the family. "Himself and his whole house" believed. The water in John 2 is purifying water, but it becomes wine; what purifies me becomes wine in me; it occasions joy. The drinking water affords much instruction as coming between these two signs in Cana of Galilee. John makes more of water than any of the other evangelists.

C.A.M. As to the matter of addressing people or regarding them as brethren, I suppose when Saul of Tarsus was secured, the way it took place would impress upon him this brotherly idea before he found himself part of the company. Do you think that would be a sort of indication to him as to how to act in his christian days?

J.T. Just so. And then the water of purification is brought in. That is, Ananias says, "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away", Acts 22:16. That is the water of purification; but then he should get the Holy Spirit, which would be drinking water.

C.A.M. That is a great help, because the signal way in which baptism is applied to the apostle Paul might first seem a little strange, but as you look at it in that connection, it all forms part of a whole process.

J.T. It does, indeed. So that the order here is very instructive. As soon as he sees Rachel and her father's flock -- she herself being a shepherdess -- verse 10 says, "Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the mouth of the well, and watered the sheep of Laban his mother's brother". The family link is the point. Then it says, "And Jacob kissed Rachel"; this does not go beyond the family link; brothers and sisters, or cousins. And then it says he "lifted up his voice and wept". He was thoroughly affected. He fled to the country of Syria for a wife; he was under pressure at the outset, but now his affections are aroused. He is not now thinking of Esau's hostility; he is affected by what he finds, because that is what he is looking for; family affection, which is an immense thing for us to understand. That is what we find in meetings such as these; they involve family affection and then the corporate idea; what we are to Christ. After this strong expression of affection "Jacob told Rachel that he was a brother of her father, and that he was Rebecca's son" (verse 12). He is asserting what he is to them; not to the neighbours, but to them. Typically, he has found christians; that is what is meant.

The Lord is seeking them today; those that are His own. The Lord knows those that are His; and, as we are usable, He is using us to find them. As in this service these traits of Himself, seen in Jacob, work out through us.

A.R. The Lord Jesus said to Paul, "I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10. Paul would have to find them, would he not?

J.T. They were not yet members of the family, so that they were only potentially His people, but there is a real family link here. The stress is on Laban, Rebecca's brother, and that Jacob is Rebecca's son, and Rachel, Laban's daughter. It is a family picture and Jacob is thoroughly in it.

J.S. Does progress in the testimony result from securing material for the assembly?

J.T. Typically, that is the idea here. Jacob informs Rachel about himself, that it may be clear that the family links are there. The next thing is that Rachel ran and told her father, and verse 13 says, "And it came to pass when Laban heard the tidings of Jacob his sister's son" (notice these family terms), "that he ran to meet him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and brought him to his house; and he told Laban all these things. And Laban said to him, Thou art indeed my bone and my flesh. And he abode with him a month's time", that is, with the family; it refers to what we are to each other as brethren.

W.R. Would you look at Jacob in the light of John's testimony? "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", John 3:29. He seems to move in his affections as a bridegroom towards a bride, and he uses the family in that way.

J.T. That is in the distance as yet. This paragraph does not go beyond the family. Rachel is of the same family as Jacob; that is clear. It is most important, in the work of God, to make clear that all true Christians are brethren, whatever their associations; thus the workman

can say, "Be as I am, for I also am as ye", Galatians 4:12. As this is understood and accepted, assembly truth can be introduced.

W.B-w. From verse 4 onward, all the questions that Jacob raises are to find the family, and put the Syrians where they should be.

J.T. That is the idea exactly. The Syrians are eliminated, and now it is the family -- Rebecca's brother. And Laban goes so far as to say to Jacob, "Thou art indeed my bone and my flesh". Still, that is not on marital lines, because it is a man and his nephew.

A.R. When we sit down at the Lord's supper, the underlying condition is that we love one another.

J.T. Some say, We are going to meet the Lord, but the fact is, we are going to meet one another first. "We being assembled to break bread", Acts 20:7.

G.V.D. Is there the family line in John 1? Andrew first finds his brother Simon.

J.T. Yes. He took him to Jesus.

A.N.W. Our slowness to arrive at the assembly relation is because we do not rightly value the family relation.

J.T. That is the difficulty all around, the want of family feelings. We would speak well of one another if we accepted the family status and the family relation. We are brethren. That underlies unity.

J.S. Do you get the family link in John 20"But go to my brethren and say to them ..." (verse 17?).

J.T. That is on a higher plane. That comes in a little later. We are now speaking of what we are as brethren in a public sense as christians. The Lord says, "And all ye are brethren", Matthew 23:8. That is the position here before the world. We are all brethren.

F.H.L. In chapter 24, Laban ran to the well to meet Abraham's servant, and here he runs to meet Jacob.

J.T. There is not much depth in him, you know, but he represents what is in the mind of the Spirit here. He is a father to Rachel and Leah, and he is a

brother to Rebecca, and Jacob is Rebecca's son; so that the family link is established. That is all that is necessary.

W.B-w. Verse 9 reads, "While he was still speaking to them ..." The speaking brings to light what is sought.

J.T. Quite so; going to a place you look for this element. We have known of a case where there was some apparent interest and it was suggested that a brother go and stay there, and find what was there.

A.N.W. Perhaps those of the family are not brought to light because the real brotherly link is not recognised.

J.T. That was the real difficulty in all the divisions that have taken place amongst us; the want of reality in the profession of family relationship. Scripture says a brother is born for adversity, and so we ought to afford protection and general care for each other.

A.R. God said to Moses that Aaron, when he saw Moses, would be glad in his heart. When he saw him he kissed him.

J.T. Aaron did the kissing. At that point Aaron led in brotherly love.

R.W.S. Is that a clue to why so many with whom we come into contact, and who come to our meetings, finally disappear? We do not seem to be able to secure them.

J.T. Yes; although soil is very hard. It is very striking how many do pass through, not taking hold of the truth the Holy Spirit is maintaining in the meetings. The well is essential to this. The well is the underlying principle that maintains this, and that is why Jacob, as a type, makes so much of it.

R.W.S. Would you, in such cases, emphasise that we are all brethren? You mentioned a month's time for the family side of things.

J.T. Yes; if you meet one who has the evidences of being a christian, you say, "Be as I am, for I also am as ye", Galatians 4:12. But it takes time to gain confidence,

and that is what the month means here. He abode a month's time; that is the family month, and then the next thing is wages. Laban says to Jacob, "Because thou art my brother, shouldest thou serve me for nothing? tell me, what shall be thy wages? And Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger, Rachel. And the eyes of Leah were tender; but Rachel was of beautiful form and beautiful countenance. And Jacob loved Rachel, and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter" (verses 15 - 18). Now this is the consummation of what his journey had in mind. Is there one that can be an object of his affections? It is the Jewish side that is in mind here, because from the standpoint of the Old Testament, Israel would be the most beautiful. The gentiles had no status, in that sense. There was nothing beautiful about them. But Christ received the gentile bride first. That is the position today. Rachel is the future Israelitish bride of Christ.

W.G.T. Referring again to what you were saying about the month's time, would Paul's eighteen months at Corinth fit in here? He stayed with them on brotherly lines, working as a tent maker and formed true bridal affections among them.

J.T. Yes. He was an apostle, but still he was a brother, and he stresses that. He associates a brother with him in each of his epistles to that assembly.

W.R. The Holy Spirit is necessary to love.

J.T. The Holy Spirit is necessary to everything from our side; and therefore we must make much of the Spirit, and if we are to do that we must judge ourselves for all that grieves or quenches the Holy Spirit. We must remove the stone that may, from our side, hinder the water flowing out.

W.B-w. Is the defect stressed here that there was no Jacob to take away the stone?

J.T. Yes. They did not have the true shepherd thought. Each would look after his own flock, no doubt;

but they all had to wait, however thirsty, until the flocks were all there. It would be a bad case for us, if we had to wait for all the saints in this city to come; we would never get anything. If the Lord said, You cannot meet here until you gather all the saints in this city, we would have a bad time. But Jacob met the need of Laban's flock immediately. "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20. The Lord met need immediately. It is a question of all Israel that are present. The clerical element hinders the family development as well as the assembly's marital relation with Christ. In some cases true men rise above it, but I am speaking of it generally. So this matter of wages comes up, and brings out what was in Jacob's heart, that he is ready to serve for a wife. It is how Christ served for the assembly; it is the affection He has for the assembly. Jacob had to wait seven years, but they were in his eyes as single days because he loved Rachel. It is the love of Christ for the assembly; not for the family or Laban's house, but for Rachel, and Rachel only. That is what he has in mind.

J.T.Jr. Paul had the family thought in his mind in regard of the Thessalonians -- they were brethren beloved of God. That assembly was marked by affection.

J.T. Yes. They are addressed as "the assembly of Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". They were taught of God to love one another. But the word is "more and more".

A.B.P. Do you have an answer to this section in the last chapter of Acts? Paul saw the brethren and took courage (verse 15); he served the Jews ardently, reflecting Christ's love for them, but he turned to the gentiles. It was as though his love for Israel found its final expression at Rome. Then he had to say, "Be it known to you therefore, that this salvation of God has been sent to the nations", Acts 28:28.

J.T. I am sure that is right. He tells the Thessalonians that he had been driven out, which is what happened to Jacob; he was driven out. That was behind Jacob's journeyings. It was Rebecca's thought first. Later, he was sent to Laban for a wife. Paul had been occupied in Christ's affection for Israel. In his last visit to Jerusalem he carried Christ's affection for Israel; he went to Jerusalem against the testimony of the Spirit, but nevertheless, what actuated him was great affection for Israel. When he comes to Rome the matter is settled, because he says that the salvation of God is sent to the nations.

A.R. Acts 20 and 21 would be Paul's affections in activity in relation to his brethren generally, I suppose. He embraces certain ones at Ephesus; then he embraces Eutychus at Troas; he is ardently kissed at Miletus, and then, at Tyre, the saints, including the women and children, embrace him.

J.T. The mutual affection that was there is touching. I am sure that is the lesson for us. It is what belongs to brethren, and how, as loving one another in this sense, we become delightful to the Lord unitedly, and pleasing to the Father, too.

F.N.W. This would help us in the fulfilment of our services locally. As occupied more in the sphere of the Spirit, and in conditions of affection among the brethren, the Lord would bring in souls.

J.T. I think that is the order of the truth; love amongst brethren; and when the Lord's Day morning arrives -- "we being assembled to break bread" -- we meet one another. It is a real pleasure to meet the brethren to begin with.

A.N.W. It is remarkable that it says in the prophet, "And for a wife he kept sheep", Hosea 12:12. He had a wife in mind in the keeping of the sheep.

J.T. There was the fleeing, the long journey, and then the heavy work; it was heavy work to keep sheep as he did. He endured much; the heat in the day, and

in the night the frost consumed him. It is remarkable, the intensity of his love. Seven years were in his eyes as seven days. It is to bring out the intensity of his love. Seven is a very important numeral throughout Scripture. It is usually what is complete spiritually.

W.B-w. What is the point in the prophet Hosea bringing the verse we have read into chapter 12, where Ephraim's failure is stated?

J.T. I think Hosea directs our minds back to good things in the midst of evil things; the former to be a positive incentive to saints, at any time, to overcome. What Jacob was at the beginning is mentioned. The prophet turns from severest denunciations to the most precious affectionate touches.

W.B-w. A terrible thing is said about Ephraim in that chapter. "All day long he multiplieth lies and desolation" (verse 1). In the midst of all this Jacob is brought in, as serving for a wife.

J.T. That would remind us of true affection, of which Ephraim was then wanting. We are told later on by the prophet, "And by a prophet Jehovah brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved" (verse 13). Verse 12 is the love of Christ for the assembly, and verse 13 is the prophetic ministry. The service of the prophet implies the power of God.

A.R. During this seven years of waiting for the bond to be consummated. Jacob is said to be keeping sheep. I was wondering, in view of that, whether the activity in waiting would keep the brethren together.

J.T. Jacob was occupied with live-stock; that is the idea. There are living conditions among the brethren, and you love them and care for them.

W.B-w. Is there a thought of Moses being linked on with Jacob in the passage in Hosea? Moses was the prophet.

J.T. Yes, clearly. The application today would be the love of Christ constraining us, and the prophetic

ministry touching our consciences would tend to take us out of Egypt, or if we are out, keep us out.

W.B-w. And the remnant would go on in the midst of all this wickedness of Ephraim.

J.T. That is a characteristic of Hosea's ministry. He brings in positive things to deliver you from the evil you are going on with. The prophetic ministry is doing a very good service, but the love of Christ is the first thing; it constrains us. "For the love of the Christ constrains us, having judged this: that one died for all, then all have died", 2 Corinthians 5:14. That is insisted on; the prophetic ministry will insist on that.

A.B.P. Would the personal experience of Hosea develop the feelings to which you referred as marking his ministry? Would it serve to emphasise in his heart the features of true love, which he would appreciate in Jacob and Rachel?

J.T. Yes; he had to go through extraordinary marital experiences himself, so as to be able to bring out Jehovah's love, patience and faithfulness to Israel. He says a great deal of what Israel was to God as a wife. She was shamefully untrue to Him, and hence His judgments came upon her (chapter 2). But He will allure her into the wilderness and speak to her heart. He tells her, "Thou shalt call me, My husband, and shalt call me no more, Baali" (chapter 2: 16). Hosea is an important book in regard of our subject.

W.B-w. It says of Jacob, "He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and in his strength he wrestled with God", Hosea 12:3. He had a good beginning. He began with power at the outset and he carries that through.

J.T. That shows he was of another order to Esau. That is, he was lovable to God from the very outset.

A.R. Is this idea seen in Corinth, where Paul says, "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all say the same thing, and that there be not among you divisions; but that ye be perfectly

united in the same mind and in the Same opinion", 1 Corinthians 1:10? Would that be the idea of the brethren, whereas the marital side is seen in the end of the second epistle, where he says, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2?

J.T. That is the order of the truth of the position. That is, the first epistle is our public position where we are known as brethren; the second brings in that, too, but it brings in the idea of the bride espoused to Christ; to "one man".

W.B-w. Evidently the Jewish spirit was in Isaac's house before Jacob fled.

J.T. That is the position. He is fleeing; he is driven out, but his heart is on an object which he seeks and finds; and that is what Paul represents.

R.W.S. Would the circuit (Romans 15:19) link on with the seven-year thought? The patient manner of prophetic service in which Paul finished his journey secures the finished product. There are no loose ends in Paul's service; he secures the bride for Christ.

J.T. Yes. The Lord looked around in a circuit on the brethren (Mark 3:34).

C.A.M. Peter had a commission as a shepherd and this would necessitate travelling.

J.T. It is remarkable, the journeying that there has been, but it is largely blocked for the moment. The Lord, I believe, will open up the way again for journeying; it was a feature of Christ's service, and is seen in relation to the assembly. Paul's journeyings were Christ's journeyings, and the same is true of the travels of others. Of the overcomer in Philadelphia, the Lord says, "He shall go no more at all out", Revelation 3:12.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (6)

Genesis 41:45 - 52; Genesis 49:22

J.T. It is thought that we should look at Joseph's history at this time. He, Joseph, is seen in Genesis as a type of Christ, not mainly in relation with Israel -- although of Israel -- but among the gentiles, and what He acquires there. The epistle to the Colossians has in mind this part of our subject; that is, "Christ in you" -- Christ among the nations -- "the hope of glory". There is no other hope among the nations. However much has been among them since Nebuchadnezzar's time, there is no "hope of glory". What gives a clue to our subject, principally, is the verse in chapter 49, "Joseph is a fruitful bough; a fruitful bough by a well; his branches shoot over the wall". The word for bough, as the note shows, is son of a fruitful tree. That is the general thought -- a fruitful bough; and then, "by a well" is a second thought. Branches convey a feminine thought -- daughters -- shooting over the wall. Fruitfulness is thus linked with the well.

