Pages 1 - 227 -- "Notes of Readings in New York", 1943 (Volume 160).
2 Timothy 1:1, 2, 8 - 14; Ezekiel 37:1 - 14
J.T. Life, which is a great and very wide thought, has been selected as the subject for these readings. I think we have observed that the truth opens up to us more freely as we treat it in its immediate application to ourselves to meet current need. So it was thought that we might begin with life as spoken of in the Scriptures in relation to the last days, which are called "difficult times" in 2 Timothy 3:1. The epistle was written to a young man, taken up in the service and qualified for it, and points to the continuance of the testimony. In ministering, Timothy was to have in mind at least two generations after himself, chapter 2: 2. Paul enjoined him to pass on to others what he had heard from him.
In view of what we have been engaged with during the past series of meetings, that is, "Wells and Springs", it is thought that the subject of life should be looked at; although it has been included, in some measure, in the previous inquiry, it is thought that the latter needs supplementing by a review of life in a more general way. The bearing of prophetic ministry in relation to it is also in mind; that is why the passage in Ezekiel was proposed. It contemplates life in a complete result. In that passage we have persons constituted from a condition of dry bones into full manhood. "The whole house of Israel" is seen there -- "an exceeding great army". Clearly, conflict is in mind.
A.A.T. Is the promise of life for the present or future?
J.T. It is God anticipating need that would arise. A promise is usually to meet a need. This promise was made long before, but it becomes effective as the need exists.
A.N.W. Does it differ from the promise of eternal life which is mentioned in Titus?
J.T. I think it is the same thing. It is called "life" here in both passages read. In verse 1, it is the "promise of life", and in verse 10, "life and incorruptibility". Life is more operative. Eternal life is more a fixed thought and is over against death. Eternal life covers eternity, but what is needed now is life. Timothy, however, is told in the first letter to him to "lay hold of eternal life" (1 Timothy 6:12), and believers who are rich are enjoined to "lay hold of what is really life" (verse 19). The latter is in contrast to what may be acquired of this world's things by money.
A.P.T. Is life, then, an active thought?
J.T. It is quite obviously so. In the whole universe, life in various forms is active all the time; and this is also true of spiritual life. But eternal life is a fixed thought with a very wide bearing. It is connected with the earth where death is. The word 'eternal' is in contrast to what is temporal.
A.B.P. The greatest movements of the physical universe -- the rotations of the heavenly bodies -- do not represent life, do they?
J.T. Only in a typical sense. Of course, God lives and angels live; but eternal life is for men only. In Genesis 1, life is seen on the third day: vegetable life. The heavenly bodies are in view of that, to promote it. Life for men is connected with the earth. So, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4), would contemplate what was down here, not what was in heaven. Men were on earth. The life that was in Christ was for men only.
'The light of men was the life', see note in New Translation.
J.S. Do you view the world-to-come as an expression of life, nationally?
J.T. It will be general, but centred in Israel. It is commanded in Zion. "There hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore", Psalm 133:3.
E.McK. Is active life implied in the Lord's remark, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", John 5:17?
J.T. Yes; He also says, "I am the light of the world; he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12. That was active life.
J.S. Does the fourth day of Genesis 1 set before us the ordered condition of the heavenly bodies to sustain life?
J.T. Yes; they also regulate. They are for times and seasons. So, in a later day it is said, "Henceforth, all the days of the earth, seed time and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, shall not cease", Genesis 8:22. Heaven regulates; and it affords light, heat and rain which are essential to life on the earth.
What is in mind now is that we might see the force of the promise of life, especially its application at the present time. Certainly it is needed; that is, what is operative here below by the Spirit. "The Spirit life", Romans 8:10. Life in this sense includes our meetings and spiritual intercourse generally with one another and what we enjoy and acquire in our individual relations with God. Christ enters into all this, involving what He is to us officially. "Christ ... who is our life". To the new man, "Christ is everything, and in all", Colossians 3:11. His priestly services endear Him to us and He thus becomes more and more the life of each of us. This is very precious. For young people the idea of the promise of life is
most assuring. It implies that God has considered for us beforehand and provided for us. The Spirit given involves the promise of life. The Father promised the Spirit, and being exalted to heaven. Christ received Him from the Father and gave Him to the saints. The Spirit, as come, effected living conditions for the saints.
A.N.W. It has been said that a promise is on a lower level than purpose.
J.T. Yes; what is promised, as we have said, is to meet a need or desire in us, but purpose is what God effects for Himself. But it is very touching that God considers for us, the promise of life being the outcome of this. It is a very great blessing and absolutely essential to us now and for ever.
R.W.S. Is that seen in God's word as to the woman's seed? Is that a prophetic promise?
J.T. Yes. God said to the serpent that the woman's seed would crush his head. There would be a need in humanity for that. Clearly Adam named the woman Eve in the light of this pronouncement. Eve was the mother of all living, hence the meaning of the name her husband gave her. Eve is a different word from woman in chapter 2. Eve, meaning life, is the suggestion of a promise, because sin had come in, and death had been pronounced as a judgment on man. Doubtless God was working with Adam and hence, in some sense, he was in the light of life notwithstanding the judgment of death upon him.
F.S.C. Is that where you get the idea that God made the promise before the need was there?
J.T. How He made the promise of life formally is a question, but He made it "before the ages of time". It is now "in Christ Jesus", 2 Timothy 1:1. It is a certainty now; it has taken form and is secured in Man.
A.A.T. Is that Man in resurrection?
J.T. Quite so; it is Christ as risen. It is of His life as risen and glorified that we partake.
W.F.K. In John 10, He says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly" (verse 10). Is the need met there?
J.T. Quite so; plenty of the life.
A.R. 2 Timothy treats of the day of departure from the truth; is this promise of life to meet that in the believer?
J.T. Yes; it is for ourselves now; the young people especially. It is a fixed matter. Adam could not see it in this way, but he certainly had light in his soul when he said, Eve. The idea of life came into his mind: the mother of all living. But now the thing is not only promised, but it has actually taken form. You can see it in Christ. It has taken definite form, and is available to us as a promise.
A.B.P. Is that what Peter had in mind when he spoke of the Originator of life; Acts 3? Mr. Darby's footnote there is helpful in relation to it: 'He began and finished the whole course'. He set it forth and completed it.
J.T. Yes. A man may originate a thing, but to complete the idea he must make it function. So the Lord Jesus originated life, being God, and He exemplified it. He says, "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12.
W.R. Is that what we have in the opening of the epistle of John? The life is carried forward in a substantial way.
J.T. Yes. "The eternal life"; the thing was there in a Man. Christ was it. Here it is for us just to get the thought of the promise; that God thought of us beforehand. It is very precious to be promised something by Him; and here it is not only in promise, but in fulfilment in Christ Jesus; and, as we have been saying, in laying hold of it. He becomes our life. In that way it is an operative thought, not a static
thought. In the millennium it will be available to enter into: but here, it is active. It is available to us, which involves that the Spirit is acting in us, and that Christ as Priest is also serving us. He is not only the Life but He is the Priest. He is the Head of the whole divine system, and looks after us in all relations so that we might be in the enjoyment of this life for He is it.
C.N. Does Romans 8 show how it operates? The apostle says, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death", Romans 8:2.
J.T. Just so; what I was saying about priesthood is worthy of note -- He is Priest "according to power of indissoluble life", Hebrews 7:16. He is our Priest. "For such a high priest became us", Hebrews 7:26. In exercising His Priesthood He brings us into the life. As we are near to Him He is it to us.
W.R. Is that why the Lord presents Himself alive in Luke 24? "It is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having", Luke 24:39.
J.T. Just so; He was the life there, it is life now in Him. This word 'promise' conveys a beautiful thought for young people; how God is thinking of us according to our needs. He says, I have provided for them all beforehand. What is stated here is "the promise of life, the life which is in Christ Jesus". Thus we see the position of it. It is said to be in Christ. And then, "... my beloved child": it is a young man that is in mind; a young man in special spiritual family relationship with the apostle. In the later passage, Paul alludes to himself as a sufferer. "Be not therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner; but suffer evil along with the glad tidings, according to the power of God; who has saved us, and has called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to
his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages of time, but has been made manifest now by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings" (verses 8 - 10). That is how life has come in.
J.T.Jr. The angel told the apostles to speak in the temple "all the words of this life": does that connect with the present position of Christ in heaven and also with what He was here?
J.T. It refers to the life of Christ as expressed here in testimony, which involves what we are speaking of -- "which thing is true in him and in you", 1 John 2:8. It was in Him as here in the flesh "the old commandment", the word which they heard (verse 7). Believers are brought into it through redemption, so that "the new commandment" (verse 8), is the life now true in Him and in us. "The words of this life" convey what the life is; they make it intelligible. John also writes "concerning the word of life": "that which was from the beginning ... which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us", 1 John 1:1, 2. It was a known thing.
A.MacN. Is the annulling of death by the Lord Jesus necessary to the bringing to light of this life?
J.T. Quite so; that is what is stated. It is a complete triumph. It goes beyond what we enjoy now; it involves incorruptibility; it involves resurrection.
A.R. Melchisedec is said to have "neither beginning of days nor end of life". I suppose that character of Christ's priesthood will affect the valley of dry bones of Ezekiel 37.
J.T. Yes; in Hebrews 7 Christ is said to be Priest "according to power of indissoluble life". You are brought to the realisation of Him as life through His priestly service. He becomes indispensable to you. Thus your attitude is, that as relieved by Him from
some pressure, you do not go on your way, somewhat leaving Him out of your circumstances; on the contrary. He is endeared to you, your life; Colossians 3:4.
C.A.M. Would you say that life is appreciated only as the need of it is felt, and hence God allowed all the history that preceded the presentation of it in Christ?
J.T. Yes; the Old Testament treats of the time of divine demand, and those who had faith felt the pressure and looked forward to the fulfilment of the promises, including life. They had to live on the promises, and that meant that they had to wait. Jacob said, "I wait for thy salvation, O Jehovah", Genesis 49:18. It is not so with us; life has come and is available in Christ. That makes the great difference between Old Testament believers and those of today. It was a question of waiting from Adam until Christ. The promises were there but their fulfilment had to be waited for. The saints lived by faith, seeing what was promised afar off and embracing it. But death was not annulled and hence the Spirit was not given. In fact the general position was that death was not only present and dominant, but it was accentuated by the law, as Romans 7 shows.
C.A.M. So God allowed the pressure of death and other things to come so that believers might appreciate the magnificence of what He has brought in.
J.T. Yes. The waiting and the instruction in the waiting, made the things promised more and more to be desired. That was the Old Testament history of believers. It was a time of demand on God's part to bring out what man was; that is, that he was sinful. Faith saw this and understood that God alone could meet the situation and waited for Him. He supported this faith, making promises, particularly life, at the same time affording light, especially in the types, as to the coming Redeemer and the redemption He would accomplish. Christ said, "I am come that
they might have life, and might have it abundantly", John 10:10. So that He was there to make the promise good.
C.A.M. Adam must have had some sense of what life was when he named Eve.
J.T. He did not name her at all in that connection first. He named her by a derivative from his own name; "Ish" does not mean life. "Ish" and "Ishshah" designate two persons suited to each other and having mutual affections. Adam naming his wife "Eve", which means life, after sin came in, indicates that Jehovah's pronouncement to the serpent regarding the woman's seed afforded him light as to life.
J.S. Does John give us a full-size picture of life as set forth in a man?
J.T. Quite so. It was not in Eve nor in anybody before. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4. It is the past tense: Christ's history on earth is in mind. What we are considering now is the promise of life, whether we are enjoying it, laying hold of it as fixed in Christ. So apprehended, it is stabilising. In the gospel, life is presented to us as available in Him. It is, therefore, a question of taking up the promise.
A.MacN. "He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him", John 3:36. Hence, would you say, faith would enter into life to the enjoyment of it?
J.T. Yes; it is apprehended and enjoyed through faith, by the Spirit. We shall have that more fully later, God willing. But what the Lord would say to us now is concerning this matter of promise to be appropriated in a world of death: so much murder, so much death! Every moment numbers of people die from the violence of hatred. God is stressing
death. There is a voice in it, God saying, I have provided the means of overcoming in the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, and the Lord Himself is saying to every suffering saint, "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give to thee the crown of life", Revelation 2:10.
J.T.Jr. Is it suggested in a way in Jacob's relations with Joseph? Joseph suggested what was coming in with Christ, and Jacob valued that; his life was in it.
J.T. That is the way to get at it, really -- to get some concrete idea of the promise. As Joseph was born, Jacob proposed to return to the place of promise. And there "he made him a vest of many colours", which would allude to what was in his mind, which he could hardly define; the vest of many colours typically involved Christ's deity. Joseph was a type of Christ as the 'Sustainer of life', see note to Genesis 41:45 in the New Translation. Judah said the life of Jacob was bound up with the life of Benjamin, another type of Christ; Genesis 44:30. What we need to come into now, in the midst of death -- accentuated, in the extent and cruelty of it as employed by men, perhaps as never before -- is the great and blessed gift of life available to us in Christ. It is a certainty; it is there intelligibly and available to us. It is victory, for it implies that Christ has annulled death, so that it has no more power over the christian. The Lord says, "Be not afraid of those who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul; but fear rather him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell", Matthew 10:28. And so the promise to Smyrna is, "I will give to thee the crown of life ... . He that overcomes shall in no wise be injured of the second death", Revelation 2:10, 11. It is an immense thing to get hold of, that death is annulled. Satan is annulled, too. They are both active, but for faith they are both annulled; and our chapter is to show
how the promise of life can be laid hold of intelligently as available in Christ Jesus.
A.N.W. The apostle is saying that his apostleship is in relation to that very promise.
J.T. Quite so. "According to promise of life". He is on that line, and so is every true servant of the Lord on that line, trying to help the saints get into this, to lay hold of the promise; young people especially. In Hebrews 6 we have two things to sustain our hearts; God's promise and His oath. Here it is one thing; the promise of life.
T.E.H. Scripture says Sarah received strength in view of the promise. She had faith in her own soul, overcoming the barrenness that had existed in her.
J.T. She received strength "for the conception of seed ... since she counted him faithful who promised", Hebrews 11:11.
R.W.S. Faith enters into it, and the Holy Spirit helps us in laying hold of it.
J.T. Quite so; as we were saying, the life is available, and the Spirit is available to us for the appropriation of it. If one has not the Spirit, he cannot enjoy life. However much he may be interested in what we are saying, he cannot lay hold of it effectively. The Spirit is the power of life.
G.V.D. Is Simeon, as in Luke 2, an example of one who was laying hold of the promise? It was divinely communicated to him that he should not see death until he should see the Lord's Christ, and he came into the temple in the Spirit.
J.T. Yes. He says, "Now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace", Luke 2:29. To die by the word of God is a triumph of spiritual intelligence. Moses and Aaron may be regarded in this way; Simeon very definitely so: he says, "according to thy word ... for mine eyes have seen thy salvation". He referred to Jesus, the promised Salvation, a Babe in his arms.
A.R. "And brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings" -- does that mean that in the glad tidings incorruptibility and life are offered?
J.T. Yes. It raises the whole question of the gospel as it is preached now. Life in Christ should be stressed. Those who believe "reign in life by the one Jesus Christ", Romans 5:17. They have also "justification of life" (verse 18). God is using the preaching of the gospel among the brethren, however feeble, to promote life for deliverance and spiritual joy. The result of the gospel preached in Antioch of Pisidia was that the believers "were filled with joy and the Holy Spirit", Acts 13:52. In our chapter Paul goes on to say, "... to which I have been appointed a herald and apostle and teacher of the nations". This brings up the question as to what should be emphasised in the preaching now. In this epistle life is the more important feature.
A.R. Those who speak in prophetic meetings should have our chapter in Ezekiel in mind. Prophecy promotes life. Each preacher should be exercised as to what kind of gospel he should present at any stated service.
J.T. Life and incorruptibility is a great subject. There are various ways in which it may be presented, and Ezekiel 37 affords much light as to this. We ought to go on to that now, but there are some further thoughts in 2 Timothy which should help us in what is in mind. The apostle says, "For which cause also I suffer these things; but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep for that day the deposit I have entrusted to him. Have an outline of sound words, which words thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted", chapter 1: 12 - 14. These remarks of the apostle are in regard to those who are serving;
what he is stressing is this great matter of life that has come to light by the gospel. I am to "have an outline of sound words" in my preaching. Thus I shall be definite in my service.
A.P.T. "But to the others an odour from life unto life", 2 Corinthians 2:16. Is that what he is speaking about here as in the gospel?
J.T. Just so; the odours were in himself as he preached. Both odours would be involved in his remark elsewhere: "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. 1 Corinthians 2:1 - 7 shows how Paul selected the features of the truth he decided he would preach in any given place.
A.B.P. Life and incorruptibility in Lazarus, in John 12, would be the result of the operation of the Son of God? Do you think that our gospel preachings should be in relation to the Son of God, particularly?
J.T. That is what that section of John would teach us -- the movements of Christ in relation to the sickness and death of Lazarus. He had stayed away two days so that Lazarus might die. He came to Bethany, and Martha went out to meet Him, and the conversation that ensued led her to believe in the Lord as Son of God. He had said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life: he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live", John 11:25. That was the great truth that governed the whole position at Bethany. Then Martha left. She went and told Mary; then Mary comes to the Lord, and His deep feelings as to the power of death were expressed, His sympathy also with the bereaved ones. The movements and words of Christ in that scene are most instructive and touching. The great matter of life and incorruptibility entered into the scene. The Lord asked, Where have you laid him? He went
there and spoke to His Father, saying, "I knew that thou always hearest me; but on account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me". Then He cried, "Lazarus, come forth. And the dead came forth, bound feet and hands with graveclothes". And He said, "Loose him and let him go". Spiritual movement, characteristic of life, marks the scene.
J.S. Was it to get the eyes of Mary and Martha focused on Him?
J.T. Quite so; but it is beautiful to see the movements of life in a scene of death, especially when Lazarus is let go. All this links up with our chapter in Ezekiel. What is specially to be noted is the prophesying and the noise of rustling, bringing about external conditions of life. The bones came together, and the prophesying to the four winds, "Come ... O breath, and breathe upon these slain that they may live" caused the breath to come into them and they lived. It is a completed matter. Those made to live stood upon their feet, "an exceeding great army". A great divine thought is reached. It is that "these bones are the whole house of Israel". It is a complete position, answering to the purpose of God and the promise of life. I believe God will encourage us as to this, to be brought into conformity to His purpose in regard to life. He needs us in many connections, and we are to be ready and complete for the service and position for which He has purposed us. If it be translation, we are to be ready for it.
R.W.S. Does John give the organs of life inwardly; and Ezekiel, the external side?
J.T. That is what I understand. You have the internal side in John, for he has in mind what is inward; whereas Ezekiel has in mind the public position. Whatever is in God's mind for us, we are ready for it. If it be translation, we are ready for it. If it be continuance of the testimony, we are ready
for it, but the idea is that we are complete according to God's mind.
W.R. Paul says, "Always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body", 2 Corinthians 4:10.
J.T. "In our body"; the body is morally equal to what is put upon it. A perfect man is in mind. We are going to have bodies of glory, but it is a question of life in the sense of active power, and every member of Christ's body is to be actuated by the life that is in Christ Jesus.
C.A.M. Our translation corresponds to what will take place on earth when Israel is awakened.
J.T. Yes; and the nations, although in flesh and blood as we are, will go into eternal life. God intends our bodies as they are now to be brought into accord morally with what we are inwardly.
F.N.W. Is there development in John in that way, in Patmos, serving in difficult days, as we are? Has he developed in this feature of life so that he is ready to take part in tribulation or be caught up to heaven?
J.T. Yes, ready for whatever was required. He was the brother in tribulation, and the time came when he was caught up into heaven.
A.R. The first move here is perfect uniformity -- bone to bone. There are not going to be any freaks in the results of this power of resurrection; no abnormalcy.
J.T. That is the idea. Paul says, "To ... present every man perfect in Christ". I believe that is what the Spirit of God has in mind in this chapter; first to call attention to the state of the saints as they are today, so that Ezekiel is called upon and found ready for the service. He says, "Jehovah carried me out in the Spirit, and set me down in the midst of a valley; and it was full of bones. And he caused me to pass by them round about; and behold, there were very many in the open valley;
and behold, they were very dry". This is Ezekiel's own discovery. God is testing him as to whether he is equal for this service; that is what one is thinking of -- and many are coming into God's service -- whether we can name the conditions we have to deal with, as Ezekiel does.
Ques. Would you say we must have a complete apprehension of death in order that we might be able to bring in the light of life?
J.T. Yes; this marks Ezekiel here. Thus you must seek to know something of the persons you are serving; that is the point here. The prophet discerned the state of the bones.
