Pages 1 to 140 -- "Vessels for Service". South Africa, 1947 (Volume 173)

VESSELS FOR SERVICE

Exodus 25:23 - 30; Isaiah 22:23, 24

J.T. The thought in mind is that of pouring out, as seen in Exodus 25:29. In this chapter, verses 23 to 30, we have the table of shewbread and the vessels of service attached to it for the service of pouring out. In Isaiah 22:23, 24 we have a detailed reference to vessels of service; "small vessels, as well the vessels of cups as all the vessels of flagons". The verses in Isaiah help to show how all are to be in the service of God. Each vessel represents a person who should function in his place. The table in the sanctuary in Exodus 25 affords a basis to speak of administration in relation to these vessels, however it may be in the Lord's mind to use us. The idea of pouring out is the general thought in regard of the vessels, as it is said in Exodus 25, "And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and cups thereof, and goblets thereof, and bowls thereof, with which to pour out". In Titus Paul says, "The Holy Spirit, which he poured out on us richly". So the thought of pouring out is linked with the Holy Spirit given by Christ from heaven and then administered by Him in the assembly. The result intended is that each person, being dependent on Christ, should function according to the Lord's pleasure and so be available for divine service in the assembly whether in relation to Himself, or the Father. The service of God is not an empty form, not mere ritual, but is worked out livingly through persons viewed as vessels, whatever they may have, or whatever use the Lord may make of them.

C.M.M. What does the shewbread imply?

J.T. Again it refers to persons. It typifies the saints viewed administratively. In Exodus it is viewed as 'the bread of the presence'; it is bread or food, always there before God. That is the general thought in the type.

P.L. In Matthew 26, Mary, having broken the box of very precious ointment, poured it out on His head, as He lay at table. There was the pouring out.

J.T. Yes. The Lord said, "In pouring out this ointment on my body, she has done it for my burying". Mary of Bethany was a very distinctive vessel. We have another vessel in the woman of Samaria in John 4, who came out of the city with her water-pot, and left it after the Lord had met and instructed her as to living water. As a result she arrived at the idea of belonging to that system and functioning, being useful in it. In 1 Kings 17 we have another, the woman of Sarepta, who had things in her house in vessels; the meal was in a barrel and the oil in a cruse. That was where they should be and they were therefore usable, and so she was serviceable to Elijah as a type of Christ. Jehovah says He had commanded her to maintain Elijah and she did. He had been served by ravens before, but now this woman was to care for him.

W.O.S. Paul speaks of himself as being poured out as a libation in a sacrificial service (Philippians 2:17).

J.T. Yes. He was something that could be added to the sacrifice and ministration of the Philippians. We should be ready thus to add to whatever is going on that is of God.

C.deK.F. There was pure gold in Mary of Bethany.

J.T. Yes, the Lord said, "Wheresoever these glad tidings may be preached in the whole world, that also which this woman has done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her". She, like many others,

thus comes down the line to us as illustrating the material usable for service and for preaching.

P.L. The "sons of oil" in Zechariah 4 have two golden tubes that empty the gold out of themselves.

J.T. Yes. The gold is not in us naturally. All begins with Christ and every vessel hangs on Him. It begins with Him, but does not end with Him.

H.W.R. There were different sizes of cups and vessels, so we would each have our own measure.

J.T. It is not a one-man ministry; each believer is a vessel. Paul, speaking of his measure, says to the Corinthians that it was "to reach to you". He did not serve beyond his measure, but effectively through the power of his ministry. It was not going a journey to preach. Divine measures are exact, whatever they are in view of; this is specially seen in Exodus.

H.W. The Lord as Minister of the sanctuary has all the vessels under His hand and knows the measure of each.

J.T. Yes. Exodus is typical of what we have in mind, the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man, and all the vessels are His. In Genesis all service to God is without direction from God, but in Exodus all is measured.

H.W. So that there is to be full recognition of God right through.

J.T. We serve in parts and by direction and the service goes on under Christ.

S.P.S. Is this indicated in Isaiah in the word, "They shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house"?

J.T. The prophet was directed to make known what Jehovah would do. There was one to be removed so that way might be made for Christ; Eliakim typifies Him.

S.S. What is meant by saying that the measures are exact?

J.T. It is a question of God's thoughts. In creation itself He must have wrought on the principle of weight and measure, and so likewise in Exodus God does not leave things indefinite in His service. Things are not left open for anyone to do as he pleases. All is to be according to God's mind.

H.W.R. God is a God of measure, as seen in Job 28:25; Job 38:5.

J.T. Yes. Nothing is left open to be decided by man's mind. Christendom is simply a monstrosity from the divine standpoint, as things are carried on according to human standards.

A.M. The vessels are of pure gold. We are to accustom ourselves to regard the saints as God sees us, "holy and blameless before him in love", Ephesians 1:4. There is no admixture.

J.T. There is no admixture, but there is to be no isolation because of variation of measure. It is not dependent on man's mind, but on God's mind. The Lord Jesus is in God's mind in Isaiah 22 and all is to hang on Him. The Christ is the One who does things. The Lord in Mark 8 asks His disciples, "Who do men say that I am?" Peter answers for the disciples and says that they would say "Thou art the Christ". Previously it had been said that "He does all things well". When there is something out of order with us such as failure in speech, as the man in Mark 7 "who could not speak right", we are to think of the Lord's feelings. "He groaned".

D.S. What does pouring out imply?

J.T. It refers to the action of Christ in using the saints. He is the great Superintendent of all in the service of God, so that all is done perfectly and right. When the service proceeds, we all have pleasure in it as under the hand of the Lord.

H.W.R. Do the sisters have part in this, or does it refer only to what is audible and therefore the service of the brothers?

J.T. In singing the sisters' voices afford them an outlet, and possibly they use their voices better than brothers. They are instruments of music, "which I made", said David -- none should be silent.

H.W. The Lord provides what is poured out, through the sisters as well as the brothers.

J.T. Yet the person is being used; there is great need of usability as in the divine system. We are not to be silent.

A.G. The cup at the Lord's supper has a stimulating effect in connection with the pouring out. In Corinthians we are all made to drink into one Spirit. In John 4 the Lord directed the woman of Samaria; He gives the water, but it has to be drunk. We often sing 'One spirit, glorious Lord' as we are stimulated by His love. The cup is an allusion to the Spirit.

C.M.M. What would be the meaning of the four different kinds of vessels referred to in Exodus 25, the cups, dishes, goblets, bowls?

J.T. It is a question of variety, such as should be seen in the assembly. There is resemblance with us all, as being according to the grace given by Him, like Christ, but there is variety; all are made of gold. The use of gold alludes to the state of righteousness before God.

W.O.S. All are made serviceable for pouring out. David's mighty men brought the water to David and he poured it out before the Lord. No vessels are mentioned there (1 Chronicles 11:17 - 19).

J.T. Yes. The water poured out represented those three men, what they were before God. They sacrificed their lives for David. His action showed how he viewed it and hence their place among the mighty.

J.H.H. Is there significance in the table being portable?

J.T. The whole tabernacle was portable. We have to do with the true tabernacle which the Lord has pitched and not man, but things are portable now. The wilderness position is always movable, and we are to be ready to move, we are not to be stationary. Solomon's system involved what was stationary and suggested millennial conditions. It was a fixed matter, but not so under Moses; everything then was movable. It was a question of vessels for pouring out, the kind that had to be made, and were made in perfect order. The waggons in Numbers 7 teach us that all these things had to be moved. If they were heavy, the Levites who carried them had waggons. Certain Levites carried the boards and the coverings, which were heavy things, so they had waggons, but the Kohathites had no waggons. The precious things, the golden things, which point to Christ or the things that are like Christ or of Christ, were carried by the Kohathites on their shoulders, and that is why they were provided with staves; they were for them, that their burdens might be carried on their shoulders. I think it suggests for us what is most valuable, hence what needs to be most protected.

J.H.H. Is it in any way linked with Revelation 21, "the tabernacle of God is with men"?

J.T. I think that shows that it is not the Solomonic character of things in Revelation, but the Davidic. David is in the mind of the Spirit in Revelation. He is alluded to in what we read in Isaiah 22. It appears that Revelation is in mind, therefore in the address to Philadelphia mention is made of the key of David. Then again in Revelation 22 Christ is said to be the Root and Offspring of David. So that Revelation has in mind the tabernacle idea, I would say that it is the movable thought, and I suppose our position in heaven eternally will be a movable one. We shall not be fixed.

P.L. Our environment will be marked by the flexibility of love. Love cannot be static; it is marked by agility too.

J.T. Quite so. The gospel of John contemplates 'the hind of the morning', corresponding with the title of Psalm 22. All that you speak of is involved in the service of God as we are now speaking of it. The feminine thought is seen in the beginning of Psalm 22. Mary of Magdalene would be a suggestion of the hind of the morning, and what the feminine thought as taken on by the saints, is for Christ. There is agility as we were saying; flexibility and agility, both the result of our being affected by Christ Himself. Things are done in an orderly sense, but done quickly with agility, so that the most possible is procured for God.

H.W.R. There is more intimacy in the idea of the tabernacle than of the temple.

J.T. I would say that, because of its movability, whereas in Solomon's system all was fixed.

H.W.R. The eternal state will be marked by intimacy between God and men.

J.T. Just so, God and men, not Jews, or gentiles, but men. The greatness of that order of being is in mind.

J.R. After the loaves were set in order on the table, frankincense was poured upon them. Would these vessels be used to hold the frankincense in view of that?

J.T. No doubt, although that is not recorded in Exodus, but in Leviticus. Exodus deals with the making of the vessels and their usable qualities. In the record given in Exodus we have the number of the kind of vessels. The vessels were formed, and there were four kinds. The loaves in Leviticus were divided into two rows, six in each, as if to suggest administration, and a working together in it, two

sets of six each, side by side. In Exodus too, God's thoughts come out as to intelligence and measure.

C.M.M. Is it right to say that if there is to be a pouring out, there must first be a pouring in of the supply that God gives, according to our spiritual measure? I was thinking of that expression, "the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ".

J.T. I think it would be more drinking in than pouring in. Would it not be like the woman of Samaria to whom the Lord spoke of drinking of the water that He should give?

C.M.M. It comes from the well of water.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. It is a question of drinking.

A.M. Is that involved in the expression in Ephesians 3, "that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God"? At the end of the chapter Paul says, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus". The filling comes first.

J.T. That is filling to all the fulness of God. Ephesians contemplates infinitude, but we are in it in the sense of being filled, not in ourselves, but filled to all the fulness of God. We do not belong to the Deity, we are not part of the Deity, but yet very near it. Of the Lord Himself it is said, "in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell". But that cannot be said about any one of us. It is a wonderful thought to apprehend, but we have to begin with the thought of measure, the breadth and length, and depth and height, and then know the love of Christ which passes knowledge. The fulness of God is not measurable. It is, I believe, an allusion to the eternal condition. We are in that which is fulness but when we come on to the fulness of God, we come to infinitude.

H.W. What you speak of is expressed in Christ in whom God has come into expression.

J.T. Quite so. It is a question too of breadth and length and depth and height, without saying of what. Even the love of Christ is spoken of as that which passes knowledge. Creature measure is to be known but the love of Christ passes knowledge. You cannot limit the fulness of God either, for it passes knowledge.

H.W. Would you connect it in any way with what the Lord Jesus said, "My Father and your Father ... my God and your God"?

J.T. It is very near to that. The Lord brings us into the same kind of love that He has as Man according to John 17:26, the same sort of relation that He has. And so in John 20 it is first "my Father and your Father", and then "my God and your God".

J.H.H. Does what you are saying mean that our full ability to understand is reached now?

J.T. It certainly is. The present is the educational time. We are soon coming to the fixed time in the sense of formation, but we are not in it yet. We are all in the educational time, and we are to know the love of Christ that passes knowledge, and at the same time we are to know the breadth and length and depth and height, the full measure of what has come out in Christ in the christian economy.

Ques. Is He getting glory in the assembly now from our present knowledge?

J.T. I think He is. The first day of the week introduces the final glory. In that sense there is what is going on now, what is current in the saints throughout the whole world. Christ being the divine Operator, and the saints being the vessels of the operations, what is going on in us and among us at the present time, especially on the first day of the week, the supreme day of the week, brings out the glory. The Lord Jesus is referred to in Psalm 19

as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoicing as a strong man to run a race. That is what is going on every Lord's day in a universal way. So the question is whether we are in this thing and learning in it. It is the educational time, too, as well as the time of joy. It is the Bridegroom's time; He is coming out of His chamber and rejoicing as a strong man.

P.L. "From the rising of the sun even unto its setting my name shall be great among the nations", Malachi 1:11.

H.W.R. Should we have a sense of the Bridegroom on Lord's day morning?

J.T. I think so. We shall not go home in any right or satisfied way unless we do. We have to do with the Bridegroom. John spoke of the Bridegroom, as having joy in hearing His voice. It is the time of hearing His voice.

H.W. That would involve the peculiar joy that enters into the occasion for the Lord Himself.

J.T. That is what, I have thought, is the joy that was set before Him. That is the time we are in. It was anticipated in the days of His flesh here, but for the joy that was set before Him in the days of His flesh. He endured the cross and despised the shame, and is now set down at the right hand of God. What was the joy that was set before Him? He endured the cross in view of that; He has come into it now and we will come into it too.

H.W.R. If there is a Bridegroom there must be a bride.

J.T. John the baptist did not say anything about her, but Scripture says much about her; the bride is the assembly.

H.W.R. If we are conscious of the Bridegroom on the Lord's day morning we are conscious of having part in the bride.

J.T. Just so.

GOD KNOWN AS GREATER THAN ALL

1 John 3:19 - 24; 1 John 4:1 - 10

J.T. It is not in mind to confine ourselves to these scriptures, but to call attention to John's ministry and its peculiar character. The Lord spoke of John and his service in an indefinite and mysterious way in view of the dispensation, leaving the understanding of it open. Answering the inquiry of Peter as to John, the Lord said to him, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me", John 21:22. If John should remain it would be at His pleasure and this was not a matter for Peter specially to concern himself about. We may conclude from what the Lord said, that we are not to concern ourselves specially about any brother who is ministering; it is right, of course, to pray for all and carry the ministers in our hearts, yet they are the Lord's ministers and they stand or fall at His pleasure; so the Lord says of John, that it was not specially a matter for Peter. The Lord had thoughts about John, and the Lord's words would leave the truth open, and suggest that John at least in spirit and character as a servant, was to continue until the Lord comes. With this in mind the thought now is to see that he affords, as indicated in these verses read, the means of victory to the brethren. Even although one may fail, or be wanting in any way the word is, "Hereby we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall persuade our hearts before him -- that if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart". It is thought that each of us should have this in mind that whatever happens, God is greater than the believer's heart and knows all things. If the believer's heart does not condemn him he can be assured that God will answer his prayers, "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness

towards God, and whatsoever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments". There is a certain assurance to us in these passages, that whatever may happen, not that anything wrong should happen, for God has given us the means of avoiding sin and keeping from it, but if we do sin, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness", 1 John 1:9. Then if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things. This is a great matter to keep before us, because we are so apt to give way and to give up, as we say, if something untoward does happen, especially if it is a serious matter.

H.W.R. Is it by keeping His commandments that our heart does not condemn us?

J.T. That is what he says: "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness towards God, and whatsoever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments, and practise the things which are pleasing in his sight".

H.W.R. Almost the same words are used by the Lord Himself in John 14 and 15 as to keeping His commandments, and He says, "Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name he may give you".

J.T. It is a very great matter that we have assurance in that sense, but at the same time, even if our hearts do condemn us, we are to know that God is greater. You are thus maintaining your soul in the good of the knowledge you have of Him, in the good of the knowledge of God that is available, and however much condemnation there may be, we know that God is greater than our heart. Thus we should not become weary, however serious the matters that may happen, because God is God, and He intends to give us victory. He intends to bring us home. If we look at chapter 4 we see how frequently the word 'God' is used throughout; about

thirty times. John and Peter had been diverted from the course of righteousness according to John 21, and they might easily have gone right astray. The Lord did not reprove them at all at first. He called them 'children'.

H.W.R. What is the difference between our hearts condemning us and our conscience condemning us?

J.T. The difference is a matter to be looked into. Conscience came in with sin. We cannot say that the heart came in with sin. God made man with a heart.

C.M.M. How do we persuade our hearts before Him?

J.T. I would say that it is through the knowledge we have of Him. God is pleased to make John available to us for the purpose of showing us the means of knowing God. In his gospel and epistles and in the book of Revelation, John shows us much so that we may avail ourselves of every means of knowing God. So the means of being assured is available to us.

H.W. There is something very comforting in the thought that God knows all things; He is greater than our hearts and knows all things. Each one should delight in that.

J.T. If he has the assurance and he is conversant with Scripture, then he knows how God does things. Even a sparrow does not fall without God, much less anything happen to one of His children. God knows about it.

B.H.T. Is it important to know "that we are of the truth"?

J.T. It is, most important, because it shows the distinctiveness of John's teaching. It shows the distinctiveness of christianity. John shows in his communications, especially in the epistles, that the truth is available to us, and we are to be lovers of the

truth. We are hardly christians at all, unless we love the truth; we might say it is next to loving God.

S.P.S. Would the knowledge of God thus ensure continuity of the truth, despite the weakness?

J.T. Yes, and as having the system also set up in heaven, in Christ as High Priest we have the means of continuing. The book of Hebrews is written to show us that we have the means of continuing in the truth. The system that God has set up in heaven in Christ furnishes us with all that is needed, not only as to instruction, but with the sympathy of Christ, the sympathy of the brethren too. It is not a small matter that the brethren are sympathetic with each other and so if one is taken in sin, or in some fault, it is said, "Ye who are spiritual restore such a one". It is not said, 'If you can'. It is a direct command, it is an obligation put upon us to restore such a one. To restore here means that he is to be set up as he was before. If he was a good brother, a useful brother, then he is to be set up in that usefulness whatever it was. The word 'restore' there means or implies that.

H.W. In that word in Galatians 6, "if even a man be taken in some fault", the apostle seems to call attention to a matter that might arise, that might be considered very serious indeed; but there is forgiveness possible.

J.T. We have often noticed that it is not overtaken, but taken in it. The woman in John 8 was taken in a fault. Even if it be so, then restoration is possible, and we might say imperative. It is the business of the brethren to see to it that he is restored.

W.S. While we know that we are of the truth and persuade our hearts before Him, yet if our hearts condemn us and communion has been marred, is the outlet that God is greater and knows all things?

J.T. God is surely not any less than any ordinary christian, and such a one would normally do what he could for another christian, and God has shown us that He is not behind in that sense. He is greater than our hearts. He knows our hearts, but He is not condemning them with the rod. He is saying that He is greater, which is a very comforting thought. If there is any condemnation, our hearts condemning us, He knows about it.

P.L. Would John's reference to finality in the tabernacle of God with men show how God has risen above all evil to assure His thoughts of love in finality? Would that encourage every heart?

J.T. He has confidence in man in an abstract way. We cannot say that the tabernacle of God is with men as they are now, many of them wicked. It is a final thought and brings out what God is in Himself. The tabernacle of God is with men, not with angels or with any other being; but with men.

C.deK.F. Would the ordinary christian you spoke of just now be marked by spiritual judgment? John also says, "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things".

J.T. That is a parallel thought, amplifying what we have been saying. The word 'unction' there is not the word generally used for the Holy Spirit, but refers to the effect of the possession of the Spirit, the peculiar effect of the Holy Spirit indwelling us, and it affords knowledge of everything. The man in Mark 8 who had the second touch from the Lord saw all things clearly, but this in John's epistle goes beyond that, for it says that we know all things. Seeing all things clearly would mean that he would, so to speak, have a clear view of the landscape, so that he would not call a man a tree or a tree a man. He would see things clearly and call them by right names, but then the epistle of John implies that we know all things by the power of the unction, so that

we have to seek to find out what the word 'unction' means and the force of it in the christian. No others have it but christians, not necessarily those who say they believe, but those who are really christians in the true sense of the word, those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

W.S.S. Is the thought here to establish the hearts of the saints, notwithstanding the weakness which may be with us, in the knowledge that God is greater than our heart and knows all things?

J.T. The weakness around us is appalling, but then the heart of the real christian may be condemning him. There must be some cause for it in his own conscience or his own heart, but then the comforting thought is that God knows, that God is greater than our heart. It is a very remarkable thing, that that should be said of God at this point, that God is greater than our heart; the word is in the singular.

P.L. Is this illustrated in David in 2 Samuel 7? He goes in and sits before God and speaks of Him as "that God" and in various ways does he resort to God as greater than his heart?

J.T. Quite so, and if we think of Nathan there, while he was a great prophet and a sympathetic prophet too, yet Nathan was not up to the mark at that time. He says to David, "Go, do all that is in thy heart; for Jehovah is with thee". Well, how did he know the Lord was with David in the matter? To say even as to a man like David that the Lord was always with him, was not necessarily right, for God has to say to David that he was not the man in His counsels; David's son was the man in the counsels of God. Although David has a unique place eternally with God, yet God does not imply all that Nathan would imply as to David. Nathan should have known too that Solomon was chosen by Jehovah, but he does not say that. He says to David "Go, do all that is in thy heart; for Jehovah is with

thee". Jehovah presently speaks about other things, and another person than David, and that was Solomon, and that he should build God's house. Nathan did not have in his mind the great thought of sonship. As Nathan thought this over his heart might condemn him, but God and His thought were greater.

L.E.W. Does the condemnation come in as regards our failing in love? He says in verse 19, "Children, let us not love with word, nor with tongue, but in deed and in truth".

J.T. The question of failing here is secondary really. If our heart condemn us, there must be some cause for it, but the point is that even that is an opportunity for us to be established in the knowledge of God. Even though the heart may condemn I am acquiring the knowledge of God. That is the great point that has been on one's mind, that the brethren should be established in the knowledge of God.

H.W. So that the saints are maintained. John would have in mind that the saints would be maintained in victory to the end.

J.T. Now passing on to verse 24 of chapter 3, John says, "He that keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us". Then chapter 4, verse 4, "Ye are of God, children, and have overcome them, because greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world". Here now we have another thought as to God: that He is greater as in us than he that is in the world. God is greater as in the christian, and so the christian is constituted greater than he that is in the world. The point is, that the greatness is in the christian. The Person who is in the christian is greater than he that is in the world.

H.W.R. Does that refer to the Holy Spirit being in us?

J.T. I think so, but the general thought in the passage is that it is God. It is a question of God and that God in the christian.

H.W.R. He that is in the world is Satan, I suppose.

J.T. Yes. The spirit of the world is Satan. The passage is to show us where the greatness is. It is in God, of course, as stated in the first verse, but then it is the Person who is in the christian, and as there He is greater than he that is in the world. It is quite obvious that God is greater than the christian and greater than the christian's heart, but John says that He is greater as being in the christian than he that is in the world; that is, God Himself inhabiting the christian is greater than he that is in the world. It is not simply that God is in heaven, and that He has raised Christ from the dead, but that in the christian He is greater than he that is in the world.

D.M.S. It is very encouraging to think that God is here in spite of the conditions.

J.T. That God has a people here too in whom He resides, and He is greater as in that residence than he that is in the world. The devil and all that he can muster, the Alexanders, the Napoleons and the Hitlers, if they were all put into one, would not be as great as God in the christian.

C.M.M. Would our walking in the light of this strengthen our position collectively, resulting in it being testified that God is among you of a truth?

J.T. Yes -- "in you of a truth".

W.S. Would you say that recovery from self-condemnation sets us in relation to God and His things, and we see that the things we are linked with are far greater than what obtains in the world?

J.T. That is the thing, so that as we think of this town and the christians in it we think of God in relation to them. God is saying that they are all

His and that He is greater than he that is in the world, not only in Himself, but as in these christians. That is a great matter for God, that He has such people in this city.

C.deK.F. Why is ministry so often ineffective with those around? Here John says, "He that knows God hears us".

J.T. That brings out what apostolic ministry was; the "us" refers to the apostles. It could hardly be said of christians generally.

F.A.C. Paul says, "When I am weak, then am I strong".

J.T. He says, "I have strength for all things in him that gives me power". Whatever anyone might think of him he was conscious that he could do all things by Christ who gave him power. The Lord sent him a thorn for the flesh, and he besought the Lord three times that it should be removed, but He said, "My grace suffices thee", and therefore Paul says, "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities". He may be regarded as weak in that sense, but he says he can glory in his infirmities, that the power of Christ should rest upon him, so that there was no possibility of overcoming Paul.

H.W. Does John's ministry have particularly in mind spiritual formation in the saints; that is, the subjective side of the truth?

J.T. I would think that. He begins his epistle with "That which was from the beginning". He does not say, 'He who', but "That which". He speaks of Christ, but of the life manifested in Him as Man here. That life was from the beginning of christianity, and the whole epistle works out the idea of life and of what is in the fellowship that belongs to christianity. John says of the apostles, "We are of God". He also says, as referring to the apostles, "Our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ". He says "our fellowship".

That is something to have in mind. It was a question of "That which was from the beginning", and then he moves on to the thought of the fellowship in which this testimony from the beginning was preserved. The apostles' fellowship was with the Father and with His Son; that was something particular to the twelve apostles. When John says, "He that knows God hears us", he refers to apostolic ministry which has peculiar power. As in the testimony the twelve were linked up together with the Father and the Son, so there is no possibility of overcoming the fellowship. The apostles had a fellowship of their own. Many may not follow or understand this, but it remains a fact; it was a fellowship of their own, and it was with the Father and the Son.

A.M. Does the thought of children have in mind that the character of God is seen in them?

J.T. There are the persons that John designates as his children even as the Lord did Himself when here. The Lord speaks of the saints as children, which would be the point in the title in Isaiah 9, "The everlasting Father". The apostle John had the same privilege in measure, and so did Paul, of designating the saints as children. Children of God are specially referred to in chapter 3: 2; "Now are we children of God". The apostles had a peculiar place, and they had the right and privilege to address the saints as children. None of us would assume to do that now.

L.E.W. The thought of children suggests moral likeness.

J.T. It would be so whether it be the children of God, or whether it be the children of one of the apostles. The fullest thought as to children is in John 1, that we have the right to take the place of children of God. "As many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God". We have

that liberty, God gives it to us, and that dignifies us peculiarly.

L.E.W. I refer to the verse, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham". It was moral likeness.

J.T. That is right. The words "children of Israel" would also carry that thought.

W.J.S. The sense of the greatness of God, and His knowing all things, and that He is greater in us than he that is in the world, would stabilise our hearts to go on in days like the present.

J.T. The word 'stabilising' is good. Our hearts need it.

B.H.T. Largely it is to establish us against the spirit of antichrist.

J.T. Surely. There are many antichrists, but the antichrist is mentioned specifically by John as if we are to be awakened to the fact that he is nearby, perhaps living in the world already. There is plenty of denying the Father and the Son. It is to warn us of the character of the times; not simply that there are many antichrists characteristically, but there is the antichrist.

B.H.T. The great thought against that is, that here "now are we children of God"; and "Ye are of God, children, and have overcome them".

J.T. Just so.

W.S. The great test for us is whether we are really walking in the fellowship, or are walking in darkness. If we say that we are in the light and yet walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.

J.T. That passage is very forceful.

A.P. What is meant by chapter 3: 6, "Whoever abides in him, does not sin, whoever sins, has not seen him or known him"?

J.T. It is what is called an abstract truth which is perhaps little understood, but we can never understand John's epistle unless we understand abstract

truth. "Whoever abides in him, does not sin", is abstract, but then it has a concrete side, and is applicable to christians having the Spirit who walk in the Spirit. Such abide in Christ even as the earth abides in the sun. To abide in Christ is to walk in the truth, to walk as He walked. We cannot deny that if we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves, but there is this verse that "Whoever abides in him, does not sin". That is for us to weigh over. It is abstract truth, and applicable to christians under certain conditions.

A.M. It is said of Israel that God "hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen wrong in Israel", Numbers 23:21. That would be abstract, would it not? It is how God saw them.

J.T. Just so. God can say that; He can look at things as He pleases at any time. God has a right to shut out certain things at any time and only look at certain other things and speak of them accordingly.

Ques. Referring again to the children and the fellowship of the apostles, and the apostles' doctrine, does all this serve to emphasise the way in which christianity has been established, and what it is as of God in the world?

J.T. Yes; what it was at the inauguration. What men the apostles were! What power there was in them! There were twelve appointed by the Lord, and when, through the fall of Judas, another had to be chosen, heaven endorsed the choice.

P.L. Would the heavenly city manifest in the foundations what men they were; what they were intrinsically?

J.T. That is good. The description is given in Revelation 21. The names are given in precious stones. Every precious stone indicates an apostle. The precious stones would mean new creation intrinsically. They represent in the highest way what is of God in His creation.

W.S.S. "He that knows God hears us", in chapter 4: 6, raises the question with us as to our recognition of the apostolic ministry at the present time.

J.T. Yes. How the apostles adorned the system! Others were added, but even Paul is not mentioned in the list we have in Revelation 21, which brings out the adornment these men afforded by what they were.

P.L. They were the foundations of the glorious structure in Ephesians 2.

J.T. Quite so. We should look at the whole of Revelation 21 and what it contains in the sense of apostolic quality and how the assembly is bound up with that.

J.H. Can we have a little help on proving the spirits?

J.T. The word is, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, if they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world". So that we have to do with a spiritual realm even in the bad sense, and we are to prove what is of God. The apostle says, "Hereby ye know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses Jesus Christ come in flesh is of God; and every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that power of the antichrist, of which ye have heard that it comes, and now it is already in the world". That refers to the power of the antichrist, it is already here. We might name certain things, or persons in that sense, that have been proved antichristian, and it is very important to be able to look at things of that kind and name them. This chapter is intended to help us to name what is of the world and what is of God, and it is a question not now of physical conditions, but of spiritual conditions; what men are spiritually, even bad men.

C.M.M. Would the expression, "Jesus Christ come in flesh", involve both His humanity and His deity?

J.T. Yes, it is a Man of that kind, One come in flesh. Luke would help us to understand that. Luke says, "That holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". The expression "that holy thing" shows that the Lord Jesus was intrinsically holy from the very outset, from His birth.

H.J.R. It does not say here that the truth is denied; it is not confessed.

J.T. Confessing is important. It is not that I am merely saying things verbally, but it is characteristic of me that I confess. Confession has a great place in Scripture.

H.W. Does it involve that the one who so confesses is marked by the features of that order of man, Jesus Christ, and that he is descriptive of it livingly as well as in what he says?

J.T. That is so. The confession of it is a matter of testimony. We say the things, not only verbally, but by what we are in all our relations. The confession of this Person means that He is my ideal spiritually. He is a wonderful Person, a Person to be worshipped.

C.M.M. Would both the proving and the confession show that it is incumbent upon us to move in the matter and to be aggressive?

J.T. It is so.

P.L. Is the non-confession a proof that one has come under the power of the antichrist?

J.T. The word is "every spirit which does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God: and this is that power of the antichrist". The person who does not confess "Jesus Christ come in flesh" would range himself alongside what is of the antichrist. As a non-confessor he is building up what

is of such a power; it is seen in the matter of associations, unions and such like.

Ques. What is the import of "Jesus Christ come in flesh"?

J.T. It is not simply that He has been alive, but that He has come in flesh. Paul tells us that prior to the incarnation He was "in the form of God". He was not then in flesh, but as incarnate He partook of flesh and blood. That He has come means that it was His own act, that of a divine Person. He came into flesh, into that condition. It is a very full thought. The word "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son a propitiation for our sins", involves Jesus Christ come in flesh.

P.L. "Ye ... shall die in your sin" (John 8:21) was said to such as refused to accept who He was.

J.T. Quite so.

H.J.R. Is the antichrist marked by an aggressive denial of Jesus Christ or by refraining from the confession?

J.T. It is more than the negative non-confessing which characterises the man who is called the antichrist. "He is the antichrist who denies the Father and the Son". That is positive, and that is the thing actually. Everyone that is doing that belongs to antichrist. He is of that spirit.

Ques. Does it manifest itself in hatred of Jesus Christ and those who belong to Him?

J.T. Well, the spirit of antichrist is seen in the negative attitude assumed; he is not confessing Jesus Christ come in flesh, which means that the whole truth of christianity is involved. John says, "We have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son as Saviour of the world". That is what we get as a result of "Jesus Christ come in flesh".

P.L. The enemies of the cross are ranged against "Jesus Christ come in flesh". In John 14 the stability

of the system of christianity is seen in this great Person going to the Father.

J.T. Yes. "Ye believe on God, believe also on me". The Lord Jesus is there presented as an object of faith, and it is a public matter that we are believers on Christ.

READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (1)

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 31

J.T. The Lord has been calling attention to the epistles to Corinth, and it is thought that we should have something to say while together at these meetings as to them. The local idea attaches to the first epistle, hence it begins, "Paul, a called apostle of Jesus Christ, by God's will, and Sosthenes the brother, to the assembly of God which is in Corinth". Attention is here called to the fact that it is to the assembly of God which is in Corinth; that is to say, the assembly of God in a locality is addressed. It is the local character of the assembly. Following that attention is to be called to what is said in chapter 14, verse 23, where the whole assembly is spoken of as coming together in one place. We have before us in that the thought of the local assembly, even although there might be a hundred gatherings in the assembly in that city, or fifty, or twenty-five. The local idea is still stressed, although in chapter 14 emphasis is laid upon the whole assembly in the locality coming together, however many or few, for ministry. They come together at the same time and place.

So that when we come to Durban, it is a question now of how many there are. Perhaps we will never have all the saints in Durban together at any one time, for we are in remnant times, and we have to accept the public departure of many. Yet although we may be relatively few and there are only two or three gatherings in a place, all the saints there are supposed to be together in one place for the purpose of ministry, according to 1 Corinthians 14:23. This is very important, because it brings out, in the saints all together in one place at a particular time, what God has before Him in a place, the whole idea as to the assembly that God has in His mind.

Then it is thought that we should see that the first nine verses of our chapter have an abstract character, that is to say, the saints at Corinth as viewed abstractly as being possessed of certain things, as it says, "I thank my God always about you, in respect of the grace of God given to you in Christ Jesus; that in everything ye have been enriched in him, in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge, (according as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you), so that ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ". That is what has to be called abstract, because the Corinthian saints were not actually as intelligent as is said here. You would almost assume that there was nothing at all missing, but it was not so. These are abstract thoughts, and God is speaking through the apostle of the truth in this epistle from His own point of view, and telling the Corinthians that there is nothing left out from His point of view, and it is a question of their finding it out in due time. Two epistles are written, so that the saints should know everything required to furnish them in their local position as God's assembly. That is why it has to be called abstract, because everything was not really true of the Corinthians in the fullest sense; they had to be taught. That is what I thought ought to be before our minds, so that we might see what God has in His mind for us in view of what is available in the assembly for the general service of God.

F.J.F. Do you think that it is a great advantage to have more than one gathering in a city?

J.T. Well, I think it is. If there are enough for more than one, I think that it is a great advantage. Paul says, in chapter 11, verse 18, "When ye come together in assembly": the article is left out before the word "assembly" because it is to bring out the general character of their coming together. No matter how many there are, they are all together in assembly,

the idea of being "in assembly" showing the character of the occasion.

A.W.P. Would the first nine verses refer to the work of God in its perfection, which will never break down, looked at apart from failure?

J.T. Quite so. That is what I am endeavouring to convey in the word abstract, for in God's mind the whole matter is there.

F.J.F. Is that true as regards the saints in Corinth as having the Spirit?

J.T. It is. The fact that they had the Spirit is the great point, and it could be developed, so that in time they would come to everything conveyed in the apostle's words, "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened" (chapter 5: 7) is another abstract statement. Viewing the saints from the divine side, they are unleavened.

W.S.S. I suppose you would say that it is vitally important that we should have the abstract idea before us if we are to move at all according to the thoughts of God.

