Pages 1 to 532 -- Readings on "Man" from "Notes of Readings in New York and other Ministry", 1949 to 1952 (Volumes 182, 187 and 190).
Genesis 1:26,27; Psalm 8:3 - 9; Hebrews 2:5 - 10
J.T. The subject suggested for this series of readings is Man. The passages read are, as the brethren will understand, just preliminary to the subject which will, if God permit, require twelve readings. It is hoped that these scriptures will open up to us, beginning, as they do, with Genesis 1 and going on almost to the end of the New Testament in the epistle to the Hebrews. It is to be observed that the first time God said, "Let us", it is to bring out this matter of manhood: "Let us make man in our image". "Male and female", it says, "created he them", and they were to have dominion. The feminine is included in the statement in verse 27, yet the woman did not appear until chapter 2; and in that chapter we have the name "Jehovah" included in the divine titles, as if there are peculiar feelings of affection as the thought of man comes into view. Then as we shall see as we proceed, the New Testament adds the idea of Christ, the Lord Jesus, as indeed His name is; we see Jesus, because that is the prime thought to be reached, not simply man, but Jesus. Then it is to be noted in the second chapter that although the lower creatures are named by Adam, yet he found, it is said, no counterpart, his like. Adam himself, it would seem, had in mind to find some such one, but he did not find her; but God found her for him. All that leads up to the grand thought of the assembly, as Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32.
A.B.P. Is the woman seen as complementary to the man?
J.T. Well, it says in chapter 2:20, "And Man gave names to all cattle", Genesis 2:20. The word Man is written
with a capital. I should have mentioned at first that there are probably twenty terms in Scripture denoting manhood, words used for "man", which indicates in itself what a subject it is. So in this 20th verse it is said, "And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like" Genesis 2:20. It is not said that God did not find her, but that he found no helpmate, his like. Then it says in verse 21, "And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh" Genesis 2:21 - 24.
So that the subject now before us is clearly laid out in these early verses of Scripture. It also says in chapter 2 that "there was no man to till the ground But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul" Genesis 2:5 - 7. So that the account is made very clear to us, the second chapter adding greatly to the facts of the first chapter.
R.W.S. How do you view the "us" of verse 26? "And God said, Let us make man"
J.T. The three divine Persons may be involved; otherwise it might be simply the "us" of dignity But I think it is safer to regard it that the three divine Persons are involved.
L.W. How should we look at what Elihu says in Job 33:4 in relation to this matter? He says, "The
Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life", Job 33:4.
J.T. That is simply a statement of facts; it might be said of Adam too; only as we come down the line to a great number of persons one of them can designate things, he can give an account of himself.
A.R. There appear to be two meanings to this word 'man:' there is one meaning in verse 26 and another in verse 27.
J.T. Yes; the first one may mean 'red earth', that is the accepted meaning of it; the note says 'earthy', but the word 'red' is alleged to enter into it. In any case it would be 'earthy'.
A.R. Does 'the Adam' (verse 27), include the woman?
J.T. That involves another name still; Ish is man and Ishshah is woman.
A.R. Would it be right to say that the woman is included in the second word for man?
J.T. In the divine mind she was included in verse 26, but we can see as we read on that she was not actually included; God built her, a remarkable thing. It is the first time that we get the word 'built', and it refers to woman. It does not say of Adam that he was built.
R.W.S. Is there some distinction as to that, in that male and female are created; and would it be right to say that the assembly is created?
C.F.E. Why do you think it was in the mind of God that man should be in full maturity at the beginning, 'man' and not 'child'?
J.T. He was not born, you mean, quite so; it does not say that he was born, he was created, or made. We might say all others were born.
J.T.Jr. Much had come in prior to this reference to man. This is the sixth day, and as you pointed
out, it says, "Let us", whereas it does not say that as to prior matters on the previous days. So that you have the creation of all else up to this point till you have the cattle and then man.
J.T. So that the thing becomes extremely affecting because it has in mind the Lord Jesus; it has in mind the birth of the Lord Jesus; that was in the mind of God.
A.R. You made a remark some time ago as to why God waited until the sixth day to create man.
J.T. That is a question that has to be considered. Why had He to wait? But He did wait.
V.C.L. You spoke recently as to the manner of what was good being in God's mind. On the sixth day it says God saw that it was very good. Does that link on with this matter of man?
J.T. Just so. And why did He make angels before He made man? That is another question; and there is no sex mentioned as regards angels, while there is as regards man.
A.N.W. The cattle are brought into being, apparently, the same day as man. What is there in that? "Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind". The whole system seems not to be complete until the man comes in verse 26.
J.T. And then the further instruction we have as to him; it is not simply a question of creation or formation, though there is formation; but in chapter 2:5,6 it says, "And there was no man to till the ground. But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground. And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul", Genesis 2:5 - 7. So that he is unique in that God breathed into him; not even his wife has the same place of uniqueness.
C.A.M. Verse 20 says, "As for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:20. You were referring to it just now, and to the matter of angels. Would a verse like that show how different man was from the order of angels, in that there was something in Adam which required a helpmate?
J.T. Clearly; "I will make him a helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:18. God says. Although Adam himself evidently had the thought, yet God had it too, and in a fuller way than Adam; so that God had foreseen the need in causing Adam to become asleep. Thus the figure of death comes in, you might say, to bring out the figure of the assembly.
C.A.M. I suppose it would be right to say that in creating Adam God so created him that he would not be complete without this addition?
J.T. That is right, I would say that.
S.J.M. The Lord uses the same word here for building the woman as in Matthew 16 where He says, "On this rock I will build my assembly", Matthew 16:18. Does that fit in here?
J.T. Yes, so that we can see that these wonderful things were in the divine mind from the very outset, from Genesis 1 right down: "on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18. It is not that hades' gates shall not prevail against God, but against 'it'. The 'it' is remarkable, the 'it' is the assembly.
G.H. What is the thought of "in our image" and "after our likeness"?
J.T. Well, image is representation, and likeness is just what the word says like God. The man represents God and he is like God. That could not be said of angels.
Rem. Man is so important according to God that the divine mind called him into being; it was not as with the other creatures where God said, "Let there be light", Genesis 1:3.
and "Let the waters swarm", Genesis 1:20 and so forth. With man He said, "Let us".
J.T. Yes, the "us" is mentioned there for the first time, as if it was a special matter, a peculiar matter, the only one of its kind really. And it points to Christ, I think.
F.S.C. Why are the absence of rain and the absence of man put together here?
J.T. The absence of rain was made up for by the mist. Chapter 1:26 gives the fact that God made man; it says, "Let us make man in our image", but we have to see that it was anticipative; we have to wait for chapter 2:5 to get the facts, as if we are given to understand that the matter is very important. It is mentioned twice as to man, in chapter 1 and in chapter 2, and in much more detail in chapter 2; and then again as to woman, how she was formed; she was formed in an entirely different way from Adam, she was built, as if we are to be reminded that the assembly is built. It is a remarkable thing.
E.A.L. Not only was the building of the woman entirely God's matter, but also the thought behind it, would you say? Because it does not appear here that Adam desired a wife; it does not say so in Scripture, does it?
J.T. It is just a question of verse 20: "Man gave names", it says, "to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:20. It does not say that God did not find, but that Adam did not find.
E.A.L. But the thought behind the building of a woman was not that of another Adam, that is what I meant; it was not to be of his own sex. Was not the thought behind it purely God's matter?
J.T. Oh, quite so, but it was Adam's matter, too, for it says he found no helpmate, his like. And his
like would mean like himself, only in the feminine sense; as one has said, It is myself over again. So Adam might say, It is myself over again. It is a female instead of a male, but it is the same idea.
Ques. In the antitype, did the Lord have any feelings like these you were alluding to in verse 20?
J.T. Just what is in your mind as to the antitype?
Ques. I am thinking of the Lord when He came here according to the gospels, what did He find? Did He find anything for Himself, or did it await the coming of the Spirit?
J.T. Well, it is a question of our minds coming into action as we are here together to help each other; as to whether there is anything in the gospels that would suggest to the Lord's mind this idea that we are now dealing with.
S.J.M. I was thinking of the Lord seeking; He came as a merchantman seeking goodly pearls, it says; and when He had found one pearl of great price, He sold all that He had and purchased it.
J.T. That is good, that is a direct allusion I would say to this whole matter.
A.N.W. Would not the beauty that He saw be but the reflection of Himself? The pearl was a beautiful one but was not that beauty His own reflection?
J.T. So that as I was saying -- it is not my own remark -- Adam could say, It is myself over again; only a woman instead of a man. We must understand therefore that the assembly is Christ over again, only in the feminine sense. So that the real idea must develop in the sense that Christ represents the masculine and the assembly represents the feminine.
J.H.E. Does Ephesians 1 help? It says, "According as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love; having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself", Ephesians 1:4,5.
It was necessary that fulness might come into the matter.
J.T. I think that you are quite right; it is something to add to what we are talking about, and the gospels help us in this great subject.
A.R. Did Saul of Tarsus learn what you have been saying when the Lord said to him, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest"? Is that Himself over again, on earth?
J.T.Jr. The idea of the image must have been on Adam's mind when he was looking at the animals as they came; what he was looking for would not be this animal, or that. The image must have been what affected him. It was the same form.
J.T. And then, of course, God had to put Adam, as it were, through death; Adam must suffer; not indeed that there was actual suffering, but the figure of the thing is there, that he must go through death, as the Lord Jesus did, in order to have his wife. The Lord Jesus gave Himself for the assembly; He loved the assembly and gave Himself for it.
F.H.L. Then we are entitled to look at the assembly without previous history or taint of sin?
J.T. Just so, that is good; without previous history and without suggestion of sin. It is entirely a question of God, His own suggestion, only that Christ comes into it of course.
V.C.L. In chapter 1 it says, "In the image of God created he him; male and female created he them", as though in chapter 1 they are both in the image of God. In chapter 2 the woman is in Adam's likeness. Does that show the greatness of the man?
J.T. Just so; and then in chapter 5:1 you get a further statement, if you will read it.
V.C.L. "This is the book of Adam's generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created", Genesis 5:1,2.
J.T. I think that is a most remarkable verse, and that is why I suggested it should be read that it should be on our minds.
F.N.W. Is there some instruction in the fact that there is apparently no reference to male and female in regard to the other members of creation until we come to chapter 6, in connection with Noah? Does that show the distinctive place that man has in God's mind?
J.T. It does indeed; and I think the more you ponder it the more you see how distinctive it is, and how it ought to touch our hearts that God Himself was thinking of Christ. Indeed He was thinking of Christ and the assembly. So Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32.
S.W. Would you say a word about man being formed? In chapter 1:27 it says He created man; in the second chapter Man was formed, dust out of the ground. I was wondering if Ephesians 4:12,13 would be in line with the formation of Man? It says, "For the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man", Ephesians 4:12,13. I was wondering if formation enters into that, arriving at the thought of manhood by formation? The woman is builded, the assembly is built, but the man is formed. Would you say that?
A.B.P. What distinction would you make between formation and growth? Ephesians 4 seems to carry the idea of growth, does it not? Whereas you do not have that with Adam.
J.T. I do not think the idea of growth comes in with Adam and Eve. They are full grown I would say; they are not children. It is not the idea of children but of full-grown beings, that is what the figure brings out.
A.B.P. That is why I was wondering about the connection with Ephesians 4, because there it is "until we all arrive ... at the full-grown man", Ephesians 4:13 it is the idea of growth there, is it not?
J.T. That fits in with what we are speaking of, the complete idea of full growth. Of course a child is not that, a child is born and grows up, but what God has in mind in this wonderful figure is formation. But there is creation too, and we have to distinguish between creation and formation.
A.A.T. I notice in Genesis 2:7 it says, "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul", Genesis 2:7. Does not the "living soul" bring in responsibility?
J.T. Well, it brings in the idea of affection. The thought comes in first on the fifth day. In chapter 1:20,21 it says, "And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls", Genesis 1:20 that is to say, affections; that is where you get the idea of affections, in souls, swarms of living souls: "and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good", Genesis 1:21. That is, the fishes and the birds seem to have come in on the same day so that we have to take something out of that too.
A.N.W. Is the spirit linked with the divine breath being breathed into man's nostrils?
J.T. I think so, that is just what it is, it is the divine breath; the spirit of the beast goes downward,
but the spirit of man goes upward, that is, it returns to God who gave it. But then in saying all these things we must ever keep in mind that God had His own treasure, and His own thoughts, and these thoughts are all in Christ; and in making man He had Christ in mind. The remarkable thing is that He waited until the sixth day before He brought it out.
J.T.Jr. Do you think there is something in the fact that it is among the Philippians, in the assembly at Philippi, where Paul began, we might say, the great ministry in Europe, that the truth of the Lord's coming into manhood is brought out? He brings out there the greatness of the stoop, and the coming into manhood in the likeness of men. He speaks of the Lord not considering it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God, but that He humbled Himself and took a bondman's form; and then it says that He took His place in the likeness of men. It is the figure of a man; He came into that. I was wondering whether the fact of all this coming out among the Philippians has point in regard to the matter before us?
J.T. That is very good; and Acts 16 has something to say about that too.
J.T.Jr. In regard to Lydia you mean, with the women out by the river; and then the Lord opened her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul. Then at the end of the chapter it says that Paul returned to Lydia.
F.N.W. Earlier it says as to their movements that the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.
J.T. Yes, just so. So that all these things work out what we are dealing with. And it is remarkable, as just pointed out, that it is Philippi where all this suggestion comes out as to man.
A.N.W. "A certain Macedonian man" Acts 16:9 is the statement as to Paul's vision; it is very striking.
R.W.S. So that God never reached finality in angels, did He? Is not man His most recent and His crowning thought?
J.T. And so the contrast is between man and angels; but that Man is Christ. We get it in Hebrews 1, showing that it was in God's mind that it was Christ. Manhood was in Christ.
V.C.L. Is it not significant that it was Paul, the one to whom the mystery of the assembly was given, who brings out the contrast between Man and angels? "To which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son ... ?" Hebrews 1:5. It would seem as though Paul, having the light of the assembly, also had the light of this comparison with angels.
J.T. And so the chapter concludes, "Are they not all ministering spirits ... ?". That is what the angels are, "sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation", Hebrews 1:14 that is, Christians. We are the ones that are in mind. But the main thought is Christ -- He is first -- and our being formed according to Him.
C.A.M. Referring to Philippi again where Paul went through the sufferings to which he alludes in the Philippian epistle as "offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith", Philippians 2:17 it was in that setting that the feminine side also came to light so beautifully, did it not, in Lydia and others?
J.T. So that I think we ought to go on to Psalm 8 now to bring out the feelings in the whole matter. Of course it is a psalm, and in order to get the fulness of it we have to go to Hebrews to bring out the mind of God in Christ.
A.B.P. Is there some point in the fact that this psalm is upon the Gittith, which is a feminine idea? I refer to the title of the psalm, "Upon the Gittith", the footnote refers to what is feminine.
J.T. Quite so. That shows that it can be worked out as to the assembly. But we must look at the
epistle to the Hebrews to get the whole matter that is in mind before us and to bring out the idea of the assembly in this great subject, first as to Christ Himself, and then as to the assembly.
J.T.Jr. The idea therefore of redemption is seen in this section, which would be in type in Genesis, I suppose, in Adam's sleep. The Lord partook of blood and flesh that He might annul him that has the might of death, that is the devil; it has set us free. It is a reference, I suppose, to Adam's sleep; typically the Lord going through things to redeem us to God.
J.T. You cannot exactly bring sufferings into it in Genesis, but you can bring them into it eventually.
Rem. Adam and Eve discredited the thought of man; but your thought is that the matter of Christ and the assembly has dignified the whole thing.
J.T. Quite so, that is the thing, that is the grand thought. Someone has mentioned that there is no previous history for the assembly, all has emanated from God. The assembly has no sinful history in that sense.
Ques. Is the superiority of man to angels the present position of man here?
J.T. That is only to bring out that to which the Lord subjected Himself; He submitted to that; but He is God Himself. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth", John 1:14.
A.N.W. Would it be that He was capable of dying, while angels were not? Is that the point there? For the suffering of death: it says, "made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death".
J.T. Quite so; it was all a scheme, a divine scheme of love. It was essential in order to bring out the divine thoughts. And so what a time God may give us as month after month passes by and we continue to look into this wonderful subject! We are to see how Christ and the assembly are really in mind in it all.
E.A.L. It says, in verse 16, "For he does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham", Hebrews 2:16. I was thinking of what you said earlier, the angels having been made before man, but it is God's mind that while Adam was made first, the woman (made secondarily) would point to the assembly. So that what was secondary was of great importance.
J.T. What we had at Chicago would help us as to this, the recency of man, why should it be? We felt the need of touching on it, and what the sisters are as well as the brothers in all these occasions, so as to bring out what was in the mind of God from the outset; how He waited for all these centuries to bring it out; and how we should learn how to wait, and to see how things develop in the mind of God, that love is at work.
D.P. Is man after the order of Christ a better man than Adam in innocence?
J.T. Quite. Of course the Lord Jesus became a Man, and all was there in Him that was intended to be developed in man; all was there in Christ, the power to discern sin and to judge it.
Ques. Does not the difference of the manhood seen in the Lord Jesus come out in the disciples' words, "What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!" Matthew 8:27.
J.T. Just so. What a field there is before us as time goes on, if the Lord leaves us here to work it all out! What there is to be seen in Christ and in the assembly, that is to say, in ourselves!
T.E.H. Properly speaking we have only the two men, the earthly, out of the earth, and the heavenly, out of heaven, have we not?
A.R. Does Hebrews 2:5 refer to the millennium? It says, "For he has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak".
J.T. Yes, the millennium is the world to come of which we speak. We are in the world in which the assembly is being formed, and the world to come is the millennial world.
Ques. In the assembly we also speak of the new heavens and the new earth; is not our conversation about that world as well as the millennial world?
J.T. I think the millennial world is the thing that is in mind when it says, "of which we speak".
A.N.W. The footnote says that it was a known division amongst the Jews. Referring to that very expression, "the habitable world which is to come", the note says: 'A known division amongst the Jews. First', this age '; and then what was to be introduced by the Messiah'. It confirms just what you are saying.
A.R. So that Hebrews 12 bears on the present time, does it?
J.T. Well, there are eight things mentioned, if you will read them.
A.R. "But ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel", Hebrews 12:22 - 24.
J.T. These are all things that will come out in formation in the world to come; that is what is in mind. They are being formed now, but they will come out perfectly, in full formation in the world to come. We have come to these things, the scripture says; it is a question now of seeing what they are and that we are to be in them, have part in them.
J.T.Jr. That is, the thing is already in our souls morally, in the assembly the thing is all there.
J.T. Just so. We have come to perfect things; not to half-made things but to perfect things. And we may come into them at any moment in full literality.
A.R. Does chapter 2 suggest that Christ is the centre of the whole system; the Man in heaven is the centre of everything?
J.T. That is so; you can see that Ephesians would work all that out, as part of the system. All these things are worked out in Ephesians.
A.B.P. Are you carrying forward into Psalm 8 the thought of man and woman in the word Man? Does the question, "What is man?" embrace man and woman as the word 'Man' in Genesis does?
J.T. I think it embraces both. In Genesis God says, "Let us make man in our image ... and let them have dominion". It is the plural immediately.
A.B.P. So that is carried forward into Psalm 8?
J.T. Quite so, and then brought down to ourselves in Hebrews; brought down to our very selves.
F.N.W. There is something that is not too clear to me yet as to the building of the woman. Is that included in the sixth day along with the making of man, or is that something additional?
J.T. Oh, I do not think so, it was all in the one day; it was the sixth day of creation.
F.N.W. Chapter 2 then would be more the detail of the sixth day?
