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Pages 1 - 248 -- "Notes of Readings in New York and other Ministry", 1947 (Volume 172).

READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (1)

Matthew 1:1 - 25; Matthew 2:1 - 12

J.T. The brethren will be aware that it has been decided, under God, as we trust, to look into the gospel of Matthew in this series of readings. What underlies this proposal is largely, that the heavenly position of the assembly has been much stressed, and rightly, for it is heavenly, it is the thought now to balance this by considering the assembly as here on earth. The vessel that was seen by Peter in Acts 10, came down from heaven as a great sheet bound by the four corners. It was let down to earth, but was received up again into heaven and remained there. The sheet being bound by the four corners would mean that it was secure; what was in the sheet was also secure, and the creatures were cleansed, as the second voice declared. Whilst the assembly is heavenly yet its members are historically earthly. All have been born upon earth, and further, they have been born of God on earth, and Matthew has in mind that these things have an important bearing on us.

Pentecost contemplates a large number of persons being converted. We have no such numbers later, and although, it is said, that the number of the men had become five thousand, the Scripture tells us, that the result of one day's work was three thousand converts. Acts 2:41. It is believed that Matthew has all this in mind. The stability and reliability of what is of God in christianity is in mind and also the distinction attached to it, even as to the personnel and their ancestry; whence they came and how they were here for God, running on through the generations under the

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head of fourteen. There are three fourteens of generations. The greatness of the personnel and their ancestry is in mind, so that God is not ashamed of His people from Matthew's point of view. He is not ashamed to be called their God.

It is thought that the Lord will help us to look into things from this standpoint, but especially to see the character of the persons that are in mind and mentioned with such evident accuracy under the formal heads of three fourteens. So that we may well repeat Solomon's word: "Thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people", 1 Kings 3:8. They are not great in the human or outward sense, but they are according to God; not only because they are going to be in heaven, but because of their present stability and reliability. These generations were stable. Men who are mentioned in the list were of the highest character whom God honoured and used. The genealogy therefore runs down through them to the Christ. So that the Lord's own genealogy is honourable in that sense, especially in Joseph the husband of Mary being so distinguished. We have here, "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham".

A.N.W. Would the Lord's own words at the end of the gospel confirm what you say? He says, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth", chapter 28: 18. And then in verse 20, "And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age".

J.T. That would be in view of all this, I would say. He is with us in view of all that is actually stated in Matthew. He is here in the assembly. He is not spoken of as having gone up to heaven, according to Matthew's account. He is here where the saints are. He is the great Person that is in mind, and to reach Him is the end in view -- the Christ, as He is called, chapter 1: 17: "From the carrying away of Babylon unto the Christ". He is

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no less a Person than the Christ and these are His generations.

J.S. Would verse 1 be a sort of key to the book?

J.T. "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". If the word key may be used it would be just that. He is not presented as Son of God -- the point is not that. He is the Son of David and the Son of Abraham; but He is the Christ. That is the point according to this gospel.

W.F.K. Why is Adam left out of this gospel?

J.T. He is not great enough. He is discredited almost at the outset. In Genesis, however, we have, "This is the book of Adam's generations", but clearly God must directly choose Christ's generation. There were persons of great distinction prior to Abraham but God is not thinking of them here. In Matthew, certain ones are rejected from the line of the kings because their parents were not suitable; although they were in the line of David they are left out as unsuitable. God did not see that it would honour the line to leave them in. I think, if we see that God is making a careful selection of these generations, and that He has His own mind in making up the list, then we shall see that the persons are great and suitable from His point of view.

A.B.P. What is the purpose of four women being mentioned in the list?

J.T. They are great by reason of the work of God in them even though there may be discrediting things about them, as there are about all of us. The discrediting things that have happened in our lives do not set aside the greatness that we have from God's point of view. I believe that John supports Matthew in that sense, showing that we are children of God, the right having been given to us to take that place as believing on His name, "who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God". It is a question of family distinction or glory which is granted

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to the saints of this dispensation. Thus it is said, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1.

A.B.P. Would Judah's admission that Tamar was more righteous that he show that she was qualified to have her name in this line?

J.T. Quite so. It shows that she is a fit person to be in this noble lineage. Ruth also, and Rahab, had distinguished themselves as subjects of the work of God. Solomon's mother was distinguished in that she had been the wife of Urias.

T.E.H. These two great fathers in the genealogy had distinguished sons -- Isaac and Solomon. Do they help to enhance the greatness of Abraham and David? Solomon said, "For I was a son unto my father, tender and an only one in the sight of my mother", Proverbs 4:3. And Isaac was the outcome of a great man like Abraham.

J.T. Very good! Solomon was a son unto his father and Isaac went up to mount Moriah doing the will of his father. These two sons bring out, typically, the unique character of our Lord's sonship.

A.R. Royalty seems to take the lead in this gospel -- Son of David -- and then it says, later, "David the king", and then, "Joseph, son of David".

J.T. That is to bring out the distinction in the line -- "David the king". It is a question of the king -- royalty.

A.R. Do you think that royalty should mark us in administrative matters in the assembly?

J.T. We shall see, as we proceed in Matthew, that Jerusalem is the city of the great King and how much is said of the kingdom. Royalty, and rule as flowing out of it, are God's thought, not Bolshevism, or Communism, which are satanic.

F.H.L. You spoke of John supporting this line in Matthew. Revelation 22:16 says, "I am the root and offspring of David".

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J.T. The root is the greater of the two for the root refers to Deity, and hence it establishes just what we are saying, for the root is Christ. The personnel are in mind, who they are, and their origin, and the chief amongst them is the Christ, and He is God. Emmanuel, one of the names given to Christ here, is, "God with us".

C.A.M. Would you say a word as to the expression used in the prophet Isaiah and quoted in Acts 8:33; "who shall declare his generation?"

J.T. That is the passage that the eunuch was reading; Isaiah 53. It is not to be ignored that he was reading such a chapter as that, and that he was a great man, a great personage with the queen. And the magi were great persons, too, as seen in Matthew 2.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that there is an answer to that question in that with which we are occupied?

J.T. "Who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living", Isaiah 53:8. The quotation in Acts 8 is from the Septuagint. There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit as here would adjust our minds as to all difficult passages, and clarify everything for us; at the same time we are to bear in mind that there is no attempt to clarify the inscrutable. "No one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son", Matthew 11:27. There is the inscrutable which we cannot compass. At the same time the Holy Spirit, as I said, is here to clarify everything that a creature should know, and Christ's generation mentioned in Isaiah 53 is not what is before us in Matthew 1. That is connected with Christ's life which was taken from the earth. Christ's life as here in the flesh was unique. No one but Himself had part in it; what He has now is a risen glorified life. What He had in flesh and blood was laid down in death and it seems to me it may be regarded as without generation:

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what He took on in resurrection was life in a wholly new condition.

C.N. Will you tell us why these generations finish with the Christ?

J.T. Well, it is a question of the Christ. The Samaritan woman said, "Is not He the Christ?" as if she were a person who would find out. She asked a question, but the Lord had told her who He was: "I who speak to thee am he". So that there are those who find things out by inquiry in the temple of God as it says, "... and to inquire of him in his temple", Psalm 27:4. We find things out by inquiry in the temple of God.

A.B.P. Does the name Jesus involve mystery?

J.T. Well, that is a proper question to bring up, because the word in verse 21 is, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus". We have already been speaking about the brethren and what we are called, that is, "children of God"! But here it says, "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus". Joseph is to give the name. And then it goes on to say, "... for he shall save his people from their sins". Thus the idea of saviour is involved in the name Jesus. Then the last verse says, that Joseph "knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus". And then there is another word which is to be noted, in verse 23: "Behold the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, bring interpreted, 'God with us'". So that what is said under the heading of name is remarkable, both as to Emmanuel and as to Jesus. There is a footnote, referring to the name Joshua, in Exodus 17:9, which reads, 'Jah the Saviour, called Jesus in Greek: see Hebrews 4:8'. So that I think we may say that there is mystery in the name.

E.A.R. You were alluding elsewhere to the fact that there were three persons who visited Abraham in the

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manifestation in Genesis 18, and one of them was none other than Jesus. Would the name in that way convey the great mystery of the incarnation?

J.T. Just so; John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 show that He is the active One in the Godhead. As to what was said of Matthew at the beginning of the meeting, it is not simply that we are to be with Him in heaven, but He is with us here; in Matthew it is "God with us". God is here tonight with us.

C.A.M. Philip preaching Jesus would satisfy the inquiry of the eunuch.

A.N.W. So that the Christ is the anointed Man. Thus would Jesus involve the Godhead?

J.T. Well, just so. Some of us were speaking as to Philippians recently, and about the designation Christ Jesus: "For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus", chapter 2: 5. That is the anointed Man. But Jesus is the greater really, for it is Jah the Saviour. It implies Deity.

A.P.T. In Hebrews 13 it says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come", verse 8. Does that fit in with what you have been saying in regard to the inscrutability of His Person?

J.T. I think that is right: He is "the Same". Psalm 102:24 - 27.

F.H.L. In Isaiah 9:6, it says, "his name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace". Would that enter into the illuminating of the name?

J.T. Just so; it is the name, and hence the striking allusion in the baptismal formula in the end of this gospel -- the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It is the question of the name of the three Persons. It is one name.

J.T.Jr. Is the Christ the same as the Messiah or does it go further?

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J.T. The two names are equivalent it the original. Messiah, of course, is the Hebrew, and Christ is the Greek.

J.T.Jr. I was thinking of what was made known to Daniel. It was the Messiah, alluding to the coming in of the Messiah to change everything for the Jews, Daniel 9:25, 26. It is not an allusion to a personal name, but rather to His office.

J.T. It is the Messiah, the Prince, and means the Anointed, and the Head and Ruler.

S.M. The woman of John 4 says, "I know that Messias is coming, who is called Christ".

J.T. She had that understanding.

J.T.Jr. The prophet Isaiah speaks of Immanuel. Is that more personal?

J.T. Immanuel is "God with us". The word El is God, and is a name of power that is much used in the Old Testament.

J.T.Jr. With further reference to the name Joshua in Exodus 17that name comes in in regard to conflict. What would you say as to that?

J.T. I suppose it would be symbolical in that chapter. It is the great conflict called the battle of Rephidim. It is said, "For the hand is on the throne of Jah; Jehovah will have war with Amalek from generation to generation!" The word generation is not to be overlooked because we are dealing with generations here and the war is going on. It would be Amalek in the spiritual meaning, as alluding to the devil acting through the flesh. It is what the flesh is as representing Satan and the combat goes on. Hence it says in Ephesians, "Our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against principalities, against authorities, against the universal lords of this darkness, against spiritual power of wickedness in the heavenlies", chapter 6: 12. I think the passage in Exodus serves us well, not only as to the Lord's name, but as to His

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military prowess, because Revelation 19 brings out how He is to wage war.

C.N. So that in Philippians 2 it says, "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and granted him a name, that which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God the Father's glory". That involves His prowess in a military sense.

J.T. Quite so.

T.N.W. Is the greatness of the position established by the record of the Lord's ancestry going back to David and Abraham?

J.T. God has made a selection of these persons. Matthew gives us their names. They are all distinguished. The beginnings of the gospels afford much light as to the Lord's Person. John begins with the greatest thought; that is, that He is God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". Then Luke says, "Wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", chapter 1: 35. And Mark says, "Beginning of the glad tidings of Jesus Christ, Son of God". So that the gospels afford light as to the Lord's Person. But Matthew is peculiar in that he makes so much of the ancestry of the Lord, who is said to be the Christ in the verses of which we have been speaking. Why should there be so much made of the persons, and why such a selection? Why should some be eliminated that might ordinarily have a place in the genealogy? I raise the question to confirm what we have already said. We are to ask questions. The Spirit of God makes much of questions, and these Bible readings open up the truth through questions and answers, but it is through the Holy Spirit having part in it all, and fitting us to have part in it, too, and the answers to our questions will come through Him. So, why the number of

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persons, forty-two persons? There were those that might have been numbered, but they are eliminated, because of the moral conditions that existed, especially because of their affinity with Jezebel. They refer to the supreme effort of the devil, in this dispensation, in a certain system that is running on to the end. Jezebel is the type of it. It is because of Jezebel having part with certain kings that they are left out of the genealogy. They are not fit to be in it, showing that God is making much of the personnel of the generations of Jesus Christ. We are to examine each one, whence he came and what marked him.

E.A.K. Is it the thought to call attention to what is divinely selected, set over against a darkening background, in the references to the three divisions of fourteen generations each? Nationally, the position is declining, but the divine selection is maintained, would you say, bringing in the Christ, despite the decline?

J.T. Yes; the decline did not eliminate or in any way set aside the lowliness that existed when our Lord was born. Luke brings this out especially, and stresses the holiness of the persons who had to do with Him. The present is a time of lowliness and a day of small things, but the Christ makes up for all that. He is going to fill the universe; so that He can make up for any smallness that may attach to us because of outward circumstances. I think the address to Philadelphia is to be noted in that same sense; "thou hast a little power". But the little is made up for by the Lord Jesus Himself in the place He has in the letter to Philadelphia. Love has a great place in that letter, too. Love makes up for the smallness.

J.A.P. The apostle says that David fell asleep and saw corruption after he had ministered in his own generation to the will of God, but in speaking of the Lord Jesus he says, "he raised him from among the

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dead, no more to return to corruption", Acts 13:34. Is that what we are to come to?

J.T. Yes; the Person who has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light.

W.W.M. Would you say that the affection of the apostle for Israel is seen in Romans 9 as he speaks of his brethren? He goes on to say, "... whose are the fathers; and of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever", verse 5. It would affect him as he considered these generations all down the line.

J.T. Quite so.

A.A.T. You suggested that John's presentation of the Lord as God is greater than what we are considering?

J.T. Yes. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. You cannot have anything greater than God. But that is John's line. Matthew is dealing with what is down here, and what is capable, and distinguished enough for God to attach Himself to and attach His testimony to. And so we do not get the record of the Lord being translated in Matthew, because it is a question of what is down here. He is down here; and hence it is "God with us" in Matthew. Ephesians 2:6 would say that we are to be up there, even as the Lord said, "that where I am ye also may be", John 14:3. But in Matthew the Lord is seen as down here where He is needed, where the power is needed: "There am I in the midst of them", chapter 18: 20, and also, "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", chapter 28: 20.

J.T.Jr. In Matthew 1 the Spirit of God proceeds with the generations until He comes to Joseph and Mary. It says, "Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ", verse 16. It is very carefully worded.

J.T. Yes; it refers to this great Personage. We

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should note, that it is "of whom was born Jesus". Luke tells us that the angel said, "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God". The stress is laid on Mary here as well as Joseph, but much more is made of Joseph, because it is a question of the male side and that he is the son of David.

C.N. Is it in your mind that the qualities that are seen in these generations should be seen now in the assembly?

J.T. Quite so; because we have the Person who can do things now in the Christ. We have reached the Christ. When we reach the full thought of christianity we must attribute the Spirit's presence to Him for He has sent down the Spirit. That is really how the truth stands, that He has sent down the Spirit, so that everything is now under Him, the coming in of the Spirit and all that the Spirit does stands in relation to the Christ.

F.N.W. In verse 17 it says, "... unto the Christ". Would that be an assurance to us at the present time, that the chain of generations will carry on to the coming of the Lord; what is of God here will stand?

J.T. What we have been saying as to the generations is historical. If you have in mind what is effected through the gospel, then there would be something in that, but the force of what is before us now is the historical thing. The names and the number of these great forefathers are recorded and they extend to the Christ.

W.F.K. Does Abraham come first because he is the father of us all according to faith?

J.T. Well, he comes first in the sense of genealogy, but David comes first in the sense of distinction: "Son of David, Son of Abraham". Seemingly, the idea is that royalty is the leading feature because it is a question of persons. We might say that David could not be greater than Abraham, but then that is not the way it is put

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here. Christ is not said to be the root of Abraham; He is the root of David. The stress is laid on the king.

W.F.K. The apostle says, in Romans 4, that Abraham is the father of us all.

J.T. That is true, but now we are dealing with distinctions. God is dealing with distinctions, and He is eliminating certain persons because they do not have distinction. Faith is not the subject here.

F.H.L. What you said about Adam is remarkable, because he was great enough to have a book of his own generations.

J.T. That is the truth in chapter 5 of Genesis. There are about ten references to generations in Genesis and even Ishmael is mentioned, showing that God has family lines in His hand, but when it comes down to the generation of Jesus Christ, then we have real quality, and God is not ashamed of those persons.

J.T.Jr. One subdivision of the generations is from Abraham to David. Would you say that, in a certain sense, the summit in the ways of God was reached in David?

J.T. Yes; the summit in the way of distinction. The word summit has a right place in Matthew because there are seven mountains in this gospel, seven distinctions in the sense of mountains, and what we are talking of enters into the matter. The line is from Abraham to David, and from David to the carrying away of Babylon, and from the carrying away of Babylon to the Christ. These are the distinctions, but in result, the Christ must be first. Things are to be resolved in that way under the teaching of the Spirit in this wonderful gospel.

G.V.D. Why is one of the divisions of the generations at the carrying away of Babylon, when things were at such a low ebb at that time?

J.T. Well, the quality was there nevertheless. In spite of the reproach and the carrying away of Babylon,

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royalty was there. The royal line was there and it reached its full thought in the Christ.

E.T.P. Would that link with Nehemiah, in that he established the position according to genealogy with those who returned from Babylon to Judea and Jerusalem?

J.T. Quite so; certain were not allowed to get their distinction until a priest should arise with Urim and Thummim, showing that priesthood enters into this matter. Certain ones were eliminated until the priest with Urim and Thummim should arise.

A.R. The royal line has really never been lost. Joseph is called the son of David. It extends right on to the end.

J.T. Quite so; so that in Romans. Paul's leading epistle, it is the Christ: "come of David's seed according to flesh, marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead", chapter 1: 3, 4. That is where the Lord's Person comes in.

E.A.K. This would correspond with the seed royal that the enemy sought, through Athaliah, to destroy. And is the same thought carried on in Herod's attack in Matthew 2? The enemy was acting in the same way against the royal seed.

J.T. Quite so; that is very good. Jezebel was a similar type of person; she destroyed the prophets, who represented the word of God; but Athaliah was aiming at the seed royal, and Matthew brings out the seed royal.

V.C.L. Does the careful selection involved in these names prepare us for the selection of those that were fitted to be companions of the Christ as His apostles?

J.T. Quite so. Some of us were noticing, in the second book of Psalms, that there are female companions and male companions, and it is said of the Lord that He is anointed with the oil of gladness above

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His companions. All that points to what we are speaking about. The names are carefully selected; and He carefully selected His apostles. It is said by Luke, when the Supper was to be instituted, that the twelve apostles were with Him. I suppose the number twelve is to fit in with what we are speaking of in the sense of administrative power; but ancestry is the point here and it is a question of who the persons are. The distinctions which they have all come down to the Christ.

A.B.P. You spoke earlier of Joseph being honoured. Did you have some particular qualities in Joseph in mind?

J.T. Well, I think it is good to bring that up now. It says, "Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ". That is Joseph, but Mary is also distinguished in that Joseph is her husband. She has that distinction, and he is the son of David. Then it says, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was thus: ..." and we are told that Mary was betrothed to Joseph and that he was a righteous man: "her husband, being a righteous man ..." That is one of the best things that you can attribute to a man, and so it is that Matthew makes more of righteousness than any of the other gospel writers. Hence Joseph is distinguished in this way. The idea of righteousness is carried down when the Lord is baptised, evidently to bring out that righteousness peculiarly marked Him, stressing the place it has in this gospel. When the Lord was baptised He said to John the baptist, "For thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness", chapter 3: 15. All righteousness is an immense thought, and Joseph has the distinction of being a righteous man in the extraordinary circumstances mentioned. Thus the enemy had no advantage at a critical time in the testimony. This points, therefore, to the place that righteousness has in the economy of the assembly.

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J.T.Jr. Joseph, doing what the angel enjoined him, at the end of chapter 1, is in keeping with his righteousness. It says, "But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him", and then it says, "And he called his name Jesus". He is a subject, righteous man.

F.S.C. It says as to Mary that "she was found to be with child of the Holy Ghost". And then Joseph is spoken of as a righteous man.

J.T. That is one of the things to be noted. What can be questioned about that? We are now considering the Messiah, and Mary has a peculiar place in relation to the Messiah. It is a question of the quality of the persons in the historical line through whom the Messiah came in, and this chapter is the one that treats of it. It is what may be called legal accuracy, not legal in the ordinary sense, but as proving unquestionably that Christ is the Messiah. It has to be established legally that He is the Messiah and this chapter is for that very purpose.

And then it says, in verse 24, "But Joseph, having awoke up from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had enjoined him, and took to him his wife, and knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus". Joseph did it; it shows that he knew what to do, which is to be noted. At a most critical time he knew what should be done and it all bore on this great point as to the Lord's Messiah-ship. It is legally established before the whole universe that He is the Christ.

C.A.M. Would you say that what had preceded was necessary? so that it was the right time for the Lord Jesus to be born.

J.T. Quite so. Everything was as accurate as it could possibly be. If the magi were astronomers they would understand this, because they were dealing with the heavens. We all know something of the accuracy

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of the movements of the heavenly bodies. Even if we only read it in books we know something, but the knowledge thus acquired is not equal to the accuracy that is found in this chapter as to the Messiah-ship of Jesus, the Christ, and as to the time that He should be born.

C.A.M. Is Joseph, the reputed father of Jesus, the result of this royal line?

J.T. Quite so; there is not a hair's breadth of inaccuracy about it, whatever men may say. There is not one king mentioned that should not be. The record is infinitely accurate. I use the word infinite, because it applies to an infinite Person, the Lord Jesus; it must be accurate, and it is accurate.

C.A.M. It says, "Esrom begat Aram". These men are alluded to in 1 Chronicles 2:9, 10, but there is nothing outstanding recorded in Scripture as to them and some others in this line.

J.T. We have already been alluding to the descent from David down. There was a certain reduction in quality and distinction in the persons that were mentioned at the time of the carrying away of Babylon, but the line was really there, and it was really there as it was in David. The Messiah-ship of Christ is established indisputably, as remarked.

C.A.M. In spite of the wickedness that Babylon represents in church history we have all the fragrance of Christ now with us spiritually. It is not lost.

J.T. It is not lost, and one is more than ever impressed by this meeting tonight of the greatness of Matthew's gospel and all that enters into it. Accuracy was required and it was there.

A.N.W. If we could inquire into the accuracy would we not find that those names that have been mentioned, such as Thamar, Rachab, and Ruth, are there in the same honourable way as the others? There was that which had discredited them, but that side is not in mind here.

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J.T. God had to do with all this, and He made His selection of these men and women. They are there, and they are to be there. Accuracy required that they should be there.

A.P.T. In verse 22 the reference is not only to what was spoken by the prophet, but what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet. That makes it extremely accurate.

J.T. What we are saying must be so because the Old Testament scriptures said it would come to pass, and so it says, "Now all this came to pass that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord, through the prophet". Everything is accurate.

J.T.Jr. The angel says, "Son of David", verse 20. That is the proof of the line of David; it is established by what the angel says.

A.N.W. Whether we go for proof of Matthew 1 to Chronicles, or to Micah for proof of Matthew 2, the thing is precise. He is born precisely where the prophet said the Christ should be born.

A.B.P. Would the angel saying, "Son of David" to Joseph indicate that the genealogical register in heaven is in perfect synchrony with that on earth?

J.T. Quite so; things must agree, because the teaching of the book runs on to: "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth", chapter 28: 18. There must be perfect agreement between heaven and earth in all this matter.

J.S. And His star coming in in chapter 2 is to confirm all this, is it not?

J.T. That is good; I think the magi help us out a little in the matter of personnel. Chapter 2 was suggested for our consideration to see the kind of men that were used. It is said, "Behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?" Well, how did they know? They say, "We have seen his star in the east, and have

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come to do him homage". There is no question about it. What has happened in the East has the same accuracy as what has happened in the West. It is what happened in relation to Christ.

W.F.K. Do you think His star was different from other stars?

J.T. Certainly; it is His star. It is distinctive. The magi were undoubtedly divinely helped in their understanding of the star. They say definitely, that it is the star of the King of the Jews that has been born. Can any astronomer today tell us of it as having seen it?

W.F.K. I thought they might know it as being different from other stars.

J.T. Well, just so; they knew it was the very star. It must be the greatest star of all. How did they know that it was His? That they knew clearly shows that these men were godly and had guidance from God.

F.H.L. Does this link on with Balaam's prophecy as to the Star that would come out of Jacob? "There cometh a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel", Numbers 24:17.

J.T. There is no indication that the magi knew that scripture and that they discerned this star from what Balaam said. I would think that it was divinely given to them to know whose star this was, because they have not question about it. The light the magi had would be in keeping with Job who also does not formally refer to Scripture.

E.A.K. Is there a suggestion of the assembly emerging early in this gospel? Heavenly light is given to the gentiles, whereas Jerusalem is thoroughly out of accord with the mind of heaven concerning this glorious Person?

J.T. I think it would help us, when we get to the end of this gospel, as to the place the gentiles have in the final message, chapter 28: 19. I think the magi here are intended to link on with the gentiles, according to

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what you might call the appendix to Matthew. There is an appendix to John and there is an appendix to Matthew; and the appendix to Matthew treats of the gentiles. The allusion would be to Christ in relation to the gentiles in the millennium. The completion of the service is not recorded in the New Testament. It is not recorded that the message sent, according to chapter 28, was ever fulfilled. Instead of the message to the eleven being fulfilled by them, it is Paul that brings the message to the gentiles. So that this commission to go to the gentiles, at the end of Matthew, is still to be fulfilled, and I believe the magi afford a link as to them. According to what we have been saying, they are distinguished already. Cornelius also was distinguished before Peter met him.

A.N.W. The text shows that the magi were in touch with God; they were divinely instructed, and they got a divine answer.

C.A.M. Do the magi connect with the wise men of Daniel?

J.T. It says, in Daniel 11:33, "They that are wise among the people shall instruct the many". The footnote refers to the wise as the Maschilim. It is a question of the wise understanding, and I believe that the wise men have that character. It is a question of what God can link Himself with, and that God is not ashamed of them. He need not be ashamed of the magi here. They are not great astronomers or navigators, as far as we know. It is a question of their relations with God, and they know the star of the King of the Jews, for they are instructed as to this. It says, "And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way". They are a link, you might say, with Rahab. She sent the spies out by another way. Another way suggests a principle which comes into our position. It is not the, world's way, or man's way, but the divine way.

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A.B.P. You are suggesting that the last few verses of Matthew's gospel relate more to the completion of the age than to the present dispensation?

J.T. Yes; I think the appendix in Matthew 28 is more or less mysterious as John's appendix is mysterious, but we can see that it runs into the millennium. There will be a message then such as is indicated in the end of Matthew 28, and I believe it will link on with the gentiles, and God will not be ashamed of them. His work will go on in them as it will go on among the Jews.

A.B.P. It is very interesting that this passage should be so extensively used to support the idea of missionary travelling in the present dispensation.

J.T. If it is only by history we can tell that there is not much result from missionary work, for Asia is still unchristianised.

T.E.H. It says in the last chapter of Daniel that many shall be purified, and be made white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

J.T. Yes; they are called Maschilim, as already mentioned, and they link on with the magi and with the book of Job. What Job had is in measure in keeping with what the magi had. The line runs down among the gentiles, because God is the God of the gentiles, also, it says.

C.N. Will you say a word on the effect on the wise men, as recorded here, when they saw the star and "the little child with Mary, his mother".

J.T. "And they having heard the king went their way; and lo, the star which they had seen in the east went before them until it came and stood over the place where the little child was. And when they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him

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homage. And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way", verses 10 - 12. They departed to the country of the Gentiles but they were worshippers of God, they were worshippers of Christ.

F.N.W. Is there a suggestion of how the heavenly city will afford light to the Gentiles, and what will develop according to Revelation 21?

J.T. Quite so. "Her shining was like a most precious stone". And then, later, it says, "And the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory to it".

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (2)

Matthew 3:1 - 17

J.T. It is thought that we should look further into what is said, in chapter two, of the magi as representing the gentiles. It is of note that the element which represents the gentiles should appear so early in the book. They are said to be "from the east" and had "come to do him homage". They say, "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east, and have come to do him homage", verse 2. That there should be such an evidence of the work of God at this particular time is very noticeable. It should affect us in a worshipful sense -- particularly we who are ourselves of the gentiles. They had come evidently with light and guidance from God, and with the means of service. It says in verse 11: "And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh. And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way", verses 11, 12. They were governed by a principle in determining the other way; that is to say, they had guidance which was different from what is merely natural or what mere nature would suggest. It seems as if these thoughts should help us as proceeding to chapter 3; that we might have the principle of "another way" before us. It is a way that is different from what mere natural wisdom would dictate.

R.W.S. Is "another way" the key to the book, in that sense? It comes in early in the book, and Jerusalem is discredited at once as moving on merely religious lines. It says, "But Herod the king having heard of it, was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him", chapter 2: 3.

J.T. I think that your suggestion as to the key is

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good. We thus have the key of knowledge according to God and it is there so early in the book, to be found, as you might say, where it is needed. We are told in this book that the representatives of natural or human religion -- that is, the scribes and the Pharisees -- compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is become such, they make him twofold more a son of hell than themselves, which is a very striking thing as to what humanly accredited religion is and how utterly futile it is for guidance in the things of God.

W.W.M. Would the magi coming to light represent the secret work of God in people not naturally religious?

J.T. Just so; and the magi came in unexpectedly, showing that God was operating in them.

A.N.W. To return another way is divine instruction. There is a note on the word 'instructed' indicating that it was an answer after consultation. A star guided them to Bethlehem but they held a consultation as to how to return; so it says, "And being divinely instructed in a dream".

J.T. They were instructed not to return to Herod; that is to say, the negative side was against Herod, or that element. But "another way" is, as you might say, left to ourselves, because it is a question of the work of God. The work of God in itself can be trusted.

A.A.T. They were guided first by a star and then later instructed in a dream.

J.T. The word is, "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born? for we have seen his star in the east", verses l, 2. Now you are contrasting what they had seen with the instruction they received according to verse 12. That is, a star is contrasted with the instruction. The instruction is definite in a negative sense, whereas

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verse 2 speaks of what they saw. We can hardly say much as to guidance in verse 2. They are inquiring for the king that had been born, but the star did not appear in Jerusalem. They did not get the guidance from Jerusalem where they inquired for it. It is said in verse 10: "And when they saw the star they rejoiced", but the star was outside of Jerusalem. It is said, "And they having heard the king went their way; and lo, the star, which they had seen in the east, went before them until it came and stood over the place where the little child was", verse 9. That is to say, the star reappeared there, evidently outside of Jerusalem. And then in verse 12, we have the instruction in a dream. It was negative instruction, that they were not to return to Herod, but then they were guided by the other way. They were instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, but they departed unto their own country another way. The guidance is in the star, and then in the other way, which is the work of God, a matter that we have to consider. Guidance is sometimes objective, but clearly here it would be subjective, because it is a question of what arose in their own minds, which was the work of God. The other way would have arisen in their own minds, and it proved to be right.

Ques. Would the two milch kine in 1 Samuel 6 illustrate what is meant by the other way? They took the right way in connection with the return of the ark from the land of the Philistines, going contrary to nature in leaving their calves shut up at home.

J.T. That is very good; nature in the kine was governed in the same sense as we have it here with the magi. It is the understanding of what the work of God suggests. The kine arrived at the right spot, even though not possessed of the intelligence of men, and yet able to determine what to do in taking the right way.

A.N.W. It was of God, I suppose, that the chief priests and the scribes should quote from the prophet

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Micah. The Scriptures were known by them in Jerusalem. Is that part of the divine design?

J.T. I would say that the importance of that would be that the scribes and the chief priests were the responsible persons in Jerusalem, and had among themselves the means of determining things in the Scriptures. They used what they had, and used it aright, but the magi worked on another principle in arriving at "another way".

R.W.S. The star is connected with the East and with the place where the little Child was; He is not connected with Jerusalem. And should we deduce from that, spiritually, that Jerusalem has no part in these divine operations? The magi did not return to it.

J.T. Just so; so that it says, "And they having heard the king went their way" (not his), "and lo, the star, which they had seen in the east, went before them until it came and stood over the place where the little child was", verse 9. Now our hearts are directed to the little Child. We have the Person and He is with His mother. That is what we are told; "And when they saw the star they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother". She is there where she should be, but the little Child is the prime thought. It is for us now to see how it bears on us; how the Lord Jesus comes into our inquiry; and how the natural element, and even what is recognised as of God, has its place, but not properly linked up with the work of God. The work of God is a thing in a subjective sense that we have to trust. We can trust the Scriptures, of course, and the divine guidance that we get providentially we can trust, but mere nature we cannot trust. Its suggestions we cannot trust. Even the use of Scripture itself, by unspiritual persons, cannot be trusted. It may mislead us because it is in wrong hands. The Scriptures have to be in their own setting.

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C.N. So they offered these gifts to Him, not to His mother.

J.T. That is a good point. Luke would follow that up, quoting the Lord as saying that His mother is not to be made much of unduly. A certain woman said, "Blessed is the womb that has borne thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked". But the Lord said, "Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it", Luke 11:27, 28. The Lord points to the hearers of the word of God instead of to His mother. The time comes when it is the word of God we have to trust.

J.T.Jr. We may have to do with divine things but not be spiritual. Mary had to do with the Child, but she later proved to be unspiritual.

J.T. Yes; the Lord had to say to her, "What have I to do with thee, woman?" John 2:4.

A.P.T. The "little child" is mentioned eight times in this chapter. Would there be some spiritual touch to that?

J.T. I think "the little child" is a beautiful thought. It is not the Babe as in Luke. Luke would stress the very beginning, that He was a Babe. "Wherefore the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", Luke 1:35. But the little Child in Matthew has a very peculiar touch. It suggests formation. I mean to say, the Lord was literally born and grew; He grew up into Boyhood and Manhood that was of God. Growth and formation are in mind in this chapter.

F.H.L. Referring to the gifts made by the magi, would there not be further instruction in the way they were offered, the gold being first?

J.T. I would say that.

F.H.L. It was remarkable for gentiles to have this appreciation.

J.T. You might say that they were in accord with

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the very earliest scriptures. In Genesis 2:12 it says, "The gold of that land is good". That is to say, the encircling of the river of God brings that out. They are in accord with that. They have something that can be offered, and which was acceptable, too. It is to be observed that it is offered to Him; the little Child, and not to the mother.

A.R. Why does it appear in Matthew that the little Child required more care than in Luke? It seems that He is more exposed.

J.T. You will notice the father is in evidence in the instruction. It is said in verse 13, "Now, they having departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appears in a dream to Joseph, saying, Arise, take to thee the little child and his mother, and flee into Egypt". That is to say, Joseph now is in evidence and, you might say, of leading importance, instead of the mother, although the mother is also mentioned. But the father is of leading importance and this is in keeping with Matthew because he presents the line of David. Joseph is not simply the husband of Mary; he is the son of David, although it is important that he was the husband of Mary. But he is the son of David and throughout this chapter he is of importance. So that it says, "Take to thee the little child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be there until I shall tell thee; for Herod will seek the little child to destroy it". So that the little Child now is entirely in evidence as the leading and prime thought for us.

C.A.M. You have stressed in ministry on Luke's gospel how all is guarded there in a priestly setting from all that would be unholy. Would you say that in Matthew, which has a royal setting, that protection is from violence? Herod slew all the boys under two years.

J.T. I think Matthew brings into prominence the royal line, but it is not simply the royal line, for there

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is power and protection in it as well. Joseph can be trusted as a protective element. So that the little Child is entrusted to him, but the mother also is there, because she is needed for the little Child at that particular juncture.

C.A.M. Is it not remarkable that one so great and wonderful should be in a position which, outwardly, is almost precarious?

J.T. It seems almost precarious, but still not precarious. For what God is doing, however precarious it may seem, is always trustworthy.

C.A.M. I am sure that is so. Outwardly it would look precarious, but in truth it was not.

F.N.W. In view of these frequent references to the little Child, why is it the Son, when God speaks, both in chapter 2: 15 and in the end of chapter 3?

J.T. Because the time has come for sonship to come into view. We are in mind as those who need instruction as to this great truth, and the time had come, even though the Lord was still very young, for the Spirit of God to bring in the idea of the Son of God and it runs through this whole gospel. So the word is, "And he was there until the death of Herod, that that might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord, through the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son". That word was needed to bring the full light to bear on the position. It is a question of the Son of God, as well as the little Child needing protection; the Son of God is there.

A.R. In order to understand sonship, we have to leave what Judaism represents.

S.W. Is it not significant that the incoming of this great Potentate, the Son of God, should be brought to light through the Gentiles?

J.T. It is remarkable, and it seems to me that the comments made for us should help us in pursuing the subject before us -- the gospel of Matthew -- because it

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is the Son of God and the Son of God in power. It is not the Son of God in heaven, but it is here where He is needed in power; hence, all the truth as to the Son of God bears on the assembly, because the assembly is in mind, as being next to Christ Himself, for protection.

S.F. Would the stone cut out without hands in Daniel 2 be typical of the power of the kingdom and in that way be a similar thought?

J.T. That is what we have to rely on now -- the stone cut out without hands. It will break to pieces all that is of political importance. Of course, as long as the purpose of God needs these political systems they will remain, but when they are no longer required the stone cut out without hands will break them to pieces. That is the way the matter stands. It is very suggestive as to what we can rely upon now.

Ques. Would Joseph be in full accord with the mind of heaven about the little Child?

J.T. Well, to be in full accord would be saying much. We have to go by the facts mentioned and not attribute to Joseph beyond what is really there. Matthew makes more of him than Luke does.

R.W.S. Would you enlarge on your remark about the protection the assembly is afforded today?

J.T. I think we rely on the Son of God. I think that is the position. We are outwardly feeble, but the Lord says, "And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", Matthew 28:20. That is the power and means of protection for the assembly. It is under the Lord's hand for protection. That is the way I would look at it.

R.W.S. Would the protection be of the assembly in localities as well as the general idea?

J.T. It would; the assembly as it is constituted now. It is not the assembly in heaven: it is the assembly here on earth, and the Son of God, too, is viewed as active here on earth. Matthew has these great facts before him,

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and we are to have them before us; that we can count on the Son of God for protection.

J.A.P. Is that what comes out in chapter 14? The Lord stilled the waves. The disciples were in the ship, and they said, "Truly thou art God's Son", verse 34.

J.T. Just so. That is before the full thought of sonship comes out in Matthew. Chapter 16 brings out the full thought of the sonship of Christ; but the idea of protection is there. "Truly thou art God's Son". It is not by revelation, but by observation; by things that were observable; that could be seen; in which the Son of God was active. The revelation is in chapter 16 which is the full thought, as remarked.

F.H.L. The revelation of chapter 16 is followed by the words in chapter 17: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight: hear him", verse 5. There are three representative men there, Peter, James and John.

J.T. That is good; and later in that chapter the Lord brings out sonship, referring to the kings of the earth, to illustrate what He has in mind.

W.F.K. How does the Spirit come into this? The Lord Jesus said that the Spirit will guide us into all the truth.

J.T. That is another idea, of course, but it enters into this gospel. We get the Spirit in relation to the Lord Himself in the end of chapter 3: "And Jesus, having been baptised, went up straightway from the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him: and behold, a voice out of the heavens saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found me delight". The Spirit identifies the Son, coming upon Him as He is baptised of John.

W.F.K. Is the Spirit not a protective element? "There is he who restrains now until he be gone", 2 Thessalonians 2:7.

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J.T. The Spirit is here as restraining what is evil, so in that sense His service is protective.

A.P.T. In the Lord's address to Thyatira He says, "These things says the Son of God", Revelation 2:18. Would that fit in with the protective element in connection with that church?

J.T. Quite so; I believe that is what comes out in connection with that assembly. Rome had already acquired its power, but the address to Thyatira brings in the Son of God. "These things says the Son of God". It is the Son of God that meets that situation and protects us in it.

A.P.T. It is encouraging to see how the truth is maintained in spite of the pharisaical religious element all around.

J.T. Hence God has graciously brought to light for us in recent times the full truth of the Son of God, and we can nestle in that and enjoy the sonship of Christ in our services; but at the same time He is in power. The Son of God is in power. He is the Christ. The idea of the Son of God is that He is placed over the house. In Hebrews 3:6 He is said to be Son over God's house.

A.P-f. Would the fire prepare us for companionship with the Son of God as seen in Daniel 3:25?

J.T. The fourth person seen was like "a son of God" and he walked with the other three.

A.P-f. Is it not remarkable that the gentile monarch should have discerned this fourth Person?

J.T. It is remarkable indeed, as entering into Daniel. What a suggestion there is for protection for us in sufferings! Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego are in mind! They are the three. Daniel is out of sight. He is not in that picture. It is these three sufferers cast into the burning fiery furnace. And then the king sees one like unto a son of God. That is the thing to lay hold of. That is the power in which we can trust.

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J.T.Jr. I suppose the myrrh these magi brought would have in mind that there would be suffering, for Christ suffered and He told His disciples that He would suffer. Then the apostles suffered and there has been suffering in the assembly down to the present time.

A.N.W. Matthew 2:23 says, "So that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, He shall be called a Nazaraean". 'Prophets' is in the plural: Does that imply the general trend of the prophetic word, that He should be in that despised position? It is through the prophets. Micah is referred to in verse 6, but when it is a question of, "He shall be called a Nazaraean", it is through the prophets. You cannot exactly find that.

J.T. Just so.

S.F. Does the position in Nazareth compare with the position Paul presents as to the apostles in 1 Corinthians 4:13 -- the things that caused them reproach?

J.T. Just so. I am thankful for the reference to the Nazaraean. The prophet who speaks about Him is not so important as the fact that the general trend of the prophetic word calls attention to it. Of course, Luke would enlarge on that, because he enlarges on Nazareth.

W.W.M. It says in Revelation 19:10, "The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus". That is what was here in that lowly Person.

J.T. Yes; the spirit of it, quite so.

R.W.S. The prophets uniformly speak of His glory and the glory of the kingdom, but a spiritual mind selects a section which alludes to the reproach.

J.T. Quite so. Now we shall have to pass on to chapter 3. It ends with what we have already remarked; that is, the Spirit of God descending as a dove and coming upon Jesus. The Lord is spoken of earlier in chapter 3, but John is especially stressed, and the Lord is seen coming to be baptised by him. What is brought out is that He is fulfilling all righteousness. That is

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what we are to be impressed with in chapter 3. John is calling attention to Christ and what was needed to prepare the way for Him. It is for us to share in the light that John was given. That is to say, we are to fulfil all righteousness. And then the Spirit comes upon the Lord after that testimony. Jesus said in verse 15, "Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". That is a large matter, but it is not too large for the assembly. It was not too large for Christ. John was to learn this great lesson. And therefore it says, "Then he suffers him". That is to say, John is subject; and subjection is a great point in the matter of the work of God. Then we are told, "And Jesus, having been baptised, went up straightway from the water, and lo, the heavens were opened to him". They were not opened to John, but to Jesus. "And he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him; and behold, a voice out of the heavens saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight", verse 17.

J.T.Jr. While John was an able minister, which these verses would show, yet he had to be adjusted in regard to the fulfilment of all righteousness.

A.R. How extensive would 'all righteousness' be?

J.T. We have just spoken about that. The idea of all righteousness is not too great for the assembly. The assembly characteristically understands it. It was in the Lord's mind in its entirety, so that it becomes a great subject as entering into this chapter. It is not only certain parts of it but all righteousness. The whole matter of righteousness enters into our position.

J.S. Was it the word John required for adjustment?

J.T. Just so. He was not ready for it at first.

A.B.P. Would there be some suggestion in the Lord being seen in this gospel as called out of Egypt, at the Jordan, and tempted in the wilderness? Israel had faced these circumstances and had marked out a certain

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way, but "another way" is marked out now by Christ and would the assembly come into that?

J.T. I would think so. The idea of righteousness begins with Genesis 15 where the first mention of the word of God is found in the Scriptures. It is said of Abraham that he believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. The thought of righteousness enters specially into Abraham's position; and now the Lord brings it in in its fulness. John does not bring it in. He rather detracts from it at first, but the Lord brought it in in its entirety, as we have said.

F.S.C. In what sense is the word "suffer" used here?

J.T. To bear with a thing. The Lord would say, in principle, 'Bear with Me'. He would graciously put it that way to John -- 'Bear with Me, because I am urging righteousness'. It says, "Then comes Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptised of him; but John urgently forbad him". So the Lord has to exercise His authority. John says, "I have need to be baptised of thee", but then the Lord was doing something and John was questioning it, and so the Lord says, in verse 15, "Suffer it now; for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffers him". That is to say, he bears with the Lord. John baptised the Lord because the Lord wished it. What was to come out was the idea of all righteousness.

R.H.S. Is the Lord identifying Himself in His baptism here with those of Israel who had repented and confessed their sins, or is there a further thought in it?

J.T. I think the Lord identifies Himself graciously with the repentant remnant of Israel, but, as we have said, there is the idea of all righteousness.

T.E.H. How extensive is the scripture, "The righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit", Romans 8:4?

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J.T. Well, it goes to the full thought, I would say. Of course, the righteous requirement of the law would not be so great as 'all righteousness', but at the same time you can hardly limit the righteous requirement of the law in its application to the believer according to Romans.

T.E.H. When I receive the Spirit of God I should immediately operate on the basis of fulfilling all righteousness?

J.T. That is the idea, I would say. The great place the Spirit of God has in Romans 8 emphasises that.

A.B.P. Would you think that the idea of "another way" is brought out in 1 Corinthians 13; that love is the basis of working out everything?

J.T. Yes. The great place the Spirit has in Romans 8 is in keeping with the doctrine of Romans in which practical righteousness is worked out. The whole doctrine of Romans is a matter to be held in mind, too. The Spirit is mentioned as many as seventeen times in Romans 8, showing that practical righteousness is worked out in that way.

J.A.P. Do you think that the disciples at Ephesus, in Acts 19, were on this line of fulfilling all righteousness when they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus?

J.T. Quite so; they submitted to the idea involved in the facts that Paul set before them.

C.N. "Thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". Does that imply some specific demonstration on the part of the Lord? 'Thus' would mean something concrete?

J.T. Yes. The plural shows that the Lord is linking John with Himself. The Lord is not saying, 'It becometh Me'; He brings John into it; so that we must bring all the saints into this great matter of righteousness.

A.P.T. Is there significance in the fact that the voice says, "This is my beloved Son"? In Mark it is, "Thou art my beloved Son".

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J.T. I think the idea is to bring out the Person of the Lord Jesus, His loveliness in the eyes of the Father. It is the voice that speaks. In Mark the Father speaks to the Lord Himself; here the attention of others is called to Him. "This is my beloved Son", is a question of testimony.

J.T.Jr. Mark would have the servant more in mind in singling out the Person.

J.T. Quite so. It is the Father speaking to Him there. It is very comforting that there is such a thing as that; the servant gets a word direct to himself. You see it illustrated in Paul's own history, as in Acts 23:11.

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"LET US CELEBRATE THE FEAST"

1 Corinthians 5:3 - 8

This chapter brings before us the discipline which the assembly is called upon to exercise in regard to persons who have been identified with a wicked course. An extreme case of sin is before us in this chapter. At the same time the principles which apply in dealing with matters of evil, and light governing the assembly in such matters come out also. While we do not act in the formal way of delivering to Satan, or removing from ourselves the wicked person, yet we act in the light of that in withdrawing from evil. We are to "withdraw from iniquity". The assembly enters into that. "Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19. Whilst that is an individual thought, yet we move into it together. We have here, as also in 2 Timothy, the name of the Lord. As having to separate from wicked persons the assembly acts, and associated with that act is the power which the Lord's name brings in. It is not merely that persons do it; it is the assembly that does it. So that it is the entirety of the saints who "call upon the Lord", moving together as in the city, and arriving at the necessity of separating from a certain person. As divine principles govern us, one mind as to the matter is reached through the light afforded and through the affections of the saints for Christ and for one another being in action.

Then the apostle immediately refers to two feasts; that is, the passover and the feast of unleavened bread. These are both rituals from the old economy brought forward to show how they apply to ourselves. The Old Testament is made serviceable to us in these matters. So that when we exercise discipline, which, alas, we have to do at times, these two feasts should come immediately into our minds. It is as if the saints need to be reminded of what has been effected by Christ,

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and that, perhaps, it has lost its force with some of our number and therefore evil has occurred. The consideration of these feasts would take us back to Exodus. As we know, the passover especially refers to the initial deliverance of the Israelites; how they were saved from the destroying angel, who, when he saw the blood of the lamb on the doorposts and on the lintels of their houses, passed over them. Here, you will notice, Satan is used for the destruction of the flesh. Evil having come in, Satan is used for the destruction of the flesh in the person who has sinned, that his spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. So that the passover would come into the apostle's mind and he would enforce the meaning of this feast -- also that of unleavened bread. This side of things was, perhaps, lacking at Corinth, and it should come up in our minds also, as we are exercised, to bring about a better state with us. As necessary discipline is exercised, it should bring about better conditions in our localities. The passover is not linked with the Supper in this chapter, as has been pointed out to us recently. It is linked up with the Supper in the gospels, but not here; meaning, I think, that right moral conditions are to be established before the truth of the Supper is brought forward in chapter 11. The intervening chapters have that in mind -- that a better condition of things might be brought about at Corinth. And the Lord is aiming at that amongst us; that is, to bring about better conditions. So that, in going back to the institution of the passover, we would read Exodus 12 and 13. It is good that we should know these chapters; how the Israelites were protected and what was effected, typically -- especially considering the suffering side that is connected with the passover, for the passover lamb was roast with fire. "For also our passover, Christ, has been sacrificed". The allusion is to suffering; the suffering was not mitigated; the action of the fire was direct and powerful,

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and it refers to the way Christ suffered. All this is brought up in this chapter because of the allowance of sin in us, in whatever form it may take, and is intended to take us back to these things so that we may get right in what is initial -- the beginning of our histories in relation to Christ. The great beginning for us is the cross, from the standpoint of sacrifice, and it is important to understand that "Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God", 1 Peter 3:8. And again, as we have in Hebrews: "Wherefore also Jesus, that he might sanctify the people by his own blood, suffered without the gate: therefore let us go forth to him without the camp", chapter 13: 12, 13. These references to the sufferings of Christ should lead us to right thoughts as to ourselves. And then, coupled with that is the feast of unleavened bread, which refers to our state being in keeping with the death of Christ. All this is intended to affect us so that we might move on in intelligent conformity to these things and be ready for the light of the Supper, for we hardly know what we are doing unless we pass this way.

The allusion to the leaven here is most instructive for us, for it is possible that the matter for which a person must be dealt with may spread. The leaven would allude to the way evil has its effect in persons who may be immediately connected with the person involved, or who is under his influence, or is sympathetic with such, and therefore the need of being rigid as to this; each one of us dealing with the leaven that might be in his heart -- and often is there. So the apostle uses this strong word: "Purge out the old leaven". Purge it out! It is the old leaven! "... that ye may be a new lump". That is the idea of a new position, involving better conditions. It is not that we do not sorrow over those who are dealt with, because the point in mind here, in regard to such a person, is that he might be saved: "... that the spirit may be saved in the day of the

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Lord Jesus". We never lose sight of that in regard to persons with whom we must deal in discipline. There have been many cases of sorrow in this city. We should think of all such in that way; but at the same time, the Lord is looking at our state, as of the assembly, and we must purge out the old leaven. And so the word is, "So that let us celebrate the feast". The children of Israel were to keep it seven days, which refers to the whole of the believer's time down here. It is, "not with old leaven, nor with leaven of malice and wickedness". The apostle, in alluding to these things, had in mind that the state of the Corinthians might change for the better, and so he goes on to say, "... but with unleavened bread of sincerity and truth". May every one of us move in sincerity, which involves that we are not double-minded, but that we are free and clear from all personal feeling: and then, that the truth may govern us in our feasts!

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (3)

Matthew 4:1 - 25

J.T. In order to facilitate our consideration of this chapter it may be remarked that there are certain things that are outstanding in it. First, there are the temptations; then the changing of the position of residence by the Lord, then His gathering of material for His service, in the calling of disciples; and finally, there is the extraordinary result of His labours. It is as if these features are grouped in the chapter so that our understanding of it may be enhanced.

The results of the labours of the Lord are seen, beginning with verse 23: "And Jesus went round the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness among the people. And his fame went out into the whole of Syria, and they brought to him all that were ill, suffering under various diseases and pains, and those possessed by demons, and lunatics, and paralytics; and he healed them. And great crowds followed him from Galilee, and Decapolis, and Jerusalem, and Judea, and beyond the Jordan". Stress is laid on the fact that everything is done that needed to be done. And we are reminded of the extent of toil, not necessarily levitical, but toil of every needed kind. We are reminded of results, also; evidently to stimulate us, that we should not be overcome with so much to be done. The chapter indicates what can be done. It is said, "Abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord", 1 Corinthians 15:58.

J.T.Jr. Healing, as well as teaching and preaching, is mentioned in the last paragraph.

J.T. Yes, everything that needed to be done was done, and well done. I thought it would be helpful to have that outline, for an outline in the service of God

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is important. It is said that we are to have an outline of sound words. When we have the outline we can deal with detail.

J.H.E. As soon as the Lord Jesus is identified as the Son of God the devil seeks to nullify what He does. He says, "If thou be the Son of God". He would dispute that. As we embrace Christ the deceiver seeks to take away what we have received. He raises a doubt here as he did in the garden.

J.T. Yes; and the stress is on man: "Man shall not live by bread alone". This gospel brings out the truth that in Christ and the saints manhood and sonship are correlative. The tempter says, "If thou be Son of God ..." The Lord's reply is, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth", verse 4.

C.N. Is it necessary that the temptations should precede the service of the Lord?

J.T. The temptations are the main matter before us now. They are three-fold. Elsewhere it is said, "having completed every temptation", Mark 4:13, as if the enemy tried everything of this character against the Lord. Then we have the three-fold testimony to what happened. And we have the word tempter which is a thing to be noted. Satan is called the tempter in this chapter, so as to stress the idea of temptation. He is not a novice or a mere worker in the effort. He is the arch-tempter. He is really the tempter. He is called that.

A.N.W. Does the opening word in this chapter intimate that the tempter might have had cognisance of the pronouncement in the last verse of the previous chapter: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight"? The opening word, "Then" seems to follow on that. The tempter says, "If thou be Son of God".

J.T. I would think that is right; but then, is the Spirit of God following that? Is He really taking that

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up as the point to be enlarged on? I think what we are remarking is true; that the Lord turns the matter to the question of man, and man in sonship. That is to say, He is not placing the matter within the range of the devil. He is taking the lead, really, in the position. That is, the Lord in His conflict selects His own battleground and His own subjects. He is not simply led by the devil.

A.R. It says that Jesus was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit.

J.T. He was not carried up by the tempter, but by the Spirit, although the tempter is allowed to do certain things. The point is, the Spirit is doing it. The Lord is selecting His own battleground and the subjects that are involved. He is not simply taking up a suggestion. Ministry that is given merely on the basis of what is suggestive is a very weak kind of teaching.

A.R. Is He going into the wilderness as Man?

J.T. That is how the matter stands. The Lord turns the matter and takes it into His own hands. He is in charge of the conflict. We have in the days of David a battle fought in the wood of Ephraim. There were more destroyed by the wood, or forest, than there were by the sword. That was not a good selection of a battleground. The Lord selects His own battleground.

J.S. Man is the great battleground.

J.T. That is the point here. And the devil would seek to turn the matter on sonship, but the Lord turns it on man.

E.A.L. Do we see a distinction in Matthew where the Lord says, "Get thee away. Satan, for it is written ..." verse 10, whereas in Luke it says that "the devil ... departed from him for a time"? In Matthew the Lord takes the initiative in dismissing him.

J.T. Yes. You would expect that. The saints are often dragged along and lowered into positions at the enemy's will. That will not do. The Lord would

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have the setting out of the truth in His own hand.

Ques. Would you explain what you have in mind in suggestive teaching?

J.T. I am afraid of it. I am afraid of the way the brethren sometimes take hold of things, and follow the subject up suggestively. The Lord does not here follow what Satan says. The Lord takes the thing in hand, and speaks of what man should eat. Teaching should be on higher ground than what the devil might suggest. John's gospel is a leading part of Scripture in regard of teaching. And hence you have Mary Magdalene as naming the Lord, Rabboni, meaning, My Teacher. It is not simply that He was the Teacher, a general or public Man who teaches, but One that I value, that I see, and from whom I can get the truth; the truth that may be needed.

R.W.S. Sometimes in meetings for prophetic ministry there is a suggestion that is carried forward. Is your point that there should be something different?

J.T. That is, in general, just what I think. Of course, there is such a thing as following up a remark, and so we have in the Scriptures the use of the word "and" as linking books, as in the beginnings of Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus, but it does not go very far; but there is enough to indicate that there is a connection throughout Scripture. Scripture follows up certain lines, but the Lord's supper opens up fresh and new thoughts about the Lord each week.

A.P.T. "As they were eating" the Lord brought in something entirely new and different in instituting the supper, Matthew 26:26.

J.T. The point there is that it was as they were eating. It was an advantageous time for them. Their constitution would be strengthened by that food, and so it is that in Mark, where we have the unbelief of the disciples in the most remarkable way in the last chapter, the Lord appears to them finally, as if the whole matter

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would be worked out with them. He would thus effect His thoughts with them. He rebuked them for their unbelief, as if at that time they were able to take a rebuke. Thus He proceeds with them, giving them their commission, Mark 16:14 - 18.

A.N.W. You mean that the revelation to one sitting by, 1 Corinthians 14:30, would come direct from the Lord, the Head, rather than from the previous speaker?

J.T. Quite so; it is a revelation. A revelation is not what a brother, speaking just before you, said. That is not the idea of a revelation.

Ques. Immediately preceding the temptations, the Lord fasted for forty days and forty nights. Would you say something about that?

J.T. It says, "Afterwards he hungered". That is to say, the Lord allowed that. You might say, Is the devil having an advantage? We were just saying that the Lord would not give him an advantage, but then it is said, "And having fasted forty days and forty nights, afterwards he hungered". Then the tempter comes when He hungered. This is where you get the word tempter, as if it is the full thought of temptation. The enemy would seize the opportunity when the Lord was hungry. "The tempter coming up to him said, If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones may become loaves of bread", verse 3. Well, the Lord is ready for him. The Lord is ready for the conflict; He is not giving up the battleground. It was to be in the wilderness. The Lord is carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit. The Lord's answer is not according to the tempter's inquiry. It refers to the food that man should eat. There is light in it -- light as to God and man. Thus the matter is settled.

T.E.H. Is this the first gracious service by the Spirit after having descended? It must have been peculiarly delightful to the Spirit to lead this Man into the wilderness.

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J.T. Well, the reference to the Spirit at the end of chapter 3 as coming on Jesus is not Pentecost; that was after the Lord was glorified. The coming on Jesus was personal, not consequent on redemption, as in the case of believers. Here the tempter came up, and said to the Lord, "If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones may become loaves of bread". We have been already remarking that the Lord did not accede to that, although sonship is one of the leading subjects in this gospel. But the Lord is leaving it for the moment, because there is something else that He would bring in and He would not take up what the devil would introduce. He would select His own battleground, and the subject, hence the Lord brings in manhood, and that by which man should live.

D.P. Did the devil discern that there was a different order of manhood now on the scene?

J.T. I would think that. The Lord is at least showing that it is a question of man. "But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth", verse 4. It is man, and how he is to live.

J.T.Jr. The fasting clearly did not bring about any weakness, because it says, "Afterwards he hungered".

J.T. The Lord is equal to any position, and if it be a question of the will of God requiring the position, then the Lord is equal to that, too; and of course, Gethsemane is the prime idea as to that; how the Lord went deliberately through it.

S.M. Is there a similar thought in the way Abraham met the king of Sodom in Genesis 14? It says, "I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah, the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth, if ... I take anything ... that thou mayest not say, I have made Abram rich", verses 20 - 23.

J.T. Quite so; Melchisedec had brought out bread and wine to meet Abram, as returning from the slaughter

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of the kings. Bringing out bread and wine was a provision of God. He is a type of the Lord in the millennium. He is bringing forth bread and wine. It is a provision of God for a servant in conflict, but the Lord did not need it. He was equal to the position. He did not need to prepare. He is ready even in Gethsemane.

R.W.S. The circumstances seem to be designed externally to give the tempter an advantage, in that the Lord hungered, so that the devil brings up the matter of food.

J.T. Quite so; what seems to be may not be, you know. The Lord is over all that. He is greater than all that, because the principle is, He is stronger than the devil.

C.A.M. Was there a verification of the truth of the Lord's words, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth", in the holy life of the Lord in this wilderness position? Was not hungering a demonstration that that was so? He lived, surely, by every word of God.

J.T. Yes.

F.S.C. Would the forty days and forty nights link on with the experience of Moses, the lawgiver?

J.T. Yes; all these facts show that the Lord had part, in some sense, in all the afflictions of the testimony, but no one had part in what we have here. It is the Lord in His supremacy.

J.H.E. Would John 4 help? When the disciples came back with the food, the Lord said: "I have food to eat which ye do not know", verse 32.

J.T. Quite so; they thought that He would be dependent on the food that they had been buying for Him, but it was not so. We never can compass the Lord. We can never assume anything as to the Lord. We must learn that He is beyond all natural calculations.

J.H.E. Jesus was carried up into the wilderness by

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the Spirit and if we are carried by the Spirit we will be in power.

J.T. It is wonderful that it should be said that He was carried. Why should we have that word? In Luke He is led of the Spirit in the wilderness; not into, but in; here it is that He was carried into the wilderness.

W.F.K. In Mark He is driven; He is viewed as the servant in that Gospel.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. In verse 4, it says, "He answering said, It is written ..." Does the allusion to what is written instruct us?

J.T. That is a very important matter. We are to go by the word of God, but when we come to Christ we cannot limit Him to the written word for He is God. We have to see what the thing is by what He does. I am not to assume there is just an ordinary man before me in the Scriptures.

J.A.P. So that even a great man like Elijah lasted only one day in the wilderness in 1 Kings 19 before the angels fed him. Does that show our weakness in encountering the wilderness?

J.T. Yes; that scripture is wonderful and very encouraging. Elijah was in the wilderness, but he had two breakfasts that day, according to the record, which is very remarkable. He went in the strength of those breakfasts forty days and forty nights. That is not just what we get with Christ. We get something new with the Lord in all these matters.

R.W.S. Are you looking at this as the Lord being unique in this position, or is there some way in which we are to experience something of this?

J.T. I think it is a question now of the uniqueness of the gospels. The gospels open up the truth as no other section of Scripture does. It is a question of placing yourself where you can learn from them. The gospels are unique.

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A.N.W. Is it the manna or is it something different? The angels are interested in this matter and ministered to him. I wondered whether there was something connected with that in the Psalm: "Man did eat the bread of the mighty", Psalm 78:25.

J.T. Well, when we come to Christ. He is the food Himself. So that it is what He brings in Himself. In the gospels we are to learn everything from Christ. The epistles, of course, are teaching based on gift, but the gospels are written by the Spirit of God as unfolding the life and ministry of Christ. Everything must begin there. So that we are not directed, in Acts 2, to Moses or others in the Old Testament. We are directed to the apostles and only to the apostles, because they are the authoritative witnesses of Christ. And so when we come to the gospels it is not a question of what the apostles wrote, but of Christ Himself. It was what was there in Him. From Him we are to learn everything.

F.H.L. Are there features of manhood here which are completely equal to every test?

J.T. He is more than equal, because He is stronger than the strong man.

A.A.T. I notice that in the section of Deuteronomy 8 from which the Lord quotes, "Man doth not live by bread alone", it says of the Israelites that God had humbled them and suffered them to hunger and fed them with manna. Is that in contrast to what we have in Matthew 4?

J.T. We are on Deuteronomy ground now as we are considering the temptations in Matthew. But what I am endeavouring to impress the brethren with is that we are to begin with Christ. It is not something happening in Him that has happened before, exactly. In principle, all is new, and all begins with Him.

A.R. Deuteronomy stresses the thought of the man Moses throughout.

J.T. Quite so. It is what he unfolded. So that he

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is a type of Christ, in Deuteronomy: "Began Moses to unfold this law". He began to do it. It was an unfolding in Deuteronomy. In this sense, Moses is a type of Christ. Besides, quotations in the gospels from the Old Testament have a new setting beginning with Christ.

A.B.P. Would the Lord be seen here as taking His place in relation to the human race? His answer to the tempter is, "Man shall not live by bread alone".

J.T. Well, quite so. What I think we have to see first, is that the Lord turns to the subject of man; but then, we are to think of Him first. How are we to take account of Him in the matter? What view am I going to get of Him in this position? Therefore, we learn that He is being tempted but He is in charge. He is the stronger, and whatever is done He takes the initiative. We have to wait and see just what will be unfolded, and it is clear that the Lord is not taking on the enemy's suggestions. He is bringing in what is His own. That is, it is what He is saying, Himself.

S.M. Has He begun to spoil things here? He binds the strong man and spoils his goods. Did the first man fail on this line of temptation?

J.T. Just so. But then, to bring in Adam as a comparison is not great enough. We want to get something out of what the Lord is going to say and what He is going to open up. "But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth". It is not simply that He is going to live by what God says in a general way, "but by every word which goes out through God's mouth". That is what is to be noted. It is every word; not simply the general idea, but every word.

C.A.M. You are pressing the thought that now we have a view of manhood that we never had before.

J.T. Yes, we are now where we can get things that we have never heard before.

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J.H.E. The apostle Paul, in 2 Corinthians 5:17, says, "So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away". Do we have to arrive at that position? In Corinth they were applying the old things to Christ after the flesh.

J.T. Just so; there is such a thing as new creation. It is not exactly for us to say what is new creation, but there is such a thing as that: "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation".

C.A.M. We know we are approaching perfection when we approach Christ and it is learning everything from Christ that you have been stressing. Is not one of our weaknesses that we are so liable to bring in our experiences?

J.T. Quite so. I am sure of that. Of course, we are not to ignore what we have already learned; but really, to get the full position, you have to sit down, as it were, and say, I have to learn everything. I suppose that is what Mary implies when she says, "Rabboni", which means, 'My Teacher'.

R.W.M. "Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died", John 6:49. Is that in contrast to what we are saying?

J.T. The Jews had referred to that in John 6:31, in speaking to the Lord. They brought up one thing, but He said something else. We have just to see the something else in the gospels, and sit down, as it were, and listen to what that something else may mean, because we may be sure that we need experience. "... began Moses to unfold this law", is the same idea. It is the unfolding of things.

Ques. Would 'every word' call attention to this Man?

J.T. I think it is right to bring that in, because that is how the matter would go -- what God would say would refer to Christ. It is remarkable that in Numbers 7 we have 89 verses relating to the dedication of the

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altar, and a prince from each tribe has his day of service. It is the unfolding of what was needed for the dedication of the altar. Every man had the same thing to offer. And yet, every man's offering is opened up and unfolded because God is pleased with the things that are presented. He is, as it were, occupied with it for the moment, and presently. He will say something about it. Following the offerings of the princes it is said that Moses went in to speak to God, and he heard a voice speaking to him. That is the point. It is not what Moses will say, but what God will say, and every thing after that is, "And Jehovah spoke to Moses saying ..." Chapters 6 and 7 end the first section of the book of Numbers and thus what we have been saying as to divine speaking fits in there.

J.T.Jr. We have God's voice in Matthew 3 to correspond with what you are speaking of in Numbers.

J.T. Just so. I hope I am not saying anything to divert the brethren because I quite understand that others have something to say; only I wish to impress the brethren with the fact that it is a question of God in the gospels. It is not what Paul writes, or what Peter writes; it is what the gospels unfold. John and Matthew and others may be used in writing them, but the Spirit of God is the direct Author. What God is in Christ is directly presented in the gospels, and we have, as it were, to sit down there and learn everything.

A.McN. The Lord is Master of the situation here; it is vastly different when applied to us, because only He could say, "The ruler of the world comes, and in me he has nothing", John 14:30. He was not subject to him in any way. He was superior to him in everything.

J.T. I suppose we may proceed with the temptations, because it is the first part of our subject in this reading. It says, "And the tempter coming up to him said, If thou be Son of God, speak, that these stones may become loaves of bread", verse 3. This is the devil.

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And now we are to listen to what the Lord says. If we listen to the devil, we will be diverted and darkened: "But he answering said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth". What that meant to Him!

J.T.Jr. Do you think the apostle would have something like this in mind when he said that every scripture is divinely inspired?

J.T. Quite so. "And profitable", 2 Timothy 3:16.

A.P.T. In view of what you have said, the officers in John 7 are to be credited. They were sent to take Jesus, and when they came back, they said, "Never man spoke thus, as this man speaks", verse 46. Does it fit into what you are suggesting as to that which comes out of God's mouth?

J.T. Yes. They were affected by what they saw and heard in Christ, and what affected them was that there never was a Speaker like Him. "Never man spoke thus, as this man speaks". It is a question of what He is saying, and also how He says it.

W.W.M. The Lord says, in John 6, "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me", verse 57. Is there any correspondence?

J.T. Well, there must be, because John 6 is eating to live and here it is living by every word of God. The Lord says much in John 6 about food, and we are now dealing with food. So it says, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth". Now the Lord speaks of the living Father: "As the living Father has sent me and I live on account of the Father, he also who eats me shall live also on account of me". There must be something in that as to the Lord living by the Father, to correspond with what we are saying. So, "He also who eats me". We have to see what the eating of the food in John really means, that it is Christ's flesh and the drink is

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Christ's blood. So we have to follow that up and see whether it does not enter into the teaching of christianity. Of course it does. It is John's gospel; and undoubtedly, as suggested, the eating there would help us as to what we are dealing with here, only it is a question of God's mouth, and what goes out through it; every word that goes out through God's mouth. Man shall live by that.

D.P. Does Luke 4 have any bearing on what you were saying? "And all bore witness to him, and wondered at the words of grace which were coming out of his mouth", verse 22.

J.T. Quite so. Words of grace in Christ's mouth! That is characteristically Luke's gospel. But now it is a question of the word that goes out through God's mouth and how man is to live by it.

J.S. What does that convey to your mind?

J.T. Well, it is our being brought into touch with God; of our getting what He says, and every word that He says. What a theme there is thus opened up! Think of the extent of it for man and how the Lord would rob the devil of his material. He takes away the armour in which he trusts. That is what the Lord did here.

Rem. God's word is food.

A.B.P. Peter tells us in his epistle about the voice that was heard from the excellent glory. It would seem as though he lived in the enjoyment of those words which were heard on the mount of transfiguration.

J.T. Just so. That opens up something that is most interesting -- the touch which we get from Peter on the sonship of Christ. The Lord is not being led into the thought of sonship at this point. He is guarding against that here. He has something else in mind and He is keeping to that. It is what God says and what man is to eat. It is what comes out of the mouth of God. What you have referred to is the only word we get about the sonship of Christ from Peter in his ministry, which is a remarkable thing.

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Ques. Is it right to say that the Lord takes the initiative in saying, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which goes out through God's mouth"?

J.T. Yes. The next thing is, "Then the devil takes him to the holy city". The devil is attacking here and we have to see how the Lord meets this attack. It goes on to say, "... and sets him upon the edge of the temple, and says to him, If thou be Son of God cast thyself down; for it is written, He shall give charge to his angels concerning thee, and on their hands shall they bear thee, lest in anywise thou strike thy foot against a stone. Jesus said to him, It is again written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God", verses 5 - 7. The Lord is not allowing Himself to be diverted by the devil at all. He chooses the battleground. He is meeting him, and He is overthrowing him. That is what He is doing.

F.H.L. Is the enemy using deception here in taking the Lord to the house of God and misquoting Psalm 91:11?

J.T. Quite so. Moreover the devil is seeking to keep the idea of the Son of God prominent, whereas the Lord is not making that the issue. He is not going to be diverted at all. What we are saying is most important for all of us. If we are carrying on in the testimony we are in the conflict, and we are not to be diverted by what the enemy is doing or saying, and we are to meet him by the truth and not by what he is saying.

A.McN. Hence the importance of the emphasis you put on what "goes out through God's mouth". It is a present thing. We are to be careful and earnest about heeding what the Spirit says.

J.T. Just so. We want to keep with God and listen to what is coming out through His mouth. It is not simply the idea of an address which we may hear at some time, but what is current, what goes out through God's mouth.

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R.W.S. Would that be like the prophetic word, "He wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed", Isaiah 50:4? Morning by morning the Lord would have something fresh from God's mouth.

J.T. That is very suggestive.

J.T.Jr. That section of Isaiah brings in the conflict. He asks who the opposer is and says, "who is mine adverse party? let him draw near unto me. Behold the Lord Jehovah will help me".

A.N.W. Do you think that in the corresponding section in Luke's record the Lord gives the truth special force? Twice, He says, It is written, but the third time, He says, It is said. The enemy is defeated at that point.

J.T. Yes; that is to be noted, as giving the scripture quoted immediate force. The Lord can do that.

A.R. Why does Matthew put the religious side before the political in the temptations?

J.T. Because it is a feature of Matthew. In Luke Satan brings forward the kingdoms of this world first; but in Matthew it is a question of the Jews and what was in the temple. So that verse 5 says, "Then the devil takes him to the holy city, and sets him upon the edge of the temple, and says to him, If thou be Son of God cast thyself down". Now, the next temptation is, "Again the devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shews him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory, and says to him, All these things will I give thee if, falling down, thou wilt do me homage. Then says Jesus to him, Get thee away, Satan", verses 8 - 10. The Lord is done with the matter. It is finished from His point of view. The last thing brought in here is the kingdoms of this world; the political side; the glory of the world. So that it would seem as if in Matthew the enemy is attacking the position, first by the temple, what the religious men would be occupied with, and then what would occupy a worldly man; that is, the kingdoms of this world, which would be a political

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matter. That is the last thing. The devil has to go when that fails. If we were out on the street tonight, we would see what is in mind in this third temptation, for it is Election Day. The kingdoms of this world are in the minds of the politicians. But the Lord at this point tells Satan to go. He says, "Get thee away. Satan", meaning that he is now an out-and-out enemy of God. Thus we must disregard him. The Lord is showing here that the matter is finished. "Love not the world, nor the things in the world. If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father", 1 John 2:15, 16. That is the finish of the temptations in this gospel.

W.F.K. Satan offers Him the kingdoms but they are not his to give.

J.T. That is just what Satan will do. He presumes to have them. Then it says, "Then the devil leaves him". The Lord resists him here, and he flees from Him. "And behold, angels came and ministered to him", verse 11. That is another touch. They came; it is not said that the Lord asked for them.

A.B.P. Would it be noteworthy that each temptation leads to some fresh disclosure of God through the Lord's words? It is not merely that the enemy is met, but there is some positive disclosure of God.

J.T. That is just what I think we should keep before us in all that we are being occupied with in the gospels. We have Christ before us in the gospels, not simply Christ in relation to christianity, but Christ in relation to everything. The epistles, of course, are more limited. They are occupied with the assembly, generally, but the gospels are the broadest ground we can get on to. They include the millennium, at least in principle, and the eternal state of things, too.

Then we have: "But having heard that John was

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delivered up, he departed into Galilee: and having left Nazareth, he went and dwelt at Capernaum, which is on the sea-side in the borders of Zabulon and Nepthalim, that that might be fulfilled which was spoken through Esaias the prophet, saying, Land of Zabulon and land of Nepthalim, way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations -- the people sitting in darkness has seen a great light, and to those sitting in the country and shadow of death, to them has light sprung up. From that time began Jesus to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh", verses 12 - 17. So that we have the Lord, and the testimony, maintained in every respect; the devil being, as it were, disposed of.

Now, we have the Lord being affected by hearing that a servant, John the baptist, was put into prison. Verse 12 says, "He departed into Galilee". He moves as being affected by the circumstances. He also takes up another local position. Then we have the idea of light springing up. It is not simply light coming from heaven, but "the people sitting in darkness has seen a great light, and to those sitting in the country and shadow of death, to them has light sprung up". That is to say, it is the subjective side of things; the Holy Spirit producing things, and there is light, so that the Lord is in that position.

W.F.K. He is preaching the kingdom now, in contrast to the kingdoms of the world.

J.T. Yes. It says, "From that time began Jesus to preach and to say, Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh". Notice it is "from that time". His own position is changed; it is not stationary. He moves to a certain place. It says, "And having left Nazareth, he went and dwelt at Capernaum", which has a greater place than Nazareth in this gospel; in fact, generally, Capernaum was the external centre of the Lord's operations.

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J.S. He enlarged His borders.

J.T. Quite; no doubt to enhance His position, in circumstances suitable for the testimony, because a great deal happened at Capernaum; and thus, of course, it is more responsible. The Lord refers to it later in that way; but what I think we ought to see here, is the grouping of things in this chapter. We should see how the Lord moves His position and what happens after that; especially the light springing up. It is light springing up, not coming down from heaven.

A.B.P. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. In Capernaum we get material for the assembly.

J.T. Yes. But the chapter ends in recounting the great works of Christ and their extent. The Spirit of God is impressing us, at this point, with how great and extensive the works of Christ had become. His fame had spread abroad. The passage, beginning with verse 23, reads thus: "And Jesus went round the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness". At the present time there is much of the latter, and much death too, and it is intended to affect us. "And his fame went out into the whole of Syria". The fame of Christ is to be noted. Think of that as a theme! But the chapter has the idea of grouping. Matters are being stated rapidly and events are closing up quickly, because the Lord is going on to a point. They bring to Him "all that were ill, suffering under various diseases and pains, and those possessed by demons, and lunatics, and paralytics; and he healed them. And great crowds followed him from Galilee, and Decapolis, and Jerusalem, and Judea, and beyond the Jordan". We get a similar statement to this in chapter 9, but the Spirit of God is hastening on so that we might be impressed with the greatness of the Lord's

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work. How much can be done by one Person!

R.W.S. This involves great continuation.

J.T. That is the word that may be used, and what can be done by one person. Of the dear servant whom we so often quote, someone said, 'Set the world right by one man'. His father said that to him. It would give him something to do and give him some idea of what had to be done.

T.E.H. On the third day God said, "Let the earth cause grass to spring up", Genesis 1:11. It would be a mighty work of God to cause light to spring up, as is mentioned in verse 16.

J.T. Matthew is to impress us with that; the magnitude of the work that the Lord Jesus had undertaken and how it is all now centred in the assembly, and that the assembly is to be preserved and kept in view of the end.

J.T.Jr. When the Lord came into Capernaum things started to move.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. "And he healed them", verse 24, says. That would indicate there was nothing unadjusted.

J.T. No doubt we all love to think of the work of God, and perhaps feel how small we are in it when we compare it with this marvellous undertaking that the Lord is presented as accomplishing in this section of Matthew's gospel. We shall meet the same thing in chapter 9, but the Spirit brings it in here at this early stage clearly that we may see what the work of God implies, and be stimulated in it, "abounding always in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord", 1 Corinthians 15:58. That is the idea.

R.W.S. The passage speaks of "various diseases and pains". But then it mentions "those possessed by demons, and lunatics, and paralytics", the most impossible people, but He healed them. It is marvellous!

J.T. One has often thought of lunacy; there is so much of it and we have, alas, to contend with it. But

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how encouraging is what is said here! He healed them!

A.P.T. Verse 23 refers to "the whole of Galilee", and verse 24 speaks of "the whole of Syria". It is a tremendous undertaking.

J.T. Very good. Someone was speaking to me the other day about missionary work and why we are not doing it. But this is the idea. It is the whole of the thing and the completion of it. That is what the Lord performed. Who can question it? It is very stimulating. But while we have the light and stimulation of the glorious work of Christ thus seen in Matthew, we have to accept humbly that we are in the day of small things, the truth is generally so disregarded that the Holy Spirit is grieved and quenched and that the work of God is reduced. Still, He is encouraging His people to continue, knowing that our labour is not in vain in the Lord.

W.W.M. Is it important to notice that "they brought to him all that were ill". Is that the point?

J.T. It is indeed. It says, "and he healed them". Elsewhere a man says to the Lord that he brought his son to the disciples and they were not able to heal him, but the Lord says, "Bring him here to me", Matthew 17:17.

S.F. We have referred to Galilee of the nations and the Lord's fame going abroad into Syria. The word in Malachi is, "My name is terrible among the nations", chapter 1: 14.

J.T. Yes. Romans helps further. The apostle's epistles are specially confirmatory of the service of Christ in the gospels. And so Romans 15 tells us about Paul's ministry and how wide it was, from Jerusalem round about to Illyricum. He had fully preached the glad tidings of Christ there.

E.A.L. The Lord's word, "Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn nigh" is a repetition of what John says. Is that the Lord confirming the work of the servant?

J.T. Just so. The Lord would do that, because He

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said, before He left the disciples, that they should do greater works than He did, "because", as He said, "I go to the Father", John 14:12. And, of course, He would bring that out. But the gospels are what He did, and that is what we are engaged in now.

T.E.H. How do we bring persons who need help in a locality to the Lord?

J.T. We begin with the smallness of things, and then others may be saying, Well, what are you doing? What is the result of the work? And of course, there will be plenty of reproach. But after all, there is something going on, something being done in the power of the Spirit. Our little meetings on the Lord's day evenings accomplish something. That something is not to be despised, and you will find, if you follow it up, whatever there is, it is in some way in keeping with what the Lord does.

R.H.S. Do you think we can have any effect on these serious cases you referred to by prayer and fasting today?

J.T. We have had such cases. We have had the most remarkable physical recoveries. There is one even now that is in question; a case that seemed beyond the doctors. We cannot say very much, but at the same time if there is a little it is well to take account of it. So James says, "Is any sick among you? let him call to him the elders of the assembly", chapter 5: 14. Note that the elders of the assembly are to be called. The sick person is to send for them.

A.R. The prayers of the saints can do much.

J.T. That is what the passage says: "And the prayer of faith shall heal the sick". If a man even has sinned this need not stand in the way. He shall be forgiven. There are such things -- forgiveness of sins and healing of diseases too. There is something being done, and let nobody say it is not so; because what we are saying is the truth. What is done may be only a very little but even a little is something.

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A.R. The gospel is preached involving light and God blesses it. That there are not many converts is true, but continual work is being done; a great deal is the result of the prayer meeting.

J.T. Much is happening in the way of freshening the saints, saving them in that way.

T.E.H. We are reminded of the incident in Luke 8:26 - 39. The people came out and saw the man out of whom the demons had gone sitting, clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus.

J.T. Yes. And then, as we were saying, there is that which is being done now. Some of us who go about more than others may see something of what is happening. There are conversions; there are changes in men's lives; men and women are coming into the assembly. They are leaving the world and are coming into fellowship, and in considerable numbers, and a good many, even now, are being restored who turned away years ago. We are not to ignore these things. It would be a discredit to the Lord if we did ignore them. We are to take account of all that He is doing, thankful indeed that we have any part in it.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (4)

Matthew 5:1 - 26; Matthew 7:24 - 29

J.T. We are all aware that this series of readings is in the gospel of Matthew. At the opening reading attention was called to the fact that the ascension of Christ is not mentioned in this gospel. On the other hand, it was pointed out that the Lord speaks of Himself, in the gospel, as with the disciples all the days, until the completion of the age; so that stability is suggested, not from the standpoint of what is in heaven or of our heavenly relations, but because of what is here on earth. The Lord Himself promised that He would be with the disciples throughout the dispensation, and then the Spirit would be here, although that is not stressed so much, but clearly it is in mind, to be apprehended throughout the gospel. And then another feature is the mountains which come into evidence, which goes with the idea of stability, as has been remarked. They involve stability and conspicuousness, not as heavenly bodies or what is in heaven, but what is present on earth in the sense of stability.

J.S. What is conspicuous here?

J.T. Yes; what is here is just the point. It says, "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain". It is over against the plain or valley.

J.S. Why is it called the mountain?

J.T. The article points to the characteristics of the mountain. It is over against the idea of the plain or the valley and is a well-known expression in countries which have mountains.

A.R. Is this one of the mountains that are round about Jerusalem, Psalm 125?

J.T. That is the idea of it, I think. The reference is in the Songs of degrees, or ascent, which would carry with it just what we have been saying. The mountains are round about Jerusalem; so that the idea

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conveyed here would be what is round about the assembly; what is for our protection.

W.F.K. Is this teaching in the mount only for disciples? It says that His disciples came to Him there. Is that a higher spiritual elevation?

J.T. Just so; the idea of the mountain runs right through. Chapter 4 has one but it is hardly in keeping with what we are saying now. It is the one to which the devil took the Lord. It is said, "Again the devil takes him to a very high mountain, and shows him all the kingdoms of the world, and their glory", verse 8. It is a similar thought, only the enemy is taking advantage of it to attempt to mislead the Lord.

A.A.T. It says, in chapter 8, that when He came down from the mountain He met a leper. Is that in the plain?

J.T. Exactly. It points to what is in the plain. We shall see more later in this inquiry, perhaps, as to chapter 8 and also chapter 17 where we have a similar allusion to what the Lord found after He came down from the mount of transfiguration. In chapter 14: 23 the Lord went up into a mountain apart to pray; a mountain is also referred to in chapter 15: 29, where it says that He sat down; then in chapter 17: 1 we have "a high mountain", which we often refer to as the mount of transfiguration; then in chapter 24 we are told that Jesus "was sitting upon the mount of Olives"; and in chapter 28 the disciples went to Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed. So that the idea runs right through the book and may be well regarded as denoting what is available, in the sense of mountains, for protection.

A.I. Would the disciples be in keeping with what the Lord was doing?

J.T. They were in keeping as seen in our chapter, because they represent persons that are not afraid to take journeys, and to sacrifice to get the advantages

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such as meetings like this afford. Meetings like this involve sacrifice, and the idea here would be that His disciples came to Him. He went up into the mountain and His disciples came to Him there. They knew He was there and He did not disappoint them, because it is said, "having opened his mouth, he taught them". It was worth their while to go up. And we would trust that a meeting like this is worth the while of the brethren to be here, the Spirit of God being here.

E.A.L. Would the words "having opened his mouth" link with chapter 4: 4, where it speaks of God's mouth?

J.T. Just so: "... every word which goes out through God's mouth". God was speaking in Christ.

T.E.H. Two mountains are referred to under the old economy (Deuteronomy 27). Jotham seemed to avail himself of one during a very distressing time among the people of God. It says that he stood upon mount Gerizim and cried, but when he was finished he ran away. What is the significance of him being afraid after having been on the mountain of blessing?

J.T. Well, running away would be to avoid violence, which is justifiable, if necessary. It says that it was because of Abimelech his brother.

T.E.H. He gave a most remarkable outline and warned of the result of not hearkening to God's voice.

J.T. Yes; he got his word in as to the kind of person that should rule. Abimelech was not that person, but Jotham had the right thought.

T.E.H. I was wondering if he had caught the spirit of the Lord Jesus, because this would involve universal rule eventually.

J.T. Exactly.

A.B.P. In Revelation 17:9 the woman is said to sit on seven mountains. Would that be a rival position to the strength of the assembly in Matthew?

J.T. I would say that; it would mean strength in the

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sense of political economy or the like. The Roman system, of course, was marked by that same thing; a form of strength in the sense of subordinated skill and experience.

R.W.S. So the Lord's ministry, or doctrine, is spoken of as having authority. "He taught them as having authority". Does that link on with stability -- the idea of the mountain?

J.T. It would be the strength that goes with authority when it is of God. And, of course, this was of God.

R.W.S. Is it not so today that there is authority in the ministry?

J.T. Just so. What we have already remarked as to stability is that it belongs to the assembly, really. In Acts 15 we have the idea of what is stable set out in certain who were pillars; who were a source of strength in the assembly. Peter would be one, as Galatians 2:9 shows. He would be a source of strength through divinely given stability. Stability is implied in this gospel. It is not exactly support from the heavenly side, by what comes down from heaven. That is found in the Acts. It is what arises in view of the Spirit being here; and of course, the Spirit being here involves a way for Christ being here. It is a way for the Lord being here. So that we have men who are truly pillars alluded to in that chapter, and they are actually called that in Galatians. And these meetings, which we have from time to time, are intended to be occasions of strength. The brethren are sustained in this way by instruction, and by example, and by fellowship. Where should we be without such meetings? Where should we be without the assembly and all that it involves? We come together and acquire strength mutually by coming together; but then the Lord adds to that, saying, "Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20. He is there for support; so that Matthew stresses the feature of strength, but

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strength arising from what is in the brethren, from what they are; and the Lord is here, and the Spirit is here, and the whole position is one of stability.

J.T.Jr. Would the legislative side, therefore, as suggested in these chapters, be enforceable? There would be strength in the legislation?

J.T. That is good. It is not a matter of so many speeches, as in well known legislative places in this and other countries where their speeches are numberless, and where there is an enormous volume of law. Someone has said that it would take six hundred years to read all the legal matter that has been published. Matthew is not that. Matthew is what is available for the assembly in brevity, without enlarging things unnecessarily. It is the strength of what is said.

C.A.M. I suppose that all that legislation is intended to bring blessing, if possible, which it does not do; but this starts with blessing?

J.T. Just so; these nine expressions of blessedness! Of course, that is the great basis of the gospel. It is a question of the legislative mountain, as we may call it, in this chapter. It begins with these blessings. And the reference is to persons; so that the thing is brought down to the disciples, and we may say, to ourselves. It is said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit", in verse 3, and so on down to verse 10, "Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness", but when we come to verse 11, it is, "Blessed are ye", that is, we have the persons who are blessed. "Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens; for thus have they persecuted the prophets who were before you". So that blessing is vouchsafed to us even today, in this company, when the enemy is attacking.

D.P. Why does the Lord sit down to minister in this position?

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J.T. I suppose to show it is deliberative. That is what we are doing now. It involves deliberation. We are weighing what we are saying. We have opportunity to do that. How much there is in it that affords strength for the brethren!

C.F.E. Following on these blessings it says in verse 13, "Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have become insipid, wherewith shall it be salted?" And then in verse 14, "Ye are the light of the world". Does that give them a dignified position?

J.T. It gives them a preservative position; and, of course, it would give them dignity if they were preserved. What we need is preservation; the whole scene around is polluted, but the salt is preservative. Light also is a preservative element, but salt is a very striking figure of what is preservative.

F.H.L. Would it appear that the test of the ministry on these mountains seems to come, in almost every case, at the foot of the mountain? This occurs in chapter 8, and then in chapter 14. The Lord comes off the mountain, and the evidence of the power is there.

J.T. Just so; and especially in chapter 17. It is so in the other gospels too, particularly in Mark 9:14 - 27. And the going up involves strength.

F.N.W. It says in Ezekiel 43:12, "This is the law of the house: Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy". Would that link with Matthew, showing how the constitution of the assembly is to be worked out from this elevated position.

J.T. Very good. It is a question of the law of the house; not the ten commandments, as we say, but law as a principle. "This is the law of the house: Upon the top of the mountain ..." It is a question of principle: a great word that belongs to christianity -- the word principle.

A.R. The last blessing has a reward in the heavens. Why is that?

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J.T. "Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens". You marvel at how prolific the idea of wickedness becomes. It says, "Every wicked thing". And it does not say the reward is in the mountains, because the heavens are in mind, too, in this gospel. They are in mind as conservatories, as it were, where things are kept secure; but the strength is down here where it is needed, where the enemy's power is. It is not that it comes down; it is there in these mountains. There are six of them in a good or positive sense, in this gospel.

R.W.S. It speaks earlier of certain who were "sitting in the country and shadow of death, to them has light sprung up". Is this thought of light springing up an extension of the fact of the Spirit being here?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking; it is a feature of Matthew. Light springing up is an allusion to the Spirit, I am sure. It is very precious and very comforting that there is such a thing as light springing up. John says, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4, but in Matthew, the light is springing up. It is found where the shadow of death was, but in John, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men". It is the implementation of Matthew showing how men are provided for as over against angels, or over against Israel, by what is in Christ. It is a question of light, but it is seen in life, and it is in Him. But Matthew says that it is springing up.

A.N.W. In John 9:5 the Lord says, "I am the light of the world", whereas here it is "Ye are the light of the world", verse 14.

J.T. So that we are reminded of, "Look on us", Acts 3:4, and we think of what the Lord is ready and able to do at any time in any gathering of His people. I mean to say, look at ourselves, in that sense. See

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what there is. "Ye are the light of the world". And also, "Ye are the salt of the earth". And then all these characteristics that are mentioned in the nine beatitudes are to call attention to what the saints are, and what you can expect from them.

J.S. So that in Matthew it is a question of what is established on earth.

J.T. Quite so.

W.F.K. It says that the pure in heart shall see God. How do we see God? Is it through Christ?

J.T. Just so. "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18. Things all must flow out from Christ. That is how a passage like that has to be understood, because everything hinges on Christ.

A.I. Would the apostle be one of "the poor in spirit" when he said he was less than the least of all saints? Would that answer to this?

J.T. Quite so. This passage would bear on Psalm 41:1: "Blessed is he that understandeth the poor". The poor are despised, but one who remembers such is valued. But here we have the "poor in spirit" as blessed. The qualities mentioned here are enrichments, which involve what we may look to and expect in one another for the carrying on of the testimony of God here below. It is what the saints are themselves and what may be worked out in them.

J.T.Jr. The Lord said to his disciples on one occasion, when they were suggesting fire from heaven, "Ye know not of what spirit ye are", Luke 9:55. Would the "poor in spirit" be a kind of characteristic quality in the saints: that they are to be marked by that?

J.T. I should think so. The Spirit of Christ says in the Psalm referred to, "Blessed is he that understandeth the poor". And Paul said that he was diligent

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to remember the poor, Galatians 2:10. He was always forward to do that, but then when you think of Christ, He is to be remembered as poor. What a Man among men! And He had nothing outwardly to rely on at all. What would He say if one were to ask Him, What have you? Well, there He is; let Him be considered, reverently, and see how He went on in spite of the poverty.

D.P. Would the Lord's legislation here excel that of Moses? and would the position He occupied set aside the temple? Moses was the great legislator in the Old Testament, but would he not be superseded here by Christ?

J.T. The question is whether the Lord means to set aside anything that was of God. He said, according to verse 17: "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass". So that this gospel contemplates that whatever there is of God, it is to be conserved and used.

J.S. He established the law; He did not make it void, but established it.

J.T. Well, quite so; the whole Pentateuch is ours. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable", 2 Timothy 3:16. Things that are profitable are to be valued; and see how this gospel provides for what there is and conserves it. Everything is conserved in Christ.

A.N.W. The alternate reading to 'fulfil', in the footnote is, 'Give the fulness of'. It is not exactly to fulfil a thing as being commanded to do it, but to give the fulness of it.

J.T. That is good; that is to say, Christ comes in, and whatever there is of God He will keep and fill it out as it had never been expressed before. It is to give the fulness of the thing. I think we have to look into the matter and see whether we are making use of everything

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there is, whether it be a Moses or any other. Think of how many persons there are in the Old Testament whose ministry is profitable! Take for example one man who particularly comes to my mind now, in 1 Chronicles 4:10 who asked for certain things and God granted them. It says, "And Jabez called on the God of Israel saying, Oh that thou wouldest richly bless me, and enlarge my border, and that thy hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God brought about what he had requested". God brought about what that man asked for. We have to look around and see what there is. There are small or little-known persons who have something from God, and it is to be utilised, and so the Old Testament is ours. And as 1 Corinthians 3:22 says, "All are yours".

J.A.P. In that meeting in Acts 15 James called on Amos for help.

J.T. Just so; he quoted from Amos 9. I think the brethren will confirm what has been said: that Matthew is the assembly gospel and the principle would be that everything is to be utilised. If it is usable, then keep it and make the most of it.

A.B.P. Is some new thing added in verse 22? The Lord refers in verse 21 to what had been said to the ancients, but then He goes on to say, "But I say unto you", as though something further is to be brought in in this new administration.

J.T. That is very important, too. There are other things in that section if we can move on now to further thoughts in this chapter. We have touched on the blessednesses that are mentioned earlier in the chapter and now we have these things. But there is one point that we have already touched on: "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away,

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one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass", verses 17, 18. So that we can see what treasuries there are in the Pentateuch for us to explore and utilise. But then there are additions here and that is a great matter that is stressed. The Lord says, "But I say unto you", verse 22. Now the mind is directed to a great Speaker; One who has the final word, too. In verse 20, it says, "For I say unto you, that unless your righteousness surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of the heavens". That is for us, to inquire as to what quality our righteousness is; we are challenged now as to the kind of righteousness we have. Then in verse 21 the Lord goes further, "Ye have heard that it was said to the ancients. Thou shalt not kill; but whosoever shall kill shall be subject to the judgment. But I say unto you, that every one that is lightly angry with his brother shall be subject to the judgment". The brethren should be reminded that emphasis is placed upon what the Lord says in this section: "I say ..." Attention is being called to the greater Speaker that is here. He is the One to whom we must pay attention. Then it goes on: "But whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be subject to be called before the sanhedrim; but whosoever shall say, Fool, shall be subject to the penalty of the hell of fire". I think there is instruction there that we should take notice of as to judgment. These things come into our care meetings and have to be looked into as to what they are, because sin is graded, and the Lord is grading sin here.

A.I. What would "lightly angry" with a brother mean?

J.T. Well, one word I would say about that is, "Be angry, and do not sin", Ephesians 4:26. Do not sin in being angry with your brother; but it is clear you have to regard your brother in his true value, and remember he is an important person in the mind of heaven, so do not deprecatingly say things about him.

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J.S. Were you going to say something about gradation?

J.T. There is not time to go into it in detail. Our brother was commenting on being angry with our brother; and then it speaks of calling your brother a fool. How lightly we may do these things and sin! But then the gradations are there down to verse 22. Then it goes on to say, "If therefore thou shouldest offer thy gift at the altar, and there shouldest remember that thy brother has something against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and first go, be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift", verses 23, 24. So we are told how to behave; that we cannot think we are perfect because we are offering a gift to God. We have to think of the past, too. God requires what is past; and we are to see about our brother; if he has anything against us, can we not amend it. I believe it is on the basis of Romans; being right with God, and being right on earth before we think of ascending to heaven.

W.F.K. Would this point to the gathering together to the Lord's supper?

J.T. That is right.

W.W.M. In mentioning Romans, did you have in mind chapter 8, where it says, "the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us", verse 4. Not only has it been fulfilled in Christ, but it is to be fulfilled in us now.

J.T. Just so -- so that if we speak of the Lord's coming, because we ought to speak of it constantly, for it is a precious expectation, then, what about our righteousness? That has to be attended to, but here we are reminded of the quality of our righteousness, not the volume, but the quality.

W.W.M. Would verse 23 refer to the sensitiveness of the Spirit in relation to the fact that a brother has something against you? That consciousness would be

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brought about by the Spirit and affect one in such a way that he would be exercised about it?

J.T. Yes. The Spirit would be present to remind you.

W.W.M. It speaks of those "who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit". If I walk according to flesh I think of myself, but if the Spirit is operating with me I think of my brother.

J.T. So that the priestly state would refer to this, offering something to God, but in that priestly state, if something comes up in your mind that you recognise has to be straightened out here before we go up we have to pursue the matter until it is straightened out.

A.A.T. I notice the way this question is handled here is, that if the brother has anything against you, you are to take it up with him; but in Matthew 18 it is the other way around.

J.T. Matthew 18 has to be looked at from a distance. It is an objective view. You are to consider for the meeting, for the assembly.

C.F.E. You spoke about the quality of our righteousness. Were you referring to verse 20? It says, "For I say unto you, that unless your righteousness surpass that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of the heavens".

J.T. Yes. I had in my mind what is said in Genesis 15 about righteousness; that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. That is a fine quality of righteousness; faith reckoned as righteousness; not simply what you do with your hands, but faith being reckoned to you as righteousness. It is the quality of righteousness.

R.W.S. There seems to be a certain ruggedness which the Lord is developing in this gospel to carry the truth forward, a sort of rugged fibre in the spiritual constitution, because all these features must finally be carried forward. The Lord says, "Again I say to you,

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that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter", Matthew 18:19.

J.T. Yes; to illustrate that, I would refer to the book called "The Irrationalism of Infidelity". It is a very rugged production, but a very effective one as dealing with evil. We have to be rugged in dealing with evil sometimes, and I think that when we come to chapter 23 of this book, we shall see what that ruggedness means, how the Lord deals with evil. He used strong language, and we get touches of it here.

E.A.L. Righteous anger would be distinct from "lightly angry". Being easily angered may arise from personal feelings; whereas righteous anger would be more in relation to assembly matters.

J.T. Yes; and strong language may be necessary, too. If we look at chapter 23 we shall see how strong the language is: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites", verse 29. It is strong, rugged language, but how effective! It is the Lord Himself that is using it.

E.T.P. Paul's language was rugged in connection with Peter when he withstood him to the face, Galatians 2:11.

J.T. Just so; you might say it was not seemly that a younger man should be so strong in speaking to an older brother, because Peter was actually older than Paul, but Paul says, "I withstood him to the face, because he was to be condemned".

A.R. Who is the judge and the officer in verse 25 of this chapter?

J.T. "Make friends with thine adverse party quickly, whilst thou art in the way with him; lest some time the adverse party deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say to thee, Thou shalt in no wise come out thence till thou hast paid the last farthing". I would say they belong to the heavenly system. There are many so-called officers or policemen here in this city.

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They are called 'officers of the law', but there are a good many judicial men, too. The judicial department in this city is big, and the one in Washington is bigger still, and it has to be respected. I refer to this just to call attention to the system. This country has a legal system, and the heavenly system has a legal department and the judge is supposed to be there; so that in the book of Leviticus, where leprosy is dealt with, there is always supposed to be a priest there. He is constantly needed; he is never wanting. It never has to be said that there is no priest. The divine system has these departments, and David's regime implied that. It was departmental; David's twenty-four courses; the number twenty-four instead of the number twelve was to show how the thing was intensified. And so, in the book of Revelation, you have the number twenty-four carried out. The book requires it.

G.V.D. What answers in the assembly's day to the sanhedrim in verse 22?

J.T. That was a Jewish court, having a supreme character, but in Deuteronomy 16:18 lesser or lower courts are spoken of. If you make comparisons between christianity and Judaism, you might call them local care meetings. There were lesser bodies in different cities, so that instead of going to Jerusalem, they could settle matters in them.

G.V.D. It had to do with one who was contentious, who said to his brother, Raca; that one is subject to be called before the sanhedrim.

J.T. The sanhedrim, as said before, had supreme authority, and could deal with such a matter.

J.T.Jr. The Lord suggests, in verse 25, to settle matters out of court; that is, without taking them to court. "Make friends with thine adverse party quickly, whilst thou art in the way with him". The thing would not need to go any further if it were settled in that way.

J.T. It is a very happy thing if you can have matters

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settled out of court, so to speak, because it means that love exists if you settle things without formal assembly attention.

E.A.L. Do you think that one thing which prevents our being quickly reconciled is that we carry resentment against what the brethren have done, instead of recognising the Scripture and working matters out on a spiritual basis?

J.T. Just so; we are anticipating a little, but chapter 18 provides for two or three to be brought into the matter before taking it to the assembly. The matter can be settled out of court if love exists.

E.A.L. Reconciliation is suggested in verse 24: "First go, be reconciled to thy brother".

J.T. These are important points. We are not yet in chapter 18 where things are settled in court; where assembly authority is asserted. In this chapter, the Lord is legislating for smaller matters. You might say, we are on the mount of legislation, and in law there are small matters and great matters, so I think these instructions are for small matters; the idea of being reconciled.

R.H.S. Does the fact that it says, "Lest some time the adverse party deliver thee to the judge", suggest that there is time for the offender to be reconciled to his adversary?

J.T. Yes; but be careful; he may not wait! He may proceed to the judge, but this small court, as it were, is provided so that we can settle small matters and go along happily.

F.H.L. You have referred to the wear and tear on the circle of fellowship. Would not the law provide a constitution that would resist all that.

J.T. Just so.

D.Macd. Does verse 26 indicate that unless we are reconciled God's government may come upon us?

J.T. I think that is a very wholesome inquiry, because God's government comes in. God does not

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have to give an account of His matters. Things may happen and we may not get any account of why they happen, but if one should go back in one's history he will know. So, we should see to matters. "Verily I say to thee, Thou shalt in no wise come out thence till thou hast paid the last farthing". That is the government of God.

E.A.L. I think you have said that metropolitanism, as understood in the light of the truth, is not a geographical thing but a heavenly one.

J.T. That is right. Metropolitanism, if brought down to our time, is the heavenly side; 'Jerusalem above' is heavenly. Therefore, metropolitanism today would be that we have recourse to heaven, if the brethren understand what I mean. The metropolitan idea is seen in the book of Acts, up to chapter 14, when eldership was first inaugurated. When eldership was inaugurated it was with the idea that there was the means of dealing with matters locally, because the elders would be men who had experience with God.

T.E.H. Did Jethro provide for these smaller matters being attended to, calling for skill in others besides Moses?

J.T. Quite so. In Exodus 18, Jethro proposed to Moses that he should have helpers in the judgment as carrying on the service of God among the Israelites; that he should have chiefs of tens, and fifties, and hundreds, and thousands; that he should not be required to do everything himself. That was the idea; what Jethro advised Moses was right and Moses accepted it. But Hobab, who appears to be his son, in Numbers 10, is not of any value at all. So that we might be misled if we were to make too much of Jethro or anyone like him. They are children of the wilderness. They do not characteristically belong to heaven. Jethro did well in Exodus 18, but in Numbers 10 Hobab would not go with them into Canaan. He would not be eyes for

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Israel; he was a child of the wilderness and said he would return to his own land. Therefore, you would not rely too much on that type of man. It is only the heavenly man that can be relied on fully. "He who comes from above is above all", John 3:31. You can rely on Him.

A.B.P. Would it be out of place to ask, in relation to administration, if there is a scriptural basis for meetings in a general area, but in separate towns, working together in relation to administrative matters? Is it a right principle that separate municipalities in the same general area work together as one, administratively?

J.T. We might begin with what is being done in this city, and in other cities where there are more meetings than one, but are regarded as all in the same city, that they work together, as in Corinth. But you have in mind separate towns that have no direct municipal relation, and that they assume to work together?

A.B.P. There are several instances in this country where that is being done, I believe, and I was wondering about the principle that relates to it in the light of what we have been speaking about. Is this a right question to bring into this meeting?

J.T. What we have just said is clear enough, that is what we are going on with in this city; but then, if you go across the river you will find several meetings that are not related to each other as we are here, and therefore there are different circumstances, and the principles governing these circumstances have to be considered. Perhaps you would state clearly, by example, what you mean.

A.B.P. I simply had in mind what is being done in the Boston area, and at Winnipeg and St. James, and elsewhere, and has been considered for a long time in the San Francisco area. One thought it may be appropriate to ask the question here, for help as to the

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principle underlying the working together administratively of meetings that are not really in the same city.

J.T. Then the question comes up immediately whether the word city applies to the area, and in some cases that is so, and in others the brethren who reside there do not think so. If you can designate that it is a city the matter is clear, for there can be only one assembly in a city. Paul directed Titus to "establish elders in each city", Titus 1:5. Therefore, when greater New York was inaugurated, all the boroughs of the city were regarded as New York because they were all governed by one mayor. Thus other places can be so designated on the same principle. In general, the local brethren in any place should be able to name it.

A.P.T. In Acts 16 it says that Paul came to Derbe and Lystra. And then later on it says that Timothy had a good testimony of the brethren in Lystra and Iconium. There seems to be one idea there with respect to several places: Derbe and Lystra in verse 1, and Lystra and Iconium in verse 2. There seem to be several cities there all together.

J.T. You cannot be sure as to whether they were regarded as one, because reports of a brother's conduct, or qualities, or value in the service, may spread far beyond his local meeting. Besides, chapter 14: 6 links Derbe as a city with Lycaonia and Lystra.

A.P.T. It says that a certain disciple was there.

J.T. 'There', I believe, should be taken as referring to Lystra as last mentioned, especially as Derbe is regarded as a city, as already remarked. I do not think the facts would warrant our regarding it other than that the cities were there and that Timothy was well reported of the brethren in those places.

R.W.S. Acts 20:4 says, "Timotheus of Derbe".

J.T. There you get the brother's locality. I am glad you mentioned that because that passage mentions several others, and the point was to bring out that the

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work of God was designated in all these different places including Derbe.

F.H.L. The principle remains that assembly administration has a local character.

J.T. Just so. We are referring to the constitutionality of the assembly, but now that this matter has come up, we might cite London as a clear case of where wisdom is required because various changes had to be made from the time of the revival of the truth to the present. And brethren in other localities where there are several meetings will be well advised if they follow what is done there. The immense increase in the growth of cities shows that great wisdom is needed in the determination of boundaries. The history of the work of God has to be noted carefully. And where the metropolitan thought is already applied it should not be ignored.

E.A.L. Do you think the idea of Decapolis, denoting ten cities, may be a help in that regard?

J.T. That is good, too; the grouping of the city idea and the accumulated evil that is inevitably involved being kept in mind. The idea of 'ten' has in mind the responsibility that is there. I believe that is what enters into that particular section of scripture.

D.P.C. In Acts 15, we see brethren gathered together, some from distant parts of the world. Would you say that was a great general conference?

J.T. I do not think there was one like it before, and there has never been one since which has had the support of the Spirit. That is the last general council we get in the Scriptures. It is as if God were to say, in receding from Jerusalem, that He loved it and was hesitant to leave it. He had that council there to bring out and expose the doctrines of Judaism, which were being used of the devil to corrupt the assembly. God settled the issue in Jerusalem; He settled the matter there, and Paul and those with him had to go there.

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A.P.T. In chapter 5, Jerusalem is called, "The city of the great king", verse 35.

J.T. These expressions ought to be noticed in Matthew for it is the only gospel in which Jerusalem is called "the holy city", chapter 4: 5 and 27: 53.

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THE LORD -- THE DEFENDER OF THE FAITH

Zechariah 3:1, 2; 2 Timothy 4:16 - 18

I wish to show you how that for which Jerusalem stood in the Old Testament times is now connected with the assembly, and that directly the true bearing and character of the assembly comes to light the world-power attacks it. I therefore refer to the apostle Paul, because he was the great vessel in whom that testimony came to light. You will remember that in the detail of his conversion in Acts 26, it is said that a light above the brightness of the sun shone from heaven round about him. There had been light set at Jerusalem, but it is a more wonderful thing to be illuminated from heaven. Now we may say that heavenly light shines about us; the light shone all about Paul; and so when Christ was born the glory of the Lord shone round about the shepherds. It is one thing to have the light about you and it is quite another thing to have it in you.

In Paul there was the reflection of the testimony; he was the witness of it, and so he comes in contact with the beast, of Daniel 7:7. The four gentile monarchies are likened to four beasts in that chapter. Now beasts are made to be taken and destroyed, but God, in wonderful forbearance, bears with these beasts till they commit some overt act against the testimony. In this there is an important principle for us. We are not to interfere with the agents of evil. We know they are there. We know they are ravenous beasts, but we are not to interfere with them. Neither does God interfere with them until they commit some overt act against Him. He allows them, in wondrous patience, to continue their course.

The wicked man described in Daniel 8:23 - 25 who "shall destroy marvellously, and shall prosper, and shall practise", is allowed to pursue his course until he stands up against the Prince of princes and then he is

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"broken without hand". In the future the whole world-power will combine under one head. The beast, the false prophet and the kings of the earth will all be gathered together against the Lord, but only to meet their final doom. The Lord will come out of heaven with His glorious titles; for He has imperial titles. The only one entitled to imperial titles is Christ. He will appear as King of kings and Lord of lords. He will come in imperial and heavenly glory. The beast and the false prophet, the great representatives of worldly power, will be taken and cast alive into the lake of fire. Think of the power the Lord has! Consider the power of the angel who sat at the Lord's tomb in Matthew 28, of whom it is said, "His look was as lightning ... and for fear of him the guards trembled and became as dead men". If all the navies and all the armies of the world were put together, how easily God could smite them with lightning! Now the Lord Jesus Christ controls all that power. If all the powers of the nations were concentrated under one head, what is that in the presence of Christ? The beast and the false prophet will be taken alive and cast into the lake of fire. And then the great adversary, whose titles are given to us in Revelation 20, will be bound; an angel comes down with a chain, and what irony is in that figure, and that great adversary, the Devil and Satan, is chained and cast into the bottomless pit to remain there for a thousand years. Such is the power that is in the hand of Christ, the great Defender of the assembly.

When the 'beast' attacked Paul, he said, "The Lord stood with me". There was not another to stand by him; he said, "All men forsook me". How searching that is! How we recoil from "the lion's mouth"! Paul did not; he says, "Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of

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the lion". The lion was not destroyed, nor is he yet destroyed. Indeed, Paul was afterwards, as it were given to him, and it was Paul's glory to give up his life for Christ, but the Lord did not allow him to be sacrificed to the lion until by him the preaching was fully known. If the preaching is fully known, Paul can depart; he can have the honour of martyrdom. But the power is in the hands of Christ, and the lion's mouth must be closed until the preaching is fully known. Thank God, Paul was retained here until then. The Lord was the great Defender of the testimony and the preaching must be fully known and all the gentiles must hear and then Paul can depart.

Peter said, in writing his second epistle, that he was about to put off his tabernacle, as the Lord had shown him; but this was not until he had finished his testimony. He was not communicating anything new; he wrote to remind the saints of what had been already ministered. He puts off his tabernacle when he has finished his ministry, and not before. And so with Paul; the lion's mouth is stopped, so to speak, till the preaching is fully known, till all the gentiles hear. We are among the gentiles, and thank God, we have heard. But the lion is going to open his mouth again. The great western persecuting power is really continued in the ecclesiastical system that has replaced the empire, and it will reappear in an imperial character and it will attack the testimony, but only to be broken, never again to be revived.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (5)

Matthew 8:1 - 34

J.T. Mention has been made of the references to mountains in this gospel. We noted at the last meeting that in chapter 5 it is said: "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth, he taught them", verses 1, 2. That chapter begins the subject of mountains; although chapter 4 mentions one, but it hardly fits in with the subject, because it is one that the devil used in connection with one of the temptations. Chapter 5, therefore, properly begins the subject of mountains, as we were saying, which would direct our minds to the word in the Psalms that Jerusalem is encompassed with mountains in the sense of protection. "Jerusalem! -- mountains are round about her, and Jehovah is round about his people, from henceforth and for evermore", Psalm 125:2. The teaching on the mountain runs on to the end of chapter 7, where it is said, "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his doctrine, for he taught them as having authority". Then in verse 1 of chapter 8, it says, "And when he had come down from the mountain, great crowds followed him". So that now He has come down from the mountain to the plain; and therefore we have to consider chapter 8 with this in mind. It affords us much instruction as to what happened on the plain, because it refers to the Lord's work, not so much in the sense of teaching, but healing. The subject runs on to the end of chapter 9, where we are told, "And Jesus went round all the cities and the villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness". And then it says further, "But when he saw the crowds he was moved with compassion

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for them, because they were harassed, and cast away as sheep not having a shepherd. Then saith he to his disciples, The harvest is great and the workmen are few; supplicate therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth workmen unto his harvest". So that we have in these two chapters the Lord's immediate work, not so much in teaching, as in preaching and in healing. And the first case is the leper. Then we have, in verse 5, a centurion coming to Him and seeking help for his servant who was paralysed. And then, verse 14: "When Jesus had come to Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law laid down and in a fever". Verse 16 says, "And when the evening was come, they brought to him many possessed by demons". Thus we have one instance after another in the sense of healing.

H.H. Would you say that over against the speaking on the mountain, which would be the principles of the kingdom of the heavens, you now have power, the miracles effected in one and another, showing that the teaching connected with the kingdom is accompanied by power?

J.T. Yes; that is just what I think. First, the mountain, or mountains, for there are six of them engaged in this sense, contemplate the administrative service of the Lord, but the plain would be the meeting of the need in humanity to bring about what corresponds to the teaching.

A.A.T. Is it possible that a saint may be a leper?

J.T. Well, I think so. The subject of leprosy is defined in Leviticus, and clearly the allusion is to persons who have a place amongst God's people. And if one such is a leper, of course, he has to be dealt with as such. That is what is in mind. But I should say that the subject of leprosy in itself refers to sin in its working in unconverted persons. Luke 5 illustrates this, for the man in verse 12, is said to be "full of leprosy", and this

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corresponds with Peter's confession; "I am a sinful man", verse 8.

C.N. There seems to be some faith in this man. He says, "Lord, if thou wilt, thou art able to cleanse me".

J.T. Well, that would show that he would have some knowledge of Christ, because he was aware of His power; "If thou wilt, thou art able to cleanse me". It was a question of His disposition. Therefore, the gospel would meet this situation, for it brings out the disposition of Christ to heal. So it says, "And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, I will", showing His disposition: and then He adds, "Be cleansed. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed". The immediate completeness of the cure is striking.

C.F.E. Why do you think the priest is brought in here?

J.T. I think to make provision for the old economy, seeing that it was not yet abandoned. We were noticing at the last reading that in Matthew the Lord takes up whatever can be used. He says, in chapter 5, "Think not that I am come to make void the law or the prophets; I am not come to make void, but to fulfil". So Matthew would say, Whatever is usable should be used; hence the priest is still usable.

H.H. Would you connect leprosy with state or with guilt, or with both?

J.T. I think it is state, properly, but it is a state in which sin is operative.

H.H. Naaman was an honourable man, "but a leper". It seems to suggest state.

J.T. I would think it is meant to represent the state of man as sinful.

Rem. Before he asked for healing the man did the Lord homage.

J.T. Showing that he reverenced Him, which was a good sign.

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A.R. The Lord is morally as great on the plain as He is on the mountain.

J.T. Quite so, but the power is seen on the plain; the leper assumed that the Lord had power to do what was needed. It was only a question of His disposition to do it, and the Lord "stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, I will". That would be His disposition; so that the power was equivalent to the truth ministered on the mountain.

F.N.W. Would this case be an encouragement to us, as suggesting one who is searched out by the teaching on the mountain, who comes to the Lord and gets right?

J.T. The healing is done immediately. The suggestion is that diseases are not cured by stages; in fact, the Lord in all cases in the gospels has power to do things immediately. It is the immediate power of God in Christ, which is seen in the kingdom.

A.I. What is the Lord's disposition in this way, especially in view of the young?

J.T. Well, the gospel is intended to unfold that; hence great stress is laid on the preaching throughout the gospels and epistles; not simply that the power is there, but also the preaching, to make the teaching effective. The teaching is to be made effective. This involves gift. In the Lord it was perfect.

R.D.G. Does Mark's reference to this incident help as to the Lord's disposition? It says, "And there comes to him a leper, beseeching him, and falling on his knees to him, and saying to him, If thou wilt thou canst cleanse me. But Jesus, moved with compassion, having stretched out his hand, touched him, and says to him, I will, be thou cleansed", Mark 1:40, 41.

J.T. So that it is not only the power but the compassion; hence, we have "the compassions of God" worked out in Romans.

And then the next feature of the Lord's work in this

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chapter is the healing of the paralytic. "And when he had entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to him, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lies paralytic in the house, suffering grievously. And Jesus says to him, I will come and heal him". That is, there is no question of the Lord's will or disposition in the matter; it is already asserted. The Lord said, "I will come and heal him". It is a positive statement. He did not say, 'Try to heal him, but to do it'. "And the centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not fit that thou shouldest enter under my roof; but only speak a word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my bondman, Do this, and he does it. And when Jesus heard it, he wondered, and said to those who followed, Verily, I say unto you, Not even in Israel have I found so great faith", verses 8 - 10. So this brings us to the next great matter; that is to say, faith. It is not said to be in the one that is to be healed, but in the centurion whose servant was to be healed; he had faith, which is a matter to be specially noted if we are to gain by what happens on the plain. The Lord is apprehended by one, as One under authority. The centurion understood the position, that the Lord was here from God, under authority, acting under God; and the centurion said in effect, I am in the same position. That showed that faith was in operation. Thus the truth in this chapter is developed from one subject to another.

A.P.T. This second case involves more than one person. Would there be something in that?

J.T. Well, it shows that if there is any spiritual need amongst us, the exercise need not be confined to the person involved. There is the word, "For each shall bear his own burden", Galatians 6:5; but then at the same time, it says, "Bear one another's burdens", verse 2,

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and that brings in more than one. It might be more than one or two; it might be any number. That is to say, the idea of sympathy in the service is something of very great importance. If a brother or sister is sick, he, or she, has a burden, and it should not be left to him alone. On the other hand, if he is complaining unfairly that the brethren are not looking after him, well, the word is, Let him bear his own burden. He ought to learn to do that.

A.A.T. Is paralysis a definite form of spiritual illness?

J.T. I think it is. As thus affected you are not able to do anything spiritually.

A.R. Some say that they are not free to go about in service on their own account; that they go about amongst the saints on invitation only. Would that be abrogated in this chapter? As being under authority, it is a question of being sent, is it not? The Lord was a Man under authority. Is that right?

J.T. Well, the idea is that christianity is a kingdom or system. It is not simply a matter of isolated servants, but servants in relation to the Lord and to one another. The centurion was related to the imperial military system of Rome, and that, of course, was only an allusion to the Lord's position. He was here in relation to a system, the kingdom of the heavens. Therefore, the saints ought to understand that if there is need for this or that, the system affords what is needed. So that if we are compassionate, we will meet a man according to what his needs may be; and there is authority in it. Hence, the idea of christianity is that the Lord has authority and the saints are all under that authority. That is the point the centurion makes in saying, I am a man under authority. He is transferring the idea to the Lord, understanding His position. The centurion understood His position; that He was a Man under authority, meaning that He was under God.

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C.A.M. You were making a point recently about divine appointment. In that way, this man's very position in those circumstances would be by divine appointment, would you say?

J.T. Quite so; and every one under him did what he wanted to be done. There was no question of, Will you do it? He says, "I say unto this one, Go, and he goes". That is what marks the kingdom of the heavens, and of course, we all want to be available to the Lord, and even to one another, because we are to be subject to one another. Therefore, if there is anything needed, and we have some means of helping, the thing is to do it immediately. It is our business, as it were, since we are in this system, and the system is workable, and if a person is out of joint, as it were, the word is, "Ye who are spiritual restore such a one"; so that he may be in joint and ready for the function that is appointed to him. See note in New Translation on "restore" in Galatians 6:1.