J.T. That is what I was thinking. We are so inclined to have before us the broken conditions in Christendom, and work from that, so to speak, instead of working from the abstract thought. We have failure at Corinth, and the brethren might well have been engaged and occupied with the failure.

W.S.S. We have failure in Christendom around us, and we might take our bearings from that, and say that anything is good enough. What struck me from what you have been saying is that if the abstract thought is before us, then we are helped to move in the light of it and in the truth of it.

J.T. Just so. The Spirit is here to bring out the truth of it. Hence chapter 14 is, as I said, a question of ministry, and we have the order of ministry and persons who are to minister. Gifts are in mind, as it is said here, "Ye come behind in no gift". It is

how one is to minister in view of this. That is, there is no defect from the divine side, but the thing has to be worked out.

W.S.S. So it says, "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called". If we move in the light of that do we find out practically what the abstract position is?

J.T. That is what our Bible readings are for, and, of course, our private readings too; but I am afraid many just leave their education to the public meetings, whereas private reading and the study of Scripture are essential to every one of us.

F.J.F. Do you mean in view of the assembly?

J.T. The assembly, of course, is the temple of God. We shall come to that, and see what is available for us when the saints, the whole assembly, come together at the same time. We have to study Scripture and pray about it, and ruminate, so that the thing becomes part of us.

P.J.T.F. What are the limits of the fellowship of His Son?

J.T. It is the full idea of fellowship. In chapter 10 the fellowship is that of Christ's death, but in the first chapter of this epistle Paul introduces the thought of the faithfulness of God in regard to fellowship. We have these references to the faithfulness of God on which we may count in regard of the fellowship, the first here in chapter 1, the second in chapter 10. There is a third in the second epistle, which stands related to Paul's service (2 Corinthians 1:18).

H.W. Will you tell us why that is so emphasised in reference to the Corinthians?

J.T. I think God intended the Corinthian epistles to be basic and universal in their bearing. The thought of fellowship is stressed in them, because we have to carry through every day in the week in regard of the testimony. On the first day of the week we have the Lord's supper, and all that enters into it, but the idea of the fellowship is to govern us as we

carry through throughout the whole week when we do not see each other, and we are not together all the time; therefore it is a question of reliability in each of us, that we are faithful and true to one another, true to God, true to Christ, true to the Spirit, but true to one another too.

J.H.T. Can fellowship be understood according to the Lord's mind unless we have the full knowledge of God's Son, Jesus Christ our Lord?

J.T. It is in chapter 10 that this is stressed. It is not exactly when we are together, but when we are not together; that is to say, when we are not under each other's eye. We are to have that confidence one in another, and each has to be true to the truth in order that the fellowship should be maintained. Another thing comes out in verse 10 of the chapter, which refers to the practical state of things amongst the Corinthians, and in regard to which he had to exhort them, "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all say the same thing, and that there be not among you divisions; but that ye be perfectly united in the same mind and in the same opinion. For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of the house of Chloe, that there are strifes among you". We now come down to the actual facts of the conditions at Corinth; there was division amongst them. The apostle immediately deals with that matter. There were many other such things, but the question of division was at once spoken about. In the verse spoken of in chapter 11 we are told, "there must also be sects". It is said, "I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it. For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you" (verses 18, 19). Well these are serious conditions, not at all in keeping with what is alluded to in the first nine verses.

W.S.S. It would appear that the divisions were due to the following of persons. Is that always a danger?

J.T. Party leaders. Paul has to say that he and Apollos were regarded amongst them as leaders in that sense. Undoubtedly he alluded to party conditions, local conditions, for it is said, "Now these things, brethren, I have transferred, in their application, to myself and Apollos, for your sakes, that ye may learn in us the lesson of not letting your thoughts go above what is written, that ye may not be puffed up one for such a one against another". That is to make clear that there were party conditions locally, and Paul has to transfer these thoughts to himself and Apollos, in order that they should know them.

R.J.D. Why does it add, "That the approved may become manifest among you"?

J.T. That was the point. As the second letter would show, there were very bad conditions: in chapter 12: 20, 21. Paul speaks of the conditions, and names the evil that was amongst them, but he said that he had reserved dealing with those bad conditions until the general state of the saints had come to this, that he could say, "Your obedience shall have been fulfilled" (chapter 10: 6). He was aiming at bringing about obedience among them in a general way, and he could then deal with the bad conditions, so that the point was to bring out the approved, and to support them, and then in due time to deal with what is not approved. There could not be an assembly at all unless there are some approved ones, and, undoubtedly the main number were approved, only that the party conditions amongst them were damaging them terribly. There are references to disputes, but there should be no debates in the christian assembly. It is to be a place where we are learning the truth in all subjection to one another. Opposition is abnormal.

The next part of the chapter is to bring out Paul's own services. "For Christ has not sent me to baptise, but to preach glad tidings; not in wisdom of word, that the cross of the Christ may not be made vain. For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but to us that are saved it is God's power. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and set aside the understanding of the understanding ones. Where is the wise? where scribe? where disputer of this world? has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom has not known God. God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe". Here is a reference to those who are spoken of as disputers. "Where is the wise? where scribe? where disputer of this world?" meaning that there should not be anything of this kind in the christian assembly. There should be no debates, no disputations. It is a question of the temple of God, where we should be learning the truth in holy subjection one to another. Here we have reference to what characterises parliaments and that sort of thing, where we hear about the King's opposition, that is to say, normal opposition, whereas, in the assembly of God, it is abnormal and wrong. No such thing is to be allowed as opposition or disputations, or each saying what he wishes. It is a question of the temple of God, and what is suitable in it.

F.J.F. What belongs to christendom and its opposition are not to exist in the assembly, which should be in direct contrast to all that is found outside.

J.T. That is the idea. Hence disputing and differences of opinion are simply out of the question in the assembly. The assembly of God is something that God has here as a rebuke to all men, because His assembly is a united assembly. The Spirit of God is there, and there is no such thought as one having one

opinion and another one having another. We are to be of one mind.

P.L. "If anyone speak -- as oracles of God", 1 Peter 4:11.

J.T. Quite so.

F.J.F. That would be the practical effect of having the one Spirit?

J.T. Just so; and the Spirit of God is here to effect that.

W.S.S. In Exodus, which corresponds with Corinthians, every detail was to be "as the Lord commanded Moses". That would give it to us in principle?

J.T. There was to be nothing different. Exodus brings out the idea, in type, of Christ, because Christ was the Pattern. The word "pattern" is used, and everything must go by that pattern, and so, in the assembly of God, all refers to Christ and the Spirit of God, of course, working in the saints, in order to bring about what is of Christ.

S.P.S. It is in that way that all come to the same mind and the same opinion.

J.T. Just so.

F.J.F. Would you say that that would be seen in the care meetings?

J.T. Just so. There should never be division in matters. We come together in subjection to the Lord of course, but in subjection one to another. We are enjoined to be subject one to another. In order to get the thought in the chapter, reference should be made to this matter of wisdom, and what we were saying about disputations is important negatively, that when we come together we are there to learn one from another, and the Spirit of God is ready to help us in that, for He adds His help to our weaknesses, so that there might be unity. So it says: "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom has not known God, God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe. Since Jews

indeed ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews an offence, and to nations foolishness; but to those that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ God's power and God's wisdom. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men". Wonderful things are stated here. We marvel that God is pleased to come down to speak about His weakness, but it is to show that what is of God is always superior.

P.L. Would the weakness of God lie in the character of the instruments He selects to use, such as Paul; "I was with you in weakness"?

J.T. Quite so. In fact they said, "his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible" (2 Corinthians 10:10), but still people were being converted all round him.

Then another thing is that these very things would be despised by the natural man, by the Greek. It is said that "God has chosen the foolish things of the world, that he may put to shame the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world, that he may put to shame the strong things; and the ignoble things of the world, and the despised, has God chosen, and things that are not, that he may annul the things that are; so that no flesh should boast before God".

F.J.F. In the cross there is a clearance of the man who offended God, and all that he stands for.

J.T. What man regards of great importance. God despises, whereas what God regards of supreme importance, man despises; and therefore the final word is, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption; that according as it is written, He that boasts, let him boast in the Lord". Everything is secured in Christ. What we had in the first nine verses is seen here again

in practical bearing, that is to say, "of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". We have everything in Christ, in a practical sense. He is made unto us all these things.

W.S.S. Would you say that what is of God here would always be marked outwardly by weakness?

J.T. I would think that. If anyone seem to be more than that he has to challenge himself as to whether he is not indulging, because it is a question of being weak and then being strong. It is not what one acquires in the universities or in the schools; it is a question of what one acquires as with God, not indeed that we do not need to learn to read and write, and to learn many things, but still it is what we are made in Christ Jesus that is the point.

W.S.S. Does it work out in the apostle in taking matters up with the Corinthians? He takes the place of weakness, and his ministry on that basis is effective, through God's power, it would seem.

J.T. Well, you can see that in the second epistle (chapter 12, verse 7), where he says he had been in the third heaven, and after that he had been given a thorn for the flesh (not a thorn in the flesh, but for the flesh), It was something to check the flesh, and he asked the Lord three times to remove it, and the Lord did not remove it, but He says, "My grace suffices thee". Paul had to learn the meaning of the thorn, that the flesh profits nothing. It was for the flesh; and therefore he says, "Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me". That is how learning is reached.

F.J.F. Does he summarise the epistle in verse 30? There is what he is going to speak of later, wisdom in the temple, righteousness, the kingdom, holiness, and so on, and redemption in chapter 15, including the body.

J.T. Very good. Every chapter is in order to bring out these things in a practical way amongst the Corinthians. The Corinthians seem to have been taken up particularly by the Lord, by God too, to work out the truth, especially assembly order and the service of God, and so much time is devoted to them. Therefore the Lord says to Paul, "Fear not ... because I am with thee ... I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10. He was there eighteen months to bring out the truth in Corinth, and that is why there is so much in it that is needed at the present time, and it is proposed that we should learn the truth governing the service of God in the assembly. It is a question of what is in the assembly, and the assembly of God at Corinth is the pattern.

C.M.M. Would you say a word about the expression, "in Christ Jesus"?

J.T. Well, I think it is a question of power. The preposition "in" is meant to convey the thought of power, "of him are ye in Christ Jesus". The saints are viewed as placed in Christ Jesus by God. The truth was worked out in them, not simply as so many units in themselves, but as in Christ; all viewed as in Christ Jesus.

W.S.S. There is no weakness there.

J.T. Well that is the idea of the preposition, I think. There is no weakness at all there, it strengthens in a spiritual sense.

E.A.W. Do we hold what is abstract in our minds, and work on until we see it answered to amongst the saints?

J.T. Quite so, and that is exactly what Paul is characterised by, the great skill and care he used to bring the truth to the saints, and nowhere is this seen more than in the epistle to Corinth. In the epistle to Ephesus he says, "Whereby ... ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery" (Ephesians 3:4); that is to say, there was so much he knew, and the

abstract would agree with that. There was someone who knew, and God has always someone, here and there, whom He can use to bring out the truth to all who are local.

W.S.S. The household of Chloe were not satisfied with what was merely abstract. While we have the abstract in mind, we are not satisfied until we see the thing working out practically. The household of Chloe wanted to see the truth worked out substantially in Corinth.

J.T. Hence it says, "If any one speak -- as oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11), not merely speaking, but speaking as oracles of God.

W.S.S. You mean not merely as knowing the Scriptures, but having things substantially?

J.T. Quite so. I think John's gospel was intended to furnish all this, and to weave it with Paul's doctrine, because so much is there made of instruction, hence the Lord is called "Rabbi", or "Teacher". "Rabbi, where abidest thou?" The first two who followed Jesus had that in their minds, and Mary Magdalene in chapter 20 calls the Lord "Rabboni", that is to say, 'My Teacher'. So that we do not speak of a certain one as a great teacher, having great ability, but what is he to me? What am I getting through him? That is what Mary Magdalene meant when she said, 'My Teacher'.

P.L. We are to remember from whom we learn things. Would that be to be sure that the persons are reliable?

J.T. Yes. They had proved themselves to be that, "Knowing of whom thou hast learned them", 2 Timothy 3:14.

C.M.P. Say a little more about "of him are ye in Christ Jesus". One gets the impression that it is linked up with a divine work which makes what is abstract practicable.

J.T. I think "of him are ye in Christ Jesus" would mean that each is set in that position, in the attitude of his mind, and that is the ground we are on. Here in Durban we are on that ground; brothers and sisters are on that ground. God has placed us "in Christ Jesus", and He is made unto us all these things, hence they have to be worked out. Paul says, "Who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". God has placed us in Christ Jesus where these things are, but though He has been made them to us, they have to be worked out, and teaching is for that purpose. Gift is for that purpose.

I believe one of the most important things to keep in our minds, is what gift is meant for. It is not simply what Scripture says in the letter, but what gift teaches. Christ has gone beyond all the heavens, and He received gifts in Man (Psalm 68:18); that is to say, as Man and for man, and they are all with a view to the work of the ministry. He has given "some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers". All are "for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ", Ephesians 4:10 - 12. That is the point of it all, therefore the gifts are essential.

P.L. Does it add lustre to them to see that they are the spoil of the exalted Man?

J.T. That is good. We have already alluded to His "having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this", Acts 2:33. The Spirit brought all the gifts with Him, but Ephesians goes further, and says that Christ has gone beyond all the heavens, and He has received gifts in Man, and then we are told what the persons are; not simply that they have gifts, but that they are gifts. That is the idea in Ephesians. Every

person involved is a gift, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher, these latter being one gift.

F.J.F. And they are irresistible as they are in the power of the Spirit.

J.T. Well that is the idea, that they are beyond anything that man can do or is. They are the gifts that Christ has given from above.

P.L. Irresistible in love. It says, "And falling upon the neck of Paul they ardently kissed him", Acts 20:37.

J.T. Paul went down to Eutychus, and enfolded him in his arms. That was not the exercise of his gift in speaking, but the exercise of his love.

W.S.S. The converse of their ardently kissing Paul, would be the love they had for him, not because of his gift, but what he was personally, would you say?

J.T. Quite so. That is seen in Acts 20; what affection they had for him! It is a great love chapter, for it is love worked out largely in gift. It says, "And having said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. And they all wept sore; and falling upon the neck of Paul they ardently kissed him". It is well to stop at times to ponder the examples that God gives of His work in the early christians. They show what love really was, and it is right to ask whether we can compare it with what there is now amongst us. As far as I can note, I do not recall a time when there was more concern about the truth than there is now, and God is helping. The word "more and more" is the point.

J.H.T. Does boasting "in the Lord" refer to a general attitude, or to a special occasion as when the assembly comes together in one place?

J.T. It is a question of boasting in the Lord. One just wonders whether the brethren understand how the word applies at the present time. We do not want to be boasting in a natural sort of way,

saying that we are a nice number here in Durban, and we are getting on very well. We do not want to be on that line. It is a question of boasting in the Lord. The word 'boast' is a remarkable word in the christian vocabulary.

R.S. Is the thought that the local assembly becomes a witness to all this truth and boasting in the Lord?

J.T. That is right. That is what is meant in chapter 14, that has been alluded to, when the whole assembly comes together in one place, not simply a meeting, but the whole assembly; it is like the "hill of God", 1 Samuel 10:5. The truth that God has in any given place is to be known there. Therefore it is said, "If all prophesy, and some unbeliever or simple person come in, he is convicted of all". It is a simple person, but he has come into the assembly, the christian assembly. He may have been to other assemblies, perhaps Jewish assemblies and pagan assemblies, but when he comes into the christian assembly "he is convicted of all, he is judged of all; the secrets of his heart are manifested, and thus, falling upon his face, he will do homage to God, reporting that God is indeed amongst you". That is a wonderful result.

J.v.R.N. Is that because they are gathered together in the light of what you have been saying about the abstract?

J.T. That is right, and just what I mean.

READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (2)

1 Corinthians 3:1 - 23

J.T. It is thought that we should read the third chapter with a view to speaking of the temple, but also touch on chapter 2. In these epistles to Corinth there is much allusion to Paul himself, to his ministry and to himself generally. It is to be noted because it indicates that he was intended to be a model. We mentioned yesterday that the book of Exodus has in it a suggestion of the pattern, and there was to be no deviation from that pattern. It is thought that the apostle Paul, like the Lord Jesus, is an example of everything as Paul himself says, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ", chapter 11: 1. Paul is not excluding Christ from the idea of pattern, yet Paul, a creature like ourselves, is intended to represent the mind of God in ministry, as well as being an example of christianity or christians. According to Genesis, at that time in the history of man, the speakers, or servants of God were generally left free as to what they might say or do, but in Exodus God is very particular as to pattern, and Moses was responsible as to the pattern, the pattern of the tabernacle shown him on the mount.

Now in view of all this, chapter 2 says "And I, when I came to you, brethren, came not in excellency of word, or wisdom, announcing to you the testimony of God. For I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling; and my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power; that your faith might not stand in men's wisdom, but in God's power". The apostle thus shows us the example

intended to be followed in these epistles, and in a wider sense in the whole assembly at all times. Ministry therefore is to be gauged by what the saints may be in any given place, what their measure may be, what they have already acquired in the sense of knowledge or growth, and so Paul here says that when he came to them, he did not come in excellency of speech, or of words or wisdom, but he says further, "I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". It is a very remarkable thing that a minister, whoever he may be, is not to assume to be beyond the measure of the saints to whom he is ministering. He does not wish to convey to them that he is far beyond them, but rather that he is one of them and would learn with them, but at the same time be an example to them, using skill in this sense.

F.J.F. Would you say that in Genesis there was no established economy regulating men, but in Exodus God establishes His economy, even as today?

J.T. Very good. There is an economy, although it has been sadly departed from; in fact, we might say that the thought of it is given up in general amongst the professing people of God. It is, therefore, all the more needed that those of us who would walk in the truth and follow the Lord as Paul did, should be guided by the example that has been spoken of, the example that Paul sets before us, as he said, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ". So that Christ is still the example here, only He is to be apprehended through Paul. The Lord speaks of him as "an elect vessel to me", Acts 9:15. He had been selected by the Lord for this very purpose, not simply that he should be a christian, but that he should be an example to all christians in regard to the teaching and principles governing christianity and the assembly.

A.W.P. What you are speaking of is referred to in Galatians 3, "To whom, as before your very eyes, Jesus Christ has been portrayed, crucified among you".

J.T. Paul's example, even going so far as to portray Christ crucified, as though He was crucified among them. They had the full thought of christianity set before them, but they were deviating from it, even more than the Corinthians, especially as taking up judaism.

H.W. Would you say these first five verses of chapter 2 give us what is basic, and must remain while what is for the Lord is here? "Jesus Christ, and him crucified" and the Holy Spirit the power of things.

J.T. I think it is well to keep that in mind, because verse 5 says, "that your faith might not stand in men's wisdom, but in God's power". What is current amongst christians generally today is not simply God's wisdom or God's word, or God's principles, but man's, very largely; hence men are sent to college to be ministers; not that there is anything wrong in learning so long as it is under control, and that we are using it for the sake of the truth. The wisdom of the brethren is to keep within the range of the knowledge of any given company or of the brethren generally, so that all should learn together, that the principle of mutual feeling should govern our dealings one with another. The one who serves amongst them can afford to be like them, to get down to the same level so that all should learn together; the principle of mutual feeling should govern our relations one with another. So he says in verse 6 of chapter 2, "We speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who come to nought. But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the

ages for our glory". The full progress of any one in any company is to be recognised, but he would be glad, though the brethren recognise it, to fall in with where they are, and move with them in so far as they can move together in the truth.

P.L. "Ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake", 2 Corinthians 4:5: Would it be in that spirit?

J.T. Just so. We are to be the servants of the saints; not simply the servants of Christ, or the servants of God, but we are the servants of the saints too, which is a very sobering thing to keep before us as ministering.

P.L. "Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas", and so on, "all are yours".

J.T. And then to guard that, to balance it, "Ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's".

F.J.F. Would what you are speaking of be in practice the truth of the body carried out experimentally as we learn together?

J.T. Very good; and so it is, as we hope to come to it in the Lord's supper. We have the word "I speak as to intelligent persons"; that is to say, as partakers of the Lord's supper, as having part in the assembly in principle, we should be intelligent; even although recently converted, we should be intelligent according to measure. As christians we have more wisdom than the angels, in that we have the Holy Spirit and therefore we should be intelligent.

J.P.v.N. Would you say that the Lord Jesus gave us an example when He laid aside His garments and girded Himself with a towel to wash the feet of His disciples?

J.T. Just so. He led the way for them, not as to their teaching but an example generally. We are supposed to serve the saints, to wash their feet, as "servants for Jesus' sake". It is not out of the way for a servant to go to the very lowest point to serve the saints and so the Lord said He was amongst His

own "as the one that serves". Luke 22:27. Paul too worked with his own hands to earn wages in order to be able to give to the saints.

C.M.M. Would the wisdom of chapter 2 and the meat of chapter 3 be what Paul was ministering at Ephesus at that time? Would he be adjusting the truth to suit the Ephesians in that way, and on a lower note the Corinthians?

J.T. Very good, and he says to the Ephesians: "Whereby ... ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery". He wished them to know his knowledge, what his measure was.

P.L. Does this fit into the portion of "meat in due season" as referred to in Psalm 104:27 and Psalm 145:15? The due seasons bear on it.

J.T. The Lord intended that the household, meaning the saints viewed as a household, the assembly, should have meat in due season. The apostle here follows that principle, because he determined to know nothing amongst the Corinthians but Jesus Christ and Him crucified; that is to say, he gauged what they needed. And again in verse 6 of chapter 2, "We speak wisdom among the perfect" and he goes on further to speak about this wisdom; "We speak God's wisdom in a mystery". This is a point for us all to bear in mind, that christianity is not a thing to be understood by everybody, by persons uninstructed or unconverted; it is mysterious, and we are to take on that attitude, as those who are entrusted with the mysteries of God. It seems to me they are available to us, and so, "We speak God's wisdom in a mystery, that hidden wisdom which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory: which none of the princes of this age knew", showing that the most learned people of the world know nothing about these things, and are not able to follow them either, "for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

but according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God". Paul then adds, "But we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual things by spiritual means", In the 'we' of this passage he would include himself particularly as representing the highest feature of instruction, but at the same time, he would lead all the brethren into it, and give them instruction such as they could take in and assimilate.

F.J.F. All the learning of the Greeks would be shut out as one comes into the things of God?

J.T. Just so, because the Greeks seek after wisdom, that is what is of man, what is called the classics, of course. It puffs up man, as learning does, but this epistle is to keep us lowly, so that we go along with the lowly. Let us learn all we can, but learn it in a spiritual way.

W.S.S. The apostle was among them as speaking these things; that is, the things of God. It says, "Which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak".

J.T. Quite so; "which also we speak". How striking it must have been to hear that one man speaking the full thought of the Scriptures. As we remarked yesterday, we are to move together in a mutual way, not assuming to lord it over God's heritage, or to be superior to the brethren, but move

with them, and in moving with them to show what can be amongst us, although it may be only in one, for it is well to observe what there is in each one, what brethren are, what they may have, what they are able to do and say, so that we might reach their way and learn from them as Paul says, "The measure ... to reach to you also".

F.J.F. Would that be by basing everything upon Scripture? How would it practically take form?

J.T. Scripture, of course, is our guide for everything in a literal sense, but then we, especially young people, have also to observe what older people do and say and how they say things. It is said of the Lord Jesus, "He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak", Mark 7:37. The Lord is the example in that sense, but there is also now what we are coming to in chapter 3; what is called the "temple of God". The body of every christian is a temple in a certain sense, because he has the Holy Spirit, but the word 'temple' in chapter 3 is a collective thought; "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God ... ?"; ye, that is to say, the saints at Corinth, and that is because they not only were converted but they had the Spirit of God dwelling among them and had understanding too. Therefore, a local company anywhere as formed according to the truth of the assembly, could be designated in that way and therefore when they come together to look into the things of God, they have the character of the temple of God. The word 'temple' was applied even to the body of Christ when here. In chapter 2 of this epistle the word 'mind' is applied to us as to Christ. "We have the mind of Christ"; the same mind as Christ has, meaning the same thinking faculty that He has, and so therefore we can take in the things of God. However deep they may be, according to the measure that is possible we can take them in, therefore we

should not give up, or think that we do not understand. We have the Spirit of God, and as Paul says elsewhere, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding", 2 Timothy 2:7. If we are attentive to the ministry, and perhaps do not understand, the Lord will give understanding. Let us pray if we have a difficulty, and He will give understanding.

C.M.P. Is the knowledge of the things of God connected with the Spirit searching all things?

J.T. The allusion is to the depths of God. The Spirit searches them. John says in his first epistle, "Ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things". It is a somewhat different word from that usually employed for the Spirit, but it refers to the Spirit, and what we have as a result that we may know all things.

W.S.S. Does the thought of the temple in verse 16, link with the Lord's remark in John 2, when He says, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up"?

J.T. Well, it is the same word, but in an infinite sense applied to Christ; He alludes to Himself in speaking thus. It refers to Christ's body, as a Man, that although they might kill Him, He would be raised; He could raise Himself, because He is a divine Person.

P.L. So He is viewed there as the shrined Deity.

W.S.S. Was the shrine here in the Lord personally, but the shrine is still here, is it not?

J.T. Well, the word 'shrine' conveys what we are dealing with. It depends on the presence of the Spirit now, not the Spirit as in the Deity Itself, but as in the saints; that is, in the assembly.

H.W. Would you connect the temple with the hidden wisdom in the previous chapter? It was the inward side of christianity that was lacking in Corinth.

J.T. I would say that God has helped the brethren as He has helped the saints from the very outset of christianity, so that they have learnt to come together, and to read the Scriptures together and to pray together and to worship together. Matthew enlarges on these thoughts in saying, "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them". That is the Lord's own word, spoken as recorded by Matthew to show that, however reduced we are in numbers, this thought that we are now treating of may apply to us; that is, the thought of the shrine, the temple, because Christ is with us. It is also consequent on the saints being together, not simply so many persons, but together, which would mean, together in assembly. "Two of you" would mean two of the assembly, those who have the Spirit and understand the assembly; "two of you" are of that class. They have part in the assembly and can function as of the assembly.

C.M.M. In that way we can count on the Lord for a measure of temple light in all our Scripture readings together, although the temple in its fullest sense involves the whole assembly in the city.

J.T. I think that will come before us later. It is well to bring it up now, so as to make the position clear. The Lord has helped us I believe in these last days, during the time of the revival, extending back now nearly one hundred and twenty years, in which the Spirit of God has been freely operating. During this time certain methods have been taken on which are scriptural although they may not be exactly as they were at the beginning; that is to say, Bible readings and addresses among the brethren and there are many other things like that. So that we are learning, steadily learning, and coming to a knowledge of the truth; not ever learning, and never coming to a knowledge of the truth. The important

thing is to be learners, to be ever learning and learning in a true sense. The prophet speaking of the Lord Himself in the days of His flesh says Jehovah opened His ear morning by morning as the learner, so that He might speak a word to him that was weary, a word in season.

F.J.F. If there are only two or three in a small city or town, who come together thus, appreciating that God's mind with regard to the greatness of the truth is not altered, they can count upon the Spirit helping them.

J.T. Quite so. They can use written ministry too, I suppose you would say. We have written ministry, very often used, and very rightly used too and very important. Written ministry is what may be called an aid to the teaching of the apostle. So Paul himself asked Timotheus to bring the books, certain books. It does not indicate that they were his own writings; and then he said "especially the parchments". The notes that are taken amongst the brethren in recent years are of great value, because they afford the means to carry the truth to distant parts, to persons who are at a distance from the ministry.

F.J.F. Would that be recognising the temple in its fullest sense?

J.T. I think so. The temple, of course, always refers either to Christ, or to the Spirit in the saints. It does not refer to one isolated person, but to the saints who love one another coming together at any time and looking into things; the Spirit of God is with them and they take on the character of the temple as referred to in 1 Corinthians 3. The apostle Paul proceeds in chapter 3 saying, "And I, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly", showing how gatherings, local companies, may become very low in their state, in not availing themselves of what is to hand and in

not improving themselves, so that they might grow in the true knowledge of God. Paul has to say that they were not spiritual, but fleshly, as babes in Christ. Peter alludes to babes in another sense. In saying, "as newborn babes" Peter brings out that newborn babes have good taste and discernment as to food. Such are fresh and their minds are clear and so it is not a derogatory thought in Peter, but it is here in Corinthians. To remain babes as Paul speaks of them is derogatory because we should be steadily growing.

M.T.S.V. You referred last night to prayer being linked with current events in the assembly. Might the parchments refer to current ministry?

J.T. Quite so. It is not very clear, but they would refer to something written by Paul, because they are distinguished from books. The service of writing or of taking notes of spiritual ministry is important, because they can be passed on, so that brethren elsewhere may get the gain of what there may be in that sense. To the Corinthians the apostle says, "Ye are yet carnal", which means they are just natural men, and they have not developed in the truth and thus become spiritually grown men. I think this reminds us that the apostle Paul is dealing with the Corinthians as recently converted people. No doubt many were converted much earlier than they were, but in general, I would say, the Corinthians were recently converted and therefore treated very tenderly by the apostle. Some amongst them were going on very badly, for in the second letter he says he is reserving what he had in mind in the sense of vengeance, or judgment, until the generality of the saints at Corinth had arrived at the truth, as he says, "When your obedience shall have been fulfilled". Chapters 2 and 3 of the first epistle are specially aimed at that, as he calls attention to how he came down to just where they were, and brings

himself in, not treating them as chapter 5 does. He does not at the outset treat of the persons who were practising wickedness; he does not touch on them until chapter 5, where he deals with one of them whose conduct was worse even than that of the nations. In these earlier chapters Paul is dealing with them as a whole; they had not advanced very much, so he did not want to damage them, or to cause anything, as it were, to scare them. Paul did not want to do that as to the Corinthians, to scare even the young ones lest they might be turned aside.

C.M.P. Would there be help for us in dealing with what may be morally very low, that if the spiritual state is improved a truer moral judgment may be reached in individuals?

J.T. And to lead them on, as we shall see, is Paul's method with the Corinthians. He said to them in chapter 4 that he had sent Timothy to them. He did not want to come himself, because if he came, he would have to resort to apostolic authority, and therefore he sends a younger man; that is Timotheus, his own child in the faith, so that they might observe Paul's ways, and learn the truth from such a one as Timothy.

F.J.F. So he acted very tenderly towards them.

J.T. Quite so. We are struck too with the success of it.

J.E.M. Is what you have been saying in connection with the first and second chapters basic, as we approach the thought of the hill of God, in its present position relative to the Philistines, with a view to our getting further help in the midweek readings? Christ as God's power and God's wisdom and the Spirit of God are available, indicating what there is in a locality for correction, and for the building up of what is for God among the saints in the locality.

J.T. That raises the whole question as to ministry and what has come before the saints during recent

years as to the weekdays, that is to say from Monday to Saturday. The first day of the week when we have so much that is spiritual, has a distinction of its own that no other day has. It is the day on which Christ was raised by the glory of the Father, not simply by the power of the Father, but by the glory of the Father, and hence the peculiar distinction attached to the first day of the week, affording much instruction too for us, but then the other days of the week have not the same spiritual advantages. The midweek meetings, therefore, afford help, specially for the brethren as having to do with this world's affairs and the earning of their living and providing for their wives and children; they have to come in contact with what is defiling and what would tend to weaken them spiritually, and hence the great need for other meetings besides what there are on the Lord's day. Alluding to the midweek meetings, a meeting, say, on a Thursday (brethren will understand I am speaking very simply and practically) affords help to the brethren in the days when it is specially needed. In addition to the first day of the week and the prayer meeting on Monday night, which has now become customary, they have another meeting, not simply for the readings at the different rooms in any given town, but for the whole assembly in the place to come together at one time and in one hall; that is in chapter 14. The gathering together on other days in the different rooms is also right, even as the breaking of bread, but if the thought of "the hill of God" be understood and apprehended, then we must have the whole assembly come together at one time for ministry. All the gifts that may be available in the town are there, the prophetic men ministering and these are all available to all the saints in the place. That is what is in mind. What our brother has alluded to, the midweek meetings, have in mind the additional thought of supporting

and furnishing and helping forward generally all the saints in a town at the same time.

F.J.F. It gives us a very needed stimulus to go on throughout the whole week as being encouraged in coming thus together.

J.T. The "hill of God" alluded to in 1 Samuel 10 was in the camp of the Philistines; it should not have been there. Where the saints are walking in the light of the assembly and in the power of the Spirit, the Philistine will not have his place there. He has not such a place here today for instance. If we resort to Scripture and the ministry the Spirit affords, the hill of God will be in the hands of the saints themselves and they will be able to help one another. They will not need a clergyman or ordained minister, as he is called. They will be able to help one another, which is a great matter.

S.P.S. Would you make any distinction between that which is called the city reading and those in the different gatherings in a place? Is there anything different in character?

J.T. There would be less power in the smaller gatherings because all the gifts cannot be there. I am supposing that there are gifts, and there are (this epistle contemplates that there were gifts at Corinth), and they should be there when all the saints are together at one time. The gifts should be there, and hence the instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 is of prime importance.

C.M.M. You would encourage us to continue with both readings?

J.T. Quite so. It is because we need them. If there are many saints, as for instance in London, or in other large places, where there are several meetings in a city, they afford additional help in each part of the city beside the city meetings when all in the place come together.

F.J.F. The Lord seems to come in in a very special way in these midweek meetings. They seem to convey a very tangible sense of the assembly as gathered together which we do not have on other occasions.

J.T. Hence the assembly would throw light on the whole position. 1 Corinthians 12 tells us about the gifts; "Concerning spiritual manifestations, brethren, I do not wish you to be ignorant. Ye know that when ye were of the nations" (he is alluding to that because they had not been long away from paganism) "ye were led away to dumb idols, in whatever way ye might be led. I give you therefore to know that no one, speaking in the power of the Spirit of God, says, Curse on Jesus;" (that is a test), "and no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit". Well, that ought to appeal to every single one of us to say, "Lord Jesus", but the apostle in saying this implies that it is not simply the words, "Lord Jesus", but the power that accompanies the words. "There are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all. But to each the manifestation of the Spirit is given for profit. For to one, by the Spirit, is given the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit; and to a different one faith, in the power of the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing in the power of the same Spirit; and to another operations of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to a different one kinds of tongues; and to another interpretation of tongues. But all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases. For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ". Now that is the general thought, as when we are together.

In the concluding verses, the gifts are mentioned, so that we have to distinguish the first part of chapter 12, as applying to a local company, and the second part which applies to the whole assembly in a universal sense. When we touch the whole assembly then all the gifts are there, and hence the great advantage of large gatherings such as we have had in Glasgow and London and that we hope to have in Sydney and elsewhere, so that we might get the gain of all the gifts as far as possible, whatever they are.

A.M. Is the thought of gifts linked up with the idea of building, developed in chapter 3? It is for edification.

J.T. Just so, so that we have here Paul and Apollos and Cephas. He says, "Who then is Apollos, and who Paul?" The answer to that is "ministering servants, through whom ye have believed, and as the Lord has given to each. I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase". That is to say, we have in these two men the idea of gifts and how they work, the one plants and another waters and God gives the increase.

A.M. I am not quite clear as to the link between the agricultural thought and the constructional thought of the building.

J.T. We have already touched on the agricultural side, the watering and the planting; but then it goes on to say in verse 8, "But the planter and the waterer are one; but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God's fellow-workmen; ye are God's husbandry"; that is the agricultural thought; then "God's building"; that is the structural side. Paul says, "According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it". We have

the two sides, the structural side is a question of building, and skill in it. Paul uses the word architect, "a wise architect". He had a special place. Paul alone was the architect, Apollos was not the architect. It is in keeping with what is said to Peter by the Lord Himself in Matthew, "Thou art Peter" meaning that he was material for the building, and the Lord says, as to Peter's confession of Himself, as the Son of the living God, "And on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". It is to bring out what we have here, but more. Peter is not the builder, as some would say; he is the material for the building. The word is, "thou art Peter", whereas the Lord had already laid the foundation.