J.T. I think so; we shall have to go back and see what it says: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth". Now go to the first verse of chapter 2; "And the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished. And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it", Genesis 2:1 - 3. Well, that is a finished matter.
A.N.W. Verse 27 reads: "And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them", Genesis 1:27.
J.T. It is all there, it is in anticipation, but the second chapter has to be gone into to make the thing complete, because you get the title 'Jehovah' in the second chapter which you do not get in the first chapter. I mean to say that God has rights that He reserves in all that He has to say, and therefore we have to come into chapter 2 to see that the thing was completed; there was nothing to be added to it.
F.N.W. And what you have read from the beginning of chapter 2 would show that God's rest could not be secured until the woman was properly formed.
C.A.M. I think you have said that chapter 2 was the filling out of the first.
J.T. That is a good way to put it. Surely God has a right to do that, giving, you might say, an outline first and then adding something else so that the thing is complete.
G.H. Genesis 2 speaks of moisture to moisten the whole surface of the ground in connection with the formation of man. Does this thought of moisture fit in with the present spiritual formation?
J.T. I suppose it does; after all, things are not all finished, not every man and woman has come in yet that is to come in as a Christian, so that we have to wait. But then God can take things up from His point of view and speak of them as finished, because He is God.
A.R. The fact of man in Psalm 8 including the woman is a great matter. The woman is included in Hebrews 2 also, is she not?
J.T.Jr. So that Genesis 2 is not the filling out of the sun and moon, or of the earth itself, but of man. And so in Hebrews, the reference is to bring out that what God has in mind is man and woman, Christ and the assembly.
J.T. We come to that. It is a wonderful thing that we come to that eventually; the man and the woman; first the masculine in Christ, and then the feminine in the assembly; that is the feminine side of the truth.
A.R. Is that why the passage is added to by quoting Psalm 22, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises"? Hebrews 2:12.
J.T. Just so. There is a question therefore whether the eternal condition of things will include Israel as such because the idea in eternity is man and woman; that is the primary idea. The question is whether Israel will come into that, or whether it will be just a millennial idea. That is for the brethren to think about.
S.W. It was ever in the mind of God that there should be an affinity between the man and the woman, was it not?
J.T. That is right, mutual affinity.
S. W. I was thinking of Exodus 2, "A man of the house of Levi", and "a daughter of Levi", Exodus 2:1. That can be worked out amongst us now.
A.N.W. How far does the "all of one" go in verse 11? It says the Sanctifier and the sanctified are "all of one", Hebrews 2:11. How far would you say that goes? I thought that perhaps it might have a link with Genesis 2 where there is that affinity.
J.T. We must be most careful about guarding the Person of Christ in all these things. It says, "For both he that sanctifies" -- that is the Lord Himself, "and those sanctified" -- those are ourselves, "are all of one"; that is, all of one kind as you might say, all of one kind. And yet the Lord Jesus is a divine Person and we are creatures. But then the thought is applied to us, "all of one"; you might add the word 'kind' to simplify it. But "all of one" is the word of Scripture. That is to say Christ and ourselves are all of one.
A.N. W. So much so that it goes on to say, "For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".
J.T. Quite so, "... saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren"; Hebrews 2:11,12 those are the Lord's own words to His Father in John 17:26.
Ques. Where things are made subject to the Lord in verses 6 - 8 of Hebrews 2, the assembly is included in His position, is it not?
J.T. Quite so. And divine Persons are gracious enough to include us in the oneness with Him.
A.B.P. Is not the deity of Christ guarded in Psalm 8 when it says, "When I see thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and stars, which thou hast established"? The sun is not referred to in that connection, it is the moon and the stars.
J.T. Just so, it makes way for Christ, regarding the sun as a type of Christ. That is what is on your mind, is it not?
A.B.P. I thought the fact that the sun is not mentioned in relation to the work of the fingers would be a guarding of His Person.
J.T. Just so; the sun is needed to complete the system, the idea of the system; and what is needed is Christ Himself, He supplies what is needed.
S.J.M. Would the fingers suggest the detailed working out of the thing, do you think? It does not say the hand.
J.T. Detail is good, quite so; and how much there is in the working out of God's thoughts in the saints! What detail there is, what patience there is! And we are exhorted to "have patience, therefore, brethren, till the coming of the Lord", James 5:7.
Genesis 5:1 - 24
J.T. There are certain definite links between this chapter and the last paragraph of chapter 4. Verse 25 of that chapter leads up to Seth, whose name is said to mean 'appointed'. There would be undoubtedly a divine thought in that, that God had taken up Seth to bring out the thought of His counsels leading up to the family of God in this chapter. These men each lived a long time. It is suggested that the thought of the love of God cannot be excluded from the chapter. God has begun again here, and we have, "This is the book of Adam's generations". It is suggested that this section involves the family of God and the counsels of God, beginning with Seth; so that we are placed on a high level of truth in which I believe the Lord would sustain us. It is not a mere matter of analysis or history, but that God has entered into the matter Himself; not only in a creational sense but in the sense of love; that He is God. Presently we shall take up Abraham and others to see how His thoughts work out; but in this section we have great and fresh thoughts about God and the family of God, about the human race. I use the word 'family' only in the sense in which it is found in this chapter; and whilst Adam cannot quite be said to belong to the children of God as never having been a child, yet he belongs to this chapter. In chapter 1 it is just Adam; but in this chapter there is the additional thought of what Adam became, and his family. So that we have here the generations of Adam: "The book of the generations of Adam". The word 'generation' has to be regarded in its own meaning: it is the head of an order of man or of a family. There are many of them spoken of throughout Scripture; about ten of them throughout this book.
F.H.L. Were you linking this on with the words at the end of chapter 4, where it says, "Then people began to call on the name of Jehovah"? Genesis 4:26.
J.T. That is right, they began to call upon the Name. The word 'Jehovah' comes in in chapter 2 -- Jehovah Elohim -- so that a link of family relation is already introduced.
A.R. Do you get the family idea in verse 3, "And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth"?
J.T. Just so; it is linked up with verse 26 of the previous chapter where "people began to call on the name of Jehovah", Genesis 4:26.
They began to call on it, showing the thought of respect for the relation between God and His people which comes out more fully in Exodus where the name of God is fully disclosed.
Ques. Is the use of the name Jehovah here anticipative of what was to come out?
J.T. That is right, it comes out in Exodus. God discloses His name to Moses: "I AM THAT I AM".
A.N.W. And Enoch's name, meaning 'disciplined', would confirm it on our side, would it not? The thought of discipline would seem to bring in the family relationship, or would be the effect of family relationship.
R.W.S. Is there a moral touch in verse 26 where it says, "and he called his name Enosh"? Genesis 4:26. I think that is the third name that has been used so far to designate man. We had Adam, and Ish, and now Enosh. This seems to be the third name for man, meaning that he is weak and mortal.
J.T. Yes; that is the meaning as given in the note. As calling upon the name of Jehovah men accepted that death had come in and that Enosh was a representative of it; his father evidently recognised that when he gave him his name, Enosh,
poor mortal man. Of course we are all mortal and we may as well accept it, only with us we know that the Lord is coming for us. The word 'mortal' means that we are liable to death, but at the same time faith enables us to reckon that the Lord is coming for us, that we should look for that and not simply for death. Some are looking for death, but it is clear that the New Testament would encourage our hearts to look for the coming of the Lord to take us.
J.T.Jr. We have the word 'mortal' in Romans 8 in connection with our mortal bodies. It is in line with what you are saying: "if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", Romans 8:11.
J.T. That came out recently in meetings in England and it seemed to lend touch or colour to what we were having; the thought of our being mortal, and that the Spirit of God changes that for us is touching. He changes our mortal bodies and quickens them so that we may not die. The Lord says, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die", John 11:26.
F.N.W. The expression "children of God" is mentioned in Romans 8 in that same paragraph. Would that be a family relationship connected with our mortal condition? The full thought of sonship, "sons of God", Romans 8:14 is not connected with our present mortal condition, is it?
J.T. We are sons, however, as well as children: "But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", Galatians 4:6.
F.N.W. Is not the fulness of it connected with a body of glory like Christ's?
A.N.W. Is not the skill of the Spirit seen in Psalm 8? He says in verse 4, "What is man ... ?", Psalm 8:4 referring to this same word, 'Enosh' -- man in his feeble mortal condition; but when He says, "the son of man", He uses the word 'Adam', not the one suggesting feebleness. Is that not the skill of the Spirit as having Christ in view in changing over to the word 'Adam?'
J.T. Showing how the mind of God is interwoven from the outset, the mind of God in whatever sense. It is a new generation in the end of Genesis 4 and they began to call on the name of Jehovah.
D.McD. Is the scripture you referred to in Romans 8 morally true now? Or does it refer to the actual translation when it speaks of quickening our mortal bodies?
J.T. It is not moral now because it is a question of our mortal bodies being quickened. It has not a present application.
A.N.W. I think the verses we read would confirm it; it says in chapter 8:11, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", Romans 8:11. It seems to stand related to the raising up of Christ.
S.J.M. Should we not, therefore, value our bodies at the present time in relation to the testimony?
J.T. Quite so, they are the Lord's. They will presently be translated, but they are the Lord's now, even in the mortal condition. We should accustom ourselves to look for the change alluded to -- the quickening of our mortal bodies. We should become accustomed to that, and not simply occupy ourselves with the possibility that we are going to die; it is better to be occupied with the truth as Scripture puts it. Of course, some were told that they would die, as, for instance, Peter; and
the apostle Paul contemplates the possibility of it; he said it would be far better than his then condition. But generally speaking the thought is that the Lord is coming for us, and the Spirit is ready to quicken us at any time; He is ready to do it.
A.R. Do you think that Enoch anticipated translation?
J.T. "He was not", it says; he was translated, but we cannot say any more than that. "He was not", and "before his translation he has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5 which is a very great thing that will come in presently when we are talking about his name.
R.W.S. Chapter 4 does not say that the progeny of Cain died. There are certain names too in that chapter which are similar to those in chapter 5. Would all that affect Seth so that when his son is born he calls him Enosh, to repudiate the principles of Cain's world?
J.T. Just so. So that I think we are entitled to regard this chapter as over against chapter 4, and to refer to the death of the saints that these are "the dead in Christ", 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in principle at least. From the light we have in the New Testament we are entitled to think of their death as the death of the saints. Is that clear?
R.W.S. Yes, it is; I am glad you mentioned that because there are certain names that are similar in the two chapters; yet those in the one allude to the saints and in the other to men in Cain's world.
J.T. So that in 1 Thessalonians 4, the chapter that speaks of the Lord's coming for us, the dead in Christ are said to rise first. Then we which are alive shall be quickened. So that I think we should be entitled to confirm what we said at the beginning, that this chapter is the family of God and that they are going to rise first.
A.B.P. Would there be any suggestion of Abel's death being typical of the death of Christ?
J.T. Yes, he is a type; and Seth is a type too, I think; he is appointed, as the Lord is appointed, instead of Adam.
V.C.L. You have spoken elsewhere of God having His great thought of what is good and that it brings in Adam's generations; and I wondered if that is the reason that faith is linked on with Enoch, according to Hebrews 11?
V.C.L. Then in a sense are these seven a complete picture of what God had for Himself in spite of sin? Are we allowed to see in these seven men, Adam to Enoch, that God reserves the better part for Himself in that era, even though sin came in?
J.T. Exactly. We had at Chicago what we have come to in Hebrews 12; and amongst the things mentioned are the dead in Christ, those that are to be raised. The idea is that the dead in Christ rise first.
Ques. You said in regard to "the spirits of just men made perfect" Hebrews 12:23 that they are these men in this chapter. How are we to understand that these are the just men referred to?
J.T. Well, it is the truth; the teaching of the chapter refers to the family of God. They are the ones that will rise first, they come into the resurrection first; then we which are alive and remain shall be changed and caught up to be ever with the Lord. We are to comfort one another with these words.
E.A.L. In Moses and Elias on the mount of transfiguration, do we see there the spirits of just men made perfect?
J.T. Well, we must keep in mind the word which says that "they should not be made perfect without us", Hebrews 11:40.
R.W.S. Does Seth head up the family of God in this section?
J.T. I think so, it is the idea that attaches to him, I think. "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son, and called his name Seth" (Genesis 4:25). She called his name Seth, and then it goes on to say, "For God has appointed me another seed instead of Abel". That is to say, he is taking the place of Abel.
F.S.C. Does 1 Chronicles 1 bring out what we are saying? "Adam, Seth, Enosh", 1 Chronicles 1:1 and so on.
J.T. Just so, it alludes to this; it shows the character of the first book of Chronicles. Just the names are given.
F.H.L. In this second verse it says that God created, and He blessed, and He called. Would this blessing bring them into the family?
J.T. I think so; very good. This word 'blessing' is really entering into the whole chapter, and the thought of the family of God enters into it too.
R.W.S. Will you enlarge on how Seth is a type of Christ?
J.T. He is appointed instead of Abel; it is just a dim allusion but we can see the appointed One; God has appointed a day "in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed", Acts 17:31. That is stated distinctly.
A.N.W. There is a hiatus against his name in verse 25 of chapter 4. There is evidently something striking to the writer which that would indicate.
J.T. The word 'appointed' as given in the footnote referring to Seth's name, has a great place here, and links with what has been said, that God "has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead", Acts 17:31.
So that resurrection is in mind.
J.T.Jr. In Acts 17 Paul goes back to the creation; he begins with, "The God who has made the world and all things which are in it"; Acts 17:24 that is, he does not refer exactly to Israel, he goes back to the creation. And then in that verse you read, "by the man whom he has appointed", we get the very word 'Seth, appointed', brought in.
J.T. I think that will appeal to all the brethren, that we have come to something very definite in the name Seth, taking the place of Abel.
A.R. You mean there is the suggestion of resurrection in Seth?
J.T. That is what is seen in what we have quoted in the New Testament, as well as here.
Rem. The history of the family of Cain in the fourth chapter ends up with a murder, and it does not say that one came in in the place of the murdered man. But here we have Seth coming in in the place of Abel, which you say is typical of Christ coming in.
J.T. Quite so, I think it is very wonderful, and I use the word 'wonderful' deliberately, how all this comes into this chapter which is the family chapter, and how the lives of the saints are given, including Enoch, though he "was not found, because God had translated him"; Hebrews 11:5 that is, he is a type of the risen glorified saints.
A.B.P. Is there a suggestion in the fact that their years are mentioned in days, that those days were all taken account of by God? While their lives were long in years, yet they were divided into days.
J.T. Every day was valuable, "And thy rest as thy days", Deuteronomy 33:25. That is a great encouragement to us.
D.P. Do these names set out distinctive personalities, showing that some feature of God was formed in each of these men?
J.T. I think so; it is a family chapter, you know. "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. It says further, "What we shall be has not yet been manifested", 1 John 3:2 but we are something, we are something definite, the children of God. John would bring this chapter into that.
T.N.W. With reference to Seth it says that he was begotten in the image and likeness of Adam. Those two expressions are used in the first chapter in connection with God and the creation of Adam. Is there a link?
J.T. I suppose there is; Adam is brought into it definitely in chapter 5. It is a matter of Adam's generations.
A.A.T. Speaking of days, it says in the last chapter of Job that he died, "old and full of days", Job 42:17. Would that correspond with this chapter?
J.T. Very good. God made much of Job when he was restored. God made a great deal of him. He calls him, "My servant Job". He said to the three friends, "My servant Job shall pray for you", Job 42:8.
V.C.L. In connection with the family idea, is it not remarkable that apparently Adam was alive most of the time that Enoch was walking with God? It would show the remarkable overlapping of what was pleasing to God in these men.
J.T. Just so; God looks down on His family, He knows every one of us, our traits and what characterises us, every one of us. And I think it is very beautiful that we are able to call each other by name, we are friends of each other and can call each other by name. Very likely we could name each other even now in this room, although there
are a good few of us. We ought to accustom ourselves to the idea of the names of the friends.
S.J.M. The Lord in John 10 says that He calls His own sheep by name.
J.T. Just so; and John is the one who mentions the idea of greeting the friends by name.
S.W. You were saying that we should live in the light of the rapture, which is very encouraging to us all. But must we not have the thought of Enosh before us before we can get to Enoch? I mean the thought of the weak mortal man.
J.T. Enoch was a sufferer, a sufferer for the truth, I would say; he was devoted, he was a man that was disciplined; he brings in the idea of being disciplined.
S.W. Yes, I just thought of man's days being numbered, as in Psalm 103man's days "are as grass", Psalm 103:15. We should have it before us that our days are short so that our minds will be occupied with the thought of the rapture.
J.T. And then that we are amongst the disciplined ones whom the Father loves, for whom God loves He chastens. Every father chastens his sons, and God chastens us because He loves us. We have that before us too.
S.J.M. In reference to the appointment of Seth, is not the enemy bent on breaking the link, but will not God see to it at all times that it is maintained? In the Acts we get two appointed from whom one is to take the place of Judas. Is there something in that, that things are to be maintained unbroken, nothing is to be broken? So we get Seth where Abel left off; he is appointed for Abel.
J.T. Just so, in Acts the number twelve is secured; and the appointment secures it. The book of Acts would strengthen that position. The divine number must be maintained, and that divine number is twelve. It is maintained in Acts and it is maintained
in Revelation 21; the names of the apostles are written there.
A.N.W. Seth is needed to complete the seven, is he not? He is one in the vital link of the seven.
Ques. Does Seth rise to the thought in Ephesians where it says we have been "marked out beforehand ... according to the counsel of his own will"? Ephesians 1:11. You mentioned the word 'counsel' in your opening remarks. Is the thought here that God was not taken unawares by the death of Abel?
J.T. Just so; things must fit into the divine thoughts, and God sees to it that they do. They fit in the testimony down here too as shown in the number twelve, and they fit in heaven.
F.H.L. The generations go on, the sons and daughters come to light in every case.
J.T. Sons and daughters convey the family thought.
A.R. In Genesis 1:28 God said, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth", Genesis 1:28. In that injunction would He have in mind this family, that they were the only ones worthy to be multiplied? Would that refer to the family of God?
J.T. Exactly, only that chapter 5 carries the thought of the family more than the first chapter.
Ques. Certain things are mentioned about man in chapter 5:2 that have been mentioned in chapter one. Is that an indication that although sin has come in, God is retaining His prime thought?
J.T. Just so, His original thought.
A.N.W. Is that seen too in the fact that while it is six times repeated, "and he died", death taking six of them, yet the seventh God took? It was God's right, God took him.
C.H.H. Would the fact that these seven men would be living at the same time, overlapping each other, mean that God could look at His family as a
perfect representation of Himself, that is, in the combination of the seven?
J.T. Yes, and John's epistle would work this out, too, in the family of God. The character of God is worked out in His family in John's three epistles, especially the first one.
A.B.P. Have you in mind the thought of the fathers and the young men and the children when you say that?
J.T. Yes; but I was speaking particularly of the scripture, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. The children of God are there; they must represent God.
A.B.P. Then in the overlapping that has been referred to there would be these different variations, would there not -- the fathers, the young men, and the children in the various stages of growth?
S.J.M. I was noticing in the gospels where it speaks of affection -- because affection seems to underlie the whole position here -- that the Lord says, "The Father himself has affection for you", John 16:27. Do you think that fits in?
J.T. Quite so; "... because ye have had affection for me". The Lord was in their hearts, and now they are in His Father's heart.
J.G.B. Have you any thought as to why the mention of love does not come in until chapter 22? It says there, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac", Genesis 22:2. I was wondering why the family thought goes forward to that point before the matter of love is mentioned as you remarked on it in John's epistle.
J.T. You have to go forward a good distance in the Old Testament for that, but it is well to notice the word 'love', and that it is in connection with Isaac that we get it first used.