In chapter 41, we see how immense was the fruitfulness. In general, it is seen in the fruit of the land, prior to the famine; but also in his two sons, the name of the second meaning fruitfulness. He says, "God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction" (verse 52); therefore, the idea of fruit predominates in his history. Asnath is the link with our subject, as a type of the assembly. Our thoughts, under the Spirit's guidance, should come under the teaching of Colossians -- the assembly's place seen there, and what Christ is as the Centre. His Person comes into great prominence even as to headship of the assembly, it is part of the glory of the Person of Christ that He is Head of the assembly. It is all of Himself, no augmentation from judaism at all; that is rather in the way. There is no idea of Sarah's tent here; it is what arises from Joseph;

that is, Christ, in type, and what is from himself, rising, as he does, from the position of a slave to lord of all Egypt. It is what Christ is Himself; what comes out in Himself; His position among the gentiles by itself; nothing at all contributed from judaism. It is what arises from him in the land of his affliction.

A.R. Chapter 37 reads, "These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph ..." (verse 2). It would seem as if the Spirit of God wants to have the eye fixed on Joseph immediately, and then it says, "And Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons" (verse 3).

J.T. Quite so; the subject runs right on from chapter 37 to chapter 46; it is mainly Joseph right through. We do not get the other sons until Jacob goes to Egypt. It is the Egyptian position, and Joseph in it. The others are left out until they go to Joseph in Egypt.

C.A.M. Your reference to Colossians seems to throw light on the line of thought. It says that when the gospel came among them it was bearing fruit and growing.

J.T. The name Zaphnath-paaneah is to bring out what he was to be. The idea conveyed, of the sustainer of life, would allude to the fruitfulness of the land which was administered through him; the bread that supplies life. Pharaoh therefore had the thought that was to come out in him; the one who could nourish or sustain the life of the world, as it seems to be. Joseph also says to his brethren, "God sent me before you to preserve life", Genesis 45:5. From Pharaoh's point of view, he was sustainer of the life of the world, and that was through food. "Pharaoh said to his bondmen, Shall we find one as this, a man in whom the Spirit of God is? And Pharaoh said to Joseph, Since God has made all this known to thee, there is none so discreet and wise as thou", Genesis 41:38, 39. So we may connect him with Caiaphas, who, because of the position he held, came into prophetic light. Then he says, "Thou shalt be over my house, and according to thy commandment

shall all my people regulate themselves; only concerning the throne will I be greater than thou". That is all in accord with Jacob's prophecies; the throne was the one thing that was denied Joseph. It was in the mind of God for Judah, who represents another phase of Christ's glory. "And Pharaoh said to Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand, and put it on Joseph's hand, and arrayed him in clothes of byssus, and put a gold chain on his neck. And he caused him to ride in the second chariot that he had; and they cried before him, Bow the knee! and he set him over all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh said to Joseph, I am Pharaoh; and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-paaneah, and gave him as wife Asnath, the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On" (verses 41 - 45). Thus he is honoured, and given a wife by the king. He is second to him; equal to the king except in the throne; therefore, the position is typical of what we see in God and Christ. We cannot reverse the position of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We must put the Father first, not the Spirit, nor the Son. The economy of christianity is seen thus; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. That is the position now. The basis for fruitfulness is thus assured.

A.B.P. Is the picture completed in chapter 47, in Jacob coming in as father? Pharaoh is seen as typical of God, but is not Jacob typical of the Father? So that the fruitfulness in Joseph's sons becomes satisfaction to the heart of the Father.

J.T. That is right. The Father comes in first, really, in the full thought of our dispensation. "I ascend to my Father, and your Father". That is the order of the truth in John 20; and then, "my God, and your God" is final.

A.N.W. Are these statements in chapter 49 to be considered separately and distinctly? First of all, Joseph

is a fruitful bough, and then a fruitful bough by a well, as linking him, apparently, with the Spirit; and then, the branches shoot over the wall, as the product of that, which might suggest a link between the Son and the Spirit.

J.T. That is the gist of the matter. It is a very short verse, but it is very full. The fruitful bough is one thing; that is his own distinction. And then, a fruitful bough by a well, is his relative position. Then the feminine idea is in the branches (the footnote says 'daughters') shooting over the wall. It is a sort of evidence of life, going over the wall.

F.H.L. Is there any link with Luke 3 here? The Spirit comes down, and the Father's delight is expressed; and then it says, Jesus began to be about thirty years of age.

J.T. I have no doubt Luke would help us. It is understood that he was a gentile. At any rate, his treatises develop the truth in relation to the gentiles. He pursues the history until he reaches Rome; Paul in his own hired house in Rome says, "this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it", Acts 28:28. It is the gentile position that is the great objective in Luke's ministry; and it is for us to be simple and appreciative and appropriative of what relates to us and rise to it. It is what God has now among the nations.

W.R. Does not God hold the gentile world responsible as to what it has done with Christ? Pharaoh says here to all the Egyptians, "Go to Joseph: what he says to you, that do" (verse 55).

J.T. Yes; He is honoured among the gentiles, and this works out now in testimony; it is for us to understand. Of course, the four monarchies were ordained of God to govern the gentile world; that is, the whole world provisionally. The throne belongs to Christ, but that is secret, or mysterious. How He is honoured, according to this type, is for us now to understand,

and what part we have in the distinction He has -- and the fruitfulness. Everything hinges on fruitfulness; so that we have the idea of the fulness of the gentiles coming in, in Romans. That means what Christ has effected among the gentiles. Romans does not develop the assembly, but it does mention the fulness of the gentiles. Christ, in the mysterious position He holds at the right hand of God, is operating here in view of fruitfulness.

A.A.T. In Colossians, Paul speaks about "Christ in you the hope of glory", Colossians 1:27, as a mystery.

J.T. That is how the matter stands. It is a question of the mystery involving the assembly. The gospels speak of the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but the passage in Colossians speaks of Christ and the assembly. Romans, as we have said, contemplates the fulness of the gentiles; we are finishing up in this dispensation among the gentiles. Colossians has the assembly in mind, and Asnath here corresponds as a type of the assembly. There is nothing special that is stated as to her personally, any more than in the case of Zipporah -- unlike Rebecca or other types of the assembly. It is just that she is there, so that the marital position is present; and the well is essential; that is, the Spirit is necessary. Joseph is "a fruitful bough", meaning, as the footnote indicates, son of a fruitful tree; but then he is that by a well, and his branches shoot over the wall. It is a living state of things because of the well.

C.A.M. Would it not connect with one of our earlier readings when we were occupied with John 4?

J.T. Yes. Jacob and Joseph and the well are connected there. I suppose the woman of Samaria might be suggested in the daughters shooting over the wall.

A.N.W. The men in John say, "We know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world". They use the very title which is conveyed in the name Pharaoh gives to Joseph.

J.T. Yes. So that John 4 works out into the nobleman and sonship. The Samaritans made a place for the Lord and He abode there two days; and then we get the sign of the nobleman's son, bringing out the development of the truth in the chapter. "Thy son lives", the Lord says to the man. The nobleman had said, Come down ere my child die. He was not thinking of any dignity; he was just thinking of the child being restored, but the Lord says, "Thy son lives". That is also the thought in the fruitful bough. It is the dignity coming out in the development of the truth. Then John 5 brings out the greatness of Christ in sonship, but in the sense of the dependent One. Much is made of the Son, and His equality with the Father, and yet He says He can do nothing without the Father.

J.S. Do John 3 and 4 fit in here? In John 3, in "The Father loveth the Son"; then in chapter 4 you have Him by the well.

J.T. That is right; you see how the truth works out from chapter 4 and how it develops through the nobleman's family, because the Lord refers to the son at once; not that he shall live, but he lives. It is immediate; and then the nobleman goes down to Capernaum where he lived, and the servants having told him about the child, and the time of his recovery, he remarked that that was the hour in which the Lord said his son lived. Then it is said that he believed -- by himself, as it were. There is the idea again; but the house believed, too. The conjunction 'and' is used -- not 'with'. The belief of the family is by itself as we might say. It is to show the working out of the truth of Christ among the gentiles.

R.W.S. The Lord's supper really belongs to the gentiles.

J.T. It is set down amongst them, according to Corinthians, you might say. The ark was set by itself without any accompaniments; the pot of manna and the book of the law were in it in the wilderness, but

as placed in the house, by Solomon, there was nothing in it but the tables of the covenant. In this sense it was like the Lord's supper as set down in Corinth. The eliminations bring it into a setting more precious and more fitting to the assembly.

A.R. Joseph calls his second son Ephraim, which means double fruitfulness.

J.T. It brings out, I suppose, what Christ is among the gentiles. There are two sons; the name of the first suggests elimination. Just as we have been saying about the Lord's supper -- Manasseh means forgetfulness -- it is a negative thought. God, Joseph says, has made me to forget. This idea of elimination ought to have its place with us too. "For God has made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house" (verse 51); that is the thought to start with. If we are to reach a refined position in relation to the Lord's supper, there must be some elimination of ideas, so as to bring out its entire connection with the assembly. The positive side is double fruitfulness. You may be sure that if we do not understand elimination, we shall never get full results. Christendom has brought in so much that is not only extraneous, but corrupting, that we must understand the principle of elimination, so as to have holy conditions.

G.V.D. Is that brought out in John 15 -- in the purging of the branches?

J.T. That is the principle of it, to purge away what is dead; so that there might be more fruit. I do not know whether the brethren follow this thought of elimination, so as to be suitably in the assembly. We shall never reach the assembly without that negative principle.

A.N.W. Do you mean the closed door idea in John 20?

J.T. Yes. That is shutting out the Jews -- the Jewish element; but there is more than that to be shut out.

C.A.M. The Lord allowed the truth of the Supper to be given in a setting which would show what had to be eliminated. It is remarkable that it should be given in an epistle to such an assembly as Corinth.

J.T. That is right, as to the things that are wrong. What we are dealing with now relates to things that, in themselves, are right; that is, what attached to Joseph's father's house, as he says, "God has made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house". That is the negative idea in Manasseh; and then the next is, "For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction". God had done both things; showing that what we are engaged with now, as among the gentiles, is the result of God acting for us negatively and positively, empowering us to eliminate what might hold us in a certain way. Years back many things were connected with the Lord's supper -- the forgiveness of sins, for example. The forgiveness of sins is connected with it in the gospels; so that we have to understand the difference between the original institution and what was given from above by the Lord to Paul, with which we are to conform in our assembly service. We often say a horse is a useful creature, or an ass; so they are, but not admissible as sacrifices. We have to learn how to eliminate things that in themselves are right, but unsuitable in certain circumstances. So Joseph, in view of fruitfulness, brings in the thought of elimination in Manasseh; that is, in relation to his father's house. God had caused him to forget. It was an actual state brought about in him by God. How can I, therefore, be in the assembly without the Spirit? It is the power of God that enables me to disallow what hinders.

R.W.S. The part of the meeting where we used to dwell on the covenant has been somewhat modified by the marital thought.

J.T. Yes. We have been helped to give more place to the latter. It is growing on us. Romans speaks of

our bearing fruit unto God. Joseph has that in mind; and for this the Spirit must be there. The more I think of the service of God in the assembly, the more I see we must come in the recognition of the Spirit, not only to eliminate things mentally, but to do it in power. It becomes my actual state for the moment.

A.P.T. In John 20, Mary is told, "Touch me not". What would there be in that?

J.T. That is elimination, referring to what the garden stood for. The garden will be all right by and by, but it was not the place for the Lord to be touched then. He was bringing in the heavenly side of the truth. He said, "I ascend to my Father and your Father". The connection is to be up there. Christ's brethren, or the assembly, answer to it here.

A.R.S. Did Joseph learn the same as Abram? He was called out from his father's house; then he was hindered a bit, because he waited until his father died.

J.T. That is the principle; whether we can leave things that are in themselves right; that is not merely a mental effort, but a matter of state for the moment. It is an actual state of fruitfulness, and God has done it. It is the Holy Spirit doing it, as we make room for Him. We want to learn how to be in a suitable state at a given time. The power of elimination is by the Spirit.

A.R.S. Does the principle of elimination come in in the word, "that they who have wives, be as not having any", 1 Corinthians 7:29?

J.T. That is a general principle -- in regard of service, but in the assembly, normally, our wives should be regarded as our sisters. And then in the assembly, on the wholly spiritual side there is neither male or female, bond or free. It is a question not only of a mental effort, but the Spirit of God has made me to do it.

J.H.E. Paul says, "forgetting the things behind, and stretching out to the things before, I pursue", Philippians 3:13.

J.T. That is forgetting permanently, and most important, but we are stressing what is to be forgotten when actually in assembly.

A.N.W. "Forget thine own people and thy father's house: and the king will desire thy beauty", Psalm 45:10, 11.

J.T. That confirms what we are saying. It is said of Stephen that he was full of faith and the Holy Spirit. That is necessary for a state suitable for assembly service.

J.T.Jr. Would that state develop by feeding on the old corn of the land?

J.T. Exactly. Joshua 5 brings us into accord with the new place. I am sustained there by the old corn of the land; that is, food that is indigenous to the land; and I am built up constitutionally according to that, making me practically heavenly. Of course, the early disciples realised this. They came into the thing. John says, "I was in the Spirit". Paul says that he was caught up into paradise.

A.N.W. Is elimination brought about by reckoning?

J.T. We begin with that. Reckoning is an act of the mind, as in Romans 6"So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus". In chapter 8 it becomes a real state in the soul, because it is by the Spirit: "but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (verse 13). Romans 8 is a great point reached. It is God, by the Spirit, doing things.

A.R. Do you eliminate sins from your mind at the Supper, having in mind rather that the loaf suggests Christ's love for the assembly?

J.T. That is the way we move on until we are in accord with Christ; the marital bond involves that we are in accord with Him; that we are outside of flesh and blood conditions; that we are in a deathless state of things, because the assembly never dies, never will die; it is a living organism. We are to reach that. The

thing we are speaking about is, with us, largely light, in application, but there is such a thing as that, and the early christians arrived at it. The idea is in the assembly, that it is to be reached outside of flesh and blood conditions. It is the Eve condition -- the primary thought -- it is a sinless, deathless state; it never will die; sin will never be attached to it. Abstractly, there is no sin attaching to it.

J.T.Jr. In Exodus 24 God did not put His hand on those who went up: there was nothing to call attention to, that was obnoxious to Him; they went up and saw the God of Israel.

J.T. Quite so; they are called the nobles of Israel. It is in that elevated sphere.

J.H.E. Would it be Ephesian altitude? They went through the upper districts (Acts 19:1), and as in that setting, the Spirit is given through the laying on of Paul's hands.

J.T. That is the idea. We often speak of the two levels -- the Corinthian level is in chapter 18, and Apollos is there holding that lower level, which is our public position; but Paul reached Ephesus on the upper level, which is the heavenly side.

A.R. In our giving of thanks there is a tendency to go over past history.

J.T. Entering on full assembly state and position is a question of spiritual power; it is a question of what God does for you by the Spirit. He makes you to forget and brings you into what you are in the Spirit: "For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction". The conditions outside have not changed; the change is in Joseph -- in the saints.

C.A.M. Would you say that while Joseph's wife is a type of the assembly here, yet on account of the setting, her importance really is in her fruit -- in her sons?

J.T. That is the point that is made, because it fits into the Joseph type. It is fruitfulness; what God has effected among the gentiles. As we look across the

field from Jerusalem "round about to Illyricum", and now round about to Victoria, B.C. -- the uttermost limit of the west -- what gracious divine activities and results are suggested!