W.S.S. I was thinking of what the apostle says, "as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it". Paul's ministry would all be linked with that, would it not?

J.T. Therefore, we can see that Paul has a distinct place. Peter had one too. Peter and Paul had distinct places in regard to the structure, the building, and Paul, it would seem, is especially taken on in regard of the assembly. Peter is not taken on in that full sense, he is taken on administratively. The Lord says to him, "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens". But he was not given the ministry of building; Paul was given that. Peter does allude to the material, the stones, but Paul was the architect. Peter is never said to be that, nor is anyone else. Paul is an elect vessel unto Christ, and therefore in the chapter we are dealing with now, he regards himself as the architect of the assembly.

W.S.S. Does the word, "But let each see how he builds upon it", put every one of us under responsibility?

J.T. Just so, but I would say specially persons that are in special service.

W.S.S. And it was to be upon that foundation.

C.M.P. Is that because it must be in accordance with the pattern?

J.T. I would say that; the pattern must run through. The pattern in Exodus is just a type, whereas the New Testament furnishes the reality, what comes from the hands of Christ and His apostles in the power of the Spirit, but the Old Testament helps greatly. It says, indeed, that every Scripture is divinely inspired, in alluding to the Old Testament as well as to the New, and this accounts for the help we have in ministry from the Old Testament.

A.M. All true building is to be God's building in character by the Spirit.

J.T. Just so. That is what they were at Corinth, God's building. We must come back to God. That is the general principle of the scripture. We must come back to God in everything.

E.A.W. Will you help us a little in relation to the recognition of gift?

J.T. Where such may be there is special ability from God which must be treated as universal, and on this basis the saints, "all that in every place ...", should be sure to avail themselves of it. It is a question of God, and His workmanship. God is the Giver of the increase. "The planter and the waterer are one; but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God's fellow-workmen" (which I think would allude to Paul particularly); "ye are God's husbandry, God's building. According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid

the foundation, but another builds upon it". I think that "another" would allude to a workman in a special sense, although I would not exclude the general thought, for every one can do something in a sense of edification.

W.O.S. In regard to this question of recognising gifts, would Paul correspond with Moses in having received what he ministered from the glory? The Israelites were able to take account of Moses' face, that it shone.

J.T. Paul in that sense would correspond with Moses. In fact he speaks of himself in that way in certain places, and we can see that God has His special men, particularly men like Paul, outstanding men; there are none like them. In chapter 12 of Numbers, God tells us what He thought of Moses. As to Paul, I would think that the Lord gave him special liberty to speak of himself; I do not think he had any great pleasure in speaking of himself, but he does so because he was a typical man, a man that should be followed. He tells us too, how much he worked; it is most remarkable, the enormous amount of work he went through and the amount of travelling, so that we can rightly understand what the Lord meant when He said, "This man is an elect vessel to me".

P.L. Gideon said to his men, "Look on me, and do likewise", Judges 7:17. Then at the end of the verse, "it shall be that, as I do, so shall ye do". Is that leadership?

J.T. Just so. There are many like them, but as regards Moses and Paul, they are unique.

F.J.F. Are you referring to chapter 4 of the second epistle in saying that Paul had liberty to speak of himself and all he passed through? It is practically the subject of the whole chapter. "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not

from us; every way afflicted, but not straitened", and so on. He gives a great list.

J.T. Yes. As you run on through that epistle you come to a list of things that he mentions in chapter 11. He descends to the thought of folly, as if he were at liberty to do this, to speak in folly so as to help the Corinthians, and he tells them the things that he did and that God had done through him, and so he says, at the end, verse 29, "Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled, and I burn not? If it is needful to boast, I will boast in the things which concern my infirmity. The God and Father of the Lord Jesus knows -- he who is blessed for ever -- that I do not lie. In Damascus the ethnarch of Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes shut up, wishing to take me; and through a window in a basket I was let down by the wall, and escaped his hands". And then he goes on to the visions that he had, that he was caught up to the third heaven and into Paradise, showing what an extraordinary man he was, what extraordinary experience, and what extraordinary power was given to him towards the Corinthians.

J.E.M. It is well to bear in mind in our localities that Paul has the last word in regard to assembly matters. It was given to him to complete the word of God.

J.T. Quite so.

J.E.M. And then Peter, his great contemporary, speaks so favourably of him, saying, "According as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; among which some things are hard to be understood, which the untaught and ill-established wrest, as also the other scriptures, to their own destruction". The instructions necessary for the locality are to be found in Paul's writings.

J.T. Well that is what I would say, not indeed that Peter is excluded, because in his first epistle he does speak in similar language to Paul's, but you do feel that Paul has the very last word, as it were from heaven, even as the completion of the word of God. Surely the Lord should have liberty and right to present such a vessel, admiring him as He did, His own handiwork. He would guide Peter, His other great servant, to call Paul "our beloved brother Paul", and to make clear that his ministry was the word of God, "as also the other scriptures". Paul's letters are designated in that sense as the word of God by Peter.

W.S.S. So that in matters of local exercise we should pay strict attention to what Paul had to say and not take our directions from the Old Testament.

J.T. I think it is well that you have brought that up, because one has observed that the Old Testament scriptures are sometimes brought in by themselves, and Paul is overlooked and Peter overlooked, whereas at the beginning of the dispensation the word says that the believers "persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". It was not in the Old Testament service, but in that of the apostles; it was not Moses, not Abraham, not any of the Old Testament servants, but the apostles, showing that we are all to understand the character of this dispensation, that it is unique. We belong to it and we should shine in it.

S.P.S. Would you help us more on the question of recognising gift?

J.T. I think Paul in using himself so much covers the whole ground. No one speaks so much about himself as Paul, and that is clearly not that he wanted to, or that he was boastful of himself, but rather that the Lord used him in that sense, the

Spirit of God had liberty to use Paul in that sense to bring him out as a model for all saints at all times.

C.M.M. Were the Corinthians going to be tested by the coming of Timotheus? "Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear". They would have to recognise gift, would they not?

J.T. Quite so. He was a timid man, apparently, and Paul probably had that in mind in sending him. He did not go himself because he might have had to use the rod, in fact he raised the question with them as to whether they would prefer to have him come, but he did not go, showing that he was careful about the young Corinthian saints, that they should not be turned aside by anything and that wisdom should be used in all that was done for them.

W.S.S. That passage may help in regard to this question of recognising gift. "I have sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways, as they are in Christ". Such a brother coming among us and putting Paul's ministry before us would be recognised as one with gift.

J.T. Quite so. And things are gathered up in that way, and it is all tending to the completion of the assembly, so that the assembly should be fit for translation.

H.W. With regard to acknowledging gifts, the apostle says, "Be not negligent of the gift that is in thee, which has been given to thee through prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the elderhood", 1 Timothy 4:14. Would you expect anything of that kind today?

J.T. Well, "the hands of the elderhood"; there is such a thing as elderhood today, I suppose.

H.W. I was wondering whether we could look for any movement of the Spirit of God in that way, or whether gift is more set out in a man like the apostle.

J.T. The idea of eldership should be fostered, and the two epistles that speak of it especially are 1 Timothy and Titus. I think it should be fostered, and hence it is that we have the description of an elder and what should characterise him, but it has to be remembered that eldership never extends beyond a local position; it is always local. They were ordained for every assembly, or for cities, though they are not in the same category as the gifts referred to in 1 Corinthians 12 or Ephesians 4. At the same time they fit in with the truth of Ephesians, because the elders of Ephesus were called for by Paul at Miletus. They were called over to meet him, and he spoke to them as if they were representatives of the whole assembly, but I think that has to be taken with intelligence, because elsewhere elders are only for the local position.

READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (3)

1 Corinthians 10:14 - 22; 1 Corinthians 11:17 - 34

J.T. The subject will be the Lord's supper. We shall find in looking at these scriptures that they cover the truth of the Lord's Supper: in chapter 10, the fellowship involved in it, and then in chapter 11, the order that relates to it. Chapter 10 does not contemplate the saints together, although the coming together is necessary in order to fill out the truth, but as involving the fellowship, as we have said, it treats largely of our ordinary occupations, our having to do with everyday life. It therefore raises the question of loyalty to the truth; that is, to God and Christ and the Spirit, and lastly to the saints. It is a question of loyalty, beginning really at chapter 5, because there we are told that Christ, our Passover, is sacrificed for us. Therefore, we are to keep the feast with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. The keeping of the feast necessarily implies the formal coming together of the saints, which is chapter 11, but the keeping of it extends to everyday life, as we said, and how we behave, and how we maintain what is due to God in our everyday life, and what is due to one another too, for we have obligations to one another which the fellowship implies.

W.S.S. Does chapter 10 bring before us the general position, and chapter 11 the working out of the truth locally?

J.T. Just so; our being together. The passage in chapter 11, verse 18 reads, "For first, when ye come together in assembly". This has in mind how we act when we are together, that is to say how we conduct ourselves, as it were, inside in the assembly, whereas chapter 10 is conduct outside in our ordinary affairs.

F.J.F. Does it affect us as to associations, as well as our conduct?

J.T. I would say so. Verse 14 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of the Christ? Because we, being many, are one loaf, one body" Then Paul proceeds to say, "See Israel according to flesh, are not they who eat the sacrifices in communion with the altar?" So that associations are in view, the assembly being in mind and spoken of. One body is the only association that is allowed. Others would be contrary to the position, contrary to the truth, contrary to the fellowship. In the second epistle the matter of fellowship or associations is touched again. It says in chapter 6: 14, "Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers; for what participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness? and what consent of Christ with Beliar, or what part for a believer along with an unbeliever? and what agreement of God's temple with idols?". Thus the idea of associations is in mind in both epistles.

C.M.M. Why is the cup put first in chapter 10?

J.T. It is, I think, to make clear that the fellowship involves our everyday life. The cup would appeal to us as to the blessing involved in the fellowship, blessing resulting from Christ's death; so it is the communion of the blood of Christ; it is what is external. The order of the Lord's supper is not in mind there; that is in chapter 11, and that requires that the bread should be first.

S.J.C. Is what is outside governed by the Lord's table?

J.T. Well, the Lord's table is just a term used, because of the allusion to the altar. It is really in

a Jewish setting in that sense. Reference is made to idolatry, in the table of demons, so that the idea of the table is there. The table suggests that in which we participate together; we have it introduced in Exodus 25:23 - 30. There is the bread on it and the vessels for what is poured out; there is the idea of eating and drinking. The altar is alluded to here. "See Israel according to flesh: are not they who eat the sacrifices in communion with the altar?" and then in the epistle to the Hebrews it is said, "We have an altar", which carries the same idea as the table. "We have an altar of which they have no right to eat who serve the tabernacle"; that is, our altar is exclusive. The Lord's table is not the idea of an ordinary table, for it indicates that we have fellowship with one another, have joint participation together.

S.J.C. Suggesting the character of things?

J.T. Just so, and involving persons.

W.S.S. Would the altar bring before us the thought of the death of Christ as the basis on which everything is established?

J.T. That is so. I think the allusion in chapter 5 would be that. Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us. Christ is our Passover, then all that is carried over in ourselves when we are together according to chapter 11. At Corinth there was conduct which Paul could not approve, and he refers to it in chapter 11, when speaking of their coming together. The apostle used the word 'together', but not as approving their conduct. It was right to come together, in fact they could not have the Lord's supper without coming together, but their conduct was bad.

W.W. "We, being many, are one loaf, one body" in chapter 10, does that come into the Lord's supper?

J.T. It comes into the Supper in our minds. That we stand in relation to one another is a very

important matter, as Paul says, "we, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf".

W.S.S. Would you say that the truth that is presented here should govern us through the week; whether as to the altar, or the one body?

J.T. Quite so. What is in mind in chapter 10 is the actual celebration of the Lord's supper, but not the order of it. The cup is presented first, because of the peculiar preciousness conveyed in it, not to imply that the drinking comes first in the order of the service, because it does not. The order is in chapter 11, where the bread comes first.

A.M. Would it be right to say that chapter 10 sets out the public position, the setting in which the Supper is found? Its holy character demands that it should be celebrated in a clean and holy setting.

J.T. Without stressing the order. The things belonging to it, of course, are there, but the order is in chapter 11 only, and this order implies the bread first. In chapter 11 the thing in mind is the memorial, or celebration of the Supper. There is a touching value attached to the emblems, and especially to the cup. "In like manner also", it says, "the cup", because it was a question of drinking. I think there is special value attached to the drinking, especially as linked with the word, "We have been all made to drink into one Spirit". It is a grand thought, a full and blessed thought that enters into the Lord's supper, "one Spirit"; hence we sing,

'"One Spirit", glorious Lord!
O blessed, wondrous word!
What heav'nly light, what power divine,
Doth that sweet word afford!'

I think the brethren will follow that we have to distinguish between the things as denoting our fellowship, and as usable in the celebration and the order of the Lord's supper.

P.L. Is the value of the partnership emphasised in the light of what it has cost Christ to establish it, the blood of the Christ?

J.T. That was what I was thinking. What it has cost Him. It was the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot.

F.J.F. That makes it clear that the fellowship is entirely of God.

J.T. Yes; entirely of God. In 1 John 1:3, the word 'fellowship' is linked up with the apostles only. They have a fellowship of their own according to John's epistle, but that is not the fellowship of Christ's death or the blood of Christ, but rather the fellowship of life, the fellowship the apostles had in regard of life, and therefore the life is presented in that epistle as "That which was from the beginning", 1 John 1:1. The apostles have a peculiar fellowship in that respect, and it is with the Father and with the Son. We could hardly link these thoughts of the Father and the Son with the thoughts connected with the Lord's supper. The Lord's supper is an institution by itself; it is the dominical Supper. He has authority over it and has to say in an authoritative way to those who partake of it, and then it is linked up with the first day of the week.

H.W. Would it be right to infer from chapter 10 that they were going on with what was really idolatrous?

J.T. That is the very thing that is alluded to; "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry", 1 Corinthians 10:14. He has that specially in mind, although he touches on judaism too, but idolatry was the immediate thing that was in his mind, for they had just come out of it. He is always tender about them lest he should do anything that would turn them away, because they were so lately brought out of the thing and might go back into it again. There was the Jew,

and the gentile, and the assembly of God, these three things are spoken of in this epistle. One might go into one of their places of religious service and another into another of them, and there can be no doubt that chapter 14 has in mind one who has done that, and he finally comes into the christian assembly and he finds that God is there. Prophesying is proceeding, and God is brought to the conscience in prophecy, so that the man falls down and is convicted of all; he is judged of all and falling down he worships God and reports that God is indeed amongst them.

W.S.S. So the temple of God is reached in the way you were speaking about this morning.

J.T. Just so. The temple of God is holy, and we are that temple, because "the Spirit of God dwells" in us. I thought we might link that on with what we had this morning. We spoke about the shrine, which is the holy thought as to the temple where God's mind is made known. The psalmist says, "To enquire in his temple". It is the place of inquiry.

W.S.S. I was struck with the link between chapter 3, "Ye are the temple of God", and what you were speaking of from chapter 12; what one might speak of as the activities which are connected with the temple, although it is the body that is spoken of in chapter 12. The Lord in the second chapter of John, to which we have referred, spoke of "the temple of his body". Then I wondered if in what has just been alluded to in 1 Corinthians 14, "God is indeed amongst you", we have the thought of God being there, and are not these chapters 10 and 11 necessary to reach that end?

J.T. That is good. The temple as we had it this morning is essential to the idea of the service of God and the worship of God.

W.S.S. Without the truth of these two chapters we could not reach it practically, could we?

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. Would the delicacy of feeling with Paul suggest something of the spirit seen in relation to Christ; "a bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, until he bring forth judgment unto victory", Matthew 12:20. Is that what in a certain way Paul secured in the Spirit's power?

J.T. Just as we were saying today, that he sent Timotheus, instead of going there himself, because if he went by himself he would have to correct everything. He could not be there, with such conduct as is found in the second epistle, without dealing with it, and so he sends Timotheus who is a sympathetic young brother. The apostle speaks of him in that light, saying that he was to be with them without fear. That would mean that the ministry was modified amongst them, so that they might not be in any way scared away from the fellowship, from the assembly, and the service of God. The man contemplated in chapter 14 is said to report (it is a very important thing to have in mind the public side) that God was amongst them of a truth. How could God be there except in a holy way? God is holy; the temple of God is holy.

I think we might say we have touched sufficiently, for the present, on chapter 10, involving the fellowship, distinguishing it from chapter 11 which involves the order of procedure in the Lord's supper; that is to say, what we do, why we do it, the order in which we do it; and so the first verse of chapter 11 says, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ". Paul brings himself in again in a very striking way, and then he elaborates on the question of headship, involving the covering of the head by the sisters. Then in verse 17 he begins to speak of the order of the Lord's supper as actually celebrated, and the

apostle condemns what they were doing. It is quite obvious that the thought of headship should precede this instruction, and so he says, "I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God. Every man praying or prophesying, having anything on his head, puts his head to shame. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head uncovered puts her own head to shame; for it is one and the same as a shaved woman. For if a woman be not covered, let her hair also be cut off. But if it be shameful to a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, let her be covered. For man indeed ought not to have his head covered, being God's image and glory; but woman is man's glory. For man is not of woman, but woman of man. For also man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels". Verse 10 is one which we should especially notice; there is to be with the woman a token of the authority under which she stands, that is, the authority that is over her. She is to recognise that there is authority over her, and that there is authority over the man too, and that authority is Christ, and even over Christ is God. So that the order is from God to Christ, from Christ to the man, and the man to the woman, and verse 10 is to bring the thing home to the woman, so that she is to be covered in the recognition of the authority under which she stands.

F.J.F. Would that mean that the apostle approaches the subject of order in the assembly by way of showing that there is order in the universe of God? Has that to do with the universe?

J.T. I would think so. You see from God to Christ and from Christ to man; the word used for man means man as distinct from woman. Therefore

the authority is from God to Christ, and from Christ to man, and from man to woman, and then in this instruction we are told that nature should teach us, so that universal authority, I would say, or ornamentation if we may use that word, is in mind. The ornamentation implied in the order of God from Himself down to Christ, from Christ down to the man and from the man down to the woman, is something that we have to ponder over, and see what is meant by it. Why should what is the mere physical action of the woman covering her head, or the man not covering his head, why should these things be mentioned? Surely there must be a very good reason for them to be mentioned and especially in view of the fact that the Lord's supper is just immediately to be celebrated in the chapter.

R.J.D. Why are the angels brought in here. What relation are they to the Supper?

J.T. They are creatures, one of the great families of God, and their intelligence is remarkable, their power is remarkable, both these things are alluded to. You see for instance in the case of Manoah, the husband of the woman to whom the Angel appeared, how intelligent the Angel was, and how he acted as God really before Manoah, and his wife, and then how his wife is instructed as to the child that she is to have and how he is to be brought up in the light of power, in the light of his mother and father.

P.L. Have these angels maintained subjection in the presence of insubjection around? They left not their first estate; they are referred to as holy angels.

J.T. There is a family that left not their first estate, and they are viewed as obedient, and are called elect angels. The apostle Paul charged Timothy in the presence of the elect angels, showing how intelligent and important they are in the presence of God.

C.M.M. Would it be correct to connect the thought of "the head of Christ is God" with the Son being placed in subjection in chapter 15?

J.T. I think that is quite right. The Son shall be in subjection, we are told.

F.J.F. Would you say that the angels all know that the saints are much beloved? The one that spoke to Daniel said, "O ... man greatly beloved", Daniel 10:11.

J.T. They are conversant with what is current in heaven, and with what is current on earth, too, because they are sent out to minister on account of those who shall be heirs of salvation; they are all sent out for that.

P.L. To reflect heaven's interest providentially in the care they exercise.

J.T. Very good; that is very largely how they act, and they are serviceable to God in His providences.

H.R.H.T. Is this acknowledgment of the authority under which the woman stands called for only in the assembly?

J.T. I would say at all times. I do not mean when she is sleeping or resting or the like, but where she is functioning in any capacity that a woman should function in. That is what I understand.

H.R.H.T. Praying in the home, would she be covered?

J.T. Quite so. It is to bring in the order of God. We may say, Why should it be? Well, God says so and that ought to be enough for every subject heart. If we bow to Scripture, then we get understanding about it.

P.L. So that subject holy women would love to reflect this subjection in that economy of blessing in which sovereign love and mercy have set them.

J.T. You see how much pleasure God has in these holy women; such as Sarah and others. God

dignifies them in the way they are spoken of; Mary too, and many others that could be cited, all as examples for us now. We have remarkable things mentioned here too, the creation of man and woman in verse 8, "For man is not of woman, but woman of man. For also man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels. However, neither is woman without man, nor man without woman, in the Lord". Neither is left alone, each is provided for, but all "in the Lord", and that is the great point that the Lord is stressing, as a warning against the evil of mixed marriages. God undertook to provide a wife for Adam, and if so, why should not He take the same pains as regards ourselves, both sisters and brothers, as to marriage? but they all should be "in the Lord", because the whole economy is in the Lord. Why should anyone break through it for the sake of getting a husband or a wife, breaking through the economy of God, the order of God?

P.L. And in so doing snapping, one might say, ruthlessly, the most sacred bond that divine love could forge here in relation to the fellowship.

J.T. Great thought is taken as to it. Man is mentioned first in Genesis 1, but chapter 2 brings out the distinction, and the result, "therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife, and they shall be one flesh". That is the great result reached and it has come down the line to us, and it is to be carried out in the assembly, for the assembly is peculiarly representative of what is feminine. She is the bride of Christ, including brothers and sisters. "I have espoused you unto one man", the apostle says, and that one man is Christ, and the bride, the person who is espoused, is the assembly.

S.J.C. If the truth of this, in the early part of chapter 11, were really held, and everything related to God was in order, there would not be room for division.

J.T. It must necessarily affect the unity of the saints as spoken of in the latter part of the chapter, where the Lord's supper is celebrated.

F.J.F. So the assembly would reflect in every detail the mind of God?

J.T. That is what is so important now, and the Lord is helping the saints in regard to it, so that the assembly may be representative of the presence of the Holy Spirit here upon earth as taking care of what belongs to God, and a sure guarantee of the preservation of all that belongs to God subjectively. God is greatly helping the brethren on those lines.

H.W. What is the difference between being "in Christ" and "in the Lord"?

J.T. I think "in Christ" is a fuller thought than "in the Lord"; because the Christ is really an expression which means that the person so named is the One who does things for God. He is the One that does everything for God. We read, for instance, as to the creation, that not one thing was made without Him. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". John 1:3. Well, that is very important; there is nothing without Christ, and it is to bring out fulness, I think, in all that is done. How thoroughly He is in the hand of God as John says in his gospel, "The Father loves the Son"! It brings out what the Father finds in that Person, because He does things for Him, and therefore it says. He "has given all things to be in his hand", John 3:35.

Having said so much about the first part, then we might proceed to the second part; that is to say, the order in which the Lord's supper is to be celebrated, and it says in verse 17, "But in prescribing to you

on this which I now enter on, I do not praise, namely, that ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse". This shows that because of the disregard of these things of which we have been speaking, there is a worse condition than if we were not together at all. We may thus come together for the worse, rather than for the better, and then it goes on to say, "For first, when ye come together in assembly, I hear there exist divisions among you". We have had that already in chapter 1; it is the first thing mentioned as exhorted against. Here it is brought in again in regard to the Lord's supper, that division is apt to be there, for it says, "For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you". That is to say, the approved were not only present, but they were manifest among them; "that the approved may become manifest among you", Paul says.

W.S.S. It is remarkable that in such conditions there comes to light that which is pleasing to God. Despite the breakdown suggested here in sects or schools of thought, those who are approved of God become manifest.

J.T. Very good. It does not say, If they be approved; they are assumed to be there.

W.S.S. And by reason of these conditions (in themselves, matters of a distressing character) that which is approved of God is brought to light.

J.T. Showing how God carries out His will.

P.L. "For he will be like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' lye", Malachi 3:2.

J.T. Very true.

F.J.F. Would that mean that the approved would have the Lord's support and the others would feel that? Is that the way it would be manifested?

J.T. Well, I think you have illustrations throughout Scripture of how God intervenes on behalf of those who are approved of Him. For instance, when

Moses came down from the mount to find that the golden calf was being worshipped, he said, "Who is on the Lord's side?", and the Levites rallied to Moses' side. God intervened at once; the matter was made clear. When Aaron and Miriam questioned Moses, saying that the word was not only given to him, but to them too. God immediately intervened and demanded that they should all come out to the door of the tabernacle and the result was that Miriam was smitten with leprosy; thus Moses was supported and there were those approved of God. To Timothy it is said, "Shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed", 2 Timothy 2:15. I am sure God is proceeding on those lines since Pentecost and even from the very first, from the introduction of sin. God has been there to show His approval, as of those who stand in a day of evil. In Noah and Abraham and all the prophets there was always manifest approval of God for what was right, so that we need not fear. "Only be strong and very courageous", Joshua 1:7. It is a question of being strong and firm in what is right; therefore the word is, "follow righteousness"; let us make it our leader.

F.J.F. It is said even of the Lord Himself "a man approved of God"; Acts 2:22.

J.T. Just so. There is much in our minds just now as to this passage; that is to say, the actual order of the Lord's supper, and it is now a time when we might have help from one another. The Lord's supper is the one thing that is really introductory to the whole service of God.

S.J.C. Is what is connected with the cup wider than what is connected with the bread?

J.T. Well I would make it all one thing, there is only one supper, it is the Lord's supper; it has a dual character and is viewed as it is now before us.

I should not like to put one part of it before another, although the order puts the bread first.

C.M.P. What is the distinction between the coming together "in assembly" (chapter 11: 18), and "the whole assembly come together in one place" (chapter 14: 23)?

J.T. I am glad you bring that up, because it will help us to distinguish between what we have in the service of God on the first day of the week in cities where there is more than one gathering and what is in chapter 14 regarding a gathering for the service of ministry. In this chapter it is just "in assembly" whereas in chapter 14 it is "the whole assembly". "If therefore the whole assembly come together in one place". The article is before, "the whole assembly", whereas it is just "in assembly" in chapter 11. The article being inserted in chapter 14 is to show that all the saints in a town or city are in mind, whether there is more than one meeting or only one, all are to come together into one place.

W.S.S. The whole assembly would mean that all the saints available in the city are to come together.

J.T. That is right; whereas the article is omitted in chapter 11; it is just "in assembly", not "in the assembly"; it is the character of the gathering together.

W.S.S. If there are 500 or more brethren in a city they could not very well come together to break bread all in one place.

J.T. Quite so.

F.J.F. They should all come together 'in assembly'.

J.T. There used to be larger meetings in large cities, sometimes up to three hundred together to celebrate the Lord's supper, and, of course, it was somewhat unwieldy. The Lord helped us as to this in accord with the facts in the beginning of the Acts where it would be very clear that the Lord's supper must have been celebrated by a large number, and

that it must have been in several rooms or halls. There were at least three thousand, and you could hardly imagine the Lord's supper being celebrated by three or four thousand actually together; it would occasion great difficulty, because of the largeness of the company. Undoubtedly they had smaller companies, because it says, "breaking bread in the house"; that is the word used in Acts 2. You could hardly think that there was a house in Jerusalem large enough to accommodate three thousand people, but the word is that they were "breaking bread in the house", and we have mention in the epistles of several houses which were used in that same connection.

R.J.D. Do I understand that when brethren are together in large numbers for conferences, extra rooms are used for the breaking of bread?

J.T. We do have smaller gatherings. In America we have about twenty gatherings a year, which we call 'general gatherings', where the saints continue together for three days in view of ministry. On the first day of the week the ordinary rooms are far too small to accommodate all that come together, and so we hire other rooms, or use rooms in private houses, and the Lord greatly blesses that, I have noticed. I suppose it is so here, too.

C.M.M. Would the assemblies in the house of Nymphas, Aquila and Philemon suggest the idea?

J.T. I think they would, and these that I allude to are very frequent and very simple; we are all familiar with them in America, and I have no doubt they are in Australia. These larger meetings are not so frequent in Great Britain, because the gatherings are so near together, and there is not the same need to come together for three days; they have so many meetings, but at the same time the principle is here that I am speaking of. If there are more than can be accommodated properly according to the second

of Acts where the breaking of bread was in the house, then we should have several houses, or several rooms, or whatever they may be called, and the Lord will be in each of them; that is to say, as we are in assembly; we gather in assembly, in each room or house.

W.S.S. You have in mind the possibilities which are connected with coming together in assembly in connection with the service of God leading from the Supper?

J.T. Just so. Usually we might say in any one of those meetings that we have on the Lord's day, we have the general order of service recognised to be right, and even although the number may be smaller, yet we proceed on the same lines; that is to say, we have service in God's assembly.

C.M.M. "This do" in connection with the loaf would be what the Lord did, would it not, the giving thanks and the breaking of the loaf? Then in connection with the cup, "this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me", would be what the Lord did, as giving thanks for the cup?

J.T. That is what I understand.

C.M.M. Not the drinking.

J.T. In what happened at Emmaus, the drinking is not mentioned. The Lord vanished as He broke the bread, after He gave thanks for the bread. The drinking is not mentioned, but the Lord's supper requires the drinking, for there are two parts to the Lord's supper, the first is the breaking of the bread and the second is the drinking of the cup. It says, "In like manner also the cup".

C.M.M. The Lord did not drink of the cup, did He? The "this do" is connected with the giving of thanks for the cup rather than with our drinking of it. Is that right?

J.T. Paul says, "For I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord

Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you, this do in remembrance of me. In like manner also the cup, after having supped" (that word 'supped' means 'taking supper', that is the passover supper) "saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, this do, as often as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me". I would say, that "this do" is just what is said in this verse. The Lord took the cup and passed it to them, even as He broke the bread, but there must have been some action in regard of the cup, which is covered in the word, "In like manner also the cup". I think it ought to be understood spiritually, but there must have been something in like manner; that is to say the same idea would be attached to both the bread and the cup as to what the Lord did.

F.J.F. He took it apart from the passover supper.

J.T. That is right. He took the cup too, apart from the passover supper. There was the cup in connection with the passover supper, because He said that He would not drink it again, but then the cup He took later belonged exclusively to the Lord's supper which He was instituting.

R.L. Should the brother serving on that occasion give thanks for the bread and "in like manner" for the cup?

J.T. Yes; that is the order, and we would have to do that to follow what the Lord did, because "this do" is what He did; it is part of the institution; it is 'for the calling of Me to mind'. That is what the Lord has specially before Him; that He should be remembered.

A.W.P. Is there the thought of the Lord making Himself known to us as the Mediator of the new covenant, and our getting a fresh sense of the love of God?

J.T. Well, that is said, I know, but I prefer to confine all to the Lord, for it is the Lord's supper; it is never spoken of as God's supper, nor the Father's supper, nor the Spirit's supper. It is the Lord's supper, so that what is done ought to bring forward the Lord, not God, or the Father or the Spirit.

F.J.F. Is that why it is called the dominical Supper?

J.T. Just so; we are right in saying that, and it agrees with the Lord's day, the dominical day.

J.P.v.N. Would you say that we remember the Lord as risen; not the sufferings, but the Person?

J.T. Of course, the Lord is risen; that is true, but I do not think He is stressing the fact that He is risen. When He first appeared to Paul, He said to him, "Why persecutest thou me?", Acts 9:4. Viewed simply and abstractly as risen, He is not persecuted. He is at the right hand of God and in power; He is not persecuted there. What we remember refers to where He is down here and what is going on down here, not in heaven. When He appeared to Paul and said, "Why persecutest thou me?" Paul was really persecuting the saints; so that when the Lord said that, He was identifying the suffering saints with Himself. The Lord is in heaven, of course, corporeally, but then the Lord is also regarded as having part in the sufferings of His own here, and I think that we ought to bear that in mind, in partaking of the Lord's supper, that it is a question of the sufferings in which He is in His body here, in His people, and how He feels things.

S.J.C. Is that why the setting is always given as one of betrayal?

J.T. Just so. It was the night on which He was betrayed. Why should that be said? That is carried through by Paul in 1 Corinthians, it is the public setting of the Lord's supper.

READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (4) PART 1

1 Corinthians 15:1 - 28

J.T. This scripture is a most important section and what comes into it immediately is the matter of the Lord's appearing. It runs on from the first verse, "But I make known to you, brethren; the glad tidings which I announced to you, which also ye have received". The apostle is stressing the fact that they not only heard the truth, but that they had received it. He further says, "in which also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, (if ye hold fast the word which I announced to you as the glad tidings,) unless indeed ye have believed in vain". He is stressing the fact that the glad tidings were preached through him, and they had received it, and they would be saved by the glad tidings. All these are very important facts to keep in mind. But then he says, "For I delivered to you, in the first place, what also I had received" (verse 3). These words are also found in chapter 11, as to the Lord's supper. But here he says, "What also I had received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures". These are facts to be noted, and as I have said, what has been read refers to the basis of the gospel; that is to say "that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures". The Scriptures are stressed, "and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures". The only point that I would further stress is that "he was buried", for that is included in what is necessary for redemption; that is, for the testimony in the gospel. Christ not only died, but He was buried, and then He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures. Do the brethren have that in mind as an item of the gospel, and an

item of the means of salvation; that is, the burial of the Christ?

J.P.v.N. Would that mean that we have been put out of sight in the grave? The Lord was put out of sight in the grave.

J.T. Put out of sight. There is scripture for that, because Abraham said of his wife, "That I may bury my dead out of my sight". We have to speak very carefully and holily as regards the Lord Jesus, but He was actually put out of sight. He not only died on the cross, but He was buried, put out of sight, as our brother says. And He was there for three days and three nights, as He said Himself, "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth", Matthew 12:40.

P.L. Vicariously, for He was buried for the sake of others.

J.T. Just so. That is part of the vicarious work of Christ; not only that He died, but that He was buried. The passage brings out the place that Scripture has in the testimony, that everything must be supported by Scripture. The Bereans tested what Paul said; it is said that they searched the Scriptures as to whether these things were so, whether they were so according to Scripture.

F.J.F. Would "according to the scriptures" cover both those statements "that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures"? The Scripture says that men appointed His grave with the wicked, but that He was with the rich in His death.

J.T. I would say that. Speaking with the utmost reverence, let us think what it was to God Himself; what it meant to Him, that His beloved Son should lie in the grave for three days and three nights. What is that to you? What do we understand by that?

P.L. He could say to His God, "Thou hast laid me in the dust of death", Psalm 22:15.

F.J.F. Was the teaching behind that, that the first order of man had to be removed?

J.T. Yes, removed out of sight, as our brother said, that is to say, He was put into the ground. The judgment on man was, "dust thou art; and unto dust shalt thou return". We could not apply that to Christ, for He was the Holy One of God, and saw no corruption, but He was laid in the grave, "the heart of the earth", as He said.

F.J.F. There is no revival of the man that was removed in judgment.

J.T. No revival at all. In resurrection Christ came out of it all, a Man of another order really. We have to apprehend that; and not only that, but that He has gone into heaven. The Lord is spoken of in Philippians 3:20, "Our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory". Now I just wish to call attention to that; it was not His body of resurrection simply, but His body of glory. We are to be conformed to that, hence the greatness of what we are coming into, in translation. We are to be made like the Lord Jesus, to His body of glory.

F.J.F. No one knows what that is like.

J.T. Well, John would say, "When he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2. It is not as He was, but as He is. That is what I gather the passage means, that the present state in which Christ is in heaven, His body of glory, is what we await.

H.W. Do you connect the thought of order or condition with the Lord's present position? He is spoken of as a Man of another order in resurrection.

J.T. Quite so. Both words are right, I would say, either 'order' or 'condition', though each word has its own distinctive meaning. The Lord's present

condition is not simply that He has risen, but that He is glorified.