S.J.M. But it underlies the chapter here, does it not? For it says, "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him". It would be an underlying feature here?
J.T. It would, because this being the family chapter we must bring God into it, and His nature too, we might say; and that is what our brother has in mind, only that we have to go down to Isaac to get it fully. It is in the family of Abraham. It is in Abraham that we get the thought of the family intensified because he is the father of us all. It is the first time that we get a name like that. It means that he is the father of us all. Love belongs to that section.
A.R. We have in John's gospel the expression, "born ... of God". He is the Originator of a family in that sense.
C.H.H. Would the word 'likeness' in verse 3 involve nature? There would be affection there: Adam "begot a son in his likeness, after his image". Would "likeness" cover the idea of affection and love, whereas "image" would be the representation of God?
J.T. Very good; the idea of Adam's likeness being carried on through Seth.
J.T.Jr. In reference to Cain it is said that his countenance fell, which would allude, I suppose, to the condition of the old man in the world. The violence is all there.
F.H.L. Jude's reference to Enoch is in connection with a prophecy as to the ungodly. Would you say a word about that prophecy? It is a very remarkable matter.
J.T. It is in the book of Jude that Enoch is mentioned as a prophet. Will you read it, please; it is very important, especially as to the holy myriads.
F.H.L. "And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also as to these, saying, Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly of them of all their works of ungodliness, which they have wrought ungodlily, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him", Jude 14,15.
J.T. You can see that Jude has a good judgment as to the world, a very good judgment, and it is a good thing for young people to pay attention to it. And he calls the saints "his holy myriads". He says that the Lord is coming "amidst his holy myriads".
A.A.T. It says that Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him; and then in Colossians 3:3 it says, "For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God", Colossians 3:3. There is a connection between the two scriptures, is there not?
J.T. Yes, there is a connection; Enoch "was not, for God took him", and the word for us is, "For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God", Colossians 3:3. That is clearly connected with Enoch.
R.W.S. In the prophetic vision of Enoch it says, "Behold, the Lord has come", Jude 14. Is that still future?
J.T. It is future; but it is remarkable that the idea of the prophetic ministry is connected with this family chapter. Enoch represents it. He is telling about the future, but there is a moral lesson in it too because he speaks of holy myriads, that the Lord is coming with the holy myriads. That is a point that should come into our meetings for prophetic ministry.
V.C.L. Is the family thought borne out particularly by the mention each time of sons and daughters, as though, while it is a physical fact, nevertheless sons and daughters were pleasing to God then and are still pleasing to Him?
J.T. And so you might well connect that with 2 Corinthians 6 where separation is alluded to. It is
said that if we are separate, "Ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty", 2 Corinthians 6:18.
S.J.M. Zacchaeus is called, by the Lord Himself, a son of Abraham. That would fit into this matter, would it not? Then later on He speaks of a daughter of Abraham, as though He carried the thing in His mind all the time.
J.T. You allude to the woman whom the Lord straightened. He said that she was a daughter of Abraham.
Genesis 5:32; Genesis 6:1 - 14; Genesis 7:1 - 24.
J.T. It was suggested that we read the verse in chapter 5 because it keeps Noah in the family that is delineated in that chapter; and it keeps him before us too according to the place that God had given him. It is sovereign selection of which he is proved to be worthy because his generations are given. It is the history of Noah, which refers to his generations. Then his sons are distinctly kept before us in the narrative, and his sons' wives as well as his own wife. Noah is distinguished in that he is said to have prepared an ark for the saving of his house, which is an example for us, especially as to baptism. The word is that it is a like figure according to which baptism now saves us. Baptism in the New Testament is an answer to the idea of the flood; it has the thought of purification as well as immersion. Another thing to be kept before us is the emphasis on the word 'Man' in this narrative, written with a capital, as we shall all have noticed, so that the idea is very pronounced and intended to be so in our minds at this time.
R.H.S. Is there a difference between the thought of 'Man' and the sons of God? Were the sons of God created before man, as suggested in Job?
J.T. Yes, that has to be kept in mind. Attention has been called to the recency of man's creation as compared with that of other beings. But we see here that man is in mind, and his destruction comes in in view of the terrible wickedness that had developed in the family. There is also allusion to the fall of certain of the angelic family. That is something that, perhaps, we have not touched on very much, but it should be noticed at this time. The allusion is to certain angels that fell, having become apostate,
and they never were recovered; there is no such thought as any recovery of such beings. Only man is recovered.
Ques. They are numbered amongst the angels that kept not their first estate?
T.N.W. Are they the spirits that are in prison, heretofore disobedient?
J.T. Those would be the persons to whom Noah preached but the sons of God would refer to angels who left their first estate.
C.A.M. With regard to the daughters of men, does not the enemy power seek to work out its terrible designs on the feminine side of things, as Satan at the beginning?
J.T. Yes, it does, which is a very solemn matter for us to consider.
A.A.T. Would it correspond with spiritualism today? These sons of God were not men, but apparently beings that are supernatural, I suppose, and I was wondering if today there is anything like that?
J.T. The question that has been raised is as to the feminine side in this passage; there is no female side among the angels, it is only among men that you get that thought, or among the lower creatures on the earth. I do not know if I have made that clear but it is important that what has been referred to should not be passed over.
A.N.W. The angels neither marry nor are given in marriage, we are told.
A.R. You get in this chapter the place the Spirit has too: "My spirit shall not always plead with Man".
J.T. We shall also come to that touching reference to the dove in the latter part of the narrative, the dove coming into the ark; but we will not touch
on it immediately. We are now speaking of the corruption on the earth that is unfolded in this passage in Genesis 6. It is a terrible time today for corruption of this kind and everyone should be aware of it in order to stand against it.
C.F.E. Do we see here the thought of departure?
J.T. We do, and I think we ought to keep it before us in the angelic side that is touched on here.
J.H.E. The Lord says, "As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man", Matthew 24:37. We can expect such conditions now.
J.T. Just so; the awful corruption.
T.V.D. When the Lord was here and they came and asked Him about what Moses had said, that Moses had allowed a bill of divorcement, He answered that, 'In the beginning it was not so'. He goes right back to the beginning, the way things had come from God at the outset. In the beginning God had created male and female and joined them as man and wife; but this ordering man had corrupted and is still corrupting.
A.B.P. Is it not particularly dangerous in our day because this kind of thing is more or less winked at by many prominent persons in the world? I thought the fact that the angels were involved in it here might set a sort of lead in the matter; and the fact that it is more or less winked at by persons in the world makes it very dangerous for our young people.
J.T. And so the Lord speaks of what was happening when the flood came; and this scripture shows the terribleness of the conditions that existed. When we come to the end of the Bible, to Revelation, there is much made of this terrible looseness, this corruption that is abroad amongst men, and we ought to be aware of it and set our faces against it in view of our young people.
F.S.C. Is this chapter in great moral contrast to the previous chapter?
J.T. Yes; the previous chapter is the family chapter.
V.C.L. But in some sense is this chapter not a chapter of victory? The evil is called attention to in all its corruptness, but it seems to throw into relief the greatness of what Noah did.
J.T. Quite so; so that he is singled out in the first section we read and his history is given. It says, "This is the history of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect amongst his generations: Noah walked with God. And Noah begot three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was full of violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth" (verses 9 - 12). And then again, in verse 14, "Make thyself an ark of gopher wood"; that is, Noah prepared an ark; God ordered him to do so to save his house. And attention is called to Noah because of his three sons; we noticed that they are mentioned at the end of chapter 5, and now they are called attention to again in chapter 6; in the midst of the corruption they are preserved. So that we can take comfort in this, that there are those that are preserved, and God helps us to preserve our children.
J.T.Jr. So we have baptism linked up with Noah in the New Testament, and also preaching. He is called a preacher of righteousness. This chapter would bring out both those thoughts, would you think?
J.T. It is good to bring that up, and the brethren are trying to keep up these matters. We are having our little preachings every Lord's day, to say the least, and besides that we keep on with baptism as maintaining the households of the saints.
F.H.L. Would you say that there are four men and four women here who are maintaining God's thought as to man and woman? It is said of Lemech that he had two wives; but the eight persons who go through in the ark are maintaining the family idea of husband and wife.
J.T. Very good. It was in Cain's family that the two wives appeared.
Ques. Descendants of Noah's three sons have come into the assembly, have they not?
J.T. Quite so, that is the idea, that they are carried down. And I believe that the division of the world at the present time can be marked out from the sons of Noah; and especially the areas from which the assembly is drawn; that is to say, the Japheth areas. Certain parts are noted as affording material for the assembly, and that should be understood by us.
J.T.Jr. Is it from Japheth that we get the beginnings of that part of the gentile world which includes our own position here and Britain with its outgoings?
J.T. Yes, that is right. There is hardly a thing for God in Asia, and in Africa very little. It is in the element from Japheth that you get the material for the assembly.
F.H.L. And yet the idea of all men is carried through as seen in Acts 8, 9 and 10, would you not say?
J.T. Just so, the evangelisation of the eunuch would bring in Ham in chapter 8, and in chapter 9 we have Shem's line in the incoming of Saul, and the incoming of the line of Japheth is seen in the house of Cornelius in chapter 10 through Peter's ministry.
R.W.S. Japheth was the elder, was he not, indicating that the assembly was the primary thought
in God's mind? In chapter 10 it speaks of Japheth the elder.
A.A.T. At the end of Matthew the disciples are told to go into all the world and make disciples. Would that be broader than the Japheth world?
J.T. Oh, well, we must make allowance for God's distinctions. It is true it says in Mark, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation"; Mark 16:15 that is quite right; but at the same time there are levitical principles governing these things as to where we are to go. You do not find in Scripture evangelisation towards Asia; you do not get it even in Paul.
J.T.Jr. That is, the Spirit came in immediately to guide them?
J.T. That is right, so that there are levitical principles governing the position.
G.H. In Romans 16 in Paul's salutation he says, "Salute Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first-fruits of Asia for Christ", Romans 16:5.
J.T. That does not refer to the continent of Asia; that is the province of Asia. It is the continent of Asia of which we have been speaking.
V.C.L. Is there any parallel between the fewness of those that God carried through in the ark and the comparative numerical fewness of those that we can identify and have happy fellowship with today?
J.T. There must be some distinctive connection there, surely. The Spirit of God goes to the trouble of mentioning that it was eight souls, not seven, but eight.
J.H.E. The Lord says, "Fear not, little flock", Luke 12:32 does He not?
J.T. Just so, it is a word for us not to fear for "it has been the good pleasure of your Father to give you the kingdom", Luke 12:32.
C.H.H. Would that be the thought in "Let Reuben live, and not die; and let his men be few"? Deuteronomy 33:6.
J.T. Just so; the idea is that they are easily counted I think. We were speaking recently about being able to name one another. I think that is very comforting that we are to be friends, calling the friends by name. We can do this, we can go to the different localities and call the brethren by name. We are few, of course, but at the same time there is a goodly number taking account of what there is on earth -- in this country, and in Australasia, and in Europe; there is a goodly number that God has on the earth and we can reckon them with pleasure, and find comfort in it.
D.P. Is it not a fact that in Acts 16 the Spirit of God directed Paul towards Europe? Would the Spirit have in mind to draw the greater amount of material from that area?
J.T. That is a more reduced thought, but it is the same idea as Japheth; it is in his territory, only Europe is a reduced thought. The gospel was to go to Europe: the appeal in the vision to Paul was, "Pass over into Macedonia and help us", Acts 16:9. It is a reduced thought, it is a question of grace, really, at that time. What we were talking about earlier was the whole realm of Japheth.
D.P. Yes; but I understand that the Spirit's operations are mainly in Europe and its outgoings.
J.T. But that is not as large a sphere as Japheth; Japheth is a larger thought.
M.G. From the beginning it was said that Japheth was to be enlarged.
J.T. It was. And another thing that we should have in our minds is that we are not to be on racial lines. We have already spoken of racial lines but we should not have that in our minds too much because God is not thinking of what is racial exactly, He is thinking of material for the assembly.
J.H.E. He is calling out from among the nations.
S.C.M. It is out of every tongue, kindred, and nation, is it not?
S.C.M. I was noticing that Japheth's name means spreading, enlargement.
R.W.S. There was not any spreading in this chapter; apparently during the hundred and twenty years of Noah's preaching there was no one converted, but, of course, the ground was held and enlargement has come out later. Would it represent the patient continuance of a few going through a hundred and twenty years of crisis?
J.T. Yes; of course it comes out in Abraham who is the father of all believers, which is a great idea in the fatherly sense. We shall come to that in a later reading.
J.T.Jr. I suppose we are experiencing, in a small way, this spreading of the testimony in our city. If we have that in mind we should also be thinking of what is suitable in the way of proper meeting rooms.
J.T. We have been occupied with that for some time and I think that something will come out of it.
J.T.Jr. There is also need for considering personnel, that there might be persons in each of the meetings who can help to carry on in the way of testimony.
J.T. I have been told that it used to be asked by Mr. Stoney, when new meetings were being started, 'Who are your elders?' We need elders, persons that will look after things and see that things are done and that order is kept.
C.H.H. Would chapter 5, being an account of families, be in accord with John's teaching; whereas this, being more assembly teaching, would be Paul's line, being a matter of the house and the ark?
J.T. Very good, I would think that.
R.H.S. You were referring to setting up meetings; would that be suggested in Titus, where Paul says, "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou mightest go on to set right what remained unordered, and establish elders in each city, as I had ordered thee"? Titus 1:5.
J.T. I think so; things are to be kept in order, too, and this calls for persons looking after things properly.
Ques. Where do young brothers fit into elderhood?
J.T. They do not fit into it, they are not elders; an elder is an elder, the word means that he is not a young brother; but at the same time the young brother has responsibility and there is much to do. And so you find that is so in Acts 5 where Ananias and Sapphira are carried out by the young men. They looked after the burial of these two persons, which would indicate that Ananias and Sapphira were christians although they came under the judgment of God.
E.A.L. Would you say that one of the most needful and important things in our localities is the matter of those who have experience with God, those who have been faithful in the course and have proven their dependence on God?
J.T. And so you have the idea of the twenty-four elders, and the four living creatures. I would connect the young brothers with the living creatures, and the elders are seen in the twenty-four; they look after things.
S.C.M. John, in his epistle, writes to the fathers, the young men, and the children. They are to go on together, are they not?
J.T. The book of Revelation helps in regard to elders and young men. The living creatures would cover the idea of young men; life must be there if they are to have any place at all.
G.H. The fathers in John's epistle would be like the elders?
J.T.Jr. Paul's ministry, as has been remarked, fits into this chapter; eldership and what governs the assembly (typified in the ark here) would fit in with what is going on in our cities.
D.P. Noah would have to cope with the spirit of evil that was then rampant, would he not?
A.N.W. We have a word about Jehovah's Spirit here: "My Spirit" (verse 3). Jehovah's Spirit comes into view, pleading with men. Why does that appear just now?
J.T. Does it not show, in regard to the blessed Spirit, that He is active here on earth? It gives a peculiar place to the Spirit. He is not mentioned much in this section, but He is here and He is mentioned in the first chapter also; and then undoubtedly He is in mind in the mention of the dove later on, showing the great place the Spirit has in these chapters.
C.A.M. In referring to Noah's preaching, it says that it was the Spirit of Christ that preached to these people, does it not?
J.T. Just so, Peter alludes to that.
C.A.M. Do you not think that we should be encouraged with regard to the gospel in connection with the Spirit?
J.T. And the fewness of those secured too, for they are mentioned in that passage: "into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved", 1 Peter 3:20. "Eight souls"; so that I think we should be encouraged in that with which we are going on. The Lord is helping us, I think; we are very small, of course, but still the Lord is helping us and it is in keeping with what we have here. There was very little done here although
the Spirit of God was pleading. There was very little in the sense of results, but there were eight souls anyway.
J.T.Jr. However, the idea of building has gone on, has it not, in the recovery? Since the recovery of the truth it has been the building. Things have been built up locally amongst us and the Spirit has had His part in all that.
G.H. It says of Noah that he was moved with fear, and that he "prepared an ark for the saving of his house", Hebrews 11:7. Is that an important feature today?
J.T. It is; the fear of God, that is the fear that made him prepare the ark for the saving of his house.
R.W.S. How familiar he seems to be with the dove! Could I just read that passage in chapter eight? It says, "And he sent out the raven, which went forth going to and fro, until the waters were dried from the earth. And he sent out the dove from him, to see if the waters had become low on the ground. But the dove found no resting-place for the sole of her foot, and returned to him into the ark; for the waters were on the whole earth; and he put forth his hand, and took her, and brought her to him into the ark. And he waited yet other seven days, and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark. And the dove came to him at eventide; and behold, in her beak was an olive-leaf plucked off; and Noah knew that the waters had become low on the earth. And he waited yet other seven days, and sent forth the dove; but she returned no more to him", Genesis 8:7 - 12.
J.T. That she returned no more, would, I suppose, point to the millennial day; then the Spirit will be free; -- there will be no need of the assembly here as the habitation or sphere of the Spirit. The Spirit will be free to act. I think the allusion would be to the millennial day and the freedom the Spirit will
have. The dove is not under restraint, there is no restraint there.
R.W.S. So that the Spirit will be here in a certain sense, in the millennial day?
Rem. The presence of Noah here in this chapter did not stop the evil; indeed it became worse. In fact, after reference to Noah in this chapter we read that God says, "The end of all flesh is come before me".
J.T. Just so, and God is going to deal with it although He was showing that He was giving man a long opportunity, a hundred and twenty years; but the judgment was coming, it was inevitable. When Noah entered into the ark the flood came, it says.
Rem. So that the saints while here are holding back the judgment, but in the end it will come.
J.T. Just so; it is a certainty, and the book of Revelation points to it. There is great importance attached to judgment, especially at the end of the Bible.
W.W.M. In the street preachings we may have a sense that the Spirit of God is not operating among men generally. God says, "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man", and the foot-note says, 'plead in (or amongst) men'. But we preach in view of sending out the testimony and hoping to bring to light someone that is affected by it; but in general men in the mass are pretty much in the condition of which we read in this chapter.
J.T. That is so, there is very little interest. I believe in keeping largely to the meeting rooms because there is room for the Spirit in the meeting rooms; the brethren are there, the young people are there, and there is some room for the Spirit in the meeting room. Of course if we raise the question of the street preaching, it is good and well; and if young brothers are able to do it, let them do it;
God will bless them. But I believe in the main in holding to the meeting rooms because the Spirit of God has something there that is more congenial to Him than in the street. There is some restriction, or whatever it may be, that is from God.
W.W.M. So that if a person comes to the gospel preaching in the room it is more likely he would be helped there than anywhere else because the Spirit of God would be free there.
J.T. And the brethren can get round him and talk to him.
A.N.W. The Lord brings that out strikingly in Luke 15, that while the sheep is sought and found in the wilderness, the piece of money is in the house; and the woman says, "I have found the piece which I had lost", Luke 15:9 which seems to have a direct allusion to the Spirit Himself.
J.T. It is an allusion, I am sure. It is a woman that sweeps the house; it is done with womanly care, and it is to find the lost piece.
T.E.H. I have often heard it said that a young brother should start preaching in the open air first. Is that correct?
J.T. That is where I started, here in New York city. I would recommend to every young brother to go out in the street; but then let the preaching go on in the rooms too, because you get more power and protection in testimony in the rooms.
A.R. Is there salvation in our rooms?
J.T. Well, there is some protection, especially if the brothers and the sisters attend the meetings well and stay around after the preaching and talk to those that are there, to young people and others who need care.
Rem. The persons who were saved in the ark not only came to Noah but they came into the ark; and I thought it should be the concern of the
preachers, not only to win souls to Christ, but to seek to bring them into the assembly.
Ques. Would you encourage persons to stay after the preaching? That is not forcing them, is it?