C.F.E. The centurion says, "But only speak a word". Would that be a word for the present moment?

J.T. Well, the centurion knew the position, that all that was needed was that the Lord should say a word; not write, or preach, but "only speak a word, and my servant shall be healed". It is to show how immediate and effective the divine system is.

A.I. It has in mind, too, has it not, the far-reaching effect of the word of God?

J.T. Yes; the Lord graciously said, "I will come and heal him", but the presence of faith and understanding in the centurion is what the Lord stresses.

A.R. Should every servant amongst the saints today work on this same principle of delegated authority?

J.T. Yes; and things are done at once. It is the workableness of the system, I believe, that is to be expressed. And I believe that John's gospel, although it is not just what we are speaking of, shows how love

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enters into it. John's gospel shows how instantaneous love is, how quickly it will act. And Luke's account of this incident shows how love entered into it. His servant was 'dear' to the centurion, and the Jews said, "he loves our nation, and himself has built the synagogue for us".

R.W.S. In many matters now things are protracted; they are not done immediately. Why is that?

J.T. Well, that may mean something in the sense of paralysis. I think that John's gospel would be the great remedy. It is the greatest of the four. It is a question of love.

J.S. "For God has not sent his Son into the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him", John 3:17.

J.T. God loved it. That is the greatest thing that you could say of the world; that God loved it. "God so loved the world".

D.P. The world relies on military power, but here is a case that such power cannot meet.

J.T. Primarily it is a question of the good relations between master and servant; the centurion is the master, and the servant is the paralytic. The relations between them are the opposite of trades unionism.

H.H. A great feature in John is the word 'sent' which occurs some forty times. That would fit with this thought of authority, that the Lord moved under divine commission. And speaking of servants, is it not a question of whether they are going as under authority? The principle is that one is sent. I suppose that is very important.

J.T. Very important; it is not whether he is invited: it is a question of whether he is sent.

A.P.T. The Lord says, "I will come". That involved that He was already under authority.

J.T. Quite so. He was here to meet need. God anointed Him, and He "went through all quarters doing

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good, and healing all that were under the power of the devil, because God was with him", Acts 10:38.

C.N. This paralytic was in the house. "My servant lies paralytic in the house, suffering grievously".

J.T. That would show how love was operative, as we have been saying; that the servant had a place in the house. It was not an outbuilding or a loft. So the fact that the centurion afforded a place in his house for his sick servant would stress the idea that love is operative.

F.S.C. What would you say about his being unfit for the Lord to come into his house?

J.T. It was the sense he had of his own unworthiness. He would be a lowly kind of man. How different from the ordinary soldier! Underneath was the work of God in this man. Luke stresses it more than Matthew.

A.A.T. Was this centurion a Roman?

J.T. Yes. A Roman centurion.

A.A.T. Then he was properly outside of Israel?

J.T. He evidently resided in Capernaum. He was a compassionate sort of man, for he acted the part of a father to his servant. But he was a subject of the work of God. The Lord wondered as to him. He said, "Verily I say unto you. Not even in Israel have I found so great faith", verse 10. Intelligence is seen in the man, that he understood the Lord's position and service. The Lord regards the centurion's faith as the basis of the healing of the paralytic, verse 13.

T.E.H. Would you help us further as to invitation? The great light and truth that we enjoy in this hemisphere lies open to invitation, does it not? The Macedonian said, "Pass over ... and help us".

J.T. The real basis of the service of the kingdom is in being sent. It is a question of authority. The Macedonian case is striking, but it is a call for help, not an invitation. It was a national matter, really a continental matter. It was an appeal for help from Europe. "There was a certain Macedonian man,

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standing and beseeching him, and saying, Pass over into Macedonia and help us", Acts 16:9. It is not properly an invitation; it is an appeal; there is need. The word is, "Pass over ... and help us".

T.E.H. Does their conclusion that the Lord had 'called' the apostle help as to the idea of being sent?

J.T. Just so; Paul concluded that the thing was so, that there was an appeal, a call from Europe, and the idea has run across the continents, to America, and then to Australia.

J.H.P. Is it connected with the thought of many coming from the rising and setting sun and sitting down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

J.T. Well, that comes in here. The Lord says, "But I say unto you, that many shall come from the rising and setting sun, and shall lie down at table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens", verse 11. There is no other kingdom like it. It bears on all humanity; "the rising and setting sun". But "the sons of the kingdom" are those that were merely professedly in it, the Jews, and they "shall be cast out into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth", verse 12.

H.H. Would that be in line with the beginning of this gospel: "Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?" chapter 2: 2. Then the kingdom of the heavens comes in. His kingdom set up already; and then the power of the kingdom of which we are speaking now?

J.T. I would say that, because the magi got into their minds that His kingdom would be extensive. They would consider themselves in it. They had come to worship Him, from a long way, apparently.

F.H.L. Could we apply the operation of faith company-wise, where there is this paralysis? The Lord says, "As thou hast believed". Would that be applicable to such a situation company-wise?

J.T. Well, I think that if we understand the system

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in relation to what is said in Galatians: "Ye who are spiritual restore such a one", it is for each of us to see whether he can do that. If I am spiritual, I will be able to do it. I will be able to restore such a one so that he is able to do his part in the divine system.

J.A.P. Has the Lord given us authority over our own means to relieve the burdens of one and another in that way?

J.T. I would say that; so that you have to look into your bank account and see how much you can do in a given case. Money is plentiful now; this is, referring to the practical side, but it is remarkable the amount of money there is in circulation. The question is whether it becomes the medium of love. If it becomes circulatory as the handmaid of love, then it is of use; otherwise, it will only puff up those who have it.

J.A.P. Would bearing one another's burdens help to release one another from pressures that would hinder us in our souls?

J.T. Yes; and thus fulfil the law of Christ.

D.Macd. While you are discussing the practical side, how far can we go in relation to the matter of healing as seen in the epistle of James?

J.T. Well, it is a question as to whether there is faith. The "prayer of faith" is the point. Someone might say, Well, it is God who does the thing; which of course is admitted. We gladly recognise that God alone can do those things, but the "prayer of faith" is said to do it. The prayer of faith shall heal the sick. It is a question of faith and the prayer of faith.

R.D.G. Would you say, that in referring to the centurion's great faith, the Lord Jesus had in mind not only his confidence but his intelligence?

J.T. I think He did. I think the Lord must have been very pleased with his attitude, speaking reverently, that the man was so intelligent that he could say what he did. It is as if he said to the Lord, 'I know exactly how

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you are situated; that you are here on the part of God, and all you will have to do is to speak a word and my servant shall be healed'. It is an acknowledgment of what the power of God effected in the man. That is the idea of the kingdom of the heavens.

J.S. The officer was looking at the Lord as under supreme authority?

J.T. Well, quite so; the Lord must have felt it keenly and appreciated it keenly. He says "Not even in Israel have I found so great faith".

W.W.M. Would you say that there are two points we might get from the teaching; one would be the idea of intense subjection, which the centurion intimated as to himself; and the other is to strengthen our faith?

J.T. Just so; and then the skill that would go with the intelligence that the man had, because God gives us intelligence as to everything. A christian has intelligence, you might say, in principle by being a christian. He has the Holy Spirit; he knows more than the ancients; he knows more than the scientists, because the Spirit of God gives him knowledge.

H.H. An unction, would you say?

J.T. Just so; "And ye have the unction from the holy one, and ye know all things", 1 John 2:20.

A.I. Why then does it say here that when Jesus heard it, He wondered?

J.T. Well, that is one of the most remarkable things. You are reminded of Abraham's servant (who is a type of the Holy Spirit), when he saw how gracefully and liberally Rebecca gave him to drink and the camels also he was astonished at her, Genesis 24:21.

D.P. Would a man like this be balanced, giving to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God, what is God's?

J.T. Quite so; but he would make far more of God than Caesar.

A.R. Was there a good relationship between Paul and Timothy? He sent Timothy to Corinth.

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J.T. Quite so; Timothy was in the position of a servant to Paul, a peculiar thing. Apollos was not in that position in relation to Paul, but Timotheus and Titus were, showing that in the divine system, there is such a thing as moral superiority in men like Paul and John.

A.R. Apollos had his own mind about going to Corinth.

J.T. He was, so to speak, an independent servant. He was not in the position of Titus and Timotheus. God honoured that. He came from Alexandria, and he has a peculiar place. God brought him into a position where He could manifest this principle of independency in service.

S.M. Do Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob represent what is living?

J.T. I would think so; those that could lie down at table. That is what the Lord says here: "But I say unto you, that many shall come from the rising and setting sun, and shall lie down at table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens".

S.M. Referring again to love, John says, "Jesus, ... having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end", John 13:1. And the Lord said of him, "If I will that he abide until I come", John 21:22. Do you think both thoughts would be supported by love?

J.T. Well, quite so; the Spirit of God has recorded that John was the disciple whom Jesus loved, and surely that ought to fit in with the fact that if the Lord wished to keep John to the end of the dispensation. He was entitled to do it; indeed, we might say that love was entitled to it. "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?" That would be the independency which Apollos had come into. The Lord was independent in that sense: He could use His servant and keep him here until now, if He wished, but He is not doing

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it. John has that peculiar place, and thus his ministry goes through to the end of the dispensation.

H.H. How completely Peter surrendered to Paul in his second epistle! He says, "our beloved brother Paul". What a high level he put Paul's ministry on.

J.T. He called it Scripture. It reminds us of how God names things. Sarah's word to Abraham, "Cast out the maid servant and her son" is called Scripture in Galatians 4:30.

A.A.T. Will you say something about the handling of the fever in the case of Peter's mother-in-law?

J.T. Well, that is a house matter; it is a family matter. "And when Jesus had come to Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law laid down and in a fever; and he touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she arose and served him". This is the first case, I think, of a person who is healed coming into the service immediately: "And she arose and served him". Elsewhere, "she served them". But here, she served Him. She was a mother-in-law, too, and fever causes irritation, and the circumstances would tend to increase it, but nobody asked the Lord to heal her. He did it without being asked. It is very touching, I think, especially that she is related to Peter. It shows how the Lord thinks of those related to His servants.

J.S. Is service in view in the fact that He touched her hand?

J.T. Yes; the hand is often referred to as denoting service. The woman was ready to serve when healed.

W.F.K. It is Peter's house, too, into which the Lord was free to enter.

J.T. Just so.

A.P.T. The healing of Peter's wife's mother seems to be a terminus.

J.T. It says, "And when the evening was come, they brought to him many possessed by demons, and he cast

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out the spirits with a word, and healed all that were ill; so that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities and bore our diseases". Now we have a change-over, for those present were learning from what had happened. "They brought to him many possessed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word"; that is what had happened already; "and healed all that were ill". The next thing is that it is resulting in a prophetic fulfilment; that is to say, things must come into prophetic position, the testimony of the kingdom implies that prophecy had been uttered centuries before, and things must come under the prophetic position; so that we are now living in a prophetic position, whatever it may be, and the thing is to be in accord with it.

H.H. And not go against the signals!

J.S. In that light you would maintain all Scripture.

J.T. Yes, "which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began", Acts 3:21.

A.P.T. Would you say the book of Revelation indicates a prophetic position, and it is a case of whether we may be entering upon some of the things that the Lord had in mind?

J.T. Yes; and I believe that is why so much was made of prophecy in the beginning of the present revival; the point was that the Spirit of God would bring out the prophetic position, and that we must not move out of it. Hence the prominent place prophetic ministry has in Matthew; also in the first epistle to the Corinthians.

C.F.E. What would you say about the verse, "And ... they brought to him ..."?

J.T. It is impersonal; whoever they were, some were doing this. And so it is said, "that that should be fulfilled which was spoken through Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities and bore our

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diseases", verse 17. They were thus in the prophetic position, as we have said.

A.R. Is God working at the present in particular areas?

J.T. Quite so; presently it will go into the millennium. You get frequent references, in this gospel, to the prophetic position; chapter 4: 12, for instance, "But having heard that John was delivered up, he departed into Galilee: and having left Nazareth, he went and dwelt at Capernaum, which is on the sea-side in the borders of Zabulon and Nepthalim, that that might be fulfilled which was spoken through Esaias the prophet"; that is, the Lord moved into Capernaum so that certain prophetic scriptures might be fulfilled.

F.N.W. Is there a difference in the prophetic position as it bears on our times, coming first of all from the Old Testament prophets and the Lord's ministry in the gospels, to that which was established in the ministry of the apostles?

J.T. The principles governing both are the same, I think; and they should be kept in mind. In the beginning of this present revival in Dublin, there were prolonged prophetic meetings, and I believe the whole spiritual map was opened up in those meetings; so that the brethren began to see where they were. All this bears on the present moment.

D.P. Are conditions becoming increasingly difficult? The conditions which the Lord met in this chapter seem to be increasingly difficult. He was met by demons in verse 28.

J.T. Quite so; so that we were trying to follow on in the line of our subject. We have already had the healing of Peter's wife's mother, and then the word of prophecy; "Himself took our infirmities and bore our diseases". Then it goes on, "And Jesus, seeing great crowds around him, commanded to depart to the other side". And a scribe said, "I will follow thee whithersoever

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thou mayest go. And Jesus says to him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the heaven roosting-places; but the Son of man has not where he may lay his head. But another of his disciples said to him, Lord, suffer me first to go away and bury my father". Possibly he may have been waiting for his father's death, having in mind to bury him. "But Jesus said to him, Follow me". That is to say, this is now the governing principle in this prophetic place; it is a question of following the Lord. He has shown that He is worthy of being followed. And so it goes on to say, "And he went on board ship and his disciples followed him", verse 23. They are not directed to do this, but they do it, showing that they are in the principle of the position. Following Him is the principle. And then it says, "And behold, the water became very agitated on the sea, so that the ship was covered by the waves; but he slept". That is something to test us, that He should be sleeping and there should be a storm, whether we are sufficiently in faith to be sure that all is well because He is with us. "And the disciples came and awoke him, saying, Lord save: we perish. And he says to them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith?" We have seen much faith in the centurion, but here, in the disciples, we have but little faith.

But we have to proceed to this most sorrowful matter of the demons: "And there met him, when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gergesenes, two possessed by demons, coming out of the tombs, exceeding dangerous, so that no one was able to pass by that way". Notice that there are two of them! which is something specially to be noticed in Matthew.

A.R. Do they represent a combination standing in the way of divine operations?

J.T. Yes. The numeral two in this gospel may represent good or bad. These two demoniacs, of course, were bad; they were "exceeding dangerous, so that no

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one was able to pass by that way". Well, we have had some experience of that kind, an impassable condition. This subject runs on to the end of the chapter.

A.P.T. It would appear that demons recognise that they must, in their movements, be permitted of the Lord.

J.T. It says in verse 29: "And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Son of God? hast thou come here before the time to torment us? Now there was, a great way off from them, a herd of many swine feeding; and the demons besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, send us away into the herd of swine. And he said to them, Go. And they, going out, departed into the herd of swine; and lo, the whole herd of swine rushed down the steep slope into the sea, and died in the waters. But they that fed them fled, and went away into the city and related everything, and what had happened as to those possessed by demons. And behold, the whole city went out to meet Jesus; and when they saw him, they begged him to go away out of their coasts". It is a most distressing incident, showing utter want of feeling. They asked the Lord to depart out of their coasts! It shows what the testimony requires; how much we have to go through, and suffer, too.

J.A.P. Did Paul contend with this same thing, in principle, in Philippi? There was a woman there who had the spirit of Python. And then, at the close of that chapter they asked him to leave the city.

J.T. The circumstances are similar; but Lydia was at Philippi, one who valued Paul, whose heart the Lord had opened to attend to the things spoken by him. The apostle and those with him went to Lydia before leaving and exhorted the brethren. Thus the testimony obtained a footing at Philippi, but evidently this was not so in the section we are dealing with.

A.A.T. Seven demons went out of Mary Magdalene,

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but is not the idea of demonical possession limited today in the light of christianity?

J.T. I think it is. We have much related as to demon possession in China, for instance. Much cannot be verified but some of it is, and it indicates that there is considerable scope for demon possession. That would mean that China has not accepted the truth of christianity.

F.H.L. In view of verse 18, would you not say that Jesus had deliberately taken up this position to expose the conditions there? He commanded to depart to the other side.

J.T. Quite so; it was His own doing; but still we see what was brought out, and how solemn it is that there may be results from the work of God and yet there may be no sympathy at all with Christ and no desire for the truth. "And when they saw him, they begged him to go away out of their coasts".

W.F.K. What would you say of the testimony, "Son of God", which the demons rendered? They do not say, 'Lord', do they?

J.T. The demons knew. "The demons even believe, and tremble". They do not call him, 'Lord', as you say.

J.H.P. There seems to be more said about the opposition to the Lord than there is of the effect of His work in the two men. In another gospel it is said that the healed one was sitting clothed and in his right mind.

J.T. It is a beautiful result of the gospel. Luke pursues the subject, and he shows the one from whom the demons had gone out sitting, clothed and sensible at the feet of Jesus.

A.R. Is there correspondence to Christ's refusal here in Paul's ministry when he says that he would turn to the gentiles?

J.T. Quite so; "Lo, we turn to the nations", Acts 13:46.

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"HAVE YOUR MIND ON THE THINGS THAT ARE ABOVE"

Colossians 3:2

Where are you looking? Are you looking at the terrible things that are happening down here on the earth? The apostle Paul says, "we look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen". Then he explains, saying, "for the things that are seen are for a time". Everything that your eye rests upon will come to an end. Everything! The things that are seen, whatever they are, are for a time. He makes no qualification. The millennium is a temporal thing. I am not detracting from it. It will be a wonderful testimony to God, showing that He can keep men alive here in flesh and blood as a testimony in spite of Satan's work. But the millennium, is limited, it is only for a time. But what is not seen, the assembly's proper place and portion, is eternal. Are you looking at that?

The day of Pentecost is the beginning of eternity for us. The more you sow to the Spirit, the more you reap what is eternal; the more you look at it the more you are prepared for it. The Spirit, through Paul, engages the heart with what is eternal, so that before we get there we are prepared for it, 2 Corinthians 4:13. In chapter 5 Paul is looking for his 'house from heaven'. If you get a 'house from heaven' you will not be a stranger when you go there; the house is for that place. Paul goes further and says, "he that has wrought us for this very thing is God, who also has given to us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident".

I would appeal to you. I believe that we have come to a crisis. We have arrived at a place where two roads meet, the one leads straight to heaven, and the other leads into the world. It leads gradually, I admit, but it leads there, and it is for you to make up your mind which way you are going to tread. The Lord is bent

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on placing us in possession of the inheritance. The daughters of Zelophehad said, "Give unto us a possession among the brethren". May God grant that that, too, be the desire of every one of us. Not a fine business, nor a status in the world, but an inheritance amongst our brethren, where Christ is the centre and the sun.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (6)

Matthew 10:1 - 42

J.T. According to chapters 8 and 9, the Lord has been doing much. We have an earlier record at the end of chapter 4, but these two chapters bear on it peculiarly, so that there is abundant evidence in them of how the Lord did things, and of the results in certain persons. Now it is thought that chapter 10 affords us instruction as to the special character of divine work as seen in the service of the apostles. They were to do greater works than He, because He would go to the Father, but the chapter indicates how the work is to be done, what is needed in the sense of strength of fibre, and what were the vicissitudes that would have to be entered upon. The closing verses bring in the idea of the reception of the ministers: "He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me. He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward".

The idea of righteousness, which has been noted in chapter 1, is very special in this book and enters into this section. Joseph, the husband of Mary, is especially noted as a righteous man. It is thought that chapter 10 will help us, especially those who serve, in the idea of being received as sent. The word sent covers the whole dispensation, even to a disciple.

J.S. Is that in keeping with the closing verses of the previous chapter, that workmen should be sent forth into the harvest?

J.T. Yes; the Lord had that in His mind. He had been working Himself, but He would associate others

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with Him, and He begins with the apostles so that we might have a true thought of the character of the workmen in the dispensation. The apostles were the leaders, but the matter comes down to a righteous man, and then to giving a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple: "Verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward". So that the thought of reward enters into the whole matter, as well as the idea of being sent.

A.R. Does this chapter show that the Lord has charge of the workmen? He tells them where to go.

J.T. The Lord has charge of the workmen; there must be that idea. It is manifest in the chapter: "And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave them power" -- or authority. The note on verse 1 says, 'More than authority; it includes the right to exercise power. Hence'power'is nearer to it in English: dunamis (power) is the ability to do a thing'.

A.N.W. As so imbued, do they become apostles in verse 2? They are disciples in verse 1, but apostles in verse 2.

J.T. I think it is all to work out the great thought of power in whatsoever way it may be shown. The apostles were pre-eminently examples of power in service, and hence the place they had at the beginning of the dispensation. It is said in Acts 2:42: "And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles". That is, it is a question of apostolic power and authority.

R.W.S. Would this be the Lord's answer to what the Pharisees said in chapter 9: 34? "He casts out the demons through the prince of the demons". The Lord is not retiring; He is going forward in an extended, administrative way in calling the twelve.

J.T. It says, "And the demon having been cast out, the dumb spake. And the crowds were astonished, saying, It has never been seen thus in Israel. But the Pharisees said, He casts out the demons through the

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prince of the demons". There was the testimony that such power had never been seen in Israel.

R.W.S. The power is now not only to be in the Lord, but it is to be in the twelve also.

J.T. To show what the Lord had introduced, because they are to be the leaders, and the first of them mentioned is special: "first ... Peter"; so that we are to pay attention to these men and the order in which they come into the service. Each has his own place and the operations were to be in divine power, not only dynamic power, but power in the official sense; power in the sense of having authority officially. Hence, the position of the saints now is to be made clear, and I think Matthew is intended to make it clear, that it can be accredited. It can be authoritatively said that we are on the line of the Spirit of God. It might be said that we are boastful in saying that, but God intends that there are those who today have authority in a moral sense. It is not exactly in an official sense, but in a moral sense, which in a way is greater than what is merely official.

Ques. Is the position in which they received the power important? "Having called to him his twelve disciples", as though they were already available, but needing to come to Him in this distinctive way.

J.T. Quite so; and that they were His disciples. It is very precious that we belong to Him. But here they are sent out, as belonging to Him, in the capacity of apostleship.

Ques. Is not the starting point of all effective service the presence of the Lord?

J.T. Yes; and hence in this gospel we have, "And behold, I am with you all the days".

Rem. 'All the days' in that passage would entail all the vicissitudes that you have mentioned.

F.S.C. The sphere broadens out at the end of the gospel. Here it is to the lost sheep of Israel.

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J.T. At the end of the gospel it says, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations", whereas in this chapter it is restricted to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I suppose God, in His divine wisdom, selected them in order that He might have the very best quality, which is a feature of the gospel. These men were His, but they were also commissioned to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They had the first place with Him.

E.S.W. Does the thought of the Lord of the harvest dominate the service so that every service is under the Lord's control and it is intended to secure results?

J.T. "Supplicate therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth workmen unto his harvest", chapter 9: 38. That stresses the position as authoritative. The centurion in chapter 8 said to the Lord, "For I also am a man under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my bondman, Do this, and he does it", chapter 8: 9. He understood that the Lord was in that position, and therefore he says, "only speak a word, and my servant shall be healed". It is remarkable that that should come out in a man like the centurion before we have the exercise of that authority in chapter 10.

F.H.L. Would there be other disciples in view in Matthew 9:37, or just the twelve? Many that went back in John 6 are called His disciples.

J.T. When we come to chapter 10 His disciples are specific. They are the twelve. I believe the Lord intends to bring out the idea of selection in service, the fibre the apostles had, and the power they had as given by Him. The whole chapter works out on those lines, but we can all come into it. It is just disciples at the end of the chapter. Giving a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple would show we can all come into the matter of service and giving.

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Ques. Would it be opportune to ask about the dual character of the ministry? "He gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness". Are there two sides of ministry in that; authoritative ministry that has come down to the present time? Unclean spirits are cast out, but diseases and weaknesses are healed.

J.T. There is healing. I suppose the healing of disease and bodily weakness would mean that the persons are secured in their bodies. That idea is prominent throughout the gospels. Whatever is done is done completely. It is wholly done. When we come to the epistles we have the instruction, "If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness", Galatians 6:1. The word restore is to set him up again so that he should function, and I think that is one of the most important things for us in regard of healings and recoveries; that the person is not only numbered amongst us as restored in body, but that he is functioning. The bodily weakness or the disease may be eliminated, but the body remains and is to function. Whether it be a brother, or a sister, each one is to function. The body involves the means whereby the work of God may work out in a functional way so that each one is doing his part.

J.S. As vessels for the testimony?

J.T. Exactly.

C.N. Would an example be seen in Peter's mother-in-law? As soon as the fever was removed she served them.

J.T. We have often noticed that. She serves Him. It says that in this gospel. In Luke it is different; but she serves Him in Matthew. The Lord, in healing her, had gone into the house Himself. He was not asked in.

E.S.W. Does the thought of the harvest mean that in the final result of every service there is to be something for God?

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J.T. Yes.

A.N.W. Does "every disease and every bodily weakness" imply that there is nothing incurable?

J.T. Evidently, even lunacy. It is the only gospel in which we find lunacy, and it is curable. It is a most encouraging thing, too.

A.B.P. Do you think the idea of the Lord of the harvest is seen in Boaz in the book of Ruth? The harvest seems to be a means to an end in view of bringing in the woman, as though the end reached is Christ and the assembly.

J.T. We certainly have both men and women here, and it is surely to work out to one end -- Christ and the assembly.

A.P.T. Peter, in referring to the Lord Jesus, says, "who went through all quarters doing good, and healing all that were under the power of the devil, because God was with him", Acts 10:38. Does that fit in with Matthew?

J.T. That is mentioned in the case of Cornelius, showing that this truth works out among the gentiles. "God was with him". And another thing there is that the Spirit of God came in and operated Himself. It is not simply that He was sent to do it. As Peter preached, the Holy Spirit fell on those who heard. The idea of falling is the same as in Luke 15 where we read of the father falling on the prodigal in fatherly care; so in Acts 10, the Gentiles were secured by the Spirit Himself. I think that is to be noted, because whilst the Spirit is here as sent, He nevertheless operates of Himself and secures persons who are hearing the word.

C.A.M. You have been stressing the matter of the body in this assembly gospel. It is to an assembly setting in Ephesians that the apostle says that He is "Saviour of the body".

J.T. That helps, because the idea of Saviour there is of the believer's body. We can count on the Lord to

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save our bodies; and surely it is in view of augmenting what there may be in that sense, so that the truth should proceed in fulness, that it should not be hindered. As we were saying as to Galatians 6:1, each one is to be set up again if there be anything wrong; he is set up again so as to function in his body.

Rem. The vicissitudes of the testimony require persons who are prepared to lose their lives, according to the end of the chapter. The comforting thought of the Lord being the Saviour of the body would sustain in all that line of exercise.

J.T. I was thinking of that. There may be some question in people's minds as to what the body means in that passage, and I am sure what has been said is true. It is a question of the believer's body as needed in the present provisional setting, that every one of our bodies is needed.

F.N.W. Would you develop the distinction between the sending of the Lord Jesus and the sending of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Well, the Lord is seen firstly as having come; "Lo, I come". He is a divine Person. Of course, the Holy Spirit is, too, but at the same time the Holy Spirit is pleased to take a relatively lower and more subjective way; as Peter says, "The Holy Spirit, sent from heaven", whereas, the Lord Jesus came of Himself, but as come as Man on earth, He is sent. And so He says, "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you", John 20:21.

F.N.W. So that according to Acts 3:20, as being Man, He might be sent from heaven. It says, "And he may send Jesus Christ". Manhood remains.

J.T. Quite so; that is what is going to happen presently. The Lord is to come, and He comes as sent: "The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first", 1 Thessalonians 4:16. As become Man, He is in a position

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of acting in service, and it is a matter to be understood and looked into by all of us, that He primarily comes as a divine Person in His own right. But as come. He is in manhood, because He came that way; He came into manhood; and as come, He is in the place of service. Therefore, when He is spoken of as sent, it is not primary; it refers to when He had taken up the attitude of service. He took it up as Man.

Ques. There is no idea of the Lord's being sent prior to incarnation?

J.T. That is what I thought.

E.S.W. Is the thought of sending in relation to Christ a general thought or is it specific, in relation to particular service?

J.T. It is a question now of whether it is specific. We have already alluded to, "he may send Jesus Christ". The Lord is in the attitude of being sent.

E.S.W. If you transfer that to the sending of the disciples in this chapter, is that to be regarded as a general thought, or would that be specifically said on each particular mission.

J.T. I think the general thought must be there. "Now the names of the twelve apostles are these ... These twelve Jesus sent out when he had charged them, saying, Go not off into the way of the nations, and into a city of Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". I think you can see that as sent they are peculiarly limited here because it is to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but then they could go to any Israelite. Any one of them could go to any Israelite and carry on; that is, there is a certain latitude. Then there is the idea of the Lord Himself sending them at a particular time, as in Acts 16, when the Spirit of God forbad them going to a certain place; and then the vision to Paul, the man of Macedonia saying, "Pass over ... and help us". Paul assuredly gathered from that that the Lord had sent him. I am

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only saying all that because there is the idea of what is specific, and on the other hand there is the idea of what is levitical. What is levitical may be specific or it may not be. It may be the general idea of going, as Paul said, from Jerusalem round about to Illyricum. It is a wide area but he covered it himself: "I ... have fully preached the glad tidings of the Christ". At the same time he would always remember the levitical principles entering into his services and the specific guides to do a certain thing.

E.S.W. It is helpful to get these distinctions made clear. The Levites would always hold themselves available for service and yet wait on their service.

J.T. So that you get in Scripture, "Give ye them to eat", meaning that they should do what is to be done. So the word, "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might", Ecclesiastes 9:10. There is much of that kind of thing that we should understand.

D.P.C. "He has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men", Ephesians 4:8. Is that an extension of the general thought of service?

J.T. Well, it is. When it says He gave gifts to men, it means that He gave gifts as in Manhood. That is a very general thought, because it goes on to tell us what He gave: "some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists and some shepherds and teachers". He gave four kinds of services. It is more general, I would say, but at the same time it is "with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ".

E.S.W. "Thou hast received gifts in Man", Psalm 68:18. I would like to understand that a little better.

J.T. It is just to bring out the position. He ascended far above all the heavens, which I apprehend is an uncreated condition of things which we never get into. We are always in creation, whatever it be, but He entered into an uncreated condition and received gifts

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as Man. He gave gifts unto men, but it is really that He received them, as Man, to give.

C.H.H. The note to that verse in Psalm 68 shows that it is in connection with mankind.

Ques. Is it imperative, for the powerful function of the gifts, for the servants to be in touch with the Lord, from whom they are received? The ability to express a matter is not sufficient. To effect something in the souls of the saints would arise from a powerful link with Christ as Man.

J.T. Quite so; and so the thought that the gifts come out from Christ as in an uncreated region is wonderful, I think.

Rem. So that the power in them is irresistible.

J.T. Quite so; and really, in order to get at the truth of what we are now dealing with, we have to go back to the beginning and see how the thing worked out in the twelve. We can visualise it somewhat in looking back. These men stood up together. "Peter, standing up with the eleven", shows that the levitical position was in mind. These are the ones that are spoken of in our chapter. There they were. Peter alone spoke. They were there and the persons who were converted through the preaching of Peter understood that these eleven men were similar to Peter, and that they could be addressed. They said to Peter and the others, "What shall we do, brethren?" We cannot conceive that these men would not know just what to do without asking the Lord. The Lord would say, You know what these men need. I mean to say, we have to make allowance for what the Lord has made us. He has given us a mind and that mind is the same as His. We ought to be able to tell what we should do in many cases. So He would say, "Give ye them to eat". And so, when the time of appointing deacons came, they prayed about it, but they did the thing. They said to the people, "Look out ... men", showing

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there is a great latitude given to us for carrying on the service of God, so that we should not be literal. He has given us a mind; He has given us power, as it says, He "has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power, and of love, and of wise discretion", 2 Timothy 1:7. Well, He has given us that and we must use it and learn how to use it as brethren and men.

C.H.H. Would that be seen in Philip going to Samaria?

J.T. I think so. He was not sent; he went; and he preached and had great results, too. He was not taken on by the Spirit of God until he had secured certain results. That is another matter.

D.P. I would like to get clear as to what is said, that the Lord was not sent into service from heaven, but as Man here.

J.T. That is true. We cannot find that He was sent from heaven. If anyone says He was sent from heaven he would have to show it from Scripture. The Holy Spirit was sent from heaven, but the Lord was sent as down here. "As the Father sent me forth, I also send you", John 20:21.

G.V.D. Does the scripture in Galatians 4:4 support what you are saying? "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son". The fulness of time does not refer to His coming from heaven, does it?

J.T. No; it was "come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship".

A.P.T. In Acts 15, Paul says, "Let us return now and visit the brethren in every city ... and see how they are getting on". He was in touch with the Lord, and he would go ahead and do the needed thing. He had the Lord's mind about it. Is that the idea?

J.T. Just so, and God was with them in what they were doing, then the brethren committed them to the grace of God, we are told.

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C.N. In verse 5 of our chapter the service is limited to the house of Israel, and then verse 23 says, "Ye shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of man be come". Would you say a word as to that?

J.T. I suppose it would bear on the last days. There are certain things like that in the chapter that have to be looked into at our leisure; for instance, verse 20, "For ye are not the speakers, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you". That contemplates the Holy Spirit here. Well, that is not the general position of the chapter, but it shows that our chapter runs into christianity, and, indeed, it goes past it, because it says, as you say, "Ye shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of man be come". That refers to the coming of the Lord in a public way. That is the introduction of the millennium, of which this very book teaches. It calls it the regeneration; that looks forward to the coming of the millennial condition of things.

C.H.H. Does Peter's ministry carry the thought of the keys of the kingdom? Peter had them.

J.T. Just so. The keys of the kingdom were given to him.

J.T.Jr. This thought of a brother, as seen in the apostles, would not be held as a mere natural link and would not hinder Andrew, for instance, or John, in their service.

J.T. Quite so; that Simon or any of them should seek out his own brother that he might be blessed, is one thing, but to have part in the service on such a basis is another. Some of them here have part in the service, but still they are natural brothers. Of course we should have care for our natural brothers and get them where they can get blessing, but their natural links did not add to them in the service of God.

T.E.H. In the epistles to the Corinthians, the apostle refers to "Sosthenes the brother" and "the brother Timotheus".

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J.T. They were christian brethren, real brethren, in the sense of being christians.

E.A.L. Would you say something about the section from verse 35 on? Natural relations are mentioned, but brother is not included.

J.T. The natural family is in mind. We know from Malachi that when Elijah comes, he will take up this matter. He will "turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers", chapter 4: 6. Verse 34 and what follows contemplates the conditions that the apostles had to meet in their own families; their own brothers and sisters, you might say: "Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man at variance with his father, and the daughter with her mother, and the daughter-in-law with her mother-in-law; and they of his household shall be a man's enemies". That would include his brother too: "Brother shall deliver up brother to death, and father child", verse 21. They of a man's household should be his enemies. The passage shows what we have to contend with in our natural relatives. However amiable they may be in our flesh, when it comes to the testimony they are utterly unreliable. If the Spirit of God is not working in them they are utterly unreliable in the test. That is one of the things that is outstanding in this chapter.

Ques. Is that shown in what is said of Levi in the blessing of Moses in Deuteronomy 33? He was far above the natural link. "Who said to his father and to his mother, I see him not, and he acknowledged not his brethren, and knew not his own children", verse 9. Does that show the levitical link is not to be interfered with at all by the natural link?

J.T. That is right. The allusion is, I suppose, to Moses calling for those who were on the Lord's side. The house of Levi rallied to Moses.

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R.W.S. With John Mark and Barnabas it worked out in the reverse. It was a hindrance there, was it not?

J.T. John Mark went back because he was influenced by nature. He went back from the work. One of the things that is mentioned in this chapter is that we may have to suffer from natural relatives.

Ques. Does not the first verse of the next chapter show that the whole of this chapter is of a piece? "And it came to pass when Jesus had finished commanding his twelve disciples ..." Does that not cover the whole chapter? It is an indication of the vicissitudes of the testimony.

J.T. Yes. We do well to face it. I doubt whether we will ever rightly go through Matthew unless we face this chapter. This is the great fibre chapter in the book; what we have to contend with if we are to be in the testimony.

C.N. Verse 26 says, "Fear them not therefore". These terrible conditions are not to be feared.

J.T. "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more those of his household? Fear them not therefore". It is a word we have many a time had before us here; not to be in fear of the enemy's efforts against the truth. Conditions in the world today portend a possible upheaval at any time and we are to be ready for the worst possible circumstances, and this chapter is to make us ready for them.

J.A.P. That scripture which you quoted from Timothy, that we have not been given a spirit of cowardice but of power, love and wise discretion, seems to cover this whole chapter.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. It is not all platform work.

J.T. Many of us know something of the danger of making too much of that.

W.F.K. The disciples were restricted from going to

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Samaria and the nations. Are there places today where the servant should not go?

J.T. There is that idea, only this chapter would hardly fit that because the restriction is to the nations. There is what we have already remarked as to levitical principles entering into the service of God, as seen in Acts 16:6, 7, where Paul is forbidden to go to certain places.

R.W.S. How do you view the instruction in verse 23?

J.T. "But when they persecute you in this city, flee to the other; for verily I say to you, Ye shall not have completed the cities of Israel until the Son of man be come". It must refer to the coming of the Lord, the pre-millennial coming of the Son of man.

R.W.S. There must then be a lot to do and not much time to do it, and before it is done the Lord comes. I thought the word would reflect on us as to energy.

J.T. I am sure that is true.

E.S.W. Would you say a little as to the inquiry as to who is worthy in the city or village or house? They are to make inquiry as to who is worthy, verses 11 to 13.

J.T. "But into whatsoever city or village ye enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there remain till ye go forth. And as ye enter into a house salute it. And if the house indeed be worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you". I suppose it would mean that the work of God is going on generally or the testimony from heaven would never be effective at all. I believe the idea of worthiness is some quality in the person which is due to the work of God. It is not natural.

E.S.W. So that you would link yourself on with the work of God that is in the place as Paul did at Philippi?

J.T. Quite so. I believe we are safe in going to Paul to get all these things illustrated.

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J.S. Verse 14 says, "Go forth out of that house or city". In verse 1 of the next chapter, it says, "he departed thence to teach and preach in their cities".

J.T. Yes; but He did not do that until He sent out these men. He had them by Him. There were none like them on earth. Under the Lord, the apostles were the great inaugurators of the dispensation as the Holy Spirit came down, and here they are made suitable in the fibre of their instruction and character generally for it. So that they were ready to go into death at any time, even wishing for martyrdom for the sake of the Lord. We need to look into our hearts and see if we have anything like that in us, ready to die for the Lord. Paul said that he was ready to die. He did not deprecate dying; he was ready for it.

Ques. Would verse 25 be a comfort? "It is sufficient for the disciple that he should become as his teacher, and the bondman as his lord". Is correspondence to Christ introduced in all these exercises?

J.T. Quite so; you have the standard in the Master, and it is sufficient for you to be like that.

Rem. So that if any sorrows are experienced, the Lord endured them first-hand Himself.

J.T. You are content to be as He is. "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me ... for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light", Matthew 11:28 - 30.

Rem. So that Moses, set with such an arduous task, was told by the Lord, "My presence shall go and I will give thee rest". Would that not occur to him as all the matters arose in his service?

J.T. Quite so. "My presence shall go", what a comfort that is!

A.R. Taking up the cross in verse 38 is taking up your own cross?

J.T. Yes. "And he who does not take up his cross

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and follow after me is not worthy of me", verse 38. It is something of your own.

J.T.Jr. That would not hinder one in his service; it rather would help him.

J.T. That is what the apostle says: "Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me;" 2 Corinthians 12:9.

D.P.C. Is that what he means when he says, "Take thy share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ"?

J.T. I would say that. There is plenty of suffering. It was a question for Timothy to take his share, and this comes home to each of us. Paul says, "I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly", Colossians 1:24.

A.R. It would be like the Lord Jesus Himself; He carried His own cross.

J.T. Yes; it is a question of what you have, or what I have, what the Lord sees fit to give as a matter of suffering. Take it up and do not avoid it. The Lord says as to Paul, "I will show to him how much he must suffer for my name", Acts 9:16.

A.B.P. In that way, is pressure intended to afford opportunity for fresh assertion of purpose of heart?

J.T. Just so; especially when you think of what Christ has in the assembly; to "fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ in my flesh, for his body, which is the assembly".

A.P.T. The twelve are called the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

J.T. Just so; He was the Sufferer.

Ques. Losing your life, according to verse 39, is not confined to actual martyrdom, would you say?

J.T. No; many a man might endure literal martyrdom, but he may not stand a life of suffering of another kind. The latter tests your patience. I am sure the most testing thing is extended suffering when you have to exercise patience in it.

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Ques. Is that what Paul meant when he said, "Bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus"?

J.T. No doubt; "that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh".

C.H.H. Would you say that not only is the Lord Jesus Christ represented in the service here, but the Father also; "the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you".

J.T. I was thinking of that; it is one of the outstanding things in the chapter, and it must run into the period of the gift of the Spirit. Most of the chapter does not allude to the time of the Spirit, but this does.

A.B.P. Is there any inference that those who serve after the assembly is taken will be indwelt?

J.T. I do not think so. The assembly has a place that no others have, and the Lord is particular about that. He is particular about the assembly; its dignity must be maintained, and it must not be brought down to the level of common things. "Let not the assembly be charged". It is a question of dignity and the Lord would put it upon us to see to it that it is not degraded.

J.S. Would that dignity be maintained in verse 40? "He that receives you receives me".

J.T. Yes.

A.B.P. Verse 20, then, would show that during the present dispensation this same character of testimony is to be maintained.

J.T. Throughout, from the first minute of it to the last minute of it. It is the period of the Spirit. The Lord is concerned as to the dignity of this period, that it should not be allowed to drop down to the level of common things.

A.P.T. So the Lord says, "And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only, in the name of a disciple". That is dignity is it not?

J.T. Quite so; and it is in the name of a disciple.

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F.N.W. What is involved in the name of a disciple?

J.T. It shows what God has placed down here in the sense of dignity and representation.

E.S.W. Does it mean that on our side we should recognise the dignity that God has placed upon the prophet and the disciple?

J.T. Quite so. And yet, he would be just a disciple, in the sense of being among the Lord's followers, as a learner. Discipleship implies that you are learning from him, as Mary said, "Rabboni, which means Teacher". He was her Teacher. She was truly a learner. That is the idea in John's gospel, that you have no official titles; what is said in this sense is more what you are morally.

S.W. "He that receives you receives me". Would that not only indicate the servant's ministry, but the servant himself? I was thinking of Lydia having received Paul's ministry, and then she could receive him into her house.

J.T. And when he was leaving he came to her. It is a great matter for a sister to acquire a place among the brethren herself. It is first her house: "Come into my house"; but when Paul was leaving, he came to her; Acts 16:40.

J.H.E. Speaking of dignity, the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. What a testimony that must have been!

J.T. The point there is that Christianity was set out in Paul and Barnabas in their great labours there for a whole year. The Spirit of God takes account of a period of time in the ministry of two brothers, and the result of it is: "The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch". That was the fruit of their work.

E.S.W. I would like to get a little clearer understanding of receiving "a prophet in the name of a prophet". Does it imply that there is great gain in recognising the prophet when he speaks, that he is a prophet?

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J.T. Quite so, that is one of the important things that have been stressed in our times, the idea of prophetic meetings, prophetic ministry.

E.S.W. We sometimes pass it by as a word of not very great importance, but the spiritual person would recognise that it was a prophetic utterance.

J.T. He gave some apostles and some prophets. These were gifts given.

E.S.W. He has acquired that name, having been given it by God?

J.T. Yes. Much is made of the prophets in the Scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament, and as referred to in this way, they would be known men of prophetic power. Women were known also as persons who prophesied.

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CONSIDERATION FOR CHRIST

2 Samuel 6:17, 18; 2 Samuel 7:1 - 19; John 12:1 - 8

I have read these two well-known scriptures as setting forth the spirit of consideration for Christ. Christ has considered for us; that comes before us in the breaking of bread. There are various lights in which the Lord regarded His holy body. It was divinely prepared for Him, "a body hast thou prepared me", and He says, "Lo, I come to do thy will, O God". The Lord Jesus took account of His holy body in that light. In His holy body here He treasured in His heart the will of God. At Gethsemane His resolution came into clear light -- He was here absolutely for the Father's will and nothing could swerve the Lord from His purpose. On the other hand, His body was devoted to the saints. The night on which the Supper was instituted was perhaps the brightest of all spent by the Lord in His sojourn here, for it was a love feast. The night of the Supper was the night when the Lord let out His heart freely to His own. On that occasion He said to the saints, "This is my body which is for you"; it was devoted to the saints. Out of that scene of light Judas went; he left that scene of light for the darkness. "He went out ... and it was night". The light, thank God, remains for us; the light of that wondrous fact that the Lord has devoted His body to the saints. That is what Christ is for us.

What is the institution of the Supper, but a continual reminder of His consideration for us! He instituted a love feast. Jude speaks of spots in your love feasts. There was a spot on the first occasion of the Supper, that was Judas; he was a thief; he was covetous. Wherever self finds a lurking place in our hearts there is a spot, and we have to see to it that the spots are removed. Out of consideration for us, and in view of all that, the Lord Jesus devoted His body for us; He

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laid it down in death. Judas went out; and then there was a scene of unsullied light. There is no spot in Jesus. It is said there are spots in the sun, but there are no spots in Jesus, our Sun! The Lord has it before Him to present the assembly to Himself a glorious assembly having no spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. It comes about by His gracious ministry to the assembly; she becomes a complete reflection of Himself.

The great point of the moment is what place the Lord has with us. Of all the men of the Old Testament, David sets forth the spirit of consideration for Christ. He would not give sleep to his eyes nor slumber to his eyelids, until he found out a place for the Lord, a habitation for the mighty God of Jacob, Psalm 132:1 - 4. The first thing was that he heard of the Ark. Have you heard of the Ark? The next thing he says is, "we found it". It is one thing to hear of the Lord, another thing to find Him. Have you found Him? David alludes to the fact that in all the days of Saul the Ark had never been inquired at; 1 Chronicles 13:3. David had heard of it when he followed the sheep, and he made a resolution there. I believe in making resolutions. If you make up your mind to go after Christ, that He shall have His place in your heart, you will reach Him. In David's expression of his desire, he had little idea of what sufferings he would have to endure before it was accomplished. But God gives power to carry out such a resolution.

Now I wish to speak a little about the house of Saul. Saul represents a state among the Lord's people; he was divinely appointed and anointed, and at one time he did the work of God, but he never inquired at the Ark all his days; and when the man appears who cherished it, Saul persecuted him. David was hunted like a partridge on the mountains because he considered for the Ark. David was despised in his father's house. Why? Because the spirit of Christ was in him, and

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God honoured him. If you love Jesus, you will be distinguished by God, but Saul will persecute you. When David's affections shone at their brightest, Michal, the representative of the house of Saul despised him, 2 Samuel 6:16. She could not take away his delight in God and the Ark, but she despised him. Thank God she could do no more, but she did that; her father could have done much more, but she despised him; and in her that spirit became extinct, she had no issue, 2 Samuel 6:23. David danced before the Ark with all his might. What an expression of delight! He brought it to Jerusalem, to the place prepared for it. The house of Saul becomes extinct in Michal, but the house of David continues for ever. David says to God, "thou hast spoken also of thy servant's house for a great while to come", 2 Samuel 7:19.

David was dwelling in a house of cedar. We may thank God for earthly comforts; but David in his house of cedar thought of the Lord. While enjoying God's mercies, are we considering for God, considering for Christ? David thought of Him, and God took account of his desire and He sent Nathan to speak to him, to convey His mind to him. Where are our hearts in regard to God and Christ? In Psalm 19, it is said that, "The heavens declare the glory of God", and, that "In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun". Do you ever ponder the esteem in which Christ is held in heaven? David saw the tabernacle in the heavens and he thought he would have one for the Ark down here.

In John 12 we see how the family at Bethany considered for Christ; "There they made him a supper". We can make a place for Christ here; that is the line that consideration for Christ takes. What kind of place will suit Him? Where can you make a place for Him? There is no place where Jesus can dwell on earth save in the hearts of His saints. He dwells in love. Martha

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and Mary and Lazarus were relieved of the pressure of death, and they considered for Christ. There are two things by which we are held: there is the attraction of the world, and John 4 meets that: the Lord gives the Spirit as living water, and the Spirit takes hold of the affections and directs them in new channels. The other great pressure is death and John 5 meets that. As released, what are we going to do? Consider for Christ! In John 12 Mary went beyond the others; she considered for Him in view of His death. It is a moment which calls for consideration for Christ. Paul says to the Philippians, "All seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's". May we be found considering for Christ!

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (7)

Matthew 11:25 - 30; Matthew 12:46 - 50; Matthew 13:1 - 3, 51, 52

J.T. So as to make clear the links which are in mind in the chapter, we may look first at the beginning of chapter 11. It says, "And it came to pass when Jesus had finished commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and preach in their cities". The Lord, according to chapter 10, has appointed His twelve disciples. He named them apostles showing that their position was authoritative. Then, in chapter 11 the Lord Himself resumes His teaching. So that, as we have noted, it says, "when Jesus had finished commanding his twelve disciples". Such finishing thoughts are characteristic of Matthew and are important as pointing out certain sections of the book, and particularly here as relating to apostolic service. The instruction was finished. After that we have the allusion to John's mission, which, alas, is discreditable to John. He sent his disciples to ask the Lord, "Art thou the coming one? or are we to wait for another?" verse 3. The principle of finishing matters is important to bear in mind in the instruction, and it is clear that this was needed in John's case.

A.I. Chapter 11 speaks of the Lord teaching and preaching in various cities. There were many who turned away from his teaching, but is it not important that it brought to light those who were ready for it?

J.T. Well, it is. And it has to be admitted that John was not ready, although he had served well. But he was imprisoned and evidently disheartened. So he raised the question of another. The Lord afforded no such suggestion in His ministry. He had made it plain that He was the One. Chapter 1 shows that He was the Christ. John had been taught immediately that it became him to fulfil all righteousness. But still John failed here, which is surely something for us to bear in mind

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lest we should fail of a finish in our instruction.

W.F.K. John said, "He must increase, but I must decrease", he evidently did not continue thus.

J.T. He did not maintain it. That is in John's gospel. That gospel does not afford all the instruction about John, but Matthew gives us this side of the instruction; and undoubtedly it is intended to bear on the assembly and those who minister in it; that there is the idea of commandment and finish. The twelve were there and the Lord had finished His instruction in regard to them.

A.R. Does the answer help? The Lord says to them, "Go, report to John what ye hear and see. Blind men see and lame walk; lepers are cleansed, and deaf hear; and dead are raised, and poor have glad tidings preached to them". Is that the idea of helping John to a finish?

J.T. Just so. The Lord calls attention to the facts of His ministry; that the ministry was resultant; that it yielded something definite. And then there is the added thought: "And blessed is whosoever shall not be offended in me".

R.W.S. In chapter 7: 28 the words are finished. It says, "It came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words". In the section read in chapter 11 He finished commanding, and in chapter 13: 53 it says, "When Jesus had finished these parables". Is there some progress in the manner of what is finished as we move into the realm of the assembly?

J.T. I think that is good. Chapter 13: 53 says, "When Jesus had finished these parables he withdrew thence". There is the idea of finish in the ministry which we all should learn in pursuing the truth. And there can be no doubt that we have now arrived, in the history of the assembly, at the time of the finish. What the Lord is aiming at undoubtedly is the finished product; that the result of His ministry should go up

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to heaven, not unfinished, but finished -- fit to be there.

E.A.L. What do you think of John's question, "Art thou the coming one? or are we to wait for another?" Why should he ask One about whom he had no doubt, whether He was the coming One?

J.T. I would say that he failed, but in all fairness to him and which indeed the Lord, too, intimates, he was affected by the persecution. If the Lord were the Christ, as chapter 1 said, why should John, His forerunner, be in prison? I suppose that was the difficulty with John and, of course, it is not written to discredit John, but rather that we should be ready for the idea of completion, and not fail. As it says, "He that has endured to the end, he shall be saved", chapter 24: 13. The end is the thing that tells the tale of the ministry. The Lord is surely not at fault in the ministry. The fault is in those who are being ministered to, whether we are enduring to the end, because it is a time of endurance.

A.R. You have said that the finished product would be seen in Colossians: "... that we may present every man perfect in Christ", chapter 1: 28. Is that the idea?

J.T. Paul had that in his mind in ministry. I suppose we might say the law made nothing perfect and perhaps John's failure here would be to confirm that. Although Paul had failure, too, he finished his course. He continued to the end.

D.P. Was John a subject of the Lord's teaching, or does he have a separate ministry?

J.T. He has a separate ministry; though he is the Lord's forerunner, yet he has a separate ministry, but the Lord associates him with Himself: "Thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness". There is no suggestion of any incompleteness in the ministry of righteousness in which the Lord had part.

E.T.P. Paul says to the Philippian saints, "Having confidence of this very thing, that he who has begun

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in you a good work will complete it unto Jesus Christ's day: as it is righteous for me to think this as to you all", Philippians 1:6, 7.

J.T. Quite so; but a feature of Colossians is the completion of the word of God.

R.W.S. At the last reading you suggested that chapter 10 brings out moral fibre. Is it in view of comfort that the Lord is with us all the days? Otherwise, we would scarcely get through the rugged conditions which Matthew contemplates.

J.T. Quite so; so the idea of continuance is in the appointment of the apostles; although, as the Lord Himself says, "not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled", John 17:12. But the apostles stood their ground in the testimony and they added one, also. There is no indication that the apostles gave way in any characteristic feature; therefore, they are seen in the heavenly city at the end, their names are there.

V.C.L. Would the excellence of the ministry of John and Peter in their closing letters show that they were in this teaching of the Lord?

J.T. Yes, especially in the link with Paul. See how Peter commends him. Although Paul had rebuked Peter earlier, yet Peter is maintained in true brotherly feelings. We have been speaking of the idea: "If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness", Galatians 6:1. The word 'restore' as used there refers to the person being set up in completeness after his failure. I believe it is important to keep that in mind as to links with the ministry, that failure should not destroy them. In the apostles it is what the Lord set up. It did not fail; it stood its ground to the end, and is seen in the heavenly city.

A.I. Is not the present ministry in line with the Lord's service as aiming at completion?

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J.T. That is just what has been said. The Lord is aiming at the finished product, because it is intended to be fitted for heaven. The Lord comes for it and takes it up there.

E.S.W. Have you in mind that there are stages in our assembly instructions, and one stage is to be completed before we are to move on to the next?

J.T. I believe that is seen in the structure of the gospel of Matthew as we have observed. But at the same time there is the idea of growth, which is uniform.

A.R. Things are being done. According to what the Lord said, John was to get from the disciples the word that things were being done.

J.T. Exactly. They were to tell John what was being done. They were being done well. It was not a partial matter. Things were done completely.

F.H.L. The Lord refers to the period "from the days of John the baptist until now, the kingdom of the heavens is taken by violence", verse 12. Would that be a definite period?

J.T. I suppose so; "from the days of John the baptist". That would be that John the baptist is honoured in his ministry. He is regarded as coming down from the Old Testament. He belongs to that order, and he was doing well, but now he is in prison and limited, and of course we have to admit that any of us is liable to give way in suffering or in persecution. The Lord would strengthen us so that it should not be so at the end of the dispensation.

Now when we come to the end of chapter 11, we see that there is no danger of failure on the part of the Lord; not the slightest suggestion or possibility of failure with Him. He had been rejected by those He had ministered to, but instead of being dejected Himself -- God forbid the thought that He ever was -- He "rejoiced in spirit", according to Luke 10, in the time of His rejection, and turned to the Father saying, "I

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praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them to babes". Matthew 11:25. That is the Father's will, the Father and the Son enter into a conversation with each other, as it were, in view of the babes; and the work is complete as far as it went. The babe condition was there, but the babes were being ministered to; they were not simply babes. They were being ministered to, and the Lord adds further, "Come to me".

A.B.P. Would you say that John was engaged with the circumstances which were unfavourable, whereas the Lord had a dispensational outlook?

J.T. Yes. He had the whole dispensation in mind, undoubtedly. The conversation was, as it were, between the Father and the Son without formally being indicated. But it was a conversation, for the Spirit says, "Jesus answering said". We can only conclude that the answer was to His Father and it was in relation to the beginning of the work; that is, the babe condition which would culminate in a perfect result.

J.S. John the baptist did not accept Christ's rejection, but the Lord, although rejected, triumphs over the rejection.

J.T. He is unchanged by the opposition to Him, by the refusal of His testimony and of His work.

A.R. The Lord said that a little one in the kingdom is greater than John the baptist.

J.T. Showing that John belonged to another dispensation which made nothing perfect; and yet, according to the Lord's word, he is the greatest of those born of women; but these babes that are coming into evidence to make up the new order of things, are greater than John the baptist.

J.S. Does that indicate the Lord is beginning anew?

J.T. I think so. It is babes; but clearly it is babes

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of quality; that is, such as can be used in the beginning of a dispensation.

S.McC. Why does the Lord use the title here, "Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth"?

J.T. I suppose it is in keeping with the beginning of things. The heaven and the earth involve the physical sphere of the testimony; therefore, it directs us back to Genesis 1 where it is said that the earth had been submerged, but is taken out of the water, so to speak. It is brought into being as an order of things in which God operates. Life, the power of fructification, is in the earth and it was needed for the new order of things which God intended to bring about. It will be needed in the millennial day, too, but there will also be new heavens and a new earth, eventually. The Lord is intimating that the present heavens and the present earth are the sphere of the testimony of christianity; and this is also true as to the millennial world.

E.S.W. There is found, at this point, a Man on earth who is able to completely answer to the Father in heaven.

J.T. That is what is thrown into prominence in the Lord's own attitude, because it says in verse 25, "At that time, Jesus answering said, I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes". The heaven and the earth composed the sphere, according to Genesis 1, in which the testimony should take form and be carried on right through the millennial day, as we have said.

J.S. These are the operational spheres.

J.T. Exactly.

F.H.L. In Psalm 8 it says, "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou established praise", verse 2. Is there a link with the babes here?

J.T. Quite so.

A.B.P. Is there a similarity in the Lord's circumstances

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here and those of the apostle in 2 Corinthians 4? It is a pressure chapter, and he also refers back to the beginning: "Because it is the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts", verse 6.

J.T. Very good; showing that the operational sphere was in the heart of the apostle, and, we may say, in the hearts of the saints. It reminds us too, I think, of Samuel's ministry; that none of his words fell to the ground, as being wasted. The operational sphere involves the ground where the seed germinates. The good soil is the hearts of the saints. Samuel's words were not lost. They fell into the hearts of the saints.

S.McC. Is the thought that as coming to the new order of things, the great and extended operations which come into view would be involved in relation to the assembly?

J.T. I would think so. The babes point to the material that would be used in the operations. In chapter 12, it says, "At that time Jesus went on the sabbath through the cornfields; and his disciples were hungry, and began to pluck the ears and to eat. But the Pharisees, seeing it, said to him, Behold, thy disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on sabbath. But he said to them, Have ye not read what David did when he was hungry, and they that were with him? How he entered into the house of God, and ate the shewbread, which it was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those with him, but for the priests only", verses 1 - 4. And then in verse 9 it says, "And, going away from thence, he came into their synagogue. And behold, there was a man having his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath? that they might accuse him. But he said to them, What man shall there be of you who has one sheep ...". leading up to the healing of the withered hand. And then again, verse 25: "But he, knowing their thoughts,

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said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation". And in verse 28, it says, "If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then indeed the kingdom of God is come upon you". All this is to be emphasised because it leads up to the importance of what is here, as the Lord says, "behold, more than Solomon is here". I am coming now to the idea of what is greater than persons. It is a kingdom that is coming that is in mind and it is greater than Solomon. It is the greatness of the kingdom; that is, the sphere of operations. It is a kingdom and it is greater than Solomon or Jonas, so that we are in the operational realm of the Christ, in view of the assembly, where you have that which subsists in this character: what is greater than the persons mentioned.

J.T.Jr. Would David eating the shewbread show he was ahead of his own dispensation and really, you might say, in line with our own? He entered into the house of God and ate the shewbread. He had the liberty to do that.

J.T. Yes; the Lord was on that line, and what I especially have in mind in chapter 12 is to bring out that there was that which was here; not simply persons; not simply that He is greater, which, of course, is true, but there is what is greater. It is a question of a realm of things; a system of things into which the Lord would carry all these operations in view of the assembly, which comes in in the closing verses that have been read.

J.T.Jr. Does that develop from the babes? We have the Father's pleasure in the Lord, personally, at His baptism and also here; but the Lord brings the babes in here. Does that show that what God can operate in is beginning to take form in this order of things?

J.T. The idea here is what is greater than Solomon. That it is not now a question of babes but a system of things, formed of men, of course; but still, not the persons so much as the things, the system which would be needed to bring about the assembly.

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A.R. It says in verse 6, "But I say unto you, that there is here what is greater than the temple". Did you have that verse in mind also?

J.T. I intended to refer to that verse, too. Chapter 11 treats of the Persons of the Deity, the Father and the Son, but in chapter 12 it is a question of a system of things. Of course, the persons forming the structure are there in the disciples viewed as the apostles, in chapter 10, but the system is alluded to over and over again right down until we come to the verses which treat of the material for the assembly, those who do the will of God, as seen at the end of the chapter.

T.N.W. Does not the system include the Spirit's presence here?

J.T. It does.

S.McC. Ephesians 4 alludes to the stable and fixed system of things and three concentric circles are referred to. In the last, it is said, "One God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all", verse 6. Would the 'in us all' link in some way with what we are saying now?

J.T. Yes; there are three concentric circles, beginning with the body, then the kingdom, and then the Father's operations, all working out the same thing. That is to say, it is systematic thing; the Father over all, through all, and in us all; which would mean that it works out in us; not in babes, but in full grown men. That is the point in Ephesians 4we are viewed as full grown men, no longer babes.

T.E.H. Who would be included in the invitation: "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me".

J.T. Well, the persons described, those who labour and are burdened. We have been speaking of the babes, but now we have to view them in another sense, that they are burdened. They are individuals having responsibility,

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and the Lord is saying that He is the Centre for them. Although He has been rejected, He is presented to Israel. He is the Centre for all who are labouring and are heavily laden. "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me". He is the Centre of burden-bearing, but He also is the Teacher by example -- 'learn from me'.

W.W.M. That would offset the failure of John the Baptist.

J.T. Quite so; I think the conversation between the Father and the Son, leading up to chapter 12 is to bring out the quality of things; the quality in the system is mature; it is not a babe condition; it is a mature condition, only it is to be worked out in a family relation, which is involved in the verses read in chapter 12.

W.F.K. The Lord speaks of hiding from the wise and prudent. Is there anything hidden today?

J.T. Well, there is a judicial hiding, I would think. "Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent"; that is to say, it is judicial. God is hiding things from men who are assuming to know; He is teaching the babes.

R.W.S. Chapter 12: 28 says, "If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then indeed the kingdom of God is come upon you". Would that, as regards the saints, be the protective side of the kingdom to shield them from all that is pharisaical, and would verses 48 to the end bring in the inside where there is joy in the family link?

J.T. Verse 28 alludes to the great fact of the Lord's presence among the people. This would lead up to the closing verses read, because they lead up to the assembly; that is, the character of those who form it, those who do the will of God. "But while he was yet speaking to the crowds, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, seeking to speak to him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren are standing

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without, seeking to speak to thee. But he answering said to him that spoke to him, Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" verses 46 - 48. We can say now that the change is formally asserted, that it is a question of the will of God, "And, stretching out his hand to his disciples, he said, Behold, my mother and my brethren; for whosoever shall do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother", verses 49, 50. It is a family matter; not a family of babes, but a family of mature persons; those who do the will of the Father.

V.C.L. The family idea is extended in connection with the Father's will, but would the yoke idea in chapter 11 be a special expression of love to those who are in the service, and thus under burden?

J.T. I suppose the yoke associates Him with us. The Lord has that in His mind when He said to John the baptist, "Thus it becometh us"; and to Peter, in chapter 17: 27: "Give it to them for me and thee". "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light". His burden would be whatever the Father put on Him. It was not burdensome or irksome to Him. It was joyous, and it indicates what service really implies in the new system, in christianity.

R.H.S. Is the sabbath, which was a sign between God and His people, set aside here in view of the liberty of family relations?

J.T. Yes; the Lord went through the cornfields, meaning He was not under Jewish legal requirements. He was not afraid of doing things on the sabbath. He went through the cornfields. The disciples not only went through the cornfields, but it says that they began to pluck the ears and to eat. That is to say, they were in liberty; all this is making way for that which belongs to christianity.

A.R. Does Matthew have sons in mind? The Lord says, "whosoever shall do the will of my Father", in this

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gospel, chapter 12: 50, but in Mark it is the will of God.

J.T. He has sons in mind. The Lord says, in chapter 17, "Then are the sons free" and He associates Himself with Peter in that freedom. Therefore it is the liberty wherewith Christ sets them free.

T.E.H. Is that the kind of liberty that would be experienced in 2 Corinthians 6, in contrast to being yoked together diversely with unbelievers? Then God says, "I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters", verse 18. Is that the idea of the relationship enjoyed in liberty?

J.T. Just so. The Father there is Jehovah Almighty. The power that is there to support us in the liberty implied is Jehovah Almighty; and that liberty involves that we should not have mixed marriages or commit ourselves to unholy alliances of any kind.

J.T.Jr. The Lord would defend what the disciples did as right. They plucked the ears and ate. And then in verse 49 He stretches out His hand and points out His disciples as if He is calling attention to what is here.

J.T. And then in verse 12 He refers to the value of a man as compared with a sheep. The idea of man is seen in the chapter, which ultimately will be seen in sonship. Manhood in Matthew's gospel is seen in sons; the sons are free.

F.N.W. Why does the Lord say, "The will of my Father who is in the heavens", in the end of chapter 12? In the sermon on the mount He says, "Your Father".

J.T. Chapters 5 to 7 refer to the mount which we have called the mount of legislation. There are seven mountains in this gospel, as we have noted. I suppose the Lord would liberate His people before He appoints the twelve. He sets them up in liberty, but in the sense of doing what is right. He sets them up. He goes up to the mountain and they go with Him, and there He legislates. He formulates law and sets them up in the law which He formulates; not which was, although He

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would say in that section that whatever was formulated by Moses must not be discarded, there is something in it. Whatever was written aforetime was written for our learning; only there was something strongly additional: "I say unto you". This gives the idea of the mount of legislation. So that the persons there are said to be blessed. There are nine classes of blessed persons in the beginning of chapter 5, and at the end of that chapter the disciples are exhorted to be perfect as their Father is perfect; not there His Father but their Father. That is, they are in principle, in liberty. It is not simply Jehovah, but the Father and those that the Lord would teach are to be like their Father who is in the heavens.

A.R. He says here, "Have ye understood all these things?" One often wonders whether we understand the idea of sonship.

J.T. Well, that is the next thing to come to, so as to keep to our principle of getting over the ground. The next section begins in chapter 13 which we may call specially the parabolic chapter. It is divided into seven parables. In the first part the Lord leaves the house where He was; that is, the Jewish house. He comes out of that and speaks in parables and the question then is whether they understood. That is the next question to consider now in the order of our present inquiry. We should pick out and sort out the truth and make comparison so that we get the full truth. "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free", John 8:32. Each one is to know and be in the liberty that belongs to it.

V.C.L. Does the parabolic ministry help us to be ready for the ministry of assembly truth?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking. It is parabolic because there were persons who were not genuine. "He that has ears, let him hear". Parabolic ministry requires an ear to hear as in the Lord's ministry in Revelation. We must have ears to hear.

J.T.Jr. The state of the brethren comes out in these

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parables in the kind of soil and what it produces, I suppose. These characteristics would probably be present in every meeting.

J.T. In order to enlarge on what you say, the question of the house is to be noted. After the passage read in chapter 12 it says, "And that same day Jesus went out from the house and sat down by the sea", chapter 13: 1. That is, He has left one position and has taken up another. It is not yet another house, but a position by the sea. And then in verse 36 it is another house, different from the one in verse 1. In verse 36 it says, "Then, having dismissed the crowds, he went into the house". So that He left one house and went into another, "and his disciples came to him"; that is, they came into the house. It is not a Jewish house; it is a christian house, and that is what is intended in these meetings, that they are places of liberty, and the teaching of the parables is to help us to see that we are not in a religious house, a cathedral or the like, but in a house in which there is liberty: "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", 2 Corinthians 3:17.

E.S.W. The inquiries of the disciples in the house would evidence their desire to understand. Should that be so amongst us? Where there is inquiry in the house, it shows that we wish to understand.

J.T. Quite so; and that comes into what we have alluded to in verse 36: "Then, having dismissed the crowds, he went into the house; and his disciples came to him saying, Expound to us the parable". We have talked often with each other; we have questions, and it is right to have them, but the question is whether we are looking for an exposition of things, getting things expounded as Moses did in Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy has that principle: the footnote to chapter 1: 5 indicates that Moses began to expound the law, meaning that it was made plain. Deuteronomy is plain and simple and has a peculiar touch that Exodus has not.

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G.H. It says in Luke 19"As they were listening to these things, he added and spake a parable", verse 11. The Lord would take into account whether they were listening or not.

J.T. It is well to listen, but then the question is whether we have the idea of exposition, that Scripture is expounded to us. These meetings ought to have the character of exposition.

W.W.M. It says in chapter 5, "Seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him". So that it would be the disciples who get the teaching. He would say, 'your Father'. And now, in chapter 12, He leaves the crowds and goes into the house, and His disciples come to Him. That is the position we are in this afternoon. We have come to be taught.

J.T. Quite so; and another thing to be noted in that verse in chapter 5, is, He went up into the mountain and sat down. It is no easy matter to go up into a mountain. Those of us who are old may not be able to climb a mountain; but at the same time, if we are to get the instruction that the Lord has in mind for us we must sacrifice something, and so here His disciples came to Him and said, "Expound to us the parable of the darnel of the field".

T.E.H. They would know that if any one speaks it is to be as the oracles of God.

J.T. That is a feature of 1 Corinthians 3, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" verse 16. Our meetings should take on that character, and of course if we accept that they have that character, then we will try to attend the meetings and not allow such small things as showers of rain or snow to interfere with us.

S.McC. Would the desire for exposition involve preparedness on our part to listen and to hear the truth being opened up and set out in an orderly way?

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J.T. If the brethren come, they sacrifice something; but then the question is whether there is real sacrifice in order to get the truth, and a recognition that there is such a thing as the temple of God, and to inquire there. That is what the Psalmist says: "... to inquire of him in his temple". It is a place where you can inquire and get exposition of the truth, and so the brethren should be ready for help whenever they come to these meetings.

R.W.S. The idea is an opening up of the truth?

J.T. Yes; "... opening and laying down", Acts 17:3. That is what Paul did in Thessalonica: he opened up and laid down. The truth is opened up and then laid down in an authoritative way. It is not simply a question of what a brother thinks. It is laid down, to be understood in the mind; laid down authoritatively, so that one can say, It is so. Is there not such a thing as that? It is not a question of guessing, but having certainty as to the truth. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free".

J.S. The Lord's movements here involve going up into a mountain and sitting down, and then coming down and going aboard ship.

J.T. Quite so. It required energy. He went from city to city. It cost Him something to get about. There were horses, asses, and the like in those days, but we have no record that the Lord rode except into Jerusalem.

R.W.S. The Lord says, "The field is the world; ... and the enemy who has sowed it is the devil; and the harvest is the completion of the age", etc. That fits in with what you have said as to authoritative teaching. It is not drawing a bow at a venture. It is such and such.

J.T. Yes; the Lord spoke with authority and not as the scribes.

S.McC. One who goes through this course of instruction acquires great wealth, he has treasure.

J.T. Yes; therefore, it says, in the last verses read,

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"Jesus says to them. Have ye understood all these things? They say to him. Yea. Lord". They immediately answer in the affirmative. And then He goes on to say to them, "For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old", verse 52. That is to say, he has certain treasures, new and old. The Old and the New Testaments are implied.

R.H.S. It is noticeable that when He went to His own country to teach they were offended in Him, verse 57.

J.T. That proves what we have been saying. These things that we are dealing with now are spiritual; they do not fit with mere nature. So it says, "It came to pass when Jesus had finished these parables he withdrew thence. And having come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue". He recognised His natural relationships, but it says that those in His own country "were astonished, and said, Whence has this man this wisdom and these works of power? Is not this the son of the carpenter? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then has this man all these things? And they were offended in him", verses 53 - 57. However much there may be to confirm the truth you cannot trust nature as to it.

E.A.L. It says in verse 10: "The disciples came up and said to him, Why speakest thou to them in parables? And he answering said to them, Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not given". The Spirit gives us this knowledge?

J.T. That confirms what we already said, that the understanding of the parables implies the need for the Spirit of God, involving new birth. So here the Lord

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uses the expression, "mysteries of the kingdom of the heavens"; and He says, It is not given to them; that is to say, unconverted persons. Parabolic ministry is so necessary because the parable really hides the truth. In order to get it we have to search as for hidden treasure, and that is why the Spirit is needed. So the Lord asked these questions in verse 51, "Have ye understood all these things?" And they said they had.

F.H.L. The Lord has to speak of the judicial blindness and deafness that had come upon Israel, but He said, Blessed are your ears and your eyes.

J.T. God has been opening up the truth in the sense of revival probably during one hundred and twenty years, and we have come into the end of the period. And how great is our privilege!

S.McC. It is striking how the completion of the age is referred to three times in this chapter. It seems to be an expression peculiar to Matthew, except that Mark uses it once. None of the others use it; but Matthew does five or six times.

F.N.W. It says in chapter 13: 35, "I will utter things hidden from the world's foundation". Would that give peculiar quality to the treasure that is being developed in these finished products?

J.T. Quite so. We are in a hiding time, for these things are not for the ordinary religionist. They are for persons who are exercised; the work of God proceeding in them. If we do not have that in our meetings we will not get much.

C.N. So in chapter 11 the Lord attributes the unfolding of the treasure to the good pleasure of the Father. It says, "thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them to babes. Yea, Father, for thus has it been well-pleasing in thy sight". Is it the pleasure of God to unfold the truth to us?

J.T. The Lord links up all with the Father, the pleasure of the Father.

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R.W.S. How do you view the answer the disciples gave the Lord in verse 51? He says to them, "Have ye understood all these things?" And they say, Yes.

J.T. I would think He would accept it as if the principle of the truth was there. If they had in principle laid hold of what He was saying, the Lord would accept it.

R.W.S. I wondered, in view of subsequent history, whether it was abstract or was the truth there in some sense?

J.T. I would think so. The Lord accepts what they say, or He would have said something more.

J.T.Jr. They are beginning to value what He has been giving them.

J.T. The householder would mean a married man with a family. The Lord likened the one who understands to a householder. He said to them, "For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old", verse 52. The scribe is an accurate man, described as a writer, and writing tends to accuracy. But then he values things; he has them in his treasury, and brings them out. They can be displayed.

E.A.L. I think you have said concerning this passage that they were industrious learners.

E.S.W. The Lord's acceptance of their, "Yea. Lord", would show understanding is a progressive matter. They had begun to understand, but it is a question of going on and understanding more and more.

J.T. "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7.

E.T.P. Was the apostle Paul hindered in his exposition of the truth when he had to say the Corinthians were babes, not ready for meat?

J.T. Quite so.

S.McC. This word discipled: "Every scribe discipled

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to the kingdom", is important, is it not? It is not a question of taking on things loosely. It involves training.

J.T. Yes; like Enoch. He was the seventh from Adam which would mean, I would say, that he took up things as they started from Adam. His name would indicate, as far as I understand, that he was a disciple. He learns things on that principle.

V.C.L. Is the objective here individual responsibility and reliability in view of right functioning in localities?

J.T. That is good, because the scripture contemplates localities, and so we have the idea of local assemblies, places of learning. And we are not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (8)

Matthew 14:23 - 36; Matthew 15:29 - 39; Matthew 16:13 - 20

J.T. Were we to look, in detail, into the passages read, time available would not suffice us; so the thought is to note certain features in these passages that lead up to the assembly. Chapter 14 is especially important in view of all that we have had in previous readings. We should note the need of faith, as seen in Peter walking on the water. And then in chapter 15 the incident of the feeding of the multitude carries with it the thought of the Lord giving thanks, but not looking up to heaven; whereas in chapter 14 He does look up to heaven to give thanks. The thought, therefore, is to call attention, in chapter 15, to the presence of the Spirit here, rather than what is in heaven. And then in chapter 16, of course, attention is called to the foundation on which the assembly is built and all that enters into that, including Peter's position in the administrative system. It is thought that these remarks would help us in what leads up to the assembly formally in this book, which has been before us from the very outset in these readings. So that the first instruction is to learn how to walk on the water with the Lord, which is a purely faith matter. The Lord uses the words, "Why didst thou doubt?"

J.T.Jr. Does the element of fear come into that? He cried out through fear. Is that not often with us?

J.T. Quite so. There is much to fear in what we may encounter, and have encountered, even in a physical way, but we have to learn to be without fear, according to the great instruction to Joshua: "Be strong and very courageous", Joshua 1:7. We have to learn to go through things and count on God in these matters, as well as in the pressure of sickness. There is much sickness and there is apt to be much fear. We are

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at the end of the dispensation and so the Lord may be coming at any moment.

R.W.S. They were compelled to go on board ship; they were under command. The position was a right one, was it not?

J.T. Quite so. As we are under the Lord's orders, in a moral sense, we need not fear. "Who shall injure you if ye have become imitators of that which is good?" 1 Peter 3:13.

W.F.K. Has the fourth watch any dispensational value? Would it be the present day, near the end?

J.T. That is what we might conclude by observation. In the very early days of christianity the Lord's coming was not stressed in the same sense as at the end. It is stressed especially in the Lord's letters to the assemblies in the book of Revelation, which makes much of His coming. Of course it was always a truth to be held in hope.

F.H.L. This right position as under command would be supported by the Intercessor on high, would it not, despite the waves and the night conditions? That would apply today, would it not?

J.T. Quite so; the Lord's intercession on high is a very great matter, because He makes intercession for the saints according to God. The position of Christ now is in relation to a system. Intercession is a feature of it.

A.N.W. What is the significance of His moving from the mountain down into the very disturbed conditions where the disciples were?

J.T. I suppose to bring out what we may count on in these difficult times in which we are; what we may count on from the Lord to help us. Even if we have to suffer, we are to go through it patiently. But faith is the point. The Lord said to Peter, "O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?"

A.R. "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". He was nearby.

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J.T. The position in Matthew, in general, is on the earth. The Lord is here where the attacks are. It is not so much intercession that is in mind, as in Luke, but Matthew is that the Lord is here: "Behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". That is to say, He is where the attacks are made, and we can count on Him. And then the further word, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", chapter 18: 20. Think of the comfort of having Him in our midst in a time of trouble!

C.N. So that it is said, in verse 25, that He went off to them: "But in the fourth watch of the night he went off to them, walking on the sea".

J.T. It was to set an example of what could be done, even in such circumstances.

C.A.M. What would the ship mean in a practical way for us now? Peter descended from the ship.

J.T. Well, it would be something from which to get away. Faith would lead you to leave it to prove what the Lord can be to you. That is to say, the point is to bring out what the Lord can be to us, and He puts Himself in circumstances so as to be seen, so that suitable exercises should arise. They thought it was an apparition and cried out through fear. The circumstances brought that out. That is to say, "The disciples, seeing him walking on the sea, were troubled". The Lord intended that they should see Him. What is in mind is to bring out that the Lord Himself is walking on the sea; and Peter would have in his mind to come to Him. He says, "Lord, if it be thou, command me to come to thee upon the waters". The Lord intended that, and it must have been a joy to Him to find that Peter had that thought in his mind. There was more than that to come out, but Peter said, "Command me", showing how thoroughly he was in the spirit of the moment. And the Lord said, "Come". "And Peter having descended from the ship, walked upon the waters

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to go to Jesus. But seeing the wind strong he was afraid", verses 29, 30. They were already afraid, but now Peter is afraid because, having come down out of the ship, he sees the wind strong. "And beginning to sink he cried out, saying, Lord, save me".

W.W.M. At this point, is it a question of apprehending which is the greater, the Lord or the things that are against us? As long as his eye was on the Lord, he could walk on the water.

J.T. When he saw the wind, or the tempestuous character of the water, he was afraid.

A.N.W. Are we right in assuming that the source of this contrary wind was an evil one?

J.T. I would think so. I think it indicates evil influences. Satan is the prince of the power of the air, but this is a smaller matter than we get elsewhere; I mean, it is a limited incident, really, and yet it is a wonderful incident as teaching us a lesson of faith in the presence of what might cause fear. The Lord is moving and Peter has right thoughts and is governed by right principles. "Command me" he says to the Lord. But then the element of the water, and the wind acting upon it, is a thing we have to notice, and to see how the Lord meets it.

C.A.M. Since, as you say, the incident is not a large matter, would it be possible to apply it to our local church position? We have no such support as the ship might indicate. We do not belong to any kind of outward system of things.

J.T. I certainly think that. It is a question of whether we have faith. Instead of a system which we might rely upon in such circumstances, faith makes up for all that. We rely on it. It is the great lesson of faith; negatively the word is, "O thou of little faith".

A.R. Apparently he was not afraid of the water -- it was a question of the wind. Is it satanic power working in the lives of men?

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J.T. Quite so; "But seeing the wind strong he was afraid". It was not the water, as you say. "And beginning to sink he cried out, saying, Lord, save me", verse 30. So far, so good; but faith would have saved him. The Lord asked him why he doubted: "And immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught hold of him, and says to him, O thou of little faith, why didst thou doubt?" So that it is a question of whether we have learned how to trust the Lord in adverse circumstances such as are indicated here.

F.H.L. Would not Peter's position be the position we should all take at the outset? "Lord, if it be thou, command me to come to thee upon the waters". We must leave all thought of system such as is suggested in the boat.

J.T. I would say that. At first, after the Lord had gone to heaven, the disciples went into the temple, and I suppose they would get certain protection in the temple, but that did not last long; they were in the temple blessing and praising God. After the Spirit came down and the assembly was formed, then they left. The position was that they 'left all'.

R.W.S. Would Matthew confirm the point that there are no short-cuts in the exercises we must pass through? There seems to be no modification; it is the fourth watch of the night. But immediately they cried out, the Lord spoke to them; and when Peter cried out, immediately the Lord stretched out His hand to save. Would that suggest a sort of consummation of an exercise?

J.T. I think so; He does something. One has often wondered how things, that are real sorrows, go on and on, but presently someone does something that is according to the position, like Isaiah bringing in the figs and applying them to Hezekiah, effecting a cure. But then, God was acting before that; only the bringing of the figs was what Isaiah did. And so it is, that

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when a thing that is detrimental to the testimony is prolonged, we should question in our souls. Why should it continue? It may be that we are missing something that could be done that would help to modify our sorrows.

C.N. Does divine sovereignty underlie all this? The Lord's intervention saves the position. And does that lead up to the revelation to Peter in chapter 16?

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. In spite of Peter's failure was it not better to have left the ship in faith than not to have left it? Did he not gain an experience that the others did not have?

J.T. Quite so; he left the ship. Many a one has said, I would be with the brethren but for certain reasons, like the anchors that held the ship firm in Acts 27; meaning wife and children, or the necessity for a certain income, or the like. So that in Luke 5:11, it says, "Leaving all they followed him". They left the fishing boats, and all, and followed Him.

T.D. We can trust the Lord, even in a seeming impasse. He will make a way out.

J.T. Quite so; God is waiting an opportunity to support faith, even if it be only a little. The Lord says to Peter, "O thou of little faith". He had a little, and that is what the Lord is waiting to support; not that He expects but little. He is waiting for the evidence of faith in us. Here, however, reproof was intended in what the Lord said.

E.A.L. Does it seem that the disciples were particularly weak here?

J.T. The position is depicted in the history of the testimony according to Acts 1 and 2. The position in the boat alludes to Luke 24:53: "... and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God". That was good, but it was not praising God in the assembly. It was not the Lord singing praises in the assembly.

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W.F.K. Even though we are weak in faith, the Lord, in grace, will save us.

J.T. Still; He stresses faith. And I think the Lord would help us on the point of where the real thought of the assembly begins in the history of the testimony in the Acts; it was not in the temple. The temple was the provision of God at the outset in mercy and patience. He would stay with Israel. It was consistent with the testimony. But staying there and singing praises to God in the temple is not at all what we learn later, in the book of Hebrews: "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises", Hebrews 2:12. That was the thing they had to learn.

J.A.P. Do you see the position recovered in Acts 12:5? Unceasing prayer was made by the assembly; but still, there was lack of faith, according to verse 15.

J.T. There was. Prayer was made, and it was answered; but still the Lord did not get the full result of the prayer and the faith.

T.E.H. The apostle said, "But in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. That involves the full result?

J.T. Yes. I live by the faith of the Son of God. That is a high level; but then we have also in Colossians: "Ye have been also raised with him through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead", Colossians 2:12. That is a great matter. These are the great basic thoughts as to faith.

J.T.Jr. Would Hebrews 11, in its record of faith operating in the history of the testimony, fit in with this, especially in the movements of the saints?

J.T. I think that is right. The epistle to the Hebrews came in late. It came in much later than the testimony at the beginning of the Acts. It was in order that the Lord, through His servant (I suppose Paul was the writer) might take up the types to bring

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out the truth of christianity. Paul came in late, but the writing of the epistle was later than that. It alludes largely to the types and the Psalms, and is to bring out the authority and the use of the Scriptures in the late history of the assembly. We are now in the very late history of the assembly, and therefore Hebrews has acquired a great place among the brethren; a delivering place. It serves to deliver people out of human systems because there is the same sort of thing as Judaism in the systems around us, and we have to learn from the types as they did at the beginning. I do not know whether the brethren follow what I am saying, but I think it is very important to see the historical side of the position beginning with Acts 1, and where Paul came in, and the epistle to the Hebrews following upon that.

J.S. Do you feel that the systems have become Judaised, in principle?

J.T. They have, and the epistle to the Hebrews serves us now to get out of these things, because they correspond with Judaism.

T.E.H. Would it be right to say that everyone of the persons in the cloud of witnesses would be indicative of this measure of faith? In view of helping us into the testimony properly, a cloud of witnesses looms up before the soul; and I wondered if every one of those persons would have faith, "the faith of the Son of God".

J.T. Just so. They come in in Hebrews 11 to strengthen the position of the testimony. This "cloud of witnesses" is not before us as so many persons. They are persons who have come and gone in the testimony from the beginning. They have come and gone, but they are brought in in such a way that you can see them passing. They pass in a victorious way, so that the writer says, "Time would fail me telling of Gideon, and Barak ..." But then we have a general idea. The thought is brought before us in a sort of rapid way, so that we might see that from the beginning,

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right through, God had His witnesses. They are brought into the end of the dispensation to strengthen the faith of believers and get them out of the system.

E.A.L. Do we see that in the end of Luke 16? The Lord says, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets ..." There is a living voice still coming from them.

J.T. Just so; a living voice. We have an exact reference to that: "Ye have come to ... the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel", Hebrews 12:22 - 24. It is a voice. Each of these men had his voice, but the blood of Christ speaks better things. Everything that is brought forward in Hebrews must be better than the old system.

A.A.T. When they said, "Truly thou art God's Son", Matthew 14:33, what light did they have as to His person?

J.T. It is not the same idea as Peter's testimony. Peter, in chapter 16, is called blessed because of his confession, but these men, those in the ship, are not the disciples; they are persons in the ship. They are acting in the ship. They did homage to Christ saying, "Truly thou art God's Son".

J.S. Does Peter give the lead? He says: "Lord, if it be thou, command me to come to thee upon the waters". That is, it is to the Person.

J.T. Yes. These men in verse 33 were persons that were in the ship. We have not yet come to chapter 16. We have not yet come to the real formation as to the assembly, but these men are observing things. They say, "Truly thou art God's Son". That is by observation, not revelation; but Peter did not confess by observation. The confession was developed in him. It was something in him that the Father revealed to him.

A.R. What do you have in mind to say about chapter 15?

J.T. Just to get on to the thoughts with which we began. We have covered what is in mind in chapter 14, having come to the thought of the Son of God by

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observation, as remarked; but that is not revelation. We do not build on that passage when we come to chapter 16. These men did not get a revelation. What they had was by observing, just like the centurion in Matthew 27:54. It is one thing to see things, to learn by observing, which is right, but it is another thing to get a revelation, and christianity is built on revelation.

W.W.M. Is revelation more inward?

J.T. That is just what it is, although Paul said, "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:16. He used a different word; but the revelation as to assembly foundation was to Peter: "Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 16:17.

F.S.C. Is manifestation greater than observation?

J.T. Manifestation is one thing, and observation is another. But manifestation may be the means of light in my soul. It is a word John uses, especially in the last chapter; the third time of manifestation is referred to; but here it is what they saw in the sign on the water. Let us go back again to the passage that was referred to. It is said, "But those in the ship came and did homage to him, saying, Truly thou art God's Son". That is because they saw the things that happened.

C.A.M. I suppose it would be right to say that every one of us here knows that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God, but to know Him as Son of God, I suppose, is a greater matter.

J.T. Well, what we come into is what Peter had, the revelation that Peter received. That is the great basis of the assembly. It is found in Matthew only.

J.A.P. What does the ship represent when Jesus gets into it. Is there any change? You were speaking of the ship as being the position from which the Lord Jesus would deliver us, but when Jesus gets into the ship, and the men make this statement that He is Son of God, is there some change that comes about?

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J.T. I see what you mean. Verse 32 says, "And when they had gone up into the ship, the wind fell"; that is to say, the Lord came into the ship, which corresponds with what we are saying as to Acts 1. The Lord had led them out as far as to Bethany, and He went up from Bethany. It does not say that He went up from the mount of Olives. He went up from Bethany; that is to suggest that He still remains in relation to Judaism in Luke. He went up from Bethany. But in chapter 1 of the Acts, which would probably allude to the same position, the inference is that He went up from the mount of Olives, which would mean that in our minds we have to move on from Bethany. Even from Bethany we have to move on. We have to move to the position that leads up to the assembly, and going up from the mount of Olives would be nearer to the truth of the assembly than going up from Bethany. Bethany was a place of love, but in Israel. It is particularly a type of the position in Israel, but the mount of Olives was more than that. It was a heavenly relation.

A.N.W. I wondered regarding the boat, whether it had served its purpose, and we should learn that lesson. Now the Lord, as getting into it, is a further matter; leaving the boat is a vital matter; and the Lord quelling the storm, also; and the confession and acknowledgement that He is God's Son. All this is vital.

J.T. It is: He was moving in that direction; but the ship would correspond, I would say, to Bethany instead of Olivet.

C.A.M. That seems to be a very helpful suggestion, because after Bethany at the end of Luke, there is immediate reference to the temple where the disciples were found praising and blessing God.

J.T. Quite so; in the beginning of Acts they do not go to the temple; they go to the upper room. The position is changed. It is one of the most important things we can have before us, that the position of the

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testimony is in relation to the mount of Olives in the Acts. And they go to the upper room, and we are told who is staying there. It is a completely new position leading up to the truth of the assembly.

R.W.S. Is there order in the scriptures read? First there is faith, which you spoke of in chapter 14, and then the Spirit is implied in the end of chapter 15. Is that how we come into the assembly morally?

J.T. Faith is stressed in chapter 14; I think it is well to stress that. It is linked up with the observation of the boatmen, leading up to what Peter had later; that is, a revelation. But now before we come to that, which is in chapter 16, we have to think of the fact that that Lord did not look up to heaven when He gave thanks in chapter 15: 36, whereas, in chapter 14: 19 He did look up to heaven.

R.W.S. What do you make of that?

J.T. Well, I think it is to bring out what is down here. After the Lord went up to heaven, He sent down the Holy Spirit, and this second feeding of the multitude contemplates that the Holy Spirit is down here. In chapter 14, it is more what we have been saying, that it contemplates the Lord having gone up into heaven; and it is right to have to say to Him up there; and it is right to refer to God up there; but we have to learn to refer to the Holy Spirit here below, too, as a prime matter. We have to learn to do that. So it is a fixed matter that enters into the whole position of the testimony of God in this dispensation.

E.T.P. The Lord tells the disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they be clothed with power from on high. Would that link on with His compelling them to go into the boat until the other side is reached?

J.T. Very good; that is to say, the going into the ship is just a temporary thing, but the idea of the Spirit of God down here sets us out on our journey to the full thought of the dispensation.

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A.R. What is the difference between the twelve baskets in chapter 14 and the seven in chapter 15?

J.T. The numeral seven refers to spiritual completion; whereas chapter 14 is administrative completion. Both are true and necessary, but the point of the Spirit is particularly important in view of the character of the dispensation.

J.T.Jr. Is chapter 14 linked with the apostolic side, and this in chapter 15 with the Spirit's place?

J.T. Quite so; and we are in the Spirit's time, as much as they were; but we are not in the administrative side in the same sense, the apostles having to be taken account of at the beginning. But the Spirit continues with us always, even as the Lord is with us always. In Matthew the Lord is viewed as being here, because He is not said to have ascended. The Spirit is in mind as here, in this chapter, as indicated in the number seven.

T.N.W. You had something more to say about the manner of giving thanks?

J.T. Just that the Lord does not look up to heaven in chapter 15 to give thanks. It is said, in verse 36, "And having taken the seven loaves and the fishes, having given thanks, he broke them and gave them to his disciples, and the disciples to the crowd". It does not say He looked up to heaven because it is to stress that the Holy Spirit is down here. The point here is to show that the Spirit is in mind; whereas chapter 14 is the administrative side.

A.N.W. The Lord points out a distinction between the two cases in chapter 16: 9 which perhaps confirms what we are saying. He says, "Do ye not yet understand nor remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many hand-baskets ye took up? nor the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how many baskets ye took up?" It is a larger basket.

J.T.Jr. Does all this side link on with the inward conditions of the saints that comes in in chapter 16?

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The food would have that in mind. What is given to the people would bring about a constitution in them.

J.T. Well, the food in chapter 15 would. We are on higher ground. What has just been remarked as to the size of the basket and the number seven instead of twelve is important. It is to bring out greater thoughts, maybe leading up to such scriptures as Colossians, Ephesians and John's ministry. It implies what is peculiarly spiritual.

F.H.L. So that the feeding of the four thousand would be a greater thought than the feeding of the five thousand.

J.T. Just so; as implied in the size of the baskets and the other things of which we have been speaking. It is to bring out the greatness of the presence of the Holy Spirit here below.

F.H.L. Would it not suggest what is universal, also?

J.T. Quite so.

W.F.K. Would the food be ministry by the Spirit?

J.T. That is the idea, only that when you come to John's gospel the Lord Himself is the food.

R.W.S. In chapter 16: 4 it says, "He left them and went away", and the footnote indicates that it means to leave absolutely. He had left before, in a different way according to the earlier chapters, but does this suggest that we are to come into something special now in separating from the Pharisees and Sadducees as in unbelief.

J.T. I think so. That is the point we have to come to now, and think over a little. It says, "And the Pharisees and Sadducees, coming to him, asked him, tempting him, to shew them a sign out of heaven. But he answering said to them, When even is come, ye say, Fine weather, ... And he left them and went away", verses 1 - 4. Many may take the ground of leaving religious systems, but they do not go away. They linger about and are apt to go back again. But it says

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that the Lord "left them and went away". That is a word that enters into the moment in this chapter, meaning that we go into the assembly. We have a place into which to go.

J.S. Is divine fulness suggested here in the seven baskets?

J.T. Just so. The writer to the Hebrews says, "We have an altar of which they have no right to eat who serve the tabernacle", Hebrews 13:10. That is, there is exclusiveness. They have no part in this. It is not that we do not want to be with them, but we want them to understand they cannot be with us, except on right principles. Fellowship is in the light. We must have right principles.

A.R. The word is, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees", Matthew 16:11.

J.T. We are apt to be coloured by the company we are in. Unless we leave such we are apt to bring in their principles and influences.

A.N.W. Is it not in this setting that they become a wicked and adulterous generation in asking for a sign in chapter 16: 1?

J.T. Wickedness is defined in this chapter. So it is, that we have so much said about the facts relating to the revelation which Peter received. It says, beginning with verse 13, "When Jesus was come into the parts of Caesarea-Philippi" (note that even the geographical position enters into this) "he demanded of his disciples, saying, Who do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some, John the baptist; and others, Elias; and others again, Jeremias or one of the prophets. He says to them, But ye, who do ye say that I am?" Now they are tested as to the Person, not principles just here but the Person; Who the Son of man is. So Peter says, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". This is the confession. "And Jesus answering said to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh

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and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". Now this is the crucial point in Matthew; reference to the assembly itself being formed, and all that leads up to that. Points to be noted are: the separation from the Pharisees and the Sadducees in verse 4, "He left them and went away", and then the geographical position involving the nations, because the assembly would not only be drawn out of Israel, but out of the nations also. It is at Caesarea-Philippi that the revelation is made to Peter.

F.N.W. Why is a revelation required for the introduction of the assembly?

J.T. I think it is to bring out the wonderful nature of the assembly. We have no such thing as to the formation of Israel. Matthew 16 is the only place where you get the spiritual side stressed and emphasised so fully. It is a question of the spiritual basis of things in the assembly.

J.S. Does the Lord introduce Himself as Son of man to bring in the universal character of the assembly?

J.T. Yes; I think it is to keep clear of Jewish terms. The Son of man would be His relation to men; and that is the point He made. "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?" verse 13.

R.W.S. The very best opinions, outside of revelation, miss the mark, do they not? He asks His disciples, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some, John the baptist; and others, Elias; and others again, Jeremias or one of the prophets". I thought of how shut up we are to revelation as to who the Person really is.

J.T. The Lord is clearing the ground now, and Peter is equal to that position, because God acted in Peter, "Blessed art thou. Simon Bar-jona". The setting

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is to bring out the spiritual character of the whole matter; that Peter himself is blessed because of the confession; and so the Lord says, "And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter". It brings out who Peter is. It is a spiritual name. "Thou art Peter".

C.A.M. Is there a parallel, in principle, to the revelation to Peter, in what Paul says: "By revelation the mystery has been made known to me", Ephesians 3:3?

J.T. Quite so. Peter did not have all the truth as to the assembly. He was to be an administrator in the kingdom, not to bring out the truth of the assembly. But he said enough to set out the foundation of things.

W.F.K. Would every member of the assembly have to make this confession?

J.T. In some sense; we must come into it. It is mentioned here according to this chapter, and we all have to come into the thing. The light was there. The light came in through Peter, and it is here still. The Holy Spirit takes it up, and the light that Peter had is applied to each one of us. It is most distinctive.

C.A.M. There is nothing like this in relation to Israel, showing how very wonderful the assembly is.

T.D. It is a great feature in Paul's ministry too, as we have seen; after seeing the greatness and glory of Christ revealed from heaven, he brings it to the assembly.

J.T. Just so; And the Lord said to him, "It shall be told thee". He had to learn things. He did not get the revelation then. He got it later. God revealed His Son in him, he said, which is very much like Peter; in fact, in a sense it is more, as we have already noted.

A.R. Is the assembly set up on the same principle?

J.T. It is, and all outside of that is just Judaism, the public profession of christendom today is Judaism, in principle; it is really outside of this revelation to Peter.

F.N.W. The epistle to the Hebrews opens up, "God having spoken in many parts and in many ways formerly to the fathers in the prophets, at the end of these days has

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spoken to us in the person of the Son", chapter 1: 1, 2. Would that be the position here? He is not merely one of the prophets; He is the Son of God.

J.T. He is not only the Son of God. He is God Himself. God speaking in Son. The Speaker is God, God in Son. The article is not there. It is God in Son. The Son is viewed as God. He is the Speaker.

T.E.H. In connection with that, in Hebrews 12, when it speaks of "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven;" it goes on to say, "and to God, judge of all", as though the next step in the education would be that we come to God.

J.T. Yes.

A.N.W. Is the reference to Peter's parentage, in 'Bar-jona', to bring in sovereignty? "Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona". Why does He refer to his father in that way?

J.T. I suppose it is to link on the individuality of Peter. It is the same person, only he is not viewed as spiritual material under those terms. But when He says, "Thou art Peter" -- not. Thy name is Peter but, "Thou art Peter", the material is in mind. That word 'Peter' is important as regards selecting material; not only is the foundation referred to in the passage, but the actual material generally is there. I believe the whole formation is in mind. Here you have the whole matter of the assembly; not only the foundation in Peter's confession, the truth of the Son of God and the Christ, but that Peter himself is also essential to the whole matter. He represents the material suitable for the assembly, and all outside of this passage is, in principle, Judaism. There may be modification, because many of our brethren are in it, but all outside of what we are now dealing with has the character of Judaism.

F.S.C. Would you say why the transfiguration follows so closely on Peter's confession?

J.T. I am glad you bring that up now, for it should

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be kept before us. Peter had to come into that, too, as we see in chapter 17.

A.R. The only thing that is worth while in the systems around us is the work of God in men's souls.

J.T. And it all centres around these facts with which we are dealing. The work of God today is centred around these facts, the confession of the Son of God, and the confession involving Peter as material for the assembly.

A.N.W. Do you think we have to consciously realise that two divine Persons, the Father on one hand, and Christ on the other, have had to do with us sovereignly?

J.T. I am sure that is true. And the great place the Holy Spirit has had in recent times is also remarkable.

A.A.T. If a brother speaks in a prophetic meeting in keeping with 1 Corinthians 14:30, what kind of revelation is involved in that?

J.T. Well, it is a revelation, but what we have specially noted here is an action of the Father. Flesh and blood had not revealed it to Peter. It is not the Spirit, not Christ, but the Father. The Father is the Source of the revelation to Peter.

J.A.P. It is remarkable that Paul bows his knees to the Father.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. The Son of the living God stands out in Matthew. You do not get it in the other gospels.

J.T. It is over against Judaism. I mean to say Judaism is not living, especially as it is dealt with in Hebrews; it is dead. Sardis is dead, "thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead", Revelation 3:1. That is Judaism of the present time.

A.N.W. In speaking of Judaism, you are referring to the accredited religion of the day.

J.T. Quite so. It is Sardis.

R.W.S. Are there opportunities now in the assembly for revelation? I am thinking of 1 Corinthians 14:30.

J.T. Paul said he went up to Jerusalem by revelation.

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That would not be on the same level as this of which we are speaking. God would be pleased to give ministry in the sense of revelation to His servants, but it is rare now.

E.T.P. Paul says that his revelation was by commandment of the eternal God, Romans 16:25, 26.

J.T. That is in keeping with the revelation to Peter.

A.N.W. Nathanael said, "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel", John 1:49. But that is not this. The "Son of the living God" has a peculiar touch.

J.T. Just so. So here we have the Lord saying, in verse 20, "that they should say to no man that he was the Christ". That is, He is not going to bring out the idea of the Christ in public literature, religious literature. That is not the idea of this chapter.

J.H.E. Would what the Lord said in John 17:3 be akin to this? "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".

J.T. I think it would. This point, that the Lord enjoined in verse 20, is most important. "He enjoined on his disciples that they should say to no man that he was the Christ". Why should we not say that Jesus is the Christ? The Lord means that the truth of the assembly should not be reduced to the level of man's natural mind.

D.P. Did the Lord have Paul in His mind in the remark: "I will build my assembly"?

J.T. Quite so. Paul was the builder of it. We cannot just say that Peter is characteristically the builder of it, although he did build in it and he speaks of it too, and of the stones; but Paul is the one to whom the truth of the assembly was especially given. If we look at Paul's ministry in Colossians and Ephesians we shall see that he had the truth of the mystery. The whole matter is placed with him.

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W.F.K. To Peter it is said, "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens". That was not to the assembly. Would they be needed to supply material for the assembly?

J.T. Yes; the kingdom is subservient to the assembly.

W.F.K. We must come into the kingdom first?

J.T. Just so. Romans is, in general, the truth of the kingdom.

A.R. Paul says, "ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit", Ephesians 2:22. Is that included here?

J.T. I think so. In principle, all is included here.

R.A.L. Peter says, "God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ", Acts 2:36. Does he not confess there that He is the Christ?

J.T. That is ministry. That is what Peter spoke as a minister. The apostles were presently sent out, constituted ministers by the Lord's appointment; so that it is said that the saints at the beginning persevered in the apostles' teaching and fellowship. That was the position of the apostles as set up in the power of the Spirit; not simply set up by Christ Himself, personally, but set up in the power of the Spirit. At the outset the apostles were not complete. But they became complete. This was before Acts 2. According to 1 Corinthians 15:5 "He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve". It is not to the eleven. Twelve is the complete administrative number.

R.H.S. Would you say a word as to why this great truth precedes the disclosure of His death in verse 21? We might think it should be the other way round.

J.T. The remaining part of the chapter is to guard the foundational truth in the passage before us, because you can see how Peter failed. In verse 22, it says, "Peter taking him to him began to rebuke him". Think of an apostle doing that! It shows how our

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minds might come under the influence of the devil and we may talk about the most precious things in a purely natural way. The Lord has to say, "Get away behind me, Satan". That all helps us to see what is meant by verse 20.

Ques. Would you say something about the word that God hath made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

J.T. It is a gospel testimony; the time of the Spirit. The twelve were constituted by the Lord for this whole position; and the Spirit came down from heaven to make all effectual. But here they were considered worthy of having this wonderful charge committed to them, so that the thing should not be discredited, like pearls cast before swine. The Lord enjoined them to tell no one.

F.H.L. Were the Corinthians apt to be on the line of Peter's failure when the apostle said that they were saying, I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ?

J.T. Quite so. Any sort of untrustworthy sectarianism is what the Lord is rebuking here. Even Peter, the leading apostle, is rebuked. For this precious jewel, as we were saying, this gem of the truth contained in this section, is to be guarded most jealously from the natural mind.

E.A.L. Does the Lord act on that principle in verse 4: "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it save the sign of Jonas. And he left them and went away".

J.T. The terse reference to the sign of Jonas there is striking. That sign would mean that the Lord would be put to death. It implies the guilt of the Jewish leaders.

J.A.P. Referring to the assembly, Paul says, "The assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth", 1 Timothy 3:15. What is the link between the base and the secret that was committed to the disciples? Is that the truth, the Son of God and the assembly?

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J.T. Quite so. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth. What the Lord says in verse 20 is bound up in that, that the assembly is the ground of the truth now; the pillar and base of it.

J.A.P. You mean that we are not only holding objective truth in the ministry, but it is in our souls?

J.T. Quite so; it is a question of whether you are true to the trust. Paul speaks about that with which we have been entrusted.

T.E.H. Would you help as to the adverse conditions referred to in the gates of hades? How close they come to this marvellous setting of the truth.

J.T. Satan will get as near as he can to us. We have to be on our guard as to how we are holding the truth, so that hades' gates shall not prevail against it. The Lord regards us as reliable in relation to His interests here. The virtuous woman in Proverbs helps as to that.

T.E.H. Is some kind of administrative power on the part of Satan suggested in the gates of hades, that he would set himself up against the assembly?

J.T. He would get as near to the assembly as possible.

A.R. It is the only impregnable thing on earth at the present time, it is not?

J.T. Quite so; that is a very great comfort too. So that our point is to hold to the truth of the assembly, and all that enters into it as to love for one another, so that the enemy does not get in.

A.I. How did Nathanael get his understanding of the Lord as the Son of God, and as the King of Israel?

J.T. We have to follow the whole history as to Nathanael. Evidently he was an immediate subject of the work of God. He was a remarkable subject of the work of God, and the Lord recognised that when Nathanael said, "Thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel". Although remarkable, it was not as great as Peter's confession, but the idea of His sonship

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was there. Nathanael was capable of taking it in. It is well to compare Nathanael with Nicodemus. Nathanael was a quick learner in contrast to Nicodemus. The Lord knew that and said, "Thou shalt see greater things than these".

A.I. You were speaking earlier in the meeting about learning by observation. Would that work out in Nathanael?

J.T. I should think so; and then the work of God in him. If we look into the history of Nathanael we shall see that at first he was slothful, sitting under the fig tree. But he moved, and made steady progress. He was a peculiar subject of the work of God.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (9)

Matthew 17:1 - 13; Matthew 18:15 - 20; Matthew 19:13 - 15

J.T.Jr. We reached the assembly at the last reading in chapter 16, which is the centre of the subject before us; that is, the assembly, not as in heaven, but down here. So that the chapters following take on a special character as in relation to the assembly. The Lord had said that the gates of hades should not prevail against the assembly. That needs to be in our minds at the present time, that nothing can overthrow the assembly. It is what the Lord has set up down here. Then we should consider how the chapters that follow have the instruction of the disciples in view so that they might function in the assembly.

E.A.L. Would you say that the Father's voice in chapter 17 is confirmatory of Peter's confession, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"? Is it that the Father would confirm the disciples in the light that had come through Peter as to who the Lord was?

J.T.Jr. Yes; the Lord's sonship being the foundation of things and the Father's delight now coming out in that regard. So it says, "This is my beloved Son"; that is, God is calling attention to Christ on the mountain. If we have the Lord with us in our meetings we are on sure ground.

A.B.P. Does Peter later show how this experience fortified the disciples in relation to what is down here, when he spoke of it as the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in his second epistle? It gave power to the ministry here.

J.T.Jr. That is the only reference to it in the apostolic ministry. Peter is the one that makes it, showing how we may come into line with the truth, even though we may have been a little off at one time, as he was here.

A.R. Peter says that they were "eyewitnesses of his

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majesty". It says here that the Lord's face shone as the sun. Does that give character to Matthew's ministry?

J.T.Jr. I think that is right. The Lord's majesty is what gives character to the assembly in Matthew's presentation.

J.S. What would you say of the cloud of glory coming into view? It came into view at the Red Sea and Moses was told to stand still and see the salvation of the Lord. It would lead the people, and protect them, too.

J.T.Jr. Now it is the cloud in relation to the Lord Jesus.

C.N. Do you think that the instruction in chapter 17, which we have read, serves as education to the three apostles in view of assembly administration?

J.T.Jr. I thought that. The Lord takes up Peter, James and John his brother into a high mountain apart. That is, they needed to be brought apart from things here and brought up into a high mountain. It is a question of what we see. Those in the service, I think, would be especially in mind in these three; that they are to see things, and they do see things.

W.F.K. Beholding His glory would help us all in the assembly, would it not?

J.T.Jr. I think that what we need in these meetings is to be sensible of the Lord's presence with us. If we know He is with us then we are on sure ground in the way He will lead us in what may come before us.

A.N.W. The two added words, 'Hear him' are important in connection with what you are saying. On Jordan's banks the divine pleasure was announced, heaven having its own delight in Him, but here, while He is the beloved Son "in whom I have found my delight", these further words are added, "... hear him".

J.T.Jr. So that the Son is viewed here as the

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Operator and we are to hear Him. He is carrying on and He has His own way of carrying things through. We therefore should look to Him.

J.S. Divine speaking is in the Son.

J.T.Jr. Those active in the ministry will hear Him, and the assembly will hear Him, because it is the assembly that is in mind and all that is connected with it in its various functions.

A.R. Why is He seen with Moses and Elias?

J.T.Jr. They were talking with Him. It is, I suppose, their intelligence in the position. They come forward here, I think, to bring out the dignity of the Person of the Son of God.

W.W.M. "This is my beloved Son".

J.T.Jr. We are in touch, therefore, with the Person of Christ.

A.N.W. While Moses has his peculiar place and Elijah has his, the Father would emphasise that it is His beloved Son that has to be heard.

J.T.Jr. Yes; we have before us the personal dignity of Christ; His majesty; His power and coming. Power is always there in Him; there is no change in Him. When we come to the next paragraph there is weakness with the disciples in meeting a certain case, but the Lord's power is there and He is able to deal with it.

F.H.L. Peter, James and John would be representative of the circle of administration in the twelve?

J.T.Jr. I think so. They represent, therefore, the ministers in a general way, those who are active in the service. They require to see things. Their weakness comes out in this position and this illustrates our own shortcomings. The instruction they received here and the experience also would help them to arrive at a proper state in themselves to meet anything that might come up. They were not up to dealing with the lunatic.

A.R. It was a very hard case, a lunatic, and they

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were unable to heal him. The Lord says, "Bring him here to me".

J.T.Jr. That follows the instruction on the mountain where the Father says, "Hear him". The Lord says, "Bring him here to me". If we ask the Lord to do something and we agree on it, according to chapter 18: 19, the Lord answers us. He will do it in time.

C.A.M. Before the lunatic is healed we have the Lord's face shining as the sun. I suppose the word 'lunatic' has to do with the moon, but it is remarkable that lunacy only is dealt with in this gospel that has to do with the ordinances of the heavens. Lunacy is not referred to as such in the other gospels.

J.T.Jr. I think the sun alludes to the character of the government that is coming in publicly; that it is the Lord's government, and it will be of majestic character. There will be no darkness nor breakdown in it. Now, in the assembly, these features of the coming kingdom are to be seen. What will be seen publicly in the world to come shines out morally now in the Lord's direct government in the assembly, so that no case is too hard to be dealt with.

C.A.M. Psalm 19 speaks of the glory of God declared by the heavens, and then the sun is referred to as the bridegroom. "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the expanse sheweth the work of his hands. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech and there are no words, yet their voice is heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their language to the extremity of the world. In them hath he set a tent for the sun. And he is as a bridegroom going forth from his chamber; he rejoiceth as a strong man to run the race. His going forth is from the end of the heavens, and his circuit unto the ends of it; and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof", Psalm 19:1 - 6.

J.T.Jr. Yes; the kingdom of the heavens is emphasised

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in Matthew, and the Psalm you quote would fit in with the Lord's face shining as the sun. It is a question of majestic and glorious government which we know now in the assembly, but which will soon be public in the world.

R.W.S. Peter speaks of being "eyewitnesses of his majesty", and the note to the word eyewitnesses indicates that it is a word used for 'full initiation into the mysteries'. It would seem as if nothing less than full initiation is required if we are to stand in relation to the assembly and all its exercises in the rigorous conditions contemplated in Matthew's gospel.

J.T.Jr. I think so; and these three, Peter, James and John, would be examples of what is in mind in those who minister; that they see the same things and they say the same things. If there is disunity in what is ministered, there will be disunity amongst the brethren.

E.A.L. We are to be unified in right judgment; not a certain number being unified to overthrow a right judgment.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. This is "a high mountain apart". There is no idea of what is on a low level; that is, evil working underneath, or party lines working, which are always darkening. Here it is what is above. It is a high mountain and they are brought apart, as if the Lord would give them a clear view of things. We need to get clear in our minds and be free from all partisan thoughts and feelings.

E.A.L. The father of this child says plainly that he is a lunatic. He is very emphatic as to his condition.

J.T.Jr. He states the actual conditions that existed. As we come down from the mountain, it is a question of what faces us in our localities or our homes, and how things are met. Being on the mountain with the Lord should qualify us for meeting conditions like that of the lunatic.

C.N. Would you say the power and coming of our

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Lord Jesus Christ is not only a future thought, but it would be a practical thing that characterises assembly administration?

J.T.Jr. Yes; I thought that we should understand that the assembly is connected with such a powerful order of things. The Lord says to the disciples, that they were not to say anything about it until after He arose; meaning, I suppose, until the present period; that this position on the mountain should give character to the whole assembly position down here where the evil is.

A.B.P. Is that further confirmed by the description of the Lord in Revelation 1 of whom John says, "His countenance as the sun shines in its power", Revelation 1:16. That bears directly upon the assembly, does it not?

J.T.Jr. Quite so. Majesty is there in the allusion to His countenance shining as the sun and the description denotes that things are not right. His affections are bound up, but the judicial features are emphasised, meaning that the Lord is able and has the means of dealing with everything adverse.

G.V.D. There is the idea of regulation, in Psalm 19, in the law of Jehovah and the testimony of Jehovah and His precepts, which follow the reference to the sun and heavens in the first paragraph of the Psalm.

J.T.Jr. The precepts come before us in this gospel. We have had the mount of legislation in chapter 5, and we get further regulation in these chapters. It is a question of how things are to be met.

A.N.W. The close of the previous chapter might be taken as merely historical: "... until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom", verse 28. But chapter 17 should certainly make it plain that it is not merely historical. It is a moral and spiritual setting which should have its counterpart today.

J.T.Jr. This position of the Lord in His majesty on the mountain should affect us. It is to give character to everything in regard to the testimony here below.

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A.MacD. Do you think that the Lord coming to the disciples and touching them is important? It was the Lord's own movement here on the mount.

J.T.Jr. I think that is very suggestive. The Lord touches these three disciples. I think He had something special in them because He selected them for this occasion. Those who are specially selected in this way become known and the Lord would touch them and give them a sense of His own interest in everything that they are doing.

A.R. The case of the lunatic brings out the state of the disciples. The Lord says that because of their unbelief they could not deal with this condition.

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is a matter of faith again. It required faith for Peter to walk on the water, but here it is the need of faith in dealing with this kind of condition, and I think it shows how the answers come at the present time. The Lord says, "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say to this mountain, Be transported hence there, and it shall transport itself; and nothing shall be impossible to you", chapter 17: 20. That alludes to a very difficult set of opposing circumstances.

J.H.H. "They saw no one but Jesus alone", chapter 17: 8. Is that responding to the touch?

J.T.Jr. I think so. Moses and Elias withdrew. While we have great respect for those whom the Lord uses especially, yet the Lord Himself is to have the supreme place in our souls. He is in charge of the whole period of the testimony.

A.I. Why did the Lord refer to this extraordinary event as a vision? He said, "Tell the vision to no one".

J.T.Jr. I think it is because of what was seen. Peter says, "We were eyewitnesses of his majesty". It is a question, therefore, of what the ministers see. You can tell what they see by what they minister.

W.A.T. The disciples are referred to by the Lord

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as standing in Matthew 16:28. If we are standing we are available for an impression like this.

J.T.Jr. Standing would allude to their availability.

W.F.K. Why do you think the vision was to be kept until after the resurrection? Would the Lord have some reason for bringing in resurrection after this wonderful scene?

J.T.Jr. I suppose it is because the Lord's death and resurrection are the basis for everything, and this vision really bore on the present period, the period of faith. His resurrection would mean the establishment of the faith period.

A.N.W. Peter would certainly not have given such a good account of the matter before the incoming of the Spirit as he did in his letter. It is an excellent account which he could not have given before the Lord arose.

J.T.Jr. Showing how we can come round to the truth even though our state may not have been right at the time the truth was ministered. The Lord would bring about a state of intelligence in us as well as a state of holiness, that we might be able to speak of these wonderful things. Peter says, "... being with him on the holy mountain", 2 Peter 1:18.

A.I. Why did Peter say that the prophetic word is made surer?

J.T.Jr. I suppose it is because the prophets all pointed to Christ and faith is answered in Him. There is an answer to faith. Things are made sure, so we have no doubts. The more we come together the greater sense we have of the surety of everything that we hold in our minds and hearts as to Christ.

A.R. "Nothing shall be impossible to you", chapter 17: 20. Everything can be carried through in the assembly.

J.T.Jr. I think that is the point we should see today, that the assembly down here is able to meet whatever the enemy brings against it.

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R.W.S. You touched on an important point when you said that you can tell what the minister sees by what he ministers. There is the case of the man who required a second touch, but there is no second touch here. Would you enlarge a little on the matter of ministers saying the same thing? We are told that there are distinctions of services, but the same Lord.

J.T.Jr. I think the three distinguished apostles here were selected by the Lord for this special purpose, so that the testimony might be properly set forward and that unity would mark them. It came out specially in Peter and John in their service in the Acts, and what is needed today is that those who minister are of one mind; that they should get the truth into their minds and present it according to what they see. This involves going up and being apart. We have to leave everything here. Can we do that? Can we leave everything and go up and be apart and really see things. Then it also requires a right state in us.

F.H.L. In relation to what we see and hear, is it important to be at home with what is spiritual? In chapter 14 the disciples were filled with fear when they saw the Lord walking on the water, and here they are terrified at the voice.

J.T.Jr. I think the Lord has in mind to bring about in His disciples a spiritual state involving faith being active, because in the next position we see a lack of faith. They were not able to heal the lunatic. That is, the Lord has to show where the defect is. It is a question of state. Prayer and fasting alludes to what the persons themselves do.

C.N. So in verse 7 it says, "Jesus coming to them touched them, and said, Rise up, and be not terrified". All that would be for the development of a spiritual state in them and the activity of faith.

J.T.Jr. There is so much that comes up that requires clarity of mind to judge what is right, and also restfulness

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of spirit to deal with matters. The Lord would set us up in the power of this in the experience on this mountain.

F.S.C. Is it to be noted that the Lord's departure is not discussed here, whereas it is spoken of in Luke's gospel?

J.T.Jr. Well, I suppose what is in mind is really the bearing of the testimony here; the public side of things; so that Peter's remark as to the tabernacles would show where his mind was. It was running in certain channels to which he was accustomed. And we get accustomed to certain viewpoints with which we grow up, and in which we are rigid. These things come out and expose us. The Lord would expose us in them in order to get us to have a clear view, because what is needed more than anything else now is a clear view of things as to the assembly.

C.A.M. I suppose a clear view involves that we get into the unclouded light of heaven. All the confusion and lack of adjustment here on earth is because Christ and the assembly have not their proper place in the thoughts and hearts of the saints. Without that, everything is out of bearing.

J.T.Jr. The assembly is brought forward in chapter 16. It is only the assembly that can properly represent Christ. The assembly is a spiritual order of things that is based on what is inward and is able to appreciate what is of God; and we get our view of things clarified as thus we approach any subject.

A.I. Would the Lord Jesus coming to the disciples and touching them be an encouragement to them?

J.T.Jr. The Lord had in mind that they should not be terrified. How quickly we are terrified. We get upset so easily; things upset us, but what the Lord is bringing out is that the assembly is foundational. Nothing can upset the assembly; it is going through.

E.A.L. Paul addresses his first letter to the Corinthians to the assembly of God in Corinth. Then in

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chapter 9 he says, "Are not ye my work in the Lord?" verse 1. He would look on the saints in that place in no other light.

J.T.Jr. He looked on them in that abstract sense as the assembly of God, which was true of them; yet in the actual working of the assembly in Corinth, there were divided conditions, and the Lord is getting at that kind of thing here in this section. It is really to bring us into clarity. The bright cloud and the voice bring in the clarity of view; because everything depends on what the Son of God is and says.