H.W. Would you connect the thought of order with what He was here in flesh and blood? I would like to get clear as to Christ being of a different order, although here in human condition?

J.T. Well, it refers to what He was morally, but still He was a Man. His condition then was spoken of as "in the days of his flesh", Hebrews 5:7. I think that ought to be paid attention to.

H.W. "The second man, out of heaven". That would be connected with the days of His flesh.

J.T. He was in a unique condition. There never was anyone like Him, before or since, because He was sinless, not only sinless, but righteous, such being predicated of Him in a moral sense, but still He laid down His life. He laid it down. He said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again". "That I might take it" is in another condition.

F.J.F. Mr. Stoney used to refer to the Lord as sui generis; that is, of His own order.

J.T. That is good. So even as regards the days of His flesh, He was of His own order morally, but the words "flesh and blood" have to be recognised; "the days of his flesh" implies a condition that had to be given up, and it was given up. He took it to give it up, and so "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit", John 12:24. That includes, I apprehend, what we are just speaking of, the three days and three nights, that He not only died, but that He was buried and came out of the earth in another condition of manhood, and that condition is resurrection; but then there is a further thought, that He is in a glorified body. John says, "We shall see him as he is"; not as He was, but as He is. So, too, John says that "as he is, so are we

in this world", 1 John 4:17; that is to say, morally we are that; as He is, we are that in this world.

J.P.v.N. Shall we have resurrection bodies?

J.T. Well, we shall be raised, of course, as we have read. The stress here is on the resurrection; we shall have risen bodies, but then we shall have glorified bodies, which is an additional thought. We shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. That was not during the forty days when He was here in the flesh; it is His heavenly condition. These instances of His appearings which we have in our chapter refer almost entirely to the forty days of the Lord's sojourn before He went to heaven. But of Paul it is said in this passage, he says it of himself, that Christ appeared to him too, so that he saw Christ as He is; that has to be kept in mind. The list given is as follows: "And that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to above five hundred brethren at once, of whom the most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James; then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God. But by God's grace I am what I am; and his grace, which was towards me, has not been vain; but I have laboured more abundantly than they all, but not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Whether, therefore, I or they, thus we preach, and thus ye have believed". Paul is included in those to whom Christ Himself appeared, and I think that is worthy of consideration, because it raises the question of the Lord's coming to us, according to John 14:18. The Lord says there, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". Well, there the question is whether that coming to us is in His heavenly, glorious body, or whether it is a spiritual matter, only meaning that

He comes to us in the power of the Spirit when we are in assembly. That is the question which I think is worthy of consideration.

J.E.M. The Lord served in His body of flesh and blood and then in His resurrection body. Are you suggesting our apprehending Him in some sense, as He comes to us, in His body of glory?

J.T. I would say that exactly. It is a wonderful thing. We may say we have not seen Him thus and, of course, I go with that. At the same time there are the scriptural statements and the fact that Paul saw Him. "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" he asks, 1 Corinthians 9:1. And he did not see Him as He was in the days of His flesh, nor is it what the others saw in the forty days before He ascended. Paul saw Him in His body of glory. So that whether it be in His body before He was glorified, or after, these statements refer to Christ, and Paul is singular in that he said, "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" We know that he saw the Lord Jesus; he saw Him, and heard His voice. So that in this very dispensation in which we are, Christ was apprehended corporeally, that is to say in the body, here, by a christian. The question, therefore, is now brought down to this: whether these instances of the Lord's appearing to His own in this chapter were in His state before He ascended, and thus in a corporeal sense as Man, but a glorious Person, a risen Man, and whether they also include, and we know they do in Paul's case, seeing the Lord in His body of glory?

W.S.S. Is the apostle here establishing the truth of the resurrection, and these facts are brought forward in support of it?

J.T. That is what this passage is dealing with really, but what we are now touching is a little more than that. The Lord we are told, has a body of glory, and we have to take account of that.

F.J.F. Do you think in assembly, that we should look for these manifestations to be conscious that we are in the presence of One who is glorified?

J.T. I think that is quite in order, only that, according to what is said in Acts 1 of the forty days. He presented Himself living, being seen by them. The conditions were somewhat different from what are indicated in Paul's case.

H.W. These four great facts have to be held in our mind to the end as characteristics of christianity, Christ died, was buried, was raised, and appeared; the last equal to all the others.

J.T. Very good. In whatever sense the word 'appearing' may be used, it enters into assembly service and privilege.

C.M.P. In what aspect would "seen" be used? Paul no doubt saw Him with his eyes. Do we see Him with the eyes of our heart?

J.T. No one would attempt to say anything beyond that, as far as I know, but certainly Paul saw something more than that. John would say, "We shall see him as he is". He does not say, 'We have seen Him as He is'; it is a future thing that is in his mind. So in Philippians His "body of glory" is what we are to be like.

W.O.S. Would it be right to say that the attitude of the assembly is looking for the Lord Jesus? "Even so, come, Lord Jesus", Revelation 22:20.

J.T. The word as to that is very touching. Those that love His appearing, not simply that He will come according to 1 Thessalonians 4, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first". It is not only that, but as John says, we shall see Him as He is; it is to those that love His appearing. It is as well to keep in mind that we love His appearing, not simply that we love to see Him as risen, but that

we love His appearing, alluding to the condition He is in today. The condition He took up after the forty days was a glorious condition. It was after He ascended, according to the facts, that He took up the condition that Paul calls "his body of glory" and that is what we are looking for. We love His appearing.

J.W. "We shall see him as he is". Does it involve that we shall be like Him, when we see Him?

J.T. I think so; "for we shall see him as he is". Then there is the other word in John's epistle, "Even as he is, we also are in this world", 1 John 4:17. It alludes to His present position, and the place divine love has given to us. His appearing literally will be in His body, His body of glory.

F.J.F. Paul gets the crown then, does he not? The crown of righteousness shall be given not only to me, he says, but to all those who love His appearing.

W.L. In John 20:20 it says, "Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord".

J.T. He had not yet ascended. We have the formal statement that Jesus was not yet glorified, that means His glory was in mind, not only His resurrection, but His glory. But when they saw the Lord, it was simply the condition He was in as risen. I would not attempt to say that there is any great difference, but we have the word, "his body of glory". We must pay attention to that: but what they saw in John 20 was before He ascended. "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend"; that is, He is going to ascend "to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God". He was going to do that, but He was here forty days before He did it, but then He caused gladness to the apostles, to the disciples; it was at the very sight of Him. So John said to Peter, "It is the Lord". Jesus said to Mary, "Go to my brethren and say to them,

I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God", but He had not done that yet, not until the forty days were over.

J.E.M. Does it help us at the Lord's supper, as He is spiritually apprehended coming into the midst, if we have in mind that He has a body of glory? it would add to our joy.

J.T. I think that is right. Paul would be the full witness to that. He asks, "Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?" 1 Corinthians 9:1. He meant just what we are talking about. He meant Jesus as He is in glory.

C.M.M. Would that link on with announcing the Lord's death until He come?

J.T. It would, because He will come as He is, you know, not as He was.

S.P.S. Did you have any more in mind regarding John 14? You raised an inquiry as to whether it would be a spiritual matter or should we discern His body of glory.

J.T. That is a very good question, an important one for the brethren to think over. We have not much time to discuss it now, but it certainly is worthy of attention. Whether, according to His word "I am coming to you", He comes only in the spiritual sense. Of course, we can well understand that He can do that, because the Holy Spirit is here and here permanently until the Lord comes. We can well understand that the Lord would come in the spiritual sense as impersonated by the Spirit, if I am right in using that word. The identification of the divine Persons is inscrutable, we cannot always distinguish them. We cannot speak of them as if we knew exactly, because divine Persons are inscrutable, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father could be impersonated by the Spirit, too, and the Holy Spirit, of course, is Himself, the Spirit. There is a divine Person here, actually here, today on the earth, not representatively, but actually, and

that Person is the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Jesus Christ too. The Spirit Himself is spoken of as a divine Person speaking and acting, according to Acts 13. The Spirit of God acts and speaks of Himself. The Spirit said, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them"; He was actually speaking Himself. Well, now, that Person is here and He has been here all these years, all these centuries. It is the wonderful fact that we should take in. He watches us here today; maybe He is operating here now amongst us.

J.C. Would you say that until we receive the Spirit we cannot apprehend Christ in His glorified state?

J.T. That is important to note because until we get the Holy Spirit, we are incapable of taking in these things. A person may be born again, but there is a distinction between being born again and having the Holy Spirit. You will remember that in Ephesus, Paul said to certain twelve men, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?", Acts 19:2. Well, they were converted, undoubtedly, and they were so regarded, but they had not yet received the Holy Spirit. I believe they were defective. They said, indeed, that they had not heard that the Holy Spirit had come. They had not taken in what they could have taken in, because John the baptist had spoken about the Holy Spirit too, and they professed to be John's disciples.

R.J.D. I have a difficulty in linking up these appearings with what we have today. Paul says, "last of all ... he appeared to me also". I had always thought that that closed the matter as far as that side of the appearings was concerned.

J.T. I think, I agree with you, that it does close the matter, but we cannot limit divine Persons. We cannot just say that the Lord cannot come as He came before, for He is a divine Person. He can do

as He pleases. The Spirit would have us to leave it there, and say the thing is inscrutable. We cannot compass divine Persons as we can compass each other, and speak of each other; divine Persons are inscrutable.

F.J.F. How would this be balanced by the thought that we are in the dispensation that is in faith?

J.T. It is the time of faith now; "Faith having come". Paul says in Galatians. We are now in the time of faith, and it is the principle on which we are moving in this dispensation.

W.O.S. Would these appearings have to do with what was inaugurated? The apostolic side is stressed in these verses.

J.T. That is good. The five hundred are not apostolic, but what you say is important, that the apostolic side should be stressed, and the first one that is appeared to is Cephas. Undoubtedly the name Cephas indicates assembly material. The Lord had in His mind assembly material when He appeared to Cephas, and then in the twelve He had in His mind, I would say, administrative authority; it was not the eleven, but the twelve, therefore it was after Matthias was appointed to the apostleship. Then He appeared to above five hundred brethren at once. This would mean the general thought of the brethren, the Lord had them all in mind. What a glorious thing it was to Him to have so many, and then Paul adds to that, that some of them have gone to be with Him! He says, "most remain until now, but some also have fallen asleep". Then He appeared to James, that is to say, to one man, as if the Lord would take up some man for some purpose; He is able to do that at any time, and James would represent that. James is regarded in that light after Paul came in; Paul went to Jerusalem and had to do with James. Then it says "to all the apostles".

The Spirit of God says "to the twelve" and then later to "all the apostles". The word 'apostles' is evidently used to convey authority. They were twelve men who had a certain character of their own, knowing the Father and the Son. The Lord would appear to them in that capacity, in the capacity of apostles, and then Paul says further, "last of all, as to an abortion, he appeared to me also", possibly alluding to what would happen to the Jews in the future; Paul as representing the nation being taken up prematurely, but anyway, he is one of the apostles here. He says, "He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, whom am not fit to be called apostle, because I have persecuted the assembly of God". Paul is emphasising himself in this way, that he is an odd sort of man, not just one of a crowd, and yet he is the greatest of all of them, and his work is greater than that of all of them.

W.S.S. So that the thought of these appearings is fundamental to the dispensation.

J.T. Quite so. I do not think it will have application to the Jewish remnant in the future, or even to the great multitudes that are spoken of in the book of Revelation from among the gentiles. I do not think there will be any such distinction put on these. The apostle is here bringing out distinctions that belong to us in the assembly.

F.J.F. Do you think that his being caught up to the third heaven was also a time when he saw the Lord?

J.T. Possibly he did, but that is not brought out in the account that he gives of his experience. He said that he heard unutterable things, things that were not lawful for man to utter, and the Lord sent him a thorn for the flesh, that he might not be exalted above measure. He said that he did not know whether he was in the body or out of it, so

that the matter must be left there. It was an inscrutable matter to Paul, and it is a good thing to recognise that which is inscrutable.

W.S.S. Mr. Darby says somewhere that all Scripture has in it the germ of what is infinite. It is a great help, I feel myself, to remind ourselves continually in having to do with divine things, that we are in the presence of the inscrutable.

READINGS ON 1 CORINTHIANS (4) PART 2

1 Corinthians 16:1 - 24

J.T. Certain features of truth have been stressed amongst the saints during the last year or two; if not here, elsewhere, but I believe here too, and one is this matter of the collection, to use the language of 1 Corinthians 16, the collections for the saints. The brethren in this country are apparently acting on the same principles as elsewhere; but not perhaps in certain details, and I thought it would be wise to call attention to this. It may be remarked that the thought came before us in the expression in first Timothy, "Let not the assembly be charged" (1 Timothy 5:16); that is to say, certain charges, though rightly called for in meeting obligations amongst us, are not to be charged against the assembly; they are not to be provided for and met by way of our collections in connection with the Lord's supper. Our collections otherwise are not in question; the matter stands relative to the Lord's supper and what is connected with it as to the assembly. It has been suggested that charges incurred in relation to certain meetings that are held, generally of a large size, for the special purpose of disseminating the truth in a constructive way, should be provided for in our collections at the Lord's supper. What is in mind in these special meetings has reference to the truth as to the assembly rendered in testimony. It has been thought therefore that it is quite in order that the assembly should be chargeable for these three-day meetings for inquiry and instruction in the truth, such as have been held recently in Glasgow and London and are later to be held, if the Lord will, in Sydney, because the testimony, that is to say the ministry, is particularly in mind, not exactly the

opportunities for fellowship or meeting the spiritual needs of the saints in a general way, but the ministry. Such occasions may be regarded as meetings for which expenses should be rightly debited to the assembly in our collections at the Lord's supper.

F.J.F. Would this gathering here during the last few days come in that same category?

J.T. That is what I think, and I believe the brethren here do, too, because these meetings are expressly for the ministry of the truth relative to the assembly. The assembly is said by the apostle Paul, speaking in the power of the Spirit, to be "the pillar and base of the truth". The assembly is that, and therefore gatherings that take that character are rightly provided for from the collection at the Lord's supper.

J.R.v.N. And now as to food, where there is temporal need among the saints, where do you fit that in?

J.T. That is a question for the brethren who have to deal with that matter to decide; what does the meeting of need mean. It is not in Scripture regarded as the supplementing of what is already provided. The word need ought to be understood according to Scripture. In James and John's first epistle, it is in mind, and in these epistles to Corinth. The word in John's epistle is, "whoso ... seeth his brother have need", 1 John 3:17; that is the expression.

R.J.D. Our attention has been drawn to 2 Corinthians 8:14, "But on the principle of equality; in the present time your abundance for their lack, that their abundance may be for your lack, so that there should be equality". The word 'lack' has been referred to in this way as over against 'need'.

J.T. Well I think the word 'lack' in the scripture is to be understood as implying need, because the collection in mind was for Jerusalem, for the poor

saints at Jerusalem, and it is mentioned several times. The word used is from the same root as 'want' and 'penury' in Mark 12:44 and Luke 21:4. The New Translation reads 'destitution' and 'need'. It is used in this sense elsewhere by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11:9; Philippians 4:12; Hebrews 11:37.

F.J.F. Assemblies in other parts would be quite free to send help to the saints in the cities where such meetings as we are now having are being held.

J.T. Yes. Such meetings as have been held, as remarked, in London and Glasgow and are intended to be held in Sydney; they are general meetings specifically for the development of the truth in a ministerial sense.

P.L. They are exceedingly needful universally for investigating assembly-wise the truth, as sitting together over a more extended period than a Saturday afternoon would afford.

J.T. Quite so. The thought is the importance of the truth, the ministry, and the time needed for it. It is considered that three days is a period well authenticated in Scripture. The idea of 'three' is well established in Scripture.

R.L. In the meetings to which you refer, would it be in order to have a collection such as has been arranged here to meet the charge of these meetings?

J.T. Yes. They have in mind the testimony and the ministry supporting it. Paul uses the word ministry, saying "that the ministry be not blamed" (2 Corinthians 6:3); the word 'ministry' is understood in that sense.

S.P.S. You make a distinction between what we generally speak of as fellowship meetings and three-day meetings?

J.T. What are called fellowship meetings are usually week-end meetings; it may be two meetings on a Saturday afternoon. Such are much used and very useful too, and the Lord is blessing them, but

they have in mind rather the spiritual needs of those present. It has been a practice sometimes for these week-end meetings for the fares of children and families, including perhaps unconverted people, to be paid, and all that has been made a charge on the assembly. All this bears on what we are saying now, "Let not the assembly be charged" as spoken of in 1 Timothy 5, and the brethren would be wise if they were to look carefully at the facts of that chapter, seeing how the assembly is carefully guarded against unnecessary charges. It is not that the money is not plentiful in order to pay anything of that kind, but the apostle's word is to bring out the dignity of the assembly. The assembly is not an ordinary human society, it is an exceptional thing, the greatest family in the universe really, and it is so treated in Scripture, a family of firstborn ones, so that its dignity should be maintained in all these matters.

P.L. The local occasions you allude to would furnish opportunity for the expenses to be defrayed by a collection on the spot.

J.T. That is customary now and I think is recognised generally as right.

R.J.D. What is concerning us now is the question of defraying the expense of food for Great Britain and Germany.

J.T. Well I see that, but what is to be said firstly is. Great Britain is not starved, as we speak; it is not like Germany; the rations are enough to keep people alive, so that it is not really a question of need in the full scriptural sense in Great Britain. The actual facts would show that. If brethren are free to send parcels to Great Britain, good and well, to supplement what they already have, to increase their food, but the point now in question is whether there is real need and so whether the cost of such parcels is chargeable to the assembly. Then as regards Germany and other nations in Europe, the question

is, To whom are we sending the food? Are they real christians, are they walking in the truth? You cannot always be sure, because we do not know all the facts.

W.S.S. To refer to facts for a moment, the parcels are being sent from Great Britain to Germany, and are being distributed amongst the households of our brethren. These parcels are being paid for by brethren individually, although the letters which have been received in acknowledgment indicate considerable need.

J.T. In Germany I would say there is considerable need, and perhaps there is need in England, but I do not know of such need in the sense of which we are speaking. While there may be considerable need in Germany, the question arises whether the persons that get the food are all in the testimony as we might say. Of course, we are right individually in meeting need if we can, wherever it may exist, but are we right in using the collections in the assembly to meet general need? We are dealing now with a very remarkable truth and I believe it has been somewhat ignored. The phrase "Let not the assembly be charged" (1 Timothy 5:16) used by the apostle Paul has to be specially noticed. He speaks of "widows indeed" and then he says of them that if they have descendants, let their descendants look after them. They are real widows and they are in need, but the descendants are to look after them. That is what Scripture says, and then again there was evidently a list that should be used, and it is in regard to a widow. She was not to be less than sixty years of age. Well that is a remarkable thing. Why should that be? We have to stop and think. Does it agree with the assembly, the dignity of the assembly? This widow is to be so and so. She had to be marked by washing the saints' feet; she has had to be the wife of one man; and several

other items like that. Well, why should that be? It might be said by the ordinary mind, 'Well, that is nothing at all, not worth speaking of', but then heaven has a different mind, and that is the point, that we should be in accord with heaven.

A.M. Has not christendom become taken up a great deal with good works and public philanthropy, like Dorcas? Is not the assembly to be elevated above that in our minds?

J.T. Yes. The persons that were taken up with the work of Dorcas were greatly distressed when she died, but Peter put them all out. That is a very solemn thing, that people have to be put out, and it is the idea of elimination that matters. Although these widows were benefiting from Dorcas, they were put out by Peter. It was a matter of spirituality that led him to do that.

W.S.S. I have been struck with the words used in 1 Corinthians 16 and 2 Corinthians 9; the apostle says, "Now concerning the collection for the saints" in the first epistle, and "For concerning the ministration which is for the saints" in the second epistle. Is that the thought to be emphasised, "for the saints"?

J.T. That is just it. It is a question of the saints, and the word 'poor' is attached to them in Romans 15.

A.W.P. Do you think it is happier to minister to the saints abroad individually and not through the box, even though there be need?

J.T. The persons who are doing the thing are the best judges as before God of what should be done. Of course, if it is a brother or a family that are known to have need, it would be right to use the box, because it is for that purpose; only let us be sure of having the intelligence needed to govern the matter.

A.W.P. We are not generally free to contribute through the box for the parcels to England; we do it individually. The contributions to Jerusalem were for the famine. Do you think that was an assembly matter and that, properly speaking, the collection should be through the box?

J.T. I can understand that you do not send to England from the box, because, as I have been remarking, that as far as I know, and I have been there recently, they are not in need as Scripture speaks of it.

F.J.F. Do you think then, that all giving from the assembly should carry the dignity of the assembly. We are not always thinking of the dignity of the assembly.

J.T. That is what I was thinking exactly. If we get that clearly before us and weigh it over the Lord will help. What has been said I think ought to be clear to all.

J.W. I think that some years ago you said that need ought to be met, indeed would have to be met. Now if there is no need in a scriptural sense among our brethren in England, then the bounty would be sent from individuals.

J.T. Well, that is right. When a person gives he gives what he pleases, so to speak. The Lord loves a cheerful giver, but then we are dealing with a specific thing, you know, that is, the assembly and the dignity that belongs to it. It is not a common thing at all, it is dignified. And the facts stated in 1 Timothy 5 will indicate that, if the brethren will look into it.

J.W. If there is a deficit in our collections, should that be made up? If so, how can that be done?

J.T. Well, the simple thought is, that if there is a deficit in the collection that is given in the assembly the distribution should not be limited to what is

actually given. The saints have more than what is given, and that more should be taxed; that is to say, the resources of the brethren should be taxed according to what is needed.

J.W. When there is a deficit, how can you make it up? Would you go to a brother and say we want to make this up, or would it be made up by brethren together?

J.T. Well, there is nothing to hinder that. It is still an obligation. John says, "whoso ... seeth his brother have need", but that does not meet that need. It is not simply what will be given at a collection, it is what is in our pockets or bank accounts that is to be taxed. That is all I would say.

J.W. Having stated a certain amount for a certain purpose, we may get more than what was asked for. How would you deal with that surplus?

J.T. If there is more given than is needed, the question is, Why not increase the giving?

J.W. You mean, increase the amounts asked for in view of the collection. We have come to the conclusion when we have more than enough that we should carry it forward to the next occasion.

J.T. Well, I would not say anything about that.

J.W. In providing again for the next month, we would say that we have a certain amount in hand. Would that be in order?

J.T. Quite so. I have heard of brethren designating a collection and saying, Whatever is left over give to Mr. So-and-So. Whatever is left. I do not think that right at all. The arrangements ought to be based on spiritual understanding, and if we have assembly ears, we can find out what is suitably called for in any district, or with any brother who is ministering.

C.M.M. If there were a surplus at a special collection, brothers in care would not increase the

amounts which had been named to the saints. The balance would be carried forward to the next special collection.

J.T. That is quite right. I would not have any difficulty about that.

GENERATION

Matthew 15:21 - 28; 1 Peter 2:9

It is thought to speak about generation. We have to distinguish between generation, which refers to the family, and creation; both thoughts apply to christians, and men generally. It is assumed that those present now are christians, and with this belief one will have more liberty than if this were not so. The idea of generation is old, as old as man, if not older. It is applied to seen things, to physical things, but it is applied in general to persons. There are two words used in Scripture for speaking about generation, one of which refers to a circle, to an association of persons, who are near to us by natural or other relationship; the other word refers more to the origin of things. There are many families in the Old Testament referred to as generations, but not in the sense of what is now before me. There are generations in the New Testament too, especially in the gospel of Matthew. The first chapter deals with the matter very exhaustively; it mentions forty-two generations, as if God in working thus would call attention to the process by which He reaches His end; it is an end worked out through all these generations. All descended from one man, that is Abraham, not simply from God. There can be no doubt that God intended to work out through the process a perfect result, a perfect man, a perfect family. If that could have been effected without forty-two generations God would have done it, but God has elected to work out all by the Man by whom He could accomplish all things. God not only wished to distinguish Christ, for Jesus Christ is the first name in the book of Matthew, but the generations preceding Him, it is not that Christ is in the process, but Christ is reached as a result of the process in us.

Whatever we may think of the generations in detail, there was one thought in the mind of God and that was, that that family should be worked out from His point of view through these forty-two generations. Each generation has its own distinction, and every head has its own distinction.

I have elected to read from Matthew because it speaks of the very thing that I have before me. In chapter 15 he speaks about one who has no distinction at all as to generation, but is referred to by the Lord indirectly, or we might even say directly, as a dog. The word thus used in a spiritual sense, shows that the gentiles were in His mind according to their discreditable histories. It is not my purpose to enter into the negative side of the human race, but one might speak of the Asiatic race as peculiarly discreditable. Israel, it is true, was derived from an Asiatic, that is to say, from Abraham himself; but God took account of Abraham as of one who was creditable. He called him alone, as Isaiah tells us, "I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him", Isaiah 51:2. He never said that of any other. Later Jacob was blessed, Isaac was blessed, and the twelve tribes were blessed. The children of Israel were blessed, for God intended to work out His thoughts in the continuing generations through them, and to this end He called Abraham alone and blessed him. We have to take note of the nations of Asia when we think of Abraham being called alone.

In the passage that I read in Matthew we have a woman whose daughter was possessed by a demon, an unclean demon. The mother told the Lord about her daughter; she cried out to him about her daughter, saying that she had an unclean demon, but He said nothing to her, "he did not answer her a word". We have to learn everything from Christ and this is one of the things. He did not answer her a word. This is so, I might say, unendurable to the disciples,

that they would have dismissed her, but the Lord at length said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs", she answered "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table". Her words show that she had some knowledge of the truth. One of the certain things I can say at this time is that there is great need of the knowledge of the truth. The importance of the knowledge of the truth cannot be overstated, and above all the truth about God, and following that the truth about ourselves severally, and then about the whole of us together; that is, all christians.

We should understand that we are a generation, "a chosen generation", a generation specially selected by God. One is not at all attempting to eulogise the brethren; one would not do it, because of being one of them; at the same time there are none like them; they are the brethren of Christ. The Lord Himself said, "One is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren", Matthew 23:8. That is a fine word and the Lord is, you might say, eulogising His own, assuring them of what they were to each other, even as we are here today, we are all brethren. Along with others I rejoice in it myself, for I am one of them too; I should say, one of you. It was said about Judas, "One of you shall betray me" (John 13:21), so that it is good to search our hearts, in view of the possibility of betrayal of the Lord Jesus. It is most touching, that in taking up the subject of the Lord's supper in the letter to the Corinthians, the apostle says "that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: and when he had given thanks, he brake it" 1 Corinthians 11:23, 24. On the night in which He was betrayed. Betrayed by whom? He had said "one of you". I am not saying that such a one is here, for I have already intimated that I think the contrary, and I rejoice in it that we are really brethren and not

betrayers of Christ. The apostle Paul, however, in taking up the subject of the Lord's supper in the first letter to the Corinthians, says, "The Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread". The apostle said that deliberately, and with concern too, for among the Corinthians, alas, some were betrayers. They were not all real, some were without the knowledge of God. The apostle says further in writing to them that he was "in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. He was speaking to the Corinthians, for there were some of them who had done terrible things as will be seen by reference to later chapters of the second epistle. It is a most solemn thing that there should be among real christians anyone who betrays Christ.

I must refer again to the passage in Matthew 15 and the woman who spoke to the Lord saying that her daughter had a demon, an unclean demon. He did not answer her at first, but allowed her to wait, when she begged of Him about her daughter. He did not answer a word, but after some delay said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs". The children's bread! What did the Lord have in mind? The children refers to a notable people, a family, not simply the human race, but to a family who love the Lord, a distinguished family. The Lord had that in mind, and, dear brethren, we all belong to that family. We are the children; the word refers to christians, a generation, but as a family. The Lord was not ready according to His words, He was not ready to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs. The word dogs would mean that according to human standards there was not anything of importance in those so designated; they are of little or no value. The Lord said it is not meet to give to such the children's bread. The children belong to a distinguished family. But then the

woman, while passing through this searching process, is not turned aside, and the Lord valued that. If there is anyone who is careless as to these things, the Lord is not valuing your attitude. The woman was equal to the testing and the Lord loved that. She replied, "Truth, Lord". She says, so to speak, 'You may think of me as a little dog, not to be thought of at all, only to belong outside', for "without are dogs". She would say, in her heart to the Lord, 'Whatever You might say about me and how little I am, I want to say this that even the dogs partake of the crumbs that fall from their masters' table'. She answered intelligently, so the Lord continues and says more. I mention that because of the importance of brethren not only speaking intelligently, but hearing intelligently, for whatever is said we should see to it that we know what is meant. We should not speak in riddles, but say what is intelligible and plainly to be understood. Mark tells us in chapter 12 of his gospel that when the Lord saw that a man answered intelligently He went on to say more to him. It is always very interesting to read the different incidents in which the Lord goes on to speak more because of certain things in the hearers. He is influenced, I speak reverently, by the hearers. As to what I am saying now, I hope the brethren are listening intelligently. So one said "Understandest thou what thou readest?" Acts 8:30. That was Philip's word to the eunuch, a chancellor under Queen Candace of the Ethiopians. He recognised that he could not understand unless somebody taught him; it shewed intelligence for him to say that.

I would say to you, dear brethren, that we have to be taught. You may say, Well, I know I have to learn; yes, but you have to be taught. Christianity is established and continued on the principle and basis of teaching. Therefore you have to get a teacher to be taught. You are to learn by teaching

and therefore I would urge the brethren to see to it that the teaching and what you are taking in by way of teaching is intelligible to you. See what is meant, "Understandest thou ... ?" as I have said before. So the woman said to the Lord, "The dogs eat of the crumbs". She recognised her own position in saying it. The Lord intended it thus. He would not use such words if He did not intend it. He used it designedly and she was to understand that she was to take that place and she did. She says, "Truth, Lord". She understood the truth, and the truth was being taught to her; the Lord was teaching her, and she was learning. As a result He says, "O woman, great is thy faith", Matthew 15:28. I should like to be spoken of in that way as one who has great faith; not as Peter was told, "O thou of little faith", Matthew 14:31. Christianity is based on faith and great faith. The Lord said to Thomas, "Blessed they who have not seen and have believed", John 20:29. It is a time of great opposition to the truth and we need to meet it with great faith, not great teachers or great preachers. I insist on this matter of faith, great faith. The Lord said it, because of what the woman said, and her child was healed.

Well now to come to the thought of generations. This woman was of the generation spoken of in Matthew. She was a distinguished woman. Joseph is distinguished in Matthew more than he is in Luke, and he is spoken of as a righteous man; he belongs to the generation which is in my mind at this time, and this woman too, she belonged to it. She was possessed of great faith. There are few described in that sense, but she was one of them, she belonged to that generation and I wish everybody here to try and take it in, in order to apprehend what a generation we christians belong to. It is a distinguished generation and we learn in her how we come into it. She came into it, because she said, "Truth, Lord:

yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table", Matthew 15:27. Even of the children's crumbs, The Lord had spoken of the children in the sense of a great people; that is to say, a distinguished family. She spake of the dogs, the little dogs, for she was acquiring the idea of smallness in herself and others. The Lord's dealings with her were bringing out what she was in His mind and she was becoming one of the personnel of the great generation recorded in the gospel of Matthew. The Lord had lifted her, elevated her, her own words enabling the Lord to do that. In recording it in Scripture the Lord means it for us. How many sermons have been preached from it and there will be more! I am doing my best now to commend it to you, this matter of generation and how we come into it. It is by taking the low place and apprehending the Lord's teaching.

We thus come into this distinguished family. The woman laid hold of what He meant, she knew what He meant and she said, "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table". The generation I am speaking of is not simply Jewish, but a generation derived from among the gentiles, those who formerly had no generation of any dignity before God. The woman had no generation, she had no distinction, but now she has the greatest distinctions, and comes into the greatest family, a family elevated according to her own words, but by the words of Christ, "O woman, great is thy faith". The Lord leaves her with us, and we are glad to have her; you know what I mean, we are glad to have all these records left by the Lord for use in ministry, as the woman in John 12, or the one in Matthew 26 who is doubtless Mary of Bethany, whom He leaves with us. The Lord says that wherever this gospel is preached the woman of Matthew 26 is to be mentioned, for "she hath done what

she could". We are glad to have her. She is distinguished and is of such use in the ministry. We can be assured as using these persons of the quality of the ministry and of variety in the subjects that we can bring forward. The Lord has put these into our hands to use to instruct His people.

I pass on now to speak of Peter for a little while. The chapter I read says that "ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light". The apostle Peter is speaking about the Jews at that time. He was assigned by the Lord to the circumcision; that is to say, the Jews. Taking up the gospel it was in mind that they should come into this family, this chosen generation, this royal priesthood, and Peter shows ability in using adjectives, he uses a fine vocabulary in order to express his thoughts, to express the truth. Right language is essential to the preaching, essential to the truth. I suppose it began with God. In the beginning of Genesis we read of God speaking. God said, "Let there be light". He said to Moses, "Who hath made man's mouth?" Exodus 4:11. God made it. The greatest masterpiece we might say in creation. God does not belong to creation. He is a Creator, Christ is a Creator, the Spirit of God had His part in the creation. I would say that man's mouth is the greatest item in the workmanship of God in the creation; the greatest creative act of God. As brought into God's marvellous light our mouths are to show forth the praises of Him who has called us out of darkness into His marvellous light. These praises are to come from man's mouth, so that it is a question for each one of keeping his mouth. God says to Moses, Who made man's mouth? Moses did not answer that, but he answered it in time in the inwards of his heart. He said to Jehovah, "Shew me

thy glory", Exodus 33:18. That is what he said to Jehovah, and God did show him His glory. Moses saw the glory in the face of Jesus, he saw the glory of God there. He saw it on the mount of transfiguration, I would say; that is what I wish to finish with. As belonging to this chosen generation, this royal priesthood, this holy nation, this peculiar people, we are to show forth the praises of Him who has called us from darkness into His marvellous light. Peter's vocabulary of adjectives in the expression of these things is worthy of our consideration; as we look into it we shall see what words he uses and how he leads on to God and His praises. It is for each of us to lay hold of the idea of faith and to have a great faith, because christianity is characterised by great faith. Those who are characteristically true christians are those who have not seen and yet have believed. That is great faith. I am endeavouring to speak so as to force into our minds in some sense the idea of great faith. It is a time of great opposition to the truth and what meets that is great faith, great understanding, and then great teaching; that is, the teaching of the great things of God. We need teachers, for it is a time of learning, and there is much to learn before the end.

PRAYER

Mark 1:35; Judges 6:36 - 40; 1 Chronicles 4:9, 10

In reading these Scriptures, judging that three should be sufficient for such ministry, I have in mind to speak about prayer. It is a very wide subject, and therefore I do not intend to attempt to cover the ground indicated by the word, but rather to look at specific prayers, which I apprehend should mark us. We are apt to say prayers, formal prayers, and to limit ourselves to them. God does not grow weary of prayers, even although they be repeated; at the same time I apprehend that He looks for variety in our prayers, and that He looks for sympathy with Himself in our prayers. The exercises entering into prayer and the service of God are many and varied, so that fresh thoughts are in order in our prayers. I only need to recite Solomon's prayer to indicate how varied prayers may be. It was a very long prayer, but I do not at all advocate long prayers in public, audible prayers, but prefer brief ones covering what may be urgent at any given time, and as covering what is urgent our prayers should include current events in the whole world, current happenings in it.

Now I turn to Mark, although seeing it was the subject of prayer it might be thought that I should turn to Luke, because Luke is more priestly, if I may say so. He affords us more detailed instruction as to prayer than any of the evangelists; in fact he is the one, and the one only, who tells us of the disciples who asked the Lord to teach them to pray. We are told in Luke 11 that the Lord was praying in a certain place. This is quite in keeping with general scriptural facts, that prayer should be at a certain place or certain places, and so it is that the brethren with whom we are walking together have on our

Monday evenings special prayers, and the Lord blesses these, for as I know, the brethren always leave the room refreshed. That is to be expected because God makes us joyful in His house of prayer. He makes us joyful at other times too, but He does so specially in His house of prayer. It is Luke who tells us that at Philippi there was a place where prayer was accustomed to be made; it was by a river.