C.A.M. The allusion to the west is very encouraging. It should give us rest in spite of all that is happening.

J.T. Quite so; God is having to say to the matter. God is stretching out His hand in all this war, and it is a question as to whether we can follow Him in faith. "Touch not mine anointed ones, and do my prophets no harm", Psalm 105:15. God is working out the fulness of the gentiles; He will not allow any power to interfere. It may bring out what is in the saints, but it will not obliterate what is there.

F.N.W. Do the existing conditions require this power of elimination, that God may not be deprived of what is due to Him from His people?

J.T. Yes. Can we come into the current of God's thoughts as to this great thought of the assembly as in Colossians 1:27, "Christ in you the hope of glory"? That is the mystery; what He is bringing out in the gentiles; the whole field is in His mind. He is bringing out the fulness of it; whether it be Europe or this continent. We must enquire what God is getting out of it. God is overshadowing all this territory. He has property in it, and He is going to take it out of it presently, but He is going to keep it here as long as He needs to keep it here. He has caused fruitfulness in the land of Christ's affliction. I think that is the thing to have before us in considering Christ as typified in Joseph; what He has in the whole gentile world. What He has in Australia, for instance -- Australasia is really the south. I have been thinking about some whom God has taken up -- persons of no account at all -- in the cities of Europe and down in the Caribbean Sea. These lands are included in the fulness of the nations. God is there; He has something

there, and He will see it through. It is a question of the fulness of the gentiles coming in.

J.S. Do you see that brought out in Acts 13?

J.T. Yes; I think the idea began at Antioch; that is where the disciples were first called christians; that is, entirely distinguished by themselves, no longer Jews.

F.S.C. Is Joseph's land in Deuteronomy 33 the same thought? It speaks there of the blessings of Joseph's land.

J.T. Well, his land there would be his part in the inheritance among the tribes. The birthright was his. We are seeking to get at the foundational idea in Christ among the gentiles. It is a bough, a fruitful bough. He is a "son of a fruitful tree"; and then he is a fruitful bough by a well; and then his daughters are springing up as seen in the "branches"; the latter is the feminine idea developed. That all comes out in the assembly; the ministry of the assembly among the gentiles. This mystery is among the nations, and God is going to see it through; so that we want to be in the current of His thoughts.

R.W.S. What do you think God has in mind in limiting our travelling now?

J.T. It is discipline. We all feel it. God is looking on, and He is sure to give relief. In view of complete fulness coming out. He is sure to give us relief in time. I do not see anything in it beyond discipline.

H.G.H. In spite of the conditions the brethren are being brought very close together.

J.T. Yes; going over the wall would be the result of the well. The allusion is to a full well and the wall is around; that is, the power of life through the water causes the growth, causing the fruitfulness to go over the wall. Whatever the hindrance might be, or however high the wall might be, the growth of life goes over it. So that God will not shut us up to ourselves, I am certain, because the idea of oneness of the assembly requires that we should visit one another. I am

certain He will not leave us shut up if He is to go on with His testimony. He will make a way for love. It is remarkable, in vegetable life, how you see the force of growth developed through an obstacle. If our affections move toward our brethren (we can keep on writing to them and sending them what we can). God will say, I will let you go there, too. God is fostering the development of life and will facilitate it.

A.N.W. The word is, shoot over the wall.

J.T. That shows the energy of life.

C.A.M. Your reference to the south was very interesting. In the beginning of the Acts a man comes from the south, and there was a queen of the south. There seems to be a correspondence at the end with what there was at the beginning of church history in fruit from the south. The Ethiopian eunuch came from the south. He had in mind the worship of God.

J.T. Quite so. The south would be Africa, primarily. Well, Africa has come around to this continent and the Aryan branch of the race has come around by the north. We are all here. God has brought us here. He is working out His great thoughts here. That indicates where America stands in the ways of God.

F.H.L. Israel's position is established in chapter 48.

J.T. Quite so. These two boys come under the hand of the father later, but Joseph is viewing them here as his own product; not helped by any other hand. It is what Joseph is -- a fruitful bough. Ephraim is double fruitfulness. He comes in as the first-born in another way, linking on really with the double river in Ezekiel, because in Ezekiel, in that connection, Joseph is to have two portions in the future. But that is Joseph in the millennium, among the other tribes, but now we are dealing with him among the gentiles.

J.S. The springs are just as strong in the south as they are in the north.

J.T. That is right. I think it is remarkable that in the entrance of the gospel into Europe properly, it

was brought to a colony. Philippi was a colony. Colonization has been a great feature of modern times and God has followed it up to work out His thoughts. Men went to New Zealand and Australia largely to get gold, but God has taken up many there. Thus, "the gold of that land" is not what has been found in the mines; God has taken up men, and it is what God is getting out of His people now.

C.A.M. The treasure, over which the eunuch was placed, must have had a changed value in his eyes when he got back to Ethiopia. He had found greater treasure.

J.T. Quite so; he took it back in his heart. He went away rejoicing. We are not told what he did when he came to the end of his journey. God would say, You ought to know. He was a real christian. Well, I trust that the brethren will get the idea of the position we are in, and what God is doing this very minute; working out the fulness of the gentiles; each one yields to God as he is taken out from among the gentiles.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (7)

Exodus 2:15 - 22; Exodus 15:27; Exodus 17:1 - 7

J.T. It is thought that we should go on to Moses at this time in pursuing our subject. Moses typifies Christ in relation to the ministry; that is, the truth. There are other features, of course, such as mediatorship and lordship seen in Moses; but in general, it is the ministry, and the assembly seen in type in Zipporah. She is a type of "the assembly in the wilderness", and hence we have some rather ugly features brought out. She is typical of Christ's bride, as are the others that we have considered; that is, Eve, Rebecca, Leah, Rachel, and Asnath. God would allow the ugly features, that is, the features of the flesh, that break out in a scene of contrariety, to come into evidence. We have two persons representing the assembly in the wilderness; the first is Zipporah, in this chapter, and then the Cushite woman in Numbers 12. She may come in for consideration later, with several features that are found in Numbers and Deuteronomy. God willing, but our enquiry now will be confined to Exodus. The position is very clearly stated in the simple fact that Moses fled from before Pharaoh and went and dwelt in the land of Midian, and he sat by the well. This passage really governs the whole subject, for it is a question of how Christ served; and then of those who minister, recognising the Spirit in Its calm, balancing effect; that is, as leading to contentment and quietness until God makes a way for the service.

J.H.E. Prior to this Moses acted in the flesh in seeking to kill the Egyptian; now he is taking refuge in the Spirit?

J.T. He had learned something from his violence and in acting before the time, not in the power of the Spirit, but in his own power, so that he fled from Pharaoh; the effect of his violence had driven him out

of Egypt; but still, it is under God, and Pharaoh is viewed as the enemy. In this section Pharaoh is said to have died. This made way for Moses to return. God makes way for us, according to this passage; so we have to be quietened and balanced, to wait for God and not force ourselves in any service we attempt. Moses had forced himself, but now he has learned not to do so.

Rem. A right motive alone is not enough in the service of God.

J.T. God has pleasure in those who are subject to Christ; who await their opportunities, and in the meanwhile are content in adverse circumstances. Moses certainly was in very different circumstances from those in which he had been. It says, "And Moses consented to remain with the man" as if the way was opened up for him to lodge there; and then he obtained a wife without his seeking. It is all ordered on every side. He is not seeking anything; it is what comes to him, and he accepts these circumstances. It was not his ordinary circumstances. He is content with the wife that is given to him. It is the idea of subjection, which the Spirit of God enables us to maintain in quietness. A great deal of soul history preceded his lowly attitude in Midian.

A.R. He was sitting by the well. Do you look at the Holy Spirit in this light as an Object of contemplation?

J.T. He is viewed objectively, although He has to be regarded subjectively, eventually, according to Romans 8, but then, He is to be viewed objectively, that is, as expressed in others. Moses is saying here, in effect, This is for me; this is to be my power henceforth; and that governs the whole chapter.

H.G.H. Moses puts himself in a position where he could receive this refreshment. Would the Holy Spirit come in, in that way, as we are found in conditions where He is available?

J.T. Yes; in this sense a sitting posture is good. It is not simply a well, but the well. There is only one Spirit: "There is one body and one Spirit", Ephesians 4:4.

A.B.P. Do you have in mind that the well suggests the Spirit personally, or the measure in which He can be appropriated by us, or is effectual in us?

J.T. He is there. Moses is sitting by the well, vowing, in effect, that he is to be governed by this power. A well, ordinarily, is a spring of water. Moses would appropriate it, of course, and the facts of the chapter show that he had done so, typically, and therefore he is quiet; he is balanced, and receives what comes to him under God's hand -- not seeking out things for himself, but accepting what comes to him. He remains in Midian a long time -- forty years -- in that contented state, consenting, we are told, to stay with the man; with the man. I think this is intended to convey the idea of worth in Jethro. The sequel confirms this.

A.B.P. Does contentment come into the soul as we contemplate the fact that this divine Person, the Holy Spirit, has been pleased to take a place in service, to be available to men in this way?

J.T. Yes; that marked the Lord's path and, relatively, marks every true servants path -- to be content. Paul says, "as to me I have learnt in those circumstances in which I am, to be satisfied in myself", Philippians 4:11.

A.A.T. His previous training in Egypt did not help him to be content.

J.T. It certainly would be a test to him to eliminate it, because he could not bring it into these circumstances. He would be a rough-cornered man if he were to bring his Egyptian experiences into these circumstances of Midian. He would not be a shepherding man at all. He would be complaining; but he is not complaining; typically, he has come to the truth of the Holy Spirit.

A.N.W. Does the comment in Hebrews 11 cover this matter? It says, "for he persevered, as seeing him who is invisible" (verse 27).

J.T. Yes; God is discerned in his path, and that enters into the facts as to the well. It is in the Spirit that God is with us.

A.R. Would the ten days from the Lord's ascension until the Holy Spirit came down, be like this in some sense? They had to wait until they were clothed with power from on high.

J.T. As in that attitude they were not idling; they were in the upper room, suitably occupied; they gave themselves with one accord to continual prayer, showing that they were equal to the incoming of the Spirit. Moses sitting down here signifies intelligent restfulness in the position reached, by the well. The next thing is action; the need for action is forced on him. He is not seeking a quarrel; he is not seeking work; need existed, and he would help. The passage says, "And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs, to water their father's flock. And the shepherds came and drove them away" (verses 16, 17). It was a worse state of things than in Syria, where there was no violence; but still the water was denied to the flocks by a stone at the well's mouth there. Here, they had the water, but the shepherds came and drove them away; this is thus a serious situation. What will he do now? Will he kill one or more of these shepherds as he killed the Egyptian? It does not say he did anything to them, but he rose and helped the daughters of Jethro, and watered their flock. He is occupied, definitely, in helping others, evidently avoiding to attack the violent people. He is on positive lines; you can do things successfully, and yet avoid a quarrel.

J.T.Jr. The enemy would get us off the positive line and occupy us with strife.

J.T. No doubt Satan would seek to draw Moses into strife here, but clearly he had learned his lesson from his previous experience, when he slew a man. Now the enemy is testing Moses out. What will he do with these shepherds? He is going on positively with the Spirit of God. So the Scriptures urge meekness, as seen in the Lord Jesus: "I am meek and lowly in heart", Matthew 11:29.

W.R. Is this meekness of Moses the fruit of the Spirit?

J.T. Yes; there are nine mentioned in Galatians 5. He is marked by peace; he is a son of peace now; he is not a son of quarrel.

C.A.M. It is remarkable that the feminine thought comes in, in connection with the flock at once.

J.T. That is the point; we are speaking of Christ and the assembly in relation to wells, springs or running water, and this is an excellent feature of our subject.

A.N.W. If a young brother were to appeal his case before the military, for example, it would not be to force it, but to avail himself of the open door that God has provided through the government.

J.T. Quite so; and if the way is not recognised by those with whom we have to do at first, it is there, nevertheless, and you would do everything to call attention to it as of God. But then we must also remember the word, "Let your gentleness be known of all men", Philippians 4:5.

A.P.T. Does this quietness of spirit, and Moses getting a wife, link on with the great need of patience in assembly matters in the wilderness?

J.T. Yes; the worst side of all of us comes out in the wilderness, because it is a scene of contrariety. God says of Israel, "I will allure her, and bring her into the wilderness", Hosea 2:14, as if attraction is necessary; we have to be drawn into it. The circumstances are contrary, but God says, "she shall sing there"; that

means she is to be superior to wilderness conditions. You can sing in the midst of contrariety.

A.B.P. Does the fact that Moses was content with the wife that was given him, typify Christ in relation to the assembly? He has continued with her in spite of the awful public conditions.

J.T. That is the fact. "For a time of about forty years he nursed them in the desert", Acts 13:18; or as the Authorised Version reads, "suffered he their manners in the wilderness". He bears with us, and we must learn to bear with one another. We are to reflect the Spirit of Christ there. It was very contrary in the wilderness, especially the western edge of it, after they left Horeb. It was a terrible desert. It is spoken of in that way in Deuteronomy: "that great and terrible wilderness"; as if God brings us into that to test us; and unless we maintain rigid self-judgment, we may be certain that the ugly side will come out. Moses learns, in this chapter, how to be quiet. When the time comes for the wilderness, then we have a variety of ministry, as we shall see in chapter 15 -- twelve wells of water; not one well but twelve; that is, the idea is extended to the apostles or others, so the furnishing is abundant. Here, the ugliness of the flesh is seen at once in Zipporah; she contended with her husband as to the circumcision. The ministry in the epistles to the Corinthians represents what is before us. The Lord said to Paul in the city of Corinth, "Fear not, but speak and be not silent; because I am with thee, and no one shall set upon thee to injure thee", Acts 18:9, 10. The Lord knew the situation the apostle had to deal with. The "much people" He had in Corinth must be delivered out of what was in character Egypt. Corinth was a terribly corrupt city, but the Lord had much people there, and Paul was to find them out and deliver them; and so he says, "I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified", 1 Corinthians 2:2. He says, further, "... that the surpassingness

of the power may be of God, and not from us", 2 Corinthians 4:7; that is, he relied on the Spirit of God. He introduced the Spirit at once in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 2). This involved circumcision, which Zipporah did not like for her son. Corinth is the wilderness position, and the well governs it. It is a contrary situation, and we are to go through it together. We must therefore take note of the examples of the working of the flesh in the types. We have been speaking of Zipporah and there are many other examples. We cannot but recall what has happened in the last one hundred years. Almost immediately after the Spirit began to work, division took place. Let us not forget the ugliness of it. We must face that and see how we may now avoid a repetition of it, or of what happened later, and go through to the end of the wilderness, holding fast the truth.

W.R. Does the Lord exemplify that in Matthew 4? He "was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil" (verse 1).

J.T. Yes. Luke connects specially with our subject. He says, "Jesus ... was led by the Spirit in the wilderness forty days, tempted of the devil", Luke 4:1. He was led in the wilderness; not into, but in; He went through the thing, by the Spirit. That is the point. Mark says, "The Spirit drives him out into the wilderness", Mark 1:12.

C.A.M. The way the Corinthians treated the apostle was part of their bad manners. Is this suggestion seen in verse 20 of our chapter, in that Jethro's daughters did not really appreciate Moses?

J.T. Certainly some at Corinth did not care for Paul. They said that his bodily presence was weak and his speech contemptible. People who talk like that about those whom the Lord is using are dangerous.

F.N.W. The appropriation of Jesus Christ crucified would produce this state of contentment.

