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Pages 1 - 227 -- "Notes of Readings in New York", 1943 (Volume 160).

THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (1)

2 Timothy 1:1, 2, 8 - 14; Ezekiel 37:1 - 14

J.T. Life, which is a great and very wide thought, has been selected as the subject for these readings. I think we have observed that the truth opens up to us more freely as we treat it in its immediate application to ourselves to meet current need. So it was thought that we might begin with life as spoken of in the Scriptures in relation to the last days, which are called "difficult times" in 2 Timothy 3:1. The epistle was written to a young man, taken up in the service and qualified for it, and points to the continuance of the testimony. In ministering, Timothy was to have in mind at least two generations after himself, chapter 2: 2. Paul enjoined him to pass on to others what he had heard from him.

In view of what we have been engaged with during the past series of meetings, that is, "Wells and Springs", it is thought that the subject of life should be looked at; although it has been included, in some measure, in the previous inquiry, it is thought that the latter needs supplementing by a review of life in a more general way. The bearing of prophetic ministry in relation to it is also in mind; that is why the passage in Ezekiel was proposed. It contemplates life in a complete result. In that passage we have persons constituted from a condition of dry bones into full manhood. "The whole house of Israel" is seen there -- "an exceeding great army". Clearly, conflict is in mind.

A.A.T. Is the promise of life for the present or future?

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J.T. It is God anticipating need that would arise. A promise is usually to meet a need. This promise was made long before, but it becomes effective as the need exists.

A.N.W. Does it differ from the promise of eternal life which is mentioned in Titus?

J.T. I think it is the same thing. It is called "life" here in both passages read. In verse 1, it is the "promise of life", and in verse 10, "life and incorruptibility". Life is more operative. Eternal life is more a fixed thought and is over against death. Eternal life covers eternity, but what is needed now is life. Timothy, however, is told in the first letter to him to "lay hold of eternal life" (1 Timothy 6:12), and believers who are rich are enjoined to "lay hold of what is really life" (verse 19). The latter is in contrast to what may be acquired of this world's things by money.

A.P.T. Is life, then, an active thought?

J.T. It is quite obviously so. In the whole universe, life in various forms is active all the time; and this is also true of spiritual life. But eternal life is a fixed thought with a very wide bearing. It is connected with the earth where death is. The word 'eternal' is in contrast to what is temporal.

A.B.P. The greatest movements of the physical universe -- the rotations of the heavenly bodies -- do not represent life, do they?

J.T. Only in a typical sense. Of course, God lives and angels live; but eternal life is for men only. In Genesis 1, life is seen on the third day: vegetable life. The heavenly bodies are in view of that, to promote it. Life for men is connected with the earth. So, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4), would contemplate what was down here, not what was in heaven. Men were on earth. The life that was in Christ was for men only.

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'The light of men was the life', see note in New Translation.

J.S. Do you view the world-to-come as an expression of life, nationally?

J.T. It will be general, but centred in Israel. It is commanded in Zion. "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore", Psalm 133:3.

E.McK. Is active life implied in the Lord's remark, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", John 5:17?

J.T. Yes; He also says, "I am the light of the world; he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12. That was active life.

J.S. Does the fourth day of Genesis 1 set before us the ordered condition of the heavenly bodies to sustain life?

J.T. Yes; they also regulate. They are for times and seasons. So, in a later day it is said, "Henceforth, all the days of the earth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease", Genesis 8:22. Heaven regulates; and it affords light, heat and rain which are essential to life on the earth.

What is in mind now is that we might see the force of the promise of life, especially its application at the present time. Certainly it is needed; that is, what is operative here below by the Spirit. "The Spirit life", Romans 8:10. Life in this sense includes our meetings and spiritual intercourse generally with one another and what we enjoy and acquire in our individual relations with God. Christ enters into all this, involving what He is to us officially. "Christ ... who is our life". To the new man, "Christ is everything, and in all", Colossians 3:11. His priestly services endear Him to us and He thus becomes more and more the life of each of us. This is very precious. For young people the idea of the promise of life is

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most assuring. It implies that God has considered for us beforehand and provided for us. The Spirit given involves the promise of life. The Father promised the Spirit, and being exalted to heaven. Christ received Him from the Father and gave Him to the saints. The Spirit, as come, effected living conditions for the saints.

A.N.W. It has been said that a promise is on a lower level than purpose.

J.T. Yes; what is promised, as we have said, is to meet a need or desire in us, but purpose is what God effects for Himself. But it is very touching that God considers for us, the promise of life being the outcome of this. It is a very great blessing and absolutely essential to us now and for ever.

R.W.S. Is that seen in God's word as to the woman's seed? Is that a prophetic promise?

J.T. Yes. God said to the serpent that the woman's seed would crush his head. There would be a need in humanity for that. Clearly Adam named the woman Eve in the light of this pronouncement. Eve was the mother of all living, hence the meaning of the name her husband gave her. Eve is a different word from woman in chapter 2. Eve, meaning life, is the suggestion of a promise, because sin had come in, and death had been pronounced as a judgment on man. Doubtless God was working with Adam and hence, in some sense, he was in the light of life notwithstanding the judgment of death upon him.

F.S.C. Is that where you get the idea that God made the promise before the need was there?

J.T. How He made the promise of life formally is a question, but He made it "before the ages of time". It is now "in Christ Jesus", 2 Timothy 1:1. It is a certainty now; it has taken form and is secured in Man.

A.A.T. Is that Man in resurrection?

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J.T. Quite so; it is Christ as risen. It is of His life as risen and glorified that we partake.

W.F.K. In John 10, He says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" (verse 10). Is the need met there?

J.T. Quite so; plenty of the life.

A.R. 2 Timothy treats of the day of departure from the truth; is this promise of life to meet that in the believer?

J.T. Yes; it is for ourselves now; the young people especially. It is a fixed matter. Adam could not see it in this way, but he certainly had light in his soul when he said, Eve. The idea of life came into his mind: the mother of all living. But now the thing is not only promised, but it has actually taken form. You can see it in Christ. It has taken definite form, and is available to us as a promise.

A.B.P. Is that what Peter had in mind when he spoke of the Originator of life; Acts 3? Mr. Darby's footnote there is helpful in relation to it: 'He began and finished the whole course'. He set it forth and completed it.

J.T. Yes. A man may originate a thing, but to complete the idea he must make it function. So the Lord Jesus originated life, being God, and He exemplified it. He says, "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12.

W.R. Is that what we have in the opening of the epistle of John? The life is carried forward in a substantial way.

J.T. Yes. "The eternal life"; the thing was there in a Man. Christ was it. Here it is for us just to get the thought of the promise; that God thought of us beforehand. It is very precious to be promised something by Him; and here it is not only in promise, but in fulfilment in Christ Jesus; and, as we have been saying, in laying hold of it. He becomes our life. In that way it is an operative thought, not a static

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thought. In the millennium it will be available to enter into: but here, it is active. It is available to us, which involves that the Spirit is acting in us, and that Christ as Priest is also serving us. He is not only the Life but He is the Priest. He is the Head of the whole divine system, and looks after us in all relations so that we might be in the enjoyment of this life for He is it.

C.N. Does Romans 8 show how it operates? The apostle says, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death", Romans 8:2.

J.T. Just so; what I was saying about priesthood is worthy of note -- He is Priest "according to power of indissoluble life", Hebrews 7:16. He is our Priest. "For such a high priest became us", Hebrews 7:26. In exercising His Priesthood He brings us into the life. As we are near to Him He is it to us.

W.R. Is that why the Lord presents Himself alive in Luke 24? "It is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having", Luke 24:39.

J.T. Just so; He was the life there, it is life now in Him. This word 'promise' conveys a beautiful thought for young people; how God is thinking of us according to our needs. He says, I have provided for them all beforehand. What is stated here is "the promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus". Thus we see the position of it. It is said to be in Christ. And then, "... my beloved child": it is a young man that is in mind; a young man in special spiritual family relationship with the apostle. In the later passage, Paul alludes to himself as a sufferer. "Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but suffer evil along with the glad tidings, according to the power of God; who has saved us, and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to

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his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time, but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings" (verses 8 - 10). That is how life has come in.

J.T.Jr. The angel told the apostles to speak in the temple "all the words of this life": does that connect with the present position of Christ in heaven and also with what He was here?

J.T. It refers to the life of Christ as expressed here in testimony, which involves what we are speaking of -- "which thing is true in him and in you", 1 John 2:8. It was in Him as here in the flesh "the old commandment", the word which they heard (verse 7). Believers are brought into it through redemption, so that "the new commandment" (verse 8), is the life now true in Him and in us. "The words of this life" convey what the life is; they make it intelligible. John also writes "concerning the word of life": "that which was from the beginning ... which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us", 1 John 1:1, 2. It was a known thing.

A.MacN. Is the annulling of death by the Lord Jesus necessary to the bringing to light of this life?

J.T. Quite so; that is what is stated. It is a complete triumph. It goes beyond what we enjoy now; it involves incorruptibility; it involves resurrection.

A.R. Melchisedec is said to have "neither beginning of days nor end of life". I suppose that character of Christ's priesthood will affect the valley of dry bones of Ezekiel 37.

J.T. Yes; in Hebrews 7 Christ is said to be Priest "according to power of indissoluble life". You are brought to the realisation of Him as life through His priestly service. He becomes indispensable to you. Thus your attitude is, that as relieved by Him from

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some pressure, you do not go on your way, somewhat leaving Him out of your circumstances; on the contrary. He is endeared to you, your life; Colossians 3:4.

C.A.M. Would you say that life is appreciated only as the need of it is felt, and hence God allowed all the history that preceded the presentation of it in Christ?

J.T. Yes; the Old Testament treats of the time of divine demand, and those who had faith felt the pressure and looked forward to the fulfilment of the promises, including life. They had to live on the promises, and that meant that they had to wait. Jacob said, "I wait for thy salvation, O Jehovah", Genesis 49:18. It is not so with us; life has come and is available in Christ. That makes the great difference between Old Testament believers and those of today. It was a question of waiting from Adam until Christ. The promises were there but their fulfilment had to be waited for. The saints lived by faith, seeing what was promised afar off and embracing it. But death was not annulled and hence the Spirit was not given. In fact the general position was that death was not only present and dominant, but it was accentuated by the law, as Romans 7 shows.

C.A.M. So God allowed the pressure of death and other things to come so that believers might appreciate the magnificence of what He has brought in.

J.T. Yes. The waiting and the instruction in the waiting, made the things promised more and more to be desired. That was the Old Testament history of believers. It was a time of demand on God's part to bring out what man was; that is, that he was sinful. Faith saw this and understood that God alone could meet the situation and waited for Him. He supported this faith, making promises, particularly life, at the same time affording light, especially in the types, as to the coming Redeemer and the redemption He would accomplish. Christ said, "I am come that

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they might have life, and might have it abundantly", John 10:10. So that He was there to make the promise good.

C.A.M. Adam must have had some sense of what life was when he named Eve.

J.T. He did not name her at all in that connection first. He named her by a derivative from his own name; "Ish" does not mean life. "Ish" and "Ishshah" designate two persons suited to each other and having mutual affections. Adam naming his wife "Eve", which means life, after sin came in, indicates that Jehovah's pronouncement to the serpent regarding the woman's seed afforded him light as to life.

J.S. Does John give us a full-size picture of life as set forth in a man?

J.T. Quite so. It was not in Eve nor in anybody before. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4. It is the past tense: Christ's history on earth is in mind. What we are considering now is the promise of life, whether we are enjoying it, laying hold of it as fixed in Christ. So apprehended, it is stabilising. In the gospel, life is presented to us as available in Him. It is, therefore, a question of taking up the promise.

A.MacN. "He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him", John 3:36. Hence, would you say, faith would enter into life to the enjoyment of it?

J.T. Yes; it is apprehended and enjoyed through faith, by the Spirit. We shall have that more fully later, God willing. But what the Lord would say to us now is concerning this matter of promise to be appropriated in a world of death: so much murder, so much death! Every moment numbers of people die from the violence of hatred. God is stressing

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death. There is a voice in it, God saying, I have provided the means of overcoming in the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, and the Lord Himself is saying to every suffering saint, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life", Revelation 2:10.

J.T.Jr. Is it suggested in a way in Jacob's relations with Joseph? Joseph suggested what was coming in with Christ, and Jacob valued that; his life was in it.

J.T. That is the way to get at it, really -- to get some concrete idea of the promise. As Joseph was born, Jacob proposed to return to the place of promise. And there "he made him a vest of many colours", which would allude to what was in his mind, which he could hardly define; the vest of many colours typically involved Christ's deity. Joseph was a type of Christ as the 'Sustainer of life', see note to Genesis 41:45 in the New Translation. Judah said the life of Jacob was bound up with the life of Benjamin, another type of Christ; Genesis 44:30. What we need to come into now, in the midst of death -- accentuated, in the extent and cruelty of it as employed by men, perhaps as never before -- is the great and blessed gift of life available to us in Christ. It is a certainty; it is there intelligibly and available to us. It is victory, for it implies that Christ has annulled death, so that it has no more power over the christian. The Lord says, "Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell", Matthew 10:28. And so the promise to Smyrna is, "I will give to thee the crown of life ... . He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death", Revelation 2:10, 11. It is an immense thing to get hold of, that death is annulled. Satan is annulled, too. They are both active, but for faith they are both annulled; and our chapter is to show

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how the promise of life can be laid hold of intelligently as available in Christ Jesus.

A.N.W. The apostle is saying that his apostleship is in relation to that very promise.

J.T. Quite so. "According to promise of life". He is on that line, and so is every true servant of the Lord on that line, trying to help the saints get into this, to lay hold of the promise; young people especially. In Hebrews 6 we have two things to sustain our hearts; God's promise and His oath. Here it is one thing; the promise of life.

T.E.H. Scripture says Sarah received strength in view of the promise. She had faith in her own soul, overcoming the barrenness that had existed in her.

J.T. She received strength "for the conception of seed ... since she counted him faithful who promised", Hebrews 11:11.

R.W.S. Faith enters into it, and the Holy Spirit helps us in laying hold of it.

J.T. Quite so; as we were saying, the life is available, and the Spirit is available to us for the appropriation of it. If one has not the Spirit, he cannot enjoy life. However much he may be interested in what we are saying, he cannot lay hold of it effectively. The Spirit is the power of life.

G.V.D. Is Simeon, as in Luke 2, an example of one who was laying hold of the promise? It was divinely communicated to him that he should not see death until he should see the Lord's Christ, and he came into the temple in the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. He says, "Now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace", Luke 2:29. To die by the word of God is a triumph of spiritual intelligence. Moses and Aaron may be regarded in this way; Simeon very definitely so: he says, "according to thy word ... for mine eyes have seen thy salvation". He referred to Jesus, the promised Salvation, a Babe in his arms.

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A.R. "And brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings" -- does that mean that in the glad tidings incorruptibility and life are offered?

J.T. Yes. It raises the whole question of the gospel as it is preached now. Life in Christ should be stressed. Those who believe "reign in life by the one Jesus Christ", Romans 5:17. They have also "justification of life" (verse 18). God is using the preaching of the gospel among the brethren, however feeble, to promote life for deliverance and spiritual joy. The result of the gospel preached in Antioch of Pisidia was that the believers "were filled with joy and the Holy Spirit", Acts 13:52. In our chapter Paul goes on to say, "... to which I have been appointed a herald and apostle and teacher of the nations". This brings up the question as to what should be emphasised in the preaching now. In this epistle life is the more important feature.

A.R. Those who speak in prophetic meetings should have our chapter in Ezekiel in mind. Prophecy promotes life. Each preacher should be exercised as to what kind of gospel he should present at any stated service.

J.T. Life and incorruptibility is a great subject. There are various ways in which it may be presented, and Ezekiel 37 affords much light as to this. We ought to go on to that now, but there are some further thoughts in 2 Timothy which should help us in what is in mind. The apostle says, "For which cause also I suffer these things; but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep for that day the deposit I have entrusted to him. Have an outline of sound words, which words thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted", chapter 1: 12 - 14. These remarks of the apostle are in regard to those who are serving;

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what he is stressing is this great matter of life that has come to light by the gospel. I am to "have an outline of sound words" in my preaching. Thus I shall be definite in my service.

A.P.T. "But to the others an odour from life unto life", 2 Corinthians 2:16. Is that what he is speaking about here as in the gospel?

J.T. Just so; the odours were in himself as he preached. Both odours would be involved in his remark elsewhere: "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. 1 Corinthians 2:1 - 7 shows how Paul selected the features of the truth he decided he would preach in any given place.

A.B.P. Life and incorruptibility in Lazarus, in John 12, would be the result of the operation of the Son of God? Do you think that our gospel preachings should be in relation to the Son of God, particularly?

J.T. That is what that section of John would teach us -- the movements of Christ in relation to the sickness and death of Lazarus. He had stayed away two days so that Lazarus might die. He came to Bethany, and Martha went out to meet Him, and the conversation that ensued led her to believe in the Lord as Son of God. He had said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live", John 11:25. That was the great truth that governed the whole position at Bethany. Then Martha left. She went and told Mary; then Mary comes to the Lord, and His deep feelings as to the power of death were expressed, His sympathy also with the bereaved ones. The movements and words of Christ in that scene are most instructive and touching. The great matter of life and incorruptibility entered into the scene. The Lord asked, Where have you laid him? He went

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there and spoke to His Father, saying, "I knew that thou always hearest me; but on account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me". Then He cried, "Lazarus, come forth. And the dead came forth, bound feet and hands with graveclothes". And He said, "Loose him and let him go". Spiritual movement, characteristic of life, marks the scene.

J.S. Was it to get the eyes of Mary and Martha focused on Him?

J.T. Quite so; but it is beautiful to see the movements of life in a scene of death, especially when Lazarus is let go. All this links up with our chapter in Ezekiel. What is specially to be noted is the prophesying and the noise of rustling, bringing about external conditions of life. The bones came together, and the prophesying to the four winds, "Come ... O breath, and breathe upon these slain that they may live" caused the breath to come into them and they lived. It is a completed matter. Those made to live stood upon their feet, "an exceeding great army". A great divine thought is reached. It is that "these bones are the whole house of Israel". It is a complete position, answering to the purpose of God and the promise of life. I believe God will encourage us as to this, to be brought into conformity to His purpose in regard to life. He needs us in many connections, and we are to be ready and complete for the service and position for which He has purposed us. If it be translation, we are to be ready for it.

R.W.S. Does John give the organs of life inwardly; and Ezekiel, the external side?

J.T. That is what I understand. You have the internal side in John, for he has in mind what is inward; whereas Ezekiel has in mind the public position. Whatever is in God's mind for us, we are ready for it. If it be translation, we are ready for it. If it be continuance of the testimony, we are ready

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for it, but the idea is that we are complete according to God's mind.

W.R. Paul says, "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body", 2 Corinthians 4:10.

J.T. "In our body"; the body is morally equal to what is put upon it. A perfect man is in mind. We are going to have bodies of glory, but it is a question of life in the sense of active power, and every member of Christ's body is to be actuated by the life that is in Christ Jesus.

C.A.M. Our translation corresponds to what will take place on earth when Israel is awakened.

J.T. Yes; and the nations, although in flesh and blood as we are, will go into eternal life. God intends our bodies as they are now to be brought into accord morally with what we are inwardly.

F.N.W. Is there development in John in that way, in Patmos, serving in difficult days, as we are? Has he developed in this feature of life so that he is ready to take part in tribulation or be caught up to heaven?

J.T. Yes, ready for whatever was required. He was the brother in tribulation, and the time came when he was caught up into heaven.

A.R. The first move here is perfect uniformity -- bone to bone. There are not going to be any freaks in the results of this power of resurrection; no abnormalcy.

J.T. That is the idea. Paul says, "To ... present every man perfect in Christ". I believe that is what the Spirit of God has in mind in this chapter; first to call attention to the state of the saints as they are today, so that Ezekiel is called upon and found ready for the service. He says, "Jehovah carried me out in the Spirit, and set me down in the midst of a valley; and it was full of bones. And he caused me to pass by them round about; and behold, there were very many in the open valley;

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and behold, they were very dry". This is Ezekiel's own discovery. God is testing him as to whether he is equal for this service; that is what one is thinking of -- and many are coming into God's service -- whether we can name the conditions we have to deal with, as Ezekiel does.

Ques. Would you say we must have a complete apprehension of death in order that we might be able to bring in the light of life?

J.T. Yes; this marks Ezekiel here. Thus you must seek to know something of the persons you are serving; that is the point here. The prophet discerned the state of the bones.

W.F.K. Do you see the formation of the assembly in this chapter? It says, "the whole house of Israel".

J.T. That would be the idea as applied to ourselves. The great thought of God is to bring that in. If He is to continue His testimony those He would use should come into the light of all these things and be available to Him outwardly and inwardly. Chapter 36 is the inward side; this chapter is the outward side.

A.N.W. So that in preaching, you have the potentiality of the bones before you. You are not addressing merely bones, are you?

J.T. No. A figure of certain persons is before you; the whole house of Israel; but Ezekiel pronounces on the conditions of those he has to serve. The Lord told Paul in Corinth that He had much people there; but the apostle's exercise led him to minister only a certain line of truth to them. He determined not to know anything among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. He knew what he had to deal with, although the Lord evidently did not tell him of the state of the people. We must seek to understand all this, because if the testimony is to go on we must gauge what features of the truth are to

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be ministered as the Lord gives open doors for service.

T.E.H. Is Israel viewed here apprehending the truth of resurrection so that they can bury in chapter 39?

J.T. Quite so; a terrible war is contemplated in chapters 38 and 39. We are in the midst of such a conflict now, but what about our implements of war? What about our training? What about our efficiency in the wars of the Lord? It is a great army here, notice; standing on their feet; fully developed persons. To effect this great result the first thing is that the servant is able to determine the condition of the material he has to deal with.

A.R. In the New Testament we have, "Thus the Son also quickens whom he will" (John 5:21); and in Ephesians it says, "... (we too being dead in offences), has quickened us with the Christ", chapter 2: 5. Is that the same thing that is going on here?

J.T. In principle it would be. In serving one would like to get a general outline of the state of those to be served. Ezekiel saw the bones were "very dry"; then Jehovah enquired, "Son of man, Shall these bones live?" (verse 3). He did not venture to answer that, but said, "Lord Jehovah, thou knowest". Then the Lord directs him to "Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live". Now, Jehovah is telling Ezekiel what to say. That is the next thing for the preacher. You determine the character of your congregation and then decide what you will present to it. Ezekiel says, "I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise". He was not told about that beforehand. What was the noise? He says, "Behold a rustling". If we understand the Spirit coming out from heaven, we understand noises that allude to the work of God.

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The sound filled the house, Acts 2 states. The noise here is discerned; it is a question of the bones rustling; real evidence of something happening; not by the preaching but by God -- the mighty power of God. We may expect that as in His service. Then it is said, "And the bones came together, bone to its bone". That is most remarkable. Anatomy would teach us: that bone must go there, and this there. The human body is the most wonderful, you might say, of all organisms, and these bones find each its place. What intelligence in the very rudiments of the work of God that the great framework of a man must take place in this way! But it is the wisdom and power of God. Then the prophet says, "And I looked, and behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them". An observant servant discerns what is being effected in those he serves. You look at their faces. I do not think it is good to look much at the ceiling or walls of the building when you are preaching. You will not see spiritual results there! It is in living persons that you will see something to encourage you.

J.T.Jr. When you see them continuing "very dry", much exercise is caused in you!

J.T. It casts you more upon God when you see sleepiness in an audience. There is no bone going to bone when this exists. God works in relation to a framework; that is, man as in Christ. It is Christ that is preached, and the work of God in the hearer is to bring bone to bone in order to bring out a man like Christ. That is what we see here: "And behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them". Ezekiel understands -- there must be breath, that is, the Spirit of life, in the body. Thus, "He said unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord

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Jehovah: Come from the four winds". There was prophecy to the bones, but now he is to prophesy unto the wind. That has to be well considered. Your soul, as in the service, turns to God: the power of the Spirit is not only to act on the hearers, but also to come into them, because the Holy Spirit does seal people while they are listening. We see this in the house of Cornelius; Acts 10:44. And then, as we remarked earlier, the word is, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live". What is to be observed here is that while the gift of the Spirit is sovereignly from God, it is seen here as effected through prophecy. Thus the preaching and reception of the truth precede the baptism of the Spirit. The Spirit fell upon those who were listening to Peter in the house of Cornelius, but it is perfectly clear that they already had believed the gospel he preached. We must be careful about speaking of the Spirit objectively, but we have to understand Him in that sense and that He operates objectively as the Father and the Son. Here, "the breath came into them and they lived". It is said, "And I prophesied as he had commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army". As already said, that is a real result, a complete result of the testimony of God in prophecy.

A.B.P. Do you have a concrete example of that in the ministry of Philip in Samaria, that bone was brought to bone, but it was not until the apostles came down from Jerusalem that they received the Spirit? I wondered whether the formation in that way, bone to bone, as it were, was Philip's work, and the gift of the Spirit came in through the apostles, Peter and John.

J.T. That is what happened exactly. That shows the distinction that must be between the effect of light, of the gospel, and the Spirit of God received in

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answer to prayer or given directly as in the case of Caesarea. Here we have, in type, the Spirit addressed "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live". The word is now not only dead, but slain.

W.R. Would you say that in the present crisis the younger brethren are being qualified for future service, made to stand up?

J.T. That is what I believe. God is certainly endowing man with ability to serve. The important thing is to have the complete idea in our minds, which God has in His mind. Our services are to reach that end.

Ques. Would you say the purpose of life as seen here in contrast with the promise of life as in the glad tidings would be in the prophetic word?

J.T. The prophetic word is that you have the mind of God and power in presenting it to men. The prophet has the mind of God and he seeks to effect that in what he is doing.

Ques. And the promise would be in the glad tidings?

J.T. Quite so; here it is said that those into whom the breath came "stood up upon their feet an exceeding great army". They do that. Jehovah is acting, the prophet is acting, and the Spirit is acting, and now the persons made to live are acting; they stood up upon their feet, and they are declared to be an exceeding great army. God has now, we may say, an army of spiritual men, good soldiers of Jesus Christ.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (2)

Romans 5:10, 17 - 21; Romans 6:1 - 4, 22, 23

J.T. It is thought we should look at Romans and see the place our subject has in that great epistle. What is in mind in these readings is to stress life viewed in its present activity. Eternal life is more positional and fixed. At the last meeting we considered life as seen in 2 Timothy, viewing it in relation to the present difficult days. It is thought we should consider it now in its normal setting, that is, in the epistles which develop the truth of christianity. Romans is the initial one -- the greatest in this sense. Although eternal life is also mentioned in these two chapters, life in an active sense comes under review in chapter 5. First, Christ's life by which we are saved, which is a remarkable phase of it; then that we reign in life; and finally how we are justified by life. Chapter 6 conveys the idea of life as in the wilderness, the newness of it as coming under the eyes of men; and then, verses 19 - 22, through righteousness and holiness in ourselves, we reach the end, eternal life. "Saved in the power of his life", involves Christ's present position in heaven. Having the Holy Spirit, we participate in His life.

A.R. Is it a new Head in chapter 5, in contrast to Adam?

J.T. Yes; in contrast to Adam, through whom death had come. That is, beginning with verse 12; but verse 10 comes into the section treating of our justification and salvation; so it is said, "Much rather therefore, having been now justified in the power of his blood, we shall be saved by him from wrath. For if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much rather, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in the power

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of his life" (verses 9, 10). "Having been reconciled", therefore (verse 10), is an advanced thought in the great doctrine of the gospel: justified by blood, saved from wrath, reconciled, saved by Christ's life.

A.N.W. "Saved by him from wrath" -- would that be negative, and "saved in the power of his life", the positive side?

J.T. That is how the truth ought to be worked out. Wrath is revealed from heaven and men are exposed to it. So that as "justified in the power of his blood", we are saved from that; but salvation by His life is positive experience for the present time.

C.A.M. Is reconciliation here a great objective fact?

J.T. Yes; it is "through the death of his Son"; this part of the gospel is to be apprehended by faith. Then having been reconciled, we shall be saved in the power of His life. Salvation by blood from wrath and reconciliation are matters of faith -- once for all, we may say -- but salvation by life, as having been reconciled, is clearly something wrought out through the believer's participation in Christ's life. It is a practical reality, implying nearness to Him. It is to be taken home by each to himself. It is for us now to see how this matter of salvation by the life of Christ is to be worked out; first appropriated as light and then worked out. Clearly it cannot be worked out at a distance, for His life is in Himself. "Because I live ye also shall live", John 14:19. It is a truth to be apprehended in an objective sense, but to be experienced in our souls as worked out by the Spirit. It is future only in the sense that each one has to lay hold of the life of Christ and experience it as present salvation. Wrath, as seen in this epistle, is in its application future and salvation from it is by Christ through His blood, but salvation by the life of Christ is a present fact entering into our daily experience.

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R.W.S. Does this go as far as quickening?

J.T. It involves quickening, but quickening is a direct divine act, and what we come into here is the active life of Christ now.

E.McK. Paul says, "... and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. Is that what is meant here?

J.T. It is, only in another connection -- shutting out law as a principle not governing christian life. The apostle says, "Who has loved me and given himself for me". He does not go so far as to say who loves me, but who has loved me. It is an historical matter, not necessarily active in his soul; whereas what we are speaking of involves nearness to Christ as participating in His life. Romans 5:10, as to Christ's life, reads, in the New Translation, with note; "in the power of his life"; not in the distance, as is sometimes involved in faith, but a present experience.

J.T.Jr. Would Joseph's position in Egypt illustrate the life of Christ in that way?

J.T. It would, in the sense of the name that Pharaoh gave him -- Zaphnath-paaneah means 'Saviour of the world', or 'Sustainer of life'. He is the preserver of the posterity of Israel, and it would be in a personal sense. When he made himself known to his brethren he said, "Come near to me, I pray you", Genesis 45:4. Their immediate contact with him, which in the antitype involves the Spirit, is stressed; and I think that is the point here. The Spirit has already been mentioned in chapter 5.

J.S. The man in Acts 3 was in the power of life -- walking, and leaping, and praising God.

J.T. Quite so; it was by faith; but also by Peter's hand: This implies the link of life. Peter says, "Look on us" (verse 4), and then he took hold of

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him by the right hand; and later the man held Peter and John, which corresponds with what we are saying: contact with Christ.

A.R. Is being reconciled to God, in view of being saved in Christ's life, in order to be for God?

J.T. Reconciliation involves divine complacency, and precedes this thought of life: distance between us and divine Persons has been removed. Thus contact in a spiritual sense is open to us. If God has reconciled us, He has brought us into complacency with Himself; thus liberty to participate in Christ's life is ours. Chapter 6 is a question of walking in life, but chapter 5 is that we come under the power of Christ personally in the life that He lives. This has to be understood by us. Reconciliation is through His death. "Through" is instrumentality, throwing light on what has been said as to His life. It is a matter of faith, as justification is, but to be saved by Christ's life is further on.

A.B.P. Is there a connection with Acts 1"... to whom also he presented himself living" (verse 3)? I wondered whether that was in view of their being saved from the course of the world and being in power in testimony.

J.T. That is good. It is a very attractive position. He is presenting Himself. And then the Spirit says, "... being seen by them during forty days". So that He would be as living clearly and attractively in their minds; not simply because of what He had done, but what He was as seen living after He suffered. How powerful and delightful His life would be! And they were to live in that life! What could turn them away from it? He invited them to handle Him. He says, "Handle me and see", Luke 24:39. "During forty days" would mean that He was seen in various presentations so that He might become known in His risen condition and be appropriated. John had appropriated Him before He died; he was "in the

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bosom of Jesus", involving receptiveness on the Lord's part.

The next point in our enquiry now is reigning in life. That is not only salvation but complete victory. "For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ" (verse 17). One is dominant in his circumstances; he is not overcome by any eventuality.

C.A.M. These truths would be learned by the apostle when he first bowed to the Lord. The greatness of His Person came livingly before Paul's soul at the outset. He was "to see the just one, and to hear a voice out of his mouth", Acts 22:14.

J.T. Joseph alluded to his mouth. "And behold, your eyes see, and the eyes of my brother Benjamin, that it is my mouth which speaks to you", Genesis 45:12. I suppose no one would enjoy the Song of Songs more than Paul. And the Lord breathed into the disciples, involving intimacy. These facts help us as to nearness to Christ; contact with Him. Canticles fits in here. "His mouth is most sweet: ..." The book has largely in mind the attractiveness of Christ; also how He draws near to us. The feminine speaker speaks of His embrace and support of her head. He supports us in our intelligence, and in our affections; so that He becomes essential to us. It is not simply the life of faith, but the life of a Person, known in this way; known through contact by the Spirit; and this is victory. Paul says, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power", Philippians 4:13. Also, "For me to live is Christ, and to die gain", Philippians 1:21. He speaks frequently about his relations with Christ, and we know how he reigned in life.

A.A.T. What does "the free gift of righteousness", (verse 17), involve?

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J.T. It is God imputing righteousness to us, I would say, on the principle of faith. It is the liberality of it. "For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ" (verse 17). We are fortified in our minds by these wonderful remarks before we come to the idea of reigning in life. It is not simply life reigning as grace reigns, but that we reign in life. The believer reigns in life, which would allude to his superiority and dominance wherever he is, whatever his circumstances. He is never overpowered. "Death has been swallowed up in victory ... but thanks to God, who gives us the victory by our Lord Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 15:54, 57.

C.A.M. If you continue in that atmosphere you would be superior to everything.

J.T. Yes; especially those of us who have much to do, pressed as unable to keep up with our obligations, and the like. We are apt to be victims of circumstances. The Lord says, "Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place and rest a little", Mark 6:31. He would give us such a season to save us from being overcome by circumstances.

J.T.Jr. It implies a delivered person. We do not get deliverance in this chapter, but reigning in life is that the person is really in the good of deliverance.

J.T. Yes; really the first part of Romans, up to chapter 6, largely overlaps the second part, the first is what comes through Christ administratively. These wonderful things we are speaking of involve chapter 8, but chapter 8 is connected with the Spirit. Chapters 6 - 8 generally view the believer as in Christ.

A.B.P. Those who reign in righteousness are said to "receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness".

J.T. That is how you are furnished in view of

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reigning in life. We are built up on the line of divine gift, meeting other conditions in our souls. Righteousness overcomes any conscience matter, for "If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things", 1 John 3:20. That enters into this. God floods our hearts and consciences with Himself. He is greater than anything that can happen in relation to you, and that shuts out the devil and affords you time to settle matters. Certainly they are not to be settled in the presence of the devil! Faith, active in us, will shut him out. The Lord prayed for Peter that his faith should not fail; Luke 22:32.

J.S. Does reigning in life anticipate the millennium?

J.T. It is more applicable now. For we shall reign there with Christ. We shall be changed, with nothing to disturb us inwardly at all. That is part of the gospel, one of its crowning features; believers reigning in life in a scene of death.

W.C.R. Would the woman in John 4, as going back to the men of the city, be reigning in life?

J.T. In principle, she would. She was full of Christ; "Come, see a man" -- she was full of Him herself and would have them full of Him. She was superior to any natural influences that might have been there.

R.W.S. Is this victory in life over against death? Or is the latter eternal life?

J.T. It is active life we have in mind. As already said, eternal life, as usually presented, is more fixed. Although John says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, the statement does not conflict with what we are saying -- indeed it rather confirms it, for the positive would be that eternal life as in the believer is there in an abiding way -- that is, as laid hold of and entered into as in Christ. "God has

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given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son", 1 John 5:11.

A.N.W. "By the one Jesus Christ"; what is the force of "by" there?

J.T. It is instrumental. You recognise it is through Him you are living. It is active. We see how the Lord affected the disciples during the forty days before He ascended. The two that went to Emmaus represented a drift toward the world. How were they to be kept? They must be affected by the principles of life by Him in whom alone they were. Even the great presentation of the truth by Himself on the way was not enough to divert them. It was Himself. His personal manner. "Was not our heart burning in us as he spoke to us on the way, and as he opened the scriptures to us?"

R.W.S. I would like to get clear as to the difference between active life and what is fixed.

J.T. Eternal life is presented as objective: in this chapter grace is presented as reigning through righteousness to eternal life. That is an objective idea. Chapter 6 has this objective thought also -- "the end eternal life ... the act of favour of God, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It is something you are going on to, either morally or historically. But life as we have been speaking of it is a present active thing and necessary to salvation. In effecting it for us the Lord is seen in a more personal way. So that the "heart" of the two with whom He went to Emmaus was burning as He spoke with them; and this effect was completed by what transpired in the house. They would be affected by His presence there as we can readily understand. Some time would have elapsed, because evidently a meal was prepared. He took the house-father's place at table, taking the bread, blessing and giving it to them. All this had a living character and would draw the two disciples to Him. They would begin to feel He was their life.

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Their eyes were opened and they recognised Him. The intended effect was produced, and He departed from them. These facts, with others recorded as occurring during the forty days, show how the Lord became endeared and indispensable to the disciples, and now as the Spirit was received by them He became their life. They lived by Him.

J.S. Did they return to Jerusalem in the power of His life?

J.T. In principle, they did. The incoming of the Spirit would confirm the result of this experience in the Lord's company. Indeed, in a sense, it would be confirmed as He was known by them in the assembly as they returned to Jerusalem.

J.T.Jr. The disciples were recognised later as those who had been "with Jesus". That must have been the working out in their ministry of the effect of His influence upon them.

J.T. We can, perhaps, speak very little of it, but we can see that persons who were literally in the Lord's company like those in Emmaus, and all of the others who with them were gathered when the Lord came into the midst, were genuinely affected by Him. According to John's presentation of the same incident, the disciples were glad when they saw Him.

Ques. "The just shall live by his faith", (Habakkuk 2:4); how would you connect that with what is before us?

J.T. That is the principle governing life in christianity -- it is not by sight or by law. It is quoted in the New Testament in three connections.

A.R. The selection of Matthias was on the basis that he was with the Lord from the baptism of John until He was received up, which includes the forty days.

J.T. Yes; so that participation in His life now is dependent on our being with Him. The man in Acts 3 held Peter and John. He had the idea of

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contact. The development of the body of Christ is involved in that. It is remarkable that you get in the beginning these thoughts of contact. Peter, looking stedfastly with John upon the man at the gate of the temple, said, "Look on us". He meant to direct his view to them. They reflected Christ and consequently the man stood by them and held them. He had the idea of contact in his mind, and John develops life in connection with the disciples' contact with Christ -- that which we have contemplated, and our hands handled; 1 John 1:1.

A.P.T. The man expected to receive something. The chapter before us says, "Those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life", Romans 5:17. What they receive is through the Person of Christ.

J.T. His feet and ankle bones were made strong. Peter had taken hold of him by the right hand.

A.B.P. Fellowship amongst the saints and the ministry are all a help to us, but if we are to live, we must have personal contact and dealings with Christ.

J.T. That is the point for us today. It is how near we get to Him, and how near we allow Him to get to us. "And they constrained him, saying, Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is declining", Luke 24:29. They constrained Him, so that He did go in and stay.

A.MacD. Abigail had contact in her mind when she spoke to David about the bundle of the living with Jehovah.

A.P.T. There is no change in the government; the same regime continues.

J.T. Yes; it is your own regime. You are not reigning over anybody else; you are supreme in your circumstances.

W.F.K. Is the reigning in life for service? Hezekiah says the 'living' praise Him.

J.T. Just so. You are dominant in yourself and

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your circumstances; but it is in life; thus you are free in the service of God.

J.T.Jr. Samson's history should help us. No one could bind him. The men of Judah said to him, "Knowest thou not that the Philistines rule over us?" But he did not recognise that at all.

A.B.P. When the Lord Jesus said to the woman who touched Him, "Go in peace", He had in mind that she would be able to reign over her circumstances; over herself. She knew in herself that she had been healed. She would not need physicians any more.

J.T. The Lord said of Lazarus, "Loose him and let him go", as over against what is said of the young man of Nain; he was delivered back to his mother. The reigning would be by his mother; care for him by her is contemplated; but Lazarus stands out in the dignity of one who is self-controlled; he is in the dignity and liberty of life. People came to see him. When the Lord comes for us, He will call the saints who are in the graves according to the example of Lazarus. He says, they shall go forth. To this end His raising power takes effect in them. "All who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth", John 5:28. They come out in life. It is "resurrection of life". The wicked dead will go forth, too, but not at the same time; it will be to "resurrection of judgment" -- in responsible existence, not life. The dead in Christ shall be quickened in their graves and come forth.

C.A.M. How inscrutable it all is! In their graves they hear the voice of Christ.

A.B.P. The Lord says, "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life", John 5:40. That links on with what you are saying?

J.T. Just so. And moreover, "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12. That is active life in Christ.

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C.N. Does this involve the apprehension of a certain range of things established in Christ, and our participation in them?

J.T. That would be eternal life. Life in the fullness of it requires environment. We need the Spirit to participate in it. Verse 10 of Romans 5 is Christ's life and how it affects us, which involves nearness to Him. Verse 17 is that I am enriched by the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness, so as to reign in life. We need to see the need of these things so as to overcome circumstances. That is one of the most difficult things we experience, to overcome circumstances; we are so easily affected by them.

W.R. 1 Thessalonians says that "whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him", chapter 5: 10.

J.T. That helps; living together with Him.

W.G.T. "That the power of the Christ may dwell upon me", 2 Corinthians 12:9. Is that the thought?

J.T. Quite so. Paul also says, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power", (Philippians 4:13), so that he is never overwhelmed by circumstances.

J.T.Jr. Would Abigail's circumstances help us in this matter? She had Nabal, a fool, for a husband, involving painful experiences. But in principle she worked out the matter of life, and became victorious.

J.T. Her countenance did not indicate that she was overwhelmed. She was a woman of a beautiful countenance, indeed what is said of her indicates that she evidenced the energy of life, corresponding with David, who "was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance", 1 Samuel 16:12. She was in this sense the feminine counterpart of David, spiritually; the product of the ministry of the first book of Samuel. Typically, she was reigning in life.

F.N.W. If young brothers in the services are deprived of the sphere of eternal life amongst the

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saints, may they enjoy victory in this active life?

J.T. Yes. This is a great point in the present pressure. You cannot but think of them day and night in that very connection. They are involuntarily drawn away. They are subject to the Government and all that, but the surroundings and what they have to do are foreign to them. The great point, therefore, for them is to reign in life where they are.

A.R. Some localities are suffering because brothers are working on Lord's day. That is not overcoming in their circumstances.

J.T. It would not be if they are thinking of the increased wages. It is a question of whether we are influenced by the money. This is becoming a hindering and damaging influence. Jacob represents those affected by wages. His wages were changed ten times. It is remarkable that he kept count of them! It must have been a prime matter with him. Being a father, this would influence his children adversely. Even after Joseph was born, when the thought of returning to the promised land came strongly into his mind, he still remained in Padan-Aram, and evidently it was on account of wages. He made a bargain with his father-in-law about cattle. From this last arrangement he made with Laban he got a good return. He was wealthy when he started his home journey. He sent messengers to Esau who were to tell him of his large belongings; and later he sent droves of cattle to appease his brother. That was not reigning in life.

R.W.S. Peter mentions the Spirit of Christ; is it the Holy Spirit who would give victory in the circumstances specified?

J.T. Yes; the first epistle of Peter has that in mind. It was written "to the sojourners of the dispersion", which would mean pressure and discipline -- they had been driven out from the land and the like,

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but he brings out the features of life in the Spirit. In chapter 4: 12 - 14 he says, "Beloved, take not as strange the fire of persecution which has taken place amongst you for your trial, as if a strange thing was happening to you; but as ye have share in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice, that in the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exultation. If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you: on their part, he is blasphemed, but on your part he is glorified". That expresses the thought under consideration. "The dispersion" involved sufferings. The second book of Psalms contemplates similar circumstances -- persons driven out of Jerusalem, away from the place of their homes and their hopes, with no prospect of immediate relief. But Peter's epistle implies that in those circumstances the believing Jews were victorious; they were reigning in life.

G.V.D. Did not similar conditions prevail in Habakkuk's day? There were oppressors and lawless workings generally, yet the prophet was superior, saying, "Yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation", chapter 3: 18.

J.T. He is an excellent example of the truth we are considering. In the next verse Habakkuk says, "Jehovah, the Lord, is my strength, and he maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon my high places. To the chief Musician. On my stringed instruments". He is not only victorious in life, but moving on heavenly lines. He makes a remarkable contribution to the service of God.

S.F. Do the expressions in Romans 5 "for if" and "much rather" suggest that what is positive is stronger than what is negative?

J.T. That is right. They show the superiority in what came in through Christ over what came in through Adam.

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Ques. Would you say that Paul and Silas were reigning in life in the prison in Philippi?

J.T. A very good illustration. Like Habakkuk, in prayer they sang praises to God.

Justification of life is another phase of our subject. "So then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life" (verse 18). That would indicate that I am justified by life, as James says, before men. What could be a better example of christianity than that?

A.A.T. It involves the testimony.

J.T. Yes. What can you say to a man marked by that feature? In Acts it comes out several times. In chapter 2: 47 the disciples, it is said, had "favour with all the people". Stephen also was a remarkable testimony to this effect of life; Peter and John with the man who had been healed, seen in chapter 4, were also witnesses. And in chapter 5 it is said the apostles were directed to "stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life", Acts 5:20. They went early into the temple and taught. They were examples of the power of life in testimony.

A.P.T. Bowing our heads in thanksgiving to God in public eating places is an evidence of the justification of life.

C.A.M. The effect of this "towards all men" would be seen in the fact that the officers that were dealing with the apostles were afraid to act in violence towards them because of what the people felt; Acts 5:26.

J.T. It is real christianity that we are speaking of, and nothing else will do for representation of God at the present time. Principles in themselves will not do. The truth must be proved in life.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (3)

Romans 6:1 - 23; Romans 8:1 - 14

J.T. Romans 6 contemplates baptism, which is the basis of what is said in the chapter, so that in it believers are viewed in the wilderness, and the truth is worked out from that standpoint; instead of the things coming through Christ to us, they are seen as "in Christ"; and we are in Christ. The first feature stressed is newness of life in the saints as baptised. This is obligatory. We are not, therefore, to carry on as before, as in the flesh; but as having come into christianity, we are expressive of newness before the eyes of men; and then this new manner of walk, bearing Godward, works out in righteousness and holiness unto eternal life. So that, generally, chapter 6 is life in relation to light; whereas chapter 8 is life in relation to the Spirit.

A.P.T. There is much use, in chapter 6, of the prepositions 'to' and 'unto'. Would you say something as to that?

J.T. It shows that the teaching is progressive that is, the believer is moving in relation to certain objectives. Illustrative of this, we have, "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (verse 3). Christ Himself is the primary thought, and then His death. We are baptised to "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", (Matthew 28:19), and we are baptised also to the death of Christ; and so we have, "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God" (verse 10). And so, among other things, we have our fruit unto holiness. It is said, "So now yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness" (verse 19). And again, "But now, having got your

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freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end eternal life" (verse 22). So that it is all prospective and progressive.

J.D. Do you understand from the verses, "We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death?" (verses 2, 3), that baptism, in its teaching, has entered the soul as light?

J.T. Yes; and the soul is set in movement by it. In chapter 5, things have come to us from the divine side. Now we commit ourselves voluntarily, as the eunuch did, to baptism to Christ, and the sequence is that His death must be involved. We are not baptised to a man here on earth, like Mohammed, but to Christ as having died and risen; and as baptised to Him we are baptised unto His death. Baptism is stressed, involving burial with Him. This must eventuate in change of life. There must be newness, because christianity is not simply an addition to religion in this world; it is a wholly new thing; there had been nothing like it -- "newness of life".

C.A.M. You were speaking of moving in light; would you say that this governed the position of Israel after the Red Sea and until they received the Spirit, in type? What you said about life in relation to light, in this chapter, and the Spirit in chapter 8, is striking, and I wondered whether it would apply to the journey of the Israelites.

J.T. It does. The types help in the elucidation of this; they had light as they passed through the Red Sea; and then we come to Sinai, where the covenant was inaugurated. Well, this has to be settled in Romans. Chapter 7 deals with it; so we have another Husband. Our relation with the Lord, in this sense, is a great help in this matter of life. The new Husband strengthens our position in life. We are "to

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another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God" (verse 4). So that God is clearly in mind, and the question of the law at Sinai is adjusted by the truth in Romans 7. In the types, chapter 8 begins properly with the brazen serpent. In general, the journey from Egypt to Canaan is divided into two parts: the first is in connection with the cloud and tabernacle -- the latter starting at Sinai -- that is, light in an objective sense; the second from Beer, the well to which Israel sang (a type of the Spirit), to the Jordan. The latter is not simply life on the principle of light, but life by the Spirit. The Israelites, in type, had received the Spirit, as seen in the springing well. It is said that whoever looked at the brazen serpent lived. The well, as a type, made that a practical thing, so that they moved steadily from that point onward; hence, "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14. That comes out in the typical journey after Beer; Numbers 21.

C.A.M. Do you connect light with the cloud? It was a new order of things for the people after the Red Sea until they drank of the well.

J.T. Yes; the cloud was there even before the Red Sea, but it went through, and it became intelligible, and it became associated with the tabernacle, according to Exodus so it was light. The movement of the tabernacle, or cloud, was a guide for them, but after the springing well (the Spirit subjectively), the tabernacle is hardly alluded to. Henceforth it is a question of the power of the Spirit in us; "the Spirit life on account of righteousness".

J.D. How far has baptism to do with state? "We who have died to sin" (not sins) "how shall we still live in it? Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death?" (verses 2, 3). Is that light in the soul as to the sinful state?

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J.T. It is a question of sin as a principle in the world. Baptism implies that we have died to sin (verse 2). Then verse 10 says, "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God. So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus" (verses 10, 11). That is sin viewed objectively as in the world; not yet a principle operating in the believer. That comes up after Sinai. It is in the believer, dealt with in chapter 7. But we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin as a principle dominating the world. The world's principles and influences are in mind. Believers are not obliged to set them aside in the sense of reforming the world, but to regard themselves as dead to them. We "reckon" thus.

A.N.W. Would you make chapter 6 objective, therefore; and chapter 8, subjective?

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of light in chapter 6, so that sin is an objective thing to which you die. It cannot be sin in you. That we are delivered from by the Spirit; as to the judicial side, of course, it is by the death of Christ; but the actual putting to death is by the Spirit. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (chapter 8: 13), whereas chapter 6 is objective, and eventuates in righteousness and holiness unto eternal life. But it must not be assumed that these features of the truth are independent of each other or experienced separately; they run collaterally in the history of the soul.

A.N.W. It must have been objective to the Lord for Him to die to sin. There cannot be any such thing in Him.

J.S. Was it intelligence on the part of the Ethiopian eunuch to desire baptism?

J.T. Clearly; it developed in his mind out of what the chapter he was reading taught; Philip instructed him, beginning there: he "announced the

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glad tidings of Jesus to him", Acts 8:35. "His life is taken from the earth" -- Christ's life is no longer here.

A.R. As to what you have been saying about chapter 6, is the movement directed through the tabernacle up to the springing well?

J.T. Yes; that is the principle of Numbers 9 and 10; the cloud guided the people. The cloud covered the tabernacle, and when it rose from the tent then the children of Israel journeyed. You do not get that after Numbers 21. Of course, the cloud and tabernacle were there, but they are not mentioned in this connection. The people are reported as moving of themselves after they sang to the well. They went straight forward; whereas, before, they were wandering. They were in a bad state, but the serpent of brass was lifted upon a pole so all could see it, and as many as looked lived; that is, the principle of life was in the look. In the antitype it is a question of faith -- faith and life simultaneously, you might say, in the look. That is the principle, but the life seen there, acquired through looking at the brazen serpent, really involves the Spirit -- the springing well. The well was active and the people sing, "Rise up, well! Sing unto it", Numbers 21:17. There is feeling about it. And from that point onward they moved definitely in the direction of the land of promise. That is simple enough -- it is to me, and I think it ought to be simple and understood by every one of us. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". No other person has the right to claim sonship but those.

A.A.T. I was just trying to get at this thought of newness of life in walking and how it is demonstrated by the believer.

J.T. Well, it is one of the most interesting things we can look at, because it is preceded immediately by the resurrection of Christ; by the glory of the

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Father raising Him -- one of the finest and most weighty statements in the Scriptures; "... even as Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father". The glory here is the shining out of what God is; clearly, it would be, for He has infinite affection for the Son, and this would be active as the Father took Him out of death. And so the passage goes on: "So we also should walk in newness of life". Well, to be simple about this, we may be sure that when the epistle was read in the assembly at Rome, the spiritual would ask the reader to stop a little at this point to ponder the greatness of the statement and its bearing on the believer's walk. The raising of Christ by the glory of the Father is made to enter into this matter of our walk -- that it should be in newness of life.

J.S. Is it in principle seen in the eunuch, after he came out of death, he went on his way rejoicing?

J.T. Yes; picture yourself in Rome with all its imperial glory -- there could be nothing new in it; it was the same glory as in Nimrod's kingdom and all the great kingdoms that came down in history. There was nothing new, simply the world's glory built up; you would see Caesar's palace and all those glories people used to come to see, but they afforded nothing new. The apostle Paul himself alludes to Caesar and his servants; some of them, through the mercy of God, being converted. You might suggest an extended consideration of this subject of the Father's glory before proceeding with the reading of the letter, which evidently Phoebe had brought. And she might tell the brethren that Paul had spoken to them in the East about that; and that this great fact entered into the first day of the week -- the raising of Christ by the glory of the Father. It shines down through the ages -- the inaugurating of the first day of the week; the holy surroundings of the sepulchre which radiated with glory as the Father took the

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Son out of the grave. Think of what it meant! The Father and the Son were there together. In the light of all this it is clear enough that believers must change; they must accept death to the world which crucified Christ, whom the Father just raised by His glory. Every christian in Rome must clearly see that his life must be different. As walking in the light of this chapter, he will not go to court, nor join in any worldly affair. He now reckons himself dead to sin, and alive to God in Christ Jesus. This is the basis for the "walk in newness of life". Accepting it, the saints in Rome would exhibit a wholly new order of things -- walk and ways in which the Father's glory radiate.

J.H.E. Do you see that walk in Enoch?

J.T. Yes; he walked with God. God would not walk with Enoch if he were not in accord with Him.

C.A.M. The word 'patron' is used in connection with Phoebe, as if she had acquired something of this remarkable characteristic.

J.T. She acquired this among the saints where she resided, and evidently came under the apostle's notice in a very special way. He is very complimentary, as has been remarked, in his commendation of her. She would be one of those possibly who had access to society where she lives; but she was now moving about among the brethren, radiating the glory of heaven. She reflected the character of the assembly, corresponding with the "woman of worth" of Proverbs 31. The apostle's commendation of Phoebe indicates that she walked in newness of life. She would, perhaps, visit the sisters in Rome, and one might ask her to go and see some of the shops in the metropolis. Oh, she would say, I have not time for that! People sometimes go to the shops as a sort of pleasure or holiday. Phoebe would not do that. And one could mention many other things that a sister walking in newness of life would object to.

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Paul, in mentioning Phoebe, mentions others also commendable. From his salutations it is clear that they walked in newness of life, and thus they afford an array of glory. There is glory shining in every one of these salutations. We may be sure that Phoebe would specially make the acquaintance of those saluted by the apostle. Thus we can visualise how the truth worked out in Rome; especially how newness of life was exemplified.

R.W.S. Is the truth here specially strengthened in verse 5: "For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death"? The footnote is, "'grown up with' and so thoroughly one".

J.T. Yes. It is the idea of thorough identification with Christ in His death. The likeness of it is baptism. "So also we shall be of his resurrection". This latter is future, but the point is the present; that we are identified with the Lord Jesus in His death, the expression being baptism.

A.B.P. Is there in it the suggestion that we arrive at a true concept of what sin is as having been dealt with in the death of Christ, and in that way, something of the glory of the Father, which was exercised in raising Christ, is also toward us to bring us into the power of walking in newness of life?

J.T. Yes. Colossians goes further than this. It says, "In which ye have been also raised with him", chapter 2: 12. That is baptism in relation to the faith of the operation of God who raised Him from the dead. Romans does not say we are raised with Him, but that "we shall be of his resurrection"; that is, the likeness goes through; complete identification in life. Colossian doctrine is that we are raised with Christ through the faith of the operation of God, and quickened with Him; but here it does not go that far; the apostle is considering for the saints as in the wilderness, not the full thought of our place

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above; thus we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus (verse 11).

A.N.W. Is that not the answer to the "old man" in verse 6: "... knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him"?

J.T. Yes, that is another cumulative thought. "... knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him, that the body of sin might be annulled". He had already referred to sin: "We who have died to sin" (verse 2). But here it is that the body of sin might be annulled. In Colossians it is "the body of the flesh", put off in the circumcision of Christ, going further; but it is the same idea, that the body -- the totality, in each case -- might be annulled. "That we should no longer serve sin", is the end reached in Romans. It is carrying us through logically, as it were, in the mind. If sin comes up -- something that would influence you -- what are you going to do? Well, this is instruction. It is carried forward from the idea of baptism; to be morally logical, you cannot sin because of your identification with Christ in death, who has died to sin once for all.

J.S. Do you connect love with this operation of the Father?

J.T. It was the operation of love; hence the power of it over our souls.

A.B.P. Is that the result of going through baptism experimentally; seeking to take on the full meaning of what baptism involves? We have to do with a sin-hating God. It is not the Father in that respect, is it?

J.T. No, except as regards the glory.

A.B.P. Does that come in more on the side of newness of life? I mean, we have to do with God and with the requirements of His throne in regard to baptism. But we find the love of the Father radiating for us in relation to newness of life.

J.T. Just so; and then responsibility Godward

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as in the wilderness. That is the point He made in mount Sinai. We have to look at mount Sinai in two ways: that is, certain features are figurative of christianity; but legally it is against us; Colossians 2:14. The latter is what Romans 7 deals with. But God is brought in before chapter 7 showing what the wilderness was. "I am Jehovah" -- God constantly pressed that upon them -- that He was God. Now here we have, "So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin" (verse 11). "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all". In the types the death of Christ was constantly before the people: in the Red Sea, and every moment in the tabernacle. In the sacrifices offered it was constantly before them, and then there is the positive side: "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God". His movements in life are towards God. Christ has led the way to God. So that verse 11 says, "So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus". That is a fixed position giving us power in our souls to move in the current of His mind toward God, the tabernacle being involved. That is for the wilderness position. The truth works this out. So throughout this chapter you have the thought of God. "Yield yourselves to God as alive from among the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God" (verse 13). Having God before us, we are worshipful, and, at the same time, we are acquiring wealth. In the types in Exodus, from chapter 19 to chapter 24, we see God coming more and more before the people; in severity at first, so that they learn to fear Him; and then He invites them up to be with Him. As they are above He shows His pleasure in them: they are called "nobles". They saw God and ate and drank. Chapter 25 is based on this, Jehovah expressing His desire that Israel should make Him a sanctuary, that He might dwell among them. That

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is the blessed culmination of the immediate preceding history. Thus we learn in the typical teaching of Exodus how our God leads us along with Himself, culminating in our becoming, by the Spirit, His habitation. Chapter 20 is the assertion of His rights over us, and He speaks of His lovers -- which should touch our hearts. Every true believer wishes to be among the lovers of God. Chapter 25 assumes that the people are lovers of Jehovah: He is not asking them if they have gold, silver, etc.; the thought is that at this juncture they possess such wealth -- also that they have love, for what is needed is to be a heave-offering prompted by the heart.

J.T.Jr. So you think that when the apostle alluded to "the Israel of God" he would have that in mind -- what Israel became to God in the wilderness?

J.T. That is right -- not simply Israel, but Israel of God. He is really stressing that they are His people, a peculiar people. What will He not do for them!

A.R. Is that why Moses leads the people to meet God in chapter 19?

J.T. Quite so; first they are to be there to realise the terrors of Sinai; the consequences of a broken law -- Romans showing how the death and resurrection of Christ delivers us from them all. God is telling them He abhors sin.

But at this point we should keep in mind what we began with as to God, that in all our exercises Godward, to love Him with all our heart, etc., we are acquiring wealth all the time. And so the 'unto', Romans 6:19. In verse 18 we have, "Now, having got your freedom from sin, ye have become bondmen to righteousness". That is another thing -- bondmen to a principle. And also in verse 19, "Yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness"; what we are acquiring, righteousness and holiness -- what we urgently need; and not simply in an objective sense, but what we are developing into

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substantially. The chapter goes on to say, "When ye were bondmen of sin ye were free from righteousness". They did not care anything at all about it. They were heathen and the question did not even come into their minds, and christendom has largely gone back to that. People have but little regard for righteousness. The apostle says, "Ye were free from righteousness. What fruit therefore had ye then in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of them is death". They were corrupt in the worst degree. "But now" (notice the words 'then' and 'now') "having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness". Notice "your fruit"; not yet "fruit unto God", but "your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life". That is the order, so we are built up in wealth and liberty through this process.

F.N.W. Does not Psalm 105 go over this ground somewhat? It speaks about silver and gold; and not one of them stumbled. They had power to walk; then light in the cloud of fire by night; and the breaking forth of the water out of the rock. Possibly Romans 6 and 8 are included in that; the wealth, and the power to serve God.

J.T. Yes. They had "come out with great property", Genesis 15:14. That is to be remembered. I suppose it was not coordinated at the outset; this would take place at Sinai. And they were acquiring wealth all the time from the Red Sea to mount Sinai. This would especially include holiness, which is what God requires, because if He is to have a dwelling place, we must have righteousness and holiness; and then life. All was there (in type, at least), as set out in the items specified in Exodus 25.

J.D. One can see the great point with the apostle in verse 4, "... raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in

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newness of life". In the light of this there is to be newness of life in every one of us.

J.T. The idea of the Father's glory was soon to come up; it was involved in the Spirit's coming in. He proceeded from the Father. The Lord Jesus received the Spirit from the Father and shed Him forth, and the glory at the sepulchre would surely be carried down; in type, the tabernacle becomes the home of it, as you might say. If it is to find a residence there must be practical righteousness, holiness and life.

A.R. I can thus understand how, in Exodus 25, the material for the tabernacle would be a heave-offering; it would suggest affection.

G.V.D. Have you a practical word for us as to verse 17, "But have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which ye were instructed"?

J.T. That enters into what we have just said. They had obeyed from the heart. Chapter 5 says, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". On our side, the Holy Spirit operates in connection with obedience. In Exodus 25, God uses the word 'sanctuary' as well as the word 'dwelling'. The word 'tabernacle' here is 'dwelling', but 'sanctuary' implies holiness. Thus in Romans 6, "righteousness unto holiness". We must have these things in order to make a sanctuary for God.

J.S. After Exodus 20, does Jehovah go on with the people on the basis of committal in the Hebrew servant, who said, "I love ..."?

J.T. The latter is chapter 21, but in chapter 20 you have the "ten words", and then the two altars, and God saying, "In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee" (verse 24). That is chapter 20. It stands in relation to the law in connection with which God speaks of lovers. Then chapter 21 brings in one Lover, a supreme Lover. He has ascending love,

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horizontal love, and descending love. That must be kept in our minds. The bondman is Christ. It is to teach us how to love in the wilderness. It enters into the glory of the tabernacle.

J.D. Did all that come in in connection with the form of teaching? "... have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching" (verse 17)?

J.T. Yes. We were speaking of teaching in John's gospel. Paul makes much of it, indicating graded order in it. The school of Tyrannus suggests that. It is not mentioned for nothing. There is a curriculum in christianity. Paul, in serving at Corinth, calculated what the saints there needed. He says, "I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified", 1 Corinthians 2:2. We have to go through that course. It is "the form of teaching" given at Corinth.

A.B.P. In John 6, the Lord says, "The words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life" (verse 63). In that chapter, He repeatedly says, "... and I will raise him up at the last day". Does there not seem to be a suggestion in that, that He has great delight in raising up those who come into this life as hearing His words? I thought it would link on with the glory of the Father in this great act of raising Christ, and would suggest that those who go through, not turning back when the ministry becomes difficult, yield great joy to the heart of Christ.

J.T. John 6 is that we might go down. Of course if we have gift from God we acquire distinction. But John 6 is for every one of the brethren; it is a difficult chapter, but it is most essential instruction. What is He going to raise up? Those of moral worth, according to what the teaching implies. The Lord went down; He was raised up. That He was a divine Person was involved, but also what He was morally; what He was to God as in testimony here. And that is most important, especially in John's ministry.

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How lowly the Lord was! And how many were going back when He was saying the greatest things He was unfolding eternal life, and asked the disciples, "Will ye also go away?" And Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God".

J.T.Jr. Is that the force of the mind coming into prominence in Romans 7 and 8? The thought of teaching involves the mind.

J.T. Yes. "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law", chapter 7: 25. To the Corinthians he said, "We have the mind of Christ", reminding us that the natural mind is useless; we have to learn how to use our minds as divinely given to us, because the natural mind is corrupt. Hence the need of the renewing of our minds, to prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Chapter 7 brings in the idea of the mind, and in chapter 12 its renewal is spoken of.

A.N.W. The reception is with the mind and obedience is from the heart.

J.T. There is in chapter 7 an allusion to the marriage bond which is seen, in type, in the wilderness. There is the thought of another husband in the antitypical sense. In the legal sense it is Judaism, which influenced, adversely, early Jewish christians, and we have to understand that we are "to be to another". The old marriage bond has been abrogated through death, through believers being made dead through the body of Christ, "to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God". That is because the service of God must go on -- not only the accrual of wealth to ourselves, but unto God. This implies that He is to be served "in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". All that enters into the matter of current, active life. So all our meetings, involving the service

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of God, are to be marked by renewal and consequent refreshment and vigour; thus in them we have life in the sense of serving God in newness of spirit.

A.P.T. In chapter 6, it is "dead to sin". You would say that is a principle, a system of things? In chapter 7, it is "dead to the law". Is the same idea carried out, but in relation to what was really good from God in that sense?

J.T. Yes; the old husband. The early Jewish christians were delivered from the Jewish system by the death and resurrection of Christ. That is how chapter 7 works out. The writer says, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law" (verses 24, 25). So I am free now. I am in control of my mind; and that leads the way for chapter 8 where the Spirit has scope, "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death". The Spirit comes in at once, affording liberty.

J.H.H. Would the woman who had five husbands be an example of what you are saying?

J.T. Yes; it was not the law that was disturbing her, but the vicious life she lived, but now she would be to Another. She moves in life -- the spring within, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

R.W.S. Does the principle of life in chapter 6 lead into eternal life; and is the Spirit more life in activity in chapter 8?

J.T. Yes. The Spirit of life is the first phase mentioned in chapter 8; and verse 6 reads, "For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace"; and verse 10, "But if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness"; and in

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verse 13, "For if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die; but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live: for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". In this chapter active life by the Spirit is contemplated. Chapter 6 finishes the subject of eternal life. Generally progressive experience is contemplated but ending in eternal life. That great blessing is not opened up in Romans. It is a fixed blessing afforded -- "the act of favour of God". To the end of chapter 6 it is mentioned four times in the epistle.

J.D. Presented as an objective thought?

J.T. Yes. Other scriptures show that it is available to be entered into and enjoyed by the believer.

J.D. Would you say a word on the law of the Spirit of life?

J.T. The Spirit of life is the Holy Spirit; the "law" is clearly the principle governing it as over against "the law of sin and death". "Law" is used here in the sense in which it is employed to express principles governing the universe. It is accepted by the mind and worked out experimentally. Paul says of it that it had set him free. So the law of the Spirit of life will certainly become operative in the believer as he gives it scope. It helps us to note that the truth immediately culminating in Romans 8 is extremely experimental; and it is also helpful to note, as already remarked, that the effect of the law of the Spirit of life is reached in an experimental way, as stated by the apostle of himself.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (4)

2 Corinthians 2:14 - 17; 2 Corinthians 4:7 - 11; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 4

J.T. It will be observed that the passages read speak of life somewhat in relation to those who serve; those who carry on the ministry; running on from the idea of odour in ministry. In chapter 5 we see the final effect of life, "... that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life" (verse 4). It is thought that, first, we might connect our subject with the collective position as at Corinth. It includes occasions such as we are presently engaged in, particularly as marked by life operating in those who carry on the ministry. It is carried out in mortal bodies but culminates in this remarkable statement, "while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". Then, the victorious characteristics of the great truth of life. Chapter 15 of the first epistle enlarges on this subject, involving the resurrection of the saints' bodies; persons who have actually died. But what is contemplated here is rather being "clothed"; mortality being thus swallowed up by life. This refers to those who are alive in their mortal bodies when the Lord comes. We can hardly speak of all this with consistency save as we are characterised in some degree by life in our services.

A.P.T. It is remarkable that in chapter 1 the apostle connects two other brothers in the preaching of the Son of God. "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him", 2 Corinthians 1:19.

J.T. The preaching of the Son of God at Corinth in that three-fold testimony would amplify what we have had from Romans, in which we are told that

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Christ is "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", Romans 1:4.

A.R. He also links on Titus in chapter 2: 12: "Now when I came to Troas for the publication of the glad tidings of the Christ, a door also being opened to me in the Lord, I had no rest in my spirit at not finding Titus my brother; but bidding them adieu, I came away to Macedonia. But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ". It shows the peculiar link that must have existed between Paul and such men.

J.T. Both in relation to fellow-servants and also to the saints generally. The minister affects those ministered to, as the apostle says, "we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh; so that death works in us, but life in you", chapter 4: 11, 12. Life is effected in the saints generally by the ministers accepting death. This involves the organism in which God has set us all. It is also seen in chapter 5 of the first letter, in which he says, "For I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged as present, to deliver, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ ..." (verses 3, 4). The principle of it is that we are all affected by the impulse of the Spirit in one or more, so that I think these epistles serve to exercise those who minister, not only as to their words, but themselves. The ministers themselves affect the saints generally, so Paul says further, "For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake", chapter 4: 5. Then all that follows, about "our mortal flesh", has in mind the reaction in the saints' lives -- death working in the servants but life in those ministered to.

A.N.W. What does the idea of odour suggest to you in connection with life?

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J.T. Well, evidently it would be in Paul. He says, "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place", (verse 14). That is the first thing; it is the odour of the knowledge of God; and then, "we are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish". The latter is the most remarkable statement: the odour is not in the persons who refuse the truth but in those who minister the truth. There is something for God in both cases, whether it be in the saved or in those who perish. All involves the ministers; the odour is in them by the Spirit.

J.H.E. Could that be likened to the odour that God smelled when Noah offered up sacrifices? God smelled an "odour of rest".

J.T. Yes. That is a suitable scripture to bring in here. The thought is mentioned early, and it is carried through here in peculiar freshness in Paul's ministry.

A.R. In the verses you read in chapter 2, the use of the words 'us' and 'we' is remarkable; it includes the other ministers with Paul in his ministry.

J.T. Well, the apostle would, in principle, link them with him -- the two that were already mentioned: Silvanus and Timotheus. Hence the preachings are so important, even though there may not be conversions -- where the power is, there is fragrance.

C.N. Is that why he asked, "Who is sufficient for these things?" (verse 16)?

J.T. Yes; it is not simply that one can preach, and present the truth of the gospel; the odour of it must go with it, and that involves life.

A.B.P. It is an odour in them and an odour to them according to the passage read.

J.T. The odour would be in the minister. "We are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish: to the one an odour from death

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unto death, but to the others an odour from life unto life"; the 'to' would mean, I think, that the preaching bore on the persons who heard, whether they refused or received the truth. What they heard would involve the fragrance of the gospel. The allusion is to a triumphal procession in which odorous drugs were burnt. Some in the procession, including captives through the victory celebrated, would be appointed to death, others to life: all sharing in the odour.

C.A.M. Ephesians 5 speaks of Christ loving us and delivering Himself up for us "an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour" (verse 2). That would be the fragrance of the burnt-offering, would it not?

J.T. Yes; as in Genesis 8, already alluded to "Jehovah smelled a sweet savour". In the testimony of the gospel there could be no odour save in the sacrificial death of Christ entering into it. That is how I would understand 'to' in the unsaved person. You might say, It is useless. But it is not; the preaching being in such power as is contemplated here, was fragrant to God anyway, and it bore on the responsibility of the persons who were lost. The fragrance of the death of Christ through the gospel is part of the testimony. Even as the gospel is refused, the fragrance of Christ is there.

C.A.M. Would that be exemplified in Noah's preaching? It was not received. Then there was the fragrance of the sacrifices in the new world.

J.T. I think that section of Scripture bears on this. Noah's preaching was evidently about one hundred and twenty years, contemporary with the building of the ark. Was it all for nothing? It was for nothing as far as external appearances went, but certainly not in the nostrils of God. According to Peter, Christ Himself preached at that time: "... put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in

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which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison ... in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing", 1 Peter 3:18 - 20. Jehovah had said, "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man", Genesis 6:3. That striving would not be barren as regards the effect on God Himself, any more than the hovering of the Spirit over the waters; Genesis 1:2. Divine feelings would be expressed in these actions of the Spirit. It would be in a mediatorial way. It is the Spirit of God, and God would gain from His activities; it was not all barrenness. The action brings God in, in effect, from the outset -- not disappointedly, but from the exigency of the purposes of His love.

C.A.M. I think that is remarkable. It seems to my mind to throw light on the fragrance of Noah's burnt-offerings and on God's ways before. Everything must be fragrant to God in that way.

