Pages 1 - 289 -- "Readings in U.S.A. and Canada", 1948 (Volume 184).

PETER'S FIRST EPISTLE AS BEARING ON THE PRESENT MOMENT (1)

1 Peter 1:1 - 25

J.T. The first epistle by Peter is selected at this time because it is believed that this epistle enters peculiarly into the present moment. Perhaps we may also look a little into the second epistle if time permits. The present time involves the government of God, not His direct government but His indirect government. Although His direct government is much alluded to in these epistles it is not the general thought in them. It is a question of the position of the believers at the beginning, that is to say, those who are of the circumcision, and as of it and having had a place with God earlier they are viewed as scattered, as sojourners; that is to say, they are not in their own land. There may be a comparison drawn between their position and ours, for in our case there has been a change, a revival after departure.

The general position of the assembly is, you might say, altered because it has become a mere profession, as judaism had become. Christianity has now become this in a public sense and we have to accept this and to see how we are to move in relation to the assembly in a spiritual sense; not simply viewed publicly but, in a spiritual sense, because the assembly still exists, as indeed Judaism existed when the epistle of James was written and even when Peter's epistle was written. James says, "to the twelve tribes which are in the dispersion, greeting" James 1:1. That is to say, the position was there, but it was only true spiritually because they were scattered. Peter's thought is to link them up with

the assembly although he hardly ever mentions the assembly. That is another thing that might be noted. At the same time the Lord calls them in, according to Matthew, because of Peter's confession; not his profession, but his confession. He had listened to what was said as to the Son of man, who He was; and the question is now, dear brethren, as to the titles that the Lord Jesus has, whatever they may be, that whether it is 'Son of man' or 'Son of God' we should be intelligent about them. Peter hardly ever mentions the Son of God, only once indeed, and that in his second epistle. I am referring to these facts because it is important that the brethren should have them in their minds. So when the Lord raised the question as to who the Son of man was Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" Matthew 16:16. That is what he said, one of the greatest confessions one could make then or now. The Lord says, "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens" Matthew 16:17.

So that we are on spiritual lines. I mean as regards the epistle of Peter we are on spiritual lines; but at the same time we are on governmental lines. Matters have grown into governmental positions and brethren have to understand that this refers to them in their working relations, in their household relations, and in their business relations, so that we know where we are and know how to speak of our circumstances. The Lord says to Peter, "Thou art Peter", Matthew 16:17, a word we should all take to heart as to what we are spiritually. The word 'Peter' covers the reality of christianity; it is a question of what the believer is as a christian and because he is a christian. So the Lord says, "Thou art Peter", Matthew 16:17, and the next thing is "I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens" Matthew 16:19.

One refers to this so that the brethren might understand what we are, each of us, spiritually, and what our relations with God are. Peter's relations with God were not simply connected with the assembly but with governmental matters; it is a question of the government of things. So the Lord says, "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly" Matthew 16:17. That is to say, the assembly belongs to Christ, a very important matter to keep before us. The assembly belongs to Christ and to Christ only; it still has that status, so that we know where we are in that sense. But then there is the government that Peter was brought into as the book of Acts shows. Acts 10 indicates that the gentiles were brought into the assembly publicly. Therefore it is a question of the dear brethren having all these things in their minds so that in dealing with matters they know what is meant; because if we are to understand and gather help in our souls in these meetings we have to learn to name things. God begins with the idea of naming things, Adam was constituted with intelligence by which to name things. He named the creatures, and it was he who named the woman, not God. He says, "This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh" Genesis 2:23. So that as rightly understood it is a question of Christ in that sense, the assembly is bone of His bones and flesh of His flesh. So if the dear brethren will be free to say what they have in mind, as to whether what I say is the truth or not, I shall be thankful, for it is a time of speaking the truth and being of the truth.

S.McC. Would the thought of "sanctification of the Spirit" 1 Peter 1:2 strengthen what you have been referring to as to what is spiritual, in contrast to fleshly sanctification in judaism?

J.T. That is a point to keep in mind, that we are not simply christians by name or profession, but by sanctification. The position is that we are sanctified;

as it says, "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by sanctification of the Spirit" 1 Peter 1:2; not simply that we are called such, but we are such because of sanctification. Whatever the word 'sanctification' may mean, that is the position. The christians here are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" 1 Peter 1:2, not only called that, but "by sanctification of the Spirit, unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:2. That is a term that Peter would understand as extending back to the Old Testament; it is a question of the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:2, that is to say, it is His blood; not the blood of bulls and goats, but His blood.

Ques. Do you mean that the expression, "by sanctification", means that it is evidently so by their filling their part as allotted to them?

J.T. Just so, it is evidently so. It was not simply a question of professing christians but they were evidently sanctified; that is in our case that the Spirit of God possesses us; we are governed by Him.

J.H.E. Paul could say, "By the grace of God I am what I am", 1 Corinthians 15:10.

J.T. Quite so, but that meant his apostleship; in the main that was his apostleship.

A.R. Do you think that in John 1 the Lord Jesus is seen as the last Adam? He calls Peter 'Cephas', "thou shalt be called Cephas"; so he is called 'Peter' in Matthew 16. In Genesis 1 Adam named the animals, but in John 1 Peter is named Cephas.

J.T. Very good, "thou shalt be called". The Lord is speaking as the last Adam; He said, "Thou shalt be called Cephas" Matthew 16:17, and the meaning is that Peter is a stone.

Ques. Why, in an epistle that deals so much with the government of God, should this thought of election come in?

J.T. I think it is that Peter would deal with christianity in a true sense. We shall see that the government of God comes in our relations down here, but Peter is really dealing with christianity. That is what is in mind; although he is dealing with the circumcision, he is dealing with christianity.

A.N.W. Is that why he brings the Trinity in? "The foreknowledge of God the Father", the "sanctification of the Spirit", and "the blood of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:2. He brings in the whole Trinity right from the outset. I wondered if that confirmed what you said, that he has the whole of christianity before him.

J.T. I am glad you bring that up because it is one of the most important questions that could be asked. Peter has a great place in Matthew. It is said, "first … Peter" Matthew 10:2 there -- he is the leading apostle according to Matthew. Matthew tells us about the baptismal formula, that it is "to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19; that is, one name but three Persons. It is the Godhead that is in mind, but one name covering it. Hence it is a question of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is covered in that name; if it is mentioned, the Holy Spirit is covered in it.

Ques. Is that what you had in mind in Matthew 16, that immediately the relation of the Father and the Son is mentioned you have the Lord speaking to Peter of "my assembly"?

J.T. Just so.

Rem. The Spirit is implied in the economy.

J.T. The Spirit is implied in the economy; that is a good word. Therefore the importance that the Spirit should have, which I doubt that He has had in a full sense among the brethren. But I do not intend to bring that forward just now, only that it was mentioned before that the three Persons are involved here, and of course They are involved at Pentecost

as the Spirit came down. The gospel is preached by the Spirit sent from heaven, not simply come, but sent. The Lord Jesus is not said to be sent from heaven; He is sent, of course, as on earth, but the Spirit is sent from heaven.

S.McC. What do you see in that, being sent from heaven?

J.T. I think it is to show how the blessed Spirit takes a lowly place. He is here as the sent One but He is still nevertheless one of the Trinity, of the Godhead, and if He takes a lowly place we are not to despise Him on that account. We are to have a clear apprehension of Him in His infiniteness as part of the Godhead. If God is mentioned as such, then the Spirit is included.

Rem. So that if persons are baptised and brought on to christian ground, it is in relation to the full revelation of God in the present economy.

J.T. Quite so, and not only that, but the Spirit is a divine Person, and if He is spoken to as indicated in the Old Testament Scriptures, the authority of the Old Testament remains unbroken. The Lord Himself says the Scripture cannot be broken.

J.R.H. What difference do you see between the Spirit of God descending on the Lord as a dove and His being sent from heaven? I had in mind the word 'descending' and then 'sent'.

J.T. I think it is to bring out the greatness of Christ really. It was at the time of the Lord's baptism. The one who was sent to baptise was told that he should see the Spirit descending upon Him; "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending … he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit" John 1:33. There it is 'descending', not 'sent'. Of course that is a question of a divine Person, a Person who has power to descend as well as to ascend.

Ques. Could it be said that the economy is in full operation when the Spirit is sent from heaven?

J.T. I think that is good, in full operation, and the Spirit is in subjection in that too.

S.McC. Would you say something more as to the authority of the Old Testament Scriptures as bearing on this matter of the Spirit? Generally it is thought that in regard to doctrine we should rely more on the New Testament. Would you say more about the authority of the Old?

J.T. "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable", it says 2 Timothy 3:16. So that Scripture has its own authority whether in the Old Testament or the New. That is, it has authority. It is divinely inspired and whatever it says has to be bowed to; only if it is a question of Paul's missions and offices, it is only spiritual and intelligent that we should refer to him. If it is a matter under his office, such as the mystery, it is only intelligent that we should refer to him first, but not altogether, because the fact that a scripture belongs to the Old Testament does not weaken its authority. It would be entirely wrong to say that it did.

S.McC. What you have now said is very helpful indeed. Do you mean that the matter of the Holy Spirit as you have been referring to Him does not necessarily lie within the scope of Paul's commission, although involved in it?

J.T. Yes, not necessarily. The types speak of Him in a very full way, especially Genesis 24; it speaks of the Holy Spirit in type and that type has the same force as if it were in the New Testament.

Ques. Is it noteworthy that Paul's word in Timothy, "Every scripture is divinely inspired, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for correction, for instruction in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, fully fitted to every good work" 2 Timothy 3:16, refers largely to the Old Testament scriptures?

J.T. Very good, I am glad you bring that up, "every scripture"; so that we must have every Scripture to have the full thought.

E.A.L. Should we be helped by bearing in mind that the Lord quoted from the Old Testament?

J.T. Quite so. The New Testament did not exist, you mean. The Lord said, "The scripture cannot be broken" John 10:35, and that stands as much now as it did then.

J.R.H. Does not the Lord Jesus raise the question, "If ye do not believe his [Moses'] writings, how shall ye believe my words"? John 5:47.

J.T. Quite so. What we are saying now is, I would say, fundamental for the brethren to have in their minds. Not that we wish to emphasise this particular phase of the truth. We have Peter before us at the moment -- but at the same time what we are saying now is fundamental and very important at the present time. And that is the idea at these general meetings, to bring out what is important at any given time.

Rem. If a certain matter that is before us is not referred to in the New Testament, but is in the Old Testament types, it is still authoritative.

J.T. That is fundamental, I would say. I use that word designedly so that the brethren might be on sure ground in what we are saying.

Ques. The Lord Jesus spoke of making void the word of God. Would that confirm it?

J.T. Just so; how easily it could be done, too, in the similes we use and the like! In our preachings and in our teachings how easily we can make void the word of God!

Ques. Is it by vain conversation? Peter speaks of being redeemed from the "vain conversation" of the fathers in this very chapter 1 Peter 1:18.

J.T. That is another thing from which we are redeemed: here it is not from the world or from our

sins, but from vain traditions. We are redeemed from them, and the world is full of them, vain traditions.

Ques. Going back to your opening remarks in regard of the government of God as it descended on Judaism as refusing Christ, has it not descended on christendom as having turned away from the truth? The position is governmentally fixed on mere profession; is that what you have in mind?

J.T. I am not so sure that I would say that of the profession of christianity, because after all there are many genuine christians there.

Ques. I mean mere profession. Is it not noticeable now that the deterioration in what is established is extraordinarily accelerated?

J.T. It is accelerated, as you say. At the same time, while real christians exist in the profession you hesitate to make the pronouncement too general because you have to distinguish when we speak of christianity or christians as to whether they are real or not. The unreal ones might appear to be real and therefore I think we should hesitate to fix a judgment on them.

Rem. I can see we need to guard that. I was thinking more of the pernicious doctrines which are gaining ground that have not a shred of truth in them; which is so much a phase of the last days.

J.T. Just so: Unitarianism, for instance, and Christian Science, doctrines that simply make men apostate. But at the same time you take the mass of those in christendom, Baptists and the like, there are many of them real; so that I just wonder if we should not make the distinction, because God has not yet cast off christendom altogether. In fact He is going on with the assembly and that is His chief interest on earth. But whatever the Jews are doing today, the Jews are simply apostate.

Ques. What had you in mind in using the word government just now?

J.T. What I have in mind immediately is in the opening words of our chapter: "Peter, apostle of Jesus Christ, to the sojourners of the dispersion", 1 Peter 1:1. Where were the sojourners? Where were they dispersed? That is a question of government; God did that. That is all that I had in mind, because the dispersion alludes to something that has happened among the Jews, even the real ones. These are real ones and they are dispersed; they are not in their own land.

Rem. I just wanted to get clear in my mind how far you wished us to go on that line.

J.T. The government of God extends too to what is current with God in the world today; what the brethren are now engaged in, for instance. The word in 1 Peter 2:13 is, "Be in subjection therefore to every human institution … whether to the king as supreme …", that is spoken to christians. If they were living in the reign of David they would think of him as king; but the king today is not David, nor anyone who has any place with God spiritually, but he is an official to maintain government. Therefore I would say that the President has his place, that he has a governmental position over us as we sit here today. And we respect him; "the king as supreme", as Peter says. "Be in subjection therefore to every human institution for the Lord's sake; whether to the king as supreme, or to rulers as sent by him, for vengeance on evil-doers, and praise to them that do well" 1 Peter 2:13,14. Well now, the President has that position today, and we respect him; but he is not David, he is not Christ. Still, he has a governmental position and God has placed him there as He placed Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus in their offices.

Ques. In your prayer at the beginning you mentioned that the government of this country is only

provisional until such time as the Lord comes. Would it not help us to be subject to the governments if we saw them in that light?

J.T. I think it would. And so if a question comes up of need among the brethren, even physical need, there is no reason why we should not recognise the authorities of the city in accepting help because God has appointed them to look after these things.

Rem. They are God's ministers for good.

J.T. Exactly. Many do not see that; they think of the authorities as if they were synonymous with the world; whereas they are not just that. We have to be intelligent as to these things.

A.N.W. "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" 1 Peter 1:2 would be beyond, outside of all government?

J.T. It would be; in that connection we are dealing directly with God.

Ques. In speaking of government, had you in mind the government of God in relation to us as His children as well as in the more general sense through the provisional governments of the world? It says, "If ye invoke as Father him who, without regard of persons, judges according to the work of each, pass your time of sojourn in fear" 1 Peter 1:17. I wondered whether you had in mind that side as well as the more public position.

J.T. The position of children is more directly under God.

Rem. I wondered whether you had that in mind in your opening remarks and whether the sense that we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" 1 Peter 1:2 would not greatly help us to get the gain of all God's dealings with us?

J.T. Quite so. We are under the Father, of course. Therefore we treat our children accordingly, and point out to them that we are invoking God as Father for their benefit.

G.McP. How would the government of God work out in the assembly in the local setting?

J.T. It is a question of what item you refer to. We are speaking now of the king as supreme and of those appointed by him. If we are doing anything involving relations with him it is a question of the government of God and we have to regard him; if it is your employer, you have to regard him.

G.McP. I was thinking of how Peter was used of God in the book of the Acts to discern Ananias and Sapphira, and of how the government of God exposed the whole thing.

J.T. You mean that what happened to Ananias and Sapphira was the government of God? Well, that was so; but Ananias and Sapphira were not simply professors of christianity, they were real and therefore were buried. They had a burial. They are recognized as christians and the young men would bury them. Peter did not slay them; Peter did not have anything to do with their death; God did it. Therefore it was a question of God dealing governmentally with two of His children, I would say. They are people who are christians and have to come under the government of God. They die. Paul said, "Many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep", 1 Corinthians 11:30. That is government, but it is on those who are really God's people. It is quite in order to bring that up; but what I had in mind was this question of sojourners and the position of the Jews, and then the relative connection with our position now, because we have come into a revival. Peter was dealing with the ancient people of God and they had come into a revival. They were born again. Now the word 'again' means, not simply that they were born again in the ordinary sense, but that, as belonging to an ancient system that God had honoured and instituted really, they are revived. And we are revived into

christianity. We are revived in relation to that which has a great place with God; that is, the assembly.

Ques. You are speaking of the recovery now?

J.T. That is right, one hundred and fifty years ago. That is to say we are revived to something that had been there before.

Ques. You mean the truth of the assembly?

J.T. Yes, it had been lost.

E.C.T. Your exercise is that we should be in it livingly, as real christians?

J.T. That is the idea. That is what Peter meant. It is a question whether we are in the genuineness of it, whether we belong to the revival, not simply to christianity but to the revival of it.

E.C.T. The more spiritual we are the better sojourners we should be.

A.R. Do you mean we should all be living stones?

J.T. We shall come to that in the next chapter; that is true; it is a question of being living stones. Verse 3 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to his great mercy, has begotten us again" -- not simply 'begotten us' but "begotten us again" -- "to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance" 1 Peter 1:3. That is, He has "begotten us again"; what was there before is now revived. It is a living hope, a real one.

C.A.M. In connection with revival in Peter would you say that he is looking back through the Old Testament, and every matter that was referred to there is made living, as for instance the thought of the inheritance, and the sprinkling of the blood and everything that God had suggested in the books of Moses?

J.T. Just so. Then he adds to what we have already quoted, "to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance, reserved in the heavens

for you" 1 Peter 1:4; that is to say, the christians are now, through Peter, being reminded of their heavenly part, not in the literal Canaan but in the heavens, He goes on, "you, who are kept guarded by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time", 1 Peter 1:5. "The last time" refers to all the dispensations; because it is a question of dispensations. The salvation is ready to be revealed in the last time, and that is most precious to us because we are on the eve of the last time.

Rem. That is the world to come?

J.T. Just so, that would be in mind.

Ques. There is one more dispensation after this?

J.T. The world to come is a dispensation, the millennial world is a dispensation. He goes on, "Wherein ye exult, for a little while at present, if needed, put to grief by various trials" 1 Peter 1:6. Notice that, it is the government of God in the midst of persecution. It is being credited to them -- "that the proving of your faith, much more precious than of gold which perishes, though it be proved by fire, be found to praise and glory and honour in the revelation of Jesus Christ: whom, having not seen, ye love" -- that is important -- "on whom though not now looking, but believing, ye exult with joy unspeakable and filled with the glory, receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls" 1 Peter 1:6 - 9. All these verses are full of precious instruction for us, looking toward the end. We shall see all this; the end of what we are going through is the salvation of our souls in the true sense.

C.T. Would the thought in verse 3 as to "great mercy" be the basis of all these thoughts?

J.T. Quite so: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy …" 1 Peter 1:3. The Father is the source of all this. Therefore what Peter received from the Father, that is to say, the knowledge of Christ as the Son of the

living God, enters into it. The Lord recognises him as blessed because he received that revelation from the Father; "my Father who is in the heavens" Matthew 16:17, He says. So that we are dealing with the precious things of the Father although in a governmental position like this.

R.W.S. It says they were exulting. Should not the things of the assembly and heavenly matters help us locally to be buoyant and joyful and not unduly occupied with the breakdown?

J.T. Very good. The idea of buoyancy is a great matter, that the brethren are not here enjoying a holiday or the like, but buoyant in the things of heaven, having to do with the things of which God is the source.

Ques. Why is it the present tense in verse 9, "receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls"?

J.T. I think the meaning is that it is imminent; it is not at a distance, although Peter does distinguish as to how God reckons time. Therefore he says that one day is as a thousand years with God, and a thousand years as one day; we have to bear that in mind. Things may be deferred but at the same time we are already in them; the Spirit of God makes everything present.

Rem. That is very good, because while the inheritance is reserved, when you come to believing you touch what is open to us at the present time.

J.T. The actual things arc here. Christianity is here; we are dealing with it. It is not something at a distance or merely objective, we are dealing with it, we belong to it.

A.B. In your opening remarks you referred to Genesis 2 twice. You referred to Adam naming the animals wholly according to God, and to man naming the woman. Is there a link in your mind with the Spirit in the earlier verses of that chapter? It

says, "A river went out of Eden, to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became four main streams. The name of the one is Pison: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Havilah, where the gold is" Genesis 2:10,11. There are precious stones there. Is that in your mind?

J.T. Just so. The word 'surrounds' involves an enclosure, something that the Spirit is surrounding, the British Empire, for instance; God is mercifully surrounding that system, and this is part of it; this very country we are in now is an extension of it. That is to say, God is mercifully surrounding certain persons or things and we are happy to be in such an enclosure, because we are free in it to go into the things of God. The basis of the surroundings you speak of in Genesis 2 is the first chapter; there the Spirit of God moved on the face of the deep. Well, that is precious, because He is the basis of all this. It is a universal thought.

Rem. That would give us more freedom in prayer in regard to such matters.

J.T. Just so; it is what we began with today; we gave thanks for the President and those in power. I believe that under the government of God the President of this country at the time of the last war was used for its cessation. Some may say we are going far afield to talk like that, but it is right to talk like that, and we can count on God to come in again; we are in the midst of strenuous matters and God is coming in for us from time to time.

A.B. I was linking Genesis 2 with what Peter says here in regard to the gold that perishes; the gold that the Spirit surrounds is hardly seen in that character, is it?

J.T. If the Spirit of God is surrounding the gold, it is there to be secured. There is, for instance, something to be secured in what we are having here

today, something in the way of precious light for us by which we should be built up.

S.McC. What you said a little while ago as to government would help us very much as to trade unionism which the governments are taking in hand in different parts of the world.

J.T. We had that matter up a few months ago in New Zealand, and it was a very precious thing that God came in too, in Detroit, on that point. I think He is coming in again, not only in Detroit but in the United States generally. Trade unionism has not the same place in the United States that it has elsewhere and God has done that.

Ques. You would distinguish most definitely between the enactments of such bodies and the enactments of governments?

J.T. Certainly. I have no respect for enactments of trade unions because they are not of God at all; but government is of God.

Ques. So that the "human institution" does not cover that?

J.T. No indeed!

A.R. Do you think that what goes on in the governments is what goes on in the hearts of the saints to begin with?

J.T. Well, it is a question of divine thoughts in our minds, because what goes on in the governments may exceed what we are talking about; but in general there is the thought that God has used this country in His governmental ways, even down to the matter of food. God is using it, and we should not despise it.

Ques. So that in praying for governments we would have the testimony in mind particularly?

J.T. Exactly. We have the greatest liberty every Monday night in praying for the governments. Some

among us, alas, have put us through distress in that they despise the government and would not receive from the government, whereas government is of God and is toward us for good.

PETER'S FIRST EPISTLE AS BEARING ON THE PRESENT MOMENT (2)

1 Peter 2:1 - 25

J.T. It is thought that we covered chapter 1 fairly well, only that the reference to being born again should be looked at a little further. There are two such references in the chapter, the first in verse 3, where it says, "who, according to his great mercy" -- referring to the Father -- "has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead" 1 Peter 1:3. And then in verse 22 we read, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently; being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God" 1 Peter 1:22,23. These passages may be compared with chapter 3 of John's gospel where we have the signal allusion, "Except anyone be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God" John 3:3. It would seem that the brethren would do well to look at these passages and make some comparisons; they would be for our profit. That is to say, John 3 is basic as to the work of God in our souls; there it is not 'born again' but "born anew", whereas here in verse 3 it is "begotten us again"; it is a plural thought, whereas John 3 is singular. Peter says the Father has "begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from among the dead" 1 Peter 1:3. Then in verse 22 it is, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another out of a pure heart fervently; being born again … by the living and abiding word of God" 1 Peter 1:22,23. In John 3 new birth is by the Spirit; it is a sovereign act of God, but basic, basic to the work of God generally in each of us; whereas here it is a question of the

word; it is not viewed as by a divine Person, but by the living and abiding word of God. That is to say the believer is thus viewed as begotten or born by the action of the word of God; and it is to full christianity, so that all the features of the truth are seen here as attaching to a person born again. Our souls are purified, it is said, by obedience to the truth to unfeigned brotherly love, and then we are exhorted that we should love one another out of a pure heart fervently. The scripture says, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God" 1 Peter 1:23. The word of God refers to what is in His mind, and the believer is viewed as begotten by it; not simply by the sovereign action of a divine Person as in John 3, but by it, by the word.

Ques. Do I understand you to mean that John 3 is initial and constitutional, whereas "born again" in verse 23 would involve a change of outlook and circumstances, and fresh light governing the position?

J.T. Yes, and that the word, that is, the mind of God, enters into it.

Rem. It is 'to' something in both cases in this chapter; "to a living hope", and "to unfeigned brotherly love".

J.T. The 'to' in verse 3 as alluded to this morning refers back by contrast to the Old Testament, to what God had effected for Israel then; but now it is to a living hope and it is through the resurrection of Christ -- not simply through the word, not simply through a sovereign act of God or of the Spirit, but by the action of the resurrection on the mind.

Ques. Would it be right to say that from John's viewpoint, that of the sovereign action of the Spirit, there might be some delay before the person is conscious of what has been effected; but from Peter's viewpoint, especially in verse 23, there would be an

immediate consciousness with the person of a communication from God?

J.T. Quite so, and he is in the family really, because the effect of it is unfeigned brotherly love. One might be really born anew according to John and yet not have all these characteristics. And they are very much needed because we are apt to imbibe -- and aside from the action of the word we have imbibed -- wrong thoughts about our brethren so that we say wrong things about them.

A.R. It says, "Having purified your souls by obedience to the truth" 1 Peter 1:22; that comes in before brotherly love.

J.T. Well, the truth is another point; it is not simply the word, but the truth. The truth is the measure of things; everything must be measured by truth. But the word refers to the mind of God, very near akin, of course, to the truth, but we are told, "Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" John 1:17. If we are to be in brotherly relations, if we are to be in family relations, this passage must be a guide to us, for we are not real christians if we are not marked by christian feelings and affections.

A.N.W. So that "Thou … canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth" would not quite apply here as it does in John 3:8, would you say? There it is not observable, but here the matter becomes observable.

J.T. What is alluded to in John 3 is really a sovereign action, just as the wind acts sovereignly. You cannot follow it, as it were. "Thou … canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit" John 3:8. Whereas the mind of God, that is, the word of God, imparts or conveys the idea of intelligence as to everything. The man in the gospels saw all things clearly.

S.McC. So these adjectives that are used here are important, are they not? Unfeigned brotherly love,

and a pure heart, so that what we say is in correspondence with what is underneath. I was thinking of the importance of it in our brotherly relations.

J.T. It is most important that our brotherly relations should be regulated by the truth, by the word or by the truth. Otherwise we cannot assume to be in fellowship or practically in the truth for any service to God.

Rem. This would involve evident results in those who are affected, without which the reality may be queried. I thought that Peter, from the way in which he is putting the thing forward, was speaking to those who evidenced that they had been affected. So with us, if there is nothing to show by way of result it raises a query as to the reality of the transaction.

J.R.H. Is this like John's epistle where it says, "every one that loves has been begotten of God"? 1 John 4:7.

J.T. Just so, that is the full thought of christianity, whereas "born anew" is not the full thought. It requires redemption and all that enters into redemption for the man to be fully in the truth. Therefore the "born anew" in John's gospel is an initial thought, and not the full thought.

W.W.M. In 1 Thessalonians 4:9 it says, "Now concerning brotherly love ye have no need that we should write to you, for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another". Would that be the essence of "the word"?

J.T. Very good, "taught of God" is the word. That is a question of understanding, and that by teaching.

W.W.M. Would that come from the recognition of the mental milk of the word? Mr. Darby's footnote says it is derived from logos.

J.T. Just so, it is more particularly the mind.

Ques. Does this involve a testimony rendered? "This is the word which in the glad tidings is preached to you" 1 Peter 1:25.

J.T. Very good, so that the word is identified with the glad tidings, and therefore we are to preclude all novelties in our preachings. We are to keep to the truth, keep to the word.

E.A.L. There is a very interesting footnote to verse 1 in the second epistle of John; 'It is the character of the love; love in truth',The'is not in the Greek, and I do not think it is meant to be. It is not'truly love', though, as the apostle teaches us here, there can be no truly loving but in the truth'.

J.T. That is important, 'no truly loving but in the truth'. So that we may pretend to love, but if the truth is not regulating us it is not love in the truth.

Ques. Would the confession of a soul when he accepts the Lord as his Saviour be on this line that he is really evidencing that he has been born again according to verse 23?

J.T. Surely, if he confesses it. But the question is how the confession is brought about. We may draw out confessions from people, young people especially, and they do not understand what they are confessing; whereas the point is to make it clear what they are confessing, what it means, that the truth is the truth.

Ques. That involves the system that God is owning down here in the assembly, does it not?

J.T. Well, whether Peter goes into that fully is a question. We alluded already to the fact that he scarcely ever refers to the assembly formally. I do not know that he ever does.

Ques. Do I gather that while he does not formally mention the term he really gives us the constituent parts of it in the way he presents the truth?

J.T. We shall see that in this very chapter. I thought now we might turn to the body of the chapter,

because the body of it is, "Laying aside therefore all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envyings and all evil speakings, as new-born babes desire earnestly the pure mental milk of the word, that by it ye may grow up to salvation" 1 Peter 2:1,2; that is to say, salvation is not simply a confession but we grow up to it, a very important matter; we are persons growing up to the thing; "if indeed ye have tasted that the Lord is good. To whom coming, a living stone". Now we have come to the idea of the assembly in the stones that form it.

S.McC. This "therefore" in the first verse would have a backward reference to the new birth as Peter presents it. And would not the laying aside of these five things be important in view of the working out of the features of the system as Peter has it in mind?

J.T. I think so, only the Spirit of God is implied in all that Peter refers to here; not simply the sovereign action of the Spirit, but the Spirit of God and the truth involved in redemption are in mind here. A newborn babe, even if he is a babe, has all the faculties and characteristics of a human being.

Rem. All the potentialities are there.

J.T. The potentialities, a good word; so that a newborn babe has all that is needed, only it is a question of growth and the growth involves, of course, the truth as presented to him so that he is governed by it.

J.R.H. Would this involve that it is very important to get clear of all that would hamper our minds in our relations with each other, in order to hold our minds in relation to the truth?

J.T. So that our relations must be governed by the truth; we must bring the truth into all that enters into our business affairs and household affairs and let it have its full place with us. That is of prime importance.

Ques. Paul in writing to the Hebrews speaks of full grown men having their senses exercised to discern between good and evil. That would cover every department of life, would it not?

J.T. The five senses, just so. That, of course, would bear on what you say as to the potentialities of a babe.

R.W.S. Is it not important under what kind of gospel preaching we become saved? It says, "that by it ye may grow up to salvation" 1 Peter 2:2. There is not much gain in introducing popular evangelism or emotional stimulus into our gospel preachings, is there?

J.T. We must avoid all the popular evangelisation that is current. If we are to be used of God, we must be governed by the truth.

Ques. Does not the truth give the preacher enormous scope without resorting to anything else?

J.T. It does. It is what was preached by Peter and Paul. Peter was the first preacher of christianity and we are therefore entitled to regard his preaching as a model for us in preaching the gospel.

C.T. Would the preaching of the truth bring the soul to a place like the inn in Luke 10?

J.T. I would say that.

Rem. Often something specific is used by the Lord. The centurion says, "only speak a word, and my servant shall be healed". Matthew 8:8.

J.T. Quite so. In Paul's epistle to Timothy it is said, "proclaim the word". The brethren have largely changed the inscription that announces the preaching; it is so in England and in general here and in most other places. Instead of announcing the gospel to be preached it is the preaching of the word.

Rem. I think we have been coming to it. The word is penetrating, as you said in Sydney, and it covers every phase of what God is communicating.

A.N.W. "This is the word which in the glad tidings is preached to you", 1 Peter 1:25. Should the word be embodied in the glad tidings?

J.T. That is what we were saying. "This is the word" is the identification of what they were committed to. It is the word of God; the mind of God is brought into the soul of the believer in His word.

J.W.D. In the account of Cornelius' conversion there are two Greek words used, one for 'words', and another for 'word': "While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word" Acts 10:44. What would be the difference in the two ideas?

J.T. I think what is in mind in Acts 10 is that the Spirit of God acted of Himself without waiting for any confession by those who were listening to Peter, because the Spirit of God was there Himself and intended to act by Himself to bring the gentiles into the assembly. It was a direct action of the Spirit, not for new birth but to bring them into the assembly.

A.N.W. It says in 1 Thessalonians 2:13, "And for this cause we also give thanks to God unceasingly that, having received the word of the report of God by us, ye accepted, not men's word, but, even as it is truly, God's word, which also works in you who believe".

J.T. That is an excellent passage to quote in what we are saying. In that chapter it is a question of those who believed in Judaea being set out as models for the Thessalonians. The Thessalonians were gentiles, but the assemblies in Judaea were formed of Jewish christians, and the Spirit of God refers to them as models, indicating that there was a universal viewpoint among the Thessalonians in accepting the position in Judaea. They were wholly free from national feelings and ready to join in with their brethren in the truth of christianity. They were

a long way off too, the distance was great between Thessalonica and the assemblies in Judaea. It is very important for brethren to be wholly free from national feelings where the truth is involved, whether it be in Judaea or Australia or wherever it be. It is no question of the locality or the country but of what the Spirit of God is doing and where He is doing it. That is to say, He is forming the assembly and all that goes with the assembly.

Ques. So that Paul says, "thus I ordain in all the assemblies". That would cover his wide travels, would it not?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Is it not important that the brethren should have their notice boards as to the preaching uniform in this matter?

J.T. Well, F.E.R. said to me once that a man who is going to preach the gospel should write his name to the announcement; but I am not so sure about that.

Ques. Do you think that if every preacher did what Jonah was told to do, "preach … the preaching that I shall bid thee" Jonah 3:2, every preaching would have the character of the word of God?

J.T. Quite so, but Jonah went a roundabout way to get to it.

A.R. Jonah had to go down to Sheol to carry out the injunction given to him.

Ques. Was this not said to him after he was recommissioned? is not that important, that through his experience he was able to do what he was bidden? He really avoided what he was sent to do before.

J.T. I think we have to go to his book to get the full word from him as to his exercises, and we thank God for his book. Many, modernly, have ridiculed the book of Jonah but it is a very important part of Scripture.

E.C.T. Is it not desirable to carry the preaching outside, as Jonah did?

J.T. Just so, to preach on the streets. That matter came up in Australia because in that country they had begun to say the time for open air preaching was past, but I do not think it is past. It began with Peter but it should not end with him. We might as well follow it out as we speak about Peter.

Ques. Do you think that as Peter's first preaching had the effect of drawing persons into a sphere of salvation so his ministry here would do the same?

J.T. Just so; besides, the converts were respectful to the apostles. We are told "they persevered in the teaching and fellowship of the apostles, in breaking of bread and prayers" Acts 2:42. Then we are told they broke bread in the house; it was not a formal church or the like, or even the temple; it was in the house. The breaking of bread is mentioned first and then it says that they broke bread in the house, as if the family thought is retained in connection with the breaking of bread.

