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Pages 1 to 532 -- Readings on "Man" from "Notes of Readings in New York and other Ministry", 1949 to 1952 (Volumes 182, 187 and 190).

MAN (1)

Genesis 1:26,27; Psalm 8:3 - 9; Hebrews 2:5 - 10

J.T. The subject suggested for this series of readings is Man. The passages read are, as the brethren will understand, just preliminary to the subject which will, if God permit, require twelve readings. It is hoped that these scriptures will open up to us, beginning, as they do, with Genesis 1 and going on almost to the end of the New Testament in the epistle to the Hebrews. It is to be observed that the first time God said, "Let us", it is to bring out this matter of manhood: "Let us make man in our image". "Male and female", it says, "created he them", and they were to have dominion. The feminine is included in the statement in verse 27, yet the woman did not appear until chapter 2; and in that chapter we have the name "Jehovah" included in the divine titles, as if there are peculiar feelings of affection as the thought of man comes into view. Then as we shall see as we proceed, the New Testament adds the idea of Christ, the Lord Jesus, as indeed His name is; we see Jesus, because that is the prime thought to be reached, not simply man, but Jesus. Then it is to be noted in the second chapter that although the lower creatures are named by Adam, yet he found, it is said, no counterpart, his like. Adam himself, it would seem, had in mind to find some such one, but he did not find her; but God found her for him. All that leads up to the grand thought of the assembly, as Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32.

A.B.P. Is the woman seen as complementary to the man?

J.T. Well, it says in chapter 2:20, "And Man gave names to all cattle", Genesis 2:20. The word Man is written

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with a capital. I should have mentioned at first that there are probably twenty terms in Scripture denoting manhood, words used for "man", which indicates in itself what a subject it is. So in this 20th verse it is said, "And Man gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like" Genesis 2:20. It is not said that God did not find her, but that he found no helpmate, his like. Then it says in verse 21, "And Jehovah Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall upon Man; and he slept. And he took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man And Man said, This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh" Genesis 2:21 - 24.

So that the subject now before us is clearly laid out in these early verses of Scripture. It also says in chapter 2 that "there was no man to till the ground But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul" Genesis 2:5 - 7. So that the account is made very clear to us, the second chapter adding greatly to the facts of the first chapter.

R.W.S. How do you view the "us" of verse 26? "And God said, Let us make man"

J.T. The three divine Persons may be involved; otherwise it might be simply the "us" of dignity But I think it is safer to regard it that the three divine Persons are involved.

L.W. How should we look at what Elihu says in Job 33:4 in relation to this matter? He says, "The

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Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life", Job 33:4.

J.T. That is simply a statement of facts; it might be said of Adam too; only as we come down the line to a great number of persons one of them can designate things, he can give an account of himself.

A.R. There appear to be two meanings to this word 'man:' there is one meaning in verse 26 and another in verse 27.

J.T. Yes; the first one may mean 'red earth', that is the accepted meaning of it; the note says 'earthy', but the word 'red' is alleged to enter into it. In any case it would be 'earthy'.

A.R. Does 'the Adam' (verse 27), include the woman?

J.T. That involves another name still; Ish is man and Ishshah is woman.

A.R. Would it be right to say that the woman is included in the second word for man?

J.T. In the divine mind she was included in verse 26, but we can see as we read on that she was not actually included; God built her, a remarkable thing. It is the first time that we get the word 'built', and it refers to woman. It does not say of Adam that he was built.

R.W.S. Is there some distinction as to that, in that male and female are created; and would it be right to say that the assembly is created?

J.T. Just so, it is created.

C.F.E. Why do you think it was in the mind of God that man should be in full maturity at the beginning, 'man' and not 'child'?

J.T. He was not born, you mean, quite so; it does not say that he was born, he was created, or made. We might say all others were born.

J.T.Jr. Much had come in prior to this reference to man. This is the sixth day, and as you pointed

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out, it says, "Let us", whereas it does not say that as to prior matters on the previous days. So that you have the creation of all else up to this point till you have the cattle and then man.

J.T. So that the thing becomes extremely affecting because it has in mind the Lord Jesus; it has in mind the birth of the Lord Jesus; that was in the mind of God.

A.R. You made a remark some time ago as to why God waited until the sixth day to create man.

J.T. That is a question that has to be considered. Why had He to wait? But He did wait.

V.C.L. You spoke recently as to the manner of what was good being in God's mind. On the sixth day it says God saw that it was very good. Does that link on with this matter of man?

J.T. Just so. And why did He make angels before He made man? That is another question; and there is no sex mentioned as regards angels, while there is as regards man.

A.N.W. The cattle are brought into being, apparently, the same day as man. What is there in that? "Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind". The whole system seems not to be complete until the man comes in verse 26.

J.T. And then the further instruction we have as to him; it is not simply a question of creation or formation, though there is formation; but in chapter 2:5,6 it says, "And there was no man to till the ground. But a mist went up from the earth, and moistened the whole surface of the ground. And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul", Genesis 2:5 - 7. So that he is unique in that God breathed into him; not even his wife has the same place of uniqueness.

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C.A.M. Verse 20 says, "As for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:20. You were referring to it just now, and to the matter of angels. Would a verse like that show how different man was from the order of angels, in that there was something in Adam which required a helpmate?

J.T. Clearly; "I will make him a helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:18. God says. Although Adam himself evidently had the thought, yet God had it too, and in a fuller way than Adam; so that God had foreseen the need in causing Adam to become asleep. Thus the figure of death comes in, you might say, to bring out the figure of the assembly.

C.A.M. I suppose it would be right to say that in creating Adam God so created him that he would not be complete without this addition?

J.T. That is right, I would say that.

S.J.M. The Lord uses the same word here for building the woman as in Matthew 16 where He says, "On this rock I will build my assembly", Matthew 16:18. Does that fit in here?

J.T. Yes, so that we can see that these wonderful things were in the divine mind from the very outset, from Genesis 1 right down: "on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18. It is not that hades' gates shall not prevail against God, but against 'it'. The 'it' is remarkable, the 'it' is the assembly.

G.H. What is the thought of "in our image" and "after our likeness"?

J.T. Well, image is representation, and likeness is just what the word says like God. The man represents God and he is like God. That could not be said of angels.

Rem. Man is so important according to God that the divine mind called him into being; it was not as with the other creatures where God said, "Let there be light", Genesis 1:3.

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and "Let the waters swarm", Genesis 1:20 and so forth. With man He said, "Let us".

J.T. Yes, the "us" is mentioned there for the first time, as if it was a special matter, a peculiar matter, the only one of its kind really. And it points to Christ, I think.

F.S.C. Why are the absence of rain and the absence of man put together here?

J.T. The absence of rain was made up for by the mist. Chapter 1:26 gives the fact that God made man; it says, "Let us make man in our image", but we have to see that it was anticipative; we have to wait for chapter 2:5 to get the facts, as if we are given to understand that the matter is very important. It is mentioned twice as to man, in chapter 1 and in chapter 2, and in much more detail in chapter 2; and then again as to woman, how she was formed; she was formed in an entirely different way from Adam, she was built, as if we are to be reminded that the assembly is built. It is a remarkable thing.

E.A.L. Not only was the building of the woman entirely God's matter, but also the thought behind it, would you say? Because it does not appear here that Adam desired a wife; it does not say so in Scripture, does it?

J.T. It is just a question of verse 20: "Man gave names", it says, "to all cattle, and to the fowl of the heavens, and to every beast of the field; but as for Adam, he found no helpmate, his like", Genesis 2:20. It does not say that God did not find, but that Adam did not find.

E.A.L. But the thought behind the building of a woman was not that of another Adam, that is what I meant; it was not to be of his own sex. Was not the thought behind it purely God's matter?

J.T. Oh, quite so, but it was Adam's matter, too, for it says he found no helpmate, his like. And his

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like would mean like himself, only in the feminine sense; as one has said, It is myself over again. So Adam might say, It is myself over again. It is a female instead of a male, but it is the same idea.

Ques. In the antitype, did the Lord have any feelings like these you were alluding to in verse 20?

J.T. Just what is in your mind as to the antitype?

Ques. I am thinking of the Lord when He came here according to the gospels, what did He find? Did He find anything for Himself, or did it await the coming of the Spirit?

J.T. Well, it is a question of our minds coming into action as we are here together to help each other; as to whether there is anything in the gospels that would suggest to the Lord's mind this idea that we are now dealing with.

S.J.M. I was thinking of the Lord seeking; He came as a merchantman seeking goodly pearls, it says; and when He had found one pearl of great price, He sold all that He had and purchased it.

J.T. That is good, that is a direct allusion I would say to this whole matter.

A.N.W. Would not the beauty that He saw be but the reflection of Himself? The pearl was a beautiful one but was not that beauty His own reflection?

J.T. So that as I was saying -- it is not my own remark -- Adam could say, It is myself over again; only a woman instead of a man. We must understand therefore that the assembly is Christ over again, only in the feminine sense. So that the real idea must develop in the sense that Christ represents the masculine and the assembly represents the feminine.

J.H.E. Does Ephesians 1 help? It says, "According as he has chosen us in him before the world's foundation, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love; having marked us out beforehand for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself", Ephesians 1:4,5.

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It was necessary that fulness might come into the matter.

J.T. I think that you are quite right; it is something to add to what we are talking about, and the gospels help us in this great subject.

A.R. Did Saul of Tarsus learn what you have been saying when the Lord said to him, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest"? Is that Himself over again, on earth?

J.T. Just so.

J.T.Jr. The idea of the image must have been on Adam's mind when he was looking at the animals as they came; what he was looking for would not be this animal, or that. The image must have been what affected him. It was the same form.

J.T. And then, of course, God had to put Adam, as it were, through death; Adam must suffer; not indeed that there was actual suffering, but the figure of the thing is there, that he must go through death, as the Lord Jesus did, in order to have his wife. The Lord Jesus gave Himself for the assembly; He loved the assembly and gave Himself for it.

F.H.L. Then we are entitled to look at the assembly without previous history or taint of sin?

J.T. Just so, that is good; without previous history and without suggestion of sin. It is entirely a question of God, His own suggestion, only that Christ comes into it of course.

V.C.L. In chapter 1 it says, "In the image of God created he him; male and female created he them", as though in chapter 1 they are both in the image of God. In chapter 2 the woman is in Adam's likeness. Does that show the greatness of the man?

J.T. Just so; and then in chapter 5:1 you get a further statement, if you will read it.

V.C.L. "This is the book of Adam's generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created", Genesis 5:1,2.

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J.T. I think that is a most remarkable verse, and that is why I suggested it should be read that it should be on our minds.

F.N.W. Is there some instruction in the fact that there is apparently no reference to male and female in regard to the other members of creation until we come to chapter 6, in connection with Noah? Does that show the distinctive place that man has in God's mind?

J.T. It does indeed; and I think the more you ponder it the more you see how distinctive it is, and how it ought to touch our hearts that God Himself was thinking of Christ. Indeed He was thinking of Christ and the assembly. So Paul says, "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32.

S.W. Would you say a word about man being formed? In chapter 1:27 it says He created man; in the second chapter Man was formed, dust out of the ground. I was wondering if Ephesians 4:12,13 would be in line with the formation of Man? It says, "For the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man", Ephesians 4:12,13. I was wondering if formation enters into that, arriving at the thought of manhood by formation? The woman is builded, the assembly is built, but the man is formed. Would you say that?

J.T. Quite so.

A.B.P. What distinction would you make between formation and growth? Ephesians 4 seems to carry the idea of growth, does it not? Whereas you do not have that with Adam.

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J.T. I do not think the idea of growth comes in with Adam and Eve. They are full grown I would say; they are not children. It is not the idea of children but of full-grown beings, that is what the figure brings out.

A.B.P. That is why I was wondering about the connection with Ephesians 4, because there it is "until we all arrive ... at the full-grown man", Ephesians 4:13 it is the idea of growth there, is it not?

J.T. That fits in with what we are speaking of, the complete idea of full growth. Of course a child is not that, a child is born and grows up, but what God has in mind in this wonderful figure is formation. But there is creation too, and we have to distinguish between creation and formation.

A.A.T. I notice in Genesis 2:7 it says, "And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul", Genesis 2:7. Does not the "living soul" bring in responsibility?

J.T. Well, it brings in the idea of affection. The thought comes in first on the fifth day. In chapter 1:20,21 it says, "And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living souls", Genesis 1:20 that is to say, affections; that is where you get the idea of affections, in souls, swarms of living souls: "and let fowl fly above the earth in the expanse of the heavens. And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good", Genesis 1:21. That is, the fishes and the birds seem to have come in on the same day so that we have to take something out of that too.

A.N.W. Is the spirit linked with the divine breath being breathed into man's nostrils?

J.T. I think so, that is just what it is, it is the divine breath; the spirit of the beast goes downward,

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but the spirit of man goes upward, that is, it returns to God who gave it. But then in saying all these things we must ever keep in mind that God had His own treasure, and His own thoughts, and these thoughts are all in Christ; and in making man He had Christ in mind. The remarkable thing is that He waited until the sixth day before He brought it out.

J.T.Jr. Do you think there is something in the fact that it is among the Philippians, in the assembly at Philippi, where Paul began, we might say, the great ministry in Europe, that the truth of the Lord's coming into manhood is brought out? He brings out there the greatness of the stoop, and the coming into manhood in the likeness of men. He speaks of the Lord not considering it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God, but that He humbled Himself and took a bondman's form; and then it says that He took His place in the likeness of men. It is the figure of a man; He came into that. I was wondering whether the fact of all this coming out among the Philippians has point in regard to the matter before us?

J.T. That is very good; and Acts 16 has something to say about that too.

J.T.Jr. In regard to Lydia you mean, with the women out by the river; and then the Lord opened her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul. Then at the end of the chapter it says that Paul returned to Lydia.

F.N.W. Earlier it says as to their movements that the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.

J.T. Yes, just so. So that all these things work out what we are dealing with. And it is remarkable, as just pointed out, that it is Philippi where all this suggestion comes out as to man.

A.N.W. "A certain Macedonian man" Acts 16:9 is the statement as to Paul's vision; it is very striking.

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R.W.S. So that God never reached finality in angels, did He? Is not man His most recent and His crowning thought?

J.T. And so the contrast is between man and angels; but that Man is Christ. We get it in Hebrews 1, showing that it was in God's mind that it was Christ. Manhood was in Christ.

V.C.L. Is it not significant that it was Paul, the one to whom the mystery of the assembly was given, who brings out the contrast between Man and angels? "To which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son ... ?" Hebrews 1:5. It would seem as though Paul, having the light of the assembly, also had the light of this comparison with angels.

J.T. And so the chapter concludes, "Are they not all ministering spirits ... ?". That is what the angels are, "sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation", Hebrews 1:14 that is, Christians. We are the ones that are in mind. But the main thought is Christ -- He is first -- and our being formed according to Him.

C.A.M. Referring to Philippi again where Paul went through the sufferings to which he alludes in the Philippian epistle as "offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith", Philippians 2:17 it was in that setting that the feminine side also came to light so beautifully, did it not, in Lydia and others?

J.T. So that I think we ought to go on to Psalm 8 now to bring out the feelings in the whole matter. Of course it is a psalm, and in order to get the fulness of it we have to go to Hebrews to bring out the mind of God in Christ.

A.B.P. Is there some point in the fact that this psalm is upon the Gittith, which is a feminine idea? I refer to the title of the psalm, "Upon the Gittith", the footnote refers to what is feminine.

J.T. Quite so. That shows that it can be worked out as to the assembly. But we must look at the

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epistle to the Hebrews to get the whole matter that is in mind before us and to bring out the idea of the assembly in this great subject, first as to Christ Himself, and then as to the assembly.

J.T.Jr. The idea therefore of redemption is seen in this section, which would be in type in Genesis, I suppose, in Adam's sleep. The Lord partook of blood and flesh that He might annul him that has the might of death, that is the devil; it has set us free. It is a reference, I suppose, to Adam's sleep; typically the Lord going through things to redeem us to God.

J.T. You cannot exactly bring sufferings into it in Genesis, but you can bring them into it eventually.

Rem. Adam and Eve discredited the thought of man; but your thought is that the matter of Christ and the assembly has dignified the whole thing.

J.T. Quite so, that is the thing, that is the grand thought. Someone has mentioned that there is no previous history for the assembly, all has emanated from God. The assembly has no sinful history in that sense.

Ques. Is the superiority of man to angels the present position of man here?

J.T. That is only to bring out that to which the Lord subjected Himself; He submitted to that; but He is God Himself. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth", John 1:14.

A.N.W. Would it be that He was capable of dying, while angels were not? Is that the point there? For the suffering of death: it says, "made some little inferior to angels on account of the suffering of death".

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J.T. Quite so; it was all a scheme, a divine scheme of love. It was essential in order to bring out the divine thoughts. And so what a time God may give us as month after month passes by and we continue to look into this wonderful subject! We are to see how Christ and the assembly are really in mind in it all.

E.A.L. It says, in verse 16, "For he does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham", Hebrews 2:16. I was thinking of what you said earlier, the angels having been made before man, but it is God's mind that while Adam was made first, the woman (made secondarily) would point to the assembly. So that what was secondary was of great importance.

J.T. What we had at Chicago would help us as to this, the recency of man, why should it be? We felt the need of touching on it, and what the sisters are as well as the brothers in all these occasions, so as to bring out what was in the mind of God from the outset; how He waited for all these centuries to bring it out; and how we should learn how to wait, and to see how things develop in the mind of God, that love is at work.

D.P. Is man after the order of Christ a better man than Adam in innocence?

J.T. Quite. Of course the Lord Jesus became a Man, and all was there in Him that was intended to be developed in man; all was there in Christ, the power to discern sin and to judge it.

Ques. Does not the difference of the manhood seen in the Lord Jesus come out in the disciples' words, "What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!" Matthew 8:27.

J.T. Just so. What a field there is before us as time goes on, if the Lord leaves us here to work it all out! What there is to be seen in Christ and in the assembly, that is to say, in ourselves!

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T.E.H. Properly speaking we have only the two men, the earthly, out of the earth, and the heavenly, out of heaven, have we not?

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Does Hebrews 2:5 refer to the millennium? It says, "For he has not subjected to angels the habitable world which is to come, of which we speak".

J.T. Yes, the millennium is the world to come of which we speak. We are in the world in which the assembly is being formed, and the world to come is the millennial world.

Ques. In the assembly we also speak of the new heavens and the new earth; is not our conversation about that world as well as the millennial world?

J.T. I think the millennial world is the thing that is in mind when it says, "of which we speak".

A.N.W. The footnote says that it was a known division amongst the Jews. Referring to that very expression, "the habitable world which is to come", the note says: 'A known division amongst the Jews. First', this age '; and then what was to be introduced by the Messiah'. It confirms just what you are saying.

A.R. So that Hebrews 12 bears on the present time, does it?

J.T. Well, there are eight things mentioned, if you will read them.

A.R. "But ye have come to mount Zion; and to the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem; and to myriads of angels, the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; and to Jesus, mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, speaking better than Abel", Hebrews 12:22 - 24.

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J.T. These are all things that will come out in formation in the world to come; that is what is in mind. They are being formed now, but they will come out perfectly, in full formation in the world to come. We have come to these things, the scripture says; it is a question now of seeing what they are and that we are to be in them, have part in them.

J.T.Jr. That is, the thing is already in our souls morally, in the assembly the thing is all there.

J.T. Just so. We have come to perfect things; not to half-made things but to perfect things. And we may come into them at any moment in full literality.

A.R. Does chapter 2 suggest that Christ is the centre of the whole system; the Man in heaven is the centre of everything?

J.T. That is so; you can see that Ephesians would work all that out, as part of the system. All these things are worked out in Ephesians.

A.B.P. Are you carrying forward into Psalm 8 the thought of man and woman in the word Man? Does the question, "What is man?" embrace man and woman as the word 'Man' in Genesis does?

J.T. I think it embraces both. In Genesis God says, "Let us make man in our image ... and let them have dominion". It is the plural immediately.

A.B.P. So that is carried forward into Psalm 8?

J.T. Quite so, and then brought down to ourselves in Hebrews; brought down to our very selves.

F.N.W. There is something that is not too clear to me yet as to the building of the woman. Is that included in the sixth day along with the making of man, or is that something additional?

J.T. Oh, I do not think so, it was all in the one day; it was the sixth day of creation.

F.N.W. Chapter 2 then would be more the detail of the sixth day?

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J.T. I think so; we shall have to go back and see what it says: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth". Now go to the first verse of chapter 2; "And the heavens and the earth and all their host were finished. And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it", Genesis 2:1 - 3. Well, that is a finished matter.

A.N.W. Verse 27 reads: "And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them", Genesis 1:27.

J.T. It is all there, it is in anticipation, but the second chapter has to be gone into to make the thing complete, because you get the title 'Jehovah' in the second chapter which you do not get in the first chapter. I mean to say that God has rights that He reserves in all that He has to say, and therefore we have to come into chapter 2 to see that the thing was completed; there was nothing to be added to it.

F.N.W. And what you have read from the beginning of chapter 2 would show that God's rest could not be secured until the woman was properly formed.

C.A.M. I think you have said that chapter 2 was the filling out of the first.

J.T. That is a good way to put it. Surely God has a right to do that, giving, you might say, an outline first and then adding something else so that the thing is complete.

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G.H. Genesis 2 speaks of moisture to moisten the whole surface of the ground in connection with the formation of man. Does this thought of moisture fit in with the present spiritual formation?

J.T. I suppose it does; after all, things are not all finished, not every man and woman has come in yet that is to come in as a Christian, so that we have to wait. But then God can take things up from His point of view and speak of them as finished, because He is God.

A.R. The fact of man in Psalm 8 including the woman is a great matter. The woman is included in Hebrews 2 also, is she not?

J.T. Just so.

J.T.Jr. So that Genesis 2 is not the filling out of the sun and moon, or of the earth itself, but of man. And so in Hebrews, the reference is to bring out that what God has in mind is man and woman, Christ and the assembly.

J.T. We come to that. It is a wonderful thing that we come to that eventually; the man and the woman; first the masculine in Christ, and then the feminine in the assembly; that is the feminine side of the truth.

A.R. Is that why the passage is added to by quoting Psalm 22, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises"? Hebrews 2:12.

J.T. Just so. There is a question therefore whether the eternal condition of things will include Israel as such because the idea in eternity is man and woman; that is the primary idea. The question is whether Israel will come into that, or whether it will be just a millennial idea. That is for the brethren to think about.

S.W. It was ever in the mind of God that there should be an affinity between the man and the woman, was it not?

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J.T. That is right, mutual affinity.

S. W. I was thinking of Exodus 2, "A man of the house of Levi", and "a daughter of Levi", Exodus 2:1. That can be worked out amongst us now.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. How far does the "all of one" go in verse 11? It says the Sanctifier and the sanctified are "all of one", Hebrews 2:11. How far would you say that goes? I thought that perhaps it might have a link with Genesis 2 where there is that affinity.

J.T. We must be most careful about guarding the Person of Christ in all these things. It says, "For both he that sanctifies" -- that is the Lord Himself, "and those sanctified" -- those are ourselves, "are all of one"; that is, all of one kind as you might say, all of one kind. And yet the Lord Jesus is a divine Person and we are creatures. But then the thought is applied to us, "all of one"; you might add the word 'kind' to simplify it. But "all of one" is the word of Scripture. That is to say Christ and ourselves are all of one.

A.N. W. So much so that it goes on to say, "For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren".

J.T. Quite so, "... saying, I will declare thy name to my brethren"; Hebrews 2:11,12 those are the Lord's own words to His Father in John 17:26.

Ques. Where things are made subject to the Lord in verses 6 - 8 of Hebrews 2, the assembly is included in His position, is it not?

J.T. Quite so. And divine Persons are gracious enough to include us in the oneness with Him.

A.B.P. Is not the deity of Christ guarded in Psalm 8 when it says, "When I see thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and stars, which thou hast established"? The sun is not referred to in that connection, it is the moon and the stars.

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J.T. Just so, it makes way for Christ, regarding the sun as a type of Christ. That is what is on your mind, is it not?

A.B.P. I thought the fact that the sun is not mentioned in relation to the work of the fingers would be a guarding of His Person.

J.T. Just so; the sun is needed to complete the system, the idea of the system; and what is needed is Christ Himself, He supplies what is needed.

S.J.M. Would the fingers suggest the detailed working out of the thing, do you think? It does not say the hand.

J.T. Detail is good, quite so; and how much there is in the working out of God's thoughts in the saints! What detail there is, what patience there is! And we are exhorted to "have patience, therefore, brethren, till the coming of the Lord", James 5:7.

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MAN (2)

Genesis 5:1 - 24

J.T. There are certain definite links between this chapter and the last paragraph of chapter 4. Verse 25 of that chapter leads up to Seth, whose name is said to mean 'appointed'. There would be undoubtedly a divine thought in that, that God had taken up Seth to bring out the thought of His counsels leading up to the family of God in this chapter. These men each lived a long time. It is suggested that the thought of the love of God cannot be excluded from the chapter. God has begun again here, and we have, "This is the book of Adam's generations". It is suggested that this section involves the family of God and the counsels of God, beginning with Seth; so that we are placed on a high level of truth in which I believe the Lord would sustain us. It is not a mere matter of analysis or history, but that God has entered into the matter Himself; not only in a creational sense but in the sense of love; that He is God. Presently we shall take up Abraham and others to see how His thoughts work out; but in this section we have great and fresh thoughts about God and the family of God, about the human race. I use the word 'family' only in the sense in which it is found in this chapter; and whilst Adam cannot quite be said to belong to the children of God as never having been a child, yet he belongs to this chapter. In chapter 1 it is just Adam; but in this chapter there is the additional thought of what Adam became, and his family. So that we have here the generations of Adam: "The book of the generations of Adam". The word 'generation' has to be regarded in its own meaning: it is the head of an order of man or of a family. There are many of them spoken of throughout Scripture; about ten of them throughout this book.

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F.H.L. Were you linking this on with the words at the end of chapter 4, where it says, "Then people began to call on the name of Jehovah"? Genesis 4:26.

J.T. That is right, they began to call upon the Name. The word 'Jehovah' comes in in chapter 2 -- Jehovah Elohim -- so that a link of family relation is already introduced.

A.R. Do you get the family idea in verse 3, "And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his likeness, after his image, and called his name Seth"?

J.T. Just so; it is linked up with verse 26 of the previous chapter where "people began to call on the name of Jehovah", Genesis 4:26.

They began to call on it, showing the thought of respect for the relation between God and His people which comes out more fully in Exodus where the name of God is fully disclosed.

Ques. Is the use of the name Jehovah here anticipative of what was to come out?

J.T. That is right, it comes out in Exodus. God discloses His name to Moses: "I AM THAT I AM".

Exodus 3:14.

A.N.W. And Enoch's name, meaning 'disciplined', would confirm it on our side, would it not? The thought of discipline would seem to bring in the family relationship, or would be the effect of family relationship.

J.T. Just so, very good.

R.W.S. Is there a moral touch in verse 26 where it says, "and he called his name Enosh"? Genesis 4:26. I think that is the third name that has been used so far to designate man. We had Adam, and Ish, and now Enosh. This seems to be the third name for man, meaning that he is weak and mortal.

J.T. Yes; that is the meaning as given in the note. As calling upon the name of Jehovah men accepted that death had come in and that Enosh was a representative of it; his father evidently recognised that when he gave him his name, Enosh,

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poor mortal man. Of course we are all mortal and we may as well accept it, only with us we know that the Lord is coming for us. The word 'mortal' means that we are liable to death, but at the same time faith enables us to reckon that the Lord is coming for us, that we should look for that and not simply for death. Some are looking for death, but it is clear that the New Testament would encourage our hearts to look for the coming of the Lord to take us.

J.T.Jr. We have the word 'mortal' in Romans 8 in connection with our mortal bodies. It is in line with what you are saying: "if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", Romans 8:11.

J.T. That came out recently in meetings in England and it seemed to lend touch or colour to what we were having; the thought of our being mortal, and that the Spirit of God changes that for us is touching. He changes our mortal bodies and quickens them so that we may not die. The Lord says, "Whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die", John 11:26.

F.N.W. The expression "children of God" is mentioned in Romans 8 in that same paragraph. Would that be a family relationship connected with our mortal condition? The full thought of sonship, "sons of God", Romans 8:14 is not connected with our present mortal condition, is it?

J.T. We are sons, however, as well as children: "But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father", Galatians 4:6.

F.N.W. Is not the fulness of it connected with a body of glory like Christ's?

J.T. Quite so.

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A.N.W. Is not the skill of the Spirit seen in Psalm 8? He says in verse 4, "What is man ... ?", Psalm 8:4 referring to this same word, 'Enosh' -- man in his feeble mortal condition; but when He says, "the son of man", He uses the word 'Adam', not the one suggesting feebleness. Is that not the skill of the Spirit as having Christ in view in changing over to the word 'Adam?'

J.T. Showing how the mind of God is interwoven from the outset, the mind of God in whatever sense. It is a new generation in the end of Genesis 4 and they began to call on the name of Jehovah.

D.McD. Is the scripture you referred to in Romans 8 morally true now? Or does it refer to the actual translation when it speaks of quickening our mortal bodies?

J.T. It is not moral now because it is a question of our mortal bodies being quickened. It has not a present application.

A.N.W. I think the verses we read would confirm it; it says in chapter 8:11, "But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you", Romans 8:11. It seems to stand related to the raising up of Christ.

S.J.M. Should we not, therefore, value our bodies at the present time in relation to the testimony?

J.T. Quite so, they are the Lord's. They will presently be translated, but they are the Lord's now, even in the mortal condition. We should accustom ourselves to look for the change alluded to -- the quickening of our mortal bodies. We should become accustomed to that, and not simply occupy ourselves with the possibility that we are going to die; it is better to be occupied with the truth as Scripture puts it. Of course, some were told that they would die, as, for instance, Peter; and

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the apostle Paul contemplates the possibility of it; he said it would be far better than his then condition. But generally speaking the thought is that the Lord is coming for us, and the Spirit is ready to quicken us at any time; He is ready to do it.

A.R. Do you think that Enoch anticipated translation?

J.T. "He was not", it says; he was translated, but we cannot say any more than that. "He was not", and "before his translation he has the testimony that he had pleased God", Hebrews 11:5 which is a very great thing that will come in presently when we are talking about his name.

R.W.S. Chapter 4 does not say that the progeny of Cain died. There are certain names too in that chapter which are similar to those in chapter 5. Would all that affect Seth so that when his son is born he calls him Enosh, to repudiate the principles of Cain's world?

J.T. Just so. So that I think we are entitled to regard this chapter as over against chapter 4, and to refer to the death of the saints that these are "the dead in Christ", 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in principle at least. From the light we have in the New Testament we are entitled to think of their death as the death of the saints. Is that clear?

R.W.S. Yes, it is; I am glad you mentioned that because there are certain names that are similar in the two chapters; yet those in the one allude to the saints and in the other to men in Cain's world.

J.T. So that in 1 Thessalonians 4, the chapter that speaks of the Lord's coming for us, the dead in Christ are said to rise first. Then we which are alive shall be quickened. So that I think we should be entitled to confirm what we said at the beginning, that this chapter is the family of God and that they are going to rise first.

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A.B.P. Would there be any suggestion of Abel's death being typical of the death of Christ?

J.T. Yes, he is a type; and Seth is a type too, I think; he is appointed, as the Lord is appointed, instead of Adam.

V.C.L. You have spoken elsewhere of God having His great thought of what is good and that it brings in Adam's generations; and I wondered if that is the reason that faith is linked on with Enoch, according to Hebrews 11?

J.T. Just so.

V.C.L. Then in a sense are these seven a complete picture of what God had for Himself in spite of sin? Are we allowed to see in these seven men, Adam to Enoch, that God reserves the better part for Himself in that era, even though sin came in?

J.T. Exactly. We had at Chicago what we have come to in Hebrews 12; and amongst the things mentioned are the dead in Christ, those that are to be raised. The idea is that the dead in Christ rise first.

Ques. You said in regard to "the spirits of just men made perfect" Hebrews 12:23 that they are these men in this chapter. How are we to understand that these are the just men referred to?

J.T. Well, it is the truth; the teaching of the chapter refers to the family of God. They are the ones that will rise first, they come into the resurrection first; then we which are alive and remain shall be changed and caught up to be ever with the Lord. We are to comfort one another with these words.

E.A.L. In Moses and Elias on the mount of transfiguration, do we see there the spirits of just men made perfect?

J.T. Well, we must keep in mind the word which says that "they should not be made perfect without us", Hebrews 11:40.

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R.W.S. Does Seth head up the family of God in this section?

J.T. I think so, it is the idea that attaches to him, I think. "And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son, and called his name Seth" (Genesis 4:25). She called his name Seth, and then it goes on to say, "For God has appointed me another seed instead of Abel". That is to say, he is taking the place of Abel.

F.S.C. Does 1 Chronicles 1 bring out what we are saying? "Adam, Seth, Enosh", 1 Chronicles 1:1 and so on.

J.T. Just so, it alludes to this; it shows the character of the first book of Chronicles. Just the names are given.

F.H.L. In this second verse it says that God created, and He blessed, and He called. Would this blessing bring them into the family?

J.T. I think so; very good. This word 'blessing' is really entering into the whole chapter, and the thought of the family of God enters into it too.

R.W.S. Will you enlarge on how Seth is a type of Christ?

J.T. He is appointed instead of Abel; it is just a dim allusion but we can see the appointed One; God has appointed a day "in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed", Acts 17:31. That is stated distinctly.

R.W.S. God's Man!

A.N.W. There is a hiatus against his name in verse 25 of chapter 4. There is evidently something striking to the writer which that would indicate.

J.T. The word 'appointed' as given in the footnote referring to Seth's name, has a great place here, and links with what has been said, that God "has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead", Acts 17:31.

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So that resurrection is in mind.

J.T.Jr. In Acts 17 Paul goes back to the creation; he begins with, "The God who has made the world and all things which are in it"; Acts 17:24 that is, he does not refer exactly to Israel, he goes back to the creation. And then in that verse you read, "by the man whom he has appointed", we get the very word 'Seth, appointed', brought in.

J.T. I think that will appeal to all the brethren, that we have come to something very definite in the name Seth, taking the place of Abel.

A.R. You mean there is the suggestion of resurrection in Seth?

J.T. That is what is seen in what we have quoted in the New Testament, as well as here.

Rem. The history of the family of Cain in the fourth chapter ends up with a murder, and it does not say that one came in in the place of the murdered man. But here we have Seth coming in in the place of Abel, which you say is typical of Christ coming in.

J.T. Quite so, I think it is very wonderful, and I use the word 'wonderful' deliberately, how all this comes into this chapter which is the family chapter, and how the lives of the saints are given, including Enoch, though he "was not found, because God had translated him"; Hebrews 11:5 that is, he is a type of the risen glorified saints.

A.B.P. Is there a suggestion in the fact that their years are mentioned in days, that those days were all taken account of by God? While their lives were long in years, yet they were divided into days.

J.T. Every day was valuable, "And thy rest as thy days", Deuteronomy 33:25. That is a great encouragement to us.

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D.P. Do these names set out distinctive personalities, showing that some feature of God was formed in each of these men?

J.T. I think so; it is a family chapter, you know. "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. It says further, "What we shall be has not yet been manifested", 1 John 3:2 but we are something, we are something definite, the children of God. John would bring this chapter into that.

T.N.W. With reference to Seth it says that he was begotten in the image and likeness of Adam. Those two expressions are used in the first chapter in connection with God and the creation of Adam. Is there a link?

J.T. I suppose there is; Adam is brought into it definitely in chapter 5. It is a matter of Adam's generations.

A.A.T. Speaking of days, it says in the last chapter of Job that he died, "old and full of days", Job 42:17. Would that correspond with this chapter?

J.T. Very good. God made much of Job when he was restored. God made a great deal of him. He calls him, "My servant Job". He said to the three friends, "My servant Job shall pray for you", Job 42:8.

V.C.L. In connection with the family idea, is it not remarkable that apparently Adam was alive most of the time that Enoch was walking with God? It would show the remarkable overlapping of what was pleasing to God in these men.

J.T. Just so; God looks down on His family, He knows every one of us, our traits and what characterises us, every one of us. And I think it is very beautiful that we are able to call each other by name, we are friends of each other and can call each other by name. Very likely we could name each other even now in this room, although there

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are a good few of us. We ought to accustom ourselves to the idea of the names of the friends.

S.J.M. The Lord in John 10 says that He calls His own sheep by name.

J.T. Just so; and John is the one who mentions the idea of greeting the friends by name.

S.W. You were saying that we should live in the light of the rapture, which is very encouraging to us all. But must we not have the thought of Enosh before us before we can get to Enoch? I mean the thought of the weak mortal man.

J.T. Enoch was a sufferer, a sufferer for the truth, I would say; he was devoted, he was a man that was disciplined; he brings in the idea of being disciplined.

S.W. Yes, I just thought of man's days being numbered, as in Psalm 103man's days "are as grass", Psalm 103:15. We should have it before us that our days are short so that our minds will be occupied with the thought of the rapture.

J.T. And then that we are amongst the disciplined ones whom the Father loves, for whom God loves He chastens. Every father chastens his sons, and God chastens us because He loves us. We have that before us too.

S.J.M. In reference to the appointment of Seth, is not the enemy bent on breaking the link, but will not God see to it at all times that it is maintained? In the Acts we get two appointed from whom one is to take the place of Judas. Is there something in that, that things are to be maintained unbroken, nothing is to be broken? So we get Seth where Abel left off; he is appointed for Abel.

J.T. Just so, in Acts the number twelve is secured; and the appointment secures it. The book of Acts would strengthen that position. The divine number must be maintained, and that divine number is twelve. It is maintained in Acts and it is maintained

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in Revelation 21; the names of the apostles are written there.

A.N.W. Seth is needed to complete the seven, is he not? He is one in the vital link of the seven.

Ques. Does Seth rise to the thought in Ephesians where it says we have been "marked out beforehand ... according to the counsel of his own will"? Ephesians 1:11. You mentioned the word 'counsel' in your opening remarks. Is the thought here that God was not taken unawares by the death of Abel?

J.T. Just so; things must fit into the divine thoughts, and God sees to it that they do. They fit in the testimony down here too as shown in the number twelve, and they fit in heaven.

F.H.L. The generations go on, the sons and daughters come to light in every case.

J.T. Sons and daughters convey the family thought.

A.R. In Genesis 1:28 God said, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth", Genesis 1:28. In that injunction would He have in mind this family, that they were the only ones worthy to be multiplied? Would that refer to the family of God?

J.T. Exactly, only that chapter 5 carries the thought of the family more than the first chapter.

Ques. Certain things are mentioned about man in chapter 5:2 that have been mentioned in chapter one. Is that an indication that although sin has come in, God is retaining His prime thought?

J.T. Just so, His original thought.

A.N.W. Is that seen too in the fact that while it is six times repeated, "and he died", death taking six of them, yet the seventh God took? It was God's right, God took him.

C.H.H. Would the fact that these seven men would be living at the same time, overlapping each other, mean that God could look at His family as a

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perfect representation of Himself, that is, in the combination of the seven?

J.T. Yes, and John's epistle would work this out, too, in the family of God. The character of God is worked out in His family in John's three epistles, especially the first one.

A.B.P. Have you in mind the thought of the fathers and the young men and the children when you say that?

J.T. Yes; but I was speaking particularly of the scripture, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. The children of God are there; they must represent God.

A.B.P. Then in the overlapping that has been referred to there would be these different variations, would there not -- the fathers, the young men, and the children in the various stages of growth?

J.T. Just so.

S.J.M. I was noticing in the gospels where it speaks of affection -- because affection seems to underlie the whole position here -- that the Lord says, "The Father himself has affection for you", John 16:27. Do you think that fits in?

J.T. Quite so; "... because ye have had affection for me". The Lord was in their hearts, and now they are in His Father's heart.

J.G.B. Have you any thought as to why the mention of love does not come in until chapter 22? It says there, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac", Genesis 22:2. I was wondering why the family thought goes forward to that point before the matter of love is mentioned as you remarked on it in John's epistle.

J.T. You have to go forward a good distance in the Old Testament for that, but it is well to notice the word 'love', and that it is in connection with Isaac that we get it first used.

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S.J.M. But it underlies the chapter here, does it not? For it says, "Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him". It would be an underlying feature here?

J.T. It would, because this being the family chapter we must bring God into it, and His nature too, we might say; and that is what our brother has in mind, only that we have to go down to Isaac to get it fully. It is in the family of Abraham. It is in Abraham that we get the thought of the family intensified because he is the father of us all. It is the first time that we get a name like that. It means that he is the father of us all. Love belongs to that section.

A.R. We have in John's gospel the expression, "born ... of God". He is the Originator of a family in that sense.

C.H.H. Would the word 'likeness' in verse 3 involve nature? There would be affection there: Adam "begot a son in his likeness, after his image". Would "likeness" cover the idea of affection and love, whereas "image" would be the representation of God?

J.T. Very good; the idea of Adam's likeness being carried on through Seth.

J.T.Jr. In reference to Cain it is said that his countenance fell, which would allude, I suppose, to the condition of the old man in the world. The violence is all there.

F.H.L. Jude's reference to Enoch is in connection with a prophecy as to the ungodly. Would you say a word about that prophecy? It is a very remarkable matter.

J.T. It is in the book of Jude that Enoch is mentioned as a prophet. Will you read it, please; it is very important, especially as to the holy myriads.

F.H.L. "And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also as to these, saying, Behold, the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all; and to convict all the ungodly of them of all their works of ungodliness, which they have wrought ungodlily, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him", Jude 14,15.

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J.T. You can see that Jude has a good judgment as to the world, a very good judgment, and it is a good thing for young people to pay attention to it. And he calls the saints "his holy myriads". He says that the Lord is coming "amidst his holy myriads".

A.A.T. It says that Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him; and then in Colossians 3:3 it says, "For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God", Colossians 3:3. There is a connection between the two scriptures, is there not?

J.T. Yes, there is a connection; Enoch "was not, for God took him", and the word for us is, "For ye have died, and your life is hid with the Christ in God", Colossians 3:3. That is clearly connected with Enoch.

R.W.S. In the prophetic vision of Enoch it says, "Behold, the Lord has come", Jude 14. Is that still future?

J.T. It is future; but it is remarkable that the idea of the prophetic ministry is connected with this family chapter. Enoch represents it. He is telling about the future, but there is a moral lesson in it too because he speaks of holy myriads, that the Lord is coming with the holy myriads. That is a point that should come into our meetings for prophetic ministry.

V.C.L. Is the family thought borne out particularly by the mention each time of sons and daughters, as though, while it is a physical fact, nevertheless sons and daughters were pleasing to God then and are still pleasing to Him?

J.T. And so you might well connect that with 2 Corinthians 6 where separation is alluded to. It is

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said that if we are separate, "Ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty", 2 Corinthians 6:18.

S.J.M. Zacchaeus is called, by the Lord Himself, a son of Abraham. That would fit into this matter, would it not? Then later on He speaks of a daughter of Abraham, as though He carried the thing in His mind all the time.

J.T. You allude to the woman whom the Lord straightened. He said that she was a daughter of Abraham.

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MAN (3)

Genesis 5:32; Genesis 6:1 - 14; Genesis 7:1 - 24.

J.T. It was suggested that we read the verse in chapter 5 because it keeps Noah in the family that is delineated in that chapter; and it keeps him before us too according to the place that God had given him. It is sovereign selection of which he is proved to be worthy because his generations are given. It is the history of Noah, which refers to his generations. Then his sons are distinctly kept before us in the narrative, and his sons' wives as well as his own wife. Noah is distinguished in that he is said to have prepared an ark for the saving of his house, which is an example for us, especially as to baptism. The word is that it is a like figure according to which baptism now saves us. Baptism in the New Testament is an answer to the idea of the flood; it has the thought of purification as well as immersion. Another thing to be kept before us is the emphasis on the word 'Man' in this narrative, written with a capital, as we shall all have noticed, so that the idea is very pronounced and intended to be so in our minds at this time.

R.H.S. Is there a difference between the thought of 'Man' and the sons of God? Were the sons of God created before man, as suggested in Job?

J.T. Yes, that has to be kept in mind. Attention has been called to the recency of man's creation as compared with that of other beings. But we see here that man is in mind, and his destruction comes in in view of the terrible wickedness that had developed in the family. There is also allusion to the fall of certain of the angelic family. That is something that, perhaps, we have not touched on very much, but it should be noticed at this time. The allusion is to certain angels that fell, having become apostate,

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and they never were recovered; there is no such thought as any recovery of such beings. Only man is recovered.

Ques. They are numbered amongst the angels that kept not their first estate?

J.T. That is right.

T.N.W. Are they the spirits that are in prison, heretofore disobedient?

J.T. Those would be the persons to whom Noah preached but the sons of God would refer to angels who left their first estate.

C.A.M. With regard to the daughters of men, does not the enemy power seek to work out its terrible designs on the feminine side of things, as Satan at the beginning?

J.T. Yes, it does, which is a very solemn matter for us to consider.

A.A.T. Would it correspond with spiritualism today? These sons of God were not men, but apparently beings that are supernatural, I suppose, and I was wondering if today there is anything like that?

J.T. The question that has been raised is as to the feminine side in this passage; there is no female side among the angels, it is only among men that you get that thought, or among the lower creatures on the earth. I do not know if I have made that clear but it is important that what has been referred to should not be passed over.

A.N.W. The angels neither marry nor are given in marriage, we are told.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. You get in this chapter the place the Spirit has too: "My spirit shall not always plead with Man".

J.T. We shall also come to that touching reference to the dove in the latter part of the narrative, the dove coming into the ark; but we will not touch

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on it immediately. We are now speaking of the corruption on the earth that is unfolded in this passage in Genesis 6. It is a terrible time today for corruption of this kind and everyone should be aware of it in order to stand against it.

C.F.E. Do we see here the thought of departure?

J.T. We do, and I think we ought to keep it before us in the angelic side that is touched on here.

J.H.E. The Lord says, "As it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man", Matthew 24:37. We can expect such conditions now.

J.T. Just so; the awful corruption.

T.V.D. When the Lord was here and they came and asked Him about what Moses had said, that Moses had allowed a bill of divorcement, He answered that, 'In the beginning it was not so'. He goes right back to the beginning, the way things had come from God at the outset. In the beginning God had created male and female and joined them as man and wife; but this ordering man had corrupted and is still corrupting.

J.T. That is so.

A.B.P. Is it not particularly dangerous in our day because this kind of thing is more or less winked at by many prominent persons in the world? I thought the fact that the angels were involved in it here might set a sort of lead in the matter; and the fact that it is more or less winked at by persons in the world makes it very dangerous for our young people.

J.T. And so the Lord speaks of what was happening when the flood came; and this scripture shows the terribleness of the conditions that existed. When we come to the end of the Bible, to Revelation, there is much made of this terrible looseness, this corruption that is abroad amongst men, and we ought to be aware of it and set our faces against it in view of our young people.

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F.S.C. Is this chapter in great moral contrast to the previous chapter?

J.T. Yes; the previous chapter is the family chapter.

V.C.L. But in some sense is this chapter not a chapter of victory? The evil is called attention to in all its corruptness, but it seems to throw into relief the greatness of what Noah did.

J.T. Quite so; so that he is singled out in the first section we read and his history is given. It says, "This is the history of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect amongst his generations: Noah walked with God. And Noah begot three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was full of violence. And God looked upon the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way on the earth" (verses 9 - 12). And then again, in verse 14, "Make thyself an ark of gopher wood"; that is, Noah prepared an ark; God ordered him to do so to save his house. And attention is called to Noah because of his three sons; we noticed that they are mentioned at the end of chapter 5, and now they are called attention to again in chapter 6; in the midst of the corruption they are preserved. So that we can take comfort in this, that there are those that are preserved, and God helps us to preserve our children.

J.T.Jr. So we have baptism linked up with Noah in the New Testament, and also preaching. He is called a preacher of righteousness. This chapter would bring out both those thoughts, would you think?

J.T. It is good to bring that up, and the brethren are trying to keep up these matters. We are having our little preachings every Lord's day, to say the least, and besides that we keep on with baptism as maintaining the households of the saints.

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F.H.L. Would you say that there are four men and four women here who are maintaining God's thought as to man and woman? It is said of Lemech that he had two wives; but the eight persons who go through in the ark are maintaining the family idea of husband and wife.

J.T. Very good. It was in Cain's family that the two wives appeared.

Ques. Descendants of Noah's three sons have come into the assembly, have they not?

J.T. Quite so, that is the idea, that they are carried down. And I believe that the division of the world at the present time can be marked out from the sons of Noah; and especially the areas from which the assembly is drawn; that is to say, the Japheth areas. Certain parts are noted as affording material for the assembly, and that should be understood by us.

J.T.Jr. Is it from Japheth that we get the beginnings of that part of the gentile world which includes our own position here and Britain with its outgoings?

J.T. Yes, that is right. There is hardly a thing for God in Asia, and in Africa very little. It is in the element from Japheth that you get the material for the assembly.

F.H.L. And yet the idea of all men is carried through as seen in Acts 8, 9 and 10, would you not say?

J.T. Just so, the evangelisation of the eunuch would bring in Ham in chapter 8, and in chapter 9 we have Shem's line in the incoming of Saul, and the incoming of the line of Japheth is seen in the house of Cornelius in chapter 10 through Peter's ministry.

R.W.S. Japheth was the elder, was he not, indicating that the assembly was the primary thought

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in God's mind? In chapter 10 it speaks of Japheth the elder.

J.T. Exactly.

A.A.T. At the end of Matthew the disciples are told to go into all the world and make disciples. Would that be broader than the Japheth world?

J.T. Oh, well, we must make allowance for God's distinctions. It is true it says in Mark, "Go into all the world, and preach the glad tidings to all the creation"; Mark 16:15 that is quite right; but at the same time there are levitical principles governing these things as to where we are to go. You do not find in Scripture evangelisation towards Asia; you do not get it even in Paul.

J.T.Jr. That is, the Spirit came in immediately to guide them?

J.T. That is right, so that there are levitical principles governing the position.

G.H. In Romans 16 in Paul's salutation he says, "Salute Epaenetus, my beloved, who is the first-fruits of Asia for Christ", Romans 16:5.

J.T. That does not refer to the continent of Asia; that is the province of Asia. It is the continent of Asia of which we have been speaking.

V.C.L. Is there any parallel between the fewness of those that God carried through in the ark and the comparative numerical fewness of those that we can identify and have happy fellowship with today?

J.T. There must be some distinctive connection there, surely. The Spirit of God goes to the trouble of mentioning that it was eight souls, not seven, but eight.

J.H.E. The Lord says, "Fear not, little flock", Luke 12:32 does He not?

J.T. Just so, it is a word for us not to fear for "it has been the good pleasure of your Father to give you the kingdom", Luke 12:32.

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C.H.H. Would that be the thought in "Let Reuben live, and not die; and let his men be few"? Deuteronomy 33:6.

J.T. Just so; the idea is that they are easily counted I think. We were speaking recently about being able to name one another. I think that is very comforting that we are to be friends, calling the friends by name. We can do this, we can go to the different localities and call the brethren by name. We are few, of course, but at the same time there is a goodly number taking account of what there is on earth -- in this country, and in Australasia, and in Europe; there is a goodly number that God has on the earth and we can reckon them with pleasure, and find comfort in it.

D.P. Is it not a fact that in Acts 16 the Spirit of God directed Paul towards Europe? Would the Spirit have in mind to draw the greater amount of material from that area?

J.T. That is a more reduced thought, but it is the same idea as Japheth; it is in his territory, only Europe is a reduced thought. The gospel was to go to Europe: the appeal in the vision to Paul was, "Pass over into Macedonia and help us", Acts 16:9. It is a reduced thought, it is a question of grace, really, at that time. What we were talking about earlier was the whole realm of Japheth.

D.P. Yes; but I understand that the Spirit's operations are mainly in Europe and its outgoings.

J.T. But that is not as large a sphere as Japheth; Japheth is a larger thought.

M.G. From the beginning it was said that Japheth was to be enlarged.

J.T. It was. And another thing that we should have in our minds is that we are not to be on racial lines. We have already spoken of racial lines but we should not have that in our minds too much because God is not thinking of what is racial exactly, He is thinking of material for the assembly.

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J.H.E. He is calling out from among the nations.

S.C.M. It is out of every tongue, kindred, and nation, is it not?

J.T. Yes, quite.

S.C.M. I was noticing that Japheth's name means spreading, enlargement.

R.W.S. There was not any spreading in this chapter; apparently during the hundred and twenty years of Noah's preaching there was no one converted, but, of course, the ground was held and enlargement has come out later. Would it represent the patient continuance of a few going through a hundred and twenty years of crisis?

J.T. Yes; of course it comes out in Abraham who is the father of all believers, which is a great idea in the fatherly sense. We shall come to that in a later reading.

J.T.Jr. I suppose we are experiencing, in a small way, this spreading of the testimony in our city. If we have that in mind we should also be thinking of what is suitable in the way of proper meeting rooms.

J.T. We have been occupied with that for some time and I think that something will come out of it.

J.T.Jr. There is also need for considering personnel, that there might be persons in each of the meetings who can help to carry on in the way of testimony.

J.T. I have been told that it used to be asked by Mr. Stoney, when new meetings were being started, 'Who are your elders?' We need elders, persons that will look after things and see that things are done and that order is kept.

C.H.H. Would chapter 5, being an account of families, be in accord with John's teaching; whereas this, being more assembly teaching, would be Paul's line, being a matter of the house and the ark?

J.T. Very good, I would think that.

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R.H.S. You were referring to setting up meetings; would that be suggested in Titus, where Paul says, "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou mightest go on to set right what remained unordered, and establish elders in each city, as I had ordered thee"? Titus 1:5.

J.T. I think so; things are to be kept in order, too, and this calls for persons looking after things properly.

Ques. Where do young brothers fit into elderhood?

J.T. They do not fit into it, they are not elders; an elder is an elder, the word means that he is not a young brother; but at the same time the young brother has responsibility and there is much to do. And so you find that is so in Acts 5 where Ananias and Sapphira are carried out by the young men. They looked after the burial of these two persons, which would indicate that Ananias and Sapphira were christians although they came under the judgment of God.

E.A.L. Would you say that one of the most needful and important things in our localities is the matter of those who have experience with God, those who have been faithful in the course and have proven their dependence on God?

J.T. And so you have the idea of the twenty-four elders, and the four living creatures. I would connect the young brothers with the living creatures, and the elders are seen in the twenty-four; they look after things.

S.C.M. John, in his epistle, writes to the fathers, the young men, and the children. They are to go on together, are they not?

J.T. The book of Revelation helps in regard to elders and young men. The living creatures would cover the idea of young men; life must be there if they are to have any place at all.

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G.H. The fathers in John's epistle would be like the elders?

J.T. Just so.

J.T.Jr. Paul's ministry, as has been remarked, fits into this chapter; eldership and what governs the assembly (typified in the ark here) would fit in with what is going on in our cities.

D.P. Noah would have to cope with the spirit of evil that was then rampant, would he not?

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. We have a word about Jehovah's Spirit here: "My Spirit" (verse 3). Jehovah's Spirit comes into view, pleading with men. Why does that appear just now?

J.T. Does it not show, in regard to the blessed Spirit, that He is active here on earth? It gives a peculiar place to the Spirit. He is not mentioned much in this section, but He is here and He is mentioned in the first chapter also; and then undoubtedly He is in mind in the mention of the dove later on, showing the great place the Spirit has in these chapters.

C.A.M. In referring to Noah's preaching, it says that it was the Spirit of Christ that preached to these people, does it not?

J.T. Just so, Peter alludes to that.

C.A.M. Do you not think that we should be encouraged with regard to the gospel in connection with the Spirit?

J.T. And the fewness of those secured too, for they are mentioned in that passage: "into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved", 1 Peter 3:20. "Eight souls"; so that I think we should be encouraged in that with which we are going on. The Lord is helping us, I think; we are very small, of course, but still the Lord is helping us and it is in keeping with what we have here. There was very little done here although

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the Spirit of God was pleading. There was very little in the sense of results, but there were eight souls anyway.

J.T.Jr. However, the idea of building has gone on, has it not, in the recovery? Since the recovery of the truth it has been the building. Things have been built up locally amongst us and the Spirit has had His part in all that.

G.H. It says of Noah that he was moved with fear, and that he "prepared an ark for the saving of his house", Hebrews 11:7. Is that an important feature today?

J.T. It is; the fear of God, that is the fear that made him prepare the ark for the saving of his house.

R.W.S. How familiar he seems to be with the dove! Could I just read that passage in chapter eight? It says, "And he sent out the raven, which went forth going to and fro, until the waters were dried from the earth. And he sent out the dove from him, to see if the waters had become low on the ground. But the dove found no resting-place for the sole of her foot, and returned to him into the ark; for the waters were on the whole earth; and he put forth his hand, and took her, and brought her to him into the ark. And he waited yet other seven days, and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark. And the dove came to him at eventide; and behold, in her beak was an olive-leaf plucked off; and Noah knew that the waters had become low on the earth. And he waited yet other seven days, and sent forth the dove; but she returned no more to him", Genesis 8:7 - 12.

J.T. That she returned no more, would, I suppose, point to the millennial day; then the Spirit will be free; -- there will be no need of the assembly here as the habitation or sphere of the Spirit. The Spirit will be free to act. I think the allusion would be to the millennial day and the freedom the Spirit will

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have. The dove is not under restraint, there is no restraint there.

R.W.S. So that the Spirit will be here in a certain sense, in the millennial day?

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. The presence of Noah here in this chapter did not stop the evil; indeed it became worse. In fact, after reference to Noah in this chapter we read that God says, "The end of all flesh is come before me".

J.T. Just so, and God is going to deal with it although He was showing that He was giving man a long opportunity, a hundred and twenty years; but the judgment was coming, it was inevitable. When Noah entered into the ark the flood came, it says.

Rem. So that the saints while here are holding back the judgment, but in the end it will come.

J.T. Just so; it is a certainty, and the book of Revelation points to it. There is great importance attached to judgment, especially at the end of the Bible.

W.W.M. In the street preachings we may have a sense that the Spirit of God is not operating among men generally. God says, "My Spirit shall not always plead with Man", and the foot-note says, 'plead in (or amongst) men'. But we preach in view of sending out the testimony and hoping to bring to light someone that is affected by it; but in general men in the mass are pretty much in the condition of which we read in this chapter.

J.T. That is so, there is very little interest. I believe in keeping largely to the meeting rooms because there is room for the Spirit in the meeting rooms; the brethren are there, the young people are there, and there is some room for the Spirit in the meeting room. Of course if we raise the question of the street preaching, it is good and well; and if young brothers are able to do it, let them do it;

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God will bless them. But I believe in the main in holding to the meeting rooms because the Spirit of God has something there that is more congenial to Him than in the street. There is some restriction, or whatever it may be, that is from God.

W.W.M. So that if a person comes to the gospel preaching in the room it is more likely he would be helped there than anywhere else because the Spirit of God would be free there.

J.T. And the brethren can get round him and talk to him.

A.N.W. The Lord brings that out strikingly in Luke 15, that while the sheep is sought and found in the wilderness, the piece of money is in the house; and the woman says, "I have found the piece which I had lost", Luke 15:9 which seems to have a direct allusion to the Spirit Himself.

J.T. It is an allusion, I am sure. It is a woman that sweeps the house; it is done with womanly care, and it is to find the lost piece.

T.E.H. I have often heard it said that a young brother should start preaching in the open air first. Is that correct?

J.T. That is where I started, here in New York city. I would recommend to every young brother to go out in the street; but then let the preaching go on in the rooms too, because you get more power and protection in testimony in the rooms.

A.R. Is there salvation in our rooms?

J.T. Well, there is some protection, especially if the brothers and the sisters attend the meetings well and stay around after the preaching and talk to those that are there, to young people and others who need care.

Rem. The persons who were saved in the ark not only came to Noah but they came into the ark; and I thought it should be the concern of the

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preachers, not only to win souls to Christ, but to seek to bring them into the assembly.

Ques. Would you encourage persons to stay after the preaching? That is not forcing them, is it?

J.T. No; they have come there and you are assuming that they have come voluntarily and that there is some interest in them. That makes a great difference; you cannot assume that on the street.

A.B.P. It was after the preaching that the Lord spoke with Simon in Luke 5. He was told to launch out into the deep after the preaching was over.

Ques. Is it not a question of love for souls? If there is love for souls one would take every opportunity whether on the streets or elsewhere to try and bring them to Christ.

J.T. Oh, quite so; but then we are speaking about the meeting rooms, and we ought to look for some results. There is protection in some sense for those who come into the meeting rooms. These things are not to be spoken of lightly.

C.H.H. It was necessary to be in the ark to take account of the animals. I suppose each of them would suggest some feature of God's work which could only be seen in the ark.

J.T. Quite so, very good. Another thing that we have to realise is that there were no children amongst those that were saved. It was not a time for children at all, it was for full grown persons, for, whether in Noah's house or in those of his sons, everyone was full-grown.

C.F.E. Does that convey God's thoughts manward?

J.T. That is right; in this particular phase of the testimony you look for full-grown persons.

V.C.L. Methuselah apparently died in the very year of the flood; he was not carried over; but Noah, who had found favour with God, would set out the

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idea of the full knowledge of God in some distinct way.

J.T. He was a full grown man, the full idea of manhood is seen in Noah; it is a question too of his righteousness.

A.E.W. The suggestion of his being perfect seems to be the first introduction of that thought in Scripture; "Noah was a just man, perfect amongst his generations". I would like to understand a little more as to his character.

J.T. It is a question of having the senses exercised; a man is made perfect by the use of his senses, by learning to discern between good and evil. That is the idea. I think Noah was a man of that character; he had his senses exercised to discern between good and evil.

A.N.W. There is a reference in the footnote about the word "generations" in verse 9: "This is the history of Noah. Noah was ... perfect amongst his generations". The note says that "amongst his generations" refers to his contemporaries. He had a right setting in relation to his contemporaries, and walked with God in it.

C.H.H. Is that why he is spoken of as the "eighth"? Is that according to generation? According to history he was the tenth, was he not? Why would Peter say that he was the eighth, or one of eight?

J.T. Oh, I think that it is that he was one of eight instead of being one of ten or twelve; there were only eight souls in his house.

Ques. Were Noah's sons converted?

J.T. I would take them to be converted, to represent the idea that they were saved in his house.

R.H.S. I would like to ask you about Jehovah repenting, whether a similar feature is seen in Hosea where it speaks of Ephraim mixing himself with the peoples (chapter 7: 8). God proposes to bring judgment

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upon them; but then in chapter 11 He says: "My repentings are kindled together. I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger ... for I am God, and not man", Hosea 11:8. Does that suggest that as God, speaking reverently, He can change His mind?

J.T. Just so, He can change His mind. It says here that it grieved Him at His heart that they went on in such a course. The word 'grief' is used in connection with divine Persons, as with the Holy Spirit; we may grieve the Holy Spirit. So that God may change His mind. It grieved Him at His heart that He had made man. He said that He would destroy him, but nevertheless He kept on with the idea of man; He did not abandon His thought. Therefore a divine Person became Man so that the whole idea might be maintained.

A.B.P. It says that Jehovah shut Noah into the ark. Is there some point in connection with that?

J.T. It shows how wonderfully God is concerned about this man Noah, how much He thought of him. He Himself shut him in; He made sure that he was protected. It is very beautiful I think to get that touch of God's interest in His people, in this case of Noah and his house.

A.B.P. Would the same feelings enter into the sealing of the Spirit?

J.T. Pretty much. You get first the anointing, then the sealing, then the earnest of the Spirit; there are those three things. God shutting Noah into the ark Himself showed the gracious consideration He had for him.

F.H.L. Does the pitch put within and without carry the thought of atonement, which would be in line with the counsels of God?

J.T. That is good. The pitch would make it secure from leakage; security was assured to Noah.

W.W.M. As we look at the degraded position of mankind today with such low morality among men,

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should it not be a great encouragement to us that after God had spoken of repenting that He had made man, it says, "But Noah found favour in the eyes of Jehovah"? That would mean that God finds pleasure in those that are responding to His love, moving in the right way.

J.T. Noah, I would say, was qualifying for headship. A great matter was put into his hands and he was qualifying for it. He found favour in the eyes of the Lord.

A.J.B. Would there be any reference to Noah's headship in the fact that it says of the creatures, "And they went to Noah"? And then again, "They that came, came male and female". Is there something of the attractiveness of Christ there; or would it suggest attractiveness in the saints?

J.T. I think the attractiveness is in Noah, really. They came to him: "And they went to Noah, into the ark, two and two of all flesh"; and again, "They that came, came male and female of all flesh". They came, showing that he was attractive. I think that is what is meant, that he is qualifying for headship. The thought runs right through the chapter.

J.C. Would Noah and his family be a type of the whole christian company being carried through the waters of death?

J.T. Very likely, I would say that.

J.C. What about the smallness of the company of only eight souls as compared with the great work of christianity today? I suppose there are comparatively few, as compared to all in the world, who will be carried through the waters of judgment. But what about the animals? What do they represent?

J.T. They represent something of God I would think; these creatures that came into the ark would represent some feature of the work of God. We just have to accept the smallness of things. We have been going on with these little meetings for some

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fifty years, or so, in this city, and there is very little result; but still there has been result. There are still brethren coming into fellowship, coming into the assembly, and that is worth while. And these creatures represent life in some sense, what the work of God is in some sense.

S.W. Does it not stimulate us to know that the assembly is going through? And would you say a word about the dimensions of the ark? It was not left to Noah to say what they were to be.

J.T. It was quite a large vessel, three hundred cubits, about four hundred and fifty feet I would say, showing how large the divine thoughts were, that there should be abundant salvation, plenty of room, not only for the men but for the animals as well.

S.W. Here we have only three dimensions, length, breadth, and height, but in Ephesians we have the fourth dimension.

J.T. Three would be the proper creational dimension; four is beyond that, it is an extra dimension; the fourth dimension is scientifically known to be that.

D.P. Noah did not appear to have a pattern for the ark?

J.T. God gave him the pattern. It is like the tabernacle, it was God-given.

W.W.M. There was only one window in the ark, apparently, and that was at the top, so they had to be looking up all the time.

J.T. Quite so, and it is good experience to be looking up. The Psalms, the Songs of degrees, speak about this very thing.

L.W. Would the pitch be in evidence today?

J.T. Yes; it is to keep out evil, to protect us from what is bad; it prevents leakage and the intrusion of what would damage us. The thing is intact.

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S.C.M. Our households are to be kept in the same way, just as Moses was safe in the ark of reeds?

J.T. Just so, it keeps out the evil from our families.

Ques. Is the ark also a type of the Lord Jesus? We were quoting from Peter, "which figure also now saves you, even baptism", 1 Peter 3:21. We have been saying that the ark is a type of the assembly, which I think I see, but is it not also a type of Christ? This passage deals with the judgment of God and no one could bear it but He alone.

J.T. Quite so, it could be used in that sense; but it is more accurate to speak of it as the assembly or the house of God where there is protection for souls.

A.R. You have referred to it as to those that were saved at the end of Acts 2, those that were added to the assembly.

J.H.E. So salvation is in the assembly, in that sense, where our children are protected and cared for from the evil of the world around.

J.T. It says the Lord added to the assembly "those that were to be saved", Acts 2:47.

A.B.P. Would the features of life which go through in the ark for the filling out of the new world suggest that in the assembly at the present time the whole truth of God is being preserved; so that Israel will come into possession of what has been held intact?

J.T. That is very good; there is much truth in that to be looked into, what is carried over in view of the millennial day.

Ques. Noah was to take the creatures into the ark, it says in verse 19, "to keep them alive with thee", Genesis 6:19. I was thinking that is really what Paul did in the shipwreck. The souls were given to him and he has kept them alive, would you say?

J.T. Yes, I would.

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G.H. It is beautiful how God takes such care of His servants. It says about Noah that "Jehovah shut him in"; and in connection with Moses that Jehovah Himself buried Moses. He took care of him Himself.

J.T. Very good; He buried Moses and He shut Noah in. And He is acting for us now too, for young people especially.

V.C.L. While nothing is said about the faith of Noah's sons and daughters, nevertheless God told Noah to take them with him into the ark. Everything depended upon Noah.

J.T. That is so.

A.R. Do we get a happy result in chapter 8? It says, "And Noah built an altar to Jehovah; and took of every clean animal, and of all clean fowl, and offered up burnt-offerings on the altar. And Jehovah smelled the sweet odour", Genesis 8:20 - 21.

J.T. It shows that Noah went all the way with what was to be done. It would seem that he went beyond what he was directed to do.

Rem. In this chapter it says, "The end of all flesh is come before me". I was wondering if baptism is the way we come to it; that is, we bring in baptism into our houses and maintain the truth of it in ourselves.

J.T. That is right.

A.B.P. Are we to understand that this all flows out of the faithfulness of one man? Is the point in our reading tonight to emphasize the possibilities there are if one person is walking according to the will of God?

J.T. Yes; how much is made of Noah in the prophets! Much is made of him, and of Job and of Daniel, but we are told that they can only save themselves under certain conditions, showing that as members of the household we have to take heed to ourselves under these conditions. You cannot rely

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on the righteousness of a father or a mother, you have to take heed to yourself. The prophets teach us on these points.

A.B.P. But would not our scripture this evening encourage every householder to act in faith for the preservation of his house? Would not each of us who are householders be stimulated by this principle to hold our households?

J.T. Yes indeed; but another thing I am referring to is what these men are in themselves: Job, Noah and Daniel. When things were not right one of these men could save the testimony himself; the testimony is bound up with himself. According to Ezekiel 14, the prophet looks after himself and looks after the testimony. Even if his house is not right the prophet looks after the testimony.

A.D. At the beginning of chapter 8 it says, "And God remembered Noah, and all the animals, and all the cattle that were with him in the ark", Genesis 8:1. He was the faithful one; it does not mention his sons or his sons' wives.

J.T. It is just what we have been saying, that one man can stand for the testimony; one prophet such as Noah or Job or Daniel can preserve the testimony even if his house is not right.

Rem. David said, "Although my house be not so"; 2 Samuel 23:5 he would serve Jehovah.

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. Perhaps that is conveyed in the statement at the end of verse 23, "And Noah alone remained, and what was with him in the ark". It is interesting the way that is put, "what was with him in the ark". He stands, and whatever is linked with him is preserved..

J.T. That is one point I thought that we should not leave out, as to what can be done by one man, even though his house is not right, only himself.

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There are such cases as that. One man can preserve the testimony.

S.W. Would not this chapter show too the God-given ability to man to carry out and maintain instructions given him?

J.T. It would. God says to him, "Thee have I seen"; God has His eye on Noah.

Ques. In view of what you have been saying as to one man, it has been said in times past that if a man did not have his household right he was disqualified to exercise oversight in the assembly. Is that right?

J.T. That is true too; at the same time though his house be not right, he can preserve the thing himself. That is what the prophets teach, that certain righteous persons can preserve the testimony themselves even if their families may not be preserved, showing the value of a godly man, a righteous man. That is the point of it.

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MAN (4)

Genesis 12:1 - 3; Genesis 14:14 - 24; Genesis 15:1 - 7; Genesis 17:1 - 14

J.T. The many references made to Abraham in these scriptures are to be noted, reminding us that he is the father of us all, of all humanity; that it is not Adam who is the father of us all, but Abraham. The Lord said of him, "Your father Abraham exulted in that he should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced", John 8:56. He is the father of us all.

G.H. What is involved in that expression: The father of us all?

J.T. All believers, all of us. We have read from Genesis 12 to bring out his call, as it is said, "And Jehovah had said to Abram, Go out of thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to the land that I will shew thee. And I will make of thee a great nation, and bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. And Abram departed as Jehovah had said to him. And Lot went with him". It might be just as well to call attention to Lot, as to whether Abram made a right choice in taking his nephew with him, for eventually he left him and had to be rescued from his captors.

S.W. Would you say that there were potentialities in Abram that would lead God to select him?

J.T. Oh clearly; He knew him. God says, "I know him". It is a peculiar thing; it is rarely that you get such an expression. Jehovah said, "I know him that he will command his children and his household after him", Genesis 18:19.

C.F.E. He was marked by obedience, was he not?

J.T. Quite so, that is just the point, he was marked by obedience.

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C.A.M. As to manhood, you are looking at Abraham, are you not, as to origin? Do you mean there was origin in him? You were contrasting him with Adam?

J.T. Well, I think that is true; he is the father of us all so he must be the head.

A.R. Is that not the point in the verses which we have read: "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed"?

J.T. That is the indication of what he is in the mind of God. All families of the earth are to be blessed. And not only is he the father of them all, but they are blessed in him.

Ques. What is in view in "all families"?

J.T. It says, "In thee shall all families of the earth be blessed". Well now, we have to contrast that passage with a passage in Ephesians 3 in which Paul says, "I bow my knees to the Father ... of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named", Ephesians 3:14,15. So that there you get a contrast. It is just the earth that is blessed in Abraham, but from God Himself it is every family in the heavens and on the earth that is blessed; God is the Blesser of them all.

Ques. Would the fact that the Lord Jesus refers to certain ones as a son of Abraham and a daughter of Abraham confirm that the beginning is with Abraham?

J.T. These two are mentioned in the gospel of Luke; it is characteristic.

R.W.S. Does the early part of Genesis 11 indicate the dishonour that had come upon men following on Babel where God confounded their language and scattered them? It says in verse 9, "And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth", Genesis 11:9. Is that a sort of background to what He is about to secure in Abraham and his family?

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J.T. The chapter begins, "And the whole earth had one language, and the same words" Genesis 11:1 and then it proceeds in verse 6, "Behold, the people is one, and have all one language; and this have they begun to do. And now will they be hindered in nothing that they meditate doing. Come, let us go down, and there confound their language", Genesis 11:6,7. That is to say, it was a combination, not of God nor divinely designed; it was a great combination and they would do great things. They had said, "Come on, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and they had asphalt for mortar. And they said, Come on, let us build ourselves a city and a tower: the top of which may reach to the heavens; and let us make ourselves a name", Genesis 11:3,4. It was not God's name they had in mind, but their own name.

R.W.S. The devil would dishonour manhood; but God is now about to honour it in calling Abram alone and blessing him.

J.T. Quite so; it says in Isaiah 51:2, "I called him when he wag alone, and blessed him".

S.C.M. Does sovereignty enter into this?

J.T. Clearly; it is a question of God selecting a man that He knew. He says, "I know him"; he was a man that would command his household and his children, those coming after him. It is a great matter that our children should be brought up rightly so that they may reflect God and set forth the truth in their walk.

A.N.W. The prophet is addressing those that follow after righteousness in that passage in Isaiah; he says, "Ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek Jehovah: look unto the rock whence ye were hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye were digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bore you", Isaiah 51:1,2.

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J.T. So that the father and mother are in mind, you mean?

A.N.W. Yes; I thought that faith saw with God there, as to the father and mother.

A.Macd. Is there any link with the fact that Stephen in his address begins with the God of glory appearing to Abraham?

J.T. Beautiful! It is a beautiful passage, ending in his own martyrdom as he says, "I behold the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", Acts 7:56. It is a very beautiful passage and one that ought to have been mentioned at the very beginning of our reading. What else had you in mind?

A.Macd. I was only bringing it in to support what you were saying, the importance Abraham has in connection with manhood.

J.T. So that the Lord speaks of him in the passage as to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sitting down in the kingdom in the millennium.

J.T.Jr. The glory being brought in in that chapter would fit in with what you have in mind in regard to manhood, man in relation to glory.

J.T. Just so; surely God had Christ in mind in all that we are saying, that He was to become Man, He was to take man's place.

V.C.L. While sovereignty comes into it, is there not the feature of nazariteship worked out in the fact that Abraham separated himself and went out according to God's word?

J.T. He delayed a bit, of course; that has to be recognized. Stephen tells us that, but still he came to the mind of God and went out. Eventually he did what he was told to do. It is a great matter that we carry out the will of God even though we delay in doing it.

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G.V.D. The record in Hebrews is that, being called, he obeyed to go out. I was wondering if the opening of 1 Corinthians in which the apostle addresses them as called saints, or saints by divine calling, "with all that in every place call on the name", 1 Corinthians 1:2 would bring us in with Abraham on this line of being called out?

J.T. Quite so. And he is called "believing Abraham", Galatians 3:9 that is to say he is the man of faith. Faith largely began with him, you might say; he was marked by faith. The expression "believing Abraham" is characteristic.

A.B.P. Is his life as a pilgrim and a stranger intended to be exemplary for the believer?

J.T. Just so. He looked for a city too, which had foundations, whose builder and maker is God. He linked himself up with God in the idea of foundations.

Rem. Abraham answered to what Jehovah said to him. Is that the outcome with a man who has faith?

J.T. Just so, it is the obedience of faith, that is the point in Romans; "for obedience of faith to all the nations", Romans 16:26. There is no christianity without faith, no christianity at all without faith. It is founded in faith.

D.P. Do moral conditions underlie sovereign choice?

J.T. Well, they must agree, of course. God takes us up on the principle of new birth; in the new birth there is a wholly new beginning in man, a wholly new beginning. And of course Abraham would have to come into that too, although it is not specified; but he would have to come into that as did all the other believers that are mentioned in Hebrews 11. "By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God", Hebrews 11:3. It is a question of faith.

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A.R. It says in Galatians that the dispensation in which we are is one of faith. Does Abraham antedate our dispensation?

J.T. No, he does not; our dispensation is the greatest of all dispensations. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself has inaugurated it; and so the apostles were ordained in view of it, in view of the gospel; it says, "First, Simon", Matthew 10:2 he was the first one, the leader, and he is the first one to preach the gospel.

E.A.L. What is the idea of the land being mentioned first: "Go out of thy land"? Is that over against "the land that I will shew thee"? Is it to stress that?

J.T. It says, "And Jehovah had said to Abram, Go out of thy land, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, to the land that I will shew thee". The land of Canaan was in mind, and Abram was to come into it; that is what is in mind in all this. But in order to pursue our subject we must proceed to chapter 14 which relates to the war of the kings; what comes out as to Abraham in that chapter should now be considered. It says in the 18th verse of chapter 13, "Then Abram moved his tents, and came and dwelt by the oaks of Mamre, which are in Hebron", Genesis 13:18. It is pre-eminently the idea of the land; Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt; "And he built there an altar to Jehovah". Then it goes on to speak of a conflict that had to be entered upon by Abram and certain allies that we are told of in verse 13 and that "Abram heard that his brother was taken captive", Genesis 14:13. A point that we should consider now is whether we are able to deliver people that have been taken captive by sin or any other influence; whether we are able to deliver them, or whether they are hindered from being in the full thought of the truth of the assembly because they are captive. So that it says, "And Abram heard that his brother was taken captive; and he led out his trained servants, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them as far as Dan".

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That is, he was ready for an emergency, to deliver his brother.

A.B.P. This is urgently needed in our current city exercises.

J.T. Many have been led away, they have to be delivered; is that in your mind?

A.B.P. Yes, cases that are currently in the exercises of the brethren. We need help on how to rescue our brethren.

A.A.T. What are the trained servants in christianity?

J.T. Those that are trained can enter on warfare, they can skilfully enter on warfare. They must be taught, that is to say, taught to contend for the truth once delivered to the saints. But that is the idea: contend for it!

J.H.E. True manhood is seen here; he was willing to lay down his life.

J.T. That is quite right and he was skilful; it says, "And he divided himself against them by night, he and his servants, and smote them, and pursued them as far as Hobah, which is to the left of Damascus. And he brought back all the property, and brought again his brother Lot and his property"; notice that, "his brother Lot and his property". "And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after he had returned from smiting Chedorlaomer, and the kings that were with him, into the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's valley. And Melchisedec king of Salem brought out bread and wine. And he was priest of the Most High God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth. And blessed be the Most High God, who has delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him the tenth of all. And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the souls, and take the property for thyself. And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah, the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth, if from a thread even to a sandal-thong, yes, if of all that is thine, I take anything ... ; that thou mayest not say, I have made Abram rich; save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men that went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre, let them take their portion".

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That is to say, he, Abram, would not be indebted to the world for anything.

A.B.P. Is it not of interest that the word "enemies" occurs here for the first time in Scripture?

J.T. That is interesting.

F.H.L. And the word "priest" too. I suppose that after the conflict the test comes as to the world's glory, and then the priest of the Most High God comes in.

J.T. It is encouraging to me to hear all this. Will you enlarge upon what you have said.

F.H.L. What has just been said as to enemies is striking, and then God brings His priest to light at the critical moment in Abram's history when it is a question whether the man of faith will succumb to the enemy or whether he will be maintained in his relations with God.

A.N.W. I was struck as you re-read those verses how the relation is changed from the "brother's son" to the "brother" with respect to Lot. Does that enforce the obligation upon us to deliver, as has been said? It is a closer link, the word "brother" seems to enforce the obligation. Abram took him out as his brother's son, but now it is his brother.

J.T. To be called a brother is greater, he is raised, really; it is a greater thing to be a brother than a nephew.

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F.W. Is this the defence of the truth for the truth's sake so that all may be benefited by it? I was thinking of our own dispensation, that the truth was lost sight of and persons were in darkness; and then God came in in His sovereignty and raised up men who were prepared to stand for the truth. They rescued the truth, as it were, that all might be benefited by it.

J.T. Quite so; tell us of some of those men who were used in that way.

F.W. Well, amongst others, I was thinking of Luther.

J.T. Very good, and of course you go back to Paul, and Peter who was the first preacher of the gospel. He was one of the twelve.

F.W. Would there be what answers to that idea in Abram here? In connection with the conflict for the truth, after darkness had supervened, it needed the power of God to come in and raise this conflict. The truth was opposed and there were men who were prepared to stand for it; and when they did stand for it souls found the truth available to them so that they might be blessed. Lot was in that position, was he not, but he did not get the full benefit of it.

J.T. I think it is well to begin at the beginning as to anything we are considering, and the conflict entering into christianity really began with Peter. I mean to say he was the first apostle. Of course the Lord Jesus began the conflict, but now we are dealing with His servants and what they are capable of. And so I think Peter stood his ground well in Acts 2; and then in chapter 3, how he speaks about the prophets, every one of them, as bearing witness!

F.N.W. Do Peter and Paul represent conflict in a spiritual position, as Abram does in moving to Hebron?

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J.T. Very good, in a spiritual position; and, in figure, his servants could not be trained servants if they were not spiritual; Abram's servants were trained, three hundred and eighteen of them. But Peter, of course, was a trained servant of Christ, and he preached the gospel wonderfully in Acts 2, and then in chapter 3 as showing how all the prophets came into it.

A.B.P. Is it of interest that these persons became enemies to Abram because they had taken Lot captive? There was no direct act against Abram.

J.T. It was a question of the brother, you mean, of rescuing the brother.

A.B.P. I wonder if this does not help us to take account of things that are against the testimony? Persons may not be against us personally for us to regard them as enemies; if they are against Christ and against the truth they are our enemies.

J.T.Jr. The crisis brought out the things Abram had. If there is a crisis or anything difficult it should bring out what there is amongst us.

J.T. What there is amongst us, what we have, whether brothers or sisters. And it is well to notice that both are taken account of in the matter of conflict. We are now dealing with the conflict, and the occasion of it was Lot, Abram's nephew, but regarded as a brother. He did not go after him because he was his nephew, but because he was a brother.

Ques. What is the thought of the servants being born in his house?

J.T. That shows that he was a man of influence and means; people cannot have a household like this and have servants born in it without having means. If we transfer the idea of means, it is what is spiritual, whether we have those that will go out and suffer for the sake of the brother. That is the idea.

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Ques. Is there any thought in it as to being brought up in the truth? Would that enter into it?

J.T. It would, surely.

A.R. Abram's allies are spoken of in verse 13. There is a footnote which says it means 'masters of covenant'.

J.T. That is the idea, there is an honourable link with his allies, they were masters of covenant. And we have come into covenant; in the Lord's supper we have come into covenant.

J.T.Jr. So the idea of being born in the house would perhaps link on with what we were saying yesterday as to Ecclesiastes and the time of one's birth; that is, the idea of birth here would suggest other things, I suppose, as to our origin.

J.T. So we have to come back to the idea of new birth; it is not the natural birth, it is the new one -- "anew", it means 'entirely afresh'. Really what is meant is born throughout, from the top to the bottom; the whole matter in the believer has to be dealt with anew, from top to bottom.

V.C.L. And then does not the matter of training involve the suggestion of command which marks Abram in a later chapter as to commanding his household? Would that not mean now that we come under the authority of the truth and the power of the Spirit to be trained?

J.T. I would say that. Abram's family would be marked by this, and we are all Abram's children; therefore the whole matter should be brought up as to whether we are really born anew, from the top to the bottom.

C.A.M. It is remarkable, is it not, that it says that he "led" them; he led out his trained servants. As we think of one another with this spiritual origin and history we have only one will, I mean we are not governed by our own wills, we are led.

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J.T. We have to have leaders; he led them out. They were not only his trained servants but he led them. So that the word is, "leaders led in Israel", Judges 5:2. Alas! there are few; there is a great lack of leaders in every department, spiritually, a great lack. And so Deborah says, "For that leaders led in Israel, ... Bless Jehovah", Judges 5:2.

A.T.D. Abram qualified because he obeyed to go out.