J.T. No; they have come there and you are assuming that they have come voluntarily and that there is some interest in them. That makes a great difference; you cannot assume that on the street.
A.B.P. It was after the preaching that the Lord spoke with Simon in Luke 5. He was told to launch out into the deep after the preaching was over.
Ques. Is it not a question of love for souls? If there is love for souls one would take every opportunity whether on the streets or elsewhere to try and bring them to Christ.
J.T. Oh, quite so; but then we are speaking about the meeting rooms, and we ought to look for some results. There is protection in some sense for those who come into the meeting rooms. These things are not to be spoken of lightly.
C.H.H. It was necessary to be in the ark to take account of the animals. I suppose each of them would suggest some feature of God's work which could only be seen in the ark.
J.T. Quite so, very good. Another thing that we have to realise is that there were no children amongst those that were saved. It was not a time for children at all, it was for full grown persons, for, whether in Noah's house or in those of his sons, everyone was full-grown.
C.F.E. Does that convey God's thoughts manward?
J.T. That is right; in this particular phase of the testimony you look for full-grown persons.
V.C.L. Methuselah apparently died in the very year of the flood; he was not carried over; but Noah, who had found favour with God, would set out the
idea of the full knowledge of God in some distinct way.
J.T. He was a full grown man, the full idea of manhood is seen in Noah; it is a question too of his righteousness.
A.E.W. The suggestion of his being perfect seems to be the first introduction of that thought in Scripture; "Noah was a just man, perfect amongst his generations". I would like to understand a little more as to his character.
J.T. It is a question of having the senses exercised; a man is made perfect by the use of his senses, by learning to discern between good and evil. That is the idea. I think Noah was a man of that character; he had his senses exercised to discern between good and evil.
A.N.W. There is a reference in the footnote about the word "generations" in verse 9: "This is the history of Noah. Noah was ... perfect amongst his generations". The note says that "amongst his generations" refers to his contemporaries. He had a right setting in relation to his contemporaries, and walked with God in it.
C.H.H. Is that why he is spoken of as the "eighth"? Is that according to generation? According to history he was the tenth, was he not? Why would Peter say that he was the eighth, or one of eight?
J.T. Oh, I think that it is that he was one of eight instead of being one of ten or twelve; there were only eight souls in his house.
Ques. Were Noah's sons converted?
J.T. I would take them to be converted, to represent the idea that they were saved in his house.
R.H.S. I would like to ask you about Jehovah repenting, whether a similar feature is seen in Hosea where it speaks of Ephraim mixing himself with the peoples (chapter 7: 8). God proposes to bring judgment
upon them; but then in chapter 11 He says: "My repentings are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger ... for I am God, and not man", Hosea 11:8. Does that suggest that as God, speaking reverently, He can change His mind?
J.T. Just so, He can change His mind. It says here that it grieved Him at His heart that they went on in such a course. The word 'grief' is used in connection with divine Persons, as with the Holy Spirit; we may grieve the Holy Spirit. So that God may change His mind. It grieved Him at His heart that He had made man. He said that He would destroy him, but nevertheless He kept on with the idea of man; He did not abandon His thought. Therefore a divine Person became Man so that the whole idea might be maintained.
A.B.P. It says that Jehovah shut Noah into the ark. Is there some point in connection with that?
J.T. It shows how wonderfully God is concerned about this man Noah, how much He thought of him. He Himself shut him in; He made sure that he was protected. It is very beautiful I think to get that touch of God's interest in His people, in this case of Noah and his house.
A.B.P. Would the same feelings enter into the sealing of the Spirit?
J.T. Pretty much. You get first the anointing, then the sealing, then the earnest of the Spirit; there are those three things. God shutting Noah into the ark Himself showed the gracious consideration He had for him.
F.H.L. Does the pitch put within and without carry the thought of atonement, which would be in line with the counsels of God?
J.T. That is good. The pitch would make it secure from leakage; security was assured to Noah.
W.W.M. As we look at the degraded position of mankind today with such low morality among men,
should it not be a great encouragement to us that after God had spoken of repenting that He had made man, it says, "But Noah found favour in the eyes of Jehovah"? That would mean that God finds pleasure in those that are responding to His love, moving in the right way.
J.T. Noah, I would say, was qualifying for headship. A great matter was put into his hands and he was qualifying for it. He found favour in the eyes of the Lord.
A.J.B. Would there be any reference to Noah's headship in the fact that it says of the creatures, "And they went to Noah"? And then again, "They that came, came male and female". Is there something of the attractiveness of Christ there; or would it suggest attractiveness in the saints?
J.T. I think the attractiveness is in Noah, really. They came to him: "And they went to Noah, into the ark, two and two of all flesh"; and again, "They that came, came male and female of all flesh". They came, showing that he was attractive. I think that is what is meant, that he is qualifying for headship. The thought runs right through the chapter.
J.C. Would Noah and his family be a type of the whole christian company being carried through the waters of death?
J.T. Very likely, I would say that.
J.C. What about the smallness of the company of only eight souls as compared with the great work of christianity today? I suppose there are comparatively few, as compared to all in the world, who will be carried through the waters of judgment. But what about the animals? What do they represent?
J.T. They represent something of God I would think; these creatures that came into the ark would represent some feature of the work of God. We just have to accept the smallness of things. We have been going on with these little meetings for some
fifty years, or so, in this city, and there is very little result; but still there has been result. There are still brethren coming into fellowship, coming into the assembly, and that is worth while. And these creatures represent life in some sense, what the work of God is in some sense.
S.W. Does it not stimulate us to know that the assembly is going through? And would you say a word about the dimensions of the ark? It was not left to Noah to say what they were to be.
J.T. It was quite a large vessel, three hundred cubits, about four hundred and fifty feet I would say, showing how large the divine thoughts were, that there should be abundant salvation, plenty of room, not only for the men but for the animals as well.
S.W. Here we have only three dimensions, length, breadth, and height, but in Ephesians we have the fourth dimension.
J.T. Three would be the proper creational dimension; four is beyond that, it is an extra dimension; the fourth dimension is scientifically known to be that.
D.P. Noah did not appear to have a pattern for the ark?
J.T. God gave him the pattern. It is like the tabernacle, it was God-given.
W.W.M. There was only one window in the ark, apparently, and that was at the top, so they had to be looking up all the time.
J.T. Quite so, and it is good experience to be looking up. The Psalms, the Songs of degrees, speak about this very thing.
L.W. Would the pitch be in evidence today?
J.T. Yes; it is to keep out evil, to protect us from what is bad; it prevents leakage and the intrusion of what would damage us. The thing is intact.
S.C.M. Our households are to be kept in the same way, just as Moses was safe in the ark of reeds?
J.T. Just so, it keeps out the evil from our families.
Ques. Is the ark also a type of the Lord Jesus? We were quoting from Peter, "which figure also now saves you, even baptism", 1 Peter 3:21. We have been saying that the ark is a type of the assembly, which I think I see, but is it not also a type of Christ? This passage deals with the judgment of God and no one could bear it but He alone.
J.T. Quite so, it could be used in that sense; but it is more accurate to speak of it as the assembly or the house of God where there is protection for souls.
A.R. You have referred to it as to those that were saved at the end of Acts 2, those that were added to the assembly.
J.H.E. So salvation is in the assembly, in that sense, where our children are protected and cared for from the evil of the world around.
J.T. It says the Lord added to the assembly "those that were to be saved", Acts 2:47.
A.B.P. Would the features of life which go through in the ark for the filling out of the new world suggest that in the assembly at the present time the whole truth of God is being preserved; so that Israel will come into possession of what has been held intact?
J.T. That is very good; there is much truth in that to be looked into, what is carried over in view of the millennial day.
Ques. Noah was to take the creatures into the ark, it says in verse 19, "to keep them alive with thee", Genesis 6:19. I was thinking that is really what Paul did in the shipwreck. The souls were given to him and he has kept them alive, would you say?
G.H. It is beautiful how God takes such care of His servants. It says about Noah that "Jehovah shut him in"; and in connection with Moses that Jehovah Himself buried Moses. He took care of him Himself.
J.T. Very good; He buried Moses and He shut Noah in. And He is acting for us now too, for young people especially.
V.C.L. While nothing is said about the faith of Noah's sons and daughters, nevertheless God told Noah to take them with him into the ark. Everything depended upon Noah.
A.R. Do we get a happy result in chapter 8? It says, "And Noah built an altar to Jehovah; and took of every clean animal, and of all clean fowl, and offered up burnt-offerings on the altar. And Jehovah smelled the sweet odour", Genesis 8:20 - 21.
J.T. It shows that Noah went all the way with what was to be done. It would seem that he went beyond what he was directed to do.
Rem. In this chapter it says, "The end of all flesh is come before me". I was wondering if baptism is the way we come to it; that is, we bring in baptism into our houses and maintain the truth of it in ourselves.
A.B.P. Are we to understand that this all flows out of the faithfulness of one man? Is the point in our reading tonight to emphasize the possibilities there are if one person is walking according to the will of God?
J.T. Yes; how much is made of Noah in the prophets! Much is made of him, and of Job and of Daniel, but we are told that they can only save themselves under certain conditions, showing that as members of the household we have to take heed to ourselves under these conditions. You cannot rely
on the righteousness of a father or a mother, you have to take heed to yourself. The prophets teach us on these points.
A.B.P. But would not our scripture this evening encourage every householder to act in faith for the preservation of his house? Would not each of us who are householders be stimulated by this principle to hold our households?
J.T. Yes indeed; but another thing I am referring to is what these men are in themselves: Job, Noah and Daniel. When things were not right one of these men could save the testimony himself; the testimony is bound up with himself. According to Ezekiel 14, the prophet looks after himself and looks after the testimony. Even if his house is not right the prophet looks after the testimony.
A.D. At the beginning of chapter 8 it says, "And God remembered Noah, and all the animals, and all the cattle that were with him in the ark", Genesis 8:1. He was the faithful one; it does not mention his sons or his sons' wives.
J.T. It is just what we have been saying, that one man can stand for the testimony; one prophet such as Noah or Job or Daniel can preserve the testimony even if his house is not right.
Rem. David said, "Although my house be not so"; 2 Samuel 23:5 he would serve Jehovah.
A.N.W. Perhaps that is conveyed in the statement at the end of verse 23, "And Noah alone remained, and what was with him in the ark". It is interesting the way that is put, "what was with him in the ark". He stands, and whatever is linked with him is preserved..
J.T. That is one point I thought that we should not leave out, as to what can be done by one man, even though his house is not right, only himself.
There are such cases as that. One man can preserve the testimony.
S.W. Would not this chapter show too the God-given ability to man to carry out and maintain instructions given him?
J.T. It would. God says to him, "Thee have I seen"; God has His eye on Noah.
Ques. In view of what you have been saying as to one man, it has been said in times past that if a man did not have his household right he was disqualified to exercise oversight in the assembly. Is that right?
J.T. That is true too; at the same time though his house be not right, he can preserve the thing himself. That is what the prophets teach, that certain righteous persons can preserve the testimony themselves even if their families may not be preserved, showing the value of a godly man, a righteous man. That is the point of it.
Genesis 12:1 - 3; Genesis 14:14 - 24; Genesis 15:1 - 7; Genesis 17:1 - 14
J.T. The many references made to Abraham in these scriptures are to be noted, reminding us that he is the father of us all, of all humanity; that it is not Adam who is the father of us all, but Abraham. The Lord said of him, "Your father Abraham exulted in that he should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced", John 8:56. He is the father of us all.
G.H. What is involved in that expression: The father of us all?
J.T. All believers, all of us. We have read from Genesis 12 to bring out his call, as it is said, "And Jehovah had said to Abram, Go out of thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to the land that I will shew thee. And I will make of thee a great nation, and bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. And Abram departed as Jehovah had said to him. And Lot went with him". It might be just as well to call attention to Lot, as to whether Abram made a right choice in taking his nephew with him, for eventually he left him and had to be rescued from his captors.
S.W. Would you say that there were potentialities in Abram that would lead God to select him?
J.T. Oh clearly; He knew him. God says, "I know him". It is a peculiar thing; it is rarely that you get such an expression. Jehovah said, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:19.
C.F.E. He was marked by obedience, was he not?
J.T. Quite so, that is just the point, he was marked by obedience.
C.A.M. As to manhood, you are looking at Abraham, are you not, as to origin? Do you mean there was origin in him? You were contrasting him with Adam?
J.T. Well, I think that is true; he is the father of us all so he must be the head.
A.R. Is that not the point in the verses which we have read: "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed"?
J.T. That is the indication of what he is in the mind of God. All families of the earth are to be blessed. And not only is he the father of them all, but they are blessed in him.
Ques. What is in view in "all families"?
J.T. It says, "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". Well now, we have to contrast that passage with a passage in Ephesians 3 in which Paul says, "I bow my knees to the Father ... of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named", Ephesians 3:14,15. So that there you get a contrast. It is just the earth that is blessed in Abraham, but from God Himself it is every family in the heavens and on the earth that is blessed; God is the Blesser of them all.
Ques. Would the fact that the Lord Jesus refers to certain ones as a son of Abraham and a daughter of Abraham confirm that the beginning is with Abraham?
J.T. These two are mentioned in the gospel of Luke; it is characteristic.
R.W.S. Does the early part of Genesis 11 indicate the dishonour that had come upon men following on Babel where God confounded their language and scattered them? It says in verse 9, "And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth", Genesis 11:9. Is that a sort of background to what He is about to secure in Abraham and his family?
J.T. The chapter begins, "And the whole earth had one language, and the same words" Genesis 11:1 and then it proceeds in verse 6, "Behold, the people is one, and have all one language; and this have they begun to do. And now will they be hindered in nothing that they meditate doing. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language", Genesis 11:6,7. That is to say, it was a combination, not of God nor divinely designed; it was a great combination and they would do great things. They had said, "Come on, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, Come on, let us build ourselves a city and a tower: the top of which may reach to the heavens; and let us make ourselves a name", Genesis 11:3,4. It was not God's name they had in mind, but their own name.
R.W.S. The devil would dishonour manhood; but God is now about to honour it in calling Abram alone and blessing him.
J.T. Quite so; it says in Isaiah 51:2, "I called him when he wag alone, and blessed him".
S.C.M. Does sovereignty enter into this?
J.T. Clearly; it is a question of God selecting a man that He knew. He says, "I know him"; he was a man that would command his household and his children, those coming after him. It is a great matter that our children should be brought up rightly so that they may reflect God and set forth the truth in their walk.
A.N.W. The prophet is addressing those that follow after righteousness in that passage in Isaiah; he says, "Ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek Jehovah: look unto the rock whence ye were hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye were digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bore you", Isaiah 51:1,2.
J.T. So that the father and mother are in mind, you mean?
A.N.W. Yes; I thought that faith saw with God there, as to the father and mother.
A.Macd. Is there any link with the fact that Stephen in his address begins with the God of glory appearing to Abraham?
J.T. Beautiful! It is a beautiful passage, ending in his own martyrdom as he says, "I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:56. It is a very beautiful passage and one that ought to have been mentioned at the very beginning of our reading. What else had you in mind?
A.Macd. I was only bringing it in to support what you were saying, the importance Abraham has in connection with manhood.
J.T. So that the Lord speaks of him in the passage as to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sitting down in the kingdom in the millennium.
J.T.Jr. The glory being brought in in that chapter would fit in with what you have in mind in regard to manhood, man in relation to glory.
J.T. Just so; surely God had Christ in mind in all that we are saying, that He was to become Man, He was to take man's place.
V.C.L. While sovereignty comes into it, is there not the feature of nazariteship worked out in the fact that Abraham separated himself and went out according to God's word?
J.T. He delayed a bit, of course; that has to be recognized. Stephen tells us that, but still he came to the mind of God and went out. Eventually he did what he was told to do. It is a great matter that we carry out the will of God even though we delay in doing it.
G.V.D. The record in Hebrews is that, being called, he obeyed to go out. I was wondering if the opening of 1 Corinthians in which the apostle addresses them as called saints, or saints by divine calling, "with all that in every place call on the name", 1 Corinthians 1:2 would bring us in with Abraham on this line of being called out?
J.T. Quite so. And he is called "believing Abraham", Galatians 3:9 that is to say he is the man of faith. Faith largely began with him, you might say; he was marked by faith. The expression "believing Abraham" is characteristic.
A.B.P. Is his life as a pilgrim and a stranger intended to be exemplary for the believer?
J.T. Just so. He looked for a city too, which had foundations, whose builder and maker is God. He linked himself up with God in the idea of foundations.
Rem. Abraham answered to what Jehovah said to him. Is that the outcome with a man who has faith?
J.T. Just so, it is the obedience of faith, that is the point in Romans; "for obedience of faith to all the nations", Romans 16:26. There is no christianity without faith, no christianity at all without faith. It is founded in faith.
D.P. Do moral conditions underlie sovereign choice?
J.T. Well, they must agree, of course. God takes us up on the principle of new birth; in the new birth there is a wholly new beginning in man, a wholly new beginning. And of course Abraham would have to come into that too, although it is not specified; but he would have to come into that as did all the other believers that are mentioned in Hebrews 11. "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God", Hebrews 11:3. It is a question of faith.
A.R. It says in Galatians that the dispensation in which we are is one of faith. Does Abraham antedate our dispensation?
J.T. No, he does not; our dispensation is the greatest of all dispensations. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself has inaugurated it; and so the apostles were ordained in view of it, in view of the gospel; it says, "First, Simon", Matthew 10:2 he was the first one, the leader, and he is the first one to preach the gospel.
E.A.L. What is the idea of the land being mentioned first: "Go out of thy land"? Is that over against "the land that I will shew thee"? Is it to stress that?
J.T. It says, "And Jehovah had said to Abram, Go out of thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to the land that I will shew thee". The land of Canaan was in mind, and Abram was to come into it; that is what is in mind in all this. But in order to pursue our subject we must proceed to chapter 14 which relates to the war of the kings; what comes out as to Abraham in that chapter should now be considered. It says in the 18th verse of chapter 13, "Then Abram moved his tents, and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are in Hebron", Genesis 13:18. It is pre-eminently the idea of the land; Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt; "And he built there an altar to Jehovah". Then it goes on to speak of a conflict that had to be entered upon by Abram and certain allies that we are told of in verse 13 and that "Abram heard that his brother was taken captive", Genesis 14:13. A point that we should consider now is whether we are able to deliver people that have been taken captive by sin or any other influence; whether we are able to deliver them, or whether they are hindered from being in the full thought of the truth of the assembly because they are captive. So that it says, "And Abram heard that his brother was taken captive; and he led out his trained servants, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them as far as Dan".
That is, he was ready for an emergency, to deliver his brother.
A.B.P. This is urgently needed in our current city exercises.
J.T. Many have been led away, they have to be delivered; is that in your mind?
A.B.P. Yes, cases that are currently in the exercises of the brethren. We need help on how to rescue our brethren.
A.A.T. What are the trained servants in christianity?
J.T. Those that are trained can enter on warfare, they can skilfully enter on warfare. They must be taught, that is to say, taught to contend for the truth once delivered to the saints. But that is the idea: contend for it!
J.H.E. True manhood is seen here; he was willing to lay down his life.
J.T. That is quite right and he was skilful; it says, "And he divided himself against them by night, he and his servants, and smote them, and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is to the left of Damascus. And he brought back all the property, and brought again his brother Lot and his property"; notice that, "his brother Lot and his property". "And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after he had returned from smiting Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, into the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's valley. And Melchisedec king of Salem brought out bread and wine. And he was priest of the Most High God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth. And blessed be the Most High God, who has delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him the tenth of all. And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the souls, and take the property for thyself. And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah, the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth, if from a thread even to a sandal-thong, yes, if of all that is thine, I take anything ... ; that thou mayest not say, I have made Abram rich; save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men that went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre, let them take their portion".