J.T. Even in the creation this is true. Wisdom said it delighted in what was done. Well, God must have had something in that. It was all mediatorial. Even creation was mediatorial work: "by whom also he made the worlds", Hebrews 1:2; and the recovery of the earth from the state it was in, as described in Genesis, must have occasioned something for God. It could not be barren, inasmuch as there was a divine Person operating, and so in Noah's day, "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man". But when you come to the burnt-offerings, they were not at the beginning of the operations of Noah, but at the end. It was a renewed earth that came in, and it was from the divine side, under the fragrance of the burnt-offerings. Undoubtedly all was connected with Noah, even including his preaching and other services before the deluge.

A.N.W. Would the thing be seen in some way in John 12? The house was filled with the odour, diversely affecting one, at least.

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J.T. Yes. Judas' attitude could not detract from it. In truth it would be an odour of death to him.

A.P.T. In Peter's first epistle, to which you have referred, he speaks about the eight that were saved. The odour of life was in the saved, and the odour of death unto death was in those who came under the penalty of the flood.

J.T. Quite so; the odour of death must in some sense reflect the death of Christ. There could not be anything for God aside from that. So it opens up a good deal as to what God had throughout in His operations. The preaching of Noah, in measure, corresponded with the preaching of Paul.

W.R. The same scripture says, "... but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison", 1 Peter 3:19. Who would the 'he' refer to, and who are those in prison?

J.T. Those in prison are the ungodly to whom Noah preached, when the longsuffering of God waited in his days. So the savour would be there in the preaching of Noah. It is the retroactive ministry of Christ. The preaching was His, but through Noah. The statement is striking: "made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached". The preaching was through Noah, but it was the Spirit of Christ in a retroactive sense and the savour would be there; death was there in the flood. It was not negative; there was something for God in it, because God's Spirit had been striving there through Noah. Anyone with any sensibility Godward would know what was there, but the Lord says, "as it took place in the days of Noe, thus also shall it be in the days of the Son of man: they ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them" (Luke 17:26, 27); that is, they were wicked and indifferent to the gospel, but nevertheless God was getting something from the preaching. The

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longsuffering of God brought Him into the position as it brought Him into Paul's position in a later day. In this connection it is remarkable that Jehovah smelled the "odour of rest" in Noah's offerings; and this affects the whole period of the earth's service "all the days of the earth".

W.G.T. So the preaching took place in the days of Noah; not while the spirits were in prison, but during their life here on earth.

J.T. That is right; they were marrying and giving in marriage; they were carrying on, disregarding the gospel.

A.B.P. Would this passage suggest that ministry should appeal to all the senses; not only that we sit and hear the words, but there should be discernment through the spiritual senses, such as smell, taste and sight? Should not the whole being, so to speak, be affected?

J.T. Just so. It makes God victorious all the time, and us, too -- "thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph"; this refers to apostolic service, but there is what corresponds in all true evangelical ministry. Therefore, we are to be encouraged that our labour is not in vain in the Lord.

A.P.T. The word 'odour' appears also inverse 14, "and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place". That is a remarkable word. Does it refer to the movements of the Lord's servants?

J.T. I would say that wherever Paul went, there was such fragrance. Take Philippi, for example; what fragrance was there in the sufferings of Paul and Silas, and the ultimate result in the gospel!

A.R. Is this going on all the time -- since Pentecost, but especially in our day when apostasy is developing?

J.T. Quite so; God is not living in disappointment. He is always victorious because of the fragrance there is in the death of Christ, and the ministry

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carrying that forward. The Spirit maintains it. The holy anointing oil, which was fragrant, enters into this. Christ, as anointed, went about doing good, for God was with Him. There was continued fragrance there.

R.W.S. Is the allusion to trading, in the last verse, a warning to those who serve, lest they lose their scent in making a trade of divine things?

J.T. There would not be any fragrance in that, nor sensibility to odour either.

Now chapter 4 carries on this thought in the ministry. The apostle says, "Therefore, having this ministry, as we have had mercy shown us, we faint not ... But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake" (verses 1 - 5). He is still occupied with what characterised himself and his preaching; and what he had in mind was that in his body -- his mortal flesh -- the life of Jesus should be manifested.

J.S. You would see radiancy in his body.

J.T. You would; and even napkins taken from it effected cures, showing the virtue there was in that body. It may at any time become cold in death, but whilst the Spirit of God was there, life as it shone in Jesus was expressed there. The apostle was always bearing about in his body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in his body. God would have it thus; and so Paul says, "We who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh" (verse 11). He continues, "So that death works in us, but life in you".

C.A.M. You made an allusion to 1 Corinthians 15.

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I wanted to ask you as to whether that does not imply that there is an inward spiritual change taking place in the saints in view of all that glorious external thing. I was wondering whether the second epistle shows this is now taking place in some inward way in the saint, contemplating this mortal being swallowed up.

J.T. The swallowing up is in the application of life to us as we are at this moment. Romans 8 says, "he ... shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you" (verse 11). This links with what you allude to as spoken of in 2 Corinthians. Paul says, "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this we groan, ardently desiring to have put on our house which is from heaven; if indeed being also clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we who are in the tabernacle groan, being burdened; while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life", 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 4. What you suggest as to an inward continuous change in the saints is what is in mind in the passage in chapter 4, which reads, "Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day. For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory" (verses 16, 17). Now there you have the renewal day by day which is wholly spiritual. In this sense, there is no change taking place in our bodies. But when we are 'clothed', the body is changed -- made to correspond with what we are inwardly. What we are inwardly, our spiritual being, is renewed day by day. "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory". That is, there is something going on that is covered by those wonderful

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words. But the body is untouched by these things it may be sickly although there can be no doubt that the body of a believer is affected by piety as it comes under the government of God; but it is mortal, however godly he may be.

J.H.E. What we do outwardly is the result of what we are inwardly, is it not? Stephen's face was as that of an angel; there was an inward work there.

J.T. Yes; the mortal provisionally serves to express the spiritual, which is what the apostle stresses in chapter 4, as we have been noting.

A.N.W. Does not 'swallowed up' suggest a sudden action, and is this not coincidental with the word in 1 Corinthians 15, that death is swallowed up in victory?

J.T. Yes. Clothing is a literal act of God that takes place in the twinkling of an eye. It is the transformation of our bodies of humiliation into conformity to Christ's body of glory; it is regarded here from the standpoint of the believer's experience and desire rather than doctrinally, as in 1 Corinthians 15.

R.W.S. The treasure is still in the earthen vessel -- a fragile vessel.

J.T. Just so; it is there while we are in that condition. It is not there while you are in the grave. It is a provisional condition we are in now; so it can be said, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels". But as soon as I die, all is negative until the Lord comes. While the Spirit is in me here, I am regarded as alive. "We, the living who remain". So the change, according to Romans 8, is "on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". Administratively, all comes under the Lord Himself -- the Lord Himself descends. The Holy Spirit does not take us to heaven, although it is manifest that He has part in the great transaction. The Father, the Son and the Spirit have part in the raising, quickening and translation of the saints.

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R.W.S. Is the working of God in us now connected with the earthen vessels?

J.T. The earthen vessels are used as a provisional condition in which God is pleased to set His testimony. The earthen vessel is fragile. It might seem like a worm on the street, trampled at any time and destroyed; but it is not; God looks after it. The present testimony is carried on in earthen vessels, and not only so, but in mortal ones. The great triumph is that God can preserve us while in our present condition. The apparent fragility of the vessels employed shows that the surpassingness of the power is of God and not from us.

W.G.T. Gideon's torches were to remain in the pitchers until the pitchers were broken.

J.T. That is right; the allusion here is to Gideon. Going back to Gideon helps; the light was inside and when the vessel was broken, the light shone out.

A.B.P. Would the selection of those who went with Gideon link on here too? They were evidently those who were not unduly concerned about their bodies.

J.T. Yes. They were laying down their lives, you might say. The three hundred persons (against myriads of Midianites) had already begun to lay down their lives when they lapped the water; they were typically full of the testimony, surrendering natural comfort and propriety because of it. They did not consider for themselves. They lapped like a dog. That would mean that they were not governed by mere natural feelings, implying ease and consequent delay; very little time would be consumed in the transaction, and so they could quickly proceed to the conflict. It is a question of touching lightly what is naturally necessary. Leadership enters into it, and the breaking of the earthen vessel.

A.P.T. In the first scripture we read, is the life active Godward -- what God gets in the odour?

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whereas in chapter 4, is it more the testimony horizontally; how we are manifesting this light?

J.T. That is right; the effect is in the saints -- "life in you" -- "Death works in us", says the apostle, "but life in you". That is to say, Gideon's vessel and those of the three hundred were broken; the light shone; the testimony was sounded; and the result was Israel's deliverance.

A.R. Chapter 4: 4 speaks of the "radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ". That is, I suppose, what was shining in the ministry.

J.T. Yes. God had shone in Paul's heart. And now he alludes to Gideon's pitchers as types; being fragile, and having torches in them, they symbolise the Lord's servants in their mortal bodies. The apostle himself had been drawn out of the city of Lystra as dead; but, as he says in our chapter, he was "not destroyed", for as the disciples encircled him, he rose up and entered into the city and on the morrow resumed his service.

J.S. Is that leadership in death?

J.T. Yes; it is the acceptance of it, as Paul describes it here: "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us: every way afflicted, but not straitened; seeing no apparent issue, but our way not entirely shut up; persecuted, but not abandoned; cast down, but not destroyed" (verses 7 - 9). That is what was happening to him from without, but "always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body". This latter was from his own side. God's thought was that through Paul's afflictions the saints should be helped; therefore the apostle says, "So that death works in us, but life in you". It is a remarkable turning of the outwardly adverse circumstances of a servant to the profit of those he served.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (5)

Isaiah 38:19, 20; Colossians 2:12, 13; Ephesians 2:4 - 7

J.T. In what has come before us so far in our subject, life in its present activity has been stressed. We looked at certain passages in 2 Corinthians last month, connecting our subject with those whom the Lord uses to minister the truth. It is thought that we should now look at Colossians and Ephesians.

The subject of quickening is especially in mind as essential to the service of God. And so Hezekiah's remarks in the passage read in Isaiah furnish a good introduction from the Old Testament -- from one who had been down into death, as it were, and had his life extended for fifteen years. The experience he had led him to value life as he had not valued it before; hence he now says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day ... . And we will play upon my stringed instruments all the days of our life, in the house of Jehovah" (verses 19, 20). We therefore have an excellent introduction by one who has had experience in death but now is typically made to live. This is enlarged upon in Colossians and in Ephesians; so that as we afresh look into the truth in those epistles we may be able to speak more experimentally about life.

J.T.Jr. Do the stringed instruments suggest David's instruction?

J.T. It rises to David's ministry; indeed, he made instruments of praise; 1 Chronicles 23:5. So that we may take Hezekiah as representative of the house of David; he is addressed here in that sense. The historical books record much of the service of song in Hezekiah's reign, and all is much linked with David. In 2 Chronicles we have the highest thoughts, typically, represented in Hezekiah. So he may be

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rightly used as introducing us into Colossians and Ephesians.

J.W.D. Do you look upon this thought of playing as a quality of life?

J.T. Yes. Playing on stringed instruments would require agile and trained fingers. Cramped or paralysed fingers which, spiritually, would be found with us if we are not with God, could hardly use such instruments. So that the free action of life is required. This enters into what Hezekiah says in verse 19: "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day".

A.R. Earlier in the chapter he says, "In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol". Does that mean that he has gone that distance literally?

J.T. Well, he had experience in death in that anticipative way. He further says, "I am deprived of the rest of my years". He was a comparatively young man. He had come to the end of his days, as he thought, so that he had the experience of death anticipatively and therefore he represents a risen man such as Colossians suggests.

J.H.E. Does this correspond with what the Lord says: "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose it shall preserve it", Luke 17:33?

J.T. Hezekiah was losing his life, and Jehovah gave him fifteen years; but that is typical, of course; life in the true sense is in the antitype. He had given up his life. He says, "I have cut off like a weaver my life. He separateth me from the thrum -- from day to night thou wilt make an end of me" (verse 12).

A.N.W. Have you in mind his statement, "In all these things is the life of my spirit" (verse 16)?

J.T. That enters into what we are saying; a man is speaking to us who had experience with death. Paul speaks of "so great a death", a tribulation in

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which he despaired of living, "But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead: who has delivered us from so great a death", 2 Corinthians 1:9.

R.W.S. Is the depth of this character of experience more or less an index to the enjoyment of life?

J.T. Just so. And hence, as I said, I thought Hezekiah's remarks form an excellent introduction to our subject, because Colossians contemplates the believer as dead. "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above ... for ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God", Colossians 3:1 - 3. Thus Colossians affords light which works out into experience of death and resurrection with Christ. If we are to be in the assembly according to God, this experience is essential.

W.R. "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh", Ecclesiastes 1:4. I was wondering as to whether this passage links with what Hezekiah says, "The father to the children shall make known thy truth" (Isaiah 38:19), whether he is showing the coming generation how the service of God is to be maintained.

J.T. Yes; it is to go on in a living way. One great principle of this dispensation is that what it began with in the Spirit's power was to be carried down. So that we now are sharing in what others have experienced and put into effect. Hezekiah is, I think, a type of such men. Largely through their teaching and example we know how to serve God; the Lord, we may say, constantly helps as to assembly service through teaching that comes to us currently.

J.T.Jr. Is David's charge to Solomon in regard to the house and Solomon's ministry confirmatory of this?

J.T. That is clearly seen in 1 Chronicles. David had accumulated what was needed so far for the

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house and then he said to Solomon, "And thou shalt add to it" (1 Chronicles 22:14); so that the addition would be in Solomon; and others following also added. That was a principle established. And so now we have a son of Solomon, and of David, in Hezekiah and he is adding. According to this record he added to the service of God. What is in mind is that the younger men should add to what there is; but the addition must be according to what has come down to us as divinely given. And that is what Hezekiah is doing. He is adding to what was there. We have nothing in what preceded just like what is seen here.

T.E.H. Would the young man Eutychus (Acts 20), add to the service of God as he was brought back to life, no little comfort being derived?

J.T. That is the principle. "They brought away the boy alive": note that he was alive. This helps as to our general subject. We have a good many young ones among us, and we often talk about them. Practically, as spiritually alive, each one is an addition. Eutychus was of value. We may say that in Troas there was no boy like him, for he was received from the dead. So undoubtedly he would be nurtured in the assembly as one that would be characteristically of Paul's company.

A.R. Does what you have in mind involve not only death but also the idea of burial? Hezekiah refers to "Sheol" which involves the grave.

J.T. Quite so -- "Buried therefore with him by baptism unto death", Romans 6:4. Romans prepares us for Colossians in that sense; but you can see in Hezekiah how he had been in the thing thoroughly, and Paul says, "I die daily". How real was his experience of death!

A.B.P. At a previous meeting, we had the thought of the power of life in Romans, and then in Corinthians, the fragrance of life. Does melody of life come in here?

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J.T. Very good; this latter marks David's ministry. He made much of the instruments of music; and Hezekiah following, speaks of "my stringed instruments". Habakkuk comes in later as another who added to the service with similar suggestions. He adds "my high places", which would be Ephesians. He says, "Jehovah ... maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon my high places", Habakkuk 3:19. He also says, "To the chief Musician. On my stringed instruments". He added to the service of God.

C.N. You said that the experience of death is a necessity for the enjoyment of this life. Would you help us as to how this death is experienced by us?

J.T. It was implied in the reading on Romans 6. That chapter says, "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (verse 3). Evidently, the Romans were not making much of His death. They were recognising that baptism was to Christ, so far right but the apostle was stressing in Romans that it was to His death, and he led in that way, especially according to what he says to the Corinthians. In the first epistle he speaks of dying daily, and of persons being baptised for the dead; and in the second letter he speaks of the "great death" that in some sense he had experienced. He also speaks there of the odour of his preaching "from death unto death". So that in those epistles, in the apostle himself, we have an example of one who had been into death experimentally. It was very real.

J.W.D. Hezekiah, before he became sick, was much engaged with musical instruments, and he comes back in life and is again occupied with them. Do you see development in that?

J.T. Yes. It was the end that God had in mind in the experience He brought him through. His death was divinely ordered. "In those days Hezekiah

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was sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, Thus saith Jehovah: Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die and not live" (verse 1). It was directly ordered of God as He had ordered Moses' death, and Aaron's death, and clearly with the object in view that he might have the experience of death in the continuance here of the service of God, and that he might add to it -- that he should know how to use musical instruments in that service more efficiently than he had used them before -- as a risen man.

A.N.W. And not only musical instruments, but in this case, stringed instruments. Did the experience of death involve that those stringed instruments were tuned afresh?

J.T. Yes. We often speak of the difference between stringed instruments and wind instruments. Of course wind is more suggestive of life, but stringed instruments are of a higher order. They bring in what is heavenly. So Habakkuk brings in the idea of high places, and hinds' feet. But we are, as it were, in the presence of a man, in Hezekiah, who has been through death in his soul, and now he can say, "We will play upon my stringed instruments all the days of our life, in the house of Jehovah".

F.N.W. Was he alluding in what he says to 'these things' in connection with life in verse 16?

J.T. Yes. You can see what an experience he had, for "In those days Hezekiah was sick unto death" (verse 1). That is a serious matter, to be sick unto death. You may bring the doctor, but the man was sick unto death. The Lord Himself was "sorrowful even unto death". It was a real thing anticipated beforehand, and then the further word is, "The prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, Thus saith Jehovah: Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die". That is confirming the thing, that he is sick unto death. It is the word of

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God. It is God's ordering, and Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed, etc., and then we have the encouraging word that he is to live for fifteen years. And then after his recovery he tells in his writing what his experience was. The fact that it is a writing shows it is not only for his own generation, but for later generations. So he goes on to tell us how he felt when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness; that is, he is now a risen man typically, but he is able to give an account of his experience. We may compare him with persons in the New Testament who were raised from the dead. Take the young man of Nain -- what could he say? Or Jairus' daughter, even; a girl of twelve -- what could she say about her experience? What could Lazarus say about his experience? We are not told what they said or what they could say, but we can understand that they had solemn and searching experiences. Well, we need to understand what that is spiritually now; what can each of us say of the experience of going through death in a moral way? God puts you through circumstances where it is nothing else but that, and then He takes you out of them.

J.S. Is this experience in view of teaching?

J.T. It is in view of the service of God in His house. That is what we are seeking to get to in the account Hezekiah gives. He says, "I said, In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see Jah, Jah in the land of the living. With those who dwell where all has ceased to be, I shall behold man no more" (verses 10, 11). No true believer would say that now. But Hezekiah evidently had no more light. But how dreadful the anticipation "where all has ceased to be". He further says, "Mine age is departed, and is removed from me as a shepherd's tent. I have cut off like a weaver my life.

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He separateth me from the thrum: -- from day to night thou wilt make an end of me. I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones. From day to night thou wilt make an end of me. Like a swallow or a crane, so did I chatter; I mourned as a dove; mine eyes failed with looking upward: Lord, I am oppressed; undertake for me" (verses 10 - 14). That is all historical; Hezekiah is out of the exercise, but he is telling us about it. And then he says, "What shall I say? He hath both spoken unto me, and himself hath done it. I shall go softly all my years in the bitterness of my soul". That is the result that God foresaw, and now he says: "Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit; and thou hast recovered me, and made me to live". That is the man. "All these things": they are not the great things of his life as a king, as men would say, but they are the things by which he was living. That is a man who is playing his stringed instruments in the house of God.

J.S. Is that why he adds, "Jehovah was purposed to save"?

J.T. Quite so; and he also refers to Jehovah's love for him: "Thou hast in love delivered my soul from the pit of destruction; for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back" (verse 17). That is to be especially noticed because we are now approaching the service of God in His house. His delivering love has this in view; the assembly's great eternal place and portion in heaven is the answer to God's "great love wherewith he loved us", Ephesians 2:4.

R.W.S. And then does he discover others who had the same experience? The 'I' and 'me' change, in verse 20, to 'we' and 'our'.

J.T. Quite so; others would join in the prolonged service contemplated -- "all the days of our life". And that is what we are aiming at now; that the

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brethren, as in life, might enter feelingly into the service of God; even in the singing of a hymn; that our hearts might be fully drawn into it.

J.W.D. Would you say the measure of our participation in the service of God stands in relation to the measure in which we have experienced death?

J.T. That is what I thought we might learn from Hezekiah's account of what he experienced. And so in Colossians, for the apostle furnishes us with names of some Colossian saints. Well, we need, as it were, to set ourselves down in company with the Colossian saints and consider as to how this epistle would affect them and compare the result with the epistle's effect on ourselves. Chapter 2: 12 says, "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead" (verse 12). Paul's exercise was to arrive at the resurrection from among the dead, not simply as a matter of faith, but of realisation; Philippians 3:11. And we see in Colossians how the apostle had in mind that they should be brought on to a status of resurrection, especially for assembly service, that we should reach that state of things in power. It is a question of faith laying hold of the energetic working of God in raising Christ from among the dead. It is through the faith of that that we are able to take the ground of resurrection in assembly service.

W.G.T. The word is 'active internal power', according to the footnote.

J.T. It is the thought of 'energy'. In Ephesians our being risen with Christ is not stressed; it is our being raised up to heaven that is the point; that we are quickened and raised up to a heavenly place and status. Resurrection itself does not take us off the earth; Ephesians contemplates us in heaven, and sitting there. And that involves quickening, our

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being taken out of death with Christ by the mighty power of God.

J.S. With a view that we might strike a higher note?

J.T. Yes; that is in view; our blessings are in the heavenlies.

A.B.P. Where does the "unconquered" daughter of Zion come into this? She seems to be the focal point in God's mind in Isaiah 37. I wonder if she might suggest that form of power you were speaking of?

J.T. Quite so; it is the virgin-daughter. It would mean moral superiority, I think, to the Assyrian influence; but then in the same connection you have, "the remnant ... shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward", chapter 37: 31. That has the same thing in mind only in the idea of life expressed in a vegetable figure.

F.N.W. The apostle speaks of "the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death" (Philippians 3:10), is that taking root downward?

J.T. Yes; "being conformed to his death"; and that he might arrive at the resurrection from among the dead; and then to reach the goal, which is the calling on high. "The calling on high of God in Christ Jesus" is Ephesian truth.

F.S.C. Did you say arriving at the resurrection from among the dead was apart from faith?

J.T. No; while we are down here faith must always enter into our exercises; but arriving at the resurrection from among the dead is a question of energy operating in us. We could not attain to it without the Spirit, however clearly our minds might take it in.

J.W.D. Is the word 'ye' in Colossians 2:12 the idea of an assembly position in life to which I am drawn?

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J.T. A collective position is contemplated, leading to the body in verse 19. "He has quickened together with him", verse 13 strengthens that. "Together" means that we are collectively linked up with Christ in the quickening.

A.N.W. Whereas in Ephesians the "together" is that we are together?

J.T. Yes, raised up to heaven by ourselves. Christ is not mentioned until we come to "in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus"; not with Him, but in Him; that is, status above. The quickening in Ephesians is with Him. God has quickened us "with the Christ"; that is, that He has been in death, and we have been there, too -- "dead in offences", and now we are quickened with the Christ. Then the next statement is "... has raised us up together", that is, with each other. It is not a question of Christ being raised but the saints raised together, and not in the sense of resurrection as in Colossians, but raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ.

A.R. What you are speaking about will presently take place externally when our bodies are changed; whereas by the power of the Spirit operating in us now we are changed internally?

J.T. Exactly. The Spirit being here, we have christianity. Without the Spirit, however much light we may have, we could not have christianity nor the assembly. It is important to bear that in mind.

J.W.D. What would be the difference between known energy in our souls in a Colossian sense, and the use of the Spirit in Romans 8?

J.T. There is not much difference only Colossians stresses faith and the working of God, who raised Christ. Note, "ye have been also raised", which is not said in Romans. Nor is it said in Ephesians, the heavenly position being stressed there. You get it in

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chapter 1: "The surpassing greatness of his power towards us", but we are not said to be raised by it; the heavenly position is in view. In Colossians the working of God is specially part of our faith, and hence our being raised with Christ is intelligible: the moral point would be our complete transference from the earth to resurrection ground. The Colossians were in danger of earthly things which might be regarded as good things in themselves; and the thought of resurrection involving the power of God laid hold of by faith implies a basis of transfer from the earth and hence deliverance.

Ques. Is that why the apostle says, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ", Colossians 3:1?

J.T. Yes, "... seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth; for ye have died" (verses 2, 3). That is what is called a hypothetical statement; that one thing depends upon another. If I am risen, according to chapter 2, the next thing is that I am dead, like "the dead man Lazarus"; still in Bethany, but dead in this moral sense.

A.P.T. In John 11, Lazarus has grave-clothes on which would be removed; I was wondering if there would be any link with what we read in Colossians; certain things had been taken out of the way.

J.T. Quite so. "Having effaced the handwriting in ordinances which stood out against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it also out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (verse 14). That is what Paul is doing at Colosse. Like Lazarus, the saints there were risen, but they needed to be loosed and let go.

W.G.T. Is burial emphasised more in Colossians than in Ephesians? In Ephesians, we are said to have been "dead in offences" whereas Colossians,

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while it also says this, adds "buried with him in baptism".

J.T. I think so. We are not said to be risen in Romans, but Romans leads to Colossians where we are said to be "buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him". It is remarkable that baptism becomes here a figure of resurrection as well as of death; 'in which' implies this. Coming out of the water is a figure of resurrection. The apostle is using what is obvious: that the baptised person comes out of the water. It is that you are positively away from the earth, that is, in a moral sense. You do not go back to earthly ways. He is dealing with the earth.

A.N.W. Does that mean we rehearse the baptism in our own souls?

J.T. Just so. We maintain the thought of it. In Romans we are told that we should walk in newness of life; but Colossians goes beyond this, the earth being in mind, the "good" side of the earth.

R.W.S. Is that why the companionship 'with him' is mentioned, to make it practical to leave that kind of a world for another?

J.T. That is it; if you love the Lord Jesus, you like the thought of being with Him; and then, of course, there is companionship with the brethren also.

J.S. Do you not have a change of soil in Ephesians, being rooted and grounded in love?

J.T. You do; the assembly in its formation is more pronounced in Ephesians than Colossians. Ephesians is the full thought of God: the saints set down together in heavenly places.

A.R. We often speak anticipatively of being thus all together; in principle we have it when we come together in assembly every first day of the week.

J.T. That is the idea. So Ephesians is essential to the service of God in its heavenly character. We belong to heaven. How often do we touch that?

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Very seldom. But we should go out on that note because we are to be here as a heavenly people; no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints, and of the household of God.

J.A.P. Elisha, identifying himself with the child and raising him up, would fit in with your thought of Colossians?

J.T. Yes. The type foreshadows Colossians. The child's trouble was in his head. In the process of restoring him the prophet "walked in the house to and fro", as if there was something in it that had damaged his mind. Placing himself on the child, as described, would imply that as restored he would take character from Elisha.

W.G.T. Is burial an intelligent way of dealing with death?

J.T. It is; it is a real thing to be buried like Lazarus, buried four days, it is said. It is to bring out the reality of death. Burial belongs to death.

A.B.P. Is this quickening an advance on resurrection?

J.T. They are collateral, not as occurring together instantaneously, but in general bearing; I am speaking of them literally. In this sense quickening is first historically and in some connections it includes the body: resurrection "shall quicken your mortal bodies", Romans 8:11. But in Colossians resurrection is mentioned first, only it is a matter of faith, as we have seen; whereas quickening is actual as it affects us down here and it does not, in this sense, affect our bodies.

A.B.P. Is resurrection an act of power outside of us, whereas quickening is what happens within us?

J.T. I would say that. When a man is about to be actually raised from the dead, something happens in him immediately before, because he hears the voice of Jesus; John 5:28. How does he hear it? Something

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has happened in him corresponding with quickening.

J.T.Jr. I suppose we learn quickening experimentally now in the assembly. How do we act in the assembly? Why are there those who are practically dead in it?

J.T. That enters into what we have been saying -- that the living praise God. In Ephesians quickening is put before the raising up into heaven; whereas in Colossians the resurrection is before quickening. The apostle stresses faith in relation to power, enabling the believer to take resurrection ground, because, as we have been saying, it is a question of overcoming earthly conditions.

J.W.D. Do the words "in the which" cover the thought of buried with Him?

J.T. Yes; the words refer to baptism, which symbolises burial and resurrection, as we have been saying. Association with Christ in burial and resurrection is in mind.

A.R. Twelve stones on the banks of the Jordan would be a witness to what you are saying.

J.T. Yes; they represent the people as having come out of Jordan. That is the idea; and as we have often been taught, the Red Sea and the Jordan coalesce. We have to understand that word, especially as there were forty years between the crossing of the Red Sea and the crossing of the Jordan.

J.W.D. Is the thought of quickening something experimental, following on the possession of the Spirit?

J.T. It is, and that is, I believe, why there is so little mention of the Spirit in Colossians, whilst there is a great deal said of Him in Romans and in Ephesians; it is His work that is in mind in Colossians. You need that to understand what coming out of the water means; that it is resurrection; that is, I am

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free from the earth as well as from the world. Coming out of the Red Sea, Israel entered the wilderness, which Romans contemplates. Colossians is an up line, Canaan being in view. Thus the exhortation, "Have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth".

F.N.W. Does Mary reach that point in her soul in John 20 in being absorbed with Christ? She is ready for the ascending line.

J.T. Just so; as the people cross the Jordan, much is made of the ark, especially as in the river. There is no ark in the Red Sea. It is at the Jordan the ark is seen in the water, and it remains there, until the people all go over as following it, but after they go out of Jordan, there are twelve stones taken up out of the water, meaning that they had been there. Colossians contemplates that we "have died". The twelve stones mean that the Israelites had been in Jordan and that they started a new history there. They came up out of the water, but after that there were certain experiences needed before they partook of the old corn of the land, that is, for us, in the antitypes, food proper to heaven, that in the counsels of God we are indigenous to it.

T.E.H. When the Lord Jesus came up out of the Jordan He prayed. Is there a sense of dependence as you come out?

J.T. Quite so; you can see the example He sets, as coming up out of the water. He prayed, and while He was praying the Holy Spirit came upon Him. That is the principle, that power keeps you in the wilderness.

A.R. Would you say more about the idea of the saints as in heaven? We can understand in a little way the idea of resurrection which takes place on earth; whereas according to Ephesians we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies.

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J.T. Romans regards us as in the wilderness. We are said to be dead to sin. Colossians says "ye are dead" like "the dead man Lazarus". Ephesians teaches us that we belong to heaven -- in this period of testimony the Holy Spirit takes us there:

"And see! the Spirit's power
Has ope'd the heav'nly door,
Has brought us to that favoured hour
When toil shall all be o'er". (Hymn 74)

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (6)

Revelation 2:7, 10; Revelation 4:6 - 11

J.T. It is thought that the feature of the general subject before us, suggested in the "living creatures", as mentioned in Revelation 4, connects with our last reading in which we considered life in Colossians and Ephesians; that is, quickening in both these epistles, as qualifying us for the service of God and association with Christ in life. Hezekiah was alluded to because he speaks of the living praising God. It is believed that what has already been said on the subject of life will be augmented by looking at these scriptures in Revelation, enabling us to carry on the service of God in the midst of apostate conditions. The thought of life runs through the whole book. The Lord introduces Himself to John as the living One who became dead and is alive for evermore. The tree of life is a sort of main sub-division of our subject today. It is found in chapter 2 and in chapter 22.

We should begin with the tree of life as suggestive of life according to the purpose of God. It is not simply to meet conditions here. It was a divine thought before sin came into the world and will remain after sin is dealt with -- put away from the universe; for it seems to be always connected with its own proper environment: the garden in Genesis 2 and the heavenly city in Revelation.

A.P.T. Primarily, there was no prohibition on the tree of life, was there?

J.T. No. Prohibition was first on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil only.

A.B.P. There is no suggestion of diversified fruits in Genesis. Would you consider the twelve fruits in Revelation 22:2 as resulting from what has transpired between Genesis and Revelation?

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J.T. Yes; the idea of administration enters into them. The twelve fruits seem to be a millennial connection.

A.N.W. Does the position of the tree in the midst of the garden denote that it dominates the situation?

J.T. Yes. It is said to be "in the paradise of God" in Revelation 2 and in chapter 22 it says, "In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life" (verse 2), as if it were in a dominating position throughout. It would be Christ as the expression of life, made available to us in the sense of growth. The meaning of its central position is very obvious.

A.B. How do you understand that verse you quoted from chapter 22: "In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life"?

J.T. Well, it seems to bear out what has just been remarked, that it is available centrally. In the midst of its street would be where activity was. The tree of life is available to all in the heavenly city, where all is in accord with itself. It is there dominantly and profusely.

A.R. Is there not something significant in the fact that this is the reward for the overcomer in Ephesus? The Lord says to the assembly there, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen". In spite of the departure the overcomer can be maintained in his heavenly calling.

J.T. Yes. In declining conditions we have this available to us, corresponding with other things that are available in these last days, the greatest thing being the service of God.

A.R. So that being disassociated from what is the way of departure, the overcomer can carry on, can he not?

J.T. Yes. In Thyatira there is a change in the position of the overcomer; in the address to that

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assembly he is mentioned before the words, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", whereas in our verse those words are placed before the reference to the overcomer. The obvious meaning of this is that in the earlier assemblies the decline was not so extended as it became in Thyatira and those that followed. Things became worse in Thyatira and onwards, but the decline began in Ephesus. The suggestion is, however, that in the first three assemblies there was more readiness to hear the Spirit than there was in the later ones. It is clear also that the best things were available to the overcomer in Ephesus.

A.A.T. This was not held out to the assembly?

J.T. No; there is nothing promised, in this book, to the assembly viewed as having failed as responsible on the earth. What is presented in Revelation, as blessed and abiding, is the assembly from the standpoint of purpose; it comes down from God out of heaven. The public responsible body is spued out of the Lord's mouth. But the assembly as come down from God out of heaven is what comes in at the end; things are all secured to the overcomer.

A.B. Is there something in the fact that each of the addresses is given to the angel of the assembly?

J.T. Yes; the responsible element, representative of the assembly in each place mentioned, is addressed. "The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies", chapter 1: 20. The angels would be representation, as in Matthew 18:10. The word has also the sense of messengers. Although the assembly had failed, it still was responsible; but in Thyatira and afterwards, it is a remnant: "to you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira". A remnant is formally addressed there.

A.R. Would paradise anticipate manhood? "I know a man in Christ" (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul says when speaking about being in paradise.

J.T. Just so. That testimony was brought into

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the assembly at Corinth. He does not tell us what he heard. The thief also went there, so that the testimony of paradise was already in the assembly. The allusion to it is thus intelligible; it is the paradise of God. It is not something that God provides to meet conditions brought in by sin, but what He had in His mind before sin came in; so that what we are coming into eternally according to purpose is not an afterthought. It is not something brought in to meet conditions here, but to answer to the purpose of God -- the purpose of His love. It is a question of His love; what His love will do for us. In the epistle to the Ephesians we read, "because of his great love wherewith he loved us (we too being dead in offences), has quickened us with the Christ (ye are saved by grace), and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies", chapter 2: 4 - 6. All that is a question of the working out of His own love, and I think we have to take the tree of life in that connection; in its own environment. As in Eden it was barred to man; but the great thought remains -- now found in another condition altogether. It is above; Paul was caught up there.

H.B. "To him that overcomes" would link with John 14:23? "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him".

J.T. "We will come to him and make our abode with him" is a provisional position here, based on our love for Christ and keeping His commandments. But the paradise of God is primary. It is included in His thoughts and purposes that were interfered with by the incoming of sin, but redemption having taken place, it comes to light again. It is not a new thing brought in to meet sinful conditions. Those conditions are dealt with otherwise, so that paradise should again become available to man. Hence the Lord speaks of it to the thief as available to him.

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A.N.W. Would you go so far as to say that the paradise of God would be prior to Genesis 2?

J.T. Genesis 2 brings out what He had in His mind, and sin interrupted. And hence the long years of conflict; and that completed, there is a recurrence of the primary thought.

J.S. Is that consequent upon redemption accomplished?

J.T. It is not presented exactly as the fruit of redemption; it was there, and redemption became a necessity because of the interruption that came in by the serpent. Eternal life stands in that connection; eternal life is over against what came in; that is death.

J.S. The primary thought is recovered.

J.T. It never was lost. Man was driven out of it; and the cherubim were set at the garden to guard the way to the tree of life. It appears in heaven.

A.A.T. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and also to paradise. Is there a distinction?

J.T. There are two thoughts in 2 Corinthians 12; the first is "to (as far as) the third heaven". That is a question of altitude. The other is "into" -- not the third heaven, but paradise. I suppose God intended that Paul should have that experience to bring into the assembly economy.

A.R. Was the tree of life in Genesis linked up with time and the earth; and is the tree of life referred to in Revelation 2, linked with a condition prior to time?

J.T. That is what I was saying. It is Ephesian truth, being spoken of to an overcomer at Ephesus. Thus it would be intelligible to him. The epistle to Ephesus does not exactly meet conditions resulting from sin; it is a question of the purpose of God. It is said to that assembly that God has "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ", Ephesians 1:3. That word 'every' is most comprehensive. It is not simply blessings coincidental to

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the meeting of the question of sin, but whatever God had in His mind. It is a question of His great love, and not simply that it is attested by the gift of Christ, but by His purpose as to us being accomplished. His great love is that He has quickened us with Christ and has raised us up together and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. In the beginning of the epistle the apostle says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; according as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love; having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us into favour in the Beloved", Ephesians 1:3 - 6. There is nothing there about redemption. The primary thoughts of God are in mind. They are always in mind, but sin interrupted them. Of course, this was foreknown, and hence redemption must come in; and so we have immediately, "in whom we have redemption" (verse 7). And so the paradise of God is placed on an infinitely higher level in Revelation than it is in Genesis. But Revelation 2:7 clearly alludes to Genesis 2 and hence we have the link with the purpose of God before sin came in with the accomplishment of that purpose in the eternity to come.

A.N.W. What do you understand to be involved in the possibility of man stretching out his hand and taking of the tree of life?

J.T. It is God's way of showing what a catastrophe it would be. God effectively prevented it. His great blessings were not for man in his sinful condition. What an awful situation would ensue if sinful man were to live for ever as he was! And the suggestion is that it would be the result of the tree of life left

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unprotected. But it was not left exposed to the action of man's hand. It is as if God would show that a crisis may occur in His affairs and how effectively He can meet it. The wording in Genesis 3:22 - 24 indicates feeling in God Himself.

L.H. Would the tree of life involve the new order of man in Christ?

J.T. It would; that is, as seen in 2 Corinthians 5:17, 18: "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new". But life as presented in Romans and developed generally in Scripture is to meet conditions effected in this world by sin. Of course, viewed thus it is positive blessing, promised by God and available to man through redemption. It involves the victory of God in a scene of death. In view of darkness and death, life is introduced in John's gospel as in Christ as "the light of men", chapter 1: 4. It was active in overcoming death, and in Him, redemption having taken place, it became a fixed order of things to be laid hold of and enjoyed by the saints, through faith, in the power of the Spirit. In this sense the believer has it even as in his condition in the wilderness. This would merge or link with the tree of life. But the tree of life is presented as special and always in its own environment -- in the paradise of God or in the heavenly city. The paradise of God implies more than the tree of life, but it is replete with life. The tree of life, although in the city, is seen as affecting the millennial earth, but only through its leaves. The fruit is for the heavenly saints of the city.

W.W.M. In Ephesians the saints are said to be "holy and blameless before him in love", and in Corinthians we read of certain things "which God has prepared for them that love him", 1 Corinthians 2:9. Would these facts enter into the thought of the paradise of God and the tree of life?

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J.T. Yes. The immense importance of love is stressed; in the passages you quote, love in the saints -- of course, in answer to God's love. Even before sin entered there was no one before Him in love in the garden of Eden. And after sin entered, no one was admitted. The cherubim kept the way of the tree of life until Christ died, rose and ascended to heaven. Even while He was here, no one was admitted; it was life in testimony -- not the idea of the paradise of God; the paradise of God implies that life is there. It is replete with life, but there are other features of Christ besides life.

A.A.T. When Paul was in paradise he heard unspeakable things. Is that a hint as to what is in paradise?

J.T. "I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows;) that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter", 2 Corinthians 12:3, 4. There is allusion to what is beyond anything known hitherto by men. The apostle speaks of "the exceeding greatness of the revelations". They would evidently have exceeded what was given him for practical ministry. They were intended to impress him so as to affect him in his service. He kept what he heard fourteen years, but was he not impressed? Was there not something about him exceeding any other man on earth? He was, so to speak, a paradise man -- one who had access there.

Ques. Do you connect that with Peter's ecstasy; Acts 10?

J.T. Well, it is another matter. Peter went up so pray and became in an ecstasy. There is no suggestion of an ascent; it is a state. The vessel descended to him. But Paul says expressly that he was caught up into paradise.

A.B. He says in that chapter, "Of such a one I will boast, but of myself I will not boast". Is there

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something in the fact that in the word to Ephesus, the Lord says, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen"?

J.T. That is an allusion to moral descent. It is said to the Ephesians that God "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". That is the general position of the assembly as viewed in the epistle to the Ephesians.

A.B.P. Will you explain what is the process by which life is produced and made available as fruit?

J.T. I think that is the tree accommodating itself to conditions here. The healing of the nations is only a provisional thought. The monthly yield of the tree clearly relates to time. It shows divine adaptability to conditions. But what do you say yourself?

A.B.P. The production of fruit must have a bearing upon the creature; life being brought into such a form, or character, that it is available to the creature. Life certainly existed before creation, but probably in a character which could hardly be described as a tree of life.

J.T. The idea of the tree is clearly to make things available to us and make things intelligible. There is no indication that the fruit is available to any outside the city; the leaves only are used outside. Therefore the bearing is millennial. But chapter 2 is the full thought of the tree; "the tree of life which is in the paradise of God". It is not only the tree of life, but where it is -- its own proper environment. So that even the twelve fruits seem to be all for the inhabitants of the city, but in relation to the millennium, because in Revelation the city is seen in that relation. It has come down to influence things here below. No doubt we shall need this kind of fruit to maintain heavenly distinction, very much corresponding to the old corn of the land. It is indigenous to the land, remarkably

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introduced in Joshua as the people entered Canaan. It is all to bring out the greatness of the heavenly. And whilst the tree of life stands related to the earth in the millennial day, generally it denotes eternal conditions.

A.B.P. In life, there must be that which is beyond what we can comprehend, in that God lived before He moved in relation to creation.

J.T. Yes. In John's gospel life is presented in Christ in relation to men. According to the original wording the light of it is for them only. The testimony of life as over against darkness is stated. The tree of life is presented in Scripture as existing before darkness entered. Life had its origin in God. This is witnessed in Genesis 1 where it is referred to in its forms known on earth. The gospel, as already said, speaks of it as in Christ, but only in relation to men. Thus it is brought within man's range of understanding. Still, its source is in God and hence it is infinite in its bearing. But we cannot conclude from this fact that paradise is the place of the existence and enjoyment of divine Persons, for God dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen nor is able to see. Paradise, in which the tree of life is seen, clearly has man in view. God has His part in it, but in relation to man. It seems the tree of life should not be detached from it. We should, I think, always regard the tree as "the tree of life which is in the paradise of God". Its fruit is the best available to the overcomer in Ephesus. The apostasy had not fully developed; the public body was still owned of God, but in decline, and hence the need of overcoming. The overcomer would not be deprived of the very best things the assembly had from Paul's ministry. I think that is what was meant.

A.R. So that as touching eternal conditions, appropriation of such food is the great thought; you are sustained in the sphere of it.

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J.T. Yes. It is to be eaten -- if the tree is valued it will be appropriated. The word 'eat' implies appropriation. Our great weakness generally arises from non-appropriation of food presented to us. We take things in intellectually, but we do not assimilate them. One of the most important sides of the truth is eating, as taught in John 6. The best things of God are opened up to us and we must make them our own, causing them to enter into our constitutions so as to give character to us.

F.N.W. Why is the tree of life introduced in addition to our having the Holy Spirit?

J.T. It is to bring out what had been available in Ephesus, and that in spite of the decline that had set in this was still there for the overcomer -- the very best things God has for us. Paul had announced to them "all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27.

A.N.W. Do you identify the tree of life with Christ personally exclusively, or is there any way in which the assembly shares?

J.T. It is a figure, but clearly alluding to Christ as the source of life, making it available to man. Failure in the general position does not prevent its availability to the overcomer. In contrast Adam's sin excluded him from the tree of life in Eden. Revelation 2:7 is a direct allusion to Genesis 3. The assembly is viewed as the heavenly city; that is where the tree of life is. That is to say, it is life in its own proper environment. Life in Christ come down here in testimony is another matter; it is outside of its own environment. It is here in testimony and we are made to partake of it in testimony, but what the Lord has in mind for the overcomer in Ephesus is that he is to eat of the tree of life in its own environment; that is, the paradise of God. As there, it answers to divine purpose.

L.H. With regard to paradise in the promise made by the Lord to the malefactor in answer to his request

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to have part in the kingdom: would the malefactor's thoughts be on an entirely lower level? The Lord introduces what was according to the purpose of God.

J.T. It was greater than the kingdom, although the Lord did not say the "paradise of God" -- just "paradise".

L.H. It is "with me" -- the tree of life would be in that expression, would it not?

J.T. Yes; only it would be a provisional matter because the Lord there alludes to His disembodied condition, which also has to be taken account of.

Rem. The garden of Eden would be provisional, too; the tree of life was in the midst of the garden, but in Revelation 22 it is in the city. It is a permanent thought.

J.T. It is in the city, but in availability; that is, "in the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side". It is prevalent. It is in a millennial setting only in its own environment.

H.B. Do you think the eating in chapter 2 is a higher thought than having 'a right' to the tree in Revelation 22?

J.T. Yes; having a right to it is acquired through washing one's robes, whereas to eat of the tree of life is a reward given by the Lord to an overcomer. The receiver, being an Ephesian, would appreciate such a favour.

J.S. Does that correspond with John 6?

J.T. John 6 treats of what has come down here; the Son of man come down from heaven to give life to the world. That is all in view of testimony. The thought before us is the tree of life in the paradise of God, given to an overcomer in the conditions mentioned.

J.S. Then would Paul be especially marked as a heavenly man on earth after coming back from paradise?

J.T. Undoubtedly that was what was intended --

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that he should be reflecting what he was presenting in ministry.

C.H.H. The unique experience of the apostle would not be necessary in order for us to avail ourselves of the tree.

J.T. No. It was special to him because he was a great minister, but he was not only a great minister, but a great man -- a great person. He was made greater than he ever was before, in a practical way, after he went to paradise, so that down here amongst the saints he was different. For fourteen years the brethren got the benefit of that.

A.B.P. Would what he says to the elders from Ephesus, in Acts 20, be the practical expression amongst them of what he had partaken of in paradise?

J.T. I would think so. In affording those who serve Him special advantages, the Lord has in mind that the saints should gain. The five hundred, for instance, to whom the Lord appeared, according to 1 Corinthians 15, would be marked persons. Some of them had fallen asleep when the epistle was written, but others had not. So long as they were here there was a special family testimony in them because they were appeared to as brethren. They would suggest the heavenly calling. Christ is "firstborn among many brethren", Romans 8:29. Cephas is not mentioned as representing that, nor James, nor the twelve, nor even Paul; all those were related to the testimony here. But the brethren will go on into the sphere of the purpose of God. They all are called "according to purpose", to be conformed to the image of God's Son.

A.B. Is that why he says, "I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27?

J.T. Yes; and that would imply that he was representative of it; he would be expressive of it in

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some way. He was walking "worthy of the calling", Ephesians 4:1.

A.B.P. And their sorrow that they would see his face no more would be in keeping with what you were saying?

J.T. Yes; what a face it must have been!

A.P.T. "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:17. Does that synchronise with paradise?

J.T. Pretty much; but creation, viewed generally, is not as great as paradise. Paradise seems to be reserved as a thought expressing God's best.

A.R. Had we lived in early days, we would have been impressed with the idea of apostleship -- the dignity and ability to do things through conferred divine authority; but having gotten near to the apostles we would discover that there was a personality in them distinct from and even greater than apostleship. It was the result of divine formation in connection with experience, and that is what we ought to seek after.

J.T. That is what this food would nourish -- the fruit of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.

A.N.W. Is this the highest of any of the promises to overcomers in the seven assemblies? It is the solitary promise to the overcomer in Ephesus.

J.T. That to Smyrna is, as faithful unto death, "I will give to thee the crown of life"; and the word to the overcomer in that assembly is, "He ... shall in no wise be injured of the second death"; his circumstances are in relation to death. To the overcomer in Pergamos the Lord gives "of the hidden manna". That is Christ as once here; also "a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he that receives it". Thyatira: "And he that overcomes ... to him will I give authority over the nations". Sardis: "He that overcomes, he shall be clothed in white garments, and

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I will not blot his name out of the book of life". Philadelphia: "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". This is to be compared especially with the promise to Ephesus, but it stands more in relation to the service of God; the temple of God and the city of God. Finally, Laodicea: "He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne". If we compare, I would say that the promise to the overcomer in the assembly in Philadelphia is the greatest of all. What would be given to the overcomer in Ephesus is great and precious, but it is for himself, for his eternal enjoyment, whereas the overcomer in Philadelphia is completely identified with the temple of Christ's God, with the name of Christ's God, with the name of the city of Christ's God and with Christ's new name. All this is involved in the heavenly order of things entering into the service of God down here in which the overcoming saints in Philadelphia had faithful part -- feebly indeed and as despised, but the Lord will honour them as having maintained the service of His God in the time of His rejection.

Now, in reading in chapter 4 the thought was to consider the living creatures -- how life is seen in them protecting, as it were, God and His interests. They are in the midst of the throne and around the throne. "And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind; and the first living creature like a lion, and the second living creature like a calf, and the third living creature having the face as of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle. And the

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four living creatures, each one of them having respectively six wings; round and within they are full of eyes; and they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come. And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanksgiving to him that sits upon the throne, who lives to the ages of ages, the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages; and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created" (verses 6 - 11). I thought this would be useful to have before us for the idea of living creatures would include ourselves; that is, the saints of God viewed as living, but living in relation to God; not simply for their own enjoyment, but as useful and protective of God, sympathetic with Him in all that He is doing, and making way by intelligent energy for the greater thought of eldership. We have been alluding to it in our prayer: those advanced in years amongst us. The living creatures would represent youthful energy. That is, they are used in the part of the work that may be regarded as subordinate.

W.R. I suppose we see that in the assembly of the Thessalonians. Paul addresses them as "the assembly of the Thessalonians in God the Father".

J.T. Yes; they were in the Father's affections peculiarly. They were youthful, and in the energy of life, working in faith and labouring in love. They were not self-confident, ready to imitate those who were walking in the ways of God. They became imitators of the assemblies of God in Judea, and they too, became examples. They "became models to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia". So that there was in them a leading on to something

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greater, and that is what I thought we might see. It is not gift, so much, but living persons under the head of four.

A.R. Would verses 9 and 10 suggest that the service of the elders and living creatures would blend? "And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanksgiving to him that sits upon the throne, who lives to the ages of ages, the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages". Do you think that this might supplement what we have been saying about the heavenly side -- that in the activity of life the youth and the elder are merging in their service?

J.T. Yes, that runs through the whole book to chapter 19. It shows that God intends that living energy and experience are to mark His service.

J.T.Jr. Do you see that in Moses and Joshua? Moses the experienced and aged, and Joshua representing living energy serving in a subordinate sense? It is well to remember, however, that on one important occasion, Joshua's hearing was defective; Exodus 32:17, 18.

J.T. Yes; all this is to work out; we have a sort of preliminary to the things that were to be, that John would write about: the things that come after the assemblies. While this chapter is part of the third section of the book John was to write, the principle in it that we are speaking of enters into the present period. The saints of this dispensation, too, are characterised by eldership and youthfulness. The whole realm of creation is in view in the living creatures, indicated in the symbols employed. That is, the first living creature is like a lion, and the second like a calf, the third has the face as of a man, and the fourth is like a flying eagle. God intends us, as sympathetic with Him in our service, to be conversant with universal conditions -- universal features of

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the testimony -- because the testimony is marked off as meeting conditions and God contemplates that these are met in living energy. The apostles at the outset were young, also even the Lord Himself and John the baptist. Paul, too, was young. Later, Paul says, "Paul the aged", and John addressed the saints as "the elder". These facts we are to understand as to ourselves; and as indicated in these living creatures, we are to have a universal outlook. And it is not simply that we have it in an objective way, but we labour to meet the conditions however far they are from us; we must have the whole position in our minds.

J.S. Do you think that is why strength, as in the lion, is brought in first?

J.T. No doubt; the Scriptures would explain to us what each creature means, but one thing is, I am sure, certain, that if we are patterned after these living creatures we would be concerned about the testimony universally, and how it works out in relation to conditions.

H.B. The flying eagle here represents rapidity?

J.T. It is life active in that way. Elsewhere we are told that eagles mount up.

J.A.P. Would the eyes within help to keep us in self-judgment so that life is maintained?

J.T. Well, yes; the living creatures are specially remarkable, as to their eyes. First, it is said they are "full of eyes before and behind", and verse 8 says, "... round and within they are full of eyes". In all these we have a remarkable symbol of inward and universal penetrative discernment. "And they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come". The living creatures thus honouring Him who sits upon the throne, "the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages,

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and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created". It is a wonderful scene. It includes the first two chapters of Genesis -- the whole creation in relation to God; all for His pleasure.

J.T.Jr. Are the crowns brought forward? They cast them before the throne. Do they allude to the experiences the elders have come through, and in which they have been victorious with regard to good and evil?

J.T. Yes. They are acquired crowns.

F.N.W. The living creatures "cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty". Would that be an appeal to young christians today, as recognising conditions in which they are, and the sense of the need, being maintained day and night? And behind that is this substantial service to God in the older brethren?

J.T. Just so; night is made a great deal of in Scripture -- "the night seasons" -- in which to pray, and the like; in which to be with God.

A.R. Perhaps the idea of the flying eagle would link on with the scripture you referred to in Isaiah 40 "they that wait upon Jehovah shall renew their strength: they shall mount up with wings as eagles" (verse 31), suggesting persons who pray in the prayer meetings.

J.T. Yes. I believe God is greatly stressing the prayer meetings, adding on Monday to what we have on the Lord's days.

A.B.P. Does this fit in with assembly service that the energy and freshness of affection of the younger brothers might find normal outlet in the earlier part of the meeting, and the older and more experienced brothers might reach a higher point than others could at the end of the meeting?

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J.T. Well, I never like to see a meeting taking on the character of a choir, where each one takes a set part. Intelligent liberty should mark us; so that while regard for experience and spirituality should have its place, a young brother should be free to take part in the service in any phase of it as he has liberty in his soul as before God.

A.B.P. There sometimes seems to be the feeling on the part of the younger brothers that it is polite to wait upon their elders to take part first, but that kind of thing should not govern us in assembly service.

J.T. The young ones should be, I believe, a little freer than they are generally, and yet not too active, because, after all, you need the lead as well as the end to be reached.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (7)

Genesis 3:20 - 24; Genesis 4:26; Genesis 5:21 - 24

J.T. It is thought that the tree of life deserves further consideration in relation to our subject. We looked at it in Revelation at the last reading, the allusion there (chapter 2: 7), is clearly to Genesis 2. It was in the midst of the paradise of God, and it was spoken of as thus having a dominant position. Revelation 22 speaks of a river "going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life" (verses 1, 2), showing that the full thought that God had in mind in Genesis is there. The leaves of the tree bear toward the millennium, and even the fruits, being twelve, allude to the administration of it in the millennial day.

There are other references in Revelation, such as fountains of water, that would link on with our subject. We should keep clear in our minds that whilst the tree of life in Revelation 22 bears on time, yet it properly belongs to the purpose of God, what God had in mind before sin came in. The actual fruits of the tree apparently are restricted to the inhabitants of the city, and the city having come down from God out of heaven, the links are quite clear as showing that the tree of life was a primary thought, not a thought introduced to meet a condition arising, but a primary one. Therefore we shall need to enquire why it is restricted in Genesis 3. Man is excluded from it. The Lord will help us, I believe, to see how life comes in, meeting conditions here, as it were, independently of the tree of life, because Adam having had a judicial sentence pronounced on him does not speak of death but rather of life; that is, he calls his wife by name, Life, as if he had some

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inkling from God that although he is debarred from the tree at the moment, there is a way to life nevertheless, but it is through death. So that immediately after he speaks of life we have the record that Jehovah clothes him and his wife with skins. There is no allusion to the garden there; it is a question of death coming in in view of life.

Then it is thought that we may also see life in Seth in calling his son Enosh, which means weak or mortal. "Then people began to call on the name of Jehovah" (Genesis 4:26), involving that if Enosh is a dying person and if there is to be anything eternal, it must be through death and God must raise the dead; at least, that is how we should regard it now. And there is confirmation in the New Testament in addition to Genesis 5, that Enosh "should not see death"; that is, that death is overcome in Enoch by life through faith. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death", Hebrews 11:5. That statement is not here but in the New Testament; it involves redemption. Enoch represents the thought of life, not only in its inward activity but as regards his body. The whole man went up, God taking him "And Enoch walked with God after he had begotten Methushelah three hundred years", Genesis 5:22. That would be on moral lines in view of having a family. Then we have in verse 24, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him"; that is, God was evidently pleased with his walk. "He has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5. So that the walk must have constituted him as morally fit for translation.

J.A.P. In connection with the first scripture read in Genesis 3:20 - 24, which states that Adam could not partake of the tree of life, what change came in between the time which that scripture refers to and the time contemplated in Revelation 2:7, where the overcomer is allowed to eat of the tree of life?

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J.T. Redemption had taken place. The epistle to the Romans develops the gospel, showing how the judgment of God on man is met, and eternal life in Christ made available to man. The truth ministered in the epistle to the Ephesians goes beyond Romans, involving "the whole counsel of God". The tree of life in the paradise of God is included in this; that is, as we have already noted, life answering to the purpose of God. Hence the appropriateness of the promise to the overcomer at Ephesus.

E.McK. What is involved in the thought of "all living", Genesis 3:20. Is that the new order of man?

J.T. The Spirit of God would have that in mind. Statements in Genesis often have a root character, their import increasing as carried forward by the Spirit. Genesis 3:20, to which you refer, may be regarded in this way. Adam undoubtedly alluded to the woman's seed as seen in verse 15. Much is made of motherhood in the family of faith in Genesis, and it is enlarged upon in later scriptures. Hannah and Mary are outstanding examples of motherhood in the true sense. Israel and the assembly are viewed in Scripture as mothers, Revelation 12:1, 2; Galatians 4:26. As to the "living", Hezekiah says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day" (Isaiah 38:19); and the Psalms allude to life in a spiritual sense. Evidently God intended Genesis 3:20 as basic instruction as to life over against the sentence of death pronounced on man. "For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive", 1 Corinthians 15:22.

R.W.S. Is the way to the knowledge of this on moral lines? I refer to man calling his wife's name "Eve" because she is the mother of all living; and Jehovah Elohim saying, "Behold, Man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (verse 22). Does this then involve the whole moral question being dealt with before any knowledge of purpose can be enjoyed?

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J.T. That is what I thought we might see; that Romans shows life being reached through death; so that I would take verses 20 and 21 as over against the remaining part of the chapter. Thus Adam in calling his wife's name Eve because she is the mother of all living must be taken as prophetic. Whether the "because" was used by Adam or whether the Spirit of God added it as enlarging on the truth involved, we have to regard it as a sequence. The New Translation has "is the mother of all living". She was nobody's mother yet, so that it is prophetic. The facts recorded show that Jehovah Elohim regarded Adam as having light. God had pronounced sentence on him, but Adam did not allude to the sentence; he alluded to his wife and called her Eve, which means life. God must have anticipated his faith, because He had given him some basis for his naming his wife Eve in the fact that He had said that her seed would bruise the serpent's head. That would have been in Adam's mind. And then verse 21 would mean that God took account of what was in Adam. What would he be worth if there was not light in his soul? If he were just a bit of clay going back to his mother earth, of what value would he be to God or even to himself? But then we have to clothe these words with New Testament light. There was something in Adam. He does not head the list of faith in the New Testament, but surely Jehovah would take account of the name he gave his wife, when He had said that "in dying thou shalt die" (marginal reading, chapter 2: 17). The sentence was pronounced. How did Adam carry definitely in his mind the thought of life? God surely would then take more account of what we are saying now than we do. And then He clothed him with skins, as much as to say, this is the principle. It is very small, and somewhat vague, but this is the principle on which the tree of life will ultimately come into use again. In the meantime,

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Jehovah regards Adam as outwardly under death; just as a natural man, and as he can use his hand, he might use it to partake of the tree of life: "Lest he stretch out his hand", which is often the case with men now. So God says, "Lest he stretch out his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ... !" You will notice there is an exclamation point, as if God would say, What an awful thing that would be; as if much more could be said -- that men should appropriate what belongs to God in a natural way adding to themselves through it. So then it is said, "Therefore Jehovah Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life" (verse 24). We have to leave this for a later time, but in the meantime the principle of life as overcoming death has come into evidence.

A.N.W. In saying the tree of life is a primary thought, are you differentiating between its fruit and its leaves, as the leaves adapt themselves to the wounds of the nations?

J.T. Yes. There is no evidence that the fruits are brought outside the city. Revelation 22:14 shows that one who washes his robes has a right to go in and partake of the tree of life. The twelve manner of fruits would mean that the heavenly city is viewed as in relation to time; it is an administrative time and its own life is mentioned as if it were in that time, men partaking of the twelve manner of fruits; because clearly those who form the heavenly city are not there idly. We are to be there administratively and need food to maintain a heavenly constitution for administration in relation to the millennial world. But in itself the city belongs to heaven and eternity.

A.R. Have you in mind that the tree of life has

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been held in reserve; that is, that the tree has been reserved in relation to purpose, whereas life as seen in Romans can be enjoyed as we are here in responsibility?

J.T. Yes; life as mentioned in relation to Eve. That would be the clue. It is an element brought in in relation to the penalty on Adam, as if God were to speak of it from another point of view. As Judge, He pronounced the sentence without any mitigation; but as God, according to what He is, He thought of His creature in relation to what he said to Eve. That is what I would take it to be. He is regarding Adam now according to what he said of Eve after the pronouncement of judgment. If Adam were rebellious and upbraiding God for such a severe sentence, it would be different. But he is not even speaking of it; he is speaking of his wife and that she is the mother of all living. God valued that; faith was there and in principle that opened up the great matter of redemption.

A.MacN. It does seem remarkable that Adam should say this; that is, he said it of himself. Faith was there and God always addresses Himself to that, would you say?

J.T. Yes. The life he had was forfeited, as expressed in the divine pronouncement. There is no hope at all in God's words expressing the judgment; but the fact that Adam did not rest on those words or upbraid his wife for having misled him, but spoke of her as the mother of all living, shows that light came into his soul. So that life now has to be taken account of in another way; that is, as coming in through death. It would come in through the seed of the woman already spoken of.

A.B.P. Is the thought of travail significant; that life now must be reached through that severity of exercise?

J.T. Yes; no doubt that enters into it. Why

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Adam should speak about his wife in relation to life immediately after the terrible sentence is what we should especially think of. It indicated the state of Adam's soul; that there was reaction to light. And that is a principle of general importance -- that whether, as something is suggested to us in the way of light, there is any reaction to it; and I think verse 20 is reaction to light that God furnished.

C.N. Do you think there is any link between the clothing in this chapter and the eating of the flesh of animals by Noah in chapter 9?

J.T. Well, I suppose that would be an expansion. What we had here yesterday should be of general help; that Genesis is the seed plot. The seed is usually small, but its fruit is usually large; meaning that there is increase as you go on, and thus when we come to Genesis 9, we find animal food given to man. There is no suggestion of it in the skins, but the skins implied that death had taken place. It may be said, however, that in Abel's offering there was the idea of food. God introduces in Noah a further thought. Much is made of life, even of the animals, in Genesis 9. God is claiming that these creatures, although they may seem just to go down into the earth, yet their blood which is their life is His.

C.N. I was thinking of what you said -- that although the tree of life is barred, yet the thought of life through death is maintained in the skins. Is the expansion, as you say, in the eating of the flesh?

J.T. Yes. The tree of life was not debarred from Adam, according to chapter 2; but now it is, and I suppose it is kept for "its own time"; and I believe Ephesians is the time when the full thought comes out as to the counsel of God. It is after this counsel is stated that we have redemption mentioned: "in whom we have redemption through his blood", Ephesians 1:7.

F.S.C. The tree of life is mentioned a number of

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times in Proverbs. Is it a different thought there?

J.T. It is just a tree of life; a figure. No doubt the words allude to Genesis, but it is the tree of life here. There is only one. It has the article always.

G.V.D. Would it be right to connect the clothing with Romans: "Righteousness of God is revealed therein, on the principle of faith, to faith: according as it is written, But the just shall live by faith", Romans 1:17?

J.T. Yes. It is a revelation. But the position of the tree of life should be distinguished from this. It appeared before sin came in, and it is seen in Revelation 22 as in the city, which certainly must be regarded as outside of the scene and area of sin. It is a sinless state of things, because it comes down from God out of heaven, as if it were indigenous there. The fruits of the tree seem clearly to be for the inhabitants of the city. The leaves are carried out. This implies that grace is active in the heavenly city in view of the effects of sin still existing.

J.S. Would the greatness of God's work be seen in Adam's being able to call Eve the mother of all living?

J.T. Yes; we bring Romans into this verse just to make it clear. Then as regards food in that connection, it is introduced in 1 Corinthians, in the Lord's supper. And so also John 6. The bread there is for the life of the world, and this extends to millennial times, so that the nations will have food; but John 6 is distinct from the tree of life.

A.A.T. This tree produces a different kind of fruit each month. What does that suggest?

J.T. It is in relation to the millennial service, in which we all, as of the heavenly city, shall be engaged. Of Adam it is said, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread", Genesis 3:19. That will not be in the millennium. The millennial saints will have their own food. We will have our heavenly food, only I

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think the reference to time, that is, the months of the year, would mean that the heavenly saints are for the moment occupied with the renewed earth in an administrative way and this brings them into time. I do not think the twelve monthly fruits will go into eternity. The months will stop: there is no time there.

A.B.P. Does it contemplate that there will be freshness and variety in the expression of life in this administration?

J.T. I would think that. We are supported in our heavenly service even as we are now, because we eat the heavenly food now; the old corn of the land is heavenly food. It belongs to heaven.

J.T.Jr. Is there a progression in the scriptures you have suggested; that is, first in Adam; then in Seth; then in Enosh? Is there a point reached in Enoch that we should come to?

J.T. That is what I thought. Enoch is said to be the seventh from Adam. That would be through Seth; not through Cain. So Enoch would probably take account of what Jehovah did for Adam, and learn from it; that is, he would be the seventh lineally, but also, as we may say, educationally; that is, through discipline, as a learner. He would look back on the past and take account of what happened and what God did with others. That is how we all should learn; so that this is the climax in the antediluvian world from the heavenly side, and Noah is the continuance of things. I thought we might just see what the testimony as to life was in the antediluvian world, for that is the period we are dealing with. It is much longer, perhaps, than most of us realise. It would be nearly as long as our own dispensation, and yet it is recorded in about six chapters; but there is a testimony of life in it. "The world that then was ... perished", but that world had testimony of life rendered to it.

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A.N.W. Is the instruction in connection with Seth in the fact that he calls his son Enosh?

J.T. Yes. He is the one man that clearly saw what the sentence was. He is taking account of the sentence on Adam, his father, and he is calling his son by a name that indicates that he understands and is accepting it, and thus light is shining, because "people began to call on the name of Jehovah", at that point.

F.N.W. There are two trees in chapter 3. Does the tree of life stand as a secret in the believer's soul? Satan seems to be acquainted with the first tree, but the other, being part of God's purpose, Satan is unfamiliar with it. Satan had attacked the churches in Revelation as he had attacked Adam in relation to the forbidden tree, but the tree of life seems to be something he is not in the secret of.

J.T. Just so. As we have said, "the whole counsel of God" is made known in the ministry to the saints at Ephesus.

R.W.S. It would appear that these men in the antediluvian world who had light were on the alert to discover some little intimation from God about life.

J.T. Quite so. We can understand how Enoch in his walk with God would enquire from Him and be taught by Him. I think that is indicated in Seth, and then fully seen in Enoch, because he is spoken of as the seventh from Adam. Only Jude mentions that, and evidently he implies that Enoch was a learner. He is also the only one that tells us that Enoch was a prophet. He would be qualified for prophetic service as taught of God, involving instruction gained by observation of others who had experience with God before him, and from contemporary history, too; corruption in his own times would be known to him and would enter into his prophetic announcement of evil in the last days.

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He speaks also of the Lord coming with the holy myriads to execute judgment against them.

C.N. Would he also illustrate, as the seventh, the fulness or completion of life in that he was not, for God took him?

J.T. Yes. Enoch is a witness to eternal life entered into on moral lines, not as partaking of the tree of life. By the power of God, death was overcome in him. He walked with God, we may say, in connection with his family; that is, as Methushelah was born. No doubt he had observed that other earlier families were not doing well. He would know something about Cain's family and the world around him, and as his son was born he walked with God. The evidence is clear that his walk had a moral bearing; that he was thinking of his family; other children were born to him. So that in his walk with God there was testimony that he pleased God. Then a second time we have it stated that he walked with God; "and he was not, for God took him" (verse 24). Hebrews 11 says, "... and was not found, because God had translated him" (verse 5). The Spirit of God brings that in. It suggests that his absence would be noticed. Where is Enoch? That will happen in our own case presently. But then there is another thing added as we already remarked, that he should not see death, which shows there is some way other than the tree of getting back to the idea of life. Enoch did not come under Adam's penalty. This implies "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". That was foreshadowed in the skins of the animals by which Adam and Eve were clothed.

J.T.Jr. So that the question of good and evil was also paramount at that time. Does it not run down to our own times, and work out in Romans?

J.T. It must have been worked out in measure in Enoch's case, because he walked with God; and Romans teaches us to walk in newness of life. In

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Leviticus those animals that divide the hoof typify the discrimination between good and evil in believers. I mean to say these germs of light and truth in the antediluvian world become larger and larger as God proceeds with His testimony, and when we come to Leviticus, we have the creatures that divide the hoof. Adam, I think, would not name them because of the divided hoof, because the idea of walk was not so much there, but the idea of walk is stressed in Enoch. God would notice that he divided the hoof; that is, he discriminated between good and evil in his walk; he kept in the clean paths.

R.W.S. There was the way to the tree of life that was guarded by the Cherubim and the flame of the flashing sword. Would you suggest that there was a way back to the tree of life in the suggestion of the way back in the antediluvian world?

J.T. The teaching as to life in these chapters, as we have seen, relates to the gospel. What intervenes between the barring of the tree of life to man and his permission to partake of it, is how God met sin, bringing in life through death. "It became him", Hebrews 2:10. That is the great lesson for us; the moral side. The Cherubim kept the way until Christ became Man; and even when He was here, before He died, the way was not made. He had to lay down His life. The way back was through death. But whether He was the tree of life as here below, or whether it is Christ as indigenous to heaven and known there in its own environment, is a question to think over.

A.P.T. John the baptist had great light in speaking of the Lord Jesus as the Lamb of God; the sacrificial side as taking away the sin of the world; and then in the next paragraph he goes further in the apprehension of the Person. I was wondering whether this linked with Genesis and Leviticus as to the walk of certain creatures.

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J.T. Yes. How far he did go in his remarks! John said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), also that He is the Son of God (verse 34). The Son of God is a title that largely alludes to Christ's undertakings; what He does. So John witnesses to that: "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God" (verse 34). He baptised with the Holy Spirit. The Lord in chapter 3 says, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal" (verse 14). The allusion there is not to the tree of life, but life. It is rather meeting sin here. But then the passage goes on to say, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal" (verse 16). That is God's gift. God's love is expressed in that. But then the Lord said earlier, "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven" (verse 13). Notice "who is in heaven". Well, what is in that for us? I believe it is where we come in -- the heavenly side of the truth. All He says about eternal life takes place here on earth in meeting sin in man; but when He says, "No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven", we have something beyond the earthly dispensation altogether; He is touching eternity in heaven. His own inherent place is there. So in chapter 6, where He treats of life and Himself as coming down here so that men should have life, that is not the tree of life. He goes on to say, "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?" John 6:62. "Where he was before", points, I believe, to the assembly's place, the assembly is wrapped up in all that; so that it comes down from God out of heaven.

A.R. What you say helps us to understand the

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idea of the tree of life as compared with eternal life. It has been often said that eternal life is for man here, but, according to what you have been saying, the tree of life is up there.

J.T. It is indigenous to heaven, and only celestial beings have part in it. It is our food.

J.T.Jr. Paul also says, "But if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer", 2 Corinthians 5:16. Is that what you have in mind? The tree of life evidently alludes to Him where He is.

J.T. Yes. "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God" (verses 17, 18). That is our eternal portion.

A.P.T. So in John 3 the Lord further says, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" (verse 12). Do you think the situation in that chapter indicates that Nicodemus and those with him were not ready for this great thought of the Son of man who was in heaven?

J.T. They were not. Nicodemus did not follow the Lord in the very initial things that he should have known from the Old Testament. He remained with the Council, because heavenly things did not come into his soul. John the baptist did go on to the heavenly thought; not that he belonged to the heavenly family properly, but he grasped the thought. The Lord's word in verse 12, quoted already, is in the plural -- "ye". It refers to the ordinary Jewish state of mind.