J.T. That is so, he obeyed to start with, there was proper subjection to start with. Hebrews 11 would show that faith is the basis of all.

D.P. Would this military side be seen in Paul putting forward Timothy at Corinth, and Titus at Crete?

J.T. Just so. He speaks much of both; they were, you might say, his trained servants; Timothy and Titus are different from any other servants because they are subordinate to Paul. They are not like John or the others, they are subordinate to Paul; and so Abram comes in as leader on that line.

Rem. Romans 16 gives us a good list of trained servants, both sisters and brothers.

J.T. Very good. It begins, "But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea; that ye may receive her in the Lord worthily of saints, and that ye may assist her in whatever matter she has need of you; for she also has been a helper of many, and of myself", Romans 16:1,2. And then a long list follows. They were all trained servants, all these men and women, and Paul regarded them in that light. And that is the question for us now, and for the young people here, to be subject to their elders and ready to do things.

Ques. Would this principle be seen in relation to Joshua who got his training under Moses? Then in Numbers 27:15 - 17 when Moses was looking for

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a man who could lead out the assembly and bring them in, Jehovah told him to take Joshua, a man in whom was the Spirit.

J.T. Just so, will you kindly read the passage?

Rem. "And Moses spoke to Jehovah, saying, Let Jehovah, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the assembly, who may go out before them, and who may come in before them, and who may lead them out, and who may bring them in", Numbers 27:15 - 17

J.T. "Lead them out, and ... bring them in", that is the idea; do not let them be scattered, drawn into the world in the meantime; bring them back again.

A.B.P. Would the principle of care and training and authority be seen pre-eminently in the Lord in the way He developed the disciples for their apostleship? I have in mind the generality of His dealings with them, the way He could say at the end, "When I sent you ... lacked ye anything?" Luke 22:35 as though the spirit of fatherhood was with Him as well as that of authority in rebuking, if need be, as He was training them in view of their service.

J.T. They came under His tuition; He was the Leader in everything, as Paul says: "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ", 1 Corinthians 11:1.

J.T.Jr. So the Lord says to Peter and John, "I will make you fishers of men"; Matthew 4:19. I will make you that.

J.T. That is, they are not simply to be trained, but He says, "I will make you fishers of men". And there were many besides the twelve.

F.N.W. As in Luke 10, "Now after these things the Lord appointed seventy others also", Luke 10:1.

J.T. That is just the verse I was thinking of.

F.N.W. And such persons had their names written in heaven.

A.N.W. And of the twelve themselves it says in chapter 9, "And having called together the twelve, he gave them power and authority over all demons", Luke 9:1

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G.H. It speaks of certain ones who were in the school of Tyrannus for about three years. Would that fit in here as suggestive of training?

J.T. Very good, the school of Tyrannus. You might say that it is the idea of a tyrant, but young people need to be brought under the rule of a dominating man so that they may be subdued and trained.

A.R. Do we see the evidence of skilful training in the way the writer of the epistle to the Hebrews brings forward Melchisedec? He was a mysterious man, having neither father nor mother, beginning of days, nor end of life, and likened unto the Son of God.

J.T. That is the person you get here, who says, "And blessed be the Most High God, who has delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him the tenth of all. And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the souls, and take the property for thyself". That was a misleading thought: "Give me the souls, and take the property for thyself"; that is, the souls would be persons; property is not persons, property is nothing to be compared with persons. And that is what the king of Sodom wanted Abram to take, but Abram would not admit of that at all, he would not take anything from the world.

A.R. Do you think Melchisedec helped him to give this answer to the king of Sodom?

J.T. I should think so. And now I think we should get on to the idea of "the word" in chapter 15. This is the first mention of "the word" in the Bible. "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord Jehovah, what wilt thou give me? seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus. And Abram said, Lo, to me thou hast given no seed, and behold, a son of my house will be mine heir. And behold, the word of Jehovah came to him, saying, This shall not be thine heir, but he that will come forth out of thy body shall be thine heir. And he led him out, and said, Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them. And he said to him, So shall thy seed be! And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness".

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That is one of the great things as to Abraham being our father, that he is righteous. So that you have, "So shall thy seed be! And he believed Jehovah; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness". It was reckoned righteousness, the great principle of righteousness being reckoned to a person. And that is where Abraham came into the great feature of his life; it was reckoned to him as righteousness that he believed God; he was Abraham the believer.

F.H.L. So that the apostle speaking to the Galatians says again, "So that they who are on the principle of faith are blessed with believing Abraham", Galatians 3:19.

J.T. "Believing Abraham"! Beautiful passage!

A.B.P. Romans 10 says, "Faith then is by a report, but the report by God's word", Romans 10:17.

J.T. That is how faith comes; a very great point in Romans, how faith comes; it is the gift of God, but it comes by God's word; it is the word of God that is the idea, leading up to faith.

E.A.L. Had Abraham really gotten the victory over the world in this chapter? In 1 John 5 we have, "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith", 1 John 5:4.

J.T. That is a passage that ought to be enlarged on: "our faith", not simply faith by itself, but "our faith", what a christian really has.

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Ques. And another passage in Romans 4 speaks of "those also who walk in the steps of the faith ... of our father Abraham", Romans 4:12. That would be the way Abraham walked; is that it?

J.T. Just so, "in the steps of the faith", one after the other.

R.W.S. When he says, in verse 8, "How shall I know?" that is not an evidence of the lack of faith, is it?

J.T. No; and God tells him what to do that he may know. He says to him, "Take me a heifer of three years old, and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon". Notice the age, full maturity, the age of three; these were the ones he was to take. But then Jehovah tells him what to do; he has now to be fully in faith in what he is doing. The word of God is the point.

A.R. Do the female animals being brought forward indicate that Abraham should be in correspondence with them?

J.T. Quite so. He said to God, "Lord Jehovah, how shall I know?" That is a beautiful enquiry, "How shall I know?", and he makes that enquiry of Jehovah Himself. In verse 1 it says, "After these things the word of Jehovah came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward". That is how God is introduced, He introduces Himself to Abram. He says that He is a shield to him; yet Abram says that He has given him nothing. But presently he comes to the point of the whole matter, he says to Jehovah, "How shall I know?" and Jehovah tells him how to know; He directs him to take these animals. "Take me a heifer of three years old", that is the first thing, "and a she-goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtle-dove, and a young pigeon". The ages of the turtle-dove

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and of the pigeon are not mentioned, but it is a question of the creatures; they are to be prolific in order to produce what is needed. That is the idea of the whole passage.

R.H.S. Have you any thought why this first mention of the word of God should take the form of a committal on the part of Jehovah toward Abram?

J.T. It is God doing it in His grace.

A.E.W. Is it not clear that God intends to support this kind of man from heaven, support him from Himself?

J.T. This kind of man, that is the idea; not Adam but Abraham.

A.E.W. In the previous chapter Abram spurned receiving anything from the king of Sodom; but here he receives much. There is the thought of the "word" that you have mentioned, and then the idea of the shield and the exceeding great reward, and then the thought of the seed, and even the thought of righteousness being reckoned. It is all from God's side, He would support him on that basis.

J.T. Just so, so that he is called Abraham the believer. What a beautiful title, believing Abraham!

A.A.T. I notice that Abram got that word in a vision. Does the word come to us today in a ministry meeting?

J.T. Well, if you got something like that from God it would be worth speaking about! Did you ever get something like this? You must get a word from God if you are going to give it out to the saints, you must get something from God.

L.W. Is the heavenly company in view in the verse 5? "Look now toward the heavens, and number the stars, if thou be able to number them".

J.T. The stars represent a heavenly thought. Abram is not said to have any generations, it is a

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remarkable thing. Although he is a wonderful man he is not said to have any generations, it is what he is in himself, and that is from heaven. He is ministered to from heaven.

Ques. In chapter 13 Jehovah says that his seed is to be as the dust of the earth. Here in chapter 15 it is as the stars of heaven. In between these chapters Melchisedec has come in; has that any connection between these two?

J.T. Well, quite, there must be something to that in relation to heaven because Melchisedec was the priest of the Most High God. That is his title in this book and in the book of Hebrews.

A.B.P. Did you suggest that there is the idea of multiplication in these female offerings?

J.T. Of course the heifer is a female, that is the first creature mentioned; a heifer peculiarly represents love, affection. Then the two last creatures are said to be a turtle-dove and a young pigeon; there the ages are not mentioned.

A.B.P. The first two are female, the heifer and the she-goat. I thought you were connecting that with the idea of multiplication.

J.T. With fruitfulness, quite so.

T.E.H. As is the heavenly One so also are the heavenly ones. That would be fruitfulness.

R.W.S. In our reading tonight are not features of this order of manhood taking form in our minds? We have the thoughts of believing, of leadership and of heavenly-mindedness. Our previous readings have been pretty general I thought, but we are coming now to specific features of manhood which please God.

J.T. Quite so. And then it is remarkable the variety of things that comes before us here, male and female and other remarkable features. One has been struck of late as to the idea of the house of God, the many things connected with it that are not

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specifically mentioned. We have just got to leave it open. The house may take a certain material form; but the idea of it, the place for God, is a great thought in Scripture. It is not just any house, but the house of God.

Ques. What is the force of the name, "Lord Jehovah"?

J.T. "Lord" would be in the sense of authority. "Jehovah" is mentioned first in chapter 2 of this book, not in chapter 1 but in the second, as if God was coming into covenant relation with His people. That is the idea of it; and the title "Lord" added to it would be authority. We feel the need of authority in these circumstances.

Ques. You referred to the house of God. I wondered why you bring that in here? What have we to see in that?

J.T. It is not because it is specifically mentioned here, only these features would suggest it. So going on to the 11th verse, "And the birds of prey came down on the carcases; and Abram scared them away. And as the sun was just going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, a horror, a great darkness, fell upon him. And he said to Abram, Know assuredly that thy seed will be a sojourner in a land that is not theirs, and they shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years. But also that nation which they shall serve I will judge; and afterwards they shall come out with great property. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. And in the fourth generation they shall come hither again; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full", Genesis 15:11 - 16. Notice that God is waiting for some iniquity to come to its fulness. And then it says, in verse 17, "And it came to pass when the sun had gone down, and it was dark, that behold, there was a smoking furnace, and a flame of fire which passed between those pieces. On the same day Jehovah made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates", Genesis 15:17 - 18

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so that God is now leading up to something that He is going to confirm to Abram, this wonderful inheritance, the wonderful inheritance he is coming into.

F.H.L. Was Abram's concern that he should have a generation to follow on, a question of continuing the link with God so as to take up the inheritance?

J.T. I would think so, I would think that is just the truth. And how great the number of years that would elapse! But God is patient, He is going to keep on until the iniquity of the Amorites is full. And so it is with much that goes on now, that God must have certain rights in the sense of patience, the rights of patience.

A.R. Do these boundaries in the end of the chapter refer to the millennium, or did David ever fully take all this territory?

J.T. In Matthew we have the Son of David first, and then the Son of Abraham. But David is the king, the one that can do things militarily.

C.A.M. I was thinking of this matter of the Euphrates, how great the extent of it! It seems to look forward to David's day. It says that David went to establish his dominion by the river Euphrates; that would suggest a very extensive matter.

J.T. It is the eastern territory, the region between the east and the west. It comes in in the book of Revelation. It is seen in the 16th chapter of that book.

C.A.M. That is very interesting; it greatly, enlarges the view in this chapter. What an immense and extended view it is! The subject is so large that one has a great desire to be expanded as we think of the greatness of Abraham and of what God says about him.

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J.H.E. Would it not be almost like the breadth and length and depth and height?

J.T. Just so, the breadth and the length and the depth and the height. That is an Ephesian measure.

Ques. Would you say a little about how to scare away intruding influences? I was thinking of the apostle Paul saying, "I buffet my body and lead it captive", 1 Corinthians 9:27. He would not tolerate anything that would hinder. Was not that the same line that Abram was on here? He was scaring away the birds. How often in the morning meeting thoughts come in when we are occupied with the service of praise; thoughts about our businesses or families or things like that, and they should be put out of our minds.

J.T. Paul had complete control of his body so that he would "lead it captive" and would not be carried away by natural influences. And as to alien thoughts, you would scare them away. How often we entertain them and begin to think of our circumstances or what we may have to do under certain circumstances.

T.E.H. You suggested recently in the morning meeting that the scaring away of these birds continues throughout the whole of the Lord's day, and possibly the week.

J.T. Very good, the whole day; I think that is a fine thing that we should keep the Lord's day for the Lord and not use it for other things. It is the Lord's day and it is called the first day of the week too in order to give it another distinction. The first day of the week is the Lord's day. The Lord's day is a matter of His authority, of what belongs to Him on that day.

Ques. Is not the object of the enemy to rob God both in Sodom with the matter of taking the souls, and here with the birds of prey that came down?

J.T. Quite so; "Will a man rob God?" Malachi 3:8 it says in Malachi.

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E.A.L. Is that not what the enemy ever has in mind? We see that early in man's history, that Cain because of the operation of his will was used of the enemy to rob God of a worshipper.

J.T. And how Satan seduced Eve, too, how the woman became deceived.

Ques. Would you say that a man who is under the influence of the word of God as Abram is here, has the power to scare the birds away?

J.T. That is what our brother has been saying, that you get damaged if you entertain these thoughts on the first day of the week. The idea is to scare away the evil.

A.B.P. According to Hebrews the word divides between the thoughts and intents of the heart. Would it be right to say that if the thoughts are not judged, they become intents?

J.T. Just so.

F.N.W. Would not that passage as referring to Abram show that the more we have to do with God the more the truth penetrates us?

J.T. Just so. Now we come to chapter 17. It says, "And Abram was ninety-nine years old, when Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said to him, I am the Almighty God: walk before my face, and be perfect. And I will set my covenant between me and thee, and will very greatly multiply thee. And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying, It is I". It is, as it were, God speaking as a man to his fellow; God graciously coming down in that sense to Abram. I think that is very beautiful: "It is I". He says, "Behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of a multitude of nations". It is a covenant, an engagement, that God is making with Abram: "It is I", as if God is willing to let Himself be known to Abram in this beautiful way in the sense of covenant.

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R.W.S. This is greater than anything that has gone before; are we not moving on in our apprehension of God now that He has confidence in Abram?

J.T. Just so; so that chapter 17 is a sort of climax as to Abram being brought into personal relations with Jehovah, who says to him, "It is I".

F.H.L. There is a beautiful link with Psalm 105. I notice that the word covenant appears fourteen times in our chapter, and in the psalm it says, "He is ever mindful of his covenant, -- the word which he commanded to a thousand generations, -- which he made with Abraham", Psalm 105:8,9. It is the whole generation of faith coming into the good of the covenant.

J.T. Very good; I think that is a very beautiful psalm, one has often pondered upon it: "He is ever mindful of his covenant", Psalm 105:8. He never gives it up.

F.S.C. Would it be here that "He takes hold of the seed of Abraham" Hebrews 2:16 according to Hebrews 2?

J.T. Just so.

R.D.G. Inasmuch as it says of Abram that he was to be a father not just of a nation, but of nations, is it evident that God had what was spiritual in mind?

J.T. Surely; and what a man he was! You just wonder what Abraham will be in eternity, what a place he will have. It is a question to look into, the place a man like Abraham will have. Nobody else is quite like him that I can think of in his dispensation.

R.D.G. So that we are not linked with failure, we are linked with Abraham, the man of faith.

J.T. Very good. And we can talk to Abraham's seed according to flesh about that too; the time has come that we should talk to them and tell them that the millennial moment is coming and ask them if they are ready for it? I do not think that they are,

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although they have Palestine again and much is taking place but where is it leading to?

E.S. Is that why the Lord makes distinction in John 8 between Abraham's seed and Abraham's children? He says, "I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, ... If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham", John 8:39.

J.T. And so the Lord says, "This did not Abraham", John 8:40 that is, they were not like Abraham. And that is the point, I think; we ought to come to the idea of the Abrahamic family; he is the father of us all.

T.E.H. The poor man in Luke 16 found himself at great disadvantage in this world, but he finally found himself in the bosom of Abraham. What a wonderful place, to be with a father like that!

D.P. Are the blessings of Abraham wider than the blessings of the assembly? What I mean is, do Abraham's blessings extend beyond the blessings of the assembly?

J.T. They are not wider than the assembly, for there is no other family like the assembly. In general terms I would say that the blessings of Abraham extend to Israel, but the assembly is the Lamb's wife, the bride of Christ, and she must come into all that He has in that sense. It must be the greatest of all inheritances. As to what the bride is by itself, there is no other family or thing to compare with it.

J.T.Jr. So it is, "Let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26 in the beginning.

J.T. Just so, that is Christ and the assembly. "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Ephesians 5:32. Paul says; she is coming into the dominion. "Let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26.

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MAN (5)

Genesis 18:1 - 33; Genesis 20:1,2

J.T. In taking Man for our subject it is not merely to consider him in the purely natural condition in which he may be, but as the subject of divine work. So that Abraham, to whom we have now come, affords much in this sense, God having wrought with him peculiarly. According to chapter 12 He directed him to leave his country, his kindred and his father's house; and he obeyed, which is a good mark of manhood. Another thing that strikes one as we come to the present chapter is the familiarity he had with God, and yet in a humble and simple way, which is to be followed I am sure by us all. I mean the idea of simplicity and sincerity which the chapter affords to us. It will be noticed that, "Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he sat at the tent-door in the heat of the day. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him. And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent-door", showing that he was free inwardly as well as outwardly; "and bowed himself to the earth, and said, Lord, if now I have found favour in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched", and so forth. This opening of the chapter shows the liberty he had with God; he was, as we sometimes use the term, on good terms with God; and it might be added, God was on good terms with him. The incarnation, and the redemption based upon it, brings out all these things, the terms on which we may be with God according to the terms on which He is with us.

W.W.M. Do you think the fact that Abraham was sitting would suggest a state in which Jehovah would be complacent? Would it suggest a restful state in the saints?

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J.T. Yes; and he was taking advantage of circumstances which would make his position more comfortable. He was sitting at his tent-door in the heat of the day.

A.R. Three men are referred to in verse 2 but in verse 3 Abraham says, "Lord", as if he has one Person particularly in mind. Would that suggest that spirituality marked him?

J.T. There were three persons and he distinguished one of them as Jehovah, whereas the other two were angels. So that he had spiritual discernment.

A.R. You spoke about the incarnation which makes all plain to us. Would this visitation be anticipative of it?

J.T. It would imply that God has come down: 'God come down, a heavenly Stranger'. (Hymn 112). God Himself has come down, in incarnation. That is what exists now; not then, but now. Incarnation had not then taken place, but it has now, and everything is based upon it.

J.H.E. Would Abraham's liberty with Jehovah be a state reached as a result of his action in the preceding chapter in regard of circumcision? He would be free of self.

J.T. Quite so. Circumcision, if taken up according to the epistle to the Colossians, sets us free; we are delivered from the power of the flesh as circumcised.

C.A.M. Would you say something as to how it takes form that we should show our appreciation of such a visit? Abraham suggests a little water, and the consideration for a little rest. How are we enabled to do this service in connection with divine Persons?

J.T. Well, it is a question of our knowledge of God I would say. God has come in in Christ so that we should know Him and be set free in freedom.

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The incarnation, and redemption accomplished on the basis of it, enables God to give us this privilege, to afford pleasure to divine Persons in such wonderful liberty.

C.A.M. Was it the Lord's grace in John 4 that gave the woman the opportunity of doing a service for Him?

J.T. Yes, quite. She had the opportunity to render Him a service. He had said, "Give me to drink", John 4:7.

C.A.M. Yes, it is wonderful that a divine Person should make it possible for her to serve Him.

J.T. Quite so; He "sat just as he was at the fountain", John 4:6. It was Himself, come down in that way.

A.N.W. You spoke of Abraham's simplicity; is that not seen in the ease with which he can address either the one Person or the three? There is no confusion in his mind; he is as much at ease in addressing the three as in addressing the One.

J.T. Just so; and so it says, "And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him". Now the word 'standing' there implies that they took up the position deliberately, not casually but deliberately; there is a certain attitude implied in the manner of the standing. And then it goes on, "And when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent-door", that is to say, he is ready to leave a comfortable position and exert himself; "and bowed himself to the earth", he discerned what was suitable; "and said, Lord"; he knows what term to use; he is reverential. "If now I have found favour in thine eyes, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched, that ye", the 'ye' is the plural, that is to say he quickly turns over to the plural including the other two, and addresses them accordingly; "that ye may wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant. And they said",

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the three spoke, as it were, "So do as thou hast said". The passage is perfectly beautiful, and orderly and right in every way.

F.H.L. Are there some features of manhood shining out in the three men, which link up with our subject? I was considering the emphasis on men throughout the chapter; it says, "the men rose up thence", and so forth. At the beginning of the next chapter it is two angels. Are the features of manhood coming to light here?

J.T. It is questionable if we should stress features of manhood as seen in the three.

A.N.W. Have you a point in saying that they were angels?

J.T. No, not much; it is known from the context that they were. But whether the features of manhood exist is a question. If we transfer that question to Abraham, I would say that there is a little discrepancy in what comes out in the chapter, especially the idea of beginning with fifty and coming down to ten and then stopping there in his intercession. Why does he do that? Why does he not speak plainly at first? I think there is a little discrepancy there in Abraham.

F.H.L. In reference to the Lord in John 1 the Baptist says, "There standeth one", John 1:26 the same idea as here, meaning taking up a position. So also in relation to Laodicea and the thought of One standing there at the door. You were referring to the Lord Jesus in His lowly manhood in John 4, and I wondered if there was anything of that character to be seen here So that Abraham would recognize a divine Person?

J.T. Quite so, he recognizes a divine Person, clearly. But then when we come down to all the facts in the chapter there are certain discrepancies to

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be noticed in Abraham, a certain want of transparency, something we must avoid at all cost, the lack of transparency.

R.W.S. Will you say more about the discrepancy which you say existed in Abraham?

J.T. Why did he ask about fifty persons in the city when he was ready to come down to ten? Why did he not explain what he meant? First he asks for fifty, and then he comes down to forty-five, and then he comes down to thirty, and then finally he comes down to ten. All that, I would say, was the want of transparency and simplicity.

Ques. I always thought that he came down from fifty to ten because he did not know how many righteous there were in the city. Would you say in that respect that he failed?

J.T. How do we know he was not thinking of Lot and his wife and his daughters all the time?

Rem. I thought that he did not know and that is why he first thought of fifty.

J.T. But why should he begin with fifty? He should certainly have known if there were fifty righteous persons in the city. Why did he not know?

Rem. So that he really should have been aware whether or not there were fifty living near him who were righteous.

J.T. Why should he not have known? Why did he not have some idea of his neighbours?

J.H.E. Would all this help us that if we are to pray with intelligence we must have facts?

J.T. And that if we speak to the brethren we are to be transparent in what we are saying.

A.R. Abraham knew Lot was in Sodom.

J.T. Yes, and his wife and daughters.

Ques. We need help as to the service of God in the assembly as suggested in this matter of ministering

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to the Lord. Is that not a most important feature in our chapter?.

J.T. Well, Abraham certainly ministered to these heavenly visitors. Let us look at the facts of the case. It says, in verse 6, "And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour, and make cakes". That is a good word, he is directing his wife to do something for the visitors, One of whom is God Himself while the two others are angels. That is quite orderly, I would say.

Ques. May I ask a little about this matter of running? It says that he ran and he hastened. He acted with urgency. Why should we come together and sit for a long time at our prayer meetings before we start to pray, and then wait many minutes between prayers? And why should a long time elapse before we start the service at the morning meeting?

J.T. I do not think that a long time should elapse; I think we should be orderly; and if we have come together to pray, why do we not pray? Someone should do it, it is imperative that someone should. It is not orderly to sit together without praying.

Ques. We should not require God to wait. We should not hurry things in an unseemly manner, but I do not think it is orderly to have very long pauses.

J.T. I quite agree with that. We have to consider the object of our coming together, and do the thing. Many a time it has been pointed out that we come together to break bread; that is what they did at the beginning, on the first day of the week they came together to break bread. It was definite, then why not do it? It should be done without undue delay.

R.W.S. In verse 5 it says, "And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant".

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Abraham seems to understand that they had come for that very reason, to be served. Is your point that later on he seems to be losing ground, since he starts with fifty; that he is not on as good terms as he is in verse 5?

J.T. Quite so; when he says in verse 5, "I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant", they say, "So do as thou hast said"; so that he is exactly right there in what he suggests to the three persons. Then the next thing is what Abraham does; he proceeds at once to do the thing. "And Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah", that is another thing; Sarah was his wife and it was a household matter, you might say, he directs her what to do. So the matter is perfectly orderly.

Ques. Do you include Sarah in the thought of "man" here?

J.T. Although the woman has certain things to do I would think that here it is the idea of man as such. Abraham is hastening: "Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour, and make cakes. And Abraham ran to the herd, and took a calf tender and good, and gave it to the attendant; and he hasted to dress it". Now that is right from his point of view, but I am not sure that Sarah did just what she was told to do. "And they said to him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return to thee at this time of the year, and behold, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent-door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old and advanced in age: it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am become old, shall I have pleasure, and my lord old?"

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So far as I can see she has not done what she was directed to do; it does not say that she did.

Ques. You mean that at the end of verse 6 she was told to knead three seahs of flour, and it does not say that she did it?

J.T. That is right; therefore there is a want of manhood there in the sense of obedience. If a wife is not ready to do what her husband suggests under such circumstances she is not obedient.

J.H.E. She was, in a sense, eavesdropping, listening behind the tent-door. We shall never get a matter correctly if we get it that way.

J.T. We will proceed now. Jehovah is minded to tell Abraham what He is going to do for his wife, and she was listening at the tent-door and she laughed within herself; there was a lack there, a want of transparency and obedience. In verse 14 God says, "At the time appointed I will return to thee, at this time of the year, and Sarah shall have a son" -- great fact, Isaac is to be born! Then the next thing is verse 17, "And Jehovah said, Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" And there is a reason for it, "Since Abraham shall indeed become a great and mighty nation; and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him. For I know him that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice, in order that Jehovah may bring upon Abraham what he hath spoken of him". The matter is now all clear to us, that we have Abraham's character for years to come and that God knows him and knows that he can be relied upon, so that He is not going to hide things from him; He is going to tell him things.

Ques. May I refer back again to verse 13? Jehovah takes up the matter with Abraham, but Sarah laughed, He did not take up the matter with

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Sarah. Is there a principle in that, that the husband is responsible for the wife, in the matter of headship?

J.T. That is so, though I think the matter of laughing is quite in order in its proper setting; as a matter of fact the word 'laugh' comes out in time, it enters into the meaning of Isaac's name. But this thought of Abraham as a man to be relied upon is a matter that we should all take account of: the question of reliability and transparency in this chapter.

R.W.S. What can be said about Abraham conducting the visitors, in verse 16? "Abraham went with them to conduct them". Is that a right thought in view of who they were?.

J.T. It was courtesy, I would say. We are told to be courteous.

R.W.S. He was not staying at home; as they moved on, he moved on, and then it says, "to conduct them". He was moving on towards Sodom.

A.N.W. Is it not commendable, in that had he not done so the disclosures would not have been made? There is what was done as they stationed themselves before Abraham, but as moving on, he conducting them, this disclosure is brought to light. Should we not note that as we move with divine Persons we shall possibly have other disclosures?

J.T. Please tell us more of what you have in mind.

A.N.W. You impressed upon us that previously the visitors had stationed themselves in relation to Abraham as he sat at the tent-door. But now, in verse 16, it says, "And the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom; and Abraham went with them to conduct them". Had he stayed where he was and allowed them to go, it would appear that the disclosure of what God was about to do would not have been made to him.

J.T. And it would seem as if Jehovah intended to stay with Abraham and let the men go. It says,

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"And Jehovah said; Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" Now it also says that "the men rose up thence, and looked toward Sodom", as if they were going that way, but evidently Jehovah intended to stay with Abraham. In verse 22 it says "the men turned thence, and went towards Sodom; and Abraham remained yet standing before Jehovah". Undoubtedly Jehovah intended that, because it says, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" Jehovah intended to say something to Abraham.

A.N.W. Are you suggesting that Jehovah separated from the other two?

J.T. Quite so, so that the whole matter is clear now; the other two are angels, they are creatures, and they are going to Sodom to perform judgment. But Jehovah is standing with Abraham, and Abraham recognizes that and talks to Him; and God talks to Abraham.

C.A.M. So that if we are willing and ready to go with divine Persons in their movements, God would let us into the secret of what He has in mind. "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?" He said, and in order to bring Abraham into that He remained standing designedly.

J.T. Yes, but not the two men; they went on toward Sodom, clearly. The disclosure therefore is not in connection with the two men, but directly from Jehovah to Abraham.

Ques. Is that the position of the assembly today, that we are with the Lord, and the angels are on the way to judgment? I mean the assembly is not associated in the execution of judgment; it is in the light of the gospel.

J.T. Jehovah is in the judgment, of course, it is His mind, but the angels execute it.

S.C.M. We have instruction in the Revelation as to the judgment that is coming upon the whole

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habitable world; we are getting the benefit of this knowledge as we are waiting for the Lord.

J.T. Quite so, I would go with that fully. And it is very impressive too, a most solemn thing is coming, and we can see it here also; because Sodom was to be judged. Abraham sought to interfere to save Sodom, but there were not enough righteous people to save it. That is a solemn thing, that there were not enough righteous people to save it; and ere long there will not be enough righteous people in the world to save it.

R.D.G. With regard to Abraham's lack of transparency in the latter part of the chapter, would you say that he therefore gets into the false position of rebuking God when he says, "Far be it from thee!" as if he were suggesting that it was possible that God could do wrong?

J.T. Yes, just so. I would say that. But what are we to say about this other matter of the number of righteous persons not being sufficient to save the world from judgment? There is no hope of it, the numbers are utterly wanting, there were not fifty righteous, there were not ten righteous in Sodom.

R.W.S. In that connection should we not feel the departure to be with Christ of a number of our brethren lately, some of whom were well known amongst us and serving generally? It says in Isaiah 57, "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart; and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from before the evil. He entereth into peace: they rest in their beds, each one that hath walked in his uprightness", Isaiah 57:1,2. The number of brethren that have gone to be with the Lord means that for each one taken there is one less righteous person left down here. Possibly we should be concerned about those who are to be baptized for the dead.

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A.N.W. Did the Lord have this lack of righteous ones in His mind when He said, "When the Son of man comes, shall he indeed find faith on the earth"? Luke 18:8.

J.T. Very good, I would say that.

S.W. Despite the work of God in the soul of Abraham, there was fluctuation in him in the presence of God. With ourselves, on the Lord's day morning in the service of God we find that we are not able to be sustained very long in power in the presence of divine Persons.

J.T. Then the idea of fluctuations, of course, becomes serious. But I think we might go forward from this point, recognizing that Abraham has failed in certain points in the chapter but that at the same time the humanity that is there is of God; God has effected it, both in his wife and in himself. Therefore we can happily proceed with what is before us. The humanity that is seen in Abraham and in Sarah is, we might say, passable though not exactly perfect. At the same time there is something to be thankful for if we find these features in each other.

Ques. Is it to Abraham's credit that he says, in verse 27, "Behold now, I have ventured to speak unto the Lord; I, who am dust and ashes"?

J.T. It is a humble spirit; that is the kind of humanity that is there and we have to be thankful for it. Now in chapter 20 there is something to consider that I think will be helpful. It says, "And Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur, and sojourned at Gerar. And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, She is my sister". Now that is the thing that I want to bring out; it runs through the whole of chapter 20 that Abraham denied his proper relation with his wife; in type he denied union. Union is a great point in christianity, that Christ is united to the assembly and the assembly is united to Christ. So Abraham

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denied this fact in saying that Sarah was his sister, for she was his wife. He denied union. This thought of union is a prime matter, a matter of first importance in christianity.

A.R. Is that what is in mind in Ephesians, "The two shall be one flesh"? Ephesians 5:31.

J.T. That is just what it is. The denominations around us do not go in for that at all, they do not understand it, and christians generally do not understand it. And I think Abraham is guilty of that here in calling his wife his sister.

W.W.M. Do you think it would also suggest that if we take up an easier position we are likely to deny the church position? Going south would suggest an easier position. It says, "Abraham departed thence towards the south country, and dwelt between Kadesh and Shur". If we take up a lower position, similar to that of denominations and do not maintain the right principles of the assembly, we are actually denying them. So Abraham denied the fact that Sarah was his wife.

J.T. That is what we are dealing with; it is not simply that he went to the south country but that he denied his wife; he called her his sister.

Ques. Would it be going so far as to deny the espousal that Paul speaks of in 2 Corinthians?

J.T. Quite so; Abraham did not recognize the idea of union; it was in type denied by Abraham. What Paul spoke of in Corinthians as to espousing them to one Man was manifestly in view of union; that is the idea. He would insist on it, and that is what we should insist upon, not simply that we are brothers and sisters but that we are united to Christ; we are espoused, we are identified with the Lord's spouse.

A.R. Do we express the idea of union at the Supper?

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J.T. Quite so; the Lord is aiming at that at the celebration of His supper every Lord's day, that we belong to Him, that we are united to Him in one body.

A.N.W. You could certainly never have the bride if you stop only at kinship. The wife must be a sister, but if she stops short of the wife position it is most serious.

J.T. She was his wife here, she was not his sister properly. I mean to say, the wife was the idea. He wanted to save himself by saying that she was his sister, which was not the truth.

A.N.W. How is it that he is so sound on the matter of his children and his household, and so weak on this vital point?

J.T. I think the point is that it covers the whole of christendom and that the truth is not held as to the assembly, generally. So many believers do not understand the truth of the assembly and union.

Ques. Has not the truth of union to be arrived at before we can reach the great thought of "man"?

J.T. Well, if we refer to Genesis we see in the second chapter that Eve is the complement of Adam, that is to say she is the fulness of Adam: "they shall become one flesh" Genesis 2:24 is the idea there and that is what Abraham denied here.

Ques. In the morning meeting reference is often made to the bride, but seldom is reference made to the wife. Should we make more reference on that occasion to the wife and the wifely relations?

J.T. I would think so. The second of Genesis is so decisive on this point in which we are so defective, as advocating and stating the truth that has place in relation to the Lord's supper; that is to say that the Lord's supper implies that the assembly is His body.

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MAN (6)

Genesis 21:1 - 14; Genesis 22:1 - 19; Genesis 24:1 - 9,61 - 67

J.T. There is one item to be mentioned which we did not read at the end of chapter 22. There we have the account of Rebecca's ancestry or genealogy and I think this is worthy of mention as entering into the whole subject now before us, because there is so much damage accruing from the disregard of right principles in marriage. In view of marriage people are very prone to ignore the matter of whether God has begun to work in the persons in whom they are interested, so that we have the matter of mixed marriages, and they are most damaging throughout the testimony. I only mention this as emphasizing a principle that governs this whole matter. So now we begin with chapter 21 referring to the birth and the weaning of Isaac.

S.C.M. How accurate divine Persons are in their movements as to time in connection with man! Certain things are mentioned at certain times and at just the appointed time they are carried out. In our time certain things are being worked out also. It is said of the Lord Jesus in Galatians that at the appointed time He came in.

J.T. Yes.

A.N.W. Referring to chapter 18, at which we were looking last time, God says, "I will certainly return to thee at this time of the year", Genesis 18:10. I presume the time in this chapter refers to that promise?

J.T. Just so, so we have it mentioned in verse 2, "the appointed time of which God had spoken". The movements initiated by divine Persons must be accurate from their own point of view, even if it be the movements of the heavenly bodies, or the earth. Everything must be in accord with the divine mind in accuracy, so that we have the sun rising and the sun setting with accuracy, and so forth. So that in

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dealing with divine things, or with spiritual things, we have to keep accuracy in mind.

E.A.L. Verse 21 of chapter 17 also brings in the appointed time.

Ques. Is there a link with Galatians 4:4, "but when the fulness of the time was come"?

J.T. Exactly, that has been referred to, the fulness of the time had to come; so that the Lord Jesus was born exactly according to the divine plan. There can be no doubt that the coming of the Lord will be on that same principle: God "has set a day in which he is going to judge the habitable earth in righteousness by the man whom he has appointed, giving the proof of it to all in having raised him from among the dead", Acts 17:31.

J.H.E. Could we get some help as to Isaac's name meaning 'laughter?' You said something this afternoon about its being the outcome of what took place in both Abraham and Sarah.

J.T. Evidently the idea is joy in the birth of Christ as we get it in Luke 2:10, "I announce to you glad tidings of great joy ... for today a Saviour has been born to you in David's city, who is Christ the Lord". The angel spoke of that. Now this question of the birth and the weaning of Isaac is something that we perhaps do not know much about, especially the weaning. The brethren will remember that in hymn 211 in our book (1932 edition) the allusion is to Isaac, the weaning of Isaac.

E.E.H. "Abraham exulted in that he should see my day, and he saw and rejoiced", John 8:56. Would that refer to this?

J.T. Yes, I think so.

A.N.W. Do you refer to the words:

"When Our hearts this place accord Him,
When, as Isaac, He has come,
We shall then in answer to Him
Cast out Hagar and her son".

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J.T. Yes; Hagar's son would speak of the man born after the flesh, which many of us prefer to him that is born after the Spirit.

A.R. Have you in your mind that Abraham says, in Genesis 17:18, "Oh that Ishmael might live before thee"? Genesis 17:18

J.T. That is the man born after the flesh, that is the same man over again only in another character.

T.E.H. Would you say that it took the help of Sarah to bring Abraham to that conclusion so that he acted in casting out the maid servant? It was on the occasion of Isaac being weaned that this animosity on the part of Ishmael came to light. It evidently did not come to light before that.

D.P. The weaning brings Isaac into prominence.

J.T. Quite so. The idea of weaning is that we can do without nature, we can do without the natural mother.

J.H.E. Would Paul answer to this in Romans 7, in displacing the man after the flesh and looking to the true Isaac? He came to a realization of what man after the flesh meant, and how he must be disposed of.

J.T. Just so, only circumcision was needed for that, not weaning.

C.A.M. Would you say that Sarah had made progress in her soul? She says, "God has made me laugh: all that hear will laugh with me". Had she not really come to the divine thought in her son?

J.T. She had laughed prematurely at first, now she laughs intelligently.

F.H.L. If we look at Abraham and Sarah as the full thought of manhood, do they suggest the subjective side in love that would take account of the mockery of the man after the flesh and set it aside to make room for Isaac?

J.T. Just so. The point is the weaning. Circumcision is obviously according to law, but the weaning

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is so important, that is to say when, spiritually, we can do without the natural support of the mother.

S.W. Would you say it is at that time that we can be dedicated to service? I had in mind Samuel in the day when he was weaned Hannah took him up to the temple and left him there.

J.T. That is to say she gave him up to the service, just so. And she was concerned that he grew accordingly; she made a little coat for him every year, always keeping in mind his growth. That is a subjective idea.

Ques. It is said of the Lord in Luke's gospel that He advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men. Is that the idea?

J.T. Quite so, He advanced in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men. Do not let us forget that side either.

Ques. Does circumcision precede weaning?

J.T. It does, the cutting off of the natural.

Rem. In verse 4 it is said that Abraham circumcised his son Isaac; and then in verse 8 that he was weaned.

J.T. "The child grew, and was weaned". There had to be growth before the weaning but not before the circumcision.

A.N.W. Does that mean that weaning is a greater test? The matter of circumcision is complete; but when it comes to weaning, while Abraham makes a great feast for Isaac he is not ready to have Ishmael displaced. But the two cannot remain together, is that the point?

J.T. "Cast out this handmaid and her son", is where the hesitancy comes.

C.F.E. Abraham had to learn that the first order of man had to go, as it says in verse 11, "And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son".

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T.E.H. What is the difference between the expression that Mr. Darby uses in his hymn, "Art thou weaned from Egypt's pleasures?" (Hymn 76) and this matter of being through with the man according to flesh?

J.T. Well, Egypt's pleasures are more simple, they are worldly things; but the weaning here is from what is proper in itself; that is, the mother's food is proper in itself. But it is not proper when the time of weaning has come.

J.H.E. Paul says, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child", 1 Corinthians 13:11 but then he looks for full-grown manhood.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Are you suggesting that circumcision is now made good in us?

J.T. Oh, I think so; it is first but weaning is second, in that sense. It is not simply a legal thing; the person is equal to it; the person has grown to it. It is a question of growth, not of legal requirement.

R.W.S. David says in Psalm 131, which is in the songs of degrees: "Surely I have restrained and composed my soul, like a weaned child with its mother: my soul within me is as a weaned child", Psalm 131:2.

J.T. Like a weaned child, he was true to the thing. He was true to what Abraham set out at first. Weaning is a subjective thing; circumcision is not that, it is a legal thing, a requirement.

R.W.S. Would composing the soul mean that he was restful in the new condition?

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. The last verse might throw further light on the matter. It reads: "Let Israel hope in Jehovah, from henceforth and for evermore", Psalm 131:3.

J.T. It is a fixed matter with him, as a true and experienced person. But returning to our passage, the great question is the casting out of Hagar, and her son. Ishmael mocked, it was persecution, he was a mocker.

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A.N.W. Are we helped by that principle today? Do we have to learn the mocking character of the maidservant and her son to help us reach the point of liberty?

J.T. Quite so, the casting out; Abraham was hesitant about that but Sarah was not, and God orders that it should be so. There must be the casting out; it is a violent thing, it is really violence.

A.R. So that the two mothers represent two systems, and the two sons the products of those systems, according to Galatians.

J.T. Just so; so that it says in verse 11, "And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son. And God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad and because of thy handmaid: in all that Sarah hath said to thee hearken to her voice, for in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee. But also the son of the handmaid will I make a nation, because he is thy seed" -- that shows how extensive, how liberal God was in these matters: "because he is thy seed", that is, God respects the father. And so it says, "And Abraham rose up early in the morning". Now notice that, he "rose up early in the morning"; he was obedient, which is another thing we have already noticed in Abraham -- "and took bread, and a flask of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder -- and the child, and sent her away". There is a complete break in sending her away.

Ques. Would you say a word as to Sarah taking a lead in the matter of casting out Ishmael?

J.T. Well, it is a principle in the New Testament, it is Scripture, really. The word of Sarah becomes Scripture in that sense.

Rem. Abraham is told to hearken to her voice.

G.H. In connection with the violence involved in casting out Hagar and her son, it says that the kingdom of heaven is taken by violence. Is that the idea?

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J.T. Well, just so, but I think you would have to examine the force of the word 'violence', "the violent take it by force", Matthew 11:12. The kingdom of heaven is a thing we must have, and you enforce it. It is only a question of the use of the word.

R.W.S. Is weaning a principle involved in manhood according to God? Would the weaning and the casting out and the acceptance of the matter enter into our subject of manhood according to God?

J.T. Oh, I think so, and that Sarah insisted on it and God supported her. It is something that may happen in the assembly, in our care meetings, that a matter must be insisted upon.

T.E.H. It says that when Hannah brought the boy up to Jehovah she brought three bullocks with her and one ephah of flour and a flask of wine. Would that be the appreciation of manhood in her soul as she came up to give the child to the Lord?

J.T. Just so; wine is applied to what is for God Himself; it is stimulation, a question of holy stimulation.

Ques. Does circumcision coming first here suggest the presence of the Spirit, the power to reach the subjective results as seen in weaning?

J.T. The Spirit enables you to do what is right and supports you in it against nature. So the casting out is clearly seen here as an enforcement.

W.W.M. The apostle says to the Hebrews, "For every one that partakes of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe; but solid food belongs to full-grown men, who, on account of habit, have their senses exercised for distinguishing both good and evil" Hebrews 5:13,14.

J.T. That is an allusion to what we are aiming at here, it is just that.

A.N.W. So that this principle of the flesh will not just drop off or drop out; it takes on a mocking

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attitude, and it has to be cast out; there is need of forcefulness.

J.T. Quite so, because there is persecution in a mocking attitude. The Lord Jesus himself speaks of being persecuted; Saul of Tarsus persecuted Him. We now should go on to chapter 22 to consider the offering up of Isaac: "And it came to pass after these things, that God tried Abraham, and said to him, Abraham! and he said, Here am I. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and there offer him up for a burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he clave the wood for the burnt-offering, and rose up and went to the place that God had told him of" (verses 1 - 3). Now we have not only come to the weaning, but Abraham himself is tested to the limit, in offering up his son. It is the test of obedience to the full limit of it that God would have in His people, that we are not to admit anything else but the full limit of testing, and go through with it. That is the next thing before us now in our lesson in the thought of humanity, what man is according to God.

A.N.W. And the manhood, the fibre of the man, is seen again in the rising early under these conditions. "Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass", There must have been an extraordinary fibre of manhood there.

J.T. So that we might as well read a little further, from verse 4 and down, to bring out the perfection of Abraham's obedience: "On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. And Abraham said to his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and the knife, and they went both of them together. And Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, My father! And he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the sheep for a burnt-offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself with the sheep for a burnt-offering. And they went both of them together. And they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built the altar there, and piled the wood; and he bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand, and took the knife to slaughter his son. And the Angel of Jehovah called to him from the heavens, and said, Abraham, Abraham! And he said, Here am I. And he said, Stretch not out thy hand against the lad, neither do anything to him; for now I know that thou fearest God, and hast not withheld thy son".

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Now let us dwell upon that, all of us, the extreme test of obedience, the knife actually raised up to slaughter his son, the extreme test of obedience in Abraham. We are dealing with manhood particularly now, manhood in Abraham.

G.H. Is that seen so beautifully in the Lord Jesus Himself, becoming obedient even unto death?

J.T. Quite so, He became obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross.

A.N.W. Does not the repeated reference to wood in this chapter indicate manhood, really? It says he "piled the wood", and "laid him on the altar upon the wood".

J.T. In fact there is a wood sacrifice in the types; it is really humanity of an acceptable kind.

S.C.M. Does that agree with the shittim wood of which the ark was made?

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J.T. Quite so, the supreme thought of wood is seen in the ark; it is the supreme thought of wood as seen in Christ; the shittim wood suggests the humanity that was seen in Christ.

T.N.W. Earlier it says that Abraham "laid" the wood "on Isaac his son".

J.T. So that the idea of humanity in Abraham is seen in the wood; it is burnable and could be used for the purpose in question.

F.H.L. We had altars in the previous chapters, but is not this the first time the wood is mentioned so far as Abraham is concerned?

J.T. I think it is.

W.W.M. Would we have the same idea as to the wood that Moses took when they came to the bitter waters? He cast the wood into the waters and they became sweet. That would refer to the humanity of Christ, would it not?

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Did God intend in this test that Abraham should really reflect Himself?

J.T. He did, so that the place was called Jehovah-jireh. That leads us to verse 14, at the end of our passage: "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh" -- meaning, The Lord will provide -- "as it is said at the present day, On the mount of Jehovah will be provided". That is, God comes in now when we are in an approved state of obedience; God comes in for us. That is the thing we may count on, that God will come in for us when we go the full length of obedience.

F.H.L. Not only is his obedience tested, but his love, is it not?

J.T. Quite so, his love for his son and his obedience unto God.

A.N.W. Is that not the first mention of love in the Bible, suggesting God in His love for His Son?

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It says, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac".

J.T. So that now we come to the prime thought of the whole passage, beginning with verse 15: "And the Angel of Jehovah called to Abraham from the heavens a second time, and said, By myself I swear, saith Jehovah, that, because thou hast done this, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, I will richly bless thee, and greatly multiply thy seed, as the stars of heaven, and as the sand that is on the sea-shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because thou hast hearkened to my voice. And Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba. And Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba". Now, it is not said that Isaac comes down from the mount; typically he goes up to heaven. That is the idea. Isaac does not go down at all; he is offered up to God, and you might say he goes up to heaven. It says, "Abraham returned to his young men", it does not say Isaac is there; "and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba. And Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba". Well, there is no mention of Isaac, what has become of him? We have to understand that we must make way for heaven and go there, be ready for it.

A.N.W. Then do you place Rebecca's genealogy which follows in the next few verses, in that relation with Isaac?

J.T. Yes; that would offset the pernicious effect of mixed marriages which come in amongst us and you cannot be too strong in speaking about it; the terrible effect of mixed marriages. This passage from verse 20 to the end of the chapter is to bring out the genealogy of Rebecca, that she is a true woman to marry Isaac; she is true woman suitable for marriage according to God.

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R.W.S. It is most important with all the sorrow we have had and still have because of it.

Ques. There is a remarkable passage in Nehemiah 13:23 - 25: "In those days also I saw Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab. And their children spoke half in the language of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people. And I contended with them, and cursed them". Does that show how strong we have to be in this matter?

J.T. Quite so, those were mixed marriages, that is the thought, they are abominable. There must be the seed of God; if a woman is to be married she must be a sister according to God. "To take round a sister as wife", 1 Corinthians 9:5 it says, otherwise she is not fit for it, and there are to be suited qualifications in the brother, too.

D.P. Are all the promises which God had given to Abraham now seen in a risen, exalted and glorified Isaac?

J.T. Very good.

A.N.W. Is that not the idea of the laughter? God has secured joy that way.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Is that why, in this passage, it is said that Abraham's seed will be as the sand of the sea and also as the stars of the heavens?

J.T. Quite so; the idea that the seed was to be heavenly is brought in.

A.R. So that in the partnership of marriage both should be heavenly. It is an awful thing to think of persons marrying if one's outlook is heavenward and the other's is not.

J.T. Awful to think of it! How can anyone take the risk of that?

D.P. So there should be equality in the relationship before the marriage takes place.

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J.T. Equality lies in the word sister, "to take round a sister as wife". 1 Corinthians 9:5.

D.Macd. Do we not see a beautiful example of that in Exodus 2, "And a man of the house of Levi went and took a daughter of Levi"? Exodus 2:1.

J.T. Yes, the right genealogy, that is the idea.

E.T.M. In the Song of Solomon it says, "Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse", Song of Songs 4:9.

J.T. Just so; he recognizes her as his sister first before she is his spouse.

W.W.M. So that in Galatians where this is referred to it says, "But to Abraham were the promises addressed, and to his seed: he does not say, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed; which is Christ", Galatians 3:16. There was no mixture.

J.T. No; very good.

F.S.C. What can be said about the oath in regard to the promise in Hebrews 6? God swore by Himself, it says, because He could not swear by a greater. Why did God have to swear by an oath?

J.T. The whole thing is made sure through the oath, that is what is meant; it is a question of priesthood and of our assurance.

A.R. Is your point in this chapter that in figure Isaac goes up to heaven and stays there, and Rebecca comes to light under these circumstances?

J.T. So that we have already spoken of the stars as alluding to our heavenly portion, the seed of Abraham being viewed as stars.

Ques. If asked what our link with heaven is, should we not say that it is the Spirit, through the Spirit? Of course, we must be righteous in what we say.

J.T. Yes.

C.A.M. Would that not be inferred in the statement that Abraham dwelt in Beer-sheba, which would correspond with Isaac's not coming back? That would seem to suggest the Spirit.

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J.T. We must bring in the Spirit to make things possible and certain subjectively, not objectively. For what is subjective we must have the Spirit.

A.R. What had you in mind about chapter 24?

J.T. It brings out the need of a suitable bride for Isaac. The point is that the link must be in the family, there must be a family link between the two. Isaac is not to marry a person who is not of the family, of his own genealogy, so that the early verses of chapter 24 record that. And then beginning from verse 61 we have the facts of Rebecca's marriage to Isaac and the results, that he was comforted after the death of his mother.

A.R. If one is looking for a wife, should he look for her according to the mind of God?

J.T. Quite so; but it is a question of the family link, that the family link must be spiritual.

S.C.M. In Genesis 2 it says, "I will make him a helpmate, his like"; Genesis 2:18 and the footnote says, 'counterpart'. She must be like himself.

J.T. Yes; counterpart is the word, she is of himself. Myself over again, as someone has said. The man says of the woman, in principle, It is myself over again. So that Christ would say that of the assembly, it is Himself in that sense, it is like Himself. "The fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:23.

A.R. You have said that you must have kinship before you can rightly have marriage; so that for the assembly the idea of brethren must come first. After that you get the idea of the assembly.

J.T. That is the point here, so that the first nine verses of the chapter should be read again that we may all have it before us: "And Abraham was old, and advanced in age; and Jehovah had blessed Abraham in all things. And Abraham said to his servant, the eldest of his house, who ruled over all that he had, Put thy hand, I pray thee, under my thigh, and I will make thee swear by Jehovah, the God of the heavens and the God of the earth, that thou take not a wife for my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I am dwelling; but thou shalt go to my land and to my kindred, and take a wife for my son Isaac. And the servant said to him, Perhaps the woman will not be willing to follow me to this land: must I, then, bring thy son again in any case to the land from which thou hast removed? And Abraham said to him, Beware that thou bring not my son thither again. Jehovah the God of the heavens, who took me out of my father's house, and out of the land of my nativity, and who has spoken to me, and who has sworn to me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land -- he will send his angel before thee, that thou mayest take a wife for my son thence. And if the woman be not willing to follow thee, then thou shalt be quit of this my oath: only, bring not my son thither again. And the servant put his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and swore unto him concerning that matter".

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It is by an oath that the matter is confirmed, it must be by oath. And then we can proceed from verse 61 for the completion of the whole matter: "And Rebecca arose, and her maids, and they rode upon the camels, and followed the man. And the servant took Rebecca, and went away. And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country. And Isaac had gone out to meditate in the fields towards the beginning of evening. And he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, camels were coming. And Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac, and she sprang off the camel. And she had said to the servant, Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master! Then she took the veil, and covered herself. And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done. And Isaac led her into his mother Sarah's tent; and he took Rebecca, and she became his wife, and he loved her. And Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother".

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R.W.S. There are no discrepancies now with Abraham, either in this matter of supreme obedience or in his word to his servant not to take his son back into Syria again if he cannot find a wife. It seems to be a perfect conclusion now in Abraham and in Isaac and in Rebecca. Is that how we should arrive at this feature of manhood where discrepancies vanish and what is perfect is seen?

J.T. I think it is almost, as the word in Hebrews 12 says, "the spirits of just men made perfect", Hebrews 12:23. Abraham, we might say, is made perfect in chapter 24; it is in measure like perfect manhood.

R.H.S. Does the thought of manhood in any sense supersede that of sonship? Is manhood a greater thought than sonship? We have been considering Isaac in relation to sonship; but we find in Revelation that God will tabernacle with men.

J.T. It is difficult to say; God is leading many sons to glory. These are men, it is a masculine idea. So that there are two things to be noted in Hebrew 2: first the masculine side in that God is leading many sons to glory, which is what God is doing; but then in verse 12 we have the assembly: "In the midst of the assembly" the Lord says to His Father, "will I sing thy praises"; Hebrews 2:12 that is the feminine idea. The Lord Jesus has the assembly now in which to sing the praises of God. Those are the two ideas; the first is the masculine in that sons are being led to glory, and the second is the feminine, in the assembly in which He praises the Father.

A.N.W. So that the system in unity is feminine; when it is a matter of sons it is masculine.

J.T. That is right.

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Ques. There is nothing greater than the thought of "Let us make man", Genesis 1:26 as we had it in our first reading, is there?

J.T. I would say that; and that is inclusive of women, it included Eve.

T.E.H. Speaking of greatness, there is a remarkable statement in chapter 26 which says, "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold; and Jehovah blessed him. And the man became great, and he became continually greater, until he was very great" Genesis 26:12,13. That helps us as to the greatness of Isaac.

J.T. Just so, as it were to fill out the thought of Abraham; because while Isaac himself failed eventually, he filled out the full thought of Abraham at first.

Ques. How is Isaac to be regarded as master? Throughout the chapter generally the servant speaks of Abraham as master.

J.T. Isaac supersedes Abraham, he is the master now; there is the idea of succession, for Abraham dies, the next chapter tells us of his death, while Isaac becomes greater and greater.

A.N.W. May I suggest that it might be indicated in the Spirit and the bride saying, Come. The Servant, typifying the Spirit, is saying it now to His master, one may say reverently. Is that not the consummation of the whole matter, "the Spirit and the bride say, Come", Revelation 22:17 to that Man?

J.T. Yes.

A.R. Rebecca asks "Who is the man?"

J.T. The answer is, "That is my master!" Abraham's servant is really a type of the Spirit, and He is the One that answers.

F.H.L. If the full thought of manhood is seen in Christ and the assembly, then, in that sense, would it be greater than the thought of sons?

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J.T. Well, Christ and the assembly, just so. But the assembly is never viewed as belonging to Deity, that should be guarded.

A.R. So the chapter really finishes with the idea of union, which we had this afternoon. "And she became his wife, and he loved her".

A.N.W. Here we have the second mention of love in the Bible I believe. The one who was loved now loves his wife.

J.T. Yes; and then Sarah has mention eventually in the narrative; it says, "Isaac was comforted after the death of his mother", that is to say that although Rebecca comes into her tent, yet Sarah is a type of Israel and she will come into her place in the millennium.

G.H. That expression, "Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us?" brings before us in a wonderful way the greatness of Christ.

J.T. He is recognizing the Spirit really, he is coming and going to the well of Lahai-roi. "And Rebecca lifted up her eyes and saw Isaac, and she sprang off the camel. And she had said to the servant, Who is the man that is walking in the fields to meet us? And the servant said, That is my master!" Now that is the Spirit of God really, in type; the Spirit of God comes in there to link up Rebecca with Isaac. But then there is another thing to think of, and that is the mother; and the millennium must make way for Israel in some sense; and the mother here I believe is Israel.

S.W. Is there significance in the place from which Isaac is coming at this point?

J.T. It is the principle of coming and going. It is to recognize the Spirit, I think. "And Isaac had just returned from Beer-lahai-roi; for he was dwelling in the south country". There is a note to that verse, that he 'came from coming to'. It is the Lord Jesus, in type, recognizing the Spirit as seen in the well,

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coming from and going to it. I hope the brethren will not think that I am speaking too strongly about these things, but I think that we ought to recognize the Spirit wherever we can, because it is a great point at the moment that we should see the Spirit of God in everything, even in type.

A.N.W. Does Rebecca show her chaste virginity when she veils herself? Paul speaks of presenting the saints as "a chaste virgin to Christ", 2 Corinthians 11:2.

J.T. Just so, suitability too, and lowliness are seen in her act.

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MAN (7)

Genesis 25:19 - 21; Genesis 26:12 - 35; Genesis 27:6 - 41

J.T. No doubt we shall be observant of the fact that in our subject of Man we are dealing with a very extensive matter in the sense of the persons and the scriptures involved in it. We feel that the subject is of main importance because man was recently created; that is, comparatively recently; but that God reserved this creation with man in view. We shall hope to cover the subject in some sense, because it is so important that we should understand what God has in mind to work out in man; and particularly that the Lord Jesus Himself became Man. Nothing should be more affecting than that fact, that He became, not an angel, but Man. And so in the group of scriptures read we should not exclude certain persons that represent less attractive features of manhood. Therefore Ishmael ought to be mentioned. And then we have the sisters as well, Rebecca and others, but especially Rebecca. Ishmael, we might say, affords a variety. He is a son of Abraham, but not the promised seed; still he is the son of Abraham and God takes account of him accordingly, and we have to take account of him too as presenting certain features of manhood. Isaac's history does not cover so much ground as Abraham's or Jacob's, but we are mainly occupied now with him.

R.W.S. Of Ishmael it says in verse 12, "Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's bondwoman, bore to Abraham", Genesis 25:12. Is that over against Isaac being called Abraham's son in verse 19? There it says, "Abraham begot Isaac".

J.T. And the word 'called' has to be remembered, "In Isaac shall a seed be called to thee"; Genesis 21:12. I mean to say Isaac is the divine thought, he was the promised seed; Ishmael was a mere contrivance by

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Sarah. Still, he was Abraham's seed too, and God said He would bless him because he was his seed; but "in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee", Genesis 21:12 that was the idea.

A.N.W. In God's mind Isaac was his 'only' son: "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest", Genesis 22:2.

J.T. So that God confines Himself to the promise, and why should not God do that? Any father ought to be free to do it, but certainly God. And so He regards Isaac as the only son of Abraham.

S.C.M. And so it is said of the Lord Jesus, "My beloved Son".

J.T. Yes, quite so, "in whom I have found my delight", Matthew 3:17. Matthew 17:5 it is only the Lord Jesus that could be so regarded, but Isaac is clearly a beautiful type of the Lord Jesus and Rebecca is a type of the assembly. That is another thing that has to be noted, hence so much is made of her.

A.R. Do these verses go back to Genesis 1 and 2 where it says, "Let us make man", Genesis 1:26 which includes the woman?

J.T. That is right, "and let them have dominion". "Them" is plural, of course, so that the man and the woman are regarded as having the same derivation. I mean Eve is taken from Adam, she is out of him.

A.R. Whereas Rebecca was the father's thought for Isaac; it was the suggestion of Abraham that she be procured for Isaac, was it not?

J.T. Quite so; it was a divine matter really that Christ and the assembly should appear in just this beautiful way, Isaac being a type of Christ and Rebecca a type of the assembly.

J.H.E. It says, "And Isaac entreated Jehovah for his wife, because she was barren". Is that, in some sense, going on now, the Lord being on high having the assembly in view for fruitfulness?

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J.T. Well, quite so.

A.B.P. Does Ishmael serve as a sort of background to bring out by way of contrast certain features of Isaac? He is spoken of as a wild ass of a man and his hand against every man.

J.T. Quite so. That is a remarkable thing, that he is called a wild ass of a man, so that he is entirely different in that sense from Isaac.

Rem. In chapter 26:13 it says of Isaac, "And the man became great".

J.T. He became exceedingly great, so that he would fill out what Abraham represented in that sense.

G.V.D. It says in verse 5 of our chapter: "And Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac", Genesis 25:5. Would that link on with the Father loving the Son and giving all things into His hand?

J.T. It would. Isaac was, as it were, the only son although Ishmael was recognised as Abraham's seed. But really, Isaac is the only son, he is the heir, he receives all, the first-born's portion.

C.A.M. While Rebecca was the suited wife for Isaac, yet it is remarkable that she was barren and it was necessary to entreat Jehovah for her.

J.T. But that only gave occasion for God's power to come in, God overcame that by His power.

C.A.M. Do we see that in the working out of things in the assembly now?

J.T. It gave God the opportunity to show His power, to make His power known, and His power is being seen currently. The assembly is being brought to light; it is a question of the power of God.

J.H.E. Does it not help to see Isaac here as the heavenly man? We noticed in our last reading that no mention is made of his coming down from the mountain.

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J.T. We have to see Abraham in the same light because his generations are not given, whereas Isaac's are. Abraham's generations are not given; therefore he is a distinguished man, hence a heavenly man. But Isaac also is heavenly, only more in detail than Abraham. Abraham's generations are not given which is perhaps something which some of us have not observed.

C.A.M. Is that to emphasize the father idea in Abraham?

J.T. Just so, it is the idea of the father. The New Testament has to be taken into account in all these matters; you cannot get the full thought without the New Testament. So that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must come into our considerations.

C.A.M. It is a very striking thing; I think it throws light on why his generations are not given.

J.T. Therefore it is "things new and old" Matthew 13:52; not old and new, but new and old. The New Testament is first in that sense.

E.A.L. Stephen begins his address in Acts 7 with Abraham.

J.T. Just so.

A.T.D. Verse 19 refers to Isaac's generations and says, "Abraham begot Isaac". Will you say something about that, please?

J.T. You have to regard the language of Scripture and it does not speak of Abraham's generations, but it does speak of Isaac's and even of Ishmael's. So that we have to look for Abraham somewhere else, as the heavenly man, I would say. You have to learn to look for persons who seem to be omitted; but we shall find out that they are not omitted.

A.N.W. That must be so for his name means 'father of a multitude'.

J.T. Yes; 'high father' first, and then 'father of a multitude'.

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A.B.P. Is there some connection between what has been said about Abraham's generations and the word in Ephesians 3:21: "To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages"?

J.T. Just so, that has its place, it is "unto all generations of the age of ages".

A.R. Do you think the fact that no reference is made to the generations of Abraham is a question of our understanding that God has no origin, He is from eternity to eternity?

J.T. Well, John tells us that with respect to the Lord: "In the beginning was the Word", John 1:1. He was, He is eternal. "And the Word was with God, and the Word was God". So that you can connect those thoughts with the Father and with the Son, but it is stated especially of the Son: "In the beginning was the Word", and then, "the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us", John 1:14.

R.W.S. Is there any link in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the thought of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I think so. You would think so yourself?

R.W.S. Well, I would. We shall come to that later I suppose as to Jacob. I think I can see it in Abraham and Isaac, and I suppose we shall have to wait until we come to Jacob to see it there.

J.T. And so in Revelation 4:8: "Holy, holy, holy" -- three holies, suggesting the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, I would say.

S.C.M. In Matthew 1 Abraham is linked on with the generation of Jesus Christ: "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham", Matthew 1:1

J.T. The question therefore arises as to why should David be mentioned before Abraham. But it is only to bring out the thought of kingship, to give it its full place in David; full room has to be

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made for kingship; the brethren will follow that. We must make room for royalty.

J.H.E. When the Jews came back from the captivity there were those who sought to serve, but their names could not be found in the genealogical register; they were not fit. It is a good thing to trace our genealogy.

J.T. God gives it to us and we should trace it and value it too, because we are derived from Christ.

R.W.S. Had you something more in your mind about the barrenness here, and Isaac entreating Jehovah for his wife because she was barren? The assembly was alluded to in this connection, as to God's power coming in in relation to the assembly.

J.T. Well, it was to bring out the power of God; the power of God overcomes the barrenness. That is all I would say about it. But I would like to hear what you have to say.

R.W.S. I thought there was a remark made applying it to the assembly today, Rebecca being a type of the assembly, but I cannot follow it myself. I thought you had something more in your mind.

J.T. I have nothing on my mind as to begetting, as to children being derived from Isaac and Rebecca, if that is what is in mind. I have nothing in my mind about that; I should not like to speak of that in connection with the assembly.

A.N.W. Isaac entreating for his wife has been compared with the Lord's thoughts about the assembly.

J.T. But I would not have the thought that it relates to any progeny that would come from Rebecca; I would not have that in mind.

C.A.M. Although Rebecca was kindred to Isaac she was still in this distant country and needing to be brought to him. Is there not a sort of process that goes on in connection with the formation of the assembly?

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J.T. Quite so.

J.H.E. Do we not get in the early days that "the Lord added ... daily"? Acts 2:47. Would that not be the power to add?

J.T. Yes, but that is not derivation from parents, unless we speak of God as a Parent; but it does not allow the thought of Rebecca as a mother. There is nothing of that kind. It is a question of "the Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved" Acts 2:47, it is those that were to be saved, that is all. It is not that they were to be born. In John 3, of course, we have: "Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", John 3:3. But that is not the idea in Acts 2.

J.H.E. John 1 says, "To them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God", John 1:12,13.

J.T. "But of God", not of any mother, it is just God.

E.A.L. When we think of the difference in these twins that were born to Rebecca it is just sovereignty on the part of God.

J.T. Oh, quite so, it is not to introduce members of the assembly. I do not understand that. It is a question of God if we speak of those of the assembly, "born of God".

J.T.Jr. We know something about it as understanding something of the power of God; it is known experimentally.

S.C.M. In Hebrews 2 it says, "And again, Behold, I and the children which God has given me", Hebrews 2:13. Is that not some suggestion of the corn of wheat falling into the ground and dying and bringing forth fruit?

J.T. That is quoted from Isaiah, "the children which God has given me".

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A.N.W. How far would Genesis 1 go? It says, "God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply", Genesis 1:28. How far would that go?

J.T. Well, that is the race, just the generation of the human race; they were the parents of the race, that is all.

R.D.G. Did Isaac outshine his father Abraham in that he took the matter of the barrenness to God? Abraham did not do that apparently.

J.T. Quite right; Isaac did it and God answered it. But I would connect the first of Genesis with the human race; Adam and Eve were the parents of it. It is no question of the assembly there, it is just the human race.

Rem. Isaac, in taking the matter to God, acted much more sympathetically and comelily than Elkanah, the husband of Hannah, who seems to have had no exercise about the matter at all.

J.T. Well, quite so; but we cannot make things fit exactly, they are recorded as they happened; the Spirit of God is sovereign in it all; the whole matter is inspired. I would be afraid of not making enough of the actual facts that are mentioned in relation to creation and to the human race. We must go by the facts and be spiritually discerning in what we say.

Rem. The hymn says, "O God, the thought was Thine, Thine only could it be" (Hymn 92).

F.W. Does it emphasize the development of the divine operations, and that these go on at the same time that the natural generations go on, and that God is intervening on His own side to bring in His own thoughts?

J.T. Quite so, and let us seek to follow them and seek to be spiritual, comparing spiritual with spiritual and not going too far either way but being careful in what we are saying and doing. To look at Isaac and Rebecca as parents of members of the

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assembly I would not like at all; I do not think that is intended.

R.W.S. I am glad it is being enlarged upon, I see what you mean; it is the power of God in the circumstances indicated here.

J.T. Quite so, it is the power of God; it is not the father and the mother, it is just God.

J.T.Jr. So the Lord said to the Sadducees, "Ye err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God", Matthew 22:29. They were bringing the family relations into the thought of resurrection. It is a question therefore of the power of God.

A.N.W. Isaac's prayer is evidently in accord with the divine mind, for it says Jehovah was entreated of him. He yielded to his entreaty.

J.T. And that is all there is to it, it is just a fact.

C.A.M. The mighty workings and the power of God which you have been stressing involve the fact that the assembly belongs to a world of things beyond the natural; beyond death in resurrection.

J.T. Well, these are all facts that are borne out by Scripture. I would take them just as they are and seek to see that there is what is spiritual, but that there is also the natural, creative side that enters into all this matter. Adam was created, but Eve was taken out of Adam, but not by birth, it is the power of God; it is a miracle, and there is no repetition of that.

Ques. In Revelation 19 it says, "The marriage of the Lamb is come", Revelation 19:7. Is there any fruit or issue from that marriage?

J.T. Not at all, I do not think that is admissible at all.

Ques. Is the spiritual side seen in Ephesians 1 where it speaks of the power of God "which he wrought in the Christ in raising him from among the dead" Ephesians 1:20; and then later it says, "and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills all in all"? Ephesians 1:22,23.

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J.T. Well, there is no idea of a mother there. It is a question of God; the resurrection is the power of God, and believers have to come into that experimentally, to be raised from the dead.

A.R. Does verse 12 of chapter 26 suggest the same idea of the power of God in the creation? It says, "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold; and Jehovah blessed him". It is the power of God in creation.

J.T. Quite so, it is just the fact of the matter.

D.P. Are Isaac and Rebecca then the prominent thought, and to be viewed, as types, apart from the ordinary circumstances of this chapter?

J.T. Surely, viewed separately.

D.P. As Christ and the assembly?

J.T. But not Christ and the assembly as begetting children, nothing of that kind. I feel that there is some confusion in applying this idea of parents begetting children when it is just the natural thought. We have to work out the spiritual and see whether we are accurate in what we are saying.

Rem. There are no children spoken of in the outline in chapter 24.

J.T. Because in chapter 24 it is really a question of the type, what Isaac and Rebecca mean, that is all; it suggests Christ and the assembly.

A.N.W. So that the type would seem to end when you view the feminine side as the complement of the man.

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. Does not the Lord Jesus make that very clear in connection with the resurrection world and all beyond? What we know in this way of generation is all ended. "Jesus said to them, The sons of this world marry and are given in marriage, but they who are counted worthy to have part in that world, and the resurrection from among the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; for neither can they die any more, for they are equal to angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection", Luke 20:34 - 36.

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J.T. I was thinking of that; it is a question of being as the angels, "sons of God, being sons of the resurrection". There is no idea at all of fruit-bearing. It is a question of being sons of the resurrection.

R.W.S. This all seems very important lest we carry the types too far and become fanciful and confused.

J.T. Well, I think so; I am concerned that we go by the Scriptures accurately, get the facts by Scripture.

F.N.W. Is it not important that what we may learn from the Old Testament is regulated by what we have in the New, particularly by what the Lord has given us through the apostle Paul?

J.T. Quite so, it is New and Old, that is the principle; the New Testament begins everything. You must learn everything on those lines from the New Testament. Not that the Old Testament does not yield, it does; but we begin with the New.

J.T.Jr. When allusion is made to our birth in Galatians, Isaac is in mind; it is like the birth of Isaac; not a material thought, but according to promise. The pattern is brought in there, in Isaac.

J.T. We should proceed now to chapter 26. We have touched on chapter 25 and now we want to see how Isaac sowed and reaped in the land: "And Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold"; that is just an ordinary event, an occurrence. Isaac was a farmer and he was getting a hundredfold on the principle of farming.

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A.N.W. And he became great; "And the man became great, and he became continually greater, until he was very great". He was "very great".

J.H.E. Is not the secret in that Jehovah blessed him? That is the principle, is it not?

J.T. Yes; but they are not other than ordinary facts that Isaac became great and was prosperous in what he was doing, just as other people have been prospered. And then it goes on to say, "And Isaac departed thence, and pitched his camp in the valley of Gerar, and dwelt there". I understand the word Gerar refers to a circle. "And Isaac dug again the wells of water that they had dug in the days of Abraham his father"; so that the work of Abraham is carried through, but evidently somewhat checked by the power of the Philistines, which God allowed. And so we go right through to verse 21, "And they dug another well, and they strove for that also; and he called the name of it Sitnah", meaning 'opposition', there was opposition. "And he removed thence and dug another well; and they did not strive for that. And he called the name of it Rehoboth", which means 'broadways', that is, room is being made for Isaac under God. This is ordinary, not miraculous, it is just God acting for Isaac.

F.N.W. Does Isaac here typify the believer or Christ?

J.T. Well, it is something that we have to look into to see how he gained and what happened to him in a godly way, because evidently God was blessing him on the line of godliness. He was the son of Abraham.

J.T.Jr. He would have to contend with the features of the flesh in man; and so we see, I suppose, how he deals with it, moving on to a place where there is room, where the thing is not overwhelming him any more.

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J.T. Just so; and so he called the name of the place, "Rehoboth", and said, "For now Jehovah has made room for us". That is just an ordinary event and shows that God is blessing him.

A.B.P. Is the value of it that he brings God into it?

J.T. Yes; he brings God into it; it is a godly matter; the man is godly.

A.B.P. We are told that God sends the rain upon the just and the unjust alike.

J.T. Just so; just as anyone of us might be blessed, even today; only we would not be content with ordinary physical blessing; we want to be spiritual. And so verse 23 says, "And he went up thence to Beer-sheba. And Jehovah appeared to him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for my servant Abraham's sake". These are all ordinary matters, but God is in them. And then further, "And he built an altar there, and called upon the name of Jehovah. And he pitched his tent there; and there Isaac's servants dug a well. And Abimelech, and Ahuzzath his friend, and Phichol the captain of his host, went to him from Gerar. And Isaac said to them, Why are ye come to me, seeing ye hate me, and have driven me away from you?" Now these are all ordinary matters, but God is helping in them. "And they said, We saw certainly that Jehovah is with thee; and we said, Let there be then an oath between us -- between us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee, that thou wilt do us no wrong, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done to thee nothing but good, and have let thee go in peace; thou art now blessed of Jehovah". That is what they said to him; that is, these Philistines have come to see that God is with

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Isaac. Of course we might see it among ourselves here, that God is with us.

R.W.S. Isaac has been defending the testimony right through, and especially the testimony relating to the Spirit, and so God honours him. Is the thought that this is open for us today, just as it was for Isaac?

J.T. Quite so; it is a question of our being godly and bringing God into things -- which we are doing, thank God.

C.A.M. Would not the circumstances surrounding the wells here -- one meaning 'quarrel' and the other 'opposition' -- tend to quiet us with regard to any difficulties there are as to the truth of the Spirit? Such difficulties are existent, but we are not to be troubled about them.

J.T. Just so, while recognizing that we have to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. Every bit of truth that comes out is usually opposed, but God helps us, and the truth is caused to stand.

A.R. There is one well here that suggests what is very large, it is named Rehoboth which means 'broadways'. But then there is another one in verse 33 which is spoken of in relation to a city; it says, "We have found water. And he called it Shebah; therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba to this day". It is very extensive, is it not?

J.T. So that we might say that this is Isaac's chapter, so to speak. It is the truth as to Isaac. Then we come down to the next chapter where it is a question of his becoming old, another matter altogether. But we ought to particularly dwell on chapter 26 if we want the full truth as to Isaac.

J.T.Jr. I suppose he becomes morally greater than the elements involved in those that came up to see him, Abimelech and his captain and his friend.

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J.T. There was moral greatness with Isaac because he overcame the difficulties. Instead of the quarrel being increased they left him in friendliness.

J.T.Jr. That should be so with us, there should be moral supremacy in the believer. As he moves through the world he should be morally superior to the evil with which he has to contend.

J.T. It is real victory when that is so; and God is ready to give it to us.

J.T.Jr. Then there is peace, there is not a quarrel but peace. It is remarkable that he sends them away without any bad feeling as they leave.

F.N.W. And does not God quickly answer that faithfulness? It says in verse 24, "And Jehovah appeared to him the same night"; and again in verse 32, "And it came to pass the same day".

J.T. Showing that God was working with him, a real work was going on. Chapter 26 is really Isaac's chapter where you get the full truth as to Isaac. And then we come on to chapter 27 and there is a sad situation. It says, "And it came to pass when Isaac had become old, and his eyes were dim" Genesis 27:1, and so forth. There is an entire change in the history of Isaac.

J.H.E. Referring to Hymn 24: "Through weakness and defeat He won the meed and crown", would not Isaac show the spirit of Christ in chapter 26 in that there was no opposition and so God came in for him?

J.T. "Trod all our foes beneath His feet, In being trodden down" (Hymn 24), that is the truth.

A.R. Does manhood develop in Rebecca in selecting Jacob as the man of God's promise?

J.T. Well, it does. Manhood is seen in the woman, too, in a sense. But we have a sad picture here as compared with chapter 26. So Esau says in verse 1, "Here am I". And then Isaac says, "Behold now, I am become old; I know not the day of my death", Genesis 27:1,2.

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That is what Isaac says; it is rather sad; it is a different note altogether from chapter 26 and a different note from Abraham's history, too, but we have to face all these things and ask why they should be.

E.A.L. You mean that he was weak in saying, "I know not the day of my death"? Genesis 27:1. You have been saying recently that the believer should not be looking for death or be occupied with it.

J.T. I do say that and I think it is a very comforting thing that we are not looking for death but for the coming of the Lord. So that it is a sad picture in this chapter. Again it says in verse 6 -- and this is another contrivance -- "And Rebecca spoke to Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak to Esau thy brother, saying, Bring me venison, and prepare me a savoury dish, that I may eat, and bless thee before Jehovah, before my death. And now, my son, hearken to my voice in that which I command thee. Go, I pray thee, to the flock, and fetch me thence two good kids of the goats. And I will make of them a savoury dish for thy father, such as he loves. And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, in order that he may bless thee before his death. And Jacob said to Rebecca his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man. My father perhaps will feel me, and I shall be in his sight as one who mocks him, and I shall bring a curse on me, and not a blessing. And his mother said to him, On me be thy curse, my son! Only hearken to my voice, and go, fetch them. And he went, and fetched and brought them to his mother. And his mother prepared a savoury dish such as his father loved. And Rebecca took the clothes of her elder son Esau, the costly ones which were with her in the house, and put them on Jacob her younger son; and she put the skins of the kids of the goats on his hands, and on the smooth of his neck; and she gave the savoury dishes and the bread that she had prepared into the hand of her son Jacob".

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So that we see, alas! the sad side of the truth, and it is to warn us, every one of us, that God may be blessing us and yet we may be marring everything that He is doing for us by having recourse to clever unfair methods, unseemly methods; and that is what happened here.

Ques. On whom is the reflection here, is it on Isaac or on Rebecca?

J.T. On both.

Rem. The reason I asked was that if Rebecca had not done this it would appear that Esau would have been blessed instead of Jacob.

J.T. Well, but God would have seen to that. Esau was blessed to a point, but not the full blessing that Isaac intended to give him.

A.N.W. Can we give Rebecca a credit mark in verse 13, "On me be thy curse, my son!"?

J.T. Well, quite so, she accepted the responsibility there. But the whole matter is humbling that the saints of God, who are prospering generally, should have recourse to such methods as seen in Jacob and Rebecca here.

R.W.S. So would chapter 26 bear upon the fruit of the Spirit, and chapter 27 more upon the works of the flesh?

J.T. Just so, the works of the flesh in the unseemly course they pursued, both Rebecca and Jacob. And even Isaac too was brought into it; he had become blind; that is a humbling thing too, that a spiritual man should become blind. I mean to say these are things that we might just as well face, and get something out of them.

J.T.Jr. Nothing can hinder the purpose of God. We could not say that the purpose of God would not have gone through if Rebecca had not done this, if she had not taken it into her own hand.

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J.T. Just so.

F.W. Is it not solemn that even in an epistle such as Ephesians the apostle has to draw attention to the subject of lying? But although he exhorts as to the evil of lying, yet the purposes of God go through. Would you say something of the prevalence of lying that there is to be found even amongst the saints?

J.T. "Do not lie to one another", Colossians 3:9. We are likely to do that, likely to say untrue things and perhaps know that we are doing it. It is a most humbling thing that it should happen! And I think we should all learn from what is before us now, the sorrowful side that we have had to consider here in chapter 27.

J.H.E. If we lie to one another we lie to divine Persons, in principle, inasmuch as the Holy Spirit indwells us.

S.C.M. Do we not see that in the case of Ananias and Sapphira in the Acts where they are said to have lied to the Holy Spirit?

J.T. It is so serious there in Acts 5; most serious that such things should happen among the saints of God and such saints as were at Jerusalem at that time.

Ques. Is it not comforting that notwithstanding these humbling circumstances to which you are drawing attention, it says in Hebrews that Isaac blessed them by faith? "By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau", Hebrews 11:20.

J.T. Quite So. God puts the best side on it there, that it was done by faith, which is just like God.

J.T.Jr. Is not the allusion there to what Isaac said? Is that not what is in mind in Hebrews? It is a question of what Isaac said, it is what God had purposed regarding Jacob and Esau. So that he blessed them in faith.

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Ques. So Isaac did recover himself, would you say? In verse 33 of our chapter Isaac said to Esau, "I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him; also blessed he shall be".

J.T. Yes, he stands firmly by the truth; "Blessed he shall be", he says. So that the purpose of God went through unfailingly, and it always will go through. God will have His way.

D.P. Were Isaac and Rebecca not lacking in unity regarding the right man?

J.T. Yes, because Jacob was the right man. He was God's man in this case, not Esau. God overruled it, His purposes went through, and that is the thing to keep before us; and the other thing to keep before us is not to resort to mean methods and lying. We are told not to lie to one another.

C.F.E. At the same time Jacob was acting under parental influence, was he not?

J.T. Well, he was; Rebecca, you might say, was more wrong than he.

R.H.S. The reference to Ephesians is a searching matter because it is not, as it says in the foot-note to chapter 4: 25, not merely the act of lying, but that which has the character and nature of falsehood. You said lately that we should have plain speaking.

A.R. So that in the assembly everything should be based on established facts, as it says, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established", 2 Corinthians 13:1.

J.T. "Every word", just so, every word; not every sentence, but every word.

Ques. Was Jacob passing any judgment on himself when he said to Pharaoh in Genesis 47, "Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and they do not attain to the days of the years of the life of my fathers"? Genesis 47:9.

J.T. Very good, he was humble there.

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MAN (8)

Genesis 28:1 - 22; Genesis 32:13 - 32.

J.T. It is thought that the two sections read at this time will afford us much light as to humanity as it appeared in Jacob; perhaps the most important character in the book of Genesis, next to Abraham. We have had humanity before us in these readings for several months, and the idea now is to look at it as seen in Jacob. We get humanity set out in a remarkable way in the whole book of Genesis, but peculiarly in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which affords us much in the matter before us. We have no doubt seen what has been said about these three, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in The Collected Writings; that Abraham is the source, or root of promise, Isaac the heavenly man, and Jacob represents the earthly side of the truth. So that we come now to Jacob, and no doubt the Lord will help us, because the idea of humanity ought to be in our own minds as to what characteristics apply to each of us.

A.B.P. Does the fact that he entered into struggle even before his birth suggest a clue as to the features that came out in him?

J.T. Therefore the ground is laid now for us to consider what should mark brethren; for Esau and Jacob were twins, and the relation of twins certainly ought to bring out what persons are in their human characteristics.

A.J.G. I would like a little help as to what is in mind as to Jacob and the earthly side, referring to the earthly side in its application to us.

J.T. It is a matter of what we have to do in everyday life, I would say; our relations in everyday life, and especially in relation to our brethren. What we are as brethren would be the main thought. We want to get what Jacob is characteristically as a man, because we are dealing with man.

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R.W.S. It is not man as such, but man as the product of the work of God which we are looking at in this series, is it not?

J.T. That is what is important; man as unregenerate is of little or no importance to us, not of any importance to heaven. It is man as important before God that is particularly before us; not as in his natural state, because after all what he is naturally is a story soon told. What is in our minds now is what he is before God, as having been wrought by God; otherwise there would be nothing worth speaking of.

Ques. Does that involve the work of God beginning in new birth?

