Ezekiel 47:1 - 9

I rose to speak of experience. Our brother who has just prayed said to the Lord that He was always ready to be with us -- and He is. We can speak experimentally of this. One can say truthfully that he hardly recalls the time in which he has been with the brethren, as we are now, when he has not proved the Lord with us. This is a matter of experience, and experience is one of the elements of guidance. Only this very day, speaking with brethren at the house of our brother near by here, certain questions arose as to procedure in assembly service, and it occurred to me that experience helps us in regard to assembly service. There are certain methods and forms that are prescribed, others are left, but, according to the principles of Matthew, the Lord saying, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age" (Matthew 28:20) is honouring the assembly, as if He had confidence in her and assures her that He is with her. He is with us, even saying "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them"; (Matthew 18:20) then again, "If two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them …" (Matthew 18:19). And so, much is left to us, within certain latitudes or limits, for the Lord loves to think of us and to look on us as moving according to what He has made us, according to the instincts He has given us, and, of course, according to His teaching and the examples He has set. And all this involves experience, which affords guidance to a point as to methods amongst us, experience enabling us to prove what may be the best; and I have selected this chapter in Ezekiel, well known to us, but read now in view of what has been remarked. Ezekiel treats,

among other things, of life and he affords us an example of an experience of life. The thought of life is full in Ezekiel, which could be shown from the pages of the prophet, and it reminds is of what the Lord said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it abundantly", (John 10:10). Hence the great advantage of experiencing life and proving how abundantly it is.

So I have read this chapter because it affords an experience of life, what is said of the river indicates that wherever it moves it brings life, and another thing about it is that, as the prophet has experience in the river, indicating whence it comes and the way by which it flows and the point to which it flows, he shows that it affords life, and instead of one river it becomes a double one, as verse 9 tells us, showing that, as we move on in experience in what is afforded to us through the death and resurrection and ascension of Christ -- that is to say, what is in Christianity, we prove that, as the Lord says, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it abundantly" (John 10:10). So that we need not fear, dear brethren. Much has happened that might cause us to fear, but from the positive side there I nothing to fear. We shall always come out victorious, but increasingly so. Hence in these verses the prophet, as most of us here know, had experience first of the river covering his ankles. It is a question of experience, and experience implying certain parts of the body which are intended to be active, to afford activity, as in the book of Acts the man at the gate of the temple his has ankle bones affected, so that he walked and he leaped and he praised God. That involved, not only his ankles, but his knees -- indeed his whole body. The human body is made in that sense to be used. But the ankles are noted here in the experience in the river. It says, "And he brought me out by the way of the gate

northward" (Ezekiel 47:2). If we are conversant with the significance of the points of the compass, this would suggest to us what is severe; it becomes known, the north wind and the effect of it, and then it is said, "When the man went forth eastward, a line was in his hand; and he measured a thousand cubits, and he caused me to pass through the waters: the waters were to the ankles. And he measured a thousand cubits, and caused me to pass through the waters: the waters were to the knees" (Ezekiel 47:3 - 4).

One might speak much of these points, but one only desires to be concise and brief, as we should be at these meetings, affording something, even if it is but one point brought home to us. And so knees surely points to severe exercise, especially in regard of prayer, as we see with Elijah -- he put his face between his knees, and we know the result, how the cloud was seen rising like a man's hand. I am only just referring to this one point. "For this reason", says Paul, "I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 3:14). That is a second experience -- the ankles first, and then the knees, the second. And then again afterwards "he measured a thousand and caused me to pass through: the waters were to the lions". We may, in speaking thus, refer to anatomy -- of which one knows but little, but there is such a thing as spiritual anatomy, and so the Lord Jesus, speaking reverently, says, "A body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5), and again we read, "Many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many" (Matthew 27:52). We can see the importance of our bodies, and the Lord is going to bring us up out of our graves in bodies, and not only bodies in an ordinary sense, but bodies like unto His glorious body, His body of glory. One feels affected in speaking thus, dear brethren, because it reminds us

of what is coming, and the portion of the saints in our high places and walking in our high places then and even now in a spiritual sense. And then too -- something that has now been before us already lately -- the Lord appearing to certain ones. It would be Himself, just Himself, but in His body. Then it is said further, "And he measured a thousand: it was a river that I could not pass through" (Ezekiel 47:5). Thus we learn what is beyond us by experience, and we do well to be governed by the sense of limitation that we cannot just speak of everything as if it were common; there is such a thing as mystery, which we should learn and be subject to and say we do not know at times, and not venture to explain everything. Here the waters were risen -- and they are apt to rise in the principle of which it is spoken of here. And I think they are rising -- to be very simple -- and it would be wholesome if we learnt that we are limited by the rise and that we cannot compass things, that we have to bow and regard everything reverently, and yet be in the sense of liberty, not overcome. But we find here the prophet says, "It was a river that I could not pass through" (Ezekiel 47:5) -- not "that could not be passed through", but that "I could not pass through". That would indicate the limitations of the creature. And so he goes on, "For the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed through". That spells limitation, not only for Ezekiel, but for all, for every creature -- it could not be passed over. Well, it is well to have an experience like that, finding out that you cannot pass over, that you are limited, that others are going through, and that we do well to learn our limitations. Hence the apostle in Ephesians speaks of the breadth and the length and the depth and the height. All that speaks of limitation, but what blessed limitation, and we have the addition "and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses

knowledge" (Ephesians 3:19) -- which cannot be passed through. I do not refer to it in this way as if it is presented just as I am saying, but it is really implied that the love of Christ is known -- "to know the love of the Christ" -- that is within the range of a Christian, of all of us, and how much it is needed -- to know the love of Christ. John says, "Hereby we have known love because he has laid down his life for us", (1 John 3:16); but then it is the love of Christ which passeth knowledge. It is an experience and an experience that one would urge on all and on oneself, the idea of knowing the love of Christ. The brethren from the beginning of Christianity have known the love of Christ. Paul could say, "Who has loved me …" (Galatians 2:20). I do not know that anyone else says just that, but he says it -- He "loved me", not that He 'loves me', but He "loved me". Of course it implies that He loves me, but the point is what is historical, that experience had been in Christianity from the outset; Peter could say it no doubt, but Paul says it. "Waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed through".

Then I just wish to touch on another thing, which I think is important for us on this point of experience. Brothers and sisters may learn, or have it before them to learn, by experience. It is in the limits of guidance; you know so-and-so because you have experience. Of course you may say, 'I have proved it and I know scripture teaches it', but then there are things that are not formally taught, and so the need of experience as one said, "I have been young" -- he had that experience -- "and now am old!;" he did not speak of middle age, he spoke of old age; and he had not seen certain things, and that fact was a guide to him. That is what I am speaking about. So here in verse 6 someone is saying something to Ezekiel -- which is another point that is to be expected and looked for and found as we look for it -- that is someone who

says something. He says it of himself, and he is not asked; one who say things because it is important they should be said -- as we might say, a word from the Lord, but it is rather that this man was saying it. "He said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this?" (Ezekiel 47:6). Another thing is that "Son of man" is a remarkable expression. We have already together here spoken of man, what a place man has with God, and how Wisdom -- which is another suggestion -- says "My delights were with the sons of men" (Proverbs 8:31). There is something very beautiful in that suggestion -- the "sons of men"; sons, but sons of men. Angels are called sons of God, I suppose in a provisional sense -- "all the sons of God shouted for joy" (Job 38:7). But Wisdom does not say her delights were with the sons of God, the angels, but with the sons of men, and it brings out a point of importance as to what is lovely, what is peculiarly attractive in a youthful sense; life as it were, at its prime, in its beauty. As the Lord says, "Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin. And yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these", (Matthew 6:28 - 29). It is a question of what life is and the youthfulness of life, and, as applied to life in a spiritual sense, of which I am speaking, it is most attractive, and the sons of men would be a suggestion of what life is as Wisdom saw it. And so I touched on verse 6 -- "Son of man" -- not 'son of men'. It is a term found in Ezekiel many times; much used by the Lord as to Himself. But "sons of men" is a beautiful expression, and I have already touched on it. But here it is, "Son of man, hast thou seen this"? It is a question of experience -- had he seen it? He had seen much up to this point. And it says, "And he led me, and brought me back to the bank of the river". That is, you have had remarkable experience, but the man has more for

you and I believe that is one point in our meetings, dear brethren, how much there may be yet, how much is possible. And so here, "he led me and brought me back to the bank of the river". It is a great matter in scripture to be led: there is a great need for it too. It says, "And he led me and brought me back to the bank of the river. When I returned, behold on the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other". Now this is the point, as many of us perhaps have noticed; he had not seen this when he saw the river first. He had gone through the river and he speaks of it being impassable, but he saw nothing of the trees; reminding us of the importance of waiting in the divine realm -- how much there is to be seen, even surprises! In fact you might say this was one of them. So it says, "When I returned, behold on the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other". Why did he not see them before? He is not reproved; he reproves himself by implication, as if he were to enlarge on what is in mind. He could tell us about the depth of the water, to the ankles and the knees and the loins, and the impassableness of the river, but not a word about the trees. If the river is the Spirit, the trees are the brethren; that is simple -- I am not forcing the passage. We may talk much of the Spirit, and we should, but do not forget the brethren. If they come into view in this sense of surprise, how beautiful they are! We ought to learn the beauty of the brethren -- "Let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us". The beauty of the Lord, but set upon us, in the sense of what can be on man -- put on man, put on the brethren. Well, he said he returned, meaning that the point is the returning, the coming back to a thing; not being sure that everything is exhausted or looked into or thoroughly known. It is hard to say much about anyone who knows much, except Paul as a

teacher he says, "Ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery" (Ephesians 3:4) as though the Lord put him forward as an ideal of acquiring knowledge, and if Paul, why not others? He says, "I returned", and "behold on the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other" -- on both sides. No doubt John had this in mind in his book of the Revelation. I believe he had read it and that the Lord intended him to know something of the book of Ezekiel and of course we can get enlargement on the subject by reading the book of the Revelation. "And he said unto me, These waters issue out toward the east district, and go down into the plain, and go into the sea; when they are brought forth into the sea, the waters thereof shall be healed" (Ezekiel 47:8). That is what I am coming to, the power of the life in the sense of healing -- how much that is needed; how much laceration, dear brethren, has come about with us and what need for healing! -- "Rather it may be healed". And there is the power for that in life; the Spirit is life and the saints become living too. But it is a question of the river here and the trees are on both sides of the river, unseen at first but now seen. "And it shall come to pass that every living thing which moveth, whithersoever the double river shall come, shall live" -- the double river, that is, it is a plural idea now. It is a question of the things that live already that are in mind now, the increase of life, life more abundantly. So that there is abundance as we come on in the truth and get to know one another, finding our home in the assembly. The Lord will be with us, as our brother said in his prayer, according to Matthew. Matthew gives us no account of the ascension, he is an assembly man and he is stressing the fact that the Lord is here to support us in it; not to take charge of it exactly, but to support us in it. "There am I …" -- not because of what He does -- of course He does

things -- but He is there, and that is the thing to have before us. The Lord is greatly enlarging special meetings, as we call them, and it is a sign of the moment, it is a sign of life that the brethren like to be together. The thing is increasing. The devil is, of course, against it; but there it is, there is the increase, the word "double" implies that, the increase, what there is. Hence it says, "And it shall come to pass that every living thing which moveth, whithersoever the double river shall come, shall live. And there shall be a very great multitude of fish; for these waters shall come thither, and the waters of the sea shall be healed; and everything shall live whither the river cometh" (Ezekiel 47:9). There is the idea of living and moving, but now there is something additional -- there is life in abundance, a very great multitude of fish, that is, living things; John could speak of them one hundred and fifty-three great fishes. That is, the fish are there on account of this, for the waters shall be healed whithersoever the double river cometh.

So I thought I would call attention to this in view of experience that, dear brethren, we might be experimental in things and find guidance in experience and prove what comes about under certain conditions, and do not have to ask so many questions. Hence the point is to get the conditions, then we know what comes about, it is sure to happen. We are urged to come together, to assemble ourselves, but there are needed conditions; hence the point is to bring these conditions about.
J.T.

LEVITICAL SERVICE

Numbers 3:14 - 20; Numbers 4:1 - 33

J.T. The object in reading these scriptures is to call attention to the Levites, first viewed as a family -- all being included, and then to their work. There are actually fewer engaged in the work than are counted in chapter 3. It is thought that we should profit by dwelling first on the family side in chapter 3 in which the sons of Levi are reckoned according to their birth, and then the work or service side in chapter 4 in which they are regarded according to the sovereignty of God, Kohath being the first mentioned. The subject begins in the early part of chapter 3 -- "And these are the generations of Aaron and Moses in the day that Jehovah spoke with Moses on Mount Sinai". The fact that Moses was Aaron's brother is especially in mind according to what was said by Jehovah earlier when He called the attention of Moses to Aaron for the first time saying, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother?" Then Aaron did certain things, which indicate that he was a real brother. God said "He goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart". That refers to the brotherly side -- the family side, and ought to be remembered so that we might have a right view of the Levites. "And these are the generations of Aaron and Moses in the day that Jehovah spoke with Moses on Mount Sinai. And these are the names of the sons of Aaron: Nadab the firstborn, and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. These are the names of the sons of Aaron, the anointed priests, who were consecrated to exercise the priesthood. And Nadab and Abihu died before Jehovah when they offered strange fire before Jehovah in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no sons; and Eleazar and Ithamar exercised the priesthood in the presence of Aaron their father". Two

sons of Aaron died because they offered strange fire. That is another matter to be before us in considering the subject of the Levites. So the subject proceeds down to verse 14 which says, "And Jehovah spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai saying, Number the sons of Levi according to their fathers' houses, after their families; every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the commandment of Jehovah". It would be well to refer to these earlier verses so that we may have before us the idea of the brother among the Levites; then the priest, that is Aaron. What happened to him? What happened to his sons? That is more the family side; the Levites are taken account of from that side in chapter 3 where they are regarded according to their birth. Then in chapter 4 we have the sovereignty of God, Kohath being mentioned first, and the verses from 1 down to the end of 20 are devoted to his services, the remaining verses read to the end of 33 being devoted to the other two sons of Levi. There are distinctions and variations which are important. It is hoped that the Lord will help us to look at the subject bearing these types in mind.

Rem. Is the brotherly side stressed in the assembly gospel? Matthew tells us that the Lord chose two pairs of brothers. Is that what is in your mind? He saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, and going on thence he saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee and John his brother. Is the emphasis on the brotherly feature?

J.T. I think it is. Then to see that these four brothers had a leading place among the twelve. First Peter, then Peter and John, and then the other two in a lesser way, so that we are constantly reminded of variations in the service of God, all this calling attention to care for each other and to help us to bear

in mind the distinctions God may put upon us, even though these may be slight. We have to make up our minds not to be democratic which is the spirit of the age, it being said (especially in the western hemisphere) that God created all men alike. That is not so. The remark is intended to bring out the equality of man. 'He created all men equally' -- is a well known saying, but it is not true. Men are not created alike or equal. Distinctions are seen in the assembly too and the further down the line we come the more we shall see what variations there are and what distinctions, what nobility and so forth. God reserves these rights among His people.

Ques. Are you speaking of the family side first in order to emphasise the sovereignty of God with us? There were 22,000 Levites.

J.T. That is right. That is chapter 3 where we have the number stated, viz. 22,000, whereas in the actual work there were about eight thousand. Then the idea of sovereignty in Kohath the priest. We will do well to reserve a little time to speak of the special work of Kohath, and the danger that attended it. In ministry dealing with Divine Persons or divine things, the point arises of the danger of the natural mind working, and so the passage that we have read calls attention to the provision for the preservation of the Kohathites. Verse 18 says "Ye shall not cut off the families of the Kohathites from among the Levites, but this shall ye do unto them, that they might live, and not die, when they draw near unto the most holy things: Aaron and his sons shall go in, and appoint them every one to his service and to his burden; but they shall not go in and see for a moment the holy things, lest they die". I speak of this because of the tendency with us to say wrong things when the greatest care should be exercised, especially anything that relates to Divine Persons Themselves. The

greatest care should be exercised that we do not make mistakes and say wrong things lest we be cut off, for it is most serious.

Rem. You were speaking of the democratic spirit and the place given to it, and that all were not alike; would be that seen in Mark's gospel where the Lord surnames Peter, James and John?

J.T. Quite so. The idea that all men are created equal is not the truth. We have another case in Acts 4 -- Barnabas was surnamed Son of consolation. We might say these men were distinguished above others.

J.W. The Lord says of Paul, "This man is an elect vessel to me", (Acts 9:15).

J.T. That is a distinction. I do not think there is another designated in that way -- "For this man is an elect vessel to me to bear my name before both nations and kings and the sons of Israel", (Acts 9:15) as if he were to be fitted for it.

P.J. You said, in referring to Aaron, that he was a real brother. What had you in mind?

J.T. Well, just what I quoted, what Jehovah said to Moses, "Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? …And also behold he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart". (Exodus 4:14) What an advantage to have a brother like that! What God said of Aaron was not said even of Moses himself.

Ques. Do we get the two sides you have been drawing attention to in 2 Corinthians? In chapter 2 verse 13 it says "I had no rest in my spirit at not finding Titus my brother". That is the brotherly side. And then later in chapter 12 verse 11, "I have been nothing behind those who were in surpassing degree apostles". Is the sovereign side seen in that?

J.T. Quite so. Then the two brothers who laboured with Paul at Corinth is another point. They preached the Son of God, as it says, "The Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among

you, by me and Silvanus and Timotheus". They were suited vessels for that purpose.

Rem. In regard to the bounty of the saints, Titus who has already been mentioned comes in, in that connection in 2 Corinthians 8; then we have "the brother whose praise is in the glad tidings through all the assemblies", and later on in the chapter, "our brother whom we have often proved to be of diligent zeal in many things". Does that all shew that the brotherly element should not interfere with the distinctiveness required in the service?

J.T. Quite so. These distinctions are convenient to use in the service and in the epistles where the brethren are saluted we have a convenient means of expressing our affection and respect in these titles. Saints are called upon to be obedient because there is a great tendency to disregard all these things in the ministry and service and I think, too, a tendency to disregard what brethren who are in the service are entitled to, not that they claim it of course. If they did they would disqualify themselves but it is how the saints should regard those in the ministry, seen especially in the salutations of Paul; others too, but particularly of Paul.

Jno. G. Would you say that if ministering servants are marked by the features of the brother it would greatly help the saints in paying them respect?

J.T. Well, that is true, but that is the other side of the matter. There is one thing perhaps resident in one, there is something else to balance that in another. We do not want to reduce things. We want to make the most of what is divinely given, and which carries with it divine authority.

A.B. In that connection Ananias in Acts 9 was very quick to recognise the brotherly features in Paul although they had not been manifested previously.

He could say, "Saul, brother", it is not mentioned previously.

J.T. Yes. There is not much said about Ananias but evidently he knew how to use the word brother; "Saul, brother". I think it is good to use whatever adornment there is. The authorities afford us this light. We learn from them, we learn from nature too, and we learn from ordinary men. It is good to observe that and to make use of what God affords us for our instruction so that the democratic idea is not allowed to govern us; the idea of distinction runs almost from the start in humanity.

W.H.T. Does not the beloved apostle distinguish Timothy in that way as being like-minded and caring with genuine feeling how the saints get on?

J.T. Just so. There was no one else like him and that was a distinction -- "For I have no one like minded who will care with genuine feeling how ye get on". (Philippians 2:20) It is helpful to note these allusions to Moses and Aaron and to their generations -- "These are the generations of Aaron and Moses". God brought these two men forward and the sister is brought forward later. He has a right to do that. Miriam has distinction but not such distinction as Moses and Aaron. The family side is seen in these twenty-two thousand numbered from a month old and upward. We are to recognise what is likeable in the brethren. It is rare to get any two alike in the human race, and when we come to the divine family we should look for these distinctions and what is likeable, so we take David, whose name means beloved. He was a likeable young man, being described as "ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance". (1 Samuel 16:12) He is the Lord's anointed and surely in all this we are to be reminded of the Lord Jesus. Then, too, John; the Lord loved him, as it says "The disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 21:20).

Ques. Would that feature be specially seen in

David being loved by all Israel and Judah as going out and coming in before them?

J.T. That is the thought. He was signalised too in the song of the women after the slaughter of Goliath but he was loved by all Israel and Judah.

J.M. Is it the divine thought that every Levite is to be a loveable person?

J.T. Well, I would say so. At the time when the disciples were making much of their exploits the Lord brings in the balancing truth that their names are written in heaven, which would involve distinction. That is a point to notice, not to make too much mention of our exploits or our work, not too make too much of things that happen incidentally which in themselves mean nothing. So that at a critical time when things were turning against Him the disciples came to Him and said that the demons were subject to them, through His name, but the Lord says, "Yet in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens". (Luke 10:20) That is, there is something to distinguish each one for the name given would mean distinction. They are all firstborn ones as it says "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven", (Hebrews 12:23). So here the Levites are taken to represent the firstborn in Israel.

G.F.G. In verse 27 there are four families mentioned in connection with the Kohathites, but there are only two in each of the other two cases. Have you something in mind as to that? "And of Kohath, the family of the Amramites, and the family of the Izharites, and the family of the Hebronites, and the family of the Uzzielites; these are the families of the Kohathites".

J.T. It is very much worth mentioning that as there must be something in the fact that there are more in the case of Kohath. We have called attention

already to the verses covering the Kohathites in chapter 4. How much more there was with Kohath as compared with the other two.

G.F.G. Is it a question then of spirituality that brings out these family features?

J.T. Well, it would seem so. Four is a universal number. There were four priests, sons of Aaron, but two of them died. That was a terrible loss -- a terrible calamity -- but what is in mind particularly is that we should regard the saints from the brotherly standpoint, that is as the family of God. In service we are apt to be tested by one another more than in the family. The gift that one has may tend to rivalry and I believe the thought is that the brotherly spirit should stand. If a brother who is serving in a special way comes under discipline I think the brotherly spirit should stand, because there is a danger in such circumstances that we may give way to rivalry.

S.R. When you said it should stand, do you mean that it should prevail?

J.T. Well, it should stand anyway. It should not be weakened.

Rem. The brotherly link that existed between Peter and Paul was seen in the 15th of Acts when Paul went to up Jerusalem. It stood the strain when a difficult matter arose later on as to ministry.

J.T. Peter showed how superior he was and he says, "Our beloved brother Paul". It would look as if he intended to stress the brotherly feature because brethren might have thought that Paul's rebuke of Peter would be unseemly, Peter being an older man, certainly older in the service.

S.B. Is the spirit of what you say seen in 1 Timothy 5:1, particularly in regard to discipline. "Rebuke not an elder sharply, but exhort him as a father, younger men as brethren, elder women as mothers, younger women as sisters, with all purity".

J.T. I am glad you mention that. The servant who ministers well is deserving of special consideration. The whole history should be taken into account if we have to deal with any of our brethren who are in service.

Ques. Do you mean that we should not fasten our minds on one particular thing and press it beyond a man's general course?

J.T. That is right. We must begin with heaven really in these matters and heaven has a perfect standard, hence we have the word "measure" taken up by Paul. Heaven had its estimate of Paul at the outset. "He is an elect vessel". -- not that he was going to be that but he was that.

Rem. Does the viewing of the Levites from one month old and upwards help us to look at the saints in relation to the potentialities that are there, whereas in the case of the number actually in the work it is a question more of the qualities coming out specifically and room would be made for the distinction they carry?

J.T. Quite. I have thought in relation to Timothy, the mother and grandmother being mentioned would mean that they have accorded distinction to Timothy, for their names are given. His father was a Greek, which added no distinction to Timothy, but the mother and grandmother do. It says of Timothy "From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures". (2 Timothy 3:15) What we have to look for in brethren is, do they know how to use scripture in ministry and support everything they say by it. Timothy was well versed in the scriptures.

Rem. Would that bear on the difference between the service of the Kohathites and the others. The Kohathites seem to deal more with what belonged to Divine Persons Themselves, the vessels of the Sanctuary, whereas the others seem to be more in

connection with divine principles and the persons of the saints.

J.T. These features are not there for nothing. They are there for our notice and intended to help us in our day to make full use of scripture. Give full place to it, make it adorn what we say in the emphasis we give it so that we are not saying things just because they come to our minds but because they are authorised by scripture.

Ques. Do you think we are clearer as to divine principles than we are as to the truth in relation to Divine Persons?

J.T. Well, I am sure that is true. That is why I think Kohath is put first. So much is said about him, as if the servant should be clear as to the truth of Divine Persons and all that relates to Them. I think what Kohath means is that things that relate to Divine Persons ought to be well understood before we minister -- to have the truth of Divine Persons clearly in mind and especially what goes with Them, the sacred things.

S.G. Do you think that as stressing the scriptures in these last days we would be preserved as over against the character of governments that might come in?

J.T. Well, I think so and therefore we ought to search the scriptures daily whether these things are so.

Ques. You spoke about certain using scripture more freely. What had you exactly in mind? Do you mean taking liberties with it?

J.T. Yes. One has seen it and heard it in ministry, and in open air preachings. There is nothing has more weight than the scripture quoted rightly and intelligently.

F.I. Is the apostle in line with that when he speaks of "… my glad tidings and the preaching of

Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery …" (Romans 16:25).

J.T. I suppose that would mean that the mystery was in mind in relation to the glad tidings and its effect upon souls. In preaching the idea of the assembly should be there and therefore independency would disappear. There is so much independency -- persons said to be converted and in the preaching not a word said about the assembly. Paul's doctrine includes the ministry of the assembly. Paul would be concerned that the gospel should carry with it at least the principle of the assembly.

Ques. Were you going to draw any special attention to this service of the Kohathites?

J.T. Well it has already been alluded to in the sense that so much more has been said about him than about the other two Levites and so much brought in as to priesthood in the service of the Kohathites; hence it is said in verse 16, "And Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest shall have the oversight of the oil for the light, and the fragrant incense, and the continual oblation, and the anointing oil -- the oversight of the whole tabernacle, and of all that is therein, over the sanctuary, and over its furniture". That is brought in, in the midst of the instruction about Kohath and you can see that the priesthood is stressed right through it. The priests were to go in and take down the holy things and that preserves us from rashness for the priestly element ought to be with the preacher. The priestly element is that which helps us to be balanced in saying things.

Ques. Are you connecting that in your mind with what you said about being established in the truth concerning Divine Persons?

J.T. Well, I would say that. You will notice in that connection in verse 15 it is said, "And when Aaron and his sons have ended covering the sanctuary,

and all the utensils of the sanctuary, when the camp setteth forward, then afterwards the sons of Kohath shall come to carry it, but they shall not touch the holy things, lest they die". So that the minister ought to distinguish between his ordinary feelings as minister and his priestly feelings, and the priestly feelings should govern all he states. Whatever he may say he must ever think of what is priestly and think twice before he says things about Divine Persons.

Ques. Is the reference to Eleazar a reminder that we should cultivate closeness to Christ as the One who has personal oversight? Would that be the reference here?

J.T. I think so. I think the Eleazar is the prince of the princes of the Levites and whilst Ithamar is also a priest he is not spoken of in the same way. Eleazar, I think, would be the minister as he keeps himself in close touch with the Lord. He lives there.

Rem. So that if a matter comes up in relation to the truth of the Father or of the Son or of the Spirit it is not only a question of understanding and bowing to the authority of the scripture but of being under the control of Christ.

J.T. I would say that -- that you are really under his influence. I think that is what Eleazar means. Eleazar is near to Aaron and immediately Aaron dies he is the high priest.

S.B. A priest must be a man of understanding, and his lips keep knowledge.

J.T. His lips!

A.E.D. Would this thought as to the Levites being safeguarded be seen in Paul in Romans? "For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings", (Romans 1:9).

J.T. Very good -- serving God in his spirit. These things are most enlightening and corrective that our

spirits should be right. Mary, the mothers of the Lord, seems as if she was fitted for a great service. She said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:46). She distinguishes between her soul and her spirit.

J.M. Do the doxologies we have in the epistles indicate something of this priestly feature with the writers?

J.T. Just so. I think they are put down for that purpose to enrich the scriptures, beautify them. If you love the Lord they furnish rich means of holy prayer or meditation or worship even. You may use them in worship.

QUICK LEARNING

John 1:43 - 51; John 20:15 - 18

J.T. As has been remarked, it is not simply learning that is in mind, but quick learning. This gospel makes much of learning, and properly speaking, teaching precedes learning. The Lord Himself in the prophets says "He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed", (Isaiah 50:4). So that it is in the mind of God that we should all be learners, but particularly those of us who serve in a special way. The Lord, too, in this particular gospel, quoting from the prophet (Isaiah 54:13) says "They shall be all taught of God", (John 6:45), although that refers to the millennium when there will be widespread learning of God. In chapter 3 we have a special result of the work of God; Nicodemus is a slow learner, although a true believer, and it is thought that chapter 1 furnishes a quick learner -- that is Nathanael -- a learner by observation, not so much listening to teaching. Then in chapter 9 we have in the blind man who had his eyes opened, one who learned quickly, but who learned in order, the order in which the truth comes to us, until he arrives at the Lord Jesus and the Lord arrives at him. The Lord had met him earlier, but now he finds him and says "Dost thou believe on the Son of God", and the man replies "Who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him"? So that he has been learning and as the chapter shows is even able to teach others. Now he is still learning, and I suppose he may be regarded as representing us all, for while we are down here we are to be learners. So I thought this scripture in John 1 would help us on this point. The chapter 20 would help us as extending the thought to sisters. Sisterhood usually includes more in number than with brothers, but I am afraid the

disposition with them is to leave the learning to the brothers, the wives being content that their husbands are taught, whereas this gospel has striking examples of sisters who learn. Mary Magdalene is perhaps the best example -- hence the passage in chapter 20 has been read.

Ques. What had you particularly in mind when you spoke of Nathanael learning by observation?

J.T. Well, the Lord, when He saw Nathanael coming to Him says "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile. Nathanael says to him, Whence Knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". He said that because of what the Lord had said, and it is because he observed that the Lord was there that the Lord could say what he did to him. He acquired a knowledge of the son of God very quickly.

P.J. Would you say that he was marked by spiritual discernment?

J.T. Well he had been growing. In verse 45 it says "Philip finds Nathanael, and says to him, We have found him of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth. And Nathanael said to him, Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" That would shew there was no discernment there at the start.

P.J. I mean there is discernment there as a quick learner.

J.T. Yes, quite so; but not at the start. It is just as well to examine occasions of this kind because they are put down for our examination and our instruction. He says first of all "Can anything good come out of Nazareth?" Why should he say that? A man who had just spoken to him had said "We have found him

of whom Moses wrote in the law, and the prophets, Jesus, the son of Joseph, who is from Nazareth". Why should he answer immediately "Can anything good come out of Nazareth"? The speaker, Philip, evidently spoke sincerely and truly and feelingly; where was Nathanael's discernment? Why should he say that immediately? Where was his discernment? Where was his history? Where was the experience which he learned from the facts?

J.W. Was it possible that he was coloured by what was current at the time? It is said on another occasion "Search and look, that no prophet arises out if Galilee", (John 7:52).

J.T. Well, quite so.

S.R. Would the thief on the cross be an example of one who learned by observation?

J.T. Very good; he is a good example of the aptness which now should occupy us in observation and learning.

Ques. Would the absence of guile in Nathanael account for his ability to learn quickly?

J.T. Well, the Lord's remarks would indicate it was constitutional, which is a thing to be counted on. If we see one who has some marks of the work of God, however small, God has effected that. The truth is that the whole man is born again -- not partially so. In (John 3:5 - 7) it says "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Nicodemus queries that because he is natural, and yet he had the distinct marks of the work of God, only the work in him was sluggish. You do not get anything very much of him until the nineteenth chapter, and even then he provides spices for the embalmment of the Lord's body.

Jno.G. Do you think that we see a contrast to Nathanael in Nicodemus, in the fact that he discloses the ability to learn quickly and the Lord recognises that in saying "Thou shalt see greater things than these"; whereas Nicodemus was not able to learn quickly, hence it says -- "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe"?

J.T. Well, of course, you must remember that the teaching is progressive, and what you say is a bit beyond the beginning. The Lord is really meaning to encourage Nathanael and says, "Thou shalt see greater things than these". It is a progressive thought. He had already said, "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". Think of a man being able to say that in such a short time from the truth being brought to him!

H.B. When you speak of quick learning being constitutional, do you mean normally to each person who is a believer -- one who is born again -- or is it to a selected person?

J.T. Well, anyone who is born again, or course, is selected, but some are sluggish. Others are quick. There are many examples in the scriptures, but I have picked out these two as the best that could be found -- especially Nathanael.

J.M. What do you suggest would help us to learn quickly?

J.T. The word "constitutional" is good, because it implies (speaking of it on natural lines) what one is by birth. The principle is in the person -- the principle of learning, the ability to learn; that must be there. Even in natural things you would get capacity for instruction in a man or woman, a boy or girl; you could not get ability to learn in a dog, no matter what means may be employed. It might appear in a small way in a detail, but in general it is

not there. The thing is not really there at all. Therefore the principle of learning lies in the new birth. That is where everything lies, because the person is born anew. The word in John 3 is "That which is born of the flesh is flesh" and if the new birth dislodged or displaced the natural, there would be no sluggishness. The fact is that there is flesh to be dealt with, and it is that, if allowed, which causes sluggishness. Hence the need for exercise.

P.H.H. Is there a certain skill implied in the ministry or in the minister in Philip's action here? First of all he is found by the Lord and then he finds Nathanael, and when Nathanael raises a doubt he says "Come and see". Does that imply a certain method of approach which should be inherent in the ministry today?

J.T. Well, I think that is good. "Come and see". Meaning to be simple and practical, that if anyone is exercised at all, "come" is a word with spiritual instruction. Paul and Barnabas (especially Paul) had that in mind when at Antioch they taught in the assembly for a whole year. It is very remarkable indeed, the understanding and skill that is there; skill and experience too in teaching, which would be necessary to continue for a whole year, notwithstanding the fact that time must be regarded as valuable with these two brothers. However that is the way they did it and the result was very remarkable, for the disciples were called Christians at Antioch, but the teaching was in the assembly. It was a crowd they were teaching, and these persons would be rather mixed in ability and in constitutional qualities.

Ques. Have you any thought as to the distinction, Andrew leading his brother to Jesus, and the way that Philip invites Nathanael to come to Jesus?

J.T. You mean the difference between leading and coming?

Rem. I mean the invitation bringing him.

J.T. Just so. The power of the word "come". The words "come and see" are characteristic of John, and have a great place in that Gospel. It means that the Spirit is here on earth, and it is of great value for an exercised person to some and see; for instance, the two that followed the Lord in the early part of the chapter. It says "Again, on the morrow, there stood John and two of his disciples. And, looking at Jesus as he walked, he says, Behold the Lamb of God. And the two disciples heard him speaking, and followed Jesus. But Jesus having turned, and seeing them following, says to them, What see ye? And they said to him, Rabbi (which being interpreted, signifies Teacher), where abidest thou? He says to them, Come and see". That is, if you are exercised about learning, come and see where Jesus is, and what goes on where He is. They abode with Him that day. That would be an opportunity to see learners and how they learnt. Some say that class learning is the best way, that is persons all together, learning the same thing, and using all their powers to get all they can. That is what meetings like this should be -- not simply a coming together for a good time, and to hear the truth, but to carry the truth away with us.

Ques. Would an example be seen in Paul in Acts 9verses 19 and 20, where it says that he "having received food, got strength. And he was with the disciples who were in Damascus certain days. And straightway in the synagogues he preached Jesus that he is the Son of God".

J.T. That is good. Evidently he learned quickly. For about sixteen years now we have had up this question. Who is the Son of God? The brethren have had it before them all that time, and the question is what have we learned about it? That matter was brought up very pointedly and one might say

Suddenly. (That is another significant word which we get in scripture). We have had it before us all these years, and it is a challenge for each of us how much we have learned. Here the Lord says "Come and see", and I think that anyone who hears now will do well to observe how the brethren are listening, that the Lord is here with us, and how we are getting on in truth.

Ques. I would like a little more help as to this thought of "no guile". It was when Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him that He says of him "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". Would you say that guile is one of the most retarding things in relation to learning?