W.F.K. Do you see the formation of the assembly in this chapter? It says, "the whole house of Israel".
J.T. That would be the idea as applied to ourselves. The great thought of God is to bring that in. If He is to continue His testimony those He would use should come into the light of all these things and be available to Him outwardly and inwardly. Chapter 36 is the inward side; this chapter is the outward side.
A.N.W. So that in preaching, you have the potentiality of the bones before you. You are not addressing merely bones, are you?
J.T. No. A figure of certain persons is before you; the whole house of Israel; but Ezekiel pronounces on the conditions of those he has to serve. The Lord told Paul in Corinth that He had much people there; but the apostle's exercise led him to minister only a certain line of truth to them. He determined not to know anything among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. He knew what he had to deal with, although the Lord evidently did not tell him of the state of the people. We must seek to understand all this, because if the testimony is to go on we must gauge what features of the truth are to
be ministered as the Lord gives open doors for service.
T.E.H. Is Israel viewed here apprehending the truth of resurrection so that they can bury in chapter 39?
J.T. Quite so; a terrible war is contemplated in chapters 38 and 39. We are in the midst of such a conflict now, but what about our implements of war? What about our training? What about our efficiency in the wars of the Lord? It is a great army here, notice; standing on their feet; fully developed persons. To effect this great result the first thing is that the servant is able to determine the condition of the material he has to deal with.
A.R. In the New Testament we have, "Thus the Son also quickens whom he will" (John 5:21); and in Ephesians it says, "... (we too being dead in offences), has quickened us with the Christ", chapter 2: 5. Is that the same thing that is going on here?
J.T. In principle it would be. In serving one would like to get a general outline of the state of those to be served. Ezekiel saw the bones were "very dry"; then Jehovah enquired, "Son of man, Shall these bones live?" (verse 3). He did not venture to answer that, but said, "Lord Jehovah, thou knowest". Then the Lord directs him to "Prophesy over these bones, and say unto them, Ye dry bones, hear the word of Jehovah. Thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live". Now, Jehovah is telling Ezekiel what to say. That is the next thing for the preacher. You determine the character of your congregation and then decide what you will present to it. Ezekiel says, "I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise". He was not told about that beforehand. What was the noise? He says, "Behold a rustling". If we understand the Spirit coming out from heaven, we understand noises that allude to the work of God.
The sound filled the house, Acts 2 states. The noise here is discerned; it is a question of the bones rustling; real evidence of something happening; not by the preaching but by God -- the mighty power of God. We may expect that as in His service. Then it is said, "And the bones came together, bone to its bone". That is most remarkable. Anatomy would teach us: that bone must go there, and this there. The human body is the most wonderful, you might say, of all organisms, and these bones find each its place. What intelligence in the very rudiments of the work of God that the great framework of a man must take place in this way! But it is the wisdom and power of God. Then the prophet says, "And I looked, and behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them". An observant servant discerns what is being effected in those he serves. You look at their faces. I do not think it is good to look much at the ceiling or walls of the building when you are preaching. You will not see spiritual results there! It is in living persons that you will see something to encourage you.
J.T.Jr. When you see them continuing "very dry", much exercise is caused in you!
J.T. It casts you more upon God when you see sleepiness in an audience. There is no bone going to bone when this exists. God works in relation to a framework; that is, man as in Christ. It is Christ that is preached, and the work of God in the hearer is to bring bone to bone in order to bring out a man like Christ. That is what we see here: "And behold, sinews and flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them". Ezekiel understands -- there must be breath, that is, the Spirit of life, in the body. Thus, "He said unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord
Jehovah: Come from the four winds". There was prophecy to the bones, but now he is to prophesy unto the wind. That has to be well considered. Your soul, as in the service, turns to God: the power of the Spirit is not only to act on the hearers, but also to come into them, because the Holy Spirit does seal people while they are listening. We see this in the house of Cornelius; Acts 10:44. And then, as we remarked earlier, the word is, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live". What is to be observed here is that while the gift of the Spirit is sovereignly from God, it is seen here as effected through prophecy. Thus the preaching and reception of the truth precede the baptism of the Spirit. The Spirit fell upon those who were listening to Peter in the house of Cornelius, but it is perfectly clear that they already had believed the gospel he preached. We must be careful about speaking of the Spirit objectively, but we have to understand Him in that sense and that He operates objectively as the Father and the Son. Here, "the breath came into them and they lived". It is said, "And I prophesied as he had commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army". As already said, that is a real result, a complete result of the testimony of God in prophecy.
A.B.P. Do you have a concrete example of that in the ministry of Philip in Samaria, that bone was brought to bone, but it was not until the apostles came down from Jerusalem that they received the Spirit? I wondered whether the formation in that way, bone to bone, as it were, was Philip's work, and the gift of the Spirit came in through the apostles, Peter and John.
J.T. That is what happened exactly. That shows the distinction that must be between the effect of light, of the gospel, and the Spirit of God received in
answer to prayer or given directly as in the case of Caesarea. Here we have, in type, the Spirit addressed "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live". The word is now not only dead, but slain.
W.R. Would you say that in the present crisis the younger brethren are being qualified for future service, made to stand up?
J.T. That is what I believe. God is certainly endowing man with ability to serve. The important thing is to have the complete idea in our minds, which God has in His mind. Our services are to reach that end.
Ques. Would you say the purpose of life as seen here in contrast with the promise of life as in the glad tidings would be in the prophetic word?
J.T. The prophetic word is that you have the mind of God and power in presenting it to men. The prophet has the mind of God and he seeks to effect that in what he is doing.
Ques. And the promise would be in the glad tidings?
J.T. Quite so; here it is said that those into whom the breath came "stood up upon their feet an exceeding great army". They do that. Jehovah is acting, the prophet is acting, and the Spirit is acting, and now the persons made to live are acting; they stood up upon their feet, and they are declared to be an exceeding great army. God has now, we may say, an army of spiritual men, good soldiers of Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:10, 17 - 21; Romans 6:1 - 4, 22, 23
J.T. It is thought we should look at Romans and see the place our subject has in that great epistle. What is in mind in these readings is to stress life viewed in its present activity. Eternal life is more positional and fixed. At the last meeting we considered life as seen in 2 Timothy, viewing it in relation to the present difficult days. It is thought we should consider it now in its normal setting, that is, in the epistles which develop the truth of christianity. Romans is the initial one -- the greatest in this sense. Although eternal life is also mentioned in these two chapters, life in an active sense comes under review in chapter 5. First, Christ's life by which we are saved, which is a remarkable phase of it; then that we reign in life; and finally how we are justified by life. Chapter 6 conveys the idea of life as in the wilderness, the newness of it as coming under the eyes of men; and then, verses 19 - 22, through righteousness and holiness in ourselves, we reach the end, eternal life. "Saved in the power of his life", involves Christ's present position in heaven. Having the Holy Spirit, we participate in His life.
A.R. Is it a new Head in chapter 5, in contrast to Adam?
J.T. Yes; in contrast to Adam, through whom death had come. That is, beginning with verse 12; but verse 10 comes into the section treating of our justification and salvation; so it is said, "Much rather therefore, having been now justified in the power of his blood, we shall be saved by him from wrath. For if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much rather, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in the power
of his life" (verses 9, 10). "Having been reconciled", therefore (verse 10), is an advanced thought in the great doctrine of the gospel: justified by blood, saved from wrath, reconciled, saved by Christ's life.
A.N.W. "Saved by him from wrath" -- would that be negative, and "saved in the power of his life", the positive side?
J.T. That is how the truth ought to be worked out. Wrath is revealed from heaven and men are exposed to it. So that as "justified in the power of his blood", we are saved from that; but salvation by His life is positive experience for the present time.
C.A.M. Is reconciliation here a great objective fact?
J.T. Yes; it is "through the death of his Son"; this part of the gospel is to be apprehended by faith. Then having been reconciled, we shall be saved in the power of His life. Salvation by blood from wrath and reconciliation are matters of faith -- once for all, we may say -- but salvation by life, as having been reconciled, is clearly something wrought out through the believer's participation in Christ's life. It is a practical reality, implying nearness to Him. It is to be taken home by each to himself. It is for us now to see how this matter of salvation by the life of Christ is to be worked out; first appropriated as light and then worked out. Clearly it cannot be worked out at a distance, for His life is in Himself. "Because I live ye also shall live", John 14:19. It is a truth to be apprehended in an objective sense, but to be experienced in our souls as worked out by the Spirit. It is future only in the sense that each one has to lay hold of the life of Christ and experience it as present salvation. Wrath, as seen in this epistle, is in its application future and salvation from it is by Christ through His blood, but salvation by the life of Christ is a present fact entering into our daily experience.
R.W.S. Does this go as far as quickening?
J.T. It involves quickening, but quickening is a direct divine act, and what we come into here is the active life of Christ now.
E.McK. Paul says, "... and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. Is that what is meant here?
J.T. It is, only in another connection -- shutting out law as a principle not governing christian life. The apostle says, "Who has loved me and given himself for me". He does not go so far as to say who loves me, but who has loved me. It is an historical matter, not necessarily active in his soul; whereas what we are speaking of involves nearness to Christ as participating in His life. Romans 5:10, as to Christ's life, reads, in the New Translation, with note; "in the power of his life"; not in the distance, as is sometimes involved in faith, but a present experience.
J.T.Jr. Would Joseph's position in Egypt illustrate the life of Christ in that way?
J.T. It would, in the sense of the name that Pharaoh gave him -- Zaphnath-paaneah means 'Saviour of the world', or 'Sustainer of life'. He is the preserver of the posterity of Israel, and it would be in a personal sense. When he made himself known to his brethren he said, "Come near to me, I pray you", Genesis 45:4. Their immediate contact with him, which in the antitype involves the Spirit, is stressed; and I think that is the point here. The Spirit has already been mentioned in chapter 5.
J.S. The man in Acts 3 was in the power of life -- walking, and leaping, and praising God.
J.T. Quite so; it was by faith; but also by Peter's hand: This implies the link of life. Peter says, "Look on us" (verse 4), and then he took hold of
him by the right hand; and later the man held Peter and John, which corresponds with what we are saying: contact with Christ.
A.R. Is being reconciled to God, in view of being saved in Christ's life, in order to be for God?
J.T. Reconciliation involves divine complacency, and precedes this thought of life: distance between us and divine Persons has been removed. Thus contact in a spiritual sense is open to us. If God has reconciled us, He has brought us into complacency with Himself; thus liberty to participate in Christ's life is ours. Chapter 6 is a question of walking in life, but chapter 5 is that we come under the power of Christ personally in the life that He lives. This has to be understood by us. Reconciliation is through His death. "Through" is instrumentality, throwing light on what has been said as to His life. It is a matter of faith, as justification is, but to be saved by Christ's life is further on.
A.B.P. Is there a connection with Acts 1"... to whom also he presented himself living" (verse 3)? I wondered whether that was in view of their being saved from the course of the world and being in power in testimony.
J.T. That is good. It is a very attractive position. He is presenting Himself. And then the Spirit says, "... being seen by them during forty days". So that He would be as living clearly and attractively in their minds; not simply because of what He had done, but what He was as seen living after He suffered. How powerful and delightful His life would be! And they were to live in that life! What could turn them away from it? He invited them to handle Him. He says, "Handle me and see", Luke 24:39. "During forty days" would mean that He was seen in various presentations so that He might become known in His risen condition and be appropriated. John had appropriated Him before He died; he was "in the
bosom of Jesus", involving receptiveness on the Lord's part.
The next point in our enquiry now is reigning in life. That is not only salvation but complete victory. "For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ" (verse 17). One is dominant in his circumstances; he is not overcome by any eventuality.
C.A.M. These truths would be learned by the apostle when he first bowed to the Lord. The greatness of His Person came livingly before Paul's soul at the outset. He was "to see the just one, and to hear a voice out of his mouth", Acts 22:14.
J.T. Joseph alluded to his mouth. "And behold, your eyes see, and the eyes of my brother Benjamin, that it is my mouth which speaks to you", Genesis 45:12. I suppose no one would enjoy the Song of Songs more than Paul. And the Lord breathed into the disciples, involving intimacy. These facts help us as to nearness to Christ; contact with Him. Canticles fits in here. "His mouth is most sweet: ..." The book has largely in mind the attractiveness of Christ; also how He draws near to us. The feminine speaker speaks of His embrace and support of her head. He supports us in our intelligence, and in our affections; so that He becomes essential to us. It is not simply the life of faith, but the life of a Person, known in this way; known through contact by the Spirit; and this is victory. Paul says, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power", Philippians 4:13. Also, "For me to live is Christ, and to die gain", Philippians 1:21. He speaks frequently about his relations with Christ, and we know how he reigned in life.
A.A.T. What does "the free gift of righteousness", (verse 17), involve?
J.T. It is God imputing righteousness to us, I would say, on the principle of faith. It is the liberality of it. "For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ" (verse 17). We are fortified in our minds by these wonderful remarks before we come to the idea of reigning in life. It is not simply life reigning as grace reigns, but that we reign in life. The believer reigns in life, which would allude to his superiority and dominance wherever he is, whatever his circumstances. He is never overpowered. "Death has been swallowed up in victory ... but thanks to God, who gives us the victory by our Lord Jesus Christ", 1 Corinthians 15:54, 57.
C.A.M. If you continue in that atmosphere you would be superior to everything.
J.T. Yes; especially those of us who have much to do, pressed as unable to keep up with our obligations, and the like. We are apt to be victims of circumstances. The Lord says, "Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place and rest a little", Mark 6:31. He would give us such a season to save us from being overcome by circumstances.
J.T.Jr. It implies a delivered person. We do not get deliverance in this chapter, but reigning in life is that the person is really in the good of deliverance.
J.T. Yes; really the first part of Romans, up to chapter 6, largely overlaps the second part, the first is what comes through Christ administratively. These wonderful things we are speaking of involve chapter 8, but chapter 8 is connected with the Spirit. Chapters 6 - 8 generally view the believer as in Christ.
A.B.P. Those who reign in righteousness are said to "receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness".
J.T. That is how you are furnished in view of
reigning in life. We are built up on the line of divine gift, meeting other conditions in our souls. Righteousness overcomes any conscience matter, for "If our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things", 1 John 3:20. That enters into this. God floods our hearts and consciences with Himself. He is greater than anything that can happen in relation to you, and that shuts out the devil and affords you time to settle matters. Certainly they are not to be settled in the presence of the devil! Faith, active in us, will shut him out. The Lord prayed for Peter that his faith should not fail; Luke 22:32.
J.S. Does reigning in life anticipate the millennium?
J.T. It is more applicable now. For we shall reign there with Christ. We shall be changed, with nothing to disturb us inwardly at all. That is part of the gospel, one of its crowning features; believers reigning in life in a scene of death.
W.C.R. Would the woman in John 4, as going back to the men of the city, be reigning in life?
J.T. In principle, she would. She was full of Christ; "Come, see a man" -- she was full of Him herself and would have them full of Him. She was superior to any natural influences that might have been there.
R.W.S. Is this victory in life over against death? Or is the latter eternal life?
J.T. It is active life we have in mind. As already said, eternal life, as usually presented, is more fixed. Although John says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him, the statement does not conflict with what we are saying -- indeed it rather confirms it, for the positive would be that eternal life as in the believer is there in an abiding way -- that is, as laid hold of and entered into as in Christ. "God has
given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son", 1 John 5:11.
A.N.W. "By the one Jesus Christ"; what is the force of "by" there?
J.T. It is instrumental. You recognise it is through Him you are living. It is active. We see how the Lord affected the disciples during the forty days before He ascended. The two that went to Emmaus represented a drift toward the world. How were they to be kept? They must be affected by the principles of life by Him in whom alone they were. Even the great presentation of the truth by Himself on the way was not enough to divert them. It was Himself. His personal manner. "Was not our heart burning in us as he spoke to us on the way, and as he opened the scriptures to us?"
R.W.S. I would like to get clear as to the difference between active life and what is fixed.
J.T. Eternal life is presented as objective: in this chapter grace is presented as reigning through righteousness to eternal life. That is an objective idea. Chapter 6 has this objective thought also -- "the end eternal life ... the act of favour of God, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It is something you are going on to, either morally or historically. But life as we have been speaking of it is a present active thing and necessary to salvation. In effecting it for us the Lord is seen in a more personal way. So that the "heart" of the two with whom He went to Emmaus was burning as He spoke with them; and this effect was completed by what transpired in the house. They would be affected by His presence there as we can readily understand. Some time would have elapsed, because evidently a meal was prepared. He took the house-father's place at table, taking the bread, blessing and giving it to them. All this had a living character and would draw the two disciples to Him. They would begin to feel He was their life.
Their eyes were opened and they recognised Him. The intended effect was produced, and He departed from them. These facts, with others recorded as occurring during the forty days, show how the Lord became endeared and indispensable to the disciples, and now as the Spirit was received by them He became their life. They lived by Him.
J.S. Did they return to Jerusalem in the power of His life?
J.T. In principle, they did. The incoming of the Spirit would confirm the result of this experience in the Lord's company. Indeed, in a sense, it would be confirmed as He was known by them in the assembly as they returned to Jerusalem.
J.T.Jr. The disciples were recognised later as those who had been "with Jesus". That must have been the working out in their ministry of the effect of His influence upon them.
J.T. We can, perhaps, speak very little of it, but we can see that persons who were literally in the Lord's company like those in Emmaus, and all of the others who with them were gathered when the Lord came into the midst, were genuinely affected by Him. According to John's presentation of the same incident, the disciples were glad when they saw Him.
Ques. "The just shall live by his faith", (Habakkuk 2:4); how would you connect that with what is before us?
J.T. That is the principle governing life in christianity -- it is not by sight or by law. It is quoted in the New Testament in three connections.
A.R. The selection of Matthias was on the basis that he was with the Lord from the baptism of John until He was received up, which includes the forty days.
J.T. Yes; so that participation in His life now is dependent on our being with Him. The man in Acts 3 held Peter and John. He had the idea of
contact. The development of the body of Christ is involved in that. It is remarkable that you get in the beginning these thoughts of contact. Peter, looking stedfastly with John upon the man at the gate of the temple, said, "Look on us". He meant to direct his view to them. They reflected Christ and consequently the man stood by them and held them. He had the idea of contact in his mind, and John develops life in connection with the disciples' contact with Christ -- that which we have contemplated, and our hands handled; 1 John 1:1.
A.P.T. The man expected to receive something. The chapter before us says, "Those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life", Romans 5:17. What they receive is through the Person of Christ.
J.T. His feet and ankle bones were made strong. Peter had taken hold of him by the right hand.
A.B.P. Fellowship amongst the saints and the ministry are all a help to us, but if we are to live, we must have personal contact and dealings with Christ.
J.T. That is the point for us today. It is how near we get to Him, and how near we allow Him to get to us. "And they constrained him, saying, Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is declining", Luke 24:29. They constrained Him, so that He did go in and stay.
A.MacD. Abigail had contact in her mind when she spoke to David about the bundle of the living with Jehovah.
A.P.T. There is no change in the government; the same regime continues.
J.T. Yes; it is your own regime. You are not reigning over anybody else; you are supreme in your circumstances.
W.F.K. Is the reigning in life for service? Hezekiah says the 'living' praise Him.
J.T. Just so. You are dominant in yourself and
your circumstances; but it is in life; thus you are free in the service of God.
J.T.Jr. Samson's history should help us. No one could bind him. The men of Judah said to him, "Knowest thou not that the Philistines rule over us?" But he did not recognise that at all.
A.B.P. When the Lord Jesus said to the woman who touched Him, "Go in peace", He had in mind that she would be able to reign over her circumstances; over herself. She knew in herself that she had been healed. She would not need physicians any more.
J.T. The Lord said of Lazarus, "Loose him and let him go", as over against what is said of the young man of Nain; he was delivered back to his mother. The reigning would be by his mother; care for him by her is contemplated; but Lazarus stands out in the dignity of one who is self-controlled; he is in the dignity and liberty of life. People came to see him. When the Lord comes for us, He will call the saints who are in the graves according to the example of Lazarus. He says, they shall go forth. To this end His raising power takes effect in them. "All who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth", John 5:28. They come out in life. It is "resurrection of life". The wicked dead will go forth, too, but not at the same time; it will be to "resurrection of judgment" -- in responsible existence, not life. The dead in Christ shall be quickened in their graves and come forth.
C.A.M. How inscrutable it all is! In their graves they hear the voice of Christ.
A.B.P. The Lord says, "Ye will not come to me that ye might have life", John 5:40. That links on with what you are saying?
J.T. Just so. And moreover, "He that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life", John 8:12. That is active life in Christ.
C.N. Does this involve the apprehension of a certain range of things established in Christ, and our participation in them?
