Pages 1 - 260 -- 'Notes of Readings and Addresses in U.S.A'. 1942 (Volume 159).

CHRIST'S KINGDOM NOT OF THIS WORLD (1)

John 18:33 - 37

J.T. Scripture abounds with intimations that the dispensation in which we are is heavenly, and one hopes we may be helped to a more concrete understanding of this qualification. The heavenly character of the dispensation is admitted theoretically amongst us, but whether it is understood is a question. Current public events give occasion to bring out the concreteness of the truth of the heavenly character of christianity. The confession of the Lord Jesus before Pilate, recorded in our chapter, which is peculiar to John, will help us as to the initial thought in the subject, the Lord Jesus saying, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought" (John 18:36). This statement of the Lord is the kernel of the whole matter. In other dispensations from the very outset, the sword was used. War meant war in the physical sense, and this character of warfare will be resumed when the Lord Jesus returns publicly. In the meanwhile, as far as christians are concerned, the sword is put into the sheath (John 18:11). "Our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies" (Ephesians 6:12). The Lord's words before Pilate are especially alluded to by the apostle Paul, "Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession" (1 Timothy 6:13).

The present time affords much opportunity to witness a good confession as to the character of the

dispensation, and many are availing themselves of it. God is ordering it, confessions are reaching the authorities as the Lord's confession reached Pilate. The Lord is pleased with the confessions that are being rendered, and the hope is that what may come before us may strengthen the position in that respect, especially that the idea of a good conscience towards God and before men may be clarified.

The Lord leads the way here, and in this first reading our remarks should bear on the phase of the subject in the passage read. Later we may be able to see the practical working out of the heavenly dispensation in our lives, as taught in Romans 12; later still in the truth of the heavenly calling in Ephesians; and the heavenly priesthood, entering into the service of God as shown in Hebrews: that in result we may have a clearer idea of the whole position, that it is really heavenly. Our contact with the earth is provisional in the sense that the assembly is of heaven; formed on the earth and used here for heavenly testimony at the moment, but received back into heaven as having spiritually come out of heaven. That is the general idea of what is in mind.

R.R.T. Is your thought that the matter of confession has to do with the kingdom of heaven? Our confession as to our allegiance among men is a great matter just now, but the allegiance to Christ made Lord in heaven is much greater.

J.T. Quite so. John's presentation of the matter is intelligible as entering into these last days, how the truth works out in remnant times. So that the chapter is a unique one, beginning with the Lord in the garden, not here called Gethsemane, because the idea of pressure is not the side of the truth presented in John. It is the Lord in liberty and power so that when He says, "I am he", His enemies "went away backward and fell to the ground" (verse 6). Throughout He is in liberty and

in peculiar power, which is applicable at the present time as to what is needed -- a knowledge of the Lord Jesus as the Son of God, who He is divinely; and liberty in relation to that. We have priesthood in this chapter under the enemy's power, in Annas and Caiaphas, and on the other hand Peter's denial of the Lord Jesus without any repentance attached to it. In John we have the character of the general position in the last days indicated in this chapter, and the Lord's confession coming in in these verses as the guide for the young men and for all of us at such a time.

D.R. What other dispensations do you refer to, and what would be the character of them with which you intend to contrast our dispensation?

J.T. Paul says, "these things happened as types of us" (1 Corinthians 10:6); and in verse 11, "all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come". That would mean that there is capability contemplated in the assembly to take up everything; it is, as it were, a clearing house for the principles of all the dispensations. The assembly in which the all-various wisdom of God is active is, viewed normally, equal to this. All these principles are seen worked out in the very best hands, first in the Lord Jesus Himself, and then in the assembly in which the Holy Spirit dwells. The Spirit guides us into all the truth so that we understand divine principles, wherever they are, or however expressed.

The antediluvian period involved great root principles and the Spirit has opened them up to us through certain ministries divinely provided. We may regard it as a dispensation. That period of long lives was more extended than ours, but is covered by only six chapters of the Bible; but what histories and principles they contain! These all were written for us. They enter into our own times, but yet had application at that time.

Then there is the idea of God's call, seen in Abraham, involving the great family of faith. There is no calling out of the antediluvian world, although there was suffering for the truth, calling on the name of Jehovah, separation and walk with God as apostasy set in. It is after the flood that the call comes in, when idolatry had gained a footing. Nothing is said about idolatry in the first world.

Exodus introduces the dispensation of law under Moses. It continued on to Christ; but features were added, each of which had in itself a dispensatory character: judges as set up of God; and particularly kingship as inaugurated in David, through whom the royal seed was established. All these dispensations are only intelligible in the assembly; in their full significance they awaited the presence of Christ on earth, and, redemption accomplished, the presence of the Holy Spirit here in the assembly. The principles involved could not otherwise be perfectly administered nor even fully understood; the prophets sought to understand the things they ministered, and it was revealed to them that it was to us they ministered them (1 Peter 1:10 - 13). The Psalms express the greatest spirituality and it is quite plain that in speaking of the principles of the earlier dispensations they had Christ in view.

D.R. You think then that God has in mind the assembly as the consummation of all the dispensations?

J.T. Yes, the divine thought is that, not only what comes out of heaven, but everything to be established in the millennium is to be made intelligible in the assembly.

J.L.F. This thought of witnessing a good confession enters into our own period and it also extends back to the dispensations which have gone before, does it not? Paul and Stephen are examples in the former, and

Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego in Old Testament times. You get a climax as to this in the passage before us -- "Christ Jesus who witnessed before Pontius Pilate the good confession".

J.T. Just so. We have it in a supreme way here, and it is taken up in the epistles for our learning. Perhaps before we enter fully into the verses read we should grasp the teaching of the chapter, that we may understand the conditions that occasioned the truth the Lord developed.

The garden into which the Lord and His disciples entered is noted, and Judas and his band came there. "Judas therefore, having got the band, and officers of the chief priests and Pharisees, comes there with lanterns and torches and weapons" (verse 3). That is, it is an apostate crowd coming back to attack the Lord with light, such as lanterns and torches; also with weapons. Then, "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that were coming upon him, went forth and said to them, Whom seek ye?" (verse 4). "Knowing all things". We are not to be in the dark as to these circumstances; whatever the enemy may be thinking of, the saints are to know. John says elsewhere, "ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things" (1 John 2:20). Then the Lord says, "Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus the Nazaraean. Jesus says to them, I am he. And Judas also, who delivered him up, stood with them. When therefore he said to them, I am he, they went away backward and fell to the ground" (verses 5, 6). So that there is triumph manifested in relation to the Person of Christ. As long as the Person of Christ is the basis of the position, then nothing can stand before it. This being attested, the Lord allows Himself to be bound and led away.

C.A.M. They were against the name of Jesus the Nazaraean, the despised Man. But what came out was that they were also against God.

J.T. That is it. The Lord accepts the lowly title. He says, "I am he", but then, a divine Person was there, God was there. He answered to the name, "Jesus the Nazaraean", but who He was expressed itself in power as He said, "I am he". "They went away backward and fell to the ground". 'He' is not in the original, so that His Person is expressed in 'I am'. "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that were coming upon him, went forth and said to them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus the Nazaraean. Jesus says to them, I am he". When He said to them "I am he, they went away backward and fell to the ground". That is the basis of the whole position: Jesus is I Am.

The will of God was that He should die. Peter uses the sword, but the Lord says to him, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?" That is the position, the will of God; whatever God orders is according to His will, and the responsibility of the believer is to stand by that; in connection with it is the divine presence and nothing can overcome it. The will of God must be accepted, even if it involves death, as we see in the Lord here, but the presence of God with us and the power that marks it settles all for the faithful believer.

A.D.S. What is the import of His asking of them again in verse 7, "Whom seek ye?"

J.T. Well, that is to bring out what was definitely in the minds of the betrayer and his band; so they said again, "Jesus the Nazaraean". Then "Jesus answered, I told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go away; that the word might be fulfilled which he spoke, As to those whom thou hast given me, I have not lost one of them". That is, the saints are being looked after in these terrible situations. The Lord is there, His Person is in evidence and the power

that causes them to go backward. But He adds, "If therefore ye seek me, let these go away". He is going into the grave by the will of God, but He takes care of the saints. They are all divinely looked after.

R.R.T. Would it be right to say that the opposition of the enemy in the various dispensations takes character from the vessel that God is using for the moment? That is, the opposition of the enemy here is centred against Christ as here in the flesh.

J.T. Yes; thus He challenges them: "Whom seek ye?" It is a question of the will of God, and hence those who are attacked are not evading anything that may come upon them in the way of suffering, for the will of God must stand. But the Lord shows here that He has power to deliver His servants. He allows His enemies to take Him, but says, "let these go away;" He takes care of His people. That is one of the greatest comforts.

C.H.H. Would what you are saying enter into Paul's account of the Lord's supper? He says, "the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up" (1 Corinthians 11:23). He uses the term "Lord" as well as "Jesus" -- the Lord, and yet Jesus, that very Person.

J.T. Quite so. He "took bread, and having given thanks broke it", verse 24. He is in the circle of the saints. It is in view of His going away and leaving something for their affections by which they should remember Him. Here He is taking care of the saints. "If therefore ye seek me, let these go away; that the word might be fulfilled which he spoke, As to those whom thou hast given me, I have not lost one of them".

J.L.F. The Lord jealously takes care of what should characterise the situation. On the one hand, divine power was there in Him, on the other hand He would not allow Peter's sword to falsify the position.

J.T. That is right; He healed the ear of the bondman of the high priest (Luke 22:51). In view of the

destructive and defiling conditions in which many of our brethren are today the Lord's word here, "I have not lost one of them", is most assuring. He also said, "a hair of your head shall in no wise perish" (Luke 21:18).

C.A.M. The number of officials, including officers of the chief priests who came with Judas, is remarkable.

J.T. I thought of that. How miserable the whole effort was, including their lanterns and torches! Compare them with Christ -- the light and power manifest in Him! How morally despicable was this band of Judas! With the betrayer were the representatives of the accepted current religion to arrest and crucify the Lord of glory! It is really an apostate band with their pretended lights, but the Lord exposes them, especially their impotence. But still He is not destroying them. Infinite power was there, but instead of using it against His enemies, He allows Himself to be taken, directing that they should let the disciples go away. Like the ark in the wilderness, He was really taking a three days' journey to find a resting-place for His own, (Numbers 10:33).

R.R.T. Does this passage also indicate the greatness of the Person? It says, "that the word might be fulfilled which he spoke". We have referred to the Lord fulfilling the prophetic word in Scripture, but here His own word takes that place.

J.T. Yes. The allusions to the fulfilment of Scripture in this gospel are striking; that nothing is left out. In John everything is according to plan, you might say, in spite of all that has happened, in spite of the darkening influences of the middle ages and what has come down to us today, everything is proceeding in our time according to divine ordering. "These things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, Not a bone of him shall be broken" (John 19:36). When the Scriptures are assailed by so-called critics, with their "lanterns and

torches and weapons", the Spirit of God shows in John that Scripture is true and that it cannot be broken (John 10:35); that what God is doing is according to what is written.

J.A.W. Referring to the lanterns and torches, do you have in mind the literature, secular and religious, which has expression in the world today, and which sometimes finds its place in the minds of the saints?

J.T. That is the idea. The Spirit of God is here speaking ironically of the boasted light of modern science as to the things of God. The leaders have torches and lanterns and weapons; with the weapons, they will persecute. The weapons go with the lanterns. The Lord says to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath". You are not to use such a weapon. Doing the will of God may involve persecution. The Lord here says, "The cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?" Judas and his band have their lanterns and torches and weapons to do harm to Him who is doing the will of God.

J.A.W. Would you say that truth is followed up in Paul before Agrippa when he says, "Whereupon, king Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision" (Acts 26:19). The light found its way into Paul's heart?

J.T. Yes. There was testimony to him in a two-fold way -- light from heaven and a voice from heaven; and both the light and the voice evidently increased in his mind as he progressed in the truth.

J.L.F. Would the fact that Judas stood with them be an effort to bolster up their position?

J.T. No doubt; he was there unrelentingly.

J.A.W. Thinking of our young men, if the lanterns and the torches are not effective in extinguishing this loyalty to Christ, the weapons may come into effect in putting some into prisons and concentration camps. Is that the idea?

J.T. Yes; the weapons attached to the lanterns and torches. Then following upon that, Peter's action in using the sword is to bring out what some christians are doing. "Simon Peter therefore, having a sword, drew it, and smote the bondman of the high priest and cut off his right ear; and the bondman's name was Malchus". So that we must not use the sword. How sad that a christian should cut off a man's right ear -- that by which he should hear the gospel! The Lord's remark to him settles the matter as to the use of the sword; the truth requires that we should not use it. He says, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?" That is the ground we take. It is a question of the will of God. Nothing happens without the will of God, and if we are attacked, it is for us to take the attitude of sufferers instead of using the sword. "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter. But in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us" (Romans 8:36, 37).

J.L.F. Has the cup here reference to the cross?

J.T. Yes. It is a question of the will of God. That is the point. The Father had given Jesus a cup to drink. He says, "Not as I will, but as thou wilt" (Matthew 26:39). Nothing happens without being in accord with the will of God, so that, if it entails suffering for us, we must accept it.

J.L.F. I was wondering how the thought of the cup here would link up with John's line?

J.T. It is suffering for the will of God. The crucifixion was in mind; the will of God required the death of Christ. But a triumphant character marks His death in chapters 18 and 19. Although the Sufferer, He is supreme throughout. Alas! human hatred was there, but its violent stroke only brought forth the blood and water from the side of Christ. There was there provided

for faith the means of the settlement of every moral issue which had arisen through the working of sin in men.

D.R. Would the Lord's remark to Peter here be the basis of maintaining faith and a good conscience today?

J.T. Yes. That is what the Lord is bringing out here. He is weaving the fabric of the dispensation in directing that the sword is to be sheathed. The Father's will is the supreme matter for us. If it entails persecution we suffer. "Bless those that curse you; pray for those who use you despitefully" (Luke 6:28).

J.A.W. Referring to the ear again: it is the medium through which truth enters into the mind. The saints of God, as coming under the authority of Christ, are to see that the light of the gospel should reach the ears of all men.

J.T. Luke says that the ear was healed, but it does not say that here. Things here are running on to the end just as they are. Peter's act, or the effect of it, is allowed to stand, and Peter does not get recovered here. The effect of adverse things is allowed to stand to the end.

J.A.W. That principle runs down to our day.

J.T. Well, it is the most solemn thing that certain things are allowed to stand. "Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still" (Revelation 22:11).

R.B. I suppose in the eyes of the world Peter's act would be an act of righteous belligerency, but in the presence of the Lord it is rebuked.

J.T. It is the will of God taking the place of the sword; and this implies that suffering is accepted instead of having recourse to vengeance. The young men say to the authorities, It is a question of the will of God. If it is the will of God that His people should now take the sword, they will do it, but then the will of

God does not allow it. The Lord Himself plainly intimates this in the chapter before us.

C.A.M. At the time of the Reformation the sword was used by some who in measure supported the truth, but they ignored the Lord's instruction in our chapter.

J.T. Yes. Christianity is developed in suffering, in persons accepting the will of God. The light, as God furnishes it by the Spirit, accompanies that.

R.R.T. Two statements of the Lord in this chapter connect beautifully: "The cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?" verse 11, and, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought" verse 36.

J.T. That is right. The Lord in directing Peter to put the sword into the sheath is saving him from discrediting the dispensation He was inaugurating.

R.R.T. Thus the Lord Himself becomes the example in this respect for the whole dispensation.

J.T. That is what I thought we might see in this chapter -- "the good confession" (1 Timothy 6:13).

A.D.S. Mohammedanism springs out of the use of the sword, does it not?

J.T. Yes; by military conquest it spread through the Near East to India, towards the West into Eastern Europe, and through North Africa up into Spain. What a great contrast to what we are considering!

A.D. S. In connection with the matter of confession, I was wondering if, for the sake of our younger brethren, we might not get some help out of Romans 10:8, 9, "the word of faith, which we preach: that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord". One had thought that confession was initial or elementary, but in the light in which you are presenting it, it would seem that it is something to be carried through. Am I right in that?

J.T. Yes, confession saves you, the confession with your mouth. The idea is to confess in the presence of

the enemy. God defends that, He defends the confessors.

J.A.W. It would appear that what you have just said in respect to the ear not being restored makes the present moment a very solemn one. The truth is out, and the present ministry which they have refused means cutting off really.

J.T. That is right. The judicial dealings on the part of God in Revelation bring that out, that if one goes on and on refusing the truth God may say in effect, The end for you has come, you are filthy and you will be filthy, (Revelation 22:11). It is a very solemn matter. Here it is opposition taking the form of apostasy in Judas and his band, and everything is just left as it is. But those who are real and faithful are going on with confession. The Lord is making clear the position, that His kingdom is not of this world. It must have been a wholly new thing to Pilate; doubtless he had never heard of a kingdom not of this world; but the Lord described His kingdom in this way. People today do not understand the Lord's people, why they cannot do as others. The answer is simple -- they belong to Christ's heavenly kingdom. They are not of this world as He is not of this world.

J.L.F. It was a matter in relation to which the Lord had to continually adjust the disciples, was it not? In one instance two of them wanted to call down fire from heaven to consume certain ones, (Luke 9:54).

J.T. Quite so. Then the following facts here are to be noted: Peter's denial of the Lord, and the high priesthood in Caiaphas, to whom Annas was father-in-law; and, in keeping with this gospel, the liberty and dignity which marks the Lord. There is also the brutal unfairness among those present who should have been the guardians of righteousness: "One of the officers who stood by gave a blow on the face to Jesus, saying, Answerest thou the high priest thus?" verse 22. And

not a word from the high priest as to this cruel action. He smites the Lord of glory. The Lord says, "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why smitest thou me?" verse 23. That is another principle: witness in relation to judicial procedure. The chapter contemplates that the high priesthood, though used by the devil now, had yet divine authority attached to it. Indeed Caiaphas had already prophesied, as we are told here, and that is another thing; it was an important truth directly relative to the Lord Jesus, that one man must die for the people. It was the time of one man dying for the people. How solemnly impressive is this group of circumstances!

C.A.M. It would be almost like Balaam's prophecy, would you say?

J.T. It is of that character. It is remarkable how things have turned around in modern times. A certain system long opposed to the truth is now contending for some features of it. In Europe one high up in the system made lately a striking statement -- that no blood is of any moral value but the blood of Christ. God would help even such a man contending for such a great truth. And so as to what John 18 presents, God could, a little while earlier, use a man to prophesy the truth, who is now condemning Christ to death.

C.A.M. No doubt some are suffering for Christ's sake in the so-called systems.

J.T. God has in some sense a testimony there. And there is in them what God owns as responsible; thus what the Lord Jesus said to the cleansed leper applies: "go, shew thyself to the priest, ... for a testimony to them" (Matthew 8:4).

J.A.W. But is it not true that many of the so-called preachers of today deny the divinity of Christ? In other words, they give "a blow on the face to Jesus".

J.T. They do indeed; but there are others who confess the truth of His Person.

P.H. What is the significance of the Catholic church bringing out a new revision of the Scriptures just lately and putting it into the hands of the people?

J.T. It bears on what we are remarking. I understand the New Testament only has been revised. But the general position remains unchanged and the judgment announced will not fail, so that Revelation 16:19 says, "And great Babylon was remembered before God to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath". For the moment other things are more prominent but the final judgment of "the great harlot" is certain.

To proceed with our chapter -- verses 28 - 32: "They lead therefore Jesus from Caiaphas to the praetorium, and it was early morn. And they entered not into the praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but eat the passover". They are carrying on religiously in spite of all these things. "Pilate therefore went out to them and said, What accusation do ye bring against this man? They answered and said to him, If this man were not an evildoer, we should not have delivered him up to thee. Pilate therefore said to them, Take him, ye, and judge him according to your law. The Jews therefore said to him, It is not permitted to us to put any one to death; that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled which he spoke, signifying what death he should die". This signifies that the word of Jesus comes into these circumstances; it is not a matter of chance, the word of Jesus must come to pass. It is a question of divine plan, not accidental at all. Then the Lord is in the presence of Pilate, and the fact comes out that Pilate abstractly is ready to do what is right; but he is influenced by the religious element. This indicates the uncertainty of the governing powers, and thus that our eyes must ever be on God. The best are apt to be governed by political motives. However, we must be thankful for any government that is ready to do right.

J.L.F. Would you say that according to John we cannot trust anything that is outward? Here is a disciple denying Jesus and another delivering Him up. Would you say that the high priest in his position, acting as he does, and the Roman governor walking forward and backward in uncertainty, testify that there is nothing outward to be trusted?

J.T. That is what the chapter presents. The next chapter records that Pilate scourged Jesus and brought Him out clothed in a purple robe put on Him in derision, saying, "I find in him no fault whatever", verse 4; so that government is seen broken down. Although Pilate had right thoughts at the beginning, he finally gave way to the Jews and delivered Jesus to be crucified. Thus nothing of man can be trusted. But a government may be trustworthy for a little while according to the will of God, and we can thank Him for this. The prayers of the saints have a great deal to do with it.

R.R.T. But on the other side and opposed to all that cannot be trusted, the word of Jesus is fulfilled. That is going through.

J.T. That should be steadily in view.

C.S.P. He bears witness to the truth.

J.T. The conversation in the verses we read between the Lord Jesus and Pilate brings this out. The character of this dispensation enters into it. The Lord says, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence". It is not an ordinary kingdom coming down from an old dispensation, but another order of things entirely, not of this world at all.

C.S.P. Would that be seen in His baptism? That is, He is baptised, and all men come to Him. A man cannot receive anything except it be given him from above.

J.T. Just so, that is right. The heavenly order of

things is coming into evidence in the 'good confession' of the Lord Jesus.

H.G. Do you think that the Lord had this in mind when He said in John 11:7 - 9, "Let us go into Judaea again"? The disciples said, "Rabbi, even but now the Jews sought to stone thee; and goest thou thither again?" The Lord says, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any one walk in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world".

J.T. Yes, and He is not afraid of the possibilities. Thomas says, "Let us also go, that we may die with Him", and of course martyrdom was in mind. But He went into Judaea nevertheless. He faces whatever the will of God requires. That is the great point now -- accept whatever the will of God requires.

D.R. Would you help us as to how we may be freed on the ground of a good conscience from taking the sword? There is the tendency on the part of some young men to make a choice of some certain service so that they might not have to use a sword.

J.T. The question of how that works out in Canada, for instance, as to the question of conscience, is very poor, I understand. In certain districts a labour camp is the only alternative for a man who wants to keep a good conscience before God and men. One may say, I will select a certain service and ask that I be put down to medical work; but there is no guarantee in that, that you will be saved from taking a sword. That is your own device. The only right alternative for faith is to accept what non-combatant work the government allocates to you, and leave it with God.

D.R. Making a selection which may involve the use of the sword is taking ourselves out of the path of God's will.

J.T. I think it is compromise and one may have self in view: perhaps wages or something that is more

respectable. If I am on that line I am sure to suffer. The simple acceptance of whatever God allows, providing I can keep a good conscience, is the thing. If it is a question of conscience, let it be conscience, not compromise, because conscience is the point -- "a good confession".

J.A.W. On that particular point, what lay before the three young men in the book of Daniel was the fiery furnace. They accepted that as the will of God for them.

J.T. It is very pronounced; they tell the king what they could not do. They were very definite in stating that.

W.T. Did not something go before that? There were other princes that had gone out of Judah beforehand.

J.T. These three and Daniel seem to be God's best. In a crisis God always has those who are equal to it. The idea of a man of God is one who represents Him in a crisis. These four mentioned in the book of Daniel, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, seem to be the divine provision for the situations that arose; and they shine.

J.A.W. Coming down to our day, would you say that Timothy was a man that stood out in a crisis? He was a young man addressed as a man of God.

J.T. That is the idea. He is about the only one called a man of God in the New Testament. He served in a broken state of things, as Elijah and Elisha did. They are outstanding men of God. In connection with them you get more references to men of God than anywhere else. It is a state of defection that specially brings out the need for men of God.

R.R.T. I think what you say about making a compromise is important. Was that not a reason for the failure of Peter here? "Peter was standing with them and warming himself", verse 18. That savours of

making a compromise with the enemy to make the path easier. It is bound to end in failure, is it not?

J.T. Yes; what comes out in the chapter is that John was known to the high priest, and through his influence Peter got into the palace. Then Peter is warming himself with the others. So that if I ask for a certain work or regiment that is a little more respectable, but perhaps brings me into worldly associations, I shall suffer. As sure as possible, if I make a compromise and take myself out of the hands of God, I get into circumstances that occasion damage. That is what happens here.

R.R.T. The Lord's word to Peter was, "The cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?" Peter had not profited by that word, had he?

J.T. He had not, and he is allowed to go through here as a type of a person who denies the Lord. He has to suffer to remind us that we must not resort to human influence to reach an end, because we take ourselves out of the hands of God and thus the enemy has an advantage.

H.G. What the Lord did in accepting the cup is the only standard for us.

Ques. Just why is Peter found with the sword in the company of Christ? Do you think that would be because of defection?

J.T. The answer is in Luke 22:35 - 38; but that passage shows that the disciples did not understand the Lord's mind. His remarks vividly told them that the protection His presence with them afforded was to cease, and hence that for a while at least they would have to see to themselves. The means the Lord expressed were to be understood by the principles He had taught and exemplified, but they would be obliged to exercise them without His aid. They regarded His words literally, hence Peter's error in smiting the high priest's bondman. Their warfare was

to be spiritual, as Paul teaches in Ephesians 6 and elsewhere.

J.A.W. Would your point be illustrated in 2 Kings 7 as to Samaria, where Elisha is? It is surrounded by the king of Syria's army; but the Syrians hear a noise of chariots, and a noise of horses, and the noise of a great host. They flee and the lepers find their camp with plenty of food, silver, gold and garments. That is divine help. It is not a sword, is it?

J.T. That is right. The inquiry is constantly made of the young brothers, What would you do if your mother were attacked by the enemy? But God is left out. The chapter before us shows the Lord Jesus being attacked and Peter uses the sword to defend Him, but the Lord told him to "put the sword into the sheath".

C.S.P. Is that the attitude of the Lord in this gospel, that He is receiving the things? He is not taking them into His hands.

J.T. Yes; He accepted the cup as expressing the will of the Father.

In considering Pilate we are out of the realm of the high priest and in the presence of the representative of the four monarchies, the representative of government. The Lord says to him, "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above" (John 19:11). Earlier it is said, "Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thy nation and the chief priests have delivered thee up to me: what hast thou done? Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence". God is stressing what the Lord says here. It should be kept before our eyes in the boldest type so that it should govern us at the present time.

M.D.F. Would you tell us why men in general did not understand the Lord?

J.T. John's gospel certainly makes it simple. He came as light into the world: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not" (John 1:4, 5). That is the connection with all that follows as to why men could not understand.

M.D.F. Did the Lord not indicate who would receive Him and who would hear Him?

J.T. He did. In the opening section of John's gospel you get the whole position. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". Not light for angels but for men. It was not a torch or a lantern, but the full blaze of light divine in a Man, a Man among men. Surely everybody sees this! John, however, points out that everyone does not see it. The light appears in darkness and the darkness apprehends it not. Then, "There was a man sent from God, his name John. He came for witness, that he might witness concerning the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but that he might witness concerning the light. The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man" (John 1:6 - 9). Light shines on him, but he is not letting it in. Then we are told, "He came to his own, and his own received him not". The Lord was in the world, made by Him, and the world did not know Him; "but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God". "But of God", that is the secret. It is the work of God, and nothing else will do; no matter how learned and energetic you may be, you must have the work of God underneath or you are dark and unfruitful.

C.H.H. Do all these circumstances you have been speaking of form a kind of area in which we bear witness of the truth? The final word here from the Lord is, "that I might bear witness to the truth".

J.T. That is the thought, we must stand by the truth. It shows the terrible darkness we have to do with. The Lord says, "I have been born for this, and for this I have come into the world, that I might bear witness to the truth", verse 37. Thus we too are here, and we too must stand by the truth. That is what comes out. Pilate says, "What is truth? And having said this he went out again to the Jews, and says to them, I find no fault whatever in him", verse 38. He did not wait for the answer. He wanted to know what was truth, but the truth was there before his eyes, and spoken in his ears.

What comes out in chapters 18 and 19 is the triumph of Christ on moral lines. He "delivered up" His spirit (John 19:30). It is a question of power, they do not take His life from Him. It is a question of the will of God, men can do nothing but what God wills. So if we stand by the truth, God will stand by us. That is the whole position.

D.R. So the Lord says, "I have been born for this", verse 37. That enters into believers' households. Their children are born in relation to the testimony.

J.T. Surely. You baptise your children and bring them up in the truth. They are said to be holy, (1 Corinthians 7:14).

R.R.T. Would you indicate for us just briefly what is implied in the Lord's words, "My kingdom"?

J.T. It would be a question of what it is in a moral sense now. His kingdom as the Son of David would be an earthly one, which will take form later, and then the sword will be used. We are told in Revelation 19:11 - 20 how He comes out of heaven Himself, riding upon a white horse. Many crowns are on His head; "And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen. ... And the beast was taken, and the false prophet that was with him, who wrought the signs before him by

which he deceived them that received the mark of the beast, and those that worship his image. Alive were both cast into the lake of fire which bums with brimstone". That is what is going to take place, but He is saying something different here. It is an order of things purely heavenly, and that is the difficulty; but we are to understand. We do not take the sword. We understand, but the average man does not understand. It is just a puzzle to him. He thinks we must be out of our minds. We must get to the basis of the position as the Lord Jesus unfolds it in the passage before us now, that He is going to die. There are the representatives of the four monarchies, and we have to tell them why we cannot do this and that; and pray to God that they may recognise our consciences.

R.R.T. Then the path for us is to walk in the light of what is involved in "My kingdom" in contrast to all the kingdoms of the world.

J.T. Yes. It will work out in that way. It is His kingdom, which, as the Lord says here, is not of this world. It is a real kingdom, nevertheless, taking character from Himself in His present circumstances: that is, rejected by this world, put to death and not resisting; nor did His servants fight on His behalf.

C.H.H. John connects the kingdom in Revelation with tribulation and patience.

C.S.P. Do we not get the thought of power in connection with the kingdom, sufficient to meet the whole situation?

J.T. We do, but it is grace reigning, as Romans teaches. There is infinite power, that is, the Holy Spirit, but it is exercised in grace -- for the salvation of men, not for their destruction. Men need to be instructed as to it. It adapts itself to the gospel period. It is not the time of vengeance. So that what has been referred to as to patience is helpful: "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and

patience, in Jesus" (Revelation 1:9). The footnote says the words 'kingdom', 'tribulation', 'patience', are brought together by one article. The preposition 'in' implies power in the position. This statement of John illustrates what the Lord means by 'my kingdom' at the present time. It is of Himself, marked by tribulation and patience. He is now at the right hand of God, all power given to Him, but His servants and saints in His kingdom down here are marked by the features that marked Him as rejected and crucified in this world. He did not use the sword, nor do they. It is the time of 'patient endurance'.

A.D.S. Would you say that, while John presents the truth of the Son of God, the principle of 'my kingdom' is involved in what Matthew presents in regard to the transfiguration? The Lord says, "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (Matthew 16:28).

J.T. That refers to coming glory, but the appearance of it was intended to affect the disciples in view of their testimony and ministry; thus it bears on what is before us. The time for the kingdom of the Son of man had come, but instead of entering into it publicly, He was rejected and crucified. This agrees with the Lord's statement to Pilate, "If my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence". There is a new order of things. Paul's epistles bring out the full thought, but the Lord is showing here briefly that His kingdom was of a wholly new order. Pilate represented government and hence the Lord thus spoke to him. He did not say this to the high priest. The Jewish high priesthood had some authority as the Lord appeared before it, but that has come to an end; and its successors in our day have no authority over the people of God. We are to come out

from among them. But we recognise governments. Therefore the Lord explains to Pilate the new position into which He was entering, and of which christianity is the fulness.

C.H.H. As to your remark that Timothy was to lay hold of eternal life, we are reminded that eternal life was greatly emphasised among us some years ago.

J.T. Just so. In its present realisation the circle of the saints is involved. This implies a living state of things. The understanding of these great matters depends largely on our possession of them in some measure. In christianity we have the blessings offered in the gospel, and as having them the Spirit enables us to understand them.

J.L.F. The things themselves being there help the authorities to understand the statements that are being made.

J.T. These verses tell us of the conversation between the Lord Jesus and Pilate, Pilate being thus owned of heaven. The governments of today have the same place, and therefore we have to do with them; we pray for them. We do not pray for the priesthoods of human religion, but we pray for the authorities. The Lord is here telling Pilate of the new form the kingdom was taking, and hence we as His followers should have liberty to testify of it in our day to the authorities as they inquire from us.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM NOT OF THIS WORLD (2)

Romans 12:9 - 21; Romans 13:1 - 10; Romans 16:25 - 27

J.T. Reverting to John 18, the Lord, as we noted this morning, asserted that His kingdom is not of this world. He said, "If my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought". That is, there would be combat as of old, as in David's day, and there will be such combat again, according to Revelation, in view of the establishment of Christ's earthly kingdom. What He alludes to in 'my kingdom' has to be understood from His own service, and that of His apostles; and the precepts of it would come from Himself.