A.B.P. Do you have the way of the tree of life in John's gospel in His words, "I am the way and the truth and the life"?

J.T. Yes. The way to it.

A.N.W. As to finding the way, have you any

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thought as to why the fat is stressed in Abel's offerings? There is no mention of the blood.

J.T. It certainly opens up quite a subject as to the offerings. Cain did not have a death-offering; he had a meat-offering. But it was useless because it was not preceded by an offering through death. Abel had such an offering without a meat-offering, and he was accepted. He evidently had a great appreciation of the fat which involves the excellence of the offering. It alludes to the fulness of excellence in Christ as offered to God.

A.N.W. I thought that it was striking that his faith should stress the fat.

J.T. It looks as if the Spirit of God puts these touches in Scripture for us as learners. Enoch learned through all these things, and we may as well learn because the intent is that we should partake of disciplinary education as Enoch did.

A.A.T. All the families of God will have life, but is there something special for christians in the way of life?

J.T. Clearly; the word to the Ephesian overcomer is suggestive: "I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God", chapter 2: 7. It is obviously special and as promised to an overcomer at Ephesus, where the whole counsel of God was made known; it points to the heavenly portion of the assembly.

E.McK. What is the thought in Luke 15 where the father speaks of the son as having come to life, and being clothed with what is brought out of the house?

J.T. Well, he is alive again. The gentile is in mind. It would mean that God had begun to work in the gentile world. "Because this thy brother was dead, and has come to life again, and was lost and has been found" (verse 32). He has come to life.

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But then there is more than that in the passage; that is, he has the best robe.

E.McK. That is what I was thinking. The best robe is brought out. You were speaking about what was indigenous to heaven.

J.T. Yes; it is the heavenly side from Luke's point of view. The elder brother was invited to come in to the house but the best robe was placed on the prodigal who is the gentile, viewed in Paul's ministry.

A.R. Then we can enjoy eternal life now in the sphere of responsibility, and eternal life will also be enjoyed in the millennium, but there is something beyond either according to what you had in mind.

J.T. I think that is plain. Let the Scriptures themselves speak. The Lord says, "These shall go away ... into eternal life", Matthew 25:46. That is the saved nations. They do not go into heaven; they go into eternal life. It is an order of things established down here. I would not separate it from what we are speaking of, because there is a link. What is going to become of all the millennial saints? They are viewed at the outset as in flesh and blood condition, but they are not going to remain thus. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom", 1 Corinthians 15:50. So that enjoying eternal life in flesh and blood condition is a peculiar victory of God. Satan might say that you cannot make an ordinary man have eternal life. But God says that He can; even a man like Adam; that is, by converting him inwardly and giving him light so that he sees the second Man. Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and he saw it and was glad. The millennial world will in principle be of the order of Christ. They go into eternal life. It does not say they go into heaven; it is what is established down here, but then what will become of them afterwards? Scripture is silent as to actual words, but inferentially they must partake of

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the heavenly in some sense; taking on spiritual bodies, no doubt in a family by themselves. They never form part of the assembly, but they serve to give God the victory as to this matter of meeting death, that He can bring in life in the kind of persons, physically, that sinned.

F.S.C. Are the leaves of the tree of life medicinal to bring this about?

J.T. I would say that. That is a good word -- medicinal, because they are for healing. It will not fail like many medicines that are now used; they shall be healed.

J.A.P. Can the tree of life be enjoyed by us individually apart from the assembly? Is the overcomer individual?

J.T. Yes. The book of Revelation contemplates declension. The assembly, seen in Ephesus, has failed and judgment is threatened. This is definitely imposed on Thyatira. Thus there is no promise made to the responsible body. The need of overcoming is contemplated as to each assembly. Overcoming is really the ground on which promises are made. So that partaking of the tree of life is open to any one that is an overcomer. It is given; you do not attain to it; the Lord gives it to the overcomer.

A.N.W. The apostle says to Timothy, "Lay hold of eternal life" -- is that another side of the matter?

J.T. It has a present application; it is an exhortation. The reference is to eternal life, not the tree of life. It has been described, "an out-of-the-world heavenly condition of relationship and being in which eternal life exists". That is the present provisional form of it. You are still in flesh and blood, hence urged to lay hold of eternal life.

J.T.Jr. Is that not suggested in Enoch's walking with God? Is that not the point, you have God and man together?

J.T. It is said by the Lord that eternal life is to

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know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He had sent; John 17:3. This, in principle, is seen in Enoch.

A.B.P. Is Enoch very much like the overcomer in the church? The whole public system is about to be spued out, so to speak, and he is preserved from even seeing death.

J.T. He is a good model. If we are to get the gain of the early men of faith, we must read about them and enquire of the Lord what is meant. The Spirit of God mentions just what we need. He could mention much more. What unwritten history Enoch must have had!

A.P.T. Does Enoch's life correspond with John in the book of Revelation? Up to the end of chapter 3, he is in Patmos and then in chapter 4 he is said to be taken up to heaven. They might ask. Where is he? Is that what is on your mind?

J.T. Quite so; but the "in the midst" chapters are to be noted -- the Lord walking in the midst of the assemblies. In chapter 4 it is what is in heaven; but it is not the tree of life exactly. It is in view of what is down here. All God's judicial dealings are contemplated in relation to the throne in heaven.

A.MacN. Perhaps there is some connection between the first psalm and what has come before us in relation to the tree of life. The one who walks perfectly there could only be the Lord Jesus; but He is like a tree planted by the brooks of water. I was wondering whether that has any connection with what is before us.

J.T. There is some connection. It has often been noticed that the first psalm is what Christ is morally; the second psalm is what He is officially; and these two psalms cover the whole five books. "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, and standeth not in the way of sinners, and sitteth not in the seat of scorners ... . And he is as a

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tree planted by the brooks of water, which giveth its fruit in its season, and whose leaf fadeth not; and all that he doeth prospereth" (verses 1 - 3). All this, whilst applicable to Christ, is not Christ as the tree of life but what He was morally down here, and even what any saint might be in measure, because that is the idea of the psalm. The tree of life is not down here. It is indigenous to heaven. The paradise of God is above. It is not down here on earth at all.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (8)

Genesis 5:28 - 32; Genesis 6:1 - 3, 9 - 14; Genesis 7:6 - 10

J.T. At our last meeting we looked at certain passages in Genesis, beginning with chapter 3 and going on to chapter 5, with the thought of considering life in the antediluvian world and it is thought now that we should look further into that section of Scripture, especially to see how the energy of life appears at the end of that dispensation. The hope is that we may see in these chapters the strenuousness of the experience of Noah and others, as the dispensation at that time was ending; the belief being that there is a correspondence in all the closings of dispensations. They are usually marked by remnants, and a remnant involves weakness; the very weakness, however, occasioning dependence on God, which He never fails to answer to. The present moment corresponds in regard of this dispensation. We have come to an extraordinary part of it -- toward the end. It is requiring great energy -- on the part of the nations and correspondingly on the part of those that are of the assembly -- to keep up with its exigencies. There is usually something that corresponds, between current history among the nations and what God is doing in the assembly.

We dwelt on chapter 5 last time in relation to Enoch, who represents the heavenly side of the truth. Energy is not stressed in him especially, but discipline; the result of discipline and education; so that he becomes fitted for translation. But Noah's position and service contemplate the need of energy. Great things outwardly are to be done; great difficulties are to be overcome. So that it is thought that thus we may see life in him and others with him, operating in a strenuous way as meeting existing conditions.

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These conditions were made plain by God to him. Noah was taken up by God as righteous and was honoured by Him; and God entered into covenant with him because He had confidence in him, and all the divine requirements were met in every instance. It is a question first of all of obedience and the strength needed for that, which God supplies.

A.B.P. Is there a link between Noah and Enoch in that both are said to have walked with God?

J.T. Yes; you might say they graduated from the same school, one leading heavenward and the other through the judgment.

C.A.M. As far as we are concerned are these two lines going on concurrently?

J.T. Yes; qualifications for translation, and then the need of meeting current conditions. These two great thoughts run together.

A.N.W. Is your thought tonight life in the energy of it?

J.T. Yes; in the energy of it at the end of a dispensation. It will be noted that Noah's father was Lemech, whose name indicates violence, corresponding with the line of Cain in which there was also a Lemech who killed a man. He was violent according to his name and practised polygamy, in connection with whom it is first mentioned. But he acknowledged his fault and spoke of vengeance both on account of Cain and on account of himself, pointing to the Jews who are to be avenged, although themselves wild and wandering. At the present time they are cruelly interfered with, but this will be avenged on their persecutors. Whereas the Lemech of the life line -- that is, the line of Seth -- whilst energetic and violent, would be so in a spiritual sense, because he had peace and rest in his mind, not disturbance. He was a son of peace, so that he calls his son's name Noah, and gives the reason: "This one shall comfort us concerning our work and concerning the toil of our hands,

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because of the ground which Jehovah has cursed", Genesis 5:29. Clearly he is spiritual, but evidently violent, if necessary, against evil, to bring about a state of rest.

A.R. Perhaps he had in mind a little of the idea of the millennium -- the thought of repose.

J.T. Yes; and "the ground"; he had the ground in his mind: "... because of the ground which Jehovah has cursed". The millennium would answer to this. It is a dispensational thought in this respect. The same thing applies now, because we are at the end of the dispensation, as Lemech was. He died before the flood came. He was intelligent, looking on to another and more glorious time when the curse would be removed, so that he names his son in view of this. The others in the line of Seth are not always mentioned in that way, as being formally named, but Noah is formally named by his father and the reason for it given, showing he had the right thought; the thoughts of God were in his mind.

J.S. Does the flood come in as a necessity?

J.T. Quite so; it purged the earth. Lemech had the ground in his mind, and God also had it in His mind, that there should be seed-time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night while the earth remained; Genesis 8:22.

F.S.C. Noah lived in two dispensations. How do you regard his life in the second dispensation?

J.T. He is the head of another world; he goes through; he is a type of Christ as the Head of another world; not the one he was primarily in. According to what God says of him he is already head morally. We get his history; his is one of the ten histories mentioned in Genesis, showing how important he is. The word 'history' here means origin; what he developed out of.

R.W.S. Does the thought of personality enter into Lemech's naming of Noah? "This one shall

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comfort us concerning our work and concerning the toil of our hands". There were so few in the presence of myriads of ungodly persons. Is it what God can do with one man?

J.T. That is a good way to put it. The demonstrative pronoun points to one that is outstanding, and he fulfils the prophetic suggestion accurately: "He shall comfort us". The "us" is the remnant. There were very few of them. The word 'few' is applied to them by Peter.

C.N. Does the name Noah show that God takes account of the exigencies which the remnant must yet pass through and provides beforehand for it?

J.T. This scripture provides for them, and they will value it as they begin to get light. The word 'comfort' comes down to us, too. God is said to be the God of comfort. So that there is provision, and it is in the midst of remnant conditions, because we are told immediately that the enemy had found an open door amongst men through their daughters. Chapter 6 stresses this terrible fact. There is very little made of the feminine side in this section. We get no examples of anything good. Noah's wife and three daughters-in-law are mentioned, of course, but nothing special is said of them. The requirements of the position are most onerous because the vessel which had to be constructed was relatively very large.

A.A.T. Are the sons of God, mentioned in chapter 6, angels?

J.T. Yes; I suppose the designation would not mean anything more than that they had that status at one time, but morally lost it; they still retained it, as many now retain the name 'christian' and yet are unreal; so that it would be satanic work.

C.A.M. Do you not think it is remarkable that God is clarifying the idea of sonship at the end of the time?

J.T. Yes; I think God allows things at times to

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get into wrong hands so as to stress and clarify them in recovering them. The designation amongst men is first used by Cain and then we have its use here applied to these fallen beings. Today God is enlarging on this great thought, which belongs to His counsels. "Having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself", Ephesians 1:5. It had been used among men, but its fulness awaited the incarnation of Christ. In Him it appears gloriously enhanced in every way as expressed in a divine Person.

J.S. God magnified it as He brought Israel out of Egypt. "Let my son go".

J.T. Just so. The negative side in Egypt is that Pharaoh's son is to be killed. God said to Pharaoh, "Let my son go, that he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill thy son, thy firstborn", Exodus 4:23. God did kill Pharaoh's son, but Israel was let go.

J.T.Jr. Is Cain's world seen in chapter 6?

J.T. I should think the whole population of the ancient world were corrupted. This chapter says so "And Jehovah repented that he had made Man on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy Man, whom I have created, from the earth -- from man to cattle, to creeping things, and to fowl of the heavens; for I repent that I have made them" (verse 6). The whole earth was affected. "And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was full of violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth" (verse 11). Practically all were affected, but the man that God was going to use is of the line of Seth.

H.G.H. Is the question there that the energy of true life cannot belong to this world at all?

J.T. That is the thing to learn. Enoch set the pace in walking with God three hundred years. That

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was a good long time as a testimony, and incidentally, he prophesied. We are not told in the Old Testament that he did so, but we are in the New. He prophesied of wicked men, but also of the "holy myriads"; so that Enoch's walk and testimony generally were practical and effective. "He has the testimony that he pleased God". Our testimony is largely a question of our walk with God.

A.R. Is the idea that one man walked with God and then he was translated? Do you think that Lemech and Noah would be affected by Enoch's walk so that Noah goes into another world through death?

J.T. Just so; it is expressly stated in the New Testament that Enoch did not see death. It does not, however, say that here.

R.W.S. Are mixed marriages in principle like the early part of chapter 6, and are not such marriages serious matters of concern in our times?

J.T. They are one of the most difficult problems we have to cope with. Some are quite defiant about it, so that we have to be "violent" like Lemech in dealing with them; violent spiritually. There are things that unspiritual people become urgent about and they ridicule you if you object; and among these are marriages not "in the Lord". The testimony of Lemech helps us in meeting this evil; his name, which, as we have said, suggests violence in a spiritual sense, combined with his pronouncement as to Noah, affords effective material for such conflict.

J.T.Jr. Would the years of his life be suggestive? The number contains three sevens -- seven hundred and seventy-seven.

J.T. Yes. He died five years before his father. It is important to know that he died before the flood; so did Methushelah; God saw to that. They were not translated to heaven, but they were taken out of the way. Of some it is recorded later that they were taken out of the way to escape the terribleness of

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coming conditions. Noah and his house were taken through the deluge. But for all others it was such a death! Such an appalling magnitude of horror! A whole world of persons overwhelmed and destroyed irretrievably! And Noah had to face all this as with God. With the exercises and responsibility of a man who walked with God and with whom God had entered into covenant relation, charging him to prepare the ark of salvation, what a burden he must have carried!

A.A.T. If the Spirit were not present, would we not have the same condition today?

J.T. Yes; as soon as the Spirit, involving the assembly, leaves, conditions will rapidly become dreadful. The Lord's own discourse to His disciples indicates a terrible time.

A.N.W. He definitely likens it to the days of Noah before the flood; Luke 17:26, 27.

J.T. To the day that Noah entered into the ark these things went on.

A.B.P. When you refer to the strenuousness of the times and the great energy that is needed, do you have in mind the building of the ark accompanied by Noah's ministry?

J.T. I do; I was just remarking as to what an undertaking it was. They are building ships rapidly now, but as a rule big ships take a long time to build, but think of what Noah had to contend with! There had not been the like even suggested as far as we know. Here is a vessel about four hundred and fifty feet long and about seventy-five feet wide and about forty-five feet high. Well, where is Noah going to get all these materials? Who are his helpers? Are they sympathetic? Peter comments, "While the ark was preparing". It was a protracted and arduous matter; and that is where the longsuffering of God shone. Noah was suffering, but God was longsuffering!

A.B.P. What do you have in mind that corresponds today?

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J.T. Especially the building; it is a question whether we are building. In all the dispensations you get the idea of building; even in the beginning of creation, the woman was built. God leads in that, so that God gives Noah the dimensions. But did he have any draftsmen who did the work? Think of all that he had to think of in this respect! And besides, the solemn anticipation of a whole dispensation of persons about to be destroyed under the judgment of God would always be before him. Besides all this there was the testimony to be rendered through preaching, for he was a preacher of righteousness; 2 Peter 2:5. In all this we may see how much was to be done, requiring energy; and so today the energy of life is needed. To some of us, time is one of the scarcest things, and it is a question whether we are redeeming it so as to fulfil the responsibilities resting upon us. Collectively, much is left undone, many failing to accept responsibility. There is a great need for eldership and there are hardly any workers in that line. Work requiring gift is readily, indeed eagerly, accepted, whereas care for the saints in the sense of eldership, on which the stability and growth of the assembly largely depend, is much neglected. We are to care "with genuine feeling" as to how the saints get on. Thus the energy of life seen in Noah is most suggestive and appealing.

C.A.M. "His days shall be a hundred and twenty years". How do you apply that?

J.T. I would say it shows extension of time. The judgment should have fallen immediately but God kept it back in mercy. "When the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing", 1 Peter 3:20. And then only eight souls were saved. That is the serious situation -- the results were so small, in quantity. But clearly Noah was not discouraged; he went on and on and on until the divine requirements were met.

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J.H.E. Would that be the great point in Paul's letter to Timothy exhorting him as to the work of eldership?

J.T. Just so; Timothy and Titus were with Paul in the inner circle of workmanship, and the apostle would direct and stimulate them so that the needs amongst the saints should be supplied. It was a great matter that Paul had such men -- men that he could trust and to whom he could point out what was to be done. "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou mightest go on to set right what remained unordered, and establish elders in each city", Titus 1:5.

R.W.S. What was the secret of Noah's energy?

J.T. It must have extended back many years. We do not usually get such details of God's servants. We get a life-size history of Moses, and that is exceptional. In most servants character and results are the outcome of secret history with God. As to Noah, I would say that his roots are in chapter 5, in relation to "the seventh from Adam". He would learn from his predecessors, especially Enoch who walked with God. Enoch would learn from God, and Noah is said to have walked with God. How long did he walk? We are not told. After his father's statement in naming him there is nothing said until he was five hundred years old. "And Noah was five hundred years old, and Noah begot Shem, Ham and Japheth", Genesis 5:32. He thus had long experience, and it would be the making experience. God knew His man when He addressed him as recorded in chapter 6: 13, etc.

Ques. Did Noah build the ark by pattern or by specification?

J.T. There is nothing said about pattern. Specifications are given. Whether he worked out any pattern we have to leave; whether the three sons and he worked together, we are not told. No doubt

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they did, and perhaps hired men, but it was properly done; there was nothing omitted. David had a pattern, and Moses had a pattern, but it does not say that Noah had a pattern, but he had specifications.

A.B.P. Could you tell us a little more specifically what the counterpart of building the ark today would be, and what the prime features are? The ark was to go through judgment into another world.

J.T. It is the assembly now. The apostle Paul could say, "I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it. But let each see how he builds", 1 Corinthians 3:10. That goes on down to the end. The question is whether we are really engaged in it, because it is love that edifies. It works out in our localities, as the assembly is maintained in the way things are done; as love exists and is active: that in the presence of such appalling conditions that we have to do with now, including so many young people being drafted away into corrupting conditions, the work of God goes on.

J.T.Jr. Would the reason why the apostle called over the elders to Miletus be the terrible conditions that were prevalent at Ephesus and would arise?

J.T. Quite so; it is a word for us, too. "The Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God", Acts 20:28. Take heed to the work to be done. It is a love chapter, and it would look as if eldership was essential to the maintenance of the conditions of love. That is the point at the present time, I believe.

A.C-r. Nehemiah's name signifies "the comfort of Jehovah". Is the comfort of Jehovah seen in the songs in Nehemiah 12? Is the fruit of the comfort of Jehovah seen in all the strenuous things he went through?

J.T. It was on the wall they sang in two processions and both choirs stood in the house of God. The building of the wall had already taken place.

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That is the point to note: the building, and then the singing; getting our feet on sure ground. The dedication of the wall implies appreciation of the principle of separation. There were two choirs and they met together in the house. "And that day they offered great sacrifices, and rejoiced: for God had made them rejoice with great joy ... And the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off", Nehemiah 12:43. What you may observe is that certain positions the choirs pass bring out spiritual sentimental suggestions. These would associate the singing with David and others specially honoured of God.

But to return to Noah as building the ark, he should be well considered at the present time, because the difficulties are so great and the work to be done so great. The work was great in Nehemiah's time, too, and the difficulties were also great, but he succeeded by God's help, wonderfully.

A.A.T. I would suppose the element of faith came into Noah's responsibility, because it was a financial problem as well as a blueprint problem.

J.T. Well, all these things were there. We must recognise they were there; we must be practical about it, because there is nothing more practical than christianity. Much is made of finance, too, in christianity. The importance attached to it is remarkable.

A.N.W. What can be said of him is, "Noah did it; according to all that God had commanded him, so did he", Genesis 6:22. He obeyed what God told him.

J.T. Yes; and thus there was great promise in the whole position, as indicated in the light on the top -- notice, it is translated light in the New Translation, not 'window'. The original word for window in chapter 8: 6 is different. The idea is light, its root being noon. There was a great light, as it were, shining through the structure. Those walking in heavenly light are not acting in the dark, in despondency

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or discouragement. They are sons of light. Paul says, "Rejoice in the Lord always: again I will say, Rejoice", Philippians 4:4. There is such light shining in upon us as to encourage us to rejoice whatever the difficulties.

J.T.Jr. Does the idea of building begin with the believer's house? Noah built the ark for the saving of his house.

J.T. That is important, because what is nearest one's heart ought to be his house. God recognises that in the gospel. "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house", Acts 16:31. The man is recognised as having one; he loves his wife and children and they are to be saved. That would be an inner thought with Noah; he was a practical man and he feared God in connection with his house. He was moved with fear, having children. He affords a needful example for us; the dangers for children are so great, and salvation has its roots in piety. Noah was moved with fear for the saving of his house.

C.A.M. Referring to what was said about Ephesus and the building in the local setting, I suppose if we really proved it in that way householdly and locally, we would understand better what the building is in a universal way. For the Ephesians seem to have been made intelligent as to it. "In whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit", Ephesians 2:22. I suppose light of the vastness of the structure had come into their souls.

J.T. Quite so; and you have your family and your children in mind. God respects that. He knows you are not selfish. He would say, I know you are fearing Me about your children, and if you knew Me better you would fear Me more -- because parents should be the best judges of their children. God knows them and would remind parents of their tendencies and dangers.

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T.M. Would the pitch be the preserving element?

J.T. Yes; death does not get in. The ark was constituted to go right through.

F.S.C. Why was it needful to carry through all the living flesh?

J.T. That is the next thing. What was needed for the new order of things was carried through. The living creatures represented the thoughts of God. While the world that then was perished, the divine thoughts did not perish. They were preserved for the new world.

A.R. I would like help in regard to working. How is it done? Is it in the gospel or addresses to the saints?

J.T. In this type God would draw us into the vastness of what is in His mind. One world is to be destroyed and another is to take its place. Think of the immensity of this! And Noah was divinely brought into the undertaking according to its moral and physical exigencies. "Noah found favour in the eyes of Jehovah". Thus we have his history -- the word in chapter 6: 9 is 'generations'. There are two words for generation in this verse: the first refers to Noah's origin or history, the second to his circle of acquaintances, children, etc. Noah, in his personal history and character, is presented in this chapter in a very striking way. As regards materials, in the antitype the process is mainly through the gospel; but we must calculate as to what is needed: for the ark, the kind of wood needed was gopher; for the tabernacle, acacia; for the temple, cedar and olive. Anti-typically, each represents a specific quality or character and this must be kept in mind in the means employed to secure it.

A.N.W. "The Lord working with them", Mark 16:20. How would that show itself?

J.T. However humiliating circumstances may be, the Lord has His own way of showing that He is with

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us, and if He is with us, we are confident that all is well; and the results desired in our service will be reached.

A.Pf. Would you say something about the Spirit's comment in Hebrews on Noah? He was oracularly warned concerning things not yet seen.

J.T. Quite so; God warning him, gave him light and he was moved with fear by it, which was a great matter.

A.R. "By which", it says, "he condemned the world", and every one of us, as in the circle of the saints, in our actions and walk should condemn the world.

J.T. That is the thing. By the building he did that. "By which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith", Hebrews 11:7.

A.N.W. Did he preach besides, or was his work preaching?

J.T. He was a "preacher of righteousness", Peter says; 2 Peter 2:5. "In which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison, heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water", 1 Peter 3:19, 20. The Lord did that. It was by His Spirit in Noah. The Spirit went, anticipating that He would be a Man. It was the Spirit of Christ that operated in Noah, but the Lord Himself acted.

J.T.Jr. He stands out therefore as a preacher -- a preacher of righteousness. That gives character to the preaching as to what is said.

J.T. All this stresses our subject -- the energy of life. It is the energy of life in such a time, the end of the dispensation; and we are at the end of the dispensation. It is a question of maintaining, in principle, the thing in its entirety.

W.R. Noah must have been in the good of what

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he ministered. "Noah was a just man, perfect amongst his generations", Genesis 6:9.

J.T. Just so; the Spirit of God lays great stress on what the man is, and that is a word for the saints in all times.

J.T.Jr. Does he really set out the kind of wood that is here, in that way? It is gopher wood. Is that an allusion to Noah and does it not really exemplify what the wood was?

J.T. No doubt there was correspondence -- the wood would be equal to the pressure, as he was. It was what was needed, and was God's own provision. It was pitched within and without. And yet there was no water in sight. What jeering there must have been! Where is the water? How is this building going to be floated?

A.N.W. "Going he preached"; do you think he went about and preached?

J.T. Possibly. Going refers to Christ, of course. There would be great activity. Whether he hired accommodations we are not told, but it is remarkable how it is stated formally that Noah was a preacher of righteousness; also that it is stated that Christ also preached.

R.W.S. The public side was not affected at all. Do we read of him getting any converts in the wicked world?

J.T. Not one. The Lord Himself expressly says that in Noah's days they ate and drank, married and were given in marriage -- all largely on the social side. It was "until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them", Luke 17:27. In a few words such an event is described!

E.S. Noah was better than some; he got his whole house.

J.T. There were no children; I mean there were no grand-children. The grand-children are the difficult

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ones! They were all grown-ups; in fact all the cattle were grown up. It is a perfect state of things, in that sense. That is another point to keep before us.

A.P.T. Chapter 7: 23 is remarkable, "And Noah alone remained, and what was with him in the ark". Does that stress what you were speaking of, the personality of Noah himself throughout?

J.T. Yes. Typically he is "everything and in all".

A.P.T. As you were saying at the outset, it is the immensity of what is exemplified in one person.

J.T. Until the judgment is over, all the directions and commandments were to him; not a word to the sons or the wives. So that it is Noah. It is the supremacy of Christ, typically. There is nothing remiss at all. Everything is perfect.

A.R. From what you say, this narrative would suggest the idea that in the assembly there should be no babes.

J.T. No; they are all taken up on the ground of full age. This would apply also to the lower creatures.

C.A.M. The number eight has a place in all this.

J.T. Eight would mean a going over from what was set out in Enoch. You have Enoch's experience, but this is something beyond, and strenuousness is involved; Noah is a man that can do things. Besides having a family and walking with God, there is nothing said of Enoch doing anything particular. Walking with God is, of course, a great thing morally, but look at the magnitude of the work done by Noah, who also walked with God! It is to impress us that much work is needed now, and that we should be engaged in it strenuously, each doing his part.

W.R. Did the Lord Jesus carry that forward? He says, "Did ye not know that I ought to be occupied in my Father's business?" Luke 2:49.

J.T. He had the whole idea in His mind and finished it. Now as to our brother's question as to these creatures: after the specifications of the ark,

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God says, "For I, behold, I bring a flood of waters on the earth, to destroy all flesh under the heavens in which is the breath of life: everything that is on the earth shall expire. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt go into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. And of every living thing of all flesh two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee" (verses 17 - 19). And then verse 21: "And take thou of all food that is eaten, and gather it to thee, that it may be for food for thee and for them. And Noah did it; according to all that God had commanded him, so did he". We have to consider the vastness of all this. And then as to these creatures: how did they come? How did Noah influence them? Thus we may enquire as to what influence we have in this sense. For us, of course, it would be persons needing influence. Here, the creatures moved to Noah. What a marvellous thing!

J.S. Is the thought that Noah offset the breakdown in Adam?

J.T. Just so. But the matter of Adam's naming of the creatures must come into that; that is the line of the truth here. Evidently Noah knew the creatures and they knew him. That is very suggestive. How could it be without God? That is the thing to apprehend; that God was with Noah.

J.T.Jr. Would that be John's line? "No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him", John 6:44.

J.T. Just so. It is a question of life and influence over life; how we influence people in a good sense.

F.N.W. John says, speaking of the Lord "... that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad", John 11:52.

A.R. Is there anything in the fact that Noah

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goes in first into the ark and then the others follow?

J.T. That is what we get. There are additions in the verses read in chapter 7. They all bring out the vastness of the work to be done. "And Jehovah said to Noah, Go into the ark, thou and all thy house; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of all clean beasts thou shalt take to thee by sevens, a male and its female; but of the beasts that are not clean two, a male and its female. Also of the fowl of the heavens by sevens, male and female; to keep seed alive on the face of all the earth. For in yet seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days ... . And Noah did according to all that Jehovah commanded him", Genesis 7:1 - 5. And then the verses we read, "And Noah was six hundred years old" -- (the man is still before us; we have had him already as five hundred years old, and his sons -- now he is six hundred years old) "when the flood of waters was on the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowl, and of everything that creeps on the ground, there came two and two unto Noah into the ark" (they came to him) "male and female, as God had commanded Noah. And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth" (verses 6 - 10). Now think of all that is involved -- all those creatures, seven of a kind; fourteen really, I suppose, of the clean ones and two pairs of the unclean!

A.R. Does that suggest headship?

J.T. Yes; and influence, attractive power, "And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me", John 12:32. It is that sort of thing. That raises the question of how attractive one is in one's service. It is not only what I am able to do or say but what I am.

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D.P. How is it they were not biting and devouring each other?

J.T. That is a good question. You might as well enquire. How is it that we sometimes are biting and devouring our brethren. They are not doing this here. There is not a discrepancy. It is wonderful. It is the acme of perfection wrought out in creature circumstances, set before us for our example.

J.S. The creatures, going to Noah, would be the energy of life.

J.T. Quite so; that is the idea; the energy of life overcoming obstacles. That is the present lesson for the saints.

A.B.P. Do you have an example of that in the two disciples of John who followed Jesus after John had referred to Him as the Lamb of God? They went into the house with Him.

J.T. That would bring out what has been suggested as to John's ministry. It is life; the Lord says, "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12. It is a question of life. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4.

C.N. Viewing the ark as a type of the assembly, as we have done, greatly enhances its typical value, because every element of life that is preserved is preserved through it.

J.T. Quite so; it shows what a wonderful structure the assembly is and how it comes out in the coming world with everything infinitely intact -- the heavenly city -- not a discrepancy at all, and that is what John presents to us. "Having the glory of God" would imply that every thought of His is livingly there.

J.A.P. What about the food? Food was to be taken into the ark. Does that maintain life?

J.T. Yes; and there must have been all kinds of

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food; for men, cattle, fowls and creeping things -- what a variety!

J.S. We see the apostle Paul in the end of the Acts preaching and receiving all who came to him.

J.T. Quite so; they came to him, and it was a matter of test because he said of one that he sought him out very diligently, and found him; 2 Timothy 1:17. He is worth finding out and being with. And the angel said earlier, to Paul, "God has granted to thee all those that sail with thee", Acts 27:24. That is a principle running through these scriptures in Genesis.

A.P.T. Does the assembly contemplate certain gradations in life?

J.T. I think that is what is meant in what is before us -- the different gradations of life; and we have to see what a creature is, what his disposition is, and make allowances for that. If he has a different taste from others, we must make provision for it. In Matthew 24 the Lord greatly honours one who provides food for His household.

A.R. Would the ark represent the assembly as the depository of every divine thought, that everything is carried forward?

J.T. Yes; that is the idea; all is seen in heaven first. "Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Corinthians 15:48. Whatever the creatures in the "sheet" may appear to be to Peter, they will become heavenly.

J.A.P. In John 6 the Lord asks Philip, trying him, "Whence shall we buy loaves that these may eat?" Is that a question for us as to what we have for men?

J.T. Just so; hence the importance of what the Lord says to Peter, "Feed my lambs ... Shepherd my sheep ... Feed my sheep". The food in the ark must have taken up considerable space -- for all these persons, cattle, fowls and creeping things during all these days.

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A.N.W. The apostle would not send his letter to Ephesus to Corinth.

J.T. I am sure that is right. He sent a letter to Colosse and one to Laodicea and they were to be interchanged, but the one to Colosse was to be read by the Colossians first before they showed it to Laodicea; the suggestion, among other things, is food in "season".

A.B.P. There were three stories referred to at Troas, and there are three stories referred to here. Is there any connection?

J.T. There is. The ascending principle expressed in the idea of one, two, three runs through all the divine structures. It is a question of gradation; it is seen in "the third heaven".

A.B.P. I suppose a wrong application of gradation would be seen in James 2:3 when the rich man coming in is told "Sit here well" and the poor, "Stand there, or sit here under my footstool".

J.T. Quite so. What is before us is a most important matter, because we may see in the position that is depicted here a terrible time, involving great demands and very little time to fulfil them; but the testimony in these chapters is that everything required was done. So Paul says, "... having accomplished all things to stand"; and that is not simply all you can do. It is what is required -- see note in the New Translation on Ephesians 6:13. Therefore you cannot have a good conscience if needed things are not done.

E.S. The word to Joshua was to be strong and very courageous.

J.T. Quite so; that is exemplified in Noah, I am sure. The matters that national leaders of today have on hand are great indeed, but God had informed and warned Noah that the whole world was about to be destroyed by a flood and placed on him responsibility of which we have been speaking. And this

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great work had to be carried through in the midst of unsympathetic and perhaps hostile surroundings. The immensity of the burden, morally and physically, placed by God on one man is surely intended to stimulate us all on going through, by His help, the pressure which our God in His government is causing His people to experience in our times.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (9)

Genesis 11:27 - 32; Genesis 12:1 - 3; Galatians 3:7 - 14; Psalm 90:10 - 12

J.T. The shortening of human life as recorded in Genesis 11 enters into the subject before us in these readings. Abraham is especially connected with it. It is thought that the use of types in the Old Testament sometimes helps us more than direct doctrinal statements of the truth, for the types are intended, by the Spirit, to fit into our minds peculiarly. Our minds are fickle and uncertain, so that we need all the aid available to help us to retain the truth. The reduction of the duration of human life seen in Genesis 11 is intended to prepare men's minds for eternal life. The shorter our lives are, the more we are likely to think of what is eternal. Genesis 5 is similar to chapter 11 but it is intended to stress the thought of death. It is not the shortening of human life, but rather that in spite of the great longevity of men before the flood, death took place; whereas in this passage death is not stressed, but the shortening of human life. Psalm 90 accentuates this, bringing it down to seventy years. We know that in actual history the average is much less than that. If we are sincere believers in the gospel, we shall be helped in taking account of this fact and appreciate all the more what the gospel proposes; that is, life eternal. The link with the blessing of Abraham is striking, and that is what appears after we have the record of the generations of Shem. Jehovah said, "I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed", Genesis 12:3. What could blessing really be save that men are to live for ever? This comes about through redemption in Christ, so the passage

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in Galatians which was read says, "The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the nations on the principle of faith, announced beforehand the glad tidings to Abraham: In thee all the nations shall be blessed", Galatians 3:8. Abraham was heir of the world. It is clear that if the inheritance is of value there must be eternal life. Thus there will be no necessity for wills or graveyards. Death will be abolished.

C.A.M. The closing verses of chapter 11 would prepare Abraham for this.

J.T. Yes. You will notice that "Haran died before the face of his father Terah" (verse 28). "And Terah died in Haran" (verse 32). You have the actual occurrence of death in these verses. It is not mentioned in "the generations of Shem". In "the generations of Terah" death is mentioned, a man dying even before his father. But in the generations of Shem the stress is on the shortening of men's lives.

C.A.M. The shortening of human lives would tend to give us desires for what is for ever. God allows it to come in to that end.

J.T. Yes. That is why it is mentioned here. It is mentioned in connection with the son of Noah, who was blessed himself in a peculiar way. God is called his God, and the sequel of that ought to be resurrection, for God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead. So that we have a double mention of the generations of Shem: the first is in chapter 10, and then in chapter 11. He is mentioned in chapter 10 in relation to the other two sons of Noah, but here he is seen by himself, and clearly it has blessing in view. Life in men as they were was going to get gradually shorter, and wisdom would lead to thoughtfulness as to this solemn fact. Jehovah was the God of Shem and also the God of Abraham, and surely this implied more as to life than one hundred or two hundred years. In due time it would be made known that God had promised eternal life before the ages of

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time. This would come in through Abraham's Seed.

C.A.M. Is God preparing us in a special way now for the thought of eternal life, especially in the way that death is so stressed to us on every hand?

J.T. Just so; particularly bearing on young people. While they may think even seventy years is a long period, the average length of life is not nearly that. Many young children die, many boys and girls die, so that the first commandment with a promise is that it may be well with them and that they may be long-lived on the earth; Ephesians 6:1 - 3.

A.A.T. Of Job it says his latter days were his best, so that it does not always follow that our young days are the best.

C.F.E. How does the gospel fit into all this?

J.T. Well, we all know, I hope, how much place eternal life has in the gospel. It is linked up with it almost constantly, and especially in John's writings. Eternal life in John 3:16 is as forceful, you might say, as the gift of God's Son for us. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". Eternal life belongs to the idea of gift. The gift of God's Son, and the gift of eternal life go together.

J.S. Is the gift of life in the gospel to Abraham?

J.T. Clearly; what would the gospel be if it were not a matter of life, because even Abraham's life was shorter than his father's. He died at one hundred and seventy-five. It was gradual reduction. Moses himself lived one hundred and twenty, although he tells us expressly that the general age was much shorter.

A.A.T. Is it not so that of late years eternal life has not been stressed in the gospel?

J.T. It has been specially stressed for fifty years. To my knowledge what it really is is being stressed.

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That is, it is a spiritually tangible thing even now, as to spiritual enjoyment. It is life eternal. It is the fullest thought of life. The place it has in the epistles to Timothy and Titus is especially worthy of note.

W.R. Life and incorruptibility are said to be brought to light through the gospel: would you say that is over against what had preceded in the way of sin?

J.T. Yes; over against the history of sin and death. It stresses the idea of incorruptibility. The believer, as having died, is raised in incorruptibility.

A.N.W. Eternal life is a condition of life primarily, as well as duration of life?

J.T. Clearly; God placed the Cherubim in the garden lest man, in his state of sin, might put forth his hand and partake of the tree of life and live for ever. That man, as he was, should partake of the tree of life and thus live in sin for ever would be monstrous. If they refuse the gospel, men will exist for ever in the lake of fire, but that Adam, as he was, should partake of the tree of life would mean that he would live for ever in his condition of flesh and blood, which would be dreadful. Sin would be utterly abominable in its enormity. The earth could not contain the persons. How long a time would elapse until it was filled? God precluded that calamity by placing the cherubim in the garden to guard the way to the tree of life. Eternal life was a promise and a purpose. Those who are ordained to eternal life, believe. People are ordained to it; God is not at any disadvantage by sin coming in. Everything fits in His realm.

A.N.W. "... May not perish but have life eternal". What does 'perishing' suggest to you?

J.T. It is to be lost. It is falling in the wilderness. John 3:15 and 16 seem to allude to the position in the wilderness. God brought the people out of Egypt,

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figuratively believers, but with many of them He was not pleased, and their carcases fell in the wilderness. They did not even have a burial. It is the awfulness of the state of perishing as over against the blessed state of eternal life.

E.S. Is death a condition?

J.T. Death, as the judgment of God, is a condition, but it is an awful condition. The full thought is the second death. Generally in the Old Testament it was the grave, but Sheol implied more than the grave; it was the retreat or place of the dead; the unseen state. In the New Testament it is the second death. The lake of fire is the second death.

A.P.T. Would the Old Testament, in relation to the movements of the children of Israel, help us to see the types in relation to eternal life?

J.T. Yes; it is a short period of forty years, but see what happened! Six hundred thousand men died. Only one or two who came out of Egypt came into the land. What death really is, is indicated. Where unbelief exists how terrible it is! They fell in the wilderness. The gospel presents eternal life as over against that. Therefore what the types set forth is of great force in connection with nominal christians if they are not real.

J.T.Jr. So the Lord had to do with actual cases the daughter of Jairus and then the young man, the son of the widow of Nain. These were youthful; then Lazarus, who was older, had to do with death. Thus persons of various ages are seen in death.

J.T. That is remarkable. We are not told just how old the young man was, but he was a young man. The girl was twelve years old. We are told how old she was. Each one had experience in death. God thus brought in the idea of life out of death in persons of various ages and circumstances. The idea was thus placed in human hearts -- surely in view of eternal life taking form in Christ for men through redemption.

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We may thus understand the Lord's word, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal, and does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life", John 5:24. These three witnesses are necessary in relation to this great matter.

J.T.Jr. Lazarus said nothing.

J.T. Because he is a full-grown man. He needs neither to walk nor speak to show he is a living man, showing how vivid and real spiritual life is; showing also that in us it is a development. If you are a real living man, this may be discerned in you even in inactivity.

C.A.M. The way you are speaking of it now magnifies the idea of eternal life.

J.T. We are told to lay hold of it. It is realised where the Spirit is among the brethren; hence the importance of young people keeping amongst their elders. Viewed by themselves, young believers do not express much life, but as in the circle of the saints it is drawn out of them -- induced by the example and influence of those more experienced and spiritual. Normally the circle would include the three grades of life we have been considering. What an influence Lazarus would exert!

A.N.W. There the Lord would command the blessing, even life for evermore.

J.T. That would fit in here. The Psalms are the experimental side of things. Of the Lord Himself it is said in the Psalms, "He asked life of thee; thou gavest it him, length of days for ever and ever", Psalm 21:4. David in Psalm 133 presents the truth relative to the conditions of life in a vivid way. The Spirit is seen in relation to certain personal features of Christ -- "the precious oil upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, upon Aaron's beard, that ran down to the hem of his garments". Also, "As the dew of Hermon that descendeth on the mountains of

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Zion". It is what comes down in the sense of anointing and refreshing power. The Psalm begins with the thought of unity, but unity as the effect of what comes down from Christ. And "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore". It is an imperative thing. God commands it there. He would have it there.

A.I. When Elihu was speaking to Job in chapter 33, he said, "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life". How would you link that up with the thought of life which you are speaking of?

J.T. That is the believer as formed of God. Extended to christians it is each having a spiritual existence -- formed of God and indwelt by His Spirit. There is formation by the Spirit as well as quickening and dwelling. God formed Man and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and Man became a living soul.

A.R. Elisha's staff could not raise the Shunammite's boy. He "lay upon the child, and put his mouth upon his mouth, and his eyes upon his eyes, and his hands upon his hands, and bent over him", 2 Kings 4:29 - 35.

J.T. The boy must come to life in relation to Elisha; he would take in the character of Elisha's faculties. We are risen, and quickened with Christ, according to Colossians. "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God: have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth; for ye have died", Colossians 3:1 - 3. The answer to this type is, I think, in Colossians. It is said, "The body is of Christ", chapter 2: 17. We are brought to life in relation to Him; "the last Adam a quickening spirit", 1 Corinthians 15:45.

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A.R. Do you think the boy would really take on the characteristics of the prophet?

J.T. Yes; that is the typical instruction. You will remember how the prophet "walked in the house to and fro". It was an exercising thing for him. Then he "went up, and bent over him. And the lad sneezed". The walking to and fro in the house indicates that the prophet was questioning as to whether there might be deadening things in it, and that the boy might have been brought up in relation to them.

Eternal life, as a general blessing, is connected with Abraham; not that it was not indicated in the antediluvian world, because it was. It was in Enoch, and Seth had the thought of it negatively in calling his son's name Enosh, which meant he was mortal. There was no idea that, as come from Adam, he would live for ever. Clearly light came in through Seth. "Then people began to call on the name of Jehovah". But when we come through the flood and life begins to shorten, I think the suggestion is that God would bring in eternal life as blessing for men in a person -- in Abraham. "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed", Genesis 12:3. That is in Christ. We have no such thought in the antediluvian world as that. We have the tree of life, which was judicially barred to men as in Adam; but after the flood we have a man through whom all families are to be blessed. It is called the blessing of Abraham. "That the blessing of Abraham might come to the nations in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith", Galatians 3:14. It lies in the Spirit now, as a practical matter. We are enjoined to lay hold of it.

J.T.H. It is said that Sarah was barren. Why is barrenness so strongly mentioned in this family?

J.T. That is another thing that helps in what we are saying, for wives for those to whom the promises were made came from Terah's generations. Barrenness

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is mentioned immediately in connection with Terah's family. The great thoughts in God's mind for Abraham necessitated a family, and barrenness stood in the way of the accomplishment of them. In the New Testament this fact is strongly used in relation both to Abraham and Sarah to testify to the power of God working through their faith. Thus it is said of Abraham, "... before the God whom he believed, who quickens the dead, and calls the things which be not as being; who against hope believed in hope to his becoming father of many nations, according to that which was spoken. So shall thy seed be and not being weak in faith he considered not his own body already become dead, ... and the deadening of Sarah's womb, ... but found strength in faith, giving glory to God", Romans 4:17 - 20. And of Sarah it is said, "By faith also Sarah herself received strength for the conception of seed ... . Wherefore also there have been born of one, and that of one become dead, even as the stars of heaven in multitude", Hebrews 11:11, 12. In Abraham and Sarah, therefore, we have the power of God on the principle of quickening from the dead, overcoming barrenness so that the purpose of God should stand. All this has an important bearing on the blessing coming through Abraham on all the families of the earth.

E.S. In Sarah, do we live on the basis of promise?

J.T. Yes; subjectively the Seed came through her. Her name was changed in view of this. God said to Abraham, "I will bless her, and I will give thee a son also of her; and I will bless her, and she shall become nations: kings of peoples shall be of her", Genesis 17:16.

A.R. Referring again to the Shunammite's son, it is said that the king was asking Gehazi of the great things Elisha had done, and he told him he had raised a dead body to life, and as he was telling him the woman came in with her son and Gehazi said to the

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king, "This is the woman, and this is her son, whom Elisha restored to life", 2 Kings 8:5.

J.T. That would imply that life in the sense mentioned, was progressing normally. The original word for "new" in Colossians 3:10 signifies 'young or fresh'. The man that was raised up at the pool of Bethesda did not remain with the Lord; he was not visible as a testimony. The man in Acts 3 was visible. He stayed with Peter and John and held them. In 2 Kings 8 it is the woman and her son. There is living witness, not a mere report. That is from an uncertain man. It is testimony as in Colossians; believers are viewed there as living in Christ's life. All that is especially helpful for the young. It is said, in John 12, "... where was the dead (man) Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead". He was there -- alive. Anyone that came to Bethany could see him. Some believed on the Lord because of him.

C.A.M. Being alive in this sense is really the way into the inheritance. Did that come up in connection with the Shunammite?

J.T. Yes. The inheritance was given back to her; 2 Kings 8:6. Typically, it is the revival of Israel and their inheritance restored. Our inheritance is seen in Ephesians. Colossians is a question of life according to Christ; we are raised and quickened with Him.

C.N. As to God breathing into Adam the breath of life and he becoming a living soul -- how far would that life extend?

J.T. Only to Adam and Eve; it was human life in innocency and hence it ended as they sinned. Although Adam lived physically a long time after he began to sin, morally and judicially his life was forfeited when he partook of the forbidden fruit.

C.N. Therefore the promise of life, according to the counsels of God would date before this?

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J.T. Yes, indeed. That is what we are dealing with.

J.T.Jr. Does that come out in Isaac? Abraham said about Ishmael, "Oh, that Ishmael might live before thee!" Genesis 17:18. Evidently there was something in Ishmael that attracted him, whereas Isaac represents life in the Spirit.

J.T. "In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee". God has not left us in the types without a real thought, and I believe Colossians is worthy of our attention as to whether we are "according to Christ" or whether we are after Ishmael -- a mixture. John 3:16, as usually presented, is apt to leave us with bare assurance for the future, whereas it provides for the present also. True believers are "passed out of death into life", John 5:24.

T.E.H. How is a person such as Jairus' daughter to be sustained in life? Her parents were told to give her something to eat.

J.T. That comes up often. It is certainly needed -- there is so much sorrow in connection with the young amongst us; the need for receiving proper spiritual food is most important. As raised up by the Lord she walked (Mark 5:42) showing she had strength. Hence the parents were obligated in regard of her food. She needed what would sustain her spiritually. There should be nothing deadening in the house either in conversation or in reading matter. The critical way the saints are talked about does much harm. It is certain to work out adversely in the judgment the children form of their elders.

A.P.T. Was there something needed in Timothy to unravel the mixed line which would have come from his father being a Greek, not said to have been a believer, but his mother a "Jewish believing woman"?

J.T. He needed to have rekindling done and he was to do it himself; 2 Timothy 1:6. Evidently there was something weakening in him as there is in most

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of us. We need resetting up and refreshing constantly. The apostle John was representative of life in a striking way. In the Scriptures no one speaks more of it than he. He was directed to eat "the little book", Revelation 10:9. The voice out of heaven said, "It shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey". That was the experience which indicated that his condition was normal. John said, "I ... ate it up; and it was in my mouth as honey, sweet; and when I had eaten it my belly was made bitter". His reaction was according to heaven. The word of God should always be sweet in our mouths, but if it indicates suffering in the saints it is bitter. John's reaction showed that he qualified to "prophesy again". Spiritually, his sensations were true to life. So that he should continue his ministry in full measure.

W.R. Paul says in Romans 12, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Is there not a tendency with us to fall back into a weak or deadened condition?

J.T. Yes. In Romans, one of the threads running through is newness: newness of life, newness of spirit, and renewing of the mind. All that enters into what we are saying as to the activity of life. I think it is very important to notice the shortening of actual physical life seen in Genesis; it is in view of the blessing; the blessing of Abraham. The Lord has lately taken away a good many; some young. Some are ill, too. It is intended to sober and teach us wisdom. Moses, in our psalm prays, "So teach us to number our days, that we may acquire a wise heart", Psalm 90:12. God reminds us constantly of the brevity of human life. It is a law really, because if it were accidental, one might say, I may live as long as Methushelah, but that is not to be, because it is governed in a general way by law. It would be folly in anyone to hope to live as long as Methushelah or Abraham or Jacob. It is not happening. The truth

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is that the reduction in the period of human life is a law in the government of God.

R.W.S. So to speak, you might miss a meeting in the millennium, because longevity will be so great, but now our time is so short, it is a question of getting all possible; is that it?

J.T. Yes; you can see that in Genesis 11, it is not persons specially selected that are in mind. It is a line of persons from Shem down; they represent the general rule. Thus we may accept that God has decreed in His government the shortening of human life, and this fact should accentuate in believers, and in men generally, the greatness of eternal life and the absolute need of it.

F.N.W. The passage in 1 Timothy referred to before, urging the need of laying hold of eternal life, is preceded by the thought of piety, and the reminder that "we have brought nothing into the world: it is manifest that neither can we carry anything out", chapter 6: 7. Is piety a basic thing?

J.T. Very much so. It is greatly stressed in that passage. "Piety with contentment is great gain".

A.Pf. "Honour thy father and thy mother, which is the first commandment with a promise, that it may be well with thee, and that thou, mayest be long-lived on the earth" (Ephesians 6:2, 3) -- does that have any effect on the shortening of life?

J.T. It would not mean that the fixed law, as we may call it, in the government of God indicated in this chapter, was altered. It only means that young people have this conditional promise. It is the first commandment with a promise, and what does the promise mean? It clearly means that God is recognising a certain rightness in young people, who are obedient to their parents, to live to a normal age; they are not to die in childhood. It is quite right for young persons to value this. It induces piety, which God specially honours. I think the "promise" is

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intended to save them from their own wills because it is a question of honouring their fathers and mothers -- being subject.

R.W.S. What about the enjoyment of eternal life? Is that connected with the company or has it an individual bearing?

J.T. It is a blessing which the believer is contemplated as possessing, as we have seen in John 5:24 and other scriptures, but clearly it is accentuated amongst the saints, where the Spirit has liberty. Psalm 133 shows that eternal life is commanded where certain collective conditions exist; and in 1 John 3:14 it is said, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren". Acts 13:48 mentions that "as many as were ordained to eternal life" believed. And in verse 52 it is said that "the disciples were filled with joy and the Holy Spirit". Evidently the great truth of eternal life was taking effect in those that believed. It started immediately. It is an eternal blessing, but immediate in its effect on those who appropriate it.

A.R. Did not F.E.R. say you must have a sphere in order to live?

J.T. The sphere is the assembly, 'an out-of-the-world condition of relationship and being in which eternal life consists', and that is in the circle of the Lord's people. The three persons whom the Lord raised, already mentioned -- Jairus' daughter, the young man of Nain and Lazarus -- taken together, indicate, I believe, the collective quality and character of the saints as affording the sphere of life at the present time. It is a living state of things.

D.P. Would the death of Dorcas (Acts 9), bring out the power of God that was current amongst the saints to set aside death and bring in victory through a man -- Peter?

J.T. That great work is most clearly understood by taking into account its setting in the book of

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Acts. Paul had already been called out, and he had preached that Jesus is the Son of God. It is through him life comes in, and Peter went "through all quarters"; this was in accordance with the extension of thought that God had brought in in the ministry, that believers were not to be confined to Israel. Ministers were to go further afield, and Peter accepted that fact, no doubt under the influence of the Spirit. He raised up Aeneas and told him to make his bed for himself. That implied the energy of life. Perhaps his bed had never been so well made! For a living man would do everything right. There was a striking result from this miracle, for "all who inhabited Lydda and the Saron saw him, who turned to the Lord". Dorcas was a seamstress, and she died, and they laid her in the upper room, and sent for Peter. This woman was highly regarded by the widows, and the disciples, too; nevertheless, she died. But life was active; it was effective in a mediatorial sense, that is, in Peter. He came and was brought to the upper room. The widows were weeping, but evidently governed by natural feeling -- of no value in such circumstances. It is a question of spiritual life. He put them all out "and kneeling down, prayed. And, turning to the body, he said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes, and, seeing Peter, sat up" (verse 40). That is the idea. It is an objective effect. She would live according to that objective. It is a Colossian thought, as we have noted in others. Peter gave Dorcas his hand and raised her up. And having called the widows, he presented her living. It is an objective thought of life. The woman is made to live after an objective pattern. She would never forget what Peter was as she saw him, a living person, a mediatorial person -- used by God to raise her from the dead.

J.A.P. Why did the Lord say, "Take me not away in the midst of my days!" Psalm 102:24?

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J.T. It means, as I understand it, that the Lord as here in the sphere of the government of God, valued life; He was not unreal about it. He valued His ordinary life; He valued His food; He valued His relatives; He valued the brethren as they came before Him. He enjoyed what God had ordained.

J.T.Jr. Would you say He recognised the limit of seventy, when He said, "In the midst of my days"?

J.T. That is what is alluded to, I believe.

A.N.W. The answer is remarkable: "Thy years are from generation to generation". There again you have infinite length of time against the shortness.

J.T. The Spirit of God did not allow that to pass without bringing out His deity. "But thou art the Same, and thy years shall have no end".

A.P.T. In John 8 they say to the Lord Jesus, "Thou hast not yet fifty years". It gives Him an opportunity of bringing forward His deity.

J.T. Quite so. He says immediately, "Before Abraham was, I am". That is the same as Psalm 102. He is the eternal God.

R.W.S. Is life emphasised in connection with the extension of Hezekiah's life by fifteen years?

J.T. Yes. Fifteen years is not eternal life, but it indicates what God can do as to life. It could be fifteen million years if God thought it well. Eternal life was in God's mind. The extension was a testimony to Hezekiah as to what God could do.

A.C. Would the raising of the youth by Paul (Acts 20), illustrate what you are saying as to the value of eternal life?

J.T. Just so; he delivered him to the saints. The youth fell by gravity, whereas going down was the energy of life in Paul. The incident is remarkable in that chapter because, as we have often remarked, it begins with love and ends with love. It is a love chapter, and that young man was at the window opening, not in the enjoyment of the circle. There

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were many lights in the upper chamber which would mean that there were lovable men there. Their names were given before -- the most notable of Paul's converts. And this young man, seemingly, did not value them. But later it is said, "They brought away the boy alive, and were no little comforted". From these words we may assume that as resuscitated by Paul -- brought away alive -- the youth would henceforth value the sphere of love and add to it.

A.R. Life was evident in the Lord when on His way to the house of Jairus. The woman said, "If I shall touch but his clothes I shall be healed", Mark 5:28. She felt there was virtue in His garments -- representing perhaps the saints.

J.T. Quite so. She is called "daughter" by the Lord. Virtue went out of Him and healed her. Recognised as daughter, she is in the family of faith. It is the man, the woman and the child in that chapter. The man is delivered from the demons, the woman healed as the Lord was on the way to Jairus' house, and the child raised up. Again there is the idea of the circle of the saints.

E.S. When Paul was stoned the brethren encircled him; Acts 14:19, 20.

J.T. Yes. And he rose up and entered into the city. He had that experience. It is a touching testimony to the power of life in the circle of divine love. The encircling love of the disciples would henceforth be increasingly valued by Paul.

A.A.T. Is eternal life a special christian blessing? Do the Jews come into it?

J.T. The Jews come into it, because it is the blessing of Abraham. The Jews are his children as we are. The blessing extends to the earthly family as well as the heavenly.

A.N.W. The nations come into it.

J.T. Just so. It has come to us through the gospel, the Spirit being the power of it. So that I

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think the blessing of Abraham characteristically is life. Much else, of course, works out from it, but eternal life is the general blessing.

F.N.W. Genesis 25 says that Abraham died old and full of days, although his years were only a hundred and seventy-five. Does that suggest there is to be the filling out in life of the time allotted to us?

J.T. Just so. You could not say that of a man like Methushelah even though there may have been something of God in him. He died before the flood came. I suppose fulness of days in Abraham would mean that they were full of events of importance. What is anyone unless his life is full of events that are important? What is important in your life? It certainly is not your business! It is what is important in the mind of God. This, in principle, would imply living days.

F.N.W. Does the numbering of our days help us to fill in the time?

J.T. Just so. That you might know how many days you have and make the best use of them. We are to redeem the time.

E.T.M. The apostle in speaking of certain things says, "But this I say, brethren, the time is straightened", 1 Corinthians 7:29. Would he have this in mind?

J.T. Yes. He was dealing with the subject of marriage, one of the most important subjects in the minds of most; but as he pointed out, it is not really to be so classified. He says, "He that marries himself does well; and he that does not marry does better". Earlier in the chapter he says, "I wish all men to be even as myself; but every one has his own gift of God". What is stated in this most practical chapter requires to be carefully analysed, but it plainly indicates that marriage is not so important as we are apt to regard it. The person that does not marry, the apostle says, does better. That is remarkable. It has to be accepted, too, as truth.

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C.A.M. We are generally slow in accepting the truth. I was thinking of the twelve years of that woman of Luke 8. She had tried many doctors and only got worse. We are reluctant to turn to eternal things where relief is really found.

J.T. That is what the gospels stress. They show the brevity of human life, and so the Lord says to Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die", John 11:25. All that links with Abraham, the father of all that believe.

A.I. Would you in any way link John the baptist with this thought of the shortening of life?

J.T. Yes; he died a comparatively young man.

R.W.S. Would you enlarge on the remark that you made in one of the earlier readings that the life we are considering was more active, and eternal life is more what is fixed?

J.T. I thought we should get on to that later. What we are stressing now is the brevity of human life, as accentuating the greatness of eternal life. What eternal life is we shall seek to see later -- in John's writings; but in the meantime, it is what these types signify as leading up to the main thought. We should keep in our minds the steady reduction of human life in the generations of Shem. It is no accident at all. It is God establishing a law in His government, and there it is. It comes down to Abraham. He is the youngest so far. He is seventy-five now, and he is active, and he dies one hundred years later.

A.P.T. Life was connected with the priesthood in Numbers. Is there anything in that for us at the present moment?

J.T. There is; priestly service is in the energy of life. Aaron's rod budded and yielded ripened fruit. "The staff of Aaron ... budded, and brought forth

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buds, and bloomed blossoms, and ripened almonds", Numbers 17:8. The service of God must be living. It is over against the rebellion of Korah, who belonged to the tribe of Levi but rebelled against Moses and Aaron. Life is essential to real priesthood. That is what is in mind. Profession of the truth, mere knowledge of doctrine and ability for preaching and teaching are not enough.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (10)

1 John 1:1 - 10; 1 John 2:1 - 18; 1 John 3:1 - 3

J.T. In our last reading we looked at some scriptures relative to the reduction of the span of human life. Genesis 11, recording the generations of Shem and Terah, shows that human life was in gradual process of reduction, coming down to Abraham, who lived only one hundred and seventy-five years -- a short period as compared with the longevity of those in the antediluvian world. And life was further shortened to one hundred and forty-seven years in Jacob and one hundred and ten in Joseph. Moses says by the Spirit in Psalm 90, "The days of our years are three score years and ten". It is thought that all these facts bear on the question of life eternal; that is, human life becoming shorter, eternal life becomes greater in exercised minds. Psalm 133 says, "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore", over against the brief period of Psalm 90 already referred to. Psalm 90 is a matter of consequence, especially for young people -- how brief human life is! Those of us who are older know it is so. So that all of these facts ought to affect old and young as to the great blessing of eternal life which God has secured through Christ.

It is thought now that we should go into the first epistle of John, the writer being the minister the Spirit of God has used so largely in unfolding this great subject. In this epistle he presents life in substantial evidence as it came out in Christ as a Man -- heard, seen and handled. And then, God's order was that it should appear in testimony in the graded circles of fellowship: first, the fellowship of the Father and Son; and then the apostles coming into that fellowship, so that we have fellowship with

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them. The truth of eternal life is thus seen in testimony on the most exalted platform. And then there is the fellowship in life which christians have "with one another"; and then life is seen expressed in family growth. So that the epistle sets life before us in a very concrete, orderly and beautiful way. Thus there should be no mistaking of those who are in possession, by the power of the Spirit, of eternal life in Christ. We have the expression in this epistle of eternal life not abiding in certain ones. The positive idea would be that in those that believe it does abide by the Spirit; and it gives character to them. Someone has said that eternal life is like an ocean and the believer like a basket in it -- the basket is in the ocean and the ocean is in the basket!

J.S. Would the fellowship be in the light, and would life be expressed in love?

J.T. Fellowship is in the light. Spiritually life is light. In Christ, life was the light of men; John 1:4. If we walk in the light as God is in the light, we have fellowship with one another. In our chapter the first idea of fellowship is in the Father and the Son, and then the apostles come into that (verse 3). And then christians have fellowship with the apostles -- "that ye also may have fellowship with us", the apostle says. So it is a graded matter. Finally, there is fellowship with one another. "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another" (verse 7). So the matter of fellowship in this chapter is remarkable and requires close attention in regard to our subject.

A.N.W. In the better translation (verse 2), the article "the" precedes eternal life. Would you please say a word as to what that signifies -- "the eternal life"?

J.T. Well, the article usually gives the whole idea, and that should be before us tonight. The Lord uses it Himself in John 17. "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and

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Jesus Christ whom thou has sent" (verse 3). The note tells us that the article is added because it throws the emphasis on "eternal" as in the Greek.

M.D.F. "He that has the Son has life", 1 John 5:12.

J.T. Yes, that is stated, too. The subject is very great, clearly coming into the Scriptures in Genesis 2, including the tree of life, and it runs through to the last chapter of Revelation; in fact, it is stated that it was a promise before the world. In the earlier meetings we have entered into the subject largely as expressed in the idea of life as energy at the present time, but it is now thought that we should see it in its fulness, as has just been suggested. John here says, "We ... report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us" (verse 2). So that nobody may be mistaken as to that expression, it should be remarked that it does not refer to what was before the world. It is a question of what Christ was as Man here; Christ was with the Father as a Man. As it is said, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father)", John 1:14. Of course, He had part with the Father as in Deity, but this passage contemplates Him as incarnate.

C.A.M. I think you have said that when the Lord Jesus was here on earth eternal life was here in testimony.

J.T. That is right. He was contemplated by the disciples as "an only-begotten with a father". "The eternal life which was with the Father"; the allusion there is to what had taken form in Christ. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4. And so we have the idea of the manifestation of it in 1 John 2; but in chapter 3, we have the word 'manifestation' used in connection with another truth. It is said, "Beloved, now are we children of

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God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested" (verse 2). The brethren will notice the word 'manifested' here does not refer to what is in chapter 1. What is alluded to here is not yet manifested, "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". That is yet future, but the manifestation in chapter 1 is what came out in Christ as Man here, with the Father, but made known, as John says, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father". Then what they saw in Him in that sense is reported to the saints. That is the graded way in which the truth is stated. What they saw is presented in the testimony to us that we might have fellowship with them.

R.W.S. Do the words that Peter speaks of -- "Thou hast the words of life eternal", bear on this and follow what you said as to the Father and Son?

J.T. That would be the order of the truth. They were words the apostles had heard. The "words of life eternal" would render the great blessing intelligible -- in language, not simply manifestation.

A.P.T. That is the "word of life" as in our chapter.

J.T. That is the same thing, but it is not 'words' here, but "word". It is making known the whole thought by speaking or writing.

A.P.T. Would that be involved in "that which we have seen and heard"? Is that the result of what he says, "the word of life"?

J.T. It was concerning the word of life; the externals; that is, the Lord's Person in flesh; but the word of life is to be regarded by itself, what was said: "Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life", Acts 5:20. That is more than eternal life. It is the life of Jesus as here on earth; but in that life eternal life was witnessed to.

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W.F.K. Is the word of life the Lord Himself?

J.T. Yes, in the sense that He expressed life -- conveyed it in verbal testimony. It is not a title. But the formal statement, "The Word" in John 1 is a title. Christ was the expression of the mind of God; He was it and expressed it in His Person among men -- by word and otherwise -- and hence the Greek word logos was employed by the Spirit to designate His Person.

W.F.K. It speaks of handling, concerning the word.

J.T. It is what they handled. "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life" (verse 1). It does not say that they handled the word of life. It was concerning. It refers to the Lord's Person in manhood.

J.T.Jr. It is covered by the word 'that' throughout.

J.T. Yes; it is a question of what was there. It is the Lord's Person as visible, but it was concerning the word of life. The word of life is the spiritual side. The other is what could be seen by human eyes. The wording is to show that it was real, tangible -- in a Person that anybody could see as a physical object.

A.B.P. Is it intended that the quality which is covered by the word 'that' continues now? Is the quality that was there -- the thing itself expressed in Christ -- continued now through the Spirit operating in the saints?

J.T. Yes. It includes "that which we have seen and heard we report to you" (verse 3). There is what was tangible and what was spiritual in the report. The 'that' in verse 1 is to bring out that what was testified to by the apostles was not a mere spiritual apparition, that some thought it might have been; it was a real tangible Person. That is really what is

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meant, that the Lord Jesus brought the thing in in that way so that there should be no question as to the reality of it. Of course the 'that' as applied to Christ could not be here in that sense now, because He is not here personally, but the idea of persons physically being affected by life is true. We ought to be affected by it so that anyone that sees the christian sees something tangible as to what christianity means.

J.T.Jr. Being with the Father would be something entirely new; it never existed before in that way? It is said of Enoch that he walked with God. That did not rise to this, did it?

J.T. No; this is what was with the Father. We have, for instance in Luke, quoting Gabriel, "The holy thing also which shall be born ...". It is an allusion to the substantiality of Christ's Person, speaking reverently, that the word 'thing' was used, but substantially holy. It grew up here into manhood. The neuter is used here -- "that which", but it alludes, in verse 1, to what was observable in Christ as a Man as a witness to this great matter of life.

A.N.W. Is there more than what is recorded in the four gospels in the report? Verse 3 says, "That which we have seen and heard we report to you" -- when did they do that?

J.T. That would be in the apostolic service. John may have done more of it than others, but it would be apostolic service. But what did they see? They saw before they began to report.

A.N.W. I wondered whether in their ministry they covered more than is recorded in the gospels.

J.T. I would be doubtful of that, because I think the gospels go further in the sense that "in him was life and the life was the light of men". That is not alluding to the apostolic ministry; it alludes to what had been seen in Christ as here. That was the old commandment -- what they heard from the beginning. It was the same in principle as the new

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commandment. "Again, I write a new commandment to you, which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light already shines", 1 John 2:8. That is christianity. That brings christianity into accord with Christ personally. The passage in John 1 implies that "the life was the light of men", was the old commandment; it was shining in Him, not simply through the apostolic ministry; and now the new commandment is true in Him and true in us. Thus "the true light already shines". I think that ought to be clearly in mind because the testimony is light, but it is not simply that we have doctrine, but we have what is substantial in the sense of life; the life was the light of men, and I think that enters into the new commandment in chapter 2, and it still goes on. Christianity is the same light, in that sense, that shone in Jesus.

A.R. Would it be exemplified in Peter and John going up to the temple to pray and saying, "Look on us"?

J.T. Just so.

F.N.W. Paul used the word of life in Philippians "holding forth the word of life", Philippians 2:16.

J.T. That enters into what we are saying. Christianity implies the new commandment in chapter 2, and is in accord with the old commandment which was in Christ. And the old commandment is what is true in Christ here; the new commandment is what is true in us here in the Spirit; so christianity is the new commandment.

A.A.T. Do we not understand ministry much better if we listen to the minister? Seeing the Lord and listening to Him, you would get a better impression than simply reading about Him?

J.T. That is so because when enquired of by the Jews as to who He was, the Lord said to them, "... altogether that which I also say unto you".

A.R. Paul says, "God is faithful, by whom ye

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have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord", 1 Corinthians 1:9. Does that fit here?

J.T. It is not the same thing as the apostles' fellowship. Of course there is a link in the word 'fellowship'. In Corinthians, however, it is the fellowship of God's Son. Here it is "with".

R.W.S. Will you enlarge on the idea of gradations in fellowship.

J.T. I think it is very important, because I think we make it too general, whereas there are great niceties in the scripture that are food to us, and especially this great matter of fellowship in relation to life. It is set in graded positions; first the Father and Son; that is, the Son as Man here, with the Father; and then the apostles coming into what they had in the sense of fellowship; not simply that they had the light from the Father and the Son but there was fellowship in it -- "and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ"; then thirdly that we have fellowship with the apostles; and fourthly, we have fellowship with one another. That is another thing. We might say the apostles are also in that, for John here says, "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another".

A.D. Would it be diverting too much to distinguish between our position in sonship and this matter of fellowship that we are discussing?

J.T. John does not treat of sonship in the saints. He treats of sonship in Christ pre-eminently, but in us, very little; sonship is more what we are Godward, which is Paul's line. The fellowship is what is before men. And chapter 2 is what we are as christians down here; that we have part in the new commandment, the new commandment being true in Him and in us. It is the old commandment in Christ, that is, what He was here as Man. Now He has accomplished redemption and ascended to heaven and the Spirit

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has come, the thing that is true in Him is true in us. It is a new commandment, so christianity is a new commandment. It never grows old but retains its freshness.

R.W.S. Is the quality of eternal life on a lower level because of the gradation?

J.T. I do not think there is any change in the quality. The thing is true in Him and in us. It is eternal life in both cases.

R.W.S. I was interested in the allusion to gradations, as if we were at a disadvantage because we were not in the position in which the apostles were.

J.T. Chapter 2 generalises. Verse 7 says, "Beloved, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment, which ye have had from the beginning". Now, we will have to take that by itself. And what is that old commandment? Well, the apostle says, "An old commandment, which ye have had from the beginning". That was what Christ was as Man here. And then he says in verse 8, "Again, I write". I think that word 'again' is a new subject, as the Lord said in Matthew 18:19, "Again I say to you". Here in this word 'again', it seems to me, the Lord is coming into christianity. The position in which Christ was as Man here is terminated. He has died out of that and gone into heaven, and we shall never have a condition like that again. There never was the like of that before either; but this new commandment in verse 8 is christianity, and that holds the ground now. It really is the only thing that holds the ground now. The Spirit here holds the ground as to this matter; so that he goes on to say, "which thing is true in him and in you". That is not what was true but is true; what He is now. And thus, "because the darkness is passing and the true light already shines". It is passing in those who have the Spirit. Every person that comes into this is the termination of

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some darkness; a great substantial fact. Every real christian represents some darkness displaced.

W.R. Is this the same thought as the Lord Himself presented to the disciples in John 15, "This is my commandment, that ye love one another, as I have loved you"?

J.T. Quite so; that is a commandment that is translated into a message in this epistle (chapter 3: 11), that we should love one another. It is the second message in this epistle.

C.A.M. Were you not stressing, in connection with gradation, the first thing was what this was to the Father?

J.T. Yes; what did the Father find there? He was with the Father, is said here. What did He have? I mean to say, that is a thought to arise in the heart. Considered as by Themselves, what was there? This is an historical fact, and it corresponds with John 1:18, "... the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". It is an allusion to the same fact.

C.A.M. What is so impressive is what you said that this was in a time condition; it was what took place after the Lord became Man.

J.T. That is right; it had taken form in Christ as Man as with the Father Himself; it was from the beginning, not in the beginning as in John 1. That is the order of the truth. What was eternal life in Christ to the Father? It was between the Father and the Son, you might say; and then the twelve are brought into it as John says, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1:14.