That is to say, he, Abram, would not be indebted to the world for anything.
A.B.P. Is it not of interest that the word "enemies" occurs here for the first time in Scripture?
F.H.L. And the word "priest" too. I suppose that after the conflict the test comes as to the world's glory, and then the priest of the Most High God comes in.
J.T. It is encouraging to me to hear all this. Will you enlarge upon what you have said.
F.H.L. What has just been said as to enemies is striking, and then God brings His priest to light at the critical moment in Abram's history when it is a question whether the man of faith will succumb to the enemy or whether he will be maintained in his relations with God.
A.N.W. I was struck as you re-read those verses how the relation is changed from the "brother's son" to the "brother" with respect to Lot. Does that enforce the obligation upon us to deliver, as has been said? It is a closer link, the word "brother" seems to enforce the obligation. Abram took him out as his brother's son, but now it is his brother.
J.T. To be called a brother is greater, he is raised, really; it is a greater thing to be a brother than a nephew.
F.W. Is this the defence of the truth for the truth's sake so that all may be benefited by it? I was thinking of our own dispensation, that the truth was lost sight of and persons were in darkness; and then God came in in His sovereignty and raised up men who were prepared to stand for the truth. They rescued the truth, as it were, that all might be benefited by it.
J.T. Quite so; tell us of some of those men who were used in that way.
F.W. Well, amongst others, I was thinking of Luther.
J.T. Very good, and of course you go back to Paul, and Peter who was the first preacher of the gospel. He was one of the twelve.
F.W. Would there be what answers to that idea in Abram here? In connection with the conflict for the truth, after darkness had supervened, it needed the power of God to come in and raise this conflict. The truth was opposed and there were men who were prepared to stand for it; and when they did stand for it souls found the truth available to them so that they might be blessed. Lot was in that position, was he not, but he did not get the full benefit of it.
J.T. I think it is well to begin at the beginning as to anything we are considering, and the conflict entering into christianity really began with Peter. I mean to say he was the first apostle. Of course the Lord Jesus began the conflict, but now we are dealing with His servants and what they are capable of. And so I think Peter stood his ground well in Acts 2; and then in chapter 3, how he speaks about the prophets, every one of them, as bearing witness!
F.N.W. Do Peter and Paul represent conflict in a spiritual position, as Abram does in moving to Hebron?
J.T. Very good, in a spiritual position; and, in figure, his servants could not be trained servants if they were not spiritual; Abram's servants were trained, three hundred and eighteen of them. But Peter, of course, was a trained servant of Christ, and he preached the gospel wonderfully in Acts 2, and then in chapter 3 as showing how all the prophets came into it.
A.B.P. Is it of interest that these persons became enemies to Abram because they had taken Lot captive? There was no direct act against Abram.
J.T. It was a question of the brother, you mean, of rescuing the brother.
A.B.P. I wonder if this does not help us to take account of things that are against the testimony? Persons may not be against us personally for us to regard them as enemies; if they are against Christ and against the truth they are our enemies.
J.T.Jr. The crisis brought out the things Abram had. If there is a crisis or anything difficult it should bring out what there is amongst us.
J.T. What there is amongst us, what we have, whether brothers or sisters. And it is well to notice that both are taken account of in the matter of conflict. We are now dealing with the conflict, and the occasion of it was Lot, Abram's nephew, but regarded as a brother. He did not go after him because he was his nephew, but because he was a brother.
Ques. What is the thought of the servants being born in his house?
J.T. That shows that he was a man of influence and means; people cannot have a household like this and have servants born in it without having means. If we transfer the idea of means, it is what is spiritual, whether we have those that will go out and suffer for the sake of the brother. That is the idea.
Ques. Is there any thought in it as to being brought up in the truth? Would that enter into it?
A.R. Abram's allies are spoken of in verse 13. There is a footnote which says it means 'masters of covenant'.
J.T. That is the idea, there is an honourable link with his allies, they were masters of covenant. And we have come into covenant; in the Lord's supper we have come into covenant.
J.T.Jr. So the idea of being born in the house would perhaps link on with what we were saying yesterday as to Ecclesiastes and the time of one's birth; that is, the idea of birth here would suggest other things, I suppose, as to our origin.
J.T. So we have to come back to the idea of new birth; it is not the natural birth, it is the new one -- "anew", it means 'entirely afresh'. Really what is meant is born throughout, from the top to the bottom; the whole matter in the believer has to be dealt with anew, from top to bottom.
V.C.L. And then does not the matter of training involve the suggestion of command which marks Abram in a later chapter as to commanding his household? Would that not mean now that we come under the authority of the truth and the power of the Spirit to be trained?
J.T. I would say that. Abram's family would be marked by this, and we are all Abram's children; therefore the whole matter should be brought up as to whether we are really born anew, from the top to the bottom.
C.A.M. It is remarkable, is it not, that it says that he "led" them; he led out his trained servants. As we think of one another with this spiritual origin and history we have only one will, I mean we are not governed by our own wills, we are led.
J.T. We have to have leaders; he led them out. They were not only his trained servants but he led them. So that the word is, "leaders led in Israel", Judges 5:2. Alas! there are few; there is a great lack of leaders in every department, spiritually, a great lack. And so Deborah says, "For that leaders led in Israel, ... Bless Jehovah", Judges 5:2.
A.T.D. Abram qualified because he obeyed to go out.
J.T. That is so, he obeyed to start with, there was proper subjection to start with. Hebrews 11 would show that faith is the basis of all.
D.P. Would this military side be seen in Paul putting forward Timothy at Corinth, and Titus at Crete?
J.T. Just so. He speaks much of both; they were, you might say, his trained servants; Timothy and Titus are different from any other servants because they are subordinate to Paul. They are not like John or the others, they are subordinate to Paul; and so Abram comes in as leader on that line.
Rem. Romans 16 gives us a good list of trained servants, both sisters and brothers.
J.T. Very good. It begins, "But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea; that ye may receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you; for she also has been a helper of many, and of myself", Romans 16:1,2. And then a long list follows. They were all trained servants, all these men and women, and Paul regarded them in that light. And that is the question for us now, and for the young people here, to be subject to their elders and ready to do things.
Ques. Would this principle be seen in relation to Joshua who got his training under Moses? Then in Numbers 27:15 - 17 when Moses was looking for
a man who could lead out the assembly and bring them in, Jehovah told him to take Joshua, a man in whom was the Spirit.
J.T. Just so, will you kindly read the passage?
Rem. "And Moses spoke to Jehovah, saying, Let Jehovah, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the assembly, who may go out before them, and who may come in before them, and who may lead them out, and who may bring them in", Numbers 27:15 - 17
J.T. "Lead them out, and ... bring them in", that is the idea; do not let them be scattered, drawn into the world in the meantime; bring them back again.
A.B.P. Would the principle of care and training and authority be seen pre-eminently in the Lord in the way He developed the disciples for their apostleship? I have in mind the generality of His dealings with them, the way He could say at the end, "When I sent you ... lacked ye anything?" Luke 22:35 as though the spirit of fatherhood was with Him as well as that of authority in rebuking, if need be, as He was training them in view of their service.
J.T. They came under His tuition; He was the Leader in everything, as Paul says: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ", 1 Corinthians 11:1.
J.T.Jr. So the Lord says to Peter and John, "I will make you fishers of men"; Matthew 4:19. I will make you that.
J.T. That is, they are not simply to be trained, but He says, "I will make you fishers of men". And there were many besides the twelve.
F.N.W. As in Luke 10, "Now after these things the Lord appointed seventy others also", Luke 10:1.
J.T. That is just the verse I was thinking of.
F.N.W. And such persons had their names written in heaven.
A.N.W. And of the twelve themselves it says in chapter 9, "And having called together the twelve, he gave them power and authority over all demons", Luke 9:1
G.H. It speaks of certain ones who were in the school of Tyrannus for about three years. Would that fit in here as suggestive of training?
J.T. Very good, the school of Tyrannus. You might say that it is the idea of a tyrant, but young people need to be brought under the rule of a dominating man so that they may be subdued and trained.
A.R. Do we see the evidence of skilful training in the way the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews brings forward Melchisedec? He was a mysterious man, having neither father nor mother, beginning of days, nor end of life, and likened unto the Son of God.
J.T. That is the person you get here, who says, "And blessed be the Most High God, who has delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him the tenth of all. And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the souls, and take the property for thyself". That was a misleading thought: "Give me the souls, and take the property for thyself"; that is, the souls would be persons; property is not persons, property is nothing to be compared with persons. And that is what the king of Sodom wanted Abram to take, but Abram would not admit of that at all, he would not take anything from the world.
A.R. Do you think Melchisedec helped him to give this answer to the king of Sodom?
J.T. I should think so. And now I think we should get on to the idea of "the word" in chapter 15. This is the first mention of "the word" in the Bible. "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord Jehovah, what wilt thou give me? seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus. And Abram said, Lo, to me thou hast given no seed, and behold, a son of my house will be mine heir. And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying, This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body shall be thine heir. And he led him out, and said, Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them. And he said to him, So shall thy seed be! And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness".
That is one of the great things as to Abraham being our father, that he is righteous. So that you have, "So shall thy seed be! And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness". It was reckoned righteousness, the great principle of righteousness being reckoned to a person. And that is where Abraham came into the great feature of his life; it was reckoned to him as righteousness that he believed God; he was Abraham the believer.
F.H.L. So that the apostle speaking to the Galatians says again, "So that they who are on the principle of faith are blessed with believing Abraham", Galatians 3:19.
J.T. "Believing Abraham"! Beautiful passage!
A.B.P. Romans 10 says, "Faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word", Romans 10:17.
J.T. That is how faith comes; a very great point in Romans, how faith comes; it is the gift of God, but it comes by God's word; it is the word of God that is the idea, leading up to faith.
E.A.L. Had Abraham really gotten the victory over the world in this chapter? In 1 John 5 we have, "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith", 1 John 5:4.
J.T. That is a passage that ought to be enlarged on: "our faith", not simply faith by itself, but "our faith", what a christian really has.
Ques. And another passage in Romans 4 speaks of "those also who walk in the steps of the faith ... of our father Abraham", Romans 4:12. That would be the way Abraham walked; is that it?
J.T. Just so, "in the steps of the faith", one after the other.
R.W.S. When he says, in verse 8, "How shall I know?" that is not an evidence of the lack of faith, is it?
J.T. No; and God tells him what to do that he may know. He says to him, "Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon". Notice the age, full maturity, the age of three; these were the ones he was to take. But then Jehovah tells him what to do; he has now to be fully in faith in what he is doing. The word of God is the point.
A.R. Do the female animals being brought forward indicate that Abraham should be in correspondence with them?
J.T. Quite so. He said to God, "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know?" That is a beautiful enquiry, "How shall I know?", and he makes that enquiry of Jehovah Himself. In verse 1 it says, "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward". That is how God is introduced, He introduces Himself to Abram. He says that He is a shield to him; yet Abram says that He has given him nothing. But presently he comes to the point of the whole matter, he says to Jehovah, "How shall I know?" and Jehovah tells him how to know; He directs him to take these animals. "Take me a heifer of three years old", that is the first thing, "and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon". The ages of the turtle-dove
and of the pigeon are not mentioned, but it is a question of the creatures; they are to be prolific in order to produce what is needed. That is the idea of the whole passage.
R.H.S. Have you any thought why this first mention of the word of God should take the form of a committal on the part of Jehovah toward Abram?
J.T. It is God doing it in His grace.
A.E.W. Is it not clear that God intends to support this kind of man from heaven, support him from Himself?
J.T. This kind of man, that is the idea; not Adam but Abraham.
A.E.W. In the previous chapter Abram spurned receiving anything from the king of Sodom; but here he receives much. There is the thought of the "word" that you have mentioned, and then the idea of the shield and the exceeding great reward, and then the thought of the seed, and even the thought of righteousness being reckoned. It is all from God's side, He would support him on that basis.
J.T. Just so, so that he is called Abraham the believer. What a beautiful title, believing Abraham!
A.A.T. I notice that Abram got that word in a vision. Does the word come to us today in a ministry meeting?
J.T. Well, if you got something like that from God it would be worth speaking about! Did you ever get something like this? You must get a word from God if you are going to give it out to the saints, you must get something from God.
L.W. Is the heavenly company in view in the verse 5? "Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them".
J.T. The stars represent a heavenly thought. Abram is not said to have any generations, it is a
remarkable thing. Although he is a wonderful man he is not said to have any generations, it is what he is in himself, and that is from heaven. He is ministered to from heaven.
Ques. In chapter 13 Jehovah says that his seed is to be as the dust of the earth. Here in chapter 15 it is as the stars of heaven. In between these chapters Melchisedec has come in; has that any connection between these two?
J.T. Well, quite, there must be something to that in relation to heaven because Melchisedec was the priest of the Most High God. That is his title in this book and in the book of Hebrews.
A.B.P. Did you suggest that there is the idea of multiplication in these female offerings?
J.T. Of course the heifer is a female, that is the first creature mentioned; a heifer peculiarly represents love, affection. Then the two last creatures are said to be a turtle-dove and a young pigeon; there the ages are not mentioned.
A.B.P. The first two are female, the heifer and the she-goat. I thought you were connecting that with the idea of multiplication.
J.T. With fruitfulness, quite so.
T.E.H. As is the heavenly One so also are the heavenly ones. That would be fruitfulness.
R.W.S. In our reading tonight are not features of this order of manhood taking form in our minds? We have the thoughts of believing, of leadership and of heavenly-mindedness. Our previous readings have been pretty general I thought, but we are coming now to specific features of manhood which please God.
J.T. Quite so. And then it is remarkable the variety of things that comes before us here, male and female and other remarkable features. One has been struck of late as to the idea of the house of God, the many things connected with it that are not
specifically mentioned. We have just got to leave it open. The house may take a certain material form; but the idea of it, the place for God, is a great thought in Scripture. It is not just any house, but the house of God.
Ques. What is the force of the name, "Lord Jehovah"?
J.T. "Lord" would be in the sense of authority. "Jehovah" is mentioned first in chapter 2 of this book, not in chapter 1 but in the second, as if God was coming into covenant relation with His people. That is the idea of it; and the title "Lord" added to it would be authority. We feel the need of authority in these circumstances.
Ques. You referred to the house of God. I wondered why you bring that in here? What have we to see in that?
J.T. It is not because it is specifically mentioned here, only these features would suggest it. So going on to the 11th verse, "And the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away. And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him. And he said to Abram, Know assuredly that thy seed will be a sojourner in a land that is not theirs, and they shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years. But also that nation which they shall serve I will judge; and afterwards they shall come out with great property. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full", Genesis 15:11 - 16. Notice that God is waiting for some iniquity to come to its fulness. And then it says, in verse 17, "And it came to pass when the sun had gone down, and it was dark, that behold, there was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces. On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates", Genesis 15:17 - 18
so that God is now leading up to something that He is going to confirm to Abram, this wonderful inheritance, the wonderful inheritance he is coming into.
F.H.L. Was Abram's concern that he should have a generation to follow on, a question of continuing the link with God so as to take up the inheritance?
J.T. I would think so, I would think that is just the truth. And how great the number of years that would elapse! But God is patient, He is going to keep on until the iniquity of the Amorites is full. And so it is with much that goes on now, that God must have certain rights in the sense of patience, the rights of patience.
A.R. Do these boundaries in the end of the chapter refer to the millennium, or did David ever fully take all this territory?
J.T. In Matthew we have the Son of David first, and then the Son of Abraham. But David is the king, the one that can do things militarily.
C.A.M. I was thinking of this matter of the Euphrates, how great the extent of it! It seems to look forward to David's day. It says that David went to establish his dominion by the river Euphrates; that would suggest a very extensive matter.
J.T. It is the eastern territory, the region between the east and the west. It comes in in the book of Revelation. It is seen in the 16th chapter of that book.
C.A.M. That is very interesting; it greatly, enlarges the view in this chapter. What an immense and extended view it is! The subject is so large that one has a great desire to be expanded as we think of the greatness of Abraham and of what God says about him.
J.H.E. Would it not be almost like the breadth and length and depth and height?
J.T. Just so, the breadth and the length and the depth and the height. That is an Ephesian measure.
Ques. Would you say a little about how to scare away intruding influences? I was thinking of the apostle Paul saying, "I buffet my body and lead it captive", 1 Corinthians 9:27. He would not tolerate anything that would hinder. Was not that the same line that Abram was on here? He was scaring away the birds. How often in the morning meeting thoughts come in when we are occupied with the service of praise; thoughts about our businesses or families or things like that, and they should be put out of our minds.
J.T. Paul had complete control of his body so that he would "lead it captive" and would not be carried away by natural influences. And as to alien thoughts, you would scare them away. How often we entertain them and begin to think of our circumstances or what we may have to do under certain circumstances.
T.E.H. You suggested recently in the morning meeting that the scaring away of these birds continues throughout the whole of the Lord's day, and possibly the week.
J.T. Very good, the whole day; I think that is a fine thing that we should keep the Lord's day for the Lord and not use it for other things. It is the Lord's day and it is called the first day of the week too in order to give it another distinction. The first day of the week is the Lord's day. The Lord's day is a matter of His authority, of what belongs to Him on that day.
Ques. Is not the object of the enemy to rob God both in Sodom with the matter of taking the souls, and here with the birds of prey that came down?
J.T. Quite so; "Will a man rob God?" Malachi 3:8 it says in Malachi.
E.A.L. Is that not what the enemy ever has in mind? We see that early in man's history, that Cain because of the operation of his will was used of the enemy to rob God of a worshipper.
J.T. And how Satan seduced Eve, too, how the woman became deceived.
Ques. Would you say that a man who is under the influence of the word of God as Abram is here, has the power to scare the birds away?
J.T. That is what our brother has been saying, that you get damaged if you entertain these thoughts on the first day of the week. The idea is to scare away the evil.
A.B.P. According to Hebrews the word divides between the thoughts and intents of the heart. Would it be right to say that if the thoughts are not judged, they become intents?
F.N.W. Would not that passage as referring to Abram show that the more we have to do with God the more the truth penetrates us?
J.T. Just so. Now we come to chapter 17. It says, "And Abram was ninety-nine years old, when Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God: walk before my face, and be perfect. And I will set my covenant between me and thee, and will very greatly multiply thee. And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying, It is I". It is, as it were, God speaking as a man to his fellow; God graciously coming down in that sense to Abram. I think that is very beautiful: "It is I". He says, "Behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of a multitude of nations". It is a covenant, an engagement, that God is making with Abram: "It is I", as if God is willing to let Himself be known to Abram in this beautiful way in the sense of covenant.
R.W.S. This is greater than anything that has gone before; are we not moving on in our apprehension of God now that He has confidence in Abram?
J.T. Just so; so that chapter 17 is a sort of climax as to Abram being brought into personal relations with Jehovah, who says to him, "It is I".
F.H.L. There is a beautiful link with Psalm 105. I notice that the word covenant appears fourteen times in our chapter, and in the psalm it says, "He is ever mindful of his covenant, -- the word which he commanded to a thousand generations, -- which he made with Abraham", Psalm 105:8,9. It is the whole generation of faith coming into the good of the covenant.
J.T. Very good; I think that is a very beautiful psalm, one has often pondered upon it: "He is ever mindful of his covenant", Psalm 105:8. He never gives it up.
F.S.C. Would it be here that "He takes hold of the seed of Abraham" Hebrews 2:16 according to Hebrews 2?
R.D.G. Inasmuch as it says of Abram that he was to be a father not just of a nation, but of nations, is it evident that God had what was spiritual in mind?
J.T. Surely; and what a man he was! You just wonder what Abraham will be in eternity, what a place he will have. It is a question to look into, the place a man like Abraham will have. Nobody else is quite like him that I can think of in his dispensation.