It is thought that Romans should be taken up to pursue this thought, that we may learn what is becoming to Christ's kingdom, it being not of this world. Similar instructions and exhortations to those in Romans are found in Matthew and Luke. In stressing the Lord's authority as over against the authority of the world -- what was said 'to the ancients' -- the simile in the end of Matthew 7 of a man who hears the Lord's words and does them is of great practical importance. The Lord likens him to one who; built his house on a rock, which stood in spite of adverse elements. It would be instruction especially for the Jewish remnant. But Romans contemplates an upward trend, beginning with basic conditions here below, unfolded through the great servant of the dispensation, the apostle Paul. Contemplating the mystery as seen in the last passage read, the gospel is unfolded in the epistle up to the end of chapter 8 in a most striking manner, finishing with the triumph that belongs to those who receive the gospel as divinely presented. It begins in verse 35, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? According as it is

written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter. But in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:35 - 39).

That is victory that accrues from the gospel; God known in love. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, and who shall separate us from the love of Christ? The position is immutable. And then we have three chapters which account for the promises made to God's ancient people. By this section we are taught that the gentiles as a testimony on the earth shall be set aside and all Israel shall be saved and set up here as a nation. Then in chapter 12 the apostle resumes his direct instruction to christians, and the principles intended to govern them are plainly stated. The kingdom the Lord alludes to in John 18 is worked out in the state of those who have part in the fruit of the gospel. The gospels of Matthew and Luke link on with the Jewish state of things as it then was, the remnant on right principles, in view of their part in the assembly; but Paul starts in this book, which is the great gospel epistle, in view of the mystery mentioned in the last paragraph. So that we have an up line in this epistle which is pursued in later ministry, particularly in Colossians and Ephesians, all tending to bring out the heavenly condition and setting of the present dispensation.

R.R.T. The connection between what you are saying and what we had this morning would link Romans 8:36 with John 18:11: "According as it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter;"

and, "Jesus therefore said to Peter, Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?" Would that be the working out in us of what is seen in its perfection in the Lord in John 18?

J.T. That is what the Lord has in mind; we are to be conformed to what He was Himself here. He would set Peter right as to the sword -- it should be put into its sheath. He does not say, Destroy it. The time will come when all military implements will be destroyed; but the Lord did not direct Peter to destroy the sword, but to put it into its sheath, because it will be used again in regard to the earth. In the meantime christians come into something not known before, hid in God, according to the end of the epistle to the Romans.

D.R. Is that the difference between the kingdom now -- the kingdom in mystery -- and the kingdom existing outwardly and dispensationally in a coming day, when the sword will again be used as alluded to this morning?

J.T. That is what I understand. The Lord said, 'my kingdom', not David's kingdom. But later He shall have "the throne of David his father; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages" (Luke 1:32, 33).

D.R. So the statement that "The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come" (Revelation 11:15) implies that war will be resumed.

J.T. Quite so. It is Christ's kingdom as generally presented in prophetic scriptures. It fits in down here; but the Lord said to Pilate, "my kingdom", and "my servants;" it is largely a question now of attachment to Christ, and of being governed, not only by His commandments, but by His ways. In truth you can hardly make it intelligible to men, and that in itself involves suffering. That is what Romans 8:36 provides for. "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long". It is a

question of love for Christ. "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?" That, I think, we might connect with "my kingdom" and "my servants" in John 18. The characteristic believer is devoted to Him and on His side as to what He says and what He does; to him Christ is "everything, and in all" (Colossians 3:11).

D.R. That helps as to the present working out of Christ's kingdom, involving suffering and reproach, with glory resting upon it.

J.T. It is a question of what works out from heaven. We may say of any kingdom that it is a question of what develops naturally. Christ's kingdom works according to His present circumstances. In His most trusted servant He brings it out peculiarly. All the apostolic epistles work out this great thought of His kingdom, but the Lord speaks of Paul as "an elect vessel unto me", and I think the trend of Paul's ministry as to Christ's kingdom is in accord with John 18.

J.A.W. Is one right in thinking that what works out in "my kingdom" is what you get defined as the kingdom of God? "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17).

J.T. Yes. It includes the features of the kingdom of God, the kingdom of the Son of man, etc. I think the moral power lies in our attachment to Christ, and in following up what He is and what He says.

A.D.S. The book of Acts closes with the statement that the apostle "remained two whole years in his own hired lodging, and received all who came to him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching the things concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, with all freedom unhinderedly" (Acts 28:31).

J.T. Well, that is a formal declaration of the kingdom for public testimony. He preached the kingdom of God. It is what God is morally. The kingdom of God stands related to the Holy Spirit down here. What

we are dealing with includes all that, but we are considering Christ's kingdom, which for the saints involves attachment and devotedness to Him in the period of His rejection. It works out in loyalty and correspondence to Him. Romans 8 brings out the love of Christ. It enters into what Paul is speaking of; but it is on the line of suffering, running into the thought of the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. "It is Christ who has died, but rather has been also raised up; who is also at the right hand of God; who also intercedes for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? According as it is written, For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter. But in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us" (Romans 8:34 - 37). So the position is invulnerable.

Then we have the matter of the promises to Israel, which is a deposit among those classified in chapter 8 as the subjects of the love of Christ. Romans 9, 10 and 11 are a sort of trust -- His earthly people held in the affections of those who love Christ. So that the whole testimony of God is carried down with us, as sharers of this personal love of Christ, and of the love of God in Christ, from which nothing can separate us. It is a question whether we can take in the whole scope of the testimony and carry it down. This parenthesis in the epistle is in full keeping with what is worked out in us in a practical way in relation to the gospel. Chapter 12 resumes this subject.

A.D.S. You say the position in invulnerable?

J.T. Quite so. It cannot be overcome; therefore things can be entrusted to us.

C.H.H. There is a contrast in Psalm 44, from which the quotation in verse 36 is made: the psalmist speaks of pushing down the adversaries of Israel, but

we are to accept persecution, and to become more than conquerors through Him who has loved us; it is the character of this dispensation in contrast to that of the old.

J.T. Yes, we are fixed in an invulnerable position in chapter 8. It is a question of the love of God and the love of Christ, and instructions as to a state in us working out to the mystery as in chapter 16, with an upward or heavenly trend.

R.R.T. In 2 Samuel 23 we have in David a contrast to Christ as seen in John 18. In the former the mighty men used the sword, being attached to David; but now there is attachment to Christ and His kingdom, and the sword is not to be used; this feature represents Christ in suffering.

J.T. That is the idea. "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long". The Lord's followers have no swords; it is a question of accepting the will of God and whatever it involves.

R.R.T. His servants take character from the King.

J.T. Quite so. I would like the brethren to grasp the position of those three chapters, because they refer to earlier testimonies that are to be carried down with us, held as it were in abeyance, not put into a pigeon-hole, but held in love. So that Paul says, "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, that I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart, for I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh; who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises; whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen" (Romans 9:1 - 5).

This passage shows how this testimony of God is

kept in love. Paul goes so far as to say he had wished to be a curse from Christ for those who once had it and will have it again -- the Jews.

C.A.M. Would you say that the doxology at the end of the three chapters would show that they form part of "all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge" that are put into that great depository at the close of the epistle?

J.T. Yes. The apostle, you can see, advances in a worshipful spirit as he proceeds with this great subject of the promises to the fathers.

J.A.W. Is it the thought that when the Lord was here and was rejected by His own, His kingdom was rejected too; but that now His kingdom is finding a practical expression in the hearts, minds and lives of the saints who form the assembly; and that what comes out in the three chapters you refer to is cherished in the assembly now?

J.T. That is the truth exactly. So that we come out in the character of Christ as sufferers, that which marked Him from the outset. Nothing is lost sight of; all is in keeping with the light of the kingdom of Christ, according to what He said to Pilate, "my kingdom is not of this world". It is a new thing altogether; the natural mind of man does not grasp it, but it is the character and qualities of Christ worked out in those that are true to Him as formed in the light of the gospel.

J.A.W. Is that why we have such an extended list of worthies in chapter 16, persons in whom those features were being demonstrated? "In the Lord", and "in Christ", are said of several.

J.T. The apostle does not mention specifically every saint at Rome. There was evidently a large number, but he mentions about twenty. They represent the community that he had in mind; they are to be saluted.

A.D.S. You remarked that all the dispensations have come down to us. Will you say a little more about that?

J.T. It is in 1 Corinthians 10:11, "Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come". "For our admonition" -- that fits in with what is before us in Romans 12 and 13; quality in us is in mind, the saints involving trustworthiness, those who hold and cherish what is of God.

J.A.W. I understood you to say that the doxology at the end of chapter 11 suggests that nothing of God is lost, that all is treasured in the assembly now.

J.T. Well, that would imply the last paragraph in the book -- which treats of the mystery. Chapter 12 resumes the instruction directly for christians. It is to develop quality in us, fitting us for Christ's kingdom. Chapter 12 works out the qualities of Christ in us, so that "my kingdom", as He calls it, is seen in its features. We begin with love, verse 9, which I think is appropriate. "Let love be unfeigned". In Romans 13:10 we have "love therefore is the whole law;" so that love is the great basic thought. From this point we may be able to touch the mystery.

C.S.P. So the kingdom now is the kingdom of the Son of His love?

J.T. That is a touching designation of it. By it you are directed to the book of Proverbs, where you get subject matter for contemplation for your whole life. Solomon spoke 3,000 proverbs; we have about 300, but they are sufficient to give us an inlet into wisdom as known in Christ, so that we should become wisdom's children.

C.A.M. Do you think that love has such a great place because all returns to God? That would be the suitable result of all these wonderful ways.

J.T. "For of him, and through him, and for him

are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen" (Romans 11:36).

D.R. Is the Father or God in mind here?

J.T. It is God. The verses we have before us give the working out of love in the most practical way.

J.S.C. When the kingdom is delivered up to God it is still the same kingdom?

J.T. You are alluding to 1 Corinthians 15:24 - 28, "Then the end, when he gives up the kingdom to him who is God and Father; when he shall have annulled all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that is annulled is death. For he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says that all things are put in subjection, it is evident that it is except him who put all things in subjection to him. But when all things shall have been brought into subjection to him, then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all". The divine kingdom has various phases, as we have been noting: this is what it is at "the end". There will, no doubt, be certain eliminations as of features which had a provisional character; we have in the passage quoted the abiding kingdom, what subsists in the eternal state of things. What the Lord calls "my kingdom" will, I suppose, merge in this. The Son uses the kingdom to subdue everything to Himself; then He delivers it up "to him who is God and Father". The Son Himself is placed in subjection. All is perfect and yet the principle of kingdom remains -- "that God may be all in all".

C.H.H. The apostle makes a distinction between "love" and "brotherly love", verses 9, 10. Peter does the same: "in brotherly love love" (2 Peter 1:7).

J.T. That would save us from personal preferences. Love is of God; brotherly love is the form it takes

among brethren, but there is what checks it so that we should not love certain persons unduly. You are to have brotherly love, but have love in it.

R.B. Reproach and suffering would be marks that identify with the testimony.

J.T. "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long". You can see what it is for sheep to be herded in a market or a slaughter-house, about to be killed -- that is the figure. The Lord "was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and was as a sheep dumb before her shearers, and he opened not his mouth" (Isaiah 53:7). That is the position; thus we do not take the sword and defend ourselves but take up the idea of suffering in the path of the will of God.

C.S.P. Would that come out with the little maid in 2 Kings 5? Naaman was a conqueror, but she was more than a conqueror.

J.T. Yes, she was more than a conqueror because she, as a captive, overcame resentment of her captor; she was possessed of evangelical sentiment toward Naaman. There is deep feeling in the wish, "Would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!" (2 Kings 5:3).

C.A.M. There was an impression made upon the Ethiopian eunuch through reading Isaiah 53. It must have impressed him that there is something greater than war with the sword. His baptism was in the light of Christ's suffering as presented by Isaiah; and, no doubt, he would work this out in returning; the sufferings of Christ would remain before him.

J.T. He went away rejoicing; he was left, Philip being caught away by the Spirit; and the eunuch went on his way rejoicing. What happened when he went back to Ethiopia we are not told, but you would expect that christianity would be represented there, for Christ's life was taken from the earth -- that is what was presented to him. That is the basis really of the life of the saints

of the heavenly kingdom of which the Lord speaks.

A.D.S. In Isaiah 53:7 it says, "He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and was as a sheep dumb before her shearers, and he opened not his mouth". In Acts 8:32, when Philip comes to the eunuch the scripture which he read was, "He was led as a sheep to slaughter, and as a lamb is dumb in presence of him that shears him, thus he opens not his mouth". There is a difference in the wording.

J.T. It is because the quotation is from the Septuagint; but it conveys the sense of the truth. The quotations in the New Testament are generally from that version.

C.H.H. In a practical way do not these principles come into our circumstances constantly? For instance, we may be defrauded; it is not a question of the sword, but in our circumstances would it not be right to accept the loss instead of contending?

J.T. That is the spirit of the truth which we are considering now. We shall see how the Spirit of God goes into detail, and it begins with love. "Let love be unfeigned; abhorring evil; cleaving to good: as to brotherly love, kindly affectioned towards one another: as to honour, each taking the lead in paying it to the other: as to diligent zealousness, not slothful; in spirit fervent; serving the Lord. As regards hope, rejoicing: as regards tribulation, enduring: as regards prayer, persevering: distributing to the necessities of the saints; given to hospitality. Bless them that persecute you; bless, and curse not. Rejoice with those that rejoice, weep with those that weep. Have the same respect one for another, not minding high things, but going along with the lowly; be not wise in your own eyes: recompensing to no one evil for evil: providing things honest before all men: if possible, as far as depends on you, living in peace with all men; not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to wrath; for it is written,

Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. If therefore thine enemy should hunger, feed him; if he should thirst, give him drink; for, so doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. Be not overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:9 - 21).

These verses represent the truth or law governing Christ's kingdom. It does not fit in at all with what the nations have to do, as the next chapter shows. They must have swords and other military weapons, but the kingdom in which we are precludes that altogether. "If thine enemy ... thirst, give him drink". The real test for us is the working out of this in present conditions, because it seems to most to be foolish and this in itself is reproach. But we have to accept it; to be truly His disciples we must follow what the Lord speaks of as His kingdom, what He is working out. It is a provisional kingdom that will come to an end as the assembly is translated, but in the meantime it is carried out and worked out in suffering. This is not intelligible to the natural mind, and this fact in itself causes persecution.

R.R.T. Looking at these features that you are speaking of as principles of "my kingdom", we come to understand in a better way what the Lord means in saying, "My kingdom is not of this world". They are not features which pertain to any kingdom of this world.

J.T. So that as you come before the tribunals with this in your heart you are governed by another thing altogether from what men are going on with. We are foolish in their eyes, and we have to depend on God to enable us to bear the reproach and to make ourselves commendable to all.

W.F. Paul's ministry in Corinth sets out the same principles that are seen here. He says, "Why do ye not rather suffer wrong? why are ye not rather defrauded?" (1 Corinthians 6:7).

J.L.F. So that the principles that belong to the

Lord's kingdom would affect us in relation to one another as brethren, in relation to all men, and in relation to our enemies.

J.T. With that in your heart when you go before the tribunals, and they say you must have a sword at least for an emergency -- you say, No, and they cannot understand it. It is a hard thing to be misunderstood and ridiculed publicly, but that attaches to the position. This is morally the greatest thing in the universe, and it is being worked out in the saints now. Are we great enough to take it on?

P.H. So that generally sheep have no horns.

J.T. That involves the principle. Sheep are characteristically passive.

H.G. Thus they represent the kingdom of Christ as He witnessed before Pilate; He was there the exemplification of these features, and He demonstrates this truth in His people now -- is that what we are to understand?

J.T. That is exactly the point.

The next thing in this section of Romans is that the ruling powers represented in Pilate are brought in again in chapter 13. "Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above him", verse 1. Pilate is brought in again to show how the government of the world is recognised by christians as it was by Christ. He said to Pilate, "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not give to thee from above" (John 19:11). Therefore the Lord submitted to him, and now we should submit to the authorities that are above us. We take a lowly place, they are above us. But this of course implies, as said elsewhere, that God is above them, and hence that we must obey Him in all circumstances.

J.A.W. They are above us in so far as they do not interfere with the rights of Christ over us. What I had in mind was that the government says, You are a

citizen, then you must take a sword. But you say, I cannot, because I am under a higher authority, under the lordship of Christ.

J.T. Well, that is what you have in your heart. You can answer in a very seemly way, as the Lord did. You recognise them in their own department; they are not mere politicians, they are set up by God. You can tell them, I pray for you, but I have something else, the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is not of this world, and I belong to that. It is almost impossible to get an unconverted man to grasp it. Therefore, you are ridiculed; he may be a 'gentleman', and would not say much to you, but that is what is in his mind -- that you are to be pitied, as foolish. That is the suffering side; and of course it may extend to severe treatment.

H.G. What bearing has the word of Paul to the Colossians that Christ is Head of all principality and authority?

J.T. That belongs to the mystery seen in Colossians and Ephesians. That is going to come out presently. Meantime He is on His Father's throne; He is not on His own throne yet. It is a provisional state of things, it is only for a time. The Lord is on the Father's throne instead of His own. His operations are in connection with the assembly and the gospel. The Father governs the universe. He "is over all, and through all, and in us all" (Ephesians 4:6).

H.G. So that the light governing the present situation is what we are considering this afternoon?

J.T. Yes; it is the suffering side; "we are put to death all the day long". When Christ takes up His rights in government His disciples will not be killed all the day long.

R.R.T. What the Lord said to Pilate governs the present position: "Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above".

J.T. That is enlarged for us in Romans 13. So that

the word is, "Let every soul be subject to the authorities". Christians belong to heaven; but in the government of God we are down here, as Jesus was down here doing the will of God. And He said to His disciples, "I am in the midst of you as the one that serves" (Luke 22:27). Although He was above all, He took a bondman's form, taking His place in the likeness of men. He humbled Himself and He suffered. But when He comes again He will have crowns on His head, and be sitting on a white horse; and He will be "clothed with a garment dipped in blood" (Revelation 19:13). "And the armies which are in the heaven followed him upon white horses, clad in white, pure, fine linen".

J.A.W. In taking a stand for Christ now in the manner in which you have been indicating, the authorities are for you: "For rulers are not a terror to a good work, but to an evil one", verse 3. You can count on the authorities to support you in the stand you take.

J.T. Yes; the government being ordained of God, "is God's minister to thee for good", verse 4. It is remarkable that Pilate at the outset was favourable to Christ. The government of this country is favourable to the saints; that surely is of God, and we thank Him for it.

C.A.M. Paul, according to Acts 26, stood before Festus and Agrippa; hard things were said to him, but he answered in meekness and had liberty to present the gospel, rendering a powerful testimony.

J.T. Quite so. He was what he wished them to be. He said, "I would to God, both in little and in much, that not only thou, but all who have heard me this day, should become such as I also am, except these bonds" (Acts 26:29).

J.L.F. Peter connects the will of God with the believer putting "to silence the ignorance of senseless

men" (1 Peter 2:15), meeting conditions in such a way that an opposer is put to silence.

J.T. Yes; the passage treats of subjection to divinely ordained authorities, 1 Peter 2:13 - 15. The present governing system is another order of things from that with which christians are connected, but nevertheless it is, so to speak, a department of God. It is a provisional state of things for our sakes. It is a minister to us for good, so that we are thankful for the policeman on the street and for the jail, because they suppress evil. The assembly could hardly exist without the outward order and protection which, under God, the government affords.

A.D.S. There is a footnote to Romans 13:1 in the New Translation: "'Let every soul subject itself:' it is reflexive; ... 'sets himself in opposition', verse 2, is in direct contrast". In the scripture referred to by our brother, Peter says, "Be in subjection, therefore, to every human institution for the Lord's sake". What is the distinction between authorities which are above us and human institutions?

J.T. They convey the same general idea; trade unionism would not be included. It is a question of what is provisionally owned of God, whatever human institution is in this sense owned of God. I think that is what is meant, because you might have the worst things under the head of an institution. But government is of God. 'Be subject', as we have noted, is reflexive. And the word 'soul' would suggest that you are feeling in the thing, you respect the authority. You say, God put it there for my benefit; you are not resentful of it.

A.D.S. Peter says, "for the Lord's sake".

J.T. In Romans you have, "on account of conscience", verse 5. It is a good word for the present time. Verse 5 indicates that, if you are not subject, your conscience will be bad; your conscience demands

subjection, and therefore you cannot at all support a person who says, I would not do anything for the government. Conscience requires that you do all you can for the government.

J.A.W. Do you not find that confirmed in the apostle's further word, "Dost thou desire then not to be afraid of the authority? practise what is good, and thou shalt have praise from it; for it is God's minister to thee for good"? So that those in the services, and all of us, should keep this before us: "practise what is good".

J.T. Yes. We have to take this up somewhat abstractly, because in the working out of government there are many very bad things; so that it is the abstract idea of government that is in mind, and which Pilate represents. Left to himself he would have released the Lord, but as influenced by the Jews he scourged the Lord. The point largely for us is to keep the authorities doing right, and hence we pray for them. God would help them to do right.

C.H.H. Would you feel free to form a judgment of the governments and to pray consistently in line with the judgment you form of those governments?

J.T. Just so. The abstract thought of government was in God's mind in taking up the gentile monarchies as seen in Daniel, and Nebuchadnezzar was brought to it through severe discipline. This has occurred, no doubt, in many cases. Pilate illustrates how God can act in this respect. Zechariah 6:5 presents the four monarchies in the abstract sense. There they are called "the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth".

J.L.F. In our chapter it is said, "For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God" (Romans 13:1). That is in effect what the Lord said to Pilate.

J.T. Therefore we see that what is in mind as to

government in this chapter is what is ordained of God. It is not trade unionism or institutions like that that would harm and even murder people; it is what God institutes that we are to submit to.

C.H.H. God may remove certain governments.

J.T. Just so; you see many examples of that in Scripture, also examples of God influencing rulers to favour His people. Our prayer meetings enter into all this -- that the authorities might be favourable towards God's people; we pray and it comes to pass. In 1 Timothy 2:1 - 4 the apostle says, "I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity; for this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God, who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth".

C.H.H. In the scripture in 1 Timothy, "all men" are mentioned first.

J.T. Quite so; it is a very important matter to keep on praying for them, because otherwise we may suffer; we must, therefore, keep on praying for the authorities. That is the general thought, and then for kings and those in dignity -- "that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity". All this instruction in Romans 13 ends with love in verse 10; and it may be linked with the mystery in the end of the epistle: "Now to him that is able to establish you, according to my glad tidings and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, as to which silence has been kept in the times of the ages, but which has now been made manifest, and by prophetic scriptures, according to commandment of the eternal God, made known for obedience of faith to all the nations -- the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Romans 16:25 - 27).

The truth in Romans works up to this paragraph. It

is to prepare us for the teaching of the Colossian and Ephesian epistles. Thus, as already remarked, Romans has an upward trend, leading us in principle and in spirit outside of this world altogether. Those saluted by the apostle, mentioned in chapter 16, would be saints who appreciated the truth and walked in it.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM NOT OF THIS WORLD (3)

Acts 2:42 - 47; Nehemiah 5

J.T. Our subject is the present dispensation as compared with other dispensations; it was proposed in order to bring out that christianity is a heavenly dispensation. This is accentuated in these last days, so that the end should be as the beginning. We looked at John 18 yesterday morning, the conversation between our Lord and Pilate, in which the Lord asserts that His kingdom is not of this world.

We considered the chapter generally and it became clear that His kingdom takes character from Himself. It is not a question of what He inherited from David, but what comes out from Himself; it is not of this world and the sword is particularly forbidden in the chapter, not abolished finally, but put back into its sheath, implying that it may be required again, but not in this dispensation. So our position is peculiar and involves reproach. The natural mind is unable to enter into it, and therefore persecution is bound to attach to us as we are faithful to the character of the time; thus our attitude is a suffering one, accepting the will of God, and stressing that it must have the first place. The Lord says to Peter, "The cup which my Father has given me, shall I not drink it?"

In the afternoon we looked at the epistle to the Romans, chapters 12 and 13 particularly, but considered a little the general scope of the epistle as setting forth the gospel, and that believers according to chapters 12 and 13 take on the character of Christ in their relations to one another and towards all, especially those in authority. The powers that be correspond to Pilate; the Lord had to say to him, and we have to do with the powers that exist at the present time. We are instructed in Romans how to comport

ourselves in relation to them, as the Lord did in relation to Pilate.

It is thought now that we should look at Luke's presentation of the truth as bringing out the heavenly side of it, the example being seen in the section in Acts 2 that we read. It is a beautiful product of the truth seen in the announcement of the gospel through Peter. It is Luke's line of service, bringing out a state of things that the Lord recognises as suitable to Him. Therefore He adds all that were to be saved to what was there, a company outside of the course of this world and characterised by a new spirit and new principles.

R.R.T. So that we have here presented in the Acts, really in effect, the product of the Lord's ministry, the witness of the good confession before Pontius Pilate, where He speaks about "my kingdom". Now as the fruit of that and the coming down of the Holy Spirit, we have coming to light in the Acts this heavenly company, united to a King in heaven.

J.T. That is what is mind, but "my kingdom", as the Lord calls it, would be worked out from heaven. It is not called the kingdom of heaven here; we are viewing it from the standpoint of the Lord's own remark; the kingdom of God is involved, but it is a question of "my kingdom" and "my servants". They were at Jerusalem and this is the product of that; there is no sword in the physical sense. Peter himself is the servant who serves, and he had learned from the Lord that no one is to take the sword in the literal sense. It is a question of the Spirit, the power that came in from heaven. What came in was powerful, although it was in the form of breathing; there was "a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing, and filled all the house where they were sitting". The Holy Spirit was coming in. It is not stated that He was breathing into the disciples, but "there appeared to them parted

tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them". It is a question of the public position and the power by which it is maintained, the Spirit of God.

A.D.S. You said in the résumé of what we had yesterday that the natural mind cannot apprehend, it does not understand the position. Would you say a little more about that?

J.T. Well, it does not; it receives not the things of God, it does not understand them at all. Paul tells us that they are spiritually discerned. The natural mind is shut out, it is not capacitated to take them in. It retains its own importance, however, and that involves suffering on the part of those who are heavenly. We are not understood, but the superiority and wealth flowing from the indwelling Spirit are there.

D.R. Do you think God might give conviction to those who represent the powers that be, although they do not understand the position?

J.T. He does. Acts brings out how persons in authority are affected; the person to whom the treatise is addressed may have been one of those, "most excellent Theophilus". The allusion would be to one in dignity. And we have several others of the great ones of this world who came within the range of the testimony and were affected, such as the eunuch, the deputy of Cyprus, and Cornelius. Rulers and those in dignity generally come within the range of the operations of the Spirit, and therefore the younger brothers having to say to the tribunals may reckon that there will be some effect produced by their testimony, hence the importance of a good confession. In connection with the Lord's own testimony Pilate's wife was affected, and we know that the centurion who stood by the cross was, and those that stood with him. So, however feeble our testimony, there may be some result from it in those 'above' in the governmental ordering of God.

D.R. Caiaphas was made to prophesy, and yet he

was not affected by it; I was wondering if this class of men appears in Acts in Gamaliel; he could say, "Withdraw from these men and let them alone, for if this counsel or this work have its origin from men, it will be destroyed; but if it be from God, ye will not be able to put them down".

J.T. Yes; there was ability to give wise counsel, and this was used of God to save His servants at a critical moment; this is a matter of great importance at all times, but there is no evidence that Gamaliel was genuinely affected -- any more than Balaam was affected.

R.R.T. Would you say just a word as to the difference between "my kingdom" in John and "the Father's kingdom" in Luke? When he teaches them to pray, He says, "Father ... thy kingdom".

J.T. Well, I was remarking that when the Lord says, "my kingdom", the stress would be on "my;" what it may embrace is another matter. I suppose in one sense the whole idea of the kingdom comes in under Him. The article placed before the kingdom in 1 Corinthians 15 makes it general; it is said, "He shall have delivered up the kingdom", without specifying which one. It is evidently the general idea of rule which never ceases; the principle of the kingdom goes right through; it must apply in all dispensations, even in the eternal state it must apply. He delivers up the kingdom to God the Father, and He Himself is subject. I would not like to undertake to deal with the specified kingdoms in our subject, but to fix our minds on the Lord's words, "my kingdom" and "my servants". You allude to chapter 11 of Luke. The Lord is praying in a certain place, and it was a question of how the disciples should pray. He said, "When ye pray, say, Father, thy name be hallowed; thy kingdom come", which is very beautiful. Addressing prayer to the Lord Jesus is more prevalent with some than addressing it to the Father, which is certainly not according to the tenor

of Scripture. I have heard prayers times without number and the Father has never been alluded to.

I think in our subject we should keep to what the Lord says to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence". The passage in Luke enables us to speak of how the matter enters into Luke's gospel; and also the passage in the book of Acts, both by the same author. In both he stresses the heavenly side; this ought to affect us much. The books, being addressed to an individual, have a personal touch. Thus in reading they affect you in a personal way. In chapter 11 which has been alluded to the Lord says, "How much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" The Father which is of heaven, not simply in it, but of it. The Son of man is also of heaven; it is not exactly the idea of place, but of character, the character of the dispensation, it is of heaven, it is here provisionally, not to continue. It is a provisional dispensation without time limits, as in the feast of Pentecost (Deuteronomy 16), a type of the Spirit; there is no time limit. It is elastic, as it were. And therefore the Father which is of heaven gives the Spirit, and the Spirit comes down from heaven.

He is sent down from heaven, too; so that the incoming of the Spirit is marked by heaven's assertion of itself in the sound that filled the house; and the Spirit coming in from heaven sat upon each of those gathered in the form of cloven tongues as of fire. It is a question of what is of heaven, what is set up there in Christ and what is inaugurated down here to testify to it; not only the terms of the gospel, but the system itself is heavenly, the centre being in heaven. In Luke it is said that shepherds were keeping their flock by night and the angel of the Lord was there by them;

light was there round about them, and presently a multitude of the heavenly host came down, praising God and saying, "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace, good pleasure in men". That is the general position, the earthly side is in view, but when we come to chapter 19 it is "peace in heaven", not peace on earth, that is celebrated, verses 37, 38.

That is the idea, peace is established in heaven, and the earth left in abeyance. It is presently to come in, but in the meantime the heavenly testimony is rendered. In Luke 9 the time of Christ's receiving up is said to have come; that is, everything was to be transferred up there. The centre of operations was to be in heaven.

When we come to chapter 24, the brethren will notice that there is no reference to the 40 days of the Lord's sojourn here. All the other gospels contemplate a delay after His resurrection before His ascending, but not Luke. All is viewed as having happened on the day of His resurrection. He is carried up into heaven, "received up in glory" as Paul says. The idea is speed to reach the point of the centre of operations above in heaven.

The Lord says to the disciples, "remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high", that is the position. So in Acts 1:6 the apostles raise a question as to the kingdom of Israel. "They therefore, being come together, asked him saying, Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel?" This is an earthly matter; He is not opening up that at all. He says, It is not for you to know the times and seasons. There is no such idea attached to the kingdom in John 18. It is "my kingdom" as we have seen. That was to be known. But as to the kingdom which Israel is to have part in, it belonged to "times and seasons", and the Lord says, "It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority; but ye will receive power". That is the

point, it is the Holy Spirit here, that is the thing for us, as for them, that the Holy Spirit has come down and is carrying on a system of operations, taking on a heavenly character, and men are, through the gospel, to come under the power of that. Later, as seen in chapter 10, the vessel comes down and goes back into heaven remaining there; it is here only provisionally.

C.A.M. Speaking about the dispensations, would you say that during the course of them there was a sort of stopping of the clock so that the present one should come in?

J.T. Yes. The 70 weeks do not include our period. The present is in a sense a nondescript dispensation. It does not fit into the ordinary or earthly ones; it is a new heavenly order of things which in itself is, in a way, inscrutable. It involves the mystery, the idea of Christ and the assembly, which is not understood save by those forming the assembly -- those who are initiated.

C.A.M. And yet this question was in mind in the book of Daniel when the four monarchies started. There was a recognition of heaven. It was "the God of the heavens" who was going to operate. Would you say that was preparatory in a providential way for this?

J.T. Well, what is stated in Daniel of course runs on into our dispensation. The mention of heaven would be over against Jerusalem as a centre; the Lord owned that Pilate had authority from above. Nebuchadnezzar and those who followed him were rulers on earth, and that leads us into what we had yesterday, chapter 13 of Romans. That system runs on, but only with a view to our system, the heavenly system. Everything is subservient to the heavenly system. The image that Nebuchadnezzar saw represented a state of things that would be abolished, but it serves a divine purpose.

J.A.W. Nebuchadnezzar had to learn a lesson, that the heavens do rule. That is what we are learning now.

J.T. He was king of kings on earth. He does not represent a heavenly state of things at all, it is just what is here for the moment.

D.R. So, referring to our brother's remark, while the clock has stopped as to the time of dispensations, yet what you said yesterday is important, that the fulness of every dispensation enters into this dispensation.

J.T. Quite so. The assembly is, as it were, the clearing house so that everything is understood. The prophets did not understand all they were saying, they anticipated the present period. Everything waited the incarnation; this dispensation is the filling out of Christ in the assembly, the body of Christ. It is all going to be received back into heaven and the clock of earthly time will start again. When God has the assembly in heaven, it will influence what will be on earth. So that things will be all named, as it were, adjusted in the future. Things will be understood in Israel better than they were ever understood in the Old Testament. Those who inhabit the earth in the millennium will have a much clearer apprehension of God and His kingdom than the Old Testament saints had.

J.A.W. Where do you fit the passage in Acts 2 into this?