J.T. Well, I suppose that is right, and the Lord comments on Nathanael being free from it, because what it says is, I am sure, true. Nathanael is to be subject to the work of God and Nicodemus too. When we compare the two men as to learning, we see that in the case of Nathanael it is said, "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him". The actual fact of seeing is another feature of John. For instance in verse 41 already alluded to Andrew "finds his own brother Simon and says to him, We have found the Messias (Which being interpreted is Christ)". The interpretation of words which would not be understood is usually given in John, especially in these early chapters, and so this word Messias is explained in verse 41, "(which being interpreted in Christ)". Then it says he led him to Jesus. We have already commented on the difference between leading, being led, and coming. Next we have "Jesus looking at him". He also looks at Nathanael as it says "Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and says of him, Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". We have already alluded to the constitutional side, and it was there. But the point is that it is not what Nathanael says, but what

The Lord sees in Nathanael coming to Him. That thought leads me back to the beginning of Genesis. There we have the idea of names of persons and things, names of persons and things, names of creatures. Jehovah caused the animals to come to Adam to see what he might call them, as if God had pleasure in the discernment, the intelligence that His great creature man had. So, in a more exalted way, we have here the last Adam, Christ. He looks on Simon and says "Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas". This is material for the assembly. Now the Lord looks at Nathanael and says "Behold one truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". Evidently He had Israel in mind, what should be looked for in them. And so, if it be a question of having the assembly in mind (and of course that is the question now) Cephas is the man for that. It is a question of what the Lord sees in us at the first.

Ques. Is Cephas constitutional?

J.T. I would think so, because it is a question of material. The Lord says in Matthew 16 "Thou art Peter". Not 'Thou shalt be called …' That is what he was by constitution, by the work of God in him. And so in all these gatherings it is a question of what God sees, a question of persons, and whole persons as subjects of the work of God; not part of them, but the whole man. That is by the subsequent creative purpose of God.

S.G. The note in relation to verse 42 is interesting. It says "Looking carefully at him".

J.T. The note referred to reads "Looking carefully; so verse 36; Matthew 19:26; Luke 22:61". These notes are useful. But I think we can all see the use of these words, the importance of them in regard to our subject, that is, in regard to teaching. The teacher must look at the disciple or pupil. Someone was telling me last night that he was engaged in

connection with the service of demobilisation. I enquired as to whether he looked at the soldier he was dealing with, and was told No, he looked at the papers. It comes to my mind now that heaven is not looking at the saints from any documentary standpoint. That will be so at the great white throne; but now heaven is looking at the work of God in every one of us, and hence the importance of Christians, real Christians; the importance of the work of God.

Rem. The importance also of all learning to be true to what is true of us constitutionally as born again. The Lord looking at us carefully would remind us that we come under divine scrutiny, do you think, and we have to admit sometimes that what the Lord sees and what He would disclose to us is that the things we are going on with are such as would prevent us from being quick learners. Hence the need of being true in the power of the Spirit.

J.T. You mean you are holding yourself in the light of what you know you are by the work of God, and moving accordingly; paying attention to what is necessary to accelerate that -- to make it all it should be.

Rem. I feel very much and I would like more help as to the thought of guile. It is not exactly arrant wickedness, but it is something near the truth, but not quite the truth. Guile seems to be quite a striking word and I was wondering if there was something very particular in it being brought forward so early in John.

J.T. It is clearly with a view to the man. He is a good case. It is a very important thing with a workman in the field of God. What kind of persons are we dealing with? Sometimes they are slow and sluggish and sometimes they are quick and ready to talk too much. The true workman will know what to think of his subjects. It is a great matter in service to

deal with the person, as we have seen that the Merarites in their service had to do with the boards, that is the persons, persons who are subjects of the work of God, and would observe them.

Rem. So later on in John you have those who practise the truth and come into the light. I suppose they are persons in whom what is constitutional has become characteristic.

J.T. Quite so. You see that in the way things are thrown off, judged and abandoned, so that the work of God is allowed to go forward. "Laying aside every weight and sin which so easily entangles us …"

F.B. It requires a moral foundation for this quick learning.

J.T. Well, it does. It is not a mere academic matter, it is a moral matter, it begins with God. God is our great Teacher. The Lord Jesus is here specifically called that by the persons who follow him -- they call Him Teacher. John's disciples wanted to see the Teacher, but the Lord said to them "What seek ye", whereas He said to Mary Magdalene "Whom seekest thou"? It is a question in the first place of the thing. The Lord had in mind that they needed to be taught, but with Mary Magdalene it is the Person.

G.M. What is the difference between teaching and learning?

J.T. You knew what the teacher did at school? He taught. That is his business. Your business was to learn. Your parents would point out to you to study. That is what is left to you to do. We do not study enough. We do not meditate. John said "We have contemplated His glory".

P.J. Would quick learning be seen in Romans 8, verse 5? -- "For they that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh; and they that are according to Spirit, the things of the Spirit".

J.T. Well, that is good.

Ques. Just referring for a moment to the enquiry about guile: Do you get an illustration of guile in the woman in John 4, where the Lord says "Go call they husband" and she replies "I have no husband"?

J.T. Do you not think that was a downright lie?

Rem. It seems to be a measure of the truth to cover up the whole truth.

J.T. "He whom thou now hast". There was deception -- guile, no doubt, but I would say it was far worse.

Rem. The Lord says "Thou hast well said, I have no husband". There seems to be some truth in what she says. I wondered if that was where the guile comes in. It borders on wickedness.

J.T. Well, it does. She denied the thing. Guile is bad enough, but this is worse.

P.H.H. Is there a certain glory which follows upon this learning? I was thinking of the disciples in the next chapter being in the presence of the sign of the water turned into wine and it says Jesus manifested His glory and His disciples believed on Him. Does that shew the advantage of moving along this line of learning, to come into some ray of the glory of the Person?

J.T. Just so. It is progressive I would say. The Lord remarks "One truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile". That is a basis for further remarks by the Lord. Nathanael says to Him, "Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said to him, before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou are the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". The manifestation of His glory is here too. The negative statement would indicate he was ready to let in light as it shone; let in glory as it shone. So that the Lord said, "Before that Philip called thee,

when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee. Nathanael answered and said to Him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou are the King of Israel". What a marvellous thing -- the ability to take in things quickly! Two of the greatest things in the book of Psalms, he is able to say immediately that they applied to the Lord -- the only person to whom they could be applied. "Jesus answered and said to him, Because I said to thee, I saw thee under the fig-tree, believest thou?" The Lord is confirming His work in a progressive manner. He is carrying the subject along in what he has already confessed. So He says "Thou shalt see greater things than these". Not simply 'There shall be greater things', but he was to see them.

J.M. Would the Lord suggest in that way to Nathanael that he was still to be quick in his observation?

J.T. Quite so. That is what the Lord implied. The Lord would have in His mind that he was learning quickly, learning wonderfully.

Ques. Does it shew that in the way he uses the word "thou" twice emphatically?

J.T. Well, I would think that; it would fit in with the first chapter of Hebrews, where the things relative to the glory of Christ are taken from what the psalmist uttered. Heaven is pleased with those who learn, taking their very sayings and applying them.

P.H.H. The fact that he says "Rabbi" shows that he had taken the thing on.

J.T. Quite so. I think he is a reader, which is a great matter. What we are dealing with now is a question of the scriptures, and these bible readings are definitely appointed for these last days. It is a question as to whether the apostles had readings just as we have them. I am sure God has ordered these bible readings, and it is a question for persons who

come to them to read the scriptures. So Philip the evangelist (not the Philip mentioned here) when he first met the eunuch said "understandest thou what thou readest"? You can see how Nathanael understood. So the Lord in Luke 24 finally adds the idea of the Psalms when teaching the disciples -- He opened their understanding and referred to the Psalms.

H.B. Nathanael would be actually an advance upon Philip. Philip refers to Moses and the prophets, but it would seem as though Nathanael had got something additional.

J.T. Yes, that would be seen if he compared notes with Philip later. I am sure Philip would be ready to give credit to Nathanael, the new convert, although he himself was not a very old convert. It is movement, constant movement in this chapter. One result of quick work. We have John the Baptist's part in it, and the Lord's own part in it, and then his remarks here; and so as remarked, if these two brothers compared notes afterwards I am sure Philip would be ready to admit that the younger brother, Nathanael, went beyond him. That is what the old brothers do all the time -- recognise the young. One of the greatest encouragements I know is the number of young brothers who are able to come out and serve, and as far as I can see, too, the older ones ready to recognise them. So I am sure that Philip would be ready to tell Nathanael that he had got on quicker than he; he would probably say, 'I did not say anything to you about the Son of God'. It was Nathanael who brought that subject up.

Rem. Philip told Nathanael that they had found Jesus, the son of Joseph; but Nathanael goes far beyond that. He says "Thou are the Son of God; Thou art the King of Israel". Then the Lord refers to Himself as Son of man.

J.T. Well, that is what the Lord put before him,

as much as to say, 'Go on'. The vista of glory opening up is unlimited, because the light that is shining is unlimited; "Thou shalt see greater things than these". (John 1:5) You cannot say you have got all the truth, for we never get to the end of it. Not that we shall be learning after we get to heaven, for we shall be finished down here. It is a question of what the Lord can do in our present state. He can make us finished products in spite of what is there, that which is born of the flesh, but the power of the Spirit is operating.

E.B. Would this 'opened heaven' be like the 'opened heavens' in the epistle to Hebrews?

J.T. Very much. "Ye shall see the heaven opened" (John 1:51) -- alluding to Jacob in Genesis. He is dealing with an Israelite and Jacob was a great Israelite. Israel is the name he got, and Nathanael is a good sample of an Israelite.

F.B. By way of contrast, would Zacharias in Luke be a slow learner, while his wife was a quick learner?

J.T. Quite so, and he had to suffer nine months of dumbness. Manoah's wife was a quick learner also.

Jno.H. Why is it "Son of man" in the last verse?

J.T. Some eighty times or more the Lord calls Himself the Son of man. It is a word which would fit in with the case of Nathanael, for He would not be limited to Israel. It would come out presently in Paul's ministry. It says in chapter 2 the disciples believed on Him. They were disciples before but they had not believed on Him. The shining of glory makes full disciples, and that was the point here. It means that the subject, the pupil or learner is to be ready for wider things. The Son of man implies something wider than the King of Israel. The Son of God is here too, and that is greater than the King of Israel, or the Son of man.

E.J.F. He changes from the "thou" to "ye".

Does that mean that others would be associated with him as he goes on?

J.T. Yes. That is good. "Verily, verily, I say to you, henceforth ye shall see …", meaning you are called to bring in others. None of us is here for himself. If he is a true Christian he is to bring in others. We don't want to go to heaven alone. We want to go with the brethren.

Rem. Paul could say in Corinthians "We all". Would that be including the Corinthians and himself?

J.T. I would say so -- in such good company.

S.B. Is it intended to direct our attention to the fact that our learning should be in line with another sphere and another Man. You remember it says of Paul "much learning doth make thee mad".

J.T. You are quoting what Festus said as recorded in the 26th chapter of the Acts. I am saying that so that we might refer to the scripture and have it exactly. Some at Corinth were saying "His bodily presence is weak and his speech contemptible".

Rem. Although Festus said "much learning doth make thee mad" they would not have said that about Paul's ordinary learning.

J.T. "Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man". The Lord opens that up to all of them. Whoever the "ye" may have meant, it was very extensive in the Lord's thought. You want to carry the brethren with you.

There is much more that we might dwell upon here as to the greatness of what is coming. But for the sake of the sisters we might look at chapter 20. Verse 14 says "Having said these things she turned backward and beholds Jesus standing there, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus says to her, Woman, why dost the weep? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing that it was the gardener, says to him, Sir, if thou hast borne

him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus says to her, Mary. She, turning round, says to Him in Hebrew, Rabboni, which means Teacher". These remarks are just to help to carry all of us in what has been said; that is the thought of learning. Although Mary is very dark in the early part of the chapter, yet she is full of affection for the Lord, but loving Him as thinking Him dead, whereas He was risen. He had risen from among the dead. There was considerable darkness in her soul, but the passage shews that the Lord dealt with her personally. We are told in verse 15 that He calls her "Woman", saying "Woman why dost thou weep? Whom seekest thou?" He is dealing with her soul, with her affections. But she replies supposing it was the gardener. "She says to him, Sir, if thou hast borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus says to her, Mary". That means that he is now dealing with her personally, referring to her affections, mentioning her name, which means suffering. She had, had experience, the experience of suffering. "She, turning round, says to him in Hebrew, Rabboni, which means Teacher. Jesus says to her, Touch me not". As much as to say, that is enough. That is the point He wanted her to come to, that she should call Him Teacher. He was her Teacher. I am learning of Christ; I am not a Presbyterian, not a member of the Church of England, nor a Catholic, nor any other sect. I am a Christian. I have learned of Christ. The persons who were called Christians had learned for a year from Paul and Barnabas.

Ques. I was going to ask if what hinders us is the teaching of current religion rather then learning in the way of which you are now speaking. I was thinking of the man in John 5. He seemed to make no progress whatever, he was still connected with the

religious system; and in relation to Colossians and Hebrews, the effect Judaising teaching had on them.

J.T. Quite so. Very good. The Lord said to the man in John 5 "Sin no more", and He says also to the woman in the 8th chapter "Sin no more", meaning, I should think, they were not subjects of progressive teaching. They were doubtful. And a great many today are doubtful.

P.H.H. Do you think that this rapid learning must be accompanied by the tendency for adjustment? I was thinking of Mary; first of all it says she turned round and said "Teacher". That might indicate "an Israelite indeed in whom there is no guile". It is our side of the matter to be ready for adjustment at all times.

J.T. Quite so. Hence the word to Paul was "And now why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name", (Acts 22:16). That is what he needed. Things still clung to him. I would think in that sense, according to what you say, baptism and the Lord's Supper are the great things for Christians who are seeking the truth, taking them on in their true sense. Paul had to rise and wash away his sins. He had to do it himself; but then he had to learn to come into fellowship. Normally Christians are so shy of fellowship. But I am sure these are true things which should be impressed. It says, Be baptised. That is, renounce the world, lay it aside, leave it, and then come into the fellowship, where you get distinct proof in the soul, and light, love, enjoyment; where would you get it in the systems? It is among the brethren you get that, where the Spirit of God dwells, involving the assembly.

F.C. Is that why in John 20 it is the Person, while in John 1 it is "What seek ye"?

J.T. Quite so; now the Person. The beautiful

word "Mary". First He said "Woman" -- a noble title. He does likewise in the case of the woman in the fourth chapter, and she says "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet". In chapter 20 He says "Woman" to make way for "Mary" which name meant much.

J.S. Would Lydia come in, in that connection? Would you say she was a quick learner. It says she was baptised and her house.

J.T. I would say that. And the remark was made "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there". It was to come in, not merely for a meal, but to abide there. She was a real hearty Christian.

P.J. The woman in 2 Kings 4 was farther advanced then her husband. She says "I perceive that this is a holy man of God".

J.T. And thus they made a dwelling place for him.

THE ASSEMBLY -- THE CUSTODIAN OF GOD'S TESTIMONY

Matthew 16:13 - 20; Matthew 18:15 - 20

J.T. What I have in mind is to call attention to the assembly. This is the gospel which speaks of it directly as the custodian of the testimony of God in this world. It is well-known that the gospels are intended to confirm the epistles, and this gospel supports Paul's letters to Corinth. 1 Corinthians 12 tells us that God has set certain gifts in the assembly including the gift of government, which is an important item, to preserve and support what is of God; and to exercise needed discipline and correction. It is thought, therefore, that the Lord my take account of us as we are and of our history in this city and grant us such help as is needed, so that the assembly may have its place in all that relates to the testimony in this city, inclusive of the persons in the assembly. They are especially in view, particularly in Matthew 18 which supposes that difficulties would arise and it provides light as to how they are to be met.

P.H.H. Would you please explain a little more what is in your mind when you say that the assembly should have its place with us in relation to the testimony.

J.T. Well, I think it is a divine system calculated to fit in with conditions as they are, meeting every exigency that may arise, whether it is by teaching, or preaching, or ministry generally. It is not the assembly in its heavenly relations which is before us. That is dealt with in Ephesians and is in mind generally in the Pauline epistles, but what is before us here is the assembly militant as having to do with adverse circumstances in the wilderness where evil has to be met.

W.W. Would this be like the children of Israel

passing through the wilderness in view of reaching the land?

J.T. Well that is just what is in mind. But they reach the land. The tabernacle, of course, represents the assembly in the wilderness, although as in the land the tabernacle was set up at Shiloh, which was a provisional position until the temple was built, as it is said "Solomon built him a house". (Acts 7:47) So what we are dealing with now and what Matthew contemplates is the assembly in the wilderness.

Ques. Had you in mind that as the truth of the assembly has a place with us, independent activities or movements are eliminated?

J.T. Well, that is a good way of putting it because independency has been the instrument in the hands of the devil whereby damage has been caused and requiring a change as indicated in verse 19 of Matthew 18. The earlier part of that chapter beginning at the 15th verse contemplates the assembly in order, but the 19th verse contemplates a change as the word "again" implies. The Lord had said "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven", and then He adds "Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them".

But the remark as to independency may need a little elaboration so that we may get an understanding of what is in mind.

Rem. I thought you were speaking of the assembly as the custodian of the testimony, and you spoke of gifts being set in the assembly. I was wondering whether you had in mind that the truth of the

assembly as having place with us would rule out freelance activities or independency either on the part of individuals or of gatherings. There would be the unifying of thought and of judgement of what is said. I was wondering if that was what you were emphasising?

J.T. Well it is. In the 12th chapter of 1 Corinthians the gifts of government are referred to but the earlier part of the chapter deals with spiritual manifestations, running down to the end of the 27th verse "Now ye are Christ's body, and members in particular". Then it adds, "And God has set certain in the assembly: first, apostles: secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers; then miraculous powers; then gifts of healings; helps; governments". I thought of calling attention to that because where difficulties arise involving the persons of the saints, the matter of government and the discernment of conditions that have caused the difficulties is so necessary. Solomon would represent that side typically. In his realm he had to deal with the persons of the Israelites and right and wrong amongst them, hence we have the judgement between the two harlots. He discerned who the mother of the child was and that idea may be extended to the assembly and the saints as in it. The motherly spirit would care for the life of the child, or as we might say, the lives of the brethren, their general welfare, and hence if conditions exist which involve the brethren, perhaps their imprisonment or their being deprived of their liberties, all that has to be dealt with. We cannot be healthy if any members are, so to say, in hospital. I do not know that the idea of a hospital applies to the assembly but certainly if any of the saints are deprived of their true position, then there is the need for adjustment, and I should think the idea of governments -- persons who understand government -- then comes into action.

Ques. I was going to ask how would the government be discerned.

J.T. Well, the question of history comes up in such an enquiry because of what may have happened, as, for instance, in Luke 13 the woman who was bent over for eighteen years. The Lord dealt with that, of course, but the assembly also has power to deal with conditions like it, and it is a question of administration, I would say, and what is discerned in my history by certain persons who can deal with such matters. We learn by history. We have already noticed that elsewhere. Troubles arise, as for instance in Israel, when Moses was enjoined to choose out seventy men to take part with him in the government. In the New Testament also the apostles according to the 6th chapter of the Acts suggested to the people that they should choose out seven men full of the Holy Spirit, persons who would be capable of meeting the emergency, which was a question of complaint on account of certain widows being neglected. The apostles said it was not for them to leave the word of God and serve tables, and they put it on the multitude to choose out seven men, well reported of and full of the Holy Spirit who could take on the matter of administration, but they were men who could be known historically as fit for the service.

Ques. Does it show that if we are to get benefit from those who teach and those who have the gift of government we should be submissive and have an open ear to what such can bring in?

J.T. I think what you suggest is very good, and do you not think what has been suggested as to history is good too. We know those who have been going on amongst us for years and which persons are most likely to be useful in any given emergency.

Rem. It says of Solomon that "all Israel heard the judgement which the king had judged; and they

feared the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do justice". (1 Kings 3:28) The thing became apparent.

J.T. Quite so.

W.H.T. Does this matter of revelation still enter into our having a right understanding of the assembly?

J.T. Well, we are dealing now in this chapter with the primary thoughts of God, what you might call the inaugural thoughts of the assembly, what the Lord had in mind as to it. He was speaking before it actually existed, because it did not actually exist until He went up to Heaven, having died and risen and the Holy Spirit having been given, because it is the descent of the Holy Spirit which constitutes the assembly.

W.H.T. What I really had in mind was the need of revelation and that there was in the assembly what would meet every question which might arise.

J.T. Well that is true. That is what was in mind in making the proposal.

P.H.H. In the second half of chapter 18 it is contemplated that there is a spirit of reckoning. Would that enter into these matters of brethren and their difficulties? Half of the section speaks about one sinning against another and so on, then later it speaks about the king who would reckon with his bondmen. Would that spirit enter into it in a practical way in regard to government? Verse 23 says "For this cause the kingdom of the heavens has become like a king who would reckon with his bondmen". Does what you are saying about governments assume that there is ability to reckon things in the assembly?

J.T. Quite so, very good. The latter part comes in obviously to augment what is already said in the 15th verse where it reads "But if thy brother sin against thee, go, reprove him between thee and him

alone. If he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother". That is what Peter evidently had in mind to enlarge on when he said "Lord how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Until seven times? Jesus says to him, I say not to thee until seven times but until seventy times seven. For this cause the kingdom of the heavens has become like a king …" -- or as the margin says 'a man a king', meaning that manly feelings would be in it and not simply kingship or kingly feeling. Solomon of course was a king, but there were these feelings of a man, as it is said in the prophets "A man shall be a hiding place …" And so having begun to reckon, one debtor of ten thousand talents was brought to him. Is what you have in mind that this king represents what is needed in government and in the administration of matters among the brethren?

P.H.H. Yes. It works out in the man; the spirit of reckoning between the king and the great debtor and then the relative situation of the great debtor to a small debtor. I wondered whether that was in line with your mind about the brethren getting help and not remaining in hospital, but getting the benefit of teaching and of the gifts of government in the assembly.

J.T. Therefore the great advantage of a kingdom, which includes the idea of adjustment of difficulties between the subjects of the kingdom, between man and man as it were. So that the assembly becomes the vessel, for the idea of the vessel comes in as in 1 Corinthians, as it says "So also is the Christ"; a remarkable expression! What would apply directly to Christ personally is evidently applied to the assembly. That is, Christ, being the great Administrator, is brought down to the idea of the assembly. It is as if the Lord Himself were adjudicating. These governments would represent Him in judgements

arrived at, and hence Matthew 18 where a matter between two brothers has arisen, we are told of the procedure that is to be entered on so as to reach a right conclusion. The assembly is the arbitrator as to what happens to the offender, the Lord saying further "but if he will not listen to them", (that is, two or three witnesses) "tell it to the assembly" -- meaning it is a last appeal, such as heaven will recognise and endorse. So that you are on sure footing for we are never driven to the wall in these difficulties. It is not contemplated that we should take months or years in settling a thing. There is a means of settlement, an authoritative means of settlement, as it says "if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer" -- meaning he is an outlaw, so far as the person who is sinned against is concerned. Then it says in the 18th verse "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven". So that we are on the surest possible footing in moving on these lines in settling matters.

S.B. How do you view the assembly here?

J.T. Well, as I have just remarked "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth" -- it is the assembly as on earth that is executing this office.

S.B. What I had in mind was whether this was the care meeting or the assembly meeting?

J.T. It is the assembly that is in mind. The care meeting would fit in with the procedure in verse 16. The care meeting is tentative and has no authority; the assembly alone has authority. The thing is finalised in the assembly.

Ques. I would like to ask whether "telling it to the assembly" refers to the assembly meeting which would be convened in a case of discipline?

J.T. Of course in Matthew 18 it is not so much

the actual composition of the assembly that is in mind. But it is seen by implication that the assembly is spoken of as a thing that is recognised in heaven, and whatever there has been prior to this it is now seen as functioning. We have to appreciate when the assembly makes a pronouncement and "if he will not hear" means that a pronouncement has been made.

Rem. In the care meeting, as has been mentioned, the deliberations are rightly in view of the assembly but the care meeting has no executive capacity, the assembly retaining that. But an assembly meeting is not convened for deliberations as all that has already taken place in the care meeting.

J.T. So that the care meeting will have to be put into verse 16 of Matthew 18. First of all it is the reproval of the man. "If thy brother sin against thee reprove him between thee and him alone". The care meeting would not have to go through all that, and it does not necessarily imply that an assembly meeting will be required, as it goes on "if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother". There is no need of a care meeting, except that the brother who has been offended is caring for the other. But the care meeting is implied when it says "But if he do not hear thee, take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three". The care meeting is tentative and the question of witnesses comes up. "But if he will not listen to them" -- that is plural -- one or two, besides the one offended. "If he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer".

J.M. You do not think that the care meeting could impose restrictions pending the finalising of a matter?

J.T. I do not think that would be right at all.

Anything that is done in that way would be on moral grounds. If a brother has sufficient moral power to speak to an offending brother and advise him authoritatively, that might be observed, but it is not final.

Ques. How far does the word "reprove" carry the matter?

J.T. Well, it would be just what the word implies. You might talk to him for an hour with that in view.

Rem. There is a note in John's gospel which says "To show the true character of anything, so as to convict, and hence reprove by showing a man's fault". Note 'e' to John 3:20.

J.T. That is a word that ought to help us all. Here in Matthew, however, it is between the two persons, "Between thee and him alone".

W.H.T. Do you consider it important and necessary for the offender to be present at the assembly meeting or at least that he should be given the opportunity of being there?

J.T. Certainly. If it is convened for disciplinary purposes in which he is involved, he ought to be there, and if he is not there he is an offender for that. If he knows the assembly meeting has been convened and he is not there and his will is in it then he is adding to the sin.

S.B. Is it not convened that he should hear them?

J.T. Quite so.

S.B. I should like to ask, could he be gained by the assembly?

J.T. Yes. The word here is "If he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations, and a tax-gatherer". The assembly would seek to gain him if possible, but the position now is more authoritative.

Ques. It is not suggested that the assembly becomes a deliberative meeting of any kind?

J.T. I do not think so. That has often come up and I am sure it is proved from historical facts among the brethren, that it is not deliberative.

Rem. So that the utmost care to do justice should enter into the deliberations of the care meeting prior to this, and if the spirit of forgiveness, to which attention has been called, is present, and if the person refuses to hear, it really increases the difficulty.

J.T. Because his will is in it.

W.W. What about the time between the care meeting and the assembly meeting? Should sisters not hear of it in that period?

J.T. There is no reason why they should not. We have scriptures that would bear on that, for instance "Let them ask their husbands at home"

W.W. But there are some sisters who have no husband.

J.T. Well, if they have fathers or brothers, or neighbours who are brothers they can ask them.

W.W. Before the assembly meeting?

J.T. I think so.

Ques. Should sisters not be conversant with the exercises of the assembly generally so that there should be no surprises?

J.T. Quite so. It is a general matter. If we are characteristically in the assembly we want to know what is current.

Ques. Is it not a remarkable thing how exercised persons do know?

J.T. Take a person like Anna in Luke 2; there are such sisters in the assembly. Well, she would want to know, no matter what it was, and she would enquire and pray accordingly, and be a great help.

S.G. Would it be proper for the brothers, as having looked into the facts of the case, to go forward

to the assembly meeting with a tentative judgement or decision?

J.T. Well, I certainly would have a judgement, and tentative is a good word. You are preserving the function of the assembly and that alone can be final.

Rem. If the offender comes to the meeting when the assembly is convened and listens to the judgement of the assembly and afterwards continues to come to the meetings and takes true ground, such a person would be recovered, would he not?

J.T. Quite so.

S.B. How does that come to light? Does it not show that there is a final voice at the assembly meeting?

J.T. There is a final voice. Each is to abide by it, particularly the offender. Here the Lord implies that it will not be so in some cases -- "if he will not listen to the assembly". The Lord implies there that certain would not listen, and that is the great difficulty usually in these cases, that the obedient ear is not there, obedience is the point and it carries us back to the principle on which the gospel is received, for it is said to be for the obedience of faith among all nations.

Ques. Does the assembly meeting furnish an occasion for the offender to speak?

J.T. I would say so. Grace reigns, and there would be a readiness to listen. If the offender had a wish to speak there is no reason why he should not. He is still in principle in the assembly because the judgement has not been pronounced. The matter is proceeding.

S.B. What would be done in the case of an assembly meeting where a sister would be involved?

J.T. She could easily intimate what is in her mind.

S.B. Could sisters do so in the assembly meeting?

J.T. Well, why not? How did the Lord act with Mary Magdalene and the woman in Samaria? He would clear them at once if the state were there and indication given that there was some judgement of the matter; but it would be done in a comely way.

S.B. I would like help as to that. I have difficulty as to how that indication may be expressed.

J.T. There are many ways in which you can intimate your mind. Why should not a sister indicate a change of mind? She can sing a hymn. Why should she not make a confession? It could be done in a suitable way.

W.A. Should there not be an expression of love in matters of this kind that are evident in the assembly. The 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians follows the 12th where governments are mentioned, and shews how love would come in to help.

J.T. Quite so. The chapters are consecutive as they are in Matthew too.

Ques. Does the word "listen" imply repentance?

J.T. it does. It is not simply that he hears but he is attentive to what is said and assenting to it too.

G.H.P. Does the opening part of verse 17 contemplate that a person might be gained at the care meeting stage and the case may not have to go to the assembly meeting at all? If so, has it particular relation to Matthew 18, or does it apply generally. I was thinking of a grievous public sin.

J.T. Well, that would have to be taken into account, because sin is graded. We have to take account of the grades, and a case such as you indicate now has to be regarded as more serious. What we were considering had become bad because of his refusal to listen. What you contemplate is something which has happened outside.

Ques. Does it mean in the setting here that the

offender is only to be seen once, or is there to be a continued effort to gain him before finally going to the assembly?

J.T. I am sure patience would enter into that. Another thing which should be noted is the procedure in Leviticus 14 as to leprosy. How much patience is shewn by the priest in visiting the person who has got the disease! It is remarkable the amount of holy scripture that is allotted to this matter of leprosy, two chapters (13th and 14th) being devoted to it, and that is what is suggested now, that there ought to be plenty of patience.

S.G. In relation to the priest shutting the man up, without bringing it to the care meeting, is there any way in which he could bring in a modified measure of restriction in view of saving the brother before it goes to the accustomed place, viz. the assembly meeting?

J.T. Well, of course, the law of leprosy implies that the person is restricted while leprosy is at work. But then another thing that arises is that it is never suggested that there is no priest. That perhaps is the difficulty -- the absence of priestly state. These two chapters in Leviticus do not suggest there is no priest -- there is always a priest.

S.G. Would that priest be present at the care meeting?

J.T. Definitely; he should be present, and the offender too.

S.G. Could there be any restriction by the care meeting?

J.T. The care meeting has no authority to impose anything.

S.G. Supposing the care meeting put a ban of silence upon a brother, what would you say?

J.T. I would say that it was not right.

Ques. Will you help us as to Leviticus in regard

to this matter because that is a scripture that has been in mind, that the person there who has been in trouble is restricted.

J.T. Well, that is so, if there is evidence of guilt, evidence of leprosy, but then there is not always such evidence.

Ques. Would not the evidence be seen in a wilful spirit?

J.T. Well, quite so. But what are you going to do with him? The will might be just for a moment and pass away. I think the procedure here in Matthew 18 is the thing to go by, that we have to wait for the assembly to act authoritatively.

Rem. In regard to Leviticus, if the procedure already mentioned had been carried out and there had been deliberation, over a long period, resulting in the brothers in care deciding that the matter should go to an assembly meeting, would you regard it as very unusual that the person who had so much time and opportunity to repent should only repent in the short space of time between the care meeting and the calling of the assembly meeting. Would not that enter into the history of which you have spoken? It would seem to be unusual for such a drastic change to take place, although we should have to allow for the possibility.

J.T. We would have to allow that it is possible. So that when Peter says "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? until seven times? Jesus says to him, I say not to thee until seven times, but until seventy times seven". I am referring to this to show the principle of forgiveness. This word of the Lord's has to be kept in mind and we have all to look into our hearts and see where we are. This whole paragraph refers to the matter of forgiveness. Why should there be prolonged conditions of restriction on brethren? Why should not

grace bring about something? We may put people into prison and keep them there, and it may be because of that they are not getting on in their souls.

S.G. I would like further help as to the difference between the priest shutting up the man and the inability of the care meeting to restrict. I would like to see the difference.

J.T. I would say there is some relation between the care meeting and the priest. Leviticus is, of course the priestly book and therefore it is a question of the priests, not the care meeting. If the leaders in the care meeting are priestly you will reach some end, but if there is some wrong principle governing them, or feeling, we reach nothing.

Ques. Is the priest spirituality?

J.T. Yes, and intelligence.

H.B. Would the priest shutting up correspond with the moral and spiritual advice to the brother that would restrain him from activity rather than an authoritative action?

J.T. Quite so. Therefore the priest is the leading thought in all this. We are dependent on the understanding of priesthood in order to meet it. We often refer to Galatians 6:1. "Ye who are spiritual restore such a one". You may say that is the care meeting, but it is not the care meeting. Everyone in the care meeting may not be spiritual. Therefore we are driven to the idea of spirituality, and those in the lead ought to be spiritual and to influence all the others so that the priestly idea is dominant in the care meeting.

Ques. Would not the one that we call an offender be called upon to listen to that?

J.T. Quite so. But that is not the assembly, which has its own place. You cannot restrict a man because you are in the care meeting. The care meeting does not do that. It is a question of the

priest, and hence when you come to actual disciplinary action you must have the assembly.

S.G. Would the priestly action come in on individual lines like Paul to Peter in the occasion when he was remiss?

J.T. Yes, it would. The care meeting has a great place, but it is always tentative and looks towards the assembly for any action.

W.R.M. Can one who is in fellowship be deprived of any one of the privileges of the fellowship?

J.T. The question is what the word fellowship means. If the word means what it normally means, he should not be deprived. He belongs to it. He has entered by the gates into the city. Entering in by the gates means you have a right to partake of the tree of life.

Rem. I was wondering whether sometimes we get into a difficulty by avoiding a ban officially by the assembly but doing the thing tacitly by inference. Would you agree with that?

J.T. Quite so. If the brother is free from what you might call blame, or even what we get in 2 Thessalonians where you have the idea of restraint perhaps in the brethren, he is in fellowship. "Admonish him as a brother" the apostle says. Well, if he is to be treated as a brother the privileges of the assembly belong to him.

S.B. It might be thought that what you have said about the authority of the assembly in this final stage would somewhat encourage the offender, but does it not put him in a more serious position in regard to the assembly?

J.T. It certainly does. The assembly is intended to be custodian of all that God has down here and that is what we are dealing with, and Matthew 18 augments and clarifies it from our side. Peter is mentioned as having the keys of the kingdom and

that is for the protection of the assembly, "On this rock I will build my assembly and hades' gates shall not prevail against it".

S.B. Would that be why there is no mention of forgiveness being exercised?

J.T. Well, it is, and the function of the assembly, the authority and power of the assembly appears, taking care of what is of God and including persons breaking bread. So the assembly can go on. The brother's position is clarified.

R.McG. If the thought of the brother being recovered is taken account of fully, has his past history to be kept in mind? I was thinking of what has been said as to history, that we have to take account of it if a brother offends, and even if it has got to come before the assembly, but if he has been restored would you have to bring up his past history after that?

J.T. No, why should you? He is restored.

Rem. So old scores are not to be paid off. Justice is mentioned so many times in relation to Solomon. It is the idea of a wise and understanding heart and largeness of heart -- a word to all who have to exercise government in any measure.

J.T. First it is the kingdom and then it is the house itself. We should look at the saints, not simply as the kingdom, but as the house. How beautifully Solomon went up to the house of the Lord -- the manner of his going up! That is what is in mind in Matthew. The kingdom is available for that purpose. So that there should be such a beautiful scene as in 1 Kings 10 where the queen of Sheba came up. That is the idea of the testimony.

Ques. Can the assembly meeting take a lesser action than withdrawal, can it impose restrictions without withdrawing from a person? I was thinking of the question that was asked about a care meeting

imposing a ban of silence which you would disallow, but could the assembly meeting do that?

J.T. Well, I don't know. I recognise restriction, but the assembly can do that -- not the care meeting.

Jno.G. I would like to ask, if it is not diverting, would we be justified in showing any measure of reserve towards a person who has given concern before the assembly takes authoritative action?