J.T. Just so, so John gives it; John will be our subject for the moment. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. It is a question of the Word. "He was in the beginning with God. All things received being through him, and without him not one thing received being which has received being. In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:2 - 4. That is the thing that we might rest on for the moment; life as seen in man in the sense in which God regards it. "In him was life, and the life was the light of men"; that is to say, man was the idea. "And the light appears in darkness, and the darkness apprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, his name John. He came for witness, that he might witness concerning the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but that he might witness concerning the light. The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man. He was in the world, and the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not. He came to his own, and his own received him not; but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth; (John bears witness of him, and he has cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me;) for of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace. For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:5 - 18.

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I thought it would be worth while to just rest on this section in John's gospel so as to get the true idea of humanity as before God, in Christ Himself; that is the very highest thought of it. It is wonderful that a divine Person should become man. The true idea must be seen there; that is, in that Man. And so "the life was the light of men"; it is a question of man.

J.T.Jr. So the outshining of the life of Jesus would produce light for men.

J.T. It was the light of men, just so; showing that, as has often been remarked, it was not the light of angels, it is the order of being that man is. That God Himself in the Lord Jesus should become man is marvellous, the most marvellous thing of all; that He is as one of us, one of our kind, in that sense. But He is God, God Himself, God as man.

A.R. Is He like the sun? It says in verse 9, "The true light was that which, coming into the world, lightens every man", John 1:9.

J.T. Exactly; but it was the true light, that is to say it was light for man. The true light is for man.

E.E.H. "We have contemplated his glory"; is that the glory of manhood?

J.T. Quite so, the glory is "as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1:14 one in that relation, the most exalted

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relation; that is, Man in relation to the Father: "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", notice that, "in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him", John 1:18.

A.N.W. "In him was life": does that differ at all from the statement in John 5:26? "For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is Son of man".

J.T. "Son of man", just so, it is to bring out man in that relation, not simply as Son of God, but Son of man; it is another wonderful thought that the Son of man is also the Son of God, and that the Son of God is the Son of man. He comes down within our range to be apprehended; it is the wonderful thought of manhood in a divine Person. It affects your heart that it is possible, that God Himself should be here, that it is no less than God. "He is the true God", it is said, "and eternal life", 1 John 5:20. That is in John's epistle.

E.A.L. In John 1 it says, "Nathanael answered and said to him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel", John 1:49. He put the Son of God first there.

J.T. But there is more than that, you will have to read more to get the full thought.

E.A.L. "Jesus answered and said to him, Because I said to thee, I saw thee under the fig-tree, believest thou? Thou shalt see greater things than these. And he says to him, Verily, verily, I say to you, Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man", John 1:50,51.

J.T. "The angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man", that is the idea. It is to bring out manhood in the Son; I mean manhood in the expression, "the Son of man" -- "the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man", John 1:51.

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The allusion is to Jacob in the book of Genesis. Would you say that, Mr. G.?

A.J.G. I was thinking that. It would mean that man has the foremost place in the mind of God, would it not? You were stressing that a divine Person has become man, that God has entered into manhood in the Person of Jesus; and is that not because the greatest thoughts of God are bound up with man, and not with any other order of creature?

J.T. And so in verse 26 of Genesis 1 it says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness", Genesis 1:26 that is the divine thought. God had Jesus in His mind. But He had to wait for hundreds of years to see man in Jesus, and that is the wonderful feature of the whole subject, the recency of man and yet the greatness of man. There could be nothing greater, because the Man alluded to is the Son of God. There could be no one greater.

Rem. The greatness of man is seen in the fact that while in John 1 the Lord is spoken of as the light of men, in Revelation 21 it says of the city that the nations shall walk in its light; showing how characteristic she is of Christ, Christ being the light of men. The city in that day will shine upon the nations.

F.N.W. I would like further help as to the link of the Son of man in John 1 with Jacob. Is it in your mind that the Lord Jesus here as the heavenly One has a certain relation to the earthly side of things which Jacob represents?

J.T. Well, He became man and moved about on the earth. He went from infancy to boyhood and to manhood, so that all those phases were filled out by that glorious Person. All the phases proper to man were seen in that glorious Person in everyday, ordinary life, we might say.

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A.R. You get the same idea in Genesis 28 as you get in John's gospel; it says, "And behold, angels of God ascended and descended upon it", that is, the angels go up before they come down, and the same idea is in John's gospel. Is that suggestive that man is the centre of everything?

J.T. So Pilate says, "Behold the man!" We are to pray for all men according to 1 Timothy 2"I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity; for this is good and acceptable before our Saviour God, who desires that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth", 1 Timothy 2:1 - 4. And further, "For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. That is it, "the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus"; that is the thing that I thought we should get clearly before us, the man Christ Jesus. So as we are here this afternoon it is a question of each one challenging his own heart as to what he is as a man, or as a woman, for the word man covers both. "Let us make man in our image", Genesis 1:26 and then immediately you have the plural: "let them have dominion". So that the man and the woman reign, or rule, together.

J.H.E. In our chapter Isaac would be concerned that Jacob should have a helpmate; as it says in the early verses, "Arise, go to Padan-Aram". He is concerned that his son should have a proper helpmate.

J.T. So that now, to be simple and practical, we have to challenge ourselves as husbands and wives as to this matter of humanity. It is the kind of humanity we have as the subjects of the work of God, that kind of humanity; that is, Christ would be seen in us, "the man Christ Jesus".

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J.T.Jr. The work of God would bring about the same features in all of us, so that national features and original fleshly features would disappear.

J.T. Quite so; the same features must come out in the wife as in the husband. And then too in the male and female children. The whole point is what kind of man there is in the household, because God has before Him to bring about an order of man that is suitable to Him, whether on the earth or in the heavens. Presently in the millennium it will be on the earth; in the meantime it is what is in the assembly, the heavenly side; we are a heavenly people.

A.J.G. So that the saints are said to be "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has before prepared that we should walk in them", Ephesians 2:10. Is that manhood according to God seen practically down here?

J.T. Just so; the works were "before prepared that we should walk in them"; God has prepared them, they represent the kind of thing that we should be. Wonderful that there should be a pattern set before us in that sense! And I think Peter alludes to that when he says that we "should follow in his steps", 1 Peter 2:21.

A.B.P. Would the various exercises that Jacob went through teach him experimentally that God is taking away the first that He might establish the second?

J.T. So that his name is changed; that is what we shall come to in chapter 32, that the man's name is changed. He is alone with God; his wives and children are detached from him so that he is alone with God and God has dealings with him and cripples him, so that he might be made subject and humble through being crippled.

V.C.L. In chapter 27 Isaac, in blessing Jacob, says to him, "Let peoples serve thee ... Be lord over thy brethren", Genesis 27:29.

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Is that what he was reaching in all this experience that God was passing him through, so that when his name is changed he is equal to it?

J.T. So that he can be lord; God has a man suitable to rule. Therefore we have to pray for kings and all that are in authority; we are exhorted to pray for men.

R.W.S. Is the long time that is involved in this process to be a voice to us? Years and years were required in the history of Jacob to work this out. I am thinking of the twenty years at Padan-Aram, for instance. He does not arrive at God's thought immediately, and I suppose we do not either.

J.T. Quite so, and we have to learn from what is seen in him. As we run down through Genesis we shall see at the end how Jacob crosses his hands wittingly; he knew then how things were to be; that is, he had been learning in the school of God.

R.W.S. It has been an encouragement to me that it took Jacob so long to learn because it takes us a long time. But perhaps we should not excuse ourselves on that account but seek to move on more rapidly than Jacob did.

J.T. We have to wait for the incarnation to bring out everything. We do not get it all in the book of Genesis nor in any of the Old Testament books; we have to wait for the incarnation, that is where we get man according to God.

R.W.S. It helps to have before us the divine standard in John 1 before we come down to Jacob.

J.T. Just so, we have to come to the incarnation, the wonders of the incarnation. That is what bows our hearts, and it should bow our hearts.

Rem. Despite the deflections of Jacob and the long way by which he arrived at this point, yet there would be something of God in his history which God could take account of?

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J.T. Quite so; whatever God had wrought was there; but how comparatively little when you come to the great idea as set out in Christ! How immense it is, manhood in Christ! "One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"; 1 Timothy 2:5 not the babe, nor the boy, but 'the man' Christ Jesus. That is what is before us.

A.J.G. Is that what is referred to in the first epistle of John where it speaks of the word of life? I was thinking of the opening of that epistle. It speaks of the word of life and what the apostles had contemplated and handled, and I wondered whether that is in keeping with what you have been saying as to life in man according to God, set out in Christ?

J.T. Just so; there it is the 'word' of it, that is to say the intelligent expression of it.

A.J.G. Quite so, and I thought that corresponded with the expression that the life was the light of men; that there was a life in the presence of men conveying to men intelligently what God's thoughts for man are and setting out the standard that God is intending to bring the saints to.

J.T. I suppose it is the whole thought of heaven just now, to bring out the idea of man as God intends it to be seen in the assembly; the great vessel in which He is to be expressed, the assembly.

T.E.H. I want to ask a question in relation to the oblation, which I understand relates to fine flour. I was wondering if that was the offering of the thief on the cross as he contemplated the manhood of Christ. As he was about to go into death he discovers that there is none perfect but Jesus, and he says, "This man has done nothing amiss", Luke 23:41. Is that true manhood?

J.T. Just so, the fine flour is the quality of manhood in Christ; that is the idea of it. The fineness of the ingredient of which the bread was

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made suggests what Christ is, the fineness of the quality of the humanity of Christ. That is what God has in mind for us, and He is working for it day and night with us. All these meetings are to bring it about, to bring about the order of man that is set out in Christ. God has it in mind to bring it about in those who form the assembly.

A.J.G. In this process of His ways with Jacob why does God commence with the light of the house of God?

J.T. I think that would be a great thought in the divine order here on earth; the great thought would be seen in God's house. If God is going to have man before Him, He will have him in the house, He will have a house for him; that is, we are brought into God's house and we are to know how to behave ourselves in it, for it is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. I think it ought to work out thus.

A.J.G. So that God Himself, as known in His house, shall become the Standard, is that it?

J.T. Just so, and that there shall be the feelings and affections that belong to a house; God has that in mind for us.

A.N.W. Is that why all men are prayed for? We are to pray for all men and for those in authority.

J.T. Quite so; that makes the whole matter dependent on God; the principle of our prayers is to make the whole matter dependent upon God and that involves the matter of manhood.

A.J.G. You mean that a feature of true manhood is dependence on God, that that is man's mooring, so to speak?

J.T. Just so, and that is seen in the Lord Jesus, I would say; entire dependence on God. He would do nothing of Himself.

A.R. And is true manhood seen in relation to our prayers for all men?

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J.T. Exactly; the whole world you might say is dependent on the saints; God has placed it that way. Whatever the world may think of the saints, that is the position. God has put the matter in the assembly and the Spirit of God is there. He is not in the air, He is in the assembly, and it is a question of what we are so as to be, as it were, representatives of it.

A.R. So we are here in relation to men?

J.T. Quite so.

D.P. In Genesis 47:7, when Joseph brought his father Jacob and set him before Pharaoh, Joseph would be conscious of the dignity of manhood in his father as before Pharaoh.

J.T. He was superior to Pharaoh really.

A.N.W. It says that Jacob blessed Pharaoh, and we are told that the lesser is blessed of the greater.

V.C.L. Is there not a very affecting touch to encourage anyone who desires to be marked by this manhood in that it says as to the ladder, "Behold, Jehovah stood above it"? The note says that the word 'stood' is the same as that used when the three men stood by Abraham's tent. Would that not be God placing His thought before Jacob so that he might rise to the fulness of it?

J.T. Just so, Jehovah would take a position where He would be seen or apprehended fully. The position is not casual. The word 'stand' there means that it is not a casual stand, of no importance; it is of great importance because He would set out something in the standing, in the position He took up; His mind would be seen there.

Rem. In this passage, with God standing at the top of the ladder, there was distance between Jacob and God; but in chapter 35 we find that distance removed, for it says, "And God went up from him in the place where he had talked with him", Genesis 35:13.

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J.T. Quite so; we have to compare the differences as the history goes on because Genesis covers the whole history of what Jacob was and that history culminates in Jacob crossing his hands wittingly, he knew what he was doing, he was intelligent. That is the point with God, to make us intelligent; that is a solid idea, like the wall; it is a solid idea of manhood.

J.T.Jr. Would this line of thought in Jacob begin with the fact that he is obedient? He goes out under his father's directions and thus becomes detached from everything and is alone with God.

J.T. Quite so, that is what Esau noticed. It says, "And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said to him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan. Arise, go to Padan-Aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father, and take a wife thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother. And the Almighty God bless thee, and make thee fruitful and multiply thee, that thou mayest become a company of peoples. And may he give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee and to thy seed with thee, in order that thou mayest possess the land of thy sojourning, which God gave to Abraham!" That is, Jacob is to come into the inheritance, to come into it as a true man; that is the idea of it.

R.D.G. Man's idea was to build a tower, the top of it to reach to heaven; but now here is a ladder and the top of it does reach to heaven. Is the suggestion that God is coming down and that man is to be taken up to heaven?

J.T. I think so; God was in right relations with Jacob, and Jacob with Him. The divine idea is that Jacob should come into the inheritance, and that he should come into it in the character of Abraham, fully representing Abraham. There was to be full representation of Abraham, no deterioration

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whatever. So that Abraham has no generations mentioned, it is a question of the heavenly man. Abraham is the heavenly man, in that sense, and he has to have a representative here; and if it be Jacob, let Jacob be like Abraham. So it is with every one of us, we are to be like Christ.

E.A.L. Had Isaac a sense that Jacob would be obedient? Esau was not obedient, indeed he was directly disobedient.

J.T. He shows the very opposite of obedience in that he goes out and marries strange women; and one great difficulty among brethren now is mixed marriages. It is one of the most baneful things amongst us. So that we are to be watchful as to those whom we marry that we get the right kind of humanity, of female humanity.

R.W.S. Would not the great place the Spirit has acquired recently, not only in new birth but in our becoming increasingly familiar with Him promote this order of manhood?

J.T. Quite so; but I was just going to emphasize again the danger of mixed marriages, marriages with persons who are not the right kind of humanity femininely. The brothers are to be careful about this, and the fathers and the mothers must look after their children as to it that we continue what is the mind of God in the assembly at all costs.

A.J.G. The angels come in here as ascending and descending, and then they appear again in chapter 32. I wondered if that was to confirm us in the sense that we need not be afraid to commit ourselves to what God is working in us; that angels are there, if need be, to serve us, and to make way for the work of God.

J.T. Just so, and you could add to that, "Are they not all ministering spirits ... ?", Hebrews 1:4.

Ques. Is there not also a feature of manhood in Jacob in that, in his flight, he carries oil with him?

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He poured oil upon the top of the stone that he set up for a pillar.

J.T. It is an anointed pillar therefore, and that indicates the Spirit; it is typical of Abraham and of what the mind of God was for Jacob, that he was to be anointed. That is the kind of man God had in mind that he should be. He was to be such as Abraham had been.

Rem. Abraham, in sending his servant for a bride for Isaac, merely said that he was to go to his kindred, but in connection with Jacob, Isaac is much more exact and accurate about the matter. Is that not the case today? At one time our concept of the standard was much more general; today, however, with the development of the truth, we are much more specific. We say that only those breaking bread should marry each other. Would that be on the line of Jacob, that the actual family is specified?

J.T. I would go with that.

A.N.W. The mother's side must be right as well as the father's side. Esau finds a link on Abraham's side, but not on the mother's side; he marries one of Ishmael's daughters.

J.T. Showing how degeneration is set out in Abraham's family; and Ishmael of course would be that; it was through a compromise of Sarah's to have a family that Ishmael was brought in. He should never have been there, although God undertook to bless him because he was Abraham's son, showing the liberality of God in dealing with His people.

A.N.W. Some of the young may be inclined to think that it is good enough to be right on the father's side; I mean that they tell us that the young man or the young woman is a believer. But that is not enough. It must be: "in the Lord".

J.T. Marriage "in the Lord" is a fine expression; "only in the Lord" 1 Corinthians 7:39 is the word. All our marital

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links are to be in the Lord and only in the Lord. The enemy will get in otherwise.

T.E.H. I was wondering if the suggestion here that he obeyed his father and his mother and went to Padan-Aram is the effect of manhood seen in doing what he is commanded?

J.T. He obeyed his father and his mother, quite so.

A.B.P. Is it not significant that that is brought into Ephesians, "Honour thy father and thy mother ... and that thou mayest be long-lived on the earth"? Ephesians 6:2.

J.T. "And ye fathers, do not provoke your children to anger" Ephesians 6:4; the fathers are enjoined as to that. So that we have to watch that sort of thing if we are to hold our children in the fellowship, to see to it that they are not provoked to anger.

It was in mind in chapter 32 to show the change of Jacob's name, which is a remarkable thing. The whole chapter deals with it. We might read from verse 13: "And he lodged there that night; and took of what came to his hand a gift for Esau his brother -- two hundred she-goats, and twenty he-goats; two hundred ewes, and twenty rams; thirty milch camels with their colts; forty kine, and ten bulls; twenty she-asses, and ten young asses. And he delivered them into the hand of his servants, every drove by itself; and he said to his servants, Go on before me, and put a space between drove and drove. And he commanded the foremost, saying, When Esau my brother meets thee, and asks thee, saying, Whose art thou, and where goest thou, and whose are these before thee? -- then thou shalt say, Thy servant Jacob's: it is a gift sent to my lord, to Esau. And behold, he also is behind us". And now further on, in verse 24 it says: "And Jacob remained alone; and a man wrestled with him until the rising of the dawn. And when he saw that he did not prevail against him, he touched the joint of his thigh; and the joint of Jacob's thigh was dislocated as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the dawn ariseth. And he said, I will not let thee go except thou bless me".

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That is, Jacob clung to God for the blessing, and he got it. But the point that he had in his mind was to appease his brother; God went the whole way with him so that he should appease Esau.

R.W.S. Is that a feature of moving amongst our brethren, that we should gain the offended brother?

J.T. Quite so, that is the great point in chapter 32; Jacob is being brought to right thoughts as to himself, he is crippled so as to make him suitable to meet his brother, to be with his brother, and mingle amongst his brethren. I think that is a great point.

A.R. It is not a question of cattle now, after he wrestles.

J.T. No, it is not cattle now, it is a question of the brother, how he is to be with his brother. Can he secure him?

J.T.Jr. Do you think the impression that he received here would refer, in a certain way, to how God would put an impression upon us that would remain with us all the time and bring out Himself in us?

J.T. What great pains God took with Jacob, to make things right with him; to change his name and make things right with him! The question is raised with him, "What is thy name? And he said, Jacob". He has to confess that, and all that that name had meant heretofore; the name 'Jacob' has to be confessed, the kind of man he had been under that name. But now God is going to change his name and the word is therefore, "Thy name shall not henceforth be called Jacob, but Israel". The word means 'prince of God', that is, he would be a dignified man hereafter through this experience. And that is what God is waiting for and setting Himself

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to bring about in every one of us, that we may be princely, dignified, as in the assembly.

J.T.Jr. It is remarkable how man is stressed here; it says, "a man wrestled with him", and then again it says, "for thou hast wrestled with God, and with men". It is striking how this thought of man is stressed in this section.

J.T. Therefore the first idea would be the question of Christ, the kind of man that is seen in Christ; and Jacob was to take that on. Then he has to do with men, not only with one man, but with men, the brethren.

W.W.M. Do you think that Jacob was doing, in principle, what the Lord enjoined in Matthew 5? "If therefore thou shouldest offer thy gift at the altar, and there shouldest remember that thy brother has something against thee, leave there thy gift before the altar, and first go, be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift", Matthew 5:23.

J.T. That is just it, that is what I believe Jacob came to here; he learned how he was to get along with his brother. But then it is not only our brother, but the brethren, all of them. It is all the brethren, the plural.

W.W.M. So that is a feature of manhood, would you say, and therefore we cannot hope to be on right relations with God if we cannot be on right relations with our brethren.

A.B.P. And also, would you say, unless we can get on with a difficult brother?

J.T. Well, quite so, Esau was that, of course. The fact of the matter is he was hated, God said He had hated Esau; He had loved Jacob, for Jacob was in principle lovable, but Esau was not, not in the eyes of God, at least.

A.J.G. Is it significant that in this gift that Jacob sends to Esau there is a preponderance of the female

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animals as though stressing the subjective formation that there was now in Jacob?

J.T. That is a word to notice; the female thought is therefore to be stressed.

A.N.W. He is none the less a prince because he has to limp; he finishes up limping.

J.T. Quite so, but God did the crippling; it was an act of God to do it, but it was for his good, to discipline him.

A.R. Before that it says, "I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved. And as he passed over Peniel, the sun rose upon him"; and then it says that he limped. It says the sun rose upon him, as if it was a new day.

J.T. That brings out the gracious actions of God in dealing with us; how God came down to this matter to bring about a right state in Jacob so that he could get on with his brethren. It was not only with his brother Esau -- he was ready to do anything for him -- but he has to get on with others as well.

Rem. I think you have linked this thought of Jacob with Paul after he had been caught up to the third heaven and then went through discipline. The Lord says to him, "My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness", 2 Corinthians 12:9.

J.T. Very good, "My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness".

Ques. Why is Paul's name changed from Saul to Paul?

J.T. Paul means little; so that we are not to think too much of ourselves, He was worthy of the change because God would have us to be small, to be little, not to be big in our own minds.

Rem. So Jacob calls Esau, "My lord", and he speaks of himself as Esau's servant. That would show manhood features, that he was prepared to go down

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J.H.E. "For I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved". There is a new day in Jacob's history now. It says that "the sun rose upon him".

J.T. Quite so, a new day; "the sun rose upon him". It does not say upon the world, but upon Jacob.

A.B.P. Would the last verse show that an experience like this has an effect upon all the brethren? They ate no more of the sinew that shrank.

J.T. Well, just so, it is intended for that. God may begin with any one of us and do something with him so that others should be helped. "The sun rose upon him", but then that was to affect him in regard of others as well, as to how to get on with his brethren.

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MAN (9)

Genesis 37:2 - 30; Genesis 45:1 - 15; Genesis 48:8 - 14

J.T. The brethren will be aware that the ground to be covered is large, and that it has been thought well to look at the types first as to this great subject of Man, first mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Genesis 1:26; and further it says, "and let them have dominion". Here the woman, or Eve, would be included in the word "man". And now as we have come to this point in the book of Genesis it is thought that we might link up Jacob with Joseph, that is to say, both together involving the love side, involving love as it is in God and as it in Christ and correspondingly in ourselves. So that we are brought into the circle of love, the love of the Father for the Son, and then the love of the saints one to another. Then particularly I thought we might see the remarkable intelligence that is developed in Jacob even to outstripping his son Joseph. He knew better than Joseph as to the persons that he was naming; he knew exactly what he was doing. So that the thought now will develop into the idea of intelligence in this great subject.

S.W. In speaking of the love between the Father and the Son, have you in mind John 17 where the Lord says, "Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world"? John 17:24.

J.T. Just so, it is a question of the Father and the Son in the love that existed between them; and eternal life too is involved in that, the eternal life: "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent", John 17:3.

J.T.Jr. John would fit in peculiarly with what you have mentioned in regard to love.

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J.T. I thought that; of course we shall come to that in time. But the idea of the types seems to greatly facilitate the subject, so that we get the thing in type before we get it actually in the New Testament.

J.T.Jr. The reference already made to John 17 would fill out the thoughts that have been expressed. As you say, we need to see the types as laying the basis for understanding of what is in the gospels.

J.T. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable" 2 Timothy 3:16; so that the types will help us as we come to the New Testament.

A.B.P. Does Joseph's vest suggest the idea of what is inward -- "In thee I have found my delight"? Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22.

J.T. You are stressing the idea of "in thee" as connected with the coat of many colours?

A.B.P. Yes. I thought that the vest may suggest an inward matter more so than a cloak, for instance, and that, in type, it might be suggestive of what was in the Father's remark: "In thee I have found my delight".

J.H.E. Speaking of intelligence, the apostle Paul says in Ephesians 3:3: "According as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ", Ephesians 3:3. He would have us all to know that.

J.T. It is a great matter that a man like Paul should be apprehended as knowing; that he could say the right thing to instruct persons. He wanted them to know what he knew. It is very important, if we are seeking to serve the Lord, that we might know things. And so the Lord said, "That they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent", John 17:3.

A.R. We noticed earlier that Abraham loved Isaac, his only son; but here Israel is said to love Joseph more than all his sons; he has a special place among his brethren.

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Rem. The scripture says: "These are the generations of Jacob", and then it speaks about Joseph.

J.T. We must wait several chapters before we get the generations as a whole. Joseph comes first in the whole matter. And that is the reason why the thought is to link up Joseph with his father; it is the father and the son, the relationship in which love is seen, and in which it operates. God waited for Christ. You marvel that He has waited so long for Christ to come in.

F.H.L. Does the first verse show the merging of the idea of Jacob and Joseph? It says, "Generations of Jacob. Joseph, being seventeen years old, fed the flock". Distinctive features come to light immediately do they not?

J.T. Just so. You marvel at God's delay, and at the recency in which man has appeared. He had other creatures long before man; we cannot say when angels were created, or other creatures, but we can say historically when man came into being; and he has the first place now in the whole matter because the Son has become man.

S.C.M. It says in verse 2, "And Joseph brought to his father an evil report of them", Do you think there is some suggestion in that of what is said of the Lord in Hebrews 1 that He loved righteousness, and hated lawlessness? It says, "Therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy companions", Hebrews 1:9. The Father has anointed Him.

J.T. "Therefore" -- that is the word; that is why the Father has anointed Him.

R.D.G. Does the statement that Joseph was seventeen years of age suggest that he matured early into manhood?

J.T. Quite so. The facts show that clearly; he developed into manhood early. Therefore, we are enjoined to "quit yourselves like men; be strong", 1 Corinthians 16:13. Manhood is needed in the testimony.

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A.B.P. Is "the word of the Lord" linked on with Joseph in a distinct way, through the dreams and through what we are told in the psalm, that "the word of the Lord tried him"? Would that be another feature of manhood that we should consider?

J.T. Yes. When we come to the Psalms we come to experience, experience with God, and with the brethren too; that is the idea of the Psalms. And so, in the first chapter of Hebrews much is quoted from the Psalms. It is a question of experience; experience with God of course. In what we have now before us in these early chapters of Genesis experience begins to show itself.

D.P. Would manhood involve the judgment of evil and the withdrawal from it?

J.T. Just so.

Rem. It is interesting to see that Joseph was in service at the age of seventeen.

J.T. And so Joseph comes in immediately in the generations, but we have to wait for the others. "These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph", he is the first one mentioned, and it goes on to say, "being seventeen years old, fed the flock with his brethren; and he was doing service", showing that he was acquiring experience with God. It is a great matter for young brothers and sisters to acquire experience with God, and with the brethren too. And then the vest of many colours suggests an inward matter, as has been remarked. You might say that it is a secret thought, distinguishing Joseph, as the Lord was Himself distinguished in every way, in manhood.

Rem. The features of manhood seem to have appeared at a very early age in the Lord's life. At the age of twelve He said that He must be about His Father's business.

J.T. "My Father's business", Luke 2:49 just so; He spoke of that at the age of twelve, according to Luke.

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A.R. Would the coat of many colours suggest the moral glories of Christ?

J.T. I suppose so, so it makes way for the thought of "from glory to glory" 2 Corinthians 3:18; we come into the realm of glory, and the sooner we know that the better, because it is not a matter of what we should be but what we are, what God has made us.

S.C.M. Joseph says, later, "Tell my father of all my glory in Egypt".

J.T. So that we come into a system of glory, and Joseph peculiarly represents that. "And tell my father of all my glory in Egypt"; think of that! And when you apply that to the Lord Jesus, all the glory of heaven is vested in Him.

A.R. John could say, "We have contemplated his glory".

J.T. Yes. "A glory as of an only-begotten with a father", John 1:14.

J.T.Jr. Joseph is singled out here in this way so that we should fix our view on Christ; that is, the other generations, do not come in here.

J.T. So that Christ comes first, in type, and we have to wait for the others, Israel and the millennium have to be waited for; but we have come into the glorious heavenly system.

C.F.E. It is remarkable that his glories should shine forth in a place like Egypt, when he is rejected by his brethren.

J.T. As in the gospels; how the glories of Christ shone out as He moved about in Palestine! And how they are appreciated now by the gentiles! And so the blessings are "on the crown of the head of him that was separated from his brethren", Genesis 49:26

F.H.L. It is well perhaps to note that the coat did not make Joseph glorious; the colours, in that sense, just reflected Jacob's appreciation of what he was in himself in these features of manhood.

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V.C.L. You spoke about eternal life: it says in John's gospel that the Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in His hand, and then it says, "He that believes on the Son has life eternal" John 3:36. Would that be an early issue in our history, as to whether we understand what is in the hands of the Son so that we might have life eternal?

J.T. It comes out early in John, in chapter 1:4: "In him was life, and the life was the light of men" John 1:4, the life was the light of men, not of angels but of men. So that we come into that first; the millennial day will show what is coming in later, but we come into the good of everything now; there is nothing that is not available for us to come into.

G.B. One feels certain that there must be something very precious secretly underlying this love of Israel for his son Joseph; and I am sure we would each one desire to get the gain of that so that we can truly experience the love of the Father, flowing into our hearts, and then to be answering to it responsively. One reason is given why Israel loved Joseph more than all his sons, and that is because he was son of his old age.

J.T. We have already touched on John, "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand" John 3:35. I think that is a wonderful statement. That is the secret, I believe, of all this that we are speaking of. But you have something more in mind?

G.B. Well, we are on a great subject really, and I feel that if our hearts could be touched in some way so that we truly experienced the love of the Father for us, that would surely help us to be established here in manhood.

J.T. And so John's epistles help us greatly, they are so full of this line of the truth. You will have observed that, I am sure.

T.N.W. At the end of John 17 it says, "That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them", John 17:28.

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Would that mean that the Father's love for the Son is now to be in us?

J.T. Yes, and so we get, "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us" 1 John 4:10. "Herein is love", that is the way it is put in John's writings.

G.B. Was it the faithfulness of Joseph that called out the hatred of his brethren?

J.T. Quite so; and we shall always find that to be the case if we are faithful and not afraid to relate to the assembly things done that are not right.

R.W.S. "He came to his own, and his own received him not", it says.

J.T. Very good. But then, "as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God" John 1:11,12. It is those who have been born. It is not new birth there exactly, but born of God; not by the Spirit, even, but of God. The new birth is by the Spirit, but being born in John 1:13 is of God. It is the great work of God seen connected with the idea of birth.

Ques. Did Joseph act wisely in relating his dream in the face of the hatred which was prevalent at the moment? It needed courage in the face of the opposition to relate such as dream.

J.T. Well, his father wondered about it, and rebuked him and said: "What is this dream which thou hast dreamt? Shall we indeed come, I and thy mother and thy brethren, to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father kept the saying". His father was wise, he kept the saying, he did not ridicule it.

Ques. Was not Joseph considering for the truth? He was not considering for himself but for the truth. He stood for what was right.

J.T. Yes, he stood outright for the truth. His brethren hated him, and we shall see that they were

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really determined to kill him; it was only the intervention of Reuben and Judah that protected him, which reminds us that faithfulness will be found amidst unfaithfulness amongst our brethren.

Ques. Is this what we get in John's gospel? The Lord Jesus is seen there as saying, "Before Abraham was, I am. They took up therefore stones that they might cast them at him" John 8:58. Is that the idea?

J.T. That is exactly the answer to the type.

J.H.E. We do well to take heed to this, We may not understand everything as it is presented but if we ponder over it the Spirit will help us.

J.T. Quite so; pondering is a good word. Mary pondered things in her heart, and here Jacob "kept the saying".

A.N.G. Would the dreams come in, in a certain sense, as a corroboration of the vest of many colours? That was the sign of the father's approval, but now heaven is taking a hand in the matter, indicating the ability of this person, in type, to rule both in heaven and on earth.

J.T. Yes; heaven is taking a hand in the matter. We have seen that when adverse things happen in the world; we have seen God coming in, as we do now in relation to trade unionism; we see God's hand coming in to intervene and help the brethren.

Ques. Is the second dream the greater of the two? In the first dream the sheaves bow down before the one sheaf; one like themselves; but in the second case it is the sun and the moon and the stars bowing before the person. There is no likeness in the second dream; he stands out uniquely. He is not the sun, he is not the moon, he is not the stars. It is his person, shewing his exclusive and unique greatness.

Ques. Is it heaven and earth in that way that have to bow to Christ? It says, in Philippians 2:9: "Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and granted him a name ... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal beings, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God the Father's glory" Philippians 2:9 - 11.

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I thought the first dream, the sheaves, represented what was on the earth; and the sun and moon and stars, what is in the heaven; both must bow the knee to Christ.

J.T. Very good.

J.T.Jr. There is a rising up in the first part. Does that allude to the Lord here as amongst men, and that His sheaf stood up; that is, He stood up amongst men as outstanding? His distinctive glory shone amongst men.

J.T. Quite so, "Never man spake like this man", John 7:46.

Ques. Is that seen in chapter 41 where it says, "Shall we find one as this, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?" Genesis 41:38. That would confirm what has just been said, would it not?

J.T. Just so, one "in whom the Spirit of God is". If we look into the book of Ezekiel we shall see that God will put His Spirit into His people.

F.N.W. Does not the excellency of manhood as seen in Jesus shine out, on the one hand calling forth the increasing love of the Father for Him and on the other hand the increasing hatred of men?

J.T. Just so, "On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again", John 10:17.

A.R. Does not Genesis 44 bear on what has been said, that Joseph's sheaf remained standing? Does that not bear on the exaltation of Christ as typified in the exaltation of Joseph? In that chapter he is next to Pharaoh and in verse 14 his brethren are said to fall down before him on the ground. In chapter 45 he is disclosing himself to his brethren. His sheaf remains standing, as it were.

J.T. Quite so, his distinction stands out. "And Joseph could not control himself before all them that stood by him, and he cried, Put every man out from me! And no man stood with him when Joseph made himself known to his brethren. And he raised his voice in weeping; and the Egyptians heard ... And Joseph said to his brethren, I am Joseph"

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Wonderful statement! And wonderful when you think of the New Testament and who Christ is. Peter said when the Lord challenged them as to what they said as to Him: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", Matthew 16:16.

A.R. Does not Peter assert it in Acts 2:36: "God has made him, this Jesus whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ"? Acts 2:36

J.T. Just so, "God has made him ... both Lord and Christ", God has done that over against what they did.

A.B.P. It would seem that weeping does not detract from manhood if it is the expression of true feeling; it says that Jesus wept.

J.T. The shortest verse in the Bible is: "Jesus wept", John 11:35.

G.H. Timothy was a man of God, and Paul speaks of his tears.

J.T. Very good, they were rare tears, but not so rare as the Lord's tears. The Lord Himself wept. "Jesus wept", when He saw the others weeping.

S.C.M. Is there not an allusion to the Lord, in type, in Psalm 126, verses 5 and 6? "They that sow in tears shall reap with rejoicing: he goeth forth and weepeth, bearing seed for scattering; he cometh again with rejoicing, bearing his sheaves", Psalm 126:5,6.

J.T. So that the weeping precedes the fruit-bearing; He brings His sheaves with Him; not one sheaf, but "sheaves".

A.N.G. The first scripture we read says that Jacob sent Joseph out of the vale of Hebron. Would that be an allusion to the level at which Joseph would handle his brethren, Hebron suggesting fellowship?

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If things are to be handled at the level of the true fellowship it may involve tears.

J.T. Beautiful! It is one of the remarkable phrases of Scripture, "the vale of Hebron", a peculiar reference to Hebron. If we look into the history of Hebron and what is found in it we shall see the bearing on what has just been said. Here, in verse 2, we read, "And he raised his voice in weeping; and the Egyptians heard, and the house of Pharaoh heard. And Joseph said to his brethren, I am Joseph". I think that all should take that in, the way Joseph asserts himself: "I am Joseph".

J.T.Jr. So the Lord says, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest", Acts 9:5.

V.C.L. In chapter 37 it says, "And Joseph went after his brethren"; but in chapter 45 Joseph said to his brethren, "Come near to me". Are we not on the line of what is progressively intimate?

J.T. Just so. And then the beautiful touch, "Does my father yet live?"

C.A.M. Do you think that he was free to ask that question in connection with what Judah had said in his last words in the preceding chapter? Those words showed that there was in Judah a love for his father that had apparently been forgotten in their actions against Joseph But now Judah says, "Lest I see the evil that would come on my father", Genesis 44:34. Joseph would have confidence in Judah because of his reference to his father.

Ques. Is it not important to see in that way that there was not only an attack on Joseph in these chapters but also on his father? The Lord said, "They have both seen and hated both me and my Father", John 15:24.

J.T. All of chapter 45 breathes the deep feelings of affection. "I am Joseph Does my father yet live? And his brethren could not answer him, for they were troubled at his presence. And Joseph said to his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother";

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beautiful affection breathed out here; "I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. And now, be not grieved, and be not angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been these two years in the land; and yet there are five years in which there will be neither ploughing nor harvest". All that is most beautiful when we apply it to Christ and the presence of the Spirit here active now. And so he continues, "So God sent me before you to preserve you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance". This is all beautiful when we apply it to the reality of the thing, that is to Christ. Deliverance is effected.

Rem. In chapter 41 Joseph attributes much to God when he interprets Pharaoh's dream; he said, "God will give Pharaoh an answer" Genesis 41:16; and in this chapter he attributes much to God in saying that He "sent me before you to preserve life".

J.T. That is, he brought God into prominence; that is what God has done, a great matter in view of the gospel, "The gospel of God ... concerning his Son", Romans 1:3.

R.W.S. You mentioned the Spirit, too. I wanted to ask how that works out as to the Lord and the Spirit in this matter of preserving life. What is the application of verse 7, "God sent me before you to preserve you a remnant in the earth, and to save you alive by a great deliverance"?

J.T. Well, I think the Spirit has to be brought into all these things. You can take account of redemption: of course the Spirit did not die, it is Christ that died; it says that redemption was accomplished by Him. But then while He took the outward part, the suffering part, the Spirit and the Father have part in it too, and we must bring Them into it. They are brought into it as we enlarge on the subject.

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R.W.S. "Who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God", Hebrews 9:14.

J.T. That is it, "through the eternal Spirit".

J.T.Jr. "The Spirit is life" Romans 8:10; it is a question of life now. Joseph is not thinking of death, he is thinking of life.

J.T. And then it is in view of righteousness.

C.F.E. Do you regard Joseph and his brethren here as in an inside position? In the early part of the chapter he put every man out, the matter was to be between him and his brethren only.

J.T. Quite so; there are often too many entering into matters which need spirituality, too many sometimes entering into things. Certain things call for spirituality, and you cannot bring everyone into things that need spirituality.

S.W. And so on the Lord's day morning when the Lord comes in and reveals Himself to the saints, those sitting around on the outside do not know anything about what is going on inside.

J.T. Very good; but they should not stay there, they should come in, like those that wait for His appearing, who love His appearing. "We look for Thine appearing, Thy presence here to bless; We greet the day that's nearing, When all this woe shall cease" (Hymn 200). That is a beautiful composition.

A.N.G. When Paul recounted the matter of the Lord's coming he said, even in that early day, "We, the living, who remain".

J.T. Just so. That passage in 1 Thessalonians 4 would confirm what we are saying: "We, the living, who remain"; we are not looking to die but to be changed, to go to be with the Lord. "Thus we shall be always with the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

V.C.L. The apostle says, "I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say", 1 Corinthians 10:15. Is there not to be

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a combination of intelligence and of spiritual instincts in the truth?

J.T. Just so, I would say intelligence first. We have to go by the Book.

S. W. But do we not see spiritual instincts before intelligence?

J.T. But I say again, Go by the Book. The Old Testament is the one for the types, the New for the actual application of the truth. When Joseph was born, Jacob's instincts gave him the right desires, but that was based on experience, intelligent experience. Jacob said later that he was going to die; but I have no hesitation in saying I am not waiting to die, I am waiting for the coming of the Lord. We await His appearing.

F.H.L. Would you mention what is the outstanding feature of manhood in chapter 45 to link on with the verses read in chapter 48?

J.T. It is continuing this great thought of love in activity. It says in chapter 45 that "Joseph could not control himself". He cried -- he did not whisper -- "Put every man out from me!". This disclosure must be in the particular seclusion of the persons present. Then in verse 27 it says that the spirit of Jacob revived. Apparently he had been prepared to die, but it says, "And the spirit of Jacob ... revived", and he spoke to them saying: "Joseph my son is yet alive; I will go and see him before I die". Look at his determination! "Joseph my son is yet alive; I will go and see him before I die", Genesis 45:27,28. That is determination.

E.A.L. Simeon in Luke 2 had a special communication; it was communicated to him by the Holy Spirit that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ.

J.T. Yes; he said, "Lord, now thou lettest thy bondman go, according to thy word, in peace", Luke 2:29. He would die, but it would be according to the word of God.

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A.B.P. It is remarkable that in 1 Thessalonians 4 the word "we" is emphatic, "We, the living, who remain", 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Paul included himself amongst them.

Ques. Is this the line of elevation? Joseph elevates his brethren from what they had been and their failures, and Jacob elevates Ephraim. Is that what will take place at the coming of the Lord, that we shall be elevated?

J.T. We shall all go together, but the dead will rise first; that is one thing to notice, that the dead in Christ shall rise first. "Then we, the living who remain ..." That is, we all go up together; "And thus we shall be always with the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

D.P. Joseph had great ability in administering food to the people in Egypt, but he did not seem to have the intelligence to understand that God takes away the first that He might establish the second as set out in Jacob's blessing of his sons.

J.T. Jacob knew better than Joseph: he excelled in intelligence. "I know, my son, I know", Genesis 48:19.

A.N.G. Do you think that much of God's dealings with us is to bring us to that mind? Jacob's first contact with Bethel indicated that he found it a terrible place, but in his subsequent life he learned the kind of man that was suitable for the place and now in this connection he is prepared to bring that kind of man forward.

J.T. Very good; he had said, "This is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven", Genesis 28:17.

R.W.S. He goes out, according to Hebrews 11, as a worshipper. Is that the thought of the service of God going on to the end?

J.T. Quite so, that is the present time; I regard that as the present time, the time of worship. The Lord's supper is in that sense just a means to an end.

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MAN (10)

1 Samuel 16:1 - 13; 1 Samuel 17:1 - 54

J.T. We have read extensively but it is necessary in order to get the full bearing of the truth in this section. As will be noted we are dealing here with David and Samuel, having already dealt with the book of Genesis ending with Joseph and Jacob. We shall all recognize that David and Samuel are to be taken as typical of humanity, that is of man according to God. That is what we are dealing with, not with man in the ordinary sense, the unconverted man, but man according to God. It would seem that David and Samuel represent that man as may be seen from a cursory look. So the question now is how we should take up this subject in these two chapters. The word of Jehovah in chapter 16 is, "And Jehovah said to Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel?". And then the account goes on until we come to David. So it says, "Fill thy horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite; for I have provided me a king among his sons. And Samuel said, How shall I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And Jehovah said, Take a heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to Jehovah. And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will tell thee what thou shalt do; and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee. And Samuel did what Jehovah said, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the city came trembling to meet him, and said, Dost thou come peaceably? And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice to Jehovah. Hallow yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice. And he hallowed Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice". This is the position that is before us.

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S. W. Even a man like Samuel has to learn that God has set aside the first order of man.

J.T. Quite so. He said, "Surely Jehovah's anointed is before him", but he was not; even Samuel chose the wrong man.

S. W. In the first verse of our chapter he had to be spoken to about his mourning for Saul.

J.T. Even after that it says, "He looked on Eliab and said, Surely Jehovah's anointed is before him". He made a mistake, for that was not the anointed; he had to wait for David, he had to go down the line to the eighth person until he came to David. It shows, as you say, that we are likely to miss the right man, we have to be sure that we have the right man for our choice.

J.H.E. Were the elders in a poor state when they came to meet Samuel trembling? Why should they come trembling?

J.T. It was not an insubject state. God had told Samuel what to say; so that they were not really in a bad state in the full sense of the word; they were just anxious about things in a general way, which is often the case and very likely rightly so.

A.R. Is there not something very important in the fact that God said to Samuel, "I have provided me a king among his sons"; God was making His own selection now and David is over against what Saul had been?

J.T. Quite so, but Samuel had to learn that Eliab was not God's selection; he was one of Jesse's sons, but he was not the chosen one. We want to be sure that we have the right choice.

Ques. Does Samuel's being impressed with Eliab suggest that we are apt to be impressed with the wrong qualities even in a brother? There were things about Eliab that greatly impressed Samuel but they were not spiritual qualities.

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J.T. Just so; he was a brother of course but that is not everything. There are brothers and brothers. We are all brethren here this evening, but we cannot say that we are all on the same level spiritually, but then the question is, Why should we not be?

Rem. There are brethren that James refers to that are greatly impressed with the brother who has means, who has a gold ring. They should not undervalue him on that account but on the other hand they are somewhat like Samuel, are they not, in being impressed with the wrong qualities?

A.J.E.W. Does this thought of "among his sons" connect with the genealogy in Luke's gospel where we have the Lord referred to as the "supposed son of Joseph"? Luke 3:23. He is linked on with the race in a certain sense; yet He is distinct from it.

J.T. Yes, quite so, David is among the sons, as you say, and we have in Matthew something similar; Joseph is a righteous man whatever thoughts there might be as to him, but he was a righteous man according to Matthew.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that David's heart is a sort of key-note in this chapter? Jehovah says, "Man looketh upon the outward appearance, but Jehovah looketh upon the heart". Later, when David came down to his brethren Eliab said, "I know thy pride and the naughtiness of thy heart", 1 Samuel 17:28. Eliab misjudged him entirely.

J.T. Yes, although he was his brother; but the brother is not always to be relied upon in that sense. As we said before, to be a brother is not everything, he must have certain qualities, for God looks for quality.

A.N. W. Is there something in the fact that David is the eighth and not the seventh? He is not the end of a line but the beginning of another one.

J.T. Just so; the number eight begins another set of numbers you mean. Sometimes it might appear

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that he is the seventh, but there is a question about that. Clearly however he is the eighth according to this chapter.

F.J.F. Were the disciples in Jerusalem like the elders here? When Paul came from Damascus they seemed to misunderstand his coming. It says that they were afraid when he first came to Jerusalem.

J.T. There is a resemblance in the two cases, the two circumstances. So that a title is not always a guide, we need more than the word 'elders' as here, for instance. There are elders and elders; "From among your own selves", Paul says, "shall rise up men ... to draw away the disciples after them", Acts 20:30 and he was speaking to elders. You have a good number in Africa. Johannesburg, for example, is quite a big city, but there, as in New York, there are elders and elders. The same matter obtains everywhere and we have to accept facts.

F.H.F. Is a man according to God marked by obedience? Would that be a prominent feature with him?

J.T. I think that is what marked David outstandingly; he was a man of obedience. He was characteristically a man of obedience, and so was Samuel, a remarkable man. These two men give character to the two books of Samuel.

J.T.Jr. Would verse 14 of chapter 13 help in regard to what we are speaking of? It says, "Jehovah has sought him a man after his own heart", 1 Samuel 13:14. Does it suggest that before this matter came up Jehovah had been looking?

J.T. Just so; tell us more about "a man after his own heart".

J.T.Jr. Well, we have had the subject of man before us, and have considered many expressions of manhood on the earth; but the idea of a man after God's heart is the real thought, is it not?

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J.T. If we consider man as a subject we may ask, Who is this man? The man is Christ; properly speaking it is "the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. That is the idea. But then that has to be worked out for us in other men and David sets out this thought in a remarkable way.

F.H.L. Is that not why David is such a remarkable type, because his name is the very clue to the dispensation; the Lord says, "I am the root and offspring of David", Revelation 22:16.

J.T. Just so, and the second part of that verse is, "The bright and morning star". That is the idea. It says, "He made the stars also"; Genesis 1:16 but then Christ is the Morning Star.

J.H.E. We know that God is love, and the very name of David means 'the beloved', does it not?

J.T. He is a type of Christ, God's Beloved.

A.N.W. The words that have been referred to in chapter 13 were said to Saul, "Jehovah has sought him a man after his own heart", 1 Samuel 13:14. That was in connection with David, and it seems to be the word that marks him. There is settlement for God in David, is there not? I thought it was really a rebuke to Saul that it had to be said to him, "Jehovah has sought ...". He did not find the man in Saul, but He found him in David.

J.T. And so Jehovah says to Samuel, "How long wilt thou mourn for Saul ... ?". He should not have been mourning for Saul; that was not the right man; God had rejected him. It was not a question of Saul's burial but that He had rejected Saul as well as the Philistines; it was rejection. We shall have to distinguish, before we proceed, between such men as David and Samuel, and such a man as the Philistine, who is a man too, but entirely out of the mind of God, this terrible idea of a Philistine. A Philistine is not a man according to God at all, so that just to

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be a man is not everything; it is a question of the quality that you can get in man; and Christ is the leading thought in that so that we have to be able to work out from Him what man is.

Rem. There are three spoken of that are not according to God, Saul and Eliab and the Philistine.

J.T. Quite so. They are all men in a certain sense. Later we read of a Philistine who had six fingers and six toes. If you go by their fingers and toes you will see that they are not according to God. If the man has not the number five then he is not the man according to God. The number five is the normal number that attaches to the normal man.

A.R. Is that why David selected five stones?

J.T. He chose five smooth stones, exactly; it is a question of the man according to God.

Ques. In Psalm 78 it says, "From following the suckling-ewes, he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance", Psalm 78:71. I wondered if the quality of dependence was learned early in David's life so that he was able to meet this giant? He could meet him as dependent upon God.

J.T. Very good. That is what we are trying to get at. The word 'man' might be misleading as covering either a Philistine or somebody the very opposite to him; so that we have to go by the quality or character that God sets out. We must begin with Christ: "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. That is the great thought that we begin with.

T.E.H. I was greatly impressed with the last verse of Psalm 78 which has just been referred to: "And he fed them according to the integrity of his heart, and led them by the skilfulness of his hands", Psalm 78:72. David was a real man.

J.T. Just so.

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F.J.F. The skilfulness of his hands was proved in chapter 17. How skilful he was in bringing down the giant, and with one stone!

J.T. Quite so; there were five, however, that is the right number to have.

F.J.F. But he hid the five, did he not?

J.T. Yes, but they were there; he knew where to get them; they were the right kind to be used in the conflict. He did not make any mistake as to the kind of thing that he was going to use. He had no sword in his hand it says, but he had stones, and one of them did the work.

Ques. All Goliath's armour described so elaborately in verse 5 of chapter 17 was of no avail, a helmet of bronze and a corselet of scales five thousand shekels of bronze in weight. Would that allude to a certain state, an infidel state you might say, that marks men at the present time?

J.T. Quite so; there are many abroad in the world today of this kind but they are not God's kind. It is a question with them of plenty of some kind of thing, but not of quality. The idea of quality is in Christ, that is God's Man, "the man Christ Jesus".

A.R. Is that seen in chapter 16? It says of David, he was ruddy, and besides of a lovely countenance and beautiful appearance. "And Jehovah said, Arise, anoint him; for this is he".

J.T. Yes, he was the man, the man of God's mind, of God's own heart; David was a man after God's own heart, a wonderful thought. Well, that is the man we are dealing with this evening.

V.C.L. Would not the fact that the Spirit of Jehovah came upon David be a great distinguishing mark of God's man?

J.T. Quite so, the Spirit of Jehovah; that is God Himself, the Spirit of God is God Himself.

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S.C.M. This man is marked by going down, going down into the valley, so that he represents the Lord in going into death.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that what David was outwardly was in full keeping with what he was inwardly? The idea of sincerity would mark him.

J.T. There were seven others that were passed by before David was reached, that is the great thing to notice. How many must be passed by? Christ has not to be passed by by anybody; He is the Man after God's heart, the man Christ Jesus.

D.P. Is it a mark of pre-eminence that David was anointed by Samuel in the midst of his brethren?

J.T. In the midst of his brethren, just so, a beautiful thought! The Lord is in the midst of His brethren on the Lord's day morning, as we say; He is in the midst at the Lord's supper so that it is a question of our joining in and having part in the service in that sense. We belong to the brethren of Christ.

J.T.Jr. It is remarkable that there is this defection in Samuel here. The Lord had told him that He would name the man and yet Samuel proceeds to select Eliab. Does that not bring out a certain defect in him? He had not followed the instructions and yet generally speaking he is a spiritual man.

J.H.H. Was not Samuel very quickly adjusted though? When he got the word from the Lord he was quickly adjusted and could go through to the seventh one and say, "Jehovah has not chosen these".

J.T. Quite so, he was quickly adjusted, as you say. He is a good brother. Still you have to hesitate and say that there is some difficulty with him; he is a good brother, still there is a "but". Very often that happens.

Ques. What is meant when it says in Timothy, "Lay hands quickly on no man"? 1 Timothy 5:22.

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J.T. That means that you are to be discriminative, to be sure you have the right man; you are not to select him too soon, not to be too quick about it. It says, not quickly.

T.E.H. Would that also have reference to any one seeking his way to walk with us? Would that principle apply, to lay hands suddenly on no one?

J.T. Quite so; you have to be discriminative in your selection among the saints because we are dealing with divine things.

V.C.L. You have used the word 'discriminative' several times. Is it right to look and see what is characteristic of a man? Samuel was characteristically known as one of whom God let none of his words fall to the ground. Would you view his defect in the light of what he was characteristically?

J.T. Well, I would; and characteristic is a good word but it is not everything, of course; it is only what it says, characteristic, and that means that it is not the full idea, it is not the whole, the pure idea. The full pure idea is Christ, the Man according to God. That is Christ and we have all to come after Him, after Christ.

F.J.F. We could hardly use that word 'characteristic' of the Lord, could we?

J.T. No, it is not good enough; there is only one word good enough for Christ.

F.J.F. Because everything, you would say, is perfect there.

J.T. Well, quite so, still it is more than that. James has the expression "a perfect man": "he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body", James 3:2 but that is not Christ. "There is ... one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. There is only one Man like that.

Ques. Does David as selected here in any way typify the second Man out of heaven?

J.T. That is Christ too, of course.

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F.N.W. The Lord Jesus could say He was "altogether that which I also say to you", John 8:25.

J.T. Just so and, of course, abstractly we have to get the whole truth. John's epistle would say abstractly that we are all like Christ because in the future we shall be changed and made like Him: "We shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is", 1 John 3:2. That is the way to get at the truth and we have to get at the whole truth in dealing with these matters, so that the word 'abstract' is an excellent word as to them; you can apply it to the quality that was in Christ in that sense.

F.H.L. Are not these beautiful features seen in David, integrity and trustworthiness and so on, reflected in his beautiful countenance? Is there a moral meaning in that?

J.T. I would think so.

G.B. Is there a possibility of these conditions being found amongst the saints today? Here was a very sorrowful state. Saul, on whom the Spirit of God was, the anointed one, was greatly feared even by Samuel, whom God selected. But we see how God goes about it to get the position adjusted. If such a condition is found amongst the saints today, how should we in such a case seek one to lead? Could you help us to get the right setting of it?

J.T. What do you mean by 'such a condition?'

G.B. I mean a sorrowful state. Could you help to put us in the right setting?

J.T. We have already touched on Samuel and noted that he himself was a bit defective in the selection. He was a wonderful man but he was not absolutely right; he was not fully like Christ. But we get the abstract idea in the epistle of John, that is to say what is in the abstract sense like Christ in the saints. He that is born of God does not sin, it says; that is abstract and we have to make allowance for that..

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G.B. There is sometimes a great danger amongst the people of God in that in looking for a leader; there are those who follow one who is really not the man whom God has in mind.

J.T. We have to watch for that; if we are discriminative we will not follow a man that is not according to God for a leader. He is not a leader if he is not according to God. That is what I am trying to get at, the abstract idea; we have to bring that in now at this point, the abstract idea as seen in John's epistle.

Rem. This abstract idea may be seen in Paul's word to the Colossians that he laboured to present every man perfect in Christ.

E.A.L. In the previous chapter, 1 Samuel 15, Samuel says in speaking to Saul, "Jehovah has rent the kingdom of Israel from thee today, and has given it to thy neighbour, who is better than thou", 1 Samuel 15:28. But the weakness with Samuel seems to be that he saw in Eliab a man of great stature, the same kind of man as Saul. He did not seem to have rightly judged what the flesh is, and this led him into defection.

J.T. Quite so, but the real man was David; Eliab did not have quality, he was not up to the mark.

Rem. And Jesse was defective as well as Samuel; he evidently did not think it was worth while having David there.

J.T. He knew where he was, of course, but did not think it necessary to bring him forward. That is a very extraordinary thing, that Jesse did not think it worth while to bring his son David forward, whereas he was God's man. Jesse was, in this matter, entirely out of accord with God's mind.

F.J.F. As a man of God does not David prove God in secret with the lion and the bear before he comes out publicly?

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J.T. What a man is with God does not always come out at once, you mean, quite so.

A.J.E. W. Is it not noteworthy that in chapter 17 David holds the scene by himself without Samuel, as if the choice made through Samuel is fully justified by what ensues? I was just thinking of the precious features that come to light in David himself in chapter 17, not needing, so to speak, to be augmented by any other. He stands on his own excellence, does he not?

J.T. He is the man, and all these qualities come in at once in him; that is, the number five characterizes David, a lowly, Christ-like man.

J.T.Jr. The young man in chapter 16, verse 18, had seen these qualities in David. Somebody knew them.

J.T. Just so; David the son of Jesse is called, and he was suitable for what was needed. Saul needed a man to play for him, a very humbling thing, and David was in that position at first and was ready to fill it, to do what was right and needful. But now we are looking at what he was in chapter 17.

Ques. In this chapter we read of David's having met three enemies, the lion and the bear and the Philistine. We may understand the aspect of the lion and the bear but what is the aspect of the enemy in this battle with Goliath? What is the meaning of meeting this enemy?

J.T. He is the order of man of whom we read later that he had six fingers and six toes; he is a bad man, he is Satan's man. That is not the man for God at all.

Ques. Does he represent the opposition in one of its most dangerous forms?

J.T. Quite so; such are Satan's men, that is what I would say.

A.N.W. The word 'hero' is applied to him. That is a word much in use in the world today.

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J.T. That is found in Genesis 6, men of renown; like the six-toed and six-fingered man they are not of God at all; they are not the sons of God, but the unholy product of those called the sons of God in Genesis 6.

S.C.M. The Lord refers to a strong man armed, that his goods are in safety; but when a stronger than he comes he first binds the strong man.

J.T. Quite so, he binds the strong man and takes away his goods; it is a stronger than he that does it. Christ is the stronger.

E.A.L. The men of Israel in speaking of Goliath said that he had come up to defy the armies of Israel; but David said that he came up to defy the armies of the living God. His viewpoint was different.

J.T. He is on God's side. But the abstract that we have spoken of in the epistle of John has to be considered in that sense because it is perfect in itself; it is after Christ. "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not" 1 John 5:18; it is a question of being born of God.

J.T.Jr. We do not keep to that side enough, do we? That is the side of being born of water and of the Spirit. If we kept more to that side in our soul's history we would be more the demonstration of what we are speaking about.

J.T. It is a question of birth, what God effects by birth, not by creation but by birth. Creation, of course, has its place too: God created man in His image. But birth is another matter and that is John 3, new birth, being born anew, and being born of water and of the Spirit.

V.C.L. What is said as to us abstractly is to be seen concretely in Christ, is it not? I was thinking of the thief when he says, "This man hath done nothing amiss", Luke 23:41

J.T. There could be no new creation, no eternal condition of blessing at all without this that we are

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talking about now; we must have all this with a view to what God has in His mind; that is, new creation. We must have this in the sense of birth, not simply creation. There are many other things in the epistles that we have to consider on these lines which we are not able to do now for want of time. But we shall have to look into this matter again as to David and Samuel because it is so great in the sense of man, of manhood. We have to make allowance for the abstract idea, that is to say what God is doing on the principle of birth; and, of course, creation too, as I have said, but it is new creation.

F.H.L. "If anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:17.

J.T. "There is a new creation the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new: and all things are of the God who has reconciled us to himself", 2 Corinthians 5:17,18. There is no question about it, there is no discrepancy at all. These are wonderful facts.

F.J.F. Would you say that what is produced by the new birth would have these characteristics; they would come to light in due time?.

Ques. And would you say that what is descriptive of Christ is to be seen concretely, too, in the saints?

J.T. Surely. And so reverting again to new birth in John 3, we must have that in order to get what is in the mind of God for eternity. There is no imperfection whatsoever in the thoughts of God and in that sense we must have the new birth.

S.C.M. Would you bring in 1 John 5, "We know that everyone begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him"? 1 John 5:18.

J.T. That is all the abstract idea, quite so.

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A.R. It says in 1 Corinthians 15 that "flesh and blood cannot inherit God's kingdom", 1 Corinthians 15:50. How far would that go as applying it to John 3?

J.T. That would include John 3. Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom of God; we must have something different, something entirely of. God. "All things are of God", it says 2 Corinthians 5:18; that is as to the eternal thoughts of God.

T.E.H. How do we understand John 1:13 when it speaks of the children of God as those "who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh's will, nor of man's will, but of God"? John 1:13: Is that a further thought than new birth?

J.T. Quite so; it is just the abstract thought that we are dealing with. It is the abstract in John's epistle, and we must keep in touch with that and hold it or we shall get out of the line of the truth.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that the circumstances of this chapter were ordered of God in order to bring out David in bold relief as compared with every other man? And have we the same idea in Revelation 5 where heaven and earth are waiting because there is no one found worthy to open the book? There it is the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

J.T. Here it is Christ really in principle; it is Christ beforehand. And I would say to the brethren now, at this time, that we are bound to come to the abstract idea or we shall get out of the line of the truth. We are bound to come to the abstract idea and bound to learn what it is to follow it out.

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MAN (11)

Exodus 2:1 - 25; Hebrews 11:23 - 28

J.T. The thought is before us of increasing the time on our subject of Man to extend to another year. We began with Genesis 1 and went through to the end of the book, finishing with Jacob. Then we went on to David and Samuel. But with the extension of our time we can go more thoroughly into the subject and for this reason it has been thought well to return to Exodus. The passages before us now enlarge on Moses, who peculiarly represents the subject before us. He has a great place in the Scriptures, especially as the writer of the first five books of the Bible; so it is hoped that we shall follow up the passages read carefully and profitably.

S. W. Have you in mind that Moses was the great mediator, thinking of the Man Christ Jesus: "One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"? 1 Timothy 2:5.

J.T. One had thought of that. We have Moses here as a babe and then as a full grown man and then as suffering affliction with the people of God.

C.A.M. Would the three stages you mention be the way that manhood develops in us?

J.T. Quite; and all that the first chapter deals with leads up especially to chapter 2 which we read. It begins with "A man of the house of Levi". That is to say, the full idea of the nation or family is set out in a tribal sense; the tribes of Israel. And Moses fully represents that idea, which becomes a great feature of the subject before us and runs on to the last book of the Bible, mention being made of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel in Revelation 21.

F.H.L. The fact that the parents are not mentioned by name but simply that they were of the tribe of Levi, would show that the emphasis is thrown on the

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child Moses, would it not? The names of the parents are not mentioned until chapter 6.

J.T. Yes; so that we begin with his babehood, what he derived from his parents; and then in course of time he grows into manhood and takes on his brother Aaron who is associated with him in the prophetic word. Aaron was three years older than Moses so that Moses does not exactly represent family office because Aaron was older than he. At the same time Moses took precedence of Aaron in the prophetic ministry.

A.N.W. At least six times, I think, he is called "the man of God". Does not that enforce the matter of manhood very strongly in Moses?

J.T. I think it would and also his relation to the prophetic ministry. The brothers were both linked up with it, but though Aaron was the older, Moses took precedence of Aaron.

J.T.Jr. So that Aaron's birth is not noticed in the same way as that of Moses.

J.T. He comes in very informally, whereas the birth of Moses is very formal We ought to look at every brother in that way, especially those engaged in any way in the service of God, that they are to be regarded formally as calling attention to their importance, the importance which God gives them. It is very important that everyone should understand this.

W.W.M. When Stephen refers to Moses he says that he was exceedingly lovely. His parents understood something of that, did they not?

J.T. Quite so; and, as has already been remarked, he later had a most distinguished place in the service of God. I do not know of any other excepting the Lord Himself or Paul that had such a distinguished place as Moses.

Rem. That would be confirmed in Deuteronomy 18, where it says, "Jehovah said unto me ... A prophet will I raise up unto them from among their

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brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" Deuteronomy 18:17,18.

J.T. That helps to show the importance of Moses.

R.W.S. You mean that with those whom the Lord is going to use to serve His people He has in mind their background, He goes up-stream as you have often said, to secure the right product for the testimony. Does that usually apply, that the Lord looks a long way ahead to secure the right parentage and other things of import?

J.T. I am certain that is true; that is why I just stressed the idea of such persons being taken account of formally.

T.N.W. At the point when Aaron spoke against Moses the word is, "But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth", Numbers 12:3.

J.T. Quite so, there is a word in that for every one of us here, brothers and sisters alike. It might be remarked that the Lord is encouraging us with the thought of sisters attending such meetings as these; the time was when they were excluded, especially in Europe, but God has overruled that and I believe the thought is prospering.

E.A.L. The meekness of Moses would not prevent him from standing in the presence of Pharaoh; he was very bold in his presence.

J.T. Quite so, God was with him.

W.W.M. Do you think that the discernment of the parents of Moses in seeing the loveliness of the child should be the attitude of all parents in relation to their children? They should have in mind whether or not they are to be fair to God.

J.T. Quite so. We may be taken up with making them fair to men, but the point you make is that they are to be fair to God.

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W.W.M. And that should be the attitude of mind and desire of parents for their children.

J.T. Yes, quite so; but it is very rare that persons put God before men for their children.

A.N.W. I am impressed that you refer to the matter as formal in connection with the sisters, because it struck me much that Phoebe is said to be "minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea", Romans 16:1.

A.B.P. Do the women in the previous chapter have a part in this? The midwives apparently were instrumental in preserving the features of manhood.

J.T. I would say that, and it links on with this chapter which is one of the most important of the whole book because of the care expended on the babe Moses.

J.T.Jr. So that the feminine side is stressed in this chapter: as well as the mother there are the sister and Pharaoh's daughter. That would strengthen what you said about the sisters being at these meetings.

J.T. Just so; it has been spoken of many times now and was first brought up at Bristol last year, and I believe God is prospering it.

A.R. It is remarkable that it says of Pharaoh's daughter that she had compassion on Moses; she became his saviour.

J.T. She really risked her own reputation I would think in extending her care to a young child of the Hebrews, because it was contrary to the law; but she risked that, you might say that she risked her life.

D.Macd. She is the one who names Moses; the parents did not name him.

J.T. Quite right, it was Pharaoh's daughter that called his name Moses.

A.N.W. The name evidently has the meaning 'drawn out', which was, I suppose, the way he was brought into safety.

F.N.W. Does this chapter link on with Luke 18, the place that babes have in God's thoughts of man?

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It says in that interesting reference, "And they brought to him also infants that he might touch them", Luke 18:15 as if the Lord was very concerned as to what would be for God even in these babes.

J.T. Showing how important it is to look after the children, whoever may do it, even if it is not the parents. God takes account of the children because they are His; He has prior rights to them. It is not such a long time since brethren were hardly free to baptize children, the idea of baptism was falsely apprehended.

T.V.D. The circumstances surrounding the birth of Moses were extraordinary, which was true also of the birth of the Lord Jesus.

A.R. This matter of household baptism comes into Paul's ministry, does it not?

J.T. It is worth while mentioning that. The idea is that the household is to be baptized, the household, not simply the believer, but the household. Baptism refers to the household; it says of the jailer that "he ... was baptized, he and all his straightway", Acts 16:33

A.R. So Paul said to him, "Thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house".

S.C.M. The word child seems to have a prominent place in this chapter as though there would be a small beginning, but he would become prominent later.

J.T. It would show what we sometimes say, that the child is father of the man. We have to begin with the child, the character begins there.

S.C.M. So that the nursing period is a very important part of the child's life. Mephibosheth was dropped by his nurse and he became lame. How important that care should be taken in bringing up children!

A.B.P. Does Moses' responsibility seem to begin when he was grown? Up to verse 18 everything is done for him but in verse 11 it says, "It came to pass ... when Moses was grown, that he went out to his brethren".

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J.T. Yes, and he looked on their burdens; he was not selfish.

A.B.P. You mean that he had care for his brethren as well as observation?

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. Do you mean that if Moses was to be furnished to write the beginning of the Bible it would be according to God that he should be prepared for this service from the very commencement of his history? His very beginnings would be such, under the orderings of God, that if he was going to write, for instance, as to Levi and his origin, or as to Noah and the waters of baptism, he would have really come to know these things in his own soul's experiences.

J.T. It is remarkable too that Pharaoh's daughter comes into it so importantly, as if God were in that peculiarly. It says, "And the daughter of Pharaoh went down to bathe in the river; and her maids went along by the river's side. And she saw the ark in the midst of the sedge, and sent her handmaid and fetched it. And she opened it, and saw the child, and behold, the boy wept". Now I think that is very touching, everybody should feel that; the allusion is undoubtedly to sufferings, and I would say the sufferings of Christ. There was suffering involved in it, for the babe wept, a remarkable thing spiritually; Pharaoh's daughter saw that he wept.

C.A.M. Linking that on with what you said about her risking her life, she really forgot herself in her feelings for him.

J.T.Jr. It was something in the government that could be affected, if Pharaoh's daughter could be regarded as part of the government. We can, I suppose, expect that some element in the government may be affected by such a thing as the suffering of the saints.

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F.S.C. It says in regard to Noah and the ark that eight souls were saved by water; and so Moses here is saved by water.

J.T. Quite so, and there is an allusion in it to baptism, for baptism saves us; that is what came to the minds of the brethren some years back, that baptism saves us. We have to understand that.

Ques. Would smiting the Egyptian correspond to baptism? Moses evidently had a moral judgment of the world, and then he was prepared to leave it.

J.T. Just so; he killed the man; we do not understand from that that he was a murderer, he had good reason for it.

L. W. Stephen, in Acts 7, refers to this portion of the life of Moses. He says, "In which time Moses was born, and was exceedingly lovely, who was nourished three months in the house of his father. And when he was cast out, the daughter of Pharaoh took him up, and brought him up for herself to be for a son. And Moses was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was mighty in his words and deeds. And when a period of forty years was fulfilled to him, it came into his heart to look upon his brethren, the sons of Israel", Acts 7:23.

J.T. That shows that he had qualities which could be used in the service of God. The question is whether we are all here on that line today, as having the compassions of God for each other.

G.H. I would like to hear a little more about the government being affected by suffering.

J.T.Jr. Well, I was connecting Pharaoh's daughter with the government; in that way she might suggest an element in the government that would be affected by suffering; if there is suffering amongst us and it comes before the government, they may be affected by it. I was thinking of the union matter here, that some of our brethren have been suffering; and if the knowledge of the suffering comes to certain ones in.

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the government they may be affected by it. Indeed the matter was stated to us in that way by competent authority, that it is that kind of thing that would affect the judges.

J.T. The question is whether she had a place in the government. She took liberties at any rate; she took the liberty of the daughter of Pharaoh; that is what belongs to royal families, that their children have liberties that others have not.

C.A.M. In that connection Pharaoh's daughter in Solomon's day was an important factor in the place of influence, was she not? That would support what has just been said, that she must have been a very influential person.

D.P. We need faith and wisdom to move in relation to laws hostile to the saints that are enacted by the governments, do we not?

J.T. We are here this afternoon that we should get wisdom; as it says in James, "If anyone of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all freely and reproaches not", James 1:5. That is a word for us now.

Ques. And is it not a comfort that Moses, of whom you spoke as a type of the Lord, was ready to take on the brethren's burdens? He went out and looked on their burdens, he was prepared to suffer affliction with the people of God. The Lord is suffering with us, is He not?

J.T. So that Moses becomes a type of the Lord Jesus, as you mentioned, and it is for everyone, brothers and sisters alike, to take on this matter of helping each other, of regarding our brethren.

R.W.S. And doing it every day, would you say? I notice here that as he goes out to look upon their burdens he sees what is needed and does it, then. He goes out again on the second day and sees something else that is needed to be done. He is available every day to serve, is he not?

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J.T. But he looked this way and that way before he did it, showing that he was careful, that we are not to be careless in what we are doing.

R.W.S. You mean that you commend that?

J.T. Certainly; God does not reprove him, God does not rebuke him.

R.W.S. And he hid the man in the sand; he completes the matter you would say?

J.T. Well, quite so, it would look as if he had the right to do it.

A.R. He is like God Himself in His care for the people, as it says in verse 25, "God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them".

J.T.Jr. God was going to kill all the Egyptians, was he not? Moses was beginning what was going to be finished later on.

C.A.M. Hiding an Egyptian in the sand is not the same as hiding Moses in the water. It says, "When she could no longer hide him, she took for him an ark of reeds". That was a precious hiding.

S.W. Would you say that it is one matter to have a judgment in relation to the Egyptian, but it is another matter to have him put out of sight?

J.T. Well, yes; but as has already been remarked, God was going to destroy them all. It was a tremendous thing that happened in Egypt.

F.N.W. Stephen says of Moses at this point, "For he thought that his brethren would understand that God by his hand was giving them deliverance", Acts 7:25.

J.H.E. Would Moses' mother in nursing him in his early life be like the assembly nourishing the saints and the children of the saints so that they will grow up here in relation to the testimony?

J.T. Quite so, caring for them not simply because they are our own children, but because of what they are to be for God; we take them up on that ground.

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J.H.E. And in that sense there is salvation in the assembly, is there not?

J.T. That is another thing that has come out in the last fifty years, the idea of salvation being in the assembly. I do not know that it is fully understood yet, but as it came out it became a great help to the brethren.

J.T.Jr. The young people like to be amongst the brethren, I think.

J.T. I think so too; they do not want to keep away from the brethren so far as I can see. It is a good sign when you look around and see young people keeping company with the elder brethren.

A.R. At the end of Acts 2 it says that the Lord added daily to the assembly those that were to be saved.

J.T. Yes, such as were to be saved, that is, it is the mind of God that they are to be saved. So that the assembly is properly the home for them.

S.C.M. Pharaoh's daughter says, "This is one of the Hebrews' children", as though he stands out in this way.

J.T. And then it says, "And his sister said to Pharaoh's daughter" -- notice, his sister, who was probably Miriam -- "Shall I go and call thee a wet-nurse of the Hebrew women, that she may nurse the child for thee? And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Go. And the damsel went and called the child's mother. And Pharaoh's daughter said to her, Take this child away and nurse it for me, and I will give thee thy wages". She is not treated as a person of very much worth, yet she is of great importance; she is nursing Moses.

S.C.M. What are the wages?

J.T. It would show that God is no one's debtor; wages enter into the whole matter. Whatever we do for the brethren we get wages for it, God will not forget to give us recompense.

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A.A.T. The wages apply to the parents, do they not? The mother was to be paid.

J.T. Well, she took the ground of being a nurse. Pharaoh's daughter regarded her in that light.

A.A.T. To make a practical application of it, in baptism the children are handed back to the mother. Do not the parents get wages as they bring them up?

J.T. Well, it is a question of what they do for God, that is the point. If we baptize our children for God, then we get recompense for it. That is the way I would look at it. God is not hesitant as to wages, He has plenty of things with which to pay; He says, The cattle on a thousand hills are mine. He has plenty of means. We can really do things for God in that light.

S. W. Do you not think that Hannah was well recompensed if she lived to see Samuel crown David?

J.T. She brought him a new coat every year, which is a remarkable thing. How careful she was about her child! She brought him a little coat every year. We have to regard the brethren and how they are growing; we have to watch them and look after the coats suitable for them.

A.E.W. Will you say more as to the assembly's part in regard to young people, and the idea of manhood coming in? Most of us grow up in assembly conditions, in households that respect the truth of the assembly.

J.T. We formerly had Sunday schools but they were given up and have never been revived, and now there are more children coming into fellowship than ever before. The assembly is the place for nursing them, they are children that are nursed by the assembly.

A.B.P. Paul refers to himself as a nurse as well as a father in writing to the Thessalonians, who would be his children in the faith.

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J.T. Quite so, I am glad you brought that up because the idea of nursing is so important in forming young people.

A.N.W. In Acts 20 Paul calls the elders to him, but in Acts 21 the children also with their parents cluster about him.

J.T. I suppose Timotheus was one of his most important children: "my true child in faith" 1 Timothy 1:2 he calls him.

J.T.Jr. Therefore Timothy is the one to whom Paul speaks about conduct in the house of God, which I suppose he learned from Paul -- how to conduct himself in the house of God.

A.R. Is that why Paul asked Timothy to remain at Ephesus?

J.T. Very good; that he might enjoin and teach.

R.W.S. What about Moses' fleeing when Pharaoh hears of the slaying? It says, "And Pharaoh heard of this matter, and sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from before Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian. And he sat by the well".

J.T. One of the most important things to notice is that "he sat by the well"; he sat by it, showing his attitude, the value of the attitude relating to a well. Spiritually the idea of a well is an immense thing, a place where the saints can be refreshed. That is what you get in a meeting like this really, a place where the saints are nourished and refreshed.

S.C.M. He is not idle by the well, he finds employment and draws water abundantly.

J.T. That is what the priest's daughters say of him, they give a good account. And further, it says he sat by the well; it is not a well; it is as if this were the only one. That is the idea spiritually. "And the priest of Midian had seven daughters; and they came and drew water, and filled the troughs, to water their father's flock. And the shepherds came and drove them away; but Moses rose and helped them, and watered their flock",

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notice that. "And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, Why are ye come so soon today? And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock". He "drew water abundantly"; that is where he is learning, where he is maturing for his great service. But then Reuel says, "Where is he? why then have ye left the man behind?". The sisters were remiss in this matter and their father had to rebuke and reprove them about it. Moses you might say is maturing for his great service to the people of God; he is showing what kind of man he is, he drew water abundantly and defended the sisters.

A.B.P. Reuel having heard this realised that there was a man somewhere. It is a question now of finding the man, is it not?

J.T. Just so, and it is the man.

J.H.E. Would the fulness of this be seen in John 4, "Come, see a man"? John 4:29. Such a Man could give living water. These flocks were probably never so refreshed before as when Moses watered them that day.

J.T. The Lord is in mind, I am sure; Moses is a type of the Lord.

Rem. The daughters call Moses an Egyptian, but Reuel calls him a man.

J.T. There is great profit in the types in the Old Testament; that is where we get nourished -- from the well. It is the well, as we were saying. The well of water springs up into everlasting life in John 4; that is the real thing; so that there are the two sides set out in the Bible: getting the types in the Old Testament and the real thing in the New.

S.W. Would you say that Moses had gained a constitution in refusing what was of Egypt and of Pharaoh's household, and this constitution is coming out now in that he is able to water the flock abundantly?

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J.T. Abundantly; let us dwell upon the word 'abundantly'.

S.C.M. The same word is used in John 10. These shepherds drive away, but the Lord, the good Shepherd, says, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly", John 10:10.

F.H.N. Does the Spirit of Christ as allowed in us enable us to serve the saints in this way after having suffered for them as Moses did?

J.T. Well, quite so, although I do not suppose many have suffered very much; but there is such a thing as suffering. I am not saying I have known it much, but I know a little bit about it, that suffering goes with serving; it goes with serving the Lord.

A.N.W. It is remarkable that they have to admit that he delivered them. He not only watered the flock, but they have to say, "An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock".

J.T. He did everything well, that is the idea.

J.T.Jr. His ability is beginning to show itself; we need to take account of it in brethren when they begin to show ability spiritually; it shows itself in the assembly.

F.S.C. Does this training in Moses' life bring out the shepherd character?

J.T. Just so, it shows that Moses had evidently become a real shepherd to shepherd the people of God. He wrote the five books of the Pentateuch as well as serving the saints and delivering them out of Egypt. That is a great thing; one of the greatest things to think of is being delivered out of Egypt.

R.W.S. Was there not a little defect in what he did in the earlier part of the chapter in slaying the Egyptian, because the thing became known and he fled; whereas what he is doing now in relation to the well, that is, the Spirit, I suppose we might say, is done well; he delivers them and draws water abundantly.

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Does that not mean that he is serving better than he had served before? He is improving in his service, he is doing better than he did before because even though he had looked this way and that, the matter became known. It says in verse 14, "Then Moses feared, and said, Surely the matter is known". But it seems a perfect service in relation to this subsequent happening.

J.T. So that the sufferings were there and the readiness for sufferings was there. Verse 18 says, "Why are ye come so soon today? And they said, An Egyptian delivered us out of the hand of the shepherds, and also drew water abundantly for us, and watered the flock"; those were good actions. "And he said to his daughters, And where is he? why then have ye left the man behind? Call him, that he may eat bread. And Moses consented to remain with the man; and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter". He is his father-in-law now. "And she bore a son, and he called his name Gershom; for he said, I have been a sojourner in a foreign land". Then the next point of great advantage is that the king of Egypt died. The matter will go forward now that the king of Egypt has died. "And the children of Israel sighed because of the bondage, and cried; and their cry came up to God because of the bondage; and God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob; and God looked upon the children of Israel, and God acknowledged them". So the matter is clear now, and the service of God will begin properly.

F.H.L. Is this all fundamental to the apostle's word in Hebrews 3 that Moses was faithful "in all his house"? Hebrews 3:5.

J.T. I would think that, faithful "in all his house"; that is a great point.

A.R. What have you in your mind in saying the service of God will begin properly here?

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J.T. Well, chapter 3 says, "And Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law", Exodus 3:1 -- notice it is Jethro now, not Reuel -- "the priest of Midian". The service of God is beginning in this sense. "And he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God -- to Horeb". The mountain of God is the beginning of everything now, I mean to say it is the place where the service is to be carried on. And then it says, "And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him", Exodus 3:1,2. Now this is a new phase of the whole matter when "the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him"; we shall get something done now. And, of course, much was done, because ultimately we have the five books of Moses and all that we have been speaking of in our consideration of this subject.

E.E.H. Is chapter 2 the secret history of Moses, and chapter 3 more the formal history?

J.T. Yes, more the formal, actual work he had to do, which is so important; and so wonderful that as we undertake to do things God is with us and appears to us. It is one of the most precious things to have the sense that God is watching what you are doing, and appearing to you in some way so that you know Him.

A.R. Is there some spiritual thought here about the priest of Midian?

J.T. I think so, the priest of Midian has a spiritual importance; we get it later in Moses' history.

J.T.Jr. The divine approval in the previous chapter is seen in the way things are done, that is, he succeeds in every matter. But now it is God formally coming in to speak to him and to take him up.

J.T. I think it is very wonderful how it says, "And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thorn-bush:" Exodus 3:2 -- the thorn-bush is a small idea, but the appearing is an immense idea -- "and he looked, and behold, the thorn-bush burned with fire, and the thorn-bush was not being consumed".

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Three times the thorn-bush is mentioned. "And Moses said, Let me now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt. And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see". Jehovah saw; that is, God takes account of us whenever we are moving in His direction -- "and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God", Exodus 3:3 - 6. What a moment it was for Moses! The divine appearance and all that was said to him was so that he might not interfere or be actuated by wrong thoughts or principles; that he might do everything properly and rightly.

W.W.M. It says, "Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see". God sees when we turn aside to take on His things.

J.T. So you see the young brothers and sisters, and it is a question of what they are doing. Are they turning aside to be at the meetings? That is the principle of it. God sees what we do and how we are affected.

D.P. Is Moses now in the full glow of the accumulated knowledge of God that has come down to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob, so that he is now ready for a fresh revelation?

J.T. Well, we want to go on to verse 7. "And Jehovah said, I have seen assuredly the affliction of my people who are in Egypt, and their cry have I heard on account of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows. And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good and spacious land, unto a land flowing with milk and honey, unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. And now behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me; and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. And now come, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt", Exodus 3:7 - 11.

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These are wonderful remarks, especially for any who have thought of serving the Lord even in the smallest measure; God is taking account of every movement and of where we are so that we can get in touch with Him and His service, and help His people.

W.W.M. Would you say a little more about what the bush represents?

J.T. Oh, I think smallness; a thorn-bush is not any great thing, still it is great enough to be taken into God's service.

W.W.M. Moses mentions it in Deuteronomy 33 when he says, "Let the good will of him that dwelt in the bush come upon the head of Joseph", Deuteronomy 33:16.

J.T. That is the one we have here, showing that it is well known; "him that dwelt in the bush"; here it is called the thorn-bush. God is there in spite of the smallness of the thing.

W.W.M. So however small we may be as to numbers, yet God is with that which is small but still maintaining things. In the Lord's word to Philadelphia, He speaks of their having a little strength and not denying His name.

J.T. Someone has said that the brethren were like squirrels; they run along a path and disappear up a tree, as if they would never appear again. The person who said that has gone, but the brethren are here yet.

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W.W.M. A brother once said that the beasts are going on, the fish are going through, and the birds are going up. He likened that to the saints.