J.T. To bring out the product of the first preaching of the gospel; what a beautiful result it was, and how true to itself, that in principle the character of this company was entirely heavenly! It is not what had been at Jerusalem; it was, under God, derived from the apostles; "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". It was a wholly new order of things.

R.R.T. Would you say that those things mentioned, the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, breaking of bread and prayers, are the features of this dispensation?

J.'I'. They are the basic features. Look at the following beautiful features that are depicted by the Spirit in the verses read, 44 to the end -- "all that believed were together". Now in the beginning of the chapter it is said, "they were all together in one place;" but the point in verse 44 is that they were together in character, knit together in heart; "and had all things common", which confirmed their oneness. Conditions testifying to love in the Spirit were there. They "had all things common, and sold their possessions and substance, and distributed them to all, according as any one might have need. And every day, being constantly in the temple with one accord, and breaking bread in the house, they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people; and the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved". Conditions were suitable for the Lord to add to. They were conditions of salvation and the Lord brought those that were to be saved into them. They were what He had in mind in speaking to Pilate of His kingdom. I hope we shall see in chapter 10 how this beautiful state of things is accentuated in a vessel. This will be largely through Paul. Here the thing is already proceeding in the character of it. The Lord can add those who are to be saved to that. It is the haven of protection and blessing for those who are to be saved.

J.L.F. These mutual conditions that were inaugurated here, the world has sought to re-establish as an ideal, but they have utterly failed through the years; but these conditions are in the assembly.

J.T. This is a great and blessed fact. Communism is a wretched imitation. This is the real thing, it is a heavenly product, not yet exactly named that, but it has already that character. It is presently to be definitely named 'the assembly;' it is the circle of the saints.

E.G.M. Is it that the one who drew the sword in

the garden and cut off the ear of the high priest's servant is used as a witness through the gospel to bring men together so that these blessed features should characterise them?

J.T. Quite so; he was a difficult brother to perfect, but the Lord says at the outset, I will make you something; the making was slow, but toward the end it was very rapid. The worst things that happened to Peter were within a few weeks of this time. We are living in an urgent situation and Luke has that in mind, and so he mentions at the end of his gospel two men in shining garments appearing suddenly. So that we may look for some sudden things happening to prepare us to go up. We can keep on praying for things to happen suddenly. The work proceeded rapidly with Peter, so that he became a finished product. Chapter 1 and this chapter show this. Through his great preaching and general service with the other eleven apostles we have the wonderful result described in these verses. The Lord could well designate it "my kingdom".

J.A.W. Does this thought of persevering mark what you said last night as to tilling and cultivating and spiritual formation?

J.T. Yes -- persevering; you mean of tilling and cultivating? You can see how they persevered, how these features marked the large number that were converted. Adam was placed in the garden for his own comfort and blessing first; it was a matter of favour to be in such a place. After the river is depicted he is again alluded to as being set in the garden to "till" and to "guard" it; and as regards the tree of responsibility, he is commanded; but he is already put to work, and I think that is what you get here. They persevered in the apostles' teaching, fellowship, the breaking of bread and prayers. They are like a beehive. We are not sleepy or careless or using the third person in speaking of the brethren; as converted through the

gospel we begin to do something for the brethren immediately.

C.H.H. Would this indicate that the collective and public position should continue in the way of testimony to the end? It has often been said that what is collective and public is gone, but this would indicate that, although in a small way, it continues.

J.T. I think the idea of being together goes on as in Malachi 3:16, "they that feared Jehovah spoke often one to another". So that the Lord addresses Philadelphia in the singular, "I will keep thee;" that is, the assembly is in mind, however small or feeble it may be. So that the heavenly city, the light of it, as it were reflecting back upon us, is governing us, the great thought of the assembly in the future. And what it is actually here in a concrete way is never to be given up, that is, the idea of the saints coming together to Christ's name. The Lord clothes with assembly glory the twos and threes gathering together in His name.

R.B. Verse 43 speaks of fear; is that normal and the result of teaching?

J.T. "Fear was upon every soul", meaning wholesome, godly fear; it was piety. Our God is a consuming fire. We are apt to overlook this searching and solemn fact. 1 Corinthians 11 speaks of many among the saints being weak and sickly and of many who had fallen asleep. We are apt to be very careless, but the severest thoughts enter into the government of the house of God. "Our God is a consuming fire" (Hebrews 12:29).

R.B. We may attend a meeting and at the end say that it was very nice -- but the result should be godly exercise and fear, should it not?

J.T. That is right; you go out of the door and the world, or the devil may confront you; hence you need to be on your guard, and retain carefully what you have received as together with the saints.

E.G.M. Do you mean that, while the present aspect of the kingdom is passive as to this world, it is anything but that in regard to us?

J.T. just so; in it is the direct rule of God. In regard of the public ordering of God, He is ruling indirectly in the nations, but His direct rule is in the assembly.

D.R. And so, would you say that Ananias and Sapphira are brought in after this to show that, while the fear of God was there, God would manifest any working of evil in the assembly and would prevent evil coming in? "But of the rest durst no man join them".

J.T. We get the spiritual position enhanced as we are faithful in judging sin. I always notice after a care meeting in which the Lord's interests are faithfully looked after that we have a good following first day of the week. In chapter 5 after the judgment of Ananias and Sapphira you get a striking testimony to the power of the apostles. Multitudes were added to the Lord, both of men and women; that is, the Lord's authority being recognised, souls were added to Him.

E.G.M. Are you accentuating the great truth of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit to maintain all of us in the assembly character against all adverse powers down here, so that we can maintain a good testimony as the Lord did before Pilate?

J.T. That is what is in mind in the book of Acts. Peter who used the sword and was told to put it back into its sheath is the one taken on immediately in the service; he is a finished product included in those whom the Lord calls "my servants". He is the leading one and he is not now talking about self-defence or attack in a physical way. The point is the Spirit, the power coming down from heaven, and that is effective in the assembly in dealing with Ananias and Sapphira; but the principal thought is that it is effective in delivering souls from the power of Satan and is spoiling his kingdom.

Chapter 4 speaks of the brethren praying as Peter and John were let go; they prayed to God as 'Despot', they are so concerned about the position that they approach God in that way. Under such circumstances we are impressed with the need of subjection. There is no room for our wills. They tell God about what happened at Jerusalem, "in this city". "For in truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hadst anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the nations, and peoples of Israel, have been gathered together in this city to do whatever thy hand and thy counsel had determined before should come to pass. And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and give to thy bondmen with all boldness to speak thy word, in that thou stretchest out thy hand to heal, and that signs and wonders take place through the name of thy holy servant Jesus" (Acts 4:27 - 30). Not a word about a physical sword at all. To Peter it would now be an utterly foreign thought.

There is more power in the Spirit than there is anywhere else. They are invoking God that this power should be turned to the salvation of men; and so "when they had prayed, the place in which they were assembled shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke the word of God with boldness". That is the position, it is a question of the Spirit.

C.H.H. What is the significance of the temple? When the testimony becomes public they were in the temple, not in the upper room. Does the temple suggest what is public?

J.T. Yes, it involves the light covering the position for the moment. That is, the patience of God towards the Jews was involved in their service. It is the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ. The kingdom and patience involves that the Jews must be appealed to in the gospel first -- to the Jew first -- and they are in accord with that light. According to Luke the Lord

led them out as far as to Bethany. It is a further point, but not any further than Bethany; that is the remnant position, where love was among the Jews; they were to carry on there as long as possible, which applied up to the time of Stephen's martyrdom, and further indeed. It is a great matter that the position taken at any time is suitable, and in things that are said, that the things said apply. The apostles understood what was implied in the Lord leading them to Bethany.

C.H.H. Now in our testimony do we maintain what is spiritually represented as the upper room and also the temple?

J.T. Not now; the Jewish period is over.

C.H.H. What I mean is, what that represents to us. For instance, we are here in temple light, that is maintained.

J.T. The word 'temple' in the sense in which you are using it is not what is employed here. The original word for temple here refers to the general buildings. It is not the shrine; it is the shrine we are in today, where the Spirit of God is. "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?" -- that represents the inner position; this is the outer position.

E.Mac. In Acts they returned from the Mount of Olives; in Luke's gospel it is Bethany. The former connects us with a new movement.

J.T. The Acts has the assembly in view; the gospel ends with the Jews in view, that the gospel was to be preached to all the nations, but "beginning at Jerusalem".

J.L.F. Would you say a word as to the difference between Bethany and the Mount of Olives?

J.T. I think Bethany would refer to what is said of it, that the Lord used to go there, as if He had a home there, a place of love. He went out to Bethany and spent the night, a very touching thing. He also used to go to the Mount of Olives. There are thus two

places that have, in this respect, to be understood. On the Mount of Olives He would be occupied with heavenly links; if He went to Bethany He was occupied with the Jewish links; there was affection. The Mount of Olives is seen in the beginning of the book of Acts; I would connect it there with the upper room; Bethany would connect with the temple. From there the disciples returned to Jerusalem and were in the temple praising and blessing God. That was a testimony to the Jews -- the result of the work of Christ; God was yet lingering there in patience.

C.H.H. Would that indicate that the full thought of the temple, the inner shrine, awaited the development of Paul's doctrine?

J.T. It would; he stresses it, applying it to God, "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God?" God is now reviving the thought among ourselves.

R.R.T. Linking on this passage with what you said as to "my kingdom", I was thinking of verse 45, "and sold their possessions and substance, and distributed them to all, according as any one might have need". Would that be a proper thing to do now in the light of what the Lord said: "My kingdom is not of this world"? If we take that in it will set worldly possessions in the right light.

J.T. It breaks up the whole system of commercialism, not that you want it broken up literally, but it is to show that the heavenly thoughts run athwart everything down here. That is what I thought we would see in Nehemiah in remnant times. This is carried on; in the beginning they sold their possessions and substance and distributed to all according as any one might have need. That was modified later. In this chapter we see the freshness and fulness of love as the Spirit came in from heaven. It is viewed in this way, not as the result of a commandment. It was modified, however, by teaching afterwards, the teaching of

wisdom. So that, when we come to chapter 4, Barnabas, a good man and ennobled by the apostles, had possessions which he sold, and he did not distribute the money himself, but laid it at the apostles' feet. It needs fidelity and wisdom to deal with money in relation to the things of God. It should be handled by at least two persons. There should be no room for fleshly feeling or suspicion. Barnabas laid it at the apostles' feet. God has vested wisdom and authority in those men, so that even in regard to money it was set at their feet, so that there was no danger of damage accruing from it; and the wisdom of all that is immediately demonstrated negatively in the action of Ananias and Sapphira. The devil worked in them through money; they kept back part of the price of the estate. It is remarkable that the example of Barnabas should come in there. Teaching and experience -- which mark the children of wisdom -- lead to stable results. These keep the river energised by the Spirit flowing within its banks. As we come to Paul we have much teaching regarding the custody and distribution of money.

That leads us to the passage in Nehemiah where the question of money comes up, and, being a remnant time, it applies for us now. Nehemiah was not a priest or prophet, but the servant of a gentile monarch, externally he was a governor appointed by the Persian king; but he brings in the heavenly thought as to money, agreeing with our passage anticipatively.

J.L.F. Do you think in Nehemiah the principle of commercialism had been pretty well established?

J.T. Yes. We know how much the Jews have been universally identified with it. God has allowed the Jew to be prominent in the history of human affairs, especially in commerce; it is "that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful". The love of commerce, of money-making through it, marks them peculiarly. It comes out in Nehemiah's time that

they used money for making money. The word is "usury", but then the Jew or any natural man would say, Why should not I make something out of my money? Why should not a man get interest on his money from the bank? That is commercialism, quite right in its place; but we are dealing with heavenly things and there it is quite wrong. The circle in Jerusalem (Acts 2), had got that thought in a very striking way. You cannot introduce the idea of usury in that circle, but here it is introduced.

Nehemiah says, "There was a great cry of the people and of their wives against their brethren the Jews. ... And there were that said, We have had to pledge our fields, and our vineyards, and our houses, that we might procure corn in the dearth. And there were that said, We have borrowed money for the king's tribute upon our fields and vineyards; yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children; and behold, we must bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought into bondage already; neither is it in the power of our hand to redeem them, for other men have our fields and our vineyards" (Nehemiah 5:1 - 5). There is the direct opposite of the heavenly thing, it is just earthly -- hard, financial trading in the hands of the Jews. That is abominable in the light of what we are talking about.

R.R.T. It is not in the light of the word of the Lord, "My kingdom is not of this world". They were dealing with worldly goods in accord with worldly practices; that is not in line with the thought of God.

J.T. Just so. Today christendom has come under the power of worldly principles; many preach the gospel for a salary, and many corresponding things are attached to the service. If you look into the Romish system you will find it characterised by money; money is the first and last word there. Revelation 18 depicts the immense

wealth which the merchants of the earth acquired through supplying the luxuries of that system. Among the articles of commerce were the "bodies and souls of men".

C.A.M. I suppose those coming under the influence of heaven have the result that they shall be received up in glory.

J.T. Yes; and if one has material means, wisdom in him would use them in view of the future, which will imply benefit to others. The steward mentioned in Luke 16:1 - 9 used what was under his hand in view of the future, and the Lord said as to his actions, "Make to yourselves friends with the mammon of unrighteousness, that when it fails ye may be received into the eternal tabernacles". Returning to our chapter: Nehemiah was not an apostle, priest or prophet, nor even a Levite; he was just a governor appointed by the Persians. But he took up the things of God in his heart. A man may be, under the government of God, in service in any department of the government, but at the same time have the things of God in his heart; and God may use him very definitely. Nehemiah could say, I have not been chargeable to the people as other governors have been -- "I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor". He was governed by the heavenly principles of which we have been speaking. And although he had no official spiritual appointments he rendered remarkable spiritual services.

D.R. Although in remnant days, would he represent the spirit of discernment and judgment that belongs to God's people under normal conditions?

J.T. I think that is the thought, and it should be encouraging for us because we are more or less occupied with secular things, even some in military things, in all the countries. The Spirit of God does not make little of military men, for they may be in positions in which they serve with good consciences, and may be fully in

the truth. Daniel was a great minister under Nebuchadnezzar, but he had God and His people and Jerusalem in his heart. That is how Nehemiah begins his book. He was deeply affected when he heard the state of Jerusalem, because that is the centre of the Jewish order of things. He was the king's cupbearer and he came before the king, and his countenance was sad. That was dangerous as liable to arouse apprehension in the king. Nehemiah sacrifices for the sake of Jerusalem. He told the cause of his sadness to the king -- the king was there and the queen also, a suggestive thought spiritually. He told the whole story and he was sent to Jerusalem as governor. The persons who were practising this usury were men of a certain distinction. Nehemiah says, "I was very angry when I heard their cry and these words. And I consulted with myself; and I remonstrated with the nobles and the rulers, and said to them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother! And I set a great assembly against them. And I said to them, We, according to our ability, have redeemed our brethren the Jews, who were sold to the nations; and will ye even sell your brethren? or shall they be sold unto us? And they were silent and found no, answer" verses 6 - 8.

Applying this to our own times, the revival in which we have part has the deliverance of the brethren in mind. If I take any course because of certain distinctions, whatever they may be -- my profession may give me distinction, my family also -- to advance myself, I am sure to bring the brethren into bondage in some measure.

E.G.M. So that we are supposed to keep our natural and spiritual assets in a condition of liberty.

J.T. Let heaven govern us; thus we shall be morally above selfish motives. You are not going to use the little or much of material things you have under God to bring the brethren into bondage.

J.L.F. Do we get the idea of assembly action here? This matter is gone into in a collective way.

J.T. I think so. What is brought out in the chapter is the distinctiveness of Nehemiah as a heavenly man in type. He says, "I consulted with myself;" that is a good word in such a connection. Nehemiah can do things by himself. There are a lot of personal friendships amongst us; there is hardly a thing more damaging. Initially, as one has a serious matter brought to his attention, he turns to God as to it by himself; thus as challenging his own heart the position becomes clear, and he has liberty to move in relation to the assembly, having righteous influence. Nehemiah "remonstrated with the nobles and the rulers ... and I set a great assembly against them". Evidently God was with him in all this, for the offenders said, "We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do as thou hast said", verse 12.

R.R.T. Is it not solemn that those who seem to be chiefly harmed by it are the young amongst the brethren? They are brought into bondage.

J.T. Yes; and there would be the thought of equality on their parents' part in their families as compared with the families of the nobles, whereas they were becoming enslaved. So that the nobles are using their money to captivate their brethren and degrade them.

R.R.T. Anything that brings the young among the brethren into bondage curtails their liberty.

J.T. Indeed, these are the complaints made here. The people said first, "We, our sons and our daughters, are many, and we must procure corn that we may eat and live". That is a good word to many of the young people. One of the most encouraging things I know of is the great number of young people affected by the truth; but they need to be fed. Then again, "There were that said, We have had to pledge our fields, and

our vineyards, and our houses, that we might procure corn in the dearth". That is the second thing, and then thirdly, "There were that said, We have borrowed money for the king's tribute upon our fields and vineyards; yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children; and behold, we must bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought into bondage already; neither is it in the power of our hand to redeem them, for other men have our fields and vineyards".

This is a clear statement of the situation, and the gist of it is that some were being made inferior and others were made superior, which is foreign to the heavenly thought; all our names are written in heaven. Every Levite is a firstborn, which is impossible in the world. In the world every person cannot be a firstborn; it is a heavenly idea -- "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". You cannot get that in the world at all.

R.R.T. That is contrary to what we had in Acts 2, "all things common", although, as you say, the working out of it requires wisdom.

C.H.H. In Galatians the features of attack were to bring the brethren into bondage, so that the apostle gets "all the brethren" with him.

J.T. "All the brethren with me", he says. In the matter before us Nehemiah represents a brother who has power; what a brother who is with God may effect -- what one man can do in a spiritual way if he is with God. He influenced the brethren to be with him in meeting the difficulty. He said, "I consulted with myself; and I remonstrated with the nobles and the rulers, and said to them, Ye exact usury, every one of his brother! And I set a great assembly against them. And I said to them, We, according to our ability, have redeemed our brethren the Jews, who

were sold to the nations; and will ye even sell your brethren? or shall they be sold unto us? And they were silent and found no answer", verses 7, 8. That is how a spiritual man shines; but he knows what to say, and they had no answer. So the victory is won.

C.S.P. Does not his moral power for good come in as an example?

J.T. Exactly. He said to them, "Restore, I pray you, to them this very day their fields, their vineyards, their olive-gardens, and their houses, also the hundredth part of the money, and of the corn, the wine and the oil, that ye have exacted of them. And they said, We will restore them, and will require nothing of them; so will we do, as thou hast said. And I called the priests, and took an oath of them, that they should do according to this promise", verses 11, 12. He brings the priests into the thing, to enforce what had been undertaken. And then he says, "Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even to the thirty-second year of Artaxerxes the king, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor. But the former governors that were before me had been chargeable to the people, and had taken of them bread and wine, besides forty shekels of silver; even their servants bore rule over the people. But I did not so, because of the fear of God", verses 14, 15.

If that man were a mere Jew he would say, What a fine bank account I have built up during these twelve years! That would express the Jewish mind, but not so with the heavenly man, he has nothing to do with that. Nehemiah further says, "Yea, also I applied myself to this work of the wall, and we bought no fields; and all my servants were gathered thither for the work. And there were at my table a hundred and fifty of the Jews and the rulers, besides those that came to us from among the nations that were about us. And

that which was prepared daily was one ox and six choice sheep; also fowls were prepared for me, and once in ten days all sorts of wine in abundance. Yet for all this I demanded not the bread of the governor; for the service was heavy upon this people. Remember for me, my God, for good, all that I have done for this people", verses 16 - 19.

That is typically a heavenly man, he had not gotten a penny out of all this, but he had the people, he set the people free.

E.Mac. He is like Paul, he would not be chargeable to the brethren.

J.T. He asserted his right but he would not use it. We can understand how he could say, "The Lord ... shall preserve me for his heavenly kingdom" (2 Timothy 4:18).

D.R. "I do not seek yours but you", he said.

E.G.M. Nehemiah states two good reasons for what he did: "But I did not so, because of the fear of God;" and then, "for the service was heavy upon this people".

J.T. Another thing is that in these last days the Lord has brought to light and stressed the thought of eternal life, and I believe that Nehemiah here is typically promoting the idea of eternal life in entertaining and thus getting the saints together in his house and providing good food for them. I believe that is one way by which God would have us lay hold of eternal life, to get spiritual persons into our houses and show them hospitality, which is a heavenly thought; it is like entertaining angels. Nehemiah said he had one hundred and fifty of the Jews and rulers, "besides those that came to us from among the nations that were about us". What times they must have had, representing spiritual gatherings! You get the concrete idea of eternal life as spiritual brethren are gathered together. See Psalm 133.

R.B. Gatherings of today are often of the young people, by themselves, the older ones not with them. That is not your thought in speaking of this matter, it is rather young and old together.

J.T. Yes. You will not get eternal life characteristically in gatherings of young people by themselves; they have not enough spiritual power for it. They are apt to bring in the natural. It is safer and holier for them to be with the older brethren. Nehemiah says, "There were at my table a hundred and fifty of the Jews and the rulers". Typically they would be the spiritual. You will get spiritual power in a house like that of Nehemiah; there would be no lightness or frivolity at his table.

E.G.G. Why are the heathen referred to as being there too?

J.T. They would be interested ones, "besides those that came to us from among the nations". Why did they come? It must have been because they were interested in what was current in Jerusalem. It is the idea of spiritual heavenly links. We are wise in entertaining the saints; we shall get returns.

C.H.H. The family of Job was a sad affair, doing without their father.

J.T. The young people were getting together without their father. I thought in suggesting this chapter that it would help the brethren here to see how in the types we have examples in the last days, in remnant times, of heavenly things brought into view; in a man sacrificing for the sake of the saints, loving to do it, and having a good table. He records what was prepared daily: "one ox and six choice sheep; also fowls were prepared for me, and once in ten days all sorts of wine in abundance". Mentioning these items of food is not unimportant; it is all to promote the good feeling that belongs to a heavenly people.

D.R. Have you time to tell us what the ox and the sheep might suggest?

J.T. Much might be said. An ox would go a long

way, it would cost something; six choice sheep also would be costly. Liberality is indicated; what marks a heavenly man is that he is liberal and provides for what will produce good feeling and build up wholesome constitutions in the saints.

J.L.F. There is completeness in the things that Nehemiah does; he not only restores their fields, their vineyards, their olive-yards, and their houses, but also the hundredth part of the money and of the corn, the wine and the oil.

J.T. Yes. The hundredth part of the money would be the interest, which would be one per cent a month, as was customary. The wine would be stimulation which is good in a sense; if it is spiritual it is very good, especially in eating; in spiritual appetite there should be good assimilation, so that wine would have that in mind. Nehemiah's strong admonition and warning evoked a very satisfactory response, one which glorified God. "All the congregation said, Amen! And they praised Jehovah. And the people did according to this promise", verse 13.

R.R.T. Nehemiah here would answer a question that was raised earlier as to what was said in Acts, "fear was upon every soul". Nehemiah said, referring to his refusal to be chargeable to the people, "But I did not so, because of the fear of God". This would illustrate a man moving on unselfish lines.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM NOT OF THIS WORLD (4)

Acts 10:9 - 20

J.T. Heaven's repeated interventions, according to this book, greatly help in the consideration of our subject, especially the one in the verses read. A vessel is seen let down from heaven and taken up so as to remain there -- pointing to the finish of the present dispensation, which is now imminent; and this passage was suggested as conveying a very definite thought as to what is before us, the heavens opened and the sheet let down, all in connection with Peter's vision. He said, "it came even to me", as if to remind us that he had been engaged as in the lead throughout, and that he is now being helped as to the change in the course of the testimony, in which heaven is even more stressed as asserting itself.

What was said this morning connected itself with Peter's work at Pentecost being accomplished, heaven asserting itself in a powerful way. There was "a sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing", as indicating the character of service which was to be rendered; it would be marked by power. Then Stephen, at the turning point, sees the heavens opened, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Luke tells us in the close of his gospel, of Christ being carried up into heaven, but he does not say that the disciples saw Him as He was there, but Stephen sees Him standing at the right hand of God. It was as yet a transitional state of things, God was lingering in longsuffering as to His ancient people, maintaining the character of this dispensation. The Son of man standing at the right hand of God is to remind us that a change is taking place in heaven as the centre of operations, all men being now in view for blessing. And then, the light from heaven that surrounded Saul and the Lord's

voice speaking to him, saying, "Saul, Saul, why dost thou persecute me?" are mentioned in Acts 9. All this precedes our chapter, where again the heaven is opened and a vessel like a great sheet is let down to the earth; in which were all the quadrupeds and creeping things of the earth and the fowls of the heaven. Following on the light afforded to Stephen and Saul this vision to Peter makes known to him that God was now operating among the nations, bringing them into the assembly.

The truth of what the Lord said to Pilate, that His kingdom was not of this world, is thus opened up and amplified. It was the time of suffering. Stephen was exemplifying this. Kneeling down he cried with a loud voice, "lay not this sin to their charge". It was a time of persecution. That is the idea that we are seeking to make clear now: that the kingdom of which the Lord Jesus speaks is not of this world, and that one who is of it and characterised by its principles is not revengeful, but on the contrary, prays for his enemies. And when Paul is brought in, the Lord says of him, "I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name" (Acts 9:16). It is very remarkable that the Spirit of God stresses that the present period is one of suffering.

C.S.P. Would this have a link with the opened heavens in Luke 3?

J.T. Yes. There heaven opens and proclaims what it thinks of Jesus as down here; but in the Acts heaven opens and Jesus is seen there, and its operations in the power of the Spirit here below are intimated. In Luke 3:22 it is as the Lord was praying the heaven was opened, and the voice came out of heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son, in thee I have found my delight". It was to announce the Father's pleasure in Jesus. In the Acts the interventions of heaven are to remind us of what heaven is doing or going to do. Jesus is made

Lord and Christ up there, and having sent the Holy Spirit, divine operations are proceeding. All men are in view for blessing and the assembly is the building. The great and blessed work is now nearly complete. Acts 10:16 says, "the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven". That is what should be before us. The time is coming for the assembly's translation to heaven. In the meantime the Lord is providing men to carry on as His servants to preach the gospel and work generally "with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ" (Ephesians 4:12, 13).

J.L.F. Is the thought in Acts 9:6, "rise up and enter into the city and it shall be told thee what thou must do", in keeping with the thought of heaven being prepared to proceed in relation to what is here?

J.T. Yes; it was really indicated in the Lord's first word to Saul and Saul's reply, "Why dost thou persecute me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". Saul was convicted of dreadful criminality but, instead of the deserved penalty, the chief of sinners, as he characterised himself later, was taken into the service of Him whom he had persecuted. The Lord's further word to him was, "rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". But he must suffer, not for his guilt, but as bearing testimony to the Master whom he was now learning to obey and to love. The Lord said, "this man is an elect vessel to me, to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel: for I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name" (Acts 9:15, 16). Instead of penalty Saul had part in the continuation of this wonderful kingdom of which the Lord spoke to Pilate. He was to be one of His servants; he was indeed a pattern servant. As to what

the Lord had in mind, Saul himself says, "that in me, the first, Jesus Christ might display the whole long-suffering, for a delineation of those about to believe on him to life eternal" (1 Timothy 1:16). To the saints he could say, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11:1). So that it is now a question of putting ourselves into this immense matter each in his measure, as serving in Christ's kingdom for the little while that remains. As an example for us John addresses himself to the saints: "Your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience in Jesus" (Revelation 1:9).

J.A.W. You are suggesting in this that if we are determined to go in for these heavenly things that you have been suggesting in these readings, we must be prepared to suffer?

J.T. That is the point. Any attempt to avoid suffering implies that in principle we are moving out of the position into which we have come professedly through baptism and the Lord's supper.

J.A.W. It is on the principle of laying down your life for His name's sake and gaining life eternal.

J.T. Quite so, "because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also" (Philippians 1:29). It is given to us.

D.H. Given by God, do you think? Paul says, "I think that God has set us the apostles for the last, as appointed to death. For we have become a spectacle to the world, both to angels and men ... . Railed at, we bless; persecuted, we suffer it; insulted, we entreat: we are become as the offscouring of the world, the refuse of all, until now" (1 Corinthians 4:9 - 13).

J.T. Quite so. To the Corinthians the apostle enlarges greatly on his sufferings.

C.H.H. Would the character of the dispensation be preserved in the prayer in Acts 4? They pray in regard to the threatenings of their enemies. They ask God to

stretch out His hand to heal; instead of asking for revenge.

J.T. That is right. We noted when looking at Romans 12 that we are not to avenge ourselves. God says, "Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense". Our part is to be like Stephen, who kneeling down, as he was being stoned, and praying said, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge".

C.H.H. Would this section suggest the work of God as securing right feelings? Peter, being hungry, is affected in this sense.

J.T. Yes; "he became hungry and desired to eat", before the ecstasy came upon him; the sense of hunger prepared him for the vision, in which he is directed to slay and eat. He had gone up on the house to pray. In this we are reminded of the need of peaceful conditions as engaged in prayer. We are to pray at all times, but suitable conditions should not be overlooked. In view of the vision, the state of Peter's stomach was taken account of, that the feeling of hunger should be there.

R.R.T. Is there a significance in this passage in God correcting Peter, because he was one that was inclined to cling to the old dispensation?

J.T. Yes; as Ananias questioned the Lord as to what He said of Saul, so Peter refuses the direction to him, "slay and eat". He said, "In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean". Peter questioned Him. That is often the case with us, we profess obedience, but when conditions do not suit us we rebel. We call Him Lord, but do not the things that He says.

J.A.W. What you said about praying is very interesting. Stephen kneeled down and prayed, and one of the features that Ananias was to find in Saul was that he was praying; and you find Peter going up to pray.

J.T. The Lord Himself was praying when the heavens were opened on Him, showing the importance of prayer in all that has come before us.

A.D.S. He went up to pray about the sixth hour. Would that have some significance?

J.T. Well, I have no doubt that certain allusions in the Acts to time have spiritual significance. The sixth and ninth hours point to the cross. The ninth hour in chapter 3 is very suggestive of the actual time of our Lord's death, when He said, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" This hour also comes into chapter 10 -- involving the remarkable experience of Cornelius. The moment is quite significant as linking the incoming of the nations with the actual time of day in which the atoning death of the Saviour of the world took place. And in chapter 10 we also have the sixth hour -- connected with the same event. The light for the revelation of the gentiles was becoming dispensationally effective, Luke 2:32. Referring again to sufferings as marking Christ's kingdom, James says, "Ye have condemned, ye have killed the just; he does not resist you". That was exactly what Saul found in the disciples in Jerusalem. He entered into the houses "one after another, and dragging off both men and women delivered them up to prison" (Acts 8:3). People say, What will you do if an enemy comes in and attacks your wife or your mother? What did the christians in the early days do? That is the point. What did they do when Saul dragged them out of their houses and put them in prison? They did not resist. Just as he says of himself later: "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter".

C.S.P. That is always in keeping with the attitude of God in Christ at the present moment.

J.T. Exactly. The matter of suffering is so little understood and experienced that we are hardly able

to speak of it in power. We are privileged to take the attitude of suffering; "to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also" (Philippians 1:29).

It will be well to follow the history as we have it in Acts in regard to the subject before us -- the heavenly side of it. Chapters 2, 7 and 10 treat of this great feature. Chapter 7 is the most touching of all the records, Stephen follows so closely the example of his Master, representing what His kingdom is. "My kingdom is not of this world", the Lord says. It is an order of things involving suffering. He was about to suffer, the apostles suffered, and Stephen follows. Stephen seems to have been taken up to exemplify that side of the position. Kneeling down he says to the Lord, "Lay not this sin to their charge". He is priestly, maintaining a suitable attitude in severest suffering.

J.L.F. The heavenly feature was evidenced in the fact that "all who sat in the council, looking fixedly on him, saw his face as the face of an angel".

E.G.M. Do you find in the stoning of Stephen characteristically what marks persecutors? He says, "O stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers, ye also. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain those who announced beforehand concerning the coming of the Just One, of whom ye have now become deliverers up and murderers!" (Acts 7:51, 52). And it is recorded that "hearing these things they were cut to the heart, and gnashed their teeth against him. But being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God". In a way he disregarded their murderous efforts against him -- no doubt largely because he had his eye on heaven.

J.T. Just so. Stephen looks up into heaven. Being

a true martyr, he is accepting the stoning, "having fixed his eyes on heaven". He sees Jesus standing at the right hand of God. He tells those present what he saw. He put it in his own words: "Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God". Stephen is one of the most important persons entering into our inquiry. Among other things he understands what is going on in heaven, and while experiencing dreadful sufferings he is able to describe the position visible to him there. There was a turn in the course of the testimony, and this description of what he sees in heaven implies this. Heaven was to determine everything, and Stephen conveys in his own language what he saw. Instead of referring to Jesus as the Christ, he says, "I behold ... the Son of man" -- this implying that the testimony is going to widen out. The witness is being murdered, but the testimony is going to widen out to the whole race of man. In all this Stephen is a representative of Christ's kingdom -- both in verbal testimony and suffering.

E.G.M. In the power of this, does he still control the situation? It says, "And they stoned Stephen, praying, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And having said this, he fell asleep" (Acts 7:59, 60), as though he was in the full effect of what he saw in heaven.