J.T. I would say yes. Certain things are required and the brother should commit himself to them. It is not desired to excommunicate or put the brother or sister away, yet the circumstances in his history are such that there should be restraint -- he should feel he is under restraint -- but the assembly has its place in the matter -- it is the assembly that is doing it.

Jno.G. I was thinking of one, say, who has given concern to the saints. Ought we to maintain our relations just as with any other saint until the assembly takes authoritative action, say withdrawal?

J.T. Well, that would be a question of the priest, and of course I do not know how it would work out in your case. You are the person involved -- how would it work out?

Jno.G. I am not sure it you have got what is in mind. If one is giving concern and is before the saints in care capacity, should we maintain our relations towards him or her as with any other of the saints who are going on well until the assembly takes action of withdrawal?

J.T. I would think so. The priestly element would help us and that element should be in the assembly. If it is not there you cannot talk about the assembly, but if it be there the brethren concerned would understand, and yet nothing is done authoritatively, for the priestly side is a question of the Spirit of God operating in our souls.

Rem. Withdrawal is emphasised in 2 Thessalonians 3:6

"Now we enjoin you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the instruction which he received from us".

J.T. Well, there might be that. I would say that the passage in 2 Thessalonians 3:6, would bear on this point. There is a distinction between that and 1 Corinthians chapter 5 where you have actual withdrawal; that is, it is putting away or removal.

Jno.G. That is in relation to an individual. Could we extend the principle to a company?

J.T. Well, I don't know. You mean, I suppose, something has gone wrong in a local meeting and it has become leavened?

Jno.G. I mean, if a locality is not going on well, perhaps it is considered that there is unjudged evil there, would the saints in surrounding gatherings maintain a measure of outward reserve until that would be judged?

J.T. Well, I am not so sure about that. There has been history amongst the brethren which has afforded much help as to matters of that kind, such as the Ryde trouble. The assembly there was held by certain meetings to be leprous. Brethren were for a time uncertain about the condition at Ryde, but at any rate it was still acknowledged to be an assembly. It was made clear at the time that so long as an assembly is acknowledged as in fellowship, it has all the privileges of the assembly and any brother is free to go there. It took quite a long time for all this to emerge but the position was as stated. It applies to what you are raising now and we have to be clear that if an assembly is recognised as in fellowship there can be no restriction on anyone visiting it. We have to wait for some authoritative person or persons or assembly to pronounce as before God a judgement on the situation.

Ques. In that connection I would like to ask a question. If there is a gathering in which there is a measure of difficulty which is known, is it within the jurisdiction of a neighbouring meeting to request others to keep away from that meeting?

J.T. I think not. The matter is serious. It is a matter for heaven, and heaven acts through the priest here.

Rem. So that a priestly person with the good of the saints heart, and a little food supply, should not be restricted from going to the place to help.

J.T. Certainly not. How are they going to get help? History helps us and we have the case of Glanton to guide us as to this matter. Such things are part of our experience and should help us in other things like them.

Jno.G. Supposing that help has been tried for a long time and there is still no improvement of conditions, what then?

J.T. Well, I would say the surrounding gatherings are in question if they cannot help. We had it at Newcastle, and the Lord came in and set the thing right. There was will at work, not only in the assembly concerned but also in the assemblies around. A whole district may be affected. One could cite many other similar cases.

Rem. If a meeting has assembly status you would avoid any activity or suggestion that would weaken that as long as it continued.

J.T. Quite so. There is no suggestion in Paul's letters that the meetings in Galatia should be abandoned or that brethren should keep away from them. Likewise there is no suggestion that the gatherings around should avoid Corinth.

Jno.G. What constitutes assembly status in that setting?

J.T. Well, so long as the Spirit of God is there and

there is no evidence that He has been set aside. If the Spirit of God is quenched then I would say that that company is undeserving of recognition as an assembly. But Paul did not say that of Corinth or of the Galatian assemblies.

Ques. If in a small meeting a case of judgement arises and they have no gifts of government in that meeting, what will they do?

J.T. Well, I don't know. You would have to show that it was so. You are speaking now abstractly.

Rem. I am thinking of some of the smaller gatherings and a difficult case arising and no actual gift of government in that locality.

J.T. Well, what about the second part of Matthew 18, which contemplates only two or three. It does not contemplate the gift of government -- it contemplates brethren who gather unto the name of the Lord. "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". And the previous verse says that "if two of you", (meaning two of the assembly) "shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens". Therefore what you enquire about is implied in these two verses. There is no question of gift. It is "two of you" or "two or three". It is simply the persons -- the personnel of the assembly, and they agree in prayer about a thing and they meet together, two or three of them, and the Lord says "I am with you". In the latter verse the Lord says He is with them, and in the former God answers their prayer. If you have two or three who are characteristically of the assembly, or two who pray -- the same remark applies, why cannot the matter be settled?

S.B. What if the two do not agree?

J.T. They do here. If even two out of twenty or out of a hundred agree, the Father will act.

S.B. If they are three and three, what then?

J.T. The three, if they are right, will get support from God. Heaven recognises such persons, however few. The persons have to be taken care of, and heaven knows the persons. The Merarites in their levitical service were to take care of the persons. If there are three wrong and three right, the three right will be heard in heaven.

S.G. If the three and three continue in deadlock for a long time until eventually there is an appeal to a nearby meeting, and the nearby meeting acts in a certain measure towards it, how should we be regulated as surrounding the locality?

J.T. The nearby meeting may not be right.

Ques. "Unto my name" would be important. Would not that diminish any petty feeling, and completely eliminate personal prejudice?

J.T. Quite so. It says "Two of you", and again "Unto my name". Heaven recognises what is there.

S.G. If the nearby meeting has all the facts and others have not, are the latter not at a disadvantage?

J.T. Why have the others not the facts? If they are there nearby and acting in a neighbourly way in accordance with Deuteronomy 21, why have they not the facts? They are there to be had, surely.

Rem. You cannot get the facts if you stay away from the place.

J.T. Quite so. If any nearby brethren want to help, let them go where the thing has happened.

Rem. They should bring in help where the trouble is.

J.T. Quite so. According to Matthew 18, the thing ought to be brought before the assembly. If the assembly exists characteristically the thing ought to be brought to them.

Ques. Does that entail that there should be two or three witnesses?

J.T. Well, there was only one in the days of Abigail; one of Nabal's young men brought the testimony to Abigail about what happened, and that brought the matter to a settlement. Lay it before the assembly. We are not told how many are to do it. The word is, "tell it to the assembly". The brother who was offended in Matthew 18 was to tell it to the assembly. No matter how many there are who are not of the same mind, he is doing what is right.

F.B. What you brought before us recently was that the basic thought in the assembly is love -- I suppose it is the lack of love that causes trouble?

J.T. Love never fails. I am certain that love, if it existed, would never allow an issue to be carried over years or months. It never fails. This verse contemplates two conditions that heaven recognises. First, two saints agreed, and second, praying to God. Heaven recognises them -- the Father does and answers it for them -- not for the assembly -- for them.

Ques. Would we be quick to act if we were conscious of the fact that if one member suffers the others suffer with it.

J.T. Quite so, and that is the skill with which Paul wrote his letters to Corinth. The 13th chapter is the great chapter of love. It never fails. The whole chapter is about love.

Rem. I suppose the Corinthians did not know that Paul wrote his first epistle with many tears?

J.T. Quite so.

A PROPHET'S COMING AS REPRESENTING THE LORD

1 Corinthians 11:34 (last clause); Matthew 16:1 - 2; 1 Timothy 4:13 - 16

It will be observed, dear brethren, that the apostle in all these passages speaks of his coming. He is not speaking of the Lord's coming but of his own, which in some sense is like the Lord's coming for he peculiarly represented the Lord both in love and in intelligence. We read of Samuel in his day that he had a circuit. He is a similar servant, though perhaps in a way not so great, and he covered his circuit annually. His coming to a certain place would in a way represent Jehovah. We know from the narrative of his life and ministry that coming to any place he would cause a stir, cause an interest, and so it was that the land in principle was influenced for good and for order and all that was becoming to the kingdom by the annual circuit made by the prophet Samuel. God had given him a great place amongst the people so that it says "… Jehovah was with him, and let none of his words fall to the ground. And all Israel, from Dan even to Beer-sheba, knew that Samuel was established a prophet of Jehovah". (1 Samuel 3:19 - 20) A prophet is not simply one who can foretell future events, but one who can bring God into localities and bring His mind to persons. Now the apostle Paul is not formally said to have a circuit, yet he reminds the Corinthians and he tells Timothy of his coming and I have read these verses in this connection. The first scripture bears upon the order of the Lord's Supper, the apostle having said much as to it in this chapter which ends up with the word "And the rest will I set in order when I come". Thus they were to understand that Paul would come not as an ordinary brother, an ordinary visitor or as an ordinary servant, but as an

apostle. Indeed he sends word beforehand as to how he should come, saying "What will ye? That I come to you with a rod; or in love, and in a spirit of meekness?" I need not say that I believe he would come in love, even with a rod. So evidently he had in mind that they needed to be told concerning other things as well as the Lord's Supper, such as headship -- Christ the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God. But I am thinking now particularly of the Lord's Supper, not indeed that much is not needed in regard to headship, for there is very much needed as to that point. That is that the idea of headship descends from God to Christ, and from Christ to man and from the man to the woman. There certainly is much to be said -- and much has been said -- about that and there never seems to be any end to it. That is not for any credit to us that we are so long in taking in this great truth of headship.

Now I speak of the Lord's Supper. I can only devote a certain time to each scripture -- to each subject. The next is the collection in chapter 16. The apostle, you will observe, speaks of that saying that there should be no collections when he came. Then in Timothy what is in mind in regard to the portion read is the servants -- a matter of which we have spoken much recently. That is to say, it is a question of instruction to servants, whatever the character of the service might be. It is persons who have gift, the passage speaking of such and there are those still.

Now referring to the Lord's Supper we spoke of it last evening in this city as bearing upon quick learning -- the importance of learning divine things quickly. Not simply to get over them quickly but to learn them properly. Not to be as those who are always learning and never able to come to the

knowledge of the truth. The Christian way of learning is set out in Nathanael who represents one who is exercised -- a good word to use as to divine things. There is no need that we should continue in uncertainty but as we said about Paul, he is told not to tarry but to arise and wash away his sins. One is damaged by sin attaching to him. He may be forgiven in the ordinary sense, for forgiveness is preached and is not something to which we attain, but then to wash away our sins is an action of our own and we ought not to delay doing so and thus deprive ourselves of Christian fellowship and all its privileges. So the word is "And now why lingerest thou? Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away, calling on his name", Acts 22:16. That was the word to Paul then and it is the word to us now, and there is no soul progress until it is done. The Lord has done things for us that we cannot do but then He leaves certain things for us to do and it is a moral necessity attaching to us, and especially if we are affected by sin in any sense, whether it be in our commercial relations, or in a social way or in a religious sense, we may be tainted, by sins in some form and it is our duty to see that they are washed away. I cannot provide the answer to every question that may be in the minds of brethren but if a word be given out it is for us to learn from it and, if we are hindered by sin which so easily besets us, that has to be washed away and we are to call upon His name. We can only hope to effect this by calling upon the Lord's name. He helps us.

I have referred to the necessity of the Lord's Supper, and before taking that up we must be cleansed -- it is the washing of water by the word which involves cleansing. Then following upon baptism we have the Lord's Supper. So Ananias told Saul to arise and have his sins washed away. Why should we delay on

such a point and deprive ourselves thus of the great privilege of the Lord's Supper? Baptism goes before that. So having our souls cleansed and as it says our bodies washed with pure water, that is the water of the word -- the word of God in its moral bearing washes away from us ourselves and our circumstances and our sins. We do so calling on His name. The truth of baptism is developed in Romans and we have it elsewhere too. Peter refers to it telling us that baptism saves. I am quoting Peter now, not Paul, where he says "… into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: which figure also now saves you, even baptism …" 1 Peter 3:20. It is one thing to be saved by fire but we are also said to be saved by water, and that is a question of the moral bearing of the death of Christ upon everything we do. What follows upon that is the Lord's Supper. Why should I deprive myself of the Lord's Supper and the holy fellowship of God's Son, the fellowship of the Spirit too and the fellowship of Christ's death? Why should I deprive myself of these great matters? It is obvious that we should not, and I believe that Paul has such things in mind when he says, "The rest will I set in order when I come".

Now you will understand by what I have said as to similar persons how a man like Paul, an apostle, would affect the saints as he came to a place. He had been to Corinth and had remained there for eighteen months, and yet after he left he had to write as he does. Things had arisen in his absence that had not come to light when he was there, for if they had he would have restrained and restricted them. So he writes this first epistle and the second half of this 11th chapter refers to the Lord's Supper. If there are those within the sound of my voice who are partaking of the Supper, one would urge you to look into the matter and see if there are not some things to do in

your case. You may say, But there is no one here like Paul or like Samuel. Well, there are gifted men here, and the gifts have come down from above the heavens as it says "… who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things; and he has given some apostles, and some prophets and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers …" (Ephesians 4:11). There are such -- not apostles, of course -- but I cannot say that there are no prophets. You may say, I have never met a prophet. Perhaps not, but in the sense in which I am speaking you may have, and if you have and have not been moved, then the Lord will have to say to you. You will understand I am not speaking of prophets as foretelling things, but speaking of those who represent the Lord, which Paul did more than most; persons who represent the principle of care and authority and who on the Lord's behalf come into your circumstances and into mine with the intention to move us as to our condition and conduct and associations. The question is, am I going to move? The apostle meant that there would be things that would have to be done when he came, and that is why I read this passage. For the principle is that we should be an influence for good amongst the brethren and as helped by the Spirit of God to affect them Godward and Christward and saintward so that things may be right. That was a great matter with the apostle -- the setting of things right; not only converting people and the forming of assemblies but the setting of assemblies right. They were to be affected if anything of this kind comes in and things are not settled. I could continue speaking about the Lord's Supper which is dealt with in this chapter from verse 23. I would ask are there any here who are not partaking of it; if so, why are you not? The apostle is saying certain things here, really it is the Lord's word as he says elsewhere, "If anyone thinks

himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", (1 Corinthians 14:37). That is what this epistle to the Corinthians is, and therefore as reading it an obligation is put upon each of us to move in relation to the truth ministered, and if there is anything to correct or adjust in my body, in my personal condition, or in my family or my business or in the assembly, if there is anything to correct it is time to move. No matter how simple a word may be we should hear it and accept the obligation to judge ourselves. Some of us will have the privilege of partaking of the Lord's Supper tomorrow, and what a privilege it is! How much it is to Christ for His saints to come together in assembly to partake of the Supper! The Corinthians, as we know, did not do so properly and hence the apostle writes to them as he does, saying here "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep", (1 Corinthians 11:30). It was because of their conduct at the Lord's Supper that many were weak and infirm. Then he says to them, if there by anything wrong for them to judge it. We are not to wait for a month or a year, but we should judge the thing at once. So we ought to judge ourselves at once and not wait to be put out of fellowship, but as it says here "But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup". So the thing is to get the matter settled. God has set up a wonderful system of things with Christ above and the Holy Spirit here, and there is infinite power in Divine Persons to settle matters, and so we should continue to eat the Lord's Supper.

Now the next thing is the collection, which likewise involves love. Corinth was a long way off from Judea and the saints at Corinth were about to make a collection for these saints who were afar off, and that

is love. They had never met them. It is no philanthropic matter, it is a love matter and it is to be expressed now not in the Lord's Supper but in the giving of the saints. There is not much need now, thank God, for wages are high; but big wages may become a curse, money may become a curse. Love's challenge here is the giving of the saints -- the collection -- and the brethren act together. We have instructions in the scriptures for giving individually. Persons who are well off are to give according to the teaching of Acts 11. So as in that position we can give as much as we like and as we can. It is not assembly giving but persons who are well off. There are not now many such but nevertheless this is a word for them. If there are those who are well off the idea is to use the excess for the relief of the saints. Heaven will make much of it, and it will render a return more than any bank will give. So in Acts 11 these well known servants, Barnabas and Saul, are selected to carry this money to the saints. It is a beautiful touch which God gives for His ancient people, stirring up the hearts of these converts among the Gentiles to think of them in this practical way. The apostles Peter, James and John, it will be recalled, were concerned that Paul should not forget the poor Jews. God has them in His heart yet, whatever men may do to them, and they have done some terrible things during recent years. But they are in God's hand and the word is "So all Israel shall be saved", (Romans 11:26). It is the Israel of God and they must be saved. The word would apply to persons not yet converted, perhaps, and yet God thinks of them and has them in His heart. So the collection here in Acts was for the poor saints in Jerusalem, they are not Jews exactly. The Lord's word to Judas was "ye have the poor always with you", (John 12:8). Judas thought of them then when

the Lord was enjoying a love feast with His own. He brought them in at the wrong time. Judas is never right -- a man like that is always wrong. So Paul says as to remembering the poor, "which same thing also I was diligent to do", (Galatians 2:10). I mention all this now because I believe it represents this great feature of love in our hearts for persons whom we have not seen. It is a question of giving to the saints on the earth, the excellent, of whom the Lord says, "In them is all my delight". (Psalm 16:3). Now the word here is concerning the collection for the saints. The apostle says "as I directed the assemblies of Galatia, so do ye do also. On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come", (1 Corinthians 16:1 - 2). I am reading from the New Translation which many of us here have in our possession. It is the best translation of the Bible in the English language. One feels protected by it because of the inaccuracies of the Authorised Version, not that I would belittle that version, but the New Translation is the best. In regard to these verses just quoted from the 16th chapter of 1 Corinthians, there is not much to be added now, for there is not much time, except to say that we are in our minds moved back from the truth of the Lord's Supper which is in an assembly setting, to the home. The word 'home' is used by the apostle here in connection with the collection. He regards the saints as in their families. Heaven has great regard for the saints as in their families -- the fathers and mothers, sons and daughters and brothers and sisters. Heaven has great delight in the children in that they are brought up in relation to the testimony, like the house of Stephanas referred to later in the chapter, who devoted themselves to the saints for service. That gives the household a wonderful place and every

child is in mind, and each ought to be able to do something for the saints. The very name saint becomes a known name in the vocabulary of the child in the Christian household. So the apostle says here "laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered". The word "concerning" (chapter 16:1) refers to a letter they had written to the apostle or to a matter which would be understood among the brethren. So he says "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the assemblies of Galatia, so do ye do also". We learn from this as from the earlier reference of the apostle in chapter 7:17 -- "and thus I ordain in all the assemblies" -- that whatever the principles, or practices or customs amongst the brethren, they are to be all alike. The idea of a congregation is foreign to Christianity. Individual assemblies, each independent of the other is not according to God. The assembly of God is one and it can be viewed either in a local or universal way. I am speaking of the universal thought now as the apostle says "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", and so in 1 Corinthians 16 the home is referred to. The Christian home should be adorned and sanctified -- that is a great matter. The houses of the brethren should be sanctified and all in them should be brought into things. The children of Christian parents, according to chapter 7 of this epistle are already sanctified as born. So you see how tender the thing is and how the young should be handled with care -- like as with the Lord Jesus when He took the infants into His arms and blessed them. So the word in verse 2 is "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree ha may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come". You may say that may seem a very insignificant thing, but it is very important from the stand point of the truth of which I am speaking. The

apostle had a great place and great influence in the assembly; his name was revered amongst them and hence the effect his coming would have upon them. He refers to it also in the second epistle and there we see his coming would be dreaded too, at least by some. He said there that if he should come again he would not spare (2 Corinthians 13:2) and he spoke too earlier of coming with a rod, so in a sense they might well dread his coming. And if we are going on with something not right something like this will come in.

So here it is a question of the collection and of ministering to those who are gifted and who help in relation to the truth. These are important things and so the apostle says here, I did not influence you at all as to giving money -- but I am doing it in a letter. He reminds them of the authority he had and there are several instances where attention is called to the authority Paul had, and which he exercised to discipline them. He brings in the rod to reach them if necessary. So Paul says here, In approaching you in this matter of giving I leave it to yourselves. It is a question of bringing out what a brother has in himself. It is a question of love for God bringing out what love is. In the 13th chapter of this epistle how much is said about love, and that is the point I am dealing with now. It is the point too in the Lord's Supper. What love enters into that occasion! And here love enters into the giving -- whether I am giving little or giving much it is a question of love. We read that the Lord sat over against the treasury; that shews that His attitude was one of deliberation; He was noting how they gave. There was one who gave little, but the Lord says that she gave all. I could go to chapters 8 and 9 of the second letter to the Corinthians which deal further with this matter of giving but I trust you will all go through those two chapters which

enlarge on this matter. We see in all this the stress that Paul lays on this matter of giving but he says here, I am not going to urge giving when I am there; I do not want any collections when I come. It is a great matter for servants to be skilful, that is not only what we say but why we say the things. It is a question of saying the right thing at the right time, and this is what Paul says now. I am not going to influence you in this matter but I leave it with you. This is Christianity, that each Christian is shining like Christ, as it says in Philippians 1:19 "the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ". The apostle here in the second letter to the Corinthians refers to the assemblies of Macedonia and to the extent of their giving, and he desired that the Corinthians might do better. His presence amongst them would bring that out. The Corinthians were his own converts and he says to them, I have you in my heart continually. Wherever he went he would speak well of them, and in writing to them he says "Ye are our letter" -- 2 Corinthians 3:2 -- and yet in truth they were very naughty, at least some of them were. But the apostle knew how to clothe them according to his love for them, but he never overlooked their naughtiness, for he says later to them "And having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled". 2 Corinthians 10:6. That would include the matter of the collection, of the giving of the saints, which the apostle writes about and to which he would look for a response.

I will now say a little as to the verse read in Timothy: "Till I come, give thyself to reading, to exhortation, to teaching. Be not negligent of the gift that is in thee, which has been given to thee through prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the elderhood. Occupy thyself with these things; be wholly in them, that thy progress may be manifest to all. Give

heed to thyself and to the teaching; continue in them; for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee". This word is to Timothy. Paul had said of him "For I have no one like-minded who will care with genuine feeling how ye get on", Philippians 2:20. Timothy had a care and feeling for the saints on that line, but Paul wanted him to be helped and wrote this epistle to him. So he says here, "Till I come, give thyself to reading, to exhortation, to teaching. Be not negligent of the gift that is in thee, which has been given to thee through prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the elderhood. Occupy thyself with these things; be wholly in them, that thy progress may be manifest to all. Give heed to thyself and to the teaching; continue in them; for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee". Now this word is to be understood for it is the outcome of a servant's service and ministry. So this whole passage is now to the dear brethren here in the ministry. You will understand what I mean by that phrase. It is a question of the Levites, those who come under the influence of Eleazar who is spoken of as the prince of the princes of the Levites. He would have great influence and it is a question of spiritual expression and influence as we are near the Lord and become like Him. It is a spiritual matter I am speaking about. One has remarked both in this country and in America, in all parts where brethren are found, there is a remarkable movement in the number of young and middle-aged men coming into service. Those who are older are thankful that the work is thus going on. One generation passeth away and another generation cometh, and this particular verse in Timothy is a word for the coming generation, as having ability to carry on the work. This is what the apostle had in mind when he says, "Till I come give thyself to reading ..." It may be public reading

or in private, but it is reading. That is the point to have before us. What do we read? Read the scriptures above all else. Paul speaks of books -- of his own, books he intended to read. There are books which are profitable for ministry and as well they are for the help of the saints. We can thank God for the books that the Lord has left for us to read -- there are many such and then there are the books that are still being issued for the saints and these too are from the Lord. They are books of ministry, for that is the proper word for them. So Timothy is told to give attention to reading -- a wholesome word. It suggests to me that the brethren need to read. We have the Bible and we should read it above all others. Paul says as to Timothy, "From a child thou hast known the sacred letters ..."2 Timothy 3:15. The children should make themselves familiar with the scriptures and then when they come to the meetings -- meetings such as these -- we know what is being talked about. I am urging the young to give attention to reading.

The next word is exhortation -- it would, of course, have peculiar force in the case of a man like Timothy, but we should all learn to be in exercise in relation to the meeting for ministry, learning to give a word of exhortation on such occasions. God has been pleased to revive meetings of this character where prophecy is ministered. No one need say that it is not so, for I know it is and have heard ministry on such occasions which brought God to our souls in spiritual power. In connection with meetings of this kind we are told in 1 Corinthians 14 that some unbeliever or simple person coming into a Christian assembly and hearing prophetic ministry, falls down and does homage to God in the presence of it. "He is judged of all"; it says, "the secrets of his heart are manifested". He is searched through and through like the woman of Samaria, who says as to the Lord "Who told me all things I had ever

done". So the man in Corinthians reports that God is indeed amongst us. By meetings of this character we are adjusted -- for that is the thought in the word of exhortation.

Then we have teaching. There are things which follow the meeting for ministry in which the Spirit of God is free to bring forward spiritual ministry -- ministry that will be authoritatively supported by the Spirit of God and the scriptures. There is to be nothing less.

Further it adds "Be not negligent of the gift that is in thee, which has been given to thee through prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the elderhood". Whatever you may have got in the form of gift, see that you do not neglect it. The thing is to use it and you will get increase. It is remarkable that a man like Timothy has to be exhorted not to neglect the gift that he had. So that even distinguished servants may have some defects but it is not for me to enlarge on that now. So Paul says to Timothy, "Be not negligent of the gift that is in thee, which has been given to thee through prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the elderhood". It is the hands of the elder brethren. Apostolic hands had been laid on Timothy too, but it is not that here. He refers here to the elderhood -- these are elder brethren whom at that time heaven recognised and they imparted gift to Timothy by the laying on of hands. Such is Christianity as it was and we are bringing those thoughts down to what we are now.

Then he says, "Occupy thyself with these things; be wholly in them, that thy progress may be manifest to all". Let this be a word to all of us here who are ministering. That we are really gifted men provided of God for the needs of His people at the present time. "Give heed to thyself and to the teaching". He is to watch himself. He is to be looked after himself. A

very important word. How much we can do as to ourselves. We are to see to it in this matter that we do not neglect to fast. I have to take heed to myself -- to watch that things that do not help me are not allowed a place but are refused and avoided. "Give heed to thyself and to the teaching; continue in them; for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee". You can see how spiritual things spread out -- how they become enlarged as we let them have a place with us for there is no end to divine things. Let us not forget that there is much for each of us in these things.

May God bless the word.

ADMINISTRATION AS CONNECTED WITH THE LORD'S SUPPER

Luke 22:14: John 20:14 - 18

J.T. The verse which has been read in Luke was in mind as calling attention to administration in connection with the Lord's Supper, and then we shall see in John 20 how the feminine side is opened up as the Lord is known as risen, with a view to the assembly femininely, referring particularly to Revelation 21 where she is seen coming down as a bride adorned for her husband. She comes out of heaven. The incident read in Luke is found also in Matthew and Mark. Matthew 26:20 says "When the evening was come he lay down at table with the twelve"; Mark 14:17 mentions that "He comes with the twelve". Then Luke 22:14 "When the hour was come, he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him". The three synoptic gospels referring thus to the twelve has a voice as to administration, seen particularly in Matthew and Mark, and then Luke adding the thought of authority in the administration, the apostles being mentioned. These passages would show that administration enters into the Lord's Supper, not particularly, however, at the time of the celebration of it, although it must be there too, but as entering into the general constitution of the assembly. Peter being appointed by our Lord as having the keys of the kingdom, and the allusions to what heaven endorses in apostolic service refer to it. John 20 speaks of the Lord breathing into the disciples and saying to them "Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained". Heaven is brought in in Matthew. "Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven". Hence the idea being linked up with heaven suggests

the continuance of the assembly in character to the end, for heaven has not changed its mind because of any failure. Especially is this so in Matthew where this is seen in the answer to any two who pray as united, any two of the assembly -- things are done for them, as it says, "It shall be done for them". Although we have the sisters in all the gospels at the resurrection, the feminine side is seen in John's gospel particularly. The Lord had said in Matthew that they would see Him in Galilee. He sent a message of that kind to them. But in John it is a teaching message although the gift of teaching is not implied, but the teaching is there, involving the family. The feminine side of things would enter into the message, and involves that it is carried down and comes out in the heavenly city.

P.H.H. When you speak of administration in regard of the earlier scriptures, have you in mind that certain things are handed down to us right to the end and with authority?

J.T. Yes, I think that is important to keep in mind because the Lord sees to that, and then as a feminine element he would maintain that, and the epistles, especially Paul's epistles, as well as the Acts, show that the feminine element was carried down. It began at the resurrection and is formally linked up, according to the passage read, with Christ risen. So in Acts 1 where we have the apostles -- that is all that remained in the upper room -- we have Mary there, "several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus". And throughout we have the feminine side, as if it were not simply in a general way meeting conditions as they arose, but the primary thought of God as to the assembly. He had in mind that it should come out in a feminine way as we learn in Revelation 21 verses 1 and 2 -- "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed

away, and the sea exists no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". This is not simply a millennial scene; it is an eternal scene, answering to the primary mind and counsels of God, that the feminine idea should be linked up in a great system in the heavens which should abide.

Ques. Would the administrative side be seen in the next reference to the city in Revelation 21:9. "Come here, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". Is that an administrative idea?

J.T. I think so, although connected with the millennial scene, which is important too, because the types support it. Rebecca was brought into Sarah's tent and she appears as a type of the heavenly city. She had a part in Sarah's tent, and would be thus formed in relation to God's purposes as to Israel. The millennium, of course, is marked by that. The number twelve appears in connection with the gates of the city, as we have in the 12th verse "having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel". That would be the city viewed in its millennial relations. But the first reference to the city in Revelation 21 would correspond with the history of God's counsels and would be found in measure in the book of Proverbs, which shows that it is a question of men. Wisdom's delights are with the sons of men. In the historical order of God's counsels, (the word 'historical' calls for the beginning) the twelve tribes of Israel are not there. They come in as an after-thought, so to speak, and evidently not to continue eternally. But there must be something which is to have influence on us now in the interim between the appearing of the twelve tribes in the 29th of Genesis and the appearing

of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel in the heavenly city as connected with the millennium. There must be something for us now in the stress as to twelve, entering into the historic number, that is, entering into Christianity.

H.B. What part, then, does the feminine side have in the administration of the assembly today, and how does it work out?

J.T. Well, I think in the mind of God it works out in a modified sense. It softens the masculine side. This appears too in the history of the nations. The idea of the feminine in government runs right through many nations. It is seen in Israel "upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir", and in many instances we find it in the history or government of the world as Israel is set aside. The feminine is carried down as in Esther.

S.G. I was going to ask you about Psalm 45 which is entitled "A song of the Beloved". "King's daughters are among thine honourable women; upon thy right hand doth stand the queen in gold of Ophir". Does that fit in?

J.T. She is seen there in connection with Christ as the Messiah -- on His right hand doth stand the queen; but later in the psalm the feminine side is seen in "daughters". The psalm supports the idea of the influence of a softening element which God intended should be in government. The thought of dominion was seen in Adam and Eve and that is carried through.

M.A.W. Is it seen in the case of the prophet Nehemiah where he approaches the king, and it says, "The queen also sitting by him", Nehemiah 2:6?

J.T. That is an illustration of the matter. The queen was there. She says nothing but it was important in Nehemiah's eyes anyway. It was a critical time for him -- for Israel, as to how matters

would stand. Things were hanging in the balance, and the balance was turned in favour of Israel, and so it was in the case of Esther.

P.H.H. If I understand you rightly, you say the feminine introduces the suffering side in the interim; it would also appear in Genesis 1 and Revelation 21 connected with God's counsels and His eternal purpose. The suffering side having done its work, is that it?

J.T. I think it is important to carry down the feminine side from the outset. The idea of the twelve tribes of Israel is not at the outset, coming in later and finishing earlier than eternity, but the feminine side runs through.

Rem. Do you mean that what is administrative is in fact provisional to meet conditions as they may exist, whereas the feminine side was primarily with God and all administration has in view leaving that clear for the woman to appear as with Christ according to the divine counsels.

J.T. Hence the service of the assembly in the millennial day is clearly modified, although we have an allusion to so many cities yet the assembly is feminine as related to Christ; the bride arose by herself, as we see in the book of Proverbs; she arose in the absence of her husband, but of course the millennial day does not suppose the absence of Christ, but the present day does.

P.H.H. Would the millennial day be on the principle of His fulness as verse 22 of Ephesians 1, God "gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". Would it be right to connect the assembly there with Christ's fulness?

J.T. I would think so. The allusion is to the woman's place in relation to the man primarily. That is much in view in Ephesians, meaning too that it is an eternal thought.

J.M. Does administration cease with the millennium?

J.T. Well, I do not know. It is a question as to whether the idea may not continue. Perhaps if we were more accustomed to spiritual things and spiritual conditions we should understand what is said of the Lord -- "Then the Son also himself shall be placed in subjection to him who put all things in subjection to him, that God may be all in all", 1 Corinthians 15:28. Whether administrative conditions are found there would probably be understood more clearly if we were more spiritual, but I would suggest they are, that they will go through, because the idea of administration existed in the government of the universe before sin came into it.

Ques. Had you that in mind in calling attention to verse 2 of Revelation chapter 21, the fact that the city is seen in the eternal day?

J.T. Just so. The very term 'city' indicates administration.

Jno.G. What is the value of the modifying feminine element in the administration?

J.T. I think we may say it appears constantly amongst us, and hence the reference in 1 Corinthians, "Let them ask their husbands at home". That conveys that administrative matters are to be understood by the sisters.

A.B. Is the modifying element seen especially in Abigail in restraining David? He could say, "Blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou", 1 Samuel 25 verse 33.

J.T. Very good. She is especially a type of the assembly.

Rem. You were thinking of the feminine element as entering constitutionally into the assembly as such, not only as the sisterly element?

J.T. I think of the assembly as representing it;

and so the Lord's early communications to the disciples after He arose would have in mind that they would enter into the feminine side because the whole assembly is feminine as we see in Revelation 21 -- "I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". It is a feminine thought.

S.G. Does the grace that dominates administration in this present period emphasise the feminine side?

J.T. I think it would. If there be that modification that is needed, it is a question of whether the brothers take it on. It reduces the hardness which often appears in the brothers, when the wives modify the husbands. They may, of course, at times do the very opposite, but we are speaking now generally of the power of modification in government -- how it softens. The case mentioned in Nehemiah clearly supports it, because the Persian queen appeared in Nehemiah's time -- the queen also is sitting by; she said nothing, but she is there; and so the "queen in gold of Ophir" is there. It is a complete idea. The daughters are subordinate to that, but the queen is the complete thought.

M.A.W. Would you say it is important that the women are mentioned in Acts 16, especially Lydia, the one who was affected by Paul's word?

J.T. Very good. See what modification was there. The epistle to the Philippians has this thread running through it. The apostle alludes there to "those women" also. We see it too particularly in Lydia by herself as over against the man of Macedonia -- the man and the woman.

S.G. You mean Lydia would balance the jailor?

J.T. She would. He was evidently a hard man

but he became softened. We cannot say Lydia effected that but the whole position is the point to get at, to see what enters into the position at Philippi: the feminine side in it must surely bear on what we are dealing with now, what is going to come out of heaven.

Rem. Is it remarkable that the exhortation in Philippians has two sisters specially in view, Philippians 4:2?

J.T. They were to be of one mind in the Lord. It is very important that the sisters should be of one mind.

H.B. Would what you have been drawing attention to underline what the apostle writes to Timothy as to the overseer being the husband of one wife?

J.T. I think that is good. That may often be questioned -- why should he be the husband of one wife, and why a woman put on the list should be the wife of one husband. Well, it would seem that polygamy as in the East would be inimical to church development, whereas one man and one woman in marital relations as in the Western world is representative of church relations. We see it exemplified in Aquila and Priscilla. Polygamy must have worked against the truth of the Church and so as we have often noticed, we have very little result in the gospel in Asia, especially in Eastern Asia.

Ques. I was going to ask in relation to Prisca and Aquila as mentioned in Romans, Prisca taking precedence, but mentioned as "my fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus, (who for my life staked their own neck; to whom not I only am thankful, but also all the assemblies of the nations) and the assembly at their house". Romans 16:3 - 5. Is that the balanced thought you have in mind -- their house?

J.T. Just so. It is one of the most interesting points you get in the scriptures. I think one is mentioned first the same number of times as the other.