J.T. That would be eternal life. Life in the fullness of it requires environment. We need the Spirit to participate in it. Verse 10 of Romans 5 is Christ's life and how it affects us, which involves nearness to Him. Verse 17 is that I am enriched by the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness, so as to reign in life. We need to see the need of these things so as to overcome circumstances. That is one of the most difficult things we experience, to overcome circumstances; we are so easily affected by them.
W.R. 1 Thessalonians says that "whether we may be watching or sleep, we may live together with him", chapter 5: 10.
J.T. That helps; living together with Him.
W.G.T. "That the power of the Christ may dwell upon me", 2 Corinthians 12:9. Is that the thought?
J.T. Quite so. Paul also says, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power", (Philippians 4:13), so that he is never overwhelmed by circumstances.
J.T.Jr. Would Abigail's circumstances help us in this matter? She had Nabal, a fool, for a husband, involving painful experiences. But in principle she worked out the matter of life, and became victorious.
J.T. Her countenance did not indicate that she was overwhelmed. She was a woman of a beautiful countenance, indeed what is said of her indicates that she evidenced the energy of life, corresponding with David, who "was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance", 1 Samuel 16:12. She was in this sense the feminine counterpart of David, spiritually; the product of the ministry of the first book of Samuel. Typically, she was reigning in life.
F.N.W. If young brothers in the services are deprived of the sphere of eternal life amongst the
saints, may they enjoy victory in this active life?
J.T. Yes. This is a great point in the present pressure. You cannot but think of them day and night in that very connection. They are involuntarily drawn away. They are subject to the Government and all that, but the surroundings and what they have to do are foreign to them. The great point, therefore, for them is to reign in life where they are.
A.R. Some localities are suffering because brothers are working on Lord's day. That is not overcoming in their circumstances.
J.T. It would not be if they are thinking of the increased wages. It is a question of whether we are influenced by the money. This is becoming a hindering and damaging influence. Jacob represents those affected by wages. His wages were changed ten times. It is remarkable that he kept count of them! It must have been a prime matter with him. Being a father, this would influence his children adversely. Even after Joseph was born, when the thought of returning to the promised land came strongly into his mind, he still remained in Padan-Aram, and evidently it was on account of wages. He made a bargain with his father-in-law about cattle. From this last arrangement he made with Laban he got a good return. He was wealthy when he started his home journey. He sent messengers to Esau who were to tell him of his large belongings; and later he sent droves of cattle to appease his brother. That was not reigning in life.
R.W.S. Peter mentions the Spirit of Christ; is it the Holy Spirit who would give victory in the circumstances specified?
J.T. Yes; the first epistle of Peter has that in mind. It was written "to the sojourners of the dispersion", which would mean pressure and discipline -- they had been driven out from the land and the like,
but he brings out the features of life in the Spirit. In chapter 4: 12 - 14 he says, "Beloved, take not as strange the fire of persecution which has taken place amongst you for your trial, as if a strange thing was happening to you; but as ye have share in the sufferings of Christ, rejoice, that in the revelation of his glory also ye may rejoice with exultation. If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you: on their part, he is blasphemed, but on your part he is glorified". That expresses the thought under consideration. "The dispersion" involved sufferings. The second book of Psalms contemplates similar circumstances -- persons driven out of Jerusalem, away from the place of their homes and their hopes, with no prospect of immediate relief. But Peter's epistle implies that in those circumstances the believing Jews were victorious; they were reigning in life.
G.V.D. Did not similar conditions prevail in Habakkuk's day? There were oppressors and lawless workings generally, yet the prophet was superior, saying, "Yet I will rejoice in Jehovah, I will joy in the God of my salvation", chapter 3: 18.
J.T. He is an excellent example of the truth we are considering. In the next verse Habakkuk says, "Jehovah, the Lord, is my strength, and he maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon my high places. To the chief Musician. On my stringed instruments". He is not only victorious in life, but moving on heavenly lines. He makes a remarkable contribution to the service of God.
S.F. Do the expressions in Romans 5 "for if" and "much rather" suggest that what is positive is stronger than what is negative?
J.T. That is right. They show the superiority in what came in through Christ over what came in through Adam.
Ques. Would you say that Paul and Silas were reigning in life in the prison in Philippi?
J.T. A very good illustration. Like Habakkuk, in prayer they sang praises to God.
Justification of life is another phase of our subject. "So then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life" (verse 18). That would indicate that I am justified by life, as James says, before men. What could be a better example of christianity than that?
A.A.T. It involves the testimony.
J.T. Yes. What can you say to a man marked by that feature? In Acts it comes out several times. In chapter 2: 47 the disciples, it is said, had "favour with all the people". Stephen also was a remarkable testimony to this effect of life; Peter and John with the man who had been healed, seen in chapter 4, were also witnesses. And in chapter 5 it is said the apostles were directed to "stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life", Acts 5:20. They went early into the temple and taught. They were examples of the power of life in testimony.
A.P.T. Bowing our heads in thanksgiving to God in public eating places is an evidence of the justification of life.
C.A.M. The effect of this "towards all men" would be seen in the fact that the officers that were dealing with the apostles were afraid to act in violence towards them because of what the people felt; Acts 5:26.
J.T. It is real christianity that we are speaking of, and nothing else will do for representation of God at the present time. Principles in themselves will not do. The truth must be proved in life.
Romans 6:1 - 23; Romans 8:1 - 14
J.T. Romans 6 contemplates baptism, which is the basis of what is said in the chapter, so that in it believers are viewed in the wilderness, and the truth is worked out from that standpoint; instead of the things coming through Christ to us, they are seen as "in Christ"; and we are in Christ. The first feature stressed is newness of life in the saints as baptised. This is obligatory. We are not, therefore, to carry on as before, as in the flesh; but as having come into christianity, we are expressive of newness before the eyes of men; and then this new manner of walk, bearing Godward, works out in righteousness and holiness unto eternal life. So that, generally, chapter 6 is life in relation to light; whereas chapter 8 is life in relation to the Spirit.
A.P.T. There is much use, in chapter 6, of the prepositions 'to' and 'unto'. Would you say something as to that?
J.T. It shows that the teaching is progressive that is, the believer is moving in relation to certain objectives. Illustrative of this, we have, "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (verse 3). Christ Himself is the primary thought, and then His death. We are baptised to "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", (Matthew 28:19), and we are baptised also to the death of Christ; and so we have, "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God" (verse 10). And so, among other things, we have our fruit unto holiness. It is said, "So now yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness" (verse 19). And again, "But now, having got your
freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end eternal life" (verse 22). So that it is all prospective and progressive.
J.D. Do you understand from the verses, "We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death?" (verses 2, 3), that baptism, in its teaching, has entered the soul as light?
J.T. Yes; and the soul is set in movement by it. In chapter 5, things have come to us from the divine side. Now we commit ourselves voluntarily, as the eunuch did, to baptism to Christ, and the sequence is that His death must be involved. We are not baptised to a man here on earth, like Mohammed, but to Christ as having died and risen; and as baptised to Him we are baptised unto His death. Baptism is stressed, involving burial with Him. This must eventuate in change of life. There must be newness, because christianity is not simply an addition to religion in this world; it is a wholly new thing; there had been nothing like it -- "newness of life".
C.A.M. You were speaking of moving in light; would you say that this governed the position of Israel after the Red Sea and until they received the Spirit, in type? What you said about life in relation to light, in this chapter, and the Spirit in chapter 8, is striking, and I wondered whether it would apply to the journey of the Israelites.
J.T. It does. The types help in the elucidation of this; they had light as they passed through the Red Sea; and then we come to Sinai, where the covenant was inaugurated. Well, this has to be settled in Romans. Chapter 7 deals with it; so we have another Husband. Our relation with the Lord, in this sense, is a great help in this matter of life. The new Husband strengthens our position in life. We are "to
another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God" (verse 4). So that God is clearly in mind, and the question of the law at Sinai is adjusted by the truth in Romans 7. In the types, chapter 8 begins properly with the brazen serpent. In general, the journey from Egypt to Canaan is divided into two parts: the first is in connection with the cloud and tabernacle -- the latter starting at Sinai -- that is, light in an objective sense; the second from Beer, the well to which Israel sang (a type of the Spirit), to the Jordan. The latter is not simply life on the principle of light, but life by the Spirit. The Israelites, in type, had received the Spirit, as seen in the springing well. It is said that whoever looked at the brazen serpent lived. The well, as a type, made that a practical thing, so that they moved steadily from that point onward; hence, "for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God", Romans 8:14. That comes out in the typical journey after Beer; Numbers 21.
C.A.M. Do you connect light with the cloud? It was a new order of things for the people after the Red Sea until they drank of the well.
J.T. Yes; the cloud was there even before the Red Sea, but it went through, and it became intelligible, and it became associated with the tabernacle, according to Exodus so it was light. The movement of the tabernacle, or cloud, was a guide for them, but after the springing well (the Spirit subjectively), the tabernacle is hardly alluded to. Henceforth it is a question of the power of the Spirit in us; "the Spirit life on account of righteousness".
J.D. How far has baptism to do with state? "We who have died to sin" (not sins) "how shall we still live in it? Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death?" (verses 2, 3). Is that light in the soul as to the sinful state?
J.T. It is a question of sin as a principle in the world. Baptism implies that we have died to sin (verse 2). Then verse 10 says, "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God. So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus" (verses 10, 11). That is sin viewed objectively as in the world; not yet a principle operating in the believer. That comes up after Sinai. It is in the believer, dealt with in chapter 7. But we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin as a principle dominating the world. The world's principles and influences are in mind. Believers are not obliged to set them aside in the sense of reforming the world, but to regard themselves as dead to them. We "reckon" thus.
A.N.W. Would you make chapter 6 objective, therefore; and chapter 8, subjective?
J.T. Quite so. It is a question of light in chapter 6, so that sin is an objective thing to which you die. It cannot be sin in you. That we are delivered from by the Spirit; as to the judicial side, of course, it is by the death of Christ; but the actual putting to death is by the Spirit. "If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (chapter 8: 13), whereas chapter 6 is objective, and eventuates in righteousness and holiness unto eternal life. But it must not be assumed that these features of the truth are independent of each other or experienced separately; they run collaterally in the history of the soul.
A.N.W. It must have been objective to the Lord for Him to die to sin. There cannot be any such thing in Him.
J.S. Was it intelligence on the part of the Ethiopian eunuch to desire baptism?
J.T. Clearly; it developed in his mind out of what the chapter he was reading taught; Philip instructed him, beginning there: he "announced the
glad tidings of Jesus to him", Acts 8:35. "His life is taken from the earth" -- Christ's life is no longer here.
A.R. As to what you have been saying about chapter 6, is the movement directed through the tabernacle up to the springing well?
J.T. Yes; that is the principle of Numbers 9 and 10; the cloud guided the people. The cloud covered the tabernacle, and when it rose from the tent then the children of Israel journeyed. You do not get that after Numbers 21. Of course, the cloud and tabernacle were there, but they are not mentioned in this connection. The people are reported as moving of themselves after they sang to the well. They went straight forward; whereas, before, they were wandering. They were in a bad state, but the serpent of brass was lifted upon a pole so all could see it, and as many as looked lived; that is, the principle of life was in the look. In the antitype it is a question of faith -- faith and life simultaneously, you might say, in the look. That is the principle, but the life seen there, acquired through looking at the brazen serpent, really involves the Spirit -- the springing well. The well was active and the people sing, "Rise up, well! Sing unto it", Numbers 21:17. There is feeling about it. And from that point onward they moved definitely in the direction of the land of promise. That is simple enough -- it is to me, and I think it ought to be simple and understood by every one of us. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". No other person has the right to claim sonship but those.
A.A.T. I was just trying to get at this thought of newness of life in walking and how it is demonstrated by the believer.
J.T. Well, it is one of the most interesting things we can look at, because it is preceded immediately by the resurrection of Christ; by the glory of the
Father raising Him -- one of the finest and most weighty statements in the Scriptures; "... even as Christ has been raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father". The glory here is the shining out of what God is; clearly, it would be, for He has infinite affection for the Son, and this would be active as the Father took Him out of death. And so the passage goes on: "So we also should walk in newness of life". Well, to be simple about this, we may be sure that when the epistle was read in the assembly at Rome, the spiritual would ask the reader to stop a little at this point to ponder the greatness of the statement and its bearing on the believer's walk. The raising of Christ by the glory of the Father is made to enter into this matter of our walk -- that it should be in newness of life.
J.S. Is it in principle seen in the eunuch, after he came out of death, he went on his way rejoicing?
J.T. Yes; picture yourself in Rome with all its imperial glory -- there could be nothing new in it; it was the same glory as in Nimrod's kingdom and all the great kingdoms that came down in history. There was nothing new, simply the world's glory built up; you would see Caesar's palace and all those glories people used to come to see, but they afforded nothing new. The apostle Paul himself alludes to Caesar and his servants; some of them, through the mercy of God, being converted. You might suggest an extended consideration of this subject of the Father's glory before proceeding with the reading of the letter, which evidently Phoebe had brought. And she might tell the brethren that Paul had spoken to them in the East about that; and that this great fact entered into the first day of the week -- the raising of Christ by the glory of the Father. It shines down through the ages -- the inaugurating of the first day of the week; the holy surroundings of the sepulchre which radiated with glory as the Father took the
Son out of the grave. Think of what it meant! The Father and the Son were there together. In the light of all this it is clear enough that believers must change; they must accept death to the world which crucified Christ, whom the Father just raised by His glory. Every christian in Rome must clearly see that his life must be different. As walking in the light of this chapter, he will not go to court, nor join in any worldly affair. He now reckons himself dead to sin, and alive to God in Christ Jesus. This is the basis for the "walk in newness of life". Accepting it, the saints in Rome would exhibit a wholly new order of things -- walk and ways in which the Father's glory radiate.
J.H.E. Do you see that walk in Enoch?
J.T. Yes; he walked with God. God would not walk with Enoch if he were not in accord with Him.
C.A.M. The word 'patron' is used in connection with Phoebe, as if she had acquired something of this remarkable characteristic.
J.T. She acquired this among the saints where she resided, and evidently came under the apostle's notice in a very special way. He is very complimentary, as has been remarked, in his commendation of her. She would be one of those possibly who had access to society where she lives; but she was now moving about among the brethren, radiating the glory of heaven. She reflected the character of the assembly, corresponding with the "woman of worth" of Proverbs 31. The apostle's commendation of Phoebe indicates that she walked in newness of life. She would, perhaps, visit the sisters in Rome, and one might ask her to go and see some of the shops in the metropolis. Oh, she would say, I have not time for that! People sometimes go to the shops as a sort of pleasure or holiday. Phoebe would not do that. And one could mention many other things that a sister walking in newness of life would object to.
Paul, in mentioning Phoebe, mentions others also commendable. From his salutations it is clear that they walked in newness of life, and thus they afford an array of glory. There is glory shining in every one of these salutations. We may be sure that Phoebe would specially make the acquaintance of those saluted by the apostle. Thus we can visualise how the truth worked out in Rome; especially how newness of life was exemplified.
R.W.S. Is the truth here specially strengthened in verse 5: "For if we are become identified with him in the likeness of his death"? The footnote is, "'grown up with' and so thoroughly one".
J.T. Yes. It is the idea of thorough identification with Christ in His death. The likeness of it is baptism. "So also we shall be of his resurrection". This latter is future, but the point is the present; that we are identified with the Lord Jesus in His death, the expression being baptism.
A.B.P. Is there in it the suggestion that we arrive at a true concept of what sin is as having been dealt with in the death of Christ, and in that way, something of the glory of the Father, which was exercised in raising Christ, is also toward us to bring us into the power of walking in newness of life?
J.T. Yes. Colossians goes further than this. It says, "In which ye have been also raised with him", chapter 2: 12. That is baptism in relation to the faith of the operation of God who raised Him from the dead. Romans does not say we are raised with Him, but that "we shall be of his resurrection"; that is, the likeness goes through; complete identification in life. Colossian doctrine is that we are raised with Christ through the faith of the operation of God, and quickened with Him; but here it does not go that far; the apostle is considering for the saints as in the wilderness, not the full thought of our place
above; thus we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus (verse 11).
A.N.W. Is that not the answer to the "old man" in verse 6: "... knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him"?
J.T. Yes, that is another cumulative thought. "... knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with him, that the body of sin might be annulled". He had already referred to sin: "We who have died to sin" (verse 2). But here it is that the body of sin might be annulled. In Colossians it is "the body of the flesh", put off in the circumcision of Christ, going further; but it is the same idea, that the body -- the totality, in each case -- might be annulled. "That we should no longer serve sin", is the end reached in Romans. It is carrying us through logically, as it were, in the mind. If sin comes up -- something that would influence you -- what are you going to do? Well, this is instruction. It is carried forward from the idea of baptism; to be morally logical, you cannot sin because of your identification with Christ in death, who has died to sin once for all.
J.S. Do you connect love with this operation of the Father?
J.T. It was the operation of love; hence the power of it over our souls.
A.B.P. Is that the result of going through baptism experimentally; seeking to take on the full meaning of what baptism involves? We have to do with a sin-hating God. It is not the Father in that respect, is it?
J.T. No, except as regards the glory.
A.B.P. Does that come in more on the side of newness of life? I mean, we have to do with God and with the requirements of His throne in regard to baptism. But we find the love of the Father radiating for us in relation to newness of life.
J.T. Just so; and then responsibility Godward
as in the wilderness. That is the point He made in mount Sinai. We have to look at mount Sinai in two ways: that is, certain features are figurative of christianity; but legally it is against us; Colossians 2:14. The latter is what Romans 7 deals with. But God is brought in before chapter 7 showing what the wilderness was. "I am Jehovah" -- God constantly pressed that upon them -- that He was God. Now here we have, "So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin" (verse 11). "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all". In the types the death of Christ was constantly before the people: in the Red Sea, and every moment in the tabernacle. In the sacrifices offered it was constantly before them, and then there is the positive side: "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God". His movements in life are towards God. Christ has led the way to God. So that verse 11 says, "So also ye, reckon yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus". That is a fixed position giving us power in our souls to move in the current of His mind toward God, the tabernacle being involved. That is for the wilderness position. The truth works this out. So throughout this chapter you have the thought of God. "Yield yourselves to God as alive from among the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God" (verse 13). Having God before us, we are worshipful, and, at the same time, we are acquiring wealth. In the types in Exodus, from chapter 19 to chapter 24, we see God coming more and more before the people; in severity at first, so that they learn to fear Him; and then He invites them up to be with Him. As they are above He shows His pleasure in them: they are called "nobles". They saw God and ate and drank. Chapter 25 is based on this, Jehovah expressing His desire that Israel should make Him a sanctuary, that He might dwell among them. That
is the blessed culmination of the immediate preceding history. Thus we learn in the typical teaching of Exodus how our God leads us along with Himself, culminating in our becoming, by the Spirit, His habitation. Chapter 20 is the assertion of His rights over us, and He speaks of His lovers -- which should touch our hearts. Every true believer wishes to be among the lovers of God. Chapter 25 assumes that the people are lovers of Jehovah: He is not asking them if they have gold, silver, etc.; the thought is that at this juncture they possess such wealth -- also that they have love, for what is needed is to be a heave-offering prompted by the heart.
J.T.Jr. So you think that when the apostle alluded to "the Israel of God" he would have that in mind -- what Israel became to God in the wilderness?
J.T. That is right -- not simply Israel, but Israel of God. He is really stressing that they are His people, a peculiar people. What will He not do for them!
A.R. Is that why Moses leads the people to meet God in chapter 19?
J.T. Quite so; first they are to be there to realise the terrors of Sinai; the consequences of a broken law -- Romans showing how the death and resurrection of Christ delivers us from them all. God is telling them He abhors sin.
But at this point we should keep in mind what we began with as to God, that in all our exercises Godward, to love Him with all our heart, etc., we are acquiring wealth all the time. And so the 'unto', Romans 6:19. In verse 18 we have, "Now, having got your freedom from sin, ye have become bondmen to righteousness". That is another thing -- bondmen to a principle. And also in verse 19, "Yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness"; what we are acquiring, righteousness and holiness -- what we urgently need; and not simply in an objective sense, but what we are developing into
substantially. The chapter goes on to say, "When ye were bondmen of sin ye were free from righteousness". They did not care anything at all about it. They were heathen and the question did not even come into their minds, and christendom has largely gone back to that. People have but little regard for righteousness. The apostle says, "Ye were free from righteousness. What fruit therefore had ye then in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of them is death". They were corrupt in the worst degree. "But now" (notice the words 'then' and 'now') "having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness". Notice "your fruit"; not yet "fruit unto God", but "your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life". That is the order, so we are built up in wealth and liberty through this process.