J.T.Jr. Do you take the beginning to allude to His birth?

J.T. The allusion, properly, in John's way of putting things, would be when He was actually a Man. It was there all the time, but I think God waited for testimony from fulness of manhood. I

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think what you say is right. The question was raised many years ago as to whether eternal life was in Christ as a Babe. Of course, it was. God was there, but then the time for display had not come. John here is referring to what was manifested.

A.P.T. The word 'was', verse 2: "... which was with the Father" -- is that, as to time, what you are speaking about?

J.T. That would be in manhood; we have to leave the actual historical moment, but it certainly was something that came under the Father's eye. There is a note there which helps somewhat. The original word indicates "the place where, or the state" -- the most lovable One in the place of supreme love: "... the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", John 1:18. In the epistle it is that which and with the Father. It is Christ as Man viewed as in the condition and character in which the life was manifested. The character of Christ as He came under the Father's eye by Himself is set before us, also what the hallowed eyes of the apostles saw and what their hallowed hands touched. It is not simply that the Lord Jesus came under the Father's eye at a given time. He came under it all the time. The Spirit of God is speaking, but He is speaking of Christ in the character of the manifestation of eternal life. He was with the Father, but manifested to the apostles -- by them heard, seen and handled.

C.A.M. There must have been something very special for the Father in this.

J.T. That is the point to apprehend; what there must have been for God there. What was there between God and Adam when He breathed into him the breath of life? There must have been something, but think of what there was for the Father with Jesus alone, as it were, before His eye and with Him in the character of eternal life. And then the life was

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manifested to the apostles in the most intimate and positive way and thus reported in testimony to the saints.

A.R. Is that why he mentions that our fellowship is indeed with the Father? Is that what He was as under the eye of the Father, and we are brought into it, too?

J.T. Yes. They understood what they were dealing with, and they were enjoying it, too, and then the saints come into it through their report, the Holy Spirit having His part in it.

J.T.Jr. Do you get the thought in the Lord's own words: "... a man who has spoken the truth to you, which I have heard from God". Is that the idea that eternal life is testified to in that way?

J.T. Just so; whatever it was, it is specially noted here, that eternal life which was with the Father. It was first with the Father, and then it was manifested to the disciples. Acts 1:3 says, "to whom also he presented himself living". That would be the fulness of it in Him as risen.

F.N.W. What you say would be confirmed in the latter part of Acts 1"... all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John". Is it as if Matthias, in having part in this fellowship, must have seen Him from that point on?

J.T. Yes; that, however, is in view of assembling. This is in view of life. It is what God is bringing in for man according to His eternal purpose, and it is now taking form in Jesus under His own eye. Then the apostles were brought into that. I believe it required the Holy Spirit for them to understand it rightly.

T.E.H. Do we see a foreshadowing of this holy life between the Father and Son, as seen between Abraham and Isaac in the conversation on the way to the mountain?

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J.T. The types help. We are reminded of John 1 the "glory as of an only-begotten with a father". How beautiful are the reciprocal affections expressed!

R.W.S. Eternal life is not a quality; the allusion here is to a Person, is it?

J.T. It is "the eternal life, which was with the Father". I would not make too much of terms, but on the other hand, we must not generalise too much and thus miss the gain of the food to be found in words used by the Spirit in such an exalted subject as the one under consideration. The neuter being used, it is not simply the Person of Christ that is in mind but rather the fact that what expressed eternal life could be handled; that is, it was a real material Person, outwardly like any other man that could be handled. John lay in His bosom and on His breast; John 13:23 - 25. Well, there it is that. How accessible He was! How intimate were the relations between Him and the disciples! Thus it is "that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life". That is, any one of the apostles could say (if, for instance, he were speaking to an interested man like Cornelius) I actually partook of the same dish at meals, embraced the Person who has brought eternal life into this world. How wonderful!

C.A.M. Manhood did not add anything to the Lord in His own essential infiniteness, but coming into manhood must have brought out glories that only manhood could bring out.

J.T. That is right; certain things that God had purposed for man awaited the incarnation. A divine Person only could be great enough to display the things, to bring them forth so they could be seen in their glory.

A.D. Is that what is referred to as the glory which He has won?

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J.T. Quite so; this is one of the glories. If you look at John 17, there are several glories, and of one of them it says, "the glory which thou hast given me I have given them". I think that is sonship, although John does not in his gospel apply that word 'son', or 'sonship', to the saints. Sonship is greater than eternal life. Eternal life in John 17 is said to be given by the Lord to as many as the Father has given Him. Eternal life is what God has purposed for man as meeting death, but sonship is what we are as for God. "Having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us into favour in the Beloved".

A.R. Would it be right to say that in contacting one another in holy greetings and fellowship we are, in principle, participating in life?

J.T. That is the principle of it. And how great and blessed were the intimate relations of the apostles with the Lord! Peter speaks of them as having "eaten and drunk with him after he arose from among the dead". How real that was! Science would say that it is impossible, but it is quite possible. In this sense, what can God not do? So the Lord as risen actually ate and drank with the disciples. Peter brings that forward as a point of testimony. How real His humanity was! In resurrection He was as real a Man as He was before He died; Acts 10:41.

F.S.C. Peter realised the truth when he said, "Thou hast words of life eternal".

J.T. That helps, "To whom shall we go? thou halt words of life eternal". It is 'words' what the Lord said about it; but what did John realise when he lay in His bosom?

A.R. The christian circle is really a sphere of eternal life.

J.T. It is the circulation of it in the saints. The

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Lord looked "around in a circuit at those that were sitting around him", Mark 3:34. We have the idea of a circuit in the heavens, also in the earth, but the real circle is in the saints; the Spirit of God in the saints. It is the circulation of life as we are in touch with one another. That is the basis of the body, that we are members one of another. We have the theory of this, but the actual fact is the thing to get hold of, that the saints are members of one another.

J.T.Jr. The natural is excluded from all that. The Lord says to His mother, "What have I to do with thee, woman?" He excludes mere natural relationship and feelings.

J.T. All this enters into assembly service. It implies the relation in which we come together in assembly when, as there is power, we are outside of the realm of flesh and blood.

A.I. The apostle says, "I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me". What life would that be?

J.T. That is a christian's life in the wilderness. It is not properly eternal life. That is, "I now live in flesh", but life eternal is really a wholly spiritual matter. It is over the Jordan; but the measure in which we enter into it we are affected in our ordinary life of faith down here.

In the end of chapter 1, the system connected with redemption is brought in so as to make the truth possible for us; that is, first the efficacy of the blood of Christ cleansing us from all sin, so we might have part in the great things mentioned, free from the influence of sin. And then the apostle proceeds to speak about the Advocate we have with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous -- showing what we are speaking of is connected with the divine system set up in Christ. The Advocate is above, corresponding with the Spirit here below. The words 'Advocate'

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and 'Comforter' are the same in the original. Thus believers are wonderfully provided for in the system God has established for us; it supports us especially in this great matter of life, that we should enjoy it.

The apostle regards himself as a father and the saints as his children. This shows what a place he had, under God, in the service of the truth. And then he introduces the old commandment and the new commandment which we have already touched on, and from which we have to pass on now to the matter of growth that John here deals with. It also involves his great subject of life.

J.S. This precious life that John speaks of, is continued down here in the saints?

J.T. That is the point; what is true in Him is true in us. But when we come to the family of God, we have first all the saints viewed as children of the apostle. They are called "children of God" in chapter 3, but in chapter 2: 12, they are written to as children; that is, in the sense of all christians having their sins forgiven. But from verse 13 they are viewed in three distinct classes: fathers, young men, and little children. This classification implies growth. Verse 12 is all the saints as on the Lord's day morning in assembly for the breaking of bread. We are all, old and young, on the same level. And then in verse 13, "I write to you, fathers". We come now to the gradation in the family, not the fellowship but the christian family; the fathers first, and then young men, and then little children. I mention all this because it is so essential for young people to begin to look at themselves and say, Is there any growth in me at all? have I made any headway at all since I was converted? That is a question for everybody to ask himself.

A.I. What would be the thought of the fathers?

J.T. "Because ye have known him that is from the beginning". That is what is said to them. And

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it is said to the young men, "Because ye have overcome the wicked one". And the apostle says to the little children, "I write to you, little children, because ye have known the Father". Notice it is not that ye have known Him who is from the beginning, but the Father; that is to say, the young christian has the place of a little child in the family. It is the saints viewed as in graded relations according to growth from verse 13 to the end of verse 27. We are looked at as in what I may call the family in its status down here; not the sons of God in heaven. It is what we are actually here below, and the question is, how real we are, whether we have come into fellowship because others have come in or whether there is any little bit of growth in us.

J.A.P. Is Samuel an illustration of this, in his growth year by year?

J.T. Yes, the time came when Jehovah spoke to him, but in his mother's mind there was the idea of growth in him. She made him "a little coat" every year. Christians ought each to look to himself as to what progress he is making, or if he is making any.

W.R. Is one of the features of a fit state for fellowship that we have a strong judgment about sin which ends in death?

J.T. Just so; the word about the children in verse 12 is that our sins are forgiven for His name's sake. That refers to every one of us. The end of verse 13 is, "I write to you, little children, because ye have known the Father". That means that I have the Spirit. It is by the Spirit I know the Father.

J.T.Jr. Do the affections enter into this -- the children, fathers and young men, all suggestive of affection in movement?

J.T. That is the idea; what a circle of affection it is; the fathers, young men, and little children Active growth and the fruit accompanying it are contemplated.

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A.R. Children are not very long in a natural family before they are saying, Father. Some of our children are in the family a very long time and never say, Father.

A.P.T. Isaac says, "My father!"

J.T. Quite so; the Spirit of God's Son cries, "Abba, Father". The believer by the Spirit of adoption also cries, "Abba Father".

W.F.K. Is this "pride of life" (verse 16) in contrast to real life?

J.T. Quite so. The Father is the antidote to all that in the young men.

The idea in this epistle is that what is in Christ is not growth; it is perfect; that is, there is no development of what is in Christ. It is Christ Himself as the eternal life; there is no development in that. It is what it is; it is perfect there in its fulness. In us there is growth; we grow up to it. But correlatively with that is the thought of sonship which John does not develop. He is developing the public living feature in christianity. There are those who have known Christ from the beginning; they are advanced persons; they are experienced persons. Then there are those who have overcome the wicked one. You can see it; they have an exercise about the world. And then there are little children. You cannot say anything more than that they have known the Father, which implies that they have the Spirit. For we are not taken into account unless we have the Spirit; one is not even one of the little children unless he has the Spirit.

W.R. Why do you think the apostle here addresses the little children in relation to the last hour (verse 18)?

J.T. Antichrists are in mind. They are a danger that besets young people. They are apt to be influenced by notable men; the world today is full of them. The little children are before us specially from verses 18 to 27.

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T.E.H. Do we come under the authority of Christ in receiving eternal life, as we have noted in John 17?

J.T. Just so, "As thou halt given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal", John 17:2. That would include the children here.

A.R. What do you have in mind in relation to chapter 3?

J.T. Well, we have already touched on it, what is to be manifested. It enters into the subject, because it refers to what we shall see when we see Him. What the disciples saw; what was manifested, spoken of in chapter 1, is another thing; it is what the Lord was down here. In this chapter, in keeping with that, we have: "Beloved, now are we children of God". That is a present fact, and what we shall be has not yet been made manifest. "We know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is". This refers to what Christ is now, according to Philippians 3. We shall have bodies like Christ's body of glory. We are awaiting that. And it enters into this great matter of life, what we shall be in the bodies of glory we are to get presently; they will be like Christ's body as it is now -- His "body of glory".

A.B.P. Would that be different from Acts 1? As seen there He was not yet glorified.

J.T. I think there is a difference, only the word 'glorify', as conveying Christ's position at God's right hand, would be official. "His body of glory", contemplated in Philippians 3, would, I believe, be constitutional. The chapter stresses the heavens and the calling on high in this sense. "Our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens" (verse 20). It is characteristically there. As in heaven, we are of heaven; we are constitutionally heavenly, and our bodies will be heavenly. Things will be transformed into conformity to Christ's body of glory.

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John says here, "What we shall be has not yet been manifested". I believe this corresponds with Philippians 3:21.

C.A.M. Would "children of God" in 1 John 3:2 lead into sonship in connection with this manifestation?

J.T. That is what we shall be when we shall see Him. What John alludes to is our glorious state and relation in the future in contrast with our present state and relation. The word 'children' does not run into eternity. Sons are brought to glory. But more than sonship is, I believe, contemplated in this passage. Sonship is manifested.

F.S.C. The name of Christ is not brought into this section; I have often wondered why. Throughout these three verses the names given are the Father and God; the 'him' seems to be Christ.

J.T. It is. The same feature extends back into chapter 2 and indeed appears throughout the epistle. Life being the subject, it would seem that Christ in character was prominently in his mind as the writer, by the Spirit, proceeded in the work given him to do. Thus the pronouns 'he' and 'him' are sometimes used to designate Christ as God, and at other times to designate Him as Man without formal evidence as to which is meant. And sometimes God Himself is designated in the same manner.

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THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST

1 John 2:18 - 27; 1 John 4:1 - 6; 2 John 7

J.T. These scriptures treat of what is against Christ in such intensity as to be named antichrist, a term that is not very often used in Scripture; only, indeed, in John's epistles, bearing on the character of the opposition as against christianity founded in the revelation of God in Christ -- the Father and the Son. There were many antichrists, as John says here, "Even now there have come many antichrists" (verse 18), which would show that the opposition was widespread; and then it was intimated that the special character of the opposition was the denial of Jesus Christ come in flesh. Ultimately, however, the antichrist, as remarked, denies the Father and the Son; that is, he denies christianity.

Then we have the power of antichrist in chapter 4. It is a question of the kind of spirit that had to be discerned; "And this is that power of the antichrist, of which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world" (verse 3). Then again there is deception, "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh -- this is the deceiver and the antichrist", 2 John 7. I thought it would be helpful to all of us to scan this section of Scripture and to see how the evil spoken of is to be met by the unction, as stated, "And ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things" (1 John 2:20), meaning that we are capable of meeting all this opposition and deception as having the Spirit.

A.R.S. The unction from the Holy One would enable us to detect the false teaching of the antichrist.

J.T. Yes; not only his words but the spirit of antichrist which is operating. Chapter 4 expressly

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stresses the side of the spirit that we are to "believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God; and every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that power of the antichrist, of which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world" (verses 1 - 4). The idea of a supreme God is more or less prevalent, even in heathendom. In the time of the French Revolution whilst christianity was being abandoned, certain ones held to the idea of the supreme God, ignoring Christ; and it is current, too -- a distinction being made between the God of christianity and what is regarded as God by certain ones who would set christianity aside. So that in this epistle stress is laid on "Jesus Christ come in flesh". That is, christianity being expressed in a Person: "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life", chapter 1: 1. That is, christianity necessitates humanity -- flesh -- whether in Christ or in us; so that which is true in Him from the beginning becomes true in us. That is the real testimony against this spirit of antichrist who denies Jesus Christ come in flesh.

C.A.M. Do you think an effort of Satan is to impersonalise man's apprehension of God through some kind of a notion, so that we should not have the Person at all?

J.T. Yes; you would not have a tangible Person, so to speak; a Person that could be heard and seen and handled. And that must apply not only to Christ, but to ourselves as expressive of the truth of christianity.

We have the personal idea from the outset. God

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appeared to one and another, taking on personal form; not only a voice, but a form that would be recognised: "the form of Jehovah" (Numbers 12:8), for instance; which would not mean in His abstract form, but that in which He showed Himself to men. So that we have the three men that came to Abraham and other such appearings; whether angels, or Jehovah Himself, it was the idea of personal form. Moses was to see it, and on the mount they saw the God of Israel and ate and drank. He appeared in some personal form, the forecasting of what was coming; that is, the incarnation, which was real form taken in manhood, which is the basis of everything. And that is what the spirit of antichrist and antichrist himself will seek to deny. There were many in the apostle's days, and the opposition had taken a feature from christianity, as indicated in Paul's statement that the "mystery of lawlessness already works", 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

A.N.W. I suppose that explains why John, in setting out the preface of this letter, speaks of what they had seen and handled and heard, substantially.

J.T. That is what I thought. The epistle speaks of what was from the beginning and of what is true in Him and in us; the old commandment and the new commandment. The first is what was true in Christ, or the reality of the incarnation; "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life", chapter 1: 1. And in his gospel John says, "We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1:14. All that is not the form of God, of course; but it is that which was seen substantially in Christ and is brought into christianity by the Spirit in believers.

The warning as to the antichrists is addressed to the little children as compared with the fathers and the

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young men; it is especially directed to the young christians, that they might be on the alert as to anything that they come in contact with that is a denial of Jesus Christ come in flesh; that is, what that order of Man is.

A.R. Why does he say, in verse 19 of chapter 2, "They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have surely remained with us"? Is he speaking about the spirit of antichrist that was there among them?

J.T. Yes; they went out. I suppose apostolic power was too great for them, but then Paul warns of them creeping in. John sees them going out, and Paul sees them creeping in, and Peter, too, contemplates them as come in. They may go out and thus expose themselves. They do not generally, however, renounce christianity. They set themselves apart, Jude says. They may go out from us, but they do not go far away outwardly; if they are inside, it is to corrupt us.

A.R.S. It is much better to see them going out than to see them coming in. Judas went out.

J.T. Yes; if they went out to stay. But Judas came back. That indicates the kind of thing; they come back to do damage. They go out to fit themselves in their own spheres, but they come back. They go out to qualify themselves for the attack.

A.R. So that what they cannot do among the saints, they go outside to develop?

J.T. Judas is the prototype of them all. He knew what was inside; and only persons who are inside can be this; they go outside and imitate Christ so as to come back and attack Him, with lanterns and torches and weapons; John 18:3. Hence, Judas came back also with a kiss. The Lord challenged him: "Judas, deliverest thou up the Son of man with a kiss?" Luke 22:48. They may pretend affection, but they are opposed to Christ.

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F.S.C. Is the man of sin a more developed state of evil?

J.T. Yes; he has a wider scope. He includes the political side. The second beast of Revelation 13, being a false prophet, represents especially the religious feature, but also includes the political, being an object of worship. The first beast is an emperor, but, as remarked, he also has religious distinction, for he "sits down in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God", 2 Thessalonians 2:4. The second beast of Revelation 13 imitates Christ. He has two horns like to a lamb, but speaks like a dragon. He is an imitator; a man of the earth, one who has great influence on it. No doubt the antichrist of John's epistles is to be identified with the false prophet of the book of Revelation.

G.V.D. Would Absalom be an Old Testament type of antichrist?

J.T. Yes; he is a good type of antichrist as he is known today; not the coming antichrist, but his character is seen in many during the present period. Absalom usurped his father's throne; he is more the antichrist of christianity, typifying what is current in christian times, as seen in the second book of Samuel.

A.N.W. Antichrist himself will be a person; is that true?

J.T. These antichrists would be persons, too; only representing certain features of the opposition. The mystery of lawlessness covers things, which, I suppose, would refer largely to the Romish system, which is camouflaged by the professed adoption of christianity in toto. That is, it hides the opposition by taking on christianity in its public terms. It is a mystery.

J.S. Would not that mystery be seen in all the isms?

J.T. Well, more or less. The Lord presents several

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forms of the mystery in parables; in one of them it is likened to a grain of mustard seed which a man took and sowed in his field. It is the least of all seeds, but it becomes a great tree and the birds of the air roost in its branches. That is its developed conspicuousness. I suppose it would take in the whole area of christendom; there is a mystery attached to it.

C.A.M. It seems to do away with true relationship, such as the blessed truth of the Father and the Son, and puts in its place a kind of system. There were no reciprocal relationships of affection at all between Absalom and David, were there?

J.T. No; David denied him the kiss, in connection with what he did first; then, later, he admitted him into family relationship and affection, but that only gave Absalom more scope to carry out his designs against the true king.

A.R. He was brought back into favour by one, we might say, that was in fellowship. Joab was nominally in fellowship.

J.T. Yes. This shows how antichrist has a place in the different religious bodies. There is no power to resist him. He is allowed in by some personal consideration; selfishness at the bottom may open the door to him.

Ques. Is there any special thought in John using the expression "the last hour"?

J.T. I think it alludes to a crisis; a critical time. It involves the whole period of christianity. It is not what we often speak of as the last days; it is the last hour. It alludes to the incoming of Christ and how He is presented here, the Holy Spirit coming down. It formed a crisis in the history of the world, and Satan knew that. Presently he will be cast out of heaven; he knows his time is short. He knows this is the great critical time. Moral questions are being dissolved and settled, because they are settled in Christ Himself. It is a critical time. Hence. John

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says, "Little children, it 'is' the last hour, and, according as ye have heard that antichrist comes, even now there have come many antichrists" (verse 18). So that we are in the battle against him, and the young people are exposed; little children are addressed here. There are "little children" among us here today; they are really in mind, and what they are facing in the schools and in their business lives. The point is, are they able to discern what is antichristian, and how it is to be met?

J.T.Jr. Is the 'us' to be identified today? It says, "They went out from among us". Would that come down to the present time?

J.T. I think so. The 'us' is apostolic, but it involves, in a certain sense, all that are of God. So that he says, in chapter 4: "Ye are of God, children, and have overcome them, because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. They are of the world; for this reason they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God; he that knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us" (verses 5, 6). The last sentence is particularly apostolic. It is very remarkable how, no matter what it is that comes up, whether it be despised people like so-called Mennonites or, in a larger way, Christian Scientists, or even Salvation Army people, the world hears them and recognises them, but those that are really of God are always in reproach and despised in the world.

A.A.T. Is it not so that in the show of christianity today there are modernistic features that answer to this description?

J.T. There are many. That is just what I was thinking. They have come in. They are allowed in for certain considerations, and they develop their doctrines. The most barefaced things are said by persons who have suborned themselves to be independent of the truth. It is for young people to see how

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it is to be met. We have received authoritative teaching such as John speaks of, and we have the Holy Spirit to support us in our stand; that is, christianity is Christ, in character, whether it be in Himself, personally, or in those who have the Spirit.

Ques. Does 'deny' in our passage mean denial of the actual fact, or does it mean undermining of what is recognised?

J.T. Generally, it is the undermining side in the antichrists. As soon as the full thing comes out in the denial of the Father and the Son, the discerning saint will see that it is antichrist. The saints will thus be able to detect him. He will come in presently. It is remarkable that the first beast spoken of in Revelation 13, rises out of the sea. That is as if he had no previous public history at all. Well, later, in chapter 17, he is alluded to again, but as having an ancient history: "... it was, and is not, and shall be present" (verse 8). We have to identify that person; how it is that he comes up out of the sea. Perhaps it will be an obscure man rising into power, and yet he takes on the character of the ancient thing that is spoken of. How he synchronises with the ancient empire is an important consideration. But then, the mystery of iniquity, or lawlessness, already works. The ancient thing is involved in the mystery of iniquity. That is, the old Roman system has been taken on by a certain body, in its essential characteristics, religiously. It has come down to us in all western Europe and its outgoings; its laws and methods and military power are recognised; it is a present thing. It is the fourth empire that is seen at the end. Its last form is the worst; it is diabolical. Religiously and politically it has come down to us. Throughout the four monarchies the political and religious are combined. The religious feature runs alongside the political. The Roman Empire was a religious system as well as a political system. The emperor was the high priest of it, and

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his very title is carried down in the religious Romish system until now. The political system has also come down to us. It was broken up by the Goths, but still it can be traced as existent; it came down to the Reformation, and has been taken on since. Napoleon's Empire was really a continuation of it, and now there is an effort to revive it again, both in political and religious features. So that we are called upon to face all that now, and how are we to face it? How are the children to face it in schools and in offices? How are we to overcome this system that is now here in character, but is soon to appear as a great empire dominating the whole world? These epistles of the apostle John teach us how it is to be overcome in a spiritual sense.

R.W.S. Is the unction one of the means by which it is overcome?

J.T. It is the main thing. It is a remarkable word; it alludes to the Spirit, clearly. But it is more a question, I think, of how we are supported in our minds in dealing with the truth, even though we may be young. This word is not addressed to the fathers, nor even the young men; it is to the little children; and it is a question of how they are to face this matter; to learn that they are really of God, and that they have the Holy Spirit.

R.S. It says that the young men have overcome the wicked one. Is that antichrist?

J.T. Hardly; it is the wicked one himself. Antichrist is not the devil; he is a man, but the devil supports him. Clearly they are men here; it is a question of human persons.

Ques. Would you say the political side in recent times tried to do without the religious, but it did not work? So that at the present time it is revived.

J.T. The political is not self-sufficient; it has not been so from ancient history right down, indeed from Shinar down; the political is allied with the religious

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because man needs religion. It is no question of what religion it is. It must be something that has a spiritual character to support what is political.

A.R. This line of ministry should help us to be heavenly minded, delivering us from what is current. Certain military leaders say that christianity has run its course and has failed; it is now time for something else.

J.T. That is usually what happens. Mohammed was the first claimant to power based on apostasy from christianity. He made much of religion, but apostate religion. The very title of prophet which he carried, shows that his character was religious, but the sword was the conquering power. Well, that is dying out. There are millions of Mohammedans, but they are spiritually dead. They have lost their virus. But now we have something else. The next system which arose was the French. But throughout christendom's history, we have this spiritual mystery of iniquity, active day in and day out, for sixteen or more centuries. The thing is going on ever since apostasy set in, and all these men that have arisen have borrowed from christianity. So that we have to see how we are set; whether we can overcome these things.

J.S. Is the attack on Christ in manhood here?

J.T. It is the undermining of christianity. The antichrist would generally say something that would undermine the truth of Jesus Christ come in flesh; not merely humanity but that kind of humanity; a humanity that is unique, it is Jesus Christ come in flesh.

J.S. The Man set out in the four gospels?

J.T. That is where you get it. The epistles present Him, too.

E.S. Would Bar-jesus be a type of antichrist?

J.T. He is very like the antichrist, because the antichrist will stand related to what is Jewish, rather

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than to public christianity as it is today. So that Bar-jesus is like the antichrist. He is said to have sought to turn aside the deputy from the faith. And Paul says to him, "... son of the devil, enemy of all righteousness", Acts 13:10.

E.S. It says, "But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit ..." (verse 9).

J.T. That is a good passage to bring in, because that is just how it is to be met.

W.B-w. Men tried to meet the antichristian system with Protestantism; by protesting.

J.T. That is right. There was a certain amount of deliverance from it, but very mixed; and the Protestant element has been absorbed, you might say, in the false religious systems.

W.B-w. Protesting did not work; it did not go far enough.

J.T. It is at best only negative. Christianity is not negative; it is positive.

W.B-w. They did not make room for the Spirit, and did not have power to stand against the evil.

C.A.M. Would the word 'unction' imply something inward? In the world of mere profession, people want some sort of outward indication.

J.T. Yes; the word is remarkable; it is not 'anointing', it is 'unction'.

C.A.M. The word 'anointing' seems to involve meeting some evil matter.

J.T. Yes; I think it is invariably a public thing.

W.B-w. Whereas unction is more inward?

J.T. I think so, but bearing on the mind; because the apostle says, "Ye know all things" (verse 20). The Holy Spirit is, of course, referred to. As to the original words for unction and anointing, the former seems to imply a thing applied, and the latter adds the means (rubbing) of applying it.

A.N.W. The anointing, in relation to the Lord, shows itself in Luke 4, when He comes out in public

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testimony. The attack in Psalm 2 is against the Lord and against His anointed. There seems to be no attack against Him until He came out in public testimony.

J.T. The anointing is public. Antichrist is against the anointed One. The word 'unction' relates clearly to the power of knowing; discerning; so that we are not deceived. As soon as we name a thing or person, we know how to act. But we must name it correctly first.

W.R. Was this thing working in Corinth and Galatia? The apostle Paul warned of those who might preach another gospel.

J.T. That would be to bring out that they were justified by the law; to bring in the first man again, and set aside Jesus Christ come in flesh.

W.R. Paul says that Christ would profit them nothing in such a case.

A.A.T. It says that the mystery of lawlessness was working: "For the mystery of lawlessness already works; only there is he who restrains now until he be gone", 2 Thessalonians 2:7. Is that restraining power in persons?

J.T. There are two restraining powers. One is "that which" and the other is "he who". The one is an allusion to ordained governments; the four monarchies, I would say; but especially those that God is with to set aside, or neutralise, the antichristian power. So that it is a question here of certain powers being used. The "he who" would undoubtedly refer to the Spirit of God, but active in the saints. Therefore, our prayer meetings, and indeed all our meetings, bear on this matter; although that may not be recognised openly, by the powers that be, yet the power is there in such meetings which are held in different parts of the world, and I am sure God has ordained that they should exist to check the evil. But He uses other things, too. He uses the powers

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that be, and their armies and navies and the like. So that it is "he who" and "that which" restrains -- the "that which" being clearly something besides the Spirit. So that we are free to pray for the authorities in this regard.

W.B-w. In chapter 2: 22, it says, "Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?" Who is meant by "the liar"? Is it the same person?

J.T. It is the same person. Such a denial is supreme lying. You might say that the whole idea of lying culminates there. The devil is the father of it. But it is working out in men. And then it goes on to say, "He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son". The one who denies is the liar.

W.B-w. That is denying the anointed One?

J.T. Denying what the gospels present to us -- the anointed One -- that is, "that Jesus is the Christ".

W.B-w. In chapter 4 he denies Jesus Christ come in flesh.

J.T. That is another side of the position; but that He, personally, is not the Christ, the anointed One, is part of the terrible lie. People try to make a mere man out of the Lord Jesus. That is what Mohammed did. He did not entirely disregard Christ. He recognised Him in some sense.

Ques. Would the denial of the humanity of Christ also involve denial of the incarnation?

J.T. Just so. It is that kind of humanity, really. The world wants its own humanity. Hence many of the great men in history were deified; as if they suggest the kind of humanity that is acceptable to men, whereas Jesus Christ come in flesh is the only kind of humanity God recognised, as answering to His holy claims.

Rem. The denial of that unique humanity would offset God's way of salvation.

C.A.M. You can talk about God to most men, but

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you cannot talk freely about Jesus Christ come in flesh. Few men will listen to that.

J.T. Such expressions as 'God be with you' and 'God bless you', are common. But who is the God of whom they speak?

F.N.W. Is there a suggestion of this in Daniel? The image which Nebuchadnezzar set up was a combination of power and religion.

J.T. Yes; and he became identified with three witnesses who were maintaining the mind of God. Daniel's prophecy involves very great things. So that the other witnesses knew Daniel; they knew the mind of God through him and they overcame the fire. That typifies a different kind of humanity, because there was not a smell of fire on them. Ordinary humanity, in such circumstances, would smell of fire quickly enough. It is the extraordinariness of the humanity there. It is anticipative of Jesus Christ come in flesh. He did not see corruption. He was unique; distinct. He was liable to nothing that attaches to ordinary humanity. That is the humanity that Satan hates and the antichrist hates; and those who are not true believers do not care for it. They want the humanity that goes to the theatre and the dance-halls, and seeks greatness in this world.

W.R. Was the crucial test put to the disciples in John 6? The humanity of the Lord Jesus is stressed there, and it says, "From that time many of his disciples went away back and walked no more with him" (verse 66). But Peter seems to be moved by the unction; he says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God" (verses 68, 69).

J.T. That is a beautiful finish to that long chapter. It was the humanity of Christ, as set out by Him, against which they murmured. "How can he give us this flesh to eat?" (verse 52). Many of His disciples

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went away back; they could not stand that. If you press people, you will find they do not like that humanity -- Jesus Christ come in flesh. Paul says, "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 3:11.

R.W.S. Then the teaching here is by the Spirit? We do not need that any man should teach us. It cuts at the root of all theology. The believer is shut up to the Holy Spirit and needs nothing else.

J.T. That is it. That does not mean I do not need to go to the meetings, but that the power lies in the Spirit; and how that power works out. It makes us independent of all this antichristian teaching. The youngest believer has the Spirit, and it is for him to make way for Him; develop what is in his own soul -- go on with what God has given him. It includes all the meetings, and the reading of the ministry, the reading of the Scriptures, and prayer. It includes everything that builds you up in Christ.

J.S. Is the unction seen in the man in John 9?

J.T. You can see how it worked out in him, so that he is ready for the opposition when it attacks him. You may say to a young believer. Well, have you confessed the Lord? and he will say, Yes, not long ago. Well, what about breaking bread? Oh, I am not ready for that yet. Such an attitude appears constantly, and it is miserable. I am not ready for it -- keeping the Lord waiting. When the Lord found the man in John 9. He says, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?" (verse 35). The man might have said, I would like to wait and go into the matter; but no, he was ready. "I believe, Lord" (verse 38). It is one of the greatest things to be ready when a divine proposal is made. That would imply that I have moved with the light, so that when this great thing is afforded to me I am ready for it.

J.T.Jr. Should not the young people have the sense of being cast out? Young people should have

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no place in the societies that are in the schools and other such associations. They would be cast out, in that sense, and so they are not fitting into them.

J.T. That is a good way to put it. If a young person takes up that ground in the school, as one who cannot do this or that because it is not right, and he is frowned on or despised, the Lord will see it, and He will find that person, as He did the man in John 9. We want to be findable; to be ready for the Lord when He wants us. He said to the man, "Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God?" He was ready for it.

Well now, these verses before us will bear much investigation; they are all addressed to little children, following on the word to the young men and fathers. It shows that the youth among christians are in the Spirit's mind in this paragraph, which finishes with the word 'yourselves'. That casts you in on the saints. This epistle opens up what the saints are. They are of the same nature as Christ. What is true in Him is true in them. It is that continuance of humanity that has come in in Jesus Christ come in flesh; "... and yourselves the unction which ye have received from him abides in you" (that is another beautiful thought) "and ye have not need that any one should teach you; but as the same unction teaches you as to all things, and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, ye shall abide in him", chapter 2: 27. So that we come to fixity through the teaching of the unction. This is not simply that individual saints have the unction personally, but it is the way it works out amongst the saints. All the teaching elsewhere as regards the Spirit and the assembly must be kept in mind in this.

J.S. The footnote says that the idea of little children has reference to growth.

J.T. Yes; the original word used for little children

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suggests the idea of growth. But then in chapter 4, the apostle does not say 'little children', but "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God" (verse 1). This contemplates what preceded in the epistle. We are tested as to whether we can tell what is of God in persons with whom we come in contact.

G.V.D. Does the man of John 9 fit into chapter 4 of this epistle in that he confesses Jesus Christ is of God? He says, "If this man were not of God he would be able to do nothing" (verse 33).

J.T. Just so.

C.A.M. Bearing in mind the apostle's part in the opening of the epistle, it is beautiful the way he addresses the saints, "Beloved". The great difference between what is genuine and what is spurious, in a world of mere profession, is this personal matter.

J.T. We have to keep the saints in mind. We need them. We have been speaking of the young people; but now it is general, and we are addressed as Beloved; lovable people. John is well fitted to use that word, because he was beloved by the Lord Jesus -- "the disciple whom Jesus loved". And so he says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God". It is not that the spirits speak directly to you. It is more what is exemplified in persons in the gospels. The spirits speak in persons. Some persons have a great deal of religious talk, but if you bring in the humanity of Christ they do not like that. So that it says, "Prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets" (note the word 'prophet' here) "are gone out into the world". The world has become christianised by this sort of thing. "Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God" (verse 2). That is not simply by form of words, but by the way he speaks; the way he puts thoughts together, you can see he recognises Jesus

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Christ come in flesh, and you come to see he is a real christian.

A.N.W. This "beloved" is addressed to the whole family. It includes the fathers, young men and little children.

J.T. I would think so. In chapter 3 we have, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God" (verse 1). "Children of God" implies the full family status.

R.W.S. Do you believe that persons today in so-called christian countries have these evil spirits just as they did when the Lord Jesus was here in the days of His flesh?

J.T. Demoniacal possession of persons, as seen in the New Testament, no doubt exists in heathen countries, but general conditions in christendom hinder gross manifestations of it -- at least as far as can be observed. The enemy works in methods that would find general current acceptance and hence we have what is more decent and refined; more spiritual efforts are in evidence. Persons possessed by demons, marked by gross physical manifestations, would not serve Satan's purposes as spirits working in false prophets and imitating, for wicked purposes, what is of the Spirit of God. These are contemplated in John's epistles.

A.R. How do you work out the fact that in John's epistles there are but two families? Persons are either children of God or children of the devil. He says that in chapter 3: "In this are manifest the children of God and the children of the devil" (verse 10). With such a variety of persons around us, is it right to say that they are either one thing or the other?

J.T. Abstractly that is so, only there are modifications, because of the restraining effect of the light of the gospel professedly owned generally. We cannot classify professors of christianity as children of the devil. Although many are not born again, Satan's

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work in them is modified by what they hold as doctrine. They are usually very shallow, and have very little thought about anything religious, but if they are pressed to the wall you will find that their real state of opposition to Christ will come out -- devilish traits. But the characteristic children of the devil are persons that are active in saying devilish things; like Bar-jesus. Paul says, "son of the devil", Acts 13:10. He is one of the best illustrations. The Lord said to the Jews when they were openly opposed to Him, "Ye are of the devil, as your father", John 8:44. That is, I think, the guide for us when we come to name things. I would not say of an ordinary man who is unconverted, that he is a child of the devil. But as the great general apostasy becomes effective, the position will be different. "The strong delusion" sent by God will be effective, the man of sin being in control, demoniacal power and possession of men will be prevalent. The continuance of the Holy Spirit here in the assembly has an immense effect in checking Satan's work.

J.S. Would the statement "Many false prophets are gone out into the world", contemplate christendom as it is today?

J.T. It contemplates the way christendom has developed, because persons have taken on things which pertain to christianity. But then, it is more than that. Mohammed said he was a prophet, as if he were from God, like Balaam; persons take up a position of teaching, introducing something of their own. John's epistles have this character of evil in mind.

R.S. Would it be like the word in 2 Timothy 3, "Now in the same manner in which Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, thus these also withstand the truth; men corrupted in mind, found worthless as regards the faith"?

J.T. Just so; their names are given there; it is

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just what we have been saying. They represent a kind of opposition that has come down to us over a period of centuries. Their names are not given in Exodus. It is a remarkable thing that they had been carried down to Paul's time. And so it is that Paul can name the opposition to Moses in Egypt. And it is with us in our day.

J.S. Would king Saul prefigure the antichrist?

J.T. Absalom is more that, because Saul was really anointed of God. He would be an opposer in a different way. I think Absalom, acting in David's time, is a type of antichrist, or antichristian principles, during the history of the assembly. Antichrists are not anointed by God; they develop from the natural man; the man of the earth.

C.A.M. The Lord used the expression, "Ye are of the devil, as your father". They developed, but their origin was clear.

J.T. The evil thing is carried down; it is said that the devil sins from the beginning. Whatever the opposition the saints have to do with, is not new. There is nothing new, really, in that sense. It is all carried down. So that if you want to see evil at its source, you must go back to the devil. The devil sins from the beginning; the serpent of brass represents that; it is evil dealt with in its source. As regards evil principles coming down, the old empire that has come down to us is one example. It exists and will be here presently, literally and formally, in its worst features, even as Jannes and Jambres are here. They have come down. The thing they represent is here; their names are given only by Paul.

C.A.M. That helps; would you go as far as to say that a person is born of the evil one somewhat as one becomes born of God? In presenting the favour of God towards men, you take the ground that all are responsible to God, but the devil appeared as a rival.

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J.T. He gets in; and we are concerned as to how he got in. The important thing now is to keep him out. We see, in some, how he gets in; but he goes out, too, in some cases. That is the comforting thing. You cannot always say that a person who is under the direct power of evil is a child of the devil, because you get persons -- Mary Magdalene, for instance -- out of whom there went seven devils. How they got in is not said, but that they went out shows that the position was rendered untenable. If you get a person who has come under Satan's influence, back to the light he had, or get the light of God into his soul, then the position is untenable to evil. That is an important point as regards devilish influence. But Bar-jesus and the Jews in John 8, who were called children of the devil, are true examples.

C.A.M. So that the expression "son of perdition" would relate to a final condition or state?

J.T. Quite so; showing what kind of man Judas was. What opportunities for blessing he had! The opportunity was there all the time he was in company with the Lord. But he is called the son of perdition.

A.R. I think your reference to Numbers 21 is very helpful. Satan did not enter into the children of Israel like he did with Judas. The serpents bit them. They came under satanic influence.

J.T. That is it. The serpents were biting them, but the serpent of brass lifted up was the meeting of the thing at its source. So that he who looked lived. It is a question of whether I can look at that serpent.

J.S. Tracing false religion back to its source would bring us back to Satan?

J.T. Yes; but religion as James speaks of it, is good.

F.N.W. Is there a difference between Jesus Christ come in flesh and coming in flesh?

J.T. The come is an actual fact, but coming is the form of it. Coming in flesh implies the activities involved.

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The second epistle of John confirms what we are saying, but it is remarkable that it is addressed to a lady, as it says, "The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not I only but also all who have known the truth, for the truth's sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity. Grace shall be with you, mercy, peace from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love" (verses 1 - 3). You will notice how John brings in the economy into which divine Persons have come. This sister was coming into the good of it. Then he says, "I rejoiced greatly that I have found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received commandment from the Father. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as writing to thee a new commandment, but that which we have had from the beginning, that we should love one another. And this is love, that we should walk according to his commandments. This is the commandment, according as ye have heard from the beginning, that ye might walk in it. For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh -- this is the deceiver and the antichrist" (verses 4 - 7). There he is viewed as active; it is not a static position; it is not simply a person sitting down; it is his action. I think John's gospel has that in mind. He presents the Lord as walking; John the baptist saw Him walking, coming to him, and he named Him the Lamb of God: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world", chapter 1: 29. There is something to impress one in the manner or gait of the Person. That is, He is coming to die -- a most wonderful fact to dwell upon. The movements of such a Person coming to die are most affecting. He talked about those movements on the mount with Moses and Elias. So that John sees the Lord walking; it does not say where He was going, but as He walked. John said, "Behold the

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Lamb of God". So the lady mentioned in this epistle, no doubt represents the idea of the assembly. The assembly is charmed with the movements of Christ, as the Song of Songs suggests. How charmed the feminine side is with the movements of Christ! That is, you are drawn to Him like the woman of Luke 7. I think His feet are directly mentioned seven times there -- the feet of Jesus. She is attracted by those feet. It is the incoming of Christ; those feet brought Him to the woman.

John speaks of the elect lady with great respect. She was a woman he loved in truth. He had the Lord's own mother in his house and he learned how to love a woman like that in truth -- in that relation -- with infinite purity. Sisters and brothers, "with all purity", should love one another. This short epistle is to be noted in that connection. Then, as we have noted, it says, "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, they who do not confess Jesus Christ coming in flesh -- this is the deceiver and the antichrist". That opens up what the foolish woman in Proverbs is; and the man who speaks froward things. It is the humanity that makes up the world; it is not Jesus Christ come in flesh. It makes room for the deceiver and the antichrist; and there are many.

C.A.M. The fact that the elect lady is brought in, shows that there is a wonderful triumph over the power of the enemy, for Satan is especially set against the glories of femininity because of the glories of the assembly. That is where we see true femininity.

J.T. We see how Satan deceived Eve, and of course the assembly has been damaged similarly, but John sees her -- unblemished: "Coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", Revelation 21:2.

W.B-w. Is that why he warns this lady not to receive the deceivers into her house?

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J.T. Quite so; because the feminine side is peculiarly exposed to such influence. It represents a feature of humanity; "male and female created he them". The feminine side is exposed to evil influence more so than the male, and that is why Satan selected that side of humanity at the outset, to deceive it. And so here, the word 'deceiver' is used.

W.B-w. False prophets are referred to as having gone out from us, but here it is deceivers. Is there a difference?

J.T. It fits in with the feminine side; so that he says, "See to yourselves, that we may not lose what we have wrought, but may receive full wages. Whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine, he has both the Father and the Son. If any one come to you and bring not this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, and greet him not; for he who greets him partakes in his wicked works" (verses 8 - 11). I think that is all very instructive as to the assembly, because it underlies this epistle, addressed to the elect lady, and pointing out the power of deceiving influence. So that we are not to allow persons into our houses if they do not bring the doctrine of Christ. We are not even to greet one of them, "for he who greets him partakes in his wicked works".

C.A.M. This matter of deceiving is carried right down from Genesis.

J.T. That is what I was thinking: "But I fear lest by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craft, so your thoughts should be corrupted from simplicity as to the Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:3.

W.B-w. The third epistle is to the beloved Gaius, "whom I love in truth". We can receive him into the house. He was Paul's host. The second epistle refers to those whom we cannot receive, but the third epistle would show whom we can receive.

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J.T. It is a great general advantage to the assembly and to him who is marked by it, to show hospitality. But the right kind of people should ever be in mind. They should abide in the doctrine of Christ and bring it.

J.T.Jr. I suppose that would be seen in Lydia on the one hand, but at the same time there is a female slave; Satan was acting in that kind of woman.

J.T. Quite so.

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FAITH, PIETY AND JOY IN THE CHRISTIAN HOUSEHOLD

John 4:46 - 54; Acts 10:1 - 4; Acts 16:30 - 34

J.T. These scriptures are proposed because the thought of the believer's house occurs in each of them. It is intended that we should see some special feature in each. In the first passage we are told that the courtier believed and his whole house; as if the house is viewed as believing by itself, although in relation to him. In the second passage we have the idea of the fear of God in Cornelius with all his house; and in the third passage there is rejoicing -- householdly. It is hoped that we shall see features working out from these thoughts that will be especially helpful here at the present time. The courtier serves to bring out accuracy of thought; he is able to carry the Lord's word in his mind according to the time it was spoken and to compare it with the time that healing took place. We are apt to be very loose in dealing with our household affairs, dealing with generalities, whereas this man would teach us, by example, to deal accurately with detail as well as in generality. This miracle is linked up with what happened in Cana of Galilee, as recorded in chapter 2: "He came therefore again to Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine" (verse 46). The work of God is one, with many features; many persons are involved, but the work is one. So that there is a link here between this miracle, or sign, and that of Cana in chapter 2. The Lord was in Cana, and the courtier came there, but the actual subject of the work of the sign was in Capernaum. The power is in Cana, operating at a distance, reminding us that the work of God is not affected by distance; distance need not interfere. This enables us to think of the

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work of God in all parts, and how quickly things can happen. And then, the certain time of the happening is observed.

E.McK. Is it important that the thought of the house comes in so early in this gospel, and the son sick in it? Sonship is brought in.

J.T. Quite so; it is serious. We get cases of sick daughters, too, but this is a son -- the Holy Spirit calls him a son in recording the incident. The courtier went to Jesus and asked Him to come down and heal his son. That is the statement of the fact, but the actual word the courtier used is 'child'. He speaks of his child, but the Lord, in reply, says 'son'. So that the writer uses the word 'son' in his narrative and the Lord uses the same word. Then the courtier carries the Lord's actual words down to Capernaum, connecting them with the hour when the healing took place. All this brings out that the sign involved elevation in the house; that is, from mere childship to sonship. The Lord had that in His mind in the sign. It is for us. John deals with signs. He tells us in chapter 20 that Jesus did many other signs but these were written that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing we might have life in His name. But if we are to be affected by the signs we must be accurate and pay attention to the words employed in relation to them.

R.W.S. Are the words of the Lord Jesus, in verse 48, to be taken as a rebuke to the courtier? He says, "Unless ye see signs and wonders ye will not believe".

J.T. Well, I think that is a rebuke to more than the courtier. He says, "Ye". It is something like the case when the Lord came down from the mount of Transfiguration and a man brought his lunatic child and told the Lord about him, saying, "I brought him to thy disciples, and they were not able to heal him". The Lord said, at that time, "O unbelieving

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and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you?" Matthew 17:17. Evidently He included the disciples. It is a humbling thing that the saints should be included with the unbelieving in a rebuke.

Rem. It says that this man believed the word that Jesus said to him.

J.T. Yes; he soon disengaged himself from any association with unbelievers. And it is for us to separate ourselves from any that might be under such reproach, by showing that we have faith which lifts us out of the realm of this world.

Rem. Isaiah says, "I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips". But he had his lips cleansed with a live coal and could then say, "Here am I; send me".

J.T. Yes, he disengaged himself from a general unclean condition. He was a man of unclean lips, and dwelt among a people of unclean lips, but he soon separated himself from all that; he had his lips cleansed by the coal taken from the altar and was thus ready to be sent.

A.R. Would you say something more about the Lord healing the nobleman's son in Capernaum? There is virtue in the word of the Lord, even though the son was a long distance off.

J.T. That is the fact. It shows the nature of the work of God, and really enters into the formation of the whole organism in which God is working. The whole area of the earth is involved, but it is one work. Something of this kind may transpire in China, in India, in South Africa, in the Argentine, or in New Zealand; distance does not affect the work which God is carrying on. It goes on extensively. The courtier is taken up to bring out the idea of accuracy in linking these things together, not only geographically, but in the matter of time. Time enters into it.

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God Himself, in creating material things, refers to the use of time. And this man is affected by the idea of time. John's gospel begins with the idea of time: "In the beginning was the Word". It presents to us the greatest possible facts; that the Word was there, and that He was there to operate according to the name He bore. That is, He is called the Word and He was operating in time in relation to the word of God.

A.R. Is the healing of the centurion's servant, in the house, a similar incident? He said to the Lord, "Say by a word and my servant shall be healed ... . And they who had been sent returning to the house found the bondman, who was ill, in good health", Luke 7:7 - 10.

J.T. He said to the Lord, in effect. You do not need to come where he is. This brings out the intelligence of the man; and he adds, "I also am a man placed under authority". He makes the position clearer "I say to this one, Go, and he goes ...". So he says to the Lord, in principle, You can do that. We may add that the Lord can do that any time and anywhere. The power may be here and the subject of the power may be any distance away. However, time is linked up with it. But while God is stressing that His work involves time, results, irrespective of distance, may be instantaneous. I do not believe that in eternity there will be any more working; it is while we are in time that things are done.

C.A.M. Would you say that the way time is regarded in John's gospel is very special, because eternity is in view?

J.T. Well, if the work must go on in eternity, then eternity is not a finished matter. Some think we continue to grow in eternity, and if we do, what would be the result? Think of the immensity of what persons would become if they kept on growing eternally! whereas God's "end" -- 1 Corinthians 15:24

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contemplates completeness, perfection. In it He is all in all.

C.A.M. That is what seems to make time so remarkable in the way it is considered in John's writings, which link with eternity. They bring what is infinite from eternity into time and lead from time into eternity.

J.T. Yes; "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear". Hebrews 11:3. The thought of creation goes back into infinity. Evolution is simply a lie because, in biology at least, it contemplates that the being or thing is of itself; that is, it is not created, but evolved, which is not scriptural at all. As we have noted, Hebrews 11:3 states that that which is seen should not take its origin from things which appear. The link between the finite and the infinite, is the word of God. We apprehend it by faith. Besides, what Hebrews teaches is abundantly confirmed throughout Scripture, especially in John 1 and Colossians 1. The former scripture states that all things received being through Him, the Word, and without Him not one thing received being which has received being.

R.W.S. Is the allusion to the hour indicative of how much God can do in a short space of time?

J.T. Well, that brings in the idea of measure. God would have us to understand things in accuracy and detail as well as in generality. So He is called the God of measure -- a remarkable thing! Reference is made in Scripture to "a moment of time" and "the twinkling of an eye". One of the greatest things that can happen to us will happen in the twinkling of an eye. That is, in the minutest part of time God will change us from what we are now to our eternal condition.

F.N.W. Does the time element come into chapter 2

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where it says that the Lord abode with the disciples in Capernaum not many days? Would the Lord have the thought of time in His mind?

J.T. Yes. It says, "After this he descended to Capernaum, he and his mother and his brethren and his disciples; and there they abode not many days" (verse 12). That would be to bring out that He was recognising His mother and His brethren, and the disciples with them. His mother would be adjusted or He would not have gone down with her; but He did not stay long. It is just provisional to bring out that He had regard for His mother and brethren. But the disciples were the basis of what He was going on with. "His disciples believed on him", He having manifested His glory. This was of prime importance.

Rem. He is pre-eminent now, whereas at the marriage feast His mother had been conspicuous.

J.T. Yes. She is adjusted and the Lord recognises the natural relationships. John is bringing out the spiritual, but at the same time nothing that is legitimate is ignored.

S.F. Is there a slight on Judaea here? "This second sign again did Jesus, being come out of Judaea into Galilee".

J.T. It would seem to be so, because we are told in chapter 2, after the sign of Cana, when He had returned to Jerusalem, that many believed on His name, beholding the signs, but He did not trust Himself to them. They were only affected by the signs. But what underlies the signs is in mind. It is that believing, we might have life in His name.

A.R. Perhaps there is a tendency with us to be marked by generalities, whereas this idea of "Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him", really enters in detail into ministry. Ministry is given at a given time at a given place. It is put down on record, is it not?

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J.T. It is on record in heaven; that is the comfort we have. But here is a man who, evidently, already believes; John is dealing with the first indication of faith, and the intensification of that. He is telling us that believing is a thing that progresses in time. It will not be so in eternity, for faith will cease. But it is a thing that progresses. So, he believed in Cana, but when he met his servants and learned what had happened and inquired as regards the hour, "he believed, himself and his whole house". It is not 'with' his whole house. He believed, himself and his whole house. That is, the and makes it two things -- his believing, and his house believing.

J.T.Jr. Is it moral power in the house that would influence it rightly?

J.T. Yes, so much so that the family, as a group, would discuss the case. The father's report of what had happened would, in itself, be a marvellous thing, but it is as if they talked over it by themselves; not only to depend upon the head, but think about what the head says, and talk about it by themselves, and come to the truth by themselves. If they do that they can carry on consistently when the head is not there.

J.T.Jr. The courtier would be a very distinguished person, but his piety would enter into what his household was. His public prominence would not help there; it is what he was morally that would sway his house.

J.T. Yes. You may be sure that there had been much social life in a house like this; tea parties and card parties and the like. So that it is remarkable that the conjunction 'and' is used. It is "and his whole house", as if they took account of what the father had said. The mother would say to her children, and to the boy especially -- the son who was raised up: Look at what has happened, and consider what your father has said about it; what Jesus said

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to your father and how it happened that when He said to your father. Thy son lives, that you were healed that very instant. The son recovered at once. The servants were in the matter too. They said that the fever left him. It was a finished matter in that instant. How would the family take account of this? The other children in the household would say, That is a wonderful thing! So that the house is moving by itself; each one is moving spiritually. That is, the head and the house move on together, but with individual exercises. They all believed.

Ques. What was the cause of the dying condition?

J.T. The first thing we are told is that he was sick, and then the courtier "having heard that Jesus had come out of Judaea into Galilee, went to him and asked him that he would come down and heal his son". It does not say what the disease was, but that he was about to die. "Jesus therefore said to him, Unless ye see signs and wonders ye will not believe". That is what came out in chapter 2. Many believed because of the signs. But the Lord is saying here that we should be able to believe without a sign. The courtier does not turn away. He believed, evidently, at least in principle. He says, "Sir, come down ere my child die". But he evidently thought that the Lord had to go where the child was. That is where he needed help -- that the Lord did not need to do that. That, I think, is basic in regard to the ministry. "Jesus says to him, Go, thy son lives". It was instantaneous: "And the man believed the word which Jesus said to him, and went his way". And then his servants met him and they said to him. Thy child lives. "He inquired therefore from them the hour at which he got better". That is what I think is one of the most remarkable things, that he should stop to find out the hour -- what was the exact hour of the day. I suppose he would go by the sundial. He would not have a watch, but he would remember

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the hour. And the servants remembered the hour when the child got better. How were they so accurate? They say, The seventh hour. And he says, That is exactly the same hour in which the Lord Jesus said, "Thy son lives". He repeated the Lord's words. He used the word 'son'. Then, after the hour is determined, it is said, "He believed, himself and his whole house". He believed, himself; that is, in his own consciousness; he believed himself, and then his whole house. So that it is a finished matter now.

Ques. You were speaking of the work of God going on in different places at the same time. Was God working in the house, among the various individuals, even while the father was at a distance?

J.T. It is one work, but the power was in the Lord in Cana and the subject of it was in Capernaum.

A.R. Are you suggesting the truth of the body in relation to ministry? So that whether ministry be given in New Zealand or in the British Isles, or elsewhere, we could be affected by it here?

J.T. Surely. The more spiritual we are, the more conscious we are of what is going on.

Ques. Does obedience enter into this case? The man was blessed, and his house was blessed with him. But it says, "The man believed the word which Jesus said to him, and went his way".

J.T. I think that those of us who have households should see that the household can function by itself if the head is absent. The work of God evidently went on in the courtier's whole house. That is what is stated. There is a man and his family; can the wife and children function in faith if he is not there? It is very evident that exercise developed in them as a separate entity; not detached from him, exactly, but still, the end shows it was not all one idea. It was himself, and his whole house. They believed!

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F.S.C. Did he not believe without a sign? He had not seen a sign.

J.T. That is just the point. He had faith. The Lord had said, "Unless ye see signs and wonders ye will not believe". But he did believe without seeing signs. What the Lord said as to signs and wonders had a general bearing.

Rem. There seems to be obedience with the servants, or bondmen as they are called in the footnote.

J.T. The bondmen are undoubtedly part of the courtier's house. His whole house believed.

C.A.M. Do you think the Lord allows crises to come householdly? It must be a very acute thing; the threatening presence of death and the extremity of it all. And do you not think that through these conditions there is developed the desire for life and sonship?

J.T. Yes; the exercise had gone on in the house in Capernaum while the head was away. They had their own part in it separately. This is a very important matter, because it shows that the house can function when the head is not present, if there is faith. The 'and' shows that the house functioned, or at least had faith apart from the faith of the head. There is a distinction between what happened in the courtier and what happened in the household.

E.McK. It is remarkable that household testings serve God's wonderful ends. We see it also in the household at Bethany in chapter 11.

J.T. It is not accidental that there was distance; it surely is to bring out something of the mystery of spirituality in households where the mother and the children function in the house, not as disregarding the head, but filling out the position in his absence. We learn from Proverbs 31 how the woman of worth functioned in a most remarkable way in the absence of her husband.

R.S. When Gehazi asked the Shunammite woman,

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Is it well with thee? Is it well with the child? she said, It is well. She had faith, but Elisha had to go and identify himself with the child. He could not operate from a distance.

J.T. Yes; that shows the necessity for reading Scripture contextually. In that case the prophet had to go. He thought that his staff would do the work but it would not; but the Lord did not have to go. If there is a difficulty in this city, one would have to be here to form a right judgment so as to help. He must be in the place where the difficulty is to get the local feeling and enter into the thing with the saints, to be of help, but not so with the Lord. In our chapter we are considering what happened when the father was away. Of course, the father would not be always away, but ordinarily a brother must be away a considerable part of the time and it is a question whether the house can function without him. Evidently this house did.

T.N.W. They would be good material for the local assembly and would be able to stand in the face of deflection later.

J.T. Just so; some children think they do stand without their parents, and it often turns out that they do not, because believing parents help them. But this would lay the basis in the household for standing on its own feet, which I think is the point in the passage.

Ques. Would you connect the servants with the house or would they be considered by themselves?

J.T. In our passage they would probably be classified as of the house. Abraham circumcised all that were in his house; not only Ishmael, but all the servants. I think that in those days they would be so regarded, but not so now; helpers in the house are not ordinarily regarded as part of the household.

S.F. Would you link this with sonship as in Galatians?

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J.T. John does not develop sonship in the saints; in fact he does not call a christian, or a believer, a son, except in Revelation 21; that is the only place in his writings where you get the term 'sons' applied to christians. He deals with children, but the basis of sonship is in the teaching. Sonship is certainly implied in chapter 20 of this gospel, but he deals more with children. In our chapter, I think the basic thought of sonship is in mind for instead of using the word 'child', the Lord uses the word 'son'. And John, the narrator of the incident, uses the word 'son', whereas the man uses the word 'child'. Then, when he quotes what the Lord said, the courtier uses the word 'son'; so that I think we have the suggestion that this boy, however young, was a son.

J.T.Jr. Faith was operating in the father while away from home; and God was working in the home while he was away, so that the faith in the father was in keeping with what was happening in the house. It all went on concurrently.

J.T. That is the point, and I think it all centres in the word 'hour'. He is occupied with the hour when the Lord spoke the word; and they had the hour in their minds when the healing happened; so that the whole thing is one.

C.A.M. I suppose the features seen in these three households of which we have read are necessary for the maintenance of the service of God in the house of God.

J.T. There is nothing that the Lord is stressing more than this matter of the household and how faith operates in these three instances; first, faith in the courtier believing; and then secondly, in Cornelius, the fear of God; and thirdly, with the jailer, rejoicing. And in each case the house is brought into it.

Rem. The second scripture seems to suggest piety, does it not? There is an atmosphere of piety in the house of Cornelius, and he works it out by prayer and supplication.

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J.T. That is how you come into line for a revelation; light of a special character. His piety is stressed. We are told that, as to calling, he was a centurion, an officer in the Roman army, and his band is called Italic, which evidently was notable. It shows that the Spirit of God was not slighting him, nor his dignity as a military man, but then the Spirit says that he was pious and feared God with all his house. The word 'pious' usually involves the fear of God, but it is evidently intended to stress the fact that he did fear God. He would fear the emperor, of course, and normally he would be very concerned lest anything might displease the emperor. But he feared God; that is the point. He was pious, fearing God with all his house. I think the word 'with' would mean that the bearing of his piety was toward his house. But he had a pious soldier on his staff, according to verse 7: "And ... having called two of his household and a pious soldier of those who were constantly with him". Piety was there, even in the soldiers who attended upon him, so that the 'with' would mean that the power of his piety was towards his house. Moreover, it is said that he gave much alms to the people, and supplicated God continually. Then it says that he "saw plainly in a vision, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming unto him, and saying to him, Cornelius. But he, having fixed his eyes upon him, and become full of fear, said, What is it, Lord? And he said to him, Thy prayers and thine alms have gone up for a memorial before God", Acts 10:3, 4. That is the state of the man and the order of his house. His piety is the ground on which God can speak to him in this way. This is another phase of the household; that we can look for help from God if we wish to help the saints. If our houses are right, we get light from God in that relation.

Rem. He is not addressed by any title he may

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have had in the army, but in the familiar way that God might use with any of us.

J.T. Quite so; Cornelius, the name by which he is known to us.

J.F. Would it not be unusual to find a pious soldier?

J.T. Well, that may be so, ordinarily. There probably was not much piety in the Roman army. But he had a pious soldier among those who were constantly with him. That would help him in his piety, as well as show the man that Cornelius was and the effect he would have on those around him.

R.W.S. Would he have been affected, possibly, by some godly Jew preaching from the Old Testament?

J.T. Undoubtedly he was. I would classify him as a proselyte to the truth known in Judaism. But then the point is that he had the qualities that really enter into christianity, and God honoured him. If I want to help the saints I must see to my house; I must see that I am pious. God is straitened if He is required to use a man whose house is not in order. I think that is the point here.

F.N.W. Would the instruction in Deuteronomy 6 indicate what shines in each of these three cases that you are taking up today? It says, "And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart; and thou shalt impress them on thy sons, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thy house, and when thou goest on the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign on thy hand, and they shall be for frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and upon thy gates" (verses 6 - 9). Should not the head of the house -- the man himself -- be concerned that he is right with God, and his house will follow in order?

J.T. That is a very important matter. That type helps. So that we see how all this wonderful truth of

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Acts 10, involving the admission of the gentiles into christianity, is based on this man's state and the state of his house. God sees to it that this is recorded before we get the results.

Ques. So would you say that the christian's household should be marked by prayer? It speaks of this man supplicating God continually.

J.T. Yes; and giving alms, too. That is, you do not let those who may have some means carry the whole burden. Give what you can. It does not say how much he gave, although it says he gave much. But the widow gave much, too, although it was only two mites. It is a question of how heaven reckons; and God measures that, too. If a brother has ministered, and has gift, it is right that the brethren support him in his service. This chapter would teach us that if we get light we will be marked by these features: prayer, piety and almsgiving. We should not forget the latter.

C.A.M. The giving comes first. It says that he was "giving much alms to the people, and supplicating God continually". So that my prayer would not amount to much if giving were neglected.

J.T. That is the lesson to be learned; how heaven takes account of almsgiving. I think it is a very important matter. With such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Ques. Would Matthew 17 show that, in one sense, the Lord does not need our money? The Lord told Peter to go and take the money out of the mouth of the first fish that came up, in order to pay the taxes. But Luke 21 seems to show the other side of the truth, that the widow gave all her living.

J.T. The Lord saw how they cast into the treasury; and we must remember that there is a treasury. In Matthew 17 it was but one item -- a question of meeting the tax. But the treasury is a wider thought and represents the bounty that is available to be

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disbursed with spiritual ability and priestly feelings.

R.W.S. Did you say that the thought in the verse: "fearing God with all his house", suggests that the direction of Cornelius' piety was towards his house?

J.T. That is the thought. It is not so definite as John 4. The household is not fearing by itself. He feared God with all his house. You can understand that all might not be thoroughly in it, but it is the bearing of his attitude in the house, which would influence the children in time. God will use it, too.

J.S. If the head of the house is not a christian, could a believing member of the family take this on?

J.T. That would be a very awkward situation; God alone can make a way out. That would be abnormal, but this is a pious household, and the head of it is exercising his God-given place; even before he was a christian he was head. Abstractly, the truth of headship means that every man is taken up in a provisional way as being head of his house. But if he is unconverted and some of the children, or his wife, are converted, it makes a very awkward and difficult situation, but the Lord will support the principle of headship.

E.McK. They would never take the place of the head.

J.T. Not family-wise. If he would not give thanks to God at meals, for instance, they could take that over, if he were willing that they should do it.

W.M. Would power in the house be a matter of influence? It speaks, in 1 Corinthians 7, of a woman having an unbelieving husband who may be saved by her faithfulness. Does that suggest influence?

J.T. Undoubtedly. "What knowest thou, O wife, if thou shalt save thy husband?"That certainly

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involves her manner of life; it is not merely an answer to her prayers; it says, "... if thou shalt save thy husband?"

W.M. Does Cornelius suggest a man who has a circle that he influences?

J.T. That is very clear. No doubt the pious soldier would owe his piety to Cornelius, the official in whose company he was. This matter of influence is a very great one and enters into headship in all its functions.

Ques. Would not 1 Corinthians 7 show that we can go a long way to retain an unsympathetic person that he might get the blessing, especially when the relationship of husband and wife is involved, because of the household idea?

J.T. Yes; God honours that; it is the Spirit of Christ. He sees how difficult it is to do what is to be done, but He comes in in time, I am certain.

A.R. Such households referred to in 1 Corinthians do not give licence to mixed marriages, do they?

J.T. No; marriage is to be "in the Lord". Anything outside of that is giving place to the devil.

Now, in moving on to the next passage, we have the thought of joy in the head of the house. It says, "And having brought them into his house he laid the table for them, and rejoiced with all his house, having believed in God" (verse 34). It is a further thought; belief was there, but joy is the next thing, and it is important, for we are not to be doleful or irritable in the house, but rejoicing. A good condition in the house requires joy in the head. The Lord Jesus brought in joy in a most striking way in all His relations with His disciples. At the most critical and distressing moment in His service He rejoiced in spirit and praised His Father. That is a very important side in our morning household readings, to have joy in singing and praise. It tends to holy joy and buoyancy.

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Rem. Chapter 61 of Isaiah speaks of "the oil of joy instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of the spirit of heaviness". The Lord Jesus turned the circumstances; where there was the spirit of heaviness, He brought in a garment of praise.

R.W.S. Children might say, Why can we not have a radio? Why can we not be like other people's children? Why can we not have books that others have and do what other people do? But those things cannot bring joy like this.

J.T. They bring corruption, the very contrast to what we are talking about -- the garment of praise; praise to God. Whosoever offers praise, God says, glorifies Me. And so, the jailer is a changed man; the Spirit of God stresses that as to him. He had said, "What must I do that I may be saved?" And Paul and Silas said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house". It is remarkable that not only Paul said that, but both of them said it. It is the testimony of two men "Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. And they spoke to him the word of the Lord, with all that were in his house". That is, I would say, they had a sort of Bible reading in the man's house, as we do when we have baptisms. He would say, Clear out the room and get my wife and all the children in, and the servants, too, I suppose, and the apostle and Silas would speak to him the word of the Lord. It would be the word of the Lord in relation to the house, clearly. In chapter 19 the word of the Lord is militant in the overthrow of witchcraft. It says that with might it increased and prevailed. But here it is in relation to the household. They spoke to him the word of the Lord, with all who were in his house. And then it says, "And he took them the same hour of the night and washed them from their stripes; and was baptised, he and all his straightway. And having brought them into

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his house he laid the table for them". Now it is a time for joy, the meal time, and the jailer has power to rejoice. It would look as if the Spirit of God is showing us the effect of the gospel in its simplicity and power in this man.

Rem. Where the authority of the word of the Lord is not accepted in the household there cannot be any true joy or belief in God.

J.T. Quite so. I thought these three features of the truth would help us all; the thought of believing, as confirmed: the courtier in Cana of Galilee had faith but it was confirmed in Capernaum where the actual healing took place, so that he believed, himself and his whole house. That is the first thing; it is the prominent idea, confirming faith. There is a peculiar certainty in it. And the son was there in the house. Then, secondly, the fear of God and what accompanies it, namely, almsgiving and prayer; piety marking the surroundings, too, as seen in the soldier. So that we get help from God in our ministry. We may get a revelation. That is what Cornelius got. He is, a remarkable case, and the teaching is very wide in its bearing. And then, thirdly, a man gets joy in his house. He becomes a joyful type of man; not what he would have been normally, being a jailer. He is entirely changed. He would be quiet and sober, but he would sing a hymn and speak joyfully about the Lord and the salvation he had come into, and it would be in relation to all his house. In John 4 a conjunction is used, "and his house"; in Acts 10 a preposition is used, "with all his house"; and in this chapter, Acts 16, an adverb governs what the man is doing. He is rejoicing householdly (see note, N.T.). He is rejoicing householdly at a time when joy should be present.

J.T.Jr. Paul has no distress now. He had been distressed, in verse 18, by the spirit of Python in the woman, and what she continued to say, but now the

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conditions are different. Everything here is conducive to spiritual joy.

J.T. It is all very wonderful and yet it is extremely simple and practical. You can visualise how Paul and Silas would enter into this result of the gospel in Philippi.

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Pages 228 - 455, "Notes of Readings in New York", 1944 (Volume 163).

THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (11)

1 John 5:1 - 21

J.T. It is generally known that we are thinking of continuing the subject of life. We read from the first epistle of John at our last reading, finishing with chapter 3. It is thought that we should read the last chapter tonight. This scripture is intended to be confirmatory of what we have had in the ten previous readings on this subject. The epistles are usually intended to meet certain local conditions, but this epistle is not written to a local assembly. It is general, but specific as to its principle subject; it mainly deals with life, and it is characterised by the presentation of subjective truth. This is especially seen in this chapter: "He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself" (verse 10). This verse reminds us that in the possession of the Spirit, we have the means in ourselves of confirmation of what God presents to us. So that there should be some confirmation in most of us as to this matter of life, and by extension, as to every matter. There is considerable declension and deflection -- considerable turning aside from the truth -- and the secret is that there is not confirmation of it in our souls. The Lord, when there was a drifting away from Him, challenged His disciples, saying, "Will ye also go away?" John 6:67. The reply of Peter was, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal". That is what we have been seeking to understand in the recent series of meetings, involving whether we really have the witness in ourselves. If we have, how can we go away? Peter adds, "We have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God" (verse 69).

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It seems, therefore, that this chapter has a fitting place in the resumption of our subject so that we might proceed with some measure of understanding and assurance, that we may be learners or gainers in what comes before us.

I thought that we might take the chapter as it is, first as to victory -- how victory is accorded to us as begotten of God. The chapter begins, "Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God; and every one that loves him that has begotten loves also him that is begotten of him. Hereby know we that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments" (verses 1 - 3). The defect in many, I believe, is the want of understanding of having been begotten of God and how it works towards God and towards the brethren, so that there is a balanced love amongst us; that is, we love God by whom we are begotten, and we love the brethren -- those who are also begotten of Him. The idea is that we are all begotten of God. It is proved in different ways. It says, in verse 1, "Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God". That is not simply that he believes something because he has read it, but he is begotten of God; and not simply that he believes on the Lord Jesus, but he believes that He is the Christ.

C.A.M. This is an evidence that John's writings apply especially to the present time. This matter of life is important amongst the people of God when death seems to be pervading everything outwardly at the moment. It is a wonderful thing that this life is existent.

J.T. And the assurance that it affords as among the brethren, that we are conscious mutually of possessing love as begotten of God. Believing that Jesus is the Christ is not simply believing on Him as our Saviour. His name means Saviour, but it is

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another thing that He is the Christ; that is, He is the One anointed of God to do things for Him. He is in charge of everything.

C.A.M. Believing that Jesus is the Christ is at the beginning of the paragraph, but the paragraph ends with, "... he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God" (verse 5). Were you going to distinguish between those two thoughts?

J.T. I think the Lord would help us to look at what this paragraph presents. Believing that Jesus is the Christ would mean that He is the Messiah, if a Jew were in question. We are not Jews, but gentile believers, but the idea of the Christ applies to us as it did to them; that is, He is the One whom God has taken on as effecting all His thoughts and purposes. Then, as believing that He is the Son of God, the victory is gained: "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" This implies another world. The Christ takes up all that refers to this world -- the gospel, prophecy, etc. -- but the Son of God brings in another world.