Ques. Would Paul's word in Corinthians help -- 1 Corinthians 11, verse 11? "However, neither is woman without man, nor man without woman, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman, but all things of God". -- the masculine and the feminine being balanced. Do you think there is a tendency to stress one or the other at any time, whereas the matter is to be balanced?

J.T. Well, that is what I was thinking at the beginning, and we have got onto that side largely in this reading but we have to move on to the reference in. John 20, which I believe is what we need to understand most. Man and woman appear in that chapter in such a remarkable way, and a woman of such a history too. It is acknowledged what her history had been, and now she is taken on to carry a message to the apostles, and is already saying that the Lord is "Rabboni", meaning "My Teacher". That was, as it were, her name of Him. It would mean that femininely the assembly is viewed as taught. We see it too in Proverbs in the virtuous woman -- "Who can find a woman of worth? for her price is far above rubies". And then it delineates what a person she was. She is an ideal person, especially administratively. Her husband is known in the gates. The brethren no doubt have noticed the peculiar composition of that last chapter of Proverbs, how the original text in Hebrew is employed in a remarkable way to work out the history like an embroidery. We get in too in the Psalms. Things are worked out in words to delineate this great person, who was so hard to find, but the passage implies she was findable, because she is so perfectly portrayed by the writer.

W.H.T. Is it not remarkable that she is characterised as one who surveyeth the ways of her household and eateth not the bread of idleness, Proverbs 31:27?

J.T. Every line in that chapter seems to be pure gold, and undoubtedly it applies to the assembly.

Jno.G. It says "She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and upon her tongue is the law of kindness", Proverbs 31:26. That law evidently would modify if it were in evidence.

J.T. Quite so.

P.H.H. Do you think that is why the Lord during recent years has raised the question of marital affections in the assembly, not merely in relation to the general administration which would work out in grace, as you say, but also in regard of such times as the Lord's Supper. Is it that the Lord will not end up His affairs without this expression?

J.T. Well it is part of the truth, especially the truth of the assembly, and we have already, I think, quoted in these readings several times that the Lord says of the Spirit that "he shall guide you into all the truth". I believe that is the point, the whole range of truth is to be worked out in the assembly before she goes up. That is the great ministry of the Spirit. The woman in John's second epistle -- "the elect lady" she is called, "and her children, whom I love in truth, and not I only but also all who have known the truth, for the truth's sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity", -- this elect lady is noticeable as coming in, in John, who, as we have often remarked, is to go on to the end, as the Lord's own words indicate "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?" In John's ministry the Lord provides for the assembly right to the end, and undoubtedly Mary Magdalene is one of the types used. She is seemly and moves according to circumstances but moves towards the truth -- towards Christ; she first names Him "Rabboni", and then she is given to understand that she is not to touch Him, meaning that the Jewish element is not to be linked up with

Christ in the heavenly land, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren ..." She is detached in her mind from the whole system of earth, because that is implied, I believe, in the fact that before He sends the message He says "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father ..." He is now ascended to His Father and the assembly is formed while He is ascended to His Father. Mary Magdalene represents ministry such as the Lord has given to brethren for a long time to form the feminine side, so that the heart of Christ should be ministered to.

I think anyone who follows the gospels can see that John is intended for the last days. In John 20 the door is shut and everything is perfect in that chapter so far as the Lord's visit to the upper room is concerned, whereas Luke indicates there were imperfections when the Lord came in. In fact, Luke would not say that the Lord came in; he would imply He was always there. "He stood in the midst". Luke does not say He came and stood, whereas John does. John says "When therefore it was evening" (notice the time of the day) "on that day, which was the first day of the week ..." The first day is mentioned again here. It is mentioned more frequently in John than in the other gospels, and there can be no doubt that it is the first day not, simply the day after the sabbath, but the first day, the doors being shut, "Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you". There is no fear or perturbation there. Things are just normal. That is the abstract view which God is entitled to present to us. The abstract view is what goes through, everything else has to go.

W.H.T. If it is not diverting you, I was going to ask should we not be concerned about reading John's epistles more than is done?

J.T. Well, I think you are entitled to say that,

and in what we have already said about reading -- "Give thyself to reading" -- John's writings are especially in mind. He says that the world itself would not contain the books, meaning that there was much to instruct the minds of the brethren, because books are for that purpose. The Lord's Supper, as a matter of fact, to start with, is not for our hearts but for our minds. It is calling Him to mind. John has in mind that we should read. So to revert again to the elect lady -- she is so honoured by the apostle: "The elder to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not I only but also all who have known the truth, for the truth's sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity". Peter says "She that is elected with you in Babylon salutes you", 1 Peter 5:13. That is another reference of the apostle Peter which would correspond. Paul's reference to Phoebe is a corresponding thought too. How respectful he is in speaking of her, as if God would lift up sisters when there is dignity there and comeliness and all that God approves as corresponding with the assembly. God would lift that up and make it to shine among the brethren.

G.H.P. Would verses 10 and 11, in regard to one coming and bringing not the doctrine, indicate that this modifying principle as represented by the feminine side is not incompatible with the maintenance of divine principles?

J.T. Quite so. The maintenance of discipline. "If anyone come to you and bring not this doctrine, do not receive him into the house", that is the very opposite to Lydia -- "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there". But this man is refused.

M.A.W. Why does John write as an elder and not as an apostle?

J.T. Well, that would go with his way, I think.

He was an elderly man, I suppose. Ultimately the brethren began to know he was an elderly man. History tells us he was very old. Paul calls himself old but he was much younger. John, I think, would have advanced actually to a great age and must have become endeared to the brethren for he retained his dignity and power throughout.

S.B. "Little children" and "whom I love" would be linked together.

J.T. Well, just so. John speaks of them in the first epistle too; he calls the disciples (the persons to whom he wrote) "children" two or three times, but he speaks of them as in the sense of full-grown children, and in the first chapter of his gospel he refers to believers having the title to take the place of children of God.

Ques. Is John using the term "elder" in the sense of maturity rather than what is official?

J.T. Quite so, and how the children, young Christians, would be influenced by him! They would become known to him, as an apostle who endeared himself. We read of the millennial day that old men and old women will be sitting in the streets and the children playing, in Jerusalem, as if there was a beautiful link between them. There is no doubt that John uses the word "elder" from that point of view.

P.H.H. The character of the elect lady seems to set John free to give this message to the saints. He changes from a personal address to her to saying "ye" and "you"; would that be more on the line of responsibility with regard to the truth and fellowship?

J.T. Well, it is a remarkable change, and possibly all these references would be over against the wicked woman, Jezebel.

Ques. Is she presented in a way as equal to John. He says "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as writing to thee a new commandment, but that which

we have had from the beginning, that we should love one another", 2 John verse 5. Is she in that way honoured as he is not writing to her as one who is inferior?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would John himself be helpful in this matter? -- the Lord commits His mother to him?

J.T. Quite so. It is a remarkable incident because she was the Lord's mother until that moment; He tells His mother to behold John, and He says to John "Behold thy mother. And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home", which I think fully endorses what we are saying. What a man he was!

E.B. Do we also see this principle of modification in Abraham, in regard to the visitation of Divine Persons? He hastened into the tent to Sarah.

J.T. Yes. She did not come up to Abraham, however, but still was recognised. Her cakes did not appear on the table, but still she is there, and she is there in relation to Christ, in relation to Isaac.

Rem. She arrives ultimately, anyway. She may have missed a little at the time, but she arrives at the place later.

J.T. She is a model for us and rises to a type of the assembly in Galatians 4:26 -- "Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother". That refers to the assembly.

P.H.H. May I ask you to revert for a moment to John 20 and the exalted character of the message that the Lord gives to Mary. Would it be right to say that what she represents in the saints justifies the Lord in giving such an exalted message?

J.T. It may be that is the secret of what we are having. It is not to make any reflection on earlier ministry, but going back twenty-five or thirty years, the Lord has, I believe, taken account of the features

of the assembly coming out in the brethren. During this period we have had the truth as to the Lord's Supper stressed, also the collection, and the order of the service of God. All that has come out, and I believe God has taken account of it and He is giving us more and will give more. There is no limit to what may be given, although there is the idea of the completion of the word of God, but there is no limit to what the Lord Jesus may say to us as His assembly, if we hold on to assembly qualities, feminine qualities, sisters, of course, literally so, holding on to their places in the family as wives and mothers usable to the Lord, and the husbands modified by them and accepting modifications as Abraham did, for he was modified by his wife. Jehovah says "In all that Sarah hath said to thee hearken to her voice". It is a principle for the husband; and if we proceed on those lines we shall get more, for the Spirit is here for that very purpose, to guide us into all the truth.

S.R. Might the suggestion as to hearkening to sisters be applied in relation to matters of care?

J.T. I would think so, as the brothers take the sisters into their confidence and talk over things. So that the care meeting should be tentative because the care meeting has no authority -- it is a tentative matter throughout and the brothers need sometimes to be reminded of that, and the sisters ought to be able to remind them of that.

S.G. Do you think that the feelings and impressions of the sisters should have a bearing on the deliberations of the brothers?

J.T. Well, they should, I am sure. I have had great help on these lines and no doubt every brother here would say the same. It is for us to pursue these lines, and increase in them more and more as the scripture says.

Ques. When you say that the brothers take the

sisters into their confidence, you have not in mind I suppose, a formal announcement of what has taken place at the care meeting, but rather what takes place in the home on the ground of enquiry?

J.T. I only heard recently that in some places a formal resume of the care meeting is given. I am sorry to hear that for I do not think it is right. I think the idea is for the husband to tell the thing; as it says, "let them ask their own husbands".

Ques. Because of the necessity of the sisters being taken into confidence as has been said, you do not think that it would be wise to ask the saints to remain behind after the meeting for prayer and details of the care meeting be given publicly?

J.T. No, details ought to be given by the husband to the wife at home.

THE BELIEVER'S MIND AS CONNECTED WITH THE LORD'S SUPPER

Matthew 26:26 - 30; Luke 22:14 - 20; 1 Corinthians 11:23 - 24

J.T. What I have in mind is to consider the Lord's Supper as presented in the gospels and then in the first epistle to the Corinthians in order to call attention to the fact that the mind is more in view than other features in us. Luke corresponds with what is recorded in the epistles but I thought that we should also consider Matthew (representing Mark also) because he stresses eating. That would involve the lower organs -- digestion and assimilation -- what is constitutional in that sense, but Luke contemplates the mind, and the passage in 1 Corinthians contemplates both the mind and the digestive organs. It is assimilation too, and perhaps we do not give sufficient thought to the eating side in the Lord's Supper, suggesting what is needed to sustain us spiritually. At the same time Luke and 1 Corinthians make much of the mind, that is, it is a memorial which is contemplated. It seems as if the Lord intends that we should be built up so as to acquire and retain strength in the testimony and then to be clear in our minds historically. We have to bear history in mind too.

G.F.G. The eating in Matthew seems to be followed by the drinking.

J.T. Well, it would be. It is the idea first of eating the passover. I had that in mind, as it says in verse 20 "And when the evening was come he lay down at table with the twelve. And as they were eating ..." -- that is, it is the passover that is in mind. Then we have eating again in verse 26; these two references to eating are remarkable. That is in Matthew, but Luke is not concerned so much about

eating, possibly because the Gentiles are more in view in his account. Luke brings in the mind.

R.McB. Paul could say "I myself with the mind serve God's law".

J.T. Just so. Romans enlarges on the mind, and Peter refers to "your pure mind" and Paul in Romans speaks of "renewing of your mind". Because of the fact that the mind is so much claimed by what is of the world, by what is outside, it needs to be renewed. There need to be renewed tastes and desires. The Lord's Supper has acquired a great place amongst the brethren, and God has helped us as to it. It acquired a great place during the Reformation too, and indeed from Pentecost on the Lord's Supper was in evidence involving much controversy. So in recent times we find ourselves constantly alluding to the Lord's Supper in view of the service of God, but one has now in mind what is constitutional so as to take part in the service of God.

S.B. In regard to what you say, would it be helpful to see in connection with the scripture quoted in Romans, the man is connected with the mind -- "I myself with the mind ..."?

J.T. Yes, "I myself"; the person is in mind; he has resolved inwardly to serve the law of God. These scriptures are intended to support all that. Just now the world is full of news. During the war the newspapers had great difficulty in finding space; there is not much now and perhaps it is a wholesome thing for the brethren that there is not -- the less the better, for it is of the devil. He will not fail to fill the pages of newspapers, and therefore the need of constitutional nourishment and then mental ability such as will take in and make room for the things above, the things that are not seen.

Ques. In speaking of what is constitutional have you in mind the connection of the feast of unleavened bread with the feast of the passover?

J.T. Quite so. The feast of unleavened bread tends to reduce the natural taste, and the passover would occupy us with the Lord and His things, making way for the things above.

Ques. What is the bearing of the first eating in verse 21? Would you say a little about that in regard to the Supper.

J.T. Well, it refers to the passover, and it is clarified for us in Corinthians where it says "For also our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed; so that let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth", 1 Corinthians 5:7 - 8. This is the view of the Lord's Supper in the 11th chapter, but the passover is clearly the eating. It is Christ sacrificed, not Christ as having died alone, but sacrificed, alluding to the word in Exodus, the idea of sacrifice is there and it is a striking illustration of what the antitype is. The spiritual thoughts, however, are in the antitype.

F.B. If we are not eating the passover, can we rightly eat the Lord's Supper?

J.T. Well, I think that is what is implied. Scripture is linked together for us and made intelligible so that we can read Exodus in the light of the New Testament. The 12th chapter of Exodus speaks of "the beginning of months"; the young believer starting to break bread and partake of the Lord's Supper is beginning. His earlier days may be recorded, of course, but in truth he begins as he commences to take the Supper. It is the "beginning of months", and hence the beautiful account we have in Exodus 12 and continuing on to the tabernacle system. What is to be kept in mind is that the young believer is taken account of, for the matter is reduced to a few verses by Moses. In Exodus 12 we have a long account of the passover and all that is connected

with it in relation to the unleavened bread; but then beginning with verse 21 we have Moses passing the matter on to the elders and he condenses the account. I think it suggests that God considers for us; meetings may be too long, or other things may be prolonged unnecessarily. God would take account of what we are capable of, so that Moses reduced the account and I believe it is for the young believers, for they have to be considered. They cannot take in too much nor can they sit too long, and they have to be considered even as to time. "And Moses called all the elders of Israel, and said to them, Seize and take yourselves lambs for your families, and kill the passover" and so on. It is to be noted that there are words included in this paragraph that are not in the general account. "And Jehovah will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he sees the blood on the lintel, and on the two doorposts, Jehovah will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come into your houses to smite you. And ye shall observe this as an ordinance for thee and for thy sons forever. And it shall come to pass, when ye are come into the land that Jehovah will give you, as he has promised, that ye shall keep this service. And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say to you, What mean ye by this service? That ye shall say, It is a sacrifice of passover to Jehovah, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when he smote the Egyptians and delivered our houses. And the people bowed their heads and worshipped. And the children of Israel went away, and did as Jehovah had commanded Moses and Aaron; so did they". That paragraph is really an epitome and it is concise and intelligible and I think it is well to have that in mind in looking into 1 Corinthians because the passover is introduced there in chapter 5 to prepare us for the Lord's Supper in chapter 11. The

idea of suffering is in the passover and the idea of sincerity and truth in the unleavened bread. Suffering and sincerity -- these are brief words but pregnant with meaning.

F.I. Is that why in Matthew 26 we get the two things merging, that is the passover merging into the Supper?

J.T. That is so.

F.I. I was wondering whether it was for us to take in that there should be no break between keeping the feast of unleavened bread and the partaking of the Supper.

J.T. Well, I would say that.

Ques. Is there a suggestion as to the assembly in Exodus 12? -- It says "Speak unto all the assembly".

J.T. Well, I think the Spirit of God had that in mind in using there the word that we use so much now, and seen especially in the 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians. In Exodus 12 we have a very instructive note in the New Translation as to the word 'assembly'.

In order to proceed and not to miss what we have in mind, I would remark that in general Matthew gives us the eating side; it is a question of mastication, digestion and assimilation -- these are all thoughts that connect with building up the constitution, but Luke is not concerned so much about that; he is more concerned about our minds. We are to remember, and the word according to the note on 1 Corinthians 11:24 is "For the calling of me to mind" -- as if one had the power to do it, not that it is an accident, but he has the power to do it. He has power over his mind and uses it for one purpose and that is to contemplate what is presented in the Lord's Supper, especially in the bread, but 1 Corinthians speaks of the same idea in regard to the cup, and we do not get that anywhere else. The gospels do not refer to it. It is evidently what the Lord Jesus gave

from heaven. That is, as if the Lord in unfolding the truth added things so that our minds should be affected by the cup as by the bread.

G.F.G. Is the principle seen in 2 Corinthians chapter 3 where it speaks of the thoughts of Israel being darkened? -- but then it says "but we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit". Is that connected with the idea of the mind being enlightened in contrast with Israel's being darkened? It says "But their thoughts have been darkened, for unto this day the same veil remains in reading the old covenant, unremoved, which in Christ is annulled". I was wondering if there was any suggestion that the saints were taking on impressions of the glory of Christ. Would you connect that with the divine side, the side in Luke?

J.T. Well, quite. "Beholding as in a glass" refers really to the mind -- what the eye takes in as well as the ear. These are two organs which refer to the mind.

Ques. I was going to ask as to the thought of remembrance connected additionally with the cup, in what the Lord gives to Paul for the assembly amongst the Gentiles: Is there some particular point of the economy which we now have with the assembly being here, and the Spirit being the central feature of it? I wonder whether you could help us as to why there is something additional in remembrance in connection with the cup that is not found elsewhere.

J.T. Well, I think it would imply satisfaction in what the cup presents to us, because young people, while they partake of the Lord's Supper, sometimes are not satisfied feeling it is not enough. As time goes on young people get more and more taken up with things outside and I believe there would be

provision for them in the sense of satisfaction, and the question is raised as to whether we are satisfied where we are as in the fellowship. Drinking is usually the idea of satisfaction.

W.H.T. Would Eutychus in the 20th chapter of Acts be an example? He evidently was not up to things.

J.T. Very good. I would think that fits very well. That chapter is full of love. It begins with love and ends with love. But one young man was there who was under compulsion. We are thankful for the young present, even though they are here under compulsion, but they may not all be satisfied, and Eutychus represents that element. He was looking out of the window at first but he fell asleep and then eventually fell -- a most sorrowful thing, and I suppose it would have been more sorrowful if there had not been an intervention. Paul went down and enclosed him in his arms. That was a feature of the position -- it is a very beautiful feature, specially applicable today -- laying hold of the young, influencing them with affection, so that Paul was able to say "life is in him" and he was brought up alive. But the chapter is very significant as alluding to assembly history in relation to the Lord's Supper; we are not to be hesitating in our meetings, and I believe what is needed is satisfaction -- to be restful in the understanding of the position.

F.B. Would the right idea in regard to the young be found in 1 Peter 2:1 - 2, "Laying aside therefore all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envying and all evil speakings, as newborn babes desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word, that by it ye may grow up to salvation"?

J.T. Well, notice the word "mental". That is the word that links up with what we are speaking of -- it is a question of the mind being held. The gospel

presents what is attractive in Christ at the outset, as the woman said "Come see a man". Peter has the mind in view in the word "mental" -- it is milk, it is the nourishing of the mind.

Rem. You have dwelt on the thought of drinking in connection with the cup, but Paul introduces the thought of remembrance in relation to it additionally. I was wondering if you could help us as to why it is that sometimes we get an impression of the Lord in the bread, but perhaps do not look for any augmentation of it in the cup. Would you expect the remembrance in connection with the cup to lead to the enlargement of what the Lord has already said or the strengthening of it in the souls of those present?

J.T. Well I think that, and what I was remarking about satisfaction is an important thing with us.

A.H. You mean in speaking of satisfaction as connected with the cup it is as taking in all that the cup implies that we are satisfied with it.

J.T. Yes, all that it implies. The Lord says "My blood is drink indeed". In the scriptures drinking usually means satisfaction, I think.

A.H. Is the lack of that satisfaction very often the cause of so little part being taken perhaps by younger brothers?

J.T. Quite. In the 10th chapter of 1 Corinthians it speaks of our public conduct and walk and the cup is mentioned first. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ?" The word "communion" is stressed in the 10th chapter because it is a question of what we are externally and what we are connected with externally -- whether on Monday and the rest of the week we can carry on with what we have had in the Lord's Supper -- whether it sustains us. And so the idea of idolatry is enlarged on in chapter 10 and the idea of discipline on the part of God is enlarged on in

chapter 11 -- that is your conduct inside is disregarding the body of Christ. Whether it is as coming into the room or sitting down together, or during the meeting, we should see to it that our conduct does not in any way discredit the body of the Lord Jesus.

S.A. What would be the force of the word "communion" in your mind?

J.T. Well it is what we have in common. We would be under command or under orders.

S.A. 'Identified with' -- would that be it?

J.T. Well the word means more than that. It implies that we are under orders. We are obligated to one another; of course we are obligated to the Lord, but the force of it is that we are obligated to one another. It is what you are doing when the brethren are not looking at you -- it is a question of honesty or uprightness. What do you understand when you use the word "communion"?

S.A. Well, I thought it was that we are identified with the fellowship of the Lord's death.

J.T. Well, it is the word "identification" or "communion" but it has obligation attached to it. I am not only obligated to the Lord and He sees me all the time, but I am obligated to the brethren even though they are not present.

Ques. Would you say it is the idea of partnership and whatever we do affects the partnership?

J.T. Just so. Partnership is the word really. I think we overlook that we are obligated to each other.

Rem. Paul wrote to the Corinthians in relation to their measure and to their state of soul. They were intelligent enough to understand what he was going to say. He says "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to intelligent persons, do ye judge what I say", 1 Corinthians 10:14 - 15. Is that an appeal to their mental powers?

J.T. Quite so. I was thinking of that very word -- "I speak as to intelligent persons". He considered them to be that; as Christians we ought to be intelligent. We are not short in teaching, but we are short in consistency and in intelligence to take in things that we have heard.

Ques. Do I understand from what you say as to the Lord's body that we are not, for instance, at liberty to look about in the meeting as we please? Would that come into it?

J.T. That is right. The 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians is when we are inside. The paragraph previous to the one we read refers to their being very naughty, going, I believe, to the extent of being affected by drink. Terrible things can happen amongst the brethren and in the assembly. The Corinthians were despising the assembly. It is a word for us all and especially for the young people breaking bread. The chapter explains what is meant, and it is very concise in what it says. Paul says "I praise you not"; he tells them that "many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep".

G.H.P. In regard to the cup and drinking and the satisfaction it affords, how far does the suggestion of blessing in the cup go? Does it go the full length of what we are brought into in Christianity?

J.T. Well, I suppose it might. "The cup of blessing" -- as if the idea of blessing is denoted in it. You can hardly limit the blessing, it is a general thought. We already alluded to what Numbers brings out -- what Aaron was to say "The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace". (Numbers 6:24 - 26); and in Psalm 133:3 -- "… there hath Jehovah commanded the blessing, life for evermore". The Lord is bent on blessing and the

assembly is constituted in that way. It is the vessel of the service of God and it affords blessing.

Rem. In regard to the additional note about the cup, to which attention has been drawn; is the thought that as keeping that before us, say in thanksgiving, it would tend to this satisfaction?

J.T. Well, it would. In speaking of it in the assembly do you mean, or in each person keeping it before him?

Rem. One who would give thanks for instance would mention the fact of the remembrance.

J.T. In relation to the Lord's Supper I find it hard to get away from what the Lord was pleased to give to Paul as recorded in 1 Corinthians 11. In speaking at the Lord's Supper that passage constantly comes before us as it is so concise and yet so full. The words "the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was delivered up" always touches the heart. And then you connect it with the passover and the sufferings, as it says in chapter 5 "For also our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed ..."

Ques. Is that what you meant by history?

J.T. Yes it is. It attaches to this position. There is nothing more historical in the Bible I think. From the very outset God had the race in mind; we have to keep in mind that God is thinking of man all the time. It says His delights were with the sons of men -- how beautiful that is! Not only men, but the sons of men.

R.M. Has the Lord satisfaction in seeing the saints having satisfaction?

J.T. Well, quite so. We are told in the Gospels that the Lord looked on the young man and loved him. The Lord was thinking of what He created physically and He looked on the young man and loved him. When we come to the truth of scripture, man is in Christ and eternity refers to Christ and all

that comes out of Christ. The assembly is of Christ.

T.G. The Lord would have all this in mind when He said "With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer".

J.T. Just so. I thought that we should read in Luke because it is so beautiful that the Lord had that thought at that time. We have a reference there to before He suffered, and then in Acts 1 it mentions "after He had suffered".

F.I. Would you say that as giving thanks for the cup we become stimulated, so that our affections are put into movement?

J.T. I would. That is what I would connect with satisfaction. I suppose you do too.

F.I. I was thinking that not only are we to be stimulated ourselves in that way, but as our affections are in full movement there is the stimulation of Divine Persons as well.

J.T. I think that satisfaction is the idea -- the drinking is satisfaction and works out by the Spirit in the whole of the service; the Spirit rightly begins it.

S.B. It would look as if the writer of Hymn 394 had experienced something of what we are speaking about -- "Thou dost make us taste the blessing, soon to fill a world of bliss".

J.T. The hymns are important; they are intended to stimulate the brethren. Singing is intended to stimulate us.

J.J-n. I was wondering how we should think of the sufferings of Christ at the Lord's table. How far should the sufferings of Christ be brought in?

J.T. Well, as already mentioned there is what took place before He suffered, as in Luke, and then in Acts "after He had suffered".

Ques. Do you think that if this thought of eating were more with us constitutionally, and if we were

built up in our souls as a result of the appreciation of the sufferings of Christ in relation to the passover, we should perhaps be more ready to appreciate His sufferings as the fruit of love, when we are together in the supper?

J.T. Just so. One of the latest Psalms speaks about the formation of our members. Psalm 139:14 "I will praise thee, for I am fearfully, wonderfully made. Marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well". I thought of that Psalm as entering into what you are saying as to constitutional formation -- here we have it in the abstract, but it is not abstract when I am born anew; all these things are in new birth. They are all there and they work out in the assembly, and what we are speaking of is intended to nourish us inwardly so that we might have part in the service with intelligence and feeling. I thought it would be well to have that Psalm before us; it illustrates what the scriptures can be to us and I think that Psalm helps in the subject that is now before us.

Ques. Before you leave the Psalm I would like to ask is it noteworthy that so much is made of searching in the Psalm? Do you think that as being subject to the scrutiny of the Lord, as we must be if we have partaken of the Supper, it would set us free as the verse that you have read suggests?

J.T. Well, just so. We alluded yesterday to the parts of a man -- the inwards -- spirit, soul and body. Mary, the Lord's mother, alludes to the soul and spirit and we are now alluding to the mind. Proverbs 20:27 says "Man's spirit is the lamp of Jehovah, searching all the inner parts of the belly". God can employ our minds; they are available to Him to search us, so that we get here "Jehovah, thou hast searched me and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising, thou understandest

my thought afar off; Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways; For there is not yet a word on my tongue, but lo, O Jehovah, thou knowest it altogether". So that we are under the eye of God in the service and the inwards are to be in action, the different parts of a man -- spirit, soul and body; the body is involved -- how we sit down and how we get up and how we speak. We are therefore challenged as to whether we call upon all that is within us to bless His holy name. You are not ashamed to bring anything out before the Lord in the service.

F.B. Would it not be a great preservative if we had that ever in mind?

J.T. Well, I am sure it is intended to be that. And I believe the drinking is intended to stimulate and give satisfaction, but it gives intelligence. I am thinking of a passage in 1 Timothy where the apostle says "Use a little wine"; the brethren will understand that I am not telling anyone to drink wine literally, but in order to shew how it may affect you if it is used figuratively. In the 5th chapter of 1 Timothy, verse 22, we read "Lay hands quickly on no man, nor partake in others' sins. Keep thyself pure. Drink no longer only water, but use a little wine on account of thy stomach and thy frequent illnesses". Now it might seem strange to bring this in here, but I believe it is an allusion as to how we are stimulated inwardly and made quick in our understanding and able to grasp things as before God.

T.G. Would self-examination, as suggested in the chapter, make way for the Spirit to form us in affection towards Christ?

J.T. Just so. That is what is in my mind. Now I would call attention to another serious thing, and that is God's discipline in connection with the Lord's Supper, a thing which has perhaps been a little

ignored. It says "In like manner also the cup after having supped, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come. So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of the blood of the Lord". That is to say, where there is carelessness we do not distinguish the Lord's body or His blood. Then it goes on to say in verse 30 "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged. But being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. So that, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another" (which would allude to mutual feeling among us) "If any one be hungry, let him eat at home, that ye may not come together for judgment. But the other things, whenever I come, I will set in order"; which means that there is more that he could say about it. It was primarily in my mind to bring in the passage because of the present moment that we may renew our energy and affections and intelligence in this matter of the Lord's Supper, because it really involves discipline and our having part in the service of God.

F.B. How did this discipline take place?

J.T. Well, it takes place if one is sick, but it may not always be so. It was so here, as it says "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep" -- a most solemn thing.

F.I. I was wondering whether you would connect the thought of searching with when we are eating the supper, or whether it would mean that we are keeping the feast in our ordinary movements here.

J.T. I would say that it is especially when we are partaking of the Supper. Beginning at verse 17 and running down to the end of the 22nd verse refers to when they were together, and Paul says "It is not to eat the Lord's Supper" -- verse 20. But that is what they were doing, and I think the point would be to judge ourselves when we are eating. "Let a man examine himself and so let him eat".

Ques. What would you think of one who absented himself from coming to the Supper for a period?

J.T. Well, I think he might be cut off from among his people. Numbers 9 would be the truth bearing upon those who stay away from the Lord's Supper.

Ques. Would you think that normally the more a person was constitutionally self-judged the less there would be to occupy the mind on love's occasion of the Supper?

J.T. I am sure of that. There would be nothing to occupy you but the Lord's Supper. You have got control over your mind; I think we should keep that before us. In the Lord's Supper we are supposed to have control over our minds, and I believe that is what Paul means when he says "I myself with the mind serve God's law". He was determined to do it and the Spirit of God is here to help us to do it so that we are able to shut out other things.

S.B. In regard to the matter of self-examination; would it help us to note in the Psalm referred to, we are taken back to the very beginning, and it is a written record of every member?

J.T. Yes.

T.McC. Would Matthew's setting of the Supper have in mind our minds being occupied throughout the entire week with the Supper?

J.T. Yes, I think in general I would say that. What am I doing when I am absent from the brethren? There are, of course, things you have to

be occupied with in ordinary affairs -- the Lord knows that -- your family, your business, etc.: but when you come to the Lord's Supper, you have power to eliminate all that, and as at the Lord's Supper we should have power to control our minds. The Spirit helps us in that.

Ques. Has John that in mind in his epistle when he says "He that has been begotten of God keeps himself"?

J.T. Yes, "and the wicked one does not touch him".

S.W.J. The bride in the Canticles says "Sustain ye me with raisin cakes, refresh me with apples". Is that the setting? And then it says "His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me". Does the head represent intelligence?

J.T. Very good. Generally the service of God would last a comparatively short time. Well, why can't we give that time exclusively to God? We have many other hours and days to look after our own affairs. We should have control of our minds. It says "We have the mind of Christ" which is the thinking faculty, and means we are able to do what Christ does. It is a question of determination and the apostle determined to serve God's law. God is entitled to the Lord's Day and He takes it, and as we love Him we keep it too -- not that we are legal about it, but at the same time we have respect for that day and He gives us the day so that we can devote ourselves in His service and use our minds and be able to control them. It is most important that we should be able to control ourselves. The Lord is entitled to the Lord's Day and we are to give it to Him and act accordingly. As we come to the Supper the Spirit of God is ready to help us in the service of God. We shall serve Him in heaven eternally.

G.F.G. Would the verse preceding the one in Canticles which our brother has referred to also help?

It says there "He hath brought me to the house of wine, and his banner over me is love". Would that embrace both thoughts -- the house of wine the Matthew setting, and the banner Luke's setting?

J.T. Very good. Then the allusion to the head in Canticles would be a reference to the mind.

R.M. I would like to ask, in view of what we are speaking of, how do you approach this favoured hour? Do you have in mind getting satisfaction or giving satisfaction?

J.T. Giving satisfaction, of course. It is the service of God and I am set for that -- to serve God. That is really the controlling thought throughout scripture, and is especially dealt with in Leviticus but also in Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. God is thinking of His service and calling upon us to think of it too and to be in it.

A.E.D. In relation to refraining to partake of the Supper, it is a serious matter to do so, and if a saint is incompetent to judge himself, should he not refrain in such circumstances from partaking of the Supper?

J.T. Well, I think the word here is "Let a man examine himself and so let him eat". Why should he cease breaking bread? What hinders him?

A.E.D. I was thinking of incompetency with the person to judge himself; is he not doing a serious thing in partaking of the Supper unjudged?

J.T. Why should there be incompetency? What do you mean by that?

A.E.D. I am thinking of a case where the state of soul is so low that there is inability to take up this exercise of self-judgment.

J.T. I doubt that any Christian should assume that state, and if you judge yourself, God is gracious -- grace reigns. I expect you are dealing with facts you know yourself and not with scripture. It says "Let a man examine himself and so let him eat".

It does not say -- Let him not eat if he is unworthy. I would think that should be accepted by us all, and the Lord's Supper ought to be continued at all costs. The Lord would help us to judge things. The apostle in Romans 7 refers to serving God's law with his mind, and then in chapter 8 the Spirit is introduced which enables us to do what we resolve to do.

Ques. Would not the often-repeated reference to the Lord greatly help us, in that where there is the recognition of His authority the power to judge ourselves would not be absent from us?

J.T. Well that seems to be so. Why not do it? Why not feel that you are obligated to the Lord?

Ques. I would like to draw attention to the expression "let a man examine himself". Is that expression (and others similar) imperative, meaning that we are called upon to do it?

J.T. Yes, that is so.

Jno.G. Do you think that the man with the withered hand who was told to stretch it out, got strength to do so by obedience?

J.T. Quite so. "Stretch out thy hand" he was told, and he did. That is just the idea -- the question of obedience and the sense of obligation.

S.A. Would John be an example of what you have in your mind? -- one who was able to abstract himself from what was around and hold himself in readiness for the Lord.

J.T. Quite so. "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day" -- he was in keeping with the day.

THE MINISTER AS REPRESENTATIVE OF GOD.

1 Kings 17:7 - 24

J.T. This last verse shows the end that should be reached, viz. that the minister is known to be a man of God. It is an important thing that we represent God in our service, as it says "the word of Jehovah in thy mouth is truth". Not simply 'the truth' but "truth". That is the end to be reached. Another thing to be noted is that the minister of the truth has the gospel and the assembly in mind, and particularly as to the assembly he will have to do with houses in his ministry, and with families in houses. The service requires that he is to be identified with a house in so far as it may be needed in view of exigencies that arise in households, so that he is not merely a visitor, but identified with a house and all that enters into it from God. And another point, of course, is the word of God -- that is, the idea of prophecy which God has brought into particular prominence in recent times amongst His people, and how the prophet or the minister is to be in accord with his ministry in every way and accepting the word of God. Hence we have extraordinary circumstances in Elijah's history, such as we get earlier here in the portion of the chapter which we did not read, how he was fed by ravens and the brook carried water to him, and then how he was to be changed into circumstances in which not ravens but a widow is commanded to maintain him, showing how God moves in dignity with His servants and would have them to be in dignity in obeying Him and proving what He can be if we obey and are subject to whatever circumstances may arise in the service. The fact that it is said that Elijah was a man of like passions to ourselves makes these remarks very applicable to such a meeting. We are all, in a certain

sense, servants, but some of us are particularly so, and in different countries, including this one, God has raised up many who are able to serve His people. The servants of God become examples to us and hence He calls in Elijah, a man of like passions to ourselves, who prayed and brought about great effects in the ministry through prayer. One of the most important things in the ministry is prayer. I thought I would mention these things so that the brethren might know what is in mind and each join in. I think the Lord is showing that the young are to be particularly in mind in our meetings -- the very youngest, that is those able to take things in, and this section of the chapter shows how a young boy really is brought in and viewed as composing the house with his mother. She is the mistress and the only other person is the boy. Elijah is there too, and he has to join in with the house and live on what they lived on for a whole year. So it is all very practical.