Now we want to see in this chapter the thought of the assembly. So it says, "To whom coming, a living stone" -- that is Christ -- "cast away indeed as worthless by men, but with God chosen, precious, yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 2:4,5. So that we have a formal allusion here in the second chapter to the actual service of God. This service of God is in relation first of all to Christ as the rejected Saviour, and then to the saints as living stones.

A.R. Does this verse refer to Solomonic service and work, "being built up a spiritual house"? Apparently the stones are built together for the house. That is what Solomon did, is it not?

J.T. Well, of course the building is by God. The house is the family thought, and then the holy priesthood

is the persons who serve in it, and the offering of spiritual sacrifices is what they give. It is a question of giving. First the sphere of the house, and then the priesthood -- those who do the service -- and then what we give -- spiritual sacrifices. There are these three things, the sphere, the persons who serve, and then the sacrifices -- that is, what is given, given to God.

J.R.H. This matter of "yourselves also" -- does that bring forward the real work of God in the souls of the saints?

J.T. Just so. One has had the privilege of speaking on that word "yourselves" as bringing out what we are. It is a reflex action, what comes back to ourselves. And so here it is what we are ourselves and governed by the truth as regards the sphere of service, and then the persons who serve, and then what we give God is the object in all of these cases, because it is God's service we are dealing with,

Ques. Would the man in Acts 3 be a kind of example of what Peter has in mind, a man lifted out of his impotency and not only able to stand with the brethren in testimony but able to enter in with them, walking and leaping and praising God? Is he not brought forward by Peter to the sanhedrim as an example of salvation? He says, "salvation is in none other" Acts 4:12.

J.T. Very good. There we touch not simply on Peter, but on the combination of Peter and John. Acts 3 is the Peter and John chapter. That is, you have two great servants serving together without any feeling, which is very important; if we are to serve at all we are to serve together.

J.W.D. As to the third item you mentioned -- what we give -- what force would the word 'spiritual' have in relation to that?

J.T. It is a question of whether we are spiritual; it is not a question of money. It is a matter of

spiritual sacrifices, and we have therefore to learn to use the Old Testament types in an anti-typical sense, to see what the antitypes mean; that is to say, what the word 'spiritual' means as applied to them.

Rem. It is encouraging as well as exercising to see that in the Old Testament in regard to such matters you have the thought of tithing and first-fruits so often introduced, which shows that calculation enters into the matter.

J.T. Well, it is a question of what you can offer to God. The Lord's supper is intended to resolve itself into the actual service of God. We proceed from glory to glory, so that we are now entering on a great and glorious system of things; and we must see how the word 'spiritual' applies in what we have to offer to God on the first day of the week. Of course, sisters cannot speak, but they can do it in effect if they are spiritual, that is, in aiding what is going on. What there is at any given time is not the four walls of the place; it is the persons who are there, because that is where the sphere is. The sphere of service is in the persons.

Ques. Does not the truth of the body in that sense underlie the thought of the assembly?

J.T. Exactly. Therefore the Lord's supper involves the idea of the body. "We, being many, are one loaf, one body; for we all partake of that one loaf" 1 Corinthians 10:17. That is the idea of the persons who form the sphere of the service.

Ques. When the apostle Paul in Corinthians speaks about presenting the chaste virgin to Christ, would that be a spiritual sacrifice?

J.T. It would indeed, but that is a highly apostolic thought. Who could do it but Paul? I do not believe anyone could do it but Paul, or the Lord Jesus, to present a company of people as at Corinth as a chaste virgin to Christ. And that brings up the

whole question of male and female as regards the service of God, that is, brothers and sisters, and as to when we advance into the full feminine thought, Christ being the masculine. I am touching on things which will be raising questions later and I hope they will raise questions, for the idea of male and female must come into consideration in this matter, because that is the mind of God. The feminine word is used as to the assembly, but then with the same persons there is also the idea of brethren of Christ and sons of God. So we have to understand what all these terms mean.

J.R.H. How would you compare this with what we have in the end of Hebrews, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise continually to God, that is, the fruit of the lips confessing his name"? Hebrews 13:15.

J.T. That is just what I think is meant. It is characteristic of Hebrews as fitting into Peter's epistle.

C.T. What is the force of "by Jesus Christ", in the thought of service?

J.T. It is the mediatorial thought; all reverts to that everything is through Christ. Everything must come through Christ.

Ques. Is there not a stress on the thought of holiness? In this part the priesthood is said to be "a holy priesthood", while later, in the testimonial setting, it is spoken of as "a kingly priesthood". Is the stress on holiness because the house is in view?

J.T. I should think so. 'Kingly' is more dignity, of course; holiness is involved in the service of God. "Be ye holy, for I am holy" 1 Peter 1:16 is a great thought.

Ques. I wondered whether it raised the question of state as well as all that we have been considering?

J.T. Exactly, because you have the fruit of holiness. If we want to go to the basic things in the gospel we have to learn Romans 6:22: "Ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end eternal life".

Rem. So that the word of God would enlighten us as to our standing in divine things, but if we are going to participate actively we must be concerned about state as well as standing.

J.L.P. Would Peter have in mind that those who form part of the assembly are to take character from God in His holiness? He speaks of holy men and holy women.

J.T. Quite so. "Be ye holy, for I am holy" 1 Peter 1:16. We have to begin with God. Perhaps it is a lesson we all have to learn, this thought of holiness: "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" Hebrews 3:1.

S.McC. In regard to this matter of male and female that you referred to: as beginning on the Lord's day morning with what we are as brothers and sisters in this city, masculine and feminine persons in that light, does this thought of a spiritual house rather go into what is beyond that side of the position?

J.T. The word 'house' would be linked up with God, of course; the idea of the house is clearly connected with God.

Ques. Would you not say it is a family thought?

J.T. Just so. It stands in relation to God, although the word 'house' may be connected with Christ in Hebrews; but in general it is a question of God, what belongs to Him and His family. The Lord Jesus is spoken of as having children; He speaks to the disciples as children, which is a matter to be considered too; but properly the house refers to God. The universe indeed is God's house; the whole universe may be regarded in that light.

Ques. The assembly viewed in the testimonial position is composed of men and women as in Corinth; but as soon as you touch the assembly as linked with Christ in its holy, spiritual setting, it takes a feminine character throughout, does it not?

J.T. Well, I would say that. The pronouns translated by 'it' in Ephesians 5:25 and 26 are feminine, so that the feminine is seen fully in the assembly. It must be understood that the feminine has to be there. "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", Paul says Ephesians 5:32. What does he mean? He means the masculine and the feminine.

Rem. That is between Christ and the assembly; but when you come to the personnel that compose the assembly you have mentioned the thought of brethren and sons.

J.T. That has to be understood, and therefore we are addressed as intelligent persons; that is the word used. And so we know what to do and say when we come to the feminine side in the service of God.

Rem. I do not think anything could be more interesting.

J.T. That is right. I do not know that there is anything more so and it will be so eternally.

J.T.Jr. Would 1 Peter 1:2, to which we alluded this morning, underlie what you are saying as to the feminine side? The stress is on "the obedience". I thought that reference might be connected with the Supper, that is, the obedience of Jesus Christ and then the blood of Jesus Christ; that is, the bread and the cup. Obedience is before us in that scripture objectively, I understand, in Christ, and it is there in the Supper in both emblems.

J.T. It is "unto the obedience", quite so.

J.T.Jr. And that must be before us objectively in order that we might come into it subjectively.

J.T. Quite so, the idea is that. It says, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by sanctification of the Spirit, unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:2. That is, it is unto that end. Do you have in your mind

that that should be a matter kept before us, that we are sanctified to that, to His obedience?

J.T.Jr. Yes, and that the thoughts in that verse really link on with Peter's thought as to the Supper. He does not mention it but the thoughts are there as to the Supper in that verse, are they not?

J.T. Quite so, I would say that. So that the Lord's supper carries with it the idea of obedience and we are sanctified unto that. It is a very important matter as to the young people coming into fellowship.

E.C.T. Is there a link between this idea of obedience, and that of subjection such as we get in Ephesians 5:24 as to the assembly, "even as the assembly is subjected to the Christ"? Is that a proper feminine feature?

J.T. I think it is; and therefore in 1 Corinthians we have headship before we have the Supper introduced, the headship of Christ to the man, then that the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. We have the thought of subjection in the assembly before we have the Lord's supper.

A.M. So also in Ephesians 5:23,24, "as also the Christ is head of the assembly. He is Saviour of the body. But even as the assembly is subjected to the Christ". Is not the feature of lovability in the assembly linked up with that? The apostle seems to work out the idea of affection from that; first of all in husbands loving their wives, and then "as the Christ also loved the assembly".

J.T. Therefore I would say that on the Lord's day, the first day of the week, we do not come to meet the Lord exactly, we come to meet the brethren. Then the next question is whether they are lovable. If the Lord is to have His part we must be concerned that we are all lovable, brothers and sisters. Therefore the first great thought is that we meet one another; we come together to meet one another and to have the Lord's supper. But then if it is to be

His supper there must be subjection, and then lovability will develop according to that.

P. Speaking of lovability, Psalm 45:11 says, "And the king will desire thy beauty; for he is thy Lord, and worship thou him". It is an assembly thought.

J.T. Very good; so that it is a question whether we are lovable when we come together. If the Lord is to come -- because we expect Him to come -- what does He come to? He comes to what is attractive. We are to be attractive and therefore the thought of love must come in. It is a time of love; the Lord's supper is a time of love. There must be attractiveness for love; the full thought of love will work out with attractiveness.

A.R. So in Ephesians 5 you get subjection before you get love.

J.T. That is good.

Rem. It speaks in Isaiah of the bride adorning herself with her jewels. That would be a concern to appear as lovable, would it not? The bridegroom decks himself with a priestly turban; he is brought forward as the example of a man who is clothed with salvation; but the bride adorns herself with her jewels.

J.T. "Priestly turban" is a good expression and it works out in the mind in the full thought of the priesthood in Exodus. We are constituted priests unto Jehovah, but the main thought is the priesthood of Christ.

Ques. If the Lord's supper involves family conditions, which I think you remarked, what is the character of the service of the one who gives thanks for the emblems? Does it partake somewhat of the house-father's service?

J.T. I would think so, only I think it ought to arise where love exists. It is a love circle and the Lord comes to that. Psalm 19 contemplates His coming; it is a love circle He comes to. There you

get all the thoughts the Lord has in His heart; and so what is in mind when we come together is a love circle, we love one another. It comes out immediately we sit down together. We love one another and we are attractive to one another and the Lord is saying when He comes, 'I will come to that'. He is honouring that. It is a love time. But then, who is to serve? Well, I would say it is a question of the thing having to be done and of who can do it. Let it be seen that the person who does it is qualified to do it; it is a time of service; of course, somebody has to do it, but the person will soon show whether he is qualified to do it.

A.B. Would that have a bearing on what you were saying, that it is not so much the abstract position but the reality that love exists among us?

J.T. Love among yourselves, just so. "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love" not 'in yourselves' but "amongst yourselves". That is the word in John 13:35.

A.N.W. What does the idea of the house-father convey?

J.T. I do not think it refers to the assembly properly. It is a quotation from Mr. Darby, a comment on the position at Emmaus.

Ques. Do you think that one really serving in love on such an occasion would carry every element of love among the saints with him?

J.T. I think so, it is the love time and it is a question of heaven. Heaven is looking on and the Lord is coming. He has a right to move as He pleases. That is a cardinal thought about Christ, that He can move as He pleases. We are not to wake Him up until He please, and so when He comes He pleases to come. We want to be sure there is something for Him to come for, that there is that in us which He loves.

C.T. Would the thought in Luke in regard to the passover, "Go and prepare", be in line with that?

J.T. The Lord was thinking of what would be suitable and then He gives guidance as to a certain person. Who that person is we do not know, but he is bearing a pitcher of water and they follow him into the house where he goes. They say to the good-man of the house, "Where is the guest-chamber where I may eat the passover with my disciples?". And the Lord says, "He will shew you a large upper room furnished" Luke 22:11,12. Everything is ready, that is the idea.

Ques. Would Luke's account encourage us to look for a specific touch at the Supper? There seems to be a narrowly converging circle of time: "the feast of unleavened bread … drew nigh", and "the day … came", and "when the hour was come". Would it encourage us to look for the particular touch that the Lord only can give?

J.T. Just so. And then another thing is the place: "He placed himself at table". Sometimes we think of where such and such a one should sit, and it is quite right too. There is a seat for every brother; it is a question of right; the dignity of the brethren requires it, so that each is in his place. It says of the Lord, "He placed himself at table, and the twelve apostles with him" Luke 22:14, not 'disciples'. The authority of the Lord is involved in that. The twelve apostles are with Him.

S.McC. Paul says to the Corinthians, "Now I shall most gladly spend and be utterly spent for your souls, if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved" 2 Corinthians 12:15. If you sat down with him in Corinth, you certainly would have the impression that he was fitted to break the bread, to give thanks.

J.T. Quite so.

Rem. He says, "For I received from the Lord,

that which I also delivered to you". 1 Corinthians 11:23. He would qualify in serving in that way, would he not?

J.T. He would indeed. And he did not want to come until certain things were done, that is another thing. The Lord will not come either until certain things are done.

A.A.T. Who was the master of the house into which the man with the pitcher of water entered in Luke?

J.T. He is the man who is in charge; he is the man who is in the house. I think it would work out very largely into what we have been saying as to the Spirit of God.

Rem. I have enjoyed the thought that the Lord speaks of the Holy Spirit in such a beautiful way as in charge of the guest-chamber, and He was to he spoken to in order to find it.

J.T. Your implied thought then is that the Spirit of God is the Master? Quite so. It is very good to have it in our minds the authority that is vested in the Spirit of God.

PETER'S FIRST EPISTLE AS BEARING ON THE PRESENT MOMENT (3)

1 Peter 3:1 - 22

J.T. I think the brethren will observe that this epistle is marked by certain salient subjects, some of lesser importance but the leading ones have been in mind throughout these readings. It is thought that we should continue on that principle. One thing that has not been observed in our remarks is the use of the article. It is not much employed, so that the things are characteristic rather than specific. As regards the present chapter it may be remarked that the subject at the outset is the family, or rather the household, although Peter does not enlarge on the word 'household' as to a man's house; but he speaks of the personnel of a household, those who occupy the house or serve in it under God. The wife is first mentioned: "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands" 1 Peter 3:1. No doubt the word "own" is not put in without a reason, so as to preclude any special influence of other husbands.

J.R.H. Have you in mind what the Lord Jesus said to the woman in John 4:18, "he whom now thou hast is not thy husband"?

J.T. Quite so, he was not her own; and that helps greatly as to the subjects that John selects in connection with which the truth is made to stand. Here the household is brought in, involving the wife, lest she should become influenced by other husbands or in any way be diverted. She is to be attached to her own husband and be subject to him.

A.R. You have said in connection with that chapter (John 4) that moral matters must be settled first before you get the Spirit. She said to the Lord, "Give me this water, that I may not thirst nor come here to draw. Jesus says to her, Go, call thy husband, and come here" John 4:15,16.

J.T. Yes, "Go, call thy husband, and come here"; that is to be noticed. The Lord opened the subject with her involving the moral side of it by calling attention to the one whom she then had, who was not her husband.

A.R. Is that what is in mind in this chapter, that moral matters must be settled in the household?

J.T. That is the point at the beginning of the chapter, but the husbands, of course, are also mentioned.

Ques. Would the reference to unconverted husbands apply also to unconverted wives?

J.T. I think whichever they may be, husbands or wives, they are in mind here; but of course these verses might be conveniently and instructively read in connection with the same truth as treated by Paul in the epistle to the Corinthians. He enlarges on the subject more than Peter does.

S.McC. Would you say that, looking at the subject in a general way in regard to the dispensation, the feminine side has been largely lost sight of in the assembly because of other husbands which may have come up in the public setting of things?

J.T. Very good, a very searching remark. Of course another thing that has to be borne in mind is that in the larger part of the human race polygamy has a place; whereas in the realm of Japheth, that is to say in the western part of the world centering in the main in Rome, one man and one wife present the idea of marriage. Polygamy is not allowed in the West generally; but then there is, alas, much that is morally wrong that may be found even amongst the saints. That is the undue influence of husbands over other wives than their own.

Ques. Is it noteworthy that in Luke's gospel before Peter is chosen the Lord had touch with him in his household and in his business?

J.T. Yes; his wife's mother was sick of a fever, which would mean that he was tested in the house, because the fever would tend to irritability. Then he was tested in his business too, and happily the truth is stated that he left all, a very fine statement as to persons in regard to their businesses, that one is ready to leave all, whatever it may be, and follow Jesus.

A.R. Was polygamy in principle working at Corinth? Paul says, "Each of you says I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, and I of Christ" 1 Corinthians 1:12. Men, other than Christ were engaging them at Corinth. Paul says, "I have espoused you unto one man, to present you a chaste virgin to Christ" 2 Corinthians 11:2. He transfers the affection all to Christ in the second epistle.

J.T. He does indeed: they were espoused spiritually, not literally in the ordinary sense; they were espoused spiritually to one Man, that is, to Christ, as a chaste virgin. But I do not just see why you bring in the many. The point was that he had espoused them to one Man and that, of course, would include not only the wives but the husbands too; that is to say the whole of the saints at Corinth were espoused spiritually to one Man, that is to Christ.

Ques. Is this Peter's way of doing what Paul was doing in 1 Corinthians, setting household matters right in view of assembly service?

J.T. I think that is the important point to begin with in this chapter, setting the household matters right; we have so much trouble among the saints because of these matters that are not adjusted.

F.H.L. Would it be right to suggest that this great principle goes back to Genesis 3 where the lack of headship and lordship came to light in Eve? Eve failed in not referring to her husband when the test came.

J.T. She listened to the devil, you mean. Of course that is a very strong ease to bring forward because there were no other husbands at the time. It was a question of the devil; Satan came in to deceive her; "as the serpent deceived Eve", the apostle says in 2 Corinthians 11:3. So that the whole of the saints were included in his remarks, that is to say, both husbands and wives; it was a question of their being espoused to one Man. It is a great point, but it really does not touch what we are dealing with here.

J.H.E. Priscilla and Aquila filled this out perfectly.

J.T. Quite so, they are equally mentioned, showing that they were both right in their relations one to the other.

R.W.S. The economic conditions under which we live sometimes involve husband and wife both working.

J.T. That is a great source of weakness. Of course it is common in the world; many wives take up employment. But it is a great weakness amongst the saints and if the wives do not need to work it really amounts to sin. If you have enough to support your family and you allow your wife to take on employment it amounts to sin, because it is exposing the woman to the devil.

Rem. It leads to all kinds of other things.

Ques. Does not the idea of independence sometimes underlie that position?

J.T. You mean the wife wanting money for herself? Quite so. Normally the husband ought to supply what is needed in the house.

W.W.M. Titus says, "The young women to be attached to their husbands, to be attached to their children, discreet, chaste, diligent in home work, good, subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be evil spoken of" Titus 2:4,5.

J.T. That is a good scripture to bring in at this point, because home work is used. That is not simply the work of a child going to school in learning his lessons, it is the work of the home. The woman's responsibility in looking after the home is in mind, and attachment to her husband and her children.

C.T. Would Abraham and Sarah fit in with this thought? Sarah was inside but Abraham was on the outside.

J.T. Quite so. She has her place and she is mentioned here as an example for us.

A.N.W. Is it not of value to see that the principle operates, or is expected to operate, even when there is poverty in the marital link, even with a disobedient husband or wife?

J.T. The chapter in 1 Corinthians ought to be read with this. It would help us. If we want to take on the subject more fully we should read 1 Corinthians 7, where we are told by the apostle as to what is better; so that we should be guided even by Paul's own experience, his counsel as competent to speak even where he has no command from the Lord, as if God were to give importance to the experience of a brother in these matters. So that in such matters an elder brother ought to be consulted where he is available, because he is intended of God to help by his experience.

A.A.T. If a sister has assembly exercises, should she consult her own husband or some other brother?

J.T. Her own husband first, by all means; but if there be one with greater experience, which Paul intimates as to himself, she should wisely perhaps consult the one who has the experience if he is an elder brother, because age has a great place in the government of the assembly.

Ques. Would she first ask her own husband, and would that be likely to prompt things with him?

J.T. I think the lesson is given really in the general instruction, "Let them ask their own husbands at home" 1 Corinthians 14:35. That is a comely way to ask things.

A..B. Would the woman of worth in Proverbs 31 have the ability for filling this out? "The heart of her husband confideth in her" Proverbs 31:11.

J.T. Quite so, she is an example. Of course she rises to a type of the assembly, but at the same time the passage affords instruction as to ordinary matters too.

J.W.D. If there is piety, will not God control the economic conditions for us?

J.T. Quite so, we can count on God surely; a very important thing, that we should learn to count on God for economic conditions and not to go outside of what is right in principle for the sake of adding to our capital or income. God may see fit to make it difficult for us, because we learn through such experiences to trust God, a very important lesson for every one of us, to learn to trust God.

Rem. In detail.

J.T. Just so. So we have here, "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, that, even if any are disobedient to the word" -- showing that the husband may be disobedient to the word; he might not even be a christian -- "they may be gained without the word" -- a remarkable thing -- "by the conversation of the wives, having witnessed your pure conversation carried out in fear" 1 Peter 3:1,2. Then we are told as to adornment, as to dress. But it is a very striking thing that the influence of the wife may save the husband; he "may be gained without the word", it says, as if the Scriptures are just left out and the wife is to take their place to gain the husband.

A.R. Did not Sarah do that in connection with Ishmael and his mother? God says, "in all that Sarah hath said to thee hearken to her voice" Genesis 21:12.

J.T. Showing that what the wife is saying might rise to the value of Scripture, as we know from Galatians it did in that case. It is called Scripture.

Rem. Generally speaking if the wife is in subjection to her husband according to this passage, the husband would be more likely to listen to her if an occasion of that kind arose.

J.T. That is the point that Peter makes here. It is a matter that a wife should rightly have in her mind, whether she may gain her husband even without the Scriptures, even if he does not read the Scriptures or pray. She may through her quiet conversation gain him, showing that God has in mind that such a marriage is to be turned to account to the gaining of the husband.

C.T. Does Mr. Darby's reference to the word 'conversation' -- that it means 'manner of life' -- have something to do with this thought?

J.T. Quite so, it is the kind of life that characterises such a woman.

Rem. God honouring that means rather than the orthodox means of saving, because the 'word' would normally be used.

J.T. As if God is honouring the marriage relation to that effect.

S.McC. Difficulties amongst us become drawn out and exercises protracted, by the wife, perhaps, supporting the husband in what is wrong.

J.T. It often happens. Peter admits of no mistake in what he is saying to the wives and husbands here. If the wife has been formed by the Scriptures, by the truth, her conversation will be all the more valuable.

Rem. It says here "pure conversation".

J.T. That is a good thought to bring up, because how often it is that wives drop to the level of the world in their conversation! Whereas it is to be pure conversation if it is to be valuable. Peter makes much of the idea of purity, "pure minds", for instance, "Stir up your pure minds".

Ques. Do you think there is need for the recognition of the Spirit of God in all these matters? It is noticeable in Genesis 24 that there is no mention of adornment with Rebecca -- although she is not a wife yet -- until after the camels have done drinking. I was wondering whether the watering of the ten camels would not indicate the recognition of the Spirit of God in every department of human responsibility? And when the camels had done drinking the servant took out the ornaments and put them on her. Would that bear on this question of adornment? These adornments really flow out from an inward state, do they not?

J.T. It would be adornment in the true sense of the word. That passage helps greatly as to the Spirit because Abraham's servant is called the first servant of his house. His name is never given in that chapter. It is Eliezer of course, but it is not given there; he is Abraham's servant, which would point to the Spirit of God. And as many of us have been remarking, Rebecca would, no doubt, converse with the servant, who typifies the Spirit of God.

W.F.W. Then you have in mind that at the present time we are to avail ourselves of the Spirit, that He is to serve us?

J.T. Quite so. The Spirit is available to serve us.

Ques. Why is it that wives are addressed first here?

J.T. Because it is the prominent thought in the apostle's mind, as we can well understand. As already remarked, the epistle to the Corinthians is

parallel, but entering into the subject much more extensively than Peter does. But Peter has his own point of view and we have to take it on because it is a question of the government of God, as we began with yesterday. It is a question of God s government in ordinary life, and how the wife comes into that.

A.M. Is there not something special in the reference that Peter makes to holy women in this section? Is it not a unique expression in Scripture involving dignity, the wives themselves recognizing their true personality spiritually?

J.T. Sarah being the example, and rising to the dignity that is in her conversation, that what she says is quoted as Scripture.

S.McC. Would the allusion to "carried out in fear" in verse 2 bear on the government of God in these circumstances, that there should be a wholesome fear with us? It says, "having witnessed your pure conversation carried out in fear" 1 Peter 3:2.

J.T. That is a wholesome attitude of mind, that they are not independent; it is fear as regards the actions of God in His government, as to what might happen in the government of God; one has a certain wholesome fear as to that. But then we have another allusion to fear in verse 6: "Whose children ye have become, doing good, and not fearing with any kind of consternation" 1 Peter 3:6. That is to say the husband is not to cause any undue fear in the wife; there is to be no consternation.

J.R.H. As to this matter of holy women that has been brought forward, you would encourage a wife to hold tenaciously to the thought of the unbelieving husband being sanctified in the wife?

J.T. I should indeed, and the children too; the children are sanctified. They are relatively holy; the children of a believing parent are holy. But then what you say means that the wife may sanctify the husband, which gives him an advantage.

G.McP. Is there something in the fact that when the wives are addressed Peter speaks in verse 4 of the hidden man of the heart?

J.T. The hidden man of the heart would be Christ. That is to say the wife cherishes that thought; it is not simply a husband, but Christ.

Ques. The thought of "knowledge" in verse 7 is very comprehensive, is it not?

J.T. Yes. It says, "Ye husbands likewise, dwell with them according to knowledge, as with a weaker, even the female, vessel, giving them honour, as also fellow-heirs of the grace of life" 1 Peter 3:7, a beautiful expression; and then, "that your prayers be not hindered", showing how the prayer meeting may be augmented by the prayers of the wife and husband at home.

S.McC. What does "the grace of life" suggest to you?

J.T. I would think that the force of the word "life" should be learned from the meaning of it in Romans, because Paul brings up the idea of life, spiritual life, very much in Romans, and much develops out of what he says. John of course enlarges on life also, but Paul, I think, has in mind to show how life is worked out in connection with the gospel. The great thought of life -- not simply life in the ordinary sense, what men go in for, but the grace of it -- is what is in Christ. It would develop into the idea of eternal life, "the end eternal life", as Romans 6:22 presents it. Life is mentioned here in verse 7 in an instructive sense as to how it works out in the ordinary lives of Christians, as husbands and wives. "The grace of life" belongs to heaven I would say, but it is an element which comes down here to men where they are. It can be seen, it is practical.

Rem. And shared together in this relationship.

J.T. Just so, like Aquila and Priscilla; how they shared it together, and as a matter of fact, brought

Paul into it in their house! What beautiful grace must have been there in the house of Aquila and Priscilla!

A.N.W. The showing of honour is beautiful, the wife owning her husband as head and the husband giving honour to the weaker vessel.

J.T. Very good.

E.A.L. Do we see in all this the natural desire to have control? The wife may be happier to have her own way.

J.T. Quite so; so that Aquila and Priscilla afford a very good model for us as to this matter, even as to the economic side of it, lest the wife should aspire to have an income of her own in some sense in order to get all she wanted for her own benefit. All that would not work out according to the mind of God in this passage.

F.N.W. Would the word "fellow-heirs" give a heavenly touch to the household setting?

J.T. A very beautiful expression, "fellow-heirs of the grace of life"!

F.N.W. Would it be a border of blue coming in in those circumstances?

J.T. Quite so.

R.W.S. Whose prayers are these, the husband's or inclusive of the wife, "that your prayers be not hindered"?

J.T. They would be joint, I would think. The husband would be the one to pray if it is a joint prayer, but then she shares in it.

Ques. Would you have in Luke 1:6 in Zacharias and Elizabeth a fitting example of the grace of life? It says, "And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless".

J.T. Very good, only it does not go far enough. They were doing very well but there was something wanting between them, and the dumbness imposed

on Zacharias was the government of God. That of course comes into it. But referring to this other thought of the prayers of the saints, the husband's and the wife's, what had you in mind?

Rem. I had only in mind how the Spirit of God commends them at the beginning of Luke's gospel. After giving the names of Zacharias and his wife and their genealogy it says, "And they were both just before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless" Luke 1:6.

J.T. Read further briefly to see what comes out.

Rem. "And they had no child, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both advanced in years" Luke 1:7.

J.T. That is to say the government of God was there, yet they were not governed by that; they were not influenced by that. Perhaps we should read a little further.

Rem. "And it came to pass, as he fulfilled his priestly service before God in the order of his course, it fell to him by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to enter into the temple of the Lord to burn incense. And all the multitude of the people were praying without at the hour of incense. And an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing on the right of the altar of incense. And Zacharias was troubled, seeing him, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said to him, Fear not, Zacharias, because thy supplication has been heard, and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John" Luke 1:8 - 13.

J.T. There is a governmental side to that whole passage. He does not have faith about it, that is the point; he has not faith although he is all right externally. And that may happen to any one of us, that things are all right apparently and yet they are not right, and he has to be stricken dumb for nine months on account of that, a most solemn thing.

J.R.H. In spite of the fact that supplications had been going on.

J.T. Quite so, we might have things in order externally and not be really in order.

Rem. It is encouraging to find that the government of God had its effect in the way he named the child. Do you think he was re-established in his faith and in his place as the head of the house?

J.T. "John is his name", he says; there was no question about it. He is not going to be told what to name his child nor is even his wife. "John is his name", Luke 1:63. He learned that after nine months of dumbness, the most solemn thing that could happen to any of us.

Ques. Is the government of God to bring us into accord with the mind of God?

J.T. Quite so, that is just what it is. The government of God is for good to us.

S.McC. What you are saying is important because so often you hear it said in difficulties, 'I have nothing on my conscience'; but Paul says, "For I am conscious of nothing in myself; but I am not justified by this: but he that examines me is the Lord", 1 Corinthians 4:4.

J.T. I had to do with that very thing quite recently. I was pointing out to a brother something about him that was very, very wrong and he said, 'I have a good conscience in what I am doing'. 'Well', I said, 'a good conscience is not enough. You want more than that; you want righteousness'. You cannot always go by the good conscience a person has because it may not be enlightened, or he may not be governed by the truth that is enlightening.

E.A.L. Where there is conflict for the truth in a locality and we are praying for help, do we not have to be conscious that the Lord can help, and not be

like Zacharias who doubted? There is nothing that cannot be repaired and set right by God.

Ques. Would it be right for a wife to pray audibly in her house with her husband?

J.T. So far as I am concerned we have never done it, but I am not saying that that is just right. "I will therefore that the men pray in every place", it says, "lifting up pious hands, without wrath or reasoning" 1 Timothy 2:8, but I think the wife might pray, if she feels equal to it.

W.W.M. Do you think it is inferred here that where these happy relationships exist between the husband and the wife there will be the sense as they kneel down together that their prayers are heard? It is a great thing to have the sense of acceptance with God, and in anything that may come between us in our families or otherwise there should be short accounts kept so that we may not be hindered in prayer.

J.T. So that if the husband prays in the family setting what comes up to God is more likely to be acceptable to God, because he is more intelligent in what he is saying.

Ques. And if he is dwelling with his wife according to knowledge, he will cover all that is required to be covered. I have heard it said that a wife prays audibly because she fills in the things her husband has riot thought of, but if he is filling his part as head that would hardly be the case, would it?

J.T. That is the way I would look at it, though I would not be dogmatic as to the wife praying. But now to go on with our chapter; there is something that perhaps ought to be dealt with in verses 8 - 12. There is the word, "Finally, be all of one mind, sympathising, full of brotherly love, tender hearted, humble minded; not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing; but on the contrary, blessing others, because ye have been called to this,

that ye should inherit blessing. For he that will love life and see good days, let him cause his tongue to cease from evil and his lips that they speak no guile. And let him avoid evil, and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it; because the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and his ears towards their supplications" 1 Peter 3:8,9. Now this is something the young people ought to pay attention to, as if God were saying, It is quite right to wish to live if you are a young person and have aspirations, but this is the way to get to it -- showing according to Peter's way that you get certain things by other certain things. This is something to encourage young people. If you want to live and to have a wife and family and all that, well, God says, that is quite in order, but then there is a way to it to please Me; and that is as applying yourself, not to getting money, but to living according to these traits mentioned here; and then life and good days will come, which is very encouraging, especially to young people.

Ques. That is a continuation of the thought of government is it not?

J.T. Exactly, it is a question of government, as to how such a condition as described will work out for good, that is, for good days.

J.T.Jr. This is a quotation from Psalm 34 where David changed his behaviour, and where he had to change his position because Abimelech drove him out, a governmental action.

J.T. Very good. Now the other passage that should not be passed over is in 1 Peter 3:15, "Sanctify the Lord the Christ in your hearts, and be always prepared to give an answer to every one that asks you to give an account of the hope that is in you, but with meekness and fear; having a good conscience, that as to that in which they speak against you as evildoers, they may be ashamed who calumniate your good conversation in Christ". Now that

is a remarkable thing, how the testimony is carried on on these lines. Then it goes on, "For it is better, if the will of God should will it, to suffer as well-doers than as evildoers; for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God; being put to death in flesh but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison, heretofore disobedient, when the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water". 1 Peter 3:17 - 20. Now I thought that should come before the brethren, this matter of what happened in the days of Noah.

A.R. Would you explain verse 19, "in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison"?

J.T. Read the preceding passage again, "Christ indeed has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God" 1 Peter 3:18. That is why He suffered. Then it says, "being put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison". 1 Peter 3:18,19. That is to say, they are in prison now, not at that time; they were at liberty then and the Lord preached to them. But the preaching was not by Himself personally going there, but by Noah. Noah was the vessel of the preaching. I would submit that to the brethren for each to see for himself what is meant.

A.R. That helps; it is a question of who is doing the preaching. It is Noah.

W.F.W. Would you say that the Spirit of Christ was in Noah?

J.T. That is right.

Rem. Does it not mean also that in any preaching the Spirit of Christ is to be operative in the vessel at the time? And does this bear on the present moment in view of the imminent judgment? I was thinking of what is coming on the world, that whilst

there is longsuffering from God, yet as refusing the testimony of grace the situation will parallel that in the days of Noah when the door was shut and the floods came and drowned them all. Would it not introduce a sense of urgency into the preachings at the present time?