F.N.W. Does not Psalm 105 go over this ground somewhat? It speaks about silver and gold; and not one of them stumbled. They had power to walk; then light in the cloud of fire by night; and the breaking forth of the water out of the rock. Possibly Romans 6 and 8 are included in that; the wealth, and the power to serve God.
J.T. Yes. They had "come out with great property", Genesis 15:14. That is to be remembered. I suppose it was not coordinated at the outset; this would take place at Sinai. And they were acquiring wealth all the time from the Red Sea to mount Sinai. This would especially include holiness, which is what God requires, because if He is to have a dwelling place, we must have righteousness and holiness; and then life. All was there (in type, at least), as set out in the items specified in Exodus 25.
J.D. One can see the great point with the apostle in verse 4, "... raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in
newness of life". In the light of this there is to be newness of life in every one of us.
J.T. The idea of the Father's glory was soon to come up; it was involved in the Spirit's coming in. He proceeded from the Father. The Lord Jesus received the Spirit from the Father and shed Him forth, and the glory at the sepulchre would surely be carried down; in type, the tabernacle becomes the home of it, as you might say. If it is to find a residence there must be practical righteousness, holiness and life.
A.R. I can thus understand how, in Exodus 25, the material for the tabernacle would be a heave-offering; it would suggest affection.
G.V.D. Have you a practical word for us as to verse 17, "But have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which ye were instructed"?
J.T. That enters into what we have just said. They had obeyed from the heart. Chapter 5 says, "The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit". On our side, the Holy Spirit operates in connection with obedience. In Exodus 25, God uses the word 'sanctuary' as well as the word 'dwelling'. The word 'tabernacle' here is 'dwelling', but 'sanctuary' implies holiness. Thus in Romans 6, "righteousness unto holiness". We must have these things in order to make a sanctuary for God.
J.S. After Exodus 20, does Jehovah go on with the people on the basis of committal in the Hebrew servant, who said, "I love ..."?
J.T. The latter is chapter 21, but in chapter 20 you have the "ten words", and then the two altars, and God saying, "In all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee" (verse 24). That is chapter 20. It stands in relation to the law in connection with which God speaks of lovers. Then chapter 21 brings in one Lover, a supreme Lover. He has ascending love,
horizontal love, and descending love. That must be kept in our minds. The bondman is Christ. It is to teach us how to love in the wilderness. It enters into the glory of the tabernacle.
J.D. Did all that come in in connection with the form of teaching? "... have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching" (verse 17)?
J.T. Yes. We were speaking of teaching in John's gospel. Paul makes much of it, indicating graded order in it. The school of Tyrannus suggests that. It is not mentioned for nothing. There is a curriculum in christianity. Paul, in serving at Corinth, calculated what the saints there needed. He says, "I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified", 1 Corinthians 2:2. We have to go through that course. It is "the form of teaching" given at Corinth.
A.B.P. In John 6, the Lord says, "The words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life" (verse 63). In that chapter, He repeatedly says, "... and I will raise him up at the last day". Does there not seem to be a suggestion in that, that He has great delight in raising up those who come into this life as hearing His words? I thought it would link on with the glory of the Father in this great act of raising Christ, and would suggest that those who go through, not turning back when the ministry becomes difficult, yield great joy to the heart of Christ.
J.T. John 6 is that we might go down. Of course if we have gift from God we acquire distinction. But John 6 is for every one of the brethren; it is a difficult chapter, but it is most essential instruction. What is He going to raise up? Those of moral worth, according to what the teaching implies. The Lord went down; He was raised up. That He was a divine Person was involved, but also what He was morally; what He was to God as in testimony here. And that is most important, especially in John's ministry.
How lowly the Lord was! And how many were going back when He was saying the greatest things He was unfolding eternal life, and asked the disciples, "Will ye also go away?" And Peter says, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God".
J.T.Jr. Is that the force of the mind coming into prominence in Romans 7 and 8? The thought of teaching involves the mind.
J.T. Yes. "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law", chapter 7: 25. To the Corinthians he said, "We have the mind of Christ", reminding us that the natural mind is useless; we have to learn how to use our minds as divinely given to us, because the natural mind is corrupt. Hence the need of the renewing of our minds, to prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Chapter 7 brings in the idea of the mind, and in chapter 12 its renewal is spoken of.
A.N.W. The reception is with the mind and obedience is from the heart.
J.T. There is in chapter 7 an allusion to the marriage bond which is seen, in type, in the wilderness. There is the thought of another husband in the antitypical sense. In the legal sense it is Judaism, which influenced, adversely, early Jewish christians, and we have to understand that we are "to be to another". The old marriage bond has been abrogated through death, through believers being made dead through the body of Christ, "to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God". That is because the service of God must go on -- not only the accrual of wealth to ourselves, but unto God. This implies that He is to be served "in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". All that enters into the matter of current, active life. So all our meetings, involving the service
of God, are to be marked by renewal and consequent refreshment and vigour; thus in them we have life in the sense of serving God in newness of spirit.
A.P.T. In chapter 6, it is "dead to sin". You would say that is a principle, a system of things? In chapter 7, it is "dead to the law". Is the same idea carried out, but in relation to what was really good from God in that sense?
J.T. Yes; the old husband. The early Jewish christians were delivered from the Jewish system by the death and resurrection of Christ. That is how chapter 7 works out. The writer says, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law" (verses 24, 25). So I am free now. I am in control of my mind; and that leads the way for chapter 8 where the Spirit has scope, "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death". The Spirit comes in at once, affording liberty.
J.H.H. Would the woman who had five husbands be an example of what you are saying?
J.T. Yes; it was not the law that was disturbing her, but the vicious life she lived, but now she would be to Another. She moves in life -- the spring within, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
R.W.S. Does the principle of life in chapter 6 lead into eternal life; and is the Spirit more life in activity in chapter 8?
J.T. Yes. The Spirit of life is the first phase mentioned in chapter 8; and verse 6 reads, "For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit life and peace"; and verse 10, "But if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness"; and in
verse 13, "For if ye live according to flesh, ye are about to die; but if, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live: for as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God". In this chapter active life by the Spirit is contemplated. Chapter 6 finishes the subject of eternal life. Generally progressive experience is contemplated but ending in eternal life. That great blessing is not opened up in Romans. It is a fixed blessing afforded -- "the act of favour of God". To the end of chapter 6 it is mentioned four times in the epistle.
J.D. Presented as an objective thought?
J.T. Yes. Other scriptures show that it is available to be entered into and enjoyed by the believer.
J.D. Would you say a word on the law of the Spirit of life?
J.T. The Spirit of life is the Holy Spirit; the "law" is clearly the principle governing it as over against "the law of sin and death". "Law" is used here in the sense in which it is employed to express principles governing the universe. It is accepted by the mind and worked out experimentally. Paul says of it that it had set him free. So the law of the Spirit of life will certainly become operative in the believer as he gives it scope. It helps us to note that the truth immediately culminating in Romans 8 is extremely experimental; and it is also helpful to note, as already remarked, that the effect of the law of the Spirit of life is reached in an experimental way, as stated by the apostle of himself.
2 Corinthians 2:14 - 17; 2 Corinthians 4:7 - 11; 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 4
J.T. It will be observed that the passages read speak of life somewhat in relation to those who serve; those who carry on the ministry; running on from the idea of odour in ministry. In chapter 5 we see the final effect of life, "... that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life" (verse 4). It is thought that, first, we might connect our subject with the collective position as at Corinth. It includes occasions such as we are presently engaged in, particularly as marked by life operating in those who carry on the ministry. It is carried out in mortal bodies but culminates in this remarkable statement, "while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life". Then, the victorious characteristics of the great truth of life. Chapter 15 of the first epistle enlarges on this subject, involving the resurrection of the saints' bodies; persons who have actually died. But what is contemplated here is rather being "clothed"; mortality being thus swallowed up by life. This refers to those who are alive in their mortal bodies when the Lord comes. We can hardly speak of all this with consistency save as we are characterised in some degree by life in our services.
A.P.T. It is remarkable that in chapter 1 the apostle connects two other brothers in the preaching of the Son of God. "For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him", 2 Corinthians 1:19.
J.T. The preaching of the Son of God at Corinth in that three-fold testimony would amplify what we have had from Romans, in which we are told that
Christ is "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", Romans 1:4.
A.R. He also links on Titus in chapter 2: 12: "Now when I came to Troas for the publication of the glad tidings of the Christ, a door also being opened to me in the Lord, I had no rest in my spirit at not finding Titus my brother; but bidding them adieu, I came away to Macedonia. But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ". It shows the peculiar link that must have existed between Paul and such men.
J.T. Both in relation to fellow-servants and also to the saints generally. The minister affects those ministered to, as the apostle says, "we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh; so that death works in us, but life in you", chapter 4: 11, 12. Life is effected in the saints generally by the ministers accepting death. This involves the organism in which God has set us all. It is also seen in chapter 5 of the first letter, in which he says, "For I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged as present, to deliver, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ ..." (verses 3, 4). The principle of it is that we are all affected by the impulse of the Spirit in one or more, so that I think these epistles serve to exercise those who minister, not only as to their words, but themselves. The ministers themselves affect the saints generally, so Paul says further, "For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake", chapter 4: 5. Then all that follows, about "our mortal flesh", has in mind the reaction in the saints' lives -- death working in the servants but life in those ministered to.
A.N.W. What does the idea of odour suggest to you in connection with life?
J.T. Well, evidently it would be in Paul. He says, "But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place", (verse 14). That is the first thing; it is the odour of the knowledge of God; and then, "we are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish". The latter is the most remarkable statement: the odour is not in the persons who refuse the truth but in those who minister the truth. There is something for God in both cases, whether it be in the saved or in those who perish. All involves the ministers; the odour is in them by the Spirit.
J.H.E. Could that be likened to the odour that God smelled when Noah offered up sacrifices? God smelled an "odour of rest".
J.T. Yes. That is a suitable scripture to bring in here. The thought is mentioned early, and it is carried through here in peculiar freshness in Paul's ministry.
A.R. In the verses you read in chapter 2, the use of the words 'us' and 'we' is remarkable; it includes the other ministers with Paul in his ministry.
J.T. Well, the apostle would, in principle, link them with him -- the two that were already mentioned: Silvanus and Timotheus. Hence the preachings are so important, even though there may not be conversions -- where the power is, there is fragrance.
C.N. Is that why he asked, "Who is sufficient for these things?" (verse 16)?
J.T. Yes; it is not simply that one can preach, and present the truth of the gospel; the odour of it must go with it, and that involves life.
A.B.P. It is an odour in them and an odour to them according to the passage read.
J.T. The odour would be in the minister. "We are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish: to the one an odour from death
unto death, but to the others an odour from life unto life"; the 'to' would mean, I think, that the preaching bore on the persons who heard, whether they refused or received the truth. What they heard would involve the fragrance of the gospel. The allusion is to a triumphal procession in which odorous drugs were burnt. Some in the procession, including captives through the victory celebrated, would be appointed to death, others to life: all sharing in the odour.
C.A.M. Ephesians 5 speaks of Christ loving us and delivering Himself up for us "an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour" (verse 2). That would be the fragrance of the burnt-offering, would it not?
J.T. Yes; as in Genesis 8, already alluded to "Jehovah smelled a sweet savour". In the testimony of the gospel there could be no odour save in the sacrificial death of Christ entering into it. That is how I would understand 'to' in the unsaved person. You might say, It is useless. But it is not; the preaching being in such power as is contemplated here, was fragrant to God anyway, and it bore on the responsibility of the persons who were lost. The fragrance of the death of Christ through the gospel is part of the testimony. Even as the gospel is refused, the fragrance of Christ is there.
C.A.M. Would that be exemplified in Noah's preaching? It was not received. Then there was the fragrance of the sacrifices in the new world.
J.T. I think that section of Scripture bears on this. Noah's preaching was evidently about one hundred and twenty years, contemporary with the building of the ark. Was it all for nothing? It was for nothing as far as external appearances went, but certainly not in the nostrils of God. According to Peter, Christ Himself preached at that time: "... put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in
which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison ... in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing", 1 Peter 3:18 - 20. Jehovah had said, "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man", Genesis 6:3. That striving would not be barren as regards the effect on God Himself, any more than the hovering of the Spirit over the waters; Genesis 1:2. Divine feelings would be expressed in these actions of the Spirit. It would be in a mediatorial way. It is the Spirit of God, and God would gain from His activities; it was not all barrenness. The action brings God in, in effect, from the outset -- not disappointedly, but from the exigency of the purposes of His love.
C.A.M. I think that is remarkable. It seems to my mind to throw light on the fragrance of Noah's burnt-offerings and on God's ways before. Everything must be fragrant to God in that way.
J.T. Even in the creation this is true. Wisdom said it delighted in what was done. Well, God must have had something in that. It was all mediatorial. Even creation was mediatorial work: "by whom also he made the worlds", Hebrews 1:2; and the recovery of the earth from the state it was in, as described in Genesis, must have occasioned something for God. It could not be barren, inasmuch as there was a divine Person operating, and so in Noah's day, "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man". But when you come to the burnt-offerings, they were not at the beginning of the operations of Noah, but at the end. It was a renewed earth that came in, and it was from the divine side, under the fragrance of the burnt-offerings. Undoubtedly all was connected with Noah, even including his preaching and other services before the deluge.
A.N.W. Would the thing be seen in some way in John 12? The house was filled with the odour, diversely affecting one, at least.
J.T. Yes. Judas' attitude could not detract from it. In truth it would be an odour of death to him.
A.P.T. In Peter's first epistle, to which you have referred, he speaks about the eight that were saved. The odour of life was in the saved, and the odour of death unto death was in those who came under the penalty of the flood.
J.T. Quite so; the odour of death must in some sense reflect the death of Christ. There could not be anything for God aside from that. So it opens up a good deal as to what God had throughout in His operations. The preaching of Noah, in measure, corresponded with the preaching of Paul.
W.R. The same scripture says, "... but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison", 1 Peter 3:19. Who would the 'he' refer to, and who are those in prison?
J.T. Those in prison are the ungodly to whom Noah preached, when the longsuffering of God waited in his days. So the savour would be there in the preaching of Noah. It is the retroactive ministry of Christ. The preaching was His, but through Noah. The statement is striking: "made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached". The preaching was through Noah, but it was the Spirit of Christ in a retroactive sense and the savour would be there; death was there in the flood. It was not negative; there was something for God in it, because God's Spirit had been striving there through Noah. Anyone with any sensibility Godward would know what was there, but the Lord says, "as it took place in the days of Noe, thus also shall it be in the days of the Son of man: they ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them" (Luke 17:26, 27); that is, they were wicked and indifferent to the gospel, but nevertheless God was getting something from the preaching. The
longsuffering of God brought Him into the position as it brought Him into Paul's position in a later day. In this connection it is remarkable that Jehovah smelled the "odour of rest" in Noah's offerings; and this affects the whole period of the earth's service "all the days of the earth".
W.G.T. So the preaching took place in the days of Noah; not while the spirits were in prison, but during their life here on earth.
J.T. That is right; they were marrying and giving in marriage; they were carrying on, disregarding the gospel.
A.B.P. Would this passage suggest that ministry should appeal to all the senses; not only that we sit and hear the words, but there should be discernment through the spiritual senses, such as smell, taste and sight? Should not the whole being, so to speak, be affected?
J.T. Just so. It makes God victorious all the time, and us, too -- "thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph"; this refers to apostolic service, but there is what corresponds in all true evangelical ministry. Therefore, we are to be encouraged that our labour is not in vain in the Lord.
A.P.T. The word 'odour' appears also inverse 14, "and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place". That is a remarkable word. Does it refer to the movements of the Lord's servants?
J.T. I would say that wherever Paul went, there was such fragrance. Take Philippi, for example; what fragrance was there in the sufferings of Paul and Silas, and the ultimate result in the gospel!
A.R. Is this going on all the time -- since Pentecost, but especially in our day when apostasy is developing?
J.T. Quite so; God is not living in disappointment. He is always victorious because of the fragrance there is in the death of Christ, and the ministry
carrying that forward. The Spirit maintains it. The holy anointing oil, which was fragrant, enters into this. Christ, as anointed, went about doing good, for God was with Him. There was continued fragrance there.
R.W.S. Is the allusion to trading, in the last verse, a warning to those who serve, lest they lose their scent in making a trade of divine things?
J.T. There would not be any fragrance in that, nor sensibility to odour either.
Now chapter 4 carries on this thought in the ministry. The apostle says, "Therefore, having this ministry, as we have had mercy shown us, we faint not ... But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake" (verses 1 - 5). He is still occupied with what characterised himself and his preaching; and what he had in mind was that in his body -- his mortal flesh -- the life of Jesus should be manifested.
J.S. You would see radiancy in his body.
J.T. You would; and even napkins taken from it effected cures, showing the virtue there was in that body. It may at any time become cold in death, but whilst the Spirit of God was there, life as it shone in Jesus was expressed there. The apostle was always bearing about in his body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in his body. God would have it thus; and so Paul says, "We who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh" (verse 11). He continues, "So that death works in us, but life in you".
C.A.M. You made an allusion to 1 Corinthians 15.
I wanted to ask you as to whether that does not imply that there is an inward spiritual change taking place in the saints in view of all that glorious external thing. I was wondering whether the second epistle shows this is now taking place in some inward way in the saint, contemplating this mortal being swallowed up.
J.T. The swallowing up is in the application of life to us as we are at this moment. Romans 8 says, "he ... shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you" (verse 11). This links with what you allude to as spoken of in 2 Corinthians. Paul says, "For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this we groan, ardently desiring to have put on our house which is from heaven; if indeed being also clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we who are in the tabernacle groan, being burdened; while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life", 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 4. What you suggest as to an inward continuous change in the saints is what is in mind in the passage in chapter 4, which reads, "Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day. For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory" (verses 16, 17). Now there you have the renewal day by day which is wholly spiritual. In this sense, there is no change taking place in our bodies. But when we are 'clothed', the body is changed -- made to correspond with what we are inwardly. What we are inwardly, our spiritual being, is renewed day by day. "For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory". That is, there is something going on that is covered by those wonderful
words. But the body is untouched by these things it may be sickly although there can be no doubt that the body of a believer is affected by piety as it comes under the government of God; but it is mortal, however godly he may be.
J.H.E. What we do outwardly is the result of what we are inwardly, is it not? Stephen's face was as that of an angel; there was an inward work there.
J.T. Yes; the mortal provisionally serves to express the spiritual, which is what the apostle stresses in chapter 4, as we have been noting.
A.N.W. Does not 'swallowed up' suggest a sudden action, and is this not coincidental with the word in 1 Corinthians 15, that death is swallowed up in victory?
J.T. Yes. Clothing is a literal act of God that takes place in the twinkling of an eye. It is the transformation of our bodies of humiliation into conformity to Christ's body of glory; it is regarded here from the standpoint of the believer's experience and desire rather than doctrinally, as in 1 Corinthians 15.
R.W.S. The treasure is still in the earthen vessel -- a fragile vessel.
J.T. Just so; it is there while we are in that condition. It is not there while you are in the grave. It is a provisional condition we are in now; so it can be said, "We have this treasure in earthen vessels". But as soon as I die, all is negative until the Lord comes. While the Spirit is in me here, I am regarded as alive. "We, the living who remain". So the change, according to Romans 8, is "on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". Administratively, all comes under the Lord Himself -- the Lord Himself descends. The Holy Spirit does not take us to heaven, although it is manifest that He has part in the great transaction. The Father, the Son and the Spirit have part in the raising, quickening and translation of the saints.
R.W.S. Is the working of God in us now connected with the earthen vessels?
J.T. The earthen vessels are used as a provisional condition in which God is pleased to set His testimony. The earthen vessel is fragile. It might seem like a worm on the street, trampled at any time and destroyed; but it is not; God looks after it. The present testimony is carried on in earthen vessels, and not only so, but in mortal ones. The great triumph is that God can preserve us while in our present condition. The apparent fragility of the vessels employed shows that the surpassingness of the power is of God and not from us.
W.G.T. Gideon's torches were to remain in the pitchers until the pitchers were broken.
J.T. That is right; the allusion here is to Gideon. Going back to Gideon helps; the light was inside and when the vessel was broken, the light shone out.
A.B.P. Would the selection of those who went with Gideon link on here too? They were evidently those who were not unduly concerned about their bodies.
J.T. Yes. They were laying down their lives, you might say. The three hundred persons (against myriads of Midianites) had already begun to lay down their lives when they lapped the water; they were typically full of the testimony, surrendering natural comfort and propriety because of it. They did not consider for themselves. They lapped like a dog. That would mean that they were not governed by mere natural feelings, implying ease and consequent delay; very little time would be consumed in the transaction, and so they could quickly proceed to the conflict. It is a question of touching lightly what is naturally necessary. Leadership enters into it, and the breaking of the earthen vessel.