C.A.M. Was not the Christ a mark of Peter's ministry from the beginning? "God has made him ... both Lord and Christ", Acts 2:36.

J.T. Quite so; the confirmation of it was, "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear" (verse 33). He had done that wonderful thing. He had "poured out this". That does not mean, exactly, that He was to bring in another world, but that He would do things here -- meet conditions here. "He has poured out this which ye behold and hear".

T.E.H. Is that what the woman in John 4 apprehended in her soul? She said, "Come, see a man who

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told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?" (verse 29).

J.T. Just so; He did things. He told her everything she had ever done.

A.A.T. Begotten of God is, I suppose, the sovereign work of God, but does it take place at some given time?

J.T. It is a fuller term than born again. John uses the latter term too, which is more initial than this; it is said to be by the Spirit. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit", John 3:6; but this is begotten of God. It is a fuller thought, and as 1 John 5 states, the evidence of it in the person is that he believes that Jesus is the Christ. Born of God includes new birth, but it is more advanced as to truth and experience, including the knowledge of redemption and the parental relation into which God has entered with the believer. John 3 indicates that new birth is a definite single operation of the Spirit, whereas begotten of God is progressive, involving the knowledge of God as Father and possession of the Spirit.

R.W.S. In moving on from believing that Jesus is the Christ to believing that Jesus is the Son of God, would the man in John 9 illustrate the process by which the latter is reached?

J.T. Yes. It looks as if the Lord waited for a certain time in the man's history or experience before He introduced to him the thought of His sonship. When He heard that they had cast him out He found him. There is no doubt that the Lord has to wait for most of us until something happens. How far have we gone? Can the Lord take us on and bring us into something greater and more conclusive than we have had? The Lord has waited for most of us, I would say, in order to take us on and bring us into something more distinctive and final. He waited until this man was cast out. It is said, "Jesus heard

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that they had cast him out, and having found him, he said to him, Thou, dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he" (verses 35 - 37). That is what happened then, and I believe it is very applicable now in this hall.

A.A.T. Would that man's faith, in result, give him the victory over the world?

J.T. Just so. He was cast out and he would feel that he was an outcast. There would be a certain loneliness about his position and the feeling that he was hated; so that the Lord would give him the victory. He needed it, and we all need the sense of victory in our souls.

J.T.Jr. The Lord did not tell him to go and sin no more, as He did the man in chapter 5, who caused the Lord trouble.

J.T. Just so; he went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. But there was no light in what he did. This man did nothing like that. He was detained before the Lord, and the Lord, in principle, opened up another world to him, where he will not be alone, but in life and victory. Chapter 10 is the continuation of the truth developing here.

T.E.H. How does the Lord hear when a soul gets to this point? Was it via prayer that the Lord heard?

J.T. Chapter 9 says, "Jesus heard that they had cast him out". How did the tidings come to him? We have often spoken of assembly ears. Things happen and only a few know about them because so many do not have assembly ears. It is said, in Acts 11, of certain facts, that "the report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem" (verse 22). Here it is just stated that Jesus heard that they had cast him out and He moved according to that, as it says, "And having found him,

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he said to him", etc. But how did he hear? It is not stated as though it were a matter of consciousness; it is the idea of something coming to His ear. The Lord is ever ready for this: a report or information about His people. It might be through prayer, as you say, but I would rather think that the Lord, here, was taking cognisance of reported conditions. Our care meetings afford opportunities for telling of things, and we have letters coming to us -- important letters that we read at our prayer meetings, and which brethren pass around -- also things which are passed from mouth to ear so that general conditions may become known. I believe that the Lord was in just that position here, in John 9. He was dealing with historical facts. He said, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he".

W.F.K. The man had been very faithful. Do you think the Lord supports us when we are faithful to Him?

J.T. Undoubtedly the Lord had divinely watched over all that had happened, but I think that the use of the word 'heard' means that He was looking for information as any one of us might look for it -- valuable information as regards the work of God.

J.S. Was the man lost in Judaism and the Lord found him?

J.T. He was found as an outcast. You can hardly say that he was lost in Judaism because Judaism cast him out. The Lord also was an outcast.

A.B.P. We are told that this man was born blind that the works of God should be manifested in him. Would that suggest that the very circumstances of birth and early life and environment of those who are born of God have been watched over by God all in view of His work and its completion?

J.T. Yes. You will notice that it is said, "As he passed on, he saw a man blind from birth". It does not say the disciples saw him; the Lord saw him.

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Later, the disciples asked Jesus about him, but Jesus saw him first.

A.S.P. The fact that the Jews had taken up stones to stone Him would emphasise that fact. Humanly speaking, He would be moving rapidly away from His persecutors.

J.T. Yes. It is very remarkable that the Lord saw the man first; also that in taking him up He said that neither his parents nor he had sinned. Captious people would say that what the Lord was saying was not true, because the Scriptures say that everyone has sinned. But what the Lord said was absolutely true from His point of view. The inquiry of the disciples would refer to God's governmental dealings (Exodus 20:5, 6), and the Lord's reply implied this and other similar passages.

A.A.T. Is it your point that he reached life at the end in reaching the Son?

J.T. Yes; although strictly the Son reached him. What we are saying now is of the utmost importance as bearing on whether our souls are getting on in the truth. The Lord takes us up in relation to the truth and for manifestation of the works of God, and unless these are there nothing is happening. The Lord is looking for some manifestation of the works of God. So He found this man. In view of all that had transpired since He had seen him before, He says to the man, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he". It would be very hard to prove that, except from the Lord's own words. The passage does not say anything about that at first, but of course, the Lord is dealing with the facts of the case. But as to the man's history, the Lord evidently treats of it in the first verses of the chapter as divinely known to Him. Why cannot God take up anyone viewing him entirely from the standpoint of what He intends to bring about in him? Why cannot God shut out all else?

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C.A.M. So that would be seen in his reaction when he saw Jesus, the Son of God.

J.T. It is a question of the works of God being manifested.

W.W.M. And manifested in a person, too?

J.T. Quite so. He is the subject of the chapter.

J.S. Does this incident lend lustre to the suggestion of something to be manifested, in chapter 1, "Thou shalt be called Cephas"?

J.T. It is a question of the works of God being manifested in a man. It is a big subject, though only one man is in mind here. It is the works of God -- not only new birth -- it is the works. God takes on each, one at a time. But man is the subject of the works of God.

W.R. The Lord, in taking us on, has the testimony in mind. It says, "The neighbours therefore, and those who used to see him before, that he was a beggar, said, Is not this he that was sitting and begging?" They discerned the great change that had come about in him.

J.T. Yes; it is the works of God showing themselves. There are negative attachments, but the works of God are positive. All that is recorded of this man after his eyes were opened, is to bring out how the works of God were being manifested in him. What will eternity be? -- a display of the works of God in persons. This is immense in its importance. Each of us is to hold himself in that way; that he is taken up sovereignly. God is entitled to view each of us sovereignly and treat us from His own point of view.

A.B.P. Does John 9 enhance the greatness of the work of God in that the end reached wholly justifies the fact that the man was born blind and suffered the handicaps of blindness so long?

J.T. Just so; the Lord now has a subject for another world. He is not finished with him yet, but the man has gone on well. He is seen worshipping

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the Son of God. What follows is chapter 10, involving another world. The Son of God is now in evidence, as we have here: "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" This man gets the victory over the world; not that as cast out of the synagogue he had the victory, but he was going on to it, and clearly he will reach it. The Lord takes him on as fit for greater things, and chapters 10 and 11 open up what He has in mind; that is, that God may be glorified and the Son of God glorified. That is a great suggestion -- God glorified, and the Son of God glorified in one person. That was seen in Lazarus, but it is the same thing, in principle, in this man. God is going to be glorified in every person that He takes up. That is the idea, and one has to hold himself in that way.

A.I. How do you connect what you are saying about this blind man, and the work of God in him, with the thought of life which you have before you?

J.T. The work of God, in the earlier part of the chapter, is seen in the facts presented, which we have not time to go into in detail, but in general they are that the Lord spat on the ground and made mud of the spittle and put the mud, as ointment, on the man's eyes and said to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, which is interpreted, Sent. He went therefore and washed, and came seeing". Notice that this is what the man did. "The neighbours therefore, and those who used to see him before, that he was a beggar, said, Is not this he that was sitting and begging? Some said, It is he; others said. No, but he is like him: he said, It is I". He is standing before them now self-confessed. He is the one that God is working with and in whom the works of God are being manifested -- on the principle of doing what he is told to do.

J.T.Jr. Is the I carried forward in that way? He says, "It is I" Is that the carrying forward of

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the identity of the person that has this new thing in him?

J.T. Just so; the identity of the person; and that goes through into eternity. It will never leave him.

W.C.R. Would this thought of obedience be seen in what Paul says, "I took not counsel with flesh and blood", Galatians 1:16?

J.T. There can be nothing without that. God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey -- no others. We have no true part in the things of God if we have not the Spirit, but we get it on the principle of obedience, so that the 'I' goes through.

F.N.W. Is Paul seeking to bring this home to us in Romans 9:23? He says, "That he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory".

J.T. That is right. So that it is the glory of God and the glory of the Son of God. That is what this section has in mind.

J.T.Jr. Is not the thought that we should not carry forward this old thing that had been connected with I -- Sihon and Og? Is not that all to be set aside by this operation of God in us?

J.T. Yes. It is very significant that those two men, Sihon and Og, come in as Israel was about to cross Jordan. We do not take the big I over there. We go over "in Christ" and that is what we are dealing with now in John's epistle. The life is in God's Son. There is no big I there.

A.B.P. Is that why the Lord could say of Lazarus, "Loose him and let him go"?

J.T. That is the idea. It is the culmination of this section. This man of chapter 9, and all that he represents, merges into chapter 11. Then the group at Bethany would show how we come together to make a supper for the Lord -- to honour the Lord -- so

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that this leads us back to our chapter in John's epistle, which is really the culmination, as I have said, of the subject engaging us. We see where life is; it is in the Son. As born of God we believe that Jesus is the Christ, and then we have the victory over the world; in verse 5 it is asked, "Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" Then verse 6 begins with this great matter of witness -- witness to us -- so that we should have experience in this matter, that we should possess life in consciousness. Hence, John says, in verse 13, "These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God". The word 'know' in that verse is conscious knowledge. A class of persons is in mind.

W.R. Is not that like what we have in Romans 8:16, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God"? Would it show that we are of a different order of man altogether?

J.T. Quite so; it is the Spirit's action in us that is the witness. Here the Spirit is the witness to the water and the blood. "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth", 1 John 5:6. The passage you allude to is in Romans 8, and the word there is 'children', alluding to what we are here as the objects of God's care in this world. Here, verse 6 says, "The Spirit ... bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth". That is, the witness here is not simply that we are children of God; it refers to the truth. If the brethren will look at the New Translation they will see a footnote about the article before the word 'truth'. "The Spirit is the truth". The proposition is what is called reciprocal. The Spirit witnesses to the truth in its entirety; there is nothing left out. We have the whole matter in the witness of the Spirit.

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The truth is commensurate with the Spirit in this sense. The whole truth is in the Spirit.

A.I. Would you connect John 20:22 with what you are speaking of in relation to witness? It says, "He breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit".

J.T. It would be involved. It is not simply that we are children of God. He is witnessing to us of the whole truth as set forth in Christ, who is also said to be the truth. The whole truth of redemption and the Spirit coming in from Christ in heaven is implied. Thus why should we be without full knowledge of eternal life? It is what is in Christ. This section, beginning with verse 6, deals with this whole matter. The position of eternal life, objectively, is in Christ; in the Son. But it is in us, too. We are told earlier that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. There are people that have not eternal life abiding in them, and will never have it. But christians have it and the witness of it is in ourselves.

F.N.W. Does what you were saying recently about John being in the Spirit, confirming in himself the Lord's day, link with this?

J.T. Just so. The truth of the first day of the week, or the Lord's day, would be confirmed in John. "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day", Revelation 1:10. The Lord's day is there. You could not find it in an almanac. It is in John; he was in the Spirit. That is the same idea. If we are in the Spirit we are witnessing to certain things.

A.P.T. Is eternal life a more expanded truth here than when the Lord was with the disciples? When the Lord was here it was not witnessed to by the water and the blood.

J.T. It is in the present time. This section deals with what is now; the position of eternal life. It was only in Christ then, but now it is in us as well; but what is in us is in Him positionally in its entirety.

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Its position is in the Son. This epistle teaches us as to what eternal life is and where it is. It is in Christ -- in the Son -- which would imply moral elevation; not exactly position in heaven, but moral elevation which is implied in the thought of the Son of God. If you grasp the idea of the Son of God, you have moral greatness; moral elevation. The thing is outside the world, if it is in Him. You cannot connect the idea of the Son of God with this world. It is outside the world, and the witness of the Spirit is to the water and the blood. They show how we are detached from this world and set up in another world, not exactly in heaven, but in the Son of God, involving, as said, moral greatness and moral elevation.

C.A.M. The more you dwell on this subjective matter, the more precious the gospel really becomes to you. In other words, the subjective and the objective ideas are commensurate with one another, are they not?

J.T. Yes. There must be witness here of the thing that is in question. This is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life. It is a great fact that He has given that to us, and the position of that life is in the Son. It is in a fixed out-of-the-world place, not exactly heaven, but in the Son of God. Well, who is the witness to that? In a sense, the witness of it is in those who have it in the Son of God. It is the subjective side here. "These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life who believe on the name of the Son of God". You know the thing in yourself, but where is the thing that you have? Where has God placed it? Well, you say, it is placed in the saints. No, it is in the Son of God. That is where it is, but we have it in us by the Spirit.

J.S. I was wondering whether verse 13, "... who believe on the name of the Son of God", would imply that the belief is a present thing.

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J.T. That is the point that is made. In the gospel it says, that "... ye might have life in his name", but here it is that you may know that you have it. It is conscious knowledge.

A.P.T. In verse 11 we are told, "And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life". And then the Spirit of God says, "And this life is in his Son". Is there any difference by the addition of the word 'eternal' in the first passage quoted?

J.T. I would not think so. "This life is in his Son". It is the same life. As to the matter of witness, it says, "And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth". That is the great fact of witness, that the Person who is witnessing is the whole truth. As we were saying, it is a reciprocal matter. You may turn it round and say, The truth is the Spirit. We have a firm foundation in that. And then, "For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one" (verse 8). The word 'agree' means that they are to one point or purpose -- to one thing in their testimony. The threefold witness is not that each one witnesses to something, but all is to one purpose -- to establish the truth in our souls. The witness is to us; it is not what is in heaven, but what is down here. And then it goes on to say, "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater". The Spirit is stressing the thought of witness. And then, "For this is the witness of God which he has witnessed concerning his Son. He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself" (verses 9, 10). That is the point to notice, so that each one can be sure in himself. And then, "He that does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness which God has witnessed concerning his Son. And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son". Now, you were inquiring whether eternal life and life in verse 11

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are the same. I think they are. The demonstrative pronoun is pointing to eternal life. That is, that this life is eternal life, and the position of it, as for us, is in the Son. It is in a fixed position. It is not said that it is in heaven, but in the Son -- that position of greatness, dignity and elevation. It is away from the influence of this world.

W.F.K. What life is referred to in, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren", chapter 3: 14?

J.T. That is the life we are speaking about. We know, if we love the brethren, that this has taken place in us; it is a conscious matter.

A.R. "He that has the Son has life", (verse 12). The believer has part in it.

J.T. Yes. "He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life". The point is eternal life; nothing less than that is contemplated in all this use of the word 'life'.

A.R. In all these remarks, we are not holding the truth merely abstractly.

J.T. No. It is most important to maintain the consciousness of it, and to ask ourselves the question, Have we made any headway in this great inquiry?

J.T.Jr. Joshua and Caleb would represent, in type, those who have the thing. And as they came into the land they realised what had been divinely promised.

J.T. They came through.

A.W. Was Paul making headway when he preached that Jesus is the Son of God (Acts 9:20)? Had he made headway up to that point?

J.T. He preached that; but I would observe that we may be able to preach much more than we are conscious of. What is so needed in the saints is power for appropriation -- when you are sitting down, or lying down, or wherever you are. The Spirit gives

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you the consciousness of the thing, and makes you victorious. We may preach well and not be conscious of the thing we are speaking about. Your first preaching is not always the best. Peter's address at Pentecost was excellent -- especially supported by the Spirit -- but Peter preached before. We do not get the very best from a first preaching. You get more what the preacher has objectively.

E.S. Paul says, in 2 Corinthians 12, "I know a man in Christ".

J.T. That would mean that as he wrote he had the same consciousness as when he was taken up. The word 'know' there is conscious knowledge. Knowing himself as a man in Christ was, we may say, a continuous thing with him for fourteen years. The point as to consciousness is what we ought to get as looking into this chapter.

E.A.L. It is most interesting in reading in John 9 about the man having eyesight given him. It was not restored; he had not had it before. You were emphasising the word 'seeing'. "He went therefore and washed, and came seeing" (verse 7). This witness must therefore be linked with that.

J.T. That helps us. Let us go back to John 9 to see the tenses of the verb 'see' used by this man in giving his account of how he received his sight. In verse 8 it is said, "The neighbours therefore, and those who used to see him before, that he was a beggar, said, Is not this he that was sitting and begging? Some said, It is he; others said, No, but he is like him: he said, It is I" We have already touched on that, but I am bringing forward what he said. Then in verse 11, we read, "He answered and said, A man called Jesus made mud and anointed mine eyes, and said to me, Go to Siloam and wash: and having gone and washed, I saw". That is historical. Then verse 13 says, "They bring him who was before blind to the Pharisees. Now it was

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sabbath when Jesus made the mud and opened his eyes. The Pharisees therefore also again asked him how he received his sight. And he said to them, He put mud upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see". Now, let the brethren notice that. One is past tense and the other is present tense. This illustrates what we are speaking about. The man was now conscious that he was seeing. "I saw" -- something might have happened after that to blur his vision, but his sight was clear when he was speaking to the Pharisees, and he says, "I see". It is the present state the man is in. That is what we are speaking of now -- it is what we actually are in regard of eternal life.

F.N.W. What bearing have the water and the blood on our subject suggested in 1 John 5?

J.T. They refer to redemption. "This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus the Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth. For they that bear witness are three: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood". Notice that the water comes first in both cases. It is not now by water only, but by water and blood; then the three that bear witness are the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. Now, why should John be stressing this matter of water? Is it not just bearing on what we are saying? -- that the state of the brethren is not equal to their light? Most of us are forgiven of our sins; we know the Lord Jesus as Saviour, and we have forgiveness, but very few of us understand the state that goes with the gift of the Spirit. John is dealing with the general state in which we are; not only the effect of the blood, which relieves our consciences, but the state of deliverance from the working of sin, resulting from purification by the death of Christ, symbolised in the water.

C.A.M. I am very glad that feature of the truth has come up. I believe this matter of consciously

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having the Spirit and solemnly taking account of our state would have a most marked effect.

J.T. An understanding of the water and definite appropriation of it settles the whole matter of what goes on amongst the brethren in their houses and in our general relations with one another. Now the state that the water produces is to render uprightness, transparency and holiness amongst ourselves. That is what John is aiming at in this chapter.

W.C.R. Was the state right with the three Hebrew children in Daniel? They purposed in their hearts not to defile themselves with the king's meat, and then they had with them in the furnace, the fourth like a Son of God. Is the thought of victory there, too?

J.T. Yes. The Son of God, as we have been saying, is stressed in the chapter before us. They believed on Him, in principle. The Son of God had joined them; He was a fourth. Can He do it now? This chapter means that if He is to join us, the state must be right.

A.R. John the baptist says, "I come baptising with water" (John 1:31), but of the Son of God he says, "He it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit", (verse 33). You were speaking of how we speak about the brethren in our homes. It would be very serious to speak wrongly of them, but we are apt to do so. Although forgiven, and in fellowship, that does not settle the matter of transparency. This epistle deals with a subjective condition among the brethren involving eternal life.

A.A.T. Does it not require more spirituality to discern state than to discern acts?

J.T. It does. If I am characterised by a purified state of soul, I can carry on a conversation without bringing in what is detrimental. The water represents the application of the death of Christ to the believer so as to effect and maintain in him a state answering to his position "in Christ".

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A.R. We thus understand how closely we are related to one another as of the body.

J.T. The witness of the Spirit as to the water and the blood effects this result. It is the Spirit that bears witness; this implies that you get a perfect testimony, as you listen to Him, to the water and the blood. The water comes first. If you were preaching the gospel, you would put the blood first, but in the matter of state, the saints need the water. The Spirit is the truth and hence, as place is accorded to Him, the whole truth will come out.

J.A.P. Are you speaking of the water in relation to John 13, where the Lord washed the feet of the disciples?

J.T. Yes. It is in the sense in which the water purifies. Blood purifies in an objective sense. It is a matter of testimony -- what I believe -- but water is permeating, tending to nullify and remove the effects of sin within the believer, hence: "Not a cloud above -- not a spot within". The application of the water by the Spirit goes deep and is searching, so as to purify and bring about in the believer a different state than that in which he has been.

Ques. Does it enable me to maintain a pure mind and a pure conscience and view the brethren as holy brethren?

J.T. Yes. We must always clothe them in that way.

F.S.C. Is the means of cleansing, that which came out of the Lord's side?

J.T. That is a touching fact. The Lord's side is thus connected with this great subject of a good state. His side implies His affection for the assembly. In truth, the Holy Spirit would give us to understand that the assembly has come out of Christ's side, as Eve came out of Adam.

J.T.Jr. That is very instructive, because Ephesians speaks of Christ purifying the assembly by the washing

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of water by the word; and the last word in Ephesians is incorruption.

W.R. What you are saying is very searching, for the ministry comes to us by the Spirit. Have you in mind that our souls may be established in a purified and living condition?

J.T. That is right. That is just the phrase to use. We may now proceed to note certain other things mentioned in our chapter, we might say, incidentally, to help us, "And this is the boldness which we have towards him, that if we ask him anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him" (verses 14, 15). That brings out the state of things where prayer is heard, and we know that if God hears us, He will act for us. This is very confirmatory in relation to the great subject before us. And then, "If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life". Notice here the giving of life, which is also in keeping with our subject. It is for one who, although he sins a sin, it is not unto death. The apostle says further, "There is a sin to death: I do not say of that that he should make a request. Every unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not to death. We know that every one begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life" (verses 16 - 20). Now these are added statements of truth that the Spirit of God sees the need for in us, that there might be right relations among us and that we might be consciously in fellowship. We come to the idea of

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God in Jesus, that He is the true God and eternal life. The end in view is that we are consciously in the presence of Deity in Christ, and participating in eternal life. How immense all this truth is, and how blessed to have part in it!

W.R. Referring to prayer for one who sins, do you see this in Job at the end of his book? God says, "My servant Job shall pray for you", chapter 42: 8.

J.T. Yes; he acts as a priest. Brothers that can do that are always needed.

A.P.T. "If any one see", is evidently the thought of conscious knowledge. "If any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life". What does that imply?

J.T. The reference is to a brother whose sin is not as serious as some. We have to grade sins that happen among us. We can go a certain length with some who sin. If it is a sin not unto death there is hope and the prayer is that he might live. Why should one die under the governmental dealings of God if there is a way of escape -- of life?

T.E.H. Would Nathan represent a man that would help a saint in view of a sin that was unto death?

J.T. Quite so; he put the sin on David's conscience and it had a real effect. He said that he had sinned against the Lord and he lay on the earth in hope that Jehovah would save the child, but He did not. The child died. That implied that the sin was unto death.

A.B.P. Is a sin unto death a sin against the truth?

J.T. I would think so. The whole truth as presented here. The Spirit is the truth. The truth implies the whole position. Apostasy is against the whole position. Sin in Hebrews is regarded as unforgivable. But I do not think this can be said of a sin unto death. The government of God is contemplated here, and only the discernment which the Spirit gives can judge rightly as to it. The

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teaching of the chapter contemplates this discernment. In Corinth many fell asleep because of conduct; but on the other hand, the incestuous person was disciplined, put away by the assembly and was restored.

A.I. How would you explain the statement here, "every one begotten of God does not sin"?

J.T. That is the abstract way of stating the truth which marks this epistle. It deals with things, each by itself. Hence, viewed in his mixed condition, a man would lie if he said he had no sin; whereas, viewed absolutely as born of God he cannot sin. Compare chapter 1: 8 and chapter 3: 9.

A.P.T. Paul says, "Thou halt been thoroughly acquainted with my teaching, conduct", etc., 2 Timothy 3:10. I was wondering if the worldly apparel, adornment of face and other such things taken on from the world would militate against life and eternal life.

J.T. I am sure they do. Eternal life is not simply a heavenly thing, but an out-of-the-world state and condition of being. We cannot get a better definition than that. An out-of-the-world condition does not take on these things. It abominates them.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (12)

John 20:30, 31; John 1:4; John 3:14 - 16

J.T. It is thought that these verses of John 20, which we may regard as the closing verses of the book, chapter 21 having the nature of an appendix, will help us in taking up the whole gospel in relation to our subject, which is life. They come in after Thomas' remarkable address to the Lord Jesus, "My Lord and my God". It is not simply a formal statement as to His Godhead; He is addressed as God. The Lord's answer finishes the matter of Thomas' unbelief. And then we have these two verses in which signs are spoken of: "Many other signs therefore also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name" (verses 30, 31). The subject of life comes in as linked to the truth of the Person of Christ. It is thought that John's gospel is par excellence the section of Scripture that deals with our subject; and not only does it treat of life in relation to those who form the assembly, but also in its universal bearing extending on to the millennium. The epistles generally present life in regard to the saints in this dispensation, but the gospel by John treats of it in its universal bearing.

The introductory remark in chapter 1: 4, that life in Christ was the light of men, confirms that the universal aspect is in mind. But this verse is basic as to the whole subject. The One who is spoken of in the first three verses, who is presented to us as the Word, who was in the beginning, who was with God and who was God, through whom all things received being, is presented in verse 4 in relation to life: "In

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him was life, and the life was the light of men". It is thought that the two verses in chapter 20, and this one in chapter 1 which we read, will help us in further pursuing our subject in this gospel. The verse in chapter 1 contemplates life abstractly in the Son, but nevertheless in a substantial sense, because it is said to be light. It is that by which light is afforded us.

J.S. Does Thomas arrive at this fact of the deity of Christ by experience?

J.T. It is remarkable that he addresses the Lord in this way, covering the great opening statements in the gospel as to His deity. No doubt he represents the Jews in the last days, and how the deity of Christ will be apprehended by them in view of the millennium -- "My Lord and my God", he says. The Spirit of God had in mind that the thought of life should extend on into the millennium, as it will have a public application there, and Christ will be apprehended as God. It is, in effect, a confession from his soul, only it is an address to the Lord -- "My Lord and my God".

A.N.W. You would say that the prime truth of christianity is who this Person is?

J.T. That is what I thought, and that life is made to attach to it as the great thought following it in this gospel.

R.W.S. Is the first part of verse 29, "Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed", millennial? and is "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed", our own times?

J.T. Yes, clearly. Thomas represents the Jews. His part in chapter 20 is millennial in the sense of the Jewish side of it. The nations, as having part in the millennial day, are seen in the next chapter; that is, the one hundred and fifty-three fishes. They were taken in the net, "great fishes", but Thomas, as a type, does not belong to them. He belongs to the Jewish nation. He is connected with the second manifestation recorded in this gospel. The first

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manifestation (chapter 20: 19 - 23), refers to the assembly; the second, represented by Thomas, refers to Israel; and the third is in the one hundred and fifty-three fishes -- the manifestation in Galilee.

J.S. In the first the Lord breathed into the disciples.

J.T. That refers to the assembly -- the inner circle, which is the greatest.

A.P.T. The great draft of fishes, that is, of men, will be the result from the preaching of the gospel after the assembly is taken up. We read of an immense number in Revelation 7 -- "a great crowd, which no one could number".

J.T.Jr. What would you say as to the order in which Thomas speaks? He says "Lord" first.

J.T. There is a certain correspondence between his address to the Lord and the message that the Lord had sent through Mary to the disciples: "... my Father and your Father, ... my God and your God", chapter 20: 17. This indicates a circle having the greatest and most intimate family relation with God. In Ephesians, Paul bows his knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named; and the first of these families is clearly in mind in the message through Mary, in which the Lord says to His brethren, "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". Now in what Thomas says, he has missed that. He was not with the other disciples when the message came. He represents the Jews coming in later, but nevertheless with light as to Christ; but "my God" comes after "my Lord". The latter would be a kingdom reference. Instead of "my Father" in the inner circle, it is "my Lord" and then "my God". The light that comes to Thomas is by the sign seen in the Lord's body; that is, he is on lower ground. It is not a revelation that he gets, but what is evident in the Lord personally; it is

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what he witnesses under the Lord's direction. The Lord says to him, "Bring thy finger here and see my hands; and bring thy hand and put it into my side; and be not unbelieving, but believing. Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God". It is just light that comes to him through what is in Christ's body. It is regarded, I think, as a sign here. He gets light through a sign, whereas the other disciples, in the early part of the chapter, get light through a message, involving a revelation, which is a higher thing; besides it is in a heavenly setting: "I ascend". It should be noted, however, that in the message and also in what Thomas says the final thought is God.

A.N.W. While each is called a manifestation, yet the first is an inner one.

J.T. Just so; the disciples were again within, but evidently on a lower level, for there was an unbelieving one among them, who necessarily detracted from the occasion. Any characteristic unbeliever here today detracts from this occasion. But Thomas' unbelief was dispelled by the sign afforded by what was in the Lord's own Person.

J.S. Is it Israel coming into the light of sonship in Thomas?

J.T. It is the kingdom first. They said to Him, "Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons", Acts 1:6, 7. He implied that it was a question of the Spirit, of availing themselves of Him and all that His coming involved and also of their own service and testimony in which they would realise His presence and power. According to what he said to the Lord, Thomas would be ready for the kingdom; "My Lord" involves the kingdom.

C.A.M. Do you think that on earth, in the kingdom, there will be something that will correspond to this in the Lord being seen by Israel?

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J.T. The prophets afford abundant evidence of that. "What are those wounds in thy hands?" Zechariah 13:6, for instance; and there will be other such questions that will bring out the truth. The truth will come out as to who He is.

L.E.S. I was thinking of that scripture in Zechariah 13"They shall call on my name, and I will answer them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God" (verse 9).

J.T. Psalm 24 also speaks of how He will be regarded in that day: "Lift up your heads, ye gates; yea, lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in. Who is he, this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory", Psalm 24:9, 10. Such scriptures as these show how the Jews will come to know Him.

C.A.M. That is very helpful, because it shows that the Lord Jesus, having come into this condition in which Thomas saw Him, will be made known to them by-and-by.

J.T. John 3:36 alludes to their present insubjection. Prior to that it says, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (verse 35). That is the present economy. And then verse 36 says, "He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him". The word 'subject' in that verse is akin to the idea of believing, but it is a stronger suggestion; the Jews were insubject with hostility. Their unbelief implied contumacy. They will have to come to the acknowledgment of the Lord and who He is, and become subject to Him. "He that is not subject to the Son shall not see life" -- that is at the present time. They are under wrath now, but they will become subject to Christ through faith.

C.A.M. It will not be appearance only then; they will be affected by witness.

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J.T. I think so -- undoubtedly there will be a powerful ministry to bring them round to the truth of His Person. Matthew will go on into the last days. He records that the disciples had to go to Galilee to see the Lord. And in speaking to them there He makes a great deal of His commandments. He is seen there in kingly dignity.

W.R. Do you have the insubject state in chapter 6 in those who turned away back?

J.T. Well, they represent that sort of thing; they went away back. They murmured against the Lord; they represent the irresponsive state of things that develops because of the truth; especially the truth of the death of Christ in relation to life.

A.N.W. Thomas, at subsequent meetings, would need adjustment, would he not, to fit in assembly-wise?

J.T. He would indeed! He would be behind in assembly service. The loss he sustained through his absence at the first meeting was most serious. The experience of it could hardly be exactly realised again.

J.S. It was eight days after. Is that not significant?

J.T. Yes; the number indicates that another time or dispensation is contemplated.

L.E.S. Thus Thomas misses the essential features of christianity, for typically he is going into the restored kingdom of Israel.

J.T. Yes; he is behind. Paul had said that he was an abortion, but he was not to be blamed for that, but Thomas is to be blamed for being behind the time. Paul was before the time; he was ready for the blessing of Israel, but he came in for the assembly; he was before the time. Thomas was behind the immediate blessing, so that the Lord says to him, "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed" (verse 29). In principle and type Thomas missed this.

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We are reminded in what is before us how the greatest advantage may be missed through carelessness.

R.W.S. He was called Didymus, meaning twin. Why is that?

J.T. During the first meeting with the Lord as risen he may have been visiting his natural brother! Evidently nature was involved in the twin relation. Dispensationally Thomas missed the crowning feature of the present period -- the revelation of the Father. Indeed, we may add, the heavenly side of the truth and the state that attaches to it, expressed in the Lord breathing into the disciples.

C.H.H. Would it be a permanent loss to him that Thomas did not have the Holy Spirit breathed into him?

J.T. That is another important point -- that he missed such a unique and touching experience. Dispensationally and spiritually the scene depicted in John 20:19 - 23 stands by itself unrepeated.

A.N.W. Thomas would be in the upper room at Pentecost, but he missed the breathing.

J.T. The intimacy implied in breathing has a very special value; the corresponding action at Pentecost was powerful, the "sound" being described as a "violent impetuous blowing". It was powerful, having relation to what is public. And there was the appearance of cloven tongues as of fire that sat on each of them; therefore it was external. Of course, it was the Spirit of God coming in, but the external side is stressed; whereas John 20 is internal, the intimate relation between the Lord and the disciples being noted.

A.A.T. From what you said about Thomas exclaiming, "My Lord and my God" it seems he did not know Him as Son of God.

J.T. The thought of the Son of God is immediately added: "... that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God". This is involved in the

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teaching of the book; that is, a teaching linked up with the signs. The signs are stressed, and Thomas had the benefit of most of them, but it did not introduce him into the elevated family relationship that belongs to the assembly, and those who form it. The title Son of God is noted throughout this gospel, being involved in the testimony of John the baptist and confirmed in the Lord's own public ministry.

C.H.H. Would the 'ye' in verse 31 go beyond the assembly, and will these signs, as recorded, have value to the remnant?

J.T. I would think so. I think all the gospels will be used of the Spirit in the instruction of the remnant; they go beyond this dispensation; they go "over the wall", as we might say. The gospels include the millennium. The testimony of the humanity of Christ here, His manhood in flesh and blood, His death and resurrection, must go beyond our dispensation.

C.A.M. The preaching in that day will involve the general truth of each gospel, would you say? Take, for instance, Luke's gospel; repentance and forgiveness preached to all the nations. Would the blessedness of such a gospel be proclaimed then?

J.T. That is what I was thinking. Matthew 10 shows that the testimony of the twelve apostles will be presented to Israel; they were to go to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel".

A.B.P. Would the signs that are recorded by John be the opening up of the life that was in Christ, which would shed its light upon men?

J.T. That is how it works out. The word 'life' in John 20:31, connected with chapter 1: 4, is to be borne in mind throughout, as suggested earlier, "that believing ye might have life in his name". The signs of this gospel help us in the understanding of the great subject of life.

A.B.P. The light would be the result of the movements

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of life? "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". Would that life be expressed in detail in His movements?

J.T. That is the idea of it. The substance, so to speak, that was there, as in movement was light. There is substance in the sun. Light is the effect of it. This thought, as applied to Christ, we can understand: "The life was the light of men". Men are in view; the bearing of this verse is universal. But the actual breaking up of the truth begins properly, I think, in chapter 4, after John was cast into prison. The Lord's ministry did not properly begin until John was cast into prison. So the practical working out of the truth begins with the Spirit in the believer, welling up into everlasting life. That is the tangible idea of its application in the believer -- subjectively and objectively. As objective it is in Christ; as subjective it is by the Spirit in the believer.

J.T.Jr. "They who have not seen and have believed", chapter 20, would be inward, one getting things spiritually. It is not a sight matter.

J.T. It is the faith period -- the Spirit making all good inwardly. It involves a circle. The Lord came to where the disciples were, we are told. They were immediately in His mind. And the doors were shut for fear of the Jews. This protects the inner circle from Jewish elements. They would fit in with Thomas, but not with the first appearing. And of course that brings up the whole matter of assembly formation; that it is an inner circle, according to Ephesians 4"... with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love; using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace". This is general exhortation, based on the three circles immediately mentioned: "There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling". That is the first circle; then, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism"

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-- the second circle; then, "one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". It is not stated, one Father and God, but God and Father -- it is the Father as in the government of the universe -- the third concentric circle is implied. I think we are helped in taking up these things in this order, having assembly formation in view. We shall in this way come to understand the inner circle of which we have been speaking. "We have both access by one Spirit to the Father". This is not the Jew and gentile as in these manifestations in John 20 and 21, but the Jew and gentile brought together in christianity in one Spirit.

A.R. The inner circle would be barred to the Jew as such.

J.T. That is for us to see to -- "fear of the Jews" shows there is a judgment as to them. Evidently it existed in the disciples. They were conscious of the danger in that; thus the doors were shut. Notice it is doors; the reference would be to their hearts. The issues of life are out of the heart, and that would imply John's gospel.

Ques. Would these three circles of which you were speaking take definite form?

J.T. Yes. The universe involves the idea of three. Indeed, it marks the Godhead -- three Persons. Three heavens are mentioned. In the ark of Noah there were three stories; in the tabernacle there were three spheres -- the court, the holy place and the holiest; and in the temple which Solomon built there were three such spheres also. It is a divine way; it exists eternally, I would think.

D.P. In what circle would John the baptist be?

J.T. The least one of us here today is greater than he. That fact helps us at once. We have to just place him that way. No one born of woman is greater than he. So that he has a great place in that sense. John the evangelist greatly enhances the general

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testimony to John the baptist, presenting him as most feelingly and humbly speaking of Christ as from heaven, whose voice as the Bridegroom caused the joy of his heart to be fulfilled. You can hardly tell the difference between what he says in chapter 3 and what John the evangelist says himself by the Spirit. John the baptist will surely have a great place in nearness to Christ and the assembly in the graded distinctions of the coming glories.

A.N.W. He is the friend of the Bridegroom and is not of the bride.

J.T. Clearly that was understood by him. He says, "He must increase, but I must decrease", John 3:30. He is not aspiring to anything beyond what God, according to the discrimination and counsel of His love, had given him.

C.H.H. Would the words 'through all', in the third circle of Ephesians 4, include the remnant and the nations in the millennium?

J.T. "One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all", suggests the outer circle, but it goes beyond "my Father and your Father" of John 20. I would say that Ephesians 4 alludes to the Governor of the universe. It is a present state of things involving the worlds, as well as this world that we are in -- that God is over everything. Hebrews 11 says, "The worlds were framed by the word of God". God's mind entered into that operation; but the worlds are governed, or controlled. They do not come into John 20. In the message to the disciples through Mary the Lord is not alluding to the government of the world; He is alluding to the highest of all the divine families -- His brethren, who are associated with Him as ascending to His Father and their Father, His God and their God. But Ephesians 4 takes account of all things as they are now. The one God and Father is Governor of all; He is over everything, but He is in us all. I

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think we should all be sympathetic with God as over all things. Everything is kept going by Him -- all the worlds. Hebrews contemplates the worlds -- not simply world -- as framed by the word of God, and they are functioning. Whatever God has in His mind as to them, they are functioning, and He is looking after them. Even as regards the nations now, the government of the world externally is under the Father. He carries it on in an indirect way, but still, He carries it on.

J.T.Jr. The thought of three comes down to the physical system around us -- the air, the land and the sea.

J.T. These are the three component parts of our immediate physical environment.

C.A.M. The breathing of which we have been speaking, would connect with the atmospheric sphere.

J.T. Yes; the first heaven; the expanse included the air. God called the expanse heavens. That is in addition to what God had primarily created. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". What is spoken of as the expanse in Genesis 1 is additional. It was made on the second day. Government, in a general sense, enters into that. But the heaven of heavens is another matter, involving the realm of God. Paul speaks of the third heaven, which is spiritual. Paul said he did not know whether he was in the body or out of the body as caught up there. Satan is said to be in heaven; but it would be the lower or atmospheric heaven -- out of which he and his angels are to be cast; Revelation 12:7 - 9. He is spoken of as the prince of the power of the air.

C.A.M. The place the assembly has in these three spheres in Ephesians 4 is very wonderful. It is the most exalted.

J.T. But I think it is well to bear in mind that Ephesians 4 bears on the present state of things -- just what we are in today -- not what will be eternally.

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As was already said, the "one God and Father of all" refers to the present state of things, inclusive of the worlds beyond us, because everything must be taken into account. You cannot put even the second circle into the eternal state of things because it includes baptism; baptism is administered down here. And the first circle is viewed as it exists now, for the idea of hope is in it.

N.F.L. If the Father is over all, how extensive is the authority of the Son, spoken of in John 3:35? It says, "The Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand".

J.T. Well, the Father is over all. It is simply that He has given all things into the hand of the Son; He is not giving them away. The Father remains in the economy as the Father.

A.N.W. Would that statement you are now dwelling on bear on the apostle's word to the Athenians "... for in him we live and move and exist", Acts 17:28?

J.T. That refers to physical life. Even unconverted people live and move and have their being in God. Everything, in that sense, is under God, even the very growth of a blade of grass. God does it; God gives a grain of wheat, as it grows, a body as it has pleased Him; 1 Corinthians 15:37, 38.

A.B.P. Does the "in us all" in Ephesians 4, morally coincide with "in all" in 1 Corinthians 15:28; that the assembly is brought into moral accord with that now?

J.T. I think so; that God may be all in all.

W.C.R. The apostle Paul says of the Lord, in Romans 9:5, "... of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever". How does that fit in with Ephesians 4?

J.T. He is over all in a mediatorial sense. But personally, He has part in Godhead and thus He is equal with the Father and He acts as God in His

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own right. God is one, although there are three divine Persons. Each of the Persons can act as God. As to the Jews, the way they are presented in Romans is very remarkable -- it bears solemnly against those who are destroying them now.

L.E.S. Paul, before Agrippa, spoke of "our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night", Acts 26:7.

J.T. And James writes to the twelve tribes, so we must not lose those thoughts, because God is looking to His people of today to hold the truth as to the Jews when others are destroying them. Although they are suffering wrath from Him, as 1 Thessalonians 2:14 - 16 says, yet He will not allow others to touch them with impunity. They have a mark from God as Cain had and to their slayers shall be meted out vengeance; Genesis 4:13 - 15.

R.W.S. Who are the men referred to in the passage, "The tabernacle of God is with men"? Is that an allusion to the assembly?

J.T. Men is abstract. The tabernacle of God is the assembly. The nations, of course, are in mind in relation to the millennium, but Revelation 21:3 goes beyond the thousand years. The saved nations shall walk in the light of the holy city, and these nations, if we take those who form them individually, are men. But as I said, the verse quoted goes beyond the millennium, and I would think that all who are saved, including the saved nations, will merge into a spiritual condition; flesh and blood does not enter into the kingdom of God. God can do what is needed for the completion of His purposes. If He can change us in the twinkling of an eye, He can change the nations too. So all those who have part in the eternal state of things will, as to condition, be patterned after Christ, I would think.

R.W.S. I was inquiring as to it because it is a tabernacle, not the grand idea of the temple.

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J.T. It shows, I think, that God comes near to men. It is not a fixed idea; it is movable; love in God would act thus. God moves, as it were, in relation to men in His tabernacle. The assembly is the tabernacle, I think, thoroughly constituted in sympathy with God. So that it is available and made mediatorially suitable for divine service among men.

G.V.D. Will you say more as to John 1:4, "The life was the light of men".

J.T. We read it, and it helps in what we are saying. It is a question of life; we are brought into the assembly but we are dealing with life; and the beginning of it is Christ. In Him was -- not is -- it would refer to Him as here in the flesh. I do not think "In him was life", refers to Him in deity before incarnation; it refers to Him as Man, but of course, still a divine Person, God Himself; the life was there substantially, and therefore it could become light. But I think this depends upon movement.

C.A.M. I am glad you made that remark. It must be understood that verse 4 refers to Christ as Man.

J.T. It is what He is as Man that is in mind.

C.A.M. Would you say that God in this way has brought Himself within the range of man so that He might be known?

J.T. Life in which men have part is not what God has or is in His essential or abstract Being; to say we have part in the essential Being of God would imply that we have part in Deity, which, of course, is not true. Of course, He is the living God, but this refers to what He is morally and relatively -- in full result involving incarnation, for in this way only, through redemption, could He be in relationship with men; but God in His essential abstract Being dwells in light unapproachable, whom no man has seen, nor is able to see. Thus John 1:4 refers to Christ as Man. The life which God purposed for man is presented

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in a divine Person as Man and as in Him it becomes the light of men.

L.E.S. The footnote relative to this verse helps. It says, "This latter is a reciprocal proposition, i.e., it can also be read 'the light of men was the life'".

J.T. Yes; the life is substantial. It has the same value as the substance. It is not simply a reflection. The life is light and then the light becomes life in the christian. What is life in Jesus as Man becomes light to us, but then it becomes life also in us, and the life in us is just what it is in Christ. It is not simply light; it is changed into substance by the Spirit.

W.R. The Lord says in John 17, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world" (verse 6). Does not that suggest the work of God in its completeness?

J.T. "Have manifested thy name". That is a more advanced thought than life. Later the Lord says, "... that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them" (verse 26). That is wonderful! That is a higher thought than we are dealing with. What we are speaking of now is that Christ had become Man, and there was that in Him called life, and that life is light to men; not to angels, but to men. It is restricted; the reciprocal idea is restricted to men, but it becomes substantial in them as it is in Christ.

J.A.P. I would like to inquire about the term "originator of life", which Peter uses.

J.T. It means, as the note says, "one who begins and sets a matter on". The life that believers have, originated and was exemplified in Christ. It comes through Him. "The originator of life ye slew", (Acts 3:15), is a most remarkable statement. The Originator of life became subject to death, but that is because He came to die. He was also the Originator of faith; faith began with Him and was exemplified in Him. These things could not be predicated of

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God, but of Him who was God, a divine Person become Man.

C.A.M. Would you say that the life spoken of in this verse is communicable?

J.T. Yes; it is communicable, but only through redemption; it cannot be ours save through redemption. The Lord says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" (John 10:10); that can only be through His death and resurrection and the gift of the Spirit. "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone", John 12:24. It is through His death and resurrection that we come into this life, and the Spirit makes it tangible in us. It is a real thing. That which is true in Him is true in us -- a most remarkable and most blessed fact.

A.P.T. "All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being", John 1:3. Does that refer to His activity in Deity in creation?

J.T. That is right.

A.P.T. And does verse 4 refer to what He is as Man in communicating life to us?

J.T. Quite so; He is the light of men. He has come within the range of men. So it goes on to say, "The light appears in darkness" (verse 5). It is just what we are saying -- Jesus in manhood here: "and the darkness apprehended it not".

F.N.W. Does the thought of substance in the believer correspond to what is in Christ as "the shining forth", as is said in 2 Corinthians 4:6: "God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ"?

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. This word 'life' seems to require the Greek language to show the different ideas it implies.

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The Lord gave up His life, but that is a different word.

J.T. Yes; what we are speaking of is not animal life. There are two words, one for animal life, implying the idea of breath in a physical sense, and one signifying life as involving moral and spiritual conditions, including the term "eternal life". This latter is the word employed in John 1:4.

C.N. Is the life we are considering the expression of obedience to God's will?

J.T. Chapter 12 has a thought similar to that "I have not spoken from myself, but the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak; and I know that his commandment is life eternal. What therefore I speak, as the Father has said to me, so I speak" (verses 49, 50).

C.N. I wanted to have it made clear in my mind what you meant by saying that this life involved movement.

J.T. It does. What I have just read confirms in measure what you say; the Lord did whatever the Father said: "As the Father has said to me, so I speak", and He further says, "I know that his commandment is life eternal". But the parts of this phrase are not reciprocal; "his commandment" and "life eternal" are not of equal value; the latter results from the former. In the conflict relative to eternal life fifty years ago a well-known brother asserted that it was obedience. It involves obedience but it is more than that. And in the passage before us the Father's commandment is more than eternal life. Hence the Son says to the Father, in chapter 17, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (verse 3). That is more than obedience. Obedience is essential, but the knowledge of God is also essential to the realisation of eternal life.

C.H.H. And love would be essential.

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A.B.P. In what way would life be expressed in the changing of the water to wine in the first sign; John 2? I am linking it on with chapter 1: 4 -- the movements of life in Christ.

J.T. There were six stone water-vessels there. The fact that they were there and called vessels would link on with Exodus 12, where it is said that when the Israelites came out of Egypt they asked of the Egyptians utensils and they gave them to them; these referred to what was in Egypt that could be used by God's people and at Cana of Galilee these water-vessels were usable in the same sense. As filled with water to the brim, the water is turned into wine. This is typically a millennial scene, wine being a symbol of earthly joy, but it contemplates life as it will be experienced in that day. This was the beginning of the signs recorded in this gospel. They manifested Christ's glory; and His disciples believed on Him.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (13)

John 3:14 - 16, 35, 36; John 4:7 - 14

J.T. What is to be observed as regards John 3 is that it presents eternal life in relation to the gospel. I do not think we have looked at it in a definite way from that point of view, but it is perhaps the most important scripture that treats of eternal life in that relation; that is, the verses read in that chapter. The subject is presented from the divine side, running on generally to the end of the chapter. Then chapter 4 brings in the Spirit, as typified in the living water -- the power to make the life effective. We can see, therefore, the connection with Numbers 21, which treats typically of sin in man (the source of it being in view -- the bite of the serpent pointing to that) and how it is met in the likeness of the serpent, the fiery serpent lifted up. Then the power of the Spirit is seen typically in the water springing up, which corresponds to John 4. The thought of the Spirit is enlarged upon in the type as coming in through the digging by the princes under the direction of the law-giver.

C.A.M. Is it right to say that Israel reached eternal life in the wilderness in Numbers 21, or would eternal life belong to the land?

J.T. It belongs to the land, but it is anticipated; the light as to the serpent of brass (what God has said about it) and the springing well, is available in the wilderness. Eternal life itself is properly in the land. The Spirit enables us to reach it. Its setting is in Christ, as stated in John's epistle, but that is in Christ as He is, not only as risen, but glorified.

A.A.T. You have something more to say about the gospel and eternal life?

J.T. I remarked, as to verse 16, how God's love

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is connected with eternal life. You might say that it is the gospel setting of the great subject of life. We all know that it has been much used, not only by preachers, but by God working in souls, that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal". The love would seem to include not only the great gift of the only-begotten Son, but also the result of it in the gift of eternal life.

A.N.W. Is not the Lord's reference to perishing a wilderness idea?

J.T. Clearly it is. Numbers 14 stresses the perishing side; all those that were numbered, as recorded in chapter 3, were, because of unbelief, debarred from the land of Canaan. Six hundred thousand fell in the wilderness. Of that generation only Caleb and Joshua entered into the land. Jehovah said, "In this wilderness shall your carcases fall", Numbers 14:29. They had, in type, refused the gospel, as Hebrews 4:2 states. The testimony of the land that was brought to Israel by the spies was gospel; that is, in type, the gospel of heaven -- of the purpose of God -- as included in the testimony of today, presented in the power of the Spirit. All those who came out of Egypt, who were numbered, perished in the wilderness, except Caleb and Joshua, as we have noted. In this large number whose carcases fell in the wilderness there is a terrible impression conveyed of the judgment of God against those who despise and refuse the wonderful provision of His love made effective through His Son and announced in the gospel. So that the idea of life coming in in Numbers 21 becomes an immense thing. The light of the brazen serpent; that is, typically, of Christ lifted up on the cross; and then the springing well, a type of the Spirit, link these chapters in Numbers with John 3 and 4. Thus a great and blessed gospel vista opens before us.

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A.R. It was only those who were conscious of the bite that would reach this life?

J.T. Yes; those who felt the thing. They looked and lived.

R.W.S. Is new birth implied in the preceding section of Numbers?

J.T. New birth, of course, is basic and connected with the kingdom in the beginning of John 3. Afterwards the question of eternal life comes in by itself; not only because those who have it are born anew, but because of the Son of man lifted up and the Spirit in the believer.

A.Pf. Is the same end reached in the brazen serpent and in the living water?

J.T. Yes; Numbers 21 is typical of what we have before us in John 3 and 4. Chapter 3 is from God's side. The situation necessitated the gift of God's Son. But verse 14 says, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up", connecting the idea of lifting up with Christ, and that is, that He may be seen by all as remedial and attractive; lifted up in the universe, not simply on the earth, for the idea involved is going out of the world. He is lifted up -- elevated -- put to death, but as elevated; lifted up off the earth, or indeed "out of the earth"; so that it is the way out, and therefore eternal life takes on a very extensive bearing in this section because of the idea of being lifted up.

C.A.M. Would you say it is gospel because it is brought firstly into the place of need?

J.T. Yes. Numbers 13 pointed to the gospel, as we have seen -- the gospel of the land; that is the testimony the spies brought down; it was God's best, but was despised and hence the awful judgment executed. It was man's will and taste in refusing love's provision. Chapter 21 is the serpent's bite and a remedy afforded in the lifting up of the brazen

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serpent. The remedy is presented as an object of faith. "Mixed with faith" is a remarkable expression, pointing to the place faith has as a subjective power in the one who has it. And the idea of Christ being lifted up is an important element of truth, and hence should be understood. It is the way out. We are already off the earth; already in transit from the earth. It is not so much to stress the end, but to show that we are in transit; we are going out -- going out and going up with Christ as attracted to Him.

A.R. Was it the gospel of place -- turning from one place to another place?

J.T. That is the idea; the place is really heaven. The land is a type of heaven -- God's best in this sense.

C.F.E. Does being lifted up link me with another Man?

J.T. Just so; He is supremely attractive. There are three mentions of it in John: this one in chapter 3, then in chapter 8: 28, and in chapter 12: 32. The latter stresses the idea of attraction: "And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me". In our passage in chapter 3 the drawing power is not mentioned, but we can see it is involved; the eyes of faith are directed there -- as many as were bitten and looked. Such eyes are directed there and drawn there. The light of the gospel directs the believer to Christ; His attraction draws him to Him.

W.W.M. Would "whosoever believes on him" involve faith?

J.T. It does; "on" referring to the Son as an object of faith, appears four times in verses 15 to 18. This preposition gives the meaning that the Son is a definite object of faith. Faith is the thing -- the word has to be mixed with faith, as Hebrews says. The person that is bitten looks. Why? Because he has light. He has been told by Jehovah that everyone, as bitten, who would look upon the fiery serpent should live.

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A.N.W. It says that as many as looked lived. Then a further matter is the upspringing well -- there is energy to move. Would you distinguish those two for us?

J.T. The eye is directed by light toward the uplifted serpent. It is not the power of the Spirit, but it is power governing the look, the principle of faith, that accepts the testimony as to the fiery serpent. But the springing well is more than that. It is not simply an eye affected, but the whole person inwardly affected. Springing up effects a change in the whole person, and that is what John 4 contemplates.

A.B.P. Is attraction to be regarded as a law in the divine system?

J.T. I think it is a law. We have often remarked that John is astronomical. He uses that as a sort of basis of his gospel; that is, the universe is affected by influence, and the influence is really attraction; the power of certain bodies over other bodies. Is that what you had in mind?

A.B.P. Yes; science seems to support the idea that the principle or law of attraction controls the functioning of the universe, down to the minutest atom. I thought that might be an index to what dominates the spiritual sphere.

J.T. Yes; it seems to be a question of whether there is anything physical that is really static; whether movement does not characterise the whole universe. And if that is so, and no doubt it is so, it certainly ought to affect us as christians that we have come into a living system involving movement, all governed in some sense by what is above us; by what is greater -- God, the Supreme, influencing all.

A.P.T. Nicodemus came to Jesus by night. Would the attraction in Jesus there be over against the night?

J.T. Just so. It says, "But there was a man" --

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but; that is an adversative word which modifies negatively what went before. Men were affected by mere outward signs, but "there was a man from among the Pharisees, his name Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; he came to him by night". He had a conclusion in his soul which he had arrived at. He did not say that he had taken counsel with anyone; he used the word 'we', "We know that thou art come a teacher from God", which would be, I suppose, a reference to his associates or special friends.

A.P.T. And your reference to the idea that there is nothing static would be confirmed in the movement of this person, being attracted to Christ, and that he came by night.

J.T. Yes; he came up on the horizon as having personal distinction. In John, persons are stressed, as in the early chapters especially, where we are in the midst of personalities. The synoptic gospels show the death of John the baptist as opening the way for the Lord's ministry. It is said in John 3, "... for John was not yet cast into prison", showing that the Lord's early services were not official but connected with His Person. Therefore, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", chapter 1: 1. His deity is strikingly asserted in the opening verses. He must govern everything. His Person is uppermost in the mind of the writer.

A.A.T. Do I understand that in preaching the gospel you preach the Son of man lifted up; not necessarily on the cross but in heaven?

J.T. The cross is implied; it was Christ sacrificially, not lifted up to heaven, but on the way up. Morally He was on the way as He left the earth, so to speak; that is. He died out of it sacrificially. "His life is taken from the earth".

A.N.W. "... Lifted up out of the earth", He says; John 12:32.

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R.W.S. Would it appear from Numbers that the serpents were not removed and that thus the eyes of the Israelites were never to be off the serpent on the pole? They looked intently, as the note in the New Translation says.

J.T. That is true; at least it is true of the antitype. And it is intensely individual, for it is each one feeling the bite and then acting on the light and looking at the serpent of brass. Baptised christendom does not correspond to the type. What is in mind in the type is persons who are affected by the serpent's bite and appropriate the divine remedy presented in the gospel. It is the real thing that is in mind and therefore mere professors are shut out. We are not obliged to give an account of them. They are not worthy of notice unless they feel the bite and look. It would be a big matter to give an account of all that did not look. I do not think that God expects us to. Of course, He takes account of ungodly people in another sense, in view of judgment, but we are not obliged to number them. The christian's point is to take account of the living.

C.N. Does the same thing apply to John 5:25? It says, "An hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live".

J.T. Yes; the others are just left. Later it says, "Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment" (verses 28, 29). Those who are raised for judgment are noted here, for God has His books, and all in them must be accounted for. The books of God are to be balanced, so to speak. We know that those who come forth to resurrection of judgment are not raised until a thousand years after the others. That is not stated here, but it is

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important because it agrees with what has been remarked as to balancing things. They will all be taken account of in time, but as regards the gospel now, we are to count the living; for example, the one hundred and twenty names of Acts 1 and the three thousand souls of Acts 2. We count the living.

A.I. Why is love brought in in relation to the giving of this life?

J.T. God introduces the great thought of love in treating of life. He will bring us into that realm. "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son a propitiation for our sins", 1 John 4:10. There it is for our sins, but it is the world in our chapter -- "For God so loved the world". It is not a question of our place in heaven, but of the great blessing of eternal life.

R.W.S. In Christ lifted up. He is available to all. Divine Persons are not making it difficult, but so that all can see. Does that represent the divine mind in the gospel in connection with life?

J.T. Quite so; and it involves going out; lifting up out of the earth. The earth is viewed as the opposite to the sphere of eternal life. Christ is lifted up out of it, as we have been saying. In the future, when it is cleared of evil through God's purifying judgments, the earth will have part in eternal life, but in the meantime it is left. Eternal life is morally outside of it. It is an out-of-the-world order of things. Christ lifted up out of the earth corresponds with this.

A.B.P. There is no suggestion of love for the world as typified in Egypt; rather it is left for God's judgment. Israel's deliverance from it involved its overthrow. What would be the difference between that and John 3:16?

J.T. The word translated 'world' in John 3:16 means what is ornamental, sometimes used morally, of course, but it implies, primarily, an ornamental

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state of things which God had in mind in the creation. Therefore it is said that the Lord Jesus was in the world, and the world had its being through Him. Egypt is not a type of that; Egypt is typical of man's world. Christ "was in the world, and the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not". That is, it turns immediately into an evil condition, but it was made primarily by Him, a beautifully arranged state of things, and I think that would be in mind in chapter 3; God loved that; men in it would be included in God's mind. It was what God designed for man. We read of wisdom "rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth". Her delights were "with the sons of men", Proverbs 8:30, 31.

A.B.P. Then the attitude changes toward the end of the gospel, in the refusal of Christ? "Now is the judgment of this world", John 12:31.

J.T. Yes. "This world" is the evil moral system, the same word in the original being used. The first use of the word is in chapter 1: 9 -- that Christ came into the world as light, shedding light on every man; and then that the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. It is not the word for 'age'. It is the world in the sense of an ordered state of things that God had designed, and He has never given up the thought of it. It seems that John, in his gospel, uses only the word 'cosmos' to express the world, but this does not imply that the idea of arrangement is ignored; but, alas! all was affected by sin. The abstract thought, however, remains, and it is in God's mind. The same applies to man; the abstract thought remains, now perfectly set forth in Christ.

Ques. Is the world of Egypt viewed as an organised system of men, whereas the world might be viewed as the creation of God?

J.T. Clearly; "... by whom also he made the worlds", Hebrews 1:2. There it is 'worlds' -- plural; other bodies, other spheres, as well as the earth. The

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original word used there and in Hebrews 11:3 is 'aion', signifying "age, indefinite time, dispensation", but the contexts show that physical bodies are meant.

A.N.W. In John 1 'world' has every man in view. Speaking of the true Light, it says, "which, coming into the world, lightens every man". This makes the way, does it not, for the 'whosoever' of chapter 3?

J.T. That is right; it is a question of the context as to what is meant because, as has already been remarked, the word we are speaking of is used in a moral sense, too, and we have to judge the meaning of it, where we find it, by the context. And so as regards Egypt, it was just man's world, built by man, and God took His people out of it. But then He carried forward the idea of His world in the tabernacle, which was a figure of the universe. So that the writer to the Hebrews says, "He who has built all things is God", chapter 3: 4. All things would be the immense structure which God has built. And the Son is over all; so that the idea of God's world is carried forward, typically set up in the tabernacle in the wilderness. In certain aspects it is a figure of the universe, in which God is served.

A.Pf. The present evil world is Egypt, is it not?

J.T. Yes; Egypt as seen in Exodus is a type of that. It is the world as dominated by evil. John's gospel contemplates it as seen in the Jewish system at Jerusalem. As rejecting and crucifying the Son of God it represented "the present evil world", Galatians 1:4.

F.N.W. You were alluding to Proverbs 8. What is said there of wisdom is instructive: "... rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth, and my delights were with the sons of men" (verse 31). There is a note there after the words 'habitable part' which reads, "Lit. 'world' ... That part of the earth fitted for man to live on".

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J.T. Quite so; we know how the human race has settled on the earth in relation to certain physical conditions. God giving men wisdom to select livable parts. In all the continents these parts were usually found in the spheres of the rivers. That was so in this country -- the pioneers selected the livable parts, and God intended that. The mountains rose, and the valleys sank, and the streams flowed among the hills. That is all in view of man, and man being provided for. All this links with "God so loved the world". It was His own thought. There is beauty in it; there is ornamentation in it; and there is life-giving power in it.

A.R. It is said in Romans 7, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord" (verses 24, 25). Is that like the look at the brazen serpent?

J.T. That is the principle of it. Jehovah's word is light to the bitten person and as he looks at the uplifted serpent he gets relief and he gives thanks.

A.N.W. Do you not think it is to be noted that the brazen serpent comes in after the confession of the people that they had sinned, and had appealed to the mediator for a remedy?

J.T. That is very important, especially the prayer of Moses. Romans 8:2, 3 says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh". That is Christ lifted up; sin in the flesh is totally judged.

D.P. Do you think it is right that we should carry in our minds the distinction between organised systems of men that have become alienated from God through the working of man's mind, and the abstract ornamental system of which we have been speaking?

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J.T. I do. In Ephesians it is stated that the gentiles were affected by "the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience; ... but God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love wherewith he loved us (we too being dead in offences), has quickened us with the Christ (ye are saved by grace)", chapter 2: 2 - 5. His love as spoken of in this passage applies only to believers; but the world is included in it as in John 3. And we have to understand what it is that He could love under that heading. Clearly, it must be what He had in His mind in purpose as a place for man, as we have been saying.

A.P.T. Mark 10:21, referring to the person who enquired of the Lord as to eternal life, says, "And Jesus looking upon him loved him". What would be the inference in that in connection with John 3:16?

J.T. I would say that he was just part of the creation that had been damaged by sin. He was a grand ruin, you might say. The ruin retained something of the original beauty that had marked it. Sin had spoiled it. The Lord could not but think of that, being the Creator. He looked on the man and loved him, but that does not mean that he was brought into eternal life. He evidently wished to have it in relation to the earth, doubtless thinking that through it he would continue to enjoy his "large possessions". This would make working for it worth while. But he went away grieved. He was "sad at the word". The word to him was not "mixed with faith".

W.W.M. Do you think he would illustrate one who was not bitten?

J.T. That is probably true. He did not feel the bite. There is no evidence that he "lived".

C.N. Is it right, in thinking of eternal life, to regard it as a principle outside of ourselves, but

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received on the principle of faith, in one hearing the voice of the Son of God?

J.T. Just so; the hearer lives, but in John 5:25 to which you refer, it is the voice of the Son of God. In both verse 25 and verse 28 it is the voice of the Son of God; the first refers to men not dead literally, but dead in a moral sense. They hear His voice not simply the terms of the gospel. However it can be worked out, it is a question of the voice, and the person who hears lives. It would cover all that have come into life as living here in flesh during the whole period of christianity. Then in verse 28 those who have actually died hear His voice as in their graves, and they shall go forth.

A.R. It must have been as the Son of God that the Lord spoke when He called Lazarus out of his grave.

J.T. Exactly. He heard His voice "and the dead came forth".

C.A.M. Would you say that in John 3:14 it is not so much the resurrection as the aspect of the Lord's death that is needed in the truth unfolded in this section? His being lifted up would give us a new understanding of earth. You said that He died out of the earth.

J.T. Yes. "Lifted up out of the earth" would involve the moral meaning now attached to the word 'earth'. But literally it is essential to the divine system, which involves the heavens and the earth. The earth is God's footstool and it must stand in relation to His throne; but now, as we have been saying, it is corrupted, and the Lord as lifted up out of it, as working out our redemption, indicates that He is drawing us out of it.

C.A.M. All that is helpful. Satan was to go on his belly and eat dust, so there is that aspect of the subject, is there not?

J.T. Yes; you must be watchful. The earth is

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infested with serpents and we are in danger of them. Colossians is intended to meet all this. As risen with Christ we are to set our minds on things above, not on things that are on the earth. We are not literally taken off the earth, but as risen positionally and morally above it our hopes and links are in relation to heaven.

J.T.Jr. The spies actually had gone into Canaan. They brought back its fruit. I was wondering with regard to the teaching you are bringing before us, whether those who preach should have something of that marking them, evidencing that they have been in the place.

J.T. That is right. It is a heavenly gospel that is particularly needed. The land is a type of heaven. The gospel presents heaven to us as well as being the gospel of our salvation. It is the gospel of heaven as our proper destiny. What the millennial people of the nations will come into is somewhat on a different and lower level. The gospel here, as applied to us in general, means that we are being taken out of the earth; being taken up. We are not being prepared for the millennium on earth; we are taken off the earth morally; we are already being fitted for the heavenly places spoken of in Ephesians. "Heavenly places" is a peculiar designation and the Lord would keep it before us.

C.A.M. This would really prepare us for the "many abodes" of heaven promised in this gospel, would it not?

J.T. Just so; there is, I believe, the sense with many, in the present pressure, of proximity to what is heavenly, and eternal life is linked with it in John 3. The Lord says, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen, and ye receive not our witness. If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things

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to you, will ye believe? And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven" (verses 11 - 13). Now these are remarkable words; suited words, as preceding our subject. The idea of heaven is an extended one. Ephesians is "the heavenlies", as we have noted. "Every blessing", I think, must include eternal life as we of the assembly have it. Now we have been taught that eternal life belongs to the earth. We must look at that from another angle, that is, the earth in view of the millennium. We come into eternal life on somewhat of a different line. It is as the Lord is going out of the earth; going off it. For us it is not a blessing on the earth. It belongs, I believe, to the blessings that Ephesians contemplates. We are blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ.

C.A.M. That is a remarkable statement. The word 'eternal' would really magnify the word 'life' rather than modify it?

J.T. It has special force in the transitory setting of which we have been speaking. We are leaving the earth in the precious assurance of an eternal footing with God in life. The millennial saints will have it on the earth, but we have it on an up line, clearly.

A.P.T. Is the truth that the Lord is presenting to Nicodemus in this chapter more connected with the earth?

J.T. In answering Nicodemus, He speaks of the earth to the end of verse 11. He says, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" And then He proceeds with what was in His mind. He has already been speaking of Ezekiel 36, that is, new birth, but the subject of eternal life, as in John 3, is not simply eternal life as progressive from Ezekiel 36 to the end of the book. Ezekiel contemplates eternal life as primarily belonging

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to the earth, whereas the Lord, after He says earthly things leaves them. We now must understand that He is not treating of millennial matters when He speaks of eternal life; He is speaking of matters belonging to this dispensation. New birth belongs to the truth in Ezekiel, which, as we have said, has the millennium in view.

A.A.T. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him" (verses 35, 36). The Son has a great place in the Father's love.

J.T. He has a great place. You are going a little ahead, although what you say comes in. We want to get clear as to the two lines: the line standing in relation to the first part of the Lord's conversation with Nicodemus, which He regards as belonging to the earthly side of the truth. Ezekiel was in the Lord's mind when He said, "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!" It is as if He said to Nicodemus, You ought to know Ezekiel 36! But he did not know. Ezekiel reached on to the millennial day. The Lord is making a difference. He is branching off to the heavenly line and He brings in Numbers 21. He had already referred to Himself as "the Son of man who is in heaven" -- not going to be, but is, involving His own inscrutable Personality. It is very remarkable that that should come in here. And then, as I said, He proceeds to refer to Numbers 21 -- the brazen serpent and the springing well, the latter pointing to John 4.

All this makes way for the testimony of the love of God for the world. It is most striking that the Lord should bring in at this point that God loved the world. Is He not suggesting to us the great thoughts of God as to the heavens and the earth, the world involving both? He made them by the Son -- "by whom also

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he made the worlds". And is He not telling us that He has a special place in it for men, and that they are to be linked up with God and His love? But He is stressing the heavenly side, as I said. And in proceeding with that He has an administration, not immediately to bring in the millennium, but eternal life as it stands in this dispensation. So He says, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal". And then the next chapter tells us of the power of the Spirit operating, springing up into eternal life; not horizontally, but up; springing up into eternal life; not exactly into heaven, but into eternal life. It is an up line, as we have been saying.

In chapter 17 we have an allusion, I believe, to the millennial line. The Lord lifts up His eyes to heaven and speaks to His Father, but He refers to the matter of eternal life. The Father had given Him authority over all flesh, which, I think, looks on to the future. He should give eternal life to all that the Father gave Him; and He adds, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou halt sent" (verse 3). And then He reverts back to our great dispensation and all the glories that belong to it, connecting all with the men the Father had given Him. I think that is the way we are to follow the truth in this gospel.

C.A.M. So that we can understand what Nicodemus apparently did not understand -- that heaven comes first -- God made the heavens and the earth. If Nicodemus had his way it would be all earth!

J.T. Quite so; and he was not even up to that, because he remained in the council; he was not detached from the order of things that existed around him, whereas the Lord is opening up the greatest things. He said to Nicodemus, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?"

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F.N.W. In Ephesians 1, following the allusion to the spiritual blessings in the heavenlies, the apostle says, "According as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation" (verse 4). Why does the Lord, as Son of man in Matthew 25, bring forward eternal life connected with the saved nations? He says, "Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the world's foundation" (verse 34).

J.T. That all helps on the line of what we are saying. "From the world's foundation" refers to what belongs to the earth.

F.N.W. Is eternal life connected with that?

J.T. It is, as for the nations, but our position and blessings were fixed "before the world's foundation". In considering this section of Scripture we must go slowly and be sure, but we cannot but see that the Lord changed His ground after He had finished with the subject of new birth. He brings in the heavenly, and also that the Son of man is in heaven, indicating that heavenly things are more difficult to understand than earthly things. And I believe we have to keep this before us throughout John.

A.P.T. Is there a similar change to heavenly things in chapter 1, where the Lord speaks to Nathanael about being under the fig tree? and then He says, "Thou shalt see greater things than these ... . Verily, verily, I say to you, Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man" (verses 50, 51).