F.B. You spoke of a change of circumstances. Would the drying up of the brook be the end of one circumstance and the asking for a little water the beginning of a new circumstance?

J.T. Quite so. The water that came from the brook was directed from God, no one carried it, it came down by gravity. That is one of the things God uses in His house, for the universe is God's. We see that the ravens carried the bread and flesh but the brook carried the water to him. The second verse says "The word of Jehovah" which is the prime thought running through. "And the word of Jehovah came to him saying, get thee hence, and turn thee eastward, and hide thyself by the torrent Cherith, which is before the Jordan. And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the torrent; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there. And he went and did according to the word of Jehovah; he went and abode

by the torrent Cherith, which is before the Jordan. And the ravens brought him bread and flesh in the morning, and bread and flesh in the evening; and he drank of the torrent". So that the first paragraph deals with the servant under the command of the Lord, and the created things -- God's creation -- feeding him and maintaining him. God says elsewhere (Psalm 50:10) "For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle upon a thousand hills". He is not dependent upon anyone -- I mean, people who are worldly; God is independent of man if needs be. He can get along without the worldly or ungodly man. At the same time He can provide for His servants, so that His servants are independent of such men.

R.McB. It was a privileged household this.

J.T. We shall see that as we observe how God comes in. The widow is called the mistress of the house. It is a remarkable thing that she is so designated -- God raising the whole position to a higher level.

P.J. Would this be seen in Paul as being identified with the household of Lydia?

J.T. Well, there it was -- "Come into my house and abide there". This woman was not so free as that, but I think she would know a great deal more and would be freer after the year was out than when the prophet came to her -- it was learning time. It is a learning time that we are in now.

S.B. Does this correspond in any way with 2 Corinthians 6:17 - 18 in regard to obedience? -- "Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and touch not what is unclean, and I will receive you; and I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty".

J.T. It does. "I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters ...".

S.B. It might be possible as acting in obedience

to that word that the brook may dry up, but then another way would open up.

J.T. If the brook dried up here it would be to bring out another thing. God was going to elevate His servant into the leading family. Especially in the New Testament Paul takes up the leading households.

He is the first to take up the households in that way.

M.B. Is God's idea in this not to overwhelm the saints by certain things, but to prove what He can do in them?

J.T. That is just it. And so it was here, He would prove what He could be to His servant and how He can turn from the mere creation to the household -- a most important matter. The New Testament is full of references to households. If, for example, we look into the gospel of Matthew, we shall find the Lord serving in houses in view of the assembly.

G.M. What would the widow woman speak of today?

J.T. Divine provision for a servant. We have all got to learn to count on God in our service. We may be brought to straits but we have to count on God in our service.

S.A. Would Paul in Arabia go through this first experience that you mention?

J.T. Well somewhat. This experience was in the East. Speaking now geographically the first experience is in the East from Jerusalem and the second experience is in the West -- Zidon.

Jno.G. Would you say the first section was Asia and the other Europe?

J.T. Yes, just so.

J.M. Do you think that the value of the believer's household has been revived concurrently with the truth of the assembly?

J.T. I think that is right. And the collection for the saints too is arrived at in that connection, it all

comes in in connection with Paul who was -- under God -- the greatest minister.

Rem. There are a few remarkable verses in Psalm 68. It begins "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered, and let them that hate him flee before him". Then verses 4 - 6 "Sing unto God, sing forth his name; cast up a way for him that rideth in the deserts; his name is Jah; and rejoice before him. A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation. God maketh the solitary into families; those that were bound he bringeth out into prosperity: but the rebellious dwell in a parched land".

J.T. That is very suggestive of all this, although the widow was not the object in the chapter we have read. The prime object was the service of Elijah, but it shews how God can provide for widows -- "A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows".

G.F.G. Is there a difference between "I have commanded a widow woman there to maintain thee", and in Elisha's case where the thing came spontaneously from the wealthy woman? Here the emphasis seems to be on "I have commanded ...".

J.T. Just so. And of course we should make room for the increase of knowledge in the progress of God's service that Elijah preceded Elisha. Elisha called Elijah his father and he poured water on the hands of Elijah. He was therefore like his child, at least his disciple, and would learn from him, and so you have several things in Elisha's ministry that would seem to link on with what he would have known in Elijah's ministry. It is important for young brothers coming into the meeting to observe what elder brethren have been accustomed to do and learn from them. We ought to have respect for the elder brethren and learn from them, and so what you say as to the "wealthy woman" as she is called -- she is a continuation of the widow who had nothing in the house and she had

to use the oil. That is a great matter for young brothers and young sisters to count on the Spirit to assist them in everything. Elisha told her what to do, although no doubt she learned from God directly. "He said, Go, borrow for thyself vessels abroad from all thy neighbours, empty vessels; let it not be few ..." 2 Kings 4:3. Now we get the idea of vessels. It would look as if the woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets did not have vessels, whereas the widow woman in 1 Kings had vessels. If she had a handful of meal it was in a barrel, if she had oil it was in a cruse; it is the idea of having things where they should be. And so Elisha told the widow to pour out into all the vessels and it was only when they were all filled that the oil stayed, shewing that there is plenty of room and plenty of means from God for the ministry. All that is carried forward into the great woman, the wealthy woman, and she could provide a house for the prophet. She was marked by hospitality, that is, using your means for the servants of God. She took notice that he was a man of God and she suggested to her husband to build a room for him and provide a table and a bed, etc. She was a hospitable person. How important it is to be hospitable! We should use the houses we have to entertain the saints, particularly the servants.

W.H.T. Do we see in the Acts, Philip the evangelist opening his house for Paul and his company, and the atmosphere that existed, being suggested in the four daughters who prophesied?

J.T. Quite so. That is another point to come up. Are the daughters able to prophesy? It is almost an unknown thing now to get sisters doing that. We should observe what is said in 1 Corinthians about a woman not speaking in the assembly, but these four daughters of Philip prophesied. It is not simply that they were prophetesses, but they prophesied.

T.McC. What would the word of Jehovah be to us today?

J.T. We have it here tonight, I trust. All our meetings should have that character -- all our ministry meetings and bible readings, in fact all our meetings. There should be something in each one of the character of the word of God, and of course that enriches us and makes us different from others. There are many other companies but the Spirit of God belongs to the assembly.

F.B. This wealthy woman says that she dwelt among her own people.

J .T. Well, we are here tonight and some of us live a long way off, but as soon as we come here where the brethren are we feel we have got our own people and we want to be with them. Now it is remarkable, as we all know, that the Lord Jesus refers to this incident. The Lord Himself spoke of this incident of the widow of Sarepta and how Elijah was sent to her. We were already alluding to the fact that Elijah was the more prominent thought and yet the Lord speaks of it as though she were the more prominent. "There were many widows in Israel in the days of Elias.. and to none of them was Elias sent but to Sarepta of Sidonia to a woman that was a widow". That is a touch that you might say is peculiar to Luke whose ministry is one of grace. Jehovah says to the prophet "I have commanded a widow woman there to maintain thee", which is to be noted. It is a word that is dignified. She was not simply to allow him into her house, but to maintain him. Then it goes on to say "And he arose and went to Zarephath; and when he came to the entrance of the city, behold, a widow woman was there gathering sticks". She was the first one he met according to what we read. "And he called to her and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink. And she went to

fetch it, and he called to her and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thy hand. And she said, As Jehovah thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse; and behold I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die". You might say that is characteristic of a widow such as she was, and the minister has to do with this -- how to meet a person such as this who has nothing else in her mind but to gather a few sticks and to use the little she has and dress it for her and her son so that they may eat it and die. That brings in the question of life and how it comes about -- I mean spiritual life. And that is what we should see as we proceed in the chapter. We heard last night about Eutychus in Troas, and there it is the same idea; indeed there are several instances of young people dying and how the situation is to be met. It is for the minister to know how to meet such a situation.

Ques. Is the use of the word "commanded" significant? Does it imply that God knew her as a subject person?

J.T. Well, quite so. Insubjection is so prevalent, and this reminds us of the ground on which the gospel is and the ground on which service should be carried on by any of us. The gospel is "for obedience of faith among all the nations", and I have no doubt that the idea of command is stressed in Elijah's case to bring out this. What God can be to those who are subject! One of the greatest things in Christianity is to be subject.

R.McG. She evidently had the water and proceeded to bring it, but this other request for a morsel of bread seems to be the difficulty.

J.T. Quite so. Yes, the first thing is he asked her to do something and she proceeds to do it. We are reminded of this principle in Matthew which agrees

largely with the ministry of Elijah; in chapter 28 the angel directs the woman to go and tell the disciples to go to Galilee, but the Lord intercepts them. They were doing what they had been told to do. The Lord meets them, saying "Hail" and He sends them to His brethren. The word 'disciples' is used first then 'my brethren'. The change is to bring out the dignity of the position. So the prophet here -- 1 Kings 17:10 -- says to the widow, "Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink"; there is the idea of a vessel. It might be said, but how could she bring water if she didn't put it in a vessel? but the Spirit of God is calling attention to the thought of a vessel. The point is to have things where they should be. The idea of a vessel ultimately develops into the person's own body -- like the woman of Samaria who left her waterpot and herself became a vessel.

Jno.G. Do you think, when it says here "Fetch me a little water" and "make me a little cake", it means that the servant as moving into these circumstances takes full knowledge of what is there and does not put too much strain on the woman's state?

J.T. Well, not too great a burden. He did not intend to, but it looked to her as if he were unreasonable and the natural mind would say he was unreasonable in asking a woman in these circumstances to bring him water in a vessel, that he might drink. And then as she went to fetch it he called to her and said "Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in they hand". The natural mind would say it was unreasonable to make such a request from a woman like that. Elijah is representative of God. He was sent to her and she is challenged and tested by the ministry as to whether she can do what is required of her, although it may seem unreasonable. What seems to be unreasonable may make us murmur. That is the

first thing in the book of Numbers -- the Israelites began to murmur. It is a question of learning obedience. The Lord Jesus learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

R.M. At the outset you spoke of the discipline of the servant. Is the discipline for Elijah here, in having to be maintained by a widow in such dire circumstances, or is it something further than that?

J.T. Well, the boy died while the prophet was in the house. The point was that he should become identified with the persons he was serving, but as we were saying as to verse 11 "And she went to fetch it, and he called to her and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thy hand. And she said, as Jehovah thy God liveth, I have not a cake". The woman used the word 'cake' first and not the prophet. The making of the cake would involve skill. In the book of Numbers Jehovah had prescribed that the people should offer dough -- not cakes but dough: but it requires skill to make a cake, and that enters into what we are saying. You may say that is a small thing to allude to, but I think all these small things ought to be noted, so that we are able to learn what a servant has to go through in his ministry. She said to him "As Jehovah thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but a handful of meal in a barrel and a little oil in a cruse; and behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die". That in itself seems to be an incongruity. Why should eating be connected with death. It shews the state of mind she was in. "And Elijah said to her, Fear not". When it is a question of spiritual things we should say "Fear not".

S.G. Are you suggesting that the incoming of a servant into a locality makes a demand on the brethren which at first they think they are unable to

meet; but as faced in obedience, we discover that God has made provision to meet all.

J.T. Yes, this is a crucial time for the widow, and the crucial time for Elijah will come when death takes place.

T.McC. Was it to bring out what was there that Elijah spoke thus to her?

J.T. Well, no doubt God had that in mind but we cannot say that Elijah knew all. He had to learn himself. God is over all and a servant has to understand that God is operating all the time -- He is never idle.

Ques. Do you see it in Peter and Cornelius's household? God was operating with Peter in one place and with Cornelius in another place at the same time.

J.T. Quite so. He began with Cornelius because of his piety too. He had a memorial in heaven before Peter had to do with him. It shews what God could do, even without Peter.

S.B. The prophet here seems to take account of her skill for he said "Go, do as thou hast said" -- not as I have said.

J.T. Quite so.

J.F.C. This woman was apparently listening to the word of Elijah, at a time when Israel was not listening at all, and at a time when God was not helping Israel at all. Would that be indicative of faith?

J.T. Just so. Evidently she had faith because God took her into His service just as He takes the ravens and the brook into His service, but she is on a higher plane.

J.F.C. She said "As Jehovah thy God liveth", showing that God had evidently been working with her.

J.T. Quite so. She is ready to say that all the

way through but does not recognise the prophet until she goes through the severe discipline of the death of her son. She finally says "Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of Jehovah in thy mouth is truth". She learned that at the end.

C.W.E. Is it suggestive that the name of this place, Zarephath, means a crucible -- a vessel in which metal is refined.

J.T. Very good. You mean that both Elijah and the woman have been refined.

R.McG. You spoke of being together for a whole year in the house. I was thinking that they would all learn during that period.

J.T. Then as to the refining process, it says "He" (the Lord) "shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver", Malachi 3:3. He is looking at us all the time and that makes it very serious as to what we may say.

S.G. So that in all these testing circumstances which the Lord allows His people to go through, the servant is learning also, as he goes through these circumstances with the saints.

J.T. You may be sure of that. We see that as we proceed in the chapter. The prophet had to cry to Jehovah. He is in straits himself. All this is most instructive. Elijah had said to her "Fear not" in these circumstances. We have to fear certain things but we should go forward in intelligence and in faith. The word "Make me thereof a little cake first" would suggest what brings God in, and it seems to be unreasonable, but God is testing us by it. Then it says "And afterwards make for thee and for thy son". You will notice that the prophet assumes that she has enough to do both. Now light is coming in on the position, and we may expect that light will come in. It says "Thus saith Jehovah the God of Israel: The meal in the barrel shall not waste, neither shall the oil in the cruse fail, until the day that Jehovah sendeth

rain upon the face of the earth!" Now as far as the facts go the only other one in the house is the boy who died. We may only have a few in the house, but it is a house and God regards it in that light, and here the woman is called the mistress of the house. The passage says "The meal in the barrel did not waste, neither did the oil in the cruse fail, according to the word of Jehovah which he had spoken through Elijah". Now all this was said before the breath left the boy, but until he was made alive the woman did not come to it that the prophet was a man of God and that the word of Jehovah in his mouth was truth.

Ques. Was this word about the barrel of meal and the cruse of oil a fresh word for Elijah himself?

J.T. Well, it may have been. I think he would learn by it, perhaps, that the widow had it in her mind that these things should be in vessels; that is, the meal should be in a barrel and the oil should be in a cruse. It doesn't say the water was in a vessel because the water was more in abundance -- the water had come to Elijah, as it were, by gravity, but still he used the word 'vessel' -- "Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel".

H.B. Does she take up the thought in that way, by bringing in the vessels?

J.T. Well, possibly. Although it was the prophet who used the word 'vessel' first. We are now coming into the presence of God in the thing. The light of God is coming in -- the abundance there is, for there is a whole year's food supply for those three persons.

Jno.G. Would you say a word as to what may be demanded of us that would appear to be unreasonable, so that we may understand the point you have in mind?

J.T. Well, one could say a lot on that point. Suppose a servant comes to your locality unexpectedly and you have not anything in the house and someone

asks could you take this brother in; that would be testing to many a housewife -- she may not know that the servant has arrived and yet he is in the locality and needs a bed and food.

Jno.G. Do you mean material things or spiritual?

J.T. Material things -- that is where the test comes.

S.B. Perhaps the test for us is that we may think it essential to go beyond what is necessary in that regard. In the case of the wealthy woman in 2 Kings it was merely "a bed, and a table, and a seat, and a lampstand".

J.T. That is so in Elisha's case. But here the bed was upstairs in the loft. The Authorised Version puts it that way. It seems as if it was in another part of the house -- in a loft. The loft would be inferior to the house generally.

P.J. Is God free to provide as a result of obedience? The widow could easily have said, I have only enough for me and my son.

J.T. What has been said by way of illustration ought, I think, to appeal to all the sisters here and the brothers have to fall in with it. We ought to join in with our wives in these cases and sacrifice with them. If a brother comes suddenly without a sister's knowledge and she is asked to provide a bed and food, well, we all have to sacrifice, otherwise one might become like the Israelites and be marked by a spirit of complaint. The children of Israel grumbled and complained, and in Acts it is recorded that certain complained because their widows were overlooked in the daily ministration.

F.B. Do you think that our pride would hinder us from asking a brother because it might let us down?

J.T. We ought to be on our guard against that side -- not to allow our spirits to be chafed and damaged by our circumstances.

F.B. Well, sometimes as it has been suggested here, there is not much in the house, but the brother is not looking for that.

J.T. Well indeed. It is a question of obedience, that is, if I can accept the circumstances cheerfully. It may be very trying for me to maintain a right spirit.

Ques. Does Abraham rise to the occasion in Genesis 18?

J.T. Of course he was a rich man; we have to bear that in mind too. He had plenty of means and plenty of servants, which of course we don't always find, but anyway he was ready to do the right thing.

W.G. Do you think that Matthew 10 might help us on this line -- "The workman is worthy of his nourishment?"

J.T. Just so. But perhaps if a sister is asked she may say 'Well, some other sister will have to do it -- she has more than I have'. That is where our spirits get chafed and we may chafe our husbands too. That is what Christianity implies; this chapter is really to bring out all these things in the service.

Ques. Do these testing circumstances show us how great God's provision is?

J.T. How God can come in. And He comes in in a miracle if necessary, as it was here. And it is all to bring out that He was with His servant -- He was a real prophet. The woman had learned that and she would never forget it, I am sure.

G.H.P. In regard to what is in our house, would the word in 2 Corinthians 8 apply -- "For if the readiness be there, a man is accepted according to what he may have, not according to what he has not"?

J.T. Yes, quite so.

C.W.E. "God loveth a cheerful giver".

J.T. He does indeed.

G.F.G. Had you in mind that when the woman is

referred to as the mistress of the house it is a very dignified name for her? Does it suggest that she is really with the Lord in relation to it?

J.T. I would think so, and God would dignify her. Our wives may be made drudges and that should not be. It never dignifies anyone to be made slavish in her work. I believe all the brethren should be dignified in what they are doing. It is that which governs you that makes the thing dignified. It is love that does that.

Geo.M. In a household such as this a son of peace would be there, as in the gospel. The disciples were told "And if a son of peace be there your peace shall rest upon it" and they were to abide in that same house.

J.T. Just so. That is another lesson to learn in these cases. We are to inquire if a son of peace be there.

S.G. Would you say that servants coming along may be a great test in regard to the way they move about -- they can be very unreasonable in their attitude and requests.

J.T. Well they may be very unreasonable sometimes, and a servant is to be on his guard not to be unreasonable.

Rem. In Luke 10, the scripture referred to, the word to the servant is "And in the same house abide, eating and drinking such things as they have".

J.T. Quite so -- "such things as they have".

J.W. If one who comes along seems to be unreasonable, might it not be to intensify the truth of what God can do. In these circumstances in 1 Kings 17 which seem only to provide for two persons, the addition of a third was testing.

J.T. Yes indeed. Then in verse 17 it says "And it came to pass after these things that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his

sickness was so severe that there was no breath left in him". She is called the mistress of the house, which is complimentary. It is a remarkable thing that it should be put that way. "And she said to Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come to me to call mine iniquity to remembrance, and to slay my son?" Now she is not right; she did well up to this point, although she may perhaps have been marked a little by lack of faith at the beginning, but generally she did well up to this, living the whole year, as you might say, miraculously, but she is not up to this matter. She is tested by the sickness of her son. The family is touched -- the son is touched. And she says "O thou man of God, art thou come to me to call mine iniquity to remembrance and to slay my son?" Circumstances such as these may bring out some hidden thing that needs to be exposed. She assumes that the prophet is seeking to do this on her, but he does not mean to do that at all, at least there is no evidence of it. And so he said to her "Give me thy son". What is he going to do now? He has done well so far, but what can he do now? Here is a boy who has died and he was the only son of his mother. "And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into the upper chamber where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. And he cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?" Now you see he is missing the point and this is really a solemn matter. He is saying "Jehovah, my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?" That is, he thought as she did, and what he thought was not right. Then it says that he stretched himself on the child three times, meaning that the servant identifies himself fully with what is in the house. "And cried to Jehovah and said, Jehovah, my God, I

pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again! And Jehovah heard the voice of Elijah, and the soul of the child came into him again, and he lived". The word "soul" here is to be noted. It is an inward thing, a thing involving deep feelings -- soul feelings. And it is most important that the minister should learn to feel with things in the household, whatever they be, and join in with the household and help in it in every way, making the matter his own because he is a minister.

J.F.C. Is that one reason why a servant should not go from house to house?

J.T. Well that is one of the reasons, because God is going to bring out what is in this house and shew if a son of peace be there. But this matter of stretching himself, of identification, should be noted. The servant has to learn to identify himself with such a position. The Lord Jesus entered into all this fully at Gethsemane and on the cross, so that we come to the real matter of Christianity and what service means in it.

W.H.T. Evidently there were not right conditions in the house of Dorcas. Peter had to put them all out. He could not identify himself with certain things there.

J.T. Quite so. And the house of Jairus too. The houses are not always right, but it was not so here. It was as much a test for Elijah as it was for the woman. He is seriously concerned that this thing should have happened while he was in the house, as if it came on him -- as if God was disciplining him while he was engaged in His service in this house. So the question comes, What is to be done? Then it goes on to say, "And Elijah took the child, and brought him down from the upper chamber into the house" -- that is what I was remarking earlier, that he was in some upper loft -- not just exactly the house; but he

was content to be there, and he takes the child up there. "And brought him down from the upper chamber into the house, and delivered him to his mother; and Elijah said, See, thy son lives". That was a triumph, and that is what the Lord is ready to vouchsafe to any servant. "And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of Jehovah in thy mouth is truth".

T.McC. What are we to learn from what you have been referring to; Elijah taking him up to his own chamber and laying him on his own bed?

J.T. Well, I think it is all to bring out that nature is in the way in these cases. One often feels there is too much of what is natural in families, too much family feeling and provision for that, too exclusive an attitude in family matters. I believe that is what is meant. The child is taken out of her bosom -- that is nature -- and is taken up by the prophet where there is nothing that would make much of what is natural. The prophet's chamber was a place where there was not much furniture -- a loft as it says in the Authorised version. It is separated from the house. He is not in the guest room, and he is just a prophet with them.

R.McH. She seems to have everything here -- even the upper chamber for the prophet, the man of God -- an elevated spot.

J.T. Yes, but it is not in the house. I think there is something in that to notice. It is not just the best or most desirable part of the dwelling which is often assigned to servants, but if they are wise they accept it. But here it is the position the child is brought into -- as if God would be in that as distinct from the widow's bosom.

S.B. Good circumstances in relation to a house may appeal to nature.

J.T. Well, it does very much, and often hinders

the work of God. One often feels too much nature, too much of what is natural in our circumstances, making too much of our children and the like, and perhaps not enough of the children of God. The children of God must have the greater place. John brings that in in his gospel. The Lord has given us the right to take the place of children of God.

T.McC. It seems to be that it took this incident with the widow to confirm her that this was a man of God.

J.T. Quite so. She did not know that at first. The 16th verse says "according to the word of Jehovah which he had spoken through Elijah", but now in verse 24 we have Elijah's mouth mentioned, which is a word we may look for. We have Peter's mouth referred to, also the Lord's mouth. "My mouth" Peter says. Now the woman speaks of Elijah's mouth, "that the word of Jehovah in thy mouth is truth". He had not such a place in her mind before, and of course it is God's mind to give His servants a greater place with those they serve, because the more love there is the better place they have.

H.M.H. Would the word in the 113th Psalm come in -- "He maketh the barren woman to keep house, as a joyful mother of sons?"

J.T. It would indeed, and we have already alluded to the widow in the 68th Psalm -- a well-known psalm.

Rem. Would Lydia's attitude be the proper one now for those who have received the light of the present position? She says "If ye have judged me to be faithful, .." We do well to keep that in our minds.

J.T. Quite so. I think she is one of the outstanding sisters of scripture. She and Phoebe, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, Deborah and a number of others -- we do well to keep such sisters in our minds because they adorn the doctrine.

IDENTIFICATION IN TESTIMONY AND IN HEAVEN

Acts 2:1 - 4; Luke 10:17 - 20; Hebrews 12:23 (part) "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" (N.T.)

It is in mind to speak of identification, and perhaps some increase of the thought, but identificationas here in testimony. We should be identified as here in testimony, and eventually, in our place in heaven, identified in our proper relative positions in heaven.

Now in the first Scripture in Acts 2, we have the identification of each one present suggested, alluding to those in the upper room. They were identified in the upper room by their names in chapter 1, and now in chapter 2 by the numeral one -- each one. That is, each one there is sitting; it is the sitting attitude. But in chapter 1 they are identified as the eleven apostles, and several women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brethren. These the Lord had selected in His sovereignty and also wrought in them to fit them for the great occasion -- one of the greatest occasions. That is to say, the inauguration of the assembly. It is an inaugural time. Other times had preceded it, of great importance, of course, and particularly in the Lord's remark as to the Supper, in view of instituting it, that it was before He suffered. Much is near His heart, I need not say, and John says more of what is in His heart than any of the other apostles. But it was before He suffered. And then in His presentation to the disciples in chapter 1, it is after He arose; as it is said, "after he had suffered". And following on that, the charge He gave His apostles by the Holy Spirit -- great and glorious suggestions, suggestions of power. "By the Holy Spirit" He charged them, indicating how the matter stands today. It is a question of the Holy Spirit here below and the

Lord Jesus above. One Advocate above, and Another here. How wonderfully well off we are, dear brethren.

And then His ascension to heaven; His ascension to heaven having in mind much, how much, who can say? The unwritten, the unspoken thoughts of God that have existed throughout all this period of time, all this dispensation, the dispensation of the Spirit. Nineteen hundred years or more. All that was ahead. The Lord, however, did not give any inkling that the time should be long or short ere it should be terminated. So that we have to weigh in our minds thoughtfully what has happened all these years, these centuries. We may read human histories; many are extant. But who can tell the history of heaven? And yet it has a history. What thoughts are there, cherished there. Unspoken, too, publicly. But still the dispensation runs on.

It says that they, the apostles, spoke to Him, asking whether He would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. That was in their minds. Their minds were not as large as His, not as large as heaven, they did not extend to include the counsels of God. And the Lord has to say to them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power". But He immediately said, "Ye shall be my witnesses". That is the point for us, dear brethren, to be His witnesses. His witnesses because we are the subject of His work. Witnesses also as qualified to bear witness to Him in word, in speaking; in preaching or in teaching, or in whatever it may be, we bear witness to the Lord.

Well, that is so far. And the Lord having said all this, He was taken up. It was the time of heaven's intervention. And what feelings must have been there, dear brethren, at that time. "The Son of man who is in heaven" even while down here, is now going up. It is said He was taken up into heaven, they

beholding Him. They are to be the ones on whom all the great responsibilities should rest for the moment "They beholding Him, and a cloud received him out of their sight". The time came when they saw nothing. They were to learn to look with other eyes, to see beyond the clouds. A cloud received Him out of their sight, but they were to have eyes to penetrate the clouds. The heavens were opened, we are told, in Stephen's case.

But I am now speaking of what is leading up to this passage. That is to say, the heavens received Him. And Peter tells us later that heaven must receive Him. "Whom heaven indeed must receive till the times of the restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began". Acts 3:21. That is the position. Whatever has been spoken by the holy prophets of God since time began, up to this very minute. All that has to wait until the final moment when the Lord Jesus will come forth, not in a private sense but in a public sense. He will come forth. That is the thing that we are to love, to look forward to, to love His appearing. Not simply His coming, but His appearing, when He appears. The heaven must receive Him until the times of restitution of all things. That is to say, what the prophetic ministry points forward to. When that arrives, great things will happen on the earth. In heaven, too, but particularly on the earth, in a physical sense. At the present time it is earth's time in a moral sense, the greatest possible sense, the presence of the Holy Spirit here below. That is now the position.

So in the passage I read in Acts 2 it says, "When the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were

sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". Now this is why I read the whole passage -- the identification of the persons whom the Lord had spoken to. He had assembled with them, meaning that He has the assembly in mind and would inaugurate the thought and would fill their minds with it, so that they should know how to assemble during all this wonderful period. And let us remember, dear brethren, that day still holds; that on the first day of the week it is our privilege to assemble -- not simply to come together but to assemble -- to break bread. It carries with it all the authority involved in the assembly here below, Christ the Head of it above.

I am now speaking of the identification of the persons. There were only a few, apparently, at the most about a hundred and twenty. Not that they are mentioned in that way here, but we assume that it was so. They were all together in one place, it says. And each one is identifiable by the means mentioned in the 3rd verse, "There appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them". (N.T.). They are marked off in that sense. What men they were. The exact names of the persons are not given, but we cannot doubt it would include the women, the Lord's mother and the several women also. And they are all to be identified. What a thing it is, dear brethren, to be identified in this sense, that is, with cloven tongues like as of fire sitting upon each one of us! Of course I can easily understand that one might say it is not literal, it is not actual now. But the thing that happened is actual, carried out in actuality in the power of the Spirit. Nothing has happened that is not carried in the assembly in the power of the Spirit. Things are held, they are carried,

in the power of the Spirit, so that they are here in their moral sense. Hence the identity of each one of us, in the Spirit sitting upon each one, in the form of fire. "Cloven tongues like as of fire" -- really the allusion is to the Spirit. What that would imply as to the tongues. These are divine tongues. Think of the Lord Jesus: what a tongue, and what a mouth! As also in Peter, what a tongue, and what a mouth! Peter says in chapter 15, "... the Gentiles by my mouth …".

God attaches importance to our organs. And so the word comes to us as to what about our tongues, dear brethren. This is the divine idea in principle. That as they were sitting, they saw this, according to verse 3 of chapter 2. There appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them. It is said in verse 2, "Suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting". That is another thing. The sound was heard. The sound filled all the house. And the sound is still to be heard, if you understand, in the application of divine truth. What the Holy Spirit conserves here, what He holds down here, using whom and what He pleases. And who is there among us who does not wish to be used in this matter? Because it continues, the Holy Spirit continues. He is the same as He was then. He is as much here now as He was then, as much available as He was then. The sound is carried down. And what a sound, too, if one may speak in detail. It was a breathing, a hard breathing. Not simply an ordinary wind, but breathing. Breathing is from the lungs, if you can understand that. Think of the lungs of God, if I might speak reverently. The Lord Jesus breathed on the disciples: think of the tenderness, the sympathy, the mutual feeling that entered into that! You may say that is greater than what we are speaking

of. I am speaking of the hard breathing. What can all the armies and navies of the world do in the face of this, this powerful breathing direct from the lungs of the blessed God! For that is what it was. Let us accept it. It is really a time of believing, dear brethren, believing what is written and realising the facts, so that it becomes real to our souls that we are in the very midst of the things.

I have already alluded in prayer to the number here. I am thankful for them. I have seen many such numbers, and I am delighted. Not because I am being listened to, but because God is being listened to. And there will be more, and the quality will increase. And so the ministry is a matter to be noted. All this enters into what I am pointing out, this mighty movement of breath, hard powerful breathing, the sound of it filling the house. We have often been touched at the thought of the odour of Mary's ointment, Mary of Bethany; the odour filled the house. Now it is the Spirit of God Himself; the mighty breath of God by the Spirit here on earth on the day of Pentecost filled the house.

And then it goes on to say, as I said before, "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". So, as I have suggested already, what about our tongues? Because they are in mind here, notice. It is not our feet or our hands. They have their place, of course; there is walking, and there is doing, working. As Paul says, "These hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me" Chapter 20, verse 34. Even those who minister are to use their hands as well as their tongues, and to do things for others because it is not the idea to be always on the platform. But then, what about our tongues?

Not that I am here to exhort at this time, but rather to unfold the truth of this wonderful matter and then to go on to something else, namely, the assembly viewed not here on earth but in heaven, For we have come to that, we are told in Hebrews. But we can go further, and say we are of that. We belong to it. Hebrews does not go so far as that. It says, "Ye have come ... to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". And also to refer to chapter 10 of Luke about the same thing.

Well, about our tongues. Let us see whether there is the poison of asps. That is what James depicts in his epistle, and what is so solemn. "The tongue is a little member, and boasts great things. See how little a fire, how large a wood it kindles!" Sometimes you see thousands and thousands of acres on fire, and a little box of matches, or one match, may have started it. The tongue has great power for good or for evil. So we are reminded how much we may set on fire by our tongues. "Which sets fire to the course of nature", James says, "and is set on fire of hell". In order to get to our chapter we have to learn to judge these things, which means, of course, much from the epistles to be understood, to apply the death of Christ to our tongues, because it is a question of the new man. The new man has a tongue, and the old man has, too, alas! But the new man is true to all of us who are Christians. And the new man would speak right things, words of peace, words of truth. It is a time of speaking peace to one another. Peace coming out of heaven to us, for that is what the Lord Jesus says three times in John 20, "Peace unto you". I would urge all the young people to read the 3rd chapter of James tonight, to show how easily we may slip into the use of our tongues in a false and wicked way, so that we may learn to judge all that and to arrive at what it says here, "They ... began to speak with other

tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". And what did they speak about? The wonderful works of God. That is what they were speaking about. This matter of speaking may mean long speeches at times, if necessary. We are told that at Troas, as they assembled to break bread, Paul discoursed to them till midnight -- a long discourse. It only reminds us as to what I have been saying about our tongues. That we may learn to get other tongues. That is, the new man bringing forth purified thoughts, speaking right things, speaking peace and love to one another.

I am now speaking of this wonderful event, this mighty breathing, and the evidence of it in the tongues. And what opportunities there are, now there is peace on earth. It will be only a little while, dear brethren. Not that I am prophesying, but I read the Scriptures and I can see it is not for very long. "When they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them". 1 Thessalonians 5:3. These are honest facts, and it is for us to face them, and to understand the times. What times they are. Thirty years ago the times were difficult, but not so bad as now; what can we say about thirty years hence? But this we can say, This time is ours. And God has opened up doors to us and He has given men ability to preach the gospel, to teach, and to do other things. It is a time to be doing. And so this book I have read from begins with this, "All things which Jesus began both to do and to teach". First doing, then teaching. Then in the 2nd chapter three thousand persons are converted, and they persevered in the teaching of the apostles. You say, How wonderful! It is no accident that the three thousand are mentioned. It is to show what God can do under given circumstances. And what can He not do under these circumstances which we are in? It is a question, dear brethren, of our being ready, and what is to be

done. Whatever our hands find to do, to do it. Luke says by the Spirit in Acts 1, "All things which Jesus began both to do and to teach". So that, as I am saying, it is a great opportunity for us at this present moment. I am certain of it. It is no question of prophecy. It is something anyone can see if one has discernment. I would quote David, "Blessed be thy discernment". And of the children of Issachar, it says they had understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do.

It is a question of doing. God has been doing great things, terrible things, but He has brought His people through. What a doing that was! Another Exodus, as it were, reminding us of when the Lord Jesus will come to take His people out of it altogether. It is simply a prelude to that. He is going to do it thoroughly and effectively. Every one of us will be caught up. In Acts 8, a great evangelist was caught away by the Spirit. I mean Philip the evangelist. Not Philip the apostle, but Philip the evangelist. He is a different man. What a great person! He had an experience that no other evangelist had, as far as I know. No evangelist was ever raptured by the Spirit of God except Philip. He was let down to the earth again to continue his preaching; he was found at Azotus, we are told, and passing through he announced the glad tidings to all the cities till he came to Caesarea. But it was Peter who evangelised Cornelius, in Caesarea. That was Peter's work. I am only speaking of what enters into the moment. The idea of being ready in the service of God. And again, we find Peter in an ecstasy, another great event. An ecstasy is not exactly a rapture. That is to say, the Spirit caught away Philip, and he was then found at Azotus. But Peter was on the housetop; he went up on the housetop to pray. We have inklings of what enters into the service. And who of us is not in it?

It is our opportunity. And so Peter was on the housetop, getting a wonderful outlook into the field of God, into the Mediterranean. That is the sphere of Paul's labours; he says, "From Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ". Romans 15:19. That is the idea that has come down to us, and it is intended to enlarge our hearts and to teach us to be evangelical, to seize the opportunity according to God.