J.T. Just so. The Lord Jesus went up, a cloud received Him out of the sight of His disciples. Well, where is He? That is the wonderful thing. We speak of the worlds, not of the world, but worlds. Where are they all? Nobody knows where they are. The earth may be the only one with an atmosphere so far as we know, but where the atmosphere is life is.

Rem. The Lord cites from this section to prove that there is a resurrection. "I am ... the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob", Matthew 22:32.

J.T. Yes, but He has gone up. He led the disciples out as far as to Bethany and then He went up; He lifted up His hands and blessed them, and went up from them, and He is up there yet, though He is coming presently -- into the air.

J.T.Jr. Have you something more in mind about what up means as you have been speaking about it? It is a physical thought but we should know what is meant by it. What have you been thinking about it?

J.T. The Lord led the disciples out as far as to Bethany and He lifted up His hands and blessed them, and as He blessed them He was carried up into heaven and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And then we have to go to Paul and see what he experienced. He says, "I know a man in Christ", not a man only, but a man in Christ, "fourteen years ago ... that he was caught up into paradise" -- caught up into paradise! And further that he "heard unspeakable things said which it is not allowed to man to utter. Of such a one I will boast, but of myself I will not boast", 2 Corinthians 12:5.

A.R. You have stressed the difference between his being caught up as far as the third heaven, and into paradise. It is a helpful distinction.

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J.H.E. The Lord says in John 12, "And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me", John 12:32. Many quote that verse leaving out the phrase, "out of the earth", but it is important to put that in.

J.T. The next thing is what the Lord will do with us. He was lifted up but He is going to take us up. The Lord Himself will come, it says, "with an assembling shout, with archangel's voice and with trump of God ... then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds ... and thus we shall be always with the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17. And so it is not only being caught up, but to be ever with the Lord; and assembly formation is involved in that.

J.H.E. Philippians 3:20 should be helpful. Paul says there that "our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory, according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself", Philippians 3:20

J.T. There is finality in those words.

A.R. I have been wondering about the idea of ascension. It says in Ephesians that He has raised us up together and made us to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ; but it says of the Lord Jesus that He has ascended far above all heavens.

J.T. He has gone above all the heavens, one has often thought of that; He has gone above all the heavens; that is, into an uncreated condition. I would call it that. The heavens were created but the uncreated is where God is, and where Christ is.

G.H. I am not clear about what you said as to Paul going as far as the third heaven, and being caught up into paradise.

J.T. I was just stressing the word into there. He went as far as the third heaven, but into paradise.

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It refers to some very blessed place and the third heaven refers to altitude; we are going to that altitude and we are going into something -- paradise. It is a question of apprehending what paradise means; it is a place of pleasure, supreme pleasure.

Ques. In Exodus 24 Jehovah said to Moses, "Come up", and it says "Moses rose up", and "Moses went up"; and then it says that "Moses went up to the mountain", and again it says that "Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and ascended the mountain", Exodus 24:12 - 15. Is he a type there of the Lord going up?

J.T. Moses is entitled to all that. He is a type, but he is entitled to it because of the dignity God put upon him.

J.H.E. The queen of Sheba saw the ascent by which Solomon went up to the house of Jehovah.

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MAN (12)

Exodus 3:1 - 6; Exodus 5:20 - 23; Numbers 12:1 - 16

J.T. It is thought that the scriptures read will suffice to convey some further thoughts as to Man, which is our subject in these readings. The thought now is that manhood will be seen in the character of Moses and the qualities that show themselves in him; the lowliness, and especially the meekness. He is said to have been the meekest man in all the earth, which is very suggestive. So that our subject at this time as bringing in meekness in man will link us in our thoughts with the Lord Jesus as He Himself says, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, ... for I am meek and lowly in heart; ... for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light", Matthew 11:28 - 30. I think it is well to remind the brethren that man was not introduced early in the divine ways: angels were evidently created much earlier, known to God and used of God at an earlier period. So that the subject of Man comes in as of peculiar interest in the first of Genesis: "Let us make man in our image" -- the word 'man' implying both man and woman, male and female -- "after our likeness; and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. So that man was peculiarly in the mind of God. As we come on to Exodus we can see the force of it in the service of God because Moses is the great man for the service. So that it is said of the Lord that "having begun from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself", Luke 24:27.

R.W.S. It says in Exodus 2:21, "And Moses consented to remain with the man", Exodus 2:21. Would there be something of manhood coming out in his consenting to this changed position in his circumstances?

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J.T. Yes; we have earlier noticed that Jethro was concerned about his daughters leaving the man. "Where is he?" he said of him. So the man Moses is evidently in the mind of the Spirit in this sense.

R.W.S. I suppose Moses would have been a prince in Egypt, and now he is content to dwell with a priest in Midian, which must have been a test to him practically in his changed circumstances and would bring out the work of God in him.

J.T. As you suggest, there was a drop as to his own position and dignity. Zipporah the daughter of the priest of Midian became his wife.

S.C.M. Is it not worthy of note to see from where Moses sprang? It is stated that "a man of the house of Levi went and took a daughter of Levi", Exodus 2:1.

J.T. Family status is in mind, I suppose, which is important. In the marriages amongst the brethren there is the family status, but that family is to be the family of God, not any other. No such thing as natural family status is to be made much of amongst the saints; it is a question of the family of God; and so the word, "See what love the Father has given to us, that we should be called the children of God", 1 John 3:1. The children of God have family dignity, dignity according to God.

J.H.E. This revelation which God was giving Moses at the thorn-bush would make him superior to the man with whom he was residing. God gave him this wonderful communication, which I suppose he never forgot: "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God". How much superior was his position to that of the priest of Midian!

J.T. Just so, so that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are brought in; and if you speak of distinction as in manhood, there it lies, in that family.

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A.N.W. Could there be any greater honour than for a man to say by divine inspiration, as Moses did, "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up to you out of your brethren like me: him shall ye hear", Acts 3:22? That is an amazing scripture, referring as it does to the Lord, but honouring Moses as no other could be honoured.

A.B.P. Would you say that manhood in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is to be perpetuated? The Lord says, as to this passage, that God is the God of the living, and I wondered if that suggests that as such He delights to continue this kind of man.

J.T. That is what we hope to get to; some thought about manhood that will stay with us and distinguish us. We do not belong to the lower creatures, however dignified they may be, we belong to man; so the word is, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness", Genesis 1:26. That shows what was in the mind of God, that He would do that, and He waited a long time to do it; He made other creatures long before.

E.A.L. In Luke 16, in the narrative, Abraham says, "They have Moses and the prophets", Luke 16:29. The Lord makes the prophetic words and the words of Moses very important there, does He not?

J.T. Just so, and He would direct us to Moses personally. What distinction he had in his history! He was with the Lord on the mount of transfiguration; Moses and Elias were both there. Moses was thus peculiarly distinguished as well as Elijah.

F.H.L. Is there any suggestion in Moses' name meaning 'drawn out', as if there was something special coming to light?

J.T. Just so, he was placed in the water, he began with water, so to speak, and he was drawn out. And Noah built an ark for the saving of his house. We are told that "few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water", 1 Peter 3:20.

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It shows the great place water has in the divine operations.

A.R. What is suggested in the thorn-bush?

J.T. Humility, I would say, it is nothing at all in itself, it is not like an oak or an apple tree; I believe what is in mind is humility, and in how lowly a way the whole race has begun! But then if you apply that to ourselves it becomes us to appropriate the fact that we belong to another order of man; not Adam, but Christ. And so God says, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. They were very lowly, of course, as created out of dust, but God immediately establishes them in personal greatness: "Let them have dominion", they both had dominion.

J.H.E. We often sing,

"Through weakness and defeat
He won the meed and crown;
Trod all our foes beneath His feet,
In being trodden down". (Hymn 24)

We delight in those features seen in the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Quite so; the Lord accepted reproach and humiliation, and that, of course, is to mark us as it marked the Lord Jesus.

C.A.M. Would you say that what Moses learned in the vision was another order of manhood?

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. In contrast to the Egyptian man? Egypt, I suppose, represents the sphere of man in his pride.

J.T. That is the ground Pharaoh takes.

F.H.L. Was Moses to learn that God was committed to this kind of man, this kind of people, as represented in the bush?

J.T. Yes, that is right; so that we might as well look at the first passage read, in chapter 3: "And Moses tended the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God -- to Horeb. And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thorn-bush: and he looked, and behold, the thorn-bush burned with fire, and the thorn-bush was not being consumed. And Moses said, Let me now turn aside and see this great sight, why the thorn-bush is not burnt. And Jehovah saw that he turned aside to see, and God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush and said, Moses, Moses! And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: loose thy sandals from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look at God".

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So that we have Moses prominently in the divine mind in this passage; and he is in a lowly attitude, for it is at the thorn-bush. God called to him out of the midst of the thorn-bush saying, "Moses, Moses!". The double mention of his name is to call attention to him, the person drawn out of the water; that is what his name means and it is to give character to his whole life. We are born of water and of Spirit, everyone of us who is born of God is born of water and of Spirit. So that Moses has these characteristics.

C.A.M. That is very interesting; and the way you stressed the meekness of Moses was very impressive. It says, "Blessed the meek, for they shall inherit the earth", Matthew 5:5. What a place Moses had in that regard!

J.T. Yes; and the Lord says, "I am meek and lowly in heart" Matthew 11:29; it is the acceptance by the Lord Jesus of man's place. Hence when it speaks of "the man Moses" it suggests "the man Christ Jesus". "For God is one", we are told, "and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. He is the mediator of God and men.

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J.H.E. Even Pilate, who was so weak as judge, had to say, "Behold the man!". The passage reads, "Pilate went out again and says to them, Lo, I bring him out to you, that ye may know that I find in him no fault whatever. (Jesus therefore went forth without, wearing the crown of thorn, and the purple robe.) And he says to them, Behold the man!" John 19:4,5.

J.T. Yes; whatever Pilate had in his mind, it was reproach; but it was distinction nevertheless. The greatest possible distinction enters into it, because it is moral distinction.

Ques. We often speak of Luke 23:41, "This man has done nothing amiss", Luke 23:41. Would that be a higher thought than Pilate's?

J.T. "This man has done nothing amiss". Well, quite. God has His own way of distinguishing men or persons; it may be that it is in lowliness, but it is nevertheless divine distinction. The very lowliness involves distinction, that He should have taken such a place!

A.N.W. I was struck with the fact that the Spirit leads Moses to say, "Let me now turn aside and see this great sight". He calls it a "great sight".

J.T.Jr. I suppose the colours in Numbers 4 would perhaps suggest this distinctiveness of which you are speaking. There were the blue and the scarlet and the purple; these distinctive colours no doubt were in Christ in a moral way as He moved here. There would be suggestions of the same thing in Moses. We are told in Numbers 4 that the ark was covered with a cloth wholly of blue, and then a cloth of scarlet was placed over the utensils on the table, and a purple cloth was spread upon the altar.

J.T. That is, these colours are peculiarly distinctive, they attract the eye; and they would refer to

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something that is divine. While there may be nothing in a literal sense, yet they indicate what is divine. They are distinctly attractive in that sense.

A.R. Does the tabernacle system correspond in any way with chapter 3 of Exodus?

J.T. Well, I would think so; because we must have distinction if we are dealing with man in relation to God. And so we are to consider such a man as Moses; you might say, in a sense, Moses was the greatest man next to Christ.

A.B.P. Would that be seen in Revelation 15 where it speaks of the sea of glass, and it says that those who stand upon it sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb? Moses has a very distinctive place there, along with the Lamb.

J.T. That is very significant, because it is "the song of Moses ... and the song of the Lamb" Revelation 15:3; it is humility, yet it is distinction, God selecting something in the sense of moral distinction. Singing the song of Moses suggests suffering; he belonged to a suffering people, and the Lamb was a sufferer. It is an allusion to lowliness, the word 'Lamb' is a diminutive; it is not a great lamb, but a little one; we accept what is small and yet what is morally great.

F.N.W. The Lord Jesus was meek; should we not be likewise as a company?

J.T. Just so. It is a question of what God makes us, because the new birth must underlie it all according to John's gospel; the new birth must underlie everything. The Lord was meek and lowly in heart, as we have said, but we must be born again, that is the first thing, born again; and then born of water and of Spirit, the second thought. The water which means cleansing must come into it.

J.T.Jr. Meekness is a fruit of the Spirit, is it not? In Galatians it is mentioned in the fruit: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, fidelity, meekness, self-control", Galatians 5:22.

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J.T. Quite so; and the last is self-control; that is a fine expression!

E.E.H. Is there something mysterious in the thorn-bush being burned and yet not being consumed?

J.T. It is mysterious; it is a miracle, God is pleased to work miracles; they are signs, just signs, but they are miracles nevertheless.

E.E.H. I was thinking that it says that Moses turned aside to see why it was not consumed.

J.T. Showing that he was interested. God has great pleasure in seeing His people interested in His things or in Himself; because we ought to be interested in everything that is of God. How many people spend a great deal of time reading newspapers and novels and that sort of thing that does not relate to God at all. The Scriptures relate to God and the Holy Spirit's activities relate to God; He carries on the ministry of Christ. So that it is a question of where our interests lie.

S. W. Is there a point in that the thorn-bush was in Horeb, the mount of God?

J.T. Quite so; that is where the blessing is. He came to mount Horeb, the mount of God, it says.

C.W.M. Paul, when speaking to the Corinthians in connection with the world not knowing God says, "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom has not known God, God has been pleased by the foolishness of the preaching to save those that believe. Since Jews indeed ask for signs, and Greeks seek wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews an offence, and to nations foolishness; but to those that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ God's power and God's wisdom", 1 Corinthians 1:1 - 24

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J.T. The first epistle to the Corinthians leads up to that; the apostle Paul makes a point of it in the character of his preaching. He did not pretend to be any great preacher using eloquent words or phrases, but his words were in power, there was power there.

C.W.M. You have been stressing in relation to Moses, that he was the meekest man in all the earth; so that though the world by wisdom knew not God, the apostle brought God in by preaching this glorious Person who is God's power and God's wisdom.

J.T. The preaching in the mouth of a lowly man like Paul would not be eloquent; although he was an educated man, yet he was content to be nothing. There were those who said that his bodily presence was weak, and his speech contemptible. That is the way he was regarded by some and that is how the matter stands with us, as to whether we are content to be little but yet to be in power, that there should be power in our words; not simply words that men would speak in human wisdom with great flowing phrases, but words spoken in littleness. His bodily presence is weak, they said, and his speech contemptible.

S.C.M. Is power seen when some were sent to take Jesus, and the Pharisees enquired, "Why have ye not brought him?", and they said, "Never man spoke thus, as this man speaks"? John 7:45,46. Was the power seen there?

J.T. Quite so, "Never man spoke thus, as this man speaks", that was the word. Never a man spoke like Him. What wonderful words they must have been!

G.H. The apostle speaking to the Corinthians in the second epistle says, "But I myself, Paul, entreat you by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ", 2 Corinthians 10:1. Is that the idea?

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J.T. Very excellent, that is just the point, "the meekness and gentleness of the Christ".

R.W.S. Would this section represent secret history with God? I understand that the first forty years of Moses' life were in Egypt, the second forty years behind the wilderness, and the third forty years in leading the children of Israel through the wilderness. Does not this suggest secret history with God before we serve?

J.T. It is wonderful that we should have these three parts to his life, as you have mentioned; in Egypt, and then in the wilderness, and then leading the people. And in leading them out he asked God to show him that goodly mountain and Lebanon; he asked Jehovah for that and Jehovah granted him to see it. He wanted to see that, and I think God let him see it. But he was one hundred and twenty years old, and it would seem as if his life had been divinely divided into three parts so that all he had intended to do, or that was to be done by him, should be done. He completed his work, he finished his work, like the Lord Jesus. The Lord said, "I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it"; John 17:4 and I would think Moses an apt type of that; he finished the work. His life was made up of three parts.

Ques. Is the Angel referred to here the same as the Angel spoken of in Exodus 23?

J.T. Well, we just wonder if the latter is not the Holy Spirit; if you will read from chapter 23 I think we shall see there is something that would point to the Holy Spirit.

Ques. "Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee to the place that I have prepared. Be careful in his presence, and hearken unto his voice: do not provoke him, for he will not forgive your transgressions; for my name is in him", Exodus 23:20,21.

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J.T. Just so; I think that is remarkable.

W.W.M. The Lord in John 8 refers to Himself as a man; He says, "Ye seek to kill me, a man who has spoken the truth to you" John 8:40.

J.T. Just so; the Lord does not say the man; just a man. Was there something more in your mind?

W.W.M. I was thinking of His manhood; how God has been set out in a Man for us; and I suppose our readings are that we might be formed in that order of Man.

J.T. Just so, and in lowliness in service.

Ques. It is not until the third part of the life of Moses that it is recorded of him that he was the meekest man in all the earth. Is there some instruction in that for us who are younger? We may not be naturally meek.

J.T.Jr. The allusion to John 8 brings in Christ in conflict, 'the Man of John 8'. That came up in London last year. I suppose it comes out here in Moses; in chapter 5 he is a man in conflict in Egypt and able to stand up against the enemy.

J.T. We referred in London to the words of Mr. Bellett: 'The Man of the 8th of John', he would say; that is Christ.

Ques. There is difficulty with some about bringing the union matter into conflict; that is, whether we should take things up, or whether we should let the Lord take care of everything. Is there any help for us tonight about that?

J.T. It is a question of the power to deal with evil, and to assert good.

Ques. We might take out of this thought of meekness tonight that if the brethren, in taking a stand, should lose their positions they ought to just accept it. But that would not be quite the truth, would it? Do we not enter into conflict at times?

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J.T. The Lord did that, when the time for it came, and it was said that never man spake like Him. That is what it says. And that should come out in anyone of us, that we have a right spirit in what we are saying, and that we say it in a right and intelligent way; and that we convey something of God in what we say and do.

A.Macd. Do you think the words of Moses would help? He said, "Here am I". Availability to God is a mark of manhood.

J.T. Very good, "Here am I", to be ready for anything the Lord wants one to do.

Rem. In John 8 the Lord Jesus stooped down twice. "But this they said proving him, that they might have something to accuse him of. But Jesus, having stooped down, wrote with his finger on the ground". And then in verse 8, "And again stooping down he wrote on the ground", John 8:6 - 8. I only thought of this wonderful matter of meekness, stooping down.

J.T. And then His writing on the ground! Think of that! Think of the Lord graciously condescending to stoop down and write on the ground! He might have taken a slate and written on that and hung it up on the wall, but He wrote on the ground. There is humility in that. But what a writing! We are not told what He wrote, it is the fact that He wrote on the ground, and He stooped down to do it. There is humility in the Lord Jesus.

A.B.P. Would it not appear that the verses we read in Exodus 5 have to do with the labour problem?

J.T. Very good, that will help us, so that I think the passage might be read again. That is a burning question just now and brethren here and elsewhere are suffering from it.

A.B.P. The paragraph begins with verse 19 where it says, "Ye shall not diminish anything from your bricks, the daily work. And they met Moses and Aaron, who stood there to meet them, as they came out from Pharaoh. And they said to them, Jehovah look upon you and judge, that ye have made our odour to stink in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his bondmen, putting a sword into their hand to kill us! And Moses returned to Jehovah, and said, Lord, why hast thou done evil to this people? why now hast thou sent me? For ever since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath done evil to this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all!"

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J.T. That is a passage to be remembered, the humility that entered into Moses' and Aaron's attitude at this time. "Jehovah look upon you and judge", the officers said; that is to say they were reproaching Moses and Aaron, reproving them; Moses and Aaron are suffering as they take up this matter of the oppression of the Lord's people.

J.T.Jr. It would take a good deal of courage for these men to go in before Pharaoh. They were really going to the supreme court in Egypt. It says that they went in; and they continually went in, showing that they had to come before the government in the matter.

J.T. Just so, and God knows what has to be done, and it may be that He will take up some persons who will do the speaking for Him; that is the idea. It is God speaking, nevertheless the speaking is by others. God may do that.

J.H.E. In Australia it would appear that there was right speaking before the authorities, and God helped the authorities to give a right judgment.

J.T. That is a very good illustration -- what happened in N.S.W., Australia. We should remember the case, because it involved suffering.

E.A.L. Testimony was rendered, in effect, that God has given His people a conscience to judge evil,

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not to compromise with it. As having a judgment that trade unionism is evil, there can be no compromise with it.

Rem. Some may have difficulty about going to the authorities, but chapter 5:1 says, "And afterwards Moses and Aaron went in, and said to Pharaoh, Thus saith Jehovah", Exodus 5:1. So that there is a basis for going to the authorities and stating matters.

J.T. Well now, with regard to the scriptures before us, we are going forward in a general way as to the thought of manhood with a view to finishing up in the book of Revelation next year. I mention this so that the brethren will have in mind what is before us, and that we may read about these things and pray about them. Now in the limited time left we should proceed to the passage read in Numbers 12.

Rem. Reference has been made tonight to the passage in 1 Timothy 2; I wondered if perhaps we could read it before going on to Numbers: "For God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. And prior to this we have, "I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men; for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity", 1 Timothy 2:1,2. I was wondering if this matter of approaching the authorities does not fit into this passage, "... that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity". In our prayer meetings and private prayers we speak to God in relation to these matters, and that gives us a basis on which to approach men in authority in relation to the welfare of the Lord's people.

J.T. That is all very simple and I believe intelligible to all here. The thing for the brethren, each one, is to take these things to heart and make them a matter of prayer, so that if the authorities have to

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be approached we shall know what to do and how to do it, in a gracious way so that we shall be acceptable to men.

A.N.W. Sometimes we have had a question as to the rightness of the apostle making his appeal to Caesar. In the light of what has been said can we endorse his appealing to Caesar? The king said that if he had not appealed to Caesar he could be let go; but apparently the divine mind was that he was to appear before Caesar.

J.T. Well, I would think that Paul has to be taken into account in a special way because he was the leading assembly man; and he spent considerable time in prison as a sufferer. He was a prisoner, and he appeals to us: "Remember my bonds", Colossians 4:18. He was a great sufferer for the truth. And that is the one thing I think that we all need to accept, that we are to be sufferers for the truth; the thing is to be prepared to suffer for the truth; suffer evil with the glad tidings. It is given unto us "as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also", Philippians 1:29 and that is what is needed.

C.A.M. So that there is a good objective attained in testimony if we call attention to the fact that there is suffering for Christ's sake.

J.T. Yes; we are to be sufferers whatever else may happen. It is given to us to suffer for His sake.

A.B.P. God says to Pharaoh, "Let my son go, that he may serve me", Exodus 4:23. Should that not underlie the effort to liberate the saints? It is not merely that relief is wanted but liberty to serve God.

J.T. The word 'son' is affecting, "Let my son go, that he may serve me". It properly alludes to Christ, but also to Israel; Israel suffered, the twelve tribes suffered from the very outset. But then God had to deal with them eventually and He handed the government of the world over to the gentiles,

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and that is where it is today. In the epistle to the Romans we are told how we are to act in relation to them, in regard to these matters. Now we will go on with chapter 12 of Numbers: "And Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had taken; for he had taken a Cushite as wife. And they said, Has Jehovah indeed spoken only to Moses? has he not spoken also to us? And Jehovah heard it. But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth". Here Moses is being persecuted by his own brother and sister, and it often happens. "Then Jehovah spoke suddenly to Moses, and to Aaron, and to Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tent of meeting. And they went out, they three. And Jehovah came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Jehovah will make myself known to him in a vision, I will speak to him in a dream. Not so my servant Moses: he is faithful in all my house. Mouth to mouth do I speak to him openly, and not in riddles; and the form of Jehovah doth he behold. Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses? And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against them, and he went away". Now we have the case of a brother, the most faithful man that we know of until the Lord Jesus came, one of the most faithful men in the history of the Scriptures, and he was a sufferer; others persecuted him, his own brethren persecuted him, and we have to watch for this that we do not persecute our brethren for any cause, especially if it be a marital affair. Very often persecution arises from this cause, and the thing is to learn from the kind of man that we are dealing with in this chapter, to see how he shines in this peculiar matter. His

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brother and sister were against him but they were in the wrong and he was in the right, and God defended him.

Rem. Paul's word to Timothy says that "a bondman of the Lord ought not to contend, but be gentle towards all; apt to teach; forbearing; in meekness setting right those who oppose, if God perhaps may sometime give them repentance to acknowledgment of the truth", 2 Timothy 2:24,25.

J.T. Very good. And so it says, "Miriam and Aaron", it is not Aaron and Miriam; that is to say, it is a sister that is principally involved. It was Miriam, Moses' own sister. And so it says, "Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had taken; for he had taken a Cushite as wife. And they said, Has Jehovah indeed spoken only to Moses? has he not spoken also to us?". You see they were envious of Moses; his own brother and sister were envious of him.

F.H.N. Miriam is called a prophetess in Exodus 15.

T.E.H. She did excellent work earlier in the book when she stood before the daughter of Pharaoh in relation to fetching a nurse for Moses; she had intelligence then, but now she is below the mark.

J.T. Yes; on that occasion she asked if she might get a nurse for Moses; but now Moses is the great leader of God's people, and he is being persecuted by Miriam and Aaron.

A.N.W. And yet he becomes her mediator to cry to Jehovah to heal her. That is the kind of man he was.

J.T. And now the third verse is a beautiful verse: "But the man Moses was very meek, above all men that were upon the face of the earth". Is there anybody like him outside the Lord Jesus Himself, when suffering in this way? "Then Jehovah spoke suddenly to Moses, and to Aaron, and to Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tent of meeting".

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Both Aaron and Miriam are under divine discipline, but Moses is justified. Miriam and Aaron are condemned. Moses was pleased to go with them, Jehovah tells him to do it. "And they went out, they three". They did exactly what they were told to do now. "And Jehovah came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forth". And then, later, Jehovah says, "Why then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant, against Moses?". So that we are reminded now, dear brethren, about speaking against the brethren. If any are guilty of it we should judge ourselves now, at a time like this. "And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against them, and he went away; and the cloud departed from off the tent. And behold, Miriam was leprous as snow" -- a most terrible thing that this should happen to such a woman as this, the sister of Aaron and the sister of Moses; "and Aaron turned toward Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not this sin upon us, wherein we have been foolish, and have sinned! Let her not be as one stillborn, half of whose flesh is consumed when he comes out of his mother's womb. And Moses cried to Jehovah, saying, O God, heal her, I beseech thee! And Jehovah said to Moses, But had her father anyways spat in her face, should she not be shamed seven days? She shall be shut outside the camp seven days". That is the sentence, a clear sentence of judgment; "and afterwards she shall be received in again. And Miriam was shut outside the camp seven days; and the people did not journey till Miriam was received in again". That is one of the most wholesome lessons that I think we could have at this present time, so as to check any tendency to speaking against the brethren.

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D.P. Zipporah was given to Moses; but Moses took the Ethiopian woman. Would that indicate that he knew what he was doing?

J.T. He knew what he was doing. He deliberately married the Ethiopian woman. The word is that she may marry whom she will, "only in the Lord", 1 Corinthians 7:39.

A.R. Does the chapter not show the seriousness of this attack in that it is the only place where the cloud leaves the tabernacle in the wilderness?

J.T. Quite so; it was a very serious matter.

A.B.P. Is it not particularly touching that Moses should be vindicated in this matter inasmuch as it typifies that the Lord Jesus is willing to identify Himself with us in all our peculiarities and lack of attractiveness in wilderness conditions?

J.T. And if we have committed sin, it says it shall be forgiven; committed sins can be forgiven if they are confessed. Why should we not confess sins and have them forgiven? And if we are sick we may be made well; we are to call for the elders of the assembly and we may be made well.

D.Macd. What Miriam did hindered the journey of the children of Israel, as seen in the last verse. If we speak against any godly effort to meet the union question it might hinder the matter.

Rem. It says in Acts 12, "Unceasing prayer was made by the assembly" Acts 12:5 for Peter. It was a governmental matter really, was it not? And in the end of the chapter the Lord dealt with the king because he was not right.

J.T. Just so.

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MAN (13)

Joshua 1:1 - 18

J.T. It is well that the brethren should have in mind the order of Scripture, and that Joshua comes in after the Pentateuch; that is to say the books of Moses. Moses may be regarded as representing official ministry. He is the first great minister appointed of Jehovah. Of course we have Adam and others earlier, and things are dated from Adam, but Moses has the place of official minister. The Lord, when He arose from the dead, began from Moses and from all the prophets and interpreted in all the Scriptures unto his disciples "the things concerning himself", Luke 24:27. So that we have a wide field opened up to us at this time. We have been occupied with the subject of 'Man' in these monthly readings, and we thought that the subject should be continued during the year before us. Joshua should fit in nicely to help us as to the general position in the order in which Scripture is written and in which it comes before us. As it is stated, "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:16. It is the time for men of God to be perfected.

With these remarks we might look at the chapter read because Joshua is peculiarly fitted to follow on Moses; it is a question of the replacement of Moses, a continuation of Moses' ministry. But at the same time Joshua has a ministry distinct to himself and a distinct commission, as we shall see in the verses read; that is, he is directly commissioned of God. It is not simply that he is selected to take Moses' place, he is directly commissioned of God to take it; so that it says, "And it came to pass after the death of Moses the servant of Jehovah, that Jehovah spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' attendant, saying, Moses my servant is dead; and now, rise up, go over this Jordan, thou and all this people, into the land which I give unto them, to the children of Israel. Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread have I given to you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon to the great river, the river Euphrates, the whole land of the Hittites, to the great sea, toward the going down of the sun, shall be your border. None shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so will I be with thee; I will not leave thee, neither will I forsake thee. Be strong and courageous, for thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land which I have sworn unto their fathers to give them. Only be strong and very courageous, that thou mayest take heed to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded thee. Turn not from it to the right or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart from thy mouth; and thou shalt meditate upon it day and night, that thou mayest take heed to do according to all that is written therein; for then shalt thou have good success in thy ways, and then shalt thou prosper. Have I not commanded thee: Be strong and courageous? Be not afraid, neither be dismayed; for Jehovah thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest".

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I thought it would be well to read this whole passage because it conveys the commission that Joshua received as taking the place of Moses. It really implies the idea of official ministry, an idea that has come down to us from Moses; taken up in the New Testament, of course, by the Lord Himself, but particularly taken up by Paul as under the Lord Jesus and by His guidance. So that we may take up Joshua as being Moses'

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attendant and the successor to Moses, having an appointment directly from God Himself; thus, in that sense, we could not have anything greater or higher in appointment for service than we have here in Joshua.

F.H.L. Does he stand out as a type of Christ in a special way due to the meaning of his name?

J.T. Well, the name 'Joshua' means 'Jesus', the Greek reads that way, but the name in itself is hardly a type and I think would not afford much. Jesus is the Beginner of things, He is not the continuation of anything; He is the beginning of things. The name given to Jesus as born of Mary was official as we might say; "He shall save his people from their sins", it says in Matthew 1:21.

A.R. Would official ministry be seen in Matthew 5 where it says that the Lord went up to the mountain and sat down and His disciples came to Him, and having opened His mouth He taught them? Would that suggest official ministry as stressing the authority of the Lord Jesus? He says, "I say unto you".

J.T. His authority is seen there, but then Matthew is not the beginning of the ministry. Morally John is the beginning of the apostolic ministry. Morally John is the greatest because he presents the Person of Christ; he says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1. That is the idea of the beginning of ministry; all is flowing out from God Himself, God in Christ.

C.A.M. Do you not think that Moses' prayer in Numbers 27 is noteworthy? He asked Jehovah, the God of the spirits of all flesh, to set a man over the assembly; and then Jehovah says, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit", Numbers 27:18.

J.T. Yes; that is what I thought ought to commend the whole passage to us at this time. He is a man who had the Spirit, and the way the Spirit has

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been brought before us of late is of supreme importance. Therefore Joshua is a fitting one to come into our reading because he is a man who had the Spirit; it says, "A man in whom is the Spirit".

A.N.W. Almost the closing words of Deuteronomy say, "And Joshua the son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him; and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as Jehovah had commanded Moses", Deuteronomy 34:9.

J.T. That fits in very well and reminds us of apostolic service in the New Testament, because that is exactly what Paul did; he laid his hands on certain persons, such as Timothy. The laying on of hands is committal, apostolic committal in the case of the apostles.

V.C.L. Does the fact that he is called Moses' attendant suggest that he was a disciplined man and hence usable for a commission?

J.T. He was a disciplined man in that he had been under orders; he was an attendant on Moses, the first great official minister of the truth.

A.H. Would Exodus 17 indicate Joshua's qualities in that regard? It is not said that Moses broke the power of Amalek, but that Joshua did it. He did it after the type of the incoming of the Spirit in that chapter.

J.T. Quite so; he was commissioned by Moses to do that. But then he has a peculiar place in that he is Moses' attendant, and then Moses' successor, so that he has a peculiar right to attention at this time.

C.F.E. It is also said of him in Exodus 33 that he departed not from within the tent.

J.T. It is a very good commendation for any brother that he attends the meetings. A good many of us are here tonight, but there are not always so many.

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E.A.L. When you read the first paragraph of our chapter you seemed to put strong emphasis on the fact that "strong and courageous" is mentioned there three times. The chapter finishes up with the people telling Joshua to be strong and courageous.

J.T. Courage is a quality, and that, of course, is what is stressed in Joshua's case, that he needed the quality of courage. He had a big matter on hand, he needed to be strong and very courageous. And we should notice that the two and a half tribes took the place of obedience at once, they did what Joshua told them to do.

A.B.P. You spoke of official ministry. We have come to see the need for what is called 'authoritative ministry' in our day, Is there any difference in your mind?

J.T. Well, the word 'official' means that the person is in the place of office. Office is a place assigned to a certain person to do something, and Joshua is put into office instead of Moses who had the office. But Jehovah said, He is dead. That is a good reason why somebody else should take his place. If one of our number dies then that is the end of his service down here.

A.B.P. At the present time would you say the Lord's speaking in the assembly is official ministry or rather that there is authoritative ministry?

J.T. Both are right; official ministry would be authoritative ministry. The official is appointed by someone above him; headship is above, as we get in 1 Corinthians 11, "The head of every man is Christ ... and the head of Christ is God", 1 Corinthians 11:3. The head of Christ is God, that is where authority lies. It is a question of what God does.

A.P. Would the gifts of Ephesians 4 fit in here? "And he has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to the work of the ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ", Ephesians 4:11,12.

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J.T. Note that it is "with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ". That is the point in ministry.

Ques. In Acts 17 it says that Paul reasoned with them from the Scriptures, "opening and laying down that the Christ must have suffered and risen up from among the dead", Acts 17:3. Is that authoritative ministry?

J.T. Just so; "laying down" would suggest authority.

Ques. If a gifted brother dies, does the assembly lose his gift?

J.T. Well, take a man like Moses; the saints lost a great deal when Moses died. Is that what you mean?

Ques. What I am really inquiring is as to the gifts given by Christ to the assembly; they are here under the Spirit's control, are they not? If a gifted brother goes to be with the Lord, is his gift still here, and may the Holy Spirit develop that gift in someone else?

J.T. I do not know, that remains with God; the man himself remains with God, if he dies he goes to be with the Lord. The Lord said to the malefactor, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise", Luke 23:43. Well, what became of the position then? If a man has a gift and he dies, that gift reverts back to God; you cannot say that that gift is given to somebody else, but just that it may be. I think Joshua was well fitted to replace Moses; Jehovah had ordered that. But at the same time Moses was distinctive, and the Lord made it clear that he is distinctive; there is nobody like him.

E.A.L. Verse 7 of our chapter says, "Only be strong and very courageous, that thou mayest take heed to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded thee". That shows that no one could literally replace Moses.

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J.T. What Moses had commanded was a question of the law, and that remains right down the ages.

R.W.S. Does Timothy correspond in the New Testament?

J.T. Well, what we have said as to Moses may be said also of Paul. No one could take his place.

R.W.S. Paul begged Timothy to stay at Ephesus; this was to do what was needed, Paul being absent. But this does not imply that Timothy had Paul's gift.

J.T. He appointed him to remain at Ephesus, according to 1 Timothy 1:3: "Even as I begged thee to remain in Ephesus, when I was going to Macedonia, that thou mightest enjoin some not to teach other doctrines, nor to turn their minds to fables and interminable genealogies, which bring questionings rather than further God's dispensation, which is in faith", 1 Timothy 1:3,4. I would think therefore that he was appointed officially, to carry on the service; he was fitted to do it; Paul laid his hands on him, that is to say he passed on, in some sense, his gift; not that he constituted timothy an apostle, but at the same time he had laid his hands on him; and thus enjoined him what to do at Ephesus.

R.W.S. And he did not have the spirit of cowardice.

E.E.H. What about the spirit of Elijah resting upon Elisha? Is there anything corresponding to that today?

J.T. I was thinking about that, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha", 2 Kings 2:15. Elisha is a very good example of what we are saying; Elijah and Elisha were two men working together, that is really what is in mind. So it is that Paul and Barnabas worked together, and then Paul and Timothy worked together. It may be that now there are some two or more working together in the Lord's service; it is a great matter to be working together in unity.

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A.B.P. David and Solomon sat on the throne together.

W.W.M. It says in Acts 13 that when Paul and Barnabas were sent out by the Holy Spirit they had John Mark as their attendant; but he failed for the moment; instead of taking on things as Joshua did he missed it for a time.

J.T. Just so, he was their attendant; it is a way with God that there should be persons who attend upon those who are leading in ministry, that there should be persons to support them.

F.H.L. Moses himself in Deuteronomy 31 is in line with the mind of God, is he not, in committing this same mission to Joshua? He says, "Be strong and courageous, for thou must go with this people into the land", Deuteronomy 31:7. And in Joshua 1:6 God says "Thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land", Joshua 1:6.

J.T. What we have said already about Joshua having the Spirit is a prime matter. It says, "... a man in whom is the Spirit"; and that is the great thing at the present time, the fact that certain persons have the Spirit. If they have gift at the same time; they are all the more valuable if they have gift as well as having the Spirit. Of course, the gift that is there will lie in the Spirit. I believe the gifts all came down with the Spirit and hence they are here throughout the dispensation.

F.N.W. Is the way Paul speaks of himself in Philippians warrant for us to pray that the Lord may extend the life of a servant amongst His people today?

J.T. Well, quite so. We have Mr. Darby, for instance, how his ministry has been passed on to us in writing! And, of course, that may be applied to many persons. It is a question therefore of the saints making all the use they can of those who have gift, and of properly caring for them and providing for them.

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F.N.W. In Philippians 1:24, after speaking about departing to be with Christ the apostle Paul says, "But remaining in the flesh is more necessary for your sakes; and having confidence of this, I know that I shall remain and abide along with you all, for your progress and joy in faith", Philippians 1:24,25.

W.H.McC. Is not the committal of Jehovah to Joshua important? He says, "As I was with Moses, so will I be with thee". I was thinking of what you were saying about Mr. Darby and others who have gone before, as to God being with them; and in the same way He is with those now who are serving us prominently.

J.T. Quite so; He would be with Joshua as He was with Moses.

V.C.L. Does that not lay down a principle, that there is never any rivalry in the ministry? All that the Spirit is saying at one time will agree.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord prayed that the apostles might be one as the Father and He were one; He prayed particularly for that.

A.N.W. Is there something in what a gift may be personally beyond what he is officially? I was thinking of all that came in after the departure of Joshua, all the break-up after his departure, and also after the departure of Paul; whether there is not a bulwark in the person, in what he is in himself in addition to what he is officially.

J.T. I think there was in Moses. It is remarkable how he meets the situation in Exodus 33 and meets it unselfishly; he is ready to be blotted out if Jehovah would not take on the people; he would be blotted out himself.

D.Macd. Paul says the same thing in regard to his brethren in Romans 9:3: "For I have wished, I myself, to be a curse from the Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to flesh", Romans 9:3.

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J.T. Now I think we should notice the territory that Joshua is appointed to allot: "Every place whereon the sole of your foot shall tread have I given to you, as I said unto Moses. From the wilderness and this Lebanon to the great river, the river Euphrates, the whole land of the Hittites, to the great sea, toward the going down of the sun, shall be your border. None shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so will I be with thee; I will not leave thee, neither will I forsake thee. Be strong and courageous, for thou shalt cause this people to inherit the land which I have sworn unto their fathers to give them. Only be strong and very courageous, that thou mayest take heed to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded thee. Turn not from it to the right or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart from thy mouth; and thou shalt meditate upon it day and night, that thou mayest take heed to do according to all that is written therein". So that if it be a case of gift, the person who has the gift has to abide by the Scriptures, to abide by the law like everybody else. His gift does not alter that. We have to abide by the law.

A.H. In view of the extraordinary departure from the Scriptures in these days, does not this matter of courage really have to enter into the hearts of all the saints? I was thinking of this beloved man's word to the children of Israel at the close of his ministry; he tells them to be "very courageous and to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses", Joshua 23:6.

J.T. So that Joshua is abiding by the first command here in verse 7, "... that thou mayest take heed to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded thee. Turn not from it to the right or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest. This book of the law shall not depart from thy mouth; and thou shalt meditate upon it day and night".

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That is the great point, whether we are gifted or not, to attend to the Scriptures, to attend to them and compare them, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. That is what these readings are for amongst the brethren; God has ordained them I am sure and they become a great means of instruction for the young people.

Rem. It says of Paul in Acts 28:23 that he was "testifying of the kingdom of God, and persuading them concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses and the prophets, from early morning to evening", Acts 28:23.

J.T. Very good, from early morning to evening.

A.B.P. The territory outlined here came under control in David's day and not until then, apparently, so that the extent of the inheritance was hardly reached until David's day.

J.T. David enlarged the existing border of the inheritance; he extended it towards the Euphrates.

A.B.P. So there is a link between Joshua and David?

J.T. Clearly.

N.J. Does the setting up of the service of God under David suggest that the official service is to be extended to others, that others are brought into it?

J.T. Quite so; the twenty-four elders refer to that according to the courses under David. David greatly regulated what Moses had ordained at first; he added to it and regulated it because of his moral weight in the things of God. David had a peculiar weight himself, so that he takes a great place as following up Moses; so that the Psalms might be added properly to the Pentateuch. There are the same number of books in the Psalms as in the Pentateuch and they are linked together.

C.A.M. Would the fact that things come out in the Psalms corresponding to the Pentateuch shew

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that the poetic and feeling side of things is to be stressed at the end?

J.T. Very good; the poetic and feeling side; it is good I think for the brethren to attend to the question of poetry -- not poetry in the ordinary sense of the word but spiritual poetry such as Mr. Darby wrote. We often refer to him and rightly, for he passes on right down to us in his writings and in his example too. The excellent example he set before the brethren in his day is passed down to us now.

C.A.M. Would it be right to say that the hymn book is really becoming richer to us inasmuch as such hymns as Mr. Darby's are being sung today with greater meaning?

J.T. Just so. There are about thirty-three of them in our book; they are the best of the whole book, I would think.

R.W.S. Are we not really discovering in our enquiry what a man can do in whom is the Spirit? the power he has by the Spirit and the courage he has to do things?

J.T. Yes. Of course, Jehovah said, "Moses ... is dead"; and Mr. Darby is dead; it is the living ones that have power now, we have to make the most of them.

A.H. Would you say a word as to Deuteronomy 34:9? It says, "And Joshua the son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him", Deuteronomy 34:9. It looks as though Moses had committed himself to this man.

J.T. Numbers 27 tells us that Moses had done so: "And Jehovah said to Moses, Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and thou shalt lay thy hand upon him; and thou shalt set him before Eleazar the priest, and before the whole assembly; and give him commandment before their eyes", Numbers 27:18,19. So that the basic thought there is that he has the Spirit, Joshua is a man who has the Spirit. It is

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a remarkable passage and it gives Joshua a peculiar place in the testimony right down through the Scripture.

A.B.P. And it says also, "And thou shalt put of thine honour upon him, that the whole assembly of the children of Israel may obey him. And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall inquire for him, by the judgment of the Urim before Jehovah: at his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, he, and all the children of Israel with him, even the whole assembly", Numbers 27:21.

J.T. Yes; the Urim is mentioned, the Urim and Thummim are in mind there and it might be well for the brethren to understand what they signify. They afford light; they were in the breastplate of the high priest; light and perfection are in mind. We are to consider persons who are characterised by these things, their own character and then ability and power in the way of gift. The perfection works out in the spirit of the man, the way he behaves himself and how he commends himself to the brethren, and how he commends the truth to the brethren.

A.B.P. Would that be seen in the way that the brethren in Acts 20 sorrowed most of all that they would not see Paul's face again? The servant himself had become endeared because of what he was.

J.T. Quite so, they felt it that they would not see his face again; very touching.

N.J. Would Stephen illustrate the matter as being full of grace and the Holy Spirit whilst labouring at a comparatively small service? But he purchased to himself a good degree.

J.T. Just so, he did not have a long ministry but it was a very fresh and powerful ministry so far as it went.

N.J. The carrying out in the power of the Holy Spirit of a small service would perhaps enable the Spirit to take on a person for a larger service.

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J.T. Just so. As we were saying, if the Urim and Thummim imply light and perfection, then the light would be in the power of the gift, but perfection is the spirit of the man, the character of the man himself, how he commends himself, and commends the truth too, to the brethren.

A.B.P. Is that same principle seen in the candlestick? It sheds light but the light also discloses the perfection of the candlestick?

J.T. Very good.

N.J. Is the same thought suggested in what Paul says in Romans 1, that he had "received grace and apostleship", Romans 1:5 that dignity was granted to him?

J.T. The kind of man he was, quite so. We all recall what has been related by others of the character of Mr. Darby; the peculiar character of a man is sometimes more interesting than the light he gives.

S. W. Referring to verse 8 of our chapter, we know that in days of declension, and of revival too, the book of the law of Moses was brought to bear upon the people. Would you say what the book of the law would suggest?

J.T. Oh, the book of the law stands; it is inspired. The book of the law is Scripture; it is inspired. The Scriptures stand from the very beginning, from Genesis right down; they have authority. But in regard to light and perfection, the perfection would largely refer to the kind of man who had the gift, the kind of man.

R.W.S. How do you view the ministry of Joshua as over against the ministry of Moses?

J.T. Well, you can see that in the mind of God Moses had the precedence; there was no one like Moses; we have in the book of Numbers that there was nobody like him, the meekest man in all the earth. Remarkable, that! We cannot say that we have seen a man like that, the meekest man in all

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the earth; it was Jehovah's own characterising of him. But Joshua did not have that.

R.W.S. Is there something today in the ministry of the Holy Spirit which would correspond to the inwardness of the ministry of Joshua? I thought there is a correspondence in its inward and refined character as based on the authority of Moses.

J.T. That is good.

W.W.M. Joshua must have been a young man when he went into the land and came back with a good report. Would he represent what is in the land; he is connected with that side?

J.T. It was what was in his heart, he spoke according to what was in his heart and he was right.

Ques. Is not the supremacy of Moses in one sense seen in Exodus 33:11? It says, "And Jehovah spoke with Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend ... but his attendant, Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, departed not from within the tent", Exodus 33:11. Is not that a greater matter than God speaking to Joshua here?

J.T. Wonderful! I believe it is to encourage people to excel. Why should we not excel? If others have excelled, why should not we? It is to encourage to excellence, to more excellent service.

Ques. Is not great power seen in Joshua in chapter 10? It says in verse 12, "Then spoke Joshua to Jehovah in the day when Jehovah gave up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand still upon Gibeon; and thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon! And the sun stood still, and the moon remained where it was, until the nation had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? And the sun remained standing in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a full day", Joshua 10:12,13.

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J.T. That is one of the most wonderful things that ever happened! No day like it! So the book of Jasher is a book to be read, if we can find it; it is the perfection of the book.

A.Macd. And would chapter 4:14 further bear that out? It says, "On that day Jehovah magnified Joshua in the sight of all Israel; and they feared him, as they had feared Moses, all the days of his life", Joshua 4:14.

J.T. That shows his acquirement, what is due to himself. He developed in light and perfection.

Ques. Should not each gift that God raises up, although maintaining what has gone before, have his own peculiar distinctiveness in the ministry?

J.T. Yes; indeed there was not another like Joshua. I do not think he was just like Moses, he had his own distinction. God loves distinction, He loves variety. The stars represent that, "Star differs from star in glory"; 1 Corinthians 15:41 that is, God likes diversity. The stars are innumerable, they cannot be counted, but it shows what God has, like the worlds; we do not know how many there are, but He made them, He made them by Christ.

A.H. You have referred to the stars as suggesting the ruling element. Does this matter of distinction and glory in the minister have in mind that his word is to carry authority amongst the saints?

J.T. Quite so; and so think of the number of ministers we have had, the number that God has given to us. How many there are that we can recall whom God has given to us to carry on the ministry! And they are still coming, young ones are coming up whom God is using to carry on the ministry; and we would support them in every way and encourage them.

C.F.E. Was Joshua peculiarly a military leader?

J.T. That is just what he was, he was a warrior

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to bring the people into the land. It meant war and he was a great warrior like David.

S.W. Where does Joshua stand as to spirituality as compared with the other patriarchs?

J.T. Well, the word 'patriarch' is, of course, quite extensive; in fact Abraham and Moses and others were patriarchs. They are called the fathers, the word 'patriarch' refers to fathers. Moses and Joshua were both distinctly spiritual men; so was Paul and so was Peter, all the apostles were spiritual.

S.W. My reason for asking is because it is surely only a spiritual person who can lead us into the land.

J.T. That is right. So with the Urim and Thummim, the light was there in the power of the gift, but the perfection is seen in the character of the gift, what the man is like, how he behaves himself, and in particular, amongst the brethren.

A.P. It says here in verse 10, "And Joshua commanded the officers of the people, saying, Go through the midst of the camp, and command the people, saying, Prepare yourselves victuals, for in three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, that ye may enter in to take possession of the land which Jehovah your God giveth you to possess it". What is meant by this preparation of food?

J.T. They were to be warriors, fighters, and they needed food to fight. We all know that, in war it is important to have plenty of food for the soldiers. And another thing to notice is that the entrance into Canaan was not from the west, it was from the east. They entered and crossed the Jordan from the east, not from the west; the west is on the Mediterranean. The entrance of the Israelites was a military matter, they had to fight for the land. They were great warriors and had to fight for the inheritance, and so it is that Joshua and David were warriors.

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A.P. What is your point in that they approached the land from the east?

J.T. The land was comparatively small, it was not a very large place like India and China and such countries; they are very spacious but Canaan was not that; the people had to go over Jordan into Canaan from the east. Though it was a very small place that God was giving them, it was a precious place, a land of waterbrooks and springs as Deuteronomy 8 tells us. That is why they had to go across the Jordan, they had to go through death to get to it. And so it is with us, we have to go through death to get to the truth of the assembly and the enjoyment that is in it.

J.H.E. The sun-rising was there, also, was it not?

J.T. That is the idea, the sun was shining on them all the time.

J.H.E. After Jacob wrestled and he became Israel the sun rose upon him. He was no longer Jacob, but Israel, he was a prince.

J.T. Yes, he was a prince, he was ennobled.

Rem. After the brazen serpent was introduced, it says the children of Israel journeyed toward the sun-rising; and then it was that they were able to sing to the well.

J.T. And then they had to cross the Jordan to get into the land. The physical position is there yet, but it is just a bare stretch of land. But they were going into a small but precious territory and it was called Canaan.

Rem. In verse 12 Joshua spoke to the Reubenites and to the Gadites and to half the tribe of Manasseh and commanded them saying, "Jehovah your God has given you rest and has given you this land".

J.T. Their territory was not Canaan; Canaan was a greater territory. So it is now that heaven is our territory; we are going to heaven. The brethren

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around us, the Presbyterians and Methodists and such, are not in the good of that territory, they do not know it at all; they do not understand it, whereas the Spirit of God has come in and helped the brethren as to the thought of Canaan, the heavenly land to which we are going. Many of Mr. Darby's hymns are full of the idea of Canaan.

A.H. Does it require a meat diet in contrast to the manna?

J.T. Quite so, strong meat, that is the idea; if they had to fight they needed strong meat.

A.E.W. Do we not require the presence of Jehovah for this matter? Before they enter in God tells Joshua twice that He will be with him. Is not that important if we are to go into the land?

J.T. Just so, that is very beautiful, and I think the brethren are coming to that. They are coming to the great importance of attending the assembly meetings because of what we get when we are together as we are now, the Spirit of God operating amongst us.

F.H.L. I think you have linked up Joshua with Colossians, have you not? And under Joshua would they not become sound Colossian saints?

J.T. Very good; and Ephesians is the heavenly land. We are raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ; that is the full thought. Ephesians is the full thought of God for us.

Ques. Would the victuals here be like the food of John 6 in view of entering into life?

J.T. That is right, that is what I would say.

G.H. Would that be the territory as mentioned in Ephesians, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ"? Ephesians 1:3.

J.T. It is every spiritual blessing; and in the

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heavenlies, not on earth. The Jews will have the earthly side presently, they will be brought into their own land; but we go into the heavenlies for our part.

E.A.L. The Red Sea was crossed from the west to the east, but as you have been pointing out the Jordan was crossed from east to west. The testimony has moved westward ever since, and we are in the benefit of that position now.

J.T. That is good; I believe that especially since the revival of the truth we have had the thought of Canaan. And so the ministry for the last one hundred and fifty years has taken on much about the assembly and assembly service, what we have on the first day of the week.

W.W.M. We need the passover as food to leave the world, but we need the victuals spoken of here for entering the land?

J.T. Just so; the food for the land is unique.

A.R. The children of Israel left Egypt householdly, and they crossed the Red Sea householdly; whereas crossing the Jordan seems to be a tribal matter.

J.T. That is right, it is the collective idea. But the two and a half tribes remained on the other side of Jordan; they really missed the best thing that there was, namely Canaan. Joshua provided that the men should go and take part in the war and then return to the land that had been given them. They had to go into Canaan, but when they returned home they returned to the other side of Jordan, that is, they had to cross the Jordan again.

A.R. That would confirm what you were saying as to the place the assembly has in the minds of the Saints today.

A.B.P. Would you say that Barzillai the Gileadite would be a product of this area?

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J.T. That is good; he would not go to Jerusalem, he did not want to go. That is to say, he was not equal to David's proposal; David would have brought him into Jerusalem.

Ques. Is Joshua to be commended for the way he maintains unity here? He did not leave the two and a half tribes behind.

J.T. The two and a half tribes had their allotment given to them on the east side of the Jordan. That was the territory given to them by Moses, not by Joshua. It was not equal to the land of Canaan. Canaan is on the west side of Jordan, and it is what God had in His mind for Israel. That narrow strip of land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea was what He had in His mind for His people.

A.R. Must we have a complete idea to get into Canaan?

J.T. That is right, a complete idea. It is the land that God had spied out for His people. He loved His people. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal", John 3:16. That is Canaan. Notice the word 'have', it is a great thought, "have life eternal". The love of God enters into that: God loved men and therefore He gave them Canaan, He gave them eternal life.

Rem. Joshua was in danger of being stoned because of it according to Numbers 14.

A.N.W. It was evidently the matter of going into Canaan that made the split in the tribe of Manasseh, part going into the land and part remaining on the other side.

A.H. Have you in mind that this official ministry and the authoritative word really come from God to get us out of the plains of Moab and into the inheritance?

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J.T. Into the place that God has designed for us. He marked it out, He espied Canaan as from a distance; we might illustrate it by a person in an aeroplane, you can see things from a distance.

D.P. Was there more power displayed in the Jordan than at the Red Sea?

J.T. I think it was more concentrated; at the Red Sea it was more extended. The Jordan is more concentrated, it is a river; a sea is not like a river, there is no current, the power is in the: current. There was a current in the Jordan, the Jordan therefore is a type of death. There is power in it.

A.R. Does eternal life belong to the land?

J.T. That is right; eternal life is in the land. So in John 3:16, "God so loved ..." John 3:16; it is the order that is in the world that He loved.

N.J. In verse 2 it says, "Rise up, go over this Jordan, thou and all this people"; every one of them was to go.

J.T. Quite so; and it is this Jordan, the one right before you, you have to go through it.

Rem. When Joshua went into the Jordan he took twelve stones with him. He had all the saints in his mind.

J.T. And he took other twelve out of the Jordan into the land.

Ques. Is that the idea in the Lord's supper in the loaf, that we seek to hold the whole position for all?

J.T. Yes, I think so, the whole idea. We can never allow the idea of a 'remnant' to apply to the assembly; the whole idea must be there.

A.R. Those twelve stones had no past public history.

J.T. Just so. And now we should just touch on the remainder of the chapter: "And Joshua commanded the officers of the people, saying, Go through the midst of the camp, and command the people, saying, Prepare yourselves victuals, for in three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, that ye may enter in to take possession of the land which Jehovah your God giveth you to possess it. And to the Reubenites and to the Gadites and to half the tribe of Manasseh spoke Joshua, saying, Remember the word that Moses the servant of Jehovah commanded you, saying, Jehovah your God has given you rest and has given you this land. Your wives, your little ones and your cattle shall abide in the land that Moses gave you on this side of the Jordan, but ye, all the valiant men, shall go over in array before your brethren and help them, until Jehovah give your brethren rest as to you, and they also take possession of the land which Jehovah your God giveth them; then shall ye return into the land of your possession and possess it, which Moses the servant of Jehovah gave you on this side of the Jordan toward the sun-rising" (verses 10 - 15).

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Attention should be called to the two and half tribes; their territory was given them by Moses, not by Joshua. The men went over to fight with their brethren, so that the whole of the tribes of Israel were in the battle together. And then in verse 16, "They answered Joshua, saying, All that thou has commanded us will we do". They are thoroughly with the truth although they are not wishing to go into Canaan; a very humbling thing that people do not want to go into Canaan, they would rather live in their family and business surroundings in the wilderness.

A.H. The part of their families that stayed behind would have missed Gilgal.

J.T. Quite so.

A.B.P. These brethren would hardly understand the ministry that we are having as to the sisters having such a full part in the things of God.

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MAN (14)

1 Kings 1:1 - 53

J.T. It is thought that this chapter should be looked at now and the second chapter this evening. We might note too that this being Election Day, man in the political sense will be before the people; so that it should be opportune for us to consider the idea of man as he is according to God, and man according to God is Christ! "The man Christ Jesus" is the word: "One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. This is a long chapter but it is one whole subject, a question of kingship, man in the place of rule; and that man, according to God, is Christ. Many men have ruled, there have been great leaders in the world, the Caesars and others; but we must come to it that the only real Man according to God is Christ; and then of course those who are His. And so we are enjoined to be men, "Quit yourselves like men; be strong", 1 Corinthians 16:13 so we do well to follow the matter up. Another thing to be added is that the word 'man' covers woman as well as man: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion"; Genesis 1:26 the 'them' includes the sisters as well as the brothers, So that the idea of dominion should be native to us, we should all learn to be men in the sense of being according to Christ, godly men as in Christ who is the "one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5.

A.B.P. Had David seen some of the features in Solomon that he had learned should be in the one who rules amongst men? He says, in his last words, "The God of Israel said, The Rock of Israel spoke to me, the ruler among men shall be just, ruling in the fear of God", 2 Samuel 23:3.

J.T. And he was asserting what he was himself as constituted to rule; and of course in reality that

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Man is Christ. It is remarkable how often David is mentioned in the New Testament, in the Acts and in the book of Revelation too. So clearly the thought should be with us on this particular day, this Election Day, as to our Man. Who is our choice? It is not that we would say a word against the government, but we want to think of our Man, and who is He? It is "the man Christ Jesus", 1 Timothy 2:5. We do not want to say anything that would discredit the government or the members of it because we are thankful for them; "The authorities ... are set up by God", Romans 13:1 it says; they are ordained of God and we should recognise that.

A.N.W. Does the Spirit help us to see the pronounced opposite in Adonijah who exalted himself? He "exalted himself, saying, I will be king". Our glorious Man humbled Himself and was exalted by God!

J.T. And so it is that David said to Solomon in chapter 2, "Be a man", 2 Kings 2:2. David said that to him.

F.H.L. Should we look at the type as completed in David and Solomon together?

J.T. I suppose that is really what is in mind; the idea should be followed up in both men, first in David and then in Solomon. And of course when the time comes, please God, we shall find that the New Testament brings out how kingship shines in Christ; because Christ is foreshadowed in these types, first in the book of Genesis where the idea of man begins: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26; and as we have said before, the woman is included in the word 'man',

F.J.F. Is that why in the ordinary affairs the queen has a great place with the king? Is the thought there that woman is necessary to fill out the thought of kingship?

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J.T. I do not know that there has ever been a queen held in greater honour according to men than Queen Victoria, and she was truly a queen, ruling the country. Her husband had not the distinction of being king but he was her husband. Queen Victoria, I think, represents the idea of queenship as we might get it among men; her reign was, I believe, ordered of God and the country prospered under her. I am speaking now of what God has raised up; and I might add that I believe President Roosevelt, whom God greatly honoured in this country, was used too in the same sense; he helped forward the things of God. We are not here to say much as to the rulers, but only to point out what God is pleased to bring out and effect for His people, that His people might be in peace and that the truth might continue to have free course. And so with David, who is before us, his name is mentioned remarkably often in the New Testament. Revelation speaks of the root of David and it is the Lord Jesus who is mentioned in that connection; the Lord Jesus is spoken of thus.

C.A.M. Speaking of the feminine side, would it be right to look at Abishag as referring to the way the saints have been strengthened to apprehend the assembly, so that it has made room for a right apprehension of manhood according to Christ?

J.T. And of course the truth of the assembly in a certain sense has to be regarded as feminine, the word 'assembly' must be regarded as feminine when we consider it as Christ's body.

R.W.S. Just how do you view Abishag?

J.T. Oh, I do not know that there is much to say beyond what is said of her at the outset of the chapter; she is a suitable person to nourish David the king in his old age. She is regarded as a suitable person to do that, her character is clearly intimated, in that sense.

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R.W.S. Our brother mentioned her name in connection with the assembly, and I too wondered if there was some veiled thought of the assembly here in her personally.

J.T. Well, I suppose that might be said, but you would have to put it into it I would think. She is just as described, nothing more than that so far as I can see. It is a question of David and Solomon, of the house of David, the man that ruled as we have already said "in the fear of God".

A.N.W. Am I right in thinking that there is some involvement of the assembly in Revelation 12 where it says, "She brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne"? Revelation 12:5. Does that involve the assembly with Christ in the being caught up?

F.J.F. I think Mr. Darby regarded that scripture in that way. "And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bring forth, in order that when she brought forth he might devour her child. And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne", Revelation 12:4,5.

A.N.W. What has helped me about it, is that the child is "caught up". I do not think that there is any suggestion in the Scriptures exactly of Jesus personally having been caught up, but that word does apply to the assembly. I thought that suggests that there might be something more involved -- it might include the woman -- the assembly. While it is an emphatic "male son", yet the expression as to catching up is applied to the feminine side actually in the assembly, and never to Christ.

J.T. You would have to press the thing a little to see that I am afraid, because the word 'male' emphasises the idea of the masculine and we have to

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make way for all that in the book of Revelation. The assembly must make room for it, but the female side comes in in chapter 21. You get the twelve in chapter 21.

E.A.L. There seems to be double emphasis on the masculine, it is a "male son".

J.T. Just so; we must make room for the masculine side so as to get the authority and the order that is so needed in the book of Revelation. But in chapter 21 we have the idea of twelve enlarged upon, which brings out the administrative side. It says, "The holy city, Jerusalem ... having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels", Revelation 21:12. And then later, "The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb", Revelation 21:14. That is not the assembly in relation to Paul, it is the apostolic assembly; the work of the twelve is in mind in that chapter; it is the assembly in relation to the twelve. That should be held in our minds to follow up the truth; not that we want to go too much into the New Testament at this time, but just to link on the truth.

S.W. Would you differentiate between the truth of the assembly as developed by Paul and the apostolic assembly?

J.T. The Pauline truth as to the assembly was reserved for the filling out or the completing of the word of God. It came in after the initial ministry of the twelve. The assembly in relation to the twelve was a primary thought; "He sat down with the twelve", Matthew 26:14 it says. Judas of course failed them but the Lord kept in mind that He had the twelve. Paul and Barnabas were apostles, too. So that the idea of apostleship is held in the mind but the twelve apostles of the Lamb are referred to in Revelation.

E.E.H. Does the number twelve emphasise that idea?

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J.T. That is what I thought exactly; the number twelve is the idea, and in Revelation 21 particularly.

J.T.Jr. He appeared to the twelve according to 1 Corinthians 15.

J.T. Yes, to the twelve, and then to above five hundred brethren; but then Paul says He appeared to him also as to an abortion.

A.R. Do you get the idea of authority emphasized in Nathan the prophet? He instructs Bathsheba to go to David.

J.T. Well, I think we get the idea of personality in the prophet; Nathan is a peculiar personality, the meaning of his name is 'gift', I believe.

R.W.S. There is a transitional period in this chapter. Is there some parallel with our own times, as to whether we are prepared to be definite in committal to the right kind of manhood? It seems a difficult time in this chapter, a transitional time with Adonijah seeking the throne and others seeking their own. Is it not a challenge as to our committal to this kind of man we are considering and whether we will definitely come over on the side of the kingship of Christ?

J.T. I think we have to consider our subject from that point of view, as to what man is in the place of rule. We have the two leaders of the tribe in that sense, David and Solomon, the two great kings in the same family in the place of rule. We have to see how that is to be worked out in our assembly relations, I would say.

V.C.L. So that there is emphasis added to the importance of manhood in the reserves which God has when His man is attacked.

J.T. I think that is a great matter, negatively, that during the past one hundred years the idea of kingship has greatly lost its power in the world; even in the British system kingship has lost its power. So that we come down to what we may call

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radicalism. Radicalism has, to a great degree, displaced kingship. Kingship in Great Britain has been stripped of much of its power, which now is vested in the prime minister; the king has little power so far as that goes, except that it is the policy of the British system to retain the idea. But God is retaining the idea, and He is retaining it amongst the brethren; and we want to maintain kingship, to quit ourselves like men and be strong.

J.T.Jr. The radical idea should have no place amongst us; it is current politically but we are to judge it.

F.J.F. Is not our King supreme, as out of death and crowned with glory and honour?

J.T. What is the word as to honouring the king as supreme? "Be in subjection ... whether to the king as supreme, or to rulers as sent by him", 1 Peter 2:13,14. We are to honour the idea, even if it is among ourselves; we are to honour real manhood.

Ques. Is that what is meant at the end of 1 Timothy, "King of those that reign"? 1 Timothy 6:15.

J.T. Just so, there it is; the Spirit of God carries it through.

A.B.P. Should we keep in mind the word in Matthew that Jesus was born King, "the king of the Jews that has been born"? Matthew 2:2.

J.T. Yes; the wise men sought "the king ... that has been born".

A.N.W. Government of the people, by the people and for the people fits the present day, but it is not in the Scripture.

J.T. Quite so, that was mentioned in Lincoln's speech at Gettysburg; well, we must honour Lincoln as a man; I certainly do, because God honoured him. But he was put to death, even that we must not forget, keeping in mind that kings and presidents are to be prayed for that they might not be assassinated.

Ques. Reference has been made to keeping in

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mind the dual thought of David and Solomon. What are the principal differences between them?

J.T. Well, David is the principal idea as regards kingship, he is the beginning of it. Solomon followed that out, but he was a real man too and David made a point of it that he should be a man. And that is the thing to keep before us if we are real christians, to be men after Christ.

Rem. The principle comes into this chapter that rule is on the basis, not of election, but of sovereign selection.

E.A.L. That is shown in the end of 1 Chronicles where it says, "And Solomon sat on the throne of Jehovah as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him", 1 Chronicles 29:23. Solomon was sitting on the throne of Jehovah while David was still alive. That is sovereign selection.

F.J.F. Are we not going to sit on the throne with the Lord, and are we not prepared for that now?

J.T. That is the idea I think; manhood is the thought that is to be carried through: "Quit yourselves like men, be strong", 1 Corinthians 16:13.

V.C.L. The prophet moves in quickly when there is an attack made upon Solomon, the man of God's choice, of whom it had been said, "Jehovah loved him". Should not that readiness to preserve manhood according to God be found with us?

J.T. It is a very remarkable thing that Solomon is made so much of in that sense; "Jehovah loved him", it says; very remarkable!

Ques. Have we in one sense even now come in the assembly to Solomon's reign? David was a valiant man and a man of war, but now we might say we have come to the time of Solomon where peace is enjoyed in the assembly under the influence of the Spirit.

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J.T. Very good; I think the Lord is greatly helping us in that very point. These meetings on manhood ought to help us, and I think they do.

F.H.L. It would seem as if a test came in as to how things are to be kept alive, but God has His reserve man. Solomon is there. We must recognize that what God has before Him will go through in its power and glory, will it not?

J.T. And what encourages us to think that it shall go through is the way the Spirit of God is given a place, and where the Spirit has a place He makes much of Christ, the 'Man'. It is the 'Man' that is in mind, "the man Christ Jesus". That could not be said of the Spirit but it is said of Christ. We want to cultivate the idea of manhood in Christ.

J.H.E. The Lord said, "He shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you", John 16:14. He ever presents Christ to us, the perfect Man.

F.J.F. Do you think that after we have remembered the Lord in the breaking of bread we look to the Lord Jesus as our great Solomon? It says, "A greater than Solomon is here", Matthew 12:42.

J.T. And then He makes much of God the Father; that is what comes out at the Lord's supper. The Father comes into evidence in due course and the Lord sees to that; He sees that the Father is brought in. That is a great matter.

S.W. Does sonship shine out in Solomon in relation to manhood? This chapter speaks much of Solomon as David's son. And I wondered if, as we are enabled to reach the thought of sonship, manhood shines out in us, so that we can enter into the service of God?

J.T. Very good; I will tell you what comes to me. If we think of our sisters, the Lord is giving them a unique place amongst us and we are coming to see it more than ever but one thing that is perhaps

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not taken into account is that they are all sons; every sister is a son, a very remarkable thing.

F.J.F. Why must they be silent in the assembly?

J.T. It is a question of the wisdom of God, it is the wisdom of God to say, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 14:34.

F.J.F. But why have they to be silent? I was wondering whether it is that God always maintains His government while we are here on earth? I was thinking of the fall, the woman sinned; Paul tells us that she "was in transgression", 1 Timothy 2:14. Is it that God's government is maintained while we are here?

J.T. I should think so; and it is a matter that causes discipline, it brings out the usefulness of discipline.

E.E.H. Is headship the idea? "The head of every man is Christ", 1 Corinthians 11:3.

J.T. Just so, it makes way for headship. It does not say that every man is a christian, but that Christ is the head of every man. It is a wonderful remark.

A.B.P. With reference to the fall and woman's place as a result, is not the point that the woman was deceived made in 1 Timothy 2? It says, "The woman, having been deceived, was in transgression" 1 Timothy 2:14.

J.T. She was in transgression. It is a very humbling thing that she has to bear that in her mind throughout the history of humanity. Yet she was remarkably honoured in that she was made, not out of clay, but out of a rib taken out of Adam; she was more honoured than Adam in that sense, because Adam was made of clay.

A.B.P. Is it right to say that the woman sinned as being deceived while Adam sinned knowing what he was doing?

J.T. Well, quite so. The onus is put on the fact that it was the woman that was in transgression, and it runs down through the history of humanity. The

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cure of it all is what is in Christ. We are to be like Him, and we shall be like Him, for "we shall see him as he is" 1 John 3:2. That is where we get true manhood.

J.T.Jr. I suppose in the assembly the sisters can in their spirits be in the sense of sonship, in the meetings; but they must wait actually for the change, that is the body of glory, before they can actually function as the men do now. Would that be right?

J.T. Well, the only thing to be said is that they come into the place of manhood in Christ. "We shall see him as he is" 1 John 3:2: because of that we shall be like him. So that the sisters come into manhood in that sense because they are sons; they are sons; "Now are we the sons of God", 1 John 3:2 it says. And then the Spirit is given to sisters as well as to brothers, and sonship lies in the Spirit, in having the Spirit of God.

A.N.W. They already have sonship feelings.

J.T. They ought to, and no doubt they do have sonship feelings; it is what we all come into as sons of God. We are sons of God and the sisters are included in that and the Spirit of God is in them as He is in the brothers; and therefore they have the consciousness of sonship.

A.R. It says that God has "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies", Ephesians 2:6. They must be included in that also.

J.T. Just so; He has "raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus" Ephesians 2:6; that is the dignity of it.

A.R. The sisters must work out the truth in their own minds.

C.A.M. Is it not an evidence that they are in the good and spirit of sonship inasmuch as they write hymns, and they can sing in the Spirit. There are hymns in our book by the sisters.

J.T. Quite so, some of the best, and we expect more. We understand that quite a number have

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been made available for the hymn-book revision. It will be a question of how they come up to the mark.

A.A.T. Sisters are to be silent in the assembly, but are there not occasions when the sisters are present with the brothers when they are not required to be silent, such as a baptism meeting? That is a household setting.

J.T. Well, quite so, I go with that.

W.W.M. Is it not very important to see how this matter is explained? It says in 1 Timothy 2, "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness; for Adam was formed first, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression"; 1 Timothy 2:12 - 14 showing that the man was placed in authority, and that should be maintained and recognised by the woman.

J.T. That is what we have been saying. We must observe what Scripture says, for the women are to learn in silence, but they are to learn nevertheless. Then again the superiority of the masculine to the feminine is also to be pointed out; it is largely in Paul's writings, almost entirely. He is used of God to bring out this feature of distinction between men and women. At the same time the Spirit of God is helping us to bring out the truth of the assembly; that that is the thing to get before us; not simply the actuality of men and women, but to get the thing worked out in the assembly. The Spirit of God is here to work things out for us in the assembly; that is the thing that God is honouring, it is the great thought. It has hardly been recognized for years, for hundreds of years, but God has brought it to light in the revival and is stressing it now; and that the men are to be distinguished in the services.

Ques. Would you say more about sisters taking part at baptisms? There seems to be a little difficulty

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over the difference between the household setting and the position as gathered together in assembly.

J.T. That has just been referred to, but there might be some need for the sisters to speak in a wider setting; we might have to question a sister if things are not right with her and she would have to speak in answer. We had a case like that in New York with two sisters, and they were very naughty. Nevertheless we may have to ask questions of sisters and they ought to answer them.

A.N.W. That was on the occasion of an assembly meeting.

A.A.T. What I had in my mind in asking the question was the household setting connected with baptisms or other occasions. Should a sister not be free to ask a question in that setting if she wanted to?

J.T. Certainly.

R.W.S. When it says, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies", 1 Corinthians 13:44 do I understand you to include what we call the care meeting as one of the meetings in which women are to be silent?

J.T. I would not say that; I should be glad to hear a sister say something if spoken in a comely way, a lowly way; if she had any information to give, why not? I would not hesitate to say yes.

A.P. Would the daughters of Zelophehad confirm that in Numbers 27?

J.T. Yes, quite; read it please.

A.P. "Then drew near the daughters of Zelophehad ... saying, Our father died in the wilderness, and he was not in the band of them that banded themselves together against Jehovah in the band of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons. Why should the name of our father be taken away from his family, because he has no son? Give unto us a possession among the brethren of our father. And Moses brought their cause before Jehovah", Numbers 27:1 - 5.

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J.T. The word is, "The daughters of Zelophehad speak right" Numbers 27:7, that is the thing to keep in mind; they spoke right.

Ques. Does Matthew 18 give the sisters scope to speak in the care meeting for instance? May a sister be a witness as in that chapter: "But if he do not hear thee, take with thee one or two besides, that every matter may stand upon the word of two witnesses or of three", Matthew 18:16.

J.T. Sisters could give the witness; certainly I would say that, if it is done in a humble lowly way.

D.Macd. In regard to the household setting, Acts 12 might help. When Peter came out of prison he came to the house of Mary where many were gathered together and praying; and it was Rhoda that reported that Peter had returned. There is a sister speaking in the household setting.

J.T. Quite so; that very chapter has been used in relation to a certain matter that has happened among us, that if a sister has something needful for the carrying out of the discipline and order of the assembly, there is no reason why she should not say it; why she should not speak.

F.H.L. That is not an assembly meeting in the light of 1 Corinthians 14 where it says it is a shame for a sister to speak in the assembly?

J.T. That is quite right; there are other circumstances in which they can speak, as we have said, but I think that what you point out is quite right.

S.W. Would you say that if sisters had occasion to speak at a care meeting, it would be a matter of intelligence and seemliness?

J.T. Seemliness is what should mark the thing.

J.H.E. When it says that it is a shame for a woman to speak in the assembly, does not the context show that it is when we come together in

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assembly for ministry? There a woman would take her place in silence.

J.T. She would take her place, whatever is needed, in a seemly way; that is the idea. I think that is the thing that is to be emphasized particularly, that in the place the woman has to take in the service of God she should be seemly about it.

G.P. What about Luke 2 where Anna spoke?

J.T. Read the passage please, for that is one of the things that God is helping in, to give attention to Scripture that it may be spoken accurately.

G.P. "And there was a prophetess, Anna, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was far advanced in years, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity, and herself a widow up to eighty-four years; who did not depart from the temple, serving night and day with fastings and prayers; and she coming up the same hour gave praise to the Lord, and spoke of him to all those who waited for redemption in Jerusalem", Luke 2:36 - 38.

J.T. That is wonderful! It clearly establishes what we are saying as to what sisters may do or say and be seemly in what they are doing or saying.

R.F.D. Now that all are attending the care meetings, will it still be proper to announce a week in advance the names of any seeking their place as is now the custom?

J.T. Well, that has often come up and we have nothing to say against it. It is only a question of time and there cannot be anything lost in waiting. God uses it, it is needful to establish the truth.

Ques. Where do sisters prophesy?

J.T. Well, that is another thing we have in the balance; some of us are not sure where it should be; but clearly there is the suggestion that sisters should speak and prophesy. God will bring it out in time, we shall have to wait.

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E.A.L. There is considerable enquiry about this matter. In Acts 2 Peter quotes from Joel, "And your daughters shall prophesy", Acts 2:17. Would the fact that this scripture is brought forward into the New Testament, mean that the sisters must now take on characteristically this idea of prophesying?

J.T. And that would promote modesty and humility.

J.T.Jr. The chapter just alluded to in Luke includes Mary and Elizabeth as well as Anna.

J.T. Quite so, very good.

W.J.S. It would not be permitted in all meetings for a woman to speak, would it? Verses 34 and 35 of 1 Corinthians 14 refer to the woman keeping silence and that it is a shame for a woman to speak in the assembly. Would that be confined to meetings of an assembly character, and in that way give room for sisters to speak only in meetings that are not of an assembly character?

J.T. Clearly they are not to speak in assembly, but then there are other meetings, as has been indicated, in which they can be free to speak.

W.J.S. You would not expect a sister to take part in a prayer meeting, would you?

J.T. No, I should not be free for that. There is much to be clarified, and we are waiting on the Lord for the clarification, because I think the Lord is ready to give things out that we have not had earlier. It is a question of being patient so that they may come out with authority.

R.W.S. If that Scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 were taken too literally the sisters would not be able to say, Amen. Does it not bear upon ministry in the assembly? You would hardly expect a sister to give a word in the meeting.

J.T. It would not be in accord with the general spirit of ministry.

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F.H.L. The scripture in 1 Corinthians 14 seems to be linked with the thought of asking questions, does it not? If there is to be the learning, let them ask at home.

J.T. Just so, ask at home. There is so much to be learned, and it is a time I believe to be patient so that we may learn; because God is very liberal in what He is ready to give out. It is a matter of being patient.

E.A.L. Then too, we do not want to shut out the sisters who have no husbands from asking so we have to see just what is meant by the passage.

J.T. Speaking in ordinary language, as one might say, we can read between the lines and see there are many things left that are not definitely spoken; but we ought to be intelligent enough to see what is between the lines as it were. There is much like that in all known writings, but especially in the Scriptures.

V.C.L. Does not Paul write of what is characteristically seemly in assembly order as helped by the power of the Spirit?

J.T. Very good.

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MAN (15)

1 Kings 2:1 - 46

J.T. We scarcely touched on chapter 1 of this book at our reading this afternoon so that one would appeal to the brethren to read it again at home, and ask questions at home too, if necessary; as it says, "The Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7. It is to be noted that the chapter before us refers to adjustment of what is unfolded in the first chapter; as is often the case, there is need to go over things in the sense of adjustment, getting the facts well narrated and listed. So that the death of David is mentioned briefly and then Solomon comes forward to do his part; it is his time. Our subject of Man, therefore, is rightly seen in David and Solomon, that is to say in persons who have the place of rule among the people of God.

A.B.P. In a previous reading we referred to Joshua, and we had a transition, as we have here. There it was from Moses to Joshua and I think you emphasised the point as to the man in whom was the Spirit of God. What particular feature of manhood is it here? Is it kingship?

J.T. Kingship, that is what I would say; "Long live king Solomon" 1 Kings 1:39 is the word. The chapter refers to all that is necessary to place the Lord in the position of serving His people here.

F.J.F. From the Lord's exalted position?

J.T. Just so; so it is said in Luke that He was received up in glory.

A.R. Would that be confirmed in verse 12 of our chapter, "And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father"?

J.T. So that all that is said of Solomon here is to stress that he was the king.

A.R. The Lord at the present time is on His Father's throne, is He not?

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J.T. Yes, the Lord makes much of that line of thought; He said, "My Father is greater than I", John 14:28. They are equal: the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are equal. However, the Lord was speaking of Himself as having become Man.

A.B.P. He says, "As I also have overcome, and have sat down with my Father in his throne", Revelation 3:21. That stresses His manhood, does it not?

J.T. Just so. So that when He was here, it was a question of manhood in responsibility, so to speak. He took that place down here; He went into every circumstance, He omitted nothing of all that was suitable in the position that He had taken.

A.N.W. The Lord wondered at what the centurion saw in Him. He had said, "I also am a man under authority", Matthew 8:9. And Solomon seems to be acting in this chapter under the charges committed to him.

Ques. Does the word in John 5 apply? The Lord says, "For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is Son of man" John 5:26. And earlier in the same chapter it says that the Father judges no one but "has given all judgment to the Son", John 5:22.

Is there correspondence between those verses and this chapter?

J.T. Very much, and these are statements that are very remarkable for us to feed upon; because we have in the Scriptures not only what is said in the way of doctrine, but things that we may feed upon. Feeding is a great matter in the divine account; we need to be fed.

F.J.F. Is the spirit of kingship seen in us in standing for the Lord's rights when He is absent, that He is Lord of all and that we seek to maintain what is due to Him? And is that connected with the Supper, "till he come"? 1 Corinthians 11:26.

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J.T. Yes, quite. How many things of that kind we get in the Scriptures! And we are to feed on them; the Lord sets the thing before us and we are to follow what He says and make it food.

F.H.L. Will there be Solomonic conditions in the millennium when true manhood will be seen shining out? Here the conflict is largely over and Solomon is reigning in conditions of peace. Will not the Lord shine in that character and reign?

J.T. Yes; David asserts that Solomon is a wise man. David took the ground that Solomon was a wise man and that he had the qualities to enable him to do things rightly.

J.T.Jr. He was not like the Corinthians; Paul has to say to them, "There is not a wise person among you", 1 Corinthians 6:5. The Corinthians had reached the wrong kind of kingship, for in chapter 4 Paul says, "Ye have reigned without us", 1 Corinthians 4:8. But do you not think that in the end they came to see where real authority was, and dealt with things accordingly?

J.T. Oh, I think so; the second epistle really clarifies what may not have been clear in the first epistle.

F.N.W. In that same chapter, 1 Corinthians 6 it says, "Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by you, are ye unworthy of the smallest judgements?", 1 Corinthians 6:2. Is the Lord teaching us in the small matters in the local companies the principles of judgment that will operate in the day to come?

J.T. "Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight" Leviticus 26:8; I mean to say you get that sort of thing by comparison. So that by comparison there is so much more in two than in one. The disciples were sent out two by two by the Lord. It is much safer to go by twos because there is so much that may be said or done

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that may be inaccurate and therefore there is need of two to compare things.

F.J.F. Was that true with regard to the preaching of the word?

J.T. Well, I think so; the Lord sent them out by twos and I think it was to bring about accuracy in ministry.

W.J.S. Solomon says in Ecclesiastes, "Two are better than one", Ecclesiastes 4:9.

J.T. Just so; it is better under certain circumstances that two go out together, because the inaccuracy in ministry is very great and it is very important that we should have accuracy. There is no other book so accurate as the Scriptures and surely it is because God has designed it, that everything should be accurate.

Rem. That seems to be the mind of the Spirit in Acts 13 when He says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul", Acts 13:2.

G.V.D. When Paul journeyed it was usually with others; it speaks of "Paul and his company", Acts 13:13.

J.T. "Paul and his company", it is a remarkable thing that it should be so stated.

F.J.F. Ecclesiastes says woe betide the man who, when he falls, has no one with him to lift him up.

J.T. Yes; and the verse just quoted from Ecclesiastes says, "Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for their labour", Ecclesiastes 4:9.

F.S.C. The disciples are named by twos in Matthew.

J.T. That would illustrate, I suppose, what we often say, that the gospel by Matthew is the assembly gospel; Matthew is very accurate in giving facts that are needed in matters that are to be dealt with administratively.