J.T. He is dealing with Nathanael, who is an Israelite "in whom there is no guile" as over against others treated of in chapter 1; that is, the two followers of Jesus, one of whom was Simon's brother. And Simon is another. He is by himself; he is called 'Cephas' which means material. He is material for the assembly. The Lord is going to have a building of that kind. And then the Lord finds Philip, and Philip finds Nathanael under the fig tree;

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in him the Israel of God is in mind, not the Jew; not exactly Nicodemus, a difficult man, although ultimately a true man. The Jews are extremely difficult to get into the truth. Any legal person is difficult to get into the truth; but Nathanael was not. He was, however, a little difficult. He said, "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" That was his inquiry, but he was amenable to the evangelistic touch. Thus John 1 presents most interesting features of personality; and we have to judge of these persons as to what each one signifies spiritually. Nathanael was a teachable man. As suggested by Philip, he went and saw Jesus. "Come and see", Philip says. That was a pointed and challenging way of appealing to the Jews, as the Messiah came into the world. Nathanael did come, and when the Lord Jesus saw him coming to Him. He called him an Israelite "in whom there is no guile". That is, we have in him material for the millennium; not those that are going to heaven in the assembly; they are represented in Cephas. So I think that is how we get on in this chapter; the persons who are mentioned indicate certain lines of truth. We have in Nathanael a man that is teachable, who will receive the truth and progress in it quickly. He discerns who the Lord is, naming Him according to the psalms with remarkable spiritual intelligence. The Lord answers Nathanael, encouraging his mind forward to coming glories. He should see greater things -- such as will mark the millennial world: "ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man".

A.R. Nathanael recognises another world. He says, "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". He speaks to Him as Son of God first.

J.T. That is beautiful; but see how quickly he took things in. The Lord says, in effect, You are ready for greater things, and you shall see them.

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A.N.W. Was not his guilelessness the secret of his rapid progress?

J.T. No doubt it was.

A.R. Are the Jews going to see another world, in that sense? The Son of God is the Centre of another world.

J.T. Yes. The millennium on the earth will be effected by the Son of God as the assembly is. The Son of God will dominate the whole universe.

F.N.W. What is the import of "his only-begotten Son" in chapter 3: 16?

J.T. That is a designation of Christ that is almost peculiar to John. It expresses His dignity and preciousness. First, in John 1:14 He is contemplated as "an only-begotten with a father". That is to stress His loveliness in such a relation -- with a Father. Then, in verse 18, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father" -- as the Revealer. And in chapter 3: 16, God's only-begotten Son -- the expression, as given, of God's love for the world.

A.N.W. Reverting to chapter 1, how do you place Andrew in the interesting group of which you were speaking? Is he an evangelist?

J.T. "Andrew, the brother of Simon Peter, was one of the two who heard this from John and followed him. He first finds his own brother Simon, and says to him, We have found the Messias (which being interpreted is Christ). And he led him to Jesus. Jesus looking at him said, Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas (which interpreted is stone). On the morrow he would go forth into Galilee, and Jesus finds Philip, and says to him, Follow me. And Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city of Andrew and Peter" (verses 40 - 43). Now we have these three men -- Andrew, Peter and Philip. They are all of Bethsaida, and it would look as if Bethsaida represents an evangelical locality. There is such a thought in Scripture as a locality taking on certain

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traits of the testimony, and I believe these three disciples, said here to be of Bethsaida, would point to that city as having an evangelical touch. Andrew brought Simon to Jesus, and the Lord finds Philip, and he moves in the same way -- he brings another to Jesus. The truth is spread when persons, belonging to the same locality, are characterised by the truth. To the Thessalonians it is said, "Ye became models to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia: for the word of the Lord sounded out from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place your faith which is towards God has gone abroad", 1 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. It is a great matter to see persons in a locality definitely taking on the work of God and becoming effective in it. It is a great privilege to be in a place where there is a work of God, and becoming characterised by it, to spread it.

W.R. Evangelisation and life go together?

J.T. The first chapter of John is marked in this way.

A.R. I suppose the kernel of what you have been saying would be on "the morrow" of verse 35. When the two disciples enquired Rabbi, where abidest thou? the Lord said, Come and see. It says, "They went therefore, and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day".

J.T. Just so; the Lord is seen gathering material for the divine universe. This is a chapter of persons who are linked with Christ. It is also a chapter of the glories of Christ -- expressed in the appellations given Him in it. Seven distinct titles of the Son of God appear in the chapter, showing that He is presented to be attractive. And it is to be understood in that way, for believers were specifically attracted to Him. John presents Him as the great attractive Centre and Gatherer of all. This movement is on and we must not fail to be in it.

R.W.S. Would Nathanael represent a person coming

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into things rapidly; and is Nicodemus the opposite?

J.T. Yes. Nicodemus is very slow. He is a difficult man; a genuine man, but slow. He makes a certain showing at the end with a hundred pounds of spices.

W.R. The Lord says to him, "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!" Does this show that Nicodemus was defective in his teaching? that he had missed something he should have known?

J.T. We may be sure that he was defective, but there was enough genuineness in him to save him. John makes much of what is of God in His people -- especially where there may be ground for doubt, as in Nicodemus and in Martha.

R.W.S. Referring to what Nicodemus did, in chapter 19, it is said, "... as it is the custom with the Jews to prepare for burial".

J.T. Just so; it is significant that only John mentions this; indeed, only he mentions Nicodemus at all. Nathanael, on the other hand, is a teachable man and learns quickly, and the Lord owns that fact and tells him that he is going to see greater things. This would strengthen Nathanael's faith and hope. John's comparisons lead to infinitude.

J.A.P. Does all this link with Stephen's closing words? He said, "Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:56. Was he seeing something of the greater things?

J.T. He was indeed; and in mind and affection going out of the world. Stephen represents the thought engaging us. The link is broken with the Jews -- the earthly element -- and heaven is opened to him. Hebrews has been called the book of the opened heavens; and Stephen represents those that look in; they see "afar off".

A.R. The Lord is given remarkable place in

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heaven according to Hebrews. We need to get our minds up there.

J.T. Perhaps there is a word for us as to "the Son of man who is in heaven". Stephen sees Him there.

J.T.Jr. Did Paul continue, throughout his whole ministry, the thought represented in Stephen? He urged Timothy to lay hold of eternal life, which is outside the world, and he directed the saints to Christ in heaven up to the end.

J.T. He was caught up to the third heaven; he belongs peculiarly, to the heavenlies. He is the only one who mentions such an elevation, but it is verified in what Stephen sees. The Lord is coming back to earth again. His feet will stand upon the mount of Olives, but He is never to be regarded as characteristically a Man on the earth. He is the Son of man which is in heaven; that is where He will be eternally.

A.R. "We see Jesus, who was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour", Hebrews 2:9. We see Him there.

J.T. Just so; that is His position. God is bringing many sons to glory. Hebrews is the ascending line for us, taking us to heaven. It is peculiarly "heavenly light".

A.Pf. Referring again to Nicodemus; is it not hard for a religious man -- a Pharisee -- to get clear of things that hinder?

J.T. It is; that is what we are trying to bring out. If one is legal, or if he has a reputation on the earth, it is hard to get him clear. Nicodemus was the teacher of Israel; not a teacher, but the teacher. That was a big thing. He had a reputation, you may be sure, and thus it was hard to move him. And yet he was movable, because he was genuinely affected by God. There is hope for such an one. As mentioned, one point with John is to make the most of the work of God, however little it may be, or in whomsoever.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (14)

John 3:35, 36; John 4:1 - 14, 31 - 38

J.T. The reason for referring again to these chapters in John is that we have in them the divine economy: in chapter 3 it is formally introduced, and in chapter 4 it is seen in function. Evidently this is with a view to the inclusion of the subject of life in the administration involved in the economy. The place the Spirit has in chapter 4 is essential to the understanding and realisation of life, which is the subject before us, for it implies the subjective side of the truth with which we are engaged. Then, too, it is thought that certain features of the early part of chapter 3 may be touched on again profitably; that is, the change in the Lord's discourse with Nicodemus. He had said, verse 11, "Verily, verily" -- this phrase occurs frequently in John's gospel, stressing particular truths -- "I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and we bear witness of that which we have seen": stressing what gives character to His witness, how reliable it is, and especially because He is about to give a new turn to His remarks. He had been speaking of earthly things, but now He is about to speak of heavenly things, connecting eternal life with these. And then He adds, verse 13, "No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven". He introduces this great fact to strengthen what He had said as to the reliability of His testimony.

And then the Lord refers to Numbers 21, saying, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal", John 3:14, 15. Following this we have the well-known verse 16, which stresses divine love in relation to the gift of eternal life. All these remarks

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are intended to make clear the significance of verse 35 which implies administration, and to show that chapter 4 enlarges on it.

A.P.T. Would the continuation of the truth you have been suggesting as coming from the Lord Jesus Himself be remarkably followed up by John the baptist in verse 27 where he speaks so wonderfully of the Lord Jesus? He says, "A man can receive nothing unless it be given him out of heaven", and then, verse 31, "He who comes from above is above all ... . He who comes out of heaven is above all". Would John be ready to take on the Lord's thoughts in verse 11? Ought we to be like him, to take on the heavenly truth?

J.T. These words are evidently to be linked with what the Lord Himself had said, as we have just quoted from verses 13 and 14. It is said in verse 24 that John was not yet cast into prison. In the synoptic gospels the Lord did not begin to serve until John was cast into prison. Therefore, as seen in John 3, He is speaking unofficially, because John is still on the ground in his ministry. It seems as if John is allowed to bear this wonderful testimony as to Him, which is, you might say, that in which he disappears. It is the very top note of John's ministry, and it confirms what the Lord said in verse 13. It should help us as to our subject -- how eternal life is an out-of-the-world condition of things; not stated exactly to be in heaven, but linking up with it, and on the way to it. And then the administrative position, placed by the Father, in His love for Him, in the hand of the Son (verse 35). Thus the economy, as we have said, is seen functioning in chapter 4, so that we might come into the position in real power, and not simply as a matter of light, but a well springing up into -- not heaven, exactly, but -- eternal life.

J.T.Jr. Would the administrative side be marked, not only by intelligence, but by affection?

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J.T. Yes. That is what every one who loves God and who loves Christ appreciates. "The Father loves the Son", and what has been ministered to us is the fruit of love; and surely as we have come into the system, love should be characteristic of us, in our service especially.

E.McK. Is this the first thing that the Lord administers after the statement, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand"? Is eternal life peculiarly important in that way?

J.T. Yes. The Lord is also telling the woman about the Spirit, but under the designation "living water". Eternal life is brought in incidental to the truth of the Spirit in this chapter. In chapter 3 eternal life is more definitely the main thought, but the Spirit, chapter 4, necessarily is greater. The Spirit enables us to appropriate it. The Spirit makes it effective, for the water Christ gives becomes in the believer "a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". That would imply the sphere of eternal life. It is not simply a matter of light or theory, but touched in a real way; touched in some degree, for instance, as we are together now; not, of course, in the sense of physical elevation, but moral elevation, that we are outside of the course of things in this world.

A.R. Like "days of the heavens which are above the earth", Deuteronomy 11:21?

J.T. I think that helps us as to the position of eternal life; lest it be regarded as identical with heaven. It is kept by itself, the elevation being moral rather than physical, 'an out-of-the-world order of relationship and being in which eternal life consists'.

A.R. Would you tell us what are the features of the sphere that we see?

J.T. There are several features or viewpoints which, as together received into the mind, aid it as

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to the whole position. John 3 and Romans 6 tell us it is the gift of God. The believer has it as a divine gift of love. And we learn from 1 John 5 and Romans 6 that this life is in Christ, that is, in God's Son. And John 4, as we have seen, shows that it is by the Spirit we reach it and appropriate it. But the idea of rule must enter into it, as well as love. Love enters into it, but the idea of rule must enter into it also. Romans develops it in relation to the kingdom: "So also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord", chapter 5: 21. And then in chapter 6 it is "in Christ Jesus".

A.A.T. You used the word 'economy'; are you including it in these remarks?

J.T. The word 'economy', of course, refers to administration, and it is implied in the two verses read from chapter 3: "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". That is the idea of the economy. It is a matter between the Father and the Son. The Father loves the Son. The form of words, "to be in his hand", refers to mediatorial economy. We shall see in chapter 4 how this works; how this woman coming into contact with the Lord comes into it. She is already in an economy, in some sense, because she has a waterpot. She had come to draw water, which would imply that she was looking after her house. She is not drawing for herself alone, but for others; and the Lord infers that. He says, "Give me to drink", meaning that she is in an administrative position; so that the subject is clearly introduced and carried through in chapter 4, and the waterpot is a sort of symbol of her administrative service. But that waterpot is left; meaning that she has been drawn into the new administration. She says to the men, "Come, see a man". She is now active in helping others.

E.E.H. Would you say that the means of appropriation of this new life would involve subjection to

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the Administrator, as seen in the end of chapter 3? There are those who would not be subject. "He that is not subject to the Son shall not see life".

J.T. Subjection to the Son is essential, and implies the economy. The woman is in principle and practice in it. Chapter 4 is instructive in detail as to how this was effected.

J.van Z. What is the difference between believing on Jesus, and believing on the Son? Why is the thought of the Son stressed?

J.T. The appellation 'Son' conveys the thought of Christ's Person in this gospel. The Person of the Son is the great feature of it, and He is here presented so as to be apprehended and to become an Object of faith to men. He is the gift that is given: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son". Then, as we have noted in verse 35, "The Father loves the Son". The Person of the Son is stressed in chapter 3, as demonstrating the love that entered into the gift; showing the greatness of it. Paul says, "He who, yea, has not spared his own Son, but delivered him up for us all", Romans 8:32. It is to stress the greatness of the gift, and, therefore, the love involved in it.

W.W.M. Do you think that the woman of Samaria leaving her waterpot would mean that she is now becoming that herself? She is the vessel now.

J.T. That is the idea, and I hope that chapter 4 will open up to all of us how, as believing on the Lord, we come practically into eternal life. We get other things too, but they are not stressed here. It is indicated, however, that believers also become part of the new system, and that normally they are used so that others should have part in it. Hence the woman goes to the men, having left her waterpot; meaning, as we have said, that the character of the new administration involves herself as a vessel.

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Normally, each of us becomes usable as he has the Spirit.

A.R. The woman is now operating in relation to a new centre.

J.T. Yes; it is a question of a Man. "Come, see a man", she says. She is delivered from what she had been in. But she is not merely delivered; she is usable to the Lord. He does not, however, send her; she goes. It is a voluntary thing so far, and I think we shall all understand that. God looks for voluntariness in us, although service involves conscription. Yet there is primarily the thought of offering oneself as Isaiah did; "Here am I; send me". However, we ought to get the basis of the economy more clearly before we come to these details. The first is that the Father loves the Son. A great thought to come into our souls! And then. He "has given all things to be in his hand". And then, "He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him".

J.T.Jr. Would Solomon, as a type, come in here? He administered in the position given over to him by David. That is, all that had been acquired under David comes under Solomon's administration. Would that fit in here?

J.T. I think so; and if we have time to look at 1 Chronicles 29 we shall see the transition from David to Solomon. David says, in chapter 28: 4, "And Jehovah the God of Israel chose me out of all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever; for he has chosen Judah to be the prince; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel; and of all my sons, (for Jehovah has given me many sons,) he has chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of Jehovah over Israel. And he said to me,

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Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts; for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father".

Now that is the general thought of the transfer. God had pleasure in David, but now He is having pleasure in David's son in view of the building; and then in chapter 29, verses 23 - 25, "And Solomon sat on the throne of Jehovah as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him. And all the princes, and the mighty men, and all the sons likewise of king David, submitted themselves to Solomon the king. And Jehovah magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him royal majesty such as had not been on any king before him in Israel".

Now these are the facts of the type. David being the father, and Solomon is brought in to be king. Solomon sat on the throne of Jehovah. I think all that is implied in the verse, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". Everyone submitting himself and believing on the Son has eternal life, but "he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life". This clearly is the position now, and chapter 4 opens it up -- how the true Solomon proceeded; for the Lord, in speaking to the woman, said, "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". Who is He? That refers to His Person. The woman had to know, and so has every one, to apprehend Him according to the greatness of His Person.

E.E.H. Would you say that, in the type, Shimei was one not subject to Solomon, and he suffered consequently? 1 Kings 2:36 - 46.

J.T. Yes; there were several others. The passage here would refer immediately to the Jews that were then insubject. The Jews as a whole were insubject

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to Christ, but there were others who believed on Him and had eternal life.

R.W.S. Is there then something moral in the introduction of the Pharisees in the first verse of chapter 4, and the fact that Jesus left Judaea? Is there a moral touch in that as over against chapter 3: 36?

J.T. Yes. I believe that leaving Judaea would be a sort of judicial action in view of what was said in verse 36, that "he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life". In chapter 11 He spoke of going to Judaea and Thomas said, "Let us also go, that we may die with him" (verse 16). Leaving Judaea evidently implied that hostility to Christ, involving murder, was there. That would amplify what is said as to wrath abiding on one not subject to the Son. John anticipated the rejection of Christ from the outset. "He came to his own, and his own received him not", chapter 1: 11. The geographical reference here meant that. Jerusalem was the centre of opposition and, of course, Judaea included it.

A.R. Does chapter 8 show that the Jews were apostate? The Lord said they were of their father the devil.

J.T. Yes. He said earlier, "for unless ye shall believe that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins" (verse 24). Then He says, "Ye are of the devil, as your father, and ye desire to do the lusts of your father" (verse 44). John's writings help us peculiarly, because we are at the end of the dispensation, and it is gradually, but surely, becoming apostate; we may as well accept that and face it. But over against that we have eternal life as believers on the Son, which is an immense thing, and should calm our fears. The Lord says, elsewhere, "Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul", Matthew 10:28. Eternal life affords us victory in the presence of death.

J.van Z. Is your thought that eternal life should

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be laid hold of now amongst the saints, in view of the rejection and tribulation through which they are passing?

J.T. Exactly. God is blessing meetings such as this. These special meetings are increasing in number, and in attendance, and in blessing. I believe the Lord is thus fortifying us in view of the last days; that we should not be overwhelmed by circumstances, such as we are going through now. We have an outlet in coming together, for we come into the region of the Spirit and eternal life.

A.P.T. Are verses 35 and 36 of John 3 clear and distinct truths that the Lord gives in regard to this great matter? There is no middle line. All as to this great subject is settled -- the Father's love, and believing on the Son, and being subject.

J.T. Yes. Definite revolt from it, or disagreement with it, eliminates us from the blessing.

Chapter 4 is the subjective side of the position; chapter 3 is the objective side. Christ seen as a definite Object of faith -- One on whom we are to believe -- and certain things accrue from faith in Him. But then that, in itself, is only light. Life realised now is by the Spirit, and that is chapter 4. And as has been suggested, the Lord left Judaea, and went away again into Galilee -- the place of reproach -- Judaea and Jerusalem being the official position. The truth of chapter 4 evidently involves our acceptance of reproach, and also of the kind of people that we may have to company with in the blessing. The woman of Samaria is an outcast; she has no status at all among the Jews. She is accepting that. She is accepting that she is a Samaritan, and she says, "Jews have no intercourse with Samaritans". She did not tell all the truth, however. She was claiming Jacob, but she was not really a Jewess. So the details of the chapter will help us to humble ourselves, and accept reproach, and tell the whole truth about ourselves.

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If we are to share in these good things we must be transparent.

S.L. Is that what is involved in being subject? The footnote in the New Translation suggests that it is more than obedience to command.

J.T. It is the thought of subjection -- that you are thoroughly subject. The note says, 'It is the obedience of submission to his person, not practical obedience to his commands, whatever proof this may be of the other; but it is not exactly the same thing as believing on him as an object revealed in grace'. So that it is submission to His Person. The Person of the Son is stressed. The present attitude of the Jews is in mind, and its most solemn consequences.

F.N.W. There would be reproach attached to the sixth hour?

J.T. I think it would involve reproach, because of her history. It was an unusual hour for women to come and draw water; and possibly it was chosen by her to avoid those who came at the ordinary time. At any rate, the idea of reproach runs through the chapter, and it is a question of the truth, each one acknowledging the truth relative to himself, whatever the detail may be. The woman says to the Lord, "Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw" (verse 15). She has come to the crucial point. The Lord, in what He had been saying, intended her to come to it; and immediately, as she asks for the water, He says, "Go, call thy husband, and come here". The Lord meant the whole truth to come out. It is a question of exposure. If we are to come into the full truth of this great matter of eternal life, and the worship of God, the whole truth must come out, because christendom around us is full of lust and show; reality is hardly found in it.

W.R. Salvation lies in the whole thing coming out. The same thing is evident in the woman who

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had the issue of blood; Mark 5. The Lord says, "Who has touched my clothes?" (verse 30). Knowing what had taken place in her, the woman came immediately and fell down before Him, and told Him all the truth.

J.T. That scripture corresponds, but here the person involved is a Samaritan and hence under reproach as an alien from the commonwealth of Israel. And not only so, but she is under reproach because of her personal history; she is under reproach among her own people. That all has to be faced and the Spirit of God is telling us here that the realisation of the truth under consideration depends on reality with us. So that the Lord says to her, "Go, call thy husband, and come here". And then she says, "I have not a husband". Well, the whole story has often been told in our hearing, and it means that the woman is forced by the Lord's way with her to tell the whole truth. That is the point.

C.N. Is the way this woman is reached suggestive in the fact that there is no sign done by the Lord to bring her to this great point? Does it show that His Person is regarded as causing the change in her -- this being stressed in the truth of eternal life?

J.T. It is a question of Who was there -- the Person. Office usually adds to him who has it, but no office adds to Christ, I mean as regards His Person. You cannot add to Deity; and the administration here is by a divine Person. The Person is greater than the office. That is what the Lord says: "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water". That is, it would stir up confidence in her heart that God Himself had come so low as to ask a drink of water from a poor outcast of Samaria. That tells the whole story and we have to come to it and understand it so as to enter into what flows out from it.

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A.R. Does she, as having had five husbands, represent religious looseness?

J.T. Yes. The divine marriage bond is not considered to be necessary. Certainly it would represent christendom, corresponding with the five porches in the next chapter -- five entrances, as if one can go in anywhere.

E.E.H. How do you regard the idea of Jehovah commanding the blessing in relation to John 3:35, and "If thou knewest the gift of God ..."? Does it involve the economy of which you have been speaking?

J.T. Psalm 133 is millennial -- the position of eternal life. "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore"; although the characteristics seen there help us as to our coming into it. But, as already alluded to, John 3:13 implies that before touching on this great matter of eternal life, which has a place in the millennium, according to Ezekiel, we are turned aside to the position of the Son of man who is in heaven. Of course, Ezekiel is frequently called son of man, which is prophetic, alluding to the coming day. But in speaking to Nicodemus the Lord turns aside deliberately to the heavenly side and we are dealing with that now. We are dealing with eternal life and how we have it in christianity. "And these shall go away into eternal punishment, and the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46), contemplates the millennium. But in christianity eternal life is a question of faith and the Spirit. It is not an external, visible blessing; our coming into it is by the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Chapter 3: 35, 36, therefore, is in the present tense, which would allude to Christ's present place in heaven; and in the next chapter it is a question of the Spirit enabling us to enter into eternal life.

J.T. Quite so. We must bear in mind the coming in of the Spirit from heaven, which happened historically.

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Christ went up and He sent the Spirit here, so that the position is a heavenly one now. In the future the saved nations will go into it. They will not need the Holy Spirit, as we have Him, to do that. It will be more or less that they go into it in a physical sense. Certain changes will take place, but now it is entirely dependent on the Spirit.

A.I. Would you regard the Spirit in chapter 4 as given to energise the affections of the believer?

J.T. Yes. There are two words used: one is 'well' (verse 11), which would allude to the whole matter including the shaft of the well, whereas the word 'fountain' (verse 14), refers to the water itself gushing up. It is energetic. It is, figuratively, the Spirit of God in us, and if the brethren will compare Matthew 25 with what we are saying, the force of it will be clearer -- that we come into eternal life by the Spirit, whereas the nations will go into it in an external way.

T.E.H. Would this woman be a sample case; the Lord teaching us through her how this truth works out amongst us?

J.T. Yes. This chapter is exemplary of the truth of coming into eternal life. It is not an external matter; it is an internal matter. When you come to the crucial point as to how you come into it, the Lord will bring up the whole question of your history. That has to be told out, because He will have transparency. When the woman says, "Sir, give me this water", He says, "Go, call thy husband, and come here". She makes no comment beyond that she has none. But that is not just the whole truth, and the Lord exposes that, too. He says, "Thou hast well said, I have not a husband; for thou hast had five husbands, and he whom now thou hast is not thy husband: this thou hast spoken truly" (verse 18). The Lord is saying, in fact, What you say is literally the truth, but it makes your case worse. You have

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had five husbands, and he whom now you have is not your husband. She says to Him, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet". That is where a real change is noticeable in her. It is what she saw. She says, "I see that thou art a prophet". Certainty marks her.

W.W.M. Is there a difference between her and Simon? She says, "I see that thou art a prophet"; he says, "If he were a prophet", Luke 7:39.

J.T. Quite so, she is certain of it.

A.A.T. Is that where her conscience is reached?

J.T. I would say that. Well, some might say, it is incongruous for Him to be speaking about worship to a woman like that, but the Lord's attitude is different. He implies, in what follows, that the woman is touched; she is now discerning as to Him. Even Nicodemus did not say the Lord was a prophet. He said, however, something that was akin to it: "We know that thou art come a teacher from God". This was a conclusion already reached involving others, no doubt, but that of the woman is different. It was evidently an immediate result in her soul of what the Lord said to her as to her history. It was a direct shaft from God. The Lord accepts that. He does not hesitate to converse with her about worship. He says, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers. God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth" (verses 21 - 24). Did He not mean something in answering her thus? He certainly did! He is now dealing with her as a subject of the work of God, worthy of being spoken to in this way.

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A.S. Would that be the reason why He addressed her, Woman?

J.T. Maybe. It was certainly an honourable designation, extending far back. It was the first word Adam used as to his wife. "This shall be called Woman", Genesis 2:23. The Lord now calls this person, Woman, and maybe He has in mind that she is to be in the assembly.

R.W.S. It may be that the shallowness that marks many of us is because we are not thorough enough in dealing with our moral histories as before God.

J.T. I am sure that is true. We probably all feel it, as we are speaking to one another, that we have not been transparent enough and therefore we are not as happy as we might be. We may have largely denied ourselves the blessedness of eternal life and of the privilege of worshipping the Father in spirit and truth.

T.E.H. Would a meeting of a prophetic character come to the same result? The person convicted falls down and says, "God is indeed amongst you".

J.T. Yes. That man, however, would go further than this woman is going. He is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested; and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst the saints; 1 Corinthians 14:24, 25.

S.L. It would have been a personal thing with the man coming into the assembly at Corinth.

J.T. He is said to be a simple person, or unbeliever. Apparently one who had not hitherto made any profession of christianity, but the power of prophecy would affect him as has been mentioned. I think it is to bring out the simultaneous effect of the truth where genuineness exists. The same thing is seen here, only the woman does not go so far.

A.I. Have you in mind that the prophetic word

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as coming from God, thus reaches the conscience of a person?

J.T. That is what it is for. The meetings we speak of as "ministry meetings" are intended for that -- to convict and instruct us as to current matters.

J.van Z. What may we learn from the Lord's word, "Behold, I say to you, Lift up your eyes and behold the fields, for they are already white to harvest" (verse 35)?

J.T. The Lord brings in the question of reaping. The paragraph beginning with verse 31 reads, "But meanwhile the disciples asked him saying, Rabbi, eat, But he said to them, I have food to eat which ye do not know. The disciples therefore said to one another, Has any one brought him anything to eat? Jesus says to them, My food is that I should do the will of him that has sent me, and that I should finish his work. Do not ye say, that there are yet four months and the harvest comes? Behold, I say to you, Lift up your eyes and behold the fields, for they are already white to harvest. He that reaps receives wages and gathers fruit unto life eternal, that both he that sows and he that reaps may rejoice together. For in this is verified the true saying, It is one who sows and another who reaps. I have sent you to reap that on which ye have not laboured; others have laboured, and ye have entered into their labours". The paragraph was proposed to be read because it introduces life eternal as in keeping with the way it is treated in the chapter; that is, the fruit that we gather is "unto life eternal". The sowers were earlier. The disciples are viewed as entering on other people's labours. The Lord says, "I have sent you to reap that on which ye have not laboured; others have laboured, and ye have entered into their labours". Now that is a word for us, because we have come in after a sowing time. Others laboured earlier and we have come in for the reaping. But the point for us

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now is that our reaping is unto eternal life. The labourers of a hundred years ago did not make much of it; they made a great deal of prophecy, the general truth of the gospel and the assembly, but fruit has been borne. The seed was sown then, and now we are gatherers; we are reapers, at least in principle, and the point is that it should bear on eternal life. By God's help eternal life has been made much of since. About fifty years after the revival began it was much stressed and from that time interest in this great truth has, through divine grace, been maintained, and no doubt the prayers and exercises of the brethren will be that it should continue.

R.W.S. Is the suggestion in our chapter that the disciples were not following closely in what the Lord was doing, and that that should be a voice to us?

J.T. Clearly He is intimating that they were not very efficient in the position that they were in. They had rather disqualified themselves in all going to the city -- one or two could have secured the provisions. What happened at the well was an administrative service of the Lord, and fruit came out of it immediately, but they did not see it at all. They wondered that the Lord spoke with a woman. Why did they not think that He might be looking for fruit? They disqualified themselves. I think we have to take that to ourselves. There is much that has disqualified us and is disqualifying us for the reaping. But, still, I believe that the Lord is saying to us that it is the time of reaping, and that we are not to think of persons and increase of meetings only, but to gather fruit unto eternal life.

D.P. Why did they all leave Him and go away?

J.T. They went into the city to buy bread. Surely they all did not need to do that. They are administrating in a way, but they are not in the true administrative service; and they are missing it, and now they come back and question in their minds as

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to what the Lord was doing. But as they request Him to eat, the Lord says, "I have food to eat which ye do not know", which implied that they were failing to enter into His mind and service. And then He adds the important verses which we have already quoted, but He does not make much of them in what He says.

S.L. Would you say that in a certain sense we are gathering fruit this afternoon?

J.T. If so I trust it is "unto eternal life". We do not get many additions to our meetings, alas! The Lord has promised it, however. But the point He is making here is not that. The point is eternal life. Whatever fruit you gather, let it be unto eternal life. We are, through grace, among those who in a practical way, form the sphere of it, where the Lord commands the blessing.

J.A.P. Isaac reaped a hundredfold and he became continually greater; Genesis 26:12. Is that your thought?

J.T. Yes. The Lord becomes greater in our eyes, and we become greater through the reaping.

A.I. You were speaking of the disciples going away into the city to buy meat. Would that, in any way, make room for this woman?

J.T. No doubt. That is a question of what happened. But we are speaking of what happened, and what, from the disciples' side, should have happened. They should have stood by the Lord at all times, but they left Him, and then God sovereignly brought in this woman. So that we have opened up to us a great line of things, especially in relation to the Spirit and eternal life.

A.R. Boaz told Ruth to keep close to the reapers.

J.T. Quite so. And she ultimately came into union with him. I am sure we should have in mind, in all our meetings, that they should bear on the great

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matter of eternal life, which fits us for union with Christ and supports us in it.

S.L. It is not simply going over the doctrine, but bearing on eternal life.

J.T. Just so. We are sharing life which involves the Spirit. John 3 is the objective side, as we have seen -- what God is in the gift, and to whom the gift is given; and chapter 4 is what you may call the "Amen" side. It is the Spirit that enables us to say "Amen" in the true sense. The Psalms are characterised by "Amen, and Amen". The first three books have at the ends, "Amen, and Amen", the fourth, "Amen. Hallelujah!" and the fifth, "Hallelujah!" What is in Christ objectively is one thing, and what is in us is another. What is in us by the Spirit expresses itself confirmatively in "Amen".

A.P.T. The Lord says, "Verily, verily", and we say "Amen and Amen".

J.T. You only find the former in John. There are twenty-four of them and I think they speak for themselves as to the confirmative character of this gospel; that it is intended to make the truth good in us, especially the truth of eternal life.

A.R. Would you say that every locality should set out in some degree the truth of eternal life? Should every meeting reflect it?

J.T. The "Amen" should be there. The "Yea" is the objective side, in Christ, but the "Amen" is in us. It is confirmation, as Paul says, "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him. For whatever promises of God there are, in him is the yea, and in him the amen, for glory to God by us", 2 Corinthians 1:19, 20. The "by us" is involved in the "amen".

W.R. Is that not shown here by the testimony of this woman? "But many of the Samaritans of that

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city believed on him because of the word of the woman who bore witness", John 4:39?

J.T. Quite so. But then they said, "For we have heard him ourselves". That is, the full confirmation was in Christ.

J.T.Jr. As to this, do you get the idea of a circuit in which there is completion? The Lord looked around on the brethren in a circuit. Do you not need that in the meetings, involving a spiritual current?

J.T. That is good. The natural relatives were outside. Someone said to Him, "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren seek thee without", Mark 3:32. They are types. They stayed outside and the real ones were inside. "And looking around in a circuit at those that were sitting around him, he says, Behold my mother and my brethren: for whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and sister, and mother" (verses 34, 35). So that, as you say, the idea involves the circuit, and the word 'circuit' in electrical matters is very intelligible. We know how quickly it can be broken. The Lord would not have that. He maintained the circuit. Let them come into it; we are not to go out of it. "Let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them", Jeremiah 15:19. Let us stay in the circle in which the Lord has His place. The Spirit is operating there.

D.P. "Behold, thy mother and thy brethren seek thee without". Did they intend to break the circuit by that remark?

J.T. In a figurative sense. As Matthew records the circumstance, there was one in the circle who seemed to have more sympathy with those outside and made more of them than those inside. You often see that. The Lord adjusted the position: "And looking around in a circuit", Mark tells us, "he says, Behold my mother and my brethren: for whosoever

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shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and sister, and mother".

E.E.H. The question has been raised. How is eternal life shown? Do you have in mind that there was in this woman something distinctive evidencing eternal life?

J.T. I think so. Of course the Spirit had not come and hence there was not much, but the work of God was manifest, and I might say, instantaneous, because the early part of the conversation shows she was a natural sort of woman; nothing more. But when the Lord raised the question of her history it was like an arrow that found its object. She says, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet". She is not guessing; she is certain of it. Then the question of worship comes up, and the manner of the Lord's part in the conversation indicates that there was some response in the woman. And then she has to decide as to the waterpot. She does not take it back. She leaves it. That implies that she is spiritual. In both these features there is noticeable evidence of spirituality; and then she goes to the men. She does not go in by the back door, the weakest point in what might be opposed. She goes to the men and says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done". She does not tell the men that she had been so greatly honoured, that such a Person spoke to her about worship, or about Jerusalem. No, she says that He told her all things she had ever done. She concludes, "Is not he the Christ?" The inquiry does not imply doubt; it is a reality in her soul, but it is for them to decide, too, and they did. I think that all these are marks of life, what you have in your mind, and what you and every young brother in the camps and training grounds ought to take to heart. It is a question of what is seen in you, the evidences of life that others can notice.

F.N.W. This chapter is marked by emphatic personal

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pronouns. Would that indicate that the Person of Christ is before us? It says of the disciples that no one said, "Why speakest thou with her?"

J.T. Yes. The truth as to the Person of Christ is stressed as we have already noticed. "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him".

T.E.H. Is it right that Philip links on with the gracious work in this chapter in evangelising Samaria? There was great joy in relation to it, although the Spirit was not given immediately. However, Peter and John came down from the apostles at Jerusalem and through their prayers and laying on of their hands the Samaritan believers received the Holy Spirit.

J.T. All the facts relative to the ministry in Samaria help in what we are saying. The Spirit is stressed by the negative: that is, He was not received until the apostles at Jerusalem intervened, as you say. That fits in with the Lord's remarks to the Samaritan woman. The priority of Jerusalem over Samaria had to be recognised.

A.R. The Samaritans said to the woman, "It is no longer on account of thy saying that we believe, for we have heard him ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world" (verse 42).

J.T. The truth became enlarged, and the word of God spread itself. She did not say that He was the Saviour of the world. She said, in effect, that He was the Christ. They did not take up that word. They took up a wider word, Saviour of the world. "The Christ" would specially apply to the Jews, but "Saviour of the world" would take in the Samaritans, showing that the word of God was furthering itself. The Samaritans had gone out of the city and came to the Lord, and later asked Him to stay with them, and He abode there two days. This indicates that the truth unfolded in this chapter, especially eternal life, requires and induces hospitality among the saints.

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STEPS OF FAITH

1 Peter 2:21; Romans 4:12; 2 Corinthians 12:18; Psalm 37:23

These scriptures, as will be observed, speak about human steps. They are used, I may say, symbolically. The allusion is not to mere physical imprints of human feet on this earth. They allude to walk as movement in a moral sense, impressions made in general conduct. I have read of four. The first alludes to Christ Himself, His own steps; the second to Abraham; the third to Paul; the fourth to a mature man, without naming him, so that it may include any of us. The word 'good' in the verse read in Psalm 37 is interpolated as if the translators thought that the word 'man' must be always qualified if we are to determine his character. The original word for 'man' here points to real or effective manhood, and his steps are established by Jehovah. Therefore, it is a most important thing to be one of the men so in mind by the Spirit of God, as one who is not exposed to the deflecting influences of this world, knowing that God is on your side, so that your steps are established.

Now, the Lord Jesus here is a Model. That is one of the features of Christ incarnate, that He is a Model. God has brought that idea in. He has brought it in in Christ, and His disciples, at least, should know that there is a perfect Model for them -- for all conduct and for all work or workmanship. And that is why, in setting up Israel in the wilderness. God took Moses up into the mount. He says to him, "Come up ... and be there", Exodus 24:12. No momentary visit was intended; he was to be forty days and forty nights on mount Sinai. But Moses was to be there. God took him up, as knowing him and knowing that he was impressionable to what was of God, and in

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taking him up to the mount He is going to show him a model or pattern. He enjoined him that everything that was to be made for the tabernacle was to be made according to that pattern; no deviation. Now that pattern is Christ. God has introduced Him here as Man in infinite perfection. So the verse previous to what we read in 1 Peter says, "For what glory is it, if sinning and being buffeted ye shall bear it? but if, doing good and suffering, ye shall bear it, this is acceptable with God" (verse 20). There are many of our brethren exposed to knocks and cuffs and unfair rebukes, and these verses are for them especially, but they are for all of us. If you complain against such treatment to your employer or your officer or your foreman, you are not taking it patiently. You are missing your opportunity of learning from the great Model, namely, the Lord Jesus who has been alone in such positions: "Who, when reviled, reviled not again; when suffering, threatened not; but gave himself over into the hands of him who judges righteously" (verse 23). He was a Model.

And so the verse we read says, "For to this have ye been called; for Christ also has suffered for you, leaving you a model that ye should follow in his steps". It seems to me, dear brethren, that as this thought comes home to us there should be a resolution to examine the Model, for that is the word. Set aside time to look into the heavenly pattern. It was shown to Moses on the mount. He was there forty days and forty nights and Jehovah showed him this pattern, and he was not to deviate from it in building the tabernacle. I do not know that I could give any better counsel to young people here than this: to give a little time, at least, to this pattern, to see whether it is possible to walk in it, to follow in it; for that is what the words "follow in his steps" convey. That is my first point. It is a question of a perfect Model in a moral sense, brought into this

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creation, for everything. We can go by it. We can be sure that we have God with us in it, and especially in having to do with persons outwardly superior. There are more overseers in this country than ever there have been before. God has so ordered it that young persons are put under other persons. Each is not his own master. He has another, or others, maybe half a dozen in the line-up. So that authority is pressed upon us, and that is of God. It is sobering and subduing and hence wholesome. The more it comes to the soul, the more you begin to look around for this Model, as to how you are to follow it, for penalty is attached to disregard of it, which is to be avoided. There is no testimony in the penalty attached to it. It is in walking according to the Model that there is testimony. God has brought it in, and He is bent upon having persons develop according to that Model.

Now the next point is fatherhood; instruction is to this end, either by model or mouth, but word from a parent ought to be the easiest to receive, the easiest to profit by. So I ventured to turn to Abraham as seen in Romans, not simply as a father, but our father as he is said to be. Scripture says he is the father of us all, so that we do not have different fathers to copy; the copy is one, both in Christ and in Abraham. Abraham is available to each of us in this sense, and so the verse we read in Romans 4 says, "And he received the sign of circumcision as seal of the righteousness of faith which he had being in uncircumcision, that he might be the father of all them that believe being in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned to them also; and father of circumcision, not only to those who are of the circumcision, but to those also who walk in the steps of the faith, during uncircumcision, of our father Abraham". As I said, he is not simply Isaac's father and Jacob's father and the father of the twelve

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tribes; he is ours, he is our model. All believers, both now and in the millennium, will lay claim to the fatherhood of Abraham, and that fatherhood involves a model for us as to steps, as to walk. He is first entitled Abram, but even before Isaac is born his name is changed to Abraham. The first means 'high father', that is, a man of distinctive character, a man worthy of attention at any time. And now God says, "Thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of a multitude of nations have I made thee", Genesis 17:5.

Now, Abraham dwelt in tents with his son and his grandson. He would frown on any irreverence. Jacob was fifteen years when his grandfather died. During those years specially he had great advantages in being a son of Abraham, and his father Isaac was in the same tent, so that all you young people here will do well to pay attention to the fatherly model that God has given you. I suggest that we have really only one model, for Abraham, in his fatherly character, represents God as Father, and His character is stamped upon every true christian parent. The believer is adopted as God's son and has the Spirit of God's Son in his heart, so that he carries with him the means of fatherly qualities toward his children. Therefore, the verse I read brings in Abraham as walking in certain steps before he was circumcised, lest the Jew might say, he is nothing to us until he is circumcised; but God, by His Spirit, says he is a father to us as much before he was circumcised as after. It is a question of the man. Circumcision was a seal of the righteousness which he had. He did not get it by circumcision; he had the righteousness before he was circumcised. He got it by faith, and surely it is your opportunity, all you young people here, to understand this: that what Abraham had by faith, is yours. As accepting it you are one of his children. Your parents also belong to his children. The Spirit of God is in their hearts carrying the fatherhood of God into their

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hearts as sons of God, and they are thus enabled to exhibit the steps of our father Abraham. Therefore, why not all come into this family, not only in word, but in character, in quality, in manner, in ways? All are to follow in the steps of our father Abraham before he was circumcised. The seal that he had was circumcision. Circumcision was a seal to him, meaning the flesh was not to be tolerated in his house, and his house was circumcised that very day, that is, all the males. So that God is saying things to young people here, if you belong to your father Abraham. Before his circumcision his steps were good, and after his circumcision his steps were good. They were the same steps; they were all through faith, faith working in a man. The righteousness which he had by faith was manifested in his walk and in his ways. That walk was brought into his house. Isaac was taught it; Jacob was taught it. And so Jehovah says, "For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him", Genesis 18:19. So that the thing is sure. And every one of us here today who believe are children of that man. This is God's way of making the truth intelligible and practical to us: Abraham's fatherhood is God's fatherhood worked out in His great servant.

My second point, as you will understand, is fatherly qualities influencing you, affecting your ways, that you should be walking in the steps of our father Abraham, which he had before circumcision and after circumcision; that he might be the father of all of us gentiles, who, although we do not belong to the circumcision, are children of faith, the faith which he had. As Scripture says, "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:26. That is a wonderful, but also a most practical thing, because it

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brings us into our true family in which there is a proper Model and in which there is authority; not only a Model, but as in Abraham, the principle of commandment, as is said of Abraham, "he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him". That means that what God has spoken of Abraham will be brought about in us. Abraham is gone, and Isaac is gone, but we are here. Today the saints are the flock of God. There is no other, and Abraham's fatherhood comes into it, that we might walk in it, as the apostle says, "... and father of circumcision, not only to those who are of the circumcision, but to those also who walk in the steps of the faith, during uncircumcision, of our father Abraham". That is to say, we are to walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham. It is a model for us. Normally, the truth is brought to you young people here through your own parents, as if they were Abraham and Sarah. They have the same authority and faith as having the Spirit of God and as they walk in the steps of our father Abraham. It is a question of his steps, practically the steps of those who have faith and righteousness.

You can see the advantage God has in working out His thoughts at the present time in view of the end of this dispensation in bringing in these models for us. The Spirit of God is involved in it as in Abraham and in every parent here; "to those also who walk in the steps of the faith, during uncircumcision, of our father Abraham".

Well now, the third feature of my subject is seen in Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:18. Paul is speaking about himself to the Corinthians. They were refractory children; he calls them his children; he spoke to them as his children. But now he is speaking to them

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about himself and about Titus -- two ministers. I am now coming to the ministry, not the parentage, not the model in Christ, but those engaged in the ministry, those whom God has raised up and whom He is using to serve His people. There are a good many of them. They are like Solomon's workmen, of whom there were a great many, as most of us know. There were something like one hundred and eighty thousand workmen. Considering them in the antitype, all of those who are in any way qualified to serve belong to Solomon's workmen. There are many being added to the number in most of the countries where God's work is proceeding, and now it is a question of their steps, not their preaching. There were three of them in Corinth especially: Paul himself, and Timotheus and Silvanus, working there at the same time. In the verse I read he is talking, not of Timotheus nor Silvanus, but of Titus. He says, "I begged Titus, and sent the brother with him: did Titus at all make gain of you? have we not walked in the same spirit? have we not in the same steps?" Notice the word 'steps'. It is not now a question of Christ as the perfect Model, nor of Abraham as a model of fatherhood, but of ministers, those who serve the Lord in seeking to serve His people. The apostle is not making a point of what they taught of their gifts, or their ability to preach, but of their steps. He might have talked at length about the way Titus spoke when he was there. He might have spoken at length of Timotheus, how he preached the Son of God, and of Silvanus and himself. He had said, "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him", 2 Corinthians 1:19. He is not talking of that now. In this verse he is speaking about the steps of Titus and himself. Some of the Corinthians were very disrespectful in the way they spoke about Paul. Young people are

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apt to be disrespectful of those who serve, but it should be remembered that they are respected in heaven. The angels respect them, and certainly young people ought to respect their elders, those who serve them, those who preach and those who teach. The question is now, however, as I said, that of steps. Every christian is entitled to speak of steps that are not according to God. We might easily disparage the truth if our steps are not according to it. If, for instance, Titus listened to stories told against Paul, and there were those who said, "his presence in the body weak, and his speech naught" (2 Corinthians 10:10), he would resent such evil reports, for he was thoroughly with the apostle. Paul endured evil reports, but a faithful God resents all such efforts against His servants. He stands by them and protects them. I speak thus because of the tendency, often manifest, to discredit the Lord's servants.

But in the verse before us the apostle speaks of the steps in which he and Titus walked. Speaking of Titus and himself, he inquires of the Corinthians, "have we not walked ... in the same steps?" They could not deny that. The ministers walked in the same steps, and in walking in the same steps they would confirm one another in their ministry, so that the assembly would be edified. I think you all will own that this matter of the ministers is very practical. As I was saying this afternoon, the gifts came from beyond the heavens. Think of the origin of gift! One may say, I was educated in a certain place and began to preach there. That is not the idea. As a gift you are from heaven. "He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles ...", Ephesians 4:10, 11. It is not simply that ability was given; persons with ability were given by Christ as ascended. These persons, morally, came from heaven. It is most affecting, as

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serving the Lord, to know that He sent us down from above. He went up there and received gifts in relation to men. "He has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men" (verse 8). The apostles were generally all united. There were differences, but they were in general united. The question is whether those who serve are now united in the truth; whether there is any rivalry, any ambition; whether we are walking in the same steps. So that we have Paul and Titus brought before us as to how they behaved in Corinth, and he challenges the Corinthians as to whether they did not walk in the same steps. These dear men were united. Titus was one of Paul's children: "my own child". He took character from Paul, and the same is true of Timotheus. If we were to see these three men together at a table what words we would hear! What impressions we would receive as to brotherhood, as to fatherhood, and as to ministry! The early christians had those advantages; and whatever advantages of the kind there are, it is for us to avail ourselves of them and walk in them together.

And then, finally, I wish to speak of the person that I mentioned under the designation of 'man' in Psalm 37:23: "The steps of a man are established by Jehovah, and he delighteth in his way". It is no question of whether he has gift or not, or whether he is a family man or not; he is a man. The word as seen here clearly implies that he is that. He has manly qualities, and his steps are established by Jehovah. You might say, Will the Lord undertake for me today? The Lord would say, The whole realm of christianity is yours. There is plenty to pray about and plenty to love. You belong to the men. You are pleasing to God and He will sustain you. There are several words used for 'man' in the Scriptures and each has its own significance. The word here is similar to what Paul uses in the exhortation,

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"Quit yourselves like men; be strong" (1 Corinthians 16:13), and it corresponds with what Jehovah says to Job, "Gird up now thy loins like a man: I will demand of thee, and inform thou me", Job 40:7. "Like a man" -- a person of that kind is under God's eye, and the day stretches out before you. The testimony enters into it; services enter into it. God would say, Well, map out your course. And you say, "But do thou for me, Jehovah, Lord, for thy name's sake", Psalm 109:21. That is what the psalmist says. God says, I will do that. God never fails us. Even if a thing seems hard, He will encourage you to ask, perhaps adding a condition as Elijah did in answering Elisha; he says, "Thou hast asked a hard thing: if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee", 2 Kings 2:10. He presses upon him intentness. God looks for that; He loves it in us. As our outlook and motives are right, God encourages assurance and liberty in us in our relations with Him. "The steps of a man are established by Jehovah". The word 'good' is not there. What the person is is expressed in the word 'man'. "And he delighteth in his way". God intimates to the believer, in those conditions, I am going to have a good day with you today. Do you think I am stretching the Scriptures? Not at all. God looks for good days. He has a heart; He has affections, and He looks for enjoyment, and He looks for it in men. Wisdom says, "My delights were with the sons of men", Proverbs 8:31. Every day is to yield for God; but how? In the steps of men, those who know how to walk like men. Not particularly men as doing exploits, but men as pleasing God in patient continuance of good works. Their praise is not of men, but of God.

One of them is starting out from his family in the morning; he has left it with God; he has gone over the day anticipatively with God; his confidence is in Him, and thus he is on the way to his business. He

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is taken account of by God. He is prospered as his soul prospers. He brings God into all his affairs. Adverse things may happen to him, but he takes them from God who will turn them into profitable discipline. There may be failure, but he turns to God, judging himself unsparingly, accounting that if his heart condemn him, God is greater than his heart and knoweth all things. He is God's child. His steps are established. So it is that Jehovah "delighteth in his way".

Then the verse says, "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down, for Jehovah upholdeth his hand". He may fall. That is admitted. As remarked, he does not fail to judge himself as to it. But do not be overwhelmed by the thing. Do not let the devil have any part in the matter at all. Keep it between yourself and God, and if necessary, with the brethren. "If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things", 1 John 3:20. It is His matter really, and He has provided means in Christ to meet it, so that it can be adjusted to God's glory in the assembly. The verse says, "Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down, for Jehovah upholdeth his hand". How comforting all this is, and how establishing also! It aids us in our steps and prospers us in righteousness and holiness in the path which "no bird of prey knoweth, and the vulture's eye hath not seen it; the proud beasts have not trodden it, nor the fierce lion passed over it" (Job 28:7, 8); it is the path of life, leading to fulness of joy and pleasures for evermore.

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THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD

1 Kings 17:1; 1 Kings 18:1 - 3; 1 Kings 19:12 - 21

J.T. It is thought that we may be helped in considering the sovereignty of God. Elijah peculiarly represents this great principle, both in his ministry and in himself personally; and then it is seen negatively in him, because Jehovah says, "Yet I have left myself seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth that hath not kissed him", 1 Kings 19:18. This latter will come in at the end of our inquiry -- what God does for Himself in His sovereign activities. It has a particular application now, in view of the revival in our own times. There has been a breakdown as in Elijah's day, but God came in for the recovery of the truth and the great movement is continuing. He shows in 1 Kings 19 how He, in Elijah's day, proceeded. Although Elijah had failed, God would use him again and would also use others -- Hazael, Jehu, and Elisha.

W.R. Why does the Lord bring this thought of sovereignty in in connection with His initial public speaking in Luke?

J.T. He refers to both Elijah and Elisha. The thought of sovereignty has a great place in God's testimony, and particularly in the well-known occurrence at Nazareth, where the Lord both read and spoke. He read a scripture, and then called attention to the principle of sovereignty. "There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up for three years and six months, so that a great famine came upon all the land, and to none of them was Elias sent but to Sarepta of Sidonia, to a woman that was a widow. And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and

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none of them was cleansed but Naaman the Syrian", Luke 4:25 - 27. The principle ran along as the testimony extended out to the gentiles through Peter, in Acts 10; and then through Paul.

R.W.S. Why is Elijah introduced so abruptly in this book?

J.T. Well, I think what we are saying is important. God is not always obliged to give an account of His matters. Of Moses He gives an extended account, including his parentage and the circumstances of his infancy, but as for Aaron, we only hear of him as he was about eighty-three years of age. God's ways involve suddenness in induction into the ministry of persons who have not been active in a prominent way. On the other hand, others are marked off from their childhood. Paul said of himself, "But ... God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb", Galatians 1:15. But it is said of Elijah, "And Elijah the Tishbite" (his first introduction) "of the inhabitants of Gilead, said to Ahab, As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word", chapter 17: 1. Although this is the first mention of him, it is indicated that he had earlier secret history with God. James tells us that he had prayed about the rain.

W.W.M. Do you think in regard to Elijah, when God tells him that he is to anoint the king of Syria, the king of Israel, and the prophet Elisha, that He is suggesting His sovereignty in relation to every sphere of the world?

J.T. Quite so; it comes out here in these two men: Hazael and Jehu, neither of whom was yet much known, and then the third, Elisha, also obscure; but, as you say, they represent different spheres of human life.

R.W.S. Do public conditions in the world and the general state of the brethren in any way bring to light or influence God's sovereignty? Do worldly conditions

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amongst the saints and idolatry cause God to bring in His vessels chosen sovereignly?

J.T. There can be no doubt but that He is ever ready to resort to sovereignty, and the conditions you allude to, seen here, require a prophet; so that we have a man not hitherto mentioned, who speaks of himself to the leading man, Ahab, and declares that there should be no rain nor dew except by his word. Why should one man be brought forward in this way? Why did God not just say that there should be the withholding of rain and dew for a given time? But it is not that. It is except by the prophet's word, "As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word", chapter 17: 1. It is not exactly a question now of God, or even of rain, but of who this man is. Who is this man? Why should he speak so confidently?

F.H.L. Just what is the link with such a man being raptured, and then appearing on the holy mount and, according to Malachi, appearing in service in the day to come?

J.T. That brings to light his after history, showing that God can overcome a failure in a brother whom He had sovereignly used, and that He could use him afterwards; He could use him even after he had handed in his resignation. Elijah went all the way to Horeb to do this, as if he felt he should signalise the act by being at the mount of God. And God might have allowed the matter to thus stand, but He did not. He used Elijah again, as we have seen, to anoint these three men, and He used him again in various other services, and then He took him up to heaven. Later he comes out on the mount of transfiguration, and then again, as you say, he is sent to turn the heart of the fathers to the children and the heart of the children to their fathers. I think all this should be very encouraging to us who have some little part in

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the service. I am not, of course, suggesting that we should fail, but even if we do, God can take us on again according to His rights in mercy.

A.C. That is what Ananias had to learn. He reminded the Lord that Saul had persecuted the assembly, but he had to learn the sovereignty of God in selecting him, did he not?

J.T. Quite so; he could not abide the thought that such a man as Saul could be used, but the Lord says, "This man is an elect vessel to me", Acts 9:15. That meant that sovereignty entered into His choice.

T.E.H. Does the matter of praying enter into what is before us, because Elijah evidently prayed twice in relation to this great exercise?

J.T. Quite so; and we are not told about his prayers as to the rain until we come to the New Testament. How much God can hold back, and how much He has held back! For instance, we hear nothing in Genesis of Enoch's prophecy, but we hear about it in Jude. And the names of the servants of Pharaoh who withstood Moses are not given until we come to the New Testament: Jannes and Jambres. How much God can keep back, and yet, according to His wisdom, how much He has told us beforehand!

J.T.Jr. Elijah's word in chapter 17: 1 is authoritative. There must have been something behind the words to enable him to be so bold.

J.T. Times arise when we must have authority in the ministry; so it is said that the Lord spoke with authority -- "For he taught them as having authority", Matthew 7:29. Surely it is part of God's sovereign right to bring forward a man who can do that. It required boldness to stand up to this king. He was a wicked man but still a man that might be feared, but here is a man who stands up and says to him, "There shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word". But, as we have noted, he prayed. That part was then secret. But had he not

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been a praying man, you can hardly assume that he would have such boldness. He had had to do with God in prayer, and God had had to do with him in appointing power.

A.P.T. The Lord said to Ananias, of Paul, "Behold, he is praying", Acts 9:11. I suppose that essential characteristic was anticipated in his appointment.

J.T. That he prayed was the Lord's recommendation of Saul to Ananias.

A.A.T. I notice in Luke 4 that the Lord spoke with authority and with power. Does that combination come in here -- that Elijah had authority and also power in connection with the rain?

J.T. Yes. He had power with God and with man. The Spirit of God reserves the account of the prayers until New Testament times. Evidently James was suitable to speak of the great power Elijah had through prayer. Even a matter like the account of a prayer might require a person who could speak of it.

F.H.L. Elijah "prayed with prayer".

J.T. Yes. There is a good deal of criticism about things current at the present time. Among them are the length of prayers in our meetings, and absenteeism from local gatherings by brothers who are away preaching. The local position is weakened by their almost constant absence. Of course, gift divinely provided should be used, but care for the assembly is also needed and it should not be neglected. Eldership and gift may be in the same brother and they should not overshadow each other. But the matter of Elijah's prayer should not be regarded as a mere incident. The fact that he had "prayed with prayer" and with great results, and that it is not related in Scripture until James, shows that there must be something special in it. It is clear that God keeps things back until the time arrives in which

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they can be brought forth with most profit, and by the suitable person.

F.N.W. Why is there more said in the historical record about the second prayer, when the rain came?

J.T. When on Carmel Elijah put his face between his knees, you mean? That incident is to be noted. He had already said "There is a sound of abundance of rain". The general thought, however, was kept back. "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; but the glory of kings is to search out a thing", Proverbs 25:2. It was the glory of God to conceal for all those centuries the fact that Elijah prayed with prayer that it should not rain. "Elias was a man of like passions to us, and he prayed with prayer that it should not rain; and it did not rain upon the earth three years and six months; and again he prayed, and the heaven gave rain", James 5:17, 18. God is showing that it was not an ordinary prayer. It was a prayer to be regarded in a special way. Therefore, not only the words, but the spirit of prayer, I would think, is involved.

A.N.W. What does James refer to when he speaks of him as a man of like passions to us? Does that mean he is capable of failure?

J.T. Quite so; not like the Lord Jesus who was a divine Person, nor even an angel. I suppose it is a reminder that if there is need of praying, we should pray. A matter concealed by God so many centuries involves glory, and it is glory for kings to search it out. That is the idea of what we are trying to do today. And the searching brings out what a man Elijah was. Surely all this is intended to come into our prayer meetings at the present time.

T.E.H. Elijah directed his servant to look toward the sea seven times, and the seventh time he saw the cloud. This must have had a forceful effect on his soul.

J.T. It shows that he would wait on God in his

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exercises. "And Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he bowed down on the earth, and put his face between his knees. And he said to his servant, Go up now, look toward the sea. And he went up and looked, and said, There is nothing. And he said, Go again seven times. And it came to pass at the seventh time that he said, Behold, there is a cloud, small as a man's hand, arising out of the sea", chapter 18: 42 - 44. That would show that he did not stop too soon. Paul said he sought the Lord three times about a certain thing. And the Lord Himself prayed three times to His Father that if it were possible, the cup might pass from Him. Elijah sends seven times. I suppose there is something in it for us to learn as to our prayers. If we do not get an answer the first time, ask twice or more. If kings are searching out they will find something; and that is what we are seeking as to Elijah's prayers. Clearly they were spiritual and urgent.

G.L. Should we not know whether prayer should be persevered in?

J.T. Well. John says, "There is a sin to death I do not say of that that he should make a request", 1 John 5:16. But he also says, "And this is the boldness which we have towards him, that if we ask him anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of him" (verses 14, 15).

F.N.W. In verse 41 we read that Elijah said to Ahab, "Go up, eat and drink; for there is a sound of abundance of rain".

J.T. Yes; the "sound" would be assurance that rain was coming, and of course that encouraged him in his prayer.

R.W.S. Would praying three times refer more to what is personal, and the seven times allude more to something that would be for the assembly?

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J.T. Well, the example the Lord furnishes in Gethsemane and Paul's remark as to the thorn in the flesh would somewhat support that. If, as so often happens, you are not getting what you ask for, you learn that you are not to get it and you stop praying for it. Paul decided that the thorn in the flesh was not to be removed, and he ceased praying for its removal. Clearly there are conditions like that. This, however, needs spiritual discernment.

A.N.W. And there are other matters which may involve the assembly and you give Him no rest.

J.T. Quite so; you keep on asking for certain things all the time; indeed we are enjoined to "pray unceasingly", 1 Thessalonians 5:17. That is a general word to us, but then John helps us as to what can or cannot be prayed for. In one case he is indefinite: "I do not say of that that he should make a request". That is for you to decide. Many ask counsel about this and that, and it is evident that they have not been definitely with God about it. In such cases it is wise to cast them on God so that they may arrive at the truth as worked out with Him. "If any one of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all freely and reproaches not, and it shall be given to him", James 1:5.

F.H.L. When Abraham prayed about Sodom, he asked six times.

J.T. Yes; God did not stop, but Abraham did when he got down to ten righteous. The incarnation of Christ shows how much can be effected on account of a Righteous Man.

R.W.S. Would there be something important in Elijah's name, meaning "whose God is Jehovah"? I suppose that suggests that if this name characterised us we would not be unduly seeking counsel of others; we would have the answers ourselves from God.

J.T. That is right. There are many questions being asked, and of course we should be ready to help

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each other, but very often one feels it is right to put the thing back on the person who is seeking counsel: he has access to God and the circumstances are immediately his. Why should God pass him by?

Now, to get on with our subject, we cannot speak in detail of Elijah's history, but chapter 17 certainly opens up many precious suggestions as to one in the Lord's service, and how God in His sovereignty prepares the way for him, telling him where to go, and how he will be provided for. Then chapter 18 says, "And it came to pass after many days, that the word of Jehovah came to Elijah in the third year, saying, Go, shew thyself to Ahab". That would be a deep concern to the prophet -- "Go, shew thyself", for Ahab had power in his hand to do him harm. One is challenged as to what his appearance suggests to others; how it affects others.

J.T.Jr. Do you have in mind that the man himself was in the full power of his gift, because the chapter brings out the wisdom he had and the power there was in what he said, whereas all this changed in chapter 19? I wondered whether the gift is included in the person. He shows himself.

J.T. Well, it is really a challenging matter -- "after many days". It reverts to his experiences at the Jordan and at Sarepta; what exercises he had for a whole year in this woman's house, and what he was conscious of in his own experience with God in it all; what he had to go through, especially in relation to the widow herself and her son. And now after all these "many days" what is he thinking about as to himself? Has he grown, and has he more confidence in his service than the man whom he faces? He had previously spoken to Ahab, and now what will be the outcome of showing himself to Ahab? God is acting sovereignly and in persons who could express the idea of his sovereign activities. Is this vessel suitable? Is he one that God can rely upon? How

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would he affect Ahab? What impression would he make on Ahab? We have also the strengthening word to Elijah, "And I will send rain upon the face of the earth" (verse 1). There is much that should be helpful to us all as to the personal consciousness we may have of what we are as vessels. You may say, I do not want to think of myself, but God is thinking about you as one of His vessels, and each of us is to consider how we represent God in what we are -- what we are by His grace.

D.P. I was wondering whether this second approach of Elijah to Ahab would require more courage on his part than the first one.

J.T. Quite so; I was thinking of that. "Go, shew thyself to Ahab" -- the great monarch, as we might call him, for the moment. And then we have to think of Elijah, what he had been privately, and how he is to show up in the presence of Ahab.

R.W.S. He had been, according to chapter 17, suffering as in the public conditions due to the famine, and then he is praying publicly in chapter 18. Would that equip him morally to face Ahab?

J.T. I think that is the way to look at it -- his extraordinary experience with the ravens at the Jordan, and then the experience at Sarepta with the woman whose son was restored, which apparently he had to go through to reach the divine result. Now it is a question of the man himself as having experienced all this. Jehovah said, "Go, shew thyself to Ahab". Then we have the matter of Obadiah, and what kind of man he was; how he had continued with Ahab, but he thought of the servants of Jehovah, the prophets of God, and had kept them in a cave.

F.H.L. Would Peter have anything of this in mind in Acts at the Beautiful gate, when he said, "Look on us"?

J.T. That fits in. So it is a question of what

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impression any one of us would make as a representative of God in His service.

D.P. Is the personality of Elijah involved in his showing himself?

J.T. It is personality. We do not want to be egotistical, of course, but at the same time there is the idea of your ego; "I, myself"; what you are in this sense in the testimony of God. The Lord calls Paul an "elect vessel to me". So He would not be ashamed of him. What a man he was! How pleasing he must have been to the Lord!

F.N.W. He could say to Agrippa, "Such as I also am".

G.V.D. Is there not in a measure some of this going on now, this showing ourselves before kings, in the way in which our younger brethren are being called upon in a public way?

J.T. That is the idea, that they are called upon to show themselves before persons of distinction. We might call them "kings" because they are representative of God in an administrative way; and the brothers in the forces are representative of God in a spiritual sense.

J.H.H. Was Obadiah not up to showing himself?

J.T. You will notice that the Spirit of God gives us a record about him first. "And Ahab called Obadiah, who was the steward of his house"; and now we have a bracket: "(Now Obadiah feared Jehovah greatly; and it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of Jehovah, that Obadiah took a hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and maintained them with bread and water)", chapter 18: 3, 4. That is put down there. And then the Spirit proceeds with the narrative, in which we are told more about this man. Later he tells us about himself, which is remarkable. When he meets Elijah, he says, "Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of Jehovah, how I hid a

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hundred men of Jehovah's prophets by fifty in a cave, and maintained them with bread and water?" (verse 13). He was conscious of being a man of note; that he had done something. He had hid one hundred prophets in a cave, and was saying to Elijah, Do you not know that? Of course, we must note that here Obadiah is concerned about his life.

T.E.H. We may be able to help our young brothers as to what they put down on paper, but they will have to appear themselves, counting on God in view of their own experience with Him relative to it.

J.T. Yes. They are summoned to the Board and asked questions, and it is a very real test, but I think God is greatly interested in what comes out.

D.P. Do the sovereignty of God and the government of God run along together?

J.T. Quite so; that is what enters into the whole history. What a man Jehovah had in Elijah, and what a man Jehovah is dealing with in Ahab! He has chosen His man to deal with him, and he is successful.

T.E.H. Do you understand by "my word" that it is left with the prophet?

J.T. It is to bring out, I think, the man himself; that he could say that; it must involve that he had to do with God, just as Moses had to do with God. Elijah had to do with God in prayer, and it characterised him -- "whose God is Jehovah" is the meaning of his name.

R.W.S. Does sovereignty apply to gift or to the whole vessel?

J.T. To the whole vessel. Balaam said some of the most wonderful things, but there was nothing in the vessel at all. It is God taking up any vessel and compelling him to serve, but that is not the idea in Elijah. He is formed secretly -- "whose God is Jehovah". That could not be said of Balaam or anybody like him.

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I think we might now refer to chapter 19, to the remnant that God had reserved to Himself, of which apparently Elijah did not know -- a humbling thing.

J.T.Jr. Did you connect Elijah's breakdown with the present position?

J.T. Yes. I think there is at this moment a striking counterpart to it. We may well thank God for it in this broken day. God is still carrying on His testimony, and it is through the persons He has reserved for Himself.

A.P.T. Verse 9 says, "And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, and he said to him, What doest thou here, Elijah?" And in chapter 17 it also says, "And the word of Jehovah came to him" (verse 2).

J.T. This chapter is remarkable as bringing out how far the servant had gone. He is failing, and God is saying to him, I am going to care for you even in the failure. "And Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, So do the gods to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by tomorrow about this time! And when he saw that, he arose, and went for his life, and came to Beer-sheba, which belongs to Judah, and left his servant there. And he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a certain broom-bush, and requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough: now, Jehovah, take my life; for I am not better than my fathers. And he lay down and slept under the broom-bush" (verses 2 - 4). I just refer to the earlier remarks of the Spirit about his failure; how God follows him up. God is saying to us, He is an elect vessel, but he is failing, and I am going to go with him -- a very touching thing. He provides for him two meals in one day, and Elijah went in the strength of that food for forty days to mount Horeb. Elijah is resigning his commission. But God is, we may say, going through with him, and so he becomes reinstated. With a view to this we have the three

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elements of divine power mentioned: the wind, the earthquake and the fire, and then it is said: "And after the fire, a soft gentle voice" -- a beautiful touch as to God's patience with any vessel whom God has selected, who may have broken down. He is coming to him in the breakdown so as to carry him through.

A.N.W. Do you look at the anointing of Elisha as a governmental answer to Elijah's failure?

J.T. That Elisha was anointed first is presented as Elijah's action without any reason given. It is remarkable that Elisha is the last mentioned but he is the first one that Elijah anoints. It is clear that Elijah is not governed by jealousy. If he were, he would not anoint first the one specified to be prophet in his stead. It seems as if God would leave it to him. What will he do now? Here are these three men, and he goes first to the one mentioned last, who is to be in his stead, as Jehovah says, "Go, return on thy way ... and ... anoint Hazael king over Syria; and Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint king over Israel; and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah shalt thou anoint prophet in thy stead" -- and he goes to anoint Elisha first. Jehovah does not tell him to do that.

G.V.D. Would it suggest that God's first thought in sovereignty is the welfare of His people?

J.T. That is what comes out, and the moral greatness of the man is again coming into evidence; there is power in his mantle, and the manner of his approach to Elisha brings this fact out. He does not say anything to him; he simply casts his mantle on him, and Elisha is influenced by it.

W.W.M. Would you say that God can help in weakness, but not where there is will at work?

J.T. Yes.

F.H.L. God telling him that He has seven thousand left in Israel that had now bowed to Baal must have affected the prophet.

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J.T. Yes. That is another matter that enters into the present time -- what God had reserved for himself. And they belonged to Israel.

W.R. That is confirmed in Romans 11.

J.T. It was "the divine answer" to Elijah -- a very fine phrase. "I have left myself seven thousand in Israel". God has done it, and it is a principle that He maintains now. The remnant belongs to the original.

W.R. "Thus, then, in the present time also there has been a remnant according to election of grace", Romans 11:5.

J.T. And God says it is of the assembly. He is not going out of it. He is not choosing anything outside, but He has left it to Himself. Elijah has not known of it.

A.P.T. Would Elisha represent the principle of the election of grace?

J.T. Quite so. He represents grace. Elijah comes to him first with the idea of the power of his mantle. Elisha was a man in ordinary affairs. He was ploughing. Elisha says, I want to kiss my father and my mother, but Elijah says, "What have I done to thee?"

R.W.S. Just where is Elijah adjusted? He had said, "I have been very jealous for Jehovah the God of hosts" (verse 14). And then in verse 15, "And Jehovah said to him, Go". Is adjustment in that?

J.T. "Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus". It is in the imperative, and then in verse 19: "And he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat". That shows he is now moving according to the divine mind. He is moving under divine orders, and that is where you are conscious of being right.

Rem. The first two names mentioned are more directly connected with judgment.

J.T. I think it is all ordered divinely, for the vessel of grace is anointed first, and brought into God's service in the remarkable way mentioned.

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Elijah casts his mantle on him. Elisha says to Elijah: "Let me, I pray thee, kiss my father and my mother, and I will follow thee". But notice, he had left the oxen and had run after Elijah. There is movement with him, and then Elijah said, "Go back again; for what have I done to thee? And he returned back from him, and took the yoke of oxen, and killed them, and boiled their flesh with the implements of the oxen, and gave to the people, and they ate. And he arose and went after Elijah" (verses 20, 21). Instead of going to kiss his parents he is now providing for the people. These things mark Elisha's induction into the service. Elijah had already gone back into it himself, and Elisha is now brought into it. He is formally in the testimony, in the system of things that God has inaugurated. The system has not been abrogated but still stands, and the persons who are reserved for God belong to it.

F.N.W. The one who is chosen sovereignly himself does well to recognise God's sovereignty in others. Paul in 2 Timothy, in speaking of Demas' defection does not overlook the fact that there were those who were servants of God. He even tells Timothy to bring his cloak.

J.T. Quite so; and in the cloak there is the suggestion of a link with Elijah. Elijah's cloak would point to the measure of a man needed for the continuance of the testimony.

J.T.Jr. I suppose the power of the cloak came up in regard to the selection of Silas and the rejection of Mark. Personality came out in the fact that it would preclude personal feeling again governing the ministry as in the case of Mark.

J.T. Paul directed Timothy to bring Mark for he was profitable to him for ministry. Mark had left Paul, but he is restored now. The idea of the seven thousand that Jehovah had left for Himself would be that they are true and God is carrying on with them.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (15)

John 5:17 - 47

J.T. I think the brethren know that at these readings we are still considering the subject of life. It is thought that we should look at John 5 at this time, where the thought of life is connected peculiarly with the divine Persons. The chapter stands connected with the remarkable sign which is recorded there, and which leads up to the great subject now before us, so that verse 17 says, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work". The Father and the Son are introduced in this informal way by the Lord Himself, as working. The Father is mentioned first as working, and then the Son.

A.N.W. Would you say the subject is in relation to divine Persons? Verse 26 says, "For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself".