I cite these matters, because they are actual examples, and it is always important in ministry to base what one says on Scripture. Every Scripture is inspired of God and is profitable, and now as I am speaking about prayer, Scripture certainly is profitable for our instruction as to prayer. So Philippi is noted in that sense, and we get a word by Luke again in the book of Acts, that a certain man of Macedonia was heard by Paul in a vision to say, "Come over into Macedonia, and help us", Acts 16:9. We cannot say what the 'us' covers, but it is what I would call a prophetic voice in prayer, and one to be examined and followed. If here in Durban there is need in any particular way, and it may be there is need of help in some matter that should be attended to, then I would urge the brethren to pray about that matter, and to say to someone who can help, and has perhaps helped before, 'Come over to Durban and help us'. You will get an answer, although you may have to wait for it. Paul did. The man in Macedonia did not appear right away to him, but he did appear, and appeared in most remarkable circumstances too, when Paul and Silas were in the deepest sufferings, their feet fast in stocks, put on by the jailor, and they were suffering, but they were praising God in their sufferings. You may be sure that God will have respect not only to our prayers, but to our praises, as He had respect to the praises of Paul and Silas. They were praising God in the

jail. The jail was turned into a temple at that time. God knows how to do those things too. God would show us how powerful He is, and what He can do, what His people can do too, even although the circumstances be unusual and perhaps not suitable. I suppose this hall in which we are gathered was never so good as it is tonight with the saints in it.

God can turn uncomfortable places into comfort. It would result from prayer for whatever may be needed, and consequent praise. So Paul was praying in the jail, but in praying he praised God; he knew how to turn from prayer to praise. It is a great matter, because praise is for God, prayer too. God has pleasure in our prayers, but praise is especially for God. The Lord Jesus Himself said, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", Hebrews 2:12, the very best place you could think of. I do not know of any other place so suitable for praise to God as His assembly. Everything in it is sympathetic normally; it is the place for prayer, too. There is plenty of sympathy in it for prayer, as we prove every Monday night, but there is also sympathy with God for praise, and that was what Paul and Silas yielded to Him, perhaps unexpectedly to themselves, but certainly it was yielded, for in their prayer they praised God, and the prisoners were listening to them. Some of us have been on board ship for about twenty-six days, and we have had prayer together almost every Monday night, we have had readings of the Scriptures, too. I must confess that sometimes we found the place not quite suitable, but last Monday night, especially, it was turned into a temple, a temple of prayer. We were joyous in it, too, but then Paul and Silas found the jail turned into a temple too. God found that there. One might perhaps venture to say that it would be difficult to find an incident more interesting to heaven than that incident was, of prayer and praises. The priests

were Paul and Silas, suffering brothers, their feet were fast in the stocks when all this went on. What a pleasure to God! I am sure, dear brethren, you will all sympathise with me when I say that God is looking for, and is entitled to look for from us at all times, sympathy with Himself. We may look to Him for sympathy. He is the God of all comfort; remember that. You cannot add to all, it is the completeness of the thought, and God is the God of that, He is the God of all comfort.

I come now to Mark. As I said, I passed by Luke, but I was compelled to refer to him two or three times. I want to speak now of the Lord praying, not only praying in a certain place, but praying at a certain time. Mark says, "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day". The Lord at such a time, we are told, "went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed", Mark 1:35. You can picture the position, dear brethren, and, of course, the heart is always alert normally in thinking of the Lord Jesus in any circumstance in which He was pleased to be, but especially so when He is pleased to be in prayer. The servant in Luke 11 saw the Lord praying, I should judge. Luke says He was praying in a certain place. We are not told whether it was morning, evening or night, but that it was in a certain place. The idea of place has to be observed because it really enters into the local assembly, as stated in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, "in every place", where believers "call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"; that is where the local assembly is to be found, and calling on the Lord is characteristic of the local assembly. We have been praying together in the ship, as I have said, and reading the Scriptures, but we have not broken bread there, for I do not gather that a ship is exactly a place in the sense in which the Spirit of God speaks of those who "in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus

Christ". The character of a place is that it is a fixed position, even as the place where the prayer was carried on in Philippi; it was regular and it was a fixed position. It was a place where prayer was wont to be made, so I think that enters into the local position, but a ship does not cover the scriptural idea, hence I certainly would have no part in the breaking of bread on a ship. You may think it a small matter, but I am just seeking to illustrate what I am saying, so that we can have things right in our hearts, as to where things are to be done.

Now I am thinking of 'where', there is the idea of 'where' here; there is a desert place, and rising in the morning, long before day, the Lord went out and went away into a desert place. The word 'desert' there would signify that the place was devoid of anything that would be attractive to man naturally, not that the Lord could not enjoy things, in nature, in the creation. He never made much of it, but at the same time He was not dead to the excellencies of creation. The Lord said, "Consider the lilies ... how they grow". He knew more about the lilies than even Solomon did, for He created them, but He did not occupy Himself much with these things. Presently, as the Son of man He will put His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the land, and He will cry as a lion roars, meaning that He has power, has a right to exercise power in all the earth. "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof". It is His, and He made it, but He is not occupied with it just now. He is occupied with the assembly, dear brethren, I might say exclusively.

You may say, He is occupied with the gospel. He is, but that is just a means to an end, to bring about the material for the assembly, and the Lord has the assembly in mind. He loves it. He is going on with it: "he is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber", we are told in Psalm 19, and "rejoiceth

as a strong man to run the race". If He goes forth "as a bridegroom", of what is He the Bridegroom? You may say, that may be Israel, but I think the Spirit of God would direct us to the assembly. The Israelitish bride will exist, of course, but I do not think it will be an eternal thought, but the assembly will be, and that is the thing for us to get a hold of, that we belong to what is eternal. We are not simply those who know about it, who read about it, but we belong to it. So the Lord going into the desert here would imply that He selected a place where He would not be diverted, not that He would be diverted in a wrong sense, of course, God forbid that I should have even a shade of a thought as to it, but at the same time there were things that the Lord would avoid at certain times, and we should learn to avoid them too; they may be right in themselves, but we should learn to avoid them at certain times especially. So when the Lord selected a desert place, early in the morning, to go out and pray, we want to see just what is meant in all that, and whether it has any application to ourselves in this matter of prayer. Another matter that comes up in relation to it is. Do we know anything about fasting? I quite freely say, dear brethren, that I am not very accustomed to it, but I do see that the Spirit of God would lay upon our hearts to learn how to fast.

The Lord says of a certain difficulty, "This kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting", Matthew 17:21. A special kind of power comes through fasting as allied to prayer too; and I think this is something which we should have laid on our hearts, dear brethren, this matter of fasting. Perhaps we shall get more answers to our prayers, realise more power in them, if we do. Of the Lord here, it is said, "In the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place,

and there prayed". It is a special selection. You can see the Lord looking for the place, and He found it, and He went to it, and then He kneeled down. I verily believe all these things are true. The attitude of prayer would be seen too, for we are told that He kneeled. I do not say that we should always kneel, because we are told to stand praying sometimes, but I can visualise that the Lord of glory allowed Himself to be written about in this sense, that He went out early in the morning, got up from His bed wherever He slept. He was at Bethany, and in the morning there was a fig tree there and there were no figs on it, and He cursed it. It shows what circumstances would lead the Lord to do. Are we accustoming ourselves to get the manna before the sun is up? The Lord went out, according to Mark, and selected a certain time early in the morning to pray. We are not told how long He spent in prayer. In Luke we are told on one occasion that He prayed all night.

I want to go on to Judges 6. I am singling out first the Lord Himself, then Gideon and then Jabez. Gideon's is specific prayer. I would urge the young people to pray specifically, not just going over your usual prayer. Our lives and circumstances change, and change comes of necessity into our prayers. Gideon was engaged in the Lord's work, which was most strenuous. I could say much about Gideon. I think the allusion in 2 Corinthians 4:7 is to Gideon. The breaking of our earthen vessels, our bodies, which are liable to die, corresponds with Gideon's pitchers. Our earthen vessels are broken through discipline and death; perhaps through age or sickness or whatever it may be that weakens us, but the light shines. One would not simply suppose that his light shines merely because he is an old person. It is as the earthen vessel is broken, that the light will shine, and the point is to disallow all that pertains to

mere nature in the body, which hinders the light. Gideon is an example of this, and now he is in a strait, and in his strait he has a specific prayer, and it is this: "Gideon said to God, If thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said, behold, I put a fleece of wool on the threshing-floor; if dew shall be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the ground, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said", Judges 6:36, 37. God had said He would do this, and Gideon was moving on that principle, that God was helping him, and using him, and his prayer is just to implement what is going on. God was helping him in what he was doing, and he was doing a great work. We are engaged in a great work, and however small we may be in it, beloved, the work is great nevertheless; it is of God, of Christ, of the Spirit. As Solomon says, it concerns a great people, too, not that we should eulogise ourselves, save in the light of what I am saying, of what the saints are as the handiwork of God, they are a great people in that sense, and God so regards the saints.

So Gideon was in a strait, and he thought he would prove God. Apparently his faith was not just as strong as it might be, and who is ready to say that his faith is always as strong as it might be; we read of great faith. We have spoken of it elsewhere; one ought to covet that, and great faith at all times, but especially at specific times, and this is the point with Gideon; he had faith, but he wanted great faith. Gideon said unto God, very simply, "If thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said, behold, I put a fleece of wool on the threshing-floor; if dew shall be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the ground, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said". He had a good basis for his prayer, for God had said He would do it. In order that the testimony may go on

we may be sure that God will do what He has said. Gideon was concerned that he might be in the thing thoroughly, and not be fearful in it. He was a man of great courage, but he is relying on God and what He had said. "As thou hast said", is the ground he is on with God and he tells Jehovah what he would like to be done, that is to say, that there should be dew on the fleece only and it be dry on all the earth beside. "Then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said. And it was so".

Now, dear brethren, I want you all to take that into your hearts, that it was so. Gideon simply asked God to do this, and it was so. The matter happened, and why should it not happen in my case; in any specific cases? One could mention specific cases in one's history, but I do not want to do that, for there is not one here who could not also mention specific matters in his history when God has answered. It is a question of what may be needed, and whether we get to God, so that the thing may happen. I want you to weigh that over. Get to God, as Gideon did; whatever it be that you are urgently in need about. Gideon is an example for us; he is set down as a man of faith, as the writer of the Hebrews says. "Time would fail me to tell of Gedeon" (chapter 11: 32); he had others also in mind, who, as Gideon, acted by faith. He was one of the men of faith, who did things for God. God acted to confirm his faith, so that, as he asked God for something, it was so. What he asked for, that there should be dew on the fleece only, would mean that the blessing was limited to Israel; that fact was seen in the history; for years and years, the blessing of God was on Israel. God had been with Israel and the nations were left out.

The woman in Matthew 15 who cried to the Lord for her daughter was one of the nations, and the Lord did not listen to her. He did not answer a

word. Later in answer to her urgent appeal He says, "It is not well to take the bread of the children and cast it to the dogs". Now that was the position of Israel, and the nations. In Israel the blessing of God was known, and will be again too, presently; it is not there now, far otherwise. "I will hide my face from them", God said, and He is hiding His face from them, but presently God will unveil His face to them, and will cause His face to shine on Israel, but He is not doing it now. Gideon asked Jehovah to do this to the fleece, and God did so. But Gideon says. "Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once! Let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it, I pray thee, be dry upon the fleece only, and upon all the ground let there be dew". This speaks of what has come to pass, the blessing of God has gone out to the gentiles, and it has departed from Israel, and things have gone on those lines ever since the rejection of Christ by Israel until now. It is a gospel text truly and rightly so used. The present is a time of blessing for the gentiles. Gideon's second prayer, which also happened, was that the fleece should be dry, and that the earth should be blessed. "Upon all the ground let there be dew", that is the present time, and it says: "God did so". These are specific cases, and it is for each of us to prove that. Firstly, "it was so", and secondly, "God did so that night".

The passage in 1 Chronicles 4 says that Jabez was more honourable than his brethren. If a brother today is more honourable it means that he is more devoted, and God will not fail to honour devotedness in a brother or a sister. "And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me!". In this case it is directed to the God of Israel. Today He

is the "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" who raised Christ from the dead, and has chosen us in Him. That is the present time. Elijah said to Elisha, "Thou hast asked a hard thing, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee", 2 Kings 2:10. He had asked for a great thing and he got it. So it is here. He says: "Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed ... And God granted him that which he requested". He was specific, and he got his request that he should be blessed richly. He was not small in his thoughts. The Lord said to His own, "Ask, and ye shall receive". Let us learn to ask, especially in specific matters, because God will answer us. He knows the agony of soul and what you want to have, and He will give it to you.

I hope what I have said will bear fruit, for these services are nothing if they do not bear fruit. We are to be attentive while the ministry is going on, and if we lay it to our hearts, the blessings will come. Let specific prayer be in relation to the assembly, and what God and Christ and the Spirit are going on with. We can hope to get answers to all specific requests on those lines.

DIVINE TEACHING

Hosea 11:4: 5; Ephesians 2:10

The subject in mind is divine teaching as applied to the walk of a believer. There are many things taught of God, for God Himself teaches. He teaches through His servants, and indeed, He teaches the saints, through one another, but it is formally stated that God teaches, and that He teaches all His people. The word in mind, as it is in John's gospel, chapter 6, is, "They shall be all taught of God"; the 'they' of course, would be believers. It may indeed come out later as to Israel and as to men generally in the millennium, because the millennial period is to be a time of great light and knowledge. Indeed it is said that as the waters cover the sea, so the earth will be covered with the knowledge of the Lord -- a very great promise, a very encouraging promise, and one to be kept in our minds, especially when there is so much ignorance abroad. In the prophets it is said, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" (Hosea 4:6), which is a very humbling thing to be said of God's people. There is no reason why there should be a lack, because the knowledge of God is available. It is available in various ways. If people are ignorant, it is largely because they will be ignorant, as Paul says of one, "If any be ignorant, let him be ignorant". You may say, that is a very hard thing to say, but then there are people who are wilfully ignorant, and will not be instructed. So he has to say to the Corinthians, although he tenderly thinks of them and serves them, he has to say of some that they were "ignorant of God" -- a serious thing to be said that people are ignorant of God. That is not because God is not known, for He is; the Lord Jesus has made Him known, and yet it had to be said of some in Corinth, that they were ignorant of God,

and this ignorance showed itself in the denial of resurrection.

Well, as I said, John's gospel makes much of knowledge and teaching, and one of the greatest statements as to knowledge is that "they shall be all taught of God". If there is anyone here who is ignorant of God, or ignorant of these things, then the word is to search the Scriptures; they are available; Bibles are cheap, and if any be devoid of knowledge, then get a Bible and read it. We are told that a certain man called the eunuch of the queen of Ethiopia was reading the Bible on his way from Jerusalem down to his own country in the south. Philip, a servant of the Lord, was directed to join the chariot of this man -- He had been up to Jerusalem where there ought to have been plenty of knowledge as to God and Christ, and as to the Lord, but he was returning from Jerusalem untaught, but reading the Bible. Philip as he joined the chariot said to him, "Understandest thou what thou readest?" It is not enough simply to have a Bible and read it, but there is need for understanding what you read. As I was saying, the prophet says, "They shall be all taught of God". I would say the persons alluded to are believers, nominally so any way, but they shall be, not that they ought to be, but "they shall be all taught of God". If it be not so today, it will be so, that the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord. Wonderful thought! But then presently there is a peculiar time of knowledge, and knowledge of the highest order, of the choicest quality, and that is what is in mind in this meeting, that there might be increase of knowledge in the souls of the dear brethren who are here.

As I said, the teaching that is in mind is about walk. We are not to be content simply with our knowledge of the holy page or even of the ministry that is current amongst the people of God. We must

apply it to walk, meaning walk in the sense of one's ways and customs and relations and associations, and that means that each one has to be really a christian, and not simply a professed one; not simply that you can say you are a christian and not a Jew. Sometimes that is said. Advertisements are made for services or helpers or workers, and the addition very often put is 'Christian', which means he or she is not a Jew or a heathen -- I am not thinking of that kind of profession. I am dealing with the christian profession in the true sense of the word. Knowledge, divine teaching, is available to us as christians as regards our walk, so that we shall walk aright, and I have taken the passage in Hosea, because it tells us that Jehovah had taught Ephraim to walk. Ephraim was one of the sons of Joseph, but the mention of the name here refers to the ten tribes. What he really implies is Israel, and that God had taught Israel to walk. In the same chapter we are told that God had said, "Out of Egypt I called my son", Hosea 11:1. This refers not only to Ephraim then, but to Israel as a whole, and the passage is applied in Matthew 2:15 to our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. He had been in Egypt.

Some of us lately, having a prayer meeting on the ship, were talking about Egypt, and how much God has had from time to time in that country. I should say, in this country, for we were speaking more of Africa at that time. God's Son, the blessed Lord Jesus Christ, had gone down into Egypt. God would take Him out of the way of Herod, the wicked Herod who would have destroyed Him. Another scripture is brought in there in the second chapter of Matthew to speak of Rachel, the weeping of Rachel. About what was she weeping? She was weeping about her children. She was not exactly weeping about Christ. The word to Joseph, the reputed father of Jesus, was to take the little child

and His mother and flee into the land of Egypt. Joseph was the reputed father, and Mary His mother, and the word to Joseph was, "Take to thee the little child and his mother, and flee into Egypt". You may say, Why take His mother with Him? She was the right person to take care of the Lord at that time, and He was taken care of. I refer to that, dear brethren, to indicate the way things are presented in Scripture. How the idea of the divine teaching is applied in Scripture and particularly to the walk of the believer; when I say the believer, I mean every believer. God has furnished instruction for every believer as to how he is to walk and please God. It is said, moreover, He teaches the believer how to love. We are taught of God, we are told, how to love one another, and if we are not loving one another then we have to consult God about that, because He teaches us how to love, but not only how to love, but how to love one another. It does not say just there that He teaches us how to love Himself, but no doubt He does, but it does say, "Ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another" (1 Thessalonians 4:9), and there is no part of the teaching more necessary, more needed, dear brethren. There is no greater need than to learn how we should love one another.

Now I am speaking, as I said, about walking, about how we can walk, and how God said that He taught Ephraim to walk. It was not that Ephraim was lame or halted like Jacob. Jacob halted on his thigh. God made him to halt, but He did not take away his power to walk. Jacob was able to walk, and he had instinct and discernment as to how to guide cattle, to know that cattle should not be overdriven, and if the thought is applied to believers, if believers are viewed to be the cattle, they should not be overdriven. That is to say, older brethren should not be severe on younger ones, because that is

what Jacob meant. He said the little ones must not be overdriven, and that is very important here, the children, the lambs of Christ, because that is what they are called. The Lord said to Peter, "Feed my lambs", "Shepherd my sheep", "Feed my sheep". They had to be carefully handled and attended to, for they might fall out of the way, they might be lost. We were reading this morning in the epistle to the Corinthians, how we are saved, and amongst the things mentioned is the gospel, the word of the gospel by which we are saved. Other things are needed too, for salvation, but the word of the truth of the gospel is needed, and needed to be followed too, if we are to be saved.

Well, now to come back to my scripture as to how Ephraim was taught to walk. I believe the allusion is to the book of Numbers. The book of Numbers, the order of it is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, the fourth book of Moses. I have no doubt it was in this order that the books of Moses were written according to divine direction. The book of the Revelation was written by divine direction too. You remember how the Lord Jesus taught John, the writer of the book of Revelation, how to write the book, and if we are to understand the book we must study the order in which the book is written. The book was written by John, the writer of the gospel, and the Lord taught him how to write the book of Revelation. He signified to His servant, to His bondman John, not simply an apostle, but a bondman. You will all understand what that means, and it applies to every true christian. He is to be a bondman of Jesus, and His bondmanship is easy, it is not severe; His burden is easy and light. "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest ... for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light", Matthew 11:28 - 30. It is most attractive, and I would like everyone to come under that burden;

it is light. We are invited to come to Jesus, and as I said. John was taught by the Lord how to write the book. He is a remarkable writer, John the evangelist. He was one of the apostles, but he does not make a show of his apostleship. He puts Jesus in the front and he speaks of himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved, a more precious and beautiful title than that of an apostle. He styles himself the disciple whom Jesus loved. You may say, he was special. In a way, he was, but you can be special, and I can be special, and I have taken advantage of it too, for I know much about the love of Jesus, but I am not wishing to occupy you with myself, yet it would be a poor thing for me to be speaking as I am now unless I knew in reality the love of Jesus, and I urge upon every young man and woman here to get to know that love, "the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge". Get to know that love. John the evangelist knew it; he is "the disciple whom Jesus loved".

Well, the Lord taught John how to write the book of Revelation. If anyone becomes interested in the book of Revelation through what I am saying and has the desire to understand it, there is always a reward for one who reads that book. If you read the first chapter, you will see that there is a blessing for those who read that book. Jesus taught John how to write it, and the order of the instruction of it was "the things thou hast seen". That is the first thing, what he saw. Wonderful things were to be seen, and he saw them, then the things that are, then the things that relate to the coming terrible experiences that are threatened against this poor God-forsaken world. I said God-forsaken, because the whole world lies in the wicked one; that is what Scripture says. Terrible thought! Not that everyone in it lies in the wicked one, far otherwise, and I would say that the powers that be, the rulers of this country, and other countries, are not amongst them. They are not

regarded as lying in the wicked one. We here tonight are not lying in the wicked one, thank God. We are in accord with the mind of God. We are pleasing God in being here.

In the first chapter, as I said, the Lord did teach John how to write the book of Revelation, and the first thing is "what thou hast seen" and then "the things that are". We have to learn what these mean, and then, "the things that are about to be after these". There are three phases; "what thou hast seen", "the things that are", and "the things that are about to be after these". They are a fine matter of study for every young man and woman here, and for the old brethren too. The old ones, I believe, really are acquainted with the book of Revelation generally. The teaching needed to write the books of Scripture began as Jehovah taught Moses how to write the Pentateuch, and He taught David how to write psalms. I do not say he wrote them all, but he collected many, I would say, and made them publishable, made them usable for believers at all times, that they might be comforted by the book of Psalms. David had that task, but Moses had the task of writing the Pentateuch, and we are now dealing with the fourth book, and it refers to the walk of God's people. God taught His people how to walk in the wilderness. It was no easy matter to go through the wilderness, because there were no roads, and there were no motor cars I need not say; there were no signposts on the way. It was just what it is called, a wilderness, and I believe the original title of the book I am speaking of was just this, 'In the wilderness'. Israel was in the wilderness, and God taught them in the wilderness how to walk, and hence they found their way into Canaan. Israel found their way out of Egypt through the Red Sea and over the Jordan into Canaan. This is what happened, and

spiritually it applies to ourselves. It is a time of being taught how to walk.

In order to clarify what I have been saying, I refer to the first chapter of the book of Numbers. Israel are numbered; all the males from twenty years old and upwards, not all the women and children but all the males from twenty years old and upwards, are first and were to be taken account of according to their pedigree, another important word. That ought to have a searching effect on every one of us as to what it means spiritually, what a spiritual pedigree means. One has to show it if one is to be recognised by heaven, that I have a pedigree that is according to God. The numbering began in the second year after they had left Egypt, in the second month of it, in the first day of the month, and the numbering was by Moses and Aaron, but they were to have with them head men of every tribe in Israel. It was to be accurate, it was to be taken in the sight of heaven, as one might say, in the presence of the universe. These people whom God had brought out of Egypt are to be taught how to walk, but first they must be numbered, and numbered accurately by Moses and Aaron, and by one man out of each tribe of the children of Israel.

The pedigrees given are of the most remarkable company of people that ever appeared on the earth, but there in the wilderness, without any houses around them. Israel had cattle, of course, but it was a wilderness, and the numbering began there by Moses and Aaron and by one man, a named man, out of every tribe, and the numbering began according to the order of the tribes. They were all mentioned, Reuben and right down the line. They were all numbered. That is the first thing they have to learn, and in connection with that they have to learn the idea of a pedigree. Well, you say, what does it mean for me? Well, that is what I want you to think

of and ask too, when the time comes for it. You must have a pedigree. There must be some good ground for your claim to christianity. You cannot get the information at the City Hall. The City Hall does not keep any such records. It does keep records, I know, of children, of men and women and children, but this record is to be of the males only and from twenty years old and upwards, six hundred thousand men from twenty years old and upwards. They were not rationed, and there were no clothes made for them, but God preserved their clothes, and gave them bread from heaven. That is the idea. Wonderful! But more wonderful when we apply it to ourselves, for we are the very persons that are in mind. I would say to you everyone here, learn your pedigree, learn the reality of your conversion, that you are born again, and then born of God; that you know redemption, and you have real faith, faith in the Lord Jesus. Then that you have the Holy Spirit, the greatest gift given to men. He is to be yours, as a believer. I do not say, yours simply automatically, but you should desire it because it is part of the gospel, it is part of the truth, and you should know the truth. The Lord says, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free" (John 8:32), and what I am talking about is just the truth. We have got to learn our pedigree, and that idea includes all that I said; it includes the knowledge of redemption and especially the gift of the Holy Spirit on the ground of believing in the Lord Jesus Christ.

The next thing is the learning how to walk. Many walk a good deal when holiday-making in the summer time, and summer time is coming on in this part of the world, and there will be a good deal of walking, going to the seaside, and such like, but what I am dealing with, beloved, is how to walk, not at the seaside, not for holidays. Pardon me, I am not going to put you under any bondage in that sense.

It is all very well to get fresh air, but there is often too much time spent in such pursuits. We want to know how to walk even as God taught Ephraim how to walk. He took him by the arms; very beautiful expression indeed. I will read it again in Hosea 11"I it was that taught Ephraim to walk -- He took them upon his arms". That is what Jehovah did. He took them upon His arms; what a beautiful thought, showing the interest that God had in His people, taking them upon His arms as a parent would a child, so as to teach them how to walk. Then it adds, "They knew not that I healed them". That is to say, they were defective in that sense, but then it goes on to say in the fourth verse, "I drew them with bands of a man, with cords of love". Think of that.

Following up the thought of pedigree, let us think of what is said here as to being taught how to walk, and the tenderness of Jehovah in taking you by your arms, and it is further said drawn by bands of a man. That is how He did it. You may be in the burning sun of the desert and the heat and other things like that. God took pains to take the Israelites by their arms and to draw them by the bands of a man. I have no doubt that the man was Moses and Aaron. Moses and Aaron would represent all these things, the tenderness with which they took care of the people of God in the wilderness, and the antitypical teaching, dear brethren, is for every one of us tonight, so that we may be taught how to walk. God Himself would teach you how to walk along with the brethren. First of all to take the ground of being a christian, and then as confessing the Lord, get the Spirit, and further as confessing the Lord, come into fellowship, that is to say, let yourself become attached, not unattached, to the Lord's people. Link up with them vitally, recognising the Holy Spirit, and walk with them. Walk with the

brethren, do not walk with others. It is a question of associations, and of those that you can walk with. Let us walk with the brethren, seek them out, and find them, and when you find them, walk with them.

Well, the next thing that I would say as regards the teaching of how to walk in the wilderness is in the second chapter of Numbers. I will be brief, at least, as brief as possible, so as to get through, so that we will not be over the usual time. The second chapter of Numbers has in mind the military position. In fact in the first thought of pedigree the numbering of each family is also military. The military idea is in the age of twenty. It is just the beginning of the first age, not the dying age, but they are beginning to live, as I might say, by the Holy Spirit, because antitypically that is what twenty years of age would mean; that the believer has the Holy Spirit, and as having the Holy Spirit that he is part of the military. He has part in the defence of the truth, not only of the walk that is suitable to it, but the defence of the truth. He is not to get out of step in the ranks. He is to learn how to walk, and to keep rank, as it says in Scripture. There were one hundred and twenty thousand who came to David who knew how to keep rank, how to walk together and not have diverse principles or methods. As Paul says, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", that is to say, all the assemblies are to be governed by the same principles, and it is a question of walk, how we walk together. If one gets out of step with the brethren he is in danger; God would say to such, You are in danger if you get out of step with the brethren in the wilderness. You may be lost in the wilderness, you may fall in it, and there are many such. With many of them God was not well pleased; they were strewn in the desert, a terrible thing. The bodies of nearly six hundred thousand of them were strewn in the desert. How awful that is, but

how awful is lawlessness in a christian, or in a nominal believer, so what I am saying is a most serious warning to every one of us.

In Numbers 2, "the Lord spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard". That is a military thought. He is to learn his place in relation to the tribe he is associated with, and to pitch by his own standard, take a place by his own standard. There are many deviations at the present time, people saying they are this and that, and there are so many denominations, perhaps a hundred different kinds of denominations in professed christianity. A very humbling thing to think of, but there is really only one assembly. The word church in Scripture is generally the word assembly, and the word assembly means persons who are called out of the world and linked up with the saints, those who are saints by divine calling, linked up in the fellowship of God's Son, and so it is here that each Israelite was to pitch by his own standard. On the march he would not get out of step, or he would become lost in the wilderness. He would know how to keep rank and walk with the brethren. Where are you, may I ask? Where are you morally, where is your fellowship, where do you walk, with whom do you walk? Are you walking in the light of God? Only as in the light is fellowship according to God possible. If you are not walking in the light, the word comes to you, "What fellowship of light with darkness?" The apostle Paul says, "What part for a believer along with an unbeliever?" 2 Corinthians 6:14, 15. These are questions to be answered by every one of us. The answer is, that there is no fellowship between believers and unbelievers, there is no fellowship between light and darkness. So it is a question of walking in the light. We are to be taught how to walk in the light as God is in the light, and when we do, we have fellowship one with

another. That is the idea in chapter 2, the standard by which we are walking.

Well, brethren, I only want to add something about Ephesians 2. The verse read says, "We (meaning christians) are his workmanship [that is, God's workmanship], created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". They are not modern things, modern methods, they are things before ordained of God. "We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them". They are not novelties, beloved, they are not things that anybody could take on and engage in as he pleases. He cannot do as he pleases on these lines. God has created beforehand certain things for the believer, certain methods and ways in which he is to walk now. Why? We are not told how old they are, but they are what God has before ordained, that we should walk in them. Well, you can see the character of the things that God has ordained for us as to our walk. We have to consider what anyone may call us into, or ask us to do. Was it before ordained for me to walk in? It cannot be if it is a worldly thing. Let me give it up therefore; renounce it. You will walk with power if you renounce it. You are brought on to the highest possible level as to walk; in fact, you are walking with God. The first man specially commended in the Bible in this sense was Enoch; he "walked with God". Of course, Abel did, too, but he was slain. He died for his testimony, but Enoch was not slain, he went to heaven without dying. Did you ever think of that; a man going to heaven without dying; he is there yet. We must think of these things; Enoch is there with Elijah too. Elijah went to heaven without dying, and we may go to heaven without dying presently; all christians living when the Lord comes will. The Lord Himself

shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up in the clouds to be with Jesus. You say, Is it not wonderful! It may happen tonight, or at any time. The Lord has not fixed the time. Heaven knows, God knows, Christ knows, the Spirit knows, but otherwise we have to leave it, but it is very imminent; that is the point, and our walk enters into the matter. We are to be taught how to walk with God and how to please God. That is what the first epistle to the Thessalonians speaks of, and the same epistle says that God teaches how to love one another; these two things we are to be taught, how to walk and please God, and how to love one another.

Ephesians would go higher than that and say God has prepared a walk for us, prepared it before time. God has prepared works, too, that we should walk in; that we should exercise ourselves in. He has created these works. He has created ways for believers to walk in, and it for us to walk in them, dear brethren. It is a time of reality, the very time when the imminence of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is kept before us by the Spirit. The word speaks to us of those who love Him, those who love His appearing, and I want everyone here to think of it, to come to really love His appearing, and at the same time to walk so as to please God, as it was with Enoch. He "walked with God; and he was not", meaning that he was translated. He was not, because God took him. Beautiful thought that one man should be taken by God in those days, and that before the flood, in antediluvian times. There was one man taken up into heaven without dying, and it was because he walked and pleased God, and he is an example for us to be that now. We are at the very end of the dispensation, and the point for each

one of us is to walk and please God, for soon we shall be translated, and the joy of pleasing God in this sense will cease. It says of Enoch, "Before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God", Hebrews 11:5. May it be so with each one of us, dear brethren.

Pages 141 to 536 -- "The Testimony of Grace and Judgment". Australia, 1947 (Volume 174)

THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (1)

1 Thessalonians 1:1 - 10

J.T. The suggestion of the epistles to the Thessalonians is made with a measure of consideration and thoughtfulness, and particularly because they speak so much of judgment. It is thought that perhaps brethren have not sufficiently weighed the situation that has arisen in the present conditions among the nations, and then the conditions among the saints too, that the idea of judgment has not been taken into account sufficiently, especially in the light of the book of Revelation which was written late, as it is said, "Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to shew to his bondmen what must shortly take place". That book contains most awful judgments, and they are not imaginary; they are real; and the Lord would, I believe, stress the thought of judgment. This epistle and the second epistle are especially intended to stress this thought of judgment, especially the persons at whom the judgments are directed, giving distinction as they do to the whole course of history, for the whole course of God's government issues now in the present situation among the nations. It need hardly be said that we are thinking of the assembly, and its part in all this, and how much we are to be instructed as to it, and ready for it. Then there is the remarkable address by the apostle to this assembly, which is called the assembly of Thessalonians, as if to remind us that localities and nations and what is found in them cannot be ignored in our public services. And so the Thessalonians have a great place, but they are peculiarly addressed; that is, not the assembly at

Thessalonica, but "the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". So that the Father has a great place in the epistle, and the epistle itself shows what a great place the assembly of Thessalonians had in the heart of God, reflected in the apostle in the most endearing terms. Hence the thought of nations and cities cannot be ignored in our consideration of holy Scripture, because God has written Scripture in relation to history, and geography too. So that we are not to be indifferent to what the characteristics of Thessalonica were, and then, of course, what are the characteristics of the place in which we are today, and how much these characteristics have to be considered if we are looking into Scripture.

Rem. What you are stressing, if I gather it rightly, is that the peculiar conditions of countries or certain cities are to be taken account of in the ministry.

J.T. I think they are. And the best illustration of that would be: "Cretans are always liars", Titus 1:12. That was the characteristic that had to be contended with in the ministry. It is therefore a question of any nation represented here, or country, or the one in which we are gathered, what its characteristics are. So in chapter 4 of the book of Acts we have the thought of "this city", that is to say, Jerusalem, the one they were in, where the Lord Jesus had been crucified; so we have to take account of what the characteristics are in this sense, and be intelligent about them.

Rem. The apostle says in regard to the Cretans, "This testimony is true", and he takes the testimony of one of their own countrymen.

J.T. Quite so. An ordinary citizen of the place.

P.H.H. The cities of the nations coming up before God for judgment, and each one being treated

apparently differently, would be in line with your thought.

J.T. Very good. The cities of the nations fall, we are told. A very terrible thought, because so many gatherings of the saints now are in cities; in fact the growth of a city has assumed enormous proportions in our times as compared with what a city used to be, these proportions involve difficulties as to boundaries and other matters. So we do well to have all this in mind in our consideration of this scripture.

P.H.H. In connection with that, would the places which the Lord mentions, as for instance in Matthew 11, with their differing characteristics be before us? He speaks, for instance, of Capernaum being raised up to heaven.

J.T. Especially those places where He had been Himself. He had resided in Capernaum. He came from Nazareth and went to Capernaum, and hence the mighty works that were done there. The same principle would apply to many of us here, where we reside, and what we are to contend with. The pronouncement of woe is really in line with what is in mind. "Woe to thee, Chorazin! woe to thee, Bethsaida! for if the works of power which have taken place in you, had taken place in Tyre and Sidon, they had long ago repented".