J.T. Thus you are not ministering to yourself; you are not overmuch concerned about your present circumstances. You must, of course, make a living for yourself and family, but to improve one's circumstances according to man is not the christian's thought; that is the point that enters into chapter 2. Moses was accepting circumstances very inferior to what he had been accustomed, and he was content in them. There is a danger in one who serves the Lord, capitalising what he has, including the service; but that will never add to spiritual power. A better house, or better car, or anything like that will not add to spiritual power at all. It is a question of what God puts on His servants. We may be sure that if God is going to use a man, He will put things on him governmentally that he will not like naturally. That is the point in this chapter; Moses was content to dwell with the man; he made no objection to the daughter he gave him as wife. It is just what God gave him; God is with a man on those lines.

J.S. Do you think the taking up of the work of the shepherd was evidence of his spirit of subjection?

J.T. Quite; that is the point, passing through the wilderness; what God puts upon you is from His own side. I should not seek anything in a natural sense. I am to take my place there by the well. "Here am I", Isaiah says. Things will come upon you governmentally, that do not add to you at all, in this world, but in accepting them you increase in spiritual power.

C.A.M. The fact of being connected with the Midianites in this way, would be a governmental matter to Moses.

J.T. It would. This is evident by Numbers 25:16, 17, and Numbers 31:1, 2.

A.R. What would you say about Zipporah calling Moses a bloody husband?

J.T. That brings out the ugly side of our position. The assembly is often marked in that way; how much

complaint there is against the Lord! It may be indirect; but nevertheless it is against the Lord.

A.R. Is that what you had in mind when you referred to those who spoke disparagingly about Paul at Corinth?

J.T. Yes; they were attacking the minister; so that Paul says, "I think that God has set us the apostles for the last, as appointed to death. For we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men", 1 Corinthians 4:9, and again, "we are become as the offscouring of the world, the refuse of all" (verse 13). They did not seek that; God put it on them and they accepted it.

J.T.Jr. We should not be vindictive; that is a feature of the flesh when one is attacked or criticised.

J.T. Just so; it comes up immediately when you are injured. So the point is, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall no way fulfil flesh's lust", Galatians 5:16. It is the positive side of things here in the well.

He was slow to take up the way of the Spirit; Ananias had to say to Paul, "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name", Acts 22:16. We are not to be slow in removing what would hinder our coming into the blessing of the Spirit.

A.B.P. Would the agility of Moses, in drawing water abundantly, show that whilst accepting the circumstances, he was whole-hearted in them? It reminds us of the activities of Rebecca.

J.T. It is also true for us; there is plenty in the Spirit, as it were, for anyone who wishes to appropriate it or apply it.

A.B.P. In small-meeting conditions there is no need for holding things back because there are but a few. Pouring out of the best would be proper, would it?

J.T. That is the thing; freely ye have received, freely give. Do not hold it back for a bigger meeting; you can use it at a bigger meeting, but you can use it better if you use it at once. Moses drew water for the daughters of Jethro. The attitude of the shepherds there would be a good reason to draw water sparingly, but he drew in

abundance. I am sure that is what is needed in small meetings.

C.N. The name he gave his son -- Gershom -- would indicate that he must have profited from his experience.

J.T. Yes; meaning, "I have been a sojourner in a foreign land". That is an experience we all need.

W.R. It seems, from Hebrews 11, that Moses' greatness stood over against nature. It says that when he had become great, he refused to be called son of Pharaoh's daughter.

J.T. Yes, if he were pursuing his natural course as a worldly man -- as an Egyptian -- he would wish to blot Midian out of his memory. It was a period of humiliation. No; he is to remember it always, as it were; thus, similarly, in Deuteronomy, the offerer of the first fruits says, "A perishing Aramaean was my father" (chapter 26: 5). Even in view of the land, they were enjoined to remember that; it is to balance us. It does not mean when we are in heaven literally; it is when we are in heavenly places, through faith by the Spirit, we do not forget these experiences. They really make men out of us -- these wilderness experiences. That is what Moses meant in naming his son Gershom. "I have been a sojourner in a foreign land". In his house, Gershom would represent that Moses had been in humble circumstances in Midian for forty years.

C.A.M. It is remarkable; it would affect his manner towards strangers, would it not?

J.T. Yes; such experiences make us sympathetic with others. A sensible man will say to one in distress, I have been through what you are going through, and I sympathise with you. It is said that the Lord Jesus was afflicted in all our afflictions.

A.B.P. Is that why He styled Himself a Samaritan in the parable of Luke 10?

J.T. Just so. He did not tell the woman of Samaria that He was a Samaritan; He told her He was a Jew;

but in the parable, He was a Samaritan; it implied that He had no status at all with the religious leaders. I think it is one of the greatest lessons for those of us who are in the ministry in any way, to be content with our circumstances, and not aim at improvement in worldly things, accepting everything from God. God gives us temporal things to hold in relation to Himself and His service; not to augment our personal position in the ministry.

J.S. Would you regard the shepherds here as hirelings, as mentioned in John 10?

J.T. They were unsympathetic and violent. These daughters of Jethro were wanting in gratitude and hospitality to Moses. Jethro said, Where is he? It is remarkable that there is so much indifference. It doubtless alludes, typically, to wilderness features in those who form the assembly. Why are we often so indifferent to Christ? We accept benefits. Why should we be so indifferent? What about the man? says Jethro. Contrary to what might be expected, the women did not evince interest or gratitude. It is a type of those who form the assembly. We accept benefits, but neglect Him from whom they come, not considering for Him. It is remarkable that one of these is given to him as a wife. You may say, he would never choose one so thoughtless, but God gives her to him; at least, that is what the type indicates. In these circumstances, God is not thinking of our natural requirements, but of what works out His own ways in view of His service. Discipline enters much into these matters in the wilderness. There is most important instruction as to marriage in 1 Corinthians; but we are speaking of Christ and of the assembly.

G.H. Do you mean I should not seek to improve myself in my circumstances but seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and these things will be added to me?

J.T. That is the principle.

A.R. If the things were not adverse, he certainly would never have called his son Gershom; and if the wilderness circumstances are not adverse, we are liable to remain there, instead of going through.

J.T. Moses did not settle down. Joseph settled down in Egypt, forgetting his father's house. Typically, that is Christ among the gentiles, as over against His Jewish relation. Here, Moses does not typify that; he is ever a sojourner in a foreign land. He just went through the experience as God put it upon him. He looks on his wife in that way, evidently, as causing him discipline. Why did not those women consider for this young man? They were indifferent. It is to record, undoubtedly, the indifference of many christians to Christ; they accept the benefits and ignore His needs. Did not Moses need shelter? Did not he need food? There are thousands of God's people who accept the benefits and just ignore the needs of the Lord in the testimony. Yet Moses has one of these women as his wife. You may say, He will have difficulties, and that is exactly what he had, and that is what Christ has in the assembly in all its wilderness experience. I am far from saying that wifely affection and other qualities were not there. They certainly exist in the antitype, as in Corinth; but we are remarking on the feature that is more stressed.

A.A.T. At Corinth they left the Lord out.

J.T. They left Paul out too. When they left Paul out, they left Christ out. That is what is meant.

J.T.Jr. Paul's experience at Philippi would be the contrast to this. Lydia says, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there", Acts 16:15. Is the wifely side seen in Lydia?

J.T. She is a beautiful type of the assembly basically -- all believing women in the Acts point in that direction.

A.R. Pharaoh was instructing the people to destroy all the male children as they were born. God, it seems, was making the circumstances of Moses adverse to fit

him for the great service of taking the people out of Egypt.

J.T. Yes. The whole history in Egypt and the wilderness is on this line. We are now looking at "the assembly in the wilderness", and we shall have to pursue it until we get to Deuteronomy to get the full instruction out of it. Every time you see these ugly things coming out, you will say, That is just what has often marked me. I believe every one of us here will have to admit that. And yet the foundation exists, as is said of Corinth; also the temple of God, and the body of Christ; and they were unleavened, and regarded as intelligent persons. So that while there was so much to cause pain in Corinth, the assembly was there.

A.A.T. Is that one reason why you read Exodus 15:27 -- to bring in the twelve wells, the ministry?

J.T. Yes, the authority of the ministry to meet this condition, and the palm trees to provide shelter; a divine provision for us in the wilderness. Spiritual meetings all effect that; you get relief in them from wilderness conditions. The second chapter, as I might say, is Moses himself; how he starts out, content with the circumstances that he finds, choosing the Spirit. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall no way fulfil flesh's lust", Galatians 5:16.

A.B.P. There is often quite an exercise in regard to fitting children for their place in business. Is it right to encourage a child in its natural propensities, or should there be rather the waiting upon God to open up a way which, in His wisdom, may even cut directly across the natural ability of the child? What would you suggest?

J.T. Proverbs says, "Train up the child according to the tenor of his way" (chapter 22: 6). It would be the bent of his mind in what is right. "The tenor of his way", is what is according to God. But as to natural matters, if he is qualified for a certain thing, let him go in for that. Generally speaking, what we are saying

enters into this. As going into business, young people are going into contrariety; instruct them about that; warn them about it. If they are looking for an easy way to build themselves up in this world, they are going contrary to the instruction of Scripture. Accepting wilderness conditions, they get contrariety right away, if they are at all loyal to the truth; they get it at school and in the office, and it is wisdom to accept it. God is putting it on them. The worldly man will revile; if he is a superior he may say insulting things when a stand is taken in confessing Christ; they are thus tested, and if walking in the Spirit they will submit, waiting for God to make a way out. I can say with certainty that those who take up this attitude will prosper in every way.

J.T.Jr. Moses had been forty years amongst the Egyptians, and was instructed in all their arts; yet, at the end of that time he thought of his brethren -- having no help from his mother and father in doing so.

J.T. Moses was brought up in the most dangerous circumstances, and God took him out of them. That is the incentive to keep on praying. He was not wilfully there, of course, but it brings out what God can do.

F.S.C. It is said in Acts 7"he thought that his brethren would understand that God by his hand was giving them deliverance" (verse 25).

J.T. Evidently Moses had light from God about that. He went out to look on his brethren; he would not have done that apart from light from God. God can give His children light to govern them even in the most adverse circumstances. Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. We may say that if a young man goes into one of the universities, he is in the greatest possible danger, and it is true; but here is a man whom God put there; he had all the Egyptians' advantages; but God worked in him and took him out of it. That is what God can do for our children. At the same time faithful parents will strive to keep their children

out of damaging surroundings. Moses did get light from God in Egypt, though he was out of the way of the influence of his parents. He not only got light but God placed him in circumstances in Midian to make him a competent minister.

J.S. Is that where, typically, he came into fellowship?

J.T. It would be when he identified himself with the Hebrews, "esteeming the reproach of the Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt", Hebrews 11:26. He identified himself with the despised race. After forty years he goes back. Pharaoh is removed: "It came to pass during those many days, that the king of Egypt died", Exodus 2:23. God has taken him away. Moses goes back now to become the leader of the people; he is subject and God is opening up the way for him. Then it says, "Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God -- to Horeb", Exodus 3:1. He is moving now into a spiritual region; but he is still keeping an eye on the flock. He gets his commission at Horeb. He has matured; he has developed to that, and now God takes him on, in chapter 3.

Ques. Is that not comforting to us today? There arose a Pharaoh that knew not Joseph; and then that king died. Will there not be an end to all those who oppress the people of God?

J.T. That is right; it is what God does. You just wait on God and suffer in the meantime. So Moses has these forty years of training, and God says, Pharaoh is out of the way; and Moses is commissioned to go back from Horeb into Egypt. He had been to Horeb and now he is to lead the people out of Egypt and the covenant is to be made at Horeb.

A.R. God appears to him now as "I AM" and "Jehovah" which must have affected his service.

J.T. Think of the wonderful time he had, as recorded in chapter 3! The time he had at the bush -- a mile-stone,

never forgotten; there is "the good will of him that dwelt in the bush", Deuteronomy 33:16. Moses did not forget that. He is being impressed with the knowledge of God in that position; that God Himself is in the bush, in keeping with where Moses would be later; a solemn lesson. There he is instructed in Jehovah's new Name; then the glories of Jah, the spiritual mysterious name of God that Moses came into later. Jehovah says, "If there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream. Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly", Numbers 12:6 - 8, showing that Moses was distinctly honoured. All this, in principle, comes into each of our histories in the measure in which we take up this attitude.

Ques. The prophet Isaiah says, "Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him, his glorious arm leading them by the right hand of Moses?" Isaiah 63:11, 12. Is that the prophetic view of Moses' position by the well in Exodus 2?

J.T. Just so. Hosea says, "by a prophet Jehovah brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved" (chapter 12: 13). Moses was that prophet.

Now we should go on to chapter 15. It is a question of the people being in the wilderness, and the provision that is made for them: "And they came to Elim; and twelve springs of water were there, and seventy palm trees; and they encamped there by the waters" (verse 27). That is, they were appropriating all this variety. God would thus come before them in a touching way. He is considering for them very fully. They had been drinking the bitter waters, but now there is fresh water in abundance. The assembly in the wilderness is now before us, and the point here is the liberal consideration of God for it at this juncture, and how the people appropriate it. It says, "And they encamped there by the waters". That is an enlargement from Moses sitting

by the well; here they are encamping. This is one of the many encampments recorded in Numbers 33.

C.A.M. The previous sentence records the name of Jehovah -- God's special name, "I am Jehovah who healeth thee" (verse 26).

J.T. Yes; the brackish waters and the wood are mentioned earlier; "And he cried to Jehovah; and Jehovah showed him wood, and he cast it into the waters, and the waters became sweet" (verse 25). God is now showing how He provides. A real difficulty came up, but God showed him wood, which, as cast into the waters, made them sweet. And the next thing is, "There he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he tested them". Typically, we are now being formed, you might say, in the fibre of our constitution, by coming under the statute: it is a fixed principle. "And he said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of Jehovah thy God, and do what is right in his eyes, and incline thine ears to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of the complaints upon thee that I have put upon the Egyptians; for I am Jehovah who healeth thee" (verse 26). It is God in His consideration for us in wilderness circumstances, but on the principle of subjection, keeping all His commandments; and then there is this wonderful provision of twelve springs of water and seventy palm trees. The one is the variety of the Spirits ministry, and the other is experience seen in personality. The seventy palm trees would suggest persons of spiritual distinction, whose influence affords protection.

J.T.Jr. It is not a divided ministry. Twelve suggests that the ministry, though varied, is not divided. We have divisions in christendom; various denominations; but this would suggest that the ministry is all one, and what one minister says agrees with another; there is no divergence. Peter stood up with the eleven.

J.T. Yes. The ministries of the twelve apostles were in agreement. We only hear of two or three of them in

the Acts of the Apostles as actually serving, but we can be sure they all worked according to the disposition of divine wisdom, and that they were united in their teaching and service generally. Their names are on the foundations of the wall of the heavenly city. Victorious persons of experience with God are in view, I believe, in the palm trees; you can safely come under the shelter of a brother who is himself victorious.

R.W.S. Would they be like Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus who preached the "Son of God, Jesus Christ", at Corinth?

J.T. That is right; Paul, Silvanus and Timotheus would be characteristically victorious, for they believed on the Son of God. "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God", 1 John 5:5. In Luke, the seventy whom the Lord sent out were specifically stated to be additional to the twelve. They were to go before the face of the Lord into every city and place where He was about to come. Local assembly formation is in mind, I believe. They were marked as possessing peace, according it to every house they entered -- a son of peace being found there. Peace is founded on righteous victory.

W.R. I suppose you see what is before us in the Lord's appointment of the twelve, giving them power over all demons and to heal diseases in Luke 9, and then He sends out seventy others also in Luke 10.