A.P.T. In the first scripture we read, is the life active Godward -- what God gets in the odour?
whereas in chapter 4, is it more the testimony horizontally; how we are manifesting this light?
J.T. That is right; the effect is in the saints -- "life in you" -- "Death works in us", says the apostle, "but life in you". That is to say, Gideon's vessel and those of the three hundred were broken; the light shone; the testimony was sounded; and the result was Israel's deliverance.
A.R. Chapter 4: 4 speaks of the "radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ". That is, I suppose, what was shining in the ministry.
J.T. Yes. God had shone in Paul's heart. And now he alludes to Gideon's pitchers as types; being fragile, and having torches in them, they symbolise the Lord's servants in their mortal bodies. The apostle himself had been drawn out of the city of Lystra as dead; but, as he says in our chapter, he was "not destroyed", for as the disciples encircled him, he rose up and entered into the city and on the morrow resumed his service.
J.S. Is that leadership in death?
J.T. Yes; it is the acceptance of it, as Paul describes it here: "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us: every way afflicted, but not straitened; seeing no apparent issue, but our way not entirely shut up; persecuted, but not abandoned; cast down, but not destroyed" (verses 7 - 9). That is what was happening to him from without, but "always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body". This latter was from his own side. God's thought was that through Paul's afflictions the saints should be helped; therefore the apostle says, "So that death works in us, but life in you". It is a remarkable turning of the outwardly adverse circumstances of a servant to the profit of those he served.
Isaiah 38:19, 20; Colossians 2:12, 13; Ephesians 2:4 - 7
J.T. In what has come before us so far in our subject, life in its present activity has been stressed. We looked at certain passages in 2 Corinthians last month, connecting our subject with those whom the Lord uses to minister the truth. It is thought that we should now look at Colossians and Ephesians.
The subject of quickening is especially in mind as essential to the service of God. And so Hezekiah's remarks in the passage read in Isaiah furnish a good introduction from the Old Testament -- from one who had been down into death, as it were, and had his life extended for fifteen years. The experience he had led him to value life as he had not valued it before; hence he now says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day ... . And we will play upon my stringed instruments all the days of our life, in the house of Jehovah" (verses 19, 20). We therefore have an excellent introduction by one who has had experience in death but now is typically made to live. This is enlarged upon in Colossians and in Ephesians; so that as we afresh look into the truth in those epistles we may be able to speak more experimentally about life.
J.T.Jr. Do the stringed instruments suggest David's instruction?
J.T. It rises to David's ministry; indeed, he made instruments of praise; 1 Chronicles 23:5. So that we may take Hezekiah as representative of the house of David; he is addressed here in that sense. The historical books record much of the service of song in Hezekiah's reign, and all is much linked with David. In 2 Chronicles we have the highest thoughts, typically, represented in Hezekiah. So he may be
rightly used as introducing us into Colossians and Ephesians.
J.W.D. Do you look upon this thought of playing as a quality of life?
J.T. Yes. Playing on stringed instruments would require agile and trained fingers. Cramped or paralysed fingers which, spiritually, would be found with us if we are not with God, could hardly use such instruments. So that the free action of life is required. This enters into what Hezekiah says in verse 19: "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day".
A.R. Earlier in the chapter he says, "In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol". Does that mean that he has gone that distance literally?
J.T. Well, he had experience in death in that anticipative way. He further says, "I am deprived of the rest of my years". He was a comparatively young man. He had come to the end of his days, as he thought, so that he had the experience of death anticipatively and therefore he represents a risen man such as Colossians suggests.
J.H.E. Does this correspond with what the Lord says: "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it, and whosoever shall lose it shall preserve it", Luke 17:33?
J.T. Hezekiah was losing his life, and Jehovah gave him fifteen years; but that is typical, of course; life in the true sense is in the antitype. He had given up his life. He says, "I have cut off like a weaver my life. He separateth me from the thrum -- from day to night thou wilt make an end of me" (verse 12).
A.N.W. Have you in mind his statement, "In all these things is the life of my spirit" (verse 16)?
J.T. That enters into what we are saying; a man is speaking to us who had experience with death. Paul speaks of "so great a death", a tribulation in
which he despaired of living, "But we ourselves had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not have our trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead: who has delivered us from so great a death", 2 Corinthians 1:9.
R.W.S. Is the depth of this character of experience more or less an index to the enjoyment of life?
J.T. Just so. And hence, as I said, I thought Hezekiah's remarks form an excellent introduction to our subject, because Colossians contemplates the believer as dead. "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ, seek the things which are above ... for ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God", Colossians 3:1 - 3. Thus Colossians affords light which works out into experience of death and resurrection with Christ. If we are to be in the assembly according to God, this experience is essential.
W.R. "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh", Ecclesiastes 1:4. I was wondering as to whether this passage links with what Hezekiah says, "The father to the children shall make known thy truth" (Isaiah 38:19), whether he is showing the coming generation how the service of God is to be maintained.
J.T. Yes; it is to go on in a living way. One great principle of this dispensation is that what it began with in the Spirit's power was to be carried down. So that we now are sharing in what others have experienced and put into effect. Hezekiah is, I think, a type of such men. Largely through their teaching and example we know how to serve God; the Lord, we may say, constantly helps as to assembly service through teaching that comes to us currently.
J.T.Jr. Is David's charge to Solomon in regard to the house and Solomon's ministry confirmatory of this?
J.T. That is clearly seen in 1 Chronicles. David had accumulated what was needed so far for the
house and then he said to Solomon, "And thou shalt add to it" (1 Chronicles 22:14); so that the addition would be in Solomon; and others following also added. That was a principle established. And so now we have a son of Solomon, and of David, in Hezekiah and he is adding. According to this record he added to the service of God. What is in mind is that the younger men should add to what there is; but the addition must be according to what has come down to us as divinely given. And that is what Hezekiah is doing. He is adding to what was there. We have nothing in what preceded just like what is seen here.
T.E.H. Would the young man Eutychus (Acts 20), add to the service of God as he was brought back to life, no little comfort being derived?
J.T. That is the principle. "They brought away the boy alive": note that he was alive. This helps as to our general subject. We have a good many young ones among us, and we often talk about them. Practically, as spiritually alive, each one is an addition. Eutychus was of value. We may say that in Troas there was no boy like him, for he was received from the dead. So undoubtedly he would be nurtured in the assembly as one that would be characteristically of Paul's company.
A.R. Does what you have in mind involve not only death but also the idea of burial? Hezekiah refers to "Sheol" which involves the grave.
J.T. Quite so -- "Buried therefore with him by baptism unto death", Romans 6:4. Romans prepares us for Colossians in that sense; but you can see in Hezekiah how he had been in the thing thoroughly, and Paul says, "I die daily". How real was his experience of death!
A.B.P. At a previous meeting, we had the thought of the power of life in Romans, and then in Corinthians, the fragrance of life. Does melody of life come in here?
J.T. Very good; this latter marks David's ministry. He made much of the instruments of music; and Hezekiah following, speaks of "my stringed instruments". Habakkuk comes in later as another who added to the service with similar suggestions. He adds "my high places", which would be Ephesians. He says, "Jehovah ... maketh my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon my high places", Habakkuk 3:19. He also says, "To the chief Musician. On my stringed instruments". He added to the service of God.
C.N. You said that the experience of death is a necessity for the enjoyment of this life. Would you help us as to how this death is experienced by us?
J.T. It was implied in the reading on Romans 6. That chapter says, "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death" (verse 3). Evidently, the Romans were not making much of His death. They were recognising that baptism was to Christ, so far right but the apostle was stressing in Romans that it was to His death, and he led in that way, especially according to what he says to the Corinthians. In the first epistle he speaks of dying daily, and of persons being baptised for the dead; and in the second letter he speaks of the "great death" that in some sense he had experienced. He also speaks there of the odour of his preaching "from death unto death". So that in those epistles, in the apostle himself, we have an example of one who had been into death experimentally. It was very real.
J.W.D. Hezekiah, before he became sick, was much engaged with musical instruments, and he comes back in life and is again occupied with them. Do you see development in that?
J.T. Yes. It was the end that God had in mind in the experience He brought him through. His death was divinely ordered. "In those days Hezekiah
was sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, Thus saith Jehovah: Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die and not live" (verse 1). It was directly ordered of God as He had ordered Moses' death, and Aaron's death, and clearly with the object in view that he might have the experience of death in the continuance here of the service of God, and that he might add to it -- that he should know how to use musical instruments in that service more efficiently than he had used them before -- as a risen man.
A.N.W. And not only musical instruments, but in this case, stringed instruments. Did the experience of death involve that those stringed instruments were tuned afresh?
J.T. Yes. We often speak of the difference between stringed instruments and wind instruments. Of course wind is more suggestive of life, but stringed instruments are of a higher order. They bring in what is heavenly. So Habakkuk brings in the idea of high places, and hinds' feet. But we are, as it were, in the presence of a man, in Hezekiah, who has been through death in his soul, and now he can say, "We will play upon my stringed instruments all the days of our life, in the house of Jehovah".
F.N.W. Was he alluding in what he says to 'these things' in connection with life in verse 16?
J.T. Yes. You can see what an experience he had, for "In those days Hezekiah was sick unto death" (verse 1). That is a serious matter, to be sick unto death. You may bring the doctor, but the man was sick unto death. The Lord Himself was "sorrowful even unto death". It was a real thing anticipated beforehand, and then the further word is, "The prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, Thus saith Jehovah: Set thy house in order; for thou shalt die". That is confirming the thing, that he is sick unto death. It is the word of
God. It is God's ordering, and Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed, etc., and then we have the encouraging word that he is to live for fifteen years. And then after his recovery he tells in his writing what his experience was. The fact that it is a writing shows it is not only for his own generation, but for later generations. So he goes on to tell us how he felt when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness; that is, he is now a risen man typically, but he is able to give an account of his experience. We may compare him with persons in the New Testament who were raised from the dead. Take the young man of Nain -- what could he say? Or Jairus' daughter, even; a girl of twelve -- what could she say about her experience? What could Lazarus say about his experience? We are not told what they said or what they could say, but we can understand that they had solemn and searching experiences. Well, we need to understand what that is spiritually now; what can each of us say of the experience of going through death in a moral way? God puts you through circumstances where it is nothing else but that, and then He takes you out of them.
J.S. Is this experience in view of teaching?
J.T. It is in view of the service of God in His house. That is what we are seeking to get to in the account Hezekiah gives. He says, "I said, In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see Jah, Jah in the land of the living. With those who dwell where all has ceased to be, I shall behold man no more" (verses 10, 11). No true believer would say that now. But Hezekiah evidently had no more light. But how dreadful the anticipation "where all has ceased to be". He further says, "Mine age is departed, and is removed from me as a shepherd's tent. I have cut off like a weaver my life.
He separateth me from the thrum: -- from day to night thou wilt make an end of me. I kept still until the morning; ... as a lion, so doth he break all my bones. From day to night thou wilt make an end of me. Like a swallow or a crane, so did I chatter; I mourned as a dove; mine eyes failed with looking upward: Lord, I am oppressed; undertake for me" (verses 10 - 14). That is all historical; Hezekiah is out of the exercise, but he is telling us about it. And then he says, "What shall I say? He hath both spoken unto me, and himself hath done it. I shall go softly all my years in the bitterness of my soul". That is the result that God foresaw, and now he says: "Lord, by these things men live, and in all these things is the life of my spirit; and thou hast recovered me, and made me to live". That is the man. "All these things": they are not the great things of his life as a king, as men would say, but they are the things by which he was living. That is a man who is playing his stringed instruments in the house of God.
J.S. Is that why he adds, "Jehovah was purposed to save"?
J.T. Quite so; and he also refers to Jehovah's love for him: "Thou hast in love delivered my soul from the pit of destruction; for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back" (verse 17). That is to be especially noticed because we are now approaching the service of God in His house. His delivering love has this in view; the assembly's great eternal place and portion in heaven is the answer to God's "great love wherewith he loved us", Ephesians 2:4.
R.W.S. And then does he discover others who had the same experience? The 'I' and 'me' change, in verse 20, to 'we' and 'our'.
J.T. Quite so; others would join in the prolonged service contemplated -- "all the days of our life". And that is what we are aiming at now; that the
brethren, as in life, might enter feelingly into the service of God; even in the singing of a hymn; that our hearts might be fully drawn into it.
J.W.D. Would you say the measure of our participation in the service of God stands in relation to the measure in which we have experienced death?
J.T. That is what I thought we might learn from Hezekiah's account of what he experienced. And so in Colossians, for the apostle furnishes us with names of some Colossian saints. Well, we need, as it were, to set ourselves down in company with the Colossian saints and consider as to how this epistle would affect them and compare the result with the epistle's effect on ourselves. Chapter 2: 12 says, "Buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead" (verse 12). Paul's exercise was to arrive at the resurrection from among the dead, not simply as a matter of faith, but of realisation; Philippians 3:11. And we see in Colossians how the apostle had in mind that they should be brought on to a status of resurrection, especially for assembly service, that we should reach that state of things in power. It is a question of faith laying hold of the energetic working of God in raising Christ from among the dead. It is through the faith of that that we are able to take the ground of resurrection in assembly service.
W.G.T. The word is 'active internal power', according to the footnote.
J.T. It is the thought of 'energy'. In Ephesians our being risen with Christ is not stressed; it is our being raised up to heaven that is the point; that we are quickened and raised up to a heavenly place and status. Resurrection itself does not take us off the earth; Ephesians contemplates us in heaven, and sitting there. And that involves quickening, our
being taken out of death with Christ by the mighty power of God.
J.S. With a view that we might strike a higher note?
J.T. Yes; that is in view; our blessings are in the heavenlies.
A.B.P. Where does the "unconquered" daughter of Zion come into this? She seems to be the focal point in God's mind in Isaiah 37. I wonder if she might suggest that form of power you were speaking of?
J.T. Quite so; it is the virgin-daughter. It would mean moral superiority, I think, to the Assyrian influence; but then in the same connection you have, "the remnant ... shall again take root downward and bear fruit upward", chapter 37: 31. That has the same thing in mind only in the idea of life expressed in a vegetable figure.
F.N.W. The apostle speaks of "the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being conformed to his death" (Philippians 3:10), is that taking root downward?
J.T. Yes; "being conformed to his death"; and that he might arrive at the resurrection from among the dead; and then to reach the goal, which is the calling on high. "The calling on high of God in Christ Jesus" is Ephesian truth.
F.S.C. Did you say arriving at the resurrection from among the dead was apart from faith?
J.T. No; while we are down here faith must always enter into our exercises; but arriving at the resurrection from among the dead is a question of energy operating in us. We could not attain to it without the Spirit, however clearly our minds might take it in.
J.W.D. Is the word 'ye' in Colossians 2:12 the idea of an assembly position in life to which I am drawn?
J.T. A collective position is contemplated, leading to the body in verse 19. "He has quickened together with him", verse 13 strengthens that. "Together" means that we are collectively linked up with Christ in the quickening.
A.N.W. Whereas in Ephesians the "together" is that we are together?
J.T. Yes, raised up to heaven by ourselves. Christ is not mentioned until we come to "in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus"; not with Him, but in Him; that is, status above. The quickening in Ephesians is with Him. God has quickened us "with the Christ"; that is, that He has been in death, and we have been there, too -- "dead in offences", and now we are quickened with the Christ. Then the next statement is "... has raised us up together", that is, with each other. It is not a question of Christ being raised but the saints raised together, and not in the sense of resurrection as in Colossians, but raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ.
A.R. What you are speaking about will presently take place externally when our bodies are changed; whereas by the power of the Spirit operating in us now we are changed internally?
J.T. Exactly. The Spirit being here, we have christianity. Without the Spirit, however much light we may have, we could not have christianity nor the assembly. It is important to bear that in mind.
J.W.D. What would be the difference between known energy in our souls in a Colossian sense, and the use of the Spirit in Romans 8?
J.T. There is not much difference only Colossians stresses faith and the working of God, who raised Christ. Note, "ye have been also raised", which is not said in Romans. Nor is it said in Ephesians, the heavenly position being stressed there. You get it in
chapter 1: "The surpassing greatness of his power towards us", but we are not said to be raised by it; the heavenly position is in view. In Colossians the working of God is specially part of our faith, and hence our being raised with Christ is intelligible: the moral point would be our complete transference from the earth to resurrection ground. The Colossians were in danger of earthly things which might be regarded as good things in themselves; and the thought of resurrection involving the power of God laid hold of by faith implies a basis of transfer from the earth and hence deliverance.
Ques. Is that why the apostle says, "If therefore ye have been raised with the Christ", Colossians 3:1?
J.T. Yes, "... seek the things which are above, where the Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth; for ye have died" (verses 2, 3). That is what is called a hypothetical statement; that one thing depends upon another. If I am risen, according to chapter 2, the next thing is that I am dead, like "the dead man Lazarus"; still in Bethany, but dead in this moral sense.
A.P.T. In John 11, Lazarus has grave-clothes on which would be removed; I was wondering if there would be any link with what we read in Colossians; certain things had been taken out of the way.
J.T. Quite so. "Having effaced the handwriting in ordinances which stood out against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it also out of the way, having nailed it to the cross" (verse 14). That is what Paul is doing at Colosse. Like Lazarus, the saints there were risen, but they needed to be loosed and let go.
W.G.T. Is burial emphasised more in Colossians than in Ephesians? In Ephesians, we are said to have been "dead in offences" whereas Colossians,
while it also says this, adds "buried with him in baptism".
J.T. I think so. We are not said to be risen in Romans, but Romans leads to Colossians where we are said to be "buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with him". It is remarkable that baptism becomes here a figure of resurrection as well as of death; 'in which' implies this. Coming out of the water is a figure of resurrection. The apostle is using what is obvious: that the baptised person comes out of the water. It is that you are positively away from the earth, that is, in a moral sense. You do not go back to earthly ways. He is dealing with the earth.
A.N.W. Does that mean we rehearse the baptism in our own souls?
J.T. Just so. We maintain the thought of it. In Romans we are told that we should walk in newness of life; but Colossians goes beyond this, the earth being in mind, the "good" side of the earth.
R.W.S. Is that why the companionship 'with him' is mentioned, to make it practical to leave that kind of a world for another?
J.T. That is it; if you love the Lord Jesus, you like the thought of being with Him; and then, of course, there is companionship with the brethren also.
J.S. Do you not have a change of soil in Ephesians, being rooted and grounded in love?
J.T. You do; the assembly in its formation is more pronounced in Ephesians than Colossians. Ephesians is the full thought of God: the saints set down together in heavenly places.
A.R. We often speak anticipatively of being thus all together; in principle we have it when we come together in assembly every first day of the week.
J.T. That is the idea. So Ephesians is essential to the service of God in its heavenly character. We belong to heaven. How often do we touch that?
Very seldom. But we should go out on that note because we are to be here as a heavenly people; no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints, and of the household of God.
J.A.P. Elisha, identifying himself with the child and raising him up, would fit in with your thought of Colossians?
J.T. Yes. The type foreshadows Colossians. The child's trouble was in his head. In the process of restoring him the prophet "walked in the house to and fro", as if there was something in it that had damaged his mind. Placing himself on the child, as described, would imply that as restored he would take character from Elisha.
W.G.T. Is burial an intelligent way of dealing with death?
J.T. It is; it is a real thing to be buried like Lazarus, buried four days, it is said. It is to bring out the reality of death. Burial belongs to death.
A.B.P. Is this quickening an advance on resurrection?
J.T. They are collateral, not as occurring together instantaneously, but in general bearing; I am speaking of them literally. In this sense quickening is first historically and in some connections it includes the body: resurrection "shall quicken your mortal bodies", Romans 8:11. But in Colossians resurrection is mentioned first, only it is a matter of faith, as we have seen; whereas quickening is actual as it affects us down here and it does not, in this sense, affect our bodies.
A.B.P. Is resurrection an act of power outside of us, whereas quickening is what happens within us?
J.T. I would say that. When a man is about to be actually raised from the dead, something happens in him immediately before, because he hears the voice of Jesus; John 5:28. How does he hear it? Something
has happened in him corresponding with quickening.
J.T.Jr. I suppose we learn quickening experimentally now in the assembly. How do we act in the assembly? Why are there those who are practically dead in it?
J.T. That enters into what we have been saying -- that the living praise God. In Ephesians quickening is put before the raising up into heaven; whereas in Colossians the resurrection is before quickening. The apostle stresses faith in relation to power, enabling the believer to take resurrection ground, because, as we have been saying, it is a question of overcoming earthly conditions.
J.W.D. Do the words "in the which" cover the thought of buried with Him?
J.T. Yes; the words refer to baptism, which symbolises burial and resurrection, as we have been saying. Association with Christ in burial and resurrection is in mind.