J.T. That is a striking evidence of what has been remarked, bringing the two Persons into our view as having life, each in Himself. The Father has given to the Son to have life in Himself. So that it is the economy that is in mind, not the relations of divine Persons in their abstract condition, but as come out into an administration where the Father comes first, then the Son, and then the Spirit; so that all proceeds from the Father, and if the Son has life in Himself, it is as given to Him by the Father. And what enters into this is the matter of quickening, which may be perhaps taken in its order. We have to keep in mind that the divine Persons are introduced in a specific way, and we can take each item relative to life by itself and compare it to see how it bears on the great subject of the chapter; that is, the Father and the Son operating here. So that the Lord says,

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"Verily, verily, I say to you. The Son can do nothing of himself save whatever he sees the Father doing: for whatever things he does, these things also the Son does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does; and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will" (verses 19 - 21). So that the subject of quickening, bearing on our subject, comes into order here in its importance. It is a basic thought. We know that the Spirit quickens, too, and we learn earlier in this gospel that He operates in the new birth, chapter 3, but now it is the Father and the Son in this service, this work of quickening.

A.R. Does the thought of quickening suggest the idea of death in the person that is operated upon?

J.T. That is the idea. New birth is hardly that. It is not presented that way, but the need for quickening implies that the person is morally dead.

A.R. Is it like Ephesians 2 in that sense, that we, being dead in offences, have been quickened with the Christ?

J.T. It is the same truth only presented in John in relation to the Father and the Son. In Ephesians, it is God: "... because of his great love wherewith he loved us (we too being dead in offences,) has quickened us with the Christ, (ye are saved by grace,) and has raised us up together" (verses 4 - 6).

C.A.M. Would you say how this links with the fact that the last Adam is a quickening Spirit?

J.T. Well, that is a statement made in 1 Corinthians 15 in relation to the great subject of that chapter; that is, the subject of resurrection. It is the last Adam; not spoken of there as the Son, or Son of man, but the last Adam, a quickening spirit. The allusion to Him as a Man is very striking.

C.A.M. Would you say that in this chapter the

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idea of the Father and the Son covers a wider range than that?

J.T. I think so; it is the widest range of our subject that we can get. It is a question of life in John. We have come a good way in John on this subject, and this is, you might say, the acme of it -- the Father and the Son occupied in the same operation, the work of quickening.

J.S. Is verse 17 the work of the Father and the Son in view of the restoration of life and rest; as though the creation had been disturbed?

J.T. Well, it is a question of death, sin having entered by man; death following on that necessitated that God should operate; but the Lord calls Him the Father here. Undoubtedly the allusion is to what happened immediately after the creation was interfered with -- this moral question of sin and death consequent upon it. I believe that is what is in mind. And this chapter is the divine answer to all that, as to how it is met.

A.N.W. Two actions of the Father are mentioned, and one of the Son. The Father raises the dead and quickens them, quickening mentioned after the raising; but the Son quickens whom He will. Will you say a word as to that?

J.T. Verse 20 has to be considered from the standpoint of love, that is, "the Father loves the Son". We had this statement already in chapter 3 in relation to the economy. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" (verse 35). But here, "the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does; and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will" (verses 20, 21). Thus we are right into our subject in this chapter; that is, the operational services of divine Persons, and the Lord is stressing that the Father has the first

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place, as in all else, and that the Son moves according to what He sees the Father doing. "He will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will". Well now, the question comes up at once as to whether raising is first. There is resurrection of the dead without quickening; that is, of the wicked dead, but verse 21 refers evidently to the living; I mean, those who are morally dead, but still, those who are the objects of divine counsels. And I would say that the idea of resurrection is one thing by itself. There are really two things in one: the quickening and the raising. Ephesians puts the quickening first and rather presents our being raised up in the sense of elevation; whereas here the raising is put first. It is a question therefore of the importance of each item, not the order in which they take place. But the resurrection is a great thought; a great public thought; a great witness on God's part. Quickening is less important in that sense, I would think; it is more spiritual and it is done inwardly. Raising up involves being taken out of the grave.

A.N.W. Does raising apply to the body and quickening to the soul or the spirit?

J.T. Well, quickening refers to the body, too. Now, if you look at Romans 8:11, for instance, you will see this: "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". So that the idea of quickening attaches to our bodies. It is the voice of the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, we are told in this chapter -- John 5"Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that

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have done evil, to resurrection of judgment". I referred to this verse because it is said they shall go forth -- well, the idea of quickening must be there to enable them to go forth. There is power inwardly, and evidently it extends to the body because they come out, or go forth.

J.S. Do we see that somewhat enlarged in chapter 11? The Lord says, "Lazarus, come forth".

J.T. Quite so; the dead came forth. So that we are to consider this great matter according to all the facts relative to it; that quickening, it would appear, begins inwardly, if there be any lapse of time at all. I am speaking now of a person actually being raised, that even if we may speak of time -- it is the twinkling of an eye -- it hardly enters into the matter. But if we do consider it at all it would seem that the operation of quickening must begin inwardly and work outwardly. So that there is the hearing of the voice of the Son of God, and then immediately there is the idea of the going forth, which implies that the body, as moving, has power in it. The whole man is affected; therefore he goes forth.

A.R.C. Well, then, would the scripture in Matthew 27, speaking of the saints arising from their graves, bear out what you are saying about going forth? It reads, "And the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many" (verses 52, 53).

J.T. That confirms what we are saying, that they did not immediately arise; it was after Christ's arising. But the incident is brought in here to show that it is real resurrection for a testimony at that time, and, of course, indicates what the resurrection will be; that there is the principle of going forth. But then, also, there is the hearing before they go forth.

R.W.S. "All who are in the tombs shall hear his voice" -- does this refer to all dead?

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J.T. Well, of course, it is only the first part of John 5:29 that could conform with Matthew 27. The wicked dead are not contemplated as immediately coming forth. We know from Revelation that they come out a thousand years later, so that we are not considering these coming out. The order is: first, hearing the voice of the Son of God, and then coming forth -- coming forth to the resurrection of life. But it is those who have practised good, notice; that is, we have in this passage a moral element applied to believers in coming out of their tombs.

J.S. Is the first resurrection a love matter? I was thinking that the Lord's first concern is for His own. The first act of power He will exercise will be to bring those He loves out of their tombs.

J.T. That is the viewpoint in Thessalonians -- quite so.

R.W.S. I am not quite clear as to the going forth in verse 29: "... those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment". I know there is a thousand years between the two, but quickening hardly applies to the bodies of the wicked dead, does it?

J.T. I do not think quickening in the sense of which we have been speaking applies to them at all; they will, of course, be made to live, to exist, in a physical sense and in this condition come into judgment; they will stand before the throne; Revelation 20:12. They will thus "come forth", as stated in John 5:29, but this will be in a period much later than that of the resurrection of the just; Revelation 20:5.

A.P.T. That scripture in Revelation 20 says, "The rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed". Would you help us on that?

J.T. That would mean that they remained in death in a disembodied condition until the resurrection of the unjust. But Luke 16 shows that as the unsaved die they go to hades in which they are in

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torment. The word 'live' in Revelation 20:5 would not be more than that, the wicked dead are (including their bodies) brought into existence so as to continue eternally under the wrath of God.

A.R. What about Lazarus? The Lord said to him, "Lazarus, come forth; and the dead came forth".

J.T. Of course that is only a type of what we have here. The raising of Lazarus was merely physical; it was in his former state of flesh and blood. He died afterwards. He does not correspond with Matthew 27; those that were raised according to Matthew 27 live yet, in a remarkable way. They must exist in their bodies somewhere. We have to leave that with God. They came out as a testimony.

C.A.M. Would it be right to think that resurrection is in relation to a time setting, and as to external things, and quickening would be this inward matter?

J.T. Well, there are modifications, because quickening is also said of the believers' bodies; Romans 8:11. On the other hand, we have in John 5:21 that the Father raises the dead and quickens them. And in Ephesians and Colossians the saints in their present condition are viewed as quickened. Thus for a right understanding of words in Scripture it is often absolutely necessary to consider the contexts in which they are used. In Colossians resurrection is symbolised in baptism. It is a public matter, and it belongs peculiarly to the testimony. The resurrection is a great subject in Scripture, and that is to be kept in mind. It is on the divine calendar. In John 6 the Lord stresses it as His own act in the last day.

C.A.M. Your reference to the testimony in connection with the resurrection is helpful. Do we not get the light and testimony to the resurrection of Christ before we really enter into the meaning of it in our souls?

J.T. Quite so; it is a matter of teaching. As applied to believers in their present state resurrection

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belongs properly to Colossians and Ephesians. In Romans its application to the saints is in the future only.

J.T.Jr. Some in Corinth were saying there would be no resurrection, but the apostle calls them fools. "But some one will say. How are the dead raised? and with what body do they come?" 1 Corinthians 15:35. Do you think Paul there takes up this matter in relation to believers? He does not go into the matter of those who perish, does he?

J.T. No. He treats only of the resurrection of the saints. "With what body do they come?" In replying, the apostle uses a figure: "What thou sowest is not quickened unless it die ... . God gives to it a body as he has pleased". So he goes on to enlarge on the characteristics of a believer's body as sown in corruption, in dishonour, in weakness, a natural body; it is raised in incorruptibility, in glory, in power, a spiritual body. Therefore, the apostle connects all that he has in mind with the resurrection of the saints. The quickening of the bodies of the saints is also contemplated. It is in that connection the Lord Jesus is said to be the last Adam, a quickening spirit. He will exercise that power in relation to the saints. He loves us, and according to Thessalonians He comes with an assembling shout, involving love for the assembly and the power available to it, taking those who belong to it out of death; and according to Philippians, it is to transform us into conformity to His body of glory; and, according to Ephesians, to set us down together in heaven to be always with the Lord.

A.B.P. What is the life which the Lord speaks of in John 11:25, 26? Does it refer to the life which shall be entered into after resurrection? "I am the resurrection and the life; he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die".

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J.T. That bears directly on what we are saying. "Though he have died". That would refer to those that came out of their tombs according to Matthew 27, those who had died. The Lord is contemplating all the sleeping saints when He is speaking to Martha. He says, "I am the resurrection and the life". "The resurrection" is a great public matter; and "the life" involves quickening power. Romans 8:11 says of us who are alive -- not that have died -- that our bodies shall be quickened on account of God's Spirit which dwells in us. The second statement of the Lord (John 11:26) is, "Every one who lives and believes on me shall never die". "Every one who lives" refers to persons such as we are here tonight. We are entitled to so regard ourselves. So the two positions, the great position of "the dead in Christ" and the position of "the living who remain" are in the Lord's mind in His conversation with Martha. Therefore "every one who lives and believes on me shall never die" would mean that such do not go into the grave at all; they are just changed by the power of the Spirit.

A.B.P. And the change involves quickening?

J.T. Yes. "He that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also"; so our bodies are to be quickened.

A.P.T. In Romans 4, speaking of Abraham, Paul says, "God ... who quickens the dead". What would you say of that?

J.T. Well, the birth of Isaac, of course, was a matter of quickening. Abraham believed and hence Isaac was the product of the quickening power of God. It was really a miracle. But it was on the same principle, that Sarah was, as dead, quickened in that sense; that is, Isaac was born. So that the principle of quickening runs through, and is made to apply to us as literally dead or morally dead.

A.N.W. Is it not striking that that verse in

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Romans 8 applies the quickening of our mortal bodies in relation to the raising up of Christ? It could never be said that Christ was quickened, could it?

J.T. There is evidently a difference; He always has the pre-eminence. Peter says, however, that He was "made alive in the Spirit"; the original word for "made alive" is the same as is usually translated "quickened".

R.W.S. Is the Son quickening whom He will a more extensive thought than the Father raising the dead and quickening them?

J.T. I think the Father and the Son are viewed here as doing the same thing. Only the economy is in mind: the Father comes first, but the Son quickening whom He will would mean that He has power to quicken anyone out of a dead state. Verse 25, one hearing the voice of the Son of God and living, alludes to persons who are morally dead, not in the graves, but morally dead. That would be an act of the Son of God at any time in any one of us as hearing His voice.

R.W.S. The Father and the Son might act separately.

J.T. Yes. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are spoken of in Scripture as quickening but what they do is in infinite unity. The Father and the Son in their operational services are seen here, the Father operating before, and the Son now having become Man, operating, but it is the same thing. But it is the Deity coming out in a very factual way which could not be denied. The opposers immediately say. He is making Himself equal with God; and He was. The facts show that He was doing that; He is not doing it in a formal way, but He is doing it. It is the equality of the Son with the Father.

J.T.Jr. Do the facts stress the position of the Son in the chapter?

J.T. I think that is the way our meetings should

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proceed. Things should operate as we are ready for them, without any great formal show. They come in and are felt by some without others noticing. I think divine operations go on just that way. "My Father worketh hitherto", says the Lord. It had been going on for centuries and now the Son operating is an additional thought. "I work", says the Lord. Now the work is going on in this dual way.

C.A.M. The ecclesiastical system has really lost the truth of the Father and the Son working, and the infirm man spoken of in the early part of the chapter dropped back into that system. What the Lord is opening up now is that divine Persons are working.

J.T. The one was an angelic matter, once a year, but here is the wonderfulness of what has come in -- the Father and the Son operating. The Father has been doing it all along, and now the Son has come into it. Way has been made through the light of the assembly for divine Persons to operate, and living conditions exist; hence a case of need can be met, instead of waiting thirty-eight years.

G.A.L. Is Eutychus a case in point, how he was revived?

J.T. Yes. Eutychus was resuscitated by Paul after he fell down from the third story and seemed to be dead, but was not. So that Paul says, His life is in him. There is no idea of quickening there because his life was in him. He needed revivifying, the heat that love provides being largely the remedy; and the apostle enfolded him in his arms and brought the boy up. It was an act of Paul's. Of course, God acted, but it was peculiarly a service of Paul's. We might call it a miracle. Take a great spiritual matter that enters into the history of the assembly and yet death takes place in the sense that young people are worldly, looking out through the window and they get deadly cold and want to leave the saints. It is a question of resuscitation, bringing them back to conscious life;

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spiritual ministry and the care of love will under God, effect that. It represents a sorrowful event in relation to the testimony and the ministry. It may happen at any time, and it is met in the way the brethren look after each other, especially as seen in a great servant like Paul, how he was used at that time.

W.R. In Romans 1 we have, "... marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead" (verse 4). Why do you think "the Spirit of holiness" is added there?

J.T. It is an important thing. It is part of the gospel. It is a gospel statement. The word 'dead' there is plural; and of course it is carried in the hearers and receivers of the gospel as a great item of faith. However many are dead the Lord has power to raise them.

A.H. How can this work go on in us inwardly now apart from our bodies being quickened?

J.T. It is going on by the Father and the Son. What is evidently to impress us tonight is this great service of divine Persons, and how it proceeds, and no doubt the Lord intended to show that God, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, had been operating all the centuries until then. Who can say what happened in detail? How extensive must the Father's work have been as entering into all those centuries! Well, now it has come into christianity, and this chapter is to show that divine Persons are intent in the great matter of resurrection but especially of quickening, as bearing on the subject of eternal life, to which we are coming presently, and it is a question of what is going on in this room, what effect the word has, whether we are moving in this way according to what the chapter intimates. The Father and Son are here, ready to serve us, the Spirit, too. The saints are in mind in verse 29: "... those that have practised good". The Lord introduces the idea of doing good. Let us not forget that. There is great need

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for doing good and the result will appear in the resurrection. That the great truth of resurrection should be placed, as in this verse, on the ground of doing good is remarkable.

W.R. A great crowd came to see Lazarus after Jesus raised him from the dead. He was taken account of by others.

J.T. It was because of the resurrection; the testimony it afforded. There is going to be a great testimony, too, presently when, according to Thessalonians, the dead in Christ arise. But this goes further than that, it includes the wicked dead.

A.P.T. "He that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal" (verse 24). Is there a difference between that and the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God (verse 25)?

J.T. There is a difference. Both are gospel verses relating to life. Each has a double verily, so the Spirit is stressing them. In verse 24 the Lord says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal". In this verse there is the idea of hearing Christ's word. That is. His mind enters into this matter; not simply His voice. His voice conveys His feelings, and in general is more personal. Then also the idea of the Lord being sent by the Father is associated with His word, also that the hearer believes on Him who sent Him. The result is that the believer has life eternal, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life, whereas verse 25 states that "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live". Those morally dead are in mind.

W.C.R. Would you say a word in connection with Ezekiel 37, the prophetic word there and the great results from it? Does it all bear on what you are saying?

J.T. Well, that is a future matter, which opens up

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quite a line of thought characteristic of Ezekiel; but it links with verse 25 of this chapter, of which we have already spoken. The Lord says there, "An hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live". These persons are not dead in the literal sense, they are morally dead, as men generally are now. Ezekiel 37 contemplates the whole house of Israel viewed as existent in bodies. It is a figure really, bones came together, bone to its bone, also sinews, and flesh came upon them and skin covered them; and then through Ezekiel prophesying breath came into them and they lived, and stood upon their feet. The whole procedure is connected with prophecy. The passage is a prophetic allusion to the revival of Israel in the future, "in a day". A nation shall be born in a day. That is, the whole nation of Israel brought into life through the mighty power of God; but through prophecy. There is, however, as I said, a link with this chapter, for verse 24 contemplates Christ's "word", and verse 25 speaks of the voice of the Son of God, which involves the testimony of ministry. Verse 28 is the direct sovereign voice of Christ heard by those in the tombs.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that the man in John 9 to whom the Lord says, "Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he" (verse 37), is an example of one who is quickened, and so can see and hear?

J.T. Well, the Lord is assuming that something had already taken place in him. The Lord, of course, had actual contact with him in performing the sign, but there is nothing said so far of further direct relations with him. The Lord says, however, "Thou halt both seen him and he that speaks with thee is he". But beyond this there is no evidence that the man formed any personal links with the Lord. In answer to the inquiry of the neighbours as to where

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the Lord was, the man said, "I do not know". All this seems according to the divine design, to bring out the development of the moral effect of the sign. The chapter would show that considerable progress had taken place in a moral sense; for he had formed a most remarkable judgment of the whole position. What further do you have in mind?

A.B.P. Well, somehow the man of John 9 seems to come into one's mind constantly in contrast to the man of John 5; while the latter missed the real blessing, the man in John 9 seems to come into the gain of it. I thought that the seeing which the Lord referred to was more moral than actual; the development of his apprehension and discernment while standing alone seems to suggest life in him and I thought that connected with quickening.

J.T. I am sure it does; something of a moral character had taken place in the man. We may learn from the earlier verses, not merely that he had become interested in the Lord but he had acquired a remarkable apprehension of Him and of God, also of the truth generally. Now he is ready for further help, which the Lord alone could give. The time had come for the Lord to take him in hand more definitely, having in mind to fit him for the flock, as seen in chapter 10. I think the Lord's method with this man shows how He takes us all in hand, so as to finish His work in us in view of the assembly.

T.W. Will you distinguish between these titles the Lord uses of Himself -- Son of God, Son, and Son of man?

J.T. Well, what is before us especially is the Son of God; we are stressing that. The title Son of man is here connected with judgment, which would show that manhood in Him is invested with authority in that connection, that it is in the hands of the Son of man. All judgment is committed into His hands -- a matter to look into; how we are to put things under

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their proper heads, and if any matter involving judgment arises to put it under the head of the Son of man.

A.N.W. Would it be safe to say that verse 25 is the voice of the Son of God, and verse 28 is the voice of the Son of man? I thought the wicked dead would hear His voice as the Son of man in that sense.

J.T. Well, now, let us see. "For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is Son of man" (verses 26, 27). Remember, it is judgment. As we were already saying, the question comes up immediately whether it is the Son of man that raises the sleeping saints, or whether the Lord does not revert to verse 26. I believe He does and hence in verse 29 the Lord refers to Himself as Son of God; that it is the voice of the Son of God that raises the dead -- those who are in the tombs.

A.N.W. My thought in inquiring was that the wicked stand in relation to Him as Son of man.

A.B.P. The title Son alone would include both Son of God and Son of man?

J.T. Well, it would, but they have not exactly the same value, I would say. Son of man is on our side but the Son of God is on God's side. "The Son" in verse 23 designates the Lord's personal dignity as related to the Father. He is to be honoured as the Father is honoured. "His voice" in verse 29 is the voice of that Person.

J.T.Jr. That is the point in Romans 1, that has been referred to already: "... marked out Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead". It is the testimony to His sonship, is it not?

J.T. Yes. The Lord would have that in mind here; His prerogative in quickening and raising the dead -- the sleeping saints -- would be as Son of God. I think that is the Scriptural teaching; the idea of

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judgment is added in verse 29 and, therefore, the idea of Son of man must be included. But I believe "the voice" there is that of the Son of God.

J.S. Is this section a working out of the economy of the Father and the Son?

J.T. Yes, and it is intended to help us, I am sure, in our subject. It is not simply life but how it stands in relation to divine Persons, the Father and the Son.

R.W.S. Is verse 25 still the moral side, or does it allude to the dead physically?

J.T. "An hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". These are not physically dead persons. I think it is just as some may be here today -- that one may hear the voice of the Son of God in a meeting like this and live.

R.W.S. Verse 24 is in the present tense: hears my word; believes, has -- that would link on with the "now is" in verse 25, whereas the rest would appear to be future.

J.T. Quite so. Verse 25 runs down through this dispensation: "verily, verily ... an hour is coming". That hour had, you might say, already come; it is the hour of the Son of God marked by vivifying power in those who hear His voice; it is the dispensation that we are in. That is, it is the dispensation of the voice of the Son of God. "The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live".

A.N.W. Whereas the hour in verse 28 is still future.

J.T. Quite so, it is a question of the literal resurrection of the dead. Verse 25 is a present thing. They that have heard shall live. It is a question of the testimony of the Son of God, how it affects us as we hear it.

J.T.Jr. Verse 24, "... is passed out of death", is our side. It is a movement out of something into

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life. Is it an out-of-the-world condition of life and being?

J.T. Quite so; it is a present thing. It is predicated of us as believers as having heard Christ's word. It is not a voice but the Lord's word -- "he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me". The believer is brought into it. Therefore, it is a great gospel verse, and the effect of it is that you come into eternal life. It is not that you will have it, but you have it; "does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life" is predicated of all who believe the Father as having sent the Son and who hear the Son's word.

A.B.P. Is that in line with what you were stressing in an earlier reading, about the Son of man being lifted up: "I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me", John 12:32?

J.T. Yes; only it is "out of death" here, passed, not only out of the earth, but out of death into life.

A.B.P. Would that involve environment?

J.T. Yes, only "death" is a state we are in, of course, living on the earth.

W.W.M. Do you look at Ephesians 2, where it speaks of quickening us together with Christ and raising us up together, as a present or future matter?

J.T. It is viewed as a fact and hence is present. It is anticipative. It is not "he will raise us up"; He has done it. Therefore it enters into the service of God. We are entitled to take heavenly ground as progressing in the service. He has raised us up together.

C.A.M. Speaking again of the voice of the Son of God and the judgment committed to the Son of man, would you think the book of Daniel throws a certain light on this? The "fourth" in chapter 3 who went through the furnace with the three that were cast into it, is said to be like a son of God. In chapter 7 the setting is beyond death altogether; "thrones were

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set, and the Ancient of days did sit", and one like a son of man came up and was brought near.

J.T. That is a good connection. It ought to help us. The Son of God is identified with the saints in death. It is as the Son of God that He associates with us and helps us in the circumstances of death. Son of man refers to His position as in relation with men as Heir of all that attaches to man according to the counsels of God, including universal headship and dominion. Authority to execute judgment is also given to Him, "because he is Son of man". This, however, is included in His wider prerogative as Son; John 5:22, 23.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (16)

John 6:27 - 71

J.T. The sign with which this chapter begins helps us in what is in view as to eternal life. The sign in chapter 5, an impotent man raised up by the Lord, also helps as to what is in view in that chapter. This time it is feeding a multitude, so that the idea of food is in mind, but it is food unto eternal life, and hence, as the verse with which we began says, "Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto life eternal, which the Son of man shall give to you". The Son of man is seen as sealed by God the Father in view of service worked out from our side; that is, the believer's appropriation of the food that is furnished unto life eternal.

A.N.W. When you speak of our side, would you say a word as to how it takes on the form of work? The Lord seems to imply that we are to work for it.

J.T. It is a question of the use of language -- it illustrates the way language may be used. Later the Lord says, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent". Here we have, "Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto life eternal". Then you have the reference to the Father sealing the Son, that is, the Son of man. He, as on our side, governs all this. That is, the idea of work refers to what we are to be occupied with in appropriating what is made available. Of course, there is some suggestion of work in appropriation.

H.B. Does Proverbs 13:4 fit in: "A sluggard's soul desireth and hath nothing; but the soul of the diligent shall be made fat"?

J.T. It does, indeed. We know how much is involved in the preparation of food and then in the appropriation of it.

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C.A.M. Would you say this is food for the one that has been quickened, seen in the previous chapter?

J.T. Yes. The Spirit also quickens, as said in verse 63: "It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing". This chapter is clearly a spiritual matter throughout. As has been remarked, the sign in it refers to food. It bears on the whole chapter; and so verse 27, with which we began, links with this; it brings us into it, in the sense of which we have been speaking, in the word 'work'.

A.N.W. The Lord opens the subject in the chapter with the query about buying loaves: "Whence shall we buy loaves that these may eat?" (verse 5). What phase of the matter is that?

J.T. It is in keeping with much in the chapter as to the natural mind. Much is said that is not spiritual. The Lord says to Philip, "Whence shall we buy loaves that these may eat? But this he said trying him, for he knew what he was going to do". So that Philip's answer shows the line he is on: "Loaves for two hundred denarii are not sufficient for them, that each may have some little portion". And then one of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, says to Him, "There is a little boy here who has five barley loaves and two small fishes; but this, what is it for so many?" (verse 9). The Lord would bring out where we are in such cases, and clearly the remarks point to natural sentiments governing the disciples; whereas the Lord had in mind that what He was going to do would relate to the spiritual; so that the verse already alluded to governs that: "It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing". Hence we are, as it were, adjusted immediately. The Lord is on spiritual lines and the flesh profits nothing. Flesh would be seen in remarks that run throughout the chapter. As, for instance, verse 28: "What should we do that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them. This is the work of

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God, that ye believe on him whom he has sent. They said therefore to him, What sign then doest thou that we may see and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat". They are just on natural lines.

S.J.H. Are these questions that you refer to part of the preparation? You spoke of preparation in connection with the food; there is also the partaking of it.

J.T. Just so. Preparation must precede the idea of eating. It was said as to the passover (Luke 22:9), "Where wilt thou that we prepare it?" Preparation must precede eating, and, of course, that raises the whole question of how this food has come into being. The Lord here refers to food under various designations; among which are "the food which abides unto life eternal" (verse 27); then, "Verily, verily, I say to you, It is not Moses that has given you the bread out of heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world", (verses 32, 33). The crowd said to him, "Lord, ever give to us this bread", but did they understand what they were saying? The Lord says, "I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger, and he that believes on me shall never thirst at any time" (verse 35). So that the idea of preparation must enter into the chapter, and the Father is brought into it, and the Spirit is brought into it; but the Son of man is the prominent thought in it: "... which the Son of man shall give to you; for him has the Father sealed, even God" (verse 27), showing that He is taken on divinely by the Father to serve. He makes all this effective.

A.R. How is the idea of coming to Him and believing on Him (verse 35), worked out? "He that believes on me shall never thirst at any time". He

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makes a great deal of coming to Him throughout the chapter.

J.T. It is our side of the truth that governs the whole chapter; the appropriation of what is brought within our reach is stressed. Earlier in the chapter the crowd had thought of making Him king, but now He is putting the whole position on spiritual lines, and it is worked out in coming to Him. He is not making a great show of what He is doing, but yet would be seen and heard and spoken to and ready to give what is needed to one who comes to Him.

D.P. Is this form of teaching intended to bring out what is of God in His people?

J.T. At first the ground is cleared, I think, in the Lord bringing out the natural in them. We have already noted that He knew what He was going to do: "But this he said trying him, for he knew what he was going to do" (verse 6). The trying side would be to bring out the natural, and, of course, it is a challenge to us at this very moment as to why we are here today and what we are seeking; what is in our minds? How much of the natural is governing us? He knows what He is going to do, and we need to get to that. It involves spiritual movement to Him.

A.R. He says later on, "No one can come to me except the Father who has sent me draw him", John 6:44. Is that the work of God in the soul?

J.T. Quite so. That is the leading thought in the chapter. The intended result of the Lord's words and way here is to bring about a spiritual state in us, and that makes room for the Father and the Son and the Spirit to act according to what is seen here. So long as the natural is governing us we shut God out.

F.N.W. Does the Lord have in mind food that is beyond the thought of manna? The people introduce the thought of manna, but did He have more in mind?

J.T. He had very much more in mind. Manna is not the idea of the chapter. The Lord excludes it in

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His comment: "It is not Moses that has given yon the bread out of heaven; but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world". The idea of the manna is excluded because, as a type, it refers to Christ as a Man here in flesh and blood. But this teaching is that the food is Christ dead. The blood is separated from the body. His blood is to be drunk, and His flesh is to be eaten.

A.R. Would it be in principle after the Lord came off the cross?

J.T. Just so. It has to be appropriated. Who can come to that? So that the thief would be ready, and others. It was a learning time; a piercing time, too. Simeon said to the Lord's mother, "... and even a sword shall go through thine own soul", Luke 2:35. That is what she would see. She stood by the cross and so did John and others.

C.N. Is He presenting Himself in contrast to all that exists? Death is on everything here, but life alone is centred in Himself and obtained by those who believe. Is that correct?

J.T. It is the teaching of the chapter and, therefore, verse 27, as we already remarked, introduces the main thought: "Work not for the food which perishes, but for the food which abides unto life eternal, which the Son of man shall give to you; for him has the Father sealed, even God". He had come down from heaven. So that the chapter henceforth is taken up with that line of truth, that He had come down from heaven; not simply that He had come down, but He comes down. It is a characteristic thought as well as an historical thought.

A.A.T. What would you say this sealing was?

J.T. The sealing refers to the Spirit; what happened at the Jordan when He was baptised. All this was in mind; many other things, too, but the Lord is bringing it in here in relation to this matter of food.

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He operates by the Spirit. He is setting out the thought in this food -- the Father is brought into it, and the Spirit is brought into it. He quickens. But the Spirit in Jesus, as sealed by the Father, is the Spirit as operative; that is, the Spirit in Him as serving in this way.

J.T.Jr. "For him ..." is to bring the Person before us. The structure is peculiar. It might be said, The Father has sealed him. That is true also, but is it put in this way, "For him has the Father sealed", to emphasise the Son of man as in charge of all this of which He is speaking?

J.T. Just so. The stress is on Him; that is, that Person, the Son of man. So that He is here to serve, and make God's mind effective. The great matter of food was in His mind, the food which abides unto life eternal; the bread of God -- He who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world. There are other designations of the bread, but this has the world in mind; not the world in a moral, evil sense; but not Judaism. It is a wider thought. It is the whole world including men generally that is contemplated in the bread of God. The word 'world' has to be looked at in this character here.

S.F. The blood is usually for God, is it not? In what way do we drink the Lord's blood?

J.T. It is not for God here. It is for us. It is for our appropriation; and the Lord says it is drink indeed. Now, drinking is spoken of as regards the Spirit in John 4 and John 7; but here it is the blood of Jesus. The blood of the Son of man is the drink; a matter that we have to understand. It is to be regarded as separated from the flesh, so that it is evidently a dead Christ that is in mind to be fed upon. The blood is separated from the body, as John says. He saw what followed the action of the soldier's spear. Blood and water came out; but it is just the blood here with the flesh.

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T.E.H. That is not for refreshment. It is food.

C.A.M. Would you say the blood is not viewed here as connected in any way with atonement? Is it connected with the new order of man?

J.T. For food; just so. You have to stop and think. "How can he give us this flesh to eat?" (verse 52). The natural mind cannot penetrate what is meant. It is one of the most profound chapters, and being a long chapter, and the references to food being so frequent, it requires thoughtfulness. Therefore, Peter, at the end says, "thou hast words of life eternal" (verse 68): words; truth broken up into detail.

A.C-r. Would Daniel be an example for us? He purposed in his heart not to eat the delicacies of the king's table, but ate pulse, so that God showed him mercy.

J.T. Yes. He and his companions were fairer and fatter than the youths that ate of the king's delicate food. Daniel was a man of purpose. He purposed in his heart as to the matter, and that is the point here -- whether we can face this chapter with purpose. You understand this food and appropriate it and nothing else; it will give us a constitution and an appearance in our countenances that no other food can effect.

A.B.P. Does the Son of man in death, being food for us, represent the ultimate in the fulfilment of the will of God?

J.T. Yes. The idea of being raised up in the last day enters into all this, it is mentioned four times. Whatever accrues from the many vicissitudes of the dispensation, those who do God's will go through. We are to be raised up in the last day; but we are to be raised up as those who have constitutions resultant from the food spoken of in this chapter. Daniel helps us there; he purposed in his heart and adhered to it; and at the end, the word to him is, "Thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days", Daniel 12:13. That is a point that runs

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through Daniel. In spite of all the vicissitudes of the history, Daniel will stand in his lot at the end. Terrible things, depicted in the book, are to be gone through but the wise understand and triumph. "And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the expanse; and they that turn the many to righteousness as the stars, for ever and ever", Daniel 12:3.

A.N.W. So far as the life of the world is concerned, according to the Lord's statement, that is secured by the giving of His flesh. Why is that accomplished by that without reference to the blood?

J.T. Well, it implies the Lord's death. The Lord's supper has two features, and generally in this chapter the Lord's death is conveyed in His flesh and blood. It is a question of the context, and how language is used. "For the bread of God is he who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world". It is that side of it. It would not exclude the idea of the blood, because the Lord says in verse 53, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood, ye have no life in yourselves. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him up at the last day: for my flesh is truly food and my blood is truly drink. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him". And then, "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me" (verse 57). The teaching is progressive. "He also who eats me" -- that would be appropriation of Christ in life as He is now, whereas earlier the food is a dead Christ. But eating Him would seem to point to what He is now. "This is the bread which has come down out of heaven" (verse 58). And so the eating or appropriation of the Person and living by Him would point to His present condition.

H.B. In Joshua 5, after Israel crossed the Jordan

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and ate the passover, they ate unleavened bread and roast corn. Does that fit in, in principle, with this?

J.T. Well, it would point to a heavenly food: the food of the land; the old corn. But it was after they had crossed the Jordan. The food provided before crossing the Jordan is called victuals, alluding spiritually to strong meat that would be required to go through death, but what you allude to would be in the land itself; the growth of the land.

C.A.M. Eternal life really belongs to the land. I was wondering whether it would be right to go back for a moment to the thought of the passover. It is mentioned in verse 4. Then we have the Lord walking on the sea, indicating that another world is in mind.

J.T. He was taking an administrative position. He went up, it is said. The passover here is just a religious reference; not more than that. The first part of the chapter really is dealing with the state of the disciples, what their minds were on. And as we proceed, the Lord goes up. The feeding is a sign. It is one of the signs in this gospel. What is in the Lord's mind in it is developed after verse 27; but what precedes includes His going up. It is said in verse 14, "The men therefore, having seen the sign which Jesus had done, said, This is truly the prophet which is coming into the world. Jesus therefore knowing that they were going to come and seize him" (showing their mind was still natural) "that they might make him king, departed again to the mountain himself alone". This is typical. The sign refers to power; what power He had to provide food. But when they tried to use Him on natural lines He departed to a mountain alone. "But when evening was come, his disciples went down to the sea, and having gone on board ship, they went over the sea to Capernaum. And it had already become dark, and Jesus had not come to them, and the sea was agitated by a strong wind blowing. Having rowed then about

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twenty-five or thirty stadia, they see Jesus walking on the sea" (verses 16 - 19). This is all typical. He will not be made king. He is not going to submit to their natural minds at all. He is setting up another system, and He goes up to the mountain as a type of His present position on high. But then He comes down and is walking on the water. It is another world really, but it is in relation to a sign; that there is power in Him to carry us through. All this is in view of making way in the minds of the disciples for this food that the Son of man would give them. So that the whole of the chapter is dealing with this one thought -- the food -- only there is progressive teaching until we come to the idea of eating Him; eating the Lord Himself, not in the dual sense of blood and flesh, but Himself as food.

F.N.W. Would it be right to say there are three general foods in this progression: the literal food furnished miraculously, which may be connected with the wilderness; the eating of His flesh and drinking His blood; and finally this Me that you referred to?

J.T. Yes. Food is thus stressed throughout. The Son of man, as sealed, is to bring us into all this; He is designated as the Bread of God.

A.R. You would not link this with the Supper?

J.T. No, it is food in view of life. Of course, there is food in the Lord's supper, but this is a chapter by itself, fitting into the teaching of John as to eternal life. That is the point in it: "thou hast words of life eternal" (verse 68).

A.P.T. Would the details of the chapter indicate there is a good deal to be overcome to get this food -- the ignorance of the disciples; the crowd seeking to make the Lord king; the Jews murmuring and others turning back?

J.T. I am sure that is important to bear in mind. The subject begins with physical food, but that is a

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sign, and a sign involves power. It is not called a miracle. It is power in the sense of what is in mind in this book. The signs are "that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name", John 20:31.

J.T.Jr. Do you think there might be a tendency to take on the Lord in this way, as these tried to take Him and make Him king? It is a natural kind of thing; taking on the Lord in a natural way. He shuts that out completely.

J.T. In view of such teaching, you are challenged as to how much you have to overcome in your mind; how much you are ready for, and how much you are not ready for. The very motives that underlie our being have to be looked into.

A.B.P. The Lord saying, "I am the bread of life" (verse 35), and again, "I am the bread ..." (verse 41), would suggest that there is more than what He was in humiliation? Does what He is in His own Person enter into it?

J.T. It must. When He says, "I am", who He is must enter into it. So that if we run through here, we have "the bread of God" (verse 33); that is for the world. That is to say, it is not for Judaism; it is for the world. As John says in his epistle, "He is the propitiation for our sins; but not for ours alone, but also for the whole world", 1 John 2:2. And then, verse 35, "Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life he that comes to me shall never hunger". And, verse 40, "For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal". Now we have a dual thought here: "every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal, and I will raise him up at the last day". And, verse 46, "Not that any one has seen the Father, except he who is of God, he has seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say to you, He that believes on me has life eternal. I am the bread of life". It is

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a simple but great fact that the person who believes, as the Lord says, has life eternal. The link there is with faith. Again, verse 50, "This is the bread which comes down out of heaven". Not that has come down, but which comes down. It is characteristic of it that it comes down "that one may eat of it and not die". Then, verse 51, "I am the living bread which has come down". This is historical -- which has come down. The sequence is, "if any one shall have eaten of this bread he shall live for ever; but the bread withal which I shall give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world". That is His side of it. It is not the bread of God here, but what Christ does for the world. And then verse 53 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood, ye have no life in yourselves". That shuts out Judaism. They were not appropriating the Son of man. They were rejecting Him. Then verse 54 says, "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal"; and added to this is the final reference in the chapter to the believer being raised up at the last day. And then in verse 55 the Lord says, "... for my flesh is truly food and my blood is truly drink". And, verse 56, "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him". So that we have a basis here, in coming to dwell in Him, for our heavenly relations. Dwelling in Him involves that He is alive, as He is now. And then in verse 57, "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". That evidently is Christ above, so that it is progressive teaching. Verse 58 says, "This is the bread which has come down out of heaven. Not as the fathers ate and died: he that eats this bread shall live for ever".

Well, that is the wondrous record of John 6, and it should affect us profoundly. Anyone, if he looks into it, will see the frequency of the references to divine

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food, and the result of appropriating it, which is life; eternal life.

A.R. Verse 54 says, "I will raise him up at the last day" whereas in verse 58 it is, "live for ever". There is no dying at all in verse 58.

J.T. Quite so. We will get that in chapter 11 later on. "Every one who lives and believes on me shall never die" (verse 26). This is leading up to that. When Peter answers the Lord in the end of the chapter, "thou hast words of eternal life"; he is alluding to what we have throughout the chapter some ten or more references to this great matter of food and life.

D.P. Is the Lord presenting Himself here as occupying the whole position? He in His Person incorporates everything: eternal life and food and whatever is needed by us.

J.T. Just so. That is how your mind will be impressed as you proceed. Christ is everything and in all. But then immediately we have, after all this, in verse 60, "Many therefore of his disciples having heard it said, This word is hard". It is the natural mind; really, the Jewish mind, and we have to be on our guard as to it. A hard mind is incapable of being impressed by spiritual things: "This word is hard; who can hear it?" they say. "But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmur concerning this, said to them, Does this offend you? If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?" That is the question; the Son of man was now ascending; He had the heavenly side of things in mind. It is the Spirit, He says, which quickens. As to the heavenly side, we are wholly dependent upon the Spirit. "The flesh profits nothing: the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life". How we are challenged right through! These murmurers just bring out what is going on in our hearts if we allow the natural mind in these things.

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A.R. "But there are some of you who do not believe" (verse 64). The Lord knew who was there.

A.N.W. Is there any higher thought of food in the chapter than in verse 57?

J.T. "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". That is the highest thought of life in the chapter, I would say. That is the position now.

C.A.M. Referring to verse 62 which is in the form of an unanswered question, do you think that we need verse 57 to understand it?

J.T. Just so. You are living by Him. But verse 63 is needed. The Spirit, which is mentioned there only in the chapter, furnishes light as to Christ in heaven. This great truth is enlarged on in chapters 14 - 16. He is introduced here as essential to the subject of chapter 6.

A.N.W. He has gone beyond human range in verse 62, has He not?

J.T. He has not, however, gone beyond the range of faith, because living by Him implies that He is within our range in a spiritual sense. The remaining part of the book opens up what develops in the coming in of the Spirit. The Spirit is sent to abide with us for ever; by Him we have part in all this.

A.N.W. When He says, "... where he was before?" what does that convey to you?

J.T. It is the place He is going to take now as Man, I think. "Where he was before" is the general thought of heaven. In chapter 3 He says, "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven" (verse 13). That is inscrutable, but it implies that He is available. It opens up Paul's doctrine. And chapter 14, from verse 15 onward, opens up the truth of the Spirit. The Spirit is the medium by which we are in relation with divine Persons; the Father and the

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Son, and how they come to us too. So that I think verse 57 opens up christianity. "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". That is christianity.

C.A.M. What you said about verse 62 is very interesting. You connect it with the Lord's actual going up and they seeing Him?

J.T. Yes. They saw Him go up.

C.A.M. The disciples in verse 61 would be truly disciples; at least some of them.

J.T. Well, they are just designated in that way, but some of them were going back.

C.A.M. But what you said made me think that among those disciples there must really have been those that did see Him go up.

J.T. Well, in chapter 8 the Lord says, "The truth shall set you free" (verse 32). And then, "If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free" (verse 36). That would imply there were some there that were genuine, and some here were genuine, but some were not. The teaching, however, proceeds on to what we were speaking of as christianity, for the Lord says in verse 63: "It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing". Those of us who profess to be disciples have to come to this, that the flesh profits nothing. And the Lord adds, "The words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life". Christianity itself is embodied in the Lord Jesus. The Spirit was there in Him and the life was in Him, and the disciples were coming into it. Chapter 14 shows they were coming into it, and the Spirit would be with them for ever.

A.P.T. In Acts 7 Stephen says, "Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God" (verse 56). That is a wonderful view, is it not?

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J.T. Just so. It confirms what we remarked as to verse 62. There is one who sees Him. Stephen represents christianity. The Lord has in mind here the parting of the ways with Judaism; that is, those that lived in Judaea and Jerusalem. They were the Jews. But the whole realm of humanity is in view in opening up the way for christianity; what we have today. Stephen represents that. He says, "Lo, I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God".

A.B.P. Does Paul's ministry in Philippians 2:5 - 11 link on with John 6? It says, "Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus", and then goes on to the down-stooping; the obedience even unto death; and then the exaltation.

J.T. Just so. "Wherefore also God highly exalted him" (verse 9). Stephen denotes the break with Judaism. The Lord is setting it aside here in His teaching, but historically it did not happen until Stephen's time, when the parting of the ways had come and Stephen saw the heavens opened through. It is much like the epistle to the Hebrews. Paul wrote that epistle, no doubt, and it opens up what Stephen saw. We are told there, "We see Jesus ... crowned with glory and honour", Hebrews 2:9. That is christianity.

A.A.T. That is introduced in John 20 where the Lord says to Mary Magdalene, "I ascend".

J.T. Just so. This leads up to that, where we have a message preparing us for christianity: "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" (verse 17). That is one of John's great messages. Others are in his epistles. The first is, "And this is the message which we have heard from him, and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all", 1 John 1:5. Another message is, "For this is the message which ye have heard from

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the beginning, that we should love one another", 1 John 3:11. It involves christianity that we love one another, because it is the very life of heaven. Eternal life implies that the brethren love one another. It is a direct message to us.

Well, our remarks as to John 6 led us to verse 63, "It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing". That throws out much of the public profession. The whole sacerdotal system is contrary to the mind of God and should be so regarded by true christians. The flesh profits nothing; it is the Spirit that quickens. Christianity is spiritual. It is what the Spirit effects in us. And then the Lord goes on, "But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would deliver him up. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no one can come to me unless it be given to him from the Father". That is sovereignty. Whatever I may do or think, I cannot come into all this except the Father draw me. I am dependent on the work of God in my soul to draw me to Christ. Then the Spirit says, "From that time many of his disciples went away back and walked no more with him". This is the parting of the ways I have just been speaking of, which occurred at the death of Stephen. Judaism was being left and the heavenly side was being opened up. Well, then the Lord says, "Will ye also go away? Simon Peter answered him. Lord, to whom shall we go?" That is the conclusion. There is nothing else to do. You might put Luther's remark in there: 'I can do no other'. The Lord has the words of eternal life. We can but stay with Him. And so Peter goes on, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God". This is a priestly touch. (I am reading from the New Translation.) "The holy one of God" is an allusion

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to priesthood. The Lord is going to set up a new system and be Priest in it.

A.R. Those who did not go away would be with Him.

J.T. Quite so. We can but stay. Some are going away. It is most distressing how many delinquents there have been, but God is turning the tide.

A.P.T. "No murderer has eternal life abiding in him", 1 John 3:15. Would Judas Iscariote be like that here?

J.T. That is just the setting. The Lord is not letting Judas off. He mentions the word 'twelve'. "Have not I chosen you the twelve?" (verse 70). Judas was included. The Lord then says, in effect, I cannot let him off. He calls him a devil. The Lord says these words in a wonderful setting, a heavenly setting, but He says in effect, 'I cannot let Judas into that; I must bring out who he is'. It shows how the crisis has come; the parting of the ways; so that even Judas, one that is numbered with the twelve, is called a devil. He is not allowed to go unexposed. There is no hope of anyone escaping exposure who is not true; this chapter is to bring out true people.

T.E.H. Was Elisha a man that had the power of this truth in his soul when he resisted the unbelief of the sons of the prophets in regard of Elijah's going up? They went and searched for him three days, but Elisha already had forbidden them to search for him. The evil of the natural mind would deny the ascension of Elijah.

J.T. They were "valiant men" too. "Let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master", they said to Elisha; 2 Kings 2:16.

S.F. Peter says, "We have believed and known". Is that the right order of knowing these things?

J.T. Yes. That is what runs through the chapter. The work of God is proceeding all the time, and these whom Peter represents had believed and known. It

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was a regular formative work that had proceeded in them. There is no revelation here. This corresponds with Matthew 16, where the Father's revelation is brought in, but that is left out here. It is not a question of revelation; it is a question of progressive knowledge through teaching and being in the company of the Lord.

A.N.W. Judas could never say that.

J.T. He really had no part nor lot in the matter. How terribly solemn that is, that one might go on nominally with the brethren and yet have neither part nor lot in the matter, as Peter said to Simon!

A.B.P. There seems to be distinction between the operations of divine Persons in the saints. There is reference to what the Father Himself does, and what the Son does. Is that not seen in the revelation which Peter received from the Father? The Lord said that the Father had given it to Peter, but then He gives him further light as to the assembly. Would you open up, a little, the distinctive work of divine Persons?

J.T. There is a difference between a revelation and progressive knowledge; increase in the knowledge of God. Revelation is introduced in Matthew. It probably happened at the same time as did the events recorded here. Instead of a revelation here, it is what Peter had already acquired through faith and knowledge. "We have believed and known". It was through faith and in keeping company with the Lord, experiencing what He did and said.

T.E.H. Can you have the one without the other?

J.T. The revelation is by itself. We ought not to be strangers to revelation, nor should we be strangers to this idea of progressive knowledge of God through experience and teaching. Revelation is contemplated in 1 Corinthians 14"If there be a revelation to another sitting there, let the first be silent" (verse 30);

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but barring the idea of a revelation, there is no change; the brother who is speaking continues his word. The revelation is made room for, as if it is supreme in these circumstances.

G.V.D. If the beginning of this progression is work, why is the conclusion of it linked up with sovereignty?

J.T. It shows how features of the truth work together. The sovereignty of God is a great subject. God says to Elijah, "Yet I have left myself seven thousand in Israel", 1 Kings 19:18.

A.R. Should we not be able to differentiate between the operation of divine Persons in our souls, the Father and the Son and the Spirit?

J.T. It is not easy to say much, but clearly the three Persons are to be apprehended severally. They all quicken. The Father quickens, and the Son quickens, and the Spirit quickens, and it is a question of spiritual discernment and understanding as to whether I can tell if the operation is by the Father or by the Son or by the Spirit.

A.P.T. In Genesis 24, Rebecca is led by Abraham's servant until she comes in contact with Isaac.

J.T. Abraham is a type of the Father and the servant is a type of the Spirit and Isaac is a type of the Son. The servant is never named in Genesis 24. He is named in Genesis 15; he is Eliezer of Damascus, but he is not named in chapter 24, because it is the Spirit that is in mind. He speaks about Abraham as his master at the beginning of the chapter, but he speaks about Isaac as his master at the end of it.

A.R. Does the Holy Spirit give us help as regards the Father and the Son?

J.T. Quite so. I believe we have to keep the Spirit in our minds all through that wonderful chapter; Genesis 24.

A.B.P. Is there a clue in Matthew 16 in that the

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revelation which the Father had given to Peter was concerning the Son?

J.T. Quite so. The Son began to speak of the Father immediately.

D.P. What does the apostle mean by saying that God had revealed His Son in him?

J.T. It is different from Matthew 16. The Lord does not say to Peter, 'the Father has revealed Me in you'. He says, "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens". And then He adds, "And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter" (verses 17, 18). That is, the Lord is speaking about Peter as the material; and, further, He speaks about Himself as the Builder. Now Paul says of himself, "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me, that I may announce him as glad tidings", Galatians 1:16. It is another line of things. It would involve Paul's affections. In that same section he says of the Lord, "... who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. I believe Paul's affections are involved in the expression, "reveal his Son in me".

W.W.M. In relation to what Peter says here, "We have believed and known" -- such knowledge is spoken of in Proverbs 8"the knowledge which cometh of reflection". It is by contemplation and reflection that we come into that knowledge.

J.T. That would fit here. It is not a question of a revelation here. It is knowledge that comes from reflection and general exercise in nearness to the Lord.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (17)

John 8:12; John 10:10, 27 - 29

J.T. The idea of following the Lord appears in chapter 8: 12: "he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life". Our inquiry so far would lead to this -- the light of life -- developing out of following the Lord as the light of the world. But what has to be considered carefully is how the light of life works out. The verse read will link on intelligibly with chapter 10 in which we find the idea of the "one flock", which enters into the truth of eternal life.

A.R. Chapter 10: 10 says, "I am come that they might have life". Is that, being in the plural, collective?

J.T. Yes. It is collective, working out immediately from chapter 9. So that the Lord says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly". The abundance of it is to be noted. It would not point to eternal life in the millennial position, but rather to the present time.

A.R. Would it suggest the idea that each saint adds to it, in that sense?

J.T. Well, normally he should. There is no idea of detraction in anyone who comes into the circle of life, because "he that follows me" is a characteristic person -- such a follower is not likely to detract from what he comes into. The work of God is cumulative. According to chapter 4 the believer secured becomes part of the administration. This is seen in the woman of Samaria. When Jehu was drawing near to Samaria messengers were sent out to inquire, and he directed them to turn in behind him; 2 Kings 9:18, 19. They were to become part of what he was going on with.

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E.E.H. The two mentioned in chapter 1, who followed the Lord and to whom He said, "Come and see", would come into the light of this life?

J.T. That must fit into its own setting (John 1), but certainly the idea is there.

C.A.M. Would you say that the Lord teaching in the temple in the beginning of chapter 8 bears on what follows with regard to life?

J.T. Well, life as affording light has to be linked up with vegetation. Genesis 1 contemplates life, first in the vegetable world, in view of the migratory ways developing in the human race. It would be seen in Abraham's response to the divine command to leave his country and go to the land that God would show him. He ultimately came into the land of Canaan with which life is especially connected. The Psalms help us as to how life appears from the vegetable point of view. Psalm 107 contemplates God's people wandering, and then ultimately He led them forth by a right way that they might go to a "city of habitation". It is said, "He maketh the wilderness into a pool of water, and the dry land into water-springs; and there he maketh the hungry to dwell, and they establish a city of habitation; and sow fields, and plant vineyards, which yield fruits of increase; and he blesseth them, so that they are multiplied greatly; and he suffereth not their cattle to decrease" (verses 35 - 38). This psalm is the beginning of the fifth book of Psalms, and it contemplates Israel journeying until the idea of the city of habitation comes into view, and then fruitfulness associated with that. I think that illustrates what we have in John 8, that the light of life is what is seen in fruitfulness. So that persons who are in quest of living conditions, potentially so, discover them in this way. The light of life would be the fruits of life. It is said, "Prepare thy work without, and put thy field in order, and afterwards build thy house", Proverbs 24:27.

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I think that following the Lord as indicated in what has preceded in our readings would lead to the fruits of life.

A.N.W. Is the light of life a more concentrated idea than, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4?

J.T. I think this passage in chapter 8 contemplates the enlargement of what is stated in chapter 1, without indicating the limitations or extent of it. In John 1, it is what is in Christ only: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". But here he who follows has this result. "I am the light of the world; he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (verse 12). He does not just say it is in Him. He is the Light of the world, but there is more than that. Following Him would bring out more than that, and I think it suggests the enlargement of life involving the saints, as we shall see in chapter 10.

J.T.Jr. So of Peter, the Lord says, "what is that to thee? Follow thou me", John 21:22. And then we have Peter's shadow; Acts 5:15. Would that have any bearing on this?

J.T. It would. There was substance there. He directed the lame man: "Look on us". What he would see in Peter and John would be the extension of what is in Christ. I think that is the way we must reach this feature of the truth. We are coming to the end of our subject involving following the Lord and the persons you meet in the following. It is implied in the book of Acts in "the way". It involves the persons that were in the upper room -- those with whom the Spirit of God began.

C.N. Would the first verse of the first epistle of John help? The apostle says, "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word

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of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father ... )" (verse 2). Would the expressions that came out in the life of Christ among the apostles be the light of life?

J.T. Quite so; that was the "old commandment" which they had from the beginning; chapter 2: 7. It is what Christ was here involving His ministry. Then it goes on to say, "... which thing is true in him and in you" (verse 8). That is the new commandment; the new commandment is what came out in Christ carried on in the saints as seen in the Acts. I think that is what we ought to keep before us tonight "... which thing is true in him and in you". It is regarded in a collective sense in the saints. Christ is not here personally, but the saints are, and the extension is in them, so that you get life in testimony "the true light already shines". Where in a practical or concrete sense can it be found? While Christ was here it was in Him, but now it is in the saints. That is where it is concretely, and God has, as it were, diversified it and spread it abroad, so that the brethren, according to Psalm 107, arrived at life; they arrived at a city of habitation, and what supports the city of habitation is vegetation. This country affords abundant illustration of this; and, of course, the immigrants took the line of life to find their sustenance; that is, they followed the line of the rivers and lakes.

W.R. "The Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved", Acts 2:47. Was the sphere of life in the assembly in that way for others to come in and have part in what was already there?

J.T. Quite so. And the one hundred and twenty names coincide with what we are saying. Names involve life; characteristics of persons. Properly a name conveys the characteristics of a living person, not a dead person. John had that in mind: "but

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these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name", chapter 20: 31. That is the testimony, and as a believer is moving and looking for what is right, following Christ, he will find the fruits of life among the brethren.

F.S.C. What suggestion of the saints is in verse 12 which we have just read?

J.T. The light of life is in Christ, but, as we have seen, it is also expressed in the saints. Chapter 1 confines it to the Lord Himself, but the epistle regards it as light in the saints. He characterises Himself as the light of the world. "I am the light of the world; he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12. John's gospel connects the testimony with Christ here, but it anticipates this life as also testimony. In his gospel John anticipates christianity, and I believe it is involved in chapter 8; in his epistle he treats of it as currently existent.

C.A.M. So that the idea of following becomes increasingly noticeable in John's gospel.

J.T. Yes. The light of the world is universal, going beyond Judaism. The light of the world would now involve Christ in heaven. The position of Christ is the light of the world. He does not say He is the light of life in this passage. He does say He is the light of the world, and that is universal in bearing. He is that in heaven. The concrete thing is here where it is touchable; where the result is to be seen -- the light of life. That is, life as presented in John is the basis or source of light for men. Of course, God is light. This would refer to what He is morally as revealed in Christ.

J.H.E. The apostle Paul saw a light above the brightness of the sun.

J.T. Yes. He saw the light but he did not get into the circle of the brethren for some time after

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that. "Enter into the city", the Lord says, and he was led into the city in darkness. It was in the city he found the life in a practical or concrete sense. Ananias was sent to him by the Lord. Properly speaking, he came into practical relation with the brethren through Ananias.

A.A.T. "But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another", 1 John 1:7. What light is that?

J.T. That is God, as we already remarked, "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (verse 5). What we are dealing with now is the Lord's statement: this verse we read in this wonderful chapter; John 8. It is a most potent and pregnant verse. It follows on all that we have had in these readings -- the sequence, you might say -- what marks christianity. John wrote in the period of christianity; he wrote this gospel long after he became indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Peter at the gate of the temple at Jerusalem said to the lame man, "Look on us". That implied a spiritually substantial condition in two servants of the Lord; not, 'Look on Christ', but "Look on us". That is what christianity is. It is spiritual, a substantiality here in man, effected by the Spirit. Christ was infinitely substantial in the same sense, but now it is also in the saints.

J.H.E. The disciples were first called christians in Antioch. Would this be seen there?

J.T. That is one of the passages that enters into what we are speaking of. It was a wonderful thing there. Paul and Barnabas remained there for a year teaching in the assembly to bring out this great thing. The Spirit in the assembly effects it, and thus there is something concrete effected in man that can be presented as a testimony in the gospel.

A.B.P. Is what you are speaking of seen concretely in chapter 9? The Lord prefaces His sign there with the words, "As long as I am in the world, I am the

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light of the world" (verse 5). But the man really grew during the absence of Christ. I wondered if that might illustrate Christ's position in heaven and life seen in the saints here.

J.T. Yes. The assembly is developed here, not in the immediate presence of Christ. He is absent. "Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things", Acts 3:21. And that is stressed in "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven", Acts 1:11. So His absence is real. But then it says, "shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven". In the meantime the Spirit comes and life and other great results in relation to the assembly are developed through Him; that is, in the company, and all involves following. The book of Acts unfolds what it calls "the way", Acts 9:2. This contemplates what we are speaking of. It refers to christianity, which is worked out in the power of the Spirit while Christ is received in heaven, pending the restitution of all things.

A.P.T. "To whom shall we go?" chapter 6: 68. Is that indicative of the line on which the Lord is leading in chapter 8?

J.T. Quite so. Chapter 6 leads to that end. "Thou art the holy one of God" (verse 69), was especially in Peter's mind. It refers to Him as the true Aaron. The Lord does not suggest that of Himself in chapter 8. Nor is it what He is in the sense of life; what He is as the light of the world is in mind, not only light to the Jews but light universally.

W.W.M. Paul in 2 Corinthians 4 says, "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels" (verse 7), and he goes on to speak of the life of Jesus that is manifested. Would that be what you refer to in the saints?

J.T. Yes. "... for the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (verse 6).

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God shone in Paul's heart and in other hearts, and it was shining out in them.

A.N.W. The Lord says to His disciples, "Ye are the light of the world", Matthew 5:14. But having the light of life would be more enjoyment.

J.T. Peter says, "Look on us". Why did he not say, 'Look on Christ'? That would not fit there because Christ was concealed in the heavens. That is, the assembly, or the saints who form it, as indwelt by the Spirit -- what is effected by the Spirit now -- is confirmative of what is in Christ. Paul says, "... for glory to God by us", 2 Corinthians 1:20. It is through the saints the truth is worked out in a practical sense. Peter, at the beginning of the dispensation, is calling attention to the concrete thing, what is under the eye of men. When Christ was here the testimony was set forth in Him, but now it is the Spirit operating in the assembly. Christ is, of course, the theme, but the Spirit here is the power by which the truth is effected and the testimony maintained.

E.McK. It speaks of the disciples as being "of the way". The Lord says to Saul, "why dost thou persecute me?" chapter 9: 4. Does that confirm what is being said -- Christ as testimony in the saints?

J.T. Quite so; that is just the point; Saul was putting the saints into prison. The attack was against "the disciples of the Lord": the Lord regarded them as Himself. He sent Saul to Damascus. The saints came before his eyes again in Damascus.

R.W.S. When the apostles were told to go into the temple and speak to the people all "the words of this life" (Acts 5:20), what was meant?

J.T. Filling out what we are speaking of. Peter said to the Lord, "thou hast words of life eternal" (John 6:68); but it was the "words of this life" that they were to proclaim; that is, the life of Jesus, but that life is re-expressed in the saints. The assembly is thus the fulness of Christ.

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A.R. That is christianity, not only what we say but what we are.

J.T. That is right -- "all the words of this life". They were that. That was implied in Peter's words, "Look on us". That is in the very beginning of the testimony in Acts.

A.R. It says of David that he was ruddy. Does that suggest that life was there?

J.T. Just so, and Abigail is the counterpart of that; she is a woman of beautiful countenance and good understanding; that is the assembly reflecting Christ. What you see in Christ, in that way, you see in the assembly.

T.E.H. Does the anointing have in mind that life may be fully expressed?

J.T. Yes. It gives the saints dignity and power. Anointing as generally seen in Scripture has an official significance. In the New Testament it is by the Holy Spirit.

C.N. Would the end of Acts 2 confirm what you are saying? "And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers ... they received their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God, and having favour with all the people; and the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved" (verses 42 - 47).

J.T. What delightful seasons they had! Think of three thousand fresh converts -- what freshness, what power and what enjoyment! It was abundant life; John 10:10.

J.A.P. What is the difference between eternal life, which is enjoyed amongst the saints, and what we are speaking of now?

J.T. It is included. The Spirit in the assembly involves a sphere of life. Any exercised person coming in amongst the brethren normally gathered would be affected. They are affected by what they find.

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Normally, christians love one another, as they did in the beginning. Many other things could be said, of course. The book of Acts has many illustrations of it. They show what accrued from the Shepherd coming in and affording life abundantly. "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly".

R.W.S. Would you carry that thought down to today?

J.T. It is a question of what there is; whether you can speak truthfully. You can see the difference between the abundance in Acts 2 and what followed as compared with later years, and our own times. This is a day of small things. Things are small, but still we have the real thing; the idea of the remnant is what is real; the same as at the beginning only in a smaller way.

R.W.S. The quality is there although the quantity might not be?

J.T. Just so. The remnant is part of the original, as has often been remarked. It is not a fag end.

F.N.W. Is there a certain parallel in the recovery in Nehemiah's day? It speaks of the city being inhabited by only a few, and after it is built up there is a celebration. The feast of tabernacles was held and it was such as had not been since the days of Joshua.

J.T. Just so. The prophets link up what there was with the full result in earlier days. We have in principle the same thing now.

T.E.H. Evidently Paul and Apollos worked in Corinth on this line to establish life in an agricultural sense.

J.T. They did. The Lord says to Paul, I have much people in this city. A large number evidently were gathered, and what we have been saying illustratively as to this country where there is much life from the land, applies to Corinth. Paul planted and Apollos watered and God gave the increase.

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D.P. The jailer asked for lights. Did he desire from Paul and Silas the light that you are speaking of?

J.T. I think so. That is a sort of clue which connects with chapter 20, where it is said that there were many lights in the upper room at Troas. These, no doubt, were figurative of the results of Paul's ministry, because the persons mentioned in verse 4 as with Paul were the fruit of his work. We have their names given and the cities whence they came.

A.N.W. And then of the Philippians he says, "among whom ye appear as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life", Philippians 2:15, 16.

J.A.P. The prayer meeting at Philippi was by the river.

A.Pf. In Psalm 107 it says: "He maketh the wilderness into a pool of water", but you must have fertile soil. Is that life out of death?

J.T. It is how God comes in to effect fruitfulness. We know also from the prophets that in the millennial day the earth will be fruitful. The wilderness is turned into a fruitful land. God does that. He turns the flint into a fountain of water. If there is no water on the earth, fruitfulness will soon go and the population will soon die.

A.P.T. Does the migratory principle begin when Adam and Eve are driven out of the garden? Is there any moral suggestion from that point on?

J.T. It is seen first in Cain. Adam and Eve were driven out, but how far they went we cannot say. But we do know that Cain went into the land of Nod, but then God afforded him some care -- pointing to the Jews as under divine wrath, but nevertheless not wholly left. But the descendants of Seth, I believe, point to christianity, reduced to a few at the end -- in Noah and his family. I believe that is how things worked out until Noah's day. Corruption alas, prevailed, but nevertheless the light was carried through.

C.N. "But he secureth the needy one on high

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from affliction, and maketh him families like flocks", Psalm 107:41. I wondered if that would help.

J.T. Yes. Psalm 107 is the first psalm of the last book, looking to the millennial day. It is in Abraham that we really get the migratory principle. He is watched over, and so Psalm 107 has that in mind as applying to a future day. The redeemed will be gathered out of the countries. It has already taken place in the earlier history of Israel, but it is going to take place finally, presently.

A.P.T. Abraham had that in mind, did he not? he looked for a city.

J.T. Quite so; the idea is a city of habitation. See how the brethren like to get together. Things are very shallow, but nevertheless there is some little enjoyment, but we can see from the Scripture how it was at Pentecost and subsequently; and a similar result will be seen later -- among the Jews.

J.T.Jr. Referring again to Troas; would the idea be that the many lights would be the superlative idea in this life-line, whereas you have another line of things in Eutychus who slept, and fell down? His life was still in him, of course, but he fell because he was asleep.

J.T. Quite so; that brings up a negative line of things, but the resuscitating power in Paul is very encouraging, showing what christianity is, potentially, if a vessel is available to be used for it.

J.T.Jr. Do we not have to deal with that kind of thing all the time? There are those that are in the truth, like Paul's company, and then others who are liable to fall down because they are in a dangerous position.

J.T. Yes, and our care meetings and other such services are to be devoted to rescuing them.

R.W.S. "Follow me" would be intended to regulate our lives in relation to the assembly and the testimony generally. I was thinking of your allusion

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to immigrants and rivers; a believer today following the Lord would follow the rivers, that is, the channels through which grace and refreshment flow. He would not be deliberately absent from the meetings.

F.H.L. Is it the full thought of discipleship that disciples become sons of light as in chapter 12?

J.T. I think John has a list of the sons of light. Each of the special cases in his gospel, I believe, is a son of light. Those who believe in the light are sons of light; John 12:36.

W.R. Do you see this working out in the Thessalonian saints? They became models for all that believed in Macedonia and Achaia.

J.T. Yes. In the second epistle hope is omitted, showing the tendency is to drop and leave out hope, but it marks the first letter.

A.B.P. Is some particular phase of life set forth in the sheep?

J.T. I think we must touch on chapter 10 now and see how they come in. There are one hundred and fifty-three fishes mentioned early in chapter 21, but at the end we have sheep. They are saints, I would say, particularly of this dispensation. But chapter 10 is full of precious truth. We began to read in verse 10, "The thief comes not but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I am come that they might have life" (that is the sheep) "and might have it abundantly". And in verse 27, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them life eternal; and they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father. I and the Father are one". Our subject now comes on to eternal relations. However rough and disturbed the experiences that are ahead of us, we need not dread them. The Lord will carry us through. No one shall seize us out of His hand, and no one can

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seize us out of the hand of His Father. We have been instructed, especially in recent years, about divine Persons and their functions. It is not merely to have the truth as doctrine, but to have it practically in our minds; how the Father and the Son are engaged with us sovereignly. The Father by Himself and the Son by Himself, and yet in infinite unity.

A.B.P. Is that why He reverts to the Father? He says, "I and the Father are one". Does that take it from the personal -- My Father -- to the way God is known in this dispensation?

J.T. It is first, "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father". That should touch us -- that we are in the hands of divine Persons. The Father is viewed as the greater in the Son's language. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them life eternal; and they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one can seize out of the hand of my Father". So that we are bound up there in the hands of the Father and the Son. And then, as you say, "I and the Father are one". There is infinite unity between them. The Lord takes His position in lowly grace in that relation.

A.R. Does the use of the term 'sheep' suggest the idea of exposure? The sheep are exposed to attack, but secure in the care of divine Persons.

J.T. Just so. That has come to light in our times. These late wars especially have brought out how exposed the brethren are in military settings. What can we do? God has put us there. It is no accident. It is to bring out, I believe, the care of the Father and the Son for the sheep.

A.A.T. What has John in his mind in speaking of perishing?

J.T. In the types it alludes, I think, to the period

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after the spies return from searching the land, when a great number fell in the wilderness. They piled up as dead in that bit of the wilderness. Think of the number of persons, six hundred thousand, perishing in a comparatively short time! Of course, we are accustomed now to carnage by the wars, but six hundred thousand persons out of a relatively small total perishing under the judgment of God was tremendous. I believe that is the allusion. It is perishing in the wilderness.

E.McK. Is it falling short of the purpose of God?

J.T. That is what it would imply. Many are professedly christians, but they fall in the wilderness. Israel later had to traverse the same territory, and how solemnising it must have been! That section of Numbers is most solemn. What bones were seen! Death so strikingly came into their history as a testimony to the severity of God on those in outward relationship with Him, but who were in manifest rebellious infidelity.

R.W.S. When Peter said, "Lord, here are two swords", did he for the moment forget that he was being protected by His hands, and the other disciples, too, and they would be carried through?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord was speaking, you might say, in figurative language, to put them on themselves, as they were about to be deprived of Him, of His protection, for a moment. "I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad" Matthew 26:31. Peter took the Lord's words literally, failing to understand His position then. The Shepherd would rise and look after them, according to the teaching in John 10 of which we are speaking. Not a hair of the heads of the saints shall perish. "For thy sake we are put to death all the day long; we have been reckoned as sheep for slaughter. But in all these things we more than conquer through him that has loved us", Romans 8:36, 37.

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A.R. It is helpful to see that our brethren who have been taken into military service are there by the will of God.

J.T. "The good and acceptable and perfect will of God", Romans 12:2. It is not always easy to accept that, but it is to be realised.

J.T.Jr. The ownership does not change. The idea of seizing out of His hand would imply that someone might try to change the ownership.

J.A.P. The Lord uses the word 'guarded'. He says, "those thou hast given me I have guarded", John 17:12.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (18)

John 11:17 - 44

J.T. We finished our last inquiry on our subject, Life, as seen in John 10, that is, as seen in the saints viewed as sheep. But the facts in our present chapter would show that we have to view the saints there in another relation, namely, as a family. It will, perhaps, elucidate the whole subject by comparing the idea of the sheep with that of the family. Chapter 11 later speaks of the children of God scattered abroad, and it may help us all to be reminded that this sorrowful fact exists, and that there is such a family. The chapter also contemplates them being gathered together into one. This, as I hope we shall see, is that they may come into eternal life, as seen in this chapter. It is clear that we should keep the family in mind, and that those of us who are believers are of it. If we are scattered by any circumstances the word would be that we should be together, gathered together "into one". The Lord died for that purpose. John 10 becomes very important to us now in view of our subject, for the thought of eternal life is seen in it in a collective sense, and in a very full sense; that is, life "abundantly". The Lord said He had come that the sheep might have life and that they might have it abundantly. The Lord saw fit to stress in this section the idea of sheep. The subject runs on to chapter 12, but the glory of God and the glory of the Son of God are contemplated as the ultimate end in these chapters.

A.B.P. Family life would be of much higher order than life as represented in the flock?

J.T. Well, in a way; but if we regard the flock as the Lord speaks of it, that they know Him as He knows the Father, we are on a high level and we have

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the truth of the one flock as composed of, not only the Jewish sheep, but of the gentile sheep, which would really merge in the idea of the body. The question is, therefore, whether the family in chapter 11 is to be regarded as on the level of sonship, or is it not rather contemplated as in the circumstances presented? That is, it is a family in great sorrow, but they are the objects of Christ's affections, for it is said, "Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus" (verse 5). Moreover, it is said, "Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick" (verse 3). And again, the Jews said, "Behold, how he loved him!" (verse 36). So that it would look as if it is to introduce us into the love circle, another phase of the collective position, to which eternal life attaches.

A.N.W. The relationships which operate horizontally are definitely stressed in this chapter, confirming what you say, rather than the thought of being sons in relation to a divine Person.

J.T. Father and son are not in mind, save in the sense Lazarus may have occupied the place of head, but he was a brother, not a father.