J.T. I think that is very good, because 2 Thessalonians contemplates that the hand of the Lord, or certain means under His hand, is holding hack the evil. The apostle's word is that the day of the Lord will not come until there come an apostasy. The Thessalonians were misled by the thought that the day of the Lord was there, but it was not. Paul is saying that there must be an apostasy first before the day of the Lord comes; but then, when may that not be? How sudden it may be, and how solemn it is that it is sudden and how we should be on the alert to preach the gospel whenever we can, "in season and out of season"! That is, keep on preaching the word of God. God is keeping the door open, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9. At the same time things are fixed in the mind of God and the apostasy will come, a very terrible thing. But God is holding it back through certain means: "only there is he who restrains now until he be gone, and then the lawless one shall be revealed" 2 Thessalonians 2:7,8. So it is urgent to be on the alert to preach the word of God whenever we can so that men, if possible, should be saved.

Ques. Is that why Paul says. "I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory"? 2 Timothy 2:10.

J.T. Such a salvation as that; that the elect may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Think of the glory; think of the wonderfulness of that on God's part!

Rem. The only alternative being what Thessalonians mentions, a day of vengeance on those that know not God and have not obeyed the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

G.A.S. Does the reason of the hope that is within us go along with the preaching of the gospel?

J.T. Quite so. That is just what we get here. We ought to be ready to give an answer to anybody that asks for it, not to push it on them exactly, but to do it in a seemly way; but if a man asks for it, it becomes all the more simple. Give an account of the hope that is in you, the apostle says.

Ques. The apostle Paul could say that woe should betide him if he did not preach the gospel. Do you think that we should, in some sense, feel something like that? Is there a responsibility on us?

J.T. There is indeed.

S.McC. Have you anything in mind in connection with the Spirit in relation to this mediatorial service alluded to here? The end of verse 18 says, "but made alive in the Spirit", and the word "Spirit" is capitalised: "in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison" 1 Peter 3:19.

J.T. That would mean the Spirit of God, would it not? "Made alive in the Spirit"; very remarkable that that should be said even of Christ.

S.McC. Does it suggest the kind of backward, retroactive flow in connection with the incarnation, our Lord's coming into manhood?

J.T. I have often thought of the word 'retroactive', what the Lord did in that sense, but in truth He did it because of His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. That is to say, the Spirit of Christ was in Noah.

J.R.H. Is this a reference to His resurrection, "made alive in the Spirit"?

J.T. I think it would be, because the resurrection is spoken of throughout this part as a main thought, a main accomplishment on the part of God.

J.R.H. Is that continued in verse 6 of the following chapter in the saints? "For to this end were the glad tidings preached to the dead also, that they might be judged, as regards men, after the flesh, but live, as regards God, after the Spirit" 1 Peter 4:6.

J.T. It is a similar thought carried through into chapter 4. That is why the glad tidings were preached in those early days, showing how God in those early days was thinking of men.

F.S.C. Would one say that the water that destroyed the world saved eight souls?

J.T. Quite so, the water was a means of salvation, a remarkable thing.

Ques. Is it not encouraging that in the introduction of baptism the Lord's place on high is brought in and the power that belongs to it?

J.T. It is remarkable that the whole matter of redemption is mentioned there. In verse 20 the water is brought in: "When the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing, into which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water" 1 Peter 3:20; that is, it is an instrumentality; and then it goes on to say, "which figure also now saves you, even baptism, not a putting away of the filth of flesh, but the demand as before God of a good conscience" 1 Peter 3:21. Baptism according to Colossians involves that a person comes out of the water; it contains a figure at least of the person coming out of the water; not simply being immersed, but that he comes out.

Rem. Here it is spoken of in relation to the resurrection of Jesus Christ and also to His place of power on high.

J.T. That is glorious I would say -- how the apostle Peter is led to run on to all this, "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him" 1 Peter 3:21,22. It is glorious!

And all brought in in connection with the eight souls saved through water.

Ques. Would it be right to say that persons who answer to what baptism sets forth are found in the ark?

J.T. Well, found in the assembly; that is what is meant.

J.W.D. Why do you think it tells us there were eight souls, and calls them "few"?

J.T. Why should it not be so? It is the truth. It is a very small matter outwardly, but it is a great matter on the part of God that there should be some saved at that time. We look back at it now as a glory.

J.W.D. Very few, were they not, compared to our dispensation?

J.T. Well, it would encourage us to keep on preaching, preaching even to disobedient people; "while the ark was preparing", the power of the very thing that God prepared to save the eight. While that was preparing there was a means of salvation.

Ques. Noah preached for one hundred and twenty years, although, so far as we know, he had not one convert. Is that not an example to us to keep on?

J.T. Keep on preaching! That is just what I would say. Preach the gospel, preach the word, as it says. Get the thing done; that with which the real power is is the word of God. "The word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart" Hebrews 4:12. Wonderful! So let us preach the word, let us give them the right thing.

J.S. Are these eight souls saved through God's governmental dealings?

J.T. We would attribute it to God anyway, but it was in the days of Noah. He prepared an ark for the saving of his house, we are told -- another thing that should come into our thought at this time: "for the saving of his house" -- so that we are to have nothing about us that would tend to do anything but save our houses.

Rem. And Hebrews 11:7 tells us that in doing so he "condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith", which is the positive side.

A.B. There is great expansion of subjection in this chapter. It begins in verse 1 with the wife, which would be individual, but it ends with "angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him" 1 Peter 3:22.

J.T. How real the means of salvation is, and how extensive, how far reaching! Hence the opportunity afforded to us of continuing on with the preaching right to the end. But let it be remembered that it is the word that has to be preached. Of course the gospel too, but the word, the word of God, as we have quoted from Hebrews.

F.W. Is baptism referred to here as in regard to the governmental dealings of God?

J.T. Well, it would look so, But baptism is brought in as a real saving element; not baptism in the mere sense of a person being a christian nominally and not a Jew; it is a saving thing. That is what is in mind.

Ques. Would not the place of Christ on high, "angels and authorities and powers being subjected to him" 1 Peter 3:22, be very encouraging to any who would accept the truth of baptism and part company with the world and its affairs?

J.T. That is what is meant, it is parting company with the world. God is not supporting us in keeping company with the world even although we may accept baptism. Baptism is a saving element from God.

PETER'S FIRST EPISTLE AS BEARING ON THE PRESENT MOMENT (4)

1 Peter 4:1 - 19

J.T. The mind is particularly stressed in the beginning of this chapter, and it may be helpful to call attention to that faculty especially, because of its place in the service of God! It enters much into the Lord's supper. The saints often consider that the heart is the leading thought, but it would seem as if the mind is divinely given to have control, especially as it is said that we, that is christians, have the mind of Christ, meaning the thinking faculty of Christ, so that growth in the knowledge of Christ should be before us especially as to our minds. We have already had reference to the "pure mental milk of the word" 1 Peter 2:2, showing that the idea of the mind is to have a great place with us in the service of God, that our minds should grow as partaking of the pure mental milk of the word.

J.S. Is it seen here as an arm of defence, "Arm yourselves with the same mind"? 1 Peter 4:1.

J.T. It is. The word "arm" would allude to military activity, and if we are to use the mind in that sense it is to be controlled. We are to be controlled, so that our minds may be tempered with grace. The law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ -- grace and truth.

A.R. Is that seen in the end of Romans 7 where it says, "I myself with the mind serve God's law"?

J.T. I have often thought of that, "I myself". Particular stress is laid on the word 'self' -- oneself.

J.R.H.Sr. Is this military allusion something like the exhortation to Timothy to take his share in suffering as a good soldier of Jesus Christ?

J.T. Just so; that allusion is very apt I would say. A young man is to take his share in suffering as a good soldier.

A.A.T. Do you distinguish between oneself and one's mind in that we are to control the mind?

J.T. Well, it is the faculty by which we control the whole body.

Rem. Mr. Darby renders "myself" emphatically in the end of Romans 7.

W.F.W. How would Philippians 2:5 fit in, "For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus"?

J.T. It fits in because it refers to Christ who had been in the form of God but had taken the form of man, and further what characterised Him as Man.

Ques. One of the fruits of the Spirit is self-control. Does that involve a control of the mind?

J.T. I would think so. Self-control: the reference would be to the person himself, to his own consciousness.

C.C.T. "Have your mind on the things that are above" Colossians 3:2, does that come into this matter?

J.T. Quite so. That is a peculiar reference in Colossians, that epistle being a link between Romans and Ephesians.

Ques. Involving state?

J.T. I would say that.

J.R.H. Is this kind of suffering through the refusal of the flesh, rather than for the testimony?

J.T. Well, the passage would tell us: "Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh" 1 Peter 4:1 -- the article is not in the original here; we have already noted the absence of the article, it is a question of language and the use of language, so that the stress is on "flesh", the condition of the Lord as having become flesh. It is said, "The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us" John 1:14, showing there was a change: this may be seen in the Lord Jesus and the other divine Persons; it is emphasising the idea of change.

J.R.H. It goes on to say, "For he that has suffered in the flesh has done with sin" 1 Peter 4:1.

J.T. The "he" there is impersonal or abstract I would say, but the full bearing of it refers to Christ. The thing was fully set out in Him. But we want to get this matter of the mind. The chapter begins: "Christ, then, having suffered for us in the flesh" -- as it might read literally -- "do ye" -- ye is emphatic -- "also arm yourselves with the same mind"; that is the mind of Christ, only in this sense, that He refused all thought of sin, absolutely refused it. But then the teaching leads on to ourselves, so it says. "for he that has suffered in flesh has done with sin", -- that is to say the matter is settled, we have done with it -- "no longer to live the rest of his time in the flesh" -- the article again omitted -- "to men's lusts, but to God's will" 1 Peter 4:1,2. So that the teaching leads on to ourselves.

J.T.Jr. Does the suffering allude to the cross?

J.T. I would think so. The reference, of course, is to 1 Peter 3:17, 18: "For it is better, if the will of God should will it, to suffer as well-doers than as evildoers; for Christ indeed has once suffered for sins". So the reference is to the cross, and the thought is carried on into the fourth chapter in the sense of armour, that we should arm ourselves with the same mind.

Rem. Psalm 78 would show that there is the possibility of avoiding the issue; the sons of Ephraim, armed bowmen, turned back in the day of battle. They really did not maintain this outlook. But the Spirit of God being here, we would have every equipment for the conflict. It is a question of being maintained in our minds in relation to the cross.

J.T. Therefore we should be taught as to that. David refers to it in Psalm 144:1, "Jehovah … teacheth my hands to war, my fingers to fight". The fingers would show that it is a matter of detail.

Ques. Would it suggest that resistance to sin involves suffering, especially in the attitude of mind?

J.T. It is bound to, I would say, because the flesh itself is militant; it becomes militant in a believer unless it is thoroughly under control, that is to say, that the man is under control himself.

A.R. It says that the flesh lusts against the Spirit, that is what is going on inside.

B.H. It says that "he that ruleth his spirit" is better "than he that taketh a city" Proverbs 16:32. Does that enter into this?

J.T. It does indeed, showing how our own spirits can be restless and useless, or worse than useless; and therefore if a man controls his own spirit he is greater that he that takes a city.

W.L. In that way would you say this arming is against oneself?

J.T. That is the way it reads, "no longer to live the rest of his time in the flesh to men's lusts, but to God's will" 1 Peter 4:2. So that it would be a question of arming oneself against oneself, so that one is entirely subject to the will of God, as Christ was; as He said, "Lo, I come … to do, O God, thy will" Hebrews 10:7.

Ques. Is the mind then made to dominate the flesh?

J.T. Well, just so; only it takes on a more spiritual character than simply the activity of the mind by itself, because the Spirit of God must have His place if there be conflict.

J.R.H. It helps much to see that Peter's reference to the flesh here is not in any bad sense but rather the human condition in which Christ was.

J.T. Quite so. It is Christ's condition as Man down here.

Rem. I think your remark that the flesh is always militant is something we should take careful notice

of. It implies that there is never a moment when the flesh is quiescent unless we are actively in control of the situation.

J.T. That is why Romans enters so much into all Scripture as basic and instructive as to every side of the truth that we are dealing with.

J.H.E. Paul says, "I die daily" 1 Corinthians 15:31.

Rem. So that Romans 8:6 says, "The mind of the flesh is death"; it is predominantly that.

J.T. Just so.

W.L. In that regard will you make a distinction between "in flesh" and "after the flesh"?

J.T. 1 Peter 4:6 says, "For to this end were the glad tidings preached to the dead also" -- that is, those that are dead now; they were not dead then, and the gospel was preached to them -- "that they might be judged, as regards men, after the flesh, but live, as regards God, after the Spirit". That is to say, the idea of "after the flesh" is a characteristic position as to those to whom the preaching was in the early days alluded to, in chapter 3 as well as in chapter 4. So that subsequent to the preaching the question would be whether the 'living' afterwards would be as regards men or as regards God.

E.A.L. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4:3, "But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them".

J.T. They are lost, which is a characteristic word, an awful word; a class of persons that are absolutely lost. The gospel is veiled to them. It is a judicial position.

J.W.D. In Romans 12 after the body is presented as a living sacrifice it speaks of the mind being renewed. Is that something specific and special? The renewal comes at the beginning and remains.

J.T. "Transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God" Romans 12:2. That is clearly the christian's mind.

G.McP. Would not the reference to the healed demoniac help us? He was clothed and in his right mind.

J.T. Quite so, in his right mind. We have a similar allusion in Timothy, "a spirit … of wise discretion" 2 Timothy 17. The note says, 'A quiet, sound or sober mind'; a very good word for young men especially.

R.W.S. The sins enumerated in verse 3 represent gross sins, do they not?

J.T. I think they do. I think the remark has been made that if Paul is dealing with the truth he goes to the root of things, whereas Peter goes to the fruit, the effects of it; and that is the idea here.

A.N.W. Is that why Philippians 2 goes deeper and higher than what we get here, in connection with the mind of Christ and His mighty stoop from the position of Deity?

J.T. It does indeed; we do not get anything exceeding Philippians 2 in that sense. It is a question of Christ as Man and what characterised Him, the mind that characterised Him. It was "also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God … humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross" Philippians 2:6,8.

G.V.D. Would you say that Joseph had a sound mind in that he refused the advances of Potiphar's wife? He said, "How should I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?" Genesis 39:9.

J.T. A very good reference and it is particularly for young men and young women, though it is from Genesis, and Genesis is a book of old men more. But this allusion to Joseph is to him as a young man, and the characteristic qualities of young men are

depicted in Joseph. So he says, How can I do it? He was well armed against the blandishments of Potiphar's wife.

But now we should consider the full bearing of Peter's remarks, because I think this epistle is of great importance at the present time. So he goes on to say, "For the time past is sufficient for us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles" -- so that it is not simply a matter of Jews, but Jews among gentiles that are "walking in lasciviousness, lusts, wine-drinking, revels, drinkings, and unhallowed idolatries. Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same sink of corruption, speaking injuriously of you; who shall render account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead" 1 Peter 4:3 - 5. That is the Lord Jesus. He is ready to judge but He is slow to do it, being with God about it as desiring that all should be saved. The principle is that there should be salvation unto all -- it is available to all; and therefore God is slow to anger, slow to wrath.

Rem. And yet the psalm says, "Thou art to be feared, and who can stand before thee when once thou art angry?" Psalm 76:7. As though God is slow to it but will come to it eventually. I wondered if it would bear on your thought of government yesterday?

J.T. It is wonderful to think of God as He is moving outside this building now, as it were, moving in His governmental way, not to destroy men but to hold them back from evil. He that now hinders will hinder, until He be taken out of the way. It is wonderful, I think, to think of God in that activity while we are here today.

J.T.Jr. Does that thought enter into the local assembly? The local assembly is to be ready to judge, is it not, as things come up?

J.T. Just so, and that is the great protection that we have, that the assembly has power to deal with

sin -- it has authority. It is a very great matter and therefore our care meetings are of great value too. We have not got elders exactly but we have care. The word 'care' is most expressive because it means that we care for the things of God; and we have to use judgment, sometimes even to the point of withdrawal. We used to speak of 'putting away', but now it is 'withdrawal', which is more accurate.

A.R. Is that why it says that judgment begins from the house of God?

J.T. The allusion would be to Ezekiel 9. Judgment is to begin from the house of God, as we get here in verse 17; but it is linked up with Ezekiel 9 where the man with the inkhorn is present to record everything accurately.

Ques. The change of term from 'putting away', as used years ago, to the more correct word of 'withdrawing' does not in any sense involve the diminution of the power to deal with sin?

J.T. No, indeed. It would never do for a moment to give up the thought of dealing with sin, because God has given us the power to do it -- the authority to do it too.

A.N.W. In saying that you would act on the line of withdrawal you would still have 1 Corinthians 5 in mind, would you not, where the expression used is, "put away"?

J.T. That stands as Scripture. It is only a question of the word that is used and God helped us maybe twenty years or more ago on that very point, The question was raised in opposition to the truth and the answer was that both terms were true, both 'putting away' and 'withdrawing'; they both had the same force.

Ques. Does not the one relate to what is done as before God and the other to the public position we need to take in view of the breakdown?

J.T. Quite so. We are not obliged to walk with evil people for we can withdraw; we cannot put away, but we can withdraw.

Rem. But in any case, sin is repudiated as before God.

J.T. And so the apostle in that passage, 1 Corinthians 5, finally ends up with, "Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves". Remove him.

O.W. Would you say something about 1 Timothy 4:1? "But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith, giving their mind to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons speaking lies in hypocrisy".

J.T. Well, it says, "in latter times"; we have to decide as to the time we are speaking in. We are speaking now in 1948, and we are to know the things that have happened that bear on the truth. One is not free to refer in public to certain religious associations because we do not want to draw out opposition unnecessarily. I say unnecessarily; but there is a system to which that scripture especially applies. It says, "Some shall apostatise from the faith". Then what are the forbiddings?

O.W. "Forbidding to marry, bidding to abstain from meats, which God has created for receiving with thanksgiving for them who are faithful and know the truth" 1 Timothy 4:3.

J.T. Quite so, and that all refers to a certain system. While it is not necessary to refer to systems by name, because it might incur opposition unnecessarily, at the same time we might as well have the truth privately, and carry it out too.

S.McC. Is it not important in regard to what you are saying that in preaching the word of God we abstain as much as possible from naming these systems?

J.T. It is just as well to avoid it. There is no need to incur opposition unless there is a point in

it of gaining the truth, if that is what is in your mind. That system I referred to is not so flagrant now as it used to be, and moreover there is that which is called trade unionism, which is worse, really; that is, it is dominating men's minds, more than it used to. I am not afraid to mention that name. But verse 4 of our chapter says, "Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same sink of corruption" 1 Peter 4:4. Notice the word is "run", showing that the system in mind used to be more flagrant than it is now, it is more quiescent now and we are thankful for it. Other things have come into prominence, but that has receded. It is there, however, and the book of Revelation would tell us plainly what God thinks about it. Revelation 18 especially tells us what God thinks about it, and the word "Hallelujah" is used in connection with its destruction.

Rem. In that sense the enemy can change his troops and the form of attack to what he thinks will give the best result for his end.

J.T. Quite so. And we know how skilful men are with the use of words and phrases: "well-turned words", indeed, Peter says.

A.N.W. Is that why the apostle Paul uses the word "that" in connection with what restrains as well as 'he' that restrains? He leaves it undefined, but we are close to what it means.

J.T. "That which restrains" refers to government, I would think, and we thank God for government and pray about it every Monday night. Then there is "he who restrains" which would obviously be the blessed Holy Spirit.

E.A.L. Speaking of governments, the government of this country has now ruled that communists are an illegal company, and any who claim to belong to them are reported and jailed if they go on with this link.

J.T. A very remarkable thing, and we give thanks for it, too, that God is restraining things. In all this Peter enlarges on the wisdom that we need as christians. He says, "Be sober therefore, and be watchful unto prayers" 1 Peter 4:7.

A.M. In that connection will you say why Peter speaks of covering sins; that "love covers a multitude of sins" 1 Peter 4:8, when he has said so much on the line of exposing the true character of sin?

J.T. I think it is to bring out what christianity is in every day life, so to speak, that we are not on the line of exposing unnecessarily. If we have to expose sin it must be taken up authoritatively in the assembly; if we have to deal with it, we do deal with it. At the same time there is the daily walk of the christian and his daily conversation, and in that he is gracious and forgiving and would cover sins rather than expose them.

J.H.E. "Tell it not in Gath" 2 Samuel 1:20, that is what Peter had in mind.

J.T. Quite so, do not expose anything that is adverse to David, and to this system with which we are connected -- the spiritual system. It is wise not to expose it unnecessarily, though if need be it must of course be done.

Rem. "Lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice" 2 Samuel 1:20: he gives a reason for his statement.

A.N.W. What has Peter in mind when he says, "Before all things having fervent love among yourselves"? 1 Peter 4:8. Does that mean above all things, or in what sense is it "before"?

J.T. Well, 1 Peter 4:7 says, "But the end of all things is drawn nigh: be sober therefore, and be watchful unto prayers; but before all things having fervent love among yourselves". I would say that fervent love has first place that is what is meant. Let fervent love have first place. Hence in John's gospel

it says, "By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves" John 13:35.

Ques. Does 1 Corinthians 16:13 bear on it also? "Be vigilant; stand fast in the faith; quit yourselves like men; be strong. Let all things ye do be done in love" -

J.T. Quite so, There are such things as first things. We often use that expression, Let first things be first. Let love be first always.

R.W.S. Does this epistle, with the second epistle, cover the period which the Lord speaks of in Matthew as the beginning of throes?

J.T. I would think so. That in Matthew is called Jacob's trouble, but Peter would have that in mind too. The most fearful of times is ahead of us and it is very near us too, very near. Of course, we often say in a mere formal way, that the Lord's coming is very near; but how do we know? If we say it is very near, surely there should be some evidence of it. That terrible time that is before us covering three and a half years is the time of Jacob's trouble. That is the term used. Well, what precedes that is the Lord's coming, and the Lord therefore promises us that He will keep us out of the great tribulation. He will keep us out of it; not take us out of it, but keep us out of it.

R.W.S. I am impressed with the timeliness of what you are bringing before us because of the difficult times that we are in now about which Peter is addressing us.

J.T. They are difficult times -- that is just what they are. Only the saints are still here and that makes all the difference in the mind of God. But as soon as they leave, then the awfulness comes in -- the apostasy comes in. And so the word is that there cannot be the presence of the Lord here unless there be the apostasy first; that has to come first.

J.W.D. Fifty years ago the brethren thought the Lord's coming was imminent. What has transpired since then to make it that, as you say, the time is very near?

J.T. I am quoting somebody else. But you would like me to say what the things are that have made a difference between the present time and fifty years ago? I can speak of both times very conveniently, and I would say that the word of God and the use of the Scriptures in a public sense have made a great difference. I thank God that the Scriptures are acquiring more place in the public mind than they have had. I do not know if the brethren have noticed it, but I have noticed it, and I thank God for it even though it be only short-lived.

A.R. So you do not expect the apostasy to come so long as we are here?

J.T. Not fully; that is what the apostle says, that the day of the Lord will not come except the apostasy comes first, and that of course will be when the hand of restraint is removed, as it is said, "There is he who restrains now until he be gone" 2 Thessalonians 2:7. And then shall come the man of sin.

W.W. Are we in the spirit of the thing now?

J.T. I think that is right. The thing has been developing for maybe two or three hundred years, I would say, since the reformation was established in the world. Then man's will began to work and it has gone on ever since. We have had great evangelical movements in the 17th and 18th centuries; but the real movement from which we date, the revival of the truth of the assembly, has come within the last hundred and fifty years and is going on yet. And the Spirit is not going to leave while the assembly remains; it is Christ's chief interest on earth.

E.A.L. Would you say that anyone who says he has a judgment about the assembly and that he is going to withdraw is apostate in character?

J.T. Quite so. You are moving on towards the apostasy when you say that.

W.W.M. The scripture says, "Be sober therefore and he watchful unto prayers" 1 Peter 4:7. Would that help us to be preserved?

J.T. What a word that is, "watchful unto prayers"! Mark 13 stresses how we are to be watchful, and it is a word for us this very minute.

Rem. The distinction you made as to the promise to Philadelphia is helpful, "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial" Revelation 3:10 -- not 'take' you out; because it is taught in a very large section of christendom that the saints will go through the great tribulation and it is at the present moment causing a great deal of perturbation in the minds of many; so that the distinction you made should, I think, have very far-reaching effects.

J.T. Quite so. The Lord means that we are to be kept out of it; not taken out of it, but kept out of it, and the Lord is doing it by maintaining the truth of the assembly. The government of the assembly keeps us: we are held by that if our consciences are right.

S.McC. In view of what we have been saying, the exhortation that "if any one speak -- as oracles of God" 1 Peter 4:11 is very important, so that there may be what is authoritative amongst us.

J.T. Very good. Then it says in 1 Peter 4:9, "hospitable one to another". That is a good word and it is evidently having much place now in this town considering the number of brethren that are being entertained in the houses here, which God honours. "Hospitable one to another, without murmuring; each according as he has received a gift, ministering it to one another, as good stewards of the various grace of God" 1 Peter 4:9,10. We are dealing with the most practical things in these verses and they apply here in Rochester where the brethren are entertaining so

many of their brethren from different parts. It is a pleasure to be in these houses -- in them according to God, in a sober, instructive way with each other; not as young people are often found in company with one another in lightness; God abhors that. He wants us to be in sobriety. Thus in 1 Peter 4:10, the gift anyone may have: that is, means; let him distribute it -- "ministering it to one another, as good stewards". Notice that it is not merely doing good service or being kind or hospitable, but we are to be "good stewards of the various grace of God". It is a question of stewardship, as to what God has given us in His governmental ways.

Ques. Is that why it says "various grace", that it covers a wide field?

J.T. Quite so. And then it goes on to say, "If anyone minister -- as of strength which God supplies; that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 4:11. And then we have this wonderful doxology, a matter which is somewhat rare in Peter though it is very common, as I might say, and blessed too, in Paul. But here it is: "to whom is the glory and the might for the ages of ages. Amen" 1 Peter 4:11. This is a word from Peter that touches the heart in the midst of all this instruction, it is what is due to God, as we get also in Romans 11.

W.W. Is it the spirit of worship here?

J.T. It is, God getting something in the midst of the instruction.

P.C. Was Peter fulfilling the commandment of the Lord: "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren"? Luke 22:32.

J.T. Are you speaking of John 21? That is Peter's commission. I mean to say that he is commissioned to feed the lambs and to shepherd the sheep. And then we end with this doxology which I think we should take into our minds, to note how

the apostles were given to rendering tribute to God in the midst of much instruction for the saints.

Ques. Does that show the ultimate end of all ministry, something rendered as a result to God Himself from whom it came?

J.T. I think so. The ministry should be strewn with references to God and what is for God. If that is so now, what will it be in eternity?

S.McC. In this doxology, "to whom is the glory and the might for the ages of ages" 1 Peter 4:11, is that the full thought as to God, or is it God presented as Father?

J.T. I think it is the full thought in the sense of Ephesians 3:21, "to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus". It is a thought similar to that, showing how Paul and Peter link on together in rendering tribute to God.

Ques. What is the distinction between 'speaking' and 'ministering' as it is referred to in 1 Peter 4:11? "Speak -- as oracles of God"; and "minister -- as of strength which God supplies".

J.T. "If anyone speak -- as oracles of God"; it would be a question, I would think, of ministry as we call it, what might be said in assembly on the first day of the week. We speak of giving a word. It is the speaking, and the speaking garnishes what is said. "Who gave man a mouth?" Exodus 4:11. Jehovah says that Himself. The mouth of a christian is of peculiar value when it is active in regard of God, or when it is active in giving instruction to the saints. "If any one speak -- as oracles of God" 1 Peter 4:11, what God would say in the oracle. In 1 Corinthians 3:16 it says, "Do ye not know that ye are the temple of God?" That is the idea, God speaking in the temple. Then Phoebe is mentioned peculiarly by Paul as a minister of the assembly, but not in the sense of speaking, but of giving according to what she had. She was generous.

R.W.S. In making man's mouth and in all His creative skill, had not God in mind what was to be for Himself in the way of praise?

J.T. I would think so. When God made Adam He evidently was governed by holy discrimination in using the word "us": "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion" Genesis 1:26. All that is said of Adam and Eve afterwards would indicate what God had found in man, whether the man or the woman. The word 'man' covers both.

J.R.H. I suppose this ministering would not be quite the same as in Acts 13 where it says they were ministering to the Lord in Antioch and fasting?

J.T. This is not quite that; that would be actually God's service. And then the Spirit of God has room to act. He says, "Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them" Acts 13:2.

A.M. The idea of strength brought in here, "If any one minister -- as of strength which God supplies" 1 Peter 4:11 -- is a great levitical idea, is it not? The idea of labour connected with the work of the Lord is mentioned in the book of Numbers.

J.T. The word governing the Levites is a strenuous word, is that what you mean? So the ministering here is "that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 4:11. It is a question of what God is going to get out of all this.

R.B.P. Will you say a little more as to ruling the mind in the service of God to which you referred at the outset? We have before us from time to time the question of affection but now we are thinking of the mind and its control in relation to the service of God.

J.T. I think it is a question of God and what is becoming in God's house -- in God's assembly. "I speak as to intelligent persons", the apostle says,

"do ye judge what I say" 1 Corinthians 10:15. So it is a question of what adorns the whole position. It is a question of what God would say and of what would come from the saints in the way of speaking, the mind being active, so that the things that are said are right and comely and adorning. I think God attaches much to the use of words and to adornment. For instance it says, "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens" Job 26:13. That would suggest what God might say by the Spirit, through some brother, that would adorn the position.

S.McC. How wonderful it must have been to God to hear framed in Man's mouth, "This shall be called Woman"! Genesis 2:23 'Ishshah', a word denoting what was there.

J.T. Very good. The word 'Ishshah' stands in contrast to the names of the lower creatures: "This time", Adam said, "… this shall he called Woman" Genesis 2:23, showing what he is, what God had made him, the wisdom that He had given to him. So he says, "this shall be called Woman, because this was taken out of a man" Genesis 2:23 It is to bring out the great creature that God had made for His own pleasure.

Rem. Aaron was successful, was he not, when he spoke to the people in Exodus 16, and they turned toward the wilderness? They saw the glory of Jehovah. I thought it fitted in with this passage that there was glory to God by Jesus Christ. Something was accomplished.

J.T. They turned to the wilderness -- that is where God dwells -- and they saw the glory. That is wonderful I think. It is not in a garnished place, or in a house, but in the wilderness; they turned that way.

Ques. Does that mean that their backs were on the world?

J.T. Just so.

S.J.H. With reference to the ages, the plural is used here in the ascription of glory to God for the ages of ages.

J.T. I think the word 'ages' is just a suggestion of indefinite time. In Ephesians 3:21 where it is glory to God "in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages", there is one age spoken of, which is the greatest thought of eternity that you could get, I understand. It is in connection with the assembly in Christ Jesus.

Rem. Whilst Paul makes it specific, as you would expect him to, Peter here gives you an impression of extensiveness -- "ages of ages" -- as though there is a vast expanse running on endlessly.

J.T. If scientific men were talking to you they would pile on the words to express the duration of time; your mind gets lost in what they are saying, whereas the Spirit of God keeps the thing within bounds so that we can understand it. That is the beauty, I think, of Ephesians 3; it is so full and yet so beautiful in the language of the Spirit of God.

G.Mc.P. Do we understand that beholding the glory of the Lord and being changed into the same image is what is formed in the assembly through Paul's ministry?

J.T. That is Paul's ministry; he is used of God especially in those two Corinthian epistles. In the scripture referred to the Spirit of God is called Lord: "The Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" 2 Corinthians 3:17.

J.R.H. Where it speaks of the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God resting upon the saints, does the parenthesis following refer to the Spirit, or to Christ, where it says, "on their part he is blasphemed, but on your part he is glorified"? 1 Peter 4:14.

J.T. It is a question of grammar. It would be the Spirit of God, I would say.

A.R. Was not this transformation seen in Stephen? He saw the glory of God and his face shone as that of an angel.

J.T. Quite so. What a beautiful picture it is of a saint in suffering; the first great martyr of christianity!

J.R.H.Sr, Would you say something as to the blessing of those who suffer for the name of Christ, over against the reproach? There is great blessing in having the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God resting upon them.

J.T. It is a beautiful reference, a saint having this upon him; not in him, but upon him.

F.N.W. Although the Holy Spirit is not said to descend at Pentecost like a dove as He did upon Jesus, is this not a close link with that thought, that "the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God rests upon you"? 1 Peter 4:14. In the Spirit coming down as a dove upon the Lord Jesus there was restfulness. Is this a link with that in some sense?

J.T. I think that is very good, that the Spirit is restful. "Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit", John 1:33. It suggests here the restfulness, I believe, that the Spirit of God had in coming down on Jesus.

Ques. May I refer to Ezekiel as bearing on the present time? For the mark of the beast is having its foreshadowings now in trade unionism and such affiliations, It says in Ezekiel 9:4, "Go through the midst of the city … and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh … for all the abominations … in the midst thereof". Is that over against the devil's mark, the coming of the lawless one and the mark on the forehead? We are obviously standing aside from these matters. The man with the ink-horn sets a mark on those who feel the condition of things. Should not christians be available for

that mark as avoiding anything that is a foreshadowing of the mark of the beast?

J.T. It is a question, therefore, as to what is observable in us externally, christians becoming intelligible in that sense as marked off by Christ.

Rem That would link on with what our brother said, that if it involves suffering the Spirit of glory and the Spirit of God would rest upon us.

PETER'S FIRST EPISTLE AS BEARING ON THE PRESENT MOMENT (5)

1 Peter 5:1 - 14

J.T. It may be of advantage to be reminded that elderhood, or eldership, is in mind here, Peter himself saying that he was a fellow-elder, and besides that, a "witness of the sufferings of the Christ" and a "partaker of the glory" 1 Peter 5:1. Today the idea of eldership is seen largely in what are called care meetings, that is to say, meetings in the various localities where there are assemblies, in which matters are discussed frankly as the brethren are together, but with no assumption to be definite or final in the decisions reached. All matters for judgment or discipline are to be left for the assembly. It is noticed that in some parts of the world these care meetings have been used for decisions for final action; not intentionally, but perhaps through want of understanding as to the truth of the real position at the present time.

S.McC. Do you mean that if a case comes up for deliberation in the care meeting, and it is felt at the time that it necessitates administrative action in the assembly, we must not accept that as conclusive but wait for the assembly meeting?

J.T. Quite so; that is what is understood generally, and evidently it is the right way.

Ques. So that the care meeting would be deliberative rather than executive?

J.T. Very good.