Well now, chapter 18 comes in to meet the conditions that arise between brethren; and we have to acknowledge that they do arise, as they did in Corinth; but if they do, there is provision made in this chapter to go into matters and, if possible, to save the brother. But I think that if we hear the Son of God, and if we are on the mountain there will not be much that will need to be taken up with one another.

A.R. It says in chapter 18, "If also he will not listen to the assembly ..."

J.T.Jr. Yes, it goes on to that, the assembly being authoritative as having the final word. The Lord has the assembly here, and the assembly gives the final word as to everything.

A.R. We might say that we would like to hear the Lord speak. In chapter 17 it is, "Hear him", but we should realise that the assembly speaks also. We sometimes forget that side.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. It involves the whole company, and in speaking it would express the Lord's mind.

G.A.L. Is Abigail a type of the assembly as seen in Matthew? Is she the wife in the wilderness setting, whilst Rebecca is the wife in the heavenly sense? We are considering the assembly as down here. Abigail makes much of David in what she says to him, bringing out who he really was.

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J.T.Jr. I think that is right. Abigail has been referred to as typical of the church militant. It is a question of military operations in dealing with what opposes. God came in and dealt with Nabal and cleared the whole position of opposition to David.

D.A.P. Would not these three tabernacles which Peter suggested, if permitted, bring in confusion?

J.T.Jr. That is what would happen, but it is remarkable that the glory remains; that is, the bright cloud remains in spite of what Peter says. We may introduce something that is foreign and yet the cloud remains, but what may be brought in, in an extraneous way, is overcome. How much of what is extraneous is brought in at times, into this position of privilege. Christ's glory shines through it all in spite of what Peter had said.

W.A.T. God is quick to bring it in. "While he was still speaking".

C.N. Does the Father's voice clarify the whole position? "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight: hear him".

J.T.Jr. Yes; Peter, in a general way, represents our own condition and state. In the previous chapter the Lord had to say that Peter's mind was on the things of men. In this chapter his mind is taken up with Jewish thoughts; that is, he has the idea of Judaism before him. And what confused suggestions would arise out of all that! So that Peter represents our own condition which needs to be adjusted continually, everyone of us needs this.

F.N.W. Is it in your mind that one undertaking to serve should see to it that he is in accord with the present mind of God?

J.T.Jr. Yes, that the bright cloud has its effect, and that the Father's voice and the Lord's own personal glory have their effect. That all tends to bring the saints together, especially those who minister. They

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gravitate together because they are of one mind as to these things.

D.P. Should we be on the alert against two or three different elements operating in a meeting?

J.T.Jr. Three tabernacles were in Peter's mind, which would bring up a great deal as to what a minister might bring forward, how he may be out of line in what he may say in a meeting. So that in a meeting like this it is a question of the Spirit of God leading us in whatever direction we need, through whomsoever He may give the needed word. What has been recovered to us is the presence of the Spirit and the Spirit's leading in the temple. So that direction is given to the saints in such meetings.

W.F.K. The Father's voice would have us delight in the Son of God.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. So that the Father should have His part in our meeting tonight. He is saying, in principle, "This is my beloved Son ... hear him". He is not without those whom He can use in the assembly to bring out the line we need at any particular moment.

J.S. He would have us move into love's circle.

J.T.Jr. I think that the position on the mountain gives character to the following chapters.

A.I. Peter said that this voice was from the excellent glory. As taught by the Spirit of God he is able to describe the glory as excellent.

J.T.Jr. Yes; and he undoubtedly had often thought over the matter. As we ponder over things we are able to name them. It is the holy mountain and then the voice from the excellent glory. They are his own words, but nevertheless inspired.

F.S.C. What ground do we have for saying that the Lord could have gone back from this point to glory?

J.T.Jr. In His own personal right the Lord could do that. We cannot put any limitations upon Him. The

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Father's voice to Him here is sufficient: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight". Everything up to this point was perfect, and so to the end.

C.N. I suppose the bright cloud and the shining of His own face would be of the same character.

J.T.Jr. The Lord could have gone back to glory, but He goes on to the cross. The Father's voice says, Hear Him. It is a question now of the character of the dispensation coming out, and Matthew bears on that in regard to public government and church government. What we need so much in our localities is assembly administration, and this chapter is to bring us up to the proper level from which everything should proceed in matters here below.

R.W.S. So He says, "I am with you ..." in Matthew. He is here to see that matters work out in that way.

J.T.Jr. So that this mountain, in that way, remains; it is the mount of glory that is to give character to everything in the assembly.

A.R. The assembly has the power to bind and the power to loose, according to chapter 18.

W.A.T. This mountain of glory remains in its application to the present time. The mountain of verse 20 transports itself.

J.T.Jr. The mountain of difficulty and opposition is removed. We should experience something of that in our assembly exercises and also in our personal affairs. We should have the faith to say, "Be transported".

F.H.L. The same One who was on the mount in this glorious condition is in the midst in chapter 18. This should greatly solemnise the two or three, and fortify them also for testimony.

J.T.Jr. That is helpful. He says, "There am I in the midst of them". And reference is made to two who

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agree. This idea of unity, therefore, should be before us. We agree. It is a matter of unity in what we ask.

W.F.K. No local assembly would be weak if we were conscious of Him being in the midst. We would have all the power and wisdom needed.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. We would not have to send away for help. We would not have to wait for others to come in order to meet things. The Lord's presence is sufficient to meet matters which arise. "There am I in the midst of them".

S.W. Is the end reached in being on the mount, seeing the cloud and hearing the voice? When we see Him alone having the supreme place in the assembly, are we able to take care of matters?

J.T.Jr. The position on the mount is just one side of it. They saw things there but when they came down from the mountain they were not able to deal with the lunatic. We may see things, but when the actual conditions arise, how are we meeting them? So the Lord points out that this kind cannot go out but by prayer and fasting. That is not merely seeing things. Prayer and fasting allude to what is going on in our lives. It is piety; in other words, are we godly persons; do we bring God into our circumstances.

A.N.W. It is very humbling that this answer to their question, even though they were disciples, is, "Because of your unbelief".

W.W.M. In Peter's second epistle, where he refers to this matter, he speaks of the state of the saints, saying that they should use diligence to have in their faith virtue, in virtue knowledge, etc., and if these things are not so, we are blind and short-sighted. So that if we have the right vision, then we must act on it, and come into conformity to that vision.

J.T.Jr. Peter had gained in his soul when he wrote that, but at the end of this chapter he says the wrong thing about the taxes. He did not realise that he was a

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son. The Lord says, "Then are the sons free". The basis in the soul should be sonship. If we are conscious of being sons, we will be set at liberty, because we will hold in our souls that everything belongs to Christ.

A.N.W. "Give it to them for me and thee", the Lord says.

J.T.Jr. When we go out amongst men we are apt to be afraid to say what is right. We may say the wrong thing. If we do, we are untrue to our position in sonship. We may be in the presence of men who are ungodly though they may be nice people, but if we say the wrong thing in their presence we surrender our dignity in sonship.

C.A.M. Sonship is very prominent in this chapter. There is this wonderful voice from heaven: "This is my beloved Son", and then there is the man that says, "Have mercy on my son, for he is lunatic". Then the Lord says, "Then are the sons free". Meeting the lunatic condition required prayer and fasting but the thought of association with Christ in sonship is in mind at the end of the chapter.

J.T.Jr. The Lord saying, "for me and thee", puts us along with Himself and applies to all of the circumstances we may have to go through as meeting righteous obligations. We should not lower the standard of what the Lord means here. We should not surrender sonship.

A.I. Do you think the father of the child had faith? It says, "A man came to him, falling on his knees before him, and saying, Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is lunatic, and suffers sorely ... And I brought him to thy disciples and they were not able to heal him", verses 14 - 16.

J.T.Jr. How far on he was, we do not know. He was criticising the disciples. He said to the Lord, "Have mercy". The Lord brought out that what was lacking was faith. What was lacking was a state in the disciples consistent with what was disclosed on the mountain.

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Glory revealed on the mountain in itself was not sufficient; it required a pious life as well, the ability to bring God in. It requires bringing God in and having faith. Nothing is impossible to faith.

A.I. The man had some desire in relation to his son that the disciples did not have.

J.T.Jr. I am sure he had regard for his son, but whether there was faith operating in him is another matter. It did not seem to be operating at all.

R.W.S. Our apprehension of what was shown on the mountain seems to require time. Before Peter finished his service, he appears to have come to the full meaning of what he saw on the mountain. His second epistle, in which he refers to this, was evidently written when he was about to put off his tabernacle. Is God bringing us to it now? Do you think that the saints will come to this great standard that you are suggesting before the end?

J.T.Jr. I think so. We should work it out practically in our circumstances, because all of us are tested as to whether we are true to our citizenship and whether we are going to say the right thing when the crisis comes. The Lord anticipated Peter. He does not leave us alone; He will follow us up to get us right. That is what He did with Peter here.

C.N. In verse 13 it is said: "Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the baptist". They arrived at a certain understanding of things that they had not before.

R.W.S. The Lord says, "All power has been given me", chapter 28: 18. He is exerting that power now, not only in heaven, but on earth in relation to the assembly.

J.T.Jr. The operation of faith in the saints would link us on with that. Faith is a real thing, and no matter what the mountain or the obstacle may be that is in the way, faith is able for it. And these things

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underlie the administration of things amongst us.

F.H.L. A real test comes in at the foot of the mountain. Perhaps many of us do not realise the very exalted character of the ministry that we have been in the presence of, or the truth of sonship that applies to us. The test at the foot of the mountain comes in as soon as we leave this particular environment, and it is a question of whether faith is operating in us in relation to what has been ministered.

J.T.Jr. You feel that is so. What is at the bottom of the mountain alludes to what we have to go through individually and collectively. It may be in our families, something that is like a great mountain; or it may be other matters that are before us that are stumbling us, but faith is required, and the Lord is calling attention to it, and to the need for prayer and fasting, the pious conditions that are required amongst us if healing is to come in.

Chapter 18 brings out the true character of those who form the assembly. The greatest in the assembly is to be as a little child. If we receive Christ in our hearts we really become great. The assembly is composed of persons into whose hearts Christ has come. There is no other greatness; it is the greatness of Christ that gives character to the assembly.

R.H.S. Can the liberty of sonship be enjoyed without the Holy Spirit?

J.T.Jr. I do not think so. I think the liberty of sonship involves the Spirit being in us.

Ques. When did Peter acquire his power? He was very weak at one time. Was it when the Spirit came upon him?

J.T.Jr. He had real power among the brethren in the early chapters of the Acts. In chapter 1 he knew what was needful and led the brethren in it. In chapter 2 he lifted up his voice, we are told. He was certainly in power then.

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Rem. He made many mistakes all through the gospels.

J.T.Jr. Well, he was a figure of ourselves. We make mistakes, and we fail; but then the point is, how is it with us now? In Acts 2 he stood up with the eleven. That is where we should be, standing up with the eleven. I allude to the present position where the Spirit is.

R.W.S. You alluded to the family; does that bear upon our households?

J.T.Jr. Chapter 19 deals with family relationships. We did not say much about chapter 18, but the passage is well known to us. What gives character to the assembly in chapter 18 is the little child. It is that character of things, where Christ has been accepted. In chapter 19 it is a question of the family circle. The question of marriage comes up first; then little children; then young men. So that the relationships in which we all move are brought in in chapter 19. The Lord deals with the matter of marriage as it was in God's mind in the beginning. He says, "From the beginning it was not thus". He brings out the dignified setting of marriage as it was at the beginning.

C.A.M. As the light of heaven shines on these relationships, everything becomes clear. The troubles which hang over the world today are because heaven has been divorced from earth. As we think of the glory of the Lord shining upon everything from chapter 17 on, we know that everything is going to be set right according to that glorious light.

J.T.Jr. The Lord deals with the marriage question. We have the weakness of the public setting in the chapter, but the Lord, going back to the beginning, would give His disciples a clue as to how it should be held amongst the saints -- how the dignity of marriage should be maintained. Then, in verse 13 the children are brought to Him and He would have to say to them. We have many young ones and many babes, but are

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we really viewing them in the sense that the Lord has a great interest in them and wants to take them on in view of the assembly?

A.R. It says He laid His hands on them.

J.T.Jr. They were the same hands that touched the disciples on the mountain. He is thinking of the little ones and taking them on. But then the next section shows that one young man went away sorrowful. The babe has grown up and has gone off. The young man was not ready for the severity of the way. The Lord pointed to the cross. The severity of the way is the test when the young men become of age. The concern is that they might select the right way.

W.F.K. The disciples rebuked the children. We might hinder young ones.

J.T.Jr. It is an exercise that we should not hinder the young ones. We should be models for them.

F.N.W. Should both parents have before them what was in the beginning as to marriage? The Lord goes back to the beginning in regard to the matter.

J.T.Jr. Yes, if we took up the marriage bond according to what it was at the beginning, children should not be lost. The babes are taken care of by the mothers as to their material needs but when they become of age are they lost? The young man went away sorrowful. There evidently was a defect in the home. There is no joy in turning away from the pathway of christianity.

A.R. He had large possessions, and evidently was earthly-minded.

J.T.Jr. How are the children to develop? I think the Lord, in putting His hands on the children, indicated how He valued them. Parents should value them in view of their place in the testimony and train them rightly. This young man could not have had a right household training or he would have stayed with the Lord.

R.W.S. The Lord, as laying His hands on the babes,

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would say, in effect, I have done My part, now you do yours.

J.T.Jr. Just so, it is our part to bring the children up so that they will remain in the way with Christ.

S.W. The disciples rebuked the children, but when the young man went away sorrowful, the disciples were astonished at the Lord's words and said, Who then can be saved? Does that show how slow we are to learn? Peter stirs up the saints as to their minds, 2 Peter 3:2, 3.

J.T.Jr. His epistles greatly help, because he speaks of the marital side, bringing in Abraham and Sarah. The dignity of the marriage relationship is in Peter's mind. He brings it up in relation to Abraham and Sarah. They are brought forward to represent a proper household, and children brought up in it would remain with Christ in the way.

F.H.L. This is a very searching section, because this young man appears to be the very best that Judaism could produce. He desired the blessing but he was not prepared for the path of suffering with the Lord.

J.T.Jr. That is the serious issue today. Young people are growing up, but are they being properly trained for the assembly, or are they being allowed to go away? How will their training affect them when they come to a turning point?

J.S. It is a question of where their hearts are.

A.MacD. Much is said as to the word, and what Jesus said. Would that link on with the word on the mount to hear Him? And is it a question of what our children hear in our households?

J.T.Jr. That is the idea. What do they hear in our households. It is the parents' responsibility that the children abide in the pathway; that they do not go away sorrowful, but that they come into the pathway and identify themselves with the truth.

A.B.P. The Father's voice on the mount brought in adjustment before the matter Peter introduced could

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spread. Would that be an example to us? Often, as children grow up, they more or less dominate the conversation in the household, but is there not an obligation on the part of the parents to break in with a word and hold the truth as it really stands?

J.T.Jr. I am sure that is a very needed word for all of us, that the speaking should flow out in that sense through headship in the house, and as under the Lord's control, so that conversations are controlled.

Rem. Would you say that the prodigal son answered to the training in a good household? Although in the far country, he remembered what was in the father's house, and came back.

J.T.Jr. Yes, that is another point that brings out the character of the flesh, which is in every one of us. In spite of parental care we may turn to the world.

A.N.W. The young men may think it is hard to stay, but they will prove it to be harder if they go. This young man went away grieved. How could it be otherwise?

J.T.Jr. He had large possessions. Every young man has large possessions of one kind or another.

K.W.R. To follow the Lord's word would be like dealing with one of the mountains that had to be removed. Faith is required.

J.T.Jr. Yes; that is what it was; the young man could not remove it. It was too much for him, and it will be so unless there is faith.

A.R. Peter says, "We have left all". We should be able to say this, also.


You can never understand sonship until you see it in Christ. Becoming Man, He takes the place of Son, but the Lord did not begin His service until He was publicly acknowledged as Son.

Chicago, 1905.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (10)

Matthew 20:1 - 16; Matthew 21:1 - 11; Matthew 22:1 - 14

J.T.Jr. The first paragraph of Matthew 20 would allude to the whole period of christianity. It shows how God is taking account of the workmen and that He is not responsible to any in His affairs. He does not have to give an account to any of His matters, as it says: "Is it not lawful for me to do what I will in my own affairs?" verse 15. The parable shows that the Lord takes all of the workmen into account; those who are standing idle are put to work. I suppose He would have us all in the work, even though we come in at the end. It is our lot to come in at the end of the dispensation, and the Lord is putting us into the work.

W.F.K. Does the thought of the kingdom of the heavens being like a householder mean that all those in the house are subject?

J.T.Jr. The kingdom of the heavens is reverted to and we are shown what it is like. We have had the subject of the kingdom of the heavens in the previous chapters, especially in chapter 13, and we have seen the different forms in which it is presented. Here it takes the form of a householder putting people to work and making an agreement with them as to pay. It alludes, therefore, to the whole period of christianity and how the householder, the Lord Jesus, is taking account of the workmen. If there are any idle He would put them to work.

R.W.S. Those who are said to be standing idle did not exact any bargain from the householder as to their pay.

A.N.W. Do we have to learn that it is safer to rely on the sovereign will of the Lord than to make a bargain with Him?

J.T.Jr. Yes; the Lord is infinitely fair. There is no unreasonableness or unfairness in His action, although

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it is indicated here that there were those who murmured, implying that He was unfair. The Lord is not unfair in anything He does and He shews that no one has the right to question Him in the handling of His own affairs.

A.R. One of the greatest difficulties today is the labour situation which appears to be getting out of hand.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. The Lord is looking at the idle. He is prepared to put them all to work; so that there need be none idle. Christianity is not an order of things where there is idleness. He would have us work.

R.W.S. Paul says: "... who am not fit to be called apostle ... but I have laboured more abundantly than they all", 1 Corinthians 15:9, 10.

J.T.Jr. Paul would not make any complaint about his pay. He would be satisfied to labour with all the energy he had. He told the Corinthians that he was ready to spend and be spent, 2 Corinthians 12:15.

C.A.M. I suppose, in a way, he is a representative man at the close. He was brought in last of the apostles: "And last of all ... to me also", 1 Corinthians 15:8.

J.T.Jr. Yes. He speaks of himself in that way as having come in as an abortion, as belonging to another period, but he is not in any way complaining as to the labour that was put upon him. It is a question of how much we are ready to do in connection with the service of God. Paul carried the burdens of all the assemblies.

G.B.L. The apostle Paul speaks with respect about those in Christ before him.

J.T.Jr. Yes: "... who were also in Christ before me" he says, Romans 16:7. He looked upon himself in that way as having come into christianity after others.

J.A.P. Apparently the twelve apostles were not jealous over his coming in later.

J.T.Jr. The disciples were afraid of him at first, but

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Barnabas took him to the apostles and related to them how the Lord had appeared to him.

D.P. Is the vineyard here a more circumscribed area than the field?

J.T.Jr. I think it is a type that the Spirit of God would use showing where labour is necessary, so that there is no idea of a clerical system but of workers. There are those who are ready to work.

W.A.T. It says here the Lord found them. Do you not think it is an encouragement to all of us that if we are available for work the Lord will find us?

J.T.Jr. I think so. The Lord, coming out at these different hours of the day, would show that He is looking around to see who is there, and what the possibilities are. Perhaps we are overlooking them.

C.A.M. Do you not think that this is an extension of the answer to Peter at the end of chapter 19? He brought up the question of what he is going to get or lose in connection with his devotion to Christ.

J.T.Jr. Peter had brought up the matter as to what would happen to those who followed Jesus, and the Lord had shewn him what would happen in the regeneration; that the twelve would sit on twelve thrones. That is a great reward which, I suppose, especially alludes to the apostles.

C.A.M. Yes. It is interesting that the Lord says that to Peter, because Peter seems to have had desires to know what other people were to do, but the Lord is to have charge of everything.

J.T.Jr. Peter raised the question as to John in John 21. The Lord finishes the previous chapter with the word that everyone who has left houses or brethren, or other things, shall receive one hundredfold and shall inherit eternal life. They will lose nothing. We lose nothing by leaving everything for Christ.

A.N.W. And would the closing verse of chapter 19 bring in Paul? "But many first shall be last, and last

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first". That seems to be the principle that is developed in the chapter before us.

J.T.Jr. Yes. So that the Lord, in taking account of these various workers, would show that we need to be on that line ourselves as to those who are able to work, so that we do not overlook any that are able to serve in the preaching or otherwise. The word is, Why stand ye here idle? We need to be on the look-out for those who can carry out these services, and not keep to a certain few. We may be inclined to do this, whereas this parable would show that the Lord would put the idle to work.

A.R. Do you refer to those who have gift?

J.T.Jr. Yes. Invitations to serve may only include a certain few; certain persons, perhaps, who have had a reputation; but this parable would bring out that we need to take account of those who may be standing idle.

A.B.P. Would you distinguish between labouring for compensation, and bondmanship? The Lord speaks of the bondman who toils in the field all day, comes home at evening and serves his master at table before he himself eats and then speaks of himself as an unprofitable bondman. (Luke 17:7 - 10).

J.T.Jr. I think that would bring out the motives that govern those who serve. The Lord said that those who serve for wages run when the wolf comes. It is a question of our attitude in the service. There will be compensation, but that is entirely in the Lord's hands as is shown here. Those who murmured were the ones who had agreed to a fixed compensation, and their complaint only brought out that there was the principle of dissatisfaction in them. Paul did not serve for wages. He laboured more than they all without any thought of wages, and yet he could speak of the crown that was laid up for him. A true servant is not looking for wages. So that it is a question of the motives of those who are working. On the other hand, the Lord is infinitely

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righteous and there is the idea of reward, so that Paul speaks of the crown that was laid up for him, as we have said.

T.N.W. In verse 28 the Lord says that the Son of man came not to be ministered unto but to minister. Would that indicate that in the present position here below labour is proper, in contrast to the rest that we shall enter into eternally?

J.T.Jr. I think the parable is to bring out that christianity involves labour and toil. There is no idea of the clerical system but of workers. The Lord sees people idle; He is looking around to see who is available; who is standing; and would put them all to work.

R.W.S. He goes out. The householder went out in the early morn, then at the third hour, then at the sixth hour, then again at the eleventh hour. Does he set out the idea himself of energetic service in view of there being something for God?

J.T.Jr. I would think so. The Lord is constantly looking out for workers. We might say that we are in the eleventh hour period, and the Lord is looking at us to bring us in and to get us into the work.

T.N.W. Does the word "chosen", in verse 16, suggest that there is something distinctive about those who are ready to work?

J.T.Jr. I would think so. The eleventh hour is just before the end of the day and we are just at the close of things, coming into the end of the dispensation. We need to be workers, not to be thinking of our houses and other affairs. We are to leave them, as the previous chapter shows, and be ready to work in the vineyard, where there is to be a yield for God.

A.R. Paul says that he laboured with his own hands.

J.T.Jr. That shows how he took on responsibility in relation to the natural side of things and worked with his own hands. He said, "the Lord has ordained to those that announce the glad tidings to live of the glad tidings",

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1 Corinthians 9:14. Yet he worked with his own hands to minister to his own needs. He says, as to what the Lord ordained, that "I have used none of these things".

G.V.D. What is the character of the work involved?

J.T.Jr. It is the thought that christianity is composed of living persons who are marked by readiness to be in things, and ready to do whatever comes to their hands to do for the assembly.

G.V.D. This being the assembly gospel, would you think that the vineyard suggests that the service of God is in mind?

J.T.Jr. Yes, if we apply it that way, the workers are those that actually take up public ministry, so that things are done. Every person is looked on as a potential worker.

W.A.T. So there is no particular stress laid on ability, but on the readiness to work.

J.T.Jr. That is the point; the readiness to work.

C.N. I suppose there are various phases of labour in the vineyard; there is the care and the dressing as well as the planting and the reaping. So it is the general idea of doing what your hand finds to do.

J.T.Jr. That is what I think. This section brings that out. The vineyard is the sphere where there is work to be done, and we have plenty to do in our localities; and not only when we are together, but caring for the saints when we are not together; it is a matter of what we can do for them.

A.N.W. Do you not think one of the distinctions of the eleventh hour men is that they were not hired by anybody? They had to confess that: "No man has hired us". But under the Lord's hand they can be useful.

J.T.Jr. The systems of men would not hire such. We would not be taken on by them.

E.A.L. In verse 8, it says, "Call the workmen and pay them their wages, beginning from the last even to

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the first". The Lord does not qualify the workmen as being good or bad, but the last are paid first.

J.T.Jr. It brings out what was in the minds of some -- they murmured, saying they had worked harder.

C.A.M. The thought of the vineyard may suggest that at the end of the spiritual year there is an ingathering of the vintage. Perhaps we ought to be set for joy at the end of the dispensation.

J.T.Jr. That would enter into it; the joy of serving the Lord. How greatly it helps in labour if we really enjoy doing a thing. Our spirits are refreshed through doing it.

J.H.E. The steward, in verse 8, was like-minded with his lord. It is not said that he was told what to pay; he knew what to pay without being told.

J.T.Jr. It brings out the character of the system of things that is under the Lord's hand. And He is not responsible to any in His own affairs. We need to see that; the Lord needs not to make an accounting to anybody for what He is doing.

A.N.W. Is the principle seen in His words, "If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?"

J.T.Jr. Quite, so that we would not murmur at the selection the Lord makes in choosing those whom He will use. It is a matter of His own affairs, and He does not give an account to anyone.

A.I. Would you say that 'standing' means a readiness, as it were, for the work?

J.T.Jr. I think it would show that we need to be on the look-out for persons that are usable for the Lord's work, and that we do not get into a rut in extending invitations.

J.A.P. It says of Barnabas that he found Paul and brought him to Antioch.

J.T.Jr. That is right. He knew the man who was able to do the work; in a sense they did not accept Paul at the beginning. They were afraid of him, as

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remarked earlier, but they soon came to recognise the place the Lord had given to Paul.

R.W.S. We need great help in our localities. Should not this section help us as to standing by in our localities, to be available to improve what is already there?

J.T.Jr. I think so. There are those who come forward to work. But there is always a tendency with some to let others do it. We should lay it upon ourselves to see what is to be done. Christianity is a living order of things, implying the need for workers.

R.H.S. Does Hebrews 6:10 help? "For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and the love which ye have shown to his name, having ministered to the saints, and still ministering". Does that suggest that God will take account of every bit of work? The point is to be still ministering.

J.T.Jr. Just so; even a cup of cold water given in His name is taken into account. It is how it is done, and it has its reward.

G.H. In Romans 16 there are quite a number of persons who are ready and willing to work: "Salute Prisca and Aquila, my fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus, ... Salute Maria, who laboured much for you ... Salute Persis, the beloved, who has laboured much in the Lord ... Timotheus, my fellow-workman", etc. These are persons who are willing to do the work.

J.T.Jr. That is a good chapter to bring up here. Paul knew the workers and he mentioned them all by name. The epistle to the Romans would produce workers.

W.F.K. They all get the same wages. That would suggest that the motive is not a question of wages. Paul would never raise the question of wages, would he? We should serve because we love the Lord.

J.T.Jr. What is in mind here is that the Lord is in charge of His own affairs.

F.N.W. In our localities there may be those whom

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the Lord would help in preaching the gospel. If the local brethren overlook them, are other localities bound until they are recognised locally?

J.T.Jr. I do not think we need to wait in such cases before we invite a brother. It is a question of recognising what spiritual ability a man has. If he has gift it is in relation to the whole assembly. "How shall they preach unless they have been sent?" Romans 10:15, would show that there should be some evidence in the person that the Lord is using him.

F.N.W. There is a hesitancy at times to invite persons who have not preached in their own localities. I wondered if the Lord would not help in this respect?

J.T.Jr. It may be there are some who are idle who can be used, and this chapter would show the need for going out and looking as the lord of the vineyard did. However, if a brother has gift it should be recognised in his own locality and he should serve there, provided, of course, he is not otherwise disqualified.

W.F.K. Philip did not wait. He went down to Samaria.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; you do not need to wait in regard to your service, but then one might be shut out through dislike or personal feelings being active. This chapter would show that there were those there who were idle. Why had they not been hired?

R.W.S. "A prophet is not without honour, unless in his country and in his house", Matthew 13:57. Sometimes the brethren invite a brother from a considerable distance when they might have found a brother nearer at hand who could serve.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; that is the danger of getting into a rut in regard to these things and not seeing what the Lord may be bringing forward; what may be there that can be used.

R.H.S. Does work, as we are speaking of it now, always entail gift?

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J.T.Jr. I think we can apply it either to gift or to what is necessary to be done in any matter in our local gatherings. There are many things to be done. Entertaining the Lord's servants means work, and this falls on the sisters, mainly.

R.W.S. Phoebe would represent the sisterhood. She did a good work at Cenchrea, but she did a greater service in taking Paul's epistle to Rome.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; she is called "minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea".

E.T.P. Does Timothy represent one whom Paul found standing, and he took him on?

J.T.Jr. Paul was on the look-out, so to speak. John Mark had returned from the work. Silvanus and Timothy learned how to do things in company with Paul.

A.B.P. Would Luke be a special example of one who was prepared to labour, seeing that he wrote a whole gospel with a view to bringing one man livingly into the circle of the testimony?

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

A.N.W. Do you not think we are tested as Rebecca was by the asking of a little drink? The way we respond to a small request like that indicates whether we will get any more important work to do.

J.T.Jr. Yes; you feel that there should be a greater readiness to come forward to do things. There is so much to be done; and we should go forward and do it. Rebecca was ready to do it. She offered to do more.

A.N.W. She ran. Nehemiah said that the people had a heart to work, but that the nobles did not put their neck to the work.

G.V.D. The levitical gospel of Mark is characterised by such words as 'straightway' and 'immediately', which is quite the opposite to standing idle all the day.

J.T.Jr. Mark would show that things are to be done and done right away and well done, as it says, "He does all things well", Mark 7:37.

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A.N.W. Is that not a very severe word, in the prophet: "Cursed be he that doeth the work of Jehovah negligently ...", Jeremiah 48:10?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that the suggestion is that on the one hand, we might overlook persons and on the other that they may not come forward, which might indicate negligence and indifference.

G.H. God said to man, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread", Genesis 3:19. Man often looks on work as a burden, but is it not that there is a preservative feature about work, and that God has considered for men in that way?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; he is much better off, so that labour strikes are demoralising. What we have seen in this city in the last few days would make men wondering about the intelligence of people. But those standing idle here are not on strike. No one had hired them. They were ready to work and the Lord put them to work.

Rem. God set man in the garden to till it, before sin came in.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; work, in itself, helps us if we bring God into it. "Whatever thy hand findeth to do, do with thy might", Ecclesiastes 9:10. You will be helped in labouring. Laziness has no affinity with spirituality. The more spiritual a person is the more he will seek to do his work rightly.

A.T.D. Isaiah said, "Here am I; send me", Isaiah 6:8.

J.T.Jr. That is what we should have in our minds. The divine inquiry is, "Who will go for us?" And Isaiah answers, "Here am I; send me". Are we ready for that? There is so much that needs to be done, especially in a large city like that in which we are living.

J.C. In speaking of the heave offering, it says, "Take from among you a heave-offering to Jehovah every one whose heart is willing, let him bring it",

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Exodus 35:5. Then later, it says, "Every one whose heart moved him, and every one whose spirit prompted him; they brought", etc., verse 21. And again, in verse 23, "And every man with whom was found" etc. Is that the principle?

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is the willing-hearted. Psalm 110 speaks of a willing people. It is the idea of willingness. That comes out in Leviticus 2:1, "When any one will present an oblation to Jehovah". It is not command -- it is whoever will do it. It is a question of the heart being willing to move in the service of God.

A.N.W. I notice, in verse 11, that certain murmured against the master of the house.

J.T.Jr. When we do come into the service we find that we are under orders. We must be under the control of the master of the house.

C.N. What would you say as to the first being last and the last first.

J.T.Jr. It says, in chapter 19: 30, "But many first shall be last, and last first". It does not say all of them, but many of them. But in chapter 20: 16, it says, "Thus shall the last be first, and the first last".

C.N. Does it involve the sovereignty of God as well as a right appraisal of the service?

F.S.C. And is not this section written to set out the principle? "Thus shall the last be first, and the first last".

J.T.Jr. It shows God's sovereignty, but also that His ways bring out the reality of those who will be first. How truly they will set out and fill out the position. God has arranged for them, so that in the profession today you might say, there are those who have the first place and are recognised, even by the government. In a certain sense religion is recognised, but true believers who seek to be separate from evil association receive little, if any, recognition, generally. And, of course, such would not have a place, but are content to leave

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that to God. It is a question of His sovereignty. We are near the end. It is the eleventh hour, and we should be in the work.

A.B.P. We may feel there would be great advantage in having been at the beginning of the dispensation. This parable seems to suggest that the greatest opportunity is at the end.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. What an opportunity we have today! We have come into a living state of things in the service of God.

W.A.T. The saints living at the present time have the advantage of the church's history right from the beginning. Those at the beginning did not know, experimentally, what the circumstances would be at the end. We have the advantage of the whole history.

D.P. There seems to be room in the vineyard for all the workmen. There need not be any rivalry.

J.T.Jr. That is true. There is no need for rivalry, but it is liable to show itself. But I suppose that if we have the King in mind; if we are really true servants and bondmen of the King, there will be no rivalry.

A.R. The Lord says, "Is thine eye evil because I am good?" There is a footnote to the word evil -- "envious, jealous".

J.T.Jr. It is a question, therefore, of examining our motives, whether there is any jealousy with us.

R.W.S. We cannot clothe ourselves in a pious sort of way with this eleventh hour thought. We should examine our motives; why are we doing what we are doing? Otherwise we may find that we are like those who later murmured.

J.T.Jr. "Is thine eye evil because I am good?" God is good and why should there be an evil outlook with any of us? God is doing things for the good of His inheritance. We see that in the way God places His men in different localities. It is for the good of the saints, and we would not have an evil eye in regard to it.

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W.F.K. What would you say about the ass and the colt in chapter 21?

J.T.Jr. That comes up next -- that the King is coming into Jerusalem, and what a reception He is getting! This had its fulfilment when the Lord went into Jerusalem for the last time. He had such a reception, and it was God's ordering that it should be so. The hosannas went out to Him, and in a certain sense we can apply it now to the way that the Lord is given His place in the assembly. We know that soon He will come into it publicly, but then, we are giving Him His place in His city now.

A.N.W. We have the word, "The Lord has need of them", verse 3. That is an interesting reference. He has need of us, in that sense. "And if any one say anything to you, ye shall say, The Lord has need of them".

J.T.Jr. So that the position is clear. The Lord has Jerusalem in His mind and He has to say to it immediately after this parable. But now it is a question of the mode in which He enters the city. So the ass and the colt come before us here, and we need to see what it means-how Christ comes into His place in Jerusalem. The Lord has need of the ass and colt for this service.

J.S. It is at the mount of Olives, which would have reference to the Spirit.

W.F.K. Would the ass and the colt suggest the old and the young together? How does the carrying apply to us today?

J.T.Jr. I think it would be that the older brethren help the younger brethren -- and the Lord can use both. They are to go on together. We are not to be without the young. We are to have them with us. That is the way the testimony is carried on. The young are present with the older ones.

W.A.T. The colt is with the ass.

J.T.Jr. Meaning that our children should be with us.

C.N. It says that the Lord sat on both of them.

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J.T.Jr. If the Lord gets the place of supremacy in our localities, the idea of Jerusalem will come about. We are to follow these directions: "Loose them" and "The Lord has need of them". The Lord cannot get into the city if there are divided conditions.

J.S. "Loose them and lead them to me".

J.T.Jr. That would show that what is needed is to get into touch with the Lord.

G.B.L. The colt is dependent upon the ass. Do you not think that younger brethren should rightly recognise the older ones?

J.T.Jr. I think we should.

A.N.W. I think the footnote to the word 'foal' would help us here. It is a colt "the foal of an ass", in verse 5, and the footnote says, 'son of one under yoke'. That is a good word for us these days. There is a healthy state in a locality where the young and old go on together in this way.

J.T.Jr. I would say that. You would look for that; the older ones and the younger ones carrying together. We need to make way for the younger ones, and see that we do not offend them. Chapter 18: 6 says that they are not to be offended. Our affections would keep them near. The colt is with the ass. So that if we do not have them with us, there must be something wrong in our affections. We should influence them in the right direction.

R.W.S. This Person is called David's Son and Zion's King. Is it not impressive to think who it is that we are connected with in bringing Him into the city?

J.T.Jr. It is; what a time it was for Jerusalem! God arranged it so that His beloved Son should have this wonderful tribute in entering the favoured city. He was soon to be slain, but here there were no opposing elements. He went into the city in glory at this point, and they say, Who is this? God is bringing out the greatness of His Son.

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J.H.E. Verse 2 is helpful: The ass is tied and the colt with it, and the word is, "Loose them and lead them to me". That is important -- to loose the children.

J.T.Jr. You detach them from the natural side of things. The tied position is right, but there is a time when the Lord says, in principle, I want them; bring them to Me. We seek to keep them tied, but now we would loose them and bring them to Him.

F.N.W. Why does it say in this gospel that the ass was tied, and the colt with it?

J.T.Jr. I think it shows that the position was under control. I suppose it suggests that the household is under control.

G.B.L. Would you challenge a brother who does not have his children with him? Is he responsible?

J.T.Jr. I think most would feel that. But there are those whom the Lord has claimed, and the testimony is continued mainly by households that have operated on this principle.

A.R. Later we see the children in the temple crying, "Hosanna to the Son of David". They are not tied now, but in the temple praising.

J.T.Jr. It shows how soon they will begin to take on the idea of serving the Lord, if they are under right instruction.

A.R. The Lord refers to their service as "perfected praise".

A.B.P. Does the blessing of Judah link the vineyard and the Lord's entry together? "He bindeth his foal to the vine, and his ass's colt to the choice vine", Genesis 49:11. They were not only tied, but linked on with something very positive.

J.T.Jr. If we hold the position in relation to the Lord's interests, we shall see how things prosper.

C.N. Everybody in this section is in the occasion. The disciples did as Jesus had ordered them; the crowd strewed their own garments on the way; others

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kept cutting down branches from the trees and strewing them on the way; and the crowds cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; and the whole city was moved, saying, Who is this? So that the operation is great, and every one is in it.

J.T.Jr. It seems to show that God has ordered all this. And you might say that He is ordering it now, in our localities, in some sense; that the Lord has this response where the idea of His city is maintained. The whole city was moved, saying, Who is this? We know who He is!

J.A.P. Do our gospel preachings have in view getting the ass and the colt into this position?

J.T.Jr. I think they should. And then there is the unloosing; the ability to detach ourselves from what is natural, and to see what stands in relation to Christ is a great matter. Our family relationships are one thing; they are right and proper, but to see that our children stand in relation to the Lord is a far greater matter, and we want to see that they come into these things.

C.A.M. Our brother alluded to the footnote, 'son of one under yoke'. The matter of sonship has been so stressed at the close; do you think that there comes a time when we can be set at liberty to serve in the spirit of privilege? I mean, is not the idea of sonship a most wonderful privilege at the close of this dispensation?

J.T.Jr. I am sure you are right. That would all enter into the position in relation to Christ; so that when we come into the assembly, we begin to see the great range of things that is in God's mind. And one of the things that He has in mind is the marriage of His own Son. In chapter 22 it is a question of what is in God's mind in relation to Christ. He so delights in His Son that He makes this wedding feast for Him.

C.A.M. That is very good. It seems to magnify the way that the Spirit, in ministry, has opened up the great thought of sonship.

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J.T.Jr. Quite so; the greatness of Christ now is in mind in relation to His affections; and God's affections are in the matter. Chapter 22 implies that God is thinking of the affections of Christ. He is thinking of what is suitable for His heart, and He has provided for that which will answer to His affections in the assembly.

A.R. The servants have part in the work, too. It is a question of calling the guests. They are under God's hand in this matter.

J.T.Jr. I think we have seen that. I suppose it applied directly at Pentecost, we might say, when God was making overtures to Israel in regard to Christ. The bondmen were sent out to bring them to the feast, but they would not come in.

A.N.W. In that way we shall see again how the first are last and the last are first. It is remarkable how the Gentiles are brought in to be the first. The Jew was first but is last, and the Gentile last but first.

J.T.Jr. What an invitation there was at the beginning! God was doing something directly for His Son; making a wedding feast for Him, and those invited would not come to the wedding feast. This book speaks about the heir; Christ is the heir. They had said, "This is the heir; come, let us kill him", chapter 21: 38. That is what was in their minds, and they killed Him. But even after that God took account of His earthly people and bid them to the wedding. It was a bidding. In the early part of the Acts there was an invitation to the Jew to come to the wedding, but they would not come. So wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

W.F.K. They refused the invitation of the King.

R.H.S. Is not this invitation remarkable in view of the previous chapter where they are rejected, in principle, in the cursing of the fig tree? The Lord said, "Let there be never more fruit of thee for ever", verse 19.

J.T.Jr. It is; think of what came out in the Lord's life here in relation to Israel, in fulfilling the overtures

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through the prophets to them. But they would not have Christ. They slew Him. The Lord tells of it plainly in the parable: "This is the heir; come, let us kill him and possess his inheritance". But now, in this chapter, God is making overtures to His people. He would make a wedding feast for His Son and invite them to it. Many came in the early part of the Acts. They came to the wedding, but the rulers, and the people generally, would not come.

C.A.M. In the previous chapter the crowds took off their garments and strewed them in the way. Do you think that if what distinguishes us is sacrificed and put at the service of Christ, we would be ready for the garment of privilege and beauty that belongs to the wedding feast?

J.T.Jr. There is need for right attire at the wedding feast. There was an inspection. The king came in to survey the guests.

S.W. Would that be like the robe that was put on the returning son in Luke 15?

J.T.Jr. It would be a similar thought, but here it was the responsibility of the guests to have on the wedding garment. It is a time of inspection. The Lord is looking on us, and so we need to be clothed aright.

J.A.P. The enemy attacked the position in Solomon's time for Adonijah sought to be king and then he wanted Abishag.

J.T.Jr. The hatred came out at the martyrdom of Stephen. In principle they said that they would not have Christ to reign over them. They would not have God's selection. That comes out in the parable. They slew the bondmen. The same murderous spirit was in the Pharisees in verse 46 of the previous chapter: they sought to lay hold of him. I think that is why the Lord is so strong in His condemnation of the Pharisees. He denounces the pharisaical spirit in this gospel.

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R.W.S. This dispensation has been alluded to as nondescript because it says that the bondmen "brought together all as many as they found, both evil and good; and the wedding feast was furnished with guests". The test seems to be not evil or good, but what kind of garment is worn. Does that not bear on the assembly?

J.T.Jr. That is good. It is how we stand, personally, in the things of God. What is our clothing? Our clothing is what we are. Are we on the line of sonship? Are we in the good of sonship? It is a question of the garments.

D.Macd. How could one get in to this feast without a wedding garment?

J.T.Jr. I think it alludes to the position at the present moment, and what may obtain among us; what may not be real. This would bring out the need of searching, as to whether we really have the clothing on and are suited to Christ. "Examine your own selves if ye be in the faith; prove your own selves", 2 Corinthians 13:5.

E.T.P. The bride is not brought in here, but is reserved for later.

J.T.Jr. This parable is to make much of Christ. It is not at this point to make much of the assembly, but of Christ. He is so great that God would make a wedding feast for Him. That comes out in the Acts. It is the assembly; that is the bride, but this chapter is to make much of the Person of Christ. God is so delighted in Him that He is going to make this wedding feast for Him, and that is what is going on at this moment, that the assembly is for Christ. It is God's delight in His beloved Son.

A.B.P. It says in regard to the incoming of the Spirit, "... till ye be clothed with power from on high", Luke 24:49. In the house of Cornelius the Spirit fell upon the Gentiles. Would there be a suggestion in that of the garment that is suitable?

J.T.Jr. I think so. The full thought of the assembly

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really awaited Paul. How he speaks of labouring with the Corinthians to present them as a chaste virgin to Christ! We see that side of it in what Paul presents, and it stands related to this chapter.

A.McN. I suppose we could assume that every garment present was clean, except this objectionable case. Only those who have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb have title to enter into an occasion such as is set out here.

J.T.Jr. I think the case referred to brings out what is possible in our attitude, because it is really a matter of what we are in our state. How it should search us as to whether we really have the right clothing on in relation to Christ at this wedding. There is no room for anything else.

A.R. The Lord has been waiting long for the marriage.

J.T.Jr. It is a question of the feast. It is a time of feasting, you might say, at the present moment. Think of what the Lord has out of this occasion, and what invitations are going out for it!

S.W. John says, "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", Revelation 21:2. The adornment is going on now?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; I think we have seen the assembly in chapter 16. It is not mentioned here, but the assembly is in mind as being for Christ, and I think it is to bring out the greatness of the Person who has the assembly, for He is the King's Son. He has been into Jerusalem, but now it is a question of what is for His heart. Jerusalem would suggest administration, and He is seen coming in there meek and lowly. That is the attitude in which He goes in, and we ought to take on our administrative matters in the same spirit. But this matter is for His heart; it is how God delights to supply something for the heart of Christ.

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J.H.E. Those who would be suitably attired would have a right judgment of the spirit of murder in those who slew the Heir.

J.T.Jr. They slew the Heir, but now God has taken up His beloved Son and He is giving Him the assembly. He is doing that now, and the point is whether we are in the position with the right garments on.

R.W.S. This would normally help us in the service of praise in the morning meeting. The bride is not mentioned here, nor in chapter 25. It is the King's Son and the Bridegroom. Does that suggest the bride's appreciation of Christ -- as to how great this Person is?

J.T.Jr. I think so. We might say, too, that God has His part in that part of the meeting which is particularly for the heart of Christ. He made the wedding feast for His Son and His delight is in Christ having the assembly.

A.I. Was Rebecca not suitably attired for Isaac?

J.T.Jr. Actually, that came about on the way, I suppose. She received the garments from the servant. The articles of silver and gold and the garments are supplied to Rebecca. She is made suitable for Isaac, the heavenly man; and I suppose this chapter presents Christ in that way. He has gone into death, as the previous chapter would have in mind, but now He is to have what is for His heart, as the assembly represents.

J.A.P. Who do the guests represent?

J.T.Jr. It is typical, of course; that is, what is in mind is a wedding feast and what is suitable to it. The bride is not mentioned here, but I think the guests would enter into that.

A.B.P. Would you say that in what has been before us this evening there is the thought of what is being maintained in testimony here? It is not the heavenly side of things exactly, but we have the guests' position in relation to the wedding; and the vineyard was really

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Israel's but was turned over to others. It is the position in testimony here that is in mind?

J.T.Jr. That is really what we began with in this series of readings; the assembly in relation to what is down here; therefore it is the vineyard. Jerusalem and the wedding feast. It is all in relation to what is down here in the world, and the invitations are, in that respect, with regard to what is here. God would have us all in it. Christ has a right to everything. He is the heir. He is soon going to take up, in a public way, what belongs to Him.

R.H.S. "Garments of salvation" "and the robe of righteousness" (Isaiah 61:10) would be much the same as these wedding garments?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; I think it is a question of our state -- what we are -- all that enters into our moral fibre. Romans would supply all that, and it would come out in our conduct and personalities.

A.N.W. Do you think that the one who got through without a wedding garment was outwardly a 'good' person, but the 'evil' who remained would have the right garment on? They brought in "both evil and good". The whole matter depends upon the garment.

D.P.C. Would a 'good' guest be one like Saul who, according to the law, was blameless?

J.T.Jr. Very likely; but Saul became one who truly valued the assembly. And he desired to be found not having his own righteousness which would be on the principle of law, but that he might gain Christ and be found in Him, Philippians 3:9.

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READINGS IN MATTHEW'S GOSPEL (11)

Matthew 26:1 - 35; Matthew 28:16 - 20

J.T. That period of the Lord's history here which may be called the question period, is covered by verses 15 to 46 in chapter 22. Chapter 23 is an indictment of the Pharisees. Then comes the prophetical part in chapters 24 and 25, which is to be noted. It is remarkable, for no other gospel gives us the same facts as fully as we get them here. They are distinctively prophetic. Then the Lord's supper comes in in chapter 26; then the solemn and touching facts of the Lord's death which we would hardly attempt to enter into now. Finally, we have the position of the Lord in chapter 28 which involves baptism. The Lord is not seen as having gone into heaven, so that we are confined in our minds, in that sense, to the earth and what transpires on it. The Lord, according to what we have just read, says, "And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age". So that whilst the earth is still turbulent, occasioning distress at times, Matthew would say that God is taking care of matters in the sense of government, so that men are not allowed to do as they wish. Violence is restrained in such a sense that the Lord's supper is possible in it. The suggestion is, therefore, that keeping these things in mind, we should now consider chapter 26. Verse 1 says "And it came to pass when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said to his disciples, Ye know that after two days the passover takes place, and the Son of man is delivered up to be crucified". The passover was to take place. Then we are told in verse 6, "But Jesus being in Bethany, in Simon the leper's house, a woman, having an alabaster flask of very precious ointment, came to him and poured it out upon his head as he lay at table". It seems as if we should rest a little on this position in the house of Simon the leper as making way for the passover and

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the Lord's supper. The Lord's supper, as seen in Matthew, has become more prominent historically than in any other of the gospels, although Luke gives a clearer view of it than Matthew does; but the reformers and others selected Matthew to teach us as to the Lord's supper. And what took place in the house of Simon the leper would be especially in our minds, because it is a question of the Lord as Head, thus linking us on with 1 Corinthians 11. The Lord said of the woman who anointed Him, that "wheresoever these glad tidings may be preached in the whole world, that also which this woman has done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her", verse 13. So that what she did is carried down in regard of the gospel, wherever the gospel is preached. We are reminded that in preaching the gospel we must pay attention to what this woman did and see that there is accuracy and that no worldly principles are allowed in the preaching of the gospel. What she did involves the Lord's supper and the order of it.

A.N.W. For Matthew's purposes she is nameless. There is a reason for that?

J.T. It is to stress what she did in the anointing of His head.

A.R. You referred to Corinthians in regard to headship. Did you have in mind that the head of the woman is the man?

J.T. 1 Corinthians links on with this particular incident in Simon the leper's house. Our brother has called attention to the fact that the woman is not named, but I suppose we all assume that it was Mary of Bethany, a very distinguished person spiritually.

R.W.S. Is there teaching in the statement the Lord makes in verse 12? He says, "For in pouring out this ointment on my body, she has done it for my burying". Verse 7 says she poured it out upon His head, but He says upon "my body".

J.T. The head is part of the body.

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C.A.M. Would you mind repeating in what way the Lord's supper is distinctively looked at in Matthew's gospel?

J.T. It says in verse 20, "And when the evening was come he lay down at table with the twelve". They are mentioned in Mark and Luke also, but Matthew especially mentions that "when the evening was come he lay down at table with the twelve". The Lord's supper is in mind, but administration is in mind also, so that He sees to it that the twelve are there, that the administrative number is there, so that things are done in order. I believe, therefore, that we should keep in mind that order enters into the matter of the Lord's supper in Matthew's gospel. It is very important that it should be in mind; that things should be in order because the subject is enlarged on in 1 Corinthians.

A.N.W. What did you have in mind when you said that Luke puts the supper more clearly than Matthew?

J.T. He stresses the apostles; not only the administrative side but the authoritative side; the twelve apostles. In Luke 22:14 it says, "And when the hour was come, he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him". That is to say, authority is in mind. We cannot just do what we wish to do. We have to recognise the order and the authority that is behind the order.

A.N.W. Then did you have in mind, too, that while it plainly gives the passover cup it still more plainly brings out the Lord's supper -- the cup as well as the bread?

J.T. Yes; very good. But in addition to what we have said, Matthew and Mark take the whole matter to the mount of Olives, which Luke does not. And while the whole thing is done on the earth there is the idea of going up. Heaven is the objective, the mount of Olives being in mind.

W.A.T. It says that they went out to the mount of Olives.

J.T. I think that would be simply that they were

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leaving Jerusalem. They were not staying in Jerusalem, although the Supper was instituted there and it remains here in the presence of evil. The fellowship involves that there is the presence of evil. But going out would mean going out of the city. We are going out of the world. They went out to the mount of Olives.

A.B.P. Does the idea link with the original passover when they ate with their loins girded preparatory to going out?

J.T. It would; there is a link with the passover, although Paul would segregate the idea. He puts the passover in chapter 5 of 1 Corinthians and the Lord's supper in chapters 10 and 11, showing the Pauline system is to keep the Lord's supper by itself, and the assembly by itself, because it is in the assembly that the Lord's supper is celebrated.

J.T.Jr. Would the hostile scene that is in mind in the first paragraph of Matthew 26, where the chief priests and elders are referred to, connect with the local position in the way we sit down to the Lord's supper, as being in a city where the power of evil is present as it was in Corinth?

J.T. I would say that, especially because conduct in the assembly itself is in mind in 1 Corinthians 11. "On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep", verse 30. There was a want of self-judgment. Where there is a prevalence of sickness we have to take it to heart as to what the Lord may have in it for us.

Rem. Is there not a very striking and solemn note in the fact that while the spirit of hostility is seen in our chapter in Matthew, they take account of the feast outwardly? They say, "not in the feast", verse 5. Is that not a striking indictment of what is around us today? Men take account of things in a religious way without any thought of the pre-eminent place that Christ should have.

J.T. It is indeed, for it is a murderous spirit.

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J.A.P. Paul says it was in the night in which the Lord was delivered up.

J.T. Quite so. We often quote that. Luke refers to it, too.

Rem. Does all this emphasise that whilst the murderous condition is there, yet these verses coupled with the first few verses of 1 Corinthians 11 show the great place Christ is to have in our affections if the Supper is to be rightly taken?

J.T. Quite so; and also the order that enters into it. That is to be noted. Some of us, no doubt including yourself, would know that the Lord has been greatly stressing order in regard of the Supper for many years past.

A.A.T. Would you say we have order in Matthew?

J.T. I would say that the order would be more specifically in Luke, although it is here too.

R.W.S. Is it the thought that despite the public conditions, despite the fact that there might be just two or three of us, there is no excuse for anything less than the divine thought?

J.T. Quite so. The Spirit of God began with a good many more than two or three. It is a very remarkable thing that we have three thousand mentioned, and that is not an accident. Luke records that as to the first day of the testimony of the Spirit here below, and the breaking of bread is mentioned in connection with it.

R.W.S. I wondered if, therefore, the Spirit of God has been stressing the order of the Supper that we might come into the full thought in spite of breakdown and weakness.

E.B. Is the thought of order involved in Paul's reference: "When ye come together in assembly", 1 Corinthians 11:18? Is that one reference to the order of which you speak?

J.T. It is not just so many persons together, but

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the attitude of the persons that are in assembly; not simply in the assembly, but in assembly. It is the character of the thing. We get the article in chapter 14, but in chapter 11 it is "in assembly". It is the character of it.

A.N.W. Would the teaching of headship in the earlier verses of that chapter imply that it is to be learned at home?

J.T. I would say that. This may be so especially where there are a number of sisters at home, as there were in Philip's house. Then it would be stressed. There were four women there, and they prophesied. Well, that enters into what we are saying. The order that is proper to the Lord's supper ought to be stressed.

A.R. You have suggested that the brethren should sit down in numbers of fifties. Is that order, also?

J.T. Quite so; that has been a part of the teaching of later years. Earlier it was not considered out of place to have as many as three hundred sitting down together, with several cups and several loaves of bread.

F.H.L. Would this enter into what the apostle wrote to the Colossians: "... rejoicing and seeing your order", chapter 2: 5?

J.T. That is very good; that is said to the Colossians. Their order was better than that of the Corinthians; it was shameful the way the Corinthians carried on.

D.Macd. Would you help us in regard to the young amongst us who are seeking their way into the assembly? What are we to look for in them?

J.T. Well, they ought to be able to look at the elder brethren and follow their example. The elder brethren ought to be patterns, which is a principle with God; the idea of pattern comes in in Exodus and elsewhere. So the younger ought to learn from the elder and when sober and mature features are seen in them, and devotedness, they should be ready for their place in the assembly.

R.W.S. Is it in order for a brother who addresses

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the Lord in the service of praise to proceed to address the Father? Or should that transition be by a hymn or through another brother?

J.T. I would have no difficulty; I have done it many times, and I have heard others do it, too.

R.W.S. I have heard it said that it is well for a brother who is addressing the Lord to confine His expressions to the Lord, and that it is better when a hymn intervenes before we proceed to the Father.

J.T. Well, I am sure I do not know whether I would endorse that. The Lord Himself, in speaking to His Father in John 17, varies the titles. He begins, of course, in lifting up His eyes to heaven and He says, "Father". But there are variations in His prayer in John 17, and I believe this matter needs a little more attention than we can give it now, as to the place and the liberty that we have in access to the Father; the liberty that we have in the assembly to address the Lord, and then to address the Father; the same person doing both.

A.N.W. Luke closes with that note really. While not giving assembly order, yet they did Him homage and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God.

J.T. Quite so; they did the Lord homage.

Ques. Would you say that the Spirit would lead us on? When the Lord has received His portion, then we should move on to the Father. Would you think that?

J.T. I would have no difficulty about that; at the same time, we are all ready to learn; but the liberty that belongs to us as brethren as having access to the Father as sons of God I think would admit of addressing divine Persons alternately.

A.A.T. Is it not so that some of our hymns address both the Lord and the Father?

J.T. Well, I could cite certain hymns that begin with the Lord. If you begin with the Lord the hymn

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might lead you on to the Father, and I should not like to question that; but not to begin with the Father and then go back to the Lord. I should begin with the Lord, because we begin with the Lord's supper. It is not the Father's supper, nor the Spirit's supper, but the Lord's supper, and that gives scope to what we may do to move on from the Lord to the Father.

Rem. Would not your reference to John 17 raise the question with us of holy sensibilities and sensitiveness? One has noticed that the Lord, when referring to the world, says, "Righteous Father"; and when referring to the saints, He says, "Holy Father"; but as proceeding to the Father Himself, in relation to His own matters, He says with utmost simplicity, "And now ... Father". Would that not raise the question of holy sensibilities with us in these matters?

J.T. I think that is very good.

A.R. You have said that brethren in Christ and the assembly and sonship are collateral. Would that help in liberty?

J.T. Just so; they have all equal value.

G.H. In our meetings for prayer some speak to God, and some to the Lord. How do you look at that?

J.T. That is quite admissible. I believe the idea of liberty ought to be studied more in this matter.

A.T.D. All that we address to the Father is in the Lord's name, is it not?

J.T. Quite so.

A.T.D. Would it be lacking in reverence to omit the Lord's name in closing a prayer or a thanksgiving to the Father?

J.T. Well, the apostle does not always do that, although he tells us to do it. "And everything, whatever ye may do in word or in deed, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father by him", Colossians 3:17.

W.A.T. One has noticed that thanksgivings to the

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Father almost always commence with 'God and Father'. One seldom hears anyone say 'Father' alone.

J.T. Well, the best way to get help would be by referring to the Scripture. The Lord says, when He is in a certain place praying, "When ye pray, say, Father", Luke 11:2.

W.A.T. Would it be correct to start our thanksgivings with "Our Father".

J.T. It would be quite correct to say, 'Father', and also to say, 'Abba, Father'. It is 'Father, Father'. The idea of Father is stressed in the double term. We have access to the Father through the Son and by the Spirit. The three Persons are involved, therefore. The Father is viewed as supreme, and as the great Objective.

F.N.W. Is the thought of order especially important in view of the provisional setting of the service of God here below?

J.T. I would not like to eliminate the thought of order eternally. Not that anything will be out of place then, but still, the idea of order attaches to the position.

J.S. God is a God of order.

V.C.L. Would not many of our difficulties be solved by our recognising the headship of the Lord at the beginning of the meeting? If we are consciously under His control and influence at the time of our coming together, we will have no uncertainty as to whom we are speaking and when.

J.T. I think that is good. The Lord Himself gives us the lead; and also the apostles, especially Paul.

Rem. The Queen of Sheba was impressed with the order of service in Solomon's day.

J.T.Jr. Does the order that is necessary in the preaching of the gospel require some further comment?

J.T. I was thinking of that. We have the word as to the woman in chapter 26: 13. "Wheresoever these glad

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tidings may be preached in the whole world, that also which this woman has done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her". If we go to John's gospel we shall find much more about Mary of Bethany. What a person she was! And how the Lord loved her as well as her sister and her brother; but especially Mary! What distinction she has, and now she is brought down in the glad tidings to us as having a memorial. Another person who has a memorial in Scripture is Cornelius, the centurion of Caesarea. He had built up the thought of a memorial by almsgiving and prayer. It was built up in heaven. And this woman has the distinction that her name is to be mentioned wherever the gospel is preached in the whole world. That is remarkable. Therefore, we are all challenged as to how we preach the gospel, and the terms and the methods we use. I think the way it is set here would lead up to the institution of the Lord's supper, because it is a question of order.

F.H.L. Would John's touch as to the feet being anointed link on with what you are saying? Matthew suggests the ointment going on the body, whereas the touch in John is as to the feet, as if those who preach would follow that way through death itself.

J.T. Yes; so that the woman in Luke 7 has a certain distinction too as to the Lord's body; but this is a particular case, and I think we shall do well to think of it, so that in preaching the gospel we do not introduce anything that would be out of keeping with the institution of the Lord's supper; the order of the service of God. There should be nothing to interfere with the service of God in relation to the preaching of the gospel.

Rem. What she did must have a permanent place.

J.T. It keeps things right. If we have one person called attention to from heaven as an example, we do well to pay attention to what that person does.

C.A.M. Would you have in your mind the idea of

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burial in a very distinct way in this regard? She did it for His burial, which involves another order of things altogether. I wonder if this matter of burial should be made very distinct in the gospel.

J.T. Yes.

A.B.P. Does the apostle Paul support that in 1 Corinthians 15? He announced how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised again the third day, according to the Scriptures. He emphasises the idea of burial.

J.T. Yes. And then there is the idea of anointing in burial; but it is not as in Mark 16 where the women came to anoint the Lord after His death, which is not really a right thought. There should be no thought of embalming the Lord. But the women intended to embalm Him. The word is used in this translation, but there was no thought in the Scriptures that the Lord was to be embalmed. He was going to arise. If He is going to arise there is no need of embalming, because He would rise again in three days. Scripture speaks of three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

G.B.L. "Neither wilt thou allow thy Holy One to see corruption", Psalm 16:10.

J.T. Quite so. There is no need of embalming in view of that; but here He is anointed before He died, and the Lord is stressing that.

J.T.Jr. When Peter preached at Pentecost, he brought in that thought in Psalm 16. He really brought forward the spirit of things that is in this woman, and therefore is a pattern for us in preaching, bringing in the truth in the preaching.

J.T. I am sure that is good, because what we preach should be equal to the service of God, for the preaching is a part of that service.

A.R. Do you think the very standing up of the preacher should express that also? It says, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to

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preach", Luke 4:18. Should there be the external evidence of the anointing with every brother that stands up to preach?

J.T. He stood up to read in Luke 4, but then He sat down to speak, which we have to notice, too. So that the actual standing up is not so much as the unfolding of the truth, because the glad tidings are most precious, as having emanated from heaven, and they convey the most precious suggestions; so that everything that we set out in our preaching ought to fit in with the service of God.

A.N.W. According to 1 Corinthians 15, the appearings of the Lord are a part of the glad tidings; not only His death, burial and resurrection, but also His appearings.

Ques. Would it be normal to suppose that affections touched by the gospel would move with a certain alacrity to a committal to Christ in the Supper?

J.T. If the gospel is received, the normal effect is to have part in the Lord's supper. That is how things stood at the beginning, because when the preaching began, according to Acts 2, it goes on to say, "And they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers", verse 42. The whole service of God is in mind, and there should be nothing set out in the gospel that is not in keeping with the service of God generally.

J.A.P. Is that why Peter is careful to show that he is not excited when preaching? He says that they were not filled with new wine. Was there not sobriety with the eleven, too?

E.B. Do you think that the material secured through the glad tidings presented in the way you have been suggesting, would readily fit into assembly order?

J.T. It is quite important and worth while to refer to Acts 2, because it is the great model of the preaching, I would say, in the book of Acts. We are told that Peter stood up with the eleven; so that standing up is in order.

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"But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and spoke forth to them". He lifted up his voice. Notice that! And then it goes on to say, "Men of Judaea, and all ye inhabitants of Jerusalem"; that is, he is dealing with persons who are local. The testimony begins with the locality. The local idea attaches to the gospel and the service of God generally; and then, of course, the universal idea is there too, but there should be no variation, as the apostle Paul says, "Thus I ordain in all the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 7:17. The word 'assemblies' is plural, and it refers to the local positions, and whatever is preached ought to be equal to being included in assembly services.

Rem. So that in Acts 2:44, it says, "And all that believed were together". That is an assembly thought.

E.T.P. Simon, in Acts 8, was not discerned as unreal by Philip. It took Peter to see that he was not suitable for the service of God.

J.T. Just so; Philip allowed him a place, but Peter would not have it.

A.R. It would almost appear that those who were converted through Peter's preaching came into fellowship immediately.

J.T. Those that were added were counted afterwards.

J.S. They were added to the assembly.

J.T. Just so. The Lord did that.

L.R.P. Does Peter refer to the memorial of this woman when he says, "Jesus the Nazaraean, a man borne witness to by God"? Acts 2:22.

J.T. Well, I think that the memorial attaches to the service of God, the Lord's supper. This do for a calling of me to mind.

W.F.K. When we reach sonship after the Supper, does the priestly service end, or does it go right through?

J.T. That is another matter that would require time for our consideration. But I would say that priestly

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conditions were seen almost immediately after Peter's preaching. Of course, there were some who said, "What shall we do, brethren?" They were concerned about what to do; not simply what they should believe, and so it is in accord with the spirit of Luke's gospel, which is referred to in Acts 1"... concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach". It is a question of what is to be done.

J.T.Jr. So Peter's converts address the question to Peter and the other apostles, which today would mean not only the one who preaches but those in the service generally and brethren whose word would be authoritative also.

J.T. There are a number of persons who got blessing in a certain part of this city recently, of whom several have come into fellowship. It is normal that the breaking of bread should come in immediately, and the order that attaches to it, because the book of Acts brings that out, among many other things. It begins by referring to what the Lord Jesus did; that is, what He "began both to do and to teach".

E.B. Is the question of order involved in any way in the giving up of preachings in certain sub-divisions in a city in favour of hearing an especially gifted preacher?

J.T. I think the Lord would accord latitude to His people in such cases. It has been done on the occasion of special meetings or a general conference. We are called to liberty.

W.W.M. What would you say about open air preaching?

J.T. I think it is very good. I think Peter must have preached in the open air when he preached first. I do not know where he could have preached to so many in Jerusalem save in the open air.

Ques. If the young men go out in the open air to preach, the quality of the preaching should be maintained.

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That has been a difficulty often with us in the past. It has been thought that young men could start in the open air rather than in the rooms, but the quality should be maintained, having in mind this great truth of which we have been speaking.

W.W.M. We need the very best in the open air.

J.T. That is right, and not simply repetition. The truth should be imparted. We should take example from the apostles whom the Lord fitted and used as examples for us. We should consider their gospel addresses and see how they preached the gospel.

A.B.P. Does the reference to the Lord sitting down with the twelve suggest that all will be preserved, and the high level of the truth maintained? The disciples were self-confident. Judas was arranging to betray the Lord; but does the reference to the twelve mean that in spite of all this there is trustworthiness, and that the thought of the twelve is to be carried through?

J.T. It is important to see that the thought of the twelve is carried right through in the gospel.

W.A.T. It says that Peter stood up with the eleven; it is not that the eleven stood up with him.

J.T. It is the levitical idea. There were twelve and he would be the twelfth. That was a principle that entered into the gospel preaching. He stood up with the eleven. And persons who became exercised not only addressed their questions to Peter but to the others as well. It says in verse 37, "And having heard it they were pricked in heart, and said to Peter and the other apostles, What shall we do, brethren?" So that there was not simply the preacher, but the other apostles were present. The stress is laid on the apostles and on the number. It is the administrative number coupled with the apostolic thought of authority. All that enters into the preaching, because it is not simply the salvation of the persons that is in view, but that the service of God should be continued.

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R.H.S. Is that seen in Ephesians? It says, "To announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God", Ephesians 3:8. Then at the end of the chapter, it says, "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". Does it lead on to the service of God?

J.T. Quite so. Paul never thought of anything less in his preaching but that there should be results for the service of God.

A.R. Does Acts 2 fit into the last chapter of Matthew where they are told to make disciples?

J.T. I think that is right. Perhaps we should go on to that section of the gospel. It is said, "But the eleven disciples went into Galilee to the mountain which Jesus had appointed them", Matthew 28:16. Their number is short of one here; they are but eleven. But they did not begin to preach until that shortage was made up in Acts l. The shortage was made up, and there were twelve apostles when the preaching began. But here it is not so. This passage is to show that the Lord was there Himself and it was a question of what He would be and what He would do. So it says, "And when they saw him, they did homage to him: but some doubted. And Jesus coming up spoke to them, saying, All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you. And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age", verses 16 - 20. That is to say, the broken condition is there, but the Lord is with them nevertheless. The fact of broken conditions does not prevent His being with us. He is with the two or three. "There am I in the

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midst of them". That is the great point that is involved in this gospel.

J.S. He is in triumph, is He not?

J.T. Quite so. That is what you get here. They had adhered to His commandment. It was a good distance to Galilee, but they went, and the Lord came up to them, and as it says, "They did homage to him". And then it says, "And Jesus coming up spoke to them". The Godhead is then brought in; "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". It is in its proper order. The Father comes first always in the economy, and then the Son, and then the Holy Spirit. There is no irregularity at all in the mention of the holy Persons.

A.B.P. Is it the idea of one name?

J.T. I would think so. The Godhead is involved in baptism and it is one name.

A.B.P. Involving the height of the truth in christianity?

J.T. Quite.

Rem. Would all this show that not only is the preaching to proceed according to divine order but those brought in are brought into a sphere where that order is insisted upon? They are taught to observe all things.

J.T. That is good. "Go, therefore and make disciples". Notice the word 'make'. It means work done more than preaching. I believe it is the principle of pattern as seen in Exodus. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to" (notice that it is to, not in) "the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have enjoined you", (showing that there is no room for the natural mind at all) "And behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age".

A.B.P. At the beginning of the gospel, the Lord

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Jesus said to certain ones, I will make you fishers of men. The verse you quote shows that work is to be carried on.

J.T. That is right, I am sure; and it enters into our care meetings how disciples are made -- how brethren are made.

J.T.Jr. Would the eleven, therefore, connect with our local setting; that is, the broken conditions and our acknowledgment of that, and yet the Lord comes to that? It says, "Jesus coming up spoke to them". He comes up to us in our local position and speaks to us. There are some that doubt; but then, acceptance of the idea of the eleven would be what the Lord goes on with.

J.T. I think it is very comforting, and hence we can go on, however few or many; but not overlooking the things -- observing all things -- that He enjoins.

J.S. Is this a command?

J.T. Well, it is, in principle.

S.W. Would you say that because of this broken condition, there is need for this word of reassurance that all power has been given to Him?

J.T. What comfort there is in that for those in this room tonight! We do not say that we trust He is here: we know He is here, and there is power here, and we can count on that power.

Ques. Would you tell us why it says to baptise to the name?

J.T. The word 'in' which has the idea of power in it, is used in the same connection elsewhere, but it is not used here where it is a question of the objective being divine Persons. The disciples were to be baptised to Them.

Ques. The footnote suggests that the mind is directed to the point to be reached. Is it that divine Persons are to be before us?

J.T. Very good.

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G.B.L. Would that leave ground for our trusting that the Holy Spirit will be received by those who, as children, were baptised to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit? When they come to the point of believing, would we have ground to expect that they would receive the Spirit?

J.T. That is what Paul had in his mind in Acts 19 in connection with those at Ephesus. He clearly had that in his mind; whereas Philip, preaching in chapter 8, did not seem to have in mind that they must receive the Spirit. But the apostles sent Peter and John from Jerusalem, evidently so that they should get the Spirit; which was the point in their mind. Paul's point at Ephesus was just the same. "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed? And they said to him, We did not even hear if the Holy Spirit was come", Acts 19:2. That was almost inexcusable ignorance.

D.P.C. They were baptised to John's baptism, but does not the scripture show that they were re-baptised?

J.T. The passage goes on to say, verse 5, "And when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus" -- notice that the same preposition 'to' is used as in Matthew 28. They were baptised as soon as they heard the apostle's word. And then it says, "And Paul having laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them", showing the instrumentality of the apostles is involved sometimes -- not always, but sometimes -- showing that the Lord would stress the idea of His servants as well as that the Spirit may be given directly by the Father, or by the Son, or by His own action -- He came upon them.

A.R. Paul baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. It shows that any one of the divine Persons carries the thought of all -- the Godhead is involved.

E.B. Is that enforced by the apostle saying, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the

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Lord's commandment"? He singles out the Lord's authority. The Lord says, in Matthew 28, "All power has been given me in heaven and upon earth".

J.T. Quite so; and then Peter, in directing baptism in the case of Cornelius, commanded him to be baptised in the name of the Lord. It is just a question of the power involved in the name.

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REJOICING

Luke 10:17 - 22; John 20:10 - 21; Romans 15:13

It is a very touching matter that the Lord Jesus should be so moved in His spirit as Scripture indicates. We read in Luke 10 that "Jesus rejoiced in spirit". The thought of the purpose of God came before Him. He had sent out the seventy disciples and their service was successful, and they returned, it says, "with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us through thy name". It was an occasion of joy for them, but the Lord immediately replies, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven". He was looking much higher than they. They were occupied with what occurred on earth. He was looking at the base, as one may say; He was looking up. How much we are occupied with details down here in being occupied with what comes within our immediate notice. Now faith takes us outside of that. The Lord says, "I beheld Satan as lightning falling out of heaven". He saw the whole power of Satan affected at its base. The lightning mentioned refers to the rapidity of the fall of Satan. He said at that time to the disciples, "in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice that your names are written in the heavens".

For a moment I want to speak of His holy emotions, that "In the same hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit". What a perfect model, dear brethren, we have in Christ in regard to everything. As a dependent man here He took account of events, occurrences, and at that time the fall of Satan from heaven meant a great deal to Him. I wonder, dear brethren, if we have a sense of the complete overthrow of satanic power. On the other hand the Father was revealing what Jesus had been speaking of, to the babes: that was the cause of His holy emotion; what the Father was doing for the objects of His counsel of love. He rejoiced in spirit. What an element of joy

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it is in the soul of the christian that there is a complete overthrow of the power of Satan in the exaltation to heaven of Christ.

The seventy return with joy, but the Lord forbids their resting in any success in their service. He is not belittling their service, but He says, "Yet in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you". They had said that "the demons are subject to us through thy name". The seventy said the demons were subject to them through His name; that is, they were occupied with their own success, even though it be in the name of the Lord. That is not for you, that is for Him. All prosperity, all successes are for God, like the fat in the offerings. What you are to feed on is not that, it is for God. Our spiritual growth is for God also; growth in spiritual prosperity is for God. I have other food, but that is for God. We must be careful in regard to the fact, as God claims that for Himself exclusively. They said "the demons are subject to us"; that was by the power of God; therefore the Lord says, "Yet in this rejoice not". Take care what we are feeding on. If I am feeding on the fat, I am robbing God and building up a constitution which is wholly abnormal, and presently it will become damaging and will show itself. We must feed on divinely appointed food and so the Lord says, "Rejoice that your names are written in the heavens"; that is God's counsel. I can feed on what God does for me; I rejoice that God has done it. It is a question of His sovereign counsel that He has registered our names in heaven. Rejoice in this, rejoice in what God has done for you. Now, that is one element of the joy that I have been speaking of, and I would invite you to rest in that. Think of your name being divinely inscribed in heaven! Can you conceive, dear brethren, of society to be compared with "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven"! Hebrews 12:23.

Now the Lord in coming to His own in John 20 says,

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"Peace be to you". There is no upbraiding for unbelief. What is said is "He shewed to them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord". That is the point; that is what the Lord wants to effect in us, so He says immediately to them again, "Peace be to you". He says virtually, 'I want that joy, that holy joy that you are now enjoying to be permanent'. And so He brings in peace, His own peace, in order that there should be holy joy and that it should abide and be confirmed as part of us, so that our capacity increases. It is an immense thing to know what the joy of the Spirit is and to retain it, that it should not slip away, but that with the joy our capacity is increased. Therefore said Jesus to them again, "Peace be to you". He says it twice; He says 'Peace' twice according to John's account. He first settles their hearts in regard to themselves and then confirms the joy that His presence accords.

The passage in Romans 15 speaks of "the God of hope". The present time is a time when the saints should be encouraged in regard to hope. We are in need of hope. Certainly the events of the world are such as to dissipate any hopes we might have had in regard to it. God grant that we may be delivered from any such hopes! God is not the God of such hopes, but He is the God of hope, and He holds out the hope of the return of the Lord Jesus from heaven. And so "the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing". In believing, I apprehend the whole system of things that He has set up for me in Christ. I have access within the veil, and it is only for a moment and the veil that covers will be taken away, and then sight will take the place of faith. For the moment it is joy and peace in believing. May God grant it to us!

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COMMENTS ON THE IDENTITY OF THE BEASTS OF REVELATION 13 AND THE MAN OF SIN OF 2 THESSALONIANS

The man of sin, as described in 2 Thessalonians 2, is referred to as somewhat covering both beasts of Revelation 13. The man of sin embraces more than is stated of the second beast. He opposes and exalts himself on high against all called God, or object of veneration; so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, verse 4.

The second beast, in a general way, is engaged in making the first beast all this. He exercises all the authority of the first beast before it, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to do homage to the first beast. The first beast is more anti-God than anti-Christ, and this marks the man of sin as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2.

The idea of beast in Revelation 13 includes a system or empire, and no doubt the second beast, comparing what is said of him in Daniel, is the head of a kingdom in the East, subordinate to the emperor of the West, but each system is clearly identified with its head -- both men, as Revelation clearly shows, for both are cast into the lake of fire. The first beast is clearly the revived Roman Empire; but still, he opens his mouth in blasphemies against God, in keeping with what is said of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2. He is said to be the object of worship before the second beast is introduced, and then the latter is seen as operating to bring all to worship the first beast -- not himself.

The person described in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the man of sin; the son of perdition; the lawless one. He exalts himself. There is no suggestion of one greater. Thus, if this is seen in the second beast, the first must be included. This is intelligible, on the principle of the trinity of evil persons, which Revelation 13 presents.

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Hence, if in the divine economy the Son is said to be the true God, the Father cannot be excluded.

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Pages 249 - 478 -- "Notes of Readings in New York and Other Ministry", 1948 (Volume 177).

JUDGMENT (1)

Romans 1:16 - 23, 28 - 32; Romans 2:1 - 16; Romans 3:1 - 20

J.T.Jr. It is thought that we should consider the subject of judgment. The thought of judgment is expressed in a very full way in the gospel of which Paul speaks in the epistle to the Romans. It says, in chapter 2: 16, "... in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ". The gospel brings in God's righteous judgment as to everything; and Paul is the apostle thus used.

We shall consider also, the ministry of the other apostles who speak of judgment, but Paul gives us the fullest idea of it, I would say, referring to his gospel as the means, or measure, by which God will judge the secrets of men. So that this epistle, up to chapter 3: 20, shows how the gospel is demonstrating what God thinks of the conditions that were found in the world. We get the expression: "The righteous judgment of God". That stands! There may be other judgments or no judgment at all with some, but chapter 1: 32 shows that there were certain persons who knew. It says, "... who knowing the righteous judgment of God ..." That is, they knew it and still they went on with the evil, knowing that they who do such things are worthy of death. So that they not only practise them, but have fellow delight in those who do them. Therefore, we see how the gospel brings us to a right judgment of ourselves and of things in this world. We are to have a right basis laid in our souls so that we know how to judge aright. If there are differences of judgment amongst us we have to acknowledge this and see how

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unity of judgment is reached, which, of course, must be a righteous judgment. God's judgment of vile conditions in the world is stated here and there is nothing that can be rightly said against it. What God has decreed as regards the conditions in the world stands; His mind is made known. So it says, "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men", verse 18. That is, though God's present disposition is forgiveness, there will nevertheless be a day of reckoning of the evil conduct of persons who do not obey the gospel.

R.W.S. That which, through grace, has been presented for man's blessing will become the basis of his condemnation; "according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ".

A.R. There is a footnote to the expression "righteous judgment" in verse 32, which reads, 'What the righteous will of God requires; even an ordinance of his will, or act meeting his requirement'.

J.T.Jr. Yes; there is that which God required and men knew that. There can be no change in what He requires. The note helps us to understand that the will of God required that those guilty of such evil conduct be punished by death.

R.H.S. Have you present judgment in mind or judgment in a future day in which God is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the Man whom He has appointed?

J.T.Jr. In the passage you refer to, Paul speaks of the Lord judging in righteousness, and the day is appointed, which would refer to the millennium. It refers to the character of Christ's reign. Now, "wrath of God" is revealed from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness. This is not against persons; it is upon things. The judgment of persons is future. We are therefore to have a proper judgment of evil. These

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chapters deal with the gross evil that is in the world and help us to judge it and get clear of it.

A.R. The Lord said, "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out", John 12:31.

J.T.Jr. When He said, 'Now', He was alluding to what came out as a result of their rejection of Him and His ministry. The cross was the immediate testimony to the judgment. Paul in saying, "God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ", is bringing out the full thought of judgment to come, and it agrees with the Lord's own ministry which they rejected. In these chapters the apostle gives us God's own estimate of the evil in the world.

A.B.P. Would you say that verse 28 suggests that men reached a certain judgment? "According as they did not think good to have God in their knowledge". They reached a mental conclusion, that they did not judge it well to keep God in their thoughts.

J.T.Jr. Yes; and they "fell into folly in their thoughts", verse 21. That refers to the working of the mind, and then the reprobate mind is referred to in verse 28.

A.N.W. The gospel is glad tidings: "righteousness of God is revealed therein". It is really for man; it is not against him.

J.T.Jr. That is right.

A.N.W. God reserves His rights in mercy. It does not say that wrath is revealed in the gospel. It is revealed from heaven. Righteousness of God is revealed in the gospel, on the principle of faith to faith.

J.T.Jr. We read, in verse 18, "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety", etc. It is revealed from heaven and it is against things, not persons, as already remarked. The teaching of the gospel is in mind in this book. Paul says, "ye ... have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which ye were instructed", chapter 6: 17.

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W.A.T. While judgment is God's strange work, yet the background of the gospel is God's judgment.

J.T.Jr. God's judgment of evil is set out in the gospel. The revelation of wrath is not from the earth, as the footnote says, but from heaven. Paul says, as we have already alluded to it, "God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ". The glad tidings will be the measure by which God will judge those who refuse it. While we do not preach judgment, yet it is contained in what is set forth in the glad tidings. The Lord says, "If ye repent not, ye shall all perish in like manner", Luke 13:5.

R.W.S. What is the distinctive meaning of "my glad tidings"?

J.T.Jr. Paul is alluding to his own part in the divine ordering of the testimony. He was taken up for this purpose. He says "my glad tidings" because he is alluding to his own special office, I would say, his peculiar part in bringing out the fulness of the gospel.

T.E.H. Abraham, having been called out by the God of glory and getting, typically, the truth of sonship, became intimate with God and saw the panorama of judgment, because God would not hide what He was about to do.

J.T.Jr. That shows what God was taking account of in Sodom and Gomorrah, and that it is to be taken into account by us in regard to the world, for God is on His way to the judgment of it. So, as we have often noted, the two angels move on to execute the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. God talks with Abraham, so that Abraham is in full knowledge of what God is going to do. Lot is in Sodom, and is a type of a christian; yet one that has to be difficultly saved, being snatched out of the fire. The judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah was from heaven. These two cities are mentioned many times in Scripture as proof of the inevitable judgment of God.

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C.N. Does the statement that "righteousness of God is revealed therein" convey the idea that whilst God exercises His rights in mercy, He will not tolerate sin?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that the righteousness of God comes out and brings to light God's love to men. He exerts His rights in mercy instead of in judgment. That is the position today as regards the whole situation in the world. God's attitude is mercy towards the whole position.

A.R. Abraham inquires of God, "Wilt thou also cause the righteous to perish with the wicked?" Genesis 18:23.

J.T.Jr. He further says, "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?" That is what we need to keep in mind in our first reading; how judgment is seen from God's side and how the full idea of righteous judgment comes out from God. We see things, therefore, from the top.

V.C.L. While sin progresses and becomes grosser, is the glad tidings a perfect standard, from the very outset, of both mercy and judgment?

J.T.Jr. I think that the way the truth opens up in this book is the way we should be instructed in regard to it. The verses we have read allude to the terrible condition of things among men that required God to act in the way He does. So that what comes out in the presence of the great evil in the world is God's righteousness. That is, as in the midst of all these conditions. God is setting out His great thoughts, what He has in mind for men; and at the same time. He is showing what will happen to persons who remain untouched by the gospel in such conditions.

J.H.H. Paul, in writing to the Thessalonians, speaks about "our glad tidings". Then he says, "So then, brethren, stand firm, and hold fast the instructions which ye have been taught, whether by word or by our letter", 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

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J.T.Jr. The gospel, therefore, contains the full scope of what is in God's mind for man.

Ques. Why is there a penalty attached to disobeying the gospel, according to 2 Thessalonians 1:8, which says, "... in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ"?

J.T.Jr. I think that corresponds with what we have been saying. If persons do not obey, the only thing left is the penalty. The penalty is brought before us in these chapters. In chapter 2: 2 it says, "But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth upon those who do such things". And then in verses 5, 8, "... in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who shall render to each according to his works: to them who, in patient continuance of good works, seek for glory and honour and incorruptibility, life eternal. But to those that are contentious, and are disobedient to the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there shall be wrath and indignation". God is showing what is in His mind as to those who continue on certain courses. So that it says, also, in verse 3, "And thinkest thou this, O man, who judgest those that do such things, and practisest them thyself, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" He is alluding to the persons who are practising these things; that is, they are going on in them. They will not escape. So that God is revealing His mind as to persons who are practising evil.

E.T.M. In John 9:39, the Lord says, "For judgment am I come into this world, that they which see not may see, and they which see may become blind". Would that fit in with what is in mind?

J.T.Jr. That refers to what the Lord did to the blind man. It was not a question of sin, but that the works of God should be manifested in him. He was made to see, but the Pharisees said that they saw, and

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the Lord said, "your sin remains". They became blind. This corresponds to what we are saying, that if persons definitely refuse to believe, the wrath of God abides upon them: see John 3:36.

C.N. There is a verse in connection with the commission that the Lord gave His disciples in Mark 16:16: "He that believes and is baptised shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned". That was the position; both results are implied.

J.T.Jr. That confirms what has been remarked, and we are to keep these things in mind. These chapters bring out the terrible evil that existed in the world, and what was in men's hearts. So that it says, in verse 21, "... but fell into folly in their thoughts". Then in verse 28 it says, "God gave them up to a reprobate mind". That means a mind void of all moral discernment. So that what is happening to the minds of men is because of their constant and progressive evil.

C.A.M. I suppose it is instructive to realise that the epistle is written by one who has all the grandeur of the glad tidings before him as set out in the first seven verses of the epistle. A right view of all the terrible nature of men's hearts and the conditions into which the gospel is brought is only known by those who are in the blessedness and glory of the glad tidings.

J.T.Jr. The verses that we have read are to bring out, first of all, the disposition of God in the gospel, and then, along with that, His righteous judgment of evil. Paul was not ashamed of the gospel. The greatness of God's Son, and His holiness, were filling his soul. He was not ashamed of the gospel, for Christ is the subject of the glad tidings; it is the gospel of God concerning His Son. The Lord's own testimony was that he had not come into the world to judge it, but that He might save it. But then He adds: "He that rejects me and does not receive my words, has him who judges him: the word which I have spoken, that

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shall judge him in the last day", John 12:48. The gospel is to deliver us out of the world. It is to bring about a mind in us that is in accord with God's righteous judgment of conditions in the world, and in man as away from God. This comes out later in the book, in chapters 7 and 8, but here it is God's judgment pronounced, and there is no variation in His judgment.

A.R. It is "that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God", chapter 3: 19.

A.B.P. According to chapter 1: 28, unrepentant man came to the conclusion that he did not want to keep God in his thoughts, and so God deprived him of the ability to have a right judgment. The whole battleground is in the mind, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Yes; that is one thing that we should get hold of. It says that they "fell into folly in their thoughts, and their heart without understanding was darkened: professing themselves to be wise, they became fools". And then, in your reference, "According as they did not think good to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind".

A.B.P. Their deeds were the result of an attitude of mind.

A.R. There is a footnote to the word 'reprobate mind' in verse 28 which says, 'A mind void of moral discernment'. As of the assembly, we should be able to discern between what is right and what is wrong.

J.T.Jr. Exactly. Later in the book the saints are viewed as having the Spirit, and thus identify themselves with the mind of the Spirit. If we thought more of the mind of the Spirit, there would be less diversity of judgment.

A.R. David said to Abigail: "Blessed be thy discernment". She had a clear view of things. Why is it that we are not clear as to issues that arise?

J.T.Jr. These chapters in Romans, that we have been considering, would help as to causes of cloudiness or

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darkness in our minds. The mind of the Spirit is something to be arrived at and is over against the reprobate mind of chapter 1, and what we might call the Jewish, or religious mind of chapter 2. As we move on with the Spirit in the truth set out in this book, we will be the more able to judge rightly.

W.A.T. The Lord said of the Spirit, that when He should come, He would bring demonstration of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.

J.T.Jr. That came out in Peter's preaching at Pentecost; there was a demonstration of sin. It was a demonstration of their guilt to the Jews. Some were convicted, and repented, and that is what God is looking for. He is looking for repentance among men at the present time.

W.W.M. We are told that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Men professed themselves to be wise, but there was no fear of God. The fear of God in our hearts will help us to get right quickly.

A.N.W. In spite of the reprobate mind of verse 28, those wicked people know that it is the righteous judgment of God; not merely judgment, but righteous judgment; "who knowing the righteous judgment of God, that they who do such things are worthy of death, not only practise them, but have fellow delight in those who do them". Whatever reprobate minds they have, they are regarded as knowing the righteous judgment of God.

R.W.S. Is that through the conscience that God has given to every man?

J.T.Jr. It says, "their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts accusing or else excusing themselves". It works that way. The conscience according to the measure of its enlightenment witnesses to a man, whether his conduct is evil or good; it will thus accuse you, or even excuse you, if you do good.

R.W.S. Certain things are apprehended by the

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mind through things that are made, but in what we are considering it is conscience, as if God is being infinitely fair with men, affecting their consciences and surrounding them with His righteousness, but they turn against God.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that there are a number of things alluded to in that section from verse 28 down to the end of the chapter -- twenty-one things that are practised: "being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers, back-biters, hateful to God, insolent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, void of understanding, faithless, without natural affection, unmerciful". There you get an enumeration of all the workings of the human heart. If these things are not understood and judged in ourselves they will come up in our lives.

A.I. Peter links on with Paul in this matter of the judgment of God, saying, "... who shall render account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For to this end were the glad tidings preached to the dead also", 1 Peter 4:5, 6.

J.T.Jr. That is right. We shall see later, if we go on to Peter's ministry, how he fully supports Paul, and yet, at the same time, he has his own presentation of the idea of judgment.

C.F.E. What would the apostle have in mind when he said that the gospel is hid to them that are lost?

J.T.Jr. The god of this world has blinded their hearts. It is in contrast to: "the God who spoke that out of darkness light should shine who has shone in our hearts", 2 Corinthians 4:6. The light shining out of darkness is an allusion to Genesis 1; and now the light is in the gospel. There is governmental blindness on the Jew now, the veil is on their heart, 2 Corinthians 3:15. Then, further, "But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost", 2 Corinthians 4:3. It is in those

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who are lost, and the god of this world has done it in them.

E.T.M. Do we not see, in spite of all this, that grace is reigning through righteousness unto eternal life?

J.T.Jr. That fits in with the righteousness of God; that grace is on the throne. That shows how God is operating in the present economy.

J.A.P. Do we not have to begin with Romans in this subject to see "what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God", Hebrews 5:12.

J.T.Jr. Paul is our apostle and he speaks of the refusal of his glad tidings as the basis of the judgment. If we look at his ministry we get the thing in its fulness; how the judgment of God stands related to the present position.

A.B.P. Would you say that the further we get on, the more able we are to identify what we are by nature with what is set out in these chapters? The apostle Paul uses the word 'insolent' in the list you quoted from chapter 1. He says later, in regard to himself, "an insolent, overbearing man". Our experience with God helps us to see what we are and helps us to put ourselves by nature into this chapter.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. That brings up our beginnings; how we were converted, and what entered into our souls when we were converted. Therefore, our histories bring out just where we have been and how much there has been in us that is contrary to the gospel.

F.N.W. Is it in your mind, in viewing the righteous judgment of God in this objective way, that we will value it and see what it results in in a positive way, enabling us to arrive at a righteous judgment in all our matters?

J.T.Jr. That is exactly what one has in mind, because one feels that there is much in the way of divided judgment, but I am sure that all of us want to be together in divine things. That is the desire of every

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heart; but then how do we arrive at a right judgment? There is a way to arrive at it. We must begin at the top. What is God's judgment? The judgment of God must give character to every judgment in the assembly.

A.R. "For the time of having the judgment begin from the house of God is come", 1 Peter 4:17.

J.T.Jr. Judgment begins there in the sense in which God is operating in the present economy. That would be a reference to Ezekiel 9:6, where the man with the ink-horn begins with the sanctuary and then extends the judgment to the whole city.

A.R. What we arrive at in our care meetings should be in keeping with the righteous judgment of God.

J.T.Jr. We must look at things from the top.

C.N. The conscience renders every man inexcusable in chapter 2.

J.T.Jr. God is showing that there is a way to arrive at a positive end. If man has a conscience, that is in his favour, it is a link with God. God has a direct link with him through his conscience.

F.S.C. Do the twenty-one evil things mentioned in chapter 1 become a judgment in themselves? God gave them over to a reprobate mind to practise these things.

J.T.Jr. God gave them up to a reprobate mind. According to verse 21 they fell into folly, and then it says that they became fools.

A.N.W. That folly is seen in the verse referred to: "Knowing the righteous judgment of God, that they who do such things are worthy of death, not only practise them, but have fellow delight in those who do them".

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that usually, when persons sin they know it.

E.T.M. In Revelation 16:5, 7 it says, "Thou art righteous ... that thou hast judged so; ... And I heard the altar saying, Yea, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments".

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J.T.Jr. What is in mind in these chapters, is to get the view of things from the divine side and see how God looks at them. Let us also look at them in that way. The verses you quote from Revelation show that subjectively the righteous judgment of God was understood. There is a terrible condition of evil current, and we should have a judgment now of these conditions. Every mouth is stopped; and, if that is so, it means that God is going to speak, which He has done.

A.I. If we understand the judgment of God rightly, it will be a relief to us as moving through this world.

J.T.Jr. There is a great need to be impressed with what we have in chapter 2: "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, every one who judgest". That comes home to each one of us. We may judge another and do the same things ourselves. The apostle is speaking about persons who are going on in evil themselves and yet they are judging somebody else.

W.W.M. The fear of God would deliver us from that. We might be judging others and allowing the same thing in ourselves, which would prove that we are not in the fear of God in the matter. We have to bring God into these things.

J.T.Jr. Things may be covered up for years, and then God brings them to light. He will judge the secrets of men. That is going on now in the assembly. God brings things out if there is sin underneath.

A.R. And God's judgment is "according to truth"; the truth is the basis of the judgment.

J.T.Jr. That is really John's line, the truth. When we come to his ministry we will see that he speaks much about the truth. That corresponds with Paul's glad tidings.

A.T.D. It says in 2 Corinthians: "By manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God", chapter 4: 2.

J.T.Jr. That would fit in with what is in mind in

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this epistle. Romans lays a foundation in our souls so that we become practical witnesses to the gospel in what is wrought out in us.

J.A.P. It says in Hebrews 5:14, "who on account of habit ..." We are to acquire this habit of right judgment in ourselves.

J.T.Jr. The first thing, therefore, is to acquire this habit oneself. These passages allude to the working of things in man's heart. God wants us to judge ourselves. When we know our own hearts we do not trust them. We see what we are capable of and learn to judge these evil things that proceed out of the heart of man.

C.A.M. One great thing for us to realise is how much the gospel has put an end to. What we have been considering could only be set out by one who was in the glory of the glad tidings. We might think we could arrive at this truth by looking around in this world, but we could not arrive at it in that way. This is all set forth by the apostle Paul.

A.A.T. Is it not future when judgment will be carried out at the great white throne?

J.T.Jr. In chapter 2: 5 it says, "... in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God". That is, I suppose, the crisis in regard to everything. "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my glad tidings, by Jesus Christ". The great white throne will bring out how fair God is, for judgment will be from the books. There will be no mistakes.

C.N. Men are treasuring up judgment today: "According to thy hardness and impenitent heart, treasurest up to thyself wrath, in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God". While the execution of it is future it is being treasured up now.

J.T.Jr. If persons go on in sin that is so. The judgment, as a penalty, is future.

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T.E.H. The man who had been possessed of the demons in Mark 5 may illustrate one set free from the twenty-one things mentioned in Romans 1:29, 30. He had said "We are many". The Man before him would bear the judgment due to him so that he could sit at His feet clothed and in his right mind. The right mind would enable him to have a right judgment of the twenty-one things which were possibly employed in him in a full way before he was healed.

J.T.Jr. Very good; so that the man is sitting, clothed and sensible. These three things are what the gospel would bring about in us, a complete change. The man is no longer dominated by the legion, but he is quiet and restful, he is clothed and sensible. That is not a reprobate mind; he is sensible. That chapter suggests material for a local meeting. The man, the woman, and the child are secured for the testimony.

A.R. Peter must have had some sense of this when he said: "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man", Luke 5:8.

J.T.Jr. Quite. He had come to what is in mind. Later on in this book we see how we arrive at what the vessel is inwardly; we begin to see what we are and how we are constituted and what we are capable of, but this chapter brings into relief what man as such is as before God and how the gospel relieves us of the whole thing.

J.A.P. In Acts 13. Paul said to the false prophet, "O full of all deceit and all craft: son of the devil, enemy of all righteousness; wilt thou not cease perverting the right paths of the Lord? ... Then the proconsul, seeing what had happened, believed, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord", verses 10 - 12.

J.T.Jr. That would refer to God's governmental action, and it pointed to what would happen to the nation, which came about, and as already noted the veil lies on their heart. The proconsul, seeing what happened,

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believed. That was the immediate result of the governmental dealings of God. Elymas was full of all deceit and all craft.

R.W.S. The apostle Paul seems to balance things in chapter 2: 4 when he inquires, "Despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance?" While he speaks of these dreadful conditions of evil and those who despise, he then speaks of God's riches, and these are for all to enjoy.

J.T.Jr. Yes; alluding to the attitude of the person in despising the goodness of God which leads men to repentance. God's grace is seen in that He would lead us to repentance. We are not to despise His activities toward us. It is His goodness leading us to repentance.

C.H.M. In the coming dispensation evil will be judged immediately; it will not be allowed to go on; but in the present dispensation evil may be covered up for quite a while before it comes to light. Does that bring to light the long-suffering of God, or is there more in it than that?

J.T.Jr. That is an important question, because it often happens. Things run on for years before they come out and, of course, we must leave that because God brings things out in His own time, but then we are responsible. Man's responsibility enters into it as to why he has covered up the sin.

C.H.M. I wondered if there might be in it the thought of education for the assembly.

J.T.Jr. No doubt; God is going on with His own thoughts. He may allow a thing to go on in order to bring it up in His own time, but then that does not relieve the persons involved of the responsibility. What we are looking for is confessions so that matters should be rightly settled and not covered up or ignored.

C.H.M. Confession, in that way, would glorify God!

A.A.T. To whom do we confess -- to God?

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J.T.Jr. Yes, and we are told, "Confess your sins one to another"; and "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". The book of Leviticus instructs us how confession is made and what is due to God and to the assembly. There is that which governs these things, and therefore the need of being near to God and getting light so that we know how to deal with matters when they happen.

A.B.P. Would the reference to God giving them up show that there had been a period when He was exercising patience in view of their recovery? God desires to retain us and often goes on with us for a period, like He did with David when he sinned.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. And then in chapter 2 we have what people go on in, and then, like David, pronounce judgment on others: "And thinkest thou this. O man, who judgest those that do such things, and practisest them thyself, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" The man is going on in the thing and knows it, because he is judging somebody else, and yet going on in the same thing. That is what is brought out here in the most definite way. Persons may go on in a thing secretly and at the same time judge somebody else in the same matter.

E.T.M. Self-judgment is very important.

J.T.Jr. We must judge ourselves continually, and if we do not the enemy will get an advantage with us.

J.H.E. Would not the apostle Paul help us in this? He says, "I was not disobedient".

J.T.Jr. Yes; he was a religious man, a Jew. His mouth was stopped and then it is recorded that he was praying. What a change! He was brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, but now he is at the feet of Jesus. He had been breathing out threatenings and slaughter, and armed with authority from the high priest. It is the

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religious man, and that man is taken up and his mouth is stopped too.

W.A.T. The world now stands in reconciliation and God is not imputing trespasses, but the time will come when He will have to deal with men. In His mercy and grace God would give us time to come to a judgment about matters ourselves before publicly exposing us.

J.T.Jr. We need to consider what we were before conversion and what we are after conversion. Before conversion there was the working of sin in ourselves, but conversion involves that there is a complete change. So that if we confess with our mouths the Lord Jesus and believe in our hearts that God has raised Him from the dead, there is to be a life consistent with our confession. What has been referred to in David's history took place after he was converted. So that the allusion, in chapter 3, to David's psalm refers to when he had been reached in his conscience after he had sinned. It is a most solemn thing that we may sin after we are in relation with God, as David was. But he vindicated God fully in Psalm 51, and that is brought in here: "Let God be true, and every man false; according as it is written, So that thou shouldest be justified in thy words, and shouldest overcome when thou art in judgment". That quotation of David is brought forward here to bring out how true God is; His judgments are true and He overcomes in judgment. His words are words of truth and justice.

F.N.W. Paul, in Galatians, warns the spiritual to consider himself lest he also be tempted. Should that encourage us to walk softly at all times, for even a spiritual man may be subject to failure?

J.T.Jr. Exactly; especially the religious man needs to consider himself, because he might be very severe in his dealings with others, as David would have been. He wanted the offender in Nathan's parable to be dealt with at once.

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J.A.P. What do you understand by the word overcome in Romans 3:4 which you have quoted?

J.T.Jr. If we look at the psalm it will help. "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done what is evil in thy sight; that thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, be clear when thou judgest". David is speaking to God. He is saying that what has happened is against God. We need to take account of that in matters, that what happens is against God. David is taking up God's own thoughts; how God would look at his sin. But God would overcome, and He would gain David by awaking his judgment of evil. He overcomes us too, and brings us to see how He feels what we do. He helps us in this way as we confess to Him. He sets us on our feet again.

E.E.H. So that Ananias said to Saul of Tarsus: "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away", Acts 22:16.

J.T.Jr. Yes; he asked Saul why he lingered. Why do we linger from getting free from these things and from getting the application of the water and being set up in a right state again?

W.W.M. David took sides with God against himself.

J.T.Jr. That is a good way to put it.

C.A.M. I suppose your suggestion about the Jewish element is to sober us with respect to finding fault with others. The apostle was so entirely delivered from it that he spoke in far stronger language against himself than he did against any other.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; he was free; he was a son. It is the religious man that makes us cloudy about things. He does not know where he stands. The religious man will be governed largely by tradition. The Lord said as to the Pharisees that their sin remained. They said that they saw, but they were blind.

D.P. The apostle is showing that God has established

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a basis on which He will judge the heathen world and the apostate religious world.

J.T.Jr. I think that is right. I suppose that the section down to verse 16 of chapter 2 would be the gentile world, and from verse 17 onward it is the Jew. So that it would be the world with the terrible conditions of sin in unregenerate man, and then the religious side of things as set out in the Jew. Both are reviewed by God for judgment.

S.W. Would you say that Enoch's prophecy, in Jude, has a present application? It says, "Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all", verse 14.

J.T.Jr. Well, we have the understanding as to God's thoughts already in the assembly. Therefore, if we have His mind as to these things, why are we cloudy and uncertain as to what to do and what to say? Some were saying wrong things about Paul, according to our scripture. They were slandering him, saying things that he never said. So he says, "As we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just", chapter 3: 8. They were slandering the apostle.

C.N. Does chapter 2: 8 state the position clearly? "To those that are contentious, and are disobedient to the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there shall be wrath and indignation, tribulation and distress, on every soul of man that works evil, both of Jew first, and of Greek; but glory and honour and peace to every one that works good, both to Jew first and to Greek: for there is no acceptance of persons with God". Paul's gospel would put things plainly.

J.T.Jr. God is no respecter of persons.

R.T.M. What is the power in self-judgment that will save us from the influence of these natural evils to which we are subject as in the flesh?

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J.T.Jr. It is God's view of things. We should take an abstract view. That is how God sees things; and when I do that I can judge rightly. God is no respecter of persons. It is not a question of how long a person may have been in fellowship. It is a question of the issue between God and the person. God is thinking of righteousness, and of how the truth is to be worked out in us.

A.N.W. The case of the malefactor brings that out. "Dost thou too not fear God, thou that art under the same judgment? and we indeed justly, for we receive the just recompense of what we have done; but this man has done nothing amiss", Luke 23:41. Basically and simply, that man seems to set the whole thing out against himself and his fellow, and justifies God.

J.T.Jr. Just so: "This man has done nothing amiss". It is a question of whether or not the truth is governing. I suppose that the apostle is laying the basis in these chapters for getting the moral line right. Are we right, morally, as to what is going on in the world and what is going on in our flesh?

S.W. The apostle Paul speaks of dying daily. Is it a daily matter?

J.T.Jr. Yes.

E.T.M. Daniel's name involves judgment. In spite of all the evil conditions that existed in his day he was told to go his way.

J.T.Jr. He was ready to suffer, for he was bowing to the truth. He was not afraid, for he trusted God and feared Him.

W.W.M. The fear of God would help in bringing to light the flesh in everyone of us.

J.T.Jr. I am sure it would. God is having the last word about things in this section of the epistle. It is a question of what God is saying and how He is judging things, so that every mouth is to be stopped. The throat, tongue, lips and mouth are referred to here as

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in the exercise of evil. This power through man's mouth is against God, but God says that the mouth must be stopped; and I think it is intended to bring about a stoppage of wrong speaking in the believer, also, so that we learn how to speak rightly.

A.I. The passage speaks about poison being under the lips. What was under the lips of the prodigal son in the far country was, "I have sinned".

J.T.Jr. That is a very good change, because here it is asps' poison. If one changes and says, 'I have sinned', he is on the road to self-judgment.

A.R. It seemed to take Job a long time to come to Romans 3:19, but he eventually put his hand on his mouth.

J.T.Jr. Yes; he talked a long time, but he put his hand on his mouth. It says here that every mouth is to be stopped and all the world is to be under judgment to God. Man's mouth is stopped and God alone is the Speaker.

P.E. Is it important that we be able to name things? God names things very plainly in these chapters.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. So that in our conversations we need to exercise care lest there be any trace of speaking which has to be stopped. God is to be the Speaker and He brings right things into our hearts and minds.

A.B.P. Considerable damage is done by loosely guarded reports; and such reports usually gain in volume and often lose in accuracy. The apostle spoke of being slanderously spoken of, and then he uses a very strong word with respect to the slanderers: "... whose judgment is just". How severely he deals with the malice behind the false report!

J.T.Jr. That should be noticed. The apostle took account of the working of man's mouth and what is possible from it.

A.R. We are prone to base so much on mere hearsay instead of getting all the facts.

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J.T.Jr. Therefore, how important is the idea of righteous judgment! The word righteous is brought in in connection with judgment here, that there may be that idea with us, "righteous judgment".

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GOD'S GOVERNMENT IN THE EARTH

Those wheels move on with infinite accuracy, the wheels of divine government. Nothing escapes the notice of the government of God. We need have no anxiety as to the course of this world. We are sympathetic with them, we pray for them, for kings and for all men; but the government of God goes on outside of that with infinite accuracy. There is not a thing that happens under the sun without its being noticed by the eyes in the rims of the wheels. Everything will be weighed in the divine balances. Nothing that has occurred from Adam to the end of time but will be weighed with infinite discrimination, and all will be perfectly adjusted in the government of God. We do well to take notice of that.

The book of Ezekiel is written to set the hearts of the godly at rest. The awful things that are happening will come under the unerring government of God, and all will be dealt with according to the infinite knowledge and discrimination of God. I refer to that so that you may understand that in pre-occupation with Christ and the things of Christ you may be assured, at the same time, that all that goes on around us is being taken care of by God.

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JUDGMENT (2)

Romans 3:21 - 26; Romans 4:23 - 25; Matthew 27:45, 46; Luke 23:39 - 43; John 19:30 - 34

J.T.Jr. The apostle Paul, in the first chapter of his epistle to the Romans, speaks about their faith which was proclaimed in the whole world. In referring to this the apostle is alluding to what had been wrought in them, so that what he is opening up to them in the epistle is expected to be intelligible to them. The truth which opens up from verse 21 onward in chapter 3 is in regard to the mercy-seat, a figure which is taken from the Old Testament. What is said of it here is to be understood by us in connection with what has preceded. The Lord is referred to as the Mercy-seat. "Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat through faith in his blood", verse 25. We understand the truth of the mercy-seat from Old Testament scriptures -- that what is in mind is to bring out the great truth of the atonement. What comes out here is based on the judgment having already been borne by Christ. The gospels bring out this truth, which lays the basis for the mercy-seat. The verses that we have read in the gospels allude to the great transaction having been accomplished. God's judgment in regard to man has been carried out; therefore the three gospels from which we have read link up with this chapter. Mark's gospel runs along with Matthew in this connection, so that there is no need of reading from Mark. We have the forsaking in Matthew and also in Mark -- stressing the reality of the judgment of God that Christ went through. In Luke we do not get the forsaking, but we get the malefactor, who, in speaking to his fellow, refers to judgment; that is, that they were receiving the just recompense for their deeds. In John's gospel we have reference to the blood of Christ, which is not mentioned in the other gospels. Here we have the actual reference to it --

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blood and water flowing out from the side of a dead Christ. So that these scriptures refer to what is involved in Romans 3 where it speaks of redemption, the great clearance of what stood out against us. Redemption is an accomplished fact, but it is based on the actual transaction on the cross, where the judgment of God was borne. The apostle does not refer to all these things, but his mind and heart are filled with the position that is reached; that is, God coming out in Christ in this way -- the mercy-seat. It is not the judgment seat, but the mercy-seat. The two chapters bring out the results of this that are open to us; that is, that God is righteous in what He is doing and then, as being accounted righteous we are set up in a new way as justified. So that all that comes out in these chapters would help us to understand the way God has completely met every issue.

A.R. Leviticus 16 not only meets man's need but satisfies God in regard to sin.

J.T.Jr. Yes; and emphasis is laid on the mercy-seat in that chapter.

A.R. The eyes of the cherubim look down on the mercy-seat in the tabernacle system.

J.T.Jr. Now redemption has been effected. What was there in a typical sense is in actuality at the present time. What we finished with on the last occasion was that man's mouth is to be stopped and all the world under judgment to God and no flesh to be justified in His presence. God proceeds to show what He has accomplished and now the "righteousness of God ... towards all, and upon all those who believe". Believing is in mind -- those who believe. The apostle therefore is looking at the saints as having faith and able to follow him in what he is opening up as carried forward from the Old Testament. The blood was brought in and sprinkled on and before the mercy-seat; and then it was put on the horns of the altar. The type is to be

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understood by us as we consider the scriptures before us. The offering of the animals that were used as sacrifices meant that life was given up, but now the sacrifice of Christ enters into the matter. Christ has died, and the shedding of His blood is the basis for the mercy-seat in this chapter.

A.N.W. The mercy-seat was actually a part of the ark. Does John's gospel give us that upon which the mercy-seat rests in the Person of the blessed Lord? What He is personally is beyond us, and yet it lays the basis for the support of the mercy-seat.

J.T.Jr. The Person of Christ is immediately in view in this epistle. It speaks of the gospel of God concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. It is the Person that is in view -- you will notice that throughout. It is God's gospel concerning His Son. The intimate link is seen between God and His Son. The cherubim overshadowed the mercy-seat in the type. That illuminates the meaning of this chapter. The death of Christ in the four gospels coincides with what is in this chapter. The gospels coincide with Paul's gospel; so that there is perfect unity, you might say, in what is presented. Paul taking up these various positions to bring out the truth. I think we need the foundation of the judgment of things expressed in the cross laid in our souls. The gospels emphasise that. While it is not emphasised here, yet the connection is here; for example, the blood is mentioned here, and this immediately brings up His death -- the actual fact that Christ was dead. John's gospel records that the blood and water came out of the side of Christ as dead; that is, the judgment had been carried out. In the type in Leviticus 16, there was the sin-offering and also the burnt offering; that is, the will of God is carried through in the burnt offering. And the sin-offering is seen in that Christ offered Himself for sin. So that the whole will of God was carried through by Christ.

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A.R. The Lord says, "It is finished". I expect that refers to the fulfilment of God's will.

J.T.Jr. I think so and it alludes to the completion of everything which the cross involved. The Lord is viewed as giving up His life of Himself in John. He said, "It is finished; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit", John 19:30. That is, the work of atonement was carried through by Him. Then, as dead, the blood and water issue forth; so that the testimony of the gospel links up with Paul's gospel.

J.H.E. Paul says, "Where then is boasting? It has been excluded", Romans 3:27. It is excluded on the principle of faith.

J.T.Jr. One malefactor answers the other one in Luke. It is remarkable that this should come in at that point. The hanging is alluded to: "One of the malefactors who had been hanged ..." That is, they were being hanged for their deeds -- death was the penalty for sin. But one said to the other, "We indeed justly, for we receive the just recompense of what we have done". Earlier he had said, "Thou that art under the same judgment". That is, one man arrived at that thought, that they were both suffering justly. They were getting the due reward of their deeds in being hung. It seems to me that this should help us to arrive at a judgment of what was actually due to us for sin -- the judgment of God. That was our due.

A.P. We are not only to accept that the judgment was due to us, but also that the execution of the judgment has been effected.

J.T.Jr. Yes; we are to have a basis laid in our souls. The actual judgment of God has been borne by Christ and that has laid the basis for the mercy-seat. The judgment has been carried out in the death of Christ.

D.P. Would the working out of the truth in the epistles be found in perfection in the gospels?

J.T.Jr. I think the gospels give us what is foundational.

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The epistles complete the ministry in accord with the gospels. Therefore, you might say they run on together, for, in a sense, the gospels become the terminus, for the epistles while completing the ministry finally lead us back to the gospels. The gospels present the infinite work of Christ, finishing up with this wonderful work of atonement. Thus, as we have said, the judgment has been borne by Jesus.

F.N.W. Do the epistles, and especially the epistle to the Romans, give us the ground on which we stand before God, but the understanding of the life of Jesus in the gospels would establish that subjectively in our souls?

J.T.Jr. I think this epistle shows that there was faith in the saints at Rome and there is to be faith in our souls also. This is referred to in chapter 1. Therefore, if he brings up the subject of the mercy-seat, it is supposed that we know something about it. Therefore, chapter 16 of Leviticus and, of course, the whole of Scripture, should be known by us. The mercy-seat refers to the atoning work of the Lord Jesus. We should know something about what it means and how the work of atonement has been completed and the suffering endured by Jesus Himself. He has borne the judgment. He was the Sin-offering. Matthew gives us the sin-offering.

W.F.K. Does the epistle to the Romans help us in self-judgment? The apostle went into it thoroughly in chapter 7. He says, "in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell". Would that help us to come into what God would have for us in the mercy-seat?

J.T.Jr. That would follow on. Romans 7 is experience in ourselves. What we have here, as touching on the mercy-seat, is what we can only view objectively -- what has taken place in Christ. He went through this vicariously, but actually.

W.F.K. The thief realised that he received the due reward of his deeds.

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J.T.Jr. The judgment was being carried out in regard to the malefactors. The one was agreeing with that -- it was due to him. And that is what we should come to. We are not in the place of judgment; the malefactor was. He was being put to death. The actual judgment was coming upon him. His life was being taken and he arrives, in his mind, at this fact, that that judgment was right. But He says that Jesus had done nothing amiss. He came to it that there was One there who had done nothing amiss; but He was dying, too. He was being put to death. The One who had done nothing amiss was being put to death. That seems to be suggestive to me as to what our own position should be. What would we be in our hearts if we were actually dying as that thief was? What thoughts would come up in our minds if we were going through the actual penalty?

A.B.P. Bringing him into our chapter, he would endorse the expression, "the righteous judgment of God", and would seem to have some apprehension of "the redemption which is in Christ Jesus".

J.T.Jr. I would think so. It is remarkable that the minds of the malefactors could be as active as they were. No doubt God was bringing out all these great things. On the one hand, I suppose, it was compensation for Christ at that moment. This side does not enter into Matthew's presentation -- that there should be this change in circumstances. But Luke shows that there was something for Christ which God gave Him at that moment.

C.A.M. The judgment the thief was under, and which he recognised was due him, did not atone for his sins. All depended on the work of Christ beside him. In the fear of God he arrived at that fact that there was nothing for him but death as the result of his life; the judgment he bore did not save his soul. Salvation was by the work of the offering Priest. I use

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that expression because this incident occurs in Luke's account.

J.T.Jr. Yes; you mean the offering Priest is Christ. What is going on in these men is therefore very instructive to us. We can arrive at something in this way, although not being in the circumstances that they were in. So that we can reach this -- that our due is judgment and death.

F.S.C. Will the judgment seat of Christ bring all out?

J.T.Jr. The judgment seat of Christ is where everything in the believer's life comes up for review; the deeds done in the body; not in the way of penalty, but as bringing out all that these deeds were, and if we have not arrived already at the judgment seat about things it will be, I suppose, loss to us at that time.

A.R. In Leviticus 16 the priest went into the sanctuary with the blood.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. I suppose the work of redemption would be accomplished apart from anything in the malefactor. What comes out in Matthew is not connected with the malefactor's conversion, because what is being stressed, I suppose, is the fact that the judgment of God is being carried out. The wrath of God in all its fulness has come upon Christ, according to Matthew, which gives the abandonment in its awfulness: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Matthew 27:46.

J.A.P. Is that the side in Corinthians? "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us", 2 Corinthians 5:21?

J.T.Jr. That is right -- the Lord was made sin. That is what called forth the Lord's own words: "Why hast thou forsaken me?" It was because He had been made sin. So that Matthew stresses that side of the Lord's position on the cross -- that He suffered infinitely.

E.A.L. In Romans 3 we have, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". The malefactor said, "We indeed justly ..." Does he include us in

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that? He says 'we' twice. Would that be the 'all' of Romans 3?

J.T.Jr. He is referring at the moment to himself and the other malefactor, but we can identify ourselves with such a statement when we think of what we have been.

A.N.W. Is he not only thinking of the death penalty there being imposed upon him, but also of the final judgment in view? They cannot get out of that. "Dost thou too not fear God?" Has he not the final judgment in mind, but sees the answer to it in this Man who has done nothing amiss?

J.T.Jr. I think so. The feelings of a man in this position, but now having light in his soul, would bring out these expressions. He refers to the same judgment. It says, "One of the malefactors who had been hanged". That is the way these men were being put to death, and the Lord is there being put to death in the same way. There is one Man going through death who has done nothing amiss.

J.H.E. Would not this incident in Luke confirm Romans 3:26? It says, "For the showing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus". This thief proves to be of the faith of Jesus, does he not?

J.T.Jr. That is right; so he would be justified. He says, "We indeed justly, for we receive the just recompense of what we have done", that is, the just recompense was judgment. But what comes up in Romans 3 is justification. God is now just in passing by sins. He has a right to do it because Jesus has died. He has a right to set us up in justification. That is what these scriptures bring before us. God is just and the justifier of him that is of the faith of Jesus.

R.H.S. What relationship is there between judgment and guilt? I was thinking of God's judgment and the sinner bearing his own guilt.

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J.T.Jr. You mean that there is guilt attached to sin and therefore a penalty. The apostle says, "The wages of sin is death". That is the judgment -- the penalty. We get this penalty in the gospels. The penalty is borne by Christ in going into death, having been made sin; that is, He bore the guilt. All the sins, according to Leviticus 16, are put upon the goat -- the priest confesses over the goat all the sins of the people, so that Christ, in that way, takes our sins. He takes them up and bears them, and that side, I suppose, comes out in Matthew, when He says, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" He had taken up the sin question. The judgment was being carried out, and that is what should be a basis in our souls for understanding the mercy-seat and what flows out from that in Romans 3.

W.A.T. You were saying that God now has a right to justify man. Is not that what the mercy-seat really means? It is a place where God can meet man.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; it is not a judgment-seat. Pilate's judgment-seat was alluded to in prayer. It is remarkable how it comes up in Matthew. Pilate sat on the judgment-seat, and he was judging, and he judged that Jesus was a righteous Man. And in John 19 he says, "I find no fault in him". That was his judgment, but after saying He was guiltless, he allowed the sentence to be carried out against Him. But God turns the whole matter around; instead of coming out in judgment against man, He comes out in the mercy-seat. How wonderful it is -- instead of God acting judicially against man He acts in mercy. It is the mercy-seat instead of the judgment-seat.

S.M. In John 8, did He justify the woman? "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more".

J.T.Jr. He says, "Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her", and He is left alone with the woman. He alone could rightly cast the stone, for He alone was without sin. Instead, he says, "Go, and

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sin no more". God has come out in the mercy-seat in a universal way. The mercy-seat was linked up with the tabernacle system. It was limited to Israel, but God had the whole universe in mind in the tabernacle, and the mercy-seat stands in relation to the whole universe now, and no doubt alludes to what is down here. The gospel is being preached on that basis -- according to what is here. Christ is set forth as a mercy-seat. His blood is in mind; "through faith in his blood". The fact of His death should always be before us in the presentation of the glad tidings.