J.T. Yes. The position is morally very great. It is as if what he saw in heaven dominated him. As already said, it represented what the Lord conveyed in the expression, "My kingdom". Had Stephen seen the Lord coming out in full military form, as in Revelation 19, riding on a white horse, and the armies which are in heaven following upon white horses, he would not have said these things. He would understand the position was changed. But in effect Stephen's face,

actions and words reflected the attitude of heaven at that time, and this continues to the present moment. Heaven is still pursuing this course of testimony in grace, and suffering is involved. Normally the believer is accepting the suffering, in keeping with heaven's attitude.

H.G. Is that why three great converts follow immediately: the Ethiopian eunuch, Saul of Tarsus and then Cornelius?

J.T. Just so. The prayer of Stephen reflected the impression made on him by what he saw in heaven. It is a heavenly matter. Heaven is the centre of operations, and thus we need to know what is current up there.

H.G. It would work out in the whole earth.

J.T. Yes. The present war accustoms us to every part of the earth; names of places in all parts of the earth are coming up constantly. That is not for nothing; God thus enlarges our view through governmental circumstances.

R.R.T. What Stephen does here is according to the manner of what the Lord did as recorded in John 17. He lifted up his eyes to heaven.

J.T. The next feature of our subject is in chapter 9. Chapter 8 shows there was an evangelical activity without a commission. We have to learn to carry on without a commission. Let us do what our hands find to do and the work will be successful, as we observed in Nehemiah. What a successful service his was! Outwardly he was simply a Persian governor, but he carried on in God's work and God blessed what was done. The great result in Samaria through Philip was similar. And then Philip was taken on definitely by heaven. It is a question of what the man is, which is evident in the results of his work. Acts 8 is a finished matter in itself; and chapter 9 is Paul. It is a particularly heavenly matter. Paul is to be shown how much he must suffer for Christ's name.

J.A.W. It is interesting in regard of Philip, that he

ultimately had his commission -- "Rise up and go southward ... and he rose up and went". And Paul is directed by the Lord to go into the city, and he goes into the city. Later Peter is told by the Spirit to "rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting", and he did so. All the ministry that is constantly coming before us in these meetings is meant to have an effect upon us and it is incumbent on us to follow it up, being responsive to it.

J.T. Exactly. First Philip is directed by an angel; but later the Spirit takes him on, Acts 8:26, 39. It is a greater thing to be taken on by the Spirit than by an angel. "The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip". He is in this way distinguished, and also called an evangelist; and he had four daughters who prophesied.

D.R. It seems to complete his work. The Spirit said to Philip, "Approach and join this chariot;" and then the Spirit caught him away, his work with the eunuch being finished.

J.T. Just so. He was found at Azotus. He did not immediately go to Caesarea. Evidently the Spirit of God at first worked in Caesarea without any servant, that is, in Cornelius. Later Peter opened the door to the gentiles there. But Paul's ministry is all-important, following upon Stephen. He was a witness to Stephen's martyrdom. He saw the way that saints die in service. Stephen shows how to die for the truth, and I am sure his death impressed Saul. The Lord says, "For I will shew to him how much he must suffer for my name". Who suffered more? You marvel at the record we have of Paul's sufferings. The Corinthians forced him to write about them, and what he wrote is in Scripture for us to read.

C.H.H. You quoted Revelation 19 in connection with the Lord coming out of heaven sitting on a white horse, but just previous to that the chapter speaks about the Lamb's wife having made herself ready. That

involves suffering during the present time, does it not?

J.T. Yes. The Lamb is the Sufferer. She is His wife. It is granted to her to be clothed in fine linen, bright and pure, which is the righteousnesses of the saints.

Now when we come to Acts 9 we get the Lord's mind about Paul; also the history of his conversion and early service. Peter had been somewhat in the background; but the movement of heaven centering in Paul having begun, he is seen in this chapter active in "all quarters", verse 32. This would imply that he was able to sense the changed conditions through the new ministry. He directs one man to rise up and make his bed for himself; and then he raises up Dorcas. Afterwards we are told that he remained in Joppa with a certain Simon, a tanner. He was on the Mediterranean, having an outlook toward the west; he was there "many days", after raising up Dorcas.

All this is preliminary to what is presented in chapter 10 -- the creatures in the "vessel;" because a tanner must have skins, and these are from cattle that are slain; so that he would be conversant with the thought of animals. Adam had to do with them and named them. And now Peter is on a tanner's housetop and sees the vessel which descended from heaven containing all the quadrupeds, etc. I am saying this to bring out the position. What skin did Jehovah Elohim use to make coats for Adam and Eve? We cannot tell, but he made them of skin. And now we have another idea, skins tanned by the man with whom Peter "remained many days". "But a certain man in Caesarea by name Cornelius, a centurion of the band called Italic, pious, and fearing God with all his house, both giving much alms to the people, and supplicating God continually". He had not been evangelised so far as we know, but now he is directed by the angel to send for Peter.

P.H. The thought of tanning clearly has to do with death.

J.T. Yes. The tabernacle was marked everywhere by what suggested death. The outer coverings were all of skins of animals; and if the law was carried out animals were slain every day, blood was flowing. As of the antitype, we have to face those solemn facts. All that suffering referred to the death of Jesus, and the saints must be in accord with that.

J.A.W. The house of Simon the tanner was by the sea. Does that give a suggestion that Peter is in readiness to see what God was going to do in the peoples of the earth?

J.T. Yes, the Mediterranean is regarded as the centre of the western world. It was an outlook for him, and whatever he may have understood by it, we can understand it now. The truth is all out. God would impress him with it; he had an outlook from the roof of the house. We are on the western extremity of the earth at this moment. 7,000 miles from where Peter was. His outlook would be in this direction; the western world was specially in God's mind for blessing.

C.A.M. I suppose with that vision he would pray for one who could navigate! Navigation had to wait for Paul, the great navigator.

J.T. Quite so. "Yonder is the great and wide sea; therein are moving things innumerable, living creatures small and great. There go the ships" (Psalm 104:25, 26). The gospel ships were being prepared.

J.A.W. You are speaking of having reached the extreme point in the west. Does that make the present moment a very important one, as if the testimony was about to be completed?

J.T. I think it does. What are the dear brethren going to do about this extremity? How is this end to be held up? The finish is near, and conditions among the saints must be right. Peter's prayer on the housetop would surely extend in this direction.

E.G.M. Peter no doubt had the choice of any of

the saints' houses in that town, but he chose this one; this would be in God's ordering as marked by the suggestion of death, and it had a right outlook.

J.T. That is what I think. The facts mentioned have a meaning, also the facts relative to the garments made by Dorcas. All that is said about her garment making reminds us of conditions that the gospel had to overcome.

E.G.M. Would you take it that the vision coming at the time of Peter's prayer was rather a surprise to him? Peter was evidently exercised over something, and God says, I will give you the right answer, but it may not be what you are looking for. Is that the way unexpected events often come into our circumstances?

J.T. I think so. He was not ready for what the creatures in the sheet signified. His reply to "the voice" was negative.

W.F. What would help us in relation to Peter's answer here? The Lord said, "Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?" Peter had a great deal of experience with the Lord, yet he questions His voice.

J.T. I suppose it suggests to us the danger of being self-willed, although calling Him Lord, Lord; but not doing the things that He says. The voice says, "Rise, Peter, slay and eat". Put into spiritual language that means, Arise, Peter, and appropriate the effect of the work of God among the gentiles, as well as among the Jews. God is taking them on; the vessel is full of them in representation, and Peter must accept them. Cornelius is, of course, the one immediately in mind. But Peter says, "In no wise, Lord; for I have never eaten anything common or unclean". He has to learn that what God cleanses is clean indeed and must be recognised as qualified for christian fellowship. Peter submits, however. The Spirit took him in hand and he went with the men who were sent by Cornelius.

And as with him and the company gathered in Caesarea Peter said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him". The answer to Peter comes three times: "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common. And this took place thrice". We see here the patience of heaven in bringing servants into accord with itself. Three times is a perfect process, so that it is said, "the vessel was straightway taken up into heaven". Then it is said that, "as Peter doubted in himself what the vision which he had seen might mean, behold also the men who were sent by Cornelius, having sought out the house of Simon, stood at the gate, and having called someone, they inquired if Simon who was surnamed Peter was lodged there. But as Peter continued pondering over the vision, the Spirit said to him, Behold, three men seek thee; but rise up, go down, and go with them, nothing doubting, because I have sent them". The Spirit comes on the scene. Wherever the Spirit comes in definitely, as we may see in chapter 13, a conclusion is reached. The Spirit Himself is taking the thing in hand. It is not now an angel, as in verse 3, but the Spirit. He says, "go down, and go with them". That is how Peter was adjusted.

R.R.T. In regard to this "pious soldier", verse 7, here was a military man, and yet a pious man. Would that help us as to how we are to regard brethren who are called into the service, and yet carry with it piety?

J.T. The reference is very remarkable. Luke especially mentions military men as coming into relation with the testimony. We must not despise brethren because they are military men. There are brethren in Great Britain who are in actual service, both in the navy and army. They joined before they were converted. Undoubtedly Cornelius and the pious soldier were of this class. No doubt the word, "if thou

canst become free, use it rather", governs such positions. What has been said as to Christ's kingdom in its present form should determine the christian's attitude as to combatant military service. John 18 makes the matter perfectly clear. It is due to the government that he should do what he can for it except taking human life. Anyone enlisting takes things out of the hands of God. It is a heavenly matter, involving that the bodies of the saints belong to the Lord and His kingdom. Our struggle is not with flesh and blood.

E.G.M. Does the sheet with all the different animals, fowls, etc., in it, indicate that God had a different way of subduing them than by the sword?

J.T. Yes. They are in the sheet and come down from heaven. We should have confidence in what comes down from heaven. The voice tells Peter to slay and eat; it is not slaying men, but slaying beasts, making them available for food. All is typical -- to show that what God had cleansed in a spiritual sense should be appropriated in this sense.

C.S.P. Is the thought that when a man is converted, he is slain?

J.T. Well, that is the way it works out, made available for the purpose in hand. That is what the type means, an element for the clean or unclean.

M.D.F.Jr. Our young brothers are asking one another, What is the difference between a man who makes a bullet and one who fires it?

J.T. You are serving for wages, and the government has certain work to do and you do it. What the government does with the product you make is not your business. We pay taxes: there is no question as to what the authorities do with the money. The governments of the world are ordained of God, and they represent Him in the work required of them. For this they need physical means to maintain order, involving the taking of human life, extending even to war. Christ's kingdom

in its present form recognises all this as we saw when considering John 18, but it does not admit of christians using the sword, as the Lord's words to Peter and Pilate recorded in that chapter plainly show.

E.G.M. In verse 21 Peter is seen going down to the men who were sent to him from Cornelius, and he said, "Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause for which ye come?" He was ready to go now, but he would not yet have complete understanding of the situation because in verse 29 he says, "Wherefore also, having been sent for, I came without saying anything against it. I inquire therefore for what reason ye have sent for me". I suppose you take each step in faith as you come to it.

J.T. Just so; and in Simon's house he invited in those who came from Cornelius. Let us not forget that. It suggests that if you come to a town to serve the Lord and a brother receives you into his house you may have liberty to invite others to it. Peter invited them in. He did not ask his host to invite them in. "Having therefore invited them in, he lodged them. And on the morrow, rising up he went away with them, and certain of the brethren from Joppa went with him". All this points to the liberty marking Christ's kingdom.

J.A.W. Is it not interesting that Peter, although evidently not quite clear in his mind as to why he was going, moved in faith and obedience, verse 23? And in verse 24 it is said that "Cornelius was looking for them". There is faith in the receiver and in the one who was sent.

J.T. Just so. Peter is now the object of attention. The Spirit of God occupies us with Peter as an adjusted man; heaven taking account of him in this way. "And on the morrow they came to Caesarea. But Cornelius was looking for them, having called together his kinsmen and his intimate friends. And when Peter was now

coming in, Cornelius met him, and falling down did him homage". Cornelius was looking for them, and "falling down, did him homage". That is remarkable. Peter is tested and through this a needed truth is asserted -- that the most honoured of Christ's servants is not an object of worship. Peter is a representative of heaven, but his so-called successor is not a representative of heaven. He who sits in the Vatican would accept as due to him the reverence which Cornelius rendered Peter. But the apostle here is in accord with the Lord's designations, "my kingdom" and "my servants". He said to Cornelius, "Rise up: I myself also am a man". He is thoroughly with the Lord Jesus as the Son of man standing at the right hand of God. He is working for heaven. So that the record is very beautiful as developing what the Lord designates as "my kingdom" and those He calls "my servants". To Cornelius and his company Peter explains the position in relation to Christ in a general way, and he preaches the gospel to them. And the Spirit fell on those men who are listening to the apostle's words -- a wonderful scene of heavenly operations! "While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word. And the faithful of the circumcision were astonished, as many as came with Peter, that upon the nations also the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out: for they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God. Then Peter answered, Can any one forbid water that these should not be baptised, who have received the Holy Spirit as we also did? And he commanded them to be baptised in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay some days". So that is the finish of this great administrative service committed by the Lord to Peter according to Matthew 16 and by the grace and guidance of the Spirit carried out so successfully, as we have seen in the chapter before us.

CHRIST'S KINGDOM NOT OF THIS WORLD (5)

Hebrews 8:1 - 6; Ephesians 2:4 - 10

J.T. These chapters will enable us to see how the subject before us enters into the service of God. They treat of the heavenly side of the believer's position. Hebrews has been regarded as 'the book of the opened heavens'. Not in the literal sense in which we have already spoken of the opened heavens, but in a truly spiritual way. There "we see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour". The passage read calls attention to the fact that if He were on earth He would not be a priest; He is a priest in heaven. "We have such a one high priest who has sat on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens; minister of the holy places and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man".

These facts enter into our services on the first day of the week, and indeed generally, but especially on the first day of the week, involving a rising trend. The passage in Ephesians has been read because it tells us that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. The trend in the services is heavenly and really prepares us for our ascension into heaven. That is the normal consummation of the whole matter of divine service as entrusted to the assembly. It will continue eternally because God will be glorified in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages.

The idea of elevation, an upward trend in the service, is in keeping with what we have been saying and prepares us for our heavenly part. The service of God as in the assembly will continue in its own heavenly way. And the service of God will resume its place in Israel as down here. Primarily it was committed to Israel, and it will again take its place in Israel restored;

whereas the service of the assembly will continue eternally.

R.R.T. So that what we began with in this series of meetings was the negative side of the subject, "My kingdom is not of this world". But now we have come to what essentially is positive.

J.T. Yes; it bears on our translation to heaven. The Lord purposes that we should become accustomed to elevation. The apostle Paul says, "I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago ... caught up to the third heaven ... into paradise" (2 Corinthians 12:2 - 4), as if to mark off the altitude of the assembly's place. And Ephesians contemplates that we who form the assembly are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

J.L.F. So the scripture in Hebrews would indicate how much "better" what we have come to is than what had obtained before.

J.T. Yes. So that Paul says, "We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh" (Philippians 3:3). That is christian service and it will continue essentially in eternity where God is to be glorified in the assembly throughout all generations of the age of ages. In christianity everything takes on the character of the best. Hebrews contemplates what is "better" than the Old Testament dispensations had.

E.G.M. Why is the priest so greatly stressed -- "We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens".

J.T. It is to call attention to Christ's personal greatness -- what the writer had specially spoken of: "We have such a one high priest who has sat down on the right hand of the throne of the greatness in the heavens". It is alluded to in Hebrews 1:3, "set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high". It is in each case to bring out His deity. He has the right or liberty to thus place Himself. Here

it specially brings out the greatness of His priesthood. It is "We have such a one high priest" -- we have Him. The superiority of christianity is implied. The Jewish system was not to be compared with it, or any other system; the greatest of them is not to be compared with what is inaugurated in heaven. It is what we have. In verse 26 of the previous chapter it is said, "such a high priest became us", pointing to the calling of the saints; what is on earth is not good enough, as we have seen, the Lord said, "my kingdom is not from hence". It is a heavenly system and it is needful, too, because of the dignity of the saints of the present dispensation.

M.D.F. The service now would be in sonship.

J.T. That is in accord with what we are saying. It is said in chapter 2 that God is bringing many sons to glory, the service is in that connection. So that "he that sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" (Hebrews 2:11). The service is on those lines; it is not only the great Priest but the great persons who are associated with Him and to whom He is Priest.

P.H. Would you say just a little more about "such a high priest became us"?

J.T. Well; it brings out the greatness of the saints in this dispensation. At Pentecost these great facts did not fully come out. They awaited Paul's ministry. This epistle stresses the superiority of christianity to the previous dispensation and even to the future dispensation; the "us" refers to christians; what attaches to them because of being subjects of divine purpose -- chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Christ only could be their High Priest.

C.A.M. Christ being the Priest, the greatness of the system is determined. Whatever religious system we are thinking about, if we know what kind of a priest it has, we know the character of a system.

J.T. Yes, it is said "as the people so the priest" (Hosea 4:9).

Think of needing, according to divine thoughts, such a glorious Priest -- no less than a divine Person who sets Himself down at the right hand of the throne on high!

C.A.M. It says in the last verse of chapter 7, "a Son perfected for ever". Speaking of Aaron and his sons in the Old Testament, where do you place that in the New Testament?

J.T. Well, it is alluded to formally in Peter, that christians are a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices. We are not really called priests in Hebrews but it is inferred in that we are sons. The sons are priests as the Great High Priest is Son. In Exodus Moses is directed to take Aaron his brother, "and his sons with him", that he might serve God as priest. Then Jehovah associates with Aaron his sons by name: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. The habiliments of Aaron are described first -- most gorgeous and varied; then the attire of the sons, much less gorgeous, but nevertheless garments of glory and beauty. The garments denote divine thoughts as to the persons of the priesthood. God is expressing His thoughts about us by the clothing He accords us. So it is with the bride, the Lamb's wife, she is dignified by the kind of clothing she is given to appear in -- to her is granted that she shall be arrayed in fine linen clean and bright, which is the righteousnesses of the saints. I think the garments indicate the dignity of the persons, the divine thoughts about them in that sense.

J.L.F. As to Hebrews 2:10, "bringing many sons to glory", is it right to raise the question as to whose sons they are, or the full character of them?

J.T. They are sons of God, we know from other scriptures. Their dignity is expressed in the family relationship in which they stand with God.

J.L.F. Then there is the thought of "Behold, I and the children which God has given me" (Hebrews 2:13).

J.T. Well, there it is "children", of course; we are not viewed as children in heaven, we are viewed as sons; the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven, they are firstborn, viewed as sons. Everyone there is a firstborn. It is a remarkable thing.

C.H.H. Would the naming of the sons of Aaron involve distinction in personality and individuality, everyone having a distinction?

J.T. I think that is how the truth stands. In Exodus 6 we get the priesthood, the genealogy of the tribes to Levi, indicating that the priesthood is in mind. It is proceeded with until the Spirit arrives at Levi. And then Aaron and Moses are born -- they being especially in view. Eleazar and Phinehas also have special notice, both having important places in the testimony. The priestly line ran down in that way.

H.G. That would not be necessary now, due to the fact that Christ is Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Is that the suggestion here?

J.T. Quite so; that is the point that is made. Aaron's priesthood is contrasted in chapter 7, that he was hindered by reason of death; but Christ as Son is Priest perfected for ever.

A.D.S. Have you not said that sonship underlies priesthood?

J.T. Well, it must; that is the idea.

A.D.S. One sees that in relation to the sons of Aaron, but how do You apply it to Aaron?

J.T. Sonship applied to Israel in the Old Testament. Aaron is a type of Christ, not because Aaron was a son, but that God took him up in that way. He told Moses to take Aaron his brother; as the brother of the mediator, he was typically Christ. In our epistle Christ is Apostle and High Priest of our confession -- the two offices in one Person; and the teaching bases that position on sonship. So that He is Son over the house. Moses was a servant in God's house.

M.D.F. Sons of Aaron would be what God is looking for now -- priesthood continued in sons.

J.T. Yes, each high priest would be son of Aaron, but Melchisedec is the great type of priesthood in Hebrews, and he lives. So there is no other high priest. Aaron is recognised as typifying Christ in function in our dispensation. Melchisedec is a type of Christ's personality as he is without father, mother, or genealogy; "having neither beginning of days nor end of life", he "abides a priest continually". But Melchisedec is not said to have any sons; so that we have to go to Aaron for the priesthood in its function in our dispensation, and it is a heavenly priesthood. Hebrews speaks of Christ being the Apostle and High Priest of our confession: this passage refers to Moses and Aaron, Christ combining in His Person both types.

C.A.M. If I understand, when you are thinking of the priestly service of Christ, Aaron comes into view, but as to the Person you are thinking of Melchisedec.

J.T. Yes. Melchisedec denotes the Person; One really a divine Person. But Aaron's service is a pattern of the service that Christ carries on now.

C.H.H. In 1 Chronicles 24 lots are cast for the priests, each one being named. Would that involve that personality would give a peculiar touch to the way they ministered?

J.T. No doubt each priest would have his own distinction, and each singer too; that opens up the economy under David, but Hebrews alludes to the economy under Moses; it is what was in the tabernacle. The tabernacle is said in our chapter to be a figure of heavenly things. It says, "If then indeed he were upon earth, he would not even be a priest, there being those who offer gifts according to the law, (who serve the representation and shadow of heavenly things, according as Moses was oracularly told when about to make the tabernacle; for See, saith He, that thou make

all things according to the pattern which has been shewn to thee in the mountain.)" verses 4, 5. It is the service in the tabernacle that is in mind in Hebrews, because we are viewed as on the way to heaven as they were on the way to the land, and the tabernacle was the pattern of heavenly things. It was God's house and the service was carried on there, and thus Aaron comes in. There were priests before Aaron, we are told in Exodus 19; there were priests and young men acting as priests, but it is when we have Christ prefigured in the Hebrew bondman as possessed of love in all its features, that we have the full thought of priesthood brought in. When the tabernacle is described on the mount, the pattern of it given to Moses, then there must be this priesthood. There must be approach to God and hence the need of priests. So that Aaron is introduced in chapter 28 to be in this capacity, and his sons as well; so that we have there the suggestion of the service going on at the present time. Christ is priest above, and we are priests, too: sons of Aaron, so to say, to offer up, as Peter says, spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God.

The priesthood around us in the various denominations is not what Scripture presents. In these, Jewish and heathen habiliments and practices supersede the spiritual qualities of Christ and the saints. Indeed if Christ, according to the description we have of Him, were literally here He would not be admitted in Rome, nor in the Anglican system; He would not qualify.

H.G. What is the distinction between chapter 2, where in the midst of the assembly Christ sings praises, and what we get here?

J.T. It is not much. Priesthood is involved there, verse 11 speaks of it. "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one". That would involve Aaron and his sons, only "those sanctified" are not called priests. God is bringing many sons to glory and the Captain of their salvation is perfected through suffering.

It became God that the Leader of those brought to glory should go through sufferings. So the passage goes on to say, "Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one;" that is, we are all of one kind and that qualifies us for this heavenly priesthood; we are the same as the Great Priest in that sense. Then He praises in the midst of the assembly. That is what we have before us to arrive at in this meeting -- how the service of God is carried on in the assembly.

H.G. Does that imply that if Christ is High Priest it involves others?

J.T. It involves that there are other priests, "all of one" with Him as stated in Hebrews. Peter says that we are "a holy priesthood ... acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 2:5).

P.H. In order to do that would you have to come out from all religious systems having official priests?

J.T. Certainly, true priesthood of christians would not be owned there, as already remarked; not that there are no christians there, but in those systems priesthood is according to man. Nominal christians are marked off as clergy and laity, whereas Scripture regards all true believers in Christ as priests, as already noted. According to Scripture, divine service can be found only where Christ is owned as High Priest and all true christians as priests.

P.H. Are you considering an ordained minister an official priest?

J.T. As in Rome, and the Anglican system and the Greek; yes. Indeed the idea of priesthood attaches generally to all so-called ordained ministers or clergymen. It is no question now of attacking them, but only to bring out the truth. As remarked before, if Christ were on earth He would not be a priest; He could not qualify. The high priesthood of Israel rejected Him and put Him to death.

D.R. What are the services of priesthood that we have been brought into?

J.T. That brings us down to what the apostle said in writing to the Philippians, that "we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh" (Philippians 3:3). That largely governs the principles of christian service. The word worship in this verse refers to the public service of God. The apostle states that christians' worship is by the Spirit of God -- not by a mere ritual. Our Priest has not been constituted according to law of fleshly commandment, but according to power of indissoluble life, Hebrews 7:16.

J.L.F. Do these three things mentioned in the verses read, a more excellent ministry, a better covenant, and better promises, have any bearing on service?

J.T. They do; they largely constitute and enrich the ministry. Paul enlarges on this subject in a striking way in 2 Corinthians 3. It is a ministry of liberty, including the new covenant; not of letter, but of spirit, which abounds in glory; a ministry in which those who have part in it behold the glory of the Lord, and are changed into the same image from glory to glory. Further, as in Galatians 4 and Romans 8, christians have received the Spirit of God's Son crying, "Abba, Father". Therefore, we should not be tied up as in the service; we should be free to address God as "Abba, Father".

That cry was heard from Gethsemane. Gethsemane is a place of pressure, but in spite of the pressure the Lord said, "Abba, Father". He was above the pressure. The assembly normally is not a place of pressure, the pressure is all gone; the heavens are opened to us; we are set up in the light of Christ up there, and He comes to us according to His promise, John 14:18.

E.G.M. Is that why we have a mediator mentioned

in our chapter -- to set us free and support us in the service?

J.T. Yes. He is "the mediator of a better covenant;" through Him the called "receive the promise of the eternal inheritance". This is to bring out the kind of people He would have in the service. It is a more excellent ministry, by so much as He is mediator of a better covenant, which is established on the footing of better promises. This all enters into our part in assembly service. We should not be hampered or tied up, but in liberty; the Lord's supper is intended to liberate us. The bread and the cup are a dual testimony, bearing upon us to set us free in the assembly, the new covenant being included, as we have seen.

J.S.C. What is the distinction between the High Priest and the Minister of the holy places?

J.T. High Priest is that He is high above all; He is also called a Great Priest; it is a commensurate idea; He is great morally. He will set you free; He is not harsh or demanding. As you come into contact with Christ you prove how great He is morally. He is High Priest over the house of God. It is an official matter that He takes on the service of God in the true tabernacle, as Aaron took it on in the old. In order to understand the Aaronic service you have to understand Leviticus. Exodus is the setting up of the system including the typical dignity and glory of the high priest, but in Leviticus God is in the tabernacle, there to be approached, and the priesthood is there that you may approach. The sons of Aaron were to serve the worshippers, and some of them might be very poor. In Eli's time they were very low morally, they were wicked. But look at the kind of priesthood we have! So we are to be entirely free from everything that would hinder us to approach God. "Let us approach with a true heart, in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:22).

C.H.H. Although worshipping the Father is not

mentioned in Hebrews, does what you say involve the framework and basis for it?

J.T. Yes. Hebrews is really very initial because it is dealing with Jewish christians who were in danger of giving up christianity, and the writer is endeavouring to push them on, holding out to them with great vividness the great and glorious things set up in Christ in heaven. If they gave up what was presented, they would go back to apostasy and utter darkness for ever. This epistle, therefore, is devoted to the truth of the opened heavens, as if to say, There is nothing better, why give it up? There is nothing better; indeed there is nothing else. Going back is eternal ruin.

D.R. What did Christ offer?

J.T. He offered Himself. "Every high priest is constituted for the offering both of gifts and sacrifices; whence it is needful that this one also should have something which he may offer" (Hebrews 8:3). This chapter and the two following up to the end of Hebrews 10:18 show the greatness of what He offered. In Hebrews 9:1 - 10 we have the tabernacle alluded to. "The first therefore" (meaning the tabernacle) "also indeed had ordinances of service, and the sanctuary, a worldly one. For a tabernacle was set up; the first, in which were both the candlestick and the table and the exposition of the loaves, which is called Holy; but after the second veil a tabernacle which is called Holy of holies, having a golden censer, and the ark of the covenant, covered round in every part with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, and the rod of Aaron that had sprouted, and the tables of the covenant; and above over it the cherubim of glory shadowing the mercy-seat; concerning which it is not now the time to speak in detail".

"Now these things being thus ordered, into the first tabernacle the priests enter at all times, accomplishing the services; but into the second, the high priest only,

once a year, not without blood, which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people: the Holy Spirit shewing this, that the way of the holy of holies has not yet been made manifest while as yet the first tabernacle has its standing; the which is an image for the present time, according to which both gifts and sacrifices, unable to perfect as to conscience him that worshipped, are offered, consisting only of meats and drinks and divers washings, ordinances of flesh, imposed until the time of setting things right".

Then we come to Christ's service: "But Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer's ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?" verses 11 - 14.

There it is: He had something to offer. He offered Himself.

D.R. So that would be one feature of the present dispensation as compared with the past, that in the past the priests had certain sacrifices to offer. The basis of the present dispensation is that Christ has offered Himself.

J.T. That is right, so that we have the basis for an eternal inheritance. The passages show that He is set up as Man in eternal relations with God, in relation to the true tabernacle. That is the great point for us to lay hold of now. The old tabernacle was a type of heavenly things, and that is christianity. We serve in the antitype, the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not of this creation; it is a heavenly thing.

E.G.M. What constitutes the "true" and "perfect" tabernacle?

J.T. It is in contrast to the material or physical structure. It is the great moral system of things in which God is apprehended in Christ, and in which through Him we approach God.

C.A.M. It is a heavenly thing and we are in the enjoyment of it now. How far in your mind does this glorious service go on? According to Ephesians eternity seems to surround all. Does this service enter into eternity?

J.T. Quite so. We have noted in our chapter that if Christ were on earth He would not be a priest; His priesthood awaited His going into heaven. It is not that He did not exercise priesthood in a true sense while here below, because it is said in chapter 9 that He came in connection with this new system, "Christ being come high priest of the good things to come, by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation)" verse 11. We have to consider what the Spirit of God is speaking about. Christ being come -- that is the incarnation. He owned provisionally the temple at Jerusalem, but He did not present Himself there as an official priest. Nevertheless He was a real priest, and the idea of the true tabernacle was in His heart, in fact, He was it Himself. Still, as I said, He recognised the temple. In His boyhood He went up to Jerusalem with His parents to the convocation, and He was found in the temple at the age of twelve. He could not go into the holy places, because He was not of the tribe of Levi; He was of the tribe of Judah. But the true Aaron was there notwithstanding. Of the ten lepers who were cleansed, one came back glorifying God and failing at the Lord's feet gave Him thanks, Luke 17:15, 16. That was in principle the true tabernacle. To the blind man that received his sight (John 9:35) the Lord says, "Dost thou believe on the

Son of God?" He is introducing the new tabernacle, not, of course, yet formally. The man says, "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe?" He was ready for the new thing. The Lord says, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord; and he did him homage" verses 36 - 38. The Lord had already said to the Jews, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up ... . He spoke of the temple of his body". As Christ was risen from among the dead by the Father's glory, the true tabernacle became more and more indicated, although, of course, the full thought awaited His ascension and the Spirit come down, forming the assembly. It should be remembered that the first day of the week was inaugurated by the Father's glory. The greatest thing in the sense of glory began the first day of the week. The Father raised His Son from the dead. On that day the Lord joined two that were going to Emmaus, and He opened up wonderful things to them. He began at Moses and in all the prophets expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. Doubtless He would refer to Moses and Aaron as seen in Exodus; He was the true Apostle and High Priest. Then He would go to Leviticus and so on. Suppose He came to Psalm 22:22 -- "I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee". He would say, I am the Person spoken of there. Their hearts began to burn. And then He went into the house and sat at table, He took the bread blessed and, having broken it, gave it to them. He was Head -- He took the house-father's place. In full effect He is Son over the house of God. The two were being impressed with what was later unfolded through the apostle Paul. The Lord was impressing their understanding, and then they recognised Him and He disappeared from them.

They went back to Jerusalem, and as they gathered

with the disciples and were telling them of what happened, and how He was made known to them in the breaking of bread, the Lord stood in their midst. Then He opened their understanding and instructed them, led them out to Bethany, and having lifted up His hands, He blessed them. And He was carried up into heaven. They worshipped Him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. The true tabernacle was in mind in all this. The Spirit came down, and later Paul by His power unfolds the truth of the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man.

C.A.M. I think that is very impressive.

J.T. The book of Acts would teach us as to the various parts of the tabernacle set up, but it was a pattern of things in the heavens; it was a heavenly system, and so the vessel comes down to Peter. It comes out of heaven and goes back into heaven.

R.R.T. In regard to the Spirit, I would like to ask as to Hebrews 9:14, "How much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?" It is a remarkable verse; we have there the Spirit, Christ, God, and the saints. What is the force of that word, "Who by the eternal Spirit offered himself"?

J.T. This point begins, as we have already remarked, in verse 11, that is, that Christ came in relation to certain things: "by the better and more perfect tabernacle not made with hand, (that is, not of this creation,) nor by blood of goats, and calves, but by his own blood, has entered in once for all into the holy of holies, having found an eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer's ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit

offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?"

We have already enlarged on the better and more perfect tabernacle. Then Christ also came in relation to the means of atonement -- that is, by His own blood; "having found", through it, "an eternal redemption". And then the writer proceeds to add the great thought of the purifying of our conscience from dead works to worship the living God, saying, "how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God".

R.R.T. In your word this morning you brought in the important thought that the assembly cannot function at all to the pleasure of God apart from the Spirit. And here we have the great thought that the Lord offered Himself to God by the eternal Spirit. It would mark this dispensation, that if the assembly is to function it must be in the light of the Lord offering Himself by the eternal Spirit; and our worship must also be in the Spirit.