Peter went up to the housetop to pray; not to get a view of the Mediterranean, I do not mean that at all. There is not much in such views. There is not much in those bags strapped over the shoulder; I do not think much of them. I am speaking now of where we are in our eyes and in our feelings, that our own sphere is above. We are away from home when we are down here. We are not in our place at all but we are in a place of testimony. We may find it difficult, but we are to be with God in doing something, accomplishing something. It is a time of work, dear brethren. So Peter was on the housetop, he had gone there to pray, and he became hungry and desired to eat. But as they were making ready an ecstasy came upon him, and he saw the heaven opened and a certain vessel descending unto him, as a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to earth, in which were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. It all pointed to what God can do in spite of what men think. Peter did not understand, but he came to it. If we do not come to it, we do not understand the assembly. In that sheet let down from heaven, in which were all manner of four-footed beasts of the earth, and in the three occasions, too, what history for heaven and for earth!

And now I proceed to the second passage read, as to the matter being written in heaven. It is said in

the 1st verse of Luke 10, that the Lord appointed seventy other's also, and sent them two and two before His face into every city and place, whither He Himself would come. Seventy others were taken up as well as the twelve, and they had wonderful success. In verse 17 it says, "The seventy returned again with joy" -- an experience we all have in the Lord's service -- "saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you". These are very encouraging words for those who are in the service, and all of us. "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven". Now it is only just a word as to this, which leads up to the passage in Hebrews. That is, the Lord is dignifying us as we proceed in His service, we are mighty men in service. The demons were subject to them, they said, through His name. They did not attribute it to themselves; they attributed it to His name, which is to their credit. This is what they said to the Lord. They say, "Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name". Now the Lord says to them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven". I do not stop to dwell on this. It is a prophetic suggestion, how the devil will be turned out of heaven, the great war. We know about the war spoken of in Revelation. I do not stop to dwell on that, but it is involved in this.

And later in Luke, chapter 19, instead of peace on earth, as was said by the angels at the Lord's birth, it is peace in heaven. "Peace in heaven, and glory in the highest". That is what Luke presents in his gospel, what we may look for, And I need not say

that that must come about before there will be peace on earth. We get "On earth peace" in chapter 2, but in chapter 19 it is "Peace in heaven". And that involves our place in heaven. Our place is up there This is not our place. Our place is up there. It is as simple as anything can be as presented in the Scriptures. And the question is, Are we getting ready for it? When you are getting to seventy or eighty you begin to see the necessity for it. Perhaps you have not seen the necessity for it yet, but I have and many others have, too. We are enjoined to "number our days, that we may acquire a wise heart". Psalm 90:12. Not to be foolish in old age, but just to be getting ready for heaven, for going to be with the Lord, to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

"This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come ..." Acts 1:11. It is the public appearing of the Lord, which we are enjoined to love; we are to love His appearing. "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". The interim in all this is leading on to over nineteen centuries. And what a history in heaven we shall see presently! The whole of Paul's doctrine, the whole of Paul's work, the whole result of his work will be seen. Well, that is the position we are in, waiting for the Lord to return. "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven". I verily believe that the Lord's Supper, in the sense of order and continuous thoughts, the order that enters into the Supper and all that follows, all are intended to bring us into conformity with the Lord's ways, His manner. "In like manner". There is to be correspondence with all that belongs to heaven in all our ways here until the Lord takes us all up into glory.

Well now, just to finish. How thoughtful the Lord

was, not discrediting what they were doing, but indicating that they had to learn how to rejoice. I wonder whether I know how to rejoice really in the sense in which the Lord spoke of it. He spoke of it in His own experience. And Paul speaks of it, "Rejoice", he says to the Philippians, "and again I say, Rejoice". It is that we may learn how to rejoice, to be buoyant; and yet working, doing the thing that is needed, and doing it well. And so the Lord recognises what they did, but He says, "Not withstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven".

Now I go on to the last passage read. We are viewed as having come to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven. We are seen in that chapter, Hebrews 12, as coming to this. What I am seeking to bring out now is that we belong to it. Hebrews does not take us on to that, but Ephesians does. Ephesians tells us that we are already made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. It is anticipatively so. And that is what we want to understand, dear brethren, that we belong to heaven. It has to be said in the sense of anticipation, it is true. "God ... has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus". We may reach it in our assembly service. I would urge it again, what is involved in the service of God, what is opened up to us through the Lord's service, the manner of Christ, the ways of heaven come down here in the service of God. All intending that we should be led up.

And see, the Spirit's power
Has ope'd the heav'nly door,
Has brought us to that favoured hour
When toil shall all be o'er. (Hymn 74)

Well, the writer of that hymn knew something of what I have been saying, what it involves, the heavenly position, the heavenly place, heavenly experience. What belongs to the service of God up there, and what we belong to eternally, we are already touching. And so it is, as I said, "the assembly of the firstborn". The Authorised version does not give the sense. It is in the plural, referring to the firstborn in Egypt, but particularly to the Levites. I would direct you to the 3rd chapter of Numbers, which speaks about the family of the Levites, and the 4th chapter which speaks about the service of the Levites. The family is what we are speaking of now. The family of the Levites was taken instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel. And that is what is here, that every one in the assembly is a firstborn, which is not possible in any other family. It is the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven. I would advise you to read and understand the 23rd verse of this chapter, Hebrews 12. Read all the items there mentioned, the whole passage, as to what we come to, and then understand that one of the things we come to is composed of ourselves, it is the assembly of the firstborn, every one is a firstborn, "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven". We come to that. But we are it. Ephesians contemplates that we are already caught up to heaven and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

May the Lord bless the word.

THE ASSEMBLY IN HER WIFELY RELATIONS

Exodus 18:1 - 5; 1 Samuel 25:1 - 3, 14 - 19, 32 - 33.

J.T. What is in mind is to speak about the assembly in her wifely relations, and it is thought that Moses should be considered first, and then David, especially as these two servants of God are engaged in great things, and the marital matter is brought in evidently in relation to these things; Moses in view of the law on Mount Sinai (or Mount Horeb), and David in view of the kingdom which he was about to receive. The assembly is viewed thus in the testimony of God as in relation to Christ in view of things happening on earth, but originating in heaven. It will be seen that the types of the assembly in a feminine, wifely, sense treat of Christ in type as engaged with great things, nothing, as it were, being in mind save that she is in evidence. What is in mind in heaven is that the saints now forming the assembly are to have part in these great things. Thus Zipporah comes in here after she had been sent back, the Exodus having taken place; she is here evidently in view of the beginning of the law, with all that might be implied typically as to the assembly's part in this.

A.J.G. What answers in our day to what you are connecting with the thought of the giving of the law?

J.T. It would be what is set out in the New Testament, the epistles to the Corinthians particularly, involving also the ministry of Paul recorded in the Acts. I think it would be seen by examination of the Acts that the book has in mind the complete position of Christianity, the complete position of the assembly down here in testimony, not only what was set out in the twelve, but in Paul's ministry; the appearings of the Lord after He rose were to impress the disciples with Himself and continued historically

until Paul arrived. The second narrative of Luke begins with an allusion to certain omissions in the first narrative, which was incomplete. It does take us to the ascension of Christ, but omits the important item of the Lord's sojourn for forty days among the brethren coming in and going out amongst them. Luke alludes to that in the second treatise, and it runs on to the transfer of the gospel to the Gentiles, the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, we are told in the last chapter of the Acts, and they would receive it. What has been alluded to begins earlier, because Paul's ministry began earlier, and the assembly had a great place there, so that the introduction of the testimony of the gospel to Europe and its outgoings, was accompanied by the presence of the assembly, and it is intended to continue to the end.

A.J.G. You mean the assembly is there a kind of support to the testimony going out in that way?

J.T. Yes, and a softening influence; the feminine influence was intended to be modifying and softening, involving the gospel being applied in a more gracious and tender and sympathetic way, as we see for instance, in women like Lydia and Phoebe and the influence they exerted. Other similar references, too, are to be found in the epistle to the Philippians -- the peculiarly tender consideration for the apostle; he says that they had fellowship with him in the gospel from the beginning. The Corinthian ministry specially requires the presence of the assembly, because the assembly is there called "the Christ" in the first epistle, as if she exerted great influence in view of the continuance of the position in testimony, and much is made of woman's service, her silence stressed at the same time, and yet her influence. What is said in chapter 11 as to the headship of God, and of Christ, and of man is notable, as though that headship would greatly augment the service of sisters

in the testimony, and the rule is to be universal, ordained in all the assemblies. So that there can be no special customs or rules in the testimony; they are all to be unified, and emanate from the Head. There should be no special customs in any locality; all are to be regulated on the principle of headship, and hence in the second letter the apostle says he has espoused the saints at Corinth to Christ, to one Man. It is rather a wide scope, and one wishes to be concrete, concise and brief in setting out the truth, but what has been said I am sure is necessary to bring the subject before us. We have to learn to learn, because we are apt to listen and forget what we hear. The point is to be learners. The Lord has set the example Himself having His ear opened as a learner; the Magdalene designates Him as her Teacher. She is specifying the kind of teacher she would have, and that Christ is to be that Teacher.

W.C. Would that fit in with Proverbs 1:8, "My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother"?

J.T. Just so, and then the great example at the end of that book, the acrostic production of the author, making so much of it, as if it were to be written down so carefully, the alphabet brought into it. "Who can find a woman of worth?" the writer says, and then she is described -- the ideal, and Abigail answers to the ideal, and I think the women mentioned already such as Phoebe and Lydia represent the ideal.

Ques. Do you mean they typify the assembly rather than the sisterhood?

J.T. What must be in mind is the assembly; the sisterhood must merge into the assembly. The sisterhood is suggested in the relatives of Abraham, the daughters of Terah.

Rem. I was thinking of your reference to the

wifely place the assembly has and connecting it with the New Testament. You spoke of Phoebe and Lydia, and of the service of sisters. I was wondering whether you had in mind that those two sisters set forth the feminine side assemblywise, rather than the feminine side as we speak of it amongst the sisterhood.

J.T. That is right. Whether Phoebe or Lydia had husbands I am not prepared to say, but they certainly fit in with the sisterly qualities needed amongst us. I alluded to Terah's family because that family was to furnish the wives for the men of faith, in principle at least, and suggests the idea of kindred relations with Christ, that we are of the same kindred as Christ; the foreign element is excluded, all mixture is excluded. Zipporah is not specially honoured in the position, but she fills out what is needed in regard of the mediator, and therefore can be brought down to the idea of the opening up of the epistles to Corinth, bringing out the assembly's place, and how comely it is supposed to be, so as to give weight to the authority of the apostle. Zipporah never shone very much, but she is a wife, and Corinth did not shine either, but the wifely principle was there.

Ques. You mean Paul would hold them to it?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, and he enjoins as to the comeliness of women's hair, chapter 11, and silence imposed on them, and then the allusion later to the espousal. The thought of the assembly is there evidently intended to give weight to the instruction in the letters.

G.W.B. Does the word in chapter 6, verse 17, "he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit", bear upon what you have in mind?

J.T. I would think so. There is a certain marital allusion there. One principle in the scripture is that the abstract idea of anything is usually present, sufficiently there to be called attention to at any time.

A.J.G. Is that illustrated in Paul's saying, "We have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God". The assembly was there supporting the ministry.

J.T. Very good. The allusion is to the assembly generally, and what characterises it.

W.C. Would Zipporah here as brought back to Moses be like the second epistle to the Corinthians? Nothing is said to discredit her here?

J.T. Very good. I would go with that.

W.C. It mentions the word 'wife' though it does not in the original link, as if she had been adjusted.

J.T. That is important: she is there anyway. The idea is there enough to carry out what we are dealing with. It is a line running right through scripture from Genesis 2 to the end of the book of Revelation.

P.H.H. Would the two sons suggest some substantial fruit out of this assembly link?

J.T. I think so. What was in Moses' mind in naming them is that the names of the two sons would be there in the house. The name of the one was Gershom, and the name of the other was Eliezer. They are given at length, so that the meaning attached to their names would be always usable to call attention to the truth involved. These boys, or young men, would always be available to call attention to the principles in the names.

P.H.H. Would the sojourning confirm the idea of the assembly being here a heavenly vessel, but only on sojourn, but the second son the help received in the sojourn?

J.T. Quite so, it shows the history of Moses, what he had found. It is given in chapter 2, verses 21 - 22: "And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said I have been a stranger in a strange land", this

being his experience. The other is "God is my help"; in Genesis 15 God takes up the ground of being Abraham's shield. This is somewhat akin to Moses' use of "Eliezer".

C.H. If Zipporah represents the assembly in her public side, is there significance in the fact of the 'in-law' position, which seems to be stressed here? It is mentioned four times over in the first seven verses.

J.T. Quite so. It does right down the chapter. That is the relation is recognised; somewhat distant, but to be recognised. There are many today in that relation with us. They are real children of God, they are 'in-laws', we cannot disown them, but cannot go very far with them, which is important. We have an exercise about them anyway.

J.R.S. I think we would like to understand what the 'in-law' position is.

J.T. Persons somewhat at a distance from us, but we must own them in that distance. Moses went as far as he could, although other scriptures would indicate that the relation between them was not of any great importance if we regard Jethro as Hobab. He stayed in the wilderness; he would not go with the people of God all the way. There are many like that.

C.H. It is in these circumstances that Zipporah, the wife of Moses is introduced here, as though in a certain sense the legal bond with her is also stressed.

J.T. Her legal bond is of course stressed; it is going through typically.

Rem. Really there is no distance in that she is called his wife.

J.T. She is not a concubine, which implies degradation of the feminine sex. She is called his wife here.

J.P.H. Perhaps we should be helped more in everything if we unitedly and assemblywise were

thoroughly with the Lord in all that He would bring in amongst us in a regulating way. You get Zipporah with Moses in the giving of the law.

J.T. I think that is the way it is to be held. Eve and Rebekah, and other women in the book of Genesis had a wifely place without much more said of them, but still they were there. Even Joseph's wife has not much said about her, but she is there as if the abstract thought is to be there. We are to be with the Lord in all that is current in His mind as He is in heaven and we here, but there is the idea of union which has not been much touched upon among us in our service for many years, but it has to be borne in mind that union exists between Christ and the assembly.

J.J.T. Is it noticeable that in Genesis 15 where the thought of God is my helper comes out, the question arises in regard of an heir and a son with Abraham. Abraham was concerned about a son at that moment.

J.T. You get the word of God brought in for the first time, which is another matter to be noted. The word of God implies that which discloses His mind in so far as it goes.

J.J.T. I wondered whether the thought of continuity was particularly in Abraham's mind, something for God on earth.

J.T. That was in his mind and carried through though there were blemishes in the effort, and that has to be taken account of, so that the seed runs through according to the word; it is a question of the word of God. "In Isaac shall thy seed be called".

A.M. How does the beginning of Romans 7 fit in, "being to another", and then "bearing fruit to God"?

J.T. The allusion of course is to the death of Christ accepted in our souls. The "married to another" is on that ground, not on the ground of

divorce, but on the ground of the death of the first husband.

P.H.H. Would you say a little more about the mention of union? What have you in mind? Should we mention it more in assembly service as known amongst us?

J.T. Yes, the first mention is very early. It is worked out particularly in Colossians and Ephesians, but the first mention of it is in the well-known scripture in Genesis 2, where it is said: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh", verse 24. That is where union is first mentioned -- one flesh. With us it is a spiritual matter between Christ and the assembly. We are united to Him by the Spirit, but we are of the same kindred. New birth and generation form our relation with God, but our relation with Christ is by union.

Ques. Would that fact underlie the right exercise of affection in the marital relations between Christ and the assembly at the Supper?

J.T. I think so; it would come in there no doubt. We are a little uncertain in our minds whether we should take the ground of brethren of Christ at first in our service, or whether we should begin with union. I think scripture shows that we should begin as brethren. Hebrews 2 begins with the brethren, and goes on to Christ singing in the assembly, so it seems as if we ought to take on the thought of brethren first.

Ques. Would you make any distinction between brethren as presented in Matthew's gospel and in John's gospel?

J.T. I should, because John is on a higher level. He records what the Lord said to Mary, that she should not touch Him because He had not yet ascended to His Father. Then He goes on to say: "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my

Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God". The relation is there on a higher level than in Matthew I would say. In Matthew it is because we are doing the will of God we are known as His brethren, and so in Mark and Luke, but John is distinctive, the relation is heavenly. "My brethren" is a heavenly relationship.

Ques. Would that involve association with the ascending Man?

J.T. I would say that. It is a remarkable expression -- "he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one". Of one order. That precedes the idea of brethren and the idea of singing in the assembly.

P.H.H. When you say the idea of brethren should come first, are you thinking of John 20?

J.T. Yes, the kindred -- "all of one".

A.J.G. Brethren in Hebrews 2 are on John's level.

W.C. Would not the brethren in the synoptic gospels flow out of the basic relationship in John?

J.T. I think we should look at the facts. The first is in Matthew 12, verses 49 - 50, "And, stretching out his hand to his disciples, he said, Behold my mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother". I think we can see that is not just the same as John 20. It is really on moral lines there -- His brethren -- but in John 20 it is a statement of His own as to the disciples' relation with His Father. He is constituting them His brethren, that the Father is His Father and their Father, that they have the same Father, He and the disciples. That is not just what we have read -- "Behold my mother and my brethren". He is in the heavens and we are down here, that is not the idea in John 20. He is ascending, and we are His brethren as ascending. It is a moral setting in Matthew 12.

Ques. Is that what you have in mind? At the

outset of assembly service the moral side must be there constitutionally first, or have you the thought of association with the ascending Man also there?

J.T. I would think the latter exclusively. Matthew 12:49 would be what marks us when we go in and sit down together before the service commences. We are just brethren, not exactly Christ's brethren, but brethren on moral lines.

If we look at Luke 8 we see what the side is there -- "My mother and my brethren are those who hear the word of God and do it", verse 21, not the will of God, but the word -- a kindred, but a different thought.

W.C. Mark gives the will of God, not the will of My Father.

J.T. The synoptic gospels are all on one line; John is distinctive -- a distinctive line based on ascending, so that when Christ came in He came in from heaven. That is the principle. Mary was not to touch Him before that, but when He came into the company she could touch Him then; Thomas certainly did.

W.C. I wondered whether the view of the Lord's brethren in the synoptic gospels could be connected with the assembly as morally akin with Him viewed in the loaf, doing the will of God. You said when He comes in it is from heaven and we touch the thought of brethren of the ascended Man; we rise in the service.

J.T. When we are giving thanks for the loaf, we do not view Him as present, but the assembly is there. Hence the Lord's supper takes place in Jerusalem so to speak, which is said to be spiritually Sodom and Egypt.

W.C. Does this in the synoptics take account of the saints as in the wilderness, John more as in the land?

J.T. A clear way of putting it, which I hope all will take in.

P.H.H. Jonathan comes before Abigail in I Samuel. Does that fit in at all here? David speaks of Jonathan as "my brother". Does that suggest this line of brethren?

J.T. Yes; I have spoken of the love between Jonathan and David as masculine love -- "passing the love of women". When we get on to the idea of brethren and sons of God these relations lift us above the level of the synoptic gospels. It is not a question of what we are morally after the Lord comes in, but what we are as of His order, the same order as Christ, which is typically seen in Abraham's urgency as to kindred; the wife must be of the same kindred as Isaac. That is what Abraham caused the servant to swear to, which shows what an important matter it is and that principle is touched on in Hebrews 2, in which the writer says, "Both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one". Not all one, but of one, which is a peculiar form of expression which implies they are of the same order -- a wonderful thing if we take it in. Not that we partake of Deity, but we partake in the nature of Christ as Man.

A.J.G. So that we must be brethren according to John in order to enter into union.

J.T. That is the idea exactly. Colossians and Ephesians deal with it collectively as in Paul's doctrine.

F.C.H. Do you distinguish between the thought of brethren and sons?

J.T. There is a distinction. Brethren are related to Christ and the sons to the Father, but they are the same persons and viewed together as the assembly. The feminine idea is attachable to them.

F.C.H. I notice in regard of Zipporah that the first time the wife is mentioned first and then the sons, but the second time the sons are mentioned first and then the wife.

Ques. We should like some more help in regard to the order of the service. The Lord has greatly stressed the thought of remembrance of Himself in the Supper both in connection with the cup as well as the loaf, and it seems to have given opportunity for the affections in the marital relation being released. Would not union underlie that?

J.T. I think so, where you have affection aroused.

Ques. Where would you place sonship in the service of God? Have we not thought that the marital side was what was peculiarly for the heart of Christ, but would those who form the assembly have the same relationship as Himself Godward, and would praising in the assembly involve our place in sonship?

J.T. I would say that. Therefore I venture to put the thought of Sons and the thought of brethren into one, because they are the same persons, and thus they form the assembly. She bears a feminine character from that point in the sense that she is related to Christ as the bride, or as the wife, but she also has a place with the Father, because Matthew says the king made a marriage for his son, and John the baptist says, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", so that if we segregate the idea of brethren by itself, and then bring in the idea of sons, but think of the same persons, we can introduce the thought of the bride. At the same time if both thoughts are there and merge in the assembly, I do not see why we could not speak then to the Father of His sons, we being His sons in our relation as brethren with Christ. I am afraid there may be confusion in some minds and brethren may think there is contradiction. We were thinking, some of us, this morning of the way that Luke writes one treatise and finishes it, and ignores the forty days, meaning he is not giving so much time to the matter of the Lord's ascension as

he gives in his second treatise, because the Acts says He was forty days before He went up. The question is now as a practical example, whether the brethren ought not to be patient in these matters, not to be too quick, but let the Lord come in amongst us forty days and see how we get on.

Rem. I think the thing is becoming clearer in our minds, and in our hearts, by your linking the thought of brethren in John with sonship.

J.T. Yes, and also in the prolongation of the narrative. The first stops at Luke 24, and the Lord is seen carried up into heaven. The next narrative runs along to Paul, and tells us that the Lord had been forty days with the disciples, and that He came in and went out during that time. Paul tells us later in Corinthians that he also had an appearing, so that the time elapsing from the first narrative by Luke until the full thought of the mystery of God has come into evidence is considerable, several years I would say before the matter was completed, and that would show there is need of care and patience so that we may arrive at the whole truth.

A.J.G. And the Lord is giving fresh touches of glory to the truth all the time.

Ques. Has that any link with the waters in Ezekiel that cannot be passed over? There seems to be a continual development in the truth as we are able to bear it.

C.W. When the Lord speaks in John of the Holy Spirit He says "He will guide you into all truth", and then, "he will show you things to come". Does that mean there are things to come? The time arrives when these are made known?

J.T. A time comes when they are current. I would not say the word of God is not completed at any time as Paul said it was completed by him, but the principle is there, that a long time elapsed for the

whole truth to come out. His ministry was the completion of the word of God.

P.H.H. What you state about the brethren and the sons would be what the saints are, and that encourages us as being able to enter into all these thoughts of the Lord Jesus and of the Father. That would help us in whatever there is to come.

J.T. I certainly think so, and how we all merge bearing the same characteristics, because the sons of God and the brethren of Christ are co-relative, of equal value.

C.W. In relation to the service of the assembly, the feminine thought is what the church is peculiarly to Christ Himself, but when it comes to the service of God we have Christ and the assembly moving together in relation to which Christ is leading. Is that so?

J.T. It would be wider than that. It is a question of the testimony too. There is one thing that comes out in the early part of the subject. Isaac and Rebekah become united in regard of the testimony down here. The type implies they are heavenly. Isaac did not come down after he was offered up. It does not say he came down, that means he is a heavenly man, but Rebekah comes in at the end of the 22nd chapter outstandingly in relation to Abraham's family, and now Abraham disappears from the narrative. The servant now deals with Isaac and Rebekah. Isaac is his master, and all that he relates is not to Abraham, although he must have been there; it is a question of what he relates to Isaac, meaning that the testimony is carried on by Isaac and Rebekah; Abraham is no longer treated as in it, the line is carried on in them. So the thought of Christ and the assembly is wider than the actual service of God when we are together. Christ and the assembly are caring for the testimony. The whole testimony of God is in their hands, and I

think that is important too, because it enables us to think of the place the assembly has in all that the Lord is doing in heaven; she is taken into it.

That brings us to Abigail. It is a great matter now, an important epoch. Samuel is dead, and David arose (verse 1), and then we are told about Abigail, "she was a woman of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance". Then in verse 14 it says that one of the young men told Abigail about Nabal; she is brought into the matter. It is an important matter, because there is an attack on David, and she is brought into it. At the end of the chapter David says: "blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand", verse 33. That bears out what has been said already, the assembly has a modifying effect in the ministry and in the preaching of the gospel, there is a modifying effect intended in her.

A.J.G. I was wondering whether you mean her being here in faithfulness to Christ in the presence of the increasing apostasy has a modifying effect in that it delays the judgment and maintains a testimony of grace in spite of the apostasy.

J.T. I think that would be borne out by the facts scripture affords as to women characteristically. When Nehemiah approached the king for certain things at Jerusalem it is a remarkable thing he mentions his own brethren first, one of the brethren told him about the state of Jerusalem, and then we have the first mention of the queen. She does not do or say anything, but is there, as if there is a modifying power or influence there. That is important in preaching or whatever else may go in relation to the service of God, even the care meetings. I believe the brethren would do well to tell the sisters what happens, because there is always a modifying effect.

Rem. In writing the first epistle to Corinthians the apostle connects a brother with him, and addresses the saints as brethren alluding to what had been shown him by the house of Chloe.

J.T. A very important matter that. Her house comes into it. We have mentioned others already who might be mentioned here too, showing the modifying influence of the sisters. How often it happens that brothers have a hard judgment about matters, and when they come home and talk about things with the sisters there is a modifying influence for good. So here you see David refers to the same thing, "Blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou, who hast kept me this day from coming with bloodshed, and from avenging myself with mine own hand". She, as it were, saved the position.

Rem. You mean, she prevented David from going too far?

J.T. How often that happens.

Ques. Do you get the very opposite with Herodias in connection with John the baptist?

J.T. The king was minded to save John Baptist, but Herodias would have it otherwise.

P.H.H. Abigail comes in with some food, prepared food. Would that too bear on this?

J.T. It is really designed for the purpose we are speaking here today, that we might understand the assembly and its influence for good.

Ques. How do the sisters who are not wives come into it?

J.T. They can ask. Why not? "Ask their husbands at home", is said to the wives, but then the daughters can do the same; if they are godly they will seek it, and make it a matter of prayer.

P.H-d. One of the young men brings the matter to Abigail. What do we learn from that?

J.T. The attention of the assembly is called to

certain events. That is what he represents, I think. You can see he is an alert young man and says to his mistress, "Behold, David sent messengers out of the wilderness to bless our master; and he has insulted them", verse 14. That is the assembly being made aware of the facts, and she takes it on, and the result is as we were reading.

J.R.S. Is there anything in the fact that God takes the matter in His own hand in regard of Nabal?

J.T. That is another matter. David regards that too. "Blessed be Jehovah, who has pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal", verse 39. Abigail had nothing to do with that, God did it.

Eu.R. Is not that the way God comes in and does things when the information about things is placed in a right assembly setting?

J.T. The brethren take occasion to look into it, and take advice. The care meeting is not an administrative or authoritative body, it is counsel. The brethren have had recourse to care meetings through the past twenty five years or so, more than they used to, and I think God has blessed the care meeting.

FOOD PROVIDED BY THE LORD

John 21:1 - 19

I have read this chapter because it refers to food, and because of other things, too, but especially because of the food question, and because of the three manifestations of the Lord spoken of in the chapter, verse 14. The first manifestation alluded to is in chapter 20, beginning at verse 19: the second is in the same chapter, beginning with verse 26, and the third is in this chapter. These manifestations are in mind in the chapter being read, because the chapter really deals with the last days, and implies that the Lord intends to show Himself in a very real way to His people in the last days. The word 'manifestation' or 'manifest' would imply that. It is not simply an ordinary coming to us, as in John 14, but it is a wider thought, and the idea of three makes the more impression. We have the idea of three in a certain sense similar to this in the first chapter: this is in the 21st chapter, but the first chapter gives the idea of three in regard of days, really in regard of the Lord's gathering. The numeral there runs on to the second chapter, referring to the millennial period. We have to be simple, and, in order to get the true bearing of the numeral as applied to days, we have to begin with the last, that is, chapter 2, and read backwards; but we get the numeral in that way, and how it begins, and how the Spirit of God calls attention to the peculiar gatherings of the Lord at the beginning. We will all remember how the disciples of John left John and followed Jesus, and so the gathering began. The greatest born of women was there, and he had disciples, and two of them left John and followed Jesus, and so the gathering began. There is no one here on earth like John now for the saints to gather to. There are those who draw to

themselves, and make disciples for themselves; but the centre of gathering is now the Lord. So the gathering began, and the days ran on to the reference in the second chapter. The same principle applies in this chapter, chapter 21; that is, we really need to begin with the third manifestation, and read backwards, so as to get a clear view of what the Lord had in His mind as He talked with the disciples, and hence what He has in His mind now. It is a time of manifestation, not so much a time of gathering, although there is gathering, thank God. Most of us here doubtless are among the gathered -- a very precious fact, a victorious fact, too, that there should be so many in this city or near it, who are gathered among the children of God.

But, as I said, we should begin with the third manifestation, the one I read of, and then revert back to the verses I alluded to in chapter 20, into which certain persons come who are distinctive, and who are to be kept in our minds. I do not intend to pursue the subject of the 20th chapter, although it is one of the most precious in scripture, and especially because of the Lord's appearing to Mary Magdalene, and calling her "Woman", and then calling her "Mary", and then regulating her as to Him, that she was not to touch Him, because He had not yet ascended to heaven. So that we can see that we are now in the time in which ascending to heaven applies. In truth it is a time of going to heaven: it is as if the time had come, the days of going to heaven. We read in Luke of the days of the Lord's receiving up to heaven. Already the days had come, Luke 9:51.

And so it is now: the days of ascending to heaven have come; not simply of the Lord Himself, but of our ascending: the days have come, and what days, dear brethren! What opportunities of learning how to go to heaven! You may say, 'If we die, we shall go there';

but the point is that the time has come for going to heaven. The heavenly side of things has come, and is being stressed, and the Spirit of God is telling us that the Lord Jesus is about to descend from heaven with an assembling shout. What a day is suggested in that! And the preceding days, as I was saying, may be rightly termed the days of going to heaven.

Well now, I have said all that in the way of preface, and I do not intend to enlarge on chapter 20, but certainly what I have said should be taken note of. Probably some of us have thought as I have said, but I would suggest that the brethren should begin, if they have not already done so, with the idea of going to heaven. The Lord said to the thief on the cross: "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". That applies to many even now. That man had not received the Spirit: Christ had not died: He had not gone to heaven: the Spirit had not come; and yet the Lord said to him, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". The man did not seem to have any doubt about it. There are many who have fallen asleep this very day and have gone to be with Jesus. Do not think I am fanciful or stressing the thing unduly: I am speaking of what is actually true: there are many who have fallen asleep today, and have gone to be with Jesus, gone to be with Him. He said to the man, the thief, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"; and Paul had an addition to that: "To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better", Philippians 1:23. The thief did not say that, but the language of Christianity is that: "To depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" -- better even than the very best thing here; and Paul had learned to say that, and has taught us to say it too. How often we do say it, and say it victoriously, at the grave's mouth; and we can continue to say it, until the Lord is pleased to take us to Himself.

But I am now speaking of going to heaven in the principle of it, of learning not only to go to heaven, but learning the Jordan, to cross the Jordan; for the word is very rightly stressed in the prophets: "How wilt thou then do in the swelling of the Jordan?" Jeremiah 12:5. It is a matter, dear brethren, for everyone of us to think of, and especially the older ones; for we are to be taught to number our days that we may acquire a wise heart, Psalm 90:12. So when the swelling of Jordan is touched, we are victorious: we are not afraid. It is the learning time in that sense. All that we get as to the passage of the Jordan is to instruct us as to this very matter: how we are to go through, and how we are to be victorious in going through. It is a question of testimony, dear brethren, of how we die. We do not say, "man goeth to his long home", Ecclesiastes 12:5: we say we go to heaven when the Lord comes; but rather now we go to be with Jesus. I do not know that we should be too free in designating the place we are going to, but rather the Person we are going to. We are going to be with Jesus. It is a real matter, and a real testimony to the truth.

Well now, I have touched on the manifestations, and I wish to speak about this third one, and to show that it involves food. Great importance is attached to food at the present time: it is so physically. I need not say that the food question is one of the most urgent; but now I must not be speaking of that: it is a question of food in a spiritual sense, and this third manifestation is in relation to food, but it is also in relation to seven disciples who were going astray. I say they were going: one says, "I go a fishing". He did not imply that he was going astray, but we can see that he was, for had not the Lord come in, who can say what would have happened? "I go", he says, with determination: "I go a fishing", and the others say, "We also go with thee". There were six of them

besides himself. It is a straying path, but the Shepherd is near by, and with a supply of food ready cooked -- as you might say, a hot meal. It is to illustrate the grace of Jesus in the last days. How ready He is to intervene if there is any straying, or any resolve to stray, or to do one's own will, in defiance of the will of God. 'I go a fishing'. The Lord was near by, but what was He doing? May we not say that He was cooking the dinner? Where did He get the fish? We need not go far to find out, for He could prove how He could find fish. He controls the oceans and the lakes and the rivers. So that when the time of paying taxes comes we can turn to the Lord as to that, too. The Lord can direct one fish with the taxes that may be needed. I am speaking now of very simple matters, but very practical matters, as to the place that the Lord is to have; for in all these things that we call physical and commonplace, the Lord is not too great nor too far above to come down to them; and we are in them. So the Lord enquired of Peter as to who paid taxes among the Gentiles. It looks to me as if the brethren ought not to be narrow in their education in these matters. What we have all gone through in recent times has involved that the earth has become relatively smaller -- not that it is literally so, but it has become better known, and the things in it are better known; and these things are not to be used to add to ourselves, but we are to understand that the Lord is about to come out and put His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the land, and cry like a lion roars. He is about to do that. The fact is that He may have done it in some sense in the way of testimony; but at any rate He has the right to do it, and He is about to do it, to put His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the land. We may wonder why the sea is first. I suppose it involves most. The Lord puts His foot on it first

He claims it first. All that is in the sea belongs to Him; and so if it becomes a question of taxes, or any claim on us, any righteous claim or unrighteous claim, we can turn to the Lord. He anticipated Peter, as you remember, in that memorable chapter, the 17th of Matthew. Someone in Capernaum had asked Peter, "Doth not your master pay tribute?" verse 24. Peter said, "Yes". Well, he did not know what he was saying, which is often the case with us, and we should not be ignorant about these matters, even these matters that are physical, because they concern us and they concern the Lord too. So the Lord waited till Peter came into the house before He raised the question with him; as Aquila and Priscilla were wise, before they raised a question in Apollos' mind as to things he said which were not just right, they took him to them, they did not make a public show of him; nor did the Lord with Peter, but waited till he came into the house. Hence our Bible readings are occasions when the Lord instructs us as to things that we do not know. There is no reason why we should be ignorant even of any of these material things; they concern us and they concern the Lord. So the Lord says, "Of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?" "Of strangers", says Peter at once: he knew that answer. And then the Lord says to him, "Go thou to the sea, and cast a hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up: and when thou hast opened his mouth thou shalt find a piece of money" -- you will find in it enough to pay what is due according to what you have heard. Peter had heard of the Lord possibly needing to pay taxes, and the Lord liquidates all that matter at once: there was just enough to liquidate the matter.