A.A.T. How would you distinguish between propitiation and substitution in connection with the work on the cross?

J.T.Jr. The Lord was substituting for us. He takes our place. That is substitution. But propitiation is that the mercy-seat represents God's attitude now and Christ is that, for He has glorified God in the place of sin and eternally satisfied Him as to it. Instead of asserting His rights in judgment He asserts them in mercy. He had a right to deal with all in condemnation but instead of doing that He extends mercy, and He has a right to do so because of the work of Jesus.

A.R. Paul says mercy was shown him. I suppose we can all say that.

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

J.A.P. Say a little more as to the mercy-seat being here.

J.T.Jr. I think it alludes to what is here. The gospel is being preached here by the Spirit of God sent down from heaven. It is what is here as I understand it.

S.W. It is said of the publican that he went down to his house justified rather than the Pharisee, because he said, "God be merciful to me, the sinner". Would that bring in the thought of the mercy-seat?

J.T.Jr. "God be merciful to me, the sinner". Quite so. He had some idea of what he needed, and what we

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all need -- mercy. "All have sinned". That is, the penalty attached to us. But then it goes on to say, "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus". So that these verses are based on what we have in the gospels as a testimony to the actual death of Jesus; and in John's especially for he brings in the blood of Jesus which is referred to here: "... through faith in his blood". The blood is recorded in John's gospel only. We should, I think, consider these things as they are recorded in the gospels. Matthew stresses the forsaking. The Sin-offering is seen there -- Christ actually was abandoned. The judgment of sin was complete, and in its entirety was being borne by Him. Therefore, these words which He uttered which are recorded in Matthew, and in Mark, should cause us to stand in holy reverence as we see that Christ was abandoned by God because of sin.

J.H.E. It is noteworthy that in the gospel of John it says that there came out blood and water from the side of Jesus. In the first epistle of John reference is made to the water and blood. The order is reversed.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. It is therefore a question of what phase of the truth is being considered. In John 19 it is blood and water, but the water is not referred to in Romans 3. It is not emphasised there. The blood is emphasised. It is a question of atonement. It is a question of God meeting our sins. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, and redemption is based upon the shed blood of Christ. Matthew is the one who stresses that, even in the Supper. When instituting it the Lord said, "For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins", Matthew 26:28. So that Matthew is dealing with sins, and the Lord is the Sin-bearer.

S.M. Is that what comes out in Psalm 22?

J.T.Jr. Just so. The Lord's feelings are brought

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out there. We have often noted that it is a feminine psalm; a subjective psalm; alluding to how our own feelings come out in relation to the sufferings of Christ.

J.C. Does the expression, "through faith in his blood", exclude the flesh entirely?

J.T.Jr. It does. There would be no justification apart from the blood. The blood is an object of faith, but it is His blood: "through faith in his blood". That means that Christ was actually dead; the blood flowed from a dead Christ. "Immediately there came out blood and water". The actual fact of Christ's death was the judgment had been borne.

A.R. Why is it a question of righteousness in Romans 3, whereas in Psalm 22, which is quoted in Matthew, it is a question of holiness?

J.T.Jr. I have no doubt the Lord is stressing righteousness here. It is the righteousness of God which is revealed in the gospel, according to Romans 1:1. It is one of the things revealed. There are many other things, of course, in the gospel, but the righteousness of God is revealed in it, thereby establishing God's right to deal with man in mercy. Therefore we get the truth of righteousness demonstrated in these chapters. Holiness is not stressed here, but the book begins with it, as it says, "... according to the Spirit of holiness". It is also referred to in chapter 5; the Holy Spirit, and then the believer yielding his members through righteousness unto holiness.

A.R. Psalm 22 says, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Then it says, "thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel".

J.T.Jr. That is very instructive, I am sure, because in the midst of all this terrible evil is the Holy One; the Lord Jesus. As it says, elsewhere, "neither wilt thou allow thy Holy One to see corruption". It all brings out the sufferings of Christ and the reality of His death. He was made sin, and while He did not see corruption,

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yet He felt all that was involved in death. He tasted death.

A.B.P. Is there not also a connection with Luke in Psalm 22, in: "thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel"?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; Luke therefore leads us on to the service of God. He does not stress the suffering side like Matthew and Mark. In His prayer, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", we see grace shining in the midst of all these terrible conditions. The grace of God is shining in a Man who was there in the midst of these extreme conditions.

F.N.W. What are the two parts to the day of atonement?

J.T.Jr. Leviticus 16, I think, needs to be studied by us to get the connection with the mercy-seat here. You will remember that Aaron was to take a young bullock for a sin-offering and a ram for the burnt-offering, and then the children of Israel took two goats -- one for Jehovah and one for the people, and the one goat, which is called Jehovah's, was slain. But the blood was to be sprinkled on the mercy-seat and before it. Then the other goat, on which the sins were confessed was sent away into the land of forgetfulness; that is, the sins were borne away. So that the two sides, no doubt, are opened up to us in that chapter. There is much more detail, of course, which offers much for deep thought for us as to the relation of that chapter with Romans 3 where we have the mercy-seat. It is expected that the saints, I think, should learn the meaning of the mercy-seat. At the present time God is meeting man at the mercy-seat and not in judgment.

J.A.P. Is one side of the matter seen in that the saints are living? The Lord died that we should live.

J.T.Jr. It says in chapter 4 that He was delivered for our offences, and He was raised again for our justification; that is, we are retained in the presence of God

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as justified. It is in view, I suppose, of the present order of things in the assembly; I mean that we are set up for something. If we have been justified, it is in view of something greater.

W.A.T. The mercy-seat is brought in here for the showing forth of God's righteousness; that it might be displayed in His dealing with the sinner, whereas in chapter 4 we get our justification.

J.T.Jr. God was glorified by Jesus, as the Lord says, "Now is the Son of man glorified and God is glorified in him". He glorified God through His blood, which would allude to the goat for Jehovah's lot. Then He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. The goat called Azazel went away, the sins of the people having been confessed upon it; that is, He took away our sins. God is just in passing by sins. And He justifies the believer. These two things need to be firmly in the soul -- how God can do that; that He may be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus. He has a right to assert Himself in mercy, which He does because of what Christ has done. He has turned the whole matter of the cross into the blessing of man, and therefore in the reading of these chapters and the passages in the gospels, one thought of how we should understand each viewpoint. First, in Matthew, it is abandonment; God forsaking Jesus; and then after as He yielded up His spirit the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom. That system was set aside and the true mercy-seat appeared. It is "set forth", and in Christ Jesus God has come out in mercy to men as Romans 3 clearly shows. And then in Luke, there are two persons; one having no idea of judgment at all, wanting to get out of his predicament, but the other really convicted and speaking about the "same judgment" and turning to the Lord and finding in Him his salvation and his eternal joy, which he gets that very day.

A.B.P. This is in tremendous contrast to the reprobate

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mind of chapter 1 where men fell into folly in their thoughts. That shows us the necessity for God's judgment, but what seems to be before us here is that a man accepts the necessity for the judgment, which is borne vicariously by Christ, and avails himself of the mercy-seat.

J.T.Jr. Just so; and these believers in Rome, were evidently sufficiently acquainted with the truth in the Old Testament to know what the apostle meant by the mercy-seat. God is not acting in judgment. Judgment is put off; it will come in, of course, against the ungodly, but it is put off, and in the interim God is acting in this wonderful position of Christ being the mercy-seat. It is the basis of the gospel. God is putting Christ before men as a mercy-seat. He is meeting them there; not condemning them, but justifying those who believe.

A.B.P. Do you have in mind that what happened at Calvary gives us the greatest concept of the judgment of God? If it is pending as to its execution upon lawless men, it has been witnessed to in the cross, and that helps us to repent and come to a right judgment of things in keeping with God's judgment.

J.T.Jr. That is what I thought, so that record of the time is given, from the sixth to the ninth hour. That helps us to understand how intense the judgment was. In Romans, it is the gospel of God; and God, in this chapter, sets forth Christ as the mercy-seat, and God's righteousness comes out in regard to the present dispensation. We are in that now; that order of things where God is dealing with man on the basis of mercy, not judicially. As the Lord said Himself: "For I am not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world", John 12:47. And the whole position is now carried forward in the Spirit, and the mercy-seat is here.

D.P. Do you think it is necessary that this truth be known before we can make any spiritual progress?

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J.T.Jr. I think we get help as we go on in our souls. We are constantly brought back to contemplate the cross -- the actually bearing of judgment that Christ has endured. So that in John 19, which connects with this chapter in that the blood is mentioned, the blood flows from Christ as dead. The blood and water flow from a dead Christ, and that becomes food for our souls. This great spectacle is before us, therefore, and, according to John, it is for the life of the world.

A.P-f. Would you say a word about the blood being sprinkled before and upon the mercy-seat.

J.T.Jr. God Himself is affected; His righteousness is maintained and man is retained in His presence -- and then it is seen as extending out to the whole position. It was brought out to the altar, also. So that the whole position in the tabernacle was affected by the blood.

C.A.M. Speaking again of the position of the mercy-seat. God has come out, so that the mercy-seat is in view before men. It is brought out, really, in view of all.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. Christ is being presented as having arisen from the dead and ascended, but also He is being presented as a mercy-seat, available to men. God has set Him forth in that way, through faith in His blood; and that takes you back immediately to the cross. That is, the blood denotes a dead Christ, that the actual judgment has been carried out. That becomes food for our souls, because John has living conditions in mind and if we are to live spiritually we require to eat the food that is suggested in John 6, the flesh and blood of Christ. That really became available when Christ died. In John 19, Christ actually was dead and His blood shed.

A.B.P. Does not Hebrews involve that the Lord has entered into heaven -- "not without blood". But being set forth as a Mercy-seat is in testimony here in the gospel.

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J.T.Jr. The mercy-seat was here in the tabernacle and it was seen in Peter's preaching at Pentecost. Christ was set forth as a mercy-seat. It was a question of men believing. They say, What shall we do? Peter says, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", Acts 2:38. It was a question of appropriating the mercy-seat and Christ was presented in that way.

A.R. "Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way", Hebrews 10:19. That is the way in, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Exactly. The blood of Jesus, therefore, is the basis for our going in; but here, in this chapter, it stands as having settled everything righteously. Forgiveness of sins has been established on a righteous basis.

C.A.M. It is not a case of going in in Romans 3, but of God coming out.

D.Macd. What is involved in drinking His blood as stated in John 6?

J.T.Jr. The Lord sets forth what involves life and spiritual growth: "Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood, ye have no life in yourselves", verse 53. He was alluding to His death, the fact that He was going to die, and the appropriation of that by the saints. John 19 was the actual fact that Christ was dead. When the soldiers came they found that He was dead. It was a miracle, really. The malefactors were not dead. The Lord had delivered up His spirit. He died Himself. Men could not take His life from Him according to John's presentation. He delivers up His own life -- but He is seen as a dead Christ! A marvellous thing to contemplate! The blood and water came forth from Him as dead. The blood would righteously meet every requirement

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of God's throne; and the water is that which purifies us. It is that aspect of Christ's death by which we are purified. What is presented in Romans 3, is the blood. God is establishing His righteous basis to forgive; to pass by the sins that were gone before and for the present time. God is showing forth His righteousness and nothing can dispute it.

C.A.M. The water comes in in connection with our state. We are not dealing with our state in this part of Romans.

J.T.Jr. Exactly. Therefore, what we have read in John 19, is part of the teaching we should know in connection with the mercy-seat. We had nothing to do with it at all, no more than the thief that was dying on the cross. We could do nothing for ourselves. Christ has done it all, and God is coming out to forgive us instead of condemning us.

W.A.T. The blood was sprinkled seven times, which confirms what you say.

J.T.Jr. The matter is finished. He says, It is finished. That looked on, no doubt, to His resurrection. But then the thing has been completed. The will of God had been carried out. The burnt-offering aspect has been carried out. The Lord was made sin and He carried out the will of God.

R.H.S. Hebrews 9 helps in connection with that. "For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer's ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?" verse 13.

J.T.Jr. Hebrews opens up much about the blood of Christ. It is to people who were slipping away. The truth of Christ's priesthood was opened up in the epistle to the Hebrews to people who were slipping away from the truth. Therefore, we need to examine

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Romans 3 and to get firmly into our souls what God's attitude is; what God's disposition is and how right it is, so that we will become grounded in the truth. This does not have to do with our state at all. The state of the people comes up in Hebrews. They were turning aside from the gospel and, therefore, the writer would go back over what was from the beginning to explain the meaning of the blood of Christ. But then we also get the wonderful truth that Christ offered Himself without spot to God. That was done in the gospels. Luke coincides with that. He offered Himself without spot. That, no doubt, alluded to the first three hours on the cross. He offered Himself without spot to God, but the perfect Offering became the Sin-offering so that He says, at the ninth hour, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The perfect Offering had become the Sin-offering. It was an actual matter; so in John 19, He says, It is finished. John's account specially demonstrates that His life could not be taken from Him; that is, He laid it down of Himself.

W.F.K. Where does Isaiah 53 come in?

J.T.Jr. I suppose that is more seen in the other gospels; how man oppressed Him and how His life was taken from the earth. His life was taken from Him, and the instruments were those wicked men, but then it was according to the foreknowledge of God; He delivered Him up.

W.F.K. In John He allows Himself to be taken.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; but they fell to the ground, having gone away backward; and, we might say that the Jordan was driven back, according to John's presentation.

D.P. Is the mercy-seat presented objectively in the gospel preaching, and faith in the soul apprehends that?

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is presented objectively. The gospel, of course, is very wide, and the Lord's own pattern is what we should follow, and the pattern of Peter, and the other apostles; that is, the Lord came preaching

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the kingdom, and therefore it is good to follow the patterns we get from the Lord and from those especially selected to preach, but the gospel includes all that is connected with Himself, because He died and has become the Mercy-seat, so He is the Centre of everything. We might say that the mercy-seat is the centre of the universe.

W.A.T. The cherubim have their faces opposite to one another, but toward the mercy-seat. That is the Centre.

J.T.Jr. Just so; God is satisfied with Jesus and there is complete complacency; that is, His work is finished; there is nothing to be added to it. It is complete.

J.A.P. There is an interesting note in John 19:35 to the words, "he who saw it bears witness". Both 'saw' and 'bears' express what was present to the mind of the writer. Is that your thought in the mercy-seat that it is a present matter, though it took place nearly 2000 years ago?

J.T.Jr. Well, the mercy-seat is a living Person; that is the way He is presented in the gospel.

F.N.W. "... showing forth of his righteousness in the present time".

J.T.Jr. It is the present time; therefore, it is our own time. He passed by the sins that went before. That alludes to the previous dispensation; how God was dealing with sin. The effect of the mercy-seat extended all the way back in regard to the sins that had taken place before; God was righteous in doing that because of Christ.

R.D. Would you say a word as to the blood in relation to the cup? The Lord says, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you".

J.T.Jr. You are quoting from Luke, but you will notice in Matthew that the Lord connects the cup with the remission of sins. Therefore what is in mind in

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Matthew is the Sin-offering. The question of sin is settled, and the new covenant is on that basis, and it will be so in regard to Israel. The question of sin will be the first matter settled, but when we come to Mark and Luke they do not mention sins. Mark says, "... shed for many". The blood was shed for many, but there is no allusion to sin, and Mark therefore is bringing us nearer to the assembly service; preparing us for it, but Luke gives us the direct service, because what Paul says agrees with it, and there is no allusion to sin at all: "The new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you". The point there is His love for the church, and that is the point in Corinthians, too; the Lord Jesus gave to Paul the terms of the Supper: "This cup is the new covenant in my blood".

A.N.W. It is the Person that is in mind in assembly service. "This do in remembrance of me".

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JUDGMENT (3)

Romans 5:12 - 21; Romans 6:1 - 11; Romans 7:7 - 25

J.T.Jr. It is important to take account of the note to Romans 5:12, for it shows the epistle is divided at this point. Sin is now in view as distinguished from sins. What is before us in these three chapters, in regard to our subject, is sin and death. These run together. Death is the penalty for sin, so that chapter 5 is to bring home to us the reason for death being here, and that it reigned. But now, Christ having come, grace reigns through Him, as it says, and it is through righteousness. Death is present in the world and we are to know why it is. The three chapters from which we have read give us much more than these things, but in regard to our subject, which is judgment, we may see, in them, the force of death.

A.I. What is the thought of death reigning from Adam down to Moses?

J.T.Jr. It says that it reigned even upon those who had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression; that is, death reigned because sin had come in through one man; it did not make any difference who it was, everybody in the world died because of sin having come in. All must die. That is the force of the truth beginning with verse 12. Death passed upon all men, which is a most solemn consideration, for not only did Adam sin, but all have sinned. It is a great and extensive thought.

C.A.M. One very deep meaning of the death of Christ is that He brought an end to the condition of sinful man -- a history, as far as we were concerned, that was sinful. Christ brought it to an end before God, in His vicarious death.

A.R. It says, in 2 Corinthians 5, that Christ was "made sin for us". It is not sins there, but sin. Does that bear on what you are saying?

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J.T.Jr. Well; I think it does. Romans 3 deals particularly with the question of sins; that is, the individual acts of persons, but what we have from chapter 5: 12 on does not contemplate sins, but the fact that sin is in everyone -- it is in the flesh, and as you were saying, Christ was made sin. He was made that. His flesh, of course, was infinitely holy, but He was made sin; that is, at the cross He was made what we are.

C.A.M. So that this is a different thought from the forgiveness of our sins. Man is brought to an end in death.

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is good to see that difference. It is not a question, at this point, of remission, or forgiveness, but of the actual end of the condition; that is, the death of Christ is the judicial end of the sinful condition of man.

D.P. Would the latter part of Hebrews 9 bear on what you are saying? It says there that it is the portion of man once to die, and after death the judgment.

J.T.Jr. "The portion of men once to die" would fit in here. That truth is dealt with here; all men must die. Death has passed upon all men. It does not take up the question of the judgment after death here, exactly. It says, in verse 9, that we shall be saved by Him from wrath, which is the future judgment.

A.N.W. It is rather interesting to see that the Spirit, through the apostle, should add, in verse 12, "... and thus death passed upon all men". That might not seem easy to accept, but the further statement, "... for all have sinned", brings in the sin question to justify the passing of death upon all men.

J.T.Jr. Yes; that is, all have sinned; but the principle is that sin, being in the flesh, there is a state that requires death. The penalty of death is therefore what we should consider in this chapter -- that we die because of sin.

F.H.L. So that the link with our subject is that it is a moral necessity that we stand with God in this judgment

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of the matter. Death must follow the incoming of sin.

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so; so that we begin to see, in a practical way, the working out of the meaning of death. The teaching that we get in these three chapters is, therefore, very important. In this chapter, death comes upon us because of Adam's sin. The race has been plunged into this awful condition through one man; so that we cannot help ourselves.

J.A.P. Seth, in calling his son Enosh, arrived at this.

J.T.Jr. The meaning of his name is 'mortal man'. He is subject to death.

J.A.P. In Genesis 5 they all died except Enoch.

A.N.W. The pronouncement is, "In the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die", Genesis 2:17.

T.E.H. The Lord, by the grace of God, tasted death for every thing, according to Hebrews 2. Does that relate to reconciliation?

J.T.Jr. Reconciliation in Romans 5 relates to the believer; we have been reconciled, and we have received the reconciliation. But in Colossians 1:20, "all things" are to be reconciled. But to get hold of what you have in mind, it is well to refer to Hebrews 2:9. Jesus "was made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death ... so that by the grace of God he should taste death for every thing", or, as the footnote says, "or every one". I suppose that is the infinite extent of the Lord's going into death -- that He should taste death for every thing. The Lord Jesus took part in blood and flesh "that through death he might annul him who has the might of death, that is, the devil; and might set free all those who through fear of death through the whole of their life were subject to bondage". That gives us an added link with this chapter, in that we are set free. That is what these chapters are to bring out for the believer; that he is set free and that he is reconciled and

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the reconciliation is through our Lord Jesus Christ.

A.B.P. Would you distinguish between death reigning in verse 14 and sin reigning in the power of death in verse 21?

J.T.Jr. I think both thoughts run together. Sin and death run together. The force of verse 14 is that death reigned. That is the pre-eminence of death and it has passed upon all men because of Adam's sin. And so sin has reigned in the power of death; they are both linked together; death has passed upon all men, for all have sinned.

A.B.P. I wondered if "from Adam to Moses" might be governed by death as the penalty on Adam and his race, but when the law was brought in, sin came into greater prominence by means of the law, and sin reigning in the power of death might refer more distinctly to the period from Moses on.

J.T.Jr. I think the law coming in brought out sin in a fuller way, as it says, according to chapter 7, sin became exceeding sinful.

A.B.P. The apostle said, "The commandment having come, sin revived, but I died. And the commandment, which was for life, was found ... unto death: for sin, getting a point of attack by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me", Romans 7:9 - 11.

J.T.Jr. Yes; the law coming in demonstrated in the fullest way what sin was.

A.I. Does this chapter view sin as an offence?

J.T.Jr. Well, it is more the state that is in mind; that is, sin coming into the world by one man and affecting the race. I think the footnote to verse 12 should be considered by us. It points out that the epistle divides at this point. It is not a question of sins, but the doctrine of sin from this point on -- sin in the flesh. What is really before us now is man's state, not his conduct. His conduct has been dealt with up to this point and justification has been brought in

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in chapter 4, which is amplified up to verse 11 of chapter 5, including the great thought of the Spirit; that the love of God has come into the believer's heart by the Spirit and that is the great result of man's sins being washed away. But now it treats of man. It is the same person, but it is the condition that he is in; that is, sinful flesh.

C.A.M. I think that distinction is a most important one. There is a large section of the religious world which has the idea that a man is going to be judged for what is called original sin. The thing is not according to Scripture, for persons are going to be judged for what they have done. Such error excludes the blessedness of this wonderful verse: "much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many", verse 15.

J.T.Jr. The final thought in the chapter is that grace reigns, and it reigns in regard to us in this condition of flesh and blood; for where sin abounded grace has overabounded, and by the obedience of One the many will be constituted righteous.

G.B.L. Would you say a word as to death as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11? Many had fallen asleep at Corinth.

J.T.Jr. It is death, only it is called falling asleep to bring out that the persons involved were believers. It was God's discipline.

A.N.W. The Lord makes an interesting distinction: when speaking of infants, or little children (Matthew 18:11), He says that the Son of man came to save that which is lost, but when He is speaking in regard of adults (Luke 19:10), He says that the Son of man came to seek and save that which is lost. Both are lost because of Adam's sin, though one, in one sense, is not responsible; and yet the death of Christ covers it.

J.T.Jr. The teaching of death is an important part

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of our education, and requires that we examine into what God has in mind in it. Death came in by sin, but then God is able to use death for our instruction.

F.N.W. Is the burnt-offering before us from verse 12 of chapter 5, and prior to this would it be the sin-offering?

J.T.Jr. The burnt-offering was there before the sin-offering, for Christ came to do the will of God, but Christ's obedience is stressed in the latter part of chapter 5, which would be the burnt-offering. Christ's obedience in death constitutes us righteous, in contrast to Adam's disobedience, which constitutes us all sinners and subject to death.

F.N.W. The will of God required that Jesus should go into death. He was obedient unto death and the fragrance was there as He offered up Himself without spot to God.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that, as we were saying, it is not the forgiveness of sins that is in mind from here on, but the state of the race.

A.MacD. How far do you think Abel's sacrifice would go in that respect?

J.T.Jr. We have an account of Abel's sacrifice in Hebrews 11:4: "By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained testimony of being righteous, God bearing testimony to his gifts, and by it, having died, he yet speaks". A remarkable line of thought comes in there, because the sacrifice of Abel was by death. He took account of death and presented that sacrifice and then he died; he died himself, and that through violence. There is a suggestive line of things in regard to Abel that would help us in what is before us. Abel died, and while his was actual death, his spirit was according to the Spirit of Christ, in that there is no evidence that he resisted.

A.R. It says, in chapter 6, that we have been baptised unto Christ's death. Baptism is brought in

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quickly. Does it help us to realise the importance of dying. We should all be prepared to die.

J.T.Jr. Well, it is the only means of arriving at life, and life is what is in mind over against sin and death. It is righteousness and life, and these two thoughts are over against the whole system of condemnation.

C.N. So that the Lord Jesus, having died, brings in righteousness and life, and the believer through the death of Jesus becomes righteous and comes into the system of life, over against sin and death, out of which he has passed.

J.T.Jr. I think that is the thought, and as we proceed in the instruction we shall see that, as associated with Christ in His death, we come up here, not as yet raised with Him, for that is not the point here in chapter 6. We shall be identified with Him in the likeness of His resurrection, but we are in the place where we have sinned, and in that sense in the presence of the things in which we had been living, but now in an entirely different way -- "newness of life".

C.N. So then there is no excuse for the manifestation of the works of the flesh or sin in us.

J.T.Jr. We must humbly acknowledge that we come short. We may have entered into the truth of what Christ has done for us in removing our sins, but we are slow to enter into the truth that we, ourselves, have to die. The sinful condition has to be ended morally in ourselves. That is where we are liable to come short in the things of God.

J.H.E. The apostle says, "I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. He was in the full gain of this, was he not?

J.T.Jr. Yes; it was a present thing with Paul, for he says, "I am crucified with Christ".

E.T.P. Is the fact that the apostle uses the personal

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pronoun in chapter 7 indicative that the thing must be gone through personally by each of us?

J.T.Jr. As we come to the truth in that chapter, it is the question of working it out in ourselves. It is the meaning of sin and death as it is in ourselves, but the point in chapter 5 is that we are constituted righteous through the death of Christ -- through His obedience. We come into this system of things because of Him, and He gives character to it. As Adam gave character to the whole sinful race, so the Lord Jesus now gives character to a new race which is after Himself.

C.N. So that if sin reigned in the power of death, now grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life. That is the present position for the believer.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, therefore it is grace; it is God's disposition, we might say, in regard to this present order of things in which we now have part. Grace is reigning through righteousness unto eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Eternal life is reached on that line through grace. The act of favour of God, which is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, is over against the penalty -- death as the wages of sin. So that we see these two lines, the one ending in eternal life and the other in death.

W.F.K. Do we see the judicial righteousness of God in removing sin and death by the one Man, Jesus Christ?

J.T.Jr. We have in verse 16, that the judgment was of one to condemnation, and that is our subject -- the judgment. The judgment was of one to condemnation, and that is to Adam's race and therefore we are in that. We have to understand that in Adam the judgment was of one to condemnation. That is a sweeping statement of the matter. It suggests much to think about in regard to the whole race.

T.E.H. It is remarkable that death should become an instrument to help us in the appreciation of the truth.

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Finally, both death and hades shall be cast into the lake of fire.

J.T.Jr. When God is finished with it. He will discard it. So that even death can be used of God for our blessing to bring us more fully into the truth. The end of verse 16 shows that over against the judgment there is the act of favour, and it says the act of favour is unto justification. The meaning of that word justification is 'subsisting righteousness', according to the footnote in the better translation: 'It is the accomplished subsisting righteousness answering to the one offence'. That truth is reached through the work of Christ.

A.I. Would John not help us when he says that we know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren?

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so, only, I suppose, he has in mind a sphere where death is dominant; we have passed from that sphere into life.

F.H.L. Would you say a few words in connection with death itself; the original judgment was the article of death, but is it not introduced here as the moral thought?

J.T.Jr. There is an end to life here. God did not allow man to live on when he sinned. He guarded the way to the tree of life, that they should not partake of the tree of life and live for ever. He did not allow a man to live for a thousand years. God could keep a man alive if He wanted to. But death has come in because of sin. We have to learn that death is in the world because of sin.

S.M. What would you say about the end of all flesh coming before God?

J.T.Jr. That would show the place the flood had in God's mind. It meant the removal of the whole system, and so the death of Christ, in that way as before God, removes the whole system of man. I think it is right to connect that with our scripture today.

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A.R. It is a question also of our facing dissolution now. Every one of us is carrying about a body that will die or be changed.

J.T.Jr. That is right; and the moral teaching proceeds out of that. It proceeds out of the fact that Christ has died, and that being understood, it applies to us because of sin, for He died vicariously.

A.R. We should all be prepared to die, and when we reach that, then work out our whole moral position from that point of view.

J.T.Jr. We need to face the reality of death. As a penalty, the wages of sin is death. We often use that expression in the gospel and it is right, for it is God's determination of things.

G.B.L. We may take this matter too lightly. Would you say a word as to death reigning, and then of sin reigning in the power of death?

J.T.Jr. We have spoken of that; but I suppose the reign of sin and death goes on constantly in the world. Death comes into every place; it does not matter where it is, nor who it is. The meaning of this chapter is that death is having sway. But then, in the midst of it all, we have this wonderful truth that Christ has come out of death, for death could not hold Him. The blessing lies at the end of this chapter. Grace reigns through righteousness. That is the present order of things. On the one hand, death is reigning. The cemeteries are a proof of that; on the other hand grace reigns, and our souls are brought into positive blessing through faith, by the Spirit.

C.A.M. In this part of the Scripture God is stating truths for our acceptance, that we might enter into them in our souls. But would it not be safe to say that the impression that is left upon the soul is that God is for us in the midst of all these things?

J.T.Jr. Yes, in the midst of this scene of death, grace reigns.

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W.A.T. Jehovah made Adam and his wife coats of skin. God came in and clothed them through death.

J.T.Jr. The bearing of the truth here is that it is through Christ's death. He has come through death and God can now clothe us.

C.N. So that it helps to magnify and make glorious to us the death of Jesus. Not only did He atone for our sins, but He has removed the barrier of death out of the way and has brought us into life.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that it is not a question of the blood in this section of the chapter, but of Christ's death. As you say, it is the removal of the man. Christ having been made sin vicariously.

D.P. Does our committal in baptism have a bearing on what we are now considering?

J.T.Jr. In chapter 6 the truth of baptism is brought forward, but it is based on the truth of chapter 5 which we should first get hold of in order to get clear in our minds as to the change over from Adam to Christ.

A.R. Chapter 5 brings in the new Head, does it not?

J.T.Jr. Yes, based on "the obedience of the one", I think; we were speaking about the burnt-offering and that is in mind here. It is the will of God carried out through the obedience of one Man, and it is over against the disobedience of Adam, which marks every one of us, for we are all disobedient, especially those of us who are younger. But the thing is to see that we change our man. God has judicially ended the man after the flesh and we should come to that conclusion ourselves.

J.A.P. It is interesting to see how Satan acted immediately to divert Him when the Lord Jesus said that He must be killed. Peter says, "God be favourable to thee, Lord".

Rem. Death, as we are speaking of it, becomes teaching for us, and as we learn what it means, God would bring us into life.

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J.T.Jr. That is right, it is a question of teaching. That is a good way to put it. Enoch's name means discipline, involving teaching; and that is how this chapter begins. We boast in tribulation. The teaching of death involves tribulation for us.

A.B.P. Moses, as he views the brevity of life, says, "So teach us to number our days, that we may acquire a wise heart". That fits into our subject.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; it really requires a wise heart, for the Holy Spirit is in view as in our hearts, for it says that the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which has been given to us. Grace is on the throne and it is reigning in regard to all our tribulation. We need grace and we get it from the throne of grace.

A.R. In chapter 6 it says that they obeyed from the heart the form of teaching delivered unto them.

J.T.Jr. Yes; they were beginning to correspond to Christ's place here in obedience.

T.E.H. Prior to that verse in chapter 6 the Romans were said to be bondmen of sin, and then there is the "form of teaching", as though we need teaching when it comes to the matter of life and grace and favour.

J.T.Jr. That is just the point; we need to be taught.

A.N.W. Chapter 6: 3 says, "Are you ignorant that we, as many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death?" He asks this of those who had died to sin and he is raising the question for all of us. I thought the teaching comes in in that connection.

J.T.Jr. I think the reference to teaching is important because we may think that we need very little. It is remarkable how casual we are about these things.

F.N.W. Is it a result of the teaching, that the order of man set out in "the one Jesus Christ" becomes attractive to us, and we are helped to accept the judgment of death on the first man?

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J.T.Jr. You will come to see that you are of His order. We are of His order, not in an absolute sense, for that awaits the actual change of our bodies. But we are of His order for we are constituted righteous. Our weakness comes out in that we fail so much, but it is well to keep the truth before us.

A.B.P. Death being a very sobering matter to contemplate, the Spirit seems to bring in the glory in the wilderness to attract us. After the acceptance of death in verse 4, the glory is brought in, "that, even as Christ was raised up from among the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in newness of life". It is the attractive side of the position, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Quite so. We are not raised with Christ here, but we are to walk in newness of life, because it has in mind that the believer is still here in the presence of sin in its various features in the world system. We are here now in a different way and our desire is to be done with sin.

D.P. The gospel brings the glad tidings to us, that God has dealt with the sin question and, in the death of Christ has set the first man aside. But do you not think that the counterpart of this should be in ourselves, and that the Spirit would maintain us in that judgment now?

J.T.Jr. I am sure that is so. But we need this light in our souls to work the matter out. Grace is reigning in view of our present circumstances. It is in view of a people that is left here in the presence of the power of the devil; grace is available to meet every matter that comes up, and that is what these chapters teach us.

S.M. It says, "where sin abounded, grace has overabounded".

J.T.Jr. Grace is over against the judgment and the darkness that is on unbelievers. This world has many that are going on to death and darkness, for sin is reigning, but over against that we have grace which,

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for the believer, reigns through righteousness unto eternal life.

A.R. In chapter 5: 17 it speaks of "the abundance of grace".

J.T.Jr. That gives us a sense of the wealth of christianity.

A.N.W. It is not merely the regaining of what has been lost. Milton's 'Paradise Regained' is not sufficient. It is far more than what was lost through Adam's sin. There is the one offence towards all men to condemnation, but then the one righteousness towards all men for justification of life, which is a very large term. Then also there is the free gift of righteousness, reigning in life by the one Jesus Christ. Those words "much rather", in verse 17, are indicative of the much more that has been gained than was lost.

J.T.Jr. Therefore, if we get a clear view of the gain of the system of grace over against the loss of the system of judgment, it will greatly help us.

E.A.L. Is it the truth of God's faithfulness to men?

J.T.Jr. Well, death having come in. God uses it -- you might say that He rolls it in upon us in order to teach us.

T.E.H. In preaching the gospel we may be imbued with the desire that souls should be convicted and have their sins forgiven. But God, having sent His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, and having condemned all that we are as in the flesh, we should be able to go further than forgiveness of sins.

J.T.Jr. We should have the idea of the completeness of the gospel preaching. We should have complete thoughts. The Spirit of God would help us to be full in the presentation of things, so that what we say would help us to arrive at something positive in the preaching. The presentation of the glad tidings should cause us to arrive at complete thoughts.

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A.MacD. Philip's preaching to the eunuch helped him to see the need for baptism.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, in that sense it was a full preaching. That shows, I think, how to present things in such wise that a given point is reached, so that people go on their way rejoicing.

C.F.E. Although death is brought in for our help. God does not leave us there; He has brought in life, has He not?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; if we just had death to look forward to how dismal we would be!

W.A.T. Would you say more of what is in mind in regard to the completeness of the gospel?

J.T.Jr. Well, I think what has been referred to implies that the Spirit of God would bring us on to the full thought of what is in God's mind, even in the short space of time in our preachings. It involves that we preach not only that sins are put away, but that the man that sinned has been put away also. It involves baptism.

F.S.C. Is it not beautiful to see that the glory of the Father is brought in here in relation to the glad tidings?

J.T.Jr. Yes, it is a great encouragement. So that death is our way out. We learn to take on death as something that is in God's hands to instruct us, and it is a means to bring us to Christ; whether the actual article of death, or its moral aspect, it brings us to Christ. Grace reigns "through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Eternal life is the terminus on that line. At the Supper we experience the reality of this; that is, an order of things where death has no sway.

D.P. Would 1 Corinthians 15:3 be a full gospel? "Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures".

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J.T.Jr. Quite so, and then the appearings of the Lord to Cephas; the twelve; the five hundred; to James; and then to all the apostles, and finally to Paul. He appeared to them during the forty days, and we know to Paul after He ascended. Also, Peter's preaching brought out that the Lord had ascended into heaven. His was a full presentation, too.

A.B.P. Israel's crossing of the Red Sea brought them into the wilderness through the acceptance of death. Then, when the manna was given the glory was seen as the people looked toward the wilderness. Is that not suggested here? There is baptism unto Christ's death and then the glory of the Father.

J.T.Jr. The type of the Red Sea would fit in here. It was a barrier on their way out of Egypt, but God made a way through and then the waters came back again. God uses death in that two-fold way; first for our going out of the world, and then to keep us from going back into it. It should be a help to our younger brethren, especially, to see that the death of Christ affords a barrier to keep us from going back into the world.

A.E.W. The teaching of the serpent to Eve was to disregard death. He said, "Ye will not certainly die". But teaching according to God would enable us to judge everything rightly, through accepting death.

J.T.Jr. Yes; and now death is in the Lord's hand and He uses it to protect us. "As many as have been baptised unto Christ Jesus, have been baptised unto his death". We become identified with Him in the likeness of His death. And the truth of this needs to be learned and the Lord is teaching us and we begin to see that death becomes a lesson-book for us.

A.R. It says that both Philip and the eunuch went down together into the water. The convert and the preacher both went down into the water. Is that important as an example to those who preach?

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J.T.Jr. Well, I am sure we need instruction in regard to preaching, that the gospel be rightly preached, as the apostle says, Woe is me if I preach not the gospel. He meant that the full thoughts of God should come out in what is said.

B.T. Would what the Lord says in John 6 apply here? It says, "He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood dwells in me and I in him", verse 56.

J.T.Jr. It is a question of food in that passage, and we need to see where that would come in. It is food for eternal life. He also speaks of Himself as the "bread of God" coming down out of heaven to give life to the world. It is a question of the kind of food that brings in life. I suppose it has in mind that we are to appropriate the death of Christ.

C.N. Would it be right to say that Romans 5 is the Red Sea and chapter 6 would include the Jordan?

J.T.Jr. I do not know that we can go as far as the Jordan in this chapter.

A.N.W. We have to wait for Colossians for that.

J.T.Jr. I think the teaching is that Christ is completely and absolutely out of death. "For in that he has died, he has died to sin once for all; but in that he lives, he lives to God", verse 10. He is entirely out of death. We are here in the same bodies in which we sinned, but we are to walk in newness of life.

W.A.T. Chapter 6 is a chapter of deliverance; our old man has been crucified and we are no longer to serve sin.

J.T.Jr. It is persons who are in the same flesh and blood condition, and in the sphere where the sin is, but they are not answering to it.

T.N.W. Would the type of the brazen serpent be a picture for us of this section?

J.T.Jr. That would be seen in chapter 8.

A.B.P. Is not "newness of life" displayed in the wilderness? And is not the Red Sea a type of Christ

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having died to sin? And we are identified with that through baptism in this chapter?

J.T.Jr. That is what I thought. The death of Christ is typified in the Jordan also, but the teaching here, I think, is the Red Sea. It is Christ as having died to sin. Of course, He never had anything to do with it in Himself, but He was made sin for us at the cross. And He was here in flesh and blood conditions, but now He is absolutely out of these conditions. He is in heaven.

C.A.M. We really have to go on to chapter 8 to come to the end of the wilderness journey.

J.T.Jr. Chapter 6 is where the sin system is still in operation, but the believer is delivered from it through baptism. It refers to our everyday life where the power of sin is; where the whole sin system is in vogue. Christ is out of that absolutely -- but we are not out of it absolutely. We are out of it through faith, and living here in newness of life. The believer is thus able to take up his life down here and live in a new way -- no longer a sinner but living as an obedient person.

J.C. "Neither yield your members instruments of unrighteousness to sin", verse 13.

J.T.Jr. The question is, therefore, what are we doing? What are we doing with our members? Are we walking in newness of life before God or are we going on in sin?

A.R. Does Caleb, in the wilderness, suggest a man walking in newness of life? God says of him, after he came back from spying out the land, that he was a man of another spirit. Does that suggest newness of life?

J.T.Jr. He demonstrated that all the way through the wilderness. He and Joshua were the only ones from twenty years old and upwards who left Egypt and got into the land.

T.E.H. The people are said to have been baptised

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unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. Would the cloud protect us from going back into the system where sin reigns?

J.T.Jr. The cloud afforded them protection as it went from before them and stood behind them as they went through the sea. Going through the sea was an actual experience, but the cloud was objective, it is what they looked at. Then the cloud rested on the tabernacle and when it lifted they journeyed and when it rested they encamped. The cloud would represent how God leads His people, and it would be through ministry that we are led.

J.A.P. Why is it 'buried' with him in baptism?

J.T.Jr. It is completion of the matter. "Buried therefore with him". The 'with' is that we are with Him in it. It is the final thing. We have quoted from 1 Corinthians 15, how that Christ was buried. The matter ends there; the old man is finished there. It says, "our old man has been crucified with him, that the body of sin might be annulled". It is the body of sin that is annulled here; that is, the whole sin system in man is annulled through death, that we should no longer serve sin. Burial is the end of it.

C.N. So in chapter 6: 18 it says, "Now, having got your freedom from sin, ye have become bondmen to righteousness". And then, the exhortation in verse 19: "For even as ye have yielded your members in bondage to uncleanness and to lawlessness unto lawlessness, so now yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness".

J.T.Jr. It is a wonderful end in view on this line, because the service of God depends on it. If we are to have fruit it is on this line. It says, "yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness", and, in verse 22, "ye have your fruit unto holiness". We have fruit; the fruit is for us in this chapter. Each believer gets fruit for himself. In the next chapter it is fruit to God.

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Instead of a world under judgment and the whole system of things here from which God is getting nothing and with which He has to deal judicially ere long. He has a people who are moving on this line. He has a people who come up on the first day of the week having something to offer Him.

Rem. It is "fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life".

J.T.Jr. You have the idea of a terminus in this chapter. "The wages of sin is death", that refers to the whole sin position down here. If you are on that line, the end of it is death. But over against that we have, "the act of favour of God, eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

A.B.P. Would eternal life, the end in view, be the land of promise?

J.T.Jr. I think so. Eternal life is viewed objectively here. It is something you arrive at through a certain process.

A.N.W. Do we know enough about being bondmen to God? Fruit unto holiness is acquired by being bondmen to God. "Having got your freedom from sin, and having become bondmen to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life", verse 22.

J.T.Jr. I am sure that the experimental side in chapter 6 is what the Lord would help us in now.

F.H.L. It follows the thought of being dead to sin and alive to God. That climaxed a great deal of what you have been saying.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. Christ is outside of the sphere of sin, having died to sin. He lives to God. You might say that we progress on that line. Christ is living to God, and we want to do that. But we want to live to God down here where He has left us. He could take us up to heaven, but instead of that He leaves us here to prove how we can be superior to sin.

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J.A.P. Joshua and Caleb had the fruits of the land in the wilderness.

J.T.Jr. That was what they brought back. It was a testimony to what was there and perhaps it links on, in a way, with what we are saying because it is like the knowledge we have of where Christ is. We begin to see where He is, and that He lives to God. He is a great attraction to us as thus we begin to live to God in Him.

W.A.T. "Yield your members in bondage to righteousness unto holiness". That is a specific action; something that we have to do.

J.T.Jr. He is alive from among the dead. And death, in that way, brings about a result in the saints. We begin to see people who are alive from among the things in the world. We begin to see people who have freedom from that order of things and have begun to live.

A.I. Have you in mind that Christ is in heaven and chapter 6 is aiming at moral correspondence with Him here?

J.T.Jr. We are down here. He has been raised up by the glory of the Father, but the teaching does not go further than our position down here where the responsibilities are.

E.T.P. Does Noah's burnt-offering after the flood bring in what is to be for God on the other side of death?

J.T.Jr. I suppose it was intelligence in Noah that led him to take up public worship. The flesh was the same after the flood as it was before. The flood had not changed the flesh. And so our flesh is the same. It is a question of the truth working in us to enable us to walk in newness of life. It is the same condition of flesh and blood in which we sinned, in which we are now to serve God.

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JUDGMENT (4)

Romans 7:1 - 25; Romans 8:1 - 3

J.T.Jr. Romans 7 is an outstanding chapter in Scripture and one to which we constantly refer. No doubt it has been so throughout the period of Christianity. It is a well-known scripture, but it may be true that few of us have come through it in actual experience. From verse 7 what goes on inside of the Christian is alluded to. Sin and death have been before us in chapters 5 and 6, as having dominion and reigning; death being the wages of sin. Now it is a question of sin in persons as an operative principle and working death by the commandment.

A.R. Does Romans 7 bring out that we are carrying about with us a dead body? Paul says, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death?"

J.T.Jr. It is the experience of the one speaking, and he comes to that judgment. Our subject is judgment. This chapter shows how we arrive at decisions through experience. It is not through teaching here, but through experience. It says, in chapter 6, that they had obeyed from the heart the form of teaching. That alludes to the doctrine. But this chapter, from verse 7, is taken up with what is going on inside persons. It is not a question, therefore, of doctrine, but of decisions reached through a process. The doctrine must be known, but this, in itself, will not bring about deliverance.

A.R. We discover what is going on in us?

J.T.Jr. In one sense it is going on all the time. It is an inward matter, and as remarked before, it is a question of how many of us are out of the mixed conditions that are referred to from verse 7 onward.

J.A.P. Do we go through this experience before we get the Spirit, or afterwards?

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J.T.Jr. Neither Christ nor the Spirit are mentioned from verse 7 to verse 24, but no doubt most go through it after receiving the Spirit, and yet He is not viewed as active in the believer until chapter 8. In chapter 5 He is viewed as on God's side, shedding His love abroad in our hearts. We need to get through the dark experience of this chapter and it requires power to do it. It has been likened to a dark tunnel at the end of which there is light, and that light is Christ, so that the end of the chapter says, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". Deliverance is through Him, but it is arrived at inwardly. It is a question, therefore, of the experience that the brethren have had, and what they can say as to this chapter.

C.A.M. Verse 5 says, "For when we were in the flesh ...". As you were saying, it is a constant matter; yet, we are enabled by divine power to take account of things as past, as far as what is characteristic of the christian as in the flesh is concerned.

J.T.Jr. The first six verses allude to the matter in an objective way. The figure of the marital bond between man and woman is used to illustrate how the law had power over us, but that this power has been broken by the death of Christ. The woman was bound by law to her husband as long as he lived; but if the husband should die she is clear from the law of her husband. And then, "So that, my brethren, ye also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions of sins, which were by the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit to death; but now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit". The matter is finished. We are no longer held in bondage, but we are to be to another. The remainder of the

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chapter involves what goes on in the believer until he identifies himself with the Spirit.

C.A.M. I suppose it would be right to say that what is characteristic of a christian is set out in the first six verses. You draw attention to a division in the chapter at verse 7. From that point on we have this remarkable experience in order to reach the position of having the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Yes, so that it is like 1 Corinthians 5"according as ye are unleavened". They were regarded as unleavened, and yet he exhorts them to "purge out the old leaven". So that what we have here corresponds in that way. It should be characteristic of us that we are bearing fruit to God and serving in newness of spirit. But the actual inward condition is elaborated on, and given in great detail. We have, thus, the actual experience of the person who discovers that, while he wants to do what is right, he does not have power to do it.

C.A.M. Rebecca knew something of these inward exercises, for there were two different elements working in her and she needed divine help in order to understand what was taking place. Esau and Jacob struggled within her. There were these two active principles, in type, I suppose, and she turned to God about it, and she got the divine answer.

W.W.M. Would you say that the point here is 'sin', not 'sins'; it is not the things which we have done that are in prominence but what we are. David, in Psalm 51, said, "in sin did my mother conceive me"; he understood what he was.

J.T.Jr. I think that is a good distinction. It is sin in the flesh. What has been remarked about Rebecca's exercise as to the struggle is helpful in regard to what is before us. It is what goes on in persons. This chapter is a landmark in christian experience, and it is alluded to by the saints continually. The struggle goes

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on in some and they are overcome by the lust in them and the devil gets an advantage. The young people need to be watched and protected. Prayer is our resource in this matter to deliver us from the evil workings of the flesh.

W.A.T. Would you say that the experience that the Israelites had to go through in the wilderness, culminating in the serpent being lifted up, is on this line?

J.T.Jr. I think that would correspond. The waywardness of the children of Israel, particularly their history of murmuring and rebellion, reached a climax at the brazen serpent. They had murmured, but they got deliverance through looking. They looked and lived. I suppose the poison that came into the system of man through the serpent is sin in the flesh. The remedy was there, typically, in Numbers 21, in the brazen serpent, but in chapter 24 the people began to commit fornication. Instead of looking to the Lord, many, to their sorrow and shame, have followed their lust and fallen into sin, and brought reproach on the Lord's name, and the testimony.

A.I. Do you think divine teaching would help us in this inward experience?

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is a question of how the thing is met inwardly and how we get through. How many of us get through and are really out of this body of death with all the marks of sin gone? It involves the complete deliverance from the man after the flesh. "Now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held". That means that what was holding us is broken. "Therefore, we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter". I think newness of spirit involves what is seen in the persons in a characteristic way.

W.F.K. The energy seen in the princes digging denoted the progress that had been made. In like

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manner we should empty ourselves and make room for the Spirit and thus progress would be manifest.

J.T.Jr. The thought of progress is a good one to bring up. Why are we slow to make progress? The flesh is the same as it was before we were converted. The flesh in the children of Israel was the same as the Egyptian flesh. There is no difference, for all have sinned, and what came out in them in the wilderness, therefore, was the fruit of the flesh. So that Romans 7 is what the flesh is; sin in us is active through the flesh. The flesh is against God and we are to come to that judgment of it. Life is in mind in Numbers 21, and it is so here. As Christ becomes our object we begin to live.

G.P. How do you view 1 John 5:18 in the light of Romans 7? It reads, "We know that every one begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself".

J.T.Jr. That refers to another line of truth, but it must run with this; that is, that he that is born of God does not sin. How does that agree with what is stated, "the sin that dwells in me"? It is the condition we are in in flesh and blood that is alluded to in Romans 7:18, whereas the quotation from 1 John refers to the work of God in us, which cannot sin, because it is of God. It is needful for us to hold on to this side of the truth and at the same time to soberly understand that sin is in our flesh.

W.F.K. Were both sin and the flesh dealt with at the cross? Is that the meaning of the serpent lifted up?

J.T.Jr. Chapter 8 brings out that the Lord Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, and that is the whole point in the serpent being lifted up. The Lord came in the likeness of sinful flesh. His flesh was not like ours; there was no sin in it; it was holy. "The Word became flesh". God was manifest in the flesh. The meaning of the serpent being lifted up is

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that Christ has come in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin and has been made sin. God condemned sin in the flesh in Christ lifted up. He was made sin; that is, in His flesh He took on vicariously what we are constitutionally. Sin in the flesh is in us constitutionally.

D.P. Would Leviticus 12 bear on Romans 7? I refer to the prolonged uncleanness which followed childbirth.

J.T.Jr. That chapter refers to the corrupt nature of man, birth bringing about uncleanness, the female requiring double the time of the male for cleansing. This would suggest that subjective cleansing requires a longer time than the objective apprehension of it. Romans 7 requires time to work out, but we should not remain there. We should arrive at the point of being clear of the operative principle of sin. We need to be cleansed from every pollution of flesh and spirit and to perfect holiness in God's fear.

C.A.M. Is it right to say that we are being educated in the use of our minds in this scripture?

J.T.Jr. The great need is that we should be able to control our minds rather than having our minds control us.

C.A.M. So that the subject of judgment, which we are considering, would include the ability of our minds to judge according to the truth of this chapter.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; therefore the apostle comes to the law which, of course, would bring in the mind to understand what is in the law. The believer comes to the conclusion that the law is holy, and just, and good. But what did it bring? The commandment, which should have brought about life, brought about death to me. Instead of bringing me into life, it brought me into death, because sin, by it, found a point of attack. It is a question, therefore, of the devil getting in. He is not mentioned in this chapter, but it is the operation of the devil that brings about the point of attack. So

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that, in verse 10, "the commandment, which was for life, was found, as to me, itself to be unto death: for sin, getting a point of attack by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me". The commandment was for life, but I was slain because of lust. That is the point that is brought out here. That part of the law which says, "Thou shalt not lust" is referred to. It is an impossible thing for us, in our natural condition, not to lust.

F.H.L. The mind of the flesh is death.

J.T.Jr. The mind, therefore, identifying itself with the flesh, leads to death.

A.R. I suppose we all have to face the fact that we lust. Lust is working in our members.

J.T.Jr. So the apostle comes to the point that he was deceived. He was brought up under the law. He thought he was keeping the law: "as to righteousness which is in the law, found blameless". But he tells us here that he was deceived by sin, because when he came to this commandment he could not keep it. It was impossible for him to keep it. So that he was slain because he could not keep the law -- and that is what we need to reach -- the point of view of the apostle as he arrives at this commandment which says, "Thou shalt not lust". The younger brethren, especially, should be concerned about the working of lust. One great range of the devil's power is in lust.

A.R. So that not one of us can keep the law.

J.T.Jr. Not on this line, but the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but according to the Spirit.

J.A.P. James says that everyone of us is tempted, drawn away and enticed by his own lust, then lust having conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin fully completed brings forth death.

J.T.Jr. That is what happened here; that is, lust brought forth death. He was overcome. The point,

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therefore, for us, is what goes on in our souls now; what is our experience in regard to these things? It brings out where we are in regard to the truth; how far we have become clear as to what is going on in the flesh.

A.I. The apostle speaks in Galatians of the flesh warring against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. Does that compare with what we are considering here?

J.T.Jr. Warfare is in mind there. The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. The Spirit is against the flesh. That is involved in the truth arrived at in chapter 8. The Spirit has come in on our side against the flesh, thus giving us power over it. But in Galatians 5:17 the flesh is rising up at all times and in all matters to keep us in bondage.

E.A.L. The Lord said, in the prayer He taught His disciples, "lead us not into temptation". Would that be the right attitude of mind if we are to overcome?

J.T.Jr. Yes; prayer is essential if we are to be preserved. The Lord said, "pray that ye enter not into temptation", Luke 22:46. David says, "Preserve me, O God, for I trust in thee", Psalm 16:1. How are we to get through, without bringing God in? We cannot overcome the flesh through our own power. It is by bringing God in that we get through.

E.A.L. In Matthew 4, when the Lord was tempted of the devil, the enemy was referred to as 'the tempter'.

J.T.Jr. Yes, he is called the devil throughout, except in the last temptation, where the Lord says, "Get thee away. Satan", and I think the point is that it is a question of evil. The title devil alludes to evil; and the devil is bent on bringing us into evil. He will lead us into it, tempting us and overpowering us. The Lord, in that chapter, showed that the devil had nothing in Him. He was alone with the devil, but the devil had

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nothing in Him at all. He met him with the word of God.

G.P. Joseph, in Potiphar's house, had a judgment of the evil with which Potiphar's wife tempted him.

J.T.Jr. That is a good scripture to bring in. It shows young people how to get the victory. We cannot stand against the temptation in our own strength. The devil is in it.

D.P. He says, "how should I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?"

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the devil was operating through the woman there, and that is what comes out in Proverbs in the strange woman, who is typical of the seductive system in the world, the theatres and cinemas and the like, through which the devil has such power. The devil was operating through the woman against Joseph to overpower him through lust. And Joseph fled, which is what each of us needs to do when tempted.

W.W.M. The brazen serpent has been mentioned. The children of Israel were to look. The apostle says, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord". He was looking at the Lord Jesus as having taken his place under judgment and bringing to an end the man that lusts.

J.T.Jr. Yes; each one of us has to feel the serpent's bite. The operation of lust leaves an effect -- the bite. But, as delivered, we need to be kept. We need to bring God in. We get control of our minds. There is power on our side to keep us occupied with right things.

W.A.T. The Israelites were to look on the brazen serpent, lifted up, for relief. For us it is in the death of Christ, so that we can be set free from this principle of sin in the flesh.

J.T.Jr. That is what comes out in chapter 8. What is before us in this meeting is to arrive at that objective. We are to reach it that we are out of the body of death

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but to realise at the same time that this principle of lust is an operative one in our flesh and requires to be kept under control. As emptied out in Romans 7, we are ready to be filled with the Spirit in chapter 8. So that it is a question of what is going on in our minds. What principle is working? The working of lust is the dominating feature in the natural man, I would say.

A.B.P. Did the apostle Paul experience the reality of Romans 7 in those three days in which he was blind and shut up to himself? Would the hatefulness of what he was tend to overwhelm him? And, in that sense, while the experience of Romans 7 is such a distressing one, it is wholesome and necessary for the believer to go through if he is to be really delivered.

J.T.Jr. Exactly, it is like Sihon and Og. If you do not overcome them, you are under their control. These features will come up in you. They will come up in the brethren. Sihon and Og represent the selfish "I" and the big "I" which is so self-complacent and self-contained. Very few get by these two mysterious persons.

C.F.E. Romans 13:14 says, "put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not take forethought for the flesh to fulfil its lusts". Would that bear on this chapter?

J.T.Jr. It is a question there of the armour for the believer. It is the armour of light in the midst of the darkness of the world. We need it to get through all this sphere when the devil is operating, for, in a large measure, we have to do with the sphere of the devil's operations, and he has made such inroads through lust. It is the main line that he uses in men and he has had success on this line, sorrowful as it is to admit it, in some localities of the saints.

E.McK. John, in his first letter, warns the young men concerning the lust of the flesh.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, he speaks of all that is in the world being the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes,

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and the pride of life. These are in the world. It is the sphere where the devil is, and he uses these things to overcome men. What has been remarked as to Joseph is very instructive, because the effort to overwhelm him was so persistent. Potiphar's wife was determined to have Joseph, using every effort to persuade him. So that the spirit of our chapter was worked out in Joseph. He knew what to do. His mind was pure and his conduct irreproachable. He finally fled from her. He wanted to do what was right; and when we want to do what is right, we are making headway in Romans 7. But some may not have reached that far as yet.

C.A.M. Joseph is particularly interesting in that regard as showing how he met the overtures of the devil through the woman. He had been entrusted with something by his master and he would not betray that trust.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; what was in his mind was the trust that was committed to him. He says, "Behold, my master takes cognisance of nothing with me: what is in the house, and all that he has, he has given into my hand. There is none greater in this house than I; neither has he withheld anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife; and how should I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:8. This showed the great interest he had in his master's business, and how faithful he was in it. How revolting it was to him to sin against his master and against God! The principle set out in Joseph helps us in this chapter.

A.B.P. Would he be mindful of the word of God? Psalm 105 says, "the word of Jehovah tried him". Was his attitude regulated by the word that had come to him through his dreams?

J.T.Jr. Quite so. I am sure that is helpful. He was dominated by the light he had from God. So that Pharaoh said of him, "a man in whom the Spirit of God is". That is the kind of man that goes through. He was not overthrown.

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A.P-f. Is it of importance to see that all sin is against God? David said, "Against thee, thee only, have I sinned". And Joseph speaks about sinning against God.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; David was overcome by lust, but Joseph was not. David was given great trust, too, with the kingdom. But through his failure the greatness of God's testimony was marred, which is a most solemn thing, and a most humbling thing. Nathan said, "Thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of Jehovah to blaspheme", 2 Samuel 12:14.

C.McL. Would you say that typically Joseph was walking in the Spirit? "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall no way fulfil flesh's lust", Galatians 5:16.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, he had judged what was right and wrong. The man in our chapter judges what is right and wrong, too, and he wants to do what is right. I am progressing when I say that I want to do what is right. But when I find an opposite principle working in me I conclude that it is not the new 'I' at all; it is sin in my flesh.

W.W.M. That is where David failed in contrast to Joseph. Evidently David had allowed his mind to get out of control, whereas Joseph's mind was clear. Scripture says that the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.

J.T.Jr. Yes. The mind of the flesh is death. That was the result of David's sin with Bathsheba; the child died. It was the government of God. We may not know everything about one another, but God knows what is going on in our lives and moral death will be the result where a course of sin has been pursued.

E.A.L. Would God, in mercy, affect David's conscience through the death of the child?

J.T.Jr. I think David had been convicted before the child died. Death had to be gone through; it was the governmental side, and it had to be gone through.

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He had been reached through the prophetic word; he had been convicted of what he had done. And that is really the thought in our meetings for ministry, that God brings in something to convict us and we reach the end in self-judgment. We should be as David. He went through the matter, and judged himself before God about the whole matter.

J.A.P. It is said, in James, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for, having been proved, he shall receive the crown of life, which He has promised to them that love him", chapter 1: 12. Joseph proved that.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, the crown of life, therefore, is the end of that line. We have the crown of righteousness also, but the crown of life lies at the end of a life that has withstood temptation. It alludes to what your life has been; what kind of a life you have lived. So the point here is that we are married to another; we are to be to Christ. Are we going to allow anything to interfere with that? Are we going to be true? Joseph was true to God, and to his master.

W.A.T. Joseph has the interest of his master at heart, but, on the contrary, David stayed at home at the time of conflict. We are safer when we are actively engaged in the Lord's things. None of us can afford to have time on our hands.

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so; Joseph's mind was active in what was right, in the house where the temptation was.

A.B.P. Does not the fleeing fit in with our present position? In 2 Timothy 2 we are exhorted to flee youthful lusts. Our position is one of outward reproach, really; we should not be afraid to flee.

J.T.Jr. Well, I am sure that is right. We are to pray that we be not led into temptation. The Lord, in Matthew 4, was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil. It is not that we seek out the temptation; the Lord did not seek it out.

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In Mark he was driven into the wilderness, and in Luke He was led in the wilderness. The Lord would not seek it out. Neither should we seek to come into circumstances where the devil can overpower us. It should be our prayer that we be kept out of places and circumstances where it would be an advantage for the devil to get at us.

A.R. In Luke the Lord was led by the Spirit in the wilderness, as you have remarked, showing how His blessed movements were all in the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Yes, quite so. Luke shows us the priestly side. Jesus was led by the Spirit in the wilderness forty days; it shows how He was led through it, which should be a great help to us, to see how we should get through. It is a question of who is working for us to lead us to Christ -- to the One who is our Deliverer, but, as remarked, the believer is not viewed as acting by the Spirit until chapter 8.

A.R. So the secret is that if we walk in the Spirit we shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. We should all realise the importance of walking in the Spirit.

W.F.K. Were the Corinthians walking in flesh and not in Spirit? The apostle brings in the cross of Christ, to adjust them, and to meet the unspiritual conditions that existed there.

J.T.Jr. The gross evil at Corinth was not being dealt with. The man's conduct was scandalous. He was a lusting man, disregarding divine principles. The many sorrows of this character that are amongst us only emphasise that the general position is Corinthian.

C.A.M. It is remarkable, as has been called to our attention, that Joseph fled. Do you not think that sometimes we do not think it is actually necessary to flee, and we stay, as it were, near the border line. Is it not well to see that if Scripture says to flee, it is a necessary thing?

J.T.Jr. Quite so, to stay on the border is dangerous.

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That is a good way to put it. How many border-line cases there may be. Young people going out to their work and the like, get into circumstances where the devil has power. Where will we be in such circumstances? How shall we stand in them? So we are exhorted, "Pray that ye enter not into temptation".

S.W. You were speaking of the thought of being married to another. I thought of the scripture, "... who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20. If we respond to Christ's love for us our affections would be in a right direction and our life would be bound up with Him, and we would be kept from idolatry.

J.T.Jr. I am sure we would. It came out in Joseph in the way he regarded his master, and again in Uriah who is another outstanding person in this matter. He was thinking of the ark, and, we might say, of the truth. He would not submit to the proposal of David who was not right at the time. He stands out in Scripture as a man who was completely superior to natural impulses and to lust, which found such expression in David at that time. What you quote helps here for the thought is that we should live, and Paul says, "but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me", Galatians 2:20.

S.W. Would you say, too, that we are likely to undervalue the position into which we have been brought? There is apt to be a lack of appreciation for it.

J.T.Jr. I think this chapter helps every person in regard to the truth, for by it we can trace what we are; whatever failure we make, we can trace it all back to this chapter.

F.H.L. Jonah fled from Jehovah, but he had to go through the experience of death, great man that he was, before he got right. He says, "thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God", Jonah 2:6.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, it is much the same thing, only that

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with Jonah it was his will working. It was not lust working in him, but his will. Jonah was a wilful man at the beginning, and even after he got right he got angry when things did not go as he thought they should. That is of the flesh. All its varied forms are here in this chapter. Jonah got angry, as remarked, and he was a preacher, too. He defended himself, but Jehovah had the last word, which would probably indicate that Jonah acknowledged what Jehovah had said was right.

A.I. What helped the apostle in his exercises in this chapter? Was it the Spirit of God?

J.T.Jr. Well, we have remarked on that already. It was the experience of finding out through the decisions in himself that the failure lay in him. From verse 7 we see how he reaches these decisions. Then he says that the law indeed is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good. There is nothing wrong with what God has ordained. Then it says, "But sin ... working death to me by that which is good; in order that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful". That is, there was a full demonstration of sin in himself. It was brought out by the fact that lust was working in him. The commandment brought out the full demonstration in himself. He had to come to that; the thing was terrible! Then he says, "We know". It is a decision. How do we arrive at the truth? It is through decisions in ourselves. We know that the law is spiritual, and that we are fleshly, sold under sin. So we could list all these judgments that the apostle reached and then fit ourselves into the position. I have no doubt that Israel is alluded to in the thought of being sold. He says, "But I am fleshly, sold under sin". In the book of judges we read how the children of Israel were sold by God because of their sin; they were put into the hands of others in order that they might learn through the discipline of being

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under foreign rule. When they humbled themselves, then they cried to God, and God delivered them.

A.B.P. Would you say that, up to this chapter, it is what God has done for us? It is reached in our apprehension, by faith. But to be truly in the good of what has been done for us, we must have the thing worked out in us. So that the subjective side is reached in chapter 7?

J.T.Jr. Christ's flesh is over against our flesh in all this. What wonderful flesh the flesh of Christ was! It was holy. In Him there was no sin. We are thus to be occupied with the One who did no sin, and in whom was no sin. He was made sin, and sin was condemned in His flesh at the cross. We then begin to live as occupied with Him, and our life is Christ.

A.R. In the early part of the journey of the children of Israel, they got the manna when they murmured. And again, when they murmured, the rock was smitten. But this is more the bite of the serpent which requires that we look at the serpent of brass lifted up.

J.T.Jr. And so we often find persons who have a certain amount of joy at the beginning of their spiritual history, and it is right. Persons get converted and there is joy. They may think that is the end, but it is not, for that joy needs to be carried through. The joy that comes into our souls needs to be sustained and the believer needs to find how God has supplied all that he needs. And so we learn that Miriam died, in Numbers 20. I suppose she suggests the early joy in the believer's life which may run out. Well then, what is it that will carry us through? The first joy that came into our souls as believing in Christ will not carry us through. There must be something to sustain that joy. That is what is in mind in Numbers 21. It corresponds with what we are considering, and it is life out of death. Miriam died and we have to die in order that we might serve in newness of spirit.

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C.A.M. If we stop at Miriam's blessing and the joy that she had, we shall not reach the truth that God, having sent His own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; it is important, in this setting, to see where the types correspond. As we get the history of the children of Israel before us we can learn ourselves through it. For these things all happened as types and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. That is in chapter 10 of Corinthians and the apostle refers to the lusting of the children of Israel there.

F.H.L. Referring again to John 3:14 it says, "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up". It was a divine necessity that the Son of man should be lifted up.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the murmuring preceded the brazen serpent. They murmured against Moses and against Aaron. It was not the first murmuring. How much murmurings mark us! We murmur against this and against that. But have we come to it that these murmurings flow out of the sin that is in our flesh? And then what we are naturally should come to an end; whether we be sharp, or verbose, or cold, or effervescent, or given to folly or sport. These are all works of the flesh.

D.P. Would Romans 7 present a counterpart of the cross, worked out subjectively in the believer?

J.T.Jr. Well; it could hardly be a counterpart. It is really the process of two principles running through in ourselves. One is sin rising in us, and the other is what is right asserting itself. We need to be able to identify ourselves with what is right. We should come on to the identification of the 'I' and that that person is going through as identifying himself with what is right.

D.P. There is no thought of a dual personality.

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You have in mind that one must know how to identify oneself with the new 'I'.

J.T.Jr. Well, that is right; so he says in verse 17, "it is no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me". There are the two thoughts. He knows the sin that is in the flesh, and there is the 'I' that does not want to carry out the desires of the flesh. We do not want to do what is wrong, but what is right, and God is going to help us on that line, and He will continue to help us through.

S.C.M. Say something about the word condemnation. I was thinking of the Lord stooping down, in John 8, in connection with the woman. He wrote on the ground twice.

J.T.Jr. He stooped and wrote on the ground after they had asked Him, "thou therefore, what sayest thou?" Instead of answering at once, He wrote on the ground. They had time to reconsider but they continued asking. Then He says, "Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her". How much this brings up as to ourselves in dealing with matters that arise! How we need to be in constant self-judgment if we are to act for the Lord in such cases! He says to her, Go and sin no more. He does not give her a full acquittal. He does not say, Go in peace, but, Go and sin no more. And that is what those who have failed need to be told at the present time -- Go and sin no more. Stop sinning!

A.R. It is helpful to see how the apostle brings himself into this, It is, "I myself with the mind serve God's law; but with the flesh sin's law".

J.T.Jr. We should each reach the judgment that in our flesh good does not dwell, and that the principle of evil is there. We are to arrive at that conclusion and keep the 'I' moving on right lines.

S.W. Do we have to come to the point of being wretched before we can have the word, "Go in peace"?

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J.T.Jr. "O wretched man that I am!" How often that has to come up in our minds! We do the same things again and again. We determined we would not do them, but we do them again. The wretchedness as to self becomes a real thing.

W.A.T. If we realise our wretched condition and therefore get greatly discouraged because of what we find in us, the knowledge that "There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus" should lift us up and encourage us to go on with the mind of the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, so that we are not to be discouraged and bound up. The Lord wants us to get through and identify the 'I' with what is right. I myself with the mind serve the law of God.

W.W.M. And then it says, following the Lord having dealt with sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to flesh, but according to Spirit. It is the principle on which we now move, is it not?

J.T.Jr. I think it is; therefore you identify yourself with the mind of the Spirit. The person gets control of his mind. I suppose there is no more victorious moment in our lives than when we come to it that we have control, by the Spirit, of our minds, and that we are able to dismiss certain things from them, and retain what is right. The mind of the Spirit is life and peace.

C.F.E. There must be a state of self-judgment all the time with each one of us.

J.T.Jr. The principle of self-judgment must be there, for the flesh is always there. It is always ready to come up in us, even at moments of greatest privilege. It is liable to come up at the Supper and in other meetings, so that there must be that principle of self-judgment with us constantly.

E.T.P. The Lord said to the woman in John 8, "Go, and sin no more". Giving up sinning would lead

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on to doing what is right, which would be a positive thing.

J.T.Jr. The tendency with the woman would be to sin again. Telling her to go and sin no more would be putting it upon her to stop that line of things.

E.T.P. Would putting on the new man be the positive side to be reached?

J.T.Jr. Yes; the new man is over against the old man. The features of the new man are to be seen in our relations down here. There is a new state and all that we are and do should flow from this.

D.McD. Would you help us further on verse 17? "It is no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me". That does not excuse me, does it?

J.T.Jr. There is no excuse for us sinning, but the desire is to not do what is wrong. We want to do what is right; we have a mind to do what is right. Then the Spirit of God supports us on that line. At the same time, what is working in us is sin in the flesh which we may not have overcome, but the Lord is ready to help us to identify ourselves fully with what is right.

J.A.P. Is it like Caleb over against the murmurers? It says that Caleb had another spirit in him and followed Jehovah fully, so that Jehovah said He would bring him into the land into which he came, and his seed would possess it. He went through.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, and Joshua also, for he said that he and his house would serve the Lord. That was his decision.

E.A.L. Jabez is another important man in the Old Testament. He asked to be kept from evil.

J.T.Jr. Yes; and the Lord brought about his request.

A.R. You have been speaking about getting through. It is a humbling matter to think that Caleb and Joshua alone, of those of twenty years and upwards who left Egypt, got through to the land.

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J.T.Jr. Well, it is; so we might well ask, what about each of us; are we going through?

B.T. Would you say that we are to constantly be in the state of self-judgment? A man like Jonadab would be the opposite to this. He was a shrewd man and counselled Amnon as to Absalom's sister, 2 Samuel 13:5.

J.T.Jr. Yes, and with evil conduct in mind. The result was that Absalom murdered Amnon. What terrible things ensued in David's family on account of God's government on him for his own sin. Jabez, on the other hand, prayed that the evil might not grieve him. I think the prayer of Jabez should have our attention: "Oh that thou wouldest richly bless me, and enlarge my border, and that thy hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me!" 1 Chronicles 4:10. He was concerned that he should be kept from evil. Prayer leads to confidence in God that He will bring about right desires in us.

A.MacD. There is a footnote to the word 'serve' in verse 6, which says, 'serve as bondmen'. Would the thought of bondmen help?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; bondmanship is basic. We need to understand that -- especially those who take a lead and minister. If such go wrong, how will the mass of the brethren be kept right? Bondmanship would keep us close to the Lord and we would do His will no matter how much suffering it entailed. Paul uses the expression 'bondmen of Jesus Christ', meaning that he was completely bound over to the service of Christ, and not with his own importance or his own will before him in his service.

W.W.M. Being 'to another' would involve that we have become bondmen of Christ.

J.T.Jr. As having the Lord thus before us, and being emptied of what we are naturally, we would be vessels for the Holy Spirit to fill, and this is reached in chapter 8.

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The believer's mind is under his own control, and he serves God's law at the end of chapter 7. "With the mind" and "with the flesh" are instrumental, so to speak; the I myself is the person having assumed control, and he is ready for the Spirit. The judgment of God has been carried out; God has condemned sin in the flesh. The mind and the flesh are both in chapter 8. There is the "mind of the flesh", which would not only refer to lust (from chapter 7: 8) but every form or feature of the flesh including the intellectual mind of man; that is, man's wisdom, which is quite able to take up the holy things of God and hold them and deal with them in a wholly natural way. What is needed is the spiritual mind. There is the mind of the Spirit, and the "I myself" is to identify himself with that and thus he is free, and spiritual thoughts will develop in him and the Spirit of Christ will characterise him. What we have been considering is of the greatest importance and requires our careful and sober consideration in the Lord's presence.

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JUDGMENT (5)

Romans 8:31 to end; Romans 9:1 - 23; Romans 11:22 to end

J.T.Jr. At our last reading we reached the point in this epistle where it is said that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. The question is raised in chapter 8: 34, "who is he that condemns?" In the first verse of that chapter it says, "There is therefore now no condemnation ..." There is no judgment for those in that position. The penalty was borne by Jesus (verse 3). It needs to be fully understood by us that we are in a position where no matter can be brought up against us in judgment. The apostle asks, also, "Who shall bring an accusation against God's elect?" Who can accuse the believer? So that this section of the epistle brings out the greatness and unchangeableness of our position, as set free from death. Then the apostle turns to the matter of the rejection, for the moment, of Israel. Israel is, for the moment, set aside, as outlined in chapters 9, 10 and 11. God's ways with them are brought out, finishing up with the doxology at the end of chapter 11, "how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!" He shuts up all in unbelief, that He might show mercy to all. We might consider these two lines, therefore, one ending in chapter 8 and the other, as regards Israel and the nations, ending in chapter 11.

Chapters 9, 10 and 11 involve mystery, according to verse 25 of chapter 11. No one can judge God in what He does. "O man, who art thou that answerest again to God?" He does not have to give an account of His matters to any. So that these are important scriptures involving that we understand what the position is, first of all in regard of ourselves, and then in regard to God's earthly people. God's ways are marvellous, and His wisdom, and knowledge are beyond human ken. He comes out in mercy to all, not only to the gentile, but also to the Jew.

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R.H.S. What relation does mercy have to judgment?

J.T.Jr. It says that mercy glories over judgment, James 2:13. What has come out in chapter 3 proves that. Instead of being judged for our sins, God has come out in mercy to us and exercises His right to forgive us. Instead of the prisoner being executed, mercy comes in and glories over judgment and he is forgiven.

C.A.M. This wonderful place where there is no judgment, in the beginning of chapter 8, is making room for the glorious sonship that is to be manifested. Do you think it introduces us into a region of things that cannot be tarnished by any matter to which judgment relates?

J.T.Jr. We are thus free to take up the service of God as His sons.

C.A.M. It is a wonderful place to reach, is it not, after all that we have gone over in the earlier part of the epistle?

J.T.Jr. Yes; the believer needs to be established in this position, because the questions raised throughout the chapter may point to the fact that the enemy would seek to indict us and overwhelm us by any failures that might creep in. We do fail, and we do sin, but what comes in by the way in our histories, which involves our failures and sins, cannot change the position that has been arrived at.

C.W.M. Has that all been taken account of by God at the cross, and dealt with there?

J.T.Jr. Yes, sin has been condemned in the flesh of Christ; it all has been finished there for the believer, according to verse 3 of chapter 8. And if that is so, who can raise any accusation? Who can condemn? If everything has been met by Christ having been made sin vicariously for us, how can anything be brought up against us? No one can substantiate a charge against us.

A.R. Do you think that is the idea in Numbers 21

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where the death of Christ typically is brought forward in the brazen serpent? And then in chapter 22 you get a man coming forward to condemn the people of God. God saw no iniquity in His people. Balak wanted Balaam to condemn the people, but God gave him words to speak. Do you think that fits in here?

J.T.Jr. I think it does; the whole point in Balak's approach with Balaam was to condemn the people, but Balaam had to say, "How shall I curse whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I denounce whom Jehovah doth not denounce?" Numbers 23:8.

A.N.W. Is not the rebuttal overwhelming in verse 33? The question is raised, "Who shall bring an accusation against God's elect?" But the overwhelming answer is, "It is Christ who has died, but rather has been also raised up; who is also at the right hand of God; who also intercedes for us". The glorious basis for His intercession in His own death and resurrection is an absolute rebuttal against any accusation that can come.

J.T.Jr. Yes. God justifies us and who can question God? "It is God who justifies: who is he that condemns?" chapter 8: 33. We find from Revelation that the accuser of the brethren is in heaven all the time, and he accuses them day and night. What is brought out in this chapter is that the believer cannot be condemned or accused; he is in the blessedness of all that has taken place in that Christ has gone to the right hand of God. Christ is up there at the right hand of God, all having been accomplished.

W.F.K. Is it that no accusation can be brought against the elect? What is involved in election?

J.T.Jr. It refers to the saints as in God's mind before the world was; but this chapter supposes that the believer has reached, experimentally, the position where he cannot be accused or condemned. It is not that we do not fail; that is not the point. Satan would

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accuse and condemn, but the saints are in a position that is unassailable.

A.MacD. Was it not a great encouragement to Joshua the high priest, when Satan was rebuked? Satan stood at his right hand to resist him, but the word came, "Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan", see Zechariah 3:1 - 3.

J.T.Jr. Yes; the filthy garments were there, but God had put him in a position where he could not be condemned. As referred to already, Satan comes in through Balaam to condemn the people and to find fault with them and to curse them, but he could not do so. And we are to understand that; it helps us to be here more intelligently in the testimony.

E.A.L. Is it not important to see that Balaam said that the people shall dwell alone and shall not be numbered with the nations?

J.T.Jr. Yes, and from that point of view God did not see any iniquity in Jacob. He was viewing the people according to His own counsels, although they sinned grievously in Numbers 24 and 25. So we are to understand how God would hinder people such as Balaam. He sought to curse the people but he could not.

R.W.S. The people having sinned, the One "who also intercedes for us" was needed.

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so. The intercession of Christ is brought forward here; not to bring us to this position, for we are viewed as having arrived at it. The intercession of Christ is in view of what is against us. "Who shall separate us? ..." The priesthood of Christ and His advocacy are in mind in that verse. It is stated as if it were complimentary to His being raised up; "who is also at the right hand of God; who also intercedes for us". He is there and He is interceding for us. Priesthood is brought forward to show us that we have One up there to restore us if we fail. However, the

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position reached in verse 1 of chapter 8 is a positive one where there is no condemnation and nothing can change it.

F.H.L. It is God's own matter; it is God who justifies.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that the reference to condemnation in the end of the chapter carries with it a greater fulness than in verse 1? Throughout the chapter there is the idea of place being given to the Spirit and walking according to Spirit.

J.T.Jr. The suggestion is that there is someone who would accuse, but where do such stand? What basis have they to accuse, or condemn? They have none.

A.B.P. Verse 1 refers to those "in Christ Jesus". But the chapter develops the subjective side, involving the power of the Spirit here in wilderness conditions.

J.T.Jr. I think what we have reached by being in Christ Jesus runs along with the Spirit's operation in us.

A.N.W. The second verse confirms that. It says, "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death". He speaks now personally, for himself.

J.T.Jr. If we walk according to the Spirit we will not allow the features of the flesh. The point, therefore, in the subjective side alluded to is that, as we act by the Spirit, we will be led in the way of righteousness; there will be no failure. I believe it is possible to be in a path where there will be no failure, because the Spirit is great enough to bring this about with us as we act by Him.

A.R. It says, in regard to Israel, when Balaam sought to curse the people, that they were by the Jordan, opposite to Jericho. Is the position there in view of the land?

J.T.Jr. No doubt. Life comes up immediately in chapter 21 of Numbers and it is coming up here in this section of Romans. It comes up in the chapters preceding

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this. The trend, therefore, of our minds should be toward what we speak of as the land. It is the assembly, really, and this involves heavenly ground.

C.A.M. I think that the reference to verse 1 is good. There is a status that nothing can change. It is in regard to those in Christ Jesus. No one could change that position any more than change the position when the Lord was standing on resurrection ground. No Pharisee or anyone else could come near Him. The status was immune from attack and no one could alter it.

J.T.Jr. Yes; the end of the chapter, therefore, brings us to the climax of that. The enemy would bring up questions in order that he might disturb the believer because of failure. He would try to overwhelm persons because of failure, so that they might think themselves to be lost.

F.N.W. Would the singing in Numbers 21 link on with verse 31: "What shall we then say to these things?" Is it contemplated that we have reached a state in our own souls whereby we can say something as to the ground that has been covered thus far?

J.T.Jr. Yes, and that stays with us as a fixed matter, no matter what may transpire in our lives. I do not mean to say that we are to be loose and give place to the flesh. But we are to know how we are constituted and that what comes in by the way in our failures cannot change the position reached through the work of Christ. There is a difference between status and actual moral state. The status, therefore, is in mind in the first verse of the chapter, and it is again alluded to in verses 31 to 39.

A.N.W. The status, as you say, is in verse 1, and the actual experimental state is in verse 2. The apostle can now speak for himself, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death". Is that not state, by the power of the Spirit?

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J.T.Jr. Therefore, the word 'if' comes up frequently in the chapter. For example, "but if Christ be in you ..." in verse 10, and then in verse 11, "But if the Spirit of him ..." It is a question of whether or not a thing is so, and if so, then there are certain consequences. Our state may discourage us. What we actually find in ourselves may be used by the enemy to condemn us. He is sure to condemn us if we fail, and attempt to overwhelm us with what we have done.

T.N.W. The accuser of the brethren in Revelation 12 has been referred to. That is followed by the statement: "they have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb", Revelation 12:11.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; while he is up there he accuses; but then he is to be cast out to make way for the saints. He cannot be up there when the assembly goes into heaven. And we need to be marked by overcoming now.

E.A.L. Would you say that the righteous requirements of the law were fully carried out only by the Lord Jesus? It says in John's gospel that the law was given by Moses but grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ.

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so; but then there is the possibility that we can fulfil its requirements, too. The righteous requirement of the law is to be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit. That is possible. Moral state has been alluded to and that depends upon place being given to the Spirit. Right moral state is the urgent matter of the moment.

R.W.S. I suppose the most exercised or downcast christian could not ask deeper or more basic questions than these: "Who shall bring an accusation?" "Who is he that condemns?" "Who shall separate us?" If these matters are answered is there not victory?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; there is no doubt at all but that

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God foresaw the line that the enemy would take of bringing in accusations, and condemnation, and discouragement of the saints by their misconduct. Whatever misconduct there is must be taken account of, of course, but nothing can change this position of God's elect. No one can question it, because of what Christ has done.

A.R. In the section from verse 35 onward we have both the love of Christ and the love of God referred to: "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?" verse 35, and then, that nothing "shall be able to separate us from the love of God", verse 39. Having full regard for what is abstract, there must be something in the saints that is lovable.

J.T.Jr. That would be in line with what we have been saying as to the practical side. If we are walking by the Spirit and acting by the Spirit there will be the evidence of life operating in us, and life expressed in us would show itself in our love for divine Persons and for one another.

C.F.E. Say a little more about, "Who shall bring an accusation against God's elect?" I was thinking of Paul, who was said to be an elect vessel, and Peter, who speaks about the elect.

J.T.Jr. That is to be taken account of. Peter's status could not be changed. He was in Christ Jesus, but having failed he required the Lord's intercession and recovering power. The Lord said, "I have prayed for thee". When we fail we require the service of the priesthood of Christ and of His advocacy. That is what Peter needed; and Paul was used to help him later along the line of getting back to the ground he lost. We need to have a judgment of that in which we have failed and come back to what is right. Therefore, the position of the elect is in accord with divine righteousness. We must be consistent with the truth.

W.P. Is the principle of what you are saying seen

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figuratively in the woman in John 8? The Lord refused to condemn her. He said, Go and sin no more.

J.T.Jr. The Lord had His own death in mind. He could say to the woman, "Neither do I condemn thee". She was taken in the very act. She was guilty. But He stooped down and wrote on the ground. His enemies were trying to get at Him. They said that Moses had said certain things, but what would He say? The Lord could say, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more". It was in the light of His own death, which, I think, the stoop would involve, that He could say that.

D.P. Did Jonah have difficulty in seeing this line of truth when the burden of his preaching was set aside by God acting in sovereign mercy to the Ninevites?

J.T.Jr. You mean that the judgment was not carried through? God can act as He will. He cannot be questioned. It says, in chapter 9, "O man, who art thou that answerest again to God?" verse 20. Who can judge God when He has acted in mercy, instead of judgment? Who has a right to question God as Jonah did? How can we question what God does? That is the theme of chapter 9.

W.A.T. Would it not seem from this eighth chapter that there are difficulties to be faced by the saints, but in that connection they have the love of Christ? But in verses 38 and 39 death, life, angels, principalities, etc., are alluded to, and in that connection we have the love of God. So that in all these matters we have, on our side, that which would make us conquerors.

J.T.Jr. Yes; the word separate is used. We cannot be separated; the believer's position is immutably fixed, according to this chapter.

A.N.W. Would you say a word about what brings the believer to a persuasion. He says, "I am persuaded", verse 38. It is not merely abstract. What leads up to that persuasion?

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J.T.Jr. Well, I think it all hinges on our apprehension of what Christ has done, that His work has become effectual. The verse that stands out in chapter 8, I would say, is, "God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement", etc. I think that the experimental understanding of that verse leads us on to the position where we know that nothing can separate us, and no one can condemn us or accuse us. So far as our position before God is concerned, nothing can change that.

A.B.P. Would the Lord's dealings with Peter, in John 21, set aside all doubts and fears, and bring the active power of the love of Christ into his soul? Is that not an outstanding example of these things being worked out?

J.T.Jr. I am sure it is; and the thought of tribulation, distress, and persecution has been mentioned. We might question the discipline of God. His discipline may be rolled in upon us, and we might question it. Satan would use it to overwhelm us. So that we require to be formed in our souls in this fixed position which rests on the finished work of Christ. It is not only in the fact that He is raised, but He is also at the right hand of God. The matter is carried through now to where He is.

A.B.P. "We more than conquer through him that has loved us", verse 37. That is more than the eternal fixity of our position, is it not? It is the present victorious position of the believer.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. It is "through him that has loved us" that we more than conquer. Therefore it is to get the help and gain out of tribulation or distress, for these are things we all know about, and when they occur it is the hand of love that has done it. It is, "whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. Ye endure for chastening, God conducts himself towards you as towards sons", Hebrews 12:6.

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It is how God does it; what He has in mind in the discipline. We may have our own thoughts as to why the discipline has come, but what is in the Father's mind about it? Whatever happens, nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is the position we need to have firmly in our minds in regard to all the ways of God with us. They work together for good.

A.R. Do features of the new man come to light in Romans 8? Our sinful condition has been condemned in the flesh of Christ. It says that the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness. I was wondering if it is now the movements of a living person.

J.T.Jr. Well, I think so; and, of course, the way the matter is presented shows the trend of the apostle's own mind. This should help us because he speaks of personal experience. In the next chapter we see his feelings in regard to God's discipline of Israel. This had a great effect upon Paul. It is how he felt for his own people Israel who, for the moment, are cast off. If we follow the trend of Paul's mind we shall reach the unsearchable judgments of God, and His untraceable ways. The apostle would lead us on to that in the following chapters.

A.R. You just wonder how the apostle could speak of being a curse from the Christ for his brethren according to flesh.

J.T.Jr. He says, "I have wished, I myself, to be a curse". It was not his present wish in that sense. It was not then current in his mind; it had been; and he knew what a curse meant. We have the word, "Cursed is every one hanged upon a tree".

A.N.W. He seems to have had a kind of mediatorial feeling like Moses had. It would seem to be a sort of reflection of what was in the Lord Himself.

J.T.Jr. We get the deep feelings of Paul coming out

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here; which, I think, should help us in our own feelings. He had uninterrupted pain as to this matter. But then, what about our own matters? What about our own feelings as to persons under discipline?

T.E.H. He says that he has grief, too. Is there progression in connection with the feelings he had? He speaks of the curse as something that had passed from his mind, but the grief and the pain seem to be present things.

J.T.Jr. He says, "I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart". Grief and uninterrupted pain were present with him as to his kinsmen, which brings out how near he was to the Lord in his thoughts in regard to what was so precious to God; that is, His earthly people. It involved his own earthly links also, and it came very close to him. We have our own experiences and we may say, too, that we have grief and pain as to certain matters of sorrow that have come up amongst us.

W.A.T. And in that connection he says that his conscience bears witness with him in the Holy Spirit, showing that those feelings would be right feelings as governed by the Holy Spirit. He was not on party lines or allowing mere nature to dominate his feelings.

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

R.W.S. The character of his feelings is seen in 2 Corinthians 11:29, "Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled, and I burn not?" He is a model for us, I suppose, in feeling for those who have lost their way.

J.T.Jr. He says in the next chapter that Israel had zeal but not according to God. So it is with some who once walked with us. They have had zeal, but not according to God, and the trend of their minds has been in the wrong direction. We should feel all these things.

W.F.K. The apostle went first to the synagogue

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when visiting a place with the glad tidings. He would express Christ's love to Israel, would he not?

J.T.Jr. Yes, his feelings came out that way in the Acts.

W.F.K. He would be faithful to them and show that access to God was only through Christ, by the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; it brings out the fact that God was acting sovereignly in His governmental dealings with Israel, and He cannot be judged. God cannot be questioned as to what He is doing. Chapter 9: 12 says, "The greater shall serve the less". That is a matter of God's sovereign rights and these cannot be questioned. And so also, "to whom he will he shews mercy, and whom he will he hardens". He raised up Pharaoh and hardened him. God's judgment came on Pharaoh. He hardened him in order that He might show in him His power. God's judgments came out in Egypt in the plagues and then Pharaoh was finally judged in the Red Sea. The judgment of God cannot be questioned in these things.

W.F.K. He is sovereign in mercy: "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".

J.T.Jr. Yes and "it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy".

W.F.K. The apostle said of himself, "I obtained mercy", as if he appreciated mercy.

C.A.M. It is a remarkable thing how God's ways are stressed in these three chapters. It is a wonderful thing to take account of the fact that God orders all things so that they affect us in our experiences. Nothing that comes in can be outside of the control of God; so that, in His ways with us, nothing can disturb this settled and eternal blessing.

J.T.Jr. I am sure that is right; therefore Paul speaks of the untraceableness of His ways. His ways with us and amongst us may be very difficult for us to understand.

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We may not understand them, but as we get close to Him, and Paul here would bring us close to Him, we begin to see what is in His mind, and how it all finishes up with what is of Him, and through Him, and for Him at the end of chapter 11. Then there is the principle of hardening, for some persons that are under discipline get hardened. The priesthood of Christ is always available, but even though not availed of by persons who may be becoming hardened and are persisting in a course that would lead them out of fellowship, and keep them out, the Lord is still serving them as a Priest. I think that is a thing for us to remember, that no matter how long recovery may take, the Lord is still carrying on His service of intercession.

D.P. The disparity that we find in the world, which raises so many issues, can only be settled in the soul by bowing to the sovereignty of God.

J.T.Jr. That is what comes out here; we are to accept the sovereign action of God; it cannot be questioned. Who is going to judge Him? So it says in verse 19, "Thou wilt say to me then, Why does he yet find fault? for who resists his purpose?" Man would try to judge God, but man is to be judged, not God.

E.S. Peter had learned not to question God's sovereign movements. He says, "who indeed was I to be able to forbid God?" Acts 11:17.

A.B.P. The apostle must have been very strong in his feelings to have wished himself a curse from the Christ. Do you not think that was when the unbelief of Israel was still a mystery to him, as he says: "... this mystery", chapter 11: 25? Would it not seem that light came into his soul, and he gives us the very scriptures here that helped him? But when he saw clearly what God's mind is, he burst into doxology, chapter 11: 33.

J.T.Jr. Yes, there is also a doxology in chapter 9: 5: "... the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever,

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Amen". He is filled with this great Person, and who He is, God over all. And then there is the other to which you allude. Paul, deeply affected by the inscrutable ways of God, bursts forth in worship to God.

F.H.L. The solemn thing is, the Jews had the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, etc., and yet governmental blindness came upon them. Cases of persons who are under discipline, of whom you were speaking, have all the advantages of the present system of grace to help them and yet blindness comes over some of them and the light becomes darkness. How great it becomes!

J.T.Jr. Yes; therefore our own feelings should be with grief and pain as to them and interceding for them. We should not give up that service.

T.E.H. In the book of Ruth we get the recovery of Israel, in type, I suppose. Naomi said that Jehovah had brought her low, and the Almighty had afflicted her. But at the end, Obed (Worshipper) is in her bosom and she is nurse to him. She really now has reached a worshipful spirit. Is this reached in Paul's soul?

J.T.Jr. I think so; as light comes in and broadens in him, we have this doxology. And I suppose it should be so with us all. The wisdom and knowledge of God and His marvellous ways should bring us all to worship Him. That is another end reached following the position reached in chapter 8. We reach a position that cannot be changed; no one can change it. No matter what I do (and I am not saying that we should be loose) no matter what we might fail in, nothing can alter that position, if it is true of the believer. The chapter shows that the love of Christ has affected us, and the more sensitive we are the more quickly we shall overcome as we are in touch with the Priest. He will restore us to God. That is the service of Christ in this connection. He restores us to God, and to the Father. That is the priesthood of Christ, whose advocacy

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restores us to God, who restores us to communion with the Father when we have failed.

A.R. Why is it that so few who have been withdrawn from have been recovered?

J.T.Jr. Well, many things enter into that. Of course there is the mystery side of it too. There is mystery in these things. There is mystery in connection with Israel, Romans 11:25. Why was it? But Israel went this way and was cut off. Who knows what is going on in persons? It is mysterious, so that we have to leave certain persons with God. They may die out of fellowship, and that is most solemn, but on the other hand, many have been recovered and we rejoice in this.

T.N.W. How do you understand the passage: "And so all Israel shall be saved"?

J.T.Jr. Paul is speaking of the counsel of God's will; the elect shall be saved, and Israel will be complete. They are not saved through the gospel, but they are the elect. "As regards the glad tidings, they are enemies on your account; but as regards election, beloved on account of the fathers", Romans 11:28. Their election goes through, and they shall be saved. God shuts up all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. And so we see God coming out in His marvellous ways, so that Paul says, "O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor?" Who could question Him; who could be His counsellor? God is carrying His own plans through here, and the more we see them coming into fruition, the more we see that it is His wisdom and knowledge.

C.W.M. What would you say of verses 22 and 23? Are Israel and the assembly in the apostle's mind?

J.T.Jr. There are the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and God's long-suffering comes out in regard to them. "And if God, minded to shew his wrath and

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to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction ..." We can see that working out in what happened to Egypt. The Egyptian host was all destroyed in the Red Sea; God's judgment came out there. They were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. And then it came out prior to that at Sodom and Gomorrah. So that it says, in verse 29, "Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and made like even as Gomorrah". That is, they were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and they were destroyed. God's judgment came on them. But then, at the same time, vessels of glory were being prepared. It was Abraham and the line of faith. And then, in Egypt, God was preparing the children of Israel. They were being prepared for glory, in the typical sense. God said, "Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23. God was about to bring them into His land, as Moses said in the song in Exodus 15:17. So now the saints are the vessels of mercy whom God is preparing for glory.

R.W.S. The verse reads, "... which he had before prepared for glory". It reminds us of the word in Genesis which speaks of the shrubs before they were in the earth. This leads up to worship; there is such mystery and such inscrutableness in that God has prepared certain vessels for glory.

A.N.W. And should we not note that verse 22 is impersonal? The apostle is impersonal when it is a matter of vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. I suppose the vessels fit themselves, in that sense. But when it is a matter of vessels of mercy, it says that He had before prepared for glory; that is, He has done it Himself. We could hardly say that God fitted vessels for destruction.

J.T.Jr. So that I think we can see the force of it at the time of the flood. There were those upon whom

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the wrath came. Noah and his family would be vessels of mercy. And then, at Sodom and Gomorrah, the judicial action of God was upon vessels of wrath. And then, later, the Egyptians were destroyed. Pharaoh was raised up by God and hardened by Him. God hardened him, in order that He might show forth His power in him. "For this very cause have I raised thee up". And again, "So then ... whom he will he hardens".

A.R. Do you think that those who are preserved and brought into the millennium will be vessels of mercy?

J.T.Jr. Well; they would be. He shuts up all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all.

A.R. And so, chapter 11: 31 says, "so these also have now not believed in your mercy, in order that they also may be objects of mercy". They will come in on the basis of mercy, as we do.

J.T.Jr. It is important to see as to the vessels fitted for destruction, that first of all God's long-suffering was toward them. God endured them with much longsuffering. It was so at the time Noah preached, for the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, we are told. But then, those vessels displayed the fact that they were rebellious and fitted for wrath; they displayed it. Then again at Sodom, they displayed their corrupted condition. They were fitted for destruction. And so it is at the present time, there are persons who are fitting themselves for destruction.

F.N.W. In all those periods there were those who were sympathetic with God in what He was doing. So at the present time we should be feeling things in the same way.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; we are vessels of mercy. Therefore, it is a very suggestive thought, because our very bodies, in which we move, are the subjects of mercy; and I would say that God is very merciful with us in regard to our vessels.

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F.N.W. Would the acceptance of the ways of God in our personal histories, in the earlier chapters of this book, pave the way for the broader aspects of His ways as set out in these chapters? Would that help us to get what is in His mind as to these great matters?

J.T.Jr. I think so; we see how God deals with sin and we say that God is acting rightly. Some may question God as to His ways, with respect to all these terrible things that happen, but God cannot be judged of any.

A.R. Abraham said, "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25.

J.T.Jr. Exactly, the Judge does what is right.

A.R. God had said of Abraham, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" I suppose believers are brought into God's secrets.

J.T.Jr. These chapters are on that line and as we come alongside of God as Abraham was, we begin to see how everything shall end according to His mind. Paul speaks of the goodness and the severity of God. It is His goodness first, and then His severity.

A.R. There is nothing tests one more than to understand God's government. There is always something mysterious about it, do you not think? The apostle says, "how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!" I suppose to be in the secret of what we are talking about would involve being a friend of God?

J.T.Jr. That is good. Abraham was called a friend of God and he is brought into this book in chapter 4.

F.H.L. I believe that Genesis 18:25 is the first mention of the word 'judge' in Scripture. The thought carries right on to our scripture, as you were saying.

J.T.Jr. Yes, and it was used at the time when the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah was imminent.

A.A.T. It is said, "how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!" You would not say His

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counsels were unsearchable, or past finding out, would you?

J.T.Jr. I think this refers to the way God is working things out, the way He is working out His counsels. There can be no change in His counsels. The working out of His ways involves mystery. I think that the 'friend of God' comes into the current of what God is doing, and sees what He is doing.

A.N.W. So that whatever we do not understand or cannot trace, we can nevertheless say, "of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen". It provokes doxology in the soul.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. At the end of chapter 8 there is a position reached where, you might say, there is an answer in doxology to the exercise in our own souls; but at the end of this section, in chapter 11, we begin to understand God's public ways and His ways with His earthly people, and we find that they are all in perfect wisdom and knowledge and that produces worship.

A.R. Do you think that we often lack power with God and do not detain Him? Abraham detained God. He stopped and talked with Abraham.

J.T.Jr. The goodness and severity of God were present there, goodness in regard of Abraham and even toward Lot, and severity on Lot's wife and the Sodomites.

A.N.W. It says, 'Behold' it. I am sure we need to do that: "Behold then the goodness and severity of God", verse 22.

J.T.Jr. It is as if you stand still and see what is going on. The severity comes out here with regard to God's earthly people, but then, we bring it closer to ourselves, and we see that there are judgments amongst us, and we stand still and take account of this.

W.A.T. The passage says, "... upon thee goodness

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of God", but it adds a very searching statement: "... if thou shalt abide in goodness, since otherwise thou also wilt be cut away".

A.B.P. The word has great importance today, inasmuch as we are nearing the time when the gentiles will be cut off because of unbelief. Should there not be an increasing exercise with us that there should be an apparent difference between those who believe and those who are about to be cut off because of unbelief?

J.T.Jr. Therefore, the believer ought to have a sober, reverential attitude toward God. This is so lacking in the world amongst men. There is so little reverence toward God whose wonderful ways have been made known to us. They should inspire reverence as with the apostle.

D.P. Do you think, then, that we should never ask God, Why, when we come under discipline?

J.T.Jr. Well, it is good to ask as we get into the presence of God and really desire to have the right answer. I think it is right to ask, in regard to His discipline, for example, in order to find out what is in His mind. Apparently Israel's position is mystery, but the apostle would not have the saints ignorant as to it, according to verse 25, and we should find the answer to what is happening by getting to God and learning what he is saying to us.

A.B.P. Rebecca inquired of Jehovah in Genesis 25:22 and Jehovah answered her.

J.T.Jr. Yes; so there is an answer. If there is severity, why is it? The Lord's voice is in it, and we should hear His voice.

C.A.M. The answer to every question, however deep or wonderful it may be, is bound eventually to reach the greatness of Christ, and the glory of Christ.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, it is good to take account of the greatness of Christ in His service on high. He is at the right hand of God, and He is making intercession. He

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is interceding in regard to these very things about which we are speaking. If the discipline of God comes in, the priesthood of Christ enables us to get to God and find the answer.

F.H.L. The Lord himself asks the question when he entered into the judgment. Marvellous fact!

J.T.Jr. Quite so. He asks, "Why hast thou forsaken me?"

T.N.W. Should we not be slow in saying why it is in regard to others who are under discipline?

J.T.Jr. We should be very slow to do that. We need to be very careful in what we say about discipline which others are going through. It is mystery; God is acting in regard to persons He loves. Those habitually near the Lord are a safe guide in matters of this kind. They know.

W.F.K. The severity of God would always be right.

W.T.P. Are the discipline, and the answers to it, a part of the preparation for glory?

J.T.Jr. It would work that way. We can take account of certain things which have occurred in our lives and we find that the priesthood of Christ has helped us to get to God about them. As before God, we get the answer; and as taking it from the Lord, we get built up in our souls.

A.R. So that the only thing that goes through, whatever the dispensation may be, is the work of God. All the way down from the beginning, and in our own day, and in the millennium, it will all be what God has done. "What hath God wrought!"

R.W.S. There is a remarkable verse in Psalm 69 where it says, "They persecute him whom thou hast smitten, and they talk for the sorrow of those whom thou hast wounded", verse 26. If we cannot know all the answers as to why God has certain persons under discipline, we should not talk for the sorrow of those whom God has wounded.

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G.B.L. Psalm 51 is referred to in this chapter: "That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, be clear when thou judgest", verse 4. After that, David referred to the whole burnt-offering.

J.T.Jr. Yes, that was in regard to himself. He had found the answer. He got to God about his sin and the priesthood of Christ was there in a typical sense. He was able to offer up a whole burnt-offering. He understood why the discipline had come in.

F.N.W. Paul says in Ephesians 1"marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will", verse 11. Do you think that, if we were more established in the great truth of God's predestination, we would be strengthened to go through the details of God's ways?

J.T.Jr. Yes. Paul finishes here with, "who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him?" He is directing us to God in this way. God cannot be questioned; we do not question the discipline in the way of judging God. We find that His ways are all perfect.

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JUDGMENT (6)

Romans 12:1 - 4, 16 - 21; Romans 13:1 - 5; Romans 14:10 - 12

J.T.Jr. At the last reading we finished with the doxology in chapter 11 in which the apostle refers to the unsearchable judgments of God. We began this series of readings with the consideration of the righteous judgment of God in chapter 1 of the book. We dwelt also on the solemn fact that before there could be the setting forth of the Lord Jesus as the Mercy-seat, He had to bear the judgment of God, and as a result of this there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. In the verses read in chapter 12 we are enjoined to "think so as to be wise" (so as to have a sober judgment), and also that we are not to avenge ourselves. In chapter 13 we are warned as to practising evil, for the authority set up by God is his "minister, an avenger of wrath to him that does evil". In chapter 14 we are warned as to judging the servant of another, and we are told that we are all to be placed before the judgment-seat of God.

J.T. It is important to remember that the subject in Romans is the gospel of God concerning His Son, so that in selecting parts of the book we have to bear in mind that the glad tidings is a great subject, and it is to the end that we all should be affected by it. Judgment, of course, is to be borne in mind, but we are to be affected by the great thought of God in the gospel. It is the gospel of God concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. And it is of moment for us to finish with it; indeed, it seems to me to be the time of finishing with the great thought of the gospel, carrying with it too, as we have intimated, the idea of judgment. So that in view of the great subject of the book, the parenthesis beginning with chapter 9 is to make way for the counsels of God as to Israel, for God has never forgotten His counsels as to Israel, and the word which is in the section which begins with chapter 9 is that all Israel shall be saved.

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J.T.Jr. That is what leads to the doxology in chapter 11.

J.T. We could hardly have the doxology unless we had the idea of salvation; that is what I would think, and the apostle states this fully in regard to Israel, that all Israel is to be saved.

A.N.W. The emphasis is on all Israel. All Israel shall be saved.

J.T. That is to say, what God regards as Israel, because He has His own way of counting. Sometimes it may seem that He is sparing in His counting, but He counts in His reference to Israel as in Reuben (Deuteronomy 34), that he is countable. So that God has His counts and He keeps to them. There is to be no variation, eventually, as to the divine numbering.

A.R. How shall Israel be saved?

J.T. It will be through a gospel by representatives of Christ to Israel, Matthew 10 and Revelation 7. The gospel we are dealing with in Romans is the gospel of the present time. The brethren should have this in mind because it is important to keep it clearly before us that God has His count, His thoughts and the numbers attaching to them. So that in Revelation 7 we have an immense number of the redeemed who "came out of the great tribulation", but at the same time we are told about the one hundred and forty-four thousand of the tribes of Israel who are "sealed ... upon their foreheads". They are given to us expressly in the same chapter.

A.N.W. Would the apostle have that in mind in the first verse of chapter 10, where he says, "Brethren, the delight of my own heart and my supplication which I address to God for them is for salvation"?

J.T. He would have it in the sense that he would be with God about it.

A.N.W. Yes, I thought just that, that he would be in keeping with the mind of God.

J.T. If we pray, the thing would be to have what

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God has in His mind on the one hand, and on the other hand the unlimitedness of His salvation in the gospel period.

A.R. Israel will come in on the basis of mercy as we.

J.T. Paul expressly says so: "according to his own mercy he saved us", Titus 3:5. He had mercy shown him because his opposition to God and His people was in ignorance and unbelief. But the idea of mercy applies to us, too, in that sense.

A.R. It says in Romans 11:31, "... that they also may be objects of mercy", referring to the godly remnant.

J.T. Quite so. God has His thoughts and He loves to express them, and not only to save, but to show mercy.

S.W. Do you have in mind that we should not belittle what God has in mind in relation to Israel, but that we should act like the apostle? He said he had great grief and uninterrupted pain in relation to his kinsmen. The spirit of vengeance was not with the apostle. He would not render evil for evil. He had been beaten and stoned by the Jews, but he did not seek to be avenged.

J.T. Quite so; he was sympathetic with God. No other servant of God speaks as he does. The feelings that he had were of one feeling things with God. He said, "I have wished ..."; not, I understand, that he was then wishing, but that he had wished himself a curse from the Christ for their sakes.

J.T.Jr. His prayer, according to the note to chapter 10: 1, was that they might be saved, and not judged. Is that what you are stressing?

J.T. Quite. That is a very good remark. Peter has a similar thought. "The Lord ... is longsuffering towards you, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance", 2 Peter 3:9.

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A.N.W. In the next chapter the apostle Paul refers to himself as of the tribe of Benjamin.

J.T. Well, just so. Benjamin is called "little" in Psalm 68. He was the smallest of all the tribes except Manasseh. So that it was remarkable that Paul should be taken up as of the tribe of Benjamin; although God had great thoughts about Benjamin. He said He would dwell between his shoulders, referring to Jerusalem which had been in Benjamin's territory. Benjamin was the son of his mother's sorrow but the son of his father's right hand. These are some of the things that God would have us have in our hearts, as to this great parenthesis in Romans.

J.T.Jr. So that we should not take delight in any discipline or judgment that might come in upon any, but should have recovery or salvation in mind for them.

J.T. Quite so. We are not to be too free in speaking of any person even as to any discipline that God may be pleased to inflict, because He has His own way and we cannot always be sure as to what is on His mind.

A.R. At the end of the doxology in the previous chapter he says, "how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!" We cannot always tell what may be in God's mind in the discipline.

J.T. You cannot always tell. Paul says, as to his ascent to the third heaven, "God knows". We have not to be too sure of what is going to happen, and certainly if it be a question of our departure, in the sense of dying, we had better just say, "God knows".

E.A.L. Paul says, "I am not ashamed of the glad tidings, for it is God's power to salvation". In preaching the glad tidings he would bring in judgment, but he would measure it with grace.

J.T. Yes, and that runs through the book. We see it earlier, in David's day, how David numbered the people and he suffered consequently. God sent His angel to inflict judgment: "but Jehovah repented him

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of the evil", and so there was relief for them. Thus we must be most careful as to our disciplinary meetings. We are not to be too sure whether we have to do it, or whether God has to do it.

A.B.P. Would you say that the compassions referred to in this chapter, verse one, relate to the treatise in the three preceding chapters as to Israel? Therefore our humility has to be worked out as having some sense of this in our souls.

J.T. I think that is good. God is dealing through the apostle with the whole matter of salvation for the saving of man, whether it be God's dealing with mankind as such, or Israel. The chapters preceding deal with this. And so the word here in chapter 12 is, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the compassions of God". And then, that we should be in accord with these compassions, "to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service". That is a word which relates to the Lord's supper. He says, elsewhere, "I speak as to intelligent persons", 1 Corinthians 10:15.

C.A.M. So that God recovers, through the gospel, the bodies of men in this way for His own service, before they get glorified bodies. It is the same body in which we have worked out the moral question, and it is in these very bodies that He has the triumph.

J.T. Hence we have reference to the things done in the body: "So then each of us shall give an account concerning himself to God". These are the things that come in for review at the judgment-seat of God, for that is the word that is used here. It is not the judgment-seat of Christ here, but the judgment-seat of God. It is a question of what is done in the body, whether good or evil. If we do evil we are told to fear, "for it" (the powers that be) "bears not the sword in vain; for it is God's minister, an avenger for wrath to him that does evil", Romans 13:4. The powers that be are set up by

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God, now, and are against evil. At the judgment-seat of God every matter will come up and will be seen in its true light. We are to anticipate the judgment-seat by having a right judgment now.

C.A.M. What a wonderful thing the result of the gospel is! For we shall soon have glorified bodies; but there is a triumph in these bodies in which we now are, when we practise what is good. "Glorify now then God in your body", 1 Corinthians 6:20.

J.T. So that if "our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens", 2 Corinthians 5:1. That brings out the whole matter as to our bodies. We will be in our bodies of glory at the judgment-seat when the review takes place.

C.F.E. Does self-judgment enter into these verses in chapter 12, as presenting our bodies a living sacrifice?

J.T. Well, quite so; it is self-judgment. It is not God's judgment. It is important too, that we should each set out at the beginning of his career to judge self, because that self has to go right through.

S.F. Are we helped in that in the sense of the mercy that has been shown us? God has shut up all in unbelief, not that He might judge or condemn, but that He might have mercy on all. That would help us in judging ourselves. It is God's disposition to have mercy.

J.T. It gives us great latitude in our souls in judging ourselves, for we are deserving of the judgment of God. We can recount our whole history and count all the mercies, and that encourages us to judge ourselves. It is now God's disposition to have mercy and it was always His disposition to have mercy.

S.M. We are told that God is rich in mercy.

A.B.P. Would it seem that the mind is under control in this chapter? There is the renewing of our mind and then the control of our thoughts, for we are not to

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have high thoughts. We noticed that the control of the mind has a remarkable place in the book.

J.T. Quite so. It has a remarkable place in the history of every Christian, especially in relation to the Lord's supper. This book really fits us for the Lord's supper and the place the mind has in it.

J.T.Jr. While there is nothing directly said about the Lord's supper here, yet the intelligent service of presenting our bodies would have all that in view, so that the positive line has to be kept before us. In order to be in the good of the Lord's supper and what flows out of it we must be in constant self-judgment.

J.T. Well, I think the apostle was led by the Spirit of God to open up the order of the assembly at Corinth. We are to understand the place Corinth has in the divine mind. The Lord's supper is reserved for Corinth. It is spoken of in the gospels, but Corinth is particularly in the divine mind in view of the assembly. The apostle remained eighteen months there.

C.A.M. Would you say that this epistle prepares us for the Lord's supper, and would it be taken for granted that, in a moral way, the soul has travelled through what has occupied us in the epistle as we partake of the Lord's supper?

J.T. Well, I think the moral side has a great place and Romans is dealing with the matter of the gospel. The subject in Romans is the gospel, but then the Supper could be brought in. It is brought in usually in our celebration of it; but the Corinthian epistles finalise in regard to the Lord's supper.

A.R. Do you think the mind coming in here, preceding the thought of the one body, suggests that our minds should be under control at the Supper?

J.T. I think so, for the mind is the great thinking faculty, the power of control, and it has a great place in the Lord's supper. It has a great place in Romans so as we have here: "present your bodies a living

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sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your intelligent service". It is your intelligent service.

A.R. One of the most difficult things is to keep our minds under control in relation to other persons at the Supper. Do you think that is important?

J.T. Well, that is right. We sit down together, and our thoughts are in one direction. We are not to study one another's dress, but the demeanour in which we sit down. Because the Lord comes, and He expects something in us to comport with the occasion. Therefore, the mind is so important. In Psalm 19, for instance, there is allusion to the Lord as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber. We come out of our chambers too, but then it is a question of how we come, the attire, the comportment, as we enter into the position where the Lord's supper is celebrated.

G.B.L. So, at the Lord's supper, it is our calling of Him to mind.

A.N.W. Would you look for something of the bridal adorning? Do you think the "bride adorned for her husband" has a place at the Supper?

J.T. If you are thinking of the Husband, He has not come yet, of course, and we are on the way to see Him come; because He comes "leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills", Song of Songs 2:8. And then His swiftness is alluded to. And then, "He looketh in through the windows, glancing through the lattice". These things are discerned by us as the Lord approaches.

A.N.W. That is very interesting.

J.T. Yes; it is interesting; it brings in Solomon where he should be brought in, as seen in the Song of Songs, because the Lord would have Solomon in mind as a type of Himself as fitting in with the Lord's supper.

S.W. Have you also in mind chapter 3: "Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness?" verse 6.

J.T. Quite so; it is the loved one -- 'she'.

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A.B.P. Does what you have said as to the Supper flow out from the expression here, "... present your bodies a living sacrifice"? Is that what you had in mind?

J.T. Yes; we have already alluded to it, as to how we come attired as morally suitable to the Lord's supper.

J.A.P. Is it your thought to preserve us from the spirit of heaviness in the morning meeting, and that we are to be ready to serve the Lord?

J.T. Exactly.

J.A.P. The spouse in the Song of Songs was not ready at one time, was she?

J.T. She was not ready when her beloved was ready to come in. All that is most interesting as to this subject we are on now; the importance of the book of Romans as to the Lord's supper. Corinth was especially instructed but Romans supports the whole position.

R.W.S. Would "be not conformed to this world" bear on 1 Corinthians 10, and "intelligent service" on 1 Corinthians 11?

J.T. Just so; and headship in regard to the sisters, especially, in chapter 11 of 1 Corinthians.

D.P. Would the presentation of our bodies be priestly?

J.T. It is said of the Lord that He presented Himself living to the disciples. I would not say that was priestly, but I think the idea of our presenting ourselves is priestly. But it is not a question of worship, exactly, but presenting ourselves with a view to worship.

J.S. Does the Lord give a lead when He says, "This is my body, which is for you"?

J.T. Well, He does; it is something to especially think of, because it bears on the whole matter of the Lord's supper. It is said of the Lord, that He "took bread, and having given thanks broke it, and said, This is my body, which is for you". That is His own body; not the assembly. That is in chapter 11: 23, but

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in chapter 10: 17, the assembly is the body. "We, being many, are one loaf, one body".

F.H.L. There is never any thought of recalling the sacrifice. It is presenting our bodies as an intelligent service. The sacrifice has never to be recalled.

J.T. That is very good. But then, the Lord is not going to accept anything that we may offer. If the thing is not to be recalled it must be primarily acceptable.

A.B.P. What was it that some in Corinth did not discern? It says "... not distinguishing the body".

J.T. It was the Lord's own personal body that was not discerned, not the assembly. It was the Lord's own body. That is where the error was; there were unholy feelings about the Lord's body.

F.N.W. Is this "renewing of your mind" a continual action or just once?

J.T. Well, I would say continuous.

F.N.W. If we maintained this state, it would help us to keep ready for the Lord's supper, or any service.

J.T. You are there in freshness and in suitableness too, so that there is nothing to cause any offence in the Lord's mind.

R.W.S. And does the transformation suggest something real in us in the way of "from glory to glory"?

J.T. Yes; the word here in verse 2 is, "Be not conformed ... but be transformed". It would point to chapter 3 of 2 Corinthians, where it is "transformed", it is a metamorphosis. In 2 Corinthians 3:18 we are completely changed.

J.T.Jr. 'Conformed' is, therefore, in view of the place where we are. "Be not conformed to this world" would mean that, though we are in this world, we are not to be affected by it, for we may carry that into the assembly. Being conformed to the world is more likely to be seen in the sisters in their dress than it is in the brothers.

J.T. And it would be a matter, too, of our being in

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the world and going through it in our affairs. But transformation is in view of what is suitable to the Lord.

J.H.E. Is not the latter part very helpful? "That ye may prove ..." There are certain things that we have to do. If the disciples had not obeyed or hearkened to the message sent through Mary and gathered themselves together, they would not have been in the position where the Lord could come in among them. There are certain things that have to take place before He is free to make His presence known.

J.T. So that 2 Corinthians helps as to the service of God; God is looking for His service in us, and the second epistle to the Corinthians is leading up to that. If we turn to it for a moment it will help us, I think. "Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:17, 18. So that the passage we are now dealing with in Romans leads up manifestly to the Lord's supper.

J.T.Jr. In Corinthians it is 'looking' whereas in Romans it is more the mind. It is "transformed by the renewing of your mind", which is antecedent to what you have quoted.

J.T. I was thinking of that yesterday in this room, that reverentially we may close our eyes, and we do; but if there were more power, the eyes could be opened. It is a question of looking, and then the transformation being seen there, as in accord with the Lord Himself as He comes in.

A.R. What change takes place, then, is inward, is it not?

J.T. It is, but it is substantial or real.

A.R. You are conscious that a change has come over you in your soul.

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J.T. Yes. Much has been made in earlier days about metamorphosis. It is a complete change, but it is by the Spirit. The change is by the Spirit. "The Lord the Spirit", brings the Lord Himself into it and He would have us in that condition.

T.N.W. In speaking about looking upon the saints in the meeting, had you something in mind as to gauging the state of the saints as together?

J.T. Well, not to make too much of it. There is a word that can be used conveniently -- if we do not want to stress a thing unduly, then we speak more fluidly, but if we have to stress things we speak solidly, and that is a very important matter. If you want to think of how the saints appear before the Lord, and you are glad to be in accord with the Lord's mind, then you might speak of that in a fluid sort of way without making too much of it; because the time is usually very limited.

R.W.S. What is "the same image"?

J.T. It is the idea of representation; similarity. What do you say?

R.W.S. I was not clear. I wondered if we all are alike and take on the same features.

J.T. It is the same features; we are all similar. It is the result of looking on the glory of the Lord. It is said that the Lord is the Spirit, and this should be read with the closest attention. The Lord is said to be the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. In regard to what you said about the eyes: if we were more spiritual we could have our eyes open.

J.S. Stephen had his eyes open, did he not, in Acts 7:55?

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. You have a model, too, in the Lord Himself in John 17:1.

C.A.M. You made a reference earlier to Psalm 19 in connection with the bridegroom coming out of his

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chamber. If I understood you rightly you applied that to us.

J.T. Quite so. It is remarkable how our houses are linked up with the Lord's supper. The apostle says, "Have ye not then houses". But we come out of our houses. Our houses should be a sphere of glory too, and from that we move into the assembly.

A.N.W. Is there something suggested in the Song of Songs as to the footsteps of the flock? "If thou know not, thou fairest among women, go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flock, and feed thy kids beside the shepherds' booths", chapter 1: 8.

J.T. That is very good.

C.A.M. Does the attitude of the saints make way for the thought of the bride in the Lord's supper?

J.T. It acquires a great place in the end of Revelation. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", chapter 22: 17. It is a striking thing for the Spirit and the bride to say, Come, to Him who is "the root and offspring of David". The assembly is there regarded as being very near to Deity; not linked up with it, literally, but very near to it. The Spirit and the bride say the same thing at the same time. And then, they understand; He says, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star". That is to say, the bride is in that relation, so near to the Spirit. There is no other scripture that I know of that places the saints so near the Spirit. Of course the Spirit is in the assembly, but there is peculiar distinction in the bride speaking to the Lord at the same time and using the same word as the Spirit.