A.N.W. Does the presence of two give balance in authority? Paul writes to Corinth with authority, but links a brother with him each time. Does it

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give a kind of balance to what we might call the severity of authority?

J.T. Just so.

A.E. W. What would you say about David's expression here in verse 9: "Thou art a wise man and thou shalt know what thou oughtest to do to him"? Although David gave him the facts he left the matters for Solomon to work out.

J.T. He assumes that Solomon was wiser than himself, I would say.

A.E.W. Have we not been tested in these last few months on the same line? There has been certain ministry, and perhaps we should like to be told in exact words what to do.

J.T. Well, it would encourage a man if he is setting out things to be told that he is a wise man; it would encourage him to be given to understand that he is worthy to be trusted with such a matter; that he is a wise man.

W.T.P. David tells Solomon about Joab, mentioning certain facts; but later when Solomon speaks of Joab himself he adds to it; he says, "He fell upon two men more righteous and better than he", bearing out what has just been said that he is a man that can be trusted and knows the facts and can enlarge on things.

C.A.M. The abundant way in which the wisdom of Solomon, who was a son, comes out in the Proverbs would show how right David's remark was. Do you not think that Proverbs is a book that perhaps we do not read sufficiently?

J.T. I have thought that many times, because it helps us to be accurate in what is stated.

A.N.W. Does Solomon not show his wisdom in asking for wisdom?

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. Does not the book of Proverbs bear upon the present dispensation? The Lord is really on

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the throne as a Son; He is on the Father's throne, therefore He is a Son.

J.T.Jr. Paul's prayer for the Colossians was to that end, was it not? He prayed that the saints might be "filled with the full knowledge of his will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding", Colossians 1:9. There is an allusion also in that chapter to the Son of the Father's love; so that evidently Colossians would give a sort of lead into the matter of wisdom, how to be wise men.

C.A.M. Referring to Colossians, is it not interesting that it says of David in this chapter that "he reigned seven years in Hebron"? I think you have stressed that Hebron is a Colossian setting.

J.T. That is what I would say now. The Son of the Father's love is a remarkable touch in Colossians.

A.N.W. He has a kingdom, "the kingdom of the Son of his love;" Colossians 1:13 it is such a kingdom!

F.H.L. We see the end of the false king here in Adonijah and the reigning of the true king in Solomon. Is it typical of Christ reigning and all that is false judged and dealt with?

J.T. Yes, quite! The Father coming in in relation to the Son: "Sit at my right hand, until I put thine enemies as footstool of thy feet", Psalm 110:1.

J.H.E. What Adonijah says is false: "Thou knowest that the kingdom was mine, and all Israel had set their faces on me that I should reign"; but the kingdom never was his.

E.A.L. Abishag would hardly represent the assembly; she does not come into the full position of being David's wife. It says of Isaac that Rebecca became his wife and he loved her; but Abishag does not have that place with David, yet Adonijah evidently sought a prominent place by getting her hand. Leaders in christendom claim to have the church, but they do not really have it.

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J.T. There seems to have been more in what Adonijah asked than appears on the surface.

E.A.L. Solomon detects that he was really after the kingdom; it seems a very deep matter.

J.T. Quite so. Bathsheba was remiss, really; she was a weak person, I would say.

V.C.L. Does it not raise an issue in view of all that the sisters are coming into, so that a note of sobriety is injected? If in chapter 1 she stood in a general sense for what is good, we see here that she lends herself to what is poor. Should we not all be on guard about that?

J.T. I think the idea in the second chapter is that we might get the full benefit of the truth that comes out in the first chapter.

A.B.P. Does it suggest that there may be matters that occur at the present time that are not adjusted properly, but the judgment seat of Christ will bring them under review?

J.T. "The judgment seat of Christ"; we must all appear there. Think of the accuracy involved in that!

J.T.Jr. Do you not think that in the assembly matters should be resolved? Should not the assembly see that matters are settled now, that things are not left till that day?

J.T. I think the book of Proverbs works out the truth of the assembly; the last chapter is the feminine side and the woman takes up things. The book of Proverbs works that out.

F.N.W. It says in that last chapter of Proverbs, "The heart of her husband confideth in her", Proverbs 31:11.

J.T. I was just thinking of that word: "The heart of her husband confideth in her". That is how the Lord takes account of the assembly.

F.N.W. And do you think that the knowledge that Christ must reign and put all enemies under His feet underlies that fidelity in the assembly?

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J.T. He must do it; the 'must' there is moral. He must reign, everything is to be put under His feet; He will not stop until that is so.

T.N.W. Do you think that as there was offence to the Holy Spirit in the case of Ananias and Sapphira at the beginning, there is perhaps some correspondence when offences occur today, since the Holy Spirit has been given His place in the assembly?

J.T. Well, the husband and wife became liars. The passage reads "But a certain man, Ananias by name, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and put aside for himself part of the price, his wife also being privy to it; and having brought a certain part, laid it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, Ananias, why has Satan filled thy heart that thou shouldest lie to the Holy Spirit, and put aside for thyself a part of the price of the estate? While it remained did it not remain to thee? and sold, was it not in thine own power? ... Thou hast not lied to men, but to God. And Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and expired. And great fear came upon all who heard it. And the young men, rising up, swathed him for burial, and having carried him out, buried him. And it came to pass about three hours afterwards, that his wife, not knowing what had happened, came in. And Peter answered her, Tell me if ye gave the estate for so much? And she said, Yes, for so much. And Peter said to her, Why is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? Lo, the feet of those that have buried thy husband are at the door, and they shall carry thee out. And she fell down immediately at his feet and expired. And when the young men came in they found her dead; and, having carried her out, they buried her by her husband", Acts 5:1 - 10. Well now, the word 'burial' is attached to these two people; it was an essential thing that they should be buried. They did not only die but they were

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buried. I believe the idea is that they were truly saints; although they erred they were truly saints. God will have us to understand that these who sinned in the early days of christianity were truly saints and they were saved. So that we should be encouraged in the truth and follow up things so as to have them right before God. The thought of grace is right in the midst of the brethren; but although it is there, there may be death, there may be severe penalty. They are really christians nevertheless; God will establish that they are really christians.

Ques. Where would you put men like Joab who is mentioned in our chapter as coming under severe penalty?

J.T. Oh, he was a politician.

Ques. He had dedicated things, had he not?

J.T. Well, quite so; God would honour that, He honours everything of the kind whatever it may be; at the same time He honours His own work, and even if there be sin attached to it He honours it nevertheless.

F.J.F. Do you mean that Ananias and Sapphira were worthy of burial?

J.T. I think that is the idea. There is a word in the book of Ecclesiastes that if a man has no burial there is a penalty attached to it. Why should he not have a burial? And why should God attach so much to burial? "If a man beget a hundred sons, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, but his soul be not filled with good, and also he have no burial, I say an untimely birth is better than he", Ecclesiastes 6:3. It is a most severe matter.

F.J.F. I have noticed at some burials that the coffin is not lowered into the grave until after the brethren have gone away. That is hardly right, is it?

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J.T. It is not the completion of the matter. And cremation is wrong. God intended that man should go into the grave.

C.A.M. Do you not think that Satan makes his last effort in connection with the bodies of the saints, as he did about the body of Moses? It seems to necessitate that a definite stand be taken to have the burials of the saints according to God. Would you say that?

J.T. I would indeed.

E.A.L. Certain details of burials are becoming regulated by trade union control.

J.T. That only shows how the unions disregard the commandments of God in small things; they think there is nothing in them whereas there is much, for God is careful to follow up His commandments and one of them is that people should be buried.

G.H. Abraham said that he would bury his dead out of his sight.

J.T. Exactly; he was the first one to say that; and it was his own wife. It was remarkable.

H.C.McG. "Pious men buried Stephen", Acts 8:2.

J.T. Very good, pious men; they carried Stephen to his burial.

A.R. We may need some adjustments in regard to burials; too much may be left to the undertaker, which is wrong.

J.T.Jr. The brethren should be free to take charge in the meeting room.

J.T. Although Abraham's wife was dead, she was his; she was his dead.

A.R. So that the Lord would help us to have everything done in a comely way for our dead.

A.C. In certain countries in Europe the brethren partly fill the grave, based upon the scripture, "Pious men buried Stephen". They consider that burial has

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not been completed by merely lowering the coffin into the grave.

D.Macd. Is it better to have our funeral meetings in our own meeting rooms rather than at the undertaker's rooms?

J.T. I would think so, if it can be done. I think it is very much happier that the brethren have the whole matter under their hand. And it is well to call attention to these things.

But now we want to say something about what Adonijah proposed to Bathsheba: "And Adonijah the son of Haggith came to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon. And she said, Comest thou peaceably?". Now I think we may as well pay attention to this incident because Bathsheba is not just right in it. This man would secure Abishag for his own purposes, and there is no doubt something more underneath that he would have done. Why should he go to so much pains to go to Bathsheba to get this person as his wife? There must be something underneath it; we have to discern what may be underneath. The devil may have something to bring out in some other way than appears.

A.N.W. Solomon saw that it might mean the loss of the kingdom.

J.T. Just so; he had discernment and it is well that he did have. It shows that sisters are not always so accurate as they might be.

A.B.P. Would there be some suggestion in this in figure, of what we see in the Romish church as to the mother of Jesus being spoken to in prayer?

J.T. That has come up peculiarly of late, and it is a very dreadful thing that is being said now about the Lord's mother, a very dreadful thing; we should all be on our guard not to be tainted by what they say about her, that she has gone into heaven bodily. It is a terrible thing.

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A.P. Do we not see in this action the evidence of determined self-will on the part of Adonijah? He admits that it is of Jehovah that Solomon should be on the throne; he says, "Thou knowest that the kingdom was mine, and all Israel had set their faces on me that I should reign; but the kingdom is turned about and is become my brother's, for it was his from Jehovah". It was self-will on his part in not accepting fully what Jehovah had done.

D.P. Is this not a very subtle attack of Adonijah through Bathsheba, aiming at Solomon?

J.T. Very likely. What motive he had I cannot say; he may have had some other motive that is not apparent.

A.N.W. He is following the serpent's precedent of approaching the woman to reach the man.

J.T. Just so.

V.C.L. There are four matters of judgment here, starting with Adonijah, and each one is differently measured according to the sin in each case. Is there not to be this spirit of wisdom today functioning in the assembly, that every matter that comes up is to be judged according to the accurate facts?

J.T. I would fully go with that.

L.W. Benaiah seems to be fully with Solomon in this matter; he also has a very interesting history with David. Is there something for us to learn as to manhood in this? It says, "And king Solomon sent by the hand of Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; who fell on him, that he died". That is in relation to Adonijah. And then verse 29, "And Solomon sent Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, saying, Go, fall on him"; and again in verse 34, "And Benaiah the son of Jehoiada went up and fell upon him, and put him to death; and he was buried in his own house in the wilderness. And the king put Benaiah the son of Jehoiada in his stead over the host".

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J.T. It is a matter of adjustment in relation to chapter one; the thing has to be gone into fully and dealt with, showing that in assembly affairs things have to be gone into thoroughly to have them right; that we must get all the facts together, bringing out the moral result in each case.

A.R. Solomon said that Adonijah wanted the kingdom. I was thinking about the place the virgin Mary is said to have as having gone to heaven bodily. I suppose that today Satan wants the kingdom, as Adonijah did. But would the truth about the sisters and their comely place in the assembly counteract this kind of teaching?

J.T. Well, that is right; we have to watch because Satan is an active opponent; he is one of the fallen angels but we cannot say much about his history; but he is a terrible being.

F.J.F. Do you think that inventions which are current, including television, will be used of Satan in bringing forward the man of sin?

J.T. I must confess I do not know much about these things; I am afraid to touch them.

W.W.M. There is a verse in chapter 2 that should be an encouragement to everyone: David says to Solomon, "But shew kindness to the sons of Barzillai the Gileadite, and let them be of those that eat at thy table; for so they came up to me when I fled because of Absalom thy brother". That is not forgotten.

J.T. Quite so; but how the judgment of God pursues evil in view of its effort to overthrow good!

A.B.P. How can we account for David having a judgment of these men for so long and yet doing nothing to bring about this adjustment?

J.T. Well, God has certain rights and of course He holds to them. He does not need to give an answer to everything; He holds to His rights. What happened in this case is that He is waiting for

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Solomon; He is going to use the right man to deal with them; and now God is waiting for Christ.

A.B.P. Would there be an element of grace; giving space for repentance?

J.T. I think rather that it is moral judgment, God is waiting for the right opportunity; He is attending to matters in His time.

Rem. In Numbers 16 Korah, Dathan and Abiram rise up and rebel against Moses. God watches this and takes His own time; and then Moses names it, that they are seeking the priesthood. And then we have the terrible judgment of God in swallowing them up.

J.T. So the time came, God waited for the time. We cannot overcome God, we may as well accept that. The judgment of God in Revelation is most impressive; how things are dealt with in time. The judgment of God is there.

W.W.M. There is a scripture in Ecclesiastes that bears on this very matter. It says, "Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the children of men is fully set in them to do evil. Though a sinner do evil a hundred times, and prolong his days, yet I know it shall be well with them that fear God, because they fear before him; but it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days as a shadow, because he feareth not before God", Ecclesiastes 8:11 - 13.

Rem. The apostle Paul says, "Do not judge anything before the time, until the Lord shall come, who shall also both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and shall make manifest the counsels of hearts; and then shall each have his praise from God", 1 Corinthians 4:5.

J.T. I think these readings such as we are having this evening are peculiarly advantageous, for they help us to understand Scripture, they give the Scriptures a bearing they would not have otherwise.

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S.W. In the end of our chapter it says, "The kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon", as though all these persons had to be put down before that could be. Solomon had quit himself like a man in handling these matters and it was after this that the kingdom was established.

F.J.F. If you have knowledge of some evil in the assembly but you have no witness, is it right to bring it forward?

J.T. I would not attempt it until there is witness.

Rem. David says to Solomon, "And thou knowest also"; David and Solomon were witnesses as to this matter.

J.T. Quite so; David brings the matter forward to Solomon; he wants Solomon to do things. He is saying, as it were, My son is young and I want to give him all the advantage that he can have. That is what David has in his mind, and so it was that Solomon was successful, highly successful.

V.C.L. This period is the day of grace, but nevertheless we are to arrive at a judgment of what is hateful to God, because it says in Revelation that "God has judged your judgment upon her", Revelation 18:20. In some sense He waits for the saints to arrive at a proper judgment.

J.T. So it is "your judgment", it is our judgment; God is leaving it to us to give the evidence.

W.T.P. The Lord said that the darnel and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest. Evidently there was a judgment about it but it was reserved until the Lord's time. Would that bear on this?

J.T. It does. God has a right to time, and to dispose of it as He will. He is waiting for the right time to expose certain wicked things; there are many wicked things current in the world which are against God. They are not exposed yet, but God is going

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to deal with them and He takes His own time to do it.

F.N.W. Does Paul follow that same principle? He says, "Having in readiness to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled", 2 Corinthians 10:6.

J.T. Very good, "When your obedience shall have been fulfilled". He waited for the Corinthians. It is very wonderful how God waits for the saints!

A.B.P. Are these circumstances permitted for the approved to come to light?

J.T. Just so, that the approved may become manifest among you; not only manifest, but among you, that they might be manifest among the Corinthians.

A.B.P. So that Zadok and Benaiah are established as approved, and placed in positions of trust.

A.N.W. And while Joab is not exposed in connection with Absalom, he is exposed in connection with Adonijah.

Rem. You have helped us on the scripture in Hebrews 12 that we have come "to God, judge of all", Hebrews 12:23. That should make us all restful.

J.T. He is "judge of all", nothing is to be omitted; in the end, He will see to everything.

A.T.D. It has been said by some that they are content to leave certain things until the judgment seat of Christ; but since we have come to the Judge of all there is no necessity to wait, is there? Things can be settled now.

J.T. Just so, and how many things we have to settle that way! And how many things there are that are still unsettled!

F.J.F. What does it mean when it says that some men's sins are ... ..going before to judgment; and with some they follow after?

J.T. That is an observation that a person would make as he takes account of things. You observe

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what God does and you can refer to it later.

B.F.T. It speaks in Chronicles of Solomon being a man of rest; but these who were dealt with were not men of rest; they were men of violence.

J.T. It is very comforting to think that God is God. Whatever happens, God will see to matters; He is all powerful.

R.H.S. Is there any difference between the judgment seat of Christ and the judgment seat of God?

J.T. Not much; it is only a question of the Persons.

F.J.F. Shall we not be perfect when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ?

J.T. Surely; what a comforting thought!

J.T.Jr. We will be in bodies of glory then.

W.W.M. Barzillai did not go the whole way, but his attitude was right; he was a friend of David. There may be some of that kind that are weak and not able to go the whole distance, yet their attitude is taken account of, is it not?

J.T. Just so. It is beautiful to see God remembering these dark matters and bringing them where they will be properly dealt with. Solomon is on the throne; and so we may say in our case now, that Solomon is on the throne. Let us therefore be restful. There is Someone to look after things.

J.H.E. These are all test cases, David told Solomon that he was a wise man and would know what to do.

J.T. Quite so. What a wonderful position God has made for us! And so we ought to be restful and not tossed about with every wind of doctrine; be restful in knowing God, and how faithful He is. "God is faithful" it says, so that we should be restful in all matters that seem impossible.

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MAN (16)

Luke 1:5 - 25, Luke 1:57 - 86; 1 Kings 17:1; 2 Kings 2:1 - 25

J.T. I think that the brethren will recognise that these two men, John the baptist and Elijah, may be considered together as representing the prophetic ministry of both the Old and New Testaments. The thought is to start with John the baptist and then to revert to Elijah. We have read more about John the baptist because he is so prominent in the New Testament and is a forerunner of the Lord Jesus, thus having a unique place. Elijah has a great place in the New Testament too. The Lord Himself refers to him that if Israel could receive John the baptist he might be regarded as being identical with Elijah. So there is a strong connection between these two prophets. Moses was a characteristic prophet, too; in a sense he was the leading prophet because he speaks of Christ as One who would be raised up like unto him. He says, "A prophet shall God raise up to you ... like me", Acts 7:37. That would refer to the Lord Himself.

F.H.L. Is there a link with Malachi, "Remember the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, Behold, I send unto you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and terrible day of Jehovah"? Malachi 4:4.

J.T. That is a good contribution to our subject for it links Elijah with John the baptist.

A.B.P. Will you say something about "the spirit and power of Elias"?

J.T. I think it speaks for itself, and shows how remarkably John the baptist and Elias are linked in the Scriptures.

V.C.L. Do John the baptist and Elias link on two dispensations? John the baptist does not seem to come into the Spirit's day but he links on with it as seeing the Lord, and Elias also saw the Lord

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on the holy mount. Is there something noteworthy in this feature of manhood, linked on with the Lord's own day?

J.T. Quite so; and Moses was on the mount. He was the meekest man in all the earth. That is a point to be connected with our subject.

A.R. It says in John's gospel, "There was a man sent from God, his name John", John 1:6.

J.T. There again the word 'man' is prominently used. Also, we have "the man Christ Jesus", showing that God had in His mind to stress the thought of manhood as distinguished from all other creatures; angels and all other creatures. The thought of man is greatly stressed, in that sense.

J.T.Jr. Is grace especially in mind in what is coming in through John? His name suggests grace.

J.T. Yes; the name John carries that meaning.

J.T.Jr. And is Elijah's ministry on the same line? Was it grace moving in regard to conditions in Israel?

J.T. Well, I think that Elisha, following Elijah, is more representative of the spirit of grace than Elijah himself.

Ques. Is the spirit of Elias seen in John the baptist in his severity toward the Sadducees and others who were not real?

J.T. Well, we are told, early in the gospel of John, that "the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ", John 1:17.

Ques. Do you mean that John's incoming was the incoming of grace?

J.T. The fulness of the thought is in the Lord Himself, grace and truth subsist by Him.

Rem. You had stressed that grace characterised Elisha rather than Elijah and I wondered if the spirit of Elijah was seen in John when he was severe in what he had to say to such as the Sadducees.

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J.T. Just so; he was severe, but Elisha was marked by grace.

S.C.M. In the last verse of chapter 1 it says that "the child grew". Adam, being created, would be of full stature, but all other men grew, did they not?

J.T. Yes; you are stressing the idea of growing.

A.R. The baptist says, in John's gospel, "This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me", John 1:30.

A.N.W. Have you any thought why the life of John the baptist was cut off as it was, in view of the Lord's word about him in chapter 17 after the experience on the holy mount?

J.T. Well, I would say that it was not accidental. His work was done, I would say. There was not anything left undone that he should have done before he was taken.

A.N.W. It is striking the way the Lord puts the matter, saying, "But I say unto you that Elias has already come, and they have not known him, but have done unto him whatever they would. Thus also the Son of man is about to suffer from them. Then the disciples understood that he spoke to them of John the baptist", Matthew 17:12,13.

J.T. Well, there was nothing left undone for John the baptist to do. So that we can calculate that the prophets were raised up of God and they did what they were intended to do; God saw to that. The work was done by each one.

J.T.Jr. Some served for comparatively short periods; they had very compressed lives. John the baptist was perhaps young when beheaded.

J.T. I would think that he was not more than thirty years of age. And that is a very important matter too, to think that God had His own thoughts for John and these thoughts went through, they were not allowed to fall to the ground. Nothing can fall to the ground that God orders; and that is true

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as to every christian, I am sure. Things are all done according to God in each case. It is a great thing to have in mind that our lives are in His hand.

E.E.H. What are we to learn from the uniqueness of the birth of John the baptist? It seems to resemble so closely the birth of our Lord Jesus.

J.T. It certainly was unique, but it was brought about in a measured way, too. John was thoroughly suitable to be the forerunner of Christ, and he took a lowly place in his service, following his Master fully. Each of us must learn from Christ, even John the baptist.

A.B.P. Is suffering attendant upon the service of the prophet? Stephen could ask, "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?", Acts 7:52. Does it seem that suffering is the order of the day for the prophets?

J.T. And the order of the day for us, too. "Because to you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also", Philippians 1:29. It is given to us to suffer.

A.B.P. The apostle Paul exhorts us to "be emulous of spiritual manifestations, but rather that ye may prophesy"; 1 Corinthians 14:1 should we realise that it will involve suffering?

J.T. I would think so, it is given to us to suffer. It is a great advantage to be sufferers. Many of us would prefer to avoid suffering, and in a certain sense it is right to have that feeling, but at the same time it is given to us on behalf of Christ to suffer; not only to believe but to suffer for Him.

W.W.M. Is it not important to note what the Lord Himself said about John the baptist? "But what went ye out to see? a prophet? Yea, I say to you, and more than a prophet: this is he of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say to you, that there is not arisen among the born of women a greater than John the baptist", Matthew 11:11.

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J.T. That is very remarkable; it is one of the greatest tributes that you can get anywhere except as to the Lord Himself, and perhaps Paul.

A.N.W. Is he not unique in that he is the subject of prophecy? His birth and coming were foretold in prophecy: "Thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways".

Ques. Is the bringing in of John distinct in the different gospels? In Luke it is a question of a son being brought in and his name John; then he is introduced in John's gospel as without any antecedents, a man sent from God whose name was John. Are these two presentations related to the character of the gospels themselves? Do we have the development of grace in one and in the other the introduction of the Son of God by a man sent from God?

J.T. Well, I think you are right; I would attach the idea of grace to John's gospel, too, although grace characterises Luke. It is perfectly right to regard John as the great gospel for grace; and it is suitable that John the baptist should have the peculiar place he is given in John's gospel for his name signifies grace.

Ques. In John's gospel the baptist denies and says that he is not Elias, but in Luke it says, "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias". What is the point in his going before Him in the spirit and power of Elias?

J.T. It is to distinguish Elias; at the same time it suggests the character of John's ministry.

Ques. Reference has been made to John's suffering pathway. The Lord said of him, "He was the burning and shining lamp, and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light", John 5:35. Would the burning refer to the suffering and the shining to his testimony?

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J.T. Very good. Will you say more?

Rem. Well, I only thought that the burning comes first in the Lord's reference; John was a burning and shining light. But in order that the shining might be maintained there had to be the consuming of all that was contrary.

J.T. Burning is something that is felt, and it may be a friendly warmth. John's ministry would not be hostile but friendly.

J.T.Jr. Energy is seen in John the baptist, the energy of manhood. That would be a feature of manhood. Energy marked him, and courage, in view of all that was against him. I was thinking of the young in that connection, that there is the energy of youth.

J.T. Persons who are used distinctively in the Lord's service are usually taken up young. The Lord does not take up old men in that sense, but young men, that they may be developed. And they should take heed to themselves too in their service and see to it that they are properly adjusted, and that they distinguish the ministry, and distinguish it in energy.

J.T.Jr. So that John was in the desert and had certain kinds of food and clothing, which I suppose we should know about as young men seeking to serve.

J.T. Quite so, there is nothing to minister to the flesh in the desert, you know.

"In the desert God will teach thee
What the God that thou hast found --
Patient, gracious, powerful, holy;
All His grace shall there abound". (Hymn 76).

That is a beautiful reference to what we are speaking about.

L.W. Is there some spiritual suggestion in what is said, that his food was locusts and wild honey and that his garment was of camel's hair and that he wore a leathern girdle about his loins?

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J.T. Well, there is nothing to distinguish him, nothing that the natural man would seek, nothing for the natural man at all; he was content with what the wilderness afforded him.

C.F.E. In Luke 1:15 it says, "He shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb", Luke 1:15. He was given the Holy Spirit at a very early age, even from his mother's womb.

J.T. Filled! Filled with the Spirit, just so. It is remarkable.

V.C.L. The time in which John comes in seems to have been somewhat dark, but would that not encourage us to know that whatever the crisis in the testimony God is prepared to work it out in a man?

J.T. Well, it may be in a woman, but manhood in that sense, because the word 'man' covers both man and woman. In the beginning it was: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. The woman is brought into it.

V.C.L. So that a Deborah came in when the male side of manhood was lacking. Would you say that a man or a woman filled with the Spirit is one of the greatest things that God has on earth?

J.T. That is good, and good for the sisters who are here, for they have been distinguished of late. They have had more put upon them than I have ever known before. God has brought them forward and He is going to support them in the position He has given them, and the brethren should do the same and be thoroughly with God in what He is doing. The sisters are greatly needed in bringing up children and in visiting the sick and in many other ways, for God has given them a wonderful field of service.

S.C.M. It is said of John: "He shall be great before the Lord", Luke 1:15. Is his greatness seen in the place he took when he said, "He must increase, but I must decrease", John 3:30.

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showing that he held the Lord as paramount?

J.T. Quite so. He was to be great before the Lord, not before men, "He shall be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb". That is a remarkable statement!

R.W.S. All this should help us in our meetings for prophetic ministry. In 1 Corinthians 14 where we have so much as to prophetic ministry, Paul speaks about being grown men. Should not all this strengthen, in these days of weakness, prophetic ministry in our localities?

J.T. And then manhood is seen in the way we bear things. We may say of a brother that he is the leading man in a meeting. That is often said, and there are many like that to whom the brethren look, which is right if we do not go beyond what is right and take too much upon ourselves. I thought I might add that to your remark. This is a time to be encouraged and be strong. We need men who will take on things and bear things so that matters are carried through; and strength is needed in the sense of manhood. "Quit yourselves like men; be strong", 1 Corinthians 16:13.

C.A.M. Is your thought in referring to Elijah at the present time specially in view of the near coming of the Lord, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people?

J.T. You are stressing the thought of a prepared people. What have you in mind?

C.A.M. The coming of the Lord, and whether the prophetic ministry referred to would take on the character of preparing the saints because the Lord's coming is so near.

J.T. The word 'prophetic' has to be carefully analysed as to its significance. It is not now a

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question of developing prophecy in itself, but the prophetic ministry, as you say, is the word that is used in the sense of exercising us.

F.N.W. It says in verse 16 of our chapter, "And many of the sons of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God". Would that be a true mark of prophetic ministry?

J.T. Very good, that would be true prophetic ministry, I would think.

F.N.W. Has not the ministry that has come to us through Mr. Darby and others who have followed him been characteristically a ministry of Christ? It moves our hearts to Christ.

J.T. That is phraseology which we frequently hear. He is ministering Christ.

Ques. And is not the great end, as has been suggested, that persons are turned "to the thoughts of just men, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people"? Is not that the character of the ministry today, to make ready for the Lord a prepared people?

J.T. And each one of us is to see to it that he is prepared. It is not that others prepare us, but we are to see to it that we are prepared. It is "a prepared people".

J.T.Jr. John's parents were called upon to do certain things but then John had to do certain things, also: "Many of the sons of Israel shall he turn ... And he shall go before him", and so on.

J.T. Just so; and he did too, he knew what to say.

F.H.L. Each of the gospels refers to Isaiah 40:3, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of Jehovah". Is there any application of that at the present time?

J.T. Preparing the way is a matter that has to be looked into as to the use of the word 'way'. It is a peculiar word and its use in Scripture is to be noted.

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F.H.L. In the beginning of Acts it is emphasized particularly is it not?

J.T. Quite so; we get the idea of it in the book of Acts. And so in chapter 10 Cornelius is brought into it and there are other such men as that; they indicate what is meant.

Rem. Paul's word to Timothy as to the Scriptures is that "the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work", 2 Timothy 3:17.

J.T. Yes, fully fitted; just so. The word to Timothy was: "But thou, abide in those things which thou hast learned", 2 Timothy 3:14. The question is how each one looks after himself, or herself, because we have to see to it. Of course, the elders are to look after everyone in the meeting; but at the same time each brother and sister is to look after himself, to see to himself. "Give heed to thyself" Paul said to Timothy. I think it is very important that each one sees to himself, and does not count on others to look after him.

A.N.W. "Give heed to thyself and to the teaching; continue in them; for, doing this, thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee", 1 Timothy 4:16.

J.T. Just so, very good: "Thyself and those that hear thee".

A.A.T. In 1 Corinthians 14:3 it says, "But he that prophesies speaks to men in edification, and encouragement, and consolation", 1 Corinthians 14:3. Is that the character of the present ministry?

J.T. Surely, that is what we call prophetic ministry. The idea is that the prophetic ministry builds up the brethren, dealing with them in every phase of their beings.

A.A.T. Why does it say "speaks to men"?

J.T. That word includes women as well as men, it means responsible persons.

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A.N.W. "He ... speaks with a tongue ... to God: ... he that prophesies speaks to men", 1 Corinthians 14:3.

A.P. John the baptist sealed his ministry with his blood. Did he develop spiritual manhood through suffering? He was able to rebuke Herod; he suffered for the sake of others.

J.T. Just so, he was honoured in the way he suffered. The Lord refers to him in that sense, that they "have done unto him whatever they would", Matthew 17:12. They took latitude in regard of him. And it is given to us too, every one of us, to suffer for His sake.

Ques, Would the initial word of "Elijah the Tishbite, of the inhabitants of Gilead", in 1 Kings 17, connect a local position with a matter of universal importance? He said, "As Jehovah the God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, except by my word". That would affect everybody, would it not?

J.T. Just so, what a wide thought it is! And Elijah could say that it was according to "my word". We should not be ashamed to use the personal pronoun if necessary when it is a question of the word of God.

Rem. And so it might be that the prophetic word spoken here or elsewhere could affect the whole universal position.

J.T. Quite so. And as we were saying, it is "except by my word". So that we can use personal pronouns if necessary, if God is indicating that we should use them.

A.N.W. The introduction of this wonderful man Elijah so abruptly on the scene as sent from God is so very much like John the baptist whom we have been considering.

J.T.Jr. There is no account of his previous history, therefore would it mean what God has worked secretly in persons?

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J.T. Quite so. That lends force to his reference to "my word". Mr. Darby's writings will confirm what I have said, that we need not be ashamed of speaking of ourselves if we can speak according to what the Lord conveys to us. We need not be afraid of it if we want to convey the truth by it.

J.T.Jr. "I myself, Paul", 2 Corinthians 10:1.

J.T. Just so, how free Paul was to do it.

G.V.D. When James was about to give a prophetic touch he said, "Brethren, listen to me", Acts 15:13.

J.T. Very good.

Ques. Would Deborah be such a person when she said: "The villages ceased in Israel, ceased until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel"? Judges 5:7.

J.T. Just so; exactly! Why should she not say it? Why should women not have their place properly? If one can illustrate the truth through speaking about oneself, do it and God will support it.

V.C.L. There was power in what Elijah said here but later on he lost his power when thinking of himself. Is it a question of one being conscious of the Spirit of God having right of way?

J.T. Quite so.

F.H.L. Elijah must have retained his power during the three and a half years of dearth, according to James 5.

J.T. Yes, just so; what man is to be compared with Elijah and the peculiar place he had? I remember dear Mr. Revell saying that Elijah went back to Horeb and resigned his commission. God accepted his resignation but He took him to heaven.

T.E.H. James says that he prayed "and it did not rain upon the earth three years and six months; and again he prayed, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth caused its fruit to spring forth", James 5:17,18.

J.T. So that the stress is not so much on grace as authority, with Elijah. It is the authority of

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God, what God wants to do or say, and we cannot question that.

A.R. It says in Hebrews 13:7: "Remember your leaders who have spoken to you the word of God; and considering the issue of their conversation, imitate their faith", Hebrews 13:7

J.T. Quite so, "the word of God".

A.B.P. Why does James speak of Elias as a man of like passions to us; is it to encourage us to be like Elias?

J.T. He had the ordinary passions that men have, God knows that for He made us, and He is prepared to use us if we are prepared to speak the word of God, even though we may be required to speak of ourselves.

R.W.S. It says in 2 Kings 2:9, "And it came to pass when they had gone over, that Elijah said to Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I am taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me", 2 Kings 2:9.

J.T. How he valued Elijah! He wanted a double portion of Elijah's spirit. And it is open to anyone of us to get the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a full portion; we are to be filled with the Spirit. The Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask.

R.W.S. We specially need the Spirit in these difficult days!

J.T. Just so, every one of us needs the Spirit. We cannot get along without Him. If anyone wants to make progress as a christian he needs the Spirit; he can get the Spirit through asking, if he is a believer.

A.B.P. In our last three readings there have been transitional periods. There was a changeover from Moses to Joshua, and then from David to Solomon, and now from Elijah to Elisha. There must be some point in this thought being brought before us so frequently. Such times are usually difficult and test

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discernment and fidelity. Would it seem that Elisha felt this and felt the need of a double portion of Elijah's spirit to rightly carry on?

J.T. Quite so, and he got it too; he saw Elijah when he went up. And so the Lord gives a full portion to everyone of us who seeks it. If we are really believers we should not be without the Spirit for He is available to every believer.

A.N.W. Elijah said that Elisha had asked a hard thing. Is the hardness on the part of the one desiring it? Is it that we need to be in a fit state?

J.T. It would imply that the thing was worth having and that it would cost something. And so, if we get the Spirit it is no light matter. Think of what it has cost Christ that we should have the Spirit.

F.H.L. Was it not an act of grace on Elijah's part to go with Elisha, in verse 1, as if it would confirm him in his service?

J.T. Very good. He went with him and clearly he wished it so.

A.R. What is the thought in the chariot of fire and horses of fire? Do they suggest the power of God?

J.T. I suppose so, a chariot and horses suggest the power of carrying.

Ques. In Deuteronomy 21:17, a double portion is to be given to the firstborn; is this idea connected with the gift of the Holy Spirit as distinguishing the firstborn ones?

J.T. It is the real christian position marked by liberality; it is the full thought. Think of what the fulness of the Spirit means in the singular, and then a double portion! What fulness there is in that! And that is christianity; the fulness of things that God brings in, and we should not be content to be without it.

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G.H. Is being full of the Holy Spirit the idea of the double portion?

J.T. Just so; "be filled with the Spirit", Acts 9:17. The Lord Jesus was said to be full of the Holy Spirit -- not filled but full. It was proper to Him, He was full of the Holy Spirit.

A.P. Is the Spirit given to us under certain conditions? There is the principle of asking as in Luke 11; then the principle of obedience as in Acts 5:32; the principle of faith in Galatians 3; and then on hearing the word as in Acts 10.

J.T. Very good. The book of Acts opens up this whole matter as to the Spirit and how available He is to us as believers, but it is on God's own terms, not on ours.

W.W.M. Is this incident with Elijah and Elisha typical of the first chapter of the Acts where the disciples stood and watched the Lord go up to heaven? And is it an important matter to consider the thought of seeing Him go up?

J.T. The first part of the Acts is full of the thought of the Lord going up and how the Spirit came in, and the fulness of it all; the plenitude of it. And if we are really believers we are on the same basis, for the Spirit is still here.

J.T.Jr. The Spirit helps us in difficult matters that come up amongst us to which we might attach this idea of double care meetings and visiting that involve a good deal of exercise, but the Spirit is with us to give us patience to go over matters and go through with them and have them settled.

J.T. And so in the matter of the sisters which is constantly coming up, the Spirit of God gives us understanding of the whole matter; and it is a great matter too, to understand the place they have and the way in which God can use them, for they are to be usable, not simply numbers of sisters but sisters who can be used in the testimony.

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W.W.M. Would you say that in our recent care meetings when our sisters have been with us that there is more of the Spirit there than there has been before?

J.T. I am certain of that; we had a matter before us on Saturday night relating to a brother and his wife, who were present and it was put upon them that they should speak and they did speak. And we are now waiting on the result of the Spirit in these two persons.

S.W. The evidence of Elisha having had the spirit of Elijah is seen in that he smote the waters with the mantle of Elijah.

J.T. Quite so, he was not ashamed to follow Elijah, to be a disciple. He did not want to make out that he was equal to Elijah but he was not ashamed to carry on the service of Elijah.

A.B.P. He had the reputation of having poured water on the hands of Elijah.

J.H.E. The Spirit is sent from a glorified Christ.

J.T. Showing the great latitude there is for divine Persons in Their own realm. Who can tell how far heaven is? God alone knows.

F.N.W. It says here, "Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens". Do we see Christ as Man in heaven in Acts 1 and then the thought of manhood worked out here below in virtue of the Spirit's presence in Acts 2?.

J.T. Quite so; it says He was taken up.

S.W. Would you say that before persons are qualified for service there is a testing period such as Elisha had here, beginning at Gilgal and ending at the Jordan?

J.T. It is a testing period every minute that we are on the earth; it is a testing period all the time.

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MAN (17)

Matthew 1:1 - 25; Matthew 2:1 - 23; Matthew 4:1 - 11.

J.T. It is thought that we should go on with the New Testament and it is proposed to read from Matthew, which affords much to instruct us as to man, especially in relation to the assembly. Matthew is the assembly gospel as we understand. The Lord refers to man, in answering the devil, that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word proceeding out of the mouth of God, which is peculiarly fitting in considering the subject of man in the assembly gospel, in which it is said, "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18.

E.A.L. Joseph is called a righteous man.

J.T. A very fitting term for the subject before us, the idea of a righteous man.

V.C.L. Is there something in the fact that the generations are mentioned? Are we carried back to God's early thoughts of man as though to show the purity of the wholly right seed and that it came right down?

J.T. Just so, the Son of David is mentioned, and the Son of Abraham. So that the word is, "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham". I suppose David is mentioned first because the kingdom is involved. He is said to be "the king" in verse 6.

F.H.L. Joseph is brought in on that line, as son of David, is he not?

J.T. Yes, quite so.

E.E.H. Does the fact that only certain men are selected for the generations emphasise the idea of choice, a certain kind of man; not any man?

J.T. So that man is particularly in the whole matter; forty-two generations of men. It is not the

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generations as in Luke where the word "of" is used; it is the begetting here, which is a masculine idea.

C.F.E. Jehovah said of David that he was a man after His own heart.

J.T. Just so, who would do all His will.

S.C.M. Jehovah said that He had found David.

A.N.W. The last fourteen generations are said to have been "from the carrying away of Babylon unto the Christ", the anointed Man of God's choice.

J.T. We might say the Messiah.

S.C.M. Is it not worthy of note that Ruth, the Moabitess, is in the line from which David sprang?

J.T. There are certain persons that might be regarded, from a human standpoint, as dishonouring the generations, but they are mentioned nevertheless, inclusive of Ruth, and the wife of Urijah the Hittite, as if God is above all that may be discreditable, because redemption has been accomplished.

A.R. Joseph is referred to as the son of David here. Is it important to note that?

J.T. It is, because David is called the king, and kingship according to David is in mind. It is not any king, but kingship according to God comes in with David; he was the king.

A.R. Is Joseph in the royal line?

J.T. Just so; he belongs to the line of David, who is the king. We shall see the idea of kingship running through the gospel of Matthew; the idea of government or rule is found in this gospel, therefore David comes before Abraham in the first verse.

A.N.W. While certain of the feminine characters mentioned here may be spoken of as disreputable, the Christ must be of the virgin, "The virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son".

J.T. Just so, that is quoted from Isaiah.

C.A.M. Would you say something about the fact that there were three sets of fourteen generations?

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Would it mean that a certain history had to be gone through to bring us to Christ?

J.T. Well, quite so; that is to say the idea of the Messiah is in mind, and that idea runs right through Scripture.

E.J.F. Would that be confirmed by the frequent references to things being fulfilled that had been spoken before?

J.T. All matters relative to promise are involved; they are mentioned right through the book. It is a question of the promises made to the fathers, and especially the ruling element.

E.J.F. So that we are coming to the real thought of man now in Christ?

J.T. That is the idea. "Man shall not live by bread alone", the Lord said, as He answered Satan, "but by every word which goes out through God's mouth". And another thing that should be in our minds is that man is comparatively recent in the creation. Perhaps some of us have not thought that the creation of man is more recent than almost anything in the creation.

A.P. Is it to emphasise royalty in Matthew that the generations do not go back to Adam?

J.T. Well, Son of David is royalty but then, Son of Abraham is stated also.

A,P. Luke carries us back to Adam.

J.T. Adam is said to be "of God" Luke 3:38 in Luke; the genealogy is carried back to Adam and then to God. The word 'begotten' is not used in Luke, it is more the female side rather than the male idea.

C.A.M. It is very interesting that the genealogy should be written in these different ways in the two gospels and that in Matthew it is the masculine side giving character as the truth develops.

J.T. The masculine is seen in the idea of begetting as it says here, "Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob ...".

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It is the male side which implies responsibility more so than the female side.

C.A.M. Considering this masculine thought in Matthew, with the fact that the promises are in mind, makes it a very wonderful matter.

J.T. Think of the details that the blessed God Himself has gone into to bring all these details to light for us now in this remarkable book of Matthew, running down the forty-two generations! Think of all the details required to bring it out; and it is perfectly accurate, every thought of it. Certain omissions are made but God is perfectly accurate in making them; there is a reason for each omission in the genealogy, and if we look into it we will find that it is so.

W.W.M. Please say more about man being brought into the creation recently. Do you mean that God prepared the creation and then brought man into it?

J.T. It is wonderful that God should wait for centuries for the time to bring in the Lord Jesus, and to tell us about it as He does here.

A.N.W. The Spirit's comment in Hebrews 2:16 is, "For he does not indeed take hold of angels by the hand, but he takes hold of the seed of Abraham", Hebrews 2:16. That book notes the importance of the place of angels but shows that they are subordinated to man.

F.H.L. Man comes in as a result of divine counsel "Let us make man", Genesis 1:26. That could only be said as to man, could it not?

J.T. The word 'us' is plural, "Let us make man". And then it says, "Let them have dominion". That, too, is a plural word; "let them have dominion". The woman is brought into it.

Ques. Were the sons of God, mentioned in Job 38, created earlier than man?

J.T. Undoubtedly, "The sons of God shouted for joy", Job 38:7. They would be angels undoubtedly. The

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celebrations were by angels. We cannot say when angels were created.

W.W.M. Is it right that the great thought of God in bringing in the creation was to put man in it? And would man in it according to His purpose have the whole universe in mind?

J.T. Angels celebrated the creation, the founding of the earth, and no doubt man was in mind. The angels were taken up with it.

A.N.W. They "shouted for joy".

E.M. Mention has been made as to God making the creation and putting man into it, but is it right that in new creation God has His man in Christ, and He is going to make the new creation for Him?

J.T. He is said to be the beginning of the creation of God, not the new creation. The book of Revelation mentions that Christ is "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" Revelation 3:14. It is not the beginning of the new creation, but the beginning of the creation.

S.C.M. "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand", John 3:35. Would that fit in with what we are saying?

J.T. That is peculiar to John's gospel; the Father has done that.

A.R. That is in time, is it not? But "the beginning of the creation of God" Revelation 3:14 refers to the beginning of things, does it not?

J.T. The beginning of things, exactly. In all things He must have the pre-eminence, even if it is in relation to the ordinary physical creation. It is not that He is part of creation, but He has had to do with it, according to John 1.

V.C.L. Would the recency of man suggest that God would only allow a limited time to intervene between the creation of Adam and the bringing in of Christ? It says that "when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son", Galatians 4:4 and I wondered

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if that linked with the recency of man, that it was not a protracted period between the creation of Adam and the coming in of Christ.

J.T. The period, relatively speaking, was not a protracted one. The creation of man was comparatively recent. It can be reckoned historically, about six thousand years, as far as we know. And the final era will be the millennium; that is coming in after the present dispensation ends. We are waiting for that, the millennium will be the seventh great division in time.

S.C.M. In our chapter it says that David begat Solomon. Would that suggest that there is something coming in after the reign of David? Will it be the character of Solomon's reign in the millennium?

J.T. Yes, I see what you mean. The millennium will be the reign of peace.

T.N.W. If these men in the generations give character to each succeeding generation, that must stop short as to Christ Himself, must it not? None gave character to Him.

J.T. That would be seen in the Lord's own remark that a greater than Solomon is here. The Lord must always have the pre-eminence in everything. Solomon may be figurative of Christ but Christ is greater than Solomon.

A.N.W. David knew it well, because he called Him Lord in Psalm 110. The Lord raised the question, "If therefore David call him Lord, how is he his son?", Matthew 22:45. David knew who the great Son is.

F.H.L. After the Babe is born the enquiry is "Where is the king?". Is that in contrast to Herod? Though a Child, He is the King.

J.T. Yes, "The king ... that has been born". The magi had that in their minds, the King had been born. They had come a long distance and when they saw Him they worshipped Him. They recognised the divine dignity that was there.

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E.J.F. Would the two names given here have a bearing on that? "Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins", and again, "They shall call his name Emmanuel, which is, being interpreted, 'God with us'". Do these names set forth the greatness of Christ and convey to us what a great matter has taken place?

J.T. Just so, there could not be a greater thought than God with us.

A.N.W. We may wonder why Matthew, in verse 6, did not complete his quotation from Micah, which goes on to say, "Whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity", Micah 5:2. That involves Deity.

J.T. The Spirit of God had all this in mind, and we ought always to keep in mind that the Spirit of God is here in relation to the things of God and the whole position is held.

A.R. Verse 21 says, "He shall save his people from their sins", Does that refer to the Jews?

J.T. I suppose the Jew would be in mind, but it is His people. So the question is whether we can say that it is only the Jews, because we are His people too. But I daresay that it is a Jewish term.

A.R. I wondered if it confirmed what has been said, that Matthew brings in the Messiah, he identifies Him with a remnant.

J.T. Well, quite so.

V.C.L. Would His people be seen in John 1:12: "He came to his own, and his own received him not; but as many as received him, to them gave he the right to be children of God"? John 1:12. We are His by right.

J.T. The children of God are His people peculiarly.

D.P. Is the light thrown backward over the generations to establish the legal rights of the Lord to the throne?

J.T. Just so; "his people" would allude to that; He is the King; but then He is God Himself, "God with us"

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Ques. What link had Mary with these generations? The Lord had no link at all with Joseph, had he? Joseph was not really His father.

J.T. Oh, he was, officially; that is the idea here. Mary was the wife of Joseph, he had an official link with her; that is the legal idea. It says, "Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary".

Ques. Why is the public position stressed here? Is it because Joseph was the husband of Mary that the Lord has a link with this generation?

J.T. Well, the Lord Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, through Mary, so that the Lord had no link with Joseph in that sense. Joseph had a public link as the husband of Mary.

E.A.L. It says in Luke 3:23, "And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years old; being as was supposed son of Joseph", Luke 3:23. That 'supposed' can only be understood spiritually?

J.T. Yes, quite so. It is quite clear that there is no link with Joseph as far as the Lord's birth is concerned, for He was begotten of the Holy Spirit. The birth of the Lord Jesus is mysterious.

Rem. So that this is the public position.

J.T. Yes, it is to be kept clear in our minds at all times that the official thought is the great point in Matthew.

W.W.M. It says that Joseph was "unwilling to expose her publicly". That would be the public position. And then it says in the footnote, "The expression is characteristic: 'being a man not willing'". He was characteristically a man unwilling to expose.

J.T. He was a righteous man, and that is a great point. But we must keep clear as to the Lord Himself, that He is a divine Person and that He became incarnate; that is the word we use, and rightly so. He became incarnate, taking man's place here below.

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R.F.D. Why do we hear no more of Joseph when the Lord takes His place in public testimony? We often hear of His mother, but never again of Joseph.

J.T. There is nothing said about that. He is mentioned commendably in this section. We do not know when he died.

Ques. He shines in this chapter in that he pondered. Would that not help all of us in relation to the ministry and the truth generally? Paul says, "Think of what I say, for the Lord will give thee understanding in all things", 2 Timothy 2:7.

A.N.W. Is it not a wonderful thing that while the incarnation is a divine act, yet an honest and conscientious Jew in whom God is working can trace his Messiah legally in these verses?

J.T. Quite so, that is the point in Matthew. The legal side is alluded to in Matthew.

E.A.L. Joseph had certain latitude when he returned from Egypt into the land of Israel in chapter 2. He went into the parts of Galilee, and so fulfilled the prophecy: "He shall be called a Nazaraean". His change of locality fulfilled prophecy.

J.T. Very good, and God gives the same latitude to us oftentimes. God is God, but He comes down to where we are and He allows certain latitude. We make much of authenticity in a certain sense, but we also recognise certain latitude which God allows, bearing on His service.

Ques. Does Joseph represent the saints as caring for and protecting the interests of the Lord?

J.T. Very good. You can see what a man he was. He was selected for this place and he acted rightly in it. He did what was needed.

E.E.H. Our subject is man, but chapter 2 emphasises the little Child.

J.T. God would have that; the Spirit of God in recording these facts would make mention of the

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little Child. But He is always mentioned before His mother.

F.H.L. The great thought of man has to be reached through a process of development?

J.T. Quite so; according to Luke He grew, there was development, He was a real Man. Luke would tell us that He was subject to His parents.

F.H.L. It is a great thing to make a start, I suppose, and to have an objective, and we find the Spirit of God available to help us into the fuller thought.

A.R. The wise men saw both the little Child and His mother, but they worshipped Him: "And having come into the house they saw the little child with Mary his mother, and falling down did him homage. And having opened their treasures, they offered to him gifts, gold, and frankincense, and myrrh". There is a dogma being presented at me present time about Mary, but the wise men recognised Him alone.

J.T. It is a blasphemous thing and we do well to be stern in refusing it. These magi are to be particularly noted, they are distinguished men: "Now Jesus having been born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Herod the king, behold magi from the east arrived at Jerusalem, saying, Where is the king of the Jews that has been born?". Herod would use them in his effort to destroy the Child but they returned to their own country another way; they knew what to do, they went "another way", which is very remarkable. They discerned the real condition with Herod. God was in it no doubt, but they departed into their own country another way. We are not told what that other way was; they did it of themselves and God accepted it.

A.R. Did they get light as to conditions in verse 12?

J.T. Just so. "And being divinely instructed in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way".

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They were wise men, and it is for us to be wise in things of this kind and know what to do.

Ques. Are we to be helped as to the side of things which Herod suggests which would seek to destroy that which is of God?

J.T. Just so, because he did destroy the children; he did not destroy the Lord Jesus; it would not be permitted that he should, but he did destroy the children we are told, in chapter 2: 16 "Then Herod, seeing that he had been mocked by the magi, was greatly enraged; and sent and slew all the boys which were in Bethlehem, and in all its borders, from two years and under". What a terrible thing that was! A wicked idea came into his mind, and he destroyed the boys of two years old and under.

G.V.D. The second Psalm tells where the kings of this world stood. They took counsel against the Lord and against His anointed, but "he that dwelleth in the heavens shall laugh", Psalm 2:4. God will have the final say.

J.T. Yes, quite so.

F.H.L. During war periods the requirements of the authorities would come in between the parents and the children, to take the young men. We see evidences of manhood coming to light in our young but the authorities would claim them for the army.

J.T. The governments of certain countries permit non-combatant service, whereas at the beginning of the first great war there was considerable question about that and quite a little persecution too, but God has mercifully come in and provided a way through, and we should thank Him for it.

A.N.W. Has not that change come about, to a considerable extent, through the commendable testimony and conduct of the young men?

J.T. That has often been referred to and it has been taken account of by the authorities.

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A.N.W. The young men should consider that.

W.W.M. Have not our brethren been helped in placing before the government the same principles in relation to trade unionism in view of getting governmental recognition of conscience? Some may not be quite clear about that.

J.T. Well, I think God is helping on that line and the authorities are coming to see the issue. We should continue to pray that it may be so, that the thing might go through. Certain things have happened lately which indicate that our prayers are being answered. Therefore we should carry on in prayer, because prayer brings God into these matters.

V.C.L. The scripture we are considering speaks of a most critical time in which heaven took great interest and in which manhood came to light in Joseph. Several times there is direct instruction from heaven, to the wise men and to Joseph. In each case there is a desire to do what is right and heaven immediately comes in with the guiding word.

S.C.M. Similar conditions are seen in connection with the birth of Moses; the king of Egypt sought to destroy all the male children but Moses was preserved.

J.T. God came in to preserve Moses despite the efforts of the king; the midwives were charged to destroy all the males. Terrible thing! It is a similar idea to what we have here.

S.C.M. God made the midwives houses because they were faithful. God would compensate where there are right feelings.

Ques. Would these boys be regarded as suffering for Christ?

J.T. Do you mean the boys of two years old and under that were slain? I am sure that God would take account of that.

E.A.L. They would represent potential manhood?

J.T. Potential manhood; that is good.

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E.J.F. The references to the angel of the Lord should encourage us. You have often remarked that God, by angelic means, can come in and help in relation to the governments, whereas we cannot take part in government.

A.N.W. "And he was there until the death of Herod". That is a restrained statement but a very ominous one. He was there until the death of Herod.

A.R. Do the references to the angels in this chapter suggest the place heaven and the kingdom of the heavens have in the book? Is the rule of the heavens a feature in the book?

J.T. The kingdom of the heavens is a great feature in Matthew; not so much the kingdom of God but the kingdom of the heavens.

A.R. The angel is called the angel of the Lord. The footnote refers to him as the angel of Jehovah.

J.T. Well, it would be the same idea, of course, only the word 'Lord' may be used designedly to bring in the idea of authority which is stressed in Matthew.

C.A.M. Does not Matthew have a special link with the Old Testament scriptures?

J.T. That is right.

Ques. Would the mention of the angel of the Lord suggest that God was alert, speaking reverently, to guard the One who was coming in?

J.T. Well, quite so, the angel of the Lord, or of Jehovah, would convey the idea of authority. It belongs peculiarly to Matthew.

Ques. Do we have angelic disclosures today?

J.T. I do not think so; I understand that they are used providentially. This came before us in Australia. We discussed angelic services and intervention, and what was said at that time is available in the printed notes; angelic intervention is used of God to interfere with things that are against the truth. God comes in for us, in mercy. So that

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trade unionism may be taken into account in this sense, for God comes in to restrain men and He uses angelic intervention.

A.P. That is seen in Acts 12 where the angel of the Lord smote Herod.

E.A.L. In Hebrews 1:14 it says, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?" Hebrews 1:14.

J.T. Quite so, that is angelic service.

A.N.W. It is remarkable that Philip had a word from an angel and from the Holy Spirit; the angel directed him first and then the Spirit spoke to him.

J.T. Yes; and in Acts 10 the Spirit spoke in the same way to Peter.

S.C.M. In Matthew 4:11, it says, "Behold, angels came and ministered to him", Matthew 4:11.

J.T. Yes, that was the Lord.

A.R. In chapter 4:7 it says, "Jesus said to him, It is again written, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God". The footnote says 'Jehovah'. Does that suggest that the Lord is Jehovah?

J.T. Well, it is simply that, "Ye shall not tempt Jehovah your God", as it says in Deuteronomy 6:16.

A.R. But the Lord Himself is God, is He not?

J.T. Just so; but this reference to the Lord thy God is not the Lord Jesus; it is God: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".

C.A.M. The Lord Jesus was speaking as Man when He said that, was He not?

J.T. He was quoting from Deuteronomy.

C.A.M. So that He magnified the idea of manhood.

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MAN (18)

Matthew 5:1 - 26

J.T. So far as I know the brethren have been confirmed in the thought that we should continue the subject of Man. We have the New Testament before us now. The gospel by Matthew affords much for thought, especially in view of the assembly. We have been accustomed to consider Matthew as the assembly gospel which I am sure is right; so that we should have the assembly in our minds peculiarly in looking at this book. Much is made of the number of generations in the first chapter; verse 17 reads, "All the generations, therefore, from Abraham to David were fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away of Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away of Babylon unto the Christ, fourteen generations". The idea of the human race ought to be in mind in thinking of the generations, especially the generations of the saints. The book opens, "Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham", Matthew 1:1. Son of David is mentioned first, and then Son of Abraham. These great worthies, David and Abraham, are referred to in this gospel. Abraham would suggest the idea of the family and David would bring in the kingdom.

S.W. Chapter 1 contemplates generations which led up from Abraham to Christ; but is not Christ the progenitor: of a race, so that now the generation of Jesus Christ would link on with the saints?

J.T. All proceed from Him; it gives man a greater place than in the book of Genesis. "Thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive", 1 Corinthians 15:22.

A.B.P. In chapter 5, which we have read, the race seems to be subdivided into classifications of groups of persons who bear certain characteristics.

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The Lord began His discourse by speaking of the poor in spirit, and those that mourn, and so on. Would these be persons that feel the chaos that has come into the human race and have overcome in these chaotic conditions?

J.T. That is good; I think that we should consider the continents into which the physical earth has been divided; the continents such as Europe and Asia and so forth, including America, and see the way God has ordered and divided things according to His wisdom.

A.B.P. Do you mean that is an index to the divisions that He has made amongst men?

J.T. I think so, and if we were to go into the subject carefully we would find that it works out that way.

C.A.M. The kings of the East will be coming into more prominence before long. Is not the confusion of the present time due, in part, to the lack of the recognition of God's ordering?

.J.T. Yes; in considering the kings of the East we probably should begin with the kingdom of Babylon.

C.A.M. That is a very interesting matter, but it is a large subject, is it not, involving the whole world.

J.T. "The earth is Jehovah's" Psalm 24:1 -- it belongs to Him.

A.R. Paul was forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia; he was to go westward to Macedonia and not into Asia. In Acts 16 the movement was westward.

J.T. And we are in the west now, we are in the west as viewed from the continental side.

A.N.W. Do you view this great continent as an extension of Europe?

J.T. Yes; but at the same time it is the west and the continental idea attaches to it. We are to

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consider the continental feature that God has ordained on the earth.

J.C. Paul, speaking to the Athenians, says, that God has ordained times and the boundaries of men's dwellings that they might seek God. Is that in line with what you are saying?

J.T. Very good.

R.W.S. God gets more out of certain continents than others. I am thinking of what He has received from Europe and that He is getting much from Australasia, and something from America, but He is not getting much from Asia. Is this what you have in mind in emphasizing the continental thought?

J.T. Yes; if we consider the continent of Asia we have to subdivide that because of Asia Minor where the testimony was established early. But the continent, if considered by itself, has yielded little.

R.W.S. It is noteworthy that God is getting much out of the English-speaking nations, that the prosperity of the assembly is mainly in those countries.

J.T. All that is ordered of God, I am sure; it is the divine ordering.

A.N.W. Are the predominating millions in Asia being held in reserve by God for His own due time?

J.T. Just so; it is remarkable how the kingdoms of the earth have been developed in order, such as the Greek and Roman empires, and others which preceded them. God has ordered them, but think what political consequences enter into it all!

Rem. The magi came from the east.

A.B.P. Should we have in mind the principle set out in Deuteronomy 32:8? It says, "When the Most High assigned to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the children of Israel" Deuteronomy 32:8.

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J.T. That is an excellent suggestion because God has the children of Israel in His mind, and their inheritance is to influence and regulate other parts of the earth.

E.A.L. In the western nations the dignity of man and his liberty is upheld more than in Asia. In the east there is not the same dignity attaching to man. Has that been ordered by God for the setting of the assembly?

J.T. Quite so. God has a right to the nations or any part of them. If He is pleased to inaugurate things relating to Himself, such as christianity, He has a right to do so. We might just rest on that a little, and see where God has placed christianity geographically.

J.T.Jr. The word in Daniel is that the heavens rule. I suppose Matthew brings out that the heavens are to rule and christianity is the extension of that.

F.N.W. Is the role of the heavens seen in the reference in the generations in chapter 1 to the period from David to the carrying away of Babylon? Would that be rule in Jerusalem in Israel, first, and then the captivity inaugurating the times of the gentiles and the bringing in of the four great monarchies coming down to our time?

J.T. Just so; we do well to think of that and to enlarge on this matter of the nations and the relation that christianity has to nations and continents.

R.W.S. What you say about the geographical location of christianity is most illuminating.

A.P. In Acts 8,9 and 10 the three sons of Noah, representatively, are brought in in the Ethiopian eunuch, Saul of Tarsus and Cornelius, but no reference is made to the eastern nations such as India, Japan and China.

J.T. That is just what should be opened up, if possible; China, for example, is not brought in. We

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must not be merely political but we can see that China is ruled out, which is remarkable.

V.C.L. Later on in this gospel the Lord refers to how much better a man is than a sheep. In the eastern nations the value of the man has deteriorated.

J.T. Very much so, while the Greek, or general European area, has increased the value of man. Over against this we see deterioration in the peculiar element of Russia.

E.A.L. In Galatians it says, "For ye, as many as have been baptised unto Christ, have put on Christ. For there is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:27. Only the two classifications, Jew and Greek, are used. Is it that christianity was limited more or less to a small representation of the human race covered by the terms Jews and Greeks?

J.T. That is perfectly right. God will help us to come to this and get light as to it.

A.B.P. Is it right to assume that the power of nations which are asserting themselves aggressively will be more or less held in check as long as the church is here?

J.T. I would think so. God has ordered it that a certain control should exist, both in the north here and in the far south, Australia and New Zealand. There is a certain control with the English-speaking people mainly, and christianity has been established there; it finds more room among the English-speaking people than anywhere on the earth.

A.B.P. This relates to the favourable balance of power which God has ordained?

J.T. Yes.

J.T.Jr. Would it not seem that Satan sought to get into the sphere of government from the beginning? I suppose it is seen now in Russia; Satan

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would seek to overthrow the authority which God has placed in certain nations which favour christianity.

J.T. Russia has cast off christianity; it was a christian power at one time. But it has now become an infidel power, which is a very solemn matter and we can count upon God being against that.

A.R. God is helping in regard to trade unionism in Australia and New Zealand, and we can count upon Him helping us in this country.

J.T. It is very interesting to see what God is doing. If a matter is not of God it is nothing, but God is doing certain things, and He is doing them in these areas about which we have spoken..

R.W.S. These are God's prime thoughts, are they not, that the working out of christianity is to be in the assembly? Other things will come in on a lower level after the church goes, but we are now in the presence of His greatest thoughts.

J.T. The very greatest things are available to us today. "Ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:28 it says; all is bound up in Christ Jesus.

A.N.W. What has happened in Russia would make it apostate, which is different from the status of the far eastern nations.

F.H.L. The apostle, in 2 Thessalonians, speaks of that which restrains before the man of sin appears. Is this seen in the influence of the English-speaking nations?

J.T. Just so; but then there is India in the far east, a very great power which is more or less separate from Britain now, but it is a great power and I believe that in a certain sense God is using it on this line.

R.W.S. How do you view the United Nations in this relation, there being a mixture of nominally christian nations with those that are infidel and heathen?

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J.T. The question is, How much is being done? Previous efforts along these lines did not accomplish much.

R.W.S. Should we ask God to make it more effectual?

J.T. Well, it is a question if we should, or whether God should not take His own way and work among the continents as He always has done. Of course, we are to be thankful for what there is, and make the most of it! but it is among the English-speaking peoples that the work is going on. God is working elsewhere, too, but in His government God is using persons from the English-speaking peoples particularly in view of the assembly.

A.B.P. Would man's efforts at unity only serve as a background of failure against which Christ's kingdom will come into evidence?

J.T. It is artificial, it has failed before and it is failing again.

A.N.W. Does confederacy meet with divine approval?

J.T. It never does.

A.N.W. The divine Mind is against it.

V.C.L. There is to be agreement amongst the saints. The Lord Jesus said, "If two of you shall agree ..." Matthew 18:19. If assembly manhood is in operation, God may change the history of the nation.

J.T. Very good.

J.H.H. There is a verse in Jeremiah 50 which says, "At the sound of the taking of Babylon the earth hath quaked, and the cry is heard among the nations", Jeremiah 50:46. When God is working it may affect the whole earth.

J.T. God has opened up the west for humanity; He has moved westward and His work extends to the Pacific coast.

C.A.M. The political leagues and associations of men are such that prayer is almost impossible. Their

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sessions cannot be opened with prayer because some are heathen.

J.T. That is so; that is a negative remark but very good for it is wise to keep before us that there is nothing for God in that kind of thing. It will come to nothing.

D.Macd. In certain governments prayer is recognized and resorted to at legislative sessions.

J.T. It is good to recognize whatever there is of God and we ought to give thanks for it.

Ques. Should the general principles of Genesis 11 be accepted? It says (verse 8), "And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth. And they left off building the city. Therefore was its name called Babel; because Jehovah there confounded the language of the whole earth. And Jehovah scattered them thence over the face of the whole earth", Genesis 11:8,9.

J.T. That is the principle; God has scattered and divided men into nations and continents. He respects nations and uses them as we could well point out from the Scriptures. The nations are composed of men, and God considers for men.

Rem. That would be confirmed when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Tyre and God said that He would pay him wages. He gave him Egypt, we are told in Ezekiel 29.

J.T. Very good; God ordains the nations; He has divided the human race into nations and He is not giving up that thought. He is going on with it.

S.W. You were speaking of the far eastern nations being held in reserve. Will they be brought into blessing in the assembly's day or will it be later?

J.T. I would keep to what the Scripture says as to the nations. God, having given up Israel, has turned to the nations, but now His work is continuing, to a large degree, among the English-speaking people.

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J.T.Jr. The word was, "Lo, we turn to the nations", Acts 13:46.

S.W. I was thinking of Revelation 21 where it speaks of the heavenly city and goes on to say that the nations shall walk by its light; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory to it. That will include the eastern nations?

J.T. Quite so; "the kings of the earth", Revelation 21:24. The earth is the Lord's and the fulness of it.

A.N.W. The kingdom gospel prior to the setting up of the millennium could hardly go out to the presently christianised countries. Will it not be to the far eastern nations?

J.T. I think so.

A.R. We are exhorted to pray for kings.

J.T. Just so; and some are not yet giving up christianity publicly, whereas Russia is.

E.M. Do you not think that one weakness with the nations is that they are not going on with what God is doing at the moment. Zechariah 8:23 says: "Thus saith Jehovah of hosts: In those days shall ten men take hold, out of all languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you; for we have heard that God is with you", Zechariah 8:23.

J.T. Yes, but we must wait for that. In the meantime God is going on with the nations, not with the Jews.

R.W.S. So that God would utilize armies and navies and military might in His own way to protect the testimony in the nations where He has established it.

J.T. Just so; God has a right to everything on the earth. "The earth is Jehovah's, and the fulness thereof", Psalm 24:1. The fulness would mean all that is good and beneficial and usable. God will take certain of the nations on in the millennium, and we are waiting for that. God will do great things in the seventh

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great day from Adam; God will take it on and there will be wonderful times on the earth.

R.W.S. What impresses me is the great scope of this consideration; how God is using certain nations at the present time and that He has everything available to bring out His perfect ways and thoughts.

J.T. And where nations have given up what they once had, such as Russia has done, God is against that. Russia was a so-called christian nation at one time, but it is not now; it has given up christianity; it is an infidel nation and God is against that.

J.T.Jr. Whereas Matthew brings in the thought of Emmanuel, God with us.

J.T. Exactly; that is what we have in our chapter, too, God with us; because He is with us. God is with His people and even His people who inhabit such countries of which we have been speaking, God is delighting in and blessing His people, and the nations get a certain benefit from that.

A.B.P. Are the blessings outlined in this chapter the result of God being with us?

J.T. I would say that, but what are you alluding to particularly?

A.B.P. The Lord refers to what was said of old to the ancients, but He emphasizes what He is now saying: "But I say unto you".

J.T. We should also notice verse 13: "Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have become insipid, wherewith shall it be salted? It is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot by men". That has not happened yet. Christians are still the salt of the earth; there are those who are deriving certain benefits through the saints; so that God is going on with men and will go on with them until the time comes for His judgment upon them.

R.W.S. Certain institutions which relieve human suffering are prevalent in countries where God is

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feared much more so than in lands where He is ignored and denied.

J.T. Quite so; we can trace these things and see them working out under God for the benefit of man.

V.C.L. The lines seem to be drawn severely; there has been much attempt to christianise China, but it has not been on the line of the assembly.

J.T. Conditions in that country are getting worse and worse; they are worse now than ever before.

V.C.L. Is assembly manhood suggested in the salt? It is an effectual preservative. Any nation having the features of the assembly worked out in it can expect greater preservation than any other nation.

J.T. Quite so, the salt still exists.

R.W.S. Is there a certain kind of kingdom manhood which precedes assembly manhood? Does this chapter bring to light kingdom manhood preparatory to what comes out later in the gospel?

J.T. Tell us what you mean by kingdom manhood.

R.W.S. Persons who obey; who are subject.

J.T. Just so; that is the idea of the kingdom, and that must work out from the gospel.

J.T.Jr. So we get a prudent man in chapter 7:24, who hears the words of Jesus and does them. That would be a kingdom man.

A.B.P. It says in verse 3 of this chapter, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens". And again, in verse 10: "Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens". Is that the kind of man to whom God can commit the kingdom?

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. We frequently connect the kingdom with Peter's line of things. In Acts 10, he is sent to Cornelius; and does he not bring in that kind of manhood there? He tells Cornelius, "I myself also am a man", Acts 10:26.

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and then he speaks of Christ in His manhood here. That came into my mind in connection with kingdom manhood, but would it be right to say that manhood as developed by Paul would be more assembly manhood?

J.T. Reference is being made to two kinds of manhood -- kingdom manhood and assembly manhood, but the true idea of manhood is in Christ, of course, the Man Christ Jesus; manhood is there. The kingdom must come in, in order that there may be subjection and then the assembly is brought in by Paul.

C.A.M. I suppose it was in that way that the thing worked out in the soul of Cornelius. It was the first time he had really heard of true manhood.

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. Do not these verses, which are called the beatitudes, set out the principles and laws of the kingdom?

J.T. Quite so; I suppose we must have the Man first, and then the kingdom to bring in rule, and then we work out from that to the assembly. That is the way the matter works out.

A.N.W. I suppose kingdom manhood is seen in the acceptance of these principles which belong to the kingdom of the heavens. There is no other kingdom which has such principles as these: "Blessed are the poor in spirit ... Blessed they that mourn ... Blessed the meek ... Blessed they who hunger and thirst after righteousness ... Blessed the merciful ... Blessed the pure in heart". There is only one kingdom governed by such principles.

J.T. So that we are brought to the idea of manhood, because we must have man for the assembly; the real thought of manhood is seen in the assembly.

A.E.W. And does the principle of selection come in? It says, "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him; and, having opened his mouth ..."

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It is as though He would not say these things to the crowd.

J.T. That is good; God can do nothing with the crowd, you must bring in the idea of the kingdom, and then manhood, because man is God's idea, it is the Man Christ Jesus.

E.A.L. In Matthew 13:13 it says, "For this cause I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear nor understand", Matthew 13:13.

J.T. Just so. We have come to the idea of the kingdom, and with that you must have rule, for rule is in the kingdom. So the next thing is to see where the idea of the kingdom is to be found, whether the brethren are coming to it. And that brings in manhood which is God's great idea: "Let us make man ... and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. That is the idea. And, of course, we must bring in the Man Christ Jesus.

V.C.L. In 1 Corinthians 15:21, it says, "By man came death, by man also resurrection of those that are dead. For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive", 1 Corinthians 15:21. From that base Paul seems to build the matter of the kingdom and rule going on to God being all in all. It seems as though the manhood of Christ begins everything for God.

J.T. Yes; we must have Man first, in Christ, and then the kingdom and then manhood as in the assembly.

A.B.P. In chapter 11 the Lord says, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest", Matthew 11:28. Is He calling material for the kingdom to Himself?

J.T. I would think that.

A.B.P. Is it not very much like those who were weary under the Saul system and came out to David

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to the cave of Adullam and he became captain over them?

J.T. Quite so.

J.H.H. In chapter 16 the Lord says to Peter, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 16:17. And then He goes on to speak of building the assembly. Do we touch assembly manhood there?

J.T. Just so; only we will come to that later. But I think the brethren will follow what we are saying about Man to begin with, and then the kingdom to bring in rule, and then making way for the assembly, and again manhood in the assembly, because that is the divine thought.

R.W.S. So that this chapter brings in the first of the seven mountains in this book?

J.T. Very good, it is a mountain chapter. We should have the idea of the mountains in our minds in arriving at the assembly.

J.T.Jr. This mountain runs on to the end of chapter 7 where the Lord speaks of a prudent man and a foolish man. The prudent man would be a subject man and represents kingdom manhood whereas the foolish man would be disobedient: "Whoever therefore hears these my words and does them, I will liken him to a prudent man ... . And every one who hears these my words and does not do them, he shall be likened to a foolish man", Matthew 7:24,26.

C.A.M. I suppose this mountain would connect with mount Gerizim, on which the six tribes were to stand and bless the people in connection with the coming into the land in Deuteronomy 27. There were two mountains there, one of blessing and the other a mountain of curse. I was thinking that would connect with the prudent and the foolish. Matthew is very definite as to good and evil. We are either prudent or foolish, blessed or cursed.

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MAN (19)

Matthew 8:1 - 34

J.T. Verse 27 of our chapter contains the expression, "What sort of man is this ... ?" referring to Christ. I thought it would afford a suggestion for us for this reading; that we might have this thought in our minds, that there is no other man like Christ -- "the man Christ Jesus".

J.H.E. Paul speaks of Him as the second Man out of heaven.

J.T. Just so, the first man is of the earth, earthy, the second Man is the Lord out of heaven.

A.N.W. Another statement in the chapter that confirms your thought is the centurion's comment: "For I also am a man under authority".

J.T. He recognized that the Lord was under authority.

S. W. You have in mind the way the Lord did things while here, and the power that was in Him to do things?

J.T. The chapter affords much detail as to what the Lord did while here.

S.W. At the end of chapter 7 it states that He taught as having authority and not as their scribes. He was One with authority.

J.T. So that now He has gone into heaven, angels and principalities being made subject to Him.

F.H.L. Is not this the only kind of manhood which can meet the conditions at the foot of the mountain? There are leprosy and fever and paralysis.

J.T. We might compare it with chapter 5: "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down, his disciples came to him", Matthew 5:1 that is to say, He is here and His disciples are interested in Him and come to Him, so that He can now use them. He is where He can use them, and they

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are where they can be used; which, I suppose, might apply to a time like this, where the Lord can use us. He is ready to use us, and we are here that He might use us. There is much to be done. The eighth chapter refers to this same thing, but it is now at the foot of the mountain: "When he had come down from the mountain". That is where things are now to be done.

A.B.P. Is there a link between this question, "What sort of man is this ... ?", and the question which was asked as to the manna in Exodus when the children of Israel asked, "What is it?" Exodus 16:15.

J.T. Yes. So that the word 'manna' is peculiar; it means, "What is it?"

A.B.P. I suppose there was no answer to that question until the Lord Jesus was here.

J.T. Just so; the Lord has been here, He has come down from heaven; but He has gone up into heaven, angels and principalities being made subject to Him. And now we are here and we have come together from different places, from business and from our homes and the Lord is ready to help us.

J.T.Jr. Do we each one have to reach the point where we say, "Thou art able to cleanse me"? Does each have to take that ground?

J.T. That is the first thing to be considered. We need to be cleansed.

J.T.Jr. Though a leper, this man has something positive about him; he does not stay away from the Lord; he comes up to Him and does Him homage, and says, "Thou art able to cleanse me".

J.T. And so this is a subject we all need to consider. The Lord could say elsewhere, "He that is washed all over needs not to wash save his feet, but is wholly clean", John 13:10. The cleansing here is not that, it is full cleansing.

J.T.Jr. Your allusion to John 13 would mean that we are to wash one another's feet?

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J.T. Just so, but here it is full cleansing. But I suppose the inquiry should be ever with us as to whether we are in need of feet washing; needing not to wash save our feet, being wholly clean. But that is not the point here; this is full cleansing. The leper came to Him and, said, "Lord, if thou wilt, thou art able to cleanse me". There was need of full cleansing. He was a leper and there is nothing more loathsome, I suppose, than leprosy.

S.C.M. Is this initial cleansing? Would this be like the forgiveness of sins, making one ready, for the gift of the Spirit?

J.T. It is initial; just so. Another thing is to be noted: "And behold, a leper came up to him and did him homage, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou art able to cleanse me. And he stretched out his hand and touched him". The same kind of thing occurs in Mark's gospel. The thought is that the Lord handled him freely.

A.R. Does that bring out the greatness of the humanity of the Lord Jesus that He could freely handle a leper and yet not become defiled?

J.T. Just so, no one but He could do this. But He did it well; He did it fully, He stretched out His hand and touched him; it was a real cleansing action.

C.A.M. Did what was recorded in the books of Moses as to cleansing of leprosy await the coming in of Christ? There is an allusion here to the gift which Moses ordained; it is to be given as a testimony. Does not that shew that the details in the books of Moses awaited the coming of this glorious Person?

J.T. Just so. It is a striking illustration of typical teaching; the allusion is to the typical teaching of the Old Testament.

V.C.L. Job spoke of washing: "If I washed myself with snow-water, and cleansed my hands in purity ..." Job 9:30 -- that would not be enough; he wished

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for a man that would put his hand upon him. All awaited the incoming of Christ, a Man who by putting His hand upon him could cleanse him.

J.T. So that the typical teaching of the Old Testament points to Christ, and, of course, the assembly. And we might say that all believers are in mind; God had them all in His mind, but awaited Christ; the Man must come in. It is said, in Genesis, "There was no man", Genesis 2:5. But now there is a Man, and He is able to meet every situation.

G.H.S.P. Is there a link between the authority of the Lord, referred to in this chapter, and the word as to man in Genesis, "Let them have dominion"? Genesis 1:26.

J.T. Very good; the word is, "Let us make man", the word includes both the man and the woman.

G.H.S.P. Is the moral power to meet every crisis in the prime thought of manhood according to God, set out supremely in Christ, but to be seen now in measure in the saints, by the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so; it is a remarkable thing that Adam is not referred to immediately; it is, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. The man and the woman are in mind. "Let them have dominion".

R.W.S. In the last verse of chapter 7 it is said, "Jesus had finished these words", Matthew 7:28. Now, in this chapter it seems to be a matter of what He is doing; and when we come to chapter 11 it speaks of having finished commanding His disciples. Have we come to a section of the book where things are done -- where they are finished, and does that have an answer in the assembly today?

J.T. Just so; chapter 8 begins the doings of the Lord Jesus; what He was here to do, as having come down from heaven. So that the word is, "And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his doctrine, for he taught them as having authority, and not as their scribes", Matthew 7:28,29.

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Then chapter 8 begins: "And when he had come down from the mountain, great crowds followed him". He was here to do things; He had come down from the mountain. It is a great fact that He was here to do things where things are to be done, where the need is.

R.W.S. And is there some correspondence now with what the Lord did then, in the way things are done in the assembly? It says in chapter 10:1, "And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness", Matthew 10:1.

J.T. "Every disease and every bodily weakness". That is remarkable. What a time for doing things! One is impressed with that, that it is every bodily weakness and every disease.

J.S. So that in the case of the leper the Lord Jesus is willing and able.

A.N.W. When we come to the assembly apostle, the word is, "God wrought no ordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even napkins or aprons were brought from his body and put upon the sick, and the diseases left them, and the wicked spirits went out", Acts 19:11.

J.T. So that the book of Acts, in a way, links peculiarly with this chapter, because the Lord had come down to do things: So the leper says "Lord, if thou wilt, thou art able to cleanse me. And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, I will; be cleansed. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed". I think that is beautiful, the thing was done.

Ques. Is this chapter not included in Peter's word in Acts 10:38, where it says, "Jesus who was of Nazareth: how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went through all Quarters doing good, and healing all that were under the power of the devil, because God was with him"? Acts 10:38.

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J.T. Just so. I suppose the Acts must correspond with the gospels and particularly with this chapter, for it calls attention to where the Lord had come to; He has come down to where the need is. He had gone up, in chapter 5, and His disciples came to Him, but now He has come down and they are with Him.

A.R. So that the book of Acts begins with reference to the gospel, "concerning all things which Jesus began both to do and to teach", Acts 1:1.

J.T. The correspondence is very striking. What the Lord began to do and to teach, the disciples carried on.

S.C.M. Are they not accredited by the Lord Himself of doing greater things because He was to go to the Father?

J.T. The Father is the Source of everything, and going to the Father would make all that available because the Spirit of God came down. It is the coming down of the Spirit that makes everything from the Father available.

G.H. John had a great impression of what Jesus had done when he wrote, at the end of his gospel, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25.

J.T. Wonderful! "One by one" is excellent! They were done well; they are done carefully; time was taken to do them with care "one by one".

R.W.S. And they were done in the presence of the greatest opposition, for we have often had our attention called to the twos in Matthew; there were two possessed by demons, for instance. Are we not proving today that things are being done amongst

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the saints in spite of public opposition of the enemy?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Is there a principle in the word: "Shew thyself to the priest"? When Paul was converted he had to wait for Ananias to come to him. Is there a principle in that for us, that persons who get converted are to have to do with the Lord's people?

J.T. Very good; there is surely a priest available at all times; wherever a priest is needed he is available amongst the Lord's people. The Lord's people are down here where the need is; Jesus is in heaven now. He was down here, according to this chapter, but He is up there now and the saints are here. So that the question is whether or not we are doing things that are to be done.

J.T.Jr. We are considering the subject of Man, but the Lord told the cleansed leper, "See thou tell no man". Over against that he is told to show himself to the priest. I suppose the priest would represent what might help; the priest would be the one to see about the matter.

J.T. Just so; and do you not think that there are priests in this room now?

J.T.Jr. Well, you feel that there is power available amongst the saints to meet matters that arise.

J.T. It is for each one to ask himself, Am I a priest? The Lord Jesus has made us priests unto God; He has made us that.

Rem. Persons who are converted should commend themselves to the brethren. It is not enough to say that one is converted; his life should commend itself so that the brethren can see that there is something real there.

F.H.L. Is there the suggestion here that power is exercised at the foot of the mountain, which would be a general idea; then in Capernaum, which would by city-wise; then in the house, thus having its bearing on every sphere?

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J.T. Well, we are coming to that; we hope that the chapter will open up to us so that we shall see the character of the work that was done at the foot of the mountain. Jesus went up to the top of the mountain in chapter 5, and the disciples came to Him, but now they are available to Him in the sphere where the need is.

F.H.L. So that, starting with the cleansing of the leper, the Lord's service extends to the house and to the city to include the local position.

E.A.L. The leper says, "Lord, if thou wilt, thou art able to cleanse me". He does not ask just to be cured, but for his uncleanness to be taken away.

J.T. So that the Lord says, "I will; be cleansed. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed". It was immediate, he had not to wait for it. And then Jesus says to him, "See thou tell no man, but go shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift which Moses ordained, for a testimony to them". The Lord would not have the thing publicised. Something wonderful had been done, but the man was to show himself to the priest, the priest having been appointed of God for this very purpose. "Shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift which Moses ordained, for a testimony to them". So that there must be an offering in relation to this.

A.B.P. It would seem from Luke 4:27 that the number of lepers that were cleansed in Israel was few. The word is, "There were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed but Naaman the Syrian", Luke 4:27. The "testimony" referred to in our chapter would be to the fact that Jesus was here?

J.T. Just so.

S.W. Would you say that the Lord was working on individual lines here?

J.T. What is your point as to individuals?

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S. W. Well, it says that great crowds followed Him, but it is one man that is cleansed. This leper singles himself out from the crowds; and then there is just the one man healed in Capernaum.

Ques. How does the offering of the gift apply today?

J.T. The Lord said to him, "See thou tell no man, but go, shew thyself to the priest". I think the Lord was showing that there was something in judaism that could be used. The Lord told the man that it was there; God had placed it there and it was to be recognised.

Rem. The Lord acknowledged the provision of God that was there.

J.T. That is right and He would say for the man to use what was there. God had placed it there. In christianity the priest is available; it is very wonderful that we are priests, and we are to be used.

Ques. How does the offering of the gift come in?