A.N.W. Would the deliberative part be at the gate, as we may say, and the final administrative action in the city itself?

J.T. Are you referring to the so-called subdivisions, by 'at the gate' and then to the whole assembly in the place?

A.N.W. Yes.

J.T. The word 'subdivision' is not generally used in this part of the world so far as I know; we usually use the word 'meeting'. Subdivision is really a negative thought.

A.R. In your ministry lately you have been speaking about the idea of an assembly in a place. Is that right?

J.T. It is just to avoid the negative side, that a meeting of the Lord's people in which the breaking of bread takes place and all that is attendant upon it is not a negative idea; it is a positive idea.

Rem. So that as we come together at the Supper we are on assembly ground; not partially so, although we may be only one of the meetings in the place.

J.T. That is illustrated in 1 Corinthians 11:20 where the apostle says, "When ye come therefore together into one place"; he does not speak of a subdivision though there was evidently more than one gathering in Corinth.

Rem. That is the character of each gathering.

J.T. Just so.

E.C.T. "With the assembly in their house" 1 Corinthians 16:19: I suppose that would be a case in point?

J.T. That is right, that would indicate that there was more than one and the word 'assembly' is used in this very section alluded to -- the last chapter of 1 Corinthians.

Rem. It is important to get the right term to replace the word 'subdivision'.

J.T. That is why I spoke of it, because 'subdivision' is obviously a negative thought. It is not the whole thought. And the Scriptures warrant attaching the whole thought to a meeting in a brother's house in a town where there may be other meetings.

J.R.H. So you would suggest the word 'meeting'?

J.T. Yes, because it is a question of the saints in their importance and dignity as of the assembly.

E.A.L. I believe you said that the Washington Avenue meeting, for instance, has assembly character, but that the assembly of God is in New York.

J.T. Quite so; if you speak of the assembly of God fully in that sense, that would be all the brethren in all the meetings in the city of New York, or in the city of London, for instance.

S.McC. It would be well to remember, I suppose, that the principle of elderhood stands in relation to the whole city rather than to a particular section of it.

J.T. The word 'elder' is used in connection with cities as well as assemblies. The importance of a city is sometimes stressed by the fact that the elder is for the city; but it is never just one elder, it is always in the plural, so far as I remember.

F.N.W. In view of the stress you are laying on the character of each meeting in a city, is it in order for brethren to break bread in just one place out of several, when many brethren are away from the city for meetings like this?

J.T. Well, that is acceptable; but I think the meetings ought to be continued in the places where they are usually held, if it is possible.

Rem. There is the thought of continuity in the position being held assemblywise.

W.F.W. Why is eldership linked on with suffering here?

J.T. It is just to bring out the peculiar place the apostles had. They were witnesses of the sufferings of Christ, as he says here, "their fellow-elder and witness of the sufferings of the Christ" 1 Peter 5:1. I believe the Lord intended that the apostles should all have that distinction, that they should be witnesses of the sufferings of Christ.

A.A.T. In what locality was Peter an elder?

J.T. It would be just in the sense that he had that distinction in testimony as attached to his

experience as an apostle. I do not think he would be an elder locally in any other sense than that he had the distinction of eldership because of his experience in the Lord's company as an apostle.

A.A.T. It is not a universal thought, is it?

J.T. Well, it is quite universal if applied to an apostle. The apostle Peter had that distinction clearly.

A.N.W. John writes two letters as "the elder".

J.T. That is another illustration that it is universal in that sense, because the apostles have a distinction that no others have. John speaks of the apostles as having a fellowship: "That which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us", that is, with the apostles; not simply with Christians but with those who had apostleship; "that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ" 1 John 1:3. No other persons have that distinction.

J.R.H. Does that underlie the use of the term 'elder' in his second and third epistles?

J.T. I would think so; it is a distinction attached to apostleship.

Ques. So that other than with the apostles the thought of elders seems always to be in the plural. In Titus 1:5 it is "elders in each city"; and in Acts 14:23 it is "elders in each assembly". Do you think the singular thought of elder was confined to the apostles?

J.T. Possibly that is so.

W.L. Is the suggestion here that there are elders in each local assembly? It says, "The elders which are among you" 1 Peter 5:1.

J.T. This, of course, is an allusion to apostolic days, showing that the thought of individuality of eldership is not so much in mind; it is usually in the plural in the assemblies. "And having chosen

them elders in each assembly" Acts 14:23; the apostles did that -- Paul and Barnabas.

A.R. Would the idea of elders in a locality being in the plural help to maintain unity in a locality?

J.T. It would. It should establish more power, more authority in the rule of the assembly.

W.W. Would Titus 1:5 bear that out? "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou mightest go on to set right what remained unordered, and establish elders in each city".

J.T. Very good.

Ques. In view of the prominence that the care meeting has among us now, I mean in a right way, how does elderhood function?

J.T. It would be in general based on the brother's experience I should think, and whatever ability God had given him for rule. You have in 1 Corinthians 12 persons that help, and then governments, persons with the ability to govern. Certain things are linked on with the word 'gift' and amongst them is the word 'government'.

A.N.W. When you say experience, you mean experience with God in assembly affairs?

J.T. Yes; but in the scripture I referred to there is more than that, because these things are connected with the idea of gift.

J.L.P. Would that also come in in 1 Timothy 5:17, "Let the elders who take the lead among the saints well be esteemed worthy of double honour, specially those labouring in word and teaching"? I refer to the matter of gift being linked on with eldership.

J.T. So that if they have ability to minister the word they should have double honour, showing how careful God is for His servants that a certain honour should be attached to them. Therefore if a man who is able to exercise gift in the ministry of the word also exercises eldership in the assembly, he has a

double office, you might say. And God is very liberal in distributing honours amongst His servants. The brethren are not always very liberal; not that the servants should seek it, but I do not think the brethren are just as liberal as they might be in those things. They are too commonplace in referring to persons whom God has distinguished.

Ques. Is there help to be seen in Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, wherein the Holy Spirit has set you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God"? Are they set up at the present day by the Holy Spirit?

J.T. Well, all these pristine or apostolic times have to be noted because there were marks in them that have not extended down to our times. We are in remnant times; we are in a day of small things and we must accept it, because God uses that word. We ought not to clothe the present time with the same distinction that attached to apostolic times.

W.W. Would it be right to say that if the features of an elder are there God will bring them to light?

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. Do you mean that in the apostles' day things were more official?

J.T. They were more official because the word 'apostles' is used; and in Luke the word 'apostles' is used in regard to the Lord's supper, because Luke would show there was distinction attached to the apostolic position that we do not get later.

Ques. Is that why it is wise in public announcements or communications to avoid official terms where possible? For instance, if you announce an assembly meeting it is generally a meeting of assembly character rather than stating it formally. I think we have learned that from you.

J.T. I think that is perhaps quite right. I am never afraid of the word 'assembly' because the Lord cherishes the thought and the word. Even if it has

just the character of the assembly, the Lord has in mind to distinguish it.

Rem. I was just making the distinction between what belonged to the pristine, apostolic days and what becomes us in a broken position publicly; not that it should diminish the value of the assembly in our hearts privately.

B.W. In this matter of eldership, if the older brothers in a small locality are neglecting matters would it be out of place for younger brothers to exercise eldership?

J.T. It is a question of whether their youth is despisable. It says, "Let no one despise thy youth" 1 Timothy 4:12, but that is your matter. If you are a young man it is your matter to see that there is dignity and sobriety enough about you to preclude any despisal of your youth; because young people may have to do things that old people are better qualified for. But if so, they have to accept the fact, and they must see to their behaviour as in Timothy's case.

S.McC. Joseph would be a striking example, would he not, of a young man who fled youthful lusts but was marked by wise administrative ability in things, God making him a father as it is said. Is it not an unusual case?

J.T. Very good, "to … teach his elders wisdom" Psalm 105:22.

S.McC. I thought it was seen in a young man like Joseph as based on moral lines and fleeing evil.

W.L. In that way would the thought of faithful men obtain today?

J.T. I think so. The word 'faithful' may be applied if the man is faithful.

Ques. As to the working of the gift of government in connection with the meetings, how is it to be used if a visiting brother is in a locality who might be marked by that gift? Are the brethren entitled to make use of him?

J.T. I should think so if it is gift that is usable universally. Eldership is never regarded as a gift exactly, but government is. It is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12.

J.R.H. Would you not be free to make use of such a gift, even when he is outside of the locality, on the line of seeking help as to principles?

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. A visiting brother would give light, not tell them what to do.

J.T. Yes, it is just to give them light. If God has given him ability, let him use it; use it, of course, with skill.

Ques. You were speaking about young men and their behaviour as pertaining to eldership. Paul says to Timothy, "Rebuke not an elder sharply" 1 Timothy 5:1. Is that an indication for the younger ones as to how to behave in their localities toward older brothers?

J.T. Just so; it says a certain man is to be treated with double honour, showing that God is liberal with His distinctions which He grants to His servants.

R.B.P. Does Elihu in the book of Job give us a good lead as to how to move in relation to those who are older?

J.T. Elihu is a very good lead; he waited for his elders and let them speak first, which is a good point. What we have just said is very important, that God is liberal with His distinctions to those who serve Him and the younger brethren ought to bear that in mind and not be commonplace in the way they speak of the servants of God and their services.

W.W.M. In regard to younger men, would you say a word as to the responsible element? The Lord speaks to the angel of the assembly in Revelation 2 and 3: how would that correspond with eldership?

J.T. Of course, we should first have to decide what the word 'angel' there means, whether it is

simply representation in a brother or in certain brethren as an element, or whether it is an actual angel. I think it is rather the former, as representative of God in a locality, whom the Lord addresses in relation to the assembly. If it is a group of brethren that might be in mind we have to respect them peculiarly because they are representative of God in the assembly in that sense. The seven assemblies all have those words addressed to them and we must regard them in their significance.

A.R. It is a poor thing in a locality to see the young brothers together apart from the old brothers, do you not think?

J.T. It is better that they should mingle as much as possible because they are dependent on each other.

Ques. Do you think that eldership develops through the acceptance of responsibility?

J.T. Very likely. You will notice in the meetings that if a young man has a sense of responsibility it will soon show itself in what he does and says, and brethren begin to respect him.

Rem. He soon gains experience on that line.

E.A.L. Referring to the remark, "Rebuke not an elder sharply, but exhort him as a father" 1 Timothy 5:1, one would normally look at a father with affection. Would that help us?

J.T. Just so; that is, your mind runs back to Abraham for he is the common father of all of us, so that you get some idea of fatherhood in him. He is representative of God as Father.

F.W. Would you say that 1 Corinthians 6:2 suggests dignity and ability? "Do ye not then know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world is judged by you, are ye unworthy of the smallest judgments?"

J.T. Very good; therefore if you have such a case let the brethren come together and decide what

is right and wrong in the matter, and let it not drag along and defile the whole assembly; because that is what happens if a matter is left, and you may have division in the end.

Ques. Is it in order in a case like that to pick out certain brethren who may be specially qualified to deal with the matter?

J.T. I should say so; if documentary evidence is needed let them examine the documents and arrive at the truth in an honest and open way, so that it carries the confidence of all; because the local assembly is not alone, the whole district is involved.

Rem. So that it is an essential feature of any matter that facts should be established.

J.T. Exactly.

Rem. One recalls what was done at Newcastle some years ago, in which I think you had some part, when certain brothers regarded as competent to examine business transactions were asked to make a report.

J.T. Quite so, why should they not? We should have confidence in brothers like that, not simply that they are able in a general sense, but they are able in a moral sense and trustworthy.

Rem. As carrying the general confidence of the brethren.

J.T. Quite so.

A.R. On that occasion all that was done was just to give light, not to say what to do.

J.T. Just so, to establish the facts. We are to follow righteousness, and that word 'righteousness' covers all such things. We are to pursue it, it says.

S.J.H. Would you say what is involved in binding on humility in verse 5? It seems to apply to both the younger and the elder, "all of you bind on humility towards one another" 1 Peter 5:5.

J.T. I think we understand the meaning of the word 'humility'. "Binding" means it does not fall

off quickly; a thing is there to stay if it is bound on.

Rem. Put on permanently.

J.T. Just so, it does not come off at once.

Ques. Is it in contrast to the young man who had the cloth lightly thrown about him? He soon lost that.

J.T. It was snatched off him. So it says, "Likewise ye younger, be subject to the elder, and all of you bind on humility towards one another; for God sets himself against the proud, but to the humble gives grace. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in the due time" 1 Peter 5:5. That is a word for us surely, especially for the young.

It was remarked earlier that, while we have the 1 Peter 5 especially in mind, we might also refer to the first chapter of the second epistle beginning at verse 12. What is in mind in 2 Peter is to bring out the thought of sonship, to see how Peter, as about to put off his tabernacle, would have the Lord to be known in His sonship.

S.McC. I think you remarked this morning that you felt there was something in that connection that we had not laid hold of. Had you any special feature in regard to sonship in mind?

J.T. Well, I think it is a beautiful reference that Peter makes here. He says. "For we have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses" -- we have already alluded to witnesses in the first epistle -- "eyewitnesses of his majesty" 2 Peter 1:16. I think that is a magnificent expression -- "eyewitnesses of his majesty": not simply of His sufferings, because Peter alludes to that too in the first letter; but now it is His majesty, and how this is to remain in the minds of the brethren in view of Peter putting off his tabernacle. This matter of sonship really came up within our own time; and

the Lord would put it upon us to have the dignity of Christ, the majesty of Christ, as the apostles -- those in authority -- have left it to us; so that the dignity and majesty of Christ should be amongst us.

Ques. It says of Solomon, "And Jehovah magnified Solomon exceedingly in the sight of all Israel, and bestowed upon him royal majesty such as had not been on any king before him in Israel" 1 Chronicles 29:25. Is that typical of what we have here?

J.T. Very good.

W.F.W. Is the sonship referred to here linked on with the Lord's manhood?

J.T. Clearly; that is the point in it. The John 1 bears on all this matter of sonship; and I might remark here that sonship in John does not apply to the christian, to ourselves; in his gospel the terms 'brethren' and 'disciples' are usually applied to the saints, but sonship is applied to Christ. He is the beloved Son, the only begotten Son; and we should have all these beautiful terms in our minds in view of the continuance of the testimony despite the departure from amongst us of those whom God has used much in it, that the younger men and women may be clearly set up in the thought of Christ's sonship and dignity.

R.W.S. In the presence of all the glory of the world and the abrupt way it is to be finished according to this epistle, this glorious presentation stabilises the soul, does it not?

J.T. That is what I thought. So it would be well to look at 2 Peter 1:12, "Wherefore I will be careful to put you always in mind of these things, although knowing them and established in the present truth". That is another expression to keep in our minds, "the present truth". He goes on, "But I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up" 1 Peter 1:13. Many of us have reached the time

when we feel we are near to the end of our lives in testimony here, and we shall very likely be missed. So that it is a great thing to all be established in what is available in the Scriptures, the Spirit of God being with us always to make things real and to establish us in the truth. "Knowing that the putting off of my tabernacle is speedily to take place, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me" 2 Peter 1:14, showing how intimately the Lord knew and acted amongst His own, His apostles, so that He had manifested to Peter that he was to be martyred. It is remarkable. The Lord as it were distinguished Peter by telling him that he would have to put off his tabernacle: He says to him, "When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst where thou desiredst; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire" John 21:18. That is what the Lord had in mind. Peter when he was young was wayward perhaps, but now he is old and he is going to put off his tabernacle. Well, who are the young people to take his place? That is the point.

C.A.M. Would you say it is worthy of note that Peter speaks of this, the exceeding glory of sonship, at the close of his life? Would it be right to connect it with the fact that the apostle Paul's ministry had also come into his life?

J.T. It is noticeable in the last chapter how lovingly and honourably Peter mentions his beloved brother Paul, which is another thing to be remembered, that the brethren should be united. Those who are leading or distinguished amongst us should be of one mind and able to think of each other in love. That is another thing to be kept before us I am sure.

W.W. What would be the bearing of "the present truth"? 2 Peter 1:12.

J.T. "The present truth" was what Peter was speaking of, and I suppose it would be what Paul brought out about the assembly, He refers to "our beloved brother Paul" 2 Peter 3:15, and he speaks of his writings, because Paul is writing Scripture too.

S.McC. In regard to this thought of sonship to which you have drawn our attention, and His majesty, have we to bear in mind that while we all have part in the assembly in sonship, yet there is what is unique to Christ in relation to His sonship?

J.T. He is unique always, and therefore John carefully avoids applying sonship to ourselves, whereas he stresses it as applied to Christ: "the only-begotten Son", "His only-begotten Son"; we get these terms in John, also "My beloved Son" here and in the synoptic gospels, and "the Son of his love" in Colossians 1:13, and they show what sonship is in Christ.

S.McC. Would there be a similar thought in John 17? In verse 22 there is what we share with Him, but in verse 24 there is what is unique to Him, "that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me" John 17:24.

J.T. Very good.

A.R. You have pointed out that in John's gospel we are spoken of as children. There is only one Man in John's gospel referred to as Son.

J.T. It is very instructive to every one of us, brothers and sisters, and especially sisters because they do not follow things as they might. I only refer to that because it is to their own advantage that the sisters as well as the brothers should take note of what is said in the ministry, and have it in their souls. So John's gospel stresses sonship in Christ.

E.C.T. I was thinking of John 9would it help the young people and all of us to see the position the man was in when this truth was made known to

him? He made confession and then as a result he is in the outside place; and the light comes to him in that position.

J.T. Just so; in John 9 the Lord asked the man whether he believed on the Son of God.

W.F.W. Peter touches on the idea of being regulated by the word in contrast to "cleverly imagined fables"2 Peter 1:16. Would that fit in with what we have been having?

J.T. It is remarkable that the word 'cleverly' is used, showing how, in the system we have already alluded to, cleverness and learning and skill have such a place; and they are turned to account to stress the idea of fables, things that are not true. Such things are being stressed in that system.

Ques. May I ask about the Father's voice?

J.T. "For we have not made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, following cleverly imagined fables, but having been eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory" -- we have already alluded to the use and the non-use of the article in Peter's epistles and it is very remarkable. Notice the non-use of the article here: it is 'God Father', as if that would stress the idea. "He received from God [the] Father honour and glory, such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight; and this voice we heard uttered from heaven, being with him on the holy mountain" 2 Peter 1:16 - 18. Wonderful! "The holy mountain" refers to the mount of transfiguration. Peter, James and John were, it would seem, the only ones taken up there; Peter therefore had a leading place in the matter and he heard this voice, and speaks of "the excellent glory". He heard the voice and was an eyewitness too; he was an eyewitness of the glory.

Rem. In John 17:6 where the Lord's sonship is referred to in such a glorious way the Lord refers to His own as men, "the men whom thou gavest me". Would that link on with Paul's thought of the full-grown man in connection with the knowledge of the Son of God? John also uses the word "these", and it is put in the emphatic type⁺ as well as the words "thou" and "me", suggesting the dignity of the position which would so elevate us and yet give to Christ His proper place.

J.T. Then, too, another thing that comes out in John 17 is eternal life. Some one commented in our meetings that it is everlasting life. Well, it is everlasting life, but it is more than that, and therefore the article is put into it in John 17:3 "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent". You get the true thought of eternal life there.

Ques. Is that in view of the apostles being left in the sphere of testimony where death was?

J.T. I suppose so. It is in keeping with John that "the eternal life" was there and the Lord wanted it to be known; "this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" John 17:3. So that the Father there is alluded to as the only true God, but in John's epistle the Son is the true God, showing that the interchange of title and terms or designations may pass on from one divine Person to Another. And that brings out the greatness and glory of the divine names and Persons, especially in regard to the Spirit who has now come to such distinction amongst the brethren. I hope He will come into more, too, than He has already. What we are saying now is not only to stress Paul but to stress John because John and Peter have a distinct place of their own.

⁺This remark refers to earlier editions of the New Translation – ED.

J.W.W. Would Peter's message in this chapter be to emphasise the Father's delight in the Son? We have not the word "hear Him" here as we have in the gospel by Matthew.

J.T. Perhaps that is so.

A.N.W. Can you explain why Peter appears in so much better light in his letter than he does in the record of the transfiguration in Matthew or the other gospels?

J.T. I think God is honouring him. He is about to put off his tabernacle and I think God is honouring him. The Lord had told him about it and now it is about to happen and I think the Lord is going to distinguish Peter as he is just going to die; because he was undoubtedly martyred.

Ques. Do you not think it shows that perhaps at the time of an experience we may not gain so much as we do subsequently when we have the knowledge that comes of reflection, and the effect of further discipline and God's formation in the soul? Peter does not seem to have done so very well at the time, but he does very well here. Is not that the case many times?

J.T. It is great comfort that, while sometimes we do well and sometimes we do not, the Lord takes every opportunity to make much of it when we do do well; and Peter did well many times. It is said of him, "first … Peter". Matthew alone says that of him.

W.L. Would you say he had come into the gain of "the present truth"? 2 Peter 1:12.

J.T. I would say that; probably in that phrase he is alluding to some of Paul's writings.

J.W.D. It is put as if the excellent glory speaks, "such a voice being uttered to him by the excellent glory". 2 Peter 1:17.

J.T. It is one of Peter's ways to use good adjectives. He uses the word 'precious' in a peculiar way

and several other adjectives that remain with you, and this "excellent glory" is one of them. It is one of the finest phrases you can use.

Ques Would you tell us if there is any connection between that verse and Psalm 16:3, "To the saints that are on the earth, and to the excellent thou hast said, In them is all my delight"?

J.T. That is the Lord's own voice, it is the Messiah speaking so that it fits in here, showing that Peter had learned from the Lord undoubtedly the meaning of the word 'excellent'.

R.W.S. Cannot we now pray to God to give us, as it were, a double blessing? Peter was going to put off his tabernacle in the light of this glory; but is not the Lord helping us to see the glory and at the same time maintaining in life those brothers who are serving us? Is it not right to ask for that?

J.T. Quite so.

Ques. Do you think Paul in saying "we had the sentence of death in ourselves" 2 Corinthians 1:9 would show how he had arrived at this matter and was serving in the light of it? Whereas Peter would serve with the knowledge in his soul that he was to be martyred; also that he was to glorify God in his death.

J.T. I think heaven must have a special place for martyrs, because martyrdom acquired such a place in Stephen's history, the apostle Paul himself saying, "thy martyr Stephen" Acts 22:20. That is how Paul refers to him in speaking to the Lord. Well then the question is what place martyrdom has in the places of distinction that heaven has, for it has such.

A.N.W. The crown of life is the martyr's reward, is it not?

J.T. Quite so. Peter was intended by Herod to be put to death quite early in the history of the assembly, but the Lord saved him. He was saved to further serve the saints; that is the position. So with the apostle Paul himself; he says he desired to

depart to be with Christ which is far better, but the Lord decided that he should stay longer to serve the saints. That is a great matter with those of us who are older, that we wish to stay here to serve the saints; and heaven knows that and makes a record of it. So I think that the martyrs must have a great place in heaven; the annals of martyrdom must have a great place in heaven, what God thinks of those who laid their lives down for Christ. We hardly know anything about that, I must confess, but still there it is. So Peter here alludes to his own death, "as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me" 2 Peter 1:14, showing that Peter's martyrdom had a great place in His mind.

A.R. So that if we want a brother to stay, heaven honours that. It is a question of the will of God.

J.T. The brethren want the servants to stay, of course, but I am speaking now of what heaven thinks of that and of what is going on in all this wonderful dispensation; what things are happening and how heaven has been recording them; so that nothing is omitted there in the annals of heaven. Peter must have a great place from the way he speaks here.

Rem. There is an interjection in connection with the Old Testament saints in Hebrews 11:38: it says, "of whom the world was not worthy", as if Scripture would call special attention to that.

J.T. Just so; and then we are told of the kind of deaths and the experiences they were put to. One hardly knows anything about it. What history there has been in the assembly from the beginning until now, and how heaven regards it! We should aspire to have our places there.

J.R.K. In Acts 15:26 it refers to "men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". Would that make it possible for us to come into it at the present time?

J.T. Very good, they gave up their lives. The Lord takes much note of what they did and what they suffered.

W.W. Would Revelation 6:9 bear that out? "And when it opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony".

J.T. They were sealed beneath the altar; they had offered up their lives to death for the Lord's sake. Therefore they are seen beneath the altar.

J.K. Paul speaks of the time of his release being at hand and of what the Lord had laid up for him. Would that be a further evidence of the appreciation of heaven?

J.T. Quite so; "The time of my release is come", he says 2 Timothy 4:6. And then another thing for us to take to heart is the matter of those who love His appearing. Certain rewards are given to those who love His appearing. It is very near now, and do we love it?

THE PRESENT DISPENSATION AS SET FORTH IN JACOB AND JOSEPH (1)

Genesis 28:10 - 22

J.T. For this series of meetings the book of Genesis is in mind, which of course is extensive in its scope; therefore we shall have to make selections, and the selections will bear on Jacob. The patriarchs are in mind, Jacob specifically, and Jacob in the typical sense, but also in the peculiar way in which he is seen in Scripture as extending beyond the primary patriarchs, Abraham and Isaac. They will be in mind too, but the thought is that Jacob extends beyond the scope of these two patriarchs; he extends from the middle of Genesis to the end of the book. One is concerned that the brethren may not be misled or confused in what is now being said, but that there may be quietness and patience in asking and answering questions so that we may see that there is something the Spirit of God would bring to our attention from the start of the truth to the end. And we are at the end now; there is no doubt about that. The question is how we should break into the subject and take it on at this particular time and see how it works out, first in Jacob himself and then in Joseph; because Joseph's part in it is very peculiar -- a young man coming in at the age of seventeen. He is especially mentioned as being seventeen years of age. We should enquire why it is that he should come in, a young man in the patriarchal book, and what meaning it may have for us at the present time. Then we should see how matters work out toward the end of the book, the great intelligence marking elderly men, Jacob especially, but referring also to brethren at the present time who are experienced and aged, but on the other hand what there is for us in a very young man such as Joseph.

I believe there is something the Lord will give us as to these matters.

The thought now is to take up the history of Jacob as such. We have begun at chapter 28 -- the point at which Jacob had deceived his father. This and other things that follow show that God has not taken up a man of great perfection to set out His thoughts. He has taken up Jacob, a man marked by great uncertainty in his early life, and as we said, deceiving his father in a most shameful way, his mother being in it too. His father is seen here as being concerned about his family connections, his marital connections, which is a matter that all young people should take account of. So Isaac is concerned about a wife for Jacob, as Abraham had been for Isaac. The marital side has an immense place in the Scriptures and Isaac is outstanding as to it. His father had caused the eldest servant of his house to swear that he would not take a wife for him of the daughters of the land, but that he would go to his own people, which the servant did. The history is given in Genesis 24 in which we have the idea of the Spirit of God taken up in a peculiar way, in a way in which the light is shed, I believe, on the whole truth of the Spirit at the present time. It is a question in one's mind as to how we may approach this subject, not saying too much on one point of it, but seeing what a place it has in the divine thoughts and how it is to work out eternally; because it is to work out eternally in what the assembly is to Christ: Christ and the assembly.

Now in the family of Abraham we have not only Isaac, but Jacob, and we have him brought forward in a peculiar way in this chapter where he set out to go into the east to get a wife. What we have read will, I think, open up something as to the character of the man that the Spirit of God has taken up in these matters, So it is said that "Jacob went out

from Beer-sheba, and went towards Haran. And he lighted on a certain place, and lodged there, because the sun had set. And he took one of the stones of the place, and made it his pillow, and lay down in that place" Genesis 28:10,11. So it is a hard position for Jacob in the sense in which we have spoken of it, but then he is now under the control of his father in what he is doing, whereas his brother Esau is a natural man and takes another course. Jacob is now subject to his father, and we shall see how the idea of subjection works out in the whole history of Jacob, and how Joseph comes into it too. We shall see how the youthful side comes forward in Joseph, and how the patriarchal or experience side comes out in Jacob and remains right through to the end of the book. So that it is a question as to what is current amongst us, dear brethren, whether youth has its place, and whether the aged have their place; whether the balance is maintained in the truth. We shall see that spirituality will open up as to it, because spirituality must have the leading place amongst us; and we shall see whether it is maintained both in the aged and in the youth.

S.McC. The importance of a right wife in the marital relation is to be stressed, is it not?

J.T. That is just what I am trying to say. There are many young people here, and it is a question whether their youth is made to bear on the assembly; whether it is made to bear on spirituality in both brothers and sisters.

S.J.H. Why should Jacob be sent to seek his own wife, while with Isaac the servant is sent?

J.T. That is a very good question. I think God is going to make a test of the man He is about to use, as to whether he can be trusted; whether he is going to rely on his parents, or the brethren, or whether he can be trusted in anything that he is engaged in.

S.J.H. I wondered if you had in mind that we should be more spiritual in such matters?

J.T. I have, as to whether the parents are spiritual, and have spiritual thoughts in their minds for their young ones, or whether the matter is wholly left with them. Then are the young ones themselves capable of being trusted with a wife or with a husband, so as to have part in the assembly and the service of God?

S.W. Would you say how far the parental influence should go in relation to seeking a wife?

J.T. Well, I think Abraham would set out that idea. He makes a great deal of it, even causing the servant to swear about it, so that clearly it is a matter of prime importance. It is not simply that a young person may get married, but whether the bearing of the whole matter is on the assembly, on spirituality; whether they can be trusted even with marriage, with a husband or with a wife. They are tested by the way they regard the things of God and treat them.

H.B. Is the contrast seen in Esau? it says in Genesis 28:7 that, "Jacob had obeyed his father and his mother", over against what Esau had done.

J.T. Yes, Esau is over against Jacob in that sense, that he is not to be trusted. He is a profane man, a most solemn thing. How much profanity may enter into our relations and business! It is a real challenge. Certain things have happened recently in one of our cities that bear in on all this; happenings in families and in businesses which have brought down the truth to the level of profanity. That is to say, righteousness is not governing everything. We are to follow "righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart" 2 Timothy 2:22. That is the test, and that is how things are to be governed.

E.G.McA. Does the fear of God take a prominent part in the beginning of the history of such a one?

J.T. I would say it must take a prominent part in everything. "The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of wisdom" Psalm 111:10, and whether it be a question of a wife, or a husband, or of business, it is a question of the fear of God, and God must have full place in the matter.

R.W.S. When Rebecca leaves her home in chapter 24 they say to her, "Thou art our sister; mayest thou become thousands of tens of thousands; and may thy seed possess the gate of their enemies!" Genesis 24:60. Does that not bear upon having the assembly in mind in marital links?

J.T. Quite so, showing that the whole matter is extending to the family, how the family is affected by this event. It is not only a question of the young sister and the young man to whom she is to be married, but it is extended to the whole family; it is affecting the whole family. So these marriages are not simply local, they affect the testimony; it is a question of the testimony, of what there is for God, Hence the chief servant of Abraham's house is talking about Abraham and about what belongs to Abraham, and he is under Abraham's direction, selecting the camels and all that is needed. And when the young woman that he is deputed to find comes to light she is such a one that he wonders at her; the Spirit of God, as it were, is seen in the type wondering at the assembly.

R.B.P. In Genesis 24 Isaac is viewed as returning from Beer-lahai-roi, and here Jacob moves from Beer-sheba. Do these two positions represent what is spiritual in these men as entering into these links?

J.T. I think they would. Beer-lahai-roi comes in prior to that in relation to Hagar and Ishmael, that is to say the Spirit of God is seen in relation to

Hagar and Ishmael; a remarkable thing that the Spirit of God should be seen in that connection first. But then Isaac is seen there subsequently, and now Jacob is seen in connection with Beer-sheba. It is a question of the faithfulness of God in the latter case.

A.S.C. Jacob moves out in relation to Abraham, his father Isaac in his charge to him going back to the beginning and saying, "the Almighty God bless thee, and make thee fruitful, … that thou mayest become a company of peoples. And may he give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee and to thy seed with thee" Genesis 28:3,4.

J.T. Showing that Abraham was the prime thought with God; the patriarchal thought was in Abraham at the beginning, and it says of him that God chose him alone and blessed him. So that we do not need to move in groups in the beginning of our spiritual history; God chooses us alone to bless us. That is what we shall see in Genesis 32, that God not only selected Jacob, but He found him alone and wrestled with him. Abraham is the great patriarchal thought in the book, and the wifely side is now in view, as to where the wives come from and what they are. So that today the question is whether any given marriage is taken account of in relation to the testimony; and so too with our business matters, whether they can be related to the testimony. That is the idea, otherwise our manner of life is just worldly, our marriages and our businesses. It is a question of the testimony first, and last, and all the time.

A.T.D. Would that be in Rebecca's heart in the last verse of the previous chapter? She makes it a life or death matter: "If Jacob take a wife of the daughters of Heth", she says, "what good should my life do me?" Genesis 27:46.

J.T. Quite so; that is worth noting.

C.H.H. I was wondering whether the proposition of Saul to give Michal to David would be to counteract what God had in mind in connection with David?

J.T. A very striking instance; he intended to destroy David through his wife, a most terrible thought.

S.J.H. What is involved in the particular instructions to Jacob? Abraham had said in relation to Isaac, "bring not my son thither again" Genesis 24:6.

J.T. He was not to take him back to Padan-Aram; Abraham did not want him taken back to natural connections. Of course the natural ought to be there, but in the sense of what is of God, which is seen in both Rachel and Leah as well as in Rebecca. It is a question of what is of God in a given position, so that even though the person may be in relations that might be questionable he himself is right. He has the idea of righteousness in his mind and can be trusted.

R.H. Would Jacob's exercises in connection with a wife be linked with Peter's epistles, and Genesis 24 more with Paul? I was thinking about the thought of obedience, and the Spirit being given to those who obey; and then husbands dwelling with wives according to knowledge, and so on.

J.T. Quite so; that is very profitable and instructive. Peter deals with the government of God, not especially with the assembly; Paul deals especially with the assembly, and therefore what he introduces in the wifely connection has the assembly in mind. "I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly", he says. Ephesians 5:32.

A.S.B. Is that why Paul, as having the assembly and the testimony in mind, says in speaking to the Corinthians regarding the marital relationship, "but I think that I also have God's Spirit"? 1 Corinthians 7:40.

J.T. A most remarkable thing; you find it only there that things are left to the spiritual judgment of

a brother: "I think that I also have God's Spirit". He was speaking of marital matters, and it was a question of whether what he was saying was just right, and so the Spirit is brought into it. Why should Paul speak as if it were at all questionable that he had the Spirit? But it is to bring out that the Spirit must be recognised, even although He may keep Himself out of sight; He must be recognised. Whatever comes up, the Spirit must have His place.

S.McC. Is it not a matter of encouragement to such as Jacob represents in these circumstances that God comes into the position and takes up a definite stand in it to assure Jacob's heart?