P.L. Are the Thessalonians prepared in relation to this matter of judgment, by Paul's first utterance among them in relation to supreme judgment, "Opening and laying down that the Christ must have suffered and risen up from among the dead", Acts 17:3?

J.T. And then this final word here, "Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath"; that is the final word in this chapter. Opening and laying down is a matter of great importance, because opening would mean the unfolding of things, even as it is said of

Moses, "began Moses to unfold this law", Deuteronomy 1:5. Opening would be the unfolding of the truth, and then the laying down would be the authoritative assertion as to it, that it was so, that it was authoritative, which is very important too.

A.J.G. Would this allusion in the last verse to our deliverer from the coming wrath imply that the fact that there was wrath to come, had a place in Paul's ministry at Thessalonica?

J.T. That is what I thought; it was in his mind, especially the Lord's coming as connected with it, which is referred to in every chapter.

A.J.D. Is the day of judgment brought to bear upon us now, in order to set us free in our spirits?

J.T. It certainly has a place in the testimony of the gospel of the word of God; and that raises a matter that one has thought of considerably; namely, that there is very little open-air preaching now, hardly any, and yet it is a good opportunity for asserting judgment. Indeed it is more convenient and suitable to assert the judgment of God publicly than to do it in the meeting rooms.

A.J.G. Paul said, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men", 2 Corinthians 5:11.

J.T. There it is, terror; that comes in in connection with the judgment seat of Christ.

J.P-sn. In the beginning of the Acts, the apostle exhorted those who believed to save themselves from this untoward generation. Judgment was coming in upon the Jews. Should that have part in our gospel testimony to men today?

J.T. Quite so, and especially in view of what is said in the epistle to the Hebrews, and what is said as to the nations receiving the glad tidings at the end of the book of Acts. Paul reasoned with the Jews all day with but little result from it, which is indicative of the present situation among the Jews. There is really very little result from them in the gospel

testimony. They reasoned the whole day with the apostle, and he has to quote Isaiah 6 to them, showing the terribleness of the judgment that awaits them. It seems as if that is what should be before us too, the matter of public testimony, and the convenient time for announcing the judgment of God publicly.

H.W. Would Noah, at the end of his dispensation, being a preacher of righteousness just prior to God's judgment coming in by the flood, and then the prophet Malachi speaking about God coming in in judgment. Jehovah coming suddenly to His temple in the way of judgment at the end, support what you are saying?

J.T. Just so, and the promise to send the prophet Elijah, in the latter book, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. That shows that the terrible dislocation of family relations is in mind, and we cannot ignore it either, because of our own families. So that the idea of a prophetic testimony in regard of that is very important. And then Noah was a preacher of righteousness; you had that in mind?

H.W. Judgment was pending and you would expect that to enter into Noah's preaching.

J.T. Very important, because our dispensation began with public testimony in the open air, I would say, but there is not much of it now. In fact I have heard it reported recently, since I have been here, that the time for it is over, which I do not think is true.

D.J.M. Would Proverbs 1 come in; Wisdom crying without, in the broadways, and then the thought of calamity?

J.T. Very good; crying without.

Rem. While Paul waited at Athens he announced repentance and judgment, even the day being set.

J.T. That is a very good reference, because we have already alluded to the same thought; that is, the question of what was at Athens, because

Thessalonica was comparatively near to Athens. The apostle said God has "appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained". Acts 17:31. The day is fixed; it is a very good testimony, a very good text too, to bring forward in public, in speaking to men. Paul spoke to men in the open air on Mars's Hill.

Ques. Was that the result of his spirit being painfully excited within him as he took account of conditions in that city?

J.T. Exactly, that is to say the idolatry that was there. And then what have we to contend with? What terrible conditions exist among men in all the countries, especially since the last war, even in England conditions have greatly degenerated.

L.P.M. Does this reference in the first chapter to the word of the Lord sounding out from you enter into the matter?

J.T. Well, it shows the kind of thing that was needed was there -- the sounding out of the word of the Lord.

G.A. Would Peter's word link on with what you were saying, that "the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come; but if first from us, what shall be the end of those who obey not the glad tidings of God?" 1 Peter 4:17. Would assembly judgment really constitute the only evidence from God, here at the moment, of the fact that the judgment of which you have been speaking lies immediately ahead?

J.T. Quite so, and the Spirit being here, the equivalent to what is in heaven. A matter of the very greatest importance, that what is here is equivalent to what is in heaven. The announcement objectively has its answer here in the Spirit, and it is a question whether we are equal to such a testimony, and to the suffering and reproach attached to it.

P.H.H. Would the thought of intercession among the saints go alongside of this announcing of judgment? I am thinking of Abraham going to conduct Jehovah in the way and speaking to Him in intercession about Sodom.

J.T. Quite so. God recognised and felt the sympathy that He would have in Abraham, "Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do ... ?". And "that he will command his children and his household after him". He is a worthy man, a person who has a house and a family. God would honour him in proclaiming the testimony in connection with that, both in regard to Abraham and in regard to Lot.

H.J.M. As well as the testimony itself, there is the manner of men that Paul, Silas and Timothy were among them.

J.T. That leads us up to something very definite in our chapter, the phrase in verse 9; their entering in. "For they themselves relate concerning us what entering in we had to you". That phrase reminds us, besides the one you quote, of the kind of man Paul was, and his entering in. Not that he was invited or sent for, as he was in other cases, but he entered in. There was the call to him earlier from Macedonia: "Come over into Macedonia, and help us". But there is nothing of that kind here. It is our "entering in", it is mentioned twice in our book, in this and the next chapter. "Ye know yourselves, brethren, our entering in which we had to you, and that it has not been in vain"; that is to say, there was no pretension to religious distinction, or any other distinction. The apostle was in keeping with his testimony, and all that followed in Thessalonica showed what a real man he was, a real man getting down to the conditions of people.

P.L. And as thus he was very attractive; some of them believed in Acts 17, and joined themselves to Paul and Silas.

J.T. Very good. Our entering in would mean our manner in the house which we visit, and whether we promote encouragement in them, and are in accord with the conditions of the houses and add to them. Paul would be thoroughly in that as to the saints wherever he went; he would be ready to be anything to promote their comfort and blessing, so he would gather sticks.

A.E.D. Would that add to the importance of the word, "Ye became our imitators"?

J.T. Well, that goes with all we have said. "Ye", on which there is emphasis, "Ye became our imitators, and of the Lord". It is remarkable that the apostle puts himself before the Lord, as if the servant is to reflect the Lord, to make a way for Him. Indeed we read in Luke 10 that He sent certain ones before Him in His ministry, so that a way is made for the Lord in our methods and conduct in the houses.

Rem. Paul goes twice into the house of Lydia in Acts 16, finding the brethren at the end of the chapter in the house of Lydia, and stimulating them in regard to the work of God and the message that had gone forth in the prison.

J.T. Yes, she did not make it any matter of compliment that she gave them hospitality, but said, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house", Acts 16:15. They had come to the door you might say, but they were invited in. But here it is "our entering in"; that is, the general character of the entering of the servant to the place and the person he visits.

R.R.T. Would we have this matter in contrast in Abraham and Lot? There was an entering in with regard to Abraham, but quite a contrast in regard to Lot. There was not liberty in Lot's household for the entering in, was there?

J.T. Well, he was in the position of a politician and yet Peter calls him a righteous man, which is a remarkable thing, and would somewhat modify anything we may have thought about Lot, because he was a real man at bottom, although his face was towards Sodom. On the other hand Abraham was honoured in the sense that even Lot comes under divine consideration because of the influence of Abraham; "God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow", Genesis 19:29. And hence we have to learn to provide our Abrahams; not indeed to provide our Lots, because they come under discipline, yet Peter says he was a righteous man; a righteous man may have to come under discipline, and Lot was under discipline; he was not honoured as Abraham was. We cannot claim advantage because of any past history, in regard of our present circumstances; it is what is going on now, what we are now, that counts.

E.B.McC. Would verse 5 help us in that way? "For our glad tidings were not with you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance".

J.T. Much assurance. The apostle delineates just what was there in him, and so we shall find in the next chapter that they received what he had testified, as the word of God; and that they were affected by it, in that they became imitators of the assemblies of God in Judaea, which is another matter to be in our minds, that we must be universal. Any attempt to localise gift is simply to deny the universality of the truth, for gift is universal. These christians in Thessalonica imitated the churches in Judaea, far away from them; they were not purely local, they were universal in their outlook.

Rem. The gift is not the product of the place but of the Lord's own actions.

J.T. Quite so. You mean Paul was not a product of the place.

E.T. I wanted to enquire in relation to the preaching in the open air. Would the basis for it be gift? You were referring earlier to the lack of open-air preaching, but if it is taken up, it is necessarily taken up on the principle of gift.

J.T. I would think so. "How shall they preach unless they have been sent?". That is to say, it is a question of being sent. Of course there is such a thing as one offering himself, but volunteering is not a principle in the service of God. It is what God takes on.

Ques. "Woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!", 1 Corinthians 9:16. Is that a man in the sense of being sent, and in the feelings that were proper to the situation?

J.T. I would think so.

P.H.H. May I ask in relation to that if we hold the balance between being invited as you were saying, or sent, and then our entering in? Are they the two sides of the visit?

J.T. Well, being sent, of course, is wholly from God, it is God's sovereignty in taking up a servant and sending him. I should think this phrase, "our entering in", would fix itself on the spirit of the apostle.

P.H.H. I was wondering that. Would you say another word about being sent. Do I understand it is wholly the divine side?

J.T. I think it is. "How shall they preach unless they have been sent?" Romans 10:15. That is plain enough. Of course, invitations may be modified, they may not really mean the full thought. They may just mean that the door is open for you at any time, and not the full thought of being sent, but going by invitation. I think the way to get at the truth is to get the scripture, according to what it

says, wherever it speaks unqualifiedly. The word we have quoted is, "How shall they preach unless they have been sent?". That is unqualified.

Ques. Is there the thought too, "Here am I", on the line of availability? "Send me" for effectiveness?

J.T. Yes, that is from Isaiah 6.

Ques. Do you think from the servant's own point of view, that however urgent the invitation, he could not go unless he had a sense in his own soul of being sent?

J.T. Yes. We have to take account of the context of Scripture. If it does not afford the full literal thought, it is a question of what we may think, but we ought to be instructed as to the spirit of things, and very often we get quotations of Scripture in the spirit of things, in the spirit of Scripture, rather than the letter; but at the same time we cannot ignore the letter, and when it comes to a test or a crisis in a critical matter, then we have to recognise the letter, therefore "By thy words thou shalt be justified", Matthew 12:37. That is the word as to the actual literal thing, and you are either justified by it or not.

G.A. Would what you are remarking appear in Jonah? We would wonder if he had the spirit of the direction from Jehovah, but he certainly had the letter. Would that in any way connect with your thought?

J.T. Just so, he did not have the spirit of it. He had the letter. The fact of the matter is that Jonah was never in the spirit of things until he wrote his book. I do not believe he was ever right until he wrote his book. Then he condemns himself in his book, so that it is well if we write. Some do not publish anything that has been published before, or written before, or spoken before, they put it in the waste basket, but it is well to have printed anything that is worth printing. If it is condemnatory of

yourself, well let it be, or if it justifies God, God must be justified. "Let God be true, and every man false", Romans 3:4.

H.H. The word sent is used many times in the gospel of John in relation to the Lord Jesus.

J.T. You might say it is the governing thought.

H.B. Would you say that John Baptist illustrates this principle? "There was a man sent from God, his name John", and his ministry was effective.

J.T. Quite so; that just confirms what we are saying, a man sent from God.

P.H.H. Would the Levites in the Old Testament, particularly in the book of Numbers, illustrate what you are saying about the doubtful character of volunteering? God chose the Levites and gave them their service.

J.T. Yes, and giving them no salary except what came from God; God's portion was theirs (Numbers 18:21 - 24). They are honoured really in that their recompense was so nearly from God, their place was so very near to Himself. There is another thing that it would be well to think of as to the word 'Levite', it is a typical word that is used antitypically, and rightly used antitypically. At the same time the New Testament affords abundance of testimony as to the words that should be used as to the Lord's service, and hence Paul in 1 Corinthians asserts what applied to him. He is to be regarded as a ministering servant (1 Corinthians 3:5).

P.L. "Jehovah, he is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them". Deuteronomy 18:2.

J.T. Quite so, and then they had other things as you know, especially the forty-eight cities, meaning that as ministers they are to be administrators, and if anyone goes out to minister or preach, he comes short unless he can administer. The forty-eight cities would mean that they were living in cities. Barnabas was one who, having land, sold it

and brought the money and laid it at the apostles' feet. He did not give it away, he just laid it at the apostles' feet; he placed it where it could be administered. So the idea of the forty-eight cities, I believe, would be that we all, and especially young men, should be instructed in administration. And so when Paul was converted the Lord said to him, "Go into the city". Why did not the Lord tell him everything outside? He did not, because it was a question of the city, it was a question of administrative power and authority. And so He says, "Go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do". So that he had to learn what he should do from a man lower in the service than he was, or would be. That is to say, in service we have to learn to be submissive, and to learn from anyone that God may use, and whatever administrative work may be allotted to us, to do it, and not to be in any way looking for others to do it for us, but to do the thing ourselves.

H.J.M. Is it not also important that the servant should be in the current of God's feelings? Jonah was not in the current of God's feelings. The beloved apostle was very much in the current of God's feelings and he could express them.

J.T. Quite so. So that we are under God, as well as under Christ, and under the Spirit too; the Spirit is guiding us, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are operative in this great matter of administration, and sending, so the Spirit in the book of Acts asserts this. It is not asserted so much elsewhere, but it is asserted there as a matter of the dispensation; it is the dispensation of the Spirit in that sense. So that He says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" (Acts 13:2); and being sent forth by the Holy Spirit they did certain things. Surely it is a great principle of the dispensation that the Spirit is the Sender too.

W.S.S. Do the Lord's words, "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you", enter into what you have been saying?

J.T. I think so. It is the character of John's gospel as we remarked. And so in John 20 we read, "He breathed into them, and says to them, Receive the Holy Spirit" not take it. He is available, but "Receive the Holy Spirit", and then He says, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them", not they will be, but they are remitted unto them; and "whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained", so that the position is left in our hands. It is a most remarkable thing, and it is particularly in John's gospel that the administration is left in our own hands. Many things are left in our own hands, and the Lord would empower us by the breathing of the Spirit in us. Hence the wonderful character of the dispensation, which is to be borne in mind all the time. It is a question of what was at the outset, and what is now, because the dispensation is not abrogated, it still stands.

L.P.M. Are service and administration put close together in the verse just quoted, sending them and giving them the administrative competency to proceed?

J.T. Just so. It is a most remarkable chapter; chapter 20 is really, you might say, one of the most characteristic chapters of John's gospel.

Ques. In the next chapter, is their failure to recognise that, in that Peter says, "I go to fish", but not being sent, there was no prosperity in that undertaking?

J.T. Just so. "I go to fish". He was not waiting at all for any time to elapse; he says, "I go to fish", meaning that he was determined to do it, but then the wonderful thing is that the Lord does not reprove him. That is another matter that we have to take

account of in John's writings. He says, "Children, have ye any meat?"

Ques. In what you have referred to in John 20, is that the assembly, or is it the persons?

J.T. I would say the persons, but persons who form the assembly. John does not use the word assembly really. It is a question of the persons who form it, and their dignity, so that the personnel of the servants is most striking in John's gospel, such as Mary Magdalene.

Ques. Do you think the sense of the severity of the coming wrath would only enhance to us the present value of the grace of the dispensation?

J.T. Quite so. And that the writer of John's gospel and epistles is the writer of the book of Revelation; the Lord told him exactly what to write, when to write it, and the order of the book. You do not get that anywhere else, really, save in the book of Revelation, that the Lord Himself gives him the order in which the book is to be written. And then he is a bondman; he is not John the beloved, he is a bondman.

E.C.T. And near the end you get, "whosoever will"; would that be in keeping with the dispensation? "Let him take the water of life freely".

J.T. Quite so, that spreads out from a beautiful passage, beginning, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come ... he that will, let him take the water of life freely". It is as if that grand passage which is quoted there, spreads out after it is uttered, that is to say, it gives liberty to anyone, whosoever, to take the water of life freely. On the other hand, immediately after that we have, "I testify to every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any one shall add to these things. God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book. And if any one take from the

words of the book of this prophecy. God shall take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this book", Revelation 22:18, 19. And then another verse earlier says, "Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still". That, I think, is a very solemn thing, that as to the present unrighteousness, the terrible conditions of christendom, which have been going on for a long time, especially during these recent wars. God is saying, 'Let them go on'. God is saying, 'I will let them go on'. But at the same time, whoever is sanctified, let him remain sanctified. That is the point. Whoever is righteous, let him remain righteous. Let him not give it up because of conditions, but remain as he was, whereas on the other hand God is letting the wickedness proceed. He is not stopping it. This is awful, that the unrighteous conditions are to stand. God is not altering them. He is not going to reform the world at all. He is just going to let it go, and that is the idea of the present moment, the time of the end, that there is such a thing as those conditions present. Hence we need not look for very much from politics, or from statesmanship either. The condition, therefore, has to be looked into, and of course the reaction is towards ourselves as to what we can do in these things, and that is, if one is righteous, remain so; if one is sanctified, remain so, do not give it up.

P.H.H. That would give great encouragement to all the saints to go on outwardly and inwardly with all that God has given us in the assembly.

J.T. Well, that is beautiful, most cheering, that we can go on with our assembly meetings, for God is with us in it.

P.H.H. And the righteousness would bear upon the public testimony in the midst of a good deal that is dark and unclean, even in high places?

J.T. Indeed it does. Those of us who travel know it too, how testimony, however small, bears on what is current.

Ques. Nabal went on with his unrighteousness and unholiness, and Abigail in close contact with it went on with her exercises, would you say?

J.T. Very good. She was commended so highly and rewarded, too, in becoming the wife of David.

Rem. It is noticeable in the beginning of Luke how he outlines to Theophilus the political situation in such detail, and yet John is in the wilderness outside of it all, and the word of God comes to him and things proceed in relation to the incoming of Christ. Is that our hope, what God is doing? It says in the third chapter, "Now in the fifteenth year of the government of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod tetrarch of Galilee, and Philip his brother tetrarch of Ituraea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, in the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came upon John, the son of Zacharias, in the wilderness". I thought it was a little remarkable that so much should be made of the then politics of the day, and of a man who was outside of it all.

J.T. Quite so. It is said of him that he dwelt in the deserts, so that he had no comforts.

J.P-sn. In the second epistle to the Thessalonians, Paul writes of those who have found pleasure in unrighteousness, but he says, "We ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, that God has chosen you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth". Is that what we see now coming to light in the Thessalonians?

J.T. "God has chosen". Quite so.

A.J.G. Do you think that the sixth verse of this first chapter helps in view of the conditions in the world to which you are referring? It says, "Having accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit". Is not joy of the Holy Spirit an important feature in sustaining faith in view of conditions around?

J.T. Yes, that is so. One of the greatest exercises that one has is the question of joy, joy in the Holy Spirit, so that one is superior to whatever happens. Another thing to note here is the fact that hope is much stressed in verse 3; the apostle says, "Remembering unceasingly your work of faith, and labour of love, and enduring constancy of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father; knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election. For our glad tidings were not with you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance". The idea of hope is greatly stressed, although it is not found in the address in the next epistle, which is a distressing thought, really, but it is greatly stressed in this chapter; the enduring constancy of hope, because it is the thing which will sustain us in the pressure that is current all round; the hope of the coming of the Lord, really, or whatever else it may be, what God's thoughts are as to us. That is one of the thoughts that was in mind in proposing this epistle; that is, it is the epistle of hope, the enduring constancy of hope, as well as love.

J.S. Would you say that the Thessalonians would learn quickly? I was thinking that the ministry of late has been that we should learn quickly, and I thought it was touching on our times. Three weeks put them on a high level, did it not?

J.T. That is good. I think we were speaking of that somewhere, where you were present. This question of hope is so important, because it enlivens us,

it keeps us going brightly when things are oppressive outwardly.

G.A. Why does the apostle in the second epistle refer to it as everlasting consolation and good hope through grace? "But our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us, and given us eternal consolation and good hope by grace, encourage your hearts, and establish you in every good work and word". Why would the apostle in that way intensify the quality of hope?

J.T. Well, that was his prayer for them, it was what they were lacking in. It really takes the form of a prayer for them, whereas in the first epistle the thing is there, the enduring constancy of it. I suppose he was concerned that there was a lapse when he wrote the second letter, and so he introduces much in the way of vengeance in it. And that they should rest with him when it should come; that, of course, would enter into the prayer that they should be kept in hope of the coming glories.

C.F.I. The thought of election enters into this, "Knowing, brethren beloved by God, your election". I thought the purpose of God would come in, in relation to that, and be in the minds of the saints.

J.T. Quite so. It was there. They were in the good of the testimony that Paul rendered, the elect of God; it is a comforting and most precious thought for us that we belong to the elect. Much depends on the elect as to current happenings and happenings in the future. If it were not for the elect, no one would be saved, showing how great a place the idea of election has; it is for us to lay hold of it.

E.B.McC. Should it be noted that they became imitators of the apostle and of the Lord, and that the word sounded out from them?

J.T. It is beautiful what he could say of them, "The word of the Lord sounded out from you, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but in every place";

notice the idea of place; "in every place your faith which is towards God has gone abroad, so that we have no need to say anything; for they themselves relate concerning us what entering in we had to you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath".

E.L.G. In some small meetings the gospel is not preached, the brethren feeling there is no gift. Other small meetings have taken it up in extreme weakness with no sense of gift, but desiring to testify to the preciousness of Christ Jesus, and it has been stressed that the saints have no sense probably of having gift. Would that be right?

J.T. That is a question for investigation. You are suggesting a case of the kind, but then the next thing would be to investigate the matter because we cannot be sure without investigating. It is a great matter with God that we should investigate. Is it really so, that there is no gift? The word in Ephesians is "Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ", Ephesians 4:7. Well, what does that mean? Does it not mean that every one of us could say something in the way of testimony? The specific gifts, of course, are added to that, but every one of us has gift in some sense. If he has the Holy Spirit there is something, and so with a woman like Anna, she spoke of Him to all that looked for redemption in Jerusalem. Even a sister could do that.

F.W. Doing the work of an evangelist, even though not having the gift of one?

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. I was wondering whether the principle "if the readiness be there, a man is accepted according to what he may have", might apply in such a case.

J.T. It does indeed.

A.E.D. And the word, "Be urgent in season and out of season"?

J.T. There is another one that fits in. How many evidences we have of sisters and others who cannot be said to have gift in this specific case, but yet they have been used in blessing to others. I know of many.

D.J.M. The little maid is an example.

J.T. Very good. She was moved, she was impressed, she was feeling the thing, which would be the point. "Oh, would that my lord were before the prophet that is in Samaria!". The exclamation shows that she is feeling about the thing.

W.S.S. There is hardly a suggestion of gift in this first chapter, and yet it says, "The word of the Lord sounded out from you".

J.T. That is what I was thinking. The idea of sounding out is not exactly preaching.

A.C.S.P. Is your thought that as current local conditions are dealt with in ourselves, and amongst the saints, it would make for power in testimony to men?

J.T. Undoubtedly. The neighbours will notice it, because things begin locally. Whatever begins with God begins locally somewhere. It is a question of what the labourers are, what is there. And so it is a question therefore of the brothers and sisters in the place, and even the children are often a testimony; those going to school are often a testimony.

P.H.H. Would serving the living and true God include the service of the glad tidings in a general way? I was thinking of Paul's remark in Romans, God, "whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son".

J.T. He served in his spirit; very good.

P.H.H. So that the words, "How ye turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and

to await his Son from the heavens", would give a complete picture of the results in that place.

J.T. Very good, I would say, specially the thought of a man serving in his spirit; there is, for instance, Paul in the ship, and his extraordinary experience on the voyage to Malta, what he said, not his preaching, but what he said, what he was. He became the master of the ship, you might say. He acquired such influence. What an influence he asserted! It was a question of the government of God, but the position in the government of God becomes an occasion of testimony.

E.T. You drew attention to the word 'place' in verse 8. Would you say something additional in relation to that, bearing upon this city with its many meetings.

J.T. Well, the address to the Corinthians reads, "With all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours", showing that it is a local idea. Things begin locally. God's interventions begin somewhere, and it is a question of the place being affected, and then its yield in what is of God. Therefore the idea of place is of extreme importance, and you have to go over a country like this to understand what is in a place, the little meetings here and there; some of them are very small, I know, as indeed in every country. Well, what are the facts? In order to gather up the enrichment that God has, we have to take account of whatever there may be, what there is in any given place.

Ques. It says of the Lord that He prayed in a certain place (Luke 11:1). That place would have been blessed in relation to His prayer, would you say?

J.T. Quite so. Undoubtedly He had in mind what preceded it and that is what Martha was, in chapter 10. She was a difficult woman at the time. She complained about the Lord Himself and no doubt that

ought to be considered as entering into this matter of the Lord praying in a certain place. No doubt He would say, 'I ought to pray where Martha is'. But then John would say that there is some result, because he makes more of Martha than Luke does, which is remarkable.

W.S.S. The faith of the Thessalonians had gone abroad to other places. Does that suggest the importance of the local position at any place as affecting other places? The way we are moving in our own locality has a bearing upon other localities.

J.T. Quite so. You have gone afield now yourself, and others of us have; it is a question of what we are doing where we have come from, and what we can do now where we are.

W.S.S. I was thinking of the Thessalonians as being helped at the beginning to understand that their position was not merely local, but had a bearing on what was universal.

J.T. Very good. So that our testimony locally is to be known, and then as we go abroad, it is a question of doing something there.

THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (2)

1 Thessalonians 2:1 - 20

J.T. It is thought that we might well devote our time to this chapter in view of the remarkable affection shown by the apostle for the Thessalonians which it discloses. We have already alluded to the high level of the first chapter: "Paul and Silvanus and Timotheus to the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". There can be no doubt that the apostle intended to set a standard for us, for all the saints, in all times, as to the seemly relations between those ministered to and those who minister. Then there are the allusions to his own sufferings in Philippi and the effect of those sufferings on himself. "Having suffered before and been insulted, even as ye know, in Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the glad tidings of God with much earnest striving". That is a word not to be overlooked, earnest striving in the apostle's soul as speaking to them.

P.L. Did he, like Jacob as prevailing with God, now prevail with the saints?

J.T. In the section alluded to, Jacob said to Esau that the young cattle would die if they were overdriven one day, which is a tender allusion to youthful affections and weakness, so that we are to be patient with the saints and not strain them.

A.J.G. Does the allusion to "the assembly of Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" imply that they had a special place in the tender affections of the Father and of the Lord?

J.T. I thought that. The word in Revelation 22:17 that we have already alluded to says, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". What a level was reached in the work of the Spirit in the saints viewed

as the bride! the nearness with which she could speak, the nearness to divine Persons. The Spirit and the bride, the Spirit speaking with the bride and the bride speaking with the Spirit show the level to which the work of God brings the assembly; that is to such nearness to divine Persons.

A.J.G. Do you mean that Paul was near to divine Persons here in his affections for the saints and that in his ministry he would bring that about in the saints?

J.T. That is just what I thought. It is a question of tenderness of feeling, and affection in the ministers, as to those to whom they minister.

P.L. "I drew them with bands of a man, with cords of love; and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I gently caused them to eat", Hosea 11:4.

J.T. And He said in that chapter in Hosea, "And I it was that taught Ephraim to walk". There is an allusion to a little child being led along by his parent or parents into boyhood or manhood. No doubt the wider allusion would be to the order of the tribes, the order of march of the tribes, and the tenderness of Jehovah in leading them forward in the wilderness.

D.J.M. Did the tribulations of the Thessalonians, the manner in which they suffered, endear them to divine Persons (1 Thessalonians 1:6)?

J.T. I am sure that is the truth and shows how the Father and the Son and the Spirit enter into our sufferings, however small or great.

P.H.H. Would the ark going before them according to Numbers 10, taking the brunt of the opposition, illustrate this?

J.T. Yes. That was much better than the proposal of Moses to make Hobab their guide in the wilderness. That was not to be compared with the ark going before them in the three days' journey,

which suggested the tenderness of Jehovah in leading them through the wilderness, not only teaching them to walk, and the feelings that were in keeping with it.

Ques. Do you see those feelings also in that God did not take them by a short way lest they should see war early and be discouraged?

J.T. That is in exact keeping with what we have been saying; it was lest they should be discouraged by seeing war.

Ques. Would the authority suggested in the reference to Christ's apostles be balanced by what Paul says, "But have been gentle in the midst of you, as a nurse would cherish her own children. Thus, yearning over you"? Does that suggest the affection that was in evidence in his service?

J.T. That was one of the thoughts that were in one's mind; "a nurse ... her own children", and then there is a further allusion in the chapter to a father his own children. "As ye know how, as a father his own children, we used to exhort each one of you, and comfort and testify, that ye should walk worthy of God, who calls you to his own kingdom and glory" (verse 11). One was struck with each one being spoken of as the object of the apostle's care, not simply as a flock, but each one, which would be in entire keeping with Jacob's suggesting to Esau that the young cattle should not be unduly strained in taking the journey that he proposed.

H.W. Are these divine feelings coming out in the ministry with the intention of securing subjective results in the way of formation?

J.T. That is what I was thinking, that the minister is to take the pattern that the apostle furnishes, because he is the leader really; the Lord intended him to be the minister of the assembly, bringing the saints on to the level of heavenly relations -- what they will be, what will be expressed in the assembly unitedly in the coming day. It is the training time

now, the nursing time, during which we are being brought up in the tender affections flowing from divine Persons.

H.W. Is this part of the processing that you have spoken of in another place, having in view the formation of bridal features and feminine affections?

J.T. Just so.

P.H.H. Jehovah said to Moses about the people, "Carry them in thy bosom, as the nursing-father beareth the suckling, unto the land which thou didst swear unto their fathers", Numbers 11:12. Would that combine these two thoughts of the tender care in service, and then the high level of the objective in the land?

J.T. Which would fit in with the peculiar allusion to espying the land as it were unexpectedly, and deciding that it would be fit for Israel. Jehovah said He espied it for them and designed that they should have it (Ezekiel 20:5, 6). So that the state of things in Canaan has to be kept in mind, what God has in mind for us, "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him". But then they are revealed, "even the depths of God", so that the saints are thoroughly with God, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, in all this, and in view of our eternal abode.

Ques. Is it remarkable that the quotation made from Numbers 11 arose through the murmurings that were present? Do you think the tests of the way are to bring out the reserves that God has in affection in the ministers?

J.T. Quite so. It is like Paul's allusion, in the remarkable account of his labours, in 2 Corinthians 11. "Who is stumbled, and I burn not?", he says, showing how, as reflecting the heart of God in regard to the saints, he observed what might happen to them, and was affected by it. All is to bring out

this great thought of pattern for us in those who serve.

L.P.M. Is this all the unfolding of that which you spoke of this morning as "our entering in"?

J.T. It includes that. That is just what we get at the very beginning of the chapter, "For ye know yourselves, brethren, our entering in which we had to you, that it has not been in vain".

L.P.M. Is that in view of their final going out in the rapture, the apostle entering in in this manner to secure a perfect outgoing?

J.T. I think it is one of the great features of the finish, because there must be a finish to the dispensation. There must be a finish, and the finish of the work is undoubtedly going on, and no doubt this epistle being couched in such tender language is intended to form us, so that in the fourth chapter we have the actual coming of the Lord for us, not to us, as today when we are in assembly, but for us. "The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven". It is not without significance that this epistle is designed to prepare the saints for this great fact.

P.L. So that in Deuteronomy, on the eve of entering Canaan, so to speak, there is great tenderness of spirit with Moses, his doctrine distilling as the dew: "Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk", the care of a bird's nest, and so on, all to verse the saints in tender feelings in view of Canaan.

J.T. I think so. It is in keeping with the great characteristic of Deuteronomy, that it is Moses. It is Moses himself. It is not, "Thus saith the Lord", as in Numbers and Leviticus, but Moses himself. That is the character of the book of Deuteronomy, to direct us to the feelings and expressions of Moses himself. So that it is said in chapter 1 that he began to unfold the law. "These are the words which

Moses spoke", not what he was told to speak, but which Moses spoke. It was himself, the man that had been with them all the time, and would have gone in with them too; he was full of the affections suited to the place. In fact he is allowed to see the land, and to see it as the tribes would inhabit it, as the tribes would be seen in it. So "these are the words which Moses spoke to all Israel on this side the Jordan, in the wilderness, in the plain, opposite to Suph, between Paran and Tophel, Laban, Hazeroth and Dizahab. There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir to Kadesh-barnea". Deuteronomy 1:1, 2. Showing that everything is measured, measured you might say, by a father.

Ques. Does that account for the fact that he was so readily accorded a place of kingship at the end? "He was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together".

J.T. Quite so. It is a question of righteousness, I suppose. For an upright people, it was suitable to have a king like Moses. He had proved his kingly qualities in all that way.

A.E.D. Does that find expression in Paul? "I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ", and very soon after, he refers to a man in Christ.

J.T. "I myself". In speaking of the man in Christ he is lowly enough to say that he did not know whether he was in the body or out of it. We have to think of the mystery entering into that word, but then there are the affections of Paul. You get it, you might say, constantly, especially in the epistle to Philemon. What feelings are expressed there!

Ques. You referred to "each one". Does Paul, when he calls over to him the elders of Ephesus, not only outline the course of things to them but all his feelings as entering into it, as he says, "Wherefore

watch, remembering that for three years, night and day, I ceased not admonishing each one of you with tears".

J.T. That is good. Especially because that chapter, Acts 20, begins with love, begins with Paul's embrace, and ends with their embrace of him. And then there is the raising of Eutychus in the middle of the chapter. In fact it is a great love chapter, the very centre or heart of the book of Acts. Hence the suitableness of the embrace, the feelings between himself and the elders, as he departs from them.

Ques. In the list of gifts given by Christ as described in Ephesians 4, the gifts of shepherds and teachers appear to be combined. Is that exemplified in the apostle in the matter to which you refer?

J.T. Just so, it is one gift. So that the shepherding is undoubtedly the feature of it. Shepherds and teachers. Shepherding is undoubtedly the initial idea, and then the teaching is a stronger thought, but an essential thought, because children, after all, however you shepherd them, have to be taught. Even if it be a school of Tyrannus they have to go, but at the same time shepherding secures everything, and hence the Lord says to Peter, "Shepherd my sheep". There is the feeding, but there is also the shepherding.

H.H. Does all this mean we are being loved into these things?

J.T. Quite so. We are loved into it, but then there is the element of love in us, or it would be very ineffective. The principle of love, I mean to say the basic thought in a person, is the new birth. All that we are speaking of follows that, but the new birth must be there, or there is nothing at all of God. You would say that?

H.H. Yes. The affections of Paul, as of old the affections of Moses to the people of God, all result in response.

J.T. Therefore the work of God has to be taken account of in its initial idea, in its initial thoughts, and the Old Testament of course helps us in that, because of the place the Spirit has in the new birth. The Lord calls the attention of Nicodemus to the new birth. Apparently he did not develop in it himself, which is often the case, but it was there, it was in him and John 3 is to bring out the depths of things; that is to say, the love of God; that "God so loved the world". The basis in man is the new birth, and there is a response in the person born again. It is really born anew, or entirely afresh, and the whole person is affected. Perhaps that is where the great defect is in the development of the saints, the want of the knowledge of the new birth and of how much God in His Spirit enters into it Himself. It is a question of the Spirit of God.

H.H. It was in that way a very great matter that the Lord took up with Nicodemus, a master of Israel, and yet everything had to be started all over again on a new line.

J.T. "Thou art the teacher of Israel and knowest not these things!". Knowest not; and yet undoubtedly the thing was there in himself.