J.T. If we receive something, surely there would be some acknowledgement of it. Mr. Darby has said that God hates an empty vessel. So that not one of us here today should be empty; we should have something. We have the Spirit, for instance, and many other things, and we ought to be conscious that we have them, so that they are to be used.

Rem. It is very challenging that God hates an empty vessel!

J.T. It is; we are not to appear before God empty. We have the Spirit of God. "Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", John 3:3 it says. We must be born again, and born of water and of the Spirit. So that we receive the Spirit; God has given the Spirit to us and we ought to be usable.

A.B.P. In Leviticus 14, to which the Lord referred, the man is secured. All this fits in with our subject of Man. It says, "And the priest that cleanseth him shall present the man that is to be cleansed and those things before Jehovah, at the entrance of the tent of meeting", Leviticus 14:11.

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J.T. So that there is a system available, and that is the idea that is now before us, that there is a system available. And so the Lord told the man to go to the priest and offer the gift that Moses directed. Moses represents the sovereignty of God in providing what is needed.

S.C.M. Naaman was directed to Elisha the prophet, but he was hesitant about getting cleansed in the Jordan. He had to come down and accept Jehovah's way and his flesh became as a little child's.

F.N.W. This man came to the Lord in a seemly way; he did Him homage.

J.T. Just so, he was respectful, which is another matter of importance. We are to respect the Lord and the system that He has set up here on earth to be usable in such cases.

A.R. Does the cleansed man in Leviticus 14 become a priest himself? He was to be anointed with blood and also with oil, on his right ear, his right thumb and his right foot, and the oil was also to be put upon his head.

J.T. Well, that is good; the whole man is recovered for God.

A.N.W. Is not the gift the evidence that absolute cleansing had been effected? There is nothing more to be done.

J.T. "Immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus says to him ... go, shew thyself to the priest". He was a cleansed man, but the Lord indicates that there is a system here that is usable by us.

A.P. The leper and the centurion were able to discern who the Lord was. Does that suggest that there was a previous work, that new birth had been effected in them?

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J.T. Just so.

G.H.S.P. In connection with all this work of cleansing and recovery, is there not an indication of the value that is placed on persons? In chapter 12, where the Lord heals a case of need, He says, "How much better then is a man than a sheep!" Matthew 12:12

J.T. Very good; one has often thought of that, "How much better then is a man than a sheep!" Have you more to say?

G.H.S.P. I feel that it is a thing we do well to retain in mind, for in the Lord's own actions here He had persons in mind, and ought we not, in all our assembly matters, have the value of men according to God in mind, that such might be secured and made available in the assembly?

J.T. I think that is important. It is noticeable that in Acts 1:15 it speaks of the crowd of names who were together. Then in chapter 4:4 we are told that the number of the men had become about five thousand. The word men is in mind; it is a question of securing men.

V.C.L. One man is cleansed at the beginning of our chapter. At the end of the chapter the Lord seems to give an object lesson that two healed men are better than a whole herd of swine. Should we not have in mind that a person redeemed by the Lord Jesus and indwelt by the Spirit is one of the most valuable things on earth?

J.T. Just so; whilst we would hesitate to say anything that is derogatory as to women, they are not as valuable as men. Men are of greater value.

F.H.L. In chapter 14:21 it says that the number of those that had eaten was about "five thousand men, besides women and children", Matthew 14:21 The feature of manhood is carried through.

J.T. Quite so.

F.H.L. In Luke 17 the Lord got His tithe of the lepers; one returned to give glory to God. Was

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that a question of obedience It says that "as they were going they were cleansed", Luke 17:14. Only one returned.

J.T. Here it is immediate cleansing. Verse 3 says, "Immediately his leprosy was cleansed". But then there is the added thought as to the priest. Surely there must be a priest. Others are to be usable in addition to the Lord Himself. He has men, down here to be used. He is in heaven; He has gone into heaven, angels and principalities being made subject to Him. But the Spirit of God is down here to carry on the work amongst men.

R.W.S. So that the system is down here operating in relation to what the Lord is doing. You used the word 'system', and I am enjoying that word because it must bear upon the assembly.

J.T. That is just what I was thinking. The assembly is the system; we need not be afraid to use the word 'system' because the assembly is a system. The instruction that we have in the book of Hebrews indicates what there is to be done and the persons who may do it.

A.R. Was the system working at Corinth when the incestuous man was withdrawn from in chapter 5? And in the second epistle when Paul tells them to assure him of their love?

J.T. Quite so; the system was working, the Lord has placed us here to be at work.

V.C.L. Is the gift that is offered really ourselves? In Romans 12, which underlies our assembly service, the apostle says, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, ... to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God", Romans 12:1. The Lord Jesus offered Himself by the eternal Spirit. Should we not offer ourselves altogether?

J.T. Very good. You have nothing more valuable really than yourself

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T.E.H. Is that not the completion of David's exercise in Psalm 51? He says, "Lord, open my lips, and my mouth shall declare thy praise", Psalm 51:15.

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Did the centurion in this chapter perform an intercessory service?

J.T. It says, "And when he had entered into Capernaum, a centurion came to him, beseeching him, and saying, Lord, my servant lies paralytic in the house, suffering grievously. And Jesus says to him, I will come and heal him". Note the emphatic 'I'. It is beautiful. "I will come and heal him". He will do it immediately.

Rem. The centurion was interceding for someone else.

J.T. But it was his servant.

Ques. Does that give us ground to speak to the Lord about others who are in need?

J.T. Quite so; surely our prayers ought to be full of that kind of thing, interceding for others. And I believe that it is so. "Brethren, pray for us", 1 Thessalonians 5:25, 2 Thessalonians 3:1 Paul says.

A.N.W. Is not his intercessory word a model for us? He lays the case simply and briefly before One who can attend to the whole matter. "Lord, my servant lies paralytic in the house, suffering grievously".

J.T. And he knows how the Lord can do it: "Only speak a word". The Lord is in heaven now but He can effect healing here in New York by a word. Wonderful thought! "Only speak a word, and my servant shall be healed". So that we can count on the Lord to act from heaven. He has gone to heaven but He has the means down here with which to act.

A.P. The centurion was brief, the request was very short.

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Ques. He came beseeching. Should we not have more of that quality in our prayers, beseeching God?

J.T. Well, quite so; heaven is listening to us. The idea of intercession is a great matter. The Spirit of God is here interceding for the saints with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Rem. If in our prayers we entered into the feelings of God concerning men they would be more feelingly expressed.

J.T. I believe that the word 'soul' refers to feeling, the power of feeling is in the soul.

S.C.M. Philip found Nathanael and brought him to Jesus. Should we not have power by the Spirit to influence others and bring them into the good of things which we are enjoying?

J.T. Just so.

A.R. We should intercede on the principle of faith, should we not? The Lord says of the centurion: "Not even in Israel have I found so great faith".

J.T. But let us not pass by the wonderment of Jesus. Think of the Lord Himself wondering about things! The centurion had said, "For I also am a man under authority, having under me soldiers, and I say to this one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my bondman, Do this, and he does it. And when Jesus heard it, he wondered". And so He says, "Verily I say unto you, Not even in Israel have I found so great faith". It is a remarkable thing!

A.N.W. Do you think we have wondered enough about the work of God? If the Lord Jesus wondered there must be something very wonderful in it.

J.T. It is wonderful, and particularly so that it should be said of the Lord that He wondered.

A.B.P. Was it that the centurion apprehended the Lord's place in the economy?

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J.T. Well, I suppose so. The Lord's people have adopted the word 'economy'. It is a system of things into which divine Persons have come and I believe the Lord saw that in some measure it was apprehended. When He heard it He wondered and said, "Verily I say unto you, Not even in Israel have I found so great faith". You marvel that the Lord wondered about it and that there was such wonderful faith at that particular time.

A.B.P. A man without faith would be inclined to speak about being in authority. This man, in speaking of being under authority must have understood that the Lord was vested with all the power of God to do good.

C.A.M. The Lord wondered at the work of God, did He not?

J.T. Just so; He wondered at what the man said; when He heard it He wondered.

C.A.M. What a matter it should be for all of us to think that God's own work gives Him these feelings of delight!

J.H.E. In Genesis 24 the servant was astonished at Rebecca.

J.T. It is the same thing exactly; he was astonished at Rebecca. I have often thought of that.

R.D.G. Would the Lord's response to the faith of this centurion be parallel to the healing of the paralytic? It was not the faith of the paralytic.

J.T. It is much the same. In a sense the Lord Himself had effected the thing, although He wonders at the work of divine Persons. And we are all His workmanship as in this room today; He could say it is His own work. That is very precious to think of, but the Lord is working and whatever any one of us does, in faith, it is the fruit of the Lord's work. It is God that does it.

E.A.L. The chapter seems to progress; the leper came to Him; the servant was healed through the

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faith of the centurion; and then, when the Lord went into Peter's house, He saw Peter's mother-in-law and healed her.

J.T. It says, "And when Jesus had come to Peter's house, he saw his mother-in-law laid down and in a fever; and he touched her hand, and the fever left her". The work is progressing in all the sections of the chapter. Chapters 8 and 9 show how real was the work of Christ down here. It is to bring out the volume of it; everyone that was ill was cured, according to verse 16. And the work of God is going on today because the Spirit of God is down here and the Spirit is using persons.

G.H.S.P. Does the reference to the Lord touching her hand stress the thought that things are to be done by healed persons?

J.T. Very good; things are to be done. The hand would suggest that. And the Lord has persons available to serve -- there are thousands that He is using. It is wonderful to be amongst those through whom the Lord is working.

A.B.P. Would there be a suggestion in this incident that, in the house, spiritual illnesses are to be discerned and healed in their early stages before they become serious like the case of the centurion's servant, or like the leper?

J.T. Just so.

R.D.G. It is interesting that no one asked the Lord to heal Peter's mother-in-law. He did it.

J.T. Well, the mother-in-law may be a difficult person, but the Lord takes account of that. He touched her hand Himself, and she arose and served Him. It does not say that she served those in the house, she served the Lord; so that He had response to His work.

Ques. If there is something not right in our homes would we not be exercised about it so that the Lord can come in and heal?

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J.T. He does, He understands and does things of Himself without being asked because He is God. He must have done things of Himself to make the universe. He did it Himself.

Ques. But we must be exercised ourselves, do you not think?

J.T. Quite so, but there was no one exercised about the universe but God. God made it Himself. He does things Himself, and we can count on that. But then He is ready to do things because He is asked to do them. We know that we have the petitions which we desire of Him.

G.H.S.P. That thought comes very beautifully into this chapter, "Himself took our infirmities and bore our diseases".

A.N.W. I suppose it is so that a feverish condition would disrupt service to Him.

J.T. I am sure it would.

V.C.L. Would you think that if the saints are constantly in our houses anything feverish or out of the way is liable to be quickly discerned. Would you recommend the safety of having our houses open to the saints so that nothing might be gaining headway that the enemy could use?

J.T. It is a great comfort that the Lord does things of Himself. But at the same time He does things because we ask Him. It is most wonderful to think of this.

J.T.Jr. Peter's service would be in mind. Peter's house is mentioned; it is not anyone's house, so that Peter's service is to be unhindered

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MAN (20)

Matthew 9:1 - 38.

J.T. It might be helpful to refer to certain characteristics of the gospels at this time. I would say that Matthew, with which we are now dealing, and in which we find the writer's name, is characterised by the volume of work done by the Lord, so that in the chapter before us we get a great number of persons healed or relieved. Luke presents grace, not volume exactly, but grace, quality; John is love, again quality, but love; and then Mark is skill, the skill with which things are done. We are dealing with Matthew at this time and the volume of work that is done, the plenitude of it. But it is well to keep in mind that certain features mark the gospels. Matthew is volume or quantity, Luke the grace feature, John the love side and Mark the skill which entered into what was done. But, as I said, what we are dealing with now is the plentifulness of the work; how much the Lord did and that He did it well.

C.A.M. Would the plentifulness of what is done connect with the thought of the kingdom of the heavens? You have often stressed the idea of the expanse and the kingdom of the heavens is prominent in Matthew.

J.T. Yes, the volume; how immense it is! That is what we are engaged with now, the immensity of the work that the Lord did.

S.W. Since Matthew is known to us as the assembly gospel, would this not indicate the amount of work to be done by persons in the assembly?

J.T. Yes; the amount of work; not that we would overlook the quality of it, for the quality is in Luke, the grace side, and love is seen in John and skill in Mark, but it is the volume in Matthew. And so we

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have here in this chapter, "And going on board the ship, he passed over and came to his own city. And behold, they brought to him a paralytic, laid upon a bed; and Jesus, seeing their faith, said to the paralytic, Be of good courage, child; thy sins are forgiven. And behold, certain of the scribes said to themselves, This man blasphemes. And Jesus, seeing their thoughts, said, Why do ye think evil things in your hearts? For which is easier: to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins, (then he says to the paralytic,) Rise up, take up thy bed and go to thy house".

And then, later, it says, "And Jesus, passing on thence, saw a man sitting at the tax-office, called Matthew, and says to him, Follow me. And he rose up and followed him. And it came to pass, as he lay at table in the house, that behold, many tax-gatherers and sinners came and lay at table with Jesus and his disciples. And the Pharisees seeing it, said to his disciples, Why does your teacher eat with tax-gatherers and sinners? But Jesus hearing it, said, They that are strong have not need of a physician, but those that are ill. But go and learn what that is -- I will have mercy and not sacrifice; for I have not come to call righteous men but sinners. Then come to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees often fast, but thy disciples fast not? And Jesus said to them, Can the sons of the bridechamber mourn so long as the bridegroom is with them. But days will come when the bridegroom will have been taken away from them, and then they will fast. But no one puts a patch, of new cloth on an old garment, for its filling up takes from the garment and a worse rent takes place. Nor do men put new wine into old skins, otherwise the skins burst and the wine is poured out, and the skins will be destroyed; but they put new wine into new skins, and both are preserved together".

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I just take liberty to read all this so that we might get these thoughts that we have already indicated, and especially the volume of things that the Lord did. Matthew, as we have said, records the volume of it.

J.T.Jr. It says, in verse 37, that the harvest is great. And then in verse 35 there is a repetition of what is said in chapter 4:23, "And Jesus went round the whole of Galilee, teaching in their synagogues", Matthew 4:23. The whole of Galilee would suggest the great extent of the work.

J.T. That is what I thought: the whole of Galilee.

J.T.Jr. And then it says also, "And Jesus went round all the cities and the villages". The repetition, I suppose, would emphasize the extent of what was done.

J.T. But the thing must be well done, too; and livingly done, and that is what John and the other writers have in mind.

A.N.W. Verse 8 confirms the greatness of the work in a striking way with the extraordinary statement: "But the crowds seeing it, were in fear, and glorified God who gave such power to men".

S.C.M. Verse 16 of chapter 8, says, "And when the evening was come, they brought to him many possessed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all that were ill", Matthew 8:16. I was thinking of the word 'all', and also of the evening; the Lord was never too tired to do a good work.

J.T. He worked late into the evening. We may not like to work late, but the Lord has set us an example.

C.F.E. Did all such cases await the incoming of the Lord Jesus?

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J.T. It all awaited His coming, but the work that He did was also to be done by others; He appointed the twelve, and then the seventy, and then according to Acts, Paul and others.

G.H.S.P. Is there a sort of climax to this process of healing in the end of the chapter when it refers to "every disease and every bodily weakness"? Is it as though the output of power is only restricted by the cases that were to be met? Is it at all similar to the service of the Spirit typified in 2 Kings by the pouring of the oil which only ceased when all the vessels are full?

J.T. Just so, and so they were in fear, it says, "and glorified God who gave such power to men".

E.A.L. Does chapter 11 also show the great work the Lord did when John the baptist sent to ask if He was the Christ? The Lord answered, "Go, report to John what ye hear and see. Blind men see and lame walk; lepers are cleansed, and deaf hear; and dead are raised, and poor have glad tidings preached to them: and blessed is whosoever shall not be offended in me", Matthew 11:4 - 6.

J.T. Yes; the Lord answered John by calling attention to the volume of work that was being done.

Ques. Does this reference to the Lord doing something in His own city suggest that He was identified with that locality?

J.T. It is called His own city, which is remarkable. It was His local city; you might say, His local meeting..

Ques. Later, it says about Capernaum that it had been raised up to heaven. Is that because the Lord was there?

J.T. Just so.

A.B.P. In this first section of this chapter there is the suggestion that, in principle, heaven has come to earth: "The Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins".

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Is that not an important matter, and is it not intended that that power should remain on earth, later to be found in the assembly?

J.T. Yes; the Spirit of God has come down so that it should be here.

A.R. Is the volume of work seen in Matthew also seen in the Acts where three thousand were converted at one time?

J.T. And later the number was five thousand; five thousand men.

R.D.G. There seem to be about eleven different situations with which the Lord deals in this chapter.

J.T. Very good; think of the volume of the Lord's work!

F.H.L. Referring to the power of the Spirit working in men today, is it not interesting that Luke speaks of the Lord Jesus in that way: "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings to the poor", Luke 4:18.

J.T. Yes; "because he has anointed me to preach".

A.R. Do you think that in our day it is a question of quality more so than quantity?

J.T. Well, much of the profession does not mind about quality; but we are to be concerned as to it. There is much to be done but things that are done should be done well.

A.R. Well, did you have in mind that Luke and John give the quality?

J.T. That is quite right but Mark is quality too; he would insist on things being done well; being done with skill.

A.N.W. In the last parable of Matthew 13 the Lord likens the kingdom to a seine which is cast into the sea and gathers together of every kind. Might that cover what you are saying regarding the volume? But it says further, "Having drawn up on the shore and sat down, they gathered the good into vessels and cast the worthless out", Matthew 13:48.

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Might that apply to the latter day?

J.T. Yes; the good is gathered into vessels, meaning assemblies. Assembly order is to be insisted upon among the saints.

S.W. The Lord seems to have a deep concern about the volume of work to be done, for immediately following this chapter He chooses out persons to carry on this work. The twelve are chosen. Would they be the nucleus of the assembly?

J.T. The twelve represent the administrative system.

J.T.Jr. We get the number of the names in the Acts as being about one hundred and twenty. Should we be affected to think that each one of us is part of this great system which is to have a definite number; there are to be a definite number in the assembly.

J.T. It is a matter with God to have numbers and every person to be mentioned. The work is wonderful and it is done skilfully, but the volume is great, too.

Rem. The apostle John says, at the close of his gospel, "This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his witness is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:24,25.

J.T. They were done one by one, also, and yet the world itself could not contain the record; only a divine thought could bring that forward. We may not be able to understand it, literally, but it is so according to God.

Rem. It says that when the queen of Sheba came to Solomon, "There came no more such abundance of spices as those which the queen of Sheba gave", 1 Kings 10:10.

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Mention is made of the quantity, but it surpassed all other for quality.

J.T.Jr. The whole idea in the chapter referred to is to bring out the greatness of Solomon's system, and it is in keeping with what we are saying. The queen of Sheba says, "Happy are thy men!" 1 Kings 10:8.

V.C.L. Although the Lord does so great a volume of work, the quality of it is maintained. The matter of sins coming in shows it was not just meeting outward need. The Lord says: "Which is easier: to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Rise up and walk?". Would it seem as though every one was dealt with fully, an inward as well as an outward healing?

J.T. The great thing that comes out there is that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins. "Power on earth" is the point. The Lord had that power.

A.B.P. Would that help us in matters which come up amongst us? The thing is to get at the under-lying moral issues.

J.T. Now explain what you mean by the word 'moral'. It is much used, but may not be understood.

A.B.P. Well, this person was not only ill but along with that there was a state of soul which accounted for it, and the reason appears to be under-lying sins which connect with a moral state.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. There is a difference between the idea of sins and sin, as dealt with in the epistle to Romans. Is this difference seen in the cases of the paralytic and the leper; the paralytic's case is sins, the leper's case is more a question of sin. It says in chapter 8:3, "And he stretched out his hand and touched him, saying, I will; be cleansed", Matthew 8:3. It is the state there, sin; but in this case it is a question of sins.

A.N.W. Is it not true that sin is never forgiven? Sins are forgiven, but never sin.

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J.T. I think that is right. This chapter deals with sins.

E.E.H. Is sin the root principle? Sins are committed, they relate to our acts.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. Romans 8 says that God has condemned sin in the flesh. I do not think that it is ever said to be forgiven.

J.T.Jr. The sins of persons are forgiven but sin is condemned; it is not forgiven.

A.N.W. Romans 8 seems to make it plain that God having sent His Son in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh.

J.T. I go fully with what you say as to sin and sins, but I am thinking of another verse later in the chapter; verse 10.

A.N.W. Perhaps I could read verse 9 also, to connect with it: "But ye are not in flesh but in Spirit, if indeed God's Spirit dwell in you; but if any one has not the Spirit of Christ he is not of him: but if Christ be in you, the body is dead on account of sin, but the spirit life on account of righteousness", Romans 8:9,10.

J.T. Sin is the real issue there. I suppose we might proceed with our chapter. It says, in verse 9: "And Jesus, passing on thence, saw a man sitting at the tax-office, called Matthew, and says to him, Follow me. And he rose up and followed him. And it came to pass, as he lay at table in the house, that behold, many tax-gatherers and sinners came and lay at table with Jesus and his disciples. And the Pharisees seeing it, said to his disciples, Why does your teacher eat with tax-gatherers and sinners? But Jesus hearing it, said, They that are strong have not need of a physician, but those that are ill. But go and learn what that is -- I will have mercy and not sacrifice; for I have not come to call righteous men but sinners". He was here to call sinners,

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showing the volume of work that was in mind. It was to call sinners to repentance; not one sinner but sinners, without any number being given.

A.B.P. Terrible thing that the Lord should say to persons to go and learn! In chapter 11, it is, "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me", Matthew 11:29.

J.T. Yes; the Lord had to say to them to go; they had to act. Such as the Pharisees have to learn themselves and go to do it.

A.R. Matthew records his own conversion, working out the truth in his own house. It says, "And it came to pass as he lay at table in the house ..." He does not call it his own house, though Luke tells us it was Matthew's house. And many tax-gatherers and sinners came and lay at table with Jesus and His disciples.

J.T. Showing the volume of what was done, as we have been saying. It was the many; the number of persons involved.

A.N.W. Evangelistic Luke says that he made a great entertainment; that is the side he stresses.

J.T. Yes; Luke is evangelistic.

J.H.E. When the Lord told the Pharisees to go and learn, He referred to Hosea 6:6, "For I delight in loving-kindness, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt-offerings". Had they known God they would have understood.

J.T. And so He adds that He had not come to call righteous men but sinners. Tax-gatherers and sinners are put together as if they were equally in disrepute. Matthew calls himself a tax-gatherer. He was not ashamed to say it because he had been called out from it.

E.M. The Lord quotes: "I will have mercy and not sacrifice". In order that God could show mercy, His sacrifice was necessary.

R.W.S. Are we not, in some sense, faced with volume as well as quality in our day? We are not

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to underestimate what there is. I am thinking of the volume of ministry that there is and the quality, too. There seems to be a general consolidation of the truth taking place universally. Is that not a great matter?

J.T. I am sure it is. We get some fairly large meetings, but we also have order in them. Looseness is not allowed; order is insisted upon. And God would have that. And in our local meetings the Lord helped us to see that about fifty is a proper size for a meeting.

A.N.W. We have been impressed to see that the size of a local meeting stands in relation to the cup.

J.T.Jr. The cup determines the workable size of a meeting.

Ques. Fifty would be the thought in numbers, but there is also to be the quality of material, would you not say?

J.T. Well, if the meeting becomes large, we should consider getting another meeting room. That is the way the meetings have increased in number.

Ques. Is there such a thing as a workable number?

J.T. I think fifty is a workable number. The Lord said to His disciples, "Make them sit down in companies by fifties", Luke 9:14.

Ques. That would be a maximum, but what is a workable minimum?

J.T. Oh, that would be two or three; as we get in Matthew 18:20, "Where two or three are gathered ...".

Ques. Well, would two be a workable number?

J.T. "Two or three"; two may be used, or three may be used. The truth is set out in Matthew, the assembly gospel. It shows that the assembly position may be held by two or three.

A.N.W. Well are we doing right in our local area to continue with fourteen breaking bread?

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J.T. You are as near right as any meeting in the city.

Ques. Would two or three be sufficient to carry on the service of God on Lord's day morning?

J.T. Certainly, two or three can carry on at any time.

Ques. That would mean that some brothers would take part more than once in the meeting. Is that in order?

J.T. Quite in order; if there is only one brother, God will hear him; and whoever may be present will hear him. It is a question of speaking and hearing. It is quite right to hold to the thought of two or three. Matthew 18:20 speaks of two or three "gathered together unto my name", and the Lord says, "there am I in the midst of them". It is not simply in the midst, but in the midst of them; in the midst of the two or three.

Ques. Is it in order for a brother to take part more than once in the meeting on Lord's day morning?

J.T. Why not? God will listen to him; if he is a priest God will listen to him.

A.P. There is a meeting where soon there will be but two sisters left. Would it be possible for them to continue?

J.T. They could meet and converse with one another.

A.R. There are localities where there were only sisters for some time and they came together and laid the table each Lord's day. If no brother came they did not break bread, but the position was held.

J.T. It is a day of small things and we must make the most of the small things.

T.V.D. Where few have carried on in faith the Lord has usually honoured it by adding to the numbers.

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J.T. Just so; God will increase us if we are ready for it.

V.C.L. Although it is a day of small things the truth has come more clearly to us in relation to the sonship of Christ and as to the Holy Spirit, and we have been preserved from serious division. Is that not because the saints have become more established in the truth, leading to greater unity?

J.T. And, as we have said already, where two or three are gathered together in His name the Lord is in the midst of them. That is a great matter and it bears upon what we are saying.

A.B.P. In thinking of the great mercy that has been shown, should not our attitude be one of humility? Ezra said, "And now for a little space there hath been favour from Jehovah our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage", Ezra 9:8. Should not that be our attitude in relation to the present period of favour?

J.T. Just so.

Ques. The Lord being in the midst would add to the position, would it not? Nebuchadnezzar said that he beheld a fourth in the fiery furnace and that He was like the Son of God.

J.T. Our dear brother Mr. Pellatt, whom some of us will have known said that there were five at a certain meeting. Upon inquiry he explained that there were four brothers and sisters and the Lord Himself was there. "There am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20.

F.H.L. The promise to Philadelphia is that the door will not be shut because there is a little strength. Does that link with Matthew 18?

J.T. Just so.

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MAN (21)

Matthew 9:1 - 38.

J.T. This chapter was read at our last meeting but it has been thought well to read it again. We noticed last time that Matthew shows the great volume of work that is done. And there is still much to be done. You have had much to do since you came here. Do you feel encouraged?

Rem. Yes, indeed; we were saying recently that the christian has no time to relax. Would that fit in with what you have in mind?

J.T. Exactly. I suppose we might compare the Lord's own life in that respect, His work, and what He did.

Ques. And Paul, and J.N.D., and others?

J.T. Indeed; very good.

A.N.W. The question has been asked, What is the difference between relaxing and what the Lord had in mind when He said, "Come ye yourselves apart ... and rest a little", Mark 6:31. We need balance between not relaxing and coming apart and resting awhile; whatever the Lord had in mind as to it.

A.R. You mentioned recently that there is a difference between a holiday and a holy day. We may be inclined to move about on holiday.

J.T. What do you say about that?

A.R. Well, it seems to be important that we should make a difference. I suppose we should be on holy days all the time.

A.B.P. Should the believer accustom himself to relax by casting all his cares upon Him who careth for us?

J.T. Very good, the scripture referred to would show that the Lord was caring for the disciples: "Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place and rest a little".

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That would show that He cared for them.

E.A.L. At the end of Matthew 11 we have the Lord saying, "Come to me, all ye who labour and are burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls; for my yoke is easy, and my burden is light", Matthew 11:29,30

J.T. There are many who are burdened on account of moral circumstances, not simply physical, but moral.

V.C.L. Does christian manhood, which is before us, involve being relieved of the burden of sin and being "strong in the Lord, and in the might of his strength"? Ephesians 6:10. Are we not to be vigilant in the service of God as well as being vigilant lest we be carried away by the wiles of the flesh? I am thinking of standing for the service of God, and that is to go on all the time, in some measure.

J.T. I think that the profession, generally, is inclined to think of the physical side; not so much the moral side as the physical side and the distinction that religious activity gives to man.

A.R. That verse just quoted from Matthew 11 would have moral rest in mind: "Ye shall find rest to your souls", Matthew 11:29.

J.T. That is right; the moral side is in mind; "Ye shall find rest to your souls".

R.W.S. What was in mind in reading chapter 9 again?

J.T. Just to have it before us more fully. We did not get the full thought before us at the previous reading of the abundance of the work that the Lord carried on and that the disciples were to carry on after Him.

D.Macd. John also stresses the amount of work done by the Lord in the end of his gospel: "There are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written", John 21:25.

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Would that support what you have been saying?

J.T. That is one of the most remarkable passages that we have; indicating the amount of work the Lord did. He speaks of writing them "one by one". It is wonderful to think of it!

G.H. What did the Lord Jesus mean when He said, "My Father worketh hitherto and I work", John 5:17.

J.T. He referred to what God had done. He worked from the outset. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", Genesis 1:1. That was an immense thing! God took that on in its immensity. The whole Pentateuch has in mind the work which God did.

Rem. The idea of rest does not properly come in until the work is finished.

J.T. Very good, that is the way the matter stands.

A.P. Isaiah 40:29 says, "He giveth power to the faint; and to him that hath no might he increaseth strength. Even the youths shall faint and shall tire, and the young men shall stumble and fall; but they that wait upon Jehovah shall renew their strength: they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not tire; they shall walk, and not faint". Isaiah 40:29 - 31.

J.T. That has often been quoted.

S.W. In John 4:6 it speaks of the Lord, being weary "with the way he had come, sat just as he was at the fountain", John 4:6. Does that show that even when we are weary there is still an amount of work to be done?.

J.T. And the woman herself said, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done", John 4:29. Remarkable thing! The Lord did that for her, and she knew it. You wonder how she knew it but she

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did: "Who told me all things that I had ever done". And then, "Is not he the Christ?" John 4:29.

F.H.L. That chapter seems to suggest that the Lord was ever on the move and ever available in the service.

J.T. That is just what we have been saying. It is remarkable the immensity of the work done; and, of course, we have to learn to do things in that way.

F.N.W. Does the way the Lord Jesus speaks of Himself in our chapter also give an idea of the variety of the work in which He was engaged? He speaks of Himself as the Son of man in verse 6, as a physician in verse 12, as a bridegroom in verse 15 and then speaks of Lord of the harvest in verse 38.

J.T. Very good.

R.W.S. In view of the volume of work to be done, the weariness which attends upon it and the frailty of our bodies, would you call upon the Lord Jesus for certain help, and would you also call upon the Holy Spirit for help? The Lord is said to be Saviour of the body; is there not a certain phase of the service in which, peculiarly, we should call upon the Spirit for help?

J.T. The three divine Persons are spoken of as engaged in the work. The Lord said the Father worked hitherto, and He worked, and the saints work, and the Spirit is here to empower us so that we should not be slack in it. He also has had His part in the work.

R.W.S. But with us, what is physical comes into the matter, and would we not call upon the Lord for help?

J.T. Certainly. One said, "Lord, help me", Matthew 15:25.

J.H.E. It says in Romans 8:26, "In like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness". He does that freely; seeing our need, He supplies it.

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J.T. Very good; the Spirit is here to do it, adding His help to our weakness.

Ques. Isaiah 50:4 reads, "The Lord Jehovah hath given me the tongue of the instructed, that I should know how to succour by a word him that is weary", Isaiah 50:4. Does that suggest that we can be helpful in this way to those who serve?

J.T. Very good.

Rem. And the word was to come in morning by morning, implying that each day would have its own quota of work.

J.T. Very good: "He wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the instructed", Isaiah 50:4. It is very beautiful.

A.R. It further states in Romans 8, that "the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered", Romans 8:26. That seems to bear upon the creation and ourselves as in it. It is wonderful to think of it: "groanings which cannot be uttered"!

A.A.T. In John 9:4 the Lord said, "I must work the works of him that has sent me while it is day. The night is coming, when no man can work". John 9:4. Is that the same kind of work of which we are speaking?

J.T. Yes; the Lord knew how to distinguish the time to work: "I must work ... while it is day". Day-time is the time for work.

A.B.P. Would the fifth verse of our chapter suggest that there was no such thought as taking the easy way to do a thing? The Lord said, "For which is easier: to say, Thy sins are forgiven; or to say, Rise up and walk?". He was not taking the easiest way out.

J.T. Just so.

Ques. Why is it that some, perhaps many of the brethren, do not find work to do in relation to the testimony? We easily can get almost wholly occupied with our households and our business

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matters. Does the question of outlook and availability enter into this matter, and are we to make ourselves available?

J.T. Quite so: "Here am I; send me", Isaiah 6:8.

Ques. I allude to that as a definite exercise that we might put ourselves in the way of current divine activities; the Lord would use us, would He not?

J.T. Quite so, put yourself in the way if you are ready for it, but you may suffer, too; it is a suffering matter.

Ques. Does the passage in Colossians 3:23 help? "Whatsoever ye do, labour at it heartily, as doing it to the Lord". Colossians 3:23. The footnote to 'heartily', says, 'from the soul'.

R.W.S. I want to introduce Matthew 20, where it says, in verse 6, "But about the eleventh hour, having gone out, he found others standing, and says to them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say to him, Because no man has hired us. He says to them, Go ..." Matthew 20:6,7. They did not bargain, they just went. They were available and ready to enter into the service.

J.H.E. Then, in chapter 21, His disciples went into the village and found an ass tied, and a colt with it. They were also available and usable.

J.T. Very good.

G.H. The scripture says, "The night is coming, when no one can work", John 9:4.

J.T. The Lord was speaking of the order of creation, how the Creator arranged things. God did not arrange night for work, He gave the day, and the sun, which is the larger light bearer, roles the day; it is provided for light. The night comes, and darkness. That was the Creator's thought in the creation. God arranged all these things, not leaving man to arrange anything; God made the heavens and the earth.

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Rem. Psalm 134 says, "Behold, bless Jehovah, all ye servants of Jehovah, who by night stand in the house of Jehovah", Psalm 134:1. It is right to serve God at night, is it not?

J.T. What we have been speaking about is the ordering of the Creator.

L.A.C. In the first section of our chapter the idea of walking is stressed but in the next it is following. Are these two outstanding features of dependent manhood?

J.T. Very good; I would say that.

A.R. Matthew seems to be one who got into the work quickly. It says, in verse 9, "And Jesus, passing on thence, saw a man sitting at the tax- office, called Matthew, and says to him, Follow me. And he rose up and followed him. And it came to pass, as he lay at table in the house, that behold, many tax-gatherers and sinners came and lay at table with Jesus and his disciples". Apparently he got all these people into his house immediately.

J.T. Yes; his house was made available.

A.N.W. When the Lord says, in the parable in Mark 13:34, that the man gave to each bondman his work, does it literally mean that each one has his work to do?

J.T. Yes, if he is appointed as a workman, quite so. And each should know what his work is and do it.

A.B.P. In the book of Numbers it is recorded that each male of twenty years old and upward was numbered for war and the Levites were numbered from one month and upward.

J.H.E. The household of Stephanas, in Corinth, is referred to as having devoted themselves to the saints for service, and in this connection Paul beseeches "that ye should also be subject to such, and to everyone joined in the work and labouring", 1 Corinthians 16:16.

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J.T. Very good.

Rem. The reference to Numbers is interesting because of Mr. Darby's footnote to chapter 4:3, which reads, 'Service to which one is subjected: elsewhere "labour", "suffering", "military service"'.

J.T. God, in making the earth, provided that there should be a place for man, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. There was to be a place for man in the garden and he was "to till it and to guard it", Genesis 2:15.

Ques. Might we not notice that this section of Matthew's gospel not only would stimulate us to work but it would show us how to do things. Are there not certain great principles brought out here; not to put new wine into old skins; and to put the flute players out of the house, and all that sort of thing? Would it instruct us how to work?

J.T. Quite so; the earth is the Lord's and it is intended for man. The Lord Jesus became a Man and worked as a Man, which I think is marvellous. And there are things to be done still, and they involve the provision of food and the like, and then work is needed to prepare food for us. So that there is plenty to do. But then it is a question of how to do things and I believe that enters into the whole chapter. In a general way, it is a question of the work and how to do it. The volume is very large, there is plenty to do.

F.H.L. Is this chapter preparatory to the appointing of the twelve in chapter 10 to carry on this work?

J.T. That is right; He was about to appoint the twelve.

F.H.L. Is there any moral sequence in the incidents recorded in the chapter?

J.T. I think there is; we can hardly go over the chapter now but the work is all there and the workmen that He put into it, and they are to know what to do and how to do it.

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C.F.E. The Lord sets an example in Luke 9:58: "The foxes have holes and the birds of the heaven roosting places, but the Son of man has not where he may lay his head". Is that not an example of what the workman may expect?

J.T. He had not a place to lay His head; therefore He would be hindered from doing anything; He was not wanted. It is a very feeling thing not to be wanted when you want to serve.

O.H. There is a man in Matthew 25 who hid his talent, which was a wrong thing to do. Does that not fit into what we are saying? We all have work to do, and it is not a good thing to hide our talent.

J.T. Just so; let it be available.

V.C.L. Paul writes to Timothy, saying, "Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth", 2 Timothy 2:15. "Cutting in a straight line" would be a severe test to those who serve in the word of God.

J.T. Think of Mr. Darby and his labour in the translation of the Bible. What an immense matter it was! But it was done well. Skill and substance were there to do it and it was done well. It is the best translation available. There are many other translations of the Bible in the world but this is the best there is. I believe that the passage quoted from Timothy applies peculiarly to this wonderful work that we have in our hands tonight.

G.P. In John 10, the Lord says, "The works which I do in my Father's name, these bear witness concerning me", John 10:25. Is that the way work should be done, so that it bears witness?

J.T. Just so; what the Lord did was a testimony to Him: "If ye believe not me, believe the works", John 10:38.

D.P. There is a certain soundness in Matthew. He was not a paralytic; he seems to represent responsible intelligent manhood.

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R.W.S. You have mentioned this excellent translation of the Bible in relation to cutting in a straight line the word of truth. Does not that apply to the written ministry, also, and the hymn-book which we are about to receive? A brother goes to the Lord in exercise for a word; it is ministered, recorded, revised and printed. Considerable time and effort is put into the printed ministry. But then there is our responsibility to read it; it is made available and it should be read and followed up.

J.T. Just so; the books are printed so that they may be read, not simply put on the bookshelves.

R.W.S. There is considerable labour attached to it and it is so often just dismissed and not read. We should addict ourselves to reading it even though it may be a tax upon us.

J.T. Just so; this Bible we have is a marvellous thing! It is the most accurate translation available and the footnotes at the bottom of the pages are a great help in making everything clear to us. It is a wonderful testimony to divine love operating through Mr. Darby who was raised up for that purpose.

Rem. It is the most wonderful thing in the world!

J.T. I am glad you say that. You marvel at the care expended on this book, and it is a great matter that we should have it in our hands at our readings; at this particular kind of meeting which we call the reading meeting. The brethren have been taught how to read the Scriptures.

Rem. The latest book of ministry that has been published is on Thessalonians and is especially helpful for the younger brethren.

J.T. As has been remarked, much care is expended to put these books into our hands.

A.R. We expect to have a very good hymn-book soon, too, which should help us in the truth.

J.T. Yes; our brother Mr. M. is here on that account.

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S.W. If we each would discover the work that is given to us and do it with our might we would lessen the labours of others. Moses' father-in-law advised Moses to choose men to help him with the work.

J.T. Yes, he gave wise counsel to Moses.

A.A.T. Is the printed ministry referred to in 2 Timothy where Paul says, "The cloak which I left behind me in Troas at Carpus's, bring when thou comest, and the books, especially the parchments"? 2 Timothy 4:13.

J.T. Yes; the books.

A.A.T. Is there a distinction between the books and the parchments?

J.T. Well, quite so; the parchments would be the material on which to write.

V.C.L. Should we have a greater appreciation of what is to be done? The Lord has said, "He that believes on me, the works which I do shall he do also, and he shall do greater than these, because I go to the Father", John 14:12. Does that not refer to the presence of the Spirit of God here acting in the saints?

J.T. Quite so; going to the Father He would send down the Spirit.

V.C.L. So that the matter of the revision of the Bible and the printed ministry and the like would be embraced in the "greater"?

J.T. Well, they have their place, relatively, of course. It is a question of heaven's valuation.

Rem. The book of Acts in which we have the record of so much work that was done, opens with reference to what the Lord began to do and to teach.

J.T. Yes, what He began to do and to teach.

Ques. Should the doing be in conformity with the teaching, so that there would be balance?

J.T. Yes; a brother might be a teacher but he can do other things as well; that is what the Lord is setting out. We are to do the thing as well as teach; carry out the teaching in doing.

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J.H.E. When Paul went to Corinth he worked with Priscilla and Aquila because they were of the same trade.

J.T. He was ready to do anything in following out the work.

J.H.E. In speaking to the elders of Ephesus, he says, "Yourselves know that these hands have ministered to my wants, and to those who were with me", Acts 20:34 and he also reminded them that he "ceased not admonishing each one ... with tears", Acts 20:31 ending with what the Lord Jesus said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive", Acts 20:35.

G.H. That wonderful 16th chapter of Romans seems to include many good workers. The apostle specifically mentions Priscilla and Aquila, his fellow-workmen.

J.T. Wonderful! Paul joined himself with them.

W.T.P. In Ephesians 6 the apostle Paul speaks of doing our work in simplicity of heart as to the Christ; not with eye-service as men-pleasers; but as bondmen of Christ, doing the will of God from the soul, serving with good will as to the Lord. Would you help us as to the expression, "from the soul"? Ephesians 6:6.

J.T. The soul involves the feelings. It is not a physical matter in that you cannot locate it, but it is where you feel things.

Rem. Epaphroditus drew near to death for the sake of the work, and he was distressed lest the saints should learn of it. He must have been a very feeling brother in his labours.

R.W.S. Does the last section of our chapter sum up what we have been having tonight? Verse 35 reads, "And Jesus went round all the cities and the villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the glad tidings of the kingdom, and healing every disease and every bodily weakness. But when he saw the crowds he was moved with compassion for them, because they were harassed, and cast away as sheep not having a shepherd. Then said he to his disciples, The harvest is great and the workmen are few; supplicate therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth workmen unto his harvest".

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J.T. Very good. And I should say, according to what was said at the outset, Matthew deals with the great quantity of work that was done.

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MAN (22)

Matthew 10:1 - 42

J.T. The subject of 'Man' seems opportune where the persons involved are the apostles because they are the best quality perhaps that could be adduced, next to the Lord Himself.

A.B.P. Why are they listed in twos?

J.T. I suppose the idea would be to give the full thought of the quality of the persons. "Two are better than one", Ecclesiastes 4:9 it says, "and a threefold cord is not quickly broken", Ecclesiastes 4:12.

A.B.P. That is an interesting application of the scripture. Is it not Matthew's practice to refer to twos, as in chapter 18? "Two of you", Matthew 18:19 two of the assembly.

C.A.M. I think you have stressed that this matter of two in Matthew is to meet the combinations of men; it is a strengthening of things.

J.T. Very good, but it is not simply two, but "two of you"; two of the assembly, the best quality that can be selected among men on earth; the Lord Himself has made the selection.

J.H. The disciples are taking on the features of Christ in this chapter, are they not? They become like Him, like the kind of Man they see.

J.T. So that we must omit the matter of nationalities and think of the Lord Himself selecting twelve persons; and they were called apostles.

A.N.W. Their closeness to the Lord would be seen in the statement as to the assembly, that it is "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the corner-stone", Ephesians 2:20.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Matthew says, "Now the names of the twelve apostles are these": he distinguishes them

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by emphasising their names. You do not get that in the same way in the other gospels.

J.T. So with the Lord Himself; His name is greatly emphasised in the Scriptures.

A.R. Is it not so in this gospel? It says, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus".

J.T. "For he shall save his people from their sins", Matthew 1:21. Wonderful!

F.H.L. There must be an order in which they are mentioned. It is here, "First ... Peter", as we know, and that is carried right through, but some of the apostles hardly appear again in the inspired record. I am thinking of features of manhood which come out in each one, and how wonderfully they were developed in Peter! I just wondered if features of manhood were to be seen in all the others, though in a more limited way perhaps?

J.T. The Lord says, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock" -- that is the Lord's own designation -- "I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it", Matthew 16:18 Jehovah is frequently called 'the Rock' in the Old Testament.

R.W.S. In chapter 5 we have the crowds, and again in chapter 8 the crowds follow Him. But do we come now, in chapter 10, to what is refined and special in view of administration in the assembly? And so, in the Acts we have crowds in the early chapters but then, in the body of the book, we have a Peter and a Paul and a Barnabas and others, as if we were in the realm of specialities.

E.A.L. Are not these men unique? "He gave them power over unclean spirits". The foot-note says with reference to the word 'power' that it is more than authority, it includes the right to exercise power. No one else had the same power, unless perhaps Paul.

J.T. Paul is really the greatest of all of them, because he was selected by the Lord Himself for the assembly. He had the charge of the assembly. But

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here it says, "And having called to him his twelve disciples"; that is to be noted. It does not say apostles, but disciples, meaning that they had learnt from Him, they had been taught by Him.

J.H. Are features of manhood, features of this Man, to be seen in these twelve as they go out?

J.T. The idea would be that if they were His disciples they would learn from Him; "Learn from me", He says, "for I am meek and lowly in heart; and ye shall find rest to your souls", Matthew 11:29.

F.N.W. The twelve appear in the heavenly city in Revelation 21. It says there, "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb", Revelation 21:14.

J.T. Paul is omitted there, his name is not mentioned; that is an important thing. Otherwise he is the leading man amongst all the Lord's servants.

A.B.P. Later on in that chapter it says that the foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone, and then it names twelve different precious stones. I wondered if those precious stones might set out in some typical way the features of manhood that were seen in the twelve apostles? It specifically says, "The first foundation, jasper; the second, sapphire", Revelation 21:19 and so forth.

J.T. So that they are all included, as it were; the very elect among men are included in the Lord's selection. It is very wonderful, I think, when we look at each other, as to who we are and what we are entitled to think of ourselves. Every one of us has a name which the Lord has given.

Ques. John the apostle says, in his first epistle, "That ye also may have fellowship with us", 1 John 1:3 which I have understood you to say means that the saints have fellowship with the apostles. How do we come into this matter?

J.T. Well, we are not amongst the apostles, of course, only that they have been instrumental in

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our conversion, which is a great matter; they have been instrumental; they were the inaugurators of everything, under the Lord, at the beginning.

A.N.W. "Those who believe on me through their word", John 17:20.

Ques. That is very helpful, and John says "That ye also may have fellowship with us", 1 John 1:3. Do we have fellowship with the apostles?

J.T. Certainly, that is just the thought; the apostles have first place, the supreme place, in the ministry.

A.R. It says in Acts 2 that "they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship", Acts 2:42.

J.H.E. In the letter to Philadelphia it says, "He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name", Revelation 3:12. That is the idea of renown, is it not? You were stressing the matter of the name, and I suppose that this new name will be characterised by what we are being taught as to the Person of Christ.

J.T. Just so.

A.P. Is this power that is spoken of in Matthew 10:1 transmitted to the assembly? We have in Revelation 3 the reference to "a little power", Revelation 3:8. This special power here was given to the apostles, but now in our day is there to be with us the thought of power?

J.T. It is "a little", showing that it is a question of remnant times; it is not very much, but it is power nevertheless, so we must value it accordingly. The Lord has given it to us and we are doing something; we are all doing a little, the sisters too are doing something in the sense of their minds being at work; they are here sympathetically, which is an

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immense thing; we should not have such a good meeting without them.

Ques. Does the power which the disciples had involve that the Spirit of God was available to them in some sense? It says, "And having called to him his twelve disciples, he gave them power over unclean spirits, so that they should cast them out, and heal every disease and every bodily weakness". In the end of John's gospel the Lord breathed into them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", John 20:22 but here He gave them power. Was the Spirit with them in some sense, although He did not actually come down until Pentecost?

J.T. He was here in the Lord. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me", Isaiah 61:1. The Lord Jesus was indwelt by the Spirit Himself: "I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him", John 1:32.

A.N.W. They are 'disciples' in verse 1, but 'apostles', as in power in verse 2. We are one with them in the disciple position but we are not one with them in the apostle position.

J.T. The word 'disciples' means that they learn from Him, come under His influence.

J.H.E. It is wonderful to see how this power works. We have been encouraged through a young sister being prepared to suffer in order that she might break bread. She has power to prevail. Is that not demonstration of the power that we can have as we are dependent upon the Spirit?

J.T. Just so; she is suffering because she is prepared to act against severe opposition to her coming into fellowship.

Rem. In Matthew 28 the Lord said, "All power has been given me", Matthew 28:18. He commissioned the apostles to go and make disciples of all the nations. Would you say that that power is the same as the power we are speaking of here?

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J.T. Quite so; the Lord alone can speak in that way; all power is given to Him; no one else has that but Himself.

A.A.T. In Luke 4 the Lord spoke with power and authority in connection with the unclean spirits. Would you differentiate between power and authority?

J.T. Not much; the idea in authority is that someone above you has power to give you power.

A.N.W. There is a note here to the word 'power' in verse 1 that helps on that point; it says, 'More than authority, it includes the right to exercise power'.

A.B.P. Does verse 20 give us the secret of the power? "Ye are not the speakers, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you".

J.T. That is exactly the thing, the Spirit is the speaker; "Ye are not the speakers", it is a question of where the Spirit is; the Spirit gives the power, "the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you". That is very distinct.

B.A.F. Some years back a young sister seeking her place in fellowship was asked if she had the Holy Spirit, which is often asked as a challenge in view of fellowship. She did not know but she said, 'I feel a change'. Would you say there was something in that sister?

J.T. She realised a sense of power?

B.A.F. Yes; she felt a change but could not name the cause of it as being the Spirit. Sometimes a person might not be able to recognise the Spirit as such.

J.T. What did you experience when you came into fellowship?

B.A.F. I felt a change, too.

J.T. And so did I. That is the thing; God is operating to bring about an effect so that we can be usable.

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L.W. Would it be right to say that we should be just as positively able to say that we have the Spirit as to say that we know that we have forgiveness?

J.T. Well, just so. The knowledge would come from the fact that you are conscious of the power.

S.C.M. We can say that "we know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren", 1 John 3:14. That is one of the indications of having the Holy Spirit.

R.W.S. In this chapter there is the call in verse 1, and the charging in verse 5, and then the sending in the same verse. Is there an element of commissioning the disciples in charging them?

J.T. They are under His influence and teaching, and then the charging would mean that He had put them under orders, as a general would put his men under orders. They will do what He directs.

W.W.M. A similar scripture occurs in the first chapter of Acts. It says there, "It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority; but ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth", Acts 1:7,8. That would be in the power of the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Quite so, it is definitely said so.

A.R. This charging would suggest that they are under authority, would it not? And the token on a sister's head suggests that she is under authority.

J.T. We often use the word 'commission' in the sense that the disciples were sent out. They were commissioned to do certain things.

E.E.H. In John 17 the Lord refers to these very disciples as men, given to Him by the Father: "The men whom thou gavest me", John 17:6. In what way are we to consider these men as being the Father's? He says, "They were thine, and thou gayest them me" John 17:6.

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J.T. The Father is in authority; the Father is supreme in authority; the Lord is recognizing that His Father is in authority. That is the power that He has. The use of the word 'men' is very important, the Lord says "men" to the Father; not women there, but men. Elsewhere sisters are included in the thought of sons, but not here. It says elsewhere that we are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus.

Rem. In the Acts it says that the people who heard Peter and John, perceiving that they were unlettered and uninstructed men, wondered, and recognized that they had been with Jesus.

J.T. That shows how they came under the influence of Christ, and how they were formed by it. The whole matter hinges on that.

Rem. That was real manhood.

Ques. Are there two thoughts in relation to power, one the power which is given to us as seen in the Spirit, and then, the power which we might acquire ourselves through prayer and fasting?

J.T. Quite so.

C.F.E. Is the selection of the twelve in view of administration?

J.T. Surely; they are under the Lord's orders. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves"; John 13:35 not simply love one to another, but have love amongst yourselves, the quality is to be amongst us.

Rem. The word to the assembly at Philadelphia says, "Thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name", Revelation 3:8. All these features enter into this chapter.

A.B.P. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 16, says, "Be vigilant; stand fast in the faith; quit yourselves like men; be strong. Let all things ye do be done in love", 1 Corinthians 16:13,14.

J.T. "Quit yourselves like men" indicates that they have power; a man usually has power, he is

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the vessel of power as over against woman. The woman is the weaker vessel, but the man has power. I think the Lord means that.

A.B.P. I was struck with your combination of thought in the verse you quoted, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves", John 13:35. The strength of manhood is carried out in love.

J.T. Just so, in love; it is amongst us, we are to be characterized as having the thing.

S.W. There is authority in the ministry before there can be power; the apostle Paul had to be commissioned, for instance.

J.T. But then there is acquired power too, by experience; you exercise yourself and you acquire power.

A.A.T. "These twelve Jesus sent out"; that is, they were commissioned?

J.T. Yes, "These twelve Jesus sent out when he had charged them". That means He had put them under authority, under charge, not to go to the nations, "but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". The thing is laid out very clearly.

C.A.M. Referring to that sentence, "Go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", would that, for us, mean to serve the assembly as the great matter in our minds for service?

J.T. Well, quite so, or the nations; Paul says, "Lo, we turn to the nations", Acts 13:46.

A.N. W. As the gospel closes the commission is, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit", Matthew 28:19. That is different from the word in our chapter, and the rejection and death of the Lord made the difference. Now they are to go out to all the nations. He having been slain, the door is open wide to the nations; the highways

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and the hedges are now to be searched and persons are to be compelled to come in.

J.T. It was Paul who said "We turn to the nations", Acts 13:46.

A.N.W. I am quoting from Matthew 22, where the bondmen are to call the persons invited to the feast and they would not come. Then it says, "Again he sent other bondmen, saying, Say to the persons invited, Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fatted beasts are killed, and all things ready; come to the wedding feast. But they made light of it, and went, one to his own land, and another to his commerce. And the rest, laying hold of his bondmen, ill-treated and slew them. And when the king heard of it he was wroth, and having sent his forces, destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he says to his bondmen, The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy; go therefore into the thoroughfares of the highways, and as many as ye shall find invite to the wedding feast", Matthew 22:4 - 9. I thought that is how we gentiles come in.

J.T. Now I see what you have in mind.

E.A.L. Referring to Galatians 2:9, Paul says that "James and Cephas and John, who were conspicuous as being pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go to the nations", Galatians 2:9.

J.T. That is all very plain and confirming.

A.R. In Acts 28 Paul says, "Be it known to you therefore, that this salvation of God has been sent to the nations; they also will hear it", Acts 28:28.

J.T. Quite so, and they have heard it.

R.W.S. Does the allusion in the early part of this chapter to entering into a house and saluting it, and then if it is not worthy leaving the house and the city and shaking off the dust from the feet, imply that we are to know what to do in local matters?

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Does manhood operate through our being called and charged and sent, especially in relation to a locality? The thought of the city comes into this chapter so much.

J.T. We have to decide what we should do. We do not go out now as we used to do years ago to China and other places; we seek to go on quietly with the truth amongst ourselves, keeping away from pretension.

R.W.S. And there is a little power in what is being done.

J.T. The Lord's addresses to the assemblies show what there is now; there is a little power, not what there was at the beginning, but a little; and of course we have to be content with that.

R.W.S. Should we be content with a little power and not seek more power?

J.T. I think we should be content with what has happened since the revival of the truth. Many years ago there was more opportunity to go out to the nations but we do not do it now; we feel that God has restricted us governmentally. So we are to be content with what He has given us.

C.F.E. Do you think that the little power is connected with the little flock?

J.T. That is just what it is.

J.H. The power has not diminished, has it? Is it not the same power?

J.T. The conditions have diminished; we are but a few here; we should have thousands. There are eight million people in this city and we are but a few, but God has added to us -- a change has come about.

F.H.L. I think you have linked the "little power" of Philadelphia with the "two or three" of Matthew 18, and the authority is delegated to the assembly even if only two or three are available.

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J.T. The assembly remains here and the Spirit of God remains here; therefore we have authority to go on as we are doing.

A.R. So that it is right to stress local responsibility?

J.T. Very good.

C.A.M. There is a verse in Galatians that reads "As many as shall walk by this rule, peace upon them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God", Galatians 6:16.

J.T. That is beautiful, the Israel of God; think of the magnitude of that; and yet it may be only a few. "Peace upon them and mercy, and upon the Israel of God", it is beautiful!

A.P. What is meant by local responsibility when we have nine meetings in the city; is it citywise, as to the assembly in this city?

J.T. Well, we do not go to New Jersey to take up matters; we embrace the different meetings here in different sections of the city.

A.E.W. Does the dignity of the men come out in the places they select? It is not just any house or any city that will do, but there is selection as to the cities and the houses. Does that bring out that these disciples are men of worth? "But into whatsoever city or village ye enter, inquire who in it is worthy".

J.T. It is good that you brought that up.

Ques. What is meant by "the Israel of God"? Galatians 6:16

J.T. Well, it is a beautiful thought, it is a marvellous thought though applied to a few people relatively.

F.H.L. Exodus 1 starts, "And these are the names of the sons of Israel", Exodus 1:1.

W.T.P. The name Israel means prince.

J.T. Yes; Jacob got that name in Genesis 32.

R.W.S. Can we have more as to 'not any house' or 'not any city?'

J.T. We have to inquire if persons are worthy.

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W.W.M. I understand that when the truth was being recovered, Mr. Darby, upon coming into a village, would look up christians in that village; his object would be to help them. That would be the idea here, do you think? "And if the house indeed be worthy, let your peace come upon it; but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you". If there was disorder in that house you could not do very much there, you would leave it.

J.T. The Lord asserts His own rights in what He is saying. Certain houses and persons are blessed and others are not.

S.C.M. Is that seen with Paul and Lydia? She says, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there", Acts 16:15.

J.T. Just so. That is a very good reference.

A.R. It also says in that chapter: "And we were staying in that city certain days", Acts 16:12 as if they had gone there deliberately, guided by the Spirit.

Ques. Would we do that today? That would be in the character of missionary work, would it not, to leave one city for another, looking up christians? Would we go from city to city in the present day?

J.T. We have done it at times.

Ques. How do you distinguish between that and what you have said as to missionary work?

J.T. As to missionary work, I think it is largely dead; with the revival it largely disappeared. Following the Reformation it was in full force, but not in the revival. It has been greatly reduced since the revival.

Ques. So that you would distinguish between going from city to city in this country, for instance, and going to other or heathen countries?

J.T. Yes; we do not go to other countries, such as Russia or China. I would not encourage that at all. Some years ago it was tried; we went to China where there appeared to be an extensive work; but

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it has gone to nothing. There was no result from it. We should be careful in undertaking such a matter, we know from experience that there is not much to be had in heathen countries now.

E.A.L. Is the distinction between the so-called Reformation and the revival, that the former gave way to clericalism; whereas in the revival clericalism was set aside?

J.T. And reduction came in; it is a smaller matter; China is a big affair. There are something like five hundred million people there.

D.Macd. Then would you encourage us to go to neighbouring cities?

J.T. Well, in the sense in which we are speaking of it, but there is very little time. We do the best we can, no doubt, but there is very little time.

A.R. Would you say a word as to the righteous man in verse 41: "He that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward". The thought of a righteous man is peculiar to Matthew's gospel. Is it the characteristic of an assembly man that he is a righteous man?

J.T. It is; and I think we ought to look now at these particular persons that are mentioned here to see whether we correspond with them. It is a question of each one of us being a righteous man, for example; the question is whether we are these things. God would honour us in what He is saying here; the honour is within our reach.

J.H. Would these be features of manhood?

J.T. That is just what they are. Verse 40 says, "He that receives you receives me, and he that receives me receives him that sent me"; that is God, it is God that sent Him. Then, "He that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet" -- that is such a one as John the baptist, or anyone that is a prophet -- "shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, shall receive a righteous man's reward".

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I think we had better fix our attention on the thought of a 'righteous man', that is the thing to be emphasized; that is always within our range, we may be righteous men. And of course that would mean the sisters as well.

J.H. So that the features of manhood, seen in Christ, were taken on by these men and have come down to our day.

J.T. That is the idea, they have come down from Christ through others.

J.H.E. Paul, when speaking to the elders of Ephesus, says that he held back nothing that was profitable, "So as not to announce it to you ... publicly and in every house, testifying to both Jews and Greeks repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ", Acts 20:21. That is open for us now?

J.T. Just so, an example that we can follow.

G.H. And then, as to the righteous man, Pilate's wife said to him, "Have thou nothing to do with that righteous man", Matthew 27:19.

Rem. The woman of Shunem received a prophet's reward, receiving a prophet in the name of a prophet.

J.T. That is how it works out.

Rem. It is also helpful to see what it says in James, that "the fervent supplication of the righteous man has much power", James 5:16.

J.T. Very good, 'the righteous man', I think we would do well to stop at that point. Let us see, each one of us, that we are righteous men, because it is of great importance, and it includes sisters too.

W.W.M. The woman in John 4 got a prophet's reward; she says, "I see that thou art a prophet", John 4:19.

J.T. A very good example.

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MAN (23)

John 17:1 - 26

J.T. In dealing with Scripture we should understand that it is inspired of God and that it deals with subjects that are not all alike, some of them being more sacred and exalted than others, but all inspired of God. So the assembly rightly viewed is the nearest to divine Persons, and the passages dealing with it are more exalted than many other sections of Scripture. There is a certain distinction made as to the holy pages; the Spirit of God makes His own distinctions. Every scripture is inspired by the Spirit of God, but then as to certain qualifications and exaltations and qualities, we have to make distinctions. So the assembly has the most exalted place in all the Scriptures, next to divine Persons. We have to be careful as to the way we handle any given scripture so that the distinctions that the Holy Spirit makes may be recognized. Each one of us has to challenge himself as to this.

Rem. What you have said is very important; it should keep our minds flexible that we might follow the variety and distinctions of all that God has done, or will do.

J.T. Very good; clearly some are on a lower level, so to speak, though still on a divine level, because they are inspired. When we come to John's gospel, and particularly in this seventeenth chapter, we are dealing with one of the most precious scriptures that can be spoken of. It is the nearest approach to divine Persons.

A.N.W. The apostle speaks of milk as over against solid food. Would a chapter like this suggest solid food?

J.T. I would say so.

A.B.P. Would it be right to say that we are in the holiest at this point?

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J.T. Peculiarly so, I would say. Entering the holiest is a term used in the epistle to the Hebrews and it is peculiarly applicable in dealing with John's gospel; the Lord here is speaking to His Father in the most intimate terms. "These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven" -- notice that -- "and said, Father, the hour is come". He is on the most intimate terms! And then He says, "Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". We should keep in mind the preciousness of the portion, and the Lord's lifting up His eyes to heaven. He had been looking elsewhere in His responsibility down here, but now it is a question of His relation with His Father and speaking with the Father. Presently He will speak about us to the Father, too.

V.C.L. In 1 Corinthians 12, the apostle says that there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and distinctions of operations, but the same God; as though there can be comparisons in everything created, but divine Persons are supreme.

J.T. Quite so; that is what I understand.

Ques. Is the matter of eternal life that is introduced here of peculiar interest in view of our being near to divine Persons and enjoying their affections, and serving them suitably?

J.T. I would say that greatly exalts the subject of eternal life. As you will be aware, the subject of eternal life became very prominent amongst us some fifty years ago, and has continued so ever since. Perhaps we do not follow it up so much as we should do, because it is a leading subject in Scripture.

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Life is so essential to us; not only life, but in this case life eternal; and the Lord says, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". It is the most exalted statement as to it in Scripture. In John's first epistle it is said of the Lord Jesus that He is the true God and eternal life.

E.A.L. If we do not know God now, and if we do not know Jesus Christ as the One through whom we come into the good of eternal life in this scene, we shall not know Him in eternity as such, shall we?

J.T. Well, I am not sure that I am clear on that, because we shall have eternal life certainly, eternally. But I would say to clarify the position that eternal life is usually spoken of as on the earth, connected with the earth; it is a millennial thought to a very large extent; but that does not exclude the idea that it is eternal, because the very word 'eternal' is used.

Ques. As the expression is used here the emphasis is on the word 'eternal', the footnote explains that; and is that because we are still down here, where that character of life has such a distinct advantage?

J.T. Quite so; and then it is eternal in the sense that it is not temporal; we have it in the assembly and realise it in the power of the Spirit. Eternal life belongs to the land, as we say, that is, in the assembly.

J.H.E. The Lord Jesus says elsewhere in John, "I am come that they might have life, and might have it abundantly", John 10:10. We are to be in the good of that now, are we not?

J.T. We are to have it now, certainly.

J.T.Jr. We have a brief definition of eternal life here, yet it is very full.

J.T. You mean, "This is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".

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A.R. Do you think that we fully understand the idea of the Lord's being sent, the One who was obedient here to the will of God?

J.T. He was the sent One, nevertheless He is a divine Person; He was subject and obedient to His Father in a most holy, exalted way.

A.R. So that all who are of the assembly should be marked by subjection?

J.T. Just so, it is a great principle of christianity that we should be subject, every one of us; and in the assembly we should understand the idea of subjection in all the services that enter into it. Of course, with the Lord there was order and seemliness in everything; so that He became a Babe, He was carried in arms, so to speak; then He became a Boy, He moved about as a Boy; and finally we see Him as a Man of thirty years of age. All these distinctions have to be taken account of.

A.N.W. When Jesus Christ is stated to be eternal life, the Spirit is careful to balance that by saying also that He is the true God; it would not do to leave that out. "He is the true God, and eternal life", 1 John 5:20.

A.S. Would you say that the Father is the true God here?

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. That is the first thought, is it not? The next thought is as to Jesus Christ. But the first great statement is "the only true God".

J.T. It is beautifully stated: "And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent".

A.P. Would you say a word as to why the expression "the only true God" is used here?

J.T. Where divine Persons are in question, if the thought of God is before us, they may be mentioned interchangeably; the Father may be mentioned, or God as such may be mentioned; and

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Jesus Christ may be mentioned, as we have in 1 John 5:20: "He is the true God and eternal life". What do you have in mind?

A.P. In view of the scripture in 1 John where the Lord Jesus is spoken of as the true God, is there something special to be noted in the fact that the Father is spoken of as the only true God? Is Deity particularly connected with the Father in that way?

J.T. I would be slow to use the word 'particularly' because divine Persons are equal; from a personal point of view Each is equal to the Other. And yet, in the economy, reference is made to particular distinctions; the Father is seen as the first, the Son as the second and the Spirit as the third. These are distinctions that we have to observe. At the same time the fact remains that divine Persons are equal, viewed abstractly, as to what They were in pre-incarnate conditions.

A.P. I wondered if it might link with the expression that "to us there is one God, the Father", 1 Corinthians 8:6. While Deity clearly applies to each of the Persons, is what belongs to the Deity specially presented to us in the Father in certain settings?

J.T. Very good: "To us there is one God, the Father ... and one Lord, Jesus Christ"; so that the Father is specially mentioned in that sense. But then there is the thought that abstractly the divine Persons are all equal; in pre-incarnate conditions They are all equal, and we would so regard Them. We cannot say more as to pre-incarnate conditions than that, only we know that the conditions were there.

J.T.Jr. The Lord does not say here that He is the true God, He says that of the Father; then later, in verse 5, He says, "Glorify me ... with the glory which I had along with thee"; that is evidently an allusion to His own Person.

J.T. "Before the world was", just so, the pre-incarnate condition.

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Ques. Does it help to notice that it is the Son that is speaking here? In verse 1 He speaks of Himself as "thy Son", and a little later on the personal references are used, "me" and "thou" and "along with thyself". So that as the Son He would give prominence to the Father?

A.B.P. Have we a very extended outlook in this first section in that "all flesh" is referred to, but from all flesh there are certain ones who are singled out?

J.T. Again we have to come to what is meant by the way Scripture speaks of things, what is meant usually in human language; "all flesh" might include literally the lower animals, but it means man, of course. It is man, and then finally it is converted people that are in mind.

A.B.P. It is a remarkable range of view that opens up in the holiest.

J.T. We have the Spirit of God here by us and as having come down from heaven. He is very concerned about us and He adds His help to our weaknesses, whatever they may be; if it is a matter of intelligence or understanding, we can count on the Spirit of God to help us.

F.H.L. Throughout the seventeenth chapter "the world" is referred to some eighteen or twenty times, which must be this world in contrast to the world occupied by man according to God.

J.T. Very good; but then if we enlarge on the thought we are told that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son", John 3:16. We must bear that in mind, too.

A.R. Is verse 5 exclusively what belongs to the Godhead, in contrast to verse 24? "Along with thyself", would be Deity by Itself, would it not?

J.T. That refers to the Persons in the Deity, just so; "The glory which I had along with thee before the world was"; that is Deity, pre-incarnate Deity.

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Ques. There is no suggestion, I understand, that we shall see that glory, is there?

J.T. Oh, I do not think so; it says that no one has seen God nor can see Him.

A.S. Would the pronouns help? It is "I" and "thou" when the Lord is speaking to His Father in verse 5 about Himself; but it is "I" and "they" in verse 24.

J.T. "The glory which I had along with thee" is peculiar to divine Persons, it was in pre-incarnation, not visible to the world; that is what I understand.

R.W.S. Love was there between the divine Persons, was it not?

J.T. There is that which is peculiar to divine Persons, and what is between divine Persons is beyond us; we cannot assume to see what is between divine Persons, because it is infinite. We might say that it is simple enough as to love between ourselves, but what is between divine Persons is beyond us; we are dealing with what is beyond us. It is in incarnation that we get what is near to us and can be defined.

J.T.Jr. In the first chapter of the gospel it is said that "the Word was with God"; John 1:1 that would be a link with "along with thyself", would it not?

J.T. Just so, association is the idea. Divine relations are beyond us until incarnation; then they become definable because it is intended that they should be definable in the fact that Christ has become Man. He was a Babe, a Boy and then a Man, speaking reverently.

W.W.M. Would "the world" in the expression, "before the world was", refer to the creation?

J.T. Quite so; 'kosmos' is the original word used, so that we have to include the physical world spoken of in the first chapter of Genesis. That is the only world that we can speak of with any definiteness.

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W.W.M. So in order to get a right thought as to what was in the Lord's mind we have to think of an uncreated sphere?

J.T. That is right, an uncreated sphere; who can define that? We cannot, it belongs to God.

Ques. I should like more help on the glory in verse 5.

J.T. The word is, "and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was". What is your question?

Ques. I want to know the distinction between the glory in verse 5, and the glory which we behold in verse 24; and then in verse 22, "the glory which thou hast given me I have given them".

J.T. The glory which has been given was given through Christ down here; but in verse 5 it is connected with association between divine Persons, which we cannot define.

A.R. The glory in verse 24 was given to Christ in Manhood?

J.T. Yes. In verse 22, the glory received involves the Spirit given to us. The Lord received the Spirit Himself, It came upon Him, and He gives that to us, He imparts to us what He had.

A.N.W. So the glory in verse 24 we are allowed to behold, but verse 22 speaks of a glory we are allowed to share?

J.T. That is right. The Lord is speaking primarily as to the apostles, "that they may be one". We come into the oneness that they knew peculiarly; it says, "That they may be perfected into one and that the world may know". The simple idea is that all this is visible in the saints. Verse 22 refers to a transaction between the divine Persons, but the Lord transfers that to the apostles.

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Rem. It is a very wonderful thought for our hearts, "That they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee"..

J.T. All that would imply the truth of the Holy Spirit given to us.

Ques. Would it involve sonship also, for us?

J.T. Yes, the glory must relate to sonship; the Lord received that from the Father and He has transferred it to us. The glory of sonship is the greatest glory, in that sense, that we have. God is bringing many sons to glory, and that is a great matter.

J.H.E. Would 2 Corinthians 3 help? It says, "But we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:18.

J.T. Very good; there it is a question of the Spirit's power; "Lord ... Spirit"; it is remarkable that the Spirit is said to be Lord there, the glory of the Lord is in the Spirit. The transfer to us is in the power of the Spirit. It gives glory to the fellowship; so that we should not throw it away as some that walked with us are doing in this very city. They are throwing away the fellowship, the thing that is glorious; they are not in the truth of the Spirit at all, not in the good of the truth of redemption, really.

W.W.M. Romans 8 says, "Whom he has justified, these also he has glorified", Romans 8:30.

J.T. Yes; the glory is coming in, in the power of the Spirit; it is what christianity really is, and it lies in the Spirit through redemption.

A.B.P. Is it right to say that glory relates in some way to the outshining of the activity of love?

J.T. Very good; that is just what I would understand; love is glory. It is seen in the Father and in

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the Son, too; it was seen in Christ here in incarnation.

V.C.L. Is there a suggestion that the most wonderful dispensation of all has come in? Jehovah said to Moses: "Man shall not see me, and live" Exodus 33:20; but it is given to us to behold Christ, so that in that sense this dispensation is crowned by beholding God in Christ, is it not?

J.T. So that the things alluded to would all refer to the glory that shone out in the incarnation; it is a wonderful time, a time of glory in which we are living; we want to magnify it; we have come into it; it belongs to us.

A.B.P. In the first chapter of this book it says, "we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father" John 1:14. Would that glory be some expression of the relationship between the Son and the Father which the disciples may have observed when they were with Him as He prayed to the Father?

J.T. That is right; it is sonship, which is a great matter. But it is a matter that belongs to time; we cannot say He was Son in past eternity. He was born Son: "the holy thing also which shall be born shall be called Son of God", Luke 1:35. It exists now; it is a glory connected with the incarnation. Everything hinges on that. The assembly's place and relationship hinges on the glory of the incarnation. One of the Persons of the Godhead has come into Manhood. God can do everything, but He has elected to do things by way of the incarnation.

E.A.L. In Matthew 17:5 it says, "Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them", Matthew 17:5. The footnote says that the cloud covered, without darkening them; it was bright -- the excellent glory.

J.T. The cloud over the tabernacle was a similar thing. It was God's gracious faithfulness to His people. The fulness of that glory will be seen in

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the millennium. It is a question of seeing how things have worked out in time.

J.H.E. We might say that, in measure, verse 22 is fulfilled today, for the saints are desirous of being together more and more and the glory is shining.

A.R. The Lord said, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world". We are to be marked by spiritual manhood if we are to understand these things.

J.T. It is "the men whom thou gavest me". That is before us in this meeting today; our subject is Manhood.

G.H. The great thought in mind is that God should receive glory from all that has transpired. The leper returned glorifying God. And then there is to be glory to God in the assembly. That is the great final thought.

J.T. Quite so, God is to be glorified in everything.

J.T.Jr. The reference to the "men" would allude to something the Lord had developed: "the men whom thou gavest me out of the world": that would be the apostles?

J.T. Quite so. "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world. They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things that thou hast, given me are of thee; for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me" (verses 6 - 8).

A.P. Was Stephen honoured in that he saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God?

J.T. Showing that redemption had been accomplished. He had "gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him", 1 Peter 3:22.

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A.P. That was His compensation for suffering?

J.T. Just so.

V.C.L. John was the one who lay in the bosom of Jesus. He would be one of the "men". It should encourage us to be among the men to whom these things are revealed.

J.T. John 1:4 says, "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4. It was not the light of angels; it was the light of men.

F.H.L. John says in his epistle, "our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ", 1 John 1:3. Those are the men.

S.C.M. The apostle Paul spoke of committing things to faithful men.

J.T. So that we are dealing with the idea of man and what God has in him, and what we may be ourselves as being men. Now that the Spirit has been given the glory of redemption is a very real matter. It enters into this room tonight; the glory of redemption enters into our conversation with one another: It is all very real.

Ques. Are we brought into John 17 in verse 20? "And I do not demand for these only, but also for those who believe on me through their word; that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us".

J.T. Very good. Therefore you would say it is not simply a question of the apostles; we ourselves are brought into these matters in the power of the word; that is to say, through those whom God has used -- the apostles.

Rem. So that while the apostles had a peculiar and special place, we are not at a disadvantage as having believed through their word.

J.T. It was not just anyone who spread the gospel; it was the apostles.

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Rem. And it could only be said of John that he lay in the bosom of Jesus. We cannot apply that to ourselves.

J.T. No; nor the scripture that was referred to a moment ago: "We have contemplated his glory", John 1:14. We are not all in that; the Spirit of God calls attention to the dignity of the apostles; it is apostolic.

Rem. They are addressed by the two men in white garments, in Acts 1, as "Men of Galilee", Acts 1:11.

J.T. The Spirit of God has men in mind throughout this dispensation. The apostles were specially given of the Father to Christ; we do not come into that exactly. "Our fellowship", John says, that is, the apostles' fellowship, "is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ", 1 John 1:3.

J.T.Jr. Would not all that is in this great realm of things, be set out in the apostles themselves? They set out the truth of righteousness and love. These things were seen in the apostles and would affect men generally.

J.T. Looking on to a later period, the Lord says, "For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them", Matthew 18:20. He dignifies the position even if there are only two or three; God honours it. We are not to assume to be evangelists, and build ourselves up as has been done when men classified themselves thus. The Lord was not pleased with it and it dropped out of view. God wants us to be humble because it is a day of small things.

A.B.P. What is in mind when the Lord says as to the men, "They were thine, and thou gavest them me"? How were they the Father's?

J.T. It is counsel.

A.B.P. That has a special bearing on the apostles and not upon us?

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J.T. That is right. The Lord was speaking here on earth. It is a historical matter, not of ourselves, but of the apostles.

A.B.P. Does it link on with the Lord's statement that the Father has given all things to be in His hand?

J.T. Just so; not only the apostles, but all things.

R.W.S. Verse 22 says, "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one". Does that apply exclusively to the apostles, or are we brought into the oneness?

J.T. It is only a matter of extension. The Lord was speaking of the apostles when He said that, and they came into it; in general, unity marked them. We are brought into the oneness in verse 21, but generally the apostles were in mind.

R.W.S. I believe you have said as to the fellowship of the apostles and our having fellowship with them, that there is not too great a difference between what the apostles had and what we have.

J.T. But there is something. They had full christianity and apostleship and they had companied with the Lord.

J.H.E. Verse 20 says, "And I do not demand for these only, but also for those who believe on me through their word".

J.T. That extends the matter to us.

F.N.W. Does the enjoyment of our place in sonship make way for unity?

J.T. It does. We are to love one another and respect one another and the Spirit of God greatly enhances our position.

S.W. Although the apostles are not on the scene now, this position is carried through in the saints.

J.T. In those that have believed through the word of the apostles.

S.W. The Lord in His address to the Father first says, "Father", and then, "Holy Father", and then,

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"Righteous Father". Can we use those terms intelligently?

J.T. We certainly can, for the Spirit of God is indwelling us; we are constituted priests unto God. That is a great dignity.

Rem. It is remarkable what is said about love in the last verse: "That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them".

J.T. That is wonderful!

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MAN (24)

Philemon 1 - 25

J.T. The brethren will notice that the epistle to Philemon is a complete epistle, that there are several persons involved in it, and yet it is a small portion of the Scriptures. At the same time the Spirit of God has recorded it for us and it is now a question of our being able happily and joyfully to speak together on the subject of the epistle. It is a complete subject by itself. It is important to mention this, for the epistle shows what a place brethren may have in the service of God. We may be very few outwardly yet we may have a very distinguished place, for heaven knows what there is. Ours is a day of small things, and this is one of the small epistles, but it has a remarkable place in the Scriptures.

A.B.P. Would this epistle be classified as a Merarite epistle in that it has to do with persons rather than with doctrine?

J.T. Very good; persons who are held in great value and esteem. Paul is the first one mentioned; he is said to be "prisoner of Christ Jesus"; next is Timotheus who is called "the brother"; and then Philemon is said to be "the beloved" and a fellow-workman of Paul; and then the sister Apphia, who may be Philemon's wife; and then Archippus "our fellow-soldier"; and then finally the assembly. It is "the assembly which is in thine house". Think of that word! Philemon was important enough and in a position to have an assembly in his house. Some of us have had that great privilege. It is a very great privilege to have an assembly in one's house.

Ques. Would you say that by reason of the Spirit being in the saints the substance of christianity is seen in persons? The saints compose the assembly.

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J.T. We do not want to leave out the word 'assembly' because that is where christianity is in the full sense, which is a very great matter; I have in mind that the word 'assembly' is used often by itself.

C.E.J. Do you suggest that to have the assembly in one's house would require some peculiar qualifications such as were seen in Aquila and Priscilla and, as seen here, in Philemon?

J.T. Yes; Philemon is called "the beloved and our fellow-workman". And the sister referred to was probably his wife. So that as man and wife they were devoted peculiarly to the service of God. It is a great matter to have such in our cities.

A.B.P. Would it be expected that at three-day meetings when there are more places than usual where the saints break bread, the houses selected for the purpose would be those of brethren who are of good repute, who are supporting the truth and who have the confidence of the brethren?

J.T. Just so.

A.R. There is a footnote to the word 'assembly' in Exodus 12:3 which reads, "'Assembly' is the congregation looked at as a moral whole, a corporate person before God", Exodus 12:3.

J.T. That is Mr. Darby's comment.

A.R. I am wondering if you will say something about it, for it has a very great place in your mind.

J.T. Well, it is the greatest thing on earth short of the Spirit of God Himself. The assembly is the abode of the Spirit of God, a wonderful thought; the Spirit of God is dwelling in the assembly.

E.C.G. Do you distinguish between the breaking of bread in a house continually and one so arranged in the case of special meetings?

J.T. I would not attach too much importance to the latter; it is a matter of convenience.

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Ques. Is it your thought that though these persons whom Paul addresses are of the assembly and there was that which was distinctive about them, yet there is a distinction attaching to the assembly which cannot attach, in the same way, to the individuals?

J.T. Quite so; I would say that fully.

R.W.S. There are certain names in this epistle that we cannot be too sure about. In Colossians 4:17 Paul has to say to Archippus, "Take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord, to the end that thou fulfil it", Colossians 4:17. And in 2 Timothy 4:10, he says, "Demas has forsaken me, having loved the present age", 2 Timothy 4:10.

J.T. Demas failed later but he was still in fellowship here.

R.W.S. As coming to the end of our readings on the subject of Man should we not raise the enquiry if the features of manhood which have come before us during these past two years are marking us, so that we will remain in fellowship and grow in it?

J.T. That is so; but the persons here are commendable. Paul was genuine, the greatest servant of all, and he was a prisoner of Christ Jesus, a distinguished honour. Timotheus is next mentioned and he is called "the brother". And then we have Philemon, spoken of as "the beloved and our fellow-workman", and the sister who is evidently the wife of Philemon. So that the personnel is very important and has a marked place in the assembly, although seen in a local setting.

R.W.S. I was thinking of the personalities in the assemblies in a dark day such as ours. I thought it would challenge each of us whether our participation in the fellowship becomes "operative in the acknowledgment of every good thing which is in us towards Christ Jesus", as it says in verse 6. So that when we come to the end of the epistle we read in

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verse 23, "Epaphras salutes thee, my fellow-prisoner in Christ Jesus; Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow-workmen", and we know that some of these did not remain as bright as they once were.

J.T. So that in such persons as are mentioned we are dealing with the personnel of the assembly; but then the assembly is mentioned by itself, and is said to be in the house of a brother: "The assembly which is in thine house". That is the greatest thought, for apart from divine Persons the assembly, as a whole, is the greatest thought.

F.H.L. Is Timothy an outstanding assembly man who was marked by true features of manhood, so that the apostle links himself with him in several of the epistles?

J.T. Very good.

A.M. Would you say that love and faith, as mentioned in verse 5, are two outstanding features of spiritual personality?

J.T. Very good.

A.M. Do these features mark spiritual persons in relation to their assembly settings? And should we be able to recognize these features and search ourselves as to whether they are seen in one another?

J.T. Exactly; love and faith are among the greatest features which can mark the saints. And then the Holy Spirit, of course, is in us.

Ques. Did Paul have in mind the development of divine love in the assembly, in a constitutional way, and is the reception of Onesimus, in that way, a kind of pattern? He was to be received as a brother beloved, and should we not have that before us?

J.T. Onesimus was a recent convert, apparently, and Philemon and his wife were clearly brethren in whom the apostle had full confidence. It is a very great matter when we can mention a brother as having full confidence, generally, and his wife in full support.

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Ques. They seem to be samples, do they not? Timotheus is not merely a brother, but the brother; Philemon the beloved, Apphia the sister, and then the assembly.

J.T. The article distinguishes all that is said.

A.N.W. Is it in the relationship of a brother that he is able to possess him fully for ever? It says "That thou mightest possess him fully for ever; not any longer as a bondman, but above a bondman, a beloved brother, specially to me, and how much rather to thee".

J.T. It is a wonderful thought that Philemon was to possess him for ever. Think of a brother whom you know well, and love well, that you are going to possess him for ever! What a great fact this is!

G.P. Would it be a mark of manhood to promote love, to stimulate affection? Paul's word here is, "for love's sake I rather exhort".