J.T. I am glad you bring that up, because we have come to a point in our reading where we need it. We have already noted that "Jacob went out from Beer-sheba, and went towards Haran. And he lighted on a certain place, and lodged there, because the sun had set" Genesis 28:10,11. Now that seems a very small incident, but as we shall see again in Genesis 32 where the sun had gone down, there is something in that for Jacob. It goes on, "And he took one of the stones of the place, and made it his pillow, and lay down in that place" Genesis 28:11. So that this place is to be remembered, and what happened in it. Then it says, "And he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to the heavens. And behold, angels of God ascended and descended upon it. And behold, Jehovah stood above it" Genesis 28:12. Well, now, you have something to say on that, the position that Jehovah has taken up as standing above the place where Jacob is lying with a stone for his pillow. What is there for us in that?

S.McC. It is not the ordinary word for 'standing' that is used, it is a specific word that is used previously in Genesis 18. Jehovah stood, stationed Himself.

J.T. Just so, and in that chapter there were three heavenly visitors, I mean there were two angels apparently with Him, but the position was taken up definitely, as if God was there to take on the matter. It is not casual; He is taking something on, both as to Jacob and earlier as to Abraham.

S.McC. In regard to the hard circumstances universally in relation to trade unionism, is it not important to take account of God as coming into the position and linking on with us, if we are prepared to go with Him?

J.T. It is, indeed. We have information that what happened in Brisbane has worked out most successfully under God. It is according to what you say, that God came into the thing. It was not simply that certain brothers would take the thing on and bring it before the authorities, but God came into the thing, manifestly so. As the proceeding went on the authorities became favourable to the brethren, meaning that God was acting for them. And I believe that in New Zealand the same thing will be seen, because the brethren in New Zealand are at the present time petitioning the authorities on the same point. It is a question of praying about it, and seeing what will happen. We in New York have a similar exercise and some have taken it on. It is a question of the brethren coming into things, because God is always ready to come into things with us if we wish Him to be in them, and if we are ready to suffer; because we must suffer if the thing is to go through according to God. There must be suffering.

C.A.M. In connection with your prayer at the beginning as to this city in which we are, is it not remarkable as regards Beth-el, that it states that the name of the city was Luz at the first; as if that centre had taken on a new meaning altogether in the divine mind?

J.T. That is very good. We shall see something more about that when we come to chapter 35. But to proceed in the chapter we have read, it says, "And behold, Jehovah stood above it. And he said, I am Jehovah, the God of Abraham, thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land on which thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed. And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south; and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And behold, I am with thee". Now this is the point -- "behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places to which thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee until I have done what I have spoken to thee of. And Jacob awoke from his sleep, and said, Surely Jehovah is in this place, and I knew it not. And he was afraid" Genesis 28:13 - 16. That is, he was not equal to the position; but God is not giving it up though Jacob was not equal to it at first.

S.W. In relation to these affiliations, whether they be business or marital, would you say one has to take on the matter individually? It is so in relation to Genesis 24 where the Spirit is seeking the bride; and similarly here where it is Jacob in responsibility?

J.T. The point is, I think, that God has come into the matter. It is a marital matter purely and simply at first, that Jacob is not to marry a wife of the daughters of the land, as Esau did. Jacob is going a long way to get a wife, and he is alone and in hard circumstances, but God comes into them. It says that he "awoke from his sleep, and said, Surely Jehovah is in this place, and I knew it not, And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven" Genesis 28:16,17. It is a peculiar confusion of mind, a "dreadful … place", and yet it is "the

house of God". Why should we be so confused in our minds about these things?

J.McK. Would 2 Timothy 4:16,17 help in what you are saying? Paul says, "At my first defence no man stood with me … But the Lord stood with me, and gave me power; … and I was delivered out of the lion's mouth". I was thinking of what has been said as to the power of unionism: it is like the lion's mouth waiting to destroy us and our faith in the position into which God has brought us.

J.T. Well, there is suffering in it. We must accept the principle of suffering if we are going to get anything, because the Lord Jesus has come into the position of suffering. I think that is the point now in this chapter as to Jacob; he has come into a hard position, hut he is confused in his mind as in it. I was thinking of the word in Philippians 4:5, "The Lord is near". You may say. 'Why is He not in the thing?' But He is near. We have to consider the difference between the Lord's being in the thing with us and being near to us, so that we are tested by the nearness, or by the distance, or by His presence.

R.R.T. Though Jacob was not equal to it at first, would what he said later in chapter 31, when he is speaking to his wives about Laban, indicate that he had come into it somewhat then in his own soul? He spoke of how Laban had changed his wages, "But", he said, "God suffered him not to hurt me" Genesis 31:7.

J.T. It is remarkable how you get that in his case all the way through. You marvel at it, too, because he was so crooked in many ways. At the same time he was true. What we shall come to in chapter 48 will greatly help us as to the aged, what they have in the way of knowledge, and how they know what they have; on the other hand, what the youth may have, or may not have; it is to bring out

the balance that God would have between the youth arid the aged, so that the truth might stand in its fulness and not slip away from us. Because there is a great danger of its slipping away from us if we allow industrial things and marital things to sway us unduly.

G.A.S. Does not God greatly help us in these matters by giving us an early sense that He has taken us on, and will see us through?

J.T. That is very good. He has taken Jacob on here, and He intends to stay by Jacob. There is a difference between a person being near to God and God being near to him, or God being actually with him; but there is comfort in the word in Philippians 4:5, that "The Lord is near". And the same epistle gives us the things that we are to be occupied with, pure things, and noble, and of good report, and virtuous; that we are to think on these things so that we may be kept right in our youth.

J.K.P. Is there a suggestion here of God shutting out one world to Jacob, but bringing into his soul the light of another world? I was thinking of the reference to the gate of heaven.

J.T. It is remarkable. We get this alluded to in the first chapter of John, "the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man" John 1:51, showing that we are in great things typically in this chapter, so great that the Spirit of God brings them into the gospel of John.

Ques. Why is the ascending brought in before the descending?

J.T. Well, the word in Ephesians 4:10 is, "He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things". He has ascended up above all the heavens -- outside of them all -- He has ascended beyond any creature position.

J.S. The scripture you quoted in John 1:51 is helpful as to this; there it is "ascending and descending on the Son of man". He is the central figure.

J.T. Quite so; but what comes before us now is the inquiry as to why the ascending should come first. The ascending is final, but the descending must come first actually, the Lord descended into the lower parts of the earth; but then He has ascended far above all heavens, and the ascension brings in the gifts, that He "has given gifts to men". So that we are now in the presence of a wonderful matter, that is, the gifts that God has given for the building up of the assembly.

J.H.P. Does this passage indicate the importance of the service of angels in suffering times? One thinks of Paul; he says, "For an angel of the God, whose I am and whom I serve, stood by me this night" Acts 27:23.

J.T. In New Zealand the question came up of angelic service, whether the angels are counted on enough, whether we reckon on them in all these matters, It came in very forcibly that brethren were not making enough of angelic service.

R.R.T. It was brought out in relation to the hard matter of unionism.

J.T. That was just the point that came up there. It had already come up in Australia, and it has finally come into New Zealand in a very distinct way. It is a hard matter, but God has come into it, and nothing can overcome God if He has come into it.

R.R.T. And in these hard matters we have angelic service available.

J.T. That is what I was thinking; we have it available right here in this city. I believe that the Lord would have us follow it up if we are involved in these industrial problems, so that the matter

should be brought where something can be done about it, so that God can come into it.

J.K.P. One like unto the Son of God appearing even in the midst of the fire.

Ques. How do you regard this vow by Jacob? Is he now making a start Godward?

J.T. Well, a vow is quite admissible. If you make it you are to see that you pay it, for God has no pleasure in the sacrifice of fools. God honours a vow, as is seen here in Jacob.

J.W.B. Would the word in Isaiah 43:2,3 confirm what you have in this chapter? There Jehovah says in speaking to Jacob and Israel, "When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee; when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned, neither shall the flame kindle upon thee. For I am Jehovah thy God, the Holy One of Israel". Then again he says, "Fear not, for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the end of the earth, every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory: I have formed him, yea, I have made him" Isaiah 43:5 - 7.

J.T. All that shows what God can be to us, and how the prophets allude to it, the comfort of the Scriptures: "Comfort ye, comfort ye my people" Isaiah 40:1. God is said to be the God of all comfort, and what we are saying now is to bring out the comfort that there is for us as in the testimony; because the point in all this that we have said is the testimony, as we remarked -- first and last and all the time; and suffering in it. It will not do to simply say that we are against trade unionism and such things; the suffering that enters into it is what God supports.

R.H. What is the significance of the thought of the house of God being brought in here?

J.T. It is a question of God, and of how the house of God is connected with Jacob. It is a truth that refers to the earth and belongs properly to Israel, but we have part in it now, because we have the assembly of God, as it says, "the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth" 1 Timothy 3:15. The house of God is in relation to the earth, but the assembly is the pillar and base of the truth.

J.McK. How does fear enter into this matter of the house of God?

J.T. The house of God is what we are going on with in a responsible way in our care meetings; indeed all our meetings are in relation to the house of God.

J.McK. Is the fear Jacob expresses because of what he recognises of himself in a natural way that is unsuitable to this great place? Verse 17 says, "How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God" Genesis 28:17.

J.T. It shows the confusion of mind he was in, which is often the case with us, that we are not clear in our minds. But he came to it afterwards. We may be sure that if God comes into our circumstances He will carry us through in them; but suffering is involved, and that is the point I believe for us to get hold of, that suffering is involved.

P.L. Is Jacob's dread through lack of holiness? Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

J.T. I am sure there is a great need of holiness amongst the brethren. As you quote, without it no one shall see the Lord, a remarkable thing.

S.McC. In Genesis 28:18 it says, "And Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had made his pillow, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil on the top of it". Is there in this the recognition of the Spirit in some kind of way?

J.T. That is just what it is. We shall see it again in chapter 35, but Jacob brings it in here. From the very outset, the very first chapter of Genesis, we have the Spirit brought in. He was hovering over the face of the waters. And I believe God is keeping us to the place the Spirit has in the Scriptures. It says, "And Jacob rose early in the morning, and took the stone that he had made his pillow, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil on the top of it. And he called the name of that place Beth-el" -- meaning 'house of God' -- "but the name of that city was Luz at the first" Genesis 28:18,19. So he has definitely come to the idea of the house of God, although it is a dreadful place to him; he has the idea and he is going on with it, and God is going on with it too. It will come out in the millennium, the house of God.

Ques. What is prominent in Jacob's mind here from the outset is marriage. What place has the Holy Spirit in connection with marriage in the Lord in 1 Corinthians 7? Has He any place in that matter?

J.T. He has, of course. We spoke of that a little while ago. The apostle says, "I think that I also have God's Spirit" 1 Corinthians 7:40. Paul is giving his advice in some marital matters, but he brings forward that he believed he had the Spirit of God with him in what he was saying. And that is the point for us in all our matters, industrial or marital or family, the question is the Spirit. Has the Spirit of God His place with us?

J.W.W. Paul's word to the whole assembly of Thessalonian saints was that they had "accepted the word in much tribulation with joy of the Holy Spirit" 1 Thessalonians 1:6. Would you link that on?

J.T. I would indeed, "joy of the Holy Spirit". Would that one knew more about it! Because there

is very little joy in our hearts as a rule; but there is joy to be had in the Holy Spirit.

S.McC. So would you say that what Jacob has come to here, however undeveloped in this chapter, is the idea that if he is to be in the assembly, in the house of God, rightly, it must be by the Spirit, by recognising the Spirit?

J.T. That is the use of the oil you mean. So that it says, "Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and keep me on this road that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and a garment to put on, and I come again to my father's house in peace -- then shall Jehovah be my God" Genesis 28:20,21. That is to say, he is entering into a covenant, making, as it were, a covenant with God, and God is accepting it. It is all worked out in the course of Jacob's history; and as we go on we shall see, I believe, that the idea of Jacob comes into our assembly service at the present time. The question is whether there is proper balance in it, and I believe this chapter is the beginning of everything in that sense. It is a question of what the man is spiritually. We can see here that he is a spiritual man at bottom, although he is somewhat confused; the idea of what is spiritual runs right through to the end of Genesis.

G.D. "This road that I go" Genesis 28:20; would that involve the testimony.

J.T. It would. He is clearly on the right line. He is under his father's direction, which does not always mark young men; he is under the direction of his father and his mother, and he is conscious, I would say, that God is with him. God has come into the circumstances, and He is going through with Jacob in these circumstances.

R.H. In connection with verse 18, the anointing with the oil is the Holy Spirit, that Person in the economy peculiarly linked with the house of God?

J.T. I think that is right. We are so apt to begin with the truth theoretically, whereas if the Spirit of God comes in and has His place, you have more than theory; you have the substance. We must have the Spirit. The oil is there, which is substantial.

G.A.S. What is involved in "this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house"? Genesis 28:22.

J.T. He says it because he wants to bring the circumstances into it; that is, he is a circumstantial man. We shall see in chapter 32 how circumstantial he is. In that chapter God takes him up alone and Jacob goes through things; but God is in the circumstances with him, and he is spiritual; spirituality is being developed in what he is experiencing. He is crippled, and some of us are crippled, limited, in our circumstances, but God is with us in them, nevertheless; that is the point; and God was with Jacob in his crippled condition. He limped, but God was with him.

A.S.B. Does the pouring on of the oil suggest the liberality of it, as in Acts 2? It is in no way restricted; he poured the oil on it.

J.T. Just so; he did not stint. In the special collections he would not put in the smallest amount possible; he would put in the best amount he could, to be used for the service of God. That is the point here: He said, "and of all that thou wilt give me I will without fail give the tenth to thee" Genesis 28:22. It is the principle of giving; the Lord loves a cheerful giver.

C.E.B. You spoke just now of Jacob following the orders of his father, Would you connect that today with the counsel of the brethren in these matters?

J.T. I certainly would. It says, "in the multitude of counsellors there is safety" Proverbs 11:14. If a brother has wisdom, why not use it? God has given it to him to be used. If he has the power of government, why not use it in the assembly or in the care meetings?

If God has given a man the understanding of government, why should he not use it?

J.S. Would you say that the reference to the father's house in verse 21 shows the recognition of the patriarchal idea? He says, "If … I come again to my father's house" Genesis 28:14.

J.T. It shows the place his father had with him. Esau had not the same exercise about his father. It is a question of the place a father ought to have with a young man. But now he is on the way to Laban; though chapter 35 tells us that he gets back to Isaac, his father, and that he and Esau bury him.

J.W-y. In view of what has been said about the Spirit and the house of God, would Ephesians 2:22 come in -- "in whom ye also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit"?

J.T. Quite so; but the article is not there: it is 'in Spirit'. The point is the Spirit, that the Spirit is prominent there.

J.W.W. In the spiritual instincts marking Jacob, would he be prepared to move on the line of piety and take God into his circumstances?

J.T. I think he would, and I think in general he was right. You love to see young people that are right in their circumstances. You say, There is a good young man who has gift: but is he right morally in every circumstance? You want to know what he is in his business; is he balanced? I think that comes out here in Jacob.

P.L. Would the reference to the house of God here furnish a pattern to Jacob in the ordering of his own house? If one has not at least intuition as to the character of God's house, how could he bring God into his own house?

J.T. I would think that. Joshua said, "As for me and my house, we will serve Jehovah" Joshua 24:15.

P.L. Before he sets up a house. God gives him light as to His own house.

J.T. I think the idea of a man's house is, as Joshua said, that "as for me and my house we will serve Jehovah" Joshua 24:15. Whatever others do, we will do this. It is not a question of the assembly; it is one's own house. Your house is to be used for the promotion of the assembly and for the service of God.

S.W. With David it was after God had given him rest from all his enemies, and when he was dwelling in his house of cedars, that he began to think of the house of God.

J.T. Quite so, and Nathan went rather too fast with him. He says, "Do all that is in thy heart; for Jehovah is with thee" 2 Samuel 7:3. But then God did not mean that David should do the building; it was Solomon that should build the house.

G.A.S. Why does not the thought of building and ornamentation come in in connection with Beth-el?

J.T. It is only the principle of the house there. I do not think Beth-el is anything more than the thought of principle, because there is no actual building there. Jacob did not build the house, it was Solomon who did that; in other words, Christ has built the house. The house of God is built by Christ; the assembly is built by Christ. It is not our doing, it is Christ's doing.

THE PRESENT DISPENSATION AS SET FORTH IN JACOB AND JOSEPH (2)

Genesis 32:22 - 32; Genesis 33:1 - 7

J.T. It is thought that in these two passages we shall see the spiritual side developing in Jacob's history; first in chapter 32 where he is found alone, as it says, "Jacob remained alone; and a man wrestled with him until the rising of the dawn. And when he saw that he did not prevail against him, he touched the joint of his thigh; and the joint of Jacob's thigh was dislocated as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the dawn ariseth. And he said, I will not let thee go except thou bless me. And he said to him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall not henceforth be called Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast wrestled with God, and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked and said. Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, How is it that thou askest after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel -- For I have seen God face to face, and my life has been preserved. And as he passed over Peniel, the sun rose upon him; and he limped upon his hip. Therefore the children of Israel do not eat of the sinew that is over the joint of the thigh, to this day; because he touched the joint of Jacob's thigh -- the sinew" Genesis 32:24 - 32.

That is one thought; and then in the next chapter we have reference to a peculiar development of spiritual feeling and thought in that Jacob places Joseph before Rachel. It will be noticed that the different wives and children were caused to pass before Esau, Jacob arranging the order of approach, as it says. "Leah also, with her children, drew near, and they bowed. And lastly Joseph drew near, and Rachel, and they bowed" Genesis 33:7. That is to say Joseph is

put before his mother, as if to remind us of Christ typically, how He has precedence, being anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions. These are the thoughts that it is hoped we shall be able to enlarge on a little. Another thing is that Genesis 32:1 says, "Jacob went on his way; and the angels of God met him". That is to say, as he is proceeding on his way the angels are attending on him. We have already alluded to angelic service, and it is thought that this has been somewhat eclipsed in our minds as a provision for us in all circumstances; as it says in Hebrews 1:14, "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?". They are all sent out for ministering, but it is for those who are heirs of salvation.

S.McC. In chapter 48 where Jacob shines so well he speaks of the Angel who redeemed him, showing how the matter stood out in his soul.

J.T. In that sense the word "Angel" would undoubtedly signify representation before God. "Their angels in the heavens continually behold the face of my Father who is in the heavens", Matthew 18:10.

L.E.S. Would the passage in Hosea 12 link on with this as to the Angel and the wrestling with God? Would there be the suggestion of the blessed service of the Spirit in His link of intimacy with us?

J.T. You are speaking of the Spirit as seen in the Angel? Great stress is being laid in recent times on the Spirit's activities and services, and chapter 24 of this book affords the greatest instruction as to this. Undoubtedly the Spirit is in mind there, as He is typically in certain passages in the New Testament; for instance, "The master of the house" in Luke 22. Many such references pointing to unnamed persons, humble in their service but yet wonderfully useful and serviceable, would seem to suggest the

Holy Spirit, whose service goes on continually, especially since the revival that we have part in. So Jacob's service is extended right up to the end of Genesis, and the Spirit's service to us, which has continued in a wonderful way, is seen especially in the continuance of the Lord's supper. So now chapter 32 gives us the continuance of Jacob's work and journeying, and then the prayer that he makes, a remarkable illustration of his dependence. He says, "God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, Jehovah, who saidst unto me: Return into thy country and to thy kindred, and I will do thee good -- I am too small for all the loving-kindness and all the faithfulness that thou hast shewn unto thy servant; for with my staff I passed over this Jordan, and now I am become two troops. Deliver me, I pray thee, from the hand of my brother, from the hand of Esau; for I fear him, lest he come and smite me, and the mother with the children. And thou saidst, I will certainly deal well with thee, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude", Genesis 32:9 - 12.

Then in Genesis 32:22 - 24, "He rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two maidservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford of the Jabbok; and he took them and led them over the river, and led over what he had. And Jacob remained alone". That is the conclusive thought in the passage. But Genesis 32:1 says "Jacob went on his way; and the angels of God met him": that was in view of Esau's threats. And so it is said that "when Jacob saw them he said, This is the camp of God. And he called the name of that place Mahanaim" Genesis 32:2. The name signifies 'two camps' I understand; showing the great interest of heaven in Jacob at this moment, and not only the interest but the power available to him -- two camps of angels. Then comes his prayer expressing his dependence on God, and then he takes

care of his family, and finally he is left alone. "Jacob remained alone; and a man wrestled with him until the rising of the dawn" Genesis 32:24. He recognises God in the Man, so that he is brought face to face with God and is allowed to prevail; and so his name is changed. But he is disabled, as we had it this morning, and we are all more or less disabled; but still it is to make way for God, that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us, that God may carry on. He will carry on with us, but He will give us to understand that the excellency of the power is not of us but of Him, that we can count on this.

P.L. You get the expression in Isaiah, "Fear not, thou worm Jacob" Isaiah 41:14. Would that be God's power in extreme weakness?

J.T. It is very expressive of it. The word "worm" is very expressive, but he is not to fear. I would suggest that we are not to fear, we are to be free of the idea; because sometimes we are unduly apprehensive when there is nothing to fear, nothing to be apprehensive about. "Be strong and very courageous": God loves to see in His people an expression of dependence, but yet of courage in it, that we are not afraid.

S.J.H. Might the being alone and wrestling with God that night involve going over with Him all Jacob's business matters which had not been too pleasing?

J.T. Well, there may be that in it; but he is prevailing with God and with men. I mean to say it is the root principle that we are now engaged with, what develops in Jacob at this point. We have already seen him in hard circumstances; under the direction of his father and mother he is in hard circumstances, but God is above him. He is not near him, but He is above him. He is over where Jacob is, and the angels of God are ascending and descending upon the ladder.

S.McC. Does all this show us what enters into the foundations of the man that is so distinguished in the end of this book, the fundamental side?

J.T. I thought that. It came to one's mind quite recently in connection with the Lord's supper, how the thought continues, especially from the time of the revival that we have part in; and it is not dying out, it is rather increasing. Not that one would occupy the brethren with any particular thing that distinguishes them, but I believe that Jacob stands for the increase of the dispensation, the increase of the features of it until the end, and that the Lord's supper is particularly to mark it. It is not to be given up, but is rather to increase in our understanding of it.

P.L. "They go from strength to strength: each one will appear before God in Zion" Psalm 84:7. Is the service the great climax?

J.T. Just so. They all appear. It is not in half measures, you mean?

P.L. Yes, and the accumulative principle, "from strength to strength".

S.McC. Do you mean in regard to the continuance of the service from the time of the revival, that things are not becoming attenuated or weakened, but we have added thoughts in spiritual fulness and freshness?

J.T. That is exactly what I have in mind, that there are added thoughts, and the matter is increasing. You feel it, not because any certain ones are being used in it, but the thing is there.

C.A.M. Would you say in that connection that this inquiry as to the name, God's name, really awaited for its answer the coming in of this present dispensation, when the names of divine Persons would be fully recognised? Jacob says, "Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, How is it that thou askest after my name? And he blessed him

there" Genesis 32:29. The question arose in my mind as to whether the answer to that question did not await the present time?

J.T. So that one is reminded of the same question in the history of Samson. The name of the Angel who announced his birth was 'secret', but it was there. I think it is well to see how the truth is not scattered, but in the ministry it is intelligently divided and separated so that we might understand. The Lord's word was, "How do ye not yet understand?" Matthew 15:17. Jacob represents at the end of his life great intelligence, great understanding, even excelling Joseph.

C.A.M. Were you referring to the matter of worship?

J.T. That is the greatest thought, that he worshipped on the bed's head. But he did everything that was needed; what he had to do, he did; and then he died. Very, very humbling to Joseph, but very beautiful, that Jacob's intelligence should shine in the way of putting the younger above the elder, that is to say, Ephraim above Manasseh; and he says, so to speak, Joseph, I know what I am doing. We are apt to discredit persons who are old, but very often they have more intelligence than the younger.

F.L. Are Jacob's intelligence and his worship brought together in a concise way in Hebrews 11:21 where it says, "By faith Jacob when dying blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshipped on the top of his staff"?

J.T. Very good. It reminds us of the great place that worship has with the brethren; not that one, as I was saying before, would make much of the brethren because of what they are, but God is pleased to make much of them because His service is in their minds and they devote definite times to it. On the first day of the week we have the breaking of bread, the reading of the Scriptures, and the preaching of

the word, all in regular order, even in small gatherings.

R.B.P. Does David link the thought of worship with God's name when he says, "According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise"? Psalm 48:10.

J.T. Just so; and again, "Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me" Psalm 50:23. I think God is helping us, not simply in these meetings which we call special meetings, but in all our gatherings. There are about twenty of these meetings every year on this continent, and I believe that heaven is taking great account of them because they give place to the service of God, and young men are allowed to have part in it. On the other hand young men are learning to be subject and to take their place according to the principle of Elihu in the book of Job. They are taking their place as young men, but still they are learning. So that our lesson now is in this chapter, and we shall proceed in certain order to the last chapter of the book; but I believe in this particular chapter we have much that points, basically at least, to spirituality in Jacob.

R.W.S. This twenty-year postponement is very encouraging for those of us who may have lost time. Now he is facing matters and becoming spiritual.

J.T. You refer to lost time, and we are likely to lose much, especially young men if they make much of industrialism and family life and all that. We have got to see how important the testimony of God is, that is, His service, what is for Him. Jacob at the end worshipped God on the top of his staff. The question is, too, as to how much the sisters enter into this. They do not of course speak audibly in the assembly, for Paul says, "Let your women be silent in the assemblies" 1 Corinthians 14:34; but at the same time they have part in the service. They are priests unto God, and it is a question of how they exercise their priesthood.

R.R.T. Would this chapter indicate that Jacob is progressing in this matter? It says, "thou hast wrestled with God, and with men, and hast prevailed" Genesis 32:28. Does "hast prevailed" indicate that he has reached a definite point now in his soul as progressing in his spiritual exercises?

J.T. I would think so, and that God is pleased with the man. In verse 9 he prays to God in a very humble and simple way; but now when he is left alone he meets with this angel -- or this Man -- because he is called a Man, not an angel, showing that the human side is brought into it.

H.B. The scripture this morning was in relation to the night season, and so is this one. How does that fit in with what is before us? Does it help in the development of spirituality with us?

J.T. Well, the seasons are to be accounted for; we go back to Noah for them, I mean to say for the permanency of the order of God, that there is not to be again a flood, a deluge; the order of God is established, and the seasons come into it so that while the earth remains seedtime and harvest, summer and winter, day and night, cold and heat do not cease. What God has ordained remains, that is to say we are in a fixed position in that sense, so that the service can go on; and the question is whether it is going on, and I believe it is.

S.J.H. You remarked this morning, but did not develop it, that the sun was setting as Jacob took the stone to lie down; but here the sun rose upon him.

J.T. It is the bright side of things. It is what God has under His hand and can use. So if it be a question of the bright side of things, God has that; and if it be night, then God has night, too.

H.N.B. What is involved in the change of name?

J.T. It is a question of what belongs to God, of the rights that belong to God. He has a right to change people's names, and He changes Jacob's

name here. God has rights in love, that He can use in love, whether to distinguish us or otherwise.

S.W. What brings about this spiritual state that is being developed in Jacob? Would it be hearing the specific call of God to get out of the circumstances and affiliations that were holding him and go back to Bethel?

J.T. That comes up later, in chapter 35, but this is the order of his journey. In Genesis 32:1 "Jacob went on his way; and the angels of God met him"; God is approving of the way he is on and these particular circumstances are to bring out his spirituality, that he is capable of being spiritual; he is capable of seeing what promotes spirituality.

J.W.W. Does he set out in that way the capability of doing things for himself now? In chapter 28 he wanted God to do things for him in a rather confused way.

J.T. Yes, and he made vows, resolutions, which is good in a way, but here it is the ability to take on suggestions of spirituality. Then in the next chapter there is the continuation of it in the recognition of Joseph, for the time has come to bring Joseph in. If we go back in the history to when Rachel bore Joseph, Jacob said to his father-in-law, "Send me away", as if something had happened in his life when Joseph was born. Much intervened to interfere with his intention to return, but still the resolution to go was with him after Joseph was born. That is, Joseph has come into the picture so to speak, and he is not to leave it until the end of the book. Whether the Lord will enable us to understand the meaning of Joseph in it all is another matter, but the fact is that he does not leave the position until the end of the book.

J.W.B. In Acts 16 there is reference made to midnight with Paul and Silas, and again there is

reference to midnight in Acts 20. Would it suggest what is coming out in connection with the service at the darkest time?

J.T. There are various references of that kind, especially in Matthew 25 where the virgins are alluded to. And then in Philippi, of which you spoke; see the experience that Paul and Silas had! What men it was making them! How at midnight they were able to sing praises to God and the prisoners were listening to them; not that they were forced to, but their ears were attentive. So we are causing people to notice what we are doing, that we are serving God, that we have intelligence as to the service. The conversion of the jailer is surely an immense thing in its bearing upon the service of God, and especially at that time in Paul's history; because Paul's history then was peculiarly notable in what he was doing, what God was doing through him, and what he was suffering. That is the point in our readings today, the suffering side; and it is seen in what Paul and Silas were enduring.

A.S.B. Earlier in chapter 32, the references to the dawn are not exactly relative to Jacob personally; but in Genesis 32:31 it says, "the sun rose upon him".

J.T. Very good. But at the moment our brother is bringing up something about midnight. How much experience have we of it spiritually? Then there is what may happen to some particular one of us, that the sun is shining on him, that God is distinguishing him. Now who is there of that kind amongst us?

S.McC. In regard to what continues and goes through, you have before alluded to the two lines in Jacob: one in relation to God, and the other in relation to Joseph, typical of Christ. Is the beginning of the line in relation to Joseph, which culminates in the end of Genesis now coming into view?

J.T. That is just what I was thinking. His birth is mentioned earlier, and that when Rachel bore him Jacob said to Laban, "Send me away". He wants to go back to Canaan where his father is; he wants to move in that relation. Isaac has a great place in the earlier chapters, but Joseph comes in here; and in chapter 33 Jacob is noticing Joseph so much that he puts him before his mother. This matter of the Lord's supper, and the ministry on the Lord's day -- that is, the Bible readings we usually have and then the preaching -- well, how much of this is going on, and what results are accruing to us? All this works out in these chapters. That is to say it is a question now of Joseph in chapter 33; he is coming into view and we are to find out what he means, because the history that God gives of Joseph is most remarkable, Every child, you might say, knows it, but then, what do we know? What do we know about Joseph, the firstborn of his mother, the boy of seventeen years, and the man at thirty years of age when he stands before Pharaoh and then becomes lord of all Egypt? You can see what there is for us. Then finally Jacob himself excels Joseph. What are we to learn from that? "I know it", he says to Joseph, "I know it, my son" Genesis 48:19. Joseph thought he knew better than Jacob, but he did not. So that we are coming to persons of value, to values in persons, and we must compare Joseph and Jacob. Both were brought before Pharaoh, and Jacob gives an account of his days; but Joseph had his own place with Pharaoh.

V.C.L. Does not the history of which Jacob speaks to Laban in chapter 31 qualify him as a man of substance? He says, "In the day the heat consumed me, and the frost by night; and my sleep fled from mine eyes" Genesis 31:40. So that when it says in Genesis 32:31, "The sun rose upon him", that other history is in the background.

J.T. Just so; so that we must go back to the beginning of things. It is very important in an inquiry such as we are engaged in now to be able to go back to beginnings of subjects, to see where they fit in. We want particularly to see where Joseph fits in and why he is mentioned before his mother: that is, God is bringing Christ in, in type, so that He might be in our minds.

R.R.T. There is a reversal of the position in Genesis 33:2 and 7. In verse 2 it says, "and Rachel and Joseph hindmost"; then in verse 7, "And lastly Joseph drew near, and Rachel". You are emphasising the thought that Joseph must come first, so that Joseph in verse 7 is coming into his rightful place; Christ is getting His rightful place.

J.T. Quite so. It should help us to see how, in the ministry, Christ comes into view. There ought to be grace in our ministry and in our services, and distinctions. And so the point that one would endeavour to clarify is the place that Christ acquires in all this. Our brother's comment on the midnights helps in view of it, and then this shining on Jacob, as the sun rises on him. We shall see the great place that Joseph acquires personally in the history of the world, that is, the history of Egypt; because it is a question now, not of Christ in relation to Israel, but of Christ among the gentiles. It is Colossians, 'Christ among the gentiles'; that is the position now.

S.McC. You would say that one of the things particularly marking the closing days, especially in relation to the Lord's supper, is the distinguishing of Christ, the way that He has been drawn attention to and given a place in the beginning of the assembly service?

J.T. I think that is a great point; it is what comes out in ministry, and in all our various meetings.

You see how Christ shines. What has happened? Well, Christ has been made much of.

R.W.S. When He calls attention to Himself so tenderly in Revelation 22:16, saying, "I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star", immediately the Spirit comes into it -- the effect of the Lord's own touching service in such an appealing way. I was thinking of how the Spirit and the bride say, "Come".

J.T. So that we have the Spirit and the bride, she who has the nearest place to Deity. The bride is seen as having the nearest place to Deity. She is a creature, but she has the nearest place to Deity, so far as I see. "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come" Revelation 22:17, they say the same thing, showing how in the ministry of the truth the Spirit is acquiring a greater place than He has had. He is acquiring this place and we want to enlarge on it; only we want to be careful that we do not entrench on divine rights. The assembly is, after all, a creature; she is not divine.

S.McC. In all the teaching we have been considering, and are now considering in chapters 32 and 33, nothing is said formally in type as to the Spirit. Yet you would say He is behind and underlying all that is transpiring, would you not?

J.T. I would indeed. The mind is peculiarly impressed with the place the Spirit has in the first chapter of the Bible, how He comes in immediately. The Spirit was hovering over the face of the waters. And then in another passage, "By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens", Job 26:13; and again, "My Spirit shall not always strive with Man" Genesis 6:3. Then again, why should Noah bring out the idea of the dove? And why should the account of the Spirit as a dove be seen in John's gospel and in Luke's gospel, as pointing to the Spirit's relations to Christ? I am saying these things so that the minds of the

brethren might be arrested as to the greatness of the Spirit, and as to whether this greatness has not been somewhat neglected; because after all the Spirit is the Spirit of God. He is God Himself. When we speak to God in worship or in prayer we speak to the Spirit too; I mean to say where the three Persons are involved we speak to the Spirit as well as to the other two divine Persons.

S.McC. The passage in Romans 11:36 would necessarily involve the Spirit in the way you are speaking of Him, would it not? "For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever".