C.F.I. What is involved in the glad tidings of God?

J.T. That would be expressed in the word of God. "Thus, yearning over you, we had found our delight in having imparted to you not only the glad tidings of God, but our own lives also". A remarkable thing, as if the glad tidings of God required such a statement, that Paul's own life was bound up with the Thessalonians. Well, you might say, God Himself is bound up with the Thessalonians, because they are "in God the Father".

C.F.I. They turned to God from idols. Does God become the object thus?

J.T. Just so. That is what we had this morning: "To serve a living and true God, and to await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath". So the Godhead is much stressed in that, as involving our deliverance from the coming wrath.

Ques. Is it noteworthy that whilst Paul pursues such a positive line, he mentions several things that did not mark him. He says, "For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile", and later, "For we have not any time been among you with flattering discourse". Are they, so to speak, landmarks so that we may avoid dangers?

J.T. Yes. I would say negatives involving positives. They involve positives, every one of them.

Ques. In verse 4 he says, "Even as we have been approved of God to have the glad tidings entrusted to us". Does that apply in principle now?

J.T. Well, what is a man, if he has not something entrusted to him? Paul had this greatest thing, you might say, entrusted to him. He speaks in his second letter to Timothy of this trust, that he had committed to the Lord, "to keep for that day the deposit I have entrusted to him".

Rem. He also says, "According to the glad tidings of the glory of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted", 1 Timothy 1:11.

J.T. We shall never find much in anyone who has not a sense of having a trust, something worth holding. The apostle said he had committed it to the Lord. So that it was in safe keeping, but the responsibility for it was with him.

Rem. I was thinking of God in that way jealously guarding the glad tidings. They are so precious in His sight that the persons to whom they are entrusted must come under His approval.

J.T. Quite so. Trustworthiness would, I suppose, enter into all confidences.

J.P-sn. Is the work of God seen in evidence in the servant? He spoke of himself, in writing to Timothy, as having been an insolent and overbearing man, but here he is commending the glad tidings in all its fullness in the way he has presented himself to the saints at Thessalonica.

J.T. Just so. He was worthy of the trust; hence he can speak in Colossians also of what was committed to him, and how he completed the word of God. He finished the thing in keeping with the Lord's own way of finishing, and probably part of the weakness of our position is the want of finish, as is suggested in Psalm 133, "the hem of his garments". There is no doubt we have come to the finish, and all these things that we are seeking to go over together are to lead us into the idea of finishing; God has come to the time of finishing and chapter 4 of this epistle is to show that the Lord Himself is about to come down too. He is coming Himself and He is not going to catch up an unfinished assembly. He is going to have a finished one, and therefore we have to make up our minds for quick work before the end.

P.H.H. Would the repetition of the glad tidings of God here in this chapter mean that the whole mind of God is really to be before us in the gospel?

J.T. Quite so, and I observed the brethren have a notice outside this hall that the word is preached on Lord's day evenings. The word is, "Proclaim the word", as the apostle said, and it is a most penetrating thought. It is to bring out the depth of the thing, and so Paul said, "Proclaim the word".

R.H.G. With reference to your suggestion as to trustworthiness, have you in mind that it is as we are developed in feelings according to God that we become trustworthy to God?

J.T. Just so. John's gospel I believe is the great part of Scripture that stresses the idea of trustworthiness.

In chapter 2 it is said, "Jesus himself did not trust himself to them". Though they believed in His signs He did not trust them, because what could be trusted was the new birth, not any mere knowledge, but the new birth. Therefore the word "cannot" is attached to it, "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God". And then he cannot enter into it. So it is the new birth and all that follows on it by the Spirit that warrants trustworthiness.

Rem. You mean it is wholly and solely the result of the work of God and our becoming identified with it.

J.T. It is new. It says "born anew". It is throughout. It is a question really of the thoroughness of it, the reliability of it.

H.H. How does eternal life in John 3 stand in relation to new birth? The Lord goes on to that.

J.T. He goes on to it because of the thoroughness of the basis. It is a question of what is basic and what is reliable. He can speak freely and fully according to His own point of view, "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal".

Ques. Do you see trustworthiness in a sister in Mary Magdalene who received a communication to take to the disciples? She said that she had seen the Lord, and that He had said these things to her. She does not take the place of teaching. Would you say she is most trustworthy and comely as a vessel?

J.T. I would say that, because she had already indicated her trustworthiness in the way she referred to Him as "Rabboni". One who could speak of Him to Himself from that point of view is trustworthy; that is to say, she has taken on the right Teacher. We not only need right teaching, but we need a right

teacher, we must have a right teacher; it is not a creed, which may be well in itself, but it is the person who teaches that we have to think of. Mary had in her mind that He would be her teacher, my Teacher. Nicodemus was the teacher of Israel, but what could be based on his teaching? He did not know even the elements of divine teaching.

Ques. Did the Lord express all the tenderness of our chapter when He came to her and said, "Mary"?

J.T. He called her by name. I suppose at first the Lord intended it to touch the depth of her being, so that He called her by name. He had called her, 'Woman', but when He said, 'Mary', that was the word that conveyed what she was really. I believe in the root of that word there is the idea of bitterness, what has been gone through in learning the truth, and coming into contact with Christ.

L.P.M. Would the sufferings of the Thessalonians alluded to in verse 14 of our chapter have some parallel? "For ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus, for ye also have suffered the same things of your own countrymen as also they of the Jews".

J.T. It is remarkable, the use of the word "countrymen", and then the terrible result in the Jews, wrath has come upon them to the uttermost. It shows how little can be relied on in the idea of country, according to this world. "Your own countrymen". Their relation is characterised by sufferings, it was causing sufferings, so that national feeling is of little worth, as any one who relies on it will find, even natural as well as national feeling is unreliable.

A.E.D. Would this element of trustworthiness in the Thessalonians work out in scope for the word of God as including whatever may be current at the moment? The previous verse refers to "even as it

is truly, God's word, which also works in you who believe".

J.T. I think we do well to examine that a little, because it works out in the universal constitution that had been wrought in them. We spoke of it this morning, that they imitated the assemblies in Judaea; they went far afield, showing they were becoming universal in their outlook; the word of God would effect that. It is "God's word, which also works in you who believe. For ye, brethren, have become imitators of the assemblies of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus; for ye also have suffered". This matter of the assemblies being imitated shows that we can imitate what is of God in a distant country; we should not be national in any outlook that we have, thinking that what we have ourselves is all right, whereas it may not be. There may be some distant work that is more right, more useful, and more according to God, so that we do well to examine into the general work of God as to what it may be.

H.W. Does this feature of suffering found amongst the saints provide an attractive feature for the Lord Himself? I was wondering whether we could link it up with the Song of Songs 5:1, "I am come into my garden, my sister, my spouse; I have gathered my myrrh with my spice". Is there something for the Lord's heart seen in the saints suffering locally for the testimony as suggested in the word myrrh? He gathers His myrrh with His spice.

J.T. No doubt the woman in Luke 7 would represent that in the way she anointed the Lord with myrrh.

H.J.M. What bearing has the truth of divine judgment on all this? Has it a sanctifying effect?

J.T. I am glad you bring that up, because it was one of the main thoughts in introducing this epistle. What an awful thing divine judgment is! The word

"wrath" here is used first as to the general feature of it, "Our deliverer from the coming wrath", but now it is applied to the Jews, God's ancient people; for it is said here, in verse 16, that "wrath has come upon them to the uttermost". How terrible it is, that in spite of all that had been shown to them, as we have been speaking of it in Deuteronomy, that God's wrath has been expressed towards them! We see it all around us in all that is happening in Palestine and in Europe generally, how the government of God has pursued them. There is that which can be called wrath in its treatment of them. And yet all Israel shall be saved, so that there is something to work out in our souls as to the word "wrath" in regard to the Jews. No other family on earth is treated this way. God pursues them in His wrath, and yet He pursues them also according to His counsels that all Israel will be saved. It is another feature for us to think of, but the general thought of judgment in this epistle is very striking. And the general thought is attached to the Lord's coming too, because the idea will synchronise in His coming, as we shall see in the second epistle, in verse 5 of chapter 1: "a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that ye should be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for the sake of which ye also suffer; if at least it is a righteous thing with God to render tribulation to those that trouble you, and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, when he shall have come to be glorified in his saints, and wondered at in all that have believed".

We can see, I think, a distinction between wrath as applied to the Jews in this chapter, having come upon them to the uttermost, and wrath as applied to christendom. There is no mitigation at all as to the application to christendom, because the book of Revelation shows the totality of the judgment of God coming upon christendom; that is to say, those who have had the glad tidings sent to them; whereas I suppose the wrath that is spoken of here as following the Jew will not be final. All Israel will be saved, for God is true to His counsels, to the promises made to the fathers.

P.L. So that the angel "cried with a strong voice, saying, Great Babylon has fallen, has fallen", Revelation 18:2. That is irrevocable.

J.T. "And her smoke goes up to the ages of ages". Revelation 19:3. There is no mitigation of it at all. That is the terribleness of the judgment that is to come upon all around us, and so the need of preaching the gospel to men that they might be saved, at least that some might be saved.

P.H.H. Even the judgment as depicted in the book of Revelation in the hands of the Lord, belongs to Him as "The Word of God". I am referring to the name the Lord has in Revelation 19"And his name is called The Word of God". Does that mean that we are receiving the revealed mind of God about it?

J.T. I thought so. His name is called "The Word of God". He comes out as the King of kings and Lord of lords, but the Word of God is a most penetrating thought.

P.H.H. Is it your mind that the title of the gospel here, "the glad tidings of God", several times repeated, would cover a good deal of scope so that we have considerable liberty in going over God's thoughts in the gospel? I am enquiring whether in the gospel we should open up the great things of

God, corresponding to the land, and on the other hand we should open up the judgment of God according to what you have referred to in the Revelation?

J.T. Yes, because judgment is the alternative to the blessing.

H.H. In Romans 11 it says that all Israel will be saved, but would you say a word as to the apostate side? That does not come into salvation does it?

J.T. Oh, no, it does not. It is a question of what the Jews are as exposed to that judgment. When it says "all Israel" it means the number of the tribes; "our whole twelve tribes serving incessantly day and night", as Paul says. We have to understand that. It is a question of God's purpose, that what He has committed Himself to He will fulfil, but the judgment against the unrepentant Jew will be terrible.

Ques. Do you see the penetrating effect of the word of God the first time it is mentioned in Genesis 15? "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision". All that follows in that chapter is of very real heart-searching character, and God says the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

J.T. God is reserving judgment there, holding His hand, as it were. He is holding His hand, because the iniquity of the Amorite was not yet full. I suppose the iniquity of the Amorite will be seen in the apostate Jews.

Rem. It was a very searching time for Abraham when he was spoken to in this way, and he seems to answer with divine instinct, to the searching character of the word.

J.T. Quite so. So that he had to go through a horror, a great darkness. It is a remarkable thing that Abraham the great progenitor of Israel, of the Jews, should have to go through that, and then that the time is given during which it all should happen, four hundred years. Scripture has to be

carefully compared to make this period to agree. What is stated in Genesis 15, is, of course, the truth as to the actual years they had to spend in the judgment of God in Egypt. To link with what we have just been saying Abraham himself would be buried in a good old age, he would go to his fathers. The Lord says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and was glad". So that we have to see how the working of God according to His counsels works out in Abraham in that chapter. The wickedness of the Amorite had to be fulfilled, but that God would be patient enough to wait for that time, to express what He is in relation to the evil, is remarkable.

Ques. Does Paul in Romans 9, verses 6, 7, state the truth very concisely with reference to Israel. "Not however as though the word of God had failed; for not all are Israel which are of Israel; nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children". Does that clear up the difficulty that may exist in some minds in regard of all Israel being saved?

J.T. I think it should, because it is a question of actual truth that the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. What He has committed Himself to in regard of Israel, the promises made to the fathers, stands. What may happen to some who are of Israel is another matter, but there is great discrimination in regard to God's dealings with Israel, discrimination that is not found in regard of the gentiles.

R.R.T. As to this matter of wrath, it says in Romans 1:18, "There is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men ..." How does that stand in relation to what we are speaking of now as to wrath?

J.T. It shows that God is God, and morally what answers to His nature, as we may say, must go through in regard of everybody. The lake of fire is

the great finality of the whole matter, as to judgment. It is a lake, a limited place, and whosoever is not found written in the book of life is cast into it. The first to be there are the beast and the false prophet, showing that the terrible judgment of God is not to be stayed. He may be patient, and is patient, but when these two appear according to the second epistle, their doom will be the full expression of God's wrath against human wickedness; with the devil they form a trinity of wickedness against God and Christ.

L.P.M. Is that the bearing of the expression, 'the uttermost'? That the thing is thoroughly done: "Wrath is come upon them to the uttermost".

J.T. Well, "the uttermost" in that quotation refers to the severity of God's present dealings with the Jews, but then the Jews of counsel, those that are in the mind of God to be saved, will be saved. All Israel will be saved, and we must remember that.

Rem. As regards the judgment on Babylon, it says, "God has judged your judgment upon her", but there is the final judgment, the great white throne; the Lord there carries out the judgment of God.

J.T. John says, "I saw ... him that sat on it"; it is a position deliberately taken up. I think the character of the wickedness that is dealt with is in mind too. The worst wickedness, I suppose, from the time of Adam down, will be in Babylon, because her smoke rises up for ever and ever. But then that same wickedness is seen in the man of sin, and in the false prophet; they are cast alive into the lake of fire.

H.H. Do they come before the great white throne for judgment? It is supposed to be final when a man gets there.

J.T. I do not think there will be any judgment needed to be rendered in the case of the beast and

the false prophet, any more than with Satan, because the evil is manifest. Satan's wickedness is manifest too. Of course there will be, you might say, a judgment, but the actual execution is already there when they are mentioned.

H.H. Might I submit what might possibly be the difference between the judgment of Babylon and the judgment of the great white throne. Is not the fall of Babylon the bringing down of a system of things, but the great white throne is the judgment of individuals.

J.T. That is a just remark. Babylon is a system, wickedness has more scope in a system than in an individual.

A.M. Could we draw a distinction between summary judgment, and what might be called delayed judgment?

J.T. Quite so, it is a question of what God may do. Take for instance the judgment of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. It was instantaneous; the earth swallowed them up. Whereas other judgments are delayed, for instance the mystery of iniquity. That has been working since the apostle wrote his epistle, you might say for eighteen hundred years or more, but yet God is patiently waiting for the full result; and so He waited the iniquity of the Amorites being filled. God waits for that, because He has some peculiar satisfaction, to speak reverently, in the execution of penalty on such wickedness, on the full development of the wickedness we have been speaking of. We are in the midst now of certain things, systematic things, that involve the worst kind of wickedness. God is just delaying the execution of judgment on them until His time comes, because He has a certain satisfaction in dealing with sin, and Satan.

A.E.D. Would not the Pauline light as to the judgment that is to fall upon christendom enter

into how we regard the movements of persons back to the religious systems, such having been with us, and leaving us? Would it not give us a more sober judgment as to that kind of action?

J.T. Yes, you are going back to that which is apostate, and of course that is what the book of Revelation contemplates.

G.A. Did you not make reference some years ago to the fact that before the first shot, so to speak, is fired in the final battle, the beast and the false prophet would be cast alive into the lake of fire? Does not that delineate the matter for us?

J.T. Well, I think it does, because they are judged by themselves, because of the wickedness that is there. The second epistle shows the character of the wickedness, and how Satan is behind it; it is a trinity of wickedness, answering to and opposed to the divine Trinity. It is Satan's work that God abominates, and He will wait His time to execute judgment against it. When the beast and false prophet come out fully as against Christ, because that is how they are seen -- they lead their armies against Christ, they are taken alive and cast into the lake of fire at once, whereas the others are slain. There are grades of wickedness, and I think God abominates systematic wickedness more than anything else, more than any individual wickedness. These two men, the beast and the false prophet stand related to a system, and the system has the mark of what is current around us, that is to say, the unfair disallowance of a man earning his living because of this system. It is utter unfairness.

G.R.D. In the epistle of Jude, verse 15, reference is made to executing judgment and also convicting. Is it important that conviction should go with it? "The Lord has come amidst his holy myriads to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly".

J.T. To execute judgment and to convict, that is a good point. Jude and 2 Peter help greatly in all this as well as this second epistle to the Thessalonians. All these thoughts are developed in those three books, and I believe that the Lord would help us in the matter of judgment, because it is the only alternative to the full blessing of christianity involving the gospel.

Ques. May I ask why in such a chapter as this Paul should mention Satan hindering him?

J.T. Well, that is another thing that comes into this chapter, that there is such a thing as that, as a servant being hindered directly by Satan himself. It is all very well, of course, to say that God allows it, but then Satan does it, and that is a very solemn thing, because he is against God in what he is doing and the servant is to be watchful so that he should not expose himself to the devil's work in that sense. "Satan hindered us", Paul says.

P.L. Was not another servant hindered according to Daniel 10:13? "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one-and-twenty days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia".

J.T. That opens up much as to prophetic announcements, especially in Daniel and as to his lot.

A.J.G. Do you mean that Satan's hindering may take the form of governmental restrictions or anything of that sort, which, in Satan's mind, have in view the hindering of the testimony?

J.T. Well I do. Anything that would tend to interfere with any work that the brethren had in mind, things such as happened through the last war, which hindered the special meetings in New Zealand, for instance. There was a great deal of hindering that undoubtedly the war was intended for, and of course, it was a question for those of us who were

engaged in the Lord's work to be with God about it, so that these hindering things should not happen.

L.P.M. Was the effort to keep Paul from the saints at Thessalonica? Is the effort today to keep the saints from Paul's ministry? Is Satan in that betimes?

J.T. Satan would be in anything like that, but the question is how you can work out that he is against Paul's ministry, as no doubt he is especially, but then we would not have in mind, I am sure, to say that he was not against John's ministry or Peter's ministry, because he is against all. Paul's has a peculiar place, and as the great servant said, 'Let not John's ministry be forgotten in insisting on Paul's', hence we should cleave to Paul, and work it out too, as to its application to us at the present time; that is to say, the assembly being developed fully, the full thought of the assembly, and surely nothing would be more in Satan's mind than to defeat that, but there should be the working out of the assembly according to Paul in the ministry.

A.J.G. So that in Colossians Paul says, "Praying at the same time for us also, that God may open to us a door of the word to speak the mystery of Christ".

J.T. Very good. You can count on God doing that, you mean?

A.J.G. I thought it gave scope to the prayers of the saints, in regard of conditions in the world, that God would open the door for whatever was needed in the way of ministry.

J.T. And I think He is doing it too. Meetings that are being held such as this are indicative that God is doing it for us, because these meetings, and the way the saints are brought together, that is to say, those in whom God has wrought more particularly and who are able to take things in and work them out themselves, and the ministry too, and that they are set free and get help at these meetings, all

I believe, are a peculiar evidence of God helping us against the devil.

G.A. Would the element of invulnerability appear in that direction, in the Lord's movements in the wilderness, in Matthew's gospel, so that it would be demonstrated that this principle would be here? Satan did hinder Paul; but he did not hinder the Lord, and would that be characteristic that he will not in the will of God hinder the assembly? The gates of hades do not prevail, the invulnerability of the Lord in that way is demonstrated.

J.T. Very good, I would say that. The assembly has peculiar means vested in her of overcoming the devil, and I believe that Babylon is just the answer to that in wickedness; that is to say; the woman in the early part of Revelation and then Babylon itself seen later. The awful wickedness there is over against the truth of the assembly, and God is helping the brethren, I am certain, in these meetings that are being held, to work out the truth of the assembly, so that the Lord would have in mind that it might be finished, because there must be a finish to it.

Ques. Do you see in the spirit of Python and the experiences at Philippi in the jail, two efforts of the enemy to prevent the truth coming into Europe and hence to Australia, that there was nothing in the servants that the enemy could lay hold of, and so the work not only goes on but prospers in those very circumstances?

J.T. Very good. The passage in Acts 16 is a very fine statement of the position, that in praying, they were praising God with singing, a great triumph, and then they were able to evangelise the jailer.

A.M. Do you think that Satan will not be so concerned about us if we keep to ourselves, but if we come out into the light, we may expect perhaps more definite attacks on the testimony?

J.T. In trade unions there is a widespread means of attack at any time, but there is resistance to it, and there may be governmental resistance. It is a remarkable thing that the United States has legislated against it quite recently, whereas in Great Britain the opposite is in view. All these things are to be taken notice of, and I believe in this country the thing is all laid ready for the attack, and so there is a great need of the brethren being faithful to the truth, and carrying on, as we are carrying on now. What happened seven or eight years ago before this war was a proposal for a meeting of this kind in New Zealand, but that never took place. Well, that was the enemy undoubtedly, but still the way is open yet for this, and is all to the end that the truth of the assembly might proceed and go through.

Ques. In Acts 16, verse 6, the apostle and Silas "having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia ... attempted to go to Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them". How would the apostle know that it was the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Jesus that was hindering his movements into Asia and Bithynia, and that it was Satan that was hindering his movements into Thessalonica?

J.T. That would be a question of spiritual discernment. A man who was walking in the Spirit, as he was, was almost a personal antagonist of Satan. Paul acted in that way, and if Satan hindered him or the Spirit of God hindered him from going to such and such a place, it would be that he would go to some other place, and that other place was Europe, that is to say Macedonia, leading the way to Europe generally.

P.L. Paul was known in hell as a redoubtable warrior. He was singled out as is evident in Acts 19:15: "Paul I am acquainted with".

THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (3)

1 Thessalonians 3:1 - 13; 1 Thessalonians 4:1 - 18

J.T. The third chapter continues the record of the apostle's tenderness of affection toward the Thessalonians, and then in chapter four we have the great subject in mind of the Lord's coming for us. Evidently the first epistle has in view our preparation and fitness for our translation, although it may be, and is, a question of comforting the saints as to those who have fallen asleep. Yet now, in view of all that is past, we can see that the coming of the Lord for us and our readiness for it are in the apostle's mind, hence the need of those affections being developed that are so evident in this epistle. There can be no doubt, as we observe what is current generally amongst the saints, that love among the saints is increasing with the corresponding disallowance of all that is contrary to it, all that tends to disunion, because it is obvious that the translation of the assembly must involve its completion in every respect; thus, much must be done and, of course, God can do it, because He can work, according to Scripture, rapidly. Much must be done in view of completion.

Ques. In this thought of completion, how do you view the divided state that exists amongst believers today? Is that to be altered?

J.T. I do not think it will be in a general way, but still things can happen toward the end rapidly; in fact as to judgment itself, according to chapter 5 and the next epistle and other scriptures, the work will be rapid. The protraction of certain events is one thing, and the contraction of them is another, contraction involving what is done rapidly, that is to say, in three and a half years or at the most seven

years; we are bound to pay attention to the literality of prophecy in that sense, because it is a question of actual time. Regarding the positive side, the question is what can be done, what God can do quickly, especially in view of 1 Corinthians 15:52, "in the twinkling of an eye". Paul speaks of it as a mystery; he says, "Behold, I tell you a mystery"; that must enter into this short period; whereas in what we are engaged with now, extending over years, one hundred and fifty years maybe, of the revival there has been protraction, a great extension of things, and it is still going on, but still God can do things quickly, and will do them when He decides to act, to finish up, as it says, "Then the end". There is such a thing as that to have in our minds.

Ques. Would there be a distinction between the perfecting of His work with those that are in the testimony as we say, and the final touch that will make the assembly ready to answer to the shout?

J.T. Well, I think the protracted period will continue, therefore the responsibility of each of us to carry on the work, but then what may partake of miracle will come. I believe it is contemplated in this epistle that God will act miraculously. From what we know of Him and the history of the truth and the testimony it is not to be wondered at because the conditions require that there must be some speedy action. The same would be true as to the millennial period when it comes in, dealing with Asia; these chapters deal with Europe, that is to say, with the propagation of christianity and the effect of it, whereas Asia is still held in abeyance. What has been done in India is a small matter as compared with what has to be done, and God will act in a swift way; that is, by an angel flying in mid-heaven.

H.H. In that way the fourth living creature, the flying eagle, would come into line with these thoughts.

J.T. I would think so. Especially the fact that the eagle is one of the creatures, but it would be speedy work certainly.

A.J.G. Even as regards constructive ministry, is it not significant that with the Lord working mightily through Paul at Ephesus, it only took three years to bring about an assembly which was in the full gain of all the counsel of God?

J.T. That is a good remark, illuminating too. It shows how things can be done even in the protracted period; that is to say, the present period.

Ques. Have we a simple illustration of it in Gideon who was told to take his stand as regards idolatry in his father's house? He took that stand at night, and found God had worked with his father overnight; his father was with him and not against him in the morning.

J.T. Quite so, and then he asked for a miracle; that is to say for the action on the fleece, "And Gideon said to God, If thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said, behold, I put a fleece of wool on the threshing-floor; if dew shall be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the ground, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by my hand, as thou hast said. And it was so. And when he rose up early on the morrow, he pressed the fleece together, and wrung dew out of the fleece, a bowl-full of water", Judges 6:36 - 38. A bowl full. Very small, of course, but it was enough for a sign. Now verses 39, 40, "And Gideon said to God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once! Let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it, I pray thee, be dry upon the fleece only, and upon all the ground let there be dew. And God did so that night, and it was dry upon the fleece only, but on all the ground there was dew". So that in what you are saying, I think it is well to take account of this, what we may call a

miracle. That is to say, God answering Gideon's prayers so that he might be assured. It is not, indeed, that any one of us would hope for a miracle, or anything in the sense of a vision so that we might be able to tell when the Lord is coming, but at the same time there is enough to indicate that He is coming very soon. This sign is notable as assuring faith as to what will happen.

A.J.G. Perhaps you would say what is the import of this double sign?

J.T. I would think it alludes to Israel and the nations. For the first part of the sign he put a fleece of wool on the threshing-floor and said, "If dew shall be on the fleece only", I would think that the fleece there and the dew on it only, would be a type of God's dealings with Israel throughout. And then, the second sign would be what is universal. That is to say, "Let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it, I pray thee, be dry upon the fleece only, and upon all the ground let there be dew", "All the ground" would be a universal thought, as compared with the special dealings of God with Israel. We had it yesterday, "All Israel shall be saved", but then it is not going on now. The dew is general, that is, it is universal, but especially on Europe and its outgoings westward, including the British Empire.

Ques. Does it emphasise, too, the sovereignty of God, in that He works where He will at one time and at another place at another time, and that faith lays hold of that?

J.T. Just so. We are tested as to whether we can lay hold of the thoughts of God as indicated in the three sons of Noah. Their names are given and what their names mean, too, are given to us; clearly Japheth is in mind for the assembly, that is, that sphere of the earth out of which the assembly is drawn.

E.E.S.L. Would these two signs include also a reference to the Lord in humanity, on whom alone the dew rested, and to His death, in order that the dew might be on all around?

J.T. Well, I think that would be good; I would go with that; only the thought of the dew being on the fleece might easily be expanded from Christ Himself to Israel.

P.H.H. Would this thought of the rapid touch of God at the end explain perhaps why some believers seem to pass all their lives without the Spirit, but I suppose, it would be hardly right to say that they are taken away without the Spirit?

J.T. I do not think it would be right to say it, because, whatever we may say, God can do things quickly, and it is the day of the Spirit. We read in John 7:39 that "The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". That is to say, the effect of Christ's redemption would be worked out in the presence of the Spirit, and that presence is continuous, and so the results are continuing.

D.N.D. I would like to refer to Philippians 1:9: "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in full knowledge and all intelligence, that ye may judge of and approve the things that are more excellent in order that ye may be pure and without offence for Christ's day, being complete as regards the fruit of righteousness".

J.T. Your thought is that that has application to what we have been saying? Being complete as regards the fruit of righteousness. That is, the apostle has the thought of completeness in his ministry amongst the Philippians, and we all know, perhaps, that this statement was very significant that they had had fellowship with him from the first day and had not faltered at all. So that they can be regarded as indicating the work of Paul, how effective it was, how resultful it was, and how he had

in mind in his prayer for them that they should be complete.

H.J.M. Does the miracle of the dew and the fleece find its answer in the tenth and eleventh chapters of Romans? The apostle exclaims, "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!"

J.T. That is one of the rich doxologies of Romans and very significantly comes in at the close of the eleventh chapter. The ninth, tenth and eleventh chapters are a great parenthesis in the teaching, to link up the first part of the book dealing with the ministry among the nations, with God's ways as to Israel, and the promises to the fathers, because they were beloved on account of the fathers. It is a question of God's love, and hence the enlargement of the prophetic truth as to Israel, and therefore, as we had it yesterday, "All Israel shall be saved". It is very significant that there is such a doxology as that, that such feelings come out of the heart of God as in that doxology, because it is a question of His love. We cannot say that the nations are loved at all, but it does say the world was loved, "God so loved the world", but that is the world as a system of order, which indicates what God has done in creation. So that it has not just the same personal value as the end of the parenthesis that I am alluding to, because it is a question of the fathers' sakes; He loved them for the fathers' sakes. "So that all Israel shall be saved"; and then we see the terribleness of the gentile position, because they will be cut off. There will be no remedy at all for the gentiles for there is nothing promised to them afterwards, whereas there is something promised to Israel.

H.J.M. But for the moment, the world's reconciliation is the dew on the ground. Is that right?

J.T. Just so, that is the idea.

L.P.M. Does the reference to Timothy twice in the third chapter provide some link with the present moment amongst the saints, and the finishing touches that Timothy would secure as representing the apostle?

J.T. And he is remaining too. So that what is said of him as to the teaching, runs on to the third generation.

L.P.M. You are referring to the passage which alludes to "the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also", 2 Timothy 2:2?

J.T. Exactly. So that if you take account of what is said, there are clearly three generations, and the ministry is to go on through Timothy's mediatorship. I think the brethren will have all known that, and I think it is well to bring it in here, as to the teaching of Paul, and how it continued and could be handed on to another; the reference to Timothy in this chapter, of course, enters into that.

E.B. So the second epistle to Timothy has come into great prominence just before the close of the present dispensation, 2 Timothy 2 having become a watchword of saints in the revival.

J.T. It has been, you might say, the great text on which we base our position. 2 Timothy has helped us in recent times as to the ground of gathering, and how the work of God is to continue. Instead of assuming that we are in Pentecostal days in the administration of discipline, we can resort to 2 Timothy. The earlier thought had been based on 1 Corinthians 5, that discipline should take the form of putting away, whereas the more recent adjustment implied that we withdraw from iniquity, and that is what we are doing now, and God is helping us, so that the teaching is continuing.

E.B. Does that bear on the two thoughts of protraction and contraction, that God had made provision in the epistle to Timothy for the extension of the assembly's history for so long, so that now in days of contraction, we still find that God had made adequate provision, even during Paul's day, in his letter to Timothy?

J.T. So that we can withdraw, even if it is only one person, as, for instance, in Estonia, where there was only one brother in the meeting and the others were sisters, and he sinned, and they withdrew from him, so that the ground is clear; and it is clear, however few or many, we can withdraw.

E.G.J. Do the three generations that you mentioned suggest to us God's intervention for us in the present day, Timothy, faithful men, and others also?

J.T. Yes, others also, you are stressing that, and of course, we can take our place among the "others also". We are not pretending much in that, certainly, because there are a good many of us. However able any one of us may be, he takes his place with the others, because there are many others that have been taught and are able themselves to teach too.

E.E.S.L. Timothy himself was of the third generation.

J.T. And a young man, too, so that there is good hope for the young men amongst us, and that is, I believe, what the Lord is stressing, as to what He has under His hand.

P.H.H. Along with taking the ground of being among the "others also" are we to be exercised as faithful men? I am thinking, for instance, of meetings like these where the Lord is giving us some truth; should we be exercised to pass it on by way of instruction -- "such as shall be competent to instruct others also"?

J.T. To instruct. The greatest need I know of is teaching, because the brethren are not very well

taught. I am not criticising anybody, but it is lamentable how poor the teaching is among the brethren here and there.

Ques. Does that agree with the end of Matthew, where the Lord says that His support with His people and His presence will be contingent upon their teaching all the things which He commanded them?

J.T. Just so. The Lord guarantees things for us too in Matthew, and it arises from discipline, from a person who is trespassing against another person and fails to judge himself. It arises from that and the Lord says, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20. He says before that, "If two of you", meaning that He is stressing the assembly. The verse reads, "Again I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be that they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens", so that we can count on the Father's support in that sense in prayer, two of us, and then two or three of us gathered together.

J.S. Is there not great encouragement in view of what you were saying yesterday as to reduction, that an answer is assured to two agreeing.

J.T. Well, it is significant that it is linked up with Matthew, for Matthew, next to 2 Timothy, I think, has been the great standby for the brethren during all these years of the revival. Matthew is the assembly gospel, and as the Lord is not referred to in it as having ascended, it means that He is here with us, so we can confidently carry on, however few, because He is here with us always. It is in view of teaching, so that the teaching has gone on, not only the oral ministry as we have just now at these meetings but the written ministry, and of course, these meetings have taken on this character through note

taking so that they are written too, but it is primarily a question of oral ministry by a person who is able to serve the saints. The written ministry has assumed, however, very large proportions, especially in the Collected Writings of J. N. Darby, which have circulated throughout the whole christian profession, and have been widely read. God has thus rendered a great testimony in the written ministry, and it is so, in our own case, whether it be spoken or written, spoken first and then written afterwards, which perhaps makes it more valuable as permanently recorded. Those who minister thereby know the actual facts of the situation and how the truth came out, and minister accordingly.

A.J.D. Does the word to Timothy, "Enjoin and teach these things", link on with what you are saying?

J.T. Quite so; enjoin and teach.

Ques. You have often spoken of the urgent need for teaching, and of the lack that you have observed. How do you account for that condition? Could you put your finger on anything?

J.T. Well, I would say, to be simple, and not critical, that I believe the sisters are not instructed, and that perhaps the husbands forget that their wives need instruction, and that the sisters leave the teaching side to their husbands, whereas in the beginning women were more instructed, especially as there was prophetic power amongst them. There is not any now that I know of, and I believe the Lord would speak to the husbands, all of us, as to our wives and see to it that they become instructed in the truth, because if they are not instructed the children will not be instructed.

H.W. Do you think the failure might be in a lack of headship?

J.T. That is good, and hence the Lord's supper has acquired such a place amongst us, and effectively

too, and the thought of headship comes in first. It stands between the general thought of the Lord's supper in the sense of fellowship in chapter 10 and the actual thought of the celebration of it in chapter 11. That is, headship comes in between those two things, and the sisters perhaps are allowed to proceed without the thought of headship being insisted on.

G.A. Do you think in the matter of teaching, that we may have neglected to some extent the distinctive features of the first epistle to Timothy, which so repeatedly alludes to the matter of teaching, the Spirit of God using the words 'teaching' and 'teacher' repeatedly, as though it would prepare us for the second epistle?

J.T. Well, there is great stress laid on sisters in the first epistle, and even on the age at which they should be contributed to financially, that is to say, not below sixty years. Well, these are all matters of great importance which the Spirit of God has written down, and we are to look into them and inquire as to whether our sisters, our wives, and our daughters are kept in our minds for instruction.

A.E.D. Sisters are emphasised in the word in the second epistle, "In thy grandmother Lois, and in thy mother Eunice, and I am persuaded that in thee also".

J.T. Yes; there it is.

E.C.T. Even Apollos, a servant, is helped by Aquila and Priscilla, Acts 18:26.

J.T. They are equally mentioned, showing that sisters are capable of advancing, as their husbands are, in some things.

P.H.H. As to what is practical in the way of teaching, would it be diverting you to say a word about the three-day meetings? They are in our minds a good deal, though not so prominently in this part, nor in England as they are in America.

Would they provide a suitable opportunity to pursue teaching?