J.T. That is exactly what the apostle said: "we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God" (Philippians 3:3) -- not by outward forms. And the Lord Himself had already said, "Ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. ... the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; ... God is a spirit and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth" (John 4:21 - 24). For completion of the new divine system and the service involved in it the apostles had to wait for the Spirit. Being assembled with the disciples before ascending, the Lord commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but await the promise of the Father. Hence the sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind. It was the Spirit m power coming in. Thus the service of the new

tabernacle should proceed, and that is what, through the mercy of God, has been recovered to us and what we are engaged with week by week. It will go on eternally. Ephesians 3:21 says, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages".

The passage in Ephesians was read to point out that the service of God in the assembly rises. Paul was caught up as far as the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2). I believe that is an allusion to creature limitations. We do not enter into uncreated conditions; the Lord Jesus did, He "ascended up above all the heavens" (Ephesians 4:10), which is an infinite thought. It refers to an uncreated condition that we can never touch. Ephesians has "the heavenlies", conveying what is characteristically heavenly as to place. Paul in 2 Corinthians is specific as to elevation. He was caught up to the third heaven -- as far as that. But he says he was caught up into paradise, and he heard unutterable things said. So that in Ephesians 2 we are said to have been raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. It is the plural. I had thought only of adding these remarks as giving the fulness of the truth before us, completing the whole subject.

LEADERSHIP (1)

Exodus 2:11 - 22; Acts 7:30 - 36

J.T. I was thinking about leadership. The basic thought in mind is taken from the prophet Micah: Moses, Aaron and Miriam being sent before Israel in the wilderness. It was thought that we might look at these three leaders and then at others that are linked with them: Eleazar, and Joshua, five in all, who had to do with the great typical movement of God involving leadership in a most definite way. No servant in the Old Testament has more space given to him in history than Moses, so we have to be selective in our remarks about him in the time allotted to us. His childhood and boyhood are known very well to us, so that we shall hardly need to touch on the early stages of his history, but rather on what applies to him in his service or leadership.

The account of Aaron's history is comparatively brief and Miriam's is much briefer. Eleazar is important and so is Joshua. It is a question of skill to allot to each his place. Moses comes first, being the greatest servant of the Old Testament, a full type of Christ as prophet. He speaks of himself as a type of Christ, that God would raise up a prophet after him "like unto me". The Spirit of God honours him as being allowed to appear on the mount speaking to the Lord.

What is in mind first is to refer to his decision when he came to Midian, in view of the much service, and the many servants today, for whom we may give thanks. We might look at the definite features that marked Moses as moving, before he is inducted into the service. He had grown up to be a man of forty years of age, in a position of great distinction as a man of this world. He had of himself made a definite move: "And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went

out to his brethren and looked on their burdens" (Exodus 2:11).

A.P.T. In Hebrews 11 it is said that he "chose".

J.T. Yes; he reached his decision after his experience in the world. We are told that he was taught in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was mighty in words and deeds; but the definite point is in his decision -- the stress as to definiteness. The first point is definiteness at one's own volition, and at one's own cost, so that he came into persecution.

J.D. Do you think that there is secret soul history seen in Moses in the words, "when Moses was grown;" that there had been a previous education in relation to the work of God in his soul before he revealed himself to his brethren?

J.T. Well, there must have been; but it is recorded as on his side, the movement is directly from himself. In Hebrews faith is stressed, "By faith Moses, when he had become great", and the skill and method of the Spirit in the record would be to help other servants as to what we do from our own side, so that the credit is to us. God retires, as it were, if He has a certain thing in mind and if He wishes to set out a certain model for us. The record has that in view. So that it reads, "And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown". Hebrews 11:24 - 26, referring to this part of the history says, "By faith Moses, when he had become great, refused to be called son of Pharaoh's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction along with the people of God than to have the temporary pleasure of sin; esteeming the reproach of the Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt, for he had respect to the recompense". It is all put on his side.

I thought that would be the lesson for us to begin with. An allusion is made to his place in Egypt and to his refusal; the word "refused" is used, then "choosing" and then "esteeming", and the root explanation, that

"he had respect to the recompense". It has an application to our early experience and how we come to take part in the work of God, and begin to take part in the service of God. It is a question as to whether we are definite, fully estimating where we have been, or we shall surely go back to it; and choosing at our own expense, knowing that it involves loss but having respect to the recompense. This line of action intimates that the service of God cannot add to me as a man in this world, nor is it intended to add to my material circumstances. I believe that is what this chapter teaches.

A.E.H. The Spirit of God is crediting Moses with having arrived at the sober estimate of Egypt; and he is ready now to subordinate that to what God is to get.

J.T. Yes. He took full advantage of the choosing and estimating which he had the opportunity of testing out. He was mighty in words and deeds. He had evidently acquired what was available to such a young man and deliberately gave it up on the principle of appraisal, knowing what the consequences would be, or he would be likely to revert to it again. It is one of the most important things in service.

Ques. Would looking on their burdens have a part in this?

J.T. That shows what a man he was; he could take account of the sufferings of others, anticipating, without knowing it, what God was going to give him to do. God looked on the burdens of His people too, and heard their groans. He is in accord with the divine current at the moment. If we are not in the divine current in some sense, we shall be running up against elements that God is using, not knowing what we are doing. We want to come into the divine current.

C.H.H. In the sovereignty of God could what he was taught in Egypt be used in service?

J.T. No doubt it was, but in his own estimation it

was not of much account. He protested to Jehovah that he could not speak, yet he was mighty in words and deeds earlier.

R.A. Does "when he was grown" suggest a point reached in his history?

J.T. That is what is meant; it was when he was forty years old. His life is divided into three forty-year periods. We are beginning with the forty-first year. He is entering on the second forty years of his life.

Rem. What you said about being in the current is very important. Leadership in any measure involves that all should be under the Lord's control, that we should not get in one another's way.

J.T. I thought it would be helpful to notice that he came into the current of things. Apollos was an independent work of God. He went from Alexandria and arrived at Ephesus where Paul's greatest work was to take place. He was not altogether clear about what was current, but he came into contact with two who could tell him "of the way of God more exactly". Aquila and Priscilla showed him the way of God more exactly, which he evidently accepted. Apollos encountered no difficulties; he was thoroughly in the current of the work of God. Although some of the Corinthians would set him up against Paul, yet there is no indication whatever that he encouraged that. He was not minded to go to Corinth, as though he would not countenance opposition to Paul.

J.D. Do you think that the features of leadership begin to show themselves when one hears the brethren?

J.T. I think it calls for a feeling man. The work of God requires one who feels how things are. The Spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters in Genesis 1, which is a good indication of what enters into leadership, taking into account all the conditions that you have to deal with and feeling them.

J.D. I was thinking of the Lord in Luke's gospel

when He saw the city, He wept because of what would befall it, involving deep feelings.

J.T. So Nehemiah is a very feeling man. He wept when he heard of conditions at Jerusalem; he grieved so much that it was apparent before the king. That is a good beginning. When he arrives at Jerusalem, he goes out at night and surveys the conditions of the city.

J.D. Mordecai cried with a loud and bitter cry when the judgment went forth against his people.

J.T. So Moses "went out to his brethren and looked on their burdens". Then he would put two of his brethren right, as we have often noted. "Why art thou smiting thy neighbour?" That is a good feature because there is so much smiting. Stephen comments on this. The one who was wrong said, "Who established thee ruler and judge over us?" (Acts 7:27).

J.D. Is it to be noted in this question of leadership that forty years ago the boy wept? That would be carried forward; the Spirit of God would take notice of all the feelings in the boy.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. We might suffer at the hands of the world, and that is bad enough, an Egyptian smiting a Hebrew; but two brothers quarrelling is very serious.

J.T. This incident shows how difficult it is to deal with such a circumstance, but yet it should be dealt with.

A.E.H. He looked at their burdens; it is the burdens that cause deep feelings and sorrow.

J.T. As we were saying, that is an indication that he is already in the current of the mind of God, an important thing. There is always a current, God is always operating.

J.T.Jr. Being delivered from the Egyptian current would be the beginning for us. The river is in the previous paragraph. Moses as delivered from the

influence of nature is able to move in the current of God's mind.

J.T. He was drawn out of the river by Pharaoh's daughter. His name means that. But then, the current of Egypt was there in Pharaoh's house, and it brings out all the more his power of decision in leaving that. It is the deliberate decision that we ought to notice; knowing just what he has left, and in some sense knowing what he is coming into. He had not long to wait to discover what he was coming into: firstly, the burdens that were there, and secondly, the dispositions of the persons he was seeking to serve and the refusal on their part to be served. In looking over Stephen's comments we have a side-light on the verses read: "This Moses, whom they refused, saying, Who made thee ruler and judge? him did God send to be a ruler and deliverer with the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush" (Acts 7:35). And then an emphatic he, in "He led them out". He is this man. Whatever the attitude of the persons, he is God's man and he will come into the thought that was in his heart. The right thought was in his heart. So after a decision in the service we have to make up our minds for opposition from the brethren as well as from Pharaoh. Opposition comes from the brethren first.

C.DeB. The brethren misunderstood him. They did not understand the motives really that he had before him.

J.T. That is what it states. Why did they not understand? Would they have any knowledge of who he was? Why should he be coming out to them? It is worth while inquiring into it and not to set ourselves up against such a man. Let us look into the matter.

Rem. It was the man that was in the wrong who became the spokesman in this verse.

J.T. We may be sure that as there is refusal of help it is on the part of the wrong-doer. The man who

is in the current of the mind of God is ready to be helped. The lesson is, make full inquiry before refusing assistance.

H.B. It says that Moses wrought signs and wonders in the land of Egypt. Is there something that answers to that in our day?

J.T. There are literally signs and wonders according to Mark. "These signs shall follow", the Lord told the eleven, but not simply because they were apostles. Indeed they are not called apostles in the passage alluded to. "And these signs shall follow those that have believed: in my name they shall cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they should drink any deadly thing it shall not injure them; they shall lay hands upon the infirm, and they shall be well" (Mark 16:17, 18). That is the sort of thing. With Mark it is a question of believing, "those that have believed". In our service there should be faith.

J.S. Do we have leadership added to this, the thought of "ruler and judge"?

J.T. The point is that what they needed he accomplished. They said, "Who made thee ruler and judge?" but "him did God send to be a ruler and deliverer". He did the work. That is the test. Is the brother doing the work? The apostle says, "he worketh the work of the Lord as I also do". That is the question, Is he doing the work?

C.A.M. Would you say that, after the decision is made, the course that things take to work the matter out will be in the hands of God? Really a state of things develops that Moses would not have chosen at all.

J.T. The successive steps bring out in principle what a servant may look for. Pharaoh heard of this political incident and sought to slay Moses, but Moses fled from before Pharaoh and dwelt in the land of

Midian. It is said in Hebrews, in the passage I alluded to already, that he did not fear the wrath of the king. "By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he persevered, as seeing him who is invisible". The rulers and the powers that be may turn against us, and we may be overwhelmed. So that all these features of the servants of old are recorded for our use in service. Therefore we are told here that Moses fled from before Pharaoh; but the Spirit of God in Hebrews says that he did not fear, because that would be a question of his state. The fleeing is not a question of his state, but the fearing is. Fear would damage many and render them useless for service. "Not fearing the wrath of the king; for he persevered, as seeing him who is invisible". He saw Him who is invisible, that is the way it is recorded. There is a greater than the king, which would alleviate my fears so that I can go on. It was a long way to Midian but Moses knew what to do; he was learning all the way. He was not overcome by the fear of Pharaoh. It says in verse 23, "And it came to pass during those many days, that the king of Egypt died". God deals with him from whom he fled. In the meantime he is occupied with Him who is invisible, a very important point for us. Otherwise we shall not be available.

Ques. Must we therefore leave the slaying of the Egyptian to God in His governmental dealings?

J.T. Leave the fear of such obstacles too.

A.E.H. In the land of Midian he sits by the well, serving in a limited way, but still serving.

J.T. That is the next thing. The question of fear that might be in his heart is settled, because according to the Spirit of God there is not any. He fears God, that is, he sees Him who is invisible. He sees God in all this. Ultimately he goes back to Egypt after God deals with Pharaoh, but in the meantime he is not idle. He sat by the well and very soon work appeared before

him in these women coming with their father's sheep. It says, "And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs, to water their father's flock. And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses rose and helped them, and watered their flock". He is not using his physical power to deal with the situation at all, which is a beautiful trait in a servant. He helped the women. The women represent weakness, but the Spirit joins itself to our weakness in devoted service. They are watering their father's sheep. He did not attack the shepherds. They drove the women away, "but Moses rose and helped them, and watered their flock". He joins himself to what the women were doing and he is successful -- the flock is watered. There is something done and done well. It is a very commendable piece of work over against what the shepherds did.

J.H.E. "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah" (Zechariah 4:6).

J.T. It is a beautiful trait of the Spirit of God to join itself to our weakness. We are doing the thing, but He is helping us. Here it is this generous trait in Moses, and we shall see it in Eleazar this afternoon. It is a question of a servant developing and coming fully into his service. He is not in it yet, he is not put into it immediately, but this is happening in the meantime.

E.G.McA. Would this acceptance of limitations by Moses in going to Midian bring out the development of what was in the man; and when his education had reached the right point God removed the opposition?

J.T. That is what comes out. It was when the time came; verse 23 says, "it came to pass during those many days". Moses is going through something, but then God is acting governmentally at the same time. "It came to pass during those many days, that the king of Egypt died". It required years, though he would

die in a minute, but he must go, for God is saying that Pharaoh is in his way, an obstructer. He just dies in the ordinary way, no doubt, but God has His eye on him that he might be removed.

C.H.H. Would a similar case be seen in the history of the assembly in Acts 12:24 where Herod withstood the testimony and persecuted the saints? But he dies, and then "the word of God grew and spread itself".

J.T. And so in the case of Sennacherib when he defied Jehovah and His people, as recorded in 2 Kings 19. God had His eye on that man. It might be slow work, we are not told exactly; it might have taken twenty years after the 185,000 Assyrians were slain by the angel before Sennacherib was slain. That is, God keeps His eye on a thing -- during these many days. God has not withdrawn His eye from this thing that is going on in the world today, because His people are involved. Our prayers go on. Moses prayed, as to conditions in Egypt, and maybe Jethro. It is a question of what God is doing in "those many days;" during them the king of Egypt dies.

E.G.McA. This time was exercising for Moses. He had to develop patience and wait on God for instructions.

J.T. The idea of this chapter is that Moses is content; he "consented to remain with the man" -- no doubt contrary to his natural thoughts. While in Midian he might well revert back to the times he had in Egypt; but he consented to dwell with the man, not that he felt that it was any great advantage to him -- there is no evidence that Zipporah was particularly attractive. But God is keeping His eye on Pharaoh all the time.

J.D. Jethro says to his daughters, "where is he?" Would there be inquiry as to a man like that?

J.T. Quite so. You wonder at the women; they

are not like ordinary women. There must have been a lack of womanly interest in them. Here is a man that has delivered them and watered their flock, and they do nothing about him. Jethro is a good-minded man, a man in whom there is something of God. He is concerned rightly about Moses, not for getting a husband for one of his daughters. But still the mind of God went on, and there is the mention of the birth of Gershom. That is the thing to notice. "I have been a sojourner in a foreign land", Moses says. There is not much said of Zipporah, but still she is a type of the church; but the point here is the history of Moses. It is this child called Gershom who reminds Moses that he is "a sojourner in a foreign land". The servant has to experience the sense of being in a foreign land -- it is not congenial at all, but he was there forty years and worked well for his father-in-law. As we have been saying, he was taking on the traits of the Spirit of God. He sat by the well -- a type of the Spirit of God -- over against what he learned in Egypt. He began to rely on the Spirit, and the effect began to come out immediately. Instead of driving the shepherds away, he helps the women; he takes on the shepherd character. He would not have been taught to be a shepherd by the Egyptians. He is learning the spiritual side and throwing off the natural -- the Egyptian acquirements -- "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts". The apostle Paul is a full example of this. He says, "For I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Corinthians 2:2). That is where the Spirit adds help to our weakness. The Lord was crucified in weakness, but He lives by the power of God. The servant has to come to that, that he does not have to rely on his natural acquirements.

C.A.M. The paragraph closes with sonship. Would you extend the thought to Romans 8, that there

is a wonderful result always in being in accord with the Spirit's activities?

J.T. I think the first effect in his own mind as to children is the sense of being in a foreign land. I am not going to build myself up here, he would say. God says to Baruch in Jeremiah 45:5, Do not build yourself up here; "Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not". He is just a foreigner. Some have experienced that. In a foreign country there is usually a feeling of disadvantage -- Gershom is that; but Eliezer is another thing. He is not mentioned here, but in the wilderness, Exodus 18:4 says, "and the name of the other, Eliezer", which means 'help from God'. He says, "For the God of my father has been my help, and has delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh".

C.A.M. I was struck with what you said about his not acting against the shepherds with violence, but instead helping the women; and this being typical of what the Spirit does -- helping us in our weaknesses.

J.T. There are these two sons in Moses' house. One is, "I have been a sojourner in a foreign land", and the other, "the God of my father has been my help, and has delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh". The power of God in a man's house -- that brings out what a man ought to be. So it is not what he learned in Egypt that enables him to execute the service entrusted to him; it is the help which he gets from God.

G.A.T. What did you have in mind about being in a foreign land?

J.T. In a moral sense, you do not identify yourself with the country in which you are. Moses did not become a citizen of Midian, he remained an alien and called his son by that name. Why did he call his son by that name? Because he was a foreigner. He was there under God's government and accepted the alienation involved.

H.B. Is that why as to Eliezer he says, "the God of my father has been my help"?

J.T. Yes, you might ask Moses, Why did you call him Eliezer? Because, he says, 'God is my help'. In the same way, I do not identify myself with a trades union, I trust God. It is a question of the state of my household. The names Moses gave to his sons were a constant testimony in his house.

Rem. The absence of these features in a household would greatly weaken leadership in the head of it, although otherwise right.

J.T. You have to accept that it is the government of God. If we accept it humbly, God will not forsake us. These two boys in the house would be a witness to the father's testimony.

F.N.W. "Esteeming the reproach of the Christ", would that have a bearing on this matter of his household?

J.T. It was a definite estimate of the reproach of Christ. Reproach attached to the name of these sons of Moses. He professed to be dependent on God -- helped by Him and not by political affiliation. And also he professed to be "a sojourner in a foreign land". This involved reproach and natural disadvantage.

A.E.H. Why, in this attitude of strangership, did Moses fail to circumcise his son?

J.T. That was a defect clearly. Evidently it was Zipporah who objected to it, but it was his responsibility, just as it is now the responsibility of every head to baptise his household in faith.

A.R. Paul says to Timothy that an overseer should conduct his own house well.

C.H.H. Would the fact that these two names are mentioned in Exodus 18 suggest that Moses had retained these impressions through his forty years of experience?

J.T. Clearly. His family is mentioned where he

is in the very height of his work. God is actually using him, and he is devoting himself to the people; he is sitting there all day answering questions without complaint. It comes in there strikingly, and Jethro, too, shines there. So the facts would show that Moses' visiting Midian, and his relation with Jethro, was not detrimental to him, but God overruled it for blessing. As there is faithfulness, things that may seem to be detrimental in our marriages God will overrule for good beyond what we may expect. We have little idea how God loves a true servant, a man like Moses or David. David says, Jehovah chose me because He liked me; likeableness in him as made king is referred to.

A.P.T. "Hast thou considered my servant Job?" (Job 1:8).

J.T. Job had a place with God, although he had much to learn. God had His eye on him as His servant and would reach His end with him. Jehovah honoured him under this designation at the end as at the beginning. In view of the history that intervened this is most touching and should assure all who seek to serve God.

A.B. Do verses 21, 22 stand over against the end of verse 12, "He smote the Egyptian"? That was the end of that exercise, but in verses 21, 22 there is great fruitfulness as typically having the Spirit.

J.T. That is the thing to see, how God oversees the history of His servant in giving him this son and then another one; and how he links the latter with God -- "For the God of my father has been my help, and has delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh". What I think we should see is that normally the servant is peculiarly loved by God and occurrences favourable to him will come about. Moses is loved by God and God will do things for him.

E.G.McA. What do we learn from Moses' patience in the school of God for forty years?

J.T. He "consented to remain with the man", that is in keeping with his decision; he was a man who had made up his mind. He bows to the situation and God accepted that and honoured it. Patience in a servant is one of the greatest things.

J.T.Jr. He was not concerned about wages. He leaves that matter with God.

J.T. That comports with 'Eliezer' and God honours him. Jethro would not be an unfeeling man. There is no question here about wages, but Jacob made much of it. His father-in-law changed his wages ten times. How unfeeling we are -- taking advantage as to natural things of being in fellowship! That is what happened with Jacob and Laban. There is no question with Moses of wages. There is in this respect dignity attached to him. Unionism, in which some christians take refuge, is abhorrent to the mind of God, and it should be to the saints too.

C.H.H. The apostle Paul says, "I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls" (2 Corinthians 11:15).

J.T. Quite so.

J.S. Would the forty years be a question of slow experience with God?

J.T. That is it; he is qualifying for the third chapter. We may have to touch on Moses again; we cannot leave out the third forty years, for that is where the full fruition is seen of all this experience. Even though things are against us, decision is the great point. He consented to dwell with the man.

Ques. Is there a link between the second forty years and the third forty years? Moses returned with his sons and the staff of God in his hand.

J.T. We will begin with that next time. The first thing in the third chapter is the vision. He led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of God -- to Horeb. That is a fine touch. And the angel of Jehovah appeared to him.

LEADERSHIP (2)

Exodus 3:1 - 6, 11 - 15; Exodus 4:21 - 23; Exodus 32:11 - 14; Exodus 33:7 - 11

J.T. This chapter begins the third phase of Moses' life, his third forty years. Undoubtedly, the one hundred and twenty years of Moses' life is intended, among other things, to afford God an opportunity to show His precious interest in His servants' histories. The third phase of Moses' life is the most fruitful one, the one to which divine honours belonged. The second chapter contemplates his history, as it were, by itself; it is not what God did in him, but what he did himself; spiritual history, however, is clearly marked. God was working in Aaron at the same time, but we hear nothing about him until he appears in his eighty-third year. We hope to dwell on that later.

Now in the third chapter God is having to say to Moses directly, and He brings out openly the results in Moses of his earlier experience. Applied to us this is when a brother's works show what he is secretly; he proves it openly, purchasing to himself a good degree. It is himself. But in this third phase God is working with Moses having in mind the great work He designed for him, beginning with this extraordinary experience of the bush. What transpires brings out the effect of the experience and education of the previous forty years. He turns aside to see what Jehovah would present to him. Thus his name is called twice as if he had been acquiring distinction in heaven. "And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush, and said, Moses, Moses! ... And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob". The time had come for the coming great servant to become definitely acquainted with God. And it is "I AM THAT I AM". It is God in His essential Being, as this and subsequent scriptures

show, who is revealing Himself to Moses, and who is sending him to the children of Israel, and who is sending him to Pharaoh.

C.H.H. Would Acts 13 where the apostle Paul gets his commission at Antioch correspond to Moses being committed definitely to service?

J.T. Yes. Earlier history had been the making time for the apostle. The fruit of this is now apparent. His novitiate was completed -- applying to the five year period of the Levite. He and Barnabas had served in the assembly for a whole year. Their work was honoured of God. The disciples were first called christians at Antioch. We have an allusion to the assembly there, which was the fruit of their service, and five names are given as distinct in the place. The Holy Spirit is free to act now and send him out. There is a definite sending forth by the Spirit. "Moses", we are told, "tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian". It is the second phase of his history. "And he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God". That is the point to which the flock was led. Many would lead elsewhere, into blind alleys, the party-making principle would be that, but he led to the mountain of God -- to Horeb. The angel of Jehovah appeared to him in the midst of the thorn-bush, and the thorn-bush burned with fire but it was not being consumed. "And Moses said, Let me now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt. And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see". That is the point. He is now ready for this great event. John says as to the Lord, "we have contemplated his glory".

J.D. Would you say a word as to the difference between Horeb and Sinai in connection with the question of leadership?

J.T. I think Horeb is grace. Sinai involves the terrors of the law, that is, what God is in His severity.

We read in Romans of the goodness and the severity of God. The goodness, I think, is seen in Horeb and the severity in Sinai. They are in the same range of mountains, but I refer to the way Scripture presents the facts.

J.D. Would the bush burning represent Israel?

J.T. Yes. It is not consumed. The burning went on and the bush was not consumed. God Himself was there -- "the good will of him that dwelt in the bush" (Deuteronomy 33:16). God was dwelling there. That is wonderful. Israel will appear in the future after all the extraordinary vicissitudes of God's discipline as not consumed, as the Israel of God.

R.W.S. Is it a question of the yield in quality now in Moses? Actually, it was only one-third of his life.

J.T. Well, I think it shows how much making is needed before we have the full result in any servant. This third phase had all the honours that could enter into it, all the decorations, all the loveliness too, for God was increasingly appreciative of Moses. He says in Numbers 12 that there was no one like him, that he "was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth". Even prophets did not have his distinction. Jehovah says in Numbers 12:6, "If there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream. Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold". A most unique distinction! It is not written for Moses; it is written for our sakes that we might aspire to acquire a place with God. God intimates that we all may be favourites. Each of us may discern what distinction he has with God.

J.D. What do you see in verse 3? That must have been most acceptable to God. He says, "Let me now turn aside and see this great sight". Does that fall in

line with what you said this morning as to being in the current of divine operations?

J.T. Quite so. It is pursuant of what we had; and now he is in the very centre of divine things. He turns aside to see what he calls "this great sight" -- why the thorn-bush was not burnt.

Ques. You are linking up this idea of leadership with moral qualities, are you not? Will you distinguish for us between leadership and gift?

J.T. That is a good point. We may have leadership without gift. It is really more a matter of moral quality -- by which others are influenced. It is the man, the person himself, that comes under God's notice as pleasurable to Him, as conforming to Christ, whom He would put forward among His people to lead them in the right way. At Nazareth, Luke 4, it was the Lord's manner, not the exercise of gift. He did not say much; having read a passage, He commented on the scripture, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your ears". What the hearers noticed was "the words of grace that were coming out of his mouth;" His whole manner, and the proceedings. That is, I think, what affords leadership -- what one is. In the synagogue the Lord was conscious that He was anointed.

Ques. I notice that sometimes where there is evidence of gift, it is supposed that leadership is there too, necessarily. That would not be the case, would it?

J.T. No. You feel the vessel is marred unless there is likeability in it. He becomes endeared to God and to the saints by his manner. Paul says, "my ways as they are in Christ" (1 Corinthians 4:17). Timothy, his own child in the Lord, would put the Corinthians in mind of these ways.

A.A.T. In Moses' time there was one leader. Is it right to think there is more than one leader at a time?

J.T. We began this morning with three leaders in

Moses' time. Micah says God sent before Israel, Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. That was the idea exactly. It was not that they walked before them literally, but morally. They were all at least eighty years of age before God began to use them, so he is telling us that God took great pains with the leaders He provided. God led Israel "like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron" (Psalm 77:20). Miriam led with them as we see in Micah.

A.P.T. It says in Judges 5:2, "leaders led in Israel".

J.T. That fits into this. It is a question, not simply of being a leader, but of leading.

G.A.T. Does the eighty years have anything to do with it?

J.T. God is indicating that being so old before being used, they had been long in His school. We have a life-size picture of Moses, not of the other two. Aaron is not mentioned until he is eighty-three and Miriam, if she is the one mentioned in Exodus 2, is over ninety. I think that God has in mind to impress us with His care in preparing people to lead us, so that we are to respect them for the Lord's sake and for their own sake. "Remember your leaders", and then, "obey your leaders;" (Hebrews 13:7, 17). That is, remember the past ones and obey the present ones.

J.D. "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith" (Hebrews 13:7). It is largely a question of state and conduct.

A.E.H. Do you attach emphasis to the personal pronoun "I" at the end of verse 4 -- the sense that he had in his own soul of being pleasurable to God?

J.T. He answers the definite word, "And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses!" His answer is, "Here am I". The repetition of his name would impress him with the fact that he

was divinely thought of. "Moses, Moses!" Great personal history entered into that definite address.

Ques. Would Moses' feelings be involved in the fact that God was saying to him that He was continuing in their midst? Would that come out in the thirty-second chapter?

J.T. Yes. God is now impressing him with the importance of the people, what they were to Him. In the thirty-second chapter Moses shows that he values the people, and God listens to him on that account. Here the people are in Jehovah's mind and He is impressing Moses with this fact. In verse 11, "Moses said to God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? And he said, For I will be with thee; and this shall be the sign to thee that I have sent thee: when thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover to Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you. This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations". He is impressing Moses with the people and their importance in His mind. There is not time to go into it all. Jehovah goes on in verse 16, "Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, Jehovah the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, hath appeared to me, saying, I have indeed visited you, and seen that which is done unto you in Egypt; and I have said, I will bring you

up out of the affliction of Egypt, unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey. And they shall hearken to thy voice". He is impressing Moses with the greatness of the people in His mind, and Moses is to respect them; so that the servant begins thus in the knowledge of God to see that the people necessarily are greater than himself. He is to be an instrument in God's hand for their blessing. "Ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake" (2 Corinthians 4:5). Every servant should reckon that the saints are not his flock; he is their servant.

C.H.H. Would this instance of the thorn-bush be a final test as to God's own work with Moses during the forty years, and would that qualify him for leadership, having due regard for the people of God?

J.T. Yes. The knowledge of God is opening up to him. Moses is coming to know God in His essential Being. It is God essentially -- "I AM THAT I AM". Moses is directed to say to the children of Israel: "Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you. This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations". The people were in God's heart. He had great thoughts and purposes as to them. He compassionates them in their present misery in Egypt and would bring them out of their affliction there unto the land He had purposed for them -- a land flowing with milk and honey. I AM is sending Moses to the children of Israel with these good tidings. He has been raised up on their account, and is now to be used by Jehovah to deliver them from their cruel bondage and lead them into the land His love has provided for them. Besides his mission to Israel, Moses is to be sent to Pharaoh -- "that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt". As to this Jehovah said, "I will harden his

heart, that he shall not let the people go. And thou shalt say to Pharaoh, Thus saith Jehovah: Israel is my son, my firstborn". It is affecting that Pharaoh is to know that Israel is Jehovah's son, Jehovah's firstborn. "And I say to thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me". That is the line of thought in chapter 4. After he comes into the knowledge of God the servant comes into a direct transaction with God, involving committal on his part and on God's part. God is revealing Himself essentially to Moses. He had already regarded the people, but now they are to be known as in God's counsels, as God's son. In serving we should apprehend what the saints are to God, how we are to clothe them as we minister to them.

L.E.S. Do you think Solomon came to this where he says to Jehovah, "And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude" (1 Kings 3:8)?

J.T. That is a good example in serving -- that we value the brethren. We never love the brethren if we do not respect them; nor can we serve them with feeling unless we love them. A great servant says, "if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved" (2 Corinthians 12:15). Love has its own reward. You have pleasure in loving people.

A.R. Why is it that God says He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and then it says, "Moses hid his face"? God is appearing in relation to His people. Why is he afraid?

J.T. He is still in the making here. God says. "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham". It is not his immediate father. Abraham is in mind. Is he equal to this? He still has to learn to be at liberty with God. Moses was afraid to look at God and hid himself. What is presented here enters generally into service and leadership. It is only as a servant knows God and has liberty with Him that he can serve Him

acceptably. And it is only in this liberty that he can truly serve the saints.

G.A.T. What does it mean to be on good terms with God?

J.T. We are to be with Him on His own terms. His goodness and severity run on together; but He has no pleasure in dealing harshly with us. Normally God has pleasure in His servants. Moses was faithful in all God's house (Numbers 12:7). What enjoyment He had in him! But how much more in the perfect Servant! Of Him God said, "Behold my servant whom I uphold, mine elect in whom my soul delighteth!" (Isaiah 42:1).

C.DeB. Does what you have said of Moses fit in with Asher, who dipped his foot in oil that he might be acceptable to his brethren (Deuteronomy 33:24)?

J.T. Yes. It is the blessing of Moses, the man of God, himself. Moses, at the end of his life, helps us in all this; he conveys the mind of God in blessing in regard to each of the tribes. Deuteronomy 33 is full of this -- how the saints are apprehended as in favour with God.

E.G.McA. He uses the expression, I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but when Moses expresses a doubt as to his going and ability, God says, I AM.

J.T. "And Moses said to God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? And he said, For I will be with thee; and this shall be the sign to thee that I have sent thee: when thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain. And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say, What is his name?" That is a good question. It is easier to ask it than to answer it, but God put it into Moses' mouth. "God said to

Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you". "I AM" is His essential, infinite Being. But at that time much more remained to be disclosed.

E.G.McA. Then He said, "Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you". Is that falling back on His essential Being to establish His great thoughts?

J.T. That is the idea.

A.R. When you say, 'come up' what do you mean?

J.T. What has already come out. Think of the history that was antecedent to all this! The world in which Moses was then was probably 3,000 years of God's relations with His creatures. How much had come out! There is much more to come out; "I AM" is infinitude, but you have to wait for its fulness.

A.E.H. Does John's gospel come into your mind as you are dwelling on these thoughts? I was thinking of the prominence of the word 'sent'.

J.T. John's gospel fits into Moses peculiarly. The Lord says of Moses to the Jews, "if ye do not believe his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" The great I AM is speaking. That brings out the greatness of Moses' ministry. Thus you can link this on with John's gospel. "In the beginning was". That is Being. It is "I AM". "In the beginning was" is historic, but extending back infinitely, but in John 8:58 the Lord says, "Before Abraham was, I am" -- that is eternal existence, as in Exodus 3:14.