R.D.G. So that we are not linked with failure, we are linked with Abraham, the man of faith.
J.T. Very good. And we can talk to Abraham's seed according to flesh about that too; the time has come that we should talk to them and tell them that the millennial moment is coming and ask them if they are ready for it? I do not think that they are,
although they have Palestine again and much is taking place but where is it leading to?
E.S. Is that why the Lord makes distinction in John 8 between Abraham's seed and Abraham's children? He says, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, ... If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham", John 8:39.
J.T. And so the Lord says, "This did not Abraham", John 8:40 that is, they were not like Abraham. And that is the point, I think; we ought to come to the idea of the Abrahamic family; he is the father of us all.
T.E.H. The poor man in Luke 16 found himself at great disadvantage in this world, but he finally found himself in the bosom of Abraham. What a wonderful place, to be with a father like that!
D.P. Are the blessings of Abraham wider than the blessings of the assembly? What I mean is, do Abraham's blessings extend beyond the blessings of the assembly?
J.T. They are not wider than the assembly, for there is no other family like the assembly. In general terms I would say that the blessings of Abraham extend to Israel, but the assembly is the Lamb's wife, the bride of Christ, and she must come into all that He has in that sense. It must be the greatest of all inheritances. As to what the bride is by itself, there is no other family or thing to compare with it.
J.T.Jr. So it is, "Let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26 in the beginning.
J.T. Just so, that is Christ and the assembly. "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32. Paul says; she is coming into the dominion. "Let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26.
Genesis 18:1 - 33; Genesis 20:1,2
J.T. In taking Man for our subject it is not merely to consider him in the purely natural condition in which he may be, but as the subject of divine work. So that Abraham, to whom we have now come, affords much in this sense, God having wrought with him peculiarly. According to chapter 12 He directed him to leave his country, his kindred and his father's house; and he obeyed, which is a good mark of manhood. Another thing that strikes one as we come to the present chapter is the familiarity he had with God, and yet in a humble and simple way, which is to be followed I am sure by us all. I mean the idea of simplicity and sincerity which the chapter affords to us. It will be noticed that, "Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he sat at the tent-door in the heat of the day. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him. And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent-door", showing that he was free inwardly as well as outwardly; "and bowed himself to the earth, and said, Lord, if now I have found favour in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched", and so forth. This opening of the chapter shows the liberty he had with God; he was, as we sometimes use the term, on good terms with God; and it might be added, God was on good terms with him. The incarnation, and the redemption based upon it, brings out all these things, the terms on which we may be with God according to the terms on which He is with us.
W.W.M. Do you think the fact that Abraham was sitting would suggest a state in which Jehovah would be complacent? Would it suggest a restful state in the saints?
J.T. Yes; and he was taking advantage of circumstances which would make his position more comfortable. He was sitting at his tent-door in the heat of the day.
A.R. Three men are referred to in verse 2 but in verse 3 Abraham says, "Lord", as if he has one Person particularly in mind. Would that suggest that spirituality marked him?
J.T. There were three persons and he distinguished one of them as Jehovah, whereas the other two were angels. So that he had spiritual discernment.
A.R. You spoke about the incarnation which makes all plain to us. Would this visitation be anticipative of it?
J.T. It would imply that God has come down: 'God come down, a heavenly Stranger'. (Hymn 112). God Himself has come down, in incarnation. That is what exists now; not then, but now. Incarnation had not then taken place, but it has now, and everything is based upon it.
J.H.E. Would Abraham's liberty with Jehovah be a state reached as a result of his action in the preceding chapter in regard of circumcision? He would be free of self.
J.T. Quite so. Circumcision, if taken up according to the epistle to the Colossians, sets us free; we are delivered from the power of the flesh as circumcised.
C.A.M. Would you say something as to how it takes form that we should show our appreciation of such a visit? Abraham suggests a little water, and the consideration for a little rest. How are we enabled to do this service in connection with divine Persons?
J.T. Well, it is a question of our knowledge of God I would say. God has come in in Christ so that we should know Him and be set free in freedom.
The incarnation, and redemption accomplished on the basis of it, enables God to give us this privilege, to afford pleasure to divine Persons in such wonderful liberty.
C.A.M. Was it the Lord's grace in John 4 that gave the woman the opportunity of doing a service for Him?
J.T. Yes, quite. She had the opportunity to render Him a service. He had said, "Give me to drink", John 4:7.
C.A.M. Yes, it is wonderful that a divine Person should make it possible for her to serve Him.
J.T. Quite so; He "sat just as he was at the fountain", John 4:6. It was Himself, come down in that way.
A.N.W. You spoke of Abraham's simplicity; is that not seen in the ease with which he can address either the one Person or the three? There is no confusion in his mind; he is as much at ease in addressing the three as in addressing the One.
J.T. Just so; and so it says, "And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him". Now the word 'standing' there implies that they took up the position deliberately, not casually but deliberately; there is a certain attitude implied in the manner of the standing. And then it goes on, "And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent-door", that is to say, he is ready to leave a comfortable position and exert himself; "and bowed himself to the earth", he discerned what was suitable; "and said, Lord"; he knows what term to use; he is reverential. "If now I have found favour in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched, that ye", the 'ye' is the plural, that is to say he quickly turns over to the plural including the other two, and addresses them accordingly; "that ye may wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant. And they said",
the three spoke, as it were, "So do as thou hast said". The passage is perfectly beautiful, and orderly and right in every way.
F.H.L. Are there some features of manhood shining out in the three men, which link up with our subject? I was considering the emphasis on men throughout the chapter; it says, "the men rose up thence", and so forth. At the beginning of the next chapter it is two angels. Are the features of manhood coming to light here?
J.T. It is questionable if we should stress features of manhood as seen in the three.
A.N.W. Have you a point in saying that they were angels?
J.T. No, not much; it is known from the context that they were. But whether the features of manhood exist is a question. If we transfer that question to Abraham, I would say that there is a little discrepancy in what comes out in the chapter, especially the idea of beginning with fifty and coming down to ten and then stopping there in his intercession. Why does he do that? Why does he not speak plainly at first? I think there is a little discrepancy there in Abraham.
F.H.L. In reference to the Lord in John 1 the Baptist says, "There standeth one", John 1:26 the same idea as here, meaning taking up a position. So also in relation to Laodicea and the thought of One standing there at the door. You were referring to the Lord Jesus in His lowly manhood in John 4, and I wondered if there was anything of that character to be seen here So that Abraham would recognize a divine Person?
J.T. Quite so, he recognizes a divine Person, clearly. But then when we come down to all the facts in the chapter there are certain discrepancies to
be noticed in Abraham, a certain want of transparency, something we must avoid at all cost, the lack of transparency.
R.W.S. Will you say more about the discrepancy which you say existed in Abraham?
J.T. Why did he ask about fifty persons in the city when he was ready to come down to ten? Why did he not explain what he meant? First he asks for fifty, and then he comes down to forty-five, and then he comes down to thirty, and then finally he comes down to ten. All that, I would say, was the want of transparency and simplicity.
Ques. I always thought that he came down from fifty to ten because he did not know how many righteous there were in the city. Would you say in that respect that he failed?
J.T. How do we know he was not thinking of Lot and his wife and his daughters all the time?
Rem. I thought that he did not know and that is why he first thought of fifty.
J.T. But why should he begin with fifty? He should certainly have known if there were fifty righteous persons in the city. Why did he not know?
Rem. So that he really should have been aware whether or not there were fifty living near him who were righteous.
J.T. Why should he not have known? Why did he not have some idea of his neighbours?
J.H.E. Would all this help us that if we are to pray with intelligence we must have facts?
J.T. And that if we speak to the brethren we are to be transparent in what we are saying.
A.R. Abraham knew Lot was in Sodom.
J.T. Yes, and his wife and daughters.
Ques. We need help as to the service of God in the assembly as suggested in this matter of ministering
to the Lord. Is that not a most important feature in our chapter?.
J.T. Well, Abraham certainly ministered to these heavenly visitors. Let us look at the facts of the case. It says, in verse 6, "And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour, and make cakes". That is a good word, he is directing his wife to do something for the visitors, One of whom is God Himself while the two others are angels. That is quite orderly, I would say.
Ques. May I ask a little about this matter of running? It says that he ran and he hastened. He acted with urgency. Why should we come together and sit for a long time at our prayer meetings before we start to pray, and then wait many minutes between prayers? And why should a long time elapse before we start the service at the morning meeting?
J.T. I do not think that a long time should elapse; I think we should be orderly; and if we have come together to pray, why do we not pray? Someone should do it, it is imperative that someone should. It is not orderly to sit together without praying.
Ques. We should not require God to wait. We should not hurry things in an unseemly manner, but I do not think it is orderly to have very long pauses.
J.T. I quite agree with that. We have to consider the object of our coming together, and do the thing. Many a time it has been pointed out that we come together to break bread; that is what they did at the beginning, on the first day of the week they came together to break bread. It was definite, then why not do it? It should be done without undue delay.
R.W.S. In verse 5 it says, "And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant".
Abraham seems to understand that they had come for that very reason, to be served. Is your point that later on he seems to be losing ground, since he starts with fifty; that he is not on as good terms as he is in verse 5?
J.T. Quite so; when he says in verse 5, "I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant", they say, "So do as thou hast said"; so that he is exactly right there in what he suggests to the three persons. Then the next thing is what Abraham does; he proceeds at once to do the thing. "And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah", that is another thing; Sarah was his wife and it was a household matter, you might say, he directs her what to do. So the matter is perfectly orderly.
Ques. Do you include Sarah in the thought of "man" here?
J.T. Although the woman has certain things to do I would think that here it is the idea of man as such. Abraham is hastening: "Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour, and make cakes. And Abraham ran to the herd, and took a calf tender and good, and gave it to the attendant; and he hasted to dress it". Now that is right from his point of view, but I am not sure that Sarah did just what she was told to do. "And they said to him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return to thee at this time of the year, and behold, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent-door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and advanced in age: it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am become old, shall I have pleasure, and my lord old?"
So far as I can see she has not done what she was directed to do; it does not say that she did.
Ques. You mean that at the end of verse 6 she was told to knead three seahs of flour, and it does not say that she did it?
J.T. That is right; therefore there is a want of manhood there in the sense of obedience. If a wife is not ready to do what her husband suggests under such circumstances she is not obedient.
J.H.E. She was, in a sense, eavesdropping, listening behind the tent-door. We shall never get a matter correctly if we get it that way.
J.T. We will proceed now. Jehovah is minded to tell Abraham what He is going to do for his wife, and she was listening at the tent-door and she laughed within herself; there was a lack there, a want of transparency and obedience. In verse 14 God says, "At the time appointed I will return to thee, at this time of the year, and Sarah shall have a son" -- great fact, Isaac is to be born! Then the next thing is verse 17, "And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" And there is a reason for it, "Since Abraham shall indeed become a great and mighty nation; and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him. For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him". The matter is now all clear to us, that we have Abraham's character for years to come and that God knows him and knows that he can be relied upon, so that He is not going to hide things from him; He is going to tell him things.
Ques. May I refer back again to verse 13? Jehovah takes up the matter with Abraham, but Sarah laughed, He did not take up the matter with
Sarah. Is there a principle in that, that the husband is responsible for the wife, in the matter of headship?
J.T. That is so, though I think the matter of laughing is quite in order in its proper setting; as a matter of fact the word 'laugh' comes out in time, it enters into the meaning of Isaac's name. But this thought of Abraham as a man to be relied upon is a matter that we should all take account of: the question of reliability and transparency in this chapter.
R.W.S. What can be said about Abraham conducting the visitors, in verse 16? "Abraham went with them to conduct them". Is that a right thought in view of who they were?.
J.T. It was courtesy, I would say. We are told to be courteous.
R.W.S. He was not staying at home; as they moved on, he moved on, and then it says, "to conduct them". He was moving on towards Sodom.
A.N.W. Is it not commendable, in that had he not done so the disclosures would not have been made? There is what was done as they stationed themselves before Abraham, but as moving on, he conducting them, this disclosure is brought to light. Should we not note that as we move with divine Persons we shall possibly have other disclosures?
J.T. Please tell us more of what you have in mind.
A.N.W. You impressed upon us that previously the visitors had stationed themselves in relation to Abraham as he sat at the tent-door. But now, in verse 16, it says, "And the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to conduct them". Had he stayed where he was and allowed them to go, it would appear that the disclosure of what God was about to do would not have been made to him.
J.T. And it would seem as if Jehovah intended to stay with Abraham and let the men go. It says,
"And Jehovah said; Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" Now it also says that "the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom", as if they were going that way, but evidently Jehovah intended to stay with Abraham. In verse 22 it says "the men turned thence, and went towards Sodom; and Abraham remained yet standing before Jehovah". Undoubtedly Jehovah intended that, because it says, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" Jehovah intended to say something to Abraham.
A.N.W. Are you suggesting that Jehovah separated from the other two?
J.T. Quite so, so that the whole matter is clear now; the other two are angels, they are creatures, and they are going to Sodom to perform judgment. But Jehovah is standing with Abraham, and Abraham recognizes that and talks to Him; and God talks to Abraham.
C.A.M. So that if we are willing and ready to go with divine Persons in their movements, God would let us into the secret of what He has in mind. "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" He said, and in order to bring Abraham into that He remained standing designedly.
J.T. Yes, but not the two men; they went on toward Sodom, clearly. The disclosure therefore is not in connection with the two men, but directly from Jehovah to Abraham.
Ques. Is that the position of the assembly today, that we are with the Lord, and the angels are on the way to judgment? I mean the assembly is not associated in the execution of judgment; it is in the light of the gospel.
J.T. Jehovah is in the judgment, of course, it is His mind, but the angels execute it.
S.C.M. We have instruction in the Revelation as to the judgment that is coming upon the whole
habitable world; we are getting the benefit of this knowledge as we are waiting for the Lord.
J.T. Quite so, I would go with that fully. And it is very impressive too, a most solemn thing is coming, and we can see it here also; because Sodom was to be judged. Abraham sought to interfere to save Sodom, but there were not enough righteous people to save it. That is a solemn thing, that there were not enough righteous people to save it; and ere long there will not be enough righteous people in the world to save it.
R.D.G. With regard to Abraham's lack of transparency in the latter part of the chapter, would you say that he therefore gets into the false position of rebuking God when he says, "Far be it from thee!" as if he were suggesting that it was possible that God could do wrong?
J.T. Yes, just so. I would say that. But what are we to say about this other matter of the number of righteous persons not being sufficient to save the world from judgment? There is no hope of it, the numbers are utterly wanting, there were not fifty righteous, there were not ten righteous in Sodom.
R.W.S. In that connection should we not feel the departure to be with Christ of a number of our brethren lately, some of whom were well known amongst us and serving generally? It says in Isaiah 57, "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from before the evil. He entereth into peace: they rest in their beds, each one that hath walked in his uprightness", Isaiah 57:1,2. The number of brethren that have gone to be with the Lord means that for each one taken there is one less righteous person left down here. Possibly we should be concerned about those who are to be baptized for the dead.
A.N.W. Did the Lord have this lack of righteous ones in His mind when He said, "When the Son of man comes, shall he indeed find faith on the earth"? Luke 18:8.
J.T. Very good, I would say that.
S.W. Despite the work of God in the soul of Abraham, there was fluctuation in him in the presence of God. With ourselves, on the Lord's day morning in the service of God we find that we are not able to be sustained very long in power in the presence of divine Persons.
J.T. Then the idea of fluctuations, of course, becomes serious. But I think we might go forward from this point, recognizing that Abraham has failed in certain points in the chapter but that at the same time the humanity that is there is of God; God has effected it, both in his wife and in himself. Therefore we can happily proceed with what is before us. The humanity that is seen in Abraham and in Sarah is, we might say, passable though not exactly perfect. At the same time there is something to be thankful for if we find these features in each other.
Ques. Is it to Abraham's credit that he says, in verse 27, "Behold now, I have ventured to speak unto the Lord; I, who am dust and ashes"?
J.T. It is a humble spirit; that is the kind of humanity that is there and we have to be thankful for it. Now in chapter 20 there is something to consider that I think will be helpful. It says, "And Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned at Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister". Now that is the thing that I want to bring out; it runs through the whole of chapter 20 that Abraham denied his proper relation with his wife; in type he denied union. Union is a great point in christianity, that Christ is united to the assembly and the assembly is united to Christ. So Abraham
denied this fact in saying that Sarah was his sister, for she was his wife. He denied union. This thought of union is a prime matter, a matter of first importance in christianity.
A.R. Is that what is in mind in Ephesians, "The two shall be one flesh"? Ephesians 5:31.
J.T. That is just what it is. The denominations around us do not go in for that at all, they do not understand it, and christians generally do not understand it. And I think Abraham is guilty of that here in calling his wife his sister.
W.W.M. Do you think it would also suggest that if we take up an easier position we are likely to deny the church position? Going south would suggest an easier position. It says, "Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur". If we take up a lower position, similar to that of denominations and do not maintain the right principles of the assembly, we are actually denying them. So Abraham denied the fact that Sarah was his wife.
J.T. That is what we are dealing with; it is not simply that he went to the south country but that he denied his wife; he called her his sister.
Ques. Would it be going so far as to deny the espousal that Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians?
J.T. Quite so; Abraham did not recognize the idea of union; it was in type denied by Abraham. What Paul spoke of in Corinthians as to espousing them to one Man was manifestly in view of union; that is the idea. He would insist on it, and that is what we should insist upon, not simply that we are brothers and sisters but that we are united to Christ; we are espoused, we are identified with the Lord's spouse.
A.R. Do we express the idea of union at the Supper?
J.T. Quite so; the Lord is aiming at that at the celebration of His supper every Lord's day, that we belong to Him, that we are united to Him in one body.
A.N.W. You could certainly never have the bride if you stop only at kinship. The wife must be a sister, but if she stops short of the wife position it is most serious.
J.T. She was his wife here, she was not his sister properly. I mean to say, the wife was the idea. He wanted to save himself by saying that she was his sister, which was not the truth.
A.N.W. How is it that he is so sound on the matter of his children and his household, and so weak on this vital point?
J.T. I think the point is that it covers the whole of christendom and that the truth is not held as to the assembly, generally. So many believers do not understand the truth of the assembly and union.
Ques. Has not the truth of union to be arrived at before we can reach the great thought of "man"?
J.T. Well, if we refer to Genesis we see in the second chapter that Eve is the complement of Adam, that is to say she is the fulness of Adam: "they shall become one flesh" Genesis 2:24 is the idea there and that is what Abraham denied here.
Ques. In the morning meeting reference is often made to the bride, but seldom is reference made to the wife. Should we make more reference on that occasion to the wife and the wifely relations?
J.T. I would think so. The second of Genesis is so decisive on this point in which we are so defective, as advocating and stating the truth that has place in relation to the Lord's supper; that is to say that the Lord's supper implies that the assembly is His body.
Genesis 21:1 - 14; Genesis 22:1 - 19; Genesis 24:1 - 9,61 - 67
J.T. There is one item to be mentioned which we did not read at the end of chapter 22. There we have the account of Rebecca's ancestry or genealogy and I think this is worthy of mention as entering into the whole subject now before us, because there is so much damage accruing from the disregard of right principles in marriage. In view of marriage people are very prone to ignore the matter of whether God has begun to work in the persons in whom they are interested, so that we have the matter of mixed marriages, and they are most damaging throughout the testimony. I only mention this as emphasizing a principle that governs this whole matter. So now we begin with chapter 21 referring to the birth and the weaning of Isaac.
S.C.M. How accurate divine Persons are in their movements as to time in connection with man! Certain things are mentioned at certain times and at just the appointed time they are carried out. In our time certain things are being worked out also. It is said of the Lord Jesus in Galatians that at the appointed time He came in.