So the Lord had food ready: "a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread". The Lord says,

"Come and dine". I am saying that because it is in accord with what I have said about going to heaven. I am not referring to these material things to drag us down to earth. There is plenty to do that: the rations will do that: they force us to think about what is current. I am speaking now as using the word which John records, the beloved one, the apostle: "Come and dine"; for that fish, those coals, that bread, was all there ready hot for them, and yet they were straying disciples! It is most touching! There may be some here straying, or thinking about it -- thinking about going into the world, or marrying or joining in a partnership there, or something like that. All these things are current, and they mean turning away from the truth. These seven brothers -- seven apostles (at least five of them were apostles, as far as I can see: probably all were apostles) were about to stray, and they did stray. They went off to fish, following a leader in the wrong direction, going back to his old trade when he should have been following his Lord and Master. So the dinner is all ready. It is very beautiful: the Lord of glory had made it ready. He is not reproving them, though they appear worthy of it. The Lord knows how to deal with souls. They were not far away: there are grades of sinning; and those seven disciples had just taken one step in the wrong direction, just as those of Emmaus had taken one step in the wrong direction, and the Lord followed them up, and brought them back. Here they came back, and so there they came back. It is the Lord's way. So the Lord is saying now: if there is any tendency with any of you to stray, or if we have strayed the Lord is saying, 'I do not want to be severe with you'. I want you to understand from this wonderful chapter, an appendix to the gospel of John, that He is easy with us, He is tender with us even if we are only about to make a step astray, so as

to intercept us so that we may not make it, so that we may stay in the way. He says, "Come and dine" -- not a reproof. There was a good opportunity for reproof, but the Lord knew better; instead of a reproof it is a dinner -- not simply something to eat, but something dignified. The whole matter was in His hand, and rightly there, and He tenders the invitation to dine. It is a dignified word. But it is a meal, too; it is food to eat; but how tender the Lord is, dear brethren, at such a time; and it is a time of straying with many, alas! Many have turned aside, and the word comes, as the Lord says, "Will ye also go away?" The answer was by this same Peter, "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast words of life eternal; and we have believed and known that thou art the holy one of God", John 6:67 - 69. What triumph there is, as in Matthew 16, when he was able to say the right word as to who the Son of man is.

Well now, this dinner is what I intended to come to, and what I hope will be used of the Lord to help us as to the tenderness of His solicitude for us for our recovery if we have gone astray, or are about to, or if we are thinking of going astray. How tender He is! As one said, how he longed for the "unrebuking gaze" of the Lord Jesus. Even although there may be cause for it, He knows when the rebuke may be left out, and causes the gaze to be an unrebuking one. And so here: the way of the Lord was perfect: "Come and dine", He says.

Well, I could have said considerably more about the passage, but time fails, I now want to refer to some verses lower down. The Lord had asked them to dine in verse 12, and He had said to them in verse 10, "Bring of the fish which ye have now caught". That is, He would say, 'I want you to be mutual. I want you to understand that I am mutual, and that I can act mutually with you, and that I

can help you to do things; but I want you to do them'. That is the principle, and Matthew especially is worked out on that principle. The Lord says there, "I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", chapter 28: 20, meaning, 'I am ready to work with you on mutual lines, but I want you to do things -- not wait on me always, or on the brethren'. The Lord is ready to help us: "I am with you", He says, not 'you with me', but "I am with you alway". So in this beautiful way He says now, 'I have got everything ready, but I want you to have part with me in that which you have contributed'. So in verse 10 He says, "Bring of the fish which ye have now caught. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three; and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken". Now this is another point that I must touch on, that is the non-breaking of the net; just as we have it in Acts 10 that the sheet was knit at the four corners, meaning that it was secured: there was no possibility of breaking. It was let down once, and twice and thrice, and drawn up into heaven again. The sheet was not broken, and so here: the net was not broken. What I would suggest, dear brethren, is that we have come to the time of the real system of Christianity coming to light and being proved. It is being proved: many of us are proving it every week and every day. Christianity is a real, abiding matter, an immutable thing; it is all going up to heaven. The sheet comes down three times and goes up three times, and goes up for ever. It is the power that is in the system that we may rely on. So the net was not broken here, and we arc told how many fishes there were.

We only have one fish in Matthew 17it did the work; it was all that was needed. We do not need any more. "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof", Matthew 6:34; also, "Give us our needed bread for

each day", Luke 11:3 -- is the principle of heaven -- living by the day. I am not seeking to put anyone in bondage, but only to show what a system we have come into, and how real it is, and how this number of fishes is symbolic of what there is in the last days: there are great persons coming into fellowship, persons not yet caught, so to speak, not yet convicted or converted, but they are there, and the Lord knows where they are. "Cast the net", He says, "on the right side". That is where they are. It is a question therefore if we want to be in the system, and we should: every person coming into the system and into the blessing should be joining in doing things, like the woman of Samaria who left her water pot and went to the city and did something. She went to the men, and there was a result for the Lord. So here, the idea is that the system is unbreakable: there is no other system in the world like it. The system of Christianity is unbreakable because the Spirit of God is here, here to stay. He goes up with the assembly: He does not take the assembly up, you understand: the Lord does that, but the Spirit is here to stay with us. The Lord said that He would be with us always: He said of the Spirit, "He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you", and "... that he may abide with you for ever", John 14:17 and 16. But as regards the coming down from heaven and the administration in heaven, it is all a matter which is in the Lord's hands.

If I had more time I should like to say more about the matter of the unbreakableness of the sheet and of the net, meaning that it is the unbreakableness of the system into which we have come, in which the Spirit is, throughout the dispensation, from the moment He came down at Pentecost till now. He is actively in it, and the system is unbreakable. So we may be sure, dear brethren that all is well.

But then I come to the matter of Peter and food. I was speaking of the food question, and now Peter is to be active in the food matter, and so the Lord says: 'Before you touch the food matter, I want to touch the love matter'. That is what comes out now, this love matter; and the word comes to me: "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. Those in fellowship, those who are genuinely in fellowship, are to be marked by love among ourselves. And so the question of the food and the sheep comes into the Lord's mind. Of course, they were always in His mind, but I speak of the order in which things are stated. The Lord says to Peter: "Lovest thou me more than these?" "These" would be, I suppose, all the apostles. The Lord would have some persons in His mind when He said that; but anyway, there was enough in His mind to challenge Peter as to whether he had more love for Christ than the others. And so I would say, dear brethren, as to the matter of administration, it is a very urgent matter -- the question of love must come up first. Who is worthy of being entrusted by the Lord with administration, and especially with His own lambs and His own sheep, meaning His own young believers and His own old believers: who is to be entrusted with them? This is a most serious matter. Of course we have our care-meetings, and we can thank God for them, because the Lord is with us in them. It is a question of caring for the saints. The word is in the letters of Paul to Timothy, caring for the assembly, 1 Timothy 3:5. That is the word that governs the care-meeting. It is a question of care, rightly used, and who is worthy to have to do with the matter. Well, "Lovest thou me more than these?" I would say that is a challenge to every brother who attends the care-meetings, because I believe the Lord is with us in this particular matter

of the care-meetings, which has come up of recent years rather than the thought of eldership. The word "elder" is not used in 1st or 2nd Corinthians, but the idea of care has, I believe, come in to substitute the thought of eldership -- although the latter is not, of course, given up at all -- far otherwise; but there are very few elders, very few fathers. Hence the young men have to be called on and have to be relied on, to come to the care-meetings, and that should be done. So the question comes up, "Lovest thou me more than these?" That is, the Lord would say, 'If you call them care-meetings, I admit it, I endorse it, but I want you to understand that it means that love must precede the idea of care; that it is persons who love who can be relied on to care'. So the Lord says, "Lovest thou me more than these", and it is three times repeated until Peter is distressed. It would be a wholesome matter if we were all to challenge ourselves on the eve of our care-meetings as to this matter of love -- loving the saints whether we are true Merarites -- because the Merarites were to look after the boards, meaning the saints: the saints are to be viewed as Merarites as caring for one another in our care-meetings.

So the question is of love, dear brethren, and then of food, and that brings up all of us who are ministering. I thank God for the many brothers who are coming forward now to minister to the saints in addresses and readings: God is with them and with us, because now it is not only a question of instruction, but of food -- it is the food question; and first the Lord says, "Feed my lambs" -- 'If you say you love Me, then feed My lambs'. They are the young saints, the young brothers and sisters, even the young children. The Lord Himself, dear brethren, took the infants into His arms and blessed them: it is most touching! John does not tell us that, Mark says it:

"And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them", chapter 10: 16. What did He do that for? Surely to help them, to impress them, to teach them love from the very outset, so that in due course they should come into the assembly. Anyone who is a Christian and who is not characteristically in the assembly is doing something wrong, he is not abiding in the truth, he is not keeping the commandments of the Lord. "If ye love me keep my commandments", John 14:15, and the Lord intends the infants as they grow up, the boys and girls, the young men and the young women to be in the assembly. That is the only thing the Lord has in mind -- not only that they might be saved from eternal punishment, but be in the assembly now, having part in the service of God.

So it is a question of food. Peter is pre-eminently to be entrusted with the food question, but it is on the basis of love. So the Lord says, "Feed my lambs", "Shepherd my sheep", then thirdly, "Feed my sheep". Someone may say, 'Why not shepherd the lambs?' The sheep are the ones who need shepherding -- the old people. That is where error comes in; that is where schisms are created; the elder brethren getting disciples to follow after them and creating schisms among Christians. But the Lord says, "Shepherd my sheep". The onus is on each of us here to shepherd the old brothers, the old sisters -- all of us, of course; but the Lord says to Peter, "Shepherd my sheep". So Peter is well filled with employment, and what an employment! He had already been entrusted with the keys of the kingdom, as you will remember: He was designated as material for the assembly; but he also has the keys, not of the assembly, but of the kingdom of heaven. Peter is entrusted with these, and we see him opening the door to Cornelius in Acts 10. But I am speaking now of the charge of feeding: "Feed

my lambs", "Shepherd my sheep", "Feed my sheep"; and then to die afterwards, because that is the point. That is the principle of Christianity that if we are worthy of all these, worthy of favour, worthy of honours, worthy of distinctions, worthy of blessings, then we are worthy to die -- not only that we are to suffer death, but we are worthy of it. The Lord grants it to us. He granted it to Peter. It was no accident that Peter suffered martyrdom: it was no question of Caesar doing it; it was a question of the Lord. He granted to Peter this great honour of being a martyr. That is open to us now. So the Lord says to Peter here, "When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not". Now another should do it. It is a question of the Lord granting the favour of martyrdom to the brother or brothers who are so honoured as indicated here. May God bless the word to all of us!

THE GOSPEL OF HEAVEN

Hebrews 4:1 - 16; Numbers 13:26 - 27

J.T. It is hoped that we shall see as we proceed that this chapter contemplates the gospel, but properly the gospel of heaven, alluding to the passage in Numbers where we have recorded the spying out of the land of Canaan by those whom Moses sent out, alluding to, not what we might call the gospel of our salvation, but the gospel of the land. The gospel of our salvation touches more on deliverance from Egypt, but this gospel we are alluding to refers to the land. Then it is thought we also might see in connection with this the word of God and the danger of not hearkening to it, and thus not entering into the rest of God; and then the priesthood of Christ, which is evidently added in Hebrews 4 to support us as in the light of this gospel, so that we may not draw back or become hardened: as it is said in the 3rd chapter: "Today if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness; where your fathers tempted me, by proving me, and saw my works forty years", verses 7 - 9. So that it is hoped that we will reach these points to our profit, first to see that the land is in question in reference to the gospel here: chapter 4: 2.

J.A.P. Would that be in correspondence with John 3:16 -- "May not perish but have life eternal"?

J.T. Well, in so far as eternal life leads us into heaven in the thought of it, but I would say the land goes further as a type. It includes our heavenly position, that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies, and that God has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies, Ephesians 2:6 and Ephesians 1:3. "Every spiritual blessing" goes further than eternal life.

H.E.F. Would you say in what way it goes beyond the thought of eternal life?

J.T. I would rather say eternal life does not go as far as the heavenly calling. Ephesians contemplates the heavenly calling. Romans (and of course John's gospel, but particularly Romans in the Pauline epistles), treats of eternal life as secured through the gospel, but the heavenly calling is contemplated in Ephesians: we are "blessed ... with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ" -- "every spiritual blessing".

Rem. Eternal life has an earthly setting, has it not?

J.T. Well, you would have to be careful in limiting it to earth. The Lord in John 3, when He touches the heavenly side of the subject, says, "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you ...". I think that is in mind. I think eternal life is involved in that. What do you say?

Rem. Yes, quite so; I was only thinking that, in the setting of it, it was enjoyed on earth.

J.T. Well, I would like to keep it nearer to heaven than that as a subject, as a great fact, indeed. I mean, the Lord's own words alluded to in John 3 would help in that direction. It is said in verse 12: "If I have said the earthly things to you, and ye believe not, how, if I say the heavenly things to you, will ye believe? And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven"; and then He goes on to the doctrine of eternal life, saying, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up, that every one who believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish,

but have life eternal", verses 12 - 16. It seems to me that the Lord's words there should be weighed as to our subject, as to the bearing of eternal life, and how near it touches heavenly things, because there is clearly a link with heavenly things in the subject of eternal life.

M.G.W. What are the "glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ", Ephesians 3:8 -- does that link on with the gospel of the land you have referred to?

J.T. Yes, one would think so: "To me", says the apostle, "less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ"; and it goes on to the mystery: "and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God", and so forth, Ephesians 3:8 - 9. So that Ephesians clearly relates to the heavenly calling which the land answers to, and the gospel of the unsearchable riches is linked up with the mystery. I mean, we do not want to evade the greatest things if we can rightly or legitimately touch them, and yet have understanding as to how the truth reaches down to earth; just as the expanse in Genesis 1, the expanse which is specifically called "heavens", evidently reaches down to earth, because it includes the atmospheric heavens. So the link is there between the heaven and the earth, and God says, "The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool", Isaiah 66:1, linking them together. Clearly the thought of eternal life is in relation to the millennium, as it says, "The righteous (shall go away) into life eternal", Matthew 25:46. Clearly that is on the earth, but then we should be careful as to linking it up with the heavenly, the whole scheme of truth, because the Spirit is here to guide us into all the truth, and that includes eternal life.

W.B.H. Could heaven be spoken of as the home of eternal life?

J.T. I should not say that. Eternal life is presented as in Christ as to position. At the present moment it is realised in the assembly, because the Spirit is here; but in the future it will be on a lower level; it will be enjoyed on the earth in relation to Israel and the nations; and in view of that we have the names of the tribes of Israel in the gates of the city.

Ques. In what sense do we have to enter into our rest, or His rest?

J.T. Well, now we come down to our chapter. I wonder whether we have got as far as that word as to eternal life. Have we got that matter settled?

Rem. I was wondering, if we were in the gain of eternal life, whether we should have entered into rest -- into the gain of it?

J.T. I should not say that, because it is what Joshua gives in the type. Here in Hebrews 4, we have: "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you might seem to have failed of it. For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also; but the word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard. For we enter into the rest who have believed", verses 1 - 3. Now to speak of that and in any way to limit it to eternal life would be a mistake because we have the greatest thoughts involved: it is the whole scope of the land really, and the gospel of the glory included.

Ques. Does it include what God has found His rest in?

J.T. Just so, that is what it says here.

J.I.W. Would the gospel presented to us in verse 2 of Hebrews 4 include the epistles to the Colossians and Ephesians?

J.T. Well, I would say that, Colossians being the lesser of the two, Ephesians being the full thought of the calling, the calling of God. Colossians is on lower ground really, because I would say that the word that would cover it most accurately is "entering", not "having entered", but "entering". It is a period or a territory on which we enter first as crossing the Jordan: there it is that we touch the old corn of the land, but there it is, too, that the circumcision is applied. I think that the word "entering" would be more accurate than to say we have entered, whereas Ephesians contemplates that we have entered: we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in Ephesians; whereas Colossians is on lower ground, that we are "risen with Christ": it does not go further than that. It has heaven in view, but it is, "raised with him (Christ) through faith of the working of God who raised him", Colossians 2:12. So that what we are saying now is of the greatest importance to us in our subject as to the land and as to entrance, and then the full thought of having entered.

Ques. I was going to ask whether there was not in both Colossians and Hebrews a danger of falling short of the great heavenly calling?

J.T. That was the danger at Colosse: they were in danger of being turned aside by philosophy and vain deceit. But I would not connect eternal life as a subject either with Colossians or Ephesians, but rather with Romans. It stands in relation to the gospel, the gospel of our salvation, which Romans opens up to us.

F.C.H. The gospel of the land is included in Exodus 6, is it not? and also in Exodus 15? Exodus 6:6 - 8, reads: "Therefore say unto the children of Israel, I am Jehovah, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will

deliver you from their service, and I will redeem you with a stretched-out arm, and with great judgments. And I will take you to me for a people, and will be your God; and ye shall know that I, Jehovah your God, am he who bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you into the land concerning which I swore to give it unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; and I will give it you for a possession: I am Jehovah"; and Exodus 15:17: "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, the Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared".

J.T. That is the passage I was thinking you were going to stress, being brought in and planted in the mountain of His inheritance, the Sanctuary being established, taking us as far as David really. It is prophetic in that sense. But we ought to be ready for prophecy, and especially as to Ephesians, to get the idea of anticipation, of the truth anticipated, because it is said that we are, not that we should be or shall be, but that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

F.C.H. Do you distinguish between the thoughts of being brought in and entering?

J.T. Well, I should say entering is a subjective thought, and is really more in line with Colossians where we need circumcision. They are already across the Jordan, but that was only initial. Jericho had not been taken; therefore I would say that entering is a matter on our side of the truth -- how we enter in: the being brought in is God's side. So it was at the beginning in Egypt: God says, "I have borne you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself" -- Exodus 19:4; that is God's side; but they had to cross the Red Sea, which they did. We need to keep the two things together to help us: that is,

God's side of purpose and power, and our side through the Spirit and the exercises that accompany the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Would you tell us a little about the rest into which we are to enter?

G.H.W. Does the word of Moses in Deuteronomy correspond a little with the scripture in Hebrews? It was the desire of Moses in relation to the people of God to enter into the land and enjoy the possession; it speaks of the days of heaven upon earth.

J.T. Just so: Deuteronomy is full of it. Deuteronomy is an unfolding of Moses. It was not what Moses was told to say, but what he said -- a man appreciating the land, not himself entering in, but having an apprehension of it, so that understanding Moses in that sense brings us into touch with one thoroughly in the thing, yet not entering himself because he is under the government of God. He is kept out of it, but he knows it, and was led up to the top of Pisgah to see it, God showing it to him, and not the end nor the beginning, but He showed him the whole land. That is what we should have in mind now, the whole land, because the spies saw it all; they tell us what they saw.

J.A.P. May I ask one more question in relation to eternal life? I was thinking of the epistle of John where it says (1 John 5:20) "He is the true God and eternal life"; and it speaks of having the Son and having life (1 John 5:12) -- does not that go beyond Romans?

J.T. I suppose it would. It is John's line, of course, but it is not his gospel: it is his epistle, and the epistle really deals with eternal life: "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life; (and the life has been manifested, and we have seen and bear witness, and

report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us)". That is John's epistle, and the subject really is life; but to say that it is the full position of Ephesians, of course, would not do, because it was given to Paul to open up and complete the word of God, as he tells us. So we have the whole scope of divine counsel in his ministry. That is the point today, I believe, if the brethren are ready for it. The Lord is ready to bring us in, because He is going to take us in literally soon in power, but He is seeking to take us in now. Those who have believed do enter into rest, not literally, but in the power of the Spirit. Hence we are warned against having things without faith. The things we hold are to be "mixed with faith" -- a remarkable phrase.

Ques. Was the forty days (Acts 1:3) an experience of eternal life?

J.T. Somewhat, but not on their side, because they had not the Spirit yet. We need the Spirit for the enjoyment of eternal life, and they did not have it yet. The life was there: Christ risen was there in their midst, but full Christianity involves the Spirit: "The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified", John 7:39. He must be glorified before we get the Spirit.

W.S.S. Was it your thought that we should be set free to enter livingly at the present time into heavenly things and to distinguish the features of the land -- the hills and valleys and waterbrooks?

J.T. That is what I would say exactly, and this chapter is intended to help us because it contemplates that we have the light. He says, "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you might seem to have failed of it. For indeed we have had glad tidings presented to us, even as they also, but the word of the report

did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard". So that we have the light already: God has opened up the truth to us, especially in the last hundred years or so; but the question is whether it has been mixed with faith, and we have learnt to go in for the thing. For instance, as to eternal life it says, "Lay hold of eternal life", 1 Timothy 6:12. We are told to do it.

Ques. Does the appearance of the glory in Numbers 14:10 link on with the testimony of Joshua and Caleb regarding the land? I was thinking of the glory appearing as in support of the testimony of Joshua and Caleb, as if to give it a place amongst Israel.

J.T. I would say that, the glory being there. Quite so. It would be a link with Ephesians, what has just been remarked. We have had glad tidings presented to us: the question is whether the truth has been mixed with faith. Of course, we have it in our bookcases, but then faith is not there: it is a question of our souls. "The word of the report did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard".

A.M. The Lord does not mention faith or believing in John 3, until He raises the question as to heavenly things: is that not important? Faith is emphasised from that point onwards in the chapter -- see verse 12.

J.T. That is good. Hence the importance of faith which we find more stressed in John, perhaps, than in any of the gospels. Then we have the long chapter in Hebrews dealing with faith, in which we are told that without faith it is impossible to please God, chapter 11: 6.

C.O.B. Could we link with this thought of entering into the land, the bringing many sons to glory in chapter 2?

J.T. Well, I would say so. "Bringing many sons to glory": it is in agreement with what has already been spoken of: I mean from Exodus 15. Bringing many sons to glory would agree with the suggestion of being brought in, and being planted in the mountain of His inheritance, in the Sanctuary which His hands have established. That is what God has brought into Hebrews to encourage the Hebrew Christians, to divert from apostasy and to salvage whatever possible from the apostate tendencies of the people. That is what the epistle is written for.

Ques. Will you say a word about the rest of God?

J.T. Well, it is a beautiful expression, God entering into His rest. We have to go back to Genesis 2, for it: it is beautifully linked up with Exodus 31:17: "On the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed", showing what is before us -- the blessedness of the rest of God. It has been pointed out that the idea of the sabbath with Israel would probably include about a quarter or more of their time, if the sabbaths were kept according to the instructions, showing how important the thing is in the mind of God; and it begins with Genesis 2. God rested and was refreshed, we are told in Exodus. So here, what is in mind is the rest of God. "For we enter into the rest who have believed; as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, If they shall enter into my rest; although the works had been completed from the foundation of the world. For he has said somewhere of the seventh day thus, And God rested on the seventh day from all his works: and in this again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remains that some enter into it, and those who first received the glad tidings did not enter in on account of not hearkening to the word ..." that is the point: the refusal to hearken to the word, and hence deny ourselves the greatest blessing.

P.J.B. Who is the "he" in verse 10?

J.T. It is abstract, I should say: whoever it may be -- anyone who has entered: "He also has rested from his works, as God did from his own". It is a question of who enters, and evidently there were very few entering then.

R.S.C. Would that correspond with "his works" in verse 10?

J.T. Well, that would be ourselves: the time of labour is over. God is encouraging us in that way to enter into things. The Lord promises to Philadelphia that we should go no more out.

W.S.S. Is it a practical question for us at the present time as to how far we have entered into rest in order that we might go on to the apprehension of heavenly things?

J.T. Well, that is the object of this reading: it is a question of whether we are open to be convicted of unbelief, or whether we have the holy mixture of faith with the idea of the promises.

Ques. Would you mind saying a word as to the close connection between faith and hearkening? It comes into chapter 3, and right through this one.

J.T. It is a remarkable thing that faith comes by hearing, by the word of God: "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God", Romans 10:17. That is what we are to hear. It is a question of faith and the word of God.

Rem. The danger comes about through not hearkening to the word of God.

J.T. That is right; and of course, "not hearkening to the word" (of God) -- where that is, there is no question of faith at all. So the two things are very closely allied. That is, faith is by a report, but the report by God's word. That is how it is presented in Romans. So that the whole matter here is to challenge us as to whether we have faith or not, because we

have had the things presented to us: there is plenty of truth: where is the faith?

P.J.B. Do you say that this chapter is preparatory to entering into the full blessings of Christianity?

J.T. So it is; the full blessing, which is far more than Christianity. Christianity refers to something down here, worked out down here by the Spirit, but the heavenly calling is what we are aiming at.

M.G.W. Does this matter of entering into rest coincide with our conscious enjoyment of sitting down in heavenly places?

J.T. That is what I should say, because we touch on God's rest. He has nothing less than that, and it is involved in what the Lord says to the disciples: "In my Father's house are many mansions: I go to prepare a place for you" -- that is, the saints of this dispensation -- "and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself", John 14:2 - 3. That will take place when the Lord comes; but what we see here is the light involved in that, laid hold of now in the power of the Spirit: that is the faith mixture. Do we understand that commodity?

M.G.W. I would like to ask whether the glad tidings are that God has made us to sit down in heavenly places, or that He will bring us there?

J.T. Well Ephesians contemplates that He has already done it: it is a feature of Ephesians. It is already done, because that is a question of the power of God. So in Colossians we are raised by faith of the working of God, but that is not heavenly places. There is the idea first of understanding that we are raised with Christ; that is in Colossians; but in Ephesians it is that we are made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus. That is a question of anticipation; we are safe in doing it for the Spirit of God does it because of the power of God -- what God has promised He will do.

A.J.T. Do the walls of Jericho stand between Colossians and Ephesians?

J.T. I would say that, although the Colossian position is more the territory, as already remarked, covered by the word "entering". I think Jericho goes a little beyond that: it is the overthrow of the world. The idea of entering is one thing, and the overthrow of the world in our souls is another matter. That is what Jericho means. So Samson may be taken to represent the Colossian truth when his hair began to grow. He lost power when it was shaved, but when his hair began to grow that was a token that he recovered life, and then there was the overthrow of the Philistine house when 3,000 were slain. That was the overthrow of the world. Samson accomplished more in his death than in his life, and we have to do that, perhaps just now. It is a time of coming to the end and bringing down the world. That is the idea of the overthrow of the world, whether it be Jericho or the Philistine house. So Samson said to the lad who led him "Let loose of me", meaning he wanted to be wholly free to exercise the power of God. As long as we are held, even by a lad, on the world's side, we will be hindered. It is by being delivered and set free from any hindering power that the matter of the overthrow of the world is entered upon, because the world has to be overthrown in our souls; we need not expect it to be overthrown otherwise. It is a question of what has taken place in our souls. That is what we get in Colossians.

Ques. Does Acts 19:19 exemplify what you are speaking of, where they confessed and burnt their books?

J.T. Quite so: that is the overthrow of the world; that is the world of books -- literature -- not the world in a military idea, but the world of literature, which is a great matter, because most young people are

damaged by literature and do not go on with the truth because of it. It is not a question of military opposition, but of books.

Ques. You were speaking of Samson overthrowing the power of the Philistines by life operating in him: does not entering into rest involve life operating in the believer as well as faith?

J.T. Quite so; that is, the growth of his hair would mean that life was recovered in him.

Rem. I was seeking to get help as to the connection between faith and life in the believer.

J.T. There is a very strong connection here in what we are dealing with. It is a question of mixing with faith what you have learnt when you were converted. When God spoke to your soul you had faith or you would not get anything. Without faith you would not get anything. So the point is as you get faith and get light enough for salvation, whether you go on in that faith and get the light of the land and entering on it, and then it is life and power in your soul -- potential life -- and that is the point in Colossians.

Ques. "The just shall live by his faith", Habakkuk 2:4 -- is that life in connection with the land and the heavenly blessings you have been speaking of?

J.T. Just so, living by faith: that is from Habakkuk. It is one of the passages that affords the idea of faith to us. It is a question of living, not entering into the land, but living. We are now dealing with the question of entering the rest of God which is within our reach as having the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Does that connect with "he also who eats me shall live also on account of me", John 6:57? One has in mind a touching word from dear Mr. Coates just recently -- that it is a fine way of coming into eternal life to eat your way into it.

J.T. Quite so: that is living by Christ, eating the bread of God that came down from heaven.

E.B.I. Is that why in John 3 and John 10 the gospel of eternal life is linked with not perishing? Is it that we have to be free in regard to that before we can enter into the full heavenly portion in John 20?

J.T. You are talking now of John 10, linking it on with chapter 20?

E.B.I. In John 10:28 it says, "I give them life eternal: and they shall never perish, and no one shall seize them out of my hand" -- that is heavenly, is it not? And in both cases -- chapter 3 and chapter 10 -- eternal life is presented as if to preserve them from perishing -- something like what we have in Hebrews 4, not entering into rest.

J.T. Well, just so, only that John is divided as to this point into two sections; chapter 10 is in the first, chapter 20 is in the second, and the second begins properly with the 13th where the Lord has in mind that we should have part with Him, and then chapter 14, and then chapter 15, and then chapter 16, and then chapter 17, where He lifts up His eyes to heaven and says, "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee". Now in chapter 9, the blind man had come to the knowledge of Christ as the Son of God: "Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? And Jesus said to him, Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he. And he said, I believe, Lord: and he did him homage", verses 35 - 38. He is the characteristic man in that section, and it runs on to the end of chapter 12, involving the Jewish side of the position. Chapter 13 begins with the heavenly side, part with Christ, and it involves what we read in chapter 14, as to His coming to us, and also that in His Father's house are many mansions. So we are led into the heavenly side in that section, ending with the Lord's prayer in chapter 17. Then we have chapter 20, which is the climax of the

matter: chapter 21 is an appendix; but chapter 20 is more than a matter of eternal life: it is a question of the breath of Christ -- fitting us for the heavenly position as about to ascend into heaven. Eternal life is not the point there; it is the breath of Christ. He breathed into them the breath of life: He said, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

Rem. I was wondering whether that corresponded somewhat to the epistle to the Ephesians.

J.T. Quite so: John 20 corresponds with Ephesians, only it is not the collective side as in the assembly, but the persons who form it.

R.S.C. Could we have a word as to the bearing of the word of God?

J.T. I hope we have profited so far. The word of God, as we have had it already, is given to us in verse 11 of Hebrews 4, but the confirmation of the idea, the full idea, is that it is God Himself; the word of God is God Himself: "The word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and penetrating to the division of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is not a creature unapparent before him" -- that is, it runs into God Himself -- it really involves God Himself -- the word of God, which is a matter of great magnitude, entering into ministry and the like. Then it says, "But all things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do". Hence we are impressed with the magnitude of what is before us, that is, God Himself in His word, and the terribleness of refusing it, of having our heart hardened to refuse it. But then grace comes in in the 14th verse: "Having therefore a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast the confession. For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all

things in like manner, sin apart. Let us approach therefore with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and find grace for seasonable help". This is the beautiful grace side of the whole passage -- how the Lord is ready to support us -- if indeed we are subjects at all of the work of God -- to go on into the rest. God has not changed His mind about us at all: He never does. He is ready to do the best for us. So here it is a question of grace in the High Priest.

W.S.S. Would you connect the support you are speaking of with the apprehension of the truth of ascension?

J.T. I should indeed: it is a question of going in. The High Priest over the house of God who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, touches on what we are dealing with: He has passed through the heavens.

W.S.S. I was thinking of that; linking the thought of His having passed through the heavens with the ascension aspect of the truth. It connects with what you have been saying to us at earlier meetings.

J.T. Well, it is connected with ascension, and the thought of the Lord having passed through the heavens is remarkable: it is mentioned more than once in the Hebrews: see Hebrews 7:26.

S.B. Would the word of God in verse 12 go further than the word preached in verse 2?

J.T. Well, it is a question of the increase of power involved in the passage, how the word of God runs into it. It is spoken of first as the actual word as it affects our souls, but then it runs into God Himself. How constantly it is brought before us! God is speaking to us: He is near us in grace in these three verses.

Ques. Does that in any way connect with John 1l -- "In the beginning was the Word"?

J.T. Just so: "The Word was God". It shows how the Persons of the Father and the Son are linked together.

J.A.P. Would you attach this to the ministry? How far would you say it was the word of God?

J.T. It is a question of how it strikes you, because it is God in the minister. Any time that we have a meeting like this, it is a question of the word of God. If it is not the word of God, what is it worth? The word of God is through the ministers.

R.S.C. Is it the suggestion that we need to have things clarified and divided for us?

J.T. Well, quite so: the parting asunder as we find it in the types. Here it is, "For we have not a high priest not able to sympathise with our infirmities, but tempted in all things in like manner, sin apart". So that He is near to us, and ready to break things up for us in His grace, tenderly touching us, knowing full well what is needed in each of us, so that He might support us into the position that is in His mind, namely, the rest of God.

F.C.H. The Lord brought it in Himself, did He not, when He was tempted of the devil? I was thinking of His sympathies now; He brought in the word of God, and He is able to sympathise with us.

J.T. "Every word which goes out through God's mouth", Matthew 4:4.

C.O.B. What is the confession here which we have to hold fast?

J.T. I think it would be Christianity -- what was confessed in the baptism of the saints, what was involved in it. It really is Christianity. Holding fast the confession is a question of what is presented in Christ for our confession -- what we believe -- what is called "the truth". It is only so as to get the practical side that I am speaking thus, because when we believe on the Lord Jesus we are to confess Jesus Christ as

Lord, but the whole matter of Christianity is involved in "the confession" as over against Judaism.

C.O.B. In chapter 3, it speaks of the "Apostle and High Priest of our confession" -- is that what we are going on to?

J.T. Just so: it is what we are in, really, what we are going on with here in testimony: it is a confession -- what we say and do, what we acknowledge in relation to the Lord; carrying on the service of God is involved in it, too.

F.C.H. Is the confession our response to the calling?

J.T. Just so. Why should we not take it all in -- the confession involved in the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ, the ascension of Christ, the advent of the Spirit, and the whole truth? It is a question of the whole truth: that is involved in the confession.

J.I.W. What is the thought of having "passed through the heavens", verse 14?

J.T. He has gone outside of the creature realm, I would say, meaning He is God. Only a divine Person could go into that realm.

R.S.C. Why is it the throne, and no mention of any person on the throne?

J.T. You have that in Hebrews especially and in Colossians in relation to the Fulness: "In him all the fulness of the God head was pleased to dwell", Colossians 1:19. We are not told what the Fulness was: it is really a name, you might say.

P.J.B. We believe in the death of Christ and in the resurrection of Christ and in His ascension as having gone into heaven: but does it involve more than that -- the bearing of it upon our souls?

J.T. Well, it is confession, whatever may enter into the word: it is the confession of the truth of Christianity, involving divine Persons and the

work of Christ and the presence of the Holy Spirit here on earth as over against all other confessions, all other religions. This is Christianity and the Jewish believers were in danger of giving it up.

Ques. Do you think that the bringing of the fruit of the land is in measure the confession?

J.T. It was a testimony to the land -- what beautiful grapes the land grew: it was the subjective side.

"REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST, WHICH GOD GAVE TO HIM"

Revelation 1:9 - 20

J.T. It is hoped that consideration of this scripture may lead to a better understanding in all of us of the need of the book of Revelation and the object of it; how the brotherly spirit is introduced in this part of the chapter, and how the Lord asserts Himself in speaking to John in His sovereign rights, particularly as bearing on the present time. It is hoped the brethren will be free to speak their minds as to what has been read, and particularly that we may be together in the brotherly spirit and at the same time in the sense of victory which the chapter indicates is achieved by the Lord.

Rem. I suppose it is good to take note of verse 3, "Blessed is he that reads, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things written in it".

J.T. You are calling attention to verse 3 because of the blessedness it speaks of I suppose. It says, "Blessed is he that reads ... for the time is near". That is, there is a premium put on the reading of the book. It is sometimes called a sealed book and so the need for looking into it carefully and getting all that is in it in order to have the premium, the blessedness. The Lord clearly chose a trustworthy one to employ in the delivering of the matter, that is John, the apostle John, but here the brother John, we may call him, and also we may say, the prophet John, and more than all, the bondman John, Christ's bondman.

Ques. We get in Ephesians 1:9, "Having made known to us the mystery of his will". Does Revelation outline an important part of that mystery?

J.T. Well, I would read it in the light of the remarks of the Lord Himself recorded in Mark 13:32,

"Of that day or of that hour no one knows, neither the angels who are in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father. Take heed, watch and pray, for ye do not know when the time is; it is as a man gone out of the country, having left his house and given to his bond-men the authority, and to each one his work, and commanded the doorkeeper that he should watch. Watch therefore, for ye do not know when the master of the house comes: evening, or midnight, or cockcrow, or morning; lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. But what I say to you, I say to all, Watch". I should say that is a word that enters into this book. It is called "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place". That is, it is a revelation. It is not the Son using His own divine knowledge but receiving a revelation, and then as it is said, "He signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John". That is a special one. "Who testified the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all things that he saw". So that we are in the presence there of a revelation given to Christ Himself by the Father, by God. "Which God gave to him", and bondmen being employed, especially John, showing they are wholly subservient and available to the Lord in what is to be disclosed. So John takes the place of brother, not asserting his authority but just his brotherly relation and attitude. "I John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". That is he is one of us. The Lord had already intimated in mystery that if He willed He might keep John to the end, so it is that John's testimony enters into this book peculiarly as running on to the end.