J.T. Quite so. One would like to hear more as to what has come into the minds of the brethren about the place the Spirit has that He has not had before, one of the things that has been brought up is that there is so little said of addressing the Spirit in the Scriptures, whereas the Old Testament says quite a lot about it. It speaks, for instance, about Abraham's servant, the greatest in his house, who is a type of the Spirit of God; he speaks to Rebecca and she speaks to him. Then in the prophets we have several references to the Spirit, He Himself speaking to certain ones; and again, the song in Numbers 21:17, "Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it". That is typically a direct word to the Spirit.

F.K.C. In Ezekiel 37:9 the prophet was to speak to the wind saying, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain".

J.T. The word "wind" or "breath" there is typical of the Spirit of course, and it is spoken to. The difficulty that is still advanced by some is that the Spirit is never spoken to, whereas He is spoken to.

L.E.S. The Spirit speaks in Revelation 14:13 as to those that die in the Lord. It says, "Yea, saith the Spirit", as if He would link Himself with the end of our days as to the conflict.

J.T. Quite so, "for their works follow with them". So that we must not neglect or despise the works of the saints, for the Spirit says that about them.

S.J.H. The servant says to Rebecca in Genesis 24:17, "Let me, I pray thee, sip a little water out of thy pitcher". What is involved in that? I was wondering about the Holy Spirit personally in that way, saying, "Let me … sip". Do you think that in the service we should consider for the Holy Spirit that He may get His portion?

J.T. Quite so; "Give me, I pray thee, to drink", he says, and the word 'sip' is used, as if he would ask her to serve him in a small way; but she serves in a very great way, because the amount of water that ten camels can use is very considerable. But she is equal to that; she can use her pitcher for that purpose, she knows how to use it. It points to the working ability, the power, that is available in the saints here on earth today.

E.A.L. When Rebecca says, "my lord", I think you have said that that is a worshipful use of the word 'lord', that she means it in the sense of worship?

J.T. I would think so. She carried on a conversation with him, too.

S.J.H. It is guarded here in Genesis 32:29 that when Jacob asks the Man His name He says, "How is it that thou askest after my name?" Would Jacob be going a little too far in that?

J.T. There is a guard there as to the liberty we may take with divine Persons. We should be very careful not to exceed the liberty that is given to us.

L.E.S. Would the word in Exodus 23:21 as to the Angel protect the position, where we are told, "My name is in him"?

J.T. That comes very near to the idea of the Spirit, whereas we might think it was just an angel.

R.H.S. Would you say a word as to 2 Corinthians 13:14 where it says "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all"?

J.T. I think the word "communion" there points to a divine Person being active in the sense of the fellowship; it is stressed there that the fellowship is of the Spirit, and that it is to be with the brethren. Of course, we speak of fellowship with one another, but there it is peculiarly that the fellowship of the Holy Spirit is to be with the brethren.

C.A.M. Referring to what you were saying about Numbers 21, do I understand it that in the expression of emotion Godward in a poetic way, we should have each of the divine Persons definitely in our minds?

J.T. Quite so; it says, "To us there is one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ" 1 Corinthians 8:6. That is very definite as to divine Persons. Then elsewhere we get the Spirit alluded to, too, so that the three divine Persons are formally spoken to.

C.A.M. One great matter that seems to have been gained by us all is that the Holy Spirit personally is much more definitely in our minds.

J.T. I think the ground has been laid for it in our conversations and in our services in such a meeting as this; and that greatly helps in the use of the phraseology that brings in the Spirit personally to be addressed, and to be worshipped, and to be prayed to.

C.A.M. Jacob had raised the question, "Tell me, I pray thee, thy name" Genesis 32:29; but he seems to answer it himself in a sense when he says, "For I have seen God face to face" Genesis 32:30. Is it not a fact that in using the name "God", it has become more wonderful to us; since the stressing of the Person of the Spirit, all three divine Persons being included on occasions when that title is used?

J.T. Quite so; I think that helps.

L.E.S. Would the word of Paul in 2 Timothy 1:14 help as to the distinctive place the Spirit has in the ministry? He says, "Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted". Would that suggest addressing the Spirit in relation to the whole scope of the testimony?

J.T. Quite so, in a holy way. The injunction is, "Be ye holy, for I am holy" 1 Peter 1:16; the thought of holiness is required so that we might not become in any way guilty of lightness in referring to the Spirit, but have our minds impregnated with holiness.

P.L. So that we are only to be trusted in addressing Him thus in relation to the place we give Him in our souls. A good deal of question has been raised as to when we should address the Spirit, but do you not think the question of who addresses Him would he a more searching one?

J.T. Quite so, whether there is holiness enough as a background for it.

R.W.S. Should we not also have more joy as we know the Spirit better? The woman in finding the piece of silver in Luke 15:9 says, "Rejoice with me".

J.T. Undoubtedly that allusion is to the Spirit. She searches the house to find the lost piece, and then she asks the neighbours to rejoice with her, for "I have found the piece which I had lost" Luke 15:9. Undoubtedly that is a question of the Spirit in His search for what is lost.

J.S. Would you connect this with the word to the seven assemblies, "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies"? Revelation 2:29.

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. Would you include the thought of the Holy Spirit in Matthew 20:8 where we have, "But when the evening was come, the lord of the vineyard says to his steward, Call the workmen and pay them their

wages"? Is not the Lord the householder there, and does not the steward suggest the Holy Spirit?

J.T. I would say that. And confirmatory of all we are saying, the baptismal formula in the last chapter of Matthew, is to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. It is one Name that we baptise to; the baptismal formula implies that They are all included in the Name.

A.H.P. Would the innkeeper of Luke 10:35 be another type of the Spirit? It says, "And on the morrow as he left, taking out two denarii he gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, Take care of him". I wondered if the innkeeper would suggest the idea that we are cared for by the Spirit?

J.T. Quite so, I believe that is right.

THE PRESENT DISPENSATION AS SET FORTH IN JACOB AND JOSEPH (3)

Genesis 35:1 - 29

J.T. The selections in the book of Genesis to be read at these meetings have in mind the service of God; also the various vicissitudes that God permitted to occur to bring out the peculiar kind of man that Jacob was, at the same time bringing out the basic facts as to him, that he fitted God's purpose of setting forth what is in His mind in the present dispensation. This necessitates peculiarly this chapter. As the brethren will notice, there is in the chapter a certain repetition of what preceded it, but at the same time there is increase in the quality of Jacob himself, spiritual quality, which will be seen in certain facts that we shall note as we proceed. Then the thought is particularly to point out the administrative side which was provided for in his family.

Early in this chapter, as we shall see more fully later, the administrative side is provided for, but there is besides that the idea of the generations of Jacob. Generation is one thing, and spiritual administration is another. The administration in spiritual development that gave rise to the idea of generations in Jacob will be seen later, in chapter 37, in which particular chapter it appears that his generations are confined to Joseph; but then it is in mind that the subject should be resumed in Jacob, and it is resumed in chapter 46. I mention all this so that we should keep the items in our minds and see how administration is provided for in the service of God, also the idea of generation. And then later, so as to fill out the thoughts, we have Joseph's history implementing the history of Jacob in a peculiar

way because it brings out what we see so much in the service of God in our day, the idea of brethren of Christ, as to which we are perhaps somewhat defective; but it is mentioned now so that we should keep it in our minds. Then following upon that there is the idea of calling or occupation, linked on with Jacob himself in the position he is brought into through the instrumentality of Joseph. That is to say, Jacob is brought into prominence. Joseph is already in great prominence; and as regards him the various stages of his life that are mentioned should be noticed: first as to his birth; then as to his generation as representing the generations of Jacob when he is seventeen years of age; then when he is in the employ of Pharaoh, having risen up into such prominence, his age being given us again as thirty years. All that has to do with the service of God, that is, the idea of age, whether in the sense of being old or young.

Then the idea of occupation, what our occupation may be in the service of God and how selections may be made from the whole number in view of occupation and in view of previous experience. Then Jacob himself comes to the fore eventually in view of his age, as an old man, having acquired great experience which is working out in the thought of service, the service of God, especially in worship. The worship of God is most prominent in the end and it is linked up with the age of Jacob, so that we are to keep in our minds that the service of God in the sense of worship depends on experience, and conscious experience, even although there may be defects mentally or physically. Yet the experience is there that serves the purpose of God in His service, as we shall see in the last chapter. I venture to outline what is in mind so that the brethren will have it in their minds and that we all might get help together. Therefore in chapter 35 we are in the

presence of certain things that had happened previously but are now enlarged on and developed, so that we get fuller thoughts and the service of God really set out on its proper level.

S.McC. In view of the dignity that belongs to the service of God as you are referring to it and outlining certain features that stand connected with it, are these matters involving cleansing in the beginning of the chapter very essential with us at the present time?

J.T. I thought of that, because certain things have happened that emphasise it on both sides of the Atlantic and generally. What is in one's mind especially is what has happened in Australia where a great deliverance has come in for the truth, and adjustment too; so that happier conditions have come about and there is more fellowship locally and universally in the truth. Then later in Toronto we have had an extraordinary situation that has involved the need of cleansing; and so it is here that the need of cleansing is referred to. Jacob is to go up to Bethel, as it says: "And God said to Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there, and make there an altar unto the God that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother. And Jacob said to his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and cleanse yourselves, and change your garments; and we will arise, and go up to Bethel; and I will make there an altar to the God that answered me in the day of my distress, and was with me in the way that I went. And they gave to Jacob all the strange gods that were in their hand, and the rings that were in their ears, and Jacob hid them under the terebinth that is by Shechem. And they journeyed; and the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them, and they did not pursue after the sons of Jacob" Genesis 35:1 - 5.

P.L. After the introduction of the thought of the Lord Almighty in the end of 2 Corinthians 6, chapter 7 begins, "Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God's fear" 2 Corinthians 7:1. You spoke of holiness in relation to this matter.

J.T. The epistles to the Corinthians, especially the second, bring out what you say. Certain evil conditions had arisen at Corinth, and the dealing with them, the adjustment as to them was postponed because of the general state of defection of the saints; "having in readiness", Paul says, "to avenge all disobedience when your obedience shall have been fulfilled" 2 Corinthians 10:6. That is to say, special difficulties arise and the adjustment of them becomes difficult because of the general state of the saints; so that the settlement of the evil conditions at Corinth had to be postponed because of the general conditions that were in the city. But Paul was in readiness to deal with them, they were not to be ignored. All these matters have to be dealt with, otherwise God will not be with us.

Ques Does cleansing begin in our households?

J.T. Clearly. The conditions that are spoken of in the earlier chapters, extending back in Jacob's life, had to be dealt with, most serious conditions, fornication on the one hand and murder on the other; terrible conditions, yet God did not give up Jacob. He would go with him and cleanse him, and He did cleanse him.

J.L.P. Why is God reminding Jacob at this particular point of the matter of fleeing from the face of Esau his brother?

J.T. Because it was an unbrotherly condition that had arisen. Jacob was at fault as to it, but then Esau was too; he was worldly. Jacob was the man that God had in mind, in whom He would work out His thoughts, and He never gives up His thoughts.

But Esau was a profane man. Jacob was not a profane man. Where there is a condition of profanity there must be adjustment in the relations that exist, even though they exist between brothers and sisters, or partners in business; whatever it be, there must be adjustment if God is to go on with us.

L.E.S. In the process of becoming spiritual, does it involve having respect for the brotherly covenant, right brotherly relations?

J.T. Quite so; God takes pleasure in right brotherly relations. We can see that in Cain and Abel at the beginning and all down the line to us. We see it especially in these two men, Jacob and Esau.

S.McC. It says in Genesis 35:2, "cleanse yourselves, and change your garments". In going through this searching process called for in the word of Jacob, it would not only involve cleansing ourselves and being right basically, but that externally we are different. Would it not mean, that in the changing of the garments you would look for a difference in what the garments would suggest, habits and associations and the like?

J.T. The facts would show what these external things were. We have God intervening, that is the first point to get before us in all these matters. God intervenes and He will carry the thing through to adjustment if we let Him, as in Australia, and here, too, in Toronto; and in other instances that one could mention. God intervenes; that is the great hope and consolation that we have, that He is faithful: "God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord", 1 Corinthians 1:9. God is faithful, and that is where the faithfulness of God is seen, and He has called us into the fellowship of His Son. So that here we have God coming in. In 1 Corinthians the need for God coming in is seen peculiarly in the

very first chapter. There we are given an outline of the truth which you might say is objective, that is to say, things in Corinthians were viewed as objectively right; but presently the apostle insists on the saints being united as to local matters. The first thing dealt with is that they are to be united.

C.A.M. Speaking of 1 Corinthians, chapter 15 brings in both burial and the rising again. Would you say that that would be in line with the fact that Jacob was arising and coming into the good of burial? The triumph of 1 Corinthians 15 would be necessary before entering upon the good of 2 Corinthians that we were referring to. After all the inroads of the enemy at Corinth throughout the epistle in one way and another, chapter 15 would show that we are to live in the good of a resurrection world. I was wondering why the matter of burial comes so much into this chapter?

J.T. Burial does come into this chapter and also into 1 Corinthians 15. There it is enlarged on as to how we die and are buried and what we become as raised in power. The great power of resurrection is what marks those who are raised; they are raised in power.

T.U. Why did Jacob hide these things, the strange gods and the rings, instead of burying them, a matter of which so much is made in this chapter? It says that he "hid them under the terebinth that is by Shechem" Genesis 35:4.

J.T. It says, "And they gave to Jacob all the strange gods that were in their hand, and the rings that were in their ears" -- these alluding to embellishment -- "and Jacob hid them under the terebinth that is by Shechem" Genesis 35:4. Now your question is why these things should be hidden and not buried. The point is, I think, what is effective for the purpose in question, and it brings out that things were dealt with in a true root sense, and this is a point of

great importance in these difficult matters, that things should be really dealt with.

C.E.B. Why is it that God does not give instructions to Jacob as to this matter? It seems as though He would look for instincts that would know the requirements of Bethel.

J.T. The requirements of Bethel just so far; it is to be the house of God and is to be enlarged on.

C.E.B. Does God look for spiritual instincts amongst the saints to deal with these things?

J.T. He does. It is the idea here of how these instincts are seen in Jacob. There is much that preceded all this, but these matters now in question are in our minds, in order that we should be corrected and more developed in the truth of the service of God, in view of the coming of the Lord, which is now very imminent as we understand.

S.J.H. What form would strange gods take today?

J.T. It says, for instance, that covetousness is idolatry. It is a question of what is so extremely bad that it has to be dealt with, and the facts would show that the things were dealt with basically, in principle; so that in any matter that has arisen we can go on with the truth if things are dealt with basically.

P.L. Verse 5 says, "And they journeyed". Would that be distinct from earlier journeyings where it says Jacob journeyed -- that now a collective judgment of the evil has been reached and there can be a forward movement collectively into the mind of God?

J.T. Very good. You might say that is just what it is: "they journeyed" and God was with them, and "the terror of God was upon the cities that were round about" Genesis 35:5. In spite of the enemy God is acting so that a way through is made for them. A way is made for us though trade unionism is seeking to block it, and it is a question as to whether we are

dealing with the matter and ready to face what is involved in it.

P.L. If things are settled with us inwardly in regard of holiness could we not count on this terror of God upon our enemies outwardly?

J.T. If God did that for them, why should we not count upon it?

P.L. I mean if things were right within in holiness, then we could count more on God to come in for us outwardly.

J.T. Quite so; and if He does not come in for us externally at once, why not continue to count on Him to do so? Our prayer meetings involve that.

P.L. If our relations are right together we can get His ear as to external opposition.

J.T. Even if He does not act at once against external opposition -- and He has done so before -- why should we not count on it in our prayer meetings that God will ultimately act in regard to external matters? The point is to go on and have God with us.

P.L. It is the cities, the entrenched positions of the enemy here; God's terror was upon them.

J.T. Why can we not count on that? It was a real matter, they needed it. Their behaviour was dreadful and God knew it, and Jacob was brought into it and was directing that they should cleanse themselves. But what is more, God is acting of Himself, that is, in the way of terror against the enemy. Why should we not count on that, too? I certainly count on it.

E.A.L. "Selfwill is as iniquity and idolatry" 1 Samuel 15:23. We might think we have a right to belong to a union, but if we do so that is the character of thing that marks us.

J.T. The point I think for us now would be what we may count on God to do for us in any emergency. That is what I think we should have in our

minds as we proceed The passage indicates that God can be counted on for certain things and we should include all these things in our prayers.

A.T.D. Jacob refers in verse 3 to "the God that answered me in the day of my distress" Genesis 35:3. He was speaking from experience, was he not?

J.T. Quite so. Therefore we can continue to ask God about things and experience would teach us we can count on Him for certain things.

W.H.C. This man Jacob is a man that names things. He named Bethel, Peniel, Allon-bachuth and Mahanaim.

J.T. These are important matters; we should know what names to give, whether it be to persons or things. That began with Adam; he was deputed by God to name the creatures that God had made, and whatever names he gave, God accepted them, showing how God is counting on the intelligence of His people in naming things or persons.

S.J.H. Paul named a man a "wicked person" 1 Corinthians 5:13.

J.T. Quite so. We have in 1 Corinthians 5 an incestuous person, and we have a similar thing here in verse 22: "And it came to pass when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah, his father's concubine" Genesis 35:22. It was the same sort of thing, showing that the working of the enemy amongst the people of God in the earlier days was even as it is now, and we are to deal with such persons according to our experience and according to the light we have from God in the Scriptures.

E.G.McA. When Jacob first came to Bethel he erected a pillar, but in this chapter, verse 7, he erects an altar. In verse 14 it is again a pillar. What is the spiritual significance of a pillar and of an altar?

J.T. The altar is a symbol of sacrifice that costs us something. Then we have in verse 14 the drink offering which was poured upon the pillar.

E.G.McA. Would the drink offering on the pillar be something for God especially?

J.T. Quite so. There was increase in Jacob's experience and ability, and God is counting on him to be more of a worshipper than he was, that his worship, his service, should be greatly increased. That is something we should all notice, as to whether our service to God is increasing in value and quality. I think what is said of Jacob here would show that his service Godward was increasing in value so that we have not only the altar but the pillar and the drink offering and the oil. The drink offering, I think, would point to something God is especially pleased with, a reconciliatory thought, that God is pleased with us.

A.S.B. Is there a link between this section and Acts 5:12 in relation to Ananias and Sapphira? It says, "and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch, but of the rest durst no man join them, but the people magnified them". Peter says in Acts 5:29, "God must be obeyed rather than men", showing that the service of God is in mind.

J.T. Quite so. The servants are not afraid, as the Lord said in Matthew 10:28, "Be not afraid of those who kill the body". There is no more they can do, He says, but I will tell you whom to be afraid of -- Fear God. We are to be afraid of God in that sense. I think in that section in the Acts we have certain things happening which greatly enhance the service, and the brethren are prepared to suffer; and the people began to fear because God was amongst them. In that sense, if they did not fear God they would suffer, something would happen governmentally.

T.U. In Genesis 35:8 it says that Rebecca's nurse died. I wondered, linking it with verse 9 where God appeared to Jacob, if it is essential that we learn to stand on our own feet and God will support us in it?

J.T. Very good. She is buried under the oak at Allon-bachuth, showing she was a lovable person in Jacob's family. She represents a sister in the fellowship, one lovable; the Lord has taken her and we feel it.

R.H. What would you include in the term, 'the service of God', in connection with Jacob?

J.T. We may, of course, bring in classifications. Take the first day of the week for instance, it is a day that God has honoured, the day in which He raised Christ from among the dead. We start on the first day of the week with the Lord's supper. That calls for priestly ability and sacrifice. Then we have the ministry of the word, whatever form it may take; that again is a question of the service of God and of how the word of God is applied. On the first day of the week it may come in at the Lord's supper. Then we have Bible readings on the first day of the week and gift is made room for in Bible readings, the gifts God uses to open up the truth to us and to apply it. Then there is a preaching of the gospel on the first day of the week; this also, of course, requires ability or power. I just mention all these to give the thought of the service of God and what it implies. I am not sure if you are agreeing with that?

R.H. I thought we were accustomed to limiting it to the thought of worship, but I gather you have more than that in mind?

J.T. The service of God includes all I have mentioned. Take what Paul mentioned as to his service, I think we get all these things mentioned in it.

A.S.B. Would it help us to see that what is liberated in verse 4 of our chapter is the hand and the ear? They are things most important in relation to the service of God, our hands and our ears; our activities and what we hear in the ministry, what we hear in relation to the Spirit speaking.

J.T. Very good; it says, "they gave to Jacob all the strange gods that were in their hand, and the rings that were in their ears" Genesis 35:4. Your point is that our hands and our ears are released for the service of God. That would imply that our hands and our ears are become holy and we are judging ourselves.

S.W. We understand that our households stand in close relation to the service of God. Now in verse 6 it says, "And Jacob came to Luz, which is in the land of Canaan, that is, Bethel, he and all the people that were with him" Genesis 35:6. Some of us have a difficulty in bringing all that we have with us, all the people, or all our children that are with us in our houses.

J.T. What is the difficulty in your house?

S.W. Well, quite a number of us have failed in getting the children to come with us. They have made confessions quite a number of years ago, but do not seem to follow on. They love the Lord but do not want to sever their links with the world.

J.T. It would show that the children are a real difficulty amongst us and the matter of their training. The mothers especially should see to it that they are trained properly, that they are brought up properly and trained in right feelings and principles and not allowed to have things that damage, such as are mentioned in Genesis 35:4: "they gave to Jacob all the strange gods that were in their hand, and the rings that were in their ears". We are not to cater to the children in this sort of thing but we are to think of God and His rights. In relation to the things too that are being taught in the schools, we are to be alert so that the children shall be kept holy and pure.

S.J.H. In that connection what is the thought of a 'nurse', verse 8?

J.T. Paul was a nurse in a spiritual sense. It is a question as to how sisters especially may be used,

and of course any of us, in nursing the youth, bringing them up in the truth. We have such allusions in Ephesians. There are none in Romans so far as I remember, but Ephesians mentions the households particularly.

R.W.T. "And they gave to Jacob" -- would that indicate a recognition on the part of the children or those in the household of authority in the head of the house?

J.T. I would say so. The persons yielded these things up and all would point to holiness promoted.

R.H. Would the thought of the nurse link with nourishment, the nurture and admonition of the Lord?

J.T. Quite so. 1 Peter 2:2 speaks of the pure mental milk of the word, mental milk meaning that the minds of the youth and of the saints generally are to be nourished, brought up in right principles and right feelings.

E.G.McA. Why is it Rebecca's nurse? Why do we go back to Rebecca?

J.T. Because she had a distinguished place in the household, I would think. Think of who Rebecca was! She was Isaac's wife, a matter which has a great place in the whole of chapter 24 of this book; it is almost all touching on Rebecca.

C.H.H. I was wondering about Galatians: it speaks there of being under guardians and stewards until the time fixed by the father. Does that correspond with the nurse?

J.T. The allusion in Galatians is not to the children of God's people but to Israel when they were in their infantile condition. That would mean that they were not in the full liberty of christianity that we have; we are dealing with the full thought of christianity and the liberty that belongs to it.

A.L. In Genesis 24 they sent away Rebecca their sister and her nurse and Abraham's servant. The

nurse seems to represent an element that has not independency but has usefulness for the testimony.

J.T. Very good, because she represents something in the family of God, really. That is the right way to look at it. Paul alludes to nursing in his own ministry.

T.U. Is there a period when the nurse is not needed? I was thinking of what followed in connection with Jacob having his name changed, and all that was said about his being fruitful and so on. Is there a period in the spiritual history of the saints when the nurse is no longer needed?

J.T. It is doubtful if you can specify it in that way, for the nurse is always needed, really. If older ones have advanced beyond the necessity for a nurse the younger ones have not. It is a general thought in the family of God. It says that every family in the heavens and on the earth is named of the Father: "the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named", Ephesians 3:14,15. We are entitled to speak of families in that way. It is a very wide thought, not simply the families of the saints, but the family of God and a provision made in it for them.

R.W.S. It says in Genesis 35:9, "And God appeared to Jacob again". Is that something added to what we had yesterday as to the appearing at Peniel?

J.T. I think that God is very liberal, speaking reverently, in the idea of appearing, for in the early days of the people of God the appearings were necessary so that God should be apprehended; and I think that is the idea here. God is to be apprehended and He is apprehended in the appearings He makes among His people; and what can be more precious than God making Himself known in the sense of appearing or manifesting Himself? We have the word 'manifest' in John's gospel, but here it is 'appear'. Paul also speaks of appearings.

A.S.B. Is there something too in the fact that it does not say 'Jehovah' but it says 'God' in verse 1 and again in verses 9 and 10? There seems to be an intimacy with divine Persons in that way.

J.T. God is prominent. In Genesis 1 we have 'God', it is 'Elohim' in the sense of supremacy; and immediately in chapter 2 we have a prefix to that, that is 'Jehovah', meaning that God is coming into more liberality and graciousness toward His people. That is what Genesis 2 really implies. It is remarkable how it appears there, while here it is not 'Jehovah', it is 'God'. It is more the God of the first chapter, 'Elohim' meaning God in supremacy; for God must be supreme and that is what is in mind here.

Rem. In Genesis 35:7 Jacob "called the place El-beth-el" meaning 'God of the house of God', the supremacy of God.

J.T. There are successive ideas that Jacob had in his mind; in Genesis 33:20 he sets up an altar and calls it El-Elohe-Israel, God being the God of Israel; in verse 7 of this chapter he called the place El-beth-el, God of the house of God. But the further or enlarged thought in verse 15 is that it is the house of God; not connected with Israel but just the house of God. It is a question of God.

S.W. Would greater spirituality lead to greater cumulative knowledge? Jacob's experience with God led to greater cumulative knowledge so that he can name things in this way.

J.T. That is right. Now we might proceed to read further in the passage; Genesis 35:9 continues, "And God appeared to Jacob again after he had come from Padan-Aram, and blessed him. And God said to him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not henceforth be called Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name. And he called his name Israel. And God said to him, I am the Almighty God: be fruitful and multiply;

a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee; and kings shall come out of thy loins. And the land that I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land" Genesis 35:9 - 12. There is something here which is to be noted particularly in contrast to chapter 28; there God was at the top of the ladder, but now He has come down to where Jacob is. So it says, "And God went up from him in the place where he had talked with him. And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he had talked with him, a pillar of stone, and poured on it a drink offering, and poured oil on it. And Jacob called the name of the place where God had talked with him, Beth-el" Genesis 35:13 - 15 -- a fuller thought as to Bethel, and we might say God coming down in great familiarity to Jacob, and Jacob responding in the sense of service -- "and Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he had talked with him, a pillar of stone, and poured on it a drink offering, and poured oil on it". So that Jacob is now increasing in efficiency in God's service. That is one of the points we are to get hold of clearly in what we still have to say.

S.McC. Would the suggestion of pouring, both in the drink offering and in the oil, bring before us a certain spiritual fluidity in Jacob himself?

J.T. Very good; less niggardliness as to the tenth. There was nothing small now as to what he would give to Jehovah, he poured it out. The word 'poured' is used in the New Testament too; the Spirit being "poured out" abundantly upon us is a wonderful thought.

R.H. Why is it that God talked "with" him (verse 13)?

J.T. It is familiarity. You might say it is holy converse. In Acts 20 there are two words used: one refers to discourse, that is to say, a brother speaking on the principle of a discourse; the other is on the

principle of conversation even as we are talking here this afternoon. We are dealing now on the principle of conversation, which is very happy, and God has made the ministry through conversation very precious to us in these recent times.

J.K. In Genesis 35:3 Jacob speaks of "the God that answered me in the day of my distress". Now it is a question of God talking with him. That is something nearer, is it not, after all that had taken place?

J.T. It is very beautiful to see the whole passage as opening up the development in Jacob of spirituality, leading up to the service of God in the full sense of it.

A.S.B. Does God going up from him indicate trustworthiness in Jacob now?

J.T. I think he can be left; he does not have to be watched. It is a poor thing if we have to be watched by the brethren, or by God Himself as being distrustful of us. So it says of Lazarus when he was raised, "Loose him and let him go", John 11:44. You do not have to watch him, whereas the young man in Nain was delivered to his mother. He could not be trusted. Very often the state of things among the saints is such that the young people cannot be trusted.

J.R.H. Does this show that we are entitled to look for greater intelligence and appreciation of God with recovered persons where there has been real self-judgment?

J.T. I think that is right, if a person has been really restored. Take the incestuous man we have already mentioned in 1 Corinthians: he was restored more quickly than Paul expected and apparently Paul had full confidence in him; the second letter would prove that Paul had full confidence in him. The Corinthians were rather hesitant about restoring him fully.

J.R.H. You spoke of the brethren watching persons; evidently Paul was not in a position to watch that person.

J.T. That may be, but God will watch. God is faithful, but eldership is needed and nursing is needed; eldership particularly, for elders were appointed in every assembly and every city. It is a question of the government of God and things being watched and cared for.

S.McC. In regard to what you were saying as to the man in 2 Corinthians, where self-judgment is present in persons it is important that the grace of the dispensation should be made way for, is it not?

J.T. 'The grace of the dispensation', that is a fine phrase. Tell us more about it.

S.McC. The danger is sometimes, as you have said, of making the penalty fit the crime instead of seeing that we are dealing with persons, and that the grace of the dispensation enters into that as self-judgment is present.

J.T. Quite so. Now to proceed with the chapter, we have next the death of Rachel. These occurrences are very distressing because they often create voids. We have had it that Rebecca's nurse died, hut now Rachel also dies, Jacob's beloved wife, first loved but second received; but she died. Therefore there would be a void. And then there is the naming of the child. It says, "The midwife said to her, Fear not; for this also is a son for thee. And it came to pass as her soul was departing" -- this is a most touching matter -- "her soul was departing -- for she died --" a most solemn thing that comes home to all of us in some way or another. It is a very important thing to keep before us, so it says, "that she called his name Benoni" Genesis 35:17,18. Well, we have to see what this means; it is 'Son of my affliction'; he was the son of her affliction. And it adds further,

"but his father called him Benjamin", that is to say, the 'Son of the right hand'. So we are here dealing with very important matters amongst the people of God. The mother calls him Benoni, but the father calls him Benjamin. He becomes one of the tribes with such a name as Benjamin, and much is made of Benjamin afterward in the Scriptures. Then we have further, "And Jacob erected a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave to this day" Genesis 35:20. We get it alluded to in the first book of Samuel and it comes into our ministry meetings and prophetic meetings where we get instruction in that particular chapter.

V.C.L. Would you say one word more as to Jacob naming Benjamin, because is this not the first son that he named, and does it represent something arrived at in his soul with God?

J.T. Particularly expressed in the word "Benjamin", son of his father's right hand. There is this to be added, that with the birth of Benjamin the twelve sons of Jacob are already in view; that is to say, the administrative side in the service of God is provided for in the twelve sons of Jacob.

P.L. The elders were brought together at Miletus in a chapter that treats of the counsels of God and the service of God, and the assembly which He purchased with the blood of His own. Does the gathering together of the elders and the charge given to them there by Paul suggest that the administrative side is to be taken care of?

J.T. That chapter, Acts 20, is as you know very often spoken of. It is a love chapter: it begins with love, the middle of it is love and the end of it is love. It is all a love chapter, one that should be well looked into by us in view of the service of God.

THE PRESENT DISPENSATION AS SET FORTH IN JACOB AND JOSEPH (4)

Genesis 37:2; Genesis 45:1 - 4; Genesis 46:1 - 8; Genesis 47:1 - 10

J.T. It is to be observed that in pursuing these scriptures our object is not exactly prophetic; but as following the truth, we are to see how the Spirit of God would use the Scriptures at the moment. He is behind all the Scriptures, not only their literality but also the ministry arising from them; the Spirit of God is the Author of all and He would fill our minds with what is needed at this juncture in the assembly's history, so that we might become more spiritual and more intelligent. It is thought that in the end we shall see in chapter 48 how the thought of intelligence centres in Jacob himself, for he leads in it; and obviously the point would be that it is to lead in each of us so that we should be intelligent, as we have in 1 Corinthians 10:15, "I speak as to intelligent persons". We are here from a good many different parts, inclusive of the sisters and inclusive of the young, and the thought is to bring about spiritual intelligence, and the study of the Scriptures is to that end.

The first scripture read in chapter 37 calls attention to the generations of Jacob. We have already alluded to the sons of Jacob in chapter 35 as being twelve in number, to suggest to us the thought of administration, a leading thought throughout this dispensation. Then chapter 46 is to show that the generations of Jacob went down into Egypt, their names being all given; whereas the only name given in the first mention of Jacob's generations in chapter 37 is Joseph: "These are the generations of Jacob. Joseph" Genesis 37:2; as if the Spirit of God would fill us with Christ from that point of view, But as we proceed to the idea of generations in chapter 46 we

become enlarged in it, because it has a great place in Scripture. It may be remarked to some who may not have observed it that although we have generations spoken of throughout the book, Abraham is not included in the idea; his generations are not given to us, though Jacob's are and others too. But Abraham is in the mind of the Spirit as the heavenly man, and it is hoped that we shall close in our readings with the thought of the heavenly man, the thought of heavenly-mindedness, because we are going to heaven, God has destined this for us, and it is a question of being ready for it. The first consideration therefore will be the question of generations, the generations of Jacob, and how Joseph has the first place. The others are not mentioned properly until we come to chapter 46.

R.H. Why is the name Jacob retained here when he has been re-named Israel? Have you any thought on that?

J.T. I think it is to retain the name in a patriarchal sense. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are the leading patriarchs and they were in the mind of God for certain purposes; and although Jacob's name is changed, and so is Abraham's, yet with Jacob the primary name is retained. The prophets show that the primary name is retained for special purposes that include the idea of what is patriarchal, beginning with Abraham. God gives us names and He has a right to change them for whatever purposes He will.

L.E.S. Have you something in your mind as to generations? The term refers in the second chapter of Genesis to the idea of origin; would this link with the idea of spirituality that enters into the generative side?

J.T. Origin is the significance of the word in the second chapter, but another meaning of the word is 'a circle'. It is like a family circle in chapter 6, for

instance, Noah's family; but origin enters into it and clearly the basic thought is that; that is to say how the origin of a person or a group or a family or even a nation may be traced through in the ways of God

L.E.S. I was wondering if you linked it with the spiritual bearing of what is before us, the very texture of the constitution going back to the generative idea?