A.N.W. Referring to chapter 18, at which we were looking last time, God says, "I will certainly return to thee at this time of the year", Genesis 18:10. I presume the time in this chapter refers to that promise?
J.T. Just so, so we have it mentioned in verse 2, "the appointed time of which God had spoken". The movements initiated by divine Persons must be accurate from their own point of view, even if it be the movements of the heavenly bodies, or the earth. Everything must be in accord with the divine mind in accuracy, so that we have the sun rising and the sun setting with accuracy, and so forth. So that in
dealing with divine things, or with spiritual things, we have to keep accuracy in mind.
E.A.L. Verse 21 of chapter 17 also brings in the appointed time.
Ques. Is there a link with Galatians 4:4, "but when the fulness of the time was come"?
J.T. Exactly, that has been referred to, the fulness of the time had to come; so that the Lord Jesus was born exactly according to the divine plan. There can be no doubt that the coming of the Lord will be on that same principle: God "has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead", Acts 17:31.
J.H.E. Could we get some help as to Isaac's name meaning 'laughter?' You said something this afternoon about its being the outcome of what took place in both Abraham and Sarah.
J.T. Evidently the idea is joy in the birth of Christ as we get it in Luke 2:10, "I announce to you glad tidings of great joy ... for today a Saviour has been born to you in David's city, who is Christ the Lord". The angel spoke of that. Now this question of the birth and the weaning of Isaac is something that we perhaps do not know much about, especially the weaning. The brethren will remember that in hymn 211 in our book (1932 edition) the allusion is to Isaac, the weaning of Isaac.
E.E.H. "Abraham exulted in that he should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced", John 8:56. Would that refer to this?
A.N.W. Do you refer to the words:
J.T. Yes; Hagar's son would speak of the man born after the flesh, which many of us prefer to him that is born after the Spirit.
A.R. Have you in your mind that Abraham says, in Genesis 17:18, "Oh that Ishmael might live before thee"? Genesis 17:18
J.T. That is the man born after the flesh, that is the same man over again only in another character.
T.E.H. Would you say that it took the help of Sarah to bring Abraham to that conclusion so that he acted in casting out the maid servant? It was on the occasion of Isaac being weaned that this animosity on the part of Ishmael came to light. It evidently did not come to light before that.
D.P. The weaning brings Isaac into prominence.
J.T. Quite so. The idea of weaning is that we can do without nature, we can do without the natural mother.
J.H.E. Would Paul answer to this in Romans 7, in displacing the man after the flesh and looking to the true Isaac? He came to a realization of what man after the flesh meant, and how he must be disposed of.
J.T. Just so, only circumcision was needed for that, not weaning.
C.A.M. Would you say that Sarah had made progress in her soul? She says, "God has made me laugh: all that hear will laugh with me". Had she not really come to the divine thought in her son?
J.T. She had laughed prematurely at first, now she laughs intelligently.
F.H.L. If we look at Abraham and Sarah as the full thought of manhood, do they suggest the subjective side in love that would take account of the mockery of the man after the flesh and set it aside to make room for Isaac?
J.T. Just so. The point is the weaning. Circumcision is obviously according to law, but the weaning
is so important, that is to say when, spiritually, we can do without the natural support of the mother.
S.W. Would you say it is at that time that we can be dedicated to service? I had in mind Samuel in the day when he was weaned Hannah took him up to the temple and left him there.
J.T. That is to say she gave him up to the service, just so. And she was concerned that he grew accordingly; she made a little coat for him every year, always keeping in mind his growth. That is a subjective idea.
Ques. It is said of the Lord in Luke's gospel that He advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men. Is that the idea?
J.T. Quite so, He advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men. Do not let us forget that side either.
Ques. Does circumcision precede weaning?
J.T. It does, the cutting off of the natural.
Rem. In verse 4 it is said that Abraham circumcised his son Isaac; and then in verse 8 that he was weaned.
J.T. "The child grew, and was weaned". There had to be growth before the weaning but not before the circumcision.
A.N.W. Does that mean that weaning is a greater test? The matter of circumcision is complete; but when it comes to weaning, while Abraham makes a great feast for Isaac he is not ready to have Ishmael displaced. But the two cannot remain together, is that the point?
J.T. "Cast out this handmaid and her son", is where the hesitancy comes.
C.F.E. Abraham had to learn that the first order of man had to go, as it says in verse 11, "And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son".
T.E.H. What is the difference between the expression that Mr. Darby uses in his hymn, "Art thou weaned from Egypt's pleasures?" (Hymn 76) and this matter of being through with the man according to flesh?
J.T. Well, Egypt's pleasures are more simple, they are worldly things; but the weaning here is from what is proper in itself; that is, the mother's food is proper in itself. But it is not proper when the time of weaning has come.
J.H.E. Paul says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child", 1 Corinthians 13:11 but then he looks for full-grown manhood.
Ques. Are you suggesting that circumcision is now made good in us?
J.T. Oh, I think so; it is first but weaning is second, in that sense. It is not simply a legal thing; the person is equal to it; the person has grown to it. It is a question of growth, not of legal requirement.
R.W.S. David says in Psalm 131, which is in the songs of degrees: "Surely I have restrained and composed my soul, like a weaned child with its mother: my soul within me is as a weaned child", Psalm 131:2.
J.T. Like a weaned child, he was true to the thing. He was true to what Abraham set out at first. Weaning is a subjective thing; circumcision is not that, it is a legal thing, a requirement.
R.W.S. Would composing the soul mean that he was restful in the new condition?
R.W.S. The last verse might throw further light on the matter. It reads: "Let Israel hope in Jehovah, from henceforth and for evermore", Psalm 131:3.
J.T. It is a fixed matter with him, as a true and experienced person. But returning to our passage, the great question is the casting out of Hagar, and her son. Ishmael mocked, it was persecution, he was a mocker.
A.N.W. Are we helped by that principle today? Do we have to learn the mocking character of the maidservant and her son to help us reach the point of liberty?
J.T. Quite so, the casting out; Abraham was hesitant about that but Sarah was not, and God orders that it should be so. There must be the casting out; it is a violent thing, it is really violence.
A.R. So that the two mothers represent two systems, and the two sons the products of those systems, according to Galatians.
J.T. Just so; so that it says in verse 11, "And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad and because of thy handmaid: in all that Sarah hath said to thee hearken to her voice, for in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee. But also the son of the handmaid will I make a nation, because he is thy seed" -- that shows how extensive, how liberal God was in these matters: "because he is thy seed", that is, God respects the father. And so it says, "And Abraham rose up early in the morning". Now notice that, he "rose up early in the morning"; he was obedient, which is another thing we have already noticed in Abraham -- "and took bread, and a flask of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder -- and the child, and sent her away". There is a complete break in sending her away.
Ques. Would you say a word as to Sarah taking a lead in the matter of casting out Ishmael?
J.T. Well, it is a principle in the New Testament, it is Scripture, really. The word of Sarah becomes Scripture in that sense.
Rem. Abraham is told to hearken to her voice.
G.H. In connection with the violence involved in casting out Hagar and her son, it says that the kingdom of heaven is taken by violence. Is that the idea?
J.T. Well, just so, but I think you would have to examine the force of the word 'violence', "the violent take it by force", Matthew 11:12. The kingdom of heaven is a thing we must have, and you enforce it. It is only a question of the use of the word.
R.W.S. Is weaning a principle involved in manhood according to God? Would the weaning and the casting out and the acceptance of the matter enter into our subject of manhood according to God?
J.T. Oh, I think so, and that Sarah insisted on it and God supported her. It is something that may happen in the assembly, in our care meetings, that a matter must be insisted upon.
T.E.H. It says that when Hannah brought the boy up to Jehovah she brought three bullocks with her and one ephah of flour and a flask of wine. Would that be the appreciation of manhood in her soul as she came up to give the child to the Lord?
J.T. Just so; wine is applied to what is for God Himself; it is stimulation, a question of holy stimulation.
Ques. Does circumcision coming first here suggest the presence of the Spirit, the power to reach the subjective results as seen in weaning?
J.T. The Spirit enables you to do what is right and supports you in it against nature. So the casting out is clearly seen here as an enforcement.
W.W.M. The apostle says to the Hebrews, "For every one that partakes of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe; but solid food belongs to full-grown men, who, on account of habit, have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil" Hebrews 5:13,14.
J.T. That is an allusion to what we are aiming at here, it is just that.
A.N.W. So that this principle of the flesh will not just drop off or drop out; it takes on a mocking
attitude, and it has to be cast out; there is need of forcefulness.
J.T. Quite so, because there is persecution in a mocking attitude. The Lord Jesus himself speaks of being persecuted; Saul of Tarsus persecuted Him. We now should go on to chapter 22 to consider the offering up of Isaac: "And it came to pass after these things, that God tried Abraham, and said to him, Abraham! and he said, Here am I. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and there offer him up for a burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he clave the wood for the burnt-offering, and rose up and went to the place that God had told him of" (verses 1 - 3). Now we have not only come to the weaning, but Abraham himself is tested to the limit, in offering up his son. It is the test of obedience to the full limit of it that God would have in His people, that we are not to admit anything else but the full limit of testing, and go through with it. That is the next thing before us now in our lesson in the thought of humanity, what man is according to God.
A.N.W. And the manhood, the fibre of the man, is seen again in the rising early under these conditions. "Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass", There must have been an extraordinary fibre of manhood there.
J.T. So that we might as well read a little further, from verse 4 and down, to bring out the perfection of Abraham's obedience: "On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. And Abraham said to his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and the knife, and they went both of them together. And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father! And he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the sheep for a burnt-offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself with the sheep for a burnt-offering. And they went both of them together. And they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built the altar there, and piled the wood; and he bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slaughter his son. And the Angel of Jehovah called to him from the heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here am I. And he said, Stretch not out thy hand against the lad, neither do anything to him; for now I know that thou fearest God, and hast not withheld thy son".
Now let us dwell upon that, all of us, the extreme test of obedience, the knife actually raised up to slaughter his son, the extreme test of obedience in Abraham. We are dealing with manhood particularly now, manhood in Abraham.
G.H. Is that seen so beautifully in the Lord Jesus Himself, becoming obedient even unto death?
J.T. Quite so, He became obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross.
A.N.W. Does not the repeated reference to wood in this chapter indicate manhood, really? It says he "piled the wood", and "laid him on the altar upon the wood".
J.T. In fact there is a wood sacrifice in the types; it is really humanity of an acceptable kind.
S.C.M. Does that agree with the shittim wood of which the ark was made?
J.T. Quite so, the supreme thought of wood is seen in the ark; it is the supreme thought of wood as seen in Christ; the shittim wood suggests the humanity that was seen in Christ.
T.N.W. Earlier it says that Abraham "laid" the wood "on Isaac his son".
J.T. So that the idea of humanity in Abraham is seen in the wood; it is burnable and could be used for the purpose in question.
F.H.L. We had altars in the previous chapters, but is not this the first time the wood is mentioned so far as Abraham is concerned?
W.W.M. Would we have the same idea as to the wood that Moses took when they came to the bitter waters? He cast the wood into the waters and they became sweet. That would refer to the humanity of Christ, would it not?
A.R. Did God intend in this test that Abraham should really reflect Himself?
J.T. He did, so that the place was called Jehovah-jireh. That leads us to verse 14, at the end of our passage: "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh" -- meaning, The Lord will provide -- "as it is said at the present day, On the mount of Jehovah will be provided". That is, God comes in now when we are in an approved state of obedience; God comes in for us. That is the thing we may count on, that God will come in for us when we go the full length of obedience.
F.H.L. Not only is his obedience tested, but his love, is it not?
J.T. Quite so, his love for his son and his obedience unto God.
A.N.W. Is that not the first mention of love in the Bible, suggesting God in His love for His Son?
It says, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac".
J.T. So that now we come to the prime thought of the whole passage, beginning with verse 15: "And the Angel of Jehovah called to Abraham from the heavens a second time, and said, By myself I swear, saith Jehovah, that, because thou hast done this, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, I will richly bless thee, and greatly multiply thy seed, as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is on the sea-shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because thou hast hearkened to my voice. And Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba. And Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba". Now, it is not said that Isaac comes down from the mount; typically he goes up to heaven. That is the idea. Isaac does not go down at all; he is offered up to God, and you might say he goes up to heaven. It says, "Abraham returned to his young men", it does not say Isaac is there; "and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba. And Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba". Well, there is no mention of Isaac, what has become of him? We have to understand that we must make way for heaven and go there, be ready for it.
A.N.W. Then do you place Rebecca's genealogy which follows in the next few verses, in that relation with Isaac?
J.T. Yes; that would offset the pernicious effect of mixed marriages which come in amongst us and you cannot be too strong in speaking about it; the terrible effect of mixed marriages. This passage from verse 20 to the end of the chapter is to bring out the genealogy of Rebecca, that she is a true woman to marry Isaac; she is true woman suitable for marriage according to God.
R.W.S. It is most important with all the sorrow we have had and still have because of it.
Ques. There is a remarkable passage in Nehemiah 13:23 - 25: "In those days also I saw Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab. And their children spoke half in the language of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people. And I contended with them, and cursed them". Does that show how strong we have to be in this matter?
J.T. Quite so, those were mixed marriages, that is the thought, they are abominable. There must be the seed of God; if a woman is to be married she must be a sister according to God. "To take round a sister as wife", 1 Corinthians 9:5 it says, otherwise she is not fit for it, and there are to be suited qualifications in the brother, too.
D.P. Are all the promises which God had given to Abraham now seen in a risen, exalted and glorified Isaac?
A.N.W. Is that not the idea of the laughter? God has secured joy that way.
Ques. Is that why, in this passage, it is said that Abraham's seed will be as the sand of the sea and also as the stars of the heavens?
J.T. Quite so; the idea that the seed was to be heavenly is brought in.
A.R. So that in the partnership of marriage both should be heavenly. It is an awful thing to think of persons marrying if one's outlook is heavenward and the other's is not.
J.T. Awful to think of it! How can anyone take the risk of that?
D.P. So there should be equality in the relationship before the marriage takes place.
J.T. Equality lies in the word sister, "to take round a sister as wife". 1 Corinthians 9:5.
D.Macd. Do we not see a beautiful example of that in Exodus 2, "And a man of the house of Levi went and took a daughter of Levi"? Exodus 2:1.
J.T. Yes, the right genealogy, that is the idea.
E.T.M. In the Song of Solomon it says, "Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse", Song of Songs 4:9.
J.T. Just so; he recognizes her as his sister first before she is his spouse.
W.W.M. So that in Galatians where this is referred to it says, "But to Abraham were the promises addressed, and to his seed: he does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ", Galatians 3:16. There was no mixture.
F.S.C. What can be said about the oath in regard to the promise in Hebrews 6? God swore by Himself, it says, because He could not swear by a greater. Why did God have to swear by an oath?
J.T. The whole thing is made sure through the oath, that is what is meant; it is a question of priesthood and of our assurance.
A.R. Is your point in this chapter that in figure Isaac goes up to heaven and stays there, and Rebecca comes to light under these circumstances?
J.T. So that we have already spoken of the stars as alluding to our heavenly portion, the seed of Abraham being viewed as stars.
Ques. If asked what our link with heaven is, should we not say that it is the Spirit, through the Spirit? Of course, we must be righteous in what we say.
C.A.M. Would that not be inferred in the statement that Abraham dwelt in Beer-sheba, which would correspond with Isaac's not coming back? That would seem to suggest the Spirit.
J.T. We must bring in the Spirit to make things possible and certain subjectively, not objectively. For what is subjective we must have the Spirit.
A.R. What had you in mind about chapter 24?
J.T. It brings out the need of a suitable bride for Isaac. The point is that the link must be in the family, there must be a family link between the two. Isaac is not to marry a person who is not of the family, of his own genealogy, so that the early verses of chapter 24 record that. And then beginning from verse 61 we have the facts of Rebecca's marriage to Isaac and the results, that he was comforted after the death of his mother.
A.R. If one is looking for a wife, should he look for her according to the mind of God?
J.T. Quite so; but it is a question of the family link, that the family link must be spiritual.
S.C.M. In Genesis 2 it says, "I will make him a helpmate, his like"; Genesis 2:18 and the footnote says, 'counterpart'. She must be like himself.
J.T. Yes; counterpart is the word, she is of himself. Myself over again, as someone has said. The man says of the woman, in principle, It is myself over again. So that Christ would say that of the assembly, it is Himself in that sense, it is like Himself. "The fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:23.
A.R. You have said that you must have kinship before you can rightly have marriage; so that for the assembly the idea of brethren must come first. After that you get the idea of the assembly.
J.T. That is the point here, so that the first nine verses of the chapter should be read again that we may all have it before us: "And Abraham was old, and advanced in age; and Jehovah had blessed Abraham in all things. And Abraham said to his servant, the eldest of his house, who ruled over all that he had, Put thy hand, I pray thee, under my thigh, and I will make thee swear by Jehovah, the God of the heavens and the God of the earth, that thou take not a wife for my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am dwelling; but thou shalt go to my land and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son Isaac. And the servant said to him, Perhaps the woman will not be willing to follow me to this land: must I, then, bring thy son again in any case to the land from which thou hast removed? And Abraham said to him, Beware that thou bring not my son thither again. Jehovah the God of the heavens, who took me out of my father's house, and out of the land of my nativity, and who has spoken to me, and who has sworn to me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land -- he will send his angel before thee, that thou mayest take a wife for my son thence. And if the woman be not willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be quit of this my oath: only, bring not my son thither again. And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and swore unto him concerning that matter".
It is by an oath that the matter is confirmed, it must be by oath. And then we can proceed from verse 61 for the completion of the whole matter: "And Rebecca arose, and her maids, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man. And the servant took Rebecca, and went away. And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country. And Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields towards the beginning of evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming. And Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac, and she sprang off the camel. And she had said to the servant, Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master! Then she took the veil, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac led her into his mother Sarah's tent; and he took Rebecca, and she became his wife, and he loved her. And Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother".
R.W.S. There are no discrepancies now with Abraham, either in this matter of supreme obedience or in his word to his servant not to take his son back into Syria again if he cannot find a wife. It seems to be a perfect conclusion now in Abraham and in Isaac and in Rebecca. Is that how we should arrive at this feature of manhood where discrepancies vanish and what is perfect is seen?
J.T. I think it is almost, as the word in Hebrews 12 says, "the spirits of just men made perfect", Hebrews 12:23. Abraham, we might say, is made perfect in chapter 24; it is in measure like perfect manhood.
R.H.S. Does the thought of manhood in any sense supersede that of sonship? Is manhood a greater thought than sonship? We have been considering Isaac in relation to sonship; but we find in Revelation that God will tabernacle with men.
J.T. It is difficult to say; God is leading many sons to glory. These are men, it is a masculine idea. So that there are two things to be noted in Hebrew 2: first the masculine side in that God is leading many sons to glory, which is what God is doing; but then in verse 12 we have the assembly: "In the midst of the assembly" the Lord says to His Father, "will I sing thy praises"; Hebrews 2:12 that is the feminine idea. The Lord Jesus has the assembly now in which to sing the praises of God. Those are the two ideas; the first is the masculine in that sons are being led to glory, and the second is the feminine, in the assembly in which He praises the Father.
A.N.W. So that the system in unity is feminine; when it is a matter of sons it is masculine.
Ques. There is nothing greater than the thought of "Let us make man", Genesis 1:26 as we had it in our first reading, is there?
J.T. I would say that; and that is inclusive of women, it included Eve.
T.E.H. Speaking of greatness, there is a remarkable statement in chapter 26 which says, "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold; and Jehovah blessed him. And the man became great, and he became continually greater, until he was very great" Genesis 26:12,13. That helps us as to the greatness of Isaac.