J.T. That is right; the seventy others are additional. There are twelve in chapter 9, and seventy in chapter 10.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (8)

Exodus 17:1 - 7; Numbers 20:1 - 13; Numbers 21:14 - 18

J.T. The assembly in the wilderness was before us last time, and the wells in that relation; Moses sitting by the well in Midian, and then Zipporah given to him; she is a type of the assembly. The assembly here on earth, in the wilderness, as seen in these types, affords us perhaps the most practical and humbling side of out subject, for in the wilderness the ugliness of the flesh appears. The Spirit of God, in these books, does not ignore the fleshly features that come out and are present always, alas! Hence there is the need of understanding the Spirit in these books as typified in wells or springs, or as coming out of the rock.

The epistles to the Corinthians are especially instructive in this part of our subject: the Lord's supper, the new covenant, government, etc. These are all features of the assembly in the wilderness, and they come before us in our meetings for prayer. Thus we cannot but see the importance of understanding the Spirit. It comes out in these books, too, in Leviticus 11:36, that a well of water is immune from defilement when other things are defiled; the well is immune because of the power to throw off evil. "Nevertheless, a spring or a well, a quantity of water, shall be clean". It is important to take that into account in our care meetings when dealing with wicked features. Without this power to throw off evil, even the care meeting would defile us; young brothers especially. The recognition of the Spirit in us in energy enables us to throw off what might defile us.

A.A.T. Is the woman in John 4 an example?

J.T. She threw off defilement, manifestly in the sense that she could go and speak to the men. She was no longer under their influence. That is a very important side of the matter; the power by the Spirit

to throw off things that would otherwise defile you, and make you unfit for assembly service.

H.H. You mean that the Spirit, in that way, keeps the saints morally apart from what is unclean?

J.T. Yes; the Spirit, as active, in the sense of a well, having scope in us, enables us to throw off a thing that would otherwise defile us. How could we touch these defiling things otherwise and not be defiled?

H.H. There is power; it is a fountain, it is not a mere effort. John 4 refers to "springing up".

J.T. Yet you are exercised about it, because the Spirit works in relation to our exercises.

Ques. Would the incident in the early part of John 8 be illustrative?

J.T. The accusers went out one by one; they could not take the matter up; the Lord and the woman alone remain. The whole position was perfectly clear. The light shone and forced out the evil. These considerations are very important. The time was when young brothers were not encouraged to attend the care meeting; some used to say positively that they should not be there. The young brothers are responsible, and as being there they should bear in mind that things may come before us that would damage them unless room is made for the Spirit in them; they are to have power to throw off the thing in self-judgment.

W.Ras. The Lord says in the end of Mark, "in my name they shall cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they should drink any deadly thing it shall not injure them", Mark 16:17, 18. Would that bear on this?

J.T. Yes; it is power to overcome evil; otherwise, we should be overcome. We are enjoined to overcome evil and not be overcome by it, but we can only overcome it by self-judgment in the power of the Spirit.

Ques. Is what you are speaking of supported by Romans 8:13: "but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live"?

J.T. Yes; putting them to death. Leviticus 11 contemplates the care of divine things, discerning good and evil, clean and unclean, so that we may be holy, seeing that God is holy (verses 43 - 45). The Lord touched the leper freely, showing that no evil power can damage Him. The same is true of us relatively by the energy of the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Joseph would be a type of that in the house of Potiphar. He was able to withstand evil.

J.T. That is the thought. You have power to overcome the evil, to flee youthful lusts; that is what he did.

H.H. His brethren were poor things; ten of them were under the power of a lie some twenty years.

J.T. No wonder Jacob said, Why do you look on one another? I suppose they were sly looks of collusion. Our calling is not to look on one another. It is, in this sense, in the recognition of the Spirit, to be active in mutual care and in purity and holiness.

A.N.W. Does that explain why the apostle dwells on the Passover in 1 Corinthians 5? The wicked person has to be dealt with. "For also our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed" (verse 7).

J.T. That is just the point. So "let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth" (verse 8); that is the continuous thing. So I thought it would be well to bring that passage in Leviticus into our consideration now. At the last reading we considered the twelve wells, and I think we saw it was more from the divine side. It is an administrative thought -- the twelve wells and the seventy palm trees -- two numbers that are made intelligible to us in the Lord's use of them; first in regard to the twelve apostles, and then the seventy that were sent out subsequently. Up to Exodus 15 it is all on the divine side in the way of provision for us, so that we have, as of the assembly, a certain allowance of grace; "Ye are saved by grace", Ephesians 2:8. The grace side is stressed -- God did not

take Israel by way of the Philistines lest they might be afraid and go back. He considered for their youthfulness and weakness spiritually, and so in chapter 15 we have the twelve wells of springing water and the seventy palm trees. These are divine provisions among the brethren viewed as the assembly. We come now to a serious state of things; the ugliness of the congregation; the complaining in spite of the fact that they are where God directed them to be; that is, in the wilderness of Sin. It says, "And all the assembly of the children of Israel journeyed from the wilderness of Sin, according to their journeys, at the command of Jehovah; and they encamped in Rephidim" (chapter 17: 1). So that they are where God would have them to be. Many are in fellowship nominally, but of a complaining spirit. The passage says, "And the people contended with Moses, and said, Give us water, that we may drink!" They are in the right position. They are governed by the word of God, the commandment of Jehovah; but they are complaining. Thus, being in the position that is governed by the word of God is not enough. This matter of complaint has to be met. How can you have bridal conditions; how can you have happy services with the Lord, unless the spirit of complaining is met and judged?

C.A.M. The complaining seems to be directed against the leadership.

J.T. Quite so. That is what is stated. "And the people contended with Moses, and said, Give us water, that we may drink!". They were looking to the leader instead of to God and were complaining. How can we have assembly features where there is the spirit of complaint or rebellion? God meets it in grace. He does not say anything against the people. Moses says to them, "Why do ye tempt Jehovah?" and then the passage goes on to say, "And the people murmured against Moses, and said, Why is it that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our

cattle with thirst? And Moses cried to Jehovah, saying, What shall I do with this people? Yet a little, and they will stone me! And Jehovah said to Moses, Go on before the people, and take with thee of the elders of Israel, and thy staff with which thou didst smite the river, take in thy hand, and go. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock on Horeb; and thou shalt strike the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink" (verses 3 - 6). God is not taking issue directly with the people, for He is bringing in the death of Christ to meet that; Christ is to be smitten, instead of ourselves. We see therefore, that what is needed, in these circumstances, is a ministry of divine grace to show how the Lord Jesus went down to meet a state that is so abhorrent to God. He has met it effectively in the cross, so that the Spirit comes to us; we have the Spirit through Christ's sufferings. "Moses cried to Jehovah". If the brethren have a crisis on hand, let us get to God. The word "cry" is very suggestive here.

H.H. Does 1 Corinthians show how the complaining man is dealt with? "For I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (chapter 2: 2). God had ended him in the death of Christ.

J.T. They needed that truth in Corinth. The apostle decided in his mind that he would not only minister that, but that he would not know anything more than that; he determined to know nothing "save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". It shows remarkable skill in the minister to conceal all his knowledge and keep to one thing, because it is the thing that is needed.

A.R. This complaint is out in the open. How would you meet complaints that are not in the open?

J.T. It is a question of transparency; it is a difficult matter to meet what you cannot prove. You are conscious that it is there, but you have to wait for the time for it to be brought out. God brings things out in

time. Prayer is peculiarly needed in such circumstances.

A.P.T. In John 12, the Lord meets the complaint of Judas with grace, does He not? He says, "Suffer her" (verse 7). It is only a very short time until he is exposed.

J.T. It was not long before it came out. He went out -- the light at the supper table effected this, John 13:30.

A.B.P. The question is raised in the last verse of the section, "Is Jehovah among us, or not?" (verse 7). It would hardly be right to say that because the state of a meeting is not good, that the Lord cannot be among us. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, for instance, in the consciousness that the Lord had certain rights there that He would not relinquish. Is it not a leverage in the soul that helps us through lean periods, that we know the Lord has committed Himself to something and that He will bring it through?

J.T. He gives us assurance; if two of us are agreed, we get things done. "Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 18:19. If two ask the Father who is in the heavens, the Lord says, it shall be done unto them -- unto those two. So it is manifest that God is with them. The thing is secured in their souls; and then the Lord adds, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them" (verse 20). That is another thing. The Father answers from heaven, but the Lord is present among us to do the thing; to help us deal with any difficulty.

A.B.P. The results would not depend only upon the faithfulness of the two. It would rather be on account of Christ, would it not? The rock is smitten.

J.T. That is what touches you in Exodus 17. It is intended to touch us. If we are not touched by this thought of the smiting of Christ, then there is very little hope for us.

H.H. The complaining would be met by the death of Christ in view of the Spirit being given?

J.T. That is what is meant. The Spirit is seen here as available. The waters flow as through the death of Christ; through the smiting of Christ. Of course, we must have the resurrection of Christ and the ascension of Christ in order to have the Spirit given, but the point stressed here is the smiting, because Jehovah says, "Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock on Horeb; and thou shalt strike the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink" (verse 6). The rod Moses used was his own rod by which he smote the river; so that the rights and authority of God are involved.

F.H.L. Psalm 78 speaks of the cleavage of the rock and the great abundance that flows out.

J.T. "Behold, he smote the rock, and waters gushed out, and streams overflowed", Psalm 78:20. This is the incident we are dealing with. The plural, "rocks", in verse 15, is more general. It says, "He clave rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the depths, abundantly; and he brought streams out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers".

J.T.Jr. Psalm 81 has a reference to Meribah, which is one of the names given in our passage: Meribah and Massah. "Thou calledst in trouble, and I delivered thee; I answered thee in the secret place of thunder; I proved thee at the waters of Meribah. Selah" (verse 7). Is there an allusion there to the way God met the evil through Moses' cry?

J.T. That seems to be the thought. You have a further allusion to it in Numbers 20. "These are the waters of Meribah, where the children of Israel contended with Jehovah" (verse 13). Massah means 'temptation', Meribah means 'contention'. They are together a land-mark reminding us of the ugliness of the flesh working in the assembly in the wilderness.

A.N.W. Moses says: "Why do ye dispute with me?" and "Why do ye tempt Jehovah?" (verse 2).

J.T. Contention is a terrible element among the people of God. "But if any one think to be contentious, we have no such custom", 1 Corinthians 11:16. Contention is very wrong. The school of Tyrannus (Acts 19) would not admit of that. Learning involves subjection to the truth and to the brethren.

A.A.T. Did the saints have the Spirit, in type, in chapter 17?

J.T. Well, they are not said to have drunk, but the inference is that they did. The psalm would show that they did, only here it is left vague, because things are shallow, and you cannot always be sure about such people, whether they have the Holy Spirit or not. What Jehovah said was, "And thou shalt strike the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink" (verse 6). That they may do it. The water is there to drink. In Numbers 20, it is said, "And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said to them, Hear now, ye rebels: shall we bring forth to you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his staff smote the rock twice, and much water came out, and the assembly drank, and their beasts" (verses 10 - 11). They did drink there. Certain elements may hinder you, but God gives you the Spirit in spite of them. The clerical element really interferes with the Spirit, hampers the operation of the Spirit; but God shows, in the second type, that He rises above that and gives plenty of water and the people actually did drink. Exodus 17 brings out the shallowness of the position, and although the water is there for them, it does not say expressly that they drank. That is a challenge to each of us. Have I taken up what it cost Christ so much to procure for me? The Psalms help us because they are experimental as to these historical matters, so that you learn from them that they must have drunk. If the water was there, you may be sure

they did, but the Spirit of God is not saying it in Exodus, because it is for me to challenge myself as to whether I have done it. The Lord says, "Come to me and drink", John 7:37. Have I done that?

F.S.C. Psalm 106 says, "they provoked his spirit, so that he spoke unadvisedly with his lips" (verse 33).

J.T. Yes; the people are blamed there, but in our chapter. Moses represents those who are responsible as ministers, and he is blamed.

W.R. Paul says to the Corinthians, "For also in the power of one Spirit we ... have all been given to drink of one Spirit", 1 Corinthians 12:13.

J.T. That is to promote unity and satisfaction; that we are together in satisfaction, all having one thing in common, as the Lord says, "Drink ye all of it", Matthew 26:27. That is all the persons -- all drink of the one thing. One of the greatest things is that we have the Spirit as involving unity; that we think the same thing; not only speak it, but think it, and thus learn together, holding the same truth. Why should we be disunited in any matter? The Spirit of God gives us the same thoughts and the same words.

A.B.P. At some care meetings there is a most definite sense that the conclusion reached is right, particularly when a scripture is brought forward which bears on the situation and gives divine authority for what is brought forward. Is that the kind of thing you have in mind in speaking of having the Spirit in view of unity?

J.T. Yes. Sometimes you wonder how things will go, but the Lord usually comes in and gives something that settles the matter, and you count on that.

H.H. You get that in Acts 15. A scripture was referred to, which settled the matter. "With this agree the words of the prophets", Acts 15:15.

J.T. Turning to Numbers 20, the sufferings of Christ are not in view. The people had spoken against Moses and Aaron again, and had contended with Moses. And

then verse 7 says, "And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Take the staff"; it is not the one with which he smote the river, but the staff, as if there was only this one now. "Take the staff, and gather the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes, and it shall give its water" (verse 8). Now, it is speaking to the rock. There is to be no smiting; instead of that, Moses smites it twice, as if to bring out the disobedience in the nominal christian ministers; that is, in the history of the public assembly, where, in general, men do as they wish. Instead of speaking only in relation to the rod, which is the rod that budded, that is, Aaron's rod -- the only one now that was of any real value -- Moses uses his own rod and smites the rock twice and calls the people rebels, and intimates that he is giving them water. The allusion is to the clerical element that interferes with the action of the Spirit and, in effect, hinders the people getting it. In spite of that, they get it and get it abundantly. God overruling the opposition. Otherwise, where would we be now? Because the recognised religious leaders would not let us go on with a meeting like this were it not for God's over-ruling hand.

C.A.M. You spoke of government in connection with Moses' staff; this would be an undue infliction of it.

J.T. Yes; the clerical idea is an assumption to authority; whereas priesthood is the thing that is needed now, and speaking instead of smiting.

F.H.L. Aaron is not mentioned in this connection in Exodus 17. The attack in Numbers 20 began against Moses and Aaron.

J.T. It comes in after Aaron's rod had budded; meaning that grace and life, in the priesthood, had come into evidence. Life goes along with the priesthood. The testimony is that our Priest ever liveth, and He is able to save to the uttermost. You cannot save people by smiting them. It is grace that saves. "For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this is not of

yourselves; it is God's gift", Ephesians 2:8. That is the point here. God is speaking to the people and giving plenty of water in spite of Moses.

H.H. Moses could never have used Aaron's rod that budded to smite the rock. There was enough evidence to show that he was on the wrong course, was there not?

J.T. He smote it twice. That is remarkable, showing how God exposes man's will, when at work in His things; we see here the length it will go. He did not smite the rock twice in Exodus 17, and he was told only to speak to it here, but he smites it twice. It is to bring out the innate disobedience in us, unless we judge ourselves.

J.T.Jr. The people had made him irritable. Evidently he is not seen in spiritual energy and the grace that marks it. "And Moses took the staff from before Jehovah, as he had commanded him", but then verse 11 says, "And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his staff smote the rock twice". Do you think he changed the staves?

J.T. Yes; at least, he took his own as well, as if to say, I will not give up my authority; you are rebels. That is what the people were in his eyes; what a change had come over the great servant, for he was the meekest man in all the earth. It is the antitype that is in the mind of the Spirit.

T.W. In chapter 27: 14 Jehovah tells him that he rebelled.

A.A.T. Paul in writing the first letter to the Corinthians did not use the rod, did he?