A.R. Twelve stones on the banks of the Jordan would be a witness to what you are saying.
J.T. Yes; they represent the people as having come out of Jordan. That is the idea; and as we have often been taught, the Red Sea and the Jordan coalesce. We have to understand that word, especially as there were forty years between the crossing of the Red Sea and the crossing of the Jordan.
J.W.D. Is the thought of quickening something experimental, following on the possession of the Spirit?
J.T. It is, and that is, I believe, why there is so little mention of the Spirit in Colossians, whilst there is a great deal said of Him in Romans and in Ephesians; it is His work that is in mind in Colossians. You need that to understand what coming out of the water means; that it is resurrection; that is, I am
free from the earth as well as from the world. Coming out of the Red Sea, Israel entered the wilderness, which Romans contemplates. Colossians is an up line, Canaan being in view. Thus the exhortation, "Have your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth".
F.N.W. Does Mary reach that point in her soul in John 20 in being absorbed with Christ? She is ready for the ascending line.
J.T. Just so; as the people cross the Jordan, much is made of the ark, especially as in the river. There is no ark in the Red Sea. It is at the Jordan the ark is seen in the water, and it remains there, until the people all go over as following it, but after they go out of Jordan, there are twelve stones taken up out of the water, meaning that they had been there. Colossians contemplates that we "have died". The twelve stones mean that the Israelites had been in Jordan and that they started a new history there. They came up out of the water, but after that there were certain experiences needed before they partook of the old corn of the land, that is, for us, in the antitypes, food proper to heaven, that in the counsels of God we are indigenous to it.
T.E.H. When the Lord Jesus came up out of the Jordan He prayed. Is there a sense of dependence as you come out?
J.T. Quite so; you can see the example He sets, as coming up out of the water. He prayed, and while He was praying the Holy Spirit came upon Him. That is the principle, that power keeps you in the wilderness.
A.R. Would you say more about the idea of the saints as in heaven? We can understand in a little way the idea of resurrection which takes place on earth; whereas according to Ephesians we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies.
J.T. Romans regards us as in the wilderness. We are said to be dead to sin. Colossians says "ye are dead" like "the dead man Lazarus". Ephesians teaches us that we belong to heaven -- in this period of testimony the Holy Spirit takes us there:
Revelation 2:7, 10; Revelation 4:6 - 11
J.T. It is thought that the feature of the general subject before us, suggested in the "living creatures", as mentioned in Revelation 4, connects with our last reading in which we considered life in Colossians and Ephesians; that is, quickening in both these epistles, as qualifying us for the service of God and association with Christ in life. Hezekiah was alluded to because he speaks of the living praising God. It is believed that what has already been said on the subject of life will be augmented by looking at these scriptures in Revelation, enabling us to carry on the service of God in the midst of apostate conditions. The thought of life runs through the whole book. The Lord introduces Himself to John as the living One who became dead and is alive for evermore. The tree of life is a sort of main sub-division of our subject today. It is found in chapter 2 and in chapter 22.
We should begin with the tree of life as suggestive of life according to the purpose of God. It is not simply to meet conditions here. It was a divine thought before sin came into the world and will remain after sin is dealt with -- put away from the universe; for it seems to be always connected with its own proper environment: the garden in Genesis 2 and the heavenly city in Revelation.
A.P.T. Primarily, there was no prohibition on the tree of life, was there?
J.T. No. Prohibition was first on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil only.
A.B.P. There is no suggestion of diversified fruits in Genesis. Would you consider the twelve fruits in Revelation 22:2 as resulting from what has transpired between Genesis and Revelation?
J.T. Yes; the idea of administration enters into them. The twelve fruits seem to be a millennial connection.
A.N.W. Does the position of the tree in the midst of the garden denote that it dominates the situation?
J.T. Yes. It is said to be "in the paradise of God" in Revelation 2 and in chapter 22 it says, "In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life" (verse 2), as if it were in a dominating position throughout. It would be Christ as the expression of life, made available to us in the sense of growth. The meaning of its central position is very obvious.
A.B. How do you understand that verse you quoted from chapter 22: "In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life"?
J.T. Well, it seems to bear out what has just been remarked, that it is available centrally. In the midst of its street would be where activity was. The tree of life is available to all in the heavenly city, where all is in accord with itself. It is there dominantly and profusely.
A.R. Is there not something significant in the fact that this is the reward for the overcomer in Ephesus? The Lord says to the assembly there, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen". In spite of the departure the overcomer can be maintained in his heavenly calling.
J.T. Yes. In declining conditions we have this available to us, corresponding with other things that are available in these last days, the greatest thing being the service of God.
A.R. So that being disassociated from what is the way of departure, the overcomer can carry on, can he not?
J.T. Yes. In Thyatira there is a change in the position of the overcomer; in the address to that
assembly he is mentioned before the words, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies", whereas in our verse those words are placed before the reference to the overcomer. The obvious meaning of this is that in the earlier assemblies the decline was not so extended as it became in Thyatira and those that followed. Things became worse in Thyatira and onwards, but the decline began in Ephesus. The suggestion is, however, that in the first three assemblies there was more readiness to hear the Spirit than there was in the later ones. It is clear also that the best things were available to the overcomer in Ephesus.
A.A.T. This was not held out to the assembly?
J.T. No; there is nothing promised, in this book, to the assembly viewed as having failed as responsible on the earth. What is presented in Revelation, as blessed and abiding, is the assembly from the standpoint of purpose; it comes down from God out of heaven. The public responsible body is spued out of the Lord's mouth. But the assembly as come down from God out of heaven is what comes in at the end; things are all secured to the overcomer.
A.B. Is there something in the fact that each of the addresses is given to the angel of the assembly?
J.T. Yes; the responsible element, representative of the assembly in each place mentioned, is addressed. "The seven stars are angels of the seven assemblies", chapter 1: 20. The angels would be representation, as in Matthew 18:10. The word has also the sense of messengers. Although the assembly had failed, it still was responsible; but in Thyatira and afterwards, it is a remnant: "to you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira". A remnant is formally addressed there.
A.R. Would paradise anticipate manhood? "I know a man in Christ" (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul says when speaking about being in paradise.
J.T. Just so. That testimony was brought into
the assembly at Corinth. He does not tell us what he heard. The thief also went there, so that the testimony of paradise was already in the assembly. The allusion to it is thus intelligible; it is the paradise of God. It is not something that God provides to meet conditions brought in by sin, but what He had in His mind before sin came in; so that what we are coming into eternally according to purpose is not an afterthought. It is not something brought in to meet conditions here, but to answer to the purpose of God -- the purpose of His love. It is a question of His love; what His love will do for us. In the epistle to the Ephesians we read, "because of his great love wherewith he loved us (we too being dead in offences), has quickened us with the Christ (ye are saved by grace), and has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies", chapter 2: 4 - 6. All that is a question of the working out of His own love, and I think we have to take the tree of life in that connection; in its own environment. As in Eden it was barred to man; but the great thought remains -- now found in another condition altogether. It is above; Paul was caught up there.
H.B. "To him that overcomes" would link with John 14:23? "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him".
J.T. "We will come to him and make our abode with him" is a provisional position here, based on our love for Christ and keeping His commandments. But the paradise of God is primary. It is included in His thoughts and purposes that were interfered with by the incoming of sin, but redemption having taken place, it comes to light again. It is not a new thing brought in to meet sinful conditions. Those conditions are dealt with otherwise, so that paradise should again become available to man. Hence the Lord speaks of it to the thief as available to him.
A.N.W. Would you go so far as to say that the paradise of God would be prior to Genesis 2?
J.T. Genesis 2 brings out what He had in His mind, and sin interrupted. And hence the long years of conflict; and that completed, there is a recurrence of the primary thought.
J.S. Is that consequent upon redemption accomplished?
J.T. It is not presented exactly as the fruit of redemption; it was there, and redemption became a necessity because of the interruption that came in by the serpent. Eternal life stands in that connection; eternal life is over against what came in; that is death.
J.S. The primary thought is recovered.
J.T. It never was lost. Man was driven out of it; and the cherubim were set at the garden to guard the way to the tree of life. It appears in heaven.
A.A.T. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and also to paradise. Is there a distinction?
J.T. There are two thoughts in 2 Corinthians 12; the first is "to (as far as) the third heaven". That is a question of altitude. The other is "into" -- not the third heaven, but paradise. I suppose God intended that Paul should have that experience to bring into the assembly economy.
A.R. Was the tree of life in Genesis linked up with time and the earth; and is the tree of life referred to in Revelation 2, linked with a condition prior to time?
J.T. That is what I was saying. It is Ephesian truth, being spoken of to an overcomer at Ephesus. Thus it would be intelligible to him. The epistle to Ephesus does not exactly meet conditions resulting from sin; it is a question of the purpose of God. It is said to that assembly that God has "blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ", Ephesians 1:3. That word 'every' is most comprehensive. It is not simply blessings coincidental to
the meeting of the question of sin, but whatever God had in His mind. It is a question of His great love, and not simply that it is attested by the gift of Christ, but by His purpose as to us being accomplished. His great love is that He has quickened us with Christ and has raised us up together and made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. In the beginning of the epistle the apostle says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ; according as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love; having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he has taken us into favour in the Beloved", Ephesians 1:3 - 6. There is nothing there about redemption. The primary thoughts of God are in mind. They are always in mind, but sin interrupted them. Of course, this was foreknown, and hence redemption must come in; and so we have immediately, "in whom we have redemption" (verse 7). And so the paradise of God is placed on an infinitely higher level in Revelation than it is in Genesis. But Revelation 2:7 clearly alludes to Genesis 2 and hence we have the link with the purpose of God before sin came in with the accomplishment of that purpose in the eternity to come.
A.N.W. What do you understand to be involved in the possibility of man stretching out his hand and taking of the tree of life?
J.T. It is God's way of showing what a catastrophe it would be. God effectively prevented it. His great blessings were not for man in his sinful condition. What an awful situation would ensue if sinful man were to live for ever as he was! And the suggestion is that it would be the result of the tree of life left
unprotected. But it was not left exposed to the action of man's hand. It is as if God would show that a crisis may occur in His affairs and how effectively He can meet it. The wording in Genesis 3:22 - 24 indicates feeling in God Himself.
L.H. Would the tree of life involve the new order of man in Christ?
J.T. It would; that is, as seen in 2 Corinthians 5:17, 18: "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new". But life as presented in Romans and developed generally in Scripture is to meet conditions effected in this world by sin. Of course, viewed thus it is positive blessing, promised by God and available to man through redemption. It involves the victory of God in a scene of death. In view of darkness and death, life is introduced in John's gospel as in Christ as "the light of men", chapter 1: 4. It was active in overcoming death, and in Him, redemption having taken place, it became a fixed order of things to be laid hold of and enjoyed by the saints, through faith, in the power of the Spirit. In this sense the believer has it even as in his condition in the wilderness. This would merge or link with the tree of life. But the tree of life is presented as special and always in its own environment -- in the paradise of God or in the heavenly city. The paradise of God implies more than the tree of life, but it is replete with life. The tree of life, although in the city, is seen as affecting the millennial earth, but only through its leaves. The fruit is for the heavenly saints of the city.
W.W.M. In Ephesians the saints are said to be "holy and blameless before him in love", and in Corinthians we read of certain things "which God has prepared for them that love him", 1 Corinthians 2:9. Would these facts enter into the thought of the paradise of God and the tree of life?
J.T. Yes. The immense importance of love is stressed; in the passages you quote, love in the saints -- of course, in answer to God's love. Even before sin entered there was no one before Him in love in the garden of Eden. And after sin entered, no one was admitted. The cherubim kept the way of the tree of life until Christ died, rose and ascended to heaven. Even while He was here, no one was admitted; it was life in testimony -- not the idea of the paradise of God; the paradise of God implies that life is there. It is replete with life, but there are other features of Christ besides life.
A.A.T. When Paul was in paradise he heard unspeakable things. Is that a hint as to what is in paradise?
J.T. "I know such a man, (whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows;) that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter", 2 Corinthians 12:3, 4. There is allusion to what is beyond anything known hitherto by men. The apostle speaks of "the exceeding greatness of the revelations". They would evidently have exceeded what was given him for practical ministry. They were intended to impress him so as to affect him in his service. He kept what he heard fourteen years, but was he not impressed? Was there not something about him exceeding any other man on earth? He was, so to speak, a paradise man -- one who had access there.
Ques. Do you connect that with Peter's ecstasy; Acts 10?
J.T. Well, it is another matter. Peter went up so pray and became in an ecstasy. There is no suggestion of an ascent; it is a state. The vessel descended to him. But Paul says expressly that he was caught up into paradise.
A.B. He says in that chapter, "Of such a one I will boast, but of myself I will not boast". Is there
something in the fact that in the word to Ephesus, the Lord says, "Remember therefore whence thou art fallen"?
J.T. That is an allusion to moral descent. It is said to the Ephesians that God "has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". That is the general position of the assembly as viewed in the epistle to the Ephesians.
A.B.P. Will you explain what is the process by which life is produced and made available as fruit?
J.T. I think that is the tree accommodating itself to conditions here. The healing of the nations is only a provisional thought. The monthly yield of the tree clearly relates to time. It shows divine adaptability to conditions. But what do you say yourself?
A.B.P. The production of fruit must have a bearing upon the creature; life being brought into such a form, or character, that it is available to the creature. Life certainly existed before creation, but probably in a character which could hardly be described as a tree of life.
J.T. The idea of the tree is clearly to make things available to us and make things intelligible. There is no indication that the fruit is available to any outside the city; the leaves only are used outside. Therefore the bearing is millennial. But chapter 2 is the full thought of the tree; "the tree of life which is in the paradise of God". It is not only the tree of life, but where it is -- its own proper environment. So that even the twelve fruits seem to be all for the inhabitants of the city, but in relation to the millennium, because in Revelation the city is seen in that relation. It has come down to influence things here below. No doubt we shall need this kind of fruit to maintain heavenly distinction, very much corresponding to the old corn of the land. It is indigenous to the land, remarkably
introduced in Joshua as the people entered Canaan. It is all to bring out the greatness of the heavenly. And whilst the tree of life stands related to the earth in the millennial day, generally it denotes eternal conditions.
A.B.P. In life, there must be that which is beyond what we can comprehend, in that God lived before He moved in relation to creation.
J.T. Yes. In John's gospel life is presented in Christ in relation to men. According to the original wording the light of it is for them only. The testimony of life as over against darkness is stated. The tree of life is presented in Scripture as existing before darkness entered. Life had its origin in God. This is witnessed in Genesis 1 where it is referred to in its forms known on earth. The gospel, as already said, speaks of it as in Christ, but only in relation to men. Thus it is brought within man's range of understanding. Still, its source is in God and hence it is infinite in its bearing. But we cannot conclude from this fact that paradise is the place of the existence and enjoyment of divine Persons, for God dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen nor is able to see. Paradise, in which the tree of life is seen, clearly has man in view. God has His part in it, but in relation to man. It seems the tree of life should not be detached from it. We should, I think, always regard the tree as "the tree of life which is in the paradise of God". Its fruit is the best available to the overcomer in Ephesus. The apostasy had not fully developed; the public body was still owned of God, but in decline, and hence the need of overcoming. The overcomer would not be deprived of the very best things the assembly had from Paul's ministry. I think that is what was meant.
A.R. So that as touching eternal conditions, appropriation of such food is the great thought; you are sustained in the sphere of it.
J.T. Yes. It is to be eaten -- if the tree is valued it will be appropriated. The word 'eat' implies appropriation. Our great weakness generally arises from non-appropriation of food presented to us. We take things in intellectually, but we do not assimilate them. One of the most important sides of the truth is eating, as taught in John 6. The best things of God are opened up to us and we must make them our own, causing them to enter into our constitutions so as to give character to us.
F.N.W. Why is the tree of life introduced in addition to our having the Holy Spirit?
J.T. It is to bring out what had been available in Ephesus, and that in spite of the decline that had set in this was still there for the overcomer -- the very best things God has for us. Paul had announced to them "all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27.
A.N.W. Do you identify the tree of life with Christ personally exclusively, or is there any way in which the assembly shares?
J.T. It is a figure, but clearly alluding to Christ as the source of life, making it available to man. Failure in the general position does not prevent its availability to the overcomer. In contrast Adam's sin excluded him from the tree of life in Eden. Revelation 2:7 is a direct allusion to Genesis 3. The assembly is viewed as the heavenly city; that is where the tree of life is. That is to say, it is life in its own proper environment. Life in Christ come down here in testimony is another matter; it is outside of its own environment. It is here in testimony and we are made to partake of it in testimony, but what the Lord has in mind for the overcomer in Ephesus is that he is to eat of the tree of life in its own environment; that is, the paradise of God. As there, it answers to divine purpose.
L.H. With regard to paradise in the promise made by the Lord to the malefactor in answer to his request
to have part in the kingdom: would the malefactor's thoughts be on an entirely lower level? The Lord introduces what was according to the purpose of God.
J.T. It was greater than the kingdom, although the Lord did not say the "paradise of God" -- just "paradise".
L.H. It is "with me" -- the tree of life would be in that expression, would it not?
J.T. Yes; only it would be a provisional matter because the Lord there alludes to His disembodied condition, which also has to be taken account of.
Rem. The garden of Eden would be provisional, too; the tree of life was in the midst of the garden, but in Revelation 22 it is in the city. It is a permanent thought.
J.T. It is in the city, but in availability; that is, "in the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side". It is prevalent. It is in a millennial setting only in its own environment.
H.B. Do you think the eating in chapter 2 is a higher thought than having 'a right' to the tree in Revelation 22?
J.T. Yes; having a right to it is acquired through washing one's robes, whereas to eat of the tree of life is a reward given by the Lord to an overcomer. The receiver, being an Ephesian, would appreciate such a favour.
J.S. Does that correspond with John 6?
J.T. John 6 treats of what has come down here; the Son of man come down from heaven to give life to the world. That is all in view of testimony. The thought before us is the tree of life in the paradise of God, given to an overcomer in the conditions mentioned.
J.S. Then would Paul be especially marked as a heavenly man on earth after coming back from paradise?
J.T. Undoubtedly that was what was intended --
that he should be reflecting what he was presenting in ministry.
C.H.H. The unique experience of the apostle would not be necessary in order for us to avail ourselves of the tree.
J.T. No. It was special to him because he was a great minister, but he was not only a great minister, but a great man -- a great person. He was made greater than he ever was before, in a practical way, after he went to paradise, so that down here amongst the saints he was different. For fourteen years the brethren got the benefit of that.
A.B.P. Would what he says to the elders from Ephesus, in Acts 20, be the practical expression amongst them of what he had partaken of in paradise?
J.T. I would think so. In affording those who serve Him special advantages, the Lord has in mind that the saints should gain. The five hundred, for instance, to whom the Lord appeared, according to 1 Corinthians 15, would be marked persons. Some of them had fallen asleep when the epistle was written, but others had not. So long as they were here there was a special family testimony in them because they were appeared to as brethren. They would suggest the heavenly calling. Christ is "firstborn among many brethren", Romans 8:29. Cephas is not mentioned as representing that, nor James, nor the twelve, nor even Paul; all those were related to the testimony here. But the brethren will go on into the sphere of the purpose of God. They all are called "according to purpose", to be conformed to the image of God's Son.
A.B. Is that why he says, "I have not shrunk from announcing to you all the counsel of God", Acts 20:27?
J.T. Yes; and that would imply that he was representative of it; he would be expressive of it in
some way. He was walking "worthy of the calling", Ephesians 4:1.
A.B.P. And their sorrow that they would see his face no more would be in keeping with what you were saying?
J.T. Yes; what a face it must have been!
A.P.T. "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:17. Does that synchronise with paradise?
J.T. Pretty much; but creation, viewed generally, is not as great as paradise. Paradise seems to be reserved as a thought expressing God's best.
A.R. Had we lived in early days, we would have been impressed with the idea of apostleship -- the dignity and ability to do things through conferred divine authority; but having gotten near to the apostles we would discover that there was a personality in them distinct from and even greater than apostleship. It was the result of divine formation in connection with experience, and that is what we ought to seek after.
J.T. That is what this food would nourish -- the fruit of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.
A.N.W. Is this the highest of any of the promises to overcomers in the seven assemblies? It is the solitary promise to the overcomer in Ephesus.