J.T. Just so, as it were to fill out the thought of Abraham; because while Isaac himself failed eventually, he filled out the full thought of Abraham at first.
Ques. How is Isaac to be regarded as master? Throughout the chapter generally the servant speaks of Abraham as master.
J.T. Isaac supersedes Abraham, he is the master now; there is the idea of succession, for Abraham dies, the next chapter tells us of his death, while Isaac becomes greater and greater.
A.N.W. May I suggest that it might be indicated in the Spirit and the bride saying, Come. The Servant, typifying the Spirit, is saying it now to His master, one may say reverently. Is that not the consummation of the whole matter, "the Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:17 to that Man?
A.R. Rebecca asks "Who is the man?"
J.T. The answer is, "That is my master!" Abraham's servant is really a type of the Spirit, and He is the One that answers.
F.H.L. If the full thought of manhood is seen in Christ and the assembly, then, in that sense, would it be greater than the thought of sons?
J.T. Well, Christ and the assembly, just so. But the assembly is never viewed as belonging to Deity, that should be guarded.
A.R. So the chapter really finishes with the idea of union, which we had this afternoon. "And she became his wife, and he loved her".
A.N.W. Here we have the second mention of love in the Bible I believe. The one who was loved now loves his wife.
J.T. Yes; and then Sarah has mention eventually in the narrative; it says, "Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother", that is to say that although Rebecca comes into her tent, yet Sarah is a type of Israel and she will come into her place in the millennium.
G.H. That expression, "Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?" brings before us in a wonderful way the greatness of Christ.
J.T. He is recognizing the Spirit really, he is coming and going to the well of Lahai-roi. "And Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac, and she sprang off the camel. And she had said to the servant, Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master!" Now that is the Spirit of God really, in type; the Spirit of God comes in there to link up Rebecca with Isaac. But then there is another thing to think of, and that is the mother; and the millennium must make way for Israel in some sense; and the mother here I believe is Israel.
S.W. Is there significance in the place from which Isaac is coming at this point?
J.T. It is the principle of coming and going. It is to recognize the Spirit, I think. "And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country". There is a note to that verse, that he 'came from coming to'. It is the Lord Jesus, in type, recognizing the Spirit as seen in the well,
coming from and going to it. I hope the brethren will not think that I am speaking too strongly about these things, but I think that we ought to recognize the Spirit wherever we can, because it is a great point at the moment that we should see the Spirit of God in everything, even in type.
A.N.W. Does Rebecca show her chaste virginity when she veils herself? Paul speaks of presenting the saints as "a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.
J.T. Just so, suitability too, and lowliness are seen in her act.
Genesis 25:19 - 21; Genesis 26:12 - 35; Genesis 27:6 - 41
J.T. No doubt we shall be observant of the fact that in our subject of Man we are dealing with a very extensive matter in the sense of the persons and the scriptures involved in it. We feel that the subject is of main importance because man was recently created; that is, comparatively recently; but that God reserved this creation with man in view. We shall hope to cover the subject in some sense, because it is so important that we should understand what God has in mind to work out in man; and particularly that the Lord Jesus Himself became Man. Nothing should be more affecting than that fact, that He became, not an angel, but Man. And so in the group of scriptures read we should not exclude certain persons that represent less attractive features of manhood. Therefore Ishmael ought to be mentioned. And then we have the sisters as well, Rebecca and others, but especially Rebecca. Ishmael, we might say, affords a variety. He is a son of Abraham, but not the promised seed; still he is the son of Abraham and God takes account of him accordingly, and we have to take account of him too as presenting certain features of manhood. Isaac's history does not cover so much ground as Abraham's or Jacob's, but we are mainly occupied now with him.
R.W.S. Of Ishmael it says in verse 12, "Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's bondwoman, bore to Abraham", Genesis 25:12. Is that over against Isaac being called Abraham's son in verse 19? There it says, "Abraham begot Isaac".
J.T. And the word 'called' has to be remembered, "In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee"; Genesis 21:12. I mean to say Isaac is the divine thought, he was the promised seed; Ishmael was a mere contrivance by
Sarah. Still, he was Abraham's seed too, and God said He would bless him because he was his seed; but "in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee", Genesis 21:12 that was the idea.
A.N.W. In God's mind Isaac was his 'only' son: "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest", Genesis 22:2.
J.T. So that God confines Himself to the promise, and why should not God do that? Any father ought to be free to do it, but certainly God. And so He regards Isaac as the only son of Abraham.
S.C.M. And so it is said of the Lord Jesus, "My beloved Son".
J.T. Yes, quite so, "in whom I have found my delight", Matthew 3:17. Matthew 17:5 it is only the Lord Jesus that could be so regarded, but Isaac is clearly a beautiful type of the Lord Jesus and Rebecca is a type of the assembly. That is another thing that has to be noted, hence so much is made of her.
A.R. Do these verses go back to Genesis 1 and 2 where it says, "Let us make man", Genesis 1:26 which includes the woman?
J.T. That is right, "and let them have dominion". "Them" is plural, of course, so that the man and the woman are regarded as having the same derivation. I mean Eve is taken from Adam, she is out of him.
A.R. Whereas Rebecca was the father's thought for Isaac; it was the suggestion of Abraham that she be procured for Isaac, was it not?
J.T. Quite so; it was a divine matter really that Christ and the assembly should appear in just this beautiful way, Isaac being a type of Christ and Rebecca a type of the assembly.
J.H.E. It says, "And Isaac entreated Jehovah for his wife, because she was barren". Is that, in some sense, going on now, the Lord being on high having the assembly in view for fruitfulness?
A.B.P. Does Ishmael serve as a sort of background to bring out by way of contrast certain features of Isaac? He is spoken of as a wild ass of a man and his hand against every man.
J.T. Quite so. That is a remarkable thing, that he is called a wild ass of a man, so that he is entirely different in that sense from Isaac.
Rem. In chapter 26:13 it says of Isaac, "And the man became great".
J.T. He became exceedingly great, so that he would fill out what Abraham represented in that sense.
G.V.D. It says in verse 5 of our chapter: "And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac", Genesis 25:5. Would that link on with the Father loving the Son and giving all things into His hand?
J.T. It would. Isaac was, as it were, the only son although Ishmael was recognised as Abraham's seed. But really, Isaac is the only son, he is the heir, he receives all, the first-born's portion.
C.A.M. While Rebecca was the suited wife for Isaac, yet it is remarkable that she was barren and it was necessary to entreat Jehovah for her.
J.T. But that only gave occasion for God's power to come in, God overcame that by His power.
C.A.M. Do we see that in the working out of things in the assembly now?
J.T. It gave God the opportunity to show His power, to make His power known, and His power is being seen currently. The assembly is being brought to light; it is a question of the power of God.
J.H.E. Does it not help to see Isaac here as the heavenly man? We noticed in our last reading that no mention is made of his coming down from the mountain.
J.T. We have to see Abraham in the same light because his generations are not given, whereas Isaac's are. Abraham's generations are not given; therefore he is a distinguished man, hence a heavenly man. But Isaac also is heavenly, only more in detail than Abraham. Abraham's generations are not given which is perhaps something which some of us have not observed.
C.A.M. Is that to emphasize the father idea in Abraham?
J.T. Just so, it is the idea of the father. The New Testament has to be taken into account in all these matters; you cannot get the full thought without the New Testament. So that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must come into our considerations.
C.A.M. It is a very striking thing; I think it throws light on why his generations are not given.
J.T. Therefore it is "things new and old" Matthew 13:52; not old and new, but new and old. The New Testament is first in that sense.
E.A.L. Stephen begins his address in Acts 7 with Abraham.
A.T.D. Verse 19 refers to Isaac's generations and says, "Abraham begot Isaac". Will you say something about that, please?
J.T. You have to regard the language of Scripture and it does not speak of Abraham's generations, but it does speak of Isaac's and even of Ishmael's. So that we have to look for Abraham somewhere else, as the heavenly man, I would say. You have to learn to look for persons who seem to be omitted; but we shall find out that they are not omitted.
A.N.W. That must be so for his name means 'father of a multitude'.
J.T. Yes; 'high father' first, and then 'father of a multitude'.
A.B.P. Is there some connection between what has been said about Abraham's generations and the word in Ephesians 3:21: "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages"?
J.T. Just so, that has its place, it is "unto all generations of the age of ages".
A.R. Do you think the fact that no reference is made to the generations of Abraham is a question of our understanding that God has no origin, He is from eternity to eternity?
J.T. Well, John tells us that with respect to the Lord: "In the beginning was the Word", John 1:1. He was, He is eternal. "And the Word was with God, and the Word was God". So that you can connect those thoughts with the Father and with the Son, but it is stated especially of the Son: "In the beginning was the Word", and then, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", John 1:14.
R.W.S. Is there any link in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the thought of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?
J.T. I think so. You would think so yourself?
R.W.S. Well, I would. We shall come to that later I suppose as to Jacob. I think I can see it in Abraham and Isaac, and I suppose we shall have to wait until we come to Jacob to see it there.
J.T. And so in Revelation 4:8: "Holy, holy, holy" -- three holies, suggesting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I would say.
S.C.M. In Matthew 1 Abraham is linked on with the generation of Jesus Christ: "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham", Matthew 1:1
J.T. The question therefore arises as to why should David be mentioned before Abraham. But it is only to bring out the thought of kingship, to give it its full place in David; full room has to be
made for kingship; the brethren will follow that. We must make room for royalty.
J.H.E. When the Jews came back from the captivity there were those who sought to serve, but their names could not be found in the genealogical register; they were not fit. It is a good thing to trace our genealogy.
J.T. God gives it to us and we should trace it and value it too, because we are derived from Christ.
R.W.S. Had you something more in your mind about the barrenness here, and Isaac entreating Jehovah for his wife because she was barren? The assembly was alluded to in this connection, as to God's power coming in in relation to the assembly.
J.T. Well, it was to bring out the power of God; the power of God overcomes the barrenness. That is all I would say about it. But I would like to hear what you have to say.
R.W.S. I thought there was a remark made applying it to the assembly today, Rebecca being a type of the assembly, but I cannot follow it myself. I thought you had something more in your mind.
J.T. I have nothing on my mind as to begetting, as to children being derived from Isaac and Rebecca, if that is what is in mind. I have nothing in my mind about that; I should not like to speak of that in connection with the assembly.
A.N.W. Isaac entreating for his wife has been compared with the Lord's thoughts about the assembly.
J.T. But I would not have the thought that it relates to any progeny that would come from Rebecca; I would not have that in mind.
C.A.M. Although Rebecca was kindred to Isaac she was still in this distant country and needing to be brought to him. Is there not a sort of process that goes on in connection with the formation of the assembly?
J.H.E. Do we not get in the early days that "the Lord added ... daily"? Acts 2:47. Would that not be the power to add?
J.T. Yes, but that is not derivation from parents, unless we speak of God as a Parent; but it does not allow the thought of Rebecca as a mother. There is nothing of that kind. It is a question of "the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved" Acts 2:47, it is those that were to be saved, that is all. It is not that they were to be born. In John 3, of course, we have: "Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", John 3:3. But that is not the idea in Acts 2.
J.H.E. John 1 says, "To them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God", John 1:12,13.
J.T. "But of God", not of any mother, it is just God.
E.A.L. When we think of the difference in these twins that were born to Rebecca it is just sovereignty on the part of God.
J.T. Oh, quite so, it is not to introduce members of the assembly. I do not understand that. It is a question of God if we speak of those of the assembly, "born of God".
J.T.Jr. We know something about it as understanding something of the power of God; it is known experimentally.
S.C.M. In Hebrews 2 it says, "And again, Behold, I and the children which God has given me", Hebrews 2:13. Is that not some suggestion of the corn of wheat falling into the ground and dying and bringing forth fruit?
J.T. That is quoted from Isaiah, "the children which God has given me".
A.N.W. How far would Genesis 1 go? It says, "God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply", Genesis 1:28. How far would that go?
J.T. Well, that is the race, just the generation of the human race; they were the parents of the race, that is all.
R.D.G. Did Isaac outshine his father Abraham in that he took the matter of the barrenness to God? Abraham did not do that apparently.
J.T. Quite right; Isaac did it and God answered it. But I would connect the first of Genesis with the human race; Adam and Eve were the parents of it. It is no question of the assembly there, it is just the human race.
Rem. Isaac, in taking the matter to God, acted much more sympathetically and comelily than Elkanah, the husband of Hannah, who seems to have had no exercise about the matter at all.
J.T. Well, quite so; but we cannot make things fit exactly, they are recorded as they happened; the Spirit of God is sovereign in it all; the whole matter is inspired. I would be afraid of not making enough of the actual facts that are mentioned in relation to creation and to the human race. We must go by the facts and be spiritually discerning in what we say.
Rem. The hymn says, "O God, the thought was Thine, Thine only could it be" (Hymn 92).
F.W. Does it emphasize the development of the divine operations, and that these go on at the same time that the natural generations go on, and that God is intervening on His own side to bring in His own thoughts?
J.T. Quite so, and let us seek to follow them and seek to be spiritual, comparing spiritual with spiritual and not going too far either way but being careful in what we are saying and doing. To look at Isaac and Rebecca as parents of members of the
assembly I would not like at all; I do not think that is intended.
R.W.S. I am glad it is being enlarged upon, I see what you mean; it is the power of God in the circumstances indicated here.
J.T. Quite so, it is the power of God; it is not the father and the mother, it is just God.
J.T.Jr. So the Lord said to the Sadducees, "Ye err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God", Matthew 22:29. They were bringing the family relations into the thought of resurrection. It is a question therefore of the power of God.
A.N.W. Isaac's prayer is evidently in accord with the divine mind, for it says Jehovah was entreated of him. He yielded to his entreaty.
J.T. And that is all there is to it, it is just a fact.
C.A.M. The mighty workings and the power of God which you have been stressing involve the fact that the assembly belongs to a world of things beyond the natural; beyond death in resurrection.
J.T. Well, these are all facts that are borne out by Scripture. I would take them just as they are and seek to see that there is what is spiritual, but that there is also the natural, creative side that enters into all this matter. Adam was created, but Eve was taken out of Adam, but not by birth, it is the power of God; it is a miracle, and there is no repetition of that.
Ques. In Revelation 19 it says, "The marriage of the Lamb is come", Revelation 19:7. Is there any fruit or issue from that marriage?
J.T. Not at all, I do not think that is admissible at all.
Ques. Is the spiritual side seen in Ephesians 1 where it speaks of the power of God "which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead" Ephesians 1:20; and then later it says, "and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all"? Ephesians 1:22,23.
J.T. Well, there is no idea of a mother there. It is a question of God; the resurrection is the power of God, and believers have to come into that experimentally, to be raised from the dead.
A.R. Does verse 12 of chapter 26 suggest the same idea of the power of God in the creation? It says, "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold; and Jehovah blessed him". It is the power of God in creation.
J.T. Quite so, it is just the fact of the matter.
D.P. Are Isaac and Rebecca then the prominent thought, and to be viewed, as types, apart from the ordinary circumstances of this chapter?
J.T. Surely, viewed separately.
D.P. As Christ and the assembly?
J.T. But not Christ and the assembly as begetting children, nothing of that kind. I feel that there is some confusion in applying this idea of parents begetting children when it is just the natural thought. We have to work out the spiritual and see whether we are accurate in what we are saying.
Rem. There are no children spoken of in the outline in chapter 24.
J.T. Because in chapter 24 it is really a question of the type, what Isaac and Rebecca mean, that is all; it suggests Christ and the assembly.
A.N.W. So that the type would seem to end when you view the feminine side as the complement of the man.
C.A.M. Does not the Lord Jesus make that very clear in connection with the resurrection world and all beyond? What we know in this way of generation is all ended. "Jesus said to them, The sons of this world marry and are given in marriage, but they who are counted worthy to have part in that world, and the resurrection from among the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection", Luke 20:34 - 36.
J.T. I was thinking of that; it is a question of being as the angels, "sons of God, being sons of the resurrection". There is no idea at all of fruit-bearing. It is a question of being sons of the resurrection.
R.W.S. This all seems very important lest we carry the types too far and become fanciful and confused.
J.T. Well, I think so; I am concerned that we go by the Scriptures accurately, get the facts by Scripture.
F.N.W. Is it not important that what we may learn from the Old Testament is regulated by what we have in the New, particularly by what the Lord has given us through the apostle Paul?
J.T. Quite so, it is New and Old, that is the principle; the New Testament begins everything. You must learn everything on those lines from the New Testament. Not that the Old Testament does not yield, it does; but we begin with the New.
J.T.Jr. When allusion is made to our birth in Galatians, Isaac is in mind; it is like the birth of Isaac; not a material thought, but according to promise. The pattern is brought in there, in Isaac.
J.T. We should proceed now to chapter 26. We have touched on chapter 25 and now we want to see how Isaac sowed and reaped in the land: "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold"; that is just an ordinary event, an occurrence. Isaac was a farmer and he was getting a hundredfold on the principle of farming.
A.N.W. And he became great; "And the man became great, and he became continually greater, until he was very great". He was "very great".
J.H.E. Is not the secret in that Jehovah blessed him? That is the principle, is it not?
J.T. Yes; but they are not other than ordinary facts that Isaac became great and was prosperous in what he was doing, just as other people have been prospered. And then it goes on to say, "And Isaac departed thence, and pitched his camp in the valley of Gerar, and dwelt there". I understand the word Gerar refers to a circle. "And Isaac dug again the wells of water that they had dug in the days of Abraham his father"; so that the work of Abraham is carried through, but evidently somewhat checked by the power of the Philistines, which God allowed. And so we go right through to verse 21, "And they dug another well, and they strove for that also; and he called the name of it Sitnah", meaning 'opposition', there was opposition. "And he removed thence and dug another well; and they did not strive for that. And he called the name of it Rehoboth", which means 'broadways', that is, room is being made for Isaac under God. This is ordinary, not miraculous, it is just God acting for Isaac.
F.N.W. Does Isaac here typify the believer or Christ?
J.T. Well, it is something that we have to look into to see how he gained and what happened to him in a godly way, because evidently God was blessing him on the line of godliness. He was the son of Abraham.
J.T.Jr. He would have to contend with the features of the flesh in man; and so we see, I suppose, how he deals with it, moving on to a place where there is room, where the thing is not overwhelming him any more.
J.T. Just so; and so he called the name of the place, "Rehoboth", and said, "For now Jehovah has made room for us". That is just an ordinary event and shows that God is blessing him.
A.B.P. Is the value of it that he brings God into it?
J.T. Yes; he brings God into it; it is a godly matter; the man is godly.
A.B.P. We are told that God sends the rain upon the just and the unjust alike.
J.T. Just so; just as anyone of us might be blessed, even today; only we would not be content with ordinary physical blessing; we want to be spiritual. And so verse 23 says, "And he went up thence to Beer-sheba. And Jehovah appeared to him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake". These are all ordinary matters, but God is in them. And then further, "And he built an altar there, and called upon the name of Jehovah. And he pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well. And Abimelech, and Ahuzzath his friend, and Phichol the captain of his host, went to him from Gerar. And Isaac said to them, Why are ye come to me, seeing ye hate me, and have driven me away from you?" Now these are all ordinary matters, but God is helping in them. "And they said, We saw certainly that Jehovah is with thee; and we said, Let there be then an oath between us -- between us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee, that thou wilt do us no wrong, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done to thee nothing but good, and have let thee go in peace; thou art now blessed of Jehovah". That is what they said to him; that is, these Philistines have come to see that God is withMAN (2)
MAN (3)
MAN (4)
MAN (5)
MAN (6)
"When Our hearts this place accord Him,
When, as Isaac, He has come,
We shall then in answer to Him
Cast out Hagar and her son". MAN (7)