C.A.M. So that the bridal thought is an eternal matter; it is a very great thought.

J.T. Well, it is; it is a final matter, an eternal matter. God has greatly helped the brethren elsewhere on that passage.

J.T.Jr. Saying the same thing, therefore -- "the

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Spirit and the bride say. Come", would point to the place the Spirit has with us in what He is saying and what we are saying. As you have remarked, we need to pay close attention to the statement that "the Lord is the Spirit", in 1 Corinthians 3:17.

J.T. Just so; it is plain enough that the time is near when the Lord will come in answer to these wonderful 'Comes' of the Spirit and the bride.

S.M. The whole book of Revelation seems to be marked by the Spirit, beginning from the first chapter. John was "in the Spirit on the Lord's day".

J.T. Very good. The Lord is saying a good deal to the saints elsewhere about the place the Spirit has, and the book of Revelation is striking in that sense.

A.R. Is that idea seen in Genesis 24, where the servant brings Rebecca to Isaac?

J.T. It is. The servant clearly represents the Spirit. He is not called Eliezer there. He is spoken of as Eliezer earlier, in chapter 15, but in chapter 24 he is spoken of as the chief servant of Abraham. He is "his servant, the eldest of his house", verse 2. It is to bring out the greatness of the person; that he is a type of the Spirit of God. The servant there is astonished at what he sees in Rebecca (verse 21) showing what a formation she is typically.

A.R. And so they both come to Isaac, the servant and Rebecca.

J.T. That is right; they both come to Isaac.

A.R. I am impressed with what you are saying as to the Spirit and the bride saying, Come. They both move toward Christ together, in that sense.

J.T. And then it is said that Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi. The note says, 'came from coming to'. It is as if his mind was on the well. It is a question of the Spirit, really. It was seen first in relation to Hagar, which is another great matter, showing how God is merciful to Israel. And then he saw the camels, not

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yet Rebecca; that is to say, when Isaac saw the power by which Rebecca was carried, it affected him.

A.R. That means by which she was carried is also typical of the power of the Spirit, is it not?

J.T. That is what it is.

A.N.W. And then it says that Rebecca sprang off the camel. It was her own action.

J.T. Then she inquires about the man "that is walking in the fields to meet us". The servant said, "That is my master!"

R.T.M. When is it that the Spirit and the bride say, Come?

J.T. When they say it.

R.T.M. I understood from the way that you were speaking that something of that feature should be with us now, and I wanted to understand more what you had in mind.

J.T. It is a state of soul, not in the Spirit, of course; a state in the bride. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". The Spirit is a divine Person, but the bride is the assembly.

A.B.P. It is like a counterpart, is it not, of Genesis 2? There it was not good for Man to be alone, and Woman was brought to satisfy Man; but what you are saying would show that the bride requires to be satisfied. What has been formed by the Spirit in the bride has to be satisfied.

J.T. You are now linking Revelation 22 with Genesis 2?

A.B.P. Yes; would that be reasonable?

J.T. I think it is quite reasonable, because you are now in the midst of creatures. Adam was the greatest creature of all there, but then there were others, and Adam was deputed to name them, as if God would have intelligence all round Him in the creatures. And the Lord would, as it were, convey to us who each is personally, and I think the word 'judgment' enters

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into what we are saying. One often has the liberty to say he has a judgment about every christian he knows; not to be critical, but to have a right intelligent thought about every one you know. And Genesis 2 would bring that out, that Adam gives names. God told him to do so, and God never changed a name that Adam gave to a creature. In the scripture we are speaking of, however, we have a divine Person, the Spirit, and the assembly, a creature, saying the same thing to the Lord Jesus. It is one of the most remarkable things I know.

T.E.H. Will you help us as to the suggestion of the silver articles, and gold articles, and clothing which Rebecca received before she left the place of her nativity?

J.T. I think it is to bring out the idea of richness that there is in the scene. It is not a bare, uninteresting situation. Genesis 24 depicts a wonderful situation. It is to bring out the richness, and then there is the feminine side too; the maidens that were there, pointing to femininity.

S.M. It is said of the Lord that He had found one pearl of great price. Is that something akin to what is before us?

J.T. Yes, as to richness.

J.T.Jr. Do you think the allusion to Phoebe, in Romans 16, would be a similar thought? Then the salutations follow and then the reference to the assembly; and then finally, the mystery. All come into view in that chapter.

J.T. Very good.

J.T.Jr. There is the actual mention of the word 'assembly'. At the beginning of the chapter Phoebe is said to be "minister of the assembly"; then "the whole assembly", in verse 23; and finally, in verse 25, "the revelation of the mystery". The assembly seems to be coming to the fore at the end of the book.

J.T. I think all that brings out the idea of richness.

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The Spirit of God would have us in the realm of richness; not in barrenness or poverty, but in richness. And so we have at least twenty salutations in the chapter.

F.N.W. Paul's judgment there brings out quality in the persons.

J.T. And then terrible reference to persons who cause division, in verses 17 and 18.

J.T.Jr. "But I beseech you, brethren, to consider those who create divisions".

J.T. As if it is wholly foreign to the scene. And then Phoebe is herself an ornamentation, for that is what she is.

C.A.M. At the beginning of the meeting you stressed the place the gospel has in this epistle, and in connection with the thoughts that were just expressed as to Phoebe and the assembly, is it not an interesting thing that he says, "... according to my glad tidings", in that setting? (chapter 16: 25).

J.T. Well, as we were saying already, it is to bring out the richness of the whole scene. We have already enlarged on that in Genesis 2, Genesis 24, and Revelation 22. It is to bring out the richness that there is in Scripture. When we take up a book to read, let us consider how rich it is; what richness there is to ennoble and dignify us, and that we are dealing with great things.

A.P. Does the matter of sonship come into this subject? In Romans we are to be conformed to the image of His Son.

J.T. Quite so, in chapter 8: 29.

A.N.W. Referring to the term 'glad tidings': is it fair to ask if they are ever anything else but glad? Is there anything but gladness in the glad tidings?

J.T. Well, that has to be thought over, because there is the idea of intelligence in it. I speak as unto intelligent persons, the apostle says.

J.S. Is wrath not revealed in the glad tidings?

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J.T. I do not think so. What does it say?

J.S. "For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness".

J.T.Jr. It is "revealed from heaven"; it does not say that it is revealed in the glad tidings. In regard to your remark as to having a judgment of every christian you know, would the word in Romans 12:3 help? It says, "think so as to be wise". The note to that verse says, 'so as to have a sober judgment'.

J.T. "For I say, through the grace which has been given to me", verse 3. I have often thought of that. What he is talking about, he says, is through grace; not something through intelligence, but through grace: "through the grace which has been given to me, to everyone that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think". There are high thoughts, of course, in Scripture; "heaven for height". The truth implies high thoughts, but then, "to everyone that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith". That is to say, it is not a measure of intelligence now, but the whole matter is to be in faith.

F.H.L. Would it be right to say that the mind comes into Corinthians again in connection with proving oneself? You were linking that up with the Supper.

J.T. Well, it is; it is linked up very distinctly with the Supper.

A.R. Do you think that, in this chapter, every bit of service should be carried on on the principle of faith?

J.T. I think so; if not we will drop down to the level of sight and the level of the natural mind.

A.R. It is not a question of what we know, but of linking ourselves on with God.

J.T. So that, if we sit down to partake of the Lord's supper, and keep our eyes open, which we may do, it

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requires holiness; it is a holy scene. We are not thinking of what we may be naturally. I ventured to say something about it yesterday when giving thanks for the Lord's supper, although one just wonders if it is wise generally to open our eyes. It might mean irreverence to do so, whereas it is a question of the power of the Spirit. That is the idea that enters into the whole matter after we sit down to partake of the Lord's supper. The Spirit is there with us; the Lord will be there, but the Spirit is there with us.

T.E.H. Would it be right to say that there are so many things between earth and heaven that may distract us if we keep our eyes open, but if we close them we are kept from distraction.

J.T. It is a question of discernment and wisdom with each of us.

A.N.W. And then, if we think that the closing of the eyes is part of the ritual, we err, do we not? I may assume that it is part of the ritual.

D.P. Would you say that we close our eyes instinctively, or is it a matter of the mind?

J.T. I think it is a matter of the mind. You are doing the thing intentionally, I think. Instinctively is not a strong enough word, although speaking fluidly, you could use it. But I think it is a matter of the mind, because we are there as intelligent persons.

D.P. I thought that to look around would be rather distracting.

J.T. Well, the question is where we are, and if our eyes are powerful enough to control the whole position. We are in a wonderful position; in the assembly we are at the gate of heaven; we are only just a step from heaven, really. We are dealing with the Spirit and the bride; we are dealing with wonderful things!

G.B.L. Balaam refers to the "man of opened eye ... who seeth the vision of the Almighty". He was made to look at Israel in that way.

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J.T. "The vision of the Almighty" is a good phrase there.

A.N.W. What broke their hearts in Acts 20 was that the brethren should not see the apostle's face again.

J.T. Chapter 20 of the book of Acts is a love chapter throughout, and the last verse, to which you allude, refers to the face of Paul.

E.T.P. When Moses came down from the mount the children of Israel were unable to look upon his face. Would that indicate a lack of spirituality?

J.T. I suppose the reference there, by the Spirit, is to the state of Moses' face -- what it was. They were unable to look upon it for they were unequal to it.

R.W.S. In 2 Corinthians 4 it speaks of the shining forth of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

T.N.W. Later in this epistle there is the expression, "... for whom Christ has died". Should we have thoughts like that in looking at the saints?

J.T. "For if on account of meat thy brother is grieved, thou walkest no longer according to love. Destroy not him with thy meat for whom Christ has died", Romans 14:15. It is a beautiful thought how these may be brought together.

A.R. It says in chapter 14: 4, "Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own master he stands or falls". That verse has been quoted as showing that you cannot judge those who are serving. Is that how this scripture applies, or does it refer to judging the weakness of a brother in refusing to eat certain things, or what might correspond to this?

J.T. Well, you are not to be marked by a critical spirit in taking account of those who serve. It says in verse 4, "Who art thou that judgest".

A.R. One cannot, as serving the Lord and the saints, consider himself immune from the brethren judging his conduct if it is not right. This verse is not a question

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of serving; it is a question of eating. That is how the context really stands, for it says in verse 3, "Let not him that eats make little of him that eats not; and let not him that eats not judge him that eats; for God has received him".

J.T. Well, I see what you mean. It is a question of what enters into the present time, for we are in the time called Lent. That sort of thing comes up and we are to be outside of it in holiness, and should not be affected at all in regard to what a man eats and drinks. But much more could be said about that as bearing on the whole chapter. This chapter in Romans should be compared with chapter 5 of 2 Corinthians. It is a question of the value of a brother.

C.A.M. Verse 10 has nothing to do with eating, has it? -- "But thou, why judgest thou thy brother? or again, thou, why dost thou make little of thy brother?" That, I suppose, is a general thought.

J.T. Well, it is a question of the teaching of the chapter. The apostle is treating of "him that is weak in the faith" and, therefore, if a brother has a conscience as to certain things, you would not despise his conscience; but at the same time, such a brother cannot make his conscience a rule or standard for others. Therefore the apostle says, "to his own master he stands or falls".

A.N.W. "For we shall all be placed before the judgment-seat of God". That should sober us all.

J.T. "Be placed" there, too; that is a very solemn fact. Some other hand places you there.

J.A.P. Is this the same as the judgment-seat of Christ?

J.T. It is the judgment-seat of Christ, according to the King James version, but in the better rendering it is the judgment-seat of God, which is in keeping with Romans. It would be the same seat and at the same time as is alluded to in 2 Corinthians 5, where it is

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called the judgment-seat of Christ; but Romans is stressing God, so that we have the gospel of God, the righteous judgment of God, the righteousness of God, the love of God, and so on. As remarked, 2 Corinthians 5 should be read in conjunction with chapter 14 of Romans.

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JUDGMENT (7)

1 Corinthians 1:1 - 3, 26 - 31; 1 Corinthians 2:1 - 16; 1 Corinthians 6:1 - 4

J.T. These scriptures have been selected so that the minds of the saints may be lifted up in regard to the subject that has been under consideration in these meetings. As the elevating thoughts in these scriptures come before us, we will be occupied with spiritual matters including, of course, intelligence. In chapter 5 we have sorrowful matters alluded to, but the thought is not to be occupied with these. The assembly itself is an entity but having a constitution of its own, and whilst it is collective, the second chapter will show that the individuals forming the assembly are in mind too, so that the passage makes room for the Spirit. We cannot have the Spirit really, or have part in it, except our minds are brought into it. In speaking of the assembly as first mentioned, the assembly of God, a peculiarly characteristic term, she has the mind of Christ. That is to say, the faculty by which we think and understand.

And then the passage in chapter 6 shows how the future will be brought to bear upon us now as to matters which relate to current conditions in the world, so that it is said to the Corinthians, "Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world?" That is to say, the world, not as a creation, but the persons that are in it, are responsible to God, for the saints shall judge them. And then as to angels, I suppose those that have not kept their first estate are in mind, the saints are to judge them too. "Are ye unworthy of the smallest judgments? Do ye not know that we shall judge angels?" So that it is this side of the matter that is in mind at this time, not to engage us with the ordinary side of the subjects of the epistle but with this thought of elevation, as to the assembly itself and of the persons who form it. It is said of them, "of him", (that is, of

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God) "are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". That is to say, our origin is from God in Christ. That is a wonderful thought. All these things enter into our formation and constitution.

R.W.S. Would the depravity of Corinth and the way they were led by dumb idols form a background to the dignity into which the gospel brought the Corinthians as being the assembly of God in that city?

J.T. Well, I would think so; it is the effect of the gospel that is in view. It is the idea of the constitution of the assembly; the assembly of God, giving it a great place in the administration of God in this world, because it is a matter of administrative service in localities -- how God has access to localities in this great institution called the assembly of God. It is not exactly the mystery, as elsewhere, but the assembly of God. It is what God has in certain places, and what He works out in the persons who form it. They are to consider their calling into the fellowship of God's Son and what they were outwardly in the government of God. God did not select the great people of this world, nor the nobles of this world. He selected those that were of little or no account in it. And we have to take account of that in order to be before God as to the service He has for us in the assembly. These things that God has made us in Christ are to show us the greatness of our constitution: "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God". It is not simply wisdom, but wisdom from God, because God is the great leading thought in the epistle. Christ is made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption. He links everything up so as to keep before us what we are and the resources that are available to us.

And so what develops in the second chapter is to make a way for the operations of the Spirit. It is a question of the Spirit, and the greatness of the things, that "eye

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has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him". The love of God is brought into it, which is a peculiar touch to the whole position; it is those who love God, and what He prepares for them. And so it goes on, "but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God". So that we are reminded of the full range of things in which God has set us. Then it goes on: "For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God. But we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God: which also we speak". So that we are led on to the statement, "For who has known the mind of the Lord, who shall instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ". The mind alludes to the power of thought, the thinking faculty that we have; showing the elevating character of instruction furnished in the chapter. All this will work out in the coming day in the judgment in which we shall have part -- judging the world and judging angels.

A.R. Did you say that the local assembly is the sphere where God is operating at the present time?

J.T. It is, in a limited sense, whereas the general thought of the dispensation, as to operation, is universal; that is to say, the sphere of it is the expanse, which is available for God's operations.

A.R. The first chapter refers to the wisdom of God and the power of God. Do we see these in the local assemblies?

J.T. Yes; only the general feature is seen in chapter 12.

T.N.W. What was in your mind in the word 'constitution'?

J.T. What gives character to the assembly as the vessel of testimony.

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C.A.M. The fact that we have been given that, and the expression to which you were referring -- "we have the mind of Christ" -- tests us as to whether we use what is available.

J.T. Well, quite so; we have the mind of Christ in the sense of the Spirit operating.

A.N.W. How comprehensive is that 'we'? I notice it is emphatic. I suppose it is relative with the 'we' in verse 12: "But we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God, that we may know the things which have been freely given to us of God". It is not specially apostolic, is it, but more general?

J.T. It is constitutional, alluding to the character of the assembly; the exalted character of the assembly in power of thought. Of course, the Lord's supper, which we have often spoken of in this sense, enters into that; the remembrance has the force of a calling to mind.

J.T.Jr. Is the term, "the assembly of God", as used in verse 2, objective? If so we have to keep that in mind, over against the possible conditions that might be in a local meeting.

J.T. The objective thought in the first nine verses of the first chapter really does not imply that it was characteristic of each person; it is simply to make way for the teaching of the epistle. The basis is that all these things were there in the objective sense. So that it is said, "I thank my God always about you, in respect of the grace of God given to you in Christ Jesus; that in everything ye have been enriched in him" (notice that it is "in him"), "in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge". That has to be understood abstractly because it is not confirmed in the actual working out of the epistle. There was very great defect in them; so that God presents the whole matter in a very generous way as giving them credit for having these things, but it is only "in Christ"; the objective is in Christ.

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F.H.L. Who has he in mind when he says that they spoke wisdom among them that are perfect?

J.T. To such as the Ephesians, I would think: "But we speak wisdom among the perfect; but wisdom not of this world". That is to say, the perfect would be such saints as the Ephesians. They are seen in Scripture, I think, as the acme of Paul's work, and hence, Ephesus is the first assembly mentioned in the special writings of the Lord in the book of Revelation.

J.A.P. This epistle was written from Ephesus, was it not?

J.T. That is right.

A.I. How was the testimony here confirmed in them? It says, "as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you", verse 6. Was that brought about through the teaching of the apostle?

J.T. It would be, but it is more general, and intended to bring out the greatness of the position in the objective sense. An objective way of presenting things in the first chapter is used which has to be understood and carried through in later inquiry. They are viewed as 'confirmed'.

A.N.W. As to the Corinthians themselves, he has to say (chapter 3: 1), "I, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ".

J.T. Yes, and so they were not up to the objective thought. But the idea of the objective is quite intelligible to us, or ought to be, as presented in this epistle.

R.W.S. The constitution of the assembly survives the public breakdown, does it not?

J.T. You use the word 'survive'. What is your further thought?

R.W.S. That what is in Christ goes through. And I wondered if there is not some relationship between the foundation of God standing sure and the constitution and dignity of the assembly standing, too.

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J.T. I think that is very good and works out more clearly what is in mind as to the objective side in the early part of the first chapter. You could not have the assembly at all unless we kept in mind the abstract thought of the constitution of it. The thing goes through in the sense of the Spirit being here. The Spirit is here constantly from the time He came. One of the greatest facts we can have before us is the assurance, the Spirit being here, of the assembly going through, according to 1 Thessalonians 4.

S.W. Would you say there are those in local assemblies that would answer to these thoughts that are set forth objectively here? I have in mind such as the house of Chloe.

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. Was it the divine mind that these capital cities should be taken up in view of the testimony? I understand that this city was the capital of Achaia, Thessalonica the capital of Macedonia, Ephesus the capital of the province of Asia, and Rome the capital city of the empire. Was it in the divine thought to take these points into the testimony?

J.T. I would say so, that God was making His selections to set His testimony in them. All these places that you have mentioned were existing then, therefore we can deal with them as existent, in working out the truth.

A.R. Will judgment mark the world to come? And will the government of God be seen operating through the assembly, whereas, now, it should be seen in every locality where the assembly is?

J.T. Yes. The testimony now is in the assembly. The testimonial time, therefore, is very brief. That is to say, God is taking up this and that city just for a short time to set out His testimony in them. In the millennium it will be for 1,000 years and in the eternal state it will be permanent. There will be a session of judgment as to

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the world and as to angels; and the assembly clearly will have part in all these great matters.

A.B.P. How are the features spoken of in chapter 1: 30 appropriated? It says, "who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption".

J.T. Well, it would be a question, I suppose, of ministry. It is only the fact here, not how it has been arrived at in detail. "Of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". It is just the fact that is mentioned, but it is enough that we have the fact that these thoughts are in Christ. But you have something more in your mind.

A.B.P. Well, I thought that they seem to be held out for spiritual response in the hearts of us all, and I would like to avail myself of them.

J.T. Just so. They are great facts for the whole assembly; a basis for operation, so that we should be perfected in the truth.

J.T.Jr. These four things mentioned are, of themselves, great fundamental truths: wisdom from God, righteousness, holiness, and redemption. Each one of them is a cardinal part of the truth.

J.T. Quite so, showing how those of us who have returned to the truth in any measure, having come out of the systems of men, can look for something for God; because we are more able to enter into the truth and work it out, the Spirit helping us. This is something extremely important in the mind of heaven, because God has what He can use to work out His thoughts according to His mind.

A.T.D. Would the "of him" in verse 30 of chapter 1 have a link with the assembly of God in verse 2?

J.T. Quite so. The "of" in verse 2 has the same force as it has in verse 30.

A.N.W. Does not the last remark in chapter 1 show

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that these other more or less virtues are not in ourselves, so that the boasting is alone in the Lord. "He that boasts, let him boast in the Lord".

J.T. Yes, so that if there is any rejoicing or boasting it is because of what is in the Lord; not so much because of what His work is effecting in our souls by the Spirit. The epistle will deal with the work of the Spirit later on. For the moment it is the great general thought of chapter 1.

T.E.H. Will you help us in regard to the suggestion of redemption? Does that secure the persons?

J.T. Well, it does; we are redeemed, and the Lord thus owns us. We are His property.

T.E.H. I was thinking of the future, in relation to the securing of believers' bodies.

J.T. Well, if you look at Romans 8 you will see that salvation of our bodies is spoken of there, verse 23. Thus the complete man is secured through redemption; not only the body and soul, but the man; the word salvation covers the whole man.

A.B.P. Would you say that, as we sit in care and as we ask the Lord to be with us, this principle or feature of wisdom from God is made available to us in relation to the matters that are under consideration?

J.T. Well, I would say that there is more than that, because all that is mentioned in verse 30 is present and is there in some sense. The Lord Himself is with us. "Of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who is made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". It has some concrete application to each believer, and I think that gives us moral power. All these things are to be used together. Thus we have the means for carrying on, and being what God's mind is as to us.

C.A.M. We have the things mentioned potentially.

J.T. Yes, the brethren have a mind. The first thing we should begin with in our christian experience is the

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Lord's supper. We are supposed to have a mind; so it is for a calling of the Lord to mind. Well, that is the basis of all that follows.

A.I. Do you think Abigail had the mind of God in relation to David? In speaking of David she said that God would build him a sure house.

J.T. Yes. Abigail could not have had very much acquaintance with David; whatever she did have, it would all be objective, but nevertheless she had something that would be attributable to her subjectively as to her thoughts of David. And so he says to her, "blessed be thy discernment".

E.T.P. In chapter 5, when the apostle Paul was seeking to help the brethren in relation to a certain matter, he says, "Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, according as ye are unleavened", verse 7.

J.T. That is an abstract thought -- purging out something, and yet the Corinthians were unleavened; 'as ye are unleavened'. It is not as ye ought to be, but as ye are; that is abstract.

A.R. Do you think that what is in Christ Jesus is beyond what can be corrupted?

J.T. Well, I would say that. It is objective truth.

A.R. The apostle Paul uses the expression "in Christ Jesus" a great deal in his second epistle to Timothy.

F.S.C. Would His being "made to us" mean that the four things mentioned in chapter 1: 30 are personified in Christ?

J.T. He is made them to us. We might say that it is through ministry, in some sense, but it is just the fact that the things are there. The personification in Christ of these four things is a little too much to say. It is a question of Christ being made these things to us.

D.P. Would the constitution, which Paul is bringing forward here, become the means by which everything is tested in the assembly? It is final.

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J.T. I would go with that fully. In the first chapter it is more abstract, but nevertheless in some sense it is final, because it is the mind of God for the assembly.

F.H.L. The second chapter starts, "And I ..." Is the apostle beginning to work things out as among them, in that sense?

J.T. He says, "And I, when I came to you, brethren, came not in excellency of word, or wisdom, announcing to you the testimony of God. For I did not judge" (note the word judge) "I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified". That is, he wanted to be very simple amongst them, not showing very much depth, as if a simple christian, so that the Corinthians should be able to take in all he had to say. In going to a meeting amongst them he would not make a show of learning; he would speak so that they would understand him. When he came to them it was not in excellency of word or wisdom announcing to them the testimony of God. But he shows the wisdom in which the apostolic service was carried on.

J.T.Jr. He had certain caution as taking account of the character of the place. He says, "I did not judge ...", which would mean that he would think over what he should say in Corinth.

A.N.W. They were babes in Christ. He gives the status that they were babes, but in Christ.

J.T. The Lord's word to him about Corinth was, "no one shall set upon thee to injure thee; because I have much people in this city", Acts 18:10. Paul would understand from the Lord's remarks that he was to stay there and go through things with them, beginning with the very rudiments, as it were, and bringing them on to the full thought of christianity. Hence he was there eighteen months, which is remarkable. I was down in the south recently for a good few weeks, but if I had been there eighteen months I would think that I

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had been a very long time there; longer than I should be, and am sure most of us would think that too. But the facts show us that Paul was a long time in Corinth, and did not hesitate to be a long time there, so as to gain all that the Lord had in mind, for there was "much people". I do not know how many saints were in the assembly there but, as the Lord says, "much people", we may conclude that there was a large assembly. It was a very great matter in the Lord's mind to secure every believer that was there.

A.R. What was abstract, as to the Corinthians, in chapter 1 was true in the apostle. In chapter 2 he says that his ministry was "in demonstration of the Spirit and of power", and then he goes on to say that the faith of the Corinthians might not stand in men's wisdom but in God's power.

J.T. Well, that goes to show that he wanted them to get the whole truth and that it should be presented to them in demonstration of the Spirit, so that their faith should stand in the power of God.

C.W.M. How would you reconcile the third verse of chapter 2 with what has been said in relation to the constitution of the assembly?

J.T. Well, he says, "I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling; and my word and my preaching, not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power". That is, he was there so as to be intelligible to them; to be amongst them as one of themselves, as it were, and so that they should be without fear in listening to him and asking questions. I think that is the idea; a brother to be helpful gets down to where the brethren are.

R.W.S. How do you get what you minister in a place? Is it when you get to the place, or does the Lord give something before arriving?

J.T. Well, it is a question of what you are dealing with; if you are going to have meetings for three days,

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well, that is not to be merely local; you take in the facts, and your mind gauges how matters should be; you have to be more universal in your outlook than if it were merely a Saturday afternoon with just one or two meetings to be entered upon; the scope is not so great. Three-day meetings are a great matter and require great attention; you might need to begin a long time before. But the Lord will be with you; because He is very gracious and comes down to where we are. He knows what we need to prepare in view of the persons who may attend. The work of God calls for our full attention and requires freshness. Thus it must be not only a question of study. The persons likely to be present must be considered, also the districts, whence they come. The occasion is more to the Lord than it can be to the brother who is to serve, thence much time should be taken and thoughtfulness. A meeting like we have this afternoon, to speak simply, is not a great matter requiring much consideration beforehand. As a matter of fact I did not have much time and hence had to hasten, but the Lord has helped. He knows where we are and what we have to do and comes down to us. The Lord would give us to understand that He knows us thoroughly and is with us as we are with Him. Indeed the Spirit says, "even as he is, we also are in this world", 1 John 4:17. It is also said, "we have the mind of Christ". We are like Him in that sense and He is like us too.

J.T.Jr. Would what you have in mind all enter into this thought of the demonstration and Paul's attitude amongst the Corinthians? Paul's ministry would be that -- a demonstration of the Spirit.

J.T. Yes, it was marked by a demonstration of the Spirit and power.

A.N.W. That he was with them "in weakness and in fear and in much trembling" was his own election, was it not? He elected to be that way.

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J.T. That is just what he indicates. His attitude in that sense was deliberate. It was to the end that the Corinthians should understand that he was not simply one that had power over them because of his ability, but was capable of getting to where they were in order that the truth should reach them and affect them.

R.W.S. So this 'much trembling' was not nervousness; it is not of faith to be unduly nervous or upset before a meeting, is it?

J.T. Quite; Paul was great enough to be normal in his feelings in any anxiety he had as to the saints or the results of his ministry.

S.M. In Ephesus the apostle fought with beasts; that was the position there; but here he speaks of being in fear and trembling. He could adapt himself to whatever there was in the place, do you think?

J.T. One just wonders how Paul would be literally in all these cases that he presents to us. If you were there, what would you see? How real these circumstances were to him!

E.A.L. I think you have helpfully said that in view of extended meetings one might have a line of doctrine or truth, but the detail would be left for the Spirit as the time arrived. It is said in our chapter that "the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God".

J.T. Well, quite so.

E.A.L. So that a brother need not be upset or confused if certain details that he had in mind do not open up. There is a danger in having all the detail worked out beforehand.

J.T. Just so; you must leave room for the Spirit and He may indicate something that was not thought of. The Spirit brings out things we never thought of, so that we should always have our minds open for His services.

A.I. Do you think there is a possibility with us that our faith may stand in men's wisdom? It says, in

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chapter 2: 5, "that your faith might not stand in men's wisdom, but in God's power".

J.T. Well, quite; the apostle was concerned that their faith should stand in the power of God. And in these cases we just have to visualise what he went through; what apostolic ministry Paul had. The supreme idea of the mind of God as to anything is seen in Paul.

D.P. Would this approach make him an object of ridicule to the Corinthians?

J.T. No doubt. But you could not be sure that the person who said that his bodily presence was weak said the truth, because he was an opposer.

C.A.M. The apostle could have gone with a rod. That would have been a more deliberate way -- just the opposite of this, I suppose.

J.T. Just so; not a literal rod, of course, but some means of making them feel things in a spiritual sense, as a rod would make them feel things physically.

J.T.Jr. Would the apostle be in touch with the brethren in this way by the Spirit? Is it not right to try to link on in the Spirit with the brethren in a meeting? As sitting amongst the brethren we should be in touch with them, in a spiritual sense; as it says here, "thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God", verse 11.

J.T. Sitting amongst them, as you say, the Spirit would be ready to operate. Well, I have heard of a person who would rehearse all he would say in the meeting, before the meeting. I would be ashamed to do that.

A.T.D. When the apostle Paul was in Athens his spirit was painfully excited, but when he got to Areopagus he was bold in presenting the gospel.

J.T. It was a good word too; one that we often quote. I am glad that you mention that. It gives an idea of what apostolic ministry was -- how the apostle acted according to circumstances, and was ready for

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things coming up that he had not anticipated; because the matter was put upon him suddenly.

S.M. Paul refers to himself as a wise architect; would that fit in with what we are saying?

J.T. Very much. An architect would lay down his plans; he would know the measure of the structure to be built. Paul would think much of what was needed at Corinth, I am sure. The development of the truth from his point of view extended over many years. It did not take place at once. We have the twelve first, and then the thing went on for a good many years according to the book of Acts. It took years until the whole truth was developed. Of course, God helped throughout and so we have the truth in perfect accuracy.

A.R. Verse 10 of our chapter reads, "the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God". I suppose we have to make room for the Spirit to search out things in such meetings as this.

J.T. That shows how universal the thought was: He "searches all things", not simply things such as christians getting relief in their consciences and the like, but the depths of God. Think of that! That is not what happens in a christian's soul; it is what happens in the depths of God. How wonderful that is!

R.W.S. Is it greater, in a sense, to judge things now in the time of testimony than in the millennium?

J.T. Well, I think it is. The present is greater than the millennial period. But returning to our scriptures, I believe all that precedes is in mind in coming to the sixth chapter; so the apostle says, "Dare any one of you, having a matter against another, prosecute his suit before the unjust, and not before the saints?" And now he is going to tell us that we are going to judge the world. That is to say, he has laid down the basis of all that beforehand; he has already laid the basis of judgment. Think of judging the world! What world is it? It is the world, I believe, in the abstract sense; the

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world of history, that has to be judged, but at the same time it is a world of education and that sort of thing, and we have to take account of all that; to judge it. We have ability to have part in the judgment of it. Paul had laid the basis for all this before he reaches the thought of judging the world. And then we are to judge angels. We know very little about them. But the apostle inquires, "Do ye not know that we shall judge angels?"

A.N.W. Would you say a word as to how the saints, as judging the world, stand related to the appointed Man who will judge the habitable earth. "God ... has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed". I wondered whether the Lord would exercise that judgment through the saints.

J.T. The saints judging the world, as stated in our chapter, does not mean that the judgment of the world will be left wholly to them. Christ has been appointed to judge the world and the saints will have part in it. That is what I understand. The same principle, in the sense of blessing, is seen in Ephesians 1Christ is given to be Head over all things to the assembly. It has part in the headship.

R.H.S. Is that in keeping with the One that judges and makes war in Revelation 19?

J.T. Well, it is; that is a military idea however; here it is a question of judgment.

C.F.E. Would you say that chapter 6: 1, 2, puts the saints in a dignified position as to judgment?

J.T. Yes; when you are called upon to judge the world, or to have part in it, you will know, but what do we know about it now? What are we doing about it now? Sometimes I say that I have a judgment about everyone I know, especially the brethren, and maybe myself, and you may think of me in that sense; but we should think of each other in a gracious, generous way. We want to think of each other rightly, as God does.

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It is a question of God and men; we finally come to that in the book of Revelation: "the tabernacle of God is with men", chapter 21: 3.

J.A.P. Is this matter of judging the world the result of our judging ourselves? We have learned to judge ourselves.

J.T. Just so; know yourself and God, know God first, of course, and then yourself. In judging myself I have a true judgment of what man should be before God. I think that is the way to get practical help -- to have right thoughts; and God can use you on those lines, because He is going to deal with men as such and use us in judging them.

A.B.P. In the gospels, the Lord invariably left an impression of God upon the minds of His hearers, did He not? It was so, even with those who tempted Him, such as: "Pay therefore what is Caesar's to Caesar, and what is God's to God.", Luke 20:25. Is that the basis of right judgment?

J.T. Just so. God has made men with a mind and with a spirit. From the very outset man, becoming a being, had a mind and a spirit. God has therefore a being before Him that He can judge and that He can use for judgment. That is what is in mind here as to ourselves, that we are to judge the world. Well, that is a great word, you know -- a great thought as to the world and all that inhabit it at any given time, and the persons that are capable of judging them. For instance, if we consider the Asiatics at the present time; suppose any one of us were called upon to judge all the men of Asia! Well, that is a great thought, but not too great for God, nor for those who form the assembly.

W.W.M. You spoke of having a judgment about one another. Is not that the proper idea in relation to our intelligent prayer for one another? How could we pray for one another unless we had a judgment of each other? Do you think that is right?

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J.T. I do think it is right. We should have a judgment about each other; not a critical, adverse judgment, but what God would give us as having His Spirit.

A.MacD. Would those of the household of Chloe have a right judgment and in that way help in the apostle's judgment of conditions at Corinth?

J.T. Just so; not only Chloe herself, but the persons of her household; they would be able to talk about things in a true sense, not as mere tattle, but in their true importance. So that the house of Chloe would give information to Paul, and he valued it and used it.

A.B.P. It will be interesting to hear what the Queen of Sheba will say when she rises up in judgment with the generation that refused Christ.

J.T. Well, quite so. The Lord says, "A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation", Matthew 12:24.

A.B.P. Do you think that it will be some positive impression of what she has gained from Solomon?

J.T. Yes. I would say that fully. Some of us were thinking about that in Australia recently. It is "A queen of the south". The south is one of the most important parts of the earth today; I refer to that because of the number of brethren that are in it. Australia is further south than the area that the Queen of Sheba occupied, I know, but the Lord linked her with the south.

D.P. Would it be right to say that, while man has lost his state of innocency, he has gained, in recovery, through the knowledge of good and evil, a judgment of evil, and appreciation for what is good?

J.T. Man, as a christian, has -- for that is what you mean -- because a christian is enlightened, has a conscience and can judge things accordingly.

R.W.S. Will the judgment of the world be done rapidly, do you think?

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J.T. Well, if we go by the angel of Revelation 14 who preaches the everlasting gospel, I would say it will be done rapidly. He flies in mid-heaven. I do not think God will use a great period of time in specific judgment. The book of Revelation indicates the contrary. (Compare Revelation 11).

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JUDGMENT (8)

1 Corinthians 3:1 - 23

J.T. We were reminded on the last occasion that chapter 1 has a certain distinguishing character; that is, the truth is presented abstractly; hence the statements beginning with verse 4: "I thank my God always about you, in respect of the grace of God given to you in Christ Jesus; that in everything ye have been enriched in him, in all word of doctrine, and all knowledge (according as the testimony of the Christ has been confirmed in you), so that ye come short in no gift, awaiting the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ". It was remarked, as already said, that there is an abstract character to this passage, making it really objective truth, but so stated in order to lay the basis of what the apostle had in his mind to bring forth in regard to local conditions. Therefore it might be wondered that the beginning of this chapter 3 says, "I, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ. I have given you milk to drink, not meat, for ye have not yet been able, nor indeed are ye yet able; for ye are yet carnal". Now these statements may cause some inquiry as compared with what we have read from the first chapter, but what has been said is important to bear in mind, that the first chapter deals with the truth in the abstract, and this chapter deals with the actual state of things in Corinth.

A.B.P. Is it possible that the condition or state of some may be used as representative of the company, so that the apostle may rightly speak of a higher state than existed in the main, having the few in mind?

J.T. I think that is possible, especially when we take notice of such a person as Chloe (chapter 1: 11), "For it has been shewn to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of the house of Chloe, that there are

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strifes among you". Apparently she would be one that lived there who was reliable, and of course there may have been many others; we would trust so. But at the same time what has been remarked about the first chapter as compared with this is to be noted, that there was generally a very low state amongst them. And the second epistle brings out that there was a very serious condition, in a way one of the worst conditions imaginable; so that you wonder at it. Paul says, he had the readiness to avenge all disobedience (a very strong word) when their obedience was fulfilled; that is, when the mass of the brethren got right. So that we have to look at what is actually said here and seek to bring the truth home to ourselves according to what is said. There may be those here who are fleshly. We would not imply that, only we have to face the actual facts that there were a large number of such in Corinth. And, of course, there are a goodly number of brethren here in this city, so that the question is as to what their state is. The thought is not to drag the brethren down to occupation with a low state of things, but to elevate them out of it as much as possible. Still, we have to face the facts.

A.R. It says in verse 3, "there are among you emulation and strife". That does not include everybody, does it? I suppose that would make allowance for such as the house of Chloe?

J.T. Yet the word was for everybody. She would have to listen to it if she were there; but undoubtedly she felt everything, and of course that is a great matter. We can confidently count that in every gathering of the saints there are those who are reliable. On the other hand there may be those who are not, and we have to bear them in mind.

A.N.W. Is there a distinction to be noted between "the natural man" in chapter 2: 14, and the carnal state here in our chapter as being that which is blameworthy?

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What is merely natural may not be exactly blameworthy.

J.T. I would think so. Carnal is a word, of course, that may refer to what is natural as well; but there is a difference in that the word carnality makes a very bad suggestion.

C.A.M. Is it not a fact that the word carnal may be applied to those who really have the Spirit, while "the natural man" in verse 14 of the previous chapter does not have the Spirit?

J.T. Just so. The word fleshly in verse 1, according to the footnote in the New Translation, is said to mean 'properly the material -- the composition of a thing'. That is important. The word carnal occurs twice in verse 3 and, as the footnote says, is 'used, in some places, to express either material or physical or moral ideas'. So that the words carnal and natural run together.

J.T.Jr. The words cover a great deal as related to our natural proclivities; this may enter into our part in the things of God.

J.T. It becomes quite solemn that it appears just here in view of our subject, the saints being the temple of God, the shrine, the place in which God is to be apprehended and known and inquired of. So the apostle says, "I have given you milk to drink, not meat, for ye have not been able, nor indeed are ye yet able; for ye are yet carnal. For whereas there are among you emulation and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk according to man? For when one says, I am of Paul", and so on. So that we have a concrete example here that they were partisans; the saints were apparently divided into parties in the meeting. That, of course, is liable to reappear now. We can thank God that we cannot say it is current amongst us here, but it is well to look into it, and to inquire if there is any likelihood of it.

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W.A.T. He calls them carnal, and for that reason he gives them milk to drink. In Hebrews we are told that those that partake of milk are unskilled in the word of righteousness. Is that a feature of the carnal mind, that it is unskilled in the word of righteousness?

J.T. Well, it would seem so; the passage that you quote is quite in keeping with what we are saying; that is, it refers to persons who are either in a low state or not christians at all. And it is quite possible that there are many among the Lord's people, who are in fellowship, who really have not the Spirit, and it ought to be looked into by each of us as to whether each of us has the Spirit.

E.A.L. Is this emulation independency?

J.T. It would be the spirit of rivalry, I would think, amongst the Corinthians.

A.R. The only way to get into the shrine in Solomon's temple would be by the Spirit, in type, would it not? The two doors to the holiest were made of olive wood.

J.T. Very good, showing that the Spirit was in mind.

A.R. So that everyone who would enter there must have the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so. There were folding doors in Solomon's temple, suggesting the thought of familiarity and confidence in one another amongst us.

J.T.Jr. We get the expression "the things of the Spirit of God", in the previous chapter. That would mean those things that are related to the Spirit of God. The natural man cannot receive them.

J.T. Thus, unless we judge what is mere nature, although we may be in fellowship nominally, we have not yet received the Spirit. In a later book it speaks of certain persons "not having the Spirit", Jude 19.

A.R. Paul said to the twelve men at Ephesus, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" as if there was a question as to it in his mind.

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J.T. He did not ask whether they were sealed, although there is such a thing as sealing, as stated in 2 Corinthians 1:22. It was a question whether they had received the Spirit, showing how the Spirit is presented to us, to be received. So it is said, "how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13. How practical all that is! Each one should question himself as to whether he has the Spirit. There are ways and means of knowing whether we have the Spirit.

C.F.E. Do you look at this as rebuke, from the third verse on?

J.T. Most decidedly. "For whereas there are among you emulation and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk according to man?" It is not according to men, but according to man. It is characteristic. "For when one says, I am of Paul, and another, I of Apollos, are ye not men?"

J.H.H. Would loving the brethren be a proof of having the Spirit?

J.T. Very good. The fruits of the Spirit are given in Galatians 5; there are nine of these fruits mentioned. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control". Quite a range! So that we need not be at a loss to know whether we have the Spirit or not, and everyone should search himself on those lines. When you preach the gospel do you challenge people as to whether they have the Spirit?

J.H.H. I remember hearing several years ago that we do not mention the Spirit enough in our preachings. Would you agree?

J.T. I certainly would.

C.L.N. Is it right to preach Christ glorified?

J.T. Quite so. Do you mean that the apprehension of Christ glorified indicates that the person has the Spirit?

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C.L.N. Elijah says to Elisha, "if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so to thee". It was when Elisha had asked for a double portion of his spirit. That is a great matter.

J.H.E. Would you say that the eunuch saw Christ glorified and then he was ready for baptism? The preaching was so effective that he wanted no more place in this world; he was ready to leave this world.

J.T. Quite so. Now as to the query: Does preaching Christ glorified imply that one may have the Spirit if he believes; that is, if he believes in Christ glorified? Well, that is true to some extent; but at the same time Luke enlarges on the fact that the Spirit may be asked for from the Father who is of heaven and that the Father gives the Spirit.

F.S.C. One has often received great comfort from 1 John 4:12, 13: "if we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, that he has given to us of his Spirit".

J.T. There it is; "Hereby we know ... that he has given to us of his Spirit;" so that we may know that we have the Spirit. That is a good scripture.

J.T.Jr. In the reference to Ephesus which was made earlier, the question was, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" They had believed, but they had not received the Spirit, and that is possible, is it not?

J.T. Quite so; therefore it becomes a very wholesome question which one has often asked, as to whether a believer has the Spirit; whether, as believing the gospel, he also has the Spirit.

W.A.T. One has often wondered, in relation to the preaching of the gospel, whether it is good to challenge persons as to whether they have been born again, born of the Spirit. Should one do it?

J.T. Well, that is right, but it does not go far enough.

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Certain believers use the letters B.A. for born again, and I am afraid of it; it is too concise for the meaning that should be attached to the idea of being born again, because it is a transaction of the Spirit. But then it may be short of the possession of the Spirit, of the sealing of the Spirit. What do you say about that?

W.A.T. That is what I felt, but I wondered what you would say as to it.

J.T. I am glad you say that. But then what about the enlarging thought of the new birth? First it is, "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", John 3:3. Then, in verse 5, "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". Now these are concrete things, and persons who are seeking the truth ought to be reminded that it is a question, first of seeing, and second of entering.

J.A.P. Would the Holy Spirit save us from the parties you called attention to in this chapter? It says in chapter 12: 13, "For also in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bondmen or free, and have all been given to drink of one Spirit". Would that save us from what the Corinthians were saying, according to verses 4 and 5 of our chapter?

J.T. The we is emphatic; "we have all been baptised into one body, ... and have all been given to drink of one Spirit". It is not simply to be sealed, but to drink, showing the preference and the enjoyment that I have, the satisfaction that accrues to me by the reception of the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Another important thing in the twelfth chapter is that "no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit". That is a very searching matter, for many call Jesus, Lord. They take on certain phrases, but the whole point is whether it is by the Spirit. We have heard certain on the street corner say,

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'Hallelujah, praise the Lord!' Well, it is a question of the Spirit in Corinthians, and you could not say that all of these exclamations are in the Spirit.

E.A.L. You mean you cannot recognise the lordship of Christ unless you have the Spirit?

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so; no one can say Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit. It must be that same Spirit, as I understand it.

A.R. Is it possible for a person who has not the Spirit to say, Lord Jesus?

J.T. They might use the words, but the question is, does it come from the heart? The title "the Lord Jesus" is a beautiful phrase in itself. It refers to affection, I think peculiar affection. The word Jesus being added to the title, Lord, as showing that the heart is touched. "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit", Stephen says, Acts 7:59.

A.B.P. Is the Spirit involved in the word in 2 Timothy? "The Lord knows those that are his".

J.T. Well, they would be His even though they did not have the Spirit; I mean, as a question of property. If they were born again they would be His in that sense, but, "the Lord knows those that are his" would include all that belong to Him.

A.B.P. I wondered if the knowing there would be an active thing, not just a matter of accepted knowledge, but used in the same sense as when the Lord says, "I do not know you", Luke 13:27. Does the knowledge in 2 Timothy mean a personal living contact and transaction?

J.T. Of course, it would be absolutely right if the Lord said it. He knows those who are His property, the thousands, we might say, in christendom that belong to Him. The Lord knows every one of them, but they may not have the Spirit.

A.N.W. How far does that word go, "if any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him"? Romans 8:9.

J.T. That is a very solemn matter, and it comes in

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peculiarly there, because the point there is to bring out the service of the Spirit. The Spirit is mentioned about thirteen times in the eighth chapter of Romans, and it is to bring out that He characterises christianity.

C.L.N. Is the title Lord Jesus peculiar to the assembly?

J.T. I think so. If anyone looks into the usage of it, as no doubt you have done, he will be touched by the fact that affection for the Lord is implied. Take, for instance, the words in Act 20:35 that the apostle spoke to the elders: "remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that he himself said, It is more blessed to give than to receive".

A.N.W. The canon of Scripture closes with the term in Revelation 22, "Amen; come, Lord Jesus".

T.E.H. We may not all be able to evidence all of the nine fruits of the Spirit in Galatians 5, but most of us should exhibit something of the last fruit, self-control. The youngest believer would be helped by the Spirit as to that. Our demeanour and deportment in general should show self-control.

J.T. Very important, and very practical, too.

A.R. I have wondered, in regard to the Holy Spirit, if we are not defective in speaking about the meaning of the fire. Matthew 3:11 says of the Lord, "he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire". There was fire at Pentecost, too: "there appeared ... parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them".

J.T. There is an allusion to fire here in our chapter that we might link up: "If the work of any one shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he shall be saved, but so as through the fire". And verse 13 says that "the work of each shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire shall try the work of each what it is". The test to which our work shall be subjected bears on this question of the Spirit.

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J.T.Jr. Do you not think that the light that comes out in the temple should govern our judgments in matters that come up amongst us? We recently had need for the assertion of the truth as to the powers that be, in Romans 13. There it is a question of the light that is in the temple governing this great matter.

J.T. That is good, and is, perhaps, needed by some of us here in this city. We may assume that the powers that be are to be regarded just as the world is, but that is not so at all, because they represent God, they are ordained of God.

J.C. The Lord Jesus brings all the truth before us in John 16, saying that the Spirit of truth shall guide us into all the truth.

J.T. Well, there is nothing more important than that, because we are supposed to have the Spirit amongst us now, this evening. And what we are saying to one another ought to be governed by the temple, just as we have been remarking. It is a question of temple light, not simply what the Scripture says of itself, but what may be brought out by the Spirit at this present moment, something that perhaps we have never considered so carefully before. That is the idea of the present action of the Spirit and the temple of God. A question might bring it out. So we can see the importance of asking questions and asking them properly, and in an orderly way, and answering them, too.

J.T.Jr. If carnal conditions are present, they will rather hinder the matter, but if there are spiritual conditions, they will lead to the thoughts of God coming in.

C.A.M. Will you say something about the sentence in verse 12: "Now if any one build upon this foundation ..." and then it gives certain materials, speaking about the work of each.

J.T. Well now, as seeking to move in an orderly

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way in the chapter and get the benefit of it, we have already touched on the partisan conditions which the apostle rebukes. Then he goes on to say, verse 6, "I have planted; Apollos watered; but God has given the increase. So that neither the planter is anything, nor the waterer; but God the giver of the increase. But the planter and the waterer are one; but each shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". I think that is a very important thing for every one of us who is labouring in the Lord's field, because there is a reward attached to our labour. And then he says, verse 9, "For we are God's fellow-workmen; ye are God's husbandry, God's building. According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it. But let each see how he builds upon it. For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ". So that we have now before us these great facts of the work of God in the foundational sense, and men actually engaged in the work, and that God is saying, I will give you wages, you are not going to be working for Me for nothing. Heaven does not hire anybody that it does not pay for his work. So that we get reward. At the same time there are these great facts of God's husbandry, God's building; that is what the saints are.

F.N.W. If anyone is engaged in the work of the Lord today, by the Spirit, will he be in accord with the idea of the wise architect?

J.T. Well, he should be; it is a question of the plan. No man would take on a contract for a building unless he begins with the blue-print, as we say. The plan is laid out and then he must know what the work is that is to be done, and the material to be used, and the dimensions. These are great spiritual matters and the Spirit of God is graciously laying them before us.

T.E.H. Why does the agricultural suggestion come

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first before the architect and the construction of the building?

J.T. There is a word in Proverbs that says, "Prepare thy work without, and put thy field in order, and afterwards build thy house", Proverbs 24:27. Therefore the idea of the agricultural comes first and then the building. The agricultural matter is a support to the family, and then comes the building where they live. So we have the two thoughts, agriculture and building.

J.T.Jr. Apollos watered; that is, his service followed Paul's, but he did not root the thing up. He supported, the ministry. The two of them were one, in that sense.

J.T. That is good.

A.B.P. When the Lord said to Paul, "I have much people in this city", did He leave a certain latitude with Paul as to how he would go about procuring them, and how he would put them together, which would require the help and guidance of the Spirit in what he did?

J.T. Well, I think that is good. It is a question therefore of going about from house to house. Mr. Darby used to go from house to house visiting the saints. That is the idea. Therefore, the idea here is that of building, of going to the saints who are the material for the building, so that we become acquainted with the brethren, their mode of living and the like, and as knowing them we know what is needed to deliver them and keep them in the Spirit.

C.L.N. Paul did that at Ephesus.

J.T. That is just what he did. He speaks of it in Acts 20, how he admonished them with tears, night and day, and from house to house. That chapter, I believe, contains a great pattern for every one of us who serves, particularly as beginning with love and ending with love; and in the middle there is love too. The embrace of Eutychus comes in the middle of the chapter.

F.H.L. Would it be right to connect what was given

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to Paul as a wise architect with what was committed to Moses and to David in relation to the tabernacle and the temple?

J.T. Exactly, and to Solomon too. God works by measure. We have the idea of measure in the second epistle. And so Moses worked by measure, he was a long time at it; and so did David; and so did Solomon; and so did Paul, who was a wise architect, a remarkable designation. The idea of architecture is in the eighth of Proverbs. According to the note there, the word nursling, in verse 30, may be rendered 'the nursling of his love', or, 'his artificer', showing the idea of love in architecture.

A.B.P. The thought of Paul being an architect seems to leave room for his skill in design. It would seem as though some detail of design at Corinth was left to the apostle.

J.T. He was not wanting in that.

A.B.P. Would that exemplify the way the servant would use the Spirit? In this same epistle he gives an opinion, which is not a commandment; still, he says, "I think that I also have God's Spirit".

J.T. It is the only place you get such an expression. It is in the seventh chapter of this epistle. Paul speaks of his own judgment, but he says, in principle, I believe I have the Spirit in my judgment. So that the architect in that sense has the Spirit; and that brings out the whole thought of what we call the shrine, the temple of God. The word shrine may be used to signify it.

G.H. Have you the architectural idea in connection with Eve? God took the rib out of Adam and built a woman.

J.T. That is right. It is the first time you get the word built in Scripture. Eve is the person who is built, meaning that the assembly is in mind.

T.E.H. In Exodus 31 there is the suggestion in connection with Bezaleel who had been filled with "the

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spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in every work to devise artistic work" in connection with the building of the tabernacle.

J.T. Showing the beautiful designs which God had in mind. It says of the Spirit, that He garnished the heavens, a wonderful thought; the heavens were garnished by the Spirit of God. And that shows how the idea that we are dealing with now is brought down amongst us; that is to say, among the saints that form the assembly, because all these great thoughts are to be worked out in us. It is a question of garnishing, of skill, the skill of order and the like worked out amongst us.

D.P.C. What is the thought of sealing that you brought out earlier in connection with the Spirit?

J.T. There are three thoughts there in 2 Corinthians 1:21: "Now he that establishes us with you in Christ", that is the first thing; "and has anointed us", the second; "... who also has sealed us", is third. Sealing is like God saying, You are my property, I put my stamp on you, everybody will know that you belong to Me. That is the idea, because everyone ought to be marked off by the divine pattern, the divine stamp.

J.T.Jr. It has great force there, because the verse concludes that God has "given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts". It is in our hearts.

J.T. So the thing is in the heart to make us joyous and rich. God is not dealing with poor people, spiritually. He does not want us to keep poor. He wants us to be enriched. So that we are sealed and have the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

F.H.L. So that in the third chapter he can say, "ye are the temple of God".

A.R. Would it be right to say that we do not know love apart from the Spirit? It says in Romans 5:5 that "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit".

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J.T. Quite so; and then if we love one another, it is a question of the power of the Spirit.

S.J.M. Would that verse in 1 John 3 fit in, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren"?

J.T. Just so, one can look into his heart and see what place the brethren have in his heart, and whether he is prejudiced about any of them. Because that is the test of love.

W.W.M. The apostle says at the end of chapter 14, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment". We can see that as a wise architect he is not only able to give us the plan but also the specifications. The plans are important but the specifications tell what goes into the structure.

A.N.W. Does all that signalise the apostle's position as compared with that of the twelve apostles of the Lamb in the foundations of the wall? Does he stand out signally in that way?

J.T. Well, I believe he was the greatest, although he speaks of himself as the least of the apostles because he persecuted the assembly; but he laboured more than they all; he says, "more abundantly than they all".

J.T.Jr. This thought, therefore, leads on to the assembly as judging. We have a word in Isaiah in regard to the spirit of judgment. It speaks of turning the battle to the gate where things are resolved according to the Spirit.

J.T. Turning the battle to the gate; the gate is significant there, the place where things are resolved.

J.T.Jr. So that in the care meeting the greatest judgments should come out, should they not? The temple having its place and part amongst us, the care meetings in all the localities would reach the same judgments.

J.T. So that in the last reading there was the allusion

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to verse 30 of the first chapter, "of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who has been made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness, and holiness, and redemption". That is to say, you get the filling out of things. Christ is made to us all these things. They are to be employed, carried down into the building, into the structure. There are four of them, wisdom from God, righteousness, holiness, and redemption. How balancing these thoughts are, especially in building! So here we have, "For we are God's fellow-workmen; ye are God's husbandry, God's building. According to the grace of God which has been given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it. But let each see how he builds upon it. For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ". It is as if Paul is saying, I am final in all that I am doing according to Christ's appointment as to me. Well, you might say, Why has Peter another word? The revelation he got was from the Father. But Paul has something here that is distinctive and that fits in at Corinth. The Lord says of Peter, "thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly". Peter had confessed that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God". That was Peter's confession, but that is not what you get here exactly. This is Paul's side of the truth, that of a man who knows the people he is dealing with. Matthew 16 is a question of the assembly in general, not locally, but in general, whereas here we are dealing with a local assembly and it is a question of the condition of it and the material in it, and how it is to be worked and dealt with.

J.T.Jr. So he had actually laid the foundation in Corinth, the thing was there in spite of these carnal conditions that existed.

J.T. Showing how real his work was in spite of the conditions. He laid the real foundation, and the foundation is said to be Jesus Christ. You may say

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that is different from what Peter says, but it is not different, it is another phase; it is Jesus Christ, not Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ is the Man that one might have met in Galilee at any time when He was here. And men like Him were in Corinth, and the idea is that they are there to be seen by anyone. Paul's work was made good in them so far, so that the Lord Himself says to Paul, "Fear not, ... I am with thee ... I have much people in this city", Acts 18:9. And that "much people" must be like Christ. The foundation is the Man, Jesus Christ.

F.S.C. That would be another order of man in contrast to the old man.

J.T. It would be so far, only it is not Christ Jesus, but Jesus Christ. That is to say, it is the Man that is to be known here; it is His name here in responsibility. Men see what He is in those who are like Him here. Christ is seen in us.

J.A.P. Is the Galilean position a test to us in our localities? Mark 16:7 says, "tell his disciples and Peter, he goes before you into Galilee". We have to take up the Galilean position, but they were reigning in Corinth.

J.T. Very good; and reigning without Paul. He said that he would that they did reign that he may reign with them; that is, we should then be in the millennium. But it was a question of Galilee; the disciples had to meet the Lord in Galilee.

R.H.S. Is there any link between this building and that in 1 Peter 2:5, "a spiritual house, a holy priesthood"? It has to do there with the things Paul speaks of here, laying aside malice, etc.

J.T. I would think so, only Peter is dealing with it in a general way, while Paul is dealing with a local company; but it is the same principle, it is a question of the material in the building and how it is utilised.

A.R. The work should be to build the same kind

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of man. The Lord said to Saul of Tarsus, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest". That is the kind of Man that is to be built into the structure here.

E.T.P. In Acts 1 the apostles are addressed, "Men of Galilee"; then in Acts 2 the Spirit comes upon them, and Peter says that Jesus, having been exalted, "has poured out this which ye behold and hear", as if it is something substantial in the saints.

J.T. And so Peter stands up at Jerusalem, not in Galilee, because Galilee was not chosen for the first preaching. Jerusalem was. And Peter was the first preacher, because it is said of him, "First Peter"; he was the first preacher. And he says, Listen to me. Evidently his voice rang out in Jerusalem, and he said, "give heed to my words", and there were three thousand converted at that preaching. So we can see what Peter was, and what Paul was. The Holy Spirit does not make so much of the number of Paul's converts but He does number Peter's: He says that there were three thousand added. It does not say converted; but added; that is, added to what was there, which was the handiwork of Christ. But Peter's addition was equal to it; they were added to what was there.

A.B.P. When Paul went to Corinth he said that he did not judge it well to know anything among them save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. I suppose that would be truly the Galilean position.

J.T. Quite so; and the Galilean position is a very important one because reproach was attached to it. The apostles were Galileans; the crowd said, "are not all these who are speaking Galileans?" Acts 2:7. They were known by their speech. But Jerusalem was the place where the learned ones were; they had sent to John the Baptist to inquire as to him and where he got his commission, but he said he was just a voice crying in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths". Well, that is the thing,

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and Paul is here making His path straight, making a way for the Lord.

A.B.P. Would the foundation being Jesus Christ have in mind what is formed in a positive inward way in the saints in relation to the temple and the service of God?

J.T. I think it is the ordinary effect of the testimony on Christians, that we are the same as He would be, as Luke presents Him. It says, "For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it", verse 11. It is the day, that is, it has its own place and importance, because fire enters into the day; everything will be tested fully at that time. So that Paul is aiming at first class work; he is the architect of the building and he wants it all according to his plan. Then all these things are mentioned: gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw. Well, you can see how the fire would deal with that material. It is a question of whether it will stand the test of the fire. If that be applied to New York, now, where there are so many nominal Christians, how will they fare when the test comes? And the test is coming.

S.J.M. There is a verse in the 45th Psalm: "her clothing is of wrought gold", as if it had stood the test.

J.T. That is the idea, wrought gold. David speaks about certain gold that he had, three thousand talents of it. He had a hundred thousand talents of other gold, but he had three thousand talents of the gold of Ophir, which is to be noted when we are dealing with this matter now.

F.N.W. It says further of David at the end of 1 Chronicles that he had passed on to Solomon what he had received by the Spirit. Is it important for us to pass on what we receive?

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J.T. Showing that David was not in a way so far behind Paul, because his labour involved the Spirit of God.

A.R. Do you think that what was at Pentecost was beyond the fire?

J.T. I think so; it was equal to the fire, it could be tested; and it was tested, too. So you get in Revelation 21 that the twelve apostles are in the foundation. They stood the test fully, we can say. How Paul valued these Corinthian saints! You wonder at the place they had in his affections. We were looking at the third chapter of the second epistle recently and noticing how Paul refers to what they were to him; he says, "Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men". That is the way he regarded them; wherever he went he would speak about the Corinthians. He would say, so to speak, You should come to Corinth and see the work that is there!

C.W.M. What we have been considering in this chapter as to the field, the planting and watering, then the foundation and the building, and then as to everything being tested by the fire, would all lead us to the temple.

J.T. Quite so, that is what he says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" Apparently they did not know, they were really greater than they understood. "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" So that the whole matter depends on the Spirit in that sense, that He dwelt in them, not simply that He was in them but He dwelt in them.

C.W.M. Would it, in that sense, come out in us day by day as we apply the fire of self-judgment to ourselves? In that way the truth of the holiness of the temple of God is seen coming out in us.

J.T. Exactly. Think of the greatness of the thought, too, of inquiring in His temple! The psalmist says, "that I may dwell in the house of the Lord ... and

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to inquire in his temple". That is what we are doing now, at this very moment. We are inquiring in the temple of God. It is a question, not only of the dear brethren being here, but of the fact that they have the Spirit. That makes them such a potential power in the meeting. Everyone of us having the Spirit! What a difference it makes if you have the same number of persons next door not having the Spirit; there could be no such meeting as this. It is a question of the Spirit and of the work of God in us; so that the temple is so advantageous that we may inquire in it.

W.W.M. When the apostle says, "ye are the temple", is it a collective idea?

J.T. Quite so, it is a question of the saints. Abstractly it is the whole company of the saints from Pentecost to the coming of the Lord; such is the vastness of it. If you look at Revelation 21 you see how vast it is: the length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. It is a solid thing.

A.E.W. Although there is the city position, there are the local gatherings where we have our local readings. Does the idea of the Spirit help us in the availability of the temple as we meet locally?

J.T. That is the idea. The Spirit of God is wonderfully lowly and comes to where the saints are in a great number or in a small number. We can count on Him being there. How comforting that is in small meetings, that we can count on His presence!

F.H.L. Is it right to speak of the "temple of God" in New York, or in Plainfield, in the light of the whole?

J.T. I think so, if we are not boastful about it, if we are lowly about it, that there is such a thing as that. Because God is saying that the whole matter of christianity still remains. It is a question of our finding out how it may be applied, and how it comes to the actual working of it.

J.A.P. Is everyone needed for this, not only

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the brothers that take part, as we do now?

J.T. All the saints are needed for the whole assembly. So you get the idea of the whole assembly coming together in one place in chapter 14, as if God would say, I want to get the best I have in Corinth, and I want you all to get together in one place at one time.

C.F.E. The apostle seems to give the Corinthians a very good standing here in verse 17: he says, "for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye".

J.T. And then, also, he speaks of the terribleness of anyone corrupting it! That is most solemn.

D.P. Would the temple at Corinth be the dwelling place of the Spirit over against the Greek temple, and the place where the Jews met?

J.T. That is the idea. If a simple person wrought upon by the Spirit of God came in among the saints he would fall down and worship God; he would be convicted of all and judged of all. That is what is contemplated in chapter 14.

A.P-f. Would you say a word about the believer's body being the temple of the Holy Spirit?

J.T. That is the way the Spirit of God is graciously reducing the thought to bring it down to one person. But one person cannot have the Spirit entirely, he has part in it. But in the assembly, the Spirit is an entire thought, just as He was in Christ. The entire thought of the Spirit was in Christ personally, and so He is in the assembly.

G.H. What is the thought of the names of the apostles in the foundations in the Revelation?

J.T. To bring out the quality of the foundation, that it is the handiwork of Christ. That is what the twelve apostles were. Paul is not mentioned.

E.A.L. The Spirit being in the assembly, if one should take up the attitude of not going with accepted assembly truths, he really elects himself out of the sphere of the Spirit's operations.

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J.T. How solemn that is! In John 3:34 it says that God gives not His Spirit by measure to Christ, and the same applies to the assembly; the Spirit is not given by measure to it, the Spirit is here in the entire sense, a very great thought.

W.T.P. So that it is no longer a question of milk, we are able to take meat as in this position.

J.T. It says in verse 18: "Let no one deceive himself: if anyone thinks himself to be wise among you in this world, let him become foolish, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written, He who takes the wise in their craftiness. And again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise that they are vain. So that let no one boast in men; for all things are yours". Now I want the dear brethren to think of what is in our hands, how it is regarded by Paul; "all things", he says, "are yours". "Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things coming, all are yours; and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's". Is not that wonderful! The Lord would say that to us.

D.P. Do you think there is a danger of placing one servant over against another?

J.T. There might be, but Paul is putting them where they should be. They belong to the saints. "Ourselves your bondmen", he says, "for Jesus' sake". The servants belong to the saints in that sense. Of course, they also belong to God.

C.A.M. Does he not give them a very dignified designation in saying that they are God's fellow-workmen? That would call for great respect.

J.T. That is what the servants are, and now the saints themselves possess the servants, as it were. They are their property, "ourselves your bondmen for Jesus' sake". On the other hand each has to take his place in lowliness. Then "let him that is taught in the word communicate to him that teaches in all good

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things" (Galatians 6:6); that is a word to be noted, too. We are to recognise that the servants are worthy of their hire. If they are serving us they should be communicated to in all good things.

A.R. Paul evidently had this in mind when he said that to remain would be for the sake of the saints. He was their servant, in that sense.

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JUDGMENT (9)

1 Corinthians 8:1 - 13; 1 Corinthians 10:14 - 33

J.T. As to the selection made of the scriptures to be read in this epistle it may be remarked that there are only two meetings left in this series. Some well-known portions are left out, but the subjects that have been passed by are too extended to meet the requirements of the meeting tonight. For instance, chapter 5 treats of the incestuous wickedness in Corinth, a well-known subject: therefore it was not thought wise to bring it up at this time. Then chapter 7, which is the subject of marriage, would be also very extended if we were to touch it at all. Chapter 8 is selected, linked on with chapter 10, because it deals with a subject with which we are not usually familiar. Chapter 8 is one of the passages in which allusion is made to a letter of inquiry which the brethren at Corinth had made to the apostle. This inquiry is regarding idols, but there are several such inquiries in the book and they are all interesting. Chapter 7 is of course one of them. But chapter 8 is a very important one because it treats of things sacrificed to idols, though the apostle immediately turns from the main thought to the question of knowledge. He says, "concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know (for we all have knowledge: knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. If anyone thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know it. But if any one love God, he is known of Him)". So that we have a touch there that ought to appeal to us as loving God; and God notices particularly those who love Him; He singles them out, we might say, as they come into view.

J.H.E. Is it not noticeable that this is a parenthesis, as if it were added to give further weight to what was on the apostle's mind?

J.T. Well, he clearly turned aside from the inquiry to bring in this matter. I suppose, as with many other

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cases in the two letters, there had been questions asked, and this is one of them. Clearly the apostle had in mind that in spite of the immediate question there must have been some tendency to be puffed up because of knowledge, which is often the case. Some men have learning and are men of parts and would be puffed up by what they know.

J.H.E. And in that case love would be left out, which is the most essential thing, is it not?

J.T. Because it builds up. Love edifies, it is constructive, whereas knowledge is apt to puff up. How often we put ourselves forward because we know a little Greek or the like, whereas it does not edify. But then in verse 4 he turns to the inquiry and says, "concerning then the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God save one. For if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, (as there are gods many, and lords many), yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". And so we come to this point that is always of importance, how to distinguish divine Persons; whether it be the Father, or the Son, or the Spirit; they are to be distinguished.

A.R. Would you say how they are to be distinguished? Is this title 'God' the full idea?

J.T. Yes, it is mentioned first, "if any one love God"; that is, 'God' as thus used would include the three Persons really when fully stated: "if any one love God, he is known of him". Then it says, "there is no other God save one"; and again, "yet to us there is one God", then specifying who He is; He is the Father. Then it is specified who the Lord is, as the mediatorial Person, so that clearly we have the Father and the Son specified here, but not the Spirit yet.

F.H.L. It is striking what you are emphasising

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about knowledge because in chapter 13, where love is paramount, knowledge is done away; in the love chapter knowledge is to be done away.

J.T. Showing how unimportant it is in itself.

R.W.S. "Yet to us", it says, "there is one God, the Father". Is there something distinctive in that as bearing on the assembly and the assembly's day?

J.T. I suppose so. In the second epistle, as we noted recently, it says, "I ... will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty"; that is to say, God there refers to names He had already taken with Abraham and others. Jehovah Almighty was one name He has taken. But now He is saying that, added to these -- though not in any way cancelling them -- is the name of 'Father'. It was added to those names. So that the names in the Old Testament are not abrogated, they remain in their force, conveying the idea of power and the like; but the name of 'Father' is a new name, the name of relationship, and that is characteristic of God's relation with us, with christians. He is our Father. Although in that particular passage in chapter 6 of the second epistle where it says, "ye shall be my sons and daughters", we have to distinguish because the full thought with us is not sons and daughters, but sons -- sons only, or children.

A.R. In Genesis 1 you have just 'Elohim', but in Genesis 2 you have added to Elohim, 'Jehovah'. Is that the same idea here?

J.T. It is. Elohim is the well-known name of the first chapter of Genesis, which would mean supremacy, but Jehovah is added to it, which means that He is entering into relationship. In the second chapter He takes that relation as Jehovah Elohim, that is to say, it is a question of the light of what He is to be to Israel; but He retains the name of supremacy also.

F.N.W. Is it in your mind that every feature in

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which God has come out towards men is to be gathered up in our souls?

J.T. That is right; every feature entering into the knowledge of God is to be gathered up in our souls, a good phrase -- gathering things up in our souls; not in our heads but in our souls, because it is a question of love. If we are dealing with God it is a question of love, "if any one love God, he is known of him". The person who loves Him is known of Him, therefore it is a question of love.

A.B.P. In the verse that you quote, "If any one love God, he is known of Him", I notice the unusual use of the capital in the pronoun 'Him'. Is that brought in as a title?

J.T. I think it must have been put in designedly so as to distinguish God Himself; to distinguish Him, that it is God that is in mind, that God knows the person that loves Him. I suppose the capital is introduced just to guard that.

A.B.P. I had not noticed it before, I must confess, and I wondered if there was anything in the original that justified the capital.

J.T. Well, I doubt it; I do not suppose it is in the Authorised Version. It must be to guard the pronoun 'Him', that it refers to God. That is to say, that the person who loves God is known of God; God knows him, so that if He were to meet him in a crowd, so to speak, He would take notice of him because He loves him.

G.H. Mary pondered those things in her heart. It is the idea of affection, love being attached to it.

A.N.W. You have the same peculiarity as to the capital letter in the end of Numbers 7; it says, "When Moses went into the tent of meeting to speak with Him"; it is a capital there, "then he heard the voice speaking to him from off the mercy-seat which was upon the ark of testimony, from between the two

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cherubim; and he spoke to Him", the capital again, signalising, as you say, a divine Person.

A.B.P. Would the matter of God distinguishing a man be worked out in God's relations with Abraham who had come out from idolatry? He says, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:19.

J.T. Yes; God says, I called him alone, showing that He distinguished him. "I called him when he was alone, and blessed him", Isaiah 51:2.

R.W.S. Is it not remarkable that this wonderful truth as to "God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him", should be placed in a section which deals with idols and a weak conscience and sinning against Christ and being a fall-trap to my brother? Is it not a very elevated thought in the presence of very base and low thoughts?

J.T. That word 'elevated' was the one that was in our minds, as you may remember, when we suggested this section, because the thought was to elevate the minds of the brethren in the epistle to the Corinthians. It is so much read and spoken of that it was thought we should get the most elevated thoughts in it at this particular time, and I think what you say is one of these thoughts; that is to say, the place that God has here, and that the person who loves Him is distinguished in His mind. Then it is emphasised that there is only one God, although 'God' is a plural thought, as Elohim in the first of Genesis; yet here it is a singular, it is brought down to the singular; that is, God discerned as such -- as the Father -- instead of being inclusive of the Son and the Spirit. The baptismal formula in Matthew 28 would distinguish the three Persons: "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

A.R. It says, "one God, the Father, of whom all things, ... and one Lord. Jesus Christ, by whom are

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all things". Is the idea that God stands by Himself, "of whom all things"?

J.T. So it is also in Hebrews 2"it became him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings", verse 10.

A.N.W. I was going to ask as to that passage: "for whom are all things and by whom are all things" Does not that refer to the Father? "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make perfect the leader of their salvation through sufferings".

J.T. Well, that just shows how divine Persons may be distinguished and may be named interchangeably. The Father may be in mind at one time and the Son at another time in saying the same things. In Hebrews 2 it refers to the Father, and that certain things became Him, the Father.

J.A.P. Referring to the Holy Spirit, in verse 40 of the previous chapter it says, "but I think that I also have God's Spirit". Is that one of the elevated thoughts? The apostle said he did not have the Lord's commandment about certain things, "but I think that I also have God's Spirit". Would that have equal authority?

J.T. That raises a very important question as to a particular character of thing in chapter 7 that you refer to, where the apostle distinguishes between his own personal knowledge by experience, and revelation and inspiration. Paul makes much of the difference between inspiration and personal knowledge from experience in chapter 7; you hardly get it anywhere else.

J.A.P. I was wondering if "God's Spirit" is an allusion to the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Surely; the apostle says, "I think that I also have God's Spirit"; that is to say, it is a question of supposition with him, which is remarkable; that he should at such a time come down to the thought of the

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difference between things that are inspired and the outcome of a brother's knowledge because of his experience. That is found only in that section, and it is wonderful that it is so, because there is so much inquiry as to marriage and the different features of it.

T.N.W. Is he suggesting that what he is saying does not grieve the Spirit?

J.T. He is suggesting, too, that he is an experienced man, that he has particular access to God and His things, and so he can say these things.

W.A.T. He does not say that he has the Spirit, but "I think ..."

J.T. Well, it is to bring out what he was, a spiritual man. Perhaps there was not a more spiritual man on earth than he.

A.M. Would it be right to say that there is a kind of knowledge that the apostle commends here? That is, the knowledge of divine Persons as they are to be known. It is not the kind of knowledge that puffs up, is it?

J.T. He is distinguishing the knowledge of divine Persons, the outcome of which is love.

A.B.P. When it speaks of "one God, the Father, of whom all things", does it refer to His counsels and purposes, God being the source of counsel and of its expression?

J.T. I would think so, as it stands here; but we have to bear in mind what we were saying as to Hebrews 2:10, that 'for' and 'by' there relate to the Father.

A.B.P. And in Romans 11:36 we have, "For of him and through him, and for him are all things". I wondered if the 'of' refers to the origin or source of all that is of God really?

J.T. When we consult the first chapter of John we have to see that the Son is God, and that all things were made by Him, and that without Him was not one thing

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made that was made. So it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", and then that all things were made by Him. The making of things is attributed to the Son there.

A.N.W. Your statement that the Persons are interchangeable must explain it, because chapter 1 of Hebrews distinctly attributes the creation of the worlds to the Son: "... by whom also he made the worlds".

J.T. The thing to be noted is that it is instrumentality there, that God made them through the Son. But in John 1 it is not so; "All things were made by him", is stated nakedly, as it were.

A.N.W. Is the 'by', in Hebrews 2:10, instrumentality or not? "By whom are all things".

J.T. That would not be instrumentality; if it is attributable to God it would not be that.

A.B.P. Would Mr. Darby be in the appreciation of what we have been considering in writing the hymn which reads, "All the Father's counsels claiming equal honours to the Son" (Hymn 14)? Is that not the atmosphere of this chapter?

J.T. Very good indeed; it is, as was suggested, the interchangeableness of the Persons-how they can be spoken of interchangeably. And that guards Deity. There is only one God really.

F.S.C. Is it the apostle's mind here to unify the minds of the brethren as to God over against idolatry? In Ephesians 4 it says, "using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace".

J.T. That is enjoined on us. "There is one body and one Spirit, as ye have been also called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all". That is a wonderful statement of the truth.

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A.M. Why is lordship stressed on this line of instrumentality, and not sonship as in Hebrews? It is lordship here, is it not?

J.T. It is to bring out the mediatorial position in authority, that is, the Lord, one Lord, which would agree with certain lines of thought in this epistle to bring out the authority of Christ as over against that of the Father.

A.M. And of course a great corrective principle as over against idolatry.

R.H.S. Would you say a word as to the difference between this thought, "one God, the Father", and what we get in Timothy, "For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus"? Does that involve the three Persons or has it in mind just the Father?

J.T. The mediator is the Son of course, that is, the man Christ Jesus; the mediatorial position is occupied by the Lord, by Christ. And God is one, of course, to bring out the truth of the unity of God.

W.A.T. You were speaking about John 1, "All things were made by him"; in Colossians it says that all things were created by Him, and then it gives the details, the things in the heavens, things on the earth, thrones and so forth. Is that the same thought.

J.T. Well, it is; it is to bring out the place of the Son which is characteristic of Colossians; much is made of the Son there as over against God. Sonship is a great thought in Colossians.

R.W.S. The instrumentality is perfect and complete in that sense because it is equal to the source. Would that not be so?

J.T. Just so, because it is a question of the Persons in the Godhead. The difference between the Persons can only be accounted for by the economy into which they have come, involving certain positional inferiority in the Spirit and the Son as compared with the Father.

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That is only to work out the truth of the economy that enters into the dispensation. Do you think that? We can only speak of inferiority in any sense in the divine Persons as we bring in the idea of the economy into which they have come.

C.A.M. That would mean the position they have taken?

J.T. Just so, they have taken it voluntarily, it was not imposed upon them.

T.N.W. Did I understand your thought in referring to Hebrews 2 that while it applies to God it could apply likewise to any One of the three Persons including the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Quite so. God is God; and if we speak to God as God then we must include in our minds, even if we do not speak it, both the Son and the Spirit, which is important, especially so just now as regards what is in the minds of the brethren as to speaking to the Spirit. Because if we speak to God in the full sense we include the Spirit. The Spirit must be included because God is in the Spirit, as it says in Ephesians 2, "a habitation of God in the Spirit".

A.T.D. Is it correct to say, "our God and our Father"?

J.T. Quite so: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies".

A.R. Do you think that is why Mr. Darby says he has no difficulty about calling the Spirit 'Lord'?

J.T. Well, quite so, "the Lord the Spirit"; in 2 Corinthians 3 we have that expression. The Spirit is called Lord there, we might say, in interchange; the title usually belongs to the Son. But there is an interchange there, the Spirit is called Lord.

R.W.S. And the Lord is called the Spirit.

Ques. The Lord's remark in John 4:24 to the woman is that "God is a spirit; and they who worship

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him must worship him in spirit and truth". Is it worked out there?

J.T. It is, only there it is the Father; if you worship the Father, it is the Father, that Person.

Rem. In the verse prior it says, "the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers".

J.T. There the Father is designated, that is very distinct there. When you get the Person designated then you are clear; when you get the Father designated it is the Father, not the Son nor the Spirit included.

A.R. When we speak to God as God, it must involve the Spirit?

J.T. Yes, as God it must involve the Spirit, the three Persons must be involved.

A.R. We do not really realise that we speak to the Spirit, do we?

J.T. Certainly we do, although many make a great difficulty about it; but then there it is. When we speak to God as such inclusive of the three Persons, we must speak to the Spirit.

D.P. Would the wonderful unity that exists between divine Persons cast contempt on the rival deities of the heathen?

J.T. Quite so, that is the very remarkable phraseology of Ephesians 2 that we are alluding to, that is to say, the unity in which we address the divine Persons.

W.A.T. Is the word 'one' stressed here, "one God" and "one Lord, Jesus Christ"?

J.T. "Yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ"; we must bring in the punctuation there -- one Lord, and that Lord is Jesus Christ.

W.A.T. And in 1 Corinthians 12 we get that "by one Spirit are we all baptised". There also it is just the one.

J.T. You are distinguishing the different Persons of

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the Deity and how they are spoken of and how each may be regarded as one.

R.T.M. Why is it that the Holy Spirit is not brought in here?

J.T. The fact the He is left out would not make any difference because the apostle is dealing with this matter of idolatry, and he is bringing in certain features to counter it, to contend against it. He is not leaving the Spirit out deliberately; He belongs to the Godhead in any case. The apostle is only speaking of the one God who is the Father, and the one Lord, Jesus Christ, without saying anything about the Spirit.

F.N.W. It seems that the preposition 'for', "we for him", is the same word as 'in' in John 1:18, "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". The 'for' and the 'in' are the same Greek word, 'eis'.

J.T. The noun would be the objective in that sense.

F.N.W. I really had in mind that that preposition involves motion; and would it therefore involve the place we acquire in the affections of the Father?

J.T. Quite so, we are 'for' Him, there is movement in that preposition, movement towards. It is a very precious thing that, if we are for the Father, or for the Son, the idea is that we move towards them, the idea is that we love them. And so it is that "if any one love God, the same is known of him". The movement is towards Him.

C.A.M. I would like to ask a question about the Spirit. In connection with the Lord here it says, "one Lord, Jesus Christ". There are those personal names attaching to the Lord. But inasmuch as the Holy Spirit has not a personal name, would that be because of the place He has taken at the present time, and if we are referring to the Spirit in address should we not refer to Him as Lord or as God?

J.T. In addressing Him we cannot say, 'Spirit' to Him, but we can say 'Lord' according to what we have

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said as to 2 Corinthians 3. Mr. Darby enlarges on that too. We can use the word 'Lord' as to Him.

J.H.E. According to verse 10, the one who has knowledge must always revert back to the fact of the weak one, "the brother for whose sake Christ died". Such a sacrifice! It should hold our hearts.

J.T. And we should remember, too, if we are apt to despise the brother and if we might say anything that would mislead him, that Christ died for him.

A.R. Would you say a word on John 4:24 where the Lord speaks to the woman about worshipping the Father in spirit and in truth, and says that "God is a Spirit; and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth".

J.T. That is remarkable, "God is a Spirit". I do not know that it is said anywhere else in just that way. What more have you to say about that?

A.R. One feels it is going beyond oneself to understand it. The Father is, as it were, a relative thought, but God is by Himself, in mystery, do you think.

J.T. He has to be worshipped. He is an Object to be worshipped, supremely so there: "The Father seeks such as his worshippers".

A.B.P. Is it significant in that passage that in relation to the Father. He is seeking worshippers; but when God is referred to as such there is a compulsion, there is a 'must' as to our approach, "they ... must worship him in spirit and truth". I wondered if there was a point to that?

J.T. Quite so, the imperative thought as to our relations with God.

E.A.L. You have recently drawn our attention to Genesis 24. It reads in verse 17, "And the servant ran to meet her, and said, Let me, I pray thee, sip a little water out of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink, my lord!" Is that significant in connection with what we have been saying?

J.T. That shows, if we allow typical language in

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the Old Testament to speak as if it were inspired, and it is inspired, that the word 'lord' there refers to the Spirit. The Spirit is alluded to, and He is addressed by Rebecca.

W.W.M. In regard to the service of God, in Ephesians 2 it says, "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". That brings in the Lord and the Spirit and reaches the Father.

J.T. The three divine Persons are there, and all with a view to approach to God. This enters, therefore, into the service of God on the first day of the week.

A.R. In the service of God it is a question of understanding that we are in a spiritual realm.

G.H. John 17:3 says: "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". Would you include the Spirit in that verse, in the only true God?

J.T. It is the Father in the opening of the chapter, the Lord is speaking to the Father there. However, "the only true God" would include the three Persons. If we confine our thoughts to the first address of the Lord it would be only one Person, it would be the Father. But then another thing comes in there, it is 'the' eternal life, the article is put before it, showing that the thought of eternal life is more, much more than the simple idea of eternal existence; the thought of eternal life is much more in its significance in the Scriptures than the thought of eternal existence.

C.A.M. You have that set over against idolatry, which we are occupied with here.

J.T. Just so, the only true God, that is the idea, it is over against idolatry. And the same term is applied to the Lord in the epistle of John, that "He is the true God and eternal life". The same expression is applied there to the Son as to the Father in John 17.

C.A.M. Do you not think that throws a great deal of light as being a sort of parallel with this chapter?

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J.T. Just so. And now we ought to turn to chapter 10 because it is so fully linked up with this chapter; that is to say, it is a question of the Lord's supper being introduced. It is only introduced in chapter 10 because something had to be said about the cup; the bread is not mentioned properly until the cup is mentioned. It brings in the Lord's supper, but brings in the thought of the cup, and that the cup is the cup of blessing. Then all that follows hinges on idolatry and the danger of the idea of the idolatry being found linked up with the Lord's supper in the cup.

C.A.M. Would it be right in that way to say that it is looking at the Supper in connection with the general status around?

J.T. That is right; it is not a question of the whole subject of the Lord's supper being brought in at all here, it is in chapter 11 that that is brought in. In chapter 10 it is just to bring in the thought of idolatry, and how it may creep into the subject of the cup. "The cup of the Lord" it is called here.

C.A.M. So in that way it would apply to every day of the week.

J.T. Just so, it is an everyday matter.

A.A.T. On Lord's day morning in giving thanks for the cup the expression is often used, 'the cup of blessing'.

J.T. That expression is quite right, but it is out of its place at the Supper because chapter 11 is properly the chapter for the Lord's supper, and the bread comes before the cup in that chapter. Fellowship is the point in this chapter, but it is not that in the 11th. It is a question there of the Lord saying, 'This do for a calling of Me to mind'.

W.A.T. There seem to be just these two things: "the cup of the Lord", and "the cup of demons". Would that mean that if one does not partake of the cup of the Lord it is a very serious matter? What are you partaking of?

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J.T. Quite so; and how easily we may link what we are going on with in that sense with idolatry. We do not wish to speak of any system in which idolatry may be found, it is not wise; but it is to be found in a certain system in the service of God, without saying anything more. Idolatry is there.

A.M. So the truth as to the cup is darkened in that very regard in connection with one of those systems, is it not?

J.T. They do not give the Supper in both kinds, as it is called; they give only the bread, they do not give the cup.

J.H.E. Do you think that Joseph hid the cup in Benjamin's sack to bring out this thought and to adjust his brethren?

J.T. It is very remarkable how that is brought in, in connection with Joseph; significantly in connection with Joseph in view of his making himself known to his brethren.

J.A.P. You stressed in Los Angeles that the teaching of the Lord's supper comes in chapter 11 and not in chapter 10. Chapter 10, you stressed, is the moral side.

J.T. The teaching properly is in chapter 11, the teaching as such, and therefore the first element is the bread. The cup is the second element.

F.H.L. In so far as the Supper has a public side then, we should be completely clear in the line of chapter 10 as to all relationships and that side of things?

J.T. All our public relationships should be governed by what is there, and we get remarkable things there from verse 23 down: "All things are lawful, but all are not profitable; all things are lawful, but all do not edify. Let no one seek his own advantage, but that of the other. Everything sold in the shambles eat, making no inquiry for conscience sake". Note that, everything sold in the shambles, common property,

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things that can be bought for everyday use. "For the earth is the Lord's and its fulness. But if any one of the unbelievers invite you, and ye are minded to go, all that is set before you eat, making no inquiry for conscience sake". Notice how God comes down to this matter of an unbeliever inviting a christian, and a christian accepting it. That is a very remarkable thing; it shows how gracious God is with us; and yet we have to be careful not to make too much use of it. God would watch over us so that we should not. "But if any one say to you, This is offered to holy purposes, do not eat, for his sake that pointed it out, and conscience sake; but conscience, I mean, not thine own, but that of the other: for why is my liberty judged by another conscience?" The word 'conscience' is a thing to be noted too; a good conscience does not set anything right, we may do wrong things with a good conscience.

A.M. Have you anything to say about the weak conscience of chapter 8? It is a term that has had to be used.

J.T. It shows that God is considerate of a weak brother. What do you say about that?

A.M. I was only wondering if it relates to this question of knowledge, as to whether we are responsible to apply knowledge, and not to have a weak conscience.

J.T. Paul certainly afforded all the knowledge that could be wished for or desired or needed. He reserved certain things because of their low state; they were in a fleshly condition, therefore he decided to know nothing among them save Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The apostle had to limit himself in that way; they might be weak, you know, they might not be instructed.

A.I. In verse 14 of chapter 10 the apostle says, "Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say". Would you say the apostle is accrediting the Corinthians with power to flee from idolatry?

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J.T. Really he is; we have often alluded to that passage as to intelligent persons, that in approaching the Lord's supper the word 'intelligent' is used. That is a matter that should be before us in approaching the Lord's supper, that we know what we are doing and can give an account of what we are doing.

S.W. Would you say a word as to giving an occasion of stumbling? In chapter 7 it is being a 'fall-trap'; in this chapter it is an 'occasion to stumbling'.

J.T. Well, just as indicated here there is something that may be eaten from an idol house. The apostle says that you might have a good conscience in eating a particular food that might have come from an idol house, but if you ate it before a brother who knew what an idol house means or implies, he might be stumbled that you should do such a thing as to eat food of that kind; whereas the food of itself is just food.

A.R. Is that why Paul speaks about his liberty?

J.T. Just so; why should his conscience be judged by another? If the food is sold in the shambles and if you buy it and pay for it, why should you not eat it and give thanks for it although it might be linked up in some way with idolatry?

W.A.T. Was it not his guiding principle to consider for the profit of the many, that they might be saved?

J.T. He was an evangelist, a man that gets people saved.

A.I. Is there such a thing as one having faith in himself in God?

J.T. Yes, having faith between yourself and God.

F.N.W. Do these two sections we have read bring out that, while Paul is concerned to love God, he has made up his mind to be governed by love in relation to others too?

J.T. That is just what he was, considering for all of them, and if he did not consider for the Corinthians you would just wonder what would become of them.

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But he was specially considerate of them; "all things", he says, "for your sakes".

R.W.S. It would appear that he is not only concerned that no occasion of stumbling be given to the Jews or the Greeks or the assembly of God, but in verse 29 he seems concerned about the conscience of that 'other' person, "not thine own, but that of the other". Is that the idea of the unbeliever, the person you are eating with?

J.T. Well, just so, you are thinking of the other person instead of yourself. Is not that a right thought? It governed Paul, as we have already remarked; he was thinking of others. All things are for your sakes, he says, "all are yours; and ye are Christ's and Christ is God's". So wonderfully were they in the apostle's mind! It is a right principle for every one of us who seeks to serve the Lord, that we think of the saints.

A.R. Is that why he says in the first verse of chapter 11, "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ"? Should that be linked on with chapter 10, do you think?

F.H.L. He maintains this high level throughout the whole epistle despite all the failure and these three great problems that came in to be met. In the opening of the epistle he is holding the Corinthians and clothing them in great thoughts, is he not? And he maintains that platform, as if he would try to attract them back on to it.

J.T. That is what we thought when it came into our minds to read a few passages from this epistle, that we might get some elevated thoughts that would help the brethren at this particular time.

D.P. Would the believer in Corinth come under public notice in what he was doing, whether it be eating or otherwise?

J.T. He might, and if he was invited by a man of the world he might expose himself. We ought to be particular as to the persons from whom we accept

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invitations in that sense. "If any one of the unbelievers invite you, and ye are minded to go" -- well, I would be afraid to be 'minded'. But the apostle is graciously liberal in that sense.

S.W. Having the glory of God in mind.

J.T. Just so.

A.M. I was thinking that it is possible the truth might be evil spoken of in that very connection, instead of God being glorified. Have we not to be watchful?

J.T. I was thinking of public eating, how important it is in public restaurants to bow our heads and give thanks. Sometimes it helps; people notice it.

R.W.S. That is one way, I suppose, of extending the thought of God's glory, to bring to light believers.

A.N.W. The apostle speaks of "Jews, or Greeks, or the assembly of God". Does that cover everything we are in relation with in that regard? Is it intended to cover everything?

J.T. And to give no offence to any; I would think so.

A.N.W. "Do all things to God's glory. Give no occasion to stumbling, whether to Jews, or Greeks, or the assembly of God". I wondered if that would refer to the religious world, and the heathen world, and the assembly of God itself.

J.T. One has often thought of these three places, they might be on the same street, the Jewish synagogue, the idol's temple, and the assembly. The assembly is what God has His eye upon as His witness and testimony, where things are done according to Him.

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JUDGMENT (10)

1 Corinthians 11:17 - 34

J.T. The suggestion is to briefly refer to headship in the first part of the chapter so as to link it on with our present thought of the Lord's supper. The subject begins in verse 2, "Now I praise you, that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions. But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God". It is thought that the subject of headship fits in peculiarly as introductory to the Lord's supper in the service of God. The tendency with us is to have our own thoughts about things, and hence the subject of headship would tend to regulate us and keep us subject.

J.T.Jr. Does headship according to the Corinthian epistles allude to the public side of the truth?

J.T. I would think so, especially because of the reference to the hair, and that it is given to the woman for a covering. Many take that to mean that it settles the whole matter, that the hair as a covering is enough, but it is not so; because the apostle says if a woman have not long hair she should be shaved, which is very drastic, and it shows how much the matter is in the mind of the Spirit of God, as to the public appearance and order of the assembly.

A.B.P. Is subjection a feminine thought?

J.T. Of course it is general, but it runs through scripture as characteristically feminine.

L.E.S. Would all this be in mind in Ephesians 5 where it says, "... even as the assembly is subjected to the Christ"? Does what you are saying lie at the base of our understanding of what the assembly is and its functioning?

J.T. Not simply that she is subject as a matter of fact, but that she is subjected.

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A.M. The public side is especially in mind, because there is a distinction between men and women, brothers and sisters. It is in that connection we come together for the Supper. So that what is not seemly on that level has to be met first.

J.T. Yes, and therefore, as has often been remarked, we do not exactly come to meet the Lord, initially; we come to meet the brethren. And that raises the question as to what marks us as brothers and sisters together.

A.R. It is not only that people may be looking at us but angels also. It is said that there is seen in the assembly the all-various wisdom of God. Do you think the wisdom of God is seen in our sisters having a covering on, indicating subjection?

J.T. It would seem that angelic distinction is involved in the fact that angels are spoken of so much as having to say to the assembly.

V.C.L. In the private side the hair is not overlooked, typically, by the Lord in the Song of Solomon. It comes in prominently in chapter 4: 1, "Thy hair is as a flock of goats, on the slopes of mount Gilead". That would show the height this truth would reach.

A.R. More than long hair is spoken of in this chapter. There is also the matter of a covering, that is 'authority' on the head of woman, verse 10.

J.T. That is a verse not much understood; it reads, "Therefore ought the woman to have authority on her head, on account of the angels". Authority there means that there is a sign or a symbol of authority on her head.

L.E.S. Would it not furnish a bulwark, if understood, as over against the incoming of the floods of evil?

J.T. I think it does, and it is a question of how much sisters take it on, because there is a great deal of discussion on this point; and when the subject is ended, it is said, "But if any one think to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God",

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showing that the apostle was refusing the idea of contention on this point.

D.McD. Would you say something in regard to long hair? There are sisters amongst us who have their hair cut.

J.T. Well, this subject affects every brother and sister, every sister particularly.

F.N.W. Is that one way in which priestly sensibilities would show themselves in the sisterhood?

J.T. Yes, 'priestly sensibilities' is a good expression because it is so allied with the service of God, and that is the point we are aiming at just now, the service of God, and what is becoming in it.

A.M. So that the public position is only introductory; it is only a means to an end, is it not? The end in view is the spiritual side of things, and the sisters are included, all are on the same level in that regard.

J.T. Gradually we come into the service of God, we come into sonship, sisters and brothers alike. The service of God is progressive, from glory to glory, and the idea of glory is attached to the woman's hair.

A.R. Do you think that Mary came into the idea of brethren when she got the message from the Lord in John 20? He said to her, "go to my brethren and say to them ...". She carried that message to them.

J.T. Doubtless she would have in her mind all that was proper to a sister.

A.R. I was thinking of what was said. She must have understood the idea of brethren before she could understand the idea of sonship; we must work it out that way in the service of God, coming to the idea of brethren first, before we can work out the truth of sonship.

J.T. I would say, rather, that the relationship as brothers and sisters comes first; brethren is a more advanced thought, really, and particularly if we have

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in mind what the Lord said, in John 20, "My brethren". But what we alluded to at the beginning is that we come together as brothers and sisters. We meet as saints; that is the idea, and we go on from glory to glory.

W.A.T. Those in John 20 have to learn headship, for the napkin which had been on the Lord's head was lying in a separate place; this was before Mary got the message we referred to.

J.T. That is very suggestive. The napkin was laid in a place by itself. Surely that would call attention to headship.

C.A.M. The matter of headship will continue eternally, I take it. The setting here in regard to the man and woman is a provisional idea, would you say?

J.T. Yes, because we are still in the public position; the order in which we are under the government of God now, as we are sitting here in this hall.

C.A.M. I thought that was why you distinguished between brothers and sisters, and brethren, and sons, which latter would be an eternal thought.

J.T.Jr. The first reference in the book to a brother is in chapter 1 -- "Sosthenes the brother", as if that feature was in Paul's mind in the public setting; and then in chapter 9 he speaks of a sister: "have we not a right to take round a sister as wife", verse 5. These two thoughts were evidently in the apostle's mind in connection with the government of God.

J.T. Just so, although they come short of the full thought. What has been said is right -- it is the provisional thought, because it will not continue eternally. What will continue is sonship, and from the feminine side what will continue is the assembly.

A.McD. Is that why we get in chapter 1 of the Acts, not only brothers mentioned, but also "several women".

J.T. Yes, and among them the Lord's mother. She must always be in mind when the question of women

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comes up because she is singled out in the history of humanity, you might say. There is none to be compared with her in that sense. And so the Lord places her in the hands of John, putting her in the charge of John as it were, and He says to John, "Behold thy mother". John is regarded as her son; the Lord distinguishes him in that way. She is to regard John as her son. So he took her to his own home; there is remarkable distinction in that sense, in Mary.

A.B.P. In Isaiah 7 it is "the virgin". The article is emphatic. Is that an honour that is paid to Mary in the prophetic word?

J.T. Quite so; much is made of it in some authorities.

S.W. Would you go as far as some do that Mary was immaculate?

J.T. Oh no, you could not say that; that is not true. The Lord Himself, in John 2, says, "What have I to do with thee, woman?" We have to bear that in mind. She is a creature, and had really to be saved.

A.M. Is it important that the teaching here goes back to Genesis 1 and 2, especially chapter 2, before sin came in? I was thinking of man being God's image and glory; the woman, man's glory; man is not of woman, but woman of man. That refers to the period before sin came in. So that it is a very fundamental matter in the mind of God.

J.T. And then how the woman comes in in the history of humanity; how she comes in maternally; the place she has maternally. We are all aware of that; we should be aware of it. We are born of woman, every one of us. God recognises that, and certain suffering connected with it, but then at the same time there is a certain distinction and honour connected with it. The Lord Jesus Himself is referred to as her Seed. Hence the great distinction attached to her.

A.B.P. Is the use of the covering and of the token referred to in our chapter a means by which a sister can

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show she has a right judgment of what took place at the beginning of man's history and overcome in relation to the deception of Eve?

J.T. Yes, but her beginning was before that. It is a remarkable thing that Adam was not conscious while she was being formed or built; the word 'built' is used as to her. It is not used as to man; it is used as to the woman. God built a woman, so that she has a greater distinction in that sense. And so Adam said, "This time it is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man".

C.A.M. The maternal idea does not come in until God makes the pronouncement that it was not good that man should be alone.

A.A.T. Our chapter speaks of a woman praying or prophesying. We know that in the assembly the woman is silent. When does she pray?

J.T. She prays with the brethren; when they pray, she prays. The brother that prays is not the only one that is praying, the brother that prays is just a leader in the prayer. We would be very sorry to see a sister come in without her hat on, in the assembly.

A.R. Would you say that the maternal side is seen when Adam calls Eve the mother of all living?

J.T. Exactly.

J.H.E. Does the woman really shine in Luke 7? The man, the Pharisee, was amiss there with his questioning, but the woman was subject; she washed the Lord's feet with her tears and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

J.T. That was a glorious service. Others have done it too, Mary of Bethany for instance.

L.E.S. Would this thought be extended in 1 Timothy 2 in regard of the women who profess godliness? The apostle refers to their hair and to their deportment.

J.T. Quite so, you can see there the place she has

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in the service, and how much intelligence the woman is supposed to have. So ultimately sisters, as Lydia and Phoebe, are regarded as servants as well as brothers. That is the way we are to classify ourselves as in the service of God. Spiritually sisters are brethren of Christ and sons of God. What is said in 1 Corinthians as to women being silent refers to what is public.

R.W.S. It would be difficult to have the service of God without the sisters.

J.T. It would not be just right without the sisters, not that it could not be, but the assembly implies brothers and sisters.

J.A.P. Hannah calls Eli her lord, she says, "my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit ... Take not thy handmaid for a daughter of Belial". Is not the subject way she speaks to Eli, although spiritually superior, very lovely?

J.T. Yes; all that Hannah did was perfectly comely. She comes in among the worshippers. She comes in with them, just as Mary, the mother of our Lord, does.

A.B.P. Is there a spiritual meaning to the end of verse 12? Has it a bearing upon the Supper? "For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman, but all things of God". I have in mind especially the words, "so also is the man by the woman", wondering if that has a spiritual application to the saints as together on Lord's day morning and the way in which their feelings enter into the calling of the Lord to mind. They bring in the Man, so to speak.

J.T. "For as the woman is of the man", would work out in an individual and provisional matter in everyday life.

A.B.P. Yes, I can see that that is the basic setting of the verse, but I wondered if this principle, in a spiritual way, could be applied to the subjective feelings which move the saints as together for a calling of the Lord to mind.

J.T. You mean that body feelings enter it? As to

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the individual side, I think we might inquire whether Mary and Joseph would not set out the thought; Joseph was by the woman there. In Luke you see how beautifully they are brought in together. Mary kept all the things in her mind, pondering them in her heart. If we were to inquire into Matthew we would see more the idea of the man, because he acts so righteously and beautifully as a man there. The thought of the assembly coming into the matter would be covered in chapter 10: 15 -- "intelligent persons".

J.T.Jr. What you bring up about Matthew and Luke seems to open up a different view of this verse from that we might have had. I have never considered it that way, and it is very enlightening that Matthew is the man. The woman is there, but the man in prominence. In Luke the stress is on the woman, but the man is there, too.

J.T. And he is a righteous man, he is viewed as righteous. Joseph is more distinguished in Matthew than even Mary, stress being placed on his righteousness. It is a question of the assembly gospel and righteousness comes into the history of Joseph there more than in Luke.

C.A.M. The stressing of the woman in Luke seems to help. Even the genealogy there is thought to be Mary's, is it not?

J.T. I think so. In Luke Joseph is said to be "of Eli", whereas in Matthew "Jacob begat Joseph". The genealogy has Joseph more in mind than Mary in Matthew.

R.W.S. So he is a righteous man; it is not a righteous brother or a righteous husband, but a righteous man.

J.T. That is the point, that he is distinguished as a righteous man.

A.R. Does that bear upon assembly administration?

J.T. Yes. It brings out the importance of the man for administrative purposes.

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A.N.W. Why does the apostle open the paragraph in our chapter with a word of praise, hopefully praising them, in contradistinction to the verse you now refer to where he emphatically says, I do not praise. Was he hopeful as to headship, do you think, but alarmed as to behaviour at the Supper? He says in verse 2, "Now I praise you, that in all things ye are mindful of me; and that as I have directed you, ye keep the directions. But I wish you to know", etc.

J.T. The 'but', verse 17, comes in, and it is very important that it is there, because the apostle is going to say something negative. But he is going to stress the positive, too. In the first chapter of the epistle the question of division amongst them is mentioned and in verse 17 of this chapter we have also division referred to, only the assembly is brought into it immediately, which I think we ought to notice. The assembly is brought into it immediately here, whereas in chapter 1 it is not brought in and yet the same things are said. You just wonder why that should be.

R.H.S. When we come together for the Lord's supper, is the headship of Christ to be before us mainly to regulate us, or is there opportunity to give expression to it in our thanksgiving?

J.T. Well, I think there is opportunity to give expression to it. I believe we are impressed as we proceed in the service of God that the brothers are the ones that are speaking, whereas in time, while the brothers always speak in assembly, yet there is this thought of the assembly, and instead of the idea of division being stressed, as in chapter 1, we have the assembly stressed.

J.T.Jr. Meaning that the assembly was there in spite of what might be called division?

J.T. Well, exactly; the apostle, in this chapter, is now coming to the real thought that is in his mind, and that is the service of God. He has in mind the

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actual service of God on the first day of the week.

J.T.Jr. So when we sit down in our localities, there might be difficulties but the positive thought is there in the assembly which should lead out of every difficulty.

J.T. That is right, and it does, too. We already alluded to the prescription that the apostle mentions in verse 17, but he says immediately, "I do not praise". He says that immediately. And then he says, "ye come together, not for the better, but for the worse. For first, when ye come together in assembly ..." Now he is not saying, Ye are not the assembly, but he does say that the assembly is there and they are regarded as in it. Some may wonder why I am pressing all this, but it is very important to see that the assembly is immediately brought in, and that it is not abrogated or neglected or set aside by the condition that existed; it is still regarded as there, although the Corinthians are not acting properly in it.

A.R. So that when we commence our meetings, we commence with the idea of a moral whole, the word involves a moral whole, so that it eclipses the idea of divisions.

J.T. That is good, you refer to Exodus 12 for the ideal of a moral whole; it does not necessarily mean every one in the gathering but there is a moral completeness attached to it. The footnote in the New Translation to Exodus 12:3 reads, "'Assembly' is the congregation looked at as a moral whole, a corporate person before God". That is something for every one of us to take note of so that we will see what attaches to us as we come together in assembly.

R.W.S. Was there reluctance on Paul's part to believe all that he heard? In chapter 1 he says that it has been shewn to him concerning them, but here he says, "I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it".

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J.T. He evidently got facts himself, he is not relying entirely on Chloe's information.

R.W.S. Why does he partly give credit? He does not say that he wholly believes it.

J.T. He says, "I hear there exist divisions among you, and I partly give credit to it. For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you". The word 'must' there has moral bearing.

C.A.M. Would it be right to distinguish between the expression "in assembly", verse 18, and the expression in Acts 1:4, "being assembled with them"?

J.T. 'In assembly' may be compared with a legislative chamber, like the House of Commons in England, or Congress in this country; that is, there is a time when they are regarded as in session, when they are in function. The passages you mention -- Acts 1:4 and 1 Corinthians 11:18 -- illustrate this.

W.A.T. When are the approved made manifest?

J.T. Well, they are there and discerned; it is a question of what is to be seen morally when the saints come together, there are those that are approved, and there are those that are not approved. The Lord helps us to discern them.

W.A.T. Do we see that in Judas?

J.T. Well, he was there; in fact, on the night in which Jesus "was delivered up". Judas was there, a most solemn thing. It shows what can happen, and yet we have the status of the assembly.

A.B.P. Does this passage mean that the approved come to light during the issue? The issue makes the approved manifest because they are feeling things with God. There were sects, but during the period of this divided condition, there were those who felt things with God and maintained the oneness in their exercises.

J.T. Just so, and therefore we come to the most

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solemn phase of the chapter in verse 26; we must keep before us that what is contemplated is the assembly in function notwithstanding the difficulties that came up; notwithstanding the actual state of things in Corinth.

A.B.P. Well, was it not the existence of the approved that gave the apostle courage to say that they had assembly status?

J.T. There must have been some that were right, for he says "that the approved may become manifest among you". Therefore we cannot cover ourselves in these cases, because the assembly has that in it that exposes. That which exposes is light and this is seen in the approved.

A.T.D. So that what we have here is consistent with what it says in the first chapter, in the beginning, referring to the assembly at Corinth.

J.T. Well quite so; there is much said there what we may call objective, that it is not exactly a state at the time; the apostle liberally gives credit for it.

A.N.W. Would you say the apostle regards them as together in one place in connection with the Supper itself? Verse 20 says, "When ye come therefore into one place".

J.T. They are contemplated, of course, in one place or they would not be in assembly.

A.N.W. In John 20 it says, "... where the disciples were".

J.T. The word together is not there, it is where the disciples were.

R.W.S. And despite the fact that, as Paul said, their being together was "not to eat the Lord's supper", they are still regarded as in assembly. Is that right?

J.T. Only the negative thought there is that their conduct was wrong as shown in verses 21 and 27 to 32.

D.P. Has the truth to be maintained at its proper level, whatever our state may be?

J.T. Yes, but we must remember there were some

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that were right, some that were commendable were there, as we have said. The assembly status is maintained in that sense, in that some were manifestly approved.

J.T.Jr. But there were also those that were despising the assembly, evidently, for verse 22 says, "do ye despise the assembly of God ...".

J.T. Yes, but there were some who were approved, otherwise there would be no assembly at all. We can thank God for that. And so the thought is carried right through to the second epistle: "having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6. He was looking for that. But there were some all the time who were manifested as approved.

F.N.W. Do you think the Lord had this kind of thing in mind in John 3, "For every one that does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light that his works may not be shewn as they are; but he that practises the truth comes to the light, that his works may be manifested that they have been wrought in God", verse 20.

J.T. There were some there who were just in that case; some were not approved, and others were. Assembly status was there nevertheless, and that is a most important matter to have before us.

R.H.S. What is meant by assembly status?

J.T. Well, the apostle speaks of the approved, and they were made manifest. They were there and were manifest. They gave the assembly its status, because these, I believe, were the greater number.

R.H.S. Would it require two or three or just one?

J.T. The context would indicate there was a goodly number, as I said. The many in the second epistle, chapter 2: 6, would clearly show this.

A.R. So he goes on to say, "let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup".

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J.T. So, in verse 34: "If any one be hungry, let him eat at home, that ye may not come together for judgment". So the apostle is correcting the whole matter in this chapter; and very likely it was corrected.

J.T.Jr. And so the first day of the week, as it comes round, should have this effect of correcting things. If the Supper is taken, it should arouse within us what is in keeping with the assembly and we should seek to come into line with it.

J.T. You can see what a wonderful thing the assembly is here on earth, how God can use it for correction.

A.R. So that there is to be self-examination going on all the time.

J.T. We are challenged all the time as we come together in assembly.

J.A.P. Would you say a word as to our outward conduct at the Lord's supper? There is the singing and the part we take; does all that enter into a right testimony?

J.T. The apostle says, that it is not a food question at all in the sense of getting sustenance for the body. He says, "If any one be hungry, let him eat at home, that ye may not come together for judgment". Thus we may see how easily we may involve ourselves in judgment by certain conduct in the assembly.

D.P. When public disorder exists in a locality, does it not require skilled leadership to bring about adjustment?

J.T. The leaders, to help in that sense, must be of the approved, they would show what is right in the presence of the others. And so the matter would be corrected; so he says, for instance, "For as often as ye shall eat this bread, and drink the cup, ye announce the death of the Lord, until he come. So that whosoever shall eat the bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty in respect of the body and of

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the blood of the Lord". Notice that it is not the blood of Christ here, it is the blood of the Lord. And then, "But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup. For the eater and drinker eats and drinks judgment to himself, not distinguishing the body. On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep". How solemn this is! "a good many", he says. We were remarking as to numbers; here the apostle specifies a good many as having fallen asleep. And then, "But if we judged ourselves, so were we not judged". That is the point that is stressed now, self-judgment in the assembly. It is not simply what we are doing every day of the week, but in the assembly when we come together. Misconduct in the assembly is a most serious thing. Should persons come in and misconduct themselves in the assembly, when the saints are together, it is the most serious thing in the sight of heaven.

J.H.E. The assembly is no place for license, you are under the authority of the Lord.

J.T. Quite so; it is thus a question of the blood of the Lord, you will notice.

A.B.P. Moses was told to take off the shoes from off his feet, for the place whereon he stood was holy. I wondered if you do not have a similar situation here, that the fire is in the bush, in principle; many are weak and sickly, and many are fallen asleep. Would that not be the Lord maintaining His presence amongst them, but not in any sense compromising His holiness?

J.T. Quite so; and how very solemn it is that "a good many are fallen asleep"! You just wonder that a thing like that happens in a gathering.

L.E.S. Are we sometimes confronted with the damaging influences of our younger people belittling the dignity of the assembly?

J.T. Hence the importance of their keeping with the elder brethren so that they will not misconduct

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themselves. The Lord would help us by the example of others how to behave.

A.R. What do you say about "when ye come together to eat, wait for one another", verse 33?

J.T. I think it refers to the order of the assembly involving mutual consideration; "wait for one another". You might say, Why were you not there in time? Of the Lord it was said that, when the hour was come, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him. He would not have to wait for the others. But some might come in late, so it looks as if the apostle is making much of the assembly, and that we should be in the attitude of waiting on one another before we actually begin. But then that would also be qualified by what it says of the Lord, as I noted. "When the hour was come, he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him", Luke 22:14. It shows that He was not late; He was there when the hour came.

A.R. So it refers back to verse 18: "when ye come together in assembly".

R.W.S. Was there a meal connected with the Supper in the early church?

J.T. I should not think so; this instruction precludes it. He says, "If any one be hungry, let him eat at home", verse 34.

J.T.Jr. That would cover other things, too; if you need to sleep, sleep at home.

J.T. Quite so. Sleeping in the assembly is most distressing. The last verse of the chapter says, "But the other things, whenever I come, I will set in order", showing how much the apostle stressed the importance of order in the assembly.

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GOD'S DELIGHT IN HIS PEOPLE

Matthew 17:1 - 5; Isaiah 62:1 - 5; 2 Samuel 11:27; 2 Samuel 12:24, 25

It is in mind to speak of the delight that God has in His people. Surely it is the desire of each one to give God pleasure, and there is a measure of delight that God has in us commensurate, I would say, with the desire we have in our hearts for Him. I am assuming that there has been a beginning with each of us; a beginning in faith, which has brought about a change with us, so that we are no longer reckoned as in our sins, as David could say, "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered!" Psalm 32:1. My point is that God's delight in us has begun, but it should increase according to the measure that we are moving in our souls in response to the light that has come to us. As the Lord places us each in our localities it is with a view that we might grow even as the trees of the Lord -- as terebinths of righteousness. Trees are suggestive of strength, endurance, longevity and continuity. And this matter of giving God pleasure should increase. As we get older there should be increase with us. Our knowledge of God should increase, and commensurate with that God's delight in us should be extending so that we are more and more pleasing to Him.

The passages read have God's delight in view. We read of Christ in this way, but there can be no thought of measure in Him. He trusted in God from the outset; God ever had delight in Him. The word in Matthew is about Him. The word is to us. That is, God is calling the attention of others to Christ. No doubt that continues, for God would call attention to certain ones who follow in the service of Christ and what they exhibit. But here we read, "And after six days Jesus takes with him Peter, and James, and John

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his brother, and brings them up into a high mountain apart". These were distinguished men, each one of them. The Lord had chosen Peter and had distinguished him -- he had the first place among the apostles. And think of what shone in Peter, in his ministry, and how God could, and did, delight in it! At the same time Peter linked up with the eleven, showing how the early servants were identified with the brethren in their service. And so there should be no tendency with us to maintain individual characteristics, though each has his own distinction. Yet there should be intimate relationships between those who are prominent in the service. We see more and more the need of the labourers being together in their outlook and service in order that unity may be expressed in them.

So that we have the twelve, but Peter is speaking, and in it there is distinction. Then later, you will remember, in Acts 15, Peter speaks again, and Paul and Barnabas and James. They are distinguished as they speak, bringing out the truth. And so in these meetings the truth is brought out in order that the saints may be formed in it. We love the brethren because they are in the truth, and for the truth's sake. It is John's way of supporting the whole position. He is a family man who would stimulate affections amongst us -- love for one another -- and would value the different abilities that are to be seen, making way for them, and especially making way for the development of the younger men, for God delights in them. They are strong -- they are to come forward in the service ready to do the work, as the word to Timothy was, "do the work of an evangelist", 2 Timothy 4:5. He was not to be negligent of the gift that was in him which had been received through the imposition of the hands of the presbytery, but which had to be rekindled. Our young men need to be stirred up to what God has given them, and to dignify the service so that God's delight may come out

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in regard to them. The glory is to shine in them, for there is the shining of the glory in the servants. Moses' face shone when he came down from the mountain. And so God distinguished Timothy. God delights to take up such and see that the work is carried on through them. The Lord has need of such at this time.

I mention all this in relation to the first scripture read because the Lord Jesus shines before us in it, transfigured before the disciples on the mount. Peter was affected by it and he speaks later about it, saying, "For we have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty", 2 Peter 1:16. Think of what their eyes had seen! We need to see things, too. We need to get into the position where we can see things. It may be in the presence of other distinguished disciples, it may be in meetings such as these. We want to have our eyes open to see what is taking place as we are together. The Lord took these three disciples up in the mountain apart, and He was transfigured before them. And so the Lord takes us on that He might show us things; that we might see things and be developed in order that we might hear the wonderful acclamation from heaven about Christ, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight".

The inward side of the truth is so necessary at the present time, it is that God finds delight in us -- in persons. In our scripture it is not exactly what Christ has been doing that is referred to, but the Person in whom God has found His delight. What there was in Him! And so, in regard to the offerings in Leviticus, we are told that they were divided and the inwards were washed with water, meaning that they were made types of Christ by the washing of the water. He needed no washing, as we well know! The more we think of that the more we grow in our souls. "Him who knew

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not sin he has made sin for us", 2 Corinthians 5:21. He was the One who knew not sin. It is an inward matter. It is not the statement that He did not sin, but that He knew not sin. It is such a One in whom God found His delight.

So in a corresponding way God is now looking to find His delight in men; first of all in His servants and then in all those who are of the assembly, we may say. He looked for delight in Peter, and in James and John, and He found it, too. He found it in the twelve when they stood up at Pentecost. There were twelve, and what a delight for heaven! Think of what was resident in those men as they stood together -- what an accumulation of experience was there! Therefore, as those who would be in the service, we need to be kept, and especially the younger brethren. When we get older, perhaps we have more control and a greater knowledge of the enemy's devices. We may be more able to meet the enemy as we get older, but when we are younger the enemy is apt to discover where we are weak and render us unserviceable. But John says that the young men are strong and that they have overcome the world and the wicked one. Therefore we can see the need of our younger men laying themselves out to protect themselves against what the enemy would bring in.

I refer to David briefly because I do not want to occupy you unduly with the negative side, but in this scripture there is the side of things that displeases the Lord. David is brought forward in the New Testament with no charge like this against him. How the truth shone in him! A man after God's own heart! Jehovah told Samuel not to look on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. He was looking on David's heart, but what had come about in David's heart at this point? He had done something to displease the Lord. I bring it up tonight that we may examine ourselves to see if anything is being allowed to displease the Lord,

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whatever it may be. You may have confidence that what you are doing is right, perfectly assured that the way you are going is right. Job was such a man. He clave to his own righteousness. How often does that character of things exist and God is displeased with it? I know it was a very serious thing that David had done, but I merely refer to it to point out that David had done something to displease the Lord. What is it that any of us have done to displease Him?

I believe that there is a need of going over matters -- getting into the presence of God and spreading out our motives there -- things that no one knows but ourselves. Can we bring our motives into the presence of God and lay them out before Him? Had David done this? No! It was the time when kings went forth to war, but David stayed at home. And we may keep ourselves from the war. I am speaking of the war, you will understand, as having to do with the outgoing of the testimony: God's war against flesh; God's war against sin! In other words, the gospel is going out; God is making no peace with the enemy. But David abode at home. He was out of the service; he elected to be out of it. He was the king, and hence he could stay at home or he could go, as he wished. He chose to abide at home when the armies were at the front. But Uriah, a man who stands out in the testimony of God -- Uriah the Hittite -- one of the most remarkable men in Scripture, would not think of himself when the armies of God were engaged in battle. That is the kind of spirit that is required amongst us, that we have the testimony in our minds pre-eminently. That was Uriah! He gave his life for it. Even though David arranged for him to be put in the forefront, his life was given for the testimony.

And so we see David electing to abide at home. When we elect to do something such as this and make an arrangement which fits in with what we want naturally, it gives the enemy an opening. Satan takes

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advantage of it. Think of what had come about in David's heart -- that heart that God had looked upon with delight! It shows that though we may have been delightful to God we might lose that by some arrangement that we make for ourselves. It only shows what is possible if we hold back from taking our part in the testimony. But David was subject to the prophetic word. The prophetic character of things in our meetings is of the greatest importance. There is opportunity in the local gatherings for the prophetic word to develop. God may give you a thought in a prophetic meeting. Something comes into your heart and you know it is from God. Well, give it out! God will help you. He made your mouth. He will give you more than is in your heart. As we are prepared to give out something which God has given us it is surprising what He will do. Let us not think that we cannot do things, but let us try to do something -- do the work of an evangelist! At the same time we need to be in right relations with God, for therein lies the prosperity of our souls and of whatever gift there may be. But if we are like David, giving in to natural desires and the working of the flesh, and we step aside for that, we are just hindering the work of God in us. But the prophetic word is to arouse us. It aroused David to self-judgment. So we have a Solomon -- a Jedidiah. God loved him. Christ is the true Solomon, the true Son of David: "This is my beloved Son". God's delight is in Him. He loves Him. But He is seeking to extend this great matter, and His delight in His people, too.