J.T. Quite so, I think that is well put. And the thought is attached not only to persons, but to things; if we look at the Genesis 2:1 - 3 I think we shall see that. It says first that "The heavens and the earth and all their host were finished. And God had finished on the seventh day his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and hallowed it, because that on it he rested from all his work which God had created in making it". And then "These are the histories of the heavens and the earth" Genesis 2:4: this is the word that we are dealing with; the brethren will notice that the word 'histories' is literally 'generations' -- see note in the margin: literally 'generations': the word implies 'origin' and occurs in chapters 5:1; 6:9; 10:1, 32; 11:10 and soon. So that the passage runs thus, having in mind not only persons but things: "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth, when they were created, in the day that Jehovah Elohim made earth and heavens, and every shrub of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew", -- note that all is in the abstract here -- "for Jehovah Elohim had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground". So that the idea of generations in the second chapter of Genesis mainly includes the idea of things; but we get the persons later, not only under the meaning

of the word as here, that is, origin, but under the meaning of a circle in relation to a family, such as Noah's family. It is well to look into these terms, each of us by himself, and get the light and the instruction that is available for us, that God is thinking not only of persons in what He has created and what He has made, but He is thinking of things. Now when we come down to Genesis 37:2 we read, "These are the generations of Jacob", but they mention only Joseph as if the Spirit of God would say to us that He is thinking of Christ in this word; He is not only thinking of all the children of Jacob, but He is thinking particularly of Christ, and therefore it is only Joseph that is mentioned.

Ques. Is Joseph the spiritual link in the generations?

J.T. He is; it is good to mention it in that way because he implements all that is said as to Jacob, working it out in a spiritual sense; and in a family sense and in the sense of love too; because Jacob is marked by love at the end, peculiarly so, in the way in which he speaks of his sons as we shall see later.

T.U. Why is Joseph in this particular passage linked with the idea of service?

J.T. Well, he was a devoted son. It is said that "Joseph, being seventeen years old, fed the flock with his brethren", Genesis 37:2. Notice the age that is mentioned, seventeen years old; it is to call attention to youthfulness, but intelligent youthfulness and usefulness too. So it is said that he fed the flock with his brethren, that is he joined in in feeding the flock, because according to what we read they were shepherds; their calling was the calling of shepherds. That is a word that has great meaning as we come to the New Testament because Christ is the Shepherd, the great Shepherd of the sheep; and He says, "Feed my sheep" John 21:17, "Feed my lambs" John 21:15.

A.S.B. The footnote says, 'tending'. Would the principle of care enter into that in a young man?

J.T. Very good, and how ready we ought to be to follow in such care, to do anything. We have for instance in Acts 5 where Ananias and Sapphira suffered death in the judicial sense, that the young men carried them out, the young men. We find the same idea in Exodus, that the priests of God at that time were young men, showing how young men can perform important services. Our brother having called attention to it, it is well to notice that in chapter 37 Joseph is tending the flock. He might have been caring for himself, but he is caring for others. "Joseph, being seventeen years old, fed the flock with his brethren; and he was doing service with the sons of Bilhah, and with the sons of Zilpah, his father's wives. And Joseph brought to his father an evil report of them" Genesis 37:2, meaning that he was already discerning what was in the family in these men. There was evil discourse (see note), and Joseph took notice of it and brought word to his father; a very important service for young men to do if necessary, to report things, as we get in 1 Corinthians 1 where Paul says that there were those who had reported certain things; it was important in the administration of the assembly that these reports should be given.

S.McC. The report refers to evil discourses; I suppose it would mean that they were saying wrong things. Is that not important with us today, that there should be concern as to what enters into discourse?

J.T. Especially with young people when they get together, segregating themselves from the elder brethren; our sisters too often talk about things in which they do not help each other.

J.W.B. Do you see this feature of shepherding with David in such a passage as Psalm 78:70,71, where it says, "He chose David his servant, and took him

from the sheepfolds: from following the suckling-ewes, he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance"?

J.T. And so in the valley of Elah when the great battle with the giant was to be fought, his elder brother chided him: "With whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness?" 1 Samuel 17:28. But David had left them with the keeper; they were not left to wander about and do what they wished to, We have already had our minds called to the youth; and as regards the young children here in these meetings it has been requested that their parents should look after them, a very important matter, that they should look after them.

J.R.H. Is there not a spiritual comeliness marking Joseph's movements in this chapter? He is moving with his brethren, though in difficult circumstances, yet there is no natural forwardness with him, the forwardness that is natural to youth; he is moving in a comely way.

J.T. Quite so, a very seemly way, he is not like many young boys, because really he is only a boy's age, seventeen. That is the first age we are given of him. He is doing service with others, but then he is recognising the evil discourse of his brothers -- or rather, his half-brothers -- and he tells Jacob about it, so that a real service is being rendered in that sense.

P.L. And thus would you say he adds in weight what he lacks in years?

J.T. Just so. He was magnificently marked by purity later when he was attacked on moral lines; he was marked by purity and integrity.

R.H.S. Paul's word to Timothy, "Let no one despise thy youth" 1 Timothy 4:12, is a great challenge, is it not, in view of the fact that what Joseph does here brings him into reproach, his brethren envying him?

J.T. Just so; and that exhortation does not mean that the brethren must not despise your youth; it

means you take care that it is not to be despised, that your conduct will not lead to its being despised; because it is a question of our conduct, how we behave ourselves.

R.W.T. Is that borne out in the note below? It says he "was doing service with the sons of Bilhah" Genesis 37:2, and the note as to that is that 'he was as a youth with'; that would indicate he was in proper recognition of his place, although they were not right with God.

J.T. Yes; it was orderly and proper that he should be with his brethren because they were related to him, but still he did not overlook that they had evil discourse.

S.J.H. Would he be more characterised by the feeding that is mentioned first, feeding the flock? The evil report is the second matter. He would not be characterised by that.

J.T. You mean he was doing something profitable, that he was feeding the flock; and that is what the Lord commits to Peter; "Feed my lambs", He says, and "Shepherd my sheep"; and then, "Feed my sheep". That is the prime thought in caring for sheep, to feed them. But now in chapter 46 the generations of Jacob come before us as including all twelve sons. And so it is said that Israel took his journey and all that he had. Now it is a question of Israel going to Egypt, that is to say, in type Christ is now among the gentiles; the type would carry that thought in it, that Christ is now among the gentiles. That is where His place is, and the gospel is being carried on, the ministry of the assembly is being carried on there. So that Jacob took his journey with all that he had and came to Beer-sheba, and then it says, "And he offered sacrifices to the God of his father Isaac. And God spoke to Israel in the visions of the night and said, Jacob, Jacob! And he said, Here am I. And he said, I am God,

the God of thy father: fear not to go down to Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation. I will go down with thee to Egypt, and I will also certainly bring thee up; and Joseph shall put his hand on thine eyes. And Jacob rose up from Beersheba; and the sons of Israel carried Jacob their father, and their little ones, and their wives, on the waggons that Pharaoh had sent to carry him" Genesis 46:1 - 5. So that he has his generations in his heart, but he is under divine guidance as to the position he is to occupy. It is a changed position, that is to say, he is to go into Egypt, but God will go with him; so that we have a lot of instruction now opened up before us as to proceedings with Jacob in relation to his generations.

J.R.H. God seems to assure Jacob in a very touching way as to His own support and help, but then He also brings in this touch as to Joseph. What would you say about that, his putting his hand upon Jacob's eyes?

J.T. I think it is to bring out the link of affection in the family, which is a fine thought to bear in mind in our readings, this question of love amongst us. Joseph was leading in it, but Jacob was not without it himself. It was a question of tender affection between the father and the son, so that as we remarked in the beginning, what is set out in Joseph is to implement all the principles that are set out in Jacob. What would the history be without Joseph? He is to fill the thing out in that the thought of God is to be fully in it, the Father and the Son and the Spirit, the three divine Persons are to be in it.

A.S.B. Is that why in the previous chapter it says that Joseph sent waggons and that the spirit of Jacob their father revived when he saw the waggons?

J.T. Very good; and there are his sons, too, the feelings of the sons coming into it; so that now

things are becoming right all round in the family of Jacob, and Joseph is the great leading spirit in the whole matter.

R.H. Speaking about Joseph filling out the matter in connection with the thought of the Father and the Son in the completion of the dispensation, would it be right to bring in John's ministry in that connection?

J.T. It would; we cannot get through without bringing in John's ministry. It is intended to fill out in love the whole dispensation. It came in late and John is not slow to tell us the volume that there is in it, plenty of it; that is, if all the things of Christ were written down the world itself would not contain them, a remarkable thing, showing the voluminous character of the ministry in John's gospel as attributed to Christ. And so it is that we begin in that gospel with the statement that "In him was life, and the life was the light of men" John 1:4; Christ was life and that life was the light of men. So running through the gospel of John the life is prominent, but it is life as the light of men; not of angels but of men, that men are before God.

R.H. Is the thought of generations prominent in that regard?

J.T. I should think so; it is a question of Christ, what He is; and the service of Christ, what He does and says, the volume of it. The idea of generation is in it; and therefore we have here that Jacob offered sacrifices to the God of his father Isaac. It is not the God of Abraham here; it is Isaac, that is, Christ risen; the great point of resurrection is stressed in it, but in order to bring out the fulness of the power of God on behalf of men. So it is not Abraham here; it is his father Isaac, which is very remarkable because it is a question of Christ, not in heaven, but in resurrection. We have to distinguish Christ in resurrection. It also involves personal power in ministry, not simply heavenly power but power in

the idea of resurrection. "How say some among you that there is not a resurrection of those that are dead?" 1 Corinthians 15:12 the apostle asks. The great point is resurrection because it is a question of power exercised on behalf of God in the ministry.

S.McC. In that relation would there be a suggestion in Beer-sheba of what is connected with the Spirit, 'the well of the oath'? Does not Paul stress both these sides in Corinth, the resurrection and the power connected with it, and the ministry in the demonstration and power of the Spirit? Would not 'the well of the oath' remind us of divine faithfulness in that relation?

J.T. It would. So that Isaac is connected with the resurrection simply, and with power in that sense; but in chapter 22 he does not go down with Abraham to Beer-sheba, Beer-sheba representing the faithfulness of God, 'the well of the oath'. It is a question of faithfulness, but faithfulness supported by the Spirit, when Abraham goes down and his young men; but Isaac is not said to have gone down after he was figuratively put to death and raised from the dead. That is to say, he is a heavenly man but he is a heavenly man in relation to the testimony; whereas Abraham is the heavenly man pure and simple.

S.McC. And is it instructive in the chapter you have referred to, that light as to the assembly comes in in that position?

J.T. That is where Rebecca's name is given, her family. What I am saying about Abraham and Isaac as regards the testimony is important, whether it be the heavenly or the earthly side; the great thought in Isaac is the testimony, but it is a question of power, youthful power.

S.McC. I think what you refer to is especially important in our position today in the final phase of

the testimony, that there should be power in the ministry in the way in which you are indicating it.

J.T. Not simply what you may learn from the books, though of course we should learn from books, but it is a question of the works of Christ as written, things that are written in the sense of the works of Christ, and that all is in power. The world itself would not contain the books which could be written, it says.

J.R.H. Would you open up a little more the distinction between the purely heavenly man and the heavenly man in relation to testimony?

J.T. Well, John helps us on all these thoughts. In John 3:13 it speaks of "the Son of man who is in heaven", not who shall be or was, but "who is in heaven". It is a suggestion of the place of Christ as the heavenly Man; but then He is a heavenly Man also in power here on earth, raising the dead and the like, as in the case of Lazarus, the evidence of love; He loved Lazarus and Mary and Martha, it was a question of love. He worked in love but there was power there.

J.R.H. Is it something like what we have in Romans 1:4, "marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead"?

J.T. Quite so.

P.L. Would the two thoughts be seen in John 20, the heavenly position in the thought "I ascend", and then the heavenly power in testimony in the word, "I … send"?

J.T. Just so; so John's gospel serves us in all these phases of the truth that extend away back for maybe fifty years, when there was a question raised as to whether Christ comes amongst us, comes in, as we now know well He does come. But at that time it was alleged by certain that He was here all the time, which robs the truth of its freshness. The Lord comes, He says, "I am coming to you" John 14:18. That

was negated by certain things that were said in those days, but the Lord has checked all that and now the brethren talk about it freely. On the first day of the week the Lord comes to us and John 20 brings out the whole thought. He says to Mary, "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" John 20:17. That is what the Lord said through Mary, and that is to give character to the ministry, the ministry of the first day of the week particularly, that the Lord comes to us and He comes as He pleases; not at stated times but as He pleases. This matter has given character to the ministry during the past fifty years to say the least, the freshness of the incoming of Christ according to John 14:18, "I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you". He does come, and chapter 20 brings in the great fact of it on the Lord's day; not simply that He would say, I am coming to you, but, I am ascending, "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" John 20:17. While this matter has been a peculiar feature of the ministry of the truth during the past fifty years at least, it was well held before that; but a great deal has been made of it since then and God has greatly supported it.

S.W. Under what circumstances does Christ come to us on the Lord's day morning? Is it when the conditions are congenial?

J.T. It is a question of the conditions; not that He would not come of Himself, He has a right to come, but at the same time conditions cannot be ignored. What I am saying now as to Genesis 46 points to the service as Jacob had it. It says, "Israel took his journey with all that he had, and came to Beer-sheba" Genesis 46:1. It has already been pointed out that Beer-sheba refers to the well of the oath, the question of covenant as it were, God committing Himself to something implying the Spirit, that there

is power in what is being done. So it says that Israel offered sacrifices to the God of his father Isaac; that is to say it is Christ in resurrection, not in heaven exactly but in resurrection, that there is power here available in the ministry. So he did not offer sacrifices to the God of Abraham, for it is a question of Isaac, Christ in resurrection power.

F.K.C. Would that link on with 2 Corinthians 3, the ministry of the Spirit subsisting in glory?

J.T. That is very good, and "the Lord is the Spirit"; that is another point that we have often touched on lately, that the Spirit is implied in the title 'Lord', the Lord is viewed as the Spirit there, and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

S.McC. Is that what you had in mind in referring at Auckland to the interchangeability of divine names?

J.T. Just so, and I think we might have a little word on that, that the Father is represented by the Son at times, and the Son by the Spirit; but the three names are brought together in Matthew 28 in the baptismal formula, showing that They act together in the assembly.

S.McC. So we are tested in discernment as to the Person that may be before us at any given time, are we not?

J.T. Yes; it is a question of whether we can discern the Persons, whether we can discern the Father, or the Son, or the Spirit. It is a very great question, one would hardly undertake to say that one could answer it; I doubt that anyone of us here would undertake to say that he could tell if it is the Father, or the Son, or the Spirit, but the facts are there that They are to be discerned. It is for the brethren to be free about this, because it is a time of education, and we ought to he free to speak; not to speak too much to be brief and to the point, but at the same time to get at the truth, especially as

to divine Persons; so that the Spirit, now that He has acquired His own place amongst us, may retain it, that it may become enlarged with us.

J.McK. Does Acts 15:28 help in what you are saying, in the great matter of consideration amongst the brethren at Jerusalem concerning the question at Antioch? It says, "For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us", as if they could discern the Holy Spirit's presence with them in regard to this matter.

J.T. I am glad you mentioned that, "It has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us".

E.A.L. I would like to ask a question about John 20:22 and the Holy Spirit's setting there. The Lord said to the disciples, "Receive the Holy Spirit", and then Thomas at the end of that section gives the Lord's dual title, my Lord and my God. I am asking for help, because others have been speaking about it. Is there a dual emphasis on the Lord's divinity and the presence of the Spirit in that particular setting?

J.T. Well, that is a matter to be considered too. It is said that the Spirit's day is in John's gospel. John's gospel enlarges on the Spirit's day. So it says in John 7:39, "The Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified". But then the Spirit was, but He had not yet come. It is a question of the manner in which He is come, that He is come in relation to the glorification of Christ. We have to understand therefore the activities of the Spirit as seen in John, that He is come in relation to the glorification of Christ, and He is here to stay. He does not come and go, He has come to stay. "He abides with you, and shall be in you", the Lord says John 14:17.

R.H. Why is it that John generally in alluding to the Spirit uses the personal pronoun, for instance,

in chapters 14, 15 and 16 of John the Lord alludes to the Spirit personally as "He", while Paul uses the impersonal pronoun, in Romans 8, for instance, "the Spirit itself"?

J.T. The neuter, you mean. Quite so. They are both right, of course; it is a question of language. If the neuter is used it may refer to the character of the Holy Spirit in His activities; but if we speak of a Person, then we must be careful to realise that He is equal to the Father, He is one of three Persons, all equal, only that in the economy two of them have taken a subservient place for the sake of the truth.

S.McC. Have you any thought as to why in 1 Corinthians 8 where the economy is in mind the Spirit is not referred to, whereas in Ephesians 4 where we get the economy again there is a much fuller expression as to it, bringing in the Spirit too?

J.T. That is a question of very great importance. I would think the apostle is taking into account the state of things at Corinth, and the question of persons making much of themselves. "Yet to us", he says, "there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" 1 Corinthians 8:6. I think the apostle just leaves the thing here, but he is referring to certain persons who thought they knew. Will you please read the passage?

S.McC. "But if anyone love God, he is known of him: concerning then the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God save one. For and if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, (as there are gods many, and lords many) yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. But knowledge is not in all" 1 Corinthians 8:3 - 7. And he says in

the first verse, "for we all have knowledge; knowledge puffs up, but love edifies" 1 Corinthians 8:1.

J.T. That is what I was thinking, that the apostle decided he would just leave it with the Father and the Son as to this question of knowledge; he just confines himself to that, leaving the Spirit out formally, we might say; not that he would not bring Him in in due time, but he just leaves the Spirit out for the point in question.

S.McC. The second verse would help in relation to what you have been saying, "If anyone thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know it" 1 Corinthians 8:2.

J.T. Just so, I think that was the point in mind. If he ought to know it, he has to come to the Spirit to know it. The Spirit reveals things to us.

P.L. I wondered whether the fact that he does bring in the Spirit so freely in 2 Corinthians, particularly chapter 3, indicates that there was now a better state in which the thought of the Spirit could be introduced?

J.T. Quite so; in that chapter it says, "the Lord is the Spirit"; it is a very remarkable thing, you hardly get it elsewhere. It should be made much of, I am sure, that where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty. We might say the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father too, but it emphasises that where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty, that is to say, He makes way for things. He makes way for things in that He knows everything at first hand here below, because He is here all the time.

J.W. Does Paul not give preference to the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:4 - 6? He says. "there are distinctions of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are distinctions of services, and the same Lord; and there are distinctions of operations, but the same God who operates all things in all", The Spirit comes first in that connection.

J.T. Very good; then again in the same passage, "no one can say, Lord Jesus, unless in the power of the Holy Spirit" 1 Corinthians 12:3.

S.McC. In regard to this matter of the Spirit as to which the Lord seems to be helping us, do you not think that a good deal depends upon the state amongst us as to our arrival at it? It is not just something that we can take on academically, but state is needed amongst the saints.

J.T. Quite so; I believe that is what the apostle has in mind in not mentioning the Spirit in chapter 8. We cannot really say properly that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, showing the place He has and how universal it is as bearing on everything.

R.W.T. Does that indicate that we need the help of one divine Person in relation to another? We need the help of the Spirit in relation to the Father and the Lord, and we need the help of divine Persons in relation to the Spirit in our address to the Spirit.

J.T. Just so. Someone has just said that They serve one another, divine Persons serve each other in that sense.

R.W.S. Is what has been said about state confirmed in Acts 13 where the Holy Spirit spoke as they were serving the Lord in Antioch? Does that confirm the need of state in relation to addressing and worshipping and understanding Him? As the Lord says, "ye know him". The state was such that the Spirit was free.

J.T. Yes; so that where the gifts are to be sent out, that is Paul and Barnabas, the Spirit sends them out.

P.L. And it is in Philippians where the atmosphere among the saints is so spiritual, and not exactly in a doctrinal epistle, that the deity of the Lord and the glory of His descent are emphasised.

J.T. Just so, that He is on equality with God.

P.L. Yes, suggesting thus that whether it be in relation to the Lord or to the Spirit the truth of the Person of each One in its unfolding depends upon a spiritual atmosphere.

J.T. Yes, quite so. Now to return to our passage: all this matter came up in connection with chapter 46, because of the service Jacob would render to God, that is, that he offered sacrifices to the God of his father Isaac. So that the service of God went on in that sense, but it went on in relation to Isaac, not Abraham, the meaning of that being that it is a question of Christ risen, the power of Christ in resurrection. We had in mind that chapter 46 brings out the generations of Jacob; but we must touch on chapter 45 to bring out the question of Joseph in his love for his brethren. The Lord's day is a great day for the ministry of Christ among His brethren; it brings in the assembly, of course, as the bride; but we must not pass by Joseph from the standpoint that he made himself known to his brethren in the most remarkable way. It is said that "he cried, Put every man out from me! And no man stood with him when Joseph made himself known to his brethren" Genesis 45:1. That is to say we are now in the presence of Christ and His brethren, and Christ making Himself known to us. And so it goes on, "And he raised his voice in weeping" Genesis 45:2, that is to say the deep feeling that enters into this matter on the first day of the week. He raises his voice in weeping, and the Egyptians heard, and the house of Pharaoh heard, and Joseph said to his brethren, "I am Joseph", as if the Lord would say that to us. "Does my father yet live?" Genesis 45:3. Divine Persons serve each other, as we have already said. "His brethren could not answer him, for they were troubled at his presence. And Joseph said to his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they

came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. And now, be not grieved, and he not angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither, for God sent me before you to preserve life", Genesis 45:3 - 5. That is the point that is brought out here. One would link on this passage as to the love between Christ and the brethren and His making Himself known to us, with the matter of occupation; and with Jacob himself representing age and experience as having capacity to bless; because that is the point it brings out as to him. It says, "Jacob blessed Pharaoh, and went out from Pharaoh" Genesis 47:7, that is to say the power of blessing is in Jacob. How much it suggests of all that is connected with our attitude towards the world, the governments of the world, and the power of blessing on the part of the brethren! It is the power of blessing, not of cursing or avenging. "Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves" Romans 12:19. It is the power of blessing on the part of the brethren; even towards the leading people of the world. And then the idea of occupation, "What is your occupation?" Genesis 47:3. Pharaoh brings that up. Of course this matter of occupation brings in the question of trade unionism, and of wages; only that is not mentioned here, it is the occupation only. The question of wages came in earlier; Jacob's wages had been changed ten times, he said. He was making much of that, and of course that would make way for trade unionism. But now it is not a question of that, it is a question of blessing, and the power the brethren, however few or many, have for blessing in the midst of the world.

E.A.L. It is remarkable that God said to Abraham, to whom I think you have referred as the primary patriarch, that in him all the families of the earth should be blessed. The distinction with Abraham would be that he was told to go out from his land, and from his kindred, and from his father's

house; but with Isaac and Jacob the promise that was made to Abraham was carried on through the generation side. They are distinct from Abraham in that sense; Abraham moved under God's command, as it were.

J.T. So that God called Abraham alone and blessed him, and I think that John's gospel is the power for blessing; it is a question of life, the energy of life amongst the saints, power to bless and not to curse. That would greatly augment what there is amongst us as to love amongst ourselves. "By this shall all know", says the Lord, "that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves" John 13:35.

R.H. Would John 20 show the link between this thought of the brethren of Christ and the matter of occupation in relation to blessing?

J.T. I think the matter of occupation must come up. In chapter 47 it is not a question of wages. 1 Corinthians speaks of wages; Paul said he had a right to take certain things, but he did not do it. He did not use the right he had. So that we are not concerned about wages, we are concerned about love, about loving one another and doing what is needed for one another.

C.A.M. Would you say in connection with the matter of Joseph and the brethren here that the light as to this had come in a long time before in Joseph's dreams; but that much had to be gone through in order to reach these holy feelings and the necessary adjustments? Is not that what is going on today, the adjustments amongst the brethren?

J.T. That is what is going on exactly, and the aim of these meetings is to bring us to that; it is what this dispensation is to finish with, that the Lord is going to finish up the dispensation in love. The old and the young are to be seen together, and in the energy of life.

J.McK. I would just like to ask before you close as to verse 4 of chapter 47. It says, "To sojourn in the land are we come; for there is no pasture for the sheep that thy servants have, for the famine is grievous in the land of Canaan; and now, we pray thee, let thy servants dwelt in the land of Goshen" Genesis 47:4. Is there a suggestion there of hardship amongst the brethren and the liberty to appeal to the authorities in regard to this great matter of hardship with trade unionism?

J.T. Quite so. There is latitude, because the whole land of Egypt was before them, Pharaoh said. It is remarkable with what magnanimity Pharaoh refers to it: "Pharaoh spoke to Joseph, saying, Thy father and thy brethren are come to thee. The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land settle thy father and thy brethren: let them dwell in the land of Goshen. And if thou knowest men of activity among them, then set them as overseers of cattle over what I have" Genesis 47:5,6. I am endeavouring to bring out the suggestion of Pharaoh's liberality, not only toward Joseph but toward Jacob, his father, and how the land of Egypt was before them. In like manner God is making way for us, making way for the brethren in all the different countries, especially in the British Empire; and here in America, what provision there is! As we see in Egypt, the famine had come but there was plenty of yield under Joseph; Joseph is over all the land of Egypt and there is a great yield, great productiveness from the land. So God is setting everything before His people, that is, God has them in mind in all that is going on; and therefore our prayers should take character from this fact even in regard to the land and industrialism and the like, that God should be brought into all these things. God is thinking of His people in all that is happening, nothing is happening without Him; so that we need not fear, because God is

thinking of us and acting for us even in regard of the land and its productivity, both in Canada and the United States as well as elsewhere.

J.R.H. I think you had in mind to say something about the selection of these five men to set out the case before Pharaoh.

J.T. Well, it was just to show that there is such a thing as selection, that things are not left in common, that selection is a principle with God; He has a right to it and He asserts that right. So Joseph selects five of his brethren to go to Pharaoh; and then the whole situation evidently entered into Pharaoh's mind, because he said that if there were any able for it they should be made overseers of his cattle. That shows how God is caring for His people through the authorities. It is said that the powers that be are ordained of God, and God works according to that principle; He asserts that principle.

W.McK. In regard to what you have said as to God making way for His people, would the word "settle" in this section suggest that we may expect God to make a permanent way open for us in these matters?

J.T. "Settle thy father and thy brethren" Genesis 47:6, yes, quite so; only we do not want to stay here, we are just here provisionally; but still, God is with us in it and it is so asserted throughout these scriptures.

Rem. So it says in Revelation that the woman fled into the wilderness where she had there a place prepared for her.

J.T. Very good, a certain place prepared of God.

S.W. Would you say in regard to the last section read in relation to worship that there must be a certain point of spirituality reached before we are able to bless in this way? I thought of the apostle speaking in connection with the cup of blessing which we bless.

J.T. "Which we bless", quite so. God is crediting us with the power to bless in that sense, to speak well of it; that is what is meant, that we speak well of the cup. I mean we speak well of the Lord's supper, we make much of it.

THE PRESENT DISPENSATION AS SET FORTH IN JACOB AND JOSEPH (5)

Genesis 48:1 - 22

J.T. In these last days we are to plentifully declare things as they are amongst us; things should be accepted and stated just as they are, if any emergency arises. In Genesis 49:1 it says, "Jacob called his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, and I will tell you what will befall you at the end of days"; that is to say, Jacob was concerned about his sons at the end of the days and what should befall them. It is not like the blessings at the end of Deuteronomy where we have no error mentioned or criticism made as to them; here there is much said to indicate that in Jacob's time things were not right. And it has to be said that things are not right now, in many cases. It is well just to notice that in chapter 49 things are stated just as they are, the condition of things in Jacob's family is stated as it actually is; and of course that would humble us at the present time. I thought it well to make those remarks so that we might have this thought before us.

I think it will be recognised that we have rightly come to chapter 48 as converging on Jacob and Joseph. What is recorded deals with Jacob and Joseph. In the next chapter we have Joseph again, of course, but in connection with all the tribes and they are all blessed: In spite of the discrepancies in the histories of the family, they were all blessed which is a matter that should encourage us as to recovery; that where there is any evidence of genuine work we may count on ultimate blessing, ultimate recovery. And this should enlarge us as regards recoveries, because while Jacob has to record much that was distressing in the history of the tribes, yet they are all blessed, each of them had a blessing.

As we have been saying together in prayer, it is a time of blessing. It is perhaps wise to call attention to the fact that God is, as it were, more liberal than we are apt to think about persons who have been misled and have strayed from the path, so that if we find there is a real basic work in them we may have be sure that God will not leave it unfinished. We should be very gracious with our brethren in this respect.

But now as to chapter 48, it is perhaps necessary to say that whilst it deals with Jacob and Joseph, for Joseph has a great place in it, yet it is not exactly a question of the father and the son in the typical sense. Joseph is the son, of course, but his remarks are not right in regard to Ephraim and Manasseh; whereas Jacob is right and is able to correct his son. So that here Joseph is really the type more of persons; not of the Son of God in this chapter, but of one of ourselves, one of the brethren. Yet we cannot ignore the fact that he has a great place with that Jacob and a great place with Pharaoh and in the whole chapter. At the same time we may say he is just a believer, and therefore we may take courage as to believers in general, though at the same time we have to watch, especially if we are young, not to assume too much because of our earlier history, but to go by facts; as Job said, "how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is" Job 26:3. Let us have it as it is, at the same time taking into account the grace of God and His readiness to restore and to correct what may be wrong.

R.H. In relation to Genesis 49, would it involve in cases of recovery, that nothing is overlooked, but that the matter is approached from the standpoint of blessing?

J.T. That is important. Our care meetings are, as I believe, divinely arranged. It is very doubtful whether the actual way in which we do things now

is patterned on what they did in the beginning, but at the same time I believe God has ordered the principle of care meetings. The word 'care' in 1 Timothy 3:5 calls attention to that: "how shall he take care of the assembly of God?" It is a great matter to have a part in taking care of the assembly of God. And so whenever any matter that is not altogether clear arises involving a brother or a sister, it is well to investigate. Investigation is a right principle, and if there be anything not clear the thing is to investigate; get all the facts together and give them full scope, as we have already referred to in the book of Job, "plentifully declare the thing as it is". Heaven is looking on things as they are, and it is for us to look on them that way too, and to make full allowance wherever needed.

E.A.L. Would you say that the difficulty with Joseph here is that he was not adjusted by the ministry? It says in the opening of the chapter that he took his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, with him; but when his father speaks about the sons, he reverses the order and makes it Ephraim and Manasseh.

J.T. Because the father is speaking from the divine standpoint. The chapter is really, you might say, a father's chapter; and if we enlarge the word 'father', we might be encouraged to say it is the Father as God. In these closing days God has had a great place with us, and it is as Father; and the Lord Jesus is, of course, the Son according to John's gospel, and operates in relation to the Father. But we have been saying that Joseph is rather a type here of a believer than of the Son of God; and as you said, he places Manasseh before Ephraim, whereas Jacob had in his mind that Ephraim would be before Manasseh. That is a question of divine prerogative. It is a question of divine right really that God can place people as He wishes.

E.A.L. I had in mind that when Joseph heard, "Thy father is sick", he took with him his two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. That is the way it reads in the opening verse of the chapter. But then when his father speaks he reverses the order, and puts the younger son first, as if Joseph should have been adjusted by that word of ministry.

J.T. Quite so; that is to say Jacob's mind was fixed; he knew. He says, "I know, my son, I know" Genesis 48:19. Sometimes old brethren are apt to be disparaged because they are not clear in their minds; but it is not always so because God may help them more than we think, and therefore we get the truth, perhaps unexpectedly. So it is with Jacob here that throughout he was right in his mind. He was blind too, and undoubtedly the weight of years was upon him; but at the same time there was power in him. One would like to call attention to the fact that Israel strengthened himself, meaning that there is power in a real believer in whom the Spirit of God has place to strengthen himself; as it is said of David, he encouraged himself in the Lord his God. That is a possibility that is with every believer.

S.McC. It is an interesting thing that that name, Israel, should be used here. He got that name from God, not from men. We are in the presence of one who has got something from God, arc we not? "Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed" Genesis 48:2.

J.T. Very good. We feel how in keeping it is with the whole chapter, with the whole book indeed; we are now dealing with the Spirit of God and with His work in believers, especially in old believers, and we see that what may come out in an emergency may be beyond what we expect. Not beyond what we should expect, maybe, for if we know God we shall expect what is of God to be brought out in the believer.

A.S.B. Is there a link in your mind with Matthew's gospel, the Lord, the Legislator, on the mount in chapter 5? The chapter commences on the principle of blessing, and in that book and even in that chapter we have practical principles to work out amongst us, with the idea of blessing in mind.

J.T. I think that is very good; as you say, with the idea of blessing in mind. I do not know how many times persons are blessed in that chapter; and we are told what they are blessed for, why they are blessed. Have you that in mind?

A.S.B. Exactly, and one of the blessings is "Blessed the pure in heart, for they shall see God" Matthew 5:8. And again, "Blessed the peace-makers, for they shall be called sons of God" Matthew 5:9.

J.T. Go right on. I think there are about nine of them.

A.S.B. "Blessed they who are persecuted on account of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed are ye when they may reproach and persecute you, and say every wicked thing against you, lying, for my sake. Rejoice and exult, for your reward is great in the heavens; for thus have they persecuted the prophets who were before you" Matthew 5:10 - 12.

J.T. I am glad you brought that up, because in the way it is set it is peculiar to Matthew, and it brings out what we have remarked, the idea of latent power in the believer. The gospel of Matthew implies that; it is a remarkable gospel, as we have often seen, and it involves this question of latent power as needed in the assembly gospel -- the power of recovery. In this gospel, too, we are told that forgiveness will be granted in every matter except as regards the sin against the Holy Spirit. That is a thing of which I would think the brethren ought to take notice particularly, that sin against the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven, either in this age or in

that which is to come. God would make clear that any speaking against the Holy Spirit is not to be forgiven; He warns us against it, that we are not to slight the Spirit of God in His service.

S.McC. In speaking to Joseph here in verse 3, Jacob uses the name of power; he says, "The Almighty God appeared to me at Luz" Genesis 48:3. Power is in his mind in regard to God.

J.T. We are told by Jehovah that He appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in that relation, the relation of almightiness; and it is a thing to be taken in as regards difficulties that we have to contend with, that God can do everything. One has thought of it in regard to the book of Job. Job went through the discipline that God ordered for him, but he came out of it, and he said in coming out of it, "I know that thou canst do everything" Job 42:2. That is a great comfort. "I know that thou canst do everything", he says to Jehovah.

L.E.S. Referring again to what you have said as to the Spirit, would it indicate the distinctive place that the Spirit has in the economy and especially towards the end of the dispensation?

J.T. It is very remarkable that it is at the end of the dispensation, because the brethren so far as I can recall, contented themselves until recently with the fact that the Spirit was not addressed, and that He was lowly and had taken a lowly place in the service. But we have come now to see that the Spirit is addressed, and that He is addressed in the Old Testament. Some indeed still say that it is only in the Old Testament; but in saying that, they may be unconsciously saying that the Old Testament is not inspired; whereas the Old Testament is called Scripture, and the Lord says of it that the Scripture cannot be broken. The Lord is asserting that the Scripture cannot be broken; so that the Old Testament

can certainly be employed in regard to the Spirit and His services.