J.Ttr. Do you link authority in Mark 13 with this testimony?

J.T. The authority given to His bondmen in

Mark 13:34, is a general allusion to the place the apostles had, in view of the Lord's departure.

Rem. It is interesting that the words you quoted from Mark 13, are the last recorded words of the Lord in that gospel.

J.T. It shows the importance of them, and the Lord taking the place of not knowing, not that He did not know divinely being God, but He says no one knows of that day or that hour -- no one knows, "nor the Son, but the Father". The Lord takes that lowly place, and then the authority is given to His bondmen. If we were to read the beginning of the Acts we would take it the authority was given to His apostles, which is true, but they are called bondmen, therefore the thought applies at any time; where there are such bondmen there is authority.

J.Ttr. Is it with us today?

J.T. I think so, on moral grounds. The idea of bondmanship spiritually exists, not ecclesiastical authority under the head of bishops and so on. It is bondmen of Christ. So even the angel who is used to give the instruction says in the last chapter, verse 6, "And the Lord God of the spirits of the prophets has sent his angel to shew to his bondmen the things which must soon come to pass. And behold I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book". And then John says, "And I, John, was he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to do homage before the feet of the angel who shewed me these things. And he says to me, See thou do it not. I am thy fellow-bondman, and the fellow-bondman of thy brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Do homage to God". So that the angel himself is brought into the bondmanship. The whole position therefore is on that footing. But what is in mind now is that we might see John as he

presents himself, and what is to be noted is the frequency of persons being identified, as John, and the angel, and the Lord Jesus Himself, as if we are all to be reminded of identification. The saints should be identified and identifiable. We have already noted in the book of Acts that the Spirit sat upon each of them there, Acts 2:3. It is seen there as the Spirit came in; therefore, we are identified spiritually.

Rem. The bondman would be in accord with the position.

J.T. That is the idea, and worked out in a man who can say he is fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience in Jesus. He is sharing everything with the saints.

Ques. We would distinguish between the ecclesiastical position and moral authority?

J.T. Quite so. The gospel of Mark is particularly on moral grounds. It begins with the Lord introduced immediately "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God; as it is written in Isaiah the prophet, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way. Voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. There came John baptising in the wilderness, and preaching the baptism of repentance for remission of sins", Mark 1:1 - 4. Then we are told how John was clothed. "And John was clothed in camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins, and ate locusts and wild honey". And then there is his preaching. So that the matter is urgent and introduced urgently and briefly, so that it should become effective, and the same would apply here. We have an introduction by John himself in verses 4 - 6 and then an ascription to the Lord, and God Himself introduced in verse 8. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, he who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty", God Himself

being pleased to introduce Himself in the almightiness of Deity, and yet apparently inclusive of the Lord Jesus. Matters are clearly and plainly stated for us that we might face the situation now, and begin with a companion like John sharing in the tribulations that exist. "Fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus".

Ques. Is the brotherly spirit necessary for the carrying of the position through?

J.T. I should think so, if we are to stay in it. The three terms, tribulation and kingdom and patience, are grouped together as one thing necessary to carrying through the whole matter.

Rem. "A brother is born for adversity", Proverbs 17:17.

J.T. Quite so. John is that brother and his qualifications are he is loved by Jesus. He trusted His mother to him. John is the model for us as one amongst us -- a loved person, loved by the Lord and reliable accordingly, and one of us, a fellow-partaker with the saints.

Rem. Would you encourage us who are younger to take up books like these -- Revelation, Daniel etc.?

J.T. I should say so, because I hardly know of any other book with a premium attached to reading it. There are good books written to help us, and the Spirit of God is ready to help us, and the premium is attached to reading this book, the book itself.

The apostle manifests the fears and apprehensions that are common to us all. He was a great apostle and yet was afraid in these circumstances and had to be set up again. The Lord touched him. "He laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not". The Lord asserts His supremacy, what He is according to what He says, "I am the first and the last, and the living one: and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death

and of hades". These are His acquirements and it is to be noticed that John saw Him amongst the candlesticks. It is not Christ in heaven, but amongst the candlesticks, what He is down here moving amongst them. John represents change of circumstances and in them we are apt to be distressed; what terrible experiences the saints have gone through. Even John was afraid by what he saw, but the Lord says, "Fear not". That is the first point we are to lay hold of -- how John went through this in the presence of the circumstances and found relief in the Lord's presence and touch. He presents Himself in a vision according to what He is by acquirement. It is according to what He is divinely too, for He is introduced earlier as the Alpha and the Omega; He who is and was and is to come, refers to what He is divinely, but His acquirements are in view too.

H.P.W. Is it encouraging to see "John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus", that character of man is the one who became in the Spirit on the Lord's Day. If we want to get spiritual manifestations, this is the way to get them.

J.T. That is a good way of presenting it. I hope we will all take it in. "I became in the Spirit on the Lord's day". How many are not, especially in days when double wages are paid on the Lord's Day, and so many are ensnared by this instead of being in the Spirit.

Rem. There are three things mentioned in verse 4, and the one you have drawn attention to, verse 8, "who is, and who was, and who is to come". Does this help us to understand?

J.T. Quite so. The Lord is presented to us divinely there, but when we come to the vision, John says, "And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me". The voice said, "What thou seest write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies".

And John turned back, "and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps". He saw certain other things too, but the position in the seven golden lamps is what we should notice particularly.

H.P.W. I was thinking that I am sure all of us greatly desire to know what it is to be in the Spirit on the Lord's Day and get spiritual manifestations, and what you draw attention to is helpful. "Your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus". I wondered whether all these things coupled together have to have a place with us all. The fact is that the brethren may have to face further tribulation, and the kingdom and patience go alongside of that to help us.

J.T. Exactly. What may come may be gathered up from the prophetic word, and this whole book tells us what is to happen, what is to happen particularly in Christendom. John is telling us he is a brother. He goes through this experience with the Lord, falling at His feet as dead, in verse 17 -- "When I saw him I fell at his feet as dead". That is he is like all of us, capable of being affected by happenings and by appearances, but in this case it is how the Lord appears. He is appearing in a new way, and that is because the circumstances had changed among the saints in the seven assemblies. It is because of this the Lord takes on a new garb; He is not seen as the Jesus of the gospel, He is seen in different garb and habiliments. The Lord comes in from time to time. He is seen here in the midst of the seven lamps, hence He visits the assemblies, and He is sure to come in in relation to conditions. John is to understand. Therefore, having fallen at His feet as dead he is like ourselves, liable to be affected. We are all liable to be affected thus. But it is a question of how the Lord is to be known here, how He meets us. "He laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first

and the last, and the living one; and I became dead, and behold I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades". So John is thus set up in the presence of the situation in confidence, made to live with Christ, the "living one", afresh. The idea of life is introduced in this book. It is introduced afresh, not as in John and the epistle to the Romans, but He is alive to the ages of ages and He is in control of all that is adverse. So we are set up to go through the position that is indicated. Then there is what each one is to do. With John it was to write what he saw -- not to teach or preach -- and the order in which he should write. God has blessed us with writings and it is important we should know their value and read them, read them accordingly in the order in which they are written. The Lord gives the order in which this book is to be written.

H.P.W. Whilst the Lord is the first and the last in the widest possible sense as He appears to John, our brother and fellow-partaker in tribulation and kingdom and patience, He says virtually 'I have started with you and will finish with you'. The Lord in any presentation to us would encourage us.

J.T. Just so. If it be discipline, He says, I am going through it with you, notwithstanding the need for discipline; not that it was discipline here. The Lord acts in the most gracious way with John. He says I have other work for you to do and I am going to tell you how to do it. In chapter 10 we have an additional thought to this. The Lord is seen there placing His right foot on the sea and His left on the earth, and He "cried with a loud voice as a lion roars". Then He has a little book in His hand, a little opened book, and John is to take this little book, according to a later verse, and eat it up. He says in verse 9, "And I went to the angel, saying to him to give me the little book. And he says to me, Take and eat it up

and it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey ... And it was said to me, Thou must prophesy again as to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings". Now this is additional to what you were saying. The service is to go on, but something has happened that shows it is needful to bring home to him what is involved in the ministry. The little book contained what was needed and John is to eat it up, and as eating it he is to prophesy again. The servant taken up is to continue. The Lord may have to discipline him and put him through various exercises, but the service is to go on. "Thou must prophesy again". That is most encouraging for us in the service. The Lord sees what is needed and will put us through it, but the service goes on.

Rem. The further prophesyings are richer than the first.

J.T. If we had only time to go through it we should see that what the brethren have been through in these countries has come about as illustrative of what the little book contains. It contains certain things that caused bitterness to the prophet. We can say what we have been through was needful sooner or later so that the testimony should continue.

A. M. Paul had the sentence of death in himself. He went through terrible experiences after he wrote 1 Corinthians and in the second epistle he tells us about them.

J.T. Very good. He had been down to the gates of death.

Ques. What is in mind as to the little book?

J.T. It is a little book. I would take it not to be a great deal. It is not like a great history, showing how God can say a great deal in a little. The history of Christendom can be said in a few words, but the judgment of God and the government of God are in what is said.

J.S.E. We may look in an objective way at the movements of the testimony, but the reality of this has to be faced and felt in one's spirit.

J.T. The Lord would help us to see that what brethren have been through especially in these countries -- I cannot say I have been through it except in sympathy -- was needed and needed not for our own sakes but for the testimony. The Lord says You must prophesy again. You have had good meetings here and they have not continued, but you will have them again.

Rem. You have told us of the bitter, can you tell us of the sweet?

J.T. It is a question of the little book thus presented, the terribleness that would be, and yet the sweetness of the word of God. This book is to be read. There is blessedness in reading it but if we love the people of God we cannot but feel the things that they must go through. Now this glorious showing of the Lord Himself and all that is involved in it is what we should take account of too, and be ready in the light of it to do what is next to be done -- to do the next thing.

Ques. Is it comely to fall at His feet as dead or is it weakness? The glory of Christ would give us to feel our human position.

J.T. Quite so. You would not like to say much, but the Lord laid His right hand on His servant. We are dealing with bondmen and it is a question of each saint being that. This shows how the Lord's servants are treated tenderly and set up again so that the work may continue, and the next thing is to write. Each is to find out what his work is to be. The Lord would touch us. We are working under orders as it were, as the Levites were under Eleazar, Numbers 3:32. The Lord is our Superintendent, and the Spirit too, to tell us how to do the work.

Ques. The Lord laid His hand on John and also held the stars in His hand; is there any correspondence?

J.T. Yes; He is holding them and later on He has them. But this first chapter is that we should all be at work and get our work from the Lord and do it. "Cursed be he that doeth the work of Jehovah negligently", Jeremiah 48:10. The Lord wants us to work according to His order. We are to be characterised by the fact that He that does the work is God, John 14:10.

J.Ttr. When does the Lord present Himself to us as to John?

J.T. It is a question of levitical order and enters into the book of the Acts. Peter is working according to levitical order. Levites' work is heavy work according to what is stated in Numbers but the apostles knew what to do. Peter begins and is preaching standing up with the eleven, not by himself, that is, recognising that all the others were in the same service. We are not working independently. We are all in it and the Lord is over it, and it is for each one to fill his own place. I do not suppose any one of us would be an acceptable servant unless we go through something like this. We have here what John went through.

Rem. In the whole of scripture great servants have to go through experiences before they proceed.

J.T. They all had to go through it and so have we.

Ques. What we are speaking of follows the Lord's appearing amongst the assemblies here. Would there be anything like it for us unless we have a judgment as to what is ecclesiastical?

J.T. John heard a voice behind him telling him what to do. "Write therefore what thou hast seen". And he is told what to do with it. "What thou seest

write in a book, and send to the seven assemblies", and their names are given. And then it says he turned to see the voice. He wanted to see the Person whose voice it was, but the voice was the first point, then he saw the Lord, a Person like the Son of man in the midst of the seven lamps, and then we are told how He was clothed. This is John's experience given so that we might understand how the Lord serves His servants and cares for them and sets them up in life. It is not John as he was in the gospels, or the time of the gospels, it is some time after. Changes have come about, and there is some writing to be done and the Lord tells him how to do it. It is to be written in a certain order. The work is done at the Lord's direction whatever it be.

J.Ttr. The Lord addresses the assemblies in various ways.

J.T. It brings out the thought of the Lord's surveillance of all that is done. It is all under His eye. He walks in the midst we are told elsewhere. The Lord is expected to come to this city according to the state of things here, or to London, or New York, and we are to be ready to face the consequences. As to what is there we are to be ready to meet it.

Ques. Why is it not the Son of God here?

J.T. All judgment is in the hand of the Son of man. The Father judges no man, we are told. The Lord takes it on, judgment is involved but the judgment is not imminent, there is prolonged care and patience of the Lord towards the saints. The Lord speaks to Thyatira as Son of God, meaning He is over the house, and Thyatira is entrenching on the rights of the Son of God in the house. Judgment is not direct but threatened. "Her children will I kill with death". But the Lord is patient and we are to be too. And when the Lord comes to Birmingham, something will happen if things are not right. The

Lord puts it on the brethren to adjust it. He says, "I know thy works". He speaks of the good first, and then He says, "But I have against thee that thou permittest the woman Jezebel". That is a serious matter. The Lord is coming to this town and if there is want of love amongst the brethren He will tell us. It may be by the ministry meeting. So those who minister ought to know the current state. The Lord is with them. He says, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. He is with us so that we may say the right thing in meetings for ministry, and say it well.

A.M. In verse 16 there is a sharp two-edged sword, is that used in ministry?

J.T. I should think so. Therefore the importance of ministry meetings. Ministry in a prophetic sense has a sharp edge to it and is intended to have it, and God gives us gifts for that purpose. This is an additional thing -- the book of Revelation is additional to what is in the epistles, and the Lord is in a new attitude, an attitude of surveillance. As Samuel went round in a circuit in his day, so the Lord does now and He is armed with means of dealing with conditions, whatever they may be, so that these ministry meetings become a great weapon in the Lord's hand in dealing with conditions in the local gatherings.

Ques. Would not the prophetic word expose the whole issue of things?

J.T. Quite so. The book of Revelation is an addition. It does not nullify anything said. It meets changed conditions in the assemblies. The Lord is not abolishing the system set up in heaven. That stands and is to be used, yet there are these additional things so that the brethren may see to bring about changes to themselves, that we may use what is in the system set up. It is a great encouragement that there

is all this set up for us, so that we might continue, for a great thing has happened and we should take note of it and see why it has happened. The work should go on and be accelerated for worse things are coming, and how are we going to face them?

Rem. In referring to chapter 10, the way the Lord is presented has a bearing upon us at the present moment. Should we know Him in that connection?

J.T. Well, it is a further thought really. It is additional to what we have in chapter 1. It is another presentation of the Lord and has a political bearing, that is the earth and sea, involving the Navy and the Army, and how the Lord will deal with them. We have to wait for that, He has not taken it up yet. What we have now is not so much political but ecclesiastical, and the means He has at hand to deal with things now.

J.S.E. Is that why the symbol of the stars is used?

J.T. Quite so, they are the angels of the seven assemblies. They are a mysterious element of responsibility as obligations are put on them.

"HAVE YE UNDERSTOOD ALL THESE THINGS?"

Matthew 11:25 - 30; Matthew 13:36 - 52

J.T. These last two verses are really in mind as to what should be before us: in general it is to link up chapter 11 with chapter 13, specially bearing on the three parables beginning with verse 44 and ending with verse 50. Chapter 11 affords a foundation for what is in mind because it contemplates the Lord's rejection here and His immediate relation with His Father, the holy links of the Father and the Son, and the Son's position before the Father as saying to us, "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me" -- the thought of learning from Him referring to His position as a model for us in these circumstances, all leading up to the assembly. That is briefly what was before one so the time at our disposal as regards chapter 11 is not long. Chapter 13 is the main thought, that is, the three parables: the treasure in the field, the pearl and the net cast into the sea, culminating in the Lord's enquiry in verse 51, which it is hoped will be an appeal, a challenge to us: "Have ye understood all these things?" There has been much instruction, and it is desired that we will receive this challenge as to how much we have learned and are learning.

E.T. Have we to begin as babes?

J.T. I thought that: it is a foundational allusion, the wise and prudent being those who pretend to know religiously, but the Father taking up babes, indicating that He has been working in a fatherly or generative way so as to bring about men such as He has before Him in His thoughts and purposes. It is a question of the Father, how the Father is pleased to operate.

E.T.S. Does that lie at the root of everything we

have to understand in the later chapter -- the Father's operations?

J.T. I would say so: as the Lord said to Nicodemus, "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things?" How is it you do not know certain things that relate to the new birth? Men may know much but know nothing about the new birth and the Father's operations and mind in view of having a man according to His own thought.

Ques. What would be the indications that we are learning?

J.T. I suppose the answer here, "Yea, Lord", would indicate that if the Lord looked into their countenances He would discern there was intelligence there. What you see in the countenances of the brethren would indicate whether they have learned. So in writing to the Corinthians in regard of the Lord's supper the apostle says, "I speak as to intelligent persons". Intelligence should be in our countenances if we are learning.

Ques. Would that apply in the case of Stephen? It says his face shone.

J.T. There was an angelic appearance in it; it might go a little further than what we are speaking of. Of course you would love to think of the brethren as having angelic faces, but I think the idea of intelligence in our countenances should be with us.

W.L. Would that include what we are in our spirits too?

J.T. I should think so. The countenance would represent what is in our mind. A man is composed of body, soul and spirit and the spirit seemingly is that in which we are nearest to God, so it should reflect our relations with God and our formation from God.

Ques. Was David's countenance a reflex of what he was as a man after God's own heart?

J.T. The ruddiness of his countenance would

indicate life, I should think, and life according to God should carry with it intelligence. Hence Abigail, who is, you might say, the counterpart of David femininely, was a woman of a beautiful countenance, and she was a woman of intelligent discernment.

J.T.S. You spoke of the Lord as model in chapter 11, to contemplate, but in chapter 13 they approach Him inquiringly: "Expound to us". He had said in chapter 11, "Learn from me".

J.T. That is what I had in mind. It is a Man in the presence of the Father, because the Jewish side is abandoned as rejecting Him; the Lord is accepting the rejection and in accepting it He is showing what He is in Manhood, not simply as in Judaism. In Manhood He is a Son, so He speaks to His Father in that relation. One might say there is an unseen voice which the Lord answers -- "Jesus answering said, I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight. All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". This is instruction, whereas verses 25 and 26 refer to His relation and speech to His Father. Then comes His appeal: "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart". The Lord Jesus is rejected by the Jews; He turns to His Father in the consciousness of His Sonship and His knowledge of the Father and addresses all who labour and are heavy laden to come to Him. As Man before the Father He is as the Model for us, both as to our inward state and enjoyment and for our instruction. I think the line of

instruction is running through these chapters, and it finishes up in the Lord's inquiry as to whether they understood these things. Hence the point in mind is the challenge as to whether we do understand. There is much teaching and learning, but have we understood these things and followed them up?

E.T.S. It is a wonderful way to learn -- "Learn from Me". We should learn if we are before Him and in His presence more.

J.T. To learn from Him as a model is a wonderful thing. If there is discouragement, well, He is the Model for us.

A.M. Is there a difference between the Father revealing and the Son revealing?

J.T. I would think so. You will notice the Lord says, "All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal him". The Son is not said to be revealed, but the Father is said to be revealed by the Son; no one knows the Son but the Father.

A.M. I was thinking of the Father revealing to babes and then also the Father revealing to Peter in chapter 16, and whether that was different from the Son revealing.

J.T. The revelation to Peter was not the revelation of the Son to him; it was the revelation of a Man, the Person as He was who stood before Peter. Hence Peter's answer, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" -- that is, Christ as He was down here in Manhood.

W.B. A great feature in the present economy is the knowledge of the Father and the Son. What is the bearing of Proverbs 30:2 - 4. "... I have not a man's intelligence. I have neither learned wisdom, nor have I the knowledge of the Holy. Who hath ascended up

into the heavens, and descended? ... What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?"

J.T. The Son as such is not said to be revealed, the Son is inscrutable. The revelation here is of the Father, by the Son.

W.G.C. The Lord's question in chapter 16 was, "Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am?"

J.T. The answer of Peter is, not simply, "Thou art the Son", but "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". It is to bring out the combination of features in the Lord's Person here below in testimony. There is the idea of revelation in that chapter, and in Ephesians it is the Lord's Manhood to which we grow.

A.B. Would "the Son" imply a divine Person here in Manhood?

J.T. Yes, If it is taken in that way, as the Son in Manhood, He is the Model for us.

The word "know" in verse 27 implies full knowledge, not a mere objective acquaintance. The Father and Son know each other in perfection according to what they are for each other. As to the Son Himself, He is inscrutable.

Rem. It means to us that the Father only knows Him.

J.T. That is the idea: "No one knows the Son but the Father, nor does any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal Him". The Father is the object of revelation here. It is in order to get that basis that we have touched on the eleventh chapter. There is a Model set before us in Man, nevertheless a divine Person. The line of instruction runs through, and in chapter 13 the Lord is pleased to take up the kingdom, and speak of the mysteries of it.

After having unfolded certain parables He went into the house and they inquired about the parable of the tares, which He unfolded to them. He then

likened the kingdom of the heavens to the treasure hid in the field, then the pearl, and then the net of fishes. These are mysteries which apply particularly to our own times and refer to the assembly.

Ques. Do mysteries refer to the way the kingdom is understood now, before it is set up in manifestation?

J.T. That is the idea. Christianity is a mystery, it is not what anyone can understand; it can only be understood by those who are born again, as were the disciples. The Lord calls attention to this in speaking to them (verses 10 to 18). "Hear ye, therefore, the parable of the sower". It is that they were able to understand, indicating that they were the work of God. "Blessed are your eyes". The appeal is to us, having eyes to make the most of what is available to us: hence we can answer in the affirmative the Lord's question in verse 51. It is a challenge, and I thought the Lord may use this suggestion to lead to a better understanding of the truth, because the answer brings out a further thought. "For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old". He singles out a scribe and a householder. He is aiming at setting up among themselves the idea of a model, one to be observed and followed, as the Lord Himself is.

J.H. Is this the thought of manhood going forward?

J.T. I would think so; that is what is in mind -- the reproduction of Himself in measure, and if we have such men then we have some guide and leadership. What is always needed is leadership in the things of God; a scribe is supposed to be an accurate man; he is, moreover, a householder and can display things.

J.H.T. So the babes in Thessalonica, the assembly "in God the Father" had an advantage in having

Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus: "Ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake".

J.T. "What manner of men", that is good. You have the same at Corinth: "The Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus" -- you have men whom you can follow. It is a most important thing for us at the present time because the tendency is to introduce novelties in what is said.

E.T.S. Would they have all these three parables very much before them?

J.T. I think so. Ask one of these men about the treasure hid in a field, what would he say about that! The two parables are very much alike, but they are not the same. One is a treasure hid in a field, and the other is a pearl, so that a man discipled into the kingdom of the heaven would be able to find something that would illuminate you.

W.L. Has he found the hidden treasure?

J.T. I think so. The treasure, however, is just mentioned as such. We do not know whether it is gold, silver, or precious stones; it is just treasure and it is in a field, which may be designated "that field", or it may be the whole world. It looks however, as if it is a particular field that the treasure is in.

W.L. You have the assembly in mind in speaking of the treasure?

J.T. Quite so. There are two things mentioned, the historical purchase and then the present purchase or acquirement. "Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls; and having found one pearl of great value, he went and sold all whatever he had and bought it". It is a historical transaction that is alluded to. I do not know if that has any meaning to you?

W.L. I was going back to your suggestion. What

would this man say? He might say, I have found the treasure, I know something about the assembly.

J.T. I believe that it is a man that preaches that is in mind, a man who goes out into the field and secures material for the assembly. He knows what the treasure is in the Lord's mind, and I believe it is to be opened up because it is a present thing. Verse 44 is in the present tense: "the kingdom of the heavens is like a treasure hid in the field, which a man having found has hid, and for the joy of it goes and sells whatever he has, and buys that field". "Whatever he has", not whatever he had, "and buys that field". It seems to be a particular field, not the whole world, I would say, but where you could get material such as is suitable for the Lord's present operations.

Ques. Would the word to Sardis fit in -- "thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments"? I was thinking of Sardis as that from whence the Lord is bringing out material.

J.T. That is good, and I think it would also cover any preacher that might attempt to be a missionary, who is thinking of going to China for instance. He would learn that "that field" is not China. Someone who came from the east told me lately that there is only one meeting in the whole of Asia. "The field" is evidently not there.

Rem. The Holy Spirit forbad the apostle to go in a certain field, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered him not to go to another; apparently it was the Philippian field that was in mind.

J.T. If there are only a few brothers in fellowship in the whole of Asia we may be sure that is not the field where the treasure is.

Ques. Should our eyes be on the "field that is being reaped"?

J.T. That is a suggestion; Ruth was not to go outside of it. It is a question of what is in mind in

"the field". A scribe instructed in the kingdom of the heavens would know, and it is important we should know where the treasure is. If therefore the whole of Asia has only one meeting and has had very little to show for the whole of the dispensation except at the beginning, we may conclude that we have to look somewhere else for the field where the treasure is.

E.T.S. Would you think the brethren who went out one hundred years ago had this before them?

J.T. Some went from Dublin to Baghdad in the beginning of the present revival, but they, did not get anything. In India there have been a few meetings, but largely from European sources; current missionary ideas therefore are not according to what the Lord has in mind here.

W.L. Looking for the treasure is a more spiritual matter than the fishing.

J.T. Quite so, but when the Lord says to Peter, Go to the sea and cast a hook, and you will find a stater in the first fish that comes up, the Lord's sovereignty is in the matter; He knows where the treasure is and how to get it.

Note the tense in the 44th verse: "The kingdom of the heavens is like a treasure hid in the field, which a man having found has hid, and for the joy of it goes and sells all whatever he has, and buys that field". He throws in all that He has now. Hence I would say the Lord is spending all these centuries in this sense, working out the great matter of the assembly where the material is.

J.T.S. The woman of worth considers a field and buys it.

J.T. Very well; she herself would be a great find. There was not such a one until the Lord came, and had the assembly in mind.

Rem. Some areas on the Continent are not favoured as regards gospel testimony.

J.T. Take Germany for instance; there was a great field three hundred years ago, it is not yielding much now. So we have to consider what comes about now -- what sort of a yield and where the treasure is. What has become of Turkey and the whole of the Mohammedan world? You may make up your mind that if you go there to evangelise, you will not obtain much. The governmental element is current at the present time and we have to find where the field is.

J.H.T. Is Paul in the field in Corinth, where the Lord says, "I have much people in this city", and then at Ephesus where was "the assembly of God which he has purchased with the blood of his own"?

J.T. That is good: hence He had His workmen at Corinth, and He said, "Fear not ... no one shall set upon thee to injure thee". I was also thinking of His spending all that He has -- what, for instance, was expended after the Corinthians were converted, to perfect them; the whole matter rests on Him.

Ques. Would you link what has been said with the word in Corinthians: "I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray also with the understanding"?

J.T. Quite so, hence if you have exercises about going to a field for the Lord, go to Australia and other places around where are fields that are yielding. If you take any Roman Catholic field you will find very little. In a field controlled by Modernism such as Germany, or any of such countries on the Continent, you will not get much. You have to deal with facts: the Lord knows the good treasure hid in the field, and for the joy of it He sells all whatever He has and buys "that field". It is remarkable that the joy is not occasioned by the pearl, it is in the treasure and no one knows where the treasure is but the Lord, because He has hidden it. Therefore I would say it is of the Lord if it is now in the Colonies and the field is

extending far in the world. The Lord has had joy in it all these centuries, and has His own time for bringing out these things.

Rem. It says of Cornelius that his prayers and his alms had gone up as a memorial before God.

J.T. The memorial had already been set up in heaven before he received the Spirit. There was a great amount of expenditure on him. Three men were sent to Joppa to fetch Peter, and Peter himself was directed by the Spirit to go to Cornelius. The Lord knew what Cornelius was and he was already building up something in heaven before he received the Spirit. Then when he had the Spirit he would be much greater, much more fruitful.

Ques. Would this material be the result of the Father's working?

J.T. I would think so; what the Lord says of the Father would indicate that.

E.T.S. Some of us would not be able to get to Australia, would you encourage us to look nearer home?

J.T. You do not have to go to a place to be assured of what is there; I would take things on testimony, that is what they did at the beginning. Paul had it in mind to go to Spain, but you never read of his going there. So we can learn things on testimony and in that way find out where the treasure is likely to be at the present time.

Ques. Have we before us now two great facts: firstly, what is to be put into it on our side (he sells whatever he has), and secondly to find out where the field is?

J.T. I think the Lord would indicate where the field is. The government of God would help; it is used for that very purpose. For instance, Aquila and Priscilla were in Rome, and they had to leave it because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave

Rome. The apostle found them at Corinth and they were great helpers in the work there.

J.H.T. "The report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to ... Antioch: who, having arrived and seeing the grace of God, rejoiced". Was Antioch a fruitful field?

J.T. That is another feature, they had ears: it is a point as to testimony. There is such an idea as church ears, and the assembly at Jerusalem had such. They learned from information available of what had happened at Antioch, and they sent out Barnabas. I think that is the way things work out. If anyone wants to go out on a field in service you can depend on the testimony of the brethren as to it. The Lord has His servants here, and He has already been at a considerable cost with regard to them and has made Himself responsible for still more "whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee". He would say to us at times, 'It is your duty to do, I have paid considerably already'. We ought to learn to work for nothing if necessary, because the overhead is very great. There is the idea of servants being apprentices who do not expect wages; the general principle of an apprentice is that he does not get any, and the Lord would tell us that there are things we ought to be doing without any wages. He spends all -- all that He has; the Lord is putting everything into it so as to get everything out of it, and His servants ought to be on that line. Paul says he did not use what he had a right to so as to make the glad tidings costless to others.

W.G.C. Spending and being spent would be the idea.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Would this be worked out in Philip? He went by the direction of the angel into a desert.

J.T. He was sent and he found the eunuch, but he was not sent to Samaria so far as we know. That is another point that comes up as regards evangelisation service: the young brethren have to win their spurs, as it were. So Philip went down to Samaria, it does not say he was sent. "There was great joy in that city" but no Holy Spirit was given to them. The gift of the Holy Spirit is heaven's matter, not that of the servant, the Lord has to provide that. That is a most important side. He went up to heaven to beg the Father about the Spirit, and He sent Him forth. Philip was not honoured in that connection; through Paul the Spirit was given, through Peter the Spirit was given, but not through Philip. That is one thing to exercise those who are seeking to be labourers. In Luke 11, 13 it says, "... how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask Him?" We cannot afford to be without the Holy Spirit.

A.B. When the question was raised in Acts 2, "What shall we do, brethren?" Peter said, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, ... for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

J.T. If we are working in the field we should be very concerned about the persons whom we seek to serve, that they have the Holy Spirit. The field is only worked in view of that; there is no other thought in the gospel than that the person should get the Holy Spirit.

Ques. How would you discern that a person has the Spirit?

J.T. By his affections and his desires after Christ. The next word relates to the pearl: "Again, the kingdom of the heavens is like a merchant seeking beautiful pearls; and having found one pearl of great value, he went and sold all whatever he had and bought it". That would be a matter more of purpose,

a settled matter. The value of the pearl is already known by persons who can judge, and it is "of great value". So the Lord sold everything that He had, which I believe would be a historic matter, a fixed matter.

Rem. The one who has profited by these things and understands is likened to a householder with treasure.

J.T. The word is used in a typical sense, and we want to speak in anti-typical language. The Levite, for instance, is one that works hard; and therefore as understanding these things in that sense, we ought to be, as the Lord says here: "Every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old".

J.T.S. Would the teaching of verses 45 and 46 leave the sense upon our spirits that the assembly is Christ's and of its great value to Him?

J.T. I am sure that is so. It is a fixed matter, and a finished matter; the overhead is all settled historically. The Lord was looking for pearls, but apparently He never found anything like this, which He speaks of as of great value. It would be the assembly as apprehended by the Lord as from God. As a historical matter the transaction has already taken place, the pearl is secured, but the 44th verse is a matter that has gone on for years. The Lord is constantly spending, and is spending on the material so as to get the treasure. He is going to great expense to bring about conditions in a certain part of the earth that would afford material such as He would have pleasure in, and this has been going on these nineteen hundred years. Whatever He has He expends on it: He will not stop at anything. But the pearl is a known thing; it is a matter of a merchant, a person with a knowledge of the commodity, and he secures it by purchase.

Ques. Are you suggesting that there are possibly different kinds of material in the treasure?

J.T. Whatever it is. The Lord does not say what it is; we have to take His word for it and in working it out we shall see what it is. The early evangelists soon found out what it was, what joy there was in it. I can understand what joy the apostles had in the result of the first address by Peter.

Ques. "To him be glory in the assembly" -- would that be in line?

J.T. Well, yes. It is a question of what the Lord found and hid. Then what joy the workers, the apostles, the evangelists and teachers had! It was not doleful work: the Lord had joy and they shared it. The Jewish ideal did not come up to the Lord's ideal in this hidden treasure; He kept it quiet, there was joy in it.

Rem. "Who for the joy that was set before him…"

J.T. Here it is the joy of it. It is the same idea of course, but I would seek to work it out that way -- the joy of it. What joys the apostles must have had in their work!

J.T.S. "Ye are our glory and joy" -- and the apostle John says, "I have no greater joy ..."

J.T. As regards the pearl, He went and sold all whatever He had and bought it. We read such a thing as, "I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee". There were things in the counsels of God that belonged to the Lord as Man: all that was put into the matter, it is a settled thing in the Lord's death. This other matter, this present matter, however, in connection with which the Lord has been working all these centuries, is to be noted -- the joy of finding every saint. Heaven is full of joy, there is replenishment of joy in heaven all the time, over every sinner that repenteth -- it is not a doleful but a joyous matter.

Rem. The Lord prays to the Father for those who should believe on Him through their word.

J.T. The Lord had them in His heart when He prayed, and He had joy in them. What joy the Lord had in the apostles -- if we only start there! Wherever the truth comes out you will find this joy in some sense -- when, for instance, the Lord went up into heaven. He was carried up in Luke; Paul says He was received up in glory; the Israelitish mother is not in mind, the securing of the earth is not in mind, but we may be sure the Lord is not doleful but joyful. The Lord finds joy in every convert, as do those who are workers with Him. The scriptures abound in testimony as to what the early servants found in the Lord -- joy.

Colossians indicates incompleteness in things: to present every man perfect is in view in Colossians, therefore completeness is needed, but what will be the completeness, the finished product as the Lord comes down from heaven! The assembling shout has to be understood in that connection. This is the great thing He has had in mind all these centuries.

Ques. Would Paul's word to Timothy help: "Think of what I say, for the Lord, will give thee understanding in all things"? You referred to the disciples saying, "Yea, Lord".

J.T. You may be sure the Lord accepted what they said. He accepts them as ready for the work; each one of them had a treasure out of which to bring things new and old. What He is speaking about to the disciples now involves joy as well.

Ques. Could we have a word on the net?

J.T. That is a side where things are good and bad -- a cause of sorrow as well as of joy -- verses 47 - 48. We are at the end of the age now, gathering out the good from the bad. It is somewhat sorrowful to have to throw away, but there is good, and it is a

question now of getting the good. We want to get all the brethren at the present time in view of the coming of the Lord, to get them all in. In John's ministry there comes up the idea of great fish -- whether the Lord would encourage us by bringing some great ones in for the replenishment of the meetings, so that the testimony goes on in power.

Rem. So there is still great abundance in the sea.

J.T. That is the way to look at it. Sometimes we get a great fish; John brings in the idea of that element.

J.H.T. The house of Justus at Corinth and the school of Tyrannus would represent the sorting principle. Treasure is discovered, then the subsequent ministry relates to the pearl.

J.T. The brethren who are in service do not, perhaps, have so much to do with sorrowful cases. I was thinking when Paul and Barnabas finished their first missionary journey they returned to Antioch and remained with the brethren certain days, apparently a considerable period of time, and then they had to do with conflict, not joyous things. They had to go to Jerusalem and deal with certain injurious elements. The question is whether those who are engaged in getting the fish spend much time in the care meetings?

J.H.T. I do not miss many!

Rem. You want us to be challenged as to whether we have understood these things.