A.E.H. The Lord says in that gospel to certain ones, "unless ye shall believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24). That is, the fire will have full effect in judgment, but here the bush is not consumed.

J.T. Just so. As already said, He says in the same chapter, "Before Abraham was, I am". Not I was, but I am.

G.A.T. Would you say that Jehovah wanted to impress Moses and the people with the greatness of His Person?

J.T. Yes. He is putting it on its own infinite basis. The full unfolding of this awaited the incarnation. It requires the incarnation to be understood. John's gospel opens it up. All anticipated the incarnation. Even what we are speaking of as to service looked forward to the presence here on earth of Christ as Man -- for God. And as to how He served, He says, "I do always the things that are pleasing to him" (John 8:29). We can only touch on these great things now, and it is in view of our subject -- that there may be an immediate effect on each of us who are seeking to serve. God comes in; He is desirous to have transactions with us, so that we may be representative of Him in serving the saints. He is with His people. They will come out glorious at the end, even though there may be failure. The bush is not consumed. What understanding have you got of the people of God? How are you going to serve them, how are you going to clothe them in your thoughts in serving them? He is not only there with them in the bush, but in infinitude. The heavens cannot contain Him. 'I am raising you up on their account', He would say to each one. Therefore let us get into our souls a right apprehension and attitude as to God and of those we would serve, so that the ministry may be between Him and us. The position is "God's dispensation, which is in faith" (1 Timothy 1:4).

J.D. Would there be anything in the change from Jehovah to God in verse 4, "And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called"?

J.T. It is the supreme God (Elohim) of the first of Genesis, but He is now operating in relation to His people and revealing Himself as Jehovah.

The next point now to be considered is this matter of sonship, the message as to sonship to Pharaoh. What

strength in the servant's soul would this intimate conversing with God afford -- God Himself, in view of his mission to Pharaoh! "Thus saith Jehovah: Israel is my son, my firstborn. And I say to thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill thy son, thy firstborn". The servant is fortified with that, what God will do as He is disregarded, because he is now to be a representative of God.

J.D. Are you suggesting that the thought of leadership has the service of God in mind in connection with sonship?

J.T. That is plain enough here. We are rising now in our subject of sonship. It is the service of a son that God has in His mind. He is warning every Pharaoh, every government, every one as to what His people are to Him. He is not only speaking to His servant Moses now, but speaking to Pharaoh. He is using this wonderful term as to Israel, "my son", and he is to serve Him. God is entering into conflict with those that oppose His people. The servant should be impressed with the greatness of the things he is dealing with, the greatness of the people in God's mind, that they are in the great relation of sonship with Him. That involves Christ's sonship, the incarnation: "out of Egypt have I called my son" (Matthew 2:15).

J.D. It is necessary for the servant to have this abstract view, this high thought of the saints being the sons of God.

J.T. Paul develops that in the letters to Corinth, what the saints were to God and what they were to him; how he regarded them, and warned them too to be enlarged as he was enlarged because of what he heard about them. "Our mouth is opened to you, Corinthians, our heart is expanded ... let your heart also expand itself" (2 Corinthians 6:11, 13). Then he goes on to speak of what would hinder their being expanded; namely, worldliness.

But God says, I have taken you into relationship with me. "And I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty" (2 Corinthians 6:18). We have these exceedingly great promises, and thus we should be "perfecting holiness in God's fear" (2 Corinthians 7:1).

E.G.McA. Do you think the apostle Paul had that in his mind in the epistle to the Galatians, trying to deliver them from legality?

J.T. Yes. Galatians corresponds, so that sonship is the point; what we are, "Jerusalem above" being our mother.

C.A.M. The impression that Moses had, the light of incarnation typically brought before his soul, would be sonship. The great thought that would come before us as the truth of the incarnation dawns on us is sonship.

J.T. That is how the truth will stand eternally.

A.R. As Moses and Aaron go to Pharaoh and tell him this message, he increases the pressure. What would you say about that?

J.T. Well, the most serious thing is that God says He will harden his heart. Verse 21 says, "I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go". That is a terrible thing. You have got to deal with a man whose heart is judicially hardened. You will have a hard time of it. But God is now moving against Pharaoh for the deliverance of His people, and "who hath hardened himself against him and hath prospered?"

G.A.T. Is it not hard for us to understand that God had hardened this man's heart and still feel that he was wrong?

J.T. It is God's way. Romans opens this up. "Who art thou that answerest again to God?" (Romans 9:20). "The scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very thing I have raised thee up from amongst men, that I might thus show in thee my power" (Romans 9:17). Why should

God not have a free judicial hand? He is supreme. God will wear Pharaoh down through the ten plagues; but then He is testing His servant. But Moses becomes greater and greater -- the man Moses (Exodus 11:3). That is the testimony of this book. That is the normal way of God with His servants. The very hardness of the task brings out "the power that worketh in us".

A.E.H. While God has His thoughts of the saints in an abstract way, He would have in His mind that they are distinguished, and all that opposes them at the outset would be brought down.

J.T. If you look at Exodus 5 you will see what a plight they seem to be in. In verse 1, it is said, "Moses and Aaron went in, and said to Pharaoh" etc., and in verses 6 - 15, "And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying, Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves. And the number of the bricks they have made heretofore shall ye lay upon them: ye shall not diminish any of it, for they are idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God. Let them put heavier labour on the men, that they may be taken up with it, and not regard vain words. And the taskmasters of the people and their officers went out and spoke to the people, saying, Thus says Pharaoh: I will not give you straw: go ye, get yourselves straw where ye may find it; but none of your work shall be diminished. And the people were scattered abroad throughout the land of Egypt to gather stubble for straw. And the taskmasters urged them saying, Fulfil your labours, the daily work, as when there was straw. And the officers of the children of Israel, whom Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten, and it was said, Why have ye not fulfilled your task in making brick, both yesterday and today, as heretofore? Then the officers of the children of Israel came and cried to Pharaoh,

saying, Why dost thou deal thus with thy bondmen?" Pharaoh says, verses 17 - 21, "Ye are idle, idle! therefore ye say, Let us go and sacrifice to Jehovah. And now go -- work! and straw shall not be given you, and ye shall deliver the measure of bricks. And the officers of the children of Israel saw that it stood ill with them, because it was said, Ye shall not diminish anything from your bricks, the daily work. And they met Moses and Aaron ... And they said to them, Jehovah look upon you and judge, that ye have made our odour to stink in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his bondman, putting a sword into their hand to kill us". Now look at where they are, look at what a servant has to contend with. This record is made for those who serve. "And Moses returned to Jehovah, and said, Lord, why hast thou done evil to this people? why now hast thou sent me? For ever since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all!" This is a most critical time, but Moses is going to come out victorious.

G,A.T. Is there weakness here?

J.T. This is God's way. God is bringing Himself before us. This is the God we are to serve. We are to serve Him with reverence and godly fear. If you do not answer the test, He may have to discard you.

A.R. We may think that Pharaoh was going to wear down the saints to oblivion, whereas God was wearing down Pharaoh, not Israel.

J.T. Yes. This lesson enters into all times. What a time we are in now! It is a learning time for us all, and especially for those who serve.

C.H.H. Is Exodus 4:24 a personal test?

J.T. Yes-a most searching one, Jehovah sought to slay him. It was a domestic matter, but typically, disregard of the death of Christ was involved -- circumcision was neglected. We have to learn to go through with

God crises in our circumstances as we seek to serve Him. The brethren may turn against us. They turned against Moses here.

A.P.T. Is Stephen illustrative of a real leader in a practical way?

J.T. Stephen's leadership involved martyrdom, and coupled with this is his ability to unfold the ways of God in a crisis, to pick out the line of things, or the lines of things that have to be dealt with. Stephen was meeting a most difficult situation and he died for the truth in it, but it was bringing in what was needed at the time. His ministry was brief, but he brought in what was needed in a masterful way. It was most effective. What he was shone out in his face.

L.E.S. Referring to being discarded, did you have in mind Elijah at Mount Horeb?

J.T. Yes. Of course, he discarded himself, but God accepted his resignation. That is a humbling thing in itself. He asked God to let him die. God says 'I will let you go all the way you have in mind'. He was going back to Horeb -- retrogression. He was going to resign his commission. God said, 'I will help you to go back', to fulfil what he had in his mind. It is solemn because it is an exposure of the state he was in at that time. After his greatest victory he collapses.

A.P.T. When Paul and Barnabas were about to start on their second service among the gentiles there was quite a crisis as to whether John Mark should go with them. Paul did not take John Mark because he gave up and went back, so that he took Silas instead.

J.T. Yes. Barnabas would take Mark because he was a natural relative. The allowance of the influence of natural relations among the saints is most baneful. That is what Paul had to stand against there.

Ques. Would not the fact that Moses had learned not to fear the wrath of the king serve him well in connection with issues arising among the brethren?

J.T. It would. He manifested that spirit at the beginning. Now he has to face Pharaoh, apparently not fearing him. Exodus 7:1 says, "Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet". Aaron's staff will become a serpent. They are acting in the presence of Pharaoh apparently, without fear. Jehovah tells him to go down and stand "in front of him". I think he began well in not fearing the wrath of the king. God removed that king, Exodus 2:23. The present king is not especially opposed to Moses, but the question is general now as to the service of God. He is now more manifestly against God than Moses.

E.G.McA. What is the bearing of circumcision in this crisis of Moses in chapter 4: 24? Why does circumcision come in just as Moses got a message to go back to Egypt?

J.T. Jehovah met him and sought to slay him, as we have noted. It was because of the circumcision. A servant may fail in regard to circumcision, that is, the putting off the demands of the flesh in relation to our houses. You have to put it off totally, that is, in the circumcision of Christ. The word to young men is not to love the world nor the things in the world, because what is of the world is not of the Father. Many a young servant has been damaged by his wife, because she wants the things of the world -- sometimes through urgency for a better house, better furniture, etc.

A.R. If Moses had been allowed to continue without circumcision in his house he might have misrepresented God before Pharaoh. "See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh", Jehovah says. That makes him a very great man, does it not?

J.T. Yes. That brings in another thing in relation to service: that is, that there is a divine system -- that one is not merely an individual, but serving in a system of things. Here Aaron is a constituted prophet, "Aaron

thy brother shall be thy prophet". Moses is God to Pharaoh, not a god, but God, and Aaron is his prophet. So that the servant recognises others; he is working in a system. Surely God has a system. Christ is the Apostle and High Priest of our profession.

G.A.T. Would you say a word as to "Let my son go, that he may serve me". What does that service include?

J.T. Worship is implied -- ministering to Him. So Philippians 3:3 says, "We are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh". That is, in type, what is in mind here, service Godward. Jehovah directed Moses that Israel should serve at Horeb, Exodus 3:12.

L.E.S. Would Paul's apostleship in the Corinthian epistle, being based on the will of God, be God's representative authoritatively, and the brothers Sosthenes and Timothy be linked up with the apostle in the same way that Aaron is linked up with Moses?

J.T. Yes. Aaron is the more sympathetic side of the position, but he is not the priest yet. He is a prophet. We shall look at Aaron tomorrow, God willing.

We have already touched on the passage in Numbers where God says He spoke to Moses "mouth to mouth". That was a great honour, involving special knowledge of God. Then in Deuteronomy 33 it is said Moses was king in Jeshurun. That place he acquired with the people; and then in the last chapter of that book it is said, "there arose no prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom Jehovah had known face to face; according to all the signs and wonders that Jehovah had sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land; and according to all that mighty hand; and according to all the great terribleness that Moses had wrought in the sight of all Israel". Another thing is that God buried him. That is a beautiful distinction conferred on Moses.

LEADERSHIP (3)

Exodus 4:14 - 17, 27 - 31; Exodus 6:26 - 30; Exodus 7:1 - 7; Exodus 32:1 - 6; Exodus 15:20, 21

J.T. Our subject this morning is Aaron and Miriam. It reminds us at the outset of the brotherly spirit in service; it is not a question of gift, but brotherly feeling and affection, and ability to speak, and through this the obligation to take a secondary place in service -- not an independent line as with the apostles. Each apostle had his own line of ministry. In this type it is the same ministry, the same current of things, and the introduction of the brother, or brothers, of a brotherly spirit, with readiness to take a second place in order to augment the position already inaugurated. Aaron appears as an afterthought. God intimated that He would go on with Moses alone, but Moses felt weak and unable to take the service up by himself, and so God in this first passage tells him about his brother, or rather by his question, reminds him of him. "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well". Aaron represents divine resources and reserves, but he is not brought in in any way to supplant Moses but to supplement his service. So that the deficiency that Moses asserted of himself is to be made up, the whole position is to be buttressed by the addition of Aaron. The verses read in chapters 6 and 7 show respectively the ages of the men. Aaron was older than Moses, which would not be an accident; God intended that there should be, through this fact, occasion of exercise in each of the brothers. Moses would have to overcome by moral power the discrepancy of age. Aaron came to that in time because he called him lord, showing that the moral feature is a great thing in service. Miriam is Aaron's sister in Exodus 15, but in Numbers 26 she is 'their' sister, just the three in the family so far as the record goes. They will be tested

family-wise. Natural relations are often very testing; nature by itself does not help at all in the family of God. It is always treacherous. That God should take up three from one family is remarkable. In view of their great age and being from one family, this confirms that these three persons are intended to furnish teaching for all servants coming after.

J.D. Allowing fully for the sovereignty of God in the selection of Moses, there is what has been in Moses of his own volition in coming forward. Do you think Aaron recognised that?

J.T. Well, he follows in happy accord: "And Jehovah said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him on the mountain of God, and kissed him. And Moses told Aaron all the words of Jehovah who had sent him, and all the signs that he had commanded him. And Moses and Aaron went and gathered all the elders of the children of Israel; and Aaron spoke all the words that Jehovah had spoken to Moses". He did not add a word of his own apparently, but just spoke the words that God had spoken to Moses; so he falls into the position at once.

L.E.S. Would the family at Bethany somewhat correspond -- Mary and Martha and Lazarus -- the Lord qualifying them to serve?

J.T. There is a link, I am sure. It is only seen operative at the final supper at Bethany where they are all functioning together.

J.H. Is there some indication of service in the words, "the Levite thy brother"?

J.T. That is to be noted. He is not simply 'a' Levite but 'the' Levite, as though God would distinguish him in this way. The fact that his name is not mentioned earlier is to remind us that prospective servants are under the eye of God early. For God begins far up the stream with all of us if He is going

to use us. He knew Aaron and called him "the Levite". Why does He call him that? Evidently he had manifested the instincts of the Levite.

A.E.H. Is this what betrays him later when he makes the calf -- the idea of "the Levite" overcoming what might have been priestly in him? I was thinking that he was more on the level of serving the people there, and this betrayed him into falling below his proper level as placed of God. The Levite element has to be under control of what is priestly.

J.T. Well, clearly he fell under the influence of the people. His failures are marked by coming under other influence, whether it be the people here, or Miriam later, or the example of Moses as in Numbers 20. I think Aaron's history reminds us of the dangers attaching to an amiable brother, a brotherly brother. He is apt to forget divine claims in meeting the claims of the brethren, falling under their influence; not being alone with God enough, too much with the brethren, and too much concerned about having their support.

H.B. Is that what is meant by "in brotherly love [have] love" (2 Peter 1:7)?

J.T. That is just what is meant. Peter says that love is the saving element. Brotherly love, if in excess of love, will expose us to undue influence of brethren, which is always damaging.

A.A.T. We have Paul and Barnabas working together and later Silas working with Paul. They work in couples. Is there any link in that?

J.T. Yes; the Lord sent out the apostles and the seventy others two and two. The point here is that Aaron shall augment fully what has already been inaugurated; therefore the connection in those cases would be that the brotherly spirit is allied with the apostolic spirit in Paul. The authority of God in Moses, or in Paul, might be too much for the brethren, so that the addition of a brother or brothers is intended

to assure all of right sympathy and right feelings generally.

J.H.E. Would you say Jacob rose to the situation when Joseph brought his sons to him? He really did the right thing in blessing them.

J.T. Yes. He was entirely above Joseph's influence. With anybody in Egypt but Jacob and Pharaoh, the word of Joseph would be enough and there could be no withstanding it; but Jacob had blessed Pharaoh, and now he is dealing with Joseph. Joseph says, "Not so, my father", and you may be sure that there was authority in his voice, but Jacob is not influenced by that. He says, "I know, my son, I know".

A.R. Do Moses and Aaron represent one idea rather than two?

J.T. Yes. Aaron is brought in to augment what is there. Aaron was to supply the deficiency in the power of speech; other things came in later, but what comes into Exodus 4 is that God would go on with Moses alone.

W.L. Do we find today these two qualifications in one brother at the same time -- ability in the way of gift coupled with moral qualifications?

J.T. Yes; we certainly find them in the true Moses and Aaron, who is the High Priest of our confession. We begin with Christ in all these matters and see the perfect blend in Him, and Paul came nearer to that than anyone else. Paul sent Timothy to Corinth that he might fill out the thought he had as to example -- that they might learn his ways as they were in Christ.

W.L. So that the moral thing is by far the greater.

J.T. I do not think any brother should assume that he cannot do this or that. The apostle Paul never faltered, even if it were to carry money from the brethren or to build a fire; he was ready to do what was needed. The Lord Jesus says, "I am in the midst of you as one that serves" (Luke 22:27). We must see that we do not

appear to be clerical in any way, to be above our ordinary work. Paul says, Why should Barnabas and I not cease to work? but we are not doing it. Why should we not marry wives? but we are not doing it. They voiced what was right, and the saints should respect those rights, though they were not asserting them. There are rights, and the saints should recognise those rights, while the servants themselves are ready to do anything that is to be done. Aaron could speak well. It is said of Paul in Acts 14 that he was the chief speaker.

Ques. I suppose no service that involves several persons could go on without the moral qualities we have spoken of, in addition to co-ordination?

J.T. That is important, and is more plainly stated in chapter 6. Here God says in Exodus 4:16, "And he shall speak for thee unto the people; and it shall come to pass that he shall be to thee for a mouth, and thou shalt be to him for God". God has made both mouths and He is going to give effect to both mouths, and in result I expect Moses' mouth exceeded Aaron's. In the meantime God is taking the matter in hand. It is a great undertaking. As we are entering on the service of God, we are entering on a great matter; it is already inaugurated, and it is a question whether we can fit in. Here God says, I am going to be with both your mouths; so that both increase in power, increase together. Therefore their speech would be a fit representation of God because there would be no disparity at all, no divided thought. Then in chapter 6 Moses raises the question of his poor speaking again. He says he is "of uncircumcised lips". It is a critical stage: Moses is not yet established and Aaron has come on the scene and chapter 5 is the crisis. God is hardening Pharaoh. It is a testing time and Moses is still afraid of his speaking powers, which is rather poor because God had said He would be with his mouth.

Then Jehovah said in chapter 7, "See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh", as if in the crisis God is capitalising what can be used. He is not capitalising Moses; his great words in Egypt are not capitalised at all. It is that God is to be with the mouths as they are, not simply with their words, but with their mouths. Who has made man's mouth? God has not only made them, but He is going to be with our mouths, that is the point. The Lord at Nazareth opened His mouth, and those present wondered at the words of grace that were coming out of it.

Now God says, "See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee; and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land" (Exodus 7:1, 2). Now it is a question of brethren working systematically but according to God's appointment. It is not a question of Moses liking Aaron particularly, nor is it that Aaron is such a brotherly man, but that God is placing them together. It is a question now of the representation of God to Pharaoh.

J.S. Is it God Himself establishing the Mosaic system here?

J.T. Well, that is what it is. But really it is a question of what He is doing in this room, of suggesting to us that we have to work together. If I have to take a second place let me do it, or if I have to take a first place let me do it; but without the undercurrent of brotherly affection it will not be real or effective. Christianity involves systematic divine representation; and underneath all there must be moral authority developing and that is what happened in Moses' case.

J.D. Do you think the opposition from the inside, from the difficult people he was serving, as well as from the hardness of Pharaoh's heart on the outside, established Moses' leadership? They did not listen

to him, chapter 6: 9. But in the face of all that, leadership was being established in Moses' heart on brotherly lines.

J.T. That is the idea. God is working to get the institution moving. It is a great matter, but the state of the people is inimical to it. It is very difficult to serve brethren that are disgruntled. If the brethren are oppressed or divided, there is great difficulty in serving them; chapter 5 brings that out. But the terrible thing is that God is hardening Pharaoh's heart. God had furnished Aaron as speaker for Moses, and Moses is to be God to Pharaoh. Let no one be afraid of this. What is before us here is a type of what God has set up in Christ in heaven. God is thus represented down here. The Spirit in the assembly implies an anointed system in which God is represented. Here God is putting His stamp upon what He has effected. There is representation of God both to the saints and to Pharaoh.

J.D. This seems to open up that passage, "A brother is born for adversity" (Proverbs 17:17).

J.T. There is one called "the brother Quartus" in Romans 16:23. That he was a brother evidently characterised him. But we have to pay attention to the tendency in Aaron of coming under the influence of others; and it is sure that if brothers form special links with each other that is what will happen. Exodus 32 discloses a bad underlying state in the people. There is a crisis and these two men are before us. We have had Moses representing authority, and he does not come under evil influence, he is definitely with God in this great sorrow. Aaron's first great failure is that he was influenced by the people, failing to be with God. As Moses was on the mountain with God, Aaron and Hur were left with the people. But in the absence of Moses he came under the influence of the people and blamed them for the great sin. He says, "the people ... are set on mischief". He was

right in a sense, but he was wrong too in listening to them. Indeed he was guilty as having become the instrument used in their idolatry.

J.H.E. Would you say that was Peter's failure? When he was with the Jews he was like the Jews. Paul had to reprove him.

J.T. Before certain came from James he ate with those of the nations, but when they came, he withdrew. That is what we have here in Exodus 32.

J.H. Was it seen too in Barnabas, a very brotherly man, who was carried away "by their dissimulation"?

J.T. Quite so. Barnabas was in it. It just confirms what we have been saying -- the damage of special links, brother with brother.

J.S. Does Paul in the temple with the vow on him illustrate the same thing?

J.T. Well, he does. These are all cases included in what we are saying, how a servant may come under wrong influence.

A.P.T. In Matthew 16:22, after the Lord had given Peter great truth regarding revelation, he says to the Lord, "God be favourable to thee, Lord; this shall in no wise be unto thee". Was Peter there really coming under another influence?

J.T. Yes, but he would bring the Lord under his influence. He was trying to divert the Lord from the path of the will of God. The Lord says, "Get away behind me, Satan; ... for thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men".

J.D. The Corinthian error was in forming parties. 1 Corinthians 4:6 says, "not letting your thoughts go above what is written, that ye may not be puffed up one for such a one against another". Does that help?

J.T. Yes. That first joint service of Moses and Aaron was highly successful. Exodus 4:31 says, "And when they heard that Jehovah had visited the

children of Israel, and that he had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped". That was a highly successful bit of service at the start. Then the crisis is seen in the fifth chapter, the state of the people and the state of Pharaoh; and in the sixth chapter, "Jehovah said to Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh", verse 1. And in verse 9, "Moses spoke thus to the children of Israel; but they did not listen to Moses from anguish of spirit, and from hard service. And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Go in, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land. And Moses spoke before Jehovah, saying, Lo, the children of Israel do not hearken to me: how then should Pharaoh hearken to me, to me of uncircumcised lips? And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, and gave them a commandment to the children of Israel, and to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt". That is a settled thing in God's mind from verse 13, overruling all Moses' felt weakness and anxiety. It is a settled matter.

The next thing is the genealogy working out into the priesthood. In verse 16 we have the sons of Levi. Their generations start with Levi and end with Phinehas; Moses and Aaron are in mind in all this, who these two men are. What a history behind them! That is what you get in verse 26, "This is that Aaron and Moses, to whom Jehovah said, Bring out the children of Israel from the land of Egypt according to their hosts. These are they who spoke to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring out the children of Israel from Egypt: this is that Moses and Aaron". God is telling us here that these men are going through. He has made no mistake in the selection.

And then it is said, "And it came to pass on the day when Jehovah spoke to Moses in the land of Egypt, that Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, I am

Jehovah: speak thou unto Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say unto thee. And Moses said before Jehovah, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how will Pharaoh hearken to me?" He reverts back to his weakness. But Jehovah inaugurates the system of which we have already spoken, chapter 7: 1. This would support Moses and Aaron in the great task assigned to them. God says in Exodus 7:15, "Go unto Pharaoh in the morning -- behold, he will go out unto the water -- and take thy stand by the bank of the river in front of him; and take in thy hand the staff that was turned into a serpent". Aaron is brought into all this, and Moses and Aaron are seen running right through to chapter 12 in this immense undertaking of God. There is no let-up at all and Moses is increasing in power in all these operations until he can say, "I will see thy face again no more!" Exodus 10:29. All this indicates how the service of God must go on.

G.A.T. Would you say that from verse 13 of chapter 6 Jehovah puts Moses under a command? It is not what Moses can do or cannot do, it is what he must do.

J.T. Quite so. It is God now. God is to be here representatively. That is why the system is set up in this way: "Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have made thee God to Pharaoh". Now that is not an empty commission, God is to be with his mouth. Applied to ourselves today, this is a question of God, we are in God's service, we have come into something that was inaugurated hundreds of years ago. It is a question of our coming into it, and representing God in His service. What they say to Pharaoh is in power; that is what is seen in chapter 7; and what these two men say to Pharaoh will have power until Pharaoh has to let the people go.

J.H. What is the thought in Aaron doing these signs before Pharaoh?

J.T. They represent God to bring down the world as the Lord Jesus did. It is Moses as God, Moses in the dignity of God in representation. You do not get Aaron as priest officially until chapter 29. Here we are dealing with the person of Aaron, what the man is himself.

A.R. That is what is in mind in Corinthians, in the prophetic meeting. The prophet brings God in, and as it says, God is among you.

J.T. Yes. The prophetic meeting, as we call it, is carried on in the light of the representation of God. Hence, as a brother is prophesying God is known there.

A.MacD. Is this a good balance in service: chapter 6: 26, says, "this is that Aaron and Moses", and verse 27, "this is that Moses and Aaron"?

J.T. It is a good balance. When the Spirit says, "Aaron and Moses", that is a recognition of Aaron's age and brotherliness; but when He says, "Moses and Aaron", that is the recognition of Moses' place morally and his power.

Ques. Is there any great evidence that Aaron is a man of faith?

J.T. There is nothing said of it, but I would say that he was. Aaron is drawn into the faith system. Moses is specially designated to the system of faith and Aaron is joining in what Moses is doing. We read about Aaron's burial (Deuteronomy 10:6), a remarkable burial, only two at the funeral! "And they went up" (Numbers 20:27), a beautiful evidence of his recognition of God's right to him, entire submission to the will of God. He died by the will of God, like the Lord Jesus. It is a most touching thing to think of those three up there, Moses disrobing Aaron and putting the high-priestly garments on Eleazar. God honours Moses in that way. "Moses and Aaron among his priests" (Psalm 99:6).

G.H. Would you say that God seems to be stressing

the feature of representation at the present day in brethren having to do with the authorities?

J.T. Yes. On the one hand the authorities represent God to you (Romans 13:1 - 6), but on the other hand, on the moral side, you represent God to them, 1 Peter 2:9. That is the test, as to whether there is any testimony for God. God is putting as a spear-head "a conscience without offence towards God and men" (Acts 24:16). God is using that in the young men before the tribunals. It is a moral representation of Himself.

G.A.T. Would you say that is the essential without which you cannot expect God's support?

J.T. Yes. It is a remarkable time in that sense; and it is a question whether we are entirely given up to conscience, or if we are modifying the thing for the sake of gain, for the sake of what accrues to us financially.

A.R. We might do it for a way of escape. In Exodus 5 the pressure is crucial. Today we might modify it as a way out; we might volunteer for something easier.

J.T. That is what I was thinking of. It is a question of whether you are putting conscience in the front, a conscience void of offence before God and men.

J.H. So that the will of God enters into it.

J.T. Putting the moral side first; first things first, and righteousness, involving a good conscience, has this place.

A.B. In chapter 6, it says in the one case, "this is that Aaron and Moses", and in the other, "this is that Moses and Aaron;" but at the beginning of verse 27 it says, "these are they". Is there something in that?

J.T. God is calling attention to them. God is really dealing in this critical part of our subject with His own system, a representation of Himself, and He is capitalising the position not simply by telling Moses, You are to be God, but, "I have made thee God".

God did it. You may be sure that God will be there, He will be there to make it effective. Pharaoh is made to feel that he has to do with God, he is dealing with God.

Ques. Would you say that a real leader would feel that he has to act like God and for God?

J.T. If there is to be representation, there must be that. "Let us make man in our image:" that is representation.

W.L. Would you say that would be inseparably linked up with the brethren?

J.T. Quite so. Aaron is that element.

C.R. Paul could say, "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place" (2 Corinthians 2:14). Does that apply?

J.T. It does apply. God is doing that. Paul says, "an angel of the God ... whom I serve" (Acts 27:23), and "having therefore met with the help which is from God, I have stood firm" (Acts 26:22).

F.N.W. As to Moses being conscious of his weakness, do you think that sometimes a sense of weakness may be God's working? Paul had a constant thorn in the flesh and that would require Christ's service.

J.T. Well, Moses would require help too, but here he is telling God he has uncircumcised lips.

F.N.W. In some of our localities leadership from God is hindered through over-occupation with weakness.

J.T. Therefore God augments our position, linking us on with the brethren. But now He says, "I have made thee God" -- not, 'to the brethren', but -- "I have made thee God to Pharaoh", because that is where you will need more support. It is not said that Moses was God to the brethren. It is "God to Pharaoh". God is capitalising the position, so that Moses might succeed in the representation of God; and he did succeed.

J.T.Jr. When Moses and Aaron got into the subject

they did well. They feared before they started their address, but when they got into it, God helped. Is that not very often true?

J.T. Very often a brother is very timid before he stands up, and he gets far more support than he reckons on. Because God wants to fit him, He is with his mouth; he will do better the next time.

L.E.S. Do you not get the idea in Jeremiah where he says, "Behold, I cannot speak; for I am a child. But Jehovah said unto me, Say not, I am a child; for thou shalt go to whomsoever I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak. Be not afraid of them; for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith Jehovah" (Jeremiah 1:6 - 8). And then it says, "And Jehovah put forth his hand and touched my mouth; and Jehovah said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth. See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to pluck up, and to break down, and to destroy, and to overthrow, to build and to plant" (verses 9, 10).

J.T. There is a great similarity between Jeremiah and Moses.

G.A.T. When the Father spoke about His Son: "This is my beloved Son; hear him", there were no Moses and Aaron there.

J.T. No, because He is Moses and Aaron combined. He is the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. I hope all the brethren get some little impression of this matter of representation, because we are in a terrible time, and these features are necessary if God is to be represented in these terrible times, especially if the conscience void of offence is to be put forward. It is the making of the young men if they are before God in prayer about it. God would help in prayer.

G.A.T. Would you say a word on how you go in for this?

J.T. It is not a question of going in for it, but of

being put into it; first purchasing to yourself a good degree, and then God takes you on. You did not know you had such power, but as you go on God will give you such support that you will be conscious that He is with you.

C.A.M. You were saying that God starts with this matter far up-stream. I mean that the preparation of the servants dates back long before they had any apprehension of it.

J.T. Quite so. The sixth chapter shows these two men brought into the service; we have their full genealogical position. In genealogical positions God is telling us that He has been thinking long before about us. So in Exodus 6:2, "God spoke to Moses, and said to him, I am Jehovah. And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob". So we go back to the foundation, the source of things, when God began to operate in Abraham; and then we have the sons of Jacob down to Levi, because that is what is in the mind of God -- to bring out what these two men were. What men they are! He does not mention Miriam here, but He does later. They spring from a pure family, as we get in the first part of the book, "A man of the house of Levi went and took a daughter of Levi" (Exodus 2:1). It was a wholly right seed. Is there a wholly right seed in the links we form? That is the point for us. These two men sprang from that, and God says these are the two; and they did the things required, for it says, "These are they who spoke to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring out the children of Israel from Egypt: this is that Moses and Aaron". Their ages are given later. There they are, they stand out all through the ages representing this great principle for those who undertake service. God has put us into families so that we should understand that, even if there is disparity of age, it is a question of moral qualifications. This must prevail. That is what prevailed in Moses.

A.E.H. I notice that each time Moses refers to his weakness, it is when he is speaking to God. Do you think it is a false sense of humility if I am referring all the time to my weakness in speaking to the brethren, instead of speaking in power as having to do with God?

J.T. Well, just so, it is power with God. Jacob set out that principle; unlike Moses, he wrestled with God, he did not give up; he wrestled with the angel and prevailed.

J.D. What is the point in God selecting the meeting place, verse 15, "he will go out unto the water"?

J.T. Pharaoh was going out to the water as was usual. He might say to Moses, This is no time to see me; why do you not come to my place of reception? The word is, "behold, he will go out unto the water -- and take thy stand by the bank of the river in front of him". That is, the river would be the resources of Egypt. God is going to operate against Egypt there; God chooses His own battle-ground.

J.H. It has been said that that is a mark of a good general.

J.T. He had taken up the same thought in sending Aaron to meet Moses; Aaron would be influenced by the mountain of God. He met him on the mountain of God and kissed him; meeting his brother, his affections became active. It is a good thing to know where to meet the brethren, as well as Pharaoh.