J.T. Yes, I think for a course of instruction. Week-end fellowship meetings, that is afternoon and evening, hardly afford a course of instruction, I believe what is said to Timothy, "Instruct others also", involves instruction in a course, and what enters into that is the departmental system inaugurated by David, that things are continued in a course, so that they are fully developed, and I believe the matter of three days is important because it affords time for a course of instruction. You can take up a subject and go through it as we are doing now. "Three days" is a spiritual reference.

G.A. There has been a little reservation of thought in our minds as to whether a three-day occasion embracing the Lord's day constitutes a gathering of such a character properly in the mind of the Lord.

J.T. Well, of course, the first day of the week ought to be made prominent in any matter that we are dealing with, that is the Lord's day. At the same time I think the practice in Great Britain in these larger meetings is right; that is, they usually begin on the Tuesday and end on the Thursday. That is to say, they allow time for prayer, and what we have seen often is significant, that the stress on Paul and Silas in Philippi brings out that prayer precedes praise. I mean the idea of preparation, that prayer is provided for on the Monday, whereas if we begin on Monday, as we have done this time, then we miss the prayers and the exercise that follows on the Lord's day preceding the special meetings. I believe we would do well to go by experience in these matters and what has been inaugurated in Great Britain has stood the test well.

Ques. Would the addition of one day to the normal fellowship meeting be an expression of what

you have in mind as to the three-day meetings? In some place, I believe in Australia, the brethren may add one day to their normal fellowship meetings and may think of that as corresponding to what we have spoken of as three-day meetings.

J.T. That is to say the Lord's day is included. I would agree to that too; in fact in America we are bound to include the Lord's day in these occasions, because the travelling is so great and the first day of the week of course, coming in after the beginning, affords another day.

Ques. Does not that fit in rather happily, in view of the fact that the sisters and children are present?

J.T. I would think so. But at the same time I would not like to see the abandonment of meetings such as these we are now having in Sydney to which brothers are invited, because we get quality. We get more ability in those who are present, who are, you might say, selected; they are here by choice, which is right enough; it is scriptural, for the idea is conveyed in Nehemiah 8:13, as we have often noticed. There was the general thought of all the brethren first, and then on the second day the chief fathers, the priests and the Levites gathered to Ezra to get instruction from the Scriptures.

Rem. It would be well for that distinction to be preserved, in view of the exercise as to three-day meetings becoming more general, that perhaps they would not be quite on the level of occasions such as this.

J.T. Even if they are not on the level of it, it is well for us to understand that there is such an occasion as this, and it might be very special, and we can count on God to make it such, because He is ready to answer us.

Rem. You have distinguished, I think, between the one-day fellowship meeting for which a collection

is taken up to pay for the food, and the three-day meetings, at which sisters and children are present, which are on a higher level sufficient to warrant assembly giving.

J.T. Well, they are, I understand, on a higher level because in the main the arrangement of these three-day meetings, even although they may include the week-end, is a question of the truth, and the assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. The brethren who arrange for these three-day meetings have in mind the truth in a general and a full way; that is to say, they take it up in a systematic and a general way and God blesses it, whereas that cannot be done at week-end meetings which become more a matter of fellowship and a way of getting together.

R.R.T. As you know, we have been free in America to invite a brother from a longer distance for three-day meetings, than we would for a fellowship meeting. Is that right?

J.T. Well, I know it is a fact at San Francisco and Los Angeles and Vancouver, but if you have a brother nearby to take the meetings there is no reason why he should not take them, because distance does not add to a brother's ability.

E.C.T. Do the three-day meetings give more the thought of dwelling together for that time and in the same place?

J.T. Well, they do, but the main thing that we are leading to now is a question of the truth, and as is stated in Timothy, the teaching.

E.C.T. The truth being developed in that kind of atmosphere, I had in mind.

J.T. The truth is the point, I think, that we should all keep before us, the question of the truth, and Paul says to Timothy that the "assembly is the pillar and base of the truth". No week-end can give

time enough for a development of any subject such as we are engaged in now. We would want to go through the thing in a systematic and orderly way, and in our houses, of course, we have opportunity to look into it systematically and get the truth in its general bearing. I think all that is of profound importance.

L.P.M. You made a reference some little time ago to the matter of teaching, and I suppose it requires competency on the part of those who serve, to instruct others also; do you feel that the brethren need to pay more attention to the ministry and take it on, so as to disseminate it better?

J.T. Those who are leading or are given the place of leadership should be able to instruct, and I believe they are able, and we should thank God that there are so many of them. At the same time there may be special occasions and I think the Scripture warrants that. What I have referred to in Nehemiah 8:13, is an evidence of it.

P.L. In regard to Nehemiah 8, verse 18 says, "Also day by day, from the first day to the last day, he read in the book of the law of God". Does that fit in with the extended period to which you have referred?

J.T. Especially the thought of the law of God, a very strong expression covering any dispensation, but especially the present one and the one attached to Israel. These are the two main dispensations, though there are others besides, but the law of God would at least cover these two dispensations, because the first dispensation that we have had to do with is Israel, and to them were committed the oracles of God, and what we have in christianity is, the outcome of that; it is a question of the oracles of God. They are now fixed, that is to say each Scripture is divinely inspired and profitable. The

text is fixed and the brethren know it, and therefore the whole matter comes up when we have sufficient time, such as three days, to look into it.

P.L. Let him speak "as oracles of God", 1 Peter 4:11.

J.T. Quite so.

J.P. Does the completeness that you referred to require not only the teaching but the recognition on the part of all who are being instructed, of the necessity for hearing and taking in the truth? That is, that it is not optional?

J.T. What we are now dealing with is a great matter, a dispensational matter, and the idea of dispensation in the main is applicable to Israel and christianity, and Israel had the oracles at the beginning -- "to them were entrusted the oracles of God", Romans 3:2, and God worked accordingly. Then Christ came in and He was Himself the truth. He said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life", John 14:6. The Spirit of God is also said to be the truth, so that we are now in the second great dispensation and it is really the greatest of all, and the ministry has in mind the oracles of God, and so 1 Corinthians provides for the oracles of God; we have already referred to Romans, that the oracles of God were committed to the Jews, but then that has all come into christianity and hence the oracles of God are vested in the temple of God. It is not a temple built by hands, but a spiritual temple, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?". That is the principle of these extended meetings; that is to say, it is not a question of fellowship only, but it is the truth, the truth of God, and the assembly is the pillar and base of it, so that the assembly must be in mind in some sense for any three-day meetings that are arranged for us.

J.P. Does 1 Chronicles 12:38 - 40 bear that out, the men of war came to make David king, but all Israel were of the same mind, confirming it?

J.T. The mighties too, the mighties were men who could do things, and we are told what they could do. It was not a question of a large number of them, but one or two or three.

A.J.G. Are you stressing that in this matter of teaching it is not only a question of gift, but also of temple light as the saints are together in the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. Only, that gift is important in view of the need of authority, because authority goes with gift.

A.J.G. Hence Timothy was enjoined, "Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth". Is that necessary in view of sound teaching?

J.T. Very good. Another thing that ought to be said is that Timothy had a peculiar place, and so did Titus, perhaps others, but they were the apostle's delegates, and so they could do what none of us can do because they represented apostolic authority. There is no such thing as that now, but it existed then, and that makes a great difference between the early days and the present days; so no individual can administer a rebuke, for instance. It requires the assembly to administer a rebuke now, whereas Paul could tell Timothy that those who sinned should be rebuked before all.

D.J.M. Can the care meeting administer a rebuke?

J.T. No, I do not think so. The care meeting is only a tentative thing, it is not the assembly, it has no authority really, except moral authority, but the assembly has actual authority as committed to her by Christ.

J.W.H. In view of failure in this matter of actions in care meetings in times past, how do matters stand as regards the present? Is it necessary for matters to be reviewed in the light of this or are they to be left in view of our ignorance in the past?

J.T. As far as I know, what we call the care meeting was not a part of the system of truth or procedure in the apostles' time, because there was no need for it, because the apostles were there and their delegates were there, and the assembly too was there. As far as I know the phrase 'care meeting' is modern; but God has honoured it, because it is simply expressing the word care, and that care is taken on by certain brothers. It might be taken on by others, but that is all it is, but God has honoured it, because the brethren are working in the light of His mind and seeking to apply His mind as to facts, but the administration or ultimate action on the facts must be taken by the assembly.

J.W.H. I understand that, but I ask as to past actions in which those gathered together in care have exercised discipline and certain persons have been told not to break bread, and that has never been reviewed by us.

J.T. What scripture was the action based on?

J.W.H. It was on the principle of withdrawal, but it was done by the care meeting instead of by the assembly.

J.T. Well there is an error there. That is all you can say about that.

J.E. The difficulty is as to what means might be taken to rectify these matters? Can any action be taken now to put matters right?

J.T. Well, there is such a thing as Leviticus 4; if a priest errs, or the assembly errs, it can be rectified, or judged in the sense of it being recalled and pronounced as wrong, if it is shown to be wrong.

D.J.M. Could you help as to this matter of convening the saints in assembly character for the administration of a rebuke other than according to 1 Corinthians 5. A case may be before us where brethren do not feel we should go as far as withdrawal, but the gravity of the thing should be brought home to the conscience of all.

J.T. Then why should it not be dealt with by the assembly? If it be some error, what was the error that was to be dealt with?

L.P.M. Is there any rebuke that the assembly can administer short of withdrawal in the light of the teaching of 1 Corinthians 5?

J.T. "Whatsoever ye" in Matthew 18 refers to the assembly. The Lord leaves it with us. John 20 has to be taken account of in discipline as well as 1 Corinthians 5 and Matthew 18. John 20 is the gracious side of the truth, and the Lord before He announced what He had in mind, breathed into the disciples so as to qualify them for anything they might do, and then He leaves things to them to do. He does not tell them what to do. He says, "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them", as much as to say heaven endorses what they do; really the Lord had full confidence in what they would do. Well now the question is, whether the case referred to can be dealt with under that head.

A.E.D. Must we not take up each case in its own individual setting and not lay down any rules exactly? Would not the ministry we have had as to priesthood have in mind that there should be ability to discern just where the person is?

J.T. But we are now dealing with procedure, whether a few of the many brethren, the care meeting as it is called, whether there is attached to their action that which the Lord speaks of, "Whose soever sins ye remit". Who are the "ye"?

L.P.M. Would that require the assembly?

J.T. It does. That is as John presents it. That is the assembly, or those who form it. Mary Magdalene was included in that in a certain sense, because she had to do with the message that the Lord sent to the disciples.

Ques. Is there any suggestion in John 20 of a midway course between remission and retention?

J.T. I do not think so. The Lord is giving them a blank cheque. "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them". Then the "ye" is the point. Who are they? And that raises the whole question as to what John means, and where the assembly is to be found in John, and it is in the persons who form it, but the idea is there; the Lord is not committing himself to anything less than that idea.

Rem. I think it would be perfectly clear to all that the "ye" involves the assembly, but I think the question would arise in some minds as to whether rebuke was a kind of midway course between those two, between remission and retention.

J.T. The midway course is not the right course.

J.P. You have said that John 20 has the persons who form the assembly in view; must the assembly be convened for them to act in the way of remitting or retaining?

J.T. I think so. The "ye" would mean that, because we have to read scripture with scripture, and Paul is the great architect of the assembly. He is the great architect, the Lord has constituted him that, and therefore when we come to matters of this kind that John deals with, we cannot ignore what Paul says. If Paul has formally dealt with anything, then we must go by what he says as well as what John says; in fact, let Paul's word have prominence.

J.P. If the course is to be remission, might that be accompanied by a rebuke?

J.T. By whom?

J.P. By the assembly. It might be that one who would voice the judgment of the assembly might feel that it was the assembly's mind that a rebuke should be administered.

J.T. Well, where is the scripture you are dealing with?

J.P. I am just asking the question, in view of what has been said as to the assembly rebuking.

J.T. Who is the person who administers rebuke?

J.P. Someone must speak on behalf of the saints as convened in conveying a judgment. I was contemplating a case where it was felt that the mind of the assembly was that a rebuke should be administered by the person who voices the judgment of the assembly.

J.T. Well, but is the assembly there? The Lord is speaking of the "ye", and the authority He is committing to them.

L.P.M. If we remit, it is an unconditional matter, is it not?

J.T. Yes. There could be no remission in such a case except by the assembly, as far as I see. If he does not hear the assembly, that is the point Matthew makes. Matthew is authoritative clearly, but then John has the same teaching in his mind too, and Paul pre-eminently has the same teaching, and the assembly must be in mind; if you are dealing with anything you must not leave it out.

L.P.M. The assembly having come together, it would remit or it would retain, and there is nothing between those two thoughts?

J.T. Nothing between, nothing at all. It is one or the other.

C.F.I. Does true repentance towards God meet the whole position?

J.T. Well, just so. Why should not the whole position be there? It is a question of the dispensation and God has linked Himself up with that. He is

the Author of it, and He is in it in the Spirit being here, being sent down here, and here all these centuries. So that we are to have reference to Him, what He is doing. Therefore the Lord breathes into them before He told them what to do as to remission and retention.

H.W. Would you say that the Lord Himself in John 21 gives us a beautiful example of how the action might be done, in His dealing with the seven erring brothers? There was no rebuke on His part whatever as to their action.

J.T. Quite. That is a very beautiful passage, but at the same time the thing is there and the Lord probed Peter, and He recognised what Peter said, that what he was saying was to be relied on; the Lord acknowledged that. So I think the whole matter implies what we are saying now. The Lord did not pass the offence by, but He had His own way of dealing with it. On the other hand He was doing that, but now we are dealing with persons delegated by Him to do it; that is to say, the assembly.

Rem. I would like to get clearer the thought in your mind. I gather you are not suggesting that every matter that comes before the care meeting must of necessity go to the assembly. There are matters, I suppose, that come up and are considered as sufficiently clear without further action being taken.

J.T. Quite so. I believe the Lord is in the way things are being done now. What the brethren decide on as before God because of facts, and you are dealing with facts, is in principle brought to the assembly, because the announcements are made in the assembly, on the Lord's day.

J.E. Can forgiveness be administered in any sense short of the assembly? Providing repentance is evident to the brothers as in care, might forgiveness be administered there?

J.T. Well. Matthew 18 provides for forgiveness of the trespass; that is, the person who is trespassed against forgives. That is, of course, manifest.

H.J.M. Where does the scripture, "Rebuke before all" fit in with this passage?

J.T. That was said to an apostolic delegate directing what should be done in any particular meeting. Suppose Timothy was at Ephesus, or Titus in Greece or at Crete, it would be a question of the assembly, of course, but he would direct what to do.

A.J.G. The scripture reads, "Those that sin convict before all, that the rest also may have fear", 1 Timothy 5:20. I was wondering whether the point in the passage was not so much giving direction as to a mode of procedure, but rather the moral effect by the way things are done on the conscience of the person concerned, and on all the rest.

J.T. Well, just so. But still there is the idea of convicting. Maybe it is a solemn word but that idea is in it. What we are saying, I am sure, is right, because anything put on the care meeting or on a brother, that belongs to the assembly, should be condemned.

Ques. In regard to your earlier reference to Leviticus 4, does that come now within the administration as given to us by the apostles?

J.T. Well, there it is. Even the assembly can judge itself for a wrong action as well as a priest.

Ques. My inquiry relates to how far we can bring the assembly in, in that regard, or would it be persons responsible as in the assembly?

J.T. It should be the assembly. The word "assembly" is there. "And if the whole assembly of Israel sin inadvertently, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the congregation, and they do somewhat against any of all the commandments of Jehovah in things which should not be done, and

are guilty", Leviticus 4:13. There it is, what need we say about it? It is a question of the assembly.

Ques. Does that not suggest some overt action, some transgression of what was laid down?

J.T. Well, it might be overt, but it says "inadvertently". The sin is there anyway.

Rem. I was thinking, on reflection, that we may look back over the years and see certain things that indicated a low state or perhaps ignorance of assembly principles without perhaps its amounting to anything quite so definite as an inadvertent sin.

J.T. Well, why do we make these qualifications? I always go by the Scriptures. Whatever it is, certain things have to be done in accordance with that chapter.

Ques. If there is anything to be reviewed it must be something specific, must it not?

J.T. Yes, quite so, but a specific thing is there; it is spoken of in Leviticus 4.

G.A. Would this scripture provide for the review by a local assembly of a past history in which specific things were done which are recognised now to have been against the Lord and the truth? If it has been, in an individual sense, judged, how is the local company to be cleared entirely of the matter?

J.T. Well, has it been taken up and judged in any sense?

G.A. The teaching was judged and the teacher refused, but the party conditions were not really recognised for a long period; that is now dawning upon the brethren. What is the outlet? Is there any?

J.T. Well, if there is any particular assembly you are alluding to, or meeting which has had part in it in an active way, I would say they were responsible to express their judgment of it, but, is the person in the midst of that assembly?

G.A. No. He is outside.

J.T. Therefore, it is not a direct responsibility, except in a personal way, that if you had had part in it you would have to judge the thing in your own soul. Of course, you are saying now that the assembly has had part in it too, which is peculiar, but the question now is whether the whole thing has been dealt with anywhere where the person is.

A.J.G. If every individual who has had part in it has judged himself would not that clear the assembly?

J.T. I would think so, if the thing is fastened on to him, but then what we are speaking of now as to the ways of God raises a very wide and important question, because the Reformation brought to an end the whole Catholic system, judged it in a certain sense, in Germany or in England, we might say, but there was no attempt to deal with the thing judicially, except in separating, and that is what happened later in the great revival in which we have part, the matter of separation. That is the only way in which the brethren could have got clear of it at that time, and so that goes on now; the only way we can get clear of what may arise amongst us is to separate, unless we can pronounce a judgment before God in a collective sense, and that can be done too.

Rem. I think our brother had in his mind that there may be concern as to the fact that leaven may still be working in the company.

J.T. Well, that is a question of each finding out. It is very hard to say much on that because the person is not there, unless you single out persons that have been specially involved in the matter.

W.S.S. Would the reference in 2 Corinthians 7:11 be a help in the matter? The apostle says, "Ye have proved yourselves to be pure in the matter".

J.T. Just so, he uses the word vengeance. At the same time, we have to allow for another thing, that the apostle was tenderly dealing with the Corinthians, but there was a danger of much more pending if he were dealing with the real offenders. He says, "Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. That is, at that time the apostle carefully and graciously waited on the Corinthians until their obedience was fulfilled. And that is the point now, whether it is in Sydney or any other place, what the general state of the meeting may be, but he had in readiness to avenge all disobedience. It has to be avenged in the apostolic sense. We have no apostles but we have the assembly. The Spirit of God is with us, and we can do it in the assembly by refusing certain persons.

F.W. Does the action in 2 Thessalonians 3:6 require the convening of the assembly?

J.T. It is not a question of withdrawal, but of shrinking from him, not regarding him as unfit for fellowship, but regarding him as a brother.

F.W. I refer to it, because the question of rebuking a person may link on with such a position, as has been referred to earlier.

J.T. The question is, who does it?

F.W. But that is what we want to be clear about and get an understanding of.

J.T. Well, what I am saying implies that I question the whole matter of rebuking save in an assembly sense. Whatever comes up as a critical matter, must make allowance for the assembly; the assembly has some part in it, however remote it may be; we must recognise the assembly.

E.L.G. Would you say that in a case of true repentance there is nothing to present to the assembly?

J.T. Well, if the fire has done its work, what is there to present?

F.W. Have you not emphasised the need for priestly discernment as to whether professed repentance is real before God?

J.T. Quite so.

THE TESTIMONY OF GRACE AND JUDGMENT (4)

1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 28

J.T. This phrase "for the rest", which appears at the beginning of chapter 4 is found elsewhere in the apostle's letters. It would indicate that he had finished, so far, what was in his mind; but his mind was always open to the Spirit, and hence we have the fourth and fifth chapters after this phrase in this epistle, and undoubtedly the thought of the Lord's coming entered into it. It not only entered into this chapter, but was in the apostle's mind from the outset. He says, "For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep". That is to say, he brings in that section expressly as the word of the Lord, and hence it has that character. Then at the end of chapter 4, "So encourage one another with these words"; and then in chapter 5 he tells us something else; that is to say, what related to the judgment involved in the coming of the Lord. He says, "For ye know perfectly well yourselves, that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief by night". Evidently they had heard something about the judgment, but the Lord's coming for us would seem to be in his mind, and he waited for the word of the Lord as to it, the full confirmatory thought as to it. There is no doubt that he would encourage us as to the idea of a word from the Lord, but we are dealing now with the Scriptures, with inspiration. The apostle makes a difference in 1 Corinthians 7 between what he might say himself and what he received directly by inspiration, so that he has clearly in mind that we should be impressed by what he says here in chapter 4 as to the Lord's coming for us, and all that enters into it as preparatory to that great event.

E.B.McC. Would you say that verses 12 and 13 of chapter 3 would have that in mind? You have spoken of completion and here we have, "In order to the confirming of your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints".

J.T. It is one of the references to the Lord's coming, a subject which is found prominently in each chapter of this epistle. To confirm that, we have in chapter 1, verse 10, "To await his Son from the heavens, whom he raised from among the dead, Jesus, our deliverer from the coming wrath"; and then in chapter 2, verse 19, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of boasting? are not ye also before our Lord Jesus at his coming?". That is the complete thought as to their being ready; "for ye are our glory and joy"; and then in the end of chapter 3, verses 12 and 13, "But you, may the Lord make to exceed and abound in love toward one another, and toward all, even as we also towards you, in order to the confirming of your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints". The same thought, that is, the Lord's coming, is in chapter 4 and we have it also in chapter 5 that He comes "as a thief by night". But as we were saying chapter 4 is perhaps the most important of Paul's references to the Lord's coming.

H.H. You would say that the rapture makes the appearing possible. I mean, the Lord necessarily comes for the saints before they can come out with Him.

J.T. He must come first, in order that we should come out with Him. That makes this passage in chapter 4 so important.

Ques. Would "an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God" suggest the irresistibility of divine power to accomplish things

quickly, so that at the end of the dispensation we are all together as they were at the beginning of the dispensation in the Acts?

J.T. Well, the Lord is aiming at that in the revival that we are in now. Undoubtedly He has in mind that it should go on to the end, hence the strong word to Philadelphia in Revelation 3:11, "I come quickly". That letter to Philadelphia has evidently in mind to touch the assembly. The words 'thee', and 'thou', and so forth, are to touch the assembly, the remnant as we sometimes say, as if it were the whole assembly, because it is so really in the Lord's mind. The passage referred to is Revelation 3:9 - 11: "Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth". Then, "I come quickly, hold fast what thou hast, that no one take thy crown". Then all that follows that down to verse 13 is to emphasise the great features that will follow our translation. That is, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out"; these are very comforting words for those who have to go out much; "and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name". So that what we have in verses 9 to 11 must precede what we have in 1 Thessalonians 4, the coming of the Lord Himself, as Scripture says, "But we do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them that are fallen asleep, to the end that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no

hope. For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. (For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep; for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord. So encourage one another with these words.)" There is no plainer statement as to the Lord's coming than that, and it should be a great comfort to the assembly throughout the dispensation.

J.E. Would you say that every divine intervention is accompanied by the word of the Lord, which seems to have a specific bearing upon a certain matter at any given time, in contrast to the word of God which seems more general?

J.T. That is something to be noted, I am sure. There is a word in 1 Corinthians 15:51 which might bear on what we are saying. Paul says, "Behold I tell you a mystery"; he is alluding to the raising of the saints at the Lord's coming.

H.H. In that same chapter we have, "the firstfruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming". Would you speak of that as the rapture?

J.T. I would think so. Then the passage in 2 Thessalonians 2:1, may be compared with that, "Now we beg you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor troubled ... as that the day of the Lord is present". So that the two epistles speak of the Lord's coming in a very striking way, but this one particularly so.

P.H.H. Would you say a little more about the expression "in the word of the Lord". Does that refer to the necessity and rightness of the word at that particular time?

J.T. The title Lord would mean that He is here administratively all the time. It is a word that conveys the authority He can apply at any time, but this would be the supreme thought of His action; that is to say, He is coming for His people.

A.J.G. Would it be right to think that all who have died in faith are raised at this moment of which we have read, yet this epistle presents it particularly from an assembly viewpoint; that is, it is the Lord Himself claiming His assembly for Himself.

J.T. Quite so. It says, "an assembling shout", showing that it is an immediate thought.

Ques. Is there a certain designed tenderness in the use of the name Jesus in verse 14? It is not Lord there.

J.T. I am sure that is right, because it is an affectionate term, the way He is regarded in special affection by His own, 'Lord Jesus' is similar, carrying with it the authority which is spoken of, but 'Jesus' is an affectionate term and really personal. There is a certain tenderness in being put to sleep by Jesus. One has often thought that Stephen would illustrate it. He said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", and having said that, he fell asleep.

Rem. At the time of his greatest affliction he saw Jesus in heaven.

J.T. Quite so.

A.E.D. Would you say a word as to that expression, "Asleep through Jesus", as in contrast to "the dead in Christ"?

J.T. "The dead in Christ shall rise first"; that is a question of the order of things in the government of God, but entering into the administration of the

Lord Jesus as to His own. It is a more official expression than "asleep through Jesus".

Ques. Are not similar distinctions made in Romans 8:11? "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you". Does not the thought of the Christ extend towards the saints?

J.T. It does, and as I was saying, the expression there, and here, has reference to what we might call the official side of this great matter of the raising of the dead, that God has everything in order, and it is not simply Jesus, but Christ and the dead.

C.F.I. Who would be covered by the expression "the dead in Christ"?

J.T. I suppose all the sleeping saints; "the firstfruits, Christ; then those that are Christ's at his coming", 1 Corinthians 15:23.

C.F.I. Would it cover those who died in the Old Testament period back to Adam, those who died in faith?

J.T. I think it would include them all. The dead in Christ, I think, would include all who are His: "Those that are Christ's at his coming". There would have to be a segregation of course, as to them, because there are some who do not form the assembly, and I suppose this is what you had in mind. The Lord will segregate, to use that word conveniently; there will be a segregation of them, but then the Lord will know what to do on that point, even as to those who were lost as spoken of in Matthew 18:10, 11; that is, little children; they are all secured. He has given Himself for those who are lost. He came to save that which was lost; that includes, I should think, such as children. That has to be regarded by us, for God in His infinite wisdom and care ensures that all are secured, and the Lord, of

course, will be the administrator of everything. John 3:35 says, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand". So the segregation of all these will be in His hands and they will be taken care of. Those that are mentioned as having died in faith become a peculiar class, and they would begin with Abel, I would think; that is to say those who are spoken of in Hebrews 11.

F.W. Would there be a distinction between "they that are Christ's", and those who have died in Christ? Does not the latter involve possession of the Spirit?

J.T. I am not prepared to say much as to any distinction between "they that are Christ's" and "the dead in Christ". It was in the mind of God, to place everything in the hands of the Son, and Abraham saw His day. There must be some way in which he acquired a knowledge of Christ, because from the outset faith began to act, before it is mentioned. The Spirit of God mentions it in Hebrews so that we might have it in mind that it was known.

P.L. So that He was the Spirit vitally of all that preceded Him actually. I was thinking of Noah (1 Peter 3:18 - 20).

J.T. Quite so, "The Spirit of Christ which was in them", 1 Peter 1:11.

W.S.S. "And these all, having obtained witness through faith, did not receive the promise, God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us". Hebrews 11:39, 40. Does that help?

J.T. It does, because we must allow that Christ was in the mind of God, to become incarnate; "In the roll of the book it is written of me", He said to God. It was in the mind of God, and nothing was done without Him, "by whom also he made the worlds", I think we do well to recognise that the whole matter is in His hand. Then as to the administration

of these things, the segregation of the different families, all will be in His hands too. It is said that every family is named of the Father, and Christ must come into the administrative position to name things and carry out the thought of God as to them.

R.H.G. Is that why it is said in verse 17, "And thus we shall be always with the Lord". That is Jehovah there, is it not, the "the" is in brackets?

J.T. It would have to be a question of understanding; it may be Jehovah sometimes, but only seldom, but "the Lord" is what is official. God has made Jesus Lord and Christ. That is what He is officially, and refers to administrative authority.

G.R.D. Is it not a matter of His power here, the power of the Lord?

J.T. It is, but then it is more than that, because it is a question of the assembly, and that is the thing that is before us now and should be, too, "For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus". That is saying that God does it, and it is to bring out God in His supremacy, yet not setting aside the fact that the administration of everything is in the hand of the Lord. John 3:35, says, "The Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand", so here it says God will bring those with Him. All this would instruct the saints at Thessalonica, that it is a matter of God, that He would bring them with Jesus.

J.E. You have stressed the thought elsewhere that no other family is being formed in this dispensation. Would you include the infants that are taken before reaching the age of responsibility in the formation of the assembly?

J.T. Well, the word God has to be provided for in all this. He is the Ruler of the universe, which goes far beyond anything that we know, and so as I said before, Christ came to save that which was lost,

such as children. He came to seek too as Luke 19:10 points out, but when the word 'save' is used and not the word 'seek' as in Matthew 18:11, I would say that those who are children are included. We have to leave that with God, and we can well afford to, because God is sovereign, and so much has to be done by Him; that is what is meant, I think, here, "For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus". They are not to be overlooked, but it is not necessary to speak of others. They are not going to be overlooked. It is a question of God. His supremacy is in mind.

J.E. But you would guard against the thought of another family, would you?

J.T. Yes, at the present time and in the sense of faith. But what I am speaking of now is not a question of faith, but what "the lost" are, and what the rights of God are in His creation; and that will involve what has been existent in the East, for instance in Asia. There has been little or nothing in Asia, but there must be something in a secret way as to God in the myriads there. We can only leave it with God, because "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25), and in Hebrews 12, we have come to "God, the judge of all". He is in that system of the things to which we have come.

J.S. Would you make it clear why it says that God will bring with Him? Is 'God' an official title?

J.T. The word 'God' is official. It is a question of what He is in the universe, outside of what we know, because we do not know everything. We do not know much about angels; we do not know much about the age of the earth, or about the time mentioned in the first of Genesis; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". God did that.

W.S.S. "The hidden things belong to Jehovah our God; but the revealed ones are ours and our children's for ever", Deuteronomy 29:29.

J.T. Yes, that is so.

A.E.D. Is the expression, twice repeated, "We the living", intended to focus our minds on what is immediately before the apostle, so that we should not be diverted by matters that are too great for us?

J.T. That is so. It is very wise, too, not to be diverted into things too great for us, and there are things too great for us. We are to be concerned only with what is revealed, hence what can we say about the governing of the world? There is much that we know nothing of, but God knows; as Paul says, "Whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows", 2 Corinthians 12:3. It is the supremacy of God in knowledge as in all else.

P.L. "He that sitteth upon the circle of the earth", Isaiah 40:22.

J.T. Yes, just so.

Ques. Would the expression, "trump of God" suggest the assertion of all the rights of God in Christ?

J.T. I suppose so. The word 'trump' there would be an allusion to movement, as of a camp. It is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52 as the last trumpet, a well known military allusion. The trump of God would therefore be a question of some great movement; the movement of those who form the assembly, I would say.

P.H.H. There is nothing said here about the living being changed. That is mentioned in Corinthians, but not here.

J.T. If it is mentioned in Corinthians it fits into this, does it not?

P.H.H. I was wondering if you would say a little about it. It says in 1 Corinthians 15:51, "I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall

all be changed". Is there a reason why the word, 'changed' is not mentioned here?

J.T. I think it is probably more comprehensive there than what we have here. The word 'change' implies what will be necessary, for in Christ "there is no male and female", Galatians 3:28. That must be taken account of, the sovereign action of God to exclude male and female in the resurrection, so "that world and the resurrection" is a great matter in the divine counsels and secrets, and we have to make allowance for the things we do not understand. So 1 Corinthians 15:50 says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom", and we have to understand that, how that will come about. Much must happen, so that it is no longer a question of flesh and blood in the kingdom of God; there is to be a change, and the change would exclude many things, and bring in just what God has in mind to stand forever.

Rem. The scripture goes on to say, "For this corruptible must needs put on incorruptibility, and this mortal put on immortality".

J.T. Yes. Must needs.

L.P.M. Does this confirm what you have already spoken of as to the matter of divine intervention? This is what God does here, and Christ is coming for us. Is that in accord with what you had in mind?

J.T. Yes; it is an intervention. The first word used for God in Scripture is plural.

J.P-sn. Does the matter of hope that you referred to yesterday bear on all this?

J.T. Well, it is found in the second epistle, but it is not found as it is in the first epistle, In the second epistle we have in chapter 2: 16, "But our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us, and given us eternal consolation and good hope by grace, encourage your hearts, and establish you in every good work and word". The

word hope there is linked up with the great general thought of God, that hope belongs to the intervention of God for us. He has given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace. It is a question of what God has done in the gospel, but then that is a question of the general thought of God, as is evident also in the first nine verses of 1 Corinthians. These thoughts have to be worked out, because they were far from being true of the Corinthians in their then state. That is, they were divided amongst themselves and so on, so that we are to learn to read things in the abstract, and where we get them in that sense, they have to be worked out. So here, the idea of hope has to be worked out, because it is a great general thought as brought out in the gospel, but in the first chapter it is there. It reads, "We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you at our prayers, remembering unceasingly your work of faith, and labour of love, and enduring constancy of hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father". That is there subjectively worked out in actual fact.

Ques. Is there a particular emphasis on the hope of the rapture? Paul has said "that ye be not grieved even as also the rest who have no hope", and he goes on to speak of the Lord's coming for us. Would that be a particular feature of the hope?

J.T. Well, I think it would be, as it says in 1 Timothy 1:1, "Christ Jesus our hope".

Ques. You were going to say something about the first mention of the name of God, were you not?

J.T. Yes, it is a plural word, and it bears out what we are saying as to the supremacy of God in all these matters. The word in Genesis 1 is Elohim, the plural of Eloah, 'the Supreme'. It is Deity, God in the absolute, but Elohim is plural. It is a question of power, but power in One who is supreme, and therefore as all these things are mentioned, what

do we know about them? For instance, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was waste and empty". All that is more or less beyond us, only that the word 'empty' is touched on later in the Scriptures. We know little or nothing of the vastness of it and the real condition of what we call the earth during all that long space of time. We have just to say we do not know, but God knows. God knows everything.

P.H.H. Do you mean that this word for God being mentioned from the outset, provides in us a worshipful approach to all these matters, including the bringing of the saints with Christ?

J.T. Well, I thought that. God is God, you know, and "God is love". We must remember that all these things that we have mentioned as under His hand are attributable to the fact that He is love, even the lake of fire is attributable to that. God must have things that way; how could it be otherwise? how could wickedness be let loose? A lake suggests restriction, the idea of judgment is restricted.

H.J.M. As to the coming of the Lord being a divine intervention, is it instructive to see that in 1 Corinthians 15 and in the passage we are reading, it is a military intervention and the trumpet is mentioned? Is that to establish our souls in the divine supremacy and the divine triumphs in the face of all the hosts of the enemy?

J.T. Yes, and if there is movement, nothing can interfere with us. When the trumpet is blown it is a question of movement; the last trump is a final one and we shall all be caught up to be with Christ. It is a question of movement and God is over it; it is the trump of God.

J.N.G. In the expression used of the saints being caught up together, is there any reference to the way in which the Lord Jesus went up?

J.T. The word "caught up" is to be noted here; "together" too is a word that belongs to christianity peculiarly.

E.E.S.L. The man child was caught up (Revelation 12:5).

J.T. Quite so, "Caught up to God and to his throne". That is to say, He is under God's hand, and we might say, Where is He? Well, He is with God, He is out of the way, and the devil cannot get near Him any more than he could get near Him when He was here, watched over by Joseph and Mary. He was protected, but now He is caught up to be where God is, so that He is under God's protection.

G.A. Why does the apostle use the word, "The Lord himself"? The word 'Himself' seems an almost characteristic word of the epistle appearing in the verse we are now dealing with, "The Lord himself", and then earlier we noted it, and also later in the second epistle. Would you help us as to that very touching feature?