J.T. He said, "What will ye? that I come to you with a rod?" 1 Corinthians 4:21. He did not want to go with a rod, nor did he. He says, "I have sent to you Timotheus who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord" (he was not a rod man) "who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ". It shows the remarkable skill of Paul as over against what we get here. The

local men would smite you; get your money out of you, 2 Corinthians 11:20. These things have largely marked clericalism. Paul was not thus among the Corinthians, but the opposite.

H.H. Constantly having to do with difficulties among the saints may embitter the spirit of one serving, so that this is a plain word for us. We are to take heed how we speak of the saints; they belong to God.

A.R. This chapter brings in the priesthood of Christ as He is on high.

J.T. That is it; involving speaking. So the Lord speaks of the Holy Spirit from this point of view: "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13. It is speaking, not smiting. It is christianity. Christ is glorified in heaven and the Spirit is available to us here.

A.N.W. In Exodus 17 Moses is told to take the elders with him. Would that not have helped him in authority? He does not do that in Numbers 20.

J.T. No. Here it is "Take the staff ... and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock". It is priesthood.

A.B.P. Was there not a much deeper thing than irritability? Jehovah says to Moses and to Aaron, "Because ye believed me not" (verse 12). It was unbelief, evidently.

J.T. Unbelief was there -- for the time, at least. Thus, I think, this is intended to be a type of a much deeper thing which was not characteristic of Moses and Aaron. Thus they, in a way, had to suffer, so that the type should be clearly seen. It refers to the history of christendom, the long course of disregard for the word of God and limiting the Holy Spirit. If it were not for the over-abounding and over-ruling grace of God, there would be no water at all for us today. The commandment was given to speak to the rock, and use a certain rod or staff, and Moses did neither. So that it was out-and-out

rebellion on the part of the ministers, and that is why God says at the end, "Because ye believed me not, to hallow me before the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land that I have given them" (verse 12). So they are shut out. It is the antitype we have to deal with here and it is most solemn, for the full bearing of the type is towards what is around us today; and this fact, of course, interferes with the freshness and vigour of the assembly, which is in mind in these readings. The Spirit is speaking. I think it is one of the greatest things, that God has given the Holy Spirit in spite of the clerical element. Take Rome, which is the very essence of that element; it says that nothing can come to you except through that system. It is the height of rebellion, and what God is saying to us now here is that He has overcome that, and that we can come together in the recognition of the Spirit of God. These men would not let us be here if they had it in their power. Let no one forget it; if the devil gets his way in what is current today, the effort will be to rob the saints of their liberty. The antitype is in mind in Numbers 20; what has happened in the history of christendom, as seen in the leaders.

A.A.T. Were the Nicolaitanes a clerical element?

J.T. It is generally so understood. It is the clerical element coming in. So we have what was against the father in Pergamos: "Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you", Revelation 2:13. He was evidently against the fatherhood that was then dominant in the christian profession. His name would indicate that. If it were not that God acted sovereignly when the clerical idea took root in christianity it would soon have become wholly apostate, but God acted sovereignly and gave the water in spite of it; hence the continuance of vitality in the saints, eventuating in the remnant, and the revival of assembly liberty and the service of God. If He has His people here. He will stand by them and

develop in them what is in His mind, however few and feeble they may be. If men rebel against Him, He will show He is greater than they.

F.S.C. Does this, occurring at the end of the forty years, make it more applicable to us at the present time?

J.T. We are drawing near to the land now and God is saying, It is grace that is needed; it is life; it is priesthood; you will never get into the land by the rod. You must get in by the priesthood. That is the point here; it was the priestly rod they were to use, and to speak to the rock. Let us speak to God and not fail in the recognition of the Holy Spirit. Have I direct access to God, which clericalism would deny me? The assembly requires this. There can be no true service God-ward without the Holy Spirit.

C.A.M. It makes what we have very real at the present time. The end of the journey is near, and unbelief will keep us out of the land; this officialism also keeps us out.

E.McK. Is Paul in Acts 19 the opposite of Moses and Aaron here, as to the certain disciples he found at Ephesus?

J.T. Just so. "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Acts 19:2. It is not "as" but "when ye had believed". That is, the Spirit comes in after we believe. He had to announce the gospel to them, as the passage says, and then he laid his hands on them, and they received the Spirit. In Acts 8, it is said that Peter and John prayed for the Samaritans that they might receive the Spirit; that is how the Spirit comes. It is on the principle of speaking.

Numbers 20 brings out the idea of the collective ministry. God led Israel by Moses and Aaron and Miriam. It is a remarkable thing that Miriam has part in the ministry. Her death is recorded in the beginning of the chapter, and later Aaron dies; that is, the ministry is disappearing, and what is stressed is the priestly rod.

It is only by a living priesthood that we go into Canaan, for this brings in the power of the Spirit of God, which we shall see in the next scripture we read -- chapter 21: "And from thence to Beer: that is the well of which Jehovah spoke to Moses, Assemble the people, and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! sing unto it: Well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves" (verses 16 - 18). That is the thing. This is the manner of going into Canaan. It is the springing well; that is the power by which you go into Canaan; not by the rod of Moses; not by ministerial leadership or ministry, but by the Spirit of God.

'And see! the Spirit's power
Has ope'd the heavenly door,
Has brought us to that favoured hour
When toil shall all be o'er'. (Hymn 74)

It is the Spirit of God that takes us into heaven now; that is, in the sense of present experience. Christ will come for us and take us there literally.

J.T.Jr. Eleazar takes part with Joshua as leading the people into Canaan. In some respects he took precedence of Joshua. Is that in line with your thought of the Spirit?

J.T. Yes; it is the priesthood in a purely spiritual sense. We have before us now how to get into the land. It is by the springing well. The lawgiver is still there, because the principle of rule must always be present. His name is not mentioned; it is the lawgiver. The singing is not to him, but to the well -- the Spirit of God. It was said a moment ago that while in our present condition, we go into heaven by the Spirit, but that means in spiritual power. We will go into heaven physically by and by when the Lord comes for us.

A.R. Is that why Paul says, "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing also with the understanding", 1 Corinthians 14:15? That helps you get inside.

J.T. That is right; so that our hymn singing is very important in assembly service, as helping us in the service to move into the presence of God.

H.H. There is a note in connection with, "Rise up, well! sing unto it". It is response.

J.T. The idea of alternate singing. Miriam represented that as a sort of ministerial side, but she dies; her voice is now silent. It is another voice now -- sing to the Spirit. She sang to the Lord, she and the women of Israel, but she is dead, so it is not objective singing that is in mind here. It involves power in our souls. "I will sing with the spirit". Not by light only, but also with the spirit and with the understanding; that is, in the power of what is known in us.

C.A.M. Speaking of the Spirit in connection with our going to heaven, I was thinking about John in the last book of the Bible; he heard "as of a trumpet speaking with me, saying, Come up here", Revelation 4:1. Immediately, he became in the Spirit. His body, of course, was here on earth, was it not?

J.T. Quite so. It shows how we enter into heavenly places now. We do not go into heaven bodily. Paul may have, of course. He says "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows); such a one caught up to the third heaven", 2 Corinthians 12:2. We may assume that when John says, "I became in the Spirit", it was an inward matter. The idea of singing is very important. We talk much about this because our meetings are often marred by the giving out of certain hymns at the wrong time. Many of our hymns are mixed so that it needs discrimination to use them aright. Therefore, the knowledge of the hymn book is important. I may give out a part of a certain hymn, whereas if I give out the entire hymn I may confuse the brethren.

F.N.W. "Then Israel sang this song", Numbers 21:17.

J.T. This is the one -- not another. The very words are given. "Rise up, well! sing unto it: well which princes digged". Clearly the well is the objective in the words that are given -- "... which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves". The staves would mean experience. The hymnbook is pretty much that. There is ability, of course, in the authors, but experience as well. The book of the Psalms is an experimental working out of the truth, the Pentateuch having a prominent place. We get confirmation of the Pentateuch in the Psalms.

C.A.M. Singing to the well as an objective would not suggest exactly singing to the Spirit, would it?

J.T.

'Praises for the Holy Ghost,
Sent from heav'n at Pentecost;
'Tis through Him that now we live'. (Hymn 191)

You feel you cannot say, No, to that. And yet you would seek to be governed by scriptural example. This, however, is sparing. At the same time Scripture is most definite as to the Spirit's equality in the Godhead, and this warrants His being honoured as the Father and the Son are; but, as remarked, we should be governed by the teaching of Scripture and the examples it affords. In Hebrews 10 we read of those who have insulted the Spirit of grace. He has taken a low place in grace to maintain the truth of the divine economy, and we must be extremely careful not to trench on His deity.

H.H. The recognition of that in our meetings is most important.

A.R. Giving out a hymn should be done in a priestly way. It says here that the princes digged the well and the nobles of the people hollowed it out. That is, it is princely people making room for the Spirit of God.

J.T. That is right. Many of our hymns were written before our time, and we come into the gain of them. "At the word of the lawgiver" would mean that I recognise the will of God in the thing. I am to be always

governed by Him. The staves would probably allude to the princes' experience: "which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves". The book of Exodus stresses the idea of a staff. Jehovah says to Moses, "What is that in thy hand? And he said, A staff", Exodus 4:2. That is the point. What experience have you had so far? God says, I can use that, if it is experience with Me; and that is what Moses' rod represented; he had experience with God; this is basic as to authority -- in Moses' case he was divinely clothed with authority. God appeared to him in the bush, but Moses asserting that the people would not hear him, God inquired, "What is that in thy hand?" Moses answered, "A staff". God could use that. Later it is called the staff of God. It thus became the symbol of divine authority committed to Moses.

Ques. When David delivered the psalm to be sung through Asaph and his brethren, he made a selection from several psalms, making them one (1 Chronicles 16:7 - 36). Is that the way we should operate?

J.T. It is a divinely given example for us in the use of hymns. Many of our hymns are mixed and they cannot always be rightly sung throughout in the service of God. In such a case only the portion suited to the moment should be announced. Disregard of this often causes confusion.

A.B.P. Do the addresses to the seven churches indicate it is the mind of heaven there should be equal response to the Spirit's voice all down the church's history?

J.T. I think so. The Spirit is referred to in each address; it is what He says to the assemblies. He is there and active all the time. Let us have an ear to hear what He says.

Now, Israel is going out of the wilderness in Numbers 21:19; the Spirit typically having been responded to: "And from the wilderness they went to

Mattanah; and from Mattanah to Nahaliel; and from Nahaliel to Bamoth; and from Bamoth to the valley that is in the fields of Moab, to the top of Pisgah, which looks over the surface of the waste". That is, there is definite movement in the right direction. That is what God is calling to our attention now as to Christ and the assembly; the assembly is viewed in the wilderness, and we are to go on until we move out of it into heavenly places.

R.W.S. There are two allusions in the Song of Songs to coming out of the wilderness. Would they fit in?

J.T. Yes; in chapters 3 and 8.

A.R. In Matthew and Mark, it is said that after they had sung a hymn they went out to the mount of Olives.

J.T. Jerusalem, at that time, was indeed a wilderness; everything was against Christ. Going to the mount of Olives refers to the spiritual and heavenly side of the service of God now.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (9)

Psalm 84:5 - 7; Psalm 114:8; Deuteronomy 6:10, 11; Deuteronomy 8:7 - 10

J.T. The assembly in the wilderness has engaged us during the recent readings. It has been pointed out that the ministry of the assemblies thus viewed, typified in Zipporah, contemplates certain fleshly features that have to be owned, that have marked its history, and still mark it. What will come before us in these four scriptures this evening, will give an opportunity to speak of the other side, namely, the gain of the wilderness experience. The two scriptures from the Psalms are significant as depicting certain experiences in the wilderness, not necessarily the actual wilderness of Sinai, but what has this character; and for the christian, the wilderness always exists. The two in Deuteronomy will show how that in the wilderness, we anticipate the land of promise; that is, heaven as presently realised, where all is of God. Wells have not to be digged there, as in the wilderness. There is plenty of water gushing forth without any toil on our part. These two scriptures, therefore, will help us as to the service of God in the assembly, where we reach a point where all is of God. We are impressed with the bounty of God apart from the product of our own exercises.

Psalm 84 points to what accrued in the wilderness experience; that is, those who passed through the valley of Baca. They make it a well-spring; they make it that. Instead of being overwhelmed by the pressure of the wilderness, they gain in experience, being able to overcome through the well-spring. They are described: "Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee -- they, in whose heart are the highways. Passing through the valley of Baca, they make it a well-spring; yea, the early rain covereth it with blessings. They go from strength to strength: each one will appear before God in Zion", Psalm 84:5 - 7.

J.T.Jr. The title of the psalm is helpful too, is it not? "To the chief Musician. Upon the Gittith". The note refers to Psalm 8, and says, 'A musical instrument'. The word is feminine as Psalm 81 and Psalm 84; from a root meaning vat or press. Evidently it suggests pressure.

J.T. And it is "Of the sons of Korah", which would allude to the sovereign mercy of God.

A.N.W. The meaning of Baca is weeping.

J.T. That is very applicable today; there is so much cause for weeping and, indeed, so much weeping. It is not only in the world but among the people of God, too. We have joy, but we have also the sorrow, especially in disrupted families and bereaved persons, and also in some of the young people, and others, too, turning away from the truth. The psalm, therefore, is an encouragement, because it shows that faith, by the Spirit, overcomes.

A.B.P. The altars would appear to be in disuse, if the sparrow had found them as a place for her house.

J.T. The allusion would be to what is available there, the Lord using the word sparrow as denoting what is apparently insignificant, but yet it does not fall without God. "The sparrow hath found a house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she layeth her young, thine altars, O Jehovah of hosts, my King and my God" (verse 3). The early verses would point to what is available to outwardly small things. "How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Jehovah of hosts! My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of Jehovah; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God. Yea, the sparrow hath found a house" (verses 1 - 3). I thought it would show how liberal the house is in its receptiveness, and what it avails for such as might be represented in the sparrow and the swallow. In this sense the birds would be typical. They avail themselves of what affords them shelter. The swallow can lay her young on the altars of God. Typically, these creatures represent those who

do not need to be great outwardly, in order to have a share in the house of God.

R.W.S. Does this psalm represent the secret, victorious side, collateral with the ugly features that are public?

J.T. That is what I thought. We have enlarged on the ugly features of the assembly in the wilderness, but that is only one side of the picture. We saw that in Corinthians, for instance, but even Corinth itself is not without evidence of the delightful side of the truth. The assembly is viewed as the Christ in Corinthians -- the anointed vessel of God, typified in Exodus 40. Abstractly, there is no disparity there. Then, it also says that the saints at Corinth were temple of God, as indwelt by the Holy Spirit. There are many other such expressions in both epistles, but when we come to Ephesians, we have the full thought. We come into the power and gain of the Spirit as in this psalm, and make the wilderness a well-spring. "Yea, the early rain covereth it with blessings" (verse 6). So that the wilderness, according to these two psalms, affords distinct and permanent gain for us, adverse though it be; and that, of course, enhances the assembly in its service.

Psalm 114 speaks about what Israel was when she came out of Egypt: "When Israel went out of Egypt, the house of Jacob from a people of strange language, Judah was his sanctuary, Israel his dominion. The sea saw it and fled, the Jordan turned back; the mountains skipped like rams, the hills like lambs. What ailed thee, thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou turnedst back? Ye mountains, that ye skipped like rams? ye hills, like lambs? Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the God of Jacob, who turned the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters". Faith, in the wilderness; would see these things and understand. They happened in that part of the history when Israel went out of Egypt. So that it was not all sorrow; it was not all

complaining. Faith could see more than that, and that is the thing for us now to see, whatever there is of God, small though things be, and sorrowful, too. The book of Ezekiel shows that in one sense it was only sin all the way through, beginning with Egypt, until they entered the land, and also in the land; but then there was another side, and these psalms show that. Joshua and others, who saw things spiritually, grow in the truth all the way through. So that Caleb is as able at the end of that journey, as he was at the beginning.