A.R. Is the meeting at the river intended to break down the world system, one system operating to bring down another?

J.T. That is the idea. The first sign had reference to the river -- what Egypt prided itself in and relied upon. God is meeting Pharaoh at his strong point, not at his weak point. Moses is to stand in front of him. God is ready now, He has a system inaugurated, so that we are not to be afraid. While you are to be

subject to the tribunals, your heart is not to be full of fear or you will never represent God. The scripture says, "Fear not".

C.H.H. Pharaoh had boasted that the river was his. Would this be to counteract that claim?

J.T. I think so. God is dealing with the position at its strongest point, and that is how God deals with the world, to expose it and overthrow it.

H.B. What would you say about the crucifixion being outside Jerusalem, the great centre of that time?

J.T. It must happen there. Moses and Elias spoke to the Lord of His exit, of what would happen at Jerusalem. It was the strength of the world religiously, and the political power was there; Pontius Pilate and the nations were there. That is the strongest point of all the world, and there God exposed it. "The earth was shaken".

Ques. What would you say is conveyed in the staff in the hand of Aaron?

J.T. The staff is the same whether in the hand of Moses or of Aaron; only the idea of a divine system is maintained and God's authority, as we have been saying, is in it. The rod is seen in God's hand (chapter 7: 17), in Moses' hand and in Aaron's hand. In Aaron's hand it would, I suppose, be modified according to what he generally represents -- priestly grace and sympathy.

M.O. Paul reminds Timothy that Christ witnessed a good confession before Pontius Pilate. Is that representation?

J.T. Just so; representation is not in a symbol; the staff represents experience with God. Both Moses and Aaron have staves here, but they represent one thought. Moses' staff is called "the staff of God", also designated "the staff that was turned into a serpent".

J.D. Jacob gathered up his feet into his bed and leaned upon his staff. Is that experience?

J.T. I think so.

C.D.B. What about Stephen as representative under those trying circumstances?

J.T. He represented God. He represented God by the masterful way in which he presented the truth. He outlined the truth from the beginning. And he represented God in maintaining the truth of the dispensation in suffering. "Kneeling down, he cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" (Acts 7:60).

E.F. Would you indicate the difference between the thought of representation and the thought of a young person confessing the Lord's name?

J.T. Such a one is typically just at the age of 25, he is in his novitiate. He has to take the place of a learner. The Levites went in at 25, later at 20, but the full levitical age is 30 to 50; as though God would have full manhood to represent Him. The Lord Jesus as proclaimed at the Jordan "was beginning to be about 30 years old". God recognised Him as representing Him.

A.P.T. Is that why you referred to the ages of Moses and Aaron? Is there any suggestion of the increase of the knowledge of God in the 80 years?

J.T. There is. Aaron, Moses, and Miriam were all old. The point is that God does not appoint novices to His service; they have to learn. He uses us as we serve according to what our hands find to do, and this leads to official recognition. God had been watching over Aaron and He knew he could speak well. Aaron had skill, at least in that sense. It was what was needed.

J.T.Jr. The man of God is to be complete, fully fitted for every good work, to know the Scriptures, which are profitable for instruction. 2 Timothy seems to be special instruction for the man of God.

J.T. That is a good scripture to bring in. Timothy was a young man, but he was to overcome his youth by putting on manliness.

W.L. Do you think that putting on manly features is one of the things today in regard of the young men having to appear before tribunals?

J.T. That is right, he is to appear in the Spirit of Christ. As a young man comes into the truth he gains by what he finds. But Moses is not presented like that. We want to get at what each one is with God. Aaron is not presented like that. He is older than Moses and God has known him. I think it is what a man is in himself with God. Aaron's name is not mentioned until he is 83 years old, and yet God says, I know him. He was not with Moses and God, but evidently with God. What have I acquired with God in my own personal experience with Him? That is what each has to challenge himself about. Have I been with God?

R.W.S. Would not God keep this matter of conscience before the authorities by our young brothers appearing before them, and then as definite inquiry is made, in correspondence as to it by older brothers writing to the heads of governments -- as if God would have all to be reminded of conscience?

J.T. I am certain that is true. I am sure God has given the authorities and men in this world an opportunity. We read in Revelation of 7000 names of men; these are the men we have to do with. God is giving them an opportunity to see what the representation of Himself is. They profess to represent God, but the young man does too. He has a good conscience, void of offence toward God and man, which they have not, perhaps. He is telling them what first things are, that God is first, that God must be served rather than men. That is a fine testimony.

J.D. Referring to Timothy again, we often hear the first part of the verse quoted, "Let no one despise thy youth", but not the latter part of the verse, "but be a model of the believers, in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity" (1 Timothy 4:12).

J.T. So that you overcome your disparity of age by moral qualifications.

C.H.H. Acts 26:2 says, "Then Paul stretching out his hand answered in his defence: I count myself happy". He counted himself happy to give the testimony which is there stated.

J.T. He is so sensible of the power that worked in him. What would make us happier than that -- the sense that God is with us? The sense that God is with you and that you are with God is what makes you happy.

C.H.H. I was wondering whether the young men in appearing before tribunals should learn to welcome it, instead of dreading the ordeal; to give this testimony and be happy about it?

J.T. Paul is in great power. One always refers with pleasure to an occasion of a brother's being in power, but better still to be conscious of yourself being in power. You do not have to speak of it, but the consciousness is there. Paul says, "I would to God, both in little and in much, that not only thou, but all who have heard me this day, should become such as I also am" (the consciousness that he had), "except these bonds" (Acts 26:29).

A.P.T. Was he a little more representative of God in that chapter than he was as seen at the end of chapter 16?

J.T. When he directs that the magistrates should come and take him out? Yes. And as before the high priest he says, "God will smite thee, whited wall" (Acts 23:3). That was a mistake, but he is there a fine example of a man who corrects himself quickly. He did not know it was the high priest. The word is, "Thou shalt not speak evilly of the ruler of thy people" (Acts 23:5). He quoted from Exodus.

C.H.H. I was wondering whether Acts 26 would be a good indication of suitable feelings that brethren should take on to properly represent God. These are

spiritually ignorant men and here is an opportunity to represent God in the way of feelings for them.

J.T. It is certainly one of the finest chapters as to public testimony that you can get, a man calling attention to what he was -- his own state; not to what he was saying, but to what he was. He was in a happy state. Nothing affects people more than your own state when you are speaking.

T.S. As a representative he stretched out his hand. It would look like a matter of his heart, would you say?

J.T. "All the day long I have stretched out my hands" Paul quotes of God in Romans 10:21. But at the end of the chapter it is a question of what he was. Stretching out the hand would be appealing. Paul seemed to have a sign of his own; he made a sign with his hand at Antioch of Pisidia, Acts 13:16.

W.L. Would you say that there are degrees of representation? One can only be what he is.

J.T. Whatever little representation there may be, if you give only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, it is of value, Matthew 10:42. Now as to Miriam, we have not time to give much attention to her, but Exodus 15:20, 21 says, "And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took the tambour in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambours and with dances. And Miriam answered them, Sing to Jehovah, for he is highly exalted: The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea". Here she is entitled, "the prophetess;" she is the sister of Aaron. Whether she and Aaron were together in their younger days, and how she acquired the state of a prophetess is not named. If a sister is to have a place in leadership, she appears according to what she is -- Miriam is seen as a prophetess. She represents God in some measure in prophecy. That is an honourable title for a sister. If she is already known as speaking the words of God certainly she must be heard.

G.A.T. When and where is she supposed to be heard?

J.T. There are restrictions or limits in the New Testament as to a woman prophesying. She is not told not to prophesy, but she is told to do it with her head covered. She is not to speak in the assembly or with her head uncovered. But if she is a prophetess she is to be heard; if she prophesies she is to be listened to. If sisters are to have a lead among the brethren, let them speak the words of God. There are plenty of words, but it is a question of speaking the words of God.

Rem. Miriam was one of the four women who had to do with the introduction of this great vessel -- Moses.

J.T. Her name is not mentioned but undoubtedly she is the "sister" who helped to preserve her infant brother. She was a young girl of tact and energy. Now she is introduced to us as a prophetess, the sister of a well-known servant.

J.D. Moral and spiritual capabilities enter into Acts 21, where we read that Philip had four daughters who prophesied. Would the idea of virginity enter into sisters prophesying?

J.T. Surely; but as just remarked, they are not supposed to speak in the assembly: "I suffer not a woman to teach" (1 Timothy 2:12), and, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies" (1 Corinthians 14:34). But 1 Corinthians 11:5 clearly states that if a woman prophesies her head is to be covered. Then the reason is given, "but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God". That is, she is before the public; it is a question of God's order in creation and she is to have her head covered.

A.A.T. Miriam's service here is connected with singing. Is that a point?

J.T. That is the next thing, what she does. We have her identity, and she is a qualified person, worthy

of mention. You get throughout Scripture women who are worthy of mention, holy women, as they are called in the New Testament. She is one of them, a sister of Aaron, and a leader in Israel. Now she is taking a leading part in the service of God not attempting to bring in her own composition. What is said is simply that she took a tambour in her hand, and all the women went after her, which would mean that she was influential in the right direction, a very important matter. She was influential in misleading her brother later, but she was influential among the women in doing what was right here, and they do what she does. It says, "Sing to Jehovah, for he is highly exalted: The horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea". That is just the refrain from the first verse. She not only sings, but she appeals to others to sing also. She is simply augmenting what has already been done by Moses and the children of Israel. She is simply taking part in the refrain, and answers them in this way so that the service of God is augmented, but in just the measure of those words. She is not really adding anything to what Moses said, but she is singing, using these words; she is being used in the service, and she and the other women represent here the measure of the state of Israel in their service Godward at that time.

C.A.M. In Psalm 68:11 it says, "The Lord gives the word: great the host of the publishers". Mr. Darby's footnote says the publishers are women, and he refers to this chapter. There is a large sphere of service in that way.

J.T. It is a beautiful jewel set here as to what is called subjective conditions among us. You might compose a hymn and sing it and the brethren join in, but the question is the extent of the measure of the subjective state, and I believe these women represent that here.

J.H. There are two other women spoken of as

prophetesses -- Deborah and Huldah. They seem to have had great influence with the people and great support with the leaders of the day. Does that come into this?

J.T. It is opening up a door to the sisters. It is the order in which they serve. She appeals, "Sing to Jehovah". She takes up what is there, but it is a beautiful finish to what is there. That is what is seen, a beautiful finish in the measure of the subjective conditions.

J.S. Does singing and dancing involve great spiritual agility?

J.T. Quite so, and the women follow her.

A.E.H. Do you think that what she says here about the horse and rider suggests that she had come through all the exercise of the overthrow of that system? All that entered into her experience. In type she had been in all the exercises of the assembly.

J.T. It is the confirmation of the male side, the full intelligent representation of the matter in the song; in the subjective or feminine finish there is a real state behind the singing; only in a small measure. The sisters are all brought into it. It is a very beautiful suggestion as to how leadership in the service of God is to proceed. It is alternate singing. They are all brought into it in a subjective sense. There is feminine feeling in it. Dancing is a type of spiritual agility; it is a remarkable expression of musical feeling.

Ques. Would you suggest that what is spoken by women would bear more on the feeling side than on teaching?

J.T. I think it does. That is what is meant here. Miriam uses the very words of Moses, but in the service there is a beautiful subjective touch and the women fall into it, and as answering, there is response.

C.H.H. Would that be seen in Luke 8? There you get women with substance who ministered to the Lord.

J.T. Just so, all arising from chapter 7; the woman there loved much. She had what was needed to minister to Christ.

A.P.T. No doubt the sisters at Corinth needed help, as to leadership, chapter 11 so as to have part in the service.

LEADERSHIP (4)

Numbers 3:32; Numbers 4:16; Numbers 16:36 - 40; Numbers 19:1 - 4

J.T. Eleazar is our subject this afternoon. Eleazar became high priest as his father died, but the passages read do not allude to him as high priest; his father is still living, so we have to consider him from the standpoint of being a feature of priesthood, not representing the whole idea. As recorded in Numbers 20, his father dies and he becomes high priest, and then, of course, he presents the priesthood fully and his service runs along with that of Moses and Joshua; but these passages contemplate him as subordinate. Yet a peculiar and essential feature of priesthood is worked out in him in this position, made clear from the meaning of his name, which is 'the help of God', or 'God helps'. The more spiritual features of priesthood are seen in him applying first to the Levites as a whole; he is seen as "the prince of princes of the Levites" (Numbers 3:32), alluding to his moral greatness. He is over certain things in chapter 4, "the oversight of the oil for the light, and the fragrant incense, and the continual oblation, and the anointing oil, -- the oversight of the whole tabernacle, and of all that is therein, over the sanctuary, and over its furniture". He is, therefore, a remarkable person as having to see to the most sacred and exalted things of God, in fact the whole tabernacle in which God dwells; and yet his father is living. We have to learn by these facts, and I hope we shall -- how he represents a special service that enters into the service of God in the most sacred and precious way by affording 'help' always; as much as to say, we have the general thought, but we can always reckon on this influence which extends and expands as it goes on. The expression "prince of princes" reminds us at once of a personality, the word prince denoting that, adding to what already exists, adding dignity and greatness and glory, affording

help always, never retarding the progress of the service of God. It may be remarked that Eleazar has very little place in Exodus, Leviticus or Deuteronomy; his service is practically all in Numbers. That is, it is the movement side, the carrying side; the service goes on in spite of great obstacles and opposition, so that there is always the assurance of help, we can always reckon on it.

L.E.S. Would the principle seen in Hebrews 10:9: "He takes away the first that he may establish the second", apply here as to the first two sons being taken?

J.T. Yes; Nadab and Abihu suffer judgment according to Leviticus 10, and Eleazar comes into more responsibility there so that the weakened priesthood would be enhanced. The loss of these two would be felt, as the chapter teaches; Aaron and the other sons would feel the serious breakdown that had taken place. The chapter shows that the sin was divinely pressed home on them. Eleazar, as seen in Numbers, no doubt indicates the gain of the pressure and exercise. In him personality is brought out and priesthood is greatly enhanced.

C.H.H. In Revelation 1:5 the Lord is spoken of as "the prince of the kings of the earth".

J.T. That is the idea. It is to be noted in Ezekiel in the person of David in view of millennial times.

A.E.H. Is personality a matter connected with sovereignty, or is it a question of learning to adapt oneself to the society in which one lives?

J.T. In divine things it is developed in relation to God, that is, it begins with Jacob who was made weak by God. He was made strong first and proved his strength in wrestling with the angel and prevailing. He would not let the angel go until he blessed him; Jacob must have blessing, that is the principle of a prince. He has power with God and with men.

W.L. Would Eleazar be more on the moral side, whereas Aaron would suggest the official side in priesthood?

J.T. Yes, Aaron is the official priest. Eleazar is often called "the son of Aaron". He comes in here in chapter 3 where the Levites are classified according to their services, where they are seen receiving their charges. "Prince of princes of the Levites" is a remarkable title.

G.A.T. Why did you call our attention to the fact that his father was still alive?

J.T. Well, his service is not official. We are not dealing with him officially, but in what he is personally. It alludes in the antitype to the personality developed by the Spirit in the assembly. The presence of this element would secure blessing. I think God is showing us how it works out in meetings for fellowship and ministry; almost universally we get blessing.

C.A.M. Does Romans 16 suggest this sort of priestly consideration? Those in that chapter are referred to as helpers and so on. The apostle cites a number who are carrying things, and they had help and were helps in their service.

J.T. Paul attested that certain were helpers of himself.

A.R. Do you mean to say the element of help is greater today than it was twenty-five years ago?

J.T. Well, I do not want to make it too personal in that way, but I think that in current meetings of the saints help from God is unfailing. There has been promotion of universal contact giving more scope to the Spirit, so that the Levites who can help, not simply those who go out to preach but those who can really help in the things of God, in divine teaching, are increasing. Surely God alone is to be thanked.

J.T.Jr. "There were many lights in the upper room" (Acts 20:8). Would what you are saying suggest the upper room at Troas?

J.T. Yes. There were those present who represented the work of God through Paul in different sections; seven persons are mentioned who were products of his work from different parts. They were there with him and he is now speaking. Luke says, "We being assembled to break bread ... there were many lights in the upper room". I think that is what is alluded to, the product of the work was there adding to the position. Their presence would add to Paul's ministry -- affording 'help'.

J.S. Taking it as a type, are princely features being acquired?

J.T. I think so. The princely idea begins with Jacob who says, "I will not let thee go except thou bless me" (Genesis 32:26). The determination that God approves of obtained the blessing.

Ques. You could not have princeliness without having the whole tabernacle in view, could you? You have alluded to the past: at one time there were many special lists among the brethren, some for instance that only preached the gospel and had little regard for the whole tabernacle.

J.T. Yes. They declined certain other services, whereas Eleazar is over the whole system. He is "prince of princes of the Levites", and then he has the oversight of the whole tabernacle system; so that he would see to it that the Levites attended to their service, which had the whole tabernacle in mind. Officially it would be his father's matter, but moral power is suggested in Eleazar.

J.D. Referring to our brother's point, Exodus 7:1, 2 says, "And it came to pass on the day that Moses had completed the setting up of the tabernacle, and had anointed it, and hallowed it, and all the furniture thereof, and the altar and all its utensils, and had anointed them, and hallowed them, that the princes of Israel, the heads of their fathers' houses, the princes of the tribes, they

that were over them that had been numbered, offered". Would that be the idea of having in the present day the abstract thought of the whole tabernacle system and princes maintaining it?

J.T. Just so. These were princes of Israel, men of wealth in the sense of giving. The Levites had princes too, over which Eleazar was.

A.B. Chapter 3 suggests the persons: "he had the oversight of them that kept the charge of the sanctuary". It seems to be more things in chapter 4 -- the oil for the light, the fragrant incense, and so forth.

J.T. Well, the first thing is the persons as you say, "prince of princes of the Levites". Eleazar had the oversight of them and they kept the charge of the sanctuary. In chapter 4 we have things, the oversight of the oil for the light alluding to the Spirit, to see that room is made for the Spirit; and the fragrant incense for God, and the continual oblation. These are the most precious things that he is over, included in "the oversight of the whole tabernacle, and of all that is therein, over the sanctuary, and over its furniture". He, therefore, would influence all sections related to the service of God. He realises that he needs help, his name means 'help of God'. You can reckon on that.

A.B. Would that be in mind in Hebrews 13:7 where it says, "Remember your leaders"? The verse says, "taking courage, we may say, The Lord is my helper", the principle of Eleazar carried forward.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. According to Exodus 6, he comes in as a third of the four sons. Is there any point in that -- being the third member in the family?

J.T. Well, the genealogy is given in view of Aaron and Moses. We have, "And Aaron took Elisheba, daughter of Amminadab, sister of Nahshon, as wife; and she bore him Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar" (Exodus 6:23). The third, you mean, would

have a thought of something reached, as with Enoch, the seventh from Adam. His place is stressed in that sense. There is something reached and then the genealogy runs on, "And Eleazar Aaron's son took one of the daughters of Putiel as wife; and she bore him Phinehas". So that it is an outstanding line, a branch of Aaron's family. Eleazar and Phinehas -- God is, I think, calling attention in the records to these two men.

C.H.H. Would the third chapter answer to Romans, and the fourth chapter to Colossians in the tabernacle system?

J.T. Well, I think the elevated character of the things mentioned would go further than those epistles -- to Ephesians. The Levites would be in mind as in Romans in those who help. Colossians contemplates personality in the service, especially in prayer, so that Paul agonised for the Colossians although he had never seen them. They must have been helped through priestly intercession for them of the Eleazar character. And prayer is greatly stressed in Ephesians.

Rem. There is a reference to Eleazar in 1 Chronicles 24:4, "And there were more head-men found of the sons of Eleazar than of the sons of Ithamar, and thus were they divided".

J.T. That is a good reference. The line is greatly stressed, especially through the son, Phinehas. Now we come to the personalities, first, those of the Levites; this element of priesthood we are considering takes special account of persons. We have the three families of the Levites enumerated; as we look at them we shall see how the persons come into evidence and what they have to do. They are all under Eleazar. Being a great personality himself he would have regard for other personalities, subordinates: for the princes of the Levites, and then for the whole family of the Levites. Then we have these precious things which are essential to our service. There would not be any want of light

on a matter with this priestly element present, no rationing of the oil, plenty of room made for the Spirit as shedding light on things. One brother after another may speak and light is shed on the position. At Corinth the first thing about which Paul remonstrates with them involved leaders; each selected his own leader, Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc. Later he says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" (1 Corinthians 3:16). That is how things are solved -- not by partisan influences.

A.P.T. In Acts 15 James says, "listen to me". Would that be any help on this line? Would that bring light to bear on the present position?

J.T. Yes, and James would be a prince. He alludes to Peter, one may say, as a prince: "Simon has related", he says, and now, "Listen to me", and he cites David. That is, light is thrown in on the matter. "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us" is the conclusion reached, Acts 15:28. The letter written to the gentile believers brought the Spirit in -- it involved the Spirit.

J.D. The result of it was that "it seemed good to the apostles and to the elders, with the whole assembly, to send chosen men from among them with Paul and Barnabas to Antioch, Judas called Barsabas and Silas, leading men among the brethren, having by their hand written thus" (Acts 15:22, 23); a good result, showing a priestly administrative spirit.

J.T. I think that occasion in the Acts brought out the princes, men who acted nobly. Certain gave Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship. They were pillars standing by the truth in a personal way. Victory was reached -- for the truth and unity; so that the letter defeated the wicked one, and the Holy Spirit had part in it. "Our beloved Barnabas and Paul". "Leading men among the brethren;" such are fine expressions.

A.R. There has been ministry of late about everything being done in the dignity of the anointing. Would

that be Eleazar's service? Whether a brother stands up to read the Scriptures, or whatever is done, the power of the anointing should be there.

J.T. I think that is good, everything should be by the anointing, adding to the dignity of the moment. The Lord stood up to read and another handed Him the book; He read by selection and sat down. The eyes of all that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him. Divine dignity was there.

A.R. That is the passage I was thinking of. It says, "the Spirit of the Lord is upon me". Everything should take character from the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Quite so, He is anointed. I suppose that is the idea, that our meetings would all take on this feature of the priesthood. If we have difficulties and questions -- what day we shall have our various meetings, and such matters -- this feature of the priesthood enters into all that. It is not exactly what is commanded, but what priestly feelings would recognise as right and what is known to be advantageous. You can test what is proposed by experience.

G.A.T. Would you say a word as to what the dignity of the anointing means to us?

J.T. It is the Spirit. "No one, speaking in the power of the Spirit of God, says, Curse on Jesus; and no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit". That is the idea. That is 1 Corinthians 12:3, and in that chapter the assembly itself is called "the Christ", that is, the anointed vessel. Everyone is speaking in the Spirit.

J.H. Referring to these leading men among the brethren -- Judas and Silas -- it says in Acts 15:25, 26, "it seemed good to us ... to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". Were these men who were giving up their lives -- Barnabas, Paul, Judas and Silas -- princes?

J.T. I would take them all to be princes. The element represented in Eleazar would be especially seen in Paul in all that chapter. Paul and Titus were there (Galatians 2), and Paul said those at Jerusalem did not insist on Titus being circumcised. He was calling attention to the manifest expression of the work of God that was in Titus; he was a levitical prince that could not be excelled in Jerusalem. Why should they insist on circumcision? They did not do it because of the power that was in Titus. The spiritual power in the brother overcame the legal spirit, the Judaean spirit; that is what Eleazar would mean, the princely power among the brethren. You do not even need to quote a scripture, the power is there.

F.N.W. Would there be the danger of the clerical principle intruding in relation to the oversight of the oil?

J.T. I think the clerical principle according to Galatians would grieve the Spirit and shut Him out. That is what the apostle is working against. The princes would all disappear if there is not room made for the Holy Spirit if the oil is 'rationed'. The work of God among the gentiles is great, and there is Titus: you cannot bring forth one in Jerusalem more representative of the work of God than he. So that the brethren there did not insist that he should be circumcised.

Ques. Is the reference in 1 Timothy, elders taking care of the assembly of God, on this level?

J.T. I think so. The suggestion is that one aspires to the position of an overseer, but then he must have the needed qualifications, and these would be princely.

L.E.S. Would Paul's word to Timothy in the second epistle, "the same commit thou to faithful men", bear on this in connection with the service of Zadok later on?

J.T. No doubt Zadok is a continuance of the line.

His sons will be the priests in the millennium -- the princely time; that will be the time of princes.

F.C. Do you think that the word in Titus by Paul bears on this? He speaks of "the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3:6, 7); that is, the pouring out on us would emphasise this.

J.T. It is the lavishness of the Holy Spirit; plenty of it poured out.

Ques. Did Peter act in a princely way when he went with the brethren to Cornelius? Was he not in princely power there? The Holy Spirit fell on those assembled; there was a great outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Quite so, particularly when you come to Peter's preaching. The Spirit fell on those who heard the word. I think it was heaven honouring them at the moment, the gentile being brought into the greatness already there. Peter would say, I recall what happened at Pentecost -- the pouring out abundantly of the Holy Spirit, which "fell upon them even as upon us".

J.H.E. Even as Peter walked, his shadow would bring results; and napkins taken from Paul would bring results as having been in contact with him.

J.T. Paul had in mind in Ephesus (Acts 19), that the work should begin in a princely way. There were twelve men there, and he made inquiry, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" That is Eleazar, that is his service, the oversight of the oil for the light, and the fragrant incense, and the continual oblation, and the anointing oil. This inquiry was in accord with Eleazar's service. It was not simply converts Paul was seeking, persons who simply confessed the Lord, but those who would take on princely character and qualities. Philip's work in Samaria came short of that. The Samaritans were rejoicing in the light they had, but the oil awaited Peter and John.

A.R. If we understood this verse in chapter 4 would it deliver us from local or sectional practices? Eleazar is over the whole tabernacle system and thus what is done is universal in character.

J.T. Yes, there must be universality in things that are done. No local rules are to be brought in. Everything is to be in keeping with what is universal. I think that would enter into what we are saying.

A.R. There is no such thing as a parish assigned to a Levite, is there?

J.T. He stands related to the whole tabernacle system and Eleazar is over it, which means he is attending to the matter of the light and the Holy Spirit.

T.W.D. Do you think that the scripture in the Song of Songs, "Perfumed with myrrh and frankincense", would be an Eleazar feature? It says, "Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness?" (Song of Songs 3:6). Is not that a Numbers' setting?

J.T. It is. All the grime of the wilderness is out of sight. Eleazar tends to that so that we present ourselves aright in the assembly.

T.S. You mentioned the fact that Eleazar's service was carried on when there was movement. Would that mean that it called for greater care and watchfulness?

J.T. Well, you can understand how the parts of the tabernacle would become damaged as they were being taken down and set up. The grime of the wilderness would have to be met. And so it is, "Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness?" She is attired suitably for Christ; He is supreme there. Not that they did not rest at times in the wilderness according to Numbers, but characteristically there was movement. It is remarkable that Eleazar's service is almost wholly in the book of Numbers.

W.L. Is that why the priestly thought underlies what is levitical? Eleazar was the son of Aaron the priest, not the son of Aaron the Levite.

J.T. Well, that runs through. He was the third in the family, as remarked; the first two die, showing that the great burden of the exercise would develop him. I believe special priestly features are contemplated in Eleazar so that we have him presented in Numbers in this way. He must fill up the void; two are lost, and he and Ithamar were a sort of remnant idea, Aaron's "sons that were left" (Leviticus 10:12). The more you realise the remnant idea the more dependent you are on God and the more things are worked out in you. God helps you, that is, 'Eleazar'. In addition to the anointing oil, there is "the oversight of the whole tabernacle and of all that is therein, over the sanctuary, and over its furniture;" so that provision is made for the Spirit and for other things as well.

W.L. Is this not especially necessary today, a remnant time?

J.T. It is, because, as you say, we are in remnant times; "the continual oblation", the personality of Christ, to keep that in evidence. I believe that is one of the greatest things in this revival -- that everything is attended to. The Lord is insisting that everything must be attended to that belongs to the tabernacle, and extraneous things must be refused.

H.B. Is that why the light is the first thing mentioned?

J.T. The light is the first thing. It is light from the oil, not from the letter of the Scripture, but from the oil.

A.E.H. There seems to be an element of recovery in Eleazar's service in chapter 16, recovering the censers out of the burning.

J.T. We are going on to that. This is a wonderful matter that we are dealing with, especially here, in that it comes in in connection with what was left of the priesthood. In Leviticus 10:12 it says, "And Moses spoke to Aaron, and to Eleazar and to Ithamar, his

sons that were left". That is what I was thinking of, that applies to remnant times -- what is left. Something has happened and the burden of all this is now on the third son. Of course Ithamar had his part, but Eleazar functioned in a much greater way. In Enoch's time it was the seventh, but this is the third, I believe there is something in that. This is a turning point in Israel. Aaron's services were more restricted after this. The priesthood had failed, but the great service committed to Eleazar indicates that he gained through the sorrow.

Rem. It is easy to see that as the Eleazar side of the service is functioning there will be more for God in the service of the sanctuary.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. God has been helping us for many years, even in the times of the revival, in stressing the oil, that is, the Holy Spirit. It is largely a question if there is anything good; we must carry on only what is according to the Scripture; we must make room for the Spirit. There is insistence on the recovery of the truth of the Spirit. "Do you not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" Let us work on those lines. That is what Eleazar would insist on. So the apostle insists on the Spirit in 1 Corinthians.

W.L. Does it suggest, too, that there need be no let-down even in remnant times?

J.T. That is the idea in those "that are left". Eleazar would insist on the oil for the light, and the fragrant incense, something for the nostrils of God. Exodus lays down what these things are, but Eleazar would insist on their use in the service.

A.M. Acts 8 says there were believers in Samaria, but the apostles had to go there and pray before they received the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Yes. At Ephesus Paul attended to that himself, he made it the first thing. He inquires, What about the

Spirit? The disciples of John had certain light, but he says, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" (Acts 19:2). They say, We did not hear about Him. The Eleazar service had been absent and Paul brought the truth in, and the light, making way for the oil: so that they got the Spirit. The matter was settled there, but at Samaria Philip did not settle it; he did not raise that question. Many evangelists -- so-called -- have neglected that side; the Glanton exercise in result stressed that side of the matter; since then the Lord has specially helped us to make room for the Spirit.

L.E.S. The insistence on the Spirit in Revelation 2 and 3 would be basic in regard of the recovery, would it not? It is what the Spirit says to the assemblies.

J.T. Room is made for the Spirit and He is speaking. If room is made for Him, He will be speaking. Our brother raises the question of Samaria: why did not Philip mention the Spirit? He did not, and in the interim before the Spirit was given, the oil brought in, Simon Magus acquired a place, a big man after the flesh; and when the Spirit was given he suggested that it could be bought with money. He perverted the truth, whereas the Spirit coming in would have shut out this man altogether. Peter says, "Thy money go with thee to destruction" (Acts 8:20). It is a question of refusing what is extraneous to the position.

J.T.Jr. Would there be a similar matter in the room made for Tobijah in Nehemiah 13? Instead of making room for the Spirit as a priest should, Eliashib made room for Tobijah.

J.T. Quite so, that is a good reference. The priest's business should be looking out for the Spirit and making room for Him.

J.H.E. What does John mean when he says, "try the spirits"? Is there a possibility that other spirits may seek to take the place of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Clearly. So Paul gives you tests and so does John. He indicates what marks the Spirit of God, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God" (1 John 4:1, 2). That is his test. Paul says, "no one, speaking in the power of the Spirit of God, says, Curse on Jesus; and no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3). That is a severe test. There is hardly time for much more, but this is a wonderful passage, this matter of the oil for the light, the fragrant incense, and the continual oblation. Eleazar would insist on the personality of Jesus: that is the oblation before God, "Jesus Christ come in flesh" -- that is the meat offering.

J.S. Paul says in 2 Timothy, "But Tychicus I have sent to Ephesus". Does that apply?

J.T. Just so. The fact is his whole service is marked by this Eleazar spirit, looking after things for God, the most precious things cared for. And the anointing oil is distinct from the oil for the light. Oil for light is one thing, but oil for anointing is another. It is the Spirit in both cases, but the anointing is outward dignity.

C.A.M. Did I understand you to say that the oil for the light refers to the ministry? It is like a candlestick throwing light on the greatness of Christ.

J.T. Quite so.

J.W.D. Whereas in regard to the oblation, oil and fragrant incense would be connected with that. What would you say about that?

J.T. Well, the oblation would imply all that. Eleazar would see to all that. The incense also accompanied the lighting of the lamps. The oblation refers to Christ, His personality, whether here in the flesh,

or in the forty days, or as He is now. And then it is oversight of "the whole tabernacle, and of all that is therein, over the sanctuary, and over its furniture". Nothing is left out of all that pertains to the tabernacle. The priests "that were left" applies to our own times, remnant times. Thus there are those who can attend to all these matters.

Then going on to chapter 16, we have a very interesting bit of service as to the censers that Korah and his company had used. "And Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, that he take up the censers out of the burning; and scatter the fire afar; for they are hallowed, the censers of these sinners who have forfeited their life; and they shall make them into broad plates for the covering of the altar; for they presented them before Jehovah, therefore they are hallowed; and they shall be a sign unto the children of Israel. And Eleazar the priest took the copper censers, which they that were burnt had presented; and they were made broad plates for a covering of the altar; as a memorial to the children of Israel, that no stranger who is not of the seed of Aaron come near to burn incense before Jehovah, that he be not as Korah, and as his band, -- as Jehovah had said to him through Moses" (verses 36 - 40). I think it is a most remarkable service. It applies peculiarly to our own times because this rebellion of Korah and his band is christendom; it is rebellion against Christ as the Apostle and High Priest of our confession. What they used in their opposition was in itself right, the things were hallowed and used, and not to be forfeited. Their lives were forfeited because of their rebellion, but it brings out that right things do not lose their rightness by being used by alien hands. What is of God is to be gathered and secured as witness. However it has been used in christendom, whatever is of God must be maintained all down through the ages. It is to be

gathered and secured. So that I think this remarkable testimony should be among us. We should never allow clericalism among us, but whatever of God that has been used by it should be preserved.