I read from Isaiah because we get some very fine references there to those things. In chapter 61 the terebinths of righteousness come out as the result of the gospel. The chapter opens with: "The Spirit of the Lord Jehovah is upon me". The Lord quotes from this passage in Luke's gospel. But the end of the paragraph refers to the terebinths of righteousness.

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They are to be seen in the local meetings to support the position -- to outline the position, what it is. In every locality there is to be the shining forth of this righteousness, and it is to give character to the locality. The more we are in the sense of that position the more the saints will prosper. We may have the sorrowful side of things, but the prophetic word comes in and makes way for those whom God loves, and makes way for peace.

The chapter goes on to show that the waste places are made to grow trees for Jehovah and the whole position is recovered to God. It looks on to the future day when Israel shall be in her place, but it has an application to ourselves, how God is bringing about a better condition amongst us through these trees of His planting -- these terebinths of righteousness, and through self-judged conditions amongst us. He is bringing about a happy state of things in our localities as we get closer together, delighting in one another.

The sixty-second chapter speaks of Zion and Jerusalem. These are names that we can apply to ourselves: Zion and Jerusalem. There may be but a small number of brethren in a locality, but there it is Zion and Jerusalem -- the outshining of righteousness, the outshining of light from the place, so if anyone wants to see it he can see it. So the land is no more given up; it is no more forsaken. God does not forsake our positions. He wants to show us He is very close to us, and the name is given here: 'Hephzibah' and 'Beulah'. These two names are not used much now, but they have great meaning in them: 'My delight is in her', and 'Married'. The likeness is to a young man with his bride; the kind of conditions that God is looking for in our localities; the urgency of affection that is to be present amongst us. We are to love those who are far away, of course, but loving those who are near us is the way the matter works out. We are to bear with one another in love. We often offend one

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another; we are not perfect yet. There are many things about us that try one another, but the word is to bear with one another in love; and again, to forgive if ye have anything against any one. It is the very language of the mercy-seat, and it proves that we have been there and know what it is. So there is to be no distance between us as we are together, and the word is, "My delight is in her". God is looking for that delight in our positions locally. It works practically in that we have pleasure in one another. We do not seek to get away from one another, but to be together. The local company is the working out of Zion and Jerusalem. The word in this chapter is, "For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not be still". God is in this matter, and He will not hold His peace. He will not be still until He brings about what Zion is in our localities. Zion speaks of the principle of God's sovereignty -- the sovereign selection that enters into our blessing. "And of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her", Psalm 87:5. God has selected us, that is the principle. We leave that, it is God's matter. "For Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not be still, until her righteousness go forth as brightness, and her salvation as a torch that burneth". How blessed to think of our localities in this way, with righteousness shining forth and salvation as a torch! Think of the gospel going forth in power in our meetings. We need to be like Noah, a preacher of righteousness. He had to hold the torch against a generation that was mocking him. Let the shining of the glorious gospel of Christ go forth! Let the mercy-seat be in evidence!

So it goes on to say, "And the nations shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory; and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of Jehovah will name". The name is what should mark our localities at the present time: 'My delight is in her',

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and 'Married'. This is to mark the local position: God's delight there and the position married. Young people think much about marriage. It is right in its setting if it is under control. But how sad if otherwise! What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? Lawlessness describes the world, the mark that is upon the world. Men do what they like. Lawlessness is sin -- it is doing what the natural heart wants to do. But righteousness restricts me to the limits of the will of God. In the fellowship marriage is within those limits "She is free to be married to whom she will, only in the Lord", 1 Corinthians 7:39.

Think of the energy of love that is present with us spiritually when we are together in our localities in our thoughts and affections. What a crown of glory! Jehovah delights in that. So it speaks of the land being married: "For as a young man marrieth a virgin, shall thy sons marry thee; and with the joy of the bridegroom over the bride, shall thy God rejoice over thee", verses 4, 5. The thought is that we might see these things working out in our localities where we are so close to one another. Surely every one of us would admit that we need some adjustment in ourselves that we may fit together better: "each esteeming the other as more excellent than themselves", Philippians 2:3.

Well, may we be in exercise that God may have delight in us and that we may have delight in one another -- that God may rejoice over us with singing!

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A CHRISTIAN

Acts 11:22, 30; Acts 12:5, 20, 24

I have in my mind to speak about the word christian. It appears first in Acts 11 in connection with Saul. In Acts 13 it is said of him that he is Paul, not simply, that he called Paul; he was called that, but the comment of the Spirit is, that he was that. He had been greatly reduced, made very little, as the name indicates.

The overpoweringness of grace is wonderful, for grace is on the throne! There is nothing else on the throne today. The Lord knew Saul and He would have him as a chosen vessel for His service. Saul had stood and held the clothes of those that stoned Stephen. It was a deliberate act. How the Lord watched him in the slaying of the Lord's lover and follower. He says to Saul, "why persecutest thou Me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks". The Lord had noted that his conscience had been touched. The Lord had devised a way to reach him and His way cannot be improved upon. His way was by grace. "Grace might reign through righteousness unto eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". Ananias goes and finds him and calls him 'Brother', and says, "the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost". Saul was to be filled. Stephen was filled, and Saul was to be a counterpart of the martyr. This young man was introduced to the saints by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Wonderful for the Lord to introduce His converts to the saints, and to a place among them! This was the beginning of Saul's history as a christian, and he was with the disciples before he said anything about Christ. He was in fellowship with them, and then he goes to the synagogue and announces boldly that Jesus is the Son of God. Now he is to be disciplined. That is important

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in the history of a convert to Christ, for we must be reduced. The fact that we are converted does not save us from being self-opinionated. Directly you have self in view, the work of God is hindered; the Spirit is grieved, and there is no more headway. Hence the Lord comes in, in discipline. This servant was let down over the wall in a basket so as to escape from danger; how very humiliating! In Acts 11. Barnabas brought him to Antioch to the disciples, and that little reduced man was with the disciples at Antioch a whole year. He was there twelve months, and is then called Paul, which means 'Little'. He is now a little man, subdued and reduced outwardly. Now it is at Antioch, where Paul was twelve months, that the disciples are first called christians. They were called christians first at Antioch. A christian is a man who has been influenced by Paul, if you understand. Disciples had been known before, but not christians. Christianity is the embodiment of the Spirit of Christ serving the needs of the world; hence, Paul and Barnabas serving effectively, you find the name christian.

Now I want to show you the opposition of the spirit of antichrist. Agabus prophesies at Antioch of a dearth to come, and those with means immediately send help to Judaea. The occasion became a testimony to the Spirit of Christ in the gentile world, in their sending relief to the needy saints in Judaea, to Jews. What a triumph for God! The gentiles contributing according to God to Jews! That is christianity. Satan would blot that out, and at that time Herod the king stretched forth his hand to vex certain of the assembly; he laid his hand on some. I believe antichrist arises in the last phase, in opposition to the headship of Christ, and to the Spirit of Christ in those who acknowledge Him as Head. Who is a christian but one who is in the light of Christ as Head? A christian is the reproduction of Christ in service to men in the world. Satan would

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blot that out. Herod is the antichrist in figure. Herod vexed certain of the assembly and killed James, the brother of John, with the sword. Then, seeing it pleased the Jews, he goes further. That is the idea of antichrist. There are things done around now that are openly contrary to God and Christ. We have to face the antichristian spirit today. Something is done; say, the disestablishment of what has stood for long, in a way, in Christ's name; and it pleases the people. The leaders of the world are dependent on the people. The christian is independent of the people. He is here for Christ, so he suffers. If anyone suffers as a christian, "let him glorify God on this behalf". You suffer for you are not popular if you are a christian. The crowd is not pleased with you. Herod saw that what he did pleased the people, the Jews, so he went further. We have to face that today. The idea of christianity is the reproduction of Christ the heavenly Man in His own here in the world. Paul was the embodiment of it. He was a little man, out of sight, ready to serve, do anything, serve tables, or what else, and his influence and teaching brought about christians, and antichrist would blot out such. Satan takes a king to do it. A king may advance antichristian principles in this world. I am not saying anything against kings, but, thank God, there is a limit! Herod went further, and took Peter, but much prayer was made by the assembly, and that is the checking power, thank God! It is our privilege as christians, and prayer is not unavailing. Peter was delivered, and so we as christians may reckon on the delivering power of God in answer to our prayer. There is power to check antichristian principles, and it works by prayer. We may suffer as christians, but we glorify God; it is by being 'little', not by seeking a high position in the world, but being content to be obscure, glorifying God in that name, christian, by the Spirit of Christ. Look at Paul in

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chains at Caesarea! When he appears before all the pomp and glory of Agrippa, and Agrippa says to him, "In a little thou persuadest me to be a christian", Paul answers, "I would to God that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether" -- like Christ? No! "such as I am, except these bonds". He was happy in them. He was a christian there, superior in those bonds, so that he could desire all present to be just as he was; it was love to say that. He was the product of the gospel, a triumph for God, and was himself triumphant. A christian suffers, and as such glorifies God; he does so in that name, as a christian. Let the name be true of us; and to meet the antichristian spirit our resource is in prayer. Herod was a good speaker, and the people said, "it is the voice of a god". He was smitten when he assumed divine prerogatives. We need not smite them. God will smite when antichrist says he is God, "whom the Lord shall destroy ... with the brightness of his coming". Let us be restful as christians, and glorify God in this name!

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READING AND PRAYER

Daniel 9

I want to dwell on the thought of understanding, and in order to make it clear I refer to Daniel. Daniel tells us that he "understood by the books". I do not urge you to read everything, but it is important to read. We read of Ezra as "ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the Lord God of Israel had given", Ezra 7:6. I would be disposed to read anything that Ezra wrote. I am not saying that Daniel acquired his knowledge by such literature (he speaks of the books, the Scriptures) as may have been written to meet the local need of the saints, but I have no doubt that Daniel would gladly read any helpful production, and if you cannot hear a man whom God has qualified to minister, then do not despise what he may write, for God uses scribes. There was a scribe in David's regime; there was a chronicler also. The scribe, or secretary, was a man who would write down at the king's mouth what the king might wish to communicate. Such a man is of great importance, especially in a day like the present, when the saints are so widely scattered, and many isolated. The preacher in Ecclesiastes indicates the exercises of one employed in this service. He says: "The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth", Ecclesiastes 12:10.

The Holy Spirit has given much for the people of God and it is for us to get the benefit of what is available. So it says, "The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd". There are words of wisdom, words of truth, carefully set down as food for the saints. Well now, Daniel said he understood by books, and by these books he gathered that there were certain time limitations, seventy years, and then there should be a return of the captivity. We gather the

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mind of God in this way from reading. Daniel understood by books that there should be a return of the captivity after seventy years, and so he prays.

I have been speaking about reading. Now I would urge prayer. How much do we pray, dear brethren? How far do we travel in our prayers? The more you are with God the wider shall become the area covered by your prayers, until the whole household of faith is embraced, and indeed 'all men'. Do not be satisfied with your prayers until you, as it were, cover the whole household of faith. As Scripture enjoins: "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints", Ephesians 6:18.

So Daniel set his face to pray; and then it says, "whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God for the holy mountain of my God; Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation". What a wonderful experience that was! It was about the time of the evening oblation, and that was what his prayer was. It was an oblation; it ascended to God. And so Gabriel speaks to him: "he informed me, and talked with me". Is it not worth while to pray? Pray on, until you, as it were, receive a divine communication. Something from the Lord will come into your soul. "He informed me", he says, "and talked with me". Those of us here who have had to do with God in prayer know something about this. It is a wonderful experience to have to say to God, and as you pray and embrace the saints in your prayers, you get an impression from God; you become assured He has heard you. "If we know that he hear us ... we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him". It is

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inexpressibly precious to be conscious that God hears us. And then it says further, "and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding". These things are all within our reach.

Is there any young brother who desires to have the mind of God? "Consider what I say;" says Paul, "and the Lord give thee understanding", but prayer enters into this. Gabriel says further: "At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved". Think of that! As you are praying, God looks into your heart; He knows what is going on in your heart, and He greatly loves you, as you pray, taking into account, as Daniel did, the state of His people, bearing them on your heart before Him. And then it goes on: "therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision". And now look! "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy".

As we look abroad in the world as it is, what a message this is! "To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to ... bring in everlasting righteousness". God had determined seventy weeks and there cannot be seventy-one. There shall be just seventy; seventy weeks are determined. What are they determined for? "To finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity". What great results to look forward to for a man like Daniel! And then, "To bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy". Can anything fail? No! There were just seventy weeks determined for the accomplishment of all these things. And who acquires the knowledge of this? The man who reads and the

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man who prays! He comes into the light of all these great facts. In like manner the mind of God may be acquired by ourselves. Thus by reading and prayer, we become like the men of Issachar, we have understanding of the times; we know the times, and not only that, we know what Israel ought to do. And that to me involves assembly obligations at the present time.

You may ask, Where is the assembly? Well, I cannot show you the assembly but I know it exists here on earth. "The Lord knows those that are his"; and if I am an Ephesian saint, so to speak, I love all the saints. I am concerned about them all; I pray for them, for I have 'understanding of the times', and I know 'what Israel ought to do'. Hence it is a question of assembly obligation and, as we apprehend that, we clothe the saints with assembly thoughts. The Lord clothes them thus. As we sit down to partake of the Lord's supper we are taking it in the light of the assembly and the Lord views us in that light. If others are not there we miss them, if we are with God. The Lord misses them. The Supper belongs to the assembly and every member of the assembly should partake of it. If not, why not? If something is wrong, judge it; there is grace with the Lord to adjust you, so that you should be qualified to respond to His desire. Those who have 'understanding of the times' know that Israel ought to do that, and it is for you to have part in it. Time is precious and it is for us to fill it out, not only in regard to our personal history but the history of the assembly; the little that remains is to be redeemed and used for the Lord and naught else.

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Pages 479 - 746 -- "Notes of Readings in New York and other Ministry", 1949 (Volume 178).

HEADSHIP BELONGING TO THE WILDERNESS POSITION

1 Corinthians 11:1 - 16

J.T. This scripture is proposed as bringing out the feature of headship that belongs to the wilderness position; hence the order in which it is given in this chapter, "that the Christ is the head of every man", verse 3, which has to be taken as general, and then, "but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God". That is the public position. Headship in Colossians and Ephesians is more inward, bearing on the words 'Son' and 'eternity'; it has a more spiritual nature, dealing not only with believers, or those in the assembly, but including those in the millennium and those in eternal bliss. Headship runs through. But this epistle has to do with it in its public relations now, so it is said, "every man". The types help us as usual; it is the position in the wilderness. The idea of the acknowledgment of headship is very slight in the wilderness, whether it be in Zipporah or in the later wife that Moses had; there is very little said as to what they were personally.

J.S. Does headship necessarily involve the body?

J.T. Well, we will hardly get to that part yet. It is 'every man' here, and the head of every woman is the man, and the Christ's head is God. So that it is the general position in creation that is in mind.

A.R. In Colossians Christ is head of the body but in Ephesians He is head to the assembly.

J.T. Yes; Christ is "head over all things to the assembly, which is his body", Ephesians 1:22, which refers to the Person of Christ. It is part of His glory that He

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is Head of the body, the assembly. It says, "And he is the head of the body, the assembly", Colossians 1:18. But the particular point of the subject today is headship in this epistle, and how it bears on the testimony. We hardly come to headship of the assembly in this epistle. It is what is preliminary to it, and without what we get here we can hardly speak of headship in the assembly.

J.S. What then is in view? Is it subjection?

J.T. It is clearly subjection in each of us, but it is a public matter. It is a testimony that Christ is Head of every man. So that it is what comes under men's eyes as a testimony; not simply what appears in the assembly in its varied functions, but the testimony to Christ's rights over all men, and how it is the ordering of God that God is Christ's Head, and the head of every woman is the man, whoever the man may be, or whoever the woman may be. It is a testimony to God in creation, and it stands now.

A.N.W. It is not a matter of husband and wife then?

J.T. No; it is God, Christ, man, woman. So that it is universal.

W.B-w. When David was in the wilderness he first went to the cave of Adullam and four hundred men collected around him, and he became a captain over them. Would this feature of headship come out in him in that way?

J.T. Well, in so far as a captain would represent it. It is not simply military authority, but wisdom. The Lord is in the apostle's mind as marking everything publicly.

A.P.T. How do you regard Michal, David's wife, in relation to this chapter?

J.T. She never came under headship. In 1 Samuel we see David coming into publicity as slaying Goliath; that is, cutting off his head. That deals with headship,

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but who came under David's headship is a question. Perhaps the only one was Abigail. But we are speaking now of the assembly in relation to Christ, and primarily of the ordering of God and the position as it stands publicly. That is, if I am converted I revert to the ordering of God, that He is Head, supreme Head. Wisdom was in God in the creation and has been ever since. So that it is a question now of wisdom; how the creation is to be ordered and what testimony there is in believers as to this. I know well enough that the race as a whole knows nothing of God's rights over it, but there is to be a testimony in believers now as to God's rights before He enters on them in the millennium. As soon as you get converted you come to see that the creation stands in relation to God. It is all a question of wisdom. It is not even the household here, it is just the ordering of the public creation.

R.W.S. Is headship functioning in Moses in Exodus 18:2: "And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back"?

J.T. There is no evidence of headship there as I see it. The things that happen are between Moses and his father-in-law. It is a very disjointed situation. What happened in that chapter suggests what wilderness conditions are as in the assembly. Zipporah is only brought in as Moses' wife; she does not do anything, nor do her sons do anything. It is a question of what her father does, and what Moses and he converse about.

J.S. Is Adam seen in this light in Genesis 2?

J.T. Well, in so far as the lower creation is concerned. But it is a question here, not of the cows or the horses, but of God, Christ, man and woman. When Eve was presented to Adam he named her, and said she was of himself, but that is all you get.

J.S. Is headship presented here abstractly to bring about order in the assembly at Corinth?

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J.T. It is to bring out now what christians are representing. What testimony do we bear to this great truth? It is not a question of headship in the assembly, it is a question of headship in the public ordering of God, which will be manifest in every man in the world in the millennial day; but it is a question now of what testimony is presented to the world.

F.H.L. How do you view Moses as king in Jeshurun in relation to this?

J.T. King is not head exactly. "And he was king in Jeshurun, When the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together", Deuteronomy 33:5. It has a bearing on headship, but that is towards the end of the wilderness. They were beginning to see how valuable a man Moses was, which did not appear in the early days. It is what we learn and come into by knowing God and God's Christ. We begin to see how great a thing we are related to, what we are to learn by it, and how to reflect it in our own conduct.

A.R. Does Romans 5 fit in with what you are saying: "For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous", verse 19?

J.T. That brings out the moral worth of the Person. It gradually grows on you what we have in Christ. What was He to God? How did He act toward God? So that the divine idea in the creation is reflected in the christian now. It is a question of bringing each of us into this matter, and whether we are reflecting the idea in a public way.

Ques. Zipporah did not go back with Moses apparently. She did not respect him, nor was she capable of helping him in the passage of the Red Sea and all that follows. Is there any lesson to be learned in that?

J.T. It is what was defective in her. There was

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no aid at all rendered. How could headship come out? There was no wife there. Every Israelitish woman ought to have been subject to man, and not only to Moses, but to every man there.

A.P-f. Is that in contrast to what is abroad in the world now, women seeking equality with men?

J.T. That is right. The whole position is dislocated. There is a want of wisdom in the whole matter. Where is the wisdom in what is current? So that it is a very wide subject, and the bearing of it on the public side is what is in mind now.

Rem. The apostle seems to be a model in this in himself. He says, "do all things to God's glory ... Even as I also please all in all things; not seeking my own profit, but that of the many, that they may be saved", 1 Corinthians 10:31 - 33.

J.T. Yes; he brings himself in as a model throughout. We begin here with that. "Be my imitators, even as I also am of Christ", chapter 11: 1. That is how the thing works out. The Corinthians were going on with certain things he had directed, and he praises them for it, but he says, "But I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God". And then he calls attention to this matter of covering and no covering, and the glory of God and of man, and of what is seemly; and that there must be no contention. That is how the passage stands.

Rem. What the woman should observe is that even Christ is subject here; even Christ Himself became subject. If He became subject it is quite simple to understand the rest of the ordering. He is said to be subject to God; God is Christ's Head.

J.T. That comes out fully in chapter 15 where He takes the place of subjection eternally. But here, as you say, God is Christ's Head. That is clear enough. If you examine Christ's history on earth you will find

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that out, and if you examine Paul's history on earth you will find that Christ was his Head. So that the matter is brought out here publicly. It is the principle that is going to prevail and bring about a condition governed by wisdom, with which the creation began. When God made everything, wisdom was there, and it had a first place with God. Wisdom says she was God's delight, so that things were done that way, and headship now is the development of wisdom. It is how things should be done.

J.S. Does verse 1 show the thing had taken concrete form in the apostle himself?

J.T. That is what we were saying, "Be my imitators", verse 1. He had already told them he had sent Timothy to them, "who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ", chapter 4: 17.

A.P.T. "The Christ" -- what is in that?

J.T. Literally presented it could be 'Messiah', but in christianity it works out that God does everything by Him, and that involves wisdom. Even the Lord Himself takes the place of not knowing anything; He says He receives everything from His Father.

A.B.P. Have we a concrete example of it working out in John 4? The wisdom is seen in the Lord's words to the woman to put her in right relations to Himself and then He brings in God.

J.T. I think that is good. And she, when released on her own, so to speak, leaves the water-pot behind and goes into the city. She is governed not only by evangelical instincts, but by headship, by wisdom. She goes to the men. It is a question of bringing the men into accord with Christ. She says, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?" verse 29. The men must be regulated.

A.N.W. Is God Himself seen as working on this principle when He approaches the man in the garden? He addresses the man, and then the man exposes the

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failure of both the head and the woman by saying to God, "The woman, whom thou hast given to be with me", Genesis 3:12.

J.T. She ignored headship, otherwise she would not have listened to anybody but her husband. It is remarkable that Genesis 2 is alluded to in this passage, "For man is not of woman, but woman of man", verse 8. It is remarkable how frequently in the New Testament we get an allusion to Genesis 2 as governing the present position. In 1 Timothy, Genesis 3 is alluded to, that the woman was in the transgression, but here it is the origin of the woman. So that it is clear that Eve missed the thing in listening to the serpent. Why should she listen to the lowest creature when she had such a being as Adam? So that the dislocation began and it is continuing; perhaps never more manifest than now.

A.C. Would you regard Rebecca in Genesis 24 in this light in her subservient position to Abraham's servant?

J.T. She is ready to serve.

A.C. She says, "Drink, my lord!" Genesis 24:18.

J.T. Yes; "I will draw water for thy camels also, until they have drunk enough". Zipporah does not offer anything to Moses. She leaves him outside. Moses had delivered Jethro's daughters out of the hands of the shepherds, and when they went back home to their father he said, "Why are ye come so soon today?" When they told him about Moses he said, "And where is he?" Exodus 2:20. What about the man? Where is the man? He has been helping you, but where is he? I do not suppose Zipporah ever came into the recognition of headship, because she started wrongly. Eve started wrongly too; she did not respect the head. But Rebecca started aright.

Ques. Would headship be seen in John 6 where the Lord says to the disciples, "Make the men sit down", verse 10?

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J.T. It was a question of wisdom. The lack of wisdom is the great defect among the brethren, what to do in a given crisis.

W.B-w. Abigail got light as to the folly of the head she was under. Nabal was a fool, and she recognised that the whole system was dislocated; she cleared herself of that and came to David.

J.T. She judged that, and I suppose in the book of Samuel she is the only one that did.

T.N.W. When would you say verse 3 first applied? When God made Jesus both Lord and Christ?

J.T. I would say He was Head to every man when He was here. Whenever a man came into contact with Him, he got right. Whenever a woman came into contact with Him she got right. It is stressed as you run through the gospels how persons got right as soon as they came into contact with Christ.

A.A.T. At the preaching, would you announce Him as Head?

J.T. Yes. He is Head of every man, every man in the world. It is the order; no matter whether men recognise it or not, there it is. It is a question of who is representing it, who is exhibiting it, so that it can be seen in some sense. It is how we are in our public relations, that is the point in this epistle; the saints in the public position where anybody can see them.

R.W.S. Coming down to our own cities or towns, if a believer is asked to do something and says he cannot, and gives as his reason that he must be subject to Christ, is that the working out of it, or is it deeper than that?

J.T. It is a question of whether I am subject to the brethren, whether I can be subject to the brethren. It works out that way.

A.N.W. I was struck with your carrying it out to others.

J.T. It is the dislocation of the whole position. It

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is not simply disobedience and lawlessness, it is dislocation. Wherever the elements in the universe are not governed by this order there is dislocation.

J.H.H. David spoke about being base in his own sight; "and of the handmaids that thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour", 2 Samuel 6:22.

J.T. Quite so; Michal despised him. If I cannot respect a man, how can I be subject to him? It is not only a question of your husband, but of any man; we want to respect one another. Michal despised her husband.

J.H.H. And it was at a very spiritual point. She despised him at a most spiritual point. She was ready to love him naturally, but not on spiritual lines.

J.T. It is said she loved him, but what kind of love was it?

A.R. Saul of Tarsus came under headship in the heavenly vision, and then he was told to go into the city. Would that fit in here?

J.T. That does fit in. The Scriptures are full of it. If you go back to creation, according to Proverbs you will see how wisdom had a great personal position there. Some say it is the Lord Jesus, but it is not so. Not that I would be contradictory of persons who have said it, but it cannot be so. Jehovah who is operating is Christ, and wisdom is a quality, as you might say, the nursling of His love; as if Jehovah, or God, gave such a place to wisdom because it is so essential to the continuance of what is in hand, to the universe. It is to continue and it was made in perfection because wisdom was there. If you bring that down now to man -- the human race, or to households, the family institution -- if wisdom has not its place there is dislocation. There is no dislocation in the heavens as far as we can see; all up there goes on functioning day and night. But when you come down to angels and to men there is dislocation with angels first; and now with men because man has

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brought in dislocation through want of subjection. But that is only the beginning of the trouble due to the lack of wisdom and lack of the recognition of the place wisdom has. Wisdom is present in the order of headship -- God, Christ, man, woman; that is to say, in relation to the responsible elements of the human race. Unless headship is recognised there is dislocation. It is not simply subjection, but headship in this order.

J.S. In John 3 Nicodemus missed it, but in John 4 the woman gained the point. I suppose we see it concretely there.

J.T. I would not say Nicodemus missed it entirely. He missed the idea of new birth. I should say he came into it afterwards, because even in the council he says, "Does our law judge a man before it have first heard from himself, and know what he does?" John 7:51. John the evangelist will bring out whatever is of God in a man, even if he waits until the last chapter but one. Nicodemus is justified in chapter 19. He was concerned about Christ, that He should have a proper burial. That is beautiful, because the prophets show that the intent was that He should be degraded in His burial. Nicodemus honoured Christ to that extent, at least.

Ques. Is the thought of headship lost sight of in the world, and only taken on and realised by the people of God?

J.T. That is right; that is the point we are at. It is to work out at Corinth. Athens was the centre of learning at that time; the Greeks claimed to have wisdom, but it was not the wisdom of God. You get it in Paul; at any rate, God, Christ, Paul. The Corinthians are paying attention to Paul, that is the point he is making here. He says, I am praising you that you are keeping my directions; "but", he says; that big 'but'. There was a great want there, and then he tells them what it was.

C.A.M. Did the Lord in speaking to the Pharisees

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indicate that they were not wisdom's children?

J.T. That is just what we are bringing out. Paul says, "Be my imitators"; he was one of wisdom's children, there was no question about that. "Wisdom is justified of all her children", and Paul was one of them, and he is now endeavouring to bring the Corinthians into this matter. If they are wisdom's children there will be no dislocation in their homes or in their businesses or in any public relation, or in the assembly viewed publicly; because that is the point, what is to be seen publicly.

A.B.P. How do things work out practically in a home where, it may be, the sister is much more intellectual and more able than her husband?

J.T. The tax would be on her to be humble. There is something in the husband that she has not got. She may start with that for a certainty. There is something in him that she cannot have, and she has to find that out, because God has put it there. It is no question of qualification here at all. If God has said this is so I have to find out the reason. You may take any case you like, the woman will have to find out where that something is. God is asserting that there is something she has to recognise, and verse 10 says she has to have authority on her head; that authority is in the man, wherever he is.

A.P.T. The man was first.

J.T. The man was on the scene first. "For man is not of woman, but woman of man". Where is Adam? We have to start there. Eve had to recognise that.

A.B.P. There would be help in bringing out the apostle's thought rather than in bringing forward personalities.

J.T. Quite so. God has not said this and formed creatures that cannot answer to it. Well, you may say, such and such a man is very weak. But still we have to remember what is there in the sense of wisdom and

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balance. Aquila and Priscilla are mentioned three times each. They would stake their neck; they are sacrificial people. Priscilla would never take the lead in the presence of her husband, I am sure.

A.N.W. Do you mean to say that if the husband is really deficient the wife is not to take his place as head?

J.T. If she makes room for what is there, and if she looks for it, she will be sure to find it. In finding it she will have to judge herself and take a low place.

A.R. This also applies to what is going on between brothers and sisters?

J.T. Yes; what is going on between men and women.

A.B.P. Are we not tested most in a practical way in the relations between man and wife?

J.T. That is where the thing is working out concretely. We are in the closest relations there. Refer back to Genesis, and what have you there? One man and one woman. It is a question of how they stand in relation to each other, and the governing thing is, woman is of the man.

A.B.P. If in the case of a weak brother this abstract thing is recognised, and the sister seeks to be subject and the brother seeks wisdom from God, the natural thing will be reversed; God will give him wisdom, and the wife will see there is something in him that she never saw before.

J.T. That is it. We shall get regulated quickly enough if we recognise what is already clear. There can be no question of the headship of God and Christ.

J.S. Would not the virtuous woman fit in in that connection?

J.T. She shows that she looks after her husband's interests, and that is what we are saying about the woman of Samaria. She looks after the Lord's interests, and in doing that she goes to the men. She herself saw everything in Christ.

A.P.T. Our brother spoke about husband and wife,

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but what about the sisters at Bethany -- Lazarus and the two sisters? Is there something in that house in regard of this chapter? Is anything lacking there in relation to this matter?

J.T. I do not know that there is; the three would refer to the remnant of Israel, I suppose, from the standpoint of this chapter. Lazarus would be head of his family, in the sense of being one brother and two sisters. No doubt the Lord had in mind that he should be greater when he was raised than he ever was before. You can understand it would give him a great advantage in the house, and when the Lord came there finally you can see the advantage, because Lazarus had his place. There was no criticism with Martha any more; she serves. She does not complain that Mary is not serving. It does not even say whether Mary was serving. When the Lord went to that house first, Mary was sitting at the Lord's feet and Martha complained that she was not serving. Now Martha is serving; she is doing it and she is not complaining about Mary, although there is no evidence that she was actually serving too. So that it is quite evident the condition has been bettered. And how did the betterment come in? John's gospel brings out what God has effected, however little it be; he will stress that and omit other things.

A.A.T. When the Lord went into that house, would He be Head?

J.T. As far as Martha was concerned, when He went there first He was not. She says, "Lord, dost thou not care?" (Luke 10:40) implying that the Lord had not wisdom or He would have told Mary to get up and do something. There is nothing said about Lazarus at all in Luke; it is only John that tells us he is raised, and that he comes into his place, because he is one of those that sits at table with the Lord as if he were the one principally in mind.

R.W.S. In verse 4, is the absence of covering in the

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man and the covering in the woman a public matter?

J.T. Yes; it is a question of what is in the assembly; what anybody would see that might be there. It would doubtless be different from anything they would see in any other congregation in Corinth. People would come in and say, The women are all covered, and the men are all uncovered; it is not so in the Jewish synagogue. I cannot say what it would be like in the heathen synagogue. But here it is a question of headship; God, Christ, man, woman.

R.W.S. What about a brother praying in private prayer, for instance in a subway? Should he remove his hat?

J.T. I always do. What do you do yourself?

R.W.S. I must confess sometimes I have, and sometimes I have not.

W.B-w. In coming into the meeting, a brother comes in and takes off his hat, and a sister comes in and leaves her hat on. It is how we come in and sit down with one another.

J.T. Yes; the man is the glory of God, and angels are looking on; and the woman is man's glory; well, that should be covered. It is a sign of authority; the word authority would mean she was recognising what was above her.

W.B-w. You mean by the public side, when the brethren are coming together, and everyone sees what is going on?

J.T. Wherever there is prayer and prophesying, this is the order.

W.R-n. Some brothers do not wear hats at all; they have nothing to take off.

J.T. Well, they do not have them on in the meeting. Still, you wonder if it is not just copying the world's way. Very often it is so.

Ques. The apostle says in chapter 2 of this epistle, "But we speak God's wisdom in a mystery", verse 7. Would that be the development of it?

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J.T. This book makes a great deal of wisdom; the wisdom of the Greeks, the wisdom of this world, and the wisdom of God.

F.N.W. You remarked before that we must recognise the principle of subjection to the brethren. Proverbs 8 says, "Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding give forth her voice? On the top of high places by the way, at the cross-paths she taketh her stand. Beside the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors, she crieth aloud", verses 1 - 3. Do you look for that recognition in those seeking a place among the saints, the gates and the recognition of wisdom and headship?

J.T. Quite so. Wisdom is crying out. The book of Proverbs would be well worth looking into from this point of view, because wisdom is personified strikingly in Proverbs, and away back in the beginning of time. So that it is a question now of the children; and they, of course, would be christians. Wisdom is justified of all her children in the way they recognise how wisdom works, and how it flows down from God through Christ to the man and to the woman.

W.B-w. In the book of Proverbs there is a man speaking froward things, and a woman subtle of heart, and there is a young man going into the house of the foolish woman. Would that be just the dislocation that has come in?

J.T. Clearly.

A.N.W. Would you say how this basis of shamefulness and comeliness is established?

J.T. Go down to verse 13: "Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman should pray to God uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you, that man, if he have long hair, it is a dishonour to him? But woman, if she have long hair, it is glory to her; for the long hair is given to her in lieu of a veil". To what is the apostle alluding? Where is all this information acquired? Clearly the allusion is to the presence of the

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Spirit of God in relation to the testimony, and thus these things were developed. The christians at Corinth should know them. That is, I must begin at the beginning. The chapter contemplates Genesis 2, but that chapter does not say anything about long hair or short hair in the man or the woman. But I must begin there and follow the line, and see what developed in the way of seemliness in the race, especially in those that are identified with God's testimony. Take, for instance, the fact that Adam was the first. It is said that Enoch was the seventh from Adam. What does that mean? There was another Enoch, he was Cain's son. He was not the seventh from Cain, he was the first from Cain. But our Enoch is the seventh from his head. What does that mean? That means he is a learner; a learner retrospectively. He will not miss anything that God has done in relation to His testimony. That is, I suppose, what Enoch represents. Before he was translated he had this testimony, that he pleased God. That is, he walked with God three hundred years. What information would he acquire? Would God not bring to him something that was developed in Adam that Enoch should know? In the school of God, God would not only give historical things, things that are profitable to know, but you may be sure God would give fresh information to Enoch. He was a learner, and I think that is the principle that is alluded to here; that we are to know things. It is shameful at times how little is known. Every one of us should know. It is because of carelessness that we do not know.

J.T.Jr. In Matthew's gospel we have divine instruction. I suppose the assembly is formed on this line, on instruction that comes from heaven.

J.T. Exactly. It is said that if a man is a farmer his God does instruct him. It is a remarkable thing. His God instructs him in relation to putting a seed into the ground. And Peter says a man is to dwell with his wife according to knowledge (1 Peter 3:7). What knowledge?

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The knowledge that God affords us. It is a question of whether I am attentive to the Scriptures. They are for that purpose. And so Paul says here, "But if it be shameful to a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, let her be covered", verse 6. How is she to know it is shameful? It is clearly not the Parisian customs or novelties that are in mind. It is what has come in from God. I can only be rightly ashamed of anything that is not of God. If it is not of God, I am ashamed of it.

Rem. It says in Romans 1:23, "they ... changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man"; an attempt has been made by the creature to change itself.

J.T. That chapter helps in what we are saying; it is "what was known of God". If you had talked with Enoch after three hundred years of walk with God, what disclosures there would have been! No doubt there is much that we have not received at all. The only mention we have of what Enoch said is in Jude; but it was in the divine treasury, or Jude would not have mentioned it.

Rem. Paul says, "Does not even nature itself teach you?" verse 14. It is what God intended to be known in nature.

J.T. Yes; "that man, if he have long hair, it is a dishonour to him?" It must be there is something in nature to indicate that man does not have such long hair as woman. He may grow long hair; Absalom did, making a show of it; but evidently nature indicated primarily that woman grew longer hair than man. The covering that nature affords her is a veil. The word 'veil' is not the same as the word 'covering'. Of course, it does cover, it covers the face; but there are different words used. The word 'veil' is found in verse 15, but in verse 5 the word 'uncovered' is a different word altogether; and so it says in verse 6: "But if it be

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shameful to a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, let her be covered". The word 'covered' there is different, and evidently it would include the crown of the head and not simply the face, because the face is part of the head too. The veil would, I suppose, allude to the face, what would cover your countenance, but the head is more than the face. It includes the face, but it is more than the face.

R.W.S. I think I have looked at this as the hair being one covering and the hat another covering.

J.T. The hair is given in lieu of a veil, it is used for a covering in that sense; but the other covering is for the whole top of the head. You get the idea of the head in Goliath; if his head is cut off what is there left? The countenance reflects intelligence and beauty and all that, but the head encases the source of intelligence and the source of power.

H.A.S. Rebecca put on a veil when she met Isaac.

J.T. That was, I think, that she would reserve all her beauty for Isaac, that others should not see her. That is the custom of women in the east. A woman's countenance was to be for her husband. These things are all gone to the saints now, because people have not followed the truth as it has come out. This chapter contemplates what came out from the very start of creation.

J.S. Is this provisional for the wilderness only?

J.T. It is just for us here. It does not go beyond that. There is a day coming when the assembly will be seen in her glory and beauty; the word 'apocalypse' means 'unveiling'. In the meantime there is a testimony here. There is graded headship up to God and from God down to woman.

R.W.S. When the angels observe this are they seeing God's wisdom working out now?

J.T. Certainly.

A.P.T. Is this a temporary covering? Do I understand

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that the woman is to have this covering on all the time or simply when praying and prophesying?

J.T. Well, we go by the scripture here.

F.N.W. It says that a woman should have the token of authority on her head.

J.T. That is what the translator paraphrases it to mean. We are governed by the fact that (1) when a woman is praying or prophesying she is to have her head covered; but (2) if she has the covering on all the time it is a sign of authority. That is what I thought we might see. Notice the words. The word 'authority' here is not 'veil' nor is it 'covering'. So that if she wears it always, it is a token of authority above her. That is what the thing means. That is, the authority is in the man and all the way up.

A.R. She recognises there is something in the man which she has not.

J.T. Of course, when the man is not present she is to rule the house. Proverbs 31 shows how the virtuous woman rules.

A.A.T. A ribbon or token on a sister's head is proper then?

J.T. It seems so, if we pay attention to the words used here. The Spirit of God uses different words. It is not just that authority is vested in her; the meaning of it is that there is authority above her that she is moving in relation to. The centurion says, "I also am a man under authority"; not that I have it in myself, but that I am under it. Yet he says to this one, Go, and he goes. But, he says, I am under authority. That is, there is another one above him and yet he orders. So that a woman might order her children, but she does it in relation to the authority above her.

A.R. It is like a man in a uniform -- he has conferred authority.

J.T. Quite so; it is graded authority from the general down to the private. The general has authority which

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he gets from the government, and so on down; only each recognises what is above him. That is what the centurion meant.

A.N.W. If the truth is rightly held by the woman, she has all the authority of heaven with her.

J.T. So that Proverbs 31 has been alluded to, and it is a very important chapter according to what we are saying. There is a virtuous woman, a woman of worth according to God. She carries out everything although her husband is not there. What she does when her husband is not there is the great test.

Ques. She is superior to the angels; but if she does not recognise this matter of the covering does that make her inferior?

J.T. She has no status at all if she has not got the covering on.

Rem. God says to the woman, "he shall rule over thee", Genesis 3:16.

J.T. It is well that we should know that. If she had only taken that to heart before, she would have been saved from the serpent.

A.R. In the light of Proverbs 31 Christ is known here in His absence by our comely conduct.

J.T. It is really an Ephesian touch. That truth is not here actually. It is too great for this chapter but still the principle may be brought into it.

H.A.S. It is not the kind of covering, but the fact that the woman recognises the authority or power above her. Is that right?

J.T. That is the point. What do you think about it?

H.A.S. I would like to be right about it. Some think the head should be covered completely and some think a bow on the head will do, and there is a good deal of uncertainty about it.

J.T. If we observe the words used here we shall not go far astray. The word 'covering' is greater than a

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bow; it is more extensive in thought. It means you are covered. The word 'authority' does not mean that. It may be just a token of a lesser quantity, and yet it indicates the position, as a stripe on an officer's cuff indicates his authority, his rank. I think verse 10, if you look at it simply, is a token that there is a recognition of authority above, and that gives a woman status. The angels look down and see that that woman is in her place. She is not out of rank.

Rem. It would not be comely for a woman to always wear her hat at home.

J.T. It would be uncomfortable. When you come into a public assembly such as we are in now it is quite obvious that it is more seemly to have a hat on, something that is really a covering; but verse 10 would seem to make room for the bow. The idea is that it is a token, whereas the word 'veil' covers the countenance.

A.N.W. Do the angels not seem to be the only living intelligent beings that are outside this range? They seem to be a creation outside the range of this gradation of headship, looking on.

J.T. There must be something corresponding with themselves. They are older than man, of course, and have seen more, too. They are cognisant of all the history from Adam down, so that they are watching things. The Spirit of God says in Job, "And there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah; and Satan came also among them", Job 1:6. It was clear enough that God was there, and the order would be there in the sons, but Satan would see what was going on. And that is the way it is today. Satan is here ready to do damage and dislocate what is of God among us.

Ques. What would you say about sisters walking about in the streets with their heads uncovered?

J.T. That is an extension of what we are at now. I would say it is not comely to see sisters going out uncovered.

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I think both young men and young women going out uncovered look rather worldly.

A.R. You referred to the idea of Satan dislocating. Would you say a little more of what you had in mind?

J.T. The word is plain enough. Women have more influence than they should have, taking the initiative in things, and the children get out of hand accordingly. If a man loses his way in the house, and gets out of fellowship, the enemy gets in; but if the woman is with God things might be saved.

J.H.H. Would you say the great woman of Shunem saved the situation? She called her husband after the boy had died. He could not see the point that she should go to the man of God, but she gave him his place.

J.T. That is a good allusion. And, too, Manoah's wife did the same thing; she went to her husband every time.

F.H.L. She is not even named.

J.T. No; but her name is wisdom. What comes out there is one of the names of Christ, 'Wonderful'.

W.B-w. When a woman is praying in the home with her children, that is not a public position. Should she have a covering?

J.T. Clearly. The thing ought to be there.

T.N.W. The principle is not set aside in the household where there is an unbelieving husband and a believing wife, is it?

J.T. Of course there is a great disadvantage in such a case, but another thing comes in here: "For what knowest thou, O wife, if thou shalt save thy husband? or what knowest thou, O husband, if thou shall save thy wife?" 1 Corinthians 7:16. She will not save him by saying, You do not know, or by allocating things herself. In that case she is missing something there in the way of wisdom.

R.W.S. In regard to private prayer again, do you mean the token does not do in prayer in the house?

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J.T. I think it would be better to have the covering.

A.R. What you say about an unbelieving husband and a believing wife does not alter the idea of headship in this sense, does it?

J.T. He is still head of the woman. He is constituted that. The thing is to get the principle. God has made that man, and He has given him something that the woman has not got. It is a question of the creation. The woman is of the man, and she can never be greater.

W.W.M. In regard of the angels, would it be right to say that these are holy angels and they would have understood the remarkable happening in the universe through the lawlessness of Satan himself. They would understand the matter of subjection.

J.T. Indeed they would. You are struck by the remarkable sympathy in all angelic service with God. They are so entirely with God that when the angel says something, he is called God; there is such complete representation in them. And that is the point that we should get hold of, that we are representative of God in all these things.

J.S. The angels know to obey.

J.T. Those who have been preserved do.

A.B.P. I notice in the Song of Solomon the writer refers twice to beauty behind the veil. I wondered what the principle might be.

J.T. I think it would be that the assembly, or the woman, would conceal what she is from others, not to be attractive to others, but to her husband.

A.R. She says earlier, "The keepers of the walls took away my veil from me", chapter 5: 7.

J.T. They took it away; that was because she was in a disrespectful position. She was not in her place.

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THE ASSEMBLY (1)

Revelation 19:6 - 8; Revelation 21:1 - 7, 9 - 12; Revelation 22:16, 17

J.T. We cannot take up these scriptures in their fulness, as it would take more than one reading to do this. The thought is to look at them in a cursory way with a view to getting help as to the assembly viewed as the bride. We need not confine ourselves to that aspect merely, but to the assembly, only the thought of the bride is very prominent in all these scriptures. And then, on a later occasion, if the Lord may order it, we have thought of beginning at the beginning of Scripture, that is to say, the second chapter of Genesis. We begin with that in mind and then in time the Lord will help us, doubtless, to take up the types of the assembly beginning with Eve, she being the first type, and running on down through the Scriptures. All this would be in view of arriving at the book of Revelation finally, seeing how the assembly is set in the ways of God and in the purposes of God as being His greatest thought. The greatest thought of God, next to divine Persons, is in the assembly, and it is a mystery, for only that word really covers it fully. We get the word in various places, especially in Romans and Ephesians, and elsewhere in the New Testament. The word mystery should direct us to search ourselves, to discover whether or not we understand anything of the mystery. We belong to it, and it is of prime importance that every one of us should understand what it means, at least initially, so as to function in his place in it.

The first passage before us now is Revelation 19, and it treats of the assembly as the Lamb's wife having made herself ready and therefore refers to her current history; and then chapter 21 treats of her as coming down from heaven as belonging to heaven and adorned as a bride, which is perhaps the most precious thought of the assembly. Then in verse 9 of the same chapter

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she is seen in relation to the coming age, the world to come, as we call it. Then, in verse 16 of chapter 22 we have the Lord Himself speaking to the assembly, or assemblies, as He calls them.

J.T.Jr. The reference to the marriage of the Lamb being come is a question of time? It is the historic side of things?

J.T. Just so, and you might say that it is current history; it is already a matter of fact, that the marriage of the Lamb has come.

A.R. Is that why it says, she "has made herself ready"?

J.T. "Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready", Revelation 19:7.

A.R. Is that going on now?

J.T. She "has made herself ready". It is not the adornment for her husband, as in chapter 21, but rather what she has done herself, in making herself ready for Him.

A.N.W. It is His wife here, and not the bride.

J.T. Quite so; the one who cares for His interests.

R.W.S. Is the marriage of the Lamb, in that sense, a current matter?

J.T. Well, it is a question of what we have on the first day of the week, because this dispensation is a weekly matter. It is not monthly, as it was in Israel, it is weekly. And the nuptials have already taken place; that is to say, the relation of the saints with Christ as the husband of the assembly. That has already taken place, as I understand it. What do you say about that?

R.W.S. I can see that I need adjustment on it, because I thought that there must come a time actually when the marriage is actually consummated above -- the marriage of the Lamb and the bride.

J.T. But then, I do not think we should require the Lord to wait for that, or assume ourselves to wait for it;

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the actual matter of union with Christ is already a fact. The book of Ephesians would indicate that. "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". And what he touches on before that is the relation of a man and his wife. But he says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", whereas he is enjoining on us to love our own wives, so that the point is that the relationship between Christ and the assembly is marital. The thing is already effectuated.

P.L. So that in Deuteronomy 24:5 we have the thought of the man having his wife to himself for one year before he goes forth to battle.

J.T. He was to have a season with his wife.

P.L. Yes, "When a man hath newly taken a wife, he shall not go out with the army, ... he ... shall gladden his wife whom he hath taken".

J.T. I apprehend that is a fact already, the first day of the week involving it. It is a weekly matter, but especially the first day of the week.

A.R. Is the Lord's supper the expression of the marital bond?

J.T. I think so, and rightly so. It is remarkable the place God has given 1 Corinthians 11, especially to bring out what the assembly is to Christ. And so with Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your own wives, even as the Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it". Note, that it is "your own wives", not others. Three times that word own is used there in regard to husbands and wives. And, of course, he says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", for she is His own wife. Israel is not in mind, it is the assembly, although Israel also has the place of wife. Jacob had two wives. Leah and Rachel; Leah is a type of the assembly, whereas Rachel is a type of Israel; she is first loved and she is a type of Israel. You can understand how she was first loved, historically, for Israel was there before the assembly. But now that

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the assembly has come, she is His own wife. She has that place and no other family has it but the assembly.

C.A.M. The eleventh chapter of 1 Corinthians commences with headship and our relation to Christ, and the behaviour of the woman, leading on to assembly service.

J.T. It is a mixed chapter; that is to say, the thought of the assembly is obscured by the conduct of the brethren; and that, of course, is often the case, alas! Hence the need for correction.

P.L. Is it in contrast to the Ephesian saints where the full lustre and glory of the assembly is unfolded?

J.T. Yes; he can speak of it in such a simple and feeling way, whereas to the Corinthians he speaks about having espoused them to one Man. It was just the espousal. But the marriage link is contemplated as already formed in the epistle to the Ephesians.

W.A.T. What is meant by the expression: "the supper of the marriage of the Lamb"?

J.T. That is the public, formal thing, I would say, which is yet future. Every thing has its day, things are fixed in days and in time, and the supper of the Lamb is fixed as to time.

A.R. Subjection was apparently lacking at Corinth; whereas in Ephesians the assembly is seen as subjected to the Christ.

J.T. That is true as to Ephesians, but then what we have in Revelation 19:9 is a future thing, I would think. "Blessed are they who are called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb".

R.W.S. All of this would require spirituality to take on what is mysterious. "The letter kills, but the Spirit quickens".

J.T. You have in your mind what is mysterious. I do not know if many of us know what mystery really is as applied to the assembly. The apostle says, "This

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mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly".

A.N.W. By great mystery, does he mean that it is very mysterious or that it is a magnificent mystery?

J.T. It is the magnitude of the thing, I would think; the great secret of God. Secret things belong to God.

J.T.Jr. Would the idea of the wife come out in Paul himself in his great care for the assemblies and his great love for the saints? Was the feminine side expressed in him in that way?

J.T. I would think so; what he suffered, too, how much he suffered for it. He speaks of travailing. What a place he must have with the Lord because of his suffering in that connection, his identity with the idea of the mystery, with the assembly! And so the first day of the week, as we were saying, brings it out; we come together to meet with one another, and speak with one another. At least we have each other in mind, and then we begin to see how acceptable, how beautiful the saints are and how they come under the Lord's eye in His quest for beauty. Psalm 19 brings out something like it, how the Lord comes out of His chamber. He comes out on the first day of the week, and He is looking for something that will attract Him, and that He can really love. Therefore as we meet together we can see that the Spirit puts beauty on us, and the Lord can see that beauty, and we can see it in each other.

A.S. Would you say a little more as to the mystery? Do you mean that it is little understood?

J.T. It is hardly understood at all, as far as I am concerned. I am not boasting in my ignorance; I know a little about it, but not very much. But I expect I know about as much as most, which would mean that we do not know very much about it. The apostle, at the end of the letter to Rome, touches upon it. He does not attempt to go into it, but he touches it, as if to say,

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You should all be interested in inquiring into this. And therefore he reserved it to open up more fully in other epistles.

P.L. It is that in which the spiritual are initiated, and in that sense all of us should be there, should we not?

J.T. Yes; and so he says in Ephesians 3:4: "ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery". He wanted the saints to know the knowledge he had of it, and that would mean that they should be stimulated that they should acquire something, at least, of the knowledge that Paul had; the knowledge of the assembly; knowledge of the mystery.

W.A.T. He refers to his intelligence in the mystery of the Christ. Does the understanding of the mystery require spiritual intelligence?

J.T. Quite so; that is why you get that expression in the first letter to Corinth. He says, there, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say", chapter 10: 15. It is as much as to say, Look into the matter, and see what is meant by it; read it, read the words, spell it out and see what is meant in them.

J.T.Jr. And so when Jacob said, "I know, my son, I know"; it would be referring to intelligence.

J.T. Very good; it is well worth while appealing to the brethren as to the little real knowledge there is with us as to the truth, especially as to the mystery; and that we may look into it and that these readings may develop the truth in us as to it.

J.T.Jr. Would not the idea of age enter into it? It is such a man as Jacob saying, "I know". Age would bring in intelligence; it would increase as we go on in years.

J.T. It is remarkable that he did know so much. He had to admit that his own days were few and evil, which is remarkable. And he had to admit that his days were not as the days and years of his forefathers. They undoubtedly had acquired more knowledge than

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he had, especially Abraham. But Jacob had acquired remarkable knowledge of the truth. The book of Genesis says much more about Jacob than it does about either Abraham or Isaac, and it is probably because God elected to use his age and experience and his sufferings to make him intelligent. So he could say to Joseph, "I know, my son, I know", as if Joseph should have known, but he did not; and his father has to rebuke even Joseph for his ignorance.

P.L. Does the mystery involve the way Christ is alive here in His body -- that He is the life of the body, when corporeally He is absent from the scene?

J.T. Well, that is mystery; it is a mystery that He should be in heaven, literally, and yet be here tonight, amongst us.

A.N.W. The apostle says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly". Is the way that is stated to bring before us the two entities; both being distinct?

J.T. Both distinctive, that is very good. But what has been touched on should not be forgotten; that is to say, the idea of the mystery, and the physical feature of it, that the Lord is literally in heaven tonight. He is there, and far above all heavens indeed; and yet it can be said that He is here, for in Matthew it is never said that He went to heaven. The assumption is, in Matthew, that He is here. Although He is in heaven literally, as having ascended, yet He is here.

A.P. Did the apostle Paul get an understanding of it when the Lord said to him, "why dost thou persecute me"?

J.T. Well, that is it; the Lord put the thing concisely; you can hardly conceive of the thing being put more concisely. He intended to convey it to Paul when He said, "why dost thou persecute me?" But it took a long time to open it up. And there has been ministry after ministry, and books after books have been used by God to open it up; and are still being used. And

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then the question is whether we are getting the benefit of them.

A.B.P. In Mark's gospel it says that the Lord was taken up into heaven, but then it says, further, that the disciples went everywhere preaching, the Lord working with them. That would bring in the dual position, would it not?

J.T. It shows how real the position is, in that sense; that although He is literally in heaven, as is said, that He sat on the right hand of God, and literally He is doing that, but yet He was with them, going with them as they preached the word. So that Mark would tell those of us who are serving, how we are to serve, that we are to go here and there, but not forgetting, nevertheless, that we are under orders. We are under the Lord. We are not to be free agents, but under the Lord's leading and guidance. But now, let us take, for instance, this book of Revelation; it speaks of the seven Spirits of God. Well now, let us ask ourselves what we know about the seven Spirits of God; what do we know about such movements as are implied in the number seven; seven instead of one. And yet, it is the Holy Spirit that is in mind.

A.B.P. The apostle Paul said that Mark was profitable to him for the ministry. He must have had some appreciation of the mystery to be profitable to the apostle, would you not say?

J.T. Just so. But what about the seven Spirits? What do we think about them? It is not simply a question now of what any one of us is doing, but what does the reference to the seven Spirits mean; the Spirit who is using us, in whose hand we are, is referred to as the seven Spirits of God.

A.N.W. Must that not be characteristic rather than personal?

J.T. You are asking; I would like the brethren to say something.

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A.B.P. It would not refer to seven entities, but rather to the fulness of the operations of the Spirit, that idea being set out in the number seven.

J.T. Well, I think you are nearly right; there must be something of that kind in it, but I am not so sure we are saying just the fact. The thought of the seven Spirits of God belongs to this book, peculiarly to this book.

J.T.Jr. Perfection is in mind, I suppose, in the seven, but in variety; and variety in the servants. If the Spirit is acting in one brother, He is acting in others also.

J.T. Yes, and in unity; unity and variety. I believe that is what is implied in the seven Spirits of God. You get no such statement of the other divine Persons.

J.T.Jr. Would headship come out in that?

J.T. It is the variety of things that is worked out by the blessed Spirit in His activities. It is a question of the use of numbers; of what runs through the Scriptures, and of what words we may use, and our knowledge of them. God has selected writing as a means to convey His mind, and if we are to get His mind, we have to follow up the words He uses, and see how they are set and what they mean. The Spirit of God is first mentioned as brooding over the face of the waters; as much as to imply that He has a great deal to say, but it will take time to say it; and He is taking time to say it, and He is still saying it; saying it tonight.

P.L. And would the brooding now suggest His feelings in the saints? Is it not the thought of a bird tenderly hovering over its young?

J.T. Quite so; the blessed Spirit would feel the difficulties there were as to what He would like to say, but He could not say it because of what had happened. Something had happened before the book of Genesis, and the Spirit of God is recognising that that had

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happened. And we may as well recognise that if there are impediments we must wait on God to open things up for us. And so the Spirit is seen brooding over the face of the waters. He has a great deal to say; indeed we are told that God, by the Spirit, garnished the heavens. Think of God doing that! Think of the Spirit of God garnishing the heavens!

C.A.M. Seven characteristics of the Spirit are contained in Isaiah 11:2: "The Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah".

J.T. These are characteristics of the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. While you do not get the mention of seven in relation to the Spirit coming in at Pentecost, yet the idea was there, I suppose. Immediately the Spirit came He would be unlimited; He would not be limited.

E.E.H. What is in the idea of the Spirit resting bodily on Christ when He was baptised?

J.T. Well now, you said resting bodily. He came on the Lord, you mean. It is a remarkable word and I have often thought of it. The allusion is, I think, to Genesis 8. It is a question of the characteristics of a dove, and how those characteristics were fitting to the Lord at that particular time.

A.B.P. Do we not have a great variety of names for the Spirit in our dispensation? There is the title Holy Spirit; and the Spirit of God; the Spirit of Jesus; the Spirit of Christ; the Spirit of truth; the Spirit of God's Son; the eternal Spirit; the Spirit of glory, and others which I cannot recall.

J.T. That is very good, I would think; very suggestive. The seven Spirits of God contemplate what the Spirit is in His great activities, bordering on what has been so much before the brethren of late; how the Spirit of God can be spoken of, especially in type. It is often said that we do not read of speaking

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to the Spirit or praying to the Spirit, and so forth; but usually we allude to the New Testament only, forgetting that the Old Testament has equal authority with the New. The Old Testament contemplates certain ones speaking to the Spirit, such as Rebecca, and I would just like to raise the question about the Spirit and the way He is spoken of as the seven Spirits of God. And although there are certain things not spoken of in the New Testament, they are stated in the Old, having the same authority in the Old as they have in the New. And I think that is of prime importance as to what we are dealing with, how varied the facts of the Old Testament are as to the Spirit.

W.W.M. In the end of Romans, where the apostle speaks of the revelation of the mystery, he says it has been made known by prophetic scriptures for the obedience of faith, to all the nations. That would be the light we have by the prophetic scriptures.

J.T. Just so; and so the word as to the assembly being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But this would not mean that the brethren should be limiting themselves to the New Testament. Of course, the New Testament has the first place. "Things new and old" suggests that the new come first; but we ought not to be limiting ourselves to the New Testament, for what the Old Testament says has the authority of Scripture, and if we make full allowance for that we will find ourselves with much more liberty than we now have in dealing with the truth as to the Spirit of God.

E.A.L. The Lord, in the end of Luke 16, says, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among the dead will they be persuaded". That would refer to Old Testament prophets, would it not?

J.T. It would.

P.L. Is it not the Old Testament scriptures -- the

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sacred letters -- that Paul refers to in writing to Timothy?

J.T. Yes; he had known the sacred letters from a child, "which are able to make thee wise unto salvation" -- his mother and grandmother knew too, and taught him.

G.H. You have referred to Numbers 21"Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it", and then what is recorded in type about the Spirit in Genesis 24. Would that be a part of the variety of the Spirit's service?

J.T. Quite so; the head of Abraham's house is a type of the Spirit and there are many other allusions to the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. And so, "Let there be light" begins to take form immediately in Scripture -- the light in Genesis. "Let there be light: and there was light".

J.T. Very good, it is not the searching for it. Let there be light. God says and there was light.

R.W.S. Revelation 5 speaks of the Lamb standing, as slain, having seven horns and seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God which are sent into all the earth. In connecting that with the suggestion about light, and eyes, I suppose, would mean that things are to be seen. We should see the truth.

J.T. Very good, so that if we talk about light, that there was light, and we might say that there is light, this principle runs right through the whole of Scripture. Furthermore, the word in 1 John is, "God is light". So that there is light; you can hardly get a stronger expression as to light than that God is light, and that in Him there is no darkness at all. So that if anyone stands up and says anything that is dark, then he is not in the light; he is not speaking of the light, although the light is available.

F.N.W. Some months ago you were stressing the importance of all the features of God coming down to us from the beginning. Should we, in the same way,

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treasure up every feature in which the Spirit Himself has been presented from the beginning?

J.T. Well, quite so; and the gifts are all involved in the presence of the Spirit here, because the gifts have all come down from Christ. I believe the Spirit brought all the gifts down with Him when He came down. The Lord Jesus sent Him down.

F.N.W. Everything from Genesis to Revelation is for us by the Spirit.

J.T. That is quite right, everything from Genesis to Revelation is a question of light. And God is that light Himself, and it involves the gifts that are given in the Spirit to unfold things to us.

R.H.S. Would it be right to link this thought of the seven Spirits with Zechariah? It says, "for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth", chapter 4: 10.

J.T. That is very good.

D.P. And would the thought of the seven Spirits indicate that there is adequate means to carry through every divine proposal?

J.T. Quite so, if you consider the creation, before man was created, think of the enormous variety that had to be brought into evidence to effect the creation. But now, when you come to the moral system, think of the things that have to be brought in to effect it, and the gifts are included in that. So that there is plenty of accommodation and material and implementation with God to carry on. Those who are serving the Lord have part in this. And so it is a question of being sensible of having part in it and of being equal to it.

J.A.P. Is that involved in the administration of the mystery that is going on now?

J.T. I would say so, because what we read in

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Revelation 21 -- in fact, from verse 9 to the end of the chapter -- is a question of the mystery of the assembly in its present activities administratively. All the unfoldings as to the breadth and the length and foundations, and other things which we cannot now undertake to name, are all representative of the wonderful variety in the administration of the Spirit of God in the assembly.

A.McD. Do you think that John's experience of being shown these great things is a principle in our day?

J.T. I would think so; it is a time of showing. Sometimes some of us get things directly from the Lord, but generally the truth is being opened up as we have quoted from Acts 17:3, it is "opening and laying down".

R.W.S. John was alert for impressions, whether it was what he heard, or what he saw. That would bear on us peculiarly today, would it not?

J.T. Quite so, and so in these scriptures John himself has to be rebuked for worshipping an angel. Twice he fell down and worshipped, showing that even the most spiritual of us may be found in this way, indulging in undue occupation with ministering brothers. The angel says, "do it not". "Do homage to God".

F.N.W. That would include the Spirit, would it not?

J.T. It would indeed; if we worship God we worship the Spirit. He has part in the Godhead, and thus it is very simple and very practical, but very true, that the blessed Spirit, as having part in the Godhead, is worshipped.

E.A.L. There is an expression in Ezekiel 3:24, "And the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet; and he spoke with me". And then, in verse 27, "And when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth,

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and thou shalt say unto them ..." I have particularly in mind the use of the word 'with' -- "He spoke with me", which would mean that there was conversation between them.

J.T. Quite so; very good.

A.R. In Revelation 21 it says that the Spirit carried the apostle away, as if the Spirit of God was serving the apostle.

J.T. Quite so. Just think of the gracious condescension of the Spirit, carrying a person.

A.R. I have wondered if, on the Lord's day morning, the Spirit helps us to get into heaven, for we are said to be raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies.

J.T. Showing the services He is ready to render to us at all times.

A.B.P. Is that what is in mind when it says: "we ... have both access by one Spirit to the Father", Ephesians 2:18?

J.T. Quite so. He is ready to do that. We have all access by the one Spirit to the Father, through Christ; that is the way it stands, that it is by the one Spirit.

A.R. In Revelation 21:9 it says, "Come here, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". But in verse 2 of the same chapter it refers to a bride adorned for her husband. She is not shown there. Why is there this difference?

J.T. Well, there were things to be shown, and there were things to be seen without being shown, so that both things are true. The Spirit of God is here, and He uses the gifts, and the gifts may be used to show us things. Paul was used to show the mystery; he opens up the mystery. He says to the Ephesians, "... ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ". Well, that is the idea; Paul would show them if they were ready to listen to him.

A.N.W. I wonder if it would be right to say that

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the city can be shown by the angel, but the bridal adorning for the husband needs keen spiritual sight and is hardly in the hands of an angel to show it.

J.T. The adorning is characteristic of the bride, it is 'as' a bride. It is a sort of characterisation of the assembly: "... as a bride adorned for her husband". It does not say that she is a bride adorned, it is just a characterisation of the assembly in that sense; that she is like that. But earlier, in chapter 19, it says, "his wife has made herself ready". Everything that she needs is there. And so you find, for instance with Rebecca, she had a person to look after her; the feminine sense is brought into it peculiarly. And so it is that with the assembly there is that which attends her, whatever is needed.

J.A.P. You said in your opening remarks that chapter 19 is current history, but the matter of adornment is future. Will you say more about that?

J.T. Well, what we have been saying is true. It is as a bride adorned. That is, the assembly is viewed thus in the new heavens and the new earth. It is a remarkable position; whereas in chapter 19 it says, "his wife has made herself ready". It is what is current down here now. Then, in verse 9, she is seen administratively here in relation to the world to come. That is the position. So that we have the whole matter; the assembly in the present time in her everyday experiences, but all leading up to her being ready, as the Lamb's wife. She is making herself ready. Then in chapter 21 she is seen in relation to the new heavens and the new earth; and then, in the latter part of that chapter, she is seen in relation to the world to come, of which we speak, as it says.

A.R. In Genesis 24 the servant gives Rebecca changes of raiment and jewels of silver and jewels of gold. Is that involved in the preparation that is going on now?

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J.T. Well, quite so; things that are adorning. The Spirit of God affords those things to her.

E.T.P. Why does the eternal thought as to the assembly precede the thought of administration in the millennium in chapter 21?

J.T. To show what she is in the new heavens and the new earth; that is what we are going on to; we are going on to a new heaven and a new earth, and she is seen there. But then, she comes down to the millennial earth, as we see in the latter part of the chapter.

P.L. Does that illustrate for us that we can alone come into the administrative sphere competently in relation to our portion and place in the eternal?

J.T. Well, I would say that; you come out from the eternal to fit into millennial conditions, but the millennium, as we speak of it, is not a perfect condition. It is not a perfect state of things, whereas the beginning of the chapter has a perfect state of things in mind. The new heaven and the new earth speak of a perfect state of things. But millennial conditions are just provisional.

A.N.W. There is the suggestion of what is bridal after the period in which, as a wife, she has made herself ready. The wife making herself ready would be before the millennial day, and "as a bride adorned for her husband" refers to what follows the millennium.

J.T. The millennial day is the one in which she is seen administratively, and I think that we all should have clearly in mind what she is administratively -- what is dealt with beginning with verse 9 of chapter 21 and running down to verse 5 of chapter 22. It is what she is millennially, but administratively.

J.T.Jr. It is the same vessel in each setting. In chapter 19 it is the wife; then, in chapter 21 it is the bride; then later in that chapter, the idea of the city. But it is the same vessel -- the assembly.

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J.T. Quite so; so that we can consider ourselves here tonight in New York, for example, on the principle of "the assembly of God which is in Corinth", which is a geographical idea. But then, when we come to the beginning of Revelation 21, it is not that at all, it is the new heavens and the new earth; we have not touched that, but at the same time 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation". That is all it says; it is abstract, you cannot put your finger on it, but there is such a thing as that.

J.T.Jr. What comes out in Revelation 19 really involves that the wife is out of heaven.

J.T. Well, that is the fact. That is where the mystery lies; that is what we often speak about, that the assembly is the nearest creature to Deity, but she is not Deity. She is the nearest creature, but she is not deified; she never will be. At the same time there is some mystery about her that you get with no other part of the creation.

R.H.S. Will you explain the distinction between the bride and the wife?

J.T. Well, there is the question of order, coming from the apostle Paul. He did not suffer a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. Well, we may as well accept that. But the sisters have part in sonship. There is no daughtership; it is sonship, and the sisters all come into that because we are told that in new creation there is neither male nor female. And that sets us at rest as to it, we may as well accept that. New creation involves everyone in the assembly, what is "in Christ". We are made new. It says of such, that they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God, they are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. These are wonderful statements but you cannot say a word against them, they are all true.

J.T.Jr. "Old things have passed away". That should

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be seen at the present time, that all that is connected with the old man is gone and does not enter into our service.

J.T. Quite so, all things have become new.

A.R. How would you work out Paul's statement: "we henceforth know no one according to flesh", 2 Corinthians 5:16?

J.T. Well, that is what we have been speaking about; what Paul said is in keeping with what we have been saying, that although we may say that the sisters must be silent, we have to learn that we know no one after the flesh; even though we have known Christ after the flesh, we henceforth know Him in that way no more. These are wonderful facts that we should accept.

P.L. Does not Paul follow the same order in 2 Corinthians 5 to which we have referred in the Revelation, starting with the abstract in relation to the eternal -- new creation -- then finishing up with what links on with the heavenly city? "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him". Is not that the heavenly city in the millennial day?

J.T. It is in view of that, that we might become that. So that 2 Corinthians particularly leads up to Ephesians.

P.L. And then comes out in the heavenly city.

J.T. Yes; and especially where we are dealing with assembly service now on the first day of the week. The Corinthian epistles are especially intended for that, to make us practical in the service.

J.A.P. Are we to understand that the epistle to the Ephesians is to be made good now and not to be relegated to the future?

J.T. Quite so, it is to be made good now, and so Paul was concerned that they might know his knowledge of things. If they did not have it all, he had it. Someone had it, and so it is here, and we can look into it and learn what it means.

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W.A.T. He had in mind that the knowledge of the administration might enlighten all; so that knowledge is intended to enlighten us?

J.T. Just so, to enlighten all with the knowledge of the mystery.

A.R. Did you have in mind to refer to the Spirit and the bride in chapter 22?

J.T. Well, that is to bring out that the bride is the nearest creature to divine Persons. She says the same thing as the Spirit; the Spirit says it, and she says it. They both say, "Come", and that would show how graciously God comes down to us, so as to bring us up to His level, if possible. It is not possible to make us divine. We are not divine, we are creatures; the assembly is a wonderful creature, there is no other family like it. Every family in the heavens and on the earth is named by the Father. The Spirit of God would say the assembly is the first family. It is the leading family of the whole creation.

A.B.P. Will you tell us why so much is said of adornment and clothing here in contrast to Genesis 2 where there is no thought of adornment?

J.T. There was no thought of adornment there, for they were naked and they were not ashamed.

A.B.P. But there is much said about it here.

J.T. It must be to meet what Genesis 2 speaks of, that they were not ashamed. But then, in chapter 3 sin comes in and they were ashamed. From that point on we have the idea of adornment, which is spiritual, and indicates what the divine thought is, that God has His thoughts, and these thoughts are worked out in the spiritual sense. And so, suggestively, there is the thought of covering. The first coverings were made according to God. In our place as sons of God there is no thought of female at all, we are all sons. And then, Paul said that he had espoused the Corinthians to one Man that he might present them a chaste virgin to Christ. That

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refers to all the saints at Corinth, they were all espoused to one Man and that one Man was Christ. So that the idea of male and female is shut out altogether, except in Christ and the assembly. The thought of male and female is seen properly in Christ and the assembly.

P.L. And is the clothing taken on as God's answer, in His ways, to the scene of shame and all that has come in?

J.T. Quite so; think of what it will be in eternity! There will be no idea of shame there at all; all is according to God! All things are of God.

J.T.Jr. John says in chapter 3 of his gospel, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", and in the same section He alludes to Jesus as coming from heaven, "from above". The origin of the bride also is heaven; is it not?

J.T. Quite so; we have to take account of that. Where does she come from? She is seen coming down from God out of heaven in Revelation. We cannot go beyond that. Someone may say that she comes from the earth before that, but that will not do; she properly comes down from God out of heaven.

A.McD. Will you say a word about her having the glory of God; is that part of the mystery?

J.T. Well, it is, because all belongs to God; glory must come from God. When we come to assembly service it is from glory to glory. And so the glory has a wonderful part in it. All must emanate from God, the glory must all belong to God, coming out through Christ.

P.L. The vessel that is for the satisfaction of Christ's love necessarily would have the glory of God. The Lord's own devotion to God's glory makes necessary that the vessel of His satisfaction should have that glory.

J.T. According to the Psalms every whit says glory. The Psalms are the great conservatory of what we may speak of in ministry. Glory all belongs to God, and so

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every whit says glory in the assembly; everything says glory there, and that must come from God.

R.W.S. The Spirit in Revelation 14 speaks comfortingly of those who have died in the Lord: "Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow with them", verse 13. But at the end of the book His speaking is much more blessed in that He speaks in consonance with the bride saying, "Come".

J.T. Quite so; in chapter 14 it is the Spirit, "Yea, saith the Spirit". It is not the seven Spirits of God there. It is the Spirit individually. It is a peculiar touch of the Spirit speaking personally and honouring those who have laboured.

P.L. And would you say it is His affinity with such; for who have laboured like He has?

J.T. Quite so; very good. And then when you come to the seven Spirits, think of the activities of service, how much is done. How much can be done, and is being done, from the very beginning, from the divine side!

S.W. In chapter 1: 4 the seven Spirits are before the throne. In chapter 5: 6 they are sent into all the earth.

J.T. Well, in the first chapter, "before the throne" is the great idea of authority; they are before the throne, which represents the authority of God in the book of Revelation. The seven Spirits of God would correspond with the throne, for they would assert, or stress, or dominate. The seven Spirits would be in line with God's thoughts and meet everything required in what God had to do.

J.T.Jr. That would have come out in Acts 15 where all that was said culminated in complete unity among the brethren.

J.T. Just so; and so you get a letter sent out saying that certain things seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to the brethren.

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J.T.Jr. Yes, "it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us ..."

J.T. That is what I was thinking, "it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us". So that there is perfect unity, and that shows the activity that is going on all the time, the activity of the Spirit.

F.N.W. Is it important, in that way, to notice that "the Spirit and the bride say, Come". It is not the Spirit speaking through the bride, but the Spirit and the bride.

J.T. It is to bring out the distinction of the bride, and yet she is not a divine person. She is a creature; but it shows how near she is to Deity, if I may use that expression.

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THE ASSEMBLY (2)

Genesis 1:26 - 30; Genesis 2:18 - 25; Genesis 5:1, 2

J.T. It was thought wise to begin these readings with the book of Revelation which, although not the last book of the Bible to be written, nevertheless contemplates breakdown in the dispensation. We read from this book at our previous inquiry. In keeping with that it was thought well to begin also with the earliest typical truth of the assembly, and hence the first chapter of the Bible is now before us. So that we dealt with the last chapters of the Bible first and the first chapters of the Bible are before us now. The first thing in mind is to get the divine mind as to the assembly according to what we have read in Genesis 1:26. The word 'man' embraces both male and female in this instance. So that this makes way for Christ and the assembly. Christ Himself is represented in the male or masculine side and Eve represents the female side. In the New Testament the assembly of God is composed of all saints who have the Holy Spirit. The thought is that we should differentiate between what differs in these passages -- first as regards the masculine side, and then how the female side is brought in, as we are told in the New Testament: "Adam was formed first, then Eve", 1 Timothy 2:13. So that the principle of subjection remains to be made clear as to her. "Adam was not deceived", we are told, but the woman was. So that there is clear indication as to the sexes and the place they have in the divine mind, and in the creation too, for we are beginning here with the creation. Our thought will be to consider the truth while man was in innocency, which is to be seen in these two chapters. The third chapter brings in sin. But we are now to deal with the truth as to man in innocency first so as to get the import of this wonderful type.

A.R. It says, "let them have dominion over the fish

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of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth", Genesis 1:26. Is the woman included in the word 'them'? Is it Adam and Eve?

J.T. Quite so, "let them have dominion".

A.R. So that she has part in headship?

J.T. Quite so, as we get in Ephesians 1:22, that God gave Christ "to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all".

A.R. We are very slow to take in the association of the assembly with Christ in headship.

J.T. And it is not clear to all of us now either.

J.T.Jr. This great matter of Genesis 1 flows out from God: "God said ...". and then, "Let us make man".

A.N.W. Verse 27 says, "in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". Does the word 'him' embody both man and woman and yet there is to be distinction between the male and the female?

J.T. Clearly so; the apostle in writing to Timothy points out that Adam was made first and that he was not deceived, but the woman was deceived. Then another thing that you will notice is the use of the plural in verse 26: "Let us make man in our image". That may be taken as suggesting the Godhead, or it may be taken as suggesting dignity or divine supremacy. Both are true.

R.W.S. Is the Adam over against Enosh, which alludes to the weak failing side of manhood?

J.T. Enosh was recognised as mortal man in weakness. Adam, of course, represents the man, entirely, as over against the woman. The way he is spoken of would indicate that the divine mind was to set out man in Adam first.

E.A.L. It is interesting that there are two elements

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in creation over which man is to have control but in which he does not move naturally. There is the sea and the fish in it, and the fowl in the heavens. Man is not naturally free in those elements.

J.T. But it will be so ultimately in Christ; He puts His right foot on the sea, and His left foot on the land, according to Revelation 10. Hence, when it is said that the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof, we have to regard that the whole globe, as we call it, is the Lord's.

A.R. So you get subjugation in this section: "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it".

J.T. That is how it reads, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth. And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". So that the principle of subjection comes in immediately. God would have everything in subjection to man.

S.W. Would you mind opening up the thought of image and likeness, and how much of it was lost by the fall, and if it is all being retained in Christ and the assembly?

J.T. Oh! it is all retained, and more, in Christ and the assembly. But here it is image and likeness. First it is, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". The 'our' is plural; that is, it is the Godhead, I would say. The word 'image' would point to representation of God, so we are told in 1 Corinthians 11 that man ought not to have his head covered in the service of God because he is God's image and glory -- that is, he is like God. Image may be a fuller and more general thought, whereas likeness is more accurate as to fact. It is what God is Himself. So that in Matthew 5 we are exhorted to be like our Father who is in the heavens. We are to

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be His sons and we are to be perfect as He is perfect. But at the same time there is the thought of image. It is complete representation of God in His creation. That was His intent in creating man.

A.N.W. So that, while it is said that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, you would hardly apply likeness to Him, because He is God.

Ques. Is the likeness spoken of here moral or spiritual, or is it both?

J.T. Physical at first, obviously, but then the moral side must come in, too. And so we see the great disaster that came in with the fall in the third chapter. The moral side, we might say, disappeared. At the same time the likeness and the image of God remains outwardly in the human features.

J.T.Jr. We do not get these thoughts in relation to the lower creation -- the fish and the cattle and other animals; the idea of likeness, or image, awaited the creation of man.

R.W.S. Would you say more as to physical likeness?

J.T. Well, it is clear that it must have been there: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". That must carry the idea of what is physical. You do not get it in the lower creatures; for instance, the cow does not give any suggestion of image or likeness of God. God reserved that for man, and that would go to the full extent of male and female; and so the thought is retained in chapter 5: 1 after sin came in, "in the likeness of God made he him". And then, as previously quoted from 1 Corinthians 11, we have the word that man is God's image and glory. So that the two thoughts remain.

A.McD. Did the apostle Paul bring that out in Romans? He speaks, in chapter 1: 23, of man changing the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of corruptible man and of birds and of quadrupeds and reptiles.

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J.T. Men had descended in their thoughts; they brought in the thought of the form of God -- likening it to the image and likeness of man and birds and reptiles.

A.R. Your reference to 1 Corinthians 11 is very important. "Man indeed ought not to have his head covered, being God's image and glory", verse 7.

J.T. It is a question there of the covering of the woman's head, whereas the man's head ought not to be covered, because he is made in the image of God and represents the glory of God. This is still true, to some extent at least.

F.H.L. With respect to physical likeness, how do you reconcile the fact that God is a Spirit?

J.T. Oh, well, likeness would be carried through to the physical appearance of man, I would think, because it states definitely here, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". There must surely be the thought of physical appearance in that. But at the same time, no one has seen God at any time. We are not to ignore that, and therefore the incarnation of Christ was in mind in all these things.

R.W.S. What you say seems to throw light on the living creatures. An outstanding feature was the face of a man, both in Ezekiel and in Revelation. Is it that the eyes, and the expression, and the hearing, and the like, all bear out what you allude to in the way of likeness of God?

J.T. Well, there are four living creatures in Revelation 4:6. It says, "in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, four living creatures, full of eyes, before and behind; and the first living creature like a lion, and the second living creature like a calf, and the third living creature having the face as of a man, and the fourth living creature like a flying eagle". That is to say, there are four different creatures, including man. Therefore we have to consider that the creation itself is in mind here, in Genesis 2. It says, in verse 19, "Jehovah

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Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought them to Man, to see what he would call them; and whatever Man called each living soul, that was its name. And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like". Adam was there but no woman. Of course, that particular feature is not in mind in Revelation 4; it is a question of the creation as a whole, and that is what Adam named here. God would bring out the intelligence that He placed in man. It says that He brought the animals to Adam to see what he would call them.

E.E.H. What is involved in that expression in Numbers 12:8: "The form of Jehovah doth he behold"?

J.T. Well, that is quite a question, and it involves more than we can undertake now. But I believe that such matters awaited the incarnation; the "form of Jehovah" must await the incoming of the Lord Jesus, really, the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

R.D.G. Would it be intelligent to connect that with the Lord's answer to Philip, "He that has seen me has seen the Father"?

J.T. That would be a question of moral character, I think. The reference in Numbers would preclude anything except the incarnation. Of course, the incarnation had taken place when John's gospel was written, and opens up all that. It is Christ in manhood.

W.A.T. Would likeness include feelings, love, and intelligence?

J.T. Yes; the moral side.

A.P. If we speak of the right hand of God, or His nostrils, or His eyes, we can only understand by our own features.

J.T. Well, the only way we can understand all these things is by the Spirit; He gives us the understanding.

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Therefore, if we speak of the nostrils of God, well, we have to think of what that would signify in God; and we have to bear in mind that God is a Spirit, if we think of God in the abstract. At the same time the incarnation makes all that simple, because God has become a Man.

A.P. Genesis 2:7 speaks of God breathing into the man.

J.T. Well, just so; and in Acts 2:2 the breathing was, we might say, the breathing of God; the lungs of God were involved, speaking reverently. The breathing was by God Himself.

J.T.Jr. So it is right to think of the plural, "Let us make ..." in the light of the New Testament where three divine Persons are mentioned. They all have their part in this matter of man.

J.T. And there can be no real understanding of such references as have been made as to the nostrils of God or of personal features, save as we see them set out in the Lord Jesus in incarnation. The incarnation answers all those questions.

F.H.L. Would the full thought of the assembly, as the nearest thing to Deity, be the expansion of this thought?

J.T. I would say that fully. You have all the features of manhood, including the female side, in mystery, in the assembly.

F.S.C. Man is comprised of spirit, soul and body.

J.T. Quite so; the Lord referred to His spirit, soul and body. And, of course, we refer to all these things reverentially, in a holy way, but at the same time the idea relates to the incarnation and is most essential to the truth.

A.R. It says, in John 20:22, that the Lord breathed into the disciples and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit". Would that be like Genesis 2:7? "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into

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his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul".

J.T. It is the same kind of thing, only it is Christ breathing into His disciples. He said, "whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them". It was to bring out the kind of thing you may expect in manhood -- forgiveness and retention of sins.

A.R. Does the breath which Jehovah breathed into man involve the Spirit?

J.T. No; I do not think it does. It is just the spirit that man was given. "Man became a living soul". Every man has a spirit. It is not the Holy Spirit, but a spirit. He has spirit, soul and body. These are the component parts of a man. And Christ has those, too.

A.B.P. When Moses was slow to speak, Jehovah asked him, "Who gave man a mouth?" Does that suggest that He had designed a specific function for man to perform with each part of his body?

J.T. Quite so; and God's mouth is alluded to. But as we were saying, these things were all filled out fully in the incarnation -- in Christ becoming man.

J.H.E. Romans 5:14 refers to Adam being the figure of Him that is to come. Christ would be the fulness of that?

J.T. That is true. And it is a great comfort, and full of light for our souls, that the Lord Jesus is God. "He is the true God and eternal life", 1 John 5:20. In John 17:3 the Father is called the only true God, so that we have to discriminate and be sure that we know what we are speaking of when quoting Scripture.

R.W.S. There are a number of negatives in Genesis 2. It says, "Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth", verse 5; and then, in the same verse, "there was no man to till the ground", and in verse 20, "he found no help-mate, his like". Do these negatives suggest that we have to wait for the filling out of things?

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J.T. Very good; I would say that. The negatives in that chapter are important and should be noticed. There is something lacking. But all is now completed in Christ and the assembly.

A.N.W. Is that involved in the expression, "in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily", Colossians 2:9?

J.T. In chapter 1 it really reads, "in him all the fulness ... was pleased to dwell", verse 19. In chapter 2 it is "the fulness of the Godhead".

A.N.W. I was struck with the word in chapter 2: "For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily; and ye are complete in him". The first chapter seems to have in mind His days here on earth. But I do not want to divert; it was simply the thought of 'bodily'; that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells there.

J.T. Yes; that is chapter 2. It is right to be clear about these things, because they lie at the foundation of the truth.

J.A.P. Is it right to say that in the gospels the assembly was not in evidence? It was just a question of the Man -- Christ?

J.T. Well, it is a bit remarkable that, in Matthew, a certain man would make a wedding for his son. It was a wedding, but the wife is not mentioned. And so in John 3:29: "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", but the bride is not in evidence.

J.A.P. Does that correspond with this chapter down to verse 22 where Eve is formed? Does that section cover the gospels?

J.T. We might say she was made, according to chapter 1: 26, included in Man; and also, in chapter 5, it says, "In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". But I may not have understood your thought.

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J.A.P. You mean that there is mystery in all this?

J.T. Well, there is, because we have to wait for the detail till the second chapter. And in it we have added to the first chapter the idea of Jehovah. God is supreme in the first chapter because there is no reference to Jehovah; in the second chapter the name Jehovah is added -- Jehovah Elohim. It is to bring out the relation He had come into -- to stand in relation to man.

W.W.M. Reference has been made to Colossians, that all the fulness was pleased to dwell in Christ, and then we read in 1 Corinthians 11 that the woman was of the man, so that we have to understand that the death of Christ was necessary in order that the woman should be taken from the man. Is that what we have in the deep sleep of Adam?

J.T. I would say that; taking the woman out of the man required Christ going into death. So that, "Except the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, it abides alone". And this was said about Adam. It was not good for him to abide alone. But then, the passage continues, "but if it die, it bears much fruit", and the fruit, of course, is the assembly.

J.T.Jr. I suppose the woman was present, in a certain sense, in the disciples when the Lord was here. There is a kind of overlapping, would you say, in the sense that the thing was there, really, like the first reference we have here? He made them male and female. The thought was there, was it not?

J.T. Well, we must add something, you know, to bring that out fully. There was what was there in Christ by Himself, because the assembly was not there, except according to what was in His mind. But the Spirit coming to earth, consequent upon Christ having gone up to heaven, we have the means of the woman being formed; so I would not say the assembly existed in any sense, except in mind, until Christ went up to heaven, and then after ten days the Spirit came down to earth.

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So that Acts 2 brings out the great fact of the assembly. The Lord added to it, we are told, such as should be saved.

C.A.M. In that connection we sometimes look at the feminine reference, for instance, in John 4, and the remarkable feminine personality in John 20, as suggestive of what was to be for the heart of Christ, but would you say it was not yet formed until the Spirit came?

J.T. Just so; the woman in John 4 could hardly be said to be anything more than the Samaritan woman until she began to show qualities. In the Lord's conversation with her she did not show much intelligence, but afterwards, as we see in Mary Magdalene, the form began to show itself, and so she is used. The first woman is not used. She left her water-pot. She brought it and left it. But in John 20, Mary Magdalene was used; the Lord took her on and made a useful vessel of her and sent a message through her. The woman of Samaria received no message; she did something of herself.

C.A.M. That is very interesting. It is all a very mysterious and wonderful subject, is it not?

J.T. It is indeed, but John helps us in the women that are spoken of (there are seven or more) and they are undoubtedly intended to represent something of the assembly right up to Mary Magdalene in chapter 20. Something of the assembly was in mind, and the Lord knew it, of course, and treated them accordingly.

J.T.Jr. Would that be seen as in the pearl? The thing was there although it was not filled out as yet.

J.T. Well, the pearl was there, according to Matthew, but in John it is a question of women through whom the thing comes out; the women bring out the thing that was in the Lord's mind. The consummation is seen in Mary Magdalene whom He uses.

F.N.W. Is it not remarkable that it says that Christ loved the assembly and has delivered Himself up for it?

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J.T. Quite so; it was in His mind. He had it in His mind.

T.E.H. What is suggested in the woman saying, "Sir, I see that thou art a prophet"? Is there not some formation behind that remark?

J.T. Well, I think she was beginning to see things, and she says, "Sir", to Him, showing she was beginning to respect Him. And then she said that He had told her all things that she had ever done. That is, her conscience was reached. We cannot say very much, but there was something there.

A.R. Do you think the need for the woman was in Adam's mind when he gave names to all the cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field? It says, "but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like".

J.T. He saw nothing of the woman before him. We have to wait for the latter part of the chapter. In relation to the woman he says, "This time ..." I would not say he had any concrete thought of her before that.

A.R. We have been saying that the Lord must have had the church in His mind when He was here, and I wondered if that entered into the type.

J.T. Adam was told to name the creatures and he did it. It was to bring out his intelligence. But then, he was asleep while the woman was being formed; let us see what the passage says: "And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh in its stead. And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman".

A.I. Have you in mind that Jehovah saw the lack in relation to Adam, and He provided for it?

J.T. He did, but He had not done it as yet. Apparently Adam had named every creature that was there, but the woman was not there. There must have been

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something in his mind as to what would be suitable to him, for it says, "as for Adam, he found no help-mate, his like".

A.N.W. It was Jehovah who said that it was not good that man should be alone. He had made all the creatures, and Adam was still alone, but it was not good. That was in the divine mind.

J.T. That is the way to look at it.

F.H.L. So that purpose is linked on with Ephesians 5, is it not? The mystery is referred to there; it is a great mystery, but Paul says, I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly.

J.T.Jr. The hymn says, 'Oh God, the thought was thine, Thine only could it be' (Hymn 92). This thought originated with God.

R.W.S. Does the woman in Luke 15, who was sweeping diligently to find the lost drachma, suggest the recovery of the thought of the assembly as it is seen in Ephesians?

J.T. She would be typical of the Spirit, I would say. There is the sweeping in the house.

R.W.S. That is why I asked. In Genesis 1 it is, "Let us make man". All three divine Persons would be in that, and they are all brought into the parable in Luke 15.

J.T. First we have the suggestion of the Lord Himself, leaving the ninety and nine in the wilderness and going after the sheep that was lost; and then we have the woman, suggesting the Spirit, sweeping the house until she finds the lost piece of silver; and then the Father receiving the son that had been lost.

R.W.S. I think it is beautiful that we can move on to that line of things. We are in the full light of what divine Persons are doing, but we are getting help to move into the matter. We are finding something, as it were, and rejoicing with divine Persons.

J.T. Just so, there is so much to be found that is

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in the Scriptures that we have not seen as yet. And I believe that Luke's ministry helps to bring that out. Of course, all the gospels are to bring it out, but especially Luke, as we are speaking of it now. The woman swept the house until she found the lost piece of silver, and then she called certain to rejoice with her, "for I have found the drachma which I had lost".

A.N.W. Do we see the idea of progression in creation, formation, and building? These processes are referred to in our scripture. Is there progression in them?

J.T. I think there is distinct progression in the word 'built'. This is the first mention of the word.

A.I. Would you help as to verse 20 of chapter 2, which says that Adam found no help-mate, his like?

J.T. In the whole creation there was not any creature like himself, until the woman was built. He was the only one, and there was no one like himself -- no counterpart for him.

C.A.M. It says, "Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man". Is that not a remarkable expression? Does it not help us to understand a little better when speaking about the deep things of God, in this manner?

J.T. It must be the death of Christ that is in mind. It is very touching for that reason, but of course we have to wait for that, until the New Testament.

C.A.M. Yes; would you think that view of the death of Christ is suggested also in Psalm 139? It refers to the lower parts of the earth and the wonderful formation of things. The portion in mind reads, "I will praise thee, for I am fearfully, wonderfully made. Marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My bones were not hidden from thee when I was made in secret, curiously wrought in the lower parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my unformed substance, and in thy book all my members were

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written; during many days were they fashioned, when as yet there was none of them".

J.T. Many persons here may hardly know the meaning of that Psalm. It is well worth knowing; there is the idea of formation of things. It would allude to what is formed in persons and ultimately would have the assembly in mind as a formation.

R.W.S. Would the period of aloneness which Adam had, which, apparently, was only part of a day, represent the period of the Lord's life in His ministry here before the Spirit came?

J.T. Well, it may.

F.S.C. I have been thinking lately of that word which has been quoted from Psalm 139"... fearfully, wonderfully made". I would like help on it.

J.T. It all brings out the wonderfulness of Scripture. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16. The Psalms afford significance of that more than any other section of the Bible.

A.A.T. I notice that the word 'Man' in Genesis 2 and 3 (New Translation) is spelled with a capital, and that there is a footnote, Ish. The word 'woman' generally occurs without a capital. What is the difference?

J.T. There are two words, Ish and Ishshah. Ishshah is the outcome of Ish; Ish is the Man, the masculine. Ishshah is what is taken out of Man, and therefore the word 'woman' is written with a small 'w'. The capital M is to bring out the dignity of the man at first. So that we are speaking of very great things, and perhaps we are not speaking of them as they should be spoken about, but there is one thing that we ought not to overlook in what is being said, and that is that we are dealing with mystery. We must be mysterious to deal

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with it; we must have the Spirit to deal with the idea of mystery. And we ourselves as christians are part of the mystery.

A.B.P. It says in Ephesians, in regard to the assembly, that she is the fulness of him that fills all in all. Would there be a link between that expression and this word "a help-mate, his like" -- the idea of counterpart?

J.T. Yes; but not with the "all in all". Divine Persons are in mind in that expression. It is a divine Person, whereas here we are dealing with a man.

A.B.P. I had the idea that the woman here, as Adam's counterpart, is typical of the assembly's place as the body of Christ and His fulness as she is spoken of in Ephesians 1:22, 23.

J.T. "The fulness of him that filleth all in all". That is, she is the fulness of a divine Person. She is not a divine Person, but she is the fulness, showing the wonderfulness of the assembly. No other creature had such a place as she has, but the idea of counterpart would apply literally to Adam and Eve. The assembly cannot be a divine Person, she is a creature, although having that wonderful place as His fulness. It is really mystery and ought to be dealt with as such, because we might allow ourselves to slip into the idea that the assembly has some part in Deity, which is not so.

J.H.E. The error that Satan introduced at the beginning was, Ye shall be as gods.

A.T.D. You referred earlier to the words, "Let them have dominion". Did you say that the assembly participates in headship?

J.T. She does, in authority; that will be seen in the millennium. She will be in the heavens, above the earth -- not on the earth. She will have part in the headship and in the reigning, too, because we are to reign with Christ. If we suffer with Him we shall also reign with Him. But in all these things we must be

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careful to guard against the idea of the assembly having any part in Deity. She has part in the headship, according to that remarkable passage in the first chapter of the Ephesians.

T.N.W. Christ is given to be Head over all things.

J.T. Quite so, and the assembly's place with Him is very near to Deity, but it is not Deity.

C.A.M. I was struck with the allusion to Ephesians in the earlier part of the meeting. The verse reads, "... and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly". That word 'to' seems to be a very remarkable word, does it not?

J.T. It is very little understood, I believe, and it is an opportunity for us to know it now, because it is to be understood. We have part in it. Nevertheless we have no part in Deity.

Rem. The bride is in proximity to the husband in Revelation 21.

J.T. Well, it is the place she has in divine counsels. God has a right to do what He will, but we are not gods; we are creatures.

E.T.P. The Lord uses the word 'build' in Matthew 16 in relation to the assembly. Does that cover the whole of this dispensation?

J.T. Well it does, and fills out what we are saying, that He is given to be Head over all things to the assembly.

S.W. Why is it that after the transgression man calls his wife Eve? When Jehovah Elohim presents her to him, he says, "She shall be called Woman", but after the transgression he calls her Eve, meaning the mother of all living.

J.T. Well, it is prophetic ministry. The spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. The spirit of prophecy is seen very early, and it comes into this chapter in what you allude to. The "mother of all living" is the woman; the Lord is her Seed. And when

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you come down to the facts. Mary, the Lord's mother, must be brought into it.

A.R. The seed of the woman shall bruise the serpent's head.

J.T. That is stated here, in chapter 3.

A.R. That has Christ in mind, has it not?

J.T. Quite so; the bruising of the head is by Christ, and Satan had part in bruising of His heel, which, we understand, relates to His death; Satan had part in that.

A.R. So you referred to the first man that was born. Eve said she had received a man from the Lord.

T.E.H. It is very suggestive that the spirit of prophecy should come in so early. It also occurred early in the present dispensation to help us in our assembly life.

J.T. Quite so; there were prophets and teachers at Antioch, and the Spirit had part in that. He said, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them", Acts 13:2. The Spirit had part in all that.

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THE ASSEMBLY (3)

Genesis 22:20 - 24; Genesis 24:1 - 33, 50 - 67

J.T. Attention should be called to the importance of Scripture, and that the Old Testament has the same relative value as the New Testament; and so also the typical teaching of the Old Testament has its own value, and has the authority of Scripture. I am afraid that there is a danger in certain quarters of persons assuming that the New Testament has greater value than the Old. When the Lord was here He quoted from the Scriptures. In the 10th of John He quoted a scripture, saying as to it, "and the scripture cannot be broken", verse 35. And so I think it is well to warn the brethren, and we all should be warned, as to the importance of Scripture. We have had it before us that "every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. The section now before us is one of the most important sections in the Old Testament as containing typical teaching about the Spirit of God and about the assembly. We must be on our guard not to allow ourselves to slip into error by refusing what is presented in Scripture as typical teaching. A letter was received from a brother in Croydon this very day calling attention to John 7:37, which I will read: "In the last, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Attention is called to the Scripture: "As the scripture has said". Now this particular scripture can hardly be found, literally, but the Lord says that it is there, and He quotes thus "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living waters". The chronicler of the gospel by John then records:

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"But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified", verse 39. So the Lord quoted something there as Scripture that cannot be determined as such, literally, but still the meaning is there; the Lord means it to be quoted as Scripture; in effect it was Scripture; although as already said we cannot get the literal words in Scripture. Therefore we ought to be on our guard that we may not find ourselves in error as to the use of the Scriptures, but go by the usage that the Lord and the apostles have made of them.

C.A.M. You were referring to the verse, "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive". As you were speaking one was impressed with the fact that the Lord, even though His own words were being expressed at the moment, referred to the Old Testament scripture in order to speak about the Spirit, which was really looked at anticipatively in the Old Testament, was it not?

J.T. Yes, quite; but in the passage with which we are dealing in John 7 the writer of the gospel explains what is said: "But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive". That is, the writer, the narrator of the gospel of John, adds to what the Lord said.

J.T.Jr. "As the scripture has said", would need to be taken into consideration, in regard to every scripture, as to what it is saying, what the scripture itself is saying. And as we are reading out tonight in Genesis 24, it is a question of what that scripture is saying.

J.T. So that you have the Old Testament, for instance, in Hebrews 3:7: "... as says the Holy Spirit". It is not, as said, but "as says".

E.A.L. Genesis 24 seems to have considerable double emphasis. For example: "Put thy hand, I pray thee, under my thigh, and I will make thee swear by Jehovah",

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verses 2, 3. Later in the chapter other things are emphasised by repetition. Do you think that is notable?

J.T. Very good, so as to emphasise what the chapter contains, because it is so important, I would think, as a type of Christ and the assembly; and not only Christ and the assembly, but the Spirit of God too; it is a type of the Spirit of God Himself.

E.T.M. Do you think that it is significant to see how the Spirit and the assembly are closely related, both in Genesis and Revelation?

J.T. Quite so; so that the Lord, for instance, states certain things to each of the assemblies, and the Lord's own words are implied, but then there are other words added.

A.R. In the epistle to the Galatians Paul says, "But what says the scripture? Cast out the maid servant and her son" (chapter 4: 30), but in Genesis 21 it is what Sarah says. Although spoken by Sarah, the apostle says, "what says the scripture?"

J.T. Showing that God is honouring His children, quoting what they say, and that is found in the epistle to the Hebrews particularly, especially in the first chapter.

A.B.P. There is a striking passage in 1 Corinthians that illustrates how the apostle Paul regarded the Old Testament: "In the law ... it is written, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that is treading out corn. Is God occupied about the oxen, or does he say it altogether for our sakes? For for our sakes it has been written", 1 Corinthians 9:9, 10. The apostle's use of Scripture confirms what you are saying.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. And so Peter says, "the scope of no prophecy of scripture is had from its own particular interpretation, ... but holy men of God spake under the power of the Holy Spirit", 2 Peter 1:20, 21.

J.T. And you mean that is Old Testament prophecy?

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A.N.W. Well, it clearly is so.

S.W. What had you in mind in reading the verses in chapter 22? After Isaac had been offered up Rebecca comes into view as a type of the assembly?

J.T. It is to bring out that she is there. The Spirit of God is placing her there because she is about to be spoken of as the bride that is sought out for Isaac. And so the Spirit of God mentions her in the verses read in chapter 22.

S.W. Rebecca did not come into view until after Isaac had been offered up. I thought that Isaac being offered up typified Christ having died, and indeed risen, because Abraham is recorded as coming back with the servants from the mount, but Isaac is not so mentioned.

J.T. Quite so; and the verse read says, "And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she also has borne sons to thy brother Nahor: Uz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram, and Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel" -- and now there is a bracket here: "(And Bethuel begot Rebecca.)" It is clearly to identify the one who is to be the bride of Isaac.

E.A.L. And then Rebecca, in chapter 24: 24, said to the servant, "I am the daughter of Bethuel, the son of Milcah, whom she bore to Nahor". She brings in all that of herself.

J.T. Showing that she was clearly intelligent as to her genealogy and that she was a genuine person, fit to be the bride of Isaac.

R.W.S. In a previous reading, in the great type which we have in Eve, sin had not come in, but here sin had come in, but the sisterhood seems to be true and of a wholly right seed. I wondered if these conditions rightly preceded the introduction of the Spirit and all the wealth of this wonderful chapter.

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J.T. Well, sin having come in, God brought in the idea of sacrifice, the sin-offering, as He calls it, in speaking with Cain. It lay at the door; redemption had been accomplished in principle, so that God could go on with His work. And hence Rebecca is a suitable person to be the bride of Isaac. God was not baffled at the incoming of sin; He immediately made provision for it so that He should go on with His work. Therefore the counsels of God must go forward.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that certain things had occurred, in view of Rebecca's coming on to the scene? Rebecca and the generations before her are not referred to by the Spirit in this way until after the sacrifice of Isaac is brought in.

J.T. But then the idea of sacrifice came out very early; it came out in Genesis 3.

C.A.M. Yes; but would you say that the whole matter of the sacrifice really becomes increased so that a beautiful aspect of it is seen in chapter 22?

J.T. So that God has it in mind and Rebecca is brought in on the ground that she is suitable for Isaac.

F.S.C. It says in Hebrews 11:18: "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". This chapter makes way for that.

A.R. Are counsels in mind in that the first suggestion about the bride comes from Abraham, who may be said to represent God? Are the purposes of God in mind?

J.T. It is not Abraham that is particularly in mind, it is Rebecca; she is fit to fill out the divine purpose. Rebecca is in mind here, it is not simply Abraham's seed. She was related to Abraham, of course, but that is not the point, exactly.

A.R. The suggestion about getting a wife for Isaac comes first from Abraham. I wondered if that suggested the idea of fulfilment of purpose and counsel.

J.T. But Abraham did not prescribe who the wife was to be, he waited for her to appear. She comes out

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immediately, however, as Abraham's servant speaks to her.

A.N.W. Does not verse 15 confirm what you say? The Holy Spirit guides the writer to say almost the same words as are in chapter 22: "behold, Rebecca came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother"; she is precisely the one.

J.T. Quite so.

T.N.W. Is there a possible confirmation in verse 27? The servant says, "I being in the way, Jehovah has led me to the house of my master's brethren". It is not exactly to Rebecca herself.

J.T. He was led to the brethren of Abraham; that was through Jehovah's guidance.

J.T.Jr. The way Jehovah is brought into this is very impressive. The servant speaks of that immediately. Then, in verse 51, Laban and Bethuel say, "... as Jehovah has said". Even Laban recognises that and says that Jehovah had said that Rebecca was to be the wife of Isaac: "Behold, Rebecca is before thee: take her, and go away; and let her be wife of thy master's son, as Jehovah has said". It is a very impressive thought; and it shows that God was active in the matter.

J.T. Yes, and it is not simply that she is a relative of Abraham, but she is Rebecca. She is the one that is fitted for Isaac.

S.W. In that way, though we are chosen sovereignly, yet we are selected?

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. The meaning of Rebecca's name is given as 'captivating', according to the note. She herself was captivating.

J.T. Showing that she was personally attractive. That will come out later.

F.H.L. Not only is wisdom and intelligence moving

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but love is behind this matter, because, as we know, the first mention of love is in connection with Abraham and Isaac, and now the second mention is in connection with Isaac and Rebecca.

J.T. Quite so; Isaac and Rebecca.

R.W.S. Does Rebecca typically have the graces of the Spirit, even as she is approached by the servant? Allusion is made in the chapter to two wells, and to camels, and the servant, which would allude in some way to the Spirit, but I wondered if she was really marked by the Spirit before the servant and the camels came.

J.T. Another well is alluded to in chapter 24. "And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country. And Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields toward the beginning of evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming. And Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac", and then we have the servant saying, "That is my master!" But he had been coming from the well Beer-lahai-roi. So that it is a scene of refreshing, a scene of water. And no doubt what is said in John 7:38 would indicate that the scripture points to it. "As the scripture has said" would link on with this very passage.

R.W.S. Is there then greater wealth connected with the Spirit in Rebecca as a type of the assembly, than in the other types of the assembly in the Old Testament? Is the Spirit seen in a more extended way in relation to her than in the other types?

J.T. Yes, the types are very strikingly illustrated in this chapter.

A.I. Is the death of Sarah in view of making way for Rebecca?

J.T. In a certain sense that is true. You get Sarah's death in chapter 23. Abraham made a point of getting a burying-place for her.

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J.H.E. Apart from the servant's work there would be no bride; today, through the Spirit's work the bride is formed.

J.T. Very good. The bride exists because of the Spirit having effected her.

J.H.E. I was thinking of that verse you quoted from John, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". Look at the water that Rebecca was able to furnish, not only for the servant but for the camels also!

J.T. What a lot of it she furnished! There were ten camels to be watered.

F.H.L. Giving a drink to ten camels was almost a miracle for a young woman, and yet that is a part of the test which the servant suggested in verse 14.

J.T. She does not hesitate; she said she would give drink to the camels also. The servant asked her only for a sip of water at first but she was ready to draw water for the camels also.

A.B.P. Would the attractiveness of Rebecca, which the servant observed and wondered at, be typical of the handiwork of the Lord Himself which was seen in the one hundred and twenty when the Spirit came down at Pentecost? Would that be a dispensational application?

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. In connection with John 7, would the spontaneity with which she acted show that it operated from the inwards; not doing merely what she is told, but working in a spontaneous way? Would that connect with John 7:38: "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"?

J.T. Yes; you are struck with the agility with which she moves, and draws out the wonderment of the servant; he wondered at her. That is another thing that we might as well take notice of, because the servant is a type of the Spirit, and he marvelled at Rebecca.

A.R. The first thing she does is to give the servant

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a drink of water. He says, "Let me, I pray thee, sip a little water out of thy pitcher. And she said, Drink my lord! And she hasted and let down her pitcher on her hand, and gave him to drink". That is, he gets refreshed first.

J.T. Quite so.

J.H.E. Would this be the principle of excess? He asks for a drink, and she says, "I will draw water for thy camels also".

J.T. Consider the capacity of a camel for drinking water. You marvel at what happened here.

A.A.T. There seem to be several types of the Spirit in the chapter -- the servant, the camels, and the well, and probably more.

J.T. There are two wells; and the camels are a type also, because of the carrying power involved. They were to carry Rebecca to Isaac.

J.T.Jr. That is an interesting reference to the wells, because there is a well at the end of the chapter as you pointed out, and in the early part reference is made to the well of water. The servant says, "Behold, I stand here by the well of water". And then Isaac is seen as coming from the well Beer-lahai-roi. The Spirit being alluded to in these connections shows the great variety there is in regard to Him -- how He presents Himself.

J.T. And it is a question whether we are awake to it. I was alluding to a letter received today, which illustrates how the brethren are awaking to this great fact of the Spirit as a feature of the last days.

G.A.L. What would you say about the passage in Jeremiah 2:13 where Jehovah refers to Himself as the fountain of living waters? "For my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, to hew them out cisterns, broken cisterns that hold no water".

J.T. The Lord in John 7:38 in saying, "as the scripture has said", would, doubtless, have in His mind

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these very passages in which the Spirit is seen in the figure of fountains and wells and rivers. He uses the very word, "Out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

J.T.Jr. It is remarkable that this city of Nahor in verse 10 is connected with that. The footnote says, 'Syria of the two rivers'.

J.T. Very remarkable. They would be, I suppose, the Tigris and Euphrates.

A.I. The servant here speaks of standing by the well; it is mentioned several times. Is there any significant difference in Moses sitting by the well in Exodus 2:15?

J.T. I believe the stress is on standing as in chapter 18: 2, as the note says.

C.A.M. You were speaking of the fact that the servant wondered at Rebecca in verse 21. Is not that a touch of the feelings of the Holy Spirit, for which we are really dependent upon the Old Testament?

J.T. The wonders of the Old Testament are reflected in the New, although it is quite right to say New and Old. The New comes first.

C.A.M. So that having the Holy Spirit before us as in the New Testament, we are rightly dependent upon the Old to fill in touches of feeling and love with regard to such a divine Person.

J.T. And so with respect to the title Jehovah Elohim; in chapter 2 of this book we have this double name. In chapter 1 it is just God -- or Elohim. But then we have the Spirit there immediately, brooding over the face of the waters.

V.C.L. It says in verse 19, "When she had given him enough to drink", and then, concerning the camels, it was "until they have drunk enough". Would that indicate that we should seek to satisfy the Spirit?

J.T. Well, it is the sort of thing that ought to belong to the assembly. If there is anything being done in

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the way of liberality or entertaining, then it is done well -- plenty of it. That is, we are not niggardly in what we are doing, we are acting graciously and liberally with the brethren.

J.T.Jr. So she fully meets the requirements that are in the servant's mind. The servant had stated in his prayer what he would say, and what he would expect the damsel to say; it is a remarkable reference to conversation. The matter of conversation should help us in regard to what we have been considering in this great subject of the Spirit.

J.T. The Spirit of God is here viewed in type as holding a conversation with the assembly; that is to say, the servant converses with Rebecca.

A.R. It says in verse 21, "And the man was astonished at her, remaining silent", as if he was giving her all the opportunity he could.

J.T. Quite so; you marvel at it, especially as bringing in the thought of whom he represents in the type.

J.A.P. Would you think that Paul's remarks as to the liberality of the Macedonian brethren bring out this feature of the assembly? In 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 and also in Philippians 4 he refers to this and that they had ministered twice to him, as if he wondered at their giving which was out of their "deep poverty".

J.T. Very good.

R.W.S. Among the questions that the man asked Rebecca in verse 23 is the query: "Is there room ... to lodge?" And she answered, "There is straw, and also much provender with us; also room to lodge". Then, in verse 31, Laban said, "I have prepared the house, and room for the camels". Is it a question now of how much room we are going to make?

J.T. She has no hesitation in answering. The servant says, "Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee. Is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge? And she said to him, I am the daughter of

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Bethuel the son of Milcah, whom she bore to Nahor. And she said to him. There is straw, and also much provender with us; also room to lodge". There is plenty of everything. It is an illustration really of what the assembly should be.

J.A.P. Is there a link between what you have just said and Acts 16:15, where it is said of Lydia, "And when she had been baptised and her house, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there. And she constrained us"?

J.T. "Come into my house and abide there"; quite so. And then later, in verse 40, it says, "And having gone out of the prison, they came to Lydia". She was a liberal woman; she was an assembly woman.

J.A.P. I was wondering if these features which are seen in this woman in Genesis 24 come out in Philippi. And then, the way the jailor acted after his conversion! Does it not fill out what we get in this chapter?

J.T. Yes; the jailor laid the table for them.

A.N.W. And does not verse 22 of our chapter show how the Spirit affords compensation? "And it came to pass when the camels had drunk enough, that the man took a gold ring, of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands, ten shekels weight of gold ..."

J.T. That is, he did not belittle the camels, any more than he would himself. He waited until they had enough.

A.N.W. Is it right to link the camels with the ministry? I was thinking of that word in Ephesians 4:13: "... until we all arrive".

J.T. "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ".

A.N.W. I thought there might possibly be a link

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between this thought of the camels and the Spirit's part in the ministry.

J.T. Yes, the camels are great carriers as we have said.

A.N.W. And does not verse 10 help us, if we need further help, to identify this wonderful unnamed person with the Spirit? "Now all the treasure of his master was under his hand". Is that not a close link with 1 Corinthians 12:11, which says, "all these things operates the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each in particular according as he pleases"?

J.T. Yes; showing that it is the Holy Spirit that is down here looking after things for us. He is down here by us looking after things for us. It is really the idea of the Comforter, one who manages our affairs for us.

W.W.M. It says in verse 22, "And it came to pass when the camels had drunk enough, that the man took a gold ring, of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands, ten shekels weight of gold, and said, Whose daughter art thou?" Then in verse 28, "And the maiden ran and told these things to her mother's house. And Rebecca had a brother, named Laban: and Laban ran out to the man, to the well. And it came to pass when he saw the ring and the bracelets on his sister's hand, and when he heard the words of Rebecca his sister, saying, Thus spoke the man to me ..." I was thinking that this is like the adornment which the Spirit would effect in the saints. Would you think so?

J.T. The whole scene is marked by enrichment; you are impressed with Abraham and his patriarchal age; indeed, you are impressed with the richness of the whole position as seen in the households, but especially in Abraham. And there is another thing that was already alluded to: "And he arose and went to Aram-naharaim, to the city of Nahor". That is said to be 'Syria of the two rivers'. The idea of rivers and wells

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is there. The great enrichment of the place is striking. The assembly is set in that place of spiritual wealth.

E.A.L. Do you think that Abraham is really marked by confidence in the servant? He gives no instruction in detail; the servant works out the whole plan of discovery of Rebecca and confirmation of her.

J.T. Quite so; everything was under his hand; all his master's goods and treasures were under his hand.

E.A.L. Also, he speaks of Jehovah as "God of my master Abraham" and says, "I am Abraham's servant", but then at the end of the journey he says of Isaac, "That is my master!"

J.T. That would suggest the interchangeableness of the names of divine Persons, that Abraham, typifying the Father, and Isaac as typifying the Lord Jesus, can be interchanged. In the first part, Abraham is his master but now Isaac is his master. That gives us the latitude and the liberty that belongs to us as of the assembly, the enrichment that marks the position.

J.T.Jr. Would the place of subjection of the Spirit come out in the servant here? The Spirit is here in such a lowly way, bringing out what is needed, as seen in these things which he gave to Rebecca -- and the camels also; it says he made them kneel down. Is this what is required in those that seek to be with the Spirit in what He is doing?

J.T. Quite so, he made them kneel down, as if they were subject to him. Very often we find young people are not subject; they have their own way, and say what they like to say. Whereas they ought to be subject and go by the Scriptures.

R.W.S. Is not Laban a little like that? Laban does not really seem to be going along with what was in the servant's mind. He seems to be a sort of aggressive brother.

J.T. Well, we will hear of him later. We will learn more of his history later in relation to Jacob.

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R.W.S. The servant is asking questions, and Laban is saying things. He seems to take precedence over his father.

J.T. Well, he did, and it was he and his mother who raised the question of keeping Rebecca a while; it says, "Let the maiden abide with us some days, or say ten". Well now, that is not a good sign. He wants her to abide with them, and who knows what would happen in ten days. It is better, whatever the word is, to go by it. Hearken to the word, is the point.

R.D.G. Does he not do well, however, in verse 31? He says, "Come in, blessed of Jehovah! ... I have prepared the house".

J.T. Quite so, he shows up well; he would be up to the mark, but at the same time we have to await his later history to see what he was to Jacob.

J.T.Jr. He is a remarkable man and takes precedence over his father. He says the right thing at the beginning, but he does not say the right thing later.

J.T. So that we should watch men's histories, what they have been, and what they are.

S.M. There is a remarkable passage in verse 33. The servant says, "I will not eat until I have made known my business", showing the urgency of it.

J.T. Quite so.

F.N.W. Would that word 'business' allude to the great objective in the Spirit's mind -- to bring testimony as to Christ? But is it not right also to see in this section how He rightly expects something for Himself?

J.T. Well, quite so. The business on hand was important. What can be more important than the business that engages the interest of divine Persons? And we have that on hand here tonight. Whatever we may be, or are thought to be, we have on hand the greatest business there can be.

J.T.Jr. The servant wanted to get away from this position, he was firm about that. "Send me away to

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my master", he says. He wanted to lead her on to this great meeting with Isaac.

A.B.P. Do you think that it was necessary to get the saints outside of the influence of Jerusalem to unfold the full doctrine of the mystery?

J.T. Very good. So you wait for the epistle to the Romans for that; that is where you get the mystery first.

A.B.P. Yes; and I thought that Nahor, Laban, Bethuel and the others represent the limitations of Jerusalem outside of which the Lord opened up the mystery through Paul.

F.H.L. Would you mind saying what would be suggested in the precious things in verse 53, which the servant left with the mother and the brother?

J.T. Well, I think it would typify the "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God", 1 Corinthians 2:9, 10.

E.T.M. Is this matter of making room particularly important in view of what is now being ministered? The apostle Paul said, in 2 Corinthians 6:11: "Our mouth is opened to you, Corinthians, our heart is expanded. Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your affections; but for an answering recompense, (I speak as to children, ) let your heart also expand itself". Was he concerned about making room?

J.T. Clearly; the expansion of the hearts of the Corinthians would make room for the apostle and his ministry. The expansion of the heart makes room for another. Really the making room is making oneself small, that you are not taking up too much room, you are reducing yourself. I believe that was largely the idea of making room at Corinth. The whole chapter enlarges on what was needed.

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D.P. Does Rebecca respond to the touch of the servant by letting down her pitcher on her hand and giving him a drink?

J.T. She made the pitcher available to him for a drink.

D.McD. This whole chapter seems to be an urgent matter; it speaks of Rebecca running, and Laban running, and then the servant says, "Do not hinder me".

J.T. The idea of running is remarkable; we get it also in John 20. Mary of Magdala ran. Peter ran, and John ran too; in fact, he outran Peter. The idea of running is very important in the things of God.

F.S.C. It says, also, as to Rebecca, that "she hasted and let down her pitcher".

J.T. She was alert and ready to give the servant and the camels drink; quite so.

W.W.M. Would you say that one of the great services of the Spirit is to detach us from our natural relations and surroundings? He says, "Send me away to my master" verse 54, and then again in verse 56 he says, "Send me away, and I will go to my master", as if the Spirit would detach us so that He can attach us to Christ. Is that the idea?

J.T. Quite so. And the question of giving to the saints, and being liberal toward them, is a great matter; it is specially stressed here. You are impressed by the chapter, by the length of it and how much it contains; but there is no loss of words, every word is of importance.

F.S.C. Is there not a great deal of meaning in the request of Abraham, "Bring not my son thither again"?

J.T. He was not to go back to the natural relatives. One has been impressed that the Lord, especially in John's gospel, indicates His relatives were out of accord with Him. Ultimately, according to Acts 1, his brethren were in accord with Him. And that is a very great comfort as to our relatives, for if we remain faithful

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and are patient the Lord may give them to us. It says in Acts 1:14 that the Lord's brethren and Mary His mother were there, and certain other women too.

R.W.S. If I remember correctly, you have spoken of Isaac as being a type of the heavenly man in testimony. Would Rebecca be his fulness?

J.T. I think she would.

R.W.S. As a product of the Holy Spirit's service and teaching, her conversation in verse 65 might link on with Revelation 22:17.

J.T. You can see what scope she had, and how scope is made for her; that is to say, she goes into his mother Sarah's tent. That is a distinguished tent. Isaac leads her there, so that she is thus amply provided with all she needs as his wife. I think that, typically, she dignifies the position. The line comes down to her and she dignifies it. It is a question of the persons through whom the line runs -- our antecedents -- and whether or not we are filling out the position as following in their steps.

J.H.E. The servant says, "And let it come to pass, that the maiden to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink ...". Rebecca does exactly that. She is in accord with the servant's thoughts. And the assembly will be when the Spirit and the bride say, "Come". We will all be in accord.

J.T. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". The bride is saying the same thing as the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. And verse 46 is very impressive; the servant says, "And I drank". In all meetings of this character we have the suggestion of drinking, and that the Spirit has refreshment, too.

J.T. There is an allusion to drinking in 1 Corinthians 12"For also in the power of one Spirit we ... have all been given to drink of one Spirit". That shows how important the idea of drinking is, and what we drink.

B.T. Would the two wells in this chapter suggest

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what is spoken of in Judges 1:15 -- "the upper springs and the lower springs"?

J.T. I would say that. The next thing would be to locate them; Ephesians would be suggestive of the upper springs, and the lower springs would be seen in Romans.