A.R. From Psalm 84 it would appear as if the service of God goes on uninterruptedly. It says in verse 4, "Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be constantly praising thee. Selah". In spite of the valley of Baca and the sorrow, the service of God goes on.

J.T. That is very beautiful. "In whose heart are the highways" (verse 5). That is, you apprehend the thing, by faith, in the eyes of the heart. The highways are in the heart. You will not turn aside in the wilderness. You will not fall there. You go right through.

A.N.W. Is that why the first part of that verse is in the singular, challenging each one of us individually? "Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee".

J.T. I think that is the way the experience is presented, whatever anyone of us may be. You may not be a Caleb, or a Joshua. Jehovah, at Sinai, began by saying, "... showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me", Exodus 20:6. It is not the thousands that ought to love Him, but those who do; so that there must have been many in Israel in whose hearts were the highways.

A.R. Thus, in spite of the pressure that is going on all over the world, it must be very pleasurable to heaven to take account of the week-ends in which the service of God goes on in many places. Through grace we have part in it.

J.T. That is a great matter. God begins the wilderness journey with the thousands of those who love Him, and if a man of faith heard that, he would say, 'I must

find those thousands. He says there are thousands of those who love Him, and He shows mercy to them. I would like to find them out'. No doubt there were many who did find them, those who loved Him in the camps of Israel, in the booths; for they dwelt in booths as they started. They were near each other in the exchange of love -- at least, typically. That is the position today; there are those who take sides with the truth, because they love God. "He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me", John 14:21. There were the Levites who stood with Moses at the time of the golden calf. They took sides with the truth. Every man slew his brother. "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19. That corresponds with what we have been referring to.

F.N.W. The apostle Paul says, "But if any one love God, he is known of him", 1 Corinthians 8:3.

J.T. Yes; "he is known of him". God has His own way of showing that He knows. There are relatively few; but still, there are thousands, and He knows them and would recognise each one. God recognises His lovers. The highways to Zion, for us, involve the wilderness. There were no roads in the wilderness. The tabernacle and the pillar of fire marked the way.

'Is the wilderness before thee,
Desert lands where drought abides?
Heavenly springs shall there restore thee,
Fresh from God's exhaustless tides.

Light divine surrounds thy going,
God Himself shall mark thy way;
Secret blessings, richly flowing,
Lead to everlasting day'. (Hymn 76)

Those lines are beautiful as marking all this; how the way is made for us by the light of God in the tabernacle. Each one was to keep his eye on the tent of meeting; as it moved, he moved. Thus the way was

made, but the first movement would be in the heart. "This is the way, walk ye in it", Isaiah 30:21. So in the Acts, "the way" is, in a sense, a synonym of christianity; it is the way out of the world into God's world.

F.H.L. Would Isaiah 35 develop it a little? "And the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose" (verse 1).

J.T. The Scriptures are very full of this, affording a way out of the world; through the world as a wilderness, but out of it into Canaan; the heart is sustained by the well-spring and the rain that fills the pools. The way was marked by the movement of the cloud on the tabernacle. But what comes out is that while the cloud led the people up to the period mentioned in Numbers 21, then you have the well. The princes digged the well. From that point on, it is a question of the Holy Spirit; the way is by the Spirit. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14.

G.V.D. The sons of Korah had been through the experience of being brought low and got the gain of it.

J.T. I think that is what is meant. The author is not given. It is in relation to the sons of Korah, or for them, but it is definitely called a psalm, meaning an experience that some one had. You want to get in touch with the man who has experience in the ways of God, and that is what this psalm means.

W.B-w. The well springs up. It is a well-spring, and the early rain covers the earth with blessing. Does that refer to the ministry?

J.T. The rain is the blessing of heaven, really. The spring is the Spirit in the believer working out through his affections. So that in spite of the pressure there is joyousness and buoyancy. It is what springs up in the inwards. David in Psalm 103 calls upon all that is within him to praise Jehovah; he taxes his affections to praise God.

W.B-w. How does the early rain fit in with that?

J.T. It would be ministry; there was the early and the latter rain. It refers to the seasons; what, as given

suitably, promotes growth. The early rain was at the time of sowing; that is, at the beginning of sowing the rains would cause refreshment to the soil.

A.A.T. The assembly at Smyrna (Revelation 2), went through much pressure. The word to it is, "I know thy tribulation and thy poverty; but thou art rich; and the railing of those who say that they themselves are Jews, and are not, but a synagogue of Satan. Fear nothing of what thou art about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days" (verses 9, 10). The valley of Baca.

J.T. Yes; the Lord was pointing out how long it would be; that Satan can go just so far. There would be ten days of suffering. The comfort is that it can only go so far. The devil has not a free hand. Many of them came into the valley of Baca and made it a well-spring. In the history of the assembly we have many illustrations of this very thing. How glorious were the real martyrs, in their testimony and in their enjoyment too!

W.F.K. Would this well-spring be special ministry?

J.T. It would be rather what you make it yourself. They make it; that is, the weeping gives place to joy. Our sorrow is turned into joy. The Lord told the disciples that would happen. "Your grief shall be turned to joy", John 16:20. "In the world ye have tribulation; but be of good courage: I have overcome the world" (verse 33).

A.R. Perhaps one of the best examples is in Acts 16. It was certainly the valley of weeping for Paul and Silas, but they were praising and blessing God.

J.T. The rain is additional. The well-spring is what you call upon in yourself. John 4 points to that, springing up into eternal life; but then there is an additional thing in ministry that comes to us, and you sit down and enjoy it. It carries blessing with it; that is, the

seed sown develops and grows through it. God's testing discipline goes on in the wilderness through the experience there; the hard experiences that we have. And as you accept it, according to Hebrews 12, enduring chastening, there is a good result -- partakers of God's holiness. The believer is tested by the experiences of the wilderness, and you will find that you overcome by what is within -- the springing up of the well -- and then the rain is objective ministry that comes to you. You sit down and enjoy it. It brings blessing, for it is the early rain, which affects the sowing. Therefore, you will have a harvest. "Have patience, therefore, brethren, till the coming of the Lord. Behold, the labourer awaits the precious fruit of the earth, having patience for it until it receive the early and the latter rain", James 5:7.

A.B.P. Going to the meeting at night and getting refreshed is not all. There would be more for God if there were overcoming in the trying circumstances of the day. Then the meeting at night would be like the rain.

J.T. Just so. Many of us know the care and pressure in the households, and elsewhere, but it is a matter of making it a well-spring. It is the Spirit within. What you receive in the assembly is additional. The latter rain would allude to what would be necessary as the growing time continues. It is not any less in value than the early rain.

W.F.K. It would be like Romans 7 and 8; the eighth chapter being the operation of the Spirit.

J.T. That is how it works out. Romans 5 is the acceptance of wilderness conditions. "Knowing that tribulation works endurance; and endurance, experience; and experience, hope; and hope does not make ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us" (verses 3 - 5). That is the secret of the well-spring. Chapter 8 brings out the well-spring because it definitely

treats of the Spirit within us, and what it issues forth in.

A.A.T. Do you connect verse 7 with the service of God?

J.T. "They go from strength to strength; each one will appear before God in Zion". Strength to strength here is something like glory to glory in 2 Corinthians 3:18. The next thing is appearing before God in Zion. That is, we do not fail to be at the meetings. We do not stop short of the full thought of God to appear before Him. The way into the holiest is open to us, so that, "Let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith, sprinkled as to our hearts from a wicked conscience, and washed as to our body with pure water", Hebrews 10:22. We appear before God in Zion. He loves Zion.

Romans 7 is what goes on inside the believer in view of the Spirit, so that He may have scope. Chapter 6 is the wilderness, where you are baptised. Baptism brings you into the wilderness publicly, preparatory to the experiences that you have to go through there. Chapter 7 is to develop and to clarify the inwards. Chapter 5 states that "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". Well then, make room for Him there. The heart is one organ. Some of us were saying lately of the two on the way to Emmaus, that their heart burned, but their other organs did not react to that. They did not go back to Jerusalem because their heart burned. That was only one organ. Romans 7 shows how all the organs are brought into action. Things are cleared away by self-judgment so that there is deliverance. That makes way for chapter 8 where you get the full result of the Spirit operating in the believer.

A.R. How would you work out this psalm? It says, "Jehovah, God of hosts, hear my prayer; give ear, O God of Jacob. Selah. Behold, O God our shield, and look upon the face of thine anointed" (verses 8, 9). Then

the psalmist says, "Jehovah Elohim is a sun and shield: Jehovah will give grace and glory; no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly" (verse 11). The use of divine names here is remarkable.

J.T. It is a wonderful psalm, one of the most remarkable of them. Finally it says, "Jehovah of hosts, blessed is the man that confideth in thee!" (verse 12). That is the finish; the blessedness of the man that confides in Jehovah. The psalm depicts that blessedness. It is well worth taking to heart, and being one of those men.

W.B-w. One of the characteristic features of this third book of Psalms is the sanctuary. Does that fit here?

J.T. It does. Asaph is the main writer in the book; most of these psalms are his. Who is he? He is a leading singer. He is a man to follow. He was distressed, according to Psalm 73, but he says, "Until I went into the sanctuaries of God; then understood I their end" (verse 17). All now is clear to him. Hence these psalms are so full of encouragement to the believer. David, in Psalm 72, contemplates Solomon in dominance. "The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended" (verse 20). All is well above. Everything is secured in Christ; everything of God is yea and amen in Him. Our own state of soul is the difficulty. Asaph is troubled with his inward difficulties, but he gets them clarified when he enters into the sanctuaries of God.

W.B-w. Psalm 72 ends the second book, and Psalm 73 begins with the sanctuaries. Is that the thought?

J.T. That is right. The third book is mainly Asaph's book and he gives a good lead, because he shows how you get things clear by entering the sanctuaries of God.

J.T.Jr. Paul was greatly pressed also. He speaks about combats without and fears within, and yet he says that when Titus came he had great joy. The tide was turned; Titus came from Corinth where he had

been greatly refreshed through what he found there. Is that not the way things work? Localities are judging themselves and thus the position is changed and affords refreshment.

J.T. Exactly. Those who go about seeking to serve the saints have opportunity to see what goes on and are refreshed. They carry tidings back and spread it abroad so that others are refreshed. That is how the work is going on; the joy and the sorrow are mingled. Let us not fail to make the most of the joy!

W.B-w. Does Psalm 113 suggest power?

J.T. That is the point. First, what Israel was to God. "Judah was his sanctuary" (verse 2). I suppose Judah would represent the full thought of the service of God in David -- David and Solomon are outstanding in the service of God, and that is how the matter stood; although it was not in Judah at first, it was in Levi. It was Moses and Aaron, originally, but ultimately it was David and Solomon. That is the highest part of God's service. It would seem that was in view. "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, the Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared", Exodus 15:17. All that runs on to David. That is how the matter stood; great power marked Israel from this standpoint. The psalm depicts this, ending with God: "Who turned the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters", Psalm 114:8. It is the power of God.

W.B-w. I was wondering why he ends up with the rock. He speaks of power at the Red Sea, power at the Jordan, and then he comes back to this rock.

J.T. I suppose Exodus 17 is in mind. The allusion here is more to the hardness of it -- the flint. In spite of that. God turned it into a fountain of waters. That is what God can do for us.

A.B.P. Does not that verse suggest the complete journey? The sea was at the beginning and the Jordan

at the end; also the rock is mentioned twice; at the beginning and at the end of the journey.

J.T. That is the idea, I think. It is really wilderness experience; although the psalm would be written in a later day, he is alluding to the wilderness experiences. It is what anyone who had faith could have entered into during the wilderness experience. It is to stimulate us by being reminded of what others realised in the wilderness. Why should I not realise it, too? The last verse would show that God can overcome the hardness: "Who turned the rock into a pool of water, the flint into a fountain of waters"; that is, He changed the very hardness, making it yield refreshment.

A.N.W. In Psalm 84, it is what we should do. "They make it a well-spring". In this psalm it is the power of God turning the rock into the means of refreshment.

Ques. What is the suggestion in the statement that Israel is His dominion and Judah is His sanctuary?

J.T. The idea of the sanctuary is in Judah. The dominion was in Israel. It contemplates an undivided Israel. Division took place later. This is the full thought of God; it is nothing less than Israel, and the sanctuary in Judah. I would take it to represent David and Solomon. They had the sanctuary in Judah, but Israel was the dominion. The full divine thought was there. Dominion alludes to kingship.

W.B-w. There were two rocks in the wilderness, one at the beginning and one at the end. Does this refer to the first rock?

J.T. There are two things to look at; one is that the Rock was Christ who followed them. From that point of view, the two ideas merge; it is one Christ, in Exodus 17 and Numbers 20 -- the Rock which followed them. But here the allusion is rather to the hardness of that from which God caused the water to flow.

Ques. Is the word turning important -- the way God turns things for us? Sometimes things are very difficult, and they are just turned the opposite way.

J.T. God "turned the rock"; it is not simply that there were springs in the wilderness, but the thing itself is turned; the hardness is turned into refreshment. The flint, which is an extremely hard substance, was turned into a fountain of water. That is a very great comfort in hard circumstances. Every one of us must have them, but God is ready to change them for us.

Let us now look at the passage in Deuteronomy. It is still the ministry of Moses in the wilderness, but at the end of it. He is talking in the wilderness about what is in the land. He is not going in, but he knows what is there. So it is what we have anticipatively in the service of God; the encouragement as to what we are coming into. "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10. That is in the wilderness epistle, but it is there to encourage us as to what is beyond. "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us", Romans 8:18. We should have great encouragement in these verses in Deuteronomy 6. Moses is telling Israel that God "bringeth thee into the land which he swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee: great and good cities which thou buildedst not, and houses full of everything good which thou filledst not, and wells digged which thou diggedst not, vineyards and oliveyards which thou plantedst not, and thou shalt have eaten and shalt be full" (verses 10, 11). It is not now that the princes digged the well in the wilderness. That refers to self-judgment in us, under authority; but here it is what we find; what is in the land. Everything is provided. It is our destiny; and it is mentioned here to encourage us not to stop short of going across the Jordan into the land. Moses is telling them what is there. God honoured him by showing him

the land; he did not enter it, but he told Israel about it, according to this book.

A.B.P. Did J.N.D. touch on this in the hymn, 'By the Spirit all pervading' (Hymn 14), and also when he wrote,

And see! the Spirits power
Has ope'd the heavenly door,
Has brought us to that favoured hour
When toil shall all be o'er. (Hymn 74)

J.T. Quite so. His hymns are full of these great thoughts. We have light brought back to us as to it, and it is to encourage us to go in -- not to stop short of going in. Moses said to his father-in-law, "Come with us, and we will do thee good; for Jehovah has spoken good concerning Israel", Numbers 10:29. The whole book of Deuteronomy stresses the good, showing the great and glorious things God is bringing us into. Let us go on and not stop short! Let us not fall in the wilderness! Thus we shall answer to what the assembly is in the wilderness, according to God.

Ques. Paul is ahead of Moses, is he not, in the outshining of the truth? He went up as far as the third heaven. He got into it himself; he was in the land.

J.T. That is right. He could speak of what he heard there. He says that he was "caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter", 2 Corinthians 12:4.

A.R. Perhaps the book of Hebrews would correspond with it. The Hebrew saints were inclined to be earthly-minded, and Paul says a great deal about Christ in heaven, encouraging the brethren to go in.