J.H. In what way do you say the censers were hallowed?

J.T. Well, they were hallowed in that they were used. The fact of the matter is, the truth has been carried on in these hands; it has not lost, the truth is the truth, the Bible is the Bible. Many things that have been used in a lawless way will not lose their value, as in themselves of God they retain their value. The spirit of Eleazar will see that they are not lost, but brought in and used at the altar.

J.H. What do you say about these 250 men being princes of the assembly?

J.T. Their princely position, no doubt, led them to believe they could join successfully in Korah's band against Moses and Aaron. Being princes, "men of renown", they had distinction and lent great weight to the rebellion. In the history of the assembly, especially at the outset of general clerical leadership in which Christ's authority and the presence among the saints of the Holy Spirit were, in principle at least, set aside, this movement was seen in antitype. That is not what the early leaders among the saints were like. "Remember your leaders", we are told, but they were not like that. But the subsequent leaders are described in Acts 20:30, "from among your own selves shall rise up men speaking perverted things to draw away the disciples after them". They turned away and rebelled against the truth. These censers were hallowed as in use. In christendom up to the time of the revival it was not, in some sense, open apostasy; there was something in it. The point here is that the censers are gathered up and used as a testimony for all time against lawlessness.

Ques. Would you on that principle accept the baptism performed by a clergyman?

J.T. I should indeed, even if it is by a Roman Catholic priest -- assuming that the words employed were expressive of the truth.

Rem. Balaam used the altar and rams and bullocks in connection with Balak's desires, but the things were right in themselves.

J.T. The most beautiful prophecies came from a man who said he would never see the Lord. What he said God caused him to say.

A.R. These censers were moulded together into broad plates. It was apparently in view of keeping persons from coming near to the altar.

J.T. That is, that Korah's conduct should never be repeated. "That no stranger who is not of the seed of Aaron come near to burn incense before Jehovah". Antitypically this means that no one who has not the Holy Spirit should serve as priest.

G.D. Was there an attempt on the part of king Uzziah to do what Korah had done when he went into the sanctuary to burn incense and was stopped by the priests?

J.T. Yes, that was the sort of thing. It was one who was not a priest. These men were not priests; they were Levites, just men having to teach or to preach and they presumed to act as priests. Such men become trained at schools and colleges, become 'ordained', acquire a 'flock' and act as priests. Many of them have not the Spirit of God. That is exactly what marks christendom. Such a man acting in the office of a priest is setting aside the apostleship and priesthood of Christ and the Spirit of God.

J.H.E. In going out of Egypt God allowed the children of Israel to take things with them that were used in the tabernacle. They were right things, were they not?

J.T. Utensils -- silver and gold; and so in Jericho the metals were preserved. These were not gifted men really, but they based their claim on that; they claimed the priesthood, the position of Aaron. So that christendom is full of priests. The clergy generally are called priests. But they set aside the true priesthood -- believers who have the Spirit. Believers are a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 2:5.

A.R. In the days of Uzziah the priests burned incense before God on the altar, and they would allow none other to do so. Would that be an Eleazar feature?

J.T. Exactly. They were very bold too; they forced the king out. Indeed he left himself. His evil was exposed to himself, which is important.

J.D. The point comes out in Numbers 16:40 that the broad plates were made "as a memorial to the children of Israel". The divine idea of representation is kept up and this is a witness of God's judgment.

J.T. Upon any who would act as Korah did. We have had that sort of thing since the revival; the movement in Plymouth involved clericalism, and the leader morally under the sure government of God suffered. God does not change His mind about things in the remnant.

Now a word about chapter 19, the red heifer, something that you might expect to fit in under this service: that is, the wilderness and how it is met in Christ. Christ was different from men in this world, manifestly different. The colour undoubtedly has an allusion to that. "And Jehovah spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, This is the statute of the law which Jehovah hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without blemish, wherein is no defect, and upon which never came yoke; and ye shall give it to Eleazar the priest, and he shall bring it outside the camp, and one

shall slaughter it before him. And Eleazar the priest shall take of its blood with his finger, and shall sprinkle of its blood directly before the tent of meeting seven times. And one shall burn the heifer before his eyes; its skin and its flesh, and its blood, with its dung, shall he burn" (Numbers 19:1 - 5). It is a subjective allusion because it is a heifer, a female. It is a question of the state of the saints, and Eleazar would deal with that in bringing in and enforcing the death of Christ as it is viewed in this remarkable type; an unusual type, not only because it is a female, but because of the unusual colour -- red.

C.A.M. The altar is not stressed here.

J.T. It is not mentioned. The provision here is for the saints rather than for God. However, God's claims are recognised in the sprinkled blood. "Eleazar the priest shall take of its blood with his finger, and shall sprinkle of its blood directly before the tent of meeting seven times". It is a question of keeping the relations of the people right with God; it is the tent of meeting, not the altar. The whole position would be affected by worldliness in the people -- defilement through contact with a dead person. It is no question of doctrine now or of open lawlessness as in chapter 16; but of uncleanness through touching the dead body of a man. The heifer is a subjective idea, it suggests the need of a state suitable to God. The water of purification is provided in this remarkable way and if one becomes unclean as stated, and fails to purify himself as prescribed, his case is most serious -- "that soul shall be cut off from Israel".

F.N.W. Would Eleazar's service seen here link with Micah 6:4, 5 -- Eleazar acting in relation to worldly principles?

J.T. It would. That was the kind of thing that was dealt with after Balaam's prophecy, after the great light that came in through Balaam. Micah 6:5 says, "My people, remember now what

Balak king of Moab consulted, and what Balaam the son of Beor answered him, from Shittim unto Gilgal, that ye may know the righteousness of Jehovah". 'Righteousnesses' is really the word, it is plural. It is how God came in in relation to Balaam and Balak when it was in mind to corrupt the people through Balaam's counsel. God answers him and overthrows this principle of worldliness, of mixing with others, of mixed marriages and social links: "that ye may know the righteousness of Jehovah". This would enter into the service of Eleazar here in meeting the state of worldliness by this remarkable type of Christ -- the red heifer, alluding to the subjective condition of the saints. There is a means of cleansing set there permanently in the ashes of the heifer with the running water; that is the means of cleansing, and unforgivable aggravation of the evil is in the refusal to use it. "That soul shall be cut off from the midst of the congregation, for he hath defiled the sanctuary of Jehovah: the water of separation hath not been sprinkled on him". There are two periods mentioned, three days and seven days, verse 12. We alluded to three in connection with Eleazar, but here it requires seven also; seven is the complete exercise. It is a subjective matter, and if one is defiled through evil associations he has to go through solemn exercises before God, judging the state involved, as feeling it, for seven days. He must purify himself with the water of separation on the third day and on the seventh day.

A.E.H. We hear it said sometimes that we cannot deal with state, we can only deal with overt acts that are the result of state. But what you are suggesting is that the person involved does deal with the state.

J.T. He does. The person that is defiled has to deal with it, and if he does not he is cut off. That is the point in this chapter. The death of Christ as attested in the fullest priestly way -- in the power of the

Spirit -- is available, and one who is unclean and fails to use it must be cut off. It is most solemn.

J.S. This all emphasises the uniqueness of Christ.

J.T. Yes, there is no one like Him. How manifestly different from men of this world He is!

G.D. Would that come into the Lord's prayer in John 17 as He takes account of the saints as not of this world, though in it?

J.T. Just so. He says, with the deepest feeling, "Righteous Father, -- and the world has not known thee" (John 17:25). The Lord felt that. So John says in his first epistle, "Love not the world, nor the things in the world ... all that is in the world ... is not of the Father" (1 John 2:15, 16).

J.D. Would John seek to touch the feelings of the saints to draw them to Christ when he says, "This is he that came by water and blood?" Would that have in view the appreciation of Christ in this character?

J.T. Quite so. John saw the blood and water flow from the side of the Saviour and the Spirit bears witness. All that would be, so to speak, Eleazar's part. Eleazar, as a type, enters much into John's ministry.

J.H. Another distinctive feature is, "upon which never came yoke". What do you say about that?

J.T. That would mean that Christ never came under the yoke of men or the world: He never came under adverse influence. He was infinitely free for the maintenance of the will of God; always doing the things that are pleasing to the Father, (John 8:29).

H.B. Hebrews says, "holy, harmless, undefiled, separated from sinners".

J.T. That is right, "Such a high priest became us" (Hebrews 7:26).

LEADERSHIP (5)

Exodus 17:8 - 16; Exodus 33:11; Numbers 13:16; Numbers 27:15 - 23

J.T. These passages contemplate Joshua before he became an official leader, so that they afford instruction for the younger brethren who as yet may not be definitely recognised in the exercise of what ability they may have. These scriptures indicate how young men qualify for the ministry and in due course become, in part at least, recognised in a spiritual sense. Exodus 17 contains the first mention of Joshua, and it is clear that he had already acquired the confidence of Moses. Moses seemed to have no hesitation in appointing him to the service in mind, leaving it with him to choose the men who were to fight Amalek, an important charge, but only temporary. He was not made commander-in-chief of the armies of Israel. He was selected for this particular battle and obviously was successful; and not only so, but it is indicated that he should have in his mind, permanently, the facts of the battle. Moses was to rehearse it to him. "And Jehovah said to Moses, Write this for a memorial in the book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua". The article being placed before the word 'book' shows that it was one already existent. The instruction is for the younger men. In these meetings we have had considerable instruction for the older ones, but Joshua and Eleazar represent younger men acting and serving and even leading whilst their elders were still living. They both became leaders before the more official leaders of Israel died. It is a question of how they qualify in leadership, in such service.

Ques. In Numbers 1:18 where the young men are called up from 20 years old it says, "they declared their pedigrees after their families". Would that be in line with what you have in mind?

J.T. The allusion would be to believers who have the Spirit, the time of manhood; not full grown manhood

not fully developed, but coming to it. In Numbers 27 Joshua is regarded by Jehovah as a man who has the Spirit characteristically. We hope to come to that because it is the main point. Moses expressed the need of the moment to Jehovah and Jehovah knew the man. Moses knew him too but did not nominate him. He nominated him for the battle of Rephidim, but not here. He himself is about to die. God has told him that he is about to die, and he is concerned about who should take on the work, a matter which is always a concern to any who are in it, because the position of all servants is transitory.

F.N.W. Moses and Aaron, Miriam and Eleazar were of the tribe of Levi. Joshua is from Ephraim. Is that significant?

J.T. It is not a question of priesthood; he is the successor of Moses in leadership. He is styled the attendant of Moses in his own book at the beginning.

A.R. I used to think that this conflict was confined to younger men, yet Moses says to Joshua, "Choose us men, and go out, fight". What do you say about that?

J.T. Well, it is the first great battle with the Amalekites and it involves the whole position. That is Satan in the flesh, and the older are not any more immune in a sense from his influence than the younger. But clearly it is a battle that affects the young men definitely, though the older ones are essential to the success of the conflict as we see in Moses and Aaron and Hur. It is a sort of battle that is always here, always current, or intermittently current, and the young are especially in mind because, even though they may be able to teach or preach, they are apt to come under the power of Satan and the flesh. It is a most serious matter. They are to understand how this character of satanic power is to be met so that they should always be available in the service.

A.E.M. Would the expression "from generation to

generation" imply that every generation would have a kind of crisis, an acute phase of this matter?

J.T. Mr. Darby used to say that, no matter what scripture was being considered at a Bible reading, they always came to the 7th of Romans. That means that this battle was more continuous in his day than in ours; the instruction is always needed.

J.S. How are you viewing leadership this afternoon?

J.T. In a military way, but as just temporary. Joshua is not appointed commander-in-chief of the armies of Israel, but he is selected for the moment. Moses commissions him at once. He says, "Choose us men, and go out, fight with Amalek". He is quite definite about it, and the inference is that Joshua is a known man.

J.D. Coming in here consequent upon the smiting of the rock and the gift of the Spirit, would it involve in Joshua a knowledge of the character of the conflict? The passage says, "Amalek came and fought with Israel in Rephidim;" that was consequent upon the gift of the Spirit. Would that involve that the leader puts himself in touch with any soul in whom, in this sense, the enemy has been active?

J.T. Yes. The thing being rehearsed in his ears by Moses would mean that Joshua would have to do with it again.

C.H.H. Would he have to do with it again in the great occasion recorded in Joshua 10, where Jehovah listened to the voice of a man? That is recorded in the book again.

J.T. Just so. It was recorded in the book of Jasher. That is a very prominent link with our subject. There it is the voice of a man, not a military leader, but a man. The idea in both involves manhood, only we have youthful manhood here. We do not know how old Joshua was, but he is called a young man later.

L.E.S. You referred to the meaning of the name

'Eleazar' in relation to the service yesterday. Would the meaning of 'Joshua' have a bearing on what you had in mind this afternoon?

J.T. I thought it would come up in relation to Numbers 13, but of course he is given his full name here; he did not have this name actually when he fought this battle, but this is Moses writing about the matter later, giving him the full name. 'Jehoshua' means 'Jehovah is Saviour'. He gets it at the time Israel should have entered into Canaan, as if Moses connects this first battle with the many battles in which he would have to lead in the land. The new name is in view of the land. There it is 'Jehovah is Saviour', but here it is the beginning of his service and his name would be just Hoshea -- meaning 'deliverance'.

C.A.M. Moses, Aaron and Hur -- do you look at them subjectively or objectively?

J.T. Aaron and Hur represent certain elements, not simply objective, but operative in us; priestly grace and purity. The intercession on high is in the Lord Himself; Moses really is in an intercessory position on high, only that he has the staff of God. He says, "I will stand on the top of the hill with the staff of God in my hand". So that it is more than priesthood; the kind of service involved is from above, and is more than priesthood. At this stage in the believer's history, that is in young people, there is usually the danger of independency. In this conflict the secret is often the want of subjection. Moses here taking the rod of God would mean that we must be subject, if we are to be victorious. We must have the element of subjection or the enemy will triumph. The conflict refers to Romans 7; the flesh in us, if undetected and unjudged, allows Satan to work through it; we have to judge it. That is what is in mind. As young people we are apt to be more or less independent, and the enemy gets advantage over us. The flesh gets power because of that.

L.E.S. Referring to his name again, it is significant that the name Hoshea means 'deliverance', which would fit in with Romans 7.

J.T. Yes, "who shall deliver me?" But Joshua is a greater thought -- 'Jehovah is Saviour'. "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord" brings in God Himself. The Spirit of liberty as seen in chapter 8 is God seen in the believer in this very connection. It is a question of the power of the Spirit.

J.S. Do you think we have two special features of the testimony introduced here?

J.T. I think Aaron and Hur are just elements in the position; priestly race and purity are in view, particularly the element of purity. It is a question of the flesh and its lust, as the apostle says, "the commandment having come, sin revived, but I died". The "commandment" referred to lust. "Sin, getting a point of attack by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me".

G.A.T. Would Joshua's success depend on Moses' attitude?

J.T. That is exactly what is stated, but he is weak himself. The whole position is to create a state of dependence on God. First of all we are told, "Moses, Aaron and Hur went up to the top of the hill". There is no earlier instruction about that. "And it came to pass when Moses raised his hand, that Israel prevailed; and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed. And Moses' hands were heavy; then they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat on it; and Aaron and Hur supported his hands, one on this side, and one on that side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun". So that it is a very delicate and critical situation. It is intended to create a certain state in us that is to be permanent. This sort of thing is going on from generation to generation, and we must not lose the advantage of Joshua's experience. Every

day brings its own advantage. You overcome today better than you did yesterday, that is, if you are truly in the conflict. So that Joshua represents the kind of military power that is needed to face the enemy in his attacks through the flesh in us; we must not be discouraged with the character of our experience. We are to go on. Thus the victory is assured. God is not giving up. "And he said, For the hand is on the throne of Jah; Jehovah will have war with Amalek from generation to generation". I would take it that the hand would be the enemy's hand. The throne of Jah would point to how fully God is entering into this matter on account of His people. He is not giving up, and we are not to be discouraged by the incessant character of this opposition. Joshua, although a type of Christ here, also in a sense represents the believer in this conflict, and he is not to give up because of difficulties. It is a most critical time. But Moses' "hands were steady until the going down of the sun". The day was won!

J.S. Would the end of Luke fit in here where the Lord's hands were lifted up?

J.T. Well, that is the sort of thing, but there is no weakness there. It is a question of the state of things existent in the saints in these men being brought forward in this way. We have no high priest in Israel yet but we are looking toward it. No doubt the secret of deflections of many young people turning away is that they get overcome with the power of the flesh. They do not face the thing. They make up their minds it is not worth while going through with the matter and they turn away. It is worth while to face the matter and not give way to it.

W.L. Would you say that Amalek would have the whole position in mind?

J.T. The attack was really a challenge to the whole divine position. "Choose us men". It was the whole

position, and Moses understood that, and that the conflict would go on. According to Moses, Jehovah said it would be a continuous thing, so that the present battle would be of great advantage to us in the way of experience in a future day. The lesson for us today is that Joshua is a trustworthy man, a successful man; and that he is susceptible to support coming in from other sources. He is dependent upon others. He cannot stand by himself. The position is peculiar and must be understood spiritually. The names of the different persons mentioned must be kept in view as entering into the whole combination. Each one represents an element entering into this most important exercise. Evidently Moses trusted Joshua and that he would know the kind of men capable of military service at that time, and he left it to him to choose them. I thought that it would be a point for us to establish our trustworthiness among the brethren.

A.R. "Choose us men" -- does that mean that the men would be characteristically persons who judge themselves?

J.T. I would say that. It is a very important thing to establish a reputation, not that you are seeking it in another sense, but a reputation for trustworthiness and reliability -- that you can be trusted with a mission.

S.McC. Was that seen in Titus? Paul left him to choose elders in a place where there was a reputation for fleshly activities.

J.T. That enters into this. Those two men, Titus and Timothy, were looked at as reliable by Paul; so that they were trusted with the selection of elders. The elders were to be themselves commendable.

A.A.T. Is there any connection with the woman in John 4 as to her link with the flesh and the way she lived afterwards?

J.T. Yes, she must have overcome. She went to the men and told them about the Lord; in fact she went further, she began to take care of His interests.

The Lord would regard her as reliable. It is reliability that is so important in the service of God, it means that persons can be trusted.

R.W.S. Is the believer in the last verse of Romans 7 unfurling this banner "Jehovah-nissi", when he says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law"?

J.T. That is right. I myself, it is a question of the ego; he has found himself, his own feet, in the sense of responsibility, and resolves with the mind to serve the law of God. He is establishing a foundation that will give character to him, the character of reliability. None of us is of much account until he begins to make resolves before God.

A.L. The opening of the section reads, "And Amalek came and fought with Israel". We should bear in mind that the enemy is ever ready to come in, so we must always be on guard.

J.T. Yes, it is that he sees an opening here. He works through the flesh; where he moves he has seen an opening where the flesh is unjudged. He watches us: he sees our propensities, our displeasures, our likes. He knows what to bring before you to draw out the flesh, to gratify it.

C.H.H. What would the altar that comes in here refer to?

J.T. It is a landmark. It is a point reached, a victory acquired. It is said that "Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi" -- 'Jehovah my banner'. He fought under it successfully, and God, I suppose, would be worshipped accordingly as helping us against this awful thing, Satan in the flesh.

L.E.S. Samuel dealing with Agag would be in view of David's superiority over Saul and David being able to deal with Amalek. David knew how to deal with the flesh and Saul did not.

J.T. Just so. Saul had just shown how unable he was to deal with Amalek. In fact he was hiding the

real facts of the matter, which is often the case in such circumstances. We are inclined to deceive and dissemble. That is what he did, so that the Amalekite king came "delicately;" "Surely the bitterness of death is past", he said, (1 Samuel 15:32). There was fleshly deception in his attitude, but Samuel hewed him in pieces before the Lord. That is when another king had to be selected. It is a question as to whether Samuel himself had wholly judged Saul's character. God says, Go to the house of Jesse to choose another king and I will tell you when you get there who it is to be, as much as to say, Do not decide it yourself. I think really there was a want in Samuel, so that as soon as the first, named Eliab, came, he says, "Surely Jehovah's anointed is before him;" but the Lord had not told him. What was the secret? The height of his stature, and his countenance. That is a very important matter for us now, for no matter how much we have advanced in the truth, under certain circumstances we do attach some importance to the flesh.

A.E.H. Does not David show his moral superiority when the news is brought of Saul's death? It would naturally be very gratifying to David, but he slays the Amalekite who brought the message. He carried out what Saul failed to carry out.

J.T. It was the time in which the enemy would attack David on those lines but he maintained the truth against him.

Ques. Might it be said that Samuel judged the Amalekitish principle in Agag the king, but that the same principle was in Saul in a more subtle form? Samuel mourned overlong for him.

J.T. Just so. And that, no doubt, is the secret of his selecting Eliab in his own mind; he must have been a man much like Saul. Jehovah's rebuke would indicate this -- "Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature".

C.H.H. If we do not slay the Amalekite, he will slay us? The Amalekite slew Saul.

G.D. How do you explain the power of Amalek, the fact that war went on from generation to generation?

J.T. Well, Satan will never give up. We get the idea of the power available on our side. We have power over him as we resist him. It is a question of using it, of facing him.

A.R. Is that why it says, "Joshua broke the power of Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword" (Exodus 17:13), as if it were not a complete victory, as if it might come up again?

J.T. That is what Jehovah says. "Jehovah will have war with Amalek from generation to generation". It is because Satan is continually attacking. Resisting him, we refuse to accede to his temptations in the flesh; then we overcome him. But he will attack where there is an opening. In one sense he is a defeated foe though ever ready to attack, and as we resist him he flees from us. In the millennium he will be bound. But now in the all-wise government of God he is still permitted to attack the saints. His activities are largely through the flesh.

S.J.H. What is involved in the going out? "Amalek came and fought with Israel in Rephidim. And Moses said to Joshua, Choose us men, and go out".

J.T. It is a military figure of speech. The meaning would be that you take on military attire and attitude m meeting Satan's temptations in the flesh. In the type we have before us, of course, we have physical action.

A.E.H. Is it offensive rather than defensive -- to go out?

J.T. Evidently; there was plenty of offensive power there, going out would mean that; but Amalek had already come and started to fight. He came and fought with Israel.

J.D. "The hand is on the throne of Jah". Is it that Satan acts in the flesh to contend what is in the believer's soul?

J.T. That is what is meant, I think. It is in the believer's soul, the throne is there, God shall reign there. So that "I myself with the mind serve God's law". God's rights are acknowledged.

R.W.S. Would the smiting of the rock in the earlier verses be used as leverage in the soul of the believer to deal with the enemy?

J.T. You mean the sufferings of Christ; the Holy Ghost coming in consequent upon the sufferings of Christ. That side of the truth is calculated to touch our hearts. He suffered that we might drink.

J.D. It was the same staff with which Moses smote the river. The sufferings of Christ are the basis laid for the gift of the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so, and now that same staff is on the top of the hill. So we should be in the thing, judging our wills and independency, for that is where the weakness lies.

A.E.H. In the scripture in Hebrews 2:14, 15, where the enemy is spoken of as being annulled, you have the suggestion of being set free. Is that an allusion to the power of the Spirit? It says, "And might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage". The war is going on but the power of the Spirit is there to set free or deliver.

J.T. Yes, that we might be in that liberty. Now we may go on to Exodus 33. That brings out, not the military side of the young brother, but his love of the house. The psalmist depicts how the believer loves the habitation of the Lord's house, the place where His glory dwelleth (Psalm 26:8). It is a beautiful trait in a young person. Moses, it is said, "returned to the camp; but his attendant, Joshua, the son of Nun, a

young man, departed not from within the tent". He is not said to be a young man in the other scriptures, but he is here. He remained "within;" the power over Amalek, Satan in the flesh, maintained, will concurrently cause the development of the love of the habitation of God.

C.R. As a good soldier he was not entangled with the affairs of this life.

J.T. He is not taken up wholly with military affairs, he loves the divine dwellings as in Psalm 84:2, "the courts;" but here it is "within the tent". He departed not from within the tent.

C.DeB. Was that the same thing that characterised Timothy?

J.T. Well, I think it was in mind when Paul said to him, "if I delay;" in order that, if there was delay in his coming, one should know how to behave in the house of God. I suppose it was at Ephesus that the truth of the house was specially brought out, but the point is to know how to behave oneself in it. And then to know what it is: "the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. And confessedly the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory" (1 Timothy 3:15, 16). That is the inner aspect of the house, the mysterious side of it, which a true hater of Amalek would love. That is his place. David said, "One thing have I asked of Jehovah, that will I seek after: that I may dwell in the house of Jehovah all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of Jehovah, and to inquire of him in his temple" (Psalm 27:4).

Ques. Do you think the "camp" should be taken as the sphere of profession, which had been owned, but there is now need to separate and seek the presence of God in the tent outside?

J.T. That is the thought; the tent had been separated. "Moses took the tent, and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the Tent of meeting" (Exodus 33:7). And then we are told in verses 9 - 11, "And it came to pass when Moses entered into the tent, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and Jehovah talked with Moses. And all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent; and all the people rose and worshipped, every man at the entrance of his tent. And Jehovah spoke with Moses face to face". That is the position, that is the idea of the house, and that is the blessing, honour and dignity attached to it and to those who love it. Joshua remains there but Moses goes back into the camp; for the Lord has a right to do so, to visit His people wherever they are; for He knows where they are. But the lover of the house would stay in it. It is a question of communion, of maintaining communion with God in His dwelling.

C.H.H. Would the truth in Corinthians enter into it, partaking of the Supper worthily as having dealt with the flesh?

J.T. We are to judge ourselves: "Let a man examine himself, and so let him eat". The Corinthians were partaking of the Lord's supper in an unseemly manner.

C.H.H. I was wondering if this action of Joshua indicates the advance he has made? Does the first mention of him in overcoming the flesh qualify him for this position?

J.T. I think the link is just there. In the meantime he had been on the mountain with Moses and of course he thus had had great advantages; but in coming down he was unable to discern the difference between war and singing. His discerning powers were not strong. I suppose it shows here that we need to keep with God, our safety lies in His habitation. What advantage there is as young people attending the meetings keep with

the brethren! The enemy, to that extent, is at a disadvantage in his attacks. You cannot afford to absent yourself from the meetings, from being near to God, because if you do you lose connection and get neglectful, and Amalek will get power over you. Thus let us stay in the place of safety.

L.E.S. The "attendants on the Word" in Luke would have in view the service of the house, although perhaps on a little higher level than the attendant of Moses. Would that be right?

J.T. Yes, you mean those who were eye-witnesses of and attendants on the Word. The Lord can go back to the camp, He has rights there, "the Lord knows those that are his" (2 Timothy 2:19). That is what Paul says, and He attends to His people wherever they are, but in His own way. It is another thing for Joshua to go back because separation from the camp had already taken place. There were some there who needed attention because they were worshipping -- although at the entrances of their tents.

G.A.T. Would you say a little on the thought of Moses leaving the camp and going back to the camp? Would it answer at all to the early part of Acts?

J.T. Yes, I would think that. God had not left the Jews yet, that is the principle. But Hebrews 13:13 teaches us to go forth to Christ without the camp, bearing His reproach.

Ques. Why does it refer to Joshua as the son of Nun?

J.T. That is his identification. Identification is very common in Scripture: Eleazar, the son of Aaron; Joshua, the son of Nun.

R.A. Do the features of the overcomer come out in Joshua here?

J.T. I think so. He has overcome Amalek, he has had the rehearsal of that victory in his ears, and he is not going to give him any advantage. The house was

lovable to him. It was God's chief interest, though as yet it was not the final tabernacle, which was not yet made; but it was the tent of meeting where God met with His people and where His people could meet with Him.

C.DeB. There is a great danger in connection with conditions in the world because they hinder brethren from attending the meetings. Would you say the enemy is in that?

J.T. That is one of the strongest points to make when speaking to God about this terrible war -- the possible effect of it on young brothers and young sisters called into the services. They are put into circumstances they never were in before and may not be equal to, conditions in which they are greatly exposed. Of course they would go to the meetings whenever they could; it is their salvation to go to the meetings, to keep as near as possible to the brethren.

W.L. So that you would say you need both sides of the matter: the war with Amalek is the negative side, whereas not departing from the tent is the positive side.

J.T. That is right -- where God is. It is really the place of protection, and at the same time the place of enjoyment; the place where His honour dwells. The Psalms should be read with the books of Moses because they give examples of experience flowing from the light of the Pentateuch.

F.N.W. Does Psalm 84:10 enter into it, "I had rather stand at the threshold of the house of my God, than dwell in the tents of wickedness"? Would that be Joshua's voice here?

J.T. That is what I thought.

M.O. Does Joshua furnish a good lead?

J.T. We might see that in this "young man" and in Eleazar, for the young have largely to learn the principles of leadership by example.

J.W.D. What do you say about John Mark? Would you say that he left the tent of meeting?

J.T. I would say that. He returned to Jerusalem and at that point we have the remarkable phrase, "Paul and his company". The energy of the Spirit would be there and hence salvation and blessing generally. John Mark elected to be outside of that and have some other company than Paul's.

J.W.D. I was wondering if an Amalekite attack would induce us to leave the tent of meeting?

J.T. Yes. One thing to be cultivated is good company. Hebrews 10:25 says, "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, as the custom is with some", and I think the Lord is helping the brethren to value one another.

F.C. Do you think that Luke appreciated that company in Acts where he begins various passages with "we" did this and that?

J.T. That is right. As soon as he joins the company he is speaking as one of them; he does not say 'they'. Very often people say, They are doing this and that, whereas the word should be, We are. If it is anything to us at all it ought to be our company.

J.V.S. Psalm 122:1 would bear on that, would it not? "Let us go into the house of Jehovah;" it is a question of where your heart is.

J.T. Quite so. It was a real joy to the heart of the psalmist to go to the house of God and he went with a joyous company: "Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem".

E.G.McA. John Mark went back to Jerusalem in the face of the trend of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. I suppose he was influenced by natural feelings about Jerusalem, and he may have thought the road was hard, and the work hard and trying. At any rate, he abandoned those who, with Paul, were moving in the energy of the Spirit in the testimony of God.

A.R. Does the Lord Jesus show leadership in this way at the age of twelve? His father and mother started home but He was still in the temple.

J.T. Yes. It was His Father's business.

A.E.H. Do you think those men who were associated with Joshua in battle against Amalek might be carried forward here in those who are called men? In verse 10 it says they "rose and worshipped, every man at the entrance of his tent".

J.T. Yes. "It came to pass that every one who sought Jehovah went out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp". There were others, however, who did not go out to the tent of meeting. "And it came to pass, when Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and stood every man at the entrance of his tent, and they looked after Moses until he entered into the tent". Those in verse 7 go all the way. "Every one who sought Jehovah went out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp". Standing in their doors is not the same as going out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp.

J.S. Is this the movement that is recorded in Hebrews, "Let us go forth to him"?

J.T. Yes, the allusion is to that, "Let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach" (Hebrews 13:13). There are other incidents as to Joshua that could be called to mind, and perhaps negatively ought to be in our minds so that they should be avoided. Joshua showed partisanship in Numbers 11 at the time of the transfer of Moses' power to others. Some remained in the camp and prophesied; Joshua would not rest at that. He asked Moses to forbid them. That is a negative thing, but it does point to a danger with the best of young brothers of having a preference for certain ones, especially those who might have been a help to them.

J.D. When the Spirit of God put Paul forward

instead of Barnabas, John Mark's uncle, there was apparently a party feeling with John Mark, that he was not satisfied to have Paul promoted.

J.T. "Paul and his company" brought in just there would show, as we have said, that there was a spiritual attraction around Paul which did not affect John Mark. Now Numbers 13 brings out the promotion of this young brother clearly in view of the land. Joshua is going into Canaan. He is going to lead Israel into Canaan and the leader evidently needs all the spiritual dignity that can be conferred upon him, because, given in this sense, it is power. The Lord accorded titles to certain persons, and it implies that it would increase their power; so that Jehovah says, "Moses called Hoshea" -- which means 'Deliverance' -- "the son of Nun, Jehoshua" -- which means 'Jehovah is Saviour'. I suppose Moses would have the sense, prophetically at least, that while Joshua was in Canaan there would be one there who was trustworthy, who would apprehend the whole position before God in view of the ultimate result. It would be Jehovah's power, but through this young man in due course.

E.G.McA. Why is it that Joshua was the only man of these twelve whose name was changed? Caleb was also an outstanding man in perseverance.

J.T. Well, he was not going to get the official status of Joshua, for after all, such a title must be prophetic. Paul says Timothy received a gift through prophecy -- God indicating to a man beforehand what he is to do. It ought to have a great influence over him for good. The more sense of responsibility I have, the more upright in the sense of it, the more power I shall need, and God furnishes this so that His work may prosper. Anyone who did not recognise distinction in this change of name -- Hoshea to Jehoshua -- would be delinquent in Israel. Deliverance is a good deal, but 'Jehovah is Saviour' is more; it is to be demonstrated