L.E.S. Is it not instructive the distinctive place the Spirit has in the book of Ezekiel, where at the end of the days He is so intimately brought in in relation to His own work? We had the reference to the thought of the brethren this morning, and as to the remnant being the whole idea, and it is said in Ezekiel 11:15, "it is thy brethren, … and all the house of Israel, the whole of it". And then in the same chapter it says, "The Spirit lifted me up, and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea".

J.T. Yes, enlarge on that.

L.E.S. I was thinking of the distinctive place the Spirit has; and how the whole position is covered and brought into living, spiritual sensibilities and affections by the presence and power of the Spirit of God over against all that is spurious and corrupt.

J.T. And then taking the scripture as it is in the book of Genesis, the Spirit of God is mentioned in chapter 1 as hovering over the face of the waters; and then again in Genesis 6:3, "My spirit shall not always plead with man … but his days shall be a hundred and twenty years". Then following on those two references the Spirit of God proceeds to tell us that Noah sent out a dove, as if to lay the basis for the reference to the dove in the gospel of John. Noah sent out a dove to discover as to the drying up of the waters, and the dove returned to him; the reference is made three times. It is very significant; it is the basis really for the gospel of John. John alludes to the Spirit in the form of a dove, and Luke does too. We have alluded to all this before but I think it is well to do so again to see how this matter stands in the Scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament.

L.E.S. I would like to repeat that scripture in Ezekiel 11:24,25 a little more fully: "And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity; and the vision that I had seen went up from me. And I spoke unto them of the captivity all the things that Jehovah had shewn me". Would that not be linking on with your thought as to John?

J.T. Quite so. Another thing in Ezekiel -- in chapter 8 there is an allusion to his being taken by his hair. It is a question of the power that there was in the prophet himself, that he is lifted up. Perhaps you have noticed that?

L.E.S. I had been thinking a little about that very chapter, as to the bearing of it in the full light of resurrection and ascension, and then the Spirit being here to fill out the whole position in the way of power.

J.T. So that brings us back to what we have been speaking of. It is said in Genesis 48:2 that "Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed". It alludes to power in the believer. And then it says, "Jacob said to Joseph, The Almighty God appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me, and he said to me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a company of peoples; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession. And now thy two sons, who were born to thee in the land of Egypt before I came to thee into Egypt, shall be mine: Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon" Genesis 48:3 - 5. Well now, what arises in the mind is the right that Jacob asserts to take over these two sons of Joseph. They are to be his, and if we bring in the thought of sonship as we are accustomed to speak of it, then the Father has rights. He is bringing many sons to glory; and it causes one to consider what there is currently in the service of

God, what God is doing in bringing many sons to glory, not children, but sons.

J.P. Would it be that they have received the Spirit of adoption at this point?

J.T. It could imply that, that they are to be of the family of Jacob. They are actually of the family of Joseph, but Jacob is asserting a right that he has to these two boys that were born in Egypt.

C.A.M. Would it be right to connect this with such a scripture as that in Ephesians 1:17,19 where the apostle prays that "the Father of glory, would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of him"; and it goes on, "according to the working of the might of his strength", and the glorious matter with regard to the inheritance?

J.T. This alludes really to Ephesians. It is a question of the power that Ephesians contemplates, and the bearing of it on the family of God, for it is said in Ephesians 3:15, "of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named". Who can question therefore the rights that God has in regard to His sons, and that the way should be made for every bit of God's work so that the idea of sonship should come into evidence? Because God is set for that in these last moments, He is set for sonship.

J.R.H. Does that set out "the good pleasure of his will"?

J.T. That is right, that is the word, "the good pleasure of his will". What thoughts you have in the epistle to the Ephesians as to the will of God and all that enters into it!

C.A.M. Do you think the fact that it was two sons, Ephraim meaning 'double fruitfulness', would seem to intensify this thought of sonship that you are stressing?

J.T. Yes, and that they were born in Egypt. It says, "And now thy two sons, who were born to thee in the land of Egypt before I came to thee into

Egypt, shall be mine: Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon", Genesis 48:5. That is to say, God as among the gentiles has sons, and we are all gentiles. There are hardly any Jews being taken up now, although there are some, thank God; our brother here and others here, too, that one knows of, have been taken up. At the same time the general thought is that it is a gentile position, the work of God is proceeding among the gentiles. And how great a fact it is that God is asserting His rights to make sons among the gentiles!

E.A.L. Do you think that the grandfather here as claiming these two sons of Joseph to be his, would link on with what we have in Genesis 28:12,13? It says, "And behold, angels of God ascended and descended upon it. And behold, Jehovah stood above it. And he said, I am Jehovah, the God of Abraham, thy father, and the God of Isaac". That is, Abraham his grandfather is put forward there as his father.

J.T. Abraham is the father of us all. What a great thought that is! We are living among the gentiles, but he is the father of us all.

S.McC. In regard to divine Persons, we speak of the Father having sons, and the Lord having the assembly femininely. Would it be right to think of the 'body' as presenting a peculiar and distinctive sphere for the Spirit's satisfaction connected with His activities?

J.T. I think that is very good, the peculiar sphere of the Spirit. In Hebrews 2 the Father is said to be bringing many sons to glory; God is bringing many sons to glory; but that is in the same chapter in which the Lord Jesus says, "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises" Hebrews 2:12. So it shows what there is at the present time for us in the region of divine operations. The Father is bringing sons to glory; it is not to set them up on the earth here, or to make anything of them on the earth. He is

bringing them to glory. And then on the other hand the Lord is singing to God in the midst of the assembly: "In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises" Hebrews 2:12. And again it is said that "he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one; for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren" Hebrews 2:11. So these are a great group of thoughts and they link on with Genesis 45, and now with chapter 48, because we are now dealing with the Father, that is, with Jacob; whereas Joseph was in a great position, in the foreground, in chapter 45.

R.B.P. I am not quite clear about what was said as to the body being a sphere in which the Spirit would be responded to. I would like to hear a little more of that.

S.McC. The thought was that, the Holy Spirit not being incarnate, the body constituted a distinctive and special sphere for His operations and activities and that He is honoured in that sphere. That is all that one had in mind.

J.T. Just so, and of course it is the sphere that God is occupied with now; it is the only sphere. He is not occupied with Israel now or the nations as such, He is occupied with the assembly, and therefore it is the sphere of the divine operations for the moment.

S.McC. And would it not be right to think that in eternity the Spirit, while pervading all there, will always be in this distinctive sphere, in the body, in this great vessel and family -- the assembly?

J.T. And so "the Spirit and the bride say, Come" Revelation 22:17. The bride is that family, she is the assembly, she comes nearest to Deity as has often been said, which is a most remarkable thing. "The Spirit and the bride say, Come", in the same word you might say, the same breath.

Well, now, we may proceed with our chapter to get the place that Jacob has and Joseph. Joseph is

really viewed as a believer, but you might say an erring believer; still, he is a corrected one; undoubtedly the passage implies that he is corrected. I will read on a little further; Jacob says in verse 3, "The Almighty God appeared to me at Luz … and he said to me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a company of peoples; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession. And now thy two sons, who were born to thee in the land of Egypt before I came to thee into Egypt, shall be mine: Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon. And thy family which thou hast begotten after them shall be thine: they shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance. And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan, on the way, when there was yet a certain distance to come to Ephrath; and I buried her there on the way to Ephrath, that is, Bethlehem" Genesis 48:3 - 7. We had that yesterday, a very touching thing; Jacob brings it back now as he is about to die, showing how the wife retains her place in the heart of the husband. And it says further, "And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these? And Joseph said to his father, They are my sons" Genesis 48:8,9. Well, here is a question: Joseph is assuming that they are his sons, whereas in Jacob's mind they are his sons. So that now it is a question as to where our thoughts are, because we are the living ones; Jacob and Joseph and Abraham are all gone; we are the living ones, the ones that God is going on with. It is a question now of our minds and thoughts, and where we are on the first day of the week when we meet together. So here, Israel beheld Joseph's sons; it is a question of sons, not children. And he said, "Who are these? And Joseph said to his father, They are my sons, whom God has given me here. And he said, Bring them, I

pray thee, to me, that I may bless them" Genesis 48:8,9. Now we are coming to the real substantial thought of the moment, dear brethren, the time of blessing, and our qualifications to bless too. Perhaps the very least of us has power to bless; and so it says, "Bless and curse not" Romans 12:14. "And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, to me, that I may bless them. But the eyes of Israel were heavy from age: he could not see", meaning that his old age was telling upon him; but still he has power in his soul. "And he brought them nearer to him; and he kissed them and embraced them" Genesis 48:9,10; so that we are dealing now with the most precious thoughts, dear brethren, as to the Father and as to ourselves as His sons. These are things that are current every week in the year in connection with the Lord's supper and in connection with the ministry; and the question is how affected we are as to them. We are reminded of Luke 15, the power of kissing in a holy sense; "and he embraced them. And Israel said to Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face; and behold, God has let me see also thy seed. And Joseph brought them out from his knees, and bowed down with his face to the earth. And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near to him" Genesis 48:10 - 13. One is trying to bring forward the facts of the case here spiritually, that we are dealing with what God is now going on with in His service, with what is toward Himself. Here we have two young men and their father, and it is a question of God's operations and what He has in mind. Jacob had in his mind that these two young men were his sons and that one of them was going to be put before the other. That implied the counsels of God, that God is altering things according to His own counsels; not according to nature, but according to His own counsels. But Joseph had a different mind shown in

his placing of the sons, as we have just read. And now notice what Israel did: "But Israel stretched out his right hand and laid it on Ephraim's head -- now he was the younger" Genesis 48:14. We had an allusion to this earlier, that Benjamin was the son of his right hand. And now the Spirit of God is telling us that God is doing what He wills, what His pleasure is, and we are not to interfere with it. There are great things being done, and it is for us to be in accord with what is being done so that we are not interfering, because Joseph is actually interfering with a great matter here, and we do not want to be found doing that. Jacob is putting his right hand on Ephraim's head, and Joseph must not interfere with that; and how many interferences there may be at the present time in what God is doing! Then it says, "guiding his hands intelligently". We are at the time now when we should look for intelligence, especially among the old brethren; not that one is saying this because he is old, but it is a thing to be aspired to, to have intelligence when we are old, and to know what to do so as not to interfere with the work of God in any sense; because He is bringing many sons to glory, and we must not interfere with that. We must see to it that the work proceeds.

S.McC. Joseph. I suppose, spoke too fast and said too much, a weakness with those of us who are younger, do you not think?

J.T. I should not like to say much on those lines; but certainly young brothers are inclined to think beyond their measure.

N.B. Is it of any consequence to note that 'Israel' is stressed in this section?

J.T. We have already noted that, that it is not simply Jacob, but Israel, the new name that God gave him earlier.

N.B. In the next chapter Jacob and Israel are linked together in three different verses.

J.T. That is interesting. When the name of Israel was given to him it was said that he had power with God and with men. Well, now, he needs power with Joseph, because Joseph is interfering, and we are apt to interfere with the work of God.

C.H.H. Do these two sons represent the assembly, with no past guilty history, inasmuch as they do not appear in the blessings of Jacob, but they do appear in the blessings of Moses?

J.T. It is a question of what is meant by "past history". If you mean the history of the assembly in the counsel of God, in that way they do, the position of these two young men is being fixed according to God.

E.G.McA. Is there any significance in the fact that he says, "Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine, as Reuben and Simeon"? Genesis 48:5. Why did he select those two sons?

J.T. I think it is just to show that they were equal in the family, they were brought into the assembly as in the family of Jacob as if they were of the twelve sons of Jacob. But they are an addition. What God is doing now is working among the gentiles; He is working in relation to sonship, and He must not be limited as to what He is doing. Here the twelve sons of Jacob are being enlarged on, and these two are put into the family as if they were the same as those that had been in it from the outset. We must not limit what God is doing; let it go forward -- the great thought of sonship, for God is bringing many sons. We cannot say how many; who can say how many? But He is bringing them to glory.

J.S. Is it blessing according to selection?

J.T. Clearly the principle of selection is in it, but we cannot say how many there will be. It is a great matter we are dealing with.

E.G.McA. Would this have any connection with God's inheritance in the saints, in Ephesians?

J.T. I should think it would, the greatness of God's inheritance in the saints. Think of what the saints are! Would you kindly read the passage as it stands?

E.G.McA. "So that ye should know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints", Ephesians 1:18.

J.T. We certainly must not limit that! Think of the vastness of God's thoughts, "his inheritance in the saints"! And He is bringing many sons to glory. Who can say how many or how few? Who can deny His right to do what He is doing? It is our blessing. Our blessing is bound up with our being with God in what He is doing, as it is said, "What hath God wrought!" Numbers 23:23 The time has come for that, to wonder at what God hath wrought.

H.B. So that it says Joseph "brought them nearer", and he "brought them near" to Jacob. Would you link that with the scripture in Hebrews 2:10, "bringing many sons to glory"?

J.T. Just so. Think of what our portion is! "Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him" 1 Corinthians 2:9. Think of the greatness of being amongst those!

R.W.S. You were reading, and you got down to verse 14, 1 think, as to Jacob guiding his hands intelligently. As you were reading down it was very encouraging to me. I wondered if you were going on any further where he says, "I know, my son, I know" Genesis 48:19.

J.T. I am going on further. Beginning with verse 14 it says, "But Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it on Ephraim's head -- now he was the younger -- and his left hand on Manasseh's head" Genesis 48:14; so that Jacob is doing the very opposite to what

Joseph wishes him to do; and that, dear brethren, is something that I think we do well to take notice of, whether we are interfering with what God is doing, whether we are having any prospect or motive or outlook that will eventually interfere with what God is doing; Jacob is quite equal to it here, so it says, "guiding his hands intelligently", -- a remarkable word -- "for Manasseh was the firstborn"; as if Jacob were to say to Joseph, I am perfectly aware, Joseph, of what I am doing. Then it says, "And he blessed Joseph", so that Joseph himself is now brought into it; and he said, "The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God that shepherded me all my life long to this day, the Angel that redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads" Genesis 48:15. But it is implied that he is blessing Joseph too. "And let my name be named upon them" -- I think we are coming to John 17 now -- "let my name be named upon them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the land!" Genesis 48:16. I think we might rest there for a moment.

J.R.H. What is your thought as to the end of verse 19, the special portion of Ephraim, that he will be greater than his brother and his seed will become the fulness of nations? Is there any connection with Romans 11 there?

J.T. Let us see; we will read on from verse 17: "When Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand on the head of Ephraim, it was evil in his eyes" Genesis 48:17. Think of that, that Joseph should have an evil thought in the presence of his father! "It was evil in his eyes; and he took hold of his father's hand to remove it from Ephraim's head to Manasseh's head", a violent action, it is nothing less than that, nothing less that we may be doing. That is, he would change the divine will, you might say; that is the way man's mind may work if he gives way to it, "And

Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father, for this is the firstborn" -- as if Jacob did not know -- "put thy right hand on his head" Genesis 48:18. See the language of Joseph! Perhaps I am enlarging too much on this, but it only shows how a great man spiritually may err and have to be corrected. "But his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know" Genesis 48:19. That is beautiful, but a withering rebuke to his son; I know it, my son, "he also will become a people, and he also will be great; but truly his younger brother will be greater than he; and his seed will become the fulness of nations. And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee will Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and Manasseh! And he set Ephraim before Manasseh" Genesis 48:19,20. Well now, someone was asking about verse 19.

J.R.H. I was asking as to your thought about Ephraim's seed becoming the fulness of nations.

J..T. Well, at the moment we are dealing with purely spiritual things, not with nations or with prophetic facts, but with spiritual things; and we are dealing now with what any one of us may be doing or attempting to do to interfere with the work of God. On the other hand we are endeavouring to show that the positive thought for us is to be with God in His work, to see what He is doing and be with Him in it, because the time is short; there is not much time left, but the assembly has to be finished and God is saying that He is going to finish it, and we want to be with Him in the finishing. So that it is a question at the moment of spiritual thoughts and spiritual thoughts only, because we are dealing with spiritual people, those who form the assembly.

J.McK. Is it not beautiful to see the greatness of Jacob here as you have been stressing it in relation to the end of the dispensation; the power and dignity in which he carries this matter out in contrast to

Isaac, of whom it says that he trembled with exceeding great trembling?

J.T. Yes, Isaac makes a very poor showing in the latter part of his life, but Jacob makes a very great showing in the latter part of his; and that is a comforting thing, for we are in the latter part of things and it is a time for a great showing to be made, as we have God with us in what is being done. Let us all be in it, not like Isaac, but like Jacob in his old age and, as he knows, about to die.

P.L. Have we something like this in John 4, the Lord securing a worshipper for the Father, and then speaking of finishing His work, and bringing the disciples into the matter with Him? You were connecting the great thoughts of worship and the service of God with the finishing of the work.

J.T. Just so, very good.

E.A.L. Would you say that Jacob was a greater man than Isaac because he came through the conflict and survived: he triumphed in it?

J.T. Yes; God took him up, and although there was great sorrow in his life, and there were great things to be humbled about, yet he went through. It is very encouraging as to the matter of recovery; it emphasises that we are to pay attention to what may be existent in the person who has gone astray. If we know that there has been something real, it is for us to build on it and count on God to come in to finish it, because God is going to finish His work, and we all want to be in it.

C.H.H. Is Jacob in verse 16 connecting the Holy Spirit with his being delivered by the Angel? The word 'Angel' has a capital, as also in Exodus and Numbers.

J.T. It alludes representatively to a divine Person I would think, showing what a sense Jacob has at this particular time of being helped and delivered and brought right through.

L.E.S. In Philadelphia it would be the fulness of the thing at the end in contrast to Sardis, would it not? I was thinking of the filling out of the whole position as to the service of God with not one spiritual idea lacking; and filled out in the power and presence and activity and liberty of the Spirit of God; every matter that has been brought in in relation to the ministry finding its place livingly amongst us and responsively to the pleasure and service and worship of divine Persons.

J.T. It is a question there really of seeing the place the assembly has in the Lord's mind and what He is going to do, how He is going to keep her and how she is not to come into the tribulation: "I also will keep thee out of the hour of trial, which is about to come upon the whole habitable world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" Revelation 3:10. That is the promise for us at this present time.

R.W.S. Would it seem in view of verse 22 that Joseph is immediately recovered?

J.T. I would say so, and in view of the next chapter and of the end of the book. How beautifully he is seen all through! It says in verse 22, "And I have given to thee one tract of land above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow" Genesis 48:22. Whatever that is, it is evidently a very precious thing that Jacob can speak about in his dying moments. It is a military matter, something that he did, and he had Joseph in his mind.

S.McC. Should it not affect us now to think of what has been taken out of the hand of the enemy, the Amorite, as it were, and especially in regard to the service of God?

J.T. Quite so; it is what is being done at this very minute. The question is, Are we in it? It is a military matter now; Jacob is minded to speak about it at the close of his life, and he had Joseph

in mind; Joseph is exalted in his mind, and he had one portion above the others. Jacob says, "I have given to thee one tract of land above thy brethren, which I took out of the hand of the Amorite with my sword and with my bow". It is the time of the sword and the bow, so to speak, and of securing the things that belong to us.

DIVINE PERSONS AND OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEM (1)

Romans 8:14 - 17; John 20:16 - 18

J.T. What is in mind is the names by which divine Persons are known and the relationships with Them in which we are set. The Father is the first in mind, as we should expect. Then we might consider children of God, children of Christ, sons of God and brethren of Christ. In speaking of the Father first we thought of touching on Romans -- for that is the apostolic epistle peculiarly -- to see how the Father is presented in that epistle. In looking into the subject of the fatherhood of God we learn that we are to call Him Father, the Spirit leading us to do so; and it is thought the gospel of Matthew should be under consideration as to the use of this name of Father, the idea of heaven or heavenliness preceding it in that gospel. The brethren will all remember what is called 'The Lord's prayer', commencing, "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done" Matthew 6:9,10, and so forth; and how in Luke, referring to the same incident undoubtedly, the writer uses just the word "Father". When we come to the apostolic epistles, Romans particularly, we have the word doubled: "Abba, Father", the spirit of adoption entering into that, bringing in Christianity and the fulness of it. We might have pursued the subject in Ephesians but the thought is to keep to Romans, that being the authoritative epistle; and Matthew being authoritative in the truth leading up to the assembly itself and what introduces into the assembly, with the distinction between the "heavenly Father" and "our Father which art in heaven". We might seek to understand why it should be so in Matthew. In the so-called systems around us this form of address is used much, but the question is how intelligently it

is used. It seems as if Matthew in chapters 5 and 6, especially chapter 5, is much in the sense of authoritative teaching, which is introduced by the Lord undoubtedly, to precede the introduction of christianity, what belonged to the old dispensation being fully carried down in the teaching so that not one jot or tittle of the law should be passed over. It is to be cherished and kept in its fulness.

A.R. What you say about the law is very important, for Matthew 5:18 says, "Verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass". That is going back to Exodus, is it not?

J.T. Quite so, as if the whole area of Scripture is in mind, what God has said and how it has taken the form of Scripture; written by Moses, of course, but still Scripture. Genesis asserts the activities of the Spirit at the very outset as if the Spirit was waiting and ready to speak, to say things, to name things; and Matthew would suggest to us that in taking on Genesis we shall find that the assembly is contained there for us. So the Lord in Matthew 16:13 says to the disciples, "Who do men say that I the Son of man am?" and Peter brings out the Father's revelation, that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. We have indications therefore of what was in mind in Matthew leading up to the truth of christianity, as the Lord says, "On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it" Matthew 16:18. So there is something here that is invulnerable for the truth to be developed in, and Peter himself is brought into it: "Thou art Peter", the Lord says, "and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it" Matthew 16:18.

R.W.S. Does not the word in Matthew 5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect", really involve christianity?

J.T. It is the passage that lends its full character to what we have been saying, and the disciples were to have the idea of the Father and the Father's character as at the end of that chapter; for it is a great legislative chapter and things are to be understood on the principle of legislation. The truth is laid down on that principle, and so it says, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" Matthew 5:48. So the saints at the beginning were to learn perfection on the earthly side, "as your heavenly Father is perfect". It is a question of the character of God as the Father, the heavenly Father, not yet 'in heaven', but 'heavenly'.

A.N.W. The Lord saying, "My Father and your Father" in John 20:17 elevates the matter to the highest level.

J.T. I think that is good. The Lord is saying to Mary (selecting a sister to communicate these things to the brethren, and I think the fact that she is selected would touch the sisters here), "Go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father" John 20:17. But then He had already said to her, "I have not yet ascended to my Father" John 20:17, as though she should learn how and where to touch Him. So He says, "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God" John 20:17.

JoshuaP. You spoke of the heavenly legislation in Matthew 5. Is the understanding of that to help us in relation to the Father so that we may not need much of the world's legislation?

J.T. I think so; and we are to learn things from the lips of the Lord's own messenger. So Mary is selected, and the preliminary thought as to it is, "I have not yet ascended to my Father" John 20:17. That is in John. But Matthew would say we do not need to wait for that, it is a question of what is earthly first.

God began with that: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep" Genesis 1:1,2. God began with that; He said, "Let there be light. And there was light" Genesis 1:3. That is to say things began to exist by the actual speaking of God.

P.L. In Matthew 5:2 it says: "having opened his mouth, he taught them, saying …" Is that what is immediately brought near?

J.T. He went up to the mountain to do it; in Luke it is from the level of the plain.

F.W. Is not the standard a very high one? "Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven"? Matthew 6:10. The heavenly kingdom would appear to be subject.

J.T. Just so. It is the earth brought into it, whereas when we come to Ephesians everything is in the heavenlies and therefore we have words suitable to the assembly of God. But we have to begin with Matthew. We learn from the Lord how He names things; He went up to do so, but it is in relation to things down here, whereas in Ephesians it is not that, it is in relation to what is up there.

L.K. Does the apostle embrace both thoughts in Ephesians 3:14,15, "The Father … of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named"?

J.T. Yes; but the first of Genesis implies not only persons but things; so that the Spirit of God in brooding over the face of the waters was there to do things and to say them, not only as to men, but as to things that God has made.

A.S.B. It says in Matthew 5:16, "Let your light thus shine before men, so that they may see your upright works, and glorify your Father who is in the heavens".

J.T. That is what the Lord had in mind. So He went up to say things, and they went up to Him. It was to say things from that point; the Lord was referring to the earth because that is what God began

with. Even what is said about heaven has regard to persons and things on the earth; it is a question of what is on the earth, what God had made. He made man in His image, after His likeness, and said as to them, "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea" Genesis 1:26. The dominion was on the earth. Then there is the making of the sun and the moon and the heavenly bodies, but all in relation to the earth.

A.B.P. You linked the creation with the speaking of God. Is the assembly connected with the idea of speaking also?

J.T. I think so; it is seen in what Moses made; he built the tabernacle and the idea of the tabernacle was a place for speaking. "The tabernacle of God is with men" Revelation 21:3. So what the Holy Spirit had in mind was a place of speaking, but speaking as to order and such matters down here.

S.J.H. As to the legislation you speak of in regard to the earth and the name Father, would that imply family feelings, God always having families in mind?

J.T. God did not begin with the name Father. It was Elohim and then Jehovah Elohim, a combination phrase meaning God in relation to men. It is not a question of man just yet, but of God in relation to him. I mean to say, in these names that you get in Genesis you do not get the Father, and not even Jehovah in the first chapter, not until the second chapter, for it is a question of God in relation to men in Adam and Eve. But when we come to Matthew we have to name things in view of the assembly. Everything now must take on that idea from the start and work up from the beginning, so that as we proceed we may know what to say and how to name things.

J.S. In Exodus the Holy Spirit brings in the thought of the tabernacle.

J.T. What Jehovah wanted particularly to do was to say things; and so in Numbers Moses would speak to Him but Jehovah spoke to him; He intervened and spoke to Moses instead of letting Moses speak to Him. So from that time onward it is what the Lord commanded Moses. It is a question of authority.

J.H. Are they beginning at this point in Acts 4:24? "Thou art the God who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them; who hast said by the mouth of thy servant David". Would that come into this?

J.T. It would; however, it is David, not Moses. It is what David would say. God makes a selection as to His ancient servants and educates them, having in mind what was before them and how they should come up to the truth. And now it is a question of our coming up to the truth, knowing what to say and how to say it when necessary.

A.R. So the Lord in incorporating Moses' remarks intended that we should incorporate them too, did He not? Matthew 5:19 says, "Whosoever then shall do away with one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whosoever shall practise and teach them, he shall he called great in the kingdom of the heavens". Does not that go back to Exodus?

J.T. It refers to ancient things, for God was before all things. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1. He is before everything. He gives names to things, but then He gives names through persons who know what they are saying; so that Moses and David come into that. And now in Matthew we have the great genealogy, forty-two generations, and God has such people in mind. They have a great place with Him; they are not ordinary people; they belong to the generations of Jesus

Christ which is the point in Matthew, and that makes way for the gospels; and then the epistles make way for the Spirit.

A.B.P. Do we come into things through speaking, first of all confessing our sins, then confessing Jesus as Lord, and then as we have it in our chapter, crying, "Abba, Father"?

J.T. We get to know how to name things. How did Paul think of writing down, "Abba, Father"? The Lord had used that expression. So that in result we begin with divine Persons, whether it be the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. We learn from Them, so that things are carried on from that source.

A.H.B. Is that why Paul in speaking to the Corinthians says, "There are those called gods … yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things"? 1 Corinthians 8:5,6.

J.T. That is right, "one God, the Father … and one Lord, Jesus Christ". It does not mention the Spirit, but the Spirit is in mind too. That is, all the divine Persons are in mind. So the Corinthians were put right, for they needed to be put right authoritatively. It was not so much the Spirit who was brought forward, although He comes in too later; but that particular chapter deals with the Father and the Son -- one Lord, Jesus Christ. That would help us as to learning, or being educated in Scripture. "If any one think he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know" 1 Corinthians 8:2, that comes in there. It is a question of what you know, and whether you know it rightly and can speak of it rightly to others.

R.W.S. While the very attractive name of Father comes in in Matthew, there is power to enforce things; so it is a rather arduous matter to go up the mountain and come to the Lord, balancing with the attractiveness of fatherhood.

J.T. So we have at the very outset in Matthew 5:1, "But seeing the crowds, he went up into the mountain, and having sat down" -- it is deliberation -- "his disciples came to him". He did not ask them to come, which indicates that they are moved by His influence. And then the Lord goes on to "Blessed are the poor in spirit", Matthew 5:3 and nine Blesseds, showing the blessedness of this new system of things that is inaugurated, all with a view to the assembly coming into it and being formed accordingly. It goes on later, "Ye are the salt of the earth; but if the salt have become insipid, wherewith shall it be salted? It is no longer fit for anything but to be cast out and to be trodden under foot by men. Ye are the light of the world: a city situated on the top of a mountain cannot be hid. Nor do men light a lamp and put it under the bushel, but upon the lamp-stand, and it shines for all who are in the house. Let your light thus shine before men, so that they may see your upright works, and glorify your Father who is in the heavens" Matthew 5:13 - 16. So the Father is in mind here, and the end of the chapter says, "Be ye therefore perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" Matthew 5:48. That is to say, the Lord is beginning at the very bottom of things in relation to the Father. So the idea of perfection flows out from what the Father is and the disciples are to take on that perfection.

J.T.Jr. Would you connect the expanse in Genesis 1 with these thoughts in Matthew?

J.T. I think the word "expanse" would indicate that it is the breadth of things, so there is plenty of latitude. Then if we are to do with the face of the earth, we are to see what is there; we have vegetation and the like. We are to see what scope God has in the expanse because it is a question of His working out His thoughts and having those who can convey them.

J.T.Jr. As to the lights set in the expanse, Christ is here on the mountain and the city is also referred to in the section you read. Is that like the two great lights?

J.T. So "God said, Let there be light. And there was light" Genesis 1:3. That is to say, God saw to it that there was light. Then subsequently, as you say, "God made the two great lights" Genesis 1:16. Whenever a thing is said by God, what He speaks of is there.

J.K.P. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God" Romans 8:14. Is there a suggestion in that of the subservient place the Spirit has taken to develop the thought of fatherhood from the apostolic side?

J.T. I think so. Some have made much of it that the apostolic epistles do not say anything of the Spirit being spoken to, but rather of the Spirit speaking: but then, the Old Testament indicates that the Spirit is spoken to. The Holy Spirit is here to bring us into God's thoughts. He was there in almost the first verse of Scripture, brooding over the face of the waters, ready to act, ready to speak. And then we come to Romans and we find men are led by Him. The Old Testament makes provision for the Holy Spirit to be spoken to; He was ready to speak in Genesis 1, but then He is also ready to be spoken to. Rebecca speaks to the servant (whom we know represents the Spirit), and others speak to Him. That opens a wide door to us and the Lord is opening our understanding that we might be able to speak of the Spirit in that sense, and speak rightly of Him. So the word here in Romans 8:14 is, "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God". The sons of God are seen as being led by the Spirit.

P.L. So in Numbers 21, from which point onwards the leading of the Spirit is evident, the addressing of the Spirit in song is alluded to.

J.T. Very beautiful. It is touching, such a matter being introduced so early. Typically, they sang to the Spirit, but then Moses had to do with it. It is at the word of the lawgiver.

A.R. So as Rebecca has to do with the servant she says, "Drink, my lord!" Genesis 24:18 That verse has been linked up with 2 Corinthians 3:17, has it not? "The Lord is the Spirit, but where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". Rebecca typically recognised the Spirit as an object. I wonder if our difficulties do not lie in our needing to recognise the Spirit here objectively as well as subjectively?

A.N.W. That word "sing" involves that He had already expressed Himself and now there is an up-springing response to Him. The note gives 'respond' as a synonym.

J.T. That passage in Numbers 21 has to be studied as to what the Spirit was saying, and particularly now that He is saying, "Sing ye unto it". "Spring up, O well"; that is the Spirit Himself typically. What we are saying about the word of the lawgiver comes into Matthew, for that is the great difficulty with us, that we are not subject to law. So Paul says, "If any one thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him recognise the things that I write to you, that it is the Lord's commandment", 1 Corinthians 14:37. It is a question of what you know, and whether you know it rightly and can convey it rightly.

J.T.Jr. In relation to conditions where a brother might be angry with another and need to be reconciled, I suppose we need to name that word too: it is, "Be reconciled" (Matthew 5:24).

J.T. There is a solemn word too in Matthew 5:22, "But I say unto you, that every one that is lightly angry with his brother shall be subject to the judgment; but whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca", -- meaning 'stupid' or 'worthless'; this would

show we must have respect for the brethren even though they are young ones -- "shall be subject to be called before the sanhedrim; but whosoever shall say. Fool, shall be subject to the penalty of the hell of fire". The judgment of God, how imminent it is -- and how terrible according to Revelation!

P.L. Would this attempt to discredit the brethren interfere with their dignity assemblywise as "two of you"?

J.T. You may be sure the assembly will be discredited if the persons who form it are discredited. So the woman of Samaria said, "Sir" to the Lord, and others do too.

P.L. Would an example of that be the great name of dignity He gives to Peter?

J.T. Quite so, "Thou art Peter" Matthew 16:18; that is to say he is a man that could be relied upon, a steady person.

A.S.B. Is it not solemn that if such a thing as disrespect of the brethren is allowed by us the service of God is hindered?

J.T. If the brethren are not respected the service of God will be sure to be hindered, for they are the ones that are to serve Him according to the divine order, and we come and sit down together with a view to it. The Lord's day has pre-eminently in mind the divine service. The Lord is said to have been raised by the glory of the Father, and that was on the first day of the week.

A.S.B. We should be very sensitive as to our relations with one another so that we should not hinder the service of God.

J.T. As we think of the so-called service of God around us, think of the hideous things that are being done, professedly in the celebration of the Lord's supper. Hence the importance of knowing what to say and how to name things that would lower the level of the Lord's supper.

A.B.P. In regard to creation, "He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast" Psalm 33:9. We have the stress laid on the authoritative ministry in order that things might be held fast.

J.T. Very good, so that they are not movable. There are things that are movable but there are things that are not movable. For instance, in Solomon's reign things were stable, they were set up in Zion -- Zion being a fixed position, while formerly the tabernacle was in the wilderness. So we can see that we are transferred in our thoughts from what is movable to what is immovable.

P.L. So the authoritative ministry is suggested in the scripture that "The words of the wise are as goads, and the collections of them as nails fastened in: they are given from one shepherd", Ecclesiastes 12:11.