C.A.M. Romans 8:21 reads, "... that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God". In another part of the chapter it speaks of the sons of God. Would it connect the idea of children with the present time in that setting?

J.T. I think it does. John, in his epistle, says, "Now are we the children of God". That is what John says about the children, and he says in chapter 1 of his gospel that God has given the saints who receive Christ the right to take the place of children of God; and Paul's treatment of the subject seems to be in accord with all this, for he says, "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God", Romans 8:16. It is a present known thing, but no less a witness than the Spirit Himself, and to us,

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or rather to our spirits. Therefore, the subject of the family from the standpoint of children becomes clear, I think, in these scriptures. "The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are children of God".

A.R. Were not relationships out of proportion in chapter 11? Pressure and sorrow were necessary to adjust them in relation to Christ. Lazarus had too great a place in their minds.

J.T. Love had to be known amongst them. The love was there in Christ. "Behold, how he loved him!" That was the public witness; and then again, "Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick". The Lord's disposition was clearly apprehended, but what were the actual conditions of the three members of the family? Probably the consideration of all this would appeal to us as to where we are family-wise.

A.R. Colossians speaks of love in the Spirit. Would that be the balance?

J.T. It would indeed: "... your love in the Spirit", Colossians 1:8. We learn love from Christ, but it is in the power of the Spirit that we love. Among other things, "the fruit of the Spirit is love", Galatians 5:22.

J.T.Jr. Would you say that the testimony has come down to us largely through families?

J.T. I would say that. "The book of Adam's generations" (Genesis 5:1), refers to Adam's family, and so with the generations of Noah, and Terah, and Isaac, and Jacob. It is the way that the testimony has come down to us, culminating in the great family, that is, the family of God. I think we ought to begin at the very root of the thing and see how we are in relation to one another family-wise.

A.I. Would the idea of the family of God be seen in the Acts with Peter and John? It is said that they went together into the temple.

J.T. That would be official, rather. They were both apostles, one leading officially, and the other

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taking a second place; another side of our position. Some of those who serve as Levites become leaders and others are not leaders, perhaps, but make better seconds than firsts. I think Peter and John would help us on those lines; but the family thought, beginning with Adam, should be kept in mind, and then the comparison with sheep in chapter 10. We must not pass that over. It seems to me it is important to link the two chapters together. The idea of the sheep also begins early in Genesis. Abel was a keeper of sheep, we are told, and the idea runs down and is very greatly stressed in John 10. Then, another thing that will help us is that the idea of sheep is seen in Christ Himself. He is called a Lamb -- the Lamb of God -- in John 1. The word there is not diminutive, but conveys a full-grown thought. The word 'Lamb' in Revelation is diminutive; that is, one peculiarly defenceless and thus exposed to persecution and suffering. Then another thing is that the paschal lamb was in the houses of the Israelites for four days before it was slain, so it seems that these references would help us to understand what the idea of sheep represents as applicable to the saints.

A.P.T. This gospel begins with the designation "the Lamb of God" applied to Christ and finishes with the Lord applying the idea of sheep to His own.

J.T. Yes; in John 21 He first regards them as lambs and then as sheep. The sheep are to be shepherded; the sheep and the lambs are to be fed. So that John sets this side of the truth very pronouncedly before us and I think it will help us to make a comparison of John 10, in that sense, with John 11, for in the latter we merge from the sheep character into the family. Eternal life has application to both features.

A.A.T. Are you emphasising in chapter 11 the Lord's love to the family -- those at Bethany -- or are you emphasising the love that is in the family itself?

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J.T. Well, it is the love that is in Christ that is mentioned first. We learn it from Him. "Lord, behold, he whom thou lowest is sick"; and also, "Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus".

C.F.E. The two sisters of this family are greatly concerned as to their brother. How would you apply that to ourselves?

J.T. Well, that is what will come before us, whether there are real family feelings. But then we need to keep before us first the idea of sheep feelings, to make way for the family. Chapter 10 treats of the sheep.

C.A.M. Would you say there is a difference as to origin if we think of ourselves as sheep and as children? I was thinking especially of John's gospel -- of the Lord calling us by name. In Luke's gospel the Lord goes to find the lost sheep. I suppose that is rather a different line, would you not say?

J.T. John 10 does not present the truth from the side of origin; the allusion is to Adam naming the creatures. We have to go back to Genesis for the roots, we might say, of everything. We have to understand what would be in Adam's mind when he used the word 'sheep'. It is to run down -- through the passover, and then to be applied to the Lord Himself. I think that is the way to reach an understanding of John 10; what God had put into Adam's mind. Adam was given wonderful ability by God to name His creatures, and whatever name he gave a creature that was its name. It is there as a lesson-book ever since, and that must come into chapter 10 as regards sheep. If anyone will look at the number of times the word 'sheep' is used in this chapter he will see that the Lord is stressing the idea of that creature as applicable to the saints in a figurative way.

A.N.W. Does it help at all to see that the idea

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seems to come into the Lord's mind at the sight of the blind man cast out?

J.T. Yes. I think the subject begins in chapter 9 and runs through chapter 10 into chapter 11. At first the man who had been blind is passive, and yet he became aggressive when the truth required it, and in him it works out on moral lines.

A.R. Does it correspond with Paul's word to the Ephesian elders? He enjoins them to take heed to themselves and shepherd the assembly of God.

J.T. Quite so. "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own", Acts 20:28.

J.T.Jr. Would it be that resulting from chapter 9 the principle of subjection is expressed in the sheep? The man was sent, was he not?

J.T. Just so. So that these thoughts ought to help us as brethren to take account of one another according to what the word 'sheep' conveys, carried down to us in the wisdom of God from Adam, the Spirit of God taking it on later and carrying it through to the book of Revelation. We have to inquire whether we have the traits that characterise that creature.

C.N. So that we get in verses 2 - 5: "He that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. When he has put forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice". It is not exactly that something creates these moral features in the sheep, but they are there.

J.T. Yes; they are there. Notice, it is all the sheep. He puts them all forth: "When he has put forth all his own"; "put forth" meaning that He is

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influencing them to go on in a right direction, out of the Jewish fold; out of the world, we might say. "When he has put forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. But they will not follow a stranger, but will flee from him, because they know not the voice of strangers". So that the application is very strong to the Lord's people today as "scattered abroad". The Lord will put them out, as it were, influencing them so as to take them out of human organisations, to bring them into one flock where He is the one Shepherd.

A.B.P. Would you say that Eve failed to set forth the characteristics of a true sheep? She followed a stranger, not discerning that it was the voice of a stranger.

J.T. Just so. She listened to the serpent. That is an important point, that we do not listen to any other voice but the voice of the true Shepherd. He not only calls upon us to follow Him, but He would influence us, putting us out of the evil; "putting" refers to influence, which the Lord would render to anyone ready to leave.

A.P.T. Chapter 11, in regard to Martha, says, "And having said this, she went away and called her sister Mary secretly, saying, The teacher is come and calls thee. She, when she heard that, rises up quickly and comes to him" (verses 28 - 30). Does the thought of sheep merge there with the family? Is there a link there between the two thoughts?

J.T. Yes. She did not wait for Him to come to her. Had she been an unspiritual woman she would say, Why does He not come to me? You often find that, that people are hurt because they are not visited and made much of, sometimes, as among the saints, keeping out of the way so that others must come to them; but Mary is not among those.

D.P. Do you view the sheep as a development

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from the lamb, having instinctive feelings and ability to suffer?

J.T. The Lamb in chapter 1, as we pointed out, does not convey the same idea as in the book of Revelation where you have the word 'Lamb' used many times. There it is a diminutive thought, as we noted. Such an one is not pugnacious in any sense, nor is the idea of the Lamb in John 1 in any sense combative, but it is mature, and the chapter shows that that is just what the Lord was.

F.S.C. Isaiah 53 says, "He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and was as a sheep dumb before her shearers, and he opened not his mouth" (verse 7). Is that the character?

J.T. That is right; the original in Isaiah compared with its translation in the Septuagint would show that the words 'lamb' and 'sheep', as expressing the sufferings of Christ in this passage, are interchangeable.

W.W.M. Do you think that "the generations of Jacob" mentioning Joseph first suggests that Joseph had the character or nature of a sheep?

J.T. Well, he had that character but more than that is in mind. You are quoting from Genesis 37:2, and there is not a word afterwards about Jacob's generations until we come to chapter 46, showing Joseph is outstanding in the mind. He is just left, as it were, for the minds of the saints to think of that person until the time comes for the others to be mentioned. The suggestion is that, morally, the others are not worth mentioning until they make a confession about their guilt. So that there is more than the idea of a sheep there; it is rather that of a son; for it is said in verse 3 that "Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, because he was son of his old age; and he made him a vest of many colours". It is the distinction of Christ that is in view, and that no matter how many there are or how much money

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they may have, the Jews will not come into recognition with God until they make confession of their hatred and murder of Christ.

J.S. Is John in chapter 10 introducing us to the last Adam?

J.T. Well, the last Adam is certainly in mind in John 1, where the Lord distinctively names people, but in chapter 10 He is stressing Himself as marked by the characteristics of the true Shepherd and the disciples as possessing the characteristics of His sheep. The point is not that they are called sheep, but rather what characterises them; that they are already known to be sheep.

J.S. Is it more the Shepherd endearing Himself to their hearts in John 10?

J.T. Yes; hearing His voice and following Him; they are already known to be His sheep.

C.A.M. They are seen as possessing a marked personality in chapter 10.

J.T. They are, and it is a group or class rather than so many individuals. The idea is collective: the one flock and the one Shepherd. They come into life on that line. It is a collective principle.

The time now requires that we should proceed to the family and see how its traits are seen, or not seen, as the case may be, in chapter 11. The Lord is introduced into it as the One who loves them all, but especially that He loves the one who is sick, which is comforting, for there are a good many sick among the saints.

C.A.M. So that the setting of the chapter has sorrow in it from the very beginning.

J.T. Quite so; it is a family, but in sorrow. So that what the Lord would help us in now is to see how, in connection with this, the truth as to life is worked out.

A.A.T. In 1 Corinthians 11 some being sick, and death there, are spoken of. Is that similar to John 11?

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J.T. Well, one of them was sick and he died. But at Corinth it was because of bad conduct: "On this account many among you are weak and infirm", 1 Corinthians 11:30. We cannot say there was any cause for the death and sickness of Lazarus any more than we can say that there was a cause for the blindness of the man in John 9. They each afford an opportunity for divine love to operate.

C.N. So he says distinctly in verse 4: "This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified by it".

J.T. Yes. It is just the same principle as in chapter 9; the blindness is not because of sin, the Lord says, "Neither has this man sinned nor his parents, but that the works of God should be manifested in him" (verse 3). And so here, this sickness is not unto death; it is not blameworthy on Lazarus. It is for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

C.N. The glory of God, and the Son of God being glorified by it, is greater than the idea of death.

J.T. Just so; God is taking opportunity of circumstances and causing His glory to shine, not only the Father's glory, but the glory of the Son of God. That saints should sicken and some die because of bad conduct in the assembly is most humiliating. But the sickness and death of Lazarus was the result of the sovereign ordering of divine love -- for the glory of God and the glory of the Son of God. This involved resurrection. It is the working out of love in the family of God.

A.N.W. In stressing the Lord's love for them, are you implying that it is on a higher level than their love for one another?

J.T. Obviously; how much can we say about their love one toward another? Evidently there was some love, but did Martha love as much as Mary?

A.B.P. Mark refers to the Lord as being hungry

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when He left Bethany; Mark 11:12. Might that suggest that the result had not been reached that is in view in John 11?

J.T. The conditions were clearly not so good then as they were in the scene depicted in the opening of John 12. You are suggesting, possibly, that the Lord left without breakfast!

A.B.P. Possibly, but also without His love being responded to as He would have it.

J.T. We cannot always use negatives to establish positives, but it is remarkable that He was hungry. Elsewhere it says He went out to Bethany and spent the night; there must have been some attraction and restfulness there, liberty for His spirit. It is remarkable that when He was about to go up to heaven He led the disciples out as far as Bethany. He evidently regarded it as a love sphere -- such as was suitable for Him to ascend from.

C.A.M. Would you say that the saints looked at in chapter 11 are regarded as capable of more refined feelings, or more intense feelings, suitable, for instance, for bereavement? I am comparing them with the idea of the sheep.

J.T. I think what you are saying is right. We are in the line now for spiritual refinement, corresponding with the epistle to the Philippians: "... that ye may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent", chapter 1: 10. The Lord loved them all, we are told -- "Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus". He loved them, apparently, in that order. That might be the order of respect, because Martha apparently was somewhat the leader in the house. But is He going to leave them as He found them, or is He not going to bring in love such as had not been fixedly experienced? The glory of God and the glory of the Son of God are about to be manifested there. The Lord was going to bring the family already known in Bethany into new circumstances. The

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material is to be better. They had been through discipline. There is to be a better foundation for the development of love now than there could have been before, and that is what I think we should keep in mind as to how this refinement is to develop, and how the Lord takes advantage of circumstances to develop it. And thus the question as to the saints of today, whether all this terrible sorrow which has continued for several years and is pressing upon the people of God is going to develop anything better than there has been there before, or is it just going to enable us to hold the ground? I think it is to bring in something better; "more and more" is the principle.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that the Lord allows the wrench to come in a natural way, in relation to these bonds that He has created Himself, in order that they might be replaced by something more wonderful?

J.T. He created them Himself, as you say, because all these affections and relationships are in God's creation, in that way. But the Lord Himself, the Word, is the One that did everything. So that now He is going to bring in new conditions, and I think that is the thing to keep in mind, because it is for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified.

A.R. Is that beyond believing in the Son of God? The Lord said to the man in John 9, "Dost thou believe on the Son of God?"

J.T. That is the root of the thing: faith must be there; the glory of the Son of God as apprehended in our souls is founded on that. It is what shines out in Himself.

C.N. Does it involve resurrection? He says to Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life".

J.T. Well, that is what we are hoping to come to. The Lord came to Bethany. The arrival is spoken of in verse 17. There is much said earlier that we have not time to go into, as to what happened among the

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disciples relative to Lazarus; as to the Lord staying away until Lazarus died, etc.; then it is said, "Jesus therefore on arriving found him to have been four days already in the tomb". Then we have another thing mentioned -- the distance Bethany was from Jerusalem. Are we not reminded thus of the centre of things that this chapter contemplates? Jerusalem is mentioned and Bethany in relation to it. Bethany cannot be regarded as a leading thought in view of the new dispensation; it is not the centre of things but it had a place in the old -- "the village of Mary and Martha". Love was known there, as we have noted.

A.T.D. Would that be why the Lord says to Peter in John 21"Lovest thou me more than these?" (verse 15)?

J.T. Just so; he had to establish His claim, and that is the appendix of this gospel; it is to bring out these details. John says in effect, I finished all I had to say in chapter 20, but now there is this matter of Peter, and how it is going to be finished; how we are going to reach the high level of the work of God in a recovered man; in the leading apostle, but in a recovered man. And he has to show that he loves. The Lord is challenging him as to the measure of his love -- is it more than that of the others? Peter is tested out, the Lord going on with the test until the Lord says the third time, verse 17: "Art thou attached to me?" and then Peter said to him, "Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I am attached to thee". We have often pointed out before from the New Translation that the second word 'knowest' in this verse is objective knowledge; that is, Peter is saying to the Lord, You can see in me that I love you; he is not appealing to the Lord's divine knowledge; he is referring to what is manifest. And that is what we have to come to in what we have referred to as refinement, that the manifestation of love is

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capable of being discerned by anyone who has a spiritual eye.

R.W.S. In verse 22 Martha says, "I know, that whatsoever thou shalt ask of God, God will give thee". And then she alludes to the last day. I wondered if we could infer from that that she had not really the knowledge of the Son of God in her soul; she had not come into the gain of chapter 10, because He says there: "I and the Father are one" (verse 30). She was orthodox so far, but she put the Lord in the attitude of a suppliant to God instead of the Son of God, one with the Father.

J.T. Yes. What you are bringing up is important because we have to consider the quality of these three persons: what Martha was spiritually; what Mary was and what Lazarus was. She had some orthodox knowledge. But now it would seem as if she had reached a point in talking to the Lord that we may call her standard. He says to her, verses 25 and 26: "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die. Believest thou this?" Now she is squarely challenged as to what she believes -- not what she had believed before she came to Him but what she now believed. "Believest thou this?" And then she says, "Yea, Lord; I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who should come into the world". That is her confession of faith. She does not just say that she believed all the Lord had said; she does say, however, that she believes that the Lord was the Christ, the Son of God who should come into the world. If we could leave her there and go on to Mary, and then leave Mary where we find her and then go on to Lazarus, then we should perhaps arrive at an understanding of the respective states of these three persons. Later, as in the light of chapter 12 we could note the contrast as the result of what had been

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effected through the Lord's visit. Thus, as to ourselves, we have to come to a sphere of things in which God's glory is shining and the glory of the Son of God is shining. This is where the gospel has set us as the family of God.

A.N.W. Mary excelled Martha in curtailing her statement to the Lord (verse 32). As was pointed out, she repeats, in part, what Martha had said: "Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died". That is her complete statement.

J.T. Yes; then we have, "Jesus ... when he saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, was deeply moved in spirit" -- there is nothing of that at all in His relations with Martha.

J.H.H. Would the fact that the Jews moved with Mary suggest that there was more of a sheep character in her?

J.T. I think what is seen in her is the power of spirituality. How much of it do I have? The work of God requires that those who are the subjects of it should have influence. If I do not influence the brethren for good it is certain I am not spiritual. It is not only that one teaches them, but he influences them. And that is what I think we learn here "... when he saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping" -- she moved them; they did not weep of themselves; it was her influence -- "Jesus ... was deeply moved in spirit, and was troubled, and said, Where have ye put him? They say to him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept". Did He not weep too because of it? Did He not join in the weeping? Is it not to call attention to the power of real spirituality, which Mary represents?

A.I. It is said of Martha that "she went away and called her sister Mary secretly, saying, The teacher is come and calls thee". What does that mean?

J.T. I think the Lord intended that her measure

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should be known. Each of us is exposed as to the measure he has. Why did she not continue the conversation with the Lord? There was certainly opportunity; no one intruded. She did well to go to her sister, but is that not her measure? Can she not carry on the conversation any further? Can she not ask any more questions? Can she not fortify herself further?

A.T.D. Does not the secrecy emphasise what you said about Mary's influence, that the Jews came with her; they did not know, possibly, where she was going.

J.T. No, they were influenced by her. Now as to the remarks made about Martha, I think they will help us to make a comparison in our souls before God as to these three persons, and how far each one proceeded, because the next chapter brings out where each one is in relation to the public position. It is the question of life that we are engaged with, and the life that is in mind refers to what is going on inwardly with us, but it shows itself in the way we move outwardly and the influence we have.

W.C.R. Would the reference to them in Luke 10 be the background to this?

J.T. I think it is; if the Spirit of God left only what Luke had to say, we would not have thought much of Martha, but the Spirit of God has not left it there; he has used John to bring forward those three, especially Martha and Mary, and it is now for us to see where we are, because we are really tested, every one of us here, as to this matter of life, as to how it works out in us family-wise; how we regard each other from the family standpoint.

R.W.S. All who are in the picture are affected. While the Jews are not prominent, even they seem to be affected. Is that in their favour?

J.T. Well, it is important that they are brought in here because it shows what measure of life there was, even affecting perhaps persons not born again.

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Certainly it is a testimony that we should influence people, even though they are not converted. And another thing is that some of the Jews evidently came from Jerusalem. We are told of the distance: "Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about fifteen stadia off, and many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary that they might console them concerning their brother". Jerusalem is thus brought into the scene; those at Jerusalem who publicly had the central position are capable of being affected genuinely by Mary, and the Lord joins in that; He weeps too.

A.R. Verse 45 would confirm what you say: "Many therefore of the Jews who came to Mary and saw what he had done, believed on him".

J.T. Yes. We shall see that in the next reading, God willing, concerning Lazarus; we are touching it now because of this matter of influence. Brethren in certain localities are much linked up naturally -- the question is whether such links are spiritually wholesome. We can hardly avoid it, but unless the spiritual dominates there will be damage. In the scene before us we have three naturally related, and the Lord has come into it to bring in spiritual relations, and one of the three has special spiritual influence, even with those that are natural, and that influence leads in the right direction.

A.P.T. In verse 39 we have, "Martha, the sister of the dead"; is there anything in that?

J.T. Her natural relation to Lazarus makes her prominent, but she makes an unspiritual remark: that her brother was four days in the grave, hence corruption had set in -- this would tend to create doubt and darkness.

A.P.T. It is followed up with a severe rebuke from the Lord: "Did I not say to thee, that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

J.T. She, and doubtless all, needed that word.

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J.H.H. Is it suggestive that after speaking to the Lord, the next thing we are told about Mary is that she fills the house with the odour of the ointment?

J.T. Yes. That is chapter 12, concerning which we hope to speak later, but there is still much in chapter 11 to be emphasised; the influence Mary had with the Jews and how the Lord's weeping came into that -- what a scene it is! You know how at funerals of the brethren much natural feelings come out, and of course, they should have their place, but whether room is made for the spiritual is the question. In this history the natural is seen receding and the spiritual becoming more and more predominant.

A.B.P. Does what is seen here mean that while those natural links exist we are to hold them in the light that, in themselves, they end in corruption?

J.T. Yes. In this respect the link is in what Martha says as to Lazarus. The Lord is not making much of that because He has the positive in mind; that is important, for the glory of God and of the Son of God are presently to appear notwithstanding the condition of Lazarus.

J.T.Jr. Martha's remark is a great drop from what she had said before (verse 27); you were saying she could not continue the conversation on that line, but she is able to speak about corruption.

J.T. Yes, thus she does not contribute to what was transpiring. We ought to bring in some contribution to what is spiritually current; Mary is doing that; and she is affecting others, and the Lord is joining in it.

A.N.W. One outstanding act with Mary is that in approaching the Lord she fell at His feet; that is conspicuous by its absence with Martha. As they drew near to the Lord, Mary, seeing Him, fell at His feet.

R.C. Do we not see the spirit of the family in Romans 16 in Paul's commendations and salutations

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to those who served him in the Lord, also the salutations of the assemblies of Christ to the saints at Rome?

J.T. They convey the mutual respect which love alone can circulate among the brethren.

A.B.P. The Lord refers to Abraham earlier in this gospel; do you think Abraham would fit in here where Martha felt uneasy? Did he not, in his offering of Isaac, put the claims of the divine will before family affections?

J.T. Quite so; he fits in here, not only as to Isaac, but as to his wife Sarah, because he calls her, "my dead". And that brings up the question of Machpelah and the great matter of the resurrection as seen in Thessalonians. We are getting a touch of it here. What a scene it would be at Machpelah if Sarah could have been raised immediately after burial! But the epistle to the Romans shows that although she had been dead for thousands of years the Lord could raise her: He is declared Son of God in power by resurrection of the dead. He is the One who is dominating the whole matter of death and burial. He has now come to the actual scene of death, so that we may see life vibrating, and death giving way. The Lord says to Martha, "Did I not say to thee, that if thou shouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"She had already spoken about the corruption, but now the question is whether she can see the glory; that is the next thing, whether we are capable of seeing it really. She had already said, "Lord; I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, who should come into the world". But did she really believe? Did she believe He could raise the dead? The Lord had said, "If thou shouldest believe ..." and that is the point as to us now, whether we really believe these things. "They took therefore the stone away". And the evangelist goes on, "And Jesus lifted up his eyes on high and said, Father, I thank thee that thou halt

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heard me; but I knew that thou always hearest me; but on account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. And having said this, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And the dead came forth". This is different from what will happen presently when the Lord comes; there will be no need to take the stone away; there was no need to take it away when He arose; He did not have the stone taken away. There is a modification and it is important to notice it.

C.N. Therefore, would you say there was a moral necessity for that request: "Take away the stone"?

J.T. I think we should come to it -- the force of it. It says, "They took therefore the stone away". The Lord had come, and all this had happened, and they took the stone away, therefore. "And Jesus lifted up his eyes on high and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me; but I knew that thou always hearest me; but on account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me". This is a stronger word than He said to Martha. "And having said this, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And the dead came forth, bound feet and hands with graveclothes, and his face was bound round with a handkerchief. Jesus says to them, Loose him and let him go". There are features here that will not appear presently when the Lord comes to raise the dead; there will be no accessory help at all; all will be done by Himself. So the bearing of this is for us as to what is to come out; what is seen in the face, the countenance of the man who has been in the grave. "Loose him and let him go", the Lord says.

A.R. It is the voice of the Son of God.

J.T. It is; and the Lord's word, "Loose him and let him go", is as if He said, Let life show itself. And the Lord would have in mind that the countenance

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must be seen; the face of the person who has been in the grave. Lazarus' face "was bound round with a handkerchief". Life as in the risen man is now to show itself; not simply what the Lord did but what the risen man can do. "Let him go" had this in mind.

W.R. In the fulness of this when the Lord comes death shall be swallowed up in victory: "Where, O death, is thy sting? where, O death, thy victory?" 1 Corinthians 15:55.

A.B.P. Do you have in mind that the movements of Lazarus would afford the objective knowledge referred to in John 21?

J.T. Just so; we shall see that in chapter 12, how people came and believed because of Lazarus.

F.S.C. The Father's glory enters into this and is also referred to in Romans 6.

J.T. Yes. Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father. How wonderful that is!

A.P.T. It says in Ecclesiastes 7, "It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting". Is there any spiritual suggestion in that? Does a wedding necessitate more spirituality than a funeral?

J.T. Spirituality is needed in both, but Ecclesiastes shows that it is specially needed where natural buoyancy is likely to prevail as at a wedding. But here we have divine Persons operating: the Father is in view; the Lord is speaking to Him. "Jesus lifted up his eyes on high and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me". Is He not drawing us away from the ordinary human level? He lifted up His eyes on high. Chapter 17 says, "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven". It is very similar, but not just the same; it is a question of elevation. But in both instances the Father and the Son are operating together; we have to add the Spirit, of course, especially when we come to the

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resurrection of the saints at the Lord's coming. But what a scene is now before us! The glory of God and the glory of the Son of God are here. What a thing it is to have part in that! As we, by the Spirit, apprehend it, the reflection of it will mark us.

J.S. Is the love we have seen earlier thus culminating in glory?

J.T. That is the idea: It is the glory of God, and the Son of God being glorified. That is what is happening in relation to Lazarus.

Ques. Do we see power connected here with the loud voice?

J.T. Yes; the power that is in the voice of the Son of God, as we have already noted in chapter 5. The hour is coming when all that are in the tombs shall hear His voice and shall come forth.

T.N.W. The Lord may allow one whom He loves to die. Would that be seen working out in what a great many of the saints are facing in the services?

J.T. That is suggested in what is before us. The Lord remained where He was till Lazarus died, but it was because He loved him, and so the glory shone -- the glory of God and the glory of the Son of God, and may we not add the glory of Lazarus? "Loose him and let him go" -- that glory was reflected in him as thus set free.

J.A.P. Does Lazarus give evidence of the sheep character? "The sheep follow him, because they know his voice". He calls Lazarus by name.

J.T. Quite so. Every one of the sleeping saints shall hear his name called out. What a time is ahead of us! What glory! What occasions of the display of divine love in divine Persons themselves in bringing those that are dead out of the tombs! Others are left there for a thousand years -- the wicked dead -- but divine love is displayed in regard of those that are asleep through Christ. So that the Lord would set us on our way with a word in this respect as to our

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great subject of life: how the actual resurrection will affect us. What a time there will be! It ought to stimulate us now; the older we are, of course, the nearer we are to it, so to speak, but what a time it will be!

A.P.T. Will any of us be the loser of anything spiritually if we do not go through the article of death? Verse 25 would indicate that we will not lose anything: "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die". Does that not show that in either case -- if we do not go through death or if we do -- we shall not lose anything from Him?

J.T. That is right, I think. "The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first". Well, you might say, that is an advantage, but the living are there -- "then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds", 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. So that, as Christ was raised from the dead, even those who are alive when He comes shall be quickened on account of God's Spirit that dwells in them. That is, I am changed, not raised from the grave, but changed on account of God's Spirit that dwells in me, that is full triumph, surely! That "the dead in Christ shall rise first" must be noted, but no doubt it alludes to the anxiety of the Thessalonian saints as to those who had fallen asleep. Those who are "the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep", chapter 4: 15.

J.S. Is the Spirit of God bringing all this into the present?

J.T. That is what it should be; that is what John has in mind in this section. You see all the redeemed joining the Lord and being caught up to be forever

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with Him -- so shall we be for ever with the Lord, as Scripture teaches. Do I distinguish between one who had been dead for thousands of years and one who had not died at all? It is a question of what the power is; how we are affected by it.

W.R. The Lord "cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And the dead came forth". Is that the voice of authority, not only to Lazarus but to those within the hearing of the voice?

J.T. It could be only authority literally affecting the one who is mentioned by name. It is the names mentioned that come. The wicked dead have to remain in their graves for a thousand years after the saints are raised.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (19)

John 11:41 - 57; John 12:1 - 19

J.T. At our last reading we dwelt somewhat on chapter 10 of this gospel and the early part of chapter 11, contrasting the sheep in chapter 10 with the family in chapter 11. The subject now is to be a continuation of the family, because we did not finish our inquiry on the previous occasion. It should be noted that the family, as seen in the scriptures read, refers to the real family of God, not a figurative family. A figurative family was represented in the two sisters and the brother at Bethany, whereas now the family of God is formally alluded to in the prophecy of Caiaphas. He refers to the children of God. He prophesied "that Jesus was going to die for the nation; and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad" (verse 52). I think the Lord would help us to dwell on this side of the family, for it is John's line of things largely; that is, the family viewed as children, not as sons. It is thought that the verses read in chapter 11 will help us on this point. Verse 41 says, "And Jesus lifted up his eyes on high", as if that is something to be noted, for everything He does is to be noted, particularly in this extraordinary circumstance of the raising of Lazarus. The Spirit would stress the state in which Lazarus was before his resurrection. It is said, "Martha, the sister of the dead, says to him, Lord, he stinks already, for he is four days there" (verse 39). And then it is said, "And the dead came forth, bound feet and hands with graveclothes, and his face was bound round with a handkerchief. Jesus says to them, Loose him and let him go" (verse 44). The condition in which he was as raised is also given.

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C.F.E. Do we see the change of the family here? The idea of the family brought about by the raising of Lazarus from the dead?

J.T. Well, pursuing the subject into the epistles, it is said in Colossians 2:12: "... buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead". That is an immense change in the family.

A.R. Is the idea that life is beyond corruption?

J.T. Just so; in Colossians you are in that state as risen with Christ. In Ephesians we are said to be not only risen, but raised up together, and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus; Ephesians 2:6. It is an immense change in the actual state of the family. And this enters into the service of God now.

A.A.T. That family had previously been together on natural lines, but as we are looking at it now the natural links are eclipsed, are they not?

J.T. We are advancing in the truth that is presented. This passage contemplates a great advance in the truth as to the application of life to the saints viewed as a family.

A.B.P. In 1 Corinthians 15 reference is made to that, is it not? "... when this corruptible shall have put on incorruptibility" (verse 54). Do we learn through this that we must have a right judgment of what is corruptible; not only what has become corrupted but what is capable of corruption?

J.T. Just so; how humbling it is. Paul speaks about our bodies of humiliation as in contrast to what we shall be. We shall be raised by Christ in bodies according to the image of His own body of glory. That, however, is a faith condition until we are actually raised. It is something to lay hold of; otherwise, we could not have the service of God as redemption involves it.

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A.R. It speaks in the end of Ephesians about loving our Lord Jesus in incorruption. Is that the idea?

J.T. That is true of us in a moral sense while down here, the ointment Mary had corresponds. The box is not mentioned. The actual quantity of pure nard, a pound, was held free of corruption.

C.A.M. How do you connect that scripture in Hebrews: "Behold, I and the children which God has given me. Since therefore the children partake of blood and flesh, he also, in like manner, took part in the same", chapter 2: 13, 14? You were speaking of the condition that the children are in.

J.T. That is the actual condition in which the saints were before redemption, but the Lord came into that condition so as to change it. Thus we have in the earlier part of the passage: "For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" (verse 11). That is the abstract condition that we are entitled to take on.

C.A.M. That is a great help. Do you look at John 11 as showing that the Lord passed through present conditions in order to bring us into the new condition?

J.T. Yes. He has been in them anticipatively, but He now looks up to heaven. It is an elevated thought. It is not an incident merely; it is a sign; we are to watch His movements. His eyes.

C.F.E. Would you differentiate the thoughts of sonship and children in relation to the service of God?

J.T. Well, sonship is relative to what we are saying, the condition we are entitled to anticipate by faith: "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:26. We cannot be said to be sons of God absolutely save in an abstract sense, because we are yet mortal. We receive sonship, it is said in Galatians 4. In Romans 8:23 it is said that we

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await adoption, which is the same word in the original as sonship, and the meaning of that is given as the redemption of our bodies. Our bodies are not yet redeemed in that sense, they being still mortal. Therefore the service of God is carried on in a provisional sense. God taking account of us provisionally, faith enabling us by the Spirit to lay hold of the abstract thought.

G.A.L. Isaiah says of God, "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, and whose name is Holy", chapter 57: 15. Does that connect with the thought of Jesus looking up on high here?

J.T. Just so. "Who is like unto Jehovah our God, who hath placed his dwelling on high; who humbleth himself to look on the heavens and on the earth?" Psalm 113:5, 6.

C.A.M. When this expression is used: "Jesus lifted up his eyes on high" -- does that convey the thought that the Lord was looking at what belongs to that realm of things?

J.T. The word 'heavenlies' in Ephesians is peculiar. It is plural. We are told that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies. It does not say in heaven, but "in the heavenlies". Here it is said, "Jesus lifted up his eyes on high". We are told in Colossians to set our minds on things above.

A.N.W. In John 17, it is said the Lord "lifted up his eyes to heaven"; that would be another thought?

J.T. It would be more definite as to the place of God Himself, but the idea of the heavenlies is more general. The point is that you want to know where they begin.

W.R. The Lord lifting up His eyes on high, saying, "Father, I thank thee that thou has heard me" (verse 41), would have the glory of the Father in mind.

J.T. He would. And He would carry His hearers with Him. That is another thing. He is here in

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leadership; He would carry us with Him. The whole ministry of christianity is to carry us with Him. "Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me", John 13:8. We have to understand that we have to be carried along with Him. Think of the system of glory above that would be in His heart when He lifted up His eyes!

A.B.P. Are we to be conversant with that?

J.T. Yes.

A.B.P. "But I knew that thou always hearest me" (verse 42) -- is that also for our benefit?

J.T. Quite so. There are several things that enter into this. In chapter 12 it is said, "Now is my soul troubled, and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But on account of this have I come to this hour. Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, I both have glorified and will glorify it again. The crowd therefore, which stood there and heard it, said that it had thundered. Others said, An angel has spoken to him. Jesus answered and said, Not on my account has this voice come, but on yours", (verses 27 - 30). It is that they might be affected to follow on. How can I turn aside when this is going on? That is the idea. John would carry us along into the great things that are in the Lord's mind.

J.T.Jr. Would that be the thought with Abraham? He was to lift up his eyes; he was told to do that twice. Then he had to go through the experience of the furnace. Would that be the corresponding things we have to go through in regard of death that we might reach the high places?

J.T. That helps as to what we are saying, because it is a question of Abraham coming into the things promised. He says, How shall I know? (Genesis 15:8). That is what every one of us ought to ask. How am I to know these things? And this is the way of it.

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W.C.R. Would Lazarus, being let go, be one who would be able to follow?

J.T. Yes. What is he to do? He has been let go. He has been in the state of death. The Spirit makes much of the state he was in. He came out of that state. That was by divine power. He is thus a risen man. That is how believers are regarded in Colossians. As risen and loosed, Lazarus is to be expressive of life and hence he must have his ears, his eyes, his hands and all his members available. We must have the vehicles of love to express the life we are brought into.

J.T.Jr. He would really take up his body in a new way. It would be a new experience. He had been dead, but now would take up his body in a fresh way.

J.T. Yes. He is never said to have spoken anything and yet as loosed and let go he would be expressing life, because people were believing on Jesus on account of him, showing he was not a dead man with a handkerchief on his head, but a living man, disengaged. He is set at liberty for the exercise of life.

E.A.L. Would the fact that the chief priests took counsel to kill Lazarus bear out what you are saying?

J.T. Exactly. They knew what it meant in the testimony. We shall see in the Lord's journey into Jerusalem how the whole position was affected by Lazarus. So that it is said, "The crowd therefore that was with him bore witness because he had called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from among the dead. Therefore also the crowd met him because they heard that he had done this sign" (verses 17, 18). That shows how essential life in believers is to the testimony. Many of the Jews, it is said, believed on Jesus on account of Lazarus (verse 11). What is our profession? Where are we at all if we are not moving on? Some of us were saying here last Lord's day of

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Elijah and Elisha, the two "went on". Applied to this chapter, Christ and Lazarus are going on. Transferring this to ourselves, we well may enquire as to the objective.

C.A.M. Certain things hampered Lazarus; you do not view that exactly as the result of sin, do you? This release is from other things that keep us from the realm of life, would you say?

J.T. The force of the passage is in what the Lord points to. I mean to say, we have to follow everything He does and says to be in the right way. So that it is said, "and the dead came forth, bound feet and hands with graveclothes, and his face was bound round with a handkerchief. Jesus says to them, Loose him and let him go" (verse 44). This is essential, because the Lord is saying in effect, I want him to come with Me, because chapter 13 speaks of part with Him. He is going on, and He wants the disciples with Him. The incident at the Jordan is helpful; that is, Elijah and Elisha. The two went on and talked. Where is the communion we have with one another? There must be some agreement in view of the holy communion we are brought into.

A.B.P. Up to this point, the work had been that of the Son of God. How can we join in the work of loosing him? What is our part? How can we uncover the face, for instance?

J.T. It is remarkable that his face is bound with a handkerchief. This would correspond with the handkerchief which was on the Lord's head; chapter 20: 7. But this, as the Lord had arisen, was folded in a distinct place by itself. What was behind the hands that laid the handkerchief in a place by itself? There is a distinction attaching to it, and relatively it is so with the handkerchief that was on Lazarus' face.

T.E.H. They were able to do something before that. They were told to remove the stone. What is involved in doing that prior to the other?

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J.T. It is clear that all this is not a figure of the resurrection to come. It is what is effected now. We will have no part in the resurrection when the Lord comes; He will do it all, but now there is a great deal to be done, and the saints are to be brought into it.

A.B.P. The saints grieved most of all that they would see Paul's face no more; Acts 20:38. That would be a face in which there was the evidence of life.

J.T. Quite so; a face well known by many in Ephesus, well known even by the children, you may be sure. He had told the elders that they would see his face no more.

A.R. It is said that Elijah and Elisha "talked" after they crossed the Jordan. It does not say they talked before that. Is there any point in that?

J.T. Well, it is a resurrection scene. That is what we are dealing with here. It is a resurrection condition of things that we are dealing with and it is a question of how each one of us can have part in that -- to help each other into it.

T.E.H. Would the Lord graciously help us in view of the ministry of late as to the forty days, so that we should be conversant with what goes on in the sphere of life?

J.T. That is another view of the matter. It is additional to Luke's first account. What happened on the first day of the week, according to Luke's gospel, would include the whole period of the forty days. But the second treatise is an extension, and he brings in the forty days. The book of Acts is enlargement, which principle is afforded to us in ministry.

A.A.T. I was interested in what you had to say about the handkerchief being about the face, but I also notice Lazarus' feet were bound. Does the whole body have to be released to express life?

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J.T. Yes. We are to yield ourselves to God as alive from among the dead, and our members as instruments of righteousness to God.

A.N.W. Are we not now in the region of life. God and the Son of God glorified in us? It is an expression of life.

J.T. That is what is in mind in this section; and the matter of prophecy is not to be neglected; hence Caiaphas comes into the position. We are told, verses 47 - 52: "The chief priests, therefore, and the Pharisees gathered a council, and said, What do we? for this man does many signs. If we let him thus alone, all will believe on him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation. But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, Ye know nothing nor consider that it is profitable for you that one man die for the people, and not that the whole nation perish. But this he did not say of himself; but, being high priest that year, prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the nation; and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad". This is set in here, the glory of God in resurrection being in mind. It is a bit of prophetic ministry; who the minister may be is not the point; it is real ministry; it is not of man, but of God. All ministry should be of that character, even though the vessels used are different. It is not of our own natural hearts; it is what God gives.

F.C.E. Would you say Caiaphas is used by God here for the moment?

J.T. Yes. John has this line of thought. He has the angel coming down once a year at the pool of Bethesda, chapter 5. That was a matter of mercy, though only once a year. Now it is Caiaphas prophesying because he was high priest. It is not to be despised. It was of value both as to Christ and as to

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the children of God. In view of our subject the gathering together of the children of God is most important. It is not the figurative family, but the real divine family, but for the moment scattered.

D.P. Would Mary and Martha share in the life in which Lazarus was, as raised, in view of the family setting?

J.T. Quite so. When we come to chapter 12 we shall get the family itself; not simply the family at Bethany. This is the spiritual instruction. The family of Bethany is there, but viewed in the light of resurrection. Lazarus is the first one mentioned "whom Jesus raised from among the dead". The Spirit of God directs our minds to Mary ultimately, but Lazarus is the one in the Lord's mind primarily. "The dead (man) Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead".

J.H.H. Was there a word for them all? The word to Lazarus was, "Come forth". The word to the others, "Loose him". It was mentioned that this is an adjustment period; was it an adjustment period for them all?

J.T. Quite so. If we are all scattered abroad, then the adjustment must involve every one of us. There was what was called the 'reconstruction period' after the previous war. I suppose we are going to get that now. That reconstruction period involves everybody. No one wants to be exempt from adjustment if he is sincere.

A.B.P. Does the word in Ephesians bear on it? "Ye who once were afar off are become nigh by the blood of the Christ", Ephesians 2:13.

J.T. Yes. It is the effect of ministry, and hence the position of Caiaphas here. He is used only once but he prophesied nevertheless. Balaam was also used in a series of prophesies on one occasion -- most remarkable ministry. He was a wicked man otherwise.

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God can hold a man for His own purposes at any time.

F.S.C. There is a reference to this in chapter 18: 12 - 14: "The band therefore, and the chiliarch, and the officers of the Jews, took Jesus and bound him: and they led him away to Annas first; for he was father-in-law to Caiaphas, who was high priest that year. But it was Caiaphas who counselled the Jews that it was better that one man should perish for the people".

J.T. You see how the Spirit of God keeps him and what he said before us. What he was himself is another matter. Maybe there was not anything there any more than there was in Balaam, or any more than there is in a man who speaks right words today, but is not a true believer.

W.C.R. Would the fact that the apostle Paul introduces the thought of the prophetic word to the Corinthians, show that he had in mind the gathering together into one in Corinth?

J.T. Yes. They were not gathered together into one. That is the very thing he says in the beginning of the first letter. They needed the prophetic ministry and that gives force to the word of Caiaphas in this setting in the subject of life.

J.T.Jr. He says later on, "Our heart is expanded", 2 Corinthians 6:11. It is a question of the affections getting expanded into the things that belong to us.

J.T. They were bound up. They were limited in their own affections. They were to expand themselves and ministry helps in that.

F.H.L. Do I understand that Jesus said, Come forth, because He Himself would die, and that Lazarus was a sample of one of those gathered?

J.T. It brings out the truth of His Person. He said, "I am the resurrection and the life". That is a truth that stands out in John. Who He is is stressed. It is the Person Himself, as He says, "Jesus answered

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and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up", John 2:19. So that was the sign. His own death and resurrection was the greatest sign of all.

D.P. Would Caiaphas understand this remark he was making as to the Lord?

J.T. I do not think so. He did not understand fully what he was saying, but the Spirit of God knew. And that is the point; what God can do, even in men that do not understand. God may use a clergyman although he may not be converted. We must respect the word no matter through whom it comes.

D.P. He said that the Lord was going to die for that nation; and not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God. First, he said that the Lord should die; and again, that He should gather. Could he understand that?

J.T. He did not need to. It is a question of what God says and what we can follow now.

J.A.P. Is the term 'children of God' confined to Israel, or is it more extensive?

J.T. I think it is the full christian term that is in mind here. We find it in chapter 1 in its full christian significance. It is a christian term properly.

A.N.W. Will you say a little about the limited way in which, we must confess, this prophecy has been and is being fulfilled today -- in view of the broken condition of christendom?

J.T. That is a solemn thing, when you think of the smallness of the work in America; and generally, of course, but especially in this hemisphere; but yet the Lord says in chapter 10, "When he has put forth all his own" (verse 4). That is John's way. You do not miss anyone. The divine way is to embrace them all, and so here -- the children of God; none are left out; the children of God are scattered

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abroad, but the divine thought is that all should be gathered.

A.R. You mean all the saints?

J.T. Yes.

S.M. Would verse 16 fit in? "And I have other sheep which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd". I thought of the one flock.

J.T. So that the divine thought embraces every sheep, and none shall be lost. All is in the Father's hand and the Son's hand.

A.B.P. Would the great completion of this be in the rapture?

J.T. I would say that. Some might say that the resurrection in Thessalonians is limited to those who form the assembly, but I think it would be better to say "the dead in Christ" and not limit them. "Those that have practised good" are viewed as coming forth first, John 5:29.

J.A.P. Does this give force to our communications in the assembly? We address letters, 'To those gathered to the name of the Lord Jesus'. Is that the great gathering point?

J.T. Well, it is; of course that would be a more limited word than what we are dealing with here; that is, you are limiting it by gathering -- gathering to the name of the Lord Jesus -- which is an allusion to Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". John is wider than Matthew in this sense. He is dealing with things in the abstract, and therefore he includes all the children of God, as he does all the sheep, and that is the way it ought to be. Matthew is the administrative gospel, and therefore it is a question of what marks persons at any given time.

C.A.M. The mention of the children of God in

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John 1 is very comprehensive -- all that believe on His name.

J.T. Yes; that helps as to what we are saying. John is generally abstract.

J.T.Jr. Is there the continuation of that in John 12:32, "I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me". Would the "all" embrace the family?

J.T. I think so; it is the complete thought again.

J.T.Jr. We must come that way, through the death of Christ.

A.N.W. And so, however few the number might be of such as are described here, they are clear of the sectarian idea.

A.B.P. Would the house being filled with the odour of the ointment suggest that the whole family is to benefit by it in some way?

J.T. I suppose the house would mean that. It is another guiding word in John. The son abides in the house for ever; John 8:35. That is a wide thought; a permanent thought; and the Father's house goes with it.

W.R. Would you say that in chapter 11, love is operating from the divine side and when you come to chapter 12 love has now a sphere where it can be resident as in the family.

J.T. Just so; we are in a family position in chapter 12. We have again to come back to the figurative thought, because it is the family in Bethany that is in mind, used as figurative of the whole, and we have therefore to deal with the facts given, first of all, as to what is in the Lord's mind. It is the idea of time, taking place six days before the passover; and then with whom -- that the dead man was there. I suppose the best reading of verse 1 would leave out the word 'man'. It is "... where was the dead Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead".

C.F.E. Is the passover suggested here in preparation

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for the Supper? We have the passover first and then the Supper.

J.T. I do not think the passover means much in John, and the Lord's supper is never mentioned. The passover is just a Jewish feast brought in here incidentally, but it is a religious thing. It has no meaning spiritually in its setting here, only that historically it alludes to certain things that would happen that affect Jesus. It would not be any more than Easter. We speak of Easter as affording opportunity for meetings in certain places, but religiously it is nothing to us.

C.N. There are other similar things, in verses 12 and 20; the crowd that sings Hosanna, and then the Greeks.

J.T. In the history of the testimony there are many things that seem incidental, but they fill out the spiritual position. The Lord knew well what was happening, and what was to be done, too.

J.T.Jr. Is the local position in mind? Would it be in mind in every meeting that we have to help us in localities? We come to the Lord's supper on the first day of the week, and it is a question of the position and what is there.

J.T. Yes, and then what may be filled out, as we have this meeting for this week. We have had it in our minds since the first day of the week, and it is well that we do have it in our minds. It is well that it should be announced. All the things that happen may not be wholly spiritual, but some are and we must see that each gets into its place and does not lose its value.

This matter of the Lord riding into Jerusalem, of course, is a great incident, but we just have to view it as it is in John. Verse 12 says, "On the morrow a great crowd who came to the feast, having heard that Jesus is coming into Jerusalem, took branches of palms and went out to meet him, and cried, Hosanna,

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blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord, the King of Israel. And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat upon it". What are we going to make of all this? The Lord knew what use to make of this ass. He found him, which is peculiar to John. The prophecy required that he should be there. "Jesus, having found a young ass, sat upon it; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. Now his disciples knew not these things at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things to him. The crowd therefore that was with him bore witness because he had called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from among the dead. Therefore also the crowd met him because they had heard that he had done this sign". As we read this, if we are spiritual, we understand that we are being brought into this great scene; one incident after another. What can we make of these incidents? Are they not rich? Are they not glorious? They are!

J.T.Jr. Is the thought carried forward from the six vessels of which the Lord says, "Fill the water-vessels with water"? Is your idea that things are filled out so as to yield for God?

J.T. Yes.

A.I. Are there three outstanding persons in relation to the Lord in chapter 12: Lazarus, Martha and Mary?

J.T. Just so. There they made Him a supper. Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those at table with Him. Mary filled the house with fragrant odour -- the fragrance of the pure nard which she had kept for the Lord's burial.

A.B.P. Is Jesus being glorified brought in as a further thought? When He was glorified then the disciples knew (verse 16). Is that the culmination, in

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the glory, of what was manifested morally here? Is it carried right through to the sphere of glory?

J.T. It refers to His place at the right hand of God, in consequence of which the Spirit was given; chapter 7: 39. The Holy Spirit has made plain all that the Lord said and did.

C.N. The glory of Christ is remarkably testified to in this chapter.

J.T. The whole section, from the beginning of chapter 11 to the end of chapter 12, is full of it. Hence the suitability of the reference to Isaiah, chapters 6 and 53. "These things said Esaias because he saw his glory and spoke of him" (verse 41). The first is His official glory and the second His moral glory. Thus the importance of verse 16 already quoted: "but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of him".

G.V.D. They remembered them so well that in choosing Matthias they said, "It is necessary, therefore, that of the men who have assembled with us all the time in which the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which he was taken up from us, one of these should be a witness with us of his resurrection", Acts 1:21, 22. I mean that this and all the other incidents in connection with the Lord's life were brought forward and remembered.

J.T.Jr. The youth is here in the young ass -- the element that is needed to carry things in the sense of burden. The King is carried.

J.T. It is very beautiful. The prophecy goes through, and in such an instrumentality as a young ass. The Lord found him, as we have noted. The ass was suitable; not anyone.

C.F.E. We have in the other gospels that the ass was tied, and the disciples were to loose him. What is the difference?

J.T. The difference is as to levitical service under

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the Lord's guidance and help, and the Lord doing things Himself. John contemplates the Lord doing things Himself.

A.I. Would the kingly dignity of the Lord Jesus be carried forward by this ass?

J.T. Yes. It is beautiful how He is served in this way. The other evangelists have more to say about the branches. The Lord's selection of the ass is enough. You can trust to His selection.

R.D.G. As emphasising the necessity of the presence of the Holy Spirit to prove the glory of the Lord Jesus here, would it be fitting to refer to Stephen, who, "being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, ... saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:55?

J.T. Quite so. He came in as an exceptional provision.

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THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (20)

John 12:20 - 50; John 14:18, 19

J.T. The place chapter 12 has in relation to our subject was scarcely touched upon at our last reading, but really it involves finality as to our subject, and indeed as to the whole testimony as to life in John's gospel. It finishes with the commandment of the Father, which is "life eternal", and it begins with the well-known scene at Bethany in which life is seen in a family setting. The chapters immediately preceding treat of the family in relation to our subject, but this chapter furnishes us with an example of life seen according to what is taught in the preceding chapters. It is seen, not simply as a matter of energy, but in persons related to each other in a family setting; that is, Lazarus, and Martha and Mary. They are seen in the beautification which divine love affords. It seems, therefore, that we should look more fully at the beautiful picture at Bethany in relation to life; and then how Lazarus is carried through illustratively as risen; and then the Greeks coming up and furnishing an opportunity for the Lord to speak of life; not only out of death as seen in Lazarus, but life out of death as seen in Himself; not simply one brought back into life in conditions of flesh and blood, as Lazarus was, but brought from the dead in a wholly new condition; and the subsequent solemn consummation of the whole matter in the citation from Isaiah, showing that God had finished His testimony to the Jews; the matter was settled between Him and them. The final remarks put them under judgment, for the Lord says, "and if any one hear my words and do not keep them, I judge him not, for I am not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world. He that

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rejects me and does not receive my words, has him who judges him: the word which I have spoken, that shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father, who sent me has himself given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak; and I know that his commandment is life eternal. What therefore I speak, as the Father has said to me, so I speak" (verses 47 - 50). The verses which were read from chapter 14 will serve to enlarge upon the life that the Lord speaks of in chapter 12 as active in Himself; the same life being active in them; "Because I live ye also shall live" (verse 19).

C.A.M. Say another word about the Father's commandment. You said that was the final thought?

J.T. It shows, I think, that the idea of eternal life represents His will. The Lord says, "And I know that his commandment is life eternal". It is the gracious sovereign will of God that is stressed -- that this great blessing should come into being and stand.

A.N.W. Is that the setting in Psalm 133, "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore"?

J.T. I think it is the same thought only it is fuller here, of course. The Father is brought into it, suggesting that the whole thought of the will of the Father is in this great blessing.

C.A.M. The epistle to Titus speaks of what "God, who cannot lie, promised before the ages of time", chapter 1: 2. Would the thought of the Father go back to His sovereign love before time?

J.T. Yes. We might be left with the thought that there is nothing more. It is stressed in that way that His commandment is eternal life -- not one of His commandments, or the chief commandment, but His commandment, as if the whole feature of life as blessing was conveyed.

W.W.M. Would the suggestion of the family in

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the early part of the chapter, and the life that is seen there, bring to our thoughts what the apostle said, "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named", Ephesians 3:14, 15?

J.T. Yes. I do not say that this chapter is the summation of all the thoughts of God in this gospel as to life, but generally it is. Then the idea of the family in the early part is very suggestive. We have already dwelt upon it somewhat, but not in an illustrative way as seen in this beautiful picture at Bethany. You can see it is designed. Jesus came there, we are told. We have the historical setting -- "Jesus therefore, six days before the passover, came to Bethany, where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead. There, therefore, they made him a supper, and Martha served, but Lazarus was one of those at table with him. Mary therefore, having taken a pound of ointment of pure nard of great price, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair, and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment" (verses 1 - 3). The recurrence of the word 'therefore' is striking, as if it were all sequence. It was a design and now we have the fulfilment of it. First we have "Jesus therefore"; and then "there therefore they made him a supper"; and then, "Mary therefore, having taken a pound of ointment ..." And there is another "therefore" in verse 4, "One of his disciples, therefore, Judas son of Simon, Iscariote ...". This was the enemy's work, intended to spoil the scene, but it brought out the quality that was there -- in Mary.

Ques. Is that what you had in your mind when you said these three persons, Lazarus. Mary and Martha, were set there as ornaments?

J.T. Yes, that is the position. They are also seen in chapter 11, but not in this ornamental way; they are seen as loved in chapter 11; but here they are,

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so to speak, set as precious stones. It is the designed position to bring out what is taught in this gospel as to life; that its beauty, as divinely set, might be seen. And, of course, it is intended by extension for the assembly that we might see life illustratively in the saints. The earthly side of the position is in view in this chapter.

A.R. In verse 7, Jesus said, "Suffer her to have kept this for the day of my preparation for burial".

J.T. Yes; as we have noted. Mary's quality must be brought out, and her intelligent affection and devotedness must be vindicated.

C.F.E. Service also is involved in this chapter, would you say?

J.T. Yes; Martha is seen in that position.

W.R. Do you see the Lord depicted here as Head of the family?

J.T. That side is hardly seen: the Supper was made for Him, not by Him. The effect of life is seen in them. It is to show what life is. The design is that there are persons there, the fruit of His work, and they are there in view of His being present -- in view of His coming -- He had been there before but this occasion is unique. It shows what He had effected in Bethany.

A.A.T. How does a sister serve in a spiritual sense in the assembly? Martha served here.

J.T. You have in mind perhaps that a sister should not speak in the assembly; but speaking is not all -- keeping quiet is much. It enters into this scene peculiarly because Lazarus is not said to speak; still he functions. None of the sisters speak on this occasion, but Martha served and Mary anointed the Lord and wiped His feet with her hair -- a great service. It is a question of whether our faculties are active and whether they are capable of taking part in a living but silent sense as sitting together.

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D.P. What are the distinctive features of life in each of these ornaments?

J.T. The first is Lazarus: "... where was the dead man Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from among the dead"; and then it is said that he was one of those at table with Him. I suppose he would represent the leading thought as the man, the only man in the family. The leading thought would be dignity in life. Full scope must be made for life inasmuch as it is intended to be a living scene.

G.A.L. Why are there no children in Bethany?

J.T. There were no children in the ark; it is to bring out maturity in what God has in His mind. He has not in His mind an infantile condition, but full growth; that is, men.

A.B.P. Would Lazarus function in every part; wholly alive? Much is made of the senses in John's gospel, as though life involves that all our spiritual sensibilities are functioning.

J.P. I think the full thought of manhood, that is, in type and principle, would be seen there, although we are not told that he spoke. I think the idea is that life without effort was discerned in him.

A.R. Verse 17 says, "The crowd therefore that was with him bore witness because he had called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from among the dead". They discerned what He had effected in Lazarus, did they not?

J.T. Quite so. It says earlier, "But the chief priests took counsel that they might kill Lazarus also, because many of the Jews went away on his account and believed on Jesus" (verses 10, 11).

J.T.Jr. Lazarus had been through a wonderful experience. Would the results of the experience be seen in him?

J.T. I think so; I think the idea would be that he was a subject of life: life-giving power, typically. "... The last Adam a quickening spirit", we are told.

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Well, now, the Lord had said, "Lazarus, come forth". That was to call attention -- the Lord intended to set life in motion in Lazarus. And we are told that the dead came forth bound feet and hands with graveclothes. And then Jesus says, "Loose him and let him go" (verse 44). That is, give him liberty; set him free. It is now a matter of what Lazarus will do, and the facts here show what he did, that he was not talkative; he made no effort at all to call attention to himself, but still people are noticing him. It is life without effort, which it ought to be. In eternity, I suppose, we shall make no effort.

C.A.M. Fruit-bearing is without effort, is it not?

J.T. Just so. "Observe with attention the lilies of the field, how they grow: they toil not, neither do they spin; but I say unto you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed as one of these", Matthew 6:28, 29.

A.N.W. That is plainly seen in Mary's part, for the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

C.N. The whole movement connected with Lazarus is called a sign: I was thinking of the glory you referred to as seen in the family at Bethany.

J.T. The word 'sign', not 'miracle', is used in John. The word 'miracle' is used in the synoptic gospels. We have often noted that the beginning of signs was in chapter 2. "This beginning of signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory" (verse 11). There was no great activity in that. It was just that the vessels were filled and then there was the drawing out, and the water was turned into wine. The idea in this section is that life is signified. It is set out by a sign. Other signs have other meanings. There is a difference between signs and miracles. A sign is something that signifies something else.

F.H.L. Would you say Lazarus had a part in it in that they made Him a supper?

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J.T. I think the three covered the whole position. It is a family. There were others there, apparently the disciples were present; but this occasion is to bring out the persons that are named as at the Supper.

A.R. How do you arrive at this life experimentally?

J.T. It is a question of life, as we were saying. We are subjects of life. The last Adam is a quickening spirit. That is what is said of Him. There is much else said as to life, of course, but that is, you might say, the supreme thought in Christ in regard of life, that He is a life-giving spirit; not a life-giving Man, notice, and yet, of course, He is a Man. It is a most remarkable thing that a Person, a Man, is called a spirit. I do not think we get it elsewhere.

J.P. Does God begin to work in death in that way in view of life?

J.T. That is clear enough. What transpires in this section is designated as for the glory of God. The sickness of Lazarus was not unto death but for the glory of God, that the Son of God should be glorified thereby. So it is a question of God, and God's Son. The Father and the Son are involved in this section. The Father quickens and the Son quickens, but the Person seen quickening in this section is the Son. We have the details of the action, and, of course, it is a figure of every action of the kind; that we are all the subjects of His power in the sense of life-giving. It is not simply that He calls us into life, but He gives life, and He raises us as spiritual; we are raised in spiritual bodies. It is in this connection that the Lord is said to be a quickening spirit; 1 Corinthians 15:45.

D.P. Andrew and Philip would be tested as to whether they were in the good of the family life at Bethany. When the subject of life came up, they were challenged by the Greeks, the Greeks having their own idea of life.

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J.T. I would say that they were not in the understanding of the life that is set out at Bethany. They were occupied with Greek life. Probably they had in their minds that it was an important thing that the Greeks should come up; whereas the Lord made nothing of that at all. He takes occasion by what they say to bring out the new order of life in which He was to come up out of the grave Himself.

A.R. "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal" (verse 25). Why is the idea of hating our life brought in?

J.T. That is to bring out how the life that is in mind is to work out in ourselves, and it becomes very challenging because, "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal". They are very challenging words, and they enter into what was in the mind of Andrew and Philip when they brought up the question of the Greeks. They were making much of it, but in order to get out of the state of the Greeks, this word of the Lord has to be understood; that is, "He that loves his life shall lose it". Suppose you were a Greek, you might be a scholar or an orator or a soldier, and you would have no thought at all of hating your life. People brought up on that line do not hate their lives; they make much of their lives and therefore they lose them eternally. The Lord says, "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal". The 'it', therefore, has to be understood; it is abstract. Practically it is life given of God, which we lay hold of by faith. It is life in a practical sense down here which the true believer has which abides and thus eventuates in eternal life. The unbeliever's life, which he loves, is made up of things down here and is lost at the end.

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A.R. Why did the Lord say, "... shall keep it to life eternal" -- is it an objective?

J.T. Well, it is, meaning that what you keep is your life as before God. It does not slip away from you; it is abiding. It is life in the wilderness, merging into eternal life. Paul says, "In that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God", Galatians 2:20.

A.N.W. The approach of the Greeks follows upon the word that the world had gone after Jesus. There is the suggestion of something popular, which would suit those who love their lives; but "the grain of wheat" would not bear fruit for this world. Besides, it would abide alone except it fell into the ground and died.

J.T. Quite so; that is the next thing to go on to the life that the Lord speaks of, which He would bring up out of death. So he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit". Then the verse we have just been commenting upon, which leads into eternal life, follows and shows how the believer works it out. Romans 6 and 7 would be involved. And then Romans 8 treats of the Spirit which corresponds with Galatians 2:20, already quoted.

J.T.Jr. Would you also bring Colossians into this? It speaks of philosophy and vain deceit; the rudiments of the world; that deceptive character of things that is apt to colour our lives, bringing in another life that is opposed to christian life.

J.T. Quite so; philosophy and vain deceit, of course, characterised the Greek world. The Greeks had a supreme place, you might say, on that line; those that go in for that, have to learn to hate it if they are going to come into life eternal. We have to work out the language of the gospels, and we have to go to the epistles to get the full designed teaching.

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The gospels are not exactly couched in the teaching of the epistles. They are intended to confirm and support generally the teaching of the apostles, but they go over to the coming dispensation.

J.A.P. "Jews indeed ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified", 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23. Would that be the answer of the apostle to Greek teaching?

J.T. Just so; that is language formally intended to overthrow it.

J.T.Jr. So it has been remarked that the teaching of the cross at Corinth put the incestuous man out, but circumcision among the Colossians kept the philosophical man out. Do we not need to keep this kind of man out?

J.T. Yes; the epistle to the Colossians was intended to keep out philosophy and vain deceit from the assembly at Colosse. So we have, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God", chapter 3: 1. If you brought a Greek classic to Lazarus after he was raised from the dead he would not be interested, any more than Mary Magdalene, as seen in chapter 20, would have been.

G.A.L. Is that the thought in the books being burned at Ephesus; there was no thought of retracting and using them again?

J.T. Yes, that is the idea; it shows the power of the preaching of the truth at Ephesus. The passage tells how the books were burned, and the value of them is given. But this life that the Lord had in mind is what He would help us to lay hold of, because life is our subject. "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone; but if it die, it bears much fruit".

A.B.P. What is the import of the word 'falling' -- "falling into the ground"?

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J.T. I think the allusion is to seed-growing. In the parable in Matthew 13 we have the same allusion -- "... fell along the way". The Lord used the figure of a person sowing seed, implying a quantity, but in John 12 it is one seed, not a lot of seed in a vessel; it is one seed, and it is used with the article, "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground ..." And notice it is not any cereal, any grain, as in 1 Corinthians 15; wheat is specified. But the teaching means that there really was only one which could be used with the article, for the one was the Lord Himself. Nor is there any idea of fertilisation. It is just the position in the ground.

A.B.P. Might the thought of falling involve that there was no action on its part but that it was rather the will of another? Would it suggest the Lord's full committal to the will of God?

J.T. Well, I suppose so, but it is going into the ground. The falling is just the ordinary figure alluding to the ordinary way of sowing; but then the article should be noted and it is not pictured as any one sowing it, it is just the simple fact that it falls into the ground; the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies. There is nothing more. If that does not happen, the Lord says, it abides alone, and He would be alone eternally, but it did fall into the ground, so the thing is very forcibly brought to our minds. 1 Corinthians 15 is more definite as to sowing -- "what thou sowest". But in John 12 no sowing agency is mentioned.

A.N.W. It would imply that it has life inherently? That is involved in it surely.

F.S.C. The bearing of much fruit is glorification?

J.T. Well, quite so; that is what it would be, but the thing is not enlarged upon. Really, to get to the doctrine we must go to the epistles, to Hebrews 2. It is well-known. We have often spoken of it, but it is well to see it now: "For both he that sanctifies

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and those sanctified are all of one" (verse 11). So that the seed here involves the Sanctifier, the Lord going down into death in order to bear much fruit, to bring us up. And the fruit are all "of one"; not exactly unity, but of one kind; He and they are of one kind. There is no disparity or inferiority contemplated at all. The figure in John 12 implies that the grain of wheat is the thing in mind; that is, the Person of Christ, and He enters into the ground and dies; there is the process of dying and then the bearing of fruit.

A.N.W. "Behold, I and the children which God has given me" (Hebrews 2:13), would be the fruit given Him of God.

J.T. Just so; the statement here, "He that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one", is to remind us that there is no disparity between the Lord and the saints. We belong to the assembly, and the assembly is of Christ; the same quality as Christ's humanity.

A.R. "Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Corinthians 15:48.

J.T. That is on the same line.

C.F.E. Is the figure used to imply life inherent in Him?

J.T. That is a fact, we are of Him. We come up as the much fruit from that one Grain. The more you dwell on it the more wonderful it is.

W.W.M. Is the figure of Eve taken out of Adam similar to this figure?

J.T. Pretty much; the assembly is of Christ, only this is an agricultural figure.

A.P.T. Is there any similarity in the tabernacle being of the same wood as the ark -- shittim wood?

J.T. There is a link there. The same wood is used; in fact, there is no other in the tabernacle, which is remarkable. It seems the durability and strength of the wood is implied.

J.T.Jr. Hebrews says, "... that through death he

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might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage", Hebrews 2:14, 15. Thus Christ sets us free, bringing us into this sphere of liberty.

J.T. That is what He has done, but He has done that through death. "... that through death he might annul him who has the might of death". That is another stroke of His power. There is no fruit in that; it is negative as dealing with the enemy. But there is much fruit in the Lord's falling into the ground as seen in John 12 -- fruit for eternity.

C.F.E. Why do you suppose the Lord uses the word 'if' in verse 26 -- "If any one serve me, let him follow me" -- as though it is left for the individual to follow Him? Are we brought into responsibility here?

J.T. "If any one serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant. And if any one serve me, him shall the Father honour". All that is bound up with the new humanity; that is, the servants are not to be Greeks, or Romans, or any natural men at all. The Lord must die first before there can be any servants according to God; that is what is in mind. The truth works out. If we are to serve, let us follow Him. In chapter 8, He says, "I am the light of the world; he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (verse 12). That is not the point here. The point here is "Let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant". It is a question of being where the Lord is. My position is determined by His. And then, "If any one serve me, him shall the Father honour". Honour is attached to our position.

G.V.D. Is the Bethany scene illustrative of this service?

J.T. Just so. How precious was Mary's service!

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The Lord says, "Suffer her to have kept this for the day of my preparation for burial". She seized the opportunity for devoted intelligent service. And how effective it was!

A.B.P. Reverting to verse 25, does eating the flesh and drinking the blood of the Son of man develop a constitution which enables one to hate his life in this world and to keep it unto life eternal?

J.T. That is right. In order to see this life going through we must apprehend the Lord falling into the ground, dying and bearing much fruit. The Father's commandment confirms the whole position; and the judicial side is worked out from Isaiah's two prophecies quoted in this chapter. The whole matter is settled -- the issue between God and the Jews. And life henceforth is to be apprehended in this gospel more in heavenly relations, the Lord being in resurrection and ascension. He says, "Because I live ye also shall live", chapter 14: 19; in that life we are bound up with Him.

A.B.P. Is the life that was displayed here by Christ, the glory that is referred to, which Esaias saw (verse 41)? Would the refusal of the manifestation of the glory from chapter 2 on, be the moral basis on which Israel was blinded and set aside?

J.T. I think that is the way the truth works out; this chapter is the final or crucial chapter; the issue between God and the Jews is finished. The testimony was perfect; Isaiah's prophecies are cited here and elsewhere in the same connection, especially in Acts 28. But here it is to show that the Jew is out of court now; the light had shone and they refused to bow. It is a finished matter. So that Esaias "said again" (verse 39). The first reference to Isaiah begins in verse 37: "But though he had done so many signs before them, they believed not on him, that the word of the prophet Esaias which he said might be fulfilled, Lord, who has believed our report? and to whom has the

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arm of the Lord been revealed?" (verses 37, 38). That is the first one; that is in chapter 53 of Isaiah. The second reference begins in verse 39: "On this account they could not believe, because Esaias said again, He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, that they may not see with their eyes, and understand with their heart and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias because he saw his glory and spoke of him" (verses 39 - 41). Chapter 6 of Isaiah is quoted here. The Jews come under judgment because they refused the testimony of glory, as you said.

C.A.M. So the Jews really did not see the Lord after He had entered into this heavenly life, did they?

J.T. No; the verse we read in chapter 14 says, "Yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me; because I live ye also shall live" (verse 19). So that the Jews are shut out. In chapter 14 we are on a new footing altogether; you might say an assembly footing, and we are bound up in the life of Christ: "Because I live ..." -- how precious it is, that our very existence depends on His living!

C.A.M. Thus the disciples shut the doors for fear of the Jews; John 20:19.

R.W.S. Who are represented in the believers in verse 42 of chapter 12?

J.T. "Although indeed from among the rulers also many believed on him, but on account of the Pharisees did not confess him, that they might not be put out of the synagogue: for they loved glory from men rather than glory from God". Well, the Spirit notices them as believing on Christ, without confessing Him, and as loving glory from men rather than glory from God. We cannot dismiss them as of no value. Scripture furnishes many examples of this class of believers; indeed we may say they are graded. "Although indeed" (verse 42), marks them off as different from the mass of those who did not believe.

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R.W.S. So in the presence of opposition inside, in Judas at Bethany; unbelief, as in verse 37; imitation or half-heartedness, in verse 42, the real life is there.

J.T. Yes. I think verse 42 is just left for us; they may be real or they may not be; we are to judge. But we must hold to what we have earlier; that is to say, "He that loves his life shall lose it, and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal". We cannot say these rulers are hating their lives in this world; they are afraid to confess Christ.

A.R. Would Nicodemus come into this?

J.T. He has more credentials than these men. What is said here is that "Although indeed from among the rulers also many believed on him, but on account of the Pharisees did not confess him". They are afraid to be put out of the synagogue. What are we to think of these men? I think the Spirit of God is putting that question to us. "Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of the Jews who have believed", says James to Paul; Acts 21:20. This led Paul to adopt legal principles -- to compromise. Hence we can see the influence that arises from indefinite conditions. I believe that is how the Spirit of God tests us in a passage like this.

W.R. Does Thomas show in chapter 20 that he has a Jewish mind?

J.T. He does, but he is a true man and this is what we should look for in such mixed conditions. He comes wholly to the truth -- "My Lord and my God", he says.

J.A.P. Abigail says, "If a man is risen up to pursue thee and to seek thy life, the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of the living with Jehovah thy God", 1 Samuel 25:29. She committed herself when Nabal was bitterly opposed to David.

J.T. Quite so; she spoke of "the bundle of the

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living". I should not be certain about these people of which we have been speaking belonging to the bundle of the living, and that is what confronts us in our efforts to get converts or additions. We want to be sure that they are real believers; not simply that they make a certain confession.

A.P. These people did not confess (verse 42).

J.T. That is true, but it is said of them that they believed on Him; that is, they would listen to the preaching and they would privately take the ground of believers. Simon, Acts 8, took this ground and even Philip did not discern him.

A.N.W. Romans 10 would not allow that as sufficient for salvation.

J.T. No, there must be confession with the mouth.