J.T. That is the thing. "Let us also therefore ... run with endurance the race that lies before us, looking steadfastly on Jesus the leader and completer of faith: who, in view of the joy lying before him, endured the cross, having despised the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God", Hebrews 12:1, 2.

A.N.W. Can we be rightly in the wilderness, without this view before us?

J.T. We shall not be there buoyantly. We shall not be saying, 'Come with us and we will do thee good, for God has spoken good concerning Israel'.

D.P. Would Moses on the mount of transfiguration come into the full gain of the land?

J.T. We may say he was in the land. He was in the land talking with Jesus; he and Elias. Still, these great men represent the testimony there. They do not share the full place of the assembly.

A.A.T. Do these verses anticipate the land, and connect with the service of God?

J.T. Yes. Typically, Moses is telling us of what is there. Anyone who has been there in any measure can speak of the place, according to that measure. No one of us can assume to have gone up like Paul, but still there is something that can be said, as already quoted from Hymn 74. That is something you may understand, and if you have tasted it you can tell others about it. It is a wholly spiritual matter. We encourage one another by what we have experienced, and that is what the Psalms largely signify; telling others about our experiences.

A.A.T. You are speaking of individual experience. Is this not an assembly position?

J.T. It is; but each one of us, according to the work of God in himself, may reach into this. We are not all of the same stature. A person who is just converted can say very little, experimentally; whereas a man who has been on the way for years has experienced things, and the psalms indicate that he can tell you something about them; and it is to encourage you to go on to the same things, because it is open to you. The twelve spies went up to search out the land, and they brought back tidings of it, and that is the idea; you can bring back tidings of what is there if you have enjoyed anything of it.

Ques. How do you regard the resources of chapter 6 -- "oliveyards which thou plantedst not", and so on?

J.T. The viewpoint is rather what God does. The things were all there before them, as they went in. They are typical of what God has for us. He says, in principle, You did not build them -- "Good cities which thou buildedst not, and houses full of everything good which thou filledst not, and wells digged which thou diggedst not, vineyards and oliveyards which thou plantedst not". Literally, men did it, but that is not the point. It is what the believer finds. It is what the pilgrim here finds when he gets into the land of promise. God has it all for him. So that our chapter says, "For Jehovah thy God bringeth thee into a good land, a land of water-brooks, of springs, and of deep waters, that gush forth in the valleys and hills; a land of wheat, and barley, and vines, and fig-trees, and pomegranates; a land of olive-trees and honey; a land wherein thou shalt eat bread without scarceness", Deuteronomy 8:7 - 9. That is what you find in the land. This is a much fuller statement than that in chapter 6, especially as to water; and, of course, this is our subject. It is a "land of water-brooks, of springs, and of deep waters, that gush forth in the valleys and hills". It is most expressive of what is in the land for us.

D.P. Is this the ministry of the new covenant?

J.T. This is not the new covenant. It is the land of promise, of which God had spoken to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That is what is in mind here, as you will observe in chapter 6: "God bringeth thee into the land which he swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee" (verse 10). It is a question of the land of promise which was spoken of before there was any covenant with Israel at all. It was a promise to Abraham, and now Israel is going into it. The twelve spies went up and saw these things, and hid them in their hearts; at least Joshua and Caleb did; and now they are going into them. Caleb and Joshua correspond to the Holy Spirit, of whom the Lord says, "The Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall

bear witness concerning me", John 15:26, and, "He will announce to you what is coming" (chapter 16: 13). He would tell them of heavenly things. The apostles could tell of the path of Jesus here below because they had been with Him, but the Holy Spirit brings out tidings of the heavenly land, and that is the ministry of Paul, the heavenly side of the truth. That is what Moses is speaking about here. It imparts a heavenly character to the saints as of the assembly, in view of our translation to heaven.

A.R. When Paul said to the Corinthians, in his wilderness epistle, "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago", it would be to stimulate them to go in, would it not?

J.T. It is like the testimony of the twelve spies. Paul was there and could tell them what was there. No doubt there was much more than was written about that visit by Paul to heaven. No doubt there were things of which he would have spoken in detail to encourage the saints to go in for the heavenly side of the truth.

Ques. Would you link on the thought of the water-brooks with the epistle to the Ephesians?

J.T. Yes; it is what is gushing forth. Psalm 104 as an analogy helps. It refers to the earth, but it is what God did creatively. "He sendeth the springs into the valleys: they run among the mountains" (verse 10). The heavenly land also comes from the hand of God for the saints. Think of the wonderfulness of it -- that "eye hath not seen nor ear heard!" Of course, we have been saying that, typically, the spies brought tidings of it down; but it is really the Holy Spirit that brings it down; no natural eye has seen it. The Holy Spirit reveals it to us, for He "searches ... the depths of God". As we make room for Him, He will bring heavenly things to us so that we may go in for them.

R.W.S. Does the contemplation and enjoyment of this furnish material in the heart for the service of God?

J.T. Clearly; you become a heavenly man. You take part in it in heavenly power. That is the idea in Ephesians; "And has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" (chapter 2: 6). The house of God down here is a counterpart of that. "Ye are no longer strangers and foreigners, but ye are fellow-citizens of the saints, and of the household of God" (verse 19). That involves the heavenly part of the service of God; we come into what is entirely of God, what He has prepared for us; what we enter into by the Spirit's power.

Rem. In Hebrews, Christ is said to be bringing many sons to glory. Here it is "Jehovah thy God bringeth thee" (verse 7). It is what God has in His mind for us.

J.T. Quite so. He brings us there. In the wilderness, it is, "I have brought you to myself". That was at Mount Horeb; but this is the inheritance in the place "that thy" (Jehovah's) "hands have prepared". That is the idea. Moses would say that with great feeling.

Ques. What would the stones of iron suggest?

J.T. Richness; what is so much spoken of today; resources, such as oil, rubber, iron, and everything that man needs, in abundance. That is what you get in certain places on earth, but heaven yields everything that divine love can devise for its objects, and that is what we are to come into. The Holy Spirit is the Earnest of this inheritance, so we have it already, in this sense. Any yield to God is the result of the saints entering into these things. Our service in the assembly requires that we should enter on the heavenly side, so that we should be strong enough to take part in the whole service of God -- "In order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able

to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God", Ephesians 3:16 - 19.

WELLS AND SPRINGS (10)

Joshua 15:16 - 19; Judges 5:11; Judges 7:1 - 8

J.T. We have in Achsah the assembly typified as in the land, as belonging to heavenly places. Although we are still here on earth, this applies to the saints now, for it is said, "God ... has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus", Ephesians 2:6. This phase of the assembly's position, involving spiritual enjoyment, can only be by the Spirit, because, clearly, it is in heavenly places. The upper springs would allude to that. It is only in the power of the Spirit that we can enter upon this ground consciously; not only having the light of it, but consciously entering into it by the Spirit. It is definitely a heavenly position, so that Achsah asks for springs of water; she had a south land, but she wanted springs of water. The inheritance being south would suggest favourableness. God "has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ", Ephesians 1:3. The Spirit is alluded to in the springs.

C.A.M. It was a gift by her father!

J.T. Yes. He had a distinguished history, and her husband, Othniel, was related to him, so that family feeling and spiritual affinity are strong there. We are in the most exalted and blessed environment in this type. The husband is distinguished in his military prowess, the father outstandingly distinguished, and now the spouse is distinguished in her understanding of what is needed in the position. This blessing is needed. In addressing her father, Achsah is marked by energy. She sprang off her ass, and she recognised her husband in urging him to ask; she knows what to do. The type is striking as to how she comports herself. She wanted springs. She did not say, Give me a spring; but springs, and he designated the upper and nether.

A.N.W. Does what you have said explain why so much room is given to prayer in the epistle to the Ephesians?

J.T. Yes. The first is in regard to light: "Being enlightened in the eyes of your heart", to know what relates to God the Father -- "the hope of his calling", the "riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints" and "the surpassing greatness of his power" (chapter 1: 18 - 20). The second prayer relates to the Father's Spirit working in us, which is what we are considering now: "In order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God" (chapter 3: 18, 19).

A.A.T. To what do the lower springs refer?

J.T. I would connect them with Romans; the Spirit regulating and maintaining us here, in the sphere of responsibility. Romans 5:5 says, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". That would be the basis of the springs. Then in chapter 8 it is said, "That the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit" (verse 4). The first part of chapter 8 particularly treats of the Spirit, mentioned some thirteen times, running into the thought of being led by the Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" (verse 14). It would allude to the final stage of the wilderness. Instead of being led by the light of the cloud on the tabernacle, we have the springing well, which alludes to the Spirit, the power by which we enter into Canaan. The upper springs would be the Spirit as viewed in Ephesians. It is the Father's Spirit there. It strengthens us in the inner man.

A.B.P. Is there a parallel with Acts 19?

J.T. That is a connecting link with what is before us -- Paul's concern as beginning the work at Ephesus. He

came through the upper districts, and having found twelve men there, who evidently were there by divine appointment, he is especially concerned whether they had received the Holy Spirit when they had believed, putting them on their spiritual history. The point is that we should be maintained on the upper line. The lower line is Corinth, which corresponds somewhat to what we said about the Spirit in Romans -- the nether springs. Apollos was there, and Paul came in on the upper line, and raised this question of the Spirit with these twelve men at Ephesus. He referred to their history; whether they had received the Spirit when they had believed. This is a matter of prime importance to the subject in mind; that is, the assembly which was developed at Ephesus; developed on the heavenly line. It says in Ephesians 1, "In whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" (verse 13). They are taken account of as sealed, and the Spirit is the Earnest of the inheritance. The apostle refers to their history as having believed. He says, "In whom we have also obtained an inheritance, being marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will, that we should be to the praise of his glory who have pre-trusted in the Christ: in whom ye also have trusted, having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory", Ephesians 1:11 - 14. I think that is linked with Acts 19 and our present scripture. It is stressing what they came into in the gift of "the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance".

A.R. In Acts 19 Paul asked the twelve men as to the Spirit; in the scripture read in Joshua, Achsah does the asking.

J.T. That brings in the assembly; the feminine side is before us; how she acted and spoke. It is not that anyone had suggested springs to her. The apostle suggested the Spirit in the antitype. He raised that question at once, connecting it with their histories since they had believed, because we can have no part at all in this matter aside from the Spirit.

C.A.M. Would you say that the twelve at Ephesus had not followed the cloud? You said there came a time when the well took the place of the cloud.

J.T. Yes; it is the final part of the wilderness -- from Numbers 21. It is "as many as are led by the Spirit of God" after that, which Romans 8 contemplates. It is still a wilderness position, but it is by the Spirit. At Ephesus there were twelve, as if specially ordered by God in view of the great work that was to take place there; a complete administrative number, and hence Paul's question as to the Spirit. They said they had not heard whether He had come. So that they were defective as to current light. Apollos, in the previous chapter, was in a similar position, knowing only the baptism of John, but evidently he knew more than they did because he preached in power; he needed some adjustment, but not as much as they did.

C.A.M. Would you say that the cloud was moving, up to that part of the Acts, toward Ephesus?

J.T. Yes. The movement of the cloud is seen after Acts 7. That chapter is one great landmark, and then in chapters 11, 12 and 13, it is a question of bringing Paul in. It is then the change-over to his ministry, and these men at Ephesus were defective. Although they had light through John, they had not followed up that light. They should have found out that the Holy Spirit had come, but they had not heard. That was no excuse, because it was to be heard. From the very outset Peter announced the fact that, "having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33.

J.T.Jr. We have what is in Christ up there. According to Ephesians, things are in Him: "in whom we have redemption through his blood" (verse 7). It goes back to the initial thought of redemption and forgiveness of sins, but as being linked up with Christ in heaven.

J.T. I was thinking just today about the pattern that Moses received. God says, "See that thou make them according to their pattern, which hath been shewn to thee in the mountain", Exodus 25:40. So the idea of elevation enters into it. The full thought of Christ is reached as we apprehend Him in heaven; even as to our own transformation, it is according to His "body of glory". The full thought is there, and in resting in anything less than that, we are defective. So John says, "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2. "Even as he is, we also are in this world" (chapter 4: 17). It is the full thought that is to be kept in mind, and what have been our histories since we believed.

A.R. The apostle Paul stresses the idea that God has set Christ down at His own right hand in the heavenlies. We are to apprehend Christ there now.

J.T. Yes. Paul reached the position, because he says that he was caught up to the third heaven, that is, as far as the third heaven (see footnote to 2 Corinthians 12:2). That is the highest creature point, I should think.

J.H.E. How perfect Scripture is! The upper springs are mentioned first, and then the lower. We should be in the upper realm, but then the spring is available in the lower sphere to help us, too.

J.T. That is it. Apollos, we are told, was at Corinth, as if the lower position is maintained. If we do not maintain the lower, there will be a fall, and that is what happened at Ephesus. We will become unbalanced unless the lower position is maintained.

J.S. Should we go from Romans 8, spiritually, to Ephesians?

J.T. That is right. Colossians is a corrective link. But, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14, connects directly with Ephesians.

A.R. Paul says in Ephesians 1:22, "And gave him to be head over all things to the assembly". Is headship operating from Him as having sat down at the right hand in the heavenlies?

J.T. Just so; God having given Him to be Head over all things to the assembly. So that the position is above, clearly, and all is operating from that point of view in Ephesians.

C.A.M. Would the smiting of Kirjath-sepher suggest Christ's greatness in what He has accomplished?

J.T. It is an allusion to His military prowess; Kirjath-sepher is the city of the book; a city of literature.

J.S. Was it not at Ephesus that they burned the books?

J.T. That is the fact. It is a remarkable account of the work of God through Paul. There is no account like it -- the immense power there was. It is said, at that time, that napkins taken from Paul's body effected cures.

A.B.P. What would be the significance of the books, in a practical way, at this high point? It would be easier to understand them as a hindrance to us on a lower level.

J.T. It is worth considering. There are two cities mentioned in this chapter, related to each other: Kirjath-sepher, the city of the book, and Kirjath-sannah, the city of instruction. The idea of education enters into both. Such cities, in all times, have leading places in the world. What Othniel overcame would mean the overthrow of the world as it is built up. Education has one of the greatest places in it. Books, of course, go with that, but they are regarded by themselves; so the books were burned at Ephesus.

J.S. Knowledge puffeth up.

J.T. That is right; but it belongs to this position; it belongs to the Ephesian position. It is Joshua we are dealing with -- the heavenly position. It is the standpoint of christianity fully understood, because the vessel of Acts 10 came down from heaven. It did not start from the earth; it started from heaven, and man competes with that. That is competed with and overcome in man's idea of things, and that is what the present world is.

A.N.W. Is that why you have the stepping-stone of Colossians between Romans and Ephesians? Is not Colossians to concentrate headship in the Lord Himself outside the range of philosophy?

J.T. That is right Everything must come from the Head who is in heaven, for He is there, sitting at the right hand of God. He is made Head up there; given to be Head over all things to the assembly.

A.B.P. During the period of the so-called Reformation it was definitely of God that there should be many who were highly educated so that the structure of the truth might be unfolded accurately, and we get the benefit of that today. But would it be right to say that is hardly a necessity now that the truth has been opened up, in the ways of God?

J.T. Just so. The languages in which God had spoken needed to be understood thoroughly, and it was right there should be a research into the history of the Bible. That is certainly a history to be considered; the history of the Book of God. Men in those days were raised up and able to do that, and even later than that. But then, that is done, now. Of course, we need education in the ordinary sense, but the two cities taken by the men of faith in Joshua would mean that education as a worldly advantage has been overthrown in the minds of christians, and so, as we have just said, they burned the books at Ephesus -- a very large number of them too.