R.D. In verse 61 of our chapter it says, "Rebecca arose ... and followed the man. And the servant took Rebecca, and went away". Is that dual thought carried down to our day?

J.T. I think it might be said that the feminine side has to be brought into these matters. It says, "Rebecca arose, and her maids". We have to understand what the maids mean. They represent the feminine side of the position. Of course, Rebecca represents that, but in such circumstances it has to be amplified, as with Abigail, 1 Samuel 25:42.

J.A.P. What do you say about the men that the servant had in verse 32: "... the men who were with him"

J.T. Well, they would be persons marked by manly qualities, I would say, and capable of doing things, just as the servant was able to do things, in a supreme way. These men are like the men in John 17:6: "the men whom thou gavest me ..." They would quit themselves like men and be strong.

E.T.P. The servant says, "Do not hinder me, seeing Jehovah has prospered my way". These men would have part in prospering the Spirit's way in His movements;.

J.T. The prosperity was from Jehovah. Paul plants, Apollos waters, but God gives the increase.

E.A.L. Does the presence of these men make us wonder all the more at Rebecca's service in watering the camels?

J.T. Quite so. You marvel at it. I think we have to understand what the assembly can do, for we are to

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consider her here as representing the assembly. Think of what the assembly is capable of; what a vast thought it is!

S.W. Would the Spirit expect us to minister to Him as Rebecca did here in order that He might be gratified?

J.T. Quite so.

W.W.M. There is a verse in Romans 15 which reads: "But I beseech you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the love of the Spirit, ..." verse 30. Would that have in mind, not only what the Lord Jesus had done for them and what He was to them, but what the love of the Spirit meant to them?

J.T. I would say that; it is the volume of it -- the love of the Spirit. It is a remarkably rich suggestion.

W.W.M. That is a word that would bear enlarging on in our chapter; the love of the Spirit.

J.T. Yes. It goes along with the thought of "the communion of the Holy Spirit". The love of the Spirit is the greater thought.

A.B.P. Is that why the Spirit is the blessed means by which the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts? The Spirit loves and therefore is able to shed God's love abroad in our hearts?

J.T. Quite so, but it is just as well to say that this is the Spirit's love, "the love of the Spirit"; we might as well just keep to that, as it were, and give the full credit to Him. The passage quoted refers to the love of the Spirit, not the love of God.

A.B.P. How is that experienced?

J.T. Well, we have to distinguish between divine Persons. That is another thing that has come into prominence of late, that we are to be able to name divine Persons in what They say or what is said of Them. In the Collected Writings of J.N.D., Volume 24, page 46, there is distinction made between the work of the Father, the work of the Spirit, and the work of the Son. They are all distinguished for us there.

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A.MacD. In verse 58 the question is asked, "Wilt thou go with this man?" It says, in verse 61, that she "followed the man". In the type, much is made of the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so, she followed the man. He was the leading One in the whole movement.

E.A.S. So the matter is completed inverse 61: "And the servant took Rebecca".

J.T. "And the servant took Rebecca, and went away. And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country. And Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields toward the beginning of evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming". That is the thing to notice. Why should not the camels be noticed? They are the power by which she is coming; that is the idea, and we must not use any other power; it is the power of the Spirit.

A.N.W. And is not that compensation? They were ministered to when she gave them drink enough at the first, and now they serve her in bringing her to Isaac.

J.T. Notice that; it is a question of the Lord taking account of the power by which we are carried -- whatever it is that governs us, by which we are carried. We are not going in for any religious organisation or the like, we are relying on the Spirit of God; that is the idea.

A.R. The word 'power' is used in 1 Corinthians 12 in connection with the Spirit's operations. What is done in the assembly is to be in the power of the Spirit.

A.T.D. "The servant took Rebecca, and went away". Would that be like "the way" referred to in Acts 9:2?

J.T. That is the Spirit's way; and it is the Spirit all the way through here. The Lord says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life", but then this is the Spirit's way. There is a way that the Spirit has too.

A.R. Referring again to 1 Corinthians 12, there is a

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variety of operations, but the power of the Spirit is the power by which things are done. Things cannot be done in any other way in the assembly.

J.T. I am sure that is the truth.

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"IN THE MIDST"

Hebrews 2:12

It seems to me that we ought to seek to arrive at the truth of what the Lord had in His mind when He uttered these words. Did He take account of the assembly in the light of God's purpose, or did He also include in His mind the wilderness circumstances? My conviction is that the latter was not in the Lord's thought; but that He contemplated the saints as gathered around Him consequent on His death and resurrection, and so viewed as outside of wilderness conditions. To apprehend the thing in a concrete way, I think we have to go back to original conditions. We have to do this to rightly understand any assembly truth; and I would say that, when the saints came together 'in assembly', the Lord came to them and this was realised. The Spirit does not record, or give examples of the inward working of the assembly viewed in this exalted position after Pentecost. I think it is left to intelligent affection to find out. The scene after the Supper when they sang a hymn, is the closest analogy as to the singing, but this was before the Lord's death and resurrection; they were then on Jewish ground. Afterwards, the disciples would be regarded as His brethren before the Father, as now made known, but, referring to Hebrews 2, it is well to remember that it is not the unfolding of assembly truth, but primarily to show the humanity of our Lord. Therefore, it is not to determine when He sings, but shows that He sings in the midst of the assembly; it is a characteristic function, as also declaring the Father's name to His brethren.

It seems clear that the primary thought of the assembly is that those who form it should be together; and its distinctive privileges are thus enjoyed; this will be true literally when we are "caught up together".

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Much may be said of the wilderness as involving God's ways, but it is incidental. Though our wilderness condition cannot be ignored, yet I am sure it is not right to apply to us as "in the wilderness" what Scripture connects with us viewed as "in the land".

My conviction is that the Lord, in using the precious words recorded in Hebrews 2:12, did not contemplate the saints as in the wilderness, or in incidental circumstances, but rather as gathered together as the glorious result of His death. Were one to take the assembly as viewed only in the light of this passage, we would think of it in no other circumstances than as surrounding Christ to "go no more out". That is, we should not think of the wilderness. I am therefore afraid that, if we make the praise here to include what may ascend from individuals, as such, we lower its character. I believe it refers to the assembly as outside all here, and that it extends beyond the present period. Indeed it does not specially refer to any period. From another point of view, I believe the words "in the midst" in their ordinary force, mean that the saints are together.

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THE ASSEMBLY (4)

Genesis 29:1 - 30

J.T. It may be remarked at this particular juncture that there is considerable exercise amongst the brethren as to the types of the assembly which we are considering, but particularly as to Rebecca, in Genesis 24, because that chapter affords so very much about the Spirit. It has attracted great attention on the part of the brethren in Great Britain and elsewhere, but especially in Great Britain. Much has been said of it that is very illuminating if we could all follow it, and much was said at our last reading when that chapter was considered. But much has been said since then, touching on the truth unfolded in the type, the chief servant of Abraham's house being the leading personage in the chapter, along with Rebecca and Isaac, and being regarded as a type of the Holy Spirit. It has been noticed from time to time in looking into it that the name of the servant is not given; that is, he is spoken of as the chief servant of Abraham's house. Much has been said as to him, because the Lord seems to have in mind that we should have the Holy Spirit before us, especially as viewed in this type in relation to Isaac and Rebecca. It is not suggested that we now go back to what was considered at the last reading, because there would be no need for that. I think it was fairly well dealt with, and there is hardly time to revert to what we had then. But I mention all this to lead up to the truth that is now before us, so that the brethren may see that the truth of the Holy Spirit is involved in it, implying, as the type shows, that He is spoken to. The servant spoke to Rebecca and Rebecca spoke to him. So that the inference is clear that those of us who form the assembly are being spoken to; the Spirit of God is speaking to us, and it is our privilege to speak to Him, and profit from all that enters into that.

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R.W.S. Does the stress on the thought of the well and water here in chapter 29 involve that we are still in the realm of the Spirit in this type?

J.T. Well, I think another reference may be made; that is, to John 7 where rivers of water are said to flow out of the believer. And added to that is Numbers 21 where we have the great type of a well, referring to the Spirit, so that there is much in the idea of wells and water. In John 7 rivers of living water flow out of the believer. The matter of wells and water, which comes in very aptly in Genesis 24, comes also into this 29th chapter which we are considering now in relation to Rachel and Leah. Reference to wells is found in both chapters.

A.R. There is a condition in this chapter which is not in chapter 24; it says that there was a great stone at the mouth of this well and it had to be removed. I wondered if that may be like a hindrance with many as regards the Spirit.

J.T. That is a very suggestive remark, that there is such a hindrance as that. The stone has to be removed from the well's mouth, and Jacob did that; he rendered that service.

A.R. It involves a spiritual man to do that?

J.T. Well, quite so.

W.A.T. It awaited the gathering of all the flocks before this stone could be removed. It says, "We cannot until all the flocks are gathered together", verse 8. Would that suggest the bringing in of the assembly before the Spirit is available? The stone was not removed for the flocks which appertained to Israel; it awaited the coming in of the assembly.

J.T. Perhaps you would enlarge a little on your thought. You have spoken of that recently.

W.A.T. I was just asking as to it. The truth about the Spirit did not come out under the old economy as we know it today. But we have the truth of the Spirit,

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so that it really awaited the coming in of the believers under the new economy -- those of the assembly.

J.T. Well, that might be amplified by reference to John 7:39; the word there is, "the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". But now He is glorified, and the Spirit has come.

A.N.W. But is it not with peculiar design that the Lord should say, right in the middle of His remark, "... as the scripture has said"? Verse 38 reads: "He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". That statement put right in the middle of His remark gives great force to the Old Testament scriptures which must have been in His mind.

J.T. Very good; "... as the scripture has said".

R.W.S. In the allusion to the stone on the mouth of the well in our chapter it says, in verse 3, that when all the flocks were gathered together they rolled the stone from the mouth of the well, but in verse 10 Jacob, without waiting for all the flocks, went near and rolled the stone away. Jacob apparently did it alone. I wondered if that might indicate a good lead which others might follow.

J.T. Well, that is good. It has just been remarked that a spiritual person is required. Of course, it is not wise to enlarge on any one; it is rather wise to stress the spiritual side. Whether there are few or many who are engaged in the service, the spiritual should be stressed. And a meeting like this, of course, affords opportunity for that, whether we can join in, as it were, and roll away the stone, which would suggest anything that may be stopping the ministry.

E.T.M. It appears that Jacob moved the stone before the fixed time according to the custom?

J.T. It was when he saw Rachel. It says in verse 10: "And it came to pass when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban his mother's brother, and the sheep

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of Laban his mother's brother, that Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the mouth of the well, and watered the sheep of Laban his mother's brother". That is the solution of the whole matter; that is to say, it is the idea of the relation that existed between Jacob and Rachel just as it also existed between Isaac and Rebecca. It is the same kind of relation. It is a question of the previous relationship in both types.

C.A.M. It says in verse 8, "they roll the stone from the mouth of the well", as if that was a sort of methodical thing that happened all the time. But this move by Jacob seems to be prompted by love.

J.T. Just so; the relationship between Jacob and Rachel and Leah on the one hand, and Isaac and Rebecca on the other, is a great point in each of these two types; especially in the case of Rebecca because Abraham calls his servant to swear to him that he will not take any wife for his son except of his own relations.

C.A.M. It would seem that Jacob's move in regard to the well was, in type, because of love for the assembly.

J.T. So that the question comes up immediately as to where we are. I think we can rightly assume that we are here this afternoon because of spiritual links between us, and that these links centre in the assembly. And, of course, that is what God is aiming at in view of the final display of the assembly.

J.H.E. Nearness is implied. Joseph could say to his brethren, "Come near to me, I pray you", Genesis 45:4. And here "Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the mouth of the well".

J.T. Quite so. And then another thing is that Rachel was a shepherdess; that is, the matter of shepherding enters into the subject.

C.A.M. Would that mean that spiritual moves or spiritual help with regard to the ministry would involve considering for all the saints? Is it not evident that

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there has been wonderful patience in waiting upon the saints to lay hold of these spiritual things?

J.T. And the question arises as to whether the brethren are shepherding or are being shepherded. The spirit of shepherding comes into this whole matter, and it comes into the assembly, too.

V.C.L. Does the frequent use of the word 'brother', which is mentioned some six or seven times in the chapter, bring in the idea of the unity which is to mark us as understanding the truth which these types represent?

J.T. Quite so. It was mentioned, in prayer, that, "one is your instructor, and all ye are brethren", Matthew 23:8. So that the Master in heaven is the great Shepherd of the sheep. It is the ministry that the Lord is carrying on now to gather His people together, and the question is whether we are being gathered, whether we are submissive to the Lord's ordering and principles.

Ques. Would it seem as if there was unity there? It says, "They roll the stone ...". verse 8.

J.T. Well, it is a general thought: "And they said, We cannot until all the flocks are gathered together, and they roll the stone from the mouth of the well, and we water the sheep". That is a general principle which we might apply to a meeting like this; it refers to what is customary. There are well-known times for special meetings, but then that is not all. Although the principle was there in verse 8, the stone was rolled away when Rachel appeared; that is to say, when one who represents the spiritual family appeared. And Jacob was the leader in this; he was looking for a wife, and when he saw Rachel, he rolled away the stone. He was actuated by love.

R.W.S. Before Rachel came there was a sort of spiritual etiquette in the way Jacob greeted the persons at the well. There seems to be mutual respect. Jacob says, in verse 4, "My brethren, whence are ye? And

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they said, Of Haran are we. And he said to them, Do ye know Laban the son of Nahor? And they said, We do know him. And he said to them, Is he well? And they said, He is well". I wondered if that was not a delightful atmosphere preceding the introduction of Rachel.

J.T. Very good; although they were not of the spiritual family. Jacob was of that family, as was Rachel and Leah and Isaac and Rebecca. The generalities are, of course, very important, but the specific things are the things to stress at a time like this. The specific thing is the relations of the spiritual family, and that leading on to the idea of union.

A.R. In 1 Corinthians 12 the apostle Paul says, "in the power of one Spirit we have all been baptised into one body". But then, after the relationship has been established, he suggests the idea that we drink into the one Spirit. In our chapter the spiritual relationship exists, but Jacob works out the idea of drinking.

J.T. Well, just so, we are made to drink into one Spirit; that is to say, it is the divine action that effects it. And, of course, the action of making us drink into one Spirit enters into meetings such as we are in now, all having in mind the great matter of union. We should keep before us that there is such a thing as union with Christ, and it begins with the family relationship.

Ques. Is there anything in the fact that this is in the land of the children of the East?

J.T. Well, that is a distant idea. The prophetic word helps as to that, because it says that Jacob fled into the country of Syria and for a wife he kept sheep. All these things tend to help us as to this great subject before us. It is a great matter to have the prophetic word in our minds.

A.B.P. Would Rachel in any sense be typical of what the Lord found in the disciples before the thought of the assembly was introduced?

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J.T. Well, I suppose so. The gospel of John would show how they came into it. It says that the Lord loved Lazarus, and Mary, and Martha. They represent the spiritual family, not that others did not, but they did particularly.

A.B.P. It is striking that in John 11 there is the removal of a stone, and reticence on the part of Martha that it should be done. The circumstances are not similar, but there is a stone covering the grave of Lazarus and, when the Lord Jesus said to remove it, Martha demurred.

J.T. Just so.

J.H.E. Jacob says, "Behold, it is yet high day; it is not time that the cattle should be gathered together; water the sheep, and go, feed them". In Acts 19 Paul raises the question about the Spirit, "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye had believed?" Having received the Spirit, the school of Tyrannus follows, where they are fed.

J.T. Well, that is very good, I am sure, but this passage brings in the climax leading up to the family relationship, for spiritual relationship leading on to union is in mind. So that we have, "And it came to pass when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban his mother's brother, and the sheep of Laban his mother's brother, that Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the mouth of the well". That is, it is not the general principle here, it is a specific case.

A.N.W. There were various flocks there, but this is "her father's sheep". Whether the others got the benefit or not we do not know, but the service was for "her father's sheep". It says, "While he was still speaking to them, Rachel came with her father's sheep".

J.T. We have Jacob to begin with, then we have Rachel, then we have the father and the brother; so that the spiritual family is in mind; and presently we have the idea of union introduced. And that is the

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point for us now, as to whether or not we understand it.

A.R. Do you have in mind what Jacob said to Laban, in verse 21? "Give me my wife". Actually, she was not yet his wife.

J.T. Quite so; the idea of union was in mind.

A.R. Is it the same idea as in Revelation 19? "His wife has made herself ready".

J.T. Quite so.

F.N.W. Are you regarding Rachel as a type of the assembly?

J.T. No; we are coming to that; we must have an adjustment before we come to that, which is very often the case. But Rachel is now in mind; she was in Jacob's mind. Leah was to come in, too; Leah was in her father's mind. We have to wait for that, for Leah really is a type of the assembly, but she is a type of the gentiles; whereas Rachel is a type of the Jewish christians at the beginning of the dispensation. There are very few of them now.

E.A.L. In Genesis 24 we are told that Isaac led Rebecca into his mother Sarah's tent; and he took Rebecca, and she became his wife, and he loved her. He loved her after she became his wife. Jacob seems to have failed in that, because we are told that he hated Leah.

J.T. Well, quite so; there is a great discrepancy, which we shall come to, and probably the Lord will give us light as we come to it, because Rachel was in Jacob's mind, whereas Leah was in her father's mind. There is a discrepancy, and these things have to be reconciled. Very often there are such things amongst the brethren and they have to be reconciled, and it requires grace to reconcile them; in fact, it requires the prophetic word to reconcile them. In this case the book of Hosea gives us that prophetic word.

J.A.P. Whom does Laban represent?

J.T. Well, he is the father of both, he is the father

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of Leah as well as Rachel; but Leah comes in first, because God would have the gentiles prominent in this type. Rebecca came in as a great type in the 24th chapter, but now we must have the gentiles. The apostle says, "This salvation of God has been sent to the nations". The Jews faltered in taking on their great privileges, and God turned to the gentiles, and the passage quoted further states: "... they also will hear it", Acts 28:28.

V.C.L. Do the gentiles come into the place of the firstborn? It says, in verse 26, "It is not so done in our place, to give the younger before the firstborn". I wondered if Leah, representing the gentiles, came into the place of the firstborn.

J.T. Well now, that raises another question, because "the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven" is found in the book of Hebrews. It is a great principle. "Ye have come to Mount Zion; and to ... the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven", Hebrews 12:22. But I doubt that it is the point to link up the firstborn with Leah, because it is only a question here of the father's advantage and what would accrue to him; he would have his eldest daughter married first. But God had other thoughts in His mind, and we have other thoughts in our minds, too; that is to say, we know something about the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven. And this passage will lead to that. Jacob was thinking about Rachel, whereas the person to be united to Jacob at first was Leah, and we want to fix that in our minds, and see what Leah stands for.

C.A.M. The apostle Paul had great affection for the Jewish brethren, and yet, in Romans 11, he alludes to putting the gentiles first, finding that that was God's mind. Would that connect with this?

J.T. Well, it does connect with it, and that whole

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great parenthesis in Romans 9, 10 and 11 connects with it. Paul could say, "For I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren", Romans 9:3. But then that was historical; he came to the idea of gentiles in Acts 28. We have already quoted that; "this salvation of God has been sent to the nations". And that is the position we are in today; that is to say, the type before us now is Leah, and that refers to the gentiles. So the question is now whether we can take that in and put it together in the spiritual sense.

A.R. Peter needed to get adjusted as regards the gentiles before he went to Cornelius.

J.T. Quite so; Peter did not want to go to the gentiles; the Lord corrected him. "I have sent them", the Spirit of God said, of the gentiles, to Peter in Acts 10:20. The Spirit of God had to take the matter up, and He constantly has to take matters up with us.

A.R. So the sheet coming down, with what was in it, was to help Peter. "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common". That was for Peter.

A.B.P. Would it seem then that Jacob becomes a figure of the responsible element, like the apostles at Jerusalem; they finally discovered that the great thought was the assembly, the nations? In Acts 15 James stood up and confirmed what Peter had done with respect to the gentiles by bringing in the ministry of the prophets.

J.T. Quite so, so that that chapter is the great council of the church, the council of the assembly, and it was the solution of a great difficulty that had arisen; the Jewish difficulty. We are always suffering from that sort of thing, so that the word is, "Wherefore I judge"; someone has to state the case as to where the Spirit of God is leading us.

E.T.M. In the calling of the elders at Miletus, Paul was concerned as to the shepherding of the assembly of God, which He had purchased with the blood of His own.

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J.T. Well, that is the idea; that is what enters into the moment, the idea of shepherding. But now we have come on to the idea of union, and the person that was to be united to Jacob was Leah, not Rachel. Rachel would come in, but she comes in later; she comes in as the Jewish remnant in the millennium, whereas now we are dealing with Leah, who is a type of the assembly among the gentiles. We here are nearly all from the gentiles and it is very important to keep that in mind.

T.N.W. Is the word of Paul applicable here, that this is a great mystery, in connection with his saying, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly"? We are not able to understand everything easily.

J.T. It is not great in the sense that we do not understand it, because God has wonderfully opened up the truth as to the assembly for us.

R.W.S. Why does the type involve that Rachel should be more loved than Leah, and Leah actually hated? Why is there that admixture in the type?

J.T. Well, these are facts that come in here which we can easily follow and understand. Leah was hated, and God saw that she was hated; God took account of that, and therefore He gave her children and she became the fruitful mother of children; whereas Rachel was not a mother of children. Of course, God came in specially for her later, so that it is God in both cases.

R.W.S. But Leah is the greater type here, is she not, involving the great thought of union? That is in your mind, is it not?

J.T. She is; Rachel is a great type, too, but with her it is rather a question of the Jewish remnant in the millennium. I think that is in mind in Rachel, whereas Leah represents the gentile position.

A.N.W. That explains why she is less beautiful than Rachel.

J.T. So she is; she is tender eyed, it says. Apparently she was defective as to her beauty; and the gentiles had

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that defect when God took them up; they were not as attractive as the Jews. The Jews were better educated and had great advantages which Paul speaks of in Romans 9:4, 5, but at the same time God made up the defect. He made up the defect in Leah, and He made up the defect of barrenness in Rachel. And the great point, dear brethren, is the making up of defects. Paul comes in and makes up defects, whatever they may be.

D.Macd. There is no thought of defect in the words: "... having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things".

J.T. Quite so; that is an Ephesian thought.

A.MacD. And does Leah rise to the thought of being united? In verse 34 she says, "Now this time will my husband be united to me".

J.T. Well, quite so, but union and being united are two distinct thoughts. I think being united goes before union; union is the prime thought that we come into, union with Christ.

A.N.W. Do you mean that unity involves the unified state of the brethren, and union means our attachment to Christ?

J.T. And that we all belong to a spiritual family. We are not Jews and gentiles, we all belong to a spiritual family. And on that principle we can be united to Christ.

J.A.P. "The two shall be one flesh".

J.T. That is it, exactly.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that this matter is set out objectively in perfect pattern in Isaac and Rebecca, whereas in Jacob's history we see the devious way in which we are led because of what we are? We do not arrive at it quickly, but must go through experience to reach it. Is it more the subjective working out of the thing in us?

J.T. Just so, I would say that. But what has been said about unity coming before union is very important,

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and let us inquire into it, whether we are united to the brethren, and whether we are capable, spiritually, of being united to Christ.

W.A.T. It says, in verse 22, that Laban gathered all the men of the place together. Would that show the unity of which you speak? All the men were there.

J.T. Laban gathered all the men of the place together and made a feast. Well, the outcome was very distressing. And we do not want to forget Laban's conduct.

C.A.M. John 10 speaks of one flock, and one shepherd; that would be unity, would it not? And it would be prior, of course, to the great matter of union.

A.R. Kinship must come first.

J.T. It is seen in Isaac and Rebecca first. Abraham caused his servant to swear that the wife for Isaac must be of that kindred.

A.R. And you have stressed the idea that the brethren must come first, before we get the truth of the assembly.

J.T. Then we come to the idea of kindred, that we are fit to be united to Christ, and that is an eternal thought. We are to be united to Christ eternally.

S.J.M. Would Ephesians 2 help? It speaks of the middle wall of enclosure being broken down, making of twain one new man.

J.T. Well, that is the idea. Ephesians has that in mind; Jew and gentile are brought into oneness, one new man.

J.A.P. In Ephesians 4 it is unity: "... until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God", etc., and then chapter 5 brings in what we have been speaking of; being united to Christ.

J.T. That is all in Ephesians; quite so.

Ques. Is union in mind in the marriage supper of the Lamb?

J.T. Union involves that we are kindred to Christ;

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the same order as the Lord Jesus Himself, which implies redemption and being built up in the truth by the ministry of the Spirit, so that we are fit for heaven and fit to be the Lamb's wife, the bride of Christ. We are fit for that. So that the matter is shown to John: "I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife". We have to be shown these things.

W.W.M. Do you think that we must bow to divine sovereignty to understand things properly?

J.T. Quite so.

T.E.H. When Leah was brought in it caused strife. The apostle Paul suggests that he had great combat for the Colossian saints who would be gentiles. Would that be the Leah side? The beauty of Leah at Colosse may not have been discovered immediately by the apostle, as they apparently were not known to him at first.

J.T. Well, the great point for us is Ephesians. That is the prime thought we are leading up to. The Spirit of God is leading in that direction, that we might be united to Christ and be fit for union.

J.H.E. Would the naming of Leah's sons show what we have been speaking about? Their names mean, Seeing, Hearing, United, and Praise.

J.T. Very good.


Scripture may confirm itself, but does not necessarily repeat. One scripture is enough to establish any point, as John 10:35 shows. Some would make the Old Testament secondary, or a matter of detail, but the New Testament constantly insists on the equality of the Old Testament with itself.

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THE LAWGIVER

Numbers 21:17, 18; 1 Corinthians 4:37; Ezekiel 43:12

The idea of law is mentioned in these scriptures but what is in mind is not exactly to speak of law but of the lawgiver. One need not suggest that the lawgiver in an ultimate sense is Christ. And so the book of Genesis in a remarkable poetic production speaks of the lawgiver in relation to the tribes of Israel. Indeed, one wonders at times at how much poetry there is in Scripture, and coming in where it might not be expected -- particularly as written by shepherds and farmers. Jacob had to do with both farming and shepherding and he affords us some of the finest touches of poetry -- spiritual poetry; indited by the Spirit of God. Among these touches is found that which refers to the tribe of Judah. Judah's name, as most of us know, signifies praise. And the thought of praise has had a great place from time to time amongst the people of God, but especially in recent years in relation to the truth that may be interwoven in the hymnbook. Such a book is in our hands and it helps greatly in the service of praise. Of Judah it is said that his brethren shall praise him. The suggestion, no doubt, arose from the name that was given him. And so we read that the sceptre should not depart from Judah nor the lawgiver from between his feet till Shiloh come. So that the thought was long in the divine mind as a matter of counsel that Judah should have the ruler's place. And so our Lord sprang out of Judah, as we are told in the epistle to the Hebrews. And when Israel came out of Egypt, Judah was Jehovah's sanctuary, Psalm 114. The sanctuary of God was no small matter. And Judah had his part in it. David, who was of the tribe of Judah, particularly had his part in it. So that Judah was his sanctuary -- not Levi, but Judah. Undoubtedly, whilst Judah was in the divine

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mind for rule and for music and for poetry, yet Christ was in the divine mind before him and that is what gives tone and power and enhancement to Judah -- that the sceptre should not depart from him nor the lawgiver from between his feet until Shiloh come. Shiloh refers to Christ as the centre of gathering; unto Him shall the gathering of the peoples be.

Well now, we have the thought of the lawgiver in the passage I have read from Numbers. The allusion is not to Judah here. The allusion is probably to Moses; "at the direction of the lawgiver" the well is digged. The well would enter into the thoughts of all the tribes. It alludes to the Holy Spirit and so it is that Moses is in one's mind in that sense. I have been alluding to Judah first because it is the question of purpose with Judah, but before he entered on his office as ruler, which would be in David peculiarly, Moses served. He served to write not only the book of Numbers, but all five books of the Pentateuch. And so we may say that he has the greatest place in ministry to the tribes of Israel. Of course, the Lord Jesus has the greatest place, in everything He has the pre-eminence, but I am speaking now of persons who are like ourselves, creatures who are employed in ministry, and Moses, I would say, has the greatest place. And here he is said to have directed the digging of the well. It was at the direction of the lawgiver and the word was, "Rise up, well! sing unto it". So that we are happily situated immediately in the service of God; even at a time like this we are happily situated and circumstanced so that we have the well, the power of the Spirit, to help us in that in which we are engaged. And so the thought of the lawgiver comes in, which is important, for, even if we have poetry or singing or hymns or psalms, the principle of the lawgiver must be seen in all. That is to say we must be governed aright in all our matters and especially in God's service. And that is why I linked on Paul with

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the persons who are lawgivers. The epistles, or letters, to Corinth afford above all of his other epistles material for lawgiving. Although I disclaimed at the outset the thought of stressing law, there is nothing more needed in the true sense and particularly in the sense of which I have spoken. And so it is that God ordained that Moses should be a lawgiver. He is at ease in writing the book of Genesis. No doubt many of us have been struck with the ease with which things have been left in that book. How little restraint, how little demand in that book. What liberty we see in Abraham; what dignity in his liberty! And yet, he is subject to his wife at some times. "Cast out the bondwoman and her son", says Sarah, showing that Genesis introduces all that is necessary, and especially in a wife. Indeed, the book of Genesis is remarkable in the sense of the provision of wives for the ministers. So that we have in Scripture the idea of a man finding a wife. He finds a good thing, it says -- not simply a good person, but a good thing -- the thing being a suggestion of what is usable. And so we have the leaders in Genesis finding wives; several from Terah's family. Hence the latitude that is found in Genesis. It is a book characterised by old men, because longevity was much greater in Genesis than in subsequent periods. Hence those who were in God's service were mostly old men. And yet, probably the most effective in God's service in the book of Genesis was peculiarly a young man -- Joseph. One might name him the lawgiver of his day. God had made him a father to Pharaoh, and this shows how young brothers may acquire fatherhood before they are that by age. And how great the need is for fathers, dear brethren. We see it in Joseph -- a young man. God made him a father to Pharaoh. We can understand with appreciation the term 'Father' as applied to Christ: "Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace", Isaiah 9:6. So that Genesis, whilst marked by old men in the

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service of God, has the greatest expression of service set out in a young man, and in that service he is not simply an able man who can do things, but he is a type of Christ. And so liberty, in a peculiar way, enters into Genesis, and it comes down to Numbers in the fact that the lawgiver directs the digging of the well -- not giving law, but directing the digging of the well! How much we need the well, dear brethren, and happily it is evident here today that some effect is being produced by the ministry of the Spirit. So that what one is saying has in mind that there should be full provision made for the Spirit, for it was by the direction of the lawgiver that the well was digged and the song was sung: "Rise up, well! sing unto it", Numbers 21:17. The singing is unto it. We can see, therefore, the need of law in all our matters, and yet no mere code. There was a system of rules in Israel, but not in christianity -- no hard and fast rules for the service of God, and yet there is order. Even if it be the collection among the saints, a matter that has held a great place among the brethren for many years, it is worked out in liberty -- in liberty as to the circumstances of the servants or ministers, and liberty among the brethren in their needs being met. And so the great lawgiver says much about the collection. In earlier days it was a matter of how much was put into the collection rather than how much was needed. But the point in Scripture is what is needed: "... and see his brother having need". We must look into that matter and take care of it. But the great lawgiver says to the Corinthians in his lawgiving as to the collection: "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the assemblies of Galatia, so do ye do also ... that there may be no collections when I come", 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2. That is to say, the great lawgiver will not influence the pocketbooks of the brethren. He will leave that to love and calculation, for the need of the brethren has to be discovered and

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what is put into the collection is not to determine that. It is a question of love, and the love of the brethren will determine the need so that the giving will be according to the determination of the need. It is not simply according to the love of the brethren, but according to the determination of the need. So that obligation rests with it. And so the great lawgiver says much about the collection, especially in 2 Corinthians 8, 9. But in the first epistle he says, "that there may be no collections when I come", He is concerned that they are to be influenced by the first day of the week. He says, "On the first of the week let each of you put by at home, laying up in whatever degree he may have prospered". It is as God has prospered him. We must think of the need of our brethren, and our calculation must be beforehand so that when the collection arrives it is there and the need is supplied through it. I mention these matters freely so that we may have something to affect our hearts to be intelligent on the principle of the lawgiver. God has provided us with that principle, not a person with a whip, but with a staff. Moses was marked by having a staff; something to lean upon, but nevertheless denoting his authority. So that we are not at loose ends; we cannot do as we please in the house of God; we cannot do as the denominations around us. We must go by divine principles. And these principles work out in the mouth of the lawgiver -- in our care meetings and at other times -- through experience and knowledge that is according to God and approved by Him. So that an elder has a place; we are given stipulations as to him. And so the principle of calculation runs through our care meetings; we are not leaving things at loose ends but thinking of what is needed. And so, as I have said, it is at the direction of the lawgiver. And the singing, also. I can see the great importance of happiness. The epistle to the Philippians is marked by it: "Rejoice in the Lord always: again I will say, Rejoice". We are to

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be happy. The brethren are supposed to be happy. We have the means of happiness, not because we have lawgivers amongst us, but because we have the Spirit amongst us; the Spirit is made way for at the direction of the lawgiver. The lawgiver directed the digging of the well. And so the song, "Rise up, well! sing unto it". Under the hand of the lawgiver, dear brethren, we have the means of happiness: "again I will say, Rejoice".

And now the word in Ezekiel 43:12 comes to mind. Ezekiel was a priest; he was not a son of David, he was a priest. But he is in keeping with Moses as to the law of the house. I will read it from the New Translation: "This is the law of the house: Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house". So that we are not left to ourselves as to the house of God. I was speaking of the collection but other things are also in mind. It is not as if things are optional in the house of God and that we are found looking round for better situations or better spiritual circumstances. They are not in any hands but God's hands. Christ is over the house of God and the law of the house is determined by Him. The principles governing the house and the ministry and all related to it are regulated and governed by Him. So that He that has built the house has more honour than the house. Therefore again we have the greatness of Christ. He is greater than the house, and He must determine where we are to be and the principles that govern us, and if we elect to leave right principles and go elsewhere on account of other things, we are at issue with Christ. We are at issue with the great Regulator of the law of God, the Lawgiver. Whether it be the house of Judah or the house of Levi, Moses or David, the lawgiver is in authority and he must determine matters. For any to be just rovers going where they think they should, because they are dissatisfied with what they have, will not do; the Lawgiver will have to say

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to that. The Lord Jesus has to say to that; He is over the house and all the principles entering into it. It is remarkable how much Paul, who is our apostle under Christ, has to say about principles -- he is the great lawgiver of the New Testament under Christ. He has come before the brethren very much of late, and I believe to their immense profit. He fits in at the right time under the regulations of the great Head in heaven. The Lord appeared to him at a given time and at a given place. He selected the place and the moment and the man. He said, "he is a chosen vessel unto me". The Lord would imply that Paul was to have authority. We know well enough how religious leaders in this world slight Paul and his ministry. They did it at Corinth, too: "his presence in the body weak, and his speech naught". And such things are said today, too. But Paul was, in effect, the great lawgiver of christianity. I say in effect because, under Christ, that is what he is. He uses such language as: "if any one think to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the assemblies of God", 1 Corinthians 11:16. So we are to pay attention to Paul and be regulated in everything. It is remarkable how he comes down to the circumstances of men, women and children, so that all should be right in view of the assembly, for it is the great thought of God which was given to Paul -- the mystery as he calls it. "The mystery has been made known to me", he says, in Ephesians 3:3. So that everything is in his hands in that sense. Some may say that everything is in Peter's hands, but it is not so. Not one of the apostles has such a place as Paul; not even Peter, who was given the administration of the kingdom. But Paul has the administration of the assembly, of the mystery. So that we do well to pay careful attention to what is said by Paul. One has said many times of late, quoting a great servant who has brought the truth to us, that we are not to forget John, but cleave to Paul. It is for each one of us to understand how we are to cleave

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to the teaching of Paul, to make it everything in governing us in the service of God and in everything else. I would be far from saying a word against the other apostles, because each has his place, but no one has Paul's place. "As a wise architect, I have laid the foundation, but another builds upon it. But let each see how he builds upon it", 1 Corinthians 3:10. Peter does not say that nor does any other apostle. Paul alone says that and so we have to pay attention to Paul and become regulated through Paul the lawgiver. It is at the direction of the lawgiver, and as was said of Moses, the direction is to dig the well and to sing to it: "Sing ye unto it". The allusion is to the Spirit of God -- the singing is to God, not to Paul.

Well, I have said much about other things, but very little about holiness, but the word in Ezekiel is, "This is the law of the house: Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy". That must be something different from Jerusalem. Ezekiel has something else in his mind as to the law of the house. The point is holiness. The law of the house is mentioned twice in the passage. It is a question of holiness: "Be ye holy, for I am holy". It is the prime thought of heaven brought down to us in ministry -- especially Paul's ministry -- so that we should know how to serve God in holiness. And so Paul says, "we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh", Philippians 3:3. That is the idea. It is where the holiness of God is, "Be ye holy, for I am holy". God will not brook unholiness. Indeed, our children are said to be holy because they are born of christian parents. They are to be kept under hand for God and for Christ and for the assembly. We are to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. It is in view of holiness, that they may know how to be in the house of God and belong to it. And so Paul under Christ is

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the great architect of the house. He tells fathers about their children -- not the mothers only, but also the fathers. The onus is on them particularly. And so Abraham listened to Sarah. It was a question of the house: "Cast out this handmaid and her son; for the son of this handmaid shall not inherit with my son". It is the law of the house. The holiness of God involves that what is of Christ and what is of the assembly be preserved in the power of the Spirit. God is bringing this up that we may give heed to the lawgiver and make way for the Spirit, that heaven's mind may be known amongst us and that our children may be saved, being brought up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. May God bless these thoughts to us.


Whenever there is a movement of the Spirit, the levites are called into activity; Numbers 4. You will always find, where the Spirit gives any special impulse, there is a movement amongst the levites; things have to be taken up in a new way; the point of view you have had in times past will not do now.

Things are looked at from another angle now. The angle at which you have been looking from was all right in its time; the Lord was with you in that; but if there is a movement you must follow it.

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THE ASSEMBLY (5)

Genesis 41:45 - 52

J.T. We should revert again to chapters 29 and 30 to enlarge further on Leah particularly, and also on Rachel. What is particularly in mind as to Leah, in addition to what has been said, is that she names her children. Usually the wives named the children, and Leah, in naming her children, refers to certain changed attitudes toward her on the part of her husband. First, although he had hated her, he would love her; and then he would be united to her; and then he would dwell with her. All these facts are to be linked up with the truth with which we are dealing; that is, the types of the assembly. Leah fills out her part in this sense; she became the fruitful mother of children, whereas Rachel was barren, at first, but she also had children; and what has to be commented about her is that Jehovah remembered her, pointing to what Israel will come into in a later day; Israel will be recalled or remembered by God. They have been long set aside, for God has hid His face from the house of Jacob, but in due time He will remember His promises to the fathers, and that is worked out in Rachel. But particularly we should note what has been remarked as to Leah, because what we have previously touched on works out in her, namely, that her husband (that is to say, typically, those who are representative of Christ or of the saints in a responsible sense) comes to love her, as suggested in Reuben -- the thought of the assembly became loved by the saints. And then the thought of being united comes in as Levi is born -- the responsible element recognising union; and then finally, dwelling is suggested in Zebulun, for Leah said that her husband would dwell with her. These are great facts that will work out in our souls, if we pay attention to them, in addition to what we have already had as to Leah -- that she represents the gentile spouse

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of Christ; that is, the gentiles viewed as the assembly, which is a fact today. There are very few Jews in the assembly; mostly all are gentiles. And these thoughts are well worth thinking over; first, the idea of loving the feminine element representing the assembly, and then being united to it, and then dwelling, for that is what Leah said, that her husband would love her and be united to her and that he would dwell with her. Each of these statements was based on the desired result from the birth of the children, and their names express what was in mind.

A.N.W. Does not sonship come out in a very strong way in that fourfold progeny, the four children, as linking on with the assembly -- the first meaning, 'See, a son', the second 'hearing', the third 'united', and the fourth 'praise'?

J.T. I think that what was said this afternoon is quite suggestive and could be easily enlarged on in addition to what we have already said, if the brethren are free to make further inquiry, especially as to those thoughts just mentioned. As to loving, Leah says that her husband will love her; and then he will be united to her; and that he will dwell with her. These are features that belong to the young christians specifically.

J.H.E. Ruth says, "Where thou lodgest I will lodge". She desired to be in the gain of this.

J.T. That is good, that is one of the features. I think the order of the truth comes out well in what we have said; first, that her husband would love her. He would represent the Lord Himself, or more particularly the responsible element amongst the brethren -- those who lead or govern in the assembly. And then, following the thought of loving is the thought of being united, the idea of union, the same order of persons; and then, dwelling.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that as we progress in these steps assembly-wise it is all in the spirit of

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sonship? Those two matters run parallel in the epistle to the Galatians. Would not this paragraph help us to put the thought of the assembly, as to affection, unity and praise, side by side with the spirit of sonship?

J.T. Well, I should think so; sonship is really the highest relation in which we stand to God. It is pre-eminently so in the only-begotten Son; the supreme thought of it is there. But sonship, of course, applies to ourselves, and it comes in in the order in which we have been mentioning it.

A.R. Is it important to see the place Jehovah has from verse 31 to the end of the chapter? I was wondering if we should recognise the place heaven has in the Acts of the Apostles. God takes a hand in the matter so that the responsible element in Jerusalem is affected by His going out to the Gentiles.

J.T. Very good; if we look into it more closely we shall see how the responsible element recognised what God is doing. It is seen especially at the council at Jerusalem in Acts 15; showing how the thing was worked out, how the brethren came to the truth.

F.N.W. In Acts 11, before the formal decision of chapter 15, the apostles and the brethren heard that the nations had received the word of God and certain of the circumcision contended, but after Peter spoke of God's work in Cornelius and others, it says, "And when they heard these things they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then indeed God has to the nations also granted repentance to life", verse 18. Would that fit in with your thought?

J.T. Yes; way is made for the nations; that is the idea. And that is what Leah represents, although we shall see perhaps, briefly, later on, that Asnath also represents a similar thought. But I think we should keep to the 29th and 30th chapters for the moment in regard to these great points that have been mentioned. The Acts shows how God worked in order that they

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should come about. And God worked here; God worked with Leah and with Rachel. He interfered to adjust everything. And the great thing for us is that there is adjustment going on, and God interferes to effect it.

W.W.M. Would you say that verse 35 would suggest the service of God? She says, "This time will I praise Jehovah".

J.T. Very good; that is, you might say, the prime thought.

A.B.P. Would that bring in Philippi? Would Leah's exercise as to Judah be seen in the service of praise being established under prison conditions there, in the gentile area?

J.T. Very good, I would say that.

B.W. Would these four features be peculiar to the assembly at the present time?

J.T. I think that is the truth if we are all able to take it in.

S.W. Are they the outcome of exercise, thus representing fruitfulness?

J.T. Well, exactly; what comes out is that Leah was fruitful; she was the fruitful mother of children. It would be well to have the passage read.

A.N.W. It is striking that she should be loved because of her fruitfulness, because sonship was there fruitfully with her. The passage reads: "Leah conceived, and bore a son, and called his name Reuben; for she said, Because Jehovah has looked upon my affliction; for now my husband will love me. And she again conceived, and bore a son, and said, Because Jehovah has heard that I am hated, he has therefore given me this one also; and she called his name Simeon" (meaning 'Hearing'). "And she again conceived, and bore a son, and said, Now this time will my husband be united to me, for I have borne him three sons; therefore was his name called Levi" (meaning 'United'). "And she again conceived, and bore a son, and said, This time will I

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praise Jehovah; therefore she called his name Judah" (meaning 'Praise'). "And she ceased to bear".

J.T. That is very striking; the order is very good and instructive.

E.A.L. Lydia seems to come in as one bearing Simeon-like character. It says of her, in Acts 16, that she heard, as if she were taking on this principle.

J.T. Very good.

D.P. Would Leah, in coming into prominence through fruitfulness, overcome her earlier defects?

J.T. Well, exactly; love replaces hatred, that is an immense triumph.

A.B.P. Would features of sonship be seen in Antioch? The saints were first called christians there, as though they had taken on the family features. And also, the Spirit says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul ..." as though the saints were united there.

J.T. "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them". The Spirit of God comes into great prominence there. And that is what is coming before us now -- the prominence of the Spirit.

Ques. Would this hatred be our natural propensity as opposed to the assembly?

J.T. Exactly; hateful and hating one another, as it says in Titus; that is the idea.

Rem. But then when we come into the assembly we love what is spiritual.

J.T. That is so, love replaces hatred. "But when the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God appeared, ... according to his own mercy he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit". That is the point in Titus 3:4, 5.

S.J.M. In verse 32 Leah says, in naming Reuben, "Because Jehovah has looked upon my affliction". In the early Acts, when pressure was brought upon the disciples, it says that the word of God grew and spread itself. God got something from the pressure

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that was brought upon His people in the assembly.

J.T. And therefore she says, "Now my husband will love me". Very good; so that affliction should lead to loveable conditions. It produces love.

A.MacD. Does Paul refer to the responsible element in Ephesians 5 when he speaks of loving their own wives, bringing in the standard of Christ loving the assembly?

J.T. You are stressing the point of "your own wives". Paul says that we are to love our own wives?

A.MacD. I am sure that is in it too, but you spoke earlier in the reading about the responsible side, and I wondered if Paul was bringing that in in Ephesians 5. It seems to be a cardinal thought, as it says, "Husbands, love your own wives, even as the Christ also loved the assembly".

J.T. So that the love is to be pure and unadulterated; that is what I would say.

A.N.W. Perhaps what we have before us here calls forth the additional words in Colossians 3:19: "Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them".

J.T. Yes, that is on a lower level than Ephesians.

J.A.P. I think you have remarked that in Ephesians 5 where Paul says, "Husbands, love your own wives", the word would apply to Jacob, that he was to love Leah; she was his own wife.

J.T. That is quite true; and to fill it out would save many a sorrow. Husbands should be loyal to their wives and wives loyal to their husbands.

A.R. The last verse in Ephesians refers to loving our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption. I have often wondered as to the quality of such love and how it would work out in our relationship with the brethren.

J.T. Well; it involves that we allow no corrupt thoughts, no special friendships and that kind of thing. How much of that there is and what damage can be done by it amongst the brethren!

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A.B.P. When Paul took Titus up to Jerusalem, was he, in principle, bringing Leah's son into the matter with a view to bringing about unity amongst the brethren?

J.T. Just so; of course. Levi means united; and unity must enter into all our ministrations to the levites, that is to say, our special collections, which is a very important matter, too, and has often caused much trouble.

A.B.P. Well, would not the apostle introduce Titus as representing the idea of sonship -- his son, the product of Leah, so to speak, in order to help bring about this unity?

J.T. Well, quite so. And a beautiful thought comes in, in relation to Titus. Paul, in writing to him refers to "the kindness and love to man of our Saviour God" having appeared "not on the principle of works which have been done in righteousness", Titus 3:4, 5.

E.A.L. The servant in Genesis 24 asks the blessing of Jehovah when seeking a wife for Isaac. Jacob does not seem to have viewed things in that way; it would look as if it were natural selection with him.

J.T. He was hardly as spiritual a man as Abraham. Another point that should come into this instruction is that Abraham is the father of us all.

S.W. What is the force of Leah ceasing to bear after she had borne Judah? Is praise perfected in the incoming of Christ?

J.T. Well, but she had recourse to what her great grandmother Sarah had done. She brought in her maidservant to bring about children. These things have to be noticed. Where did that idea come from? It came from Sarah, the mother of us all. It shows how these things are liable to come in and we should learn to judge ourselves as to them.

A.N.W. What phase of the Lord's service would you point to as answering to the word as to Jacob in Hosea, which says, "for a wife he kept sheep"?

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J.T. Oh, the idea of the shepherd came down from the early believers; it is an early thought; it began with Abel and it runs down through the book of Genesis. And so it is that the Hebrews were despised in Egypt; the children of Israel were despised because they were 'men of cattle'.

A.B.P. That feature comes out in Peter, does it not? The Lord says to him, "Shepherd my sheep".

J.T. Quite so; the Lord is the great Shepherd of the sheep, as it says in Hebrews 13"the God of peace, who brought again from among the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep". So that the Lord Himself is the Leader in all this.

S.J.M. He said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me".

J.T. Quite so.

E.A.L. One like Joseph would not hide this characteristic of shepherding; he told his brethren to tell Pharaoh that they were shepherds-that was their occupation.

J.T. Just so, and it gave them a status with Pharaoh; he suggested to Joseph that if there were men of activity among them that they should take care of his cattle. He would use them.

A.R. Do we have much the same thing in Acts 20, where Paul sends for the elders of Ephesus and exhorts them to shepherd the assembly of God?

J.T. "Shepherd the assembly of God". Quite so; that is a very important matter.

A.R. That chapter seems to suggest the idea of purity of affections. Paul embraced the Ephesian brethren at the beginning of the chapter, then he embraced Eutychus, and finally, he is embraced at the end of the chapter.

S.W. Rachel, as a member of the spiritual family, is referred to as being a shepherdess.

J.T. And another thing about Rachel is that God

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remembered her. It is a beautiful touch, because she has a great place; I mean, of course, that the remnant of Israel will have an immense place with God, presently, in the millennial day. It is said that when Rachel bore Joseph, Jacob wanted to go back to his own land. It is a spiritual thought; he began to be spiritual as soon as Joseph was born. His name was called Joseph, meaning 'He will add'. God will add to the remnant of Israel.

A.B.P. Does the apostle Paul remember Rachel, in that sense, in Romans 9, when he says, "whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises", and then goes on to say, "... of whom, as according to flesh, is the Christ".

J.T. Yes, "who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen". Quite so; it is a beautiful ending. That whole parenthesis, including chapters 9, 10 and 11, shows that all Israel shall be saved. They are beloved for the fathers' sake.

A.B.P. It is remarkable that the one who really brought Leah to light in his ministry should remember Rachel in that beautiful way.

R.W.S. But she is not really remembered by God until after Leah's experience in verse 20: "God has endowed me with a good dowry; this time will my husband dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons". Is that thought of the husband dwelling a sort of final thought -- an end reached -- before the remembering of Rachel is brought in? We have had the thought of love, and union, but dwelling seems a more fixed matter.

J.T. Quite so, it is an eternal thought. There are shakeable things; things that are shaken, and then there are things that cannot be shaken, and these are eternal; and dwelling is an eternal thought.

W.A.T. Leah seems to be very jealous for the affections of her husband. She said to Rachel, "Thou

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hast taken my husband". Should the thought of my husband be developed in the assembly at the present time?

J.T. Well, that is the idea; love for Christ. It all should converge that way. The love of the assembly should converge towards Christ; the assembly loves Him, and He loves the assembly. Leah is concerned that her husband should love her. We would do well, perhaps, to analyse these things. It is not easy to see how all these details fit, but I am sure they all do fit. So that the great point therefore is to promote love among the saints, in the feminine sense. Paul said, "I have espoused you unto one man". Well, that is all the saints; they are viewed as a feminine unit. It is "to one man"; love converges there.

R.W.S. In chapter 29 there are numerous reasons given: "Because Jehovah has looked upon my affliction", and "Because Jehovah has heard that I am hated", and, "... for I have borne him three sons", and again, in verse 20 of chapter 30, "... because I have borne him six sons". Is there a suggestion that there is a moral reason for certain matters coming to pass?

J.T. I am sure the Lord is always ready to take account of these exercises. If there is a good basis for things, the Lord will attend to them and see that they come about.

W.W.M. The fifth son is called Issachar, and the note says that it refers to hire. Would that suggest the compensation that we have now in christianity?

J.T. As John says, "... but may receive full wages", 2 John 8. It is the same thing.

A.N.W. Rachel says, "Give me children, or else I die". Is that a good assembly feature?

J.T. Well, it shows how urgent the matter was with her. God remembered her in due time.

A.E.W. In regard to Leah and Rachel, the scripture

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says, "... which two did build the house of Israel", Ruth 4:11.

J.T. The thought of the two building the house is a good point; they are linked together.

A.E.W. I had in mind particularly that it involves the thought of dwelling which was before us just now in connection with Zebulun. These two builded the house.

J.T. Yes; it supposes dwelling. A great deal is made of David's house, too.

E.S. Is the same thought expressed by the Lord in John 14:23, where He says, "we will come to him and make our abode with him"?

J.T. Well, very good; the Lord Jesus and the Father will make their abode with him.

D.P. Would this rival jealousy between the two wives be seen in Acts 17 when the Jews stirred up hatred against Paul when the Greeks believed the preaching in Thessalonica and Berea?

J.T. Yes; and it was really active at the time the epistle to the Hebrews was written. After the Hebrew epistle was written there was a clear division made as to the gentile assembly. In Acts 28:28 the apostle says, "this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it". The dividing character of things that comes in amongst the saints has to be guarded against.

E.A.L. Does the mention of Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, give her a status as being the more spiritual of the two wives?

J.T. Well, it is remarkable that that is quoted in Matthew's gospel which is the assembly gospel; it gives her a place there. She would not be comforted because her children were not.

R.W.S. Does not Rachel suggest the millennial side of things?

J.T. I think so; that is what I understand.

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R.W.S. Then Leah is really a greater type than Rachel?

J.T. Leah is a greater type. It is a question of what God sets up. God gave Leah this place, and He honoured her in giving her children; she was a fruitful mother of children. Well, that is the history of the assembly among the gentiles. The number of Jews to come into blessing has gradually become less; there are hardly any now. So that the Leah character of the assembly is what is now before us, we are dealing with that now; we belong to it. Of course, it has taken a remnant character, but the light is still there for us.

R.W.S. Is there a certain distinctiveness as to Leah, then, which may be seen in Asnath also?

J.T. Well, I do not think we should go on to Asnath because there is not sufficient time now; but the prominence is more with Joseph there; he represents spirituality in Genesis. As soon as he appears on the scene the spiritual element is there; as soon as Rachel bore him, Jacob wanted to go back to his own country; he wanted to go back home to his proper sphere.

D.Macd. What is there for us in the fact that Leah's name means 'weariness'?

J.T. Oh, I think it is that she was objectionable to the natural mind, that is all. She was a wearisome person, whereas it is said that Rachel was beautifully formed.

T.E.H. Would it be like the gentiles being without God and without hope in the world?

J.T. Well, that would fit.

C.A.M. Would it also suggest the reproach attaching to the assembly at the present time?

J.T. That is what I think; the weariness would mean that she was under reproach as over against Rachel, who represents the peculiar education and history of the Jews. They had a great place religiously, you might say, as over against the gentiles.

S.J.M. There was rivalry between Hannah and

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Peninnah, but Hannah confided in Jehovah and hence there was fruitfulness; Samuel was born.

R.W.S. Why did you suggest Genesis 41 -- what is in mind in bringing in Joseph?

J.T. Just to touch on the spiritual side; he comes into Genesis in youthful spirituality; that is the point with Joseph. He was thirty years of age when he was made ruler of Egypt, but we meet him first when he was seventeen years of age, in chapter 37.

A.B.P. Would you say that the viewpoint is changed when we come to Joseph? Jacob seems to have been remiss in having his affections so definitely upon Rachel and not on Leah; he missed the dispensation, in a sense. But Joseph seems to be a more perfect type.

J.T. Quite so.

C.F.E. Joseph is said to be a fruitful bough?

J.T. "Joseph is a fruitful bough; a fruitful bough by a well". There is the idea of the well again.

Ques. Why does Joseph take the lead in naming the children; Leah and Rachel named their children, not Jacob.

J.T. Because Joseph is prominent as representing the masculine or responsible side. That is a point to see. The feminine side is prominent in chapters 29 and 30, whereas the one we are dealing with now, finally, is Joseph and he represents the masculine side; he is the ruler; he is Zaphnath-paaneah; he is the revealer of secrets and saviour of the life of the world. A great personage is in mind, and he gives names to his children. We learn what his history was by the names which he gave his children.

A.B.P. Would Joseph exalted in Egypt be a Colossian setting; Christ glorified among the nations?

J.T. Very good; quite so.

A.B.P. And chapters 29 and 30 fit into the Acts, where the historical side of the changeover from the Jews to the gentiles is recorded.

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A.R. The patriarchal side does not seem to be so prominent in our meetings as it used to be. Room is being made for younger brothers everywhere; Josephs are coming forward.

J.T. As you say, more room is made for the youthful side; we must rely on the youthful side; these are the ones that are coming on. One generation passes away, and another comes.

W.A.T. Is it not a question of men of activity? Pharaoh says to Joseph: "If thou knowest men of activity among them" (his brethren), "then set them as overseers of cattle over what I have". Should not that activity mark us whether old or young?

J.T. Joseph represents that, he was a man of activity.

T.E.H. When Joseph is first mentioned at seventeen years of age, it says of him that he fed the flock.

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THE ASSEMBLY (6)

Genesis 41:37 - 52

J.T. Our subject at this time treats of Joseph and Asnath his wife. The brethren will be aware that nothing special is stated as to Asnath. In each of the types that we have considered before, such as Eve, Rebecca, Leah and Rachel, there have been elements of virtue which have been recorded. In this case, what we may speak of as virtue is almost entirely seen in Joseph. He is outstanding in the family of Abraham -- outstanding in the whole book, really, as a type of Christ, and as viewing him thus, it becomes a matter of the facts relating to Joseph's history, especially in that part in which he typifies Christ as raised up on high. Indeed, in Acts 2:33 we have the word: "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God ..." So that we are to view Asnath as typifying the assembly from that standpoint, and how she runs through to the end of the dispensations -- not simply the present dispensation, but all dispensations -- because the assembly is seen as a family coming down from God out of heaven, in the book of Revelation. And, of course, from that standpoint, we cannot view her as either Jew or gentile. It is a question of our heavenly relations with Christ and all that is suitable to Him. So that it is said at the end of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come". They say, Come, to Christ.

P.L. Do we get this order in Philippians 2 where we have His exaltation, renown, and authority? It says, "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and granted him a name, that which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow", verses 9, 10.

J.T. Quite so; Joseph has the name of Zaphnath-paaneah, meaning 'Saviour of the world', or 'Sustainer of life'.

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A.R. Is that why he is one of the most outstanding types in the Old Testament?

J.T. I think he is one of the most remarkable types in the Old Testament. It is the type that runs through the book of Acts, you might say. When we come to the end of Acts, we have the statement by Paul to the Jews: "Be it known to you therefore, that this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it", Acts 28:28. So that that position, in this sense, would correspond with this type.

P.L. Would Colossians come into this? Is it Christ received amongst the gentiles when He was refused by His brethren after the flesh?

J.T. Quite so; and then in Ephesians, I would say, there is a combination of Jew and Gentile; nevertheless, the full thought is in it; that is to say, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32. It is not the assembly linked up with either the Jews or the gentiles, but Christ and the assembly. "I speak", he says, "as to Christ, and as to the assembly", and that, of course, comes down to our own times. So that what we are speaking of relates to ourselves as forming part of the assembly.

A.B.P. Did you suggest that Joseph's history spans the present and the coming dispensation? -- that it carries right through the recovery of Israel?

J.T. I think so. The future dispensation would imply His exaltation, too. The Jewish remnant will come into that, of course. We considered Rachel and Leah at our last meeting. Rachel really refers to the Jewish remnant at the millennial end. Leah would link on with what we are engaged with now; that is to say, Asnath would be a gentile, but she is linked up with Joseph. And Leah was first received as Jacob's wife, Jacob being a type of Christ there. Here it is Joseph. Leah was the first received, and Rachel, though loved first, was received last. But the word said of her and of Joseph

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is, "And it came to pass when Rachel had borne Joseph, that Jacob said to Laban, Send me away, that I may go to my place and to my country", Genesis 30:25. It was a question of the position in Canaan -- that the link should be there; and it will be in the Jewish remnant presently. But Leah has the first place, representing the gentiles and our part at the present time, which is the leading part, as of the assembly.

A.N.W. Is the link with Ephesians confirmed by the apostle's reference: "Because of this a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be united to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh", chapter 5: 31? The product of this union of Joseph and Asnath is witnessed to in his forgetting his father's house.

J.T. Yes; the apostle quotes from Genesis where the statement is made in relation to Adam and Eve.

A.R. Would Ephesians 1:22 apply also? Christ has been given to be "head over all things to the assembly".

J.T. Quite so. So that we have a wonderful subject before us now as to the exaltation of Christ, and His bride in that relation. It is not in the Jewish relation but in the gentile relation, the gentiles carrying through the whole idea. According to Acts 28, what has happened is, that "this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it". We belong to them, and are taken account of in that light.

J.T.Jr. Pharaoh would be typical of God as seen in Ephesians as giving everything to Christ?

J.T. Quite so; the Supreme. Pharaoh is viewed as the supreme ruler, and Joseph is next to him.

J.T.Jr. Joseph rode in the second chariot. Would there be in that an allusion to the relative position divine Persons have taken -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Perhaps we may be helped to open that up a little. The Lord would do this for us.

P.L. Is not the Holy Spirit introduced in verse 38?

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It says, "a man in whom the Spirit of God is". The New Translation uses a capital 'S' there.

J.T. In Pharaoh's mind, it would be 'the spirit of the gods', I suppose; but the translator, I am sure, had the mind of God, that the Spirit of God was in Joseph as He was later in Joshua. The same thing is said of him.

G.H. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", John 3:35. Is that in an administrative way?

J.T. Yes; very good; the Father loves the Son; that is the point; and then, "and has given all things to be in his hand".

E.A.L. Although Joseph was given so much power, Pharaoh did not seem to fear him.

J.T. Joseph was fit for it, which is remarkable. He was actually fit for the position and successful in it right to the finish of the book. Pharaoh is the supreme ruler and represents God. There is none greater than Joseph save Pharaoh himself, the supreme ruler of Egypt, and Joseph was second to him. We have to learn that principle; what is to be first, and what second. The Lord Jesus would lead the way in that.

G.V.D. Following on John 3, which has been quoted: "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", the Samaritans apprehended the Lord as Saviour of the world, in chapter 4. Would that link on with this section?

J.T. Quite so; the Samaritans recognised it; and in that chapter the Spirit shines, too. The Lord is seen as the giver of the Spirit: "the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life", John 4:14.

J.T.Jr. That would bring out the fulness of the name here. There are three meanings to it: 'Saviour of the world', 'Sustainer of life' and 'Revealer of secrets'. The idea of the 'Revealer of secrets' would

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come out at the present time, would it not, in what has been recovered to us?

J.T. Pharaoh had in mind the idea of the first two titles. We have to connect God with what he says. Whatever he meant, we have to connect God with it, because it has been preserved to us down the ages, that this is the name of Joseph.

J.T.Jr. And so Pharaoh says, "I am Pharaoh". That would emphasise what you are saying. Is it not an allusion to God asserting Himself?

J.T. Yes; "I am God and there is none else", He says.

A.N.W. The name on the Egyptian side means 'Saviour of the world' or 'Sustainer of life', but in the Hebrew it means 'Revealer of secrets'.

F.S.C. Had not Joseph been an expression of God to Pharaoh?

J.T. Well, he had, and he became that. The whole of the book from this chapter on indicates that. We shall see how Joseph represented God. When we come to the end of Jacob's history, he said to Joseph, "I know, my son, I know", chapter 48: 19. That is to say, Jacob was in the intelligence of worship. And, of course, Joseph had to fall into his place because Jacob had the leading place there, prophetically. But as to efficiency, Joseph's place is outstanding here.

F.H.L. I think this is the third reference to the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures, which is very suggestive in connection with the thought of Christ exalted. The three would constitute a complete testimony to the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Very good; the first reference is in chapter 1; the second in chapter 6, and the third is in our chapter.

A.B.P. Is not the Holy Spirit intimately linked on with the thought of sonship in Galatians, particularly? "But because ye are sons. God has sent out the Spirit

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of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", chapter 4: 6. I wondered if the idea of sonship is prominent here in the two sons of Joseph more than the idea of the assembly.

J.T. I am not sure that I am clear as to what is in your mind.

A.B.P. I was struck with your remark that very little is said about Asnath, but the two sons of Joseph are prominent and I wondered, therefore, if the personnel of the assembly is more in mind in relation to sonship.

J.T. I would go with that; but the distinction in the end of the book lies with Jacob himself, because it becomes a question of knowledge. He said, "I know, my son", and he guided his hands wittingly, putting Ephraim before Manasseh. He knew where to place the persons according to divine knowledge.

E.A.L. Do we see moral greatness in Joseph? He was ruler over the whole land, but he showed great respect for his father in going to meet him.

J.T. Another thing in respect to Asnath is that while she is not mentioned in any virtuous sense like the previous women we have considered, yet she begets these two children, and they come into prominence.

J.T.Jr. So that while not distinguished in herself, and not lending anything to Joseph, the sons bring out, perhaps, what she was able to effect.

J.T. Well, it just came to me now that there is that distinction. I mean to say, there is something more there that has to be recognised. And wisdom or knowledge have to do with it. Jacob saying to Joseph, with respect to the sons, "I know, my son, I know". He was conscious of his own dignity and greatness as a patriarch: he was Joseph's father. So that Jacob becomes a type of God in the book of Genesis.

E.E.H. Would you consider Jacob's blessing of Pharaoh in that regard?

J.T. Yes; "the inferior is blessed by the better",

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Hebrews 7:7. It says that he blessed Pharaoh and then went out.

A.I. Would you say that in this chapter, in type, there is so much of Christ, and the assembly has such a place with Christ, that, speaking reverently, there is no sense of any loss whatever in relation to Israel?

J.T. Manasseh's name would suggest that: "For God has made me forget ... all my father's house". And he is distinguished in regard to that at the end: "The blessings of thy father ... shall be on the head of Joseph ... that was separated from his brethren", chapter 49: 26. So that he is a type of Christ there, too, as separated from his brethren.

A.MacD. Is there something in the fact that Pharaoh gave him his wife?

J.T. One translation that I have seen says that Pharaoh married her to Joseph, as if he had the supreme right in that.

P.L. And the word gift enters into the name Asnath, as if she was given to him by another.

J.T. Let us see what it says so that we can get the full meaning: "... and gave him as wife Asnath the daughter of Potipherah", verse 45. The word gave is used.

A.N.W. And there is a link between her name and the name of Zaphnath-paaneah that Pharaoh gave to Joseph.

J.T. I think the godly way to look at all this is that God had it all in mind. It was not mere accident; God was overseeing it all. God oversaw all that is in the Scriptures.

J.S. God gave Joseph great fruitfulness among the Gentiles.

J.T. Well, that comes in at the end of the chapter. As to Ephraim he says, "For God has caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction"; and of Manasseh, he says, "For God has made me forget all my toil, and

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all my father's house". These two names are to be noticed.

J.T.Jr. Jacob is referred to in Hosea as toiling for a wife; that is, the toil the Lord had in securing the assembly. But here it is not that, is it? Is it not more the assembly viewed as given?

J.T. Very good; and we probably ought to be a little more favourable in what we have said about Asnath. If Pharaoh selected her, and undoubtedly he did, it was for such a man as Joseph, of whom he had said, "Shall we find one as this, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?" So that we cannot but believe that Pharaoh thought of what a man Joseph was, and what a place he was to have in the kingdom; and so he gave Asnath to him. I suppose he would think of what was suitable to such a man as Joseph.

A.R. Is that selection seen in that she was the daughter of a priest?

J.T. Yes; quite so. There may be something in that, for you can image that Pharaoh would not fail to provide a suitable wife, because it is a question of a gift: he gave her to him, as if she was suitable.

E.T.M. You were saying that Asnath does not occupy so large a place as Joseph. Is it not one of the features of the woman of worth in Proverbs 31? It says, "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land".

J.T. Very good; I was reading that today. Her husband is known in the gates. We cannot say that he was known because of her; but we may be sure that Pharaoh would think of what was suitable to a man like Joseph. And God thinks of what is suitable to Christ.

F.H.L. It is stated that Joseph was thirty years of age when he stood before Pharaoh.

J.T. That was the Lord's age, too, when He took on His public service.

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A.N.W. It also says in Proverbs 31 that "her children rise up and call her blessed". Manasseh and Ephraim are blessed here in the reference which is made as to them.

J.T. Her children call her blessed, so that the motherly side comes in there. She is, you might say, in line with Sarah on the motherly side, "whose children ye have become".

G.H. I would like a little more help in that Jacob toiled for a wife, but a wife was given to Joseph.

J.T. Well, it says in Hosea 12:12, "Israel served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep". He was an industrious man. He kept sheep, not simply that he had them, but he kept them. The Lord says, "those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished ..." John 17:12. I suppose all that would enter into it.

J.H.E. Would Asnath be God's answer to the suffering side, whereas Jacob represents more the toiling side? Joseph was sold into Egypt and cast into the dungeon.

J.T. Quite so; "the word of Jehovah tried him", Psalm 105:19.

A.B.P. "They afflicted his feet with fetters; his soul came into irons", verse 18. That would imply suffering, would it not?

J.T. Very good.

J.T.Jr. Would both sides be seen in the Acts? The Lord has suffered, and then He is seen as known in the gates; His name was known in Jerusalem. And then the assembly is seen coming to light immediately.

J.T. Say more about the assembly coming to light.

J.T.Jr. The assembly began to show itself in the early Acts, did it not? Joseph had suffered, typically; now the Lord had suffered and gone back into heaven, but He has the assembly as given to Him. The assembly began to show itself down here.

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D.P. And would Pharaoh recognise the piety of Joseph in giving him such a wife who was a priest's daughter and not one from the gross Egyptian world?

J.T. Well, it is to be noted that she was the daughter of a priest. Whether there is any virtue in the word priest in the Egyptian, we cannot say, but still it is there.

P.L. In the three times that her name is mentioned, her lineage is referred to. In verse 45 as the daughter of Potipherah; and in verse 50, "... whom Asnath the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On bore to him"; and in chapter 46, "... whom Asnath bore to him, the daughter of Potipherah the priest in On", verse 20.

J.T. I did not recall the reference in chapter 46. It is of note to see that she is mentioned each time with her lineage and that she is the daughter of a priest.

R.W.S. Verse 42 speaks of the chain that was given to Joseph, and then of him riding in the second chariot. Then we have the name which Pharaoh gave to Joseph, and finally, that Pharaoh gave him Asnath as wife. Is she a crowning feature of the section? She is no afterthought.

J.T. Please enlarge a little on that.

R.W.S. Well, he was given glory in Egypt; there was the ring and the chain, and the bowing the knee, but that is hardly the same as the wife. I wondered if Asnath being given to him was the crowning thought.

J.T. Very good; I would go with that fully, especially since the word gave is used in relation to her.

A.R. Joseph's two sons were born during the years of plenty.

J.T. They were born into good circumstances. How often we say to ourselves, and to one another, and to God, too, that we are in good circumstances; rich circumstances; rich times; because the assembly is blessed above all other families.

E.A.L. Asnath being the gift of the supreme ruler

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of Egypt would suppose that she would be the very best there was, would it not?

J.T. Well, I would think so, and I confess that I think more of Asnath than I did before, because of what we see in her now, that God had Christ in mind and the giving of the assembly to Him.

E.E.H. Does the reference in Psalm 2 correspond with what we have before us? It says, "Ask of me, and I will give thee nations for an inheritance", verse 8.

J.T. It does; it is the great idea of giving. And of Israel God says, "I gave Egypt for thy ransom", Isaiah 43:3.

A.A.T. It says that Asnath was the daughter of a priest.

J.T. That would probably point to the godly or virtuous side in her. And we are coming to see that she is greater than we thought she was. It is evident that God had in mind, in giving her to Joseph, to make her a type of the assembly.

J.T.Jr. She would correspond in that way with Rebecca; that is, Rebecca is seen as answering fully to the requirements of the Spirit, and Asnath would be in accord with Pharaoh's mind as to what was suitable for such a man.

J.T. Such a man is the very expression that Joseph used of himself: "Did ye not know that such a man as I can certainly divine?" chapter 44: 15. That is to say, he could reveal secrets.

W.A.T. She would correspond with the wife of Moses in the sense that she was the daughter of a priest.

G.A.L. Do we see a figure of the assembly largely made up of the gentiles in that Asnath was an Egyptian?

J.T. The assembly is largely made up of gentiles, and that is exactly what Acts 28 leads on to: "this salvation of God has been sent to the nations", and that has continued ever since, and we belong to it now in this city.

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P.L. Paul says, "For I speak to you, the nations", Romans 11:13. It all fits in with what you are saying.

J.T. So that we have to remember, as we come to this, that Paul was the minister of the assembly, and it is a question of the mystery. He tells us of it in Romans, his first great epistle.

P.L. I wondered if the 'Revealer of secrets' would link on with the mystery.

J.T. Clearly; that is where it lies. And that is what Joseph's name really meant. He was a revealer of secrets. And he tells his brethren, "Did ye not know that such a man as I can certainly divine?" They did not know that.

P.L. And this name which he received and his wife being given are mentioned in one sentence: "And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnath-paaneah, and gave him as wife Asnath".

F.H.L. Would Joseph being in Egypt and his interpretations to Pharaoh fit in with that reference, "Coming, he has preached the glad tidings of peace to you who were afar off", Ephesians 2:17? And does that precede the thought of Asnath?

J.T. Just so; that is an Ephesian word, and it goes on to say, "... and the glad tidings of peace to those who were nigh".

G.V.D. There seems to be a link between the name that Joseph received as 'Revealer of secrets' and what Pharaoh said in verse 39: "... since God has made all this known to thee". Would this suggest communion between divine Persons?

J.T. Pharaoh took notice of it. It was an immense thing for him and for his kingdom. What Joseph revealed to him enormously implemented his place in the kingdom.

A.R. Verse 50 would further enhance Asnath in our minds in the reference to the two sons, "whom Asnath ... bore to him".

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V.C.L. It is interesting that Asnath was given to Joseph before he went out over the land of Egypt, as though there would be peculiar solace and comfort for his heart as the final bit of glory before he took on administration.

J.T. And the wealth that entered into his service is very striking; in fact, it is said that the corn was "as sand of the sea exceeding much". It could not be computed, the amount that he gathered up was "without number". So that what we have come into is infinitude.

W.A.T. Verse 47 says, "And in the seven years of plenty the land brought forth by handfuls". Would 'handfuls' suggest that the abundance is within our reach?

J.T. Man's hand is in mind, but the earth brought forth. God did that under Joseph.

P.L. Does that refer to the true Joseph: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25?

J.T. Quite so. He says, "I suppose": it is left just in that way, as an infinite thought for us to drink in.

J.T.Jr. It says, "And the seven years of plenty that were in the land of Egypt were ended". I suppose that time is coming, is it not? We are in the time of the fulness of things now, but there will soon be a famine.

J.T. "And the seven years of the dearth began to come", verse 54. How terrible that thought is!

R.W.S. Is there a sense in which there is double fruitfulness now? I wondered if Ephraim's name, meaning 'Double fruitfulness', might link on with the Spirit. Here, we have double fruitfulness; in Ezekiel, the double river; and in 2 Kings, a double portion of Elijah's spirit. Is there some relation with the Spirit in this type?

J.T. And then there is the double occurrence of

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Pharaoh's dream. Joseph's explanation was that the thing was established.

P.L. Joseph has a double portion in Ezekiel 47:13: "This shall be the border whereby ye shall allot the land as inheritance according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions".

J.T. Yes, quite so; in connection with Pharaoh's dream, the explanation is that the thing was established: "And as regards the double repetition of the dream to Pharaoh, it is that the thing is established by God, and God will hasten to do it".

J.T.Jr. It is so sure that God will hasten to do it. Joseph brings God into these matters. In regard to his sons also, He brings God in: "For God has made me forget ..." and "For God has caused me to be fruitful". It would be piety, would it not?

J.T. Quite so; the Lord could say, "the men whom thou gavest me out of the world", John 17:6.

A.B.P. Would "the thing is established by God" connect with divine counsel and purpose as brought in in Ephesians: "according as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation", Ephesians 1:4?

J.T. Very good.

A.I. Would the seven years of plenty have the present time in view?

J.T. Well, I think it is the gospel time. There has never been such a time in the history of the world. We do not hear of universal famines, but they used to have them. In Old Testament times and in the middle ages there were great famines; but God is very gracious to us, and it is because of the truth and of what He is doing by the Spirit here on earth.

A.R. And is the present ministry establishing us in the truth of the Spirit here?

J.T. I think God is acting through it; and there is a remarkable product from it. God is blessing it in relation to His service and His work.

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J.H.E. So that Paul was "to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things, in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God", Ephesians 3:8 - 10. Is that like Joseph's position in Egypt?

J.T. Very good; and then he goes on to the Father: "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named".

S.W. Did I understand that the new Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven is neither Jew nor gentile?

J.T. We do not think of that side of things at all in relation to what is in heaven. It is not a question of Jew or gentile. It is what God has put there.

S.W. When Jacob claimed Ephraim and Manasseh as his sons, would he be a type of God linking on the gentiles with the remnant? Jacob said, "And now thy two sons, who were born to thee in the land of Egypt before I came to thee into Egypt, shall be mine: Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon", chapter 48: 5. Reuben and Simeon were born to Jacob, but Ephraim and Manasseh were born to Joseph when he was in Egypt, and typical of what Christ has acquired among the gentiles.

J.T. We cannot very well say that they were Egyptians, though born in Egypt. They were Israelites; they were children of Joseph, as he says to his father: "They are my sons, whom God has given me here", verse 9.

A.N.W. That is a striking thing. While they are the children of Asnath, it says, "And to Joseph were born two sons", chapter 41: 50.

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P.L. And Joseph's two sons are listed in the family of Israel, in chapter 46: "And to Joseph in the land of Egypt were born Manasseh and Ephraim", verse 20. They are linked on.

J.T. Yes; they were born in Egypt but they are linked on to the generations of Jacob.

Ques. What is the force of the word regulate in this chapter? It says, "according to thy commandment shall all my people regulate themselves".

J.T. It means that they were to be under control or in order. If you are in the right place, remain there! God has put you there. If you know where your place is, be there! You are to be regulated. God will never put you in a trade union! But He will put you where He wants you. And so Joseph was to regulate everything. He was next to Pharaoh and was to act for him in everything.

A.B.P. And it says, "and without thee shall no man lift up his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt". Does it not apply to what we do and where we go?

J.T. Quite so; the hand or foot.

P.L. "To bind his princes at his pleasure, and teach his elders wisdom", Psalm 105:22.

J.T. The ability to teach, not only to grow corn in the land but to teach his elders, or senators, wisdom.

R.H.S. What are we to learn by the fact that Jacob claims Joseph's sons in chapter 48, saying, "They shall be mine"?

J.T. It is the sovereign right of fatherhood.

A.B.P. The Lord Jesus said, "the Father himself has affection for you, because ye have had affection for me", John 16:27. Is that like Jacob taking the two sons of Joseph into adoption?

J.T. It is the Father taking the sons as His own; so that the Father has taken us all on. Although given to Christ, the Father takes us on. He has made us sons. He is bringing many sons to glory.

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G.H. In the prophecy of Joel it says of God, "I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh", chapter 2: 28. Would that thought of liberality and plenty fit in with this section?

J.T. Quite so; Peter says, "but this is that which was spoken through the prophet Joel. And it shall be in the last days, saith God, that I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions", Acts 2:16, 17. There is great liberality in what is given from God.

J.A.P. If we come up to what Manasseh and Ephraim represent we would be affording Christ a measure of joy, that He may forget His toil and have fruitfulness now.

P.L. Is this thought extended, in measure, to Paul? He says first, "forgetting the things behind", (Philippians 3:13), which may bear on the forgetfulness implied in the name of Manasseh; and then he continues, "So that, my brethren, beloved and longed for, my joy and crown", chapter 4: 1. Would that be the double fruitfulness?

W.S. Is it not significant that Hebrews 11 says, "By faith Jacob when dying blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshipped on the top of his staff"; and then the chapter closes with "God having foreseen some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us".

J.T. Very good; he blessed both the sons of Joseph.

F.S.C. Is there anything in the fact that Joseph named his two sons, whereas Jacob's two wives named their sons?

J.T. That would only stress what we have been saying; that Joseph has the supreme place in these chapters; he names his sons himself.

C.F.E. Is there any meaning in Joseph riding in the second chariot?

J.T. It means that he took the place that Pharaoh

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gave him. The supreme ruler gave him that place. None but Joseph could occupy it. There was none greater than he except Pharaoh.

A.B.P. The Lord Jesus could say in answer to the wife of Zebedee: "to sit on my right hand and on my left, is not mine to give, but to those for whom it is prepared of my Father", Matthew 20:23.

J.T. Just so; it is a question of the sovereignty of God.

F.N.W. And in that place, as next to Pharaoh, he has Asnath. Would it be right to say that the assembly is given to Christ as having taken up a subservient position in relation to the Father, but that we always reverence Him as God?

J.T. But no matter how great the assembly may be, we cannot bring her into deity. This must always be brought into the truth. It is wonderful what a place the assembly has, and we are of it, because we have the indwelling Spirit. God will not take away the Holy Spirit from us. We are sealed for ever!

D.P. Everyone in the land would know that the throne was supporting Joseph, and that in carrying out his administration he could use the power of the throne to enforce Pharaoh's rights.

J.T. He has part in the throne, but still, he was second to Pharaoh. He was second, because Pharaoh had the throne, and was the supreme ruler.

G.V.D. Would this scripture apply: "God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ", Acts 2:36?

J.T. God has done it, and we cannot question it.

A.N.W. Does not Philippians 2 put it beautifully, that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God the Father's glory", verses 10, 11? The lordship is owned to Christ, but the glory to God the Father.

J.T. That is so, but when we come to Christ we must remember that He is God Himself.

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A.R. It says in Ephesians, with respect to union, that the two shall be one flesh, but is union presented in 1 Corinthians 6:17, as based upon our having the Spirit? "But he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit". Is union with Christ as close as we can get to deity?

J.T. Quite so; union is a wonderful subject, but it does not place us in deity.

J.H.E. The devil's lie at the beginning was, "ye will be as God", Genesis 3:5. So that we must be ever alert to his insinuations, that we do not regard ourselves as greater than we are.

J.T. Quite so; the Lord Himself, however, quoted the scripture as to the judges of Israel, saying, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), do ye say of him whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am Son of God?" John 10:34 - 36. So that the idea of gods, in that sense, was applied to men, but that does not mean that we have part in deity.

R.D. Would you say a word as to the heavenly origin of the assembly?

J.T. I think that is a question of the purpose of God in eternity. It is an eternal thought of God to have the assembly for Christ.

J.T.Jr. So that she comes down and she goes up again. She has that liberty as no other family has.

W.A.T. And does mystery attach to the assembly? There seems to be something mysterious about Asnath because we do not get much about her.

J.T. Well, we have noted three references to her, and that means something in her case. She has a peculiar place in the realm of Joseph and of Pharaoh, the supreme head.

E.T.P. Would an appreciation of what this setting typifies give a glorious character to our preachings?

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The apostle writes of "the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ".

J.T. Very good; so that if you are preaching there is radiancy in it. It is wonderful to be conscious of that; "the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ". And usually there is reproach attached to it.

V.C.L. It says that Joseph went out from Pharaoh and passed through the whole land of Egypt. Would that refer to the shining out of the word of God at the present time?

J.T. I suppose that the universal character of the testimony would be in mind, especially in view of the famine that was coming. If the blessing is in mind, the judgment is also in mind. And that is what the book of Revelation discloses to us, the terrible judgment that is to come upon the unbelievers.

A.B.P. Is another feature of this chapter the fulfilment of Joseph's word? It says, "... according as Joseph had said", verse 54. And in Psalm 105 it says, "the word of Jehovah tried him". Stress is being laid on announcing the word of God.

J.T. That is what we have on our notice boards; it is pretty much universal now, and it is right.

A.B.P. It is a challenge to everyone that preaches that what is said takes on that character.

J.T. The announcement of the word of God is oral; that is to say, it is a question of a person speaking, and how he speaks.

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THE ASSEMBLY (7)

Exodus 2:11 - 25; Exodus 3:1 - 6

J.T. It is to be noticed that in chapter 2 Moses is seen at a well. The well is also seen in relation to Isaac and Rebecca in Genesis 24. They are among the most outstanding types of Christ and the assembly. The idea of the well is seen very prominently in connection with them and then Jacob, as having come to Padan, in Genesis 29 is seen at a well. And, as has been said, the same thing is seen here. No doubt the well is intended to typify the Spirit. God has been pleased to impress us with the truth of the Holy Spirit in recent times. There can be no doubt that the idea of a well as seen in these cases anticipates what is seen in a believer in John 4. It is said that the water that Christ would give him would be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life, which is an allusion to the Spirit undoubtedly. We may well speak of it from that point of view and carry on, in a way, what has been often before us in these readings; that is, that the Spirit is peculiarly prominent in our considerations at the present time. In our allusions to Him we find peculiar support, and it is hoped that it will be so at this time. Moses, the great servant whom we are now considering, wrote the first five books of the Scriptures. How they are lit up with light and instruction for us as to the service of God! In no section of Scripture, perhaps, do we find the service of God more prominent than in the books of Moses. A corresponding thought is in the Psalms, where we also find five books, in which the service of God is constantly before us as we read them. Another thing that may be said, perhaps, to elucidate the subject now in hand, is that in Isaac's case there was no one who is said to have given Rebecca to him. Jehovah gave Eve to Adam; that is, He brought her to Adam, and Adam named her and gave the reason for the name.

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Then, in the case of Jacob, both Leah and Rachel were given to him; then Pharaoh gave Asnath to Joseph; and, so here, Jethro gives Moses his wife. But as regards Isaac and Rebecca, it is a question of the Spirit; the Spirit affording the assembly, as it were, so that Isaac takes her. It is said that Isaac took Rebecca and she became his wife. He led her into his mother's tent, and he loved her. I think it is important to have before us that the Spirit has a peculiar place in that type, which affords light for us at the present time, operating in our hearts and disclosing to us what we have in the Spirit, and helping us on these occasions, preparing us for presentation to Christ.

A.N.W. Is not the idea of the well enforced here by the Spirit in that Moses sat by the well? The well is defined. He sat by the well; not any well.

J.T. Yes; the article before it makes it more distinctive. It is not simply a well, although that is said in John 4"Now a fountain of Jacob's was there", but here it is distinctive, it is the well.

C.A.M. Do you have in mind that, because the well is prominent in these passages, as connecting it with the Spirit, we should now be able to discern the feminine side in a positive way?

J.T. Well; much is made of the woman, not that she was of any great importance in any personal way like Abigail, but still, she is much in the mind of the Spirit, and surely Moses lends background because of his importance.

F.H.L. Is there anything suggestive in the positions in which these wells are found? In the case of Rebecca it was 'outside the city'; with Rachel it was 'in the fields'; and here it is 'in the land of Midian'. Is it that the well was something quite apart from the ordered setting?

J.T. Well, if we come to the antitype it is infinitude, the Holy Spirit is a divine Person. How can we say too

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much about Him! And the setting is divine. We cannot say much about the Persons of the Deity before incarnation; but now that incarnation has taken place we can have some idea, because of the declaration: "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18. So that it is a question of the Person and where He is, in the bosom of the Father. That is a wonderful setting. I think that what we get in John 1 about the Lord's Person is wonderful, and it involves that He is in the bosom of the Father.

F.H.L. Yes; it is all outside of men's organised system of things. It is outside the city in John 4.

A.N.W. Who can trace the source of a well, even physically?

J.T. The spring, or course, of it is unseen.

A.R. As soon as the well comes into view, the feminine side comes forward; the seven daughters of the priest are mentioned: "And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water", verse 16.

J.T. The word seven is to be noted; Zipporah is a selection from seven. The feminine side is peculiarly pronounced; not even in the case of Rebecca is, it so pronounced. There are seven sisters.

A.R. As soon as the Spirit is seen, typically, in the well, the feminine side is brought forward.

J.T. Yes; the feminine side is brought forward as soon as the well is mentioned. The support of the Spirit is required for the feminine side; and of course, Paul says, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2. There was great need for spiritual support there. It was not being availed of fully at Corinth, but the question is as to ourselves. What support, in the spiritual sense, is there for the feminine side? The Lord is helping us as to it.

V.C.L. It says that Moses was afraid after slaying

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the Egyptian, but after sitting at the well he is no longer afraid of these shepherds, and he delivered the women from the shepherds.

J.T. Well, it seems to me that the matter spreads out as we speak of it, because it is not a question of sisters, but of the feminine side as seen in the assembly.

A.A.T. Moses sat by the well. In John 4, the Lord was weary with the way He had come and He sat just as He was at the well. Is there any suggestion in that?

J.T. There is indeed; we are all aiming at one thing, the thought of Christ and the assembly. "I speak", says Paul, "as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32. And so it is a question of how much place we are giving this great subject.

W.A.T. Would you say that Moses would find no satisfaction in Midian; it was not God's end for him, so he sat by the well. Should that not be our attitude?

J.T. Quite so; and the thought of the well comes into the gentile setting, because this is the gentile setting. It is Midian; Reuel was a Midianite; he was not a son of Jacob; but still, his daughter was suitable for Moses. So that we have to look about and see where the gentile comes into the truth of the assembly, and see how this fits in now; though literally, there are very few Jews amongst those that form the assembly. They are almost entirely gentiles. God has taken them up and sanctified them, as we see in the word to Peter in Acts 10; God has cleansed them. The idea of cleansing comes in so as to remove the Midianitish stain. There are the two ideas of cleansing, the blood and the water; not water only but water and blood.

A.I. It is said by Paul: "to whom God would make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you the hope of glory", Colossians 1:27.

A.B.P. Stephen goes into considerable detail in

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speaking of the feelings amongst the brethren of Moses and his fleeing to Midian, and seems to connect it with resisting the Spirit inasmuch as he concludes his address by saying, "ye do always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers, ye also", Acts 7:51.

J.T. The point there is their resistance of the Holy Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Moses, in Midian, is in relation to the gentiles, as having left Egypt where Israel sojourned. So that Christ has the assembly first.

J.T. So that the mind of the Spirit travels toward Christ and the assembly. The Spirit moves in that way.

A.A.T. Is Zipporah a type of the gentile bride?

J.T. Well, she was a gentile, and as we noted in regard to Asnath, she had certain moral virtues, at least typically, and therefore she was suitable to Moses; and there must be moral virtues in us to make us suitable to Christ.

J.H.E. "I have other sheep which are not of this fold: those also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one flock, one shepherd", John 10. That brings in the gentile.

J.T. Yes; "those also I must bring". The whole matter is settled through redemption. The gentile stain, if there be one, is settled through redemption. The water and the blood cleanse from every defilement.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that, if we knew more about this attitude of rest and sitting by the well, we would anticipate something of the fruit of the Spirit, and love, joy and peace would result from it? I was thinking of Moses' situation. As we count on the Spirit, in that restful way, can we not anticipate God coming in and helping us as to our apprehension of the feminine side? So that God brought about this wonderful attachment of love as a result of his being found in that restful place at the well, which is typical of the Spirit.

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J.T. Quite so; and the selection is made from seven, but Zipporah is the specific one; so that the mind is directed to her; of all the families in the heavens and on the earth, named of the Father, the mind is directed to the assembly as the one suited to Christ.

R.W.S. And though the matter commenced with the well, it was not long before there were greater thoughts. It says, "An Egyptian ... drew water abundantly for us". That which we apprehend in a small way at first becomes enlarged and greatly magnified as indeed, today, with the ministry as to the Spirit.

J.T. So we have the word abundantly; that should be noticed particularly: "An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly", verse 19. Well now, our minds are to be occupied first with the Bridegroom, because, "He that hath the bride is the bridegroom", and the Bridegroom affords bountifulness. And so He said, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly", John 10:10. In John that is the idea of life.

A.N.W. So that in John 7 the Lord says: "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".

D.P. And would the rejection of Moses, as typifying Christ's rejection by Israel, free the Spirit to come into prominence in a sovereign way among the gentiles?

J.T. Quite so; and that is the point that comes out through Peter's visit to Caesarea. The Spirit fell upon them. It was His own action; as we have been saying in regard to Rebecca, because the Spirit is in mind in the way she is brought to Isaac, and the well enters into the setting there. And so at Caesarea the Spirit fell on them as it did on the disciples at Pentecost. And that means that there was the idea of abundance, as it says, "God gives not the Spirit by measure", John 3:34. He gives the Spirit abundantly, without measure.

J.T.Jr. John's ministry, therefore, fits in here: "He

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came to his own and his own received him not". And then chapter 4 develops the well, the Lord speaking of it extensively there as also in chapters 7 and 14. The Lord opens up great thoughts of the Spirit, peculiarly in John's gospel.

J.T. And also the matter of His own reception: "his own received him not". The negative side affords the basis of righteousness in the Lord separating Himself in the gospel testimony and going among the gentiles. "This salvation of God has been sent to the nations". But in John 1:12 it is, "as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God"; that is to say, there is a right that affords dignity to the saints. And the well in chapter 4 is to supply the refreshment needed in that position.

F.S.C. Would it be right to say that the Lord was the One who really drew the water in John 4?

J.T. He says, "the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life", John 4:14. That is magnificent!

C.H.H. Would the abundance be seen in Psalm 78? It says that the "waters gushed out" and "streams overflowed". The lavish way in which the Holy Spirit is ministered was seen when the rock was struck. "And he brought streams out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers", Psalm 78:16.

J.T. Quite so; "for they drank of a spiritual rock which followed them: now the rock was the Christ", 1 Corinthians 10:4. That is a remarkable thing; we must connect the Spirit with Christ. Christ and the Spirit are seen acting as one. And if we speak of Christ and the assembly we must have the thought of union in our minds, for it is the great end in view. We have the thought peculiarly set out in the types in Isaac and Rebecca.

S.J.M. So that the women said that Moses drew water abundantly for them and watered the flock.

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J.T. Just so; they discerned how great was the help that Moses afforded them in driving away the shepherds, and in drawing water abundantly.

S.W. Would the prophet Joel indicate that it was always in the mind of God that there should be this abundance? He says, "I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh".

J.T. Where that passage is quoted in Acts 2, it goes on to say, "your sons and your daughters shall prophesy". There is abundance. So that we should not be merely young men and young women, but formed in the greatness of Christ, the Spirit being active in us. "God giveth not the Spirit by measure". This is true as to the assembly. The assembly gets the Spirit without measure.

R.W.S. At what point in the history of the testimony was the Holy Spirit lost sight of?

J.T. I think that things began to wane at the time John wrote his last great writing, which is his gospel. I think he wrote the gospel as his last great production and the reason he wrote was that things had begun to wane. He says, "these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name", John 20:31. But then he says that if all were written, the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. That was the greatness of the ministry.

A.I. Though Moses drew water and watered the flocks, yet he was left behind by the women?

J.T. It just shows the paucity of feeling that often marks us, that we are neglectful of the rights of Christ; we are neglectful of Him very often, as they were neglectful of Moses.

D.McD. Does the priest of Midian realise that in speaking to his daughters?

J.T. I think he is a brother to be noticed. He becomes the father-in-law of Moses, and the word

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father-in-law might detract from him. He was only the father-in-law of Moses, but he was a good man. Chapter 18 shows that he was a man that could rule and teach others to rule, which is a great matter. So here it is said, "But Moses fled from before Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian. And he sat by the well. And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew, water and filled the troughs, to water their father's flock. And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses rose and helped them, and watered their flock", Exodus 2:15 - 17. He watered them abundantly, there was plenty.

J.T.Jr. It would seem that Reuel appreciated the man coming into view here. The man Moses was coming on to the horizon. There were seven daughters but no sons, evidently.

J.T. I think he is a greater man here in effect than he was later. In the book of Numbers he would not go with Moses to be eyes to Israel. He was not great enough for that, but he was great here. And we do well to take notice of a man when he is great and give him full credit.

C.H.H. Would these shepherds in any way set forth a hindering element that may at any time keep the saints from the enjoyment of the Holy Spirit? I thought that they correspond somewhat to the Philistines who stopped the wells that Abraham dug, and wondered if we may expect that kind of thing; that as the ministry of the Spirit is available there will be that which will seek to negate it.

J.T. There is something of that at the present time; but thank God it is diminishing continually. The truth is making headway, which you would expect when the Spirit has liberty. When the Spirit of God brings forward a man like Reuel with seven daughters, and Moses providing an abundance of water, we see that something is being done, and what is being done will

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reflect Christ -- Christ and the assembly are in the forefront. It is not so in the so-called denominations. But it is so where the Scriptures have their full place.

C.McL. Did Reuel discern the greatness of the man Moses?

J.T. Well, he no doubt did, to some extent, and, of course, he did later, too, but as we have said, he did not do too well afterwards. But there was really no other like Moses, in his writings and in his lawgiving. He was the lawgiver!

S.J.M. There is a word which says, "There is a river the streams whereof make glad the city of God", Psalm 46:4. That would strengthen your remark in relation to the Spirit. He makes way for Himself against all opposition.

J.T. He makes a way for Himself, but I think that the idea in Moses is that a way is made for the Spirit. He brings in the truth and the principles. The principles make way for the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. It comes out in a very striking way in Numbers 21 in relation to the well, because it says, "that is the well of which Jehovah spoke to Moses".

J.T. And the well was dug at the direction of the lawgiver. The lawgiver was Moses; a very remarkable thing.

J.T.Jr. And I was thinking that first of all Jehovah had spoken about it to Moses. It says, "that is the well of which Jehovah spoke to Moses, Assemble the people, and I will give them water. Then Israel sang this song, Rise up, well! sing unto it: Well which princes digged, which the nobles of the people hollowed out at the word of the lawgiver, with their staves". The lawgiver gave the directions for it.

J.T. That is the passage which the Lord has used to bring out this whole truth with which we are now engaged. It was a question of Jehovah speaking to Moses; and then Moses, being the lawgiver, would give

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laws governing the position; and then, finally, the singing, the service of God, with which we are engaged each Lord's day. That is the time for the singing. "I will sing with the spirit", the apostle says, 1 Corinthians 14:15.

F.N.W. Does not the Lord Jesus, in John 4, pursue divine principles to reach the service of God? He speaks of the water becoming a fountain in the believer, involving a subjective result in the woman; then He calls her Woman, and then, finally, He speaks of worshipping in spirit and truth.

J.T. That chapter is the parting of the ways, you might say, in the gospel of John, in the way that the service of God is brought in. "Neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem", and then, "the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers".

C.H.H. Would the last words of Moses indicate the spiritual character of his doctrine? He says, "My doctrine shall drop as rain, my speech flow down as dew, as small rain upon the tender herb, and as showers on the grass", Deuteronomy 32:2. The speech there is feminine.

J.T. Very good; that is at the end of the book of Deuteronomy, the last of the five books of Moses. He has not lost ground; he has maintained his freshness, which is a great thing in ministry.

J.T.Jr. So that his ministry was, in that sense, almost identical with the well. What he ministered was really from God. The reference to the well at the beginning of this great minister's life of service is remarkable. He sat by the well.

J.T. And the rain and the dew that he refers to in the passage quoted from Deuteronomy imply that his ministry was fresh. It is a question of freshness, I believe; that in ministering we keep our freshness; we do not grow dry.

G.H. The remark has been made that you cannot

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trace the source of a well. Would that suggest the inscrutability of the Person of the Spirit?

J.T. Very good; I would say that.

A.N.W. In John 4, the woman spoke of the well, but there is a difference between the well and the fountain. The Lord spoke of the fountain.

J.T. Just so; "a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life". The woman spoke of the well being deep, but the depth of this well is not of very great moment. "Every one who drinks of this water shall thirst again". It is a question of the power of the spring, or fountain, that springs up into everlasting life. In the type which we may later see in Achsah we have the upper and the nether springs.

D.P. Would the importance of the well in Midian be recognised as the centre of attraction on which the life of the flocks would depend?

J.T. Well; that would be typical of the Spirit. There is plenty of water. Moses drew of it abundantly. The idea is plenitude, and of course as we come to these meetings we become enlarged, so that there is not only increase of numbers, but there is also enlargement of persons, and the Spirit is the power of that enlargement.

T.E.H. The elders of Ephesus came over to Miletus, and were instructed by the beloved apostle. One of the things he said to them was, "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers", Acts 20:28. There must be constant recognition of the well, both in myself and in relation to service.

J.T. Well, just so; and then oversight; things are maintained on the principle of order. They were elders, you know, and they were called over to Paul, and what Paul had in his mind was that there should be order in what they were ministering. The Holy Spirit had made them ministers and overseers. The Holy Spirit had done

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that, showing how He takes care of things, because the word Paraclete means that He takes care of things; and He was doing it there in bringing those elders to see Paul.

J.T.Jr. The well really brings Moses into prominence and leads on to what we have about him in the next chapter.

J.T. Just so; the well is the very source of enlargement; and enlargement is seen in Moses.

R.W.S. Reuel inquired of his daughters, "why then have ye left the man behind?" Did the operation of the creed leave the Man behind? Ministry which came out twenty years ago bore on the sonship of Christ and has been enjoyed by the brethren. Now there is ministry bearing on another divine Person. Is there something in that, do you think?

J.T. Tell us more of what is in your mind.

R.W.S. Well, I think it is remarkable that adjustment came in first as to the sonship of Christ, showing us that the creed has bound us up and that we really had not appreciated the true greatness of Christ. In that way the Man had been left behind. Now, attention is being called to the Spirit, at a time when we need to know the love of the Spirit and the communion of the Spirit; indeed, all the present help of the Spirit.

J.T. A dear brother in New Zealand wrote to me about a month or six weeks ago about that very thing, the order in which the truth has come out; and that the ministry of the Spirit has come in at the present time as needed, in proper order. And it means enlargement. If we make room for the Spirit. He will enlarge us.

J.T.Jr. Reuel asks, "Why are ye come so soon, today?" verse 18. We might apply that in the sense that we have been helped all this time and we have not really recognised who it is that helped us.

J.T. Quite so; very good.

C.H.H. Would enlargement and progression be seen

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in the five sisters, the daughters of Zelophehad? After the response to the Spirit in chapter 21 you get those five sisters who were concerned about their inheritance; they appreciated their inheritance.

J.T. That is a good connection; I think it is excellent; the five sisters, daughters of Zelophehad, and the seven sisters, daughters of Reuel. Jehovah said to Moses concerning the five, that they spoke right. It is a fine thing to get five sisters speaking aright. You do not see it much in ordinary things. There were five of them, the daughters of Zelophehad, and Jehovah said that they said the right thing; they wanted the inheritance.

S.J.M. There is also the suggestion in Acts of Philip's four daughters who prophesied.

J.T. That is a good wholesome number. They prophesied. That is the way they spoke. They spoke prophetically -- a wonderful thing! No doubt their prophecy came in at that time, as needed; it would be a prophetic word.

W.A.T. And I suppose we could refer also to Job and his three daughters. It says, "And he called the name of the first, Jemimah; and the name of the second, Keziah; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch", Job 42:14.

J.T. Very good. I had not thought of the suggestion before of those three women, and the four women, and the five women, and the seven women. I think the references are excellent for us to think over and consider what they mean.

A.N.W. The passage in job goes on to say, "in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job; and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren".

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THE ASSEMBLY

Genesis 1:27, 28; Proverbs 31:10 - 12; Revelation 21:9 - 12

I have in mind to speak about the assembly, the assembly -- of which Christ is Head. It goes on into eternity, and for the moment it takes the form of an order of things in which God sets out His thoughts about the coming age; but whatever it may be that it sets out, the assembly is greater; and, therefore, it can be safely employed to set out other things. It has such intelligence. Indeed, it is said that the all-varied wisdom of God is set out in it and the angels are looking on to see this. Angels have intelligence, but not as the persons in the assembly have. There are things that we know well, that they desire to look into; so that God has furnished Himself with this wonderful assembly to represent Him. No other family in all the families of God is equal to the position the assembly has, and throughout all generations of the age of ages this assembly will carry on the service of God. God is to be worshipped in it. There is no end to it at all. It is constituted great enough for all these services, and it is not to terminate as Israel will terminate. Israel as a nation is not viewed in that way, though persons who form it will, of course, continue for ever. The assembly is always a creature, but next to divine Persons in importance; not comparable to them, of course, but still next to them in intimacy and love. This great assembly commands our respect, and inasmuch as we are of it, it commands our minds. Our intelligences are called upon and all the time we can devote to it, so as to understand it. As Paul said, one who knew it best of men, of creatures: that "ye may understand my knowledge". There was at least one who knew. It is just a question if there was any like him, but at the same time, God is seeking to bring us all into those things which Paul was seeking

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to set out. He was the minister of the assembly; he only was. No other is said to be that, but Paul, and he laboured with the brethren in his time to lead them into the truth of it. As he said, "in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God", Ephesians 3:18 - 20.

Well now, I desire to begin with Genesis 1 and to show how the idea of the assembly was there in the mind of God in that day of freshness. The verses I have read tell us plainly the facts. "And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over every animal that moveth on the earth", Genesis 1:27, 28. We can see the Spirit of God in writing these verses through Moses had in mind something that had not yet been disclosed. Indeed it is said formally that throughout all ages it was concealed in God, but it was there. The idea was there. And so the Spirit of God has in mind the male and female. There is no suggestion of inferiority of the one to the other. The facts show that the man was head of the woman; he is that, as Christ is Head of the assembly. These things are shown in the facts, but, nevertheless, it says in Verse 28, "And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion".

The word dominion is to be noted, and that the two are blessed. God begins everything with blessing in these matters, even after the flood too. What God likes, having created it particularly, He blesses; and here they were to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the

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earth; the word replenish means fill. The subjugation of the earth comes in after the filling of it. It is not to be filled only with cows and sheep and horses, and other creatures of that kind, all of which were created with Adam. It is not to be filled with these only. It is to be filled with creatures of a kind, persons peculiarly interesting to God. There were these two, and they were to fill the earth. That filling would control all else. That is the principle. So that the subjugation is ensured in the filling. Filling must be not only physical but moral. That is to say, the order of being that is filling the earth has a moral importance. Cattle have not. The spirit of man goes up. That indicates at once the superiority of man. God breathed into man the breath of life; it was an intimate matter, and man became a living soul. He was to fill the earth, he and his partner. It was the principle set out in these two; they were to fill the earth and subdue it. That will come about in a coming day, that the earth will be filled with men according to Christ; the new heavens and the new earth.

I am making these remarks so as to impress our souls with this great matter, as far as I may be able. I am comforted with the thought that many know it in measure as I do. The brethren are coming to know it and they are coming to value it, and they are coming to see that they belong to it, and that as God looks upon us He values us; He clothes us with His own thoughts. We shall grow in the knowledge of them, but He clothes us with His own thoughts, His own perfect thoughts, and that is a great comfort, that the thing must be regarded abstractly as perfect, as God has it in His mind. And so, dear brethren, it is very comforting to think of an earth filled with men like Jesus. All else will be removed. The Father knows them, and He would instruct us as His children, first as to ourselves, as to one another, and then as to all the others,

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for the earth will be filled, the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness will dwell. It will dwell there. Men will be there. Let us understand this, dear brethren, that angels are not taken into account in this matter of formation, and the work of perfecting. They are not said to be heirs. Their place is to be servants of the saints. Wonderful thought. Wonderful they are, and mighty. How wonderfully God has provided for us. Everything is for our sakes, says the apostle, "all are yours; and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's".

So as I said, the thing begins here and it widens out as you go downstream, and we find that woman retains her place in the government of God. God is not allowing her to be submerged by man. She is retaining her place. God sees to that right down the line to the book of Revelation. I desire, dear brethren, that we may seek to maintain this line. Be in it. It is what God is doing. He is in it and it is going through. And so woman is not submerged. The feminine idea is preserved and God sees to it that it is preserved according to His counsel. It is not to be lost; it is to go through into eternity in the assembly, in a great administrative capacity.

I was thinking of Vashti, a queen. She had her own friends. The women were with her; the men were separate. That will not do. Mischief will happen if we have that sort of thing. We want the sisters to stand by their husbands, co-operate with them, take their advice and give advice too, as Sarah did. In all the glory of that realm that is depicted in the book of Esther she was queen, but she lost the queen-ship and another took her place, a better than she. That is God's way. If He has to discard somebody He does not leave a void. She is displaced. Her place is filled. As the vessels in Jeremiah's time; he made another that pleased him, another vessel; the first was marred and rejected. And

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so Esther had a wonderful place, not only negatively or passively, but actively. She fills out a wonderful place according to what I am saying, according to what Scripture teaches. She supported Mordecai. The Jews were carried through. That is to say, the people of God viewed abstractly, clothed with divine thoughts, were carried through. Haman would destroy them and there are many like that. We are not to destroy a weak brother for whom Christ died. Whoever he may be, administration will preserve him, will protect him; and, of course, we are to be helpers of one another in these matters, and particularly to preserve the feminine idea. And so, Esther became a queen. She was better than her predecessor and, therefore, she superseded Vashti.

What a sister we have in Phoebe, for instance, and in several others that I might mention, as Lydia. Hence it is that great place is given to sisters in the assembly at Philippi. The royal line was there. Those women that worked with me, says Paul. He sent his regards to them. They were important in his eyes and in his mind, particularly Lydia. He went to Lydia when he was leaving Philippi. It was as if he said, Lydia, I trust you to look after things; not that the Spirit would leave anyone in charge, but Paul trusted Lydia. Who is she? The Lord had put it into her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul, the man who would speak the right things. Follow him; listen to him. And she did. The apostle went there when he was leaving.

In Revelation 21 you have the number twelve greatly stressed. The use of numbers as language in the Scriptures is a convenient way of teaching, and a way that does not take up great space. But there is the host of publishers. God gives humanity the Bible and John alludes to it in saying that if all were written that could be written the world itself would not contain the books, but God has contented Himself to write just that and it is called the Bible; there is no other really; although

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the world may be filled with things about it, there is no other one but it; and it stands. God has been pleased to make it small, to limit it, as the ark was small, but how complete, how infinite! The Scriptures really are infinite. They run into the idea of the word of God. "All things are naked and laid bare to his eyes, with whom we have to do", Hebrews 4:13. I do not say that allusion is exactly to Scripture, but it is the word of God, and the Scriptures represent the word of God. And so it is that I was referring to numbers, that the numeral twelve is pressed into this chapter I have read, and how glorious it is in the language used and the thing alluded to. First of all, "And there came one of the seven angels which had had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues, and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city. Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone; having a great and high wall; having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel", Revelation 21:9 - 12.

How few are the words: the holy Jerusalem, the bride, the Lamb's wife! Think of all these expressions. She is the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. So that we have now come, dear brethren, to the great climax of the feminine idea; beginning in the first of Genesis. It was conceived long before the world was formed, and it is as if God would say, It has just come down now complete. It is a heavenly thing. Its origin is heaven from the 'Father, Spring and Source of blessing'. It is from the Father. He made a marriage for His Son. John says, "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", John 3:29. He does not say who

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the bride is. No. She was concealed in heaven and we belong to it. Everyone who is a christian here should just take it in and learn from it; think of it and pray about it, for you belong to that. All these other great personages that I have alluded to are just figures of this great thing, and what I am speaking about now is not simply a type. It is the thing itself, and it is presented here as measuring twelve thousand stadia, and then it is a cube. Pardon me for just referring for a moment to the measurements. It is said, "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that spoke with me had a golden reed as a measure, that he might measure the city, and its gates, and its walls. And the city lies four-square, and its length is as much as the breadth. And he measured the city with the reed -- twelve thousand stadia: the length and the breadth and height of it are equal". The cube measure means that the assembly is a solid thing, a substantial thing composed of persons, all of them precious as purchased by the blood of Christ and wrought in and wrought out and adorned by the Spirit of God. They are going into eternity and will retain their character too, the character of administration. God would write the word administration on our hearts. He would indeed. It is so necessary, because the world has gone astray, the nations have gone astray. There is no wisdom there at all. If it were not for the sovereign ways of God in holding things there would be chaos. Unless He took certain out of the way, it would not be possible to exist, but God is taking care of things. There is nothing outside of the assembly that is properly regulated, not one thing. But then is it regulated as in our hands? That is the point I am coming to and seeking to impress upon us. God is saying to us. You take that and look after it, whatever it be. If it has to be adjusted, you do it. The Lord is saying that to us. He is giving us to do

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it. You have heard enough to do it. Are we to be ever learning and never come to a knowledge of the truth? Something comes up today and we have heard it many a time, and yet we do the wrong thing right away, as if the wrong thing were the order of the day. It is not the order of the day. The right thing is the order of the day, and there is a way of finding out the right. So it is that we rightly have our care meetings, but then the question is whether we have men of wisdom. The word of wisdom must be there. It is intended to be there. And so, "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety", Proverbs 11:14. It is well that brothers should come together but then let us see that we learn wisdom. Wisdom is the principle thing.

Well now, I would like to say something about the virtuous woman before stopping. Her price is above rubies. Who can find her? One is often inclined to say, Where is she? Where is she to be found? The writer goes on and he writes about her as if she did exist. That is the way you come to it, that the thing is there. It is in yourself. And so you find a beautiful thing that the wise man says which will fill out what I am saying about the virtuous woman. "Who can find a woman of worth? for her price is far above rubies. The heart of her husband confideth in her, and he shall have no lack of spoil". We may regard it as abstract for the moment. But he goes on to say, "She doeth him good, and not evil, all the days of her life". And then in verse 15, "And she riseth while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household". She giveth them meat. We have to challenge ourselves now as to where we can get it, but she gives it. "And the day's work to her maidens". That would mean she assigns the work they are to do, which is important. And then again it is said, "She perceiveth that her earning is good; her lamp goeth not out by night". She can stay up all night if necessary. That is another point: that we have to sacrifice if we

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are to carry on assembly work, because this is a picture of the assembly; it is described by the wise man, and he treats it as if it were existent. That is the way I think we ought to reach it. Learn it first in the abstract and then look in and see if we have any part in it at all. Why not? It is ourselves. We belong to it. And so as I said before, "Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land". That is an important thing to bear in mind, and the other things that go with it. "The heart of her husband confideth in her", and then it is said, "Give her of the fruit of her hands, and let her own works praise her in the gates". That is to say, she can be spoken of by herself. You say, That sister is a good wife, but then she is more than that. She is something in herself, her own works. She reflects her husband's works, but her own works will praise her in the gates. That is the one word I would just leave with you, that the sisters are to be praised themselves. She follows on the line of trustworthiness. Her husband shines in the gates, but she has her own works, what she is herself. She can be praised by herself.

Well, how important that is in this matter of administration, because this whole chapter, I might say, is administration; how the wife looks after things in the absence of her husband; the assembly looks after things in the absence of Christ.

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THE ASSEMBLY (8)

Exodus 18:1 - 12; Revelation 3:10 - 11; Revelation 12:13 - 17

J.T. We noticed in our previous reading that Jethro had given Zipporah to Moses as his wife. The passages before us now show how provision is made to preserve her from the trials which were about to come on Egypt, and also that in the New Testament we have similar provision made for the saints when danger exists. The Lord promises to keep the saints at Philadelphia; that is, the assembly, from the hour of trial which is about to come upon the earth to try all those that dwell upon the earth. Revelation 12:17 contains a similar provision for the Jewish remnant: "And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus". So that these passages in Revelation are intended to enlarge our minds as to prophetic matters and give us to see how the assembly is to be kept out of the tribulation, and to show how the Jewish remnant is to be kept out of the way of evil from the dragon, prior to the millennium. Another point that may help in understanding these matters is the reference to the mountain of God: "And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, came to Moses with his sons and his wife into the wilderness, where he encamped at the mountain of God", Exodus 18:5. The mountain of God would be a place of strength; as if Moses resorted thither. That is a point for us, as to where we are to find strength in our service. If the hill of God comes into the hands of the Philistines we are at a great disadvantage, but then it was not in their hands here. It was in the hands of Moses, we might say.

R.W.S. Does Exodus 18 involve what Stephen speaks of as "the assembly in the wilderness"?

J.T. The assembly in the wilderness would be more Jewish; the allusion, at this time, is to Zipporah

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as typical of the assembly of which we form part.

A.B.P. Do you have in mind that Moses sent his wife back to Midian to preserve her from the judgments that were coming upon Egypt?

J.T. That is what I understand; showing the divine care that is exercised over the saints in view of what might damage us physically or morally. There is much of that kind of thing just now; some are clinging to certain associations which are sure to cause moral damage.

F.S.C. It says that Moses led the flock to the mountain of God.

J.T. That would show the shepherdly spirit he had; he was presently to take the nation of Israel under his hand as a shepherd.

A.N.W. The second son, Eliezer, comes to light here. Gershom is mentioned in chapter 2, but here it says, "and the name of the other, Eliezer, For the God of my father has been my help, and has delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh", verse 4.

J.T. The first son was named Gershom; for he said, I have been a sojourner in a foreign land; but now it is a matter of divine help.

J.T.Jr. Eliezer's name is not mentioned until help has been experienced. Both sons were there, according to chapter 4: 20, but Eliezer's name is not mentioned until this chapter, stressing, I suppose, the help of God which had come in.

J.T. And the assembly, as we speak of it now, and, of course, we can only speak of it humbly, involves the help of God. These are very important matters to keep in our minds.

R.W.S. Why did Moses send Zipporah back?

J.T. Well, it does not say, as far as I know; there is just an allusion: "... after he had sent her back". No doubt the allusion would be to some provision he had made for her protection, as we have been saying.

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R.W.S. It would involve consideration for her?

J.T. Well, exactly. Moses evidently was a true husband. In the early part of the book Zipporah was complaining a little. She called Moses a bloody husband. But he is looking after her here. I think that is the idea, that he is a true husband.

W.A.T. Even in that reference in chapter 4: 25, "A bloody husband", the footnote in the New Translation gives the meaning, 'Bridegroom'. Evidently she had to admit, even in testing times, that he displayed bridegroom features. And will not the Lord Jesus retain the bridegroom character for ever?

J.T. Quite so; He will retain the bridegroom character; it will not wane with Him. And the assembly will retain bridal features. She is seen coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband.

R.W.S. Does Exodus 17:6 show, typically, that Christ has suffered that we might have the Spirit? But Moses, in sending Zipporah back, is typical of Christ shielding the assembly from suffering? There was no protection for Christ; the Rock was smitten that the water might flow.

S.W. Does not the end of Matthew's gospel suggest the protective side also? The Lord is viewed there as with the disciples. He says, "behold, I am with you all the days, until the completion of the age".

J.T. Quite so; He is not said to go up in Matthew. He is seen here in care for His own.

J.A.P. Would you distinguish between the sufferings that the assembly should go through and those from which it will be preserved?

J.T. Well, there are sufferings. We read in the Colossian epistle that the apostle Paul, a man of great spiritual affection and power, would fill up the sufferings of Christ: "I fill up that which is behind of the tribulations of Christ", Colossians 1:24. It is not stated who was behind in it, but the thought is to fill up that which is

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behind of the tribulations of Christ. It is a noble thought in the sense of sacrifice; others should do it, but he would take it on personally.

Ques. In the Song of Solomon it says, "Who is this, she that cometh up from the wilderness" chapter 3: 6. Would that apply to the assembly, or does it link on with Israel?

J.T. It is an Israelitish position; it typifies Israel leaning upon her Beloved, but we apply it to the assembly; we are entitled to do that. All Scripture is profitable and we are at liberty to use it; but, of course, we should use it intelligently.

A.P. What is the teaching in the frequent repetition of the words "Moses' father-in-law"?

J.T. Well; it is a question of spiritual understanding as to that. Is it a question of what Jethro was in that relationship or what the greatness of Moses added to him? We have the case of Peter's wife's mother. She was Peter's mother-in-law, and we are not sure whether she contributed much until the Lord had to do with her. She appears to have been a complainer, but nevertheless she was healed. The Lord touched her, and she rose up and served them; she served the brethren. She was changed through the touch of the Lord. She not only served the Lord, but the brethren. People often say that they are doing things for the Lord, but doing things for the brethren goes with that.

A.B.P. Does this setting have the service of God in mind?

J.T. Well, I would think so, but at this point it is a question of what Jethro was; he is called Jethro here, and the fact that he is Moses' father-in-law is mentioned about seven or eight times. He is emphasised in that relation, and happily and profitably in it. On both sides it is a happy season, so that it says in verse 12: "And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God; and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law

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in the presence of God". So that, whilst he was Moses' father-in-law, it was a happy relation.

A.B.P. Verse 7 stresses the idea of good relationships. Moses went out to meet Jethro and he kissed his father-in-law and they asked for each other's welfare. Would that not suggest that the most difficult relationships can be held in proper balance as we make way for the service of God?

J.T. Yes, grace suffices for everything, whatever the difficulties may be. The Lord said to Paul, "My grace suffices thee".

V.C.L. Would the destruction of Amalek in the previous chapter make way for this grace to flow so freely and happily?

J.T. Very good; I would say that. Much could be said as to the point where this chapter comes in, but we can also see that Moses needed instruction here, and Jethro was able to give it to him; Jethro was morally greater in the position, because it says, "Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God". He became an active priest in the presence of one of the greatest servants that we have. Jethro became a priest unto God; and Moses and Aaron were there with the elders of Israel, fully showing their appreciation of this man. He was rightly selected of God at this juncture.

J.T.Jr. Jethro was sympathetic from the beginning. Immediately after Jehovah spoke to Moses, Jethro said to Moses that he should go in peace; that he should go back to Egypt; showing how fully he was with the mind of God in what was going on.

E.E.H. What is there in the fact that Zipporah is left in the background here? Jethro seems to hold the prominent place here.

J.T. Well, it is to emphasise what we are saying; that God is honouring this man. He is taken up, a seemingly providential man, who augments the position;

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it is a brother coming in at a time when he is needed.

C.A.M. Would you say that the two sons of Moses are so prominent, and the meanings of their names are given, because they were to have a place in the service of God?

J.T. Well, they augmented the position; the position included them. I think we had that recently in the eighth chapter of Ezekiel; what is stated there is not simply of persons, but of features of the position; and these two young men are features of the position.

C.A.M. The fact that they were sons would suggest that his feelings would be livingly carried on; these features were not to be forgotten.

J.T. They had a place in the testimony afterwards, but they are here at this point. Things are grouped together here and we are to see what this and that mean and get help from it.