J.T. Very good. He would stimulate the affections.

Ques. Why does it say our fellow-soldier rather than using the article 'the?'

J.T. There are two such expressions: "our fellow-workman" and "our fellow-soldier". These are two fine expressions. One is a workman doing things that will stand, and the soldier is defending it. The workman does the thing that will stand, but then it has to be defended and the soldier is to defend it.

E.A.L. At the end of the epistle there are five fellow-workmen. Is it the idea of those who work in the assembly?

J.T. Yes; workmen are just persons who are doing things. The stress is not on men, but that they are work-men.

E.A.L. As Paul wrote to Timothy: "Strive earnestly in the good conflict of faith"? 1 Timothy 6:12.

J.T. Just so; it will have to be defended because we are in the enemy's land. It is a great matter,

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when things are right and if they are of value we have to defend them.

J.H.E. While building the wall in Nehemiah's day they had a trowel in one hand and a sword in the other.

J.T. That is a very good example; building and defending.

E.E.H. Verse 7 says, "For we have great thankfulness and encouragement through thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother". Would he refresh the bowels of the saints by ministry or by his affections?

J.T. By his affections, good feelings, feelings of affection. The bowels suggest a peculiar place of affection; it is not the heart but the bowels; it is the feelings and movement of affection and love. Philemon was highly regarded by Paul.

F.N.W. Is there an order in verse 5? It says, "Thy love and the faith which thou hast towards the Lord Jesus, and towards all the saints". The Lord Jesus is mentioned first. Is it important that we be right towards the Lord Jesus and then we will be in right relations with the saints?

J.T. The saints are to be first in our affections, next to the Lord Jesus Himself.

F.N.W.

"Nor what is next Thy heart
Can we forget;
Thy saints, O Lord, with Thee
In glory met". (Hymn 160).

J.T. That is a wonderful statement by Mr. Darby.

C.E.J. So that Philemon would be universal in his love and faith towards all the saints. He would go beyond his own locality.

J.T. Yes, it would be towards all the saints. Philemon is in mind; the apostle is expressing his feelings about Philemon.

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G.B. Does he have in mind the quality of his love and faith when he says, "In such sort that thy participation in the faith should become operative in the acknowledgment of every good thing"?

J.T. That would be the quality of the love and the faith that the brother had.

A.T.D. I would like help as to faith "towards all the saints".

J.T. Well, you know the brethren and you love them. It is not difficult to love, and love and faith are joined together, you might say, in one great idea in relation to the saints.

E.C.L. Does brotherly love connect with the overcomer in Philadelphia and the preservation of life in the assembly?

J.T. I think it is just lovely to think of brethren like that; they give character to the whole position, as it says of Philemon -- his love and faith towards the Lord Jesus, and towards all the saints.

J.T.Jr. Did manhood show itself in Paul when he took up the obligations of Onesimus in love and said, "I will repay"?

J.T. Very good; he was ready to pay, but he reminds Philemon that there was something due from him; but then he said, as it were, It is all to be worked out in love: "Refresh my bowels in Christ".

V.C.L. Is not this a model letter? There may be much letter writing, but this model letter takes account of everything that is positive in the brethren, and makes the most of it in love.

J.T. Quite so.

A.A.T. According to Colossians it would seem that Philemon and Onesimus were Colossian saints. It says in chapter 4:9, "Onesimus, the faithful and beloved brother, who is one of you", Colossians 4:9.

J.T. It would seem so; and Onesimus is called a faithful and beloved brother. You could not say

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anything much greater than that about a brother. It is beautiful!

F.W. Is there a distinctive feature of manhood in Paul's saying, "I rather exhort, being such a one as Paul the aged, and now also prisoner of Jesus Christ"?

J.T. Yes; he is in full liberty and is not ashamed to speak of himself. Some may say that he is talking about himself, but Paul was unique. There was no one like him on earth, outside of divine Persons. "Such a one as Paul the aged"; I think that is wonderful! What Paul must have been! What he was as an old man! He did not live to be very old, yet he was an old man, and he calls himself "the aged". I think it is wonderful that he could thus speak of himself.

F.W. Would it be allowable to impart the idea of his fatherhood into this? Would he take the liberty of a father?

J.T. Well, quite so. He exhorts for "my child", but he does it as "such a one as Paul the aged". I suppose there is none like him in the universe, except divine Persons. So that we may proceed: "I exhort thee for my child, whom I have begotten in my bonds, Onesimus, once unserviceable to thee, but now serviceable to thee and to me: whom I have sent back to thee: but do thou receive him, that is, my bowels:" (remarkable expression, referring to inward feelings), "whom I was desirous of keeping with myself, that for thee he might minister to me in the bonds of the glad tidings; but I have wished to do nothing without thy mind, that thy good might not be as of necessity but of willingness; for perhaps for this reason he has been separated from thee for a time, that thou mightest possess him fully for ever". I think it is glorious that brethren can speak in that way to one another. I would like the brethren

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to take notice of that. It is the way we can speak of and to one another.

Ques. The apostle could speak of Mark as being serviceable to him for the ministry. Is this feature of serviceability to be cultivated that we might be serviceable in the testimony and to one another?

J.T. Yes, but the chapter proceeds further, "Not any longer as a bondman, but above a bondman, a beloved brother". I want the brethren to notice that, "a beloved brother".

J.T.Jr. A change had taken place in Onesimus, he was once unserviceable but now serviceable. Paul discerns that he is now serviceable to Philemon.

Ques. Does the thought of a beloved brother go right through to heaven?

J.T. Certainly; "for ever" must involve that; "possess him fully for ever". That must be for heaven; that is what we are going into and it is good to think of it and be ready for it. I think that the three-day meetings we have just had are a good sample of what can be found in heaven. The brethren become accustomed to be in heaven at such times. We are not to be strangers to it.

"There no stranger-God shall meet thee --
Stranger thou in courts above! --
He, who to His rest shall greet thee,
Greets thee with a well-known love". (Hymn 76)

I think we may well add that to what has been said. It is another example of Mr. Darby's wonderful poetry.

A.R. So that when we get to heaven it will not only be a question of knowing divine Persons, but of how we know the saints.

J.T. Very good.

F.H.L. Onesimus would have been a slave, I suppose, but Paul speaks now of the bonds of the

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glad tidings. There is a contrast between the bonds of the glad tidings and his bondmanship as a slave.

J.T. Quite so.

A.B.P. Would the details of this epistle be like a practical working out of the Lord's parable in Luke 10? The Samaritan resuscitated the half dead man and brought him to a sphere where he would be cared for, and Paul is doing that for Onesimus.

J.T. Say more.

A.B.P. Well, the Samaritan gave the innkeeper two pence, saying, "Whatsoever thou shalt expend more, I will render to thee", Luke 10:35. It is like Paul's word: "I will repay". There is much in the epistle which seems to fit into the spirit of the neighbourly feelings which come out so strikingly in Luke 10.

J.T. Just so.

C.A.M. Paul says, in Romans 1:9, that he served God in his spirit in the glad tidings. This epistle seems to be a good example of that.

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. Paul had great influence over persons, a right influence; he could work with Philemon and he could work with Onesimus, and bring them both together in true brotherly love.

J.T. So he says, "I Paul ...", as though to bring himself before Philemon: "I Paul have written it with mine own hand"; I think it is very beautiful the free way in which the great apostle could speak. And then he says, "I will repay it". The actual wording in the original is, 'I will repay' -- a stronger word than "I will repay it", for it is a general thought. And then he adds, "That I say not to thee that thou owest even thine own self also to me". It is remarkable that he should be so free, and then to say, "Yea, brother, I would have profit of thee in the Lord: refresh my bowels in Christ. Being confident of thine obedience, I have written to thee, knowing that thou wilt do even more than I say. But withal prepare me also a lodging".

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What happy liberty! The apostle is free to ask this brother to prepare a lodging for him. This kind of thing promotes love among ourselves.

H.F. The thought of recovery is prominent in regard to Onesimus, "once unserviceable to thee, but now serviceable to thee and to me". The present phase of recovery in the assembly is an important one.

J.T. Indeed it is, we all feel that.

H.D. Is it not important to see the place that Paul's prayers had in all this?

J.T. Wonderful; and it is wonderful that the apostle should be so free to speak to his brother in this way. It should encourage us in the terms on which we should speak to one another, and speak of one another, too.

J.C.T. Is not the word 'partner', as used in verse 17, a very touching expression?

J.T. It is; it is a peculiarly close relationship in responsibility, especially when it is worked out from what we call the fellowship. A similar use of the word occurs in Luke 5:10.

Ques. Is the debt referred to here financial?

J.T. It is financial, clearly so. A remarkable thing that Paul should take on financial matters! and he said that he was ready to pay.

E.C.L. Does Paul's reference to the partner show that he would view Philemon as having manhood features in the assembly?

J.T. I would think so. But to proceed, he says, "Being confident of thine obedience, I have written to thee, knowing that thou wilt do even more than I say. But withal prepare me also a lodging". Now I think that is very beautiful. Paul might say that he would surely give him a bed, but it is more than that; the lodging is to be prepared.

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Ques. The Lord has gone to prepare a place for us, has He not?

J.T. Very good.

R.W.S. Is there a further thought in verse 22? It says, "for I hope that I shall be granted to you through your prayers". A brother who is needed and loved may be kept amongst us because of the prayers of the saints.

J.T. I was thinking of that and of how free the apostle was to speak of himself. He knows the qualities that marked him as serving the Lord and he was free to speak of them. "I hope that I shall be granted to you", he says, as though to confer the great privilege of being granted to him -- that is to say, to Philemon.

Ques. Do the deep feelings expressed in this chapter and the devotedness of love one towards another spring out of the suffering position?

J.T. Very good; "To you has been given, as regards Christ, not only the believing on him but the suffering for him also", Philippians 1:29.

A.M. Does this letter show the peculiar value of collecting the letters of those who have been in the lead among us? Is it not a great service to the saints, as impressing upon us their personalities and value in the testimony? I refer to brothers like Mr. Darby, Mr. Stoney, Mr. Raven, Mr. Coates, and others. Is this not a peculiarly valuable service, apart from their teaching, as it gives the personal side as distinct from but supportive of the teaching?

Rem. Paul did not wait for an invitation; the liberty of brotherly love is seen in that he asks that it be prepared for him.

J.T. We might consider how we would prepare for Paul if he were to call upon us today.

H.L. We may be tested as to the way in which we receive a brother such as Onesimus in the stead of Paul.

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MAN (25)

1 Timothy 2:1 - 15; 1 Kings 19:1 - 21

J.T.Jr. It has been thought well to continue the subject of Man in the readings before us and the scripture in Timothy has been suggested because of the truth that "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus". There is also the great thought of God and men -- so we have God and men. While woman is in mind in Scripture, right from the outset, yet we have at the end that God tabernacles with men; not with men and women, but with men. What is in mind in men has been much before us as we have pursued the subject of Man, which, as we have seen, includes woman. But God has given men a certain place; and women have a place, too, but a place relative to men. In the second section of the chapter, beginning with verse 8, there is a further allusion to men: that the men pray in every place. That is men in contrast to women. But there is also an allusion to women, as to what is comely, that they are not to teach, not to exercise authority over man.

The chapter in 1 Kings has been suggested because there we have an example in Jezebel of a woman who usurped authority. We also have the prophet's history in relation to Jezebel, and I thought we might see, with the Spirit's help, how God comes in under such circumstances.

R.W.S. Does this epistle set out divine order in christianity?

J.T.Jr. I think that is right, order in the assembly is in mind. The word to Timothy is, "That thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth", 1 Timothy 3:15. We are to be in the assembly in an orderly way.

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C.A.M. Would you say that the idea of woman is seen in the assembly itself? The feminine side is in the assembly, and goes through into eternity.

J.T.Jr. I think that is right, the thought of the woman, therefore, is seen in the assembly eternally. It is a question of what Scripture says; we have in Revelation 21:3, "the tabernacle of God is with men". God's original thought was "Let us make man ... and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. That, of course, brings in Christ and the assembly, typically, the feminine side being in the assembly.

A.N.W. So that the holy city has a feminine aspect. In Revelation 21:2 she is said to be as a bride, adorned for her husband, and then a loud voice out of heaven says, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men", Revelation 21:3.

A.R. Does verse 5 of our chapter, in stating that "God is one", embrace the three divine Persons?

J.T.Jr. I think so. I think it is the statement of the truth that God is one; there are not three Gods.

A.R. And in Revelation 21 there is the same idea: "The tabernacle of God is with men", Revelation 21:3.

A.B.P. Our scripture, in stating that "God is one, and the mediator of God and men one", seems to suggest that the Mediator is acting on behalf of the Godhead.

J.T.Jr. Just so; there is no disunity, and I suppose that is to be the great result in men; there is to be unity in what has been reached for God; it has come out from God. The reference in Genesis 1:1 to God having created the heavens and the earth has in mind the Godhead. Here it is not creation, but God in relation to men. In these readings our subject is Man, embracing an order of man with whom God takes on relationship. It is a plural thought, not just one man but an order of man, and that brings us in. Christ is the beginning of that

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order. As God was with Christ when He was here, so now it becomes a matter of extension. It is available to all men through the gospel.

R.W.S. Does the dislocation of humanity, which the enemy has brought about, but emphasise the unity which presently is found only in the assembly?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that in that way unity is brought about amongst men; God is bringing about this unity; it is from Himself; it flows out from God, for "God is one".

A.R. And does the Lord's office as Mediator of God and men involve His present position? It is "the man Christ Jesus", the anointed Man.

J.T.Jr. Yes, He is the Mediator and it is a question of how God's thoughts are reached so that God has men with Him sympathetically.

W.W.M. In John 16:21 the Lord says, "A woman, when she gives birth to a child, has grief because her hour has come; but when the child is born, she no longer remembers the trouble, on account of the joy that a man has been born into the world", John 16:21.

J.T.Jr. That would be Christ in resurrection. He has brought in joy and reconciliation; the distance has been removed. There is distance, darkness, unbelief and lawlessness in the world. But in Christ everything can be recovered.

C.A.M. I think that allusion to Christ, objectively, is a great help. We read of "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good pleasure in men" Luke 2:14 when He was born, according to Luke 2:14.

J.T.Jr. God's great thought was to have "good pleasure in men". It is reached through Christ the Mediator. Christ has brought in the joy and good pleasure. He has brought in an order of things whereby God can be with men.

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J.P.H. Does the thought of one Mediator of God and men mean that there is no need of any other and that there could be no other?

J.T.Jr. Quite so, I think it is the extension of the thought that "God is one", for it goes on to say that the Mediator of God and men is one.

S.C.M. Is this the One for whom Job was looking? He said, "There is not an umpire between us, who should lay his hand upon us both", Job 9:33.

J.T.Jr. Well, I think that helps. There was no one who could do it but Christ. He can do it because He is on both God's side and man's side as Mediator.

A.N.W. The Mediator must be God and he must be man to be able to place His hand upon both, must He not? Our scripture stresses the fact that He is "the man Christ Jesus".

J.T.Jr. On the one hand the statement that "God is one" brings in the Godhead and we find ourselves in the presence of what is beyond us, but we bow in the presence of the statement that "God is one". But then we have the Mediator also, as has been remarked, and what is stated here is that He is a Man, "the man Christ Jesus". That brings us to the great fact of the incarnation. I do not know that we can say much about it, but the incarnation is intended transcendingly to affect our minds; One who was in the form of God has become man. "The word became flesh", John 1:14.

J.H.E. In Philippians 2:5 we are exhorted to "let this mind be in you as also it was also in Christ Jesus; who subsisting in the form of God, did not esteem it an object of rapine to be on an equality with God; but emptied himself, taking a bondman's form, taking his place in the likeness of men", Philippians 2:5 - 7.

J.T.Jr. That is it; He took His place "in the likeness of men; and having been found in figure as a man, humbled himself".

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That is "the man Christ Jesus", He is the Mediator, and the Mediator is one.

V.C.L. Is it through the Mediator that God's thoughts for man are shining out? Man was in view in what God has done mediatorially?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; and there is extension, so to speak, to man of the oneness referred to here. It is not a multiplicity of ideas and expressions: indeed, it is not a question of the mind of man at all. The unity has its character in that it comes out from God. I think that should have its effect upon everything amongst us, but especially in relation to the service of God and in administration. If the thought of oneness is before us and that it comes out from God, we will be greatly helped on these lines.

C.A.M. It would impress us with the greatness of God's thought as to manhood when we think that the whole moral question of good and evil was to be solved by a Man.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that this verse is the proper platform for the gospel, for it goes on to say, "Who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony to be rendered in its own times". So that we get the great thought of the ransom and then Paul's part in the testimony: "To which I have been appointed a herald and apostle". It is very instructive.

R.W.S. Is there a reason for bringing out this truth in an environment of prayers in view of leading "a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity"? And then he concludes the paragraph by saying that he did not lie: "I speak the truth, I do not lie". There seems to be emphasis on these great thoughts in that they are placed in the centre of that kind of setting.

J.T.Jr. The prayers alluded to here must have been much in Paul's mind because he exhorts to prayer in verse 1 and wills it in verse 8. And then there is to be piety and gravity amongst the brethren.

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We need to be increased along the lines of piety and gravity.

A.N.W. The reference to "all men" in verse 1 includes women, but in the apostle's desire "that the men pray", in verse 8, it is men in contradistinction to women. The, Mediator stands in relation to all men, God desiring that all men should be saved; the Mediator gave Himself a ransom for all. So that in the glad tidings you can tell any person that "the man Christ Jesus" gave Himself a ransom for all. But in connection with the house of God and our behaviour there the distinction between men and women shows itself in connection with prayer.

J.T.Jr. That is right, we come down to the constitution of the assembly, which is men and women; that is the outward order in the assembly.

V.C.L. Would the word "men" have maturity in view, which would be seen in those coming to the knowledge of the truth?

J.T.Jr. You have in mind that all men should be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth?

V.C.L. If the gospel is rightly preached and rightly apprehended by faith, persons will be saved and come to maturity in the knowledge of the truth; they will come to manhood.

J.T.Jr. Well, I think that is right. The great thought of God is that all men should be saved; that is the great thought in the gospel, that all men should be saved. But He also has in mind that they are to come to a knowledge of the truth. Coming to a knowledge of the truth would include what the apostle has to say as to the assembly, I would think. The assembly is the pillar and base of the truth, and you can see that coming to the knowledge of the truth involves having part in the assembly.

J.P.H. Mr. Darby's footnote to the word "knowledge" reads: '"true knowledge" ... which acknowledges the truth of a thing, and to know the truth

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thus suggests possession of it'. Therefore, it is not just the mental possession of words, but the real entrance into the truth in the soul.

J.T.Jr. The truth is opened up in the assembly. Paul opened up the truth of the assembly, but then he ministered in regard to it. It says in Acts 11:26, "For a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught", Acts 11:26. Matters of the truth, such as household baptism, addressing the Spirit, and the truth of the Lord's sonship, which have been difficult for some to understand, are all related to the assembly. If persons wish to get the truth, it is a question of where it is ministered. Paul opened up God's mind in the assembly. The true servants of the Lord make much of the assembly and the character of teaching that is to be found in it.

Ques. Is not that set out in Ephesians 3 where the apostle speaks about "the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God"? Ephesians 3:8,9. And then, later on, in verse 10, he says that there is to "be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God", Ephesians 3:16.

J.T.Jr. That is right; I think Ephesians shows what we are saying; it is a question of the assembly, which is the vessel of the service of God on the one hand and of administration on the other, but it is also the depository of the truth; the truth is there, in the assembly; the Spirit is there and the Spirit guides into all the truth.

A.T.D. In Ephesians 4:13 it says, "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God", Ephesians 4:13 is the thought of all arriving there similar to the thought of all coming to the knowledge of the truth, in our chapter?

J.T.Jr. I believe it is, it is a question of being saved first and then coming to the knowledge of the

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truth. All the ministry we are having is really to bring us to a knowledge of the truth, and it is a question of God and men. God has men before Him according to His own mind; and Christ gave Himself a ransom that His thought might be reached.

B.T. In 1 Corinthians 11 it says, "I wish you to know that the Christ is the head of every man, but woman's head is the man, and the Christ's head God" 1 Corinthians 11:3. Would that be knowledge arrived at in our own souls?

J.T.Jr. That is a feature of the truth. That is in Corinthians, which refers to assembly order; it is the public order of headship. Christ is the head of every man. Headship is traced through man to Christ, to God. The truth set out there fits in with what we have before us because woman is not to usurp authority: "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man". It is a question of woman's place in the divine ordering. It is not that she is any less, personally, than man, in the sense that she was taken out of man, but positionally she is to recognize the place that man has been given, as it says, "for Adam was formed first, then Eve".

A.B.P. There seems to be a moral reason why the Lord, in John 4, before opening up the truth to the woman, said, "Go, call thy husband, and come here", John 4:16.

J.T.Jr. The Lord reached her conscience, and she went to the men of the city and said, "Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?", John 4:29.

R.W.S. Have you any thought why the Spirit of God has been emphasizing the importance of the sisters of late?

J.T.Jr. I believe it is to stimulate them in regard to the truth; it is not that they are to take part in the assembly, but to encourage them to go on in

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exercise. They do not take part publicly in the meetings, so that they are at a disadvantage in that sense; but I think what has been in mind is that they are to carry exercises and have their own relationship with the Lord. The more that this is so the more they will be in satisfaction and in the enjoyment of the things that God has given us.

A.P. Woman is included in the word 'man' in Genesis 1:26, is she not?

J.T.Jr. Yes; mankind is in mind there, but in the public order, as it is now, the woman is in a position of subjection in which God has put her. She is not allowed to speak in the assembly. The apostle says, "For Adam was formed first, then Eve: and Adam was not deceived; but the woman, having been deceived, was in transgression".

A.R. In the scripture we read in 1 Kings 19 it says that "Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done".

J.T.Jr. Well, he was a weak man; he was not able to take matters up and deal with them as he should but he was influenced by Jezebel. He was a disappointing brother.

A.R. Jezebel began to take matters into her own hands.

J.T.Jr. That brings out the whole matter of the woman usurping authority. But in the light of that we see the positive side of things in the way that God is operating. We can always count upon God coming in.

Ques. Is it right to say that we find the real expression of man according to God only in the assembly?

J.T.Jr. Well, I think that is right; a man gets converted and is delivered from his sins and comes into happy relationship with God. Where does he fit in? It is a question of the assembly.

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A.H. Would Lydia be an example of a sister who laid hold of the truth for herself?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; she did not teach; we are told that she was at the prayer meeting and that she had a house. Those things are commendable. She says, "If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and abide there", Acts 16:15. She is not out of her place, for the Lord had opened her heart to attend to the things spoken by Paul, and she spoke in a comely way.

Rem. It is remarkable that the system that presently answers to Jezebel teaches that the virgin Mary is in heaven, making her another mediator.

J.T.Jr. Quite so: it is satanic.

A.B.P. From a practical standpoint it sometimes occurs that a sister may be much more intelligent and more capable than her husband. Does it not help in the acceptance of headship in such cases to see that man being head of the woman is a divine principle and that God will support the woman in accepting the position and honouring God in it?

J.T.Jr. I think so; He will take care of the matter. And there is no need that women take on any public matter as to the assembly. It says that the women are to "learn in quietness in all subjection" and "to be in quietness". The word 'quietness' occurs twice in the passage.

V.C.L. Is it not of interest that the vision Paul had was of a man, but he first found women at Philippi? And do you not think that the Spirit of God would help so that every problem and every exercise on the part of the sisters would be met in the assembly?

J.T.Jr. I am sure they would; and so the man was produced at Philippi. God had the jailor in mind and He brought him in to establish assembly conditions there.

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A.R. What do you say about the passage: "The woman, having been deceived, was in transgression"?

J.T.Jr. Well, it brings out the weakness that was in the woman.

J.H.E. Deborah had the light of what should be done but she called Barak into the matter.

J.T.Jr. Yes; but she said, "Jehovah will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman", Judges 4:9.

Rem. Mary Magdalene received a message from the Lord and conveyed it to the brethren.

J.T.Jr. She was subject; and the Lord gave her a message to the brethren and she carried it; she was a suitable vessel to do it. I think she qualified for the service.

J.P.H. We can be assured that she conveyed the message in a comely way, suitable to a woman.

C.A.M. John 20 was a garden scene and is a most wonderful answer to what happened in the first garden; Mary recognized the headship of the Lord.

A.N.W. John 20:18 reads, "Mary of Magdala comes bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her", John 20:18. She is not teaching, but saying what Jesus had said to her. It seems to be so perfectly fitting in that particular setting.

J.T.Jr. She was a subject woman, and that is what we want to see in the sisters.

S.W. Do we not see, too, the thought of availability to carry the message?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the Lord made her suitable; there was a certain amount of darkness with her but it soon disappeared.

S.W. As receiving the ministry the sisters would hold themselves available to be of greater service.

J.T.Jr. The stimulation that the Lord has had in mind for the sisters is to arouse them as to their own place in the testimony and their links with God.

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They need to have their own links with God, and prayer too. If they do not maintain their own relations with God, they will lose in their souls.

Ques. Do we have that set forth in Aquila and Priscilla? The apostle abode with them, and later, when Apollos came they were both able to help him.

J.T.Jr. Exactly; there was remarkable spiritual unity between man and wife, which is good to see. We may find a brother with a wife who does not help him at all; she may not be spiritual. But the thing is to be subject and cultivate personal relations with the Lord and become spiritual.

A.H. Deborah has been referred to. Do we not see the thought of stimulation working out in her?

J.T.Jr. Well, exactly; and what really is distinctive with Deborah is that she is called a mother in Israel. That is a spiritual thought.

F.N.W. The word: "What becomes women making profession of the fear of God" brings out what you say as to their relations with God.

J.T.Jr. Exactly; that is what is in mind; it is a public matter. As to the men, the apostle says, "I will therefore that the men pray in every place, lifting up pious hands". It is a public testimony. It would not be seemly for a sister to get up in the assembly and pray; it would be out of order. It is not seemly for her to speak in the assembly. But she should have her own links with God in private prayer and grow spiritually in that way.

A.Macd. Did not Hannah have her own links with God? and she was seemly at home.

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

E.A.L. She asked for a man child.

J.T.Jr. She had in mind a man for God.

J.P.H. The sisters are not debarred from being serviceable by being subject. The word in Judges 5 is, "Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed above women in the tent!".

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And then, "She put her hand to the tent-pin, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and she smote Sisera, she struck through his head" Judges 5:24 - 26. A sister can thus be available as she is subject and takes her right place.

J.T.Jr. It was in the tent; and the blessing is "in the tent". God could have done otherwise but he led Sisera to the tent; she overcame him in the tent.

A.R. It says of Jezebel that she "calls herself prophetess".

J.T.Jr. It is what marks the system to which we have referred.

Rem. If a sister does not go on in quietness and subjection she will not learn rightly.

J.T.Jr. I think it is a fine word: "Let a woman learn in quietness", and again, "To be in quietness".

A.A.T. I notice that sisters have made many contributions to the service of praise by composing and contributing hymns.

J.T.Jr. That is not ministry in the assembly. It is quite right that a sister should write a hymn; many have done so, but that is not prophesying or teaching in the assembly.

A.B.P. We have the song of Deborah, for example.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. We have often referred to the four daughters of Philip, who prophesied. They would do so, no doubt, in comeliness. Paul stayed in the house (Acts 21:10). He would not "suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man". She is not to do it; it would be out of place if she did.

A.H. The words, "In like manner", in verse 9 of 1 Timothy 2, would suggest what is in keeping with the thought of piety expressed in the men lifting up pious hands?

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J.T.Jr. I think so, and as has been remarked, the environment or atmosphere of the chapter is prayer and piety. It is what is needed in men in their relations with God. It all leads up to the great thought of God and men. Men are to be in relationship with God. It comes about as we are with God. Enoch walked with God.

R.W.S. The last verse of the chapter brings in an "if". "She shall be preserved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and love and holiness with discretion".

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the allusion is to a man and his wife; that is the inference. It is a question of unity in divine things in the house.

A.R. The men "lifting up pious hands" would suggest priestly service.

J.T.Jr. We have the pattern the Lord has given us in Luke's gospel. He is seen frequently with God in prayer. It has been said that eternal life is especially seen as the Lord was in relation with God directly. It is in our relations with God that the truth that is in His mind comes out; either in service directly to Him or as we are here tonight in the assembly.

T.N.W. Would sisters be encouraged in finding that their exercises are expressed by the brothers, either in the service of praise or in readings?

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so.

L.W. Hannah, Lydia and other sisters had things in their hearts. Mary kept certain things in her heart; Hannah spoke to Jehovah in her heart; Lydia had her heart opened by the Lord to attend to things spoken by Paul.

J.T.Jr. It is a question of their affections. And they are to be objects of affection. "Husbands, love your own wives", Ephesians 5:25. A wife is the object of her husband's affections and this chapter would have that

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in mind, for as the sister learns in quietness and is in subjection, she is lovable.

L.W. Peter's word to the sisters is that their adorning is to be "the hidden man of the heart, in the incorruptible ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which in the sight of God is of great price", 1 Peter 3:4.

J.T.Jr. That is a good scripture to bring in. It goes on to show how Sarah was in relation to Abraham, calling him lord. She did not exercise authority over him; she called him lord.

Ques. How do you regard the service of the woman in John 4?

J.T.Jr. Well, it was a question of her conversion and the right influence she had over men in contrast to the wrong influence she had exercised before. Women have an influence, but it is to be exercised in a right way.

Rem. The Shunammite woman observed the prophet passing by and influenced her husband to do what was right.

J.T.Jr. That is a good example. She prepared a place for the prophet in the house.

R.W.S. Jezebel, I suppose, would be an extreme case of one who exercised an evil influence, and God was ready to deal severely with her.

J.T.Jr. Jezebel is an extreme case and, as remarked, is suggestive of a system in christendom. The word in 1 Timothy 2 is that the woman is not to exercise authority over man. Jezebel did that and Elijah fled from her. He fled for his life. It shows what we may do if there is fear in our hearts. Instead of acting like men we act in fear. But God comes into the matter, although there is great weakness in Elijah.

E.E.H. Does Jezebel represent the element of persecution?

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J.T.Jr. I think we see in this chapter a weak order of things set out in Elijah. What is to be done? Well it is a question of what God will do. And that is what we should see now. If things are weak, what is God going to do?

C.A.M. Is it not remarkable to see that God brings him to the thought of the anointing (1 Kings 19:15,16)? He was brought back from the region of fear to the region of the Spirit as suggested in the anointing.

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

V.C.L. Is it significant that Elijah was preserved in power when he was regarding the heavens? He saw a cloud small as a man's hand. He was preserved in that matter; but when he saw the public disorder with a woman usurping authority he seemed to lose his touch with God and become afraid.

J.T.Jr. Quite so. It is stimulating to see the converse of this in the New Testament. Paul never fled from anyone. It is a question of spiritual power in Paul. Although in prison it was a question of how he was in prison; there was no weakness in him.

A.B.P. Evidently Elijah was fully recovered. The reference to him in Malachi 4:5 and the reference to "the spirit and power of Elias" in Luke 1:17 seem to suggest that he was held in high regard in heaven.

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

A.B.P. Did his power come in the recognition of the Spirit? It says that Elisha poured water on his hands (2 Kings 3:11).

J.T.Jr. Well, I would think that he was recovered by God taking on the matter Himself. What we need to see is at what point God will come in, and to be ready for Him when He does come in.

A.N.W. It is a very searching matter because he could face the hundreds of the prophets of Baal

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unflinchingly and yet he was troubled under the fear of this woman.

J.T.Jr. It is to bring out that we do not always act like men; we may run away from a situation.

S.C.M. Verses 13 and 14 say, "A voice came to him and said, What doest thou here, Elijah? And he said, I have been very jealous for Jehovah the God of hosts; for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant ..."Perhaps he had to come to something in his history with God?

J.T.Jr. No doubt. But God did not leave His servant. He did not forsake him; He supported him in his journey, supplying food through an angel. Elijah may think that nothing is being looked after, but God can look after things, and He looked after Elijah, too, through an angel.

F.N.W. Should that help us to be restful as to conditions in weak localities where things may not be right? We can count on God bringing about what is right?

J.T.Jr. Quite so: "The Lord is able to make him stand", it says of the servant. Romans 14:4.

A.B.P. There seems to be a contrast between this fresh food and water and the fixed condition of mind into which Elijah had gotten. There is not one iota of change in what he said before and after these things happened at the cave. It is as though he had reached a fixity of mind, which is very dangerous.

J.T.Jr. It is.

J.H.E. He repeats the same words the second time, as though he got no help. He thought all was gone. Paul says that "the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, The Lord knows those that are his; and, Let everyone who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity", 2 Timothy 2:19. We are to "pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart", 2 Timothy 2:22. We will

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always find "those" who are going on, even though we might think we are alone; God has His "seven thousand", has He not?

J.T.Jr. Even when he said, "I am left, I alone", God had not left him. God does not leave His servant.

A.B.P. Have we not been taught by the Spirit of God in recent years the principle of this "soft gentle voice" as seen in the outward physical weakness of the minister but the choice detail of the ministry. The "voice" is of much more importance than outward manifestations of power.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the New Testament affords similar examples in Paul and others. Even though Paul was aged and a prisoner, we get his greatest epistles. God never left him. It is a question of God being with him.

R.W.S. And is not the care in verse 5 designed to affect us? "And behold, an angel touched him, and said to him, Arise, eat! And he looked, and behold, at his head was a cake, baked on hot stones, and a cruse of water. And he ate and drank, and lay down again". Then it is repeated. Is that not intended to affect us? It is what God is doing.

J.T.Jr. I think we need to take more account of that. Jezebel will assert herself and force her way; what she says shows how she usurps authority, but God is acting in the whole matter and He is engaged with Elijah.

J.H.E. "Arise, eat; for the journey is too great for thee". None of us could ever hope to go on alone; we need the saints.

J.T.Jr. It is a question of weakness; the journey would be testing and divine support is needed. But God comes in with support for Elijah. He will make His servant to stand. The Lord could say, "This is your hour and the power of darkness", Luke 23:53. But it is a great thing to see that God was in the matter. Christ

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was raised from the dead by the exceeding greatness of God's power. And so it is a question of the power of God at the present time, and of seeing what He will do.

J.P.H. What does the cruse of water suggest? In 2 Kings 2 a new cruse is called for and salt was to be put into it.

A.H. Has it not been suggested that what was provided was sufficient and that God will see to it that we get through?

A.R. The journey of forty days and forty nights would represent the wilderness journey, do you think? He came to Horeb.

J.T.Jr. And as has been remarked, there is sufficient to carry us through.

Ques. Do you think that the man with the drawn sword who appeared to Joshua would be a great support to him although he was fearful of him at first?

J.T.Jr. Well, Joshua got on to right ground; he took off his shoes. If we get to right ground we see where the Lord is in matters. So in this chapter it is a question of God working with Elijah; it is God and one man; He comes down to one man. But the great thought in God's mind is God and men. We all want to come into that.

Rem. The weakness of Elijah's position was that he thought he was alone.

J.T.Jr. Whereas he was not alone; God does not leave us alone.

A.R. In verse 9 it says, "The word of Jehovah came to him". It is not an angel now; it is a direct word.

J.T.Jr. So that we are to be concerned as to the word, the word of God. Something positive comes to us to help us in the word.

A.H. Do we get a contrast in Elisha who, instead of being fearful, says, "Fear not, for they that are with us are more than they that are with them", 2 Kings 6:16?

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J.T.Jr. I think we see in Elisha how the Lord has extended things on spiritual lines at the present time. At the end of the dispensation He has brought about recovery and recognition of the Spirit. There are persons He can trust and He has placed them in localities to look after His interests.

A.E.W. Would that be suggested in the fact that Elisha was ploughing?

J.T.Jr. Well, quite so; he was a worker and he was ploughing with twelve yoke of oxen.

V.C.L. Are we to have the impression left upon our spirits that all depends upon the "mediator of God and men one, the man Christ Jesus"?

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

Ques. Jehu is mentioned by Jehovah in this chapter. Is that to assure us that Jezebel will be dealt with?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; that is the governmental side. Things will be dealt with, and if God has to use a forceful man like Jehu, He will do so.

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MAN (26)

Acts 5:17 - 42: Acts 6:1 - 15: Acts 7:1 - 60

J.T. The verses we began with refer to a religious matter: "And the high priest rising up, and all they that were with him, which is the sect of the Sadducees, were filled with wrath, and laid hands on the apostles". The apostles were exposed to suffering almost immediately at the beginning of the dispensation.

R.W.S. We are still considering the subject of Man, are we not? Do these scriptures bear on that subject?

J.T. Yes; manhood is seen in the apostles. It goes on to say that they "laid hands on the apostles and put them in the public prison". They were put in the public prison.

A.B.P. Do we see in this section the capacity for suffering that was seen in the apostles and then later in Stephen?

J.T. Yes; particularly in Stephen. His is a distinguished name in the list of sufferers.

A.B.P. Would the golden censer suggest the capacity to suffer as seen in Christ? It was filled with coals of fire from off the altar and the priest's both hands full of incense placed upon it "that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat", Leviticus 16:13.

J.T. I should think so.

J.T.Jr. There are the sufferings of Christ, which are unique; and then we have the sufferings of the apostles and Stephen's sufferings.

J.T. Very good, the sufferings of Christ, the sufferings of the apostles, and the suffering of Stephen. Stephen was a devoted man; he became the first martyr in this dispensation.

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C.H.H. Does the awful character of the religious opposition show itself in the priesthood being allied with the Sadducees, who were infidels? They did not believe in the resurrection.

J.T. They were infidels, and as such were religiously opposed. Religious opposition is the most serious of all.

A.N.W. Is this feature of suffering in mind when the Lord is spoken of as the Lamb that had been slain? In Revelation 5:6 everything is to be set right by One who is known, not only as the Lamb, but the Lamb that had been slain.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. That is brought into verse 30 of our chapter: "Whom ye have slain, having hanged on a cross".

R.W.S. The Lamb is seen standing in Revelation 5. Does that mean that He is now in resurrection, and is that not the sequel to suffering? If suffering goes as far as death, God's answer is in resurrection power.

J.T. Quite so; and then to proceed, we have, in verse 19, "But an angel of the Lord during the night opened the doors of the prison, and leading them out, said, Go ye and stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life".

J.T.Jr. The commission was to speak "all the words of this life". It is the life of Jesus, is it not?

J.T. Yes; very good.

R.W.S. Is it what He was below, or what He is above?

J.T. Well, it is the Lord as He was in the presence of men, I would think. But it is, "all the words of this life", referring to a life that was acting for God on the earth..

A.B.P. Do we see it set out in Stephen? Was the same character of life extended in him?

J.T. Quite so; say more.

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A.B.P. I wondered if the teaching of "this life" was supported by the manner of life seen in the apostles and in Stephen who set it out so fully even to martyrdom.

Ques. The same life that was here in flesh and blood is now out of the grave by resurrection power. That would be over against the teaching of the Sadducees?

J.T. Very good; the Sadducees were opposing what was of God at the moment; they denied the resurrection.

J.T.Jr. The life of Jesus is the subject of testimony.

Ques. Does the gospel of John open this up? "In him was life, and the life was the light of men", John 1:4.

J.T. Yes.

A.R. You have said that the great thought in that verse is eternal life, as seen in the Lord Jesus.

J.T. Quite so, eternal life is the great thought in John's gospel.

E.A.L. You have also said that the great matters in John are light and love and life.

J.T. Yes; and I would say that "this life" is the life set out in John's gospel.

J.T.Jr. The expression "this life" would mean that the thing is current, the life of Jesus.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Do you mean that it is what the apostles were speaking about?

J.T. It was the life of Jesus, and it is the only one worth speaking of, really. Thank God for that life!

A.R. Would that be confirmed in the Lord's saying to Saul of Tarsus, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest"? Acts 9:5.

J.T. Just so.

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T.N.W. It is said earlier that "they recognised them that they were with Jesus", Acts 4:13.

A.B.P. Is verse 32 important as bringing in the witness of the Spirit? "And we are his witnesses of these things, and the Holy Spirit also".

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. An angel told them to go and speak; I suppose that angels cannot speak "all the words of this life", but men are privileged to do so.

J.T. In chapter 8 a very full thought of suffering is opened up: "And Saul was consenting to his being killed", Acts 8:1 referring to Stephen. Saul was consenting, "And on that day there arose a great persecution against the assembly which was in Jerusalem"; Acts 8:1 it is against the assembly; that is the great power now here, in relation to Christ -- the assembly.

A.B.P. In referring to Saul do you have in mind that out of this there was developed the greatest sufferer, possibly, apart from the Lord?

J.T. Yes; a great sufferer; thank God for him! He remains as a witness to suffering ever since.

J.T.Jr. Reference to the assembly, therefore, coming in as the sufferer before Saul is taken up would be very instructive.

J.T. Very good; the assembly is a salient point in the Acts, I am sure.

J.T.Jr. So the Lord says: "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest", Acts 9:5. The assembly is in His mind, is it not?

J.T. Yes; quite.

C.A.M. It is for the assembly to know the suffering before the glory, in order that the life of Christ might be displayed in it.

J.T. The sufferings and the glory make a beautiful thought, the sufferings and the glory. We are not told whose glory it is, but it is there. The Lord

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suffered and entered into His glory, and Paul, His great servant, suffered and will be in the glory.

A.R. It says, in the book of Revelation, "The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready" Revelation 19:7. She is seen as the wife of the Sufferer.

J.T. Yes; the Lamb's wife.

A.N.W. May we look at the high priest and the sect of the Sadducees as representing the gates of hades? It says that the gates of hades shall not prevail against the assembly (Matthew 16:18).

J.T. Yes; think of the venom of these persecutors against Christ. In verse 17 of Acts 5 it says, "The Sadducees, were filled with wrath", Acts 5:17.

A.N.W. The note shows that the idea of envy is there. It is that peculiar character of wrath; jealousy and envy.

J.T. That is striking.

C.H.H. I suppose that the sufferings commenced in Luke 4. It says, "They were all filled with rage ... and cast him forth ... that they might throw him down the precipice", Luke 4:29. Every effort and every overture met with this violent opposition. But Stephen, as enduring it, saw the glory of God and could speak of seeing the Son of man.

J.T.Jr. The title Son of man would have in mind what was in manhood, and would connect with "the words of this life".

J.T. Man is the great idea of God; we perhaps may forget the place that man has. When we think of the Lord Jesus having become Man it gives us some idea of how great a thing it is that God has before Him.

W.T.P. Does Stephen in some way express that thought in himself? Is there a correspondence in him to the Son of man and the glory? It says, earlier, that his face was as the face of an angel.

J.T. Just so.

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A.N.W. His witness was that of a martyr. The idea of martyr enters into Acts 22:20, "thy witness Stephen". In the word 'witness' we have the idea of martyr.

A.R. Does the title Son of man mean that Christ is now in relation to all men?

J.T. Quite so; in relation to all men; it is wider than Israel. It is in relation to the race.

R.W.S. Does the Spirit of God have in mind that there should be some correspondence in the way of suffering at the end of the dispensation to what there was at the beginning? All this that we are reading about was at the beginning; we are now at the end.

J.T. There may be.

F.T. The end of the Lord's path, as recorded in Luke, entailed the ignominy that was shown at the cross; the mocking, the insult, and the sneering.

J.T. It is well to have that before us. Today is an important day in this country (Election Day), and we can have that in our minds, that God may have His ministers in the Government to look after things in a public way in view of the testimony. We are exhorted to pray "for kings and all that are in dignity, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity", 1 Timothy 2:2.

C.H.H. Do you think that the sufferings at the end of the dispensation may be more moral than physical? Paul speaks of his sufferings which he had and the care of all the assemblies which, in his mind, seemed to be above all other sufferings. If we were more spiritual, we would develop these deep feelings. Spirituality would produce these deep feelings and we would suffer for the testimony.

J.T. Well, I think that is good; we should have these deep feelings.

J.T.Jr. The apostles were beaten, it says. It was a humiliating thing, but it was a suffering matter.

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But today it is more moral; the saints go through moral suffering, but the apostles suffered in a peculiar way.

C.H.H. Paul could write to the Philippians, "even weeping", about those "whose god is the belly ... who mind earthly things", Philippians 3:19. It is rare now to see brethren weeping over spiritual defects in persons. Paul felt things morally; at Ephesus he served them night and day with tears; and it is said of the Lord Himself: "My tears have been my bread day and night", Psalm 42:3.

J.T. Quite so; and the apostle remembered Timothy's tears.

Ques. Is there refusal to hear the testimony of the Holy Spirit as well as hatred against the Lord and the assembly? It says in verse 51, "O stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit".

J.T. Showing that the Spirit was refused.

J.T.Jr. The allusion would be to the Spirit operating in men. Seven men, full of the Holy Spirit, were selected in chapter 6. Stephen is spoken of in this chapter as being filled with the Holy Spirit.

C.H.H. Peter writes much of suffering but nearly always brings in the idea of glory, linking on the sufferings with the glory.

J.T. Just so; what a wonderful expression: "The sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these", 1 Peter 1:11.

A.B.P. The Lord Jesus Himself said, "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into his glory?" Luke 24:26.

J.T. Wonderful!

W.W.M. Does suffering link on with manhood and shine out in relation to our position in testimony? Moses chose rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.

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J.T. How gloriously manhood shone out when Christ was here; what a sight for God! It involved the sufferings and the glories after these. What it must have been to God that Man should thus be seen in perfection in such circumstances!

Ques. Verse 41 of chapter 5 says, "... rejoicing that they were counted worthy to be dishonoured for the name". Paul could say that he rejoiced in sufferings (Colossians 1:24). Is it a distinctive character of christianity that not only sufferings are endured but they are rejoiced in?

J.T. Quite so; I am sure the Lord has had great pleasure in the readiness with which suffering has been taken on and I am sure He has pleasure in our being here today, in spite of the fact that the political situation around us today is also important to Him; He is thinking of us, and what is in our hearts, and He will regulate what is political in view of His people.

A.P. Are there two particular things which bring in sufferings at this present time? I am thinking of our young men being called for military service and also of the union matter.

J.T. Very good; but I am sure that God is thinking of the young men who are suffering.

F.N.W. The way Stephen says, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit" would be a witness to the Spirit in him, supporting him in suffering.

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MAN (27)

Acts 9:1 - 31

J.T.Jr. Paul is the outstanding gift to the church, and the consideration of manhood as seen in him would be very enlightening and instructive, especially as we look at the details of his conversion.

A.B.P. His introduction to us in chapter 7 is: "The witnesses laid aside their clothes at the feet of a young man called Saul" Acts 7:58.

J.T. What have you in mind about that?

A.B.P. Our subject is Man, and I thought it was significant that the title 'man' is given to him when introduced in the Scriptures.

J.T. Quite so; and then, in chapter 10:1, we have: "But a certain man in Caesarea, -- by name Cornelius"; Acts 10there is a link there. There are men who are going to heaven and we all should be ready for that; heaven is to be opened soon.

W.W.M. When Ananias said, "I have heard from many concerning this man how much evil he has done to thy saints", he had in mind the wrong kind of manhood.

C.A.M. Do you think there is a change of man in this chapter? As we think of Saul of Tarsus and the change that he underwent you would think it right to say that there was a change of man; and I suppose we have all to change our man.

J.T. That is an expression that was given out some time back; that we have to change our man.

A.R. You made a remark about going to heaven; it says at the end of verse 3, "And suddenly there shone round about him a light out of heaven ... And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest". Are we to learn this kind of Man? He is the suffering Man, for though

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in heaven, He feels what the saints are suffering. It involves both heaven and earth; it involves Christ in heaven but suffering with the saints on earth.

J.T. I wonder what heaven will be composed of and what we may have in mind as to the idea of heaven, because there are to be men in heaven.

T.N.W. The expression "such a man" 2 Corinthians 12:3 is used by Paul to describe the man that went up to the third heaven.

J.T. Quite so; very good, he was caught up to the third heaven.

A.R. Do you think there are men in heaven now?

J.T. It is the great idea of God and men that is in mind. What a variety of things there must be in heaven, and think of the kind of Man that God has in heaven now, and the kind of men that God is going to have in heaven!

F.N.W. Does the testimony of Jesus develop men who are suited for heaven?

J.T. I would think so; but what about the millennium? There are to be men suited for the millennium.

F.N.W. I suppose we are to be heavenly men in association with Christ in the millennium.

Ques. Does the Lord Jesus as a Man in heaven give the assurance that men will be there?

J.T. I think so.

J.T.Jr. There is only one Man in heaven now. Christ is in heaven; as far as we know He is the only Man in heaven. He has gone into heaven itself. We cannot say where Enoch and Elijah are, for example, although it says, "Jehovah would take up Elijah into the heavens" 2 Kings 2:1, and of Enoch it says, "God had translated him", Hebrews 11:5.

J.T. Quite so.

A.N.W. Luke speaks of Moses and Elias on the mount as "two men". Would you say they were in heaven, or not?

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J.T. Well, the next thing is, where is heaven? It is a place God has in mind for beings, to have them in relation to Himself.

A.N.W. Yes, finality is in relation to the tabernacle of God being with men. But you are now pressing the point as to heaven.

Ques. Why is the idea of heaven plural? Scripture speaks of the heavens. The apostle Paul was caught up to the third heaven, and the Lord Himself has gone far above all heavens.

J.T. Heaven must, in some way, convey the idea of God and what He is like. And so as to man. The idea of the plural is that God takes account of the kind of being that He has; he is like Himself: "Let us make man in our image", and then, "let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. They must be like God.

Ques. Does the plural convey the sense of fulness?

J.T. The fulness of the Man: "the fulness of him who fills all in all", Ephesians 1:23. Man is the greatest being that God has designed, and we have part in that.

A.B.P. Do we have a suggestion of the heavens in the tabernacle system? First there was the court, then that "which is called Holy" and then that "which is called Holy of holies", Hebrews 9:2,3.

J.T. Why do you say that?

A.B.P. Because it is spoken of in Hebrews 9:23 as "figurative representations of the things in the heavens", Hebrews 9:23

J.T. Just so; but what more do you have to say?

A.B.P. In Job 2:1, reference is made to the sons of God appearing before Jehovah. I wondered if that might be a sphere which would be less holy than the third heaven, for instance, spoken of by Paul, and that the nearer we get to divine Persons, the more holy would be the sphere.

C.A.M. I think you have said that the tabernacle system is a picture of the universe.

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J.T. Well, that is what it is; but the point is, where is man in relation to it, and how much like God is he? The word is, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion", Genesis 1:26. That is the position. Let them have dominion. There is the idea of rule; a Man is to rule the universe.

C.A.M. I suppose it would be right to say that the holiest of all would be the presence of God Himself in the vast universe, and that a Man has gone in.

A.B.P. In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul speaks of having been caught up to the third heaven, saying, "I know a man in Christ", 2 Corinthians 12:2. That would be a new order of man?

J.T. Very good; a man in Christ; and he had in mind to describe him so that we might have an idea of him and the kind of man God has in His mind.

J.T.Jr. So it says, "Whether in the body or out of the body I know not, God knows", 2 Corinthians 12:2. God has to do with our bodies.

G.H. There is a difference, is there not, between the thought of the inward man and the new man? Romans 7:22 speaks of the inward man delighting in the law of God, and Colossians 3:10 speaks of having put on the new man.

J.T. The inward man refers to God's work in us but the new man is a broader thought and is in contrast to all that has gone before. The old man is to be put off and the new man is to be put on.

Rem. We are to put on the "new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness", Ephesians 4:24.

J.T. That is good.

J.T.Jr. These thoughts are very practical; it is what was going on, in some measure, in Saul in our chapter. The inward man was being developed. A good start has been made. Delighting in the law

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of God involves subjection; that is what we get here in Saul; he says, "Who art thou, Lord?". A later account tells us that he said, "What shall I do, Lord?" Acts 22:10. That was his conversion.

J.E. According to 2 Corinthians 4:16, Paul could speak of the outward man being consumed and the inward man being renewed day by day.

J.T. Very good; it is a continual thing, and God has a great interest in it. Day by day is an everyday matter.

E.A.L. In 2 Corinthians 5:17, it says, "If any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new", 2 Corinthians 5:17. That is an individual coming into the new position through being in Christ. Paul spoke of himself as being "in Christ", saying, "I know a man in Christ", 2 Corinthians 12:2.

J.T. Paul had that ministry. Peter did not have it; it was Paul's work. What a scope he had! God had taken him up for that purpose.

J.H.E. The Lord said to Ananias, "This man is an elect vessel to me".

J.T. Quite so.

V.C.L. Do you think "a man in Christ" brings us back to God's first thoughts, creating man in His own image and likeness?

J.T. Quite so; it was what was in His mind. His first thought was man, not woman; but "let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26 brings in the man and the woman. The assembly is to have part in rule. The principle has been seen in England for years. The queen has a place as well as the king.

A.R. When Paul said, "I know a man in Christ", the word 'know' was conscious knowledge. It would be a present matter all the time.

J.T.Jr. The beginnings of all that can be found in this chapter. Paul's conversion was the beginning of all these great thoughts of man which are

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developed in his ministry, and particularly as to Christ and the assembly.

A.B.P. Do we rightly link this with what he says, in Galatians 1:15: "But when God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:15. This is his call, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

A.N.W. Is he not signalised in the very fact that the Lord appeared to him last? I thought that appearing signalised the vessel.

J.T. Quite so.

C.A.M. So that in his conversion there was the germ of what he was to set out in his ministry. There was such a wonderful change and such wonderful light that there seems to be in it the germ of all that he brought out in his ministry.

J.T.Jr. And the beginning of it is in that word, "Who art thou, Lord?"; he had never said that before.

C.A.M. What you referred to earlier about his subjection is such an immense matter at the commencement of soul history, is it not? There is another will now.

J.T.Jr. His own will was broken.

A.B.P. Would his being baptised for the washing away of his sins show that there had been an inward work? Baptism would be a public expression or evidence that an internal work had taken place?

J.T.Jr. You are referring to his later account?

A.B.P. Yes, Acts 22:16.

A.P. Should we not be able to analyse the work of God in ourselves? Paul says, "So then I myself with the mind serve God's law", Romans 7:25.

J.T. Quite so; the idea of 'I myself', and then later Paul says, "I know a man in Christ", 2 Corinthians 12:2.

A.R. Do you think that verse 6 is an extension of the thought of manhood? In verse 5, he says,

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"Who art thou, Lord?". But in verse 6 he is told to rise up and enter into the city where he would be told what to do. He would get more light as he went into the city.

J.T.Jr. Yes, the Lord did not do the whole matter, He sent him into the city where he would find the brethren.

S.C.M. Is there anything to be learned from the word 'suddenly?' Divine Persons have a right to do things suddenly.

J.T. Quite so.

S.C.M. In Luke 2:13 there is a similar expression: "And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host", Luke 2:13.

Ques. Do you think that the Lord's words to Paul at his conversion would give him a great appreciation of the assembly, when the truth came into his soul, and give colour to his life and ministry? When we get converted we get light as to the Lord, but we need light as to the assembly and the value of the brethren.

V.C.L. It is very impressive that heaven should so value this man. The Lord Jesus appeared to him; a brother was made ready to lay hands on him that he should receive the Holy Spirit, and the brethren cared for him so that he should not be killed. It emphasises the value of a man to God, does it not?

J.T. I would say so; he was the subject of divine care.

G.H. In this chapter there are the expressions 'suddenly' and 'straightway', and then two men saying to Peter that he must not delay. All this would suggest that there is urgency in the Lord's work.

J.T. That is good; these were urgent matters. We should take account of things that ought to be done at once.

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A.R. Saul's preaching seems to be the first time we have the Lord Jesus referred to as the Son of God in the book of the Acts. "He preached Jesus that he is the Son of God". That title involves that He is the centre of another world altogether. Saul must have been a very rapid learner. And then in verse 22, it says, "... proving that this is the Christ". He must have received great light about the Lord quickly.

F.N.W. Underlying his powerful testimony for Christ there seem to be subjective features that are proper to man according to God. He was subject, saying, "Lord", he was praying, and he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ques. Is there a suggestion that Paul's ministry flowed out of his experiences? He prays for the Ephesian saints, that they may be strengthened by the Father's Spirit in the inner man. I wondered if he has experience here, for he received the Spirit, as baptised, and was strengthened, and then, in verse 22, it says, "But Saul increased the more in power".

J.H.E. The Lord said to Nicodemus: "Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God", John 3:3 and then later, "Except anyone be born of water and of Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God", John 3:5. Do we see that worked out here? It says, "And straightway there fell from his eyes as it were scales, and he saw, and rising up was baptised; and, having received food, got strength. And he was with the disciples". He has seen and now he enters.

J.T. Quite so.

E.A.L. Nathanael, John the baptist, Martha, and the centurion called the Lord the Son of God. Does Paul's ministry follow on what they confessed as to the Lord, that He is the Son of God?

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J.T. We might wonder what we are coming into, not in the millennium, but as going into heaven. He has gone into heaven; angels and principalities have been made subject to Him.

A.R. The Lord Jesus went into heaven, according to Acts 1:9. But the testimony is rendered: "This Jesus who has been taken up from you into heaven, shall thus come in the manner in which ye have beheld him going into heaven", Acts 1:9. I have wondered about the manner in which He went in, and in which He is coming back.

J.T. I have also wondered about that: those who believe are all going to heaven. "Such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones", 1 Corinthians 15:48. The Lord Jesus has gone into heaven and those who are like Him are going in.

A.R. His going into heaven must have been unique, and He will come back in the same manner.

V.C.L. The Lord went into heaven alone; when He next goes back into heaven He will have the redeemed with Him. Men just like Himself are going into the very presence of God with Him.

Rem. In John 17 the Lord said to the Father: "Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me", John 17:24. The Lord wants us to be with Him where He is; in the meantime He is leaving us here.

J.T. What a wonderful prospect there is before us in all these matters. We are to be the companions of Christ.

J.T.Jr. It is in the assembly itself that we should see the kind of people who are going to be in heaven.

F.N.W. Acts 10 brings out that the assembly is the place where we see the persons who are going into heaven. It was after Peter had the vision of the sheet coming down from heaven, and being taken up to heaven, that the Spirit said to him, in that

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setting: "What God has cleansed, do not thou make common", Acts 10:15 alluding to the persons.

A.Macd. Verse 19 says, "And he was with the disciples who were in Damascus certain days", and similarly verse 28, "And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem". There is no thought of independence with Paul.

J.T.Jr. He was with the disciples; that is the great point. And we are with the brethren tonight; it is the same idea.

C.A.M. Paul comes to city conditions. What an immensity there is in this conversion!

J.T.Jr. Yes, and following that there is the idea of how the disciples look after him. There were those in the city who took care of Paul, while others sought to kill him.

J.H.E. While soul salvation is through the precious blood of Christ, we need the protection of the assembly to be saved from the world and the things of the world, do we not?

J.T. Very good.

S.C.M. The apostle was brought into the good of the fellowship; it says: "But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles, and related to them how he had seen the Lord in the way". He is brought into the right way now. Previously, he was seeking to destroy those who were in the way, but now he himself is brought into it.

Rem. Peter being told not to call what God has cleansed common or unclean, would help us not to regard men as common; God would set man up in dignity.

J.T. Just so.

S.W. The first person to come to Saul is the brother; then he is with the disciples, and later he is introduced to the apostles. But the value of the brother would never be lost sight of by him throughout his ministry. At the end of his epistle to the

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Romans he refers to the brother Quartus, for example. He may go right on to revealing the mystery, but he never loses sight of the brother.

J.T. Very good.

A.B.P. Is care for one another to characterise us as disciples? The thought of discipleship seems to be very prominent in this chapter. Does the title 'brother' link on with discipleship?

J.T.Jr. It was the brethren that brought him down to Caesarea and sent him to Tarsus. The brethren sent him. That fits in with what you were saying as to the link with discipleship.

F.H.L. The circumstances attending upon Saul's conversion were qualifying him to take his place amongst the disciples. He was to be told what he must do. And then he was led by the hand. In Romans 12 we are called upon to present our bodies a living sacrifice. He seems to be qualifying for that here.

A.N.W. Is the uniqueness of the man and the extensive influence he had before his conversion seen in the last verse we read? It says, "The assemblies then throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria had peace, being edified and walking in the fear of the Lord, and were increased through the comfort of the Holy Spirit" (verse 31). Does it not show what a vessel is secured, we may say, for the assembly?

J.T.Jr. So that following on the thought of discipleship, we have this thought as to the assembly, and Paul was to be used so distinctly in regard to it.

S.C.M. It says, in verse 17, that he was to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This seems to characterise his ministry. In chapter 19 he immediately enquires of the men at Ephesus if they had received the Holy Spirit.

J.T.Jr. Quite so.

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A.R. The reference in verse 31 is to the assemblies; it is in the plural; the assemblies throughout the whole of Judaea and Galilee and Samaria. Apparently this is the first time in the Acts the word is used in the plural.

J.T.Jr. It would seem that God was acting in view of the assembly. This great servant is preserved in spite of the attempts that were made against him. He was preserved and the assemblies were comforted and increased.

A.R. It is the "comfort of the Holy Spirit".

W.W.M. The sovereignty of God is wonderfully seen here. It says, in verse 7, "But the men who were travelling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but beholding no one". Evidently they were not affected, showing how the sovereignty of God may operate in a gospel preaching where only one person out of many may be converted.

J.T.Jr. There was one person in mind here -- Saul of Tarsus.

Rem. That sovereignty is set out in Galatians 1:15 where it says, "But when God, who set me apart even from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me", Galatians 1:15

S.C.M. Saul is spoken of as an elect vessel.

C.F.E. Were these downward movements intended to make Saul greater morally, in view of his ministry later? He was let down through the wall in a basket, and then brought down to Caesarea.

A.N.W. It is interesting that he later links that experience on with his reference to the catching up of the man in Christ to the third heaven, in 2 Corinthians 12:2.

E.A.L. The brethren "brought him down to Caesarea and sent him away to Tarsus". Did you have something in mind bearing on the movements of the Lord's servant?

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J.T.Jr. Well, I thought it shows how this great servant was preserved despite the efforts of the enemy to destroy him. The brethren looked after him. It says that the Jews' "plot became known to Saul". He discovered it himself; it speaks of Saul's own intuition about things, but it was the brethren who cared for him.

He refers to it later, as has been mentioned, before he recounts the fact of a man in Christ being caught up to the third heaven and caught up into paradise. This whole matter was in his mind; he said that the ethnarch of Aretas the king sought to take him; he made a point of that.

J.E. In verse 9 it says, "And he was three days without seeing, and neither ate nor drank". Does that time of fasting make way for spiritual history being made?

J.T.Jr. That shows the early work in his soul, and we all should have some experience of that kind. There should be some experience in our early history when our wills were broken, and the evidence of that should remain with us.

T.N.W. I wonder if there was something like that supposed in the expression: "He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit"? 1 Corinthians 6:17. It is a kind of mysterious expression.

J.T.Jr. The lordship of Christ is in mind. It is a question of His lordship controlling us, through understanding His commandments, and we come into that wonderful position of being "one Spirit".

Rem. There is evidence that our wills are broken if we move acceptably with the brethren. Saul is seen as being perfectly amenable to the brethren, and ready to be cared for by them.

A.B.P. Is not Barnabas worthy of favourable comment in that he discerned Saul's reality? The brethren, generally, were afraid of him.

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J.T.Jr. Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles.

A.B.P. Yes; the brethren "were afraid of him, not believing that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles". This seems to be in keeping with what is said about Barnabas later, that he was a good man.

J.T.Jr. He recognized in this great gift God's sovereign rights. There should be this recognition amongst us also.

Ques. And should we not keep up-to-date with what God is doing in the souls of one another? The brethren evidently had not kept up-to-date with God's work in Saul.

J.H.E. The secret history with God, which Paul refers to in Galatians where he speaks of Arabia, is also necessary. He said that he did not confer with flesh and blood, but went to Arabia (Galatians 1:17).

J.T.Jr. I am sure that secret history is needed. If we have never had it, there is still time yet to get it. We learn things in the presence of God.

W.W.M. It seems that Saul was received at Damascus but at Jerusalem they were afraid of him. Possibly there was more of a religious atmosphere in Jerusalem than at Damascus, which prevented spiritual discernment.

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MAN (28)

2 Corinthians 10:1 - 18; 2 Corinthians 11:1 - 33; 2 Corinthians 12:1 - 10.

J.T. The thought of manhood as seen in Paul is in mind.

J.T.Jr. The apostle's frequent allusions to himself in these chapters would bring out certain thoughts of manhood?

J.T. He was a gifted man; it is a great matter that God has set gift amongst His people.

S.C.M. The apostle alludes to himself as, "I myself, Paul". The Lord Jesus also said, "It is I myself", Luke 24:39.

J.T. It is to emphasise the personage.

S.C.M. With Paul, the "I myself" would be that which was inwrought by the Spirit; he would not refer to himself in a fleshly way but to spiritual formation. It is manhood according to God.

D.P. The subject of manhood as seen in Paul is very instructive. We get a good lead in Paul.

B.H.W. Would there be a link with Romans 7:25: "I myself with the mind serve God's law"?

J.T.Jr. The apostle is bringing his mind into prominence there.

J.T. Yes; the mind is an immense thing with God; we have the expression, "the mind of Christ", 1 Corinthians 2:16 which is a wonderful phrase.

A.B.P. Would you say that in Romans 7 the believer is becoming aware of the spiritual personality that is being formed in him? Here it seems to be personality in the mature sense at the end of the journey.

J.LeP. Do we have maturity in Paul in this chapter and also in John in Revelation 22:8 where he says, "I, John, was he who heard and saw these things", Revelation 22:8. The Lord is coming, and he says, "I Jesus", and "I am the root and offspring of David", Revelation 22:16. Paul

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speaks of a man in Christ caught up to the third heaven and into paradise. Are not all these utterances stressing the need of mature spiritual personality in these days, so that we might be ready to be translated to heaven?

J.H.E. It says in our chapter, "For walking in flesh, we do not war according to flesh. For the arms of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds; overthrowing reasonings and every high thing that lifts itself up against the knowledge of God, and leading captive every thought into the obedience of the Christ", 2 Corinthians 10:3 - 5. Everything is to be settled before the Lord comes. The apostle has in mind to avenge all disobedience.

J.T. That is in keeping with what we have before us.

A.R. Is Paul calling attention to himself, and not exactly to his gift; it is more himself, his personality?

J.T.Jr. The person is the gift.

A.R. That is what I thought; he himself is the gift. We are privileged to take account of one and another in that sense, as gifts to the assembly. Personality would be seen in such.

J.T.Jr. Do you mean that Paul was a special gift?

A.R. Yes, and there is gift in the assembly now.

S.C.M. Does that fit in with the beginning of Paul's history? The Lord said of him, "This man is an elect vessel to me", Acts 9:15. What Paul says here proves him to be a chosen vessel, and other special gifts to the assembly have proven by their doctrine and manner of life that they were chosen also.

A.P. Paul acquired his name in Acts 13, where it is said, "But Saul, who also is Paul ..." Acts 13:9. I suppose that the work of God developed in his soul, so that his name was changed.

J.T. Yes, that is manhood seen in Paul, but there is no reference to what is feminine there; however,

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we understand that woman is included in the general thought of man; we must understand that.

F.N.W. There are many brethren here today, and I suppose that all are needed in the testimony; but is it not the divine way to use a special vessel like Paul to help brothers and sisters alike, to develop features of spiritual manhood, thus preparing us for our place in heaven?

J.T. Yes; brothers and sisters; both are included.

J.T.Jr. The apostle had the feminine thought in mind when he said, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ". The feminine side has in mind what we are as subject to Christ.

W.W.M. One of the greatest expressions that Paul uses has been read here this afternoon: "I know a man in Christ", 2 Corinthians 12:2. And then he says, later, "I know such a man". That is the kind of man that we are to think about; the manhood that is developed by the Spirit.

J.T. Quite so; and it is important to stress that God is including the sisters in the sons. They are sons of God.

E.E.H. When Paul entreats the Corinthians "by the meekness and gentleness of the Christ", 2 Corinthians 10:1 does he imply that these qualities were formed in himself also? Was he like Christ, in that way? The Lord said, "I am meek and lowly in heart", Matthew 11:29. Meekness and gentleness were found in Christ, and Paul seems to have taken on these features.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. Paul says, "Ye are all God's sons by faith in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:26. It has been said that we do not fully understand sonship, but I wonder if it is a question of getting more light in our souls about it.

J.T. Quite so; "Ye are all ... sons". Thank God for the number of the dear brethren who are here

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today! I hope everyone will give thanks for it, because it glorifies God. We are all His, who have the Spirit, and we are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

J.T.Jr. You are stressing the thought of the sisters because we might think of manhood as apart from them. Is that what you have in mind?

J.T. Just so.

J.T.Jr. All the Corinthians were in Paul's mind in the sense that he desired to get them all into these great thoughts as to "a man in Christ", 2 Corinthians 12:2.

E.A.L. In Matthew 19:6 the Lord says, "So that they are no longer two, but one flesh", Matthew 19:6. That is quoted from Genesis 2:24. But does it connect with Genesis 1:26, showing how the woman has part in the great thought of man?

J.T. Quite so.

E.E.H. Will you help as to what is involved in the thought of "a man in Christ"? 2 Corinthians 12:2.

J.T. It is a wonderful thought; Christ is a Man, of course; He is God, too; a wonderful thing which would cause us to fall down and worship. But this is "in Christ", and refers to Christ's present position.

J.H.E. We could only know Christ's glory by revelation. When Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", the Lord told him that "flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 16:17. It was revealed to Peter by the Father.

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. To confirm what you have been saying as to the feminine side, Paul arriving at Corinth, found "a certain Jew by name Aquila ... and Priscilla his wife", Acts 18:2. His wife is mentioned as having part in the testimony.

J.T. That was before us years ago; his wife shared with Aquila in their unique place in the testimony. And that is what we are stressing now,

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that the wife, as well as the husband, is to be intelligently in things.

A.P. In Romans 16 they are referred to as Paul's "fellow-workmen in Christ Jesus", Romans 16:3.

J.T. One of the things that God has asserted recently is the great thought of manhood as inclusive of the woman. It is for us to take note of this, especially the sisters, so that they should fill out the place God has given them.

A.R. Paul says in Galatians 3:28, "There is no Jew nor Greek; there is no bondman nor freeman; there is no male and female; for ye are all one in Christ Jesus", Galatians 3:28.

J.T. That is just the thought, the full truth, "ye are all one in Christ Jesus".

Rem. There is an exercise with some of us, who are younger and have children, as to fathers and mothers getting out to the meetings together and God is helping us in it.

J.T. I am sure that He is helping us.

Rem. In some localities the numbers at the readings and the prayer meetings are reduced somewhat because husbands and wives alternate in getting to the meetings, but it is right that, if possible, both should be out.

E.A.L. When the matter of sisters coming to the care meeting was brought up it was stated that, characteristically, the husband should be there and the wife, if possible. The sisters are to be there supportively, but each brother should be there to participate, if required.

Rem. The apostle Peter refers to a husband and wife as fellow heirs of the grace of life. They are to share spiritual things.

J.T.Jr. In Ephesians husbands, wives, and children are addressed. They are in the apostle's mind, so that what you have in mind is to bring the wives into the truth as well as the husbands.

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J.T. I have had that in my mind for many years. When I came into fellowship and was first married it was my exercise that my wife come into the whole matter.

A.R. And what has been remarked as to husbands, wives, and children precedes the thought that we are all to arrive at the full grown man.

J.T. Which would include the sisters. It would include everybody in fellowship and having the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. There is the matter of knowing. Paul said, "I know a man in Christ", 2 Corinthians 12:2. Would it not be a question of all of us having that knowledge? Knowing a man in Christ would be a question of spiritual intelligence and experience.

J.T. Yes. There are many young people here who would do well to take that on fully, for it refers to what can be reached, in measure, by all.

A.B.P. Had conditions developed at Corinth so that manhood, as seen in the apostle, was not appreciated? Would it show that a low state in the saints may lead to a critical attitude toward the features of true manhood?

J.T. Quite so.

A.B.P. Should we not be looking for the features of God's work in one another rather than being unduly occupied with what is negative? The positive features which come out in this chapter were being expressed in Paul all the time but the critical persons in Corinth were unaware of it.

J.T. Very good.

S.C.M. Would the apostle's reference to the arms of our warfare not being fleshly, but powerful according to God to the overthrow of strongholds, make room for the Spirit, so that spiritual manhood can be formed in the saints?

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J.T. Just so.

R.W.S. In his first epistle the apostle speaks of babes in Christ. He is going on to the full thought of a man in Christ in this epistle.

S.W. It is evident that the apostle here is speaking of himself as "a man in Christ". We should know our spiritual capacity. Paul had access to the great realm of things in heaven as caught up there.

A.R. You have suggested that Paul was caught up as far as the third heaven, meaning that there were limitations, but he was taken as far as the third heaven.

J.T. Very good; these are great matters, linking us on with heavenly places. I was thinking about Mr. Darby today in relation to this meeting -- as to what he would think of what we are saying. I believe he would rejoice with us.

F.H.L. In chapter 5 it says, "If anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation", 2 Corinthians 5:17. That would be a little different from "a man in Christ" which we get in this chapter, but it would be akin to it.

D.Macd. The same expression that is used by Paul here, as to being caught up, applies to the assembly. We are to be "caught up together". Paul was caught up, and we are to be caught up.

J.T. Quite so; "caught up together". That includes all -- men, women and children, those who have the Spirit. And so we ought to rejoice that we have so many brethren here today from various parts, and a good number of young ones, for, as having the Spirit they belong to the saints of God.

D.Macd. And they will be caught up, brothers, sisters, and children.

J.T. Yes; it rejoices our hearts to think that they belong to us and all who have the Spirit will go with us.

Rem. It is said that when Paul left Tyre, in Acts 21:5: "But when we had completed the days, we set out and took our journey, all of them accompanying us, with wives and children, till we were out of the city", Acts 21:5

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And we have them with us today.

J.T. Very good; of course we would have to distinguish between those who have the Spirit and those who may not have the Spirit. We have to determine whether or not our children have the Spirit.

J.T.Jr. It is good to bring all into the realm and influence of divine things, even though they have not the Spirit, so that the young ones here are in a good place.

J.T. And the wives, too.

J.T.Jr. Eve is referred to in chapter 11; Paul has in mind the assembly in the feminine sense as the wife. Eve was deceived, and that was his great fear as to the Corinthians.

J.T. It was a great comfort to me many years ago, after I came into fellowship, that the wives come into things, too; they come into the truth.

J.T.Jr. Your exercise is, therefore, that we should have our wives with us in divine things.

J.T. Yes; in the truth, and thoroughly with us.

W.W.M. And should it not be an exercise with us all that we should have reading and prayer in our households. We get help there, householdly.

J.T. I am sure that is important.

W.W.M. The apostle Paul said, in regard to the thorn for the flesh, that the Lord told him, "My grace suffices thee; for my power is perfected in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather boast in my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may dwell upon me", 2 Corinthians 12:9. And he also said to the Philippians, "Not that I speak as regards privation, for as to me I have learnt in those circumstances in which I am, to be satisfied in myself", Philippians 4:11. That would suggest real manhood developed in him.

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J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. There is a feminine touch at Philippi. We have Lydia in Acts 16; she is an example of what we are saying as to the feminine side.

R.W.S. Job's wife was a poor comfort to him. She says, "Dost thou still remain firm in thine integrity? curse God and die. But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips", Job 2:9,10. Job's wife was a foolish woman; and the Spirit of God never mentions her again.

F.N.W. In writing to the Philippians the apostle says, "I ask thee also, true yokefellow, assist them, who have contended along with me in the glad tidings" Philippians 4:3. He refers to women.

J.T. Very good; I thank God for the whole matter that has come up as to the sisters today, because it is so important.

S.W. You have in mind that as the sisters take on the features of spiritual manhood the position becomes greatly strengthened and enriched?

J.T. Indeed, and why should it not be? They can do much, as we could easily point out from the Scriptures if we had time to do so.

E.A.L. There are some brothers who freely circulate from meeting to meeting and are a help. In some cases their wives go with them and they are appreciated as supporting the testimony.

Rem. The Lord said to Paul, I have much people in this city.

J.T. Yes; much people; that would include women as well as men.

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MAN (29)

Acts 13:1 - 52.

J.T. I suppose we could not do better than to pursue the thought of manhood as seen in Paul.

J.T.Jr. Do we see him in relation to the assembly in this chapter?

J.T. Just so; it says, "Now there were in Antioch, in the assembly which was there ..." The assembly was there and there were prophets and teachers.

J.T.Jr. Are these seen in their local setting?

J.T. Yes; it is a very good opening for our consideration. It goes on to say, "And as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting ..." That is a very good beginning -- they were ministering to the Lord; the Lord's authority is clearly recognised; He was with them. And the reference to fasting is a fine word.

A.N.W. In that local setting the apostle is mentioned last; and then the first and the last mentioned emerge together as "the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul". In verse 13 he further emerges into a special place, "Paul and his company".

J.T. Paul is specially brought before us.

A.N.W. It is interesting, also, that it says, in verse 9, "Saul, who also is Paul". I thought the Spirit would bring him forward in that way.

J.T. And the statement, "Paul and his company" is to be specially noted.

Ques. Gifts were set in the assembly for the edifying of the body of Christ till all should arrive at the full-grown man. Is that inaugurated here in Paul and those that were with him at Antioch? And does it lead on to the full-grown man as seen in Paul?

J.T. The full-grown man is the thing to be occupied with: "Until we all arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ", Ephesians 4:13.

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The full-grown man can be relied upon; a man of truth and righteousness; "created in truthful righteousness and holiness", Ephesians 4:24.

D.Macd. When it says, "Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit ...", does that bring in the idea of the full-grown man?

J.T. Just so; and "who also is Paul" must suggest that some distinction is apprehended as to this remarkable man; he is, in principle, a full-grown man.

L.W. Is fasting a feature of manhood which makes way for the Spirit? It says of these men, that "as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said ...". I was wondering if this feature makes room for the Spirit to speak in the assembly.

J.T. Just so; the Holy Spirit came down from heaven. I just wonder how much we know about the Holy Spirit as come down from heaven; He regulates everything in relation to God and His service, and fasting makes room for the Spirit.

W.W.M. Do you mean that on account of their fasting the Holy Spirit had greater opportunity, and that if we knew more about fasting the Spirit would have greater place with us all?

J.T. It means sacrifice; you sacrifice when you fast; you make way for something in yourself in view of having more power.

W.W.M. It has been said that fasting is refraining from what would be legitimate.

Ques. You have said that literal fasting from food is proper in an individual sense; would it also be carried out collectively according to this scripture? It would appear that they were doing it collectively here.

J.T. Did you ever fast?

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Rem. No, not as to food.

J.T. We cannot reach manhood unless we fast. When you fast you make way for God to work; you learn to give up what is of yourself; and in giving up what is of yourself you become a man. That is how it works and that is the way God works. So that God is going to fill the heavens with men.

Rem. I would like to know if that principle can be carried out in our local settings in a collective way in view of difficulties being met.

J.T. I think God honours such; we experienced it some years ago in this city. The brethren here joined together in fasting and God helped us. And if the saints are ready to do it, I believe God will help us. There would be more manhood with us if we knew more about fasting.

L.W. You mean collectively?

J.T. Certainly.

L.W. It was brought before us recently in Ezra 8:21: "And I proclaimed a fast there, at the river Ahava, that we might humble ourselves before our God, to seek of him a right way for us, and for our little ones, and for all our substance". That was collective fasting.

S.C.M. Do we see something reached in Hannah? It says of her that she "went her way, and did eat, and her countenance was no more as before", 1 Samuel 1:18. Previously she did not eat; she saw the need of a man child and she fasted on that account. But now, because her desire is fulfilled, it says, "She ... did eat".

A.N.W. Anna, the very elderly widow in Luke, is singled out as fasting; though aged she was "serving night and day with fastings and prayers", Luke 2:37.

A.P. Is it, then, intended that fasting should be literal, and that it should be carried out by us; that we should abstain from eating when conditions call for it?

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J.T. Yes; surely, fasting is a real matter.

F.N.W. Are we to understand that the five brothers in our chapter, who were ministering to the Lord and fasting, would suggest that some take it on and give a lead in the matter?

J.T. Well, the point is, let us try it, and I believe something will come out of it.

A.P. It may be that we should take it on in connection with the union matter.

E.A.L. The trade union matter affects those who labour with their hands, generally, but we may need to be concerned, also, as to directorships, partnerships, and professional associations.

J.T.Jr. Fasting would develop great power in Paul. He had great power as being full of the Holy Spirit. "But Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit ..." He dealt with this difficult matter in great power.

J.H.H. Peter knew something of the value of fasting in Acts 10, where it says that he was hungry and desired to eat. He became in an ecstasy on the roof-top.

A.N.W. Would the defection with John Mark develop from too much consideration for himself? It is simply stated in this chapter that he left them, but Paul discloses later that he abandoned the work. He probably was considering too much for himself.

J.T. So it says: "And they had John also as their attendant". That is John Mark, and he "separated from them and returned to Jerusalem", according to verse 13. But then we have reference to the proconsul in verse 7: "Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man". That is to be noted; it is a fine word. "He, having called Barnabas and Saul to him, desired to hear the word of God". And then, later, when Elymas the magician opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul from the faith, it says, "Saul, who also is Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eves upon him, said ..."

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It was after this that John separated from them and returned to Jerusalem.

Ques. Does Paul's preaching serve as an example for us all who preach?

J.T. I think it does; he was a man thoroughly versed in the scriptures and able to speak the word of God. The thought of the word of God was in his heart.

Rem. In Antioch of Pisidia (verse 14) the people were going along with the law and prophets which, it says, they read on the sabbath, but Paul brought them up to date as to what had transpired. He spoke of the death and resurrection of Christ.

F.N.W. Would the power which Paul has in this chapter, both in meeting the attack of Satan and in speaking of the word of God, flow out of this exercise of fasting and prayer?

J.T. Say more.

F.N.W. I would like to know if fasting should be taken on with a specific exercise in view. When the Spirit called Barnabas and Saul it says of the brethren, "Then, having fasted and prayed, and having laid their hands on them, they let them go".

J.T. Yes; we can look for the Spirit of God to come in and act.

S.C.M. The fasting is referred to first, before the prayer, as though it took precedence.

J.T. I would say that; it is to emphasise the fasting, I would say.

J.T.Jr. Ministering to the Lord comes first in verse 2, and is linked on with fasting; they would go together. The great thought of lordship is brought in.

J.T. Quite so; ministering to the Lord is a peculiar service which appeals to the believer.

J.T.Jr. Yes; it means that you have the Lord before you in a definite way.

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A.N.W. Is there any suggestion that we should come together for the purpose of fasting? Is that implied in verse 3?

J.T. It is a matter that we should take on when required and the wives and the children ought to be led on in these matters too. And also in reading the Scriptures householdly each morning, husbands and wives and children should be in it.

A.N.W. I think we are challenged about this matter of fasting, and if there is any lead to be given about it, such as Ezra gave in chapter 8:21 of his book, I believe we would want to follow it.

Rem. In Esther 4:16, where it was a question of life and death, Esther said to Mordecai: "Go, gather together all the Jews that are found in Shushan, and fast for me", Esther 4:16.

Ques. Do you think that the principle of self-sacrifice which underlies fasting should be characteristic of us? Should it mark us in relation to getting to the meetings, overcoming weather conditions, rising early in the morning in order to read the ministry and the like? We would thus get the truth on the principle of sacrifice.

J.T. Yes, it is good to give a lead in that.

E.A.L. In Revelation 2:17 it says, "To him that overcomes, to him will I give of the hidden manna", Revelation 2:17. Would that be the food that would be available to us if we fasted?

J.T. That is a beautiful word, and it goes on to speak of the white stone and a new name.

A.N.W. Fasting, in principle, would be starving the flesh; that is what is needed. It has been said that if we shut the flesh out we bring God in. Fasting empowers us to bring God in in prayer.

A.R. It says in the prophet Jonah that "the men of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth", Jonah 3:5. But the first thing is that they believed God.

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S.C.M. Persons may fast without having any definite exercise, but if fasting results from believing God and being faced with something to be worked out, it is a real matter.

J.T. I believe that the brethren will come to it.

Rem. In Matthew 6 it says, "When ye fast, be not as the hypocrites ... anoint thy head and wash thy face, so that thou mayest not appear fasting unto men, but to thy Father who is in secret" Matthew 6:16 - 18.

J.T.Jr. Attention has been called to this "intelligent man" in verse 7. The magician tried to turn him aside. Intelligent men who desire to hear the word of God are scarce today.

A.R. And, according to verse 12, he believed, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord.

J.T.Jr. The evil man is set aside, the man "full of all deceit and all craft".

L.W. Would fasting be involved in seeking God out as in Hebrews 11:6? "He that draws near to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out", Hebrews 11:6.

J.T. It would develop a better class of men.

J.T.Jr. Do you mean that we would be better men if we knew more of this?

J.T. Quite so.

J.H.H. When the disciples were exercised about lack of power to cast the demon out of a boy, they asked the Lord privately, "Wherefore could not we cast him out? And he said to them, This kind can go out by nothing but by prayer and fasting", Mark 9:28,29. That power comes by prayer and fasting.

J.T. Just so.