J.T. That to Smyrna is, as faithful unto death, "I will give to thee the crown of life"; and the word to the overcomer in that assembly is, "He ... shall in no wise be injured of the second death"; his circumstances are in relation to death. To the overcomer in Pergamos the Lord gives "of the hidden manna". That is Christ as once here; also "a white stone, and on the stone a new name written, which no one knows but he that receives it". Thyatira: "And he that overcomes ... to him will I give authority over the nations". Sardis: "He that overcomes, he shall be clothed in white garments, and
I will not blot his name out of the book of life". Philadelphia: "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". This is to be compared especially with the promise to Ephesus, but it stands more in relation to the service of God; the temple of God and the city of God. Finally, Laodicea: "He that overcomes, to him will I give to sit with me in my throne; as I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne". If we compare, I would say that the promise to the overcomer in the assembly in Philadelphia is the greatest of all. What would be given to the overcomer in Ephesus is great and precious, but it is for himself, for his eternal enjoyment, whereas the overcomer in Philadelphia is completely identified with the temple of Christ's God, with the name of Christ's God, with the name of the city of Christ's God and with Christ's new name. All this is involved in the heavenly order of things entering into the service of God down here in which the overcoming saints in Philadelphia had faithful part -- feebly indeed and as despised, but the Lord will honour them as having maintained the service of His God in the time of His rejection.
Now, in reading in chapter 4 the thought was to consider the living creatures -- how life is seen in them protecting, as it were, God and His interests. They are in the midst of the throne and around the throne. "And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind; and the first living creature like a lion, and the second living creature like a calf, and the third living creature having the face as of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle. And the
four living creatures, each one of them having respectively six wings; round and within they are full of eyes; and they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come. And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanksgiving to him that sits upon the throne, who lives to the ages of ages, the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages; and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created" (verses 6 - 11). I thought this would be useful to have before us for the idea of living creatures would include ourselves; that is, the saints of God viewed as living, but living in relation to God; not simply for their own enjoyment, but as useful and protective of God, sympathetic with Him in all that He is doing, and making way by intelligent energy for the greater thought of eldership. We have been alluding to it in our prayer: those advanced in years amongst us. The living creatures would represent youthful energy. That is, they are used in the part of the work that may be regarded as subordinate.
W.R. I suppose we see that in the assembly of the Thessalonians. Paul addresses them as "the assembly of the Thessalonians in God the Father".
J.T. Yes; they were in the Father's affections peculiarly. They were youthful, and in the energy of life, working in faith and labouring in love. They were not self-confident, ready to imitate those who were walking in the ways of God. They became imitators of the assemblies of God in Judea, and they too, became examples. They "became models to all that believe in Macedonia and in Achaia". So that there was in them a leading on to something
greater, and that is what I thought we might see. It is not gift, so much, but living persons under the head of four.
A.R. Would verses 9 and 10 suggest that the service of the elders and living creatures would blend? "And when the living creatures shall give glory and honour and thanksgiving to him that sits upon the throne, who lives to the ages of ages, the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages". Do you think that this might supplement what we have been saying about the heavenly side -- that in the activity of life the youth and the elder are merging in their service?
J.T. Yes, that runs through the whole book to chapter 19. It shows that God intends that living energy and experience are to mark His service.
J.T.Jr. Do you see that in Moses and Joshua? Moses the experienced and aged, and Joshua representing living energy serving in a subordinate sense? It is well to remember, however, that on one important occasion, Joshua's hearing was defective; Exodus 32:17, 18.
J.T. Yes; all this is to work out; we have a sort of preliminary to the things that were to be, that John would write about: the things that come after the assemblies. While this chapter is part of the third section of the book John was to write, the principle in it that we are speaking of enters into the present period. The saints of this dispensation, too, are characterised by eldership and youthfulness. The whole realm of creation is in view in the living creatures, indicated in the symbols employed. That is, the first living creature is like a lion, and the second like a calf, the third has the face as of a man, and the fourth is like a flying eagle. God intends us, as sympathetic with Him in our service, to be conversant with universal conditions -- universal features of
the testimony -- because the testimony is marked off as meeting conditions and God contemplates that these are met in living energy. The apostles at the outset were young, also even the Lord Himself and John the baptist. Paul, too, was young. Later, Paul says, "Paul the aged", and John addressed the saints as "the elder". These facts we are to understand as to ourselves; and as indicated in these living creatures, we are to have a universal outlook. And it is not simply that we have it in an objective way, but we labour to meet the conditions however far they are from us; we must have the whole position in our minds.
J.S. Do you think that is why strength, as in the lion, is brought in first?
J.T. No doubt; the Scriptures would explain to us what each creature means, but one thing is, I am sure, certain, that if we are patterned after these living creatures we would be concerned about the testimony universally, and how it works out in relation to conditions.
H.B. The flying eagle here represents rapidity?
J.T. It is life active in that way. Elsewhere we are told that eagles mount up.
J.A.P. Would the eyes within help to keep us in self-judgment so that life is maintained?
J.T. Well, yes; the living creatures are specially remarkable, as to their eyes. First, it is said they are "full of eyes before and behind", and verse 8 says, "... round and within they are full of eyes". In all these we have a remarkable symbol of inward and universal penetrative discernment. "And they cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come". The living creatures thus honouring Him who sits upon the throne, "the twenty-four elders shall fall before him that sits upon the throne, and do homage to him that lives to the ages of ages,
and shall cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honour and power; for thou hast created all things, and for thy will they were, and they have been created". It is a wonderful scene. It includes the first two chapters of Genesis -- the whole creation in relation to God; all for His pleasure.
J.T.Jr. Are the crowns brought forward? They cast them before the throne. Do they allude to the experiences the elders have come through, and in which they have been victorious with regard to good and evil?
J.T. Yes. They are acquired crowns.
F.N.W. The living creatures "cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty". Would that be an appeal to young christians today, as recognising conditions in which they are, and the sense of the need, being maintained day and night? And behind that is this substantial service to God in the older brethren?
J.T. Just so; night is made a great deal of in Scripture -- "the night seasons" -- in which to pray, and the like; in which to be with God.
A.R. Perhaps the idea of the flying eagle would link on with the scripture you referred to in Isaiah 40 "they that wait upon Jehovah shall renew their strength: they shall mount up with wings as eagles" (verse 31), suggesting persons who pray in the prayer meetings.
J.T. Yes. I believe God is greatly stressing the prayer meetings, adding on Monday to what we have on the Lord's days.
A.B.P. Does this fit in with assembly service that the energy and freshness of affection of the younger brothers might find normal outlet in the earlier part of the meeting, and the older and more experienced brothers might reach a higher point than others could at the end of the meeting?
J.T. Well, I never like to see a meeting taking on the character of a choir, where each one takes a set part. Intelligent liberty should mark us; so that while regard for experience and spirituality should have its place, a young brother should be free to take part in the service in any phase of it as he has liberty in his soul as before God.
A.B.P. There sometimes seems to be the feeling on the part of the younger brothers that it is polite to wait upon their elders to take part first, but that kind of thing should not govern us in assembly service.
J.T. The young ones should be, I believe, a little freer than they are generally, and yet not too active, because, after all, you need the lead as well as the end to be reached.
Genesis 3:20 - 24; Genesis 4:26; Genesis 5:21 - 24
J.T. It is thought that the tree of life deserves further consideration in relation to our subject. We looked at it in Revelation at the last reading, the allusion there (chapter 2: 7), is clearly to Genesis 2. It was in the midst of the paradise of God, and it was spoken of as thus having a dominant position. Revelation 22 speaks of a river "going out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, the tree of life" (verses 1, 2), showing that the full thought that God had in mind in Genesis is there. The leaves of the tree bear toward the millennium, and even the fruits, being twelve, allude to the administration of it in the millennial day.
There are other references in Revelation, such as fountains of water, that would link on with our subject. We should keep clear in our minds that whilst the tree of life in Revelation 22 bears on time, yet it properly belongs to the purpose of God, what God had in mind before sin came in. The actual fruits of the tree apparently are restricted to the inhabitants of the city, and the city having come down from God out of heaven, the links are quite clear as showing that the tree of life was a primary thought, not a thought introduced to meet a condition arising, but a primary one. Therefore we shall need to enquire why it is restricted in Genesis 3. Man is excluded from it. The Lord will help us, I believe, to see how life comes in, meeting conditions here, as it were, independently of the tree of life, because Adam having had a judicial sentence pronounced on him does not speak of death but rather of life; that is, he calls his wife by name, Life, as if he had some
inkling from God that although he is debarred from the tree at the moment, there is a way to life nevertheless, but it is through death. So that immediately after he speaks of life we have the record that Jehovah clothes him and his wife with skins. There is no allusion to the garden there; it is a question of death coming in in view of life.
Then it is thought that we may also see life in Seth in calling his son Enosh, which means weak or mortal. "Then people began to call on the name of Jehovah" (Genesis 4:26), involving that if Enosh is a dying person and if there is to be anything eternal, it must be through death and God must raise the dead; at least, that is how we should regard it now. And there is confirmation in the New Testament in addition to Genesis 5, that Enosh "should not see death"; that is, that death is overcome in Enoch by life through faith. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death", Hebrews 11:5. That statement is not here but in the New Testament; it involves redemption. Enoch represents the thought of life, not only in its inward activity but as regards his body. The whole man went up, God taking him "And Enoch walked with God after he had begotten Methushelah three hundred years", Genesis 5:22. That would be on moral lines in view of having a family. Then we have in verse 24, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him"; that is, God was evidently pleased with his walk. "He has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5. So that the walk must have constituted him as morally fit for translation.
J.A.P. In connection with the first scripture read in Genesis 3:20 - 24, which states that Adam could not partake of the tree of life, what change came in between the time which that scripture refers to and the time contemplated in Revelation 2:7, where the overcomer is allowed to eat of the tree of life?
J.T. Redemption had taken place. The epistle to the Romans develops the gospel, showing how the judgment of God on man is met, and eternal life in Christ made available to man. The truth ministered in the epistle to the Ephesians goes beyond Romans, involving "the whole counsel of God". The tree of life in the paradise of God is included in this; that is, as we have already noted, life answering to the purpose of God. Hence the appropriateness of the promise to the overcomer at Ephesus.
E.McK. What is involved in the thought of "all living", Genesis 3:20. Is that the new order of man?
J.T. The Spirit of God would have that in mind. Statements in Genesis often have a root character, their import increasing as carried forward by the Spirit. Genesis 3:20, to which you refer, may be regarded in this way. Adam undoubtedly alluded to the woman's seed as seen in verse 15. Much is made of motherhood in the family of faith in Genesis, and it is enlarged upon in later scriptures. Hannah and Mary are outstanding examples of motherhood in the true sense. Israel and the assembly are viewed in Scripture as mothers, Revelation 12:1, 2; Galatians 4:26. As to the "living", Hezekiah says, "The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day" (Isaiah 38:19); and the Psalms allude to life in a spiritual sense. Evidently God intended Genesis 3:20 as basic instruction as to life over against the sentence of death pronounced on man. "For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive", 1 Corinthians 15:22.
R.W.S. Is the way to the knowledge of this on moral lines? I refer to man calling his wife's name "Eve" because she is the mother of all living; and Jehovah Elohim saying, "Behold, Man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (verse 22). Does this then involve the whole moral question being dealt with before any knowledge of purpose can be enjoyed?
J.T. That is what I thought we might see; that Romans shows life being reached through death; so that I would take verses 20 and 21 as over against the remaining part of the chapter. Thus Adam in calling his wife's name Eve because she is the mother of all living must be taken as prophetic. Whether the "because" was used by Adam or whether the Spirit of God added it as enlarging on the truth involved, we have to regard it as a sequence. The New Translation has "is the mother of all living". She was nobody's mother yet, so that it is prophetic. The facts recorded show that Jehovah Elohim regarded Adam as having light. God had pronounced sentence on him, but Adam did not allude to the sentence; he alluded to his wife and called her Eve, which means life. God must have anticipated his faith, because He had given him some basis for his naming his wife Eve in the fact that He had said that her seed would bruise the serpent's head. That would have been in Adam's mind. And then verse 21 would mean that God took account of what was in Adam. What would he be worth if there was not light in his soul? If he were just a bit of clay going back to his mother earth, of what value would he be to God or even to himself? But then we have to clothe these words with New Testament light. There was something in Adam. He does not head the list of faith in the New Testament, but surely Jehovah would take account of the name he gave his wife, when He had said that "in dying thou shalt die" (marginal reading, chapter 2: 17). The sentence was pronounced. How did Adam carry definitely in his mind the thought of life? God surely would then take more account of what we are saying now than we do. And then He clothed him with skins, as much as to say, this is the principle. It is very small, and somewhat vague, but this is the principle on which the tree of life will ultimately come into use again. In the meantime,
Jehovah regards Adam as outwardly under death; just as a natural man, and as he can use his hand, he might use it to partake of the tree of life: "Lest he stretch out his hand", which is often the case with men now. So God says, "Lest he stretch out his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever ... !" You will notice there is an exclamation point, as if God would say, What an awful thing that would be; as if much more could be said -- that men should appropriate what belongs to God in a natural way adding to themselves through it. So then it is said, "Therefore Jehovah Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. And he drove out Man; and he set the Cherubim, and the flame of the flashing sword, toward the east of the garden of Eden, to guard the way to the tree of life" (verse 24). We have to leave this for a later time, but in the meantime the principle of life as overcoming death has come into evidence.
A.N.W. In saying the tree of life is a primary thought, are you differentiating between its fruit and its leaves, as the leaves adapt themselves to the wounds of the nations?
J.T. Yes. There is no evidence that the fruits are brought outside the city. Revelation 22:14 shows that one who washes his robes has a right to go in and partake of the tree of life. The twelve manner of fruits would mean that the heavenly city is viewed as in relation to time; it is an administrative time and its own life is mentioned as if it were in that time, men partaking of the twelve manner of fruits; because clearly those who form the heavenly city are not there idly. We are to be there administratively and need food to maintain a heavenly constitution for administration in relation to the millennial world. But in itself the city belongs to heaven and eternity.
A.R. Have you in mind that the tree of life has
been held in reserve; that is, that the tree has been reserved in relation to purpose, whereas life as seen in Romans can be enjoyed as we are here in responsibility?
J.T. Yes; life as mentioned in relation to Eve. That would be the clue. It is an element brought in in relation to the penalty on Adam, as if God were to speak of it from another point of view. As Judge, He pronounced the sentence without any mitigation; but as God, according to what He is, He thought of His creature in relation to what he said to Eve. That is what I would take it to be. He is regarding Adam now according to what he said of Eve after the pronouncement of judgment. If Adam were rebellious and upbraiding God for such a severe sentence, it would be different. But he is not even speaking of it; he is speaking of his wife and that she is the mother of all living. God valued that; faith was there and in principle that opened up the great matter of redemption.
A.MacN. It does seem remarkable that Adam should say this; that is, he said it of himself. Faith was there and God always addresses Himself to that, would you say?
J.T. Yes. The life he had was forfeited, as expressed in the divine pronouncement. There is no hope at all in God's words expressing the judgment; but the fact that Adam did not rest on those words or upbraid his wife for having misled him, but spoke of her as the mother of all living, shows that light came into his soul. So that life now has to be taken account of in another way; that is, as coming in through death. It would come in through the seed of the woman already spoken of.
A.B.P. Is the thought of travail significant; that life now must be reached through that severity of exercise?
J.T. Yes; no doubt that enters into it. Why
Adam should speak about his wife in relation to life immediately after the terrible sentence is what we should especially think of. It indicated the state of Adam's soul; that there was reaction to light. And that is a principle of general importance -- that whether, as something is suggested to us in the way of light, there is any reaction to it; and I think verse 20 is reaction to light that God furnished.
C.N. Do you think there is any link between the clothing in this chapter and the eating of the flesh of animals by Noah in chapter 9?
J.T. Well, I suppose that would be an expansion. What we had here yesterday should be of general help; that Genesis is the seed plot. The seed is usually small, but its fruit is usually large; meaning that there is increase as you go on, and thus when we come to Genesis 9, we find animal food given to man. There is no suggestion of it in the skins, but the skins implied that death had taken place. It may be said, however, that in Abel's offering there was the idea of food. God introduces in Noah a further thought. Much is made of life, even of the animals, in Genesis 9. God is claiming that these creatures, although they may seem just to go down into the earth, yet their blood which is their life is His.
C.N. I was thinking of what you said -- that although the tree of life is barred, yet the thought of life through death is maintained in the skins. Is the expansion, as you say, in the eating of the flesh?
J.T. Yes. The tree of life was not debarred from Adam, according to chapter 2; but now it is, and I suppose it is kept for "its own time"; and I believe Ephesians is the time when the full thought comes out as to the counsel of God. It is after this counsel is stated that we have redemption mentioned: "in whom we have redemption through his blood", Ephesians 1:7.
F.S.C. The tree of life is mentioned a number of
times in Proverbs. Is it a different thought there?
J.T. It is just a tree of life; a figure. No doubt the words allude to Genesis, but it is the tree of life here. There is only one. It has the article always.
G.V.D. Would it be right to connect the clothing with Romans: "Righteousness of God is revealed therein, on the principle of faith, to faith: according as it is written, But the just shall live by faith", Romans 1:17?
J.T. Yes. It is a revelation. But the position of the tree of life should be distinguished from this. It appeared before sin came in, and it is seen in Revelation 22 as in the city, which certainly must be regarded as outside of the scene and area of sin. It is a sinless state of things, because it comes down from God out of heaven, as if it were indigenous there. The fruits of the tree seem clearly to be for the inhabitants of the city. The leaves are carried out. This implies that grace is active in the heavenly city in view of the effects of sin still existing.
J.S. Would the greatness of God's work be seen in Adam's being able to call Eve the mother of all living?
J.T. Yes; we bring Romans into this verse just to make it clear. Then as regards food in that connection, it is introduced in 1 Corinthians, in the Lord's supper. And so also John 6. The bread there is for the life of the world, and this extends to millennial times, so that the nations will have food; but John 6 is distinct from the tree of life.
A.A.T. This tree produces a different kind of fruit each month. What does that suggest?
J.T. It is in relation to the millennial service, in which we all, as of the heavenly city, shall be engaged. Of Adam it is said, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread", Genesis 3:19. That will not be in the millennium. The millennial saints will have their own food. We will have our heavenly food, only I
think the reference to time, that is, the months of the year, would mean that the heavenly saints are for the moment occupied with the renewed earth in an administrative way and this brings them into time. I do not think the twelve monthly fruits will go into eternity. The months will stop: there is no time there.
A.B.P. Does it contemplate that there will be freshness and variety in the expression of life in this administration?
J.T. I would think that. We are supported in our heavenly service even as we are now, because we eat the heavenly food now; the old corn of the land is heavenly food. It belongs to heaven.
J.T.Jr. Is there a progression in the scriptures you have suggested; that is, first in Adam; then in Seth; then in Enosh? Is there a point reached in Enoch that we should come to?
J.T. That is what I thought. Enoch is said to be the seventh from Adam. That would be through Seth; not through Cain. So Enoch would probably take account of what Jehovah did for Adam, and learn from it; that is, he would be the seventh lineally, but also, as we may say, educationally; that is, through discipline, as a learner. He would look back on the past and take account of what happened and what God did with others. That is how we all should learn; so that this is the climax in the antediluvian world from the heavenly side, and Noah is the continuance of things. I thought we might just see what the testimony as to life was in the antediluvian world, for that is the period we are dealing with. It is much longer, perhaps, than most of us realise. It would be nearly as long as our own dispensation, and yet it is recorded in about six chapters; but there is a testimony of life in it. "The world that then was ... perished", but that world had testimony of life rendered to it.
A.N.W. Is the instruction in connection with Seth in the fact that he calls his son Enosh?
J.T. Yes. He is the one man that clearly saw what the sentence was. He is taking account of the sentence on Adam, his father, and he is calling his son by a name that indicates that he understands and is accepting it, and thus light is shining, because "people began to call on the name of Jehovah", at that point.
F.N.W. There are two trees in chapter 3. Does the tree of life stand as a secret in the believer's soul? Satan seems to be acquainted with the first tree, but the other, being part of God's purpose, Satan is unfamiliar with it. Satan had attacked the churches in Revelation as he had attacked Adam in relation to the forbidden tree, but the tree of life seems to be something he is not in the secret of.
J.T. Just so. As we have said, "the whole counsel of God" is made known in the ministry to the saints at Ephesus.
R.W.S. It would appear that these men in the antediluvian world who had light were on the alert to discover some little intimation from God about life.
J.T. Quite so. We can understand how Enoch in his walk with God would enquire from Him and be taught by Him. I think that is indicated in Seth, and then fully seen in Enoch, because he is spoken of as the seventh from Adam. Only Jude mentions that, and evidently he implies that Enoch was a learner. He is also the only one that tells us that Enoch was a prophet. He would be qualified for prophetic service as taught of God, involving instruction gained by observation of others who had experience with God before him, and from contemporary history, too; corruption in his own times would be known to him and would enter into his prophetic announcement of evil in the last days.
He speaks also of the Lord coming with the holy myriads to execute judgment against them.