A.N.W. It looks as though the change of name from Reuel to Jethro signified a closer relationship to Jehovah. The name Jethro carries the suggestion of Jehovah. And he seems to be much more in line here than in the previous chapter. The verse which you read is extraordinary; the presence of God being referred to: "And Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt-offering, and sacrifices for God; and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law in the presence of God". That seems to be a great advance from the previous chapter.

J.T. After Eliezer is mentioned, whose name is identified with the exercise, The God of my father has been my help, and has delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh, it says, "Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, came to Moses with his sons and his wife into the wilderness, where he encamped at the mountain of God. And he sent word to Moses: I, thy father-in-law Jethro ..." (he is identifying himself in the most striking way, as the Lord says, "I, Jesus", and Paul says, "I, Paul")

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"I, thy father-in-law Jethro, am come to thee, and thy wife" (not my daughter, but thy wife), "and her two sons with her". That is where they should be. And then it says, "And Moses went out to meet his father-in-law and did obeisance, and kissed him". Now I think that is a very beautiful picture!

Rem. There were right relations between Moses and his father-in-law.

J.T. Well, they were leading men; and I would like to impress the need for right relations upon all of us who in any measure are leading brothers; and I might say that if we have not leaders we are sure to go wrong; we must have leaders. So that there are right relations between these two great men, Jethro and Moses. It is a very important matter to see that good relations are maintained in every meeting.

W.A.T. In regard to their eating in the presence of God, in verse 12, does the title God refer to the three divine Persons?

J.T. Well, the one idea is stressed; that God is one and His name one, and that there is no other God beside Him.

W.A.T. Do we today, in the Supper, have the Holy Spirit with us?

J.T. I would certainly say so.

W.A.T. Will you help, please, as to the place of the Holy Spirit personally?

J.T. Well. He is there; He must be there; He is in charge of everything here in a subjective sense; everything is in His hands. There is the one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. And if we sin, we have an Advocate with the Father. But that is in heaven. The Holy Spirit is not that Advocate; He is here on earth to look after our affairs here, and the affairs of God, too. And, of course, the Lord's supper must come into that; the Spirit must have part in that; He is the power for it.

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A.R. It has been said that the Spirit retires at a certain point in the meeting and the Lord Jesus takes on leadership. I would like to know what you would say about that.

J.T. The Spirit is here all the time.

A.R. And has His part in the service during the entire meeting?

J.T. Quite so; if it be the second part of the service, for example, He would have part in that for He is the Spirit of sonship. He is in the matter all the time.

R.W.S. Does the title "the Lord the Spirit", or "Lord Spirit" indicate how He is with us in the early part of the meeting?

J.T. I think so; it says in 2 Corinthians 3:17: "Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", and that passage ends with the words, "... even as by the Lord the Spirit". It relates to the service of God, especially the Lord's supper.

Rem. The Holy Spirit would be with us from the beginning to the end of the meeting.

J.T. Well, certainly; the Spirit never retires as far as I see, nor will He retire, even in heaven. Why should He? He is God.

A.N.W. It is stated that we worship by the Spirit of God.

C.A.M. You referred to the Spirit's place in the latter part of the morning meeting as that of the Spirit of sonship. I think that is particularly helpful, as well as what has just been said about the Lord the Spirit in the earlier part.

J.T. Yes; "... even as by the Lord the Spirit". He is the power for every part of the service.

S.J.M. Does not the Spirit have full control on Lord's Day? It says of John that he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day.

J.T. Well, I would not be sure about that, because it is the Lord's day and the Lord's supper, you know;

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it is not the Father's supper, nor the Spirit's supper; it is the Lord's supper. One Person is particularly in mind and that is the Lord.

A.N.W. We cannot say, "Lord Jesus", without the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Well, that is what is says: "No one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit".

Ques. How should we regard the scripture: "For through him we have both access by one Spirit to the Father", Ephesians 2:18? Would that apply to our approach to the Father in the morning meeting?

J.T. Yes; the Father is in mind. He is the objective there. "Through him" (that is Christ), "we have both access by one Spirit to the Father". The objective is the Father.

A.B.P. Is it not helpful to see that all three divine Persons have their part in relation to the service on Lord's day morning? If one Person in the Godhead is addressed, the Others have delight in that, also.

J.T. Well, quite so. They are in infinite unity; the unity of divine Persons is infinite. When the apostle refers to the Lord's supper, it is the Person of the Lord Jesus that is in mind. It is a question of having discernment as to the name we are using, and to whom it refers. The reference to the Lord's supper has the Lord Jesus in mind. He has instituted it; it is in relation to Him.

Ques. Does the Spirit come with us to the meeting?

J.T. Well, we do not come to the meeting collectively, the collective idea takes expression in the meeting room. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, so that He is with us always in that sense, but when we are in the meeting room to partake of the Lord's supper, we have the collective idea, and the Spirit is with us collectively.

T.N.W. And is there something beyond His being in us as gathered? Can we take account of Him by Himself?

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J.T. Surely; He is a divine Person. He is with us collectively; not that He is separated from us; there is His own personal dignity and greatness. He is there.

R.W.S. Is He with us first, before the Lord comes to us?

J.T. Well, yes, I should say that. The Lord comes; but we are not told that the Spirit comes. The Lord says, "I am coming to you". It is particularly the Lord Himself that is in mind there; and He comes for us, too. "The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God, shall descend". That is Himself! But, of course, He comes to us now by the Spirit. I would expect the Spirit to prepare us for the Lord coming in.

S.W. At what time does the transformation take place? You have quoted from 2 Corinthians 3"Now the Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit".

J.T. Well, there it is: "the Lord the Spirit" does that. The transformation is by Him.

S.W. Yes, it is by Him, but I wondered at what particular part of the meeting this takes place.

J.T. Well, I believe that particular passage applies to the celebration of the Lord's supper. The transformation comes in with the presence of the Lord, and, of course, the presence of the Spirit too. Divine Persons bring in the transformation.

A.N.W. Would you say that the Lord would not come to us apart from the fact that the Spirit is with us? Is the Spirit not the power by which we apprehend Him?

J.T. Yes; the Spirit is here; the Lord comes in the power of the Spirit. The question whether the Lord comes Himself, corporeally, arose some years ago. The

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answer is that at one time He did. He was seen by the disciples for forty days; He was there corporeally. So that when He came to His own at Emmaus and at Jerusalem, it was the Lord; He came in corporeally. He sat down with them and took a meal with them. That was not by the Spirit, it was by His own power. But then all that has gone, for He has gone into heaven. That is the position. So that we do not get the same kind of visitations as the disciples did then; if He comes to us now He comes in the power of the Spirit, I would say.

C.A.M. Referring again to 2 Corinthians 3, we have reference to the Spirit of the Lord, and then it goes on to say, "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord ..." Is it in that way that we apprehend the Lord's glory -- at that moment?

J.T. The transformation arises in that sense: "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory". So that the Lord Jesus is chiefly in mind as to the transformation. But the Spirit's power is there too.

C.A.M. It makes it very wonderful, I think.

J.T. It is very wonderful. But we are to regard it as an actual practical matter which we can reach on the Lord's day.

A.N.W. The Lord Jesus is before us objectively in that way, and the Spirit with a subjective authority to regulate us?

J.T. I would go with that.

D.P.C. In the service in the assembly does the Spirit augment the service to the other divine Persons?

J.T. Very good; He augments the service, but never have in mind that He is less than other divine Persons. If He is augmenting the service, He is doing it of Himself; He is not obliged to do it.

C.H.H. I was thinking of the Lord's word about the

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Spirit of truth guiding us. Moses, in his song in Exodus 15, speaks of being guided by Jehovah's strength unto the abode of His holiness. It says further, "Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, the place that thou, Jehovah, hast made thy dwelling, the Sanctuary, Lord, that thy hands have prepared". Are not the Spirit's activities thus seen as leading us from the mount of God in the wilderness to the mount in the land?

J.T. Well, I think there is a good deal of instruction there which could be opened up for us, especially for ministry at the Lord's supper.

R.W.S. Should the Spirit have a place in our affections in assembly service along with the Father and the Son?

J.T. I think so. They are the three Persons of the Godhead; but then you would also take account of what They say of Themselves. For instance, the Son is not said to be sent from heaven by the Father. He is sent as here. But the Spirit was sent from heaven.

A.N.W. We can only have one Person in mind when we think of Him who gave Himself for the assembly.

A.A.T. Do we know divine Persons outside of the economy?

J.T. I do not think we are capable of that.

A.A.T. Well, as I understand it, in the economy there is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; but divine Persons cannot be limited to the economy, can They? Our capacity to know divine Persons is limited to the economy.

J.T. They are known in the economy. That is the only way we can know them, because that is the way They have been pleased to reveal Themselves. The economy is a comforting and a very instructive word.

C.A.M. Economy is an excellent word, but it is not just connected with time, is it? In a sense, it is eternal. We sometimes connect or confuse the words economy

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and dispensation; but this thought is beyond that, is it not?

J.T. Well, divine Persons have come into certain relations, and it looks as though They remain in them. That seems to be the way matters stand since the incarnation; the incarnation is the turning point of everything. Everything must turn on that; the Word became flesh. There is a tangible thought before you, that Man is God -- God Himself -- the true God and eternal life.

R.W.S. You have spoken of not limiting divine Persons. Can they be limited to the economy into which They have come?

J.T. Well, we never can limit Them; it is a question of what They do of Themselves. Speaking reverentially it is a question of what divine Persons do Themselves. They are sovereign in their actions.

A.N.W. We can approach Them freely in the economy, but beyond that we simply know that God dwells in light unapproachable, whom no man hath seen nor can see.

J.T. That is good.

A.B.P. The limitations are with us.

J.T. That is right; the limitations are with us; they are not with divine Persons.

G.H. If the Lord Jesus were pleased to do so, He could come in amongst us in a corporeal way.

J.T. Well, if He was pleased to do it, yes; and He will come corporeally when He comes for us. That is a most specific way to state it. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with archangel's voice; He will come Himself. Well, that will be corporeal. We shall see Him then. But He is not coming to us corporeally now. He did it during the forty days at the beginning, and Paul's words would indicate that He did it after that time, but He is not doing it now, so far as our observations go.

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B.W. It says in 2 Corinthians 3, "Now the Lord is the Spirit". Does that refer to the way the Lord Jesus comes in?

J.T. No; "the Lord the Spirit", refers to the Holy Spirit; not to the Lord Jesus. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty", that is the Holy Spirit.

D.McD. 'Lord' is a title that may be used of the Spirit?

J.T. That is right. That helps us as to how to address Him. It gives us latitude because it is an additional form or title by which we may address Him.

C.H.H. Would verse 12 of our chapter be a moral basis for administration? Would it be essential that something of the mount of God be understood before we qualify to take on administration? I was thinking of the advice of Jethro to Moses, and the details that he gives as to how the people of God should be rightly cared for and rightly judged through overseership and eldership, but this spiritual position of the mount of God must be understood before that can be taken on.

J.T. You have in mind that the mountain of God qualifies us? What do you mean by that?

C.H.H. I was thinking of the nearness to God and the understanding of God's mind which are connected with that position. The question of administration comes up right after this in what Jethro said to Moses, from the 13th verse of the chapter.

J.T. Yes; I see; that, of course, is a subject by itself which we deliberately left out of our consideration. But you have in mind that one has to understand the hill of God as a preliminary to administration?

C.H.H. Yes; I was thinking of the men of Issachar, the two hundred chief men who knew what Israel ought to do.

J.T. Well, that is right, I would say that. But I would not confine that to the idea of the hill of God -- that the hill of God qualifies us, because the Spirit is the

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agency by which we are instructed; He teaches us all things, the Spirit guides us into all the truth. Therefore, whilst young men and young sisters have to observe what others do, and learn from others, they are to learn by themselves; the Scriptures will help them, and the Spirit will help them, to know what they should do; because many do not know what to do.

W.A.T. Referring again to the order in the morning meeting, after we have addressed the Father, it is not orderly to address the Lord in worship, is it?

J.T. I think it is awkward and confusing. If we go on to the Father we should proceed on that line, because the great end is to reach God; that God may be all in all. It is a question of whether we are instructed. It is said in Acts 2:42, "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers". So that we have an indication in that passage of how things are to be done. It is a question of the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, and then the breaking of bread, and prayers. We are going on with these things now. The apostles are not with us, but it is the same thing, in principle, and we are going on with the breaking of bread and prayers.

A.R. When we speak to God, are the three divine Persons involved?

J.T. That would depend upon the facts. In 1 Corinthians 8:6 it says, "to us there is one God, the Father". That is not the three Persons, it is the Father. And then it goes on to say, "... and one Lord, Jesus Christ"; that is another Person.

A.R. I had more in mind, 1 Corinthians 15:28: "... that God may be all in all".

J.T. Well, we have to go by the context. Contextual consideration is one of the most important things in dealing with the truth. The context helps; it affords instruction.

S.J.M. What did Moses mean in Psalm 90 when

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he said, "from eternity to eternity thou art God"?

J.T. Well, what did Moses understand? That is an example of the need for contextual dealing. What did Moses understand? I do not think that he would understand what we know now, when he said, "from eternity to eternity thou art God". He would mean God in the sense in which he used that word. And that would be in relation to one of the Persons; the One whom we call Father. But the title Father is not used by him in that sense at all. I think we should get hold of these things because it is very important that we should be intelligent as to the names we apply to divine Persons.

R.W.S. Will you say a little more about the Spirit in the morning meeting?

J.T. Well, if we speak to the Lord Jesus or to the Father it should be as helped by the Holy Spirit, but then He is to be regarded personally. We go by the Scriptures and we are kept right. So that, if the Father and the Son are spoken of more frequently than the Spirit, then it is well that we are regulated by that.

R.W.S. So that a climax to the early part of the meeting would be the glory of the Lord?

J.T. That is what we have been saying. It is the glory of the Lord Jesus that is in mind.

R.W.S. I think that helps to balance things as to the service.

A.A.T. In Luke 22 the Spirit seems to be in mind, figuratively, in the master of the house. Is He in charge right through the service?

J.T. I think it is a question of understanding; "the Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. That is how we get at the truth.

L.W. When would we experience abstraction in the morning meeting?

J.T. Well, it is a question of whether we can reach it, the matter of state enters into it. But it is well to

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look into the word and get its full meaning. The word abstract is not found in Scripture, but the idea is in Scripture, very fully.

A.B.P. Is it important that throughout the morning meeting there should be a sensitiveness with us so that the Spirit may direct our thoughts, that we may be prompted by the Spirit and kept in line with what is proceeding?

J.T. Just so.

A.B.P. Is there not a danger with us of having something in our minds and retaining it beyond the period when it would be properly expressed.

J.T. Well, I think there is a good deal in that, not only in relation to the morning meeting, but generally. I believe we are in a learning time, now. I never knew of a time that was more of a learning time than the present one, especially in regard of the Spirit.

F.H.L. When addressing God at the end of the service, is it not proper to do so in the name of the Lord Jesus?

J.T. That is what Scripture says.

F.H.L. It is proper to carry that formula right through the service?

J.T. I think it is.

R.W.S. The economy involves that all is in the name of the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Of course, if you address divine Persons, you are addressing God, and you would say in the name of the Lord Jesus. That is a formula that runs right through, because God has intended to use that name. "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue confess ... to God the Father's glory", Philippians 2:10.

A.A.T. Is it because He is the Mediator?

J.T. Well, it is because He was so lowly and because He suffered: "Wherefore also God highly exalted him". God is honouring Him. And the same is true of the

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Spirit. God is honouring Him. The Lord said: "but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming one", Matthew 12:32. Well, that is because He has taken such a lowly place.

C.H.H. So that when we address the Lord Jesus Himself we do so in His own name?

J.T. Well, quite so; we would do it in His own name; exactly.

J.T.Jr. Would not the allusion to "the same Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 12:9 and "one Spirit" in Ephesians 2:18 help us in regard to the way things are reached? It is a question of unity. The 'same Spirit' would imply that all the brethren who serve are moving to the same end, and the 'one Spirit' that unity has been arrived at amongst us in relation to the service of God.

J.T. You are making a point of the words, same and one. Perhaps you could say more.

J.T.Jr. Well, I thought we arrived at things intelligently by the Spirit. It is the 'same Spirit' in the operation of effectual ministry, and it is the 'one Spirit' operating in the body in approach, through Christ, to the Father. Practical unity amongst us enables us to reach the great heights that are in mind in the epistle to the Ephesians.

J.T. Quite so; the use of right words is important -- indeed, of prime importance in these matters.

S.J.M. Is there progress with Jethro here? In verse 9 it says, "Jethro rejoiced", and then, in verse 10, Jethro said, "Blessed be Jehovah". Then, in verse 12, "Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God; and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father-in-law in the presence of God". I thought of the disciples having rejoiced when they saw the Lord. We should rejoice similarly and then move forward to bless divine Persons. And

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then we are able to offer burnt-offerings and reach the highest side of privilege.

J.T. Very good; I would go with that. "Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, took a burnt-offering and sacrifices for God". He was in the place of a priest; and what he was saying was priestly; it was a priest's language with a priest's feelings and sentiment, and therefore we can learn from him, because he has such a prominent place in this chapter. Of course, Moses had written all this, and that is another thing to think of. He would love to record these facts about his father-in-law.

Rem. In the morning meeting there should be no oscillating; we should go higher and higher.

J.T. Oscillation was prominent years ago. There was a tendency to address the Father at the beginning of the meeting and then come back to the Son, and that sort of thing. But the Lord has helped us to go on upward, higher and higher yet.

G.H. Would the Spirit be included in that passage which says, "who only has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor is able to see", 1 Timothy 6:16?

J.T. Well, I would say that He is included; the three Persons are in it. There is one God, not many gods.

F.H.L. Luke 22 says that Jesus placed Himself at table and the twelve apostles with Him. It is an unseen service that the Spirit renders.

J.T. We do not see God and we do not see the Spirit. No one has seen God at any time. The Holy Spirit is a divine Person; He is a Spirit. He is not incarnate.

F.H.L. Referring to the activities of the Holy Spirit, how does that come in in Luke's setting?

J.T. Well; it is the Lord Jesus Himself and His disciples that are before us there: "he placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him". That is

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how the passage stands. There are thirteen persons before our notice, to be simple. Well; you say there is an unseen Person, and you have in mind the Holy Spirit, and I would go with that, but obviously, as the passage stands there are thirteen persons in mind.

D.P. In Acts 4:24. God is addressed as despot: "And they, having heard it, lifted up their voice with one accord to God, and said, Lord, thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them". Is God in that character known in this dispensation?

J.T. The word Lord there is despot. It is a special position there, and the facts in the case should help us, for it is a question of an attack on Christ. It says they were praying, but God is regarded as a despot. They say, "For in truth against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou hadst anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the nations, and peoples of Israel, have been gathered together in this city to do whatever thy hand and thy counsel had determined before should come to pass. And now, Lord, look upon their threatenings, and give to thy bondmen with all boldness to speak thy word". That is to say, they are dealing with an attack on the Lord Jesus, and they address God in the capacity of despot. His word must go forward; it cannot be resisted; I believe that is what is meant to be conveyed there. It is the word of a despot and that must go forward. His power cannot be resisted. And that is a comforting thing if there is an attack made upon the testimony. His power cannot be resisted.

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THE ASSEMBLY (9)

Joshua 15:16 - 19; Judges 1:12 - 15; 1 Chronicles 2:4 - 9

J.T. It is in mind to link on our subject with the historical books. Chronicles has a great place, historically, beginning, as the brethren will know, with the name Adam and running on directly to the reign of David, which is introduced in the third chapter. The fact that the book begins with Adam would show that David had been in the mind of the Spirit from the beginning. The reign of David and the services that he inaugurated have a dominating place, you might say, in the Old Testament. And so this book begins with Adam, as mentioned in chapter 5 of Genesis, and runs on through Seth and Enoch, down through Noah, through Abraham and then, finally, down to David. If we are to read the Scriptures aright, having them before us in connection with the service of God, we need the book of Chronicles, for it leads us on to David who inaugurated the twenty-four courses of priests; and this is linked on, in the book of Revelation, with the twenty-four elders. So that the introduction of David in this way is of great importance in connection with the service of God, which begins, properly, with the Lord's supper. It is thought that these remarks should facilitate, or help us at this time in connection with our references to books of Joshua and Chronicles. The position of Achsah is of great interest in the types, because it is so surrounded with spiritual thoughts, suggested in Caleb and Joshua, for instance. The passage read from the book of Judges is almost identical with the same narrative in the book of Joshua. It says, "And Caleb said, He that smites Kirjath-sepher and takes it, to him will I give Achsah my daughter as wife. And Othniel the son of Kenaz. Caleb's younger brother, took it; and he gave him Achsah his daughter as wife",

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verses 12, 13. We should take account of these facts, which are historical but nevertheless spiritual facts, which set out this great type of the assembly. The link with Caleb gives them both a great place, but importance is attached to the spouse. She was Othniel's cousin, and that is a matter that ought to be noted too, because, as connected with the Old Testament believers, it bears on how we link on with each other in marriage. The apostle speaks of "a sister as wife".

J.T.Jr. Achsah would be a known person in Chronicles. That book seems to have in mind that the persons spoken of are known. They are persons that have acquired a place in the testimony; beginning with Adam. "The daughter of Caleb was Achsah", 1 Chronicles 2:49.

J.T. That idea is seen in the New Testament, in such expressions as 'I Jesus' and 'I John' and 'I Paul' and so forth; persons who are known by their names. And of course we all should be known, and we are known; every christian is known in heaven, our names are written there.

A.B.P. The passages we have read from Joshua and Judges are practically the same. Was there some distinction, however, which you had in mind?

J.T. It was just to show how Scripture deals with matters, and is not afraid to repeat, if necessary to stress a thing. Why not repeat it if it is worth repeating?

C.A.M. Was it in your mind, in referring to Caleb, that this woman had a very wonderful background?

J.T. I think that we have been helped in considering the women that enter into these types and particularly in the case of Potipherah's daughter who became Joseph's wife. When we considered her recently we got peculiar help. We had not realised that she was so prominent or distinguished a person as she really is.

C.A.M. Would you connect the thought of the Father with Caleb?

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J.T. Well, it suggests God, I think. She so regards him, in the type, as if he was in the place of God.

C.A.M. Would it be right to view her, then, as the gift of the Father to Christ?

J.T. Well, it is very much like that, and Othniel is worthy of such a gift. If we apply the type to Christ, we can see His worthiness in the way the Father provides for Him. How worthy He is! The Father has provided a spouse for Him. So that, in Revelation 21, John saw the heavenly Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven.

A.N.W. Would the reference to her in Judges be in relation to the fact that Othniel was the first of the judges? She has a setting there, perhaps, in relation to judgeship.

J.T. Well, yes; and he being of the house of Judah is important, too, because of the place that Judah, through David, has in the service of God, in the types.

J.T.Jr. The wife is given on the basis of the prowess of the man; his prowess gets him his wife, so to speak. Is that to bring out the prowess of Christ in dealing with every matter?

J.T. Well, that is what I was thinking, how God brings in the Lord Jesus as the One who is entitled to everything. "The Father ... has given all things to be in his hand", John 3:35. He loves to honour Him. "He that has the bride is the bridegroom", it says in John 3:29. That is to say, He is distinguished in that sense; the bride honours Him, gives Him a certain place that no one else has.

S.W. Would John 17 fit in here? "They were thine, and thou gavest them me", verse 6.

J.T. Just so.

F.S.C. It says in Judges 3 that the Spirit of Jehovah was upon Othniel.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Achsah is mentioned first here, to be given as

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wife, but there is no man in mind. Is it a question of prowess, in order to bring the man forward?

J.T. Well, he is distinguished, of course, immediately, and she is the prize for him. The one who would take Kirjath-sepher would get Achsah for wife; she is the prize.

V.C.L. In Genesis 24 Abraham stipulates that the wife of Isaac must be of his own kindred. Would kindred be seen, in God's sovereignty, in that these were cousins?

J.T. Oh, I think so. As you say, Abraham made that stipulation for the wife that was to be taken for his son, and that principle runs right down to the book of Revelation.

T.N.W. What would you say about that feature being lacking in Asnath and Zipporah, and the Cushite that Moses took to wife? Stress has been laid on kinship, and yet it was lacking in those three cases.

J.T. Well, Asnath was a gift by Pharaoh to Joseph; the supreme ruler; that gives her great distinction. It is a question of finding the reason. There is always a reason for things in Scripture.

T.N.W. In the case of the Cushite, Moses was reproached by his family, but God justified him, did He not?

J.T. Well. He did; it was a question of God's sovereign right.

J.H.E. Chronicles is a great book of records in which people are known and recorded in relation to the Spirit's activities. How necessary, therefore, that Kirjath-sepher, this city of books, should be destroyed and God's thoughts brought in!

J.T. Quite so. Othniel took Kirjath-sepher, which is the city of the book. That is what is in your mind?

J.H.E. Yes. I thought it linked on with Acts 19 where the truth prevailed at Ephesus and the idolatrous books were burned.

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J.T. Those records were of no moral value. "The prices of them", it says, were reckoned at fifty thousand pieces of silver, but they were really of no value in heaven. There are records in heaven, of course, for the book of life and the books of judgment are there, so that no one will be judged unfairly. God keeps records in that sense. "And if any one was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire", we are told, Revelation 20:15. That is to say, the person is known.

C.A.M. I think you were alluding to God's sovereignty connected with Judah, but is it not a fact that God's sovereignty is borne out by evidences of moral worth and power as seen in persons?

J.T. Do you mean in Achsah?

C.A.M. Well, yes; and in Caleb; and then Othniel's name, I think, speaks of power with God.

J.T. We have to go back in history with regard to Joshua and Caleb. Caleb was one of those who searched out the land, and brought a true report, and he fully followed the Lord his God. That is the greatest thing that could be said of him. And he is the father of this woman. She therefore recognises him as representative of God; so she moved her husband to ask a field from him. And she added to that, "Give me a blessing", Judges 1:15. That is another thing; the idea of a blessing is more than a field.

C.A.M. Those words are rather remarkable: "she urged him to ask of her father the field". Is that the recognition of headship?

J.T. Well, I think so; she senses that her father would recognise him. Achsah had been given to him; Caleb gave her himself. She recognises his authority, and urges Othniel to ask for a field; but then she says that she had only a southern land, meaning a place not too well watered, so she says, "Give me a blessing ... give me also springs of water", showing that she had

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the true idea of how growth would be introduced, and fruit, too. It is through the power of water, refreshment; that is to say, the upper and the nether springs. The upper springs, doubtless, allude to Christ in heaven, and the lower springs to the Spirit here, to whom so much place is being given at the present time.

S.W. Jacob served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep, but it is a little different here; the matter depended upon the prowess of Othniel; what he accomplished in battle.

J.T. Well, there are two different viewpoints. We are told that Jacob served for a wife, and for a wife he kept sheep. Othniel served for a wife, too, but it was a military matter; but it all shows how varied the Scriptures are and how full they are, too.

F.H.L. We have been noting in previous types the fact of the women having to do with the well. Here the woman is connected with the springs, in contrast to the well.

J.T. There is something in that, especially if we connect it with the woman and the well in John 4. How much there is of that in Scripture! It is seen especially in Rebecca. And then wells are connected with Jacob's wives, and with the wife of Moses too; and now it is a question of springs of water. Just what do you have in mind as to that?

F.H.L. You made a remark as to the upper and the nether springs, referring to Christ exalted and the Spirit here. Is that a further thought than what we had as to the wells?

J.T. Yes. John 4 enlarges on the thought of the woman and the well. The Lord reduces the thought to the great fact that the water that He should give would be in the believer a well of water springing up into eternal life. Springing up would lead to the upper springs -- springing up. And, of course, the gift of the Spirit involves that Christ is glorified.

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A.N.W. Do not all these different phases referred to show how great the vessel, the assembly, is? On the male side, the greatness of the Person of Christ combines what is set out in Adam, Moses, Othniel and all the other types. He embodies them all. Does it not go to show that we cannot see all in one type?

J.T. Yes; it is a question of variety; the wonderful richness of Scripture. And in the springs there is the idea of being watered. This type of the assembly, as set out in Achsah, shows that the assembly, that is to say, ourselves, those who form it, think of water and of being refreshed in view of growth and fruit, as we are, perhaps, in a little way at this time.

W.A.T. Achsah was marked by energy. It says that 'she urged' and 'she sprang'. It would seem as if she knew the opportunity was there and she seized it.

J.T. And so with Rebecca; she sprang from the camel as soon as she saw Isaac and had enquired about him. Then she took a veil and covered herself, but she had already sprung down, as it were, in recognising the distinction of the Lord Jesus, in type.

A.B.P. On the day of Pentecost, Peter says in regard to Christ, "Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this which ye behold and hear", Acts 2:33. Would that be like the upper and the nether springs?

J.T. Well, just so; and so, while the Spirit was in heaven, He has come down here; and I think the lower springs would refer to Him as down here. Christ remains in heaven.

A.B.P. So that the pouring out would be like the upper springs and the Spirit's operations here the nether springs?

J.T. 'Pour' is a remarkable word; it shows the richness of things.

A.R. It says in Ephesians as to the Spirit: "having

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believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory", chapter 1: 14. Would that be the answer to our chapter in Judges bearing on acquiring the inheritance?

J.T. Well, quite so; and so in 2 Corinthians 1:21 we are told: "he that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God, who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts".

A.R. Achsah and Othniel were concerned as to the inheritance. Caleb was similarly marked; he wanted Hebron. Is it therefore a question of understanding what our inheritance is and as having it, making way for the Spirit as the springs would suggest?

J.T. Quite so; of course, we might add that Hebron was older than Zoan in Egypt; Damascus was an old city, but not so old as Hebron, which was before Zoan in Egypt. Figuratively, it antedates the world. It refers to what God has planned before the world, and it is for us, it is our inheritance.

A.R. We should understand that the land represents our inheritance which we enter upon now, by the Spirit.

J.T. It is a great matter to have something that was before the world. In John's first epistle he appeals to the young men not to love the world: "If any one love the world, the love of the Father is not in him", chapter 2: 15. But Hebron was before the world, and it refers, typically, to our portion or inheritance, and that it preceded the world.

J.T.Jr. Would the reference you made to the anointing, the sealing and the earnest in 2 Corinthians connect with the lower springs especially? That alludes to what is here, does it not?

J.T. Quite so; I think that is the way it works out. The upper springs refer to what is vested in Christ

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above, so that we are said to be raised up together, and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. We are coming into that heavenly exalted position. In the meantime we are content to be here, where the Spirit is, because He is here with us to take care of everything for us.

A.A.T. Is the principle of asking involved in this? This sister asked, and the blessing was given to her; she got the upper and the nether springs. And in John 4 do we not see the same principle operating? "If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that says to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him", verse 10.

J.T. Very good; the word is: "ask, and ye shall receive". Achsah knew that, clearly. She knew whom to ask, too. So that the Lord says, "how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13.

A.N.W. There was alertness with Caleb, too; indeed the whole position is alert. He says, "What wouldest thou?" He was ready, he was inviting the request. Should not that be so with us? The Lord said, "If thou knewest the gift of God ... thou wouldest have asked".

J.T. The living water would be within the range of the gift of God. Achsah knew that, in type. She knew that it was in her father's power to give her springs of water, and he did so. And she regarded them as a blessing. 1 Corinthians 10 tells us about the blessing -- the cup of blessing.

S.W. Would you say that enjoyment of our inheritance depends upon the upper and the nether springs?

J.T. Well, we will not be refreshed if we do not get the water. The woman in John 4 said, "give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw", but the Lord said, "the water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up

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into eternal life". That is a great feature in John's gospel.

A.McD. And would it not help us greatly in connection with the service of God? The Lord spoke to the woman about worship.

J.T. She raised the question of worship, as if it was intended that she should, and the Lord took it up and spoke of those who worship in spirit and truth, saying, "the Father seeks such as his worshippers", John 4:23.

A.N.W. Does the plurality of springs in our passage suggest that there is a kind of system of them? In John 4 there is one spring, or fountain, springing up, but there seems to be a system of springs here -- the upper and nether springs.

J.T. I think the idea is traceable from the history of Abraham. The Philistines contended, but Abraham reproved Abimelech concerning it. There was a system of wells, as you say, and Abraham had dug them. The devil sought to stop them up, but Isaac unstopped the wells that his father had dug. And so, when Isaac had to do with the Philistine king, and his friend Ahuzzath and Phichol the captain of his host, he was able to send them away. He was powerful in the sense that he was not overcome by the Philistine, nor his friend, nor his military man.

J.H.E. Christianity is characterised by springs. The source of a spring is higher than the well in which it is found.

J.T. Well, quite; and so in God's consideration for man, as Creator, He provided a river that went out of Eden and it became four main streams. These, you might say, covered all the known earth, possibly including Egypt, for it would appear that the Euphrates, and the Tigris, and evidently the Nile were in the mind of God. Whatever may be said about it geographically, God had His own mind about it.

E.T.P. You alluded to Isaac and the wells that he

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digged. One well was called Rehoboth, meaning 'Broadways'. I was wondering if that would be like what we have come to today -- scope in the Spirit.

J.T. Well; God had made room for Isaac, and He has made room for us; that is what the word 'Broadways' signifies: "now Jehovah has made room for us".

A.E.W. And Achsah was provided for and given scope. She seemed to appreciate what was there, so that in addition to the south land she asked for springs.

J.T. Quite so; she got what Caleb wanted to give her, for the giving of God is from His own point of view, not simply what we ask or need, but He gives from His own point of view.

J.T.Jr. Would Romans 8 be the opening up of the 'Broadways' in that it deals with what we have in the Spirit?

J.T. There are seventeen references to the Holy Spirit in Romans 8, showing how prominent the idea is in that great fundamental epistle.

V.C.L. Apparently Othniel asked for the field and Achsah asked for the springs. The Lord says in John 16, "I say not to you that I will demand of the Father for you, for the Father himself has affection for you", verse 26.

J.T. Very good; John 15, I think, opens the matter up further. The Lord says, "Ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning", verse 27. But then the Spirit was to bear witness; He was to be the main Witness. He proceeded from the Father. That was the idea. He "goes forth from with the Father". And He bears witness, and He is doing it now. But the twelve did it too because they were with the Lord from the beginning. They had a peculiar place as John's epistle shows, but we have what the Spirit has made available to us in a universal way. It is for all of us. So that He proceeds forth from with the Father; He comes out from where Christ has been glorified.

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A.B.P. In Luke 15, after the famine occurred, the prodigal said, "I have sinned against heaven". Would that suggest that for him the upper springs had been momentarily cut off because he had misused the blessing?

J.T. He had "sinned against heaven". I suppose it implies that God was acting from heaven at that time as well as on earth, and the prodigal had sinned against heaven, which is the place of resource from the divine side.

D.P. Would the gift of the south land and the springs of water maintain Achsah in dignity in the land?

J.T. Well, quite so; although the idea of the field was there, she was concerned about the blessing. What blessing was in her mind? Not the field alone, but springs of water. Therefore she enlarged on the thought, it was expanded in her mind; she said, "Give me springs of water". And Caleb, her father, acted like God and gave her what she needed in abundance; and so we have the thought of abundance in the prophets as connected with the Spirit.

W.A.T. Would the idea of abundance be seen in Titus? It says, speaking of renewal of the Holy Spirit, "which he poured out on us richly", chapter 3: 6. Is that the abundance?

J.T. Just so. And we have it in regard to the water which Moses drew abundantly for the flocks of Jethro.

A.B.P. When Elijah prayed there was the sound of abundance of rain.

J.T. Very good; and in the gospel of John, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly", chapter 10: 10. That is a grand thought in John's gospel.

F.N.W. Does Paul's word in Philippians link on with this? He speaks in chapter 1 of the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and at the end of the book he says, "But my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus".

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J.T. That is very fine phraseology: "my God shall abundantly supply all your need according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus".

F.H.L. In line with this, it says in Luke 11, "how much rather shall the Father who is of heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

J.T. That passage is well worth repeating; we have had it already, but a good thing is worth repeating, and it is right to do so if necessary.

E.T.M. In the offering of the princes in Numbers 7, when the tabernacle system was set up, the same offerings were repeated twelve times. Does that show the pleasure they were to heaven?

J.T. Very good.

A.A.T. Did you have in mind 1 Corinthians 12 as the blessing? The Spirit is mentioned many times in that chapter.

J.T. No, I had in mind chapter 10: "The cup of blessing which we bless". That is the great thought in the Lord's supper. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of the Christ?" That is what I was alluding to. The Lord's supper belongs down here, so to speak.

A.B.P. In Matthew 13 the Lord speaks of the treasure being hid in the field. Would that be the sphere of divine operations in the present dispensation, linking on with the field that Achsah had in mind?

J.T. Yes; and it would link on with the woman of worth in the book of Proverbs; she acquired a field.

A.N.W. Would the field suggest what is potential, but the springs of water, the Spirit's operations which produce fruitfulness?

J.T. Quite so; there would be no fruit from the field if there were no water.

A.MacD. Is there a specific field in Judges? In Joshua Achsah urged Othniel to ask for a field, but in the book of Judges it is the field.

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J.T. The field is a definite idea. The distinction you mention confirms me that we were right in reading the two passages. They are not simply corroborative of one another, there is an addition there in the reference to the field. And so in the reference to: "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent", John 17:3. The article is there too, making the blessing definite.

A.B.P. Naomi warned Ruth that she be not found in any other field.

J.T. Very good.

C.A.M. Is it right to view the inheritance in Joshua as our blessing, the blessing that the saints come into, leading on to the time of David when God's inheritance is seen in the saints?

J.T. Well, quite so; and the idea of blessing comes in very early in the Scriptures; it is said, "And God blessed them", in chapter 1, but to Abraham God says, in chapter 12: "I will make of thee a great nation, and bless thee ... and thou shalt be a blessing". That great idea came in in Abraham and runs down. Abraham is blessed. Jehovah says, "I called him when he was alone, and blessed him", Isaiah 51:2.

Ques. Is there any connection with Malachi, where it says: "prove me ... if I open not to you the windows of the heavens, and pour you out a blessing, till there be no place for it", chapter 3: 10. That speaks of superabundance of blessing.

J.T. Quite so; we have to look into the Scriptures to find the extent of the blessing, and it is remarkable that the idea comes into such prominence at the very end of the Old Testament.

E.T.P. In Acts 19 Apollos was at Corinth, but Paul passed through the upper districts and came to Ephesus. Would those two positions suggest the upper and the nether springs?

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J.T. Very good; Ephesus suggests the upper line of thought, and the lower line would be seen in relation to Corinth. That is to say, the Scriptures that are opened up in the Corinthian epistle would show the lower line of blessing that we come into in the assembly, but the upper line is set out in Ephesus. The blessing in Ephesus is opened up in Acts 20; it is a wonderful chapter. The way things are opened up there is remarkable.

W.A.T. Was Caleb on the upper line when he wanted the mountain, and did his daughter take character after him?

J.T. He was one of those that searched out the land. He and Joshua stood for the truth in the book of Numbers, as those that brought a true report of the sphere of blessing; they had the full thought of the inheritance.

V.C.L. In Deuteronomy 8 Moses said that the land was a place of water-brooks, of springs, and of deep waters, that gush forth. Would Achsah be one that was in the good of the economy so that she came into it experimentally?

J.T. Very good, I would say that is excellent; that is a wonderful passage. We should all understand Deuteronomy in regard to blessing. Achsah came in as the land of which Moses spoke was being possessed, so that you might well link her with that wonderful chapter. Moses was the author of Deuteronomy. In that book he unfolded the law; not simply wrote it, but unfolded it. He was filled with the greatness of it, the blessing of it.

E.T.M. Does Caleb anticipate Achsah when he asks, "What wouldest thou?"

J.T. He was concerned as to what she wanted; she sprang off the ass, it says. She had respect for her father, which each of us should show when we have to do with God or those that represent God. She sprang

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off the ass in respect for her father, and then he asked, "What wouldest thou?" She wanted a blessing; she wanted springs of water, and he granted them to her. He was like God. That is the idea in the type.

C.F.E. Was Achsah marked by intelligence when she said, "Give me a blessing"?

J.T. I think so; she knew the resources that her father had; undoubtedly she knew that he could give her a blessing and that she would not impoverish him by her request. God is rich toward all that call upon Him. And she called upon her father, and she got the blessing. Her father was able to give it to her, and he did.

Rem. Achsah was like Rebecca in that Rebecca sprang off the camel when she came to Isaac.

J.T. Yes; we referred to that, but it is good to have it again.

A.R. Verse 20 of our chapter reads, "This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Judah according to their families". Our inheritance is amongst the saints, is it not, according to Colossians, but then, God's inheritance in the saints is seen in Ephesians. We should understand the value of our inheritance -- "the portion of the saints in light".

J.T. And then, "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints" comes in in Ephesians 1:18. You alluded to that?

A.R. Yes; I was just wondering if we understand what God gets out of these meetings we are having.

J.T. I am sure He gets great pleasure out of the saints being together like this.

S.J.M. Would the south land be a place of favour? God gets His portion.

J.T. Well, I think she does not speak of it in that way, but rather as if it were not enough, that is the way she spoke of it to her father. Besides having that field -- it was a south land -- she wanted a blessing. It may not have been well watered, and she knew that her

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father was capable of furnishing the water that was needed.

S.W. Would it suggest that she had the service of God in mind?

J.T. I think so. And she would be thinking of her husband, for she moved him to ask for the field. She evidently had confidence in him, for they must have had some knowledge of each other; and she would say, in principle, We must serve God in all this, and to do so we must have plenty of water so as to have growth and to produce the means of serving God. And the great thing in anything that we have from God is that it may return to God Himself for His service.

A.N.W. That is very striking! She is very avid; she urges her husband, but she also asks; and she is lavish in her asking. It is a wonderful atmosphere to be in.

J.T. Her asking was direct, and so in Ezekiel God says that He will attend to matters Himself. That will be in judgment, but here it is in blessing. And God loves to bless.

R.F.D. Another aspect of the land, as described in Deuteronomy, is that it "drinketh the rain of heaven". What is the difference in meaning between that and the waters that "gush forth"?

J.T. The rain of heaven is fresh; the freshest kind of water is that which comes down from the clouds. That is a matter, of course, to determine by fact, but I think that is the way it is presented in Scripture. The expanse divided the waters from the waters. The waters above the expanse would be fresher, I would think. And that would be involved in the upper springs.

A.B.P. Ephesians 5 connects the use of water with the Lord as Head of the assembly; He is said to wash it with the water of the word. Might that connect with the upper springs?

J.T. We have been thinking of drinking. Washing

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is one thing, and being refreshed or watered by drink is another.

A.B.P. Yes, I can see that, but I thought that the Lord is seen as Head of the assembly in Ephesians, and water is available to Him.

J.T. Quite so; so that there is the washing of water by the word.

G.H. At dawn there is often dew on the ground. Is that suggestive of the Spirit?

J.T. Well, yes. It is a very refreshing thing in the summer time to get the dew; you are thankful for dew. And so we have the idea of being watered by the dew of heaven. In the case of Nebuchadnezzar it was rather detrimental. He was like a beast -- made to eat grass like a mere animal -- and the dew of heaven came upon him. But when he came to the truth he was recovered and his reason returned to him and he extolled the King of the heavens.

F.N.W. Later on in this book the dew appeared to Gideon. Would that indicate that the Spirit of God has made Himself known in a limited way since the decline of the church, but now we are being helped as to original thoughts?

J.T. Well, quite so; in that case it was on the fleece and not on the dry ground in one case and vice versa in the other case. He asked for that sign and got it. Wherever the dew was there was blessing. Gideon wanted to be assured that God would do certain things for him.

C.A.M. There is an allusion to dew in connection with the manna. In the morning the dew lay around the camp. Would it not be right to feel that the Spirit should have a place in the beginning of our days? The apprehension of the Spirit is increasing in what we are enjoying now. There is an apprehension of the Spirit in an increased way.

J.T. And there is a very great advantage to the

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saints through it. One hears from all parts of the earth of the advantage that has come to souls because of the way the Spirit has become known to us through the ministry of the word. So that the question should arise with each of us as to whether we are appreciating it here. I believe we are.

T.N.W. And this would apply to our sisters too; it is a matter of what is substantial in the assembly taking on appreciation for the Spirit.

J.T. Very good. I have received several very important letters from sisters -- a remarkable one from an elderly sister in Scotland. And I just received a remarkable letter today from an elderly sister in England recording the effect of the Spirit's service in the light of the truth that has come to us lately. This was from a place where there had been considerable opposition heretofore.

C.A.M. Though there may be a certain slowness with some to apprehend what we are speaking of, yet, the very thought of occupying with the Spirit is proving to be of great benefit to the saints everywhere.

V.C.L. Is there not a suggestion here that the liberating of these springs, and all the fruitfulness they provide, allows the conflict to go forward in power. Judah goes out with Simeon in the conflict in verse 17.

J.T. Quite so. Well now, let us say something more about the woman herself; she is a distinctive person. The first book of Chronicles would show that; we should know her by the mention of her name without anything further being added. So that we all should know that she is a type of the assembly; she represents features of the assembly, because she is a type of the assembly and we should be able to speak of what she is in herself.

J.H.E. The writer of the Song of Songs says, in chapter 4: "A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed", verse 12.

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There was something there for his peculiar delight?

J.T. Well, there is a little question as to the idea of the fountain being sealed in that passage, but I think the correct wording is used in the New Translation.

A.B.P. The passage says that Achsah's father gave her to Othniel, but it also says, "And it came to pass, as she came". It would seem that she was fully in the matter; she was prepared to take on the link.

J.T. I believe the idea is that she was there; it is not simply that she came to her husband, but that she came. She filled out the scene; indeed, she was necessary for the scene to be filled out. That is the idea of it, I think. And so it will be in the millennium; the assembly will come into the scene. God will place her there. He has made her the greatest family in the universe, and she is to be there and to be known.

A.B.P. John saw her coming down.

J.T. Quite so. He says in the book of Revelation: "I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", chapter 21: 2.

A.R. In the Song of Songs the bridegroom is described and also the bride. Should we understand the assembly's affinity with the Bridegroom? In Chronicles Achsah is known; I wondered if the Song of Songs works that out. It says, "My dove, mine undefiled, is but one; she is the only one of her mother, she is the choice one of her that bore her. The daughters saw her, and they called her blessed; the queens and the concubines, and they praised her", chapter 6: 9.

J.T. Very good. During the last fifty years the Song of Songs has become, so far as my knowledge of things is concerned, one of the parts of the Old Testament that has been most used for the opening up of the truth of the assembly in the service of God. No other book in the Old Testament has yielded so much, considering its brevity, as the Song of Songs.

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W.A.T. Was Achsah an inspiration to Othniel? She inspired him to great efforts; she urged him on. Was not the assembly, in one sense, an incentive to the Lord? It says: "Who, in view of the joy lying before him, endured the cross", Hebrews 12:2. And then the merchantman of Matthew 13, "Having found one pearl of great value", could sell all that he had in order that he might buy the pearl.

J.T. She is truly the woman of worth, according to Proverbs 31"Who can find a woman of worth?"

Ques. Why does Achsah, not Othniel, take the active part in asking for the springs of water?

J.T. Well, she is aware that they are needed; that is the idea, and her father discerned it. She asked for springs of water, but he gave her the upper springs and the nether springs. He gave her more than she asked.

F.H.L. And is there a touch of what is Solomonic in that? After he became Israel's saviour, in chapter 3, the land had rest forty years. Does that carry the type through?

J.T. Very good; I would say that. The land had rest forty years under Othniel's influence.

F.N.W. Is there something unique in this type of the assembly in that it is not so much that the man is there, but it seems to be a question of finding a man worthy of the woman?

J.T. Well, it says that she came; not simply that she came to her husband; you might expect that. But she came as entering into the great scene that was opened up to her, and she filled it out, I think.

J.T.Jr. The idea of fulness would come in here?

J.T. That is just it; the idea of fulness. The assembly is "the fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:23.

A.B.P. It says as to her that, 'she came', then 'she urged', and then 'she sprang', and also that "she

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said". Is it not like the woman in Mark's gospel of whom the Lord said, "What she could she has done", chapter 14: 8.

J.T. Very good.

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THE ASSEMBLY (10)

Ruth 1:1 - 22; Ruth 4:1 - 22

J.T. It is in mind to look at Ruth as a type of the assembly, but it may be well to first clarify certain points which, I think, should be mentioned. First, I would say that she is viewed as a person who has love for the one who, for the moment, is the vessel of testimony. Naomi represents the people of God. Whatever may be said about her going to Moab, she is seen here as returning to the position of the people of God, and being honoured as coming back to that position. Chapter 1 shows that whilst Ruth's sister-in-law, Orpah, went back. Ruth clave to Naomi, clearly viewing her as lovable. And according to all the facts that come out as to Naomi, she had a clear understanding of the people of God, knowing what belonged to them, what was suitable to them, and what was seemly in them. Ruth valued all that, and in her committal said, among other things, that where Naomi died she would die and be buried there. She committed herself wholly to Naomi, and I believe in that sense she becomes a type of the assembly, that is to say, of the saints who love those who are of the testimony, regarding them in their seemliness. In result, as moving on those lines she became the wife of Boaz, a near relative of Elimelech, who had the right of redemption, and therefore is a type of Christ; Ruth herself, as has been remarked, being a type of the assembly. It is for us to ponder these things to see if Scripture bears out what is being said.

A.B.P. The Scripture says, "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren", 1 John 3:14. That would support what has been said.

J.T. And so it says of the centurion in Luke 7, "he loves our nation", verse 5. He was undoubtedly one who came into the assembly. He said that he was a

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man under authority, and he had an impression of Christ's position here; and he loved the nation.

C.A.M. In Ephesians 1:14 it says, in regard to the Spirit, "who is the earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to the praise of his glory". Does that apply to this line of thought?

J.T. It does. Boaz is a type of Christ, the One who has the right to redeem. And then there is the idea of raising up the name of the dead; that is another point which comes out in this book.

A.N.W. A further idea is that of purchase; the word purchase is a potent one, it seems to me, pointing in the direction you are suggesting: "the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own", Acts 20:28. Boaz says, in chapter 4: 10, "Ruth ... have I purchased to be my wife".

J.T. That word, "... purchased with the blood of his own", seems to refer to what God has done. "His own" would refer to Christ, I would think.

W.A.T. The name of Ruth is mentioned in the genealogy in Matthew, which is the assembly gospel. Would that not indicate the link that she has with the assembly?

J.T. The facts that establish what we are looking into are found in this very book; that is to say, Ruth was one who loved Naomi. That is asserted; not only that she clave to Naomi, but in the last chapter she is said to have loved her, verse 15.

J.A.P. Is there any type of the Holy Spirit in this book? The Holy Spirit has come into several of our other inquiries as to the assembly; particularly in Genesis 24, and elsewhere, and I was wondering if that is so in this book. I cannot see that it is, but I was wondering if it is so.

J.T. Well, if any one has a suggestion it may be helpful.

A.B.P. Is there not a suggestion in chapter 2: 6?

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Reference is made there to "the servant that was set over the reapers". Would there not be some intimation of the service of the Spirit in that?

J.T. Well, that is the one thing that was on my mind. There may be a reference there. In certain instances, when you get distinguished unnamed persons, the likelihood is that there is an allusion to the Spirit, and I would fully go with the thought that the servant here would be such a type. He is a nameless servant, but a man of distinction, a man of business, a man of action, in that sense. He was particularly in my mind, but one does not like to say too much, because there is so much that points to the Spirit, and we do not need to force anything. But I would quite go with the suggestion that the servant of Boaz may be an allusion to the Spirit.

A.B.P. I have wondered also, if Naomi does not rise, in certain parts of the book, to a type of the Spirit in His subjective work in us. There is a kinship link with Boaz, and she knows perfectly well what Boaz will do: "the man will not rest until he have completed the matter this day", chapter 3: 18. Would it be going too far to see the Spirit's activity in that?

J.T. Well, as I was remarking, it is well to be a little restrained as to this; there is so much that can be said on that point that we do not need to force anything; the Lord is assuring us and comforting us as to it, especially as to such persons as 'the master of the house', in the gospels. These illustrations are quite sufficient to bring out the truth of the Holy Spirit, so that we do not need to force anything.

J.T.Jr. The servant's accurate knowledge of what Ruth did would show that he would be a very forceful type. It says, "And she came, and has continued from the morning until now: her sitting in the house has been little as yet", chapter 2: 7. He had accurate knowledge of Ruth's movements.

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J.T. Just so. Well now, I think we should proceed with the typical teaching, first of Naomi, then of Ruth, and then Boaz, and how the thought as to the right of redemption in Boaz is brought in.

C.A.M. You were stressing the thought of love; that seems to be her only link, would you not say, inasmuch as her setting was really reproachful?

J.T. Yes; love overcomes it, everything she does is seemly. And all that Boaz does is seemly, too, so that the enemy is shut out. Take, for example, Boaz's suggestions to her to remain till the morning, and then to let it not be known that a woman was in the threshing floor; all was seemly, it was according to what is right, which is a great matter in these things. It is a question of seemliness, and, of course, it ultimately brings us to what came out in Christ, because it must be so when we deal with a matter fully. We must see the thing working out in Christ in the gospels. And the book of Ruth can be seen worked out in the gospels. Of that I am certain. And this would show the importance of studying the Scriptures. The apostle says, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. And what we need in these meetings is to get understanding from the Lord, but the ministry is the basis of it: "Think of what I say".

C.A.M. That allusion to the life of the Lord is a very beautiful suggestion, because the assembly must derive every feature of beauty and all else from Christ.

J.T. She derives it from Christ.

C.A.M. As far as what is legal was concerned, she had no right to anything.

F.H.L. Every other man has to disappear but Christ.

T.N.W. In John 4 it speaks of the disciples coming and wondering that the Lord spoke with a woman. Does that not have a link with this?

J.T. Well, quite so; it was perfectly right, infinitely

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right, and yet there might be a question about it with some. And so it is in the case of Ruth, but questions are groundless when we look into the facts. So that it says of God: "that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus", Romans 3:26.

A.N.W. Matthew 1 plainly brings her in line, for the bringing in of Christ.

J.T. And so, in Matthew 1 there may have been certain questions about the Lord's own birth, but it is infinitely right. "The holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", Luke 1:35. It is infinitely right.

C.F.E. Do we see a subjective state in Ruth as linking on with Naomi, and finally with Boaz, becoming the wife of Boaz?

J.T. Well, quite so; she is, you might say, of Naomi. Luke's gospel traces the genealogy of Christ back through Adam to God. In each case the word of is used, whereas Matthew begins with Abraham and says they "begat". Ruth, you might say, is of Naomi. She has a daughterly link with Naomi, and Naomi has a motherly link with her.

J.T.Jr. There is no actual remaining natural link, therefore there is something mysterious.

J.T. The centurion, in Luke 7, had a link in that he loved the nation "and himself has built the synagogue for us". And the Lord marvelled at him and the understanding he had.

A.R. And it says of the woman in Luke 7 that she "loved much".

J.T. Well, there it is; it is well linked with the centurion who loved the nation. The Lord says that she loved much. Hence these facts show that the book of Ruth can be worked out in the gospels.

V.C.L. Ruth was attached, in love, to the vessel of the testimony before the matter of redemption was completed. Would that link with the gospels and those

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that were attached to Christ before the actual matter of redemption was worked out by Him?

J.T. Well; the foundation was there; that is, John 3 brings in the idea of being born anew: "Except any one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God". And that idea is seen in Ruth. What she saw in Naomi formed a link with her. All that works out in relation to the truth of the assembly.

C.A.M. Would you say that the claim that any one of us has with regard to kinship is because there is a God-given love in our souls? There is that evidence of the work of God which marks us off as material for the assembly.

J.T. Yes; John 3 is the great basis -- the new birth. Ruth was altogether outside of Moabitish connection. She left Moab; she severed herself entirely from Moab, and God has caused that.

J.H.H. Would Ruth help us to love the brethren in a right way? She loved Naomi, even though Naomi spoke of being in bitterness. But Ruth could go beyond that and see the work of God in her.

J.T. John's epistle would work that out. The groundwork of everything is in the new birth, and John's ministry brings that out.

E.A.L. What would be learned from the fact that the masculine side is taken away, leaving only the women?

J.T. Well, the word dead is used as to them. And the point is that there is life from among the dead. That is the idea in the book. In the millennium the Jewish remnant will come into life, but, of course, this matter comes into our own dispensation.

J.T.Jr. So that the thought of life out of death is a principle in Romans, is it not? Death having come in, it is a question of life now, and the apostle makes a great deal of love, too, does he not? Love is the whole law.

J.T. And so the redeemer must bring in life. The

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inheritance is secured; Boaz purchases it; he secures it; he redeems the inheritance, and then he brings in life.

A.B.P. Do we see deliverance from the social world here? Moab is different to the Egyptian world, is it not?

J.T. Moab is very proud; it is the world in that sense. The whole world lies in the wicked one.

A.B.P. If we are to be good assembly material, we have to overcome the social side of things.

J.T. Quite so; Isaac had to overcome the social side with respect to the Philistines in Genesis 26. The social side was a great difficulty, but he overcame it.

A.B.P. In doing so he brought in the feminine side in the ewe lambs.

V.C.L. Is there faith with Ruth in that she speaks of death and of burial?

J.T. Just so; "there will I be buried". She went that length. Orpah went back to her country and to her gods, but Ruth clave to Naomi. And she spoke to Naomi, saying, "... where thou diest will I die, and there will I be buried". That is to say, death and burial were in her thoughts. It is said of Christ that He was buried: "... that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried", 1 Corinthians 15:3.

R.F.D. Is there a suggestion in Ephesians that the assembly existed before Christ was delivered up? It says, "as the Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it", chapter 5: 25.

J.T. Well; it is the perfect divine knowledge that the Lord had of everything. Divine thoughts were there, but anticipating redemption, and therefore the Lord gave Himself for it. That is the price He paid; He gave Himself for it; it was on that basis.

D.P. Should persons coming from Moab be challenged in regard to their attachment to what is of the assembly?

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J.T. What need is there of any challenge if the link is there? The link was of God. If a person has a link with God, you do not challenge that. That is to say, the work of God must underlie everything, and that is what we have in John 3"Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", and then, "Except any one be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". The work of God is evident if he sees the kingdom and enters into it.

J.T.Jr. Ruth went the whole way; and that would be evident if there is a true link. The person would go the whole way. Death and burial is the whole way.

A.N.W. It is repeatedly said in this book that Ruth is the Moabitess. Is that to show the excellence of grace?

J.T. We get many instances of that in persons getting their names from what they were before they were converted. Take, for instance, Simon Peter; at certain times the Lord reverted to the name of Simon. And there are many other instances.

A.N.W. Is Mary Magdalene another?

J.T. Yes, quite so.

S.W. Would Ruth's link with what was of God be recognised by the elders and those in the gate when they were willing to link Ruth on with Rachel and Leah?

J.T. Well, nothing could be clearer than the position as it is stated in the last chapter, which we should come to now. It says, "Boaz went up to the gate, and sat down there ... And he said, ... If thou wilt redeem it, redeem; but if thou wilt not redeem, tell me, that I may know; for there is none to redeem besides thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I will redeem it. And Boaz said, On the day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance. And he that

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had the right of redemption said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance. Redeem thou for thyself what I should redeem, for I cannot redeem it". The thing is clearly settled; it is a public matter in the city.

E.A.L. Would the beginning of chapter 2 show that there was a link with Boaz through Elimelech? "And Naomi had a relation of her husband's, a mighty man of wealth, of the family of Elimelech".

J.T. Well, that is the point in the last chapter; the relationship is there. But Naomi spoke to Ruth of that at once; she apprised her of it. And Boaz acted in the most seemly manner, giving to Ruth the evidence of his liberality and love and kindness to his relative in the food that he sent by Ruth's hand to her mother-in-law. So the whole position is clear as the matter is concluded. And that is the point we are on now; it is a question of marriage, and Ruth is a type of the assembly by the facts here.

J.A.P. In Romans 7 we have, "So that, my brethren, ye also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another". Is that the position?

J.T. That is right; the epistle to the Romans helps us on those points. It is a great matter to see how these things work out in the New Testament; that the things that are being ministered at the present time, in the power of the Spirit, are worked out in the New Testament.

R.H.S. Is there a distinction between the idea of redemption and being purchased? The assembly has been purchased, but it has been suggested that the assembly has not been redeemed.

J.T. Well, both things are true. In Acts 20 it speaks of the assembly of God, which He has purchased with the blood of His own. That is the same as redemption; it is the purchase money. Every Israelite had to be purchased.

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E.T.P. It would seem that when Boaz purchased this allotment the great thought in his mind was Ruth. Would that link with Matthew 13 where the man purchases the field because of the treasure in it?

J.T. Well, just so. All these things are important because much has been said that things must be supported in the New Testament. Well, must they be in the New Testament? Is that a right statement? I do not think it is, because every scripture is inspired of God -- every scripture -- and it is profitable. But at the same time, if they are in the New Testament we are on right ground in bringing them forward for confirmation.

A.R. Would the place the gentiles have in Paul's mind as brought into the assembly be seen in Ephesians? He says that they were "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ... become nigh by the blood of the Christ", chapter 2: 12.

J.T. Yes; quite so. The book of Acts says, "this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it", chapter 28: 28. Ephesians brings in Jew and gentile, "that he might form the two in himself into one new man". It is "the Jew first" in the epistle to the Romans.

R.D.G. The one who had the right to purchase said he would redeem, but when he heard the name of the Moabitess mentioned he said he could not.

J.T. Well, I would say he is the type of a legal believer; just a legal person; he was not ready to go the full length and take the place of a brother, to raise up seed to a brother. That comes in in Deuteronomy 25. The dead brother is to have seed raised up to him, which is a great matter to understand; and that is what comes out in this chapter. So that Boaz says, "On the day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife

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of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance. And he that had the right of redemption said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar mine own inheritance. Redeem thou for thyself what I should redeem, for I cannot redeem it", chapter 4: 5. That is to say, he came short, he was not a mighty man of wealth, whereas Boaz had plenty of means, and therefore he was prepared to raise up a name for the dead. He not only secures the inheritance, but he is prepared to raise up the name of the dead.

A.B.P. Is this seen in the Acts in the hesitation of the believing Jews to take on the heavenly side of the truth?

J.T. It would be something like that, I would say. You would see this in persons that are not real in their profession; there is a shortage, they do not have the full thought of purchase.

A.B.P. I have been struck with the statement of James to Paul in Jerusalem, "Thou seest, brother, how many myriads there are of the Jews who have believed, and all are zealous of the law", Acts 21:20. The vessel of the heavenly ministry was amongst them, and apparently the truth as to the assembly was not being received; they were zealous of the law.

J.T. All that would go with what we are saying.

D.P. Did Boaz establish in the presence of the elders the right and legality of Ruth to the position?

J.T. Exactly; that is the point; the chapter will show that, and that is now what we are coming to, how the marital transaction takes place.

J.T.Jr. Matthew's gospel establishes the position legally. The first chapter legally establishes the whole position as to Christ.

J.T. That is the idea, exactly; the position is established legally. And what can anyone say? Let anyone who wishes to challenge it do so, but what can he say? The thing is established legally.

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J.A.P. And it is established from the Old Testament.

J.T. Quite so. There were no other scriptures then, of course, except the Old Testament. I think it is helpful to go back in history, as we have done, to get things established; if they are established historically, legally, then we can be firm in them.

A.N.W. The legal atmosphere is emphasised strongly in our chapter. The matter is all legally carried through; there can be no dispute; legal terms are used.

J.T. You refer to the custom in Israel?

A.N.W. Yes; and the gate, and the witnesses, and the taking off of the sandal: "Now this was the custom in former time in Israel concerning redemption and concerning exchange, to confirm the whole matter". It is very pronounced.

J.T. All these things are very important. Some may ask, Why should we be legal? But it is a question of what is established before God. How could we have redemption, for instance, if Christ had not become Man? We could not have redemption without that. But He has become Man, and He has died. So the thing is established legally. Redemption had to be established through death, and death has taken place.

A.N.W. Otherwise, why should we have the genealogy of Matthew 1 in addition to Luke 3?

J.T. In Matthew 1, begetting is in mind and the genealogy begins with Abraham, whereas in Luke 3 the word of is used and everything is traced back to God; you begin with Christ and go back to God.

V.C.L. Does not chapter 4 of this book bring us into the liberty of Romans 8? In place of what the law could not do, the whole freedom of the Spirit's realm comes in.

J.T. Very good.

J.T.Jr. And the legality of the Spirit's position is established in Romans 8. Our right to address the Spirit is established legally.

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A.E.W. The word of Boaz to the elders and to the people is, "Ye are witnesses this day ... Ruth the Moabitess ... have I purchased to be my wife". We have been having much as to Christ and the assembly, and I thought we might say the Spirit is helping us to be witnesses to the truth.

J.T. Well. John's epistle would show that: "This is the witness", it says. The thought of witness is alluded to several times in 1 John 5. "This is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son".

C.A.M. In Galatians 4 it says: "God sent forth his Son, come of woman, come under law, that he might redeem those under law, that we might receive sonship", verse 4.

J.T. That is a sequence: "that we might receive sonship" is a legal sequence. "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus", chapter 3: 26. Who can question it? And then, "But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", chapter 4: 6. What can be more legal than that and yet what can be more precious?

C.A.M. Would it not be right to say that one of the greatest things which has come into the souls of the saints through the ministry as to the Spirit is that we understand sonship in a way that we never understood it before. We now look at sonship more from the divine side, instead of trying to reach it from the need side.

J.T. So, God is bringing many sons to glory. He is doing that, and we want to be sure that we are amongst them, because God is doing it.

F.S.C. Would the fields and the harvest which are spoken of so much in this book suggest the great idea of life out of death?

J.T. The book begins with the fields of Moab.

F.S.C. But the further thought is in the fields of

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Boaz where the barley harvest and the wheat harvest are referred to.

J.T. Very good. The barley harvest comes first: that is, before the wheat harvest. The first is the resurrection of Christ; the second, the resurrection of the saints. The first thing we get in the book of Acts is that Christ is risen; "he presented himself living, after he had suffered", chapter 1: 3. And then, in principle, we get the resurrection of the saints in the three thousand that were converted on one day. That is like the wheat harvest. So that the barley harvest is Christ risen and the wheat harvest is the saints; because you cannot have the assembly without the saints.

A.B.P. Is it, "the first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming", 1 Corinthians 15:23?

J.T. That is it. A thing that has been made very clear to me, just recently, is that you cannot have the assembly without the saints; Christ Himself could not be the assembly, you must have the saints. Therefore, we begin with Christ in the barley harvest, and then we come to the beginning, we might say, of the wheat harvest in the three thousand that were converted on the day of Pentecost.

A.B.P. It says that Ruth kept with the maidens of Boaz "until the end of the barley-harvest and of the wheat-harvest". That was all before union took place.

W.W.M. It says, "ye are witnesses this day. And all the people that were in the gate and the elders said, We are witnesses", chapter 4: 11. In Acts 10 Peter says, in relation to the bringing in of the gentiles, "We also are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem ... . This man God raised up the third day and gave him to be openly seen, not of all the people, but of witnesses who were chosen before of God, us who have eaten and drunk with him after he arose from among the

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dead", verse 39. There would be correspondence in this witness.

J.T. Very good. Witness is a great matter with God, because it is basic. "... whereof all we are witnesses", Peter says in Acts 2:32. They were witnessing to the resurrection of Christ.

D.P. In Boaz there was a man in Israel who had the ability to settle an issue on the ground of righteousness.

J.T. He had the ability; that word applies to him fully; he was a mighty man of wealth; he was a relative of Naomi, and indirectly of Ruth. He "will not rest until he have completed the matter this day".

A.R. He settled it on the basis of Deuteronomy 25. That suggests manhood, does it not? Deuteronomy was written by a man of God.

J.T. Moses was the man of God. "... began Moses to unfold this law", Deuteronomy 1:5. It was what he said himself.

W.A.T. Is the greatness of the wealth of Boaz seen in verse 9? It says, "I have bought all that was Elimelech's". Is what Christ has received in acquiring the assembly seen in that?

J.T. Well, it is the inheritance. "Boaz said to the elders and all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi; moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day", Ruth 4:9. Now these are wonderful facts when we apply them spiritually, and bring them into the New Testament, because they refer to what has come to pass in Christ.

J.McD. Boaz appreciated Ruth's qualities and her worth; he was able to discern it and delighted in it.

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J.T. Ruth took a very lowly place, you know, and Boaz commended her in the fullest way. He says, in chapter 2: 8: "Hearest thou not, my daughter? Go not to glean in another field, neither go from here, but keep here with my maidens. Let thine eyes be on the field which is being reaped, and go thou after them; have I not charged the young men not to touch thee?" And then in chapter 3: "Blessed be thou of Jehovah, my daughter! Thou hast shown more kindness at the end than at the first, inasmuch as thou followedst not young men, whether poor or rich. And now, my daughter, fear not: all that thou sayest will I do to thee; for all the gate of my people knows that thou art a woman of worth", verse 10. Ruth gets the same title as the woman in Proverbs 31. "Who can find a woman of worth?" verse 10. Ruth gets that title here and she is a type of the assembly. It is very blessed that we can say these things together, because the idea of these meetings is that we say things together in holy fellowship one with another.

E.A.L. Boaz adds, in chapter 2: 11, "It has fully been shown to me, all that thou hast done to thy mother-in-law since the death of thy husband".

J.T. That is a great matter. She dealt kindly with her mother-in-law. So that everything confirms us as regards Ruth; she is commendable in every way as a type of the assembly.

A.B.P. Boaz, and the kinsman, and the ten men, make a total of twelve men in the gate. Does that represent assembly administration?

J.T. Yes; it is like Acts 19; there were twelve men at Ephesus.

A.P. Is it important to see that we have the service of God brought in in Obed?

J.T. His name means 'Worshipper'. That is a great point in the book; the consummation is in the worshipper; and then the full line of David. The last

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paragraph shows how the whole result is in the line leading up to David; and, of course, that means leading up to Christ. It reads: "Now these are the generations of Pherez. Pherez begot Hezron, and Hezron begot Ram, and Ram begot Amminadab, and Amminadab begot Nahshon, and Nahshon begot Salmon, and Salmon begot Boaz, and Boaz begot Obed, and Obed begot Jesse, and Jesse begot David". And that is Christ in type, of course; therefore, we have come to the assembly; we have come to Christ; we have come to worship; it is all in these four chapters of the book of Ruth.

J.T.Jr. It is Judah's line; his name means 'Praise'. "When Israel went out of Egypt ... Judah was his sanctuary", Psalm 114:1.

J.T. Quite so; Obed would fit in with that; he is the worshipper.

R.H.S. Would this link too with Hebrews 12? "Ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God", etc., and then it says, "... to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; ... and to Jesus".

J.T. Very good; that is what we have come to.

F.N.W. What is the instruction in this type in that Naomi, as well as Ruth, is retained in our minds to the end?

J.T. Naomi represents the Israel of God in the future; and that is the bearing of the book of Ruth. Ruth herself is a type of the remnant of Israel in the future, but she can be used as a type of the assembly at the present time.

F.N.W. I was wondering if the motherly side, as well as the bridal side, of the assembly is carried forward? It says in Galatians, "Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother" (chapter 4: 26), and "the children of the desolate are more numerous than those of her that has a husband", verse 27. Would that be indicated in Naomi?

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J.T. Well, that is right. But let us just see what is said about Naomi here. It says that the child "shall be to thee a restorer of thy life" (that is a question of Naomi coming into life), "and a nourisher of thine old age; for thy daughter-in-law who loves thee, who is better to thee than seven sons, has borne him", chapter 4: 15. We have alluded to Ruth's love for Naomi; it is not only said that she clave to her, but that she loved her. And then it says, "Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse to it. And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi. And they called his name Obed. He is the father of Jesse, the father of David". Now she is coming into her own, so to speak, because she is revived. I think it is very beautiful. It is really an allusion to Israel, what Israel will come into in the millennium; restoration, in freshness.

J.A.P. It says also, "and may his name be famous in Israel!" The Lord Jesus will have that place in Israel in a day to come, will He not?

J.T. And so it says, in Philippians, "... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God the Father's glory", chapter 2: 10.

S.W. Is there significance in the fact that the neighbours named this child? Are these persons in line, in keeping with what was going on?

J.T. Well, if you compare the first of Luke, for instance, the neighbours wanted to call the child's name Zacharias, but Zacharias said, "John is his name". But they do not say that here; the name they give is accepted. It is quite good when we say things that can be accepted by the brethren.

D.P. Does Ruth surpass Naomi?

J.T. Well, I would think so, in a certain sense. Naomi represents the people of God as a whole. One who loves the people of God, commends himself

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peculiarly; and Ruth loved the people of God; but then Ruth got a wonderful place; she became the wife of Boaz, the mighty man of wealth. She is a type of the assembly, which is greater than what Naomi sets out. She is greater than the millennial saints, she belongs to our own dispensation, in type, for she typifies the assembly.

C.A.M. That bears on what you said at the beginning; that Ruth is a type of the assembly.

J.T. And I think that the book confirms fully what we have said; that is, that she can be considered as a type of the assembly, whereas Naomi represents the people of God in the millennium, when they will be revived and come into a great place.

A.R. It says, "And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse to it". Does that suggest the place that Christ will have in the affections of the godly remnant in a day to come?

J.T. Well; I think so. He will be glorified among His people; He will have a wonderful place there. But He has a greater place now in the affections of the assembly, His bride, according to the book of Revelation.

R.D.G. Does the fact that this matter was done in the gate and that the neighbours come into it correspond with what Paul said to Agrippa, "this was not done in a corner"?

J.T. Very good. What we are having in these meetings is small, outwardly, but important.

Ques. Would John 4 come into this?

J.T. Well, exactly; Obed means Worshipper.

S.W. Ruth comes under the notice of the servant in chapter 2, who, in type, is the Spirit, and she has a conversation with him.

J.T. I think it is very much like Rebecca; she had a conversation with the chief servant of Abraham, and Ruth is doing that here.

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Rem. Naomi says she came back empty, but actually she brings Ruth back with her.

J.T. Well, yes, it says that Ruth reserved some of the food and brought it to Naomi. Naomi came back empty, but Ruth fed her.

C.A.M. So that we have not only our need supplied, but we are brought into most wonderful blessing. Naomi really comes into something that is wonderful.

J.T. Yes; and I would say to any young person today, that if he wants to come into fellowship he will be coming into what is really wonderful; for it is what God has done, it is the fellowship of God's Son and God's people.

A.N.W. No one knew that better than Naomi!

T.N.W. Do you think it might become more wonderful to some if they renounced the social side of things? It seems to negate what is so precious and there seems to be a tendency to that with some of the young.

J.T. Well, quite so, we have to be on the watch against worldliness; persons may be quite worldly and yet come to meetings such as these.

W.A.T. I suppose we need to be prepared for a spiritual move. It says of Naomi that "she went forth out of the place where she had been", chapter 1: 7.

J.T. Quite so.

J.H.E. Was not Ruth willing to take a low place? And she was considerate of Naomi.

J.T. Just so; and she received a wonderful title. Boaz said, "my people knows that thou art a woman of worth". And Boaz was to make himself a name in Bethlehem, and Ruth was to become his wife.

J.H.E. Love considers for others.

E.A.L. Was Naomi one who had an ear for the truth? She took the initiative in returning to the land of Judah because of what she had heard.

J.T. Quite so; she had ears to hear. It says, in

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Acts 11, that certain matters came to the ears of the assembly.

R.D.G. Naomi was not called Mara, was she?

J.T. Not so far as we know.

E.T.P. You stressed the thought of love as seen in Ruth. I wondered if the line of love is carried through in Naomi. It says that she laid the child in her bosom.

J.T. Quite so; it is the place of affection. Jesus is said to be in the bosom of the Father. And John lay in the bosom of Jesus.

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THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK AND THE LORD'S SUPPER

1 Corinthians 11:23 - 26

The first day of the week is very prominent in the Acts and in the epistles. It became prominent when the Lord rose from the dead. It shows to us that christianity is the beginning of things spiritually. The special day that is connected with christianity is the first day, not the last. The Supper is connected with it; it is in keeping with that thought. The Sabbath was to Israel the sign of God's relations with them, and we are told in Exodus 31, that God rested on the seventh day, and was refreshed. It comes in after the instructions were given to Moses in regard to the tabernacle, and would correspond in a measure as to its place with the place the Lord's supper has in Paul's ministry. Paul received it from the Lord, in connection with the new heavenly system, and delivered it to the assembly, the Lord's supper and the first day of the week having in view refreshment for divine Persons. Luke is really writing in the light of Paul's communications, in the light of what we have in 1 Corinthians 11. Hence the Lord's supper is brought in in his gospel as connected with the assembly. Paul and Luke would dissociate it from the passover, whereas the other two do not. Paul connects it with the assembly. I think the bread and the cup suggest what Christ is to us. The bread speaks of Christ's body in which He did the will of God here. My will must be given up if I eat of that. As one's will is broken, one is set free to enjoy divine love. "This is my body, which is for you". It is Christ's personal love for the assembly and He laid down His life for it. He said "I have authority to lay it down". The more we ponder what He was as a Man here, the more we appreciate what love is. "This is my body". It was in His body that He suffered.

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Consistency with it is brought out in our links with one another. What breaks unity amongst the saints is will. The Lord removes our wills, so that there might be room for the Spirit. If we are in the allowance of an unbroken will, we do not rightly partake of the Supper. I am committed to unity.

What is before us immediately in the Supper is the Lord. The Supper by itself is a memorial of Christ, of Himself. The Lord took a loaf, which was a material thing, and hung spiritual thoughts on it. So the cup also introduced spiritual thoughts. He gives us the cup and in it is all that speaks of love. It is all in one vessel, and the idea is communion. We all break the same bread and drink the same cup. It is the idea of unity. The Lord's supper is the symbol of unity. So in chapter 12 where the two ordinances of christianity are alluded to in a spiritual way, Paul says that "we have all been baptised into one body ... and have all been given to drink of one Spirit". The reference is to baptism and the Lord's supper. We give thanks for the cup and maintain the symbol in its simplicity. That which is in the cup, according to the Lord's mind, He has put into it. It speaks to us of things according to His perfect knowledge of them. It is for us to see that we get them into our souls. What we feed on is one thing, and what we drink of is another. You appreciate the emblems as you partake of them. It is a sign of the moral greatness of the Lord that He talked about love and shows it when all around showed hatred. We do not continue to be occupied with the symbols, for the Supper makes way for the headstone, for Christ to be supreme personally. The headstone will be put on. The full thought of unity is brought before us in the Supper. The Spirit and the bride say, Come. The bride says it too, as well as the Spirit. The cry, "Behold the bridegroom" brings in the Supper, and immediately you are conscious of the need for the Holy Spirit. The five

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foolish virgins were without the oil; their lamps went out. Those that have the oil go on to the end. The saints are being brought back to the truth of the Spirit, and to make room for the Spirit in full measure in order to go on to the end. John tells us that He giveth not the Spirit by measure. The fourth of John is the proof of it; for it is a well which springs up into everlasting life, and in John 7 the Spirit flows out in rivers. It shows the abundance of it. Every time you drink of the cup you are reminded of the place the Spirit has, we are given to drink into one Spirit. The apostle Paul is said to be a minister of the assembly. There is also "the ministry of the Spirit", which Paul says, "subsists in glory". All this is to bring us into unity and into liberty. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. That carries us right on to what Christ is to us. But we all with unveiled face beholding the Lord's glory are changed into the same image. I think the glory of the Lord is the outshining of Himself and it is brought into our hearts by the Spirit.

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THE ASSEMBLY (11)

1 Samuel 25:1 - 21, 32, 33, 39 - 42

J.T. It may be a help, generally, to mention that in connection with Abigail, a type of the assembly, we have the prophetic word; the prophetic word enters into this section of Scripture in a peculiar measure and especially in Samuel, of whom it is said in the book of Acts that the prophetic word began with him. As a matter of fact Samuel's mother, Hannah, had a certain prophetic touch as can be seen in her prayer in chapter 2 of this book. Samuel himself is pre-eminently typical of the prophetic word, and David, too, comes into it. It may help to keep all this in mind because the prophetic word has been much before us for many years and it is still before us. And it is undoubtedly intended to amplify the thought of the assembly, as the leading family of God, of which it is said: "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", Ephesians 3:21.

A.R. Is Abigail the product of Samuel's ministry?

J.T. Well, you cannot say too much, save that she appears in the book of Samuel; and Samuel is spoken of in the Acts as the leading prophet. It says there that all the prophets from Samuel and those in succession after him had spoken.

R.W.S. The passage reads: "And indeed all the prophets from Samuel and those in succession after him, as many as have spoken, have announced also these days", Acts 3:24. Would 'these days' bear upon ourselves?

J.T. Ours are remarkable days. They are at the end, we might say, of a great revival; which was attacked almost immediately when it began, but God has preserved it ever since, and I do not think it was ever more appreciated by the brethren than it is now. God has helped the brethren.

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R.W.S. The speaking would involve the Spirit?

J.T. Well, yes; and that is what has been in mind in these readings. It is a matter of the place the Spirit has in these settings, especially in Genesis 24, which is the chapter of Isaac and Rebecca.

Ques. What would be the thought in Abigail coming in after the death of Samuel?

J.T. Well, the book largely deals with David, but Samuel gives character to it. We are dealing with Abigail who is a type of the assembly, and she comes in after the death of Samuel.

J.T.Jr. Would the understanding of 1 Corinthians 14, in regard to prophecy, connect with Samuel? Has it not worked out locally, in what has come out distinctively in recent years?

J.T. Yes; I think that is good. Some years back allusion was made to the section of this book which treats of the hill of God, and it was thought the hill of God is marked by the prophetic word.

A.R. It is said of Abigail that she was of good understanding, as if she had profited by the prophetic word.

J.T. She is clearly a type of the assembly, as the bride of Christ. Everything that appertained to her pointed to this. She was a woman of good understanding and of a beautiful countenance, and grace and wisdom marked her; these features enter into the thought of the assembly. And, of course, if we speak of the assembly, we are to look to ourselves and see what part we have in it. It is not simply that we attend meetings, but that we are characterised by the features that are seen in Abigail.

T.E.H. Is there something instructive in the fact that all Israel buried Samuel? There seemed to have been a general state among the people of God at that time that was the product of the truth.

J.T. And so, in many instances, the brethren have

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been made to feel things as one after another of those who have announced the truth have been taken to be with the Lord. And it is a wholesome thing that each one should have before him that to depart to be with Christ is far better.

A.B.P. Is there a link with the prophetic ministry in what Abigail says in verse 30? "And it shall come to pass, when Jehovah shall do to my lord according to all the good that he has spoken concerning thee, and shall appoint thee ruler over Israel ..." She seems to have taken on the prophetic word concerning David.

J.T. Quite so; and doubtless she took character from Samuel.

F.N.W. Allusion has been made to 1 Corinthians 14, where edifying the assembly through prophetic ministry is in view. Would that link with this?

J.T. Quite so; the idea, of course, is building up, and in 1 Corinthians 14 it is "rather that ye may prophesy". We may have ministry, but there is need for prophetic ministry.

R.W.S. Is there any teaching for us in this link which Abigail had with Nabal?

J.T. Well, it is remarkable and requires attention although it is negative, but we should understand what Nabal represents.

A.N.W. Is not prophetic ministry to be generally on positive lines? That chapter in Corinthians speaks of encouragement, consolation, and edification.

J.T. Well, there is much said about what was evil in the first epistle to the Corinthians, and I think that it is quite right to call attention to what is said in this section about Nabal who represents much in the evil sense. Abigail, indeed, calls special attention to him. She says, "Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, Nabal; for as his name is, so is he: Nabal is his name, and folly is with him". That is a very plain word! We cannot ignore the fact of the

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type of man he was, so that we have to look about and see these features of evil, and we have to do with them.

D.McD. Would not Ephesians 4:11 show the importance of the prophets in that they are listed second in the gifts in the assembly?

J.T. Yes, the apostles have gone, but the prophets remain.

Rem. It is said that Nabal was a Calebite.

J.T. He belonged to the family of Caleb. That, in itself, should have meant something, but apparently it did not mean much in his case, for he was not at all like Caleb, although a descendant of his. So that we cannot go by what people have been, it is what they are today. The test is what we are now.

S.M. Would that not be a word for our children?

J.T. I should certainly say so. Therefore, the epistle to the Ephesians stresses the responsibility of the fathers to bring up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

W.W.M. When Abigail heard the report of the young men she did not question it, but made haste; she believed the report and did what was in her power to rectify the wrong that had been done to David. You have often spoken about being quick learners. If we take things on quickly we will get great help in doing them.

J.T. Yes; the young man referred to here is notable. It is said: "And one of Nabal's young men told Abigail, Nabal's wife, saying, Behold, David sent messengers out of the wilderness to bless our master; and he has insulted them. And the men were very good to us, and we were not hurt, neither missed we anything, as long as we companied with them, when we were in the fields. They were a wall to us both by night and day, all the while we were with them feeding the sheep", verses 14 - 16. Now it seems to be of note that this young man's name is not given, so that he would be

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just a young brother who has not yet earned distinction. But sometimes such persons show that they have priestly power and discernment. And this young man clearly represents such persons.

E.A.L. Saul had said to his servants, "Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. And one of the young men answered and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, who is skilled in playing, and he is a valiant man and a man of war, and skilled in speech, and of good presence, and Jehovah is with him", 1 Samuel 16.

A.N.W. The young man you have referred to goes on to say, "And now know and consider what thou wilt do". He did not say what we will do, but commits it all to Abigail, "... know and consider what thou wilt do, for evil is determined against our master".

J.T. So that if we are to consider Abigail to be a type of the assembly, which she is, it would mean that when matters occur which become known to any of us, they should be reported, or laid before the assembly, so that matters can be taken up and dealt with according to divine principles. Otherwise they may lapse.

R.D.G. The young man had the same opinion of Nabal as Abigail had.

J.T. Well, just so.

A.R. Matthew 18 says, "tell it to the assembly"; that is what this young man was doing.

J.T. That is the idea; he was telling it to the assembly, in principle.

A.B.P. Is there not a certain natural honour amongst young people that they do not tell what others do? It is a device that Satan uses to cover up evil. So that our young people should realise that there is a greater obligation upon them as in fellowship, than their ordinary friendships with one another.

J.T. Yes; and if a matter is reported it should always be accompanied with facts; but at the same time

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we cannot ignore a rumour. "It is commonly reported", the apostle himself said. When we get a report we should look into it and ascertain the facts and deal with it according to God.

R.H.S. Would that be seen in Joseph, who brought to his father the evil report of his brethren?

J.T. Very good; that is it exactly.

J.T.Jr. Samuel had to take up such matters when he was a very young man. He had to begin, really, by listening to what God had to say about the house of Eli.

J.T. Just so; and his prophetic power became known from Dan to Beer-sheba; it was recognised that God had established him a prophet. But as we were saying, we cannot ignore any rumour which is current. No one should report anything unless there are facts to support it. But if reports are heard they should be inquired into and, if found to be true, should be dealt with according to God.

D.P. Would Abigail be one who had a clear judgment of Nabal, and true appreciation of David?

J.T. She certainly had a clear judgment about Nabal, and about David too, which is important.

S.M. Is not discernment a very important feature?

J.T. David says to Abigail, "blessed be thy discernment", and we certainly should be discerning if we have to deal with matters of which we have been speaking. But, at the same time, there should always be facts to bring forward to support any statement or allegation against any.

L.W. Abigail called David lord about thirteen times in this chapter. Is that in line with her discernment?

J.T. Well, it certainly shows respect.

Rem. The young man about whom we are speaking had facts; what he brought to Abigail was factual.

W.P. Would you say that in relation to exercising matters, priestliness is required?

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J.T. I think that is good. We should always be priestly, because only priests have a voice in the assembly. Therefore we should all seek to be priestly, and if we have difficult matters we should specially seek to be discerning in them.

R.H.S. That is far different from Nabal's attitude, for it says of him that one could not even speak to him.

J.T. Just so, and sometimes we have this very thing, that persons will not answer us.

R.W.S. The young men said of David's men, "They were a wall to us both by night and day, all the while we were with them feeding the sheep". There may be some point in the fact that David was a keeper of sheep and Nabal's young men were also, whereas what marks Nabal is that he was shearing the sheep. Is there something in that?

J.T. Well. Nabal typifies one who takes away from the sheep; he was doing it for his own ends. David was a keeper of the sheep, and Rachel was a shepherdess.

J.E. Is it suggested that one who heeds the prophetic word, and is governed by it, is delivered from ungodly associations, as Abigail, was delivered from her link with Nabal?

J.T. Yes; he died a very short time after this. "And it came to pass in about ten days that Jehovah smote Nabal, and he died", showing that the government of God comes in in such cases. We can count on that.

A.R. Abigail is marked by liberality, is she not? She took two hundred loaves and two bottles of wine and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and a hundred raisin cakes, and two hundred fig cakes, and so on.

J.T. It would seem as if the facts leading up to her union with David all show that she was characterised as of the assembly, in type; she has the character of the assembly.

J.T.Jr. The word of the young man would be like

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a prophetic word. It stirred her up. It says, "And now know and consider what thou wilt do", verse 17, as if to arouse the assembly to do what is right. The assembly would have to apply its faculty, the mind of Christ. Things would be talked over to get the facts, as we have been saying.

J.T. Hence, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding", 2 Timothy 2:7. She had to do that; it was for her to consider the facts with which the young man had acquainted her.

T.N.W. Why did she not tell her husband?

J.T. I think that she had no confidence in him, he could not help at all. She knew exactly what he was. What she said to David was the truth: "Nabal is his name and folly is with him". She was concerned about the truth, and then she was liberal; what she did was all in keeping with what she typified.

A.N.W. I suppose one of the assembly could hardly tell an unconverted husband much; there would be many things she would have to keep back.

J.T. Quite so.

R.D.G. In verse 24 Abigail is prepared to assume the iniquity of Nabal, while in verse 28 she asks forgiveness.

J.T. Very good; it says, "And when Abigail saw David, she hasted and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, and fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord, upon me let the iniquity be; but let thy handmaid; I pray thee, speak in thine ears, and hear the words of thy handmaid. Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, Nabal", etc. So she has no question as to him; even though she is his wife she does not hesitate to say the whole truth about him.

R.W.D. It says in verse 22, "... if I leave of all that is his by the morning light any male". This action of the assembly saves the young brothers.

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J.T. Well, quite so; David had asserted that he would go the whole way in dealing with the evil.

J.H. Did not Abigail seem confident that David would listen to priestly advice? "As thy soul liveth, seeing Jehovah has restrained thee from coming with bloodshed ..." She seemed to realise that David would pay attention.

J.T. And, similarly, David has a true estimate of her: "And David said to Abigail, Blessed be Jehovah, the God of Israel" (he connects the whole matter with the God of Israel, which is an immense thing), "who sent thee this day to meet me". This is what he says, and then he says further, "And blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou", and so David has a true estimate of Abigail. And undoubtedly, under God, the whole matter was leading up to the union mentioned in verse 39.

A.R. Does she have a judgment of Saul also?

J.T. "A man is risen up to pursue thee". That was Saul; she widens out as to the whole position; and if we are of the assembly we should have a true judgment about everything.

A.E.W. In the end of verse 26, the suggestion is, "they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal". Does Jehovah use her judgment as to Nabal, in relation to his death? I was thinking of the scripture in John 20, "Whose soever sins ye retain", as though the assembly judgment is carried out here, in type.

J.T. Very good!

A.B. Would Abigail be regarded by David because he was marked by the fear of God? Nabal had no fear of God before him.

J.T. Quite so.

D.P. Is there any point in that Abigail is seen coming down, in verse 20, and David is seen coming down to meet her?

J.T. They were on the same level, you might say.

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It says in verse 18, "And Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two skin-bottles of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and a hundred raisin-cakes, and two hundred fig-cakes, and laid them on asses. And she said to her young men, Go on before me; behold, I come after you. But she did not tell her husband Nabal. And as she was riding on the ass, and coming down by the covert of the hill, behold, David and his men came down opposite to her; and she met them". That is to say, the whole matter is under God, and it brings out these remarkable features in Abigail which speak of the assembly and the discernment that marks it.

J.MacD. Is Nabal a type of the law? Abigail was bound by the law to her husband.

J.T. I do not know that he is a type of the law; he is an evil man, whereas the law is holy, just and good.

R.W.S. In Acts 4 the priests and elders took the apostles and beat them, and it says, when they came to their own company they prayed to God as Despot. It is a militant position: "And when they had prayed, the place in which they were assembled shook, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and spoke the word of God with boldness". I wondered if there is a correspondence there to Nabal in the chief priests and elders and what they had done, and then the intelligence and militancy of the apostles would be what Abigail represents.

J.T. Quite so, I would think that is in full accordance with what is said here.

R.W.S. They addressed God as Despot.

J.T. It is an unusual title. It is a question of dealing with the evil which was at Jerusalem. They refer to "this city". The evil was there.

R.W.S. Is there any allusion to the Spirit in this type, in any of the attending circumstances?

J.T. Well, I am not sure.

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A.N.W. Verse 23 seems to strike a similar note to Genesis 24"And when Abigail saw David, she hasted and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground". I thought of the personal agility which is noticeable in Rebecca at the sight of Isaac. When he comes into view, in Genesis 24, Rebecca springs off the camel and covers herself.

J.T. At the end of this passage we see that the feminine side is stressed in Abigail, for she takes five of her damsels with her. It is an important matter that the feminine side should be stressed if we belong to the assembly; ultimately the masculine is in Christ and the feminine in the assembly, that is the way the matter will work out in the purpose of God.

T.N.W. When David sent and communed with Abigail to take her as wife, the servants seemed to be so fully representative of David that she accepted the matter and worshipped. Is there any suggestion there of the Spirit in the servants?

J.T. Well, I am not sure. We are trying to get something of the Spirit directly, but we are also saying something as to the feminine side of things which Abigail would represent in this type, which is a remarkable one of the assembly from the feminine side. Abigail is said to be a woman of good understanding and of a beautiful countenance, and many graces are seen in her. She is very manifestly a type of the assembly. And these graces are to be found in ourselves, because the application of the type must be made to ourselves. As here in this hall today there must be some representation of what marks the assembly.

A.R. David says, in verse 33, "blessed be thy discernment, and blessed be thou". Then, in verse 35 it says, "I have hearkened to thy voice, and have accepted thy person", showing the place she had in David's mind.

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J.T. Quite so. He says, "I ... have accepted thy person".

A.R. The feminine idea was seen personally in her.

J.T. That is the idea. If we are dealing with any number of christians, where is the assembly? If we are dealing with the assembly, where is it? Well, it is for each one of us to look into his own heart, and his own circumstances and the things that characterise him, to be sure that there is that which represents the features of the assembly.

A.T.D. Does verse 39 lead up to union? It says, "And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her as his wife. And the servants of David came to Abigail to Carmel, and spoke to her".

J.T. That was in view of marriage relations; the matter is clear now. It says, "And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be Jehovah, who has pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and has kept back his servant from evil; but Jehovah has returned Nabal's evil upon his own head. And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her as his wife". Now we come to the actual facts of the case; it is a marital question. And the marital side will bring out that the masculine is seen in Christ, and the feminine is in the assembly. This is something which may be difficult for the brethren to understand, but I am sure that it is important that it should be understood.

A.A.T. David was still rejected, so that I suppose this has an application at the present time during the rejection of Christ?

J.T. Well, quite so. The assembly is for Him, and the breaking of bread is to bring out that we are on His side, "... on thy side, thou son of Jesse".

A.P. Abigail, in type, has the mind of Christ. At the end of verse 41, she was ready to wash the feet of David's servants. Does not that correspond with

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Philippians 2, the subjection that marks her being the indication that she was marked by the lowly mind seen in Christ personally?

J.T. Just so, she is like the Lord. He washed the disciples' feet and He told them to do that to one another.

A.N.W. Do you mean with respect to the masculine and the feminine that through eternity we shall have a sense of what is masculine as well as what is feminine?

J.T. Oh! we shall. The sons of God are masculine, the sons of God and the brethren of Christ are both masculine ideas; but the masculine thought is seen fully in Christ. And the sons of God and the brethren of Christ all belong to the assembly, and therefore they have the feminine features as well, but the only fully masculine feature is in Christ. I do not know if that is understood by all the brethren, but I think it should be considered.

A.A.T. Is it proper, in the morning meeting, to have feelings that are feminine and feelings that are masculine?

J.T. Just so.

A.B.P. Is it worthy of note that when Abigail acted in a militant way, she sent her young men before her; when she came to be the wife of David, she had five damsels follow her? Is the dual position to be seen in those two verses?

J.T. "Abigail hasted, and arose, and rode upon an ass, with five damsels of hers that followed her". The full feminine thought is there.

R.H.S. When Christ presents the assembly to Himself will she not be viewed in a feminine way, but in eternity, in the service of God, will it be more what is masculine?

J.T. Well, you can trace both thoughts in 2 Corinthians. Take, for example, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ".

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That includes all the saints at Corinth but it is clearly a feminine thought. A good deal more can be said, but the matter is very much misunderstood.

J.T.Jr. The types we have been considering in the Old Testament are all feminine, typical of the bride. These types are intended to help us to understand the feminine side.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Do you think that we should be able to apply to ourselves the idea of brethren, the assembly and the sons of God? Is it possible to work these out in ourselves?

J.T. Yes, that is true, but we have to compare that with the other passage that we have just quoted: "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ". The "one man" is the masculine; the whole of the saints at Corinth are viewed as feminine. This is a great matter and it is worth looking into.

F.S.C. Is there any point in that the young men in our chapter are called "her young men" in verse 19?

J.T. Well, they are young persons who are capable of doing things, viewed as a little greater than servants, but nevertheless servants. They are just said to be young men. The five damsels that follow Abigail are distinctively feminine, but they refer to manhood, for the numeral five refers to the senses of a man; but then the word man covers man and woman in Genesis 1.

A.R. Would it be right to seek to clothe the saints in a locality where you break bread, with the feminine thought, both brothers and sisters?

J.T. Well, it is a question of what spiritual power there may be, because, ultimately, we will come to that; that is the mind of God as to us. It is Christ and the assembly. The assembly is the feminine; Christ is the masculine. He gave Himself for the assembly.

J.A.P. So that, "this shall be called Woman" is the prime thought as to the assembly?

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J.T. Quite so. "This shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man", Genesis 2:23. And "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them ..." That is, the word man covers both man and woman.

J.A.P. Are there certain things found in the assembly now, that is, certain features which are enlarged on in time, such as "quit yourselves like men", and other scriptures, which will not be enlarged on in heaven? Will it be more a question of the feminine side there?

J.T. There are conditions, while we are here as in time, that will not be with us when we have our glorified bodies, because the feminine will mark the whole assembly and the masculine will be Christ; it will be Christ and the assembly.

Ques. Is not the assembly, composed of male and female? Are not sons of God both male and female, and the brethren of Christ male and female?

J.T. Well, that is what it is down here at the present time, but it is not the idea in eternity; we are now seeking to develop the eternal thought of God, what was in His mind before the ages of time.

S.W. But in our Lord's day morning meeting, are we not able, in some measure, to touch this feminine side?

J.T. Well, that is the idea; it is a question of what we are capable of. And, of course, we have the Holy Spirit, but how much room are we giving Him? He must have room. We may have the light and go by that, but for the power and the feelings attached to the assembly, we need the Spirit. If we make way for Him, and we do to some extent, but if we make full way for Him, we shall arrive more fully at the thought of God for eternity.

E.E.H. In Revelation 21 it says, "the tabernacle of God is with men". What are we to understand from that? Is it feminine or masculine?

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J.T. Well. John heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men". It is with men, not with Jews only. The word men there is over against the Jews, or Israel. At the beginning of Christianity the Jew had everything, but it gradually became a question of men; and Paul said, as to the nations, that they would receive the salvation which the Jew refused.

W.M.M. Is it right for us to think of the woman as the product of the death of Christ? It says as to Adam that "he found no help-mate, his like". The feminine idea of the assembly, therefore, would be the product of the death of Christ, the Spirit's work being involved in her formation. And would you say that in eternity she will represent the full feminine idea?

J.T. Just so; so that Adam being put into the deep sleep was figurative of death; he had to die, in principle, to get his wife, for she was taken out of man.

R.W.S. Is the allusion to "the tabernacle of God is with men" a millennial thought?

J.T. It is over against what the Jews might claim. The Jew was rejected and man takes his place. And so Stephen had the Son of man in his mind, for he said, "I behold ... the Son of man standing at the right hand of God". It is now a question of man, not the Jew, because the Jew had degraded himself so that he is no longer in the lead of Christianity.

R.W.S. So that we have the dual thought in the assembly, if I understood you rightly. There is the dual thought of the feminine and masculine, as seen in the bride or in the sons of God, whereas the masculine is always seen in Christ.

J.T. That is what I would say. When the assembly is in mind -- Christ and the assembly -- it is a feminine idea. And that includes all the saints in the assembly; Christ and the assembly.

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A.P. Is the masculine side seen in relation to public matters, whereas the feminine side is more for Christ personally.

J.T. Very good; I would say that.

R.H.S. Luke 20 refers to "sons of God, being sons of the resurrection". Does that carry the masculine side through to eternity?

J.T. I think so.

J.A.P. When we refer to Christ and the assembly, the assembly is exclusively feminine?

J.T. I would think that is the truth; it is the Man and the woman, and the Man is Christ, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", and that covers all the saints at Corinth.

Rem. So that the thought of man is seen in the power of Christ, whereas the thought of the woman is in subjection.

J.T. Just so, the power of Christ and the subjection of the woman.

S.J.M. Is the masculine side militant?

J.T. Well, if necessary. If we go through the prophets we shall see that the Lord did things Himself, at times, in a militant way.

R.D.G. Is it not the masculine side when we appear before God as sons in the latter part of the morning meeting?

J.T. Well, just so; but we must follow through the full thought, which is Christ and the assembly; not Christ and the sons. In relation to sons, it is a question of God bringing many sons to glory. In relation to the assembly, it is Christ and the assembly.

Ques. At what time does the thought of Christ's brethren come into the morning meeting?

J.T. After the breaking of bread, I would think, and then the Spirit of God would lead us on to our relations with the Father. Room is to be made for the Spirit of God to be free as amongst us; everything

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depends upon His being with us, so that we get things rightly as we proceed.

G.H. Is the expression in 1 Corinthians 1:2, "the assembly of God which is in Corinth", a feminine idea?

J.T. Oh, that refers to a vessel down here for God's service; it is the assembly as the vessel for His service here.

J.T.Jr. Is it not in 1 Corinthians 12, that the truth as to the Spirit having formed the assembly is worked out? "For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ".

J.T. Just so; "so also is the Christ".

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THE ASSEMBLY (12)

Ephesians 1:15 - 23; Ephesians 3:14 - 21; Hebrews 2:11, 12

J.T. It will be observed that the passages read in Ephesians are in the form of prayers, both in chapter 1 and in chapter 3; they are prayers of the apostle Paul. They have been read on that account, but what is in mind, of course, is the assembly, and Ephesians presents the highest phase of the truth as to it. Much is said, as to it in the book of Revelation too, but the highest phase of assembly truth is seen in Ephesians. The assembly in Ephesians is seen as usable in the divine service. In the first chapter it is spoken of as the body of Christ. It says, "... which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all". It may be thought that "him who fills all in all" would refer to God, but it is clear from the allusion here that it is to the Lord Jesus Himself; it is a question of His body, and that it is His fulness. Chapter 3 flows into a sort of doxology at the end of the chapter and points out that there is to be glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. The age of ages would point to eternity. Then it is thought that the passage read in Hebrews is plainly an allusion to the assembly as the sphere of the divine service, and in this connection a quotation from the Old Testament is used, quoting from Psalm 22"in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises".

J.T.Jr. The types we have been considering are feminine, mostly from the Old Testament; and now these references to the assembly which are before us appear to be feminine also. But the actual working out of this in our souls may not be understood by many of us.

J.T. The allusion in the epistle to the Corinthians to the saints at Corinth would point to the feminine. The apostle says, "I have espoused you unto one man

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to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

A.N.W. In Ephesians 5 the word is, "Husbands, love your own wives, even as the Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it". The reference to husbands and wives there is based upon the love of Christ for the assembly and I wondered if that would not confirm the feminine feature. Then, later on, in verse 31, it says, "Because of this a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall be united to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. This mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly".

J.T. I trust that the brethren will be led on to think of the assembly as it functions in the divine service on the first day of the week in the breaking of bread and all that flows out of it; it is a function of the assembly.

S.W. You made mention of the fact that both passages we have read in Ephesians are prayers. Firstly it was that they might be enlightened in the eyes of their heart so that they should know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints. Would that lead on to the next passage which speaks of the breadth and length and depth and height?

J.T. And finally to glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus. That is the service of God in the assembly.

S.W. And would this be a crowning point, so to speak, to our meetings? Should we reach the service of the assembly toward God?

J.T. We have been considering the types of the assembly each month since last October and there should be some result in our intelligence as to the assembly. So that we finish this series of meetings tonight with the hope that we shall understand the assembly better and function in it more intelligently.

C.E.J. Would you say a little as to the assembly

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being the fulness of Him who fills all in all? I am thinking of the word fulness.

J.T. The thought here is that the assembly is the fulness of Christ, she fills out what is needed in the divine thought as to Him in the universe; the assembly is needed for Him, and there is no family like it. The assembly is the greatest family in the universe, greater than angels.

C.E.J. Have you in mind that she is needed for divine service?

J.T. Quite so; it is the filling out of the service; the references that we find in these passages would show that; as for instance, Ephesians 3:21, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". It is "in the assembly in Christ Jesus". It is positional, but it is unto all generations of the age of ages. This is an eternal position.

E.E.H. Would that correspond with Genesis 2? "And Jehovah Elohim said, It is not good that Man should be alone; I will make him a help-mate, his like".

J.T. She is needed; Adam needed a counterpart, which refers to a wife. There was a shortage until she was formed. She was formed for Man, and we are told that Jehovah Elohim built her. He built the woman.

A.R. In Genesis 1:28 it says, "And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it". The woman shares in headship there, does she not?

J.T. Quite so, the word Man there covers man and woman. "God said to them"; it is plural.

J.H.E. Of the woman of worth in Proverbs 31 it says, "The heart of her husband confideth in her, and he shall have no lack of spoil. She doeth him good, and not evil, all the days of her life".

J.T. We could hardly get a better verse than that to deal with our subject; it is what the woman is to

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the man. It is Christ and the assembly, showing how essential she is to Him. And it is to be hoped that it will be so with us, that we may get a better view of the assembly in her greatness in the divine service.

J.H.E. Would it be right to say that Paul was specially in the good of this in adding this parenthesis in Ephesians 3?

J.T. It is a long parenthesis, including the whole chapter but for one verse.

A.R. The apostle Paul, in chapter 1, speaks of the Ephesians having love towards all the saints, and then in the last chapter he speaks of loving our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption. Would that be the feminine side operating in the assembly at Ephesus?

J.T. Quite so; the assembly, as we are speaking of it, is a feminine word; although some of us are masculine, the assembly in general is feminine; hence "the Christ loved the assembly". He gave Himself for the assembly, because He loved her. And so it is that we all should love the saints, the assembly, because of what she is to Christ.

J.T.Jr. Would there be a fulness in Psalm 22 in that it has a feminine title? I was wondering if the assembly would be implied in that. The heading of the Psalm relates to "the hind of the morning".

J.T. Quite so, hind is a feminine word.

J.T.Jr. Do you think there might be an allusion to the fulness in the assembly as rising to the Lord's own thoughts?

J.T. I think so; it is great enough to be His companion, to be His fulness, showing how great it is. Of all the families in the heavens and the earth there is none as great as the assembly.

V.C.L. Are we to be like the sons of Korah, who in Psalm 45 arrive at the greatness of Christ, and with that the idea of the greatness of His companion? It reads, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever", as

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though they were filled with the supremacy of Jesus. And the queen is said to be in clothing of gold, and the king's daughter all glorious within; as though the assembly, within and without, is suitable for Christ.

J.T. It says, "Hearken, daughter", as though there is an appeal, too, and it goes on, "... he is thy Lord, and worship thou him", Psalm 45:10.

A.A.T. Does the assembly have both the masculine and the feminine aspects?

J.T. Well, it is a question of how we view it; but properly the assembly is feminine, as we have been saying. But then we have to make a difference when we come to individuals. Brethren is a masculine thought. God is leading many sons to glory; many sons would be used in a masculine sense. It is a question of the way that Scripture deals with these great matters.

E.A.L. Would the masculine side give a lead? "Go to my brethren", for instance, and the closed doors would suggest that the brethren had taken a stand to shut out what was religious or Jewish so that the Lord could come in happily amongst them and bring in His peace amongst them.

J.T. Well, brethren would be masculine, but it is a question of how the term is used in Scripture.

E.A.L. What I meant is that she who took the message would not be excluded from those whom the Lord terms, "my brethren".

J.T. She was a sister and she spoke to the Lord as Rabboni, which means my Teacher. She was being taught; she was great enough to take a message to the brethren. But the gospel of John does not speak of the assembly in a corporate sense.

J.T.Jr. The assembly is a corporate idea. The sons of God are individuals. We should be able to distinguish in that way, between what the assembly is and what we are as sons of God, or brethren.

J.T. The assembly is clearly a corporate idea in

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2 Corinthians 11 to which we have alluded: "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.That includes all the brothers and sisters in Corinth.

C.E.J. Would the corporate thought be seen in the assembly as His body?

J.T. Clearly; that is just what we get in our passage, and it is the main thought that was in mind for this reading. The passage says that God "has put all things under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:22.

F.S. Do those verses from which you have quoted give us the completion of God's primary thought in regard to man and woman as indicated in Genesis, and thus form a suited setting for the service of God in the completed position?

J.T. Clearly so, and it seems as if it was God's intention that the assembly should be formed of brothers and sisters. That is the idea generally throughout the Scriptures; brothers and sisters.

F.S. Is this a position that we should understand in the service of God, that we are conscious of being in these relations with Christ?

J.T. Exactly, and that sisters -- for we call them sisters -- as on the higher levels of the truth are sons of God as much as the brothers.

J.A.P. In what aspect do we view the assembly in that part of the service of God when we reach the Father? Is that feminine or are we to regard it as masculine?

J.T. Sons of God, viewed as to many persons, would be masculine, but the corporate idea is to be viewed as feminine, as we have already said. The term bride must be feminine. This is seen in Revelation 21 and 22. The bride includes all the saints who form the assembly.

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F.H.L. Have you not said that in the service of God the full thought of manhood is seen in Christ and the assembly?

J.T. That is what I think. In finality the masculine is in Christ, and the assembly is the collective feminine side.

A.R. Is that seen in Ephesians 3:21, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages". Is that the idea of the assembly serving God femininely?

J.T. I think so; from another point of view the collective idea is needed to make up the thought of the Christ, "... so also is the Christ", which would include brothers and sisters.

F.S. Would you say that it is important that consciously we should touch this point in the service of God before moving on to the Father?

J.T. Well, I think that is right, and I think also that when brethren are visiting a locality we should proceed in the service and all join as one, not hold back because there are visitors. The idea of visitation ceases when we rise to the full thought of the service of God in the assembly.

C.A.M. I would like to ask about the words that David uses in 1 Chronicles 29, where he blesses Jehovah in the sight of all the congregation and says: "Thine, Jehovah, is the greatness", and then goes on to say, "thou art exalted as Head above all". The headship of Christ to the assembly comes into our chapter in Ephesians, but is that reference of David a greater thought?

J.T. Well, it would be equivalent, I would think, to Christ's headship. That God is Head is obvious; it is quite right; it must be right; God is Head of all; it says that God must be all in all in 1 Corinthians 15; God must have that place. But in the meantime we are engaged with Christ and the assembly, not God and the

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assembly, exactly, but Christ and the assembly. It is a peculiar thing that enters into the thoughts of God that Christ is to have a companion, a counterpart, as it says in Genesis 2.

C.A.M. I think you have referred to that allusion to headship in 1 Chronicles 29 as the highest point in the Old Testament and I wondered if the reference in Ephesians to "the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints" might not allude to what is typified in David's day.

J.T. Well, if we are thinking of God, then we must make way for Him, that He must be Head. Christ was not seen formally in the Old Testament, in that sense, as He is seen in the New. It is Christ and the assembly in the New Testament. It is God's assembly, too. We have to make allowance for what Scripture says, that it is God's assembly, but when we put the phrase into one, it is a question of Christ and the assembly, and it ought to be left that way. "I speak", the apostle says, "as to Christ, and as to the assembly".

R.W.S. Would the statement, "To him be glory in the assembly", involve that the assembly serves God femininely as well as God being served by sons, so that there is the corporate feminine thought of the assembly serving God, as well as the masculine thought in our service in sonship?

J.T. I think that the assembly, as serving God, would be feminine to God as it is to Christ. Israel was viewed as wife to Jehovah in the Old Testament. Isaiah speaks of this. So that Jehovah is seen as having a wife, in that sense, in Israel. But in our dispensation the wifely feature develops in the assembly, Christ being the Bridegroom. This works out in the service of God; but it is Christ and the assembly.

R.W.S. I had thought of the service of God as implying sonship, and had never thought of God being served in a feminine way by the assembly.

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J.T. Well, as I said, it is in Christ and the assembly. Hence in Matthew God is seen, in parable, making a wedding feast for His Son. This is equivalent to the marriage of the Lamb and so "He that has the bride is the bridegroom". In the service of God the Father has joy in the bride.

E.A.L. In Hebrews 2 there are three thoughts: the sons led to glory in verse 10, and then the brethren, and then the assembly. Would the "many sons" and "the brethren" carry the idea of what is masculine, though including the sisters, and "the assembly" suggest the feminine?

J.T. Well, just so. And the Father has part in all that. "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises" would involve the assembly in the corporate sense.

A.N.W. In Revelation 21:10, 11, the heavenly city is seen coming down out of heaven from God having the glory of God, and the word is, "Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone". That would suggest femininity, would it not?

J.T. Very good. Then in verse 2 the assembly comes down from God out of the heaven as a bride adorned for her husband. John says, "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband". Well, that is the feminine thought, it is collective.

A.N.W. In verse 10 it is "the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her shining ..."

J.T. What we are saying is all very clear that the collective side is feminine, and ultimately the feminine will be the assembly and the masculine will be Christ: Christ and the assembly. But this is but a feature, and does not exclude the masculine side in the sons, as in Hebrews 2:10.

W.A.T. Revelation 21:15 speaks of the city and

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its gates. Would that suggest that the public side would be masculine, but the thought of her shining stresses the feminine side?

J.T. "Its" is the neuter, and it is right under certain conditions. It is a question of language; and we are safe in going by what Scripture uses. But the effect on the mind is feminine in accordance with verse 11.

V.C.L. The 'bride' joins with the Spirit in saying, 'Come', and there is glory to God in the assembly. Would the feminine idea therefore link on with each of the divine Persons?

J.T. Well, the Spirit is never regarded as having the bride, it is only Christ who has the bride. She is the Lamb's wife. Only in the Old Testament Jehovah is regarded as having Israel as wife. But the Spirit is a divine Person. He is God and He is said to love and we cannot exclude Him from the joys attributable to other divine Persons.

W.A.T. You have been stressing Christ and the assembly. I notice that, in these passages which we have read in Ephesians, the expression the Christ is frequently used. Does that expression refer to Christ and the assembly?

J.T. Are you enquiring if the expression the Christ includes the assembly?

W.A.T. Yes.

J.T. Well, "so also is the Christ" in 1 Corinthians 12:12 might include the assembly, but the Christ as generally used is not feminine, it is always masculine.

W.A.T. Does it include the assembly here when it speaks of "the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge", Ephesians 3:19?

J.T. No. "The love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge" is a question of Christ Himself, it is a question of His love; it is not a combination of Christ and the assembly. That love is Christ's love.

C.E.J. In relation to the service. Godward, in

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verse 20, we have the expression: "But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think, ... to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus". Would you say as to whom "to him" refers? Is it the Father or is it God?

J.T. That is God, I would say.

C.E.J. Would that be God in the sense in which the Lord refers to Him when He says, "my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"?

J.T. Well, it would have the same force.

D.P. The footnote to the word assembly in Exodus 12:3 says, 'a corporate person before God'. Is that feminine?

J.T. That is a collective word. It is a question of how the Old Testament treats of these cases, and I would think it is a masculine idea. The sense is that it is responsible characteristically and would therefore be masculine.

J.T.Jr. Israel was viewed as a son. The corporate idea was there: "Let my son go". But sonship applies to us individually.

J.H.E. In Ephesians 3 the apostle's prayer is: "... in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ". The Spirit is brought in there that we may be able to have right feelings and intelligence. Is that not important?

J.T. Quite so, it is the power of the Spirit.

R.W.S. There seems to be an element of mystery in the way that this word assembly has been taken out of the Greek. It is used in Acts 19:32 in relation to the regular assembly of the people. Is there not mystery

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in the way that the Spirit of God has elevated this word, having taken it out of the ordinary affairs of men and surrounded it with these holy thoughts which we are now exploring in Ephesians?

J.T. Just so. So that we are dealing with it from a spiritual standpoint, and we have said much about the assembly on the feminine side. But if we refer to Hebrews 12:23, for instance, "... the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven", the assembly spoken of in that sense is masculine: That refers to a group of persons gathered out and used in a governmental way.

R.W.S. That is very illuminating, for it makes it all the more marvellous that when we bring in the spiritual side the assembly is the fulness of Christ.

J.T. Yes, it is the way that the Spirit of God uses the word assembly in Ephesians 5, that makes it a feminine thought. But if it is used in relation to an assembly to govern a country such as Greece, for instance, then it would be a masculine thought.

G.H. Would "the assembly of God which is in Corinth" be masculine or feminine.

J.T. Well, in such expressions it is a question of what the meaning is. "The assembly of God which is in Corinth", I would say, is a masculine thought.

R.W.S. While Paul speaks of "every family" in his prayer, saying, "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on the earth is named", he really only enlarges upon one family. He leaves the others and enlarges on the assembly.

J.T. Yes. In the first chapter we have just one family in mind; that is, the assembly. We belong to it. It is "blessed ... with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ".

T.N.W. In the last verse of chapter 3 reference is made to "all generations of the age of ages". Is one corporate thought in mind there?

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J.T. It is there a matter of glory to God in the assembly in Christ Jesus. That is the thought we are dealing with this evening.

T.N.W. And the assembly is competent to fill out the position given to it?

J.T. Yes, and it will be eternally so: "unto all generations of the age of ages". But, as we have seen, there are also the features of sonship and the brethren of Christ.

E.E.H. How does the idea of sonship fit into the assembly?

J.T. Well, it does fit in, it is a question of how Scripture uses that great thought; so the Father is bringing many sons to glory; that is masculine.

E.E.H. When we consider ourselves in relation to the Father the thought of sonship is prominent, and when we consider ourselves in relation to Christ as His bride or wife the relation is feminine, is that the idea?

J.T. That is the idea exactly. It is just a question of scriptural usage, which, of course, we are safe in following. We want to be with God and He is using certain words, and certain ways of speaking and we should follow them.

C.A.M. Is that not seen in Revelation 21, which has been alluded to in connection with the feminine side? Just a little further on in the chapter it says, "He that overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son", verse 7.

J.T. That latter reference is masculine, clearly.

C.A.M. Yes, I thought it emphasised what you were saying, inasmuch as both the feminine and the masculine come into the text but each in its own setting.

J.T. Quite so, "I will be to him God, and he shall be to me son", is masculine.

J.A.P. You have said that sonship is individual. On the Lord's day morning when we are speaking to the

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Father in the light of sonship, are we viewed as so many individuals?

J.T. That is right, as sons of God. That is what Hebrews says; He is "bringing many sons to glory"; it is not one son, but many sons.

R.J.D. What will our status be when we reach the eternal condition as set out in 1 Corinthians 15? Is it viewed femininely, or as masculine?

J.T. The assembly will be the bride of Christ for ever, she is given to Him; it is so regarded in the epistle to the Ephesians. But as we remarked already, there are also the brethren of Christ and our relation in sonship.

T.E.H. Matthew 16:18 says, "on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". How do we view the assembly there?

J.T. There is a variation there, for evidently the thought is that it would be used in the effectuation of His thoughts and purposes. Psalm 45 may be linked with it.

S.W. As we progress in the morning meeting in the service of God, and approach the Father, that is in our relation as sons, but we also understand that we are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ. I am not quite clear as to entering into this service individually as sons, if we are together in the corporate sense.

J.T. As sons, we are so many persons.

A.R. It says in Ephesians 2:5, "... has quickened us with the Christ, (ye are saved by grace,) and has raised us up together". Is the quickening there equivalent to the building of the woman in Genesis 2?

J.T. Yes, it is; the collective thought is there all the way through.

S.W. That is the reason I asked the question as to sonship.

J.T. But sons are never spoken of collectively, or corporately.

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W.A.T. The fact that sonship is not collective is seen in Galatians 4:6, "God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts". That is not a collective thought; the sense is 'in each heart'.

J.T. It is individual, as we have said. We cry "Abba, Father" as sons.

F.N.W. Does sonship provide God with a certain pleasure in variety of personalities, whereas what He has in the assembly, in a corporate sense, is one idea.

J.T. Just so, if we speak of the assembly as such, but individuals composing it are sons. We have the sons of God, for instance, in the book of Job. It says that they shouted for joy; and similarly, when we are spoken of as sons it is in the masculine sense; even though the sisters are included, the idea is masculine.

A.R. In Hebrews 2, it says, "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". Does that involve all the saints?

J.T. I think so, that is the collective thought of the saints: "in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises". The word is hymn really; the saints join in the hymning, but the Lord Jesus is said to do it.

A.R. That is more extensive than the local gathering?

J.T. Quite so; it is the universal thought, "in the midst of the assembly" is universal.

W.W.M. Does it help in understanding the feminine thought that it is one woman? It is Christ and the assembly. But when the Lord leads the assembly into the presence of the Father, she is there in the family relationship and has the status of sonship.

J.T. Yes. If we are dealing with sons it is so many persons and it is masculine.

R.H.S. What is meant by the "assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven"?

J.T. It is characteristic; it is in a list of about eight things that are mentioned in Hebrews 12. Amongst these

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is the assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven; it is a distinction that belongs to the assembly. And in this case as well as in others it is a matter of finding out what the word means in its original use. It is a question of language or grammar as to the word used.

F.S. How does the thought of sonship stand in relation to Christ?

J.T. We are never said to be sons of Christ; we are sons of God. But then, when we get down to facts. Christ is said to be God in the Scriptures, and the Father is said to be God, too.