D.MacD. The examples of fasting which have come before us tonight have been in relation to very specific and definite exercises. Would it not seem that the time to fast is in relation to specific and

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definite exercises which come up and where power is needed?

J.T. Very good.

J.T.Jr. It seems to be the state of the assembly at Antioch. They were going on that way; it was a normal feature of the assembly; they were ministering to the Lord and fasting.

A.B.P. Is it not true that christianity is founded on the principle of self-denial and that it should be a well-known thing to us? Our dispensation was inaugurated by Jesus giving Himself and selling all that He had; the Father spared not His Son but delivered Him up for us all; and the principle on which the Spirit is here is that He is sent and given. And does that not involve that we are to be unselfish?

J.T. Yes; unselfishness marks the dispensation.

A.B.P. Fasting would fit into the principle of unselfishness or self-denial.

J.T.Jr. So that fasting and self-denial and self-sacrifice are reached through the teaching of Romans 7 which leads to self-judgment, the emptying of oneself.

A.P. Would John Mark's failure to go all the way be because he was not on the line of fasting?

J.T. I believe the Lord will listen to a fasting people.

A.R. If we do not understand what it is to be delivered from ourselves as reaching the "O wretched man that I am!", Romans 7:24 we cannot be truly self-denying. It is there we feel the need of deliverance from self.

J.T. Quite so; you have the basis for true manhood there.

W.W.M. There is a striking passage in Isaiah 58:6,7: "Is not this the fast which I have chosen: to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the thongs of the yoke, and to send forth free the crushed, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring to thy house the needy wanderers; when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?".

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A.R. I suppose the idea of manhood comes before us uniquely in verse 22: "I have found David, the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who shall do all my will". The Lord comes in through that line, does He not?

J.T. Quite so; a man after my heart. And then, "Of this man's seed according to promise has God brought to Israel a Saviour, Jesus". That is beautiful!

Rem. And then in verse 38 it says, "Be it known ... that through this man remission of sins is preached to you".

J.T. Yes; through "this man".

A.B.P. Does true manhood always direct our thoughts to "the man Christ Jesus"?

J.T. Yes; the Man Christ Jesus; that is the Man.

J.T.Jr. And so the Lord, in John 17, refers to "the men whom thou gavest me", John 17:6. It would be in His mind that there would be men, able to be alongside of Him, who would take on His thoughts and carry them through.

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MAN (30)

Luke 4:1 - 44

J.T.Jr. In the beginning of this chapter we see how the Lord had to do with the devil; the temptations show how He met him. We shall see also how He brought Peter into service, first having to do with his house, and then in his boat. In the Lord's own life every contrary element was met. It says, "But Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness forty days, tempted of the devil", and then it says in verse 14, "And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee".

A.B.P. Would you say that the expression, "full of the Holy Spirit" was characteristic of Jesus? It was not necessary for Him to be filled by the Spirit, was it?

J.T.Jr. No; it would be characteristic of Him. I suppose, however, that there is a pattern in this for us, for all the way down in the history of the testimony the devil has had to be contended with.

A.R. He never met this kind of Man before. It says, "But Jesus ..."; this kind of Man had never been seen on earth before. After passing through all the temptations, it says, in verse 14, "And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee". The same character of power is seen at the end of this experience as at the beginning.

T.N.W. Is it right to stress manhood here? His deity is not in evidence although, of course, it is there.

J.T.Jr. He is a divine Person, of course, but in that He says, "Man shall not live by bread alone", it is evident that His manhood is particularly in mind. It says, in verse 2, "In those days he did not eat anything". That is, He was deprived of what ordinarily supports man, which He truly was.

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C.A.M. The Lord said, "The ruler of the world comes, and in me he has nothing", John 14:30. There was nothing in that holy Person that Satan could take advantage of.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, "in me he has nothing", whereas in ourselves there may be something that he can use.

C.A.M. It is a marvellous thing, is it not, that He alone went through this entire testing.

E.E.H. It was after man had failed that God said, "In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread", Genesis 3:19. The Lord Jesus indicates here that bread is not the only food for life. It is in dependence upon God, and in obedience to His will, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Yes, He says, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God".

E.E.H. Man failed initially in not adhering to the word of God, but the Lord Jesus links life with "every word of God".

F.N.W. Why did not the Lord eat in those days?

J.T.Jr. Well, I suppose it was to show that He was able to fast; it was for forty days; it was a very extended period, involving, I suppose, a complete test in the natural sense; the Lord was a real Man, and it says that He was tempted of the devil. It was a complete test -- "forty days, tempted of the devil".

A.N.W. It can be said that while the enemy does not know everything, he did know that Jesus was hungry; he seized that moment to make the attack.

J.T.Jr. You mean that he would attack Him when He was weak?

A.N.W. Well, I thought so; making the test more difficult but perfect in its result. Jesus hungered, and the devil says, "If thou be Son of God, speak to this stone, that it become bread". The Lord could have done this, but how beautiful the answer, "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God".

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J.T.Jr. It says, in verse 13, "The devil, having completed every temptation, departed from him for a time". It would bring out the fulness of the temptation.

F.H.L. This first great test evidently was to see if Jesus could be taken out of the path of dependent manhood. If He used His power to relieve His need, He would be taking Himself out of that pathway.

J.T.Jr. He did not take Himself out of the path of God's will. It says that He "was led by the Spirit in the wilderness forty days". It is the thought of manhood, I suppose, that man should be led by the Spirit.

J.H.E. It says in Romans, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" Romans 8:14. Satan said, "If thou be Son of God".

J.T.Jr. His sonship, therefore, hinged upon His manhood, for immediately the Lord says, "Man shall not live by bread alone".

L.W. In the Lord's being full of the Holy Spirit, there was nothing that had to be displaced. With us there is that which does have to be displaced.

J.T.Jr. Well, I suppose that is what is in mind in the reference to Simon Peter in chapter 5. He needed to be adjusted. And we have to be adjusted in relation to this great matter of manhood; while we are men and women, in the ordinary sense, we need to come to God's great thought as to man, as the Lord emphasised here: "Man shall not live by bread alone".

Rem. The Lord is the great Model for us in the way He does everything, for all His replies are from the word of God.

A.N.W. The Lord would not be diverted from Deuteronomy. The enemy quoted from the Psalms, but the Lord again quoted from Deuteronomy.

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A.B.P. Is it not noteworthy that when Satan says, "It is written", the Lord says, "It is said"? Would that not bring in the spoken word?

J.T.Jr. Well, I suppose the force is the same; both have divine authority.

A.B.P. I thought there was a link with man living by God's words. It says in Matthew 4:4, "By every word which goes out through God's mouth", Matthew 4:4 as though it is a current matter. That would be fresh speaking.

J.T.Jr. Yes; but based upon Scripture. Therefore the great need of the Scriptures, "It is written".

J.H.E. The fact that we are exhorted to be filled with the Spirit implies that we are not filled, and it means that we have first to be emptied.

J.T.Jr. Well, we do need to be emptied, and I think Peter comes to that in chapter 5, but what comes out first of all is the devil's activities and they have been going on all the way down in history. He was especially active in regard to the Lord at this point, and then it says that he departed from Him for a time. He was to return again; evidently he returned to bring the power of death to bear on the Lord's spirit in Gethsemane. The enemy is busy all the time; he is against the testimony. The Lord is in heaven now, and the enemy is against the testimony, but the Spirit is able for all these things; it is a question of the Spirit now. It says that Jesus was led by the Spirit in the wilderness.

D.Macd. You mentioned that the Spirit is able to meet Satan's efforts. Do we see that in Acts 13? It says, "Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixing his eyes upon him, said, O full of all deceit and all craft: son of the devil", Acts 13:9,10.

J.T.Jr. Yes; Satan was using a man to obstruct the testimony and to obstruct Paul in his ministry, but the Spirit is able for these things. The Spirit of

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God is here in the assembly, therefore the enemy will not succeed.

A.R. Do the first fifteen verses of our chapter bear on the power of the Spirit inwardly? The chapter begins with "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit" -- and in verse 14, "And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee". But verse 18 says, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me". That would be external -- the anointing.

J.T.Jr. Quite; so that the testimony comes out now; the devil has been met; he was not able to stand before the Lord -- he "departed from him" and the Lord immediately began His wonderful service in the gospel. So it says, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me", That would be the outward expression of power; the first part of the chapter deals with inward power in the Lord, in the wilderness; but here, when it is a question of testimony, He is anointed. "He has anointed me to preach". The power of the Spirit is in evidence in a formal outward way, in the testimony.

Ques. Is it important to observe that the test came before the service?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the Lord was tested supremely here but, as has been remarked, He "returned in the power of the Spirit".

D.P. Did the enemy realise that there is a Man on the scene that he could not overcome?

J.T.Jr. That was so; there was a Man on the scene that Satan could not overcome; I think what corresponds to that now is the assembly. The gates of hades shall not prevail against it; the Spirit is in the assembly.

Rem. And so in Revelation 12, the dragon did not overcome the woman (figurative of Israel): "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth", Revelation 12:16.

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A.B.P. The Lord's own words in relation to the temptation were, "Unless first he bind the strong man", Matthew 12:29. It was more than Satan not being able to overcome, but He overcame Satan.

J.T.Jr. I would say that; it says, "And the devil, having completed every temptation, departed from him for a time".

E.A.L. What would you say about the three positions given here: first as to the bread, then being taken up into a high mountain, and finally to the edge of the temple?

J.T.Jr. I suppose it is to bring out that the Lord has been "tempted in all things in like manner" Hebrews 4:15 as we are. The Spirit can bring us through, but we must acknowledge our own weakness. The Lord was in complete victory.

Ques. Was the victory also seen in Stephen? In Acts 7 he is full of faith and the Holy Spirit.

J.T.Jr. He was martyred, of course; he gave his life in the testimony.

F.N.W. Would there be, in these forty days of temptation, a testimony to the Lord's personal power over Satan, and would the forty days after His resurrection be a testimony to the power that is here in the testimony in virtue of His resurrection?

J.T.Jr. Well, the forty days after His resurrection were to establish the disciples in the pathway, to assure them that He was risen from the dead and was going into heaven; so that they would know Him in resurrection life. But here He is seen as meeting the power of the devil, which is what we must face, also.

A.R. The disciples were instructed to wait in Jerusalem until the Spirit came down.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, the Spirit came down and He is here now. We should be encouraged by the fact that the Lord Jesus is in heaven but the Spirit is

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here; the Spirit of God is here and He is able to meet every situation that the devil might bring up.

A.N.W. The Lord did not meet the devil in the exercise of His deity, if I may say so, but as Man; so that He defeated him in the power of the Spirit and by the use of the Scriptures.

J.T.Jr. Is not this then a pattern for us, the Spirit of God being here?

F.H.L. The enemy misused the Scriptures. This is being done today, in principle, in regard to the ministry. Letters have been written in certain places trying to undermine the truth.

S.C.M. The enemy would use Peter to rebuke the Lord when He spoke of going up to Jerusalem to die. The Lord said, "Get away behind me, Satan; thou art an offence to me, for thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men", Matthew 16:23.

A.B.P. Is it your thought that the temptations suggest that we, in our private lives, are to be dependent upon the Spirit of God that we may overcome Satan's temptations in order to be free for service?

J.T.Jr. That is what I thought. The Lord gives us that lead as led by the Spirit. He was full of the Holy Spirit, and then His ministry was in power. The ministry is seen in verses 17 - 19, where it says, "And the book of the prophet Esaias was given to him; and having unrolled the book he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach glad tidings to the poor; he has sent me to preach to captives deliverance". That is a great thought -- to preach to captives deliverance; "and to the blind sight, to send forth the crushed delivered". These things were in the Lord's mind, for He was to do them in His ministry and service. And then, finally, "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord".

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A.B.P. So that effectual service flows out of walking in the Spirit in our ordinary lives. Then we can use the Scriptures, as led by the Spirit, and be able to say, "To-day this scripture is fulfilled in your ears". The Spirit must be wholly free in us to get a distinct word which has its direct bearing at a given time.

J.T.Jr. I think that is good; the scripture is fulfilled. The meetings that we have would make way for the Scriptures, for we have them in our hands as the Lord did, and as the Spirit is free He opens them up to us.

F.N.W. "The word that I covenanted with you ... and my Spirit, remain among you: fear ye not", Haggai 2:5.

J.T.Jr. "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts", Zechariah 4:6.

Rem. "Subject yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you", James 4:7. There is the thought of victory in that.

J.T.Jr. Yes; resist the devil and he will flee.

T.N.W. Can we do that on the basis that the Lord Jesus has taken away his panoply in which he trusted? That is an accomplished matter, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; and what the Lord accomplished here in His life is now, in a sense, to be continued in the assembly; we see things accomplished through Paul; there is fulfilled responsibility. Responsibility was fulfilled in persons spoken of in the Acts and responsibility is to be fulfilled in us, too. "The righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us", Romans 8:4. The Spirit of God is here and we should see that things to be done are fulfilled, and needs amongst us met.

A.B.P. When the seven sons of Sceva attempted to use the name of Jesus the wicked spirit said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I am acquainted with; but ye, who are ye?" Acts 19:15. What we see in the

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Lord Jesus is carried into christianity by Paul, in measure.

J.T.Jr. And also the passage referred to, in Acts 13, tells us how Paul met the man who opposed the word of God: "O full of all deceit and all craft: son of the devil, enemy of an righteousness", Acts 13:10. Paul met him in the power of the Spirit, for he was "filled with the Holy Spirit".

Ques. It says in Ephesians, "We are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has before prepared that we should walk in them" Ephesians 2:10. Do we see here the works which were before prepared?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; they came out in Christ; "God has before prepared" them. Now we are to walk in them.

A.R. In verse 33 of our chapter the Lord deals with a man with an unclean demon. I was wondering if this bears on what man's condition is as under Satan's domination.

J.T.Jr. Do you not think that what is stressed is the power there was in Jesus to deal with the case?

A.R. I was wondering about that; the power to clear the scene of Satan's domination of man.

J.T.Jr. The chapter shows how the Lord met the devil's power in the wilderness, in the mountain, and in Jerusalem. The whole matter is settled, really, in that Satan was defeated. Healing the man with an unclean demon would be but a matter of detail. The man needed to be delivered and the power was there in Christ to deal with the unclean spirit.

A.R. So that verse 36 says, "What word is this? for with authority and power he commands the unclean spirits, and they come out". That power has not been diminished, has it?

J.T.Jr. So that the whole matter is that there is power to deal with everything that may arise. That

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is what we are to understand now, for as we get on to the end of the dispensation, the power against us may increase. We do not know what form it may take, but there is power here, in the Spirit, that is able to deal with it. There is the One who restrains.

A.N.W. Whether in the case of the demon-possessed man or the bad fever in Peter's house, the power is there to deal with it.

J.T.Jr. Yes.

A.R. Have you something in mind about Simon's house? It says, "And rising up out of the synagogue, he entered into the house of Simon. But Simon's mother-in-law was suffering under a bad fever" (chapter 4:38).

J.T.Jr. Well; I thought we should see how Peter comes into the service. The Lord's service is before us here, but Peter is to be brought into it. The Lord went into Simon's house, as He might do in any one of our houses. The Lord is able to enter a house and deal with conditions in it. There is no question but that the thing was dealt with; "He rebuked the fever, and it left her". It was dealt with.

A.R. How would the Lord enter a house today?

J.T.Jr. We cannot limit the Lord in what He will do, and the fact that He has gone up into heaven does not limit Him. But then, there is the question of the Spirit. The Lord is in heaven but the Spirit is here.

A.R. Would you look for such a feverish condition to be checked in our houses?

J.T.Jr. I believe the thought in the chapter is that there is power to deal with everything. The Lord's power was able to meet all that was in the devil, in unclean spirits, and even in the houses of the saints. But then there has been power with the ministers who have brought out the truth; power to deal with the enemy in what he is doing.

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A.R. What about Peter's mother-in-law?

J.T.Jr. Well, it is mother-in-law position, but the point is that there was fever there.

E.E.H. Luke 4 treats of what was in Peter's house, but chapter 5 deals with Peter personally. His house was adjusted, but he needed a personal adjustment.

J.T.Jr. Yes.

R.C.P. Would Peter's mother-in-law be one of the crushed persons sent forth delivered?

J.T.Jr. She was in a condition from which she needed deliverance. The Lord had read, "To send forth the crushed delivered". She was one who needed deliverance.

F.N.W. It says, "And forthwith standing up she served them". It was as though the Lord's service to persons was that they should become serviceable. Paul says of Onesimus, "Once unserviceable to thee, but now serviceable to thee and to me", Philemon 1:11.

A.N.W. The matter of the demon was a synagogue matter, but this bad fever was a household matter.

A.P. Does the fever suggest Satan's work?

J.T.Jr. Whatever the cause, she was suffering.

Ques. Would this bad fever interfere with Peter's ministry?

J.T.Jr. Well, I think it might; it is a question of how the Lord dealt with it. "They asked him for her".

S.C.M. We are told that the Lord came to undo the works of the devil. This would be detail work; at the cross He dealt with sin in its totality, but it has to be undone in detail in us.

J.T.Jr. So that in every matter that comes up there is power by the Spirit of God to deal with it.

F.H.L. If conditions are not right in a meeting we might trace the thing and find that conditions are not right in households.

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J.T.Jr. Quite so.

A.B.P. In the epistles the reference to those who are suited to have part in service brings in their households; it is a moral principle, that in view of liberation in service, households must be right.

J.T.Jr. The Lord is able to deal with everything. I think this passage would give us the clue in that it says, "They asked him for her".

Rem. About eleven times in Luke's gospel it is stated that the Lord entered into someone's house.

J.T.Jr. That would confirm what has been said as to the importance of our houses in relation to the testimony.

A.N. W. It says that Jesus rebuked the fever. He did not rebuke Simon's mother-in-law; he rebuked the condition.

J.T.Jr. Yes; that needed to be dealt with; it is that the person might be saved. Jesus stood over her; it was direct contact and it was successful. It would involve deliverance, I suppose. We may have been delivered from the world and be positionally right, but still need to be delivered from ourselves. The man in Romans 7 said, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death? I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord", Romans 7:24,25.

T.E.H. According to Matthew's narrative, He "touched her hand, and the fever left her, and she arose and served him" Matthew 8:15. Our chapter suggests that the brethren are to be served.

A.B.P. With respect to the disciples asking Jesus for Simon's mother-in-law, do you mean that we should be concerned about the prosperity of the testimony to the extent that disturbing matters in households should become the subject of collective prayer?

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J.T.Jr. I think we should find that the Lord would come in for us if we laid such matters before Him. The radio matter was a great concern, but the Lord has helped us; and He will help us in other matters, too. Moral issues are in mind and if we pray about them the Lord will come in. And so it says here, "Standing over her, he rebuked the fever, and it left her". It is a matter of what the Lord will do in such cases.

C.A.M. I think it is a very important matter that is being stressed; it was the Lord personally in the gospels, but with the Spirit here it is a matter of what is of Himself functioning in the saints..

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the Spirit helps us in these matters; and He will help us; He will adjust conditions as we humble ourselves before Him and bring Him into our exercises.

C.A.M. There is liable to be a tendency with many to make their experience the great matter in the gospels; but Christ personally is the theme of the gospels, and when we realise that that life is being reproduced in the saints it brings to light a mighty power that is here and available either to enter into a house or whatever the need may be.

J.T.Jr. Well, we should think of the Spirit being amongst us and how He will lead us as He led the Lord, as it says, "Jesus ... was led by the Spirit in the wilderness". That seems to be a pattern, to show how we are to be led in matters which come up amongst us. So that it is a question of the Spirit, and how He will act, as under the Lord, for the whole system is in mind; the Lord is in heaven and the Spirit is here, and the assembly is here, Thus the gates of hades shall not prevail against the assembly.

Rem. Your allusion to the whole system is helpful, It says, in Zechariah 3:2, "And Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan! Yea, Jehovah that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee!", Zechariah 3:2.

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And then, later, in chapter 4:6, it says, "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith Jehovah of hosts", Zechariah 4:6.

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MAN (31)

Luke 5:1 - 39.

J.T.Jr. This chapter brings Peter into the service, actively; verse 10 says, "And Jesus said to Simon, Fear not; henceforth thou shalt be catching men". Now Peter is to be in the service, catching men. It is noticeable how the thought of man comes into these paragraphs. Peter says, "I am a sinful man, Lord", then there is a man full of leprosy, and a paralysed man; and further, it says, "Man, thy sins are forgiven thee". I thought that all this would bring out that the thought of manhood was in the Lord's mind. The new skins at the end of the chapter are suggestive of the new man.

C.A.M. Is it the working out of the whole moral question in regard to man? We were speaking this afternoon about one Man in whom Satan found nothing, but with us the moral question has to be worked out.

J.T.Jr. Yes; this remarkable incident brings Peter to face the moral issue; he said, "I am a sinful man".

J.C. Would the incident show that the goodness of God leads to repentance?

J.T.Jr. Very good, I would say that, and that Peter dealt with the thing in himself.

A.N.W. Peter's remark individualises the man, does it not? There are others who are more or less affected: "And in like manner also on James and John, sons of Zebedee, who were partners with Simon". But Simon's word, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, Lord", individualises him, does it not?

J.T.Jr. Yes, especially Peter, for he was to have a great place in the testimony. The Lord does not commission James and John here; Simon is singled out.

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A.B.P. Would this word sinful be a direct contrast to being filled with the Spirit?

J.T.Jr. Yes, I would think so.

A.B.P. It suggests a vessel, does it not? "A sinful man", but repentant.

J.T.Jr. Yes; we may wonder why he should say this at this point, but it indicates what the Lord might use to bring us to a confession.

C.A.M. Is the idea of the vessel indicated by, "He saw two ships ... . And getting into one of the ships, which was Simon's ..."? Would that indicate that He had a vessel in mind in connection with Simon? It would raise a question in Simon's mind as to why his ship should be selected.

J.T.Jr. Yes; that would show that Peter had a special place in the Lord's mind. He was thinking of Peter. Paul had a special place, but Peter had a special place, too. The partners were there and they are brought into it, but Peter is singled out. I think it is to distinguish him, for the Lord had in mind to distinguish him.

J.H.E. In the Acts it says, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven ..." Acts 2:14. He evidently led in the partnership; the assembly is a partnership, is it not?

J.T.Jr. Yes, that would be a contrast to the ship, because the ship began to sink here; the vessel did not sink in the Acts. "The Lord added to the assembly daily those that were to be saved", Acts 2:47.

Ques. Earlier in that chapter it says that they were all filled with the Spirit. Is that the culmination of a work begun here?

J.T.Jr. Yes; the divine thought is that we are to be filled with the Spirit. Judaism was not able for this; something new was needed, so the Lord refers to the new skins.

A.R. I was wondering if our chapter had that in mind; there must be a new vessel to hold the new wine

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J.T.Jr. I believe that is what is in mind in the Acts. There was a new vessel and new wine. Peter, in recounting his vision, said that the vessel came "even to me". That is, the sheet that he saw came down from heaven, and he spoke of it in that way; "a certain vessel", Acts 11:5.

Rem. It was a great sheet; it was able to contain all that was in it.

J.T.Jr. Yes. The Lord used the ship here; that is He used judaism; He came into that and He used it. He spoke from the ship, but there was another vessel in His mind -- a vessel that would not sink.

C.A.M. Peter had to step out of the ship of judaism.

Rem. The net broke with the number of the fish, but in John's gospel where there were many great fish the net did not break; does that speak of the new order?

J.T.Jr. Yes; that is after the Lord had risen; the net does not break; the assembly therefore goes through. We should thus keep the assembly in mind, because it is the vessel in which the Spirit is at the present time.

A.B.P. Do we see progression in this chapter, in that Peter, once sinful, is made into a new vessel, ready for the new wine?

J.T.Jr. I would think so, for the education of Peter would be in mind. The Lord had taken him up and he was to be distinguished, and no doubt to fit him for the place that he was to have in relation to the great vessel, the assembly.

Rem. When the assembly is formed, in Acts 2, and Peter preaches, he first deals with the moral side, "Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", Acts 2:38.

J.T.Jr. That is right. It shows how Peter had been formed experimentally. In our chapter the

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Lord says, "Man, thy sins are forgiven thee". And the commission which the Lord gave the disciples in the last chapter of this book was "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name", Luke 24:47.

F.H.L. Peter had laboured all night, but the light broke in upon his soul in the presence of Christ.

J.T.Jr. Yes; no doubt labouring all night would allude to the general idea of judaism's plight; it could bear nothing.

J.H.E. The partners are working together here. It has been suggested that it may be Peter, Andrew, James and John of whom it is said, in verse 18, "And lo, men bringing upon a couch a man".

J.T.Jr. Yes; men is the point there; the Lord has men in mind. I suppose they came into that partnership really at Pentecost; it suggests the great thought of the apostles' fellowship.

Ques. Would you say that the beginning of manhood is seen in repentance or self-judgment and that we are to be maintained in that?

J.T.Jr. I think so, from our side. We could hardly come to what is substantial in our souls until we judge ourselves, although the abstract side must ever be before us as seen in Christ as an Object; that came before us in the previous chapter in the way Jesus rebuked the devil and in the way He ministered; He ministered in the power of the Spirit. It says that they pressed on Him to hear the word of God.

F.H.L. Would you distinguish between Peter falling at the Lord's knees, and the man full of leprosy falling upon his face?

J.T.Jr. Well, I suppose the position of Peter is distinctive; his name is given, whereas in the next incident it is "a man full of leprosy", and he effaces himself. Peter is singled out because of the special place the Lord had for him in the assembly.

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F.H.L. Would some light of the intercession of Christ be in Peter's soul?

J.T.Jr. You have in mind that he fell at Jesus' knees. It can be said that Peter was to learn what the knees of Jesus meant.

C.A.M. "I have prayed for thee", Luke 22:32 the Lord says to Peter later.

A.Macd. The recognition of the Lord's authority means blessing to our souls. Peter calls the Lord Master in verse 5, saying also, "At thy word I will let down the net". Twice in the previous chapter reference is made to the authority that marked His word, and Peter seems to recognise it.

J.T.Jr. That is a leading feature. We have to recognise that the Lord has authority, and that He has power to do things. And we are never left that we cannot do anything. The situation may look impossible, but the Lord has authority and He has power, and I think Peter recognised that.

E.A.L. Peter was an experienced fisherman who knew how to catch fish, but he was now to become a fisher of men.

J.T.Jr. Yes, he is now to catch men and we are in that light tonight; we have been caught. The great matter of the gospel involves that we are to catch men. God is not thinking about the fish; this great haul is just descriptive of what He has in mind as to men. The Lord had told Peter to draw out into the deep, no doubt involving the great scope of humanity.

A.R. Would Peter's confession suggest that he was conscious in his own soul that this Man was a divine Person and that He had control of the sea?

J.T.Jr. We need to keep that in mind; it is a question of the Lord's authority and power; we should rely upon Him in every situation. Peter brings in the thought of man when he says, "I am a sinful man".

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J.H.E. Peter uses the word "Master" also, which, according to the footnote, refers to the Lord's authority over others. He had some impression of the uniqueness of the Lord.

J.T.Jr. Yes; he had said, "Having laboured through the whole night we have taken nothing". They had accomplished nothing through having laboured all night. But at the Lord's word he let down the net. We are to look for the Lord's word.

A.N.W. The word "Master" as used in verse 5 is different from the word "Lord" in verse 8. In the latter verse Peter was conscious that he needed the Lord as Intercessor.

C.A.M. Does not this thought of Master, meaning one who is over others, link on with the previous chapter where it says that the Lord, "standing over" Luke 4:39. Peter's mother-in-law, rebuked the fever? Did not Peter get an impression in the house of what a Master of the situation Jesus was?

J.T.Jr. Yes; I suppose the fever represents a temporary condition. Jesus rebuked it and it left her. It is a solemn matter if things do not leave us. If they do not, they may not be a fever, but darkness and the working of the will so that God does not grant repentance. It says in Romans 11:22, "If thou shalt abide in goodness", Romans 11:22. If we do not abide in goodness we will be cut off.

A.N.W. So that the Lord did not rebuke Peter's mother-in-law. He rebuked the fever; He rebuked the condition and it left her.

J.T.Jr. Yes, quite so; it left her; the fever went out; it was not constitutional. The Lord may deal with what is constitutional, too. God hardened Pharaoh. Whom He will He hardens. The fever was not a constitutional matter.

T.E.H. Peter had a remarkable insight as to vessels of mercy being prepared for glory because he

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understood the idea of mercy from the very commencement of his links with the Lord.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; that comes out here. He says, "I am a sinful man, Lord". We should recognise the havoc sin has wrought in manhood, but that is the negative thought; God has in mind another order of man that has not to be governed by sin but by His will. "Whoever has been begotten of God does not practise sin", 1 John 3:9. So Peter says, "At thy word". That is a great thing to come to, to recognise the Lord's word.

Ques. Would the expression, "O wretched man", Romans 7:24 in Romans 7 be the same idea as is in Peter's mind here -- "sinful"?

J.T.Jr. That would be the discovery of what the law of sin leads to. It is the law of sin and of death, and in its discovery he is wretched. I think that is the idea there, whereas in our chapter it is the initial discovery of the sinful condition, or the origin of things.

A.B.P. Would the wretched man be seen in the leper in the next section? There it is a question of the Lord's will; "If thou wilt".

J.T.Jr. I think that; "full of leprosy". Then, "If thou wilt, thou art able".

A.B.P. Is it not a wonderful point to reach in soul history, that we have no doubt at all as to the Lord's ability to deal with matters?

J.T.Jr. Yes; and so you ask the Lord to deal with them. Leprosy would refer especially to the working of man's will.

A.B.P. There was a man who said, "If thou couldst do anything, be moved with pity on us, and help us. And Jesus said to him, The 'if thou couldst' is if thou couldst believe", Mark 9:23. This man said, "Lord, if thou wilt, thou art able".

J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that we need faith. We are to follow righteousness and the next step is faith

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in relation to the course of things; that, as having faith, the Lord is able to deal with matters which arise.

A.R. Is the idea in the cleansing of the leper that we all must get the cure and that the cure is governed by the will of divine Persons?

J.T.Jr. The section which deals with leprosy follows immediately upon Peter's conversion, and the Lord instructs him to go to the priest. Priesthood is an important matter in relation to manhood. In Leviticus 14 the leper is anointed with the blood and the oil.

J.H.E. Christ has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father", Revelation 1:6.

J.T.Jr. Quite; I think we should dwell further on the Lord dealing with the leprosy because it is the beginning of His work in us. Peter says, "Depart from me, for I am a sinful man, Lord". The Lord did not say anything to him about his sins and He did not depart from him. The Lord had no intention of departing from him. He says, "Fear not; henceforth thou shalt be catching men". The next thing then is how leprosy is dealt with. We cannot heal leprosy; it is a divine operation.

A.R. Why is so much said about leprosy in the book of Leviticus?

J.T.Jr. Is it not to show that this kind of thing exists? it is a type of the working of the will of the flesh and only a divine Person can rightly deal with that. If man is to approach God there can be no evidence of his will being active.

C.A.M. The cleansing of the leper would be an object lesson to Peter; he would be impressed by the Lord's word and how the matter worked out.

Rem. And so the word is, "Go, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing as Moses ordained, for a testimony to them". The priest would

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have seen nothing like this before; he would have to acknowledge that, would he not?

J.T.Jr. Yes; the leprosy departed from the man at the Lord's word: "And immediately the leprosy departed from him".

F.N.W. Is that the mind of God for each one of us? It says of Uzziah that he was a leper till the day of his death. But should not this chapter encourage us to get to God about any unsettled sin question and have it settled?

J.T.Jr. The leprosy was fixed on Uzziah which is a very solemn matter. Unless God comes in there is no possibility of healing.

T.E.H. In Leviticus 13, reference is made to a "burning inflammation" Leviticus 13:24 which may prove not to be leprosy and may refer to irritability or something that marks us naturally, but that condition may become leprous if we do not judge it before God.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the detail of examination and detention is to bring out the features of priestly discernment. The person is declared to be clean or unclean by the priest, and if he is unclean he is put outside the camp. Outside the camp there is no priest; none to attend to the case; the priesthood cannot heal; it is God -- He brings in healing. That is the way I understand it; the healing outside the camp is what God does. The priest has to do with the matter in the day of his cleansing, when he is brought to the priest and the priest looks upon him and sees that the sore of leprosy is healed (Leviticus 14:3).

G.V.D. Would you say that the matter of the leprosy is deeper than the sinfulness of which Peter speaks? Does leprosy involve that we were born in sin and shapen in iniquity, whereas would Peter's case be more a matter of what he had done -- his sins, as distinguished from sin itself?

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J.T.Jr. Peter said, "I am a sinful man, Lord". There is no reference to Peter's being healed, but you get the matter brought forward in the man full of leprosy; he is healed. And then later in the chapter the Lord says, "Thy sins are forgiven thee". He has power to do that. So that as forgiven we get free from the burden of our sins. But the Lord touched the leper, and He has power to forgive sins.

A.B.P. Is it not important to see the meaning connected with touching the leper? The footnote indicates that it is to handle freely. Does it not link on with Romans 8? "God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh", Romans 8:3.

A.N.W. And again, "Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God's righteousness in him", 2 Corinthians 5:21. So that when He touches the leper freely, it is not merely a word or act of intercession, as the Lord's knees might suggest, but the Lord was actually made sin to bring this about.

J.T.Jr. Peter's saying, "I am a sinful man" shows that there was an actual disclosure to him of his state. The leper, falling down links on with Peter. He falls down before Jesus. He besought the Lord. The consciousness of his state was real.

A.P. We have in Peter, and in the leper, conditions which enable God to grant repentance. Both Peter and the leper acknowledged their condition.

A.R. In Leviticus 14 the leper gets healed outside the camp. Would that be the work of God in the soul?

J.T.Jr. That is what is needed, there is a divine Person here who is dealing with the whole matter of sin and of sins.

A.R. So that we can come to this in our souls by the help of the Spirit of God that we judge sin.

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J.T.Jr. Quite so; so that if we continue in darkness we are in a very solemn position because it is a question of God showing mercy or hardening.

S.C.M. In order that we may serve at all we must be right morally. It is after Peter made his confession that the Lord said, "Fear not; henceforth thou shalt be catching men".

J.T.Jr. Quite so. The Lord set up such men as the apostles, in view of establishing the testimony. Peter was to be a true leader. He stood up with the eleven and three thousand men were converted. We should therefore see the place the Lord had in mind for Peter in relation to the assembly at the beginning. He is seen as fulfilling his mission of catching men. The numbers given indicate this; the three thousand at the first preaching, and then, later, the number had grown to five thousand. That is the idea of catching men; and not only were there great numbers, but there was a place to bring them where there was no experience of sinking. Unlike the ship of judaism the assembly has not sunk yet, and it will not sink.

C.A.M. Do you have in your mind in relation to the effectiveness of Peter's ministry, that Peter himself had gone through the experience of being a sinful man and then, later, denying the Lord? These things had been learned in his own soul before he had power in service.

J.T.Jr. Yes; it must have been a wonderful sight for Peter to see the fulfilment of the Lord's word in the men coming in. He would bring them to a place that would not sink as his boat had begun to do. They were now to come into that which was going to abide; and that is what we have come into.

A.B.P. I suppose we never get complete deliverance from sinful self until we cry out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me?", Romans 7:24. Something of the character of this cry must be reached to be

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consciously delivered, so that we can say, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord", Romans 7:25.

J.T.Jr. Just so. We have remarked about the Lord's knees and I think that fits with this section because the Lord sends the healed leper to the priest. That is very instructive to us as to how we arrive at manhood. We may enquire as to what we know about the priest. We are to become priests. So that we do not go to another, in that sense, but take on priestly feelings, to have a right judgment of things.

A.R. Would the knees be suggested in verse 16?

"And he withdrew himself, and was about in desert places and praying".

J.T.Jr. Yes; the Lord was doing that. Romans 7 shows that the man himself becomes a priest; he does not go to someone else; he goes through the experience himself, the Spirit helping, no doubt, but he is finally able to say, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord", Romans 7:25.

A.R. Would you say that is a priestly exclamation?

J.T.Jr. The believer begins to be a priest there.

C.A.M. Luke's gospel really shows that the sinner becomes a priest. One of the ten cleansed lepers glorified God; and the thief on the cross really was priestly in his desire for his fellow. So that the leper here is told to offer. He himself becomes a priest.

J.T.Jr. I am sure that is right; we should discover, if we do not know it, that the idea of the priest is to be seen in regard to ourselves and we learn how to be with God in the whole matter of cleansing. So that the oil is brought in in Leviticus 14 in order to set the man up in service.

Ques. Why is the leper to show himself to the priest and to offer for his cleansing?

J.T.Jr. In Leviticus 14 the priest was to look upon the leper. We have been sinners with no right to priestly activity, like this man, and he was feeling

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it. The Lord cleansed him and told him to go to another position. With us it is not a physical movement, but a moral movement: you arrive at priesthood in your soul.

A.R. The paralysed man in our chapter, after he was healed, stood up and glorified God: "standing up before them ... . he departed to his house, glorifying God". And then they glorified God. The man became a priest and the people became priestly.

J.T.Jr. The instruction which Peter received through these experiences extended to his preaching. Peter learned how the Lord did things. So that his converts at the beginning received forgiveness of sins and were freed from the paralysis of judaism. And we are not to be paralysed but should be able to carry things and influence our houses and be in the assembly in an intelligent way. It has been remarked that Luke makes us priests. At the end of the book the disciples are in the temple praising and blessing God; they are priests to God.

G.V.D. David was involved in sin, but got clear before God through self-judgment and acknowledgment of his sin. Would the last few verses of Psalm 51 be seen as the issue of praise from David as the priest?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; this becomes an abiding principle, "Go, shew thyself to the priest". The priest teaches us what is right, and keeps us right.

J.H.E. Verse 18 says, "And lo, men bringing upon a couch a man ..." This man was healed through the faith of others. Is the partnership seen working out here?

J.T.Jr. It is men bringing a man. They were acting like men; they would be priests; they would be thinking of others who needed help and would know where the help is. It is like ourselves who, on Monday night, or at any time, would bring matters to the Lord for adjustment.

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Ques. Would the oil in Leviticus 14, which was used to anoint the cleansed leper, refer to the Spirit?

J.T.Jr. Just so; we are set up in the power of the Spirit.

Ques. Before we are clear from our sins we may have to do with others, like Paul, who was told to "go into the city" and it would be told him what he must do. And Ananias said, "Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away", Acts 22:16. But when do we become priests?

J.T.Jr. I think when we turn to God. The very young can pray; but I think we must know what to say. Priestliness involves right feelings and what is due to God, but we learn to have links with God early in our spiritual history.

A.N.W. It has been said that the expression at the end of Romans 7"I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord", Romans 7:25 is the first utterance of priesthood. We must never overlook the idea of Christ being our great High Priest.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; but the Lord did not act as the priest here, exactly; He said, "Go, shew thyself to the priest". He was thinking of a system of things. We may go to a brother who can help us, but the Lord means that we should discover our own relations with Him and get clear of our sins.

A.R. In verse 18 we get the system working, do we not? The system is seen in the men bringing a paralysed man to Jesus.

J.T.Jr. That is what I thought; the system is seen working in relation to others.

A.R. And the system is extended in verses 25 and 26; all are glorifying God.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the man becomes a part of the system; and he takes up his couch and goes to his house, glorifying God. The house is a great feature of the truth. He has that before him now. He

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could do nothing about it before, but now he goes to his house.

C.A.M. The thought of carrying involves the levitical service. This man is now a levite. The men who carried him were doing levitical service, too, were they not?

J.T.Jr. Quite so; it was an arduous duty; the Merarites carried the heavy parts of the tabernacle.

A.R. The next paragraph brings in a Levite, "a tax-gatherer, Levi by name".

A.B.P. Is the key to the healing of the paralytic seen in the word 'power'? The Lord says, "But that ye may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins ..." There is delegated authority in the hands of a Man here.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; it says that "the Lord's power was there to heal them". And the Lord's power is here tonight.

A.B.P. That power coming to earth in the Son of man was later committed, according to Mark 13:34, to the bondmen; and according to Matthew 18:18 to the assembly. So that the authority is here now, in the Spirit, is it not?

J.T.Jr. So that on the day of Pentecost there was power to heal; and it is still here.

A.N.W. Is that not confirmed by James, who says, "Let him call to him the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith shall heal the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up", James 5:14,15.

J.T.Jr. We want to act like that, and not be in fear. The Lord says here, "Fear not".

A-w.R. Is it not important to see that while disability and sin are apparent, the great thought is the recovery of the person? It would be a great help to us in the way we do things, if we have in mind to get the person before the Lord.

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J.T.Jr. Quite so. It says in 1 Timothy 2:8, "I will therefore that the men pray in every place". One great feature of manhood is the ability to pray to God in relation to the great need there is amongst us.

A.R. It is the Son of man who has power to forgive sins in this chapter. That title goes beyond judaism, like Peter's word in the house of Cornelius. The system operated in bringing in the gentiles.

J.T.Jr. Yes; the title, Son of man, has all men in mind.

F.N.W. Peter said to Aeneas, "Jesus, the Christ, heals thee", Acts 9:34. The power was in the Name.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the apostles had to face difficult matters all the way in the establishment of the testimony and it is a question of what, in the government of God, may be allowed for us to meet. But the Spirit of God is here to help us, and the Lord is in heaven; but the power is here in the Spirit and we should have faith in facing matters which arise.

E.A.L. Is the priest to be on sure ground, like Paul who could write to the Galatians, saying, "In that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me"? Galatians 2:20.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; the faith of the Son of God would be the power that comes into the soul as knowing the Son of God.

E.A.L. In a crisis the priest should always be sure of his ground.

J.T.Jr. The Spirit of God is here and He will lead us if we are dependent upon Him in critical times. He led Jesus in the wilderness. The leadership of the Spirit must always be before us.

A.R. In the next paragraph there is the suggestion of liberty: "The Pharisees murmured at his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with tax-gatherers and sinners?".

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But the Lord defends them. There is liberty in the system.

J.T.Jr. The section starts with reference to "a tax-gatherer, Levi by name". He is named and is said to be sitting at the receipt of taxes. Our employment is taken account of.

L.W. It is as Son of man that the Lord had power on earth to forgive sins. Why is it not Son of God?

J.T.Jr. The Son of man stands in relation to all men. The title Son of God has reference to His deity.

E.A.L. Stephen saw the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.

J.T.Jr. He stood in relation to the whole position of man, not just the Jew; the whole idea of man is in mind.

A.B.P. Why did the Lord say, "Which is easier, to say, Thy sins are forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?"

J.T.Jr. It is a question of the Lord's authority. He could have said either, but He spoke about the moral side first: "Man, thy sins are forgiven thee". The Lord had come to deal with the whole moral issue, and when that is dealt with man is recovered.

A.B.P. And does it possibly suggest that we should not take the easiest course in matters? Naturally we do not choose to take up a path of self-denial, but take the easiest way out. The Lord would face the moral issue involving His death.

J.T. I am sure that is right.

C.A.M. When we have difficult administrative cases we may find that it is easier to get things righted circumstantially. But the great point, as you were saying, is that the moral side must be adjusted in view of administrative forgiveness.

J.T.Jr. That is what I thought. He said, "Man, thy sins are forgiven thee". Either statement would

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have accomplished the result, but the Lord went to the root of the matter for the benefit of the disciples.

C.A.M. Some of us may be satisfied if we could only get our circumstances changed, but that is not the issue.

K.W.M.R. All was based on the death of Jesus, both the physical and the moral.

J.T.Jr. It must be; He came to deal with sins and to remove the burden and consequence of sin.

A.N.W. I thought that was the point of the Son of man, that He might bear the very sins that He was forgiving. He was really forgiving sins before- hand.

J.T.Jr. He had power to do it.

Ques. What would "Take up thy little couch" mean?

J.T.Jr. Well, it refers to the man's circumstances; he is not to be carried by his circumstances. The thing that had carried him is now being carried by him. He has now to go down to his house and look after things there. When we come to Levi we have a man who has a house and he entertains the Lord and His disciples. It is in relation to a new order of things that has come in; it is no longer a ship that is sinking. The new bottles referred to in the end of the chapter are able to hold the new wine. It suggests that there are men now that can hold things; they can hold the truth.

A.R. Does it involve the incoming of the gentiles?

J.T.Jr. I am sure that it does. It is a new order. We are to be delivered from sitting at the receipt of taxes. We are not to be taxing the brethren or taxing anyone. When you get free in your spirit and know how to be a priest in dealing with matters you do not pass by sin, but you are not on the line of demand either. You act in the spirit of liberty. The priest knows how to do things.

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F.N.W. Levi made a great entertainment for the Lord, and got together "a great crowd of tax-gatherers and others".

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is a gospel scene. There is great entertainment, and good feeling.

J.H.E. The Lord said to Levi, "Follow me". As we follow Christ we set an example. Paul, in writing to the Philippians, said, "Be imitators all together of me, brethren, and fix your eyes on those walking thus as you have us for a model" Philippians 3:17.

J.T.Jr. Quite so; we are to follow the Person. We have leaders, of course, and we are to follow our leaders, but a true leader will always lead you to Christ.

Rem. We are called upon to forgive one another "even as the Christ has forgiven you", Colossians 3:13.

J.T.Jr. It is to be our outlook in matters that remittance is mentioned first: "Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained", John 20:23.

A.R. I had always thought of the new wine and the new skins as referring to Pentecost, but I see that it includes the gentile as well as the Jew.

J.T.Jr. Yes; it is the new man; it awaited Paul to bring that in.

Rem. It says, "For he is our peace, who has made both one ... that he might form the two in himself into one new man", Ephesians 2:14,15.

A.B.P. You are suggesting that the "new skins" refer to the new man rather than to the assembly?

J.T.Jr. I think so.

A.R. And that goes through, for it says that the new wine is put into new skins and both are preserved.

J.T.Jr. It is christianity. If you try to attach it to the old man you lose everything. What is needed is a new vessel, the new man.

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A.B.P. All that has been said would confirm that this is Peter's chapter. It is one whole.

J.T.Jr. I am sure that is right; and we see the whole matter at Pentecost. Think of what they contained; but the vessel did not break. They were filled with the Spirit and that could not break.

D.P. Christianity is not a modification of judaism but something entirely new.

J.T.Jr. Quite, and we are to be in what is entirely new. The more we are in that, the more we will see how God meets things amongst us.

E.A.L. "So if anyone be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new", 2 Corinthians 5:17.

A.R. Does the new wine refer to the Spirit?

J.T.Jr. Yes. The new skins refer to "the new man, which according to God is created in truthful righteousness and holiness", Ephesians 4:24.

A.R. It says that both are preserved; the Spirit of God preserves the idea of the new man right on to the end.

J.T.Jr. That is right; the new man is a singular idea -- not men, but man. We are called upon to put on the new man. It leads into the thought of the assembly; the assembly is composed of persons.

A-w.R. The apostle Paul would be the opposite to a tax-gatherer. In his letter to Philemon he speaks of putting "this to my account", Philemon 1:18.

A.B.P. What does the new garment signify?

J.T.Jr. Well, it is the idea of clothing: "No one puts a piece of a new garment upon an old garment". There must be a new garment; it must be new throughout. I suppose the old garment would be judaism, and particularly the traditions.

S.C.M. I suppose the new garment would be an outward expression of what we are morally.

J.T.Jr. Quite so, whereas the skin would involve death, it has come to light through death.

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C.A.M. The moral change takes place inside the person, but there is also the outward expression or manner of life, which would be the garment. We do not go in for 'the cloth', but for proper priestly clothing..

A.B.P. Would it be seen in Elisha? He rent his own garment and took up the garment which had fallen from Elijah. It was remarked by the sons of the prophets, "The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha", 2 Kings 2:15. He was clothed with power from on high, in figure.

J.T.Jr. So that the Lord could say, "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me", Luke 4:18. It would be the outward evidence of the Spirit.

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MAN (32)

Matthew 16:1 - 28.

J.T.Jr. Would you say that what the Lord said to Peter in regard to the assembly is an outstanding feature of this chapter?

J.T. Yes; in Mr. Raven's time much was made of this chapter, and the Lord used him greatly in the opening up of the truth of the assembly. It says in verse 18, "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it". This verse was much stressed at that time; and it has been much before us since that time, too. Of course, there are some who make a good deal of this verse in a wrong way, but it is a question of getting at the truth.

J.T.Jr. Our brethren in Spain are suffering from that system at the present time.

J.T. Yes; Spain had a great place among the nations at one time, but now she is of little account as a nation, but some of our brethren are under great pressure there.

W.W.M. Is there any connection between this word "build" and the passage in Genesis 2, "And Jehovah Elohim built the rib that he had taken from Man into a woman; and brought her to Man"? Genesis 2:22. Would the thought of building connect these?

J.T. Quite so. "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it"; it is not against Christ but against the assembly.

J.T.Jr. Has not the thought of the assembly been brought into great relief amongst the people of God throughout the world?

J.T. I think so; I think the Lord has greatly blessed the brethren and from Mr. Raven's time the truth as to the assembly has been greatly developed, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it.

A.B.P. Are we also to have in mind the man to whom this was said?

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J.T. Well, quite so; the Lord used Peter particularly to open up the truth at the beginning.

A.B.P. I thought that you may have had Peter in mind in view of our subject of manhood. We have been speaking of manhood as seen set out in persons and I wondered what particular feature of manhood is seen in Peter in this chapter.

J.T. Well, he is not the rock, of course; Christ is the Rock; but still, Peter has a great place as to the foundation truth of the assembly.

J.T.Jr. Mr. Darby used to speak of Peter's church, Paul's church and John's church. Peter's church comes first in the Acts.

A.B.P. Is it connected particularly with the kingdom side of the truth? And is it necessary for us to be grounded in Peter's ministry before we rightly can take on Paul's ministry?

J.T. I would say that.

A.R. Would the rock be seen in the confession of Peter? "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God". Would that be the rock?

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. We have much said as to the rock in the Old Testament. This would be somewhat the same idea, I suppose. In God's mind there is something that cannot be overthrown.

A.R. It says in 1 Corinthians 10, "Now the rock was the Christ", 1 Corinthians 10:4.

A.N.W. Stability and permanency are features of the rock. Peter's name means 'stone' which is kindred, but not exactly the same idea.

S.C.M. Peter, in his first epistle, speaks of living stones being built up a spiritual house; I suppose he got the idea from this experience.

J.T. Quite so; that enters into this matter; Peter's name means 'stone' as has been said: "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly".

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The rock was the confession of Christ as the Son of God; so that the rock is not Peter, but the Son of God.

A.N.W. The words "Peter" (meaning stone) and "rock" are different words. To make Peter the rock is to falsify the truth.

Rem. One thing that marked Peter's church (to use an expression which was used earlier in the meeting) was the large number of converts he had through his preaching; three thousand were added at Pentecost and these later were increased to five thousand.

L. W. Does the expression "hades' gates" suggest an administration of evil which is against the assembly? And is it right to say that down through the ages the assembly has withstood the attacks of the enemy?

J.T. Just so.

A.B.P. Is it not interesting, in view of the error that has been brought in as to the rock, that this paragraph is preceded by the Lord's words, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees"?

J.T. Quite so; very good; that is, beware of the danger of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Ques. Does this section not suggest that if the assembly is to be in its true setting we must be right as to the Person of Christ? He raises the question as to who He is.

J.T.Jr. That entered into Peter's preaching; although he did not preach Him as the Son of God, yet it was the Person: "God has made him, this Jesus ... both Lord and Christ", Acts 2:36.

A.P. Peter's ministry in the house of Cornelius would be assembly ministry.

T.N.W. The Lord Jesus says, "My Father who is in the heavens" had revealed the truth to Peter. Though he was not able to say much about it at the time, he would understand later on that it was the Father.

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J.T. Just so; so that "the Son of the living God" is the rock, and this revelation to Peter developed the truth of the assembly to that extent.

J.T.Jr. Perhaps we should give more consideration to the extent of Peter's work in connection with the assembly.

J.T. Paul's ministry was the leading ministry as to the assembly but Peter's ministry leads up to Paul's.

A.N.W. Peter's ministry makes way for Paul's. Luke seems to have design in giving Peter prominence in the early part of the Acts, and then giving full place to Paul subsequently.

J.T. What a ministry they had! And what a place the Lord gave them! And what a place they should have with us, too, as loving the truth! Both Peter and Paul should be held in the highest regard by us in the light of the truth.

C.A.M. In giving the keys of the kingdom to Peter the Lord would show his confidence in him.

A.B.P. Would there be some link with the ministry of Peter and Paul in the two feedings in Mark's gospel? In the first feeding the Lord lifted up His eyes to heaven and gave thanks, suggesting the kingdom of the heavens, whereas in the second He did not look up to heaven, which may suggest the presence of the Spirit of God here.

J.T. Quite so; say more.

A.B.P. Well, I understand from what has been ministered that the kingdom of the heavens is that feature of the kingdom relating to Christ, the King, in heaven, whereas the kingdom of God is more what is centred in the Spirit's operation down here, and I thought that Peter and Paul develop these two phases of the truth. Peter says that Jesus has been made Lord and Christ. Paul says that the kingdom is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Very good.

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J.T.Jr. Do not these thoughts therefore enter into the position; the kingdom of the heavens is heaven's rule here; and the kingdom of God is God's sway here in the power of the Spirit.

A.B.P. I thought this would help us in the apprehension of the truth of the assembly.

S.C.M. Could we speak of the "rock" as the foundation and the stones as material to be built thereon, so that the assembly is to be built; but the rock would be the foundation?

J.T. Just so: "On this rock I will build my assembly". That refers to the Son of God.

J.T.Jr. Peter speaks of that, does he not? "Yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up", 1 Peter 2:5. The stones are built upon the foundation which is the rock.

J.T. It is a very important distinction.

W.W.M. Do we need to understand the objective side of the truth in the kingdom of the heavens to come into the enjoyment of what is subjective by the Spirit? The Lord asked, in chapter 13, after His parables as to the kingdom, "Have ye understood all these things?". We have attended meetings, some of us for many years, and spiritual things have been before us. It is a question, therefore, if we can answer like the disciples, who said, "Yea, Lord". The Lord could then say, "For this reason every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old", Matthew 13:51,52.

J.T. Our chapter continues, "For the Son of man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to each according to his doings. Verily I say unto you, There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom" (verses 27,28). It is now a question of the Son of man instead of the Son of God.

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J.T.Jr. You are calling attention to the distinction between the Lord's titles as Son of God and Son of man. Does the title Son of man suggest His relations with men, stressing the idea of manhood?

J.T. Yes.

J.T.Jr. The Son of man would have a distinctive place, then, in relation to men. I think He alone uses the title in the gospels in regard to Himself. It must have had much importance in His mind.

J.T. That is good; I am glad you mentioned that. It is a question of man; not only that He is Son of God, but it is a question of what man is.

A.R. Does verse 27 refer to the coming kingdom and verse 28 to what took place in the next chapter? He is now about to come in glory.

J.T.Jr. It will be as Son of man because it is the rejected Christ.

J.T. Yes. Angels are mentioned and have a great place, but man is greater; it is the Son of man coming in His kingdom.

J.T.Jr. We are looking for that.

A.R. Will the angels be subservient to man?

J.T.Jr. They are seen ascending and descending on Christ.

J.T. The point in John 1:51 is the Son of man coming in His kingdom. Man is everything in heaven, you might say, because Christ is Man. Man has a unique place in God's mind. We have much in Paul's ministry on this whole matter.

J.T.Jr. Stephen saw the Son of man in heaven. That is the position now.

J.T. So that we must keep in mind that angels are not pre-eminent; Man is pre-eminent.

A.T.D. Will you help as to "the glory of his Father" in verse 27?

J.T. The Son of man coming in His kingdom is the great thought there. The reference to the Father

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would refer to the honour He has from the Father, the great place that the Son has with the Father.

C.A.M. Earlier in the chapter the Father had brought the glory of Christ into Peter's soul. With him it was an inward thing, but this verse refers to the manifestation of His glory.

A.B.P. In referring to the "holy mountain" Peter says, "For he received from God the Father honour and glory", 2 Peter 1:17.

J.T. That is good; say more.

A.B.P. I thought that would link with the thought of "the glory of his Father" in verse 27. Also, we have a similar idea in Hebrews 1:6 where it says, "When he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him", Hebrews 1:6.

A.N.W. While the Lord speaks of the Son of man coming in His kingdom, which I suppose refers to the mount, He is disclosed there as the Son of the Father -- "my beloved Son". Though one and the same Person yet in the vision in the glory it is "my beloved Son", Matthew 17:5.

J.T.Jr. Hymn 350 speaks of "honours rare".

A.R. Verse 28 refers to those who would not "taste of death at all until they shall have seen ..." Should we have a sense in our souls as to whether we are going to die or be taken up? We should know whether we are going to live or whether we are going to die.

J.T.Jr. I suppose we should know whether the Lord is going to take us or if we are to be left here till the rapture.

A.B.P. How can we know?

J.T.Jr. I think we should know by the Spirit. Do you think we should know if we are going to be here when the Lord comes, or if the Lord is going to take us?

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J.T. Oh, I think so; and the assembly is to have the nearest place in heaven.

A.R. It says as to the Spirit, in John 16:13, that He "will announce to you what is coming", John 16:13. We should know what is about to come.

G.V.D. Simeon knew that he was going to die, but that he would see the Lord's Christ: "It was divinely communicated to him by the Holy Spirit, that he should not see death before he should see the Lord's Christ", Luke 2:26. Perhaps we should know whether or not we will be here at the Lord's coming.

A.B.P. Do you feel that there should be conscious knowledge generally amongst the saints as to this? It is proper that we should be expecting the Lord's imminent return, but does not the Father have control of the times and the seasons? I wondered if it is right to expect that we can have a conscious sense, without doubt, that the Lord is coming before we are taken in death.

J.T. I would be guided by Paul's ministry.

A.B.P. He had the consciousness from the Lord that He was going to take him to Himself.

J.T. Yes; it is marvellous to think that man can have such a wonderful place with God.

J.T.Jr. Paul had the desire to depart to be with Christ, but also to remain with the saints.

J.T. Yes; "having the desire for departure and being with Christ, for it is very much better", Philippians 1:23.

A.B.P. He had said earlier, "We, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord", 1 Thessalonians 4:15. He included himself among the living.

A.N.W. Peter was definitely told by the Lord that he would die, "signifying by what death he should glorify God", John 21:19. But then the disciples

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made a mistake about John when they said that he would not die. Are there not cases where the matter is one of prophecy and it is fulfilled? But so far as we are concerned we could hardly say that.

A.R. The next to the last verse of the Bible says, "He that testifies these things says, Yea, I come quickly". The answer is, "Amen; come, Lord Jesus", Revelation 22:20.

Rem. The language of the evil bondman of Matthew 24:48 would be, "My lord delays to come", Matthew 24:48. But the word which has been quoted from Revelation is what the Spirit is saying.

W.W.M. It was said as to the Thessalonians that they "turned to God from idols ... to await his Son from the heavens", 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10.

A.B.P. If the prospect of the Lord's coming is not a living hope in our hearts we are not vitally in christianity, are we?

J.T. I would say that, it is a living hope.

A.R. Your word at a funeral recently was about life; that "in him was life", John 1:4.

J.T. Life is the great thought that John had in mind.

L.W. Did not Paul have life in mind when he said that to be absent from the body and present with the Lord is very much better? Is it not continuing in life, for the believer?.

J.T. The subject of life is a very great matter.

J.T.Jr. So the revelation to Peter would have that in mind: "The Son of the living God". We should connect the great subject of life with the truth of the Son of God.

Rem. It says in verse 25, "For whosoever shall desire to save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it".

J.T. That is the Lord's own word.

S.C.M. "God is not God of the dead, but of the living", Matthew 22:32.

J.T. Quite so.

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F.N.W. I believe you have said that the Spirit would give the assembly intimation as to the nearness of the Lord's return.

J.T. Certainly I would say that; the Lord will give intimations, so definite is the place that man has with God, in life. It is the living God.

B.T. The word is, "Encouraging one another, and by so much the more as ye see the day drawing near", Hebrews 10:25. And then Peter speaks of "waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God", 2 Peter 3:12.

A.N.W. Paul puts it beautifully in 1 Thessalonians 4:15: "We the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord".

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MAN (33)

Matthew 17:1 - 27

J.T. I feel encouraged that the Lord will help us in considering this chapter together.

A.B.P. Do you have in mind to bring before us the order of manhood seen in Christ glorified?

J.T. Quite so.

J.T.Jr. Is this the Son of man in His own circumstances?

J.T. Yes; in His own circumstances. We might link the Son of man more with Luke than with Matthew, but Matthew is the assembly gospel.

A.N.W. Does this incident fulfil what the Lord said in the closing word in chapter 16? "There are some of those standing here that shall not taste of death at all until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom", Matthew 16:28.

J.T. I thought that; and it fits into what is known as the assembly gospel.

J.T.Jr. So that coming in His kingdom would involve His assembly. It is introduced in the previous chapter; here it is the kingdom, but the Lord must have had the assembly in mind in relation to it.

C.A.M. The glory of the kingdom will be manifested after the assembly has gone into glory, will it not? The assembly will be with Christ then.

J.T. Yes; because she is the bride of Christ.

J.T.Jr. They had to go up the mountain to see the glory.

J.T. I just wonder about how we will go up, we will have to do with the clouds; "We ... shall be caught up together with them in the clouds", 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

C.A.M. It is remarkable that clouds are referred to in connection with the Lord's coming in glory:

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"They shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory", Matthew 24:30.

J.T. And again, "Behold, he comes with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they which have pierced him, and all the tribes of the land shall wail because of him", Revelation 1:7.

A.N.W. And as to His going into heaven it says, "A cloud received him out of their sight", Acts 1:9.

J.T. That is right; "a cloud received him".

J.T.Jr. And it is a bright cloud in our chapter: "A bright cloud overshadowed them" (verse 5).

A.R. We are told here that Jesus brought the disciples up into a high mountain apart; it is the idea of elevation. I was thinking of this when you were speaking of the assembly going up.

J.H.E. The footnote to verse 5 helps; it says, 'The cloud covered, without darkening them; it was bright -- the excellent glory (2 Peter 1:17)'.

J.T. That helps.

A.R. The divine presence was apparently in the cloud, for it says, "And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight: hear him" (verse 5).

J.T.Jr. It involves the Father's presence, does it not? Peter says, "He received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory", 2 Peter 1:17. It is not so much the physical idea, but that the Father was in it.

J.T. That is good. Ordinarily, clouds involve moisture, when we think of them physically.

L.W. Peter links what has been said with "the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", 2 Peter 1:16. Would Moses and Elias, seen in glory with the Lord, be typical, in some sense, of the personnel of the assembly? Moses had been buried but Elias had been translated without seeing death.

Rem. The cloud in the tabernacle system and in Solomon's day was connected with the glory of

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God, which shows that the presence of God is in mind: "The cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle", Exodus 40:34.

J.T. That is good.

A.P. What have we to understand by His being transfigured? "He was transfigured before them". Was there a change in the Lord's body?

L.W. Would Luke's account help? It says, "And as he prayed the fashion of his countenance became different and his raiment white and effulgent", Luke 9:29.

J.T. The reference to His countenance shows that the Lord had intense feelings as to all this. It was a question of what He would do; they "spoke of his departure".

V.C.L. Would it raise the question with us as to whether we are ready to be changed when the Lord Jesus comes for us? We all will be changed and be given bodies of glory. The Lord here was ready, and we should be ready for the change that will take place when He comes for us.

J.T. He was ready, and we glory in it, because it is wonderful that the Lord should be glorified.

E.E.H. What object did the Lord have in taking these disciples up to see His glory?

J.T. He wanted His disciples to know something of His glory; these were wonderful things.

E.E.H. This was secret, for publicly He was despised and rejected.

J.H.E. Did Peter need this? The Lord had said to him, "Thy mind is not on the things that are of God, but on the things that are of men", Matthew 16:23.

J.T. He had said, "Get away behind me, Satan", Matthew 16:23.

J.H.E. And later in that chapter it says, "The Son of man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels" Matthew 16:27.

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Ques. Would the word as to His face shining "as the sun", be a representation of "the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ", 2 Corinthians 4:6?

J.T. Yes; as expressed in Christ. We all come into the idea of glory, and I often wonder how we shall share in it; it is wonderful to think that we shall all come into the glory. But then God is to have glory and Christ is to have glory because Christ is representative of God Himself; and, of course, He is God and glory belongs to God.

F.H.L. The Lord selected certain disciples to be with Him on the mount. Would you say that on Lord's day morning at the Supper we are regarded as selected persons?

J.T. Yes, I have spoken with Mr. Raven on this very matter, that the saints are glorious. And much has been said in later years about it, too. Every believer is glorious; both brothers and sisters.

Rem. God is bringing many sons to glory.

A.B.P. Is there the suggestion of the personal compensation for the Lord in the transfiguration? Is this the Father's answer to His committal, in the previous chapter: "From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples that he must go away to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders", Matthew 16:21.

J.T. Yes; He was going to suffer. The sufferings and the glory are in mind.

A.B.P. Well, would it be divine consideration for the Lord as Man? Are we to understand that He appreciated the matter of compensation?

J.T. Very good; we have the transfiguration in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and each has its particular teaching. This is Matthew's presentation which we are considering now, and it is the leading gospel in regard to the assembly.

J.T.Jr. The sufferer becomes the One who reigns.

A.N.W. Peter puts it beautifully in connection with those who were to suffer. He exhorted them to

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suffer, that the Spirit of glory and of God might rest upon them; the suffering and the glory are very beautifully put together: "If ye are reproached in the name of Christ, blessed are ye; for the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you", 1 Peter 4:14.

J.T. I am glad you referred to that; it is a fine expression.

A.B.P. Is there a similar thought in relation to the children of Israel in Exodus 16? As they were about to go into the wilderness the glory appeared to them. "They turned toward the wilderness, and behold, the glory of Jehovah appeared in the cloud" Exodus 16:10.

J.T.Jr. The glory appears in the wilderness.

A.B.P. Does it not seem that when there is a committal on our part to take on suffering, God comes in with some foretaste of glory? God considers for us in our feelings, and is aware that we need encouragement, so that if we commit ourselves to a path of suffering He will give us a compensating touch of the glory.

Rem. In Numbers, Joshua and Caleb suffered but God sustained them through the wilderness and brought them into the land.

J.T. Very good.

E.A.L. It says, "His face shone as the sun". The Lord is the source of light and life. In Him was life and the life was the light of men.

J.T. The sun is the great orb of light in the universe.

V.C.L. Has there been a certain glory here ever since the Holy Spirit came down at Pentecost?

J.T. Quite so, it is wonderful to think of that.

V.C.L. So that while Christ was unique, the assembly is a vessel of glory even now, is it not?

J.T. Quite so. That is good, a vessel of glory.

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J.T.Jr. As to the individual side, which you are stressing, there would be seen in these three men the evidence that the Lord is concerned about each one of us as being suitable for this glory.

J.T. Think of what we have come into! The Lord is going to take us into the heavens; we will have part in the glory. The assembly, as a vessel of glory, is being prepared for that!

A.R. So that "we all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit", 2 Corinthians 3:18.

J.T.Jr. Do you think that sonship underlies our part in this? As being sons of God now by faith we are made suitable for such a scene of glory as this?

J.T. I think God has been preparing the saints for this, and for our actual entrance into heaven.

C.A.M. Is that why the enemy, as seen later in the chapter, endeavours to destroy sonship? This son had come under adverse power; he was not in the good of sonship; his father said, "Lord, have mercy on my son" (verse 15).

J.T.Jr. And does the end of the chapter bring us into the liberty of sonship as the Lord says, "Then are the sons free" (verse 26)? The great thought of sonship is maintained.

A.B.P. Does Hebrews 1:6 involve our part in sonship glory? It says, "When he brings in the firstborn into the habitable world, he says, And let all God's angels worship him", Hebrews 1:6. Does the reference to the firstborn imply the many brethren being brought in?

J.T. "When the Christ is manifested ... then shall ye also be manifested with him in glory", Colossians 3:4.

F.H.L. Do we get the glory of sonship on the mountain, but the test comes at the foot of the mountain, where the enemy seeks to destroy the son?

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J.T. It is wonderful that God has brought in the idea of glory in connection with sonship. It is a great matter that we joy in sonship and the thought of being sons of God and sons of the resurrection.

Ques. And does this passage raise the question as to what we are able to say in the scene of glory?

J.T. Very good; it is a matter of what we are able to say. It says of Peter: "Not knowing what he said", Luke 9:33. But I believe God is helping us to know what to say.

J.H.E. Paul says to the Galatians: "Because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father" Galatians 4:6.

J.T. I think it is very wonderful that God has ordered for us that we can enjoy sonship at the present time.

A.R. Do you think it awaited Paul's ministry to bring in the idea of the sons being free? The Lord mentions it to Peter here but it is Paul who opens up the truth as to it. He tells the Galatians to cast out the maid servant and her son.

J.T. Quite so, as being sons of God. It is wonderful that we are to be sons of the resurrection.

S.W. Would you say that we should be at home and comfortable in the presence of the glory? Moses must have been acquainted with it. He set up the tabernacle and when everything was completed, then it says, "The glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle. And Moses could not enter into the tent of meeting, for the cloud abode on it, and the glory of Jehovah filled the tabernacle", Exodus 40:35. He was well acquainted with the glory, and here on the mount of transfiguration he would be at ease.

J.T.Jr. This is the Lord's own sphere; His own circumstances.

J.T. Yes, the Lord's own sphere, and we are coming into it; brothers and sisters alike are coming

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into it. I think it is wonderful, and God is helping us to come into these glorious things.

F.H.L. Moses could not enter the tabernacle nor could the priests stand in the temple when the glory came in. But would you say that the sons can stand in the presence of the glory?

J.T. Yes; the Lord asks the Father "that they may behold my glory", John 17:24. God has given us that right, we are sons of God. I sometimes wonder how we will get on when we get to glory; God will show to all intelligences in heaven and on earth that the assembly is partaker of the glory.

A.E.W. The disciples fell on their faces on the mount, and further, the father of the lunatic fell on his knees, but does our place in sonship give us the grace to stand as we have part in the service?

Ques. When Ezekiel fell upon his face in the presence of the glory of Jehovah, it says that the Spirit set him upon his feet Ezekiel 2:2. Does not the Spirit sustain us in the presence of the glory of God?

J.T. Quite so; we are sustained.

C.F.E. There is a gracious touch here which the Lord gave to the disciples when they were terrified. It says, in verse 7, "And Jesus coming to them touched them, and said, Rise up, and be not terrified". I suppose He wanted them to be occupied with Him alone. "They saw no one but Jesus alone".

J.T. I believe the brethren are getting into the truth. It is a great matter to be occupied with Jesus alone in glory.

F.N.W. Would you say that those who have served us have been in the enjoyment of sonship? Is it necessarily so?

J.T. It is important to be preserved in the truth, and I believe that God would keep us going on in it until the end. We belong to the greatest family in the universe -- the highest order of man.

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J.T.Jr. The sons are free, and they should be free of everything that would hinder them in their souls.

A.R. In the last verse of our chapter the Lord uses the words, "For me and thee". The Lord joins with Peter in the idea of sonship.

J.H.E. Paul told the Galatians that "God ... was pleased to reveal his Son" Galatians 1:16 in him. What a unique vessel he was!

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MAN (34)

John 1:14 - 18; John 21:20 - 25

J.T.Jr. John records for us the fact of the Lord's being in the Father's bosom.

J.T. Yes; in chapter 1:18: "No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" John 1:18.

J.T.Jr. Is it not striking that John should bring that out, that the Lord was in the Father's bosom?

A.B.P. Is it a position arrived at and peculiar to Him in manhood?

J.T. Quite so; I would say that.

T.N.W. Has this in mind the Lord's position as here on earth or did it become a fact after He had ascended?

J.T. It would be both; the Son was here as in the Father's bosom; "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father". That is the great position that has come out in John's gospel; and then the epistles, too, bring out the truth as to the Father and the Son.

A.N.W. The words used would not allow that position to be conveyed into a past eternity. That was made clear when the truth as to the Lord's sonship came out some years ago.

J.T. Yes; "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father".

A.R. Is that also true of the Lord now?

J.T. Quite so; He is in the bosom of the Father.

S.C.M. Does verse 14 show that this relationship was taken account of here? It says, "We beheld his glory".

J.T. Surely they did, "as of an only-begotten with a father". John brings that out; he was the disciple whom Jesus loved. That is a great point, and John brings it out.

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S.C.M. He himself leaned on the Lord's breast.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. There is a foot-note to the word "in" in verse 18 which bears on the fact that He has moved into this position as in the Father's bosom.

J.T. That is right; He came into that position.

A.B.P. It would seem that there is some question as to whether the Lord Jesus was in the Father's bosom as here on earth, or if that awaited His ascension.

J.T. It is the present tense: "who is in the bosom of the Father". It refers to the place He had there while in manhood here on earth.

J.T.Jr. The point is manhood; as Man He is in the bosom of the Father; it is a position arrived at in manhood.

J.T. The word implies motion; He came into it as Man. And the apostles came into the apostolic position.

J.T.Jr. John came into the Lord's bosom. So that it is as Man that the Son is in the bosom of the Father.

F.H.L. The declaration of God follows that expression in John 1:18.

J.T. Just so; "He hath declared him".

J.T.Jr. You mean that the declaration comes in after the reference to the Lord's being in the Father's bosom.

A.R. It has been said that declaration bears on God: "No one has seen God at any time".

J.T. Yes; but the verse reads: "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". That is the whole matter: "Who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". It was a then present mater.

W.W.M. So that He also said: "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father", John 14:9. He had revealed Him

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J.T. Good, that is the truth.

V.C.L. Are these two wonderful things open to us, to see the glory as of an only-begotten, and then to hear the Father's name declared?

J.T. It was unique in the experience of the apostles, but we are to come into the appreciation of it. And the Lord has helped us in recent years to understand more clearly that the Lord's sonship hinges on His manhood.

A.B.P. His place as the only-begotten is unique; that is a distinctive glory that He has in sonship?

J.T. That is right. John's gospel opens up His sonship and it opens up eternal life, too, and therefore we should keep it before us.

J.T.Jr. There is a great system in mind in this section; love's realm is in mind, is it not?

J.T. I would say that. And it is an important thing for us to understand.

A.R. We could not have the conditions of eternal life without unity and love, could we?

J.T. The Lord used F.E.R. in a distinctive way to bring out the great truth of eternal life.

E.E.H. Psalm 2 looks forward to all this: "I will declare the decree: Jehovah hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; I this day have begotten thee", Psalm 2:7.

J.T. That is good.

F.W.K. Could something be said of the fulness? "For of his fulness we all have received"; what does the fulness involve?

J.T. Well, the meaning of the word has to be understood; it would be a spiritual matter, of course, and no doubt refers to the apostles, because they all came into it: "we all". The Lord gave them grace for apostleship.

A.N.W. Would it refer back to the last few words of verse 14? If we leave out the bracketed section, it reads, "dwelt among us ..., full of grace and truth; ... for of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace".

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J.T. Yes; "For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists" (notice the word 'subsists') "through Jesus Christ". Then it says, "The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him". I think that is one of the most important verses in John's gospel.

Ques. Does the fulness here refer to what He was in manhood?

J.T. It is the Person.

Ques. That is embodied in the title "the Word"?

J.T. That is right. "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us". It was a great matter, and the disciples came into it: "We have contemplated his glory". And again, "Of his fulness we all have received".

S.C.M. There is a further word in Colossians 1:18, about the fulness: "And he is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things: for in him all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell", Colossians 1:18,19.

J.T. Yes; that is "the fulness of the Godhead" and is a further thought.

R.R.T. The expression "for of his fulness" seems to revert back to verse 14, "full of grace and truth". Verse 15 is a parenthesis after which it says, "For of his fulness we all have received, and grace upon grace".

J.T. Yes, the 'we' is emphasised.

J.T.Jr. Would not the fulness go beyond the reference to grace and truth? "Of his fulness" would not be limited to grace and truth.

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. His fulness must be a greater thought than grace and truth; and, of course, "all the fulness of the Godhead" Colossians 1:18 must be a very great matter.

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A.B.P. The fulness of the Godhead was resident in Christ, but here His fulness was imparted to the disciples.

F.W.K. Would this reference to the fulness be linked with the Word and the expression of what was in the mind of God in relation to His purposes?

J.T. It was a divine Person; no less than a divine Person.

R.R.T. Is it not important to note that it says, "For of his fulness ..."? The apostles had received of His fulness; they had received in part.

E.E.H. Hebrews 1:3 says that the Son is the effulgence of God's glory and the expression of His substance. It is as Son that He is spoken of thus.

J.T. Yes; and Ephesians refers to both the fulness of Christ and the fulness of God, but Hebrews very particularly helps in this matter.

C.F.I. Does the expression: "A glory as of an only-begotten with a father", contemplate what is known in human relationships?

J.T. Quite so; it does not say the father, but a father; it is that kind of relationship.

C.F.I. Would that imply the intimacy of relationship between the Father and the Son?

J.T. Just so; it is His glory, it is to make much of the Person of Christ; He is the only-begotten Son and He filled out that relationship uniquely. It says that He is in the bosom of the Father; He has declared Him. He has declared the Father; He and the Father are equal.

A.B.P. Is not the glory of an only-begotten with a father seen in Abraham and Isaac in Genesis 22? Isaac is referred to as "thine only son". It says, "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and there offer him up", Genesis 22:2. What follows shows the glory of the relationship between Isaac and his father.

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J.T. Yes; it is such an one as that, an only-begotten with a father.

Ques. Does it bring out the unique place that the Lord Jesus had?

J.T. Yes.

A.P. Twice the thought of grace and truth is mentioned in this chapter; does that emphasise a particular feature of the glory?

J.T. He was full of grace and truth, and grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ. It is the greatness of the Person.

W.W.M. Would there be any connection with what the Lord Jesus said to the Father in chapter 17:22? "And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them", John 17:22.

J.T. No doubt there is a link with our place in sonship. His place is unique, but we are brought "into favour in the Beloved", Ephesians 1:6.

V.C.L. What John witnessed would give him substance and authority as the Spirit helped him to make the glorious statements with which he begins the gospel: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God", John 1:1.

J.T. What could be greater? "The Word was with God, and the Word was God"!

V.C.L. He acquired this knowledge from the Spirit, but having received of the fulness would fit him to be a suitable vessel to minister it.

A.R. Would the "we" in verse 16 show that it was the apostles only who received of His fulness?

J.T. Surely; "We have contemplated his glory".

J.T.Jr. So that what John writes in his epistle about eternal life flows out from this. He speaks of "the eternal life, which was with the Father", 1 John 1:2.

J.T. Quite so; John's writings have a unique place.

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J.T.Jr. There seems to be a connection, therefore, between the glory "as of an only-begotten with a father" and what is said in the epistle: "That which was from the beginning, ... that which we have seen with our eyes; that which we contemplated", 1 John 1:1. And then it goes on to speak of "the eternal life, which was with the Father", 1 John 1:2.

F.H.L. We have a remarkable verse at the end of chapter 3: "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand. He that believes on the Son has life eternal", John 3:35. Is not that an added touch which the writer brings in?

J.T. Surely; these touches are peculiar to John, the one whom Jesus loved. One of the greatest distinctions that a man could have is to be loved by Jesus.

A.R. The apostle also says in his epistle, "The eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us: that which we have seen and heard we report to you", 1 John 1:2,3.

J.T. I suppose we can see that it was fit and suitable to have John, the one whom Jesus loved, bring all this out; he was conscious of being loved.

R.C.R. Does the impression of the affection between the Father and the Son underlie our enjoyment of eternal life? Does it involve that Christ is the contemplated One?

J.T. That would enter into it. The Son is greatly honoured in John's writings, and it is striking that the Father should give that distinction to John.

J.T.Jr. You mean that the distinction was given to John to bring out this truth in his gospel and epistles because he had such a place in the affections of the Lord?

J.T. Yes; he was in the consciousness of being loved by Jesus.

D.P. Is there a distinction between declaration and revelation?

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J.T. They are somewhat akin, but very near to one another. One involves divine speaking and the other what was seen in Christ.

Rem. The relationship between the Father and the Son seems to be the point of attack with the Jews in this gospel.

J.T. You can understand, therefore, the great concern for the apostles which the Lord had that they should be preserved: "Keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we", John 17:11.

J.T.Jr. So that when they stood up together at Pentecost with Peter there were twelve; John was with him.

F.W.K. John has in mind that these things should be continued. He says, in his first epistle, that we might have fellowship with the apostles in the fellowship which they enjoyed; so that what subsists is to be continued; it comes down to our own time. I was thinking of the great privilege which is ours in having part in these glorious things, that which subsists, and the blessedness of divine relationships.

J.T. I hope that we will think of the privilege that is ours; there is nothing greater than the extensive truth which is set out in this gospel.

V.C.L. Is John impressed with the need of things being in our souls when he says, "He that has the Son has life: he that has not the Son of God has not life", 1 John 5:12? It is not just believing, but having the Person.

J.T. So that we are dealing with great things which were given to the disciple whom Jesus loved. It is very wonderful, and I sometimes think I would like to have been at the beginning of this dispensation to receive thoughts from the disciple whom Jesus loved. They had the greatest things at the beginning, and by the Spirit we have them now.

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S.C.M. Was Peter coming into this when he said, "Lord, to whom shall we go?" John 6:68.

J.T. Quite so; "thou hast words of life eternal".

W.W.M. "He that has the Son has life", 1 John 5:12. We have received it; we have received it in the Holy Spirit.

J.T. Just so.

A.B.P. Is John used to vitally link the beginning of the dispensation with the end? He seems to gather up everything in the first chapter of his gospel, going right back to, "In the beginning was the Word", John 1:1 and without Him nothing received being, but the Lord's word to Peter, about John, is, "If I will that he abide until I come", John 21:23. Does that not suggest that the vitality of all that John stands for is to be brought through to the end?

J.T. These are wonderful things; the twelve apostles had to do with their establishment at the beginning and John had to do with it, vitally.

S. W. Was not the fulness of which the apostles had received seen in Peter and John when they went up to the temple at the hour of prayer? Peter could say, "Look on us", Acts 3:4.

J.T. I have been impressed with that word many times; how important they were!

R.C.R. So it says, "We have contemplated his glory", and in John's first epistle, "That which we contemplated, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life", 1 John 1:1.

J.T. Let us take these things in, and enjoy them; and God will bless us as we give them our sober and careful thought, especially young people, for it is good to learn how to give quiet consideration to divine things.

F.H.L. Features of manhood shine out in John. At the cross it was the disciple whom Jesus loved

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who stood by, and it was the disciple whom Jesus loved that Peter saw following in chapter 21.

J.T. Quite so.

F.W.K. So that contemplating the glory of Christ as Son and receiving grace upon grace would make for spirituality in the saints; spiritual manhood would come to light.

J.T. Just so.

F.W.K. Would the expression, "The disciple whom Jesus loved", refer to quality in the disciple, or would it be sovereignty?

J.T. Well, it would be sovereignty, of course, but I think John must have been lovable.

Ques. Is the glory that is conferred on us, according to John 17, arrived at by contemplating His glory?

J.T. "The glory which thou hast given me I have given them", John 17:22. That must have something to do with sonship. I wonder if we ever sit up at night and contemplate this wonderful thing.

A.R. It says that John was on the breast of Jesus at supper. He availed himself of the opportunity to get near the Lord at supper.

J.T.Jr. John was in the Lord's bosom; he was there. It does not say that of the other disciples.

C.F.E. The Lord's words to Peter, "Follow thou me", John 21:22 would have the end in view; though addressed to Peter, the teaching would be that we should continue to the end.

J.T. Yes; we should be concerned that we continue to the end. You are going to do that, are you not?

C.F.E. I trust so; by the Lord's help.

W.W.M. Peter was enquiring about John, but we are not to be unduly concerned with the other brother; we are to see to ourselves.

J.T. Very good.

F.N.W. Does not this first chapter enable us to be occupied with the holy relationship between the

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Father and the Son? The Spirit would hold that available to the saints through the whole history of the assembly, so that it can be sustained in our souls now.

J.T. I have wondered to what extent Gabriel and the other angels can understand or appreciate this.

F.N.W. Does not the Lord refer to our entering into this in chapter 17? "That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them" John 17:26.

J.T. Very beautiful.

Rem. John the baptist had to say, in chapter 1: "In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know", John 1:26. But the initiated do know Him.

J.T.Jr. Therefore we know the Lord in the way that He comes in amongst us, now; He comes, in His own way, to the assembly.

J.T. Just so; and we have been made great enough to understand these things; and at night we can think that we are numbered amongst so distinguished a people.

J.T.Jr. You mean that our nights can be profitable for contemplation of Christ?

J.T. Just so.

A.N.W. It was John, in chapter 21, who discerned that it was the Lord, "That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved says to Peter, It is the Lord", John 21:7.

J.T. Just so.

A.R. Would the Lord's word about John bear on the rapture or on Christ's appearing?

J.T. I would think it is the rapture.

R.C.R. Is John a reserve man, in that way, abiding to see the saints through till the Lord comes?

J.T. Just so; "If I will that he abide till I come", John 21:22.