C.N. Would he also illustrate, as the seventh, the fulness or completion of life in that he was not, for God took him?
J.T. Yes. Enoch is a witness to eternal life entered into on moral lines, not as partaking of the tree of life. By the power of God, death was overcome in him. He walked with God, we may say, in connection with his family; that is, as Methushelah was born. No doubt he had observed that other earlier families were not doing well. He would know something about Cain's family and the world around him, and as his son was born he walked with God. The evidence is clear that his walk had a moral bearing; that he was thinking of his family; other children were born to him. So that in his walk with God there was testimony that he pleased God. Then a second time we have it stated that he walked with God; "and he was not, for God took him" (verse 24). Hebrews 11 says, "... and was not found, because God had translated him" (verse 5). The Spirit of God brings that in. It suggests that his absence would be noticed. Where is Enoch? That will happen in our own case presently. But then there is another thing added as we already remarked, that he should not see death, which shows there is some way other than the tree of getting back to the idea of life. Enoch did not come under Adam's penalty. This implies "the redemption that is in Christ Jesus". That was foreshadowed in the skins of the animals by which Adam and Eve were clothed.
J.T.Jr. So that the question of good and evil was also paramount at that time. Does it not run down to our own times, and work out in Romans?
J.T. It must have been worked out in measure in Enoch's case, because he walked with God; and Romans teaches us to walk in newness of life. In
Leviticus those animals that divide the hoof typify the discrimination between good and evil in believers. I mean to say these germs of light and truth in the antediluvian world become larger and larger as God proceeds with His testimony, and when we come to Leviticus, we have the creatures that divide the hoof. Adam, I think, would not name them because of the divided hoof, because the idea of walk was not so much there, but the idea of walk is stressed in Enoch. God would notice that he divided the hoof; that is, he discriminated between good and evil in his walk; he kept in the clean paths.
R.W.S. There was the way to the tree of life that was guarded by the Cherubim and the flame of the flashing sword. Would you suggest that there was a way back to the tree of life in the suggestion of the way back in the antediluvian world?
J.T. The teaching as to life in these chapters, as we have seen, relates to the gospel. What intervenes between the barring of the tree of life to man and his permission to partake of it, is how God met sin, bringing in life through death. "It became him", Hebrews 2:10. That is the great lesson for us; the moral side. The Cherubim kept the way until Christ became Man; and even when He was here, before He died, the way was not made. He had to lay down His life. The way back was through death. But whether He was the tree of life as here below, or whether it is Christ as indigenous to heaven and known there in its own environment, is a question to think over.
A.P.T. John the baptist had great light in speaking of the Lord Jesus as the Lamb of God; the sacrificial side as taking away the sin of the world; and then in the next paragraph he goes further in the apprehension of the Person. I was wondering whether this linked with Genesis and Leviticus as to the walk of certain creatures.
J.T. Yes. How far he did go in his remarks! John said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29), also that He is the Son of God (verse 34). The Son of God is a title that largely alludes to Christ's undertakings; what He does. So John witnesses to that: "I have seen and borne witness that this is the Son of God" (verse 34). He baptised with the Holy Spirit. The Lord in chapter 3 says, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal" (verse 14). The allusion there is not to the tree of life, but life. It is rather meeting sin here. But then the passage goes on to say, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal" (verse 16). That is God's gift. God's love is expressed in that. But then the Lord said earlier, "And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven" (verse 13). Notice "who is in heaven". Well, what is in that for us? I believe it is where we come in -- the heavenly side of the truth. All He says about eternal life takes place here on earth in meeting sin in man; but when He says, "No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven", we have something beyond the earthly dispensation altogether; He is touching eternity in heaven. His own inherent place is there. So in chapter 6, where He treats of life and Himself as coming down here so that men should have life, that is not the tree of life. He goes on to say, "If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?" John 6:62. "Where he was before", points, I believe, to the assembly's place, the assembly is wrapped up in all that; so that it comes down from God out of heaven.
A.R. What you say helps us to understand the
idea of the tree of life as compared with eternal life. It has been often said that eternal life is for man here, but, according to what you have been saying, the tree of life is up there.
J.T. It is indigenous to heaven, and only celestial beings have part in it. It is our food.
J.T.Jr. Paul also says, "But if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer", 2 Corinthians 5:16. Is that what you have in mind? The tree of life evidently alludes to Him where He is.
J.T. Yes. "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God" (verses 17, 18). That is our eternal portion.
A.P.T. So in John 3 the Lord further says, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe?" (verse 12). Do you think the situation in that chapter indicates that Nicodemus and those with him were not ready for this great thought of the Son of man who was in heaven?
J.T. They were not. Nicodemus did not follow the Lord in the very initial things that he should have known from the Old Testament. He remained with the Council, because heavenly things did not come into his soul. John the baptist did go on to the heavenly thought; not that he belonged to the heavenly family properly, but he grasped the thought. The Lord's word in verse 12, quoted already, is in the plural -- "ye". It refers to the ordinary Jewish state of mind.
A.B.P. Do you have the way of the tree of life in John's gospel in His words, "I am the way and the truth and the life"?
A.N.W. As to finding the way, have you any
thought as to why the fat is stressed in Abel's offerings? There is no mention of the blood.
J.T. It certainly opens up quite a subject as to the offerings. Cain did not have a death-offering; he had a meat-offering. But it was useless because it was not preceded by an offering through death. Abel had such an offering without a meat-offering, and he was accepted. He evidently had a great appreciation of the fat which involves the excellence of the offering. It alludes to the fulness of excellence in Christ as offered to God.
A.N.W. I thought that it was striking that his faith should stress the fat.
J.T. It looks as if the Spirit of God puts these touches in Scripture for us as learners. Enoch learned through all these things, and we may as well learn because the intent is that we should partake of disciplinary education as Enoch did.
A.A.T. All the families of God will have life, but is there something special for christians in the way of life?
J.T. Clearly; the word to the Ephesian overcomer is suggestive: "I will give to him to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God", chapter 2: 7. It is obviously special and as promised to an overcomer at Ephesus, where the whole counsel of God was made known; it points to the heavenly portion of the assembly.
E.McK. What is the thought in Luke 15 where the father speaks of the son as having come to life, and being clothed with what is brought out of the house?
J.T. Well, he is alive again. The gentile is in mind. It would mean that God had begun to work in the gentile world. "Because this thy brother was dead, and has come to life again, and was lost and has been found" (verse 32). He has come to life.
But then there is more than that in the passage; that is, he has the best robe.
E.McK. That is what I was thinking. The best robe is brought out. You were speaking about what was indigenous to heaven.
J.T. Yes; it is the heavenly side from Luke's point of view. The elder brother was invited to come in to the house but the best robe was placed on the prodigal who is the gentile, viewed in Paul's ministry.
A.R. Then we can enjoy eternal life now in the sphere of responsibility, and eternal life will also be enjoyed in the millennium, but there is something beyond either according to what you had in mind.
J.T. I think that is plain. Let the Scriptures themselves speak. The Lord says, "These shall go away ... into eternal life", Matthew 25:46. That is the saved nations. They do not go into heaven; they go into eternal life. It is an order of things established down here. I would not separate it from what we are speaking of, because there is a link. What is going to become of all the millennial saints? They are viewed at the outset as in flesh and blood condition, but they are not going to remain thus. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom", 1 Corinthians 15:50. So that enjoying eternal life in flesh and blood condition is a peculiar victory of God. Satan might say that you cannot make an ordinary man have eternal life. But God says that He can; even a man like Adam; that is, by converting him inwardly and giving him light so that he sees the second Man. Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and he saw it and was glad. The millennial world will in principle be of the order of Christ. They go into eternal life. It does not say they go into heaven; it is what is established down here, but then what will become of them afterwards? Scripture is silent as to actual words, but inferentially they must partake of
the heavenly in some sense; taking on spiritual bodies, no doubt in a family by themselves. They never form part of the assembly, but they serve to give God the victory as to this matter of meeting death, that He can bring in life in the kind of persons, physically, that sinned.
F.S.C. Are the leaves of the tree of life medicinal to bring this about?
J.T. I would say that. That is a good word -- medicinal, because they are for healing. It will not fail like many medicines that are now used; they shall be healed.
J.A.P. Can the tree of life be enjoyed by us individually apart from the assembly? Is the overcomer individual?
J.T. Yes. The book of Revelation contemplates declension. The assembly, seen in Ephesus, has failed and judgment is threatened. This is definitely imposed on Thyatira. Thus there is no promise made to the responsible body. The need of overcoming is contemplated as to each assembly. Overcoming is really the ground on which promises are made. So that partaking of the tree of life is open to any one that is an overcomer. It is given; you do not attain to it; the Lord gives it to the overcomer.
A.N.W. The apostle says to Timothy, "Lay hold of eternal life" -- is that another side of the matter?
J.T. It has a present application; it is an exhortation. The reference is to eternal life, not the tree of life. It has been described, "an out-of-the-world heavenly condition of relationship and being in which eternal life exists". That is the present provisional form of it. You are still in flesh and blood, hence urged to lay hold of eternal life.
J.T.Jr. Is that not suggested in Enoch's walking with God? Is that not the point, you have God and man together?
J.T. It is said by the Lord that eternal life is to
know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He had sent; John 17:3. This, in principle, is seen in Enoch.
A.B.P. Is Enoch very much like the overcomer in the church? The whole public system is about to be spued out, so to speak, and he is preserved from even seeing death.
J.T. He is a good model. If we are to get the gain of the early men of faith, we must read about them and enquire of the Lord what is meant. The Spirit of God mentions just what we need. He could mention much more. What unwritten history Enoch must have had!
A.P.T. Does Enoch's life correspond with John in the book of Revelation? Up to the end of chapter 3, he is in Patmos and then in chapter 4 he is said to be taken up to heaven. They might ask. Where is he? Is that what is on your mind?
J.T. Quite so; but the "in the midst" chapters are to be noted -- the Lord walking in the midst of the assemblies. In chapter 4 it is what is in heaven; but it is not the tree of life exactly. It is in view of what is down here. All God's judicial dealings are contemplated in relation to the throne in heaven.
A.MacN. Perhaps there is some connection between the first psalm and what has come before us in relation to the tree of life. The one who walks perfectly there could only be the Lord Jesus; but He is like a tree planted by the brooks of water. I was wondering whether that has any connection with what is before us.
J.T. There is some connection. It has often been noticed that the first psalm is what Christ is morally; the second psalm is what He is officially; and these two psalms cover the whole five books. "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, and standeth not in the way of sinners, and sitteth not in the seat of scorners ... . And he is as a
tree planted by the brooks of water, which giveth its fruit in its season, and whose leaf fadeth not; and all that he doeth prospereth" (verses 1 - 3). All this, whilst applicable to Christ, is not Christ as the tree of life but what He was morally down here, and even what any saint might be in measure, because that is the idea of the psalm. The tree of life is not down here. It is indigenous to heaven. The paradise of God is above. It is not down here on earth at all.
Genesis 5:28 - 32; Genesis 6:1 - 3, 9 - 14; Genesis 7:6 - 10
J.T. At our last meeting we looked at certain passages in Genesis, beginning with chapter 3 and going on to chapter 5, with the thought of considering life in the antediluvian world and it is thought now that we should look further into that section of Scripture, especially to see how the energy of life appears at the end of that dispensation. The hope is that we may see in these chapters the strenuousness of the experience of Noah and others, as the dispensation at that time was ending; the belief being that there is a correspondence in all the closings of dispensations. They are usually marked by remnants, and a remnant involves weakness; the very weakness, however, occasioning dependence on God, which He never fails to answer to. The present moment corresponds in regard of this dispensation. We have come to an extraordinary part of it -- toward the end. It is requiring great energy -- on the part of the nations and correspondingly on the part of those that are of the assembly -- to keep up with its exigencies. There is usually something that corresponds, between current history among the nations and what God is doing in the assembly.
We dwelt on chapter 5 last time in relation to Enoch, who represents the heavenly side of the truth. Energy is not stressed in him especially, but discipline; the result of discipline and education; so that he becomes fitted for translation. But Noah's position and service contemplate the need of energy. Great things outwardly are to be done; great difficulties are to be overcome. So that it is thought that thus we may see life in him and others with him, operating in a strenuous way as meeting existing conditions.
These conditions were made plain by God to him. Noah was taken up by God as righteous and was honoured by Him; and God entered into covenant with him because He had confidence in him, and all the divine requirements were met in every instance. It is a question first of all of obedience and the strength needed for that, which God supplies.
A.B.P. Is there a link between Noah and Enoch in that both are said to have walked with God?
J.T. Yes; you might say they graduated from the same school, one leading heavenward and the other through the judgment.
C.A.M. As far as we are concerned are these two lines going on concurrently?
J.T. Yes; qualifications for translation, and then the need of meeting current conditions. These two great thoughts run together.
A.N.W. Is your thought tonight life in the energy of it?
J.T. Yes; in the energy of it at the end of a dispensation. It will be noted that Noah's father was Lemech, whose name indicates violence, corresponding with the line of Cain in which there was also a Lemech who killed a man. He was violent according to his name and practised polygamy, in connection with whom it is first mentioned. But he acknowledged his fault and spoke of vengeance both on account of Cain and on account of himself, pointing to the Jews who are to be avenged, although themselves wild and wandering. At the present time they are cruelly interfered with, but this will be avenged on their persecutors. Whereas the Lemech of the life line -- that is, the line of Seth -- whilst energetic and violent, would be so in a spiritual sense, because he had peace and rest in his mind, not disturbance. He was a son of peace, so that he calls his son's name Noah, and gives the reason: "This one shall comfort us concerning our work and concerning the toil of our hands,
because of the ground which Jehovah has cursed", Genesis 5:29. Clearly he is spiritual, but evidently violent, if necessary, against evil, to bring about a state of rest.
A.R. Perhaps he had in mind a little of the idea of the millennium -- the thought of repose.
J.T. Yes; and "the ground"; he had the ground in his mind: "... because of the ground which Jehovah has cursed". The millennium would answer to this. It is a dispensational thought in this respect. The same thing applies now, because we are at the end of the dispensation, as Lemech was. He died before the flood came. He was intelligent, looking on to another and more glorious time when the curse would be removed, so that he names his son in view of this. The others in the line of Seth are not always mentioned in that way, as being formally named, but Noah is formally named by his father and the reason for it given, showing he had the right thought; the thoughts of God were in his mind.
J.S. Does the flood come in as a necessity?
J.T. Quite so; it purged the earth. Lemech had the ground in his mind, and God also had it in His mind, that there should be seed-time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night while the earth remained; Genesis 8:22.
F.S.C. Noah lived in two dispensations. How do you regard his life in the second dispensation?
J.T. He is the head of another world; he goes through; he is a type of Christ as the Head of another world; not the one he was primarily in. According to what God says of him he is already head morally. We get his history; his is one of the ten histories mentioned in Genesis, showing how important he is. The word 'history' here means origin; what he developed out of.
R.W.S. Does the thought of personality enter into Lemech's naming of Noah? "This one shall
comfort us concerning our work and concerning the toil of our hands". There were so few in the presence of myriads of ungodly persons. Is it what God can do with one man?
J.T. That is a good way to put it. The demonstrative pronoun points to one that is outstanding, and he fulfils the prophetic suggestion accurately: "He shall comfort us". The "us" is the remnant. There were very few of them. The word 'few' is applied to them by Peter.
C.N. Does the name Noah show that God takes account of the exigencies which the remnant must yet pass through and provides beforehand for it?
J.T. This scripture provides for them, and they will value it as they begin to get light. The word 'comfort' comes down to us, too. God is said to be the God of comfort. So that there is provision, and it is in the midst of remnant conditions, because we are told immediately that the enemy had found an open door amongst men through their daughters. Chapter 6 stresses this terrible fact. There is very little made of the feminine side in this section. We get no examples of anything good. Noah's wife and three daughters-in-law are mentioned, of course, but nothing special is said of them. The requirements of the position are most onerous because the vessel which had to be constructed was relatively very large.
A.A.T. Are the sons of God, mentioned in chapter 6, angels?
J.T. Yes; I suppose the designation would not mean anything more than that they had that status at one time, but morally lost it; they still retained it, as many now retain the name 'christian' and yet are unreal; so that it would be satanic work.
C.A.M. Do you not think it is remarkable that God is clarifying the idea of sonship at the end of the time?
J.T. Yes; I think God allows things at times to
get into wrong hands so as to stress and clarify them in recovering them. The designation amongst men is first used by Cain and then we have its use here applied to these fallen beings. Today God is enlarging on this great thought, which belongs to His counsels. "Having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself", Ephesians 1:5. It had been used among men, but its fulness awaited the incarnation of Christ. In Him it appears gloriously enhanced in every way as expressed in a divine Person.
J.S. God magnified it as He brought Israel out of Egypt. "Let my son go".
J.T. Just so. The negative side in Egypt is that Pharaoh's son is to be killed. God said to Pharaoh, "Let my son go, that he may serve me. And if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will kill thy son, thy firstborn", Exodus 4:23. God did kill Pharaoh's son, but Israel was let go.
J.T.Jr. Is Cain's world seen in chapter 6?
J.T. I should think the whole population of the ancient world were corrupted. This chapter says so "And Jehovah repented that he had made Man on the earth, and it grieved him in his heart. And Jehovah said, I will destroy Man, whom I have created, from the earth -- from man to cattle, to creeping things, and to fowl of the heavens; for I repent that I have made them" (verse 6). The whole earth was affected. "And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was full of violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth" (verse 11). Practically all were affected, but the man that God was going to use is of the line of Seth.
H.G.H. Is the question there that the energy of true life cannot belong to this world at all?
J.T. That is the thing to learn. Enoch set the pace in walking with God three hundred years. That
was a good long time as a testimony, and incidentally, he prophesied. We are not told in the Old Testament that he did so, but we are in the New. He prophesied of wicked men, but also of the "holy myriads"; so that Enoch's walk and testimony generally were practical and effective. "He has the testimony that he pleased God". Our testimony is largely a question of our walk with God.
A.R. Is the idea that one man walked with God and then he was translated? Do you think that Lemech and Noah would be affected by Enoch's walk so that Noah goes into another world through death?
J.T. Just so; it is expressly stated in the New Testament that Enoch did not see death. It does not, however, say that here.
R.W.S. Are mixed marriages in principle like the early part of chapter 6, and are not such marriages serious matters of concern in our times?
J.T. They are one of the most difficult problems we have to cope with. Some are quite defiant about it, so that we have to be "violent" like Lemech in dealing with them; violent spiritually. There are things that unspiritual people become urgent about and they ridicule you if you object; and among these are marriages not "in the Lord". The testimony of Lemech helps us in meeting this evil; his name, which, as we have said, suggests violence in a spiritual sense, combined with his pronouncement as to Noah, affords effective material for such conflict.
J.T.Jr. Would the years of his life be suggestive? The number contains three sevens -- seven hundred and seventy-seven.
J.T. Yes. He died five years before his father. It is important to know that he died before the flood; so did Methushelah; God saw to that. They were not translated to heaven, but they were taken out of the way. Of some it is recorded later that they were taken out of the way to escape the terribleness of
coming conditions. Noah and his house were taken through the deluge. But for all others it was such a death! Such an appalling magnitude of horror! A whole world of persons overwhelmed and destroyed irretrievably! And Noah had to face all this as with God. With the exercises and responsibility of a man who walked with God and with whom God had entered into covenant relation, charging him to prepare the ark of salvation, what a burden he must have carried!
A.A.T. If the Spirit were not present, would we not have the same condition today?
J.T. Yes; as soon as the Spirit, involving the assembly, leaves, conditions will rapidly become dreadful. The Lord's own discourse to His disciples indicates a terrible time.
A.N.W. He definitely likens it to the days of Noah before the flood; Luke 17:26, 27.
J.T. To the day that Noah entered into the ark these things went on.
A.B.P. When you refer to the strenuousness of the times and the great energy that is needed, do you have in mind the building of the ark accompanied by Noah's ministry?
J.T. I do; I was just remarking as to what an undertaking it was. They are building ships rapidly now, but as a rule big ships take a long time to build, but think of what Noah had to contend with! There had not been the like even suggested as far as we know. Here is a vessel about four hundred and fifty feet long and about seventy-five feet wide and about forty-five feet high. Well, where is Noah going to get all these materials? Who are his helpers? Are they sympathetic? Peter comments, "While the ark was preparing". It was a protracted and arduous matter; and that is where the longsuffering of God shone. Noah was suffering, but God was longsuffering!THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (2)
THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (3)
THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (4)
THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (5)
"And see! the Spirit's power
Has ope'd the heav'nly door,
Has brought us to that favoured hour
When toil shall all be o'er". (Hymn 74)THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (6)
THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